8 Episode results for "David Shoemakers"
Trumps European Vacation, Bidens Plagiarism, and Duncan Hunter | The Press Box
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Well, no ages, too old you. It's always great to spend time with your family. And if you can do it on a lovely trip that all the better, but they're did seem to be there is just a weird Ovide, that's inherently odd and it special specific to the American presidency. And I guess, in some ways, the British monarchy where you're always, like, like the big baby son, like my like someone's large baby son, until I mean, as long as they're like, you know, president that you go along kind of at the grace of your father, Donald Trump, who is invited you on this. It's like did Donald Trump? And he does you saw them standing there in their little tuxedos or whatever the whole fan all the kids sitting across, and you do imagine Don Trump, like I don't know if you'd call his kids, but like dictating a memo to his kids saying, great news, I've got a I've got a Chateau or a got a palace rented for us in London. I be happy to cover airfare. Just let me know if you can make it, you know, I mean with. Like an Airbnb link just to kind of Tyson, become alone. Yeah. Exactly. Here's some pictures of, of the view on of Big Ben from the window, or whatever this is like the reverse right? Because your parents are usually begging their adult children to come with them on a vacation, you could tell they were really wanted isn't going to be that bad. Yeah. But this in this case, the kids, the kids at elites themselves on they wouldn't they wouldn't have given it up for the world. He appearance offer is usually like it's a really great beachfront property. There's not gonna be any WI fi. I'm not sure if that matters, see you, but, you know, and we have to be any if you come you have to stay the whole week. You know, next thing we are the poop cruise of media podcast. This is the press box a part of the ringer podcast network. L O media, consumers, Bryan Curtis. David shoemaker of the ringer here on your twice weekly press box podcasts David, I'm still not used to it. Lots of great stuff to get to on today's show, including Joe Biden cereal, plagiarism, barstool sports, and Duncan Hunter, a new job for America's favourite Canadian the overworked Twitter, joke of the week and much more of a back to Trump in London. David when some people travel, they make time for lying on the beach. Trump makes time for gas lighting, you know, he'd reserves put aside and afternoon this, I think was the first example when he was speaking to British reporters in the Oval Office actually before he left Trump said this about Meghan Markle now, Meghan news now. The duchess of Sussex a different name. She can't make she's got maternity. Leave a certain see because she wasn't too nice about you during the campaign at didn't if you saw that I, I didn't know that now. No, I hope she's ok. I did not know that she such a move to Canada. If you go to lighted Tanaka move to Britain. A lot of people moving here. So what can I say? No, I didn't know that. She was nasty. So that story was dated June one, and then on June. Second Trump tweeted, I never called Megan Markle, nasty made up by fake news media, and they got caught cold. We'll see New York Times and others apologize doubt it. Trump has earned no benefit of the doubt on any of these questions. And he is obviously lying here. But is is it a little weird that the British reporter kind of teed up? And then, you know, getting understand like if I if somebody said, you know, David shoemakers been running, you down all over the ringer office. And I said, I had no idea David was being nasty about me, and then somebody said, did you call David nasty and being well kinda? Yeah. No Guyana no-no. Somebody got goaded me into it. No, this is this. This is a weird moment. It's caused me to slightly various slightly reevaluate the, the entire litany of Trump's public lies. Like, in wonder how many of them are actually just total sit like mealy mouth cement semantic issues because he wasn't. I mean he really like it's not that far from the tree. I don't think it's stretching the truth too far even though like you said, he's he gets no benefit of the doubt. But it's not searching the truth too far to be like, no, you just said, I didn't know she was nasty is, is could flip pretty clearly be construed as in being like I didn't know she said a nasty thing now, whether or not you should have said that. And whether or not it's just like idiotically myopic, not just to beat not just to cut to answer any question about her with, like, how great, it is that there's an American Princess and whatever you know what a great metaphor for our relationship or something. But I don't think that it's a straightforward read to say that he was saying, Meghan Markle is a nasty person based on the audio these trips are largely about, you know, diplomatic hand, holding we're, we're having no great policy is going to be made with Trump in the UK. And I think at the end of the day, it's about images right in the least in terms of the media. We're curious and with Trump, we're like ten thousand times more curious about what this is going to look like E N. We wanna see Trump squeezed into a tuxedo with the hunched over Queen walking next it, we want to see what that looks like. And by the way, it's incredible. We want to see what it looks like when Jared Nevada are in a high room of Buckingham Palace staring out the window. Just what, what would that look like? And by where we're going to return to that in, in a bid here in the ovoid Twitter joke. So, I think it was on the one hand is this trip was about images on the other hand, it was about fact checking because Trump was there for three days and just an incredible number of things happen, believe in his press conference with Theresa May prime minister of the UK. He said, we are your largest partner, you're our largest partner. He's talking about trade. A lot of people don't know that I was surprised. Amid that statement yesterday. And a lot of people said, gee, I didn't know that they may have said that they didn't know that because that is actually not true. You k is not our largest partner. China is you case as many factors pointed out in that same presser with Theresa May. Trump also said this about the protests. There were raging in London, as far as the protests, I have to tell you because I commented on it yesterday. We left the prime minister the Queen the Royal family, there were thousands of people on the streets cheering and even coming over today, that with thousands of people cheering, and then I heard that they would protest. I said, where are the protest? I don't see any protests. I did see a small protest today when I came very small. So a lot of it is fake news. I hate to say, but you saw the, the people waving the American flag waving your flag was tremendous spirit and love that was great love. It was an alliance and I didn't see the protests are just a little while ago and it was a very, very small group. Of people put in for political reasons. So it was fakeness. Thank you. So much there, by the way, it was an it's an alliance. A love that. Yes, yes. We do have an alliance with the Brits. And number two is Trump searching for the words Union Jack there when he saying your flag is a flag. That, that's what I was thinking panic, flashing across the Montecristo, where tens of thousands of protesters in the UK. Some of whom had the Trump baby balloon flying overhead by the great moments in death Wikipedia pros. The balloon depicts Trump as an angry orange baby holding a smartphone. Official description. Thank you went to pedia. Yeah. That's funny. I enjoyed this, David. There's a lot of times when you have a diplomatic trip, there's a big negotiation about the venue because it's important for the pictures. Right. Trump was meeting after his trip time in the UK with Irish prime Minister, Leo Vaud car o. And according to the job in LA buyer, Trump wanted to have the meeting at one of his golf courses as one does as one does. It's nice ad for the golf course the PM was not into that and countered with the suggestion, they should do it at an ancient Irish castle who? Yeah, there's some romance to that. Yeah. Kind of nice little BBC weekly kind of vibe, their weekly Shokhin vibe, the compromise. Lamar reports was the VIP lounge at Shannon airport just down the hallway from the food court. No, no. Yeah. That's a little less romance in that option. So if this becomes a huge moment in the annals of American diplomacy do we think these will be known as the borrow accords would what name wouldn't name can, we give them the airport stand by the Chili's to accord? What are the what Chili's to packed? I like that. That's fantastic. What are what are the ones that are only exist? Are there any that only exists in airports anymore, or they all chains at this point if you're flying JetBlue JFK? There's the cheeseburger, cheeseburger packed Batelco for that. How about how about the bookstore that looks pretty good, but doesn't actually have anything I wanna buy courts. It's just like a po- is just like a like a like a an optical illusion. It's like a poster that looks like it looks like a stack of books would really, you just think you go to grab it and knocks it over, and it's just like seventy five copies of self magazine on the day will bind Hudson, fake news. Oh. As I said, so three days in the UK and an amazing amount of Trump content. The New York Times called it his split screen persona on the one hand. He is, you know, doing all this pomp and circumstance with the Queen and on the other hand, he is just, you know, firing off like Scarface against his opponents got into it. London. Mayor city con refuse to meet with labor leader. Jeremy Corbyn called for a boycott of AT, and T because he was watching CNN coverage while he was traveling, according to the Washington Post, I guess, Fox News, maybe was not coming through another amazing moment. He tweeted about Bette midler, whom he called a washed up, psycho, quote unquote. Wow. I'm stealing. I'm stealing this from someone on Twitter. I am Joe Biden doing this and I and I'm not on purpose because I just forget who said it but, you know, there, there was a a an objection raise that Trump was tweeting about Bette midler in the middle of the night. And somebody on Twitter who I will promise I will credit. Next week said, what is the proper time of day for the American president to be feuding at Miller on Twitter? Yeah, I think there's a lot of this trip. I mean part of our obsession with it is, well, I mean, we as Americans are obsessed with, you know, the British monarchy in with the UK of germ number of reasons that we don't need to execute totally here. But we're, I think we're particularly interested in Trump going there, and even more. So time for the entire Trump clan going there in the sort of, like, you know, national Lampoon's vacation aspect of the whole thing. And just seeing this, you know, in saying just because there's, you know, when, when Donald I mean, when, when Brock Obama goes to England, even when George W Bush went England, you know, the there is there was much less. There is much less. It felt like there, there is less likelihood that something would go awry or that something wacky would happen with the Trump, visit feels like anything's possible. But also feel like going back to the Meghan Markle nasty comments. And even just talking about the and the tw-. But you were just mentioning, but the entire trip I feel like it's, it's this Amana feel like I'm doing a lot of Trump apology, this time, I tell you this entire trip is just like a practice and exercise in holding holding him responsible to the, the kind of level of propriety that we know he won't adhere to is anybody going to make a big deal. The fact if he said that exact same nasty comment about any other minor American celebrity that said something about him three years ago. No, no. That wouldn't matter. But now she's married into British royalty. And so there's this might be a an issue of national politics like, I'm not. I mean, I guess that there is that there. But like again, this is not a l- like Trump has not reached some new low in the on the propriety scale or by doing that. And I think it's the same thing about tweeting when other stuff's going on or whatever wearing a misfit tuxedo. The, the, the whole thing this feels like we're not none of us are surprised by anything, if feels like an opportunity to go back to early like the best of album of our Trump Trump jokes because he's doing it in a new stage. We should we. Should ban the phrase, new low from Trump comers, just over you way way, way over overused. I totally agree with everything has just said. And I would just add did you see David Ross thing in deadspin about our fascination? This is also partly because Trump style is actually Royal style, the kind of the kind of the kind of grandiosity the velvet the kind of, you know, the kind of ridiculousness that is that is kind of the aesthetic that Trump crave. So desperately as run points out. And so when he's standing next to the Queen, and when he's when he's getting his Royal visit, he's just, he's just, he's loving that on, I'm famous than I'm being treated with respect. I think I deserve but also just on a pure like I am I'm here baby, you know, this, this is what I want. This is these are these are the red carpets that I have literally, you know, constructed in my own life. And, and I think that's fascinating to his home in a way. You know, he's he's made it if he wasn't. If he wasn't president, he would be a minor Royal, I think that's the best thing we can say at this moment. David time for the overworked Twitter, joke of the week where we celebrate a gag. That was so obvious that all of media Twitter made it at exactly the same time someone asked about our new twice weekly podcast, scheduled does this mean is now at the biweekly Twitter joke. No, it doesn't it just means that I'm even more desperate. So please send them to the at the press box pod, and thank you to everyone who did about that. Trump tour of Europe. David, and about that photo of evocative. Jared Kushner, looking out the window of Buckingham Palace with haunting thousand yard stairs. Did you see that? Oh, yeah. Very odd moment. It was an overworked Twitter joke to write the new flowers in the attic movie. Look, scary, thanks to C Brits for that one. Always nice to have V C Andrews jokes, by the way, here on the press box. More like that. In other Trump news on Tuesday, vodka tweeted on route to the Hague that was her next stop. I'm not sure we need to do the joke. But anyway, was never worked Twitter joke to right? God. I hope so fingers crossed in custody. I hope with your daddy, thanks to Matthew Benson for that one. Tweet from CNN David some sex offenders in Alabama, according to CNN would be ordered to pay for chemical castration as a condition of parole. If governor Kay Ivey approves a Bill recently passed by the state legislature. Okay. So some sex offenders may be ordered to pay for chemical castration. It was an overworked Twitter joke to say a motive silence for judge ROY Moore that was I thought a pretty good one and finally this week's winner by a landslide. It was big news Wednesday on the campaign trail. When Joe Biden's campaign said that he still supports the Hyde amendment which prohibits the use of federal funds for abortions with some exceptions. Okay. So that puts Biden at odds with a bunch of Democrats who would of course, like to get traction in the race to beat them beat him skews me, one of them being Bill de Blasios or old. Pelle. Here was de Blasios tweet when it comes to supporting American women on issues like repealing the Hyde amendment. Joe Biden is Dr Jekyll. Oh my God. Okay, one. Yes. That's a bad joke. A terrible joke. Number two, the reference is backwards because if the novel Jekyll was the kindly, doctor in Hyde was the murderous double spoiler alert, if you haven't read strange case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. Okay. So some funny, overwork Twitter jokes. I got admit I thought Jekyll was the bad guy to until I read the book at about age twelve. And finally, if de Blasios continues to own himself like this, I am on board with him running. So if you trolled build a Blasi about not knowing his, Robert Louis Stevenson, congrats. You made the overwork Twitter joke of the week. All right. David lots of stuff to get to this week department of plagiarism. If you are old, you may remember that when Joe Biden ran for president in one thousand nine hundred eight he famously lifted words from a speech by UK labour leader, Neil Kinnock, and now Biden has done it again. At least online Matic lacy is over at vox writes that Biden's climate plan contains a number of passages that seem to have been copied and pasted at times with very superficial changes from various advocacy advocacy organizations policy shops. And in one instance, of vox, article, the Washington Post met visor notes that Biden, duplicated language with an education plan on his website. And by the way, just a flashback a second, if you ever get a chance to see the side by side of the Neil Kinnock speeches in the Biden speeches from eighty eight. You really got it because Biden just took his biography, his biographical passages and just drop the name Biden in their images wholesale. It's really I mean Jonah Lehrer would have been impressed. It's, it's pretty credible. Couple of takeaways from the new Biden thing, and correct me if I'm wrong. Number one, are we on extremely safe ground now to say that the Biden presidential campaign or campaigns are just incredibly sloppy and the candidate sloppy the campaign is sloppy? We know have evidence, going back to nineteen Eighty-eight that this is true. Yeah. And the only wonder is that Trump has is calling him sleepy Joe instead of sloppy. Joe, which is actually a pun. This is almost like the most unforgivable sin. I mean is, as we see him like, just limping really poorly through his, you know, the, the first kind of controversy and his campaign with his, you know, a unwanted touching various people along the way. But this is an on a on a much more intellectual level this heels like the unforgivable sin because this is a problem that he could have fixed. Right. If you're not if you can't run a campaign effectively enough to, to at least disguise, what has long been proceed. And to be your greatest sin your biggest flaw than like how on earth, did, we expect you to be able to run a government like him, borrowing from Neil Kinnock is not a problem like this is not a life changing for this is not even a problem. Nearly on the scale with his you know with with accusations that have been made made against him on the campaign trail in public appearances and stuff. But from just from, from, from a just like I said, an intellectual point of view. It's really hard to get past. This is the biggest knock on you. Like you've gotta be you have to like, if you don't go in saying, there will be no no whiff of plagiarism anywhere involved in this campaign. And if there is the person responsible will be frogmarch out of the campaign headquarters at that moment, you know, like, if you're not dealing with it without a level of seriousness than, like, how are you running everything else? Yeah, I, I agree. It's not the plagiarism itself, right? Joe Biden, not a journalist and a glazing obviously didn't have anything to do with this. I mean, this is not like the like whatever like the idea sheets on your campaign. Website. I mean that's just like some functionary doing that. But they can't have this problem. Yeah. Glaciers notes that policy shops, and advocacy groups, actually wants you to adopt their ideas like the dream is for to adopt their ideas. And if they get the use of specific language, all the better. It's just it's a it's a kind of a problem of footnotes there, and Joe Biden is John journalist etcetera etcetera. But you're right. It keeps happening. Nothing about his camp, nothing, but his relatively small and relatively new campaign has been smooth. And you know, why isn't why don't we look at this and think a Joe Biden presidency would be, you know, lots of small fires happening every day. I get, you know, it just I mean, you know, the, the, the Trump campaign showed that the Trump was a pretty good preview of the Trump presidency in terms of functionality. Right. It was not. I mean, it's that was that was a controversy a day, a crazy. Thing, a day people who aren't qualified running it, and thus the Trump presidency. But the Biden, the Biden thing seems like in very different terms to be a pretty effective preview in the same way. Yeah. I think so. I think so I think that I think that a lot of liberals would find it hard to go back through all the Knox they've met head against the Trump White House and the Trump campaign before and not be able to relate some of those critiques to with Biden is going through right now the official response from his campaign to the first set of plagiarism charges was voters know Joe Biden, and I feel that, that is going to be the ultimate talisman that they hold up whenever he does something like this voters. No, this man, they know they know Joe Biden E L, there may be plagiarism on his website, but they know Joe Biden, he may he may miss speak. He may, you know, be having a really limited schedule. He may be doing this. He may be well to the right of a lot of his opponents voters know Joe, bud. That is the whole cell of this campaign. There is nothing. There are some essence some no ability about Joe Biden, that literally nothing you see. Can possibly distract from? That's the bet they're making it really is. And we will see how that holds up. Yeah. I mean, I think that's one of the I mean, it's we're talking about no ability. This is the most like unknowable thing possible. I mean, I guess there's some echoes to the proclamations were making about the Trump campaign and that which which bore out to be true, right? That he was speaking to a swath of American voter voting public. That would had not been spoken to directly before it cetera. Like I said, a lot of that sector. Nets be right. I think that voters know Joe Biden. I think that there's probably the end of the day, a lot of truth to that. But in and I think that certainly in so much as people know, him, they probably know him, they probably reflect positively on them more so than, you know, when you there's not a lot of people, I take the number of people who when they think about Joe Biden. Think about plagiarism it takes relatively low, but, you know, Biden's also bite in a lotta ways is also the sort of establish when one of the establishment. Six if not the establishment pick. And if this kind of stuff drags him down in like the MS NBC primary, then it's going to have a real effect on his campaign. I've got a note here, David that says barstool sports and possible war crimes. We've, we've finally arrived, we all knew that day was coming. You should never have named yourself L presidents aid. Last week over at the barstool military podcast zero blog thirty could go by the way could have been the strain pun contest. Congressman Duncan Hunter, who's from the San Diego area was interviewed by the hosts who are known as chaps and bursts tool. Kate. They were discussing special operations chief Edward Gallagher who is facing a court martial for stabbing to death a allegedly stabbing another young Islam estate fighter who had been captured among other charges Duncan Hunter, the congressman had defended Gallagher and said that he would encourage Trump to pardon Gallagher Gallagher winds up being convicted, let's listen to a little bit of that discussion. Even if everything that the prosecutors say is true in this case, then, you know, Eddie Gallagher's should still be given a break, I think even these saying, even if he did, like take a knife to the threat of the fighter even though that goes against our role join there, and I don't think I think the thing saying this is not part of the. And I think this, this guy was going to die anyway, because I've seen the video once again, so then even if you're saying like you don't care that I win though that goes against I support him. Yeah. Well, I just feel like. It's such a slippery slope, and it goes against our honors. So agreed ously if that is the case, maybe it is, or isn't, but I don't know. I just have a hard time, do George Moose while I was an artillery officer, and we've fired hundreds of rounds and Volusia, right? Joel probably hundreds of civilians, if not scores, if not hundreds of civilians, probably killed women and children, if there were any left in the city when we invaded. So do I get judged, too. Wow. Yeah. That was that's quite an interview, by the way. And, and I think having listened to it and then listen to the discussion that the two hosts have had afterward. A really remarkable interview, I think the sort of gotten mischaracterized on Twitter that. Yeah. Did you know that hunter was? You know, sort of casually admitting to doing too bad axe in Iraq. And that somehow because of the very well earned reputation of the barstool universe at the hosts were like chuckling, along with them or something like that. In fact, they were pushing back and in the in the kind of post interview discussion chaps, who is one of the host came on and said, you know, thinking about it that, in fact, maybe there really shouldn't be a difference between what Gallagher is charged with which is killing someone who is in custody and firing indiscriminately into a civilian population, which Duncan, hunter's seems to be admitting that he did you know that these are all, you know, we can we can judge them on their own various moral scale. But these are all bad axe. Yeah, I just thought this was a fascinating interview and encourage people to listen to the whole thing. But it it is it is so interesting. Both of the host of the podcast, our veterans, so they have interesting footing to come at this and footing. Which you? Is really about holding the military to certain ideals and not an and again, it's just it's remarkable that this would be a, a score for anyone from the New York Times on down to have a congressman saying that bluntly, even if he killed someone in cold blood. Yeah. I support this guy. Yeah. I mean I think that I mean obviously, it's a very personal thing from it for him. And, and maybe it would have been a little bit easier for wonder wrap when minds around if he had come to it. At that from the very beginning saying, I have a very personal experience with with this situation, and I come to it on a personal level, but from a Leo from a legal point of view. And as a sitting congressman in a one would hope it who, who is, who is involved who's made himself a, you know, a part of the story, one would hope that they'd be a little bit more be able to be a little bit more circumspect. But really, I mean this is the same. This is the same thing, as I mean, if it's similar in a lot of ways to the torture debates of the George W Bush administration, which where people. To use the twenty the show twenty four as an example, why torture should be legal without calling in with without actually just wrestling with the most like light up a joint and talk about your philosophy one. Oh, one class sort of aspect to it. Which is like, yes. No, it should be illegal. And if you do something like this on a twenty four type time of national emergency, you will be pardoned or you will be you will not be sent to jail for your crime, and this, and I feel like that's kind of what he's wrestling with here that he's just like, like, yeah. If someone like these things need to be illegal, people should soldiers should be tried for these things. If there is a if there's a justification or if there's a rationale if there's mitigating circumstances, even up to, including PTSD, then yeah. There's like those could be mitigating circumstances. When it comes to comes to the penalty, but he's just too close to this. And I think that, that he's. Not doing him. Not doing any not. I mean not doing Edward Gallagher any good service by aligning himself with it. But maybe is knows yeah. There was also stories about Trump Trump head, you know, stated that he was interested in pardons for several for several of these military members who were accused of work crimes now apparently heard so much blowback to that even among his staff that he stepped back from the brink. Andrew anyway. Interesting interview, and I highly recommended think both of us saw the first episode of the new New York Times television show. The weekly the daily is the podcast. The weekly is a show that debuted Sunday night over on FX. What did you think of it? I thought it was good. I thought it was thought it had a, you know, a lot of the what was the other show. What was the other inside the New York Times show that was on Showtime, or whatever that'd be the fourth estate, the fourth estate? It had a lot of the, this sort of melancholy move. The state very good word. Yes. I mean obviously the point here was not. I mean, the fourth estate was a lot of trying to press for de the principles of journalism, the, the, the legacy of the institution of journalism, and this was more just telling a story. I mean, in a very I don't, I don't think that I don't know the comparing it to vice news, does it any service or whatever. But that's I'm sure the reference that most people will most listeners will will understand it was a single subject. That was not purporting itself to be the story of the week. It was just sort of a deep dive into a story that was being reported untold story, the ran last November in the pan. And I think that there's a lot of value. I mean I thought I thought I was I was compelled by honestly, it was, you know, maybe more southern vice news, maybe the point of comparison is just like it felt like a good podcast. Stylistically to me it fell somewhere between vice in an air Morris documentary. Yeah. Because it was just it was just that does that kind of feel melancholy is exactly right. Because both the fourth estate in this had the sense that the times is operating in this treacherous uncertain world reporters in real life smile, by the way on shows. They never smile. They're always very serious about their work, people, people even I've seen reporters smile, and make bad jokes when they're reporting a serious story, it really happens. But in this city to reporters, Eric L Greene, and Katie Benner, who are investigating. We should set this up a school in Louisiana that had a remarkable record of sending African American students and other students to elite universities. They go in and show what is already happened. And those kinds of things I think I find what is what is so compelling to me about this. And maybe this is just you. And I but when they showed the reporting process itself, so they're. Couple of moments in this, they give the guy who runs the school a chance to respond. In fact, they say now it's time to give them a chance to respond and, you know, we see them calling up and when they call him up he actually volunteers a battery allegation against a student at the reporters hadn't heard about. They had one allegation, but he gives them another. And then they go back and look at the police reports and an amazing instance of a subject sort of fessing up to something that you didn't even ask them about. Yeah. There's also then he brings them down to Louisiana into this room. And there's all the kind of students, and he's kind of obviously, you know, his, his success stories are all around, and, you know, he's sort of using it as a chance to charm them. And think, okay, they'll show them the students and they'll and they'll be convinced or at least mitigate the story a little bit. And then one of the things they found out that this guy did was make all the students kneel on the ground ask who, who around here is kneeled, and like all the hands go up or most of the hands go up those parts to me. It's kinda like the part of a sixty minutes piece where you see Steve Kroft waiting outside the, the insurance office for the guy to come out so it can confront him on camera though. Little reportedly parts of the show. The weekly is gone all in on that, and I like that. And I think people are curious. In this day and age about how news is made and reported. And yeah, I thought that those parts were really really affected. Yeah. I thought I thought it was really. I mean, I think that the, you know, from an insider perspective, I guess it did make an interesting more of a vaguer, but, but, but compelling case for journalism. And I think there's a lot of places that when you get to the when you get to the difficult part of the reporting here, just the existential questions about whether or not you're going to do more damage than good by airing the bye, by reporting out this story in printing it, there did seem to be the sort of conviction that, like we're the New York Times, this is news. This is what we do. Right. And I think that there's many other outlets that would that would have wrestled with that question in different way, and maybe gone the other direction. And, and so I think that there is some deeper value to the way. That, you know to to the to, to the school, the field of journalism by showing those sorts of decisions being made. And, and, and I do and I think that, you know, at some point, we there will be, you know, the interesting questions for me or are kind of how the doughnuts get made kind of questions like how much of these interviews was re recorded or how much of this was, you know, presented staged for the show if any but all in all I thought it was really well done. And I thought that, you know, I think that if it continues along, this path of telling significant stories that may or may not be incredibly time sensitive. I you know, I'll be watching it from the department of new jobs, David. I saw tweet that said, one of Canada's most famous journalists is heading to CNN to cover. Trump full-time has the is the phrase world's most famous Canadian does that ever not sound insulting. But the journalist is in question as Daniel Dale, Washington correspondent of the Toronto Star who got famous cataloging Trump's lies. He tweets it he's headed to CNN to be on the truth beat dissecting dishonesty from Trump democratic candidates, and others now with the K file already at CNN do you see this being an adventure style team up or more of attention filled Batman versus superman, kind of thing with him under the same roof? Yeah, I have no idea. I mean, I think it'll probably be more like, like, like, you know, Spiderman in the vendors where they kind of they, they operate in completely different worlds, except for the team up movies. And then those team of movies are going to factor. How many factors can one have I guess is a good question during the is there. There's also this weird like expanding. Definition of fact checker player when I saw the first tweet about him, it was just the Washington Post was eagerly announcing that he was joining the fact checking department or whatever. And I was just like you mean the people who just make sure that you didn't put an error in your story, which isn't in very integral part of any news operation, don't get me wrong but not exactly like a glory post for someone who's being hired away from a from another establishment. We got a tweet here from Espy nations. Mike Prada this department of journalism and labor. Yeah. With this being the last scheduled day of bargaining the Espy nation dot com NBA team won't be providing any game three of the NBA finals at his coverage today until the vox union receives a fair contract. This was a hard decision. But securing that contract today is more important than an NBA finals game. I found the so interesting because I cannot remember or at least don't have anything in my fingertips of a journalism union action that where he refused to cover a game. And I thought that was so fascinating. I'm sure that have been citizens voted at the press box pot. If that has happened somewhere in the annals of sports writing, but just an interesting moment and interesting. We talk about how what you know, great content. The NBA is right. And essentially, this is so this is where you dig your heels in and put pressure on the boss. Yeah. I mean, I think that from a looking down on our culture level, if you want to be stoic about it, then yes, the by far, the most deeply the most interesting part of this is that the NBA playoffs have send it to the point. Where can you what, what would be the other? The what would be the other instances in all of news? That would be worthwhile. Single things to boycott to make a point. I mean like an inauguration now matter, I think it'd be more like election night or. Something like that. I think the I guess, like a, a big primary would probably be the, the equivalent may be sure okay, something important. But not absolutely critic game. Three is like the equivalent of the, you know, South Carolina primary about that. It's it is. Yeah. I think that's right. Could you? I mean it's pretty amazing. That, that the NBA playoffs have risen to the level of the South Carolina primary, especially gained three. I don't think he have. Oh, I hope that you said that game seven right of diverse points in history. But yeah, pretty interesting. And, and then you know separately. It's it is, we have not talked a lot, if, if it all on this show about the sort of groundswell of unionization efforts in New York, especially journalistic, journalistic houses and, and. You know, it's, it's a it's a really important conversation. And it's something that, that, you know, kudos to the folks, vox and Espy nation for taking this on and for taking this seriously. And it'll be. It's you know, a lot of a lot of liberal. I mean, mostly or not mostly, but largely liberal writers, editors of sort of thrown their hats in with the VC corporate world had to give them platforms to make these wonderful new media enterprises. And sometimes that, you know, ideals can run up against one another. So it's, it's, it's going to be really interesting to see how this trend continues. I'd like to create a department David called we're all good where we pick a story that at one point in history was incredibly interesting that I just feel I have absolutely complete on the coverage of and today, I'd like to nominate any coverage of the final blockbuster video stores in America. Oh, my we, we've we had a wonderful piece by Justin Heckert on the day. We did that last year. We did it. I mean, we're, we're we did it. I saw a tweet from Reuters TV. And when we've reached Reuters TV I feel I just feel. I get it. I was I was a child of blockbuster video, but I think we have looted this particular topic. I mean this is like this is like a president slowly dying. We're paying trip, you know, we're paying visits to the bedside over and over again. I think if we're going to, you know, if we're gonna really rig, you know, examine the death of nineties chains. It's time do like Boston market or something. I mean, we really have to. Just need a pick something else. Anyway, blockbuster video get it get it while you can this week in Twitter beefs, there was a good one between two conservative commentators. David French and David Marcus. The former is of national review the ladder of the federalist and I believe this all stems from a feud of sorts started by Saurabh Amari of the New York Post, which you can read more about in a rust out that column anyway, this particular beef was about David French, that is of national review his pro-life bona fees on, and it's a long thread. But I want to quote to you from the last the last French tweet. This is their actual words. This is not make quoting from a nation text. So how dare you, sir? How dare you, impune, my commitment to the most vulnerable people. I will not be slandered. I do not seek your approval. I don't care about your approval, but the truth matters. And this is the truth. Holy moly. Yeah. Max read Earl pal tweets can only imagine what the state of conservative punditry would be if dueling were still allowed. First of all, I think we need to incorporate the how dare you sir language into NBA Twitter. Ethan Strauss wrote about Draymond. He criticized K D. How dare you, sir? How dare you, impune, my commitment to the warriors. I would love this or if somebody somebody like like slightly misuse it. Missive misappropriates a fivethirtyeight statistic or something then that person has to jump on Twitter like how dare you, sir? That is not at all with that algorithm. Portrays a listener mail David got lots of notes about guy Fieri who's reinvention? We talked about on Tuesday, our pal. Sess summer sent us a defence a feary from comedian Shane Torres. Let's hear a little bit of that. People are horrible to television personality. And he didn't do anything wrong. Here's what he did do America. He started a company where he hires everybody. He pays more than minimum wage. He gives health benefits before he has to he has a nonprofit where he gives pretzel, making machines to school, so they can fundraise. I know that one sounds like I made it up, but I swear to Christ it's true. He works with Special Olympics athletes. And if you need. Little more sugar with this medicine. He also officiated a gay wedding. Yeah. But because he has flames on his shirt. Everybody's shits all over this dude, like he's a member of Nickelback. By the way. What in the hell did Nickelback ever? It's time for the counter intuitive defensive Nickelback, I think that's why I reacted second of all Shane tour is that was a really good bit. He doesn't he sound like Jimmy Swaggart or like an eighties televangelist with Hayden's that familiar cadence he has. He sounds like he sounds like a comedian that would have been invited to my like middle school youth group to perform for us. In the south nine months is gonna say he'd been running your middle school youth group. That's crazy. Another listener mail from Peter Hart. Law by the San Francisco Chronicle who sends us a very good defensive fear. He wrote back in March fury, cook some food for heart lobes, dying, grandmother. I retweeted there from the press box thing we may have now hit the ultimate point. David, where it sort of it's, it's such a giant straw, man. Everybody actually likes guy Fieri, but everyone is taking advantage of this little moment time in cranking out in defensive guy. Fieri think pieces. Ooh. Yeah, I like this. So I think we should declare this moment you've got a month. You can you can sort of ironically, or on Iran nuclear defend guy Fieri for a month. And then comes America's new Julia child. He's off limits. Right. You got to move onto Nickelback. You gotta pick something else. It's, it's like blockbuster and video where we're just moving on anyway. One month from today will will revisit if David and I actually remember also last week, we talked about book publishers, and why they don't have fact checkers this in response to Naomi wolf Jeff new. Men, who was an editor at Simon and Schuster and literally every great sports book of the nineties. I mean every great sports for the nineties. He was a man in that job sent me a note. And he says, and I'm quoting here, and, and pulling various sentences from his nobody says the biggest reason book, publishers don't do extensive fact, checking is that books are inherently different from magazines or newspapers. A book is a presentation of the work of an individual or individuals. Who knows or cares? What company published a book? The author is the brand, not the publisher a newspaper on the other hand, is proclaiming the truth of liberty of everything. It contains. And so as a magazine a periodical, editing and fact checking process will be more extensive because its reputation is on the line. In the way, a book publishers isn't. He also says this is also reflected the fact that a newspaper magazine will generally insist on two. Sources for troublesome account of charge for a book, one good source can be sufficient, and then good, quote is the keyword. And I thought that's really interesting because he's right. Right. And again, I think you can still kinda come down where I do and say that publishers may be abdicating their responsibility in this and say, well, it's on the author. It's not on and off sewn on Simon and Schuster. But he's right when the New York Times says something it's the New York Times says it when Michael Wolfe says something it's really not Houghton Mifflin. It's Michael Wolfe, sang it, and that's and that's a difference again, I'm not sure if that's -nificant a difference at the end of the day. And the I you know, there's no like natural law that the way to do these things. So you, so any, any difference, you can extricate like that a significant but I will say this is not a this is not a, you know, a firm pushback against what he saying because what he says makes a lot of sense, but, you know, who does care about what about the publish about the, the publisher whose name is on the spine of the book. I mean, the publisher does everybody in new or publishing knows exactly what lists the other publishers are publishing. They feel like everybody in the world it walks in any bookstore understands what cannot means or what the penguin, press means or what. Henry holding company means. They think they believe that book buyers, no. At these things are. So while what he saying is absolutely true that nobody cares. The people who are deciding to not have fact, checking departments are actually actually believed the opposite. Let's do David guesses. A strain on the floor. Do I can. I can I have I have news for you. Oh, please one more bit for this. It just came across the wire, Brian. Oh he's caught up. We talked and we were talking about the New York Times show. We talked about the daily we talked about the weekly. It's just been announced by the Meredith corporation, that Entertainment Weekly is going monthly. My mind is completely blown JD Heymann has been elevated to that energy of Entertainment Weekly from his previous post is deputy editor of people, and the new monthly frequency because his according to the merits release will. Will will mean more in depth coverage and product enhancements, recalling it entertainment, monthly Entertainment Weekly. They still grows. Entertainment Weekly August issue will Mark Entertainment Weekly as I as a monthly I still remember the mad magazine parodies sometime in our like, college as where it was called, entertain me weekly. K. L. Y. Speaking of which David, how about a strain pun headline do it. I think we should do this. When that reader, Jason McGinty sent in by the way, send us these at the at the press box pot. I love to see him. This was a, Sunday morning report from ESPN's Mike Reese about rob gronkowski and gronk was shooting down. Rumors that he is attempting a comeback. Okay. So there were some rumors out there that gronk may come back or, you know, at least come back immediately. Gronk was shooting them down. He, he is saying that he is remaining retired. Okay. I'm just leading you on here a little bit. What is the strain pun headline? Also, give you one word it involves the word Pat, not patriot. But Pat, okay. Rob gronkowski shooting down. Rumors that he is attempting a comeback. Yeah. Like, like short for patriot just standing MRs standing, Pat. Oh, okay. You got half of it. I mean, you gave me pet and there's not that many, okay? But what's the other part a wait? There's more to it than that. Yeah. Kind of kind of one of these kind of merely sandy, but standing, Pat, is in it blank, blank standing, Pat. I'm still standing? It's it another pun. I'm so confused by the construction, here, it is. I have no idea what is it, sitting Pat standing, Pat so gronk when he retired became a sitting, Pat capital, PAT, sitting Pat in he is standing Pat where did this run? There's on ESPN like it's on ESPN dot com story pay. Yes. Yes. Not exactly that, not exactly the, the playground for like, artful, like for flora flowery headline. That's had it became escort in the sixties overnight, somehow sitting Pat, standing bad, that's sound like. It sounds like that sounds like a folk song or something. I'm looking at it to Joe in the fishing that at some point. The stitting Pat standing, Pat, is the weird colon grunk so retired as might be the weirdest looking head on a on an ESPN dot com story I've ever seen. But it's kind of funny. I got he is David shoemaker. I'm Brian Curtis are researchers Chris Almeida, our producer is Jim Cunningham more. Lukewarm takes about the media on Tuesday tight weekly now on Tuesday. See David Letterman. Aided. If you are old, I do not seek your approval. I don't care about your approval out the truth matters for sure. And this is the true washed up psycho wearing misfit tuxedo, d'or, you, sir. I'm not sure. Could you? There's no like natural law. It's pretty incredible. I am no idea from the aliens down on our level. We're the poop holy moly. Very good word. Yes. This is the president's slowly guy. What did you? I thought it was good. I thought it was. Yeah. Is the phrase world's most famous David ever not sound insulting. We all knew this day was coming. We wanna see David Sweden into tuxedo with the hunched over guy Fieri walking next to see what that looks like God are we on extremely safe ground. Now, say that even if guy Fieri killed someone in cold blood, I support, this great news. I've got a I've got a Chateau or got a palace. Four is in, in London. Wow. It's a really great beachfront property scary thing feels like the most unforgivable sin that if you wanna be still abetted, then yes.
Trumps Trial, Tony Romo For Hire, and the Legacy of Stuart Scott | The Press Box
"Hey It's was Kelly. Welcome to the ringer. PODCAST network. Winging it with Vince Carter and Anthon Berg is back in full swing for its second season catch up. On recent episodes words with guests like Wycliffe John who talks about growing up in Haiti hip hop as a teacher and performing with a goat. And you can hear from Tennessee. non-cocoa Gov on beating Venus Williams at fifteen fifteen years old. You can listen to winging it on apple spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. David among the pieces of evidence presented this week by Rudy. Giuliani associate left. Parnassus was a note he had scribbled on on a Ritz Carlton Stationary from the Ritz Carlton. In Vienna what I want to know is if you're writing a seemingly incriminating note so what would you choose to write it on what Napkin I mean. Just what anything in year yeah. I think anything super stationary. Now I was GONNA say Belly Sandwich shop down. The street does not have Brandon Napkin. As far as I know although those Toros Toros I believe that that would be leader in the clubhouse right now Dang I let's see I mean to if I want to be real here and obviously that's the point of the press box and the second in general. The answer's probably either my hand. You still do that well. If there's a pin available that's usually the big. That's usually what you know the the barrier right there. I went to high school with you. And you didn't even write notes on your hand in highschool developed later in life. Sorry I I had no idea. Probably if I was gonNA write something incriminating I would I would open up the notes APP on my phone and Right's right right right something incredibly important and and I guess by definition incriminating and then I would immediately forget and never look at that that note again. David's evernote account has been turned over to the to the Democrats in the house. We're the back of the envelope of media podcasts. Isn't the press box. Part of the Ringer podcast network. Hello Media Consumers Bryan Curtis and David Shoemaker. Here we got lots and lots to get through today. We'll talk about the bidding war that's coming for. NFL Announcer Tony Romo between Wean. CBS ESPN at this point. Probably even Turner Classic Movies. We'll talk about the legacy of sportscenter. Anchor extraordinaire Stuart Scott. We'll talk about a good surprises and bad surprises. That happened on live. TV plus the overworked twitter joke of the week. But David got to begin with Lev Parnis. Who feels like the most again? But David we have to begin with Lev Parnassus. Who feels like the most interesting person in the world right now? Parnassus is of course. The Rudy Giuliani associate. WHO's become a central figure in impeachment and now these Senate trial of Donald Trump on Tuesday house Democrats kratz released photos text messages and documents? The detailed Arneses work with Giuliani and Ukrainian officials among them. This letter Giuliani wrote to Volodimir. Alinsky Ukraine's president-elect it begins like this in my capacity as personal counsel to Donald Trump and with his knowledge and consent sent. I request a meeting with you. There was also a note scribbled bipartisan Ritz Carlton Stationary. I Know David when you make your to do lists. Yes you always use Ritz Carlton Stationary that one read gets alinsky to announce that the Biden case will be investigated pretty cut and dry on Wednesday night and interview with Rachel Maddow Aparna said the biggest inaccuracy or lie was that president trump didn't know he was trying to dig dig up dirt to aid trump. Listen up when you say that the president knew about your movements in what you're doing are you saying specifically specifically. I want to sort of drill down on that. The president was aware that you and Mr Giuliani. We're working on this effort in Ukraine to basically try to hurt Joe Biden's political career. Where he was he was all about Joe Biden Onto Biden and Also Rudy had something with the manafort stuff The black bludger. That was another thing that they were looking into but it was never about Corruption was never it was strictly about The burris Salaam which included onto Biden. Joe Biden. PARNIS would repeat that same charge in an interview with the New York Times. David we can talk about what this is going to mean for. Trump's senate trial. Oh but I kind of want ask a general question I is. Wow what did you make of all of this coming out right right now. Yeah you know just I mean in a way here. Let me answer my own question. We're using them. As I was by the sequencing of this that we we all decided like weeks ago a lot of US decided that Donald trump definitely did this stuff. And then now you get this super incriminating evidence almost after the fact and almost feel of anything. It's it has less impact now because it's coming out at this point in the whole saga if if you're if you're if you're apt to be skeptical you're inclined to be skeptical about any of this stuff The rollout I think Linda itself to that predisposition. You Know Rachel Maddow's done some incredibly valuable things in his very talented at what she does I was a little I mean just from the very beginning her I mean obviously the Washington Post and the New York Times subsequently had big pieces on this but when she sort of was like owning the story earlier this week you had to sort of wonder if this is actually like the either the most the wildest thing that happened in the trump presidency or just like some stuff that's being gussied up to make our moms watching MSNBC Mad But it does seem to be. It does seem to be the former right. I mean this has seemed to be like all the true and legitimate and there are questions about the like you said about the the sequencing. uh-huh why it's coming out now and it really does seem to have just sort of snowballed in the I feel like it was. It was just the beginning of this week that I felt like I know his name started. Inching going back into the news and it would they were just sort of it was sort of in the in the context of vague questions of what he might. Have you know if the if he might be allowed to offer what evidence he has and if he'll be accepted by you know the by the Democrats in their impeachment effort and then it just sort of all tumbled out right it does seem incredibly incriminating And it and you know the sequencing right throws into question mainly because it does seem. So it's such like a a note for note. Sort of checklist of incrimination. A of of trump and Giuliani right. I mean it's almost the most the most The thing about it that makes it more. It makes you more skeptical. The goal is just how kind of precise and on composting. The the these accusations are I totally agree and in I guess I guess when I say sequencing wincing I'm not really talking about it in a raises questions kind of way of why we're learning this now just just in terms of how Donald Trump's conduct with Ukraine has kind of changed and and you know I don't know what the word is but just how it's kind of come to lodge in our minds like I I feel of this stuff had come out one week after we read that initial read out of his phone call was Alinsky. It would've been like. Oh my gosh. Wow this is so damning but what happened is it came out after like months of the readout of the phone. Call trump basically kind of confirming all the allegations in an unscripted comments to the media. So then it comes out now and it's actually this. This feels like a key piece of evidence but because it's after sure he's already been impeached in the house and because after we know so much I don't know it's just it's impact startling as it is feels like it was diminished. A little bit But it still incredible and you're right. There is something striking about his like. Is there a piece of paper that exists that lays he's out exactly what Donald Trump is charged with by one of his alleged henchmen. Yes there is. There's even this is my favorite ever touch that Ritz Carlton memo. There's even an asterisk before you know making. Yeah when you're making to do list and you WanNa make sure that the items are kind of denoted right so so we're going to get. It inevitably mounts the investigation. Then pick up my dry cleaning right do do I need a new router order from my computer I just love that. I know inevitably all the items ended up getting started. And then you're kind of back to the beginning it's like the snatches version of a to do list Yeah it's It's it's just sort of unbelievable Now before the Democrats and and you know just the people who are inclined to you know wish the president would be removed from office. Get out too far ahead of ourselves or theirselves or overseas. He's or whatever you WANNA say You know many wise people have pointed out one party is not necessarily going to be even. If he's telling the truth it's not necessarily going to be the most believable person when when Call to testify if indeed. He is even information that he's presented may not be taken at face value into Just from practical point of view I forgot who said this on twitter but it's You know worth worth repeating. Is that the Democrats you know. Even with even with testimony and evidence this damning if it proves out Are you know need. Be careful not Not to exaggerate not to Claim anything that's not completely nailed down because any any any evidence of You know exaggeration or any confusion. Any any misstatement of fact is going to be. Just that's going to become the entire story no no matter how despite how you know like like we said how exhaustive some of this all this All this information is yeah becomes. Insert fake news tweet uh-huh and then were or certa trapped in a vicious cycle. I think just in terms of short-term trump's trial in the senate this this will just just this feels like it will only put pressure on the Senate to call witnesses. You know there'd been this question of. Are we just going to consider what the House did. What the House is presented us with or are we going to potentially put John Bolton in there to testify and just the sense whether it's Parnassus? Specific allegations allegations are not it. Just I think it sort of tells the American public. There's more to learn here. We don't know everything there is to learn and we all we already knew that trump was not being helpful with the investigation. But I think it puts in the public mind that there's more to learn here and in this group of senators that has talked. You know that really wants to. I think make McConnell it. least take a vote on this Susan Collins Lisa Murkowski Mitt Romney Lamar Alexander that. Just sort of cinches in their mind that there's more here to do right and I think in the short-term that's the most useful part I WANNA ask you about some of the ceremony around impeachment. Did you catch the pictures of the footage of the eight impeachment managers walking the articles of impeachment from the House to the Senate. Yes yesterday and then we've got John Roberts is going to be brought into preside on stuff. I was just thinking. This is one of those times at news. Anchors always use. They're a very solemn ceremony very salaam moment of politics what what's happened to solemn ceremonies in the age of trump. Do they just seem ridiculous list. Now because trump has just changed the national tone to insult comedy I mean on the one hand it should it should be even more solemn alum it should feel even more important. My Gosh despite this president who's just ranting and raving and insulting people now. The business government takes over the constitution takes over but actually to me it it feels if anything feels diminished like this is. This is silly and trump's just going to ignore all this stuff anyway. Yeah I mean I mean you couldn't help watch it not saying that they're trying to make a play for you know the TV audience just like the President does at times right. I mean there's sort of like fighting a PR battle Roland. As opposed to Invoking he kind of real solemnity so it's I'm not sure that there's A. There's a better way to do it. I mean I think in some ways you do after disorder taking seriously and have a little bit of a business as usual attitudes the only way kind of to get through this. The situation To put a generally but But Yeah I mean the whole presentation just did a little bit unnecessary terms of the two thousand twenty campaign. This is going to call four of the candidates back to the Senate Elizabeth Warren Bernie Sanders. Amy Klobuchar they are and also Michael Bennett. Who is still apparently running for president and somewhere another? Do you think that's GonNa have any practical value. I mean this is the time normally when those people would just be camping out in Iowa because it's the especially worn in sanders just desperately trying to win an Iowa closure to I guess for that matter button. Is this going to. Do you change the trajectory of the race in anyway. I mean it's it it definitely puts a focus back on trump in impeachment and You know there would. There were times throughout there've been times throughout the primary campaign where we all I think everybody you you Especially those a lot of democratic voters are have been begging the conversation me more about the president unless about these you know sometimes microscopic the differences between the candidates who are running for the nomination Like in some ways we've kind of were at the other end of the spectrum. Now I'm not. I'm not sure I think for some people that will certainly hone hone that message. The anti trump message if. That's if that's the argument they WANNA make but I do think in it. It forces it forces a sort of change of narrative. Right I mean it's it's going to reconfigure the campaign and you know even though it still Democrat versus Democrat at this point It's hard to imagine especially if any of this apartment pans out. I mean if if if the if the impeachment trial we'll take a turn then that's going to be all that anyone's talking about and then and then the you know in the primary campaign they're either going and a half to be solely discussing that and I guess competing over who can test his trump the loudest or they're going to be making or which is more likely they're going to keep on debating sitting and debating over things that like the American public literally doesn't care about right now. So that's exactly the point. Nate silver made. I think you are absolutely right. Because the biggest effect it does not those people being not being on the ground in Iowa. It's at the media's just paying attention to different stuff media's not paying attention to the campaign and the media's paying attention to impeachment so the the conversations a how're you going to run around talking about how to pay for Medicare for all when everybody just wants to talk about the trial of Donald Trump And I don't know that. Just GonNa put everything on hold because it's not like any of these candidates you and I've talked about this after the various debates not like any of these kids have particularly differing opinions on what to do about Donald Trump. I think we all probably remove him from office at this point at least a major ones but it will just I think force people kind of into impeachment zone and it really does. Doesn't it bring out the age old question of how to beat Donald Trump. If you're the Democrats are you going to L. Lean into corruption etcetera etcetera or. Do you feel that's the mistake. Hillary Clinton made and the path to victory is just healthcare. JOBS ROBS taxes red meat or blue meet. I guess democratic issues and anything about this just going to get us distracted away from how we actually win votes in the Midwest Yeah I I that's a great question I think you know obviously for for Nancy Pelosi and and and again. We're we'RE GONNA keep talking about this because the tick tock kind of how this misinformation came to the you know came to the public's eye and came to the you know the Congress People's Congress persons is Is is going to be significant it. I'm not sure if that had anything directly to do with Nancy Pelosi's calculus but it wouldn't surprise me if it did All that is to say. Say The you know the kind of backstage argument that we keep that we keep hearing about an alluding to was. You Know Nancy Pelosi's calculus about whether or not Whether it was even worse trying to impeach trump on a public stage as opposed to just sort of. Let it concentrating on winning the election. Ray and for for in for all of the anti-trump cinnamon all these candidates have expressed and for all the most of them have said that he should be impeached. Removed from office They're implicitly running on the other side right. I mean the existing there despite what they say. They're they're they. Are you know they are the the examples one through six however many are let out of like you know about how how he can go about removing trump by just voting out of office right. I mean these people who are trying to remove him that way so You know I think that it's going to. I think that they're going to have to. They're they're going to have to wrestle with this. Yeah I mean it it. It is a sort of implicit conflict. Even if they're even if they fully believe that he should be removed from office you know and and the more they talk about impeachment. The lesser kind of making a proactive case for their own candidacies Aziz. David it's time now for the over. Were twitter joke of the week where we celebrate a gag. There was so obvious that all of media twitter made it at exactly the same time. Please send your nominees to at the press box. pod were they are always gratefully received. As a result of this week's revelations there was a kind of side story we didn't even touch on was it whether Ukraine Ukraine and this is from Arneses text messages was actually following a former ambassador. Marie Ivanovich was just incredible. There was some. I'm kind of surveillance going on Ukraine is now opening an investigation to see whether Giuliani's associates were participating. Possibly in some effort to surveil her. It was over twitter job to write. Giuliani finally got Ukraine to open an investigation. Right one. Thanks to Jam Dad ad for that David. You'll appreciate. This is an art director before. Tuesday night's debate the New York Times. Our Department made one of those graphics were were they basically have head to toe shots of the six Democrats and the debate all against a single color background kind of looking out at the viewer. Were there from your computer screen. You know what I'm talking about. Yeah it was an overworked twitter joked to right. Is this weezer. Thanks to Tim. Samson Finally there is billionaire presidential candidate. Tom Steyer dock Wednesday about steer inserting himself into that tents. post-debate Conversation Between Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders. Well we got an audio of that encounter this week in style can be heard uttering this. I don't WanNa get in the middle. I just WANNA say hi Bernie. It was an overweight twitter joke to write never ever in my life. Did I think I would relate to Tom Style this much. Thanks David Bertie. If you found the idea of Tom Steiner being relatable to other humans inherently funny congrats. You made the overwork twitter better job of the week. David the notebook dump. I want to start with Tony. Romo he's going to call Sunday's AFC championship game on CBS. He S with Jim Nance. But Tony Romo's contract runs out after the season and Michael McCarthy Over Front Office sports reports at ESPN is is reading an offer to steal away Romo from CBS. It's a multi year deal. McCarthy writes it would pay Romo between ten and fourteen eighteen million dollars who annually according to sources ten and fourteen million dollars if if you want some context here like the big analysts on a network football eighteen. I'm like six or seven million dollars. That's where Troy Aikman much. Yahoo Al Will. Let's say he and that's the rain. That's the going rate without without knowing troy salary off the top of my head. What are you a lot of money? Honey that is a lot of money. What do you make the whole idea of paying? Tony Romo that much to steal him away away in presumably put him on Monday night. Football I mean. Listen it's hard. Ah Sitting in the seat that I'm sitting in having all the conversations that we've had any number of times to not look at that number and say With that by the two hundred and fifty journalists like when that would that would that be. I mean literally. How many to is is that just A? Is that a good estimate of the number of the people who have been let go by. ESPN in the past In the past five years it could be rehired for that amount of money. It's it's hard not. It's not hard not to immediately go there right on the flip side. You know if we're GonNA talk about the distinction between six million dollars or eight million dollars fourteen million dollars. I mean it's it in some in some sense it's funny money right or and if they have the money to spend and certainly the parent company has That much money many many many many many times over You know you go out if you go out and get your you get your dude right. I mean it's it's like you know someone like Tony. Romo is worth the amount of money that Tony Romo is going to get. And if you're and if you're not if you're not the home team to use a sports metaphor An An and if you're not right by the way if you're not running a nationally I mean if you're not running a network a weekly network television show which so presumably the prestige and be a little bit lower. You might have to pay halo more. So maybe that's just a number that they would have to pay now all of that. I mean but but all that aside it does beg the question like how many millions of dollars his of additional eyeballs of additional ad revenue of additional. However you want to quantify it would Tony Romo sitting in their Monday night? Football booth really bring Dan. I don't think it would ever bring in enough to justify the money on its own terms and I don't think that's just Tony Romo. I think you could say that about every you single announcer in the history of announcing may be a Howard cosell or John Madden to site into the familiar. Ones would be able to boost enough to cancel out their salaries but would have like a discernible effect. On the ratings. I just I can't imagine that there's just about anybody else who really does and that's the funny part of announcing right like I of all people pay attention. These people a lot like I mean when I'm watching the AFC championship game on Sunday. I'm going to be paying attention to what Tony Romo says but even if Romo is fantastic is like like at the height of his powers like he was last year at this time. Will that just increase my enjoyment of the game more than ten percent versus generic Phil Simms at the end of his run announcer guy. I don't think so so I can't imagine you. You Know Joe. Six pack from Cleveland like watching wasn't GonNa Watch an NFL game on Monday night now wanting to watch it because Tony Romo's on there and again that's not an insult to Romo. I just think I'd say the same thing about everybody announcing a game right now. Well you mentioned you mentioned men right and I think that there's no I don't think Tony Romo's at that level. I mean he's not one of the if you're retired tomorrow. I don't think he'd be in the you know the NFL announcers hall of fame or whatever but the last time you know Madden got paid. I mean when he got that the the gigantic You Know Fox sports. NFL L. Bag for Yup nineteen ninety-four You know you could have. You could argue at the time about whether or not he was worth a dollar figure that he got the he was getting paid by Fox to legitimise new operation. Right I mean he was getting he was. He was getting paid to be the face of football at a new network. And now we're used to. These rights. Packages is jumping jumping from channel to channel and kind of having to seek them out by Google search. Every time you WANNA watch a game but back then you know Fox buying the NF the rights to NFL Games. was you know kind of a shock to the system for a lot of viewers who are used to watching the exact same way every week their entire or most of lives and so that's what the value of a lot of the value are you of Madden was built into. You can kind of see a little bit of that in the ESPN pursuit of Tony. Romo because you know they. They pay a lot of money any for Monday night. Football Games that fewer and fewer people are watching every year and that have less and less significance every year. To the point. Where you'd be forgiven if you you know for a casual? NFL viewers didn't even realize game being played on Monday. And the and hiring someone like Tony Romo Or hiring only Tony Romo. I think he's the only person you can really put in that category category except for maybe you know he see Sunday night booth. That would really that would really you know be a signal of yet. We're in this game too. That's that's a good point. I would say that their audience has actually been up the last two years. I think it's I think it's totally fair to say it's a smaller place in the sports. TV Football Universe then. It was Certainly you know twenty thirty years ago absolutely. Yeah and and you're right. It is an announcement and I think that's what I think at the end of the day. There's a couple things paying announcers couple reasons. You pay announcers that kind of money one is. You're paying hundreds of millions of not billions of dollars to the NFL. So you just want the game sound good right you really want it to be. You want to be announced. Well you're going to pay all that money but the second thing is is exactly what you say. Those guys become faces of the network. And if you're in the fourth place you know. NFL broadcast booth just in terms of quality just purely in terms of quality of games pudding Romo on the areas. This is a way to say. Oh Wow that doesn't look like fourth place anymore. That looks like something else. There's also this game going on 'cause we're about to Redo all these. NFL rights steals. And there's a lot of thinking that maybe Disney wants some part of a Sunday package. They want to get back they want. They haven't been on that a long time they they would want to get some slice of Sunday football. Maybe it's a big package like. CBS's package maybe at some small thing. They also want to get in the super bowl rotation so they are signaling not just a viewers pay attention us but to the NFL. Hey We got the best guy now. Why don't what you think about us and allow us to pay you a whole bunch of money so that we get better football games and that and that makes a certain amount of sense you know the problem is all? That's going to happen after Tony Romo would probably sign contracts if you're Romo there's a scenario where you do that and Disney get back in the game and you're calling a super bowl every four years and all that stuff and maybe your maybe your portfolio game changes. There's also scenario where you're just calling Monday night. Football as it is right right now and you have some you know. Bengals Jaguars style Monday nights which wouldn't be quite as fun. The the Couple more points on Romo one is you have heard the term highest paid sports caster ever thrown around you. Can I be. Can I be the annoying in media person here that John Madden contract you mentioned nineteen ninety-four. He made eight million dollars a year. We have to adjust that that for inflation Romo is not trying to beat eight million dollars a year and the equivalent now is fourteen million dollars. Eight million in one thousand nine hundred fourteen fourteen million dollars today so. I'm not sure we should care who's number one ever. But if we do the numbers fourteen million if the people who right about movies can adjust for inflation than the people who write about sports media can adjustment flash. So that's good I'll also note. This is my favorite my favorite madden note ever actually I got two favourite madden note. Number one is that in Nineteen ninety-four. He was paid more than any player in the NFL. Right so so the real equivalent is wrote making like forty million dollars. Yeah for me leaving the room making more than he made his a quarterback. Yes us and making more than you know. Aaron Rodgers makes a quarterback right now so that that's incredible number two is when madden was being courted by three networks in nineteen ninety three hundred ninety four. NBC came to him and said here's our offer we're going to give you a bunch of money and because you don't like to fly we're going to build you a train car. This sounds like an Agatha Christie thing. But it's real. We're going to build you a train car that will carry you around in the country. That was part of the off David's recent ringer. We get renegotiation also included the offer. The carpet David David had other priorities. The the I'm actually on a train right now. Believe sound capabilities we have. These days are incredible. I thought I heard fine. China Being laid out before your your afternoon meal the Here's my other point about Tony. Romo Tony Romo is now in the point of his career where the money is so beguiling and the the free agency and we're all kind of playing WHOA JR about him. The people I think have stopped listening to Tony. Romo call again. He's the greatest. Let's give money. Here's the thing I'd say about him. When he has a wide open high-scoring offensive game like he did last week Casey versus Houston she absolutely at his best? 'cause he can wrap his arms around that telestrator and tell a great story. She's less good when he has a defensive battle. If you watch last year Super Bowl Tony Romo was not that great. Because he couldn't tell the story of the game via offensive excellence right. He couldn't do that and I think if it had been another announcer during that game they would have seen where that game was going and they would. Okay we're going to grab defensive tackle. Aaron Donald Kyle Van Noy and we're just GONNA show them every play and we are going to tell the story of this game as being defensive battle. I don't think Romo is as good at that. At this point his career he may become it. But whenever I'd be making claims that Romo is better than madden or better known as I would just say Romo's Motza really really good at one kind of game right now and I'd love to see him get better at other kind of games as he goes well. That's that kind of starts getting a bigger point. which is that you know if he SPN has to pay whatever fifth? Forty million dollars to get Tony Romo you know and they get that. I'm sure they they will see that as a victory but when the tide eventually you know it would never eventually turns on Tony. Romo which were announcers commentators in particular Romo's Romo staved off for the most part Pretty Pretty Nimbly for his career. So forth occur in the booth so far but when every when you know when we turn on him. ESPN being isn't going to be the company WHO's paying fourteen million dollars to someone who's just getting dunked on on twitter every you know every time he he he calls a game And I'm sure that's not going to on the on the spreadsheets elsewhere. In the sports media transactions column. How about Barstool all our pal? Peter Kafka who's great had a report enrico the Barstool. Yeah those guys may soon have a new owner which Kafka calls a low profile. Oh File Casino operator quote and Kafka here sources say Chairman Group which currently owns barstools in advanced talks to sell a majority stake in the company ready to Penn National Gaming which has forty one properties in nineteen states industry. Observers expect Penn national which operates such properties as the Hollywood casino in Bangor Maine in the Greek town. Casino Hotel in Detroit to places. I often take my family to adopt. Barstool the Barstool brand hand for at least some of its operation. So barstool the casino would say you ha- What did he call it a medium tier what was that it was a low profile casino? Operator later okay. Sorry for getting that wrong First things first to all the low profile casino operators out there David shoemakers bank account is open for for business. US Yeah I mean. It's it's a little bit. I mean. Listen it's an easy punch line It's an easy the joke to make. Although you know with all of the money casinos make particularly in the new age of sports betting It's not surprising that I mean that. Even someone who has a gambling effort that we might not be you know wildly familiar with is interested in bidding for. You know what you know what seems to be a very profitable Website and Internet presence in the kind of sports media world Barstool seems like sort of a natural fit. And you know they're gonNA get as much money from whoever ends up you know we auburn's a buying from buying them then they would get from whoever you perceive to be the big players that would have been more. That would have been a you. Know a more expected match There Tony Romo is not yes exactly. I just you know I mean we can talk about the journalistic analysts integrity or you know the ethics of this sort of pairing or whatever else. I'm not sure that it's really worth wasting our breath this is this is a I mean for Barstool in particular. I'm not sure that this would come as any kind of this. Pairing comes comes any kind of shock. you know. They're already testing out. I mean we're we're already have a bunch of gambling content. I mean the ringer has gambling content to but they have you know but Barstool is definitely already making pushing this direction and You know this is not something we didn't you know we serious journalists should be proud of it but this is this may be you know the direction action a lot of a lot of places like we're going right. I didn't know you were GONNA brought it out that we're all going to be owned by low profile casino operators at some point. Listen if if the ring if the ringer you got bought it probably by a low-profile Casino Casino operator to if we got bought by a casino operator much I mean who knows maybe maybe the maybe we bought out by draft kings or something. I don't know but it's not. I mean you know working on working with very different very different degrees of of of wealth and our in our respective ledgers. Here this is a it's a it's a sort of frightening new world I am not. I don't think we're all going to be owned by casinos xenos anytime soon but you know we talk a whole lot about about outlets going under and journalists losing their jobs. You know the fact that money's coming back in the other direction even even such as it is in. This story is a you know it's something I don't really know I don't really know what the end of that sentences. You were joking earlier when you said My. DM's ems are open if there's any casinos out there if the press box sold itself as a branding vehicle don't you think our our highest upside would be the new stand at at the airport when you walk into the airport. You see the new stain your like. I wasn't totally sure that that magazine or newspaper was still publishing and yet he yes. The brand name of the newsstand. Yeah I kinda think we could be competitive in that space. Oh Yeah Fleas. I mean you know what's more valuable than airport. Newsstand me if you when you when you get to the airport and you realize you like you know left her novel at home. There's only one option. You gotta go in there you gotta you gotTa to buy your trail mix and you're like US news and World Report or whatever. gummy peaches man. That's that's I'm I'm I'm in I'm Adam Nutter butters give me through the flight. Let's one more transaction. David that's House of highlights. Oh Yeah 'cause over and variety there's a piece say. ESPN has signed another free agent. Not Romo not a broadcast or not a writer but twenty five year old Oma Raja who created House of highlights. Brian Steinberg writes. Raja's game is figuring out how to get sports fans chatting about liking and passing along the video clips he makes top athletes and plays and that may be the skill most in demand. ESPN perhaps in the TV industry at large in a future likely to be dominated by new video watching behaviors comes from bleacher report. His instagram has fifteen million followers and Steinberg says he will serve as the main voice of ESPN sportscenter instagram account. What do you make of that move by? Espn we talked to them. Before I think when these rumors I started floating around. I mean this is sort of this. Is You know. There's this kind of it. Big Variety story about this. And and you know he's officially been signed by. ESPN servings job. I mean it makes a lot of sense for ESPN And it certainly makes a Lotta sense for for Raja's You know been incredibly successful thus far in his career and According waiting to you know this piece according to Russia he's Kinda still just doing the same thing he's always been doing this for coaling cool clips for the people are going to enjoy to to watch enjoy watching but he's doing over the SPN now There's also a quote in the pieces as ESPN EXP- AIRSPAN in expects him to help plot. The strategy for hundreds of new live programs the company's digital outlets I mean hundreds hunt. I mean in one wonders you you know. If he's fully aware of what's being I mean. Listen if he's going to be the fall guy for the failure of ESPN digital take one hundred or whatever then. I'm sure he's getting paid well enough to to do that. The Guy But you know and honestly he is in in a very specific In a very real weigh-in in new media he is he made it. He is the best there is at what he does right. I mean they're I mean he's he's been incredibly successful what he does so far how that translates did not just the creation of one hundred new. TV show which is a lot to think about but how that translates into just the ESPN boardroom. You know is an open question and Yes and we will I. I mean I guess it remains to be seen I mean there's you know I don't think he's a I mean I presume. They're going to give them some runway. And you you know GonNa find out really what he has to offer because because he I'm sure he has a lot to offer a company like ESPN but as we've seen before you kind of higher company with this kind with much institutional legacy as ESPN. It's not always the easiest fit to hire someone who's just sort of working in their own vertical and trying to like subtly affect act everything else. That's already going on so You know best select the guy and and good for ESPN for hiring the biggest name in the in the you know in a in a area of need But what yeah. We'll see what happens. There's been a couple of stages I feel of. ESPN evolution. One is them kind of subtly the not so subtly going post text you had that generation of print guys who really ran allow the network Vince. Doria John Walsh John. Skipper leave the network writers getting laid off. You mentioned that that felt like one stage and then I think the next stage is at some point. And maybe it's a long time. Hi from now. Maybe it's tomorrow is not only post text but post TV. And what do we do. You know what is. ESPN in that universe divers so this just strikes me as like this is like this is the guy that's going to help us figure it out and maybe we don't have the answer right now but the maybe the answer is hundreds of TV shows is ESPN even have a hundred shows. Currently it's a Lotta shows hundreds of TV shows but may eight and this is the guy who and maybe it's not a show right. It's like some product. Here's a three minute something or other. Here's a thirty-seven center. And he figures out for sure it's really players can and if you're those guys you want people like that in your literal or figurative boardroom. Helping you think through that stuff. Yes absolutely what me I was GonNa say I was GONNA say that won't be the last time that his name comes up on this podcast for sure But it very well may become I mean we we may spend more time talking about what the shape of content looks like. I'm sure we will shape. Shape of content. Looks like over the next year or two years six months. Even you know I mean it's it's a it's GonNa be a whole different landscape especially for for a company like a like. ESPN that you know has a lot of different audiences Accessing once a little bit about Stuart Scott David David please. This month marks the five year anniversary of the death of the former sportscenter anchor. I've got an oral history of his life and death on the ringer right now. How fantastic thank you so much? We can't talk about Scott without hearing sue Scott Right. It's a stupid. You have to hear him to understand. Understand him to appreciate him so here. He is in two thousand six doing highlights from Kobe. Bryant's eighty one point game. I'll just there's let this run for awhile. Enjoy the last time. They met Kobe Bryant in season. Eleven point second quarter Chris Backdoor Kobe. Who just he'll sit the the? Kobe leads the League scoring thirty. Four point eight points per game Lakers down. Fourteen and recess second half of Kobe. Bryant went off command center. This is kangaroo boxer requesting requesting permission to fire kangaroo box permission granted seven of thirteen from three lead late third quarter Colby House up another three in this about to get silly. It's his thirteen forty point game. This year third quarter bunny would've but DUCA dunk his fifty point game. This season tie wanting down the third lamar own of Wide Open Kobe. Who rocks the Ram Lakers up? Four now fourth quarter Mrs just just straight silliness. Kobe Bryant first player since Jordan and eighty seven to sixty point games in one season but early this season he had like sixty two and then sat the fourth quarter on the line with sixty two. There's Kobe's new career high sixty three later in the core Lakers owner Jerry. Buss said quote when you're watching and it's like a miracle unfolding in front of your eyes and you can't accept that somehow the brain doesn't work copay got it out. That's a couple things. One Roy Williams coach over the University of North Carolina. Thome home is I. Don't I didn't even put it in the oral history. But he said this to me which I thought was so great when you when you think of Stuart Scott you smile and when you hear Stuart Scott's voice voice do highlights it is impossible not to smile is impossible like he was that his enjoyment. You heard it there at the end Kobe Kobe. Bryant is. He's the guy who was like. I can't wait to tell you about what happened in sports tonight. I am so excited because I am a fan like you. So that's number one just that enthusiasm number two there. Did you notice David that as this great and as beguiling as those catchphrases were that were sprinkled throughout that minute and change we listen to these statistics statistics and information yes just as Gaudy as the catch phrases And it a Stuart Scott Sports cast. I think gets misremembered numbered by the way by me to before I started this whole piece. Like Stuart Scott was just great at everything. He wasn't gay. Just great a catchphrase. He was great he was he understood. had a tell a story had a studded with just enough information just enough catchphrases how to put emotion into it and and again like that runs for like a minute plus ran you watch it on youtube but runs for another minute. That dude could do everything on on sports television. And that's why he's the Pantheon Level Sports REC. It's true I mean it's it's hard to find words. That don't immediately really just smack of cliche right. I mean but there's but there is a you know it's enthusiasm its authenticity. There's it's it's it sounds so silly silly to say but late you know. There's be doing doing what he did is so many people's dream job and it doesn't and he managed to make it sound like he was doing his dream job but still do it like in the most perfect way right leg. The enthusiasm was like so clear and You know his his Humanity I guess through his originality was always on always on display. But like you said it wasn't even if if we think of the catchphrases it wasn't at the expense of the actual like nuts and bolts of the job. He was excellent that too and The way that you know we we've talked about him before on the show. I mean his influences and profound and not always strictly positive you know means because a lot of people have have kind of learned isolated lessons tremend- not just the kind of lessons of excellence. But you talk to a lot of people in your piece Michael Smith You know is one of the big voices in there Who Talk about the level of the amount of inspiration that he provided for for You know viewers for up up and coming sportscasters black ones in particular and You know it's it's hard to That's just one thing that can be focused. Posted on because Stuart Scott certainly was An inspiration to everybody but but like I said it's just like for someone that embodies so many cliches as but proves them out. You know like you can use all these like just words with without any hesitation any reservation. It's just says everything you need to know about about Him as a as a man as a sportscaster. Yeah I just think when you say it does sound like a cliche to say be yourself on television. It also turns out that. That's the the hardest thing to do on. Television is beer. Some not try to sound like some guy who came before you it turns out. It's even harder when you arrive at. ESPN ESPN in Nineteen ninety-three and it's not an especially diverse company. And there's nobody. He wasn't the first black anchor on. ESPN but there's nobody that it looks and sounds like you ESPN So you're trying to be yourself and be totally different than everybody else. WHO's come before you like? That level of difficulty is incredible and the other thing to remember. Is You know I feel now if you ran into the pushback that Stuart Scott got got at ESPN. You'd say okay. This isn't working. I'M GONNA go work for this other network or I'm GONNA go beyond twitter. I'm GonNa have you know I'm going to have these other places I can go and take my take my talents to use the Lebron James Phrase then didn't really exist in the same same way you know minus a few random times that Fox tried to compete with the ESPN APP. That wasn't a possibility so when he in the nineties saying I'm like no no this is me I'm not going to change. I'm not going to not be myself on the air. He didn't have a place to go. Like you know the the place to go was you don't have a job or the place to go was go back to local television. And I think that under underlines the you know just how a profound that decision was that he made at that point in time. Yeah it's like I'll I mean you wrote it. Everyone should read this piece. It might very limited interaction with the story before it was published was as the art director and I was working with the Sean Fantasy Or steamed to boss to do some photo research and the peace and you know if you would ask me. I might have remembered a little bit of it but I basically forgotten. Just how cool he was just like looking back at old photos of him through his primary. He's like hobnobbing with celebrities. Just like cracking up on the sideline with just like the most elite athletes of the day. you know. Oh he can do his job putting the microphone in front of Paul Pierce Z.. Was Hoisting The you know the championship trophy but also just like just you. You know like I said be doubled over in laughter with with athletes that caliber at the after party. You know I mean he was just Just it's just such a huge presence And I'm so glad you did this piece. By the way that was something he was criticized for was that was that was hobnobbing with athletes at that time that was seen as as big breach in journalists subject ethics. You why are you shaking. Why are you giving these guys a hug? Where you shaking hands with these guys like there were people who said that like today? Nobody would care about that. Wouldn't even make a difference but it is an an. I didn't get into it a ton honey just in terms of space and in terms what I was focusing on but there is a really unhappy trail of Stuart Scott Clippings. In America's major newspapers members are really bad and just and again some of it was clearly coded language Some of it was just stupid. I think I somebody. WHO's at all will you know he didn't you know he was he is act- wasn't worthy of the WB network owner why he chose that example But some of it too was just just picking on him. Relentlessly like people that didn't even write about media just continually mentioning him just over over and over and over again and you know what a time capsule of the Mid Late Ninety S. The reaction to Stuart Scott is as much of anything. Let's do a little listener mail. First one comes from James Radic. We talked earlier this week about the whole idea of political K.. FEHB Kaby David for listeners. Just turning in is the big lie in pro wrestling. It's the adherence to the. You know the the show against the truth. You're in character right. Yeah Listener James Radical writes in. I feel it should be brought to your attention. That nate silver also brought up K FEHB on the fivethirtyeight political politics reaction pod for pronounced it cuff fob. Cafa Bay That's why you need a wrestling guy on your postponing glad. That's where we women that you know we don't make those mistakes around here This note comes from Phil. We'll sendero it's Phil Rights. Not News related but the best pun I've seen lately cast cafeteria Disney's new galaxies edge. Park is called Admiral Snackbar. Oh my Gosh yes admiral. Snack Bar Bravo Disney. Any that bet almost deserves a whole binge mon episode. Can we get get mallory and Jason on the Line Admiral Snackbar Wow. I'm finally David. Last week we talked about the phenomenon when to funny things get smashed together in your twitter. Feed Oh yes. And they just happened writer the the algorithm sort of pulls it in I think the example was world war three slash W. W. three getting mixed together with weightwatchers tweets We asked what should we call this phenomenon. We got a lot of suggestions seth summer Feld said it should be called. Synchronicity feed synchronous of feed. Oh I like that. An account called keepings of Jim. Something we also have over here at the press box heaping gem said it should be called Malgorn go rhythm how go rhythm Joe Sheehan James Radic again. Say it. Should be called serendipity tweet serendipity between but I think I'm ready to declare winner Kirk Bego one of our POWs longtime listener. Says it should be called the juxtapose post. Yes that they're sure anyway. Congratulations Kirk all right time for David. Shoemaker guesses a strain pun headline Okay L. Last week's headline attached to a paper about college siblings was called. Oh brother where start thou as usual our listeners. Were Funnier funnier than we were you. Boy orbison says it should be called. Oh brother where art school. Jeff Newman says oh brother were bachelor bachelor of Art Thou Misty Mountain hot says Oh brother where liberal arts though yes they said line is pretty incredible comes from Chris Fleischer Fleischer once again. We're exploiting David. The comedy stylings of academic papers volume fifty seven of economic inquiry. Something something I know. That's on your nightstand. The paper in question has three authors. It's about male pattern. Baldness something no neither. Are you nor I has ever thought about no sir. Not once the author surveyed balding men to see how much they would pay in order to have hair again again. The answer apparently was thirty. Thousand Dollars thirty thousand I want you to put aside the that number for for a second think of balding men. How much would they pay to have hair again? What was economic inquiries strained leaned pun headline God And I I am. I cannot think how much you pay plugs. Yeah what form would too. Hey Oh A high price to pay the price to pay what I'M GONNA I'm GonNa Declare Victory Willingness To pay that's great willingness to pay congratulations to the comedians over there at economic inquiry do you get economic and economic. Do you get economic inquiry at your else. I think I let my subscription lapse and I apologize for that. He is David Shoemaker. I'm Brian Curtis Research by Chris. Almeida an Erica savant production magic Educ by Jim Cunningham. We're back next Tuesday with more. Lukewarm takes about the media. See David Bryant David I request meeting with no in. This is oh my gosh in a way here let me answer my question. Yeah well did you make to nutter. butters awesome stuff. That's being gussied up to what our MOMS WATCHING BBC mad. But we use a mace. I was the sequencing of this
Oppo Dump! | The Press Box (Ep. 572)
"Hey, guys, it's Kelly. Welcome to the ringer podcast network. The ringers YouTube channel is marrying one hundred thousand subscribers so make sure you check us out on YouTube dot com slash the ringer to keep up with the latest MBA. Desktop adjacent. Concepcion slow news day with Kevin Clark and tons of ringer original videos, like Holly, Luca or Kobe come back. Also, be sure to check out all of our NBA trade deadline coverage Kevin O'Connor wrote about the ongoing pursuit of Anthony Davis. Dan, Devine wrote about the five biggest questions after the trade deadline and Bill Simmons and Ryan russillo recorded alive trade deadline reaction podcast, which you can watch on YouTube dot com slash the ringer or listen to an apple in Spotify. David. People on the Twitter machine. Got mad this week because every negative news story about a twenty twenty presidential candidates is being called in oppo dump. What's a better and less unappealing term to use than oh, dump gosh, too, so unnecessary. I think I mean it depends. If it's true, then I think we can just call it a fact, right? I think I, you know, I'm an. I am not the I haven't been in this world for too long. But I think back in the house days of journalism. They used to call that a lead. Yes, somebody would give you some information. Follow it up with some research and some reporting. Yeah, it sort of begs the question of if you got true information from somebody who was let's say on another campaign. Should you not print it? Right. What if what if information came from people who had had a stake in the matter? That's okay. Right. That's not. It's not the worst thing in the world. Yeah. Be skeptical. But but Bitta you can verify if you can verify you should run with it. We are the friendly dump of media podcast. This is the breast box a part of the ringer podcast network friendly. The press box is the media podcast. We are not allowed to tell us whether or not you record an interview, we don't care. We are Bryan Curtis and David shoemaker of the ringer and three big topics. We got for you today. David. I Jill Abramson was a decorated journalist, then she wrote a book about the media now, she's an undocumented journalist, oh, a former New York Times editor got cancelled second. And this will shock you David. But Kevin Durant laid into NBA reporters last week and beyond the pure elation, I think the blast was a vision of the future of NBA media relations. I will explain and finally the founder of Amazon gives journalists everywhere the licensed to read the headline beezus exposes pecker a case of reverse journalistic extortion. Plus our weekly notebook dump? And of course, the overworked Twitter joke of the week, but David lit, Starwood, you'll Abramson, and I think it's important to say right off the top. The Jill Abramson what she did in her book the merchants of truth is plagiarism full stop. Yeah. Unequivocal plagiarism as vices Michael Moynihan another's pointed out, and I think it's important to say that because Jill Abramson is running away from the word plagiarism like tyreek hill running away from defensive backs. Here's Brian Stelter of CNN trying to pin her down this weekend. Unreliable sources when she claims that the problems can be traced to the books footnotes. But either by include a footnote, I still can't steal their words. Word for word the way while if you give them proper credit you can but not in a Bach. It doesn't matter. If I put a footnote three hundred pages later, if I do that in a book, that's plagiarism that's word for word stealing of other people's work. Well, that you know, that's here your position. I don't see it that way. Harvard definition of plagiarism, and you work at Harvard at your time as plagiarism where you worked you're saying. I plagiarize I'm saying that I made some errors in the way, I credited sources, but that there was no attempt to pass off someone's ideas, opinions and phrasings as my own. These were all factual passages that unfortunately, did not max match up exactly to the right footnotes, but they are credited in the footnotes elsewhere credited the end of the book, but the words are stolen from other sources, the actual words so again to repeat when you take direct text from various sources and put it in your book called the merchants of truth. And don't put quote marks around that text. That's play. Address doesn't matter for the footnotes. There doesn't matter. Footnotes not doesn't matter. Here's why I want to take this discussion. David because I think I don't want to get us totally bogged down on the particulars here. Mike question for you is why do you think Abramson has such an aversion to copping to plagiarism? Why is that particular journalistic crime so hard for her just to say, I did it? I'm sorry. Affixed it on the next round of books. Well, I think the answer sort of in the question first of all I mean, it's. She has to be just totally pinned to the ground by the under the weight of irony here. Right. I mean, it's just that. She would write a book about journalism called merchants of truth. And and have this be the I mean, just all that anybody wants to talk about. And justifiably, you know, we we talked about this sort of thing in the realm of politics sometimes in the realm of sports. I don't think that it's I don't think I mean, I think there's something just sort of deeply human about the desire to sort of dodged the charge rather than owning up to it. Even when that would seemingly put you on the on the right path. But an and also, you know, I think that there's I mean, I'm not sure that in this specific instance that owning up to it would really make a big difference in terms of this media pro push. I mean, she's she's out there doing the shows to promote the book, and I'm sure most of these appearances were scheduled ahead of the ahead of the controversy. And I don't think that an apology on show number. One would affect the fact that I mean, we would keep show number two from go digging into this stuff. So I think sort of fighting back. I mean in the very it's it is sort of like a political move. But I think fighting back she probably sees that as a as a as their best move it. And I someone someone here at the ringer pointed out, and I think that it's sort of borne out to be true that that I'm not sure that the the the combat and that the fighting back is the best look for. But but that there's so that, you know, getting in the weeds about the technicalities of footnotes are making it seem like it's an argument. That's in the weeds. I think you know, we'll probably leave most most viewers. To believe that it believing that that she didn't do anything terribly terribly wrong. Which is not the case. So I mean, I think on some sense, and some I think that it's you know, she it is sort of canny decision other than other. That's I think you're exactly right. And I think the lesson is when journalists get shoved into a corner and caught red-handed with obvious wrongdoing. They turn out to be just as we usually and truth verse as the people they cover, right? You know, we would like to think that we are paragons of of some kind of virtue. But you look at her. I mean, I read this vox interview that she did. And she says I had a fact checker and several people helping with research, and I did many dress of many chapters full of factual materials, and you know, mistakes were made somebody like Jill Abramson who was the Washington bureau chief of the New York Times surely knows that mistakes were made is such a classic passive voice phrase of political blame shifting. That it has its own Wikipedia page just monocle the number of times, it's been used in your as a political journalist using the phrase mistakes were made. And by the way, I think I saw that on Josh Marshall's Twitter feed. Just have my attribution. Correct. By my trailing footnotes wanna make sure all that's all in line here. I think a couple of other things though, why she can't say this. And by the way, I'm not doing PR for Joel Abramson it if she wants to if she wants to revisit this on every single show, that's fine with me. But I I am I'm curious why this charge when it's so obvious. I mean, I think the other thing did you read this Tomsk Ohka column that he wrote in daily his blog, and he writes about these reporters and writers who were kind of too big to to be charged with plagiarism in a way, you brings in freed Zaccaria endorse Kerns Goodwin. And he says, and you and you hear it in the in the way, she talks about the sentences there. She the message Skoca rights as sentences Abrahams stole weren't good enough as writing to count. Stolen property, though. They were good enough to put down in a book as if they had been her own writing. And it's almost that. It's like plagiarism is such a penny any crime if you had to compare it to like an actual crime. It would be like stealing someone's mail or something, you know, it's just so lame. And so bas- that it's almost like she can't bring herself to just say. I just did the lamest most obvious thing that a news clerk of the New York Times would right. Yeah. Kind of a a lot of things a lot of things that touch on here. I mean, again, I don't wanna get too far in the weeds. But but the quote that quote, the we played keeps coming up, and she says Abramson says, you know, the trailing phrase notes are okay. If you give them proper credit or or the way that she, you know, whatever this sort of plagiarism, whatever she's being accused at if you give them proper credit, and there is a grain of a kernel of truth there. I mean, the proper credit she should have given was put the excerpts in quotation marks. In in the in the in the on the page. It's not a matter of. You know, it's it's it's not it's not a matter of just like an error in citation now, I can speak as someone who's written a book and who used trailing phrase notes, and who found himself in in, you know, these sorts of situations. Not I don't believe I was ever accused of plagiarism. But, but you know, you want let's do it right here today. One can understand when someone in my position can be sympathetic, right? I mean, you can you understand how it took place. Right. I mean, you're you're you're taking especially in the internet era. You know, what what was once what we're once handwritten notes that you would sort of paraphrase in the process of taking them become cut and paste jobs from websites into Google docs. You don't remember when you look back, which things you rewrote in which things you just pasted wholesale. And without an and then if you're when you're used to working in the in the world of newspapers where you do have a a a fact checking desk that this is their job to make sure the stuff doesn't happen. And you find yourself working in books where? That is rarely if ever the case that there is those sorts of dedicated employees most in most cases, it's the authors responsibility to hire someone to do that kind of work themselves. You know, you there is a sort of oblivious nece that that are that are writer after you know, of a certain level of esteem or not, you know, could have, you know, I guess my only devil's advocate argument in her defense would be, you know, this is clear at what she did was clearly plagiarism, but we know. It sort of mind boggling to think that that there would be no crime if she head rewritten. Those excerpts ten percent more than she did. Okay. So you're opening up an interesting question here, which I have seen people kind of get a skew on Twitter right resolved Jill Abramson committed plagiarism. Yes. I have seen her also accused of things on Twitter that are more in a second category of journalistic misdemeanor, which is I don't know any other word for it than the dick move bright. Yeah, there's plagiarism where I'm stealing sentence from David shoemaker. And then there's the dick move where David shoemaker had ten examples of why Jill Abramson book is bad. I took all ten and wrote my own original review about why Jill Jill Abramson book was bad, not stealing any of your language, but not giving you any kind of generous credit, you know, somewhere saying these examples drawn from David shoemakers, excellent rundown bub-bubba. Yes. Yes. And you right. But I think I mean part of this is I think plagiarism weirdly gets elevated to the ultimate journalistic crime. Yes. If I had to list the venial sins, it's probably at no higher than second behind, fabulous fabulous. Gotta be worse. If you're introducing fake information into the you know into the world. So there's a little bit of that. But yeah, I mean, but look I think journalism as some as a newspaper veteran like like like, she knows is very derivative exercise, and what you bring to it is either rewriting it yourself and putting it in your own words. No matter how exciting exciting they are. And the second thing is if you don't, and if you can't be bothered to do that then to credit someone else who who had to do that. And you know, like one thing she uses it's really irritating. And I think this came out when way back in the Rouge elite at the new Republic, remember? Who got this is like nineteen new Republic scandals ago? So if you forgot I totally understand, but she was the same thing where it's like, oh, the stuff I took was only boilerplate sentences. Right. But if it was so easy to write boilerplate sense. As why didn't you just ride 'em, man? If they're so unmemorable and easy. You just rhyme yourself and like you said change him by by thirty percent. Just write him in a different way. That is journalism. Right. Most of like so much of what we do is not just is not grabbing completely one. Your your your piece is not one hundred percent, original discovery. Right. Right. Even abuse. It has tons of reporting it lots of backfill lots of history stuff like that he rewrite it. That's what you well. I think I think that the answer to your original question of why she you do is, you know, so intent on on denying this charge. As is relates to what you said about it, you know, plagiarism being elevated to the, you know, the the number one cent in German journalism in that. I'm sure on some level. She believes her crime to be a misdemeanor, but the only name for it is you know, is capital murder. And there's that disconnect at least two to her or to her defenders is is you know, what what's leading you know, this this spate of denial. Yeah. But I think I think part of that's writing about the media, right? If you're a cop, you can't get caught jaywalking in a legal parking all the time because you're a cop. Right. If you're a copy, can I just had a one d y you know, you really gonna blame guy for that. You kind of have to have a perfect slate. Right. You kind of have to you have to try as best as you can get it. Right. And I saw her her using the phrase, I think she's an op oh was it up on waging an auto campaign. This is what she used vice versa. Right. And I understand that like what she's doing again is trying to blame shift and say, oh, it's their fault. They're mad at the way. I betrayed them. Yeah. They are by the way. And if you're a journalist who is writing about other journalists, and you're gonna write about them. She calls it a balanced. Portrait you can read as negatively whatever you read it. Yes, they're gonna come for you. Of course, they are. So you better make sure everything's right. And you better make sure you don't leave your flank open by doing stupid stuff like borrowing ascends or getting your facts wrong. Of course, they're gonna come free. If I read something negative about a journalist. Of course, they're gonna call me your Email me pissed off. Yes. That's what they're gonna do. You can't get anything wrong and Dakota ob-. You know, oppa whatever she's called it. I mean, it's that's just the most. I mean, it's on on some level. That's the most problematic part of the whole thing is to say it was us. Why they're waging an off oppo campaign when she she cannot believe that to be true. Yeah. Right. So I mean to to say, oh, well, we have disagreements over, you know, what's what's an acceptable level of journalistic, borrowing, or whatever, you know. That's just like muddling words, but to like just outright lie about I mean, I mean, and listen, maybe there wasn't meeting advice where they said we got to go after her because they're going to make us look bad. Although I don't really believe that there's. Anything in the book, nothing that I've read that that does anything to alter my my view of what vices I mean, there's a couple of you know, stories that sort of seem to sort of back up what they've done. But overall, I would say, you know, if she was trying to be critical to it wasn't wildly successful. No. But it's like I mean to me even an opera campaign is like. Why would you blame them? Why would you blame anybody? If you wrote an right thing about them for then like taking a close look at your words to find out if you made any mistakes, right? And the end the I I mean the opening volley ball. Along with upo the opening volleys in this supposed- oppo campaign were vice employees, not not senior staff meeting like that just pointing out factual errors about themselves raise. I mean it with people going onto Twitter and saying, wow, she like like deliberately tried to make me look like a less like less of a person than I am or like a like a like less serious than I am or or just tried to make light of you know, what I'm contributing to the to the journalistic world and one a hand pointed this out to they'd like, it doesn't matter if they are waging an opposition campaign. Right. Because what she was doing was still plagiarism. Yeah. I mean, it's it's really beside the point. And I think the point that you were getting at the you made was was exactly right. You can't. I mean, some of these errors are some of the some of this plagiarism, some of everything I mean, some of this would be more forgivable if she were coming from a different platform, and she's but she's not right? I mean, you are the most basic. Tenants of journalism, and she was she had one of the most significant jobs in all of journalism, and and to be fighting like a like a political spat is just like like, it's just so beneath her that it that it just de-legitimize is the whole enterprise, she knows the difference to have their stuff and the thing about her not recording. Our interviews. Did we did you meant you mentioned that, you know, speaking of fifteen scandals ago, go ahead. Well, I she she at some point. I mean, I was at fifteen scandals ago. I just I mean, I can't read you'll and scans ago. Yes, she she said someone asked her about her about no taking or by recording or whatever. And she just claimed to have a photographic memory. I mean was that is that getting it correctly. She she she just remembers everything and writes it down, and listen, I mean, that's that again, that's the sort of thing. That's like charming to hear from like an Esquire feature writer in the fifties. You know, I mean, but it's not that that's not the sort of thing you expect to hear from someone with her resume. Right. And and it's, but it, but it all goes into the same pot of bazaar irresponsibility in this process. Can I'd say my favorite part about the about. No record gate. Yeah. Wasn't win. Wasn't win every journalist on Twitter stood on their hind legs to say. Well, I record my interviews. Oh, oh, we're talking about. Let me tell you about my process. And then everybody goes into the thing like every journalist just wants to tell you about their process, they can Britain nothing. And they're just like let me let me to have put my piece together. I wanna go. No, no. I don't just write something else. I really don't need to hear the home. I don't wanna hear how you put your stories together. I just wanna read your good stories. And this was like an excuse for everybody to go. Now when I do an interview I have a tape recorder running, and I have this. I'm like, please just just write a story. Don't don't do this. You know, we don't we don't need. No, don't teach me. Don't don't teach. Just just go back. Please. The other thing one last thing about this. Because as a book publishing veteran, I want to get you to get at this too. I'm gonna put my foot note on the front end this time Jason for Goan reported, the San Francisco Chronicle writes about our tweets about how. He thinks this is this is due to her not having written the whole book herself. Right. Okay. And she does have this this note in the knowledgeable thanking people for for for doing parts of the work. And she says forgoing says Abramson can't defend herself by saying, quote, look, I didn't write the book and a lot of people in my level. Don't because it would sound even worse. Tell us was a book publishing veteran. How that whole thing? Plays is an apocryphal memory error in implanted memory that Charles Berkeley claimed that he had not read his own biography. When it came a movie wag raphia blues misquoted in his own by. Yes. Yeah. I think that's possible. Although I find it from having been inside the walls of book publishing. I find it a little bit hard to imagine. The Jill Abramson would have gotten a book contract. Under on those same terms as like, you know, the Yao Ming autobiographies is gonna go into elementary school library. It'll be whatever. I don't mean. The full, you know, let's let's let's get the ghostwriter. Let's get Jerry Jenkins in here. I I mean, I had a research assistant who drafted portions of the manuscript for me. And then I went in and rewrote them not realizing that maybe some stuff at slipped in. And so I'd well, oh, this is a nice sentence not realizing it was from somewhere else. He had the thing you hear from writers. And you don't have to have worked in book publishing a know this. But I mean for my, you know, writing career, I know this firsthand thing you always hear about writing books. Don't do it. Right. Because it it's just even a someone who is a professional writer who writes every day writing a book is just a tidal wave. I mean, it's just it it physically painful, and it's a whole lot of work. And and and yeah, a lot of people have research assistants lead. People have have assistance in the writing and all of these again, not trying to ascribe to. Much benefit of the doubt here. But all of the errors all of the the the the crimes of plagiarism here. I mean are very clearly just. The the problem was, you know, not enough time too much work, you know, the little and and just things not just falling by the wayside. But I think just just, you know, turn like like I said before the turning scraps of notes what you thought was a note into a into a lion your book, that's something that the that's just a simple error that if you had more time, or if you had a shorter piece that you were working on you might have avoided. But yeah, I think that that's I think that there's some of that. And and I think that her defensiveness to me, I mean, I think that if that is true. And I think there's probably a kernel of truth to it that the defensiveness kind of reads more to me like maybe she had more help than even her publisher new. But, but you know, it we'll see we'll see. I mean, I or maybe we'll probably never see. But it's a that that kind of stuff definitely happens. And this is the this is the result of that sort of it's just another element of carelessness, you know, to hand off something that you're gonna have your name attached to. Speaking of unintentional plagiarism, David. It's time for the overwork Twitter joke of the week. Yes. What are we celebrated gag that was so obvious that all of media Twitter made it at exactly the same time? The alliance of American football David kicked off on Saturday. I don't know if you caught any of that action any any hot San Antonio commanders action. But Brad Davis, and Lou Mak to listeners remind us that it's always an overweight to joke when you have a new league to claim that you've been a lifelong fan of a given team or to claim that every long run and passes a new league record. So thanks guys for for flagging those right before we came on the podcast today. Cuyler Murray Heisman Trophy winning Oklahoma quarterback finally decided that he's going to play NFL football instead of going to play baseball with the Oakland Athletics. The team that drafted him. Okay. It was an overwork Twitter joke that this morning to say Cuyler Murray colon. Why I'm leaving the athletics. The good stuff, and it was all over the place. Thanks to Matthew Ghanaian for that one. And finally, David a giant scandal continues to unfold in the state house in Richmond Virginia. Is it? I am. I so messed up that I couldn't help. But think about Larry Sabato, you know, the reliable. Dial a quote of Virginia politics. How excited must Larry Sabato be the last two weeks. I mean, probably sad. Certainly right about the the about the sad events in Richmond. But do you think he's working like nine phones right now? I mean, how many how many calls that guy? Thank God gets calls all the time magin. Now, I opened the New York Times the other day, and this was the Larry Sabato, quote, this collection of scandals proves beyond. A doubt the Virginia has not progressed as far as thought it has. And it has a past. It's still hasn't come to terms with. If you need if you did cut like the all summarizing, quote that really doesn't say anything about everybody can do that. Not everybody can do that great stuff. Also love this tweet from huffpost. Jeffrey young I have checked my high school yearbook, and while there are no racist photos in it. There are tons of racist. People dressed normally that's. Anybody who grew up in the south going to notify with that one? Dave. And I went to high school together. Incidentally, just a just a note. All right, David for the over works. Ralph nor them the black face using. And also black-faced Jason Virginia governor who still hanging onto power as Democrats calling him to resign. It was an overworked Twitter joke to call his recent efforts, the war of northern aggression. Okay. And Matthews Xilin who sends it in points out that would nor them one the Virginia. Gubernatorial race in two thousand seventeen people on Twitter, also called the the war of northern aggression. So there's just a limited number of puns that we have to find uses for at any given time. Right, right. You gotta get you. Gotta good overwork Twitter joke. It doesn't really you got to find a hook for it. It doesn't really matter if it's the best hook. Yeah. And finally on that same note this one David when we said more black faces in government, maybe we should have been more specific. Thanks to bug for that one. All right. David before we move onto Kevin Durant versus the media. Let's take a quick break. Clean up your remote control clutter with control center by Covault, control centers, simplifies your home theater. 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Control center by Covault, one remote that does it all. Our David last week. Kevin Durant was in a period of silence, aka not talking to these sports writers and regional cable types after the game naturally. People got interested in why he wasn't talking especially since the New York Knicks the team a lot of people think Durant is going to sign with this summer. Had just cleared out a ton of salary cap space, almost if they knew Durant was coming to New York. Uh-huh. On Wednesday, Katie as he's known faced the media. And here's what he said nothing to do with the Knicks on. No who traded porzingas got nothing to do. With me. I'm trying to play basketball come in every day actually about free agency ice my teammates. My coaches roundup the fans about it. Let us play basketball that's all along saying. And now when I wanna talk to you is a problem with me Goma grow up. Grow up. Yeah. You grow up more. I come in and go to work every day. I'll cause no problems. Playwright way try to play the right way. I try to be the best player can be every possession. What's the problem? What am I doing here? Oh. So who are you? Why do I gotta talk to you? Tell me does that is that going to help me do my job better. No, I didn't feel like talking who. Are you David who are you? I don't wanna make too much of this. Because if you just like hear what he's saying. I just wanna play basketball. He's at. You're twisting my words at another point during that, this is what every athlete who's ever been pissed at the media has said this doesn't this from this is the playbook. Right. I just think it's interesting we've gotten this point where NBA players have officially or unofficially. You can't officially become a shadow general manager, unofficially become a shadow general manager, right? Like, Kevin Durant? Like, LeBron James like all these guys. And now they find themselves facing criticism from the media for being a shadow general manager, right? Not just for how. Kevin Durant plays. Not just because he missed the big shot and got called Mr. unreliable by the Oklahoma City paper. But now he's getting blamed for orchestrating things around the league. What do you make of that? And is this where we're going to go now in our media relations with our favorite NBA superstars. Yeah. I mean, listen, I think that I think that there's a little bit hard to to talk in great specifics. But there is a feeling first of all this is what we're interested in in the NBA right now, we've had this conversation before, you know, the the the NBA games, do, you know, find ratings, but, but it's clear from, you know, the general direction of web traffic that we're that people are more interested in trade. Rumors and Yup. End speculation free agency in all sorts of speculation is hypothetical. Yeah. Hypotheticals and the it's the dirt. It's the gossip, you know, I think that there's there's certainly a feeling amongst fans that there is sort of a shadow in BA going on right? I mean, the people re. Reporters podcasters such as our boss Bill. Simmons people, you know, will openly discuss the tampering that is surely going on and and the sort of way in in the in the fine lines between tampering with a capital T. And with lower case here, whatever you want to delineate it there's you know, there's there's also this. There's also amongst people like Bill like in all the big names. We there there have been discussions from you know, about about Adrian Wootton hausky, lots of different people who will who will Brian win horse. I think there was a specific example, it's not coming to mind. But who who will who will say after the fact? Yeah, we all knew that was coming. When a big story happened missed big story breaks, right? Right. And so there's this feeling that there is a a level of knowledge in the inside that the fans aren't getting. And so. Even though I think that the reaction to the Knicks Mavericks trade that that sort of opened up all this, you know, the cap room to potentially get Kevin Durant is a little bit overblown. And you can listen to Zach Lowe's, wonderful podcast. I think you I forgot who his guest was. But he he discussed it right afterwards. And he made the really compelling case that this is just a really simple dollars and cents. You know decision that they made in regard. I mean, certainly there is something else going on. But you can make it. It's not as one sided as you'd think. But I do think that there's, you know, just the assumption that there's that there's all this sort of backroom dealing going on and whether or not Kevin Durant is fully, you know, in the loop on that, you know, whatever it it. I can I can understand his frustration. Right. I mean, the stuff about the teammates stuff about messing messing with the message messing up the, you know, his relationships in real time. I mean, that's that's I can understand whether it'd be frustrating. But you know, all you can really do is sort of the the inverse of what of what kyri Irving to being the season. And just say, I'm not gonna sign with the Knicks or I've I've never talked to the next like literal. This is never happened yet having declared of full statement, whether or not wait a minute. We haven't had what hasn't stopped anything with Kyra has it though. Thank you lady. But Kyrie irvings next destination all year it will. Yes. But this is also like the are you running for president thing that that always kind of raise my hackles. It's like like how much how much time and energy do politics reporters waste trying to goad people into talent, you know, saying something a little bit less than specific about whether or not they're running for president or you know, to get the non denial denial just and that becomes a news story. And the sure I think we should have we should have just like designated zones where we can have these sorts of conversations. And then and then actually just like, you know, report the news the rest of the time. I get where he's coming from way. It's like three seconds and the pain or something like that. Yeah. You gotta they gotta get out. I feel a little bit of sympathy on the other hand. I think what's happened is if you're an NBA player, and you've suddenly accrued general managing player movement agency in in your sport. Like almost no player has has ever gotten any sport. Ever. Right. You know? I mean, how many people are either unhappy moving teams forcing a trade just in the last like two weeks, right? You would take this tradeoff that you're gonna get annoying more annoying questions in the press conference about where you're signing next year. Yes. Or our team's doing things because there's a secret understanding or secret, wink, wink, that you're gonna go there. I think you take that trade if you're an NBA player knowing, but like all of a sudden, you get to do what you want thing. And by the way, thank goodness in from my point of view. So yeah, you got this. Exactly. Right. It's a I mean, this is a conversation about agency. Right. But it's not but about power. Yeah. But we should not. I don't think you can. But you're still going to get annoyed, and I and I don't think that despite the level of power. And I mean, despite the fact that players like Durant have supplanted the teams, and in some sense supplanted the league as the public facing voice of bat of professional basketball. We can't read every time. They talk into an open mic as the official statement on the subject, right? You're allowed to be Pissy after a game. Cherno your when when people are. Rammed into your face. And you and you opened up by saying the right thing. This is a very this is the standard response people are always met. And and you know, he was responding. I think he was particularly mad about a specific article that he that he went on to discuss by by Ethan Strauss. And and, you know, there's there is I think that I think that that, you know, setting that piece aside, there's there's always going to be legitimate gripes with the way your written about, right? Oh, yes. It's not just a matter of it's not just energy, admit gripes. Yeah. Sure. But but, but there's you know, there's the those two things, you know. I mean, there's plenty of both of those to go around. But yeah, I mean, I think that it's I think that we we shouldn't we shouldn't be too hard on him for one outburst because these human, but you're right. I mean, in in some sense, it's the the playing field is shifted to such a degree that you know, we have to take even those outbursts somewhat seriously. Yeah. I mean, I thought this was estranged by LeBron's thing on Instagram this week. More than anything was when Harrison Barnes got traded by the Mavericks, and a trade that followed that trade. We were just talking about nieces when a player wants to be traded or leaves a franchise he's a selfish slash ungrateful player. But when they trade release wave cut you at cetera et cetera. It's best for the team. I'm okay with both. Honestly, I truly am just call a Spade a Spade. Right. So he's essentially making this argument. Right. Why is it when we want to go somewhere where selfish, etc? Right. But when a general manager like Danny Ainge, just dumps us in a trade. Ain't no problem. You know that was what was best for the franchise. There was a good response though. When getting to what I'm talking about. I saw this from Dallas radio host Jeff Wade, where he said, I don't agree with disagree with LeBron take the problem is that LeBron just tried to trade tried to trade heftiest team to the pelicans. So if LeBron is arguing hey, NBA players are real people. They have feelings let's not treat them like assets and salary dumps. And all this other stuff, which I agree can be kinda dehumanize. Getting LeBron would wasn't LeBron kind of trying to do that. Or at least we think in order to get Anthony Davis. I I wanted to ask you to this conversation a different way. Because I think there's one thing that's interesting that I heard Ryan russillo. Say on the BS podcast at the trade deadline that big blow out that he and build it. He said something along the lines of this. Look the media right now the sports media like it has never been before is incredibly pro player right now. And thank goodness for that. Right. They are denting with players more than they ever have. And you know, the player should have the power for it to move around. Not the billionaire ASA who owns a team. Great what? Russillo, went on to say was even if you feel this way shoot you admit over the last few weeks months years that this is actually causing incredible chaos around the league. And at some point it sort of gets insane. So he's essentially saying can you be a sports writer who says I think player should have all or most of the power. And at the same time it mitt that the players using that power to its fullest is making the NBA kind of insane and weird. And almost you know, straining a lot of relationships right now. What do you think of that point? Well, I mean, I think that there's I think that he's asking the right question. And I think that you know, I mean russillo asks a lot of the right questions, and yeah, but interesting questions, and and I, and I think that I mean, I think that we're we're not used to a sports landscape in which you can ask question not have an answer. And that's what makes this whole conversation so difficult, right? I mean, there's there's a whole lot of there's a whole lot of weird duality in this. I mean, I think part of the reason why Durant, and I mentioned Kyrie Irving or getting it right now is because I I don't know what the I don't know that I don't I'm assuming the NBA doesn't handout rules, but what reporters can ask about. No. But they reporters seem to be comfortable asking about free agency because that's a conversation that we've. Having you know for years, but not asking LeBron about running a shadow government out of Los Angeles and trying to force a trade of one of his one of his, you know, one of his best friends when when one of his agents agencies other clients to his own team. And like, you said trade away, the, you know, the whole existing roster. You know, some I it's it's interesting that that, you know, the kind of question the kind of directed questions that that, you know, get the to get chosen. I guess I should say. Yeah. I mean, it's probably no, no different. You know, the the difference is the way those two guys handle the media. You know, probably the simplest answer us. The Durant thing is. However, you wanna say it it became a public story this year because he is teammate was pissed about. Yeah. So it's not like people are just speculating this happened. And to the russillo question. It's interesting. I mean to me the one thing is it's it's sort of weird for the media to complain. Because as you pointed out all these hits are accruing to us. Right. We are becoming you know, all the more speculation the more I want outta here. The more I want to trade that all becomes patriots that all becomes money for reporters because they get to cover it. They get to report on all that stuff including us here at the ringer. The other thing I'd say about it is it's it's weird that like win the Commissioner and the owners had most of the power of the NBA like when David Stern was worried about tattoos and corn rose, you know, make plays where suits and all that stuff that the meeting the media did not do enough to stand up and be like this is insane. It's not that. No one did it. But not enough people that right? Stamkos like this is insane and quasi racist. But now we have to stand up and like. Now that the players finally kind of took control. Now, we have to stand up and say it now's the time. It's incumbent on somebody's got to say something. Yeah. I know I'm not saying he's implying that. But it just feels weird that now's the time that the media must stand up to the and and and and talk about what what's going the NBA because it just didn't happen in the other eras. And it was worse. You know, why think you're right? And I think that's why it's a I mean, I said it's a question with an answer. Because I think that we should acknowledge that. I mean, I think it's fair to acknowledge that it's you know, it unsettles the league. And it's and it's you know, just sort of mind boggling in any number of ways. But there's not a solution. That's implicit in that, right? I mean, it's like the like again, we keep going back to the journalism aspect of it. But like really the only your I struggled to find I struggle to imagine a mechanism that would prohibit, you know, Kevin Durant's agent from having a drink with the Knicks general manager and having this sort of come up offhandedly. You know last summer. So really all you the only I mean, the only solution is to for journalists to not write about it. And I know I was when making the case for the three second rule, but the, but I mean, honestly, it's it's either you you you kind of covered or you don't. Yeah. I think that's it. Can we have like a five minute discussion about Jeff visas? Yeah. Absolutely. I don't have a ton to say about this. But I feel this is our zone. We should say something about this. If you weren't following Amazon founder Jeff Bezos wrote in a medium post last week that he was made an offer. I couldn't refuse quote unquote, that offer was from AM, I which owns the National Enquirer and the offers. Specifically was that AM? I would sit on text messages relating to be zas affair with Lauren Sanchez, including one text that showed his quote semi wrecked. Manhood and another Texan showed his quote top of his pubic region. And what am I wanted was for bees us to release a statement, affirming that his party's quote, have no knowledge or basis for suggesting that AM is coverage was politically motivated or influenced by political forces. This is referring to a number of things including the mysterious production of an AM. I ninety page glossy magazine about Saudi prince Mohammad bin so. Oman before the prince's visit to the United States. Quick thoughts. One as has been said many times on Twitter too, many too many citations for the for the trailing footnotes here. These is a one off because Jeff visas is really rich and can hire good, lawyers and spokesmen and all that other stuff and two is an also a one off because this this solution to the blackmail the alleged blackmail from am I requires you to admit a lot of really embarrassing stuff in public. Yes. For photos to get out that maybe people wouldn't feel comfortable with admitting in public and good for him for standing up to this. Yeah. But it's only gonna work, right? If you're willing to be like, okay here, the most here, some incredibly embarrassing things about me that I'm willing to let these guys print. Yeah. I think that's right. I mean, I think that you know. If it's easy to it's easy to side with Jeff visas here, and I find myself doing so, but really this is just more. I mean, the lesson here is this is the power of you know, plutocracy or whatever I mean, he's not this is not a guy who's running for office is not a guy who's particularly subject to a aboard in his company mean, he's he's the richest man alive, and you, and it wouldn't matter if they published all this stuff to it would not it would not probably change his life to any great degree until he has the power to stand up. And he has he has the power to do. He has he has the. Yeah. The power to do the right thing in this case in a lot of other people in his situation wouldn't have that. But yeah, it said this is it's. It's a very it's a very very weird story and watched it unfold, I just don't understand. I still can't require wrap my mind around what the inquirer was doing by. I mean, sending all these emails through formal channels in the whole thing was just very bizarre. Let's do the notebook dump because I have couple of things I want to get to you. I have what might be the worst sports politics. Tweet in human history outs. Mac visor political of the Washington Post. Did you see all a lot of the democratic women were wearing white to the state of the union last week is an attempt to make statement, including Nancy Pelosi, visor writes, the women all in white is a pretty potent image of voting the suffrage movement and reminiscent of white out games in sports where the home team attempts to convey a unified message. This is our house that has a picture of Penn State football fans all wearing white. Wow. I don't think that's the right metaphor. I don't think that's the way it sports metaphor. I think that might be too many words for a tweet. There's also that. So your problem is tweet just a little wording. I just think you I think once you once you're onto the third clause of a sentence. You're going to get in over your head. You know, you're going to get out ahead of your feet or whatever. I mean, there's there's you're gonna it's it's a problem. I don't think it's like when sport teams randomly and cut a disturbingly till all their fans to wear white. I just don't think that know exactly what it is also from the state of the union. You saw David this via headline in L that said Nancy Pelosi's iconic pity clap will sustain me for days. What what bought wrote that headline? Incredible, right? My God, we should get like a blue ribbon for SEO there. That's nothing on Twitter. Matt Bors notes that Pelosi said after the speech, she didn't mean, the clap sarcastically was actually Joe applauding one of Trump's policies at the speech. So so much of that and back. To canonizing, Ruth, Bader Ginsburg. Sorry, if you were if you take if you take a ten minute break from notorious RPG content, please get back to work. We had yet. Another weird thing from Stephen a Smith. This was he said of Dwayne Haskins the Ohio State quarterback that he has more quote more of a runner than thrower. And as m QB's Robert Clem co pointed out his rushing stats last year were seventy nine carries one hundred eight yards at one point four yards of Kerry. I I saw some I saw some headlight about this man off on camera was people saying Stephen a Smith. It is Stephen a Smith done so many of these mess ups that he is sacrificing his ability to talk about the NFL. It hasn't happened way. Talk about football. Right. He probably wouldn't make this kind of mistake about the NBA. I I have a different take which is I think debris phrase from Jack. Shaefer. There's kind of strange new respect for Stephen a Smith in the world right now. And he is kind of triumphed over whatever. Queasiness people have about the opinionated industry of unionist industry. Like, nobody else they'll feel this way about you know, Bela's and same way. They don't feel this way. Though Kellerman any of these guys he somehow can just play through. And it's fine. It's totally fine. And I just don't think people I think Stephen A just has kind of one in a way, and I didn't I don't know how it happened. But you know, I think that guy is just like whether it's he's been around so long or whether it's like people judge that have all the opinions. He does like he has the highest rate of like, this is a good idea. Yeah. I think that there's weirdly something less offensive about a utterly incorrect opinion than a bad opinion. You know, I mean to see to see another talking head on ESPN just say something that you just think is sorted dumb or silly or. Beside the point. That's what kind of it. I like, I can you know, that's what will raise my hackles. Anyway, when someone just get something wrong, it is just sort of whole areas. But that's all it is. It's just like I mean, listen Stephen Smith spends twenty three and a half hours of the day on the air. You know? I mean, he's he's gonna he's gonna slip up at some point. He's got he's got his first day. He's got his giant radio show is they have him on get up. Now, it seems like half the time. I turn it on he's on the screen whether or not he's teasing his show or not. I mean, they're just he's just he's doing basketball commentary, obviously this football. He's doing boxing stuff. I mean, it's just he's all over the place. And I think that he's an easy target for a joke. But I think that you know, I think that even I think that everybody is aware that this is this is this is what happens when you're over extended. We we appreciate him as an entertainer, not as, you know, not as a necessarily like expert mind on every single subjects usually broken take is better than hot take broken. Take. Is definitely preferable to me. David, ed. Don Virk got fired last week. Oh, yeah. ESPN host Andrew Marshon broke the story in the New York Post saying that apparently ESPN came to the conclusion that Virk did leave some some semi embarrassing information about major league bet ESPN's relationship with major league baseball to the site off on answering investigation. Quick investigation followed, and he was sort of summarily fired. I got a couple of thoughts about this one is I imagine that this only reached this level of crisis. Because it's information about an ESPN partner rather than information about ESPN itself. I don't think he'd care that much about. But some of the stuff the second thing is I think it's fine for us all just to say at nonfiction have been fired. I don't wanna play ESPN fantasy HR department where. Oh, you know, what would have been right for him is like two weeks suspension. You know, that was what I was. I know, of course, I don't think that somebody who wants media personalities to talk to me. I don't think any suspension would be good idea. Should I think I think I think he should be allowed to talk? I think they should all be allowed to talk. I don't think any of them should be suspended. I just want to just want to me when we're thinking about this like Adnan Virk made a mistake or I don't think he made a mistake. I don't think he did anything wrong, and it's not my responsibility to enforce ESPN HR pulse. So just on the record. My my opinion is no suspension for EDNA Virk zero nothing get his job back. There you go. How about you, Dan? I co-signed that. I mean, I think that there's there's matters of decorum and everything else. But I, you know, at the at the end of the day, I think I'm especially when especially in this sort of subject matter. I'm just sort of a did, you know? Truth nihilist. I mean, I don't think anything should if you're if you're saying something that is true. Then that's, you know, especially in in in the context of germ in reporting in journalism. They I it's hard to it's hard to really ascribe to much fault. Now, I get it. If someone talks to you, and they're just like, I know we know you've been on the phone with this dude a lot and when you're getting a little bit too chummy with them just like lay off for awhile. You know what I mean? That's that's a conversation that that, you know, employers can have with employees or were you know, managers can have with their reports. And you know, I I understand if someone needs to take action. But, but yeah, I mean, this does not seem like I mean, this seems like. Like, you said specifically about the MLB thing, it seems like somebody made a call that they wanted to see some wanted to see some sort of punishment take place, and and you know, it's all really unnecessary. That's a press box this week, David shoemaker, and I will be back with more heavily footnoted. And lukewarm Tech's about the media next week. Jim Cunningham producer. Chris Almeida hopes hopes the research David next week, buddy. Interesting. Or you. Who are you David? Just sort of. Truth nihilist. I don't think anything. Why is it when we want to go somewhere where selfish etcetera? Again, that's sort of thing like charming here from like an Esquire feature writer in fifties. You know, I mean, but it's not that all becomes h. I would just just to note the whole thing was very bizarre. Yeah. I think that's right. Let me tell you David about kava up your remote control clutter with the control center by Covault. Plug in your streamers Soundsystem cable satellite or game console and control. Everything connected. To your TV with one easy to use voice control remote shop now and get forty percents off control centre with promo code press box. That's fifty nine dollars and ninety five cents. Forty percent off the regular pricing of ninety nine dollars ninety five cents service plan required for forty five days free control center is available at C A V, O dot com and best buy control center by cough. Oh, one remote that does. It all.
Russian Bounties, Protest Rebrands, and Listener Mail
"From the Ringer I'm Tyler Times. When I spoke to Nfl Star Cam Newton in January. Is Moss that was clear. Whole in Charlotte. Cam will be getting that wish. He was released by the Carolina Panthers in March. Cam is a complex figure. Am I interested in goes far beyond his exuberant smile and transcendent style play. Cambric glass ceiling in American athletics. A sentence will place in the sport there. Few Black quarterbacks reach. Mega his fall. That much more dramatic. Over the past year I've traveled the country, speaking of coaches and teammates, friends, and family or borders in even briefly, said a man himself. Trotta, unravel the enigma that is Cam Newton. Uncover contradictions at. EVERY, turn! How can the hard work on scene depicted as a band leader? How can a franchise icon with the NFL? MVP is Super Bowl appearance on his resume. Be So abruptly cast Cy. NFL Show presents camp chronicles. Series Premieres Monday to Thirteenth Hello, media consumers. You've got the press box. Bryan Curtis David maker of the ringer here. We got a lot of stuff for you today. We're GONNA talk about the country band formerly known as the Dixie chicks and the art of the post protest rebrand. What do the chicks lady Antebellum in the State of Rhode Island? All have in common will do some listener mail glued into question. What do we think about Bob Woodward? Wanting to out Supreme Court Justice Brent Kavanagh's an anonymous source. All that plus David guesses a strain pun headline in the overwork twitter joke of the week but David. Let's begin with unbelievable story that came down late on Friday. which is about Russian intelligence, offering bounties to the Taliban for the killing of American troops. Twenty American troops were killed in combat in an F. Ghanistan in two thousand nineteen, at least one of those deaths was believed to be related to the bounties. American intelligence has been investigating the values for about eighteen months. The White House has reportedly been discussing the issue since March the. New York Times as Charlie. Savage Eric Schmidt and Michael Schwartz right officials developed a menu of potential options starting with making a diplomatic complaint to Moscow and demanded it stop along with an escalating series of sanctions and other possible responses nevertheless, and I know this is going surprise you. Trump has denied being briefed. About this major foreign policy event. Here's a trump tweet. Intel just reported to me that they did not find this info credible, and therefore did not report it to me or the VP, possibly another fabricated Russia hoax maybe by the fake news. At New York Times books wanting to make Republicans look bad. I. Guess we start by by asking. What do you make of President? Trump's claims not to know anything about this story. This seems like the appropriate time for something from the soundboard. We had like a sad sad trombone or slide whistle. I mean it's. It's clearly bullshit. I think that. A lot of this story is developing today. Trump's tweeting about it and it seems like. There's ongoing reporting going on every time. I! Turn on the news channels. So. It's hard to speak with any sort of real confidence although. I kind of feel like the past four years have given US A. Skeleton of confidence to believe implicitly. Every single aspect of this report is story right I. Mean like I I would assume that even the skeptics of the quote unquote Russia Russia hoax, the more trump supporters, maybe not the most die-hard them would hear the story and just kind of be like Oh. Ah, that makes sense right like it all sort of fits neatly into a into the structure that we already have. Has. been built over the past several years now maybe I'm. My vision is blurred through because of my various political bias, but it really does seem like. There's no way that trump didn't know about it and if he ends as what people keep saying over and over again. On the news and writing everywhere else if he didn't know about it, that's almost more damning than if he did. Because the implication, there would be that his. Intelligence sources intelligence apparatus didn't feel, didn't we're confident enough to tell him about it or maybe more pedestrian? A pedestrian answer is that it was in the president's the president's Day daily briefing, but he wasn't presented to him orally, and so he counts. That is not being aware that he wasn't aware of it. Regardless? There's no version of this story that is particularly flattering to the president and I'm not sure his denying it. I the only benefit that I give the denial doesn't really help them at all. Although I think he clearly thinks that it helps them, and so it's clear that he's bullshitting. That's all yeah, and I don't know if we're just trying to split hairs here if that's what he's trying to do, because this is a big big big international story, right so even the odds that it would just be like a line item in the president's printed daily briefing that nobody would bother behave. Show just WanNa make sure you see the bid here about the Russians putting bounties on American soldiers like. It seems like that would come up ORLA. Did you like by the way how he also tagged at New York Times Books Yes in this denial. So it is the Book Review Desk at The Times. He has somehow angry with not the mount the ace reporters in the section I thought Pamela Paul has got something to answer for. Let me tell you I thought this Thomas. Goku tweet was really good, says on the Russian Taliban thing, it seems more or less equally likely that trump wouldn't sit through the daily briefing about it got briefed, but didn't understand it got briefed, but didn't WanNA think about it didn't get brief to protect his feelings. There's no real point in arguing about whether trump quote knew about it Yeah, I think that's right. I think that the the one sort of I don't know the the the version of that of those events that makes me most anxious is the one where and it's one that I am fully prepared to believe in probably do believe that. Our. Government intelligence agencies are deliberately kind of like slow walking a lot of this information before it gets to trump to see how much they can do on the matter, and they're normal channels before they have to deal with the presidential stonewalling, or whatever else that they fear. They're going to face there. Because, there's no, there's no clear. If that were true, there'd be no better symbol of just a totally broken. White House, but yeah I don't think there's much of it is I. Don't think that distinction matters terribly when it comes to trump's culpability. Yeah, don't don't give trump a deep state avenue to get out of this. They were slow walking it to me. You know they just there too scared to give it. No, no, no, you know we. This is where the blame should reside. By the way the I was never briefed. Strategy is not working. We should also know trump. Getting heat from checks notes Senator Liz. Who asked? Why didn't the president vice-president? Why weren't they briefed? Wa was the Info in the PB the President's daily briefing. Who did know win win and and what has been done in response to protect our forces and hold Putin accountable. trump has also been tweeting furiously about anonymous sources. as big an enemy in the trump mind as just about anything for domestic. We should also note this Dave and I thought this when I was reading these stories. Media Wise. What's it going to be like when we have a new president? And everything that President does in the Oval Office. Every single day is not immediately leaked to the new. York Times or The Washington Post. I think we're underrating that feature. Of the trump administration. That we find out. Like seemingly I, don't want I don't want to put a percentage on it because we really don't know, we find out so much on a daily basis both big information, small information that just happens sometimes seemingly minutes after it happens, and that is almost certainly not going to be the case with any other president. Yeah, and I'm interested to someday find out how to square the circle between trump surrounding himself with the most like sort of. Nonfunctional peons, and and then also being like the craziest leakers of all right. I mean I. Guess, this is a story where? You can make sense I mean you you can kind of. See how it was probably leaked by sources outside of the White House released. There's some of the reporting certainly stemmed from there. And it's a national security matter. It's I mean it's really not that hard also connected to. Although this isn't the you know, the military a military branches we traditionally think of it I mean we have seen A. Tidal wave of. Military. A significant military figures coming out and speaking against Donald Trump lately so I don't know if this is sort of part of the again, don't want to give trump the avenue, but the establishment sort of the military and intelligence establishment kind of working in conjunction getting this news out there. But how got out is? Is You know you're right were in? It's a very strange world that trump has created there And we're at times. It seems like. People are make Dr- I mean people are? kind of talk openly about. You know who's who jared source? Who Jared's people in the media and everybody else Stephen Miller It does seem like. You know it's a different world than we're used to. And who knows what it's GonNa feel like when this all dries up. What's probably like an incredible combination rate? I mean you probably have like career government people who are appalled at what they at what they see as the stewardship of American government generally you have some sort of career Republican types who are appalled trump. You. Have as you say just Kinda ran. Does who get in government and wind up being these incredibly leaky sort of public servants, because they're just happy to be there, you've got people like Evonne Ivanka. And Jared who have their own motives right for leaking to the press or having some channels, shall we say to the press to put them in a good light, and then you have trump himself, who often confirms disputed stories on the record right when he was saying slowdown testing. You know that speech the other day. At everybody said well, he was just kidding when he was talking about slow Desi, then trump on the record was like no, no, I was kidding. Actually, I was actually being serious, and all that adds up to this just critical mass of. Leakage and this kind of real time portrait of the White House and there's also the aspect that we've talked about many times. Before of the People Lindsey Graham types who who say they have to go on Fox News. We get the president's attention I, mean if anybody, even even a trump supporter, even a tump trump operative in the White House feels like. Like the only way to make headway in something that they think is necessary is to leak it to the new. York Times The Washington Post then that that might be another byproduct of this just like totally dysfunctional presidency. Yeah, it's having presidency in public writing. You know just sort of not only not only public proclamations ceremonial things that we're used to. To with any president, but having like your thoughts, your, you know random things that come out of your mouth, your fears, your anger, all that stuff just being served up to the public on a daily basis. It's truly weird and truly unique. I think at least at this at this level right rainy beleaguered politicians eventually, everything starts leaking because the motives of. Of people are like, let's get it out there because I'm GonNa have another job anyway. This seemingly started since day one here's here's a funny one over from over the weekend. way down the list of importance but Robert cost over the Washington. Post tweeted. Trump has been asking advisers if he should stick with his current nickname for Joe Biden Sleepy Joe. We're trying to coin another moniker such as swampy. Joe Or creepy Joe. The president's not convinced that sleepy. Joe Is particularly damaging. Well No I. Mean Sloppy Joes in the bowl so I I would I would see. How would you would reach that conclusion? You know. Maybe this is one of those times where you just you know. Get trump a biden nickname taskforce together and just let you know trump work on that for the next three months. Pinson whoever else can go about dealing with corona virus and racial unrest in Russia, putting hits on our soldiers. But. Yeah, that's. I. Don't know Swamp Swampy Joe. That might be the worst nickname I've ever heard swampy Joe Creepy Joe I. Think is actually I mean. Swampy Joe sounds like a sandwich is in either. Of It it sounds really really strange by the way in this scenario, talk about where we do. The trump nicknamed thing and public Lee Graham Kgo on Fox. News and say I. Don't think swampy Joe's good idea. Let's let's try creepy job. Just if I were advising the President Creepy Joe might actually stick so why don't be Joe? Does zony sounds like the sandwich shop? That's a block off your like university campus that has like funny names for everything swampy Joe's Cosby. Creek greedy Joe might have some legs, but I. Don't know that it does point. It really matters especially if you know. Trump's. Trump's inability to do more than one thing at a time I think was like artfully disguised, or people were able to pass that four years ago, but I think the fact that there's any I mean I just the stories that he cares about nicknames at this point or sort of inherently damning. He can't get anything done, and he spent time talking about Joe Biden's moniker. There is a small the small matter of the pandemic. Sweeping across the country and we're words, road testing swampy Joe in creepy Joe with your advisors in the White House, all right David. Time for the overwork twitter joke of the week where we celebrate a gag. That was so obvious. But all of media twitter made it at exactly the same time. Send your nominees to at the press box pod. Were they are always gratefully received. We're going to talk in a minute about how the dixie chicks have rebranded themselves after the protest as the chicks. Just the chicks. Over were twitter joked to right the board of Dixie cups currently running focus groups on their rebrand to a new name cups. Thanks to Steve wholesome fell. That was almost a Jay Leno joke. I'm glad dixie Carter is not here to live through the. Washington Post headline about the corona virus. Quote making men feel Manley in masks is unfortunately a public health challenge of our time. This was a column about. How certain men were not wearing masks and it was a whole, it was wrapped up in being a man. Somehow, it was an overworked twitter job to call this toxic masculinity. Wow, wow, that's a good one all right. Thanks to James Beard for that one and David have. You been following these shifting release date. Of the time Bending Christopher Nolan movie Tenet. Yes, yes, mostly the ringer slack, but yes, it was an over twitter joke to right. Christopher Nolan announces. The release of tenant has been pushed back to December, two thousand seventeen. That's. I just can't. Can I put a filter on twitter just to tell me when we have a released like I don't need to know any of the machinations and actually screw that just a just a filter to tell me like two days before the movie comes out that. Yeah Yeah that is. That is all the content I need to consume about ten. It's release date. I'm going to be just fine. I told you I totally agree. I'll be I. mean listen if we if we can safely go to a theater to wash it. That'll be a great day for America and the world, but until then let's just worry about staying healthy. You made a joke about ten it. You could have made about memento or inception. Congrats, you made the overwork twitter joke of the week David. Let's do the note booked up but I stand by for a trailer from the newest. On the Ringer podcast network. I'm so excited to introduce the Bakari Sellers podcast in partnership with the Ringer. We're tackling the issues of the day through interviews with high profile, guests and conversations with a rotating panel of the country's best and leading thinkers influencers in writers, you know I'm not only an attorney and a former elected officials. Sometimes you see me on CNN. I'm a new author of a New, York. Times bestselling book, vanishing country, but But, now we're introducing the Bakari Sellers podcast, and we're gonNA cover everything from the twenty twenty election to sports and culture to the larger movement for racial equality in the United States. We're GONNA. Have some of your favorite quarterback? Some of your favorite politicians? Some of your favorite athletes writers, singers actors actresses the Bakari. Selous podcast would debut on Monday June twenty ninth, listened Freon, spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. David in the notebook dump. The country crossover band known as the dixie chicks. Put out a new song last week. Now knowing the way, the band has used their voices over the years. It's no surprise that March march is a protest song. Here's a little bit of it. Producer. thinking. Scott. True, You, Now, March march is not just a song, David. It's part of what we might call a post protest rebrand. The dixie chicks have followed in the footsteps of Disney. Splash mountain and some of the other people and things that have tried to be more sensitive after the George Floyd protests. So the band dropped a reference to the confederacy of the old south. They are now known as the chicks. Just the chicks. What do we think of that? How. Win When Lady, antebellum dropped the antebellum from their name. And then decided to go by lady. I thought that was a good move. I'm not. Man! I hope I'm not like betraying any sort of like. You know pro southern upbringing bias of mine, but like The dixie chicks are like I. Know there still making music, and this is like this is a this is a very important gesture for them, but they're are band of the past, and I feel like I'm not. I feel like I didn't need this to the degree. I would have needed if they were cranking out top ten hits every year. They do have an album coming out next month. No, no I know there's still an active band. I know they still exist. They're just not quite as vital as Lady A. Lady as has been. It's been a couple years since they're real. They're real potency, but like you know they're better than lady. A though yeah, and they actually I mean. Here's the thing right back in two thousand and three. The one thing everybody knows about the band note is the chicks is in two thousand three Natalie maynes lead. Singer spoke out against the Iraq, war. And I had to go back and look it up. She spoke out before she spoke out before the war even started. So, this was not that massive sort of antiwar sentiment that happened a year or two later right and really sorta stirred up the Democratic Party. She was way out ahead of that. and. The ban was too, but it to me. It's SORTA telling about. You know certain progressives that that was such an obvious idea to. Speak, out about. And then having the name Dixie in your having the word Dixie, excuse me in your band named didn't really register at all. For another fifteen little more than fifteen years. And I know I know whenever this happens like. This is just like t ball for conservatives on twitter like Oh look at this. You know this is so stupid, but Kinda don't. They have to change the name. I mean these are these women are interested in Progressive Causes Right? There's true they want to. They want to talk about this. Would what do you do? Yeah, well, you've won me over I mean. I don't feel I was very convincing, but you know. No. I don't. I think I think for you know we have we have. Their country has a long history of bands changing their names. You you're allowed to change your name Jefferson. Airplane became Jefferson starship. You, you know you can find new things I think it's just I. Guess I guess in some sense. It's more momentous to just completely. Just. Remove that part of the name and the awkwardness that remains is sort of part of the statement right the fact that it's just a checks which has its own baggage, which doesn't exactly sound like the thing. You would want to name your band. I mean unless you're like. In the London punk scene of the Seventies. You know maybe just that makes us. Stop and think every time we see it, and that's and that's part of the kind of the victory of what they've done i. think what is telling about this in the Dixie, chicks have been around under that name in various forms since nineteen eighty nine is the way the old confederacy. Sim, symbolism just kind of hung around at this low level. You and I are both from Texas. We know this unquestioned writer unquestioned by. Let's say lots and lots of people you know this was in the name. Wasn't like this is this? This was not subtle. You know, and and again no matter what the band's politics were another quite quite different, but. The band never thought to question this stuff. And I just think. I think that's just so telling you know, and that again is part of the point we're making about. People are making about statues right and other things like that right? This stuff has just been sitting out there in the open. And it's pretty amazing. You mentioned lady Antebellum. Yeah a lady a now. This to me is truly awkward. The grammy winning country band by the way I don't ever need to hear something described as a grammy winning country band I'm just GONNA assume. That they've all everybody's just WANNA grammy at some point or another the grammy winning country Band Lady. Antebellum announced on instagram. They're changing their name to lady a quote. We are regretful and embarrassed to say that we did not take into account the associations that way down this word that is antebellum, referring to the period of history before the civil war dot dot dot. We feel like we have been awakened. Now over the last few weeks David. We've been talking a lot as a society about how our high school education did not teach us a lot of things about history However you and I went to high school together. You and I did learn what Ante bellum means in high school. And we did learn that was about. It was predominantly used to mean the period before the American civil war. It was not about the period before the invasion of Grenada, but that is not what it was as clearly not with the Spanish. The idea that you just had no idea what this referring to is to me somewhat implausible and also lady. Annabel I remember when Lady Antebellum came out There's a there was a kind of odd attention at least for me, kind of built into the name I mean. MEAN! It's not like lady antebellum was like that I mean maybe that was the name of a steamship or something that we were not aware of, but it's not like. This is a turn of phrase that people you know, say and like the dixie chicks. It's not like it doesn't have that. It doesn't have that you know that little rhyme built into it. There's no reason to paired lady antebellum. Well I guess even if there were a reason for at one would think that one of the three leads of this band might have searched wikipedia. They got their name in two thousand six. This wasn't you know the long distant past rate the idea that they like the only became aware of it now is a little bit hard to believe but Kudos to them doing it. rob are villa wrote a piece for the ringer when when it came out and. When this when this transpired. And I do think that there's this is all sort of everyone should read. This is sort part of this shift in the country music world that we're seeing in other places like Nascar. We discussed last week and and. Other more sort of entrenched quote, unquote southern as a pieces of of American culture. Where just sort of hand waving? And get paying lip service to. Low Key progressive progressivism isn't going to do it anymore right, and so in that sense I mean clearly. That's why lady Jane's their name, and that makes the case. Conjunction with you said for the dixie chicks as well. It's not a can't be. You can't just have L. Cool J rap on your song. But the confederate monuments are cool, right not that those who were the same person, but the genre the culture overall. It's in need of of you. Know a harder turn. Yeah, and I think you're just putting out this vibe that references all these things, and even if it's just the word antebellum right, you were vibe as a band, your vibe off that for more than a decade. Right even if you don't understand if you claim to not understand what it means. Sir Seems like you're sending a message to people and messages again had not been thoroughly examiner examined enough until this point now. Their name change got complicated. So the band says we're. We're lady. A WE'LL TURNS OUT. There's a sixty one year old Seattle Blues. Singer who is black, who was already lady a? She's used the name for twenty years. Put out several albums. She is also according to a rolling stone article. Share, encourage you to read. An activist has written a song about Trayvon Martin. So in order to not cause offence. A band appropriated the name of a black blues singer, who wrote a song about the killing of Trayvon. Martin good job by you. Lady A. Lady I don't know that it matters, but there are definitely like country music deejays calling them Lady A. That was read. This thing happened name apparently. Yes, but I guess no one stopped to pay attention to. That's in either so that whenever the original lady, a real name. Anita White tells rolling stone. If it mattered, it would have mattered to them before it shouldn't have taken. George Floyd deduction them to realize their name had a slave reference to it. She continues. It's an opportunity for them. That is the band to pretend. They're not racist or pretend. This means something to them. If it did, they would have done some research by the way the chicks had this issue to. There's a New Zealand band called the chicks, but They reached out to the New Zealand. Band apparently and it's. So. Just make sure when you're changing your band name. The final one I wanted to kind of cramming here. David is Rhode Island. Did you know that the official name of Rhode Island was the state of Rhode Island and providence plantations. No I did not know that that was a totally new one to me. has come under new scrutiny. The governor there has already banned. That name from official state documents in the state legislature is going to attempt to change the name completely. So Rhode Island will become Rhode, Island Full Stop I. Don't know if they need to check with any other states, but I think they're probably in the clear this time. Wow I idea. That's really crazy. You and me. Both Pal all right. Here's some listener mail. We, we only have one show this week, so we We pushed the listener mail button. Couple days early and got a lot of good ones. This is from our PAL Josh Peterson. What books are you to reading during quarantine? You know what I picked up. We were joking the other day about nonfiction books. We've pretended to have read and I still want that to be a segment at some point. And please check your email David because I may have already sent you a partial list I saw. But Patrick Radin kief say nothing has been recommended to me by like nineteen people, and they all recommend it, and they say no, I know everybody's read it, but it's really really good. So I. Have say nothing I'm excited I am actually going to read. A popular nonfiction book which I'm really really excited about this question comes from the immortal Byron fist. View could redesign major network. Sunday shows from the ground up. How would you improve them? With where do you even begin I mean we've we go through this all the time we're talking about relaunching sports shows relaunching. I mean what? Late night shows. The. Sunday shows just feel so stuck. You know I don't know. I kind of find it hard to imagine you would reinvent the wheel. They're just totally tearing it down and starting over and even then. I mean it's not like you're going to get. You know. David Brooks and Lindsey Graham to come on and like answer. Trivia questions. I mean you sweat whatever you do you. Is that what we wanted or no? I'm just saying the guests you could change the format entirely, but the guests are going to have the same like you know the same script so i. don't know I. Mean it's. I. I mean get. Do you have any ideas because give me started here I. don't I can't imagine it all well. It's so funny because that the immortal Byron Fist ask this because even this weekend I was thinking one weekend. We need to record the Sunday shows and come back and just do a whole segment about this. Just thinking about this because I feel this is something I only consumed via the ninety second long twitter clip that comes out Sunday afternoon. I have not watched shows you and I were both voracious watchers of these shows at different. Yeah, you're of media time because. Because that was kind of like where you found out about political news back in back in the Stone Age, but whatever I watch him and I think they've been a little bit better job of this i. always think like the Pundit Roundup to me is always just like these same people, the just kind of go from show to show to show and I. Think this is what I watch when I watch CNN's like Oh. There's David Fromm again like on every shocked to win the can't we get the young like? There's a bazillion funny people on twitter right now. The right about politics. and. Why aren't they on the shows? It's a great question, shouldn't they? Shouldn't it be? Part of its at we're going to do. Let's do a whole segment about that, too. That's GONNA. Go right after nonfiction. We've pretended to have read Biden's digital divide. We'll just what a slot that into the into the lineup. This is sports radio listener thoughts on Kirk, herbstreit and Chris Fowler potentially getting the call up to Monday night football. If College football is canceled, this fall is there's a report out there a couple of reports that we don't call football at all. You would take your best college football team and let them call a season of pro ball. What do you think of that? I mean I. I think it's hard to argue that it's not worth a shot. I'm not sure if that's. You know what forget it i. mean everybody I mean the. It's worth that it's worth a shot. They're good at their jobs. You know, let them do. I mean I think they should try. Frankly thing they should do this stuff more often than not put people in like a position to to fail. You know by like putting him on a big platform like this. We should have guest announcers like this. Yeah, why not? Why not would anybody have been mad if they called week eight glass season? No not to say like. Let it be a special event. Let Them I mean whatever I mean it's it's it. I think it'd be I. think it'd be good. I was always wondering if they could do. Both you know because so essentially Fowler and herbstreet call the big Saturday night game on ABC ESPN right, which call right and and Herbie does the pre-game Show College Game Day on Saturday morning right, but you've essentially got the better part of two days until Monday night football. So. Would it be completely out of the question and say okay? Call the game on Saturday night. Take a deep breath. Even stay wherever you are Sunday morning fly to the NFL site, maybe a charter plane or something like that. Then you have all day to spend the NFL site and you call the game Monday night. Is that completely crazy like I dunno? Could you, do I mean you know you had buck and Aikman doing Thursday night football, and then a Sunday afternoon game? Now it's the same. It's pro football, so they're not having to learn a completely different. You know set of players. But that doesn't strike me. As completely insane didn't might was Michael's was now. Michael's like anti doing Thursday night football, or at least was in you know. He demanded a lot more money in the deal. Because of the amount of extra work, it would be I mean there's no denying that it'd be extra work on how much of that? Money but yeah. Yeah. I think it seems like it should be feasible. Right if someone said you can stop doing all your jobs and your your new job is calling a college game on Saturday and a pro game on. Monday I think in your head. He'd be like. Yeah. I can make that work. Yen especially if the pro game something that ESPN has taken forever to get right. That's a huge deal for Disney as a company because they WANNA. Be Way into the NFL when this new this new TV contract ever happens, which was sort of interrupted by the coronavirus, and showing the NFL that they want to put their best announcers at the network or two of their best team. Put it that way. the seemingly make a Lotta. Sense is from Sami, Clemens. Can you guys explain the rhetorical significance of trump's quote quote? Unquote Silent Majority I get the next connection is like some genius cone puzzle. If a majority makes a noise, but no one hears them. Do they really exist? Yeah I, mean there is certainly like an eight D. Chess, or whatever like aspect to it, but but I think there's I think that what? What what what what made trump's? Coalition or whatever really potent forest for years ago and what and what continues to make them? Significant. Is that there was this great sort of. If not silent than like you know. Under pulled or under under served the electorate. In America, but also I. Think it's it's the feeling. It's the same as part and parcel the whole drain the swamp thing it's like. You have to feel like you're part of this movement, even though it's a fake movement. And referring and even in the most dire moments when it seems like even your neighbors who had trump signs in their front yard for years ago. Are you know bitching about how bad he is? It being a president. If you're still pro-trump, it's reaffirming to feel like you're part of a silent majority, even though no everyone seems to be going to the direction, they're still this crowd. The that you're a member of that's what it is and I think the Nixon thing is so interesting. Right because Nixon got elected twice. But, as far as I can tell just about every other usage of this is somebody like trump, who is way behind in the polls trying to conjure this idea that there's this momentum? That is out there that the media is not picking up on covering. As a way of saying no, no, no, it's real is a really a competitive race. It's just the media's lying you right there. They're not be they don't understand this. They don't understand the true will of the people right so that's it's like really basic for somebody who's trailing. there's also this sort of sense of you know. It has it we could go. We could go beyond that and talk about the connections to you know. What is the silent majority want and all that stuff, but you know what's so funny about this particular duration of it right is when we see these polls about krona virus, right or about the way people feel about trump's handling of the pandemic of race relations. The majority is actually. Against Trump. If feels. He has a very large majority of Americans feels. He has mishandled these things yeah. So. This is probably one of those were just really doesn't exist at all. this is from lead Amanda 80.70. You guys have a take on Bob Woodward being so fed up with everything. He's outing. Supreme Court justices source. From over twenty years ago, so this comes from the Ben Smith column. The New York, times, it came out Sunday night. It was about the Washington Post more broadly, but what happened with Smith was able to figure out is that there was a Bob Woodward column? In the Post, publishing system. During the confirmation of Judge Brett Cavenaugh and let me read to you from Smith's column here Mr. Woodward was as planning to expose Mr, Cavanaugh. Because the judge had publicly denied in a huffy letter in nineteen, ninety, nine to the posed an account about Kenneth Starr's investigation of President, Bill Clinton that he himself that his cavenaugh confidentially provided to Mr Woodward for the book Mr. Cavanaugh served as a lawyer on Mr Starr's team. The article described by to post journalists read. It would have been explosive. Arriving as the nominee battled a decades old sexual assault allegation and was fighting to prove his integrity. The article never wound up running. So I guess the question is. It's. It's really complicated. Right, yeah! Because the question sort of is. Brick Cavanaugh was your source for this. Anecdote, or story or whatever it is this out? You granted him anonymity. Apparently, then cavanaugh goes through the motions. Of denying publicly. The account that Woodward had written. Am I reading that right? So he's so he gives the goods to Woodward. Woodward writes it, and then cavenaugh writes a letter to The Washington. Post saying that's not true. That's the chain of events here. That seems right not not denying I was the source for that, but denying that the that Woodward's writing was not true. I mean it's interesting to me. Because on the one hand, we can consider this of like Brett. Kavanagh's about to get a lifetime appointment to the Supreme Court right. So there are certain suspension of journalistic rules at that point, just to get the public and the Senate. Who approving him as much information as humanly possible right? That's number one number two is. Do you lose your anonymity that the writer granted you because you publicly rebuked the story that you helped the writer, right? That thing that triggers it like okay well. That's IT I a witten. Surprise me if the latter was. In somebody's journalism rule book. You know someone like Bob. Woodward has I'm sure as a very. Precise sense of of you know. All these things are are legislated at least his mind. And you know I mean. I don't think anybody would disagree that like separate from the disqualification and we were talking about. It's like you know if he had anonymously disclosed that he was part of like a murdering fingered the ringleader something like no one would say like. Oh well. You shouldn't bring that forward right that he. Actually if he did something like Danny's import to know about as a frame court justice, yes, and things that we can know that you can just toss the dos out the wind I. Don't know I. Don't know this is. It is interesting. It is interesting that that that that I mean it's. It's an interesting question. I don't I don't know the answer is though. Let me. Me just split. Let's just put it in slightly different terms here. Let's say I am a secret wrestling source and I give you the goods of what's happening in a major wrestling promotion. Okay, you protect my anonymity. You write a big article for the ringer. Article comes out K. it makes the wrestling organization look bad in some someway now if people come out and say Bryan. Bryan Curtis were you the secret source of David shoemakers article and I say Hell No never talked to that guy. I I would come with a million yards of that guy i. don't think that would be grounds to then expose my anonymity. No, I don't think so either that would be. That'd be an expert. It'd be assumed that you would do that in some in you. You know depending on what the story was about so I would be able to tell that lie in public, and you would protect my anonymity now. What if I came out and wrote this giant letter to the ringer? That's at David Shoemaker is completely full of crap, and these are lies. He is telling about this major wrestling company and everything in his article is wrong. Now that point. Would it? Would it then be okay? Hey Hey pal. You are publicly discrediting me and you told me all this stuff I. Think SORTA. SNIDE note from the editor in chief would probably suffice right sort of just like. Yeah Okay we okay Mr Curtis the ringer sand by its reporting and I like that would probably be enough, but. I would certainly feel the impulse to do that. Sure, and then the other question is. And then if you were running for this nomination Supreme Court. I wasn't gonNA quite ticket there, but the fact that this cavenaugh letter was written in nineteen ninety nine. And it's what twenty years later. This that that Kavanagh's coming up. If, it's a matter of will that cancels out the anonymity grand. Why does it? Why do you have to wait twenty years to cancel it out? Should she just do it in the moment? True very true, I guess I. Don't understand that either I I I think probably at the end of the day. I sorta vote for. For just for letting Woodward run the story, and it sort of Woodward wants to wants to burn a sources that sort of up to Woodward I think and and the public certainly. and the Senate certainly has an enormous need to know as much as they can. In a very short as we found out a very limited period of time fascinating question. This is from Car Sean. When there's breaking news, which anchor or TV personality do you most want to hear from? The major story happening David? You've got the cable dial at your disposal. My God Baras twitter. Who Do you want to hear the most from who do I want like who do I trust the most or like. Do you want in that Anchor Chair? I think kind of holding your hand and sort of you know taking you through a major event American life. This is now my answer, but remember when we talked about Chris Matthews for eight consecutive weeks on this show. Certainly hope that's not your answer, but. I'm just saying like if there's anybody that has the sort of like grandparent appeal that would make me feel comfortable. He's not, but he lets even even pre. No, no not. The least comforting person on television every possible respect. Yeah, no, no, I'm just trying to think if there's anybody I mean if the. You know the msel's as we would say. Tom Brokaw Peter at MSNBC Rollout Tom broke. Offer a certain situation, but but yeah, I don't know if there's anybody else that really fits that description anymore I mean at. This point is sort of like. You Want A. Sober! Almost like a like a data analyst. Like. You've Cornucopia Kornacki or like or like every or somebody who's just like down? You know just like I I have background. I have an ex like I I. I I know what I'm speaking, but I'm mostly reading information for you right now. Don't we want someone to throw it to Steve? Steve Kornacki is a love Steve Wacky. He's not the most comforting presence in the world. I think he's more like point at point of boards and stuff like that. Look at this county This is a credible right. You kind of want the you kind of want the anchor anchor person to kind of drag you through it right? Yeah, it's true I mean I. It's why does Jake tapper quite built like that I. Don't think of him and he can certainly do that. is Anderson. Cooper the vote on CNN. Generally. If you had to pick one person and he's, it might be the one. I will say go ahead. No, I was going to I was going to note no Chris, Cuomo disqualified. But but Anderson Cooper is I think my CNN the MSNBC vote. Who God we we push in the Brian Williams, button? I mean it feels like we'll be I. Sang that Chris as good I mean. Rachel maddow's really good when she's I mean she's very good in lots of ways but I don't have any problem with reading. You know no matter. Do Great on election night, and those those are those kinds of situations for sure I don't know I will say that with with the absence of a clear front runner. You know the. I. My mind immediately goes back to the way that I. Let me speaking of like. Breaking news the way that I the person that read to me the news that Osama bin Laden had been killed by US Special Forces was John. CENA. During a professional wrestling event, uh-huh, we have caught and compromise to a permanent end Osa Osama pin. I. Hesitate to say I don't think there's anybody that we've mentioned that I would prefer over John Cena. In a moment of great national significance I was about bring Bernard Shaw from the old days CNN. Who I saw on TV all right Johnson it is. Tie David. Shoemaker guesses the strain punt headline all right? Let's do it Thursdays. Headline about a JC Penney store that was spared from extinction was a penny saved. We also got a vote for penny. Wise pound, foolish fantastic. I guess this this blows up on JC Penney. Today's headline comes courtesy of jammed. Dad, it's from the Atlantic. It's column David about the of statue controversy that is ongoing here in the United States and elsewhere the author. Yes, means her Han makes an interesting argument quote. Towns and cities would hold a mass review of their monuments. Say every fifty years at that point, citizens would be tasked with deciding whether to maintain the memorials as they are reimagined them or remove them from the public square for good all right. Sir is proposing codified fifty year. Review period. Easy, this is easy. My mind trying to go to like bust, puns and stuff. This has got to be statue of limitations right? We're done here. Folks were done here statue of limitations. Thank you. About the quickest ever. Read down the document you sat. You wrote you type the word. Your Pun Word is statue so they you know I got an assist there, but yes, that was that was a good headline is like a network news with a read the teleprompter ahead of you and just pull that in and get that live for themselves statue of limitations. He is David Chiu Baker Curtis Research. By Chris Omega, Production Magic Erica's avant is an Jim Cunningham today. We're we're. We're fully loaded. We're off for the fourth of July holidays. The no show on Thursday have a fantastic week. However, you're celebrating or not celebrating. Join US back here. Monday more lukewarm takes about the media and other stuff. See that. Brian.
The Adam Moss Coaching Tree | The Press Box (Ep. 563)
"Hey, it's as Kelly and welcome to the ringer podcast network. Before you start the show. I wanted to tell you about our brand new podcast, call teatime. It's a biweekly pop culture show on the channel thirty three feet where me Kate Hollowell and Amelia weta Meyer have four minutes in each category to get out our strongest opinions about what's happening in the celebrity world at large the episodes air every other Friday afternoon, and you can subscribe on apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Oh, you are away from the press box. We considered replacing you with the disembodied David shoemaker voice by which I mean clips of David shoemaker from previous podcasts. They would just sort of talk to me over the air. What do you think about that idea? So far, I totally endorse. Do you want to see how it might have worked out if we continue the press box just with me, and your disembodied voice, please. Yes. All right, David here, we go. What if I asked you in a kind of bad southern accent? What it was like to have. And then raise your first job. Would you say you've been through? Hell, yeah. That's not bad. Right. It's almost like the realist. Okay. Okay. David. I'd like to talk about a new story that I wrote for the ringer dot com. This week more trash from Bryan Curtis and your your weakest ruined. I see. The real repartee. We have on air here. I don't even need to be here. This is great. All right, David. And here's here's the last one. I'm trying to kind of express the idea of apples and oranges among contentious issues in media. Can you help me explain that with a pithy phrase the holocaust denial and nipple are not the same thing. Really? That's perfect. That was a waste of my time. And it's really was great to have the real great, dad. The real David shoemaker back. We are the Arnold Schwarzenegger. Prank calls of media podcast is of the press box a part of the ringer podcast network. The press box is the media podcast. We are not allowed to dismiss BuzzFeed as a supermarket tabloid when the president of the United States has a relationship with an actual supermarket tabloid. We are Bryan Curtis and David shoemaker of the ringer. Welcome back. David Hayes, ju we're the show still here. This is amazing. There is still media news in the universe. You're gonna be amazed at that. It didn't just ain't as a beer while you were going thanks for keeping things going for a week while I was oh, we're glad to have you back. All right three big topics today. I we're gonna talk about that. Buzzfeed scoop or maybe non scoop the shock the world last week. We explain a high stakes journalism standoff. Second one of the great moments in NFL history was a Rams cornerback running into a saints wide receiver in the refs missing the obvious pass interference call we talk about being a referee inside the NFL panopticon and finally supremely loved editor at a moss says farewell to New York magazine, we talk about his career in the rapidly diminishing figure that is. The swashbuckling magazine editor plus our weekly notebook dump. And of course, the overworked Twitter joke of the week, but David shall we start with BuzzFeed? Yes, it's the biggest story. It is the most difficult story. We'll talk about this week because it's kind of in a holding pattern to review Thursday night. Buzzfeed reported that President Donald Trump directed his longtime attorney Michael Cohen to lie to congress about negotiations to build a Trump Tower in Moscow and that Michael Cohen told special counsel or special counsel, excuse me, Robert Muller about this the next morning. I ready tweet by near times columnist Charles M blow that stuck with me blow wrote that there are only two outcomes of the BuzzFeed story, and I'm quoting here one. If it's true the legal moral question of Trump's impeachment is a settled question. Now, the only hurdle is procedural and number two. If it's not true, BuzzFeed may not survive this. Well, we got to experience both one and two because on Friday morning, various news. Papers and CNN tried to match BuzzFeed story, which journalism terms means they tried to confirm it, they couldn't and then on Friday evening this special counsel's office, which never says anything publicly about anything issued a statement saying buzzfeed's description of these specific statements to the special counsel's office and the characterization of documents and testimony obtained by this office regarding my whole Cohen's. Congressional testimony are not accurate that's from Peter car. A spokesman for Robert our so David we are in standoff territory now journalism standoff territory, Jason Leopold and Anthony Cormet and BuzzFeed editor Ben Smith are having their been Bradley Woodward and Bernstein moment, we stand by our story. The special counsel's office has gone back to not saying anything, and we don't quite know. Who's right? Where are we? How would you make sense of the state of play at this moment in some ways? This is the perfect media story for. The age that we live in now because when all the dust settled earliest when the dust that has, you know, gone up has come down and settled so far everybody gets to believe exactly what they want to believe. Right. You know, if you are pro Trump or anti BuzzFeed, or whatever you wanna over you want to delineate that side of things the Muller investigation has, you know, dumped up a report all the cold water on this story that you could want BuzzFeed is fake news as they have been forever, particularly since they they published the Russia dossier, and this story is just more evidence. At the news media is out to get Donald Trump. I I guess there was the one oddity in that in the narrative is the is the insistent reliance on the Muller investigation as the arbiter of truth in the situation. But you know, we'll set that aside for right now. And then if you're on the other side of things or I in, and and you know, I would say there's a there's a huge portion of people who who were not. Nominally unbiased who are not necessarily pro-trump anti BuzzFeed. And you see this all over the news media on you. If you watch if you watch CNN or MSNBC, you'll see people who, you know, you'll see a segment about the about whether or not BuzzFeed, you know, about the problems with the BuzzFeed story book ended by segments that sort of take its content credulously, right? I mean that assume that that are conducting interviews under the assumption that there is some level of merit to the story that was reported. And I think that weirdly that is as perfectly as concise and perfect is at chosen blow tweet was it seems like we're sort of settling into a middle ground where you know. I mean, presumably there will be further information to come at some point. But in the meantime, you just sort of, you know. Buzzfeed is able to say, listen Muller. The team didn't say specifically what they took, you know, objection to and we're going to stand by a reporting and everybody else that just sort of left to make up their own mind. I think that's exactly where we should start with us. Because this was like the, quote if true moment of American journalism where everybody's spend a day talking about the story preface by the statement if true. Yet. The weird part was CNN the New York Times Washington Post could not match the story. So they're either left with not talking about what everybody is talking about or talking about it and potentially lending credence to a story that may not turn out to be true. Which is just such a weird position to be an an, and I think Ben Smith and all of his various he is the BuzzFeed editor has been all his various appearances has said these guys have broken lots of stuff they deserve to have to get the benefit of the doubt. Or at least deserve to have a lack of skepticism here. But it was just a it was after this. We'll turned on Friday night in the special counsel's office came out. And and you know denied at least some of the story. It was such a weird position to be in to to have that kinda hedged way of reality. But I guess in a way you're what you're saying. Is that does actually make it the perfect Trump story to right because this dire? Fire. Absolutely dire scenario, the president United States told his personal attorney to lie to congress instructed. But we are not quite sure if that is the case yet, right or absolutely sure. Yeah. And I mean, I think that there's you know, I think that if when you when you look at the way, I mean, the the reactions of rolled in there is a very sort of, you know, everything in the Trump era is is sort of the meta the way that he he interacts with the media. And I think that this is this reflects that as well. You know, I think that it was it was accepted at face value. I mean, honestly, it'd be BuzzFeed. The BuzzFeed news has has mean hasn't given us, you know, many many reasons to to not trust their reporting, you know, in there in this in this sort of in this Eugenia. So I understand why. But also, just the, you know, this is. Compared to the things that we know or that we or that we. Have great confidence to believe or true about Trump in about, you know, the Muller investigation. This didn't seem this did not seem unlikely. Right. I mean, this didn't see it was. I don't know how to exactly how to phrase this without seeing like without. Is feel without sounding like overly partisan. But I don't know that it's necessarily just go for it. I think I don't know that it's necessarily an insult to the president to say if he if he did not tell Cohen what to say in front of congress. It was only because he I mean, it was only incidental, right? I mean, this if I find it hard to believe he didn't give him some sort of coaching, you know, and I mean, and it unless they just hadn't seen each other for some grape Grint long period of time, which might be the case. I don't know. I mean, it's it. I think that I think that it's gonna be you know, it's going to be interesting to see what comes out of this. Now, there's have been some theories floated about how the story, you know, about what the where the story was actually sourced from an, and I I'm not sure how much of that really matters right now. I mean, what's what's what what is your? What is your take on on? You know, the the sourcing and the veracity, and then also, I guess, you know, we should. Talk about the fact that it's not just that other major outlets weren't able to to back this up. But there was know Ronan Farrow was out there early on saying. Yeah. Implying that he actually got the same tip. But he couldn't get the corroboration or or whatever else. Yeah. He'll must be put that. He didn't Ron right? That was that was the. Uh-huh. Tweet to me if the special counsel's office was Ronan Farrow, saying I run I was in that zone, but I didn't run this. Yeah. Well, that could have been as simple as I had one source but not to. Yeah. I'm he just he he seemed to he's whatever he seemed to right at that. Somebody was warning somebody that he put enough credence in was was warning him off it or you know, was saying this don't don't go there. Now there is nothing, you know, less trustworthy than a journalist who didn't get a scoop. Right. And that's you know, and and shitting all over someone else's reporting after the fact or in in Ronan case politely, disputing it. Is a great age old tradition journalism because this is when the shot and forte comes out, right? Everyone's a hero, except when journalists actually go to bars, and then they talk about their competition. Like, they're the worst people on her. So I don't I don't know how much stock to put on that. But that was the first album of me. I, you know, actually, I think the most the most interesting thing we can say at this point was of the procedural part of it of journalism because an all is this is what happens right is all the sausage making. Then comes out which was so one thing that came out was Email that Jason Leopold one of the reporters sent to Peter car. The who is the spokesman for the special council on Thursday afternoon. Right. This is a couple of hours before the story runs. He says Peter hope all is. Well, Anthony, Anthony, and I have a story coming stating that Michael Cohen was directed by President Trump to lie to congress about his negotiations related to the Trump Moscow project assumed no comment from you. But just wanted to check back Anthony cormier, and then Ben Smith. Were on CNN's, reliable sources with Brian Stelter? And this is what they said about that Email. As far as is a lovely spokesperson. We know we've we've dealt with him in the past numbers. It has never been my experience to get any kind of signal wave off go ahead from special counsel's office through that spokesperson is not the first time we've dealt with them. It's not it certainly probably will not be the last, and, but then he you should realize he's speaking as one of the reporters she was broken up in. There hasn't been a lot of breaks out of the special counsel's investigation. And we have been on the outside breaking these huge stories that have subsequently been confirmed in the black letter of court violence. That's absolutely what is interesting about. That Email is that it doesn't say it's as Michael Cohen directed by President Trump to lie to congress. Right. Would it doesn't say is that Michael Cohen told Robert Muller about that. And these specific things are going to be reported in this BuzzFeed article, right is that Michael Cohen told Robert Muller about that. And that Robert Muller got corroboration of that story through various documents and interview with Cohen etcetera, etcetera, right? So still ter- came out on his show in critic. Cise Email saying it just seems very casual to me if you're about to report this giant story and not again, not just the Trump directed Cohen to lie. But that Robert Muller, which is which is kind of like one of those it's gonna turn into he said, he said, no matter what. Right. But at Robert Muller knows this that there is something discoverable here. Right. Then what happened was that this one of these great weird, passive aggressive moments and journalism is car did in fact refuse to comment on it. But he sent a clip of Cohen's testimony or Kois Koizumi's Cohen's plea hearing back to the reporter. And it was one of these statements that in which Cohen did not say in the statement that Trump had explicitly directed him to lie as the Washington Post piece later put it right, right? But I will apparently he expected the reporter to read this and understand that he was. Passively warning him off the story or directing him off the story at which point the reporter, Jason Leopold writes back and says I am not reading into what you sent. And have interpreted it as an F Y two which corresponds correct, just an F Y. Now, if you're a little confused right now, please be confused because this is just one of those passive moments where no one is just coming out and saying, hey, don't write that. Or by the way, here is explicitly. What I am about to report. Do you have any comment on that? Or is this right or do you want to try to tell me, this is absolutely wrong? Right. And it just seems like and then now they're all these theories that the reporters are the BuzzFeed reporters are right. But they're just, but the the special counsel's offices making a very specific and partial push, you know, offering partial pushback to what they rotate. But it does seem that a lot of this could have been avoided had either party been more explicit in what they were talking about before publication. Yeah. I think that's right. I think that's right. As been Smith is continuing to ask the special counsel's office to clarify what they're taking objection to it. Does just underscore that like we're all sort of talking past each other. And this is not, you know, this is not a light conversation. You know, this isn't. Yeah. And he's right to push back on that. I just thought when Stelter asked him specifically about the wording of that request to the special counsel's office. His response was these guys have broken a lot of scoops and Leopold SCO authors response was this guy. Never gives us any information. Anyway. So we weren't expecting any kind of guidance from him on the story both of which are probably true. Yeah. But they don't exactly answer. The question here is that you know. If he he didn't exactly get a chance to deny a very specific allegations. So it seems from anyway from the emails we've seen right? This is where we are. I mean, this is the kind of stuff we can argue about. Yeah. And I think that you know, I mean going back to the the sort of zoom out. I mean, it there the buzz BuzzFeed argument was I mean argument buzz buzz, he'd story was certainly the Muller Muller team seems to be the only people who are actually pushing back on this story. Right. I mean, at least in in in the in the in their public statement, Cohen's lawyer alighted the question in a way in a very in a, you know, a very juicy sidestep rate. I mean in weight as if to imply that like, we're not going to answer this because all this will come out and do time. But is probably true, right? Nobody from the White House took any exception of this except for some just like folksy statement by Rudy Giuliani who can't seem to say anything true anymore late in the day. She finally came out and seemingly specifically push back on this idea. But they. Spent the day issuing non denial denials. Yes. Yeah. I mean, which is just wild right, which either means that they know it to be true. Or maybe even worse. They just all assumed it to be true. They're just wildly disorganised. I'm actually not sure what I mean who knows in their kiss. Yes. So I mean, but like I said if you if you want to assume that, you know, supposed to eat stories complete bunk. There's you have all the all the amunition you need to do. So I will say this impartial defensive BuzzFeed. There was Jim rumor column New York Times today, which sort of implied that this is it didn't exactly say it. But it quoted Bob Woodward sort of implying that this is an internet problem a problem of internet journalism. Woodward says I say to you on the record. I am thankful. I don't have to cover this story on a daily basis, meaning Trump and Russia the hydraulic pressure in the system is just so great the impatience of the internet. Give it to us. Immediately drive so much it's hard to sort something like this out. And then. Also, you know, there's the mandatory reference to buzzfeed's listed goals, which they run in tandem with their political journals. This just strikes me as an old journalism standoff. There's there's nothing internet e about this at all these guys seemingly reported a story in a very deliberate and old fashioned way. We are having as set a the the whole do you care to comment on this thing could have happened at any point in history. It's not not abnormal for them to be putting that, you know, sending that out hours before the story published we will do that all the time or minutes before a story is published and the pushback from the special counsel's office also seems very normal. It's just I mean, the stakes are obviously incredibly high the charges incredibly big and in other potential impact on BuzzFeed is incredibly big whether this all holds together or not an individual reporters. But this just seems like regular journalism thing to me. This seems to have nothing to do with the internet and nothing to do with buzzfeed's position. In anything this could this could easily just as easily be a newspaper old-fashioned newspaper in the same position. Yeah. I think that's true. I think that I mean, it's funny. The the joke about listings was was also the the Saturday Night Live take from weekend update. I mean, it's it's an obvious joke to make and I think that, you know, as as to people who work for, you know, an online magazine, it's it's easy to to be sympathetic toward to buzzfeed's journalistic. 'cause right. I mean, it's you know, there's we you. I mean, I I remember you in the various places you've worked in the past trying, you know, having having moments where you had to insist upon the legitimacy of whatever outlet you're writing for. To whoever you were trying to get an interview with you know, I mean, it's it's not it hasn't always been as an easy case in especially for someone like BuzzFeed who made their name, it's not just explaining what the website is explaining that. It's explicitly not what you think the website is, you know, insisting on the legitimacy is usually just in the Email. You say a reporter with the ringer, comma, a sports website, Sandra Lous. Yeah. But I mean, but, you know, it's it's I mean for for BuzzFeed that is sort of that that perception is sort of baked in, you know, and so you have to work the I mean, I'm not saying they they didn't. But you you have to kind of like bear in mind that you're going to have to work doubly hard, you know, to make sure that you get you get everything. Right. You know because it because the dismiss it because people will be dismissive immediately. If there's any implication that you're less than correct, right? They'd just go to the old BuzzFeed jokes, by the way, can can weaken for a special award on Jeffrey Toobin, we're talking about people may be jumping the gun to say impeach Trump. It's over the Trump presidency. You know, if true, the Trump presidency is toes kind of thing can we give a special word Jeffrey Toobin, and this is the actual Jeffrey Toobin to people within the last week spot. Not the guy on CNN who kind of looks like Jeffrey Toobin, but he's also on the if you know what I'm talking about David anyway, Jeffrey Toobin goes on CNN Friday after the special counsels statement, and he says this I just think this is a. Bad day for us. And you know, there's no I mean, I don't know. Ryan disagree a little bit. I, but I just think you know, it reinforces every bad stereotype about the news media. Do we can we can we just wait a little bit on that? We just wait until if if and win the story is false to bail on a fellow journalist, you we don't. She doesn't know that this is wrong. Yeah. I mean, we government push back. And this is a bad day for journalism, really. I mean that just feels that the felt awfully soon to make a big statement. We've we've cataloged a bunch of his CNN statements on here. But that just that felt like that felt like jumping out out of the window pretty fast. Yeah. I mean, certainly if you took it to him in abstract, he would just he he would disagree with with the notion that like you need to preemptively make sure that none of your that. None of the subjects that you discuss in your piece or going to take except your publicly take exception, the peace after publication or else, you should never publish it. Right. I mean, that's happened to him all the time Shirley in his career. Absolutely. Yeah. I don't I don't know. By the way, also loved all the people who went to Twitter or other or elsewhere to remind us that there had been pushed back to Woodward and Bernstein scoop about Hugh Sloan testimony the grand jury during Watergate, we all saw all the president's men. So we we've all seen that. That's that's like one of those like Shakespeare or deter fill you don't need a quoted anymore. We're all good. We got it. So. Thank you. Thank you for. Thank you for for citing. Everyone's favourite journalism movie. And we're we're all we all we know those references. Thank you very much. No need to know new for the reminder. All right. David side of the Twitter joke of the week where we celebrate a gag that was so obvious that all of media Twitter made it at exactly the same time. I got a ton during yesterday's incredibly exciting conference championship game. One about Tony romo's predictive powers if Tony Romo ever tells you tomorrow is your last day on earth, you best get your affairs in order are Pellizotti chips at that along another one that had a good run. What if they tie? This is an overdose overtime. I guess the second game Joey candidate since that end says that was probably a two minute. Over were joke on Twitter. There was a big ball. Don't lie moment, which Tony Romo says there's did you hear that? There's this phrase in the NBA the ball doesn't lie. That was my favorite great. Great remote courts. The weekend. Also is Casey March down the field for the game tying field goal. At the end of regulation. Yesterday was never worked Twitter joke to say, I smell OT. If Belcher doesn't have grop Lang deep safety. Thanks to Kupa fantasy for that. One. In other sports, news, Jordan, Brunell points as to the Golden State Warriors. Boogie cousins Thanos memes that was a thing. Yes. Very funny to characterize it other than that. But that was a big deal. But David did you see my favorite news of the week of last week? Chris Hansen of to catch a predator entrapment fame was. Arrested for writing thirteen thousand dollars worth of bad checks, kind of an interesting mugshot, by the way for Chris Hanson? He kind of looked like the guy, you know, in the half sip that you see really early in the morning at a Starbucks or maybe your favorite teams fired offense coordinator. That's that's the two ends came. Not sure which anyway, it was an overworked Twitter joke to say Chris Hansen needs to have a seed and think about his finances. Thanks to the ringers own Alan Segel for that. All right. You want to talk about some Tony Romo. Yes. Fleas and some blown calls. All right. Here's your some better. Yeah. Here's a scenario. Fourth quarter of the NFC championship game yesterday. This is this is a comparatively. Happy and easy press story to talk about right merely. A blown call that affects the team's ability to go to the Super Bowl instead of some journalism, mud war that that BuzzFeed special counsel trying anyway twenty twenty is a score. Saints are driving for the go ahead field goal and trying to milk the clock to keep the ball away from the Rams third and ten row. Rams quarterback Nickell Robey Coleman and everyone who has heard of that guy before that play raise your hand. Please. I see no hands and the runs into saints wide receiver Tommy Lewis. And now listen to the replay as it was called by Joe buck and Troy Aikman. Right on the safe side long. If you kill Roby, calm and place the ball and interceptions. Brag on the other way with it. I mean the ball is on the other side of Robie agents. Do the analysis on there if it had been a penalty? But in fact, was not a penalty. The saints went on to lose in overtime. I think there's a blown call story here, which is getting a great work at on sports radio. But there's also kind of this is the media age we live in story here between that and the incredible slow MO of the ball, maybe or maybe not touching Julian Elman's dome. Oh, yeah. On that. Punt return. Yeah. I just feel. Here's my source semi hot. Take the refs haven't gotten bad TV has just gotten good and instant replay has gotten incredibly good and Twitter has gotten really good at getting angry people altogether at the same time. So when it feels like refereeing is just hit this new deer in the NFL. I'm. I'm not sure that that's true. And I'm not surely sure that's based on anything other than just we have a better vehicle to see the rest screwing up and a better vehicle to all get mad together. What do you think? Yeah. I think that's true. I don't know. I mean, certainly the I mean, you could make that more broad argument. Right. I mean, the internet has given us a place complain together. Yes. And to sort of make it feel like we're all part of the confirmation bias of like being in a chat room with thirty people. Who agree something as terrible as I mean, it it's easy to make yourself feel like the entire world has gone insane. Right. I mean, if you if you just have your same grievances reinforced over and over again, but in this case, I think you know, we had to. The the two these two instances. I think were were neat sort of parallels. Because I think that the eh domain call was actually like in. This is more about the technology. I mean more about, you know, the about the referees tech, the refereeing technology instant replays in about the the, you know, Twitter reaction, but the Eshelman call was like, the great vindication. I feel like of all of this instant replay nonsense we've been living through for a decade or ever long. It's been because that you know with with with the benefit of slow motion cameras at multiple angles. We were able to see that this like, you know, the ball that came within a, you know, millimeter of his arm did not in fact touch him. And and then, you know, the saints the, you know, the the blown call and the saints game. I think was goes to exactly what you were saying just like a really obvious call that was missed a really his miscall. That was it's not just the problem. It's not just the error in the referee's judgment. It's an error in the the refereeing system that they couldn't review that. Right. I mean, whatever they said the the play the ball was tipped to knows. When that decision was made. And that's why it wasn't called. But also because it was helmet the helmet hit, and we've been conditioned for the past five years or longer to to see that as one of the great evils of the sport total. And so, yeah, I just think it was a perfect storm of just sort of madness on that call, and and you know, there there's very few times. I mean there you know there. There's you often hear about the referees sort of, you know, not wanting to make any call in the closing moments of a game. That's going to affect a affect the outcome. You know, you just kinda gotta let them play. This was the this was the the proof where that's I mean, the instance where that was exactly the opposite of what you need to do. Because the the absence of a call. I mean, literally changed the outcome of the game. And you know, it's not that frequent that as many blown calls as long as refereeing has been bad. You're right. It has been or or been in the same place that it's in now, and as long as many blown causes we've seen in our lifetimes. You know, it's a special moment when a blown call actually prevented team from going to the Super Bowl all tackler. No question. And that's the kind of thing that that that makes it shouldn't happen. It shouldn't happen. Then it's the kind of thing that makes change. I just I just wonder if it's just if the whole thing is like I mean, you could look at that Eshelman play. And if we're convinced it didn't touch thumb, and I don't think it did that the miracle of replay and the miracle the system worked perfectly, right? Yeah. Because that would have been impossible to overturn in the old days, and it would have just been so hard. There would have been a riot. If it had been overturned in the old days. Right. I mean, it was just right. It was. So I mean, it seems on the for first through fifth watches, it seems so. Clear that it must have that it brushed up against him. Right. I mean, there's no way without without slow motion that you would even have that any referee, regardless of his level of conviction would have had the balls overturn. It wouldn't have happened. Yeah. I just think it's so fun. Because I I've heard that this year, including from immediate family that the referees have never been worse than the NFL than they have this year. And you know, when you when you make spectacular mistakes that happens and that you leave yourself vulnerable to that. But I just wonder if that's true. And I just again, I just wonder I don't know what that's based on. And I just sort of wonder if that's not one of these things that we just say because it's you know, because again, it's just so easy to know if the referees are bad, by the way, can I tell you how much I love this. The the the reporters got a pool interview with Bill Venevision who was the head referee last night. The right, right. It lasted three questions Jason enga- last week in your absence. David, and I talked about a little bit about our one of our favorite subjects, which is house sports writing and political. Writing or like, yes. Amy just of the New Orleans times picayune s what was the reason there was no penalty flag on the play and Bill benefits. Referee says it was a judgment call by the covering official. I personally have not seen the play that that was the moment that political writing political writing sports writing came together because how many times that we heard Mitch McConnell Paul Ryan say you haven't seen. I'd love to come in. I just unfortunately have not seen Trump's tweet, and I just couldn't possibly offer comet because I have not seen what the president said it in the here's the Brazilian. I didn't see the play you were on the field. This the biggest story in sports. And and also Robert Clem Coa the gar our very own. Kevin Clark hall suggested this could the reporter not polite her phone and just show him the play right there. I mean, we're we're talking about the miracles of technology, right? Yeah. Can't we just call the bluff on that? It'd be like here is the play. I would like to show you the play right now. And you can tell me about that. Yeah. Well, if you if you take if you take him at his word just like with. Paul Ryan, reacting not r-, you know, with non reactions that Trump tweets, then you have to believe in this reality in which Paul Ryan has like rushed out of his office as someone was showing him the tweet. So he could get in front of the camera before he had to read it. Right. And then in this situation, it's a similar thing released or or the, you know, whoever was whoever was running PR that night was like are there any reveries who have not seen the play because you're the one we'd like to send out in front of the media right now at that point, the the, you know, if you're interviewing this guy. Yeah. You could you could whip out your phone and show him where you could just be like, well, I feel sorry for this, dude. Who's clearly been just put in front of the firing squad. Despite the fact that he hasn't actually seen the be specifically because he hasn't seen the play. I guess I don't know. It's a it's it's just it's it's nuts. It's not. And then and subsequently there was and again, I I don't know if this is specifically a parallel to political reporting. But this is definitely a level of NFL reporting that you know, did not exist in years past. We got we got the the the news that the NFL would be. Publicly acknowledging that it was a bad call. And then that was walked back at some point all before any sort of public statement was made that they change their mind or would not being notching that it was a blown call. But they told Sean Payton, right? The NFL told Sean Payton born the call, and he was able to get in front of a camera and say that and then that clip went out on Twitter frustrating, you know, just getting off the phone with league off the blue the call and. Then a lot of opportunities though. But that call puts it first and ten Ronnie three place and it's game changing call. So we know everything and also by the way, one of my favorite moments was when they were able to talk to Nicole Roby Coleman. And he said, yeah, that was PI the pass interference. Like, he he was all in the third, by the way. Incredible. Meta media moment of this Peter King and his column on on NBC this morning says that Al river on who is the guy who's ahead of the officials. They're he got emails saying that the NFL might dump him at this is it like after the whole year, and after this particular call he may lose his job and and wanna Peter King. Suggestions was that the NFL go get dean blandino, the former head of officials from FOX to come back and be the new head rests to think of how this works. You leave NFL refereeing you go to FOX and with these super slow motion replays show how bad the current NFL referees. Are they? Fire that guy inputs you back in the job. I mean that that's kind of an amazing trick, isn't it? I mean, you you you whole job is essentially to show how badly the referees are doing. And then you get to go run them after you've done that job. So affective I love that. That's amazing to me. I do think by the way, we always talk about negative NFL news, two kinds. Right. There's bad NFL news. It's going to get people to stop watching the NFL. And then there's bad NFL news that just makes us talk about the NFL for another forty eight hours, seventy two hours. This is number two. Is it not this is not going to be a crisis? I mean, maybe they'll change the rule, but this is not going to be a good. This is just one of those things that makes people like the NFL even more. Sure. I mean, like, you know, Stephen Smith did not have to dig for material the next morning. You know, I mean, it was it was not a this was a this is the the platonic ideal of a morning after sports argument, or or sports rant doesn't is not even an argument. I guess, but I mean, it's it's it's a I got to imagine the NFL wishes the called gun correctly. But this is not, you know, th they're not unhappy. We're all talking about it. Couple other notes from the an really amazing Sunday of action. The call aside does it to like incredibly fun games to watch. One was the moment in the early game. Saints Rams were Johnny Hecker was punting to Tommy Lewis. Did that sound to you like a football game from twenty nineteen or a hair metal show nineteen Eighty-six? Yes, Johnny Hecker and Tommy Lee Lewis yet. And Tommy Lee was one word was kind of amazing. Tommy Lewis plays it plays the guitar left handed. Most people know yet he had he had to change the strings when he was a kid. To play correctly. Tom Brady's smirking Instagram post with gronk after the game. Yes. Incredible. Incre I'm not a patriots them, not a Tom Brady fame. And I thought that was just absolutely incredible. And I like it. I just would rather. I would rather we smirk in public than spoke privately. Let's just go ahead and do it. And then there's Tony Romo David who was as wizardly as he's ever been last night. The last pets drive in regulation and then the drive in the game winning drive. Not. He was calling the plays Hussein if Bronx, you know, in here toward the line. He's gonna have to stay in chip and Brady is gonna hit Eshelman Julian Edelman over the middle. And then it would happen, and it can be happening. I kept hearing seeing on Twitter that he's the best analyst ever. And I am official tap the breaks guy on such proclamations and not because I Tony road. Just because I feel a lot of that's performance of. And you know, I actually think about this question sometimes in my. In my in my quiet moments. Last night was pretty amazing. You know, I'm not sure it's ever been on anyone on sports television on any kind of sports television better than John men ever. Sure at everything, but that was pretty incredible. And I've never seen anything like that in my life. I really have. Yeah. It felt a little bit. Like like, he like, you know, I could see Tom Brady and Tony Romo sort of sort of Mirroring each other a little bit during the game. They both sort of seem to have a to sort of have a low during the second half of the season. But they were just saving it for the play offs. I guess you know, I mean. Tony Romo and and we've talked about Tony Romo before. And in the, you know, just because his you know, he came out. He started his announcing career, you know, with the course of Hosanna 's behind him everybody thought he was the greatest thing ever. And then there is this season has been a little bit of a little bit of a downturn. As far as public perception goes for him. That's just the nature of the beast. But my goodness he was on. And the way that people reacting to it in real time. You know, made it even better. It was pretty incredible. I will say the one difference are the one thing that separates a guy. Like man from Gallic Tony Romo is that Madden. Was an entertainer. Yeah. Beyond the football stuff. Tony romo's. Not really funny. He is build with joy and enthusiasm. He makes you want to watch the game because he is. So watching it with such childlike wonder, but which is a quality John man had. But John man was actually just funny. Yeah. Beyond the game. And if the game was a real stinker John Madden could just. Start riffing and could be incredibly entertaining and make a terrible game. Watchable? I'm not sure Tony Romo has a gear now yet, but he might. But I think you I think you'll most want Tony Romo for a great game. And last night, you know, with a credible fourth quarter scoring output OT L. It's that to me is when you went Tony Romo again at this point. I will agree with you. And I think it's you know, it's a little bit overdone to call the great commentators storytellers, you know, I mean because it's not like, they're just creating the narratives of the game out of from whole cloth or whatever. But there is a degree to which Romo is is, you know, kind of the best investing in the show at telling you precisely what's happening and making that entertaining and not, but but not exact, but not, you know, creating, you know, creating narrative or or kind of taking it on a on a on a more wims ical level. You're right. Like Madden could. Yeah. I think Jim Nance has the story. These self-styled storyteller in that. I think that's right. He he he wants to be that guy. All right. David topic number three atom moss on Wednesday. The New York Times is Michael Grynbaum reported. That mossy sixty one year old New York magazine is stepping down after fifteen years at the helm his run in New York was notable for lots and lots of journalism awards covers of Eliot Spitzer and Bernie Madoff and Bill Cosby's victims covers that are by the way way better than the New Yorkers topical. Covers some of which just say that. Right. Oh, yeah. Much better. He left. He told his staff in a note because magazine editors ought to have term limits. He also talked to Grynbaum about being older than his staff and his readers perhaps feeling like his moment of being under past. We've also talked on the show about the rumors. The New York was for sale or potentially the future of New Yorkers uncertain. I think though, everyone says moss leaving is not about this. I think it's safe to say that at some level in some way, it has about this or at least about the magazine business. Not being the Bank Zine business anymore. Right. Yeah. Because I think if it I'm gonna we're gonna talk about him at Amasi internet in a second. But I just think like she does feel to me is either. It's Anna Wintour is now the last one right that fills fully of that era of the swashbuckling big time magazine editor type who's walking the earth rate. I mean who who else? No, no offense to Jake Silverstein or any anybody else out there who are really really good magazine editors, but who comes from that ninety s era when that was such a huge job. And when those people had such, oh, you know, outside power and influence is there anybody else on on the earth again outside a winter who really is of that group. I mean outside of winter and Bill Simmons. I think is what you meant to say. Jay talking about print magazine. Okay. Just print. Sorry. Sorry. I just wanted to make that clear all of our. No, no, there's. As it were. No, there's nobody else. I mean, the the it's, and it's and I think it's just a product of, you know, the age, it's not it would be. I mean, listen, you I come from the world of book publishing and the same thing happened about, you know, a decade or two earlier in that in that world with the guy running the house or the great editor that kind of thing. Yeah. I mean, they're like sunny medicine around. But there's not that many from that era of the people who were just, you know, just, you know, partying at the Odeon and the eighties and now in and publishing the, you know, front page New York Times book review books, you know, on the during the during their workdays. And you know, there's a lot of reasons why that changes, I think that, you know, certainly, the the the the sorts of companies that are or or the varieties of ownership of these media companies has changed a great deal, and that has shifted, you know, the the considerations as far as profitability and everything else. And certainly just profitability is changing. I mean the way that these. The way that they make money the necessity of print magazines in the modern era. Yep. Big obviously, there's a there's a we talked about this before. But there's the the brass tacks part of it. Which is all of these great editors, we've you know, who have been around forever are making incredible salaries based on their greatest moment of of sales and acclaim and presumably been getting like significant raises in the intervening period, even as sale, you know, sales trend downward, but then you know, there's also just it's it's a different era. Now, you know, and you and might you know, Greg and Carter came along today. He would probably be, you know, hosting a variety show on HBO or something before he is Andy Cohen. Listen. I mean, the the they were I don't think that he would he wouldn't find his final calling behind a desk, you know, in the in the Conde nast Bill, and by the way, I went nowhere. Implicit in. My argument is they don't make them like they used to. I'm not saying that I'm just saying a period of time has passed or is passionate from this earth. I don't either not a bad thing. It's just. Yeah. It's just different. And it's glowing period of American life, by the way, and oh God. Yes. I mean, that's what we all you, and I and so many of our peers came to New York with those with, you know, with with that bright lights big cities sort of era in our in our in our minds, and and you know, and look good times immediately. We're a changing I wanna do I do want to touch on the notion that just the specifically the the idea of of New York magazine kind of being up for sale. I that wasn't mentioned a lot in early in the or at least it was was pushed way down into the reports about about Adama's leaving. But the fact that it wasn't that it wasn't contradict. Could more directly. I think kind of tells you all you need to know. I mean, the the he said that he told you know, he announced that he was departing in September. And the first stories about New York magazine potentially being for sale where or early August. So, you know, if that had been, you know, a germ of, you know, in in his in his head that he might be ready to move on to something else that must have been a huge contributing factors this decision. I think so I mean without knowing I just it seems like this is the time was not you if not you would stick around specifically because of that I mean, you would say, well, I'm gonna see us through or you know, what there's there's and without addressing it at all directly. I think that to me like, I said tells you what you need to know basin things about Adama's Demi or in interesting things to me one is a lot of these other guys you mentioned Graydon Carter and a winter Tina Brown their most larger than life, right, personality wise, or a was he his aura was almost smaller than life. It was like, you know, he was not a off. Wall personality, you cannot imagine him hosting a talk show on HBO if he'd been born at if appeared in his life. It was like keep poured all of his personality into the book itself instead of carrying on as this Rangan tour interview with him for a job one time. And I remember somebody warned me that it's going to be like one of those Socratic seminars like you do in a college philosophy class. Right. And indeed, it was I drawn up this list of story ideas. And he said, you know, and I mentioned what he said that's interesting now now who would write that story. And I offered some names. And why would you pick that person? Right. That story. And I and I mentioned why pick that person he said now, what would the discovery be in that story? And why would that be interesting? And it was this is pulling out of, you know, he did not tell tales about you know, editing. So, you know, Michael Lewis of the New York Times magazine, he wasn't sloughing off stories. He wasn't trying to impress me at all. He was just Neang king. The idea bodily. Outta me. There's a whole like a horror movie. But in a good way, you know, it was just he was pulling it out. And you know, I think that was you know, people who worked for him talked about that a lot. I think he could drive editors and writers nuts by insisting on lots of late in the game changes and edits and and striving for perfection. Yeah. But that was him. And that to me is like, it's it's amazing. And he's talked about in this in this New York Times piece like he he he can he his hobby was the magazine like that was his law. That was every you know, he woke up thinking about it. He went to bed thinking about it. That's what he liked to do. But it's funny. He was just very very very different personality type than a lot of the people. We talk about in that role the other thing, I drove up, you know, we've been hearing a lot about coaching trees like in the NFL the Andy Reid coaching tree in the Bill Belichick coaching tree. Would you like coaching tree? Yes. Please. I sent a few emails. Here's the list. These are people who worked for moss, and then went on to edit something or edit part of something you ready. David Haskell, new editor of New York magazine. Obviously Hugo Lindgren times magazine, Lauren Kern over at apple news. Megan lieberman. Formerly of Yahoo news. Gilbert, crews are pal vulture alumni arts editor New York Times. Dan course over at slate. David Marchesi, a New York Times magazine interviewer John holman's aerial camera. Amanda Dobbins our very own some of the deepest cuts. I got James Ledbetter who worked with moss at seven days. And then went onto ran run. Reuters dot com, by the way, an also Jonathan Van Meter from seven days, that's almost two Autry for me. And I'm interested in this stuff. That's like when you meet a Robert Altman fan, and they say have you seen secret honor have you seen health? No, I haven't and I have not read seven days. So I'm sorry. But anyway, that's that's that. That I also think it we said this on this podcast before. But he is the only guy from that. You know, pantheon of magazine editors to me who really took the DNA magazine translated to the web. Yeah. No Graydon Carter didn't do that. Tina Brown didn't do that. And it went to her hasn't done that in the way that he did which is to make a great magazine into a great website. And that was that's amazing to me. And that's that's that was his kind of, you know, final act and kind of final bid of magic was to was to do that. And it's not easy. No. But but he really did know. I mean, I think that well two things one I mean to to to do more. You know, armchair psychoanalyzing. You have to imagine that the move that near magazines moved to the pay wall had to be just crushing for someone who who achieved that you know, who. Who almost solely achieve that? Right. I mean that you would create a website. Do you be able to turn a print magazine into an incredibly vital website? And then to have that sort of corn off all the sudden, I mean that would that seems to be totally you know, to just kind of tear down everything that you built up. But you know, I think that that there's also the the fact that as much as they were publishing online as much, you know, kind of importance if they're publishing online, and then there there is also the stuff that they're publishing sort of simultaneous simultaneously or in conjunction with the print magazine. It always felt it always felt comfortable on the on the on the, you know on a web page as comfortable as it did an apprentice page, which is not a small thing. And that and that the success of the website never seemed to hurt the print magazine. I mean, there were they did go to go from a weekly know, a weekly magazine to buy weekly in twenty fourteen I believe, but you know, this is at a time when monthly magazines are going by month. Earlier, you know, I mean, everybody's everybody's printing publishing less and less than the print world. And I mean, even in its by weekly even in its biweekly years. It has been it's consistently stunning to me the amount of content that that magazine drops off at your doorstep every two weeks. You know, I mean, it's just the highest quality journalism and the smartest front of the book stuff, and the the the the the consistency. And the identity of the magazine, I think is is really really the the great. I mean, obviously to Moss's never never-ending in credit here here. Do we have time for quick notebook? Dump david. It's it we called the segment the kicker before. And I was informed that the the the Columbia journalism view has a podcast name the kicker. So screw that. It's now the notebook dump are twenty twenty update Kirsten gillibrand democratic Senator from New York was campaigning in Iowa this week. I wrote down that she's she's. She told the New York Times described her talking about her love of RV's and her family vacation last summer to see a NASCAR race. Now, you don't think she's trying to appeal to rural voters? Do you? David. Somebody tweeted at me and said, you know, now you pick NASCAR would it serve. Like, you know. Lost all its luster. Now you pick NASCAR. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Well, I don't know that NASCAR is the place. I would go with that. But anyway, you know, I do like the hierarchy of where you get to announce Jill brand got Colbert that was big that was unusual, right? Tulsi Gabbard gut the van Jones show on CNN that I'd never heard of. That's didn't know isn't. That's on you for not watching. I know. I like, I just didn't know he had a show that didn't know in other twenty twenty news. I saw this tweet from New York magazine's Josh barrow as it were my main wish for presidential debates. And by the way, I will remind you the presidential debates are starting the summer with the Democrats. She I know it's already here. My main wish for presidential debates is no live audience the audience disrupts the candidates pander to it eats time and makes the debates list substantive and serious. That's his say, what do we think about a debate without an audience? I mean, I find it kind of hard to fathom that any networker. I mean, any whoever is going to be hosting the debates would have the guts to actually like dramatically change formats, you diverge from the from the expected format, but I you know, I I think that's I don't disagree with anything that he says is the point of an audience at a debate. Like, what's the best case scenario? PSI watched the debate in person, I guess, I guess without a debate does have a little bit of a exclusionary feel right? I mean, it doesn't change who's debating up on stage, but, you know, performing performing to alive audience does have a degree of difficulty is not that they don't go out and give speeches all the time. But to a potentially adversarial audience is you know, is is something to contend with. I guess like like like people like a comedy club or something. Yeah. Exactly. You you gotta be gotta be willing to get heckled, man. If there's no audience, I feel it will be like those local political debates sometimes catch on C span. Like, you know, it's in this kind of air. Fearless TV affiliate studio. Yeah. I think I would like that. Yeah. Maybe they should just do it very limited audience just like fee, some names get drawn out of a hat, and the and it's like there's just like three people in the room, and and the politicians have to go after really specifically appeal to each person just find out things about them and just sorta interviewing them, and what can I do for you? Yes. It's more of a one on a moment. It's more of a transactional. Sort of, you know, this this is how we're going to you know, let me let me let me appeal to you average Mike out there that seems like what Carson children was trying to do in Iowa. I think she'd be really good at that. You like NASCAR? Do you like these because I do like NASCAR? I do like NASCAR. Yes. I like RV's quite a lot. I've got a winnebago right in the back. David. That's the press box with this week. Chris omega helps us with research. Jim Cunningham's, our producer, David shoemakers back. And so am I next week from the Super Bowl, by the way? At least I'll be more hot takes on the media. See them. See you later. Aided of to catch a predator entrapment fame. All right. You wanna talk about the swashbuckling big time Tony Romo. Yes. Please. I wanna do. I do want to touch on the notion that just the specifically the two we just wait a little bit on that. We talked about this before. But there's the why would that be interesting if Tony Romo ever tells you tomorrow is your last day on earth? Yes. Fleas incredible. Yeah. Well, there's nothing internet e about this at all that felt like jumping out out of the window pretty fast. Yeah. I mean, certainly if he took it to abstract go. Yeah. Totally is so fun.
WeWatchWrestling Issue #330
"This is a head gum podcast last time in the next you watch wrestling the I.. Greetings citations the hello. They're happy new year. Hindsight is twenty twenty twenty twenty. John was working for when he got slab slab. The fuck out opening slap open hand slap. Is that feel fake. Twenty twenty son of a bitch is Dr Diesel Alive. Just what would you say mania say mania twenty twenty rematch of the century Florida. They'd sanction that about This is your wonderful and Darling redhead host Wrestling Mat McCarthy with me always the professional wrestling encyclopedia. Vince April Grow Ace man Tampa Florida. A lot of people you know. Saturday April four. Get it sorted three. PM WE WATCH TAMPA DOT FROWN PAPER TICKETS DOT COM and get ticket. Join US live in the Florida Sun. Get the ticket and stick it Red Star Rock. Barney bore Matt I got. I have something breaking. I know we we. We have a lot to get through today. What I have something breaking So as some of you may be aware just came to light that lar- Sullivan has some gay pornography in his past and It's true as soon as I was like. Oh ship and then like on twitter. You know there's a screen grab of like what must be the opening so I you know it's the end of the decade. I immediately went to the only guy knew who could break this down and it was top siblings so taxes at the time then a huge breaking news and then for Tom's first response is sent with just a clip. Go full blown and I go. I assume assume man I just wanted you to take a look and see what you thought you know and he goes. It's probably a full beef down. I've seen porno start like this before. UH-HUH I go I defer to you master. And then he goes starts off with the real frat boy honk and then later he goes Lars Confuse speech. That was his final. Take on the whole thing so Little little bit of slipped and the and the decade And One can only assume that the full full film will become available on certain websites at some if not already it. Because I think it's from the past. I think it already exists. It was just off horse. You know but it's like karate wrestling I would have tax. I had to go to the person I knew would be able to best breakdown while we what we had so And it's you know couldn't happen to a nicer guy since he has a in the past said racist and homophobic things. Yeah it's great so lars Ba. Ah He heard what happened to that guy. I don't know if he was heard of your feelings were hurt. But he hasn't been on the show. Anyway yeah good here from goodyear great good good to call ought to sit and have a have a response you know. It's always nice whenever some jerk that. WWE hires gets embarrassed. I thought you're going to talk about with some Jerk Wade. Mid always great when some jerk gets his perspective on a pornographic clip decade a decade of decadence cadets. Do you have a favorite wrestler of the decade. I mean we can get to. I think it's gotTa be Bryan Danielson for me really Brian Just thinking about you know. The twenty ten is the beginning of his run. Run so I I guess the guy who I have been most concerned about the whole time. I mean concerned like interested in right so he goes there. I'm like Oh shit. Hope this works out then it Kinda starts to work Out But then he gets fired then he comes back. This all happens like as the decade begins right and then from there you know the journey has been on even even with him being gone two years. You know I was like it's gotTa be him Nakimora obviously another guy. That's come up a bunch for me. But he sort of trailed off right but I think I think mine is is is probably Daniel. O'Brien wow I you know what I that. Logic all tracks one hundred percent. Yeah and you know because I was super into the dude in the lead-up bright gone all those ring of honor shows with him and then yeah I don't know I think it's him. Wow we will sue. I mean Nakimora essays. In the conversation I I I think I got that one okay Hiroshi Takahashi while thousand that was going to be the name that was next on I hung the the the wrestler who Yemen. Oh Man I'm so excited I This development with the Tallahassee saying he may open the forbidden door and Jericho then responding and and You see the Promo no Jericho. Oh cut the promo by the private plane. Santana I can fuck and read and write Japanese or whatever and If you want you you think you're going to get a fucking title shot. Good Luck Doc. If you think you can beat me I'll give you an aide title shot so hopefully hopefully come January fifth. You know the forbidden door. I mean there's no way there's no way Tana Hashi loses to Jericho in the dome. Listen Tana Hashi is that guy who's who is he's starting his descent right. That's been made clear he. They've been preparing for landing for a couple of years now and I mean well to their credit also. They've spent this decade making Okada. They started making Okada long before they needed to. which is what you should do right? I mean short of when they sent him to Tina which that also happened during this decade aide crazy but he Yeah so Tallahassee. Though more more very clearly as like headed down and he's you know he's put a lot of people not a lot of people just put you know obviously put Jae White but Jericho is not those guys in the plans but it just it does breathe a little doubt in you that Jericho you know if Jericho is going to be something they're going to do. I don't know because also I started thinking about like that because they do politics right because then it's like is you know do who does he w want their guy you know. Maybe maybe they're okay with him laying down in the Dome if if then how she lays down here on their pay per view or whatever they do I fucking. I hope I really hope that that happens. You know but but yes tallahassee certainly A man of the the twenty tonnes no question walk. Because has that was. The thing is because it's like new Japan people. I think people forget or they just don't know like like if you go all the way back to the beginning of the nineties you know all Japan New Japan. It's like through the through through the eighties and into the early nineties. It was like that was the the height of the art of pro wrestling. You know and I don't mean Cochabamba Hold Cabanas which is also something of the tweet answering Yeah but the because even even even into the late ninety s it was like both those companies were new. Japan certainly was starting to get wobbly. Oh No no doubt you know they were. Yeah they were not All Japan was still you know once Baba died won't but no happened. See Noah Noah comes in At the start of the two thousand. That's two thousand or two thousand. I think so. By that point I feel like all Japan is already like. It's done whatever they've got the best list but they don't you know they're not well what they still had was 'cause then moody came over and then and then a couple of years go by and then the same thing happens when he takes you know a group of guys and then they start. What wrestle one zero one zero one him And then it's just the the fact that all Japan still exists at least a name right. I still don't understand who owns that back library because it's not that somebody who's not capitalizing. Somebody who took down that Google drive. I still weep. You know but I think about Devolve started in twenty ten drank it. USA A little bit in nine but those two companies yet. The other weird thing thing to me is like I feel like as the decade began You know What do you call it? is You know what some might call garbage wrestling or What do you what do you call? That was already had what the harming wrestling hardcore was was going away. That's right sort sort of was a little doormat but now has sort of feels like it's it's coming back a little bit. Well it's it's in some small way hardcore wrestling kind of can't exist in a vacuum. Not that you know because it needs to w existed that during that period so so I'm on some level yeah but I that it was like like when EC W. C. I think the only reason like EC W as great as it was like. But there's much like shit there was on it leg. I mean like I don't mean like a lot of stuff I mean just like Shitty fucking matches watches the point. I'm trying to make was that could only exist in a boom period. You know right way even. Cw You though. I feel like these WF like by the time they get on. TNN or whatever. They're already sort of moving away from that. There are like going heavier into match quality but I just mean to say like and again. This is all like You know just To my recollection or whatever right because You know I I guess I'm seeing more hardcore wrestling but maybe maybe it hasn't increased. Maybe it's just what I'm seeing or something but I just think that there was a point when every indy show had some had stuff like that and then had very little to none of it Is what sort of happened. I think in Fab salutes the first portion of it I mean my original point was like I think people either forget or just oh no like new Japan like towards the end of a no keys. Run on there as like the guy in charge was like that company by all rights should have gone out of business. You know it sh- it should have been in the same state that all like I have the fucking magazine back at my place of like like one of those dome shows where it was You know shown on overseas China You know when she was coming out coming hot hot off of her celebrity boxing match with Joey Buttafuoco I mean that 'cause it's like because that's the kind of thing with With what's his name Eugene Ghada is that he he got the fucking he was the guy with the ball during that really shitty down period rhino and he probably doesn't get enough credit for the being able to do that. The bread heart. Yeah he was was he was the bread heart you know he absolutely was but then once you get into wants to cause an and that magazine features a a picture of American dragon in it. Yeah and one of the young boys wearing his black tights Hiroshi Tana Hashish. Yup You know yeah and then once you get into twenty ten because that's certainly because we we always knew what do Japan was but I think for us. It was at least for me it. It was. Oh that's that's the thing. They have like the Jiwan tournament. Whatever that is? What's the G. One? But like it's like Oh that's where mood Mudo was the N. W. O. Japan. You know I knew a Nokia. I knew Baba I had some tapes of like I was much more you know taken with Massawa Kabashi and Kuwata and that was that you know early nineties right all Japan stuff but you and I went to the first and that was twenty ten. That was how are decades started. Yes in Ralway New Jersey watching new Japan pro wrestling and then basketball city either the next night or the day after yes in Manhattan watching it was it was boom boom and then they went to Philly really was the Sunday. We didn't go to right now when they went. MVP was crowned. That's right the C.. Or something there was a title that they tried. That was that was the. It's that was what's amazing is. It feels like we're always there for these new Japan titled Tournaments. We were there for the intercontinental continental title one. Yeah we were there for the American one. US title we were there for the At least when they brought back the the super junior her cop or what. Oh Yes yes yes. Yes the The Jacob the JAKUP. That's right yeah quit a man. I have one other piece breaking news. All what it simply say this down. Oh No you know we're going we're going to the house show tonight at staples for the holiday tour in I think I there's there's there's a decent chance that we're going to see a loser. Eats dog food match tonight now. I saw they might be doing. Yeah might be lizards dog food. We'll see we'll see we're GONNA WE'RE GONNA try to bum rush and see what the what they're making the dog food out of. I don't know how I feel about that Salaam. Tom Somebody who was much show maneuvered in. I mean that's wow that's like some we're going to end our decade at the House showband. Oh man come on. Are we watching. Corbin versus Roman reigns tonight. I think that might be. The loser. Eats dog food situation. But I don't know man we'll see we'll have to wait and see they don't really they don't the they don't do localized promos anymore. You never know you never know how. Why do they even do how shows anymore? I mean honestly why I. I don't know 'cause they don't make money and it's just more opportunity for guys and girls to get hurt you know. It's just more time away away from the family. Well I think I think that that's the other thing that sort of happened in in this decade is the business model of pro wrestling businesses. Chang thinks they're still catching up a little bit. So maybe they're still figuring out exactly you know there's some of those like old habits die hard and then Eventually the bottom line I also saw that. WWE Since McMahon is being sued. There's like a you know like a but a trust a group of firefighter. Some you know like union or something that invests it's one of the stocks they invest in his WB. They are suing with the idea that that both resources and like judgment are being focused on the XFL in and taking away from stockholders that because you know they they wanna see documents of exactly where where the money's moving and all of it. Oh I love firefighters I always have yes so there's they're good and and it's also like you know obviously ws is a giant force and they got McDevitt but at least it's not like one stockholder. It's like it's like it's someone with a little bit of sore she. I'm like we're we're going to sue these mother fuckers and find you know like this consortium. It was me Vance. WHOA I mean my God Almighty Heidi. I didn't think we would. I didn't think we'd lose a John Cena before the end of the decade but Here we are seamless. It's crazy. How like he was broken casino lists I know he was the guy and remained the guy? The last the raw the bright rated seena might be you know the last gunslinger the last. You know face of the company because as much as they keep trying to pretend like all Romans the new face are well I mean but it also goes hand-in-hand with that idea of like wool. How shows whatever it's like? He's not not shirt. Sales sales were talking about merch but a guy who moved the meter on tickets. You know. Yeah it's just a different model now maybe right or maybe they just want the fucking. I don't maybe who knows I mean it just I mean just just put a button on the town of hashing thing is like like he was a was a group like talk about the guy like re- like ghetto. Of course I sure you gotta give it to ghetto but then you gotta at some point the bells got a ring. Tallahassee saved that fucking company right well so he you you know for lack of a better. It's like Austin Right. The Guy Absolutely rings people me and creates your room and that's that's Hiroshi Tachi. No doubt about about it for new Japan because the two thousand was a weird. He was the little things you put on the chess. Don't you Tommy Bit. Add Lear he up a e Dub because the two thousands is such a weird time for pro wrestling. Yeah in the United States because after W W dies. It's like Doc Ring Goner is born. You know but I mean this is he in a is weird going all the way back though. You're going back to that. I'm going all the way back act. But I'm but this is what I'm saying because obviously you can't have the twenty times without the two thousands and then they're kind of in this weird limbo limbo of like the ruthless aggression era to ellison toothless aggression era This is around the time that people started is noticing. I think on a larger scale of like wider wrestlers. Keep dying you know. Because that's that's real. You know you still got that you know. I can't put a date on everyone who died. But it's like it felt like that all built to you know and then once Addie he died and then when the Benoit thing happens in Oh eight yeah then it was like the that that was the catalyst of like well. WWE's WWE's got to change. Yeah you know the other thing that the the very beginning of two thousand ten is when Jeff Hardy his house gets raided. And he's got so many pills hills they think he's selling them Jeff and And you know this that whole period of like Bischoff and Hogan and those guys and try ah right So weird yeah. It's wild Selena twenty tons of like it because then it it. Finally this was the decade cade where the indie scene bike bins McMahon was so consumed with I don't know what with with TNA not being A viable competitor. Also you have see trying to pretend that you have see wasn't competition but clearly it was way more popular at the start of the decade. I feel like Oh man. What a decade they had? Yeah because then then once once you you they pete with you know the the the McGregor's and the rouses you know but but at any rate vince completely had his eye off the ball all and then all of a sudden like the indie scene becomes which and we were so lucky to be a part of coast to coast to coast to coast of the Dragon Gate. USA's the evolves. I mean fuck you went to evolve one You know And then once we came out here to La started going to PWG. Yep and that's that's like what we were seeing and right before war we started going. Yeah you know that beginning of the decade but also you see is like. That's that's the business. Now that's the state of the art the mainstream business. Now that's eighty w an annex t and frankly Ron smackdown. Anybody who's worth a shit came. Yeah that's all that. PWG talent Alan and that's kind of a catchall for the indie scene. Frankly and also just like You know it started to happen a little bit with ring of honor but like it's this decade Gade Win Mania becomes you know Russell Khan and so many other things going on around that like you know 'cause fuck like man I wouldn't I would not go. I wouldn't get on a plane to just see mania you know. I've seen mania. Yeah but if you're going to have all this other shit to do then of course you know I mean it's just yeah it's like it's fucking woodstock all of a sudden Also real quick you know Manse Warner he won the Awa he w title Over the weekend oh I saw that. Did you see his promo no because he was definitely calling a dub in his promo and I thought if Mazzi Daba Bob Give me back my C.. You son of a bitch I bet. Throw it in the garbage. What is the SOC- DUB C DUB See A dub. I love. Know how he how he got out from under the hood he's been reinstated and won the title. I'm just looking at what. The mania was in twenty ten. Yeah am an. This is an interesting mania two as well because this was The main event was Undertaker Shawn on Michael's the the streak versus the career seen versus Batista. uh-huh Jericho Edge. Bret Hart vs Mr McMahon. Yeah that's classic yeah. Do you remember that was like I remember like printing out either printing or emailing the whole observer that was written a for that so like send it to you and groggy agan like what's coming up for to watch me. I was like all right here. We go that was then you know bret can do shit but it was. It was what it was. It was still insane that it was happening right because then the year before was the first undertaker Sean on right and then the year before that was mayweather and then the year before that was trump. Right trump I was at that was in Detroit. That was the first time when there was like a ring of honor's running shows and that's the first time I think when they did the hall of fame like they do it now where it was like in a theater or in like I was in a theater that night but now it's an but they like had it as a thing. You could go to. Yeah Mania weekend. That's what's crazy is because then the next year a mania is twenty seven and that's the one where rock didn't wrestle. Oh but rock was the the host and then the fuck this is crazy to think that the main event of Wrestlemania in twenty eleven was MS versus John. CENA MS win. Yes yes. 'cause rock interferes. Yes and then. They do a year old school year long. Bill I the last time to the next mania for rock and Sina 'cause then then 'cause now we're talking now we're getting into something. I was itching to talk about the the returns that we saw in this decade the the ROC returns. WWe To wrestle. Yes lesnie returns fucking staying finally debuts and wwe and then the one that this this. I think I don't know if I can quantify the biggest story in wrestling over this decade you know is it the. WWE network is eighty w getting TV is it. The rise of the indies is it you know I I didn't even look at you. Know who passed away but the fact that Bruno Sammartino and wwe. Mary the Hatch made amends ends. Yeah they brought back Bruno fucking put him in the hall of fame. That's the H.. Effect right that's the H. A.. Fact Man Hung honor but I'll even ultimate warrior coming back in this decade. Yeah we can't forget about that. The Hogan Gawker scandal handle all that Shit Lovin. No what what all those years ago. What ultimate warrior was saying in front of Linda McMahon does it Jr.? Jim Cornet. Who loves swear? Oh here's like I can't believe the language he was using in front of writing and that's just like whatever that's just trying to get the guy to come back to work guys Kabbah chimp term. Will you please Jim both known or not now three of you you Jim Jim Narrow Jim help dammit. DEMOC is the only one who's not jim but brutal Sammertino of all I mean honest like what wage postals integrity and then here he is. You know you're not an Anna a triple H. He calls me up and he says I I said No. I don't know what to go into the hall of fame and then they said We're watching the products. What's the product and you tell me so I tune in I watch it and I could not believe better very? That's I. I do the best Bruno Sammartino anyone's ever watch. Amen sister you gotTa Watch Bruno convince on Donahue all those years ago with with Dave Meltzer like sitting in between them. Well you gotta be bef- before that you gotTa Watch and it's only only them Bruno and vents on Larry King. Yeah and then maybe the next week or two after was the donahue. Yeah because then that had add meltzer hats Your buddy with the radio show Oh John Resume. Yeah John Them. Yeah Anthony Jonathan Youth right right yeah man. It's it's fucking incredible but it is that thing of like Bruno Sammartino being alive and in control of his own shit saying look at like I want want my legacy to be remembered. I know that I'm not down with all that these people have done. But it's the place and I don't want to cheat the fans and whatever it was right because it's the same thing as like it's the same thing thing as Owen. Hart means it's his wife. WHO's making those calls? She's like I don't give a fuck. You know like Britain well. But but Ellen desert-like people deserve remember Owen. An and she's like I don't I don't fucking care because I don't want people to make another dime on one. I wanted to fuck and be gone. And that's the difference right but but it's that same thing of like if you want you know if your body of work or whatever like that unfortunately you gotta get into bed with them a little bit right matter what I mean say what you will about vents. Or the way that he runs his business or the things he might say when the cameras are off or on for that matter but the PG era and that is the legacy I guess one of the big legacies of the decade. I think you could be. Do you think it was mattel. Well I mean that was always a story at the time that like the the deal the toy deal in place you know. And that's why now. I don't think it's like the the again the finances have shifted but the time. I think it was a big enough deal. Where where they're like? Well we just got a fucking kowtow little. It's interesting. I thought it was a combination of of that of the Ben wapping and the bad press but then To sell horrible the attitude areas when you watch back or not not all. I mean some of those stories are hey. Hey Man I remember at the time thinking. This ain't fucking coup. But Linda McMahon running for office was also Major factor. You know. Oh two failed attempts. We can't have any corpses getting fucked on TV while Linda behind a God people have no appreciation for darker. What's funny now is any of that could go? Because she's just in trump's cabinet and it doesn't matter anything his it's all on the table. What what's so funny to like? Whatever I can't get into we don't don't need to I don't have time But as a Bruno San Martino I I can buy him watching the current product and being like this is not the shit with the fuck stuck in you know the half naked women and the you know the corpses and the the beer and the penises and all that but you also have to get over your hatred of another. You're right because I mean. Obviously him and Vince were in a bad way and he also felt like you had fucked them over on his kid. You know because when they brought back that first time it will show. We're going to give your your your kids going to get. But now but but then I don't know if they made up before Bruno passed on but like but then like David and Bruno didn't talk right. You know right so there might I need. It's it's Meltzer says that more times than he says. Brian or says put it this way. He says time heals heals all wounds. He's also really big into say. Read the tea leaves. Have you noticed that Meltzer will Manson mentioned the tea leaves from once in a while. He loves eastern in philosophy and medicine and things of this nature. I'm not I'm sure he lives in the bay area. Did you hear the other day. He was talking with fucking happy he goes he goes. I'm GonNa die on that bike. I know it and his wife's like you still better ride you fat piece of Shit. I didn't marry you to be getting fat piece of Shit. You better get second bike. Hey Fatty what happened to the Hottie. I figured you know I just I just google pictures a Kumail Nanjiani. He's got better apps and you day what's up melts What about melts in this decade? I mean he's always been always been a part of the business in Christ since since nineteen eighty two do but I mean is it is it. Social media is it because even because that wrestling observer radio was was up and running in in two thousand ten for sure right yes I will go as far as to say though like it's it's the twitter effect like twitter. Really come on in the fact that he's John they're fighting with people like everyone else's I love. I love that you pointed out that one time that Alvarez jumped innings like Dave person has three followers board stop. You don't need to fuck with this person Yeah I just think that Twitter has been a negative for everyone that I mean. Whatever but I think it's also interesting that you you can see instances in the past of the eighties or maybe even in the early nineties where there would be like was it was was it wafts had like a job guy named like Davy Meltzer or something This is the decade where the worm turns a little where like with with maybe on the Joe in Kansas show. I can't remember but like certainly and being the elite you know and then just on the indies in general and then melted showing his face it at shows him being acknowledged rabbi wrestlers By by not just burn the newsletter. Yeah not just not just not trying to pop the boys go out there like a fucking Musar talking about the fuck stuck in. Where'd you get there Terry anywhere that you burnt on TV? Where'd you get that right? I'm just noticing that on your shirt road. Dog is getting his head caved in imply a chair from our car. Oh you didn't do well not upper shut up. It was the best of times in the worst of times ten years past. We don't come into the picture until two thousand thirteen as everyone's aware and we changed. It's funny because I mean you and I face to face a couple of silver spoons. Yeah yeah I I face to face Bala red bottle white. 'cause about what year did you go back to Michigan. I went back in. I went back for nine months in two thousand twelve. Basically start at w. w. what. When did you start November twelve No number eleven November of two thousand eleven. Okay I go home to take care my oh man in like in April or May of thirteen twelve twelve and then I get out here Almost almost a year later not quite a year later. Because it's such a it's it's a it's a funny fucking thing thinking about the beginning of this decade because like twenty ten the very hey beginning of the year it's like I did the last of those verizon file spots that campaign ends I get engaged. We start going to lots of indie shows you know. Yeah when when did I'm trying to think when I when you finally went with me though. Was it nine or was it I can tell you exactly when it was the I think it might have been It might might have been two thousand nine Because it was it was tyler black's final. Show that's your first show. Yes that's my first ring of honor shots shots so weird I would've I would've thought it was before that but well here we are. My memory is shit here. We are face to face a couple of mother bucks of a couple of mother fucks. What a ridiculous thing to say? Look around All over town. This is interesting. Two thousand ten final battle which we were completely at That was the unsanctioned fights between generic. Oh and Kevin Steen Steen. We started our decade with that just darrow Roderick strong and Davey Richards at fucking. Yeah Yup Yup got the Briscoe versus the kings of wrestling. What a fucking show? This was was on that. This is a December number. Twenty ten okay. I'm just trying to so I might have even been at Okay so that wasn't a final battle. His final show was glory by honor nine. So That's that September twenty ten. Oh Okay Yeah Yeah Yeah. Yeah that's so we could. We were watching wrestling on whole time. I was going. I was just I. I was resistant. I was so resistant to it. I was it. It's funny because when when Meltzer answer goes on now about like God there's so many people who like hate eighty w and it's just like I certainly didn't hate ring of honor Dr or TNA. Or whatever but I was just like. WWE is pro wrestling. And that's it. You know this other stuff is i. Don't I don't know so it I don't understand it so therefore it must not be good or worth my time. You know that like that ego. Yeah thing but we must sm- smart got enough weed and drank beer that you agree to go. Well I mean you just you just talked about it enough that and and you were going you know and then it was like well. Fuck Doc why would I not. I like being with Vince. Why don't I just be with Vince? As often as I drink a little fun when was the Ba- what was the bash. Oh eight Oh right Maybe let's see because if that's because I would be shocked. Yeah late is when we started watching wrestling together because we had done Gotham. That's linked. Yeah we knew each other but we weren't you know hanging. Yeah the bash. Two thousand eight and her moved up. The street basically didn't hurt one. Bit that was at Nassau. Didn't hurt that. You were willing to bring a racketeers man. I every week. I came rolling with Thirty Beers and every single time Jesse pop would open the fridge. Go who brought these mirrors. Can I have one Louis. That's why I brought them mister pop man. There's only one existing photo of that apartment that I'm aware of really and it has greg in pop sitting on that love seat. Pop always sat in the one corner of right until it disintegrated in the earth. And you can see behind him just like a it looks like a landfill. It just looks. Looks like they're sitting in a landfill anyway guitar there ever. There's no pictures of that dry erase wall. Oh I have those those are not those are not all ready. READY FOR PRIMETIME I. I'm sure they're not I just I would love to 'cause I just remember. I drew a giant picture of Abdullah. The butcher I don't know about that I I have the ones take a peak. I have the ones that feature when when everyone was drying penises peanuts related. Penis related people. Yeah Pena's related not like you know pop pop head. Is Abe Lincoln with a giant Dick. And then I drew like the you know the Medieval Knight. who had the DICKHEAD Things like that. I mean it was it was it was dry race board for ideas we also. Would you know those in those days like I remember using it for like the rumble and for sometimes raw there there was like a shore tournament or something we draft get our shit together. Yeah Yup Yup Yup but then also sometimes it was phallic but hey this is the decade aid that we both entered our forties. Where where where we're we're mature men now What the fuck talking about Oh but going to Roi? H I mean that's the beginning of the beginning I mean that's that's incredible this decade break in that wide open a so nobody asked me. I definitely turned forty Before twenty ten but just to be just so no one gets mad that I'm doing now younger than I am. Or a seventy five so you turned forty in two thousand five so but don't worry about me man. I'll be all right. I'm I'm fine with them own it. You're not how thirty four forty four forty five right so sue dummy. You didn't turn math us us. You didn't turn forty in two thousand five hundred forty and twenty fifteen eighty five ninety a forty four thirty. You know I 'cause I'm thinking to myself I'm like you're not fucking fifty five. No they wanted me to take a four credit. A four credit no credit math class in order to take the one math class. I needed for my bachelor's I I fucking I threw a real fit about that but my my math skills are not the you know. Yeah dummy Fuck Man. How old am I matt? Thank you. I'm back that's right back. Maybe I'm back. That's so funny was. We don't don't usually do this show without coffee. I think. That's part of the issue. Maybe while you're hungry we're headed the art house man. Oh this is what you you threw me off at that breaking news shout to Henry. He sent us a wonderful Christmas Card Henry. Man You I mean maybe maybe the listener the decade. I don't WanNa you know. But this guy is He's the listener of the de Gabe. He's demand you know and that and then you know we got. There's a there's a wild man living in Scotland it'll Chris Ross. Tom Stabler And So so thank you. Henry will will be going to the art house tonight. In your honor and Daniel Daniel sent over a stack of magazines and an N. W. O. Hat. Thank you very much. Oh I got a weird notice in the the Po box that of course nobody at the post office could help me with but it was like it was dated with. Like you know if you don't pick this. Yeah like Bach like we're sending it back right and then it was like the date that they wrote. It was the day before. They said they're setting it back. And I'm like what what what kind of fucking notices this so if anybody sent anything and it got returned that I I'll take the blame. That's on me. It feels like it's the post office. Being shitheads heads but I but I know that people who worked for the Post Office are wonderful people. It's hard work. It's very hard work. Also but I'm just saying no notice is not much note I have our. I've already got a A Tokyo Dome Program lined in for you so if anyone reaches out. You've already got one coming you for for both nights. I think it's one program to rule them all. It's like the Lord of the Rings Thing ligers final. You know. I'm sure that's feature prominently in there her. Yeah that's crazy dude. The fucking domes happening This coming weekend Saturday Sunday basically write how yeah dude. Something of that he added added Moly shut. Brother Brother But you got sidetracked so we got some magazines for that we got some serious magazines will always good to check out the classic periodical literature. I Love Them. I absolutely love of old man. I like to flip through and then I came back man checking them out of the Library Acceptance Archive. It's right so these these will stay here when they're ready. Send the my way Elvis no I mean Jesus Christ Christ as big as he was. Excuse me our Lord Savior but huge. I mean one of the most over guys have all time like Moore Adam and he's really shutdown shutdown throat like Roman really all. They really started his run. You know. Sorry Ma'am go ahead But it's just crazy. It's crazy to think of the beginning of the decade twenty ten and then watching wrestling watching. WWe The pipe bomb happens at the very beginning of the decade and an almost almost such a interesting almost symbolic moment because of how much wwe had to change in the past ten years or nine years ten years because of all it is twenty nineteen but it is. It's the ten year we are in the tenth year. Twenty ten was the first year. See I don't I don't do grey with math but when you lay it out that simply exactly. Yeah you're forty four years old but you are in your forty fifth year. Sure you know you can be your six months old. You're in your first year dig and I act like a baby constantly mm-hmm the sacrificial lambs that Siham Peng Daniel Bryan kind of were in that company company And then Sam punk finally walking out and then Daniel Bryan reaping the the benefits of that also just from a size and shape standpoint. That's what I mean to because it's because we went from that the chew thousands the guys from the ring of honor's and the TNA's it's like the guys from ring of honor it's like Oh you're fucking indie guys you don't Outta work and you're not big enough and you're not big enough or your or your fat. Even going into the decade was just like well. I don't know how these guys are ever going to. I Love Ring of honor and whatever whatever else dragon gate and Shit. But I'm like I don't see how any of these like evolve one. I think had Adam Cole and Kyle Rally at definitely a Colorado. But it's like I'm not sitting. They're going like these fucking. Oh my God and if you look at pictures of those two in twenty ten yeah Oh my God yeah fucking like they look like children and Kara. We're also forget about the all the car that we we went to assure watch. You know Toyota Manami Toyota. Now you're talking about like fall in love with Chuck Taylor. Because then of course he was showing dragon gate. USA as well Johnny. Gargano Claudia was still there again. We when we saw Jon Moxley on that fuck in Dragon Gate at USA show. I was just like who. Is this. An really who. Who is this greasy emaciated man? And now it's like you turn the dial ahead we're talking about the top guys in the business. Yeah I. How is Chris Jericho still on top? That's incredible I also think all that is also affected by why those deaths you're talking about because then right the juice has gone or is is vastly diminished. And so not only. Can you be six foot. But you also don't have to have one hundred extra pounds of muscle that don't belong right because that's the other thing with like with Bruno coming back because you can talk about okay. It's a squeaky clean MPG product on TV. But so so so is nineteen eighty five. You know it was the shit that Bruno saw backstage with like you. You know the fucking around and the fucking the drugs and the drinking and the and the bullshit you know. God Forbid Bruno. I walk into the men's room to go take a PISS there's A. There's a young man upside down duct tape to a urinal suddenly area as a matter shoney's outside of Atlanta just hadn't perfected the the mobile video game. I mean that's like you talk about these guys like Kevin. Nash tells that Amazing Story on the fucking K.. FEHB commentaries where he's like he had A. He had a thing of aspirin. He's he's this is this is probably when he came back to fucking ruin. See 'em punks career He goes back and he does the The thing where he pulls out the the thing of aspirin from his from his bag he's in the Locker Walker many shakes it and he's like nobody looked back in the day everybody everything would have stopped and in the locker room and everybody will look suit. You had nobody fucking looked. Businesses is going to hell You Know Big Kev He's not going to be on the air crews because he got a role he's a movie. It's a fucking Alec Baldwin. Pictures shut up the small potatoes so he had a lot of politics to talk. They get to stay off the boat this year. I'll get along see I. It wasn't it wasn't I thought it might have been a call from from his friend. Paul Chris Ross is still going to be on the boat though say Blah Blah. You know this this This was the decade man. I mean I'm anxious to see that episode of e w more than most is Chris. Rock somehow gone appear on on the procreative Tom Sivler. Oh Wow facebook memory. Eleven years ago. Today I posted on facebook the Of video about the honor Inaki he could be in the shape shifting reptiles and shit. I can't believe still in conspiracies then eleven years ago another thing to change you got away from when did Massawa di was that in the tens or no while I was actually going to look up all the guys we lost. I remember I was either walking to the subway that warrior getting off and and I saw and I remember taxed you but I don't remember when it was. I know exactly where I was might have been before four because by ten. If like those guys are signed a feel like because because heroes still in was like in Noah he was there right Bison Smith's alive like why before twenty ten. You know 'cause hero was there that night you know really yeah. I don't know if I realized that you're Cassius own. Oh Oh Cathy it's own. Oh let me see because I want to Wrestler sure do I just. I just go to David. shoemakers fucking twitter's and that all he fucking posts about how wrestlers. Who died it? You wrestlers into Google. The next the suggests wrestler's ear wrestlers. Who Died June of o-9 Wow so not too far before but Premature professional wrestling deaths breath. It gets its own page on Wikipedia. You know yeah now. Oh Oh John. Oliver John Miller said No. It's just it's it's mentioned because he did that thing this year. He did the deal he did the deal. The watcher McCall it. He did the daily the Job Bing. Bang boom don't see they. Listen by Age Sean. I would like this by date of death of possible. That too morbid. No I was sighing on your behalf. Chris Benoit's forty. I'm going to leave you in the graveyard for just a second some bitch. I'd take a quick leak. There's no quick leads with the Wino- US as I'm the water king and I have been for the whole decade. Oh yikes oh. Aren't Mike Sharpe died. I guess I did know that. Jesus did you guys hear. uh-huh sneeze like a maniac like a fucking wild man right. Dead wrestlers list. I just I Wrestlers who died there. It's so it's it feels so restless restless restless who died in the last ten years. Okay let's try that see. I don't want a video I just want an actual list you know. Is that so hard. Because I mean it's like it feels like it's like it feels like this used to be such a prominent like topic especially in in the two thousands. It was just like your wrestlers. Die Wrestlers I all the time. It's really fucked up. It's really fucked up weird you know. And then in the twenty honey tens. It just felt like that I mean it. Just it stopped happening you know. I don't WANNA watch dumb video but it feels like that's the only thing that all forty four wrestlers who died in the twenty hands ends but then this video was posted in two thousand seventeen. So then how could you say Gimme a break. GimMe a break pal. I'm clicking on the link. Two years ago all the wrestlers who died in the twenty tens fucking still two more years. Dude Food Bro. I've amped I've I've been really I've been vamping it up. I couldn't help but hear you over my urine stream and I feel like the one thing you forgot to do. As soon as I left was remember your blood pressure. Remember number you blood pressure gotta get one more one more of those in before the end of the decade. Remember your blood pressure okay Reid flair we. We mentioned him. Yeah JC Bailey You know him now. CCW Guy I I W A mid south what that was that was that Elvis. I didn't hear it. I heard I heard something. But I'm guessing lance cade. Yeah Yep Trevor Murdoch sold that's right. Trent acid yes you ever see him WHO's the guy says year? But not all the time I think I think I must have seen him but not not very much no and it just that sounds like a He might have even been pretty much gone from them by the time I started because I didn't go to a ring. Honor Show until Oh six this guy man. What year was evolved one ten shit? Oh nine so the summer of Oh nine is when I went to the first dragon gate. USA USA show in Philly at the EC W arena. Yeah and then they started evolve and if you recall evolve was like Danielson and polskie came up with that right. I think even Brian Davison is a guy who was like. Let's call evolve. It'll be this evolved. Whatever and then he gets signed so then he immediately league before they even get going so then Davey Richards sorta going to be the face and then Davey Richards He remember to impact or something. He found a ring of ring of honor. Thing were they were. He not know remember he got married and his wife didn't want to wrestle. He is going to leave the business right but but there ended up being a thing between tween evolved ring of honor which there is already some heat because the Polski was fired by ring of honor. You know that's when all the you know whatever so But those two things happened like back to back like Dragon Reagan fired by bringing up on Because I think they were at a point where they're like. We want to change direction. You know like We WanNA bring in Jim Cornet. At first it was I think it was actually Adam Pearce was the first guy who got the book after Suppo- ski laughed. And they like we're GONNA go to more of like an old school. Psychology is not going to be because I think I think Polski had been there for a long time but he also was very like like hold holding onto control and so when did Feinstein get. Oh that was that was probably Oh we can find that out too. That's before I started going so we four four four five is when he was out So then in yeah in like eight or something like that suppo- skis out then. Pierce takes over and and then slowly they you know they had their hd net TV TV show all that shit that happened Yeah so that was like a cause them. Then when do you do. When would you say delirious then starts booking completely just guessing? I'm going to say a EH twelve. Who knows but maybe it was before that you know what it might have been before that because I feel like seeing I feel like I must must've seen him on well? He was in a company. He was a wrestler. Oh he had been in the right but when he takes over the book that's what I'm saying like his was arrested before four. Even when Polski was there you know like him and Evan Bourne and Daisy Hayes were like group or at least say that's my recollection election. I know delirious and daisy as were together but now here's a guy I would love to hear you talk a little bit about that. We lost Larry Sweeney any. Oh dude larry fucking sweeney sweet and sour man He should be on that list of of of talent of waste talk. 'cause I always say like seeing punk wasted talents right But Sweeney who was a wrestler Kara and He also had created his own the Texarkana Championship that he would take around. Defend just like such a talented talker. And so then he began in Ring Bonner as a manager. He formed sweet Sour Inc.. which had Chris hero which had what's her name Sara del Rey. Del Ray and Bobby Bobby Dempsey the big guy. The Guy who looked like the kid from bad Santa I think he be manage. Kings wrestling probably shit happens like party. Naked just an amazing Amazing town and there's there's there's footage of him there's a there's a promo that cannot find from Japan where Danielson is like at a table doing like a press conference and Larry Sweeney sweeny either interrupts him or something. It's fucking tremendous. There's the one with flair when flair was in ring. Honor for a hot second making those shots which then resulted resulted in a lawsuit. That was pretty early in in the decade. Because he didn't you know he took the money and then didn't show up for some of the dates and That was around the time. We're watching his fucking shoot. We're at a black guy. And he's I'm fucking But Larry Sweeney man. Whatever like I think he was under a hood Sakarov for part of it But that dude anything you can find with him in it is fucking entertain. He's like he's the precursor to I mean he's got some Heenan in them but it's like in that realm. It's like you know He. I think he had to have affected the chuck Taylors and the Ardy Ardi Evans and those guys. Because it's like he was funny but it was like it was like people trying to get his hand getting their hands on him and ring of honor was like a big deal for a long time. I'm you know and then finally happened in that but there's I forget who I if it was. There's some dock that they did on WWE Network are off. It was steen or rollins. But it's one of them where there's a group picture. Oh yeah at Ribeira. Do you know the one. I may on Sweeney's definitely in the picture and it's like a everyone in the picture you know is like a wwe guy. Now Face a Clinton Kingston we're tight. We're very tight Yeah Yeah Yeah just like anyone who was around him. You know I think speaks like yeah very high. The guy as far as like wrestling acumen. Yeah talent what a shame. I mean the fact that the the the Kara title right in which they had their first pay per view in this decade. I was there and it was the twelve large. I think it was called high noon. It was the twelve large judge Tournament or whatever which is his like you say. Twelve large brother talked about his pythons and Yeah and it was Eddie. Kingston beat Cracking rush right to win that. Yeah got a little misty. That night boy. I was watching it on my couch. Look you take the bus man. What happened I dunno yeah to life? Hey it happens at the speed of life so I don't know. Do you think I just need to sit here alone and get high you were like. I'm afraid there's going to be people with the body building magazines on the bus. I don't WanNA get wrapped up. I don't know I got I I need to. I need to not leave my house. Tell me if you know this name. A grand ninety one a guy from like either Mitch Oku pro or Osaka Pro Mitchell pro. Yeah E. C. W. A. Age all Japan New Japan. War Yeah I don't think I ever saw an EC- W but I remember like because I used to. I have some. Maybe I still do at my sister's basement some Mitch and Oku in some Osaka Doc. Approach tapes this Guy L. E. Hoed D. C. and chorus. He was shot. I don't know the son of seeing cars that would make him in the In that in the Horace Family Alberto del Rio Yeah Yeah Yeah right I think the prevent because I don't see because it doesn't Paraguay junior awful. What year is that? That's like last a couple of years right. Yeah two thousand fifteen so I would have guessed two years ago about the time you turn forties GonNa live that one down or will let me ever ever see some of these guys that that died In this decade not as familiar money with thunder from C. M. L. L. Lionheart from icy W and P C W But like you go the decade before it's like yeah it's like everyone which it's it's I think it does? It does again go to show how much things changed. Yeah in the last ten years. No it's crazy. See how many how many how many How many rustling matches by Smith yet loved by Smith how? How many wrestling matches do you think? We've seen live this decade off the charts man. Can I mean fucking shorts quite a bit. The kind of Co one tough enough three with John Morrison died Matt Cappitelli Right. So that's that's the guy who he got. He had like a brain tumor. Yeah he was in Lovie w right up shit that was last year. Yeah well he he I think he was out of the business because because he'd been sick but he had fought it and maybe kind of got over comment and then it came back. Or some real recollection collection. Yeah that's terrible I mean because the other thing like I fucking worked worked there. You're like so that years than I was. I was at a wrestling show two three times a week a year. Yeah so that's a hundred shows except I guess you weren't watching like I'm saying like that you sat not you sat but like that you watched watched live in the crowd. Well I mean but even when you're working you're not you're probably not at the monitor the whole time right you have Well yeah well no well well well well. The balloon was known as the rose. Even when the bloom is off the rose and by that I mean if somebody somebody was like I'd be like what's the dark match Xsara versus Tyson Kidd. I'm like Oh fuck I would run out there and watch it. You know when fucking Moxley was came in and and he was doing the dark matches and he I would go out and watch his match every single town we are into watches. Romo when that infamous night I met you in grand rapids. Because he came out. He's still has Ryan Jacket right when the dark right Cesar still wearing the rugby outfit. That's right he means his are. Were teamed up. That was my guy. Yup man ham in Damien Sandow me and The prime time players for a little bit when they had who's who's a W. A. WHO's the the mouthpiece they had. Who then he made a joke about Kobe? Bryant Oh right remember yes the guy who had the talk show with fucking yes Talk Show and and Tony Atlas was like who fuck I can see him also over the weekend a great a picture on twitter of Snoop dogg ice tea and titus this. O.`Neil an ice tea posted it so it's not even like he was like what the fuck he was like he goes snoop Dogg me. Titus O'Neil on our West Coast Shit or whatever like wow now I mean. It's such a strange picture. Because it's it's just a picture of Snoop Dogg and ice tea and then like Tyson Titus O'Neil has just walked in then I see. There are other photos of them as well. That looked more like it was meant to be drained You know it's funny when we went to the signing with with Apollo create an titus. O'Neil yeah a cruise what I say created I was like this. No this is just me. I'm always like this guy doesn't remember me. You know yeah I 'cause I was like He was on annex. T like I- I shadowed tomcats yellow when he was doing some stuff and I forgot like I came up with the name the prime time players and was like but with once that guy got fucking fired. They didn't really need me for like promos. Okay do you think think my picture still in titus his phone one hundred dollars eight. W that was. That was their manager. A W Abraham Washing yes right yes yes S.. What's he doing now? He's wrestling good. All right he goes he goes has by the ring. Name goat. Wow one of the Kobe. Bryant joke controversy is an entry on his wikipedia. Let's too bad. Yeah did not script that Ashley. Are you sure you didn't have nothing to do with that. Mattie is my hands are clean and this one I swear to God statute of limitations as up you can be straight up. No one's GONNA get trouble here verbiage. No Ashley Massaro. That was this year. Yeah that's right. It's awful definitely Vanua. You'll love bringing him up C.. Chris Canyon Oh yeah I was in two thousand ten. Oh Wow okay FARC Yup yup. Yeah Dude Fuck. That's right. The big influence on Brian Cage really In a cage has done. The mortis gimmick really. I didn't know that Yemen. Check out. Brian Cage on the Stone Cold Steve Austin podcast man. Okay Hack Hack Meyers. Do you remember him. NEC W I -member hack. But that was hack meyers fixer picture. There is a fixture kind of looks like the annual who we also lost. The name is sort of familiar but I don't. I don't know at Sushi Okie Dokie. He's in a motorcycle accident. Obviously Japanese guy. I don't know him. He was Noah but might have been in the later years. No that company's still around no it definitely. Wow because I mean after the because they are not associated with new Japan anymore No I don't think I don't think they ever were well. What am I like done some? Yeah I think they would trade a little bit. But I don't think they were ever like in business together. Gather but I don't think they're trading anymore. Oh well I don't know the Like the Suzuki gun thing right you now from noisier Viscera Sean O'hare Hector. Garza all gone all gone. The last ten years man company open leader to Raven. They're all gone sir. All but me balls Mahoney yes mahony died. All's Bowie died in two thousand sixteen McMahon. I guess I miss that. Probably just about forty one but I remember seeing. I remember seeing him in later times. You do a little in fact I think we you probably even saw him at that house a hardcore something where he just looked like he had someone pop them with a pin. You know he's like he just looked like deflated physically totally. We did axl rotten as well. We totally only saw balls Mahoney. Fuck that we see him. I mean it would have been that or you know totally. Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah you know I do know well. That's why I said. Well that's why I'm agreeing with you. I don't know why you're so upset all the time we got to end this decade where the Real Bang you just hear a bunch of commotion the Mike You Know You look no you. China that China passed away. Yeah Oh fucking grandmaster sex say yes sued that fucking Song Gebran Tueni. That was this decade. That was that was the wrestling song of the decade. No doubt if you if you haven't heard grandmaster sex as Sir it's on spotify. Yeah but do not number one when the bullet dude bladder with another bladder Jubran Dunes due grandmaster sexy when Jubran Jubran Ohio Busa. Yes that's right. Rosie Ludwig Borge died in two thousand ten. Yeah what about you Maga probably right. Her Resume Aga Mongol. Maga might have been an nine might have been. It might have been closer to after that. The trump Battle royal about a royal wrestlemainia. Don't you think yeah it's funny. I think both those guys were out of the company you know not too along after Lashley end but both guys in the main right. Oh my God lash. I mean it's like talk about a fucking I like. I don't care how big the crowd oude they drew was. It was like they were coming off of such a weak man of the year before like that was the one at the Rosemont horizon. Think about that Wrestlemainia at the Rosemont Rosemont horizon and then the main event was who mogg and Lashley and it's like well God damn we gotta bring in Donald Trump to fucking draw. fucking is a stone colds. They had to bring installing goal to be the REF. I still say if they had known Britney was going to shave her head brought her in and shaved her head. Can you imagine the number that would have been like Tyson partout. They would've launched the company. Could Ludicrous Vashon. She died at the beginning of the decade. That's crazy that's running through EMI. If this were if this were better organized I could get through Morbid. Well it starts with members remembering. We're just remembering we're looking RAB says in Memoriam I you so I don't want to go to Benghazi House we it's always be there. It'll always be there. Brad Armstrong Brad. Armstrong Armstrong boy. Let's talk about Unsung. Yeah not not by the boys. He's kind of like a wrestler wrestler. It was con- like Khan I remember once One of the writers assistance asked at Kaczynski. It was like it was like so. Wait like are the Armstrong's like are those wrestlers that we should be using and it's like no we've fucking idiot. He's but I would do that in the most playful way Ed was and is and will continue to be a great guy but he'd be like no no no when when guys like aren't and and Michael and whoever pitching ideas and they're like they're saying we could use like the arm like Armstrong's in this they're talking about the solid workers that type you know who were like you know everything you would need to get a match over over you know And frankly at any time I'm always fascinated especially when we do like the pay per view watch alongs or like I start dipping into the The the the network Kodiak your skull. You're you're not still diplomat area Zehra empty gatorade and hear what I'm Brad Armstrong's on the show. I'm always like I keyed Dan because I'm like. Yeah Yeah what's up and and it's never a mystery right rabbit. You know dog like that guy has got to be near the top. The list for for wasted talent. I Hate I don't like wasted. It's it sounds too harsh you know. I don't like that wasted talent type thing. I think it's just Underutilized were utilized sized. Well I don't know I just it's it's just there's Lost potential. Maybe but but you know it. Is that thing right. It's time to place its like does look coincide with the ability. Does the -ality coincide with you know. There's there's so many factors right. I mean fuck it. There's there's there's factors to the factors so many look beyond the factors actors. Look the Doug Furnas your big. Doug ferns mark. I can do some furnace. You Love Doug Firm Blonde Man. Maybe we better wrap this up. We gotta go around town. And we do the. Traffic's going to be insane buddy. Landau the body. I just know that I'll ultimate warrior. Come on everybody remembers that you you can listen to that. That's issue thirty two but if you're not into the ones that I'm not on then you probably don't want to but otherwise you could be but if you're looking to like hear me or whatever. I would devoid that particular now that that is a moment in time. That's that's one of those it's crazy it's happening in real time. I was at dodger stadium like I got a a text from somebody who worked at. WWe This was before the news broke anywhere. Yeah because like we're googling you can't get any info on it That was that. That's a while issue. What about Matt born? Yep that's is there a is. I mean the loss potential there. I mean he's it's like he's a solid solid worker. I don't think map learn. Like he's a hell of a hand and speaking of the dead but I I don't think he was going to be a top guy. He's doing what about when he dressed up like the gorilla. Rela midsouth hot angle. Well I all I know is when the when the head came off it was it was Dugan. Do Can Jim Dugan pallbearer. I thought I actually got to write and produce the last onscreen segment. Pallbearer Albert was over in one decade. I did I had a hell of a fucking dad. Shatman fucking but you know. That's amazing Randy Randy. Orton put tied them up into a wheelchair. Put them into the fucking Freezer Kidnapping Kane. They opened up the freezer pulls out. Pallbearer says your cane says yes from from me and then pushes him back in the freezer and Paul Bear. Let's Oh it's also the decade when Zack Ryder got pushed off. The all my God uh-huh sit in the writer's room Jericho's in there watching it and he turns to all of us in Jesus Christ he just took a fucking hell bomb randy savage approach. That was that was in two thousand eleven to. Oh right yeah. That's what I'm fucking sand dude. Yeah why you're you're so like Oh stop paying tribute to the wrestlers who died. Nobody gives a shit. Stop fucking Piper. Dude yeah man route meltdown. I know Rowdy Roddy Piper outside. Have I ever told that story on here. I think so but you know hit it. I'm standing in the back of meltdown. And this is this is before this is like that room was empty visit before that was like the show of shows. You know it was like that early. Oh my God. This was way early in the meltdown. Days and Kumo comes aren't by goes rowdy. Roddy Piper is outside and I didn't totally no what he said. I heard pipe and outside and I remember thinking like I'm about to go on stage. I don't know if I want to get high but then I was like of course I WANNA get high. I WANNA get high off so I go outside with them and I see Rowdy Roddy Piper getting into leg the shittiest car yeah and I was wearing a WCW shirt. At the time. And I just go I start going rot rod and like pointing at the shirt. Yeah and then he just he smiles and waves and just go rot rod and I blew Lua kiss off of a peace sign. I have no idea why. Not freaking out. I've never done that before my life. You are freaking more since. Wow One and done yet dude. Jadu dynamite kid. We mentioned before Mountain Fiji from fucking glow. Forget about it forget or get about it. You know who Mike Graham Right. That's right two thousand twelve that all went down The grams I just know that there's a couple more. Just WanNa go to Roddy Piper King Kong Bundy did not want to do a spot at beauty bar did events. Representation wasn't hot on it. Please you tell me. He answered his own comedy. He answered his own emails. Pretend to be somebody else. You can't tell me otherwise. Oh away you can't tell me. Otherwise moondog spike. You can't tell me big van Vader Fuckin- Jim the Anvil Neidhart. which just makes me think Gov Bret? Hart getting attacked the Hall of fame. Yeah you win. That is that that is one of the most outrageous moments in the history of the business. No thank you frankly you know. We were holed up in the garden at night cousin Luke. That's right that was another one. Where all of a sudden twitter starts blowing up? Why is why is bred heart-rending? What the Hell's going on and Lee Marshall the voice of fucking Tony The tiger and the WCW NITRO throw parties. Not The guy who always keeps turning up the voice of the WWL. Oh my God that guy shows up everywhere. He's following us he showed up but that NWEA taping and they're like this message has been brought to you by the new world order and it's just like people in the crowd were like. Oh my God uh-huh and I'm like guys. You don't find something to do. He was he was a he was a fixture at the one star cast. He's like he's like He's like a a principal belding except he was actually involved in the business just keeps showing up is exactly a Mr Belding when he fucking commandeered that X.. Pock Doc podcast which granted that needed someone to steer the ship. But not him will. He couldn't steer as the no they needed someone to steer it and it wasn't him. Yeah and then and I don't even remember what he asked Kevin Nash to do. But he was like he's like could you give a little Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah and. Nash was like I didn't fuck and listen to you back. Then what makes you think. I'm GonNa do what you say. Tell me to do now. Big CAV Your favorite wrestler the decade. I think it's it's still Danielson. Yeah I mean I'm just saying yeah my favorite. Yeah I mean it's tough. It's tough I think I gotta go. Hiroshi Tani Hashi but I mean Danielson. It's like what a A. What a complete like story are too? I mean for both them but with Dana. Brian with the the the greatest wrestlemainia performance you know two matches kills it that him triple h that is. It's it's such a great match and made all the better by Stephanie. Definitely seconding it. No doubt incredible. Then he likes saves that Randy Orton Batista match by like like the only time in the history of my phantom that I was like this was made better by being a three way yeah And then almost immediately after the having to retire. Yeah then coming back. I can't believe Vince. McMahon as leading that deflate in his hands but of course he is well. We'll see man. Well we'll we'll see you may see tonight. That's true crazy dude with shave at but I gotTa Ago Hiroshi Tallahassee. Just I mean I ain't GonNa be mad at that I exactly like like revitalize that company made it the most for me the most exciting in company in pro wrestling to watch new Japan pro wrestling his matches even even as recently as this year fucking five plus stars you know yeah his chest. Okay looks like a dude's face and looking at other sputtering on what was going on in that photo it doesn't you. You just caught it at a weird angle x hail favorite wrestler of right here right now. I was sort of focused on the decade. I know me too. Yeah I think that's okay. Yeah Yeah I think they'll forgive US still favorite wrestler a everybody keeping score at home Chocolate chocolate shit out to eat a pig baggage Shiites chocolate up for the good guy spent several on twitter. Vince Study Ronin instagram. Miss Your Pal Matt McCarthy encouraging you to follow me on all forms of social media at McCarthy redhead we will be seeing you in the new year. Thank you everyone that came out on Friday to My half hour taping at dynasty typewriter. Thank you Vince. Since for hosting the shit out of it and It was fun it was a very good show. Yeah there's a lot of fun. We get some shadow. We got one Well God Damn Damn get ready for the final shout out of twenty nine thousand nine even though you're listening to this in the future Graham Graham billy the Gramm Luke Graham for star. Billy grab also gram of cocaine. Vince McMahon. Goodbye this podcast.
Trump's Taxes, 'Venom' vs. 'A Star Is Born,' and the Disappearance of Jamal Khashoggi | The Press Box (Ep. 536)
"David, it's time to experience New Mexico. I just made reservations to head to my favorite state in America after Christmas, bringing the whole family, we're gonna hit Sandia peak tramway going to eat some of that red and green chili breathing, clean air, like nowhere else in the United States. I love New Mexico, and I can't wait to get back people thinking about going should go to soak up the unique beauty and rich cultural diversity with the influences from native tribes, the wild west, and even Shorto kief. They should check out one of the funky small towns in New Mexico, like pie town were stopping Albuquerque, which is my favorite place in the verse as you road trip down route, sixty six, learn more and plan your next trip at New Mexico dot org slash press box as New Mexico dot org slash press box, New Mexico, true. David, former White House communications director, hope Hicks has joined FOX as head of PR. What I want to know is if every former Trump I'd had to work at FOX on what job would they do. For all the things that we've said about Steve Bannon over the months that this is actually he's actually like job appropriate for something in a television network. Having worked in Hollywood for for some period of time. Although he, you know, he did up doing something boring just like being head of programming, or you know, demographic research or via a production or something. Let's see. Who else? Who else? Who else are the old, the great Stephen Miller. Did you see him doing well? I mean, he's a fine wordsmith right? Should he should be? They should give them a head writer, what's the? What's the? What's the? What's the best show for Stephen Miller to write on Faulk. How about last man standing right in his wheelhouse? Last man standing takes a weirdly political bent, but that's fine. It was. It was pretty close there anyway. Would you put Stephen Nugent on FOX business, or do you think because he's striking more is like, like, should they pull? They do a max headroom revival and just put his head in the box to see said, fifty fifty between that and wearing Don Imus Zolt cowboy hat on FOX business in the morning, how I was going to nominate Mike fat. Mike Pence gives me for FOX and fell Sunday, but I'm afraid to walk out. Oh, that's good. He would be good on that. I mean, he, he would, you know, sometimes that show gets a little bit too manic, you know a little bit too upbeat. Bring him back. Yeah, gravity. Today's wouldn't them really important sport if abo- we are the new cast of lethal weapon. This is the press box. A part of the ringer podcast network. The press box is the media podcast. We are not allowed to declare this system is broken and then not say why it's broken. We are Bryan Curtis, David shoemaker of the ringer, a big show today. David, I of with Brett Cavanaugh on the supreme court. We will talk about the massive New York Times story about Trump's taxes in particular, the way the times rolled it out a case study in how you do journalism in two thousand eighteen. Second, we're gonna talk about the coverage of last weekend's too big, romantic comedies. Venomous stars, born, just kidding, I think. And finally, the strange and haunting disappearance of Washington Post journalist, Jamal, kashogi pluses, always the overworked, Twitter joke of the week. But David, let's start with Trump's taxes on Wednesday. The New York Times published a fourteen thousand word financial biography of Donald Trump by David Barstow Suzanne Craig, and Russ buehner. Charging Trump with engaging in these are their quotes, dubious tech schemes and outright fraud should we cover a few highlights of the peace, please. You read it. Did you read the whole thing beyond, you know, and, and this is why I'm excited to talk about it. Precisely why I'm excited talking. This'll be newsworthy for you to the main focus. I think it is how Fred Trump father of the current president, funneled money to both Donald and his other children. So when it comes to the revelations here with that Trump was earning two hundred thousand dollars a year by age three. He was a millionaire by age eight. When Fred Trump was near death Trump and his siblings got control of his buildings and claimed in an effort to avoid gift taxes that they were worth forty, one million dollars. They would later sell the buildings for sixteen times that much over a ten year period. There was a company they created the siblings and Fred in the civilised created called the all county building supply and maintenance, which is an incredibly fake name. If that doesn't sound like a front, I don't know what does pretty sure they imprison Wiley. Coyote gets crates deliver dome with bought with that spray painted on the side, right? But it was it was sort of a creative nontaxed way to centrally devote excuse me to divert money from Fred Trump's buildings to the younger Trump's couple of interesting things about the peace to me. One was the language the times used, which I think was very vivid for those for that kind of investigation. They called Fred Trump Donald Trump's man quote, unquote in one of the various things. They also went back and revisited some of their reporting clean in nineteen seventy six profile of Donald Trump, called it a spectacular con- it just read very differently. If I if I told you fourteen thousand word newspaper investigation into Trump's manses, right? You can't particular sense of how that's going to read this read very vividly, almost gripping in. Hey, I was looking at it in the newsprint pages row once they rapidly turning the pages because it does take a while to get through, but but as rapidly as as humanly possible. What struck you about the unveiling of this big piece of granite of investigative journalism? I, I was with you on the language. I mean, I, I read, I read most of it. My my first reaction to it was seeing that seeing that it dropped. I was eagerly click through read probably I don't know three thousand four thousand words before I actually took note of how much more there was to go. And then and then was you know a little bit the felt a little bit burdened going forward by the amount that that that was that was beyond me. Thankfully, New York Times sort of ruled out the cheat on their own. We'll get to that in a little bit. I think that I think that without, you know, without deliberately without demeaning anything, that's that. We've talked about previously on the show or any other really significant issues that are that are going on the world right now at felt like a rather a little bit more like hardy each or vegetables in a good way, sort of new cycle. I can't say that lasted much longer than any other blip that's been on the in the news since Trump won the presidency or came came onto our came into the political sphere, but but you know, there was a so much there to break down that actually felt like I was being informed by by much of the television. I watched on the subject and. Yeah, the supplemental stuff that I read, I mean, that was what a lot of people mentioned this week is the Cavanaugh was such a just, you know, giant magnet for everybody's attention that an article in the New York Times that charged the president of the United States with quote, unquote, outright fraud basically got swallowed by Friday Saturday, you know so much that when we were looking at the show as well, this is still we should. We should still talk about this, right? This is this is still a big deal, right? I guess I was sort of amazed not only by the quality of reporting which was exceptional, but the the roll out of the piece was interesting in this moment. We're in first of all this. There was this documentary, the chemo on Showtime about the thing because they're now whenever we have a big time speeds. We also have a Showtime documentary. This is called the family business Trump and taxes, and sort of follow the reporters at various moments in various stages of the peace. Weep. Part of the documentary was everyone's standing around getting ready to publish the piece. Have you noticed how this has become a new kind of moment in publishing? You know, I was thinking like in the old days, it's the Humphrey Bogart, you know, going rawal oppresses, you know, we're gonna. We're gonna. We're gonna fight corruption and city hall. And now it's everyone's sitting around a computer, wait waiting to push the button by Jodi cantor tweeted about the moment a year ago when they published the first Harvey Weinstein investigation that was sitting around a laptop. Essentially, I love how that's become a new thing. And the second part of this was one of the writers after they publish it going over and high fiving, Sam Dona of this as a managing editor of the times and then going over looking at the analytics of a piece that's the second act raid is not how word on the street is. This is a great story. You're actually just looking at a screen and looking at the analytics and kind of marveling. We've all been there. We the ringer dot com has been there too. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's pretty funny. The other things that we've been interesting where and the times published the time self aggregated this piece. Yeah, Mike, Isaac is one of the reporters that this is how you do it cannibalize yourself before others can and put out essentially, kind of like a shortened version of the, they called it eleven takeaways from the times as investigation Trump's wealth. What did you make of that sort of string? I was grateful for it as as to continue to continue the most important thread in this conversation, which is the way that David read the re consumed this article. Yeah, that it popped up when I was about what halfway through and and suddenly you know, you could just kind of go to the cheetah. It used to be that we'd have to wait for, you know, Slater, the Daily Beast to to Evan or now a million other sites to to aggregate these things you to bullet point at for us or wait for the evening news shows. Sort of take their take their spin on it. But yeah, I mean it was nice and it was nice because there was, I mean, it sounds so obvious, but you know, it had the the sheen of legitimacy not just because it came from the source that broke the news with because it came from the New York Times. No, and it was and. And and to have everything sort of, you know, simplified I thought was was was really interesting. I mean, it was almost like it was almost like they, you know, they the, the big, the fourteen thousand word version was the kind of it was like a mathematical formula in reverse, right? It was a fourteen thousand word part was showing your work and the the bullet points was like, just, you know, the the part of the math problem that the teachers gonna read and and then be. And then after that, the writers started to be like when it went to the tweet threat. Right? That's like, that's like part three of this rollout? Yeah. Were you sort of you do? It's like a self aggregation, but in tweet form. So you can just hit all those high notes, right? Yeah. And then this and then this, yeah. And then and then just in case we needed the old school moment. Suzanne, Craig actually went to the printing, press the ties printing press as out on the front page was very cool and tweeted this video of the papers coming out which. Really did feel like the old Humphrey Bogart movie. Uh-huh. Like, oh, man, you know here we are like this. And then by the way the times ran the piece in its entirety again in Sunday's edition of the paper, yes, which was old school. I, we're going to, you know, those those bastards aren't getting away with this. We're just going to run it again. Then that sound like a tabloid like news, Pat writers circa nineteen fifty or something at the. It was really well done. I mean, it should be said about Suzanne Craig's, Twitter thread that it was clearly. I mean, I clearly it seemed very clearly to be set up an advance just like everything else, right? I mean, it ruled out later than the rest of the pieces in sort of deliberate sequential order. But everything. All these tweets were like ready to go and just say, this is part of the deliberate publishing strategy as I'm sure was publishing it on the Sunday. She also went on, you know, I think she had a couple of stops on on on news shows and interviews to, but I saw on Rachel Maddow just sort of discussing how the donuts were. Made, you know, I mean, they did go over some of the more interesting parts. You know, some of the interesting parts of the story, but a lot of it was just sort of like, how did you guys get to this point? You know, what's the detective? If there's a detective story at all and speaking of detective stories. There's also this interesting little sidebar that that it's, it's been rumored now that the trumps cousin, John Walter must be the source of much of this information since he kept a lot of it in his basement. Go up a lot of Fred Trump's records in his basement, but which I think is just, you know, I, I mean, every story as we've discussed before. And this is Glenda Blair from politico who's actually who's written on the subject a lot, but she knows the Trump family and you know, and and kind of made this connection she, she wrote a book about the Trump's. Yes, yes. And and now as a political, right? Right. And but but the but I loved it every store. And we've talked about this before every every piece of intially gets into the detective work of how the piece came to be, you know, an and what? What is the secret? Who's who the secret sources and everything else. Remember when we were about to find out the source of who wrote the New York Times op-ed about Trump and the White House, and then we forgot that that ever happened. There was a piece of the days. I mean, basically the even the the Sherlock, the sherlock's at the White House had kind of given up. So when I feel is whenever we absolutely know who it must be. It turns out to maybe not exactly be them. We'll we'll also there is the relentlessness of the news cycle that Trump, or you know, whatever you think about it. I mean, many people assume many people say that Trump uses the this, the news cycles, the speed, the current speed, the news cycle to is advantage. Just like you were talking about cavenaugh drowning this out of this draining drowning cavenaugh out for. I mean, it it all kind of it's it's all consuming. But I mean, I guess if there's if there's an old leakers or secret op Ed writers in the White House, they benefit from that too. Right. I mean, the the, the attention, the spotlight is off them, or you know the the hunt is over no twelve hours after it begins. It was really interesting. I thought the documentary that the writers talked about the mo- one of the moments they really decided to go in on all this and spend a lot of time on it was when Rachel Maddow speaking of Rachel Maddow unveiled the fact that she had part of Trump's, I think it was two thousand five tax retur. Uh-huh. And that turned out to be such a spectacular bust. That that weirdly was an event because there were some pages may public of that. That's those are some of the threads started in that convinced them that there was maybe a story here which sort of turned from each change from a tax story into a larger story about Trump's finances. I'm gonna play a couple of clips from the documentary to for you because I think this is fascinating. We are now at this moment where there is so much transparency about journalism and how to as you say about how journalism comes together. It is, let me say for the record as somebody who who sorta does for a living one. It is fantastic. I love it. I love understanding these things number two there his way too much of it. Right. All I feel I look on Twitter all the time. Tons of people are telling me their process. I didn't want another process. I didn't ask right. It wasn't. It wasn't the giant Trump investigation. It was some profile they wrote and it's like, no, no, it's okay. He didn't. You don't have to tell me hang together. I, I really don't wanna know, but one of the great. Revealing things about these documentaries is not the Slough thing and the kind of all my gosh, we found it. We broke the story to me. It's the little things about how journalists especially journalists at big newspapers actually operate. So here's a highlight. This dean became the guy who runs the New York Times last fall trying to convince the writers that they should publish this year ago. Okay. Because Trump was talking about tax reform that guys, this is your peg, this is it and listen to how David Barstow one of the writers subtly this. This is just a great lesson in editor writer relationships how gathered or makes the suggestion in the writer without exactly saying no sort of turns it around. Listen this. He's actually sort of flirting with an examination of of his tax history and how they use the tax laws because things he said in the last couple of weeks since there's a Wittig celery, the completion, I think it would be because of my fear is you're gonna. Miss an amazing news window to write about Donald Trump and his taxes. It might even influence the debate over tax reform. If people got a sense of what you know, how one wealthy family over generations were you able to use America's tax laws to avoid paying taxes and rich themselves is that's going to be such a powerful moment in the debate here you're saying totally rall. Been around. We've been in the rodeo long enough to know how this works, but I would say actually the tax story is this different beasts. We've been piecing together from the public records in other documents that we already have in hand. Basic notion. We're seeing things that are clearly over the line in terms of legality, things that look like, just fraudulent behavior. We need to talk to more people. David, that isn't a Goshi action between a writer and utter right there. You never get find a better right diet. You're not saying, no, we can't run this right? We need to talk to more people. We will let me tell you the stories, not exactly about exiting more. The story is really about why there is no journalist listening to this podcast who has not had that conversation with her. So I found that was I those fabulous. I was like I said, those are the moments I now come to see with these documentaries because that's that's Charles, must really like, and yeah, you know the the, if. It's, yeah, little meetings like that with your boss or the other meaning that you have. And that's part of why this particular story is so compelling is, you know the conversation that we've had a lot of the ringer is in a story by story or a pitch by pitch basis, you know, does it is this actually, is this a? Is this a feature story? Is a blog post? Is this video? Is this a podcast like what is the best format for you know, a pitch that somebody has, and you know, with the with the with with this big tax Trump tax story, you know the time tried to, you know, hit for the cycle to to mix metaphors or whatever, but the but, but it's interesting. Just in terms of how much on how quickly it the story sort of dissipated. It's, it's interesting to wonder if there is a if there is a best format for a story like this in two thousand eighteen or if or if all of the formats is in, you know, if everything at once is the is the is indeed the way to go. That's a really good question. I probably think you take everything at once because if you're a beast like the times you're trying to feed print, you're trying to feed your daily podcast. You are now trying to feed various television arms, whether they're ones you're going to be producing as is about to happen or television arms like Showtime that are sort of following you around. I think it's all of those things at once and you know the the thing about a dissipating as it's just, I mean this, this would consist the Trump thing, right? Just have so much stuff and so much so many things like this that are just would be unimaginable to learn about another president after he was elect. Sure, but, but in this case, this is exactly what's happening. Can I play one more Mon were cliff in the dock. And this thing I love about these latter-day journals, documentaries, it's just how journalists actually feel about things before everyone starts taking bows and we decide everything's important. This is Russell buehner than the one of the writers of this story, ten years. Really sleep. Largely due to the quality documentation we have. We can proceed with confidence, but whether people are gonna chair in, never know kind of how that's going to go until you hit fun. Okay. And again, that's another point. I think that gets lost him as Geraldo journalist era that we're in is it's it's all right. It's all public service. It's all you know, get into the truth and and and you know, holding the powerful to account every journalist really secretly worries. Is anybody gonna read this? Is anybody going to care about this blockbuster exhaustive investigation? And again, I just love seeing those those moments that to be, is that to me is actual journalism versus you know, overly romanticized movie journals? Yeah. I mean, it's it's funny because you, you know, these are conversations again the we have the you and I would have you know about something else about someone else's piece. It's just it's, it's so you know, you know, months ago we talked about the times documentaries and you know whether or not it was possible to humanize the staff of the New York Times. In some ways. I mean, even for me that that does a lot because it's this, it feels like you know, this feel so vital to the public discourse and even on a story like that, there's that question and own. If you really wanted to have an all encompassing documentary, you should have live look at the newsroom of the Wall Street Journal in the Washington Post when it came out and record all the shit talk about this absolutely successful piece of journalism that nonetheless comes out of competing newsrooms. That would be the real experience of journalist, right? Here's here's the stuff we're going to say in private about the investigation that we'd while we go to Twitter and say what a fabulous piece piece of reportage by my colleagues of the New York Times that would truly capture the way journalists think. All right, which we do overwork Twitter tug of the week. Let's do it then. All right, David, the Twitter joke, where we celebrate a gag. That was so obvious that all of media Twitter made it at exactly the same time David before we leave the bread Cavanaugh story behind for a few days. Did you. See the New York Times piece about the nineteen eighty five bar fight. The Cavanaugh was involved in. He was a student Yale. The detail of this momentum details was that Cavanaugh was accused by a patron of throwing ice which couple people tried to downplay at a couple of other people's that you go into a bar and start throwing ice and see how that works out for you. The time story reads, Chad leading ten who is a Cavanaugh classmate. If you had to think of a name of one of Kavanagh's classmates at Yale would chat letting in your top three, I think I think bardo Cavanaugh would have been more believable than Chen letting anyway gentleman tune is. One of the guys who said the Cavanaugh was not being truthful. About the extent of his college. Drinking said that the altercation at the bar happened after a UB forty concert in nine hundred ninety five. So it was an over where Twitter joke to wonder, does red red wine may Kavanagh feel so fine. All of the time. Thanks to Anthony Ronzio for that one. I'm sure David. As you read the news last week, you notice that when Pennsylvania went searching for a moderator for its gubernatorial debate, it found Alex trebek's. Yes, Alex trebek's of jeopardy. Who proceeded to deliver a widely mocked performance where he hogged the Mike and made jokes about the Catholic church at one point, even making clear to the debate audience that he was not molested during his time at a Catholic high school. Can we hear a little bit of Alex trebek's opening bit? Yeah, listen, I'm back. Now when I was asked by the chamber, if I would come here and be the moderator for this event, I was not drunk. I love the nervous. Laughter I accepted immediately didn't give it a second thought. What on earth was. I thinking my gosh, obviously I'm not as bright as some of you people in the audience. Think I am. This is not a game show tonight. This is serious stuff, and I can't begin to tell you how much agony and stress I have experienced over these many months because I accepted that invitation, the evenings not about me, but I've spent four decades hosting television competitions with impartiality. And what I was very afraid of was that some of you would leave here tonight and say, well, our guy didn't do too well, but it was only because for Beck was so biased against him. I didn't want that to happen. So yes, I am very nervous, but I accept it. Wow, this is not about me, says Alexander back in the midst of a multi minute intro to a debate that is all about Alex trebek's. There's incredible, isn't it? Oh my gosh. If there is any doubt he was doing it his way without the assistance of like professional writers or any part of the production staff. That was that was clear about fifteen seconds and to have never seen so many flop during the bait that was really weird will doesn't surprise you David that after that performance that Twitter phrased most of its jokes, but extra back in the form of a question. Is not surprise. What is awkward? What is this shit show? What is an Alex trebek's filibuster wh what is Alex Rebecca? Not shut up. What is politics for three hundred dollars? And this is what happens when you genuinely need to ask a question such as what is a moderator without having the answer first. Great stuff on our own and finally. Fantastic. All right. This might be the overwork goat. I really am. And I think you know what I'm referring to, which is the warning text. We all got from President Trump last Wednesday. Do you want to hear some highlights in the immediate reaction to that. I'm here you go. Hello? I'd like to report a sexual predator sending unwanted text messages to one hundred fifty million women new phone who diss amber alert has already taken. So maybe an orange alert. And my favorite of the mall, Tiffany Trump receives. I ever text from her father that's. Thanks to Isaac chips for that. If you compare it a FEMA textile or to Trump's distant relationship with his youngest daughter, congrats ubaid the overworked, Twitter joke. All right, David, let's talk about the movies, shall we? He s to giant grossing movies arrived at the box office. This weekend. And after reading a ton about which movie a star is born or venom would be the big winner. All we are. We all just loser for carrying what? What do you think about. This was probably the biggest weekend in the biggest weakened at the movies in ringer history. I mean, certainly there have been bigger movies that have come out as far as ringer coverage goes. There's been a big Oscar weekends, you know, we've we've dedicated whole weeks to the Star Wars relaunch and various other, you know, big budget summer movie type things or ten pull movies. Sure. But a star is born is occupied. You know, the the, the interest in much of the consciousness of the sort of, you know, ringer group, think for the past month, two months. And then here came along venom to sort of, you know, swoop in and start, you know, trying to trying to battle for space now. It's really interesting be not going into this weekend. No one knew exactly what to expect out of either of these movies. I wrote a piece on the ringer, just trying to basically attacking the character of venom, not the movie character or not the film, but the comic book version of them, yes, but we'll get to some of that later. I'm sure, but, but you know, I think there was the expectations for venom were really low, and the expectations for for a star is born. We're maybe higher than they had been six months ago. I think you know, without getting too too deep, I think there is this really interesting tension with the star is born as to whether or not it was possible for something to be both good and both like fully subsumed by like internet meanness at the same time. And so there is this big question as to how far that could propel a movie like a star is born and venom, sort of had this parallel track where it started off feeling like. You know, another superhero tentpole and then started feeling like an almost certain failure of a superhero tentpole more akin to sort of not not a, not a full on failure, but but not not not on par with Spiderman or the vendors movies or anything like that. And then it sort of made it's made a comeback based on its good badness, maybe based on its own sort of secret meanness along the way. The whole point of this is to say that we take, we had these two movies in a world where in a world I'm doing, I'm doing a movie trailer right now. I can hear. I can hear the voice comes in a world where everything that we read about Hollywood is horse race commentary or more or the business of movie making commentary. And after all of the met sort of meta box office battles that we we've had over the years, you know, Star Wars versus history, that sort of thing. Here, we have a real showdown between two very different movies that we have. A lot in common and and you know, you sort of find yourself like it's hard to find the movie reviews on the New York Times website, because all you can get is all is all this kind of meta analysis or like when you Google, I don't want to denigrate the New York Times when you when you Google anything about venom or stars born, you're just seeing the box office records getting shattered and how they did against one another and not actually anything substantive about the movies themselves. Does that strike you as disastrous? He was right, or am I just to deepen it to really be able to see what everyone else to see though? I think you're exactly right, and I think it's like it's it is the way is the way we talk about movies now, which is this weird. Meta commentary of all you say. We say like there was like a showdown between the movies like. Exactly. You know, in this case there actually was they were. It was two very different interesting movies that were going at each other on the same weekend, but this is what we, they write this Bill every weekend, but going at each other to be number one at the box office. Right. Okay. What's interesting? What's interesting particularly for this in in this week is that there were really real source stories about online fans of lady Gaga or trolls, or something like that that were deliberately going on Twitter at in various comment sections and things to trash venom to drive people towards a star is born. All right. So that was the thing that happened. This was there actually seemed to be if I'm gonna keep this like, you know, boxing match horse race metaphor, resum going. There seemed to be bad blood between the movies in a way that there isn't normally, but I, but, but but, but that's maybe an aside, so continue. Well, yeah, I mean, that's so that was that was that was a funny story. I think the lady Gaga troll army, one of whom or one of the accounts. Told BuzzFeed. It's Gaga fans creating fake ID's to trash the venom premier. They're both getting released on the same day. So we want more audience for a star is born and in the sort of fake, one of the fake kind of venom, tweets got repeated over and over was I am the biggest marvel fan, but I just washed hashtag venom, and I don't know what to say. The great actually pretty good, right. Pretty fairly convincing is kind of a fan boy who's like me, and I really wanted to like this, but just wasn't. They're going to go see stars born instead on opening day. My favorite went, I don't. I won't wanna editorialize it too much was from at an Harrison. Mom had said, I saw hashtag Ben in which by the way, the sun, anyone with mom and their handle and and functional use of hashtags is just so transparent. I saw I saw hashtag venom last night and had to leave halfway through my children wouldn't stop crying at how bad it was. Luckily, a second prescreening of hashtag star is born was about to start, and now we are all crying, tears of amazement, and then this is this is thrown at the end. Please pray for my eldest. He is still in a coma, so I'm not sure he's in a coma because of venom, but. Character venom, not the movie. But yeah, it it was this it was. Yeah, there was. There was a lot of that going on. Yeah. So I think one thing is we often talk about box office in terms of a showdown, which is funny to me because very few people, I think thought other than people who are so into a star is born thought there was a chance of this kind of big unashamed. Romantic muse music movie would beat a comic book movie that just doesn't stand as it turns out from the actual box. Office results seem like everybody's happy right. They both made a lot of money, so the the showdown is only in our imaginations. I would add by the way the there too. As we talk about movies like this. Now we talk about box office and we talk about Oscar's, especially Gabby like a stars more. It all becomes, is this a movie that's going to get a lot of Oscar nominations, right? So we're already advancing. And I think part of this is I of found this so strange about movies because as somebody who is not really into that world so much, I'm. Always like, really the thing I care about is is the movie. Good. And should I see the movie? Yeah. Advancing past that space on the monopoly board is pretty hard for me at that point. Of course, I wanna read profiles and things like that, but just like we're, we're just so meta that we're so far ahead of the actual connection between human and movie. This is what I'm always yelling on. Twitter's, like you know, sporting event and ratings, right? It's the same thing like was the Sunday night football game, any good. Maybe we should do that before we get to. What was the rating of the Sunday night football game? Yeah, I think that's true. I mean, I think there is an interesting form of meta writing about about movies and you know our Bosh on finished, he doesn't. Oh, really? Well, I'm not just saying that because he's almost certainly listening to this in could fire me, but I believe it to be true, but but there is an interesting angle which is like, what does this mean? Like where movies going because of what just happened. But that's not an instant react idea. You know, there are bigger ideas that can be gleaned. From this. I just bit. It's clearly not the only way to look at how you come out of a weekend, right? I mean, there's a certain, but it's almost like watching to come. The Monday thing right is it's the only way to do it. It's like watching. It's like watching stock market analysis when all you want to know is how the economy's doing and you're just not getting any knowledge out of it. You know. Your skew find yourself looking for the point a whole lot. I mean, another one of the ways it's bins for not just Oscar. I'm reading one of these pieces. I don't know if it was the Hollywood reporter or a different one. I think it was HR that were were sudden we're already going to is a star is born going to be going to trend like the greatest showman did last year. And so how projecting out with future weeks might look like? I don't know. It looks like we're like, there's like everybody has all of these small pieces of data, right? And we awaiting on their in their Google doc for when these movies come out, you can immediately. No, you can compare it to. You can get. You can compare it to other opening weekends in months and years past, you can project to Oscar nominations and everything else, but there's not any real significance until the Oscar nominations come out until the year in movies is settled and even then it doesn't really. Yeah, that's a even though that's highly questionable significance because then you're and then then you're just arguing about what did they convince people. In Hollywood to name as the Oscar finalists exact. If I liked the movie, what does that have anything to do with me? I mean, you know, just begin prime level not seen those that other stuff isn't a story. But again, advanced past just the the fundamental question of should I go see movie or should not go see movie right. That is all just projecting way down the road. I'd say for another piece of random data. This is always one of my favorites is from New York Times for all movies and releases last week in ticket sales at North American theaters total roughly one hundred seventy four point, five million. The previous hallmark water high marks gives me for an October weekend was twenty fifteen with Marshall, blah, blah, blah hundred sixty three million. What does that mean? What does that mean? This was the highest grossing October weekend of all time. Just think about what a tight that sound so significant, which is about what a tiny data point that is, what is September was terrible. We'll at the movies. What have November will be terrible. What if the last week of October will be such a giant fall off of Mount Everest that it will make up for this will never really. No, any of that stuff or very few people will put all those random numbers together and it's it's just like my old bugaboo TV ratings. It all sounds really significant. But when you step back and look at it, you don't really understand what that means. Yeah, you don't understand like even if even if we take hundred seventy four million dollars the box office this weekend to be significant. Tell me what that has to do with Sony's bottom line going for it. Tell me what that has to do with Twentieth Century Fox and Disney. Tell me then how will that affect movie franchises at those places that I actually care about? That's all nine or ten steps down the road, and no one and very few of own say, no one, very few people will actually follow them or capable of following them because then the data gets pretty opaque. So I just I always find the so funny and it's like, okay, that's great. I was just saying that, yeah, I mean, if if they don't. Yeah, I, if if until Disney decides to release the next Star Wars movie in October because of this, you know, I mean, I don't really know what the significance if anything is. Yeah, the can I ask you if you questions about venom, please as the non comic book person here, this is a line for your piece. I like Brock who was sort of the anti Peter Parker, who has wit tell me remind me a Brock's first name again eighty Brock. Yeah, Eddie Brock. He was a serious journalist whose career was ruined when he ran an exclusive interview with a super villain called the sin eater, except it wasn't actually the Senator. So he got so centrally, it's like a was like a Stephen class thing. Oh, no, no, he had. He was fooled. He had a, he had a, he had a source who claimed to be the Senator at turned out to be one of these guys who like serially admits the crimes that he didn't commit and then his this is it's so bizarrely it's just unnecessarily twisted, or you know, complicated then win. Spiderman actually stopped and captured the sin eater as superheroes or want to do. It was r- it was revealed that this exclusive was was incorrect because the guy under the hood, you know, in Scooby doo terms was not. Actually the person who was interviewed for the piece and that ended Eddie Brock's career, which led him to a pathological lifelong hatred of spider man and subsequently to become his greatest villain. That's it was. It was at I, I'm just fascinated by this bottom. It was a journalism story, lay. It was it was about ban you stepped in and save the world. But as a as a consequence, it revealed that my exclusive was was a put on yet. It's been portrayed after that. And I think it's legitimately portrayed as sort of like he felt. I think part of it was that he felt terrible for having to write these schlocky pieces just to keep up with the Spiderman world. Gotcha. But yeah, at the end it was about it was about ethics in superhero journal. Did do you remember how this did like Eddie Brock pick up the phone and there was like a deep voice. That's this is Senator. Somebody else was at like the Trump John barren thing or what? No, yeah, that would be really great if it was someone deliberately trying to take him down. Unfortunately, it was. It was just sort of a throwaway. It was. It was not, you know, I mean, this is this is a very particular era of comic book said it's a little bit. You know, the venom stuff that's out now is is, is in my opinion, I think in most people's opinion much better than back then it was. There was a very sort of mechanical aspect complicating back in those days not to impugn the writers. It was just the way things were done. I got to say personally, I so I went and saw a SARS born on Saturday night, love the movie. I gotta say personally, when you talk about our Cup, general coverage of it, I'm not sure if I would have known this movie was even going to be a thing until a couple of weeks before when we start seeing the profiles of Bradley, Cooper, lady Gaga, stuff like that, and you know the kind of conventional press. It wasn't it if it wouldn't have been for the ringers. Early soon NAMI warning system that this was just gonna be like a thing. I, I don't know that I would've known about, but I'm, but, but as you say, it was its stars Moore's interesting because it's this particular cut of medium. Right? And we are a tiny part of it, but there there is the sort of lady Gaga part of medium. There's a sort of kind of musical romantic kind of uring for kinds of movies that don't often get made part of medium to write that this cuts across one else. What am I? What am I leaving out of that calculus? Yeah. I mean, I don't know what you're leaving out, but I do think it's a very, there's a very interesting question of like, I remember when the first trailer came out. Actually, I don't. I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm gonna confuse trailers here when I say for sure. But the first trailer definitely had the win the the window of the SUV rolling down with Bradley Cooper saying, I just wanted to get one more look at you and lady Gaga giving the weird smile. It might have been the second trailer that had the him touching his no, in him him running his finger down her nose in that creepy way. There's a part. I mean, I think a real. The question is how much of that stuff is in earnest and how much of it is is deliberately calculated to create this that sort of, I can't believe this is happening Meema fixation, and I don't think those things are necessarily mutually exclusive. I think sometimes a thing will will happen and you know, the viral marketing or the marketing person will just kind of sit there and smile behind his or her hand without letting anybody know that that they know what's about to happen, but but it is. I mean, they're they did. They did manage to strike exactly the right tone and the production of this movie which was this is going to be a great great film that even the people who are not inclined to see great films are going to see because their friends won't stop talking about it, you know, and I it, I mean, regardless of the degree to which was a masterpiece. And by the way I didn't see it. I did see venom this weekend. I saw NewSouth anymore. You. It well eat. I saw I saw venom with a with a ten year old a fourteen year old and a sixteen year old. This week, we all we all walked out incredibly excited by it. I thought it was actually a really was. It wasn't even a good bad movie. I thought it was a good movie like it was. It was silly and, and you know, it's kind of screeching at times, but it was. It was pretty good. And and but I think I think that the star is born as no matter to what degree it succeeds has managed to pull off this sort of this weird sort of kind of to track success in a way already it in a really impressive way. I mean, it's already a great success in marketing and publicity terms. And I think I think in some ways, venom is even harder to put your finger on because it didn't feel like if felt like a big movie in the sense that it was definitely a big movie leading up to this weekend, but it didn't feel necessary in the sense that a lot of comic book movies have up to this point and it certainly was. Comic book movies. Yeah, I know continue, but it what? And it and it wasn't wasn't necessary in the sense that there is now this weird delineation between Spiderman movies and the rest of the Spiderman world that that Sony Pictures has ownership of in for movies. Spiderman wasn't in this venom movie hope. That's not a spoiler for anybody just by an and to to kind of position it as separate from Spiderman despite the fact that he looks exactly like Spiderman is sort of interesting, but all of that all that is to say it did have that sort of viral. You know, immediate, immediate sort of second wave success that you know dead pool and some of these other Logan. Some of these other like offbeat superhero movies surprises have where you know people are really, again, going back to the horse race. The business aspect were really surprised by the Saturday night totals that Friday night Lee, a pretty Good Friday night begets an amazing Saturday night. And you know, I guess I'm just this. Is the snake eating its own tail or whatever here, but I. But I, that is sort of intriguing the way that it that it they both want. Everybody's happy. Absolutely, right. I just it's just it fascinates me that the news, the kind of moments in the news cycle, there's the trailer moment which was big for both of these movies as you say in kind of a stabbing them in the public mind, venom probably made people think it was a better movie than it actually turned out to be at least to go by the thirty one percent rotten tomatoes score. David shoemakers opinions aside. The positioning of a star is born as you say, hit that night. Also add the note of even if you exist in a state of high, I Ronnie in your daily life. You will give yourself over to this movie because it's just you just have to write that was definitely established the mean stuff as you say. But then we hit these other notes in the movie news cycle, which is the opening of the move, the kind of murmurs of whether the movie is going to be any good by people who saw it really early, especially in the trades, you know, the can of you had a week out. Then the first wave of reviews, then the Friday night bucks off. It's the Saturday night box office the Sunday night in the kind of declared of Sunday night box office. The Oscar stuff is in there in all of it, to me comes from this idea that we wanna write so much about the stuff. There's such a, there's this giant mouth open that you just wanna feed content and to. But there's nothing really to say, so you have to just have like a big trailer moment, right? We're gonna you know, everybody's going to write about the trailer where you know in this kind of vulture kind of way, then we're going to have this big moment. Then this big because there's really just not that much to say about moves. You haven't seen right exhaust. You wind up going when I say, go all these steps down the road. You wind up projecting all these steps down the road because that's what there is to say at that moment in time. And I, I see this happen sports it without with media is would have all these things where it's like there is more there's sort of more content opportunities than his actual content. So again, it's just like all of us are trying to project forward. How do we hit these all these, you know, and feel. All these boxes, right? Yeah. I mean, have these giant Bradley Cooper profiles which you know we can talk about or not, but there's, you know, the big New York Times profiles, everything else that that are all based around. I mean, it's really hard to conceptualize a piece like that without knowing how the movies going to do. Right. And at the same time you're functioning as a part of the marketing arm of the movie. I don't mean that any disrespect along with that, but you know the the interesting thing, the interesting I mean doesn't appear that Brad Cooper is particularly interested in in putting himself out there, but so you know the the the the interesting time now asking questions would be like, you know, after the Oscar or after we see how people are responding to the movie. But yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a an and that's just, you know, that's getting access to Brad Cooper. You're talking about, you're talking about access, but then you have all the every other website in the world is like, well, we gotta have five stars worn pieces of this week to, you know, and we don't have. Access. So what do we do Depp exactly what's been a few minutes where we go talking about Jamal kashogi because I think this is a story that we may not have much to add to opinion wise but can do our part in amplifying because it so haunting and strange Jamal. Kashogi was a former advisor to the Saudi Royal family was fairly unique within a a bunch of the Saudi intelligence and commentary and that he was not celebrating Donald Trump's twenty sixteen election as good news for his home country corden the Washington Post. He was ordered by Saudi authorities after he expressed his opinion on that to stop writing and speaking publicly kashogi winds up leaving the Middle East and sort of becoming a full-fledged journalists and pundits he wrote Washington Post columns with headlines like Saudi Arabia wasn't always this repressive. Now it's unbearable. Another one was called Saudi Arabia's, creating a total mess. And Lebanon, he criticized crown prince Mohammad bin Salman for dispensing what he called quote, unquote, selective Justice. Last Tuesday kashogi walked into these saw. Consulate in in in Istanbul. Excuse me and disappeared. According to Reuters to Turkish sources, believe kashogi was deliberately killed inside the consulate of you. ECU echoed by Turkish president Erdogan's advisers. Another Turkish purity source told Reuters that a group of fifteen Saudi nationals claims of officials had arrived in Istanbul in two planes and entered the consulate. The same day kashogi was there and later left the country. Let's listen a bit. This is Karen Adia who was kashogi is editor at the Washington Post's where he wrote columns. This is her Zadie talking to CNN Jim. He didn't want to be known as dissident. He didn't want to be this opposition figure when he wrote his first piece for us in twenty seventeen in September. He said, this changed my life. I just want to be a journalist, I just want to, right. So David, I think moving from the journalistic games we play with movies and sports and media and all this stuff to something much, much bigger and much much more serious. I was just struck by this the store. What what did you make the whole thing. It's it's heartbreaking. I mean, confounding. I don't. I don't know exactly. We're where we go from here. But and also just the. It's sort of, I mean it from from just a whatever media podcast perspective reading about learning about it. It's all I mean, it you have to kind of engage with the facts in a different way because you see all these outlets like actually trying to balance like potential disinformation against, you know, other information, but regardless of the outcome. And I think we kind of know where this is where this is going. Unfortunately, yeah, I mean it. It feels like that. I mean, this is a, you know, at its base a not at its base. This is this is a tragic journalism story is where as well as you know, a tragic story of you know humanity. I mean, it's really interesting. He was something this going from Liz slice profile in the Washington Post which ran Monday. But you know, he was actually a guy who traveled with Somma bin Laden and wrote one of the early profiles about him in nineteen back in nineteen eighty eight. When he sort of left decided to leave Saudi Arabia and become a journalist, it was really a enormous moment in his life because his wife went up divorcing him infect. Part of the reason he was at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul was the fact that he wanted to get papers that he could remarry. He was enormously influential guy, I think probably not terribly well known. You know, among broad swath of American readers is fair to say, but among the international community really well known to one hundred one point, seven million Twitter followers of the column in the Washington Post Robin Wright who wrote a really nice piece in the New Yorker about him, talked about how he was enormously regular presence on international television. I'm I think the the one sort of point may what we're going to do here is now go over a lot of the glowing coverage of crown prince Mahama's on right, who is who was and is I think in a lot of ways somebody who's chain. That society for the better. But then I think we'll look at a lot of it as cheerleading, right? Here's here's right writing in the New Yorker kashogi disappearance as part of a broader trend since June of last year for NBS he's called has pledged sweeping reforms which is rule has been increasingly ruthless with mass arrests of businessmen. Even other prince's death sentences meted out this year to a women's rights activists and also to moderate clerics who preached against extremism. So I think the great sort of thing in again, he, this is something that could Shoghi wrote about, you know, he, he was not as that clip said a dissident, he did not oppose the monarchy, but he did speak out against a lot of these reforms and that certainly seems to somehow be tied up in what happened to him, whatever that is. Yeah. I mean, this is one of the weird. I mean, one of the actually bizarre places where my two podcasts sort of they were the stream sort of cross. 'cause WWE the world wrestling federation world wrestling entertainment is about to have their second show in Saudi Arabia, which is part of this sort of, you know, roll out of of the no exciting crossover into the cultural mainstream that the crown prince's is spearheading wrote while at the same time, just having this incredible. This just just mind boggling. Crackdown of both. You know, political competition and and internal, you know, outspoken voices. I mean, dissidents is almost legitimising is I am partially legitimising any action he would take or whatever. But you know, I mean, there's there. This is this is not an isolated incident of of what's going on right now. I mean, there's, there's. The death penalty against a female human rights activists, which would be like a just a huge. I mean, there's a lot of norms of been broken. That's one example even in a not entirely, you know, modernized country. It seems like there's a lot of regression and not and repressions that's that's bubbling up and it's it takes voices. To. I mean, it takes the these sorts of like, you know, outspoken or just honest voice in journalism to to to bring that to the public consciousness. Yeah. He's told Benny assessing city fear for his life at various times. I think right thought she's broke today that she thought, you know, he was maybe being a little too serious about that, but that is obviously something that perhaps now was not was not an an idol fear. All right now, I mean it's feet and his fiancee. I'm just last things waited outside for eleven or twelve hours or something after he went in. I think that's all you. I mean in some ways that's that's some emblem emblematic of how sad and tragic the story is, but it's also that's all you need to know about the legitimacy of this fear. Right? I mean that you would do that if I feel like in any effing mitt, most other people in that situation after after an hour after forty, five minutes would assume that there had just been some like crazy miscommunication and the cell phone battery had gone dead or something. You know, I mean, the fact that. That she would be kind of almost standing vigil. There shows the the degree to which this was a a real fear that he had and clearly a very tragic legitimate one. All right. That's the press box for this week. We'll follow next week on that. Our producers, Jim Cunningham research by Chris Mehta, David shoemaker, see you back here next week for more. Talk about the media. All right, man. David, which is incredibly fake name. Yeah. And now we are all crying, tears of amazement, please pray for my eldest. He is still in a coma. Comb which led him to a pathological lifelong hatred of Spiderman and subsequently to become his greatest villain. Not just saying that. 'cause he's almost certainly listening to this could fire me, but I believe to be true, but that would be the real experience of journalists, right? Wow, this is not about me. We've all been there. Hello. I'd like to report a lady guttural army. Yes. Please. Please says l. extre back.
The Siakam Game, Warriors Overreactions, a Post-'Thrones' Life, and AEW Battles WWE With Joe House, Mallory Rubin, and David Shoemaker | The Bill Simmons Podcast
"Tonight's episode of the Bill Simmons podcast. Podcast network is brought to you by design on guess what you could do under design, watch boxing live, boxing. Oh, I have an example for Anthony. Joshua is coming to the US this weekend Saturday night to take on the destroyer indie. Ru is junior at Madison Square Garden in New York City, Joshua, arguably the best heavyweight fighter in the world Heald's three of the major heavyweight titles. Can you name the three titles, cow heavyweight? IB half WBO. And I be oh, of course. Yeah. Ruiz thirty two wins twenty one knockouts so that's happening. Here's how you can watch it. Good a dot com and yeah, go, there do the app sign up the got a couple of options get in there. And you get to watch a heavyweight championship fight. Also brought to you by BMW the all new BMW three series. Don't be driven by technology drive, it available all the latest BMW innovations what you love about this vehicle cannot be listed, or explained in words, it has to be felt on the road much like watching co letter during these finals Igwe not to be you can enjoy it. But in person, the athleticism and the know how really stands out her into your local BMW center today, test drive the all new BMW three series for yourself. Don't be driven by technology drive. It BMW the Alta. Mm it driving machine, and my personal favorite car were also brought to you by the ringer dot com and the ringer podcast network, where you can find a slew of awesome pieces features and podcast coming up we have Joe house, and I are going to break down game, one of the NBA finals, which just happened. And then we have Malley Ruben talking about with a little distance game of thrones. What the series man, are we going to have another prestige TV show by that? We're the people right around to be so upset about some of the events of season, seven season, eight and then also with the future bench modus so yeah, you can hear that as well as coming up after that David shoemaker the great one. We're talk wrestling, because we had a siesmic moment in the wrestling wrestling animals this past week. The business feels like it's changing. There's been a new entrance a e w is in and we were both like blown away by how good of. The job. They've done this month. We're gonna talk about what it means. A WWE that is all coming up. I. Our friends from Pearl Jam. All right. We're taping this little bit before midnight on the east coast. Little bit for that. West coast game what NBA finals in the books. Joe house a longtime aficionado of the NBA finals. He's online. You just watch. I think will remember it as the game will we remember this as the CRM series, which you take away. I don't think we're going to remember this is this the series. But you know he had a great game one again Philadelphia. And you know, this is the thing with this Toronto team. They have established identity of kind of taking turn among of their kind of role players definitely up and having big games. So he had quite theories against Milwaukee didn't shoot great, but they had other guys filled in and able to, you know, they were the difference in that theory, they won four straight games because of their role players. Yeah. And this interational of Toronto is tough to be when you get, you know, when you you, you expect twenty four points or more out of my man kuwa-, but you get double digits out of Danny green, who's been dead. All series double digits outta vent. We you get twenty points out of all, you know, tough that doesn't. That's a tough recipe for anybody. Well, and then you had how many pull it at ears. Think they're threes and weird chats Toronto. Make every time it seemed like gold. Stay was going to get over the hump. My dad. My dad was caused these the hump games. Golden state. Just couldn't get over the hump. It'd be like they'd be down three. That'd be down to down four felt like that. And then all of a sudden something weird would happen. The worst one was probably McCaw. I don't even know why he was out there. I was shocked to see him. And then he made like a dagger three. And I think it was the only three he made the whole game. But that one really hurt. Yeah. That was the only three mid game. And then that one the game was probably decided at that point, but the, the vanfleet shot at the end, the circus, double pump off the bat when that stuff starts going in, you know, Cy United, this is one of those nights were. It was all going in for Toronto. And I gotta say, I was surprised because I thought I wanted to this thinking you know, they're guys are a little those roll guys are little hit or miss at thought the pressure, the finals just just had different. It is having gone to the finals where you have those, you know, two hours for the game you warming up. There's two hundred people on the court and it's just different it feels different. There's a different energy to it. I thought it would affect them, and it was the opposite. I actually thought that, that that was the best. I've seen them play in a couple of weeks. What was interesting quite wasn't good. And he got to the free throw line. But didn't it look like he was kind of playing one legged half the affect game. Oli agree with that. He didn't look like he was playing one leg. We got. I was watching the big group of guys. And there was, you know, a lot of questions about what you know how hurt is he? Yeah. How heard is coy? Well he's still played forty three minutes. Getting to the line twelve times, they were getting more calls than the wars felt like. But I thought the words may detectable mistake, they really sold out to stop choir early, and, you know, they're, they're trapping upset in two guys, and they were kind of leaving Siaka him unaccounted, for which was the opposite of what would the bugs really did? I thought I soon they would go into this game and try to take out the role guys and make sure that the role guys didn't beat them and of qui- was gonna shoot thirty times, you know, kind of play that play the math on that because he's been doing that now for two straight rounds. And at some point it felt like he was going to wear down from that he looked worn down tonight. I thought they made a mistake selling out the way they did in the first half that try to shut him down. All I would I would have been much more worried about Siaka Danny green getting going, denigrating missed his first couple, but CIO comes the guy you just don't eat. He was really good this season and was in a funk last. Series. And now I'd be very concerned if owes a worse fan witty thing. Well, that's the reason for the concern is Lowry. Didn't have a great game shooting wise shot to nine from the field, and he ended up almost falling out, but he was was a plus eleven. He led the team. He inqui- had the best plus minus along with band lead to Cup good. Yeah. And he had, you know, nine this, so he played a pretty control game even though he didn't shoot. Well. It will be his turn to have a good game at home. This is the this is the risk. This is why you can't f- around in the regular season. I just wonder how this, this theories would line up if Golden State was starting off the series with two home game. It's a very best in area with Toronto starting off with with two straight home games with, with the momentum carrying over from all of the good feelings, and really what I think is like an identity for them that they developed by kicking Milwaukee that fourth straight game. Ray Moore straight games. They, they found themselves and they were able to just come right back home. And, and you know, find that that comfortable place. They were in whenever kicking Milwaukee's acid, and everybody stepped up. Yeah, but see we've seen the foot side of this to the. Oh six Mavericks. They kind of found themselves during that Spurs in the western in the western finals and then they win the first two games against Miami. And then they blow game three in it flips. You know. So I it the find yourself with. Yeah, it can it can flip back? I I'm with you, though. I really the more when I was watching the game today. I just assume that some of the Toronto guys with the stage will be a little big for them. But they've really did get some good big game reps. Those last two games. And they've also had guys like assaults Ben in a million international games and stuff like that he's been in a conference finals Hawaiian Danny green of obviously done a bunch of stuff. Larry's Bennett's big LeBron games as they haven't been begins. But I think those last two rounds you're right. There was a nice seasoning. And then the other thing, which we oh is this count? Let's file this away for next year. They the, the massive amounts of rest for the words where, you know, they Nassar's we're talking about it that first half about how words Steve Kerr was about just getting the rhythm how it's impossible ripka practice they looked way off in that first half at that. They looked a little better in the second half. But I didn't really feel like defensively. They started to look like the warriors until the last six minutes of the game. I thought they had some. Good defensive sequences down the stretch. I guess the X factor those Iggy looked like he got hurt again at the very end. Yeah he got hurt. You heard on a layup. And then on the next play which was really their last Gas cO shoved him out of bounds on an offense. Rebound guy it. No, call Steve Kerr Bacher Steve Kerr crazy. The nets are missed it completely. And they showed no replay. They're just like we're good. We're gonna move out for this one. It's nice. It's nice for ABC that Toronto's gonna win this. We're good. We're happy. But I I it just felt like one of those games and felt that way early on. It felt like the kinda game that Pasco Ceac was gonna go fourteen for seventeen the line was really, really kinda fascinating. I ended up getting sucked into taking the worriers. They were even money line. They were plus one and a half, but they were like, minus two seventy five to win the series which doesn't make a lot of sense because now they. Got to basically win for the next six. Wait, did you understand that? Sometimes I just don't understand gambling ones. I have no idea. What was going on there? I I just doomed. It was moving around a good bit over the course of today. Look like it ended up with Toronto, minus one fifteen money line. But all throughout the day, it was the warriors getting one. It was even they were. They were favored the day before it just looked like you know, people were pushing money in. And, and it was never really moved a ton. I bet on the first half I bet on Golden State, even to, to win the first half that theory, you outlined of some of the Toronto guys showing up in feeling final tightness and yeah, it was just that was the idea of it. But I, I was prepared to lose. They, they weren't tight. They came out poise. They came out with the exact same, you know, game six mentality against the bucks. And they just went kick that it did. I'd heard this mentioned before this is that there was a little bit of two thousand four piston similarities kinda the team out of nowhere that finds itself as the playoffs go along. And then really turns it on in the finals against a team that is a little overrated. People had really including myself had really shook off the Durant injury as they can win without him. Because they basically they wanna game six against Houston against a team that has become the find out in the subsequent weeks was not getting along. It doesn't seem like and they weren't getting along during in at halftime. And after that game. So, yeah. That the new, then they sweep Portland where Lillard was definitely wearing down and had broke had the broken rib, or whatever adding engaged to push Kanter was just broke down as that series one along, they kinda caught that Portland team at the perfect time. Maybe you and I and south since with us the three of us since all of us waged on the warriors, maybe we overrated those five wins by the words, but he think. I don't know a game one like this in in Toronto. I it this is a classic kind of, like feel them out, and you have a bunch of colliding narrative here, south center around that amongst us about how great Golden State is on rest yet. On the other hand historically teams with that amount arrest had done. Great south also share with us. Instead of good going state has been in game one yet. Oh. That. Oh, this is a this the Golden State on the road and for for game one. And we just it's a the confounding thing about Toronto is. Are you going to get that performance from those role players in a way that that can that can swing the game? To game to the Mike at twenty from Lowry's, something like that, that's, that's what that part reminds me of the four pistons, the, the fact that they're just I thought they were for the most part really good defensively in that game. They had a couple breakdowns, but they really made the words word for Schatz that thing that reminded me of that old four finals more than anything was just a lot of dudes on the warriors side, that you're like. Oh, wow. That guy. Ooh. Ooh. He's taking a big shot writer like Quinn cook, took a really big three at one point. And I think it was to cut a lead from maybe was like six to three something like that in the fourth quarter missed it and then the raptors came down, and they made a shine. It was like a five point sewing, or six point swing. But there was a couple moments where direct co made, I think one in many mid two cousins took one Livingston in though, in the lane like it kept kind of reminding yourself like oh, yeah. They're missing Durant. They're missing that one extra guy that you, you'd really need here. And it really was a lot of a lot of claim curry like every play running through them. And you know, I this broke perfectly for K D, right? 'cause they could now we don't have to hear that narrative anymore, and actually they need Katie. Now he can hop on his white horse and ride to the rescue. Well the thing that was missing from this game was the patented Golden State run. Yeah. They never. They never got going, they never ripped off, you know, nine or eleven straight, they couldn't get stop. They couldn't get consecutive stop against Toronto. They could get like one stop. They gotta turn over here and there and a bunch of times, they pushed it they closed like an eleven point lead the seven, but never got it like down to three and never made Toronto. Seriously, you know, concern there was two instances and I don't remember win, but both in the second half where Kawai made shot. He just took shot. He made at one three overland in looney. Right in the space. Yeah. That's what I mean. It was one of those games where? What are they're like, twelve shots in a game that could kind of start swinging it one way or the other and felt like all those winning for the raptors negative. There was one near the end that didn't where Danny green green resume Fishawy starting to heat up. And he had a really nice catch and shoot from the Ray corner and hit both parts of the room and went out. But you know if if I'm raptors fan, you knew Siachen was good. Right, e-, whether he whether the stage was a little big for last round who knows. Maybe was the way the bucks plenum, but you figured like from an athletic point, he was gonna come around the part that the one part, we just didn't know with them was, whether green was lost for the playoffs, you know, 'cause he, he was really he it was beyond a slump and incredibly. Yeah. Yes. So you need them. Right. So now that now they have him back. I thought Casale was great tonight, especially in the first I thought the stuff he was doing defensively jumping out thirty feet from the basket. They were just bound in determine nevertheless curry, shoot an open twenty foot or is really funny. It's funny to watch. They were they were totally happy with him having the floaters, dry drive to the basket all you want. We are not giving you open anything, so the times that he got the shots. It was an accident. But Casale was a big part of that. I thought his defense was really, really good. And that's somebody who's been a lot of big games. I, I didn't love that trade, but it is nice to have Markelle Sala in a final game versus found Hsun, as you know, I just feel the veteran thing is that it's really this is where matters right now. And, and again, Golden State who? Has a size deficiency. Yes. Inside outside ability is, is nice like advantage. They can create a nice mismatch. They can create. Well, why don't you listen? Seven rebound from him. Would he do? Oh, so the Quin cook play ten minutes, left ninety two eighty seven. He missed a wide open three. Larry rebound goes to Ceac him Ceac him makes a makes it too and suddenly at seven again, but there were moments like that strewn throughout the game when it just felt like something good was going to happen. And, and then it didn't happen. I would've. My big notes for the words where I just I don't think I wouldn't wouldn't play cousins. Yeah. I agree with that. I don't think dot how much time he was playing in the fourth quarter. It was weird. He doesn't. He's not at the speed of the way the speed and intensity of these last couple rounds. I just don't think he has in them if he hasn't been playing and. He could move. He defensive rotations. He was out of position concomitantly and there was a couple of plays offense of where he was just in the wrong spots. I, I would play loony way more than he played looney only played. Play twenty eight. Yeah. He was a lot of that came in the in the last like twenty minutes of the game though, 'cause I remember looking earlier, and he hadn't played nearly as many minutes as he'd even start, but Jordan bell played twelve my I might rethink that one. I would start looney. We'll see though if Iggy hurt. They don't have a lot of options. You might see more smears Larry how Swedish Larry might really get legit run here. I'm ready for your stat. He had eight minutes tonight. Room. I stat getting been worked out tonight. Oh, that was another. That was another ridiculous. Raptors play tonight when he plays Swedish Larry played perfect defense on blame fleet. In vanfleet did that double pomp whip off the backboard layup? That went in remember that they were there was a bunch of this. So this broke perfectly for Durant. And now. Pro, you could probably get away to waiting until next Wednesday. If he can play is still don't know if we see him in this series by guy, really think there's a chance that ship is already sailed and they're just not telling us but, you know, you probably you don't play him Sunday. You know, you're gonna get incredible refs on Sunday. Right. The one thing we know for sure is they will get really good officiating on Sunday on the words Baff there'd be no more shoving Goodell into the camera crew. No cost would they'll be getting those caused. But if they can somehow split and take that back to gold state for, for the Wednesday game a little bit. Little bit more appealing we have serious house. What do we do? Do we get this worse? But what do we do? I don't know. I. Lightly concerned on my warriors bet. Right now, would you would you think a south tax because that got my head to Sal is, basically, like this is the two thousand seventeen eagles all over again. This is his Astor that was like shit would if it is what if this is just thousand seventeen eagles again? That was just one game with a bunch of stuff like you know that the. This next game is going to be, telling interesting but also remember, Milwaukee won their first two games at home and gone. I mean, the, the rasping often won four straight. So we have to be patient with this is my this is my gut instinct. We just need to be patient that the warriors had all the rest, they shot forty four percent. If you're looking for, pluses, you were worried I was worried about their ability to rebound. They outrebounded the rafters but the rafters shot over fifty percent of almost fifty one percent. Yeah. Also shot nearly forty percent for three turnovers really hurt. They, you know, the words of famously sloppy team sometimes tonight they're sloppy sixteen turnovers and, and it felt like the raptors were gunning for them. They're very Hansie. Angie, late point Hansie, raptors team trying to take charges putting dune lot of inappropriate touching and just kind of all over the place trying to make things happen and the word. But late night, this is my late night strategy with my wife. I do think that in that respect, especially that's where the warriors rough, like them, not having gained be kind of reps. Yeah. They tried a lot of pocket passes in the lane and stuff, a lot of that, that where they have cutters coming from the weak side and the rafters got their hands on those balls. Over and over and over again. Are you ready for the possibility of we talk about the two thousand nine co Iran, like we talk about two thousand eleven Dirk. And so. To Iran, the two thousand eighteen co Iran, like, like, ten years from now they are two thousand eighteen Hawaii. That was great two thousand eleven Dirk oath three Dunkin member that, like, there's just these one man wrecking crew runs where somebody just takes four straight rounds. It's important, you mentioned it earlier. We need to find out really how hurt quiet because Bogue statement at tactical mistake in overplaying. Why in the first half and take him away? He was perfectly content is just swing the ball. And he didn't. He didn't care about being double teamed. He wasn't looking for a shot at didn't seem like he reminds me of myself before I retired for pickup basketball. He doesn't have a full running them, but he can pick spots. That's where I was at the tail end house y-. You kind kinda know you have a good half hour noon, it seems like. Cool, cool. I those good half hours was like third quarter. Turn on the jets come, but they should throw in the first quarter with them. Also. Like, if he shoot three minutes shoots thirty five times. Great. He's putting on an incredible, you know, physical and mental toll to just carry the offense like that. I I'm so much worried about the other guys, I don't want any of the other guys to get going Kawai Figo's sixteen for thirty whatever. But I the Siaka m- fourteen for seventeen and beating them in transition. He did that what five times tonight, outsprinted them down the court. That's that can't happen. Don't let those guys get going. And they got a whole bunch of opportunities from the warriors missing shots and turn the ball over. That's what shooting rounder forty four percent and turning the ball over sixteen times. That's what, what gets the guy likes the gone guy around the basket a bunch of time. You know, we've gotta feel those layups I mean both team shadow over thirty free throws which I never never huge fan of. But did you feel patriotic at all they're in this game? It's an important question cryonic. Yeah. What do you mean? I don't want the NBA. I don't want the Lawrence O Brancheau fee to go to Canada. We might never see again. I don't trust people did about we have to go through customs to get in their country. Now they're gonna have the Lawrence O Brancheau fee though. It's called I want them to have. Larry o'brien. Yeah. I, we gotta protect our home turf house. Country at stake. I think that's a dumb point. This is us him. Him talking about. I don't want. I don't want to go to another country. We have saved a thing, I like to be international MBA now, I, I, I was joking. Obviously, isn't it? Isn't it funny, though, that there's no patriotism all the series like if this was the? It's US for Canada. Not really US versus Canada. Who why not? Because the rafters have been in the NBA for however, many years, now, listen. All their fans were Canadian. They're from another country and we got to protect our turf house. This is ours. Czar charlie. I think you're trying to do something here. I just pick a bit. Yeah. Think you're too late, too late back on these. My bit. I got Russians sort of thing. Right. Well, what about, you know, like rocky four? That's what I'm thinking, you know. Apollo creed coming out to James Brown living in America. No, nothing. Going to do that in Oakland. Come in, you know, living in America, maybe the worst thing to think about us the Americans. Maybe they got it. Maybe there's more at stake than just defending championship. It's about the fending the flag house. I this whole Toronto thing, though, with the with the people outside and all that stuff. I'm trying to think as Brennan American equivalent to this. Not in basketball, have we had this bene- peeping now. It the thing all the teams have gotten smart, it's been going on, like three or four years, like it was forty five thousand people outside during the Stanley Cup in Washington last summer. Washington games out in the street. You saw Milwaukee now to to the credit of the rafters. They've been doing this drastic part thing for feels like ten years as long as they've been good, at least like the last five or six years, and it seems like they have a great outdoor plaza for it. I think it's a great phenomena seems like he's just moved there. Why don't you leave this country? We don't eat way, watch you go with your friends in Canada. Toronto be great any child. Great food diary. I'm hungry. You know there's a MoMA Fukuda in Toronto. It is the moment. Yeah. Okay, there's a moment. Fokker Momofuku Toronto reason to love Toronto. Speaking, a mama Fuca talking to Chang tonight, we're texting and there's, you know, we might go to summer league again and in Vegas, and we're talking about, you know, whether we want do nother live show with the theme would be, and I was thinking about Chang David show on Yang. Get like, basically the all Asian podcast live show and call it sin sanity. What do you think since sanity, two thousand nineteen sin sanity because it's incense city city insanity insanity. And they just got they just do their thing. They talk about. Of the things that they talk about. When we go to our dinners. I'm not AirAsia at the dinner, but it's just that it's a live show hour and a half since two thousand eighteen now. I mean I would pay for that. I think it'd be food. I think there would be food actually. Okay. Then I definitely absolutely buffoon hanging by themselves. That's a show an hour long show. I mean, no offense Alex, are you bring the whole nother wrinkle, the right and show, China have established legendary report? Chou Chou with alive. Mike is probably not legal. Not definitely sure that, that can actually happen in this country might happen in your favorite country, Canada. But I don't know if it happened America. Do you could you, you just warned everybody? You say offensive things are going to be said. Yeah. Might be like the disclaimer jackass before that whole thing about don't try the stunts. You'd have to say something like that before him. But anyway, Louis C K still do an act, right? Jesus. That's funny. Yeah. Show is not going to be worse than I thought. Cincinnati. Get your tickets now. Louis. C K be part of this. For work. The rigors that inquiry is available though. He's ready. Gotta get him to. He's, he's definitely in this guy. I'm I'm gonna work on this. I'm gonna workshop this more. I think since sanity something there. All right house. Anything else we got US open coming up. How many weeks? Let's two weeks. Wait a minute. They thursday. It's exactly two weeks from today. They will be teeing off at Pebble Beach. Coming up on this week's fairway row have Chris Harrison from the bachelor Allah threaten all those spreads. He's he is little known a an avid golfer, and he's played Pebble Beach at times and every pro-am we're gonna talk about a week ago. So I wanna hear about what kind of condition Pebble Beach is in and he's doing a podcast right now with Johnny Miller real Gulf, Johnny Miller. Oh, wow. Coming on the show. He's a big rewatch Ables fanny wants to come on the rewatch Ables apparently. Come on every ringer shippers there. Maybe we have Chris Harrison day, and he's just on, like, h shows is on house. The carbs is unduly threat. Jame session entity. He can. He can host. He could go between Louis CK and stroke. Could vita rate it house do 'em. I gonna lose more money on Tommy Fleetwood Jon Rahm for this use open just burn, the money on my backyard right now. Yeah. Take it on your backyard, then. Nice fire pit going back a hundred. You keep just throwing them in there. I met through our worries to throw words bet. About were like, what I saw was like. Well, obviously liked it because you love Canada. So congrats to that congrats. You canadians. Canada canada. And I love insanity. Has always a pleasure. We look forward to hearing on fairway role in this week right back. I get to maller Rubin in a second. I having a high sports at Q super important, you just saw tonight. So Steph curry, you know as a high sports Accu that did unbelievable offensive player and also has figured out all the angles on the court and take advantage of them when it comes to hiring. It's harder to find the angles. But you don't need a hiring. You know you need to their powerful technologies gainst resumes. Find people the right experience for your job. The tech doesn't stop there. Even learns what kind of candidates, you like an invites more to apply ZipRecruiter so affective four to five employers who post ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate through the site within the first day my listeners can try for free. Just go to ZipRecruiter dot com slash BS. That is recruiter dot com slash B. S ZipRecruiter is the smartest way to hire. Also, since we're wanna mention luminary the rewatch wells nineteen ninety nine our little spinoff series that we did from the, the much beloved rewatch Ables feed, which has the hangover actually this week. We did Austin powers the spy who Shagged me this week on luminary. We are dissecting some of our favorite night, nine and movies and what they meant in a really great. In really strange year in general, but a great year for movies Austin powers. The spy that shag me if you want to check it out too much of free access to luminaries, premier content for free. If you sign up at luminary dot link slash Simmons after that is seven nine per month, cancel anytime. Terms to apply. All right. Let's bring a maller Rueben. Right. The mother dragons Malley Ruben is here. Palau whenever I invite her on the podcast. I never thought, which is talking about because she hates it not knowing. This is a new extreme even for you literally have not told me anything about what we are here to game of thrones. Thrones. It's been like days. You're successful park binge bowed. You are out hashtag thrones. I didn't really talk about it here them with fellow dumb, asses, like russillo. Cousin sow. And you had that hurrying weekly presence that I heard the listening people did enjoy it. I wanted to have a big picture conversation though, about this, this kind of chasm between the die hard maniac fans and the people who just watched the show to watch it, and could barely remember to have people were who. It seems like those people kind of enjoyed the last season in the last two seasons. Whereas the die hard to relax while this happened this happened. They rush this is it possible to enjoy that show. Well, also being disappointed by. Yeah. I mean. I've up k question for you. Yeah. I love game of thrones. It's one of the most important things in my life. Sincerely. And so one of the things that I believe firmly is that part of what makes the story in the community around it so special is that there's no one right way to consume it like you, you and I relate to the street very differently. For example, I remember character names. This is wonderful. I love the brothels. You don't like the brothels the brothel. Talk about mole town whore, anytime you want great brothel stuff, but I, so I would say, I guess, in response to that I and this is not a way to avoid your question, which I will engage with momentarily, but just reframing a bit. Maybe I don't necessarily think it's those two polls, I think it's a spectrum, and I think that people fall all along that spectrum, okay? And I think that certainly maybe people who have read the books and have been really immersed in the world in story for a long time, and take it very seriously and have that extra level of anxiety about because jargon Martin has famously not finished the books, whether this is gonna be the only ending they ever get, which of course, exacerbates whatever existential dread. You have on your thinking about what happened. That's there. You think there's a second ending, potentially that could really screw with people's heads? No, I think the second ending is. Now, the thing that you crave the life raft that you see in the distance. Yeah. So you almost second chance, there are people who just watched the show. I think we're also disappointed. And then there are people who read the books and. Lot liked the ending of the show a lot. And there are people who only watch the show and either liked it or didn't, I think there are a million different responses to it, and it's not necessarily totally contingent on how seriously, you take it. I think it's probably contingent. What parts of the story matter, most you fair can I throw this because we watched the first four seasons we met overrated a little bit. I think it was an outstanding really fun show and it was fun to go in that world. But the show was always a little bit uneven. They weren't throwing perfect game the first four seasons. They had unbelievable moments in that, besides that in the moment, were amazing. But then I think you remember them like the spoiler alert like Ned Stark's demise, things like that season, one episode nine Baylor, and there was so much time between the seasons that you start to remember them more and more finally end it gets everybody's expectations to this fever pitch, that this is just. Gonna be sandy Colfax in the nineteen sixty six World Series in. It's like real life doesn't really work out that way. How many shows have actually done that it's basically been breaking bad is the only one that I remember that is successfully pulled off a last season where it was like great job really enjoyed it. Thank you. Right. Other than it hasn't happened. I, I, I agree with you. The earlier she's to the show. We're not perfect and that has with anything else that people law of and that, not only Colt, but a sizable cult following builds up around, there's a little bit of like idealising the thing in your mind that said I re runs in full every season before the new season. I constantly and is damn damn good. But, but like, okay, so on the one hand, I think still to this day, the season that I would rank last on the personal power rankings season, five Nazis, seven or eight. I thinks he's five is the weakest of the show agree on verse. -ly. My personal favorite season is season six, which is when they are beyond the book, so I am I am not actually one of the book readers who subscribe to the notion that the show thing. I mean what didn't happen in season six it's their brothels. They're always brothels always brothels you can kind of John's resurrection. Oh, yeah. John's, you know, hold are holding the door winds of winter episode season. Finale, my all time favorite soda television. Starchy blowing up the sap the John parentage reveal etcetera, etcetera etcetera Dante heading west last that was agreed Suzy's phenomenal. I think seasons three and four along with six or in the top tier. I really like three threes, fabulous. I mean, the Jamie bran bathtub scene at Herron hall in kissed by fire, the episode episode where John Negret famously fuck in the cave, and I kinda episode of television, surely two hundred K fucking sins on game of thrones. So, you know, the show is always had highs and lows. But again, I think the difference is more about. Pacing and plotting victory moments and season seven and especially in season because of obviously how closely were to the end game in that sense of you're that you knew you were running out of time to learn something new to understand something that you just didn't have those moments that used to have to really fully understand why character was making choice. I think that's the key difference. So something like, Danny and her decision to burn king's landing in her alternate turn to Queen of the ashes, I'm fine with that plot outcome. I'm fine with brand being king. It's more about how we got there and the rushed nature of the journey in the final stages. Like I've brought this up on digital before. But just think about this as a counterweight. In season, three manse raider tells the Wild Wings that he's gonna light the biggest fire anyone's ever seen. It's like literally a season and a half until that happens. We have to scenes with Danny after she lights king's landing on fire before she's killed. Two scenes with one of the primary protagonists in the show between a choice, and the consequence of that choice, a season and a half to let a fire like that is not the same nature of storytelling. I it's a fundamentally different show season. Seven eight that was plenty to enjoy. But it's different. Yeah, my biggest gripe. And I noticed it when I watched the first for seasons over again is, as you said, the pacing was so affective. Yeah. Who set up when something actually happened? Think about the red wedding. When you now rewatch the show you return to that he's three. Every time you see time, Lancaster, writing a letter, you know, now as viewer what he's plot, what he's planning, you can look jury eight in the fact that you get to witness the time and attention and care. Not only that the characters in the world are paying to the decisions that they're making. But the show was paying and things like that stopped happening. Yeah. It's even I know people should have been ten episodes. Yeah. I think it could have been one more that the big thing for me is with Danny, which I totally support. Every was so mad about the, the he'll turn. Yeah. I actually was really into it, and I supported it, and it made sense to me because it tied into all of her other experiences. And she had a real fear about. No. They like this guy Moore, she'd just lost one hundred dragons. I totally get it. I just wish there had been a couple more scenes with, you know, maybe she hooks up with Johnstone again, and then he sleeping and she's just staring at him. And couple of those things, just at least point the seat of my head more that the turns happening, I still think that turn made sense. I agree. I think that outcome is completely justifiable. I think it's been heavily for shadowed the entire run of the show, actually, and, you know, if you want, like a two hour, forty minute exploration of how, and why checkout binge mode. But. Lines of dialogue, choices that she makes you know, in the past and interior, actually, when, when tearing John are having their conversation when John visits Tyrian in his confinement. Tyrian is simultaneously, trying to sell John on why he needs to kill Danny. And also, basically, reminding viewers of the decisions Danny's made in the past, and what's different between the then. And the now similarly, heading into five the bells the king's landing battle. We have the like smash cut audio montage in the previously on where we get all the lines of dialogue or not all, but numerous lines of dialogue, where people in the past had expressed either concerns about Danny's inclinations were about tar Garin and the danger of tiger. What are the house words talk about that other time target Kyle's always fire target every kylie's? Like, you know, every time it's Gary and his born the gods flip coins, every time I see him but I used that not as like a. Very effective reminder of what they had done and more as they, they didn't spend time in the show in recent episodes, reminding us of these things. So there's this compulsion to do it in the previously on something like that is just emblematic. I completely agree that the groundwork was laid for Danny, but so they're the most some of the most effective scenes seasons season. Eight things like sauna asking what is dragging it, and Danny saying, whatever they want. That's actually that's terrifying that she thinks that, that's okay right whenever they want. What about people? This is a person who wants chained to of her own dragons beneath the catacombs marine because drove on killed one kid and now it's whatever they want, and I'm going to burn a whole city similarly in the battle, it self just don't have it happen after the bells ring, and the city, surrendered the kids. It's such a simple choice. It's actually just mass murder at that point, it really is have CB the person who is forced Danny to this terrible choice. I think is. Positioning. Danny's characters tragic figure who spent her entire life. Wines. Get home wanting to return to the place that she felt like other people robbed her and her family of working so hard to make a difference in the world. Finally gets there, finally gets to the place where she's heard all her life, the people, who you need are waiting there. What does she find those people like someone else better? That's devastating. And then on top of that, she loses Giora she loses Masan day, she loses ragle positioning somebody in that situation as. Utterly despondent and off and broken and unclear of where the line is anymore between right and wrong how to navigate the divide between liberator and conqueror that she always sort of maintained, but struggled to see the difference between had to have Barrington drawer on all of her visors. Remind her what was right. What was wrong? What her father did? And why those people are allowed for life now. So all of that, I think makes sense, but at the end of the day, the bells wrong, the Lancaster, soldiers threw down their swords, Danny burned the city that's the nature of delivering that final reveal is a tougher sell. And then again, we have one episode after that to grapple with the consequences, I still think if if you lost halo. I would burn every was killed. I'm trying to think one other thing that could happen. Lamar. Jackson couldn't throw spiral anymore burn, down a city, potentially. But yeah again, I don't even I don't object to the burn time. You burning down a city couldn't happen because you'd be toured the animals. It's true. The only person who could watch noble and get more upset about the animals than the human beings with the skin roll off their faces episode basic show episode for tra- noble. Shook me to my corn forever. Changed me for me. I will never be the same. I was I was debating whether to get my wife into the show, just so I could hidden camera her for episode for it's the most upsetting animal about the close up of the sweet little orange tabby cats face. I just when I close my eyes. Now what I see it was hunger games with pets. So upsetting I wanted to ask you about. So we started binge abode. Was that two thousand sixteen? Seven seventeen heading into. Yeah. Heading into season. Seven game three. Yeah. And this pod. It started a gain momentum. And then. It just it just seemed like three times as many people were listening to this last season. But I didn't really understand why that was happening even those happening, do you feel like what the streaming stuff just everybody was caught up by this season. What was going on? What was going on with the audience for this show 'cause I went back and I was looking at the first couple of seasons. And this is back when TV was supposed to have a bigger audience than it does now. And it's like one fourth of the audience for their premieres for stuff. Why did this show so belatedly, blossom, like it did is because we didn't have a lot of other options for prestige TV, or was just the build up the streaming the binging? What was it? I think it's a combination of multiple factors were in this era of. Boundless choice. You have so many things that you could be watching it any given moment in time, their new things on Netflix and Amazon, like Buddha, crackle, if you want stuff is everywhere, something, and you paid by crackle for that. No. But I just Jason I like to think what maybe one day crackle will come ask us to write the Harry Potter TV adaptation, you know. Oh, okay. What's up, crackle drought? The, the monoculture the idea of game of thrones being this last piece of monoculture up there with, like marvel the MC you Star Wars as the only remaining things, and certainly the only thing on television that the bulk of the people in your life, who you know, might also wanna talk to you about this thing. I think that became a very real idea and people's minds, even if the numbers are cherish collies, often like likes to point out that as massive as the numbers are for game of thrones compared to the modern television landscape. It's like nothing compared to say how many watch mash. Or how many people watched it was just listening to Juliet's interview with Chris Harrison the first season of the bachelorette, you know, it's just a different. The first survivor was like the final is like forty million. Exactly. So it's just a different era of consumption. And so I think that heading into season eight and particular and because there was such a long. Wait, you know, you had nearly two years. People knew that this was our last chance to share in this thing together. And it does really feel like the Super Bowl every week, and you don't wanna be the one person who can't talk about the Super Bowl. So I think that's part of it. I think the other thing is that again, like nitpicking storytelling choices, and pacing and plot in season. Eight seven aside of thrones is a phenomenal achievement and something special. And I think that a lot of the, the critiquing comes from a place of law. Actually, this is something that we've all invested in so deeply in love so fully that it's something we want to put under the microscope and examine in a way that we would examine a great work of literature, you know. So when you see other people who you trust and care about and value, their opinion, and they're just obsessed with this thing, you want to know why you want to understand why, and I think people knew this was her last chance to experience that in real time it certainly wasn't happening like that. And like you said, like seasons one or two or three but I think the last couple of uses just became a different. Beast. Yeah it. I don't think a lot of that is fair. I mean I agree with everything you said it's just like. I saw somebody else made this point about the last vendors movie, right? Like Aladdin shit adventures doesn't make sense. And you could pick apart people just like amid I'm gonna enjoy this. It was a game of thrones became LeBron it was just being held to the higher standard where it was supposed to be the smartest possible version of television show in or a content property. And I'm not sure that's fair for anybody. I think that you're right. I guess the difference is that and I, I love, I love the marvel movies. I loved endgame. Endgame is being examined against the standard that M you and other comic book movies and comic book proper stories have set, which is and I this is in sincerely, no shade a comic books, which I love I love comic book stores. I love superhero stories. You don't necessarily need to understand the physics and the full logic behind time travel to opt in. Yeah. You pay five minutes of due diligence to pretending to explain something and the people are with you. Are there not because they wanted to captain American ironman, making a live not because you've properly explained what happens if Hoke gets time stone, you know, so the kind of glossed over to liberate the difference is, and this back to your earlier point about whether there's actually been a change in the quality of the show across seasons. Is that I think thrones did set that standard for itself. I actually think it did. I think it's at the center that it was going to produce something with the level of even if it wasn't perfect. And some of those episodes are flawed a level of care, an ambition that is uncommon and that, that was in every respect in the cinematography, and the direction into writing in the acting in the size of the cash just the scope of the MVP is not something that we've seen. So when, that's the standard that you said, and then parts of what you get live up to that. For example, the visual storytelling season aid is astonishing. It's like Titanic achievement that I can't believe Israel. I cannot believe we saw. Things that we saw on our television screens going through after everything gets burned down her reach. Dyer not with the dust everywhere, like that was fucking amazing, the how books up the staircase at the mountain von flies over and then he passes and you see the guy on on aid. I really felt so incredible was. But I think that as with so many things in life there's room for nuance. That would be my you know, you can appreciate an admire the spectacle and the scale which I do, and still ask questions about the story. I don't think that there's any reason you can't, they're not mutually exclusive I can say that the shot of Reagan drogue on above the clouds and the long night is one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen on television and also say that I don't understand how the people standing in the dragon pit who have advocated, for John never brought up the fact that he was the rightful heir when they were talking about who should be king. We'll do those things can be true ones was rigor that was standard bub. That was the stronger one. Listen, the only thing that really was ridiculous and deserve to be nitpicked to the bitter end was Tyrian with the handcuffs on telling everybody who the next king should be. I think they meant that to be kind of funny. That whole scene was written. You know, you had the one guy stand up like there's real, there's attempts for comedy and pitch to be king is icon, IQ. I think they just wanted that to be kind of like, oh my God, this, the wheels of Kamath. But in a good way said it was like the wheels kind of just came. I don't think so. I mean, I think that the moments of levity like Ed, you're making his pitch. You know this, this, dude, who has literally been in fucking jail cell for years is like, I'm a war veteran and I'm definitely the one that you should listen to even though I have not been a part of this story in any meaningful way since Jamie to catapult my baby across into the castle. And then having a moment like Sam basically pitching democracy, and everybody laughing and Edmund ROY should the dogs get voshel my horse gonna vote that was funny. Definitely and deliberately. So I don't think anything Tyrian did was supposed to play his comedy. I think it was supposed to be a this moment. Of fulfillment redemption for character who kinda lost his fastball, and I was not clear on basically anything that got those people to that point. How worm had military control over the city if he did why he didn't kill John when he arrested him. Why anybody was listening to him in the first place, why he then gave up the control that I don't understood how he had why anybody. Tyrian how brand went from I don't want. I'm not really a person anymore to why do you think I came all this way? Sonza the only one acting rationally in that scene insisting northern independence. Okay. And then the prince of Dohrn, who literally was not even named. We don't know what Dornoch family. He's supposed to be room, the peo- D, And your a great joy, who is the one character who actually had a formal agreement with denarius in place that the iron islands would get their independence. I was part of their packed Dorn rebel against the target areas for a century have insisted on their independence across west Rosie history. Those two people never say, wait a minute. You're giving her the north what about archaisms? They just not along, like Jason said this on talk of thrones. And then after the finale, I believe Chris said something like what's going to be the first thing that brand interior have to deal with Jason was like war? We're gonna realize they all sort of aspirin, depending those that stuff was just. Incense rushed sunset kind of Grabner governor north signs. I well the big winner of the whole season. It was Starks. The wolves. No. Sophie Turner who put the summer so ingrained just incredible. She's an icon. I have this Email for you. I had to read, you, I thought Kay from Brian garwood, did the GOP guys predict Kawai winning the finals will we have to bland personalities when the two most anticipated games of the summer. Think about it. Both unexpected forgotten first season major leg injuries. Switch to low key, great under pressure and came into league with fairly low expectations. He said, I gotta hear you russillo discusses. I think you're better candidate. I don't know why and brand brand the broken the broken. I like this now I'm starting to think Toronto could win the files. It's interesting. I said this on desktop last week, I think that the ending a game of thrones stark Centric, you know, ghost is back with John Mara out there exploring the sunset, see brand, even though he says, I'm not a star ruling the six games signs independent kingdom in the north the end the seventh book initially Martin serious was supposed to be. All the time for wolves. So a lot of heads are calling the time from wolves. I think this predicts the rise of the timber wolves that's the that's the basketball comp going with wolves time their towns. All right. That's interesting towns would be John stark so many times did you cry during the season countless, countless? I mean what was the biggest cry for the season? Finale. Oh, I. Out, then you watching John. I mean. Ghost. The one thing my sweet ghost. Boy, I love him so much John writing off into the north. I mean kill me. I feel that part feels very fitting, I wish that he had sent himself to the north. I wish that he had abdicated his throne. I think all of the Maistre Ayman comparisons that we got in this season something like hearing pod, sing Jenny song, which has a connection to Duncan. Tar, Gary and who abdicated his throne the role. These clues John was going to formally renounce, obviously, he kept saying to Danny, I don't want it. But I think after she died having him say, no, I actually don't want it. I'm gonna send myself out into the wilderness, given the importance of choice as a theme in the story and identity and the Yu-chu in your own course, over someone else defining your life for you. I think that would have been really powerful. But John heading off beyond the wall is he now, the king beyond the wall is he gonna go and desert, the night's watch and range out in the north and said him when they parted at winter, felon episode four, you've got the north and you're the real north and that, that killed me. Does he make it to the? Fourteen hundreds. Also, everything with Jamie brand. I mean when Jamie night brand in the second episode sobbing was yours. I was a wreck that's the best ones scenes. And then he, he knighted her get drifts boy. Did he ever good night? Ding couple of sorts later, my theory that she was pregnant, and they decided to cut it out right at the end now. We have obviously, the search search pregnancy plot Gilly revealed that she was pregnant, I was certain The Danny was going to be pregnant this season. I would so much so much check off. I have a barren womb and can't have babies talk in season. Seven between dragon eggs in one fiery night, that your room is never the same after that, there's a whole quickening womb plot in the fifth book that indicates that her belief that she can't have children is, is mis founded and wrong. And I thought that that would happen in the show. I don't know what changed between seasons. But clearly many things changed between seasons seven and eight because like the whole golden company thing in getting this is Jason. I've spent a lot of time talking about this army is built up as the army big role in the in the books sell sort, army, fabled. Never broken a contract and. Except they do once the books, but they get onto the show. Harry Strickland is introduces a show character in their obliterated in length twelve seconds. I couldn't believe it. No wonder they didn't bring the elephants. It's not worth the CGI to just especially by the show, standard of what's worth CGI with animals. That was bizarre. So I have to assume that not having any be pregnant alternately was just another chain between seasons. Maybe they thought it was too dark but died while pregnant to Lisa was stabbed in the stomach thread, wedding while pregnant, it's not like they haven't done that before. So which your relationship, mentally with a benef- unwise Serena created something that is one of the most important things in my life. And I will be forever grateful. I wish that we had. So it's season. Seven eight that's all great answer. Trying to be positive was your life the last year and a half just beating people actually you don't really leave your house. But if you did was at a lot of people bring up game of thrones. The guy delivering post mates. I k- what do you think it's gonna happen in season? Eight as you know, I make out answer the door when post. Yeah. Lot of thrones talk, a lot of Harry Potter talk. I get the occasional Joe. Flacco comment. You know, from the what's up. Jackson like kidding that throw spiral anymore. What's going on? He'll be fine. He'll be fun. I believe it's going to be a great Kobe. Find cigarettes are I believe he's going to be I believe in the offense Hollywood Brown a first round draft pick drafted a lot of speed at skill positions. Sign Mark Ingram Earl Thomas. Yeah. Get and binge abode is gonna take a break for little bit. But then we're gonna come back with something we are in dean and come back with something Rebecca in the in the wedding room. But what the highlight of all of this was the Baltimore Sun wrote a feature bat. You. And then it was in the newspaper in your mom, but fifty copies, he was just mail, and then just on a street corner hand in the mouth to random people in Baltimore. She mailed me, so many copies. She sent me a really a door picture of her holding the paper with just a big smile on her fade. I was great. I love that. She said a text message threat. I don't know who like seventy percent of the phone numbers on this threat Arshi, then also sent an Email to, I think almost everyone her life. She posted on Facebook. It's precious, but my dad is very excited. I got a text message from my grandma with all sorts of a mo-, g it was the Baltimore contingent was was delighted by was very sweet. Very sweet. The parents get so door about this stuff. My dad says Boston you walk in you go in the bathroom, and there's like two different pictures of the Obama and then you go into the bathroom, and it's four different frames that, like, no matter where you're peeing, if you look around, I'm just staring at you in some form. And I'm always like this. Psychotic like what's wrong with you? And it's like you'll understand you'll understand one day does it have to be in the bathroom four pictures of me in the bathroom, like he's a psycho, but he's gonna stand some day, but I was thinking about that. Maybe like the fourth floor of the your house, dining nook for. But when when Ben becomes a professional wrestler someday, I'm sure I'll have pictures of him with Debbie 'bout you'll have them lining. The trampoline basketball. All right. So we're back. We're, we're plotting. Next big bench about thing we are. And that's it. I'm glad you're in a good space with game of thrones I was a little worried about you. I was saying that somebody was like the equivalent of the NBA just ended like if this was the last finals ever, and I had to just like I have seven more games, potentially Toronto golden stay. And then I never get to watch the NBA again. Here's how processing that. Yeah. On the one hand suspen a monumental thing in my life. And this particular facet of it is over. And that's devastatingly sad to me, and I feel empty and alone. However, remember, old NAN season one she's sitting by brands bedsides stories, okay old. Dan, one of my favorite quotes in the books. He's old man saying to brand, the stories are lake. The stories are they exist, and you can return to them, whenever you want show will always be there for us. The books will vote for us. The phantom will always be there for us. I will always enjoy rewatching reading we're to the world. Hey, maybe we'll get another book, Georgia, I believe in you spin offs. Who knows? Believer forever. The labored Celtics in the mid nineties, when the Celtics were just rock bottom to, to our best guys died, when we were just awful, and we'd go out and the J bug, and I brought up my nice big bang at that point. It's smoking more pot. Yes. We are smoked pot four Sarah patch kids, and we would watch like an old bird basketball game. We're just kind of go back in time back when the Celtics matter, this'll be you and game of thrones. I am a fan of all the things you mentioned specifically sour patch kids. Let's go with that Jenny's. I the only married for the people as things the only person I've ever known who posts mates ice cream Dale. It's embarrassing. I'm not ashamed though, recently got a new order. Some great seasonal offerings, your back strawberry buttermilk on the menu. It's wonderful the sweet cream with the biscuit, and the peach jam one of my favorites back on the menu put down a pint. That while watching the bachelorette the other night, Felker it. So what media are you going to consume though? I'm rewatching deadwood. Really watching watching deadwood a truly spectacular television achievement. I'm all in on tra- knowable, as you know, I gotta catch up on billions, of course, that's been a, a hole in my life. I can't wait to to learn who hard. Bob is. I miss wags miss everything about billion, so I'll binge that. I'll catch up hopefully alley legitimately personally that your ten up so it's behind. It's, it's not something I want actually physically hurts. I didn't choose the timing of game of thrones. I'm billions the world did that to me. I can't wait to catch up on billions, and I'm excited about a lot of stuff that's coming soon. Succession, obviously love. I'm really excited about good omens stranger things. I this is a little. I can't wait. Can't wait for big little live the ringer. And little bit further down the road. His dark materials HBO show. That's coming up soon sometime in the fall on the D yet that those are some of my all time favorite books. I watching him attention. I'm excited for watchmen to I love the watchman then the big Kahuna way down the road if they don't fuck it up as Lord of the rings. I figure like Amazon the richest company in the world. I cannot wait so much money on it. And just that could be great for us. It's going to be fabulous cog, man. One of the producers on game thrones. Ryan, cognitive Mun. The Georgia margin has called on the third headed the dragging along with the why sees consulting on the ring show. I think that Lord luring shows gonna be special young era, born here we go. Let's do biggest when you had this year as my son watching all the Harry Potter movies. It's incredible. Yeah. Where did he where did he net out on favorite characters still Dahbi and haggard? Yeah. Yeah. Whoever they are there areas. One will you read the books? We'll read the buff when he learns how to read about five years. Age sixty. Could that could be Speedo, right? From the audio books into the podcast. This hundreds of hours of audio the mother, would you call Danny the Queen of ash Queen of the ashes Queen of the ashes, we are the mother drag it a hoping to become the Queen of the ashes. Thank you. Thank you, Bill. Hey when it comes to your underwear feeling cool is pretty cool. If you ran for looms cool zone flag boxer brief, you'll be feeling both cool and cool right now. It's better than feeling cool and cool. I dunno nothing. I don't know for them upgrade, their cotton, boxer brief by adding a ventilated mesh fly ventilated mesh fly toes to promote air flow and support. Right. Where you need it most, we didn't need it. Most kyle. I would say right there. Lies in the nets is perfect the cool zone. Fly boxer briefs consumer tested expertly designed each pair features dual defense technology design, a wiccan moisture and defending its odor keeping you dry and fresh no rat up legs breathable, mesh the cool zone, fly box brief made for guys who want to stay cool and comfortable all day long. You know, I'm one of those guys that I never changed my underwear and I was like, I have the same ten to twelve things that I wear. Over and over again. I roll the dice. I tried these guess what? Super comfortable. They're not lying. Takes the flies really good worried about as especially in the summer months in need things to be a little cooler certain places. If you could use a little extra ventilation your life. Check out a fruit dot com and you could check out the ventilated fly for yourself, use the code Bill to receive an additional ten percent off their current promotion of twenty percent off the cool zone. Fly boxer briefs once again, that is fruit dot com. Promo code, Bill. By the way, while we're here, ringer NBA show is crank in all the way through the finals. We have a whole schedule. We have a bunch of our ringer, people that are gonna be on and they're posting podcast right after the game. I'm not going to be posting podcast after finals game. But if you want that immediate reaction stuff, follow the ringer, MBA show and great host, like John van, Saleh's, blues fan, GRIs, fern, and Kevin O'Connor whole bunch of ho bunch of our ringer people. So you can list that speaking of the blues invited Jon Hamm diehard, Saint Louis blues fan to come on the podcast. But he's traveling for movie. If the series goes into the later games, we'll see if he has the courage to come on that John him. I don't know. I told them he lost. He lost to the, the Red Sox two thousand thirteen with cardinals any lost Ben Affleck at the end of the town. So he's less. His last two against Boston. So they not to mention soup both thirty six. Yeah. Come on. John him. Anyway, we're bringing now in David shoemaker to talk about wrestling. Here we go. All right. On the line right now, longtime ringer grantland colleague coast of the mass man show in the ring pack has his woes, the press box, which is, is keeping keep an eye on the press box over the next couple of weeks f why all good things. Not bad things. David shoemakers here. How are you? I'm doing great man doing great. This is a big week for for wrestling nerds like me. Yeah. I just we were talking before he came out. And I was like I hate doing the same topic on my podcast that you do on the mass man show because you're going to do that with better people, but this was really really really important week. And I really feel like something siesmic has happened. And we've seen now a contender that was carefully put together carefully thought out and really well executed make a real run at the WW for the first time I think this century, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean first of all, I wanna say that I'm glad it may. Makes it makes me feel good. When you wanna step on my podcast, because it validates the craziness with which I follow this stuff at time, I it's easy to work myself onto a shoot in the wrestling parlins about this stuff and convince myself that, that Seth Rollins promo was the biggest thing that's ever happened in wrestling history. But this is one of those moments where when you text me. I'm just like oh, good. This is big deal as I thought it was. Yes. So all elite wrestling e w just started up. They they've been announced for a little while they had their first pay per view, although not under the age of you banner. Awhile back called all in it was just, you know, spos- supposedly one off event, then they linked up dusty Rhodes the young bucks, Kenya mega these, these four big wrestlers go into business together hook up with Tony Kahn. The co owner of the Jacksonville Jaguars and they start this company, this past Saturday night was double or nothing. Their first official pay per view. The w banner and they have TV time slot. This fall on T and t. They're not going to go head to head with WW either they repeat over and over again, that they're not trying to be sort of WCW style competition but for wrestling fans, that's just it. Yeah. And this is a huge deal. I mean it's, it's not you don't have to go head to head on Monday nights, if he competition, especially not in the you know, over the top era. This is another giant wrestling company with billion dollar backing. And it's a really really enormous thing for the industry. That's happening. Yeah. If you're tracing the lineage of this stuff the, the Monday night wars famously like ninety seven range. Really? Get the get this gone. It's even starts ninety six ninety six ninety seven ninety eight is when wrestling in the internet collide in a big way for the first time and you have this whole community now that has all these online buddies to complain about stuff with and talk about and angles and rumors and gossip. And it just explodes in it's awesome. And everybody likes wrestling just really enjoys this one. Era and then it becomes a lot of complaining in. Why do they do this way, why this group this angle, this GRA banning leads this whole other era of the wrestling for the first time, actually, kind of listening, and wink winking some of the stuff that people are talking about online? Yeah. But the one common theme for those twenty years, our man, it'd be fine if somebody just challenge WW correctly now because we don't like WWE. It would just be fun to have somebody that said all the care about is the wrestling and have an awesome shows, and I shouldn't have to watch all Japan and all these other places. I want, like my old school wrestling fix. Why do they have to have the three hour raw? Why do they have to have, you know, the terrible promos? All this stuff have just wrestling. There's a there's an idea and all the characters that got squandered over the years, and people that we thought were really good that never really hit their stride, Debbie WB was winning. They were doing great. I love it. I went to wrestlemainia my son is all in like it's not like we don't like WB, but it was always like it'd be fun if there's one more challenger and now feels like we have David shoemaker. It sure does. I mean, listen, we're talking about the Monday night wars era, and how that was the air that all these wrestling fans love. It's not just us WWE loves that era to half of the content on the WB is in reminiscence of the Monday night wars. I mean sure part of it, most of its they won. And they're glorifying themselves in the process. But that listen, there's two big things at Mark some of the greatest moments in wrestling history. One is technological leaps in cable TV came on restless when wrestling took the big jump on. There have been numerous examples over the years. But the other thing is competition, WWF would never have been WWF without the end of UA going without trying to take over for the NWEA. They would've never been what they are today if they didn't have WCW going at them on Monday nights, and then they tried to create their own competition by doing a brand split between Ron smackdown. Now, they had this sort of, in house competition from inex- t. And they previously, they had e c w but they're never going to have competition like real competition. And for years, it was there is the specter of TNA wrestling, which became impact wrestling, which sort of took that spot and more than anything. I think just squatted on squatted on TV time slot and made it impossible for anyone else to compete because they underachieve or they weren't able to achieve up to the level of WCW or something and discouraged other competition. But now we finally had this other thing, and you're right. I mean, part of it's just real wrestling in part of it is, is old school. And we saw this double, or nothing on Saturday night, Cody Rhodes versus Dustin Rhodes the two children of dusty the, the legend go head to head in the bloodiest grudge match, you could imagine that, of course. Spoiler alert ended with them, you know, embracing at the end of the match. Yeah. Emotional old school emotional invested wrestling, and seventy percent of the power of that was in these beautiful promos. They cut before the event on there were on YouTube. And I mean that was really cool. And then the other half. It is this very, I guess, in wrestling terms is kind of ultra-modern style of sort of post real post post, you know, K Fave. Trying to make you believe it's real, the super flippy like all over the place, but really taken to this, this, this extent of pure athletic ballet, that is, you know, throw suspension of disbelief out the window. It's just amazing exercise. I mean it's just as mazing spectacle, and they do that, too. And if they find a way to sort of bridge, those two things and make it into a compelling weekly program, while, I mean, they're going to they're going to really give, though w run for their money in competition as you said is a good thing. It, it is it is no reasonable on their toes and make them, you know, sometimes you get fat. You look at anything that has kind of anybody that had a huge lead that kinda fucked it up. You know, not just wrestling, you look like Sports Illustrated, which just got sold. I don't even really understand that sale you and her. Press box kind of sale, but not really Sports Illustrated, had a massive lead on everybody, and what happened they never figured out the internet, and they never figured out podcast and figured anything and eventually everybody else caught up to them, ESPN some degree, you know, they basically threw a three or four years there. This, this decade where they just kinda didn't have their shit together with the streaming. Now they're belatedly into it Rolling Stone. You know, they have this huge, huge foothold and they just kinda get old. And they don't really realize they have to reinvent themselves as pop culture on the internet. So this happens. I don't feel like this was dire straits for the Debbie by any means. I mean a lot of ways two thousand eighteen was one of the best years in the history of the company where they had, you know, big stars. They had a monopoly, the WWE work did really well, but then all of a sudden it started a foot near the end of the year for a lot of different reasons. One of. Of which was not as many stars as they normally had the made a big bet on, on the women's side, that it's still unclear whether you know, whether you could really have these main events with, with, with the woman wrestlers that it's going to resonate. With people. We have we seen it yet. No. I mean, we saw wrestlemainia I think that was an unqualified success. But I think they match was well, I mean, I'm not sure the match I thought the matches great. I'm not sure the match was that I think more than anything that match suffered from going on at midnight. Right. The five hour card. Yeah. Longer than that. But, but I think that I think it was women's wrestling. It's I think it's there is a lesson there that was that has been neglected on the inside to over the past decade with me, which is just you have to make matches matter. And if matches matter like they feel like the Becky Lynn Changle, leading into wrestlemainia did then that can be a main event, and that can be a big deal. But you're just you can't just wave the banner of women's wrestling, and people expect people to line up. Yeah. The storytelling aspect was just all over the place, which we'll talk about the podcast. Chris Jericho in the second. But I think that's what they really lost. They had so much talent that they could just say, hey, we're really going to get the women's wrestling side going. Let's go. And they. All these wrestlers and then half of them, the stories are just completely all over the place. Then on the men's side you have, you know, you have a couple of injuries the Roman reigns saying they didn't expect right? Is there about ready to bring the shield back? But, you know, there was also people. They mismanaged and which leads us to AWS, gin DNA Umbro's, who is somebody that I thought was really good. And they could never quite figure out what his character was and all of a sudden he'd be a bad guy again. It's like what happened was he angry about, what's he declared war on people don't understand it? But it was still somebody was a really good wrestler, and was good at so in the other guy, and all the stuff you need to have a real. You know, a stalwart Awa him, and that's somebody you can build part of your business around. I think I think he can be one of the best four guys they w pretty quickly and fertilizing could have been one of the best guys in WWE. Listen, you mentioned ESPN earlier, and maybe this is tortured comparison, but we WWE's done. Basically sense has tried to do basically since, you know the rock left is make the brand more important than any of the names of the wrestlers, right? Yeah. That was that's a criticism that was leveled with. I mean legitimately at ESPN for a long time when they were letting their biggest name anchors walk, if they became if they wanted too much money if they thought they were too big for sportscenter whatever, and w scene, a procession of potential big stars. Pat pass through and a lot of are still there. But you know there's, there's a ceiling on someone like Daniel Bryan momentarily, transcend the sport. Right. But there's only one John sina in the past fifteen years, or whatever see him punk was going to be that guy, but then seeing punk disgruntled. And he left, right. Yeah. There's there you can look at a Seth Ron's. Look at Roman reigns. They're trying to make that guy. But in the environment, it's become impossible dean Ambrose, listen, dean is not the rock, you know. But he's not see Vossen, and I've taken some crap for comparing him to stone cold Steve Austin in the past, but because dean Ambrose is not a consistent has not. Been a consistent performer, but when he was the champion, and he was standing in the middle of the WW ring the fans reacted to them in a way that's really, really hard to put words to. I mean he was he is a real charisma when he's put in that spot that almost nobody else in the wrestling business has. And you wonder why there was this inconsistency? You wonder why you never knew eighty was doing well he answers that on the, you know, Jerko podcast and that's because he invents had different different ideas of who this character was. Yeah. You know, and if you have if someone's, you know, writing for, you know, if you know if Kevin Hart and the rock, switch roles in Central Intelligence. It doesn't make any sense, you know, because you're writing for different for different person to play the part, it's not gonna work now in a w he popped up there at the end of the against whether alert at the end of the show at the end of the main event. And when at Chris Jericho, who's there now, in Kenya mega who you know, according to a lot of people's the best wrestler, in the world. And by the way wrestled entire main event match with a broken nose. Zada. Oh my. He popped up there and immediately legitimizes the company and it religion is, is a guy who you know, had his ups and downs WWE. And it's also one of the old oldest wrestling moves in the book to pull these lightly. Disgruntled never was used totally correctly guy from the other place. Oh, yeah. And just get in just move. All your chips behind them. What's interesting to me about what's happening here and why I think it's different is they're they're doing it correctly. So all right. What does that mean? First of all, it looks really good. It looks really professional. It's like well-thought out it looks like they've spent money. It's not like the, you know, like something like UC, w which I really enjoyed back in the day in the nineties, but it always little bargain basement, he, you know, cable access the jerem everything about it was cutting corners. And I think that's mostly been what we've had with contenders except for the Ted Turner. And, and, and w w w like that whole world. That the quality is there from the behind the scenes standpoint. And then the second thing is, you know, Tony Kahn who I had talked to a couple times way back when really haven't talked to them in a couple of years, but is the opposite of insect. Man, I would say in every conceivable way but loves wrestling, and really obviously cares about it and has put a lot of thought into it. Yet works doesn't work. Sure. And you can see it in the blueprint every move. They've made has been smart. And I think there's room for both. I, I mean it's for me, it's like the more wrestling, the better. That's quality. I just look at how my son reacted to it. I was with my daughter all weekend soccer tournament. And my son was at a baseball tournament. My wife, so we didn't see the pay per view. But the next day I found out about the dean embrassing in the morning, and so time them, and I was like, hey, did you see what happened in the Awa thing last night, I watched all the quips and like he was? Very hardy. Key watch on Twitter. He knew it was going on, like Dave already gotten him. He's eleven. So he has WW. He has Awa Andy as inex- t which she loves which we shouldn't gloss over and x t is basically, become in a weird way the rival to WWE nother owned by the same thing now, eight w I would say, that's their competition coming out of the gate, right? They had to beat an x t I yeah, yes. I think that's right. I mean he doesn't have a TV deal in there. Some there was some discussion that, that might be part of a of a FOX, you know, package or whatever and they're making that I don't think they've any that's been inked out. It's just on the WB network. I'm I'm more for like from coolness the p the real wrestling fan type of people. Yeah. They kind of steal that corner from WC or firma annex, t or at least share it. I think ironically, I would have said without a doubt a feud has me a year ago that the biggest the biggest problem, you know, the, the biggest hurdle facing e w was being better than next e. I think that in the past year, there's been a little bit of downswing in fan feelings about an t and I'm really you know making a lot of assumptions here. But I think that the hype is gone down a little bit, just because the biggest stars of inex- t have continually been Paul. This used on the main, Ron onto the main roster and then misused there and it's sort of hard to get your self on vested in, you know, Adam Cole or whoever when you're just when you feel with great certainty that he's gonna wind up, you know, jogging out to, to, you know, drew McIntyre, whatever for five weeks on raw. I mean, it's it's a and so in a little bit. You know a little bit. It's a little bit harder of a of a comparison now, but I do think that they do have to go head to head with the next he with the perception of the next. And I think partly that's why you saw Cody Rhodes or take a shot at triple h the only way they really address WWE, besides the existence of rose. Reich AA Johnny Jon Moxley was Cody taking a sledgehammer to triple h style thrown before his match. So I mean, I think that there's a little bit of a, there's going to be a little bit of that rivalry going on, as we start even if as they continue to say they're not competing with WWE. Yeah. I think. It comes down to wrestling always comes down to you need. What seven eight people? Realistically, it anytime you can push. It's like a basketball team. Yeah. Quite eight-man rotation in wrestling. You need a people, you need like the one reliable superstar need the one. Great. He'll and you need the one up a calmer and any kind of mix and match or have bring new people up that nobody known pit them against one of the establish date. And I think sometimes WW like it's just really hard at the at the same time, they don't have the eight, but it's also hard for people to crack that eight see the people that I thought were definitely gonna crack it like some. Oh, joe. I thought it was going to be like a real star for them for sure. And that doesn't feel like that really happened. Or you know, you mentioned the next guy's ricochets amazing. Oh, yeah. I mean he's a he's my son's favorite wrestler, that guy is like in person is completely out of control. It's like seeing. Janice? And they're probably gonna screw him up. Right. Like, that's somebody that should become. He should immediately be a topic. I for them. He's so freaking exciting. And I just don't there's it's almost like there's no road map for him to do that. The press. Yeah. I mean that's the problem I think w right now is that they have difficulty. I mean in this part of it's just it's a huge corporation with an enormous infrastructure that it was is insurmountable at times. But it's but it's catching lightning in a bottle is really hard when you're when you're a corporation of that size, you know, I mean, it would be imagine trying to get NBA desktop off the ground that ESPN. I mean, like it's there's some things that you can just do as a smaller company can be more fleet-footed and, and you know, change direction on the on the fly and WB that's really difficult. And now we can get into the Jon Moxley Chris Jericho interview. Yeah. But the most damning thing that he said and he's been a lot of time talking about it was just the, the. Impenetrability of the of the creative process, just the way that he was impossible talent. The wrestlers weren't really like giving much input into their own characters, and we're kind of constantly position of fighting off the worst impulses of Vincent man and the writing staff. And, you know, even if even if that having a big writer's room that coming up the ideas is the right solution, and having everything funnel through Vincent man made good content. You the, you still have a sameness issue or everything is being funneled through the same guy at the end of the day. All yes, very much the same and you know wrestling fans can attest the fact that you feel like you see a lot of things repeated week after week that maybe someone just forgot that they did a month ago or, you know, the same finishes to a match the same sort of the same vibe for what a hero is would villain is, and then also. Yeah, I mean, what makes a professional wrestler, and for people who weren't wrestling fans. This is probably not soliciting this podcast. But if you are it's not just being able to go drop elbow off the top rope and grab your built and say, yeah, you know, it's, it's having been the guy standing in front is mirror in a hotel room in poughkeepsie coming up with that idea, if the guy who says Kyle just raised his arm that you're talking about him. It's the guy it's, it's the guy who watches a VHS tape of, you know, Japanese wrestling from nineteen Ninety-three and sees a move and says, oh my gosh. That's the move. I'm going to do. You know, it's the it's the guy who grows up in this day and age playing WWF video games on super Nintendo's, or on, on XBox, or whatever else and imagine themselves doing it and makes an actual is, is that fifteen years later, you know, or it's my son on the trampling trying to ricochets seven twenty by the way, that's a real thing that's happening. And he's going to die on the trip. Well, I hope best wishes to bend over it doesn't happen. But listen of all of the of all of the eleven year olds I've ever met in the world. Ben Simmons has the highest upside for being a professional really does with the exception of maybe some kids on the US gymnastics team that we have and yet though bins probably going to be much bigger than them, his whole life is like he's training for eight years from now to be they, it's, it's really AWS should just start scouting him now. Like what headed time? Well, two things I have I long ago pitched the idea to have a rest, a pro wrestling summer camp for kids, because like humbling and cutting promos, and who wouldn't send their kids to that. Yeah, we'll set that aside for right now. But listen, the point is that been Simmons being told what being handed a script and told what to say, even twenty four year old Ben Simmons is not gonna work now of all of the people who were made to do this. It your son is maybe one of them and that process is not gonna work for him. Well, and then the other thing is are we sure that should be the process anymore? You know it shouldn't. The point. They don't know. I don't know. Anybody who's like, you know, it's awesome. That was three hours. Yes, so psyched. I'm so sake for three hour. That's coming up in what's weird is. I got no love the w people I think they're like exceptionally smart. A lot of the stuff. They've done has been really savvy. I think what they did with an x t and the training center and what they're doing out there. I pee in studios and all that stuff like it's really smart. I would I don't understand is how Connor productive a three hour week is how counterproductive the five hour wrestlemanias. Like at some point they need a little kick in the ass to be like, oh, actually, we, we have to care a little bit more about winning fans over week to week. And this is the perfect way to do it. This is the AWS is the super hot next door neighbor who moved in who's by the pool everyday on the bikini, and where to bikini and just like having a Dachary kinda stare new over the bushes, and you just gotta be wary of them, you have to and the other thing is there's going to be wrestlers who aren't happy in their current up, Debbie's. Situa-. Nation who are watching what just happened with Jon Moxley? Yeah. Oh man. That could I'm a next. I'm sure they got causes week right there. Must have been what fifteen people that must have call them? Bill came in. Dave Meltzer says, it's, it's enough people to count on two hands. That have inquired people that you wouldn't expect until it'll be really. I mean, we know that there's some names out there, Sasha banks sort of sitting out right now. Luke harper. Right. Been sent home. He's getting paid. But he's basically been told they don't need him until his contract, and then the essential, I mean, sorry, the, the revival of the tag team is, you know, is they formally rejected so very, very healthy contract renew, you know extension with the with the expectation that they'll be heading over at some point. But those are just a few of the names, you look at marks, and you have to think that there's got to be a, you know, great career move there. Yet, there's even people that don't eat mean, people that the name that keeps coming up in conversations is Randy Orton, because he's out there on Twitter, just being really sort of dismissive of his career. He's kind of acting out a little bit. And you know, he doesn't need the money. And he doesn't ever seem like the guy that just like desperately wanted to be wrestling in Japan or anything like that just approve his metal, but like man, if somebody like, if somebody like that can look at Jon Moxley and say that looks like fun than that's huge. You know, that's a really big deal. Samoa Joe's, I mean, we don't know what these contracts are some people. But Samoa Joe is want to me that feels like you put him in AWS your lead villain, and he's just ripping through people. That could be something, you know, I was thinking about all right? Scott hall, and Kevin Nash when they jumped. Uh-huh. Like, all right. How big of a deal was that just for how talented they were right? Diesel was the champ for while Scott hall as razor. Just, you know, had some of the best matches of the mid nineties, they definitely big guys. They weren't like the guys it wasn't like getting, you know, Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart, basically, when they came over, if vaulted them to another level, and what else helped was that they were the first two guys that did it. And the third guy was the one two three kid who became pack now. I, I don't know it was like one of the top forty guys in the WWE roster at that point. But by being the third guy he became a guy. Yeah. You know, and wasn't he the third guy he was the third one, right? Yeah. No, no, he well he was he was the third crossover. He was the third one that because it was it was a big show, and then but they were there. Yeah. Million dollar man was weirdly, there are there are there. I think being in that first wave of I jumped and I'm reinventing myself is a good career move for, I would say about eight to ten guys on the on the and there's going to be a limit to how many they're gonna sign. I mean, they've said this in and I think that it'll it'll bear out that, you know there's a limit. They can't just be WWE two point. Oh, you know, if it's all if it's all WWE perceived to be WB cast-offs, even if it's the cream of the crop at that's gonna be a heart perception to to compete with. There's that's a good storyline, though is they signed like five of them, and it becomes, like, the, the old school guys don't like the new guys like oh, you're just trying to Glomma on our success. Yeah. We did this without you. We don't need you. This is our thing. And then you can, you know that's what we love when real life spills into the. Yeah, absolutely. And that's what an you know, it's gonna remains to be seen how much of a deal, they're gonna make about that, when they have, you know, a weekly TV time slot to fill. You know, you don't want to go too much in the in the territory of reality. I mean of. Straight up like shoot interviews or whatever, but there, but they got walking that line figuring out the right tone is the is, is difficult. But that's what they're going to have to do. They, they have to be a modern wrestling company, and they have to address that stuff. So how many times has somebody been in this specific spot that they're in now where people are just in on them and fired up to see where it goes, and feel like all right? Finally, somebody's here, that represents me, which is you had like these CW. Right. You see w. Yeah. But that was I mean for like a year and a half there, maybe. Yeah. I mean no easy. W W had a good run of being that company from word of mouth from the beginning of word of mouth to they're sort of, like peak on cable on TNN or whatever am not they're not creative peak, but they're national more creative like the ninety seven ninety and they started having those pay per views and they, they had a long run a year and a half is probably probably less than than what they deserve. But but somewhere around there yet I mean they had a good run. I mean, honestly, it's it can't possibly be the same thing. But WWE WWF sorry when like, you know, Mick Foley famously won the championship and the night when on that pre-tape segment, and they were, they were they position themselves so much as the underdog that I remember as a wrestling fan feeling like okay and the end of yoga was sort of getting tired, and that felt like that Vinson WWF actually responding to the fans. And they were, you know, in, in a way that, that yeah good call. They were like the Tampa Bay rays in the WCW was like the Yankees. Yeah, these big contracts go, and they were building around these younger people or these old established dudes. Everybody likes that they're giving a moment to and worked for. I don't know what other third nineties, then it gets a little dark in the two thousands, but. I also I don't think you can under- eight. The TNT Bleacher report thing 'cause they don't have a lot of new stuff going on from their end. And this is something you can, you know, you see when they get behind something like the house highlights feed like game zones. They don't they don't have a ton of like new p that they can be like, hey, look at this. We got this Champions League was like that for them. I think they're going to really get behind this. And, you know, you're looking at a world where this Warner media, they're trying to combine all these assets, and TNT and TBS and true TV are going to be under one person. And HBO's reporting AT and T and all these different things happening there, clearly headed to a world where like sports becomes, like vertical for them because they have basket. All they have March madness. They have with the baseball playoffs and couple other things in wrestling. Is fifty two weeks a year if you do a correct, it's a huge asset for them if they can pull it off. So I'm sure they will. I'm sure they'll promote the shit out of it. Yeah. I mean it remains to be seen how much content if it's going to be fifty two weeks or what? Because, you know, they've eight of us already been pushing back in terms of offering full-timers health insurance and stuff in, in the subtle ways in the little ways that that diehard wrestling fans. You know, have suggested that w change, I've been, I was out early about about asking for an off season for the sake of these wrestlers for fans to, to recharge. But maybe maybe they'll do that. Maybe august. Maybe they will you know, release road give guys you know, give give give the performers, you know, rotating break vacations or whatever. But that's, that's a market inefficiency for them, though. Right. Like that's a way you could still do some dub w pretty easily. Yeah. For seven months year instead of twelve the WB basically did this with Brock listener. And that's it. Yeah. Well, Chris Jericho too. I mean, who's now part of AWOL Eric kind of made blaze that trail for himself because he had the ability to say I'm gonna go play with my band. You know, me the ability to be like, if I'm gonna keep doing this event for a long time that I have to be. I can't just do it every week. And, and that's Bryan Curtis. Is that at the ringer just, you know, we don't mess with them. He just kind of tells us what he's gonna do. And we don't win. Everyone make them upset then he comes in and hit somebody with a chair. Everybody goes crazy. But yeah, no, I think you're right about TNT. I think that they're really going to get behind it. And I think that there's I think that, that one, you know, we've talked about this, I've talked about it at length, but it's as as silly as it might sound wrestling is cooler now than it was ten years ago. It's cooler now than it was five years ago. And there's a lot of reasons for it. But part of it's just, you know, I always say when I was growing up people made. Fun of you for watching wrestling. The first thing they said was, you know, that stuff's fake, don't you? And now it's impossible for someone who spends night a week watching the Kardashians to make that sort of comment. Yeah. Every everything has just gotten faker and everything has gotten more ironic. And it's okay to like silly stuff like wrestling, wrestling fans have known this all along. But I think WWE has really and I don't and I'm not saying your tongue them what to do. I don't have any brilliant ideas but WWE has been behind the curve, exploiting, that change. Right. I mean, they have not, they have not been able to make wrestling their brand of wrestling as relevant, as it could should be in the modern era where it's like, you know, when I started this when I started writing about wrestling, people were people in, you know, professional writers were floored that this was a thing that someone in Brooklyn would be willing to do. Right. And I was an and now it's like we, there's more people who write about wrestling than their other write about music. I mean it's like it's, it's so much like the shifted so much on the ground. It's so funny. I remember trying to I remember telling you peon that one of the people we are hiring was a guy who was gonna write wrestling for us, and they were just two thousand eleven to John Walsh. Like, yes. So we're gonna cover wrestling, this great writer. Professional wrestling, just like completely stupefied by we hit a lot of wrestling cut that those first couple of months grill, remember, okay, even wrote like to pieces, but we had a ton of stuff, but yet now by the end of this decade, it's become a cottage industry. Do you think Meltzer, by the way is involved in this a w? No, I mean I don't I don't think he's financially involved in the I don't I think that do you think he's like a consultant? I think I think that he's really good friends with the people who were running the company and I think that, that inevitably he's gonna, you know, have some conversations with people. I mean, there's always been a thing about Meltzer in new Japan about his his level of, of, you know, investment, their investment, metaphorically speaking. And, and I think that he just, you know, he is a die hard wrestling fan old school wrestling, old school wrestling fan, who enjoys, you know, that stuff in Japan enjoys going to Indy shows when he when he goes out to show enjoys that sort of, like, you know, PWG content in a way because it's something that WB doesn't provide can speak in personal experience to like WW awesome. But it it does start to feel like a job. At some point watching, you know, eight hours of content a week, then pay per view on the side. Yeah. And, and you can understand why someone would would get excited about about. You know, different kind of a different interrelation of pro wrestling, but no, but, but melter is I I've not talked to him. And I mean, don't know. But, but, you know, it seems clear that he's that he's on good terms with the young books with Cody Rhodes with, you know, some other people who are involved with the with e w and, and, you know, I don't know how much it moves the needle for him to be really invested in it. But it certainly seems like his discussions of aid of you on his podcast and stuff like that are, or what people are very, very interested in, in the pro wrestling, you know, it's in Israel, so yeah. Feel like I think he's spiritual involved because I think Tony Kahn seems like somebody who probably had the Meltzer newsletter since he was like nine years, or sure. Yeah. And a lot of what this idea has been as probably like, what if how do we how do we take all the stuff happened in Japan and have it here and how to wrestlers and it's all smart and for Meltzer? And, you know, there's he's not the only person out there on that be, you know, Mike Johnson there's, there's a bunch of people who do this, but. For, for people who are the real reporters in the wrestling business. This is this is more exciting for them than it is for us fans. Because they get to actually like report on people like on contract situations. Again, they get to the business side is, is what I mean. And I've talked about this, too WBZ has these two brands they have, they've had drafts. They have, you know, shakeups if everything else, and they've totally missed out on actually like doing with the MO replicating, the fun, part of professional sports these days, which is the off season. Trae now we have the off, now we have it, you know, I mean, that's going to be an an and just like with Peress link off seasons. Never ending because all these contracts come up with different time. So, you know that that's going to be a really, really intriguing thing. And I don't mean to and not just to make light of it in terms of our enjoyment of it. But this is huge for for, for the power of the wrestlers right for the for the bargaining power for them for their for their personal well-being. Finally, they can go, you know, when the contract comes up, it's not just I sign whatever the McMahon's put in front of me. It's like I can go to them and say. Say you know, I got another offer, I'm willing to, to entertain other offers. And that's a that's a game changer, especially for people who CW signing billion dollars worth of billions of dollars TV contract. And none of it's trickling down our little of its trickling down. We really big deal. Yeah. You left that one piece, the guy who has eight months left or the girl who can use that last eight months as levers, like all right? If you want to stay like I'd like this, this or this to happen is not gonna happen. I'm not gonna stay so just, you know it's almost like an MBA player heading into the February trade deadline, I gonna trade for some help, or this is just can be my team. The next five months out is all right. Well, I'm gonna leave them, but I think, you know, somebody like Sasha banks who I agree with you that one of the wasted talents of the last five years for what I thought her potential was with them. I don't know if you can waste the talent like that in the same way because she can. Just leave in really come back to haunt aunt, you which goes back to my initial point. I think this is weirdly good for the w I think it's good to have competition. I think it's good to have somebody keeping you on your toes. I totally agree in WB Wednesday. I mean listen. They like to position the Monday night war is kind of fight for their extension existence, and it was, you know, in financial ways, and everything else. But, but, you know if they can see past just the, you know, feeling that they need to destroy kill the kill Awa. And it's crib or whatever then they then than they, they hopefully will come to the realization to the competition is good because they haven't been able to provide that for themselves, no matter how hard they've tried. Where do you think my son ends up AWS dub, w if you had to handicap right now, you figure like this is nine years away now? He's twenty he's probably in here. I think it's I mean listen. Your son is your son. You know is going to is grown up with can continue to grow with some level of privilege in one of those is that he has been the performance center and make a phone call. He could probably show up with the performance at her to start training like a week. But, but so I mean so that the, the pipeline the WB pipeline seems like the real likelihood, but that said, if he does anything else with his life and just decided to start, you know, Indy wrestling on the side or something like that, Awa could be if he if he if you, if you make them go to college. Search just like training gym training at a wrestling gym at night, that could Awa might might be the leader in the clubhouse. I don't know true or false. He asked us to buy a wrestling ring for his his birthday last November and actual wrestling ring to put in on the basketball and the little half basketball court, we have in the backyard that he priced them. He looked. He looked. Them up. There's companies that make wrestling rings. He's like, what about this one? It's not that big like not ironically, he's really like no, no, this could fit. I did the measurements. So that happened. We bought them, we bought him, this really cold trampling that I've, I've put a couple Instagram videos on that has a basketball hoop. And he's been on there all the time. And he really is turning into like Ray mysterious on the trampoline. So I don't know what to expect anymore. He's all muscle now and it's like all off his all of the choices that his making just point toward a wrestling lifestyle. So I don't know w start scouting them. You just gotta keep him to keep him you know, zoned in on the pro wrestling as he gets older. You know, going to be some point where he gets more obsessed with girls, or with baseball or whatever else you got to. Two girls. It doesn't have to be number one. Right. It has to be there in the top five somewhere. Yeah. And I, I been working. Out, like he's I dunno. He's doing pushups. Now, I don't know what do you think it's great year round? The psychopath, I think just more traveling time is really only needs time get some ropes in there. You know, we'll make ropes that's what he needs. The funny thing is I remember watching the MRs real world season. And he really you know, he, he really wanted to be a wrestler, and had this whole character. And it was like, wow, this guy's pretty good at this, but that he actually gave a wrestler, now he's I would say, what are their best eight stars? So who knows? It's, it's wild. I thought you know on the real world. I thought it was a joke. I was watching it in real time to I was just like this guy's making a mockery of the pseudo sports that I love ran for the first ten years of his career, the MS was that guy. The MS was a professional wrestler, but he was you look like a guy who was pretending to be a professional wrestler, and he is turned into. Yeah. One of the top guys in the sport in the business. And, and, you know, I think he's a real, he's, he's a model for people that, that grew up watching it. But listen, the coolest thing about progressing right now is that almost all of the top stars are not football players who blew out their knees. You know they're not they're not. They're not, you know, bouncers who are who some, you know, strip club bouncers, who dusty Rhodes point out and said come down to the office and I'll give you a single. It there. Guys. You grew up guys and girls who grew up watching wrestling, and dreaming of being wrestlers. Everybody on the roster has a picture of them posing with Jake the snake Roberts when they were a little kid or whatever, you know, like they were all fans and, and there's nothing really that should that should amount to this. Great new glory day of, you know wonderful era of pro wrestling with own these fans and brilliant minds. And instead, you know, it hasn't quite gotten there yet, maybe a w a wrestler. I mean a wrestling promotion, it's going to be, you know, sort of like by the wrestlers for the wrestlers in also for fans to may, maybe, maybe that'll be the platform for, for people like that to really flourish. Will they have three more pay per view? The summer it looks like, yeah, I know this, because my son looked them up, and then you show them to me. There's three more coming. Yeah, it looks like the TV show, whatever incarnation, whether it's weekly or by wake who, whatever it is a looks like that's going to be in the fall. So we'll see. And we'll see who jumps whose contracts are up. I'm exam like you, I'm excited. It's going to be like July first NBA where can be rumors every week about this person might go that person, you had to pick to be my last question to go to people that you think could jump who the to be. Oh, god. That's really hard. I have no idea. I mean, I, I have to go in and try to figure out when everybody's contract is up. I mean Sasha Bank said the problem of just signing the contract in not too long ago. And that's why she's in this really weird this really weird nether world right now that like you can't just walk away trae. At least you can't walk away. You can't walk away to, to wrestle for somebody else, you could rock walkaway from most other career paths. The man, I, I don't know. I think the revival is done deal. You know, I mean, someone like Lou Carper has, I think another nine months or something, they're gonna tag on some extra time to that. To to his contract, and, and you know, but those are those the names that people have talked about a lot. I think if you wanna cert- speculating about people who would, you know, if every if everybody was a free agent who you know, who is who hasn't reached their potential, who could be really great outside of WWE some O Joe, you mentioned. I think fin Ballard is a name that you have these conversations in on that one and then you go down. Look at, and t where there's, you know, I mean some of the, the, the biggest names that the big stars that have come through there. Have a legitimate like size disadvantage and WWE undisputed air is not gonna look that not gonna look normal Ginana look as big as the as they do in next. When they get to the main roster, they would be a really cool editions. They of those guys are supremely talented every in every way and yet I mean, and, and there's just this laundry list of tag teams to, I mean AWS really focusing on this stuff. But man, I mean just look at the what they're calling the Vikings -perience now have been absent from TV for three weeks or two weeks, or something like that, who son is so upset about this. This is one of his favorite annex, t people. The war raiders annex t. Yeah, they were they he loved the war chant. And they came the WT e in what did they change their name like three different times the way they were, they were war-machine on the Indies. They change them to the to the war, raiders, NFC. And then when they got called up, they were the Viking experience. And then after that was just summarily like laughed off the internet to the Viking raiders. Men's McMahon apparently was very concerned that, that people would have trouble discerning. These two guys with, like Braveheart face paint and horns, and you know leather leather sing. I mean leather loincloth there, he he, they're gonna have trouble realizing we're supposed to be Viking, so they changed their name to the Viking experience. It's always good to take somebody that had a great gimmick that fans responded to and then just completely changed the gimmick and the name like now that our to do it this way that always goes over great people love that. Yeah. People love when things get changed that they let. Yeah. Yeah. So hopefully I mean and that all goes back to two dean Umbro's aka John Moxley's, you know, issues with WWE in Doda be creative, and that's the they play, you know, the, the wrestler weren't given enough volition. You know, they're ninety on the chance to be creative, and to be the stars that they sort of made themselves into, and, and, you know, hopefully, WWE will realize that, that's you know, a problem they need to fix it on their own and clearly w is going to be giving people the opportunity to, you know, be their best selves release for now seems that way. Well, good luck Tate, w I love the competition. Kevin Jones is another name. I think could be a good aid. He just signed a five-year deal. So he, he I mean, and I think that he's, you know, in a lot of ways, he's a he's really important cog. And WB knows that I don't I don't think that he would be he would be a great. He knows that except he lost, like one hundred and eighty matches last year. Well, yeah, the head who's the one who posts, the win loss records there Kevin was like the one eighty five. Or something? Crazy bad records. Like, wow, this guy's another name to look at his Rousseff that guy is in crediting can be like that guy could be a conquering monster and all the new Japan. He could do a lot of thing. He's a guy that Rousseff he's, he's. He doesn't really have the Russian accent in real life. Well. Well, he has an accent. It's just not. It's Shen in tasha shoemaker. This was this was wonderful. Good luck with the press box. Keep an is speaking of moving things, keep it the press box. Keep buying we're, we're, we're gonna try some new stuff out. Yeah. Have we're up to stuff with the press box. All right. Cool hope all is new all. Well, with the with the famine everything talk to talk to you, man. Thanks. All right. Thanks to design. Don't forget about Joshua this weekend. The big fight still time to get it. I use good at DAV dot com. Sign up get some heavyweight title box in this weekend. Thanks to fruit Aloom cool zone fly. Boxer briefs life is better with Vance especially in your unaware. They're designed with ventilated mesh viable as airflow wherever you needed most. Check out fruit dot com to find your next pair use the code Bill. Get an additional ten percent off their current promotion of twenty percent off the cool zone fly boxer briefs. That is fruit dot com promo code bail. We are back maybe Sunday night. Haven't decided yet it depends how good game two is Kyle does want us to be back on Sunday. I'm Fordham of for the lemme maybe Craig would wanna works on. I'm sleeping over on Saturday night. That's how much I want to be sleeping over my God. We'll see how game we'll see. We'll see how we feel about the game too. But might be might be doing the pot on Sunday night, or Monday morning. We'll see chaos three days. Talk beyond enjoy the weekend. And and we'll see next week.