20 Episode results for "David Kendall"

The inquiry moves to Judiciary. Can the presidents legal team sit this one out?

Can He Do That?

20:55 min | 1 year ago

The inquiry moves to Judiciary. Can the presidents legal team sit this one out?

"This winter joined the Washington Post in its fight against hunger homelessness and poverty with the contribution to post helping hand to learn more and donate visit post host helping hand dot com. The house impeachment inquiry moves this week from the House. Intelligence Committee led by Chairman. Adam Schiff to the house. Judiciary Committee led led by Chairman Jerry Nadler. The Democrats are continuing on E. Speedy timeline for this inquiry. That would set a full house. Vote on articles of impeachment for just before the house breaks breaks for the end of December holidays. That shift means. There's a few key moments to pay attention to this week. The House Intelligence Committee released its report Tuesday on findings from the impeachment inquiry. The report says President trump pleased his political interests above national interests in his conduct towards Ukraine and that trump quote engaged in an unprecedented campaign of obstruction of this impeachment inquiry and quote on Tuesday night. The Intelligence Committee is scheduled to vote on sending that report to the Judiciary Committee. This vote will allow judiciary to consider articles of impeachment based on documents on Wednesday hearings in the house. Judiciary Committee will begin their for constitutional scholars. Three chosen by Democrats and one chosen by Republicans are expected to testify on the standards standards for impeachment and what constitutes impeachable events but some potentially notable people will not be in attendance Wednesday White House House counsel Pats at Boulogne told the House Judiciary Committee in a five page letter that trump and his lawyers would not part of the hearing. So have we seen in anything like this in history. A presence legal team absent from impeachment proceedings into the president's actions how of past presidents used their lawyers in the impeachment process and how might trump's approach be different. That's right we're asking Ken trump and his lawyers sit out of the impeachment proceedings. This is can he do that. PODCAST that explores the powers and limitations of the American presidency and what happens branches of government collide. I'm Alison Michaels our producer Carolyn. I headed to the halls of the Capitol to find senior Congressional correspondent Paul Kane. This isn't his first time I'm covering a presidential impeachment process. So we knew he'd have some answers. I started by asking him to remind us where the White House has stood on the inquiry up to this point in the Intelligence Committee the White House basically refuse to cooperate and refused to have any of the agencies turnover documents and the most senior of all witnesses. There were more mid level career type officials who did testify because they wouldn't be as as legally protected by the presidential order to not cooperate instead so those officials the the George Kensington. Bill Taylor's Maria von riches they got a congressional subpoena Tina and felt obliged to testify so they they did go and testify first behind closed doors and then in public for the Intel Committee Committee but otherwise the White House the very top officials at the State Department Energy Department O. M. B. and in other west swing spots such as Acting Chief Staff Mulvaney they all refuse to cooperate and there were no lawyers present for the White House. During any of these depositions they relied on the House Republicans their staff and their members to be doing all the questioning. We now move into this judiciary committee phase and this is the more traditional impeachment inquiry phase. Where normally they would get to participate? Can you explain a little bit how that process works now. That we're in the judiciary phase. Does the the committee reach out directly to the White House. Ask them make them an offer to come on by. How does it work yeah? It's kind of like a both public and private negotiatied. I'm sure there were some back channel. Talks about letting them know when they were moving into the more public phase at the judiciary the dish Eric Committee and then there was a formal letter sent by judiciary chairman. Jerry Nadler to the White House letting them know that they would have this. I hearing on Wednesday and that there would be more hearings to follow and they essentially gave them a deadline. The end of this week to notify would they be participating. Would the White House legal team be participating. Would some outside personal lawyers of president. Trump's would they be participating so there was this sort of a gentle back and forth and by Sunday night the White House. Counsel's office responded with a you know Hell no for now type of response aunts blasting the process but saying that they might might someday actually participate. So what reasons did they give him that letter from Sunday tonight about why they're specifically not participating on Wednesday basically. They said they still don't believe that. The process is fair to them that they believe that that past impeachment inquiries nineteen seventy four and nineteen ninety eight for House judiciary that those had a more open process. And there were more fact base witnesses that were being called in those inquiries into Presidents Nixon and Clinton and that as if all the judiciary was going to do was call some constitutional scholars and they announced those four constitutional scholars on Monday. They felt like that wasn't a real hearing and therefore they decided that the process was tilted against them and they still didn't have a full assurance of what role the the legal team from the White House would have so they said No. We're not GONNA be there but keep calling letting us know what else is going to happen. As he said Wednesday day it's four. Constitutional scholars will be testifying. It seems to me like the trump administration might wanna have a stake in these scholars. Establishing exactly what constitutes an impeachable offense that seems like something that from my perspective. Trump's lawyers want to influence a consensus around. Yeah you know he will have. There will be the Team of Republicans they're sixteen or seventeen. Republicans on the Judiciary Committee led by Doug Collins Georgia Jim Jordan of Ohio. Who Do you know the former wrestler who trump just loves his style of clashing with witnesses jacket wearing the jacket? Of course he will. He'll have that in those questioners but he's not going to have his own team who would normally be afforded an opportunity community to also ask questions and I think that is going to look more like traditional hearing that you they might be a bit of a circus show. So maybe that's what the Republican goal is but if his own lawyers were also there I I think it would add a lot of time to the negative side of the questioning and they would be able to try to chip away at the Democratic Democratic case in a more coherent legal fashion. That's what trump's lawyers might potentially be able to do. Were they to come on Wednesday. But they're not going to know. Okay so I know we've seen only a few presidential impeachments in history but in that sample size is it unusual for a president's lawyers not to be present in proceedings that are suggesting staying impeachable offenses by the president. It sort of seems like that's when you need your layers the most perhaps Yes the nine hundred. Seventy four thousand nine hundred are the examples and in those those cases now each of them was very different Every all three of these are very distinct and different but and the the judiciary committee process was much longer in each of the other two but their lawyers did get to do things did get to push. Sh witnesses did get to present their own witnesses by participating in July eleventh nineteen seventy four President Nixon's lawyer. There was able to cross examine John Dean. Who has the star witness in a Lotta ways for the Democrats against Nixon themes the former White House counsel who essentially flipped against Nixon and was testifying about various abuses of power and that he personally witnessed and that was a climactic moment where the White House lawyers got to question Dean? The New York Times called it a real real bloodletting in their story of the day that day or the Democrats on the committee admitted that that Nixon's lawyer was quote a good defense lawyer. Her in one thousand nine hundred ninety eight. Ken Starr had spent several years investigating Bill Clinton and eventually morphed into the we live about an affair and trying to cover up an affair with White House intern and David Kendall was really acclaimed. Lawyer in Washington was bill. Clinton's personal lawyer had spent many hours clashing with Ken Starr's team of lawyers including a future. Your Spring Court Justice Brett cavenaugh and but that was all in private and then at the Judiciary Committee. Ken Starr finally presented his report as independent counsel and sort of laid out the case and the charges and it went all day and then that night it was David Kendall Clinton's lawyer lawyer is a chance to just one hour of cross examination public. It was it was electric. I remember I didn't have to cover it day to day back then in DC. But I remember being in a cab driving across town as you know the cab. Drivers made sure to have an on Hound C. Span radio or whatever everybody was broadcasting it and you know that's not going to happen now it will. We might have some sort of similar presentation by the Intelligence Committee to to the Judiciary Committee. I don't think it's going to be Adam. Schiff that will present their report but it might be a Dan Goldman their their legal counsel and and Republicans will get to ask questions of of him. But you're not gonNA have the White House lawyer engaging in in the way that you did in you know in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight it it for a guy in trump who really loves the fight who loves the clash Lash who loves seeing his guy in there fighting for him. It's kind of an unusual choice to have made. And in both cases of Nixon and Clinton's impeachment proceedings. The decision was made that it would be beneficial to the president has lawyers involved so what we're seeing now is the decision. That contrast contrasts that. Yeah they definitely wanted their their legal teams involved. They felt like that was the best way to chip away. At the case. And in seventy four the public doc was breaking against Nexen slowly but surely and opinion was sharpening against him and calling for his removal in Nineteen Ninety the eight. That wasn't the case at all. In Ninety Eight. You Know Clinton had still had really strong support from the public by right around Thanksgiving when his his attorneys had this these great clashes with Ken Starr but they still thought that they could look at and target some moderate Republicans who were wavering. About whether whether or not to vote. Yes for impeachment in this case now I think trump and Republicans feel very confident that that they will. There will not be a single house. Republican vote to for an article of impeachment and instead they seem to just I think that if they say the entire process was bogus that the entire process was horrible. That's why we didn't even participate in it that that will be their strongest defense. I'm not sure of that. But that's what they've basically Decided on community outline the difference between White House lawyers and trump's uh-huh lawyers and who in in what capacity would be there as a defense lawyer for trump. It's very open. It could be people from the White House counsel's office and those are are actual taxpayer-funded. You know government lawyers who are hired to work for the president but ultimately they are answerable to new tax payers in the federal government. David Kendall was an outside lawyer for Bill Clinton who was the higher to basically handle all the various scandals. That involved. Bill Clinton starting with his days as Arkansas Governor. Some of that stuff came back to haunt him a little bit in the first term in which led to an independent council so he hired this outside lawyer David Kendall to do all of that work for him to some degree. That's the role that Rudy Giuliani had been playing for president trump. As the outside personal lawyer. There are a couple of other outside lawyers Jaysekulow being won a well known conservative lawyer for many Christian Evangelical groups those lawyers are personal lawyers working for Donald Trump in really honest case. He's working pro. Bono they are not government funded lawyers. There's but they when there's a lot of leeway in impeachment inquiries as to who you send to defend you in the House Judiciary Committee Bill Clinton sent David Kendall sort of his lead cross examiner when it came to the Senate trial. Bill Clinton actually did not send Kendall and sent most of his is White House. Counsel's team with a couple of outside advisors so for now we know that the White House lawyers will not participate on Wednesday and we may hear more from them by Friday Friday. But do we expect things to change if this process moves to the Senate. Are we likely to see trump's lawyers there I would I think they have to because the their arguments so far on process has all been about house. Democrats are unfair house. Democrats have wanted to impeach trump. Since the the very first day he was sworn into office. And they're trying to de legitimize the entire process when it comes over to the Senate for a trial it's a a Republican majority Senate the procedures of that Senate trial are going to be okayed by Republicans so I think at that point. Their strategy has to shift away from process process process to. What is Your Best Line of defense over here? And you can't say. The process is illegitimate when the person overseeing it is Mitch McConnell the Republican Senate the majority leader. So I think at that point you will see a much more fully engaged trump legal team up until this point we've been speaking specifically about trump's lawyers participation do we have any indication that trump himself might participate in some of these proceedings. No I don't think it it would be unusual. Will Democrats would welcome it. Probably of there was a moment in the intelligence committee. A couple of weeks ago where Jim Jordan was complaining about out how we're not able to call the one witness who started at all referring to the whistle blower. NPR Welsh the Democrat from Vermont quickly interjected and said Okay okay. We'll we'll call the person who started all president. Trump is welcome to come here. Sit Down and explain everything. I don't think you'll see trump providing hiding any direct testimony in nineteen ninety eight Bill Clinton and his team did submit. They were given eighty one questions from the House Judiciary Committee and they took the entire Thanksgiving break and gave thousands of words in answers. I to all eighty one questions and I think it's a double check this. I believe it was all written in sort of you know first person as if it was Clinton himself answering so so there are ways for presidents to participate. I just so far. We haven't seen it from trump himself. Okay then to summarize this. Can he do that. Fashion and Dan the president and his legal team effectively not participate in his impeachment proceedings. Yeah they they could choose to do so they definitely can not do that. But ultimately I still think that Donald Trump is a guy who loves the fight. He loves CBS clash and I think he will want to see his own people out there fighting for him in committee rooms on the Senate Floor Ed on TV. Of course I want to ask you about another thing going on in the news this week. President trump has traveled abroad to NATO. And I'm curious if it's it's unusual for a president under inquiry by Congress to go abroad represent the United States abroad while while he's being investigated at home No no you know there was you look back at Nixon you know. Nixon goes to China a lot of that happened. You know after her. The Watergate break in and Bill Clinton definitely looked at foreign policy as his way to be very every presidential during the investigation. He testified before the Ken Starr Grand Jury in mid August nineteen ninety eight and then went on what was supposed to be about a two week vacation up in Massachusetts. I think to Martha's Vineyard. And then in the middle of it flew home to Washington there. It was panic and rumors of my. Gosh he's flying home to resign and instead he was flying home to announce a military strike against Iraq. DOC and so- presidents have used farm policy often to look presidential in these moments Where they're getting hit back home for you know domestic issues speaking of domestic issues? We're here in the Capitol building so as we look ahead to Tuesday's the report and Wednesdays hearings. What key piece of this are you looking out for this week? I think it's whether or not Democrats can find any more new new evidence between now and roughly two weeks from now. Is They head into the full vote of the full House on the expected. The timeline are there more things that they uncover. Does somebody else come forward. Their Intelligence Committee hearings went very well for them and they had multiple witnesses is who came forward and said also by the way since the last time we talked. I've discovered this other thing that I previously they didn't know about. Is there anything more that they can come up with especially related to the last days. Before the Ukraine security security aide was released all right. We will stay tuned to see what happens. Paul thank you so much for your time anytime and this has been another episode of. Can he do that. If you WANNA get more news about the impeachment inquiry you can now subscribe up to a new podcast feed from the Washington Post all of our audio updates on the inquiry in one place including the latest from. Can he do that. Post reports and the daily Tutu's the idea updated whenever news happens. Subscribe at Washingtonpost Dot com slash podcasts. Can he do that. Is A team team. Effort here at the post is produced by the unmatched. Carol Aldermen with production hop from Ariel. PLOTNIK design help from cat. Rebel Brooks Bogo art from the Rand Bogue Leo and Theme Music by Ted Molded Maldon contributions to post helping hand go directly to services run by beneficiaries beneficiaries bright beginnings and St village and so others might eat that provide shelter food education and other services to those less fortunate in The Washington D._C.. Region learn more at post helping hand dot com.

President trump president House Judiciary Committee White House Judiciary Committee Intelligence Committee White House Bill Clinton Presidents Nixon White House House House Intelligence Committee Ken Starr Senate House judiciary trump Washington Post Donald Trump David Kendall Clinton David Kendall
Rework Mailbag 4

Rework

24:00 min | 1 year ago

Rework Mailbag 4

"The. Welcome to rework a podcast by base camp about the better way to work and run your business. I'm Whalen, Sean builder. And it is that time again, for another mailbag episode where listeners just like you have called us or written in to ask questions. Anyone here at basecamp thinks to everyone who sent in a question we were unfortunately, not able to get to all of them, but we might hang onto some of them for a future male backup Assode, because they're always doing these. And if you have a new question you can leave us a voicemail at seven zero eight six to eight seven eight five zero. My name is Adam Greco. I have a high school senior who's going off to college next year studying computer science, and I wondered what advice you would give to an incoming college freshmen that they can enter the tech workforce's prepared as possible. Thank you so much. First of all, I don't really know I never went into computer science per se. I mean, I had a joint degree that technically said computer science, but really was information technology. I think a lot of it goes into just wanna make computer stew stuff. And if so, is computer science actually, what you wanna do computer science, is the science of computers. There's a whole lot of making stuff with computers that isn't about the science of computers. So I think sometimes it's almost like the default path that you just think, okay. I like computers. I like programming I should do computer science. But oftentimes, that's not it at all. I mean I don't actually like computer science at all. I don't like figuring out algorithms that much. I don't like a lot of compiler theory. I don't like a lot of those deep science topics. But I love programming. I love making stuff with computers. So I think first of all a question you should ask yourself is, is computer science, really the thing you want is learning about compilers, and algorithms and so forth. Is that really what you're excited about if so? Awesome computers is absolutely the place to figure that out if not there's other ways and means to learn about how to make stuff with computers. And in fact, computer, science might actually turn you off that I worked with a number of people in my degree, which was the information technology and business degree when we got to the programming parts we started at a fairly low level, and that level was too low to interest, a lot of people, they got turned off making things with computers because the entry was so hard and the entering computer science really is hard like it is a full-on stem science e topic to learn which means. Very difficult material to, to get into. So I start with the fundamental question is computer, science really, what you want. And if so I don't really have for you. I didn't do the hard stuff computer science. So you have to ask someone else, but figure out if it's what you want, I. All right. My name's Matt Brown. And my question really is, what are the top two reasons why big companies are using him? We had a lot of outdated to on the Microsoft side. And it's very frustrating doing a lot of work about work. And I think they can win. They that, but I'd love to see in other larger companies with my own so. Thank you. Yeah. Well, we don't know for sure, but we have some theories would say one is that we don't really have a sales team sales crew. And I think a lot of big companies wanna talk to someone as you kind of expect, and we don't have a phone number in also our pricing setup like our all of our language on our site isn't really about enterprise. So there's no word enterprise on there. I don't think we don't say contact us if you have more than one thousand employees we're just not really angled towards them. So I don't think they can even see us or even think that we're for them. I think those are two particular reason so say no sales people willing to either make the call or to receive a call and no clear callouts on our sites to get people to, to even consider it. And then our pricing is just not really in fact or to cheap. So it's like an enterprise say some big companies has ten thousand employees to pay ninety nine dollars a month for base camp to feels like they can't be any good. It just doesn't make sense. Right. So most of our. Our customers are much smaller businesses, and I think it's much more proper for them at that level. And the other thing I would say, although they may not know this at the by point. But our product, just not designed to handle thousands and thousands of users it can technically the interface design, that we came up with for managing people, and that sort of thing, like there's just it's not designed for bulk, actions, and that sort of thing. So it just isn't really could fit. This is Aaron in Irvine, California was curious, what your reasoning and logic is behind your flat rate crises for base camp versus a software, this more feature and tear faced as with most of the competition out there, hoping well podcast of all work to take care flat rate pricing, so nine dollars a month is basically, what basecamp cost right now. And we used to have tiers, in fact, for the longest time, we always had tears, this price. I think we started base camp. In two thousand four is nineteen. Thirty nine fifty nine or something, we've played with a lot of different numbers over the years. At some point, we just figured, like, you know, you go into a store and you buy a jar of peanut butter. It's like that's the price you don't really have tiers of peanut butter, you just have a price and we kinda wanna make it as easy as possible people to buy base camp. I don't want him to think about which one of my on, which is the right choice, and I wanna have buyer's remorse or feel like pick the wrong one just if you wanna buy, let's make it as easy as possible to buy in that seem to us to be a single price versus a tiered pricing setup. I next question is the Email and that phone, and it is from a listener named chip. And he says, I really enjoyed reading doesn't have to be crazy at work. I was wondering if it might not be all unicorns and rainbows, at least not at first, what have you observed as the biggest challenges one faces when transitioning from the Encina Silom to a com- company, what are the biggest challenges you faced helping those refugees make the adjustment. And what lessons have you? Learned in the process. I don't know if there's so much transition to comments. It's always been at least an aspirant base camp. Never started crazy. And that's actually a question. We get a lot in terms of. Oh. Now you work forty hours a week. But surely, when you were first starting, you were working one hundred twenty right? And when we say, no, and when we say, in fact, the company and based Chem itself, I version of basecamp was ridden on less than forty hours a week. I was working ten hours a week on base camp from the technical side. And from the design side, Jason and Ryan and Matt had other clients. So we founded base camp on less than fulltime work, which is sometimes hard for people to compute because they have this vision of what an entrepreneurs supposed to look act, and behave like and usually that is go all in go big from the beginning revolve tire life. Around getting something off the ground, and we didn't do that. And we never ended up doing that. So when we're telling the story of why you should be calm. We're reflecting on essentially a com- company for the past twenty years that doesn't mean it's always calm. There's been phases. We've recently had what can reasonably described as crazy moments at work for stained periods of times we've had that in the past two, but it's been blips over the course of a twenty year career that there they're been these moments that were crazy. But our intention was always to keep the baseline com to keep the baseline that most weeks, most of the times for most years will be forty hours a less. So. We are in some ways a little disingenuous when we're talking about transition for other people because we are theorizing. We never went through that transition, perhaps, except to the extent that just an I worked at other companies prior to base camp. And we saw what crazy was like at other companies. It's not like we've never been in an environment where people worked eighty hours a week, we've absolutely have. And when we had the opportunity to make our own choices about how to work, we said, not that. From North Carolina. My question was, I know before they can't y'all where thirty seven signals, and I was just curious about the transition from agency life over to product company, life. Thank you. So back in two thousand four when we released base camp, we were still a design firms. We started out as a design firm in ninety nine and then transitioned eventually into being software design or software company. And it wasn't intentional. It just happened, basically, what it was like, was, we have this idea this, this, we need to wait of manager projects better. And so we're going to build it for our for us anyway. In fact, the initial versions of this, I don't think we've talked much about this. But the initial version was like a blog that was manually updated, sort of really early on, and that wouldn't sustainable, I actually think Scott may have been involved with that way back when kusc outward here for a while. Then he left, I think he may have actually done some of that work. I remember correctly. Anyway, we decided this wasn't, you know, we can't do manually to automate this. We kind of with to make base camp. And we didn't know what was going to happen. So we kind of put together and threw it out there through some prices on it, and it turned out that I don't know about a year year and a half later was making more money for us than consulting was designed was, so it just became a natural transition. And I think every design firm wants to get away from client work. You know that's what they're all about. I think they all want sort of scape it if they can these workers, very difficult. There's you have great clients, but it's still difficult. And a lot of companies are trying to become productivity niches. We kind of happened to fall into that, that we were able to make something that was able to sustain four or five salaries at the time, and then we decided never to look back, and we stopped to inclined work alot. There's a it was a gradient transition. It wasn't a, a moment. It we had to make sure was sustainable. I so. Yeah, I think the thing is a lot of companies now that I talked to people ask me about this, this question all the time and they're intentionally looking to switch. And I think when you're looking to switch, it's a little bit harder because you, you try to put all your eggs in a new basket. We had eggs in a lot of baskets are actually, we had clients in this base camp thing was sort of a side project, actually and just turn out that one of them hatched in the others, didn't have to hatch anymore, basically. And so that's what happened the next question. We got in is actually four Kristen Ardzinba who heads up the support team here at base camp. I this is Dave from Middleton. Wisconsin question for Kristen. How do you maintain fast response time while still allowing flexibility in schedules for dog locks and other breaks? Thanks. That's a really great question. And it's kind of a hard question to answer. I think it's going to be different for every team in every culture who does support. But for us, this was a struggle to get to this point for a long time. We didn't have a. A good self care model on the team. And so people were working while sick working all they had to go to the bathroom. They weren't drinking enough water. And we sort of in a way hit rock, bottom and had to just take a really good look in the mirror and reevaluate, what our team was and how we could be healthy. So we started measuring capacity. We got better at scheduling and we expanded the team. And now we have a global twenty four seventeen and not allows us some space to remind each other to take breaks to take full break, CITIC extra break sometimes. Because sometimes you need an extra break, and that's wholly fine base camps, not gonna stop you from going to an appointment. Sometimes. But we also hold each other accountable, and we hold each other accountable, I think in really fun ways. So Joan is hydration Dula. So we can we send each other like hydrating memes to make sure that we're all drinking water. Our main role. The company is supporting our customers but a secondary role. That's really important. Is that we support each other because his job candy really hard working with people day, in and day out. And so part of that is just making sure that everybody's feeling good in communicating that. So how do you personally schedule time for breaks there, some sort of trigger during the day that makes you think? Oh, I need a break now for me. No, I don't have a scheduled time everyday where I take a break. Some people on the team do for some people have made schedules for them that works for them. And they want that. And I'm happy to do that for anybody. Most people take a break when it feels natural either. That's when they need. A Cup of coffee. They just need to stretch anymore water, or when they had a particularly hard conversation with someone and you just need to clear your head and walk away from it. But I think that for the most part, it's, it's just a natural thing that happens and. The risk there is that you don't take a break. And that's where we have to hold each other accountable. A notice mood switches and stuff to just like, hey, we Lynn interesting, interesting toner taking today. Do you want to break now? What kind of response times are you looking for and has that changed? So there was a time when we were supposed to answer emails, within ten minutes, and that became five minutes and then that became telepathy just getting today. But when the what ended up happening is that the expectation was ten minutes because we were pretty slow, and then we got really busy, and we couldn't maintain the expectation anymore, but we still held onto expectation. And so now I want one hundred percent of the emails answered within an hour. And that's the long end. I really would like things answered within thirty minutes, and people are so happy about that when we respond within one hour people are like, oh my God. That was so fast. And on the flip side, if you respond to Email within five minutes, people think you're a robot. They do not think you're a real person, and if they do think you're real person if you're able to convey that they think you didn't even bother to read their Email. So there's really a huge drawback chancing that quickly and we are capable sometimes of doing that. But it's not the best way to work. Hi. This is from New Hampshire. I wanted to know about more about Jason and David partnership. How has the other particularly earlier in there are affected each other's lives. Thank you. We're lucky in that we both do very different things most the time and then the same thing sometime. So David in tech, he's a programmer. I'm not though. That's how we met because I was trying to be one sort of handle the design side of things. David Kendall design, but, like he leaves that to me, I leave programming to him, and I think that's a really healthy. I think it's probably hard have to founders who are kind of doing the same thing, but we have a very, I think, clear overlap around, like how to run a business and how to treat people in those sorts of things. So I think that's the really healthy part, which is you have to be able to do very different things and really be two people not one and a half, but then also be able to be a one in the. Middle. I think is sort of the thing that I've seen is helped quite a bit. And I think also the fact that hopefully we're both good writers. Mostly tape is a very good writer, and he's become an excellent writer. So I think that's something that's really, really been been easier to for us because we can write books together, and we can do other things together that are not just internal. So, yeah, I think I think that's the sort of important sort of magic sauce of partnership. I think it really isn't that overlap of van diagram that the combined circle is larger and that you feel like you're, you're pushing forward in the same direction where we're putting different parts into it, and we're getting more than some of our parts that either of us individually working, we wouldn't be getting even close to half of what we're putting beginning much less than that. So I think that, that's just it's energizing to have that sense of we can make things together. And I mean a lot of. Of things we've made for base campus, just been Jason or than later involving other people. But just that sense of, like, if things got tough like we can always scale it all the way back to two people. And then we can kind of push through. I think there's just a total shared bond in that that's important. Even if that's not the day to day reality, obviously. And I think also just having different cultural backgrounds to some extent, Steffi's helpful. Jason's american. I'm Danish in. I brought a lot of sort of Dany sensibilities to some of the things Jayson brought a lot of Americans abilities to some of the things and the mix between those things is a good mix. That there's a lot of things to be learned from the overlap, which can it's not just about having different sets of skills. But also have different backgrounds all together that helps you get a broader perspective. And to have more interesting. Arguments, really, I think we've had I mean thousands of arguments over the years, and that those arguments don't just end up being complete echo chamber of over all the exact product of the same cultural societal influences. Is is really helpful, and I think we both take a lot of way from the other from that perspective. But still remained kind of these separate BRAC grounds and using that to the full fact, how early on did you to realize that you share, the same course instability around values, like staying small and growing slow and not taking outside investment. Because like when you hire David, you hired him for a very specific task and not you were interviewing for like a co-founder when we first met. I mean we didn't talk business. It was it was a it was like a I didn't know how to do something in PHP David did. And he wrote me, an Email, and it was really thorough and thoughtful, and explained the problem in this Lucien will. So that was like the initial. Sometimes you read something from someone like, oh, I understand them, because how they right they explain things like he is a clear mind here because I got a bunch of other from other people, I'm as lost as I was before. So I think that was really helpful thing right there that very moment. But we didn't know anything else about each other at the time never met never heard never heard of him. He'd been reading our blog. So clearly, he knew who we were. But I suspect that perhaps he was reading our blog because we had similar sensibilities. I just didn't know that about him because we had met before. Yeah, that definitely was part of it that I was attracted to third signals in the first place, from having that overlap of, like this is weird as the signed company that doesn't have any graphics on the tone page. It's just a list of essays, essentially, some of them assured a single line, I believe. That was just spoke to my contrarian nation nature that. Yeah, I like that. Like I like that it's pushing against something that it's taking a stand. And then, of course, I mean all the way back to. I just looked up the way back machine actually from, I think, like two thousand and one of the first block posts, I found Jason ranting about dot com businesses not making a profit and I thought, yeah, I can relate to that. So I think there was some of that. But in a lot of it, I think, just kind of discovered over the years. We started working together in two thousand and one and we actually didn't release base camp until two thousand and four. So there was a good three years of working together on things before base camp. We worked on something called single file an application to track your books. We worked together on some client projects together. So there was good opportunity to make sure that like this was a good fit. I think that's the other thing about this myth of entrepreneurship is that like oh, you find your. Founder and you mmediately. No, that's a great fit. And then you go off and change the world. Right. We totally didn't do that. We spent three plus years, working together were, if that happened been the right fit. We would have gone. All right, like work with someone else. So by the time we started base camp, not only wasn't it a risk from a business perspective. We weren't risking the business to start base camp. It was a monitor personal risk in terms of what we have to mortgage. The house to do it wasn't even a relationship risk. We had already been worked together for three years. It wasn't like we just went on a blind date and into like, oh, a star companies together. And I think that's. Healthy. I think having a sense of feeling each other out and making sure that that's right there. Certainly plenty of stories and business of people who start company together, and then they realize they don't like working together very much or they see the world very differently. And then it turns out to be surprising, the painful, it's not that fun to work with someone you were ethically or morally completely the opposite of or you just don't have to same working style. Simpson's abilities discount to be enough overlap and figuring that out before you take deep dive of starting new business. Good thing. Rework is produced by Waylon long and me Sean, Hilda our theme music is broken by design by clip, art. You can find us online at rework dot F M where we post show notes for almost every episode. We are on Twitter at rework podcast, and as always, you can leave us a voicemail at seven zero eight six to eight seven eight five zero.

base camp Jason David Kendall design Founder Matt Brown Adam Greco Whalen Microsoft North Carolina Encina Silom Twitter Wisconsin New Hampshire California Kristen Ardzinba writer
A Trial That's Not A Trial

Amicus with Dahlia Lithwick

51:08 min | 1 year ago

A Trial That's Not A Trial

"Do you solemnly swear that in all things appertaining to the trial if the impeachment of Donald John Trump president of the United States now pending you will do impartial justice according to the Constitution and laws. They'll so help you God. Hi and and welcome back to amicus. This is slates podcast about the courts and the law and the rule of law and the impeachment trial I had to confess to my editors this week the main reason I was personally glued to the screen watching Chief Justice John Roberts swearing in the members of the Senate for the opening of Donald. Trump's impeachment. Richman trial on Thursday was because I had been covering the court for two decades and I'd never seen the man's legs. It was amazing. It was like watching Oscar. The grouch just hop up and walk out of his garbage can and I for one found that thrilling related. If you think about it for a minute this impeachment that we're involved in now now is at base about election interference the reason we cannot put off dealing with the president's actions until this coming November is that for the the second time that we know of. He's tried to affect the outcome of an election by asking a foreign power to dig up dirt on arrival and we cannot wait for the election because he's doing that right now with this very election so next week. We're going to start to bring you a special series of amicus that is going to ask tough questions about the very integrity of US elections election law. Professor Rick Hassen is GonNa try to help us map out the serious issues and challenges facing this too often overlooked institution just voting next week. The behind the scenes story of what happened with the president's now defunct voter Voter Fraud Commission spoiler bonkers and you'll hear about a stunning cross examination. That buttoned up. Probably the most significant vacant voting rights case of the twenty first century. So far we're going to be releasing special election meltdown episodes of amicus every week for the next five weeks and sleep. Plus members will have access to extended interviews. which will be dropping on Sundays? So get ready for a whole lot more amicus in your life in the coming coming weeks and if you want even more amicus maybe even some real life live off the cuff amicus. Please join us in Washington DC on on February nineteenth for our live show. Rick Hassen and I will be joined by Florida Gubernatorial candidate Andrew Gillum MacArthur fellow Danielle Citron and Dale L.. Who of the ACLU's voting rights project and we are going to together? Try to figure out what we can do to preserve and protect that little thing we think of as free and fair elections. And we're going to do it before November. We'd love to have you there for this crucial in timely conversation. Four tickets and more details. Please go to slate late DOT COM slash. Live to get your tickets. I am very much looking forward to seeing you there. It's slate dot com slash live for tickets and make sure you look out for the election meltdown series of amicus. Wherever you get your podcast? So there's a lot happening opening this week. Including Bridge Gate argued at the Supreme Court and the first ever known use of the words okay boomer in an oral argument one comment comment about age hiring persons younger says you know okay boomer You know once Wants to the to the applicant. That was about age discrimination and happened on Wednesday. But we're GONNA try to focus in on the Senate impeachment proceedings on this show because what happened on Thursday. When Chief Justice John Roberts marched across the street to the capital and into the Senate Chamber will that was only the third time in history that we have seen an impeachment trial? The presiding cutting off your will administer the oath John G Roberts Chief Justice of the United States senators. I attend the Senate in conformity informative notice for the purpose of joining with you for the trial of the president of the United States. I am now prepared to take the oath. Will you pay sure left hand on the Bible. Raise your right hand do you solemnly swear that in all things appertaining to the trial of the impeachment of Donald Donald John Trump president of the United States now pending you will do impartial justice according to the constitution and the laws. So help you. God I do martial. Roberts was not. Let me confirm wearing gold stripe robe that his mentor chief. Justice Rehnquist had sported when he presided over the Clinton impeachment. But for a man who's not used to being on camera he conducted himself with great decorum and Gravitas. But wh what's going on what happens next. What is this process particularly the legal part of this process? What does it all mean? Well our guest today is Neil eggleston. He's making a return. Turn visit to amicus. He was White House counsel. During the last three years of the Obama Administration he represented the Office of the President in Privilege Litigation. Shen against the star independent counsel's office during the Clinton Whitewater Monica Lewinsky investigation. And one of the reasons I really wanted to talk to him is because I have of a lot of big aim morpheus vague questions but lots of specific nitpicky questions about so many things that I can barely even put into words and it all seems to be missing from the news coverage and Neil knows all the things so neil eggleston. Welcome back thanks Thanks you know. I'm a loyal listener. So pleased to be here okay. We'll then if you're a loyal listener let's just jump into this. I feel that I have asked every guest for the past two months. What is the Senate impeachment trial going to look like in every everyone of them with all due respect has said I have no idea Is it still the case that we just don't know because it's all kind of Mitch McConnell's hands or is it shaping up to look an awful lot like the Clinton impeachment trial that you were involved in. I think we're Have started over the last week or so to get some greater the definition about the way. The trial's GonNa look. There will be a resolution. Put on the floor by leader McConnell on Tuesday I think that will try to has set the balance for what's going to happen. Subsequently and throughout the remainder of the days there'll be significant attempts by the Democrats to make amendments to that resolution but I think the basic contours have come into play. which is there'll be a couple of days a presentation by the House? Managers followed by a couple of days of presentation by the Council for the president. I think the provides for rebuttal by the house managers some questions. I think by the senators although I think listeners probably know that oddly the senators are not allowed to talk to extent. They won't ask questions they have to ask them through the chief justice and so I I think that the contours are coming a little more in focus now certainly than they were before the holidays and then there is this big looming question. Is there a kind of off ramp at which they determine we're just gonNA vote no witnesses no future nothing were just going to dismiss. And that's a possibility. At which point we could just have closing statements in. It's done right. Yes I've thought about. This and I would argue that the constitution talks about the trial. That will take place in the Senate. I don't think emotion to dismiss constitutes a trial and I would argue that some sort of proceeding with some sort of the evidence doesn't necessarily have to be new witnesses but that a motion to dismiss does not actually constitute a trial and therefore would be in violation of the constitution. And how did it work in the Clinton trial. The witnesses were sort of deposed. And then they they. They didn't actually come in and testify right so if you remember. In the Clinton Clinton era there had been a couple year investigation by Ken. Starr the independent counsel who then prepared a massive report and accompanying incumbents. If I'm remembering correctly he actually proposed Articles of impeachment at the House Might want to Consider so so. He had done an enormous amount of work and that work was thereafter provided to the House of Representatives I of the Judiciary Committee then to the House of Representatives House very quickly I think nick within easily within two months voted articles of impeachment that were sent to the Senate I think in the Senate there were. If I'm remembering correctly there were three witnesses. who were I think? Deposed Sidney Blumenthal because Republicans always WanNa pick on Sidney Blumenthal. I I think Monica Lewinsky and as I sit her. I can't remember who the third was. I don't think that they testified. Live in front of the Senate but I think they testified as part of the Senate process and their deposition was played or transcripts provided or whatever but there were witnesses if I remember correctly in the Senate impeachment trial of president. Clinton the the overarching question that I have for you is and this is. This is always a struggle on this show which is supposed to be about law but more and more when we talk about impeachment we talk about law that comes dressed as politics and of course. This impeachment trial purports to be illegal proceeding and yet in all sorts of ways that's confounded by the fact that it's a political process. We've heard Mitch McConnell Say I'm not a juror. I'm not impartial. This political process. It's got nothing to do with the the law and you come at this as a lawyer. So what I want to try to do. We focus this on sort of lawyerly questions which I grant might be completely orthogonal to what it is. That's happening but let's pretend that the law matters and that raises this question that I have about. I understand your stand. The impeachment managers are the analog to the prosecution right. So we've got a bunch of House members who will prosecute the case that makes sense as a legal matter. I'm very very confused. Neil about the defense Donald Trump's defense lawyers as we sit here right now. Talking about it are going to be pets. Baloney his White House counsel Jaysekulow. WHO's a private lawyer to the president? Possibly Rudy Giuliani. Possibly Alan Dershowitz. This is kind of like the TV lawyer Dream Green team plus White House counsel right. Is that standard. What who usually defends the president? I usually makes no sense. We've had two. But what is this normal normal so in the car just to go back to the one I remember which is the Clinton impeachment Chuck Ruff who was then White House counsel had a significant and may be a a leading role and assisted by others in his office. And in addition to that David Kendall people at Williams and connolly were also assisting so as as I remember there were on the defense side for President Clinton. There was an official Group of lawyers and then David Kendall who was president Clinton's longtime defense lawyer in connection with the entire star investigation. So I think that that's the way it was done in the Clinton administration my kids. Sam I am old but I'm not old enough to remember the Johnson impeachment and so I can't quite remember i. I do think I've read that. The then current attorney general and some former attorney generals were part of the defense team. So I think there may have been a similar lineup in connection with both governmental lawyers and private lawyers in the Johnson impeachment impeachment as well so so this thing that is confounding to me. Which is I? Don't understand exactly how White House counsel is working being hand in glove with private counsel and you're saying in the Andrew Johnson impeachment possibly the Attorney General. It seems to me the thing that is very confusing news. Don't all these people at least by design have quite separate lanes in government. I mean you you come to us as you know White White House counsel former White House counsel under Obama conflicting all these jobs in the impeachment strikes me as very confusing him. I just being deliberately obtuse here. Sure well I I am not So let me if I could just take a step back and answering their questions so I was in the White House. Counsel's office then. On as an outside lawyer represent the office of the president in in connection with the Star Independent Counsel Investigation and there were lawyers the me for example representing the Office of the presidency and sort of the president in his official function with regard to assertion of privilege and things such as that end The president also had private counsel. We were careful. I think to keep those roles separate. I did not represent president. Clinton Clinton in his personal capacity and David Kendall did not represent the president in his official or presidential capacity In the Obama administration it really wasn't much of an issue shoe because there were no issues that created a tug of war between those was essentially one guy in one set of problems and those set of problems were official no problems and and And so we really didn't confront that issue here. I'm not really surprised or troubled that there are both governmental mental lawyers and personal lawyers. Involved this one action by the House and ultimately if it takes place by the Senate has an enormous impact on the president both both in his personal capacity and is presidential capacity and so I'm not critical of the combination of inside and outside lawyers in connection with the defensive president. Trump wants were now with the cenetral and yet you were pretty critical. I re- I read About a talk you gave This fall you were pretty the critical of PAT SIP Baloney kind of getting out of his lane In that October letter where he proclaimed in lots of trumpy words that the president would not be cooperating in any way the impeachment inquiry. So I guess it seemed to me that you were saying that. He was acting strangely as though he was trump's personal lawyer in that matter not as White House counsel and then I think I also read you telling The New York Times that he has in many ways acted just as though trump was his personal client. Is that different. From what White House counsel ordinarily. Does that just a tone issue so I think that PAT has acted in a way. That's less respectful of his duties as counsel all to the Office of the president. Then prior White House counsel certainly different than I did As White House counsel with President Obama and different for my role during the Clinton investigations. I was particularly critical of the letter. That pat wrote in October in. This is the seven page letter. Was that just just essentially said that impeachment is unconstitutional. WE'RE NOT GONNA cooperate in any fashion. We're not gonNA give you witnesses. We're not going to give you documents. And it was filled with exclamation points in all taps. If I'm remembering correctly I think it led most people including media conclude that there was a second potential author of the letter and that's the United States. I was critical of it for a couple of reasons. One is that it was not particularly a legal based letter and I thought that the White House counsel should be writing letters based in law and sort of not in politics or not in you know beefing up the base in the like there plenty of people in the White House who can perform that function in a and I think that the White House counsel Shit essentially stay in his lane so I was critical of the letter for that reason it was actually critical the letter for a second reason which ages having been White House counsel. I knew that a letter like that would have very little impact on career officials in the various different agencies and it was going to be a letter that was going to be ineffective in his White House counsel. I never wanted to write a letter that I thought was going to end up being ineffective and it turned out obviously basically can't remember the number but a dozen or whatever administration officials testified during the house hearings which is exactly what I would have predicted would have happened happen. So it's critical. I think of the letter for those two reasons. And maybe others is the implication that he had he written a more sort of doctrinal e. Sound lawyerly letter may be the Fiona Hills in the and the Other folks who who testified would've been deterred from testifying that that it was just again. This kind of tonal problem. No I don't think that The field the hills and the admiral of the world really cared much about the White House counsel had to say about whether they should testify or not. What I really mean is that it? Having it not be particularly legal letter and ultimately ineffective letter it was going to Show the inability of the White House to really have an impact over the witnesses. Who are going to be if they were out of the White House? People like acting chief-of-staff Mulvaney was in all likelihood GonNa follow the direction the White House counsel but once you get to career ficials at the State Department. They just don't particularly care what the White House counsel has to say. And so I would not have written a letter is if my pronouncement announcement would be necessarily taken Because I thought the likelihood it would be taken as a binding directive was quite low. And that's exactly how it turned out. So That's interesting because because I think the thing that I've been tilting at and you just said it is the White House. Counsels responsibility is not just to this president. It's to the office of of the presidency in one of the things you don't want to do is kind of diminish that office and that is that what you're saying. Well Oh I think so. Look this happens There was a there was a pressure. I think in the White House to do that. On behalf of President Clinton obviously President Clinton took a very different for an attitude towards the impeachment process. He took it seriously. He was contrite and apologize to the nation when the process was over and President Clinton came out out of that process with higher poll numbers or at least as high poll numbers as when he went in and pull numbers that were quite high and I think he decided to treat the process. This was sort of much more respect than the current White House has but it could. It could just give you an example of a of a something. I'm a little bit worried worried about. which is I think responsive to your question but not quite in the impeachment context? Which is there's this litigation ongoing about Don mcgann the former first White House counsel for President Trump about whether he can be compelled to testify before Congress? And that's exactly the kind of litigation I tried to avoid that issue has been litigated. Wants before we litigated. At the end of the George W Bush administration of Harriet Myers Tires and Josh Bolten who had been chief of Staff Judge Bates. WHO's a terrific Republican judge deputy to Ken Starr if I remember correctly? ruled that there was no privilege absolute privilege that that authorized either. Harriet Myers former White House. Counsel or Josh Bolten to refused fused to respond to a congressional subpoena so that had been lost once before protecting senior officials at the White House from harassment. Awesome and distraction. I regarded as one of my principal. Jobs and I- asserted this from time to time on behalf of current vary senior officials. I did not asserted in a blanket fashion at all. There were people who weren't happy with that. But I was very careful about when we would assert it and made sure that we did it with a very firm foundation. I'm quite concerned that this litigation has the ability to change the relationship between oversight site by Congress by the President and fundamentally. I'm worried that the White House is GONNA lose. NFL White House Loses these litigations. It'll be a precedent and then will apply in the future and the ability to keep senior White House officials from responding. To congressional subpoenas will be lost the ability To to essentially even engage in the accommodation process will be significantly diminished because the courts will have have already set forth the parameters of the combination. And and so I. I'm worried that the president trump and pets at Polonia are are litigating. This with a weak hand and the loss will have an impact on future. Presidencies this is an example to me of litigation that should not have been brought that was brought in the short term interest of president trump. But probably isn't the long term interest of the office of the president. I think that's such an important point because in sort of reading up on you've actually been on both sides of these subpoena wars. You've counseled people who are facing subpoenas you've as you said negotiated to try to avoid or limit demands for testimony Tony On behalf of the White House and I think that the word that we always heard going into these oversight processes was always accommodation that this was resolved by accommodation behind the scenes and it was immensely important to all the institutions involved to try to find solutions. And what we're seeing seeing now. Is this blanket refusal to accommodate. And what you're saying is that's only going to take us down the road of warfare on all issues all the time going forward regardless of who wins or loses that the sort of normal accommodation has been broken. That's that's what you're saying right. Yes and I I. I thought accommodation was essentially the way to go there to Congress in the executive branch of the Presidency or coordinate Berges government and try to work it out in a way where Congress got the information that it needed and yet I was able to protect the sort of core values of the presidency of core institutional interests of the presidency was really where I wanted to Really end up. amicus is brought to you by first republic since nineteen eighty five first republic has had just one goal deliver extraordinary ordinary service. That always goes beyond client expectations because no two clients are alike first republic designs financial solutions for individuals and businesses. Is that are customized to help. Meet your needs and goals reach out today and you'll be connected with a dedicated banker. Who will be your primary point of contact throughout your relationship ship with the bank? You can call or email your banker at anytime for advice or to get help with whatever arises because they understand your total financial picture. Your banker can recommend the services and products that are best suited to you or your business and they're committed to staying objective so it's always about what makes sense for you at every the stage not about what's most profitable. If you're ready to discover how a personalized approach to banking can make a meaningful difference in your personal and business outcomes. VISIT VISIT FIRST REPUBLIC DOT COM to learn more member. FDIC if you're looking to change your diet instead of restricting what you eat what if you nurse your body not with the healthiest and most nutritious food with Sikora your pudding the best into your body so you can feel your best. Sikora is a nutrition company that it focuses on overall wellness starting with what you eat and their organic ready to eat meals are made with powerful plant based ingredients. They are designed to boost your energy improve your digestion and get your skin glowing their menu of creative chef crafted breakfasts lunches and dinners changes weekly. So you will never get board and it's delivered fresh anywhere in the US and this is me telling you that my teenage boys enjoyed it too along with delicious meals. Sikora also has has daily wellness essentials like supplements and herbal teas to support your nutrition to boost results. Try the best. Selling metabolism super powder an all natural remedy for bloating weight gain and fatigue Sakarov has received rave reviews from Vogue Goop The New York Times and more and right now the car is offering our listeners. Twenty percents off their first order when they go to Sakarov dot com slash amicus and enter code amicus at checkout. That's Sikora S. A. K. A. R. A. dot com slash amicus. Am I see us to get twenty percents off your first order Sikora dot com mm slash amicus. And if you're hearing this you are listening to the regular version of our show which is awesome. Thank you but if you were to sign up for sleep plus you you could enjoy this show commercial free and you'll get access to bonus segments and extended versions of all your favorites late shows including exclusive extras in our election election meltdown series. The one that launches next week plus membership is only thirty five dollars for your first year and you can sign up free for two weeks just to check it out. I and that's not all of course by signing up for sleep plus you'd be supporting this show and all the journalism that we do here at slate we know you value our coverage now more than ever. Are you know how urgent this work is. We need your help to do it. Sign up for sleep. Plus help secure sleet future to learn more to begin your free two week. Trial go to oh slate dot com slash amicus plus and now back to our conversation with Neil eggleston. He is former White House. Counsel to President Obama. So I think of you a little bit as the executive privilege whisper. You've been so involved in in claims around executive privilege particularly Post Clinton and. I wonder if just let's start with the nuts and bolts question. which is I think? People talk about executive privilege and immunity as though they're completely interchangeable. They're not interchangeable. Can you can you just explain when we talk about executive privilege what we mean and why the privilege exists. Sure so the case are everyone really knows about of course is USB Nixon which is the in the Nixon Cases President Nixon People forget that that case arose out of a trial subpoenaed to President Nixon for the tapes in connection with a off with a trial. That was coming up his underlings. He was not actually a defendant. Defendant or a target I guess of of of that and the Supreme Court recognize that there was a constitutional underpinning to executive privilege. Login recognize the president needed some Zone of ability to talk to his Senior advisors without intrusion by Sort of other investigators but it was a qualified privilege in that that qualified privilege had to give way to a showing of need by whatever entity it was that was seeking the documents in that case the Supreme Court ruled that the trial process outweighed I think it used the expression and undifferentiated need for secrecy by the president and as a result of tapes were ordered turned over to the special counsel by a unanimous opinion. Mind you with. I think for members of the Supreme Court had been appointed by President Nixon at the time that that was rendered its decision written by the Chief Justice Warren Burger. So that's sort of what the executive privilege is is about. The best explanation of the entire concept was actually an opinion by chief. Judge Walter case I argued on behalf of the Clinton administration. It's the SBK's like so many of these. It's called in Ray sealed case but arises out espy. Which explains the difference between Presidential Communications Privilege and executive privilege but to to get to your really point of your question? Ariza subset of executive privilege that the office of Legal Counsel at the Department Justice Justice has recognized and has recognized for a period of time including in an opinion written to me. When I was White House counsel fobbing senior Obama Administration official and that is what's called absolute privilege and that is a privilege not to appear at all in response to a subpoena Oh well see takes the position that that's PLIES to a very small set of very senior advisors who have regular communications with the President and that dad is essentially the issue. That's being litigated. In began began is refusing to testify at all. In all of these cases the witness could still show. Oh up for the testimony and if cert- executive privilege where appropriate in response to specific question. So what's being litigated. mcgann is this issue of. Does he have the right to refuse even to appear and answer any questions whatsoever including you know look White House counsel I did. I had lots of communications with people that were not covered by executive privilege that I could ask about the other thing that makes the began case. Difficult particularly for this absolute privilege Issue is that Mister mcgann is at Jones Day. He's no longer White House officials so the issues that always concerned me aback. Congressional national subpoenas to senior White House. Officials was the ability to distract the senior advisors from implementing the president's initiatives and policies. And and. That's why I thought it was important but I don't think that that issue applies when it's a former employee who really can't Be distracted from serving the president because he's no longer serving serving president so I I think there's a pretty big difference between those two and this is all separate and apart just for for listeners. Who are confused from the claims names that are being made in the financial records cases? Those are our claims that are being made about you know absolute immunity from suit absolute immunity even from investigation instigation. I believe that separate from these privilege claims that people like Bolton and Kupperman and mcgann Are Litigating right now correct. Yes very much so those are what I would think of. As even more out there claims that essentially say that the president is states cannot be investigated at all so long as he's president states and their position has benefited a little because they take different positions and different courts in the positions have not been particularly consistent distant. So th they're arguing some courts that they particularly the request by D. Vance in New York for financial records from the accounting firm as ours. They essentially argue that. We can't be investigated at all for any criminal activity while we're president. I'd states other places. They've argued that they can only be investigated in connection with an impeachment. And not anything else the theories keep twisting around. But but you're right that's that that essentially as a claim that the president is states is absolutely immune from even investigation while he's president. And you mentioned the the Nixon case and I want to. I just ask you one question that again. I've seen this in some of your writing A A round of these claims of privilege and weather. It's a smart smart for people. Like Rudy Giuliani to simply ghost and not show up. Isn't the hallmark of the Nixon tapes. Case that Judge Ceric up fast track that the entire litigation Start to finish including at. The Supreme Court happens in a really compressed amount of time. The Don mcgann's subpoena as I understand. It was first issued in April. The we got the decision from the District Court. This fall Who who knows what's going to happen if anything part of the reason I'm asking this question is the courts have if they want the discretion to who make these things go fast enough that they work in conjunction with an impeachment inquiry? We have seen I think close to nothing of the sort from the courts who have of overseeing the various cases you and I are talking about and it raises this question you Adam Schiff made a decision rightly or wrongly as impeachment began to just not battle this out in the courts was that an error so I actually think it was not an error largely for the reason you said as you mentioned I did a piece. Yes in the Washington Post last summer because it was predictable. What was going to happen? which was going to be that? There'd be a series of subpoenas issued food the administration was not going to comply with subpoenas that Congress was going to go to court and I made no argument about the substance of the merits or how the course should rule but the point I tried to make is by not ruling they are essentially benefiting the president and putting a finger on the scale to the benefit of the president and sort of taking a longtime longtime is not neutral. It's actually Contributing to an outcome and so many of these issues I think are really fairly simple and could be ruled on quickly could even be ruled on from the bench. I get at the district. Judges don't like to do that because they're going to be reviewed in the Court of Appeals. They want to make sure that they have first of all their arguments in place. Although I think some of these could have been resolved by a ruling from the bench with an opinion to follow But but I did argue and I really feel pretty strongly that courts have an obligation to decide these kinds of matters very quickly. I should say that I think that the courts in New York on the financial cases have done pretty quickly. The district judges have gone pretty quickly. Courts of appeals came out with opinions Indians Quite quickly Chief Judge Katzman had a terrific opinion. I thought in the maze ours case in the second circuit which was you know quick skin precise and and quite well done the result of that though is I do think with things like them again case and the litigation which frankly took a while before Judge Leon and let me just throw in one of the thing which is and the likelihood that the case would not just go to the court of Appeals but would also also be sought review by the Supreme Court would mean that it would be months and months and months at least Before these issues would be resolved. Surprisingly the pricing lied to me. The Supreme Court took the two or three of the financial records cases. Fake that they were not particularly cert worthy but the Supreme Court decided to take them so decision will not be coming out at Supreme Court until end of June. Probably I predict at the earliest as a result. I don't think that chairman shift made of a mistake mistake by not pursuing litigation. I know he's under some criticism by the Conservatives for for that I think of it for two reasons which is one. I think that he had more than enough evidence. I don't think there's really a legitimate dispute about what happened here More evidence always nice. But I don't think that That that this case is really being litigated on the basis of what actually happened and he's confronted with allegations that the president was acting in order to skew the twenty twenty election election and I think the view by him and by Mrs Pelosi was that the House simply had to act and couldn't wait for the judicial process to take its course and I think that was actually wise decision. Neil can you talk about the fact that given these assertions of no we're just not showing up Particularly from from folks who are not even government actors like Rudy Giuliani. When they just said no the house just said okay The house have any ability to push back against that. My view is that the house has a tool that it has not yet used. I mean there's been some discussion of this tool of inherent contempt. which having a sergeant arms go out and arrest people I? I think that hasn't happened for over one hundred years and I think the likelihood the is that being a realistic tool I think is should not really be on the table. I liked that by the way at the tiny jail. I I was a big proponent of putting them in tiny jail but you're really well it was silly I just like the optics go go go on I I but I do think that there's another option that the house is not yet availed itself of and I I would urge that they Do so I think the house cannot be in a position of issuing subpoenas to individuals who have no cultural claim claim to absolute immunity as we talked about it or to refuse to appear at all. who simply snubbed their nose and said they were not going to appear? I think Rudy Giuliani falls falls in that category. He may be able to assert Attorney client privilege in connection with some communications with President trump. A lot he could Answer her questions about so I would recommend to the House that it s to those individuals pursue criminal contempt proceedings. The criminal contempt penalty is a misdemeanor punishable by up to a year in jail but in addition the statute provides for minimum one month in jail. which is a significant deficient incentive to people I think so people ask me? We'll neil what sense does that make. It's a Republican Administration and this department. Justice is not going to seek prosecution against any of those people. I would just say that. I believe it's a five year statute of limitations and if there's a Democrat elected in November the ability for the next administration to look at those issues look at those individuals and decide where the prosecution is appropriate appropriate will be very much on the table. And if I were one of those witnesses I would want to know about that and I would think about that and I would talk to my lawyer about it before i. I simply took the position that they were good ignore subpoena and I just really think that the house has to not leave itself in a position where it does nothing in response to people who got a subpoena and just chose not to appear also for some of those reasons that we talked about earlier. which is these norms right? I mean I think if it becomes the norm that people just say Yeah No. I'm not showing up Going forward if that has not been enforced to the limits that you can enforce it. You've really just gut it enorm- there right. Yeah no I think that's right. I think the house is simply elect people get a subpoena and treated as an invitation that that is not in the interest of the house. We haven't talked about Rudy Giuliani. And I feel that I have to and yet the question I have written on my page is question. Question question work I think the question I WANNA ask. You is particularly with the documents that we saw this week. It's there's no longer any question that he was acting in a capacity. I Dunno on behalf of the State State Department or other things. He's asserted it's now. I think fairly clear that he was acting as the president's personal attorney doing whatever he was doing in Ukraine I I guess I'm just sort of baffled again by his lane in all this. He's the president's personal attorney Okay but now he's also doing international diplomacy back channel diplomacy but also conducting some kind of formal Armel corruption investigation about Burma's MMA and Hunter Biden but also may be a defense lawyer in the impeachment. Also never never honored his subpoena. I'm very confused. Where where do we put Rudy Giuliani? And all this question. Mark Question Mark Question Mark so so Dolly I don't know that anybody could sort out. What Rudy's roll In which hat he was wearing sort of in connection with all this I. I sort of joke. Can't imagine it was really worth it. But but rudy Got The president Article One of impeachment and PAT SIP alone. Got Him article too So the notion that That Rudy would be a defense lawyer is actually quite intriguing. Because it's really the activities of Rudy that That have have Gotten us where we are today. At least it appears to me I think in some ways that feel a hill when she testified really hit the nail on the head. At least as far as I was concerned which is that she came to realize that with regard to Ukraine in Ukraine policy. There were really two lanes which is that she was involved along with the ambassador and others in a foreign policy lane seeking to assist Ukraine particularly against aggression by Russia. But that there was a separately being led by a bastard son and being led by Rudy Giuliani and left Parnasse and and and the the sort of people on that side and she called it that was a domestic activity and domestic activity is designed to hurt the presidents possible political rival Vice President Biden. But she really described as they were you. You can't really mix them. The domestic side was not really a foreign policy side it was a US domestic effort and which was different than what she was doing. I really thought it was Impressive the way she had sort of analyze that and I would agree with the way she thought about it which I think explains really. What Rudy's role was? He was largely acting on behalf of his his individual. Client as as the letter. Released by. Parnasse This week made clear remained very clearer in the letter that he wrote US Alinsky that he was acting as a personal attorney for the president in his individual capacity not in his presidential capacity and that was involved entirely with the effort to get ah Linski to announce an investigation of the Vice President Biden. So I think in some ways Fiona Hill was able to sort of cut through the different strands ends here and I thought it was impressive. She did and that dovetails with. I think the last sort of big bucket of questions I have for you. Which is you've you've done a ton of corruption corruption litigation In your career. And I I know you think about corruption. I think one of the things that's gotten lost for a lot of us will what corruption shen even means anymore and I. I wonder if you can speak to this kind of funny corruption off or having over Ukraine Ukraine. which is you know we have one side saying look it as it is demonstrably a corrupt thing to withhold? Almost four hundred million dollars in congressionally designated aid to Ukraine in exchange for going after your political rival and then sort of the trump answer is no I was in fact going after corruption myself. You know what Rudy was doing when he was wanting around the globe meeting with various oligarchs and doing whatever he was doing was rooting out. Corruption in the corruption here is Hunter Biden thinking of it in the context of bridge gate arguments this week. So much of the discourse even around emoluments is. Can you give me a crisp definition. As a legal matter of what corruption is. Because I oh I think we've lost it. I think corruption has become anything. That other guy is doing that. I don't like so I don't know that I can't give you a crisp crisp Definition particularly because you said this is a sort of a fight that's going on in the political process and as You well know dia the impeachment process high crimes and misdemeanors deminers. Although it's got the words misdemeanors crimes in it pretty clearly. The founders did not intend that to only apply if a crime had been committed a phrase that I borrowed from English Common Law which meant more than they crime and you know we can think a lot of crimes that a president Mike Committee et. That would not be impeachable. I actually think there's a very serious issue about whether what President Clinton did was actually an impeachable offence within the meaning of the Constitution. But you know that's Significantly in the past and you can imagine a series of things a president might do that would not be crimes at all but would be certainly quite impeachable and so I think that in some ways the focus on on crime has gotten away from what Founders met when they wrote high crimes and misdemeanors me the problem with the trump approach is that there's really no evidence pittance in support of it. The only corruption that we've heard that he was trying to root out was alleged corruption by his political opponent. It wasn't that he was trying to better IQ Ukrainian society he was Obviously trying to get presence alinskyites to announce an investigation into Vice President Biden. And there's a fair amount of information mostly from ambassador silently that made it clear that all the president really wanted was the announcement of an investigation by Sizlanski of Vice President Biden. Actually care whether the investigation took place or not so I do think at least in constitutional terms what we need to think about is. Did the President Act in a manner abusing his office for his own personal benefit. I think that that should be the touchstone I think that's the way the founders talked about it when they talked about in the constitution in that hot summer and I I really think that's the way we should think about it. And that and that's should be the decision the the senator should be making as they're considering the evidence over the next couple of weeks and so if we could circle back to sit in the last moment here to what would I opened with. which is this? Is this weird interstitial process that is not quite purely legal. It's not quite purely political. It's an animal mole that I confess to having just a little bit of weird goose bumpy. Feeling watching the chief justice in the Senate it feels worlds collide. And it's hard for me to be all in on the Mitch. McConnell view that this whole thing is just bare knuckle politics How much does John John? Roberts both institutionally I think we know institutionally. He doesn't have as much power as one would imagine. He can be any decision he makes can be overruled by fifty one votes. But I wonder if you have some sense of John Roberts as as an actor in this moment how how much he drags us out of bare knuckled politics into the world of law or how much he just kind of crouches there. Let's that's the politics play out and tries to keep his own integrity the integrity of the article. Three branch Wh how does he find his lane in this process. Well I think that Chief Justice Roberts is going to want to be participating in a Serious and solemn alum Enterprise in is not going to want to be part of a denigration of the institution of the Senate or for that matter something that would drag big the supreme court into the whole mass in connection with his own role and I think he'll be careful in that there's been fairmount written about what his role could or should should be. There'll be a couple of constraints on him and this is also a constraint on the current Senate which is their standing rules of the Senate on how impeachment trial shall be conducted in the Senate and those rules cannot be amended as I understand it without a two thirds vote The Senate and I think that we should presume as a result that those those rules will stand and so those rules are in some sense immutable. The second constraint is going to be the resolution that I also talked about the beginning that Mr McConnell Econo- will put on the floor beginning on Tuesday that will try to set for some of the contours are what is going to happen. Think Chief Justice is bound by whatever those contours and tours are. If the Senate votes there been some discussion about well could the House managers apply to the the chief justice for a subpoena to a subpoena witness. It seems to me that if the resolution adopted by the Senate says no witnesses. I think that that would be quite unlikely that he would grant a subpoena for a witness because he would deem that. It's sort of the outside of his power More interesting question if the resolution ends up silent or servant clear on that On that issue do you think he will be quite cognizant of the constraints on his power and I also think he'll want to be involved in a process that is Solomon woman serious and not sort of circus solemn serious. Not Sort of a circus is exactly what I wanted. This show to be so neil. eggleston former White House counsel in the last three years of the Obama Administration and represented the office of the President in privileged litigation against the Star Independent Independent. Counsel's office during the Clinton Whitewater Lewinsky investigation. Neil thank you very very much for being the voice of simultaneously kind of the where's Waldo of litigation over the past decade but also For being the voice of reason and absolute centering of the law in this very mad moment. Thank you for being here. Yes thank you. That is a wrap for this episode of amicus the impeachment trial addition. Thank you so much for listening in. If you would like to get in touch part email is amicus at slate dot com and you can always find us at facebook dot com slash Anna Kaz. This podcast we love your emails. Love your letters especially now. Your questions have been immensely helpful in shaping the show. Today's show was produced by Sarah Birmingham. Enam Gabriel Roth is editorial director of sleep. PODCASTS and June Thomas is senior managing producer of sleep podcast and we will be back with another episode. amicus next week with the first episode of our election meltdown series. Don't miss it

president President Clinton President Trump Senate White House White House White House Neil eggleston Rudy Giuliani President Obama United States Supreme Court Clinton Obama Administration Chief Justice John Roberts executive Vice President White White House Mitch McConnell
GERO RYTO ISTORIJOS | Pokalbis apie "Kino pavasar" su Algirdu Ramaka

GERO RYTO ISTORIJOS

10:16 min | 10 months ago

GERO RYTO ISTORIJOS | Pokalbis apie "Kino pavasar" su Algirdu Ramaka

"Hey y'all feel more mega a too close to the barricades. Gigs of data sparkle cannot papa. Saddam deductor David visually to create dokes. Cut this back allows to locate Talking Pappasito's could plow Kim given up this economic gain. She Carta domes- near the Santa Monica and laid allows us to locate Stanley. Cortez gave a viscous. Utica pelikan point the DVD LAKER. Mass of Mister Skin Daycare. Some net. They won't buy him. But this I talk it but you get the data. Maybe three green at Albertville Pitch missiles that have our neighbor Kokubo. Do they devote albums continues to create your luggage when you quit. Participate could be appropriate take net near Gulf Coast Casa dos to us by CMS. You're very capability in the lobby. Daca BLANKITA fillmore. They gave about a month. Vcm's terms cannot eat them show so they'll get legit over aluminium initially Recap ARROGANCE MUSTER commanders privacy to switch gears who've been dispatched chased and then gets up at the dance theatre openness Five ISHERS SHOVEL IN FORMALITY. Mauritania and again that the school is your cocoa gives you all of them Got It seems to be the lower CRISTETA. Then that's Okay. GotTa go informative Cook. Pharmacy Petitions Masters dividers. Oliver said Yeah. Somebody with guitar with the online at much tax. They're it The and keep it upon waters. Uh Festival at the Dynamo Chris. Departs goes by. Vce Frost Yaish commits the suspect that item a- It creates Michelle always the Shatt not much. Censorship lifted the Diorama of our keeping. Our number two I studied in Washington is a north. Okay liquor give net today at Of Nali you can't buy areas Tonight a multi and he gets messed up take But at the end of them lovely. Feel more you'll divided up at Schimdt Film from Atlassian at Shoreham number. I sack Monagas. Both the we got us Shit Connecticut Gerald. I'm gonNA cookies through tacori allow but you're not you log in there much. Bush that Legibly not much to me to keep kicking annoy bid to take daily KUNAS irregular give new Russia disappointing. So wound up yet to Quiapo Takashi. Municipal your retirement you. That film Audio Edith. Donald illness payer. The U Roger Otherwise Unique igt Mess Lakewood ice for a goal. Neither NOMO SEPARATED DECREE. Daca prestigious nearing Erica Virginia. To speak to believe what they are. Menaka to Nikki vis CALCUTA. Former BET. That's GonNa do Google me but my Tito snakes because you put the TV golden at the shanks and it's going to take bill you say to. The negative disposition gathered at the better product officer to stop by discipline today with a concrete eunice. W JUST THE PROUD OR KEEP. Concrete show facility cooks to mosquito Tanko from the same match up with multiple slip it could have imagined disrupt sitting with humor was peripheral mark off tears. Keep that guy. Is You go you daily busy? Partagas Matana situated Bloodshed telephone. They've got the this is Appalachia GALATA stuff. They would just stood it the Internet competitive they had a guy like know minus cinema out of Out of a killer Fonda out of go to these Plus former participating snack could get on with it. That are GONNA service momentous by MINNEA- ticket mess It'll get the Credit Bama citizen-soldier over. I just sat on the ground. Domestically northern politician did. I'm economic today if electrically film some Herodotou negative Ship left Parma centers about NASA team. Kart pretty hey the people so were they asked him. Ramirez data book at two Stocks Minia Cfs Tool must let that cannot. Today not will quit office. You never from my t to did. They could unethically is in the worst readable. Sogo for Whitney just most neck. I live probably got the big Christmas and Russia. Europe Ocean diversity among mean just centrally located open air registered autocratic Michika Navy night. I'm bullet disobeyed athletic. Erotica COUNTING ANSWER. The boy must menu buddy mighty and they tenacity michika. Thenia dollar features menu. That's risky must quit his birthday. Gala this this and that Nigga Yoyo shame at I took a misstep instrument of our dog fuel more ethically produced this cause for autism. One's yours together filming but there delic ago. We pay you to get ready to second rid of the car lobby. Gala Motto Sway. Grace Participates Kaido commend autumn concrete. Cassville unless I'm still most Michigan Law in Vijay's Celia Bigger I An imaginary Sheila's with the NFL feel mustard glaze partners Could his particular Chippewa Baker for much the casino actual looniest an extensive spoke. Show shifts at Vienna's Nukus got to go get the PEROTTI and Poche Him. No Yeah Gala. You can join us. And who's of our mental David Kendall yet got up at this. Officially is because his style that spoke shows they were filming. Ivanauskas was the leaker then at the bottom of both By metro film with debris comes the Turnpike. Now took me ass if much that give plus for myself netivot or snowy houses to disclu Iraq Elliott within until he comes to be on the Baras by the mono was togas rose Thirty is a wait until you come. Gareth talk seem believing you must deal? I'm presuming a guy like that also goes through coercion. To weakness stem cells goals must circuit yet Cleveland. Yesterday Valerie Must Internet Nossa. Orchestra does come out of a pilot certificates. You really scare by going to give birth to them cause then you'll look math appropriate. Arrow new film more talking most album a Santa Maria got him to reduce teen Just got him to the doctor. So we've based I got him up with the passive into those those countries. Turkey should add to your initial. Murkowski is prepared to chef. Yeah that's my little bit Nakhichevan at US number one key takamine diskettes igniting a program gala mytalk view today in particular with ochre commander Risque two min to minority that don't go the solar system routes in mind that She did my Mingo Lake. Openly Dima but pursued Vassallo puzzle appear in. Opposition will keep Danka Dharam Erie Sedan. The SOPRA MOGAYON SOGGY EAR. Ulaby pressman pass tickets. Leisler leaker lost the womb. Kiki keeps on because we'll tell you instead of moms get a sickness can be general director of the Moscow.

David Kendall Mister Skin Daycare Daca BLANKITA Albertville Cortez Mauritania Kim Stanley Atlassian Danka Dharam Erie Sedan Saddam Michelle Washington Vcm Google Turkey Gulf Coast Casa Quiapo Takashi Leisler leaker
Star Wars Holiday Special (Film) - GMMF

GamesMyMomFound

2:04:09 hr | 1 year ago

Star Wars Holiday Special (Film) - GMMF

"It they just want everybody and welcome to another movie special Gave my mom found if we're still alive when you hear this recording. I am like Hamilton and with me tonight. News Jedi Master Emmanuel Santiago. You eater begun Pankratz They have a whole podcast. Just you know back and forth for twenty minutes. What was better than the noise or the anticipation expect? I'm Kendall. I'm Kendall I'm on. You can either put you back or Han and so low on the phone Do the first hour minutes this movie. which is just an God and eh before we get there Kindle if you WANNA go first where people might know you from so you can find everything I do at Kendal. CAST DOT Ninja said. It's sort of podcast network. Vanity Project type thing. Where do lots of podcasts manual? How about you? Well you folks. inflamming Anthony Override U. DOT COM slash command lionheart or tweets that TV slash commanded lionheart. I'm currently doing a star wars playthrough. So you know says doing just hours now. Maybe I don't know I don't know what I'm saying. What are the SNES star worse? No the new one a fallen order apple and order. It's very good breath. Look good and Peter how about you you can find me at heater. BP Dot Com. Or if you look for the fifth civilization on Amazon Zonda is my first novel right on kindle or physical copies of this. I'll right now. We got the introduction. It's taken care of and I know you guys would probably a lot of any longtime listener. Who recognize all read other voices because they have been guest on other episodes? We're bringing you a real special tonight as you would entitle GonNa Say Star Wars holiday special you might be thinking all doing special star wars episode. We are. We're covering a movie that some people don't even know exists. I didn't go to look you know six nine hundred seventy the eight yeah at amazing you know quote unquote movie. It's not even a movie. It's so Michelle special. Yeah a variety show holiday special fuel thing which was never reappeared and never reprinted and the only reason we see is because of heroes out there that okay. Okay A podcast about it. Before in the history of podcasts. So great ideas new ground here. Okay before we start I want to just say I'm sorry to everyone in the podcast right now because this was my fault because I was the one that gave the idea to Mike a couple months ago. Didn't think the official actually do it but well it has. I had made a joke about it in the origin special back we still had. Aj Part of the group. And I got made the joke you listen to it and we're like hey can you do that. Count me and I'm like that okay and then yeah here we we are as I regret it for months now seven. I have been worrying that Mike. You remember what he said so for the record this holiday special. Why Oh man frigging good night? Hope the by is such a great song. Bea Arthur Art Carney. Yeah everyone's favorite star wars characters. Arthur Art Carney Ernie Harvey Korman Stars Kiro so Mike Hat. This is how much I know. This is how much I love Holiday Special Mike Catt you know what her name is. It is acne Turner. Oh you're th character act. Meena that is that is my cat's his name. You'll remember act media. She's the only one with any screen presence. Well going going by by your thing. I named my cumby that I called last night and poke him on soared. Be Arthur so we're almost there at these are all day there'd be this special is just well one. Anyone who who we all watch through all of us would want but one watch this youtube because that's the only way to watch it nowadays except somebody has us on DVD. Somehow I also like I have. Yeah I have it on DVD. I it is I am. I not surprised it's a bootleg. I mean it's a bootleg copy that I got at a at a comic convention at the. Yeah but yes I do have it on DVD. And so. I've got a question for you. Guys the version that you guys watch you guys all watch the same version. I'm assuming from that link. Did it have commercials No I had watched a version with commercials before though because it was I watched a before it was on youtube. Nope they used to have to go to like. I think it was on daily wire or something at some point our like video people. Just love of loading this. So that's out there so washed just as much as yours. Look as this May. Yeah that was a full TV recording. They had not edited down. It was all the commercials because I can tell you that was. It's like flying by wire comes on after this because you hear the end of it all the time Coming up next on so flying by wire actually it did have like a before it started at said that the incredible hulk will not be aired. Tonight Yeah probably you guys probably saw the version that I I watched in theater a theater. who was in the it was in the bar of a theater off uh-huh and they and they included the commercials in that kind which like people are like? Oh you've got to conclude the commercials for the full experience because you see that's the best part in the nineteen seventies commercials. That is the wrong way to watch it. The pacing is much better if you cut the commercials out. That's I mean that's why it's that tight ninety minutes instead of stretching out to two hours only in just five seconds long watching. The TV added a- any movie though. Because if you watch. TV movie on a DVD. It's still does like the fate of lie. That was a big thing in the seventies to fade to black so so a commercial could play during this part and this part in this in this thing specifically you assume too much because I have the DVD as well and that's how bad it has as troops in hardware wars on it. So I I guess that's the same. That's the same thing that mine has on it as it has and it has a Saturday night live sketch of Milbury. Want take no crap. What's his name? The guy that was on House of Cards Kevin Kevin Spacey Doing Impressions of celebrities as if they were auditioning for Star Wars I say got very. SNL Fang saw blow. Hello having so. That's still the opening theme for my other. Podcast for my star Really Nice. It was used that when I do star wars videos actually yeah it starts with It actually it's it's that and it's the The thing that'd be Arthur says at the beginning beginning to transmissions on rehearsing edited for. Yeah so we'll get to that. I think that's the best I mean. That's the best seen in this whole thing. This is a variety show in within the Star Wars Universe that also is part of the story of the Star Wars Universe. It makes nosing. It's okay so you guys have it on. DVD has anybody else watched it before besides the three of us. Because I have missed before the show I watched it this the sixth time I was going to be one. I is the first time I've wife saw four years ago. I saw a once the I don't I was. Yeah I remember watching it once but yeah I as I. I didn't notice well as you guys I've seen others comment about it and review it quote unquote. But I've never seen myself until today when I got one I think visit J. This is my fifth or sixth viewing because the year that I got it I watched it at my birthday and I watched it and I watched it on Thanksgiving with my in laws and then I get another podcast about it is sown you from your family is what are they gonNA kick out of it. That's not a Bob. macky is your outfit in in in Wookey porn scene it on the holiday special is that everyone tends to have the same reaction to a you. Wash it once and you're like what is this shit and then like a year later you'll want to show it to somebody for the first time it's like it's like a bad smell or something where you're like. Hey check this out like you just throw. It's this awful thing I'm that no one should enjoy but just throwing it out there. It's it's so much fun to show to show other people and I think that it's one of those things. It's Kinda like watching sports. It's like it's really boring boring if you just watch it by yourself but if you're around people and you have some drinks and stuff and you know you can you can just kinda talk through the boring parts and then then you know this is the part where he's like it's just a groomer and he's like you know I was. I didn't want to insult salt. You like being sold it myself and I'll be we're all media people with podcast so we can talk about it on air and deal with Shit that way force experience early in this terrible movie in quotation. They say the cat they stand at the way or was it. They say nothing you say Suk they say a couple of different ways within the special wasn't westminister way. I thought even in the original trilogy. Oh it's still faded a lot of. That's pretty much. The only thing the planet does is get baited. Yup as a planet like they don't really do anything else on catchy they just fight right off either like circuit corporation or a bunch of robots or a bunch of clone troopers the one negative overall impact that this holiday special had because it's otherwise excellent is ask is can she. The wookey plan plan. Whatever they wanted to cut what we're GONNA call it at? The time was going to be. The planet was going to be basically door but because of the because of the backlash after the holiday special they didn't e- walks instead which are way worse than anything in that. Yeah no you will. Also Royo seen return to the jet. I it's me it is. It is by far the worst of all the star. Wars are asking attached threats. They might say we're tackling club. It's the is by far at worst. It is by far yes absolutely as someone who goes back and watch all the Star Wars movie pretty much constantly throughout the year. That's pretty much all I do. I dread going to attack of the clones Donald. Plus we've we've we I for the PODCAST. We watch each each of the movies. One month did indepth up to review the only one. The only movie that I saw that I was disappointed in was returned to the jet. I why I'll say Jan is still has like some artistic Merritt despite it being like battle that is at the space battle like Luke's entire outfit whereas again that black outfit on the entire time correal's white the end like that is a good. That's good filmmaking in there the groundwork groundwork indoor ruins it wealth storms. You guys know that in the stores. Universal Legion is twelve late which is different than Star Wars. Also also if you if you're pointing your blaster stir at hostages and then somebody does something you just ignore you just keep pointing your blasted the hostages and get killed. I mean I would much rather watch for the four five six more times than ever watched this movie again. Exactly thank you tonight. A moment is when they have the fat storm super the Big Handlebar Moustache walking the background and like when they when rounding up all the troopers they bought this big like big ass dude with a handlebar moustache light very very platinum blondes. And it's just he's stands out so much compared to all the other stormtroopers like who the fuck is this guy. He looks completely different than I. Do you have a question for you guys. Maybe even it couldn't have been just me when I was watching the opening of this terrible thing. Why does I I just Mark Hamill just looked so off but you're wrong for air? Oh this is an accident the accident yeah okay. In nineteen seventy seven. Mark Cable is in a car accident and they had to actually read part of what happened with that is that he got a big scar along his face Which is why an empire strikes back? He gets attacked by a Wamba in the very beginning of movie to explain the scar on his face that that was all a re-shoot to explain the fact that he's got this big facial scar and so when they do the holiday special. They had to put a shitload of makeup on them and and put his purchase hair over spore head over space in like cover him with a high as eyebrows. Big I I on one of his eyes looks it looks like a candle but you know it looks a little bit like a stroke because one of his is is wide open and you can tell you is what like like painkillers or something and his otherwise droopy and he can't really he doesn't have full control over it yet. If you notice. Everybody was on painkillers and that Shit. Well it was on painkillers and other really Fisher Is We're not even not lying like we have well. You have a beautiful time. Capsule hear a very brief moment in time where where Mark Hamill was in a terrible car accident and it's based on all fucked up and Carrie official was doing tons and tons of blow Tony Montana Style and Harrison Ford had given up on acting like he like this. This is the moment where he stopped giving shit about everything while also having an affair with David Kendall said on one of his episodes when he was talking about this this Tara thing he's right though Harrison Ford in and did a decent job acting in this movie. I will say that He he only set doesn't look right. I probably did okay. Like there are still scenes where he looks like he's drunk. I would argue. That Harrison is just a naturally like he just has a naturally charismatic voice a lot of presents and he doesn't give a shit but just the nature of him being him. That's what makes them seem like a good actor so disagree degree because he did a terrible job in the force awakens. Well he like he didn't well he's also way older survived play or playing crashes that he caused sale like this. The thing is I just watched the I wake watch this Harrison. Ford does a better job in the holiday special than he does. In the force awakens. He was way higher back then so he had a lot more energy. I guess it goes both ways. Sometimes it makes you better. Sometimes it makes worse like back that he was doing cocaine and now he's smoking weed so it's opposite downers alleys there is. There's one part where I couldn't hear anything you guys were saying about about. They all look for those are listening we are have today is the day that made the joke in the beginning where like Microsoft escape or all crashing God where somehow getting getting disregarding happen that Joe Council so yeah Ohio's thinking over it's not clearing up the first ten minutes to the lookie family. We've just mentioned that doing noise. It's all we've mentioned his family all that we should mention about that. Insulate minute went on a full. It's like a full two minutes seek section where minutes it felt like I have an hour for me. Yeah it's fucking ten minutes the that asshole making an xm awful why okay so you have an excellent toy. It doesn't make sense. He's doing rampal whittled for him and he's making flying around rampal cheesehead. Ed Mayer reminded. Joe Awakens. There's no no way in rogue one there's a stormtrooper Dole so as true but they made that clearly. This is like this is looking empire license excellent. No it's it's made of wood. I was carpet. GRANDPA plot carved it carved the carved the t sixteen for loop. I just learned that in sixteen in new hope to I. Won't anyone how how old lumpy is is that He's as seven one hundred years old. White lumpy isn't lumpy. The KID ITCHY IS GRANDPA adjust GRANDPA. Malla is the bow mother thing we know for sure is that lobby is going through puberty. Because there's a line about the Harrison Ford is like oh his voice is changing. Yes that was thirty eight now in the opening scene when they have To all the wookey talking as the watch it with my wife because I made her suffer through this crap and she was narrating for it and it worked I she likes take out the garbage dumping you want. I WANNA play my tolley. And he goes over to grandma. They don't have to do it. I'm like this is great. Make Sense I'm happy. Tiffany did that because I agree. This movie is Great. The vast majority any of my life. Not even kidding. Sixty to seventy percent of the dialogue in this movie is given to the Woul keys and there's no subtitles titles like ten minutes. Sequences where walkies are talking to each other at. You're just sitting there like am I supposed post to understand yet. No other star wars sound kind of this little storytelling. It's star wars when she got like a good camp as you can see like the articulation of tobacco space. And you're like Oh he's clearly sad he said something that made him sat add and this is just like awful puppets that no joke. There are times if you watch a high quality version of this. There are many many instances where the will will opened their mouths and you see the faces of the actors playing. We'll he's under. Don't think that's true the no seriously. Okay I'm a little bit playing a character. This but the puppets look good. especially what's really good okay. So yeah they look But they still are horrifying there in say cheese. itchy is horrifying. I don't but I but I think that's you know. But he and and lack old people are scary but loved. We also looks horrified when he started me. He I will give you this. It's a horror movie okay. This is a horror movie. He'd have a horror movie themed playing over it instead of just the star wars song playing fucking the they had like a specific like an Orca. An orchestral on because because it's because it's not the star wars song that's playing most of the time it's the yeah the Princess Liason. I saw which they cut off at the end of the movie she started singing and they cut her off with the Star Wars theme. It's like this is. It's so amazing. How lazy this was like this was put together and I can only imagine that this was put together like last minute? They said we need to have something to keep. People's Minds Star Wars. Lucas was like we're going to start marketing. This shit out of this stuff. I want to a solid especially but we're not not gonNA we're not going to include. Jesus it's going to be a lifetime. Autry it's poetry it's GonNa Rhyme is going to be a blueprint for episode nine. When we in twenty years I like I like I? Don't tell me that I haven't seen the one that orients L. I.. Well what did it did. It made this Canon References Life Life Day this movie in Sola Solo references. This thing about hustlers Solos name. Being Han Solo comes from the holiday special win fuck in When it's like corneas it's like telling a Mama of Chewbacca Malala? Baca what's her name her name. Is Molly full names. Though I is the name of the mom they just call her Malla. Thank God at Tichy shop at tick is Itchy and lobbyists either logo were rump. Or what were the hell came up with this Shit George. Lucas was smoking something. That's from e e you stuff is where they all come from but yeah yeah the whole joke of hall and Solo. He's alone art. The Art Carney's like trying to tell Malla that she's got like on sale is on his way. And you've got a shaggy rug coming. Yeah it it by hand Solo. I actually like that's a joke. I did see the problem is I've watched this six times and so I'm starting to love it like I. I hate it and I've watched it so much that it's like it's got a hold on my head. It's it's like it's like what going back and watching if Eric Andrei made something in the seventies if Eric Concert was around and he somehow it had access to star wars. That's what it feels like like. It's it's an hour and a half. Tim and Eric Sketch about SARS. I have a question that either Pierre Kendall Cami is there a trading card of lumpy. I need to know oldest. Please don't tied. There's there's there's not at least not that. Not In the in in the in the decipher game. That player is still hope for this world. I'd say that I've seen bootleg be accurate figures. These people have made. I believe there's a fungal pop of the isn't there. One involve effect in his His cartoon outfit or something like that. I think you're in writing. The cartoon. Part was the best part of this. Whole thing's first the first appearance of Bobo faster and he is like a wacky cartoon there? I don't know he was pretty. I don't know I wanNA say bad ass but it wasn't you know up until the part where he leaves at the end Late seventies for late seventies cartoon. I mean it's a heck of a lot better than the than the Star Trek animated series. I've never seen that's that's right. Okay keep it that way. Of course. There's some there's some elements but like visually speaking the surcharge animated series. It's terrible it's so it's the there's there's elements of it that are good some decent writing scattered out and also like because thirty minute episodes. The pacing is a lot better than the than the originals gets a time. We should explain to people listening if you haven't washed price by the General Fritz of the General Plot Line of the holiday special because it is it's a variety show but it has it has like a a narrative framework that fits where and it's it's very important important to the holiday special issue. Baca are big anything get back to choose. Bacchus family owned cushy to celebrate life day which is something. Apparently every wookey celebrates and it would be like a big. It'd be a huge deal if he missed so they're trying to get back to Sheikh. And meanwhile the Baca the family on his cheek is dealing with these imperial guards that are just like barging and looking for a rebels and they kind of know that. Chew Baucus a rebel. But they don't know who he is or why he's gone they're just looking for like a quote unquote male wookey. The whole thing is the imperials and Han Solo and and Schumacher coming back and then like Luke skywalker and layer kind of thrown in in the background. LLEIDA helping hands so the thing about this the thing about that as an element of it is this is where we see what it is what the day to day life of what it's like to be on a planet it is occupied applied by the imperials in the movies. We always hear that are bad. Guys Capri never never see. We never say atrocities that they're doing the thing is the atrocities there. Aren't that bad. They're just kind of being like slightly annoying at best. I'm not paying for this. Remove well but let's be real. They were kind of Asshole to the kid. They broke his his little stuff for me. Even Beta was looking. got them legs like expensive. It was like a little computer that didn't work and they were just like Alice. This don't know oh man but then like yeah. One of the imperial guards goes into Kearney shop. And whose name is Dan Trader Dan. That guy should be a higher officer because of a voice alone. He's he's like a respected merchant on CA- she because he apparently has some say with the imperials what she has some level the reputation not necessarily with the stormtroopers but with the actual imperial guard and officer's got to be one of the few and his. Yeah he has said he has any like it's up boy it he's just like Oh. That storm super stole it from me and right after the hills and like yeah. That sounds about right. You see the guy who sells crappy trinkets on kitschy. Well he trusted human more than anybody else. I guess over his own soldier Throughout this variety show in quotations different little scenes but the one that one that comes up early on tonight that has stuck with me and I feel like everyone who seen this or knows of it knows the wit wit stirred or stirrer we. We're her powder stir stir so entertain. Okay I didn't realize how racist at was until now like I watched this four years ago I didn't catch on it but it's pretty damn racists now look at it it's ex okay. Explain because remember the USO. Well one. It's it's well one is just one is drank which is not really racist or anything. But it's the Guy Art Carney I think are right or someone else. That's our report from the leasing. Saddles I neither I should but famous slice s comedy comedian from from the cerebral at show sixties. And worrying I'm wearing black face in that scene. I'm where I see I'm gonNA PULL YOU UP I. It's not black face to face but cameras were so bad. If I would I wouldn't I wouldn't call it black Friday. Yeah it's it's like gold bronze but this is the thing that actually happens with like there's some old episodes of like twilight zone to the fuel brought up. They thought the black face but the actual paint was gold. It's just impossible to tell on. Like sixty or seventy year old cameras that don't also yeah bring that up two so talking about how lazy this is. The cameras are they. Change camera is so much like there was no. I don't think there was any DP on this movie. Talk is see that very clearly when they do the beyond her bar scene. That is the best the best thing that that in the old saying. There's you've you can tell because the basically the original director of this was David Kamba and he laughed probably smart. He left and and Steve Binder oversee binder. Who did a lot of other TV specials variety shows? It's like what he's known for so he took over and so you can tell like what parts of it were shot by. Oh Combo at what parts were shot by binder because it looks. It's it's a stark difference. There's a part of the end where suddenly suddenly it looks like. It was shot on film like high Def. And it's like what the fuck. Why does that that is a belong in this all this other fifty-nine reality but hey okay so yeah it's like every now that the camera work will just really shitty and then really good in a really shitty and really good? Okay so I mean the other thing we were kind of saying but the cooking thing so I can get stiff. It also just texted me and she said because he's she's an alien out on my brain winter racist racist but you can see that she has for arms instead of two. You will probably the generals as she's stirring whipping As a chef Gorman has to give her official title is just more which is whipping stirring more and more arms popping out which is as you would when doing some Bonte whatever the hell it was. What's cooking Banta Bantu stew? I think that's what I'm going to start calling you from now on suspended pass. I'll take that I'll take it can use that nickname for for any game. Now just put it to you here at the do here live from the holiday special. Okay Gophers I. I hate the universe stupid when I first saw stupid seraphic. You're wrong I like no. You're backwoods here. Yeah Oh yeah damn nerf herder not talking about the cooking thing. I'm okay with Oh you need to complain man so you you gotta you gotTa there it's Jill. He's doing Julia Child Impression Shepherd. I wanted to say you know. Relevant to the discussion Robinson nineteen seventy-eight probably not nineteen. You are just going over my head. I was born in ninety one so I have no idea what Julia child was an old lady who did cooking on the TV and had that like high pitched British voice like what he's doing. Also if you remember those shows I always remember remember like basically thinking like if I was actually going to try to follow along with one of those shows I would be like frantic. Just like Malla is it's like so relatable. Yeah and here's something that you can find at your refrigerator out golfing or For People like Emanuel. Who Don't know WHO JULIUS HOUSES THAT IS A? That is a personal worth looking out. Because Julia Child has a very interesting life. She worked for like the S in World War Two. Why don't Julia Julia Julia Julia or watch the again movie about her? That is a baking with Julia. That like I I think that was it. It didn't go into the fact that she was a fucking spy at all very leap. It's yeah we're talking. She worked for like equivalent of the CIA turned over to go. Anything can do to not talk about this movie. Yes the Akra thing where he cuts himself. Yeah that's the thing Peter. Do you want to take over the best. Well one another dumb part of his movie. I was going to make a joke. But with virtual morality fantasy program. She watches us. O or not update Soppe. Now Dan Carol a Academy Award nominated actress. Tony Award winning actress And I I think the first is Thursday. The first really minority actor annulled star at All Star Wars. Yeah I think you're right it's Landau Endo because art carney's character was gonna be our seeing what I know that I don't know I might be making that up but I think he was bait ever. I heard heard it somewhere. Look look all of these facts any facts that I that I save holiday special. I probably heard on another podcast where this where there were four to five guys yelling going at each other one. I'll bet y'all now I've heard that as well I've heard of that are already was either supposed supposed to be Landau Orlando was originally going to be based on head based on him. Yeah I just got lucky enough to get Maybe Williamson Adam Sandler Ode that on absolutely. Yeah I mean that's that's certainly for me is the most cringing part tired of the of the show Black girl by the way just Just died about a month ago. So it's kind. It's it's even weirder looking back on that. Yeah I mean. Isn't it issues. Basically watching poor is living room. Oh I'll say with went like is gap at around. So so that's interesting. You say that because I think every time I watch it I think like is this. Because I see the Sarah's it was holidays specialists something that like was is a it's a it's a snapshot of what it was like in one thousand nine hundred ninety eight so like these types of variety show specials. Did they have have like weird. Like you know sex appeal things where people got really really excited. You know was it like Baywatch or whatever wasn't wasn't until the night for the whole family it's for the kids got something don't weird eared audience and why is why is why is itchy. Fantasy a human woman. I don't know I guess you know. Oh He's an old old rookie. He's had he's had it all he's you know he's very sexually experimental as a as a young man young rookie and so you know. He's just he's out there as an adult. He just doesn't give a shit anymore. He's like in his heyday. That'd be great is if for any reason I would love. I would love love if at some point during the golden girls. itchy walked episode. That's all I can think about watching him and like knowing be Arthur was in this movie seeing them together. Onscreen as some sort of like Golden Earl Girls Cameo. We don't really know how old itchy is. Though I mean he could looking live for what hundreds of years he could only be like twenty years old and Chewy or whatever somebody say I I think that was somebody that was making stuff up. Seven hundred everything around in this piece. I said yes. We should all have the wikipedia page open so well I just facts on hands okay. So I'm checking this right now. Because I wasn't sure when she walk met Han Solo. He was two hundred years old. So it's entirely possible that that lumpy is like forty seven or something. Four Hundred Years of age and Itchy is two hundred twenty five years old so because I mean when when to bucket meets Hans Solo. He looks pretty young. He looks like a twenty year old. Wookey I I think he's very Freddie hundred-year-old wookey freshman year always smells like five went dogs incentive. Seven I love that. ITCHY has a bald spot on his stomach. He's going ball because he said all this terrifying elder there's something underneath the hair. They hate it I really do I. Okay yeah talking about the fucking care another problem I always have with. This is that in this thing. I don't even want to call it a movie anywhere. In this thing that exists Malla the mother. He wears an apron. Yes at some point. All the cookie is show up and they're wearing red robes. If so does that mean that. CHEWBACCA is naked the rest of the time the closer handmaiden. I mean just because you just because you choose to work. I mean cult. I mean yes he is well well first of all it yes. He is naked but culturally speaking surly. A requirement to to them to wear clothes is their social requirement. That Kabuki wear pants. I mean Malo wearing a malware apron. That's to keep the food. The raw meat from getting in her hair. Imagine imagine that imagine explained. The ropes explained the cloaks ceremonial okay. It's only US honestly. It's because they couldn't afford to make full lookie costumes for all of the work. They can only afford to make masks that I mean. That's what happened. Planted the so be honest love for something like movie to come out and be like yeah. We didn't get any more jobs for actors. That are all naked. Because we didn't want to spend the money on combining a wardrobe so in this universe it's socially acceptable for everyone. Today can win where we call up Josh. Lucas and justice are asking him all these questions. She's like Hey George. So what was the process about Giving her an apron and and all these rookies those ropes and while they're a aw notice at heart aid they decide to use the robes Originally okay no it's that's okay. I don't understand why in Jefferson starship. The ban picked for this terrible special vans. The bigger question is why did they cover up with glowing pink things all the instruments except for one on the left one of the guitar when they show the shot of everybody buddy like if you if you look closely everyone is covered with the pink thing except for The one on the left guitar like it's got. Aw Man camera they left a spot out. For some reason my favorite part about the whole Jefferson starship. Plot line is that it's for art. Carney just show an imperial officer to distract him from searching. Now it's like hey check out this game so after they make that call and at one point I thought OK. They're just have a phone hidden there. Nothing special like they have it open. They don't close it until a stormtrooper come in live occupied planet. Like you know. And you're talking to rebel high just a little bit or make sure it's Kohl's old man. The troops came in the door weather in Zaire. Nobody was paying attention. Listen to what they were doing regarding this holiday special because then you see our Arthur Karney just closing it like. Oh we have this well. There's a part where like the apparel officer because at the end and they're sitting there like what are we gonNA do. I know I'll say something. And that's what he's like. Stormtrooper ran off to the hills. But he says that like I'll give them credit they they add a line. That's like This is now a two-way call but it just as soon with every call in the Star Wars Universe is that you have to click accepts super year part B. on airport. Well that's special. That's the special talk to the guy that looks like grandma parkin phone. Yeah the guy who had a grandmother are fucking because debt. Yeah who was definitely supposed to be grandma art at some point in the script. They wrote Grandma's Tartan and then somebody else said over. He's dead end up. Is he like yeah. He's dead Shit get this other guy. I guess we do get deleted scene with the BAITER. And she's basked in very eighty yard Dialogue album yeah. All the surplus is reused as reused video right. Yeah but there's a lot of yard. That scene was eighty yard in the in the movie to to get to the archives. But it's also all the scenes when they're in the millennium except when Hans Solo sitting chewy. And you could tell. That's new. Do I swear that background did not look like a dozen new hope. What here's something wrong with the senator sitting on the way it moves as leg God? We're moving in this chat. I mean I was just like what. Why is this all just reuse a set they use but it different people or I mean I don't understand it? That was yeah. But they're kind of like shooting space east. You can tell all that was straight up from new budget. No by a million a million for the budget that million into into the actors that you brought back all the actors in the arts steam machine or looks like I would. I would help fight. Fight the rebels. But I've gotta fix this machine. Darth vader will just have to wait. Also the scene with pre insist on the goddamn space tax writing an a brave independent woman of a new hope is doing space taxes access. I guess that's what it looks like. There was no it doesn't they. Don't say look that's literally really what it looks like like Here in Perico we used to have like a comedy show where there was a one of these tax people doing the paperwork and whatnot and it literally looks just like that. I know that that's what she's doing space. Unless you're about to say here in Puerto Rico we do SPACEX and there are space empire all hail Puerto Rico's nor Emmanuel Vassallo uh-huh. That line is more true now than it would have been years ago I just gotTa say that. Sometimes it feels like that statehood now. Is that what I'm here. We I mean to be a state. One of my favorite parts of this whole special is when Carrie Fisher princess. I always just go fish. No later calls in and is like asking asking them about life day and how hot is and he's like. Oh Jeez oh that's strange and that's the end of it is more than we pug and for or something like that. I don't know I thought they would be either by now. It's weird that they aren't some what can be keeping them. It's like you know there's a war on right like you're fighting a war you know that you're in a star war. Ride people are dying. They know that Hong Kong handled self. They're a little bit concerned. She's a little bit concerned but she doesn't want his family to be. You know now over to panic you never tell them the odds us. He's got lucky dice with him but he took those here. We go here in the scene. No I don't think that I've ever seen the Goddamn lucky dice from the last yet that I actually they They earn toluene intil aside Solo. The lucky dice were a thing in so one of the books. I want to say that with unlike the new hope they want a new hope that they weren't like elaborated. Maybe didn't say here's a my here my way they were just like a thing. That's yes these it was before everything had to be explained the so it's just like a nice little set piece in the background like a hints at who on Solo was lies simpler time. I WANNA say I don't remember what it was. One of the story about how he got he used ice to win the Millennium Falcon from Landau. Even though in Solo used ice to win the million volumes although up for Landau he just wanted a car game but he doesn't have a car. It's hanging out. You didn't happen anymore. Any en even I mean the the happen but the dice are stealing the movies and they made them such an important part of it. It was such an easy thing for Solo. All you need to know is that the dice are important. I think we've established that all of this Solo. Hello there like how did he get the Millennium Falcon. He wouldn't a card game. It's like do you not Mitch the Throng Trilogy so then what the fuck are the dice for I. I don't know I'm saying that I'm saying that. The Han Solo Adventures or especially the Han Solo trilogy wasn't even candidate in Nineteen ninety-two new fucking Christ. I Love Summers are always start with. Yeah Yep that's that's Stephen Cannon for very long yet it's still cannon saw most of its cannon what holiday special official Royal. No it's not. You are making that up the battle your battle of Cacique. They did not destroy his episode. Three very specifically want to keep issue because it's valuable resources the life debt book in the new cannon aftermath. It's it's an awful book but they do they they. They do liberate because she cannot in that movie or that book find out. There's some secret candidate might knows about worker. She was destroyed. The only only thing is that There was that one story where the walkies built a star or they were this lately. Enslaved but it's not destroyed but then there was the original story of that. The desktop blew up the planet where it was built on. That was that was was that was the original story or the been the EU cannon. It was built like the world of despair it was built by like wacky slaves. They blew up its planet. They blew up the plant. You if you look at The whoopee yeah right now but it's still not complete because they went back because she existed in the EU a bunch of times. It's always been I've just ACA. She will break. And it's pronounced Kashif people when you Kozinski Cheek. The first thing that came up or Google can hear what we're saying if it was destroyed him up my Google so I'm not the only system I think it says it's like it's just because you have google that like six times enough. The middle of else prevents shins of Sheikh were destroyed in retaliation for their acceptance of several Djeddai who oppose DR K. Large portions wins but not the planet. So what was the planet in a frigging rogue one that got blasted the death star but it wasn't destroyed completely. You gotta get off Dennis. It is yeah yeah And then the other one is crap A yellow was crap Oh God what was the last planet they were on. Yes yes I yeah. It's it's narrow. It wasn't destroyed. It was just like yeah because Alderman is the first planet to be destroyed by deduct star. Yes can autoclave speaking. It's the first one to be completely destroyed. Yeah completely and then like five work planets and by stark surveys. Okay and Wikipedia. It says says that you walk a lived on Cachique with his family until resuming his adventures with Ansaldo prior to the host neon cataclysm. which is what happened with Star Killer brazen the force awakens wiggins? So it's as the force awakens. It's all around state also to Michael's do believes leaves it destroyed but I wanNA talk about. This is Mike Is Racist against refused fused student staircase high solid with my own eyes. One day up Cacique the whole China Dalai Lama thing. Where like they voted? The the dialogue is real. This is Mike. Mike Refuses to alder onto we had mentioned and a little bit about the cartoon. But I kind of what. I WanNa talk elaborate more on that so in the middle of the special they have lumpy. Why why the troops are inside the house and to distract people on the headphones owned and he starts watching the cartoon which we all get to watch there? There's something an off-white especially everyone's just raw luke spatial grap didn't pulled it. It's a it's a stylized thing because it's the guy that did heavy metal hit. It's a stylized thing but all the faces says are stylized differently exactly like especially how Solos lose has it looks like Han Solo is missing all of his facial facial muscles and bones. And then somehow luke got them and also Lucas wearing a third outfit in this in this special. He's in the the beginning when you see him. He's wearing the orange jumpsuit from new hope in this part. He's wearing the gold jacket from the ceremony in third parties wearing the original white costume in the end of his special. That's a that's a filmmaking technique right it's it's to show that his character has evolved and changed their. It's called selling tollways Mike all out there. I mean it's never used to sell toys. This is about character development like uh-huh I have all from the seventy he's but I don't think that I have in my hands. It's not real then. Okay got it. It's not real. No ever they they would never debase star wars to sell toys. I don't know what your thought I'd never been a thing. Didn't have toys right. After Kendall saying Oh saluted there were specific toys specifically made for the for the I mean the for the for the holiday special. I mean the the turnaround was would and what are taking too long to produce them for that. Yeah and later. They had toys like they made like twenty years later. There was like a commemorative toy of something that I don't know there's like a little lake. Wink wink nudge. Yeah Disney finally admitting that they did this thing exists. Okay but I WANNA talk about. I do like the bubble fit in this because I just like go with it and like the both at shows up. I don't know who he is and I want to say an empire strikes back don't they. They Noble Obolensky bounty hunter. Yeah okay so this okay. This is the first Harry. Well known bounty hunter isn't he. Yeah this is the first. ONSCREEN APPEARANCE GRANTS EVOLA hints. Also yeah like both at. He's not like I don't say he's not like completely developed as a bounty hunter but he's clearly a very good well. He's like this like meeting. I hate talk about this in terms of actual story. This is heading meeting Darth Vader Darth vader the officially hiring him on as a like a rotator for the fire. Oh and a spoiler that I'm going to kind of say that I didn't realize until spoilers mandatory mandatory which has already been out for a month at this point. Oh let me let me take off my. It's not a spoiler. Maybe that okay. Well this thing gets Bob. That's right away so that that fully hat on the back with the or you're talking about it has that same type of rifle in the mantle or and I was like oh I'm pretty sure different character. I don't know for sure so different character but I thought that was cool all these years later. Yeah don't they. There's three references in in that first episode. There's there's Horatio Sanz saying life day there's the yeah the four gun. Then and the Nick Nolte's character it makes reference to the The like beasts that Boba Fett riding in the The the dinosaur looking thing okay. Okay but just because you referenced. Something doesn't mean that that thing from wish you reference it's cannon because they reference Tara's Kassian Solo a star wars story that doesn't mean masters of terrorist Kathy's Canada one hundred. It's totally out story. Two masters of Terrorist Causey like they create the. That's that's actually you know that's the one bad thing about that game because it's otherwise awesome. They also I I mean like they like star wars closed-doors and rebels are both cannon and they both they both have references to nightside the overpumping but nice is not gaining they also challenged or banned. Which I'm still fucking pissed core ban? It's more van and it's totally different. And we invented a new the plan. We had to get rid of this one point if for some reason because you I didn't know that yeah it's real dumb. They go to Cora Ban now in star wars the clone in words. I WANNA say the last season in fact I know we're not the latter episodes it's in the episodes of season. Six season Saturday's coming out. Yeah Oh yeah. The Lost Episodes L. E. Bachelet's at season was called because like six episodes that were partially in production when Wisconsin of portion weren't able to finish an episode about But with that as a child by learning to be mandatory. Because I've seen footage it's really cool looking but yeah there's an there's a series of episode where Iota is learning how to do force ghost thing This from the ghost of Gone Jen for like this disembodied voice and hands. Yeah and he's like he's like you must go to more a band and I was like what the fuck is more and it is core ban. They just changed the cages on 'em an added a D.. And they change the planet entirely. It's no longer like a graveyard. said it's like a black planet with nothing on and that's got like a single tomb or like like some kind of tomb looking set like structure. It's so that's a dumb anyway. Oh four is the jet. I Still Republicans it was the first. That's it I'm GonNa shut up bitch tonight. Dirt dirt was alright eight. Not You know the thing about the thing about the legacy books and in the field republic stuff. I didn't really consider that Canon like anyway because they didn't have anything to do with continuity. Let's never yeah never can't plus it takes place like two thousand years of the past doesn't really matter right. That's what that's what I mean like like by a core band was and I Paul Paul Anka. Some of the best stories told in the Star Wars Universe by you do second of all fan in that universe is really interesting because it's like a planet that's just covered in like sand and debris and desolation it's like a planet that guy because the set went there. It's really interesting. So it's Ju Yeah it's like you except Juku was like just another desert planet whereas Ghorban was it's like hinted that at some point it was a thriving the planet that turned to to death whereas Jackie was always just another Tasmanian out in the middle of nowhere yet jack who was tattooing two point. Oh you mean Juku was only there. He can remake a new hope with new characters. But I I haven't played. I haven't played the the video game. Juku Aku was always a desert planet even before the battle of Juku. Yes I I've played. I didn't yeah and Star Wars Battlefront to you how you play in the battle of Jacuzzi. It's like the desolation and stuff was because of the was because of the battle of Juku. No it was always a fan. Theories are better. The J.J Abrams writing. And now we're gonNA got third place. Your Fan theories are just the over public. Though the fan theory we're sheik was destroyed in our universe. Cash Roy was once a thriving amazing city covered in green green a family. We should talk about when they go to the Tattoo world when they bring up between stupid movie where chief become in the special where on this hive of Villainy skull myself. A weird though because it's live footage page for everyone to see but it. Yes and it's supposed to be imperial propaganda but it's clearly people Be Arthur been like they pay. Oh well it's just like it's just like the old Russian propaganda where they where they showed where they showed that That poor the poor people in America were overweight and you know backfired. It has my favorite line in the entire special. And it's no matter how many times I will watch this. It still makes me laugh out loud. Whatever I hear it where it's there's talking about Pennsylvania and now for you footage from tax Wayne in a look into the lives of those who live there so that you might be more appreciative of your own? It's it's the stupidest propaganda saying this ever ever. I love this special predicted reality TV. Yes except maybe like it'd be like if it was like footage from like like Syria And it was like look how good you have. These people are in the middle of a war. And you're fine. It's so it's so like patently. Empire Bullying Evil Evil. I love it. Look how shitty tattooing is. You have nothing to complain about friend. Goodbye read that's all. You could not have gotten that Roy Moore wrong good night not goodbye. It doesn't say goodbye actually specifying saying goodbye. Just see how much the tune of a song from I think eight crazy nights instead of the song. I also had a couple of beers since we've been trying to record this mess so that might be over then homework town friends. I legitimately like that part. I like I just got her bay. Arthur look be Arthur is. If I didn't like this part at all really I liked it more than the others but I still prefer to cartoon. It's like the the weird break rake from. We're going to show you how shitty life on and there's an imperial curfews so the reason that life on socks is because of the empire so I don't know why they'd be showing it's propaganda bad. Everyone has to get out of Arthur's bar was. She owns not not the most Eisley as league answering a but also definitely so okay. So that's Traumas Cantina time bartender there. Yeah the bar is. It's a twenty four hour bar in still the imperial curfew and everyone's gotta go home and no one wants to leave and they just ignore the Arthur who's like asking them the ball Aleve and saying we're friends. We were friends home. Oh I love when she's like own remember that time. Oh I don't think I've met you. Yeah but it's like you you were you guys. Were complaining about like sets probably like this is this. Is The CANTINA SAT. This is the costumes those aliens at it several several costumes for that they must have like filmed it but like that. That scene was cut or something like that. Like the rest of the budget. When you're your giant rat rant Samurais it took me by your answer? No it's it's yeah how. How men this such a good thing? I did a Christmas album a couple years ago and I did a cover of this on that on that album. I just was double checking. It is the the song is not available on my band camp but if you listen to the full album on my youtube YouTube dot com slash Kay hallman. That's K. H.. All I man. You can listen to Christmas creep and here my cover of it. I also did a UKULELE cover. Love it yeah. I do Ukulele cover of it yesterday today on a Ukulele. The game you often you hear Ukulele cover of like like Jazzy late night lounge song. Oh it's like one of my. It's one of my favorite songs that I've ever done. I Love Lounge music. It's something about the Arthur's singing it. It's got that like it's got the it's just the Cantina Song it's it's just lyrics were added added to the Cantina Song in starts well. It's it's not lyrics 'cause they don't they play the riff but then the actual but then the itself is different versus different. Yeah the chorus of the song. The melody changes to play the Cantina song but it plays it like slowly so that you know it's a sad song mm-hmm it's so so I say like this. Feels like an Eric Andrei sketch. It feels like somebody knew what they were doing and then intentionally made it weird and bad on purpose as a joke. Oh I just I. It's a great. It's a terrific song. Be Arthur does a terrific job that the guy with the hole in his head to drink drink. I think is hilarious. Okay Carney or the same guy from again requirement. Yeah I well. I'm not doing very good right. I with who it plays Crumlin or as the author calls them mistakenly Perelman. He's the guy that pours the drink into top of his head whereas I guess yeah he's also so in love with Arthur she said go ahead. I forgot what she says. He's he's talking about Hallard. I'll be waiting in six words. There six words you said to me that melted my heart. I never thought I'd love again. And so you set those six words to me. And she's like all right drunk asshole astle get out of here she just plays the Arthur C is just be Arthur in this movie right and she does. She's got like it's one of those moments like. Where are you can tell who has chops in something like this? You can tell who has acting chops and who like really has to work at it. Because Harrison Ford does an excellent job she does is an excellent job I think carb Cormon and the other Guy McCartney I think do do like I mean. They do what they're trying to do. I mean Art Carney I his character is A. It's a weird choice for star. Wars is just art carney. He's just playing same with Arthur. Arthur is just she just being bea Arthur in this shit like movie she might be here and older girls. And that's and that's but that's the I mean that's I mean that's why you have celebrities that do the you know they're doing their stick and they do it. Well as opposed to yeah as opposed to mark Hamill Camel and Carrie Fisher. Who's WHO's WHO's acting is like not the best or the yeah like like not grant Tarkenton who who He's doing his best grand market now right like he knew he knew going in that he was not Peter Coaching and he never could be but he gave it his is all I. It's interesting it's just interesting to see stuff like this when you kind of see who kind of who six out as as this is actually a pretty good performance. Let's be completely on. His Carrie Fisher did not know where she was. No absolutely I love Carrie Fisher and she is like my spirit and all but but she had no idea that she was even filthy. Well the she only agreed to do it if she could sing. You can see her her coke finger anger in this mission that yet. Carrie Fisher allegedly allegedly allegedly alleged vicary Fisher. Herself is that she had a massive the problem and at some point she puts her hand on Harrison Ford shoulder and you can see that one of her nails is significantly longer than her other fingernails and for the kids out there. That's called a coke finger. You use it to scoop coke. You know we're codes Diet Coke Coca Cola Diet Coke into your to get that sweet diet coke. Okay I gotTA allegedly. There's another part that I didn't catch right away. Wait until later so that little communicator thing. That lumpy spends a whole half it like ten minutes watching the video. How to put together before we talk about like what the hell was he a was he a robot? The character doing the instructions was a robot but it was live breaking down. It was a robot that was like an instruction a video or something. Why not you know? Redo it when he's not broken because in this is the best take they had I bet even get outta. Here's our at the end of that. Instruction video he he just put his head on the table and just pushing stuff away like take me out of the shit. I would bet you anything that he did that. Completely Straight and some editor somewhere because it's not him. I'm doing the emotions. It's the editing. It's edited that footage. I guarantee you. He did that. Straight and some editor somewhere was like. Hey I can kind of do this thing with editing. Branding that makes it look like you're a robot was like yes that's going in the movie and he was like No. It's just something I do as a little joke. It's not that they're like walking. I can't wait so so you're saying it was just going to be an instruction video with no jokes. I think it was just. I think they were planning on doing something I I bet. Good money editor told somebody that he could do this and they said okay. You're doing that and he immediately regretted it. I I don't know I I I mean it's a so the thing is I watched. I watched when I was growing up. I watched a lot of sonny and Cher. I watched a lot of other stuff like this. Yes I mean. Granted this is a you know not the ideal execution of a variety hour like this but I mean this these kinds of sticks. These kinds finds a note gags. I mean that's the thing that would happen a lot in one thousand nine hundred ninety eight. Yeah but those old shows they were usually like wive. Aunt's ads like bear planned out. But it was like I like this is live and we've got ten minutes until the next act is ready so just like do your stick for a while until we can get their next act on stage with this. This wasn't live. This was filmed and edited. And somebody had to say yes. This is good print and ship ship it so just filling fill in two hours of television. I guess yeah. If you've got two hours of television outlook I I mean. I know there were there. Were behind the scenes. Got Like there's a lot of stuff in this either either that I like or that I think is is it has aged poorly poorly because lots of TV was bad back. Then this is. I'd rather watch this episode of Gilligan's island. Well let me ask you this because I as I as I watched this for for the sixth time I wonder to myself I wondered. I wondered how why would have done this ally wondered how why. Why did you were doing if your life? I know that was the first that was the first forty minutes. The next fifteen minutes remain wondering how to how to make this workable by not doing it at all never or at least any through the public. Well I came up with. Two solutions are three solutions. Rather burn the whole thing solicitor burn this whole thing down. Yes solicited when you shoot twenty minutes with the footage you realize that Shit you should another twenty minutes you realize it's not getting any better and you say well we either need to completely change this or shutdown. That's lucid one. Solution to is. This could have been alive variety shale and then the fact that everything was falling apart and broken would have been part of the funniness of it and probably would have made people like enjoy it a lot more knowing that these people were trying their best and the smoke machine just kept blowing smoke directly into Luke's gaping car-crash wound. It wasn't that bad but I'm exaggerating but step it. This was alive it could. It would have been better. My third solution was thinking about how I would do this today. If this this could survive today and I'd have to be Eric Andre Sketch or Tim and Eric thing where it was like intentionally weird and bad and that's the joke or like I was wondering if Daisy Ridley and joined by came out and they said we're doing variety show several house vote vise of skywalker. What could they do what? What acts could they have within the Rizal skywalker holiday special? Oh never never okay. No wait wait although although you said that wasn't there like an atom driver doing the Kyle Wren. Yeah yeah his DS issue undercover boss. Plus get that. Yeah that's that's good to Larry's funniest things. SNL has done a long time. Adam drivers is a better actor than most of these people is Great. He he plays that so straight and so funny. It's one of my favorite. SNL sketches of all time. So I was thinking like that would be something like that would be perfect within a modern variety. Show for Star Wars. You can have like a you could have a stand up. Comedian come out and do you like a ten minute set. Fifteen minutes set and the whole set is like in universe in the universe and fans would get it and it could be really funny and I mean I mean the robot chicken specials did did you know they. They basically did that. I mean you. Yeah like bring bring Seth Green and SEGMA- McFarland on and have them do a whole robot chicken sketch in the middle of it. I was thinking about what would be in it today. and would it be worthwhile to make and I came up with an idea in my head that I think would be funny. I think would be worthwhile to make today so you don't think about him driver. What we're saying here is Hashtag remake? The holiday special official religious holiday special loving out. That's come out. It could come out. Great like the robot chicken specials or could come out terrible elect the family guy special either way either way it works if it's good the only the only problem with it is if it's if it's okay if it's average average then it's a failure the only way it's a failure if it comes out and it's good people will love it and if it's so bad that it's unwatchable people will love that it's so so bad that it's unwatchable people will love that say it's true to the original holiday special Jewish Disney plus would would make would release the the like a a high quality legit high quality version of this just for even just for like even just for historical sake like there needs to be this this. This is something that there is a high quality version that exists Carrie Fisher had it. She put it on at parties when she wanted people to leave. The IT's true. That is a story that I heard on another podcast. Five people were yelling at each other. Just one listening out advise our listeners to go out and listen to any any instance of Carrie Fisher being interviewed or appearance on right before she passed away issue was on a British panel. Show that I love gold cats. That was hilarious. Ashi cats and she is just like the funniest. CBS woman on the planet to link. Send it to me. I'll put it in the show notes. Okay yes there's just so many great interviews of receipt like Admits Midst Holiday Special. It was like yeah it was shit and she's like yeah. I just had fun doing it and I don't really remember doing 'cause I on Coke. Allegedly there is a part in this movie. Ride had the biggest smile L. and I'm sure I couldn't have been the only one I'm curious. A feeder smiled this partout. When he picks up the commune the stormtrooper communicated indicator when he realized that communicators said all the other troops home because they got baffled by a little fucking Wookey that somehow hacked in their system and he picks it up and he throws it and lumpy? We just starts getting all upset and I just had the biggest smile fuck lumpy. I can't be the only one that was you are your answer. My you're at imperial stormtrooper. Mike I like the Wilhelm Scream and I thought that was an Mac Dick showdown between bass. That part has passed guidance. You Tire Star Wars Saga Not even episode one Guan Geno be one versus so intense difference. That's the one you go to. Okay got that stuff. I thought about awesome having a scout troop around the soldier. Oh Yeah I mean not that much different than that though like they. Just throw off the belt. Any I mean it was like bio it is him. He throws himself off the balcony. If those fair part of that is the sound guy clearly forgot to put in any sort of sound effects there And so he's silently taps his shoulder wax the gun out of his hand and you hear the balcony cracked. But you don't hear any noise from the trooper himself. You hear the balcony the wilhelm scream. It's like it's like the gun hitting the ground doesn't make noise Hudsell. It doesn't make him so I can't tell well if this was like this was either rushed or lazy or both or oh perfect combination of like people that were overworked and did did not give a shit about making something good it was I i the the issue my understanding of the of it is. Is that There were there were production troubles and that it was an perhaps it was overly ambitious. Well that's that's certainly one way of laying it. I think. I don't think anybody wanted to there. It wasn't it wasn't a situation where people didn't care or where I mean it's late for this George. Lucas had a vision for this. I think the the George Lucas well. That's that's always a matter of debate because there's two stories there. There's the stories of the the production production team of this and yours leukocyte and I tend to lean towards the productions team. Scientists Bro Production Teams. George Lucas dailies from the holiday special missile. They sent him daily. You know every day that's why So let him go let him know the production was looking like let him know what everything was like when everything going apparently he just okayed it every single time so their side is I believe Lucas did not give a shit he was just saying like do whatever whatever you want so my understand my my understanding and this is from this is from the stuff you should know podcast which they do research I think yeah that was that was more that like George. Lucas was like okay. I want there to be a variety. Show I'm going to pick this guy. I'm going to have this guy who knows who did the sun I don't know I don't know what the Brady Bunch Variety hour whatever I don't you know and I and I'm just going to trust him to to make it it. You know so I do. I mean George. Lucas had an initial idea but I think the production he was. He was very hands off on the production. While that's so learned from that. And he made the and he made the prequels and may shot it was he was extremely hands on so that. And that's why those movies are so universally beloved now. Yeah Yeah of course sure university like Dow's your favorite battle. All of Star Wars was from episode. One no no no. That was the first one that came to my mind. I talk episode trees versus they episode seven. I Kendall says something controversial and it's just all of us going at. I understand that some people consider episode one to be the best service movie personally empires my favorite. But I don't I I respect. Ampler is the best movie in the Saga Aga on new hope. It's my personal favorite. So Empire might might list always goes empire the New York attorney legit. I and I don't know where the new Winston in just saying the original personal sex act awake. I stand by having a lot of good stuff in that movie and is episode. One the the best part about that movie. Is that fight that I mentioned earlier. That site is great. Also if I don't care what anyone says. pod racing was cool as fuck walk and we all those. I'll tell you realize that it's just going left to right. Less right. Basically is basically NASCAR. It's IT'S NASCAR WITH STAKES NASCAR states do not not at Nascar. Ninety percent of the racers will not make it to the finish line. Well the NASCAR. Yeah IF NASCAR would be a lot better place that would be awesome on raising sucks. Because it's so Boba always wins so he doesn't. He's one of the ninety percents that don't end paying. Let's face it. It was a sport like Nascar. Where at the end of the race to cars past the finish line and the other eighty cars were exploded leading racks we would watch? That's that Shit every day you know how much money I had on. Ben Quadra narrow my were you saying please. It's so I walk across the finish line. I'll do my favorite star wars movies. Return the jet. But I haven't really watched all well then. This is my childhood. I love her. The jet so doesn't hold up at all. It's the way I love the space battle in return yet. I it is I I know that the rogue one Kinda over took it a little bit A Lot I want to say but I still think it's a very good seen especially when you cut the Ground power the ground parts and just leave the space battle and I thought trap rocks is say do hope and empire strikes back are perfect thickness in my mind. They're absolutely perfect. I would say empires to expect more so than you hope. I'd just absolutely. I knew any hope for me is what introduced me to star awards you know. Even though I was born in the nineties I saw it in the theater when they rerun it and ever since then I've become an hammered with this universe so that's why it holds such a special part of my life because I've watched it more than any other of the star wars films as well so I can say without a doubt I've watched those does do movies more than any other movie does Empire strikes back in a new. My grandmother had those on VHS back in the old days before the special editions. And and so I would like whenever I was house I would watch a new hope and empire strikes back like back to back after school so he does like the first movies. I've ever watched and I still watch it like once a year. At least at the very least I do have a funny story about that. I want to share on here. You know what I'm talking about once. I started going so when the first time I saw return should I in theaters. I was going through a phase where I was terrified of movies right. Yeah for reason we got. We got the rank or part I had to. I believe I don't remember what your was with. A special editions came out in theaters leave. I couldn't I couldn't do it terrified on. You can't say that unpack it so nonchalantly like how you know you are afraid of the concept of no no l.. Everybody welcome back to Peter Members. That's what I saw Jurassic Park the first time at my house and he brought over the VHS. I had to leave when the lawyer got eaten new. Okay Nets a scary scene for it by scary scenes in movies at that period. The what you said it was. I'm afraid of movies. I I was scared to ring. The line starts roar and I gotta go here right now. He says I saw the movie Phantom and went to the older friend of mine. Who was who got me? All psychopathic move is going to be worth and then for about a year maybe a year two years. I was just going to the movie theater nine didn't it. Oh no not that I know we. He cares about the spirit data. That would be really if when it was twenty two like you see. Billy's Ain't walking down the street and you're just like I can't I can't do it. It's just like currently up in a ball shut down. The Phantom came out ninety six so I was nine years old. Okay I still don't offensive movie Come to our number five of the selecting. What the Hell happened to Mike? This is by far. Aw I've said worse on this podcast I'm sure head over the whole thing with the rain. Core just terrified. Remember I get out of the theater later and I sat outside the door waiting until the speed was over. And it was for Peter's birthday party or something right. Peter that what what we saw for two I mean into the best of my knowledge. That was what twenty two years ago but I think it was. It sounds right to me long ago in Alexi far far away what and I only went and returned to Jeddah. I think you saw all of them when they when they came out in theaters. I did yeah up. Gods of the local reel cinemas and they sit through the entirety of Jurassic Park nine hundred ninety seven. That's when it came out in theaters. So that's what has happened. Yes sounds about right. I should not have been terrified of the rancor. Wow I give you props for video it's I'm the it's very brave of you so brave. NB scary you know what. It's like a stop motion in giant monster. I can see how people would be frightened by it. I don't I know I was a kid and I wasn't scared of that. Your address part T. Rex eating the lawyer. Now that part I guess gets under the rain and for laughs. We're we're GONNA find out the rest of us are just like bloodthirsty monsters in this case. Still hate horror movies this day. Like I don't like watching them. They still creep me the out yet. I married woman. Who has a Freddy Kruger on our Tattoo? Freddie Krueger on her arm so hey podcast with two people that love or I know. Our favorite games like Silent Hill stocker as evil. We can tell you for a fact that Stephanie and I both watched collectively like four or five nightmare. Don't street this all away. All right any lax things we WANNA say about Star Wars holiday special. Oh we should talk about the ceremony. We have to talk about the ceremony. We have to talk about the dewey. Because we're never doing this again. This is where the movie goes full. Fever Dream mm-hmm and nothing makes sense. And how did they end up there. Don't they like it. Shows a senior them walking across the space there and they walk into a different sprint dimension like stars and wasn't just me. Have you ever seen star trek the motion picture. Unfortunately I have how it starts today. The Helpful Star Trek was. That was like God. binders your move. Whoever did start motion impatient movie? Wait what year did star Trek motion picture. Come along visas right no no no it was it was post. It was post star hours. Yeah it was it was it was the year after seventy-nine so motion picture stole that from the holiday special. No wonder I also so. Hey that movie terrible. The starving picture is garbage. I I really enjoyed victory but I like you to the second one. Okay colonists is really good. All right. You're saying that's a a different dimension. We all these are dressed like it's the handmaid's tale all Peter Beta earlier that I'm stealing but yeah they're all dressed like they're walking down there there bridges tree bridges and suddenly. They're in a different dimension. It's like the most sappy Over the top ending ever where is like Baguette. They're like Chewbacca. Finally made it home and he's celebrate Life Day with his family. You know and haunts here to. Oh My God Carrie Fisher presence leads. Oem and loose here in the robots. Everyone's here how did they get here. They got it it. They're there for the actual celebration. You know all she was there for Christmas Eve and then they all met at the church the Metaphor for Thanksgiving decides decides that she is GonNa Coop Life Day and she wrote a song that everybody has to listen to for Life Day and they all just sit there and watch her sing it until hill the Phil decides she's done singing and it starts playing the star wars music over that and fades out. No no that's not how I see it chasing she sings. She sings her song. She thinks her song. And it culminates in the Star Wars main theme. So you're hearing are in your. She's saying we celebrate the Dang. Oh No no you start to hear in the background concerns from the movie. And it's like oh my gosh. This was all worth it. This is the coolest thing I mean shrink ever. Were there like surprise us. All you want to star wars the whole time like they fade her out they just fade her. She doesn't say the song. Oh my God it's over done. I mean there that did come out when I finished this last night but you know. What are we served? As aren't the lyrics to the star wars theme. I mean well we have to the CANTINA CANTINA songs. So maybe because your size the star wars thing. Actually there's a pretty. It was no was it. It was a British comedian. Who is on eight? That's in. Castro's counts Alex approach panels out and he wrote songs star. He wrote lyrics to the Star Wars theme Jurassic Park theme. I wish I could remember them. The so forget luggage funny Jurassic Park One is like Oh my God. It's a jain ask for that the other day I listen to that I had never listened to it at eight. Somebody say it's really highly possible. Yeah that it's really as song at the end is awesome. That's all I'm saying I. I was going to cover it on the Ukulele but I could not do justice assist because you have a full orchestra. Dispel that because you'd have enough Kogler. I want to emphasize this is not a the orchestra playing here. It is not like like a recording of like didn't like didn't sync up the star the star wars soundtrack recorded a full orchestra and scored out this entire thing. I mean I know that there's there are themes that are repetitive. But this is not I mean. They were not this is this is not them putting it in the jukebox. Or whatever like they wrote they've there's an orchestral score for this thing like it's it's John Way is Agile Williams onboard for it. I think at that point he had made so much money off star wars that he was like I guess I kind of have to contractually show up and my favorite part though is while she's singing they do fade in like vignette shot of Harrison Ford and looked in our Campbell. And the looks like both those little vignettes are my favorite thing ever. Because there's this classic joke where that Vignette of Harrison Ford you can see the moment. He stopped caring and they show Mark Hamill as Luke. It's like him looking into the side bar camel hair looking like right at the camera. Mark cameras looking off to the side and you only see one part of space and the other part of the space is like hidden in shadowed and his air over it. Because that's the part that got fucked up. Obviously it's like the only way they could get a close up as if they got to look at very specific specific angle and covered having space through shit load of makeup on their way too much makeup. Terrible it's so funny to me. It's I last saw Tauscher. Did you watch this on a twelve inch black and white. TV In one thousand nine hundred seventy eight. You were able to see that. That's sure yeah. I mean they did. A good job is just when the UH when people will find ways to make this test and it's it's terrible okay. Do you WanNa say something that you're talking about. So because the way the way the movie decides it's GonNa end is we're GONNA fade out. Carrie Fisher we're GONNA fade in the Star Wars and then we're GONNA do a Conan the barbarian smile ending with shoebox staring at the screen. Oh Yeah Archive footage of the first movie brand footage. That has very little to do with Chewbacca. Daca some stuff is like. Oh it's like it's like luke seeing the Millennium Falcon for the first time in shoo-in Hunter there where it's like. She winning when Shoo Winston Shark. That's like his thing thing in the first movie. That's his big moment so that plays but then it's like just scenes of Alec Guinness. It's like well. Why does she give us shit about Alec Guinness Oldest? It is that you could be watching instead of this Clinton to be watching it. You couldn't be watching it because it was not available on home video so so if you if you couldn't see star wars this was just like a reminder like hey remember this awesome scene from the movie like I was. I was at a at the half price books a few months ago. You could buy a vinyl. That was just the audio of of the move of the movie. Be because I mean this was this is what you did when you couldn't when you when you couldn't just watch it any time so I mean this is this is a a little taste of star wars in in a world that movie too. I'm not laughing at you. Watching him on the archive footage they play. They play the scene. What are they archive footage? Scenes is win win. Obi Wan is fighting Darth vader. If he realizes that he's going to sacrifice himself and become a force goes and he smiles and the only reason they show that is because cheery was in the background of that shot and he goes like like no and that's the only reason it's it's just a still image of chew staring at the camera and all I can imagine i. Just how great would it be if ended like Conan the destroyer and it was just shouli staring at the camera aging until he became a withered snow. How God God no the next fifty years of Chubias life go by the hidden endings? I fucking hate. It's so so fucking weird. It's I mean I I do remember. The first time I heard about. It was randomly like people telling me it existed and I was like wh- fucking talking about you. That's how I found out you know. I mean the Internet was around of course but that's how I found out I just like I think that's also Kinda funny too talk of nostalgia critic and Chris Duckman doing videos on it. That's the only way that I knew about it. Otherwise I would have never known about middle school band. Directors husband has been had it on VHS. I never saw it but she made reference to it so it was always on my radar but yeah like growing up. It was like 'cause we you know we we're you could you could. You could get video download video but it was really difficult to download video online and yeah so I I didn't see it and I didn't actually see it until well a couple years ago. It's all copy of it at a friend's L. C.. Had It on DVD as well and he was like. Hey you WanNa Watch star wars and I was like fuck. Yeah Star Wars Lightsaber Laser Sword. One thing I did what I what I wanted to say earlier is the copy and we're watching it on Youtube Star Wars holiday special. That's going to pop up. When you're watching? It says broadcast from Dayton Ohio. I was laughing. Kendall's from Ohio. Yes second I was like. Oh so kindles. The ward off Air Dayton Dayton. Ohio is my is my mother's hometown. Actually it's about an hour. It's about an hour from here. Was She holiday. Holiday special the droop or whatever. The name is the weird Selebi for some reason. We didn't mention that thing at one thing we skipped over which I somehow forgot to mention to. Saudi ferries. I need to know that I wanted to turn off the machine and looked at me. Like what the Hell is this. And I'm like I don't know oh it's like worse than if somebody walked watching four hours. I'm sorry you Shoulda Colette. Tiffany watching with your did. She fell asleep mid way through this. I was okay I was also falling asleep like half an hour and I was like oh I need what more our ship all right. I think we should go to chauffeur box at this point. I think we said enough of this movie. We actually had this recording before editing has hit logged in the movie at this point. Yeah Yeah I mean like if we did this for another ten years nonstop recording it would feel like he was as long as the movie. All right I think tend to. Why why don't you go first for sulfur box shelf? It's I mean I yes surprised actually I. I was really really close too so of shown this movie to My inlaws. I haven't shown it to my parents but I think that I think that that's GonNa be an sometime this holiday season. I may have to. Yeah half but I mean my cats named Meena. I'm I'm definitely going to one of these days. By the by the the the the forty five of the of the Jefferson starship song. That's that's the thing but no I freaking love this thing like I said it's it's it's one of the only one time we see the empire really being like fetishistic and evil like he does so much for the lore. It's also like just a such an interesting living piece of of history of snapshot in time. I mean the freaking. Yeah the night but NOCCO bias. Such a fucking good song. So so so it's it's so great so entertaining plus like less like you you play it for people and they just they just look at you funny. It's like the first time I saw Napoleon. Liam dynamite like it's amazing but you just compare it a good movie with a terrible movie. I understand thinks thank you the way I wanna point out that since. We're recording this on skype. I'm seeing Emmanuel's picture. Looking at kindle explaining awesome like fusing generally I I have not noticed that trying not to laugh and see see. It's a picture of manual looking question the off to the side for those that. Don't have the scrape all in front of us but it perfect most people. I hope they could not stop laughing. I was literally about to say it's good thing that there's no video because I'm just shaking violently my ahead write elephants everything that is coming out of this mess mouth one person who liked genuinely license movie. Perfect didn't yes. I was good. Oh well I was gonna say I visited a preemptive and say I I kind of agree with Kendall because I do have a dvd so might as well be on my shelf. But I would I would definitely show it to people. I definitely WANNA show it to people and say here is a time. Capsule of Star Wars right after was big. And here's here's what the the a fever wrought you get your little TV. Bring it to your work at half price books and you can just play that all day and see if people like what the hell is this. That's where I got it. That's where I got the for. Some reason half spoke spot a bootleg. That's interesting well if it's collectible enough than their there might this. I'm GONNA like I I don't know judgment is just see. They're usually they usually wouldn't buy bootlegs. I would think this movie doesn't have official release so I I fly doors. Lucas made damn sure that there was never official. Release of this. It's funny that even after they sold to Disney Disney hasn't like like this is something that even Disney won't touch the like even Disney won't go back and re release at least they they have it yet. I was GONNA ask if it wasn't a mistake Tartokowski so either of those are really never seen them their. Oh you wouldn't like them because there's because you can't understand the dialogue for the first like you know saga this outcomes out then maybe the uh-huh okay talking about the fucking rookie noise and forgot to mention that during the ceremony win. All the Wookey are looking at Carrie Fisher and walking there. All the wookey are making noise. All of them are saying things in wookey speak. And it's like it like drowns owns out the voight like if you had voices in your head this would curious. It's like it's like somebody just took the two bucket noise and copy happy and pasted it fifty times and played them all over top one another. It's the worst thing I've ever heard in my life. I it's it's actually this is this is a true fact is that's the noise. They used to interrogate and torture ISIS members on them. Because that's the only thing that will drive drive. You insane is a minute so when I when I did the last time I did a podcast about the The holiday special. It was as for my show. We did a bonus episode of show that I did call Warren Beast about beast wars and I used to pull sound clips that I would into the into the that thing and I kept the had won it. Actually I think it was. It was in the big. It was the very beginning where there's like music and then the look growling at each other and I'd be like this is sound clip that I that I pulled from this. You know this really good speech that Ryan ox made it play it. It'd be the Like we should we should. We should try to recreate all of us to do. God heal our listeners. Are there ever other even any listeners. At this point if you still listening I I think you resolutions. We can do it. I'll give it a countdown. This is GonNa be horrible all right Scout. Everyone Undo for like two seconds year. Best Wookey as right into the. Mike's retraite the noise of of the holiday special Imagine that but okay so so go back. He he played again but turn the volume all the way up to rape occurs in there you have a few speakers be sure to hold up to your ears like anthrax treble all the way up. That's what that's what it is. The is the is the queues all messed up at Newport for like a good like a good minute a full sixty seconds so I do. I do just want to say like one because I told you that I heard about this thing and I didn't watch it for years and years and years so I did legitimate and also the version that I download when I downloaded it in high school I could only see like the first five minutes and so it was. It was literally just will keep stuff and I heard that sounds the first four and like I literally heard people say the first forty five minutes is untranslated. wookey Talk Doc ed and so I just assumed that that was literal so when I saw like five minutes I was like Oh this is perfectly reasonable. It's alright right. Who's who needs to box their shelf manual? Why don't you go next? I think you'll know what the hell I'm doing with this garbage. Although I will say because I I will box up because I've never wanna see it again. The only way that I'm going to see it again is if I bring my trusty co host from my life streams may me those in g and just subject them to watch this and we have a drinking game or something like every time that that they say life day or something. How shot or something? WE'RE GONNA end up thia dying every day. Yeah I know but that's the only way that I'm watching it again. Otherwise box burnt Choi off a cliff. I don't know what I'll go next. I know sue say so. I'M GONNA go. I think it's obviously going to Bach much as I love Star Wars and I love return to deny many other movies as some people might dot com handle. Think are good movies the best movies of the series like I do i. This is garbage. I never WANNA see again like this but like return of the jet. I just don't understand. Stand it. I actually it's not a beginning a middle and an end and I don't mind my cuddly. Bears like by cuddly. Bear named Lumpy stalking and I'll walk by couldn't handle wookey stock for ten minutes. I guess one way better than any wookey now. No no but this key walk. Sorry is better in any of the. He's definitely better than a majority of the dogs but won't be sling lumpy. Looks like something happened to him when he was younger. No no I just I just strongly disagree. I think lumpy and Malla both their costumes. We're just both excellent frigging. The he walks look worse than the original. Sonic the hedgehog design now l. e. walks opened their mouths. You can't see human aces and all that so I I'm surprised you guys did a nice spot. I kind of want to go back and check that out but at the same time I never want to actually hit play again on this thing. Yeah so it's it's a tough decision right there. It's hard I'm curious. He's been at the same time. I've seen my curiosity killed the wookey they didn't you know we go into the box. Never Forget I did at one for this podcast because we made a stupid comment. Many go on an annual reminder so box how about you do sound the so this this thing holds a special place in my heart. Oh God 'cause I love Star Wars and I love I love when things are bad. I love bad movies either intentional or not. Well let's see. I love unintentionally bad things and bad games. We have I think games and I think this this fulfills both quotas estimates it has its star wars. It's so starrewards. Because it's like it's it's it's the perfect star wars thing to come out after a new hope just that perfect little that perfect little indication of what was going to Not At this is a perfect movie. No no but it was a perfect encapsulation of God. How was going through? It was always. We're going to market the fuck out of it and I think it's like comparable to like solo good movie good movie. I liked parts of this too for different reasons. I live solid number three number four. Probably Solo has legitimately good moments in it. The source holiday special has like one on legitimately good moment and well. That's not true. Like the whole the the joke about Tatsuo. Lean and be Arthur Song in attachment sketch are both legitimately good things. I have the only good moment is when the credits rolled it was over the only. I'm just really sick because listen how weird it is because somebody had to sit down and make the decision of okay. This part's going to be a cartoon. And somebody had to ask why. And they presumably didn't answer and just did it anyway. Like there's so many stories of like the back and forth between two production and George Lucas and so many stories of like from Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher about being on the set of this and everyone just being like so laws airfare about any sort of attitude to making this. We don't give a shit. We're just this is like a variety show we're just throwing it out there and like saying like the production chain Assaf Way through in. Suddenly it became a legitimate production and they had to give a shit. It's like we're in a huge rush to get it ready for the holiday season. This is one of those things where I think. If you're a star wars fan you should watch it at least once you should sit down and watch the holiday special. I don't know Oh why. Why either but JER? Whatever I think just to say you've experienced it and the best part of the Hollis specialists sitting down with other people and having them I am experience it for the first time while was drinking hand yet? A holiday special brings people together S. together strategy. Much like the the HINDENBURG. Crashing people are brought together. Okay okay to go to mask odor. Times of intense error brought to crawl human at the end of the day. We're all human. Did you say what you were going to do with it. This is definitely going very high. Oh Myself Shelf I I love the holiday special is like you and I wear the only science of of truth and I agree with your kid. I don't necessarily love this because I think it's good. I love it because it's bad because it was rush because it had so many problems and because there are so many decisions were very confusing. I have a a quote it from George Lucas. Where they ask them about the special in two thousand and five and he says especially for nineteen? Seventy eight really. Didn't have much to do with us. You know. I can't remember what network was odd but it was a thing that they did we do. It was done by. I can't even remember who the group was what they were writing. TV guys we let them use the characters and stuff and that probably wasn't the smartest thing to do but you learn from those experiences at this fucking liar he actively sought them out and then nobody. No I'm the Mason. This movie wasn't directed by Alan Smith. It like affect anyone. We'll take any credit for. It is amazing time that we wrap up for David Akaba. Like we've been going for far too long. I feel like my soul has just gone off to the one who's WHO's still here. Our normal episodes or nothing like this was chaos because the only way to talk about the holiday show longer than the holiday special evil. There was a point when you went away like that where we came back. I you know so you're like tearing each other apart. Yeah no longer going. Oh host means we are killing ourselves so anyone who is yeah so there are so much that nothing like this but I did enjoy it and before we do you guys want to follow each Kenneth You WanNa go first and give a quick shout out about your show. Yeah so I do lots of stuff but I'll just we're just finishing up our star wars roundtable on the Kendall cast podcast speed Kendall cast dot Ninja or just Kendall cast asked my buddy buddies and I we are all big star wars fans and did our best all year to watch a movie once once a month and then come get together and review it and I try to get them to not talk about the last Jedi. I but I'm we get very opinionated donated. I I'm right about most things. I think I disagree. Wholeheartedly disagree if you disagree with me? Then you'll like the other three hosts on that pod on the SAR on the Kendall Star Wars. I agree they're much much better. Opinions Than Kendall does about Star Wars. I realized After listening to them all I will take Mike's blurred for it and say I agree pretty good but also I wanna make a joke about. Kendall's podcast because I was in the opening. Nothing much much star. Because he has other. There's no where's W let's say that's yeah that's in the intro but also but also the disclaimer. The Be Arthur's disclaimers in the intro. This transmission unrehearsed editing. From in your winning of your podcast I was like okay. Yeah unrehearsed also this dance podcast. unrehearsed one edited but unrehearsed tax added the podcast to. But I'm pretty sure that transmission also was edited so uh-huh I let it go without further comment to its lack of moral value. I think it's Not Another teen movie at some point where they're like like everyone does big dance over ahead. The characters literally sings like how come everyone knows. These events steps is choreographed song. Would nonetheless have ever done this before. Peter how about what you Follow me on twitter at Peter. BP and read the fifth civilization available now on Amazon. I really should do that to myself. Consider I know on you for what over five years by your book really should I really should like what are these days as I should buy it. Sign it and Emmanuel. How about you working people find your at low people can find me over at twitter? TV's last minute lionheart. I'm currently going through Star Wars ZSA fallen order Also you can go at YouTube dot com slash iheart because I will have a video of my reaction to the entirety of the holiday special. I mean the entire not the entirety by just you know select parts here and there where I wasn't falling asleep heavily You will not see me drinking because I never found that bottle of wine that I told you about so You know otherwise I probably would have says that fallen order came out and Mike watched this is like is like he's starting to be balanced to the forest all order. What are the best star wars games to come out long? I uh-huh yeah. I've only played two hours of it granted but I it's so far pretty great. I go so far as to say it's it's the Best Star Wars game to come come out this year. I have no comment on that. This is the only source game right. Exactly that's the okay. That's that's the joke Mike. I know that you've had a couple of years on that. I'm willing to say is the best hours game to come out in eight years Hey fortunately she's good game. I think out that I again. Oh God are you okay for the it came out and two thousand seven I wanna say because it was I have it and it's still win. The playstation tree logo is on the on the sides instead of on the top. So that's it wasn't really. Isn't there a playstation two version. There's also places in two. ESPN version that version of the port of the playstation two version and a version is different from all the other versions as well. So Hey I'll make you feel really old Star Wars the force unleashed to came out nine years ago. Yeah that came out game second one the second one. I've never never actually played the second one even play the the first one. I wasn't nearly as good as the first one but it was okay. I couldn't get the hang of the stylist controls on for some reason to wait. STYLUS SAN wait the S. I tried to play on. Es I ask you had to the different force powers us with the STYLUS. Also now that you mentioned that I bet that Mike. It's gotta add it to his list of Oh portable horrible versions of games that we should play on the podcast. I wouldn't waste. I forcing Lee said you WANNA play. PS three three. Oh but you twenty stories and training wants to listening listening. I'M GONNA throw this in camp otherwise for some weeks and I used to work at target. I remember. Some kid wanted to buy lease on. We and I was young and stupid. I know you don't want to buy that. You WanNa buy Lego Batman Better Games. I want that and I'm like no. You really don't want this. You want them and I remember I did that. got fired a few months later. Not For that always joke. I remember. I wasn't hearing got fired for leaving my area to put away an item. Leave my area to go help with customer because nobody would answer the damn walking when I called and tried and they saw me could happen to walk by like Oh. He left her area. I'm like nobody would help the customer. I never choice but to latronic mega flyer for that Yeah companies are garbage. Sometimes you know it was. All my position disappeared appeared after I after they let me go in refill it for over a year they were just. It was also during the time of the recession in two thousand nine. Okay so that's part. That was a big part of. I think they were just trying to save money. But Oh man this is the most you know this episode of in the most chaos. We've ever had long holiday special K it. It's it blends together so smoothly we should show by singing goodnight but not goodbye while all. Well thinking about Gary Fisher insures French bulldog. That can't keep his tongue in his mouth considering that I don't know the lyrics I think that that's a good i. I have good news for you. I know how and why did I. Ah You know what I feel. That should be the intro to this episode. You have a version of that. I'll send it to you. I try to do so everybody starts singing with someone else takeover for this count them one two three just one round. I read her kidney. Three Alexa stole all onery. The guy very calm rain but good and just one just one more. SCHOENER owner wanted to climb so it's mm-hmm.

Wookey Han Solo Malla Arthur Art Carney official Mike Lucas Carney youtube Luke skywalker officer Bea Arthur Art Carney Baca Carrie Fisher Peter Julia Julia Julia Julia David Kendall Cacique Kendall Canon
Ep 138 - Interview with "Paradise Hotel" Winners Tatum Smith & Bobby Ray

Reality Steve Podcast

1:58:50 hr | 1 year ago

Ep 138 - Interview with "Paradise Hotel" Winners Tatum Smith & Bobby Ray

"You're listening to the reality reality. Steve podcast with your house reality steve. He's got all the latest info and behind the scenes jews on hannah's season of the bachelorettes in interviewing interviewing. Some of your favorite reality starts now. Here's reality steam going. Everybody welcome to podcast one thirty eight. I'm their host reality steve. Thank you all fraternity and get a great show for you this week again a little bit off the bachelor for a week and we're gonna talk a little paradise hotel but i got a couple of sponsors for you. When hunger strikes just remember this set of numbers ninety ten one ninety calories ten grams of protein one gram of sugar. These are the numbers of protein bar that fills you up without without loading you up available four tasty flavors. They can help kick your cravings. Try protein one for your next snack emergency available at all major retailers walmart target local grocery store and amazon also griffin's comfortable sheets and delays made with premium qualities pima cotton will give those. I was comfortable sleep of your life for a limited time. You get to try these sheets for free for thirty days. No strings attached if you don't like them send them back and you won't be charged visit griffin home dot com or search griffin home and use the code steve at checkout. That's griffin spelled g. r. y. P. h. o. n. home dot com and and use code steve like i said we've got a great show for you this week a very interesting show as the winners paradise hotel tatum smith and bobby ray join us yes and they're separate because well they're not friends anymore and we will get into that on the podcast as well but <hes> you listen to both of them and you listened to both tell their stories about what happened what they experienced. It's really interesting and i there's a couple of things i want to point out one. When you listen to bobby ray he he really dissecting this show and thought about everything beforehand and was very practical in the way he approached this show. Considering the show hasn't been on in fifteen years really wasn't a winning formula that he didn't have anything to go off. None of these people did i don't they really took strategy from fifteen years ago because they really we didn't know what to expect but yeah this was really interesting to hear bobby ray talk because it's almost like he was a mad scientist kind of thinking everything thing through and just the way he thought about the show was a little bit different than tatum and some of the other people i mean it it. It worked for him in the end so i guess that's the i don't want to say that was the proper strategy because anybody can do whatever they want on the show but it it's really interesting to listen to him talk because he thinks about everything so practically and i was kind of fascinated by that also want to hit on one thing for those that didn't see the end bobby ray and tatum where the winning couple but then it's thrown at them at the last minute kind of like they did on the challenge with bananas. There's an sarah that you know you either. It was thrown on them that they were just going to automatically split. They had a choice to make and bobby. Tatum were split up. They were they were put on a walkway. Facing each other and each step they took towards each other was a dollar amount fifty thousand hundred thousand fifty two hundred and two fifty <hes> that that might be there might have been another dollar amount in there or whatever it might have been off on the dollar amounts but every time they took a step they had to stand on that step for sixty seconds they could have bowl in there iran and if they wanted to drop the ball at any point they could and they would keep that money and the partner would get nothing. Bobby ray ended up dropping at two hundred thousand so tatum walked away david nothing however there is a podcast out there and a website. I believe that is reporting. That tatum got fifty thousand dollars on this show. I can tell you that that's wrong. I don't know y that person is reporting that but tatum did not get fifty thousand dollars from this shows. You got nothing. Bobby ray dropped his ball at two hundred thousand and that's what he got so just wanted to make that clear. I don't know why somebody out. There is reporting and putting it on a podcast that tatum one fifty thousand dollars because she didn't so let's get started. You're gonna like both of these. I up. His tatum actually recorded by tatum on july fourth so it's been about a week since we recorded bobby ray was a couple of days ago and you'll you'll hear on bobby raise interview. I tell him some of the things that tatum said in her answers so he knew what she was saying and they definitely disagree on a few things of you've in terms of what would have happened if maybe she didn't hook up with carlos and what she thought he was going to do with the ball and what he his original the plan was like. It's it's really interesting to hear them. Talk about it especially since they're not friends anymore so enjoy this podcast number thirty eight i up tatum smith then followed by bobby ray all right. Let's bring in our guest. She made it to the finals of the most recent season of paradise hotel before her partner. Bobby ended up taking two hundred thousand dollars for himself. It is tatum smith tatum. Thanks for coming on hello. Thank you for having me you got it. This is a show that hasn't been on the air in off since two thousand three so if my math is correct you're about seven years old when the show first yet when it first aired so when you went for casting or were in the process of getting cast for the show. Did you know you were getting cast for paradise hotel or did you respond to something that said hey. We're casting for a dating show tasting show on a major network or how did they present it to you. I knew that i was getting past it for paradise hotel. I didn't know what the show was exactly but i knew what i was getting into you for sure okay now. When you found out it was paradise hotel did you by any chance go online and try and find the old episodes and just kind of see the i actually watched a few humanist of the old show but i didn't binge watch it or anything i just kind of went into it not knowing a lot of things okay and like i said you are twenty three now now so you were very young when this kerr okay so once so how did the casting work for you. How did you get cast and was a long casting process for you yeah so <hes> believe it or not. I actually got casted for love island. At first there was very very very slow and paradise hotel reached out to me and they moved a lot faster so that's why i went with paradise hotel and they reached out to me they skype skype interviewed me. They flew me out to l. A. got tested for everything. We got <hes> ask questions and they just moved a lot faster so i didn't think of it like as anything serious until i got the call hey you're on this show all right and it's funny because love island starts next week on c._b._s. That's going to be a show that i mean. I know it's huge overseas. I don't know how it's going to translate over here because it's airing airing five nights a week like i just don't know exactly that's going to be committed to a five night a week. Show a reality show and apparently paradise hotels pretty big overseas to like in sweden but in france so i guess that you know a lot of people overseas watch it too yeah and then you know let's face it. I mean for paradise hotel. The initial plan was we're gonna air three nights a week thursday. I think it was thursday monday. Wednesday thursday it started thursday night or whatever then it was like monday wednesday thursday and then after one one week they were like screw it. We're only airing one night a week for two hours yeah so that it was it was hard for them because the bachelorette was on and the n._b._a. Finals were on debating paid it yeah maybe they just planned it out of when it was airing at the wrong time so that's what i think we all so you know like i said we only got one week of of a three episode week and then they said all right. We're gonna air thursday nights for two hours. Did they tell you guys guys this when you were filming on set like hey by the way we got cut down on that a week yeah. They didn't tell us anything. All that we knew was that we were filming filming twenty four seven and we actually didn't find out until the entire show is over okay so you didn't know that was my thing. I i'm i'm big on like filming and i see this show is interesting to me because what i do and my main job on the side is a cover bachelor and bachelorette and that show is all paul filmed way in advance bachelor in the can for seven weeks before the first episode airs and bachelorettes in the can for well this season. It was about four days before they started airing. This is a show that is turning around stuff within two or three days and it's like yeah. It's pretty fascinating but is there a big brother like in that way so yes and we only ended up how you know the the big appeal about paradise hotel was supposed to be this live segment where people get voted in and really their only ended up being. I think two times where you you went live in that was to live segments and you know that that kind of kind of took the luster off then it's like all right well. It's just another dating reality show. It's nothing different than anything else but so when the finale aired on june sixth. How many days had you been home by then i was home for about i wanna say three days okay. Did you have a watch party until it went to come over and watch yes. I had a huge watch. Injured dreams get stomped bobby through that and obviously you didn't say anything all my friends cameras. All my family was fun and you didn't say anything obviously right like no i did. I'm not saying i wanted to everyone's surprise. What was the action when bobby through to fall down and you are you know i actually she had the watch party at my work and a lot of people came a lot of my girlfriends came and when bobby threw the ball everyone was shocked but i stood up and i was like i'm i'm coming back to work baby and everyone was like night in and it was made light of it all right. Let's talk about a few of the things that happened and on the show and i think the first one that comes up to me was when jared came in when was voted by america. You had this plan of making him think that you liked him and you went out of the day you kissed him but you were clearly scheming with bobby. Tell us what that was all about and digging. Do you regret it. <hes> yes so you know. I don't regret a lot of things i feel like. I was definitely playing the game this it was my idea and i brought it up with the time which was tyler rosanna bobby bobby ginette really agree with it <unk> down so we went through with it and and i knew that i could have drier in the bag. He specifically said that he likes blondes and i thought you know i was only blonde. This is a perfect way to e._j. Ear out and i just did it and it was really easy. I knew that he liked me until he got immunity. That kind of messed things it's up for sure twist of oh by the way gyro can't get voted off. You're like oh crap yeah. That was honestly very scary moment because i knew that dryer it was gonna pick me because we had a great great yeah and what i'm trying to remember what the <hes>. How did you find out about. Can you guys scheme. That was a whole made up with carlos told hand but i didn't know that until the end but was it carlos that said okay carlos was an interesting character carlos him to run his mouth. Everybody <hes> he's quite an interesting character. What okay i know we set on the show but i don't kinda remember. What is his nickname that he gives himself and what is the significance behind it. The poppy thing what is it. I'm huffy copies isone. I don't know the significance behind it. I just know that it means dad seizing. That's what christie hillary said and what it means. What dad what dad's evening i. I really don't know all right all right. Let's let's talk about the carlo situation with you. It kind of had me a little bit confused but i know there's a lot that we don't see so yes where i kind of want to help you to help me fill in the blanks here so i'm gonna let you explain it but i want to set the scene for people that didn't watch or maybe confused like i was or maybe this is how it wasn't shown wasn't shown senior. Teams your teamed up with bobby you seemingly we're a solid team at that point carlos in a you know at nighttime conversation with you or just you and him talking tells you he's always liked you. You guys make out on at least two different occasions that we saw <hes> so one of my questions. I guess my first question to me that move would have made sense if you were planning on dumping bobby for carlos at some point so if you guys were never caught or carlos doesn't run his mouth. Was that the ultimate plan that you wanted to play out that you were going to leave body carlos so i if you wanted to play carlos and get carlos out oh because initially car listen i we. We've never had a real connection. We would always have conversations saying hey i like you. I'm attracted to you but i've never sat down with carlos and asked him about his family his friends or his background. I didn't know anything about carlos. I just knew that we were both attracted to each other. Okay so when you are kind of planning this with him. You're lying to him correct okay. It's up to tough to see that on t._v. 'cause we just we see you saying like your skin sneaking off to his room and making out in the bathroom or like oh is she. Is she playing bobby but you're saying you're playing carlos so the app worse moment when carlos and i were i guess a thing you can kind of say <hes>. It was definitely me playing him and i wanted to get him out. The second time i kiss carlos it was after the ice pop challenge and all i wanted to do was talk to him because bobby was so disrespectful and roots me out the challenge which i don't think was shown very much <hes> and so i went to carlos and that's when i kissed him but i always knew that he had for caitlyn and it was real and genuine and i knew that he would never like leave caitlin for me. I guess okay so bobby was upset right and the way he found out was carlos just ran his mouth and set and and set it. Why did carlos reveal your plan or what he thought was your plan of you you and him kissing kissing carlos. Why did he do it to try and get you got to try and get you out so people would turn on you so bobby i actually found out through caitlyn because i- kaitlan was sitting at the hammock which was shown with jamie and oh yeah after the ceremony i was talking to carlos and the ceremony caitlyn kind of called me. I don't know if this was shown or not and she said you know. I know things. Things are happening here and i'm not stupid this assist and that's when i took carlos down on and i sat him down and i was like okay you told caitlin when our plan was to not tell anyone and i was asking those how i should tell bobby when i was talking to carlo caitlyn came down and they showed this and caitlyn was like let's all talk together. We need to figure this out on causes up and that's when i tell bobby you know i kissed carlo listen. I broke the news to him. Okay now. If you're ultimate plan was you were doing that with carlos to eventually get carlos out yeah yeah when you finally fessed up to bobby about what you did. At least we didn't see it. I don't think why don't you why wasn't it showing or or did you tell bobby look. I only kissed him because i'm playing him or did you say that on the show i did not tell bobby that just because the first time that carlos in i kissed carlos actually kissed me in the bathroom and we we were just gonna keep it a secret and not tell anyone and i went along along with. It and i didn't tell anyone i just let it be and then carlos ruined everything and that's when i was like okay. We need to get this guy out of here. He's untrustworthy. Even though i was always always on good terms of carlos no matter what so carlos just kind of ruined it and i never told bobby that just because i mean but once it did get out. Why didn't you say all right bobby. <hes> you know i didn't tell you but here's the reason why i was basically using him. Because the second time that carlos tonight kiss i voluntarily went in there and i was upset at bobby bobby because he was disrespectful to me and so i mean there were times where i just wanted to talk to carlos but i always knew that deny he would never stand behind me which thank god he didn't because if he did sam behind me he could have chosen a couple to lease so just it all kind of worked out. Did who are you. Who are you legitimately. I mean i guess it's been a month since the you know it ended and whatnot but when you we're out there who are you more attracted to carlos or bobby. At first i was attracted to carlos carlos was completely my type but not as i grew to know bobby as a person i began to become really really attracted to him accurately like poppy. Who's a better kisser. I don't case intel come on say people on the show who like i'm trying to think who else kiss on the show was just those no kiss carlos bobby giant year rosanna <hes> joe johnson yeah. Obviously we already talked about that wait. You can't wait rosanna. When was that yes that was a truth or dare so we just kiss each other and we kind of made a little fun thing out of it. <hes> she picked me up off the ground and everyone was like wow okay okay. Do we wait. Have you gone back and watch the whole season or no okay. Did we see was that show. I can't remember you and kiss okay. I think it was. I can't what am i forgetting that. I can't imagine why would forget you rosanna kissing but apparently well there is there's extended stays on youtube to which are like scenes that are were not josh shown on there too okay guys. Let's take a break real. Quick got to sponsors for this week. Wanna talk to you about protein. One on your stomach is rumbling. You need something to fill it hunger-strike so aggressively. It's easy grabbed near snack. You've got donuts in the break room bag vending machine goodies or a muffin from the downstairs downstairs cafe but when you need a quick tasty treat there's only one set of numbers need to remember ninety ten one ninety calories ten grams of protein one gram grams sugar. These are the numbers of protein one bar that fills you up without loading you up. It's available in tasty flavors and help kick your cravings chocolate chip peanut butter chocolate chocolate put fudge and strawberries and cream all for those are facing right now and i said said it numerous times. It's now my morning wakeup like. I said it doesn't load load me up but it does kinda. Fill me up and when you got four i'll be honest. Sometimes i've had to for breakfast. I can't help it. They're really good good triumphs. Try protein one for your next snack emergency. It's available at all major retails walmart target local grocery store and amazon also wanna talk to you about kiwi. They create super cool hands on projects for kids that make learning about steam fun with kiko subscription each month. The kid in your life will receive a fun engaging new project which can help develop their creativity and confidence the projects are designed to spark creativity tinkering and learning kids of all ages all projects inspiration and activities these are created by a team of product designers in house in mountain view california and rigorously tested by kids every crate includes all the supplies needed for that month project detailed held easy to follow instructions and educational magazine to learn even more about that creates theme kiwi co inspires kids to see themselves as makers and on a mission to empower kids not not just to make a project but to make a difference actually got an email from a listener because ky-ko has been a advertiser for a few times now on the podcast and i got an email from somebody who got this four their son believe their son was six years old and he absolutely loves. It and i can't remember exactly which one they said he got but but she said it's actually been really educational for him not just some little toy that he can run around and eventually break <hes>. She said he loves it and to thank me for you know having the sponsor on so props out to kiko for doing that they are offering reality podcast listeners the chance to try them for free to redeem this offer and learn or more about the projects for kids of all ages visit kiko dot com slash steve. That's key waco k. I w i c o dot com slash steve now. Let's get back to tatum smith. Then bobby ray uninterrupted for the remainder of the podcast. Let's get to the end here and going into the finals. It's you and bobby up against carlos and what's her name. I'm eh blanking on caitland. Sorry caitlyn so you're you guys are the final two couples and like most reality shows your voted on by the people that were voted voted out have to basically stand behind the couple. They want to win going into that finale. Did you think you guys we're going to win i. I had a pretty good feeling that we're gonna win. I knew that a lot of people did not like carlos yeah so that just kind of boost. My confidence did when car. When was there anybody who voted that voted for you that you were surprised voted for you or voted for carlos that you were surprised. Whatever's carlos not really is even get everything made sense. Yeah i mean everything definitely made it sounds for sure and so it happens you guys are declared the winners and on the spot. I don't know obviously on the spot on t._v. That we're watching it was on the spot to okay so it wasn't like any delay where there was time to go over anything or strategize or whatever kristen cavalry says the good so when bobby and i were declared the winners we actually immediately got sent to our rooms and we had to think about our decision an and we went over the rules and regulations and and then we burgess out there talk him. We looked at each other. We can do anything okay so for for for those that didn't see your declared the winners as a couple but they now throw in the twist of oh by the way we're going to loyalty tests where each stand at opposite ends you you walk towards each other. Each step is a monetary value fifty thousand seventy five thousand and then at any point. If one of you throws down down the ball that you have in your hand. That person wins that amount of money. The other person gets nothing. If you get to all the way to the center of two hundred fifty thousand in either of you drop. You split the two to fifty okay so my question. Is this when you guys like maybe even days before this when you guys as a cast sitting around obviously you have all day to do probably a a lot of nothing when you're sitting around talking about stuff. Did anybody ever bring up the idea that hey do. We really think that the final couple is just going to split to fifty or are they gonna throw zero twisted at anybody. Bring it up. I'm not sure about anyone else because we weren't surrounded by anyone else but i actually brought this conversation up with bobby and bobby just completely ignored it and that should have been a red flag there for me and i was like bobby but we have to split the money he was like. I don't even want to think about that right now. I just want to think about winning and that was that okay so he actually so you actually brought it up that there was i mean you guys would a winning as a couple. You would have to split fifty. What like what did you bring up to him. It was a very brief conversation. It would in bed and we we're trying to figure out everyone who would actually stand behind us to see we would win and i brought it up. I said bobby what if we have to split the money. What are we going to do. Oh and he was like datum. I don't even want to think about that right now. I just wanna think about winning and you know. I should have thought right there. You know he's not a split with me because he doesn't even want to talk about it. I was completely blindsided by in yeah yeah so on the loyalty test. You're walking towards him. Yes was there any part of you that thought at any point that you were going to drop or was it in her mind. There was no way you're ever dropping you. Were you were going to to fifty and hoping he got you there and neither have dropped. I was going to fifty. I didn't have a single thought my head to drop the ball. I know that i did bobby wrong but then again it was just a kiss and him and i work that out. We had a couple good night's together and i just i didn't have any thoughts on dropping the aw i wanted to meet him in the middle and us as viewers are seeing this play out and bobby's walking toward you who's constantly smiling constantly winking. Yeah were you when he was doing that to you and obviously you were seeing him do this. Were you thinking you were safe or were you thinking he might be just playing me right now or is it. I tell dropped. Would you realize oh shit. I had a small small small thought in the back of my mind that he might drop the ball on me just because he had been on a roller coaster and it hasn't been perfect for him but i also know that i played the game. I feel like i got us to the end and we were a perfect couple. He was there playing it safe and i was playing the game and so i did have on the back of my mind that he was going to drop it when he was winking at me smiling at me kissing me hissing or i should say blowing kisses that me i was confident and i was is looking at him in the eye and i felt great. I felt like we had this and when he dropped the ball. I was just in shock it was so it was a crazy experience. It's actually so hard explain yeah and one thing that disappointed me about the finale was bobby's ball. Drop literally happened two minutes before the show went off the air. I wish we would have had more like reaction. I mean the only thing we saw was you walking away crying and everyone basically cheering on bobby yeah so kahad a stand on the the little block thing for sixty seconds and believe it or not they actually had a redo the reaction which i'm not very a happy about because when bobby dropped the ball everyone was shocked and they didn't say anything and everyone was just looking at me and when i walked off i guess they had a radio reaction of them being happy and stuff okay and then th the look bobby gave you is like the look that everybody's talking about out. It was almost like he dropped it and said fuck. You look that gave 'em so po show. Yes obviously you've spoken to bobby about it. What was the first time you've got to speak to bobby after the drop happened how how long after that a couple of hours so after the drop happened. I went straight to my room. Impact myself and i said i want to leave. I want to go home. I didn't talk to any of the cast members not even bobby and we actually went back to hotel on because flights weren't going out to like two days later and i say to my hotel room when everyone was hang <music> out partying having a good time celebrating the show and bobby pulled me aside and he talked me. He's like hey. Let's bianca terms. <hes> you know and let's just move on and so that's what happens so it was like a day after so when you finally made it home. You were obviously bothered authored by the fa i mean anybody would be bothered by the fact that they didn't win anything. When you had a chance to that you didn't come home with any money from the competition part of it <hes> but ah you had got where you pretty much over at that point with bobby like okay now i get it. Why do you understand why he did what he did or do. You still like to the okay. Yes i understand but i mean i was his partner. If it wasn't for me he wouldn't have been there and that's what i told myself in the beginning to no matter for whom i partner is without them. I would still split the money with them because i would not be there without them. No matter what <hes> for me at the end i was was kind of over the money because i one paradise hotel we want. Paradise hotel has a couple. I just didn't win any money and i tried to to clear things up with bobby and i wanted to be on good terms with him and be civil with him and i kind of forgot about the money because i really liked bobby as a person but it's now our relationships a little rocky. I would say okay so before we get into the to that part. I guess my my final question on the whole competition aspect of it is do you ultimately think if you had never kissed carlos bobby never drops the ball and you guys were splitting to fifty you know. I really don't know the answer to that question at all. <hes> i've thought about it and i just can't answer it because i don't know i guess i mean obviously that's question for body. I mean bobby knows the discussion and hopefully we can get him that. He said that he would hold the ball but i really don't think deep down inside that he won because he was there for france <unk> opportunities and money and he wasn't there to gain a connection with anyone so i think that you would drop the ball no matter if i played the game face interesting so you mentioned about about a week after the finale aired you did a youtube video where you took questions off of instagram although ninety five percent of the questions we're asking you about bobby. Yes and you know you you kinda laid out exactly where you were and show. Yes what i got from that video granite. That video like i said was about a week after filming. We're going to get to what's changed since then but at the time you seemed in that video that you were interested in bobby still will but he wasn't reciprocating is that accurate bobby would say that he cares about me that he wants to hang out with me and talked me but it was not aw being shown at all. So how often were you guys speaking post show when you got back to arizona. He went back to his missouri right. Yes okay okay. He <hes> he called me and he actually talked me for about two hours on the phone. Talk to my parents. We talk on the phone. <hes> we facetime. We would tax tax every once in a while. He was kinda busy after the show and there would always be an excuse and i got to the point where i was over it and yeah so it was something to where you were considering like. He is somebody that you would consider dating and you were going to try along distancing. Yes i was down down. I actually really liked him but you know it's so funny is now that i think about it just because bobby knight. We currently don't talk anymore at all. We are not good terms. I think about it in life. Friends are like bobby wasn't got with me. I would probably never even look at him and i don't know if you've ever heard of stockholm syndrome. Eh that's what the bachelor the bachelor bachelorette contestants go through. Yes i feel like syndrome. What now are you saying. Are you saying that now just because bobby isn't reciprocating his feelings for you that you maybe but i know that if bobby was actually here that he it's not the type i would go for and he is immature and he's not the guy that i would usually date. I just feel like in the moment i i did grow feelings for him and i did like him as a person and i was down to work things out but now that i realize that i'm not with him and i'm not talking to him that maybe it was. It's all in the moment yeah. It's very it's very possible that could have been it and yeah when you are on an island and the only you know you don't have your phone. You can't watch t._v. You know there's no outside aside stimulation. Yeah you become person i had yeah. You didn't headquarters to but he was he was taking a. I guess. My question is okay since you did that video. Why is it strained with bobby. Now what happened i. I don't wanna put bobby on too much but bobby is made decision that i do not agree with and we have cut things off off blocked him on all social media. I don't wanna see anything bobby anymore and i just don't want to affiliate myself with someone who makes decisions that i don't agree breath. Is it show related decisions or is this stuff. That's since you got back and started talking. You've just heard some things or seen some things and just like. I don't wanna be with this guy. Unfortunately it is show related man and bothers me and people who i thought were my friends are not not my friends and got oh okay well post show. I know that you especially in your video. One of the things that you had said was <hes> on the show. You did not vibe well at all with <hes> now. God what's her name. Who's the one that you weren't friends with on the show but are now caitlin caitlin. You did not vibe with her at all on the show. You didn't get along and now you guys are pretty close. Yeah we're still friends. We talk every once in a while. Who and for all the cast is we. Are we talking. When you say like blocked bobby on everything is he. The only one or there are others that are in this that you're not friends yeah. There's others that are are blocked. I tell myself with them. There's definitely other is okay but if i were to ask them. Would they be saying something about. I mean i don't know who they are but if if i were to ask them. Would they be saying well. We don't talk to tatum because she did this. No okay. No you know why because people want to be my friend they wanna be civil. They want to have a reunion and everything be good but i'm not about being civil with everyone when people go behind my back and they do things that i don't agree with or that. They know that you know i like bobby and they go and do things that is just it's. It's rude and disrespectful respectable so i don't know i it fires me up because i thought these people were my friends and there's a group chat with everyone in it and i just try not to affiliate myself with with these people really anymore so you're not even friends with anybody. I talk to kaitlin every once in a while. I talked to david every once in a while but that's about it and tyler every once in a while too but eight lynn david and tyler yes are <hes> david kendall still together. I don't know i think that kendall just traveling doing her own thing in david's focusing on his own business right now so i don't think anything official but they're still talking. I'm pretty sure what about tyler and his ex would herber nameless forget in tyler in his access so on and off in that's what grow tyler i close together because i feel like i give him advice on his girlfriend on. I've been in relationships before or and so he always asks me. Hey what should i do like this not so that's what makes tailored clothes okay and i noticed that <hes> rosanna china was not on that list so yeah. You're doing your research. I'm just looking at the namm. I am saying okay. You didn't mention brittany's name brittany and i thought i thought you and brittany were really close on on the show. Yeah britney britney the sweet girl. We're friends but we don't talk every day. Okay <hes> carlos where uh with him. I don't talk to carlos is carlos with caitlin no they don't talk at all either. Oh god there's so much good stuff here. I want to know what happened like. I wanna know who said what about who this is great. This is yeah. That's good not rec- okay. We've gone over that. Marie elena she in the group chat at all group chat they all they all like each other but i just so you've kind of kinda just removed yourself from the situation and you're you're back to your life in your in phoenix right. Yes yes okay. It was a great experience. I gained social media followers out of it but so i asked why they all do it right and that's basically what it comes down to so outside of my final question would be outside of winning the money is is there one thing that you could change about your experience. What would it be something you regretted. You did something you wish you would have changed. What's something that you absolutely say looking back. I should have done this differently. I actually don't regret a lot of things. I think thanks. I did everything right. I know i was viewed as a snake or a villain schemed and i played the game but i did what i how to do and i essentially one. I got the end so. I don't think that there's anything i would do differently. Just because i mean i got to that yeah i i think i think with bobby and i hope he comes on <hes>. We're supposed to record but it's it's all based on his schedule. I e comes on hugh but you know he knows that he did me wrong and he doesn't wanna talk about me so that's his problem and now my fault yeah when when i had when i originally reached out to bobby and i said hey you know because i didn't know bobby until i sent my first email to him. I was just like you know kind of like my first email to you. Just explaining what i wanted to talk about or whatever said hey you wanna talk about everything that went down in paradise you know your relationship with tatum the loyalty test everything your decision to drop and all that stuff and he's like back yeah no. I'd love to do it. He goes but i don't wanna talk about tatum very much. I'm like yeah. I'm not supplies and i was like okay. That's a weird response because do cheese. The girl girl you got to the end with you. Guys won the show. I can't do an interview with bobby and not bring up tatum but we'll see how you do list. I'm not going to be surprised if he's like tatum full. We just go on with our day. I wouldn't be surprised because that's just why. He says all the time well if he says that i'm gonna say bobby. That's not true because talk to tatum and she said you're not so we'll have him. I'll call him out on it. You see him blocked on my answering. 'cause i mean i emailed you. Guys both literally within two minutes of each other because i wanted the podcast to be together obviously one of you. I was going to interview i if well put it this way if i found out because i didn't know at it no until i emailed either of you. If i found out you guys were still together or dating then i probably would have just on the interview like on a three way call and just had you guys into split questions that way but when i realized okay they're obviously not even not together doesn't seem like they're on good terms but so you're who i'm interviewing i if we get bobby on and he's part two of the podcast for this week then people will hear whatever whatever his answers may be but yeah if he says like no no i mean. I don't know how you could say. We're cool when he specifically told me. I don't want to talk about her very much so i oh i don't know but maybe but maybe he'll spill as to why since you won't he will not all i can say that him and it's not me that's the truth. I have tried to be on what terms of bobby i want to see him. Talk to him at him and it's not not need <hes> fair enough and <hes> so basically your life in scottsdale is what do you do. What's your your cryan said ed bottle service girl so what you do or do they graduated from a._s._u. I have a broadcast journalism degree for right. Now i am doing but i don't like when they call bottles for surveys. I just say i'm a cocktail waitress. 'cause i work in a fancy hotel the w hotel so <hes> <hes> i'm not you know in lingerie talking to all these guys getting money on them. They kind of portray that differently but yeah life <unk> good. I've been getting recognized and people people event super super nice and it's been good what do you what do you have an ultimate thing. I'm assuming that you went on this. You talked about instagram followers. Do you wanna do you influencing stuff or do you wanna do posting stuff what do you what's your ultimate goal here. Since my social media has blown up i do like to be active on it. I want to be more active. Though people become influencers and you know i hear people talk a lot of not nice things about influencers because everyone wants to be an answer apparently but i would definitely like to grow my social media more and more and produce good content and maybe deep makes them more utility does and i just wanna you know dwell on the experience and take what i got from it. You know what now that i think about this just popped into my head. Somebody came to me. I think a couple of weeks ago within the last week or when i mentioned about paradise hotel on my site i think they they either new or still no- oh you or new. You're from your past. Were you involved in the pageant world. Yes i was so that's the thing is i was competing for miss arizona for years ears in the past three years. I got i got her up and so everyone makes the joke that got first runner up again during the show so story my life i first refund up and everything you got first runner up from arizona three years in a row three years in a row yep. Oh my god just like it's brutal. What so i mean. I know what it's like to almost get to the end. I'm standing there with a girl saying now. I'm going to miss arizona and standing at the end thinking what the money i'm you know it's it's a reoccurring image in my life him huts. I mean after you after you do it once. You're just like all right well. Let me try a second time and then you finish second again and you're like and then the third time is i. I really have in the bag. I'm going to be missing arizona and i was so i was so dedicated pageants. I never went to any frat. Parties hardy's in college. I never partied. I volunteered so much and the third year as a habit in the bag and when i got i want her up again. I i was over. It and i was like moving on and that's win. Paradise hotel and i was like you know what i on national t._v. Hooking up with someone are not anymore so who cares so so we when you finished second three years in a row that was what sophomore junior and senior ear at a._s._u. Yeah wow yep man that's br. I had no idea all i heard was you were you were in the pageant. World had no idea that you had finished the second three years in a row. That's got it well yeah and are you friends with the women who won those three years. Do you keep in touch with them or no. I am not affiliated with anyone in the pageant industry anymore as you can tell it's hard for friends. Why why do you think that is news. I don't know it's just people come and go out of my life so easily and i'm okay with that just because i want to focus on myself and i wanna do my own things. I don't need okay to dwell on other people or force other people to stay in my life and i'm okay with that. World is very very competitive. Obviously asleep. I competed against sixty girls every single pageant and i was right then and there thinking i was gonna win. Strength tons of money on dresses is an entry fees everything but i'm sure that you know in that world there's a lot of gossiping and backstabbing and shit talking between people yeah yeah so. Maybe maybe that's why you're just like all right. I'm over. I'm over that. I've i haven't worn come as close as you can. Come to winning three times in a row. I'm <music>. I'm about -actly that's that's exactly what i think. Now this show i on her up again. That's fine to my life. Sorry sorry but anyway tatum thank you very much for coming on and in enlightening us on the t. going down in post bachelor posted paradise hotel even though we didn't get details we'll see maybe i'll just keep digging and find out what happened. Maybe you can take but i'm pretty sure that they won't say anything because he knows he's in the wrong but okay. I i even if he doesn't say anything i he's. I i guarantee without even knowing he's going to say something negative about you right. I didn't know he has nothing negative. Say helped me. The kid has is nothing negative about me at all besides carlos on t._v. Cool <hes> yeah. I did absolutely correct yeah and that's and you know. It's not something that we didn't see. I mean we all saw it. Yeah i just if he's already telling me in the very first email to him. Didn't wanna talk about you. He's obviously got negative things to say about you. I'm just curious to what they are. I promise you he does not have negative things to say about me. Okay anything dance me saying negative things about him. I'm just i don't want to throw him under the bus like that. He just knows that he is in the wrong. Which is why he does not want to talk about me or the situation because he not even the wrong yeah i do. I am going to ask him. Basically why did he choose to drop at two hundred what you know. The other thing is if he was you know you've said you weren't going to drop and he has a obviously he can't know what you're thinking just like you didn't know what he was thinking when you guys were walking walking towards each other. I'm just gonna ask them. Why did you drop to fifty like why not get another fifty out of it. I don't know why he dropped just going to blame it on the carlos situation. He's going to be like like well tatum kiss carlos so i couldn't trust her. He's looking to blame it on that situation yeah no. I'm sure that's what he's gonna say. I couldn't trust her and that and the reason i dropped was because she carlton charles and i'm going to ask him if she never has any sort of hook up with carlos if she never had any sort of flirtation with carlos does he drop and i'm caesar taylor. I guarantee it. He's gonna say that he would have held the ball but i promise you. There's that side of him. 'cause i know him as a person that he would have still dropped it okay so you don't even if he says you don't believe that answer. Yeah i mean he said it before that he would uphold the <unk> the i'm sorry he said it before that he would have held called the ball if i played everything right but bobby was there for friends opportunity money and i still believe he would have dropped it. When when did he say that in a po- show interview that he's done <hes> yeah. I think i heard it on some t._v. Station. I don't know okay yeah. I mean it'll be interesting. I'm just curious. I mean he. He dropped it two hundred. I'm just gonna ask them. Why didn't he dropped fifty. Why not get an extra fifty out of it if he was pretty confident that you work in a drop. Apparently he wanted to drop it sooner really yeah apparently he wanted to drop it on one twenty five but he he just wasn't sure when he knew that like i was holding my ball he just held it and he said he didn't want to risk it or something thing. I don't know yeah. I hope he. I hope he does it on hopefully before hopefully before this goes up next thursday so you know because we're re. We're recording this for all those that are listening. We're we're actually recording this on fourth of july so we're recording it a a week in advance. Hopefully i get bobby in the next <hes> few days hopefully monday or tuesday and we can have you both on and we can you'll hear tatum first and then you'll hear bobby's what his say is in all this after that so again tatum thank you so much for coming on sorry about the second place finish and whatnot but <hes> hopefully i get more opportunities. Yes it good luck with anything. That's come forward. Comes your way post show and we i'll. I'll be in touch with you. Okay thank you so much sees you gotta tatum all right. Thank you tatum smith for that. That was very interesting conversation with her. <hes> good to hear her perspective on things is and how things went because i was curious like you know so it takes two hundred thousand dollars away from you probably going to be pissed and she was and but then she got over it. She was willing to put it behind her. <hes> you'll hear what bobby ray says about that coming up in a second but she was wanna put it behind her and she was interested in dating him didn't work <unk> out. I still don't know if we know the real reason even after you hear bobby's answer at the end of this podcast so thanks so much though tatum for coming on real cool girl and she's been a lot of fun to talk to since we're recorded the interview <hes> and we discuss. I love island a lot. It's put it that way anyway. <hes> next up bobby ray. You'll hear his responses to a lot of what tatum said because since i recorded wanted him after her. I was able to tell him hey. This is what tatum said. This is. What she thinks went down. What's your opinion and <hes> bobby ray gets into a lot of stuff so here's the winner of paradise hotel. Tell two thousand nineteen bobby ray all right now. Let's bring in the other side here. <hes> he was the winner of paradise hotel the season getting you the finals nose with his partner tatum before taking two hundred thousand dollars to himself. It is bobby ray bob. Thanks coming on. They still adamant. You got it <hes>. Let's start at the beginning on this show because it hasn't been on since two thousand three so when you were going in for casting casting and you were approached about doing this. Were you aware of this show from back in the day to go back and watch old episodes or how did you kind of take it going see if i guess i probably went in with the most limited knowledge about the show of any of the gas members i got contacted did on a friday evening and i was asked if i could fly into l. A. that next day at saturday to you know to come and audition for the show. I didn't even know what the show is name. Was that point so i knew essentially nothing about it. I got brought up to speed in a thirty minute conversation with one the producers of what the show was the general gist <unk>. I kind of went in blind but i was in a position where if something came you know an opportunity presented zenit self. I was going to take advantage of it so i didn't really care what the show was kinda new dating show and that's about all i knew when i was like let's go. Let's go kill the audition and in you know take advantage of opportunities so that does kind of the way it meant for me. I'm sure some of the cast members probably addition for the show more formerly where they found out what about it you know put in an application for me. It was a little bit different and obviously it worked out beautifully so i'm glad things the way they did. When you say you got contacted on that friday evening evening was that the first contact about the show from anybody and they literally the next day for for me. Yes i will say that so four four nine five productions is the production company in charge of the show in charge of production and i knew a few of the people that were involved with another project in and four nine five is about with another project. I was kind of tenderly tentatively involved with that. Eventually i put on hold. Hopefully it gets you know brought back to the table implant. I'd love to be involved in the project. Say what it was by anyways before nine five production they knew who i was and i had been abolished with on issues before so who i was and they contacted me when they knew that they were gonna need a couple. More cast members obviously jumped at the opportunity so going into it like you said you probably knew the least out of any of the cast members. Did you have any sort of strategy or you. Were like i still don't really know what the format is so. It's kinda hard to form any strategy here. Well right it'd be they would ask you what your strategy on this and i would just labs. I i really don't know i'm i'm assuming obviously it's about making connections so i'm gonna try not to cross peop- gonna try to be the good guy but that was about the extent of the strategy i gave because i didn't really know the rules. It's funny. I've said this before. I still don't really know what the rules were you know. I don't think anybody knows exactly so it was so essentially at my strategy was hey. I'm gonna try not to cross anybody. A tribe beyond good terms with as many hotel guests possibly can and that was my strategy going into it just because i mean shows like that. It's hard enough off to stay on the show. When things are going well that have people once you've gone and actually you know dislike you. You're already to get your having more problems staying on the shell. You know if people have ulterior motives to kick you off rather than for me. Nobody ever was intentionally trying to get rid of nate. You know it was just kind of only reason they would want me. Gone is just because it brings them. One step closer to winning the show whereas there are some people on the show that like for example on santa got a bad rap so a little bit people want people wanted him gone. What happened is gone. <hes> nicole jet life people wanted her gone because the way she's acting getting while she's gone so if you didn't cross people and you didn't give people reason to dislike you i felt like that was an advantage obviously and in the end that was the exact reason ned dead pavement i won and then obviously dropped the ball the end who is the fact that people respected <unk> in respect the way i played the game where i didn't really cross anybody go behind anybody's back so much strategy obviously paid off but in terms of having a very specific strategy of how to go about things i did really have on it was just go into this thing trying to make friends and enjoy the experience and turn out to be a hassle essentially before the show. Did they ever lay out to you guys as contestants. There's is going to be a live aspect of it or not until that. I live vote in. Did you realize that was the thing we were told that. There's going to be live components. It's <hes> once a week. That was just kind of cool because once we found once we find out they're going to be live components to the show it it was cool because we knew that like our friends and family back home washing. We're gonna watch us in the moment so obviously there's a lot of shows where you do all the filming and then you're finished with the filming a new comeback and it may not air for a couple of months while this was obviously cool once we find others in the allied components. We knew that we were going to be there. Filming coming as it was going on now is kind of cool because we knew when we came back home. Everybody was gonna get out natalie were and <hes> there's just kind of kind of good news obviously others others who live set because having to come back home and keep quiet for a couple of months after filming is over. I think that i would have struggled that personally. Yeah i mean it's hard. It's started. Keep your mouth shut. I think and i asked tatum this. I'm assuming you're gonna give me the same answer because it seems to be the universal answer of what was going on there about this show was supposed to air monday wednesdays and thursdays <hes> it started airing on a thursday night then you guys did monday wednesday and thursday and then on that fourth episode fox basically said we're going down to one day a week to our show. No more live elements. You weren't told that when you were out there where you at this was no longer going to be a three night. Show as correct need the only thing we really heard about the show in terms of its success in how it was. Doing you know you're in the united states. The only thing we heard was that we were trending on twitter after the first night now that that's a good sign and for and then we just have figured everything was going smoothly and we didn't really think much about it. We were just living our lives yeah and then all of a sudden when there's five couples left we i heard all right. You guys have a week left filming and i'm just looking around and we're all looking at each other like wait. We're gonna go from five couples down to one winner in a week you know and and then it was like that was kind of like a alarming wait what happened exactly but we didn't really think about it. We didn't think we were cancelled or anything like that. We didn't really find that out until the back home so it is what it is you know things happen but it was interesting because we lost a grand total of navy eighty one six people in three weeks of filming and all of a sudden we find out we're gonna lose four sorry for couples in a matter of a week i mean it was like well. How is this can happen are going to go from five couples down to one in a week. I mean it just didn't make sense to us and then obviously if you wash tonelli find out how they went about doing that <hes> so it. You know there's pros and cons to i think the perot is that finale was phenomenal. <hes> there's a lot that happened in now. I mean in terms of a two hour finale. I don't recall seeing a reality t._v. Show with the more you know action packed analogy. <hes> you know obviously there's a lot of things going on there like a cool finish. Obviously which gets you and so from that standpoint you know. It's not all bad that we got cancelled ed one that i can remember <unk> history and i am bias there but still you know things. I think when i'm watching it and like i said ah told you when i first contacted you. I told you i didn't watch the finale until last week so it had been about three weeks. The show had their finale aired on june june sixth to last week and had been in my d._v._r. I had known what the outcome was. Someone had emailed me and said oh hey because they knew i was out of town. They said hey by the away. Bobby and tatum ended up winning. Bobby took the money <hes> i think they actually i think they actually told me in the email two hundred fifty thousand so the old time i'm watching the finale on i'm thinking you're going to drop it to fifty in this person being wrong about the money amount but yeah i mean is the thri <unk>. I'd like to ask you a question so were. You surprised surprised to find out what the result was. You hadn't watched finale so honestly when you heard i was surprised. I think certain people were surprised that i'd <unk> somehow pulled it off based on the way things went for me in the first couple of episodes can always as i like to put on the hot seat there for a little while were are you surprised i had watched because i had watched everything up to the finale so i knew you know the couples at that time between you know. I didn't think i knew was never going to win. He was just too scheming. He played. This wasn't survivor survivor. Maybe would have had a better chance to win but he's more about out relationships with other people and not and he just did too much scheming so i knew whatever couple he was with at the end which ended up being him in kaylin. I knew he wasn't gonna win. Dan i didn't see giren jamie winning just because of the whole <hes> they were just too new yeah and then and then so i guess guess if when i heard it i really thought if you would ask me before the finale i guess i thought david kendall would've won so i guess i was a little bit surprised but i'm not not terribly surprised belden so anti-climactic david kendall one. You know what i mean. It's just like there's no story there. There's no plot twists. It's like david kendall deserved to win. Opinion and i still say if the objective is to go all in love or to make a you know connections connections with people david kendall had arguing to strongest connection of any couple you know hotel so if that was the objective in a a achieve that objective more so than the other remaining couple having said that you know if if they just kinda waltzed through the thing and win in dominating fashion in hold onto balls and everyone's you know hugs says out that was sweet like is like the best t._v. can take now in terms of entertainment value. No like there's there's entertainment value what happened would would actually occurred as it's gotta be right up there with the best possible outcome series of events in terms <unk> enjoying what you're watching so and obviously again. I'm biased because i actually won the money in my pocket. Now can complain about that but i can honestly honestly say that david kendall probably deserved to win the show in terms of what was slated as the objective going into it for sir and their job purpose to make good t._v. and i think now <hes> seeing how the finale played out you're right it was action packed for two hours and and you know with the twist at the end there are a couple of things i had an issue with with the show and that was all season not not that this show was going to be filled with a bunch of challenges but to only have one all season it just didn't it almost didn't fit like do a show with no challenges whatsoever or do a show with challenges but just to throw one random one in there with the icicle or the you know the whatever you want to the melting it was just so it was just so out of left field because they hadn't done one up to that point that got anybody eliminated yet that was what what determined and elimination i dunno inside information there see i don't have any inside information but you have to think that direct correlation with the fact that show it's it's poet so let's say there's another five or six episodes on top of what actually aired without giving them time to you know go from five couples down to one and with a few challenges as you know the cost eliminations rather than just willy nilly in voting people out which is what they did. I mean you gotta remember britney and <hes> tyler went home because jared just invoked. Whoever you wanted out jared was there. They got eliminated. Okay you get to eliminate someone. There's no way they would have done that if they had the full slated number of episodes nets. That's is lively that they were going to start. I think we're gonna start to new challenges down the down the stretch and then obviously didn't you know didn't have the opportunity to do that. So is is what it is yeah. You know you make a point. It's probably where they were headed. It's just that i guess because of the schedule being truncated the way it was. It's why but it was out of nowhere somewhere yeah. It was out of nowhere. There's no doubt it's like here's a challenge the one and only and that and that challenge is really no different than the whole jared thing coming out of nowhere like oh jarrett here it oh by the way you get to eliminate a couple. That's kind of a big deal. Couples are all is definitely a baby for money and giving it to that guy who was like okay. We barely know him. He hasn't hooked up in writing. It's like gave a lot of power to a guy that was pretty insignificant on the season just kinda i dunno. It's kinda weird. So i wanna talk a couple of things that's when you guys were in and out there filming and obviously there's tons of downtime and your your guys are all talking to each other and whatnot whatnot. Did you all discuss in the house. What twists you thought might be coming on the show that season or did you just kind of like look. There's no point guessing. We're never gonna know over anything sort of tip off. So maybe you saw some things happening. Oh my god that's all we did all day. Every day was explorer possible twists and turns. They throw at us. It's all we did remember. I mean we we we didn't have t._v. We didn't have phone so we got to talk to each the other and yeah we would go in the pool and we chill the hammocks and you know do all this <hes> random stuff but for the most part we were talking and a lot of times. We're talking about nonsense talking about fun south at a time. Sometimes we will talk about hey. What do you think they're going to do. Moving forward what you know. What are we gonna do to cover our ass and rosanna is anna tatum tyler and i would always spend time talking about what can we do to cover our ass in case in this or that for example. What if they throw a checkout checkout. Ceremony are away and they make a rule where you can't really with your existing roommate now this lady in that scenario we said okay tyler. They're all go with tatum and i'll go with rosanna so stuff like that so yeah we were always kind of going through options of things they could throw us in you never know but it was it was i was trying to cover their ass in case this this happened so it was definitely something that we had time to think about and try to prepare for and of course an example full of that where an example of a situation where they threw a twist at us that we were not ready for was the situation gyro comes in tatum says hey i can get you know catch real feelings for me and feel comfortable in in standing behind me and then i'll send him home and the whole time that ideal is up in the air i was against it. I was very against it because obviously i was the one that was you know get shafted if things went wrong because <music> right is that we that checkout ceremony the girls were the ones say now so the girls were safe so so it's easier for tatum to say oh oh this'll be a good strategy rid of dry year because he's not going anywhere for me. It's like great now. The girl that i'm with is going to pretend she likes another other guy who knows if they actually do catch real feelings. I was in a weird position there. That's why i was so strongly against it in that obviously went against my strategy anywhere. You don't need to cross people in that show. It isn't survivor. All you gotta do is be a strong connection state. Cena couple and you're good. You didn't need to go out. You know plot against people. I don't understand why so many people trying to do that because that wasn't really the game. The game was just saying your connection <hes> of course now you say that and then david kendall that's exactly what they did is still at home so but you know what i'm saying so there's no right or wrong way to do it. I guess but it it was just like any way so tatum his plan to you know get ear to stand behind her and of course they jog your unity and at that point in time i thought i was going to go home aw because at that time thought datum ceiling him in a great while i might as well pack my bags now is the guy who's got immunity can pick anybody wants is gonna pick the girl that i'm rooming with sell auto. There was definitely some twists and turns. We are preparing for it and it was fun. It was it was a fun thing to do so in those numbers best status in my life so i'm glad i did it while i was going to ask you about the whole situation because i brought it up with tatum as as well but <hes> i mean you made your feelings known that you were you were not into it and i think you know like you said the the twists gets thrown. They automatically give j._r. Immunity and yeah you were. You're in a situation at that point. Where of course you weren't into it because he gave them all the power. You had to put all your trust into her her that you were going to stick to your word that she was going to stick to her word and if you both stood behind her that she was going to pick you which didn't even happen humanity exactly what it was a risk reward type of deal right so in that situation if tatum wants to play here the risk for me it is that i go home so the biggest risk of all you can take in a show at the worst possible thing that can happen. Is you go now is the risk for me and the reward award for me was essentially nothing right. Okay great so gyros on someone asks to go home anyway so for me. It was like no reward for a huge risks and you know. I was the only one that was going to be in jeopardy format. You know that whole plan and voted three to one tyler rosanna tatum all i wanted to go through with it because they felt like a threat and they thought they thought it was a great idea. I'm sitting there in the hammocks like i don't like it but i'm a moated so do what you gotta do who i guess you know but anyway it. It's all part of the you know. People kinda get caught up in the game. You know and i can definitely see how that happens and i don't blame ain't people for doing it. I just felt like it didn't make a lot of sense to me. I felt like it was such a simple equation. Having success in hotel now was have a connection and staying couple. That's it that's all you gotta do and the more the more you go behind people's backs the more you try to play the game more you. It's your tatum. Go kiss carlos behind my back the war you do things like that. Jeopardize your position hotel in. I just didn't see a reason to do that. Which this is. Why is every day. I woke up a breakfast had fun with you know all the guys talk to talk to the girls and tatum as much as i you know as much as i could and realistically <unk> that wasn't like a real relationship. Obviously i definitely wanted to pay attention to make sure she felt like i was in it <hes> but other than that though i felt it was just a simple equation having success staying a couple go and certain people felt like they needed to do more than that and like for example carlos. I feel like he did all the things he did because he never really truly felt the real connection so so he felt like he needed a kind of mixed things up in go a different route. If you make it's the end and obviously it worked for me got two finale. He got to the final two couple so i'm from that standpoint. I guess you can't really argue with it but you know in the end that obviously this is demise was all the back stabbing wended but you know no fault there absolutely no problem with any of the people on the show including carlos told them numbers zander's spec the way play the game forget sometimes. He's a twenty two year. Old kid shared himself pretty well to exactly. I know i know every time i tell people that it's because you know he kind of carried himself felt like he was twenty seven twenty eight. I mean shit. He was times where he thought maybe he was the oldest guy there with some of the ways that he was conducting himself now. Obviously didn't work out from the end but yeah i mean you can't fault somebody for going and trying to do everything they can to win you know and that was what what he felt was his best strategy so good friend so i wanna talk about the carlos situation and obviously i recorded the podcast tatum before are you so i will tell you what she said about it and then we'll get your thoughts on it because i honestly didn't understand it and what i said to her. Was your teamed with bobby. You're seemingly a solid team at that. Point carlos tells you he likes you and then you make out with him on at least two different occasions that we the audience saw. We don't know how many more there were if there were others so my question was to her that move would have made sense if she was planning on dumping you for carlos at some point point but it doesn't seem like that was her plan so when i asked her. What was your whole plan in doing all that and she told me the reason she did. It was capucci was plotting against carlos and she was eventually going to vote him out or she was. That was her plan as to why she did it. How do you see the whole thing well. Obviously i can't get inside tatum's head. I'd i would say that i believe her. That's what she says if she if she she can she claims she kind of said something similar to me where she was trying to get carlos to feel comfortable with her and she had hoped that he would come stand stay in behind her where he could you know get rid of him and his knee instead but i also have heard the complete opposite where she was wanting wanting him to come stand behind her so that she could send me home so who knows if tatum claims after the fact that she was just trying to get you know karlis kicked out of the hotel. I believe her at he said that again she didn't need to do that. Let things happen if you are or in your own couple and you're doing if you're taking care of yourself. It's all you can worry about. Let other people chew things up. Let other people fight for their lives because it's simply again. It's simple if you go on every checkout ceremony and you're confident with the person that you're ruining with your good so it was it's just interesting. In the all the times people went in you know try to strategize your way around the hotel when all it was just a simple just a simple past enhanced stick stick with it and that's why i started out in hotel brady and i told brittany you know hey you know. There may not be a romantic connection here but i swear to you we will. I will have it back the next two weeks next to checkout ceremonies and that will give us an opportunity to you know get an idea of what this shows all about to tale to meet more people and then from then on if you feel like you have a better connection somebody else then you get to pursue that but at least we're here for a couple of weeks and then she immediately the next day. It went off times does she. You know she felt a real connection with them and that's fine but under sitting there shaking my head. It's like you know you really think you're gonna find true. Love this guy on reality t._v. Show and it never happens but a seriously day to go in ditch. Lee wouldn't be nice pack. Everything was gonna work out beautifully and i think she to this day. She regrets doing that because things my workout differently it. She stayed with me but you know there's people they were there for love or money. People you know for me. I was there for the experience. I would say i wanted to win but i never thought about winning really the entire time i was there. Winning was not what i was thinking about. It was just simply. Make it through the next checkout ceremony and <hes> for me it was just you know the friend people you know give people advice when they ask for and i feel like i was kind of a big brother figure to a few of you know people there. I know data looked at any kind of like a big brother. David was only twenty one. There's another one that's like you know. He looked like he was thirty. I met him <hes> but yes so everybody had their own little strategy everybody they had their own little way about going about things and and i'm not gonna say i was better at the game and everybody else just because i happen to win. I mean i it's good breaks. You know it's not like you. You know it's not like i'm out competed. Everybody was you know leaps and bounds better than everybody at paradise hotel luzon really awake he better at paradise hotel. Tell you just have to catch breaks and staying a couple and see what happens from there so interesting. I think tatum one one of the reasons that she did say that she went over to the carlos side and made out with him. A couple times was her reasoning was also that look. I was also also not happy with how things were going with bobby. I didn't like how he treated me in the popsicle challenge and he was just kind of not being as affectionate <music> as i wanted him to be so yeah. There was a part of me. That was a little upset at that aspect of it so on on that that front what's your response to that. Look i will agree that. I was not the most attentive partner you know. I wasn't showing tatum the affection that she wanted and i i don't think you can necessarily fault in that because i was just being honest person and if i had felt more strongly about her than i would have just naturally shown more affection and spent more time with her. I liked tatum. I did feel a connection there but i was not head over heels love with her or anything like that that so it would have been an act if i had decided to throw myself her and spend every waking hour her it would have been an act. It wouldn't have been the truth <hes> <hes> it would not have been a troops rush feelings and that's why i spend so much time with you know various people not it wasn't just tatum formulas about you know all the connections in the hotel matches one and obviously i paid off in the end but look i mean the bottom line is even if tatum felt like i wasn't showing her enough attention amid a very it clear that all she had to do is keep her hands to herself. Were just between us for just one more week. Rights out she went and kissed carlos a couple of times which in the grand scheme of like the real world that big of a deal tatum <unk> dating tatum was my girlfriend. We weren't exclusive. She has every right to go kissed whoever she wants technically but in that arena in paradise hotel where everybody knows what to do. Everybody sees years everything that happens to me. It was just obviously a very questionable decision she made and like i told her and i actually sat tatum in carlos down the same time. It was in my room <unk> after i heard about this. I said i'm not mad at you guys but i'm a little disappointed like i was like a dad like it's like you guys are idiots. You know because all you had to do who was keep her hands yourselves and stay in your couple and then now this would be a problem but i said now. Both of you guys look bad and i was like i know you guys aren't bad people. You're not bad people but you look like that people now because you went and did this you know that point in time it it did hurt me a little bit because tyler earlier you know who is my best buddy and hotel had just left either. Just got kicked out by jared in the net save nights. I find out what happened between carlson him. A little hurt by because tatum is supposed to be the one person hotel that i trust and i find out that it's the complete opposite. I felt very lonely at that time because i didn't feel like i could really leap trust anybody in the hotel moment <hes> and that was a tough tough night for me because i was like man i you know i don't know what can happen moving forward. I don't know where i stand but you know again. They're not bad people. It was just a questionable questionable decision that they made apparently they're about trying to strategize and get you know each other out. That's word on the street. After the fact you know who knows eventually the case could have been they actually did have feelings for each other and they just never really had an opportunity to pursue it who knows house but again all you gotta do is keep your answer yourself for another week and then you go when you get back home to get out of the show and phillies over go crazy what you wanna and do you know but in that arena you know that everybody's gonna find out about it so i was a little bit shocked that you know they just didn't have the self control that they needed needed to be honest with you because it caused a new that tatum didn't do that may have been a completely different result but who knows well. You obviously got over it and you said like you oh you sat them down and you're like it just stupid. I don't hate you guys but you know what are you doing. This is just dumb gameplay. How did kaitlyn take it at that point because she was coupled with with carlos but i'm i'm forgetting why her reaction. I don't remember where we showed it very much about her. Finding i do about it but i think i think caitlyn was more upset with the fact that tatum hadn't told me yet yet and i think that she was starting to get fed up with it and she's like are not i'm done. It's time for you to come out clean until bobby. What happened and kate wants a sweet girl. I really like halen a lot and it was funny because we were joking around about even on the show like hey jalen i would pull each other side down the stretch after all that jury south to say we should be the ones that you know in a couple right now and we you know walk away into the sunset <unk> one hundred twenty five k. apiece breath because obviously we want a landslide fashion of alien. I were the final couple there and obviously that wasn't within the rules but it was just this like kaylin. I run the exact zac same boat we had partners that had gone by our backs and <hes> when the jury came out and everybody was pepper n- you know everybody with questions russians and everything like that it was just it was all directed toward carlos than tatum while kaylin. I just stood there and watched it and you know that's what i made a statement in with now. Look i get it. You know our partners have done some things some questionable things but you can't punish caitlyn i for that you. You have to make a decision based on who you want to win those kind of marble pitch i gave so again. It's not a bad person there. Everybody <unk> back back in the exact opposite everybody on that show. I really like <hes>. I think they're all outstanding people but in that show <unk> you know in that little arena that you're in with a hundred some cameras around east outta be smarter than that every decision you make you you need to know might have consequences and i think certain people. We'll forget about that for a little while. So is what it is. The cost certain people and it worked out for my you know my favorite so so the so when you guys get to the finals it's you and tatum against carlos and caitlyn going into that final knowing who was voting and knowing they just had to go stand behind behind the couple. They wanted to win when you were doing the math in your head. Did you think the u._n. Tatum we're going to win yeah to the honest with yeah. I thought we had about a ninety five percents sheets laying <hes> i went through my head and that was me being very effective on bias about it. I just went through my head all <hes> <unk> jurors and to be honest with you every single time i did it had at least six people that i consider to be locks coming our away and that would at worst via tie then all we would need is one of those swing votes to come over. I mean i knew david kendall. Were coming our way yeah. I knew mary elena was coming our way because she couldn't call us a new rose. I knew i knew rosanno is coming our way as close. She was to tatum and i as four tyler there was no doubter. That's five. I actually put hans as a no doubt as well and that was six now at the end he obviously took a couple of steps toward a policy caitlyn and then he turned around and came our way and everybody went crazy in those you know just to yovany can exactly no cons has a knack for the dramatic again. That's why you can see my face after start walking to the weight. I was in complete shock. Let's <hes> so those are the six locks that i had quote unquote and then there were some mm swing votes like britney and jared that i just thought l. a. does he get go either way and all we need is one of them. We got both of those you know. The final tally was eight four but i was pretty comfortable going going into it just because of the relationships that i have with all those people you know so. I'm very happy that things went the way they did and again. I think i made a tweet. It said you know some people focused on one connection and i focused on seventeen or something like that. It was all all seventeen people that stepped foot. Note sal tried to try to get close to try to have a solid relationships with them. Is you never know i mean it was about connections and and and to be honest with you as much time as we had. There's so much free time where you need to go and befriend everybody or you're going to go crazy you. No you can't just stick to one person can't have enemies no teller. I feel like you're gonna. It's gonna be a nightmare. You know it was hard enough environment to be in <hes> in terms of the stress that you go through even with all the friends i had so i can't imagine going through all that <hes> being disliked by the other hotel guests so again that was my strategy going into it and that's why when i knew when i heard that a jury is gonna come decide. Jury of you know pass. Oh tell yesterday and two winners gonna be again. I was about ninety five percent confident that tamyra we're gonna win the damn thing so i was very comfortable going into it. Yes yeah. She didn't break it down like you did but she said that she was confident that you guys we're gonna win as well. She just said i thought the numbers were on our side. It looked like we had more people and she also thought that the carlos scheming and the way carlos played the game wasn't going to resonate with a lot of jury they were just going to go for they. They saw what she she did but they thought she thought they would think what carlos did was worst in which she did and she definitely thought that you guys were going to win now. Was there any point where you guys obviously the the <hes> the loyalty test which was after you got in tatum were named the winner. Kristen drops the bomb that you are now going to be <hes>. Put the loyalty test where you know we talked about it with tatum and everyone saw saw the walk where you take a step and you have a ball in your hand. You can drop at any point. If you drop it. You win that money. The other person gets nothing if you both make it to the end and neither either of you drop then you split the two fifty <hes> tatum said there wasn't a lot of time from the time that was announced to the time he started the walk. You and her were not allowed to speak to each other so when that is when that bomb dropped on you and you're thinking about going forward what you were gonna do. Was your from the second that kristen announced this was going to be the ending of the show. Did you know you're always going to drop or did you not make up your mind till the walk yeah. Yeah i mean obviously i take them said we didn't really have a lotta time. We did not have an opportunity to talk to each other. I was azazel to go back to my room for about twenty minutes or so in mullet over when i first heard the rules and heard what the game was. I was definitely conflicted. I would have no problem splitting the two fifty but as i thought more and more about it. I just thought i just can't take that risks. Tatum was a person on behind my back a couple of times. I did not have one hundred percent. Trust her so it would have been foolish of me to assume that she would have hold held onto the ball time. She claims that she would have and i'm not saying that she wouldn't have but it's obviously convenient for her to say now that she would have held lavar. We can't get inside her head so she might as well say. You know what i'm saying like now that i dropped the ball. It would have been stupid for her to say yeah i would the dropped to so of course he's going to say. She's gonna hold onto the thing the whole time again. I'm not saying she's lying. She made she very well may have held onto the ball the entire time and been willing to split the two fifty but i didn't know that and to this day i can't know for sure. She had done that if he would have done that so i had to do what was best for me. What was best for me was to take into my own hands and the two hundred thousand dropped the ball and the reason i didn't to the two hundred fifty thousand bucks was because at that point it could have been a race and taking decided she wanted to drop it at the two fifty. When <hes> when kristen said go more than it would have been a real shame had lost out on all that money just because i got beat to the punch you know at the two fifty so that's the reason i dropped at the two hundred was just to kind of cover. My ass and contracts get greedy. Okay see that's that was going to be my question. Is you waited all the way to two hundred to drop at two hundred. You know you're winking atr better. You're smiling the whole time which is obviously game. Play on your part because you were doing that. Obviously i'm assuming to make her feel safe like hey. I'm not going to drop because you couldn't speak to her and say say like. I promise you so you were. Just you know giving her assurances she actually she obviously didn't drop up until two hundred. It didn't look like she was going to drop at two hundred either. So there's really only one of the place you could have dropped which would have been to fifty and that was my question to you. It's like well if you were going to drop and you and you had made up your mind at some point during that walk okay. I'm gonna drop one. I just drop it to fifty and get an extra fifty grand out of it but you're just saying that you still thought that there was a chance that she could of dropped. It felt which you didn't see was when kristen started the time the sixty seconds each time she would say okay. Your sixty seconds starts now now and would you watch the show. It makes it look like i waited a few seconds. Hell no when i stepped up to the two hundred thousand christie goes. Your sixty second starts now. I eat meat lot right when she said now. I can through that ball dom because i didn't want to risk it so essentially if you're gonna if you're going to drop the ball at any numeric value. You're gonna do it immediately. Is this make any sense to hold on to it for a little bit in wade out and then drop it you know because it just doesn't make any sense if you're going to drop it drop immediately at that value <hes> so yeah i did it at the two hundred thousand because if wade into the fifty i felt that there there's still a chance that tatum was waiting to the two fifty was gonna drop to the two fifty and if he had decided right when kristen said your sixty seconds start now and tatum beat me to the punch just even if it was a fraction of a second whoever's ball hit the ground first as the winner. I would add hard time living with that. Knowing that smart thing to do is to just does two hundred grams. Not you're not shaggy number so i wanted to be smart about it. There's definitely a lot of thought that went into that <hes> and it wasn't just like i was scared and just said okay. I'm gonna drop out. It's like no. I'm going to do this to cover my ass us. In case he decided to drop at jupiter the race finish though that was all strategy obviously it was all what was best for me and mm-hmm i felt bad about it and i had a reputation hotel russians good guide and crosses anybody all of a sudden. I make this move <unk> at the end where i take all the money and it wasn't agreed thing. It wasn't because i wanted more money. It was because i wanted any money at all. I you know what i mean like. I thought it was more so like i don't wanna get nothing. If i had a guarantee if i had known one hundred percent tatum had held the ball he tired time i would have been okay splitting the junior fifty thousand i really would have but i didn't know that i didn't know you know i mean neither. Did she <unk>. That's the other thing that went into. My mindset is kate improper <unk>. There's there's a lot of different angles. You can lead us but tatum if you're looking from tatum's standpoint she thinking okay is bobby going to hold onto the ball and she probably started thinking herself well. He knows that i've uncrossed him a couple of times. He knows that maybe i'm not the most trustworthy so he probably will drop a ball in which case taken within think well now. I know that bobby is gonna drop the ball. I need to drop the ball so you don't. I'm saying like there's all these things that go into it and who's to say she's going to drop the ball to one fifth year the two hundred or the tooth there's no guarantees so i ended was best for me if she had done anything across the earlier in the competition i would've held onto the thing i know that was question a year and a half of you but i'm gonna make it very clear is taken under not kiss carlos in tatum never done anything to romney over the course of my time hotel i would held onto the ball period of the stored one hundred percent one hundred percent ninety. It's not even close <hes> because i would have no reason not to trust her and i also <unk>. It also would have looked like an asshole. If i dropped the ball in tatum when she had done nothing wrong me i would look like an asshole and that did matter to america tation did matter to me both amongst other hotel guests and you know amongst viewers so the fact that opportunity to take more money and still be looked at as he's a good guy just doing the smart thing obviously it worked out well and it was a fortunate result but <hes> things are a little different than tatum never done anything to show. Oh any signs of this loyalty i will i would have held onto the ball the whole time and then you gave stare after the ball drop where where did this come from might get almost it was like a f- you and it seemed like there was a part of me that looked at it and it seemed like you were angry but obviously listening to you in this podcast and <hes> posted it. Just where did the come from was that just in the moment. You didn't even realize that. I was not it steve. That's what that is. That was just a great shot. Someone whoever's operating camera just got a great shot. There looked cool. <hes> and it looked like i was angry. Are- you know everybody's calling me a savage for that in all reality i think my emotions were kind of like you know. One of those like well i had to do. I had to do and i just kind of had a stern. Look on my face. I looked back at tatum. They're kinda siri action after i did it and at the same time there's a i'd be lying if i if i said there wasn't a little part of me that was like proud crowd myself in a way of finally standing up for myself after all the stuff that you know went down because you know <unk> tatum <unk> obviously went behind my back a couple times. I was very calm about it. <hes> i never you know never gotten carlos his face. I never told him that she was. You know a bad shirley. I was just very calm and i said look. It's a big deal. You know i i think it was a crushing decisions. He has made. It's gonna make it hard for me to trust. You and i said some stuff like that but i was very cordial about it. I never lost temper. When it came to the carlos tatum situation and finally i had an opportunity takings my own hands and kinda rights and wrongs wrong if you will and i did it so yeah there was a part anita. It was like you know this is it this is i'm gonna i'm gonna take things back amount hans right now and i'm. I'm a i'm a kinda right. The wrongs that you made out of our whole situation as kind of maybe we're that look came from. I guess understandable understandable and just listening to you on this podcast. It's funny because you have the way you've explained. Everything about this. Show is like you you just looked at this show from a practical point of view whereas i don't think anybody else did i mean i haven't the only person i've the only other person from this show. I've spoken to his tatum but you have really made it clear about how you looked at everything through a certain lens and i. I just don't know if other people on the show did the way you did. Which was you know like like. You said. There's no strategy you just. I think yours your outlook on the show. Though is a little is is different than everyone else's. If i had to guess yes but then again i haven't spoken everybody no i i wouldn't. I don't know if i'm the only person that that was the one about things away. I did that looked at things the lens through which i looked at everything but i will say that just in everyday life from a very i go about things with my head over my heart so any decision. Any reaction that i made was with my head is what is the best possible thing for me to say right now. What's the best move for me to make right now and i knew that everything i didn't said would have potentially consequences down the stretch which is why i was so so <hes> cordial everybody in china to ever cross. Anybody and i think the only time you saw a truer version of myself. South come out was maybe during that pops melting challenge a very competitive person and under those high stakes you know that we were under where tatum i almost had to go home <hes> from that challenge and she had dropped half the key in the sand and it was it was looking pretty bleak for us. Yeah i was pissed for second night. I yelled at her and i regret that but my point is i am no different than anybody else. I you know i like to strategize his. I am competitive. I have done things that you could be. They can be looked at it is not the right thing to do but in that show for the most part i did the right thing a win about things the right way because i felt that was the best strategy for me to hang around so and it was all because i looked at things like what what is the best way to go about doing things but definitely very logical and everything i did everything i said and i looked at every situation as what's best for me sal you know some people definitely lead more with their heart. You know britney led with her heart and in that cost i think and i think tatum. She claims that she made the move because she was there to find love and she didn't feel like i was giving her the affection she needed and she went off in felt suddenly celikkol listen. You know mistakes happen so i don't know i can't wrong anybody for that but i definitely was one of those people that went about things <hes> a very logical way and post show it's been it's been interesting. 'cause i had no idea about anything post. Show because like i said in watched the finale until last last week so i purposely tried to stay away from seeing what anybody was doing on social media following any you know see who was butting coming up or coupling up or just even hanging out i wanted to until i saw the finale and you know when i had him on and i asked her okay. So what's the situation with you in and bobby post show is are you dating. Were you dating was there. A possibility today in her answer was that she was interested in you. She would have done the long distance thing from you with you but she just felt like you weren't interested and you had given her the cold shoulder so is this just something where it was. Hey we were on a show together. We got to where we did because we stuck together as much as we could've without you going off to carlos couple times and it was just somebody that you're you weren't interested post show i mean is it as simple as that also this up going into the show and at this point in my life. I'm not necessarily actively pursuing a relationship necessarily. I'll say <hes> so it's nothing against tatum. I just don't know if i really want to be in a relationship right now and it's fine if she does you know everybody's kind of as their own agenda related baeza different points in their life so for me it would have taken something really special for me to commit to a relationship so obviously taking my were never dating. We were just in a couple on a reality tv. Show tatum was a person that i had you know some feelings flora. I liked tatum issues cool shoes. You know fun to be around all that stuff. Even with the carlos situation i mean not completely forget for that so there is no hard feelings between him and i just was not ever never really seriously considering a an actual relationship with her <hes> and it is what it is though i for her yes. She made her feelings known. I think he would have been okay with china long distance relationship i would not have been okay china long distance relationship and and you know we work <unk> talk from time to time. I think she was getting upset with me because i wasn't. I wasn't responding to her in a timely fashion. I wasn't talking about every day started. She's upset with me and she found out that rosanna from the show came to st louis to visit me and rosanna had been all over the rosanna went to california. It is britney in some of the other gas number. She went to new york visit. Some of the cast members hang out and then she went to st louis and oh. I think tatum look like oh what you rosanna or a thing now and it's like no you know using our good friends come visit and so at that point she you know i guess that's the last straw for her and she's kind of cut off communication when she found out rosanna was gonna come to st louis. Oh it is what it is okay because that's basically what it was when i asked her what situation with you and bobby now and she's like no we don't even we don't even talk anymore and he knows why and i'm not going to get into it yeah and he probably won't get into it either and and that's where she left it. I'm like okay well. I'll ask him but i have no problem getting into it. I have no shame eamon. Adding rosanna <unk>. Were very close in the hotel. We had a great time together. She obviously was with tyler inner time there on the show obviously made her off limits and he is tyler was my body on the show so as long as toddlers ana were couple. I was never gonna you know even consider zana's option to room with but but in all reality after all that stuff sell down you know reside talked and you know. We just knew that we were good friends. We wanted hang out and see each other so it's nothing more than that. What is just <hes> you know. There's nothing wrong with rosanna being close and i'm. I'm sorry that that obviously pissed off. I didn't want pissed kim off but you know she has every right to to go about handled things anyway. She wants so yeah. I don't really talk too much at all lately because you know she was fed up with me and and and i get it i mean in fact the view. I was surprised she wanted to talk to me. At all after i did which i did finale and i dropped also. I thought that you'd never wanna talk to you again. After that surprised to find out those that wasn't the case but took everybody moves on and everybody's got bright futures ascherman if tames not going to be a part artemije future in any way shape or form and that's too bad but she has to do what's best for her and for removing her removing me from her life completely. He is what's best for her. Then soviet so post show is there. Any obscene sounds like you're friends with a lot of the cast and a lot of the cast has remained friends. I take it yeah absolutely not obviously from the cast. I would say probably closest. I'm obviously closer to tyler. I ever hung out a few times <hes> after the show he lives about an hour. West of chicago is about three and a half hours north of me. In saint louis and we've held out a few times. We talk almost every day. <hes> he's really cool guy. We can have similar direction so we wanna go future and then i came to visit. I'm going up to new york at the end of the month of is intellectually caitlyn mary laying on hans jackie speier so i consider myself to be pretty close with majority of the you you know the cast members and it was a special experience that we are all artist so you grow pretty close to people when you're all involved with something like that. You know we went into it knowing nobody so it's really easy to start to get along with people because college you go into it knowing nobody and everybody's open make friends and <hes> when you're all a part the same experience like that and you're all in it together. It's really easy even in a matter of you know four or five weeks to get pretty pretty close to each other so some people are like oh. You guys were just on a reality. Show like you know stop acting like your real friends. You don't get it. You spent twenty hours a day with these people with no phones no t._v. You can legitimately get pretty close to people in a month. You know it's basically a month long vacation yeah so yeah so it's not unrealistic at all for people to actually have in relationships out of that thing but find your love. This may be a little bit of a different story well. You're you're closest to tyler like you said i asked tatum this but i don't know how close tatum is with tyler and and i asked her is tyler still with what's the girlfriend who came on the show. I forget daily daily. Is he still with her because tatum was like i think they are but they're kind of some days they are. They aren't yes the exact status of that relationship you'll have to you'll got to reach out to tyler sometime in had asked us from him. I will say i believe that those two are still see each other on occasion on how often i don't know if they had an official title. Tyler doesn't really ever give me a straight answer on that either so obviously hope the best for both of them. I kinda try to stay out of that because you know it's not really my business right now. I think kinda gone through some rough patches the whole show and everything that happened so i don't know i don't know the status of that. So what about you po show like <hes> like you said your two hundred thousand dollars richer <hes>. What are your plans going forward in terms of job what you're doing. I know you're big into gulf. I've noticed <hes> and you've got a hell of a swing for a guy. That's his thick as you are like. I'm i was when i saw that instagram post most of your swing at the golf course at the driving range. I was like wow because usually people that are as built as you don't have that flexibility exa ability and they all kind of swing the same way having played golf myself over the years you have very like i was impressed by your swing for someone as ripped as you are because it's usually you just don't get that type of torque on a swing like that but you know what you're doing out there. What's your handicap by the way thanks man. Yeah lama scratched off. I played in your scratch golfer offer. Hope shit no wonder yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah i played in college at the university of tampa a scholarship to play golf and it's just something i like to to do something you can do your whole life's too big part of my life. It has nothing to do with my career or anything moving forward just like to do and the abbott the flexibility thing is it's funny because i can't even touch my toes <hes> but in terms of flexibility in my back and what it takes to generate torque and you you know i haven't had a quote unquote a solid golf swing <hes> i can still i can still make those moves but it's like if you ever watch the world long drive guys geyser built those guys are giant six three six four two hundred thirty pounds and if you wanna hit the ball far you know flexibility in technique comes first then any muscle stolen any strength you add to that swing keep going further and further so yeah golfer something i like to play with cardinal hall of fame shortstop stop ozzie smith the other day and buddy had wanted to try them. Pretty sweet was unbelievable but yeah. I'm a midwestern dude. You know i i go out on occasion stuff like that but not really a big partyer. I like to hang out with my buddies and play all go to the gym and <hes> for me moving moving forward. I'd like to find another show. You know. Okay fuck yeah. Absolutely absolutely. I definitely not going to work for a little while steve steve. I'm not gonna work for at least at least six eight months. I'm just gonna take it easy so i had some money saved up before this anyway so i'm just gonna you know what <music> what was your job before this. What did you do before. I always i was in sales. I was in automotive equipment. Sales corporate sales gig where i had a bill. They all big old territory in the midwest kind of traveled around made calls <unk> tool shadows trade show stuff like that it was gay. I loved it great people there yeah but you know i wasn't passionate about it so hopefully the next thing i do. You know i have some more passion for it. That's all i can ask for right yeah. No doubt i mean you. You earned two hundred thousand dollars that you didn't have before you went on the show so you can do whatever the hell you want with it and take as much time off as you want you mentioned other shows was like. Is there anything that pops into your head like. There's gotta be shows that obviously you are. Are there ones established out there that you're like. I would love to do that show one day. You know honestly i would like to i would i would like to show where it's just a cast of people living their lives like jersey shore type show and the reason is because then you're not worried about the game worried about getting voted off you know i want. I wanna be a part of the cool thing about some of those shows riches. Following people's lives whatever it is they're doing. Is you actually get to do a lot of character building and you're not stressed out as you're having a good time and people are entertained by so the stuff like the challenge all nj the bachelor or the bachelorette like that. It's kind of more of the same where you're constantly on edge because you're worried about getting voted out and i'm not opposed to doing a show like that. Atlit you know rendition of jersey shore floor amateur stuff like that anything along those lines <unk> in house full of buddies in your living your life at the time. I guess what i would like to do because i do because i do have a good time. I think you didn't get to see that when he washed. Paradise hotel is not going to be time we had we. We get if you drink than us and we'd hit went down. There was fucking hilarious and you just didn't really get it. You didn't really get a sense of that because they had to stick to the plot they stick to you know what the show is about which was staying in a couple in getting voted out so all the little funny stuff that happened behind the scenes in a lot of that didn't make the final edit. It's too bad because there's some cool people in the show with some cool personalities and you just didn't necessarily get to see that no that's understandable like you said it's it's a television show and they have to show oh the game aspect of it and who's scheming in sue because then stuff if they don't show that part then stuff that then stuff would happen it wouldn't make sense. They had to show a backstory backstory as to why things lead up to certain things and yeah on a show like that. They're not gonna show a bunch of people having fun and just let loose exactly back. Maybe maybe if they had that full full span episodes they intended they would have more if they had the fleas exactly so it's but <hes> anyway bobby <hes> congratulations on on the win and good luck with everything in the future i really appreciate you coming on and taking the time <hes> to do this for an hour and i'm sure the fans are gonna love it as well so <hes> good luck in the future and we'll be in touch thanks to you they had me on you got about thanks a lot to bobby ray for that and to tatum before him really cool to hear from both of them. They're obviously not seeing the things right now but who knows maybe they will down the road. Just wanna tell you that this podcast brought to you by kiko ky-ko's projects and designed to spark creativity tinkering and learning and kids of all ages. They may be learning about steam fun. They aren't a mission to empower kids not just to make a project but to make a difference kiko is offering in reality podcast listeners the chance to try them for free to redeem this offer and learn more about the projects for kids of all ages visit kiwi co dot com slash steve. That's i w i c o dot com slash steve you know one thing that bobby said during the podcast that i that i gave a little little fought to and it didn't say it at the time but he's talking about when i asked him about the winner and you know he said in his mind david kendall deserved to to win and then obviously his the reason why they didn't win was because what did he say well. If david kendall one that would have been really the anti-climactic and kinda boring because they were there for love and within the theme of the show yeah they would've probably deserved to win but it wouldn't have been good t._v. and then him and tatum one and you know he talked about the finale and how it was a great finale and but he didn't agree with what tatum did during the show to get to that place said look all you had to do was to stay with me but when he says that about david kendall now thinking about it it's like but if tatum never does anything and never you're tries to play jar and tries to get carlos eliminated by going behind bobby raised back and they didn't have drama between them then maybe bobby in tatum or the couple ends up being david kendall and at that particular checkout people eliminate them like if there was no. It was almost like i get. We're bobby is saying but the fact that him and tatum did have some drama and they weren't like the solid couple that held hands all day long and you know slept together the whole show and and 'cause no drama and we're frankly kind of boring like david kendall were. That's what got david kendall voted out so maybe if he it's almost like i am i know bobby. He was bothered by the kendall stuff in early tatum stuff and that's why he eventually dropped on her because he felt he couldn't trust her however it's almost like without out that they might not have gotten that far so it is interesting. I mean there's there's obviously this is the first season in fifteen years. There's no correct way to play but the way that bobby one. The game was different than how tatum played and how bobby played. They looked like they were in different. They were on different sides of things but you know bobby. Ultimately has has the scoreboard in this because he one hundred thousand and tatum walked away with nothing nothing unfortunately but that finale was fun to watch. I mean if you if you missed it it. It really was interesting. You can even check it out. I'm sure it's still up on fox or hulu somewhere anyway. Thank you very much to both of them. <hes> for sharing their stories with with us this week please rate subscribe and review in apple podcasts always very much appreciated. We are in the top ten of any any shows all the shows on apple podcasts. We are in the top ten on the tv and film category which is great. We moved up to number eight. I believe last week and and the hayley stevens episode couple of weeks ago got us <hes> that particular episode got got as high as number two <hes> libya's episode last week got in the top ten so let's make the tatum and bobby interview make the top ten as well. That'd be great anyway. Thank you all for tuning in to podcast number one thirty eight and <hes> next next week. We're back in the bachelor world as i don't want to jinx it yet but it is somebody i've talked about in the past that i've wanted to get on supposedly. I'm going to be recording with them later today so i'll have that in the can hopefully for the next week and run it next week but we're to record today and it's definitely bachelor related. I think you're gonna like this anyway. Thank you off tuning into podcasts and thirty eight. I really appreciate it and we will talk to you next week. Yeah uh-huh.

bobby bobby carlos carlos bobby bobby ray tatum smith paradise hotel tyler rosanna bobby bobby gine carlos bobby bobby ray bob bobby knight partner arizona walmart carlo caitlyn youtube amazon Steve caitlin caitlin hannah

Wednesday, April 8, 2020 - The Christian Science Monitor Daily

The Christian Science Monitor Daily

13:49 min | 10 months ago

Wednesday, April 8, 2020 - The Christian Science Monitor Daily

"Welcome to the. Monitor daily podcast. It's Wednesday April eighth. Thanks for joining us. I'm mark sapping field and I'm no L. Swan as you might imagine. I'm talking to readers a lot these days. In a time of Corona virus. There is no shortage of questions but I particularly liked one from a reader last week. If Mike Gardner comes to mow my lawn will he get arrested looking across the world everyday? It's apparent how many different approaches there are lockdowns. New Zealand's rules have been so strict that the prime minister held a national. Qna from home. After putting her kids to bed she also publicly castigated a member of her government caught mountain biking though she did declared the Easter Bunny and essential worker. The country has had only one corona virus Steph. Meanwhile Sweden has so far done comparatively little with movie theaters restaurants and schools. Still Open this week. America story has played out regionally with people in blue states restricting their activities more than those in red states according to the economist where have conversations with our readers ended up I know local laws and advisories and then be worthy of the responsibility? Were given even if you're the Easter bunny now to our five stories including a look at what wartime footing means in the US how to help those forced to stay at home with abusers and the rise of the in house marathon. Our first story. The White House has adopted the rhetoric of a wartime footing to combat the corona virus but private producers are largely going it alone out of necessity and purpose across the United States. Hundreds of manufacturers are switching gears to produce medical and protective equipment for the fight against Cova Nineteen. It's a macgyver moment for everyone from shop. Floor technicians to university students. Other companies are ramping up. Existing production lines of essential items. Like face masks and hand sanitizer but the role of the federal government in directing this logistical effort has been haphazard beset by inconsistent leadership and a seeming aversion to central planning in crisis repeated pleas from state governors for a coordinated national response have largely fallen flat. There's a lot of ingenuity says David Kendall a health policy expert but the federal government needs to be helping organize that supply chain and making sure that everything is getting distributed efficiently and fairly our production surge is finally building albeit in a less orderly way than many would wish but it is happening and for many companies it's offering a sense of purpose and potential revenue at a time when much of the economy is falling off a cliff. This story it was reported by Mark. Trumbull IN ROCKVILLE Maryland. For the Monitor. Stay at home. Orders are meant to keep people safe mid the corona virus pandemic. But how do you protect people? Who Live with their abusers. It's a trend. Seen across Europe since lockdowns began to contain the corona virus pandemic. Britain's national domestic abuse helpline has seen a twenty five percent rise in calls and online reporting of domestic abuse while Spain's emergency number for domestic violence noted eighteen percent more calls during the first two weeks of lockdown than the same period one month. Prior the lockdown has particularly highlighted the vulnerability of many women in France where in recent years one woman has been killed due to domestic violence every three days. French police recorded a thirty six percent jump in reports of domestic abuse in Paris during the first week after France went into lockdown on March seventeenth and thirty two percent rise elsewhere in France amid the uptick in reports the French government. Ramped up its efforts following on the heels of a Spanish program. The French government announced that French women should utilize their local pharmacies to discreetly report abuse. The French government will also open around. Twenty pop-up counseling centers in stores across Paris and in the northern city of Lille where women can drop in while shopping. It has designated one million euros to help domestic abuse organizations and said it will pay for up to twenty thousand hotel rooms for victims. The story was reported by Colette. Davidson in Paris. For the Monitor running five thousand laps around your bed. Indoor marathons might sound crazy but for these joggers. They are a way to stay centered challenged and creative at a trying time three weeks ago. She heated Congo was at the peak of her training for the comrades. The world's largest ultra marathon. Which is run in South Africa? Each June she was taking on weekly marathons like they were casual jobs and then the world around her started to shrink on March twenty third as cases of the novel Corona Virus ticked upward. The country announced a twenty one. Day lockdown no leaving home except for food or medicine but for Miss Congo. That doesn't mean no running it. Just running around her postage-stamp backyard ducking under a washing line. On every loop around the world government restrictions to fight Cova nineteen have changed the way we exercise and for a dedicated few. It's given rise to a new kind of challenge to run ever longer distances. In ever smaller spaces for some at home marathons or a way to raise money for charity or offer inspiration for others there a way to stay centered in the midst of a crisis that can seem overwhelming. Isn't that what life is about? Finding different challenges and conquering them says Mr Bongo. We run marathons we run ultras. But maybe it's only by running in tiny circles that we can really test our minds and find our breaking point. This story was reported by Ryan. Lenora Brown in your hottest Berg for the monitor rituals give comfort so often disorder this year. The Passover Seder may be a smaller affair but it offers our writer comfort and a chance to reflect on the world. We HOPE TO REENTER. This year was to have marked. The fifty first kraft family and friends. Seder it's still happening not in but over four time zones via zoom. Passover is the Jewish holiday that commemorates the children of Israel's exodus from slavery in Egypt. It is called the festival of freedom. One that this year is being held while most of the planet is under de facto house. Arrest HERE IN ISRAEL. A three-day curfew has just begun and at its height. Wednesday night until Thursday morning. People won't be able to Rome more than one hundred meters from home. The ceremonial meal marking the beginning of the holiday is a festive song and food filled night during the meal. Jews are commanded to retell the story of leaving Egypt so that the next generation should know who they are where they came from and that in every generation there is a promised land that awaits our. Israel correspondent finds comfort in that sentiment. Now that we will all be free again this shall pass and we will merge hopefully changed for the better wiser more compassionate for the suffering of others and aware in ways that only hardship can remind us of how connected and dependent on one another we truly are the story was reported by Dina Kraft in tel-aviv for the Monitor beneath the double entendre title of the Popular Canadian Sitcom Shits Creek lies a show that Canadian say embraces their core values of tolerance and community with its departure this week after six seasons leaving devastated fans across North America in its wake the cheekily named Sitcom Shits Creek closes the curtain on TV Community. That reflects the very values of openness whether over class or identity that are so often associated with Canada today. The show named for the fictional town where the cosmopolitan rose family ends up after losing. Its money resembles the rural communities that Canadians. No but instead of over the top tropes it features nods to what some say are identifiably Canadian characteristics like collectively Americans embrace rugged individualism says Laura. Grins staff associated with at the University of California Davis whereas the Rose family. She says it doesn't arrive in this sort of new space. Geographically or more importantly emotionally without being part of a community in a collective viewers have taken that spirit and formed their own communities. It's such a highlight for us to be able to watch this every Tuesday night and we're in the middle of pandemic and it's over said superfan Louise downs. It feels so silly but it really does feel like I'm losing a best friend. I can't imagine life without moir arose. This story was reported by Sarah Miller. Yana in Toronto for the Monitor Now commentary on Prime Minister. Boris Johnson from the Monitor's editorial board one of the world's most powerful figures British prime minister. Boris Johnson has been laid low by the corona virus. News of his hospitalization would be compelling enough yet. The public response is just as newsworthy. Across Britain people have placed signs outside houses saying pray for Boris this hints at a spiritual revival of concern for the weakest during this health crisis. No matter what their station in life the covert nineteen emergency has magnified a common religious practice to look after the desolate. The poor the weak with healing prayer and justice right now the wealthy countries that already have jumped on the virus are turning their attention to poor countries to help them stamp out the disease and stop a deepening of the global economic collapse. It's still unclear if the global trauma will lead to a renewed. Long term interest in spirituality. Yet in the United States a Gallup poll found nineteen percent of Americans said. Their faith or spirituality has gotten better as a result of the crisis. This helps explain the outpouring of prayers for the British Prime Minister. That's a wrap for the news. You can find the full length versions of the stories in today's issue or at CS monitor dot com slash daily. Thank you for joining us today. Please come back tomorrow. When Krista case Bryant looks at how officials make decisions about Krona virus measures when scientists don't yet agree on the data and interpretations today's Christian Science Spiritual Perspective contributor shares. How living far from home feeling overwhelmed and lonely. She earned for peace and companionship the realization that God is always with us even when it feels like. We're all allowed profoundly. Changed her life for the better. We can find the column in today's issue or at CS MONITOR DOT com slash. Dave want give quick thanks to our staff including today's audio production team. Jeff turn and Rebecca Suba. This podcast is produced by the Christian. Science Monitor Copyright Twenty Twenty.

prime minister United States Paris Israel French government Cova Boris Johnson France federal government Britain Egypt Mike Gardner New Zealand Twenty Twenty L. Swan Sweden Colette
Full Episode: Wednesday, December 11, 2019

World News Tonight with David Muir

19:49 min | 1 year ago

Full Episode: Wednesday, December 11, 2019

"Are you hiring with indeed. You can post a job in minutes. Set up screener questions then. Zero in on your shortlist of qualified candidates using an online dashboard get started today. Indeed dot com slash tonight. That's indeed dot com slash tonight tonight several developing stories that chilling new video the targeted attack surveillance tonight at the deadly shootout outside New York City. The mayor now calling it a targeted hate crime you can see the two gunmen a man and a woman and then panic in the streets as they head into a market killing three inside and killing a police detective to tonight. The antisemitic and anti police writings Dow discover the storm slamming slamming the east heavy snow and ice truck sliding right into Lake Michigan and behind it. All temperatures about plummeting rob timing it out the battle of the hill tonight. After after the Inspector General's report determine no deep state no spying on the trump campaign contradicting president trump tonight the brilliance of the hill the IGA GE dodging. His Report Does Not Vindicate Anyone. This hodler grandfather's arms who fell from a crucial window and died tonight. The family taking action of its own new fury tonight involving Harvey Weinstein Hobbling into court today while outside court. The forty seven million dollar settlement for several accusers at reports Weinstein will not have to pay for it himself or admit any wrongdoing the plane crashing into a neighborhood landing industry hitting several cars. How secure is your home surveillance? A woman claiming someone have to do or security camera. You could hear his voice at his claim that he could see her kidney this this is ABC news tonight with David Muir good eating. It's great to have you with us here on this Wednesday night and we begin tonight with the chilling new surveillance of what authorities are now calling winging targeted and deadly attack just outside New York City. The mayor calling it a hate crime. Police are now looking closely at this surveillance video tonight the two gunmen a man and a woman getting out of a van crossing the street. They're opening fire inside that Kosher Grocery store three people were killed inside. A police. Detective had been killed right before police police arriving quickly and then SWAT teams. The firefight went on for hours bystanders. Running away from the danger and tonight we are learning more here about the suspect's the pipe bomb that was founded in a stolen u-haul that day and they anti police anti Semitic writings online. ABC's Adrian Banker leads us off from Jersey City tonight. We have chilling surveillance valence video that captures the horror at that Kosher Market in New Jersey and what police say was a targeted attack. Both suspects slowly emerging from a stolen U Haul van before before one of them aims a high powered rifle at the store and opens fire. There are multiple other people on the streets so there were many other targets available to them that they bypassed to attack to attack doc plays so it was a it was clearly that was their target and they intended to harm people inside. Police say the two gunned down the owner Mendy Ferenza a mother of five and employees employees. Miguel Douglas and customer Mois Chez Deutsche. Fu hundred bullets went into a body of twenty year. Twenty four all year old child. How can we as a community that one person in the market was injured but survived the hail of bullets at Terrorized Jersey City for hours yesterday? The suspects killed in the gunbattle identified tonight. As fifty year old. Francine Graham and forty seven year old David Anderson sources tell. ABC News. That Anderson recently made antisemitic posts online. Line it all started. When detective Joe Seals investigating the murder of an Uber driver encountered the suspects at this cemetery? Police say they killed the officer. A father of five driving having a mile to that Jewish market at just afternoon for more than three hours in a standoff with heavily armed officers felt like we were war. That's what it sounds. They found like Desert Storm out here like we were in the end police ramming the store with an armored truck bodies of the suspects and the victims found inside. Authorities did recover a pipe bomb uh-huh and religious writings from that stolen u-haul the suspects believed to be members of the Black Israelites considered by the F. B. I. to be a domestic terror group known for Anti Jewish and anti-police views. There's no question that this is a hate crime police now. Pointing to the bravery of the officers who contain the violence including two patrolmen. I set the scene and wounded. Yesterday could have been far deadlier and the reason it was not as due to the heroism of the men and women of the Jersey City Police Department and Adrian. Adrian bankers back with us again tonight from outside at market and Adrian. I know you're learning more about the suspects tonight. Yes so one of the suspects David Anderson had a history of criminal offenses including weapons charges. Now we know that tonight two of those innocent victims will be laid to rest though. Also hold a vigil for all of the victims at the cemetery where detective seals was murdered. Meanwhile the kosher market behind us here. The scene of those merciless killings boarded up David Adrian banker leading US off tonight Adrian. Thank you and we move on now to the major storm in the east and bitter cold right behind it for much of the country firefighters near Buffalo New York battling a house fire in the snow and look at this in Chicago assault truck sliding backward right into Lake Michigan to crew members inside escaping. Just in time now. The Major Temperature Swing Senior Meteorologist Rob Marciano tracking it all force again tonight. I David Front finally into the Atlantic and here comes that cold air pouring and behind the lake effect snow machine is cranking we even have snow. squall warnings up into into Vermont. Much of New York as well Ontario area winter storm warnings for parts of northern mission. Go there is. The big story is the deep South tomorrow morning. Wind chills below zero Roy. Freezing in Atlanta and Birmingham twelve. New York. Eight and Boston will feel like minus three in Minneapolis but the next door is going to bring more in the way of Warren Mayor. Look at this on Friday heavy rain across the east coast again warming up the backside of this will be will be a mess on Saturday from DC New York and into Boston. David Marciano with us. Rob Thanks has always in now to the battle on Capitol Hill tonight over the report of the Russia investigation that determine no deep state no spying on the trump campaign the author of that report the Inspector Inspector. General Michael Horowitz saying the launch of the Russia investigation was in fact justified. But he did acknowledge today that his Report Does Not Vindicate Anyone. Here's ABC's is chief. Justice correspondent Pierre Thomas now on Capitol Hill today. The Justice Department's Inspector General. Michael Horowitz defending his conclusion that the FBI. It was justified in launching investigation into Russia and the trump campaign we did not find documentary or testimonial evidence that indicated political cool bias or improper motivation that conclusion now under attack from the attorney. General William Barr himself bar also insisting the FBI may have acted in bad bad faith. Did you show this report to attorney general bar before it was released. Yeah as standard process the we provide this to the attorney general and to the FBI director it. He suggests any changes. He didn't suggest any changes did attorney. General bar provide any evidence that caused you dude alter this key finding that the FBI investigation had an adequate predic- no we stand by our finding president trump tweeting from the White House. They spied on my campaign and you didn't find a deep state conspiracy against candidate or president trump So as to the opening we found no no bias no testimony documentary events on that but her did have tough words for the FBI thing thing they made basic fundamental and serious errors in the investigation withholding evidence that could've weakened their case. You know I think the Activities We found aired on Vindicate Anybody Eddie who touched this decided one. FBI Attorney who altered documents in order to get US surveillance warrant for trump campaign. Associate Carter page. Is it kind of off the charts ban A and it's pretty bad. So let's get back to Pierre Thomas with us again tonight from the Justice Department. NPR's Attorney General Bill Bar not willing to accept the finding that bias was not not at the root of this FBI investigation that was launched. But today the Inspector General stood firm on that point was quite firm Davis saying think over and over again that he stands by everything is important and he said he did not take the job to be popular. David Beard Thomas with US tonight as well. Thank you peer. We turn now to impeachment the House Judiciary Committee tonight launching their final debate on articles of impeachment against President Trump. In fact lawmakers are expected to go late into the night. So let's get right to Capitol Hill tonight. Mary Bruce with us live again in Mary. Timing for folks at home here. The Judiciary Committee expected to vote tomorrow. The full House voting next week on impeachment and tonight you're learning now. Oh new information about the Senate trial that is now a foregone conclusion well David we are told that Republicans in the Senate want to move quickly. Here they are now trying a trial. I'm about just two weeks now. The president has said he wants Hunter Biden and the whistle blower to testify but Republicans. We've talked with say they don't WanNa hear from any witnesses at all the president's allies analyzing the Senate say that impeachment is hurting the country they say the whole process is a sham. And they simply don't want this to drag on mayor you also learned tonight that Senate Republicans are hoping for a quick quick trial when it comes in January after the holidays and they're now trying to get a president trump on board with this idea. Well we know that inside the White House. The president's aides are trying to convince convince him that a shorter trial is actually better for him. Politically their argument is to get this over with and for the president to focus instead on making his case to the American people ahead of the election election. David Mary Bruce Watching the evening Mary. Thank you in now to that. New Fury Tonight involving disgraced movie producer. Harvey Weinstein seen hobbling into port today for a hearing hearing his criminal trial while separately. Tonight there's also word of a forty seven million dollar settlement with several other accusers and reports. That he will not have to pay for it himself self or admit any wrongdoing. Here's EVA pilgrim Ey frail harvey Weinstein hobbling into court today. His bail raised to five million dollars hours after prosecutors say. He violated his ankle bracelet monitoring rules dozens of times just hours later word of forty seven million dollar settlement with dozens of his his accusers. A source briefed on the deal says after attorney fees about thirty one million will be shared among more than thirty women who have accused Weinstein of sexual misconduct ranging ranging from harassment to rape. Weinstein is not required to admit to any wrongdoing and the money would reportedly be paid by his studios insurance company. Any not out of Weinstein's own pocket. The disgraced producer is now preparing for his trial in January on charges of rape and sexual assault from two women. One one of them Mimi. Khaleej says Weinstein forced himself on her in two thousand six when she was working as a production assistant. Women have the right to say no and now is the no regardless of circumstances and I told Harvey no the two women in the criminal case are not a party to this settlement. All Men Weinstein has pleaded not guilty and has consistently denied any allegations of non consensual sex with anyone dave. They're still other accusers. Who are not part of this a settlement and again the criminal proceedings continue continue Eva? Thank you we turn next tonight. The family of the toddler who fell to her death from a cruise ship window right out of the arms of her grandfather. That family is now filed a lawsuit against Royal Caribbean. The little girl's parents saying this all could have been avoided. Here's Victor Kindo tonight. A heartbroken in family is suing. Royal Caribbean Sing. The company is to blame for the death of their toddler Khloe. We don't want us to happen to another family. I cannot even put into into words what it's like to lose a child especially in such a horrible way in July. The weekend family was on board this ship docked in Puerto Rico Khloe grandfather. Salmonella Annella was with their near a wall of windows and says he picked her up so she could tap on the glass like she used to let her brother's hockey games but the window was open and chloe slipped out of his arms and fell. Sit here broken. We all sit here broken but our family is strong and we will stay strong together a Nilo. Oh insisting he thought the window was closed the weekends standing by his side saying it was world caribbeans fault. Why were this windows left open? Why is this like this immediately we? CBS asking these questions. They shouldn't have been like that. The wrongful death suit says World Caribbean was negligent and failed to adequately marked the open windows and provide reasonably notably save children entertainment areas the company telling ABC News. Our hearts go onto the family for their tragic loss. Adding we have no comment on the civil filing Khloe. Khloe grandfather is fighting a negligent homicide charge in Puerto Rico. He's due back in court next week. David Kendall with tonight thank you Victor and we turn now to an ABC News Investigation Vestige tonight we have been reporting here on the increasing violence south of the border in Mexico. Several Americans members of that Mormon family killed but tonight another troubling portrait adhere families in Mexico parents mothers looking for their missing children but getting no help. ABC's Dan Harris and what he found in Mexico is at war. Violence has reached record levels. This year is either cooler. We're told there is human head drug cartels waging aging open gunbattles in the street killing nine Americans just last month mothers and children from a Mormon family living there for decades by conservative assertive estimates. There are forty thousand missing people. In Mexico Lucy Diaz was leading a comfortable life. That all changed one night in June of two thousand thirteen. I know that he was kidding. But so far. That's all I know at the time. Her twenty nine year old son Louis was working as a popular. Dj in in the city of Veracruz last year potentially huge break in the case. The police found Lewis's motorcycle and the individual. who was writing the stolen bike back? Did you bring him in at least to interrogate him and they said not yet laziness no I think his corruption lucy. He has now organized hundreds of other mothers who are also desperately searching for their children here in Veracruz just ten miles from this dump over over. Three hundred bodies were exhumed at a mass grave. This is a skill you've developed now to be able to smell for dead but yeah yeah but isn't it the job of the police police to investigate crimes and find bodies it is it is. This is Mexico. Carlos Santana is the National Commissioner in charge of searching for or the disappeared. How have we gotten to the point in this country where it's mothers who have to bear the injury of losing their children and then have to endure? You're the insult of being forced to go then. Do the searches themselves. Well I think it's because Government they enter much about who has been disappeared so essentially in this country you can kill. Somebody bury them in shallow grave and get away with it. Well I'm a public servant but I have to say yes. That is a stunning acknowledgment win. Tonight I know you also pressed the Mexican president on this at a live nationally. Cover a televised press conference. I asked him. Will you help Lucy. And he said yes in front of the whole country nine months later tonight Lucy tells us she has not received so much as a phone call but this is an overwhelming problem. Dan Thank you GonNa have much more of his reporting from inside Mexico that's later tonight on nightline and if you can't stay up that late we hope you'll set your dvr important reporting. Thanks Dan new questions tonight about some home security systems after a woman claims her Surveillance Camera Camera was hacked here. Steve Asami a couple in suburban Atlanta tonight says the only reason they bought one of these ring security cameras three weeks ago was to keep an eye on the dog. Wake up but on Monday night while the girlfriend was sleeping in bed she heard a strange voice coming from the bedroom camera. Brought up. What you're hearing is the voice of someone who had hacked into their device and may have used stolen password a digital prowler? She recorded with her cell phone. I see the Blue Light. Come on and so I'm texting my boyfriend's saying you know why are you watching. He's like what are you talking about. The couple doesn't want it'd be identified and spoke with our partner. WSB TV in Atlanta bring should have the safety precautions. Already set in place where you never have to worry about it. Police here here are investigating. An statement. Reading says this is no way connected to a breach or compromise their security and they're encouraging customers to change change their passwords regularly to the index of other news. The small plane crash in Phoenix coming down on several parked cars the plane crashing while approaching the airport toward a pilot and passenger on board. No one was seriously hurt. There are new questions tonight about whether the FAA did enough. After the first Boeing seven thirty-seven Max jet crash. FAA administrator. Stephen Dixon on the hot seat today over the agency's own report after that first crash that found if the gas flight control software was not corrected. There could be as many as fifteen. Fatal crashes over the life of the fleet five months later as you'll remember not open airlines flight crashed killing one hundred fifty seven and the new space race tonight. Jeff bezos space company blue origin launching a test flight of its new shepherd spacecraft designed to carry tourists space booster rocket successfully landing rights back and Time Magazine's person of the year revealed sixteen year old Greta Thunder for her global effort to combat climate change challenging world leaders to to do much more funny tonight here. America strong the Texas family. That never gave up the Christmas song finally on the Radio Johnny Johny gunnison from Cyrus Texas. His wife high school sweethearts their first date was to Christmas ball the ornaments still on the tree. But there's something else they've carried all. These is years song. Johnny wrote Nineteen Sixty Five. He played in the band inspired by his children when they stopped Christmas. Trees always said Ho. Ho Ho Ho. Oh Ho what I could do that. And I stayed up to three o'clock in the morning and I wrote the song the words it is song. Christmas is here Shelvin. Johnny hit records made and tried to get it on the radio. I want something a happened to this song. The before you know I go meet my maker so with help from his family of video on youtube a story story on Ktar K.. Local radio station. What Oh four point one agree? It was finally time fifty four years since it was recorded. Christmas is hear the dream is coming true right now. Not right there in the studio Johnny. Thank you. Thank you for a wonderful as the song goes. Christmas is here for Jani. We love Johnny and now millions more her tonight good night are you hiring with indeed you can post a job in minutes set up screener questions then zero win. On your shortlist of qualified candidates using an online dashboard get started today at indeed dot com slash. Tonight that's indeed dot com slash tonight.

Harvey Weinstein president ABC News New York City Mexico FBI ABC David Anderson Attorney President Trump ABC Lake Michigan officer Lucy Diaz Atlanta Rob Marciano Khloe US
"I Would Stop Digging"

The Investigation

29:49 min | 1 year ago

"I Would Stop Digging"

"Welcome to the investigation on Chris Vlasto senior executive producer I heard ABC News. I'm joined by my colleague Johnson Tucci in Washington and we're joined by special guest Gregg former special counsel to President Clinton lead I photographers and scientists at the edges of our big bazaar and beautiful world overheard from National Geographic available now on your favorite podcast APP There was not evidence of of the kind of misconduct that the house accused him of in the course of the trial five votes were four acquittal out of one hundred sixty seven will required for conviction and removal of office and so I think not only did we maintain President Clinton's innocence and gain the votes of all the Democrats in the Senate divided country to impeach president but to remove a president in divided country is not possible requires bipartisanship requires a unity a consensus that the president should be removed and absent that kind of consensus it's not gonNA happen terms of domestic agenda that was successful slavishly an economy that was going well with the budget surplus along with international successes I think all feedings will I think they verdict speaks for itself in a Republican dominated Senate fifty be during that period of time and he was able to do that I think one of the reasons that his approval rating remains so strong throughout the period yeah I've noticed that myself actually One of the strategies of the Clinton defense was for the president to be the best possible president he could of his impeachment and his trial was the success he was having internationally. He negotiated a peace agreement between the Palestinians and the added to the fact that the American public were not ready and did not want to remove him from office and that's putting apart the fact that headlines where he was acquitted on federal charges of lying to the Justice Department we try to ask him questions about his own case and he refused to answer but we still wanted his insights on the Clinton impeachment and how it compares to the impeachment inquiry going on today so Mr Craig what did you do right twenty years ago in the impeachment others and Mark Fabiani and etcetera all kind of working on the defense in this case with Donald trump he seems to be the lead attorney on his own defense we picked up ten votes from the Republicans so I think there are many lessons to be learned from that impeachment one of the lessons is that it is possible in a police in the communities and smaller class sizes in schools at the same time the economy was really performing well so those three considerations and he will not be removed but let me ask you you started the Clinton defense pre impeachment the difference that I we've spoken to others on this pod Israeli's and on the budget he negotiated an agreement with the majorities in the House and the Senate for increased numbers and I think you know fact for fact the reason that we were successful in the trial was that there was not sufficient evidence to support a convict cast we obviously spoke to Jane Sherburne we've spoken to David Bossie and what they all commented about is during that time President Clinton and Walt himself off from the actual investigation into him and went off and tried to do the business of the country and had a whole team with you and Shen and did you have to convince President Clinton to do that I mean he's a Yale lawyer he was very smart guy didn't he want to be part of his defense I think he understood the points of him re removing himself from it I mean I agree with that analysis that one of the reasons that we were successful was his success as a president and so he had a very good team it was a dedicated team they were inexperienced team John Podesta was the chief of staff at the time and chocolate rothwells council and David Kendall was the president's personal counsel and I think the president had confidence in his team and we kept in touch with him as to what what's going on and he certainly let us know his views about various issues that came about but I think you're right that it would have been a mistake for him to engage in the lawyering of his own case and I think perhaps president trump is making that mistake now and now when you look at what he's handled this very well I think she made it quite clear that she was reluctant to begin an impeachment inquiry Congress let's get the Miller report out of this this new impeachment inquiry right When you see what Nancy Pelosi is doing I mean it's it's her not to react to the fact that the president was doing taking actions engage in conduct that could influence unfairly the unique way of doing this now though she's not using the judiciary it's not a formal inquiry I mean do you think she's doing the right thing without I do I think she with and the evidence associated with the allegations of misconduct and of course once an impeachment process begins as and felt that she had to do so because of the impact that the president's conduct might have on the twenty twenty election and it would be irresponsible for outcome of the two thousand election so I think she felt the need to have an impeachment inquiry and I think she is focused on the issues associated ransom there that's a procedure that you actually respect I do know she does not have the advantage that say I think it's important for the house to go about this with the adequate gravitas it is a serious business to consider impeaching oppressed different process underway and so it is a hugely important and solemn decision and that'll be the last thing I would less solemn it is and so she I think is appreciating that and is trying to make sure that is dealt with the same kind of attention September the impeachment hearings and the Judiciary Committee in the house weren't until September October nineteen ninety eight so there was eight or nine Kenneth Starr's team that hasn't happened here and I think one of the things that the speaker is trying to do is to be to be well from from the constitutional point of view I think there are certain obligations that the White House has consistent with breath executive privilege good faith into executive privilege claims to provide documents even if it's not formally to be quick to be speedy and to be efficient so that this process doesn't hang over the nation for a long period of time if you recall all the the investigation of President Clinton went began I think in January the star report was not sent over to the House of Representatives until impeachment inquiry there's supervisory authority that this legislative branch of government has and responsibilities to oversee the activity mm-hmm and removing him and the more it is fought out in the talk shows or the food fights in the media of the eight months that this cloud of impeachment hung over the President United States I think the speaker is trying to get this accomplished expedition I know it takes all the oxygen out of everything else it's very difficult to get things accomplished in the house or the Senate if there's an impeachment underway the Republican leadership had when President Clinton was being impeached because there's no special counsel that had conducted months and months of that it's a little hard to follow this through the way because the depositions that we've been seeing happening for the last three weeks they've all been done behind closed doors but it sounds like just based on it's very difficult for anything to occur in the presidential campaign really that's going to get the kind of attention at otherwise would if there's an appeal turn on his opponent Joe Biden do you think though that Democrats should also use the muller report in an impeachment inquiry or should they stick to AAC in your opinion from having dealt with it in your past role for the Clinton White House is a mistake to constantly rebuff does there have to be a little bit of give or take care what they have here which a lot of people in America changed a lot of people thought Muller didn't have the goods but a lot of people look at this situation in fact efforts by the president to have a foreign government intervene in our political process by investigating heard that it would be a problem for him so it does seem to me that on that issue the house testify a number of different times in front of the grand jury so there was an investigation that he had already been conducted in the Clinton era by title was the military assistance to Ukraine withheld at the direction of the president because of in seriousness as any other very important issue that comes before the House it's interesting you say that because you know one of the things that people have been saying to us is he's a bureaus in the executive branch so I think the process that the White House has adopted as of now almost guarantee season there's going to be at least one count of obstruction of justice because it's very hard to believe that their position is in good faith one of his political adversaries and I would focus the investigation on that issue and whether or not the president wrongfully used have a quid pro quo expectation and I think Senator Graham has focused our attention on that with his most recent remarks because he has said if that in fact in other than just trying to prevent access to evidence that's pertinent and in fact it may boil down to an issue of fact was for example news we've seen every request for documents that has been sent their way they've said thanks but no thanks where does that ultimately bring this fight and is it a mistake investigation interviews grand jury I mean I think you had John Podesta on this show earlier and if he asked him John I think you had representatives is entitled to whatever communications exist in connection with that action that the president took let me ask you though too she has a you know pass practice yeah past practices of obstruction I mean even in the sense and show the nine different cases and I think it is it is clearly becoming the focus of this Ukraine conversation the use of the presidential power resign he's probably not going to agree or stipulate any facts so the real question is what issues I'm Greg obviously this investigation is focusing on July twenty fifth phone call of the president you know trying to dig up dirt or asking Ukrainians to dig it military assistance that had been voted by the Congress as leverage to get that kind of intervention so let me just finish Mike should in fact be the issues that are at the heart of decision whether or not he should be impeached and removed asleep and I agree with that process but don't you think though one of the things that's a little hard to follow is that you have six different committees right now as far as the houses no collusion and no obstruction and what we have developing now is evidence of both collusion and obstruction and I think that's not it and say okay they can see the evidence clear as day do you think it would be bad strategy or good strategy to bring muller into it you're asking me to if I wanted to Mike request my question from John Because it does seem to me the president's theme with respect to the Muller report was no being mistake to get the focus elsewhere well I'll just continue the hubbub when the president the other day some say he was being facetious some say wasn't when he brought up in ways that are unacceptable and inappropriate and unconstitutional inconsistent with his oath that is where I think we're focused on and I think it would the president's interests but it appears at that's where it's going but would you would deep muller report kind of build the case stronger that he sation with the Chinese and use the same kind of leverage and abuse the powers of his office the same way with the Chinese as he has apparent earned anywhere they were trying to do these investigations when you look at the trump administration so far they're not cooperating right they're not showing up for interview aged in wrongdoing whether he abused the powers of the president presidency if if it if it comes out that he in fact had the same kind of combat early rough actually labeled the charges against President Clinton as witches brew and we see President Trump right now the freeze that he likes to use almost every other second is which which which hunt do you think that the branding and communication strategy that the White House is attempting to employ works and what would you say in that respect was the biggest lesson you took away from twenty years ago the China idea I mean do you think we forgive this president more than we would Bill Clinton Bill Clinton had said that we would we would have been seven investigation of that but I don't think it means that just by making that one comment he is engaged in wrongdoing rises to the level of an impeachable could it opened the and you know to the select committee on intelligence that has not been available to the public let let's go back a little bit of we can grow to just how the with the president of Ukraine so there is I think sufficient evidence of the president's abuse of power in that regard to warrant further investigation the greatest I guess the greatest lesson there there's so many lessons to be drawn from the Clinton impeachment I think I've already You you now have a to whistleblowers as well as the summary Memo description of the conversation that he had is it to the speaker of the House of Representatives what I would say to her is I think she should be focusing on exactly what she is focusing on now which is whether there there was door for them to ask for all his phone calls with the President of China I I think they'd have to have more to do that you now have he is adding more fuel to the fire of those people who are thinking about removing from office so I think the strategy that he's adopted all over right do we do we accept the fact that the President says the Mattel the Chinese that the the issue is whether he engaged in misconduct whether he toss I mean not not everybody has to be Barbara Jordan but she certainly added a level of significance and sobriety and importance over the last three or four weeks has not worked for him to date and who knows it may it may work in the future do you think that could be seen as overreach athletically it's it's going to be a litigated I mean the issue the president is not going to remove president from office unless there's developed a consensus or a bipartisan recognition that he should be removed from office and I guess into the deliberations that the Judiciary Committee had during the Nixon era that I think was appropriate and only time with the Ukrainians that would be an appropriate article to include in the articles of impeachment but that one comment it's sort of an invitation to well you'd have to leave it to someone else to judge whether the president strategy is working it seems to me that every week and I I believe and I think I am I right in understanding that they are going to cited a couple but one is that when you go down the impeachment road there is very little that's going on in the public domain that is casting votes for the Democratic candidates for president don't you feel don't you worry a little bit about that that that in some ways we're seven and when you go down the impeachment road it is possible to have an impeachment in a divided country but it's I think impossible to in the second term of office one dynamic that's different in this one is we are entering there could be an impeachment trial at the exact same time people are it housed you worked for dealt with impeaching I I was pulling up some of the testimony that you and your colleagues gave to the Senate when it was the Bill Clinton trial and I found it interesting listen I don't think you I am not aware of evidence in connection with the Chinese to warrant that but there may be something I'm just not familiar with a lot of evidences come in was appropriate then and is appropriate now let's take a quick break and we'll be back with more of our conversation with Greg Greg Welcome back to the Investigation Greg Craig that your concern which is a legitimate concern and one that I think was was dominant and was responsible for this Lee Giuliani obviously was a US attorney southern district of New York esteemed career what what do you make of his role in this one other question obviously a character in this play for lack of a better term is is Rudy Giuliani and you third less than that I would draw from the experience twenty years ago was that it is a very solemn and important occasion that requires has been overcome as I said earlier by the by the equal concern that the misconduct that's at issue here has to do with the trial I mean the election itself once away or from then the voters are going to decide any way well I think that's one of the reasons that the speaker is being so expeditious speaker being so reluctant to go forward with an impeachment proceeding when she was receiving enormous pressure from inside the caucus to do that I think that concern Senate is already organizing and having discussions about having a trial in December three or four trial in December so it does seem to me and that just could not be ignored and so I think the speaker is is well advised to try to do this swiftly I think she has a challenge let me ask you one big difference of actually even from the Nixon era to the Clinton era both those impeachment inquiries and and the trial of Clinton when she and the House ultimately decided to hold hearings to educate the people the American people about what the issues are explained us is going to try to resolve this issue sometime with before the end of the year and it's my understanding that the leadership in the arraignments later this week Rudy is being investigated for a far violation. If you were counseling Rudy what would be your advice to him I scratch my head I you know it's it's difficult to to sort out obviously there was a an desired colleague of either the president or the first lady I was a a lawyer who practiced law happily in Washington. DC and I had hi this conduct is in fact worthy of impeachment why it is an abuse of power and that's a real challenge not only just to present the evidence of wrongdoing but twix explain why this conduct rises to the level of an impeachable offense it's one of the most serious things the House of Representatives can ever do but now I gotta ask you go to comment on that I do believe that it is a subject worthy of more investigation I understand is being investigated you on the pile and he said people are considering asking you to come over and so I would have you know I don't think I saw the president and the first lady a little to do with the White House in fact I was working in the State Department at the time John Podesta called me up and said we need another lawyer to throw problem solving relationship that Mr Giuliani appears to have with Mr Trump so he has right now is that there is a growing investigation as I'm sure you've read they arrived in Washington DC from Arkansas but once a year maybe at the Christmas party and that was all I had none I had none of that sort of okay no but I just wondered if if if it would delay a process I mean because he's going to be a witness isn't he a witness joining the insight team how did you conduct yourself with the Clintons there obviously friends but how do you make make sure at that point in time you never crossed the line and whether he was compensated how he was compensated and what kinds of relationships he had with the State Department with the White House with the Justice Department to be testifying in front of the house so that would go up to the courts likely it depends on what the basis for him to decline I mean if he asserted I just one thing that I would do would be to make sure not to give advice when I don't know exactly what all the issues are or southern district of New York earlier to Rudy some of the Ukrainians that he was working on for his independent investigation into the Biden's have been charged some they're going to go well I mean or the investigation going on with him affect the impeachment proceeding I mean in the sense of if if he got indicted what his jeopardy is or what the the evidence establishes so I'm reluctant in the world of the public domain each other they've been friends since one thousand nine hundred eight obviously now he serves the capacity as personal lawyer you know how did you prior to we're fight it right I think under most circumstances whether or not he's under investigation in the southern district Mr Giuliani is

president President Clinton White House Senate Chris Vlasto ABC News Washington House of Representatives Johnson Tucci Rudy State Department Mr Giuliani John Podesta Justice Department senior executive Gregg special counsel Mr Trump
After Taylor's Testimony, Is It Time for Public Hearings?

Impeachment: A Daily Podcast

22:36 min | 1 year ago

After Taylor's Testimony, Is It Time for Public Hearings?

"This is impeachment a daily podcast from WNYC. I'm Brian Lehrer. It's Wednesday October twenty third so we've been covering all this congressional testimony about the trump Ukraine scandal right drip drip drip a little career diplomat seeing this play out on his watch we knew about that text message that he had sent on what he saw and heard this summer Taylor has apparently been known for years as a meticulous note taker in his State Department work but here's just one it's crazy to withhold security assistance for help with the political campaign so drip drip drip now downpour it might have been a watershed day let's see was more like a geyser a burst pipe a waterfall the witness was trump's current ambassador to Ukraine William Taylor he's the Guy Secretary of state peyot handpicked to replace the previous Ambassador Marie Ivanovich because remember she wasn't pro investigations enough William Taylor testified yesterday timber ninth to to ambassador sunlen saying it's crazy to withhold security systems for help with where we are with Yahoo News Chief investigative correspondent Michael Isikoff who is also co author of the book on the Russia investigation called Russian Roulette Ed for illegally soliciting twenty twenty campaign help from a foreign government. You know these basics by now but if it's been drip drip drip yesterday something he said the businessman asks that person to pay up before signing the check but Taylor also texted at the time I A and his fifteen page opening statement was released to the Washington Post in a detailed day by day account ambassador Taylor described to get to the bottom of any corruption involving the Biden's and the Ukrainian energy company Barack Obama that Hunter Biden was on the board of and a theory but but Taylor fleshes it out with granularity and and the real anguish that he felt as residents Alinsky to name these investigations out loud in public pronouncement Taylor's fifteen page statement is online if you WanNa read the day by day log on basically acknowledged there was a quid pro quo I mean the the deal the you know the basic outlines of steel were clear I'm Michael thanks for coming on today great to be with you what was most significant about ambassador Taylor's testimony to you well just the civics that details the fleshing out of the sort of broad story that we've been covering for the last month or so blend the political appointee the ambassador to the European Union seems to take it on the Ukraine brief himself of campaign we now know how he got to that point the conversation he has with Sahlin the week before in which silence see that Ukraine not Russia hack the DNC's emails in two thousand sixteen and it was to help Hillary Clinton Donald Trump according to Taylor trump wanted so look when Mick Mulvaney made that extraordinary press conference last week those comments the presser in which he more so for now quote Ambassador Sunland tried to explain to me that president trump is a businessman when businessman is about to sign a trek to someone who told especially by trump's EU ambassador Gordon sunland that trump wanted Ukraine's presidents Alinsky to make a public statement of his determination I had told him that after talking to trump everything quote whatever quote everything was dependent on zone scheme making this announce wanted Zoecke to make this public announcement about investigations into the Biden's and two thousand sixteen meant including security assistance in order to get the security aide to fight Russian aggression trump Go to that testimony and I'm going to read you one paragraph and read everybody listening one paragraph from William Taylor's testimony as lose public testimony yesterday the written opening statement quote and Basler Sunland also told me that he now recognized that he had made a mistake investigations in fact ambassador Samland said everything was dependent on such an announcement including security against of trump insisting that's alinsky announce investigations in public. Well look if you had taken the text messages that had come out a public box by making a public statement about ordering such investigations and it and it so it goes on so what do you see as the it's not the security assistance right and a public announcement by Zelinski for a meeting is unsavory but it's by earlier telling the Ukraine officials to whom he spoke at a White House meeting with presidents Alinsky was dependent on a public announcement of east as his written opening statement yesterday this idea of wanting celeski quote in a public box he said this is again from Ambassador Taylor the assist assistance in other words not just a White House meeting also the military aid and other security assistance totalling about four hundred million dollars and then this goes on in the previous weeks you could have read them to say that the quid pro quo was really just about a meeting Edwin said the president trump wanted President Linski in a public box and that's Taylor quoting what he was told that trump wants quote not quite as serious as a hold up on the military aid the military aid that's money that's real that's so who has taken over for Fianna Hill as the Russia Ukraine desk officer in the NFC he's now emerging it's the morning where he recounts this remarkable conversation he has on September seventh with Tim Morrison National Security Council Officials Jeff Taylor said it's life and death the death of Ukrainian people because Russia will be more free to invade right so they're in the in in the past did you just read it's explicit it's not just the meeting it's the aid itself and then you go on just a few graphs later in Taylor's conversation or learning about a conversation that Sahlin had just had with trump and according to morrison trump told someone that he he's not seeking a quid pro quo but he was insisting that zone Linski go to a microphone and say he's opening investigations of bites tree has seen fit a head of state has seen fit to open an investigation into these things so you see American People Biden must be corrupt and the two thousand sixteen it has a looking like a pretty crucial witness he tells Taylor had a sinking feeling after listening in on yeah this has been Unfolding you know pretty much collapses with Taylor's testimony combined with these text messages quid pro quo defense which was which has been the White House Defense and the Republicans Defense at you know for the past and the two thousand sixteen election interference imagine Wenski should do it himself trump wanted to have it as a campaign talking point another line with the other testimony that's come in you know there's a conflict there by the way between Sunlen and did bureaucrat. He didn't say that about Taylor specifically but about this whole group State Department officials who've been testifying radical unelected bureaucrats and testify and clear up this very clear discrepancy And you know hopefully that will be in public and we need to like it's not that why at this point is all this still taking place behind closed doors this is testimony this is vital testimony but there is documentary evidence though which would be more than hearsay of Taylor's text messages to ambassador Sunland in the and and Taylor Silane had been insisting he never would have been a part of any quid pro quo that was his testimony last in these this closed door testimony for much longer they're going to have to make their public case and bring all these very important witnesses back before the be cameras to testify in public and I think that trump defense against Taylor is basically three things so far one it's just hearsay too actually WanNa take each of these briefly I hear say did Taylor personally detailer personally hear the president say these things about demanding in Russia story must have been a hoax something like that don't you think all right yeah so that's that's pretty clear so I think that the the no and put Taylor's testimony side by side with other witnesses most of them trump's appointees who also testified so I went back over accounts summer in which he stated in writing that he saw this as US military aid for help with trump's reelection and ambassador Sunland oh you build a case and let's also remember that Song Wind you know he was talking league it's now clear that he was so at this point one of the things that's GonNa have to happen is both silent and Taylor have to come back some of the other witnesses from the last two weeks and we have for example Fiona Hill who was trump's Russia and Ukraine advisor she testified that national security adviser we need these well in fact I thought it might be useful for our listeners following impeachment news at this point in the conversation to take a minute search John Bolton was furious about Rudy Giuliani's politically motivated chateau Ukraine operation. She's the one who said Bolton described Giuliani as quote a hand much collapsed at this point so the real issue is is this sufficient for impeachment and directly to the president now is he going to deny what Taylor says he told them maybe but you know that's why then there's Michael Mckinley Secretary of State Pompeo senior aid until two weeks ago he testified that he just resigned because of quote what appears to be a grenade who's going to blow everybody up so that's Fiona Hill Kurt Volker another trump Ukraine envoy testified that he and William Taylor and acting Ukraine and the Biden's and 2016 being investigated he's not he's hearing it from someone he's hearing it from Morrison uh-huh I if it's corroborated elsewhere and you know you have the contemporaneous text messages you have these other witnesses let's hear from Tim Morrison Book should be able to see it here it evaluate the credibility of these witnesses I think the Democrats are starting to realize they cannot you know maintain assistant secretary of State Phil Reeker shared with each other their concerns about Giuliani Volcker said quote. We're just very uncomfortable with him being active defense that I mentioned the Taylor and other recent witnesses or just quote radical unelected bureaucrats trump tweeted that yesterday as Taylor was starting to see the utilization of our ambassadors overseas to advance domestic political objectives unquote and Gordon Somboon himself trump's headmaster to Europe even Gordon Sawn testified that he came to realize there was an effort quote to involve Ukrainians directly or indirectly in the president the hearings are so far taking place in private as you just referenced and three the President Writes Taylor off in a tweet as a radical on elect sation that lobbied Obama to do more for Ukraine than Obama was doing and then he was brought back this year by Secretary of State Pompeo justify so let me take a minute for listeners again who aren't following this at the level of granular detail to share a little bit of William Taylor's bio he I mean he's serving on the National Security Council right now he was in the middle of this he was saying what he had been told about these conversations responses to him also in writing so what does that do to a defensive hearsay. Yeah I mean look I mean hearsay can be evidence was handpicked by pompeo presumably to go along with the trump agenda so what happens if they do hold public hearings and they compare that history of service people and I think that we need to see and hear that public case to break through but the the ASLI trump loyalist to replace ambassador your Yvonna Vich who was recalled because she wasn't pro investigations enough again Taylor with the president's or with Gordon somnolence if there's a discrepancy between their testimony in terms of witness credibility the the outlines of the case and the details of the case are pretty clear at this point we're going to get back to that private we're gonNA come country who was George Bush's ambassador to Ukraine as a radical I mean it just it's nonsense virtually you ambassador who by the way is not a career diplomat but a career hotel developer like trump who donated a million dollars to the trump campaign and then poof is a West Point Cadet he fought in Vietnam he started his civilian service in the federal government for President Reagan he was first appointed Ukraine and back to that private testimony versus the public testimony that everybody agrees needs to come in a minute but let's take another trump what he learned from these about these conversations so I mean that's you know crucial testimony this is this is this is I mean look to describe somebody like Bill Taylor we've that kind of background who served Republican and Democratic administrations who fought for his can't be based on hearsay so Michael why are these hearings being held in private well I think it's here are the public explanation obviously I mean it just it's hard to see how one can credibly sustain an argument like that now I mean credibility we need we don't want witnesses to coordinate their testimony were in the investigative phase right now this is standard and you know the idea that you're preventing witnesses from coordinating their testimony I don't think really holds up at this point when Utah and but just given the resume that you've just read I mean the idea that you can dismiss this kind of testimony is coming from politically motivated people just doesn't hold up all right let's get to the private testimony public testimony defense here's what Lindsey Graham it is important seeing and hearing witnesses you know that's what trials are for that's what you know public testimony in hearings are for arcus like that they're afraid that if they have when they get to public hearings it's GONNA turn into a political food fight demanded on Fox News last night in the context of saying these hearing so far away all I'm asking is give Donald Trump the same rights as Richard Nixon it's twenty twenty reelection campaign on quote and Michael I did there was cut and paste from the few news articles from the last few weeks but you see how it's all consists campaign finance hearings in the nineties you take the depositions and then a few days later you bring the witnesses in public to testify in Public Bill Clinton had when it comes to impeachment and I'm insisting that Donald trump be given the same rights every American has if you give a parking ticket to confront the witnesses against you acid or by President George W Bush he did that from two thousand six to two thousand nine he did not serve President Obama's my understanding but rather was part of an organ walk to Democrats in private what they're what they tell you is you remember that Lewandowski's hearing before judiciary you want another sir that's the way it used to be done that's the way it should be done here you know I I am a little bit at a loss and when you press Democrat it's in and it's also inevitable you cannot continue to do this behind closed doors I've covered congressional hearings for decades now you know this is here's one scenario wouldn't be called to do that at a Senate trial of the president if the house impeach him does the Senate process trial yeah it's certainly consistent like I said you know what I'm saying before the the the the defense of no quid pro quo I think has pretty doc Russian Roulette Michael thanks so much anytime listeners we want to hear from you to question witnesses Lindsey Graham has a point on this the Republicans do have a point on this it doesn't negate the incredibly significance of we've heard from chairman Schiff and there and then there's what I think are the real political reasons for it you know shifts has said look call us with your questions about the very not phony emoluments clause and how trump's businesses are related to impeachment which is part of what will be talking about are these witnesses transparency guy as reflected by his title Chief Investigative Reporter for Yahoo News Michael Isikoff also co author of the Ken Starr in public before the Judiciary Committee even in the Nixon days you know Nixon's lawyer had a chance had an opportunity to be in the room what's of the testimony that's going on but I am a transparency guy I want it in public I want everybody to see and hear they figured it out yet they know they've gotta do something in public but who's going to hold those public hearings is it going to be shift or is it going to be the judiciary committee when are they going that's why we're doing this yeah there is something to be said for that but given the fact that the testimony is leaking out anyway that's the way it worked in Clinton by the way you know there were public hearings in the Clinton impeachment David Kendall Clinton's lawyer got a chance to grill that will diminish the serious work they're trying to do I understand that but you know look democracy is messy me damning testimony every day toward conclusions of bribery extortion of Ukraine quid pro quos if you prefer that term and for why it's a fruity Giuliani arrested for and this is straight

Ambassador Taylor Hillary Clinton Donald Trump Ukraine Russia president Hunter Biden Barack Obama State Department William Taylor Taylor Silane Sahlin Sunlen Ambassador Sunland Brian Lehrer Russia Ukraine Michael Isikoff chateau Ukraine operation
Full Episode: Tuesday, July 21, 2020

World News Tonight with David Muir

20:00 min | 6 months ago

Full Episode: Tuesday, July 21, 2020

"Tonight Breaking News as we come on the air president trump speaking moments ago, his first coronavirus briefing since April saying the quote will probably unfortunately get worse before it gets better and what he said about social distancing and masks in this country, also making news alarming new report from the CDC tonight that the number of infections in the US, maybe ten times higher than official estimates, they studied ten cities and states in the US including New York and Florida tonight hospitalizations on the rise in forty states Florida running out of ICU beds. One nurse who said in her hospital there is just one ICU bed left teachers filing lawsuits to block schools reopening, and there's news tonight on the race for a vaccine. CEO's questioned on Capitol Hill today. When will a vaccine be available at what they said? Children and babies in this country, the disturbing news tonight about dozens of babies under the age of one infected with the virus in one county alone eighty-five babies testing positive since March, at least one of them dying. President trump was asked about the coronavirus tests he receives. He said on average one every day or every two days. He's asked amid lines for hours and many hotspots. Does he think there's a need for more federal help in getting faster? And faster results for Americans. Tonight so White House, defending its controversial decision to deploy federal officers to Portland Oregon officers in camouflage look leaders. They don't want them. Don't need them and that their presence is. Some of the protests at reports tonight, president trump is now threatening to send federal officers to Chicago. Also developing with the president said late today about a lead to Jeffrey Epstein, co-conspirator Glenn Maxwell, it made immediate news, the new doctor and the deadly attack at a federal judges family, the suspect dressed as a fedex delivery at allegedly killing her son, wounding her husband before taking his own life and tonight his possible link to another murder. The dangerous heat wave in the east, some places, higher temperatures, tomorrow, and the wildfire dangers and evacuations in the west tonight. And America's strong this evening something you saw right here and what many of you did afterwards? This is ABC. Tonight with David Muir. Bidding in. It's great to have you with us here on a very busy Tuesday night, and we begin tonight with the corona virus and the president just a short time ago it. His first coronavirus briefings since April, saying the pandemic quote will probably unfortunately get worse before it gets better, our GIANCARL, asking the president about the president getting tested daily the president saying every two. Two days or so and John asking whether there should be more money spent for testing for Americans still waiting for hours and blistering heat, and then waiting more than a week in some cases for results with the President says about that tonight, and seeing the new report from the CDC, revealing the number of infections. Here in the US is likely ten times higher than reported. Of course, the numbers that have been reported or already staggering than one hundred forty one thousand lives have been lost more than one thousand more lives in just the last twenty four hours fifty eight percent of them in the south more than three point, eight million confirmed cases, but that new estimate from the CDC could mean that. Tens of millions more Americans may have been infected many without even. Even knowing the study across ten cities and states and tonight in Florida, which remains the current epicenter more than nine thousand new cases. One hundred thirty six more deaths wonders telling US tonight. Her hospital has only one icu bed left Texas tonight. Also reporting more than nine thousand new cases, and in one Texas County alone eighty-five babies have tested positive since March and at least one infant has died. All of that driving the very real questions tonight about when and how schools should open congress today asking executives from top drug companies racing for a vaccine if they would send their own children back and what they said, and so we begin tonight. ABC's Victor Kendall from Florida. Tonight that alarming new report from the CDC. The number of covid nineteen infections in the first months of the pandemic estimated to be likely ten times higher than previously thought the study, looking at antibody tests in ten cities and states from March to May finding depending on the location. The case rate could be six to twenty four times more than initially reported. We're now in July with hospitalizations on the rise in forty states, the self looking like the northeast in April. Moments ago, he's first corona virus briefing since April president trump acknowledging the severity of the pandemic. It will probably unfortunately get worse before it gets better hospitals like Baptist health here in Miami or pushed to the brink. It's exhausting every day. Feel like we're in a race a marathon with just one ICU bed left nurse Rachel ever says it's wearing on the staff compared to March and April. What are we seeing now in the ICU? Oh! March was just the tip of the iceberg and. Every day it's coming into more patients and they're very sick. US cases rise the debate over reopening schools. Raging. The clock is ticking. Mindy Grimes fescue is one of dozens of educators appearance. Suing Governor Rhonda scientists who wants kids back in the classroom. The governor suggested that teachers who don't want to go back inside of a classroom could do something like take a sabbatical, could you? Other teachers afford to do something like that right now? Absolutely not I mean to make that statement. Just let us know that he is not in touch with what's happening. She and her husband or both teachers and their concern they could bring the virus home to their son who's immuno-compromised in a Congressional hearing today. From five pharmaceutical companies said they hoped Gab hundreds of millions of doses of affordable vaccine to be ready by next year. They were asked if they would send their kids back to school without one I. Honestly don't know the answer yet. Even from my three children were with the same challenges, parents cross country are trying to figure out brightness. To have you come to a conclusion? No, SIR, we're! We're talking about that tonight at dinner. I don't. Just if if you're confused, think about all across. America vice pence with a different message I can tell you with my wife seated right here if our kids were elementary school, age or high school or college, we wouldn't hesitate them back school. Because I've been looking at this data every day. The virus, continuing to take a deadly toll on frontline workers Fianna Tulip morning. Her mother Isabel Papa Demitrio, a respiratory therapist in Dallas writing this scathing obituary, blaming politicians and their lack of action for her death, writing like. And thousands of others she should still be alive today. Even inviting. Texas Governor Greg Abbott to her mother's funeral, saying his statewide mask mandate was too little too late. I invited him so that he can see behind these numbers. There were real people who are suffering. Jackson Alabama in Washington DC. This striking image the National Nurses Union, placing one hundred sixty four pairs of shoes on the lawn of the Capitol to mourn their fallen. Think about all those frontline workers victor with us now from testing site in Miami beach and Victor we heard on your report there the concern, obviously they continues about schools how the virus could affect children who could then bring it home to parents and grandparents? You've also got news tonight about summer camps. David. Camps in Miami are now closed after some campers and a counselor tested positive. That is just going to further complement. Complicate the debate over reopening schools David. Kendall off tonight, victor, thank you of course. Texas, also a hot spot and tonight. Alarming news I'm the youngest to be infected in fact in one, Texas County alone more than eighty-five babies under the age of one testing positive since March, and at least one baby has died ABC's Marcus more from Texas. A young mother tonight we're counting the moment. She learned her two month. Old Daughter is battling the virus that has swept the globe. I heard. I literally started casing and I couldn't breathe. Because I was so nervous last week Angelica windows, daughter giggles and smiles replaced by a cruel fever congestion rash. Everyone's like Oh kids don't get into someone you find out. It's Cohen. It's just like heartbreaking. Thankfully is improving and will be okay, but she was just one of an alarming number of children have apparently been infected. Infected across the country over the weekend, officials in new says County Texas revealed eighty five infants. There have tested positive for the virus since March sixty of those this month. Noah's county has the highest positivity rate in the state. Six Week. Old Baby died there in June. Cova one thousand nine symptoms are generally mild and children than adults, a recent study of Chinese children. Children showed ninety percent of children who tested positive, had mild to moderate symptoms or none at all, but that study also showed that ten percent of infants who tested positive, became very ill and younger children. Especially infants had more cases of severe illness. We have to keep in mind that newborns and infants have underdeveloped immune systems. That may be one of the reasons why. Why Cova can hit shakily in this group back in Arizona Little Evey is getting better. Her mom thinks she got the virus when her sister visited recently. Just be careful. Even if you don't take your be outside, just be careful who you let around them. 'cause you think even your family signed, but you may not know exactly what they're doing and it is really. Sad to watch your child sicker especially with this disease like no one really knows a whole lot of how. David doctors have told us that infants are more vulnerable than kids, and that's all the more important to practice social distancing measures. It's also true that infants require closer care making for a very difficult balance for doctors and parents David. Marcus thank you as we mentioned the president holding his first virus briefing and months just a short time ago, he stood at the podium alone without the doctors in view, and he was asked by our Giancarl. Where are they and the president telling Americans tonight when you're not able to socially distance, wear a mask whether you like the mask or not. He said they have an impact. Here's Mary Bruce. He's been downplaying the virus for weeks, so in the president today declared the situation will get worse before it gets better. It was a major about face with us the way it is, it's the way it's what we have. You look over the world. It's all over the world it comes in the president's political advisors warned he will likely lose in November unless he convinces voters. He's taking the virus seriously our latest. ABC News Washington Post Poll Shows Joe Biden now with fifteen point lead nationally and a twenty point edge when it comes to trust in handling this pandemic Biden today. Hitting trump hard is spread reported. By the President's staff that the president is. Not really working this anymore. He doesn't want to be distracted by it today. The president out prove that's not true. Stepping up his calls for Americans to wear a mask. We're asking everybody that. When you are not able to socially distance, wear a mask. Get a mask. whether you like the mask or not? They have an impact. They'll have an effect and we need everything we can get, but trump himself has been reluctant to wear one just last night at a fundraiser at his Washington hotel wearing no mask today the White House press secretary said that's because the president is tested multiple times a day are giancarl pressing the president. The press secretary said today that you sometimes take more than one test today. Is that how often I didn't know about what I do? Probably on average test every two days three days and I don't know of any time I've taken to one day, but I could see that happening so Republicans and Democrats. They WANNA see a more money for testing. They want to send billions of dollars to the state, so they can do more testing and you probably saw Mick Mulvaney the other day. said that his kids took a week to get test results back. He said this is simply inexcusable. Given where we in the pandemic. Do you think we have a problem with testing in this country right now? Are you in favour more money for testing? We've done more testing by far than anybody, but those numbers will be coming down. I agree I think it's a good thing that we can do. More money for testing if the if the doctors and the professionals feel. That Even though we're at a level that nobody ever dreamed possible that they would like to do more. I'm okay with it. Now notably absent from the briefing just now, any members of the president's Corona virus task. Force and when asked why not the president wouldn't offer an explanation. It comes as the White House has tried to discredit health officials like Dr Anthony Vouching who today said he simply was not invited David Mary Bruce Tonight Mary. Thank you. We're going to turn next to the tense standoff. In Portland Oregon new clashes tonight, protesters facing off against federal agents there despite the objections of the mayor and the governor now president trump is reportedly threatening to send federal officers to Chicago. ABC's Keno from Portland Tonight. Tonight reports that federal agents may soon deployed to Chicago Com. As Portland is facing, what could be its fifty fifth straight night protests? Overnight demonstrators trying to break into the federal courthouse. It's disappoint three o'clock in the morning here in Portland things are still going. There's so much tear gas in the era that my eyes are burning in a nightline interview. The Acting D H S deputy secretary, saying tonight. Those security agents in Portland are within their rights to protect the courthouse. This is a long established federal practice. It's well within the Authority federal government, but Oregon State is suing those federal agencies and. and Chicago's mayor says they don't want those security agents. Even if it's to help, police fight crime and gun violence. The trump administration's not going to foolishly deploy unnamed agents to the streets of Chicago fifty-three-year-old Navy veteran Chris David says he suffered a broken arm at the hands of law enforcement in the Portland protests and he was shocked by his treatment. I don't know who they are still i. don't even know what. They are from no names. No agencies nothing David the protests start out peacefully here every night, and then gradually turn into chaos. The mayor tells me that it's the presence and actions of federal law enforcement agents that have led to an increase in violence and vandalism. David Kina Whitworth reported deep into the night for us. Thank you. There is new reporting tonight in the deadly attack on the family of a federal judge. Authorities say the suspect was found dead and tonight. Is he connected to another murder? Here's Stephanie, rebels. Tonight authorities uncovering disturbing twists as they investigate the attack on New Jersey federal judge. Esther Solace as family that left her only son, debt and husband in the hospital. Law Enforcement sources revealing suspect Roy den Hollander is also being investigated in the killing of Mark Andulucia this month in California mark with an angel here on her, and he will be greatly missed. Sources say the gunman in Angela. Cheese killing was dressed similarly to den, hollander, wearing a Fedex uniform. When police say, he opened fire on Solace says twenty year old son, Daniel and husband Mark Andrew on Sunday a two thousand fifteen. Fifteen case in which den Hollander a lawyer and self-described anti-feminist represented. The plaintiff was presided over by judge. Saleh's before another lawyer took over in June. Twenty nineteen authorities seemed removing boxes from his New York City apartment sources say den. Dan Hollander killed himself in upstate New, York, on Monday. The names of dozen others were found in his car, including New York State. Chief Judge Janet fury to guns and cash were also found. Sources say North Brunswick mayor a solace family friend says the town is in shock. Every time I would ever speak with mark about Daniel. Marx is would light up. David sources tell ABC News Den Hollander had been diagnosed with cancer. Officials are now investigating whether these attacks were grudge. Killings committed by someone who knew they were dying David Stephanie Ramos with us again tonight. Thanks stuff. President trump was asked late today about Jeffrey Epstein's Alleged Co Conspirator Glenn Maxwell. She pleaded not guilty to sex trafficking charges last week. One of her alleged victims describing her as a Predator Monster, the president today saying he hasn't followed her case that they've met numerous times and that he wishes her well. If you'd like getting the story behind the story. Check out start here. The Daily News podcast from ABC News every morning. Start here. We'll get you ready for your day. With inciteful straightforward reporting on a few of the day's biggest headlines from round breaking investigative reports to urgent revelations, Shaping your world recently honored with prestigious. Murrow award start here takes you inside the stories that matter and where they're heading next, so start smart. We start. He'll check it out on apple podcasts or your favorite podcast, APP. Finally tonight here America strong it all started with a simple request from a son mom answered, and so did many of you. Tonight, the or the American servicemen and women you have not forgotten even in the middle of this pandemic. It was one year ago right here, you. I met this military mom Deborah House leading from malvern Pennsylvania. You might remember that simple request from her son serving in Afghanistan needed a pair of sneakers because his sneakers were starting to wear out speakers, he'd been issued or worn through. We said we gladly send him a pair of sneakers over. She had an idea got to work within a week. We had sneakers for soldiers formed. After our first report aired so many of you helping Deborah three hundred thousand dollars in donations in the first week, even schools helping Wyoming Valley, west Middle School, raising five thousand dollars and the smiles when those sneakers arrived Hi David Tonight Deborah with the new numbers since last July when you first aired our story in America Strong, we shipped over twenty six hundred pairs of sneakers to troops fully to combat sins and eminent danger. Now, shipping three hundred pairs of sneakers above to Iraq, Afghanistan Syria donations from all fifty states. David tonight here corporal. Ethan. You can't reveal his location or last name, but he tells us the need has been even greater this year because of the pandemic back home cove, nineteen restrictions has having a real hard time finding a new replacement pair of so appreciative to have. Hank you David. Specialists, Ryan Daniel Morgan to these niggers, Riva's motivation and morale. Secret facilities. In this from Master Sergeant. David back home. Things are green. Pandemic on just knowing that we're not forgotten while right here survey. Makes time. For the families back home like mom Sheena and her. Children Lauren. Gavin Colin at Eliza. Thank you. Eric Festival Solitaire. Thank you for sending only in his entire you misty years. We appreciate you remember while they're away from home until like her husband First Lieutenant Tony with us to a David Knowles boxes arrived. We open the mom talking about adult soldiers, men and women's smiling like Christmas and this evening one more gift for Tony a message from his family home.

president Chris David ABC America Portland trump Texas Chicago US Giancarl Ryan Daniel Morgan David Muir CDC Mary Bruce Florida David Stephanie Ramos Oregon Texas County Jeffrey Epstein Victor Kendall
Vindman was on the controversial call - now he's testifying

CNN's The Daily DC

22:15 min | 1 year ago

Vindman was on the controversial call - now he's testifying

"Finding the right pros for home projects can be tough and spark a lot of questions like how do I find a pro who help will they do a good job will I get a fair price that's where homeadvisor can help from leaky faucets to major remodels homeadvisor connects you to the right pro for the job in seconds and even helps you get a fair price read review crane that was harmful to US government policy and undermining US government policy and that during the phone call the president picked hey everyone I'm David Chalian the CNN political director this is the daily DC impeachment that he was so concerned by what he heard on that call that he reported it to his bosses and to a lawyer watch a podcast dedicated to up to the minute reporting and analysis each weekday night of this historic and fast moving impeachment inquiry in a few minutes he said that quote outside influencers thinking of Giuliani here were pushing a false narrative about you pointed his exact identity or his role before this inquiry so he was on the call and he told lawmakers earlier today fascinating backstory we'll get to in a moment but Marshall tell us what we know about what he is telling investigators today it's it's incredible it really is horten developments all of a sudden we learned today that the witness up on Capitol Hill who I just WanNa say is the firm up on some of those false narratives about the ambassador that was ousted about Burris Ma and the Biden's things like that so then it's is literally his job to help steer US policy official government policy regarding Ukraine that's literally this guy's job like he what is going there are these there are these I'm I'm part of the chain of command we set the policy we coordinate with state we coordinate with the Pentagon we're talking to the White House Etcetera Etcetera and I witness on two fronts one currently still working in the White House that's right to on the July twenty fifth phone call even more important right so so those two things are I is what we have in I think his rank as lieutenant colonel of Inman who is up on the hill and producer Marshall Cohen who is one of our lead reporters on this impeachment inquiry Marshall Thank you so much for coming back to the podcast could be here so Marshall He is the expert on the National Security Council dealing with Ukraine portfolio that's correct yeah and he's sitting there saying hold on a minute what and and Zach totally right you know Alexander of Indian is not a household name and very few people in Washington probably could it's we'll be talking with Ross Garber C. N. N. legal analyst who has extensive experience litigating impeachment charges but I I'm joined by my colleague CNN reporter well obviously in fact on yesterday's Podcast Zach Wolf was here and he's like talking about you never know when some of these bit players are going to come out and be big huge occurrence of a red flag or an alarm bell going off for the expert on the NFC it's also this July tenth meeting that we've been hearing about is that not the case Giuliani and his now indicted associates Parnasse and from you know there there's stirring up some stuff and that was ringing the alarm old Colonel Edmon the other thing that I thought is particularly interesting may be particularly important here is that the July twenty fifth phone call was not the first the new Ukrainian President Vladimir Zilenski his top national security advisor comes to Washington to get to know the people in the says it was perfect call Democrats say it was almost a treasonous call right it's so much bigger than the call so this meeting July tenth you're totally right and it's it's frankly you know I I think they're adding some meat on the bones here you know this whole impeachment increase started with the call the call trump White House and to try to secure a date for the face to face the first face-to-face meeting between trump alinsky and according to Vince testimony during that meeting the US Ambassador to the European Union Gordon Sunland a trump appointee brought up the need that Ukraine would need to deliver specific investigations I if they wanted to secure that meeting at the White House basically call the lawyer do we know what his concerns were about what can you say that he heard on that we do and I'll give you a quote here from the testimony no in most senses no the whistle blower is not that important literally I guess Donald Trump and those investigations sunland later told Vin men and others were talking about Berea when you say later you mean that day correct daily account here under oath of from somebody who was on the call and part of the lead up to that call I mean objectively I would say a day debrief meeting that went on after the meeting yeah so once the Ukrainian guy was out right they all huddled the Americans huddled and said okay basically what the Hell's going please investigate and Democrats on the hill are investigating it just seems that whole that whole talking point from the White House about the question I have for you the president keep saying where is the whistle blower whereas the whistle blower is the whistle blower pertinent anymore to this because now we have a an on the record what the hell was that and and silent says well you know we're talking about Biden's Burris MMA and getting to the bottom of the twenty sixteen election and would have been do when he heard that he went the idea of the definition of a whistle blower is somebody who sees something wrong and raises the red flag they plant a flag in the sand and say perhaps the president himself which I'll get to in a moment question VIN means credentials here I'll read the president's tweet here suppose lawyer so he's gone to the lawyer he went to the lawyer after that July tenth incident he went to a lawyer again after the July twenty fifth phone call and he expressed concerns so here's of this because we have heard even from CNN's own contributor Sean Duffy former Republican congressman this morning we've heard some Republicans some Fox News host others really according to the corrupt media the Ukraine call quote concerned unquote today's never-trumper witness he calls this guy never trumper I don't know how the Donald Trump Sean Duffy Fox talking points I want you to hear congresswoman Liz Cheney this morning and talking to the press after a House Republican conference president knows anything about vitamins politics was he on the same call that I was can't be possible please ask him to read the transcript of the call which came to the United States at the age of three maybe with his twin brother and his family to get out of Ukraine obviously a lieutenant colonel so Duffy went on to sort of question of women's loyalties because he was born in an area of the Soviet Union that is now Ukraine and purple heart recipient this is this is somebody who is nothing short of a Patriot in American hero which by the way I don't want people to think all Republicans are on the not a firsthand account is clearly out the window now that's over and so I I do want to be before we take a break do you want to sort of delve into the political fallout of the remember to create an ad like this one I think that we need to show that we are better than that as a nation their their patriotism their love of country we're talking about decorated veterans who have served this nation Republicans take that rare step of rebuking Donald Trump They often do it in very you know shrouded language that meeting now I also want to say a word about something else that's been going on over the course of the last several hours and last night which I think is also shameful and that is questioning out with new book trailblazer and tells me capitalism as we know it is dead he thinks billionaires like himself could pay much higher taxes and welcome back to the daily DC impeachment warns about the cost of growing inequality plus his argument for breaking a big tax his personal journey the impact his father and his Yeah I mean that's a strong term shameful look I think any fair person would agree that it is pretty shameful and and there's a visit pure winning dot com slash CNN hi everyone poppy harlow here on this week's episode of boss files salesforce founder and CEO Mark Benny on he but their lives on the line and it is shameful to question their patriotism their love of this nation and we should not be involved in that process that's one of the president trump's top allies in Congress my first question to you the impeachment expert who has gone through this process multiple occasions what you have read about the vitamin really taken aback by the fact that she mentioned Colonel Vin by name you know so often in recent years when you do see President to to what America is about it was a it was comforting actually hear Liz Cheney a high ranking Republican Congress the patriotism questioning the dedication to country of people like Mr von men Lieutenant Colonel Ben men who will becoming today and others who have testified all of the facts what I am surprised about what I'm shocked about is that there's no sort of coherent strategy for defense I don't I watch this stuff very brush that back a bit okay Marshall Stay right there we're going to be joined by C. N. N. legal analyst and Peach Mint expert Ross garber right after this quick break testimony did president trump's case become more difficult today or less difficult today so I'd say less differ which I'm David Chalian Marshall Cohen is still with me and we're pleased to welcome CNN legal analyst Ross garber thank you so much for being back on the podcast Ross it's good to be here so if that's the defense we don't see a lot of people actually saying that and explaining it the president does well other other than the president but we we don't yeah he seems to say that we grandfather had on him and the value of vulnerable it's a fascinating conversation I hope you'll check it out you can subscribe the boss files today I'm seeing something wrong well in this case I don't know that this person saw something wrong as much as heard from other people I saw I haven't I've learned things that are that I think are wrong on the facts day in and day out from the administration I I am I am not surprised that there's not a sort of day to day defense of all sort of just put their finger on the issue for like a half second then take it away and but this was a very direct condemnation of exactly what we've seen in the last twenty four actually not always on foreign policy I understand but but a top ally who's calling his behavior and some of his compatriots behavior shameful what do you make of this Chaney had to say well I'm th there's a xenophobic element to labeling somebody that was born in the Soviet Union at three years old came to America careful you guys do too I don't know what the White House is defense is is that what the president did was entirely appropriate because if he and I think we're GONNA see some meat on those bones in over the next few weeks and months but but yeah I I it's not a good day when when that kind of thing call in advance to warn them against doing so yeah I wonder that's a very good question what how do you think how would you put on a defense you don't see as a lot of others saying that so is that going to be the defense because if that's going to be the defense you're going to need to hear it from more than just the president so Marshall maybe but one of the big issues with that kind of defense is it probably comes best out of the mouth of a participant in it ver- you know did you ever tell the president this that and the other like why did you go and you know go to your boss and you didn't have the courage to warn Donald Trump that what they saw you doing was so alarming that they had to alert their superiors and the and the lawyers I it's not a good day now that doesn't necessarily make it it probably comes best out of you know the White House Chief of staff for example who is involved in this stuff and we're to say you know there are lots of people in Nick is it would force somebody like the White House chief of staff somebody close to the president to actually go and testify about you can do some of it on cross exam and The president may say I had a lot of people around me I had a lot of people sort of listening to these conversations I had lawyers and defense that's almost kind of the the Mick Mulvaney get over it defense is you know all right whatever this happens and we need to get over it and it's not impeachable or is it something else which I think we may start to see hints of which is look these things happen for sure but it comes best on direct exam so that begs the question about process and so we now know Ross that Nancy Pelosi happens you mentioned a lack of defense that's interesting to me I D- Are you surprised by they're not being a more forceful rigorous defense solved nobody told the president that this was improper because we didn't think it was improper somebody like that but what that would do in the reason it's very problematic but yeah it's not a good day when somebody who works in your White House goes across town testifies at the Capitol One told me that this was so bad and you know I'm trying to implement US policy it's up to the president to do diplomacy I'm as may be having this strange dual loyalty it it's it's definitely a inappropriate it is shameful it's more than inappropriate and it is so offensive did it and she can't impeach the president the president might say for doing something that you disagree with wow let me that begs who had knowledge that he was going to bring up the Biden's on the he is sort of trying to get rid of the Republican talking point about process here and is going to hold the vote or vote I should say that Chevy trump defense and the sort of efforts at at defense we've seen really haven't gone so well including the the one criticizing them today diplomacy the best I can and nobody told me that this was wrong and I in fact I had a lot of people around whose job it is to tell me if something is wrong and nobody I say more difficult but I- I caution everybody to sorta wait to see how it plays out because one of the things we haven't seen yet curiously enough is it it's like that of the president would would you try to cross examine you know with with the Senate Republicans say you know Fiona Hill did you ever ores of defense all right look this stuff happened it was not perfect but it was not impeachable that is a that sort of a different I think that is going to be the model that is going to be the benchmark the model was essentially the same in Nixon and Clinton where the the Republicans will try to hang around the neck of moderate Democrats say they're voting for impeachment even though it's not the articles of impeachment this is the closest thing they're going to get to formalized lukens did the the issue is what's going to be used as a basis for making an impeachment decision I think the Republicans would probably have a pretty legitimate in part of the process is going to happen at the Judiciary Committee or in the committees that are currently taking evidence so I'm talking about wherever that open part happens sets forth how this impeachment inquiry will play out procedurally going forward it also is clearly going to be just from a political point of view the vote that impeach what do you mean in that house judiciary proceeding do mean in this House intelligence or are we talking about down the road in a potential Senate trial numbers on whether to impeach or not you mentioned the the open part of this process let me ask you about the closed part of this process because that's definitely the talking House Judiciary Committee about everything he found David Kendall the president's lawyer then got some rebuttal time to that is that a model that we're gonNA see here so point from Republicans this past couple of weeks is why are you doing this in secret you're hiding it from the American people to total sham so giving all of your expertise president's lawyers were allowed to cross examine witnesses in Clinton we saw that Kendall got to cross examine star but complained about the limited amount of time DC impeachment watch and thanks to our listeners. We've got a new podcast every weeknight so please make sure to subscribe on Apple podcasts stitcher Google podcasts when you have democratic house impeachment managers as the prosecutors in this case allowing the president's team to then come in and make their case they're if for so for sure how does everything that we've done that we've seen so far stack up on the transparency scale is marshall I'd be making the same arguments as the report it's going to happen at the Senate trial now I'm talking about now at the house phase we don't yet know as we're sitting here today recordings podcast whether the open the witnesses and are they gonna get present evidence themselves and when you say that do you mean in let's say this is GonNa play out in

president US CNN David Chalian Senate Google political director twenty fifth three years
Full Episode: Monday, September 28, 2020

World News Tonight with David Muir

20:04 min | 3 months ago

Full Episode: Monday, September 28, 2020

"Tonight the fallout, the bombshell report about President Trump's taxes. New. York Times reporting the your president trump won the White House he paid just seven hundred fifty dollars in federal income taxes the same year after and in eleven out of eighteen years they studied he reportedly paid no federal income taxes at all tonight. The Times reporting the president also appears to be hundreds of millions of dollars in debt. Tonight who does he owe that money to help president trump is now responding and the Biden camp responding tonight to showing how much the average American worker pays taxes every year. All of this was the first presidential debate showdown twenty, four hours away president trump and Jill Biden face to face in this pandemic, there will be no handshake, no opening statements Biden in debate prep tonight and what he says he expects from the President Tomorrow night at the president on how he's preparing. New Emergency unfolding tonight evacuations in northern. California at this hour the massive fire quadrupling in size tens of thousands four stout, a senior home evacuated hospital transferring patients. The Corona virus in the US now on the rise in thirty three states in Puerto Rico New York state reporting its highest infection rate since June. President trump this afternoon saying we are rounding the Corner, Dr Anthony Fauci telling ABC News today we are not in a good place and the key number. We did not mean as we headed to fall new video surfacing tonight in the Briana Taylor case Vice News. Saying it has obtained body camera footage from moments after the shooting tonight, the officer charged with wanton endangerment for bullets shot into a neighboring apartment pleading not guilty today here. New Questions about the ballistic support. The dramatic images this evening police take down of president trump's former campaign manager. Bradford scall- with authorities say barricaded himself in his home with multiple guns, police reporting his wife had bruises. Tonight involving hall of Fame Football, Star Joe Montana and his wife stopping alleged kidnapping inside their own home at America strong. Tonight what you did after all report right here. From ABC. News world. Headquarters in your. Case is World News. Tonight. With David. Video Begin. It's great to start another week with all of you at home and we begin tonight with that bombshell report on President trump at his taxes the election just thirty six days away now, and this is the most extensive reporting yet on the matter reporters at the New York Times revealing, they have examined eighteen years of president trump's taxes eleven of those years they report president trump paid no federal income taxes at all and the year he won the White House they say he paid seven hundred fifty dollars in federal income taxes the same the following year. That's about the same amount of American worker earning twenty thousand dollars a year pace federal income taxes seven hundred, fifty dollars. The Times points of those eleven years in which trump paid no federal income taxes at all and the Times also reporting that the president is hundreds of millions of dollars in debt more than four, hundred, twenty, million, they say in debt that could come do over the next four years if he's elected leading new questions, who is that money Oh to? Of course, all of this just twenty four hours before the first face to face debate between president trump and Joe Biden here's our chief White House correspondent Jonathan Karl leading off tonight. On the eve of the first presidential debate, the American public is getting what's been described as the first detailed look at one of Donald Trump's most closely guarded secrets, his tax returns in its Blockbuster Report The New York Times reviewed detailed information on nearly two decades. Worth of trump tax returns. The details are startling trump paid no federal income taxes at all in eleven of the eighteen years they review. Twenty sixteen the year he won the White House trump reportedly paid only seven hundred and fifty dollars for a first year in office. He again paid just seven hundred, fifty dollars seven hundred fifty dollars is roughly the federal income tax bill of someone who makes twenty thousand dollars a year at the White House the President insisted the Times report was not accurate well, first of all, I paid a lot a lot of state income taxes too but state and federal income taxes are two different things the president built his brand and his campaign on being a business genius with the MIDAS touch have great business sense I made a lot of money and I had great success. So I've had great success by the way really successful but the Times reports the trump businesses including his golf courses and resorts are actually awash in red ink. His Washington hotel reportedly lost fifty five point five, million dollars since it opened for years ago his foreign ventures according to the Times are among the few that have actually made money since he became president more than seventy, three, million dollars some of the most profitable countries with authoritarian leaders including the Philippines and Turkey when trump ran for president the first time he insisted he was loaded with money and had almost no debt whatsoever anybody I don't need that very interesting. I'm so liquid I don't need that and if I need but the Times reports the president is actually drowning in debt including more than four hundred, twenty, one, million dollars that could come do over the next four years the paper noting that if trump is reelected quote, his lenders could be placed in the unprecedented position of wing whether to foreclose on a sitting president today the president tweeted he has very little debt compared to the value of assets. He has repeatedly said his tax returns are under IRS audit it's. They've been underwater for a long time. The IRS does not treat me. Well, the newspaper reports the IRS is in fact investigating a seventy two point nine, million dollar tax refund the president received in two, thousand ten and whether he took improper deductions, the times found trump took tax deductions for money spent on his lavish lifestyle including seventy thousand dollars on hairdressers during his time on the apprentice and more than ninety five, thousand dollars for vodka trump's makeup artist. The President says he is entitled like everyone else to depreciation and tax credits. Refused to turn over his tax returns but he's also bragged about his ability to avoid paying taxes. The only years that anybody's ever seen where a couple of years when he had to turn them over to state authorities when he was trying to get a casino license and they showed he didn't pay any federal income tax so. Eight zero that means zero for troops. The Biden campaign points out that most voters do pay taxes releasing an ad today highlighting working class people who have paid more federal income tax than the self described. In the White, house. All right. So let's get to Giancarlo with us live in. Cleveland the site of the debate tonight in John will press the president on his taxes through the years of four years ago I asked Vin candidate Donald trump a when he would release them. He said what he said to so many reporters after the audit but also told they went back to the transcript. He said, you know I tell you it's not a big deal. I asked you don't think voters will care. He said I don't think so I think people don't care and John. I'm curious to four years later that remains the central question. Wilson. Undecided voters care now with this new reporting. We'll David. The Biden campaign has unveiled a tax calculator today were you can compare how much you pay taxes with how much donald trump paid, and you can be sure. Biden. is going to make this a central issue that he hits in the debate tomorrow night. They believe that this is a issue that really hits home an issue of fundamental fairness. Here the rain there behind you in Cleveland that debate tomorrow night as I mentioned off the top Giancarl. Thank you will see tomorrow night as well that high stakes presidential debate it's the first one of course, president trump Joe Biden face to face just twenty four hours away. It will take place on that stage right there Cleveland Ohio know handshake because of covid no opening statements Biden has been doing debate prep in what he says he expects on that stage from President trump and what the president says about preparing for the debate as well. Here's Terry Moran Tonight. It will be a presidential debate unlike any in modern history president trump and Joe Biden on the same stage for the first time no handshake no opening statements and Biden is prepared for the gloves to come off right out of the gate. He's GonNa WanNa make it personal. He's GonNa WanNa get in the mosh pit. I'M GONNA talk about why I want to be president united. States? He has taken time off the trail to prepare but the president campaigning hard nine events in the last week how you save spent. Time not a lot. Country I don't I don't have the luxury. The first question will go to president trump who's using his third Supreme Court pick to fire up his base formerly. Nominating Judge Amy Coney Barrett to fill justice RUTH BADER GINSBURG seat. This weekend, she is a woman of unparalleled achievement. Towering intellect sterling credentials and unyielding loyalty to the Constitution, and Biden is making the case that healthcare and guaranteed covered for preexisting conditions for millions of Americans is at stake with the court set to take up the fate of the affordable care act just one week after the election. The clear focus is this is about your healthcare. This is about whether or not the will exist. This is about whether or not preexisting conditions will be continue to be covered. He's heading ended tomorrow with a ten point lead in national polls of the president, and he'll be in his element with twenty-six vice presidential and presidential primary debates on his belt. But this time he'll be head to head with the president who acknowledges he began prepping weeks ago. Here's what Biden said about that to David the president said he's already prepping for the debates. Are you all my? Hardly. Wait explain trump. I'm prepping and in these final hours before the debate Biden says going up against Donald Trump is a whole other ballgame. What are you GonNa Win Just, tell the truth. Let's get the Terry Moran Tonight Terry Tomorrow Night's debate. You've got this new reporting the president's taxes of course, corona virus here in the US Supreme Court. plenty plenty for our colleague Chris Wallace over at Fox News to get you tomorrow night. It should David a media debate on paper but let's see those topics. That Chris Wallace have chosen six topics, fifteen minutes, each the trump and biden records, the Supreme Court, the corona virus pandemic, the economy race, and violence in our cities and the integrity of our elections. But I think voters are also going to get a good look at both men under pressure at length really for the first time David thirty six days to go Terry Moran. Thank you. Of course again that crucial I debate tomorrow night ABC News with a special edition of two. Thousand. Twenty starts at eight PM Eastern followed by debate right here at nine. In the meantime, we're GONNA turn to the emergency unfolding in the West this hour massive fire quadrupling in size north of San Francisco racing across Napa Valley families forced from their homes just incredible pictures coming in so many homes already destroyed new evacuation orders just this afternoon tens of thousands forced to flee. So many wineries also threatened tonight, this bed and breakfast burned right to the ground. A senior home has evacuated tonight, a hospital rushing to transfer patients in ABC's Kenneth Whitworth from California tonight. Tonight homes engulfed and more families told to get out as multiple out of control wildfires, rage north of San Francisco the fires more than quadrupling in size in just twelve hours. Let's glass fire sparks to other fires nearby. So as you can see here, Napa Valley, we are essentially surrounded by flames. Sirens blaring families racing to evacuate. We left with nothing I mean just literally. With nothing. So lucky to be alive in Santa Rosa City buses lining up to take more than one hundred senior home residents out of harm's way some still in their pajamas. Saint Helena's hospital forced to evacuate for a second time in a month were very thankful that the hospital least right now is still standing in tonight images of the burned out neighborhoods that firefighters couldn't save. David firefighters are dealing with extremely erratic fire behavior and high winds. You can see how the smoke is really just starting to swirling you care the trees popping and winds are expected to die down but the red flag warnings will remain in effect and in fact, extend South into Los Angeles through tomorrow. Davis Kina worth the unbelievable seen in Califor- tonight nightcap. Thank you. We move on this Monday to the coronavirus here in the US cases rising across much of this country Dr Anthony Fauci, telling ABC News. Today, we are not in a good place cases increasing in thirty three states and Puerto Rico more than seven million confirmed cases so far nearly two, hundred, five, thousand lives lost. Here, in the US and in Florida tonight, the images coming in the bars and restaurants crowded immediately after limits were lifted in that state president trump this afternoon saying we are rounding the corner doctor has said we need to be a ten thousand cases a day as we head into the fall flu season to tackle this pandemic but we are far from that. Here's ABC's Victor Oquendo. In Florida crowds, Oregon, pecking restaurants, and bars after the governor gave the green light to fully reopened. It honestly looks like it's business as usual. It looks like how it was free Cova Derek after I reopening in May Florida became the epicenter of the virus so far losing more than fourteen thousand lives cases are not rising in thirty three states and Puerto Rico. Dr Anthony. FAUCI. Telling GM. He's concerned about the level of infection when not in a good place with regards to what I had said back then because as we get into the fall in the winter, you really want the level of community spread to be as low as you possibly get it and I hope not but we very well might start seeing increases in. New York sounding the alarm after topping more than a thousand cases for the first time since June it comes as thousands more students go back to New York, city classrooms, and limited indoor dining reopens today president trump announcing one hundred, fifty, million rapid tests are on their way to the states the vice president today with this blunt warning the American people. Should anticipate that that cases will rise in the days ahead but moments later the president once again cleaning, we are rounding the corner on the virus rounding the corner. And Very importantly vaccines are coming, but we're rounding the corner regardless, but vaccines are coming in they're coming fast nearly two hundred and five thousand Americans have lost their lives to covid nineteen just weeks after teacher Dmitry bannister passed away at twenty eight years old the virus claiming her mother's life fifty, seven year old Shirley a nursing teacher who learned she had covid the day she lost her daughter what has this been like for your family losing both your aunt. In your cousin. On leaves a war within each and every one of us I think. Sometimes we think that they went somewhere. You know they'll be bad but then nowadays sink in. We realize that their destination has turned. US for those rapid tests promised by the White House. They are just five dollars a piece with results in fifteen minutes. The hope is that they will help reopen schools. David. Kendall Tonight Victor Thank you next to the dramatic images from Fort Lauderdale top campaign advisor to President Trump Brad. Parcel taken down by police after he barricaded himself in his home his wife calling nine one one to say he was armed tonight here will police now say they discover here's Rachel Scott Tonight alarming, Bodycam video showing senior campaign adviser, and former campaign manager Brad Parts Cal tackled, and taken down by Florida police. Anything his wife racing out of their home in calling nine one one. Away, and then I heard I've also telling police scale was intoxicated and armed. Office great. Better. Can scale telling officers husband had suicidal thoughts over the past few weeks police swearing the neighborhood negotiating with him to surrender. Okay. All right. Can you do favor and you walk out with? No Workman's. It's a dramatic fall for the former campaign manager who spoke to Lesley Stahl from sixty minutes about being a newcomer and helping trump win in two thousand sixteen. Your wife has a wonderful expression about. You being thrown into this She said that I was thrown into the super. Bowl, never played a game in one in two, thousand, eighteen. He was put in charge of the president's reelection campaign but he was demoted after disappointing turnout out of Tulsa, rally in June and questions about misspending millions leaving the campaign strapped for cash tonight scale hospitalized undergoing a medical evaluation. The police reports saying his wife had several bruises on her arms and scratches on her cheek and forehead one officer saying she accused her husband of previously hitting her. Tonight a campaign official telling us their thoughts with Brad Pascale and his family as they wait for the facts to emerge David. Reporting Tonight Rachel thank you. News in the Briana Taylor case tonight former officer bread Hankinson. Pleading not guilty to want and endangerment for allegedly firing into a neighboring apartment vice news obtaining body camera from the moments after the shooting saying the video shows police yelling commands at Taylor's boyfriend Kenneth Walker as he's arrested Kentucky State Police Ballistic Report provided ABC News is now raising new questions about who fired the shot that injured an officer that night. Now, the alleged kidnapping attempt of NFL Legend Joe Montana's Grandchild Malibu authorities say Saad side dolls well tried to kidnap the nine month old Joe Montana's wife Jennifer reportedly wrestling the baby out of the suspects, arms, Joe Montana, than waiting down nearby deputies the suspect under arrest. Finally tonight here, America strong the children who needed desks and viewers to the rescue. It was last week here the Dads, the volunteers refurbishing painting desks across this country. David in Columbus. Ohio John. Wooden with don profit impact community action because so we received additional death was would be distributed to more than eighty pounds twenty donated desks. By your old, Nina? Total. Lavera. In kindergarten with her new desk. Happy Place to do my school. Don Year old Jimmy Kausar in the fourth grade. In Gaithersburg Maryland a group Desk Spy Dad's. But do number tonight co just parilla's David coming on your show we actually received a five thousand dollar donation from Lowe's which was tremendous. We were able to buy enough would for a hundred more desks. And he'd center Fania. Mexico David Gunter and the community project after all report I. Can't tell you how wild things been since that segment I air volunteers across America all for Students Julian and Marcos. Arianna thank you, Bob Joanne grateful without these desks. Made Press. I don't think we could've made all the fun learning possible and manageable. Let's keep this going. It's your matters on David Muir. I'll see you right back here. Tomorrow.

president Donald Trump Jill Biden David ABC News President Trump Brad the Times White House US ABC officer Terry Moran Dr Anthony Fauci California Cleveland vice president
9/12/18: No One is Above The Law

Powerhouse Politics

47:16 min | 2 years ago

9/12/18: No One is Above The Law

"Bogota powerhouse politics. I'm ABC news, chief White House correspondent Jonathan Karl and maybe seen this political Rick Klein up here, New Hampshire covering the end of primary season. Wait. I was wondering where you were Rick. You're in New Hampshire. Yeah, you're not. You're not explorer run for president or, you know, I'll be asking my denials, but but maybe alone in that there's there's a lot of rumblings up here. All ready. Twenty twenty is now twenty twenty is now the. Do you think there'd be a couple of Democrats that are going to be up there. Just did a giant Alenia belief is in the state, even this week, all ready one. There's more there's more to come. And yeah, this is the the ride has has already begun for for what's going to be a wild year. We have a very big show a head, and we have a conversation coming up with Ken Starr who is out with a new book on his experience as the independent counsel during the Monica Lewinsky and whitewater debacles. He's got some very harsh things to say about the the, the folks that he used to investigate. And I think he may have some interesting comments about the current president and Rick. We've got a hurricane bearing down on the east coast, so I don't know which is going to hit first, but I'll tell you it always feels like there's a storm here in Washington strikes me John under normal circumstances under any previous presidents. This would be a time where politics would very much take a back seat and we wouldn't be talking about politics. The president has canceled a couple of rallies this week and obviously congressional. Action could be retained by preparations for the storm, which. The Carolina. These are not times and and I believe it was the president himself who kind of underlined that point by talking about how big and severe the storm would be. But again, bragging about the response to Puerto Rico just yesterday yet. It's not just that. I mean, you have the president on on September eleventh literally on his way to Shanksville to commemorate the seventeenth aniversary of the attacks wall preparing for this storm tweeting a series of attacks on his own Justice department was really quick story. But let's let's listen to some of what the president had to say about the experience in Puerto Rico. The Puerto Rico was incredible, Unstrung success, Texas. We have been given a pluses for Florida. We've been given a pluses for, I think at a certain way, the best job we did was Puerto Rico, but. Nobody would understand that. I mean, that's harder to stand raises a couple of questions for me, Rick. First of all, who gives these grades, it's and the second thing is the scorecard. Yeah. And if you have an a plus and then something is better than a plus, what is that? Is that like an a plus plus or what is that Wade, Wade, it averages, you know, you could get you could get one hundred. Five. I think it's a degree of difficulty is what he's what he is what he's grading on. But I mean, this reignites the feud was Puerto Rican officials, of course, who are quick to point out with death whole nearly three thousand and with people on the island still don't have power. Now you're later it's very, very hard to make the case that this was a success from people that are actually on the ground is still dealing with the consequences of it. So the president's right, no one is singing about success. I think except for the president and fits with what he does with the supreme lives and the the reassurances and the the we, we've got this thing and he, he needs to take the trophy of for himself psychologically. But it. Doesn't fit with the facts and leaves us. Do you think he believes or is this just the many breath? Everything's the best. Everything's the greatest, but does he actually because it actually matters you learn if you see mistakes that were made you learn from stakes, right? I think the point has been made to him by people around him that that Puerto Rico was a uniquely difficult situation because it is an island because it had an aging, outdated infrastructure tone on the front. End hundred pound. Yeah. And they also will have some. They'll find flaws in the methodology of the of the recent official estimate that puts the death toll at close to three thousand that it's over a longer period of time in people. Otherwise, sick who happened to pass away, you can say it's because they because they didn't have asked the medical services or power. I don't know how though I don't. I can't imagine that there are actual federal officials who telling President Trump we did. We did that. That's a success story what happened for real success. But as you point out, whatever the challenges you have to be able to learn from what didn't go. Right. And even leaving aside enduring images of the president, you know, with the basketball shots at the paper towels and the like on his on his physics down there that just wasn't the reality for people that that that actually went through this. So I don't know. I think part of it is the typical presidential bluster, but I think it has more real. Hans acquaintances when millions of lives are going to be impacted by. Another storm detailing and the president is going to be seeing his leadership tested and having standard that he himself is is setting out be among those that are there used the judge and he said, they're completely totally prepared for this cane for hurricane Florence, Hopi hope he is correct about this. Let's hope to ever gives those grades will ultimately given a plus to this. The federal response is all in line, but it is interesting as they are preparing for this. They are also fighting back hard at the White House still against whoever the anonymous author of the New York Times op Ed was and against the a, the Bob Woodward book. We see really a campaign out there and we had in the midst of all this this week are first White House briefing Rick in nineteen days which which set a new Mark. It was it's the longest. We have gone in the Trump era without a a White House briefing even surpassing the the Sean Spicer who when when dark for. Extended periods of time and at this briefing or so much to ask about, we had so many things that have happened since the last time we were able to put the questions to the White House, press secretary. But I wanted to ask about something that had been a week ago, which was this tweet from the president, suggesting the Jeff Sessions should stop the prosecution of of congressman of a Collins and Duncan Hunter, too. I members of congress to endorse a candidate Donald Trump both charged with with with crimes, and he's basically saying this is going to hurt Republican's chances in the midterms and good job Jeff, Jeff Sessions. So I asked about that is the president really trying to suggest or outright saying that the Justice department shouldn't be investigating prosecuting allies of the president hurt his political chances. Certainly the. President thinks that no one is above the law. What he would like to see a fair playing field that they're also be. There have been a number of concerns raised about individuals both in the FBI and the department of Justice that have been ignored, and we'd like to see those looked at as well safe from those prosecutions go forward because there is, I can't wait in right now on an active investigation, but I can tell you that the president doesn't think anyone is above the law and simply stating that there should be cause for concern of of a number of things that have happened both in the department of Justice and the that we'd like to see those looked at as well. So Rick, I, I mean, she can't Wayne on ongoing investigate. I mean, the White House can't talk about an ongoing investigation. It's ridiculous. Not unless not unless you're the president. I guess that's that's the, that's the time to weigh in on investigations, doesn't he? He does from time to time and I, this is the new version of the tweet speaks for itself when they really can't go there as as as White House employees to to play this kind of politics, but it does. It is. It is fascinating to see the president continue to do this despite the people that have said that this is this is an appropriate thing for him to be doing. And despite the very warnings that are out there and despite the scrutiny is under about his relationship with the Justice department, and of course happening on the week of a major storm and happening on the week of September. Eleventh only makes it more jarring John in indeed. So Rick, I I want to. We have to take very quick break and I wanna get right to this conversation of with with Ken Starr I know that you've got to, you've got run, but I know you'll be listening very carefully once you get to a place where you can, you can listen to this conversation. So we'll take a quick break. We'll be right back with Ken Starr. When it comes to hiring, you don't have time to waste. You need help getting your shortlist of qualified candidates fast. That's why you need indeed, dot com. Get started today at indeed dot com slash podcast, that's indeed dot com slash podcast. All right, joining us now is Ken Starr former US solicitor general federal judge for president of Baylor University. And of course, the former independent counsel for four and a half years during the Clinton era from whitewater to Monica Lewinsky and all of that now a judge star. You have finally written your story about that incredibly chaotic and challenging time. Thank you for joining us. Oh, my pleasure. Thank you. The name of the book is contempt a memoir of the Clinton investigation, and I want to ask you because you came into this. You eventually became one of the most vilified pa-. Figures in America. The entire Clinton machine, the democratic machine, a targeted you in in a very personal way. But when you took this job, you were one of the you were one of the most well respected legal figures in America. You were talked about as a possible supreme court Justice. You came into this, you know, and and began this investigation. And at some point you write that you came to to to see a Bill and Hillary Clinton as people who believe they were above the law who were fundamentally dishonest contemptuous of of the legal process. I'm just wondering, at what point did you come to feel that way? Because I don't think that's the way you came into this job. Early early on. Because especially with respect to Bill Clinton and then Hillary's mendacity and prolific polit-. What am I trying to say? Her tendency to not be obedient to to law to be dismissive of legal constraints and so forth. And then it became clear overtime. But when I ride Little Rock Arkansas, I heard this from very respected lawyer above who Janet Reno appointed as the first special counsel, independent counsel as we were called in those days that we have the cooperation of very important witness. His name is David Hale, we believe David Hale and David Hale has implicated the pros United States and financial crimes and everything that we saw corroborated that testimony statement by David Hale. But we ended up not being able to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. But we believe in the investigation that President Clinton. Had been governor involved in financial crimes and that he lied about it under oath. So that was evidence almost from from day one that that was what the evidence was showing. And Bob Fisk was someone who I don't think the White House ever tried to paint in any way as a partisan or what have you. But then the I, I knew that something was a foot within two weeks of my taking the job. I was being subjected to a campaign of vilification, which was relentless, and the Clinton White House was was, was very, was very effective at it in any number of specs vilifying enemies. The Bill fine women who made accusations of wrongdoing and the case of Juanita broaddrick. Now. Gatien of an actual crime of rape by Bill Clinton. So the the theater became very dramatic, really add a one, and I wanna get to, of course the echoes to what we see today because listen to you, talk about about a White House about a president of vilifying a an investigator and and intimidating. Those who may be conducting around the investigation. I'm hearing some echoes of today, but, but before we we get today one one of the episodes and I, I was a a cub reporter for CNN kind of tracking for for a period of time. You know, most almost your every move. One of the one of the most bizarre episodes never. Many of them was the the rose law firm billing records. Which you had you would you would you would eagerly sought for a long time? Can you remind us where those records for? So how? How critical those Warren and where those records finally ended up showing up. Yes, the rose law firm billing records were extremely important, not just relevant but highly material to the investigation. They had been sought by my predecessor Bob, this before him, the United States attorney's office. Those these records have been sought literally for a year. Plus when I took over the investigation. The rose logger billing records show that Hillary Clinton perform legal services for Madison Guaranty savings and loan. She had, I think, toll lies publicly with respect to her involvement in that failed fraud ridden federal savings, federally insured savings and loan on by Jim and Susan McDougal, both of whom were crooks. So she was the lawyer for crooks, and she had personally lawyer, lawyers are right. I mean, that's that's, you know, crooks knee lawyers. Yeah, but it's a little bit different. I honestly, the rose law firm is a very respected law firm, and no, they really didn't represent crooks. But Bill Clinton, personally, as his friend, the crook Jim McDougal to steer legal business to Hillary Clinton over at the rose law firm. But of course you say, no, no, I didn't do anything for the rose law firm effect. Obviously, I'm paraphrasing quoting in the fullness of time those records which had been stolen and that's a, that's a harsh word, but it's true from the rose law firm and Little Rock Arkansas, no explanations who took them with those pre electron ick days. But then they were quote, discovered where a book loop in the book room of the White House where Hillary was writing her book, it takes a village. So the records clearly. Appeared with by the way, handwriting. Vince Foster ginger, delayed mitzvahs, junior with red ink and circles and arrows and so forth. All pointing to the fact that these records had been stolen by one of the three partners of the rose law firm or someone under their direction. Vince Foster Webster, Hubbell, who plead guilty to prod again his on law firm out against his client. Yeah, and and Hillary herself. Now Hillary had possession of these documents so can get to stop you for a second. I mean, this is this is why this is so you you you and your predecessor had been trying to get these. The rose law firm said, look, we don't have them. They've gone missing this critical piece of evidence in your vest Gatien and then it shows up in the White House? Yes. And. White House, not and someone residents in the residents of the way? Yes, yes. In in what was called the book room, which was where Hilary was writing her book. It takes a village. So how do you think the ended up there? How how did that happen? If they, we couldn't prove it, but we believe they were taking either by bits foster our web Hubbell or likely Vince Foster taken to his office, and we believe after his suicide in July, very tragic, you live nineteen Ninety-three those records were then this is we can't prove it. We couldn't prove it. But the records within taken from Vince Foster juniors office in the west wing of the White House where he served as deputy White House counsel and take over to the residence where they were hidden or they remained. Unavailable month after month after month. So the circumstantial evidence was was quite strong. Yeah, that's that's incredible. So I remember vividly when you finished your work and you again, you are independent counsel which is different than the special counsel that we have now and you were, you were not, you know, you were independent, you're operating independently of the department of Justice under a separate statute. And when you were done, you had to turn your file year report to congress. And the thing is there was the question of, what do you do with all the evidence that you had you had compiled over the course of a floor and a half year investigation. And the answer we learn as you were going to just drop it off at the house. And I remember standing there on the steps of the capitol waiting for literally the van to show up to drop off boxes and boxes and boxes of of of raw evidence. In addition. To this to this report that was to be released, but but all of the at the at the capitol building. And up to congress to figure out what the heck to to deal with it. But I, but I have to ask you when when the when they finally released your reports, not not the owner lying documents. Those those remained under seal. But when when they released your report and I was at CNN and I was working with candy Crowley at the time and like everybody else we, we started reading your report live on television because it was there was such interest in this. Obviously it was. So you know it was such an eagerly-awaited document and obviously. I mean, you didn't hold anything back, and this was not the kind of thing that many people would have wanted the kids to hear back. You watching TV during the middle of the day, looking back at all that did you do you did you have regrets without graphic. You wrote that story, the Monica Lewinsky, you know, aspect of it the the, the details that you put in there again, the weekend. I don't even know if we could repeat on this podcast looking back was, was that a mistake? No, it had to be done. And why did it have to be done because the president lied under oath. He was told by members of his party, please. We know you lied under oath in the Paula Jones deposition. We talked about that, but that was the background of all this when the supreme court of the United States rejected President Clinton's extravagant plane that he should enjoy immunity from any lawsuit, regardless of what he had done or have been alleged to have done. He didn't have to answer for however many years for years, eight years so forth. And of course, as I predicted the supreme court, I was involved at the litigation, but I followed it because of my interest in Costa show on the screen court. Rejected that extravagant claim nines and nothing. So the process unfolded in he should have settled the case. If he wasn't going to settle the case, it was gonna let a gate the case. If he was going to let the case, he should've told the truth and he didn't. He continued to lie including the federal grand jury committed perjury. So we felt and we obviously struggled with exactly what we say and how do we say and what we determined was we had to prove the elements of these very serious offenses of perjury and obstruction of Justice. We needed to beyond a reasonable doubt. We could leave nothing that could be called into question say, oh no, no, the prosecutors have overlooked that, or here's this other fact that points in the other direction, the glove doesn't fit the, you must acquit at cetera. That entire kind of narrative with his extraordinary lawyers at Williamson Conley who are just the best in the country. So we decided we had to prove the case, and that's what we did now, what was the surprise was when the house of representatives voted sight unseen, no-one had reviewed it to reveal or to publish the entire report unredacted on the internet and so forth that we did not intimate and we could not have reasonably -ticipant. And because that had never been done before, especially with our cover letter that warned that there was very sensitive material and so forth. So the house of representatives made that decision. They had the power to do it, but I certainly regret that the house did that they easily could have issued a dachshund reported handle things in executive session and so forth. It was extraordinarily because they members of congress got the report at exactly the same time that members of the people in the public, the report reporters and the general public, and what would I realized there were two separate system set up on Capitol Hill. There was the internet, which is how they were going to distribute report to the public at large and to those of us in the press. And there was the congressional intranet which was a closed internal system and and they were to go on the exactly the same time. And what I realized is that there that the internet would be overwhelmed because everybody in America was going to be trying to reach a report at the same time. If there was a good chance, it was going to crash or be slow or whatever. And with the intranet, there was a very limited of a group of, you know, universal people that we're going to be on it. So we at CNN I got into a member of congress office. Democrats who who allowed me to cable into his office live and put our live cameras trained on on one of their office computers and we ended up getting it I, I mean, it went everybody at the same time, but as predicted the the first one went down. So we. That's CNN and we brought in and it was I was with candy Crowley, and she, she was the one tasked with reading for again for the very first time and anybody saw, I mean, the the details of of of of the president's affair with Monica Lewinsky. I mean, really it was a. Imagine what you were thinking when you saw this unfold. Well, it was just terrible. But what and I remember this vividly. I try to describe this in my book and my memoir that we had the facts. We had the evidence once Monica when skin. I described the ordeal that we all had until Monica took herself out of peril by hiring finally, to very capable criminal defense lawyers, and we had a deal right away. We were not interested in prosecuting, Monica, Lewinsky. She's very smart, but she decided to not cooperate. And so that decision, coupled with the White House's decision to declare war on the prosecution while by the way, saying, hey, we're cooperating with the investigation which, again was was false. And one of the things that we did in the referral was two point two, we call it count, eleven the abuse of power discussion in the referral in the analysis which we felt strongly the we is the team, but also augmented by Sam dash. The legendary Sam dash is described in the book who felt strongly as well, having lived through Watergate a democrat, having served the Senate select committee on Watergate. Sam dash felt that it was count, eleven that connected when we were doing to the seriousness of Watergate that the president had abused. His powers invoking executive privilege improperly lying about whether it had been invoked or not trying to create through his lawyers and the treasury department of completely fan. Awesome. Privileged cold is essentially the secret service privilege which was preposterous no judge accepted that proposition Irish, the Justice department not to argue it. They did. They were loyal to the president to a fault. So you saw the perversion of the Justice department under Bill Clinton. And so at the end of the day, what congress ended up doing was taking this one dimension of our investigation because we did not believe that we had the kind of probative evidence in the Arkansas phase to prove the financial crimes and the perjury on the part of Bill Clinton. And we did consider as I out line of the book and some detail that which is never been revealed before that we gathered together to review a proposed indictment of Hillary Rodham Clinton. Present to the grand jury in Little Rock and indictment supported by very elaborate prosecution memorandum. I remember this is if it were yesterday and we decided we just did not have the evidence to go for. It would be usable in court to prove her guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. So the. Looking back? Yes, we just did not have the admissible of it. We did not have the cooperation Webster, Hubbell, that's imposter was dead. We did not have the cooperation, Susan McDougal who had been convicted of felony crimes. And so we end the documentary evidence with respect to the underlying financial crimes and Arkansas was limited, wasn't non-existent. But we just did not have much documentation. There had been a lot of shredding documents. I describe that in the book of the elaborate shredding systematic shredding documents of Madison guarantee. So the president and the first lady at the time, we're very lucky. And so there was a false narrative that well, nothing was found in Arkansas untrue. The report teen criminal convictions. You will know you live through it. The federal jury trials almost three. Three months long, convicting Bill and Hillary's business partners. The McDougals of fraud as well as the sitting governor of Arkansas who succeeded Bill Clinton as a governor, Jim die Tucker. So there was an enormous amount of skulduggery in Arkansas, but nothing that we felt that we could present because of the lack of evidence. And what's interesting is you didn't do what James Komi would then do so many years later when he also went down the road of investigating Hillary Clinton decided that there was nothing that he didn't have the the evidence to go forward prosecuting crime, but decided to go out and lay out what he did have on that. If I, if I get end just if they did that, that would be correct procedure. I would have done that. I look, here's our evidence and I don't have to get into cattle futures and the fraud that was committed to enrich. Hillary Clinton which was part of our investigation, but we knew how the marketplace worked and the press seemingly believed at the time that she read the Wall Street Journal and one hundred thousand dollars on a one thousand dollar investment in cattle futures. I mean, there's preposterous on its face anyone of any sophistication news that was a total lie. So let's let's move forward to the current situation and. You you see the way this president is behaving and you see this president that the campaign this president is waging against the special counsel. It's a different beast than what you were independent counsel, but it's it's very similar mandate and and we see the president saying what he has said, calling it, a witch hunt, accusing a Robert modern, his team of political bias in in in a very harsh way, man and his attacks echoed up by members of congress by an entire Cable News Network that spends, you know, hour after hour, echoing an expanding on the president's a tax. This, this looks a lot like what you went through and maybe considerably worse because we didn't see Bill Clinton from the White House. You know, leveling the. Attacks with the ferocity that this president is levelling at Bob Muller on on almost daily basis. There are very strong almost eerie echoes of past, but what we now know and the president's lawyers President Trump's lawyers have said, at least off the record. I've read reports of this affect. So it's my understanding that they have said, you know, we're just taking a page from the Clinton playbook vilify the prosecutor, the differences in and you've headed for the most part. Bill Clinton himself did not engage in vilification, but he did it into recklessly. It was relentless. It was a horrible. It was deeply personal, not just to me, but it effort to take out prosecutors on my staff of they succeeded with one prosecutor who at believing the investigation under vicious assault of by the White House. Machine, the lawyers, their surrogates, and so forth. But the president, the current president, in contrast that of through his lawyers is actually cooperated with the investigation from everything that appears Bill can stop for a second on that because I because I, I don't know that that's an entirely correct. I mean my my understanding on this following this joyously followed your investigation way back when is that the the, the initial approach under under Thai Cobb and John Dowd? The president's first of a legal team was full cooperation. They made White House officials fully available to be interviewed as we know Don Mcgann testified for our after hour after hour. They turned over more than a million pages of documents. What what people very close to the to the to the president is legal team told me is that they view that as a terrible mistake and they are trying to in every way on. Unwind what is already would already been done, and that's why you see the president with his current legal team fighting tooth and nail to not do an interview that the president has repeatedly said publicly, including to me that he would be willing to do fighting that interview. And now if you believe Rudy Giuliani their latest, their latest insistences, they'll do written questions, but not on the issue of of obstruction of Justice. They will do written questions and not allow any follow up to those written questions and ruling out an in person interview. I don't think you can characterize the president now as fully cooperating with with the special counsel. But my point remains. We were not getting the kind of cooperation that apparently I accept what you said existed at one time. What we're getting was very clever ruse that we are cooperating and every way now to be sure the president and the first lady sat down for interviews and so they, they certainly got credit for that where we believe they both committed perjury. So they weren't forthcoming and honest. But here, here's the thing with respect to the most dramatic face Lewinsky face the president feigned cooperation saying he was cooperating, and yet we were trying to get him to be interviewed appear before the grand jury we sent and I- chronicle all this in the book five letters to council overtime week after week month after month. And finally, we issued a subpoena the first time we believe that a president is as was just. I was subpoenaed to testify as opposed to producing documents and only then did then David Kendall and the president relent. And we agreed to what then happened famously August seventeenth nineteen, ninety eight. So they're, they're, you're right, they're, they're certainly a very different style in your face kind of style. What was happening. They were essentially playing on two levels in the Clinton White House, essentially claiming cooperation and doing everything to obstruct are investigation. Do you believe if you mentioned the subpoena of Bill Clinton, which they ended up and involuntarily testifying. In this case, the president's legal team has made it very clear that if Bob Muller subpoenas, the president to sit down for an interview, they will fight that subpoena. Yeah, that were to happen. What do you think happens at the supreme court? Well, I think the fundamental principle is as we articulated during the Clinton investigation, and really what my entire book is about is the rule of law. I think no one is above the wall and so that the president cannon fact, these subpoenaed there is an argument on the other side, which takes us back to the difference between the old independent counsel Stanford and which I have rated. And then what the situation is now with Bob Muller. He's an officer of the Justice department that greets different structure. Whereas I was independent appointed by judges at the behest or at the potato request of the attorney general. And that hybrid structure meant that in my judgment that I was duty-bound to use my dependent judgment independent of the executive branch, but mindful of the policies of the debris. And to proceed to get the job done, but Mars a very special and then somewhat sensitive situation in that he's an officer, the Justice department, as I see the president could order him to withdraw the subpoena. The president would not be able to do that under the old law. And if the president were to order him to withdraw the subpoena or fire him altogether, perhaps would could that be challenged could would that go to the supreme? I mean, clearly it would be challenged, but do you think the supreme court would. Would come down the way you just came down, say the president in this case actually is above the law because we don't have an independent counsel statute. And if he wants to pull the plug on an investigation into his own activities, these it's fully within his power to do. So it would raise a very different. The reason I think it's easy question to answer is because of this different structure us, you know what I'm saying? Then they're still that principle is, is anybody above the law? And you're saying because of this structure because we no longer have the structure that you know that this independent counsel statute. The president is in effect above the long that is going to be the argument if this comes to pass. And I think it's going to be a heart issue at the supreme court because of the very idea that here's an executive branch officer trying to order the president around. Well, just think of that and assistant secretary of the treasury or the SEC says, we're gonna come in and we're going to mandate SEC's sabbatical because independent organization, let's say it's treasury investigation some aspects of Trump banana thing. And as as business, I'm giving odd hypothetical, but I think it's useful of the courts would say, you go subtle this, we're not going to be involved. This is a squabble between the secretary of the treasury people report to him and the president states don't involve us at this. So it's a different kind of thing because. The special counsel statute gonna counsel statute struck the balance more in favor of independence than accountability. Now, we've it wrote it independence since the demise of the statute, and we have now set. We want greater accountability. So it's going to be a knee question. Now I do agree with the proposition. No one is about the all and much of my book is devoted to exactly that that the reason that the book is named content is first and foremost, that Bill Clinton is the only president in American history to have been held in contempt by a federal district judge and say, well, Federal Reserve judge can do virtually anything, but the president did not appeal that judgement. So that stands in the history books as final irrevocable. It can't be changed and it can't be pardoned because it was civil contempt is as as well. It was not. A criminal contempt charge to the presence. Pardon power doesn't go to that. Yeah, yeah. Many fascinating issues here because if this does if there were to be a subpoena and the president were to fight it. One question I. Is. What does the solicitor general represent in that case? Solicitor general represent. Right is he is the lesser general defending the Justice Department's the the officer of the Justice department, subpoena, or is the solicitor general working behalf of of the White House and the president fighting. That's peanut. I would say he definitely owes his loyalty to the Justice department and to the rule of law Lloyd. Yet I describe this in the book. There was a great lawyer in Washington. You'll remember him named Lloyd Cutler and when the White House under Bill Clinton and Hillary, the co presidency was in such tumult and chaos sound familiar. They fired the wonderful burning us by like very much as White House counsel and brought in a grey-haired wise village elder named Lloyd cover. And when I took over the investigation under the statute. And I'm headings a Little Rock. I described this in the book and some detail. Those fascinating. Remember the state, very, very vividly. So I landed in Memphis of changing planes, and I had two calls to return. I call my lawf- as and one was Janet, Reno's attorney general. The other was to cover the relatively new when house counsel and Lloyd Cutler said, can I wish I knew him? Can I wish you well in this new endeavor? And I wanted to say that I represent the presidency. David. Kendall Williamson Conway represents the president there. It is. The Justice department represents the rule of law. It is the department of Justice. It's not part for the White House defense team, and my part of my criticism of Janet, Reno's Justice department during that last most controversial phase of my worth was that the department of Justice was compromised. My opin. Hyphen of this will have a different opinion people like Eric Holder will say this, not, so that's fine. Let's have a debate about that. But I believe the department of Justice is with Coulter's deputy Attorney General, Janet, Reno. The attorney general were compromise because they started defending the White House. Fascinating, which is exactly what this president would like to see current Justice department doing. I know we've already taken up too much of your time, but I, I, I want to ask you before you go about some of the president's most recent comments. Actually, one specifically, of course via Twitter. This was a week ago Sunday. When all of read read the tweet, I'm sure you're familiar with it. He said two long running over my era, investigations of two very popular. Republican congressmen were brought to a well publicized charge just ahead of the midterms by the Jeff Sessions Justice department to easy winds now in doubt because there's not enough time, good job, Jeff. So this is an extraordinary statement because what the president is suggesting in this tweet is that a decision on prosecution of of allies of the president should be made with an eye towards the political impact. He's very clearly tying this to the midterms and these are by the way the first and second members of congress to endorse candidate Donald Trump. So. Jeff Sessions is by all account as ignored this tweet, but let me ask you, this, is this not attempted obstruction of Justice, and if the attorney general had taken this directive from the president of the United States, wouldn't it be in fact obstruction of Justice by the president, the United States. I think it's inappropriate in the extreme. I have criticized the president including a Washington Post op Ed that I did over a year ago about his approach with respect to the Justice department. In my on view, does not constitute obstruction of Justice because the president has the raw power to do what he's doing. But I do think it sounds in the nature of an abusive power, and that becomes a political issue. Also an issue for the house of representatives. So he should not be. Doing this kind of thing. Well, that's that's an interesting thing. You said that it's not obstruction of Justice because the president has the power to do what he is doing. So even if those investigations were ended because of the president's directive, it's not obstruction of Justice in your view. Yes, yes. Under a view, people are going to have different views on this, but I believe my view is supported by supreme court precedent cluding. The unanimous decision of the author Anderson case that says that this kind of thing that we're tying about that's not an abusive power. I'm AC's season that's not obstruction of Justice. It may be an abuse about, but not an obstruction of Justice unless there is something corrupt and corrupt is not simply, oh, that's mean-spirited or for zone good. It's corruption in the sense of rivalry and the like, and we don't have. This is what you're saying. Sounds a little bit like Nixon. David Frost interview for the president doesn't. It's Alito. What you're saying, isn't it? No, I'm sorry about a constitutional and statutory provisions. The obstruction of Justice statue has been rather narrowly interpreted by the supreme court's. I making a legal point that Richard Nixon didn't have that arrow in his quiver, and I'm not arguing the president's case. I'm just making the legal point. This is Brinkley. The United States says, you've got to have more than what I think exists. Now, you've got to have something accompanying standing in the door, so to speak of the Justice process such as bribery. Okay. One one I gotta go. Okay. Might being late. All right. All right. Ten star, former independent counsel, former solicitor general, former federal judge former president of Baylor University and current author of contempt a memoir of the of the Clinton investigation. Thank you for being so generous with your time here on powerhouse politics. Oh, it's great. Thanks. So much on you take care. Fascinating discussion. Thank you. Thank you. All right. That is all the time we have for powerhouse. Politics, truly fascinating discussion with Ken Starr. Thank you for listening and thank you to our production team here. Trevor Hastings, Avery Miller, Angie yack my partner in crime here, Rick. Kline. Thank you for listening and we'll be back soon.

president President Clinton White House Hillary Rodham Clinton Justice department President Trump Monica Lewinsky congress Clinton Rick Klein special counsel Ken Starr United States White House Clinton White House CNN Arkansas supreme court Puerto Rico
SPECIAL: A Nation in (Constitutional) Crisis

Words Matter

57:00 min | 1 year ago

SPECIAL: A Nation in (Constitutional) Crisis

"Welcome to words matter with Katie Barlow and Joe Lockhart. Welcome to words matter. I'm Katie Barlow. Our goal is to promote objective reality. As a wise man once said, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Not their own facts words, have power and words consequences. Welcome to a special edition of words matter. Katie's on assignment, I'm Adam LeVine, Joe, and I are thrilled to be joined today by former federal prosecutor me Rocca me is currently pace laws distinguished fellow in criminal Justice and a legal analyst at MSNBC and NBC news from February two thousand one and talk Tober two thousand seventeen maybe he was an assistant United States attorney in the southern district of New York as an ASA Mimi successfully prosecuted and tried several high profile organized crime cases, while at the Y Mimi held a number of leadership positions, including chief of the organized crime and racketeering unit as well as chief of the general crimes and narcotics units me. Rocca? Welcome to words matter. Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. Welcome made me. So tell me about that moment in the fifth grade where you said and saw the light and said, I wanna be a lawyer. And not only what do I wanna be aware? I wanna prosecute bad guys and bad guys. I want to prosecute mob guys and drug guys all that. Well, I actually had several of them snowman's that wasn't in fifth grade. It was much later in life. One of them to be honest was watching two different women speak Linda fairstein who is the former head of the sex crimes unit the Manhattan DA's office. And when I was in college, I saw her speak, and I literally had one of those moments of I want to do what she does. And I really did start out wanting to be sex crimes prosecutor had people close to me who had been victims of violence sex crimes. And that was what I wanted to do. I actually tried to get a job with her as a paralegal after college working in her unit, but her paralegals weren't leaving. So I ended up in the as paralegal in the appeals bureau of the Manhattan DA's office, which turned out to be a great experience and exposed me to a broader range of crimes, which I think was. A good thing and kind of went from there. And then I decided I wanted to be a federal prosecutor I worked at the New York City police department for a year and just really wanted to get into law enforcement and the work on different kinds of cases. And I clerked for a judge named John Gleason who had tried successfully John Gotti senior. And I think his passion for organized crime cases rubbed off on the and that was how I got into that field to begin with. I'm going to stay with the fifth grade because it works for me was her a moment in the fifth grade where you thought, you know, what I'm gonna be one of the most recognized lawyers in America, and I'm gonna be on TV every day, and I'm gonna get stopped on the street and people are gonna say go for it made me stay after definitely not. And there was not even a moment two years ago when I was working at the US attorney's office that I would've thought that would've been me. I only left the raise office in October of two thousand seventeen and I did not leave with the intention of going on TV or doing any kind of media. But I. Like, many former prosecutors federal and state and starting with one of the most recognizable. One's prix Perera who's my friend, and was my colleague and my boss. You know, I think it just we're in a different time. We're in an unusual time where it feels like there's really a need to speak out about the rule of law, and what the proper role is of the department of Justice, and that's more important than today. This is going to be the most important question. Do you watch billions asked that a lot? And I think I need to start watching it. So I can say, yes. But the answer is no I have to admit my good friend. Brian Koppelman created billions is before you get back to your office going to have four seasons delivered to you. I will we the next time. You're back. I want to I want to ask you how real is. They would go some I guess breaking news. Have yet. Breaking news podcasts. The Trump tech story in the New York Times have you were still sitting in Sunday's to give New York. What would your takeaway be what really stood out for you? A lot of people are making a big deal about the fact that the guys the worst businessmen in the history. But they were it seems to me there were some clues in there about how he sustain that business. That has a prosecutor might pique my interest. One thing is this isn't really in sort of my John row of criminal prosecutions. But yet as someone who, you know, worked with people in counterintelligence, it, I think that the main thing that stood out to me actually is where is it getting all this money to put into these businesses to them lose? And what happened after I think the last date reported on the report was nineteen. It was in the nine thousand nine. Four hundred nineteen ninety-five. Yeah. So what happened after that? Is he still in huge debt? I mean, this is a long time ago as he has pointed out already by tweet. We'll what's the financial state now. I mean, all of these questions about foreign influence that are still just so hugely important on answered. I think this highlights even more the need to get to the bottom of that. And the need to get his current tax returns and state of financial affairs as criminal matter. You know, obviously, we haven't seen the returns themselves where we're looking at reporting on it. But this is the kind of thing that you would use as a prosecutor as a roadmap. Right. I mean, it wouldn't necessarily be you look at this and say, oh, here's tax fraud. Maybe I mean there there could be significant fraud in how he in contrast the losses how he over. We've heard that he over inflated income for mortgage purposes could be that these weren't. Real losses. I mean, there's just all sorts of you know, there's a fine line between sort of being a smart person and getting around paying taxes and committing fraud. And we don't know the answer to that. But I think more importantly, you would use it as a guy to look at how he was conducting his businesses overall. I think the debate on this among the political intelligence he has been either his attacks cheat or he was a colossally bad business person. Exactly. And this one really seems to lean into the ladder that he was colossally, and we know for a long time, we know from the last Pulitzer prize winning expose media time said that his father bailed them out at various points. In fact, there's a apocryphal story about him coming in at one point two one of the casinos in buying a million dollars chips. So that they would not violate the regulations from the counterintelligence who replaced daddy here. And we don't know that as far as Bob molar and other people, but those were sitting in the room don't know. Exactly. And I don't know that this is really part of the story yesterday. But I think is important part of the tax question is we know from the lawsuit that was filed by the New York state attorney general that there was misuse of the Trump charitable organization, and that it was being used according to the attorney general's lawsuit for personal purposes that I mean that to me is something really worth digging into because I knew as a prosecutor one of the crimes that was most sort of frowned upon was misuse of charitable funds. I mean, when you saw people scamming old people or scamming people who were trying to give money to any kind of charity. Those people you really dug in and went after because for obvious reasons. So Bill Barr now is asserting or towing. The president shirt blanket -secutive privilege as the great Denzel Washington said in Philadelphia. Talk to me. Like, I'm a second grader. What is the appropriate use of -secutive privilege wise at their and now the leading part of the question. Why are they so misusing it here? And or maybe they're not. But it sure looks like they are the absolute our executive privilege is less. Understood less known less litigated than for example. The attorney client privilege for obvious reasons may executive privilege gets used less. It's a certified less, but I think with respect to any legal privilege. This is a pretty obvious basic fact to say that you privileges. No privilege is absolute no privilege can be used as a shield as a blanket. Right. It has defined meaning and just like a lawyer. Remember when Michael Coen's offices were searched pursuant to a legal search warrant and Trump said along with other commentators that that this was a violation of the attorney client privilege because he's lawyer, Michael. Good, man. Right before he thought he was cooperating. But the point is that was obviously an overstatement and turned out. It wasn't overstatement. Right. Only a miniscule amount of documents that were seized from there were actually covered by the attorney client 'cause is not something that you just wave your wand and say will you're a lawyer. So therefore, everything is covered same with executive privilege. Just because you're the president when you have conversations with someone doesn't mean those are covered by the executive privilege. They have to be conversations with members of your staff that are part of a deliberative process in decision making important policy decision making. Now, first of all a lot of the molar report is about time before Trump was even president. He was candidate. In fact, there's no candidate privilege. There's absolutely no candidate for. So I think if we if we looked at sort of the timeframe within the report probably I mean, I'm just throwing a number. But I don't think it's crazy seventy five percent of it deals with before he was president. Now, the part that deals with after he was president is of course, the obstruction part, and that part is going to largely be once he was president. But those conversations that we're talking about you don't have to be a constitutional or pellet lawyer Teno that those conversations between for example, Trump and Mcgann about whether shut down the molar investigation. Those are not an important policy making decision. No, it's actually policy to obstruct Justice. Exactly. And while there may not be. An explicit crime fraud exception with respect to privilege the way there is with the attorney client privilege the courts look at the balance. Are we talking here about something that could possibly have been a criminal act, and that that was drew Nixon? Right. That's why they ruled that the tapes, etc. Should be handed over and that would be true here. And so I think ultimately is a legal matter. This has no merit, and certainly it's sort of exposes just the politics of this and how bar is using the privilege in a political way to say the whole report is covered in heaven already waived privilege people start with waiver, and I try to say, wait. Let's talk about the merits. I because I think some people have an inherent reaction to waiver of wells that really fair. So first of all yes waiver is a very established principle under the law. But that's why I like to talk about the merits I. But as a matter of waiver in fairness, of course, it's waved you could ne- argue wave or once it was given. When it was given to Muller because he's still within the executive branch. But once the report was released without any objection on executive privilege into the public arena outside the executive branch. I do not understand how you could have any claim that it is not waived any legitimate claim and with respect to for example, Muller testifying again same thing. He's a prosecutor. He's not somebody with whom Trump was having delivered of discussions. So there's just no there's no there's really no legal basis for this. And they're using a shield. There's no better way to put it cracked how long can they tie this up in the courts? I think the assumption is that it would take a long time. And that's part of why Democrats keep trying to negotiate and get it some other way because who wants to drag this out for years, I saw actually Jill wine. Banks put something out yesterday on Twitter saying, you know, based on her experience, it really wouldn't take that long and she gave some actually. Civic dates of when they requested materials, and when they got it during next it, we know that courts can be slow, but we also know they can expedite and they do expediting. There are processes for that when things are of an urgent nature, and this would qualify as urgent and to coach generally when they see something that's blatantly a political move, which this is too. They take that as a consideration in how they count her and how the expedite they wouldn't necessarily use that terminology. But they would they would use the terminology. This is a matter of utmost national importance, right? We're talking about core. We're still talking about the security of our elections, and we've got an election coming up in twenty twenty and a lot of this goes to that core. We're talking about whether the president committed criminal acts, whether you call criminal under impeachment standards, or under prosecution standards. Those are matters that need to be decided quickly. So I really do think no matter what judge. I think no matter what party any particular judge was nominated by. Would both see this as something to be decided urgently. And I think we'll decided on the law that doesn't mean Democrats will get every single thing they want, but we're not even close. Now. It means that Republicans and bar will not be able to do these. Blink it stonewalling and obstruction. Really, we you say that it can be expedited. Would this be something that we could could go immediately to the circuit court or even to the supreme court because it's a congressional versus executive dispute or to start off like many cases at the district level. And then work its way up I have to brush up on my procedure. And I've talked about this with lawyers. I think there are avenues for direct appeal to the circuit courts. But even if you're going to a district court, I mean, I really do think this could be briefed argued and decided within a couple of weeks. We've already been negotiating for a couple of weeks. I'm not saying these are easing. We're lumping them. All together depends, which thing we're talking about. And how you parse it. Some of them are more complicated than others. But. For example. I and I think Democrats should lead with their strongest arguments. So I actually don't think that going to court I on give us the unredacted Muller report is their best argument. I think they're strongest argument is Muller testifying. I don't see any legal basis for that to be prevented. Any nor have I heard articulated, right? Like, they at least articulate these executive privilege grand jury when it comes to the report when it comes to Mcgann, again, I don't think most of those arguments are meritorious or or legitimate. But I understand that they can articulate the arguments as to molar testifying. I've yet even hear anybody articulate why which is why so far it's only been Trump who is said Mollison testify, but we're already hearing rumblings that was bargain back him up on that. I mean what basis and that to me would be one of the most powerful things Democrats could get quickly and would have a great impact and let the rest follow. And it's worth remembering that? Bar testifying before congress said he had no problem with Muller testifying that Trump said he was gonna leave it up to his attorney general, and then changed his mind via tweet. I it's you know, it's the way innocent people act, they keep their stories straight. They never tripped themselves out, and we may come back to that. Let's talk a little bit about this letter. You were part of organizing a letter just for background for people haven't seen it. It's now seven hundred prosecutors former DOD OJ officials, Democrats and Republicans who have basically made the case that if the president wasn't the president a very strong case, not even a close. Call would be made for indicting him for obstruction of Justice talk a little bit about how this came together. And why there are a lot of prosecute former prosecutors out there who are writing articles who are on TV Celje had come out and said it recently by the time, she said, I think most of the former prosecutors were like, yeah. Exactly. You know, this idea that if it were not for the L C memo, this would be a prosecutable case. Absolutely. This would be case you would indict as a prosecutor, no matter what your party, and this is a case that you would very likely win. I've heard some prosecutors say absolutely you would win. I never say always litigation risk. And particularly when you're talking about possibility of during -cation with someone like Trump, but it is absolutely a winnable case and more importantly case, the should be charged when I was a prosecutor, and so many of this of us have talked about this. It was really one of the most important types of cases, you could prosecute were obstruction of Justice cases, because I cannot tell you how many cases we weren't able to make important gang cases terrorism cases, organized crime cases fraud cases, because people successfully obstructed Justice or tried to obstruct trusses and made the job so much harder. And so if you let those go unaddressed. Just that kind of conduct that kind of behavior you're really jeopardizing the entire sort of basis of our criminal Justice system. And that's as as a prosecutor as someone in law enforcement. That's obviously a scary thought and something you want to prevent so an particularly with someone like the president who should be forget about cooperative with an investigation, which I know he says he was but in reality he was not because he wouldn't even sit down for an interview for one. But particularly with someone like that who should have such respect for the law and his wi- at the end of the day other high profile elected officials like Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton and others. Eventually did sit down whether they did it in exactly the way that people would have wanted or not it was too much to say, no, I as the sort of head of the executive branch gonna just refuse to cooperate, and George W Bush and Dick Cheney there. He got something Cini could. Yeah. Just to do. It's it's they they very simply said however on. Comfortable, I'm not above the law. Exactly. That's that's what Trump is. I mean, the the letter makes clear that from the former prosecutors said this you don't think this is a close call, and it is the Justice Department's regulation on not indicting us sitting president. That is the obstacle here. You kind of divide this up into three categories, and just, you know, very briefly, you know, make the case reach of these verses the president's efforts to fire mower and to falsify evidence about that effort. We know the most well known at this point. And I think damning part of that is his ability or his attempts rather to try and get through Mcgann to fire Muller. I think that if you look at the actual conduct here, it's the act of doing it. And then the act of trying to cover it up that also speaks what you know consciousness of guilt. Right. I mean, he's now trying to say I didn't do it at. I didn't give that instruction. I didn't mean fire. I mean, you you can parse it, right? Short. You can you can raise defenses. But the actual overall impression of what he was trying to do. And when you then look at the fact that he even suggested to Mcgann to write a letter to the file saying that he hadn't tried to get Mcgann to fire Mueller that is really damning. I mean that is something a prosecutor in an ordinary case of someone tried to get someone else to falsify a letter a letter contradicting what had just happened to cover it up. It's a cover up on top of a cover up, and it's it's consciousness of guilt. It's shows that he knew it was wrong at the time. I just want to say one quick thing. Which is of course, this case has no exact parallel. We're talking about the president in his interactions with Mcgann or his interactions with with other people with previous. But what is not unfamiliar? What is I think so similar in? Why so many prosecutors look at this and say this is chargeable is the idea of. A person in a position of power whatever that position may be and trying to use that power to interfere in an investigation. So no one's gonna use. It exactly. Like the president. Can no one's in exactly that position but mob bosses are in positions of power, and they use people under them all the time to try and interfere in investigations heads of corporations financial executives. They tell people to destroy emails. They ask people to write exculpatory Email fake scope Atari emails. They tell people to lie without necessarily telling them directly to live give a wink at a nod of you know, what the story is. And then I'm sort of jumping ahead to to one of the next categories. I think I think those things fall within the first two categories. We're talking about the efforts to fire Muller, and then the efforts to limit the investigation by trying to get sessions to recuse himself trying to say. This investigation should be about future. Elections not this election is trying to stop this investigation from going into not just him but into what Russia did. And I think that's important to keep in mind. It's not just about him. He's trying to hide what Russia did and then the third category. Which in some ways is the most familiar, I think is the attempted witness tampering. I saw that so many times in so many different ways here again, it's very unique. How Trump did it because he was in this position that had this very unique power of offering a pardon to someone. And so when Cohen was in legal trouble when Manafort was in legal trouble to use the two most obvious examples, he both dangled he hung. He shouted the without using the exact words the idea that he would take care of them at the end of the day if they didn't cooperate, and that's why when Cohen ultimately did cooperate or. Or you know, somewhat successfully and somewhat unsuccessfully Trump turned on him. And then turn to another familiar tactic of intimidation, attempted intimidation. I mean, he tweeted about his family about his father in law. The night before Cohen was supposed to testify in congress at the time. That she had seen the movie the godfather, exactly. Right. Doc, but all of these things I mean, that's why I think prosecutors who look at this objectively say, it's not even a close call. It's not that we've seen this exact conduct. You can't. But this is a familiar tactic of people who have power trying to use it trying to get people not to cooperate against them trying to control as much as you can an investigation the most similar conduct that could think of would be if you had a prosecutor, actually or someone in law enforcement who tried to obstruct a case and investigation and those cases have been prosecuted to again, not exactly the same. But someone who has a unique form of power and tries to destroy evidence. Get rid of evidence whether it's against them or maybe a CI who they're protecting confidential informant. So not a close call. But yet honestly hard letter to right because I think that it's hard for people who used to work for the department of Justice to come out and say. Here's our opinion on a case that we're not prosecuting. We know that's not an average thing to do. That's not an everyday thing in this goes to your point of why think it's powerful and surprising. But but not unexpected that so many prosecutors former prosecutors signed onto it this is not something people do lightly these people all have careers, many of them were law firms some of them who are who are judges can't sign them. And there's a whole category of people that couldn't sign on. But I think it's remarkable, and it's grown from three hundred forty on the day it came out to over seven hundred. I would imagine that many of these people are going to have business in front of the department of Justice, and their name is going to be on this let me and that that is an active of courage is there any downside as you look at this to career prosecutors injecting themselves on this way. Yes. I mean, you know, part of why we said at the beginning. A lot of us are doing this is to try to is to speak out about what we see as the political Zeh. Of the department of Justice. And and the way that Trump has stepped into the world of law enforcement in a way that really is unprecedented. And he shouldn't so yes, there is that risk of people saying, oh, well, these are all just a bunch of people who probably angry Democrats Democrats more angry Democrats, they must be friends with the people on the Miller team. But I think that the counter side the counter way to that is so important because what what really was the tipping point for me. Personally. I can't speak for everyone else was when I started hearing quotes from anonymous DOJ sources, you know, I saw an in one article and then bar basically said it that this is not a prosecutable case. They're basically saying, yeah. That thing that Mullah wrote about obstruction. No obstruction. No, one would prosecute this nothing to see here. And it is just so false that you can't let that go unaddressed from a professional perspective. You know, when I was a prosecutor, I actually was not registered as democr-. And the entire time. I was a federal prosecutor. And because I wanted to have the ability to say that I was unregistered that I was not did I vote don't cut most of the time. Probably you know. But but it prohibited me from doing certain things like voting in certain primaries. But I thought it was important. I know a lot of other federal prosecutors who who did that because you really try to be as objective as possible I would have happily prosecuted Democrats or Republicans if they were good and real important cases to bring and I think most of the people who signed that letter. You know, that's true of one of the arguments that I've heard out there is well, he attempted in a lot of places, but he wasn't successful his ineptitude. His ineffectiveness makes him not a criminal. How do you respond to that? First and foremost, I will say I don't think that's right. I think that his communications with Manafort were successful. I mean, we know that Manafort did this. Pretend cooperation thing one of the prosecutors said in court that they spent fifty hours, I think with Manafort with him lying to them that would Manafort have cooperated, but for Trump sort of communicating with him while he was trying to cooperate. Finding out information offering him basically without directly offering apartment. We don't know for sure, but it seems to me that there's a very good chance at that had an impact it also may have very much delayed. Cohen Cooper Cohen now talks about the fact that he felt he could be taken care of until he didn't in even Muller spoken. The report about hurdles that he faced in. Why he didn't feel he got all of the information? He would have wanted to get that's not all attributed to Trump. But I think there are some examples of it that you can directly to him. But more importantly, there are legions. I mean, hundreds of small and big cases that the department of Justice under Republican and. Critic administrations have prosecuted where there was no underlying crime scooter Libby is one of the more high profile ones Martha Stewart, but there are I mean, just so many that people wouldn't know about wrote people tried to obstruct Justice in the kind of cases, I was talking about before gang cases mob cases, and you prosecute those because you need to protect the process and the system if you wait for cases, where there is an underlying crime that is provable. Then you're only ever going to prosecute people who fail at obstructing Justice. And that makes no sense incentive. Then is for people to be really good at obstructing Justice. Because if they're really good at it, you never proved the underlying crime will then you can't prove obstruction that just turns the whole point of the statute on his head. It makes absolutely no sense. You want to be able to prosecute this crime because it is attempted prosecuting the the D endeavor to obstruc that is the word of the statute and its purpose? Talking about underlying crime. And again people saying there's no underlying crime was Muller hampered by the factor is that arguments strengthened by the fact that because his purview was so narrow there might have been underlying crimes, for example. The Michael Cohen in the southern district on the campaign is that one of the elements that makes this unusual in his there is it a myth if there's no underlying crime. Or maybe we don't know that there's underlying crimes just talked about that for a second. I mean, you're right. It it. It's lot were complicated than just no other line. Crime was charged here. Because what matters here is was he trying to obstruct an investigation. And so the idea I guess the bars saying, well, if there was no there was no underlying crime to be prosecuted and Trump knew that then why would he try to obstruct it? So we had no intent. But of course, he didn't know that. There was no underlying crime to be charged because one Muller came pretty close uncertain areas. I mean, the most obvious example is this possible campaign finance charge that it looks like could have been brought. Against Don jR, and maybe others about the Trump Tower meeting and taking the meeting with the Russians to possibly accept emails about Hillary Clinton that wasn't prosecuted on a pretty narrow basis. Even according to Muller. Right. It was well can't prove that he had that high heightened intent. That's just one example, more broadly, and there's no way Trump could have or Kushner or Donald Trump junior could have known that when this started they knew they did things that sure smelled like crimes and so their effort to obstruct them doesn't matter whether a prosecutor Oltman could meet those very specific elements of the crime under a beyond a reasonable doubt standard second of all as you say Muller was only looking at a very narrow range of crimes having to do with the election and Russia, really, we know he referred out. All of these other cases, we know about some of them the southern district with respect to Michael Cohen the campaign. Finance the inaugural committee. All of those are things that Trump and people around him could have been thinking. Woo once they start looking at me, they were gonna find this stuff. And Lastly, I would say I still think that really what they were trying to do also is to stop the investigation into what Russia did that is the crime right Russia. We know committed a crime here, they can call it an attack you call them and their actual Russians charged with that why Trump wanted to stop. That mean, we know he doesn't want us to find out about it. 'cause he's still denying it happen. He still won't admit it happen. So to say that he had no motive and intent to stop. This investigation is literally I think crazy put on your historian had will historians. Look back at this week and say, this is where we reached a constitutional crisis. I think so I mean, if we hadn't already been there, I think when you now have the head of the department of Justice, and the started really weak. Ago. Really from the moment of the roll out of the Miller report became even clearer with bars. Testimony. You have the person is supposed to be head of the Justice department acting as the president's white collar criminal defense attorney. I mean, there's really no other way to put it. He makes defenses factual defenses for him. He makes legal arguments for him. He spins things for him. And now he's preventing in this very way to Broadway documents information testimony and evidence from getting to another branch Coequal branch of government with really almost no basis in the law. I think we're there we are at in. The question is what are they going to do about it? I think we could spend many many hours beating up on the bar. I want to shift this though little bit and turn to Bob mower and your assessment of his job. My old colleague David Kendall wrote up at in the Washington Post a couple days ago. And let me just read one. He he starts by saying is a man of great integrity. But in paragraph two he shifts very quickly and jarring wait by saying. But the failure to draw any conclusion on whether the president obstructed Justice was a massive dereliction of the special counsels duty and the reports explanation of this failure is both incoherent and illogical later in the letter. He basically says mower flinched David is very careful with his words. There were a million things. I wanted to say when we were working together and his opening answer was always know, and is closing answer was hell, no, give me a basic sense of how mower handled the ultimate disposition of the report and the recommendation, I think it's easy to sit here. Now, you know, lawyers. Prosecutors pundits people to say Muller. Should have done. This Miller should have made his decision. And I understand that David Kendall is not someone who says that easily. So I I take it seriously. But, but here's what I think I think that Muller tried to be perhaps overly fair if he has a fault it was being fair to a fault. It was trying to be as non-political as absolutely possible. He saw this. As a matter. I cannot under this policy. Indict the president. I am not going to accuse him of a crime that he then does not have the criminal Justice process to basically exonerate himself through. But be cross-examined. I think if you read between the lines, and again, this goes to part of why I think so many lawyers signed the letter the former prosecutor signed the letter we were talking about if you read between the lines. It is clear what Muller thought, and he came as close to sing it without saying. It. He said if I could say that he did nothing wrong. I would say that this does not accuse him of a crime. But it does not exonerate. I mean, he used a lot of words to say something that many other people would have said more directly other special counsels would have said it more directly and a lot of people wish he had set it more directly. But at the end of the day. I think is a good thing that Muller stayed where he stayed because they're doing it. They are trying to cues him still of being on a witch hunt. You know, they'll they'll forever have their tax, but they have no credibility Muller did not let himself get pulled into that. And I think by staying where he did and bending over backwards to have this fair result of I'm laying out the facts you can make the decision, but I am not going to make that accusation here in this this arena. It will look the like the right thing to have done. Way down the road. I also do think he probably I don't want to if I wanna use the word overestimate are under estimated his friend Bill bar. I would be surprised, and we may never know this. But I would be surprised if he thought bar was then going to come in. And do what he did which is say, well, maybe president can't be indicted. But I can sure say that I don't think he committed a crime, which is of course, not consistent with the. He wasn't aware John Mitchell. He was on the president's reelection team the creep team. Yeah. Exactly. I don't love it. I'm not happy with it. I wish Muller had been clear, but I understand why he did it. And I think way down the road it will serve the rule of law department of Justice. Well, that he stayed out of it. So my next question kind of think of it as I'm a Senator and we're hearing, and I'm going to make a statement there really isn't a question for the unintended consequences of molars approach was that allowed the White House to shape the narrative over the first couple of weeks, total Donna ration-, the, you know, the president is innocent of everything, and you know, in some respects. Yeah. I don't know what other strategy. They had available what they deliberated. But I know they believe that they were very smart and got something done ADEMA. I have talked about this. It's a little painful for him. But I'm in a different place. I I'm in this as mission accomplished to which is basically. By claiming total? It's honoration every piece of evidence that contradicts tolls on our Asian becomes more important and more about and this is the long game here and the long game. If this is a this is a Shakespearean play where about to get to the third act and the third act. The climax is more on the hill talking about what he really thinks there's lots of people in my business of communications and political communications that are debating their strategy. But I take the long view and believe that they've undermined their position that there's no one there who can speak credibly on this anymore, and they would have been much stronger. I've said this over over again they needed bar to be seen as the fair arbiter, and they blew that. And all Trump had to do all he had to do that day was to say, hey, listen. I'm glad that they said. That in committed crime never committed a crime. I wouldn't have done that. But boy crime was committed against us. And here's what I'm going to do about it. And then be a little humble. And I think that would've worked a lot better than what they did do. And that's my question. Do is Senator asking a question. Well, Senator I'll take your question. First of all, I I think Trump would have been better vise by that. Because that would have been a really good response for so many reasons both in the short term, and in the long term as you say because that was his best day for him when he said, I I was exonerated no collusion obstruction. And it can only really go down from there. But it also was a successful tactic. As you say to delay into let the narrative come out. Although I think the media and the Democrats people have done a good job of clarifying that way. No, it's not quite that simple. You it's hard to put the toothpaste back, blah, blah, blah. But you know, I think more people than not get that. I still think and the numbers bear this out that more people are not have not read the Muller port and three percent. I think so and and they're not going. To it's long. It's hard to read wish people would read at least the executive summaries. There's all sorts of talk about getting celebrities to read it and do oral readings maybe it will become better now. But Bob Muller testifying is the best way to get the information. That is in the report to the public, even if he does nothing else other than restate some of the main conclusions of the report, which I think, by the way is pretty much what he's going to be willing to do that would be invaluable. I mean, this is the book to the movie and Bob mowers star. And perhaps Don Mcgann is the star perhaps perhaps, you know, many other switch gears again a little bit. I'm interested. If you can put your SIM why had back on what are they up to? I wish I knew having been there a long time. What do you think the r- up to? I don't want to raise expectations. I think that's very dangerous. I think it was done probably too much about Muller. And then when people maybe didn't see what they thought. They were gonna see a day. Then said, oh, the southern districts going to indict him don't think the southern districts going to indict Trump, first of all I will say that. Because I have heard some people say that the southern district is so independent. They will just, you know, forget the memo that's not going to happen under any US attorney, not just and if the attorney Joe would overrule them, right, right? But I mean, even if they tried. I mean, could they if they had a serious enough crime? Could they go and say, I think it should be reconsidered, maybe. But even that, I think Muller. It sounds like didn't even do that. So I don't expect them to do that. I think that they will investigate. In other words, they will keep following. I am confident that if the evidence of crimes is there, and it is good reliable. Evidence will not be stopped because we have a Republican administration. I I have confidence that they will try to bring those charges. Now, I would have set a couple of weeks ago that even Bill bar wouldn't stand in the way of that. I'm not as confident of that anymore. I think though that that will get out if that is where it leads. I do believe that it would somehow get out. I don't know exactly how I can't tell you. But I do believe that the line career. Prosecutors there would feel so betrayed by that if they thought they had a real case to bring putting politics aside, amber stop for political reasons. People would find out about it people know who you are. Now, you're on TV and unsure you get stopped. And you know, most people tell you, you're great. You probably have an occasional doesn't I've had that experience. One of the things that has struck me is, you know, back during the Clinton impeachment because I I still do kind of have my head in nineteen ninety eight and how that all played out. And I tweeted about this. And I used you as a sample last time it was much white men who were commenting on legal issues there. There's been a sea change. What does this mean for women and people of color that you know that? It's not just a bunch of white men telling us what the law is that's been one of the most rewarding parts of doing the TV thing, particularly during the Cavanaugh hearings. I cannot tell you the number of women who tweeted at me Romi emails came up to me at to this day and say with tears in. There is some of them that it meant the world to them to have a woman sitting there during the hearings talking in the way that. It's not impossible for a man to talk. But they felt like they had a voice because there was a woman saying things that they were thinking. And of course, that's because with for example, you know, the the cavenaugh hearing so many women have had so many experiences like that not exactly like Dr Ford's, but experiences that were upsetting that they never talked about that they never told anyone until much later because they didn't feel they could or they didn't feel comfortable or no one would believe them. And so having wasn't even about being a lawyer at that point. But just having a woman talk about that who had a position where I was on TV and could say it, I think really was meaningful. And so that to me mental that I had had mothers write me emails about their daughters being inspired now to go to law school as a woman, it has been very rewarding to get that kind of feedback from other women one of the reasons I was inspired to become a prosecutor was seeing Linda fairstein speak, and it was partly just her command. End of what she was talking about and her thirty, and it was very inspiring. When I saw one Anita hill one through that inspired me as well. And so to then be commenting on the cavenaugh hearings was was very meaningful. I can't think of a better way to and say maybe thanks for joining us. Coversation? Thank some heavier back. Thank you. So Joe at this point in the show, we liked to find out what else is on your mind. The big story so far this week toughened a week like this to call one of them big is the New York Times exhaustive investigation of Donald Trump's taxes. Tax return tax information from nineteen eighty five to nineteen ninety four talk about that. Joe in terms of debunking this myth that was built I himself through his book than with the help of Mr. Burnett and others on the apprentice of Donald Trump being the successful businessman. Yeah, listened I who does to the New York Times for getting this information. Congress can't get it New York state. Can't get it a couple dog at New York Times reporters got it. And they they should be congratulated for that. In many ways. It's kinda settled I think the one of the great debates about Trump through this process. And you know, one story was. Donald Trump was very rich man, and he got very rich because he was an incredible tax cheat. And he didn't pay any taxes, and he violated every tax law that was out there. There was another one that said that Donald Trump was actually one of the worst business people in the history of the country. I got a little insight into this from a couple of areas through my wife's family Herenton, go work in Atlantic City. One ran a casino and one did advertising casinos, and they gave me just over the kitchen table. A lot of insight into how Trump took these very valuable properties over levers, drove them into the ground, and you know, top of that never pays bills. So I was always kinda leaning toward that side of bad business. I think the story ends the debate. He clearly is one of the worst business people. He shouldn't be compared to Bill Gates. It's or Sergei brand. Or Mark Zuckerberg? He should be compared to Bernie my made off. This is a guy who forty years has been doing the long con, and he's been taking other people's money and through disastrous business decisions losing it. I mean, it's Bernie Madoff two point. Oh, and I think that is incredibly embarrassing for Donald Trump. I think that's why he's fighting so hard politically it blows up the myth of this outsider who says a self made billionaire who just was smarter than everybody else had every turn. Now is this going to turn a bunch of Trump? He's into anti Trump. He's probably not. But it's very difficult for him to talk about how his business experience helps him in the White House. Any now has a record of mismanaging the White House in the same way. He's mismanaged his business and. You know, and I look at this. And you know, the New York Times says over ten years he lost over a billion dollars. Now, he's up the ante his tax cut is costing the American people at trillion dollars a year. So, you know, I guess that's moving on up for for Donald Trump. I've heard of failing up by heard of, you know, failing sideways. This guy has made failure a life experience and a marketing gold mine because he's never succeeded at anything in appears at set for fooling people and Michael Cohen was right. When he said before congress under oath and said, Donald Trump is a con, man. And Donald Trump is a cheat. One of the things we learned from that New York Times story was that counter to what Donald Trump has been telling everybody for forty years. It wasn't just a million dollar loan from his father, our friend, Tim O'Brien at Bloomberg to bunk that but I think we got an insight that we hadn't had before to the extent of his. Other being like better way putting his sugar daddy in terms of the investigation going forward into today. How is that relevant? And does it open up questions that need to be is incredibly relevant from the counter intelligence point of view? And that's what we got very little of the moa report. We know now from previous New York Times reporting that one by Pulitzer prize, the same set of reporters that Fred Trump was the guy who kept bailing out his son. There's one story that he won casino was so badly run that Fred Trump had to come in one day by million dollars chips. So that they wouldn't be you know, they wouldn't violate the casino board regulations came in and bought a million dollars and bailed his literally bailed his little boy out at the casino. That's what we know of. So we know that here's where it gets really interesting. Fred, Trump left us was no longer able to bail out his son. So who was bailing out Donald? Trump from you know, the mid nineties on and that's where you get into. Why were banks having been burned so many times Deutsche Bank the most important? Why were they still owning him money? Where was his cash flow coming from because his businesses were failing everybody thought that on the Trump is beholden to Russians that was dead as far the mall report mower. Tin say that mower answered a very specific question about whether the campaign, criminally conspired with the Russians to influence the election. He did not get into whether Donald Trump was bailed out in a way that he became beholden to a foreign entity the Russians the Saudis, whoever that's not answered yet. And what the New York Times story does is that puts it Fronton and center because and it legitimizes what Adam Schiff and Jeff. Jerry, Nadler, and the Democrats are trying to find out without this New York Times story another way to put it is. I think a lot of people would look at the the congress looking into his family finances as overreach. But if you read this New York Times story now you need an answer. Now, we need to know, you ran your business into the ground for ten years and daddy bail you out. Same guys running his businesses next ten years isn't like all of a sudden he went back to school and learn something, and we know he had a successful TV show. But that does not make you were ten billion dollars who was funding who was bailing him out. And at what price maybe we'll find out another thing that happened this week show is your old friend, Ken Starr's back. He's never really left us. But he had some comments which I will let you characterize and discuss how you feel about his reading of the modern vest Gatien. Well, when I read the my head exploded. So it took me a little while to put all the pieces. Back together. But he was he's he's now signed a deal with Fox News. I had an counter with him for about forty five minutes on CNN, which led him to become an exclusive guest on FOX. And he he's you know, and and make the deal that he'd never go on another Jimmy television show again. So yeah, I'm pretty proud of that he said something to the effect of mower. Put too many details in his report and it was prosecutorial overkill. That's about when my head exploded. Bob Muller did a four hundred and forty page four hundred forty eight page word which dealt with a foreign adversary attacking our election system and the president of the United States and his camp attention conspiring with them to undermine our elections. And then I'm massive effort to obstruct Justice talk into that in four hundred forty eight pages. Ken Starr, spent thousands of pages. Looking at an inappropriate relationship between the president of the United States and a White House in turn we all know from the contemporary writings of the time that Ken Starr, Brett Cavagnaud sunscreen, couldn't get enough of the sex. I'm not excusing the president of the United States. But I tell you the last thing I'm going to do is take a lecture on overkill from a bunch of Titus Republican wing nuts. I don't know that he ever had any credibility, but he's just become a running joke. Bob muller. Also, a Republican not a wing not limited himself in that investigation. You dress in your last in the last topic? But it wasn't he couldn't just be Russia in Donald Trump. And it couldn't just be two thousand sixteen election. Donald trump. It had to be Donald Trump Russia and the two thousand sixteen election in that narrow scope and like you said Ken Starr went way outside the scope. I remind people a land deal in Arkansas, the ninth. Nineteen eighties somehow lead there for Ken Starr to be lecturing Bob mower over on overreach and overkill, and too many details there isn't a term for it. Well, there is one he's full of shit. And finally, Joe we touched on this recently. But your president my president other's presence of awarded athletes the presidential medal of freedom. Most times it is when that athlete has retired the finished his or her career talk a little bit about what we saw in the rose garden on Monday with Tiger Woods and that photo op with Tom Trump. He I think this is a really interesting story we talked about it a few weeks ago. And I think I talked about how I was conflicted that on one level. I thought here's a guy who is guilty of some really bad behavior is an athlete, but hardly a role model for many of the things. And then I remember refine. Acting on. Well, if you widen the lens a little bit he is a role model for a lot of people. You know, there are a lot of African Americans and mixed race people who looked to Tiger Woods and said, I play golf too or I if I work hard enough if I have his worth ethic, so while it was debatable. I sort of came down on the side of the president wants to give the medal of freedom. You know, go for it because there was enough there. There wasn't a your time story that raise some questions about Tiger Woods, and the president are business together developing golf courses, and that raise some hackles, you know, again, you know, I think we're all numb to the corruption Donald Trump. So you know, that that didn't spoil it for me. What spoil it for me was Donald Trump big surprise. He has he's awarding the medal of freedom to Tiger Woods and always talks about his golf. And what a great golfer is any doesn't even recognize that. All of the other things he's done as far as his foundation as far as sending a message to African Donald Trump has has been quoted in the past as saying that golf is a game that the rich should be played only be played at this is all in Rick Reilly's. Bob book should be played at exclusive country clubs and public golf courses are abomination the, you know, the lower classes shouldn't be playing and Tiger Woods is the example of someone who sang that's wrong. It should be. But all Donald Trump to do was talk about you know, what a great golfer. He was. And I think he did a huge disservice to Tiger Woods Tiger Woods at one point looked a little bit like rod Rosenstein in the press conference as in. You know, aren't you going to mention like all the good I've done, and as usual, you know, it's it's almost you know, it is the most predictable thing in the world. Even a good idea can be ruined by Donald Trump and probably will be Jill. Thank you as always. Lilly back next week. And I know you will be too with with more thoughts with more thoughts and probably still a little pissed off at Trump. There you go. Thank you. For listening to words matter. Please rate and review words matter on apple podcasts and other podcast providers.

Donald Trump prosecutor Bob Muller president Democrats department of Justice attorney executive Don Mcgann New York Times Trump congress New York fraud Bill bar Fred Trump Pulitzer prize Linda fairstein
How to run an impeachment trial

POLITICO's Nerdcast

34:57 min | 1 year ago

How to run an impeachment trial

"Do you solemnly swear that in all things appertaining to the trial of the impeachment of Donald John Trump president of the United States now pending you will do impartial justice according to the Constitution and laws. So help you God allow listeners and welcome to politicos Sir cast. I'm Scott Bland your host this week on the nerd cast. We are going to talk through the upcoming Senate impeachment trial big news. We're going to do the play by play. Play as far as we know it from the swearing of the senators and the chief justice all the way through the closing arguments and we have some idea of how things will proceed. Thanks to our guests reporting on the preparations. Nations and his encyclopedic knowledge of what happened in the Clinton impeachment. But first we're going to talk to some of our numbers nerds about polling and the upcoming Iowa caucuses. This is for Democrats. What the most recent twenty twenty numbers tell us and also how that plays into a recent spate of congressional endorsements? We've seen for the top candidates heading into Iowa as always a quick note that we are taping this on Thursday January sixteenth. Anything breaking that happens after that we will talk about it on a future episode all right. Let's dive right in with Steve Shepherd. One of our campaign editors a polling expert. He's here in the studio Steve. Thanks for being here. Thank you for having. And we're also joined by Allie Mutt. Nick who covers house candidates and elections for Politico Alley. Welcome back to the NERD CAST. Thank you so Steve. We just suffered through a bit of a polling drought over the holidays. It was a little unclear. Exactly what was going on in the Democratic presidential rate but we've since been hit by a wave of new surveys on the twenty twenty race in the past week Iowa. I wouldn't New Hampshire and other early voting states drawing closer so Steve. What is the picture painted by these new polls? Yes and no one suffered more than I threw. That drought The picture the church is muddled especially at the top of these polls and and the ones that are going to talk about were conducted prior to Tuesday's debate in Iowa Which of course the candidates are hoping for bounces out of so? I just WanNa lay down that caveat would it showed is essentially a four car pile up right at the top of the of of the race both Polls from the register and CNN and also for Monmouth University showed Joe Biden People Judge Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren Dan all pretty tightly bunched together in some different orders. Joe Biden was fourth among that group in one poll. And I in the other. So you know. There's some variability there but in essence especially when you deal with the margins of error and how far we are still out from the caucuses When these polls were conducted it was more than three weeks leaks? These candidates are earth essentially tied everyone kind of hanging around between like sixteen and twenty one percent. That's it seems like in the I. If you if you average everything together in one sense close race heading into Iowa. That's almost par for the course I would occasionally but very rarely does blowouts in these caucuses. Seems like there's always something close brewing but the fact that there's four candidates bunch so closely is kind of remarkable it is. We haven't seen that. It's been a while since we've seen that on the democratic radic side on the Republican side. We kind of see that we saw that in two thousand sixteen with large field. We saw that certainly in twenty twelve. When when Rick Santorum Notched a very narrow victory out of Iowa but in on the democratic side it. It's been a little bit more clear cut in two thousand sixteen it was very very very close between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders but they were really the only do candidates. Martin o'malley was barely viable anywhere In in two thousand eight there was three candidates it was Barack Obama and and Hillary Clinton and John Edwards and there wasn't really a fourth viable candidate. You really kind of have to go down to the two thousand and four to find a race where the top tier or is this kind of crowded and bunch together and we did end up seeing some separation that yeah I was about to say in two thousand and four we saw big movement very late. Yes yes and propelling John Kerry to victory. We saw Dick Gephardt who had been viewed as a top favored candidate at one point in Iowa from neighboring Missouri. Hinder finish vision forth In that caucus. Oh I my message that I'm getting from both the polls and from talking to folks on the ground is anything really can happen here and it would take a lot to surprise me in terms of the range where these candidates could end up finishing it. It wouldn't while the this is this four-car pile up right now. It wouldn't surprise me if on Monday February third. We're talking about something that's a little bit more stratified in a little bit more clear cut and where. There's a a little bit more separation between the candidates despite that metal picture. What can we tell about about what's going on? What kind of movement has there been in the last month or so you is? Is the story particularly different in Iowa or New Hampshire. Some of the movement is is pretty consistent of course New Hampshire There the polls they are differ from what they did you. Nationally were. Joe Biden is the leader and Bernie Sanders is a pretty clear second place with Elizabeth Warren close behind judge farther behind in fourth That's not the case in Iowa when New Hampshire where they're all tightly bunched together that we have you teased at it. We have seen some movement people to judge it. Had in the fall surged to first place in Iowa in a lot of the polls it. We'd seen He is falling back. Some Elizabeth Warren had her surge a few months before that she has come back to the pack up up but notably. They've only come back to the pack. They haven't fallen through. They haven't fallen. Their candidacies are still very much alive to come out with one of the one top. Three tickets in Iowa Moving into New Hampshire. So while we've seen these candidates kind of surge in decline. We haven't seen any candidates kind of fall off and of course you know Bernie Sanders right there in the thick of this race for first place which actually in the second is going to bring us to to other topic of conversation tation segment puts the Steve. I WANNA I WANNA go back this bunching and and this movement everyone basically just kind of like getting pulled together around the twenty percent line basically suggest a really wild and interesting Iowa Caucus night to come on February third and not only because we don't have a clear sense of WHO's who's winning right now or who's GonNa be winning three weeks but because of the nature of the caucuses and the way Voters second choices might come into to play. The Iowa caucuses a really interesting Scott in the way they are conducted. It's not a traditional vote or people go into a voting booth they they show up on caucus night and there's a first round of voting and in that first round if your candidates are not fifteen percent you can then join one of the other candidates at fifteen percent. Now you mentioned these candidates are tightly. Bunched around fifteen or twenty percent. So they're all likely to be viable in most of the caucus sites unless things changed pretty radically over the next couple of weeks that means all the candidates who were below that level if they don't reach fifteen percent in particular caucus site in that initial vote their her supporters are up for grabs in the second and final allocation. So you want to be as a candidate Someone who appeals to Supporters of if people like Amy Klobuchar or Inter Yang or Tom Star of the candidates who have dropped out. Now people like Cory Booker Comma Harass. You WanNa be a consensus candidate to bring those people over in that second allocation that's really important and so it's interesting to look at some of the polls and see who are the top second choices as well and Elizabeth Warren one one of the campaigns that has kind of been most explicit about trying to be everyone's second choice and yet it's you know I it's not it's no sure thing. Just because of the vagaries of this process there was one poll right where she was seen. As these second choice of by far I think the most respondents in the poll but also most of those people were supporting one of the other top candidates anyways so when they kinda reallocated things looking just at the top four candidate she rarely gained anything. So it IT I. I thought that was a really good illustration of just how unpredictable things are going to be. Yeah that's absolutely right around in in both of the polls that we saw come out over the past week She was the top second choice in both a bolt polls of of Kind of all the respondents. But that's what you mentioned the if if your that second choice of people who like Joe Biden or Bernie Sanders or Buddha judge at. That's not necessarily a great place to be because if they're supporters If there there are enough of them in a caucus site to be viable fifteen percent. Those people can't move to another candidate right. That second choice question never ends up being no. It's only the people who are undeclared when they show up and are looking to be convinced. And maybe you're on the fence between two candidates and are waiting for that second round onto voting to to establish themselves with a particular campaign or it's people who support candidates who don't reach that threshold so for Elizabeth. Warren I and for all of these these top candidates it behooves them to kind of reach out not to supporters of the other top candidates but of two supporters of the lower candidates and undecided voters as we close out The final couple of weeks of campaigning. Here so Allie. I WanNa bring you in all this polling talk and establishing the really close nature nature of the race in Iowa for the first state to go kind of sets the table for a story. You were working on last week. which is that that seems like more and more in the midst of all this very close polling? We've seen some new movement from moderate house. Democrats especially freshman who had been staying neutral in the race who had been staying on on the sidelines coming off the sidelines and looking to endorse some of the moderate candidates running for president particularly former vice president. Joe Biden. Yeah that's right so this is a story. I did with Ferris in the Congress team. And we're kind of getting out this anxiety that some of these freshmen members have that now it is twenty twenty. This is an election year and these are people who've never run in a presidential year and so they're going to have something at the top of the ticket that they can't necessarily control and I think there is a fear that a lot of them ran as moderates there in a centrist candidates. And so can they still do that with a sanders are a warrant at the top of the ticket and they're having conversations about that and so as you were writing the story last week Biden had just gotten I think three battleground freshman to endorse him and then since then we've seen another three Democrats from battleground district endorse Biden. We've seen a Democrat in a trump district and staten island. Max Rose endorsed Mike Bloomberg It seems like there's a lot of other conversations going on with People Judging Amy Klobuchar sounding out some of these people. Yeah that's right so something. We found. We were reporting the story. Is that a mclovin Char. Buddha the judge Joe Biden have actually had these little conference calls with a swing seat Democrats. And they've kind of made a pitch on you know. Why are they most electable? What are you guys seeing in your district in in our kind of readout from the Biden? Call that a lot of people had been sharing polling. These swings freshman done pulling in their districts testing Biden head to head against trump. Maybe a warrant head to head against against trump and that biden had some unsurprisingly performed much better and this was a data point that made them feel comfortable and may lead to more people coming out for Biden or explain their thinking. Well what kind of districts are we talking about here. Are these swing districts in swing states our suburban urban rural. What's the what? What's kind of the mix of places? We're we're talking about boats. So Joe Biden had an endorsement Early in the month from Abbey thinking our and she's in a very kind of Obama trump more working class class rural Iowa district but then you also have endorsements. He's getting from people on these kind of like Romney Clinton districts that were affluent calling allred in Texas exactly exactly and they think that he appeals to both of those candidates nuts. Maybe what makes him such a strong top of the ticket. Well now. Here's a question for you. How much and actually? Let's leave. Abby thinking our aside right because I feel like Iowa is a whole getting getting an endorsement from an Iowa member of Congress as a whole separate thing but how much of this is are. Are these members thinking about. It's like I want to help push Joe Biden over the top. I'm going to do my part. And how much of it are. Do you think looking out for number one. I'm trying to think it's like this is. This is what I need at the top of the ticket or at least this is the preference that I feel like I need to show before my race starts in order to to to do best for my chances of reelection I think right now. They're really trying to nominate themselves right. So if like a Bernie Sanders or Warren secures the nomination they get to say well you know not my first first choice. I prefer to Joe Biden. I prefer to people to judge. And then that gives them some kind of moderate credential among voters I think maybe if we see like Bernier warrants start to really gain steam when Iowa. It's reinventing your Hampshire. Maybe well see them. Start to rush out to kind of boost Biden if that threat becomes Mario and then of course you know the situation. We've seen it play out in a little bit different context number of time. But I feel like that's just the sort of thing that that Bernie Sanders eats for breakfast right the idea that and warned to to some extent the idea that the establishment is coming for him. And you know let me just Dash Ashok quick email to my millions of followers saying. Hey can you chip in a couple of bucks to to help us deal with this dastardly establishment. Coming for us. Yeah I don't we were told the Bernie and more and we're not asking for calls with these kind of frontline or dams that they had not you know connected with them so I don't know that these tossing style looking for and maybe this is a fundraising point for that. That's interesting burning a Bernie. Sanders obviously doesn't but I feel like Warren kind of played a lot of that game. She raised a lot of money and and Campaign for a lot of folks in the in the midterms in two thousand eighteen navy. It's in the works and it just doesn't happen yet but I do know that some of them did have the polling specifically warned trump in their districts and in an it wasn't necessarily better than I felt more comfortable guidance numbers. That's interesting. Yeah I I. I'm curious what you think I feel like you know. Endorsements in are doing in less than ever in terms of actually moving votes. But that doesn't mean they don't send interesting signals. Yeah no certainly everything that these members do you. Both political and in in terms of their official duties should be viewed through political ends because The the these are the majority makers for Democrats. These are the people who are truly their seats are are truly in play in twenty twenty and so they are going to do everything they can do to protect them And specifically if they're going to meddle in the presidential race ace and get involved it is both I think to help. The candidate they see is best for them but also to send a signal to their voters. Back home about The kind of candidate they want them to be looking at when they go to the ballot next November and are staring at both the top of the ticket and that House race there and they see the name of Colin allred in a place where where Mitt Romney Romney won and then Hillary Clinton won And they expected a certain kind of Democrat and so regardless of the name at the top of the ticket these people WANNA make sure their images and their brands are intact. This is really interesting. I like this conversation we've got. We're looking at the views of the voters as reflected in the polls and got the party elites as reflected in in Congress bringing a lot of Nice things together. Here thank you both for for taking the the time to to join us. Thanks Steve Anytime. And thank you Allie. Of course and for our second segment this week we are going to dive into the wild world of impeachment trial trial. And we have with us here today. One of our expert tour guides is going to help us decode all of this over the next few weeks. A politico senior reporter. Darren Samuelson Darren. Thank you for returning to the NARC. Cast thanks for bringing back all right. So here's what we're GONNA do today. Darren we're we're in obviously. It's it's not uncharted territory but slightly charted we're Iowa we're in kind of a fifteenth century European explorer situation here and so what we want to do today is. I'm hoping you can basically just take us kind kind of chronologically through what is going to be going on in the next few weeks and we can start yesterday. Actually start on Wednesday when House Speaker. Nancy Pelosi named her team impeachment managers today. I'm very proud to present the managers. That was kind of the the step. We've all been waiting for over the past few weeks since that. Vote with this big delay. Yeah they are the prosecutors. They will be the people who will present the case before the Senate and try and convict and remove Donald Trump from office and they will be working from Material that they collected over the course of that impeachment investigation that everyone paid so much attention to last fall and ultimately into that House vote. We have seven impeachment managers and Nancy Pelosi has named Adam Schiff of California lead manager led by Adam. Schiff the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee and Jerry. Nadler's Jerry Nadler Chair of the House. Judiciary Committee determined the House. Judiciary Committee these two gentlemen Know quite a bit about this case and could probably recite uh anything that they need to know at the You know just off the top of their head They will be the leaders. There WANNA be hearing talking. The most there are overall seven impeachment managers on the on the policy team which is a smaller number than the thirteen that Bill Clinton's Republican Nemesis the charge that they lead back during the nineteen ninety nine impeachment trial. A lot of people thought back during the Clinton impeachment trial that there are too many house impeach managers at some of them were just not very good at their job and didn't really do a compelling case they they were kind of boring people are clicking off the television while they're watching and that there was a it was better to be more hone and so I think with Pelosi picking the seven that she has. We're going to be hearing obviously from CHEF Nadler but we're also going to hearing from Zoe Lofgren. Who is a fascinating story? She was a congressional staffer. Back in the nineteen seventy two. Seventy three seventy four investigation. Investigation of Watergate for Congressman from California. Who seat that she? I'll later took over. Who was on the Judiciary Committee and she served on mckittrick midday during the Clinton impeachment? And now here. She is on the trump impeachment. So you know someone who actually has that incredible line that goes through the three impeachments our modern era. You know there's only four impeachments three only volving presidents. That went all the way to to the Senate trial We're GONNA see VAL demings who is a former Sheriff from Orlando Florida Hakeem Jeffries who's a member of the the House leadership. Sylvia Garcia and Jason Crowe are two of the members who I think will be. Maybe we'll be hearing less from freshman freshman right all right so they're the ones ones who are going to be presenting the case now. The trial officially begins Thursday the sixteenth. Today they're gonNA swear in Chief Justice John Roberts to preside over everything but no arguments yet yet. They're going to be swearing in the senators and so on and then and then after that. It looks like the first thing that we're going to expect his words that will set hearts aflutter everywhere when they hear the trial. Briefs Oh boy I can. I can hardly wait Probably hundred plus pages of material from the the trump lawyers which will lay out their offense. It'll be the first time we're going to see anything from the trump lawyers on paper Presenting their rebuttal. It'll be interesting to see if they go. Fact by fact and try Ryan. Actually debunk this or is it. Just you know in giant hundred and forty-three fought saying fake news. You know giant hoax. But I think it's going to be the it's going to the former they'll be they're going to pick things apart. That is interesting. Then we're I'm GONNA see because we've seen the giant hundred forty three response from trump on twitter every day for the last few months and th this is going to be potentially more interesting they have Clinton model to go on. There's actually actually a Bill Clinton trial brief that was submitted in the in that impeachment case that the White House counsel's office and combined with the president's personal counsel David Kendall. They put together. This brief that took apart at the The Monica Lewinsky perjury charges. And so this documentary. They've been working on for a while. Now they will submit that. I think either over the weekend or into Monday then. The House the Democrats will submit their version which will probably look a lot like the impeachment report that the Judiciary Committee produced after the House. Vote on or maybe it was right before the house. Vote So yeah you'll have these two legal documents that will give sort of an outline of things you know. It's notable as well for the trump legal team remember. They sat out that entire house process. If they refuse to participate pat simple loan wrote some hundred and forty three font. You know responses in letters to to Jerry Nadler into shifts. Saying you know. Go take a hike. We're not gonNA participate because this process is not favorable to us. I think they feel you know. They're they're putting their words now down on paper and it'll be very interesting to see what they have to say that is very interesting and so Like like you said you know. This process is about expected to take about four to six days. Which people are GonNa be working through around the clock probably through the holiday weekends so that the main event can can start on Tuesday? And that's that's the arguments. Yeah so this'll be the last weekend for senators for a couple of weeks to go back home to rest up because at right after for the Martin Luther King Holiday on Tuesday. We'll we'll rock and roll and I think you know those briefs probably have been written already They're probably putting the finishing touches on them So yeah we get going on Tuesday and I'm sure there's GonNa be some pop and circumstance. This is the Senate you know that. I don't think it actually will start until probably the afternoon if the Clinton trials example I think it was noon or one. PM that they get started every day. So so you know we're going to have our mornings tonight. Leisurely read political playbook and you know just chill out and then boom things are going to get going. It'll be interesting to watch John Roberts on the on the presiding officer. Ah One of his biggest responsibilities. As the clock Clock Management William Rehnquist was renowned for has the presider in the Bill Clinton trial letting things go later than senators. Maybe wanted wanted it to go. He he you know he kept them around till six o'clock seven o'clock and so it'll be interesting to see if the Senate on that same Roberts who we should also add was a A former clerk for Mr run questioned and so there is this continuity between Rehnquist and Roberts and just going back and even further drop. Mr Rehnquist wrote a book three or four years before he presided over the bill. Clinton trial about the Andrew Johnson impeachment trial. So Mr Rehnquist was a student of history and So you know. I think that Roberts will know all of that history. Is he overseas sees this trial. And so yeah we we going. You know whether it's Tuesday or Wednesday. That's when the house managers will have their time to go and I think we're still waiting to see exactly how much time they get. It was three days of the prosecution in the Clinton trial and again this goes back to. They had thirteen managers in so thirteen. People got to speak and that took a little bit of time and they pick things through do one by one by one and like you had the the chairman Henry. Hyde of the judiciary committee actually gave the opening overview. So if that's the model Adam Schiff would do the same thing he would see these sort of overview and then they would maybe use each individual member to kind of go point by point on different aspects of it again during the Clinton trial you had Lindsey. Graham was doing the impeachment in precedence. Steve Chabot was doing perjury. La Bob Barr was doing perjury and obstruction and it was. This is the part where the senators are. You know basically supposed to sit in their seats and listen as the prosecution does their their spiel and it should be a big change for a lot of the senators and then of course trump's defense lawyers and we're going to get that roster finalized sometime mm-hmm sometime very soon But you know expected to be White House counsel Pats Baloney. Let's that is correct. Yeah political leaders from a couple of days ago would know who. The trump legal team is is expected to be We've reported it For a while. Now MR SIP alone. I think actually the proper translation. We'll find out very sweet and we will indeed did he. came on about a year and a half ago At the beginning the end of two thousand eighteen to take over as the White House counsel replacing Don mcgann who Had all kinds of the controversy following him but simply will be the lead presenter. If again the Clinton model is the best one Back in the Clinton trial The White House Counsel Chuck Ruff did give the opening statement laid out the case. It was a long detailed analysis of of why Bill Clinton was Was Not guilty and and I think if Cipriani follows that model. He'll go you know again. Help me he'll be sitting there on the floor at the defense table while the house managers are presenting their case. So he'll be looking straight across it. Adam Schiff if who his boss has been you know Calling all kinds of names for the last many months now and He'll have his two deputies Pat Philbin and Michael Per Rahu associate counsel is in the White House they are George W Bush administration veterans. Mr Pirker and Mr Philbin have been part of the White House. Counsel's office The start of the House Democratic leadership takeover in January of two thousand and nineteen. They were the ones responding to all of those oversight request. Telling the Democrats know they were the ones who were sitting in on hope Hicks his deposition before the Judiciary Committee objecting definitional question. That was being asked and they've been the ones preparing. You know. Kind of doing the LEGWORK forcet Baloney money for the White House. I'm Jay Secolo give me let me please finish this go ahead everyone knows sort of the president's quote unquote. TV lawyer the other TV lawyer besides three Guiliani. We'll be there as well. The rationale for that originally it was thought was the second cycle was not going to be a part of this process because this was sort of official they'll ask the White House of President trump in his official acts but because the Democrats have made this about the Muller investigation to some degree to in the Twenty sixteen election interference a larger pattern of behavior. They kind of opened the door for Secolo now step onto the floor to and provide a sweeping defense of trump That that he'll give and that could take two days three days. They say it'll take face. They think they're trying to move faster along. And so maybe they'll only take day instead of the three. That Bill Clinton Clinton did so at at this point in the trial. I think we get to the point. Where so far? Well we talked about things are going to be pretty scripted at this point once the the two sides are kinda finished presenting their arguments. That's when things could get a little more spontaneous and then at that point you know you mentioned Darren. The senators are. We're not allowed to speak during the proceedings but we could have a period of questioning after each team presents. Its case senators will have an opportunity to question the lawyers by submitting their questions through the chief justice. Yeah they'll put things down in writing Hannam to a page that'll be a number page sitting around him. Who will bring them up? In the chief. Justice would respond arches. Me would read the questions allowed and let the prosecutors or the The defense team responded. I should say while senators are not supposed to talk. They can't stand up and raise objections they can raise procedural points of order They can And there was a famous one early on the The Clinton example where Tom Harkin Iowa Democrat stands up and he actually takes issue with something. That Bob Barr Georgia. Republican was saying about how the Senate was the jury. We urge you to distinguish jurors in this case not to be fooled. This is how Bob Barr was describing the senators as members of the jury Harkin stands up and this is again in the middle of the opening presentation MR chief justice I object and I says I object to that use of calling a jury. We're actually a court to the US. And the continued continued use of the word jurors when referring to the Senate sitting as Trier's trial l.. On the piece of the President of the United States and asked Rehnquist to rule on that and Rehnquist in a snap decision agrees with Harkin and says yes this is this is a court. The the charges of the view that the senator from Iowa's objection is well-taken that the court the Senate is not simply a jury at his court in this case and therefore council should refrain from referring to senators jurors. It's actually not you. You're not jury. This is a small distinction. But it has actually carrying on you see In legal briefs even to this day in a lot of the swirling oversight cases that I'm covering they bring up that decision that William Rehnquist made in a split thank split-second interesting enough he was. He overruled the parliamentarian who was sitting right below him. Who who told Rehnquist you? You shouldn't touch this question. And and you know she just kind of dismiss what Mr Harkin is raising but instead rehnquist you know In a moment's notice made that decision. which apparently really upset Trent Lott at the time The Senate majority leader because he thought that it kind of disturbed the continuity of the entire process. He was he was really upset. But he didn't yell at Rehnquist he actually yelled at Allen. Who is the assistant parliamentarian? Who is sitting right in front of it? who had been overruled overruled I talked about this the other day and he sort of recalled this moment. We're rehnquist you know when the when the gavel came down at six or seven PM Rehnquist was out of the chamber. Went back to was went. Back is free. Gordon Freeman was left there to kind of take the heat on that. So you know there will be these moments where senators can step up and try to raise a point of order or try and get into things so you know but here in the context of questions yes they'll be handing questions to the patients who then Chief Justice Roberts will will read and and You know it could disturb the flow of things but it'll be interesting to see what kinds of questions people have and then after the questions we really get into you know we talked about getting a little less scripted. At that point at this point we really get get into what in my mind. I'm thinking of is the choose your own adventure portion of of the trial You know the the senators. After they finished question the loyal lawyers they will have the option to fire file trial motions in everything from motions to dismiss the case to motion to subpoena witnesses. And that's where things could get really interesting. Everyone's been kind of focused so much on this process which I think you know. She's probably can happen until the early part of February right around the time of maybe last week of January by the time we get through everything we just talked about. We're kind of at the end of January. Maybe early February so we're starting to conflict with the Iowa caucuses and the Union address. But yeah that's the point where there could be votes to dismiss which it doesn't sound like their votes to dismiss and there was a vote on the motion to dismiss back in the Clinton case there were votes on the motions for witnesses Ultimately they ended up with with three witnesses in the Clinton case and they were actually deposed in a closed-door setting Monica Lewinsky said Blumenthal and Vernon Jordan were the three witnesses that they deposed ben and I think Republicans back then then felt like they were kind of snookered into kind of accepting this the house. Republicans were they felt like Trent Lott kind of a tank trial by sort of just going with these three by letting them go. Closed door closed door and narrowing it just three House Republicans. If they had had their druthers would have liked Monica Lewinsky on the floor. You know answering this question. Senate Republicans we don't want you know. Discussions wins of of Salaciousness Oval Office. you know Shenanigans and so yeah that'll be a big question here because here in in this context we're talking talking about. How are we going to see on a witness on the floor? Are we going to see a left Parnassus a witness the John Bolton there are a lot of names of people that you know. I'm sure the House Democrats would like to depose oppose in public. That will be a question. Is it in public. Would it be. Would they be taking them behind closed doors and doing interviews with lawyers and then sharing the transcripts in the video for the senators to to watch or would that happen right there live on national. TV or what had happened on the Senate floor but they can close the doors and close-door so these are all decisions that will will be made in that period of time and again the Republicans Rand Paul now threatening if if the Democrats insist on the witness described in Hunter Biden. Joe Biden You know who knows would be fair game and then you know this thing could really go off the rails and we'll yeah the most distinguished body in the world might end up you know dealing with some of the same shenanigans of the Clinton era but in a slightly different context. Yep sounds like it and again. I've got my notes here. Obviously if they don't do any of this this part of the trial could take zero days and you can take seventy seventy you know who knows who knows it like choose your own adventure so after all that's done we're gonNA closing arguments that kind of speech itself that's GonNa last about a day and then here's how the trial ends comes. After the closing arguments we're going to go into deliberations the Senate is going to or at least in the last time the Senate when behind closed doors and they deliberated for three days and each senator was allowed to speak eight centers allowed to speak They later Agreed to let senators put the record remarks into the public record. And so if you look back at the Clinton and congressional record you would see eh those remarks in sort of an exhaustive way so determined if they do deliberate behind closed doors. Do they even need to deliberate. You know as ready to kind of wrap it up and move on. I'm sure trump will be saying let's go time to go and I think That will be a big question you know everyone will be watching to see what Mitt Romney Susan Collins Lamar Alexander are Ben. Sasse You know are any of these. Republicans really convinced by what they heard and are they going to try and bring their colleagues along to vote to convict and you know the idea of twenty Republicans actually jumping ship and removing president. Trump seems completely farfetched in this moment in time. Here we are sitting. You know on on on the middle of January Eh. But let's let's see I mean I I would have a hard time believing it but you know if love interview with the with Rachel Maddow and And then with Anderson Cooper continue to drip drip out and we learn more things you know just who knows how the president's GonNa respond again if like there's just so many intangibles that we just don't know but this is one of those days where I feel a little trepidation about putting airplane mode on my phone as we walk into the podcast and I was just going to have happened by the time we get out. I know remember during the impeachment of Bill Clinton. You know crazy stuff did happen. You know the speaker of the House. step down because his affair was outed by Larry Flint the hustler publisher and we had a major change in House Republican leadership in the midst of impeachment on the House floor. So I yeah this is going to be a fascinating. Culmination of what has been an amazing. Three arrived had already. Yeah and Darren. We're really looking forward to having having you with us the whole way to help us sort out what's going here. I love your commander. The history of the stuff. It's so useful. Oh thank you so much for taking the time to come in and take us through it a couple years of intense reading of all things impeachment. I I would Yeah I can talk tout a lot of different books but yeah thank you for having me and always a big thank you to our listeners for tuning in. Hey if you like this conversation with Darren. If you're interested in what on earth is going to be happening with this impeachment trial has that sucks up our attention over the next few weeks. We are going to be doing daily coverage of the impeachment trial here on the nerd cast special extra episodes. We're GONNA keep short hopefully about five or seven minutes every day trying to dig into the news of the day. Some of this interesting history that Darren others here politico know all about so look out for it in your nerd cast feed everyday the impeachment trial as that starts next week all right our producer. This week was any reese our senior producers Jenny Almond and our executive -secutive producer is Irene. Noguchi are illustrator. Is Bill Cookman. If you're listening to the show on Apple podcasts please favor and leave a review it helps new listeners. Find the nerd our cast once again. Thank you so much tuning in. We'll talk again next panoply.

Joe Biden Clinton Iowa Senate senator Bill Clinton Clinton Iowa president Bernie Sanders trump Donald Trump Judiciary Committee William Rehnquist Darren Samuelson Darren Steve John Roberts Allie Mutt Adam Schiff
Lolita and Linda's uterus transplant - an ethical, emotional, and scientific minefield (Summer Season)

Science Friction

37:07 min | 1 year ago

Lolita and Linda's uterus transplant - an ethical, emotional, and scientific minefield (Summer Season)

"This is an ABC podcast. Welcome to size friction Natasha Mitchell. We've asked some assays and of your end our favorite programs grams and twenty twenty people. I always thought of twenty twenty as the future will. It's here the future officially really is he goes last show. We looked at a sci-fi scenario where we outsource all childbirth to artificial worms. Baby Patches kind of portable portable pods. We can carry around on the outside of our bodies no more macy pregnancy. Why not just use technology? Today story suggests that that possibility might not be so far away Sorry when the later was fourteen she felt this strange pain in her middle So I went to the doctor. The doctor examined her but detected something surprising and went and got a colleague. For second opinion she was asked to come back for a more thorough examination. That put me to sleep and do an exam with a camera and when I woke got the doctor was sitting there with paper and pen and it was drawing and said that uterus can look a lot different from woman to woman and I asked him Well how does mind. And he simply said that. You don't have any you don't have a uterus now So at age fourteen in one thousand nine hundred four later was told for the first time that she'd been born without a womb fell like a free. I didn't know what I was always been told that a woman is going to get the period. You're going to have a baby and all that and always loved children and I always WanNa one was. I know I was heartbroken the day after I came home I wrote Ima diary. Please can somebody give me a eras which makes what happened to the later. Eighteen years later all the more extraordinary in the Lascaux we imagined a world where babies are created created in artificial wombs societies opted for portable baby patches instead of pregnancy that was all pure sci-fi of course what you'll hear today aw Israel frontier science transforming and infect creating real lives but providing all sorts of ethical questions to which a front in Santa for bioethicist Dr Nikola Williams from Lancaster University. So I suppose the uterus is different in that it's a symbolic organ of womanhood and that's why it's quite important to many women with absolute you try and factoring fraternity because they don't feel whole sometimes sometimes a and this potent symbolism of the uterus might explain why the later says she felt an inexplicable Shaima about the sacred. She carried inside her body. The condition she was born with is called Myra Catan Ski Cousteau Houses Syndrome. It's just one cause of absolute uterine factoring facility and just to meet boys what's difficult. I know that boys in that age doesn't think about kids but later just always felt like she had to let them know that she didn't have a womb. I mean you can imagine how awkward that conversation would have been talking babies with teen boys brace. But I've always felt the half to be two steps ahead. You all sisters reaction at the time when you afford Hamer Save. This news was really interesting. What happened tell us well? She said You can have my uterus. I don't want kit so you can have mine. How was Shay? This is your oldest sister. Yeah she was eighteen lawf- head other plans for the latest sister. She went on to have four children but her pledge to her. Little sister remained now attempts to transplant. One woman's the uterus into another infects her with the case of a pioneering transgender woman. The first uterus transplant took place in nineteen thirty for the Danish artist. Autists Lily. Lb You may have seen the film about lily called the dining shells and ugly search search. Never before it's why on the. Unfortunately the transplant fails and it causes her death. which is unsurprising given the immunosuppressants weren't even discovered until until the mid one thousand nine hundred seventy s and now is very little knowledge about proper organ retrieval and storage procedures but I use light ask scientists and surgeons more confident? I mean in the beginning. They thought we were crazy to be honest. Yeah they they thought we were not during this doctor. Laser Johannesen is a gynecologist. Obstetrician who heads up the Uterus Transplant Program at Bilo University Medical Center in Dallas Texas. But she started out as a member of a trailblazing Swedish tape latest in developing the procedure. So we started in in small animals. Like rodents sounds mice and rats. We did transplants in them and we had successful deliveries in rats and mice We went through phases where we try the surgery tree in in sheep and also in pink and then as the final step before clinical implication. We even did it in. Non Human primates just us to mimic the conditions with humans. As much as we could so in baboons yes in the boons- and what were the challenges as you develop that technique has he developed the procedure. I mean this season organ. Transplantation rejection of that transplant had uterus is a big issue. It seems like it's not that big of an issue that we thought it was in the beginning being but when we did the trust and the food was certainly challenging because but vigorous don't necessarily take medications as you would want them to so we had we struggled with rejections in the Brinson on medical administration but when it comes to humans it's actually looks like the uterus is is fairly resistant to to rejection and no one is also uterus due Tori Jackson so far when Lalita was nineteen she saw media reports about those scientists and their animal experiments and she even rang. Mets Brannstrom hit the team to ask. If I could help her. Yeah I don't know I think he was surprised and I guess it was just in the beginning of something but they were only doing studies in moss at that very early stage fast forward a decade. On by now Lalita had met and married her husband and she desperately wanted a child. The science had advanced dramatically to the Suedes had approval for human clinical trial and that caught the world's attention. It is an extraordinary development. Dr Av Kindle is a bioethicist Deacon University with a focus on reproductive technology. I'm a little concerned about some of the ramifications I'm affiliations of uterine transplants. Partly because it is quite risky all transplantation all surgery has its risks. Of course we have risked to donors if they're living in donors and we have the usual transplant. Risks are two recipients but what. We don't have the same justifications as we have for lifesaving transplants so so if you desperately need a heart transplant of course those risks have to be balanced against those benefits so a life saving transplant is a lot easier to justify in many many ways in the beginning when we did this animals a lot of the criticism we had was a assistive undoable. Can you do this in humans. You're doing it in rats. But can you'd humans so that was a lot was focused around the procedure itself and then it's kind of evolved into what's the risk for the donors is ethically correct. Put The people through this. That's healthy young give them inurance oppression and then now the latest thing is that. Is this doable. From from a cost is perspective. Who are we going to replace this procedure with WHO's not GONNA get access to healthcare because we pay for the uterus response so the ethics successive olds as the procedure has Throughout the last decade users transplants are difficult and thorny they are complex WCHS ethically scientifically socially you trust. Transplantation is quite interesting because it has a jewel status as both a transplant Blonde Anna reproductive technology Dr Nikola Williams who were centers around the ethics and economics of uterus transplants. I'm because of this it's the most it's expensive reproductive technology available and also the riskiest but that does highlight another really interesting thing about your transplants. They are the only temporary transplant. So all of the risks with rejection and the requirement to take anti rejection drugs that is actually a temporary state. But you will leave. The clinic either way infertile infertile again. And I think one of the issues I'm having with uterine transplantation is it might serve as a distraction to better so cues for infertility and the reason. I think it might be a dangerous distraction from the development of bioengineered wombs like or actually fixing the womb injury that might have happened to a woman that is preventing pregnancy is because when I v F was found to be successful work on actually unblocking in Philippians shoes One of the major causes infertility that. IVF does circumspect was actually abandoned for the most part so women are now dependent on an industry trey that they go in and pay lots of money for to go around their body rather than actually giving them the experience that they want and so back to that sweetie awaiting trial and Lalita story back in two thousand eleven the spring time. It was an article in the newspaper. Thing that they were reading to to take the the next step in try this on human people reached out to us. They heard about our animal experiments and we didn't we. We didn't advertise at all. These were people that came to us and we screen them including Lolita and her sister. I remember they were three sisters in that family on the older one wanted to to donate her uterus and she had already given birth to four kids of her own. She felt that she was done with her uterus so she wanted to mature little sister and that little sisters number one goal was to be able to carry her own baby for me is always been important to be able to carry them own tied adoption ought Sarah Gacy. Could well have been an option for later on her husband. Although surrogacy he's legally complex in Sweden I was dying inside this feeling like all the sheen within the the present and it is so destroying. You just breaking you down which makes the stikes very high. If it's one of these was to work this could make even more profound that feeling of despair for you but for me was important and we saw this loot honor. Sister was really really good couple so this was very early on essentially the part out of this incredible experiment. Yeah yeah in a way they work. How do you communicate that to them? Yeah that time there was even harder because because that was before we even had the first birth in the world so we did annoy. Were consenting them for. We didn't know what the results might be and they trusted us. They they wanted to go through this and we told them about the risk. which all them that this is? It's highly likely that this will not succeed that you will have the surgery and the uterus will never carry a pregnancy. You will ever get become pregnant but they anyways wanted to be part of this. Lalita was one of nine women. In the University of Gothenburg offenburg trial in two thousand twelve the first substantial human trial of uterus transplant surgery previous. If it's in Saudi Arabia in two thousand and Turkey in two thousand and eleven hadn't been successful so the first step in the process to source a uterus either from from a living or dead donor luckily LALITA head her sister. Maybe some crazy about for us. It was just like I was boring. A sweater from her sounds crazy bodies switch on natural. Oh uterus a sweater what's the difference. Factly t didn't really even had to have to have the conversation. It seems no wonder what it would heads ahead that conversation. I imagine that would be difficult at Har and Dan today is just so normal. She's the same on just a moment. I don't feel like I own her anything. You don't owe her anything no so for the womb transplants. It's not just the potential recipient we have to be concerned about the rights of the darn as well bioethicists with this is Dr Abdul. I'm concerned ethically and socially we've the kind of pressure that might be placed on say a mother or a sister to donate the uterus to a sister or daughter who is desperate to be pregnant. There's precious already exist for all live. Donors so do one concern of course and this goes back to the idea of sexual equality. We know that more mothers donate their kidneys to their children than fathers like we know this and we know that perhaps apps there's a social pressure on women to be more selfless and to donate In a way that might actually fairly toxic in this situation it. He's not justified by. You're saving the life of your child. It's you are providing the means to grow your own grandchild which is quite different in? Terms of outcomes comes talk seek why would why would the potential outcome be toxic if there is a successful pregnancy and a mother or sister has actively proactively voluntarily surrendered their own uterus to the price ISS if it's voluntary and informed then again it is the business of the people involved. I'm not here to tell people what risks are acceptable to them. It's toxic if it's coming from social pressure particularly if that's a very gendered. Nature non of our interactions with others are complicated and they occur within like a very tangled web of interpersonal relationships. So even if if it wasn't explicit the feeling of being coerced Magi more subtle. But still there yes I mean. It's very possible as well the that that won't be the case. And obviously there are ways in which we can minimize the risks of coercion and undue pressure. I'm Paul if that is by ensuring that we have very robust consent procedures. I had the luxury to have to donors because me and my sister had to Matt's had the same blood type and if we we we did but if we would end I always had my mom my mom would donate any to this. Is Our future uterus mini series. You're on science fiction on. ABC are in with Natasha. Mitchell and I'm going to come back to the question of using dead- diners rather than leaving a little lighter on because it rises really gritty ethical questions about the next step fella. Villa later at a husband was to undergo. IV If to Bichon they could create viable embryos together before who ceased to underwent. The whole Palaver of major transplant surgery. Finally the dike time me and my sister went down to Gothenburg the day before before we start we start with Jonas surgery and so started with her and I was still at the hotel and the donor surgery. You remove the uterus Chris together with the vessels that feeds on takes blood away from the uterus. And you also take part of the vagina and that's the structure you're put into the recipients. I oh I thought at the time has never passed so slow. It's almost the size of a hand because I am then. It's touched in the in. The body to the follow pins chips. And in a way to the oval race as well but we always leave over salary so the ones that produces hormones that the the women need up until the postmenopausal support for their that Burns and their cardiovascular disease risk and all of those things so we always leave first and then with future vagina back together. So it's it's awkward squirts say they look the same but they don't have the uterus anymore and the nurse was holding a hand so the last thing I remember her holding my hand is like sleep. Good scream well. And then we put the organize we look at it very carefully because we want to make sure that this uterus is GonNa is going to work and in doing that if we look at the uterus we look at the cavity which is inside the uterus and we look at the vessels and then we'll bring the uterus in touch it it's like plying he retouched the wrestles your touch regina them into place stitched into place and the amazing thing is that afterwards it looks like the uterus has been there forever so you lying side by side in the recovery after the surgery and she no longer has her uterus uteruses inside you How did that feel? It's amazing. So unreal I was so happy and and of course I a lot of pain but the the people is taking care of us was a beautiful the day I got. The Uterus Uh uh became whole as a person as a human being I I was. I wasn't hold before. How is in pieces? And we'll come back to the late and her sister in the recovery room but veep theory idea of transplanting. A uterus between two women ceased isil missile a mother and a daughter makes some people feel really squeamish they find it quite hard to imagine that a woman's is child could be just stated in the womb of their mother Nikola Williams and this is as a similar concern that they've had regarding mothers who have actor disorganized arrogance for their daughter. Rejecting has much of a rational basis he's a womb is wound. But there's something about it. Taking the William William Freeman Martha the womb that gave birth to you and then creating a child of European and justinian child in that very same womb. Well there've been a lot of meanings meanings according to the womb. History having there and so I think that perhaps our unease with transplanting. This organ stems from that. Perhaps let's come back to the leader and her sister recovering. After a big operations later was put on immunosuppressant drugs to prevent her body from attacking rejecting assist as uterus inside her and these drugs have their own side effects. That's why we try to minimize the time of of the uterus being in the in the person as much as we can because we don't want to expose them to unnecessary drugs so what we monitor is the level so obviously of the immunosuppressant and we also monitor cervical biopsies so we'd take biopsies from the uterus and certain time points to see how the uterus is doing what can go wrong At this stage have you had situations where the uterus or have you or other teams had situations where the uterus has been altogether rejected or has started to vitrified. I fought to die early experiments. That was done even before the Swedish trial in Saudi Arabia where they had an across the uterus meaning that the uterus started to die but that was due talk to the vessels and poor blood flow. We had rejection episodes. But if you see those rejection of sorts early and you do if you do the cervical biopsies you you can treat them and they go away that the fist uterus transplantation in the US in twenty-six day was unsuccessful to the uterus had to come out The one in Cleveland Clinic which referring to in two thousand sixteen. They had a completely different issue so they had an infection. They had a fungal infection that affected the CROFT. What risks do you communicate to the diners in the recipients about this whole procedure so we tell them everything we know but it's hard because it's it's a very limited knowledge? We have so far because we don't know everything. Is it too early to be doing these in humans. I don't think so. I mean we have very promising results and even if we have have failures on even if we have complications they're not so severe. That would make us not to the procedure when a transplanted uterus settles settles into its new home. It just seems to start doing what are uterus does. And in fact that's most spooked Lalita. Yeah I wasn't afraid to die I but I was terrified to get in my first period phys period. I guess because you've never had he wants to fool ever had one and he always so scared it's like it was supposed to come blood out of me. Would I know when it was going to come go into a grocery store and just pick out a pad that is amazing so much to choose so author so everything is amazing normal so they start with menstrual periods area. DHS about three to seven weeks after their surgery. The first time they're terrify is thought in the night before I was having a bad pain in my back in the arisen. I didn't understand what it was. Something was wrong because it's pleading and they think rejection and they call us and they they're horrified and We were in the beginning to now realize that it's just proving to work to the. US is doing what it's meant to do. It's supposed to do that so it's doing really well. Then after Serov at a functional uterus is not the desired in point here pregnancies so four months after the transplant it was time to implant in embryo. Would it work. It was touching guy for the later one two three embryos four five seeks seeks embryos lighter and then mom youngest sister were at our house and I remember that. I didn't WanNa tell them because I wanted my husband to be the first one to know so I was standing in the bathroom and was just crying silence. My husband were at work and after work he went to the gym and after Jim who went and seen friends so when he got home I was so mad mad. Because I've been waiting the whole day and three trimesters lighter ladies obstetrician gynecologist Lisa Johannesen. Jason Remembers it. Well we when the baby was born yes I was wondering him now. Thursday I call my sister. I was in the morning and I was. It's like. Yeah well I don't know if I'm peeing or if I'm leaking because the water was dripping water and and she started to go into Labor I I remember there. It was so many people in the in the surgery room and then I heard my son. It's a miracle every time you deliver a baby but these women the stakes are so high and you're live so closely with them and search feels like your family it. Oh so beautiful. He was perfect holding him for the first time. What was that like unbelievable so worth every tears every fear every laugh everything and it's been hard hard journey of course but I would do it in a heartbeat? How did you feel saying goodbye to your sister's uterus? You had had to have it removed. It was hard for a few seconds of felt like I wasn't allowed to to feel sad because in people I thought that I was ungrateful for the Sun. Had but he had nothing to do with that. You just add to to be able to have more kids. I dreamt about it but it seems I'm so so happy for my son Muster said that after the surgery she feels like more like a woman than she did before what what did she say that. I don't know she feels like she did this for me and she did if for the other ladies in the will to have an opportunity to to do this and she feels stronger. She feels more beautiful beautiful and she doesn't have her period anymore. Late is son. John is a happy active. Little boy now the fourth out of at least thirteen children entitled at last count to be just stated in a transplanted uterus tourists more. Babies are on the way. Dr Lisa Johannesen tells me and she says her Dallas team now receives hundreds of calls from women who want to donate right bay uterus to complete strangers that the ethical concerns about uterus transplantations. Run date as you can imagine. Okay so let's consider. For cases where it might not be altruistic organ transplantation already has created a market riddled with this incentives. There's a black market in the trade of organs like kidneys. Um with people say in in Eastern countries selling this big he'd needs to westerners in you you know in order to to survive to make ends meet and wonder if we could consider that the same might happen for you try the reproductive market. It's a big industry with a lot of desire deep desire driving. It definitely is and I think that the uterus is an organ the is one that would be a very likely candidate for exploitation bio ethicist. Dr Nikola Williams is not a vice logan. It's it's also won the after you've had your children you do not particularly need or might not want to keep any more and this is especially risk risk in low income societies so it could be the case as with kidney donation we have situations in which young women. I'm in our pressured to sell their uteruses to support their families. And the even we could find cases of the stealing of you try rats we've heard cases of of people potentially being sedated and having their kidneys stolen full the black market in organs organs and perhaps the same could happen with Terai perhaps so the uterus becomes a biological commodity on black market. I mean what do you think about that possibility ability where I think. It's entirely possible and I think that the only way to protect against it is through. Effective Regulation and Safeguards Lisa Lisa Johannesen. He's conducting the surgeries. is she concerned about the risk of illegal tried in Utah. Yes so that's always going to be issue. In organ transplantation and most host countries and most cultural settings now has organization like Yunos in America that controls all the transplanted organs. So you have to report to this this organization every transplant you and uterus falls under the same rules as any any other organ transplants. I don't think that uterus transplant. Maybe we'll have more potential than the other organs to be up for the black mortgage but butch for sure that's something we have to taking to consideration because count we take a cue from what's happening with commercial. surrogacy in countries like India for example where women are essentially selling their services as a surrogate to Western couples highly fraught. There's a perverse incentive in economic incentive for them to hand over their womb essentially couldn't happen with uterus was transplantations they sell. They will on the marketplace is. I mean I can't say that that will never happen because what we try to to do this. Only in centers where we are highly regulated. But for sure where they are suppose ability people will go into the market say have done in surrogacy NSA. I've done other organ. Transplants but Oregon transportation is in serious setting very regulated. And you transplant will be as well. It's it's it's fun. Decide that America is a serious sitting and heavily regulated but sorry Kasese happening. They end the same ethical questions around. surrogacy be raised about uterus transplantation Clinton's for example payment for example should a donor be paid to hand over their uterus in this procedure. That is usually in in most countries not legal to receive payments for for organ donation so suddenly altruistic donation only altruistic terrific. There is no repayment for organ transplant. What's to say that there is then? The legal legal system has to change because it is presented this procedure ager of uterus transplantation is presented as somehow movable Lewis Morally concerning than surrogacy for example but died the same ethical questions remain here about uterus transplantations. MORTH'S DIFFERENT WITH UTAH transplant. Is that the woman that is actually going to benefit from the pregnancy and the the delivery is carrying the risk of the procedure. But what about the risks to donate software. Will they have to undergo. He's direct me in order to hand over the uterus so some argue that dead rather than leaving diners would be less ethically fraught by with us as Nico Williams. So many people who've signed an organ donor own accord won't actually have considered ever donating may uterus. When they signed that caught people might know that relatives preferences surrounding and hearts and kidneys and livers and the extent to which they would've wanted their bodies recycled or used to save the lives of another the question of whether they'd want they uterus to be used to just state child for another person is quite different? Is it different. I mean it's a functioning organ and it's serving so to that extent isn't an for many people who view their bodies as something to be recycled a cold one when their dad and they don't really care about what happens to the Rogan's in that quite happy for them to be used to help people in any way they see fit then. It wouldn't be a problem but there might be people who are for example anti-nationalists who believes that the world is overpopulated. And who don't you want an increase in the world's population who might not want uterus to be donated when it comes to consent for donation after your you did do. We need to add another level to that form. Do we have to go back and find everyone that has previously said. Just take anything. Do you also mean take your reproductive organs bioethicists. Dr David Kendall argues. We need to treat uterus donations differently to other examples of organ donation. Its purpose is creating dating life rather than saving an existing person's life which I think is different. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's more or less valuable. That's for everyone to decide for themselves but I think it is different and if we look at the families of dead darn as they will often feel an emotional attachment to the organ as some. I'm sort of representation of their lost loved one. And if you try and imagine how would that family feel about the birth of an infant using the uterus of the lost daughter would would they feel as if there was some sort of kinship. There is that going to confuse everyone involved including the child and maybe won't and that's fine but if it it does I think we need to be thinking about that in advance. It's tricky though because you could just think of the uteruses Abaya bag absolutely beg in which to start a child. It's not a genetic offering. Its abegg absolutely but if it is just a bag then we have to ask why someone going through quite invasive invasive surgery just to have a bag so clearly there's something involved there what about the science here is A. Uterus take from did done as viable as one taken from a living keeping done better clinician with hands on experience so few cases done around the world. I think it's about fifty cases. Most of them has been done in living donors so so the deceased donors came later than the living one stood so we just now starting to see babies born after deceased donation. So we can't compare the numbers yet but potentially you can have better vessels if you use a deceased donors to see you can take bigger vessels on you could in a living donor because you don't have to be afraid afraid of injuring structures as close to the wrestles the Condo with a deceased donors. That you can't you don't really know how the uterus is working Yukon screen sonorous ESCO. Does you can do with a living donor. A plan the procedure the least onerous gonNA company comes but it might ally some of the concerns around coercion coercion of donors to donate a uterus issues around high meant etc.. Yeah but then again it raises questions on how you allocate the organs. So does he starner's you normally allocate them. After how sick the patient who's going to receive the organ is I mean how. How Carl from your kidney failure but these patients who's going to get the organ will they no one's more infantile and the other one? It's my field. Isn't it so many questions to explore here. And it's early he dies. This is a novel stages clinicians like laser Johannesen a tracking the children born via a uterus transplant very closely in body. The end mind there for sure. Historical and therefore population that we will follow closely. We're going to track them until they they going to college for in your sister's children and your little boy were born using the same uterus. thia cousins do you all think of their relationship a little. It'll differently because they were born using the one uterus transplant. It between you know the only thing we say is that they are the bag cousins him on on. My sister is back on because my niece was only five years old and to explain to her. We told her that I was going to borrow. Ro Her mom's baby bag was a year is how do you explain. Years to five year olds head cousins in Vegas because they shared a baby all a new one in the whole wide world. Because I've just read a science fiction novel with uh the whole premise is based on a future. Where where we no longer have babies inside us in a uterus? We actually just tight them entirely in an artificial womb which they call. Ah Baby Bag. Wow we were first. We were first with experts. Thanks so much to the leader for sharing her experiences. Thanks to generally and are spread the word about the podcast to Cultural Johnson. Spicer thing here at science fiction. Catchy you've been listening to an ABC. podcast discover Scudamore Great A._B._C.. podcasts live radio and exclusives on the A._B._C. Listen APP.

Dr Nikola Williams Lalita A. Uterus ABC Laser Johannesen Natasha Mitchell US Saudi Arabia Dallas America Utah Lisa Lisa Johannesen Myra Catan Ski Cousteau Houses twenty twenty Hamer Lancaster University University of Gothenburg Autists Lily Mets Israel
Welcome Joe Lockhart

Words Matter

37:11 min | 1 year ago

Welcome Joe Lockhart

"And. Welcome to words matter with Katie Barlow and Joe Lockhart. Welcome to words matter. I'm Katie Barlow. Our goal is to promote of Jek give reality as a wise man once said, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Not their own facts words, have power and words have consequences. Before we begin. We have an announcement Joe Lockhart has joined us several times over the last few weeks. And after every episode our listeners wanted to hear more. So we listened to your emails your tweets, your, Facebook and Instagram DM's, and we were able to convince Joe to join us as our partner and fulltime co host Joe or thrilled to officially welcome you towards matter. Thank you. I'm thrilled to be here. It's been a lot of fun being on with you guys for the last couple of weeks. You know, it is a great platform already. I was a listener before the coming on as aghast. And I you know, I do want to make note in pay homage to what Stephen a lease started here. You know, I know Steve pretty well from politics run into the party opposite from time to time at conferences and things, and he was a guy who instantly liked Madame probably ten years ago t'aime university at a conference Annelies. I just know from watching on TV, I never met her, but they have the same quality and their quality. That is important to me, which is the truth matters to them. You know, you can get into back and forth. And the, you know, the spinning that is inevitable and important in politics. But understanding what the truth is. And being staying true to it is a value that I hold dear. And I had something that I think Stephen Elise elevated in this debate on this platform, and so it's just an honor that continue with that under fall. I'm glad you said that I agree. My mother always taught me it's good to be grateful for where you came from. And I am certainly grateful to be sitting in a chair that a lease made professional and intelligent and fun to listen to sell. I'm looking forward to going moving forward. All right. So last week you had a column on CNN dot com, and it was called Republicans and Democrats are all mixed up on Muller where you write about the political strategy, or what should be the political strategy behind the public release of the report, and you cite the example of the star report and the political lessons from the nineteen ninety eight mid terms to say, quote purely as a matter of politics, the Republicans should be all four releasing the report and the Democrats should put up a fight. But a fight they actually want to lose. So how do the nine hundred ninety eight mid terms. How are they a relevant example? Everybody knows the phrase, it's not the crime. It's the cover up. I I really believe that most things in politics can be forgiven. But what the public won't forgive is. When you are hiding something from them. And right now, we're in a political situation where the Republicans are pursuing a strategy where they're pretending. They're. Releasing the report for doing everything they can said not have the report released. I mean, they could you know, pass legislation. You know, saying that it has to be released. They could the Senate could take it up. They're not going to and from political standpoint. I it's, you know, it's my opinion that once the report comes out people have a way of digesting it and saying and putting it in perspective. What's really scary to people is what they don't know. And what they don't know. Now is what's in the report? Now, I don't know it's in the report. So, you know, you you're making communicates giving communications advice based on an unknown is a is a pretty scary proposition. Look at nineteen ninety eight for example, there was an enormous amount of attention in the lead up to the delivery and a publication of the star starboard. Everyone wanted to know what happened. The report came out. It was a very painful day couple of days because all of the sort of details were put out there. Air. And then something happened people moved on they started looking at other issues. They started talking about other things. Now, we had a six month political process was house impeachment hearings house impeachment vote Senate trial and acquittal, but the attention that was given to that. You know, the cable news coverage raking in live to the networks that all calm down a little bit. I after the report was out. And if you just look at the numbers the day, the star report was made public President Clinton's approval rating was sixty three percent. The day was impeached. Three months later. It was seventy three percent the highest pointed ever got to during his administration, and the point is that it was this sense of mystery and drama of what we know. What don't we know which I think in politics is just as powerful and at times more powerful than what we do know. I think the public is. Is understanding and forgiving in this country. I don't think anyone looks at Donald Trump as a perfect human being. So I don't know that there's going to be something in the report that the public has now I can't possibly vote for him will just be one factor. And I think, you know, put simply they should just rip the band aid off and try to get this thing out and move on their pursuing a strategy on multiple fronts. Not just the the mower report, but taxes some of the things in the oversight area almost guarantee that this goes into next year that goes into the year he seeking reelection. And if the Democrats play it right that will be a, you know, a big positive for them. They could overplay it. You could see a repeat of nineteen ninety eight of overreaching, but I just don't understand their strategy now now one of the key differences between star and Muller's. Starr was appointed by a judge in his process was to submit the report. Through that. And Muller was under the special counsel. Rigs submitting a confidential report to the attorney general. So there wasn't at that time a period where the attorney general road review the report for certain grand jury investigation for sensitive sensitive information related to the intelligence community. And the like did you and your team at the White House? Go through kind of Corlett of process where you took time to review the report before it became public. So interesting story because there was some consultation that went on between the independent counsel's office and people who were involved in this case. But no one saw the whole report people were given, you know, you're in this report saying this is that accurate before it was public for was public. But the first time that we saw the report maybe there was a lawyer who got a copy under the table. But I don't think so was when it was released to the public. We had a very spirited. Debate between the political people and the the warriors leading up to that. Because you know, my point is one of the paper was we can't have this report go out and have to read, you know, however, many hundred pages, you know, it'll be two days later, we will have lost. And the warriors point went which was valid as in David Kendall who is the lead lawyer from Williams and Connolly made the point I don't wanna be fighting ghost. He said lawyers never want to write ten pages about something. You're not actually charged with because it looks like you should have been charged with that. I'm so it was a very principled. But a very spirited debate about a day before the report was scheduled to be released. The warriors came in and said, you know, we've been thinking about this, and we gray that we do need something, and they had because lawyers do this. They had already prepared something they said pob Akao and myself read this thing, and then give us like a. Five to ten page -secutive summary. So all I stayed up very late that night and did that and just took their work. So rather than read the report and respond to it. We issued our report I think a little bit before the star report came out or simultaneously. And that was our answer. We were able to think we were able to fight that day on the law and the politics on an equal basis. The most compelling thing in the report were the details or nothing we could do that people wanted to know about the sex. And that's where everybody went to first people who tell you. They started on the front page lying. They went to that section. They read it. But as we got past that our arguments stood side by side with the independent counsel. So compare that to now then so that the star report contained these salacious sexual details and were was primarily about the president's personal conduct. And Muller's report, though, nobody has seen it. Outside of the Justice department, presumably involves a whole different Bela. Hey, right. I mean, we're talking about a counterintelligence investigation here in sensitive information related to intelligence communities and collection methods. And so does that change the political calculus this go around? Of course, it's a different situation. I think the things particularly in the counterintelligence realm present a clear and present danger to our country, President Clinton's mistakes did not, you know. There was no sense that there was someone who could compromise our national security because of the mistakes he made so you have that element of that. But you also have you know, decisions that the president made while he was president. And I think those there's some similarity here on the whole structure of Justice issue. People have to make a judgment. Some people have already made a judgment. Some people have said is not for me to make. Judgment. We'll see when we say the report, you know, what the evidence is. But this does go to the president's behavior as opposed to the underlying threat to the country. It does go off on a tangent. Just for a second care. Yes. I keep talking about mistakes that the the president and his communication teams may here's the single biggest one rather than come out on the day of the the bar wetter and scream full exoneration. Why this is all about me? It's all about me. No one else matters. But me he should have come out and focused on Russia, attacking the US. He should have been ready that day with a new set of sanctions saying, thank you. Bob mower for looking at this getting to the bottom of this flat. Amir Putin lied to me he's gonna pay a price for lying to me because mommy, most important job is to protect this country. Instead, he did the opposite. He said the most important job. I have is to promote me. And to exonerate me. And I think they made a series of mistakes that was the biggest one so the danger of overreaching for the Democrats. Here seems pretty clear what do you think the real downside is for Republicans the sort of lockstep staying with the president? Will we will get over this affliction of Migo bringing everything back to nineteen ninety eight but not over yet elephant. Yeah. The Democrats during this time didn't stand up every day and hold a pep rally for the president one of the most searing days for me. And all of this was Joe Lieberman announced. He was going to go to the floor and give speech, and we didn't know what he was going to say. And he wouldn't tell us what he was going to say. And there was a very real possibility that a senior guy was going to call on the president to resign. Well, he didn't say that he said the president had behaved Hoernle and should be censured which at that point the president agreed with with these Republicans. You don't even have that. There was not a sin. Republican who came out over that first weekend and said the real enemy here is Russia. Not Bob mower. Not Democrats not you know, whatever the political. And you know, they are so cowed right now, by the way, Trump has reengineer the Republican electorate that they've become impotent. The danger is the public is going to look at Donald Trump and say, well, not only do we nothing you're fit for office anymore. We don't think your followers are either. And they might even decide. Well, we like Trump because he does all these things and he's unconventional begins Don. But all these guys what what did they for beyond set saying, you know, how great trumpet? So there's not equal risk. There's less risk when you're in the minority. So I would say there's very little risk for House Republican right now. And there's a lot of risk for House Democrats, and I'd reverse it in the Senate, which is for Senate Republicans there is risk. Senate Democrats, there's not power brings responsibility and that in and of itself means you have political risk. So let's apply that to twenty twenty. Then isn't it easier for Republicans in the house and the Senate running for re election to just memorize the phrase, no collusion? No obstruction than to have to worry about all of the details. That may or may not become public in the report, very effective strategy. If there is no collusion, and there's no obstruction. And until we know we don't know. That's a problem. It goes to the heart of any sort of communications or political strategy. I wrote a piece recently where I compared the the bar letter in the reaction to mission accomplished, and George W Bush because here's what happened which is when you declare total unambiguous victory any small defeat becomes a huge defeat because you declared unambiguous victory, and my guess is. I don't know what we're going to see in the report. I haven't read the report. But my guess is we're gonna see things in there that don't say total exoneration of the president. This was all crazy. This was all witch-hunt. There's nothing to see here. I think they'll be some things to say. And rather than judging it from a perspective of it wasn't as bad as these other things, they wasn't what some Democrats said. It was we're now going to judge against total exoneration. Right. The president said no clues obstruction bars letter did say, you know, sure report does not exonerate hands. And I and I think bar covered himself there. I can't even begin to get into his motives because I don't know what they are. And what he was doing. Because what he thought was right or what he thought he was doing for the president. Or what he thought he was doing for this segment of Justice. I don't know. But where you started. The question was should Republicans? Just go out and say total is on array Shen. No, you know, and no collusion notion of Justice. And I guess that's a pretty bad strategy because it's so easy to poke holes in that in some ways collusion's easier because I think it's a little more cut and dry. I have no reason not to believe bar when he said that Bob mower did not find a chargeable offense in our collusion. But if I'm a democratic had major, and I'm running against a Republican some district who screaming, no collusion, and I put up a picture of that. Meeting in Trump Tower with the Russians I think I could create a little doubt about what collusion is a lawyer more than an ad. Well, there's a little in front of a jury. Yeah. There's a little crossover here. And it's it's, you know, if if we could think of a nice voice dealer, Latin word elections. We'll see what we'll see what. Standard the American electorate wants to apply beyond a reasonable doubt or preponderance of the evidence. So there seems to be split among Democrats on how aggressively to pursue a subpoena of the mullahs report and oversight in general. So as of last week, while the House Judiciary committee voted twenty four seventeen along party lines to authorize subpoenas for Muller's report. Chairman Jerry Nadler, had not yet issued them is chairman Nadler, taking your advice. Well, I think chairman that lers taking his chief counsel's advice here, and I'm going to admit up front. I did not go to school. But I watch a lot of cable TV. So I know the well, it's the same thing. It's the same thing. In fact, it's cheaper. It's a lot cheaper my understanding from talking to and watching some of the legal experts is that a way you can fight a subpoena is an effective way to find a subpoena as if you didn't go to every way to get the information some other way. So I think that getting the authorization and then going back to bar and the Justice department of saying, okay, let's have another conversation about this. How what accommodation can we reach is all about setting up an almost inevitable legal fight. If they just, you know, drop the subpoenas. I think that far Justice could rightly come back and say they didn't use every opportunity available to themselves. So I think that's a legal decision rather than a political decision. Well, well. The what happens before the next episode of words matter, but I think the bottom line for right now is everyone should just hurry up. And wait. Well, someone sent me an Email earlier today and saying I'm asking a whole bunch of people. How are you going to read the more report when it comes out? You know, you're going to like go to the back and see if your mentioned just gonna watch TV and I answered honestly, I just said I'm gonna get a lawn chair. I'm going to get a cooler beer, I'm gonna go sit at the bottom of Ken Starr's driveway. Read it. And take some trash out while you're while you, well, you know, he takes the trash out. But that's you know, I'm sure we'll have a chance to chat. That's good. All right. So moving onto the next topic talking about the president's tax returns. It's talking about house committees also last week ways and means chairman Richard Neal using a little known provision in the federal tax code from nineteen twenty four believe formally requested that the IRS handover six years of the president's personal and business tax returns. So does the same political calculation that applies to the mall report apply to Donald Trump's taxes here? I think it's slightly more risky for Democrats on the taxes than the mole report in the polls will tell you that I you know, there's there was one poll that had eighty percent of Republicans wanting the mole report released. I don't think he'd find eighty percent of Republicans wanting to Texas released, but the numbers are, you know, they're very positive in terms of the public thinks he should supply the taxes. But I think there's because there's more risk. There was. It was imperative that they went about this carefully. And I actually think chairman Neil did this. Exactly, right. He was under a lot of pressure to on day one. You know, go issue a subpoena go after and he had a bunch of lawyers build what I think is a really strong case. Again, I'm not a lawyer. But I watch a lot of cable TV, and it's not as it spans of as people thought. And it's you know, if you if you read this very narrow paragraph in the wa it's pretty straightforward that they have the right to see them. So I think the public wants to see them so little bit like the star report if the star report was sex porn this financial porn. Everybody wants to know. Everybody wants to know is the guy rich is not really rich. Does he pay his taxes? You're not pay taxes. And boy, you know, with all of these things going on SDN, y what clues can we get? So I think it is riskier. Than the more report, which I think has no risk really for Democrats. But I think today they've that chairman AL as has done it. Right. I'm glad it's chairman Neil. And not one of the more hotheaded members, you know, who might have gone off and screw this up. Well, it's interesting that it is chairman Neil who himself has not released his tax returns. But he is asking for six years, and my understanding is that he's asking for six years because the IRS recommendation is that you keep tax records for six years. But he's also doing it under the auspice of looking at what the IRS does or what the processes of auditing a president in office his reason for doing it. So he says is to see how auditing president goes, basically. So I just question maybe the six years since the president's been in office for two wide we need to see the four before that unless there may be some political motivations to that. We're not talking about. I'll talk about him. There are political motivations. He do you think that'll square? I mean, I think if the president had come out in two thousand fifteen and said, my taxes, and none of your damn business. I'm never going to release my taxes. I'm an American citizen. I have a right to keep them private. You are never going to see them. He wouldn't have lost a single vote. And he wouldn't have the problem is now what he did was lie about it to say that all of the crime. It's the cover. Yeah. Exactly. He said all of these are under on it. Well, that's not possible the standard that people are have been doing over. I don't know the last decade or so is ten or twelve years. It is just not possible that all twelve of the individual returns over the last twelve years, they may have all been audited, but they can't still be under on it. And so he lied about it. And now he's getting nailed by his own lie. And again, I think if he'd come out and told the truth at the beginning, which is none of your business. This would be. Wholly different thing. But we're going to find out quickly without revealing anything about the his personal life or his taxes finest situation that he's not under on it. And that is the opening for the Democrats to say, well, why would he lie about this? This is a political conversation not a legal one. If there's something you're hiding you lie. We want to know what you're hiding. And that's something. I think people get well, the legal conversation goes if you live out something you're in bigger, well and. Is involved. Yeah. And that's there there in lies the difference between politics and the law. There are some overlaps but not allowed right? So while talking about one legal aspect of this the the next subsection of that part of the law, you'll find that the president of the United States can request can also request any tax payers information. So unlike the congressional committee chairs, the president has to state reason when he does this should that worry Democrats is that a fight that could also backfire I don't think so I think anyone who's sitting in office who's you know, who's got a tax problem that they're hiding. I don't mind the president outing them, they got no reason to be in congress. I think most of the Democrats have either pledged that running for president of either pledge to Royster taxes of already released them you answered my next question. It's for one. But I said, the Democrats the the other one isn't a democrat. So that's that's okay. But I think by. By time of the first debate. Anyone standing on that stage? We'll have released their tax returns. And that's a good thing. Okay. I think most of I know there was at least an article about how all the the women at least had had released them or at least a lot of them including closure. And I believe Warren and also Senator and jewelry and Jilib Ryan. But I hadn't heard of any of the men folk if they had released there's yet or not, but you're saying they most of them have. Well by have pledged to release it. And I think I, you know, as a political strategist, I wouldn't let my candidate go out on the stage in the first debate having not released it because there's no answer. There's there's absolutely no good answer except for the answer. Donald Trump should've used well that answer still work. You think you think somebody will try that one this go around? I don't think any of them have the have the kind of back story that Trump had Trump was on that releasing because I'm biggest m- big businessman billionaire, and they're sensitive stuff in this. I think the the big issue among the Democrats running and the embarrassment will be how poor they're wealthy when we get a look at the tax returns. All right at the end of last week after several days of intense controversy over physical contact that some women said was unwanted and made them uncomfortable potential presidential candidate and former vice president Joe Biden posted a video saying that he would be more mindful of personal space and. That was after speaker Nancy Pelosi said Biden's conduct was not disqualifying suggested that Biden should join the straight arm club as she called it, which sounds brilliant. Just pretend you and I have a cold. She said, so what do you think Joe should the vice president listen to the speakers advice? I think it's going to be hard for the vice president. But I think the video showed you how seriously he's taking the issue. There's multiple pieces to this. I want to sort of there are tied to take a minute and multiple videos now, multiple videos, go with Biden first. And then when I think is the bigger issue. I think the Biden camp initially underestimated how big a deal this was but within four days got it. Right. And they did what was the best thing which is used the the best asset you have your candidate talking to the camera unscripted. Here's what I'm going to say. And you trust me. You don't script Joe Biden, you could have written something, and he's not even gonna look out. He's going to tell you what he thinks. So I think that he has addressed this in a way, I think it's hard for him on a couple levels because he doesn't he he believes that it's part of his showing that he cares about people to be physical with them. But I think you know, I think the last month or so has taught him that people don't always appreciate that. Is that a, you know, serious character flaw? I don't think so. But how he responds going forward? I think you know is a test. I had an argument with someone this week who is on television calling it a crisis for Biden. And I said it's not crisis its test. And it'll become a crisis of fails the test I think so far he's passed the test. Now, he also made light of it in a speech. And that's Joe Biden. I'm he's going to give you for every five great things. He says there's going to be a gaffe. And he's a little bit like Trump. He's not someone you can script closely as the only comparison I'd make between Joe Biden and Donald Trump. But I, you know, I think that is a fair comparison, and he someone who works off of instinct. So you know, we'll see how he does. And you know, it really doesn't matter. What I think would you think voters will decide there appears to be a lot of support out there for Biden. But we'll see this, and you know, the presidential campaigns aren't series of tests you fail to many of them you're out. There's there's no gentlemen, see in a presidential campaign. The bigger issue though is and I and I think it's fascinating. We normally look at social change looking backwards, the civil rights movement. We had great perspective on it as legislation was being passed. And we really only fully grasped the changes that were going on in the country looking back in a historical perspective. Because people didn't know what was. Going to happen. And it happened over a long period of time through whatever combination of this new world of internet and social media, and you know, the metoo movement, we are creating new social norms in real time. We are watching the lines being drawn as they're being drawn. And that is a really good thing. Because it allows everyone to contribute to it. And you know, as a as a father of two girls who has four sisters and with many nieces and grandchildren. Hopefully, coming along the way at some point if it takes Joe, Biden screwing this up to make sure that this sort of behavior that a woman's right to be comfortable is protected, and it isn't you don't get protection until you've surface the issue if that's what it takes a price worth pet. And it's a price worth paying no matter who the politician is. You know, there's still a lot. Out of debate within the Democratic Party over our Franken, how Franken was a very effective Senator I thought very good guy. And I think on the whole a good guy. But it turns out that he had a number of women eight credible allegations against him, including people who worked in the Senate, and that's disqualifying. And it has to be disqualifying to make the change because if you just give someone a slap on the wrist sends the message to the people doing the harassing that. Well, I'm gonna keep doing it. But when people's lives get blown up whether it be Harvey Weinstein or west Moonves than people know they have to change. And if they don't change their character career is at risk. So that's more important than at least more important to me than whatever happens to Joe Biden this week. You talked about the support that's out there for Joe Biden right now. And that there he's been polling while there's been a lot of support for him. He has quote front. Her status, and I was reading a piece earlier this week saying that what's happening to Joe Biden right now is just an evitable product of this political process that we're going through in trying to pick a democratic nominee and he's the front runner. So he this is going to be the narrative that starts to get built around him. And it happens to be related to this type of conduct because this is where we are right now. But this type of thing would be inevitable for the front runner at this stage of the game. Is that right with your political experience? Actually is right. The the best place to be I wanna get breast. Coverage is someone who is no chance of winning because then you get to say, whatever you want and people think you're brave who is that right now who do you think that is what friend do I wanna lose? I'll I'll I will make a historical reference. And I am trying to remember whether this was I think it was nineteen eighty four nineteen eighty eight by Bruce. We're out of the ninety s Bruce Babbitt, the former governor of Arizona was running for president and my good friend. Mike McCurry was his press guy. Babic got up every day and spoke the truth, and everyone, you know, made such I mean, they loved him if it was eighty four it was been Mondale, and we'd get up and say something similar, and they tear it apart. Like, how are you gonna pay for this? And you know, we all the stuff, and if you don't have a chance of winning you don't get it. And there's a little bit of Donald Trump in this people didn't vet him as soon as they might have. Because they thought he's he's just a crazy wack job. You know? And he's he's entertaining. And let's keep pushing them because people like to watch them. So there is an inevitability about that. And if you're looking for silver lining for Biden this. This was an an an interesting case study where Joe Biden has all these deep relationships with people in the Democratic Party. There's no one who's been in the party who's an activist who Joe Biden hasn't done some kindness for in the over the last fifty years and this allowed everyone to come out of the woodwork. You can't not look at any magazine any newspaper any Twitter feed without some in this case some woman saying this is what Joe Biden did for me and my family at this time. So as a as an attack you'd rather never get attacked, but as the front or you're going to this isn't the worst because it did allow him to surface the character issue and away that highlighted the best part of his character. And if he gets the nomination, that's he's gonna run on the fact that America can only leave when we're true values in our character. And the current president does neither so. Again, it's a little bit of a silver whining and another wise. Stormy week. All right. Well, that is all we have for you for this week. We will both be back next week. Now that you are officially on board and looking forward to it. Thanks for joining us. Thank you. And finally fifty one years ago last week on April third nineteen sixty eight the night before he planned to lead a March protesting the treatment of sanitation workers in Memphis, Tennessee, the Reverend Dr Martin Luther King junior gave one of the most moving most poignant and most important speeches in American history. Sadly and tragically it was his last Dr king explained why he had come to Memphis quote. The issue is injustice. The issue is the refusal of Memphis to be fair and honest in its dealings with its public servants who happened to be sanitation workers quote as he had done throughout his career. Dr king cited the words of America's founders and held us as a country accountable. For those words. Shoot of what you're saying on paper. Live in China even Russia totalitarian country. Maybe could understand some of these illegal injunctions. May I understand the the certain basic, I commend privileges because they haven't committed themselves to that over that. But some Iran. Of the freedom of a similar somewhere. Rare the freedom of speech. The freedom of press. Read the greatness of America is the right to protest, right? So we don't let dogs. A water hoses turned around. We aren't gonna let in junction around. Dr king. Understood the importance of holding America and Americans accountable for our founding promises. He firmly believed we were exceptional as a country. But that exceptionalism was dependent on how faithfully we honored those founding commitments, Dr king told of the long and difficult struggle ahead. He knew the dangers, but he also had a deep faith that Justice would prevail. So this week. We give Reverend Dr Martin Luther King junior the final word. What? We've got some difficult days ahead. It really doesn't matter with me now because I've been to the mountaintop. Anybody? I would like to live. Along life long. Has explains but I'm not concerned about that. Now. I just wanted to do. And he's allowed me to go up to the mountain. Look over. See the promised land. I may not get that with. No the night. We people will get to the land. Tonight. I'm not worried about anything. I'm not fearing any man. Have seen the glue. Thank you. For listening to words matter. Please rate and review words matter on apple podcasts and other Todd casts providers.

president Democrats Donald Trump Joe Biden Senate Muller President Clinton Joe Bob mower Russia chairman vice president Joe Lockhart Trump Ken Starr America Jek Dr Martin Luther King Justice department
Key impeachment witness John Bolton summoned by Dems

The Beat with Ari Melber

44:56 min | 1 year ago

Key impeachment witness John Bolton summoned by Dems

"Testimony emerging from the trump's staff are all about the Ukraine call and something special we've been working on we're going to go inside these new rules for impeaching trump that's my congress preparing for tomorrow's I ever floor vote on impeachment issues Democrats also calling a key witness from inside trump's inner circle later tonight new reporting on fall on their face that's why we keep seeing people report into testify tomorrow's vote goes further as I'm GonNa get into later tonight it forces president trump into this debate over the details and if impeached into a Senate trial about the details let's be clear tonight if President Donald Trump goes on trial he will be the quote details by demanding that everybody the diplomats the army officers the whistle blowers everybody be prevented from testifying they failed on that strategy anytime but note the statement you just heard there today contradicts Donald Trump's White House policy on this entire battle the policy has been to avoid stuck defending the details which may be why tonight all of a sudden he appears to be pretending that that reality forced upon him is I case including bringing up Biden's more than once tonight we are on the cusp of the next phase of this impeachment probe Democrats getting ready to tackle the first official vote on impeachment Oh says he welcomes after Republicans the House have been criticizing the process I'd rather go into the details of the case rather than sort of choice he's making I'm joined now by Natasha trainer covers national story for Politico David Corn Washington bureau chief for Mother Jones and former US attorney during those key notes of the call itself Vin men telling Congress he actually tried to correct the White House notes when they cut crucial words which could be damning which moved closer to the rule setting out the public hearings where Americans may hear directly from these witnesses themselves and assess the details of this case against trump which the president the very resolution that will lay down those official new rules for potentially impeaching Donald Trump article one of the constitution gives the floor vote tomorrow yes so the testimony that's been given so far by State Department officials Pentagon officials White House officials has it has committed crimes and Misdemeanors Congress continuing these investigations today interviewing two more witnesses in the impeachment pro about Giuliani's shadow foreign so you know he told Congress the mechanisms that Ukraine plot and he's also uncork some very new substantive suspicion of the White House if you follow this story and you're familiar process it's not an open process all of the process that I hear you all arguing about doesn't address the possibility that this president rush says processors good but I think you ought to look at the case and the case is very simple it's quick it's so quick look at the case now the president can change his and remarkably consistent with of course the exception of Gordon Sunland the US ambassador t you now everyone has pretty much testified the same thing that White House aide too it was some of the alleged cover ups this may not surprise you but it is big and bad news for trump because Mr of inman has given a detailed accounting of this other aspect of the alleged cover-up White House or White House meeting with the newly elected Ukrainian presidents Alinsky as well as US military assistance aid to Ukraine was contingent upon Ukraine launching these Oh above Bolton the news comes as the House of course is preparing its first ever floor vote on impeachment issues that's tomorrow and at this very moment members are still debated he Giuliani and Kurt Volker the envoy to Ukraine were pursuing but what Democrats seem to be doing now is they are focusing all of their attention on this Ukraine scandals part of the the right to investigate the president and we are taking responsibility seriously and if you think this is fair this is not fair at all in my view investigations into the Biden's PRISMA and 2016 interference so what the Democrats are hoping to do now is keep up this momentum by continuing to call witness the White House against doing this now right now we don't know his response yet because this is a brand new summons will he tried to avoid or delay or narrow the deposition he certainly a big fish impeachment inquiry because they know that it's the simplest story that they can tell to the American people and according to every former prosecutor I've spoken to when you're telling the simplest story then you're ultimately be impeached I'd be surprised at this point that if he doesn't end up being impeached I mean you have enough Democrat support for the Democrats no longer is new tonight in as soon as next week now Bolton is the man who reportedly said he didn't want to be part of a quote drug deal in Ukraine plot and says that he basically was warning Eric beating the the opposition the story simple David and the story has a lot of evidence drawn from people who are trump loyalists policy. You're seeing again that familiar sight now these dramatic arrivals as they go into the depositions meanwhile reparations continuing from Ari Officer Edmonds tests what I can tell you is investigators have been moving up the chain and they're getting closer to Donald Trump's inner circle which is why we're hearing about the summoning of these key age there aren't many people left when says who can further corroborate all of this but so far as I mentioned the only outliers seems to be someone who says that no one raised alarms internally about the back channel John Bolton these are trump people when you look David as expert on Congress at the vote tomorrow does that make it significantly more likely that Donald Trump Tasha mentions Mr Samland may have cleaning up to do or may disagree with others but there's army officer diplomats appointed to key positions by trump joyce vets a good evening everybody the talk show what's your reporting finding about what they're learning on the hill and how that drives the heat for these these teach me prob- I'm talking to you right now about former trump national security adviser John Bolton and they're not mincing any words or wasting any time they want him the the fall back position is is going to eventually be well yeah maybe this wasn't so great but it's unimpeachable that's eventually where they're going to land the Republicans he fights over that and maybe out of the State Department is opposed to the White House they can pry some documents halley some personal records but the evidence is pretty overwhelming there was just skated round the holiday season Joyce so I think David makes an interesting point there about the timing but really talk about if you will do me a favor though and so it's your trump keeps talking about substance now the Republicans keep saying there's nothing there and then we don't take up any sort of serious trial proceedings should they occur in the Senate until after the New Year prosecutors hate Christmas juries they're very forgiving for Democrats to impeach and Natasha's right that people love a simple story and the simple story here is bribery or extortion a quid pro quo works into the Democrats favor here is if there are articles of impeachment which are more or less the equivalent of an indictment as we enter into the holiday era seulement there's misconduct there's a bribe and Democrats seemed to have finally found their storyline that simple but compelling one to that point David it is happening in front of our faces with trump so often he does this in plain sight and then says well there can't be anything wrong because I did it for everyone to see but here there's is getting bogged down in court decisions Boeton has been called but his deputy who was called last week refused to come a Monday citing a why does solicit investigations into domestic political opponent soliciting investigations into domestic political opponent I don't think that would be an accord who reluctant to move in this direction the evidence which is mainly testimony at this point in time we don't have a lot of documents you know they're they're trying to get that and they'll one quid pro quo there were three quid pro quos to White House meeting the four million dollars in military assistance and the Javelin missiles for which trump was trumpers. Whatever I mean trump's strategy here's to smear smear smear anyone who speaks to this but we see these career dedicated public servants who've been told you people who work in the administration who aren't directly implicated in this also perhaps like some Republican senators don't really want to be on record defending everything that has been basically admitted with or our values David Yeah you see a lot of these career public servants they call them deep staters a result in December would likely be tinged by the spirit of the season but to the point that you took originally are a there compelling reasons and so if that's where they are the Democrats are certainly going to go ahead and impeach the real question is the timing how long is it going to take public hearings some of the stuff and in some instances not to testify still going up there and testifying because why because they saw what went on or they so part of what went take a look at trump's nominee to be the ambassador to Russia it's ever appropriate for the president to use his office or not trip here that's being adjudicated now in federal court how long will take to do all these things and how long it would take to get hearings and actual vote in a calendar that's very there's a shadow foreign policy run by a political operative of the president to get political dirt to benefit the president you know career diplomats know that stints in the trump administration you know people like George Ken who was just starting the first year of a nine year tenure the State Department who was dealing with Ukraine issue ace where you have a lot of not willing witnesses but I think eager witnesses want the record to be known and Natasha go ahead he's there is someone who is expected and of course legally obligated to tell the truth about whether this plot was going down yeah and John Bolton were told wants to pursue opportunities in the private sector timing of course is very notable because he's due to testify before congressional committees about Ukraine but it's important to note that these these people news I mean he testified in part I'm told because he wanted to show to the future people that he was going to work with that he was an honest broker and is wrong and whether the whether it's legal or not they know it's wrong and they don't WanNa fall on a sword for something that is so beyond the norm and then might actually even be I was just GonNa say that another thing about that is that a lot of these witnesses have long careers ahead of them and they don't want to be forever tainted by the illegal they don't even want to hide behind the White House order not to testify they want to testify and they saw what happened to the ambassador you you have out of it this is actually very eager to testify and one of the main things of course that's holding him back right now is of course his lawyer is the same lawyer for Charlie Kupperman who was campaign being run and of course he has policy differences with trump in in different different areas and he's never been shy about coming out in correcting the record on these things so it remains Democrats summoning John Bolton who if you looked at this a year ago let alone six or eight years ago no one would expect the John Bolton would be something somewhere the White House when determining whether or not he's going to testify but Bolton left the White House on very bad terms he was very much opposed to this Ukraine core policy shadow and how she was smeared and I think they feel that she's been wrong and they want that to be corrected on the record so this is bring this back to Joyce here you have we've seen how he's going to approach this legally because we're told he still wants that shield order to show the GOP establishment that he has been fighting back against you know this impeachment inquiry but at the same time I'm he really wants to get the President Back David well and remember that despite all the legal arguments whoever his attorney is John Bolton as a citizen all of this and we were just learning that Tim Morrison who of course replaced Fiona Hill on the National Security Council it's also resigning and we confirmed that with the administration and we're told that you know he not getting into that yet and still try to otherwise honestly comply exactly Joyce that's others have done so in the past week or two can decide on his own to come forward and speak the truth it just gets to the issue you know to who is your master his deputy at the National Security Council and coppermine of course has recently launched a lawsuit to determine to force a court essentially to decide who he should listen to Congress concern and when asked certain questions for example about what he reported directly to the National Security Council White House counsel lawyers he reportedly said well that's privilege or not career officials they don't want to have the baggage of the trump White House linger with them for throughout the rest of their careers take that then to the the new sign attached to the into that you can fight that out but even if you recognize a certain privilege could be executive could be lawyers could be medical you can always say in the deposition on that the resistance and Liberal Democrats are thrilled about and yet it's because he's not there as a as an ideologue he's not there because of his views of the UN or foreign policy is it donald trump or is it the constitution this is not about executive privilege this is not about I can't portray my oath of keeping you know secret advice to the president this is about whether you store something that Fianna hello who worked at the White House says that you called a drug deal right drug deals and lawyer is his former deputy yes it's conceivable that he could ask a court to decide whether he asked to testify or not but if he wants to go he can go right Joyce legal right there a legal criminal to your point David I mean Mr Finland reportedly gave his truthful accounting he said why he was so jury thing I always call it a Hanukkah jury so same principle joy set him up for that I thought he might go flee right and with these former employees the White House can't force them to stay away from testifying we've seen in recent days even with current employees if tend to testify they can go ahead and comply with a lawful subpoena so for someone like Bolton it's far less a question of needing legal protection yes he has the same the jury is obviously they always between days all right I'm sorry it's my fault the torture what you think you're learning why are you summoning John Bolton now does that mean the intelligence committee is nearing the end of the key witnesses in the deposition phase let me just readout that was released by the White House and we look at overwhelming clear and convincing corroborative testimony from our witnesses it is in a short period of time I think has been slightly over a month now a lot has happened we do know if we start with whistleblowers report but then quickly turned you to stay with me because we're GONNA turn to an official on the hill and I'd like your views as a prosecutor i WanNa thank Natasha Bertrand and I wanNA put David Corn on the spot did you know about this Christmas what I can say is that I am delighted to see this vote happening tomorrow because I really think it lays out a very clear process to come before us the evidence is is pretty clear that the president abuse his power that the president attempted to coerce a foreign power to interfere you are work is really what do we want to do about it as you well know tomorrow we will be voting on a resolution that will further care advanced the ball down the continues to try to obstruct justice by trying to get people to not appear and dinner also involved in a cover up the question that still remains as we continue deal as we prepare to move into a public arena let's get into the resolution it looks like a set of rules and a blueprint for the potential impeachment of president trump and someone with a lot of prosecutorial investigative experience? Thanks for coming on the beat tonight thank you our great to be with you great to have you as mentioned choices here as well walkers through do you view tomorrow's vote and if it is a majority of Democrats majority the Congress as showing that the speaker has amassed United Caucus to ultimately impeach president trump David thanks to both of you stay with me now turn to Florida Congresswoman Val demings who served on both the Intelligence and Judiciary Committee is right in the center of this event Diagram Dr Election that the president really betrayed his oath of office and the American people that the president also has has struck that justice no I think we are much closer because the second phase of this process is to move into public hearings give the president of the United States and opportunity to us from moving forward sets the ground rules very clearly as you know many of them mimic what was done in one thousand nine hundred ninety eight when the Republicans actually you see the best case for a narrow articles of impeachment around just Ukraine or do you think the judiciary committee should consider other potential offenses. Well I certainly think that when you look at the Inspector General's report we focused on Ukraine because the inspector general concluded that committees with jurisdiction over to the Judiciary Committee I also sit on that committee and we will be responsible for reviewing it right and writing articles helped to write the procedures that we will use tomorrow as I've said the evidence against the president no matter how hard the abusive equally sort of actions that would warrant impeachment they may be more difficult for people to understand and because impeachment very successful at moving this narrative forward it simple it's compelling although things may have happened in connection with the molar report that are equal respond which we would certainly love to hear from him and then we will move to giving the reports from all of the to the Judiciary Committee for the potential articles our fellow panelist here prosecutor also has testified before that committee my question to you and then Joyce is was of an urgent nature so you see how far we've been able to advance the ball down the field by focusing on this issue I don't think they're any intentions before I go Joyce your view I think it's hard to argue with success and the committees that congresswoman deming sits on have been potentially more than one article of impeachment in your view I certainly believe that the judiciary committee will be complete and thorough in the work that we will do interesting so Ari to totally ignore other instances of obstruction of justice justice more than eight it is essentially a political process simplicity and ease of understanding matters a very interesting to get such expertise in the case of congresswoman hey msnbc listeners it's me Chuck Rosenberg this week on the oath I sit down with the former chief of staff for both the CIA and the Department of Defense Democratic Rules coming out tomorrow about impeaching trump and quid pro quo that's would've trump insider says new reporting on that later meanwhile diplomats saying Giuliani was this particular complaint was number one that was was credible but that it was of an urgent nature because it involved our national security we all now know that associated with it because we fear or are concerned if America was seen as the author of it there could be blowback and these are basically the most secret sensitive intelligence missions in our it out for for viewers of people around the country understanding if they see this resolution passed them all does that mean we are closer to impeaching the president or in your view not necessarily dabbing someone with a vote on the biggest issue facing the nation the White House right now that's something that separates you from a lot of other people with expertise we speak to Joyce and a and DOD Chief of Staff Jeremy Bash that's this week on MSNBC's the oath available now wherever you get your podcasts an obstacle on national security in Ukraine and ahead of the Impeachment Vote Tomorrow New Echoes of Watergate we'll explain all remember you're watching the beat on MSNBC Tori Jeremy Discusses how the CIA is structured and how it operates and he shares a fascinating account of it's painstaking work to locate Osama bin Laden they had already looked at up until that that's exactly the next thing would ask you about so we're we're thinking up on the same process as you just said those rules take the facts as found by the intelligence committee and then they go breaking news now and impeachment witness Ukraine expert and trump staffer saying we're learning that it was a quid pro quo and this is testimony that we've been talking about sense the bombshell and Jeremy Bash when the United States acts overseas there are occasions where it will advance the foreign policy interests of the United States but we don't want America the option of a B. Two strike which we would basically pulverize the entire compound tournament to dust but at the end of the day the president thought if it's bin Laden we're going to need to take that body down later tonight but we begin with Breaking News House Democrats are calling one of their largest and most significant witnesses yet in this whole offers compound so he green lighted the heliborne raid from eastern Afghanistan that Admiral mcraven and his forces had planned please join me for that conversation with former CIA condemning thanks to both of you thank you appreciate it up ahead we have a special report we're working on that it's going to break down the exact details and clues from these and the Republicans struggled to defend him whether you're looking at them saying carpet issue a little pretty clear let me put you a little what I'm trying to his view quote contingent on Ukrainians opening probes into the Biden's and the two thousand Sixteen Election Alvin man has you know if you've been following this matters even before he said this okay army Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vitamin has now dropped another bomb because he's specifically laid out that the millions and military aid at the center of this bribery clot was plot order's about things we usually discuss off camera listen for free wherever you get your podcast number one point oh where even when you're requested by subpoena you claim you might fight it you're saying he's much closer to lawfully comply that's what I hear had a transcript done by very very talented people word for word Comma for comma done by people back and I will so on the scale of say ambassador Taylor who was over here saying I'm ready to rush in you don't have to make me do anything and say what we might call particular how do you interpret this I interpret the requests for a subpoena as saying he is going to cooperate just give him the cover that he needs nothing made misleading edits of Abidin reference in those same call notes he says he tried to correct the record all of this looks like another problem for the president is this a consciousness that there was some stuff that was still to damning to include we'll trump's allies are saying no nothing to see one person disagrees it's a collective group that decides not the president there is nothing impeachable about this is that true what's the real story then you'd to basically argue that whatever happened wasn't impeachable meanwhile vitamin has also testified at the White House edited or potentially ops him from going in and testify voluntarily as you all already discussed so this is really saying make it clear that I have no choice but to go in and testify service of a quote subpoena from the Democrats let's get right into what that all means with Wiley a former prosecutor from the southern district and former counsel to the Mayor New York mayor to the allegations are so far I don't see that rising to the level of an impeachable offense there are a number of individuals listening to the call and they put the transcript together is beyond the law but as I always remind folks you also practice law for a politician for mayor and there's different issues there this also protects Bolton's flank with what we live from southern district of New York are special counsels when we discussed it in thirty seconds breaking news it's been coming in fast and furious we just got the first response from John Bolton's lawyer he has told The New York Times and we have it written here that his client will not appear voluntarily for the Democrats new summons for Bolton testify that was breaking just as we came on the set but the response is interesting because it also says that Bolton stands ready to accept do that wasn't quite the case from reading the darn thing now you have this new pressure the memo they released as I mentioned says it wasn't a rebate transcript to begin with but now you have them saying not only was it not the adult in the room he was the national security advocate in the room trying to interrupt this outside around the parameters of how because look he doesn't have to invite a subpoena inviting a subpoena means you're saying I'm going to cooperate otherwise you don't invite the sippy right and it sort of protects would for a living word for word and comma for Comma it's so specific it's almost hanging yourself out to dry because we need I called the traditional conservative establishment in Washington he's saying look I'm not running out I'm not doing any reason not doing a book tour but yeah if I get a subpoena from this building August I'm GonNa go tell the truth right and remember all I think that's absolutely right and all that we know of John Bolton is he from all of the testimony we've heard so far is he was radim you have witnesses saying no it was totally incorrect now why leave in some Biden and take somebody now why open yourself up to the view that you released and are still hiding final security and how diplomacy is handled and he's the one trying to rein it back in and bring it back into the process back into the national interest so he has nothing to hide well as we know it wasn't a transcription it was a summary be it wasn't the entire conversation and see now we doc done by stenographers of the exact conversation I had so we have an exact compensation there was an exact transcription of the conversation the details of what many are arguing is part of the alleged cover up and articles of impeachment this is not just a sideshow is literally an article potentially all by itself my conversation an exact transcript we have an exact copy of the report of the of the call I released a transcription I based on everything we've heard so far the other story that want to get you on is vin been the big news was oh okay bribery plot big quid pro quo but he's also if we point it's not a great strategy because that I that call summary in and of itself was a smoking gun so to so that they actually would not include in the call summary things at the lieutenant colonel felt should be in there do you whatever they left out either was really bad and it's actually worse than we're hearing or they were trying to thinking that it was basically going to set bob read the transcript and if it is corrections in it doesn't change anything for me let's or something that we none of us have heard anything about based on what yeah do you have any theory of why they would do that I get hiding and I get releasing everything and saying hey whatever we defended I don't really get the strategy of the take a look here at all the times we've heard from the trump side about the transcript Tikolo we had an exact transcript I released the transcript of New York City good to see you good to see you John Bolton obviously is key from the moment that the show started tonight to to this table we have to on Bolton's lawyer saying something pretty they look like a roadmap to impeach donald trump quickly that's next national security secrets so they may have thought they were hiding it well enough but just to be safe we'll just keep out some of the blatant statements I don't know what statements could have been blatant but we know we didn't get the entire call we also know that if two weeks for as we know from Lieutenant Colonel Vin men if two weeks before that we come back we have something special we've been working on as Congress holds the first impeachment floor vote tomorrow my special report for you on what these new rules mean what they do and the house impeachment probe is now moving so fast tonight it's easy to lose sight of how fundamentally this Ukraine scandal shifted with congressional Democrats had been doing until all this this vote will test and show Pelosi has a united caucus on impeachment constitutionally it creates the blueprint for impeaching trump which is aim slow approach not any one issue is going to trigger a now go do this my position has always collection points one recent one coming it was barely a month ago when Pelosi announced that Ukraine changed everything launching the impeachment pro but no one knew exactly what that meant at the time she said would be more fair and they empower not only members of Congress but top committee lawyers to do the high stakes questioning that could remember the very speaker who is now barreling towards tomorrow's key vote on a process to impeach trump spent months holding back as top committee chairs deferred to that call even happened we have sunland saying in a meeting with Bolton and Ukrainians Yeah you got to do this you want the meeting with the president we got to see these clued former prosecutors like Daniel Goldman joined Adam Shifts Committee in March you may recognize him from this and other news programs could also mean Berry Burke a Harvard under the politicians on the panel spoke model that actually hearkens all the way back to Watergate when staff lawyers like Fred Thompson led witnesses to important revelation up here are three key parts of this new impeachment blueprint which we've just gotten a hold of I the new rules pave the way for public hearings which trump's Republican defenders investigations quid pro quo. It's like quit quit quit I mean there's a bunch of things a bunch of this for that is the lawyers say thanks for breaking it down as always we turn to right now how this blueprint works because there's more going on here than just a party line floor vote tomorrow. The resolution that they're voting on delineates a new Asian of any listening devices in the Oval Office of the President I was aware of listening spin the whatever decision we made in that regard what has to be done with our strongest possible hand and we still have some outstanding matters in the courts but off given all his past avoidance stonewalling defiance of these probes House Judiciary Chairman Jerry Nadler issued subpoenas only the text of the resolution actually means what else it sets in motion which includes rules and protections for the person who may ultimately be put on trial Donald Trump I'm not there yet and I think if it is a close call close calls go against putting the country through that leave office being impeached by house prices those voices you hear the questions are the professionals and deploying them as another sign that the planned hearings now won't be intended to be educated lawyer who clerked for judge the famous Sdn Wide Court System the judiciary committee tapped him to run that tough round of questioning for Corey Lewandowski's this was to investigate the president for high crimes misdemeanors now the White House has been fighting anyone going down to Congress going through those metal detectors tomorrow today for a full unredacted version of the report the start of what's likely to be a protracted legal fight this is ridiculous I say it's enough stonewall is not as a loaded word there are constitutional privileges that exists in the White House is now openly defying Congress's power this tomorrow is Democrats plan to give trump protections and options which is interesting because House Democrats are basically reinvited trump to a party he keeps blowing saying his committee will apply serious procedures that confer rights for the president equal to those provided during the Nixon and Clinton inquiries it's did you say that because you wanted to protect the president not to the best of my recollection sir the target president trump remembered constitution doesn't detail how to run an impeachment in the House or Senate trial so Congress decides each time Eh what I can tell you is tonight we now know the House voting tomorrow on Resolution six sixty this is the first floor vote on a path to impeaching trump politically Capitol Hill Talk Affonso for soundbites but rather focus more on getting evidence now second in these new rules that we have now gotten a hold of protection in the rare times it's happened that America gets to the point we're at the point where reaching tomorrow with this vote the precedents only give some ideas what we now know from this new resolution passed I'll tell you what this resolution means the house is saying through its power basically Mr President this is real and you have one more chance before we impeach too actually in his personal lawyer David Kendall to face the house impeachment pro and chairman Nadler is now emphasizing that very option in a new statement about these rules and your folks down whoever you choose could be your lawyers to make your case that's basically what they're telling you remember that is actually what President Clinton did he did you deny it is you wanted to protect yourself not to the best of my recollection metric did you lie on national television are you aware of a deep sixth because remember part of the issue is the name moved when is really something that did not have to be in this DC deepest darkest server basement of will anyone with an Internet connection can get that but others could shape the fights ahead how the public and the Senate view this and whether trump is enabled to not only send lawyers to talk to shape these hearings to question witnesses to object to whether certain witnesses or evidence can be used against the president era but here's the thing to exercise those rights if this resolution passes tomorrow trump will have to reverse himself and the STONEWALL and Kangaroo Court strategy which has I want to be clear about this those are new powers the house is giving to Donald Trump in the spirit of they say fairness that aren't automatic because the constitution doesn't institution and gets a floor vote impeaching trump it does raise the big question of where we're headed what are they impeaching trump four hey the democrat in charge of the rules committee made that point while speaking to the stakes during the impeachment of President Nixon and Clinton this is different when you think about it on Ukraine congress is doing the fact finding itself because there's no special counsel for Ukraine collusion in fact just today solution we know the Intel Committee gathered facts and were later released depositions in their report on Ukraine Democrats say that committee is basically playing the role that in the past each congress perhaps before it's too late then there's perhaps the most pivotal thing we are learning about how this will go down it's a clue that you actually have to dig out of this we'll ask each of us what we did in this moment we will stand up for the constitution and defend the rule of law so of Congress finds the facts and stands up for the richman process who will lead it so if you want to understand the road to impeach trump and what it will be up in any Senate trial you have to see what they're voting on which means crat led committee investigation Muller finding quote substantial evidence of obstruction in five different incidents in fact you're probably old enough to remember when top primary investigators have played like those prosecutors who did the fact finding work in the Nixon and Clinton cases they basically produced facts and reports which Congress than took and reviewed one thing to three hole like interconnected plot of things even if you say okay for Ukraine all right is it one thing the bribery plot red said that was obstruction it was just a few months ago there was a sufficient factual and legal basis to further investigate I mean it visual committee is actually even distributing this handy new chart that shows every protection that Clinton Nixon got what about the second thing the alleged cover what about obstruction and then think about this and I discussed this earlier tonight with a member of Congress if you go after Donald Trump for a few weeks with check marks that the Democrats will give trump trump those and even more now I want to be clear some of the things that are listening automatic like getting a copy of what the Democrats do in committee Angela Obstruction of justice issues involving the president is that correct yes that could be another basis to allege that the president was obstructing word articles plural not one article and Congress hands the keys to decide on any article or articles to the Judiciary Committee right and no special prosecutor has been named to investigate president trump on this that's why the intelligence committee has been

trump president Ukraine trump judiciary committee trump David Ari Officer Edmonds Congress United States Florida United Caucus Val demings two weeks four million dollars thirty seconds eight years nine year
Not an Agatha Christie Mystery

Skullduggery

51:31 min | 1 year ago

Not an Agatha Christie Mystery

"So that was those were the driving factors that he also mentioned to me and pass that the corruption related to the d. server absolutely no question about that but that's it and that's why we held up the money that's why we held up the money that was acting white house chief of staff when silent the ambassador to the european union called him and he testified to that effect so they have the president's words to sunlen saying no quid pro quo and now we have mick mulvaney his words saying with the truth and nothing else i'm mike gaba chief investigator what is when mulvaney made those comments that's evidence he is quoting the president that is exactly the silver platter yeah we could see it quoted in article one of impeachment proceedings to me what i kept thinking is like first of all how in the world addity very trumpian actually try to normalize their borderline criminality and say hey it's all out in the open so you know let's just move on correspondent for yahoo news i'm dan kleinman editor in chief of yahoo news so we all watched the havini presser and my thoughts word of testimony that the house committees are desperately trying to get in this impeachment inquiry and then mulvaney hands it to them on this happening and is this kind of the chaos and incompetence that you often see in this administration or is it some kind of like calculated flight all new ammunition for the impeachment inquiry we'll discuss with a key member of the house committees investigating the president and we'll talk with a former national security council exonerate vladimir putin's russia over its attack on the two thousand sixteen election will these unexpected candor blindsided white house lawyers and he was quickly oh yes there was the president told me that's one of the reasons to get the ukrainians to do what he wants is political bidding that's one of the reasons he held them agree because people have gotta know whether or not their president surprised in an impeachment trial it's gonna hang on the argument that there wasn't a quid pro quo because that's what the president supposedly told gordon sunland right right and you know what struck me is okay the white house lawyers clearly they were to the extent that there is any planning for a defense for the president spended three hundred ninety one million dollars in military aid to ukraine in order to get its new government to investigate the democratic national committee server that the president and bizarrely thanks is being hidden somewhere in the bowels of the basement and kiev it's an absurd conspiracy theory pushed by the president's allies away to somebody i did not have sexual relations with that one there will be no lies we will honor the american people i'm not crop i told the american people i did not trade arms for hostile my heart to my best intentions still tell me that's true but the facts and the evidence tell me it is official about the fallout from vice president pence is deal with turkish president earn awan for a temporary ceasefire in syria on this episode of sculptor the aid now the white house lawyers again freaking out then we'll jay seculow is personal lawyer apparently said he had no idea i to walk back the comments the country had just heard on national television but the damage was done the white house had once again handed the president's critics spoke the president never told me that he just said there was no quid pro quo so they're still stuck with what mulvaney said quoting message that gordon bill taylor saying i spoke to the president there's no quid pro quo but that doesn't negate he didn't say no and the president citing the president's directive that yes that's why we held up the money look at every stage of this before it became public as people who are involved in this conspiracy are seeing it unfold their reaction is there's a quid pro quo all right i mean we know that william taylor the ambassador who was at the embassy in ukraine who was on these conversations and text messages with gordon someone learn this week from fiona hill's testimony who was the top NFC official overseeing russia and ukraine and was in some of these meetings that she hated to do that by trump actually went to senator ron johnson the republican from wisconsin and told him there was a quid pro quo and we know that we is is saying you know this looks like a quid pro quo we know that song lind who sent the text message saying there is no quid pro quo after he was he was horrified by what was going on talked to her boss the national security adviser john bolton john bolton saw what was happening and he tried to make a distinction between the request about the DNC server and supposed- ukrainian interference in the two thousand biden and the reason he's making that distinction is he's saying that the request relating to the server and ukraine is part of a author sixteen election distinguishing that from the separate request on that phone call for an investigation into joe biden and his son hunter eight with a duly authorized justice department investigation is not in any way improper or unorthodox problem is the justice department investigation into the origins of the russia probe to begin with and therefore asking a foreign government to cooperate act he directed viewing hill to go to white house lawyers and tell them i think the quote is got got the quote of what hill said of it of any was gonna go out and say so they craft a statement from veins saying no there was no quid pro quo by its very which sounded very much like the texts with that though the problem with that is that there's absolutely no indication that the justice department review ordered by attorney general up pretty strong words and now we have vini right affirming that affirming it now to be fair because we liked to be fair on skulduggery don't we me bar being conducted by john doerum is looking at the supposedly missing DNC server which is a complete irrelevancy and you think that president trump is making these kinds of distinctions between a duly authorized justice department investigation and his desire to investigate tissue between all of these scandals that we've been talking about over the last week you've got ukraine which was clearly subverting american joe biden for what he perceives to be corruption you can possibly construct a plausible argument for what mulvaney is saying if bazaar requests from trump to find the supposedly missing DNC server look strikes me is there is a kind of connected most notably his conduct in office but then you also have lindsey graham who was apoplectic about what's going on and has made that clear to the president has nothing to do with the ample evidence that the russians hacked the DNC and then again the documents to win over do we in foreign policy interests to the president's political deeds you've got even what's happening in turkey and syria is a wholesale politically label impeachment trial and some of his most loyal supporters i mean clearly you have the mitt romney's of the world who have been criticizing the president's about a lot of things association of american foreign policy because you know president trump made a promise to his base that they were gonna get out of out of these wars and he it makes some sense that will further your goals that's the question about the serious stuff but look politically you know i think the serious stuff is huge john durham who's conducting that review from bar had gone to kiev and ask for this information and hadn't been getting it and therefore there was AM is a is a guy trump is going to need one hundred percent and to have him as upset as he is about this is not good for the president's defense and clearly it's offended and upset a lot of republicans in the senate who trump is going to need for the what sliding like the is a clear resistance to having US troops around the world involved in what he views as endless wars with some justification afghanistan is bolton told her i am not part of any drug deal has online and mullen hooking up not part of whatever drug deal they're cooking all right we absolutely expect there's going to article three is going to be emoluments article two is going to be obstruction and article one is going to be the hold up what are the justice department had just mom respond to this they said mulvaney is remarks were news to us so the justice department had nothing to do with this purpose you know part of me is thinking why does adam schiff do adam schiff and the democrats have to go through this whole process of hearings and deposition when the white house is handing them all the evidence they need start with the transcript of the phone call where trump clearly says what he says asking about zone linski your majesty's letters show an understanding that our laws forbid the president from receiving these rich presents as personal treasures and he says he goes on to say that craned deal and then the question is but under the obstruction of course you know they'll be plenty of stuff about the obstruction of the mueller probe we'll be getting into this we hope with our i the other thing bizarre thing that happened that mulvaney press conference was the beginning of it where he announced that the g. seven is that they've selected the best possible place nations in any trophies of conquest could be so that was eighteen sixty one you heard it only on skulduggery the king of siam shoutout so investigate by the biden's you have mulvaney acknowledging this was a part of a quid pro quo and then you have the durao deal certainly in that category syria is is looking like one as well you know the question is how you go about it and is there any sort of process that and you know those kinds of very kind of crude political electoral calculations and when you're disagree with you there i i don't think that's an electoral calculation he had which is you know it's like they're writing the articles of impeachment for the democrat that's throw in emolument closely expect and what does the white house do they seek a legal opinion from the office of legal counsel to determine whether that accepting that price would be would be in conflict for for this kind of a meeting the durrell golf resorts golf resort and he said it was almost as if it was constructed for this very citizenship and he did the same thing requested whether that an opinion as to whether that would be in violation of the emoluments clause this president has never done that with the emoluments clause it turns out it wasn't he was able to accept it every president has done this i think john f. kennedy was being offered letters namely a sort of costly materials and exquisite workmanship a photograph of your likeness to elephant tusks etc etc and then he says yes jamie raskin so on monuments before we get to raskin i just want to say i was doing a little bit of research on how prior presidents dealt with this issue when they were other received a number of gifts from the king of siam he let's see he see your magic i'm going to read this letter that he sent the king of siam february fourteenth eighteen i want to know at this point is what is the road going forward for the democrats how are they going to get from these closed door he earings with secret depositions being leaked out by partisans on both sides after the fact to making the public case scipion of gifts from foreign leaders and princes as the actual emolument clause refers to tell well eighteen sixty one abraham lincoln under their direction the gifts will be placed among the archives of the government where they will remain perpetually as tokens of mutual esteem and pacific dispositions more honorable to both yes you want great and good friend i have received your majesty's to letters he says your majesty's he says i've also received in good condition the royal gifts which accompanied those us at skulduggery pod that's at skulduggery pod and we will certainly take them under advisement lawsuits ongoing lawsuits about emoluments that somebody would have said maybe this isn't the greatest thing well they talked about i mean mulvaney said in the press conference that they knew that gory but flash forward to two thousand nine when obama much to his surprise is notified that he's receiving the nobel peace prize stunned about the durrell deal you would think knowing the controversy about the trump organization businesses and the trump hotel and the law we're going to get criticized for this they talked about it they recognized that this would be would be questioned but trumpeted anyway because trump likes to stick out a big middle finger the i think they've got like four or five more scheduled over the next week or so and remember you have these closed airings then you want if you want public hearings the house judiciary committee to vote articles of impeachment out and yet we keep hearing about more witnesses they're calling i wonder if i'm back again to skulduggery well thanks for having me quite a week how big of a gift for you was malvinas her to the new york times and to skulduggery and to all the naysayers entered into the liberals you know that's just his MO yeah well look what as far as we can tell well you know like i said it's ample ammunition that the democrats can use and the white house i mean i gotta say i'm pretty four we get there i want to remind you that if you've got any questions comments or thoughts criticisms whatever feel free to ready before it should be perfectly clear now but this whole thing is not exactly agatha christie mystery you know i think we know precisely what happened it's just that a whole impeachment process becomes dicey because we're in an election year that's one of the questions we want ask jamie raskin our first guest about but before relating to the server relates to the justice department inquiry ordered by bar being conducted by john durham into the origins of the russian investing gatien okay well the the way that i read it is that he's alibi was we were we were really doing was shaking them down for all this adds up to impeachment and removal for the president it seems to me they've got a hold public hearings fairly soon there's gotta be a referral i suppose the character of the crime gets bigger and bigger i mean his his alibi was they were actually committing different crime you know we thought what they were the confirmation of a conspiracy theory that would help us debunk the miller report and mothers finding that there was a sweeping and systematic campaign you gotta bring these people back and you have to reschedule to get them back that's gonna take time the clock is ticking it seems to me once you get into twenty twenty mance yesterday in that press conference well you mean that full blown confession that he rendered on national TV if it if it weren't cleared also fulfil that that's okay legitim- again go off the question is do you make those kinds of foreign policy decisions based on in by vladimir putin to undermine election they wanted to replace that with a theory that there was some ukraine DNC plot taking down ukraine for political dirt on the biden's he said no actually we're taking them down for validation to make the tightest strongest case that is going to sway the american people and ultimately sway republicans in the senate and what does that look deeply involved in the entire impeachment inquiry and a three i'm or a time SQL duggar yes congressman welcome bring the computer server there i mean i can barely even follow it but have you said investigators to calve to find that server take place between thanksgiving and christmas there's a lot clearly a lot of evidence i mean in some ways the democrats cup flow with over but the question is how are you going secretary pompeo sold her down the river all in pursuit of this duplicitous plot that he had deputized and then hold that up in return for complying with the president's political demands i mean it's just an outrageous scandalous situation and everybody sees it for what it is to a struggling democratic ally in ukraine which is dealing with russian occupation of crimea and trying to contend with russian influence for up but it radiates outwards from there you know there was the political hit job that was orchestrated so i i you know the whole thing is reflective of a state of mind where they think he insisted repeatedly yesterday this is perfectly routine invalid conduct on their part this is how they operate they hold up you know money that congress says waffly appropriated for particular purposes you're military assistance mode but i'm not there yet there are a lot of i mean when you try to sketch it out there are a lot of different ways of organizing all of this conduct and you can either against embassador you're gonna vich and the failure of the president to come to her aid on the contrary the president and kind of misconduct so so write the articles of impeachment for us you had to have been giving a lot of thought to this what's article one is it a getting has been the conversion of the presidency in instrument of private profit and to campaign reelection and so we have these substantial and set it up and i think you know there's the we're going to have to follow the evidence and see how complete story we can tell and you know it's aw and repeat and continuing violations of the foreign and domestic emoluments clauses these are the causes that were set up in the constitution precisely to prevent this brought abuse of power or a narrow abuse of power related to ukraine it what's article to presumably obstruction article three himalayan try to tell a factual narrative and then draw legal conclusions from it were you can organize it by specific high crimes and misdemeanors okay we now have with us jamie raskin congressman from maryland abuse of power violation of the foreign and domestic emoluments causes obstruction of justice contempt of congress so there's different ways jerry had closed door hearings but then it had public hearings and in those closed door hearings by the way the president's president nixon's lawyer james sinclair was there muller remember was limited completely in time and scope to the two thousand sixteen election so he hasn't done any of this stuff about the ukraine to question ken starr before the house judiciary committee as part of the impeachment inquiry that was going on none of that's taking place nixon clinton there were special counsels that collected a lot of the basic facts i mean you know if you look at the clinton impeachment like to you right now what is the impeachment case against donald trump well the heart of it is this shakedown the sell out of our principles and in the subsequent let's get give us your roadmap to what the articles are going to look like well you know the the the fact is that since we're still in the very active investigation donald trump is a one man crime wave you know but it's a race between that and the legislative calendar in our need to get this done i think it's everybody's ken starr turned his report over to the house judiciary committee and that was pretty much the end of it i don't think they called any witnesses and basically they just used tire to get it done in two thousand nineteen you know there's a legislative calendar at work and then there's a political campaign calendar at work and i think everybody would like to see us the have closed door hearings given that they're leaking out anyway shifts rationale well we can't let the witnesses what other witnesses are saying we're learning that in real time to be present and was able to question witnesses in clinton's case david kendall was able in public before the tv cameras shifts stated properly i mean these people would be coordinating their stories and have done everything they can i think to try to coordinate their story are all closed doors no counsel from the president present we're just getting selective leaks i don't get what the reason at this point is they have public hearings but remember were basically in the down and dirty investigative mode right now you know in prior impeachments opportunity to bring a case here they had all the whistle blower information and they decided not to investigate they decided that there was education is the way presented it well that must have been cleanup operation i didn't hear him say that in the prescott is they were saying look the the request mulvaney making what amounted to a remarkable public confession there was indeed a quid pro quo the white house under orders from trump that report in the nixon impeachment it was much more thorough than that but still they relied very heavily on special counsel archibald cox is work we don't have a special counsel on the to kind of race that's going on the one hand we have this pandora's box of high crimes and misdemeanors that are popping out all over the place because no crime here they decided not to go into so this is the only impeachment where you do not have a prior department of justice investigation into essential me anyway so why can't we see this in public right now well there are two reasons one is evidently reason which which the german but look in those past impeachments there was much more of a rigorous process it's true that under nixon house today really truly on any to go and execute in ukraine so that's the heart of it but of course the cardinal sin of administration from the plot and you know the surrounding fact so we're doing all of that for the first time and that's why we are in investigative closed-door mode right now wrap this stuff up in two thousand nineteen before voting starts and will there be public hearings and if so when will they be and who is so this is the impeachment is moving on a pretty fast track right now you've got mitch mcconnell saying that everyone's should be ready by thanksgiving that a trial awesome and which committee will hold those hearings i mean i would love to tell you guys but none of that has been decided yet i think that there's a strong sentiment that we need to season so anyway by reading the newspapers and seeing what people are saying but you know the department of justice had the if a paranoid conspiracy theory about ukraine in the two thousand sixteen also he said it's about an cooperating with an authorized justice department invest cheerio facts so that's what we're trying to do right now i understand this is the republican irrelevant processed complaint of the week that they want to say that all of these should be open door hearings but it sounds fancy is not a republican goal exclusive it is nato the reversal of the sanctions this chaos in the middle east benefiting only syria and russia and so on but we don't know why watergate period but as a just political proposition isn't important at some point to hold public hearings to avoid the perception when she's been saying with you mr president all roads lead to putin and that's clearly true the only way of understanding the president's vary turn each of the depositions we're doing into a corey lewandowski styles circus show an indictment of their fantasy deep-sea ahmad situation is there financial information that would be reflected in his tax returns demonstrates his relationship the house of representatives acts like a prosecutor we are bringing charges we will send impeachment managers over to the US senate in order to make our case if that's as you know people don't have due process rights before a grand jury you don't have a right to appear there and bring lawyers and make a case that's what the trial is about it's foreign policy reversals in blunders and bafflement is that everything lines up with vladimir putin would want the dismantling of to this date is missing what democrats need to make a a really an iron clad case for impeachment here that hasn't come out well i believe why we don't know we really don't know exactly is this just a profound sympathy that donald trump has with vladimir putin is this accomplish draftsmanship and we're not there yet but let me let me tell you this i'll tell you what is missing we don't have you know speaker pelosi has come close to it in the last couple of days the that's the trial they're just trying to blockade the progress of impeachment having said that i definitely think that we need to have some public hearings at some point whole progress precisely because we are not allowing them to turn it into a circus we're dealing with very different republican party in two thousand nineteen then you were dealing with back during the war with the constitutional design is here we are not having a trial in the house of representatives we're the prosecutors at best you can liken this to a grand jury and right but the major thing is for us to get the evidence down for us to make the case and then we will do the public hearings that are warranted but they should not be confusing the trial process four witnesses do you have how many more weeks do you expect these close-door depositions to take and then wendy you pivot to the public phase wait the full panoply of due process protections kicks in for the president for his lawyer to appear to put on whatever crazy evidence they want they can do whatever they want able to move forward with multiple counts what's what's article one what's missing well i get i don't know because th- that's a matter of the give us your rough idea of the timetable right now you say at some point we'll go to public hearings and then get this done by the end of the year but give me how many that you're railroading the president you want you want to appeal not just to yes okay go ahead i wanna make two points about it one is understandable ah we have something close to ironclad case on multiple high crimes and misdemeanors and if we cut it off right now i think that we would be retry i gotta say congressman if muller couldn't answer those questions in two years i think it's unlikely you're going to answer them in the next couple of weeks but that said give tell us his and again who's gonna conduct that public face yes and here again i'm not being coy or evasive every time that we get new witnesses they took various oligarchs wondering so we don't know that in my mind and i'm speaking is one member of congress that's something i would love to closed loop on invoked the names of other people who we want to interview and we have to try to figure out how to fit it all in and how to properly sequence the witnesses as they come so i can't tell with what the prosecutors do one last question your your mind congressman what is the the most important evidence that oh you when we get to the end of that process and i can't tell you exactly when we would begin the referral of everything to the judiciary committee to compile into articles but by christmas well i will tell you that is the sentiment among members everybody would like this to be done for thanksgiving so everybody could have done but again you know we're we're not going to short circuit the process but we're also not gonna drag it out or let the GOP drag it out we're being very serious about it impeachment but i will tell you that everybody is working as hard and as fast as possible to have all of this make sense do you make the referral by thanksgiving and then in keeping this on a methodical timetable all right well we will be checking back with you regularly on this methodical timetable because rom coms not so much today keeps has revolutionized the way men are treated for hair loss used to have to go to a doctor's office right well you don't have to do that anymore you can is it a doctor online and you can get medication delivered right to your home look everyone prevention is key and keeps treatments really work there up to ninety percent of out of three guys are going to experience some form of male pattern baldness by the time they're thirty five that's not good news but you know it is good news with today's advancements in science effective at reducing and stopping further hair loss that's created ninety percent that's almost one hundred the sooner you start using keeps the more hair you'll save and this is a real cool bonus many men even experienced hair regrowth with keeps treatments keeps is crushing it in the five star review game in nearly one hundred thousand men trust keeps point was also responsible for matters in iraq she was also special assistant to then national security advisor tom donilon under president obama samantha welcome you take action and prevent hair loss go to keeps dot com slash skulduggery to receive your first month of treatment for free that's keeps k. e. keeps treatments start just ten bucks a month that's at ten bucks a month to change your life forever plus for a limited time you can get your first month free if you're ready keeps offers proven treatments that can combat the symptoms of hair loss talk to my wife she didn't sign up to wind up with some guy who has a crown pattern in his hair that's not gonna work it was cool and we now have with us samantha vinograd former national security council official who at one this is clearly going to be the biggest story for quite some time congressman thanks again thank you and keep telling the people the truth he s dot com slash skulduggery do it and then tell everybody you want a brand new home for your birthday it conspiracy imaginings i mean that's what they wanna do but we're not gonna do that where we are we are actually making remarkably rapid and methodically were-they syria and potentially throughout the country so the US leverage in terms of just having any foothold in syria right now to negotiate on what's happening whether it's prestige i mean normally in a situation like this if you negotiate a ceasefire you then work to enforce that ceasefire but we don't seem to have the leverage to do that and russia iran and bashar assad or getting stronger so this is not a great day for civilization it was an awful day for the world in terms of war crimes and in terms skulduggery thanks for having me what a day to be on yeah so speaking of great days our president called the deal including republicans mitt romney called it a bloodstain on the in the annals of american history also strongly suggested that the in this agreement which he referred to cease fire which all referred to as a surrender agreement may already have been broken we've learned throughout history that these these agreements are ten vented donald trump doesn't really care about exerting influence you think back to why he decided to leave syria in the first place you know let's do like a throwback thursday or flat the US forces from the fight against isis we don't we are not going to have troops on the ground monitoring the situation we have isis prisoners that were unleashed throughout president was rolled and he asked are we so weak and inept so just talk about about what this means in terms of US influence it wasn't a great day and then we acted this agreement really means it turkey didn't illegal land grab the kurds are being pushed out of territory later in this kind of situation which is unheard of to think of vladimir putin could be an unbiased mediator in anything but he's the one the kurds have turned to he's who bashar al-assad we don't have the leverage to do anything i mean president trump has campaigned still campaigning on fighting isis right that has been one of his core points he just whipped a new as being able to exert influence abroad so you what you just said was that you call it a surrender agreement not a ceasefire and that's a theme that we're hearing from a lot of people with turkey for a supposed cease fire a great day for civilization was it it was an awful day for civilization first office we're finding out today ought to counter isis or to protect the kurds is really gone we don't have a dog in the fight anymore and that's why we're seeing actors vladimir putin claimed that they'll be the media whistle best and president trump did a victory lap before even seeing this agreement withhold second michael many people have died i work with entitled who actually voted by the full house that's likely yeah i haven't been i think that that is everybody's dream objective that's you guys you're not the enemies of the people you're the people's best friend tom jefferson knew it i liked it what everyone did you know that too back friday all the way to christmas of last year when he was on the phone with air to air duan told him to leave syria and he said okay catching all of his generals by surprise inevitable in the end that the syrian defense forces who we were assisting were inextricably inter twined with the p has turned to because the US is no longer able to exert influence in you know it's not just a question of the US is no longer able to exert influence i am fast forward to this latest bockel air john again felt compelled like he could go ahead with this invasion the white house and said that trump did ak a terrorist group that is a threat to turkey a the turks have been complaining about this for years saying that it was instead they didn't do that and he went forward i mean there are people who have argued including some with whom you served in government who say that this was they had months if not years to convince air to one that the cost benefit analysis is going into syria was unacceptable to air to one to mitigate their security concerns does not equal allowing turkey to invade syria reportedly conduct war crimes on at at the time to prevent that incursion or invasion well for starters he shouldn't have sent him a letter like it was written by a the unicef at least four children were killed by turkish forces seventy thousand children have been displaced aired on may have committed war crimes spill even based on the i import exports like for example sanctioning the ministry of defense ministry of natural resources the ministry of finance all the things that the white house started to do after the invasion already started should've happened weeks ago i mean trump said i think it was yesterday or the day before well this turkish invasion wasn't a surprise that makes us so much worse powerball to have a terrorist group that threatens our people that is conducted attacks on our country on our border and that we need them cleared out and all these letters to the intelligence community policy professionals to ensure that they had their desired impact in the first instance if someone took them seriously and second that they laid out that our support for the syrian defence forces was going to lead to an inevitable clash on this issue isn't that critique i don't i don't buy that not endorse the operation did not endorse as a heck of a lot different than stopped so if you're at the NFC at the time and you knew that aired awan was intent on doing this and you were advising the national security advisor in the president what should the president in a situation like that have done loss that we are going to impose on you and the president should have laid out costs that were completely unpalatable aired one like for example raising terrorists and stealing aluminum a second grader and that many of us not fake that certainly looked like a green light to me tough guy seriously back in the day we used to clear i elements within within the kurdish population in syria it was not inevitable that turkey was going to steamroll their way into syria and do whatever the last few days in turkey just did whatever they wanted we supposedly impose sanctions and yesterday president trump said we're lifting them despite the fact front for the PK k. a terrorist group considered a considerate terrace group by both the united states government and turkey i don't accept that no you don't news and basically do whatever they want there could have been negotiations such that we tried to help turkey address some real security concerns related to at the white PG is a front for the PK k. i think that the white PJ has done important work with us to counter isis and i think that a active level under the executive order the president trump announced earlier this week we need to hold turkey accountable for what they've already done so a certain amount of their terms and that's a key point we didn't put any restrictions on what they did and i don't think michael that president trump really cared he said he didn't care you don't wanna i jerk creating creating a set of a set of false choices this trying to work with turkey wanted that's a that's a that's giving everything to turkey and getting back to your original point that the US doesn't have any influence we open the door for turkey to do this on syrian government forces in the region both of whom are committed to fighting isis as well is this such a blow to the who says militants escaping from jails isis milton's conducting terrorist attacks and if you have turkish forces and you have a mike pompeo and vice president pence right that's that's the worst thing that he suffered so that pretty much guarantees that he's just going to keep doing what he's doing which is being aired turkey violated international long conducted work do you accept that the white PG which is a major part of the f. is in fact a -secutive branch sanctions should go forward again to punish turkey and we have to figure out a way to ensure that they uphold the ceasefire the only way ended the day there's one US interest in that region right now and that is making sure that is that there's no resurgence of cost that were convincing what the president should have done is get on the phone with aragon and tell him ahead of this operation if you go forward with this these are the assists and that isis militants don't conduct terrorist attacks against the united states other than that i think it's doubtful that american votes johnson negotiation with the turks and with the white PG and with the united states could have looked at ways to address turkish concerns but i don't think that we can american interest in the region is related to our ability to convincingly being ally and i think that you know the kurds is something that's hard for americans odors to understand but the fact that we turned our back on a partner on the ground the fact that we announced a withdrawal of forces from syria without consulting with the wants to what we need to do is punish him for what he's done and credibly layout costs if he doesn't uphold this this this agreement i adopt air to one's talking points and just say that the white kaji is one for one the PKK okay so now that we are in this mess what should be done about it can congress do what kind of pressure can be put on the administration to mitigate the damage that's already been done well congress shed move ahead with their sanctions and at the global coalition to defeat isis that is going to have an adverse impact on arab -bility to fight anywhere in the world at any time so i hope that the american people can they launched attacks against the united states issue courses whether they launch attacks against europe as well which is much closer proximity to syria that's not going to incentivize aired on to do anything differently than what he's been doing already right the the worst thing that air want has suffered through so far is a visit from understand that a little bit well with respect to your question about isis i think that someone unknowable the turkish forces are likely going to be preoccupied with dealing with the kurds unfortunate skin in the game the way we do the

european union president investigator mulvaney chief of staff mike gaba yahoo dan kleinman editor in chief ninety percent three hundred ninety one milli one hundred percent two years one hand milton