3 Episode results for "David Painter"
Episode 256 (2021) David Paynter On How The Circular Economy Strengthen Communities
"Thanks for joining impact boom on this episode. Two this is where social enterprises wixom. Well because you can actually use the funding which is generated through that business to power a community project or some other initiative which is doing good in the world. Welcome to impact firm at all. We searched the globe. Should find the people stories ideas and inspiration to help you create maximum each week. Impact boom brings. You thought provoking these with world-leading petitions passionate about creating positive social change these designers social entrepreneurs educators. Innovators thinkers and doers. Shed their projects initiatives thoughts and insights on creating a better world. You can find all the stories links and other great content at impact all follow us on facebook with the latest updates or surprised the newsletter. Or james thanks for listening to episode three hundred six impact. Burn my name's tim allen and i'm passionate bring you. The latest interviews insights abuse create positive social impact. That i was speaking with david painter. David painter is the phantom of the gold coast to library. I start up in the community. Sharing platform sprites frustrated and deeply saddened by western societies over consumptive habits far mental destruction ever-growing catastrophe david called on his experience working the charity. And not the property sector and sort out a way to provide a tangible harass fruits working example anyone can reduce their impact on the planet spun out raisel embracing two of the secular economies business principles of sharing platforms product life extension. He engaged with the local community to seek you in bantry autumn's gather a volunteer team and launched the gulf coast. I two library clever with other lending libraries around the country and internationally. David's i is to assist others on a similar startup jenny and help replicate the larvae mortal in any community that designs that own library of things. So today's podcast. We'll discuss david's journey in leading the gulf coast to library and the lessons that he's learned along the way we'll get david's advice about getting projects off the ground. Establishing a social enterprise in the sharing and sector economies. And we'll also. Here's some great insights and tips from david about sustaining community driven initiative. So david thanks very much for joining us. Tom wonderful here. Thank you so. David look to kick things off. Let's talk a little bit about your background. And what led you down the path of social enterprise and in particular passion for the sector economy. I've always had a strong connection to nature and the natural cycles that existing in niger's everything nitrates is secular design year. There's no such thing as why speed night ship whilst is constructive man we invented. Waste something you do not something that is so. There's a lot that we can learn from the natural cycles of nitrogen by mimicry so connecting with niger also did a lot of orienteering and environmental projects through the years that i was lucky enough to see presentation by professor will steffen talk on planetary boundaries in something really just click today and it was like why don't we all up writing from this mindset. Then i discovered the stage as new incidental development goals and that is such a good framework too much of your projects and we are operating from some good way to sort of explain to people to about what's going on yes in started to sort of explore cessation equity in the triple bottom line and just how money as a force for good is so powerful in what we can do as consumers and as business or the choice of how we run out businesses and what we do with our money. How can change systems much faster than than. What a governmental or. You're you're like original council. I did a stint waking for us charities. Exploring social justice issues they binge fortunate enough to make janey and actually mars corey early last year. Did they astray day. Sacred master class connected with. Qc queen sensational enjoys counselor now. Local chapter that here on the on the gulf coast so things that being inspired by many people around me running social enterprises will sake laconically principles in net business lanny everyday and so that sort of inspired me that i work to do something that i can help show at local community that these tangible steps at anybody can take. It's not difficult and together. We can only make changes and helped laid out. Will it applies russell to joy absolutely so tell us a little bit more about the gold coast to lobby. They like what is it. How does it operate and one of the aims. So as the nice yes we wear a lottery. Awesome quarter a library of things so we operate sign. Wise blamed aubrey but we lamed and tools power tools. We also lead. What sporting goods camping game musical instruments selling machine and some of those really useful sort of household items things that you only occasionally news but when you donate them use food dehydrate or bread maker other types of things at six really well in a library infantry so our premise there is to pull the community's resources in a central hub where people can draw on them in borrow what they need when they need it rather than everybody having to have ownership of all these things because everything we can soon as we know has an energy associated with dig materials resuls they out of the ground we down traits. We buy packaging ship from around the world so the energy accrued from everything that we honored and in lots of situations. It doesn't get used very often. It just sits now caldo garage gathering dostal we. The next new light immortal. So is the environmental benefits by cutting back on our over consumption cause as a society wisden world especially here in australia of everyone in the will live like we lived in australia. Tixx four point two s to sustain us how over consumption habits are pushing postulates the exit or planetary boundaries. And we are heading for a future that is not very enjoyable if we continue our current trajectory pull those resources back on our consumption but we can still have the enjoyment and the access to the things we need but only when we meet them and the other part of elk goals which is very important to us is are a lot of people in our communities who simply just cannot afford to purchase these consumer goods in these items that i would like to have but for the minimal cost a library membership. They can come in and borrow five autumn's every week and are not locked out by the simple fact of thing lacking indulgence. So there's a sort of sick social equity around a resources that people who may not necessarily to by these they can still. Are the family. Change some camping gear in ford from a big family holiday here and the next week that can borrow the machine age. Repay the kids school clothes and then the falling wait. I could come up with something else. So money shouldn't be an object to us as a community having access to resources so that to the biggest sort of goals that we hope to achieve this community platform david. We met a solid few years ago now and at that stage. You're really about those initial planning stages of pulling this to lobby together. And it has been real inspiration to what she really push through a bunch of boundaries and walls to to get where you are today from your experience. What do you believe other fundamental ingredients for this long term success when running a community driven project. I would say you need support from you and this podcast has been an installation on listening to what you have to sign also listening to gripe people. You have on your podcast. We need the help from many people. You can't do all of this. You sold so. I would say gather i strong community in network around you. A lot of collaboration is required quite often. So we've in community projects. It's not like a business like you. Not in competition with him said the more you can gather collect support from others who have may be further along that journey than yourself being and done that. Gather some mentors get support from community members around you like businesses and we need support from all three levels of government it local council level by potentially have this spice economic rights. If you're fortunate enough one of the many few that do and we need the support from the state and federal your bigger funding grants and instead of finances. They also policy social procurement. And things like that. That is obviously a fundamental agreement. So these community projects. And there's a lot of ingenuity you can go into. The crab. funding was a great success for us beginning with needed to rise the money from scratch to get insurance public ability. Insurances volunteered shoes before we could actually start writing to this social enterprises wick so well because you can actually utilize the funding which generated through that business to pal a community project or some other initiative. Which is doing good in the world year. I'd also say unita. Healthy choices stubbornness did of acid stoic. It's a rollercoaster lied. And when you're up. European universe likes the lichen. All these wonderful things come slowing to then you dog on the other side and hit that autumn university to could spy into keep kicking you and you'd have been stoic. Helped pull yourself together and you chain around you help pick you up and get you going in. You put your hand up wants it. I'm gonna do this. The police together and gagging into that. And that's where a really good team collaboration of people around you. So the people would in that team comply to their strengths. Because you can't do everything even though you might have to wear many hats you can't do everything to call yourself so good team around. You is definitely what i would. Say is the biggest requirement to mike's these types of projects sustainable long term. You mean absolutely and some great advice and you talk about these low lows and the ability to push past them so personally speaking name. What have been some of the greatest challenges in setting up the gulf coast to library and have you worked ran. Probably al biggest challenge and it's challenge for many other law as well is is finding the spice to operate from. We can't afford commercial rent and so we need to be finding his fights on the pinnacle lease or collaborating sharing with with someone else awning spice fos who's been extremely challenging at pretty much exhausted all avenues through council. There's thirty forty community great. Cue for every councils fights it's available so bitched out to the private sector saw. That scott's baby any solution excuse in the in the short term so i just tried to and so areas of places that would be able and just call cold just went in the door. Niche juice muscle. I got a lot of a lot of others but a lot of feedback of. Hey that sounds like a great idea and we see the best of luck so kind of keeps you going eventually knock on the right number of doors and someone sort of new fallen someone who agrees with what you're doing in launch with what you're doing and we started to find that there was a couple of by contingencies. Starting to appear because of covid travel agents things like that where they doors so we actually million which we spices from non nearly had to sign toy retail establishments but had some concise in a real estate agent at a bit of spice adjoining their tenancy and in this real estate agent. Really zuber body. What we're all about so we're very fortunate now to have a pop up space available so eight at the corner which is the greatest thing we need to make this sort of community. Not the play. Opens with finances are obviously great challenge as i mentioned the crabs funding all and sort of eating the community together was l. y. the startup and get functioning which was an essential probably the other set of challenges and this is not unique to us. It's across the board in not for profits. Volunteer charities faces awning the ongoing volunteers to sue wells. You need. There's been a bit of shifted and training volunteering to sit of what chunking with people looked. Come along and they like to volunteer at an angel project and then move onto something else in trying to find those long term volunteers ashley ward level with the skill sets that she made. That is a little bit of a challenge. Spent nothing that's unique to us but on the other hand donations of audiences not being promote the community has been extremely coming. Every single often in the industry is painted by the community and those donations flowing in. So we've got some great gear lottery now and we'll come from the general the of the local community. it's fantastic. So what do you think needs to be done to help. Accelerate this sharing economy movement and basically get mainstream society to move from this linear to secular economy. This sharing economy movement is definitely gaining strain in lots of different areas. You gotta get community volume. I think that's the fisting and the needs to be a trust. Trust around the quality of what is there to be to be because everybody has like i buy element. Look after the next time. I use it native. I know where it is macabre to my garage and i know the quality sets so that needs to be not think also to the offering. It needs to be better than what's currently there because people to shift got awesome. Something that's that's better than what they're doing and that can be. It could be more efficient or the sharing action could be more flexible. It could be easier. Could be better. Value is more environmental benefits and especially with the younger generations are looking to see conscious companies in purpose behind your business and where your money. Where their money that they are paying. You is going and i think to. They can't be a little bit of a stigma or belief. That borrowing is the coleman's auction and we need to move past that it might have comfortable the days where people quarterbacks because if you were wealthy you had a car really wealthy. You had a short drive your car. So it's shifting that mindset that sharing is actually a good thing to do. It's great for him bar. It's great rail community cohesion and networking and the ability to share resources in the future. It's just that shift of mindset. I think a wife from on they'd own everything so it's okay to collaborate and share resources and i think it's a mighty it's a little bit of a generational shift soros. We go back to our grandparents. Great grandparents that was noble. We've gone through. Maybe the baby boomer and muscles a charter baby. We'd had that society where we had to own every single. We had to buy society where is based on how many goodies and automatically headed. Now is asians and it's shifting nothing as the generation is as we moved and as al jimbo easing become older and become more mainstream decision making processes. We'll find that it naturally sort of flows through this ingrate inside their david. Thanks for sharing that. So moving on a little bit. Some other inspiring projects or initiatives. Which ones have you come across recently which at creating some really positive social change probably on the same theme of of waste diversion which which is a passion of mine. World's biggest garage sil- yes lee goner wasn't in the team. They're increasing have been doing some amazing things in what reactivating dorman would seem their sacred economic praising. Doug wonderful partnership they with one of the major chains on stationery office goods and keeping auden's added lanes and getting back into the into the societies use and up johnson great went through coded there to where a lot of other businesses lipids sort of winding down the offense kyle and now employing quite a number of young people who with potentially struggling and finding their place in the world and opposite of really doing well with that group of young people and yes and the same thing really inspiring to me up and allah one side louis. Garbage aaron brisbane yay dalvin intercepting industrial discounts in high quality waste. So what is one. Person's waist is actually proving to be a resource other people native some really good stuff with education especially in early education to explain the concept. What is waste. where's council on. Why do we have a pack and we not have waste by. The kids are absolutely. I think that's like twenty orgies that they already narrow worker on doing some really really good at in this. That's a couple of community organizations. That i really sort of data with an i found during sparring on on my wonderful so to finish off david. Tell about some inspiring books or web pages or blogs that you'd recommend to our listeners. Yeah i tend to bats of it different paces bedside silent. Mike out. Is the bookies. Our drawdown paul. Bobby beijing with that one. That's a really good book because you can just pick it up in some through just pick out a section and read about treason and skiable wyking examples of how we can really make a difference. In scaling-back back missions social equity justice vomit or benefits. Amazing good solution. So if you feel a little bit there you can pick that up a raid and feel good about also abilities in the world. In starting to explore kate ray worth on economics noon because that picks up the whole land boundaries and also the whole social and economic payton. Yeah there's some really really good things there. it's probably. This is what. I needed twenty odd years ago when economics professor at university would be frustrated when i was asking the questions because i didn't have the terminology beck into. It's explain what i was trying to get at this great stuff there in her workers there absolutely is this book. Says thanks for sharing those but informally thanks to you the sharing your generous thoughts and times that i best of luck in your almost journey with the gulf coast. Thank you very much. Thanks for listening to impact. Burn your foreign links to the initiatives people and raisel has mentioned in this podcast on important or please leave comments beloit and remember. We'll be publishing thresholds insights help. You create positive impact every week on the website. 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The Evolution of All-American Terrorism
"So, before we get started I, want to tell you about a podcast. It's very close to my heart. It's the moth chew. Stories told to a live audience chew stories, but also deeply personal ones I know because I've been on that stage this summer. They've got something new. It's called all together now. Friday with the moth. Is designed to help. All of us feel more connected during this pandemic, the podcast feature stories that are appropriate for all ears. You can listen with friends roommates. Kids even grandma altogether now. Fridays with the moth drops his new episode every Friday from now until September catch it ever you get your podcast. Reveal is supported by ever lane. When you're staying at home for an extended period of time, twenty four seven pajamas just won't cut it. Look and feel great at home with their comfortable affordable modern basics like the organic cotton crew, t shirt, and perform leading and right now they're popular. One hundred percent human collection is donating all proceeds to feeding America's covid nineteen. Response Fund check out our collection at ever leaned dot com slash reveal, plus you'll get free shipping on your first order. That's ever lean dot com slash reveal ever lane dot com slash reveal. From the Center for investigative reporting and PR X. VIS is reveal. I'm outlets. Over the past month protests have helped. Give unprecedented. To the issue of police brutality, but right wing extremists are also trying to seize the moment at black lives. Matter Rally in Richmond Virginia, a man, claiming to be a K. K.. K. leader drove his truck into a group of protesters. In Oakland California man, who follows the online bigalow movement, allegedly shot and killed federal officer. They want to kick off chaos. They want to start the race war, and so they're always waiting for some chaotic events to happen. That will help them. Kick this off. Megan Squire is a computer scientist who studies online extremism at Ilan University in North Carolina. She seen firsthand how the recent wave of protests and counter protests can get out of control. Control so one protesting the removal of confederate monuments recently punched her in the face Megan says right wing extremists are using what's in the news to spread their message. They tracked pretty closely to whatever the news headlines are, and what they do is provide the racist anti-semitic. Fill in the blank spin on that news. All of these blue systems are like big funnels. They have a variety of ways of recruiting people into them. That's David. Reporter with the nonprofit newsroom type investigations a few years ago, revealed teamed up with type two track every single domestic terror event from two thousand eight to twenty sixteen. It showed that law enforcement was focused on extremist acting in the name of Islam, but homegrown right wing terror was a bigger threat by nearly two to one margin. We're trying to make the point that really. Rightwing extremism is much bigger problem than Islamist extremism and the government needs to be paying attention to now. We've updated the database to include a tax from twenty seventeen to twenty nineteen. We found that white extremist terror has grown and become more lethal responsible for almost the same number of deaths during the first three years of the trump presidency as during all of the Obama years. And the right wing extremists appear to target different groups. Many are driven by the same ideology. There's a very specific stripe of white nationalism that were seen run through especially these more recent mass killings today we're going to connect the DOTS and show how one act of tear inspires another thanks to online platforms, and we'll ask why law enforcement is still struggling to catch up. Reveal reporters Stan Cornyn Priska neely have been digging into this for months. PRISCO STARTS US off with the story of a man who witnessed the deadliest domestic terror attack from last year. Guillermo Glenn is well known in El Paso's Mexican American community. He's seventy nine now, and he's been a community organizer and labor rights activist for most of his life. We conducted a of protests. We blocked the bridge. We went to jail on August third twenty nineteen. He was just going about his weekend routine. It was a Saturday morning. Right in around ten o'clock so. Go to Walmart to buy some pet food and I was way in the back and I heard his great big noise. A warning gamma was going to share graphic details about what happened that day. A large number of families, women and men were running towards me from the front of the building. And I noticed at least one of the women was dripping blood as it well, there's something really wrong. I ran into the woman who is she had both her legs had received some type of this shrapnel or bullet wounds, and she was bleeding, so I stopped. There to help her in by grabbed the. Prostate, kit and try to. Tend to her wounds legs. One of the firemen paramedics came and you. You have to get her out. We're getting everybody out of the store. So. We put her in in one of those grocery baskets. When he wheeled the woman to the front, he saw what had happened. Right at the front door, there was a lot of blood. I knew then that they've been a shooter. It was a very dramatic scene. I saw the body of a man with. Half his head shot off. There was a lady lane on the payment across from where we're loading the people. XACTLY! who had taken out loans. I did how that information that he was actually shooting Mexicans. The suspected gunman, twenty one year, old Patrick crews drove roughly ten hours from outside Dallas to the El Paso Walmart right near the Mexican border police say he opened fire. Twenty three people were killed and many were wounded. And then he drove off minutes later Patrick crucial stopped his car at an intersection near the Walmart, he came out with his hands, raised in the air, and stated out loud to the Texas Rangers. I'm the shooter. He's facing ninety federal charges including forty five heat crimes. After Ghirma witness what happened that day he got in his car and went to the restaurant where his friends always gather on Saturdays several. My friends came and hug me and say Oh, you're okay. We're so glad we've been looking for you without. Doing might be there. And then they showed me the manifesto. The manifesto minutes before the attack, the shooter at posted a document filled with anti immigrant rhetoric to the online message board eight Chan some of gear. Most friends showed him a copy, so I sit down. I had some food at some my regular Saturday menudo. And, then I finally realized what had happened right after I read the manifesto. Crucial manifesto reads kind of like a corporate website. It has an about me section and parts where he outlines his warped vision for America. He matter of factly explains how his attack will preserve a world where white people have the political and economic power. He says peaceful means will no longer achieve his goal. Reporter David were says this alleged shooter is the quintessential trump era terrorist. A man largely radicalized online entrenched in white nationalist ideology and fueled by the belief that white men like himself are being replaced by Latino immigrants crucial wrote that the media would blame president trump for inspiring him, but he claimed that his ideas predated the trump campaign. Here's David Painter. Crucial especially was so filled with loathing for Latino people that he didn't see them as human. When David reads the manifesto, he can immediately see the fingerprints of other white nationalists. Here's have crusius opens his manifesto. In general I support the Christ church shooter and his manifesto. This attack is a response to the Hispanic invasion of Texas. They are the instigators, not me. I am simply defending my country from cultural and ethnic replacement brought on by an invasion that opening line is a direct signal back to a previous act of terrorism. The shooter who killed fifty one people at two mosques in Christchurch New Zealand just months before. David says this is part of a trend. One terrorist inspires another and the cycle continues. Gear Mo says he didn't understand all of the references at first, but it was clear to him that the manifesto had ties to a larger movement. I think he was trying to show that somebody had to take action in. That really angered me at that point. In Hawaii, would somebody come in shoot? Innocent people like that. David says crew started doing online research because of the anger. He felt over how the country was changing demographically. Doing this research. He came across. Multiple quite genocide theories including the great replacement. Great Replacement or replacement theory unites many acts of hate that we see across the country around the world, and that's this idea that comes out of nationalism. That white Europeans face a global genocide at the hands of Brown people and that they're being slowly rubbed out of existence. Only a few terrorists in recent years have referenced replacement theory by name, but it's widely popular among right wing extremists. It's linked to ideas that are many decades old, but one attack in Europe showed how those ideas can be weaponized. Andres brave ix terrorism attack in Oslo a new Toy Island Norway. In Two thousand eleven. Bribery killed seventy seven people in a bombing in mass shooting. Before the attack, he sent out a fifteen hundred page manifesto about how he planned to lead white supremacists on a crusade against the quote, Islamic vacation of Europe. Around the same time, a French writer named Renaud Camus refined and popularized the ideology in a book. The title translates to the Great Replacement and the Great Replacement Essentially Society. That Brown people, particularly refugees and immigrants from Arab countries in Europe are being deliberately brought into the country in order to replace white people as the chief demographics and the conspiracy theory claims all this is orchestrated by Kabbalah of nefarious globalists'. That's code for Jews, not replace. In August. Twenty seventeen white supremacists in the US took up this concept as a rallying cry at the unite the right rally in Charlottesville Virginia. The next day a neo. Nazi drove his car into a crowd. And thirty two year old heather. Higher This incident had an immediate impact on the public perception of terrorism, making it clear that white nationalist violence is a serious threat today. The nightmares hit home here in the city of Pittsburgh. At a Pittsburgh Synagogue in two thousand eighteen Robert Bowers is accused of killing eleven people. He went to a Jewish synagogue because he was angry about the latin-american Caravans, the caravans had been in all the news in the weeks prior to that synagogue attack, you know. He blamed Jews and went to drew synagogue to take revenge for Latino Immigration. These are the ideologies that are sick zagging across the globe. In March twenty nineteen, but gunmen who live streamed his mass shooting in Christ's Church New Zealand on facebook also wrote a manifesto. The title. The great replacement. The New Zealand Manifesto inspired the El Paso shooter to target the people he felt were replacing him. Recent manifestos and books put a new spin on violent hateful acts, but David traces these sentiments back much further. What's remarkable in a Lotta ways when I read, these manifestos is so many of them are expressing ideas that I read in the nineteen twenty s coming from Genesis. Look I would even take back to the eighteen ninety S. When I started seeing the wave of Lynch scenes in the south as a form of social control, this is very clearly a form of terrorism. After the El Paso shooting activist skier Glenn Says White. Supremacist ideology was barely part of the conversation. There were brief efforts to unite the community against hate. A few events held under the banner. El Paso strong the politicians, the businessmen the mayor. Everybody was pushing this idea that we address survive. But they weren't really talking about who caused it. Or why. Before. We talked for this story Guillermo says he didn't identify as part of this larger group of survivors that includes Jewish and Muslim communities. You know you say well, it's. It's the Jewish people that they attacked. It's the Muslim people that attacked. And you're on the border Mexican and Central Americans. But nobody talks about what does the great replacement mean? Nobody put all these incidences together and say hey. This is something that we should be aware of nationally. And he says that's part of the failure. Heart of the reason, these attacks keep happening. That story from reveals Friskin neely. As. We've been saying these extremist groups are using online communities to spread their messages and find new recruits. When we come back, we'll hear how it works. It's a conditioning process. It's a grooming process, and I let myself fall into that. The evolution of the White Supremacist Internet next on reveal. Reveal is supported by true botanical 's. Life is full of tough choices and tradeoffs. Your beauty routine what you put on your body. Every day shouldn't be one of them. True. Botanical 's uses the latest scientific advances and centuries old botanical extracts to create all natural formulas and their products like they're hydrating face, cleansers and face oils for aging breakout, prone and sensitive skin and nutrient packed to serum. You've got to try true tentacles for yourself. Get fifteen percent off your first purchase at true panicles dot com slash reveal. That's true. Botanical Garden Com slash reveal. From, the Center for investigative reporting NPR x this is reveal I'm alison. The FBI and academic researchers say there's no such thing as a terrorist profile. You can't tell who's going to become terrorists with a personality tests or demographic checklist. But the young white men who attacked the synagogues of Pittsburgh and Powei and the Walmart. No Paso. They had a lot in common, not only were they motivated by the same conspiracy theory about why people being replaced, they developed those ideas in some of the same spaces online to them, even posted their manifestos to the same website. Now. You can't blame today's white supremacist terrorism on the Internet, but you also can't understand it without talking about the way. The White Supremacist Movement uses the Internet and how that's changed over the last decade. Reveals. Stan alcorn is going to tell that story through the eyes of a man who lived it here, stand. Josh Bates Decade as a white supremacist started in his mid twenty s with a youtube video about the presidential candidate. He says he supported at the time Iraq, Obama. I was scrolling through the comments section. You know he's a Muslim. He wasn't or year. Things of that nature at somebody said you guys sound like those storm front assholes. The world's storm from. Storm Front is a message board that a former KKK leader set up in the nineties. Josh says he went there at first because he was curious than to argue. But then the middle aged message board neo. Started winning him over. How could they be convincing in these arguments like? Can you help me understand that? I wish I can answer that question. Is still ask myself that allow I ended up falling for something like that, but I guess. Similar to how we look at people who fall into calls, you know it's a conditioning process. It's a grooming process and I. Let Myself Fall into that. The experts I talked to say that first step is more about the person than what they're stepping into. Josh had just left the Marines. Where used to have a team and the mission. Now all we had was computer. It's pretty concurrent with a whole lot of people where they felt really deeply disempowered in their lives Shimin Martinez is a former white supremacist who helped people including Josh. Leave the movement, and so when you encounter information that's presented that this is like the real truth, the true truth people don't want you to have because if you did, it would be to empowering for you and to disempowering for them like. Like. That's an incredibly powerful like toxic drug. That drug widely available on the Internet is at its heart, a conspiracy theory. It says your problems aren't your fault. It's immigrants Black People Jews they talk about Oh no Hollywood and the media all these Jews there in these positions of power, and you know when you google that kind of stuff you see, and you consume it eventually after a few months. Kinda get desensitized to it and everybody's agreeing with everyone for the most part you you get along. There's online community. Star was Kinda my first one. He didn't know their names, but they were his team. Now it's been the next ten years as what he calls a keyboard warrior for the white. Supremacist, movement, he'd be there for every step in its evolution from joining the K. k. k. and the Neo Nazi National Socialist Movement to more diffuse groups and websites that called themselves all right and identity -Tarian Some of these groups would go to some lengths to appear respectable and say we're not racist. We're not Nazis. We're not the KKK. And then some of those groups were Nazis. They were the K. k. k. and you were in all of them. Does that tell you that? The differences between these groups are more about that image and the tactics than absolutely the core ideas, or they attract? Absolutely, we've been using the terms white nationalism, onepointoh nationalism, two point Oh for a few years now and one point Oh is your. Early Groups Cook clan. They're very explicit associates. Movement waterhouse, whilst goes on their uniforms under flaxen. Your two point Oh guys. They're your identity. Oba's where dressing in. Khakis. Collared Shirts doc shoes. They got these nice cropped haircuts. They call it good optics. Anybody, who was in the early one point? Oh movements like myself I can see right through. They just put lipstick on a pig solid. But people who followed the White Supremacist Movement for decades like type investigations reporter David. They say that this all right makeover of the old racist right. It was transformative that radical right was very backward looking jerry stiff and formal. They didn't have any humor was not part of their repertoire. In fact, their primary recruitment demographic really was mandatory in the ages of forty and sixty with the advent of the alright, what we saw was this very tech savvy, very agile movement that instead of running away from sort of the culturally savvy component aspects of the Internet rather embraced them holy instead of writing racist newsletters that people had to sign up for. They were making memes, jokes and places like read it and four Chan and these forums that celebrated being politically incorrect. They're the perfect place for those ideas. Ideas to take root hybridize with other fringe ideas and grow into something that could be shared on more mainstream platforms like twitter and facebook, and it was. You know very brilliant, because it meant that suddenly the recruitment demographic was much larger, and had you know lot more political activists energy They were younger, people and Josh. Bates says that energy got a huge boost in two thousand sixteen with the rise of a new presidential candidate. They're bringing drugs. They bring in crime. Their rapists and some I assume are good people because trump was spouting off a lot of the same talking points as general white nationalist. He breathed new life into that move. And the thought leaders of the movement just took full advantage. Second, take him further and they did. They started to take their ideas into the real world. After trump's election in twenty seventeen computer scientists, Megan Squire setup software to track extremists on facebook. She started out studying the misogynist Gamer Gate Movement, but that it letter to all of these different anti Muslim and neo confederate and white supremacist groups at the time facebook was as central player, if not the central player in It was the place where these guys all wanted to be. Nice looking for Crossover Ideological Crossover Group Membership Crossover. Just, trying to I. Guess map that ecosystem of hate on facebook. She watched this ecosystem plan. What one neo Nazi website would call the summer of hate? Anti Muslim marches, misogynist proud boy rallies, and what was shaping up to be this real world Mita of all these different, mostly online hate groups the unite the right rally in Charlottesville Virginia. And this is where she came across Josh, Bates. There was a person who was talking about. They didn't have enough money to go to Charlottesville. And someone else suggested. Hey, we have this crowd funding site. Why don't you set up a fundraiser when Megan Click link? She saw this whole list of white supremacist fundraisers on a website. Josh had built because go fund me had started cutting them off. It was the beginning of what Megan calls all tech at the time we're talking about. Tech was basically just replacements that were coated and controlled by people, probably in the movement or close to the momentum at least like didn't care about waste practices using their services, so they're replacing Patriot patriotic. It's kind of a one to one match there, but when it came to advertising the rally the outright. Outright didn't need all tech. They had a facebook event page and it was being promoted by hate groups that facebook had allowed to remain on the site even after they were reported by civil rights advocates I. Mean I'm a solo researcher with a laptop in rural North Carolina. And I was able to find well over two thousand hate groups operating on Facebook, and like a couple of months so. I don't have sympathy that facebook in know it was happening. Ray like that's ridiculous. NAGIN decided to go to the rally in person in part to see if this convergence of hate she was seeing on. facebook would happen in real life. Josh Bates. Went for the same reason. Never! History of white nationalism. Many people. All showing up with one place you had. Sam Klamath Roba all these groups all the groups that you've ever been a member of yet pretty much, and when you see that many people show up to support a common cause, it kind of fills you up a little bit with maybe a little enthusiasm. Maybe this isn't die. Maybe this. Maybe this could go forward. That's exactly right I believe that. That's exactly why after shut that stuff. 'CAUSE! This is not the kind of people we need to be amassing power. The rally wasn't shut down. But when it turned violent and a white supremacist killed heather higher reporter David, says this whole plan to unite the racist right backfired. All of these groups started. Splitting is huge infighting over whether they did the right thing, and in fact, the social media platforms. Taking it seriously although. That seriousness varied from platform to platform. Reminded me of Lake, when you. Catch a kid doing something that not supposed to be doing and all of a sudden. They're incredibly sorry. They already did it. You know there wasn't a whole lot of foresight there there. Sorry after the fact. It's a pattern. We've seen over and over in the last few years. A terrorist attack happens the social media platforms. Put out statements, but don't fundamentally change their policies. On Youtube you can still find old video manifestos from right wing domestic terrorists. FACEBOOK didn't ban white nationalist content until a year and a half after Charlottesville. The main step they did take at the time was to remove the accounts of a bunch of individual users and groups, but that means I don't get to just clemens. Okay, we're done here. Good job. They got to platform. Because my job is to worry about where going to go next, you would push them off of platforms like twitter. And just go from create their own new platform. And they called Gab, and it was just straight for white nationalist, and on Gab, for instance that the man who conducted the terrorism act against the tree of life, synagogue did most of his organizing, he networked with other white nationalists, and had a long string of racist and antisemitic posts before his infamous final message. Screw your optics I'm going in. On these alternative platforms vacant talk as though they didn't have to fear sensors or monitors people looking over their shoulders, so they were much more open and explicit about their hateful nece, and not just their hateful, but frankly their lust for violence, the rhetoric became incredibly violent on a lot of these smaller platforms, and this journey, trying to go mainstream only to retreat back to the violent fringe. It's the journey Josh mid to, and that's Kinda trajectory of going from white nationalist, one hundred zero. Two point own and things just from an RPG on ground and finding this thing all the base. The base is a neo-nazi. With an explicit focus on real world violence. The shared bomb making manuals and planned paramilitary trainings to prepare for a coming race war. When news broke that eleven, people had been murdered at the tree of life synagogue. They talked about it in terms of textbooks. Josh wrote in their private chat. Infrastructure is what needs targeting small hits like yesterday's while striking fear into many that only ultimately served to embolden the enemy while they're still strong. Yes the I. Don't even remember say. I guess that goes to show. Those playing a role in assess and. It's just stark latest role and you start getting into. That's the sound of someone who. was enthralled with the idea of being a hero. That's how the whole heroes dynamic works. Is that you are playing a role, you've created this image for yourself of being the hero, and now it's really important for you to live up to it, and this is how. People who've been radicalized can get talked into committing acts of violence is that they feel like they have to? Have to prove that they are the heros. They've made themselves out to be in their own minds. Josh left the basis chat room in November of two thousand eighteen. He says he was turned off by all the glorification of violence. A couple of weeks after that Atlanta anti-fascist published an article exposing his long history in the white supremacist movement, and within days he was tweeting that he was out of the Movement for Good Looking back now I don't see myself staying in movement, no matter. It's just it's tiring. I just don't And obviously everything about his wrong. Ideological racial social since everything for all. Other. Men who stayed in the base would go on to be arrested for vandalizing synagogue. Plotting to murder a couple they believed were ANTIFA activists. And trying to start a civil war, gun rights rally in Virginia. The FBI says the greatest terrorist threat in the United States today comes from what they call lone offenders terrorists who get their radical ideas from online communities who attack without ever coordinating with anyone else in the real world. According to our database. They're responsible for nearly half the terrorist fatalities since trump took office. It's a list that includes the tree of life shooter Robert Bowers the powei synagogue shooter, John Ernest, and the El Paso Walmart shooter Patrick Crushes. A lot of people will be exposed to these same ideas and not respond in a violent way, but it doesn't take very many of them to actually cause a whole lot of harm. For Law enforcement that tricky question here is. How can you tell from what someone says online? They're actually going to commit an act of violence. But for the rest of us, there's a different question. That's maybe even trickier. What do we do when people say things online, that might help push other people to commit acts of violence. Josh, said several times in our interview that over the course of his ten years in the White Supremacist Movement. He only spent a grand total of maybe five days doing things in the real world. His role was setting up websites organizing online and writing propaganda. Like an article, he wrote for alright dot com, where he told his fellow white people to quote rekindle your inner hate, and that an honorable death must be earned. You've talked about this saying you didn't do anything. You were just writing things, but just as you were radicalized through reading things online. So was Robert, bowers so as John Ernest so as Patrick cruces. Isn't writing something doing something, and do you think? What I mean by doing. Something is irl like actually getting to straightness roaming by doing zone. But he's starting to think that distinction doesn't really make a difference. I didn't actually go out getting any street brawl or physically attack anybody, but that's no different than writing something encouraging others to do. You know what I mean. I would have considered myself in a way domestic terrorist because I was out spouting off some of these same ideas. and. Feel so weird to to reference yourself in that. But. To be honest. Things Josh. Did may not meet the FBI or the Department of Justice's definition of terrorism. They didn't even get him kicked off. Social Media. But. He says he'll be making up for them for the rest of his life. That story was from reveals Stan Alcorn. We reached out to facebook for comment. They sent us a statement saying that they don't want to be a place for promoting hate or violence, and that they're making progress. They told us in the first three months of two thousand twenty. They banned more than two hundred fifty white supremacist organizations and removed four point seven million pieces of content tied to organize. We reached up to Youtube and the global Internet form to counter terrorism as well, but they didn't respond. If social media companies aren't stopping white supremacist terrorism. What about the US government? That's after the break on reveal? Hey! This is Al and before we get back to this week's show I. WanNa. Let you know about a story on another podcast this week from reveal reporter Stan alcorn about how white supremacist violence is remembered. In the wake of the killings of George Floyd and Brianna Taylor statues have been coming down across the country statues of confederate generals, but also in Mexico statues of Kista. Standard been reporting on the fight over public monuments in his home state for years and this week or ninety nine percent invisible. He tells the story of how one of these monuments came to be, and what it took to bring it down. You can hear that story starting. Tuesday June thirtieth by subscribing ninety nine percent invisible. Wherever you get your podcast until Roman, I said Hi. From the Center for investigative reporting and P R. X This is reveal I'm outlets in. A year after Josh. Bates left the white supremacist group. The base, another member of the organization shot a video of himself, speaking to a camera wearing a gas mask. He was calling on white people to acquire weapons derail trains and poison water supplies in order to ensure the survival of the white race. Later, a federal judge outside of Washington DC would read a transcript of their video into the record. Before prosecutors held a press conference, the evidence gathered by the FBI demonstrates these defendants who are self proclaimed members of the white supremacist group. The base were dedicated to the idea of doing harm to African Americans Jewish Americans and others who the defendant you'd is a threat to their twisted idea of white ethno state. Put simply this domestic terrorism investigation like he saved lives. But this law enforcement stopping white supremacist terrorism before it happens has been the exception. According to the database, we put together with type investigations since two thousand and eight law enforcement has stopped about one in three terror plots by white supremacists and other right wing extremists. Meanwhile, they've stopped terror plots by those claiming to act in the name Islam at more than twice that they've stopped three out of every four of those in other words, the FBI seems to do a better job going after terrorists whose ideas resemble the nine eleven attackers, then the right wing terrorists who've killed far more people in the two decades sense. But in the last year reporter David. My word says the FBI statements and arrests seem to show shift towards taking white supremacist terrorism more seriously. It's very clear that the FBI has caught on that. This is a problem. But it's also very clear that they have a lot of catching up to do. And getting the FBI describe how it's catching up isn't easy. His reveals Stan alcorn again. In theory there are people who can force the FBI to explain itself. Congress, but Congress has not always been focused on white supremacists, terrorism, either for instance. This hearing from twenty eleven. The Committee on Homeland Security will come to order led by Republican Congressman from New York Peter King. This committee cannot live in denial. which is what some of us would do when they suggest that this hearing diluted focus by investigating threats unrelated to Al Qaeda. Of Homeland Security and this committee. Were formed in response. The Al Qaeda attacks of September eleventh. There is no equivalency of threat between Al Qaeda and Neo Nazis. Environmental extremists or other isolated madmen. Only actually there are more than twice as many right wing, domestic terror incidents that year as anything inspired by groups like Al Qaeda, according to our data, and that was my privilege to recognize the distinguished ranking member of the Committee, the gentlemen from Mississippi Mister Thompson. The ranking member or top Democrat venue? Thank, you very much champion. Perspective, on a stand at our personal experiences, play a role in how we see the world. We've all come to this place from somewhere else. I'm from Mississippi. Might become the first black mayor of his hometown in one, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, three, a place where cross burnings were used to intimidate civil rights activists. Twenty years later when he was elected to Congress, he made national news for pushing to finally prosecute the mastermind of a k. kkk killing happened when he was in college. But we are not here in these places now. mishearing. Brought up harassed. That happened just the day before. A man had placed a bomb along the route of a Martin Luther. King Day March in Spokane Washington? News reports identified the suspect as a member of the same white supremacist group. That influenced Oklahoma. City bomber Timothy McVeigh. I urge you must've chairman to hold a hearing examining the homeland security threat posed by anti government and white supremacist groups. Are you back? Over the next eight years, Thompson and other Democrats would keep asking for that hearing on domestic terrorism. They'd never get it. I called up Congressman Thompson on Skype, but his office in Bolton Mississippi the same town that elected mayor nearly fifty years ago there about five hundred people who live in this town. So I bet you must know every single one of the more or less. Not only do I know them I. Know Their business. They know my business. There are no secrets. We talked about how it felt to struggle to get his colleagues to pay attention to this threat of right wing terrorism. Plus straighten would be honest with you. 'CAUSE I knew. This problem was growing in America. And Somehow. I committed was missing the opportunity to address. And that's unfortunate. But. In Two Thousand Nineteen Democrats took control of the House and Bennie Thompson took control of the Homeland Security Committee and Eynulla. Advocate chairman. We held the here. And it was only in this hearing. That members of Congress in the public get a chance to see in here for the first time. What was going on? This hearing and other Democrat lead oversight hearings got the FBI to finally acknowledge the serious threat of white supremacy terrorism. They said that could racially motivated. Violent extremism was now as big. A THREAT IS ISIS. But these hearings didn't turn up a lot of details on exactly what the FBI was doing to deal with that threat on the ground like the number of. Cases or, arrests. So I asked the FBI agent in charge of counterterrorism for the Newark. Field Office Joe Dennehy and I think there's really been a surge in what we assess as as racially motivated violent extremism, both here in New Jersey and across the nation I think a lot of the profiles of the subjects we're. We have seen conduct successful tax her younger males. All of them really radicalized online. Now that the velocity of those threats and successful tax appears to be increasing. We obviously dedicate greater number of resources to that threat when when you talk about that dedicating a greater number of resources. Can you share anything in the way of numbers something to kind of concretely get a sense of what that looks like. Unfortunately I can't give any specifics on that on in terms of our. Personnel or assets, but I can tell you that there's a tremendous emphasis. Put on this We recognize that the threat is evolving and moving with it no question about it. And just to be clear. Why is it that you can't give more details on that? You know. I'm not comfortable talking about. The number of agents that we have working a specific threat. So no numbers and then there's the term itself racially motivated violent extremism. Why call it that Are we primarily talking about white supremacy terrorism? Me No question that. White, racially motivated. Extremism is a very serious problem. Well what else fits into that What he isn't saying is the whole point of the term. Racially motivated violent extremism is that they are not just talking about white supremacists who've been responsible for more plots and attacks in the last few years than any other kind of terrorist in our database. What happened was in two thousand seventeen. An F.. B. I. Document was leaked to Foreign Policy magazine about something. They called black identity extremists. The FBI defined them as anyone using violence quote in response to perceived racism and injustice in American society in particular police brutality. Former FBI agent Mike German, said basically, it's black. People who scare them. When Congressman Thompson heard about it, not from the FBI, but from reading about it in the press. He wondered if it was really about countering terrorism at all. You know I went through co Intel pro in the sixties. FBI. Staying on people of column, and so they look. Are we trying to unfairly target. Black. People in Black Organization again. This was scandal and the FBI said it got rid of the black identity extremist category. But in twenty nineteen, more FBI documents were leaked to reporter. Ken Clip Stein and they showed that the f. b. i. had really just taken the black identity extremists and the white supremacists, and put them both in one combined category, racially motivated violent extremism. Can you say with confidence now that the FBI is not focusing on so called black identity extremists as as a terrorist threat and potentially going after. Activists? Walking. Ny Not your that the head of the oversight committee looking at them. Why can't you sort of say it with confidence that you know? because. You know a lot of what I've found that as a member of Congress. Is as a term. A need to know. Even though you might be in a classified setting. And suppose it may have top secret clearances. Are still certain information. That, if an agency decide. For whatever reason? You don't lead the no. And I'll file. They're not going to. The F. B. is lack of transparency is why we built our own domestic tera database. And it's also why the most important thing this congress did on domestic terrorism might be something that's barely been noticed. Tucked into the National Defense Authorization Act on page nine, hundred, fifty seven. There's language that requires the FBI to for the first time. Lay Out in detail, its domestic terrorism data describing every incident assessment and investigation since two thousand nine. And breaking them down by category and saying exactly how many agents are working each threat? That data was due to Congress right as we released this story. Why. Would you have to pass an act in prominence to get somebody to collect data that ought to be Pau of one's job. Needless to say. We had to take it to that level and you had to get it in the defense. Spending bill to right. Yeah, well, you know. What you call a little home cooking. AS CONGRESSMAN THOMPSON WAITS FOR THE RESULTS He's worried that attention is. Being diverted away from right wing terrorism this time by President, trump. In the midst of the recent protests over racism and police brutality president, trump tweeted he would designate antiga short for anti-fascist terrorist organization. Even though the FBI says Antifa is really more of an ideology. Than Group He's Pro United States, and he should lead this country based on what the facts are at the time he's presented with. Thompson says he hasn't seen any evidence of a connection between Antifa and violence at the recent protests. Whereas when we spoke a right wing extremists, who is obsessed with the coming civil war had just been charged with killing a federal security officer near a protest in Oakland and I'm glad that the law enforcement officials have identified and apprehended. That individual, but he said let the professionals do their job. That story was from reveals Stan Alcorn. Just to be clear, the president does not have the power to designate terrorist groups. Still since his tweet, there'd been multiple reports of the FBI interrogating protesters about their political views and what they know about Antifa. Before we go I WANNA. Remind you that we're just one week away from launching our first ever serial American Rehab Chapter One begins with a look inside a rehab with since people to work without pay and calls therapy. Then we'll trace the origins of this type of Rehab to a dangerous cult that started in the nineteen fifties, and came to a crashing end after performing mass sterilizations on its members and using a rattlesnake to attack one of its most vocal critics. We launch American Rehab on July fourth. You can hear it on your local public radio station or right here on the podcast. Just make sure you subscribe to the reveal podcast feet. This week show was produced by Stan alcorn and brisk, neely and edited by John Sheehan Talk You tell Anita's with help from s to Kaplan and Suo. Special thanks to our partners at type. Investigations, David, Nye word an chrome and Sarah. Blue Stain Victoria is our general counsel of production managers Jeeva mean our sound design team is the dynamic duo J. Breezy Mr. Jim Briggs Fernando men, Rueda. This week show was mixed score. By RAHM teen Arab Louis with help from aiming stuff. Our CEO is Krista. SCHARF Burke Matt Thompson is our editor and chief. Our executive producer is Kevin Sullivan. Our theme music is by Colorado Lightning support for reveals provided by the reason Dave Logan Foundation the John D and Catherine T. Macarthur, foundation, the Jonathan Logan Family Foundation, the Ford Foundation the Housing Simon's foundation, the Democracy Fund and the Ethics Excellence in Journalism Foundation reveal is a CO production of the Center for Investigative Reporting Npr, Ex Amal Edson and remember there is always more to the story.
"This is British royalty. I'd like to invite you to join me for a new podcast from slate in new America better life lab. So many of us struggle with working long crazy and sometimes unpredictable hours feeling stressed out or busy all the time. And that we just don't have enough time for our lives. We're going to hear stories from people who struggle with that. And we're going to learn about the science that can not only help us understand why. But also provide the tools for helping us figure out what to do about it. Join me for better life lab. Video three sixty I'm currently, and I'm sitting on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial. I level of guard. This Thomas Jefferson's vegetable, Dr I'd like to have the roasted chicken based very well done editing is all about timing. I tried to get a little bit away from the actual subject. Must get sick of your place. Right. Studio. Three sixty with good Anderson. Own. At the same time in early two thousand sixteen with no discernible explanation to excellent big deal shows about OJ Simpson appeared on television. One was a five part documentary from ESPN called OJ made in America. OJ was initially seed it putting on the first glow. Glove rbm. And right when it was clear, it did not fit OJ goes into naked gun mowed. The other was drama on FX called the people vs OJ Simpson. American crime story playing the lead prosecutor in the case. Marcia Clark was Sarah Paulson. One person. In one hundred and seventy million. Is that one person who matches all that DNA in this courtroom today? Yes, he is could you please point him out for the jury. That the records show that Mr. Fung is pointing to the defendant, Mr. Orenthal James Simpson. Marcia Clark was a very successful prosecutor, but she became famous for losing a case that seem like a slam dunk. And in the process was slagged by commentators, they mocked her clothing and her hair, they called her shrill strident emotional pre classic. Sexism wasn't horrible experience. In my life. Mortar Clark has spent the two decades since mostly out of the courtroom. She has written two different crime novel series whose protagonists right what, you know, our ambitious female lawyers in LA one of them a prosecutor the other a criminal defense attorney. And now she has conjured another fictional female prosecutor even more specifically Marcia Clark like as co creator of a new ABC series called the fix before the whole loop two thousand sixteen I met with Liz craft and Sarah Fain who are my current co creators show runners. And did a different project based on a series of books that I write currently about that's based on defense attorney Samantha Brinkman. So we developed that pilot with ABC studios, and then when that didn't go they like was about a month later, we had a good time working together. And they called me and said, hey, we have an idea a prosecutor loses the trial of the century and goes up to a horse farm in Washington and eight years later, it's a spec did that that defendant has killed again. What do you think? And I said kind of sounds familiar except the horse foreign park wasn't. I think of that where have you guys been in my life that said this the Maya Travis who's the lead of this show? Vicks, isn't me. And we we made an effort to not be me. So it is a prosecutor for sure has an origin story similar to mine. But that's the end of it for you, though. I mean, okay, it's not you. But it is like a do over fantasy for you. Personally. Is it not? It was such a truthfully. No. Because it it departs from anything that I would have been involved in or it's fiction. Yeah. But it's like, oh, I get another go at O J. I mean. Yeah, I can't test. It has that kind of revenge. You know revenge fantasy as it does. It does. I'm going to get them. But yeah, that's fair. I mean, I I can definitely right? Copped it? And I'm not gonna overdo the on a biography. But but watching I think these scenes were both on the pilot. There's a moment when the prosecutor Maya played by Robin Tunney is confronted by the the victim's father. Want you anywhere near you? Lost your done your job rice at faster to be in jail right now. Alive. And then there's this moment where the prosecutor character and her investigator from back in the day who's still there the investigators angry that you went off to your horse farm. Not you that Maya the character went off to her horse farm, and and just quit being a prosecutor here, isn't that seen you know, that thing that my Angeles says when someone shows you who they are believed them. In the gun gets rough. You are someone who leaves. You have no idea what it felt like to be meet eight years ago. Was your face on the news all day every day was your entire life, dissected your hair your clothes every single decision. Every mistake. Nobody knows your name. Nobody blames you for letting them word or walk. You also quit the district attorney's office after the Simpson verdict. You didn't go often run a horse farm, but you did stay pretty secluded for a few years. So does this income pre directly out of your personal experience? Yeah. It did. And I mean beautifully played by Merrin Dungey as the investigator and Robin Tunney is my Travis. Yes, it did. And what what Robin is saying. And what my saying in that scene? Definitely came from my life experience. Come on you. Yes. It was. I'm sorry. I left so abruptly. I shouldn't have done that. But I was a mess. I was a wreck. And I I can't apologize. Enough. But I also can't take it back. But let me just say, you know, what I went through is not the same as what you went through. It was I was front and center, and I was the one getting kicked in the teeth every day, you must think. Wow. What if in nineteen Ninety-four there had been Twitter, and there was nothing virtually and it was crazy as it was the office had one fax machine the public blew up that fax machine spinning constantly. And so we sat down and thought imagine if that trial of the century were happening today. And so we deliberately went after what I know happens because my experience has been very helpful working on the defense side as well as a prosecutor. And I know what you've done since you're plus I did before as a prosecutor hall, so and and the way that things work to in today's world in terms of trying lawsuits. Yeah. People use social media, people definitely spin. They you know, you see it all the time. Faye coming from the White House. Yeah. Even everywhere. So you know, we thought let's make it real that way. Let's show. What would really happen? Are you big consumer of true crime non fiction crime fiction movies books, all of it? Yes. I am an addict I've been inadequate since. I was a child is it hard to to like watch a show and not nit-pick since you know, so much Hake. It was back in the days, especially when I was a prosecutor. And I can you believe I'm a prosecutor. And I watch those shows on TV and I did. And so really did drive me crazy when they got it wrong, and in part now, I look back in hindsight and think, but they didn't need to get it wrong. Sometimes sometimes you push the envelope. Of course, you do you push the envelope. But the more you make an effort to get it. Right. I think the more the audience gets a sense of authenticity. Whatever they know it or not consciously, you know, there's more to it so law and order for all that the prosecution where the white nights and the white hat. Waterston? How can he be bad? Exactly. But they did procedurally get it. Right. Did you know it was wrong? When you woke up that morning. Yes. Did you know it was wrong when you ate your cereal? Yes. He's badgering your honor sit down and shut up Mr. Feinman overruled, and you will address the coot from now on Mr. McCoy. And so that was one show. I could watch and say well, but they are getting the procedure, correct? Right. So courtroom drama and lawyers have been on television pretty much from the beginning of television. And now that you're writing about lawyers on television. We ask you to come up with a list of your favorite TV lawyer characters the first on the list, you gave us is the character. Diane Lockhart who Christine Bransky played on the good wife and now plays on the spinoff show. The good fight. We've got a clip. This is she in the good wife who's just taken a case defending a judge played by. David painter who when he'd been a prosecutor in the past put away somebody who turned out to be innocent? Did nothing less than any prosecutes just to be clear. This isn't your court your honor. This is our offices you need to drop the entitlement excuse me. I thought I was explaining myself acting as if you were injured party I have been barred from the bench, ma'am. And I have done nothing wrong, Patrick Rooney. Did nothing wrong, and he spent twenty years in prison for it. He had his wife's snatched from him. And then he was accused of murder. Your attitude your honor, it will do more to condemn you than evidence. You're on this side of the bench. Now, you have to show humility. Yeah. So so what do you like about that about that character that Christine Bransky place everything? First of all, let me just say about that scene. Well done that was a very quality show. And what she's doing in preparing her client is something that you do, you know because the jury watches the defendant, and they take cues from the way he behaves. So it's really important to let them remind him and shape, your client, look remorseful or look sad or look whatever. But do not look like he was looking like, I dare use xactly ho, man. That's that's just killer. So I love the way. And she delivers see she's delivering this speech to this guy. She's not screaming. She's not. There's just power. There's power in her voice. There's power and decisiveness in the way she presents. It's strong without being bossy. There there's a there's a wonderful middle note. She hits where you know. She's tough. But you know, she's smart, and she knows what she's doing the next character on your list is called Helen Weiss. Who was the prosecutor on the great HBO mini series? The night of and played beautifully by Jeannie, Berlin. Here's a clip. It's a scene from the trial. The defendant has just taken a stand. And and she the DA is questioning him. He seems lamb having some trouble here. You had the presence of mind. To run from crime scene to remove evidence. Implicating you in the crime to operate a motor vehicle without crashing into anything. But you didn't have the presence of mind to dial three numbers on your phone. The prophet. Muhammad has this to say about that. Hurry with all the strength of your legs to the one who needs help. Is that what you did for Andrea? Here's the deal, Mr. Khan. And you know it. Whether you stabbed her not you could've saved her such great scene. Jeannie, berlin. What explained to us? Why? She and that character are so great the writing in the performance initially. Let me just say you don't get to lean on the witness to you. You don't get to get face to face with a defendant like that you don't get to do anything. She's doing she's speechifying in front of him. However, having said all that. The speech is wonderful. She is amazing. I love her understated. See there's power in her too. She's laid back. She's almost slow. I have a tendency to get way fast and general and in court in particular, I've had court reporters throw things at me. But she's cheap takes her time. And she delivers this wonderful speech with a laid back kind of tone to her, but conveys real caring and passion, and it it. It's very layered performance completely grew. It's you say she wouldn't be able to put her hands over the rail, and and give speech without a lot of objections presumably, but. There is it seems to me in in courtroom performances performance. So there is a fiction theater. Reality. Blur always isn't there? Yeah. I mean, here's the thing. I think the courtrooms courtroom is inherently dramatic, right? And especially criminal life and death things are happening there that said that's why I think she could have delivered this. This feels direct Oriel to me. But she could have done the same. Good job had done it in a way that is physically possible, you can accommodate the truth. They chose not to hear. And that's fine. Because everything else is. I mean, the writing is so good, it's fine. But yeah, it's performance. But there's a way to make tipple that off without going so far out of bounds. I also entirely agree with your next one the character of Saul Goodman, the aka Jimmy McGill played by Bob Odenkirk in breaking bad. And now on. Better call Saul the clip we're gonna watch is from breaking bad. In fact, it's the first time saw appears he has just arrived at a police station to meet a client who's being targeted by a young. Detective what are you doing? Detective? What are you doing talking to my client without meat present? You sneaky Pete? Which is which what what did the kademi hire you right out of the womb? You guys get younger every what you say baby face. Did you say anything stupid by anything stupid? I mean, anything at all look at you. Mouth open vocal cords or Twitter. We'll talk about it later right now you out ten minutes ago. Go on there are laws detective heavy kindergarten teacher read them to you. Right go. Grab a juice box. Haven't have go on. Jerk in breaking bad. So what's good about his character? Those characters. I there's so much to say about this. It's really hard encapsulated. All first of all let me just say the writing is phenomenal. And I think Vince Gilligan is guilty of that all the time. But it's also his delivery bone coach delivery is spot on. I mean that kind of brash jokey, but you know, in your face kind of that's a great character. It's also believe it or not a believable character. I mean, you do kind of come in with a big swinging dick when you have to talk to your client in in lockup, you want everybody to back off on the one. I'm standing between you and him and don't you touch him. And don't you talk to him again? I mean, it's it is right on. So he just kind of fills out all the nooks and crannies the entire body of that character in a way that feels so real and natural and compelling in every way hilarious at the same time. Very serious. It's that's no easy thing. He never makes Saul ridiculous. Even while, you're laughing. He doesn't make him ridiculous. It's an amazing spot on performance. So you also addition since we limited this to television. You've another person who volunteered Joe Pesci. Yeah. From my cousin Vinny. Is he possible to to utes to what? Oh, what was that word? What would to what what did you say youth yet? It's what is the unit. Excuse me on to us. So my cousin Vinny is one of my feel good movies. So when I need to a pick me up. That's the one place I go they made it. It's as funny as it. Can you know, it's hilarious, but it's also authentic. That's what makes it so great when they're showing you the courtroom procedures, and what they're doing a lot of it is right on the money at one point in the beginning of the trial that the prosecutor gets out to get his opening statement. And Joe has he goes stands up in front of the jury to give his opening statement routine guide. Just says bullshit, thank you objection. You Ana, grandchildren. Tile, opening statement is objection sustained the entire open statement, with the exception of thank you. We'll be stricken from the record. The jury will please disregard councils entire state. I mean, that's all true. It's perfectly true. So I love that the trappings of it are actually preoccupy out in the course of all that comedy. That's interesting so OJ Simpson. He is he's served nine years in prison for robbery kidnapping got out. He's out surely some impresario has proposed. Hey, Marcia Clark, not Simpson television event of the twenty first century. Let's get them together to do something had it has that happened. Yeah. It has have you seen it? No. That's why I guess why. Because Jay wouldn't do it. Yeah. We tried. We tried so hard to chase him down. No, you're you would never never would die. I probably. What are you dreaming? This was not an instantly weird. It was like people coming up to me and saying, you know, I really love your show talking about the Simpson trial. And I it's not show to me. He's a dose. He's a murderer and he walked out courtroom. And there's nothing entertaining about that to me. So in real life. It's one thing to set to have my Travis pursue someone who is actually a movie star. And you know, have the trappings of hey, a prosecutor going after someone who's very famous that's one thing, but the actual person and the actual situation. Nope. So now twenty years after the most horrible experience of your life. And as a result of all that being replayed on TV into them sixteen you've got this new public persona. You're you're now a feminist icon for people especially women in their twenties. Like my daughters who weren't really aware of the trial. When it happened Huda sunk. I mean was but that must feel. Good. That's nice. I think what's look. It's nice personally. Of course, it is. You know, it feels good for these young women, you know, to to be so nice and into be appreciative the way they are. But it's it's it's nice to me on a much bigger level on a much broader level that pardon the pun. I didn't mean to say that. But for women in general, you know, it's it's kind of an awakening it's a new era where it's okay for women to be tough. It's okay for women to be strong outspoken. You know, not totally. Okay. We're not there yet. But it's better become president. No, right. Exactly darshan. That's crazy talk. But you know, what? I mean, I do think there is this kind of deepening awareness of the fact that women do not have to be, you know, Barbie dolls, you know. So I think it's a it's a good thing for for all of us that this is happening. Did this surprising resurgence a few years ago? The OJ Simpson story affect your life in other personal on might. That's a good question Kurt. Maybe maybe I'm a little more self confident. I do think it gives me a little more personal piece to know that I'm understood a little better. I want people to understand how much I cared. How hard I worked. How much it mattered to me? It was not a circus in my heart. You know what? I mean. It was a circus all around me. Well, good and congratulations on the novels and on this new show. And thank you very much for being here. Thank you, Kurt. What a pleasure. Marcia Clark's new series, the fix is airing Monday nights on ABC. Coming up next. I was alone in how this little cartoon. Freaked me out. I had horrible currying nightmares based on it. The whole time. A surreal Sesame Street cartoon that rattled a lot of kids who saw it and then mysteriously disappeared. Seriously. I've been looking for this clip forever. Because it scared me so much as a kid. I am so relieved to see that either really existed or that we all have some kind of mass psychosis. If anybody finds it post post post in search of the crack Munster next on studio three sixteen. This episode is brought to you by the biggest BMW ever built the first ever accession, the sports activity vehicle has it all performance comfort and luxury and with three rows of seats. It's a big deal travel in style in an all leather interior whether you opt for all electric captain's chairs or stick with standard bench seats in the second row. You'll have legroom to spare the X seven has the technology to make your life easier control, everything from navigation to temperature with just your voice using BMW. Intelligent, personal assistant. It can even respond to a personalized name. You can also upgrade to gesture control to make adjustments where the wave of your finger. Plus, you have the option to include remote engine, start hands-free parking assistance and heated rear seats to top. It all off the panoramic glass roof somehow makes the seven feel even more spacious with its sheer size and seemingly endless features. The BMW X seven is legendary any way you turn it. Visit WWW dot BMW USA dot com slash X seven. That's WWW BMW USA dot com slash X seven for more information. Studio three sixty. When the children's television workshop was developing their first educational show. They borrowed from pretty unlikely source nineteen sixties Madison Avenue fast, action humor and animation. Have become established means of attracting children's attention to television. That's creator Joan Ganz Cooney pitching the idea in nineteen sixty nine you'll note in the animated cartoon sequences at the short simple. Sixty seconds form used by TV advertisers is used here to teach numbers and letters that show, of course, became Sesame Street. It premiered fifty years ago. This fall its format broke the live action segments on Sesame Street with cartoons. CDW as it was called commissioned animators from all over the world to come up with the show's shorts. Most were straightforward and died acting. See? Gene. Others were abstract and surreal, and sometimes even a little unsettling. Can I don't like it here? But one viewer remembers a Sesame Street cartoon that wasn't just strange. It was terrifying. And it still shrouded in mystery studio three sixty Sam Kim has the story when he was about six years old John Armand was traumatized by something. He saw on Sesame Street. It happened sometime in the mid seventies. He was watching the show and his living room surrounded by bad wallpaper and shag carpeting and in between segments with Mr. Hooper and cookie monster this bizarre cartoon suddenly appeared Johner members starting with the little girl lying in her bedroom. There's a crack on her wall, and she watches them more into the shape of animals. I remember really eerie off key music, and these creatures there was a camel being I remembered that there was a monkey that. We're supposed. To be kind of the good guys. But scared me almost as much as what ended up being the monster. He kind of looks like a like a starbursts like almost how a little kid would draw the son. He's the the most ominous crack of all because the music changes. And then it becomes even louder and more often more a nerve ING, and he eventually tries to scream and make himself mean. And then he he crumbles under just plaster behind him. And it says he did he destroyed himself trying to be mean. I guess the message they were trying to get across is don't be mean or your face might crumble. It was terrifying. That something that was you know, in thin somebody's wall came to life. And I remember in my own bedroom I had wallpaper, but some of that wallpaper was a little old and it was coming off in some spots. And I just knew that, you know, one of these days something's going to be behind there. And it was going to get me. And I don't know that that's what they intended to have kids think, but it was enough to stick with me for thirty some years after that to the point where I didn't even know if it was if it was a real thing or not did this really happen because I would ask people that were right around the same age as I was and nobody remembered it I couldn't find anybody that they could confirm that it wasn't just a live in my brain. Armand is now voiceover actor in Los Angeles. He spent over twenty years working as a radio host in San Diego, Portland and Iowa. And during all that time, the cartoon wasn't far from his mind. Well, I had been looking for it probably from the mid to late eighties to the beginning of the internet right around two thousand or so when I actually found couple of people that knew what I was talking about one of those people was Jennifer born, she remembered seeing the Sesame Street short multiple times and grew up fearing, the crack monster. I remember at night when your kid and you're scared of silly things. I'd be afraid like he'd show up on the wall and Jennifer lives in Los Angeles. She's an illustrator draws cartoons online is it. Okay. If I if I see you as a cartoonist and find it for you, call me that unless you think that's cheating because I'm not I'm not like Charles Scholz, stealing calendars and. Bugs and stuff. You know? I'm very modest ahead of cartoon bird talk. Once that's pay. That's good enough for me. Like, John Jennifer started poking around the internet for any trace of the cartoon day was a threat on the muppet themed bulletin board. You about what scared you from Sesame Street? And I think that's where it I popped up. I made a thread about it on Snoop's. That's the internet's Goto fact checking website and people start trickling in that not only did they remember it. But that it scared them. It wasn't just me and little by little this odd. Congregation of people started to form online. It was like a virtual support group of people who were terrorized by the crack bond Stor and people wrote in from California all the way to the United Kingdom. Here are some of Jennifer's favourite posts. I thought I was alone in how this little cartoon. Freaked me out. I had Harvey occurring. Nightmares based on it the whole time. Seriously. I've been looking for this clip river because it scared me stole much as a kid. I've so leave see that. It's either really existed or that we all have some kind of. Psychosis. If anybody finds it post post post, but was it? Some kind of mass Aiko says, maybe this was one of those examples of a bunch of people having the same false memory. You know, like how people misremembered the Barron stained bears as the barren Steen bears. And by the time two thousand eight rolled around several Sesame Street shorts were readily available on YouTube. But the crack monsters Ford was nowhere to be found. So I began this search, and I started going through every possible avenue that I can think of I looked up people that drew an submitted skits and clips for Sesame Street animators at the time during the mid late seventies. Couldn't find anything there. I eventually got a hold of children's television workshop at first they didn't at and I'm using. I know you can't see it. But I'm using air quotes. They didn't know what I was talking about. There were like, we don't we don't know anything about it. We didn't keep all of our shows. And you know, we couldn't Sesame Street been running for thirty some odd years. There's no way to keep every episode, and we don't know LA. So I had I had pretty much all but given up. I was working at a radio station at the time. And I got a fax and the receptionist found me in the studio was like what in the world is this. It didn't say who it was from all the only thing that I had was a number that it came from a number two facts back to, but it was basically they said we have the copy. Instead, they have copy they said they have the copy which was a weird way to word it. But they said, you know, will allow you to see it. But you need to sign this agreement which was to never have a public viewing of it. Never post it online ever Email it to anyone never send it to anybody. You know, this is just for you. So I'm of course, immediately. I was like yes my name. I faxed it back to this number that I was unable to trace. It was just a fax number and six months went by and nothing happened. And I thought well that I guess that's the end of that. I don't know who sent me this thing it is where it gets really weird because it was on a Sunday morning. I was living in rural Iowa at the time right in the middle of nowhere. And we had one of those mailboxes that sat like right on the porch right outside your door. We lived in a neighborhood with a mailman went right up to the porch. And I got in the mail the day before well, I went outside, and I noticed that the there was something in the mailbox because it was right by the door. And I went in like a Manila envelope like a six by nine little Manila envelope. And inside was a disc DVD. It was just there with a handwritten note and on it was written. We trust this completes your search. And what was weird was not only was it on a Sunday. There was no return address, and no postmark and no postage. Could it be is it possible that the video somehow resurfaced after thirty three years? John win inside. And he popped in the DVD. It starts with a two seconds snippet of the previous Burton Ernie segment. And then it faded into the cartoon we see a young girl. Lying in bed. Looking in a crack on her bedroom wall? The animation is is very simple. It's very minimal. And as the narrator explains partially in song. She imagined the cracks is friendly animals, and we see one of the cracks shape shift into the form of a camel. Bed the cracks overhead more and more looked like a camel today's rainy day, and I can't go out and play. Would you take me for a ride Campbell said the camel crap climb upon my bag and right through the wall. Made it go the first time that I watched it. I wanted to just not think I wanted to just take it in and then the girl and the camel travel inside the bedroom wall, and they encounter other imaginary crack creatures there's a monkey there's a hand and eventually the crack monster or as he calls himself, the crack master. It's this large splinter recreate that resembles a snarling face. The crap just growled instead and made himself a very big. And mean, he said, I am crap master. But you spend the wall plaster began to crumble to the Lord where the monster stood were only being would destroyed. Try. When you when you're looking for something for that long. And you finally get it. You know, the hairs on the back of my neck in my hair, my arms stood straight up for ninety seconds. While I watched this thing, and it was it was incredible. And I watched it again, and again, and of course, probably a hundred times over the course of the next week. Going see the cracks again someday. So John was desperate to share that joy. But he didn't know who is behind that cryptic facts. And he didn't want to cross them. I kind of looked for loopholes around what I had signed on April two thousand nine John was visiting family in Los Angeles. Which also happened to be where cartoonist Jennifer born lived. I I got a hold of. And I was like, look, you know. You know, I'm going to be in town. I can't send you this thing. I can't post this thing. But I can show it to you. And and if I do that will you kinda let everybody know. Yeah. I really do have it. Of course. I did. But I also thought it was kind of weird to think, oh, what are you gonna go? Meet some stranger to see a cartoon need what kind of weird thing hurried heaping is this the decided to meet on a Sunday morning. It was a coffee bean and tea leaf in Los Angeles on navy and pulverized and wondering if this guy was really gonna show or if he was just there's less strange people in Los Angeles, you know, visiting or otherwise. And so, you know, you could be just so, you know, lunatic. That's trying to sell me doorknobs or something then like someone showed up the tall guy with red hair. I had my little DVD player with me and put it in for her. You know, she had the same look on her face when she saw it as I did when I saw it for the first time. There. It was the elusive. You know, formerly scary monster I was finally face to face with them again. We really yelled that's him. If I see Jimmy Hoffa or someone at least I didn't get thrown out for yelling. But. I was thinking like gosh, you know, that really is an ugly creepy looking character. I can understand why of high strung kid might get a little freaked out by him. So Jennifer wrote a series of blog posts that confirm. Yeah. John really did have a copy of cracks. And of course, he became inundated with all these requests to make public. And he turned them all down. You know? I I don't know how long the statute of limitations is on that thing I signed. But I don't wanna take any chances. One of those requests came all the way from Australia Daniel Wilson, who's the founder of the lost media Wicky, which is a website dedicated to tracking down elusive material. He's been trying to track down a copy for years and suddenly on December two thousand thirteen received. An anonymous Email no message just an attachment. It was a copy of cracks. Here's Wilson talking about it on the YouTube channel animation warehouse. And I'm thinking that this is bullshit Mike before I click on thinking. No way. Isn't that way? It's this as as someone's just gonna Email it to me, the sure enough I opened it up, and it was the real deal, and I really lost my shit. There was some online speculation about who sent that copy to Wilson people were like, I think that Jon are not I think he sent him the the thing. It was no it wasn't me. It's a completely different. I mean, it's the same clip, but his is formatted different than the clip that I have this new leaked copy included a production title card, which wasn't in John's version, and it's also missing that brief snippet of Burton Ernie. So maybe it came from a different source altogether. I have no idea. I mean, it didn't come from me, regardless of who sent that second copy Wilson, uploaded it to YouTube. Ride. The rain has stopped outside the internet can know finally enjoy the cartoon that's haunted. So many people for nearly forty years. Which is great for John and Jennifer and all the other Xers traumatized by the cracks video decades later, they finally get to see that. Yes. It was pretty much as strange and out there as they remembered it. But for me, it's just the beginning. I mean, I never saw cracks as a kid. I wasn't even born when it came out, but I can't help but wonder who produced this who leaked it, and why was children's television workshop, which is now called sesame workshop trying to hide it. I knew exactly where to go to find out. I went down to Sesame Street to get some answers. Will return to the mystery of the crack Munster after a short break win. Sam Kim tracks down somebody who was part of making cracks. It was probably the goddamn strange recording session. I never intended. That's coming up on studio. Three sixty. Threes sixteen. Studio. Three sixty Sam Kim has been unearthing. The fascinating history of a weird mysterious Sesame Street cartoon called cracks and his search has now taken him straight to the source sesame workshop's headquarters in Manhattan. So we're in the what we call the technical operations area. That's been Leman the executive producer for Sesame Street. He's been at the show for seventeen years. You have every style of tape player that you can think of that we've used over the years. Unfortunately, there copy of cracks isn't in the building. All those old Sesame Street tapes are in queens. We have an external storage facility that's in Long Island city. It's like one of those giant warehouses, and they physically store tape there. But before they got archived the tapes were digitized for internal use. So we have at video database that you can pull up films and look at them. So we could we could do that. Of course, I took them up on it one of the engineers. I'll let us to his computer. Do we know the title called again cracks cracks? If I can find. It is it is. The cracks overhead almost any sesame workshop employees could easily access cracks on their computer. So was this where John's copy came from? Or did it come from somebody at that Long Island city warehouse or was it leaked by one of the cartoons, original, creators, whoever they are. But I have no idea how the copy came into this other person's hands cracks was before Ben's time. But he did have some ideas as to why the show might have phased it out, it just feels like dated in a way that when it was made that probably wasn't apparent to the filmmakers. But then six years later, see this little vile, here crack rock cocaine the most addictive form, you think is the glamour drug of the eighties. It can kill you. And so I think probably the producers at the time thought it was inappropriate. I have one other theory is that it's about a crack in the ceiling. You know, it's the mid seventies. It's a recession. In New York people's houses might not be in the best shape. It just felt like somewhat insensitive whether or not it was insensitive. I still wanted to find out who was behind the cartoon after I pastored sesame workshop for several days. Ben surprised me with a promising new lead. So what am I producers looked it up and the film is made by p imagination? That's the name of the animation studio I had never heard of them. I don't know of any of their other films. I wasn't able to find anything under p immagination I googled every duration of nation. I could think of a p magic nation Sesame Street P immagination animation p manager nation Sesame Street animation and didn't find anything worthwhile. But there was a studio called imagination Inc. It was all the way in San Francisco. It was run by Jeff HALE who did make several Sesame Street shorts. Oh, yeah. Comes up big black braid shoe. Oh. Oh, thank bus the Ville. But was this the right studio. I didn't have much luck. Finding out who the animators are from imagination Inc aside from Jeff HALE, and I don't think cracks is work HALE has distinct design style and just didn't look like a match. Then again, it could have been made by some other mysterious employees at a magic nation. Sadly, there isn't anyone? I could ask the studio shuttered its doors in nineteen seventy nine and HALE died in two thousand fifteen I don't have a lot of information on it. Sorry, we can't allusive eight more. That's the strange thing is nobody seems to have come forward and explained who made it because there there had to be at least half a dozen people involved. You've got the animator. You've got the the voice artists to was the woman. You've got whoever scored there's a lot of music in their whoever scored the the the clip. I mean, there's a lot of people involved, and so far none of them in in seeing all the stuff we were putting online nobody came forward and said, oh, yeah. That you know that part was me. No one has claimed this clip at all even if it was tricky to nail down the production studio, I did get another lead after some digging Johannes sesame workshop found the people credited with the music for cracks the respects Afon is Mel Martin radio producer, Peter Scott and someone named Dorothy Moskowitz. I found her on Facebook after a few messages, she agreed to talk on the phone. Hi there. That's Dorthy lower the volume now hold on a second. But some people on the internet might nowhere by another name. Why in in her bed, the crack sober, but more and more like a condo crack master. I wish I could do over. And it turns out that Dorsey had absolutely no idea that people on the internet have been looking for her for the past four decades. I just found out about it yesterday. So it hasn't settled quite but I was amazed. There's this underground upset in a lot of what can I call it a Colt, you know, and Dorsey wasn't just the voice of some obscure, Sesame Street cartoon. She was also the lead singer for the band, the United States of America, which was one of the most influential groups of the nineteen sixties. They were early pioneers of electronic music. They knew synthesizers awesome laters to create often guard psychedelic rock. The band broke up after making their opponents debut album in nineteen sixty eight but their legacy casts, a long shadow you can hear their influence and bands, like stereo lab animal collective and Portishead who think the United States of America in their liner notes after the dissolution of the band Dorothy joined the group country Joe and the fish this is her singing country, Joe. I came back off the road from country Joe, and it was I guess in golden era of studio work here in town, and I could be in a band. I had corporate work. I played parties. I did every holiday season. I have Christmas gig New Year's gig. And I also didn't have to have a day job. And there were many people like me we could make a living as it musician in this town in the mid seventies. It was fabulous. And one of the studio gigs was narrating this animated short called cracks. It was probably the those goddamn strange recording session. I'd ever attended Dorsey. Remember being a studio in the mission district of San Francisco radio producer, Peter Scott, directed the session we were in one of the small studios. So there was basically Pete and mail Martin and myself so Peter had me lay down the vocal. There was no melody written down. For me. They were no cords written down from L Martin. And you know thing where you wanna thing. Well, what should I think? And I I was wilder. And then I realized that's the way it would work. Well, there were places where it just fell into melody and places where it didn't. But perhaps not so said monkey brag at night behind the door. One. No martin. He just insinuated this wonderful line over and above and around. My narration and it matches perfectly. I'm glad you came away. And how's everybody been? And then Pete said, well, the crack master we need a little more something, and you know, any actor loves pulling out the stops. It's called eating the furniture. Sorry. And so here, we have the best visual in the animation and Melges screeching. I think it's onto instruments, and I'm shamelessly plowing into it with a lot of theater. Miami master, no wonder kids were scared. I scared myself. Oh my God. That's the lady after I found Dorothy, I had to share some of the interview withdrawn Armand. So I supposed them with an excerpt. Thank you for the ride the rain stop. That's. That's the lady from I s I recognized it immediately. That was crazy. Peter Scott died in two thousand eight and mill Martin died in two thousand seventeen Dorothy still has no idea who wrote or animated cartoon. But there was one person Dorothy remembers being in the session a mysterious woman in white. She came in quite late. She was covered from head to toe in sheerline, and like leading blouse and linen pantaloons in a linen skirt and pass went down to the floor. And now thinking back forty years later, it may have been that was a graphic artist artists dress that way Dorsey doesn't remember her name is from being vaguely hippyish sky or earth or fern or whatever name was again. This was San Francisco in the seventies. So that doesn't exactly narrow it down. I recall her talking about their happy some challenges putting the animation together. So now, I'm really wondering whether maybe maybe got an overall. Outlined from her. And then he wrote the words or we'll never know. Now, we'll we probably not this was video that haunted kids. And now, it's a mystery that kind of haunts me as an adult. I mean who created this cartoon who sent it to John who sent it to Daniel Wilson. And who is this woman in white like the cracks in the cartoon the story just keeps Morphing and taking stranger new forms. I think I'm gonna join some of these chat groups and try and figure out what's what I was close to it as you could possibly be. And I'm still mystified camel. Thank you fall. Stopped outside go and see the cracks again someday. You can watch the cracks cartoon on our site stood three sixty dot org special. Thanks to Johannes Beatrice Chow and Ken Scarborough at sesame workshop. And that's it for this week's show. But before we go I wanna remind you to follow us on Twitter. If you're a Twitter user, we're at studio three sixty show, and you can be one of the first to know after us what we're working on and thinking about and thinking about covering, and where you can also tweet us when something we do, please like listener, Brenda Bowen did recently tweeting at us about our story concerning. The original machien entry, this is spinal tap. She tweeted I cherish the memory of seeing this is spinal tap on its opening night and coming out in an elated days adored at then. And now. Studio. Three sixty is a production of PRI public radio international in association with slate. Our executive producer is Jason Gonzalez. Our senior editor is into Adam Newman. Our sound engineer is fans that no pets. No pest months. Have our producers are Evan Chen. Lauren Hanson, soom, Kim. So we sunders Tommy Zaria our production assistant is Morgan Flannery. And I'm credential. He could be just some lunatic. That's trying to sell me doorknobs or something like you very much for listening. Our public radio international next time on studio. Three sixty. Forty four years later movie goers are still growing rice and doing the pelvic thrust. Rocky horror is about the sexual revolution in America. And how insane the country went our upcoming American right hunt. The rocky horror picture show next time on studio. Three six. The.