5 Burst results for "David Barack"
Brain Inspired
"david barack" Discussed on Brain Inspired
"That has now been going on for over a decade. And i'm wondering what so now. So you're satisfied that this is the type of of Technology and recordings that will all the sudden now that we have this modern technology that lends itself to these kinds of analyses. Now it's more satisfying account of a mutt Articulating it well. It seems convenient. Let's say to to say now we have. This is the best modern data and analysis that we have. And it's better right and and so that that's why you know my initial summary of yay for the dynamical systems theory approaches is kind of like saying yay. We're doing well. We're progressing and i and i'm wondering what the where the big step is. Just one just one thing. I mean it's just so important. A lot of people in the dynamical systems view. What anti representational okay. So i think it's dangerous in this discussion to you know and so with the original papers by mark and krishna right. They explicitly saying their papers is non representational. So it's extremely important to not confuse sort of way to map the neural data onto these behavioral concepts and entered. And just to it i. I'm just worried because it it it. It's it's is a component of dynamics when you basically have transitions between states but it's not an anti representational stunts that were taking on the contrary right so instead of dynamical systems is from the beginning from thank elder was was anti representational etc and then just be very clear so i need to me if you wanna do nisshin and you don't have a representational start is a non-starter in my it's just a nonstarter. I think david agrees. But that doesn't mean. And i just think a lot of people are beginning to think when it comes to cognition and the kinds of representations that cognition implies that doing interesting work with the ability to record from many neurons and the ability to do new forms of analysis on that is an interesting segue in a way in to trying to understand this form of representation It's but it's as david said it's a bat. But i think many other people are saying this is not just us. I think people are beginning to think that this is the way to ensure how these representations a computed over by having some neural data to look at. Is it just a bet that is going to give us insights. I'll add that. It's the case that. If i might be a little philosophy of science but my fosters cap on that the single neuron approach to understand. Cognition vision was really spinning. Its wheels for the past decade in half or more There was marginal seemingly marginal progress on certain issues. But not on these core complicated aspects of cognition. Furthermore the single neuron data that was being collected presented this bewildering array of responses. That didn't meet an easy story along the lines of previous sorts of single neurons stories. Will we call the sharing tony in view in the paper. So what you have is not just this fortuitous development of new techniques and recording many neurons new methods to analyze these Many neuron recordings but you have in the traditional complement of techniques Something like a crisis state where you're not making the kind of privacy would hope. Despite the huge sums of money in large data sets that were being collected. And i'll also add that this new kind of approaches new way of thinking about the brain of analyzing many neuron Many single neuron recordings where you have..
Brain Inspired
"david barack" Discussed on Brain Inspired
"Making a purchasing a plane ticket and you have a representation of a plane in your mind when you're planning this vacation but there's no plane in your environment right now. That's causing that representation. So there's some internal process that causes that representation even though you're not in the presence of planes and and of course there's a million examples of this type that we can use. You can think about things that don't exist and so on and so forth so there's a lot of sophisticated cognitive activity that goes on that requires this kind of internal action computation over internal structures in order to explain by the way this more sophisticated notion for presentation that we talk about. The paper has caused no end of controversy When we presented this material in lots of furious debate. I mean it's actually a very good example and this is very important here of where the philosophies a neuroscientist confused each other. Yeah okay the. It's actually very interesting. That i'm gonna let me just give another that. I can think help if you walk into your front door and you walk to your kitchen okay. You just do it. But if i asked you pull right now tell me how many left towns you take when you walk in the front door of your house to get your kitchen right now. You're going to have to use a representation right. You're going to have to think about the out your house. You're gonna have to imagine yourself looking through it and you're going to have to answer you're gonna have to do computation on that representation which is count. The number of tons per se late it. Yeah you're gonna have to simulated whereas that's not the case when you walk into your house and go to the kitchen. You cashed what you do use cues. You don't have to use a representation like that. That is a vast difference. Okay and that is what this is about now. It's very interesting that philosophers who have tried to naturalize their views representation and stick to the neuroscience what they do in most cases and there are exceptions is they strip the interesting aspect representation this simulation down to impoverished anemic version the representation which is a state that maps i some more physically onto some aspect of the environment. Okay neuroscientist also have that in published view right. It's just some coronation ultimately right so it's very important to realize. Interestingly that in an attempt to get into the neural data the interesting aspect of representation which is is full blown simulation that you efficacy can do which we haven't slightest idea how that happens by the way.
Brain Inspired
"david barack" Discussed on Brain Inspired
"That it's only useful to think about representations when you overtly deliberatively consult them and use them rather than just now trick of them like any other fees that cognition is a type of internal behavior. I think the values that embody our aims in our goals during inquiry can augment change the direction which are cognition unfolds. Even to the deepest to inference even to the sequences of mental states that are purportedly logically connected as a result of one mental state seemingly supporting another. That is a completely value-based kind of internal sort of behavior. That can be completely unconscious. So here's bias. Not just in action. But in inference and thought pattern. And i see no other way but to suppose that that is representational driven. So that's why. I have that view. But john i don't think you and i have ever debated system one per system too so this is interesting to note that that's absolutely true. I think that. I what i'm saying is it is somewhat autumnal that i think that if to the degree that we are worrying about cognition. I think we're worrying about something where you're overtly. It's intentional your consulting model of the world. I do think that you can have intelligent reflexes. All the way up into cognition and it's interesting to me that whether you know a reflects way of striking backhand or reflex way of thinking about something. I'm not so sure that different. But i do think that different is when you start getting into this overt intentional use of representation but it may not matter hugely to this debate but my guess is that there is a difference between cognitive reflex and inova deliberative process. This is an interesting distinction. I don't know if you want to go down the backhand essentially example to talk about this. But you know it makes me think of Going back to our automating. Right automating Premium when we were talking about Learning science and prematurely automating concepts And the difference when you're doing a backhand inflow state versus doing backhand when you are intentionally thinking about it and it screws up your backhand right..
Brain Inspired
"david barack" Discussed on Brain Inspired
"But i'll just go quicker. Because i know david you know will have more to say for them. As i think there are a number of things festival just to finish the conversation just do you think important to distinguish between sort of population doctrine ideas in other words. You don't have to invoke dynamics per se to be able to derive interesting properties from populations just ran from neurons and of course as dynamics and single neuron data. That's what the perish stimulus time histogram is right so you know. I think it's important to accidentally except there's a very important role for considering dynamics and trajectories in population level analyses but not to conflate them okay in other words that's one thing the the points if we're gonna worry about thinking coke nisshin and you have to say that there's something different between thinking and moving and there's something about the neuroscience of moving that isn't going to easily extrapolate to the neuroscience of thinking and that one's going to have to you know from the outside in well what is thinking united states. Who said what kind of representations does one have to vote has to talk about intense analogy when asked to talk about models of the world a detachable from a stimulus. The one has to think more about what sets cognition thinking apart from sensory motor system and actually appoint about mead seeing stroke patients. I can tell you that. I see uncoupling systems all the time at the the best example is the diving bound. The butterfly was written by the editor of french l. Dominique bobi where he had a pontiac hemorrhage was locked in and roshan entire book right now. He couldn't move at all right but he could write an incredibly beautiful book. Okay and all. I'm saying is whatever we end up understanding about how he wrote that book. It's going to require some extra thinking from how he lost his ability to move all right. So that's the first thing is except that there's a there's something about canham system to versus cannon system. One which i will flagrantly. Say a lot of movement to system one thinking system too. So that's which we start with and then go okay based on a bet. David i had. What kind of neuroscience is going to give us the best insights in jewish ins concepts to think about that difference between the cub to system in the sensory meta system. And the argument. Is that the hub field in view this idea of population level phenomena right which have dynamics a going to be the.
Brain Inspired
"david barack" Discussed on Brain Inspired
"And to really question Interpretations of data so As minor scientific training proceeded I went from reading the entirety of journal. Articles of puzzling. Through everything to focusing on intro discussion to a much more mature position where i focus on methods and results and being very skeptical of interpretive action in in in in these papers interpretive writing which oftentimes introduction into the discussion and so and and that has come about i think because i'm much more willing to say They keep using the term used infants. Earlier it is not easy to define what inferences it's it's one of those funny terms that get thrown around that can mean a lot of different things to different people so that's a good example where that might occur in a paper for example on seizing coding in the brain visual cortex insane. We'll talk about in france. And i'll say i don't really buy the story because this is a term. It's really a filler term that it can take on different meanings for different readers and I think i'm much more willing to to call that out to in my own reading my own annotations in what. I'm reading end to end to sort of deconstruct positions And to try and dig down and say how much of what they're segment turns on this funny notion here that's not well defined an and then what the next is okay. What are they actually doing. What did they actually find. And that's where you get this focus on methods and results and then you can say okay. Here's the tangible output from the study at. Here's their interpretation but it has all these conceptual issues. And of course john and i are of the opinion that there has been a recent flowering of conceptual issues and it pays to pay attention to some of them. That is a great segue. I believe to to talk about the paper and which is a. Let's see how do i. How do i introduce this paper..