17 Burst results for "David Beethoven"

"david beethoven" Discussed on C-SPAN Radio

C-SPAN Radio

13:33 min | 2 years ago

"david beethoven" Discussed on C-SPAN Radio

"A few years ago. There was a case regarding. Gay person being refused service by Baker. And I think the supreme court ruled in favor of the bigger because it was his right? So be. Whether it be beneficial. If like people were allowed to reject does a certain in this can because. Won't necessarily do harm to society rather to the to the business itself. And we encourage those who are more welcome and opening to do better because before the civil rights movement. Black businesses were doing mainly successful because white business owners would refuse service to black. So I was wondering if we route to lake implement Sunday like again that would motivate black to establish their own institutions rather than having to rely on those who really don't like the black community are forced to get services to them. So I don't know if I I sort of by that theory entirely often hear that theory. I think if you look at fraternal societies mutual aid, you find him thriving among all sorts of different groups, including native native born whites. So you have that if you have I guess you'd say motivation, right and the welfare state to a great extent destroys that motivation. If nobody else is going to do it. But you. That that's going to lead people to be resourceful. People are a lot more resourceful than we than we than we give them credit for. There's a lot of good. There's a lot of good evidence that a lot in the more effective black businessmen at the time such as SP four actually said, look, we've got a black market here. But I'm going to try to reach out to the white market. And that's one of the things fuller did and a good percentage of his employees because he had that attitude. He sort of said, look, this is the future we're white. Interestingly enough, it's not often written about. So I think that that has been over emphasized a bit because you see this mutual aid entrepreneurship thrive. Among a lot of the immigrant communities that didn't face that same kind of barrier. Does another question back there. I I've read I think the freemen publication of fee foundation economic education that is story. What is it? That Rosa puck was that person was that the first personal encounter situation. Not having a seat another black woman, and she was arrested and the end of ICT speakers up. However, this woman was that photogenic, and she was not taken it. So they said we got a native narrative we're going to have to find the right person. So I don't know if the stories Papa fill it's history. What I want to say is that you talk about entrepreneurship blacks. I rented this let's show blood several years ago. And they said that. New York, they had a parallel society. Most plot city had sided with blacks at these businesses compete with the whites but provides black customers discrimination city. I think it was thirty seven daily newspapers at the time, and because of the rise of the civil rights movement. Revolution. And and you know. Marxism or that. And even the we'll certainly the great society. These people they new generation did I want to follow the emotion. Like acting as they say. So do you find any validity say, yeah, I do. And what happens in the nineteen sixties is very tragic because you're getting the great society one of the things they're doing is. They're trying to help allegedly help small business help black businesses. And a lot of money is poured in and then the money dries up and a lot of these efforts collapse. So it is is rather. There's some tragic examples there, you're early point is interesting about about, Rosa Parks. Yeah. There is some evidence that you know, she was sort of the perfect example there were many people before that or refuse to give up there seat the NWEA. Interestingly enough was not at all interested in the Montgomery bus boycott, initially. They litter latched into it because king's original demand was not to integrate the buses, but. To let blacks from the rear from the front, and nobody would have to give up there seat. They'd fill up both sides, and the N CPI was committed to an agenda of immigration of integration. And didn't think that was good enough. Then the boycott started to take off and they joined it, but that was the original demand. And it wasn't the end of lease EP so much with the boycotters in Montgomery, really said look parts is dream come true for us because she's such a sympathetic figure, and there were other people. Jackie Robinson, for example, berry baseball player in the forties. We refuse to give up his seat. Marie. She's being radio programming from Friday the front here. More the back. David. Here's from David Beethoven of independence institute along with Ben. We'll chip think you've been in this business very long time now as as an historian and writing in this area, and of course, they were bombarded with the lenses of victimization and racial things. That's that's the way we look at the world. What's your assessment of your scholarship and others? Is it taking hold at all about talking about a black entrepreneurs who refuse to be victims or just approachable differently? There are some very good scholars out there like Jonathan bean who did a book published by the institute, independent institute is written about this subject. There are some work out there. But I'm rather disappointed by really how little there is not only an entrepreneurship neutral aid more workers belong to fraternal societies than unions yet, we have a room full of rooms full of books on labor unions relatively little on fraternal societies and their role, especially in the black community. I mean, this used to be considered almost a stereotype if you look at the old Amos and Andy show is almost the stereotype, oh, African Americans. They always joining lodges all the time. Well, it's a stereotype has some truth. There was a lot of social organization a lot of mutual aid groups yet. I can count on the fingers maybe two hands maybe less than that. Work that has really been done on that in any depth. So it's rather sad. But I think it's a great opportunity for historians. But part of the problem is the field of history is is doesn't really provide rewards as much as should for people to do work in those areas. We have a question upfront here microphone coming to you. Hi there. It seems to me from the presentation that it's clear that Dr Howard was an influential character and influential organizer and yet in modern discussions about civil rights. We don't hear a lot about him. Why do you think that is? And do you think that has anything to do with any ideological differences between many civil rights leaders that are referenced today? Thank you. I think that's almost inescapable conclusion that that plays a part in it. Dr howard. When he died in one thousand nine hundred seventy six it was hardly covered by any anybody. And a lot of that had to do at that time is Corey was pointed out and others have been pointing out. Entrepreneurship was really kind of viewed negatively were exploiters you wear the black whose Wasi and all that. So what Howard represented was viewed negatively for those reasons? So I think that that has a lot a lot to do with it Howard was Republican conservative. I really don't think he was. In so many different ways. He's for legalization of prostitution, for example. He was very war. But he was a Republican. And so he was sort of pushing that angle because the party had a little bit more appeal for him because it was more committed to those. Seem to be to the business values. He supported but. Yeah, he's been a forgotten figure. And I think a lot of it has to do with the biases of historians. He doesn't fit our mom. He's an entrepreneur comes out of it. He that facilitates him it just doesn't fit the model. And so I keep getting people saying who's that guy? And I think my standard speech to convince them that he's actually important. He is critically important. He is not some side figure. He is a founder of the civil rights movement. Mentioned other people like I said Fannie, Lou Hamer Medgar Evers, they wouldn't have been we wouldn't have heard of them without Dr Howard. He's the guy brought the man. One more question over over here. Thank you, David. Just a little bit about the subject as far as the. Division between. Booker T, Washington, and w boys with regards to where the black community we go and how we get there. As far as liberty were sufficient self sufficiency and things of that nature kind of curious what the strategic debates were at the time as far as what they saw would be the should she future failures of the course of the other. If the other action was taken. So what was Washington's viewpoint of the boys future? If the path of of of America in black history, when the course devoid wanted to go versus the way that Washington wanted to go, I think a lot of that was a turf battle a lot of it was personal do boys knew full. Well, that Washington was the main guy funding lawsuits. I guess disenfranchisement and Jim crow. In fact, he went to do boys. When do boys was refused service on a Pullman car, basically said, hey, we'll support a lawsuit. But Washington couldn't say it because if Washington had gone public. I'm not kidding. In one thousand nine hundred ten and said. You know, we're pressing voter rights, and he did say things like that. But if he'd been really really in your face about it. Tuskegee which by the way was the largest. College in the south larger than the university of Alabama more students, a lot of people don't know that would have been burned to the ground and the faculty would have been lynched. He was very very very difficult situation. So he had to take it on the chin. He couldn't come back to the boys and say look guy, I'm the one that's doing all of this. So I think that that whole debate is a little problematic. When you really see what Washington is doing? Due boys is argument, basically is this is a dead end. We're losing our rights. Washington strategy isn't gonna go anywhere. Well, Washington had a multi-track strategies. I kind of is a very good book on this called up from history by Jeff Norell who looks into this debate in some detail. And I think the debate is just doesn't work as a real explanation of what's going on between them. I'm sure if I'm answering your question, but. So one of the key things, I'm kind of taking away from this as the importance of independence, the importance of having some saturate the community economic power to some extent. But also self defense was was a key part of that as well. Was Dr Howard involved with. Try to promote those values in other communities as well outside of the Mississippi. Delta mean, self defense, he was an example. Right. And you know, he's he's got enough time doing it in Mississippi. But the good thing is that there's a black uncultured, and this is not written about still very much of their people and even in Alabama. You've got county south at a very poor people still hunt for food, predominantly black counties..

Dr Howard Washington Montgomery David Beethoven Baker Rosa Parks Jonathan bean Jackie Robinson Mississippi Rosa puck baseball Booker T Jeff Norell NWEA New York prostitution king Marie
"david beethoven" Discussed on Talk 650 KSTE

Talk 650 KSTE

06:21 min | 2 years ago

"david beethoven" Discussed on Talk 650 KSTE

"Five zero JIMBO one eight, six, six five zero, five, four, six, two, six, David Beethoven our, guest and we're looking at the reopening of the Emmett till investigation a murder case that occurred in the Mississippi delta in nineteen fifty. Five initially that was when the crime was committed and now decades later we are relooking at that era in an effort to see if after all of that time there are cases which can be brought and as our guest David beta of the independent institute in the university of Alabama, notes probably this amounts to to too little too. Late is it the thought that counts I suppose I think it might have, been more productive to of course that was somewhat. Dumb at the FBI investigations but perhaps to do, a second investigation to try to get more, information I'm I'm just? Of the opinion that a prosecution is now calling to, occur, in this case and because there, just, isn't the evidence, is, not, there, you, know, she she's not. Showing on tape saying me say there's no evidence that she said them on tape and you need you would need that I think. Something, like that to really bring a prosecution. So is it case, of of meaning well of showing our hearts in the right place I mean I I don't, mean to to sarcastically put down the effort but I'm not, quite sure what we're doing here if if we are doing something, akin to that if we're not actually approaching a. Meaningful prosecution what are we doing It could be you know I mean if you wanna take a cynical view could be. Seen as, a political move to to you know get, get, black support I don't know I suspect it's more complicated than that I be interested in. Who signed off on this and who's I did Jeff. Sessions or presumably he would have signed? Off, on it but who where did it come. From it, could, just be somebody read the book and said look we, got a case here and just just plowed ahead. Without really sort of doing the spadework initially looking, into it a little bit more closely for, those might have been Might have been the way to do it is you know I don't know how investigations work to look at it and more quiet wait and see is there a I. Don't know if anybody tried. To do that I'm not sure what these. Days the civil rights division of the, Justice department, looks into I mean the law is settled the law is is old it has been around for quite some time. And if, you engage in racial discrimination this country you'd better not. Get caught because if you are caught your almost certainly going, to lose, and the court of law so I I'm not sure what they do, over in that. Division these days Well you, would think that you know they have limited manpower and like. I say I think if you were to look at the sixties and the seventies when you you know you? Did have a lot of clan violence I mean. The clan made its big comebacks in the fifties the clan was a pretty weak organization. In the, south it was sorta. The extreme group to citizens. Councils with the main lunch but it made. A big comeback and there was a, lot of, islands in the sixties and I would think some of that could be looked into and if you want to find. Some cases, to prosecute that you would you'd be more likely to find them How activists the clan, today I mean you don't really hear that much about them you don't hear about, about for, example cross burnings and the like I remember. At one, time back this would have been I suppose about. The seventies that I came across a story which I. Thought was just astounding but the clan was so desperate for membership that. They had put forward a call, for all white Christians including Catholics to join in the, battle for racial salvation or somewhat however they put it but. I remember thinking at the time of you guys are so desperate that you've got to include Catholics you're hurting I think they are hurting Tuscaloosa where, I'm from was you know the client was pretty powerful in, the sixties, now and they would have you know hang out that they would meet mirror but they're highly, fragmented there's a lot. Of different clans and this is a good thing that I think we can be satisfied about it that one. One groups, like this do demonstrations what they tend to. Attract as maybe six hundred, people or, something like that and the counter demonstrators are are usually in, the in the thousands, so I think that that is you know there is a weakness now you could say that. There should be hidden support out there but as far as them mobilizing successfully as they once dead you, know go back to the twenties when you had millions of people, mclamb and the state. Of Indiana you had one point you had thousands who marched down Pennsylvania Avenue the route taken by a, newly inaugurated Presidents They controlled major political, candidates and they were a powerful organization that twenty which they were brought down again during that. Time 'cause, elbow lot of scandals and a lot of internal dissension and that's what the Klan. Is often its worst. Enemy we have a lot of people strong egos and unsavory characters get involved and all all sorts of saying that embarrass the organization in cover up. Stuff in the near example of. Jews for, example Lewis joined the loop become leaders of the. Clan then this comes out and they're all embarrassed, by, well you, know My Catholic case carried one step further I mean it's getting to the. Point where, you see the clan may have to start burning crosses on the lawns of left-handed. People I'm not quite. Sure how how far this goes back I want to mention some about our guests book TRM Howard because I suspect there are still an awful lot. Of people who frankly have never. Heard the, name and it is a name of which you. Should be aware we'll be back in just a, moment,.

university of Alabama FBI David Beethoven David beta Mississippi murder Emmett Justice department Tuscaloosa Jeff Indiana Howard Lewis
"david beethoven" Discussed on Talk 650 KSTE

Talk 650 KSTE

09:13 min | 2 years ago

"david beethoven" Discussed on Talk 650 KSTE

"Marathon fueling the American spirit Welcome back to Jim, Bohannon show with our guest David veto a research fellow at the independent institute and professor of history. At, the university, of Alabama Tuscaloosa Abby co, author, of TRM Howard. Doctor. Entrepreneur and civil rights pioneer we're talking about a reopening of the Emmett till murder case yes of the sixty three years ago now Clearly as you note witnesses potential, defendants in, the like in many cases, dead, this is a. Test. Of the Justice department charge of investigating long ago burgers that are thought to have been racially motivated. And The. Justice department in, the, last ten, years it's efforts led to five, successful prosecutions glue that of, Edgar Ray Killen involved in the murders of the three. Civil rights workers in the Mississippi who died in prison this past year, that. Of course was the subject of the movie Mississippi burning starring Gene Hackman which some of you may have seen over the years So the last. Successful prosecution came eight years ago when a former Alabama, state trooper was convicted of manslaughter for the killing of one Jimmy Lee Jackson or protesters debt led to the Selma to Montgomery March again to the extent that that. That the law, still applies that's fine and good in the case, of murder I don't suppose, that there is ever a statute of limitations is there Now I'm not a lawyer but no I don't I don't believe there then again there's also the the other. Notion that there are federal civil rights laws involved here that. In fact it would be quite possible to be tried twice in one of these cases once for the state law of committing murder and once, for the federal law involving the violation of someone's civil rights. And, I believe the courts have held that such trials are. For two different crimes. And therefore do not constitute. Double jeopardy that's as I recall my memory of the reading. Of this So in other words it's not an academic exercise, our actor things that presumably. Can be done in the in these cases there would potentially be a, lot of cases out there of course we're talking like, you said, about a sixty, three year, old case in in that particular case only know, one person that could, be prosecuted, all the. Law enforcement people are. Gone and, again there was a cover up you know there were there were employees black employees of milem and, Brian who were involved in the crime they were pretty much compelled to participate my wife and I interviewed one of them before he died but they're all gone now and you know the people. That covered up are pretty much all gone but there are many sort of read more recent cases you know in the. Sixties for example where a lot of people still are around So the so this evidence continuing and again the the pickings, as you might expect are so much slim but nonetheless, have been, some cases Mitch, factor there, have been a successful reopening the Justice department Had this new inquiry first reported by the Associated. Press last began a significant rule of the review of the till case fourteen years ago prosecutors audibly determined, that the statute of limitations let, them without. Any charges they could pursue in, a federal court Be FBI still conducted an inquiry which included an exclamation, of the emit immortals body from an Illinois cemetery for about two years to settle whether there were any state crimes that could still. Be prosecuted I I'm, not sure other than than murder I'm not sure what crimes we could be talking about. Here and it was interesting that prosecutors determined that. The statute of limitations had left without any charges they could pursue in a federal court if I'm not mistaken anybody involved in this had. Already been tried for murder in a state court and acquitted and of course any retrial would be double jeopardy If there's no federal Charge that that is, still around since obviously then statutes of limitations apply to the the civil rights laws that that we discussed a second ago while I find. This of academic interest I'm not quite sure where the FBI is looking. Into this at all, you do have, Caroline like, I said Brian Dunham and. She. Was never tried okay so that would be a? Case you, could bring I I unless we get a confession from her. Or something like that I think, that that extremely unlikely but I suppose it's a possibility and it's probably the main reason they reopened, this investigation I would I would guess, in, that particular case again this is a case of of Justice delayed beyond the point of of of reasonably getting, anything done and well I suppose it makes. Us all feel better the. Something is being, investigated, I must say frankly given the, circumstances we've discussed tonight I'm not sure that I find this to be Particularly efficient use of limited federal resources your thoughts I, tend to agree with you I think there are a lot of cases that are you know where you do have some you know you, you do have some potential I just don't see it here I think. It may be was, a spur of, the moment, decision maybe somebody read Timothy. Tyson's. Which again now questions have been called about what? He but, he found in that book and said oh okay we have. A confession here let's go after, this case well turns out they really did so I think somebody maybe didn't think to think this, through I understand why they're doing it, I, just think that that's the target is not the best target it this late day are there any state investigations, that that go back this far in any. Any part of the country. That that try, to, look at at circumstances that were, improperly handled at the time or is this strictly As far as you? Know a federal effort I. Don't know then he stayed investigations going on, certainly there, are cases going back even further but, you you, have to look at examples, like you, know holocaust guy now that's being you know ninety five year old that's. Being sent back, to Germany to, be tried so you know it does happen. But I can't think of any state investigations go to go, back that far The the circumstances of course of the. The, till, case I suppose we're we're instrumental given that it was nineteen fifty five and of course I I don't recall if this was before or after the. Montgomery Alabama bus boycott which really vaulted, Dr Martin Luther King junior to national prominence. Do you recall there two are linked together, Dr TRM Howard, we talked about last, time was a prominent civil rights bigger in Mississippi well anyway he went on. A national speaking tour only. Three days after the jury's acquittal he predicted. That, it, was going to. Be an acquittal in ROY Wilkins. The n. w. c. p. basically said I, want you, to go around the country he was, getting crowds, and cities like Baltimore Madison, Square Garden, ten twenty thousand people bigger crowds than anyone really had gotten in recent. Memory for a, civil rights 'cause, it was building up a lot of pressure. Was attacking the FBI well anyway A lesser known part of it tour was. In November twenty, seventh nineteen fifty five in Montgomery Alabama, and his host, was Martin Luther King then unknown nationally Rosa Parks. Was in the, audience, and three days later Rosa Parks refused to her seat she, made quite clear, that the reason she refused to give up her seat was. She was thinking of? Emmett till well Howard speech. Only three days before that had been the focus that had been the first event. Montgomerie, to, really focus on that issue so they the the issues you know the till case I think you can find it pretty clear link to the Montgomery. Bus boycott and of course then the, decision was to organize a movement around Rosa. Parks action and king was chosen to head, that we're going, to come back and, talk more about that with our guest David Beethoven again he's the author of. TRM Howard will reintroduce you. To him as well and be back in a, moment If you have freedom of speech My concern is sucker minnows talks.

murder Justice department Montgomery Alabama Dr TRM Howard Alabama FBI TRM Howard Mississippi Emmett David Beethoven Martin Luther King Brian Dunham professor of history Edgar Ray Killen Be FBI Rosa Parks Gene Hackman Jimmy Lee Jackson
"david beethoven" Discussed on Talk 650 KSTE

Talk 650 KSTE

09:47 min | 2 years ago

"david beethoven" Discussed on Talk 650 KSTE

"Says tonight we're going to be talking about the Justice department reopening an inquiry into the murder of Emmett, till that investigation to be discussed with us tonight by David Beethoven research fellow at the independent institute a professor, of history at the university of Alabama, Tuscaloosa. Because other of TRM Howard. Doctor entrepreneur and civil rights pioneer good evening Mr. Beethoven's good evening Tell US. F for those who, are not the imminently familiar. That, most of us can remember the name of immaterial and it had to do with terrible racial injustice, and frankly that's probably about as far as most of us get in terms of. Of just. Exactly what. The name implies well it's a long story so, I'll give, you, the bare bones version Emmett till, was, a fourteen year, old, boy, from, Chicago this. Was one thousand nine hundred fifty five. And every summer or so he would come to, Mississippi to visit his great uncle lived on a cotton, plantation and was picking cotton and he helped them out it was hard work but he came every year well one year he he came and, until and a bunch of friends went to a store crossroads store and there was a, beautiful white woman behind, the counter and we don't know exactly What happened but, I think the friends sorta. Dared him to go in. There and talk to her we don't know what he said it wasn't anything you know might have been something as simple as he you know he ended money tour directly rather than put. It you, know put it on the counter who knows exactly what happened some people say that he gave a wolf whistle. When, he left but yeah, he he left well word got around someone. Passed the message to the husband of this woman behind. The counter he he was offended by it he went by to his. Brother who was a real tough mean character and said you know what do I do and his brothers, had you gotta get revenge. And so they kidnap, till the middle of the. Night, and he apparently did not satisfy them they they you know they were going to beat him up, maybe but he didn't satisfy them so they took them, around they beat him severely And then eventually, they killed, him they dumped him in. The Tallahassee river but just. Through some fate basically there was it snagged on a vine underneath. He was, tied to a. Cotton, gin old cotton. Gibb big big things hope was to conceal their crime to get into. The, bottom of the river but. It snagged like I said a fisherman sought the body was horribly horribly disfigured the, two brothers, admitted that they take? Until they claim they let him go but. They were charged with murder put on trial and acquitted in less than an hour and the. Jury joked, member of, the jury joke that we would have taken, we wouldn't have taken that. Long we haven't gone out, to get some pop So that's. The a rough version, of the story but there's a, lot more to it than that of course there's a reason why it isn't in the immediate familiarity with most Americans in that it. Took place sixty three years ago. This was nineteen fifty-five that this took place Yes correct It was and it was on the eve of the civil. Rights, movement well they're always have been civil rights movement was on the eve of. The movement we associate with Martin Luther King and played a big role. In spurring that? Movement, on In in any event certainly a lot. Of time has passed I'm not even sure how many of the defendants are still alive Just for the record the only. One that I know of and they were it was a conspiracy there were more than, two people involved that has been shown the, only possible, person to charge that I. Know of is the wife that you. Know pretty lady that was behind the counter Juanita Juanita Bryant Donna Was in her eighties. I frankly don't think that will happen but that is the only person that could possibly be charged at this point is still alive was involved will they say of course the Justice delayed. Is Justice deferred this particular case while I certainly find it a of academic interest to find out what actually took place I'm not sure. What the purpose of this particular investigation is given as you say that the wheels of, Justice apparently don't have a lot of targets, to turn, toward Well I had a little bit of, an idea on that she was interviewed by. Historian named Timothy Tyson. Who did extensive interviews with her and actually you know, had some interesting things to say about black French it added a, child and, various things like that but. One of the things she said to, him was sort of admitted that she was knew about the crime and so forth had some, involvement in. It but then, when that, was they've looked at that, now and it is historian has hours of interview with her on tape but he didn't get that part on. Tape so just his word so I just don't see her being prosecuted because it you know if she did say he didn't get it and he you know he You know and he needs evidence the, FBI needs evidence but I think that's why the case was reopened, because of, that One eight six six, five zero JIMBO is our number one. Eight six six five zero five four, six two six it it did of course staggered the the nation. At the time if you were around at that time you may recall that the the boy had an open coffin funeral I think that was, at the insistence of. The mother if I'm not mistaken to to let, the world see what they did to my, boy something of that nature and although the. The the photographs got widespread publication but they're they're out there and They got a lot of play in the, black, oppressed, on, the. Cover of jet magazine and, Chicago defender, so, people like Mohammed, Ali, if, you're, a young. Black person at that, time you good chance who saw those. Photos and it had a big impact, I I have seen the photos they they're pretty gruesome okay I. Mean there's no no no getting around that fact and the the open cashier was probably something that was was worth doing not just to quote, for the shock value. As much I guess, as to to make manifest, what it, actually happened to immaterial Now. The. Justice department, has not, commented, on. All of this but, it appears that the government chose to devote new attention to the case after the central with us as you mentioned Carolyn Bryant, Donham recanted, part of her account of what actually happened at that time Again I think the facts at the time pretty much spoke for themselves when when the the person on the jury said that we wouldn't have taken a whole hour to. Acquit we haven't gone out for a soda. Pop so, again I'm not exactly sure quite what Is I guess to be to be accomplished here baby I grant we should not, forget part of our, our terrible past. But there aren't a whole lot of of lynchings cross burnings in the. Like taking place these days Mississippi the state in which this happened today has the. The highest number of elected officials of, color in the entire country not just per capita the highest number so perhaps this might have had greater importance that had been brought. Forward let's say in, nineteen sixty, five or nineteen seventy five than in. Two. Thousand eighteen you're nineteen fifty-five when people, like Howard you know. Written about and others were pointing out that the evidence was that there were more than two people involved and so forth and I think they're you know that was the. Time to do it now I will say. This several, years ago the FBI did real Hilton. The investigation uncovered a lot of material, and we have a pretty good idea what happened pretty good idea who was involved so that is been incredibly useful now that we. Have a bigger picture, of what, actually happened there and the cover up. The. Did occur at the time sheriff local, law enforcement and others Yeah Eight six, six five zero JIMBO our number one eight six, six five zero, five, four, six, two. Six we're talking with David beta is a research fellow at the independent, institute a professor of history of the university of Alabama. Tuscaloosa the is the co author of the book TRM Howard doctor, entrepreneur and the civil rights pioneer and we'll come back and talk some more of the Bohannon show in just a. Moment the national debt is now over twenty trillion. Dollars what happens next rising inflation drops in the dollar's. Value some experts say another crashes. Coming you can fight this not with stocks.

university of Alabama Emmett Justice department murder Justice Mississippi Chicago Tuscaloosa research fellow David Beethoven TRM Howard Juanita Juanita Bryant Donna professor of history US Howard Martin Luther King Timothy Tyson Tallahassee river FBI
"david beethoven" Discussed on Talk 650 KSTE

Talk 650 KSTE

06:22 min | 2 years ago

"david beethoven" Discussed on Talk 650 KSTE

"Eight six six five zero five four six two six David Beethoven our guest and we're looking at the, reopening, of, the Emmett. Till investigation a murder case that. Occurred in the Mississippi delta in nineteen fifty five initially that was, when the. The crime was committed and now decades. Later we are relooking at that. Era in an effort to see if after all of that time there are cases which can be brought And as our. Guest David beta of, the independent institute in the university of Alabama notes probably this amounts to to too little too, late is it the thought that counts I suppose I. Think it might have been more productive to of course that was somewhat dumb with the FBI investigations but perhaps to do a second investigation to try. To get more, information I'm I'm just of. The opinion that. A prosecution is now calling to occur in this case and because there just isn't the. Evidence is not there you know she she's not. Shown on tape same needs things there's? No, evidence that she said them on tape and. You need, you, would need that I think something like that to really, the prosecution so is it case of of meaning. Well of showing our hearts in the right place, I mean I I don't mean to to, sarcastically put down the? Effort but I'm not, quite sure what we're doing here if if we are doing something, akin to that if we're not actually approaching a. Meaningful prosecution what are we doing It could be you know I mean if you wanna take. A cynical view, could just be seen as, a political move. To to you know get get black support I don't know I suspect it's more complicated. Than that I I'd be interested in who signed. Off on this and who's Jeff Sessions? Or, presumably he would have signed off on it. But who, where, did it come from it could just be somebody read, the book and said look we got a case. Here and just just plowed ahead without really sort, of doing the spadework initially looking into it, more closely for those Might have been the way to do it as investigations work to look at it or quiet wait and see is there a I don't know. If anybody, tried to do that. Yeah I'm not sure. What these days the civil rights division of. The Justice department looks into I mean the law is settled, the law is old it has been around for quite some time and if you engage in the racial. Discrimination in, this country you'd better not get caught because if you. Are caught your almost certainly going to lose the inequality law so, I I'm not sure what they do, over in that. Division these days Well you would, think that you know they have limited manpower and like I. Say I think if you were to look at the sixties and the seventies when you you know you did? Have a lot of clan violence I mean the. Clan, made its big comebacks in the fifties the clan was a pretty weak organization in the. South it, was sort of the. Extreme group to citizens. Councils were the main lunch but it made. His big comeback and there was a lot of islands from, the sixties and I would think some of that could be looked into and if you want to find. Some cases, to prosecute that you would you'd be more likely to find them How activists the, clan today I mean you don't really hear that much about them you don't hear, about about, for example cross burnings and the like I. Remember at, one time back this would have been I suppose. About the seventies that I came across a story which. I thought was just astounding but the clan was so desperate for membership that, they had put forward a call, for all white Christians including Catholics to join in the, battle for racial salvation or somewhat however they put it but. I remember thinking at the time if you guys are so desperate that you've got to include Catholics you're hurting I, think they are hurting I mean collusive where. I'm from was you know, the client, was pretty powerful in the sixties now and they would have, you know hanging out, so that they would meet but but they're highly fragmented there's a lot of different clans and. This is a good thing that I think we can be satisfied about that one when groups like this, do demonstrations what they tend to attract as maybe six hundred people, or something like that. And the the counter demonstrators are are usually in the in the thousands so I think that that is, you know There. Is. A weakness now you could say that there should be hidden support out there but as far as them mobilizing successfully as they once dead you know go back to the twenties when you had. Millions of, people mclamb in the state of Indiana at one. Point you had thousands who. Marched down, Pennsylvania Avenue the route taken by a newly inaugurated president oh and they controlled major political candidates and they were, a powerful, organization that twenty which they were brought, down again during that time. Because a lot of scandals a lot of internal dissension and that's what the Klan is often its worst enemy is we have a lot of, people strong egos and unsavory characters get involved and all all sorts of things that embarrass. The organization in cover up stopping their example of Jews for example Lewis. Joined the loop become leaders of, the clan You know and then. This comes, out and they're all, embarrassed by well you know My my Catholic case carried one step further I mean it's to the point where. The clan may have to start burning crosses on, the lawns, of left handed people I'm not quite sure how how, far, this goes We're going back I. Want to mention some about our guests. Book TRM Howard because I suspect there are still an. Awful lot, of people who frankly have never heard the name and it is the name of which you should be aware. We'll be back in just a moment this then.

university of Alabama Mississippi David Beethoven murder Emmett Justice department FBI David beta Klan Lewis Indiana Howard president
"david beethoven" Discussed on Talk 650 KSTE

Talk 650 KSTE

07:21 min | 2 years ago

"david beethoven" Discussed on Talk 650 KSTE

"As we look at the Justice department reopening the immaterial investigation again for you to have I had memory of this you've got to be of a certain age, my memory I must confess, is is not that vivid I was around but I was fairly. Young when when this whole thing happened it was the kind. Of thing that I was discussing probably in a school class somewhere as we we look back at. The euro we should try to. Put that era in some perspective we are talking about, nineteen fifty five this was a year after the Brown versus board of education supreme court case that, ruled that segregated schools were inherently unequal. Overturning the Plessey versus Ferguson, ruling that had happened in the previous century and had. Been the rule of law for quite some time if. You will settled law but it. Was Unsettled and that, is to our credit it was still. Ten years before the spate of civil rights legislation that would come out of of president Johnson who of course in nineteen fifty-five we'll still the Senate majority leader so this was very early in the civil rights movement your thoughts David beta on putting this in in some kind of, a timeline perspective Well there was a civil there was always a civil. Rights movement, you can go back to, the nineteen twenties and earlier, but it tended to be more local. Yet prominent local leaders you have one sort of national figure that kind. Of, dominated the Mississippi the figure that dominated nearly fifty s was was TRM Howard Neo very powerful, movement they a successful boycott at service stations refused to provide, restrooms to blacks for example one thousand nine hundred fifty two things happening like that but the movement really didn't, become nationalize I think it's fair to say still bar until. Martin king came along now the Brown versus board decision is interesting because Howard one set decision came down in Mississippi said we're going to be. The first state to comply with. It and he got a bunch of a school district. Petitioning parents, in school districts petitioning to integrate their schools Mississippi which is really the Belly of. The Jim crow beast and. They will ruthlessly smashed, you know you get. The newspapers we get a hold of. These petitions publish them in the newspaper and then people, were harassed until they took their names off with the Titians. So it was really quite literally put down early efforts to integrate the. Schools and by nineteen sixty in the deep south something like I, think one or. Two percent of schools were integrate it just been the whole stonewalling movement. And been, very successful this of course, was in the lower south, the upper sound was more ready to. Comply in the border state but the lower south they really dug their. Heels, in and my wife is African American and she attended a segregated school the nineteen seventies here, one hundred percent segregation again from the from a timeline standpoint. To keep in mind that the civil war itself had only been over for ninety years not not quite as, century you think back For example mighty years from today you go back to just. Before the great depression nineteen twenty eight and it's not that lead that long ago and of course ninety fifty five there. Were still a border to civil war veterans still alive in this. Country so again that that difference in perspective as well there. Had, been efforts, certainly at the legislative level. In congress most of the of quite unsuccessful in fact it wasn't, really until the the, death of of John Kennedy and the successful efforts by Lyndon Johnson that a a a spate of. Of civil rights laws, were enacted again ten years after this event on public accommodations and the like the biggest I suppose single revolution in our official treatment of civil rights. Since the passage of the. Thirteenth fourteenth fifteenth Amendments that, happened back in the eighteen sixties. So so, we were on the eve of so big stuff but at the time I'm not sure how many people in the, country in general were aware that. Something big was coming, I I think that the the there were probably more than a few, who thought, that Brown versus board of education was was an aberration not not the tip of the iceberg Yeah especially when there. Was, such a success with movement to resist it in the deep south there were signs of change though I mean Eisenhower put in a, Civil Rights Act in nineteen fifty seven That had some, effect Eisenhower integrated Washington DC this Columbia was segregated and that was. Sort of an unheralded accomplishment but he did that even before Brown integrated. The schools integrated other. Public, accommodation but for the most. Part the people in the deep south were resisting and, doing quite effectively but I think. Even they knew that. They were going to lose this eventually, I get statements well we can hold it. Off, we're gonna hold it off as long as we can but we're gonna lose this eventually. And that's the tragedy if they. Had had just, accommodated earlier they could have avoided a lot of, trouble Really believe that some of them said they did a lot. Of them did having said that and yes there was. Quote a lot of trouble as as you put it nonetheless. Given the depth of the changes that took place if you will the cleaning up. If you will a, virtually of post reconstruction era if you will. Yes it was a tragedy and there were, other cases besides immaterial there were. Certainly hundreds of people who, who died in this effort but it it seems to me that. In the the perspective of history for such a major change to take. Place, in society would. In, most countries of our size. That cost hundreds of thousands of lives it would have, been far far bloodier in that. Regard my thinking has. Always been that as unfortunate as it, was it could have been much much worse I agree and you yourself pointed out, that by you. Know, the Voting Rights Act. Come gin in berry quickly something like. Eighty percent of African Americans in Mississippi or vote and you're starting, to elect people office including Charles Evers who was brother of mega ever who was Charles and beggared work under Howard in mega been assassinated years before that and others to starting to get people you know. Elected officials now not you know romanticizing it but I. Think that you are right that a lot of change was. Made very rapidly and was substantial change One eight six six, five o. JIMBO one eight six, six, five, zero five four six two six more with our guest David Beethoven in just a moment the national debt is now over, twenty trillion. Dollars what happens next rising inflation drops in the dollar's. Value some experts say another crashes coming, you can fight this.

Mississippi Howard Neo Lyndon Johnson David Beethoven Brown Justice department Charles Evers Plessey Eisenhower Jim crow JIMBO Senate congress Titians Martin king Ferguson
"david beethoven" Discussed on Talk 650 KSTE

Talk 650 KSTE

09:47 min | 2 years ago

"david beethoven" Discussed on Talk 650 KSTE

"Says tonight we're going to be talking about the Justice department reopening an inquiry into the murder of Emmett till that investigation to be, discussed with us tonight by David Beethoven research fellow at. The independent institute a professor of history, at the university. Of Alabama Tuscaloosa Biko author of TRM. Howard doctor entrepreneur and civil rights pioneer good evening Mr. Beethoven's good evening Tell US F for those who, are not the imminently familiar. I, think most of us can remember the name of immaterial and ahead to do with a terrible racial, injustice and frankly that's probably about as far as most of us get in terms. Of of. Just exactly what the name implies well it's a long story so I'll. Give you the bare bones, version, Emmett till was a fourteen year, old, boy from Chicago, this, was, in, one thousand. Nine hundred fifty five and every. Summer or so he would come to Mississippi to, visit his great uncle who lived you know on a, cotton plantation and was picking cotton and he help them out was hard work but he came every year well one year he he came and, tell on a bunch of friends went to a store, crossroads store and there was a, beautiful, white woman behind. The counter and we don't know exactly What happened but I think the. Friends sorta dared him to, go in there and and talk tour we don't know what he said it wasn't. Anything you know might have been something as simple as he you know he ended money tour directly rather than. Put it, you know put it on the counter who knows exactly what happened some people say that he gave a wolf. Whistle, when he left but, yeah well he he he left well word. Got around someone passed the message to the husband of. This woman behind the counter he he was offended by it he went by. To his brother who was a real tough mean character and said, you know what do I do and his brothers said, you got to get revenge and so they, kidnapped till the middle of. The, night and he did not satisfy them they you know they were going to beat him up maybe, and but he didn't satisfy them so they took them, around they beat him severely And then, eventually they, killed him they dumped him. In the Tallahassee river but. Just through some fate basically there was it snagged on a buying. Underneath he. Was, tied, to, a cotton. Gin, old cotton gin. Big big things are hopeless to conceal their crime to get them into. The, bottom of the river but. It snagged like I said a fisherman sought the body was horribly horribly disfigured the, two brothers, admitted that they take? Until they claim they, let him go but they, were charged with murder put on trial and acquitted in less than an hour and the. Jury, joked member, of the jury joke that we would have taken we wouldn't have taken that. Long we had gone out, to get some pop So that's the. Rougher you know the story but. There's a lot more to it than that Of course there's a reason why it. Isn't in the immediate familiarity with most Americans. In that it took place sixty three years, ago this was nineteen fifty-five that this took place Yes correct It was and it was on the eve of the civil. Rights, movement well they're always been civil rights movement was on the eve. Of movement we associate with Martin Luther King and played a big role. In spurring. That, movement In. In any event certainly a lot of. Time has passed on not even sure how many of the defendants are still alive The only. One that I know of and there were it was a conspiracy there were more than two people involved that has been, shown the, only possible person to charge. That I know of is the wife that, pretty lady that was behind the counter Juanita Juanita Bryant Donham Who was in her eighties I frankly don't think, that, will, happen But that is the only person. That could possibly, be charged, at this point is still, alive involved will they say of course the Justice delayed is Justice deferred this particular case while I was really find. It a of academic interest to find out what actually took place I'm not sure what the purpose of this particular investigation is given as you say that the wheels. Of, Justice apparently don't have a lot of targets to turn. Toward well I had a little bit of, an idea on that she was, interviewed by, story named, Timothy Tyson who did extensive interviews with her and. Actually you know had some interesting things to say. About black friends she had added a child and things like that but one of the things she said to him was sort, of admitted that she was. Knew about the crime and so, forth had some involvement in it but then when that. Was they've they've looked at that now And. It is historian has hours of interview with her. On tape and he did get that part on tape so just his word so I just don't see her being prosecuted because. It you know if she, did say he didn't get it, and he you know he You know and he needs evidence the, FBI needs evidence but I think that's why the case was reopened, because of, that All. Right one eight six, six five o. jimbo's our number one. Eight six six five zero five four six two six it it did of course staggered the the nation. At the time if you were around at that time you may recall that the the boy had an open coffin funeral I think that was, at the insistence of. The mother if I'm not mistaken to to let, the world see what they did to my boy something of. That nature and although the the the photographs got widespread publication but they're they're out there and they got pretty. Grim complicated they got a, lot of play in the black oppress on, the cover of, jet magazine and the Chicago defender so people like, Mohammed Ali, if you're a young person at that time. You good chance you saw those photos and it at a big Impact, I have, seen the photos they they're pretty gruesome okay I. Mean there's no no no getting around that fact and the the open cashier was probably something that was was. Worth doing not just to, quote for the shock value as much I, guess as to, to make manifest what had actually happened to immaterial Now. The. Justice department, has not, commented, on. All of this but, it appears that the government chose to devote new attention to the case after the central with us as you mentioned Carolyn Bryant, Donham recanted, part of her account of what actually happened at that time Again I think the facts at the time pretty much spoke for themselves when when the the person the jury said that we wouldn't have taken a whole hour to. Acquit we had gone out for a soda. Pop so, again I'm not exactly sure quite what Is I guess to be to be accomplished here baby I grant we should not forget part, of our our terrible, past but there are a whole. Lot of of lynchings cross burnings in the like taking place these days. Mississippi the the state in which this happened today has the the highest number of elected officials. Of color in the, entire country not just per capita but the the the highest number so perhaps this might have had greater importance that had been brought. Forward let's say in, nineteen sixty, five or nineteen seventy five than in. Two. Thousand eighteen nineteen fifty-five when people I, Howard you know written. About and others were pointing out that the evidence was that there. Were more than two people involved and so forth and I think they're you know that was the. Time to do it now I will say. This several, years ago the FBI did we The investigation uncovered a. Lot of material and, we have a pretty good idea what happened pretty good idea who was involved so that is been incredibly useful now that we have. A bigger picture of, what actually, happened there and the cover up the. Did. Occur at the time the sheriff local, law enforcement and others Yeah Eight six six five o. JIMBO our number one eight six six five zero five four, six, two. Six we're talking with David. Beethoven he's a research fellow at the independent, institute a professor of history of the university of Alabama. Tuscaloosa the is the co author of the book TRM Howard Dr entrepeneurship and the civil rights pioneer and we'll come back and talk some more of the show in just a. Moment the national debt is now over twenty trillion. Dollars what happens next rising inflation drops in the dollar's. Value some experts say and other crashes. Coming you can fight this not with stocks.

professor of history David Beethoven Howard Dr entrepeneurship Juanita Juanita Bryant Donham Justice department murder Chicago Mississippi university of Alabama research fellow Emmett Alabama Justice Martin Luther King Timothy Tyson Tallahassee river FBI jet magazine
"david beethoven" Discussed on KTAR 92.3FM

KTAR 92.3FM

06:20 min | 2 years ago

"david beethoven" Discussed on KTAR 92.3FM

"Six, five, zero, five, four, six, two six David, Beethoven our guest and we're looking at the reopening of the immaterial investigation a murder case that occurred in the Mississippi delta. In nineteen fifty-five initially that was when the the crime was committed and now decades later we are relooking at that era in an effort to see if after all of that time there are cases which can be brought and as our guest David beta of the independent institute in the university, of Alabama notes probably this amounts to to too. Little too late is it the thought that, counts I suppose I think it might have been more productive to of course that, was, somewhat down with the FBI investigations, but, perhaps to do, a, second, investigation, to, try, to get more, information I'm I'm just of the opinion that a prosecution is now going to occur in this case and because there just. Isn't the evidence is not there you know she. She's not shown on tape saying these say there's no evidence that she said them on tape and you need you, would need that I think something like that to really burn, the prosecution so is it case of a meaning well of showing, our hearts in the right place I mean I. I don't mean to to sarcastically Put down the effort but I'm not quite sure what we're doing here if if we are, doing something. Akin to that if we're not actually approaching a, meaningful prosecution what are we doing it could be you, know I mean if you wanna take a cynical view could just be. Seen, as a political move to to you know get get black support I don't know I suspect it's more complicated than that I be interested in. Who signed off on this and who's I did Jeff Sessions, or presumably he would have signed off on it but who where did it come from. It could just be somebody read the book and said. Look we got a case here and? Just, just plowed ahead without really sort of doing? The Spade, work initially looking into it more closely For those might, have been might have been the way? To do it is you know I don't know how, investigations, work to look at it and more quiet wait and see is there a case I don't know if anybody tried to do that Yeah I'm not sure what these days the civil rights division of the Justice department looks into the law is, settled the, law is is old it has been around for quite some time and if you engage in racial discrimination in this country you'd better not get, caught because, if you are caught your almost certainly going to lose in a court, of law so. I I'm not sure? What they do over in that division these days Well you, would think that you know they have limited manpower and, like I say I think if you were to look at. The sixties and the seventies when you you know you did have a lot of clan violence I mean the? Clan, made its big comeback in the fifties the Klan was a pretty weak organization in the south it was sort. Of the extreme group to. Citizens councils were the main lunch but it. Made his big comeback and there was a lot of, violence in the sixties and I would think some of that could be looked into and if you want to find, some cases, to prosecute that you would you'd be more likely to. Find them How, activists clan today I mean you don't really hear that much about them you don't, hear about, about for example cross burnings in the like. I remember, at one time back this would have been I. Suppose about the seventies that I came across the story. Which I thought was just astounding but the clan was so desperate for membership, that they had put forward a, call for all white Christians including Catholics to join in, the battle for racial salvation or somewhat however they put it. But I remember thinking at the time you guys are so desperate that you've got to include Catholics you're hurting I think they are hurting Tuscaloosa where I'm from was, you know the client was pretty powerful in the sixties now, and they, would have you know hang out that they would meet but it they're highly fragmented there's a, lot of different clans, and this is a good thing that I think we can be satisfied about it that one one groups. Like this, do demonstrations what they tend to attract is. Maybe you know six hundred, people or, something like that and the the counter demonstrators are are usually, in the in the, thousands so I think that that is you know there is, a weakness now you could save. If there's hidden support out there but as far as them mobilizing successfully as they once dead you know, go back to the twenties when you had no yinzer people mclamb, in the state of. Indiana you at one point you had thousands who marched down Pennsylvania Avenue the route taken by a, newly inaugurated Residents They controlled major political, candidates and they were a powerful organization that. Twenty they were brought down again during that. Time 'cause a lot of scandals and a lot of internal dissension and if that's what the Klan is often its worst, enemy because you have a lot of people strong egos and unsavory characters get involved and all all sorts of things that embarrassed the organization in cover, up stopping their example of. Jews for, example Lewis joined the would become leaders of the clan And then. This comes, out and they're all embarrassed by well you know My Catholic case carried one step further I mean it's getting to the point where the. Clan may have to start burning crosses on the lawns, of left-handed people. I'm not quite sure how how far this goes anyway we're going back I want to mention some about our guests book TRM, Howard, because I suspect there are still an awful lot of people who frankly have never heard. The name and it is a name of, which you should be aware we'll be back in just, a, moment this.

Klan David beta FBI Clan Jeff Sessions Mississippi delta murder Alabama Justice department Tuscaloosa Indiana Lewis Beethoven Howard
"david beethoven" Discussed on KTAR 92.3FM

KTAR 92.3FM

08:44 min | 2 years ago

"david beethoven" Discussed on KTAR 92.3FM

"Welcome back to Jim Bohannon, show with our guest David veto a research fellow at the dependent institute and professor of history at. The, university of, Alabama Tuscaloosa Abby co author, of, TRM Howard doctor. Entrepreneur. And civil rights pioneer we're talking about a reopening of the Emmett till murder case yes of, sixty three years ago Now Clearly as you note witnesses potential defendants in the like in many, cases dead this is A test of the Justice department charge of. Investigating long ago murders that, are thought to have been racially motivated and the Justice department in the last ten years it's efforts have led to five successful prosecutions glue that of Edgar Ray killing. Involved in the, murders of the, three civil rights workers Nimitz sippy, who died in prison this, past year that of course was the subject of the. Movie Mississippi burning starring Gene Hackman which some of you may have seen over the years so the last successful prosecution came eight years ago when, a former Alabama state trooper was convicted of manslaughter for the. Killing, of one Jimmy Lee Jackson or protesters debt led to. The Selma to Montgomery. March again to the extent, that that that the law still applies that's fine and good in the case of murder I don't suppose that there is ever a statute of, limitations. Is there Now I'm not a lawyer. But no I, don't I don't, believe there is then again there's, also the the other notion, that there are federal civil rights laws involved here that. In fact it would be quite possible to be tried twice in one of these cases once for the state law of committing murder and once, for the federal law involving the violation of someone's civil rights. And, I believe the courts have held that such trials are. For two different crimes. And therefore do not constitute. Double jeopardy that's as I recall my memory of the reading. Of this So in other words it's not an academic exercise our act, your things that presumably can. Be done in the in these cases there would potentially be a lot, of cases out there of course we're talking like you said about a, sixty three, year old case and in that particular case I, only know one person, that could, be prosecuted. All the law enforcement people. Are gone, and again there was a cover up you know there were there were employees black employees of milem, and Brian who were involved in the crime they were pretty much compelled to participate and my wife and I interviewed one of them before he died but they're all gone now and you know. The people that covered up are pretty much all gone but there are many read more recent cases you know in the. Sixties for example where a lot of people still are around So this this evidence continuing and again the the pickings as you, might expect are so much slim but nonetheless been some cases which in, fact there, have been a successful reopening the Justice department Had this new inquiry first reported by the Associated Press. Last began a significant rule of the review of the till case fourteen years ago prosecutors ultimately determined, that the statute of limitations let them without, any charges they could pursue in a federal court The FBI still conducted an inquiry which included an, exclamation of the immortals body from an Illinois cemetery for about two years to settle whether there. Were any state crimes that could. Still be prosecuted I. I'm not sure other than than murder I'm not sure what crimes we could be talking about here and it was. Interesting that prosecutors determined that the statute of limitations had left without any charges they could pursue a federal court If I'm not mistaken anybody involved in this had already, been tried for murder in a state court and acquitted and of course any retrial would be. Double jeopardy if there's no federal Charge that that's still around since obviously then statutes of limitations apply. To the the civil, rights laws that that we discussed a second ago while I find this of academic interest. I'm not quite sure whether the FBI is looking. Into this at all Well you do have Caroline like I said Brian Dunham and she was never tried, that would be a case you could, bring, high I unless we get a confession from her or something like that I think that that extremely. Unlikely but I suppose it's a possibility and it's probably, the main reason they. Reopened this investigation, I, would I would guess in that, particular case again this is a case of of Justice delayed beyond the point of of of, reasonably getting anything done and while I suppose. It makes us all feel better something is being investigated I must say frankly given the circumstances we've, discussed tonight I'm not sure that I find this to be a, particularly efficient use of limited federal resources your thoughts I tend to agree with you I think there are a lot of cases that are. Where you do have some you know you you do have some potential I just don't see it. Here I think it may be was a spur of the moment. Decision maybe somebody read Timothy Tyson's, sport which again now questions have been called about what he but he found in that book and. Said oh okay we have a confession, here, let's go after this case well turns out they really did so I think somebody maybe didn't think. To think this through I understand why they're doing it, I just think that. That's the target, is, not the best target at this, late day are there any state investigations that they'd go back this far in any any part, of the country that that tried to look. At at circumstances that were improperly handled at the time or is this strictly as, far as you, know a a federal effort I don't know of any state. Investigations going on certainly there are cases going back even further but you you have to. Look at examples like you know holocaust guy now that's being you know ninety five year old that's being sent back to Germany to be tried so you know it does happen but? I can't think of any state investigations go to, go back that far The the circumstances of course of the the till case I suppose we're we're instrumental given that it was nineteen fifty five and of course I I don't recall if this was before or after. The Montgomery Alabama bus, boycott which really vaulted Dr Martin Luther King. Junior to national prominence do you recall there, are two are, linked together, Dr TRM Howard we talked about last time was a prominent civil rights figuring Mississippi way he went. On a national speaking tour only three days after. The jury's acquittal he predicted that, it, was going to be an acquittal in ROY Wilkins. The NWPP basically said I want you to, go around, the country he was getting crowds and, cities like, Baltimore Madison Square Garden you, know ten, twenty thousand people bigger crowds than anyone really had gotten in recent memory. For a civil, rights 'cause it, was building up a lot of pressure he. Was attacking the FBI well anyway A lesser known part of it tour was in November twenty seventh, nineteen fifty five, in Montgomery Alabama and his host was. Martin Luther King, then unknown nationally Rosa Parks was in the audience. And three days, later, Rosa Parks refused to up her seat she made quite clear, that the reason, she refused to give up her seat was she was thinking. Of Emmett till well Howard speech only three days before. That had been the focus dad had been the first event Montgomerie to really focus on that issue so they the issues you know the till case I think. You can find it pretty clear link to the Montgomery bus boycott and. Of course then the, decision was to organize a movement around Rosa. Parks action and king was chosen to head, that we're going, to come, back and talk more about that with our guest David Beethoven again he's the author of TRM Howard. Will reintroduce you to him as.

murder FBI Justice department Alabama Montgomery Alabama Dr Martin Luther King Montgomery professor of history Howard Emmett David Beethoven Brian Dunham Rosa Parks Jim Bohannon Dr TRM Howard Mississippi Jimmy Lee Jackson TRM Howard Nimitz sippy
"david beethoven" Discussed on KTAR 92.3FM

KTAR 92.3FM

09:35 min | 2 years ago

"david beethoven" Discussed on KTAR 92.3FM

"To be talking about the Justice department reopening an inquiry into the murder of, Emmett till that investigation to be discussed with us, tonight by, David Beethoven research fellow at, the, independent institute a. Professor of history at the university of. Alabama Tuscaloosa. Co author of TRM Howard doctor entrepreneur and civil rights pioneer good. Evening Mr. Beethoven's good evening Tell us if for those who are not the imminently familiar that, most of us can remember the name of, of immaterial and it had. To, do with a terrible racial injustice and frankly that's probably about as far as most of us, get in terms of of just exactly what the name implies well it's a long story, so I'll give you the, bare, bones, version Emmett till, was, a, fourteen, year old. Boy from Chicago this is a nineteen fifty. Five and every summer or so he would come, to Mississippi to visit his great uncle who lived on, a cotton plantation and was picking cotton and he helped them out was hard work but he came every year well one year he he came, until and a bunch of friends went to a, store crossroads, store and there was a, beautiful, white woman behind. The counter and we don't know exactly What happened but I think, the friends sorta dared him. To go in there and, and talk tour we don't know what he said it wasn't anything you know might have been something as simple as he you know he ended money tour directly rather than put it put it on. The counter, who knows exactly what happened some people say that he gave a wolf whistle when he left but yeah we. P, p e left well, word got around someone passed the message to. The husband of this woman behind the counter he he. Was offended by it he went by to his brother who. Was a real tough me character and said you know what do I do and his brothers said you got, to get revenge and so they kidnap till, the middle of the night. And, he apparently did not satisfy them they they you know they were going to beat him up, maybe but he didn't satisfy them so they took them, around they beat him severely And then eventually they killed him they, dumped him, in Tallahassee river but just through some fate basically, there was it snagged on. A vine underneath he was. Tied to a cotton gin old cotton big big things hope was. To conceal, their crime to get them. Into, the bottom of the river but it's snag like I said a fisherman sought the body. Was, horribly horribly disfigured the two. Brothers admitted that they take until they claim they let him go but they were, charged with, murder put on trial? And acquitted in less, than an hour and the. Jury joked member of the jury joke that we would have taken we wouldn't have taken that. Long we, haven't gone, out to get some pop so that's the, a rougher you the story. But there's a lot more, to it than that Of course. There's a reason why it isn't. In the immediate familiarity with most Americans in. That it took place sixty three years ago, this was nineteen fifty five that this took place Yes It, was and it was on the eve of the civil rights. Movement, well they're always have been civil rights more was on the eve of the. Movement we associate with Martin Luther King in played big role in spurring that movement, on In in any event certainly a lot of. Time has passed I'm not even sure how many of the defendants are still alive The only one that I know of now were it was a conspiracy there were more, than two people involved that has been shown, only possible, person to charge that I. Know of is the wife that you. Know pretty lady that was behind the counter Juanita Juanita Bryant Donna Was in her eighties I frankly don't think, that will, happen But that is the only person that could. Possibly be, charged at, this point who's still alive, was involved they say of course the Justice delayed is Justice deferred this particular case while I. Certainly of academic interest to find out what actually took place I'm not sure what the purpose of this particular investigation is given as you say that the wheels of Justice apparently don't have. A lot of targets to turn toward Well. I had a little bit of, an idea on that she was interviewed by historian named Timothy Tyson who did extensive interviews with, her and actually you know had some interesting. Things to say about black. Friends she had ad is child and various things like, that but one of the things she said to him was sort, of admitted that, she was knew about the crime and so forth had some involvement in it but then when that was. They've they've, looked at, that now and it is, historian has hours of interview with her on tape but he did get that part on tape. So it's just his word so I just don't see her being prosecuted because it you know if she did say he didn't get it and he you know he You know in the evenings evidence the, FBI needs evidence but I think that's why the case was reopened, because of, that One eight six six, five o. JIMBO is our number one, eight six, six five zero five, four six two six. It it did of course staggered the the nation at the time If you were, around, that time. You may recall that, the the boy had an open coffin Funeral I think that was at the insistence of the, mother if I'm not. Mistaken to to let, the world see what they, did to, my boy something of that nature and although the the the photographs got widespread publication but they're they're out there and they got. A lot of play in, the black oppress on the cover of jet magazine, and Chicago defender so people like Mohammed Ali if you're a young black. Person at that time you good chance you saw. Those. Photos in, it at, a, big. Impact I have seen, the photos they they're pretty gruesome okay I mean there's no no no, getting around that fact and the the open cashier was probably Something that. Was was worth doing not just to quote for. The. Shock value, as much, I, guess. As to to make. Manifest what it actually happened to immaterial Now. The Justice, department has not commented on all of this but it appears that the government chose to devote new. Attention to the case after the, central with us you know as you mentioned Carolyn Bryant, Donham recanted, part of her account of what actually happened at that time Again I think the facts at the time pretty much spoke for themselves when when the the person on the jury said that we wouldn't have taken a whole hour to. Acquit we hadn't gone out for soda. Pop so, again I'm not exactly sure quite what Is. I guess, to be to be accomplished here Baby I grant we, should not forget part of our our terrible past but there aren't a whole lot of of lynchings cross burnings in the like taking place these days Mississippi the the state at which this happened today has the highest number, of elected officials have, color in the entire country not. Just per capita but the the the highest number so perhaps this might. Have had greater importance that had been brought forward let's. Say in nineteen sixty five or nineteen seventy five then in two thousand eighteen you're nineteen fifty five when people like Howard written about and others were pointing out that the evidence was that there. Were more than two, people involved, and so forth and I think they're. You. Know that was the time to do, it now I will. Say this several. Years ago the FBI did reopen the, investigation uncovered a lot of material we ever Pretty pretty good idea what happened pretty good idea who was involved so. That is been incredible, useful now, that we have a bigger picture of. What. Actually happened there and the cover up, that did occur at the time the sheriff local law enforcement and others One eight six six five zero JIMBO, our number one eight six six five zero five four six two six we're talking with David Beethoven he's a research. Fellow at the independent institute a professor of history of the university. Of Alabama Tuscaloosa the Izzy co author of the book TRM Howard doctor entrepreneur and the civil. Rights pioneer and we'll come back and talk some more.

Professor of history David Beethoven Tuscaloosa Chicago Mississippi murder Emmett Howard TRM Howard Alabama Juanita Juanita Bryant Donna Justice department FBI Martin Luther King Timothy Tyson Tallahassee river research fellow jet magazine
"david beethoven" Discussed on KLIF 570 AM

KLIF 570 AM

06:18 min | 2 years ago

"david beethoven" Discussed on KLIF 570 AM

"Zero five four six two six David Beethoven our guest and we're looking at the reopening of. The Mattila investigation a murder case that occurred in the Mississippi delta in nineteen fifty five initially that was when the the crime was committed and now decades later we are relooking at that era in an effort to see if after all that time there are cases which can be brought, and as our guest David beta of the independent. Institute in the university of Alabama? Notes probably this amounts to to too little too late is it the, thought that counts I suppose I think it might have been more productive to, of, course that was somewhat down with, the, FBI investigations but, perhaps, to, do, a, second, investigation to try, to get more information I'm I'm just the opinion that a prosecution is now calling to occur in this case and because there. Just isn't the evidence is not there you know. She she's not shown, on tape same say there's no evidence that she said them on tape and you need you would need that I think something like that to really, Brenda prosecution so is it case of a meaning well of showing, our hearts in the right place I mean I. I don't mean to to sarcastically Put down the effort but I I'm not quite sure what we're doing here if if we are doing something akin to that if. We're not. Actually approaching a meaningful prosecution what are we doing, it could be you know I mean if you wanna, take a cynical view could just be seen as a political move to. To you know get get black support I don't know I suspect it's more complicated than. That I I'd be interested in who signed off on. This and who's, did Jeff Sessions presumably he. Would have signed off on it but who where did it come from it could just be somebody. Read the book and said look we got a. Case here and just just plowed ahead? Without, really sort of doing the Spade work initially. Of looking, into it a little bit more closely For those been might have been Might have been the way to do it Investigation's, work to look. At it and more? Quiet wait and see is there a case I don't know if anybody tried to do that Yeah I'm. Not sure what these days the civil rights. Division of the Justice department looks into I mean the, law is settled the law is old it has been around for quite some time and if you engage in. Racial discrimination, in this country you'd better not get caught because if you are caught your almost certainly going to lose an inequality, of law so. I I'm not sure? What they do over in that division these days Well you, would think that you know they have limited manpower and, like I say I think if you were to look at. The sixties and the seventies when you you know you did have a lot of clan violence I mean. The, clan made its big comeback in the fifties the Klan was a pretty weak organization in. The south, it was sort of. The extreme group to. Citizens councils were the main lunch but it. Made a big comeback and there was a lot of, islands in the sixties and I would think some of that could be looked into and if you want to. Find some, cases to prosecute that you you'll be more likely to find them How activism clan today, I mean you don't really hear that much about them you don't hear about about, for example, cross burnings on the like I remember at. One time, back this would have been I suppose about the. Seventies that I I came across a story which I. Thought was just astounding but the clan was so desperate for membership that they, had put forward a call for, all white Christians including Catholics to join in the battle, for racial salvation or somewhat however they put it but I. Remember thinking at the time maybe you guys are so desperate that, you've got to include Catholics you're hurting I think they are hurting I mean Tuscaloosa where I'm, from was Client was, pretty powerful in the sixties now and they, would have you know hanging. Out so that they would meet, their but but they're highly fragmented there's a lot of different clans and this is a. Good thing that I, think we, could be satisfied about that one one groups like this do demonstrations what they. Tend to attract as maybe six hundred people or something like that. And the counter demonstrators are are, usually in, the in the thousands so I think that that is you know there is a weakness, now you could say that there should be hidden support out, there but, as far as them mobilizing successfully as they once dead you know go back to the twenties when, you had no use of people mclamb in the state of Indiana you at one point you had thousands who. Marched down Pennsylvania Avenue the. Route taken, by a newly inaugurated president Oh they controlled major political candidates and they were a powerful organization. That twenty which they were brought down again during that time because. Of a lot of scandals a, lot of, internal dissension and that's what the Klan is often its worst enemy you have a lot, of people strong egos and unsavory characters again involved in all, sorts of, saying that embarrass the organization in cover up stuff in the example of Jews for example Lewis joined, the loop become leaders, of the clan then this comes out and they're all embarrassed by well you know yeah Mike Catholic case carried one step further I mean it's getting to the point. Where the, clan may have to start burning crosses on the. Lawns of left-handed people I'm not quite sure how, how, far this? Goes Anyway we're going back I want. To mention some about our guests book. TRM Howard because I suspect there are still an. Awful lot of people who frankly have, never heard the name and it is a, name of which you should. Be aware we'll.

Klan university of Alabama FBI David Beethoven murder Mississippi Jeff Sessions David beta Brenda Tuscaloosa Indiana Justice department Howard president Mike Catholic Lewis
"david beethoven" Discussed on KLIF 570 AM

KLIF 570 AM

09:03 min | 2 years ago

"david beethoven" Discussed on KLIF 570 AM

"Welcome back to Jim Bohannon show with our guest David Beethoven research fellow at. The, dependent institute and a professor of history at the university of Alabama. Tuscaloosa Abby co author of TRM Howard doctor entrepreneur and civil rights pioneer we're talking about a reopening of, the Emmett. Till murder case. Yes, of, the, sixty three, years, ago Now Clearly as you note witnesses potential defendants in the like in many, cases dead this is A test of the Justice department charge of investigating long ago murders that are thought to have been, racially, motivated and The Justice department, in the last ten years it's efforts led to five successful prosecutions glued that. Of Edgar Ray, Killen involved in me murders of the three civil, rights workers in the Mississippi, who died in prison this past year that of course, was the subject of the movie Mississippi burning starring Gene Hackman, which some of you may have seen over the years So the last. Successful prosecution came eight years ago when a former Alabama, state trooper was convicted of manslaughter for the killing of one Jimmy Lee Jackson a protesters, death led to the Selma to Montgomery March again to the extent that that. That the law, still applies that's fine and good in the case, of murder I don't suppose, that there is ever a statute of limitations is there Now I'm not a lawyer but no I don't I don't believe there then again there's also the the other. Notion that there are federal civil rights laws involved here that in. Fact it would be quite possible to be tried twice in one of these cases once for the state law of committing murder and once for, the, federal law involving the violation of someone's civil rights and. I, believe the courts have held that such trials are for. Two different crimes and. Therefore do not constitute double. Jeopardy that's as I recall my my memory of the reading. Of this So in other words it's, not an academic exercise our actor things that presumably can be done in the in these cases there would potentially be a lot of cases out there of course we're talking like you said about. A sixty three year old case and in that particular case I only know one person that potentially could be all the. Law enforcement people are gone and again there was a cover up You know there were. There were employees black, employees of milem and Brian. Who were involved in the crime they were pretty much compelled to participate, my wife and I interviewed one before he died but. They're all, gone now, and you know the people are covered up are pretty. Much all gone but there, are many sort of read more recent cases you know in the sixties for example where. A lot, of people still are around So the evidence continuing and again the the picking, as you might expect are somewhat slim but nonetheless have, been some, cases Mitch in, fact there, have been a successful reopening the Justice department Had this new inquiry first reported by the Associated Press last. Began a significant rule of the review of the till case forty years ago prosecutors ultimately, determined that the statute of limitations, let. Them with, any charges they could pursue in a federal court Be FBI conducted an inquiry which included an, exclamation of the immortals body from an Illinois cemetery for about two years to settle whether there were any state crimes that could still. Be prosecuted I I'm. Not sure other than than murder I'm not sure what crimes we could be talking about here and it was interesting. That prosecutors determined that the statute of limitations had left without any charges they could pursue in a federal court If I'm not mistaken anybody involved, in this had already been tried for murder in a state court and acquitted and of course in the retrial would be double jeopardy If there's no federal Charge that that is, still around since obviously the statute of limitations apply to the the civil rights laws that that we discussed second ago while I find, this of academic interest I'm not quite sure why the FBI is looking. Into this at all Well you do have Caroline like I said Brian Dunham and she was never, tried that would be case you could bring I I unless we get a confession, from her or something like that I think that that extremely unlikely but I suppose it's a possibility and it's probably the main reason, they reopened this investigation I would I would guess in that particular case Again this. Is a case of Justice delayed beyond the point of of of reasonably getting anything done and, while I suppose, it makes us all feel. Better that something is being investigated. I must say frankly given the circumstances we've discussed tonight I'm not. Sure that I find this to, be a, particularly efficient use of limited federal resources your thoughts I tend to agree with you I, think, there, are a lot of cases. That are. You know where you do have some you know. You you do have some potential I just don't see. It here I think it may. Be, was a spur of, the moment decision, maybe somebody, read Timothy Tyson sports which. Again now questions have been called about. What he, but he found in that book and said oh okay we. Have a confession here let's go, after this case Lau turns out they really did I think somebody maybe didn't think to think this, through I understand why they're doing it I just think. That that's the target is not, the best, target at this late day are there any state investigations that go back this far in, any, any, part of the country that. That tried. To look at at circumstances that were improperly handled. At the time or is this strictly as far as. You know a a federal effort I don't know of? Any state investigations going on certainly there are cases, going back even further You know but you you have to look at examples like you know holocaust. Guy now that's, being ninety five, year old that's being sent back to Germany. To be tried so you know. It does happen but I can't think of any. State investigations go to go back that far The the circumstances of course of the? Till. Case I suppose we're we're instrumental given that it was nineteen fifty five and of, course I I don't recall if this was before or after the Montgomery Alabama bus boycott which really vaulted Dr Martin Luther King junior to national prominence. Do you recall the two are linked, together Dr TRM Howard we talked about last. Time was a prominent civil rights figuring Mississippi, anyway he went, on a, national speaking tour only three days after the jury's acquittal he predicted that it was going to be. An acquittal in ROY Wilkins. The n. w. c. p. who said I want, you, to go, around the, country he was getting crowds and cities, like Baltimore, Madison Square Garden you know ten twenty thousand people bigger crowds than anyone really had gotten in recent. Memory for a civil rights 'cause, it was building up a lot of pressure. Was attacking the FBI well anyway A lesser known part of it tour was. In November twenty, seventh nineteen fifty five in Montgomery. Alabama and his, host was Martin Luther King then unknown nationally Rosa. Parks was in, the, audience and three days later Rosa Parks refused to per seat, she made quite, clear that the reason she refused to give up her seat. Was she was thinking of Emmett till well? Howard. Speech only three days before that had been the focus dad had been the first, event Montgomerie to really focus on that issue so they the issues you know. The till case I think you can find a pretty clear link to. The Montgomery bus boycott and of course, then the decision was to organize a move. Around Rosa Parks action and king was chosen, to head that, we're going, to come back and talk more about that with our guest David beta again he's the author of. TRM Howard will reintroduce you. To him as well and be back in a, moment Laura Ingram idea of, apologizing apologize say something incorrect on the other side is trying to racial is something they should issue the apology I. Would demand. That, Andrew gillum and all these people should apologize Laura Ingram until two on news and information five.

murder Montgomery Justice department university of Alabama professor of history Alabama Mississippi Dr Martin Luther King FBI Emmett David Beethoven TRM Howard Dr TRM Howard Jim Bohannon Brian Dunham Laura Ingram Be FBI Howard Gene Hackman
"david beethoven" Discussed on KLIF 570 AM

KLIF 570 AM

09:41 min | 2 years ago

"david beethoven" Discussed on KLIF 570 AM

"Jimbohannonshow, dot com you can follow me on Twitter at, jimbotalks says tonight we're gonna be talking about the Justice department reopening an inquiry into the murder of Emmett till let investigate should be discussed with, us tonight by David Beethoven research fellow at the independent. Institute a professor of history at the, university of Alabama. Tuscaloosa Biko author of TRM Howard doctor. Entrepreneur and civil rights pioneer good evening Mr. Beethoven's good evening, tell us if for those who are not the imminently familiar I think most of us can remember the name of of. Immaterial and, it had to do with a terrible racial injustice and frankly that's probably about as far as most of us. Get in. Terms of of just exactly what the name implies Well it's a. Long story so I'll give you the bare bones, version Emmett till was a fourteen, year, old boy from, Chicago, this, was, a nineteen. Fifty five and every summer or. So he would come to Mississippi to visit his, great uncle who lived on a cotton plantation and, was picking cotton and he'd help them out was hard work but he came every year well one year he he came and until a bunch, of friends went to a store crossroads store and there, was a beautiful white woman behind the, counter and we. Don't know exactly what happened but I. Think the friends sorta dared him to go in there and, talk to her we don't know what he said it wasn't anything you know might have been something as simple as he. You know, he handed money tour directly rather than put it you know put it on the counter who knows exactly what Happened some. People say that he gave a wolf whistle when he. Left but yeah well he he left well word got around. Someone passed the message to the husband of this woman behind the counter he he was offended by he went, by to his brother who was a real, tough me character and said. You, know what I do and his brothers said you got to get revenge and so they kidnap, till the middle of the night and he apparently did, not satisfy them they they you know. They were going to beat him up maybe but he didn't satisfy them so they took. Them around they beat him severely. And then eventually they killed him they dumped him in the Tallahassee river, but just, through some fate basically there was a it snagged, on a, vine underneath he was tied, to a cotton gin Old cotton big big things, hope was to conceal, their crime to get him. Into the bottom of the river but it snagged like I said a fishermen sought the body. Was horribly, horribly disfigured, the two brothers admitted that they take until, they claim they let him. Go but they were charged, with murder put on trial and acquitted in less than. An hour and the jury joked member, of the jury joke that, we, would've taken we wouldn't have taken that long we. Hadn't gone out to get some. Pop So that's the. Rough version of the story but. There's a lot more to it than that Of course there's a reason why. It isn't the immediate familiarity with most Americans. In that it took place sixty three years. Ago this was nineteen fifty-five that this took place Yes correct It was and it was on the eve of the civil. Rights, movement well they're always have been civil rights was on the eve of. The movement we associate with Martin Luther King and played a big role. In spurring that? Movement, on In in any event certainly a lot. Of time has passed I'm not even sure how many of the defendants are still alive The only. One that I know of and there were it was a conspiracy there were more than, two people involved that has been shown the, only possible, person to charge that I. Know of is the wife that you. Know pretty lady that was behind the counter Juanita Juanita Bryant Donna Was in her eighties I frankly don't think, that will, happen But that is the only person that. Could possibly be, charged at, this point is still alive, involved will they say of course the Justice. Delayed is Justice deferred is particular case While I certainly find it of economic interest to find out what actually, took place I'm not sure what the purpose of this particular investigation is given as you say that. The wheels of, Justice apparently, don't have a lot of, targets to turn toward Well I. Had a little bit of an idea that she was interviewed by story in named Timothy Tyson who did extensive interviews with her, and actually you know had. Some interesting things to say about, black French she added a child and various things like that but one of the things she, said to him was sort of admitted that she was knew. About the crime and so forth had some involvement in, it but then when that was they've they've looked at that now, and it, is historian has hours of interview with her on tape but he didn't get that part. On tape just his word so I just don't see her being prosecuted because it you know if she did say he didn't get it and he you know he You know, and he, needs The FBI needs evidence but I think that's why the case, was reopened, because of that All right one eight six six five o.. JIMBO is our number one eight six six five zero five four six two six. It it did of course staggered the the nation at the time If you were around that time. You may recall that, the the boy had an open coffin Funeral I think that, was at the insistence of the mother if I'm not mistaken To. To let the world, see what they did to, my boy, something of that nature and. Although the the the photographs got widespread publication but they're they're out there and They got a, lot of play, in the black oppressed on the cover of jet magazine. And, the Chicago defender so people like Mohammed Ali if. You're. A young, black person at. That time you good chance you saw those photos and it had a big impact I I have seen the photos they they're pretty gruesome okay I, mean there's, no no getting around that fact and the the open cashier was probably something that was was worth doing not just to quote, for the shock value. As much I guess, as to to make manifest, what had, actually happened to immaterial Now the. Justice. Department has, not commented on. All of this but, it appears that the government chose to devote new attention to the case after the central with us as you mentioned Carolyn Bryant, Donham recanted, part of her account of what actually happened at that time Again I think the facts at the time pretty much spoke for themselves when when the the person on the jury said that we wouldn't have taken a whole hour to. Acquit we had gone out for a soda. Pop so, again I'm not exactly sure quite what Is. I guess, to be to be accomplished here Baby grant we, should not forget part of our our terrible past but there aren't a whole lot of of lynchings cross. Burnings in the like taking place these days Mississippi the state in which this happened today has the the highest number, of elected officials of, color in the entire country not. Just per capita but the the the highest number so perhaps this might. Have had greater importance that had been brought forward let's. Say in nineteen sixty five or nineteen seventy five then in two thousand eighteen you're nineteen fifty five when people like Howard written about and others were pointing out that the evidence was that there. Were more than two people involved and so forth and I think. You. Know that was the time to do, it now I will. Say this several years ago the FBI did reopen the investigation uncovered a lot of material And we have a pretty pretty good idea what happened pretty good idea who was involved so that is. Been incredibly useful now that, we have a bigger picture of what. Actually. Happened there and the cover up the, did occur at the time sheriff local law enforcement and others Yep Eight six six five o. JIMBO our number one eight six six five zero five four six two. Six we're talking with David. Beethoven he's a research fellow at the independent, institute a professor of history of the university of. Alabama. Tuscaloosa the is co author of the book TRM Howard doctor entrepreneur and the civil rights pioneer and we'll come back and talk some more.

David Beethoven professor of history Emmett FBI murder Chicago JIMBO Mississippi university of Alabama research fellow TRM Howard Howard Justice Juanita Juanita Bryant Donna Twitter Justice department Martin Luther King Tallahassee river jet magazine
"david beethoven" Discussed on KTAR 92.3FM

KTAR 92.3FM

04:00 min | 2 years ago

"david beethoven" Discussed on KTAR 92.3FM

"Just couldn't get conviction around speaking about this after the trial big crowds baltimore boston san francisco and he was drawing massive crowds in the north so a whole northern audience was hearing him in the month after and he was pressing for reopening the investigation forgetting the fbi involved and so forth but it didn't do any good now i gather that baltimore speech was particularly notable why well it was the first one after the trial was just a couple of days after the trial and it was something like it was like ten thousand see some of these spanning massive audience but anyway a one of the things that happened there is he said we got the movie the fbi story i think it just come out of the poor and it started with the fbi you know finding no hijacker by by looking at the wreckage right tracking down clues you said we have fbi that can do all this but they can never seem to be able to convict a white man in a black man is killed they just can't seem to do that and this is at the height of j edgar hoover's career he is g man he is a national hero nobody challenges him and hoover is mad and our keeps doing this in speeches and finally who were says i gotta right you know i gotta put this guy down and cooperates with hoover thurgood marshall they're working together because marshall things howard is a bit of a loose cannon now that's worth repeating for those who weren't paying attention thurgood marshall the man who led the fight that ultimately led the brown versus board of education that desegregated american schools who became the first black supreme court justice thurgood marshall was working with j edgar hoover to put down trm howard now that i've gotten maybe people to understand that they really did hear what you just said please continue well there's an interesting well it's still a little bit of a mystery because they were on friendly terms marshall right before the brown decision it's spoken in mumbai with their annual rally was only days before i believe they had a panel of lawyers and they were you know they were looking forward to it so it was a friendly relationship it seemed but howard had a good relationship with the head of the n w c p roy welcome but for some reason marshall didn't trust him marshall had a very good relationship with hoover any maintain this and i think part of it why's he figured if he can go to if he can have a good relationship to who can get favors he can get good things happening for black people you can go to and so he he's sort of wrote to hoover and says i agree you know you got to do something about this howard he called him a rugged individualist and he was doing this and it's in the fbi files what ultimately happened is hoover decided he had to ride an open letter to howard you wrote it but howard is traveling around didn't get the letter the letter was mailed to them i guess it was supposed to be mailed to them then it would appear in the press the next day but he was blindsided but he didn't back down and and huber's basically saying you're being unfair the fbi's dude got this great record and howard went back to it you said well you know you know he gave specifics why can't you find this i i can't you find that person but it was really this is the four kings and all his troubles at the fbi and this is one who was really at the height of his power we'll come back and talk some more with our guest he is dr david beethoven co author of t r m howard did you know all this stuff folks i didn't back in a moment i'm a one trick pony literally a show for kids parties enact to.

san francisco baltimore
"david beethoven" Discussed on KTAR 92.3FM

KTAR 92.3FM

04:50 min | 2 years ago

"david beethoven" Discussed on KTAR 92.3FM

"The university of alabama dr david beethoven co author with his wife linda of trm howard dr entrepreneur civil rights pioneer published by independent institute the emmett till murder case i guess really propelled dr howard considerable nationwide prominence yes it did he was at the center of that and and just about everywhere you can imagine and trying to find witnesses i go through the story of emmett till if you want yes please unfortunately it is probably true that a fair percentage of the audience has never heard of him until either well you know that's surprising to me not surprising to me given you know i've given talks people whose name or beggar evers very few people often anyway what happened was immaterial was a fourteen year old boy from chicago he would come every summer to mississippi delta to to sort of work for his his great uncle mos right and helping pick cotton and sort of a combination vacations mother things well anyway he goes into a store in a town called money mississippi just a crossroads store and there's a white woman behind the counter and it's very unclear what happened he might have wolf whistled adder he might have said something he might have not respectfully done something that could have been very minor nobody really knows for sure contradictory or whatever he did it wasn't you know wasn't some horrible thing anyway he the husband of of the this wife found out about it someone told him and he was kind of a wink guy and he wasn't to do anything but his brother said you've got to you got to do something about this and they found emmett till one o'clock in the morning staying with his great uncle they kidnap them they they they tried to get him to say was sorry and he didn't sufficiently do that and they beat him up savagely beat him up and then killed him and tied him to a gin fan an old gin fan dumped him in the tallahassee river and just what is what is it jen fan for those who don't know oh it's just too is part of the machine machinery for cotton gin okay gotcha and it was an old you know just a big hunk of metal big fan basically is what it was and they tied it to them thinking way down but he's snagged in snacks somewhere the river and a fisherman saw you days by later in the body was just horribly disfigured well howard found out about this he was in chicago at the time and he went to the press and he really played it up in a major way emmett till mother lived in chicago she came and saw the by the by ship and she insisted on open casket funeral and you had this horribly disfigured body all the signs of the beating and people lined around the block and it was a big deal the two white men were or put on trial which is something that did not happen very often the mississippi and dr howard did not think there was a chance he said you'd have a better chance of you know getting a fine for killing that deer out of you know a season then you know they're they're going to get convicted words to that effect but anyway he went into he he he is home was he he brought in emmett till mother she stayed with them black reporter stayed with them and witnesses because he was going around he had this whole underground network they called it the mississippi underground were they tried to find evidence they found i witness people eyewitnesses to the beating and you know they went all over the state and plantations and back roads and the trial was held one of these witnesses did testify but in the end the jury wasn't gonna convict these two brothers for doing it they pleaded not guilty but they weren't gonna convict them and in twenty minutes or so went by and they acquitted them later one of the brothers spoke to look magazine and for money and admitted his guilt because well what does he have to fear at that point and a lot of people were very much outraged when that came out but dr howard has had symbol of a lot of evidence and believe it was more than two people were involved in fact now the fbi in about ten years ago completed that there were more than two people involved but you.

linda university of alabama dr david beethoven trm howard dr twenty minutes fourteen year ten years
"david beethoven" Discussed on KTAR 92.3FM

KTAR 92.3FM

02:40 min | 2 years ago

"david beethoven" Discussed on KTAR 92.3FM

"Leger with us on the jim bohannon show with dr david beethoven he's a professor of history of the university of alabama co author with his wife of t r m howard theodore roosevelt mason howard dr entrepreneur civil rights pioneer and as we will learn here in a moment to a man who did not mince words exactly this wasn't exactly a step and fetch it in terms of his language have a call from vicinity in cedar rapids iowa who calls in tonight and good evening welcome thank you jim before taking my call david english for the show and i have a very different question i i am trying to put together the reason why blacks in america from ats sixty into mid nineteen sixties they voted republican and i was just wondering what's mr howard's i i feel the asian what political affiliation was mr howard's dr howard's political affiliation was he was a republican his mentor was manny will mason a white doctor in murray kentucky mason's wife actually ran as a republican for congress and she was sort of howard's a mentor as well he ended up after he moved to chicago he ended up running as the republican candidate for congress and he lost badly he was her challenging the daley machine during that period the black representative of the daley machine but he but he remainder republican although you right here and i'll just quote again from the book trm howard he backed president franklin roosevelt but only conditionally once the economy improved the onus was on the president to quote to say this far and no farther to mob violence and other injustices which are forced up on black americans and if always simplifying a bit because he did have an interlude there where he was a republican in fact he campaigned i think he campaigned for hoover and then he he sort of had a time there where he was floating around and in mississippi for a brief time he was with the black democrats 'cause that was the only game in town and then he kind of return to the republican party after that and supported eisenhower he had here and i quote again from your book he had no time for the various quote boneheaded pussyfooting grafting.

republican party daley chicago kentucky dr howard david english theodore roosevelt university of alabama professor of history dr david beethoven jim bohannon eisenhower Leger mississippi hoover president franklin roosevelt representative congress
"david beethoven" Discussed on KTAR 92.3FM

KTAR 92.3FM

04:04 min | 2 years ago

"david beethoven" Discussed on KTAR 92.3FM

"Online you'll find us at jimbohannonshow dot com you can follow me on twitter at jimbotalks we'll be talking tonight about a person with whom you're probably not familiar and we will explain to you why you probably should be we will take a step back from everything that is in the immediate instant headlines of the day and try to put some perspective on this country and some of the struggles we have faced in the past few decades and we will do so in the company of dr david beethoven he's professor of history at the university of alabama we're gonna be talking about t r m howard dr entrepreneur civil rights pioneer dr beta why should we be concerned about theodore roosevelt mason howard well one no the history of the civil rights movement we need to know about him we probably would not have heard of meg grabbers we probably would have not heard about fannie lou emmer and we probably would not have heard of rosa parks quite possibly without dr trm howard he was a pioneer in the true sense of the word he was an enabler but he wasn't just a civil rights leader he was very successful entrepreneur surgeon provided low cost healthcare for the poor without any government aid so he's quite a renaissance man in in many interesting ways other words a man who accomplished a great deal for a white man and to do what he did as a man of color at that time in our history that that is a double accomplishment well certainly if you're in mississippi in the early nineteen fifties don't wanna insult anyone there but it was it was the worst of the worst in terms of jim crow there were whole black county majority black counties in mississippi that didn't have a single black voter give you you know just a thumbnail example if you were a black person in a trial you would be addressed by your first name and there would never be an all it would never be a black person on the jury to judge it so he thrived in that environment because he just sort of stood out really ever met gerber's life wrote about and she said it was almost almost magical about him there he had this negro who had somehow beat the system was riding down ceiling on the highway in the latest buick skylark and snappy dresser and like to bed at the horse track and was supremely selfconfident wherever he went and you know he combined all these things together so he's not our stereotype of the civil rights leader he sounds like the kind of person who would either at that time in that place would either learn his place real fast or else get the hell out and move north yeah well he knew there were certain boundaries you couldn't cross but i've come across a number of letters were you know this white person wrote a letter and and just just very insulting and he was a very powerful white person in the mississippi delta and i just came across this layer from howard where he spoke up to the guy but he would he did it in a kind of very clever way very disarming way but very very strong way as well one eight six six five o jimbo our number one eight six six five zero five four six two six how did dr howard come or mister howard was a doctor too so dr howard how did he come to your attention well my wife and i were doing a book on before the rise of the welfare state how people provided things like medical care now was this remarkable hospital all town all black town amount by the mississippi delta that was a.

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