3 Episode results for "Dave Janet"
On Fear and Leadership: Product to Sales CTOs & CEOs
"Hi everyone welcome. Today's podcast. i'm zonal and in this episode. Part of our founder operators series which you can find more of at ason dot com slash founder stories is about founders wrestling with how to evolve their roles from product to sales and the question of bringing in an external ceo or not. The conversation took place as a hallway style. Chat and features a six general partner. Martine casado who co-founded and was cto. Sarah and shared his own journey lessons learned and advice for founders at esiason's dot com slash external ceo. And then the voice. You'll hear after both of ours is armand dodd. Gar the co founder and cto of cloud infrastructure automation company hashish corp which enables enterprises to provision secure connect and run any infrastructure for any application. And while the to share their own journeys our conversation is really more broadly about the phases that all leaders and startups go through though they may end up in different places in this discussion. We touch on everything. From managing one's own psychology to managing specific tactics discuss swim lanes. And what enterprise. Sales means for ceos and more but we begin by outlining different mental models for describing different phases of leading a company. So i feel like leaders and startups go through three phases and starts require three different types of leadership phases. The first one is a product face. If you're going to be a leader of a startup early on like you have to be a product leader and your goal is to find product market fit which is sinking up a technology and a set of technology trends with a user and a need. And so you have to be kind of piped into the nervous system of the technology of the trends and of the users and how they use it in the problem domain and if you're not piped into that nervous system on both sides of it especially in court infrastructure like armand and i are both core infrastructure geeks then. I don't think you can lead the company correctly. So the first phase is the product phase the second phase of sales face. Which is now. You've got product market fit over time the economics of a company come down to go to market. Because that's variable costs right. Rnd becomes kind of sub linear cost and then to get more customers. You need to spend more money that drives your margin which drives your valuation. That's go to market and so if you don't understand how to do that go to market and becomes a sales leader like you kind of miss on that stage. What did you mean by the rnd. Cost trade off of variable costs. I actually did not understand that. Yeah so this is in the spirit of what is the most important thing to accomplish very simply and each one of these stages so in the first is finding product market fit. The second stage is getting a repeatable sales motion in a way that's solvent and has good unit economics and the reason that that's so important is if you look at the valuation of a company. The valuation of a company is driven by growth by margin. Probably by things like net dollar attention. Those are the numbers that feed directly into the valuation and those are driven by go to market and the reason they're driven by go to market because that's a variable cost. It's a cost that that you have to keep reoccurring in order to grow engineering on the other hand tens especially software in order to bring on that next customer. You don't necessarily need another engineer because pretty cheap to replicate bits right. So engineering tends not to scale linearly with the customers but go to market does so the more sales people you have the more customers you can get exactly so you normally have relatively caps productivity of sales reps. It's very hard to increase that so to get more dollars. You get more sales people or you start to do clever things with like indirect sales channels. But that will drive your and so it's very important to get those foundations right. And then the last ages an operation stage and the operation stages you're trying to get something to scale and now you've got all these operational challenges like you go from a single product company to a product portfolio company start engaging the channel you start engaging maybe these big partnerships and so it's a lot more of the mechanisms and of running companies or multiple companies that come into play and so i think as a leader you have to step up to each one of these stages and then either have to make the transitions to these stages or you have to bring in the people that know how to do. I love that framework. The first phase is about the technical product and of course the market user fit. The second phase is about figuring out how to really sell it to the right customers sales and go to market motion and then the third phase is really about scaling it. And when you say product portfolio you mean expanding product lines additional feature sets other new product lines etc or increasing the customer base without cannibalizing and customized. You really get into business operations. Often emanate will come in and a lot of this learning. I love that untolerable hadn't heard that way. There's a different sort of phraseology. I've read an i like to use. Which is it starts with a personality type that you might describe sorta pioneer right. It's the person likes high risk high uncertainty. they're sort of forging the path anything. That's sort of that. Phase one that you talk about defining product market fit right. There isn't a product there isn't clear market. You're sort of doing that. Pioneering work and think behind that person you bring in the town settler say okay great you forge the path but now you need some process you need some repeatability you need some structured. How the company runs no longer co five people in a garage. And i think that goes to your point of town. Settling phase is very much the great we have the product whereas the go to market. What's that reputable structure. And then i think that third phase that i've heard described as who you need as a leader as a city planner. That's perfect like you have a structure but now it's a great. It's not ten houses now. I want to build a metropolis right. And you know what i like about describing that you can almost imagine in your mind. The personality differences right. And it's become so obvious that the city planners a fundamentally different person than the pioneer. I do think it's worth pointing out that often. It can be the same person. But what i think people miss is. How hard founders that make. Those transitions work to make these first-class problems. There are fantastic. Ceo's that come from deep deep technical backgrounds and may transitions integrate sale. Ceo's when i speak with them. It's like i'm speaking to a salesperson. I mean they're obsessed with go to market. it's all they think about. It's all they talk about. It's the books. They read all the questions that i get. It's how the board has done. And so i absolutely think those are the three personality types i think often three different types of people can fill that but when the same person does they make almost a full metamorphosis there's one takeaway it's like if you wanna make these stages yourself you to be totally obsessed with the stage that you're in and you had to be self aware enquiring liz. And a lot of people bring an executive coaches and leaders to help them train them and there's so much value in that because it requires a awareness b willingness and see quite frankly ability then to evolve because everyone comes along in that journey. And sometimes you might also four. Make a choice which we can talk about in a moment. I'm also glad you pointed that out. Martine because what i also wanna push back on a little bit armand is. Is it really that linear. We've had jodi bustle since podcast of and he did a podcast on the evolution from technical to product to sail. Ceo then we had our own. David ula vich where he told his story from open. Dns to at cetera. And it's a kind of thing when david told his story. It feels like we talk about this journey as a bit of a linear journey. And of course i understand it from a growth and scaling perspective but it seems like there's a phase where you're trying to figure out go to market and sales and technical product at the exact same time right and so how do you get that benefit no. Yeah that's a good point. I don't think it is totally linear the framers. I think are a useful mental model but not reality and so i think the reality is a company might be at a super early stage on the go to mark actually might be able to mature place from a product perspective right and so there's this non linear you might be in different places in different parts of the company. One thing that evolved notices even something as simple as a different gio can actually be a different phase of the company can actually have to do with product and not just sale so for example. You sell them the us. Then you go to say europe and then the actual competitive environment is different right into the actual positioning of the product and the problems and cases you solve to which actually roll back into product so absolute this case. I do think it's useful to think of these three tiers as kind of like energy states and that he can move down and up into energy states. Like let's say you get to the sales energy state but then there's a macro shifts in the environment of the now you're backed down in. The product market fit energy states. But here's the thing for a leader. I you should know which energy state you're in you should know like is like the sales operations is a product market fit et cetera. And then number one test is if you wake up in the morning if that's not what you're thinking about like you've not yourself made the transition your emotions as the leader particularly ceo should be one hundred percent in line with like that primary focus of the company. So then i have a question for you guys. Is it always in the hands to make this choice. Did you have a choice. That the ceo or to be the. Did you get to decide or to decide that for you. I gotta ask many many times to the ceo of the company. And i actually went through three. Ceo's and there are long periods of time with transition where there's no ceo in which case i was the de facto ceo. But what was interesting was for me. I also aside the ceo's kind of a clerical job seriously. i feel the same way. I'm like i wanna be like the person who's the metal of the creativity. So i feel for you right. I'm like okay. My entire job is to find. Repeatability and find product market fit into a line technical architecture that research the market. I don't have time to deal facilities. I don't have time to it. And all these other things. I've got a focus on that. And in retrospect my very naive perception of what a see. Yoda's i honestly thought that it would be a waste of my time. But then we found product market fit and then we went to a transition and then the question was like. okay martine. Do you want to go do sales and liba stage of the company. And i actually thought about it a lot and then i realized at that time. We needed that knowledge in the company. I didn't have that knowledge. I started talking to people that had that type of knowledge and mike calculus at the time was like you know i can get someone who's pretty good as coo and do that or get someone who's really good and give them a ceo and having created the technology. I wasn't worried about my position in the company are cloud or credibly. I mean i've been there for three years. It was my company etcetera. But i love the hash corp story because they were actually solving their own problem. Which is a real problem. I kind of had the bar creek path. Which is come up with this solution. Which was kind of a grand unified theory of doing networking software defined network software defined networking and. It can solve a bunch of problems. But we weren't exactly sure what was the most important problem having been trained to think about like okay. We've got this very elegant solution now. Of course all these problems will falls can the wrong thing and so coming out of academia we almost had the une work that muscle and just really be very use case focus and then use that to figure out the mechanism as opposed the other way round and for us. It probably took two years. I see this get repeated all the time it's like one of the major pitfalls of going from academia into start a plan. Well i have a question about this because one of the challenges and you've actually argued previously and other episodes of podcast that you actually think that computer science is now like mormon engineering honestly calling. The emperor has no clothes. Maybe this is is our but the point about the use cases is really interesting to me because the number one thing that a ceo or a founder of a company has to do whether academic or otherwise is sell their product and figure out who that customer is. And when you start with the use case it's sort of a dance a chicken egg thing. Do you get the use cases that that's what the product's going to be or is it that it's we're over rotating on the wrong customer and actually this is not the use case. But they're the ones who are paying us money yet when people ask me sorta like what's the biggest advice to give people or what was the big lesson for you. I think the thing that we got wrong was. We'd actually didn't know who our customer was for the first few years of the company when people ask me. Hey we'd say everybody what you realize is the same. As what became obvious for us. We actually started building a go to market. Is the two person you know garage team. They want to swipe their credit card and pay five dollars a month and not talk to you and then the person who's in a fortune ten wants you to sign a three hundred page master service agreement and if they're paying less than one hundred thousand dollars sort of uncomfortable you end up realizing that the go to market motion is so different. The pricing and packaging is so different the features different when we said. Hey we'll go right down the middle. There's nobody there when we started the company you know. The focus was very much. Hey let's build the products focus on getting product market fit. You know doing the evangelism and building the community around things. And then i think well we had that sort of. I'll call it a crisis of identity. Right which was as a company or as a person both difference the founder. There's this sort of very distinct and late. Twenty fifteen for us where we. We'd sort of finished building out the open source portfolio. The last few pieces were there and the board sort of asked us instead cable. What's hasha corporate the company and we're like That's an interesting question. And i think that kicked off a multi months-old search for us to really say okay when we grow up. Who do we want to be our rian. Smb focus company business. Enterprise focused company the big customers and where we ultimately landed says. Say yes we want to be an enterprise business when we grow up and then the sort of follow on questions like an enterprise company. What's the product right like. You don't have an enterprise product. Just a bunch of open source into there was a product discovery. And i think the third piece of it was you know to your point who leads this and then all of a sudden and mitchell mitchell hashimoto is my co founder and the namesake of the company. Look at each other and say okay. Well neither of us. Has you know we barely worked in an enterprise company let alone lead an enterprise. Go to market okay. Well who's gonna lead the company and thus next phase but at some point. You had made a similar decision. That i did. Which is you could have brought in that expertise and a different role you brought in a vp of sales. And like she or whatever. Yeah why did you not just stay. Ceo in the more technical but still visionary ceo and then bring in because the whole point of ceo is. David delivers describes it. As you don't have to be the one all the answers you actually can draw and everyone else to be the experts. So why don't you take that model like bringing you don't think we actually set out to bring a. We started our search around saying. Hey what if it's a president. Joe you know maybe a super senior other c. level executives. That's not a ceo. And i think as we went through the search and we found david mcdonagh who is now our ceo. And i think just the dynamics of his personality and the way him and mitchell and is sort of work together it clicked in this way. What i love about davies so low ego that i think he also didn't feel strongly about like. Hey do you want me to be. Coo do you want me to be ceo but there needs to be some clarity around. Who does what and how so. How did you guys get from the moment of will disguise actually not going to be our president or our ceo. He's going to be the ceo. And hey i'm okay not being that. Ceo like tell me about that realization. Specifically yeah i think when when you talk about the process of trying to bring in senior executive certainly at ceo coo level. It's such a serious higher. That the way i describe it to people as like it's almost like dating for significant other culture fit. We have the same fiscal discipline. I mean multiple responsible communicate in a similar way. We handle stress in a similar. Is that someone there that that person needs to be similar. Don't you want someone different not similar but at least compatible right like if you feel like hey every time we talk to each other. It's like we're talking past each other like we're on two different brainwaves entire rate. So i wouldn't say we're carbon copies of each other. But there's a certain compatibility and work style. And why did you not want to be the person to martines earlier. Point to just say. Hey i want to learn and take on the skill and quote evolve in this way instead of going to war technical other stuff. Why don't you make that fork in the road. I think i'll echo martin's point which i feel like was incredibly naive and i think what became clear. We went through this dating process with david that it was so obvious. His depth of experience was so much deeper than mine so many of these sort of go to market areas that yes i learn from him and he could be a mentor and i sort of come up to speed over time sure but it became obvious that the enormity of that challenger became clear. What the more time. I spent you basically like really good at what they do. Why not let them be the best at them. And you'd be the best that you exactly so it's like am i going to be enabling him to be more effective. Co or am. I going to be in his way. Well it also seems that we had many similar ingredients. And i wonder if this has to do with it so for example it seems like you and mitchell didn't have any title fetishism and in our company. Nobody had title fetishism mike. Ceo ceo didn't really matter like there wasn't a lot of emotion behind the specific job roles. Were like the actual titles. The second one is actually ironically. So we brought in a guy named steve mullany. Who's one of the reasons we are successful. I learned pretty much everything that i know from him. I'm so happy we brought him in. He also has a marketing background. Just like dave janet's we new go to market and positioning and had a launch in all of these other things. Which is i m. i think when it comes to product marketing in particular. Like you can't it you have to have done it. And it's way less systematic than sales. I mean it really is kind of art. Plus logic domain expertise but then also steve and of course dave was incredibly low ego so we spoke for months and in no point in time i think. Oh this person's gonna want to take over. The reins is going to change a vision of the company. Like you know it's gonna do like a palace coup or whatever and so like if you have these initial conditions where you're like you just want the right thing to happen and you don't have this kind of like like insecurity about losing ground and the person coming in you know. They're going to work with you and they're gonna be relatively low ego then. The question is is basically who wants to do what. And who's in the best position to do. What and in our case. It seems like in your case we kind of came to the same conclusion. I think there's this moment where you're like if you make this sort of handing the keys over that sense of comfort that this won't be a palace. Coup is so critical honestly. I had a moment. I ended up talking. I remember to cleanse. Solomon one of our board members. And i was like i need you to just sort of. Walk me off this cliff right like i'm not ready to sort of hand over the keys. What did he say that helped you. Walk you off that cliff. I think it was sort of a reaffirmation like ultimately you guys are the product visionary your company the credibility of it's built around the two of you and so it's like we would obviously support whatever change needs to take place but i think that was super important for us to hear from the board. I'm so glad you brought up the board support. Because i don't think you can do these unless the board comes to the founders and really are very clear about their position in the company and certainly in my case to a person they said. This is your company. This is your vision. We're gonna get someone that's compatible with that. And so. I knew that they were kind of like on my team. As opposed to again like the dynamics right instead of making an adversarial pitting two opponents against each other and their nerina very very creative. And so certainly anybody. That's facing this. I definitely think that having the support and anybody. That's on a board of a company. That's going through the transition i think really needs to support the founders in these sorts of transitions eighteen. I think is great that you're gonna having titled fetish but frankly that's a luxury because in reality and a lot of companies you of need the title to know role. Sometimes ownership is not so clear. So there's a lot of fuzzy thing that happened in the real world with this. so tactically. did you guys like sit down and iron out like a plan like a transition plan for how you're going to divide up. Who does what i mean. I want specifics like dance. Your way rounded 'cause honestly it's also not fundamentals on the company to watch that dance because andy get confused. So how did you navigate that. So i've got a very simple answer. Which is ours aligned with basically a transition from an academic platform me. Yeah yes armand put it like. We didn't know what we want to grow up to. We kind of had an idea of what we wanted to build and they wanted to take market so when someone comes in in that transition. There's just a bunch of new work to do that. We weren't doing before in order to pick up and so that made it much easier. As opposed to someone coming in mid-flight copyright pilots as either a clear marcation in the phase of the company that brought in a whole new set of needs so it was sort of like picking the right moment to like into that next day looking into the maybe picking it on any thoughts on that on the tactical side of the how. It's amazing to me. How many analogies. I feel like there are between our two stories. I'd say we were in very much. The same boat of going from that phase. One product market fit into great. We have the products. There's a community. There's a user base that phase. Two of okay. We have a few customers but it's not repeatable there's not really a process and so that whole build out of the go to market and sort of getting in from sort of phase one to phase. Two focus was exactly. We brought dave in and so i think for us. It was really natural. It's like hey you. And mitchell keep focusing on the product side of things product development. You know things like that. And dave helped really focused on okay great. We need to bring a new leaders run marketing and sales and go to work. Okay so then my next question. There's a tendency. And i actually called the divide between the head and the hand and the reality is that while you might say. Hey this person designated as a product visionary this person sort of the person who's going to scale and build the operation in the machinery. The reality is that there is overlap. They're not so clearly demarcated and quite frankly the best people should not just be where one person has quote the head and one person is quote the hand you wanna hand who has had and had wells his hand so my question is how do you as a product visionary make sure. That person is empowered to still have insights into the product. Yeah the way we describe it as like. This is very clear line in the sand where it's like you run this and we run this. Dave runs go to market and we run product. But i think the reality is we operate much more closely like we probably spend hours every in some sense. Hey given the same data we probably are going to come to similar conclusions about what needs to be done and so that we spend a lot of time staying in super close sink and it might be. Hey here's what we're thinking about doing here in product. If does this make sense to gut check us and similarly. Hey here's what. I'm thinking in terms of what we need to be doing on it from a marketing investment sales investment. Does this make sense to you. And mitchell and so i think it's much more of a partnership as opposed to the hand never interacting. That's great yeah so i totally agree with that. I'm going to add a dynamic to this question which is so you can bring someone to say a coo like we've discussed but one of the functions that these bringing in somebody that's kind of a senior executive understands the enterprise go to market one of the primary functions hiring a real team right and that's very important. It's hard to do if you haven't done it before. And one thing that i've learned is it's very dangerous to give someone the ability to say higher without actually accountability for that hire. They're hiring somebody that would report to me for example and i had to manage them because they don't have the accountability. You have a very different process. And so i think that creating your organization in the way that as you build out your organization. It's very clear that you're accountable. For the decisions you make is incredibly important. As opposed to non. And the reason i tagged it onto the previous question. Which is you're always working very close together and you share information and it almost sounds like a totality of the same company. Name exact tame right but you can actually get it wrong the way you get it wrong as you have decisions without accountability and you have to bake that in somehow accountability concretely. What you mean. I mean if i'm it let's say i know something that doesn't know because i don't go to marketing doesn't so i tell him how to do it. But i'm not accountable for what i told then. Basically i don't have to be as conservative as dependent on the seems to in my experience. This material is the most hiring. Like i heard someone to put undermined and say it doesn't work out on the. I'm on not a good manager right. Even though you're the one who has the luxury of being like a person so i would just say as you go into these partnerships. Whether you're hiring someone is a ceo or just make sure that these major executive decisions align with with the count ability. Yeah more direct skin in the game. You have the more accountability. You have that the way we've done. It is basically the entire executive staff reports directly to dave so he has to your point. That accountability is paired with the autonomy. Right it's not go hire people and have them report today becomes a bigger head. You're actually making him empowered exact right but at the same time. I wouldn't say that we are sort of been disconnected from the process. Like if he's the hiring manager on it. I'm sort of number two on that panel in terms of doing the interviews. So we did the same thing i did. Try kind of more of you know. I hire and put it under somebody else they hired and they put it under me and like that's a mess. Weird tactical question. How do you handle things like all hands. Were you explain what the company roadmap is what people are doing like do both you and the ceo do it together. Martine did you see oh do it with the take turns depending on the topic. Well this goes back to like these low ego. Ceo's that you bring in the case of steve and he was so fantastic was we would do an all hands and he'd be up there. I was always up there with him. And if we did press. Like i was in the press and often he wanted me up there and he didn't even want to deal with this customer interaction a cetera. So i mean it was almost like the apprenticeship on the planet because i was in the line of fire for whatever it was and so i do. Think that if you're gonna bring in a ceo you want someone of that ilk. I would say one thing on that when we say low ego which i love you guys are saying that but i think it deserves to all the people out there who might be aware that they have yuji goes you can actually be aware of your own shortcomings and strength. And you know you're swim lanes and where you're strong and not strong and you can share the stage with others when people play to their strengths and you can be partners even if you have an go. I point that out because otherwise if feels like an insurmountable personality barrier. That's ego paired with self-awareness. Or maybe someone knows the right thing to be successful able to put their egos aside. They're playing the long long game. There we go and you're about to add something to his. I'll hand thing. I think when the company was super early really wasn't an executive team it was. You know me and mitchell dave presenting at the all hands on a weekly basis. The once we built out an executive team we'd switched over to a new model which is basically every week we rotate which function presents the functional leader of let's say sales and marketing present this week and the next week it's product and engineering and then whatever for all those groups that present that's great so really it's like you know dave presents maybe once a quarter in terms of hey here's the retrospective of what happened last quarter. Here's what we're sort of thinking next car will happen and mitchell actually have sort of an out of cycle sort of fireside chat with the founders every quarter or two so we actually on a weekly basis aren't even necessarily the reporting face of the all hands so a couple more quick tactical questions. How about the recruiting. So you alluded to this earlier. So martine in your case when you were trying to recruit steve. There are actually like three periods. Where you didn't have a ceo at each one of those you could've just stepped in and kind of default. Become the ceo. A what made you resist that temptation and be. How did you actually go about getting the right like what did that look like. So when we first started the company honestly like the ceo title with just arbitrary three founders to professors in me. We decided to give the famous professors. Ceo title. We all just basically did what we did. And the only two of us actually had day to day responsibility so the professor was just got shankar. Went back to berkeley then. We decided to bring in an interim ceo. We figured things out. And at that point i had a couple of the league kind of angel. Investors will be like. Hey martini to the like this radio. This is your company. And i'm like i don't know this stuff i really need to figure out you know. This is the bottom of like the worst economic recessions. This get somebody in here. That can help this. I would strongly recommend ever getting an interim ceo. We just never should have done. It seems like a really reasonable thing to do for me. It goes back to accountability. You can't make the right technical decisions if you don't have to live with the consequences so i think docked responsibility to the company because i didn't want to deal with it and i really should've just stepped up and become ceo. I was effectively acting as a ceo. Anyways and i should have just done this. I think was trying to take the easy path. That was a mistake though. It was put fried the board. So i would never do that to one of my companies. I don't recommend that but then you know it was actually andy. Radcliffe new steve mullany. Who was only enough interim ceo. At paul alternate routes for a little while. But you know very famous well known. Vp of marketing that had done a number of companies. And we just started talking. We did that kind of dating thing that went for a long time and we spoke with so many that he was just such a clear fit in the history of nasira hiring. Steve was probably the best decision. I made all stops. These things can really change the trajectory of company. Well you also have the confidence. Though you're the inventor and your name is like the first author on the paper was the thing is like that was researcher right is she was the only founder still companies. I wanted to probe on a little bit. Because i want to. Just talk about the product. Visionary role how that evolves so as a founding technical ceo. I mean you're the inventor of offer define networking. nobody can take that away from you like. That's just something you just have. This visceral product market fit for however there is a point in everything where there may be conflicts especially as you expand into different product lines or different areas who then makes the final call as a product visionary. Do you get that authority as well. He was first and he invented it. But what if the company goes in a different direction especially if you're successful quite frankly wenders accessible you do expand into different directions. How do you negotiate that bit. I think conflict is so interesting because what's nice about it in some senses. That reflects that we're going into it with probably a different set of data and a different set of sort of priors in terms of our belief of. Why do we think decision. A versus b. is the right thing to do and i think what's happened for us is oftentimes when we there is that kind of conflict. It's a hey let's dig into that and say was why. Why do you think a. Why do i think b o. You think there's a great market opportunity for example if we built this product i think. Actually that's a legacy market. That's dying as we go to cloud as an example and so i think that disagreement ends up being a good opportunity. Sort of yourself and say. What are the assumptions. Were making and go deeper. And i think what has happened for us. Almost one hundred percent times as we drill deeper and say let's figure out what these underlying assumptions aren't where does our data disagree Priors disagree usually. We can reconcile that and say. Oh actually you're right you're data was right reminded was right and once those are correct then the answer ends up being the right way one or at least we agree on sir so to me. It hits on something said earlier. Which is it's actually about. I always say this. It's not what people say it's how they say it's about communication and you mentioned that you wanted to check communication styles when you're looking at hiring your ceo. And what i love about that discussion is when you say the word partnership you guys are partners etc that involves style of communication where people can understand each other's points of view and the core idea behind what you said is that it's about understanding the theme underlying it like what is the rationale driving that thing and you actually find in many situations in life let alone company building that there's actually linemen and people's values and principles on that thing but they might get like very quickly if you can get past that prickly phase right when someone says i disagree you can either take that at a personal level and say okay. You're disagreeing with me personally as bad. That's one way to look at it or the other is say you know there's something more fundamental that were misaligned exactly. Let's go deeper and understand what feels opportunities in the idea. On both sides you can actually become greater than the thumb of the individual parts and it goes back to needing that ability to have that honest discourse with one another. If you're not comfortable saying you disagree with someone. You don't have a level of trust a level of depth relationship the partnership has to be at that level where you can say. Hey i disagree. Let's dig into it without that being a you know. Whoa i would love to actually tackle a related thing. That's hard for founders to here. Which is a i totally agree with what you're saying but sometimes that's actually a hard pill for us to swallow as founders So i fundamentally believe in earned positions. I don't care what you've done in the past doesn't mean you're relevant today. That's why don't tenure. For example it's sort of like one of those logical fallacies so instead of saying appeal to authority its appeal to my credible history. Seriously i really think that like you should always add value make yourself relevant so i think that founders need to stay tremendously relevant and just because you founded the company and just because you did the core work doesn't mean that you get a free pass and so in my case i did the core research. I built the original team. I found the product market fit. I did the product. Did all of that early stuff. We know of course with that other team. I didn't do it by myself. But then it was sales time now. I didn't know the mechanics of sales. But i got an airplane and i did tell them you have to make that transition and i think if you don't i don't think the ceo showed. Listen to you. I really appreciate the way you put that of like you have to continue adding value which is as the company grows your role changes only every six months. My job is to rediscover what my job is. Because it's not the same job it was when you started even the same job as a year ago. So that's the way people often say they being like the greatest like professional development thing. I would quick question about selling what happens. You often start in the beginning with the the founder and then martini made the point that the second phase of the companies have a repeatable sales process which sometimes is product marketing materials and things that people can plug and play without having to have this charismatic person. Walk into the room and said here's my vision. How do you scale that in. This model like what happens to sales in this model where another. Ceo comes in. Are you still sort of the showboat pony. I think what i loved about. Dave still love. I should say is given his product marketing background. I goes to. I think to martines point of like that is such a tremendously useful experience. Because really i think what. Dave understood like yes. It's clear that there is a concrete problem. Solving it's clear the practitioners use unloved tools. But what the company has done a good job of right. Mitchell were open and honest. We haven't distilled the core messing of the product. The core truths of. How do we help someone who's not super deep understand. What is the problem. How does the product. How does it solve that for you. What's the value of it. And i think he has that marketing mind in terms of. Okay i understand the product. I understand this landscape. How do we kind of distill that into central truth and that essential truth can be conveyed whether it's by you know me and mitchell as the show pony or whether it's you know a sales engineer and a salesperson so what i'm hearing what you're saying there it's basically the difference between turning it inside out like here's a visionary selling the vision and making it more outward in other people can articulate that vision and see it and make it more machine-readable make the tacit more explicit so that other people essentially pick. It used to be if you ask me. Hey what does the product do. What's value. I'd need an hour to do you have a whiteboard on an hour to spare. Yeah and i think what he saw was like. Yeah that's they can't work. You have to have the elevator pitch. You have to be able to explain to an executive and five slots devalues. So i'm gonna take the other side of this so there's a very big difference between sales mechanics which is like. How do you do pricing. I didn't able to channel hackett naval sales. You know what is the packaging's what are the customers you go after like you know like the actual mechanics and then selling we're selling. Is you walk in and you do the knife fight and you show the value paint the vision etc. Yeah no a lot of the mechanics of repeatable sale. What does the sales that. How do you position how do you do and head get in. But here's the reality for the world are on and i live in when we're both hardcore tech infrastructure folks and we've sold to the enterprise in generally about twenty percent of the deals are eighty percent of the dollars and if you're asking for ten million dollars which many many times they have to be convinced on the totality of the solution from the genesis of the company to the technology to techno strategic classic to everything else and that's done by founders who've seen that they've got the long view and then you know the off the team not the sales team. These are the sales engineers that will scale someone like armand and so i totally agree that all the mechanisms positioning and for that transaction business. That gives you a lot of predictability. It operationalized the sales team. But when i left about six hundred million dollars run rate. And i was still doing ten to thirty million dollar deals and i do think that that's a very very important for founders to continue to play. That's a great point which i think. The nature of enterprise sales hasn't changed now. The reality is like no the person who's going to sign a ten million dollar check wants to know. Hey are you a partner that i can bet on gonna be here for us for the next five. Ten twenty years is very different. If you have a small deals is your to self serve but if you're paying kind of money you want the full red-carpet attention as core infrastructure. I mean like this is like you keep saying that just to make it clear to me. What does that mean that its core infrastructure. What difference does that make so core infrastructure means. it's the foundation. You're building your systems on. It's like rebar in like the value. The house up these amazing cloud workflows. This isn't like i've got this productivity app that i'm using and then maybe tomorrow not gonna use. You wanna make sure that you have that relationship and then you just understand the totality of the vision which is includes where things came from and where they're going. If it's such core infrastructure honestly my takeaway is your kind of entrenched and the switching costs are too high. They're gonna move. So don't bother. You're going to send other folks on the road. It's not just the initial investment of. Hey we wanna partner with asia corbin and sort of use this as a foundational technology. It's as they adopt other pieces of portfolio or new features. It's sort of the same conversation you're having which is great. Maybe we took a bet on you for this piece of our stack and technology but hey this is a different piece of technology and as we adopt more more the criticality of utah to them increases right and i think if you look at companies like microsoft almost every business in the world microsoft has blue critical to their functioning right like they would implode of microsoft and exists so basically every new product line that's significantly different than the existing that they bought is essentially like a new. Start up within your company. It is the way we talk about. As we're almost four companies in one and i think with every new product that a customer adopts there's another degree of dependency or mcaliskey that they're taking on our relationship right expanding account leads to basically atallah retention which is one of the most important numbers to the valuation of company. Net dollar retention is how much an existing customer will expand their spend net. The turn that the amount that decide not to do it anymore right. So that drives valuation more than like a annual contract a new contract value and so any company that's not focused on making their customers successful and then increasing their value in the account is not going to build a large company. You just can't do that anymore so so. This idea is based on the infrastructure. I'm gonna walk away and not do it again. It's a failure right. I mean like you have to have that relationship increase. You have to be invested in the success of the summer. That makes perfect sense okay. So we've kind of covered the timing that there's actually both of you guys is cases. There's a common timing when you guys made this choice. So that was a key factor the idea of partnering. We've talked about the importance of being self aware and having a mental models. Even if it's not necessarily linear we've talked about some of the specific tactics including different aspects across the board. How'd you diligence in this marriage. Dance with marriage as you actually have dating. You can referenced. People you could do credit run checks on the gas and do other background checks in many ways. It's actually not that dissimilar. You spend a lot of time. Back door references. Right who've worked with them right whether above them or below them or adjacent to them right getting a sense of. How do they treat their peers. How do they treat their reports. How do they manage upward. I think a lot of it is bringing them into your problem space. I think that was an important part for us was like. Hey let's not talk about hypotheticals. Let me really lay out. Hey how would you think about doing this. How would you structure go to mark. Because you're not doing it in a thirty minute interview that they come in. And then you make a decision right like it's a multi month process. So they have time to really soak in that context and sort of make an informed analysis. Do you learn from it. And i think that for us was the really big thing i mean. You really need to show everything. I think you have to almost anti cell because like the failure mode is hiring the wrong personality fire because so much more disruptive to bring somebody in. That doesn't work out. You really want the right person. There wasn't anecdote that stimulating the co iheart afterwards. He's like you know when we were doing this dating dances. Here's what do martine. I would basically keep asking you the same questions and then out pretend that i didn't understand and i just wanted to see if you get frustrated with me. I'll fuck testing looking for lineman but he's just in your reaction. I mean i think there's a general rule in start just so useful to implement whether it's creating a border hiring people like you should do it with bad times. Might the times you normally like higher based on the good times like oh i want to have the best sport ever and this and that really the bad times on these things kick in some any parting thoughts for those out there who are negotiating with themselves or others whether to be the ceo or to bring in an outside ceo. Any parting piece of advice. I think you have to be super honest with yourself. And like what motivates you that level of honesty with yourself of. What do i want to do and why do i want to do. It is super critical. Because i think if you can answer that then it becomes pretty obvious of like. Hey if you really do get energy from co you really are motivated by that growth and that that sort of challenge then. Maybe it's right for you to do that. But if you have a different not a worse set of motivations right like i think there was a different set of motivation for. We love the price. We wanna see. The technology succeed and the best way for that to happen was for us not to leave the company. If there's one piece of advice i'd give it's a decision out of fear and that can operate on both sides. I think i brought an interim ceo of fear as opposed to actually stepping up. And i think a lot of people don't bring in the ceo at fear. And i think fear more than anything else clouds dis-decision it's very clearly insecurity fear issue and that's a total failure mode fear of loss of control. Yeah exactly and i made this mistake myself. Brought in somebody because you were afraid that you couldn't do it and i really think that this is an abdication of your responsibilities founder and so just like step aside from the fear make the right decision. Well martine arman benke. Virginia's episode of the acc podcast. Thanks so much.
SaaStr 377: Hashicorp CEO Dave McJannet on Scaling Remote Teams; What Breaks and When, How To Successfully Execute Multi-Product Strategies and How Leadership Style Evolves with Company Stage
"We are bound. Welcome to another week in the world of SAS one. ABSO. We have in store for you stay with the one on the false growing enterprise companies of all time David Janet. How she caught providing consistent workflows to provision six, connect and run any infrastructure for any application and today the companies raised three hundred and forty, nine, million dollars in funding from some of the very best in the business including Bessemer read point tree vanishes I've EP Mayfield TV and. To name a few as David privacy copy held some incredible roles including VPN Martinez get hub an Houghton works. Before that. He was also senior director of product Matia VM and also has been over five years seeing the firsthand hyper growth of Microsoft I'd say huge. Thank to Scott Rainy Glenn Solomon Thome Lavar Almond Dan go robin. Debut on some truly fantastic questions, gestures today, and you can tell from not listed. It was really team a huge thanks for that. But before we dive into the show stay let me stay the. Video consumption has skyrocketed over the last six months more than ever. Developers need to be able to quickly build Rossall video into their applications and Marxism Api I platform that means building online video experiences. Easy. What Stripe does to payments MAZDAS does for Video Max, handle, storage, encoding, and delivery. So your development team can focus on building product. Live streaming is just as easy and muscle will scale with you. As you grow whether you're serving a few dozen streams or a few million designed by video is person trusted by companies is so cycle robinhood VISCO, and hoping to name a few you'll video will work perfectly. On every device, every time sign up for a free account to get twenty dollars credit at mucks, dot com, and every great product needs great marks and you have to check out in the book no forms, no spam. No cold cools it's a wakeup call for modern Marxism Saleh's guide to digital and traditional strategies that are no longer working and focusing on customer experience to drive revenue. Growth and this book is more than lofty theoretical ideas he delivers proven to be strategies takes plans that are ready to be adapted customized untested by eighteen sales. Leaders provides a step by step guide to move your revenue teams away. From 'em Q. L. focused approach and align them around an ABM model fundamentally puts prospects US check out more six cents, dot com slash sastre six, the number sense dot com slash sastre, and lost. But by no means least, there's always competition and Asia's Maze Comparative Analysis. Easy. There to show you how you'll comparisons getting traffic from Google I'm y you can see the pages and content send them the most search traffic, find out the key words ranking ranking for and which battling are helping them moist from that, you can replicate or improve strategies. If you'll know getting significant traffic eight stress tools also helped to. Find topics, worth creating pages or content on. You can easily see estimated search teams and gauge traffic potential with that keywords explorer to if you all getting such traffic features is like that talk pages report to break down which of your pages of bringing the most traffic. Then figure out how you can replicate that success want to learn more check out that blog YouTube Channel step-by-step SEO's Utah Oriels they have a seven-day trial phony seven dollars had over two eight SCHRAFFT'S DOT COM to sign up. That's a H RAFF STORE COM to sign up that is quite enough me. So now I'm very excited handed Dave. Janet. Ashi Cob. That's perfect. Okay. I think we're warmed up David is such a joy. As to, as I said, before I felt like a bit of having spoken to so many of our mutual friends from score any state one to almond top Navarrese. Thank you so much for joining me. Stay Dave. Thanks. Thanks to them for responding this. Gave me some great stories but I do like. Some contacts I, how did you make your way as the world of SAS? Let's stop that started my career in the world of finance actually I moved to the bay area when my girlfriend now my wife can be Grad school and after a bunch of moving around I ended up working in product development, actually a middleware company and did that for four years and I the first time I went to a retail store credit card and you that that transaction was going through stuff that we had envisioned in built I was Kinda hooked forever up being in the world of. Enterprise software ever since what has been telling me as I said many investors and especially Jean Robin now mind game he said Oscar database what was the processing meeting and taking a job as CEA? Hash. Robin introduced me to mental about a year and a half before I agreed to join them at the time they've got fast forward. I'd run marketing for a couple of companies had really good gross runs into the public markets and I was certainly not looking for another job and then so I helped him out in the background around a couple of young guys working in. The world of open source infrastructure. Again, that's pretty small ven diagram of expertise, and so I met with them over and over and over again and eventually they came back to me and said, hey, would you like to joining us time and I was like no I'm good startups or hard and eventually that became okay. Would you bitch joining to run marketing? Then it was like you've mentioned running the COO role and I said, no, I'm good and then they came back and said, would you be interested in joining CEO Nicer? So I'm not really interested in doing the company. But I was kind of intrigued because I couldn't quite explain what the products did but I knew that they were integral to this cloud transition and if you pattern match to the companies that we'd had success with, it was big market transitions going from one way of doing things to another way of doing things which was dislocating category spent that just incredibly impressed with them but I really had no interest in being a CEO as a no new then to your job is a very difficult one. So it took it for amount of sort of internalizing for me to say okay Let's do this. I'm going to take up the clothes and jump in the pool yet again into the unknown, I think we look at it in terms of market model and team. When you look at companies opportunities in the markets revisit described the model it's like these guys built open source things which are interesting to me. But really it was the team side of it jokingly said a couple of times my wife who had been in the world for some time said. If. You can't build something valuable with these guys in your idiot I think eventually took that to heart and join us about four and a half years ago. It's been a phenomenal phenomenal exercise and Actually Credit Robin Basan Roberson Ironically was on the board of that middle or company that I did so many years earlier and the United didn't touch. He'd been trying to get me into one of those companies for awhile, and this is the one that we're bringing somebody into. Early Stage Company for any founder is a massive massive decision and took a lot of sort of mutual sort of vetting on both sides for us both to be comfortable that we were aligned to what we're trying to build, and it's been really really fun I Lina. It's a massive on my father. Told me, Harry if you want a happy marriage simple just what your wife says. Remembered, that one is every day one logical step further. It's a massive thing for them in a huge to them for taking not stab was a big and very, very difficult thing for you nor is the founded Ashim see year role. So early, more leaving come traditionally issued, what was he lines take the from the founder and how did you make it work? I was from Scott rainy always things are ultimately about trust. It's no different than any sort of endeavor whether it's relationship or whether it's company building selling software to people about trust and I think you have to enter into it with that view, which is I. Think they understood my interest was in spilling a billing something valuable and not really to about what seat anybody was going to be and. There's a certain core truce to companies and somebody has to be CEO so that everything is aligned and so that was actually relatively seamless transition and it only happened because of them they projected view internally and externally that says, Hey, we've recognized that we have particular superpower around certain things building companies much more than those things, and so we want to partner with people that can help us help this company realized its potential takes giving up the Co to do so then we're totally Cool with that and that level of humility I think is kind of amazing but also indicative of those guys. So step one was just real clarity around what the rule would look like and yes companies have to be structured a certain way number two really only work because of the way that they embraced it and the number three you know very very quickly and it's kind of ironic because I want to reflect back on the last three large runs pad we did it the same. Way Step one is we sat down and a let's get real clarity on our mission. 'cause I think when most people face with the same day to make the same decision so we spent an enormous amount of time for those first four or five months to saying, Hey, what is it the mission that we are collectively going to pursue together and let's be clear on that in unless just execute. So I think that was a huge part of it was sort of just real. Clarity of mission we use that phraseology that accompanies nothing more than a group of people aligned around common idea. I'll see we're not the originators of that term, but I think we embrace it. So we needed to be clear on what that idea was number one and number two what the principles of how we would act would be I. Think once we got clarity on those things not surprisingly there's been not a lot of debate ever since absolutely nothing not kind of alignment fronts Kia. Saying Times of your leadership leadership chain goals in terms of the styles, how senior leadership evolve and develop over loss for years know I think we are who we are, and so I don't think the leadership style changes over scale we sort of we are who we are. I think we project to clear north and we're very authentic with respect to how we're going after it I. Think it's more that the job changes and I think there's a point at which early on you're doing all the roles and you have your hands on all the levers, I'm the one in the financial plan I'm making sure the support tickets close I'm involved in the roadmap and I think. That transition goes from being very involved to being much more directive overtime and I think that's something that happens. Naturally it is very obvious that your style ends up being obviously much less hands on and much more about reinforcing the clarity of mission, both of the mission of the company and the behavior that we're going to all collectively exhibit towards the retirement of that mission. So that's the transition it's or more from the hands on hands off, which is not surprising, but obviously, you have to have the right people to be able to hand off the pieces to. So there's a very logical transition that happens authentically it doesn't change the fact I spent some time at Microsoft and They're really attention around communication which I think about a lot is she do this exercise to understand what your core values are because you don't realize that when you communicate you deliberately or not you have certain things that are authentically you care about Oprah Winfrey she has like five or six things you talk about consistently, and so a lot of the key is really understanding who you are, what's important to you. For things like humility and competitiveness intellectual rigor at these things tend to be your communication choose and towards the leadership style. That's what you end up leaning on because it's authentically who you are, and I think understanding who you are allows you to communicate more quickly has people react to you in an authentic way because it's very consistent but the tactics of what you do obviously change over the course of their company. Sorry. I'm Tunechi tape. If you all hear yours alita. By like leadership growth and development years, you want to scale themselves skills. That first time CEO is if you want, you does that mean you can't scale as a leader how do you think? So help me out here I. Think there are stills attributes I think is how to think about I think there are skills that can be learned for how you better leader, how to better marketer. These are skills. Attributes are more natural to you and sort of inform how you express those skills. That makes sense. For example, someone like Armen. WHO's one of the cofounders credibly talented guy when you meet meaning bit what really strikes here is the humidity of the guy as one of the smartest people I've ever met sort of incredibly humble when he's a leader that's just naturally how he? Projects. Himself and I think that's more. What I mean is there are learned skills around leadership, but the machinery you have to work with is relatively innate and I think the leadership challenges. How do you understand who you are understand what those skills are and understand where those maybe pros and cons so that you can manage them better as your shadow gets larger and larger. Sorry I am. Dean Hey, but I am interested see just one game like a process of self discovery on the type of leader that they are in terms of discovering these entrepreneurs jennings just inherently obvious. How do you think about that? When advising youngest as who kind of navigating who they are as people under the leaders? Guess this is a fascinating to me and I think this is where a lot. Of Big companies really have an advantage because this notion of leadership development something that becomes investment pretty deeply right. There are programs at this big companies where they do nothing but this in preparation for giving those leaders, the rains to parts of the organization over time, and then you have the startup world where people get thrown right into that job and day one so they have necessarily had. The opportunity to do the self reflection to say, okay, let me think about the core foundations of leadership. It's about communication. It's about establishing a shared vision. It's about letting people accountable at the tactical level, but it's much more these bigger picture things and yes I think you have to at some point self inventory of okay. Let me think about how I think about the world. What are. The core things that I care about and just know that deliberately or not. You're expressing those things when you communicate and you have to have that self knowledge of what those things are so that you can then develop the skills more tactically know that they're being expressed at this point of view and the challenge is that early authentic way so I can exercise those skills in a way. That is true to my view of the world. I totally agree with that in terms of expressing the minimum wage, his treats year questions here will say like you know you mentioned you marks, you mentioned the larger companies at and how they invested in ship development in terms of life lessons from Microsoft in your time within the larger companies now and thinking about scale and scale efficiently. Sorry. Question but I'm intrigued Roulston is there a repeatable playbook to scaling companies teams? They're definitely repeatable elements to it. I think the beauty of bigger companies. So just a snapshot I spent about five years of Microsoft and ultimately have responsibility for about a five hundred dollar portfolio of theirs, which was relatively crossing six different products and three different segments are relatively pretty complex and what you see is what the world looks like. It's scale This is what it's GonNa look like it scale different segments I've different levers in each segment. Got It. So conceptual. We got the lightbulb it's like scale, and then the last you companies have done from essentially zero through larger scale and obviously those lessons don't apply to your company that says zero. What we learn over time is great. If you know what it looks like at the end got bookmark that but then companies go through phases and I worked for Robert Gets really really good at this. He was a CEO of Gordon works among other things we think of like zero to ten millions of phase ten to thirty, thirty to fifty, th phase fifty to one. Hundred one, hundred to two fifty as a phase et Cetera, and these are very distinct phases and their face shifts and I'm applying a revenue number to them but that's just in the world that I come from. That's probably what it's looked like the last three times probably equates more like finding market. So I think the CEO's job is to anticipate the phases because everybody's role changes almost overnight at these phases and clear really simple example. Hey, you're the marketing person for a company that's going from zero to ten million. Great go from zero product. Marketing person is kind of the core nervous system. The sales people say, Hey, what do I say next next and it's sort of fed out to them all the sudden you got to ten million well, now, you just have to many reps and there's not enough hours in the day for that product marketing person to do the job. The same way what they have to do is sort of step back and create a content consumption mechanism that aligns to the sales cycle. So those reps can all be successful and you're like Oh God I, have to. How I do my job at each of these different phases because they were just face ships that happened. So the job then of the co- and I think rob did a phenomenal job we tried to do here is how do I make it so that organization doesn't feel those phase shifts and don't trip I think yes it is reputable in a sense in that you have to keep reinventing reinventing reinventing, which is why people that tend to do well in the startup. Environment tend to be systems thinkers because their job is not a skills based thing. It's about the ability to decompose the system for the next phase of the next phase when experts. So yes eventually you get to larger scale, you know what it looks like but you have acutely aware of the phase shifts and you have to that marketing example is gets rewritten every function of the company and you have to keep forcing ports enforceme-enforcing. So that's my job is to the. Make organizational adjustments to force people to go over those boundaries without noticing I mean, no pressure I. Do you have your say in terms of these faces and I love that in terms of back could obstruct systems thinking, why would you put yourself out now that in terms of the FAA's and I guess what are the challenges that you think you will encounter this phase and how do you think about tackling them? So our problems unique because we have deliberately critical products. So we're about a thousand people today we have four products with very clear product market fit that's unusual and these. Are Not a different module of the same thing though these are different products like provisioning product. One's a security product that CETERA. So our problems are unique. So what matters most to make these companies go is the feedback loop between product marketing, product management, and engineering creating that feedback loop for great four different products, an org structure where I empower those feedback loops to get engrained inside each of the different products that I have. So we actually deliberately federated the company out in a previous face to say now have a trio probably marketing engineering product management leader of every product group that is. We essentially a four product groups. So that's an example of like we didn't do that until we got to a certain phase because all of a sudden, the phase shift implies I can no longer be involved in every product decision because I'm just too far removed too big. So you have to federate decision making down and create these force feedback loop so that those people did upscale to be able to make the decisions that I would have otherwise made by being in those seasons. That's an example think that's one of the challenges that you have when you start to scale a multi. Product companies finding business leaders knew how to make the market function for each the different functions, and that's something that we coach. So that's the product side on the field side. This happened to us about a year ago we ought to just commit to segmentation. So now we have four segments we have a global segment enterprise enterprise to and a commercial segment. We've named account covered inside of that, and now we have an assigned a leader for each one of the things. Again, it's about feedback loops I WANNA hold one person accountable now for the entire global segment entire segment of the decomposition. Of the company sort of what I mean, and you can play that across customer success and Support Cross Product Management of falls that same pattern of like just a scale number at which you just have to decompose things into slightly different systems and that's the product and the markets on this side. Loved one inside the accountability. Alleman and my question is, how do you create a effective mechanism accounts policy that is ambitious and high reaching but then also naught disincentivising or discouraging if it's not head, how do you think balance between aggressive but not discouraging if it's Well I think unfortunately in the sales organization, it is what it is. I've set the revenue number in the early stage. Companies. And like yes, it's not fair but it is what it is. Though sales teams are on revenue number and sometimes works well and we pay them. A lot of money sometimes doesn't, and that's the way it works. So I think on the field side, it takes care of itself. Now, you have to create COMP plans for. That keeps them appropriately motivated, but we reset those every six months so we can't get that far off. So on the field started takes care of itself on the other side of the business like the further away you get from feel the harder it gets so. We actually breakdown our revenue targets byproduct, and so it is a notional target. Their compensation is tied to it in the organizations, but it's a notional target that target and expect like I run a monthly business with everyone of our business group lead. So we're having a conversation every month and they're me not be tied to, but they know when they're underperforming. And fundamentally people are competitive. If they want to build things of value, they want the work that they're doing to render revenue because that's the attestation that value has been created. So we don't need a credit artificial target for they are pulling as hard as they can for revenue, and that's a cultural thing. We don't have to force it because what we have. Deliberately done is created a pretty competitive culture, not internally competitive externally competitive. We do this because revenue shows you progress and it shows you value creation and that's what we get up every day to pursue. So while on the outside and may not look that way that's archer north is revenue and that's what we look at our scorecard ultimately. So we don't struggle. With truthfully because we wake up every day culturally in pursuit of making their customers successful, which renders into renewals and expansions, and that's where faction from a company. That's what we celebrate not about selling products. The renewal is where we make our money and they're what we live for, and I think that's a gearing of an organization culturally tightly agreed with you that. Quite, a few times multi-product Taliban and as you said, it's very unique in the development the of life stage company. It was dumb my question two-night listening. It's one. This is how do you think about aggressively pursuing a second product and when the right time Steve bodies versus go slow to go fast and be very disciplined around as? Your current products is about the right time to add that second third next provide therapist two broad buckets we've done this lives at traditional companies, and then we've done it in open source and I think split the to across separately think traditionally, the right model is to focus on one product. Yet repeatability have that to create a distribution channel and then you start looking at the adjacency to distribution channels like what other products. Distribution Channel to broaden my addressable market and I do that probably not until you know maybe you're at one hundred air I don't know what the number is. But like at some point you need to get repeatability the math of it is just too expensive like these things are in conflict multi-product versus efficiency are in conflict and they're in conflict in the field organization because you can't have a field organization that you're telling to do too many things because nobody. makes any money an expert what you're doing. So generally speaking I would say focus on one product until you get repeatability until you got a distribution channel established I e sales route to market that you can drop other things into. We did that for example, in the interest of the became pivotal right required some data assets we basically inventory and we sort of routes to market what other things can we add you can accompany pretty quickly that way on the. Other side of the fence is what we did, which is through open source and it is only achievable in open source because of the development leverage, you got an open source. So armee Mitchell had this view from the get go that to solve the problems of application delivery onto cloud you actually need it all these products. We actually have five six if you include vagrant which sort of disconnected, but there are five core products you require and they knew that. Out of the gate it's like I wish I could solve it in less but we use the UNIX philosophy one thing that doesn't one product one thing. So they actually knew that they wanted five. So they created all five out of the gate. Now the always in that works because you can let them run an open source I think open source enables this sort of notion of having people contribute we have thirteen or fourteen hundred contributors to tear form on. To build a business around tariff on would have required another thirteen hundred people in our after that was not going to happen. So I think we did it in open source because open source gives you this tremendous leverage and then we said, okay, Great. Let's let those run. That's centralization happen in open source, and then we'll commercial orientation commercial route to market. We can drop these products into. So what became a giant headwind initially becomes a giant tailwind wants these products mature I think the other thing that we? Have going for us is that are buying center is generally the same for all of our products. It's People's cloud programs, I. think that's the other thing you really have to consider does your distribution channels support multiple things going into? It does if it's a common buying center. So hopefully that gives us now I totally agree and terms that kind of single buying center to ask discuss the team earlier, and it was something that came up with the investors we mentioned before and they mentioned how largely as spin. Remote to a large extent for a while. So I want to ask you in terms of Lassen 's what are some core earnings fundamentally taste to mate remote work. So effectively and how you've approached it now go back to where I started, which is a group of people aligned around. The idea is where it starts there has to be this constant reinforcement an understanding of two ideas. One is the mission and number two are the principles with which pursue that mission if you go to our website we are. Very explicit about the things that we care about in terms of our principles, and that behavior is a lot harder to model when people are remote. So you have to keep reinforcing US number one is that clarity number to sort of you get nothing for free when you're remote and so you have to create rituals and rhythms which deliberately create what it is you might otherwise get for free. For example, we run a weekly all hands for thousand people every week this is a touchtone touch point were joking earlier. One of the presented this morning with the marketing team, they did entire presentation, two thousand people today to the lyrics of Hamilton just for fun. So they in their whole presentation, and then actually that people sing some songs like it's that kind of stuff, reinforce his culture, reinforce his creation of empathy for each other and reinforces the mission rafter. So like they're. These rhythms and rituals which are different. You think about I also send out a weekly email to the entire company just underscoring the mission for what we're doing is very tactical stuff like our core product teams live in the same time zones. So as big as the company is people working on vault, generally live in clutch with this in the same time. Former. General in the cluster. So those are some of it. Important is the times a lot because he's one of my people are different vs how do you think about that crucial element of light times and imports? We think it's really important. There are some exceptions to and again I would broadly categorize there's the product side and go to market side product development in the world offer is essentially a synchronous exercise where we've gotten accustomed using to have an asynchronous dialogue. So it actually works a little bit better in multiple time zones the go to market Side, the feedback groups are just much much much faster because the market moves faster than I can deliver products. So I think it matters more on the go to market side of that on the product side and we've always had pretty much all of our go to market people in the same location about same time zone but the products separated I go back to the feedback loops you have to be really really delivered about the feedback loop. So it's like this notion of these truths how do we force the feedback loops from customer support into that trio? From ESI and sailed into that trio, you have to be really thoughtful about the feedback loop says while you're totally with the intent of the feedback labs and really interesting times for an function levels. Do you WANNA dive into my favorite day, which is a quickfire rounds is as short statement, and then you hit me with your immediate. How does that sound? All right. Okay. So tell me a favorite book why must be reading I? Really liked the idea of play bigger I'm sure other people have talked about it. You don't have to read the whole book, but the core notion is the world's going, and so it's insanely easy for me to figure out who the predominant player. In, any category is 'cause I google. Search. I, WANNA buy an electric car I can tell you within thirty seconds through the leading vendors are as an example and that didn't happen previously. So it actually exposes what we've done. The last couple of companies is you have to own the category you have to create the category because all the digital signals accrue to you. Eventually, if you create the category, the category independent them go to the Cata recreate or so you best be created categories. Change Valley tax stay days I'm there lots things around diversity of it is certainly one that could use a lot of work but also take another one which I think people move around way too much. I think people coming out of college and early in their career, go to a company for a couple years ago. Great I. Got this on my resume that company and they're missing the point. You're not getting the value. You think you are because you're not really learning the skills from. The People at that company and number two. You Not really building the network that it's going to be durable for you and I think both of those things it sacrificed in pursuit of the next shiny thing people have to recognize long what we should be focused on it skills acquisition so that we know how to do this repeatedly not just trying to get good companies on Redmond, and that'll buddy told me Ju- wife is a full vc what are the partisan God's wife is the to Way More knowledgeable than you think I think it's the. On, so going to be careful a share with her, it's helpful to have somebody to talk about the stuff I think being CEO of a company is very solitary shoot in a way and I think that's enormously helpful. A huge pros you know she would call it a con. Days she gets to be my sounding board for a lot of things, and I think if I could make it separate point because I think founders going down the scaling company I think just understand how hard this gets like for US I. Think it was sort of the point between thirty and one hundred million or whatever it was where it's like they're just are not enough. People cannot get enough people in the company. Things are not quite ready to be, and you are carrying the whole thing on your back and I think that is maybe just comforting. People know that there is a face like that but it does pass. and. I think having someone in my house that understand unit certainly this to show past totally laws tell me if you're a cocktail, what would you be I would be a beer Canadian beer. I. Love The Final One nice lobbyist view the hash equal pay not you for me. I think we've been really clear about what it is. We're pursuing we think we have the opportunity to build next large infrastructure company in the market wants us to play that role. You can feel it. The market wants you to play this role of enabling consistency, op security and networking and the cloudier. So that's the mission we set out to pursue. I think we have been unwavering in that mission. I, think we've fundraiser pursue that mission to send a signal to. Our customers that we are safe long-term infrastructure partner and that's what we're going to pursue. I think there's a peculiar orientation to people that like this stuff. We think it's cool. Credit card process went through our stuff or that cable set top box doesn't turn all the data. That's what we liked to do. It's a very much a behind the scenes. We know what the stuff does. Other people don't need to know we get our satisfaction from that. We like the role that we play. That's what Hash is going to pursue. That's fun for people like myself. Got To do is to see that Roy get played for the biggest companies in the world and to know that we are making it possible as we're gonNA, continue to do is just interesting to us as I said at the beginning ahead seventy get things I felt like I need you coming won't say thank you so much for joining. Me has been a lot of phone now. Thanks for having me. I. Have to say I did so enjoy that discussion with David and such exciting times FASCIA. Cope if you'd like to see more from us behind the scenes you count on Instagram at age stubbings nineteen ninety-six bs I always loved see that. But before we leave each day, let me state the obvious video consumption has skyrocketed over the last six months more than ever. Developers need to be able to quickly build raw solid video into their applications and Marxism. API first platform that means building online video experiences. Easy. Stripe does to payments mazdas for video Max handled, storage, encoding, and delivery. So you'll development team can focus on. Building products live streaming is just as easy and muscle scale with you. 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Australian Survivor All Stars | Nick Iadanza Deep Dive
"Uh-huh ONLY ONE MILLION POUNDS CHICAGO CYBER. Hello everyone and welcome to arch. Ap's coverage Australian. Survivor I'm your host. Shannon Gus here with another deep diet four all stars getting it all out. We were done four and a half hours a day. We're going to get so many insights into the season. We're going to everything that happened. I think and for this deep dive. It's one I'm so excited about one that I have dreamed of doing for many many months when there's been in the works. I think before the season even started fuel because it is the OJ snake the og node ause and RJB's very own. Nick Nick. Welcome back to your podcast. That facilitating for you. Sean thank you so much for having me. This is so cool. Yeah doing a deep dive on your all season. This is crazy. It's unreal. Had this happen. What is left. Where are we Homar who you get here? But whoever we are this is so strange and sorry fan like just costume one back to when we first started doing this. All those moons ago. If I had said this I wouldn't have believed that. Why would have believed you were on all stars and doing a deep dive about your game? Wouldn't believe that I interview Bastos surprising you going back out there. They being all stuff like that could have been expected. But the fact that like your old intern is the one now doing this guy that that's what's crazy. There are so many times out there on the island and I was like. Oh I've got to remember that could tell Shannon afterwards in that top. That makes me so happy like to tell you about it from my perspective. When you were out there when this season was being filmed it was like so warriors view. Once-daily constantly worries you and like Pedo Lawson me because I I walk around the hassle and I'm always like Hey Siri play podcast like that's what I say to my for. When you were gone it was just like. Hey Siri. What's the weather in Fiji? Like four times. A day actually just activated Siri. No No. It's Fine Da. It and it would be rating and I would be like. Oh my God who've Knicks. Okay like that was what was to me for two months and one of the time you were home asking Siri were. The weather is in Fiji. Alleges Chilin weather in Adelaide once all Shannon Life? Thank you so much love. We'll get into all. Obviously I dislike the whole process of being out there and like you know. Obviously what was happening when I came back? But there's just so much stuff to get to what I love about our HP community. Is that like this? Is like a group of people who just like. We love the game. Love the insights. We have the shared language. This shed backstory shed knowledge. And it's so cool to have been a part of the on the podcast side but also part of it on the playside and now is the like. There's so much cool stuff to discuss. An I want you guys to get all the insights that I would have wanted to get not about like the game like obviously we can go through and we're going to go through the game. Like what was I thinking here? Or what was my thoughts on this? And this and that stuff's coming but what I love and what I feel love the RH EP community is GonNa love is like just stuff about like before you go place lava because like when I was thrust into at the first time there was this it was just this magical world of like holy crap. What am I doing hell am? I thinking how. What's the thought process? What's the timeline? What do I pack and like I can do that like I can give everyone that information like? That's why I think this podcast is going to be so fun because I hope that everyone takes something from it whether it's inside out the season but just inside about maybe the way I think but most importantly like inside about how the game is constructed in terms of the process. I'm so fascinated by the process. It's like I'll give you an insight like so. I love the Rue House. That's like my life. You'll keep playing like you know this. I've spoken to bad this many times like yours. You just love it. Yeah that's true so it's just a pleasure really I love when they fighting. And then let the camera moves and you see the producers and you see the cameras and like you get that kind of like look behind the curtain and it's like. Oh Damn I love this like I don't know if that's just me but like that's so cool so well. I'm not going to be spilling production secrets or anything like that. I'm just going to be talking about from like plays perspective not just the TV perspective. Which I think hopefully is interesting to something. Yeah I mean I think that when you first went and played you like represented the super fans. I know that when I watched you I was one of us like you know like you were off for me at least and I think a lodge subsection of the community and then to go back and like really represent the community like to have been are. Hp's who've been on the part of you know hosting the podcast of several seasons. Like I think the community did look at your life that and I think anyone's GonNa Really Give us the Gospel and the t you so you have to do it to this. Podcast is all those is for the IRA chippy. Community like this. It's the kind of like a bit of a thank. You almost just like come along for the journey. Do you know what what I loved about your podcast with died like you were brilliant in that. He was brilliant and he always is brilliant. Is that like Dave gives the Real T. He's not afraid to say when he did things pulley which was very rarely. That'll pop up a lot more often in my mind like he's not afraid to say when things went poorly and that's why you trust him when he says things that went well and. I hope to do that as well. They're like if I'm like praising something that I like because like I've truly believe it was a good thing and I will tell you when I think I stuffed up so I hope this kind of fits in with that vein for everyone and like I know. I've given lots of Instagram and twitter kid bids along the way and a lot of people. No this is ruining the season like don't give the kind of life that tidbits the tidbits are hp one. It's not full at the general public. I'll have fans a hope. You guys enjoyed those and dived. Like I remember speaking today at one point during the season he was saying no. I'm not going to go on twitter and like you know. Correct the edits or anything like that. It's like yeah because everything really well to the game and the ETA one like like you have no reason to comply but I guess just a bit of a disclaimer. I'm so grateful for this opportunity. Shannon Greg Foot for. I'm so grateful for my time on the show. And for all the producers and everything. I just can't wait to discuss. It'll yeah I mean I definitely think that before you went out when you told me you were going out. I was like even if you first booth. We'll do the deep dive we would talk about all two or three days that you had on the I. How high was. I knew that I was like we'll talk about all two days. You're on yeah. Thanks for the vote of confidence. Yeah so I mean you just you just made it in some how you got onto onto our to do a deep dive like congratulations. You have qualified for this amazing on a. Yeah we definitely WANNA get like all the Intel and there's obviously as you said some stuff that we talk about on social media. We're going to put it all into one place and talk about a comprehensively so I wanna ask you know I. I didn't think you'd have go back as time goes a lot of like. Oh Knicks back on doesn't WanNa Shannon's doing the podcast and I was like no Nicholas gave me the like. You really was done like I think what you said to me who was like that. You know what you said different else that you wanted to put the live kind of behind you focus on your life. I think I read that status out to you and you told me you were going on and lasted asked about how we ended up here. So maybe explain that. Yeah that's A. That's a really good question just like after I played the first time I had such a good experience like I feel like I was so lucky. I was so lucky to get on but I was so lucky with like how the chips fell for me like I made it through. I was voted out in day twelve. I came back. I like. I've found idol like I scraped into the DEMERGE ELEC and then I scraped into the jury and I had this fantastic experience. Felt like it would have been a disservice for me to hear the rest of my life and be like want to do it again. I deserve to do it again. It's like I never thought I deserved. I never thought I was worthy of. I just thought that I've had that experience and I put it to bed now and I'm very happy with that and obviously there was talk about like future all stars like I I to be honest now like I was actually told by the executive producer who came to jury Villa Day of Fun Tribal Council and we were talking through my question to in Christie and he was actually saying. Your question is far too long. You'll never remember you. Just watch anybody and the four output cosmic fan and then he basically told me off being a little bit naughty in. Villa and said to me that if you don't pull your head in you're going to get a black mark against your name and your someone who we want to come back full stars one day and I was like this is just like one of those things. They say to keep kids in line. And that kind of idea kept popping up again and again over the years for through various official sources and and it kind of Ben started to think holy crap. This actually happened. And I'm I want it to happen. I was honest about that. I I felt like to go back and take his second by the APP. Who Like it's not gonNa work out well for me? I have to give a reputation. I had a really good time the second time. I've had the podcast since then. I just was really hesitant. Ever do a possible to me. Giving up the puck cost to you and that was not because I was planning to come back one day. That was because I was ready to put Sevada behind. The I'd had such an amazing two years with I have and you knew it was being left to someone lack you so happy to move on. Shannon do a great job. I'll be out of popping every once in a while and have fun with it but I'm done and then I go and then you go about getting the cold. There's a quick story about that which I may have already said. I think I've said in some interviews of them Cole. At the very beginning of May last year so we are clocking on like over eleven months now of since this journey started and I am ready to put it to bed but I get the coal. It was Friday afternoon drinks at were. Maybe usually there's a lot of people you sound like four or five people. One of them was the headmaster and I was sitting and I saw my phone pop. A number from Fiji and I had actually known just because you know staying in the community and in the loop that they were actually beginning to film season for that day like that was Diwan Filming Season. For and I thought why the Hell Am. I getting a phone call from Fiji like I had no intention to think. I had no reason to think that it was anything about all stars and I was like what the hell is this and I answered it and it was the executive producer and she was just kind of like waxing lyrical. Just Chatting House Paloma Law and I was like. Oh my God I get it. They want me to come and be the Cochran. Debbie feely CAULKER. Yeah I was like sure. Why else would they be calling? The season's already underway like like we don't reading just to chat and kind of like check in which she had done a couple of times across the over the years because she's got bigger fish to fry the moment in a check in with me so. I thought maybe they want me to come in and film so I was like. Oh this is seek lie. Call get to go to Fiji for two days. And then she dropped the ball and said doing all stars and I was Lord I like ran out into the middle of the front oval of my school so no one could he and I just was like completely blown away and first of all to get the coal second of all that the call was coming at that time and everything in my life had changed. I had just had a baby. She was full months old at five months old at that point and we had just begun renovating a house. A house had been completely gutted like we were living in like two rooms of our home. Everything was completely ossoff backwards at home and I was just like I don't. I don't WanNa do this. And if you had told twelve year. Old Nick Yeah. He would be saying no to all stars. I wouldn't believe you so. I basically said look audited. I can do this. I don't know if I'm interested the first question I actually did ask was well hold on a second. Is it heroes villains? Because that's something I'd heard from Channel Ten over the years that I wanna get to do here as villains and she said No. It's not here as villains. It's just regular all stars and I said well I'm even less interested now and she said that to go speak to Christine and think about it. But I'm not taking no for an answer and Kinda hung up and I got in my car. I left wet drinks and I drove home. Came and just sat down in the dock in my laundry and literally just like was shaking like. Oh my God what am I going to do? And when Christine won't in with my mother-in-law and Paloma she looked at me and she's like what's happened and I was just burst out crying and I have to go places again. It was so weird it was so we'd told me that that was the reaction that I was going to give. I would never have believed you. I get it I think that to try and get your mindset. It's like you don't WanNa play. Survival lost year. You just had a baby. That's a lot of the coffee just made that effort to again. Get kind of out of that phase of your life but once it was happening. You couldn't not do it. You probably would have just preferred. They didn't do holes. You have a one thing. We're doing it like. How could you not be part of it? I know and that's like it's so funny because like my wife who has been through life so much to do with like she's over surviving Asian like you know Christine like cheese so a patient right and and the literally the first thing I was in tears and the first thing she said was. Oh that's amazing. Like of course you have to do like didn't miss a beat like didn't like wasn't lying on. God what are we going to do at the House? And she just said. I've got this on lock. I will take over project managing the booed like I will look off to pull them at. My mother-in-law was there at the time and she said we will help. Look like you. Just go and do this and it was just like the most amazing thing I had to think about it for a few days and didn't need to be twisted that hard but like once. I knew I had this and I will all in on like it was. It was a done deal Christine thing. She said if you're going to do this you can do sorry. Probably she said if you're going to do this you fucking do it properly like what she's like you go out there and you bring home. That taught like you win the money and you have no regrets and I was like all right. It's on let's do this and I rang back and said I'm insomnia. Many Times. I think on twitter the total queen all legitimate points to like really every busy point to Christine and every other all stars or survive applies partner like like it is very sucky too and this sounds conceited. Pleased to be in the shadow of someone who for that year? It is all about you like you catch up with family and friends and I want to ask about survivor. You walk down the street and People WanNA ask about saliva. People give their phone to your partner to take a photo with them like like it's it is unfortunately like it's just this part of it that you do have to do and Christine has never once complained Blah and every partner out there like you guys at the absolute saints letting people go out and play when you said Christine had one conditioner it was going to be like you can go out but after that one never told her ever again that will be focusing more after this deep dive you can maybe still a little bit more true to that you are going back you have a few months obviously before it was if it was may you've got like three or four months before you're going onto the island so we've we've seen a little bit of the prep. Let's let's talk through the prep side of this. It's funny because like we had actually started the year and said this is going to be easy year by easy. We'll just going to focus on two things and that's being an infant though we're going to focus on the baby we're going to focus on the house renovations so not easy at the beginning. You were saying this is going to be a year where we literally do extraneous things. We don't go out as much. We just focus on like building our home our family and then like a month and I'm like gotta go by and so it was all of a sudden. I basically like had two detached from reality to enter back into my prep. Because first time I went out there I was called by the producers like the most and some of the people who worked on American SPA one of the most prepared sophis-. There's if you've ever gone out there like I hit the preparation the first time so like it was like clockwork regimented regime and I just. It was just physically impossible to do that. This time with everything that was going on like we literally were living in two rooms of their house. It was the middle of winter and house had been the roof. Rift ripped off. We will like. We had no electricity. We had the torrential rain like pouring through a house like into allow electronics. Like it was the most unsafe environment to be living and like we had no room. We had this baby. Who didn't sleep was going? She had doubled costs on her legs because of issues with her feet. It was just like how am I going to carve out me time to do this? So we moved in with my inlaws simply because like the house was just impossible to live. We moved in with my in laws and that took a lot of the strain off and I was able to basically just create a regime that was to prepare empl people who listening you WanNa get on survivor who all people have known saliva or people who are going to be on. You have to set yourself. A realistic goal like it is not really stick in three or four months to watch every season of survivor. It is not realistic to work out five times a day. It is not realistic. To be like doing puzzles. Because you'd have to get access to them. You have to say so for realistic goal. So I set myself the goal of every day I needed to do to physical things and I needed to do two things to payment to play the game so physical things I mean like I needed to go to the gym and then either go for run or swim so alike. Do some sit ups or something like that so I at least two and and because I have a baby I needed to wake up at five o'clock in the morning to do and then the two things are needed to do every day to prepare. It could be as simple as doing research onto a player who I thought was going to be there or it would be doing some puzzle. Prep or it would be figuring out exactly what I'm going to wait for that while I'm on the island but like Bush that day. We'll talk about that so like I said myself a really really stick. Oh the other thing was that like I. I knew the first time I went out there. I watched so many of American seasons which did not help because I already. I already knew it. It was just more like a thing for me to fill the time this time. I had no time to plenty of time. That was already full so what I basically did was focus on the areas. The new would would demand the most of me and that was that assurance of become such a physical game so I got my training backing nick. Race who is the best in Adelaide highly recommend and we just worked on getting myself looking as big as possible because I knew of all the people who are out there all the guys that could possibly be out there. I would be the skinniest. I thought that if Jericho was out there he would be like the shortest. Like he's above dude and I was going to be the skinniest person who was out there so I don't know whether I achieved it or not but I definitely look the best I've ever looked in my life which is crazy and we did things like self defense another sound so we he teaches self defense class so we did like self defense in terms of like if someone is attacking you throw them off balance if the wrestling challenge is my God. That's a really key. Yes the physical thing for it will. It is because it's like Abbie. I'm never going to be out to beat Dave on that or gave gave him out of good run for his money. Like we kind of saw that but like. I was never going to beat him but like I needed to figure out some skills about kind of like balance and things like that so I kind of like really really focus on like how you can make your prep work as small as possible. The other thing I did was like I. I actually practiced treading water. I would've been good. It was literally one of the key things I did with swimming like. I practice treading water. It didn't get there to show their skills and no matter how much I did never would have been shunning so a highly recommend that you just have focused and like and really think about that but prepping offer is a pretty intense thing like. I'm very strong mentally and about three or four breakdowns during the entire process like literal breakdowns. What am I doing? I'm never going to do this again. Like I'm going to get crushed into cube and like and Christine would just be like come up and just like slap me like shut the hell up. Get back to your training or helped me with the baby. Like there's no. There's really no time for pity. Also like wallowing. She's like if you're GONNA get your ass handed you lucky you're going to get your sanity. Beloki so he to pick up the dumbbells or go feed already loves Christine. I'm just as upon. Costco is on my love. The huggers like you need her and your license. You're preferring to play. Some other. People should be paying Christine dicamba. Kim Yes yes. There's a lot of things already would like going out there about like you know what's going to happen and Blah Blah Blah and like. You can't really prepare for that stuff so a lot of the stuff that I did the first time because I played in season one where we didn't even know what the shirt look like like wouldn't even know who host was. We didn't know where it was going to be like what the beaches like. We had no idea this time. All that was out of the window didn't need to worry about that. Uh to worry about any of the strategy because it's like got it or I don't like season one told me that and it was just really about getting physical and preparing full social game. Yes yes some of the social prep so coming out of season one. I was surprised myself the players and the people at home with how good my physical game once I feel like even though like. They're a lot of stuff that didn't go off season. I still had my full on my finger on the pulse. About like what strategic moves to make the reason why my strategic moves didn't work in the first season is because I didn't have the social bonds and ice. I thought that the thing that I would have unlocked the most is the social game and some people who we think we live in a little echo chamber. We live in a community of friends. Family colleagues partners kids whatever it is people who like US people who value us and people kind of like with after talk personalities. Whether you're F- whatever you you'll your extra in your community and people like you for that so it's knocks you off your balance when you get there and people aren't lock you so I came out of season one going. There were lots of people who really really did like me but then was a lot of people who really really didn't lock me in the things that I was doing socially the way I spoke away I held myself. My sketchy is like literally the speed at which I talk like that you over like you know there are things that you don't realize until you actually play the first time and you're surrounded by strangers so it was all about a social game from this time and I spent hours and hours working on my social game and it sounds so odd to think about. How do you work on your social game? You either inherently have it will you done and I believe that the proof is in the pudding that coming out of all stars. I had a excellent social game and I can say that because there were many times where like. I didn't think messed up out the window. Now Yeah So. I don't want kids listening on so what I did was I gathered around. Not many people knew I was playing in terms of my family. My immediate family in two of my cousins. My cousins were four one day one not and I sat them down with Christine. And I said Okay I give you all to mission there dripping into me then I was like Oh this is good. I was like God. I give you permission. I want you tell me every single thing I have done like that is his Joel. I'm talking about. It could be like a story from years ago. It could be like the way I talk because I know I don't look people in the I want to talk to them. It's just this really weird habit that I've developed over these like literally anything and they will like. Oh yeah do and they proceeded to systematically break me down to like the core of my being and then I did it again the next night with my sisters and my dad and my brother in law and it was the most valuable thing I did. I think to prepare out there and it sounds intense and insane and unnecessary buff. I ask I suggest that if anyone's going out that you do it because I it tells you how to deal with criticism K B. It tells you what you need to work on and see. You need to be out to know that you don't need to defend everything that someone pads sign. Someone says about you like I'm so defensive like when someone says Taylor would be like. Yeah okay. So He's ABC wrong. But in this instance I was like okay. How can I do better? What can I say what is it? Why is it cringe when I do this? How is holding my body in this way? Negative to you and it was. It was fascinating. It was fascinated. Okay voice with very similar. When you say defensive I was like okay. We are but like. I don't know how to handle that. I would not be able to on from that. I would just be like that point of all in the fetal position. Because I'm a bull if you can't handle your best friends and your family like my cousin is like one of my like she's basically my sister if you can't handle people you know saying to you like what happens when you're out there. And Sam Webb and Kate and Li literally yelling at you across the Campfire. Like turn into a ball. Exactly this is what happened to me in season one like I needed to be prepared in case it happened again. I need to get to a point. Where like that definitely would not happen again and didn't like I went into one watching. We'll Lee at a fight with Sam at a fight with. I had a jail with sue. I fought with Craig like I literally had six or seven floods. And that's not. Even the thoughts had cheery villa with Sam like seminar with Kylie like like. I just was combative and it was so so I was such an idiot. Like what else? I doing? Social game at the end survivors not strategic. It is not a fish who can is a social game and that is why did not win season one because I was a complete mess socially so I came out in this time and I made friends with literally every single on my tribe. There is no like I did not come up onto. Dive rocked up on the beach on a whatever it was two thousand eighteen. Nineteen like my never once came up like legitimately. Everyone locked me. Everyone wanted to work in. The everyone was impressed with my social game. They wanted to be around me. That would gather around at night and we would tell stories like on the show and I was so proud of that I fucked up so many other things but like I will leave all saw with this proud I was about my social any comes down to that preparation that I did and it comes down to people like you shouldn't be honest. I told you it was probably like a few days or a week or so before I went out there. Yes and one of the biology for advice in one of the things you spoke about. Was you have to make people walk you? And you have to accept other people's differences and socially how to move forward of them. Yes I think that going back to hell with them. I was like we can be snotty. Maybe a little bit judgmental and my concern was like I knew. Go out there and be friends with the raw school type. People like a new. You'd be good with your people but I was like tell me right now. Ten things you like about like right now like she's out there like you have to bond with the Abbey's and the lady is like you have to go past the differences and make friends and like I think also being in the realm of the podcast you've podcast about these people especially fees in two and three. We've probably against knocked about these people. I was like you need to them as people who are going to be in your lifelong to one hundred percents of people who may meet low me. These are people who've weddings. Humana tend to you might meet their families like these people are going to be. Who totally if you play right? Your friends long-term so stop looking at them as like a competitive or like in a judge mental way and start looking at them as like it was social opportunity and I helped at all. I don't think I did but if I did. I feel like that was the best advice. One hundred percent and it really was like I remember when you said right. Now tell me ten things you lock about Lydia because like I was like one hundred second I don't like Lydia like as a as a saliva superfan or whatever it was but we say about ourselves about the top leader tops. I didn't enjoy watching linear and I had met Lee at the finale and she was actually quite nice and and I. I'm sure she's lovely but like I couldn't do that so I remember going home and researching like I watched a documentary. Read about her journey to get to the Olympics company are found out about her kids husband from Finland. I researched Finland like I know it sounds so funny to Finland I know it sounds psychotic but like it was part of like I need to be prepared to socially ingratiate myself people and it worked De Number. One person that I was the most Lord by out there was Lydia. My Love Leah like linear and I get along in credibly and why because I shifted my mindset about thinking. I wouldn't like her and she said the same thing to me. This really funny story where I think it was locked on dialect. Three Lydia and I had started to Bob and I said too. I said leader. I'm going to be one hundred percent honest job. You can be honest with me back. And she said Yeah. What's that I said? I thought I was going to hate you. Oh my God I thought I was going to hate you too and I was and it was just this perfect moment where we just bonded and like it paid off in dividends as we'll talk about so it's about changing your mindset and. I think I know that you said that. Said that about how he was having a really bad time. He changed his months. They've got no. You will fund the auto like it's really important are changed my mindset and I've left all-stars literally locking so if there's twenty three other players literally locking twenty two including Nick like pretty good pretty good. That's pretty common. Would you would snub Aka like that and Lynch and what's but what's the actual good indication of my social game is not how many people I liked that. Twenty-three people left the game liking me. There's your and that is the difference like even the one person on. We'll talk about them lighter because it's not a personal thing. It's a game thing that one person would never have known on a that I. I didn't like them. It's MILANA IF THAT'S PEOPLE. Allies realize being cagey there but like. I completely fun like the way she played. The game is kind of like annoyed me. Nothing personal so but she would never have nine. That I didn't like it from the fact that I voted for like seventeen million times so I left the game with everyone like at least like no one despise me and he's literally half the cost this Bosnian so I was proud to get on the exit interview and Abby An Lady Bird even Austin they just came out and said how much they had lives two U. Two of the people that I might have been a bit concerned about. Because it's so different to you. I was sitting there as I was printing plant watching season four and watching abby and going only if she's out there this is just never going to work like this. Never Work and yeah. I think that we get so invested. Because we're not waiting. You Watch people and you have an opinion of Elena show but when we're watching people especially when you're like podcasting about it and you're analyzing watching multiple times you told me about of ours you sit in those opinions of those people who've been married to them you know and it happens to me sometimes. I'm talking about someone told him that. Someone on a ten minute exit interview with them and I'm like I really enjoyed that like flow different or I meet them later and I'm like very different to who I thought they were which they are at TV watching them. And I think you have to embrace that like it's like okay like I had the wrong opinion of this really can like them and I think that like going out that was the attitude of also to be actively trying like that must have been a good thing for sure unlike unlike for example. And we'll talk about the players lighter but like some a lot John will. I thought slot chance John osas because he's like a big character and he was funny and then casuals lock him and and I just thought God like John John is going to be my Sam. Webb like he will be my Sandwich Goss breathing down on you he. He's the shadow that season and I didn't WanNa leave the guy with any of those kind of shutters and I hope that I didn't but but John was someone that like I got out there and I just like worked and I worked so hard to like socially ingratiate myself with social prep like you know. There's other things that you can do like you. You have to start a fire if you go out there and you don't know how to stop flying you like and the other thing that you should do people is that if you start a Fi- before you go out there take a photo of it with you. Starting it recorded so that if you're in the position you have perfect yourself and you could do improve to other people that you did actually purposely went out this. Vermont get photos of you. Doing that was not an issue. Very confident in my ability but like literally choosing the clothing store wrongly we. How did we get here? I know you have so many thoughts. Would you like to come clean now? What would you like to say? Look the Cardigan Cardigan was good. The scarf love that unloving pots of it. The shore. We've we've debated a long-term you couldn't hide anything in those tiny little shorts. They're very very short. I'm confused about the choices of shorts. I know that Annabelle has been on twitter. She wants to defend the shores preemptively. Like I'm here anti-short I'm just going to say it. Just say support of the shorts on one of the highlights of the season so the short my theory on the shorts is this the first time I went out there. I brought two pairs of underwear briefs Cotton briefs whatever book La Boxer briefings and they got so wet and I never dried because I was in Somalia and I thought and then what I ended up wearing in one the whole time were my like little spandex kind of swimming trunks that were never to be worn outside of a challenge but because they were the only thing that dried and everything else I brought did not try. I ended up wearing these little black pants things that looked so weird and as I lost weight and I lost about eight kilos the first on you could see things hanging out this asking and it became like a bit of a running joke so I thought okay this time. I need to make sure that I bring with me some rules. That could double as underwear so I can get them on. But I don't waste any of my items on actual underwear and these were shorts that actually had like underway built into them and I thought there is no way I will lose enough weight for anything. Come slotting fees and it's still did but the short shorts. I highly recommend it because you can swim in them. That can be undies. You can sneak them in on day one and no one knows that you're actually like getting an extra pair of shorts on and they look sexy. Af Agree to disagree on pop but I think that okay. That's sounds good but I think we know. Now ideally have them be longer than a coup advantage if you have on that we should be measuring a standard coup and measuring your shorts as a nation. They could just hide a standard advantage. Funny I look at like Henri shorts like he had way better coverage he had like actual long spandex. Things built into that. He wrestled everyone in that that challenge with an auto in his junk full out. And it's like man. What am I get those ones? Yeah even keep a scroll like tough in when I found Pandora's box we'll gop always used to talk on twitter about Henry. Short being so short and I was like that. He's seen Nick Lang he makes it look like Henry's wearing long pants modesty. Okay well anything else about the clothes from these other items. Yes so what you do on Day. One you get your you get your day one here and then you get you five. Autumn's that does not include your sneakers and water shoes so what people try and do you know if you're GONNA pay shrine Sevada like on day one. Maybe we're like other shoes so that you then have an extra pair of shoes and season four pair of Columbus which would like the short ones which was a bad idea because they but they will my pillow the whole time so you want to think about having an extra pair of shoes. Sorry thanks usually. A pillow super bleak. So they didn't smell. And you WanNa you WANNA have some sort of slip slip-on Zloty thing. I had a pair of black rubber berkinstocks which Janeane wear in season and all that so bought them online. I called the my jeans and I used to walk around like giving Harry. Ptsd so I would wear those. I would highly recommend that you think about how cold it's going to be whichever on those already but the listening for clothes these. You must think about where you're going to hide things so in that big cod again that I had the big fuzzy one that looked like it'll take print in the color actually had an invisible zip signing a my mom was addressed mica so I used to know what invisible zippers. We can't really see it. Except the tiny little tag thing and actually had a whole compartment built into that that I could hide things in the color of my jumper and in season one I had actually built a secret pocket into my shorts. As well for an auto. So you have to think about these things where you're going to hod stuff because the ruling bother is that if you hide your idols in nature or anything outside of your belongings and someone funds it. It's it's this now that confirmed David and I were talking about that the other night. So that's I mean that is not true for the US. That's shocking exactly so if you want someone to be able to not find not steal some stuff steal stuff you have to be hidden in your belongings and like while. They say you can't go through people's bags like you totally can in season. One plenty people went through Mon- I went through people's and this time I actually started the process of going through Dave's bag. Bud John go kind of busted busted but like someone came so I couldn't finish more on that story later. But you want to think about what you're going to hide this stuff because you you need to be collecting things along the way like I had a stash talking stash of stuff which will come into play later on but I had rope. I had twine. I had the thing that my body was wrapped up in on day. One that I stuffed down my pants I had the stuff stolen from the coffee reward. I had my Pandora's box actually came with like four pieces of paper. It was crazy so I had all of those papers I had the key from. Pandora's box you need to be out of this stuff somewhere so think about that is. That's very involved. I can you like kind of an inspector gadget just Jackie full of things that you can hear weapons. They came to a point where there was too much stuff so I had to actually go and let dig it and like and I had to dig deep. He's a funny story own. I had my extra vote I dug it all and put it because I didn't do anything on me at that point because I was pretty sure that people were going to go through my bag because it was like at a ten off depend- doors box so I dug a hole and buried everything in there but get much time so I just kind of like buried I wrapped up leaf and I've buried in the hole and then the not that I was that I ended up using the North Philly went home. I like the trouble. I run to the whole dig out. Pull it out and he literally disintegrated in my hands because he had gotten wet and the piece of paper like literally like fell pie in my hands and I was like. Oh my God inc that I lost Like just crumbled into nothing and pretty fitting probably fill. Basically was nothing anyway but in Season One Star. I remember the night that I played my auto in confessional when I was holding a model and I'll say this useless thing has caused so much trouble and as I did that. The rope snapped off and it broke in half and I was like. Oh my God. He's like don't worry it's too has pal. I was able to use that as president. Iran produces like the great another. Because I got I got another one to replace it with. Yes nine hundred all those things very important. Yeah Okay we'll all of this in terms of like who you thought would be out there. Who may be kind of like thinking you would wanna play with not WANNA play with us any thoughts. You had about the cost. Yeah definitely so what I did was because one of the benefits of their only being four seasons is that like you have a pretty small pool of people to choose from like you know. It's kind of like what the winners at war. Once they knew that it was win is okay like it could be any one of these you know forty or whatever it is people that are going to play and that means it's a pretty small pool. We had very similar in the fact that the poll was closed small so I created a book. He which I'd already put a little bit up on twitter and a few people have wanted. Some more pitches their stuff that I won't be sharing. But like actually made a chart where I put there was full columns and then three rows and full each column each column was a season and h Roy was definitely maybe no and then I went through. And I put down in each cullum who I thought would be there versus who I thought wouldn't and what I found was very easy to do. Was to guess who was going to be so in the men call him. I had Henry Rojas Lee Dave Myself Aka Benji in there as well and I had luke but with an asterisk on him and then I had maybe like season. Four person question mark because point season hadn't started so eight to season four slots and then all the way down in the know. Spa This is gonNA sound crew if anyone's listening who is on this list. I'm going to read it but like it's not because I don't think they deserve. This was the list that I thought the show would go to so. I didn't think that would ever ask Russell back. So he's only mentioned that to be implausibility country. Literally every single person is on this chart up on the beach at all size day one. You've fainted straight up. I would have been so excited. I would have been sto excited because although so that I had this message target. He walks in the biggest target. So people at figues for example who left on last season like he's in the North Pole? But what I found was really hard. What was this kind of like middle? Is maybe pile so I did it for men so this is a second charter. Had I had the maybe the men maybes and this is where I kind of concentrated a lot of my thought of like. Who would the show put on there so this is where I had people like? I had Dez on here. I had andy from season. Four Jericho was in this list. Sam Webb was another one matt. Taryn was another one like these are people who like I would one hundred percent watch each and every one of these people play survivor again. But I wasn't sure if they would want to do it. Or if the show I would ask them or if there were enough spots so then I wanna then did the women. And then I found the women a little bit harder to sorta simply because I feel like straddling still have does a very good job of characterizing men so much about the women. This is something that you have spoken about before but what I did was this basically helped me start to figure out in my head like. Is it going to be out there? Where's a safe space? Like what am I going to do? And and it was actually quite useful and then this is the really fun pot then had another page in the Journal. I'm going to sell such soccer. Do I sound like a soccer on you. So okay cool. Good good good moral psychosis. Yeah so then I had a page of leads and what I mean by leads is like this is like hints that I had gathered over the years like about people who wanted to play again or like things that I had heard like could see from people social media so for example I learnt that Mark and Sam from season to. We're going to film an ECHO. Tv Show in Fiji with Mark Burnett. So we're both off the list. And they were both to people who were in my maybe pile. Jericho put on his social media that he booked holiday to New Zealand in September. And I thought well hold on a second like that's Khanna. Lock Filming Tom. Jericho maybe like. Maybe he's being sneaky and he's thrown off the send because that's condescending jerk. I would do with a question. Now that what he was doing. I'm not sure. But that's what he put on that holiday short so then this is funny so Jackie Glazer who I loved one season three and who I would one hundred percent watch Jackie again and get a white shake of it. Then she did it with the trump. She was put in season three. She did a tweet about someone. Com was. But I literally read Jackie's tweet wouldn't be tweet of someone who knows. All Stars is happening so I think she was like lampooning. Someone from season full like a big player. Like I don't think you would actually. I'm not beginning at wrong. Jackie listening I'm sorry about definitely tweeted. Something that made me go okay. So Jacki doesn't know it's happening so that kind of crossed hair off. My may be list. Which because she was in there and it was just like I just kind of like started like gathering information in a way that was like calming for me and another sounds like psychotic but it actually was a wife of me to kind of feel like I was making four momentum in a way that make sense yes I mean I get it. I think David Ryan has spoken about. How like I guess like someone like you feel like you need to be doing something needs to Europe. Prepare your teacher like we get like with a with a truth in school like I understand that you wanna be doing something. And he's spoken about how even just having like those puzzle to get your mind is occupied and you feel like you're helping dig for me and probably you. It's highly you feel like you don't have control and this kind of thing gives you more control and then you feel better about it. So there's A. There's a perfect little anecdote for so I'll skip forward 'til I when I was in lockdown like the day before the game started and at this point in my head I had kind of just kind of committed to like a rough cast of like thirty. You will so people that I could potentially be out there so I wrote each person's name on like a little car that little index card and then I kind of like separated by gender and Shuffled Them. Apo- and then I kind of like randomly pulled out like five other guys and then six women and then I kind of liked created like this rough imaginary tribe and then I would sit there in lockdown because there's literally nothing to do for days on end you're trapped in these tiny little room and didn't leave for two days basically because all the days doing stuff but two days I was literally just in my room and I would go all right. If I'm in this tribe like who would island with who would be my first target. Who Do I think you would naturally breakdown and at one point the when I had my interview with one of the series producers. She came in and she said Oh. What's all this stuff I said I'm trying to do to occupy my time and I laid out all the cards and I kind of explained what I was doing and see this. See All this this is GonNa make you lose your mind nick. And she's like stop it immediately like you're going to fry your circuits and this is actually making me feel really calm like and I would sit there at night and I would like randomly draw like a random trove of twelve people and I would like and it made me feel super comfy. Like it was really good and like did any of that. Have any bearing on anything. Absolutely not did it mean that that time when a lot quicker absolutely so you have to do what's best for you and if you'll someone lex like mats and that tarrant from season one he literally did. No preparation didn't preparation the first time. And he made it to him and he's a good survival play that him like that. Wouldn't fit to me. I if I went out there and hadn't prepared I would feel like I had one mush. Oh Yeah I mean. It's not even about how to impact the season. I think it's more about that time before whether you're in lockdown on the months before like I totally get it for me when I called cost I write notes a new. It's a nurse and I don't even know if I need the notes but I knew that it makes me feel more confident going into the podcast. And that's what's important but I will say that when you told me you were going on. I remember that I was so anxious for you so overwhelmed and like highly strung about it. And you're like okay. This is good because you're reminding me about what I used to be like. And you're making me realize how far I've come so now I feel very calm. Your anxiety made me like. Oh because I think this is another problem I personally. I've realized how few contrarian like if the group is all thinking one way like it's just a stat naughty little kid in me that just wants to do the opposite and if someone else's freaking out it doesn't make me freak out it makes me go. I'm Shubert everyone being too. I'm like we should be to my. It's this weird part of my personnel. So that actually kind of helped. Yeah you you're a mess. But that's what's important. So that's good so in terms of of the pre-game that's something that people have kind of wanted to Scott. Do you WanNa comment on that. Look pre gaming. Is this kind of minefield that has like so many different interpretations of what it is and I feel like the. It's important to understand that when some people are mentioning saying pre gaming they have a different definition of to some people. Pre Gaming is seeing Dan planning out what we're going to do. This is GonNa Happen here. I'm with you to the end bottle to Blah Blah Blah to other people pre gaming is a lock on instagram or to other people. Pre Gaming is I've known ziggy for the last four years. And I'm going to continue talking to Ziggy as if I'm not going on all stars and the conversations that I have with the between now and the time that I leave. And hopefully she's leaving to is could be interpreted as just US chatting but it could also be so. There is a very wide continuum of what pretending is and I don't want to general statement but literally every single person you know. I don't I don't WanNa cost to today. But literally. Every single person fits on that continuum to some degree. Okay and I'm not going to get into any specifics because I don't want to tell anyone else's story for them but to say that people were not pre-game me would be ridiculous to say. That pre gaming helps would be ridiculous. Decide that pre gaming doesn't help would be ridiculous. Just lots of other is all situational and when you have a community of people that there's only been four seasons it's only been three years basically for us there will be people who are talking to each other and there's not much that you can do about it. You have to just kind of hope that what you do on the island is going to mitigate what people have done before the game starts as someone who has a very had a very sketchy son of the first time. Getting caught up in beginning was absolutely something I did not want to do. The I'll be honest. You find yourself getting caught up in it because nowadays pretending does not happen on the fine or in person. It's a lack on instagram. It's the response to story. It's a love that man from someone that you've never heard before heard from ever all of a sudden they're pumping into your DM's. Like so. When I say that you get caught up in it like that's what it's just unfortunately part of the game when it's not like you go into lockdown the moment you find out that you're playing and it's not like we're newbies so if someone slides into your DM's it's kind of. Like the I was I was operating on the process of do not ever make the call but take the coal remember when like Robin Steven. Talk about that back in the day. I don't think that applause because who toll telephone thing. I've spoken to anyone on the phone since the eighties. Gen-x way of regaining. This is like you know life the photo slide into the DMZ. Maybe like the new school way of doing it. It's like see who's following who online. That's the kind of stuff like So is this an example of pre gaming during season? Four airing mat rogers dressed up as John and didn't instagram post about and he all love love Mullet man whatever he he had like we on. He was wearing some food. Shorts and some plug INS and stuff and like is that pre gaming or is that not pre gaming because you might consider it pre gaming accept the fact that it's on the open is that is that considered so it's really odd continuum that everyone fits on and the other part of this that is could also be considered pre game. Is this idea of pre existing relationships Brooke was at my wedding. Brooke knows my dad. She knows my family. She's hung out with my cousins. I know her mother like I know her sister. Like is that pre gaming. We've been friends for threes now. I'm not saying that we were sitting there going. You know talking about you playing but like mowing you Sean Sean. And went on a trip with Leah to the Larry into trial of the week before Sevada Dada broken. Babia friends like is this pre gaming or is this just like relationships and you'd be silly to think that those pre existing relationships are not going to have an impact on the shaw. When you're out there yeah I was talking about this a bit on the Po podcast. This weekend in terms of wins at war. And how a potato with trans -vivor is like for me. I don't get why the standards so up in arms about this if they are because it's like there's probably two types of it it's like if it is a pre existing relationship like this person is a genuine person in your life. There's no way around that like that's just the thing that's true. It's not so you can just ignore when you get out there. It's going to be impactful. It could be good. It could be bad as David told me about it. Could you trust that person when you shouldn't it could be good because you get some help like you might never meet up with them like I said situational or something like a dam or conversations before and if it's like if those conversations on based on these long term relationships which as we said are going to be impactful or important in and of themselves then. I don't think they carry that much weight like as if an instagram. Dm matters more than two days on an island was excellent. So like it's either going to be very very very important in some capacity in either direction. But you can't control that or it's going to be irrelevant. It's one of the two extremes and it's like it's just part of the also game like it's not something that we can they can mitigate. It's not something that the show can can work around like. It's just something that the play is a best have to be super aware that I guess we'll talk about which relationship you kind of knew or didn't know about but you just have to hope it worked out for you and not not your opponents because it's crazy to think that it wouldn't be helpful and it's also crazy to think an instagram. Em before conversation before will matter more when you're on day twenty of an island unless you have been very very good friends with that person. Exactly and like I can't hide the fact that Bruckner flight together she was at my wedding. My wedding was in OK magazine. There's a giant photo that was out there. All the strategy of Paranoia hanging out at my wedding like that's out there like I can't change that story like now. Did I go onto my instagram? Go through and literally delete every photo about late below archive every photo about me with any other players absolutely. I didn't want to give anyone any new. But like he like I knew that Sean and linear our friends. Like that's just part of it like you just deal with. Ya just deal with it and the other thing is like an instagram. Dm from someone like that. She can be screen shot and let me tell you. I've got receipts twenty out of people who maybe doth protest too much that they were not pre-game so there are there is. There is a lot of wrong that can happen. If you just look at someone like Henry for example now this is not saying that I'm not climbing Henry pre-game I'm not all I'm saying is that I've know Henry. I've known him. For years. We live in Adelaide Adelaide small. That clearly was not pre-game alliance like I was wanted to get Henry out so badly. Lena had literally not spoken to each other. We saw each other. Scooby Doo wops in four years and it was very aussie exchanges and he was my close one of my closest allies and Henry. Is someone see all the time was someone who I was targeting from day to? So it means nothing. Yeah that's well. That's what I'm saying is like the chance of of a bonding experience like survivor to override. Those connection I think quite high. And if a CON override them or if it reinforces them like that speaks to how strong connection is and then it's not something that again this show can work around or that the play ground and it's just something we have to accept so whether you like. I don't know I don't know what they expect to play to do. Like conversations are going to obviously happen. Relationships have already be informed whether it's this season all winners at war. I really do feel like it again because everyone does have it to different extremes. Obviously because everyone is involved in it like. Is this going to be what it's going to be like I? I just don't think there's any way around it and I think that fans and definitely plays. We should stop judging Java for what happened and just accept that. It's a communal thing. And robot of IT and part of the game and just existed except travel council. Because it's it's data evitable audibles the next challenge coming up. So I think what's more important like and I would say like don't don't pre game like I do not think it's useful to knock regain cultivate. An image may be like you social media to cultivate an image of what you want people to think of you. So I went back and looked in my article about the Instagram's stories that I put up at the time like I put him up. Rarely oh maybe like one every couple of days. If I'm feeling like you know like something exciting's happening but then I'm like a week or so that putting anything I went back and looked at that period of time and it was definitely like less but I was only putting out of me with Paloma cool. Daddy I was doing I was. I was cultivating this image of goofy. Dad You know just like fun family like I was putting up stuff like family dinner so that like if people saw they would like on the island have a reference point to Tokyo and then like one of the things I thought was okay. People aren't going to think like I'm an Alpha male kind of thing so when I was like well I'm not all block you know. That's kind of what did me in the first time so I went when I was in Melbourne visiting my nephew I went out to the park with some foote's and I sat there and I like him. I like filled. I made sure I filmed. Miki thing like I seek. Absolute like full-on Torpedo. Got The goal. Like an I put that on instagram and I was like pack. Hanes with my nephew really. That was the one good. Kika got and my nephews. Likely please Shop Eric. Sort of these four. Oh don't you worry markets so don't worry about like pre gaming just cultivating image that you think is like what other people did any of that help but like again did it like it helped show all right. We'll go there did you have any M- Asia like in the positive around like hoax and goals but also like any major a negative pot concerns about people or just in general just for you as your experience cool so I had my goals with this so one. Small little petty goal was that I just wanted to survive a tribal council without getting vote. I went to early. Went to trauma counseling in my first season and I got voted. All of them voted out of two. Okay so it wasn't great Santa Cruz Underwood. Who is this a viable in it and I got twenty one votes. I've got the highest number of votes in the season only went to drive again. I just wanted to get through at least one so I guess part of that. It's evolving the I I guess but my I had. Obviously you're my man. Goal is to win right but I went out this statistically thinking like. I'm probably not GONNA win much. I just thought I'M NOT GONNA win. I'M GONNA give it a red hulk but I don't think I'm going to win because people who think they're gonNA win someone like Henry that that's what happens is exactly what happened to him. So my nine and my only goal that I was funneling all my energy into and it sounds like I've gone back in revised revisionist history this but I literally wrote this in my journal and I'll read it to be able to walk out of the game with a small fun. Alliance who are stuck with the majority of the game. That's it that was my go. Have a small fund socially built alliance of people that I was going to die with and it was gonna take me as far as I possibly could and I had a little rascals so outside of winning and that petty little one of not getting invited every travel council. That was my goal and I think I did it. That's great. Was there anything that you will like really worried about yourself. Well just sorry just to go back to that. There was a couple of other sub thing kind of things. My wife and I teased out of things like I literally did not care. If I didn't get an auto like is idle hunted this time. Maldon the first time but out of necessity I wasn't like I must get an auto I'd already proven myself in. Immunities Puzzles physical. Didn't care about all that one thing that I thought would be would be to get some sort of advantage because I'd done the auto thing and I wanted to get advantage but I wanted to make it to single digit placement. That was my goal because I can't eleventh last time and I wanted to get Latin on all sorry. Oh I didn't get that but the things that I was just the things that I was worried about. Yeah I was really really worried about a couple of things. I was worried about my perception of who I was because of the I saw this snake libel I was worried about the podcast and I was worried about my relationship with lay. Those were the three things that I was extremely worried about. And I would say that those three things to cop definitely the league thing and the podcasting to a majority of my mental anxieties before I went out there. The podcast thing was I was. I had interviewed many people who are on the cost interview. Tauzin Jackie AK Henry. Phoebe slick all the people from season one to WHO? I had interviewed them some accept late. I had that kind of like what worried me sorry. I hadn't interviewed everyone from season three but like I need to be that kind of worried me so I contacted rub and I asked him to suspend all my podcast that will up on the website and I go ahead and take the mow down all my deep dives temporarily so that if any other players tried to get that until they would know that it was there and be. They wouldn't get the information that I had and I actually went back and listened to some of them and I made notes. Actually how to create enough dossier on each player and like for example like the Michelle. I listened to my interview with Michelle and it really turned me off of wanting to work with show like really really turned me off and on native notes here about some of the things the things she said in the way she kinda played and and he just really. I'll go. I'll have to like sift through it now. But like she was very risky player. She was someone who was always willing to just kind of like go with the numbers. Sorry not go the numbers. She was someone who was not afraid to go with the numbers if it meant her surviving one more day she was very much a one more day person which did not sit well with me. I wanted people who were going to ride and die with me And Michelle was not that person she said things like she talked about how she would spread laws with people she would like make up stuff and she would go around and like just kind of like you just lie. Lie Lie. She talked about how it's eight will be eaten allegiance to anyone and I was just like yeah. These are all those platitudes that we will say. But like it really. It really stuck with me. She said I'll just go with the majority whenever I have to. She said if you put your hand up for the puzzle and you stuff it up. I'm sorry I'm throwing you under the bus. That is like no good for me so I feel like. I got a lot of information from the PODCASTS automatic. Coming on for deep end with someone and having that screaming future all-stars. It didn't screw Michelle extending. There's other circumstances which is the reason why I didn't WanNa work from show but it was definitely something that I kinda like us to kind of get my head around like who could potentially be out. There was one thing and do you know what Shannon literally never came up. It makes me so sad. Nick like trying to be one of the country right now with the Dave deep dive and like people talking about this Shannon when I say it never once in my heart. It was incredible so many people didn't even know I had to put a stop to okays seventy people didn't even know. I was because you at one point Harry mentioned and everyone said. Oh what's that and just kind of like a slunk into the shelter and pretended to be asleep. Like Sean never brought up that. We had done like a two hour. Deep dive about it. A game shawny never brought it up. Jackie had said that she'd never spoken to me before Tarzan thought he had never met spoken to me before. I'd interview these people. Okay so now. I'm getting into the me I haven't people's lives. It's not a lot which is so funny and like all that white and that burden on my shoulders just like disappeared. Now if Andy was out there like either Andy sees a one all season. Full Andy Different story like they want. Craig wasn't there like these are people who listen regularly and it made me feel so good in Brazil. So that was that was that have to worry about. Lack of clap can be of use to you. Clout survive applies net. Some of them. Listen but like just never connected the dots or I think maybe he just was fortuitous. That given the podcast up to you that there was like a gap that they did not know that. You gave the podcast. Me Into A voicemail. They didn't know what are shaped as in life for the previous season. I wasn't front of mind like season. Four have been during doing the office. Even throw away no way so like a lot of players that I played with also haven't really seen long like John had zero idea who any of us were. Okay John had no idea abby kind I think. She brushed up before she played. Mwana had no idea who I was like. And that's a funny story that we'll get to light like like there were people that just had zero and it was brilliant. Yeah okay well. That's not all talk audience. Okay we've got excited. And they would have known who you were and they would have been like love the podcast so we can all agree on that to go to a bit of a different place in terms of concerns. You were leaving an eight month old. Was it like what was that like? Yeah that was so difficult. Clients of as a parent is extremely extremely different. And I have to put my hands up and say that I was a complete asshole to Kylie in season. One Who had three children one of them was like five months old when she she left to go play a mother of three daughters and I was just like she would cry. Colleague get over and I was just like a prick face or to anyone but in my head I was like all right here. We go again about your kids like and I just. I just didn't get it because I was. I was just self centered. Little Prick the first time and it was extremely humbling and one of the things us to have not done it so much to do is to contact highly and Carly and apologize for the things that was muttering under my breath about because when you play as a parent or different semi who have played have kids in an old. I thought it was awful. It was awful because she wasn't sleeping. She had literally had to costs on her legs from her toes to her knees and she was in so much pain because her feet were on. She was born crooked. She hadn't started crawling she didn't have to. She actually her first tooth. When I was in lockdown so I missed out on that she just started to battle and she just as for left said that And it's just like what am I doing like? What am I doing to my family again to leave? But I was like no she will one day. Look back and see how much this meant to me and how much it meant for my family so very difficult very difficult. Do not recommend nothing really tough. Okay so we're not on the island yet on the island and some very long podcast is becoming a running themes my all-star deep dives. I think we have to talk about more. Prep like we haven't even gotten into the puzzle notebook that you put on. Instagram. And that's been like such a topic of conversation. Yeah I didn't realize it was going to ignore it so much interest but obviously puzzles is is something that's like now become part of my saliva journey. I'm very glad of that. That's like one of my favorite things about being from the seven. The seven undefeated which is pretty darn cool. Like I'm really proud of myself because I certainly would not have those stats if we were measuring the wrestling challenges over like just the pure push this giant bowl through naty for like five hours. So I'm pretty proud of the puzzles so in terms of like what I did with him I knew that like pauses would be a strength of mine but also it was that investing where it was like. Everyone is going to expect that. I'm good at puzzles now. I have to really be good at puzzles because I was worried about like thinking of David. Wright for example someone who was known to be good at puzzles in life was making polls in his own home but then didn't really convert that when he was on edge of extinction. Am I remembering this correctly? Yeah he yeah. He didn't work out so well. Sure so. That was on that I had in my mind so I decided to stop making this like notebook and and I didn't know what to include in it. I so I literally just said I listed my cousin who was the girl also combat before he came over and I broke me down mentally and we go a ten Alexis account because it's like the first month is free or something like that so get on that score ten dollars free. It's very good content so we basically like started with the more recent seasons and we went and we like scrimshaw all the puzzles so she did most of put it together in some sort of like powerpoint slide. Show thing for me and like screener Alderman. Now let's say there was like all the way back like she didn't give back to the beginning but like around like she didn't like twenty seasons like no every puzzle. Obviously but like she did quite a few of them and then we just started. I started making them. I would print them off big and lemonade them. Get them printed off at my work in secret and then I would like the Mola and I would have to leave them for a couple of weeks. So that I wouldn't remember them and I was trying. I was cutting out a lot not be concentrating and then I would like put them together and like start racing myself and then as I would like do the first time I'll make making time like I would name the puzzle. Do a little time and I would like do it again and see. How quickly could shave down that time? And then what I would do is. I would then get Christine to do it. And because she's she's good at puzzles as well and just so I can see like what would how did I stack up to someone else. And then she would do them. She was making me puzzles as well. And what we actually even did. We started to go are some of the challenges that could potentially be out there and then I would get the puzzle. That was like the one way someone has to explain people who are blindfolded how to do it so we blonde a blindfolded. Christine and then I would like stand like a couple of minutes away and then I'll up on a chair and I would like scream at her to how to put this puzzle together and been through a lot. She's been through a long and like we merely had a divorce over it. Because you go into like just dig up that pace you it. And then she said why. Did you have to scream? Like you're gonNA get voted out. So then we ought to and she was and she was like a Canadian pickup. So basically we've realized that just brings out the worst in us but that was another thing we did. I knew that there were two types of puzzles that we're going to give me grief and one of them was slide puzzles like for some reason. Slide puzzles and I'll just never showed so. I did a lot of prep with slot puzzle. Someone's teach me how to do them. And we basically was being. I was able to do them in like ten seconds and I know that lot shocks Jacques from survivor South Africa said that he could do one in like two seconds and then it stuffed up on the show and I was watching that while going out to the Principals I oh God I need to get to one second. Sorry a figured out. Slide puzzles and the other one. I was really stressed about. I would puzzles like word. Jumbles feel like people. Just expect me to be good at those. Because I'm good at puzzles and I'm an English teacher but for some reason word jumbles something that really. I really struggle with so I went and bought again called banana grams. How good it's been autograph autograph. Just like a teacher thing. I was on a cruise with the whole family. We played the nanograms for three straight days. But autographs is the best and hit me up with you with the open. Autographs pitches online like that. Sounds Fun Yeah I would love that so what I would do is I would come up. I would get. The word puzzles that were on survivor. And I would take the words and take the tiles out the little scrabble tiles. And then I would try and like you know the bundles of them. And then leave them for a week or so so. I wouldn't know what they were and then I would like try and make them but that was always really difficult because if I had night the word in the first place so what is Christine. My sister's then created like a series of survivor phrases and these are in the puzzle. Book can read some of them out to Sorry to So she basically could create them for me and then would leave the little pile of tiles therefore like in the morning. She was having breakfast. Put the tiles there and then I would that not have to feed them out so the phrases related to the best of the best top of their game. A second chance worthy of the title and then things to do with tribals immune from the vote survive. Tonight's tribal living on the edge. Was One the Tribes Spokane? Invulnerable dig deep determination. Persistence turn the game battle and literally just like I would sit there. And just unjumble words like one of those every couple of days. This is what this is what it takes to to to get out of it so then other puzzles that are in. The book is five piece puzzle which was easy to create from Savannah. Cambodian kind of little tips about this goes here. Remember this Christian. Biki slot puzzle was excellence on made that out of COD board and like a little little cardboard box. It was like a seven piece puzzle. I did it was the full pyramid. The one where it's like x hall and it was like skulls and they were like in pieces and sometimes it's like painted coconuts. Yeah the one that came up in my research a lot. Was that one things. Go instant insanity where it's the full colored cubes and there was actually a win is it wall aren't yeah. I've been really tripped out by that and so I- Mehta and you have to make it with the Cubes. The colors on a specific spice. Obviously and I put them put them on these little jeepload blocks of my daughters and then I would try and figure it out and I was doing a weight. Sounds like why Khan Fida his puzzle? I realize that I'd actually put. The stick is on the roles so that the sorry much but then I figure that out once I had actually got that rock Yeah just like so many notables in Boston a couple of years ago Sarah gave me the I think it was a two piece puzzle so I went back and watched that video again and like you know figured out how go together and then I did the puzzle with that was from Ghost Island and then there was two others that are really focused on one was like in Ghost island it was like a Linnea slot puzzle. That Dome Dude if you remember where they kind of the pieces slid across and there was like spaces for like every once in a while. Want to go up so you could shuffle them around and it was like a slob puzzle and a word puzzle so I created my own version of that and that was so fun to do. I've got all these puzzles this folder that I'm like currently looking at right now and there's so many. Arkan is like forty puzzles in here that I've made some that my family for me as well. You should sell that. Well I want to hold onto this one day. Maybe not comply with it and I basically saw the puzzle was cute cross puzzle so interesting story about this which has already been selling. The podcast was the last puzzle. That are really kind of like unsure about was keep crosses and that is the one that is the big giant cubital. The pieces that I did an episode seven and I had always thought God like I really don't know how that public goes together so then I would freeze frame and I'll actually sketched out what each block looked like. Like what each piece Lukla. I couldn't find a version of that. I was satisfied with online. And then I kind of like roped in in the last couple of days before on out there and I spoke to Mike Blue and I said to mock like how do you and I told him you know all stars and I said I need some help. Can you help me track down this puzzle and he kind of likes sent me some links and then I was able to kind of like that? It's sixteen pieces that they agreed secretive full and the way that it goes together and I was okay. We'll the X. piece matches with the peace. That's upside down F. And then the long steep goes on the side like an actually literally wro-wrote out the instructions of how to do the puzzle and on daylight if Dana would've fifteen or so whenever we just doubted the tribes swap when we walked into the challenge. We weren't holding. I was so mad that have been a puzzle yet. I was like a we like three weeks into the show and there has not been a puzzle. This is bullshit like it's physical physical physical so mad and we walk on qb crisis. There and I was like Mike. Oh my God Markley Ma and that puzzle was really difficult. Because you're not just doing it yourself. You're doing it with like eight other people and the pieces way. The unit was so hall but it was so cool that actually kind of liked paid off so my message me she was like. Oh my God. So much yeah. You didn't tell you enough. Shut thought I was like. Oh you were so helpful and I feel bad. I was like what was I doing? Fi story about. These puzzles is in lockdown. Like you know because there's nothing to do like I said I did one day where literally every single one and my floor. There wasn't a very big room but my floor the room and all the desk and on the bed every puzzle was light out and I didn't know that was the day that the executive producer and and her assistant who is going to come in and a little briefing. She walked in. She stopped in her tracks and I had never met the other person because they didn't work on season one and she just turned to her colleague and said welcome to the Beautiful Mind Nikai Days. I thought so embarrassed across is kinda crazy. Well look this is the prep like this is you have to do. You feel like you can leave and not a what happens to you out there that you feel satisfied of what you did. You're saying Hugh crisis is like the last one. Imagine that had been the one where you'd be like. What have I done enough ended? Probably won't come up and then you lose in kicking US L. exactly and season one so many challenges that I actually practiced came up. Like how are they actually did? And that's why not keep going puzzles. Yeah amazing well kind of going to where you were at the time of of going out there season. Four was airing at the time. You weren't doing the podcast. You're welcome how did that impact into you know everything when you were going on so that was really really fascinating because I was watching a season play That is much more in line with all stars in terms of like. It's the evolution of survivor into this kind of very physical more strategic game much more fast paced big season excellent like the players the casting. Everything was just brilliant. And I'm sitting here I'm going holy crops either on my couch. We my wife and I'm sitting there going to be against any who knows. Maybe Harry maybe Andy maybe daisy. Like maybe Sean like these people are going to be playing saliva with unlike was so fascinating and everyone is kind of like forgotten about kind of happened in season. One and some people didn't even know who we were. I can't imagine what it was like for the people who are watching this season air and then knowing that they were going to go out and start playing with everyone like in scrutinizing whatever watching but I was watching I was just like the moment I saw Harry. I was like I love that guy. That guy is my jam like I am going to. But if he's there holy crap ongoing along with that guy because he just sees the game like me he wants to have fun. He's sneaky. He doesn't take it too seriously but what was great about. How is I feel like he really balanced me in the fact that I am can get very frantic? And he's extremely chew and we were like a very good balance selects. Shawny sits rod in the middle that she could be frantic but she can also be very true and it's kind of this really nice continuum that we have what we kind of balance each other out and I remember watching Harry and going like hope on there and I hope he's on my job but like it was really hard because like you know usually tweet along complete social media blackout. I did not a single thing did not comment on any of my comments coming back to haunt me. The Social Media Guy asked me to do one of those instagram takeovers. And I was like there is no way I'm doing instagram. Take over on the season of people. I'm about to play against and then a lot okay. Let's say that I just said thank you. I politely decline with and I was like what an idiot which idiot would actually do this. And then that night it was like hides flick flick. Snowed out there. Or She's incredibly tone deaf about how these matt ended up doing as well and a few other people but definitely wasn't going to be doing that putting my my head out there. Yeah speaking of the cost. Now that you've seen it and play with it who did you do? You think should have been off in. It wasn't out there. Yeah there's definitely some snubs I would say that the biggest snub is Sarah Lake like. I've said this several times. I just think she's so good. She was so good at the game and I don't know what the circumstances are around about. Why she she didn't play. She was off or whatever if she was asked but yet. I'm very certain that she wasn't asked. And I think that was a missed opportunity. The other the two biggest misses I think were Janine and Christie because the story of Christy is fascinating now. I don't WanNA give off at one to tell anyone else's story about who was Austin said no but it seems like a lot of people have since come out and said that they will ask declined the opportunity but there are definitely a Lotta people who could have been there that that one couple of seasonal I I would have been fascinated to see suit out there again and by the white people please stop with a sous big move. I don't think she likes it and it's kind of like sitting. It's upset too so please tell the Dez thing Dez. I would've loved to have seen him out there. I just think that he's a fascinating character season to be like. How do you not have Tessa? But I believe it was off and could not do it and I think that's public knowledge so I'm happy to say that But then Teagan from season for season three like I would've loved to have played with Teagan like loved. She was fascinating. She was just such a scrapper. She was great. Jackie I said before Benji Pia I would`ve. Oh my God I would have to rush as a teenager and she was my winnipeg season and I just. Yeah that was. That was a shine. But do think that there. There was a deep enough bench that could have been some exchanges of who was out there but overall I think the show did a really good job selecting the right people and obviously there were. There were three or four people who said no couldn't do it And then that's when the show. I had two other options so I think the show did pretty good. What do you think I just like? I've talked about the Atlanta going back into it that much but I think just hearing that someone like Sarah was an off is so crazy to me like it. Just it makes you through denies every female cost twice that much more. Because you like okay. We'll do against their so. That's the decision they made. If I feel like I feel better about everything had I known that those like main few people had all said no which some of them did? But not everyone and Sarah's probably like epitomizes. That's in the where it's like. Yeah you're against Sarah. Every single coffee choices against Arafah me and my Lord of the Rings to Sarah. I mean she's one of the characters in the franchise's history so now I'm just like scrutinizing costing more agree with that. I agree with that. I think that for me that the people that went on that I was the most desperate to obviously. I WANNA play with people for mind season because there's just a shade history book outside of those. I wanted to apply with Tessa so badly. Like Tessa is just no one thinks about the game. I don't know many other people who think about the game as on par with more Martha Process as Tessa through upsetting thing. If knowing Benjy was was in the mix and it was more circumstantial. Things didn't play like seeing. That makes me like more lenient. Maybe a male causing choices. Because I'm like well that you know. They tried their best as much as it would have been great to have him on the season so immortal like production of like what was your fault and watches. I couldn't happen because if you only have like one hundred people to play under one hundred people in the causing pool that you have to get him point right you know like we have. We have a lot of quality but you have to really take advantage of that because that's getting a quarter of the people to play again. This huge amount. Yes Yeah and look obviously. There are some that which was different about like the show. Did the best with what they could and still and they didn't do the best and Labib will leave it. Okay well we're GONNA have to go onto the island to a degree. Did you have any expectations of sitting on the plane to feed you? What did you think was about to happen to you I just? I expected people to stick with their seasons are expected to be premature players who are going to go deep because people might be underestimated them. I really thought that pre existing relationships not pre gaming but pre existing relationships were going to define a lot of the season and that was something that I was worried about especially because I thought that I don't know I just thought that that was gonNa have signed that you could mitigate to a point but maybe tried to keep people apart in the first division shore but like you know there's only two twelve than ever going to be able to do that and so that was a big concern for me. I feel kind of like it was the correct me. If I'm using the term curriculum the Mandela affect about mice nakedness. In the game. Like I is that the right term was perceived. Truth keeps getting kind of proliferated. I had this label as the sniper. Right it was disabled that stock and it was a lot branding that kind of work to get me back on the show. I guess because it was like the tagline and from the moment I was cast I was told like we need the snake back and then when I filmed my pre game. Promo thing and you do an interview like a lot of questions about being the snake and the snake and the snake so I knew how they were going to angle me and then when I found out that was gonna be going into the game snaking through the grass like I thought. Okay this is. This is getting Dossey like there. Is this deception out there that I will literally whoever whenever do whatever lie cheat steal and while that is true. I don't want that to be the tagline of lock mosque experience so I was a little bit worried about that. I guess the other thing that the main thing that I was interested in is this idea of legacy. And everyone goes into an all stars or a return season with a legacy. Poverties the flirt. All you know series this Arcand Boston is this like people go and play again with this or around them. How they played the first on. And it's not so much about how other people perceive you. I knew that people see me as people perceive Henry is this. It's about how we perceive ourselves and on legacy do we trapped by legacy or do we feel emboldened by legacy. Do we feel anxious like and I was fascinated and I spent a lot of time thinking on the plane over. They're like would mat. Rogers Feeling Right. Now if he's out here what's he thinking about his legacy? Does he want to get on the Godfather. I'm going to get out there and destroy this game. I'M GONNA BLONDE PEOPLE. Lear all over again or you. Someone look who's like I want to work against my stereo top as being someone who betrayed their best friend and I want to show that I'm loyal I WANNA get into like I was just fascinated me to no end about this idea of legacy and so many people and I feel like I feel. This watchman is war. People were playing out of via of tarnishing their legacy. Did you get that feeling? Who would you point to give me an example? I would say that phoebe was an example. I would say that Shawn was an example. I would think that a the first that comes to mind played but like this idea that like even even Henry like people expect me to do this. I really do see. I have to live up to this I have. I have to live up to this expectation on this person and I felt incredibly frayed by that because like what legacy I fucked up so much like like I literally went to five councils and got voted out at two of them like like nothing of mine. Works like yeah made some good bonds or medical move the Teagan vote like yeah cool a few little things like nothing really that great so I felt like I'm playing with house money. He like and I felt that was something that I did not see from other people like even like someone lead you. For example had this perception that she was like the Absolute Terminator in challenges. And like I felt lucky actually stifled hair at times. Like their two instances I can think of where she did not want to step up to the plate to do I think the first example was when we did the challenge for coffee and it was a challenge in three pots and the third pot was the navigator hall of Boll across the Cheddar cheese. Kind of thing to the top and I was like cool. I'll do that and and everyone was legitimate and get cool. It's autumn wanted to and she kinda backed out of doing it and this. This is not a slot on linear at all but I do feel like she was worried. About what if? I don't win and I feel like that was mainly because every single challenge Jonathan Challenge Peas Lydia like. That's a tough thing to live up to like. She is five foot nothing and she is strong as an ox. But like that is a big legacy to place on someone's shoulders and the other one is like when we did the pushing the domino's for the pasta when they were all lined up like Harry and her was we were standing there and I said push it and she didn't want to push it because she didn't want to be responsible if it didn't go right and it's just like again leers proven herself not only in the room but on survivor but like again. It's this constant you like. What's my legacy and that is kind of what I was expecting. A lot of people to be thinking about. Were you trying to remove yourself from you like if you try and change the perception and like the social game is different to what you were doing. You trying to like correct costs like when before you went out I was your life. You need to absolutely no moral dilemmas at any time. All of the non snaky things like when you were talking to Henry and the very beginning you alive. We don't WanNa make a move. I was like yes. This is exactly what I was saying to us to be able to say you want to build on it and kind of change is good because you're not trying to double down on it. And then not appoint people. I just feel like a lot of people. Were thinking about that legacy out there and it kind of like in some ways. It help them. Someone like Dave but others. It didn't well. We've this is a long term guys. I'm sorry I hope I hope people are finding this fascinating old fascinating but it'd be finding it interesting. It's not just the standard cost because I find this stuff quite interesting. I hope you guys do in if not whoops not why are you here one hour and forty minutes into it? We'll one other unique insight. You can give us before we really do get onto onto. The island is locked down those few days before I played today and I was in lockdown for one hour in my second bedroom of my apartment and it drove me crazy. You felt about lockdown was like. Give away the secrets of the show or anything like that the production. It's not necessary. But the lockdown is this period before the game and you hear a lot about it in American civil when they're when they're ponderosa and they're all there together but they can't talk sherline salon a little bit different like in season one we will brought to the island in groups of eight or so this time we will draw in our little cliques of people that filmed intros. So I was with Harry and Zach the people that we did the snakes in the grass thing and I literally did not see a single person other saliva player onto. I walked out onto that. The show is so slick they are excellent at what they do about keeping the mystery and just kind of luck hot before the game of just like what is going to happen but like in that time like you get a good sense of like a really good sense of Harry and Zach. I just was trying to appear as shoot as possible which is very difficult for me because one. I knew that Harry was so cute and I was trying to kind of have parrot back behaviors that I thought would appeal to him but also a in season one one of the things that always came up afterwards. Was that on the truck of the opening. I looked so sketchy I was like making everyone in the eye and like dotting around and I couldn't see stoop and I just sat there the whole time and just was like slide to me as chose possible since speaking to Asia. He said that I was like you know he might just be being NAS. Our member once we had just arrived. We'd flown there and we had to do a bag check before we got to tell and the guy was opening a hand luggage and like taking everything out about this book. That I've been talking about was in there and I had let post it notes sticking out the top with everyone's nine so I could easily get their pay was like there was like Harry. Janine like benji a luke and they were all there and then he was like can i just want to say and just like ripped every single thing and let rip all the packages and let folded under the last thing i need is like harry and zach to be like these creepy absolute windows like the dossier on but i guess that the what you're really trying to do is you're just trying to calm yourself but you also trying to build connections with people without actually saying doing anything and and always keeping an eye out for the people are going to be standing on my toilet so i could look at this. One teeny teeny window to see a cadre of poss with any other player. And I remember standing there for like thirty minutes in the document toilet I was like what are you doing? I go to bed like but one of the things as we were allowed to have fun when we got there to say that we had arrived. And you know one before. We went into the game keeping secrets yet. I think so so when I go on the fine ticker stain talking and I said Hey I need you to quickly research something for me so that I can have something to talk about in the game and how he was wearing a t shirt that said Brooke Hampton and I had no idea what that was and it was like clearly like some sort of banned t shirt or something like that. I was like go research that and then when I get to give you my final coal before are going to tell me what it is so in that cold. I'm like I'm going to be so much I love you. So much. What what's broke Hampton and then State Route Atlas Inflammation. She broke Cantonese. A and she's like she's like I never saw and tried to see me the soldier. He's just the cutest. Then when we were in the game on day one or two and I was like Oh to all my God calls all my students. Keep me in the loop and stuff. How does that song that goes? You thought that was pretty. That was pretty funny but I think one of the last piece of advice give to someone who's sitting there and lock down and the anxiety of like how you going to go in the game etcetera Blah Blah and just being able to come out and be happy with whatever happens is I wrote myself a letter at since told this because you have to do an exit interview with the psychiatrist and I told her she was how you so well adjusted about weapon. I said I had very real expectations about this and that and I told her that done this and she said Oh my God. This is amazing. I'm going to get all my place to do it what I did is I write myself a win. Little letter for each spot. That might have come. I did like if you're the first you're going to read this in that kind of pre swapped phased read this if you're in the kind of post swap pre merge as release yourself if you made the merge and then if you're in the final two and and. I wrote myself just these little messages that I read an and it's actually like was very soothing when I came out so I was post swapped pre merge and this is what I wrote to myself. Said THIS NICK. This was your your prediction of where you would see. And if that is the case weld on. That's bloody brilliant. You held on you experience twist you got to play around fifteen to twenty days of saliva very clear two hundred. That's brilliant your day. Count May now be over fifty days. Don't stress about not making the merge you know that's when Shit stops being fun now get weeks hung with London and Christine Guilt. Free with a decent amount of days under your belt win win. Well done and I was just like I got out when I was ready. I read that seek those. The best experience of highly recommend people do stuff like that. If you're feeling anxious I wanna read. What the first few on what it said I can read you. Sorry I just closed the book is. That's like that's not as needy oldest positive youth. Ed like very true. Thing is like a huge plus. What fast food is all right? This buddy it's okay truly. It's okay you're a player. You can put that on his tombstone. If you really feel the you have an amazing life and this is just one tiny footnote. This will not destroy. Define your life. It never would if you were. I just allow yourself Tom to willow and then move on. You wouldn't have been chosen if you went great so chin up people not you. If you hold your head heart and just take it in your stride. Pretty good. Did you send that to change? After the thanks buddy and very you did bury this three woods. Written a full words written down if I made fun of that was literally. I have no words. I feel like final tribal and win in two very different things though didn't notice. I didn't make one if I was the winner. Validation I've validated myself can happen. Which one is it? Yeah just very imagine if you came out the winner but you had traumatic experience and you wear your wise words than last nickel deposit and then just wasn't there what my tears of the fifty dollars and then move very true. Okay well if we got anything from that intense Frederick Content. Christine is a queen and you are a little bit unhinged move into the PRI PRI swath of the game the met looking around getting onto Makuta. What were your thoughts on the time? I was stoked with my tribe. I really was like all the debt because it was a few people that I wanted to play with from the other who are on the other tribe but I looked around and I was like this could be very very good for you so I was. I was very excited about which people like while being literally the fact that I was there with Harry was okay cool. That's the first person that I'm like. That was on my wish. I'd like a wish list of five people that I wanted to play with. And they were Harry. Shawny Sean broke an AK and people that I thought about the game the same way as I did and the fact that I got three of them on my tribe to start with was excellent. I was really happy about that and I was very happy. Oh sorry I was very glad because I thought I've tried look super strong and I was very glad that Shane. Gould was on my tribe. Because I wanted Shane Gould like a sap and I thought easy cannon fodder. I'm not going to that. No disrespect because of you know she won. She was on the tribe. With Sean and Leah and it's like this is such an easy sell like if I am the first boot. I deserved to go so I was very glad about that. I was super sketchy that leaves online tribe and I was super sketchy. That Henry was on my tribe. Those are the two that I was really worried about. And then I was pretty ambivalent about. I thought I would have likely the but I thought dad had kind of gotten over that I was pretty ambivalent about Michelle. Being there and Anzac O.'s very ambivalent too happy about having ZAK ABC journals. I'm not going to probably get along with them. But like looking at the tribe. I thought this is pretty good so I was really happy. I was just shocked when I walked out on day. One and Christie did not jump off that truck and it was Shane Gould instead. That was the thing that blew my like blew my mind again. There was no pre gaming with Christie. Or anything like that. None of that was just like how do you not have Christie and just never really news Shane? Good would say again. Your new clues about chain Google. So like unity off like off the grid like she's on her own little grid like and there was just no way that you could have ever anticipated that. So will you guys we not. I challenge which is great and your tiny shorts. Get to the Betty Camp. And so what were those early? Try Antics. Because we've kind of the tend to manifest on screen as like athletes and non athletes. Thought it was more connected than that and even then it was real second week and even later in the second week did that. Division became apparent on screen. So what was it like early? Okay so what was fascinating is. I was ready to get out there and I was ready for it to be like Cambodia. Everyone's going crazy like strategy like running around like I was just like full-on thought it was going to be intense. It was not and the only reason it was not that we didn't have the people who are going to do that. We had plenty of people who are ready to get in there and mix it up is because the show was built for us so this shelter being bill. There was a fire and there was loaded firewood. We literally got there and had nothing to do. We sat down and just chatted. There was no excuse for literally anyone to go off like we did the obligatory exploration as groups but there was no reason anyone needs to go off on their own. It was not. You didn't eat you get coconut coconuts like on the first day like they're all very close to the camp still. You don't need to go searching for them. We will just sit around and just spoke and just chat to each other and it just changed the entire vibe. It was so much more calm and relaxing. You talked to anyone from block them. About what their first few days will lock if sorry the first day was like and it is insanity. There's people running around Blah Blah Blah. We had much more subtle. It was much more subtle game play and what that did is that made me go. Okay I can catch my feet. I can work on the social game without any perceived strategic discussions getting in the way and I just went to town and it was fantastic and do you know what it did emit Henry lose his mind he was shot out of Annan like he was ready to go and he had the auto clue in his pocket. He was emboldened by that we had one. He's on this tribe is on all stars and he just like no one spoke strategy for that. I did that and when they did it was very sorry. She's just very much like hey. I like you like there was a strategy. Don't get me wrong. But like it was not like in season one even which is like the litmus test of like mateship and like no strategy on that day one going off into the Bush recollecting Woodward Sanger. I like you like you don't like this person and for the first couple of albums like that and it was strange. I would recommend to the show not to do that again. Sounds like a bad if now that would be like always. It was amazing. I loved having the shelter and everything like that. But it wasn't conducive to an insane level of paranoia. We talk about Henry said. You have your in friendship. He's been on the PODCAST and at least I hope he knows what the podcast is. A few people who might on the cost and he seemed to feel really good about you and you seem to be trying to help him. As I said you were like become big news. My brother said when you wash that unseen math move and your words come out like I love to your host too high like I feel like I said the C. Word for word and you could not get on the same page as early as that. I talk us through the early progression of this relationship. Yeah it's fascinating because I feel like the Henry dynamic defined like a lot of time in the game now. I was sketchy about Henry because I know Henry personally and I know that like how much he just thinks about the game. And he's really the guy like he really is. He has an offer like finding ways to make things happen that I am so but what became very apparent very clearly was that this was not the tribe he wanted to be on. He could see his little simpsons. You can see the moment whereas little heartbreak July insis- I know you know the kind of like that moment. Where like when when the tribes separated onto those mats and he moved over. And there's like lucky on the other side. Ta Ends on the other side like the young gills that he knows from season one. There'll everyone from season to AAC literally everyone except Michelle like he was in like with Shell and Henry and blue and Leeann. I will like the two the two topples from season one and two and then the other trump was like had so many people from season. One too we very season three heavy analysis on attribute like he felt like I could just see it was palpable and that's what made him cling to me so much because I was like the poor. Inner storm that like. He felt like that he did not fiend and what was very strange. Is that like I wanted to work with him. There's no strangers. Just I wanted to work with him like I work with whoever like anyone who wants to work with me. I'm down like especially Henry who has got a good offer game like he's and he was telling me like legit in for like straightaway lack this person. What if we do this stuff that you can't just throw out there because it will get back like he just trusted I? I think he just leaned into the fact that he knew me in the real world and he straightaway told me about his auto could straight away and this did not make the show at all. This was completely cut out of the show. He told me that the auto clue. He told me about how he found it. He told me about how that Rogers had found one as well. You told me that we if we lost the first immunity where it was going to be he even let me see the clue he let me look at the symbol and study it like this is how locked in he was with me and I was like twenty minutes later that night but you just go you how Donald has been. I was like I'm trying to build a fire and you a lot. That's so cool. Like I should have known him that there was something happening. Like good Nikki. Like I should have gone for the run but he just like light. It allowed there and I was like this is excellent. I'm he with Harry like straightaway straightaway with a really funny story. That started just to kind of go back on the map. Right Day one. Everyone says he says. Welcome to sterling SPA. All-star ever on cheese. Everyone's saying hi. Whatever and then jumping goes literally. I question Nick. You're a bit of a snake and I was like Jonathan seriously so freaked out about that and then I was okay. Hopefully everyone forgets about that. There's going to be each question to questions later. He goes to Harry and this is. How are you joking about these? How he likes stuff. This up majorly goes. How are you a big Fan of this game? Like who came to play with and Harry just kind of like. I don't know whether he panicked or you didn't think about into after he literally both his hands on my shoulders and be like. I'm a huge fan. Like I wanNA play with me and I'm like Oh my God Harry Stop It. Stop it look so I knew from that and from like bobbing with him like on the first. I'd like we were going to be a rock solid and from Camden and Brooke Hampton of course and Sean felt super good with straightaway. Because we just clicked and I was like okay. I'm making this happen. And then with the whole dairy Henry just basically what was strangers that he conned of as every day went on he isolated himself more and more and it looks like that the Roscoe's do a lot of four him and let pushing him under the bus but like an while. I would love to take credit for all of it. Like Henry did a lot of it himself socially and I think he was struggling with the fact that he just people weren't drawn to him like they wear in his season because he's a very charismatic. He's a good looking dude like he's super funny. Light knows how to make you feel like you're the only one in the room and I just. I think he was a little bit thrown off balance by that not occurring as quickly as it was happening from a few other people. It's unbelievable with like a selfish rating cycle. Like if he's upset about the tribe and then he's a bit down and then like the energy is not right and the fanaticism of cabinet the bridal level and it just felt like it just wasn't clicking with the energy and that can be really off putting and then you might like drag us off to the whole definitely and that was me that was means season one thing in four different iterations of trump's. I did that on three of them like like. I know that feeling where it's kind of like this isn't working for me and I don't know why because it works for me every night live so it wasn't Australia. I was still willing to kind of like roll with him. Especially when he told me about the autoclave but where things tend salvo was at the once. We lost the first immunity challenge. And I'm basically the scrambled to get rid of Shane. Gould so Shane was just this easy consensus. I wanted her gone so badly. Lydia and Sean had this preexisting thing with her that she needed to go if we thought about strengths. There's no way she'd be. Outta do the wrestling and all that I know we talked about the cost frequently. Everything's Thomas Gary challenged him. It was like how handled of governors like. It's hard but it's true and like not not for anything. She is one sneaky sneaky lady like like legit you would be talking to her like I would go off and talk to her and while talking she would just bend down and start digging a hole looking for an auto like I'm like China. What are you doing. Oh just looking for an auto in front of me. Like what like and then like she would. You don't fill up water and she would just like be feeling the inside of the well not put a hand in the well and like rustling through things just like not making all like see curdle. The and it made me think that she was doing it for theater that like that. She actually did have one and it kind of like started sketching and everyone felt like super sketchy so then that I not will lying in the shelter and I'm sitting there and everyone started to fall asleep and like I was struggling to get to sleep that I not everyone's done to doze off and I slept down the end. We shawny Henry and then shine and shine got up in the middle of the not off the shelter and then I started hearing this like noise underneath the shelter now I was like shame could underneath a shelter and Jeff and then I could see the camera filming underneath a shelter and I was like. Oh my God. Shane is creeping around underneath. A SHELTER. Looking for auto. So I knew she didn't have one but I thought she might be currently getting so. I literally woke up at least woke up. Everyone and said Shame Shining K. Shine did you. Did you fall like Shannon. You Shelter Shawnee. Is that shine. And then you just rustling stove and everyone wakes up shiny you under the show and like literally everyone was like what the fuck laughing and then she walked in from a different angle. She's like what's wrong plus like all my God Shangkun was crawling under our show and then in my head on maybe not. Maybe she wasn't and I was like Oh. This is the cycle that she was actually under the shelter. And it'll be even more sketchy on her and then it became this running joke because I remember I went and did an interview and it was on the other side of the bay and I had said and then last night I just sounded the alarm and I went. Whoo shines on the show. Do sending my interview right and then I walked back into Cam and as soon as I walk in everyone goes from across the bay. So the kind of this kind of like joke that we're never shine crawling through the bushes and roses you under the shelter. Well a student note to this diet never. I never actually lost. Yeah I've never actually also but like what else could have been the night cameras filming this National Treasure Shingle. She's the best. I actually think she is hilarious. And the most unique crazy person other than that my life and I am a much better person for having two days right okay. We'll as you voting out national treasures Shane Gould. May I'd say Henry's coming to Harry Dent if you're working so harry and he's wanting to overview how did it get to this point with that is what Henry trying to do and you're desperately trying to stop him? Okay so Henry had no numbers. You had no palley social clout. He realized that shine was on the outs and shine. Wanted this idea of having a secret friend. That was like her mind that she kept saying. Should people be like? Would you like to be my secret friend thing and she had mainly in Henry because they were both on the ads and Michelle was kind of with them so I go off to my scrambling pretty hectic everyone's stressing out goff into a comeback ago and everything's fine shines going home and I come back and all hell has broken loose I I personally bumpkin to Sean and shuns like. She has seen a ghost and I was like what has happened and she was nothing nothing. Everything's fine. I was like lear leads. What just happened. She's like. Don't worry everything is fine and it was like protesting too much. This is getting weed and then I walked through camp and there was really odd energy and then I go in. Henry grabs me walk softening in pulled me off. Pulled me off and he goes. It's Harry Harry. It's not like he said it's how it's done. He literally said to me he goes. It's done it's Harry. I said no one's voting for Harry like I'm sorry man you're not very Harry. He's like everyone is literally everyone was like. I said men let me go talk to them because no don't talk twenty one. It's Harry and I was like what like to do like like I said you know the you know that are not bobbing and like Harry's bobbing with you. Why do you want Henry? And he said to me he goes. Harry's the smartest person on this beach I need him gong. And I'm like now not to toot my own horn right but like I know that Henry considers me smart and that I know and I feel like I know a little bit about the game. Not your average. And if he's saying that about Harry he's GonNa be saying that about me. You already doesn't want to be on this beach. He already is willing to talk line number one in his mind to it. Just all fell sewri off. And then he had gone to Sean and he basically schedule Sean and like lied and said how he's coming for you. He wants to get you me Shane. You Leah Nick. Shawny we're voting. We're going to take out Harry. And and Sean and I would love for you to bring this Sean. If you have a speech she just bought into it and she got spooked and and there was no amount of kind of like cajoling. Everyone like like in the show where I go back to the job. And it's like two minutes before lockdown Lydia and Lee and Sean like Henry saying it's Harry and Louise like it's not Harry and she had this giant stick and she liked carves this big s into the ground and I was like okay. She's going like Harpoon me with that sticky for just like. Don't stop talking. But like it was the strange thing where he basically just like tried to strong. Strong Armed Sean. And He tried to strong on me. So we'd go into trouble council that non and was sitting there and did not make the where. We're having a very congenial conversation. And then Harry Henry and then someone sitting in between. I think you might have been sunny. And it was me and Henry Leans back and looks at me and says Floyd Harry Harry Harry any like really like psychotically pointed like Harry. Unlike I'm not voting Harry stop it and he literally said this to me in trouble council. He goes you're either with Hari. You're with me and I literally just don't tell me what to do that while I'm with Harry and just kind of like ended there and in my head. I'm like this guy for real and then he goes Shawn's voting for Harry and I said Okay and I like look down and Shawn's like I'm voting for Harry and I was floored that like she actually believed this complete Bologna that had no foundation and then before Travel Council. Were winding up. I knew that the was in the tree and Henry was looking at it. He kept trying to flounder Blah Blah Blah and that little devil. Mushota was like. Oh my God I'm going to stand up and go get that audio and I'm GonNa play Ari I did. That was just would be so fun but like the most disastrous move. You could ever possibly make like why standout when you can when you do not have to voice in your head being like. Do not do this at the time again. I actually think it was to be honest. How Fun would that have been to? Just stand up grabbed the auto and then just like Bam play on. There was no need because how did not get the votes and and China but interesting little tidbit about the end of that. Travel Council is. I knew that Henry had to get the audio so I kind of like hung back. Everyone's walking down the stairs. And I told Harry hang back and Harry NARCAN was like slowly. Start walking down the of course the stairs the bridge and it looks in the show like Henry just reaches in and grabs it and I think he had mentioned in a few interviews that it actually took quite a while to find which like he can find where it was in the tree and I turned to Harry and say Harry look like completely routed Henry in that moment and said look he's got an auto and then we walked off and that was the end and I was like okay. I've now basically caused with Henry and I now need to figure out how we're going to move forward so that was a pretty eventful. I Travel Council for me at least even though it didn't make the short we'll knowing that he had an idol and that you hadn't worked with him obviously. It's only three tribal councils which is very different to the. Us where it's like. You offer three tribal councils. I guess what was behind the tribe could've could've gotten it. But how is that worth to you like you know? You know that he has it you know that he could give it away where you scared of idle. Never once considered that he would give it to the other life. That's something we would do. I knew that he wanted to do something big with it. But I thought he's in a really bad position and now tribe and he is like haunted by the fact that he didn't play his auto the assumption. I'm making that assumption. But even see it in his little interim package. The one thing that haunts me is that he didn't play the auto for himself. And I thought there's no way that he's not going to hold onto it in some capacity. Nfl even if we win the next two he's going to want to hold onto that and use it as a fake auto so I it never crossed my mind that he would give it to the right. So is that how you found out about it when it gets Matt and episode floor and Talks about that or did you see it the way they did. When did you find out that he'd done very question? Definitely know what happened. Okay so and there's no reason that this should make the edit because it's in that episode anyway so I feel like this totally fund that it didn't so what happens is we come back to camp Just a couple of days in between circle back at this point you know. We're in kind of like episode Jewish and like the little rascals has like solidified has been named and we'll get them in a second but Henry was very much seeing me as number one and he was very much trying to build bonds with the other tribe thinking that some sort of swap was coming soon and that would be. He's saving brags because he thought that he would never get voted out before swap because of his size and the tribe needed him especially a tribe valued strengh so he thought if I don't have any sought out full malas on the other side so one day he comes to me and he says. I've got big plans for the auto when I was sick. What are we doing like like I'm down like let's just talk about it because I had proven that he wanted to dictate and I was like. Let's talk about your autumn. But let's let's discuss it he goes. I'm going to give it to that. And my jaw hit the floor like like I know Henry is crazy like I know that better than anyone on that beach but I never anticipated that he would do something that stupid like Henry Matt was enemy public enemy number. One everyone tribe was talking about go to get rid of that gotta get. Sean was talking about it. Abby was talking about even John like they will allow all Rogge's he so powerful east so scary. Don't WanNa lineup against him Blah Blah Blah Blah. And like you just never crossed my mind. I thought that he might do something crazy with it. Like try and do some sort of swap. But I thought he would pick someone that he knew. He didn't know that from a bar of soap and just it was very clear crazy. In hindsight you didn't give it to walkie. His argument and I was like a K. Eight talk me through this. He's argument was that Matt knew that there was an auto clue and that Henry would have because he went to trouble council the first night because Matt also got the same clue and that if he didn't do something with it to help map it would make angry at him. I'm like you like you don't know him anything like and we knew that we knew the tribal dynamics on the other side because everyone off the challenges. Michelle was going to Jackie. And like I was chatting till I see one people running that has gets a quick glimpses and you see some of the at the end of the challenge. Nips Matt talking to shine and everyone was doing it so we knew that we're in the minority over there and I just couldn't believe it and the first thing I said to him I said Dude? Don't do this again. Trying to warn him to kind of keep police headed. It's going to blow up and it's going to take out one of your friends from season two. It's going to take out lucky it's going to take out it's GonNa take out Jericho. Let these people that you know these people that like Hugh. I'm not able to work within the future. And he literally said I don't give an f signing like Bo Burnham all down and I was like cheeses cross like this guy is unhinged life on down for causing trouble like we know this. I'll make our phones I like you. I'll do whatever but it was insanity to me that you would do such a crazy thing that he's going to get out to everyone on to sorry for you have this plan and just just did not sit well with me. I tried to stop tried to tell him that he could use it as a fake and he and then he said that no no. I've been told him not allowed to do that. Don't believe it I've also been. I said okay no way they would time. There's no way and I said what if you sell it off to another play in the tribe as like Andrew Auto and it's like a fake auto and then we can low up. Someone's game that way. Like what if we tell John John? Appear to be honest actually mentioned Johns nine. I was just running through the district's trying to teach at Johns react. It'll be like forty. And he just he just could not be told and I said okay this and that was the exact moment that he lost me when he said I didn't care because he wanted to be on that trump so badly to play with his friends and yet he was willing to literally blow them all to pieces. What is he going to do to me? Like I'm only here because he needs me at this moment. So that was a very very Telling telling speaking of the other tribe you're watching Jerry. Gopher to win is out the door then. You're watching days ego so looking at that. How did you feel that the culture of the thieves and was kind of moving along so I was very glad that Jericho went home? He's a lovely I like. I've met him once so maybe once and would have a beer with him. Any Day of the week did not want to play with him and that was from my deep dog that I did with him as well. Reaffirmed that just everything. I've done everything I've always thought about his game. He's just like super risky and like he's a great player but I don't think he thinks through his moves all the time. They always work because he's so brilliant right but I just feel like again I was about trying to maintain some sort of calmness like any people wanted to cause trouble needed to do in a more subtle way the way that Harry and Shawnee wanted to do that was like nineteen a facade of of social integration and then kind of like we can cause havoc on the side and just. I was happy that Jericho win thing. With daisy and this is an interesting story that also didn't make the so Henry tells me he's going to do this thing with the auto and our Trentham out of in the lead up to the not before the challenge where he actually handed over the one big bowl he pulls me aside and he goes. Okay sorry I have pulled Harry and shown Assad and I pulled him out of say okay. Harry's Henry's got an auto. This is what it is. This is how it lasts. This is what he wants to do with. How do we mitigate what's about to happen so we came up with a plan and we will okay? This is what we're going to do to make sure that doesn't blow back on us and how names two seconds after that Henry pools pulled me aside and Harry and says guys i WanNa tell you something. And he was lying. Harry shoney's if he hadn't told me and he goes. I want to tell you guys about this auto so he brings us into this plan because he wants us to then. And I still haven't quite understood this in Shannon's you could help me understand. Continue Challenge. He wanted us to give he was going to give the auto to map to vote out someone in the majority and he wanted us to go and tell everyone that. Matt had an auto so he wanted me to go flying someone. He wanted us to go kind of spread the news and I just made even less sense to me because first of all now everyone knows that you have blown up the game brought the auto then become somewhat palace. I guess we'll majority nose down it. It's all I mean. The whole thing is he doesn't there's is Dave thing creating but without that then they could just you know put the voice on the League suspecting person who voted out and then the idol is wasted. So so I don't get what the purposes because because you never know what was happening on the you know the dynamics you had no idea that what type Dean Dave Konig usurp the lawn. Lot that move because he had a much bigger and better plan going. At the same time which auto perfectly facilitated and made very little sense so after he went to bed hurry and Shawnee Nas sat down and we said all right. We're GONNA do this our way. Let's tell everyone but we're going to tell Alvis. My job was to find AK Harry's was to find I think Jay would daisy. I can't quite remember. Shunning was to keep eyes on Henry and make sure that he actually did make the switch that he wasn't actually just bluffing us and we all kind of like just basically dispersed during that challenge. Like when I can I wrestling? I'm like dude. Henry has an auto. He's giving it to Matt. He wants to blow gained and I just like sold out the river. So that's how they knew and when you go back and you watch that same AK doesn't actually see it he says I'm one hundred percent certain that Henry has an auto and that's because we told him but we told Him out vision of the story. Which then when they went back to lock. Emma they knew how he had the auto and everyone was filthy on Henry. Yeah that's a big move and the first week. That's what I was telling you not to do going through both tribes in the space of one challenge. Yeah and then I thought look we need to save some sort of face here because Henry make it seem like we were all in on it and we certainly were not all in on so I also then. I think it was all the CIA. After after the challenge I then went and told Abby Sean Lee the Ah Lee told all that I didn't tell Zach or John. I told them about what had happened. And said everyone. Keep it under your vest. Fina- it's going to come out in the next few days. I'm sure and sure enough when we went to the challenge to the next day. Blow the lock and I was very very proud of everyone's acting that day because everyone just was like. Oh my God wow like. How did that Happen Henry? Yeah so we used surprise then that it was Davey who had been in the majority because the majority you would have thought could have gotten it together. I was not surprised because I just thought that. Like why? Give ammunition to people and and when they walked in. An daisy was the one who was voted. Henry looked at me and he was shocked drive and he looked at me and he could tell he was just trying to quickly recalibrate. Because I think that someone that you know he could have seen him what he would have along perfectly perfectly. Well I think he was very shocked at that and he turned and said we did that and I said nobody you did that. And he was just very he was very very shocked by that so then when we came back to the camp that after the reward challenge and we had lost. Henry went on like a bit of a show until reparations in settling down at the fire and showed them the clues and show them what had happened and explain why he did it and everyone was like cool yet. No good. That was good. Everyone believes you all good all good. And he thought he'd gotten away with it. And I I just feel like I love watching Henry on TV and I think the Henry such good Garner left but you do not WanNa play survival with Henry. Like he's thinking too many steps ahead in ways that it probably not actually beneficial for his own gain and for Yoga and I think you summed it up perfectly when you said the thing in the it was the preseason thing about how all this stuff worked for him but it should've yes and that allowed him to come back and say everything was great. I just didn't play my idol and it's like I don't know I don't even know how you made it through this time like it was that good and other areas of the game that it worked out but like why are you playing this game on difficult word like you made it so hard for yourself so. I did catch up to him this time. And we'll talk about it. But in his final words he was like you know what I came out to odds so leslie and and he's and he and he took it like a champ he took it like an absolute sham and he loves the game and he just wants to make good. Tv and I appreciate that so much. Just don't make good TV in my cam. Well to get you through. The next vote wishes. Michelle going home. New was aligned with handwriting. We just got to circle back. It's just a few things kind of lead into that. Michelle that I think are important and those kind of center around the idea of the little rascals those so many questions that came out at this time of the Michelle of like Michelle's the perfect little rascal like yeah. That happened like yeah and like we not blind to that like we knew that was the case right. We wanted that to happen but there was other things in the pipeline that Michelle didn't know about and the audience didn't know about and the narrative which was easy and very nice and fun to sell. Is that all of Mukunda. Eliane is outside of the Henry Drama is rascals the strength and that is absolutely not what was actually occurring like towards the end of the swap. After like a few other things had gone down like it started to feel more like that in camp but I never ever felt that way in the first few days and especially the first few votes because I had this really great thing happening with raw schools. But I had a really great thing thing happening with Sean. We Lydia with abby and we'd leave and I felt extremely insulated in this tribe like and that's a strange feeling to me and like I said I will happily admit I often only adds in a very big way like I do not know the safety of a good alliance and and felt very comfortable with Paul because I had so many options and I believe that I had probably the most options on that entire tribe I had the little rascals locked in like we would like. I had a big thing going with Harry. And we'd Linear my alliance with Li which was paying off in dividends with how much information he was telling me. We had had henry who wanted to bring me like every piece of information and include me in everything and I just felt like that what happened with Michelle was that like. I just didn't need Michelle and Michelle was causing. She didn't fit in socially either Saharan. Henry had like very little social capital and it just felt like it wasn't going to work with her and And it also didn't need to work is the other thing. Did I want to get rid of Michelle nor onto Henry? Henry would have freed up. Michaud shell would have worked with US more. Because she would have stuck with us. I fell and then we could have brought her in as one of the show and Michelle had a fantastic relationship. But it just didn't happen that way because the majority did not want to get rid of Henry and as kind of like a they want to get rid of the show and then they kind of wanted to Henry as the Split Vote. And it's like all this bad is the worst idea ever. You'll like literally like telling him he's next and the last person on earth you want to tell who's next. Yeah so here's my question. Really be question I have for your game. When is back at it and try to deconstruct it and where things went wrong? Got An aim in mind and it Sean and looking back and something you probably couldn't know at the time because it's pretty broad and because I guess Sean is that good and you would kind of know the decision she was making. But knowing especially like Sean connections to what I'm calling and what have I have called the beach in shelter people. I can see on vodka the beach people and the shelter people like funding crew like Ohlmeyer crew and on your tribe. Even though it was more communal the rascals are clearly the beach people and the athletes of the shelter people and then when these tribes kind of swapped those groups did somewhat stay in those groups and then getting to emerge they stayed divided the same so knowing now and it complete hindsight that dichotomy remains throughout. You look back and think I should have taken that even with the risk of Henry and I should have gone more fractured less. Which would have been against from remind vice pres even gone against it and got that win for the beach people and then if it was gonna be divided season and lanes at least you would have been on the wing side yet. So and I believe that of all the pre swap Makuta votes like this is the one where we had. Harry are particularly. Explain that in a second had the most choice of if we flip. Devo one way we could have done three. We had three in our hands in that moment. Three like all three Sean will. We could have gone by some what we wanted. Sean could've gone by someone we wanted. Henry gone and based on what he wanted. Michelle who've gone and it was just. We had to decide what was the best way to go. And this is probably the moment where it's like. The what if scenario so what I did was I tried to kind of project. Full would not try to imagine. Okay well first of all they want to take out sean and South End Harry. Re-really down for that we would have. He was way more than I was. But like if they had said Abby now I'm a little bit more interested okay and Sunny. One hundred percent would have been more interested in that. Let's just say whoever it is? Let's project prognosticate forward if we move as a seeks with the rascals and Zach Michaud and Henry what we now have is. We have the rest of the people who are left behind. Who Know that. I've read it. That we as a collective roscoe's have read out and Henry. They can straight away. Tell Henry what we did and now Henry's like a hold on a second. What did you do so now? We've got an angry Henry because the others are going to try and get back in the majority and then I'm committing to moving forward with three people who've proven that they can't make social bonds in a tribe. Michaud ZAC and Henry. Three people on the bottom. I wanted to go into a swap scenario with people who were like to bring people and everyone maybe once. I go to know Zack. But at first now the girls wanted anything to do right once. You get to know him different story. I didn't WanNa go to emerge with Zak with crazy Henry and Michelle who author was flaky. Floaty sketchy willing to do whatever it took to get one more vote known. Liar told me herself that she laws. And I'm also committing to a six where I don't have the numerical advantage of people who I really trust if it was like four and two maybe and the other thing that we're all forgetting because it didn't come up this season Michelle and Henry the champagne alliance. Michelle is the reason why Henry went home so if we go to some sort of swap scenario and often Matt's auto has worked. Yeah say we end up on a tribe and it's myself Michelle and Henry and then a bunch of nuts people and whatever. Who's to say that Henry is not going to go great? I've now got a better and bigger thing going on. Nick routed me out and Michelle I want revenge for what happened to Elliott Bam Bam a just every way US lost it it just did not feel right to me to move forward with that group of people and while it would've been a little bit more fun actually would have been more fun. Just didn't make sense. Opened us up to y more danger than we did the other way. Now I knew going the other way that Shawny was in trouble. And she's probably going to hate me for saying this but like it was almost like Hyena was like we had a thing going and I'll explain that in a second book. It felt like if we went with them. If everything really went tits up like really really went up like I was still not going home but if we went the other way and everything went tits up. I was number one person in the firing line and I just felt like that was not the way to go now. So you say maybe a little bit of power in the tribe for longer term safety absolutely. Because I'm not a PAL hungry. Play it right and this is the difference between someone like Henry or someone like Dave like. And maybe that's why they're better than me. I always say I'm not sure but either I don't feel the need to have like a dictating. The rules making the plays. It's all my way or the highway. I want to be in a group of people who are stable. Who a steady who. I can predict what's going to happen because it's still. We're still in single digit days of Fifty Day game now where I take that other group one hundred times out of one hundred because there's fractures. There's people that don't like each other. There's people that are not going to get any votes the end buffalo and the merger never would have gone day eight. Whatever it was we had. It was a no brainer to me to cut my show Henry next because everyone promised that Henry was going to be next and we still move forward as the little rascals. Now the other of the puzzle is and what didn't get Sean. And what linear and abby have spoken about quite highly in the interviews is that I had something going with them. There was a core seven alliance in the trial which is quite large. But when you'RE GONNA TRY TWELVE. That's quite large. Within this seven there was a four. And that four was myself. Harry Lydia and Sean so how we arrived at that point and it was skipping a little bit ahead here but this is all pre swap Makita. How we arrived at that point was Lydia was adamant that she didn't want to play with shining and at this point it was becoming increasingly more difficult to save shunning. She said if you get rid of Shawny I'll get rid of Abbey and I thaw okay. I can entertain that idea for now and dangled as a carrot moving forward and hopefully protection at the same time. But we the center that kind of Fulcrum of the entire lines and I think that shows in the fact that never came up at all yet the show makes it look like I was always on the kind of on the outs of all the votes most of the votes. And that's not the case. So that's the bid. I got lost in the shuffle and in terms of you have the ability to vote for Henry on the split like I said at the time that would have made no sense to me like you is defying the athletes to get out Henry but also maintaining the minority position. Now that you've pissed off already insured that you work with him. I couldn't have been an option absolutely so we had three when it was becoming clear that the the big group did not want Henry to go Harry and Shawnee and I put in work like we put in so much work to coordinate where every single person was voting in that tribe so that it was an I am not going to be able to the mass of my head but the way that the split win was that if Harry and is Sean he was ended up working was was always. GonNa Vote Henry because we just the way the split win but if we needed to all three of us could have swapped votes and we could have gotten got now sean anyway so we just made sure we were in that fulcrum position of that vote and we came up with this idea. We said okay. We've got the naughty plan and we've got the NAS plan. I'm really not plan really really really naughty. Plan was to avoid Sean Right. And that's because that was the thing that most people didn't know and that would cause the biggest kind of chaos so we had this idea and we said let's go away the speaker out whatever else is doing and we'll come back. We'll just say what we're doing and Harry was the last person I checked in with before trouble and it was great. We would run up to each other. Say What are we doing? Yes cool done easy sorted and we would walk and it was very communal. It was not not dictating and at that point we liked. What are we doing? Are we going going not what you WanNa do and I was like I think we do? This is cool. I think we do this as well. And then just disappear and then travel council. He leaned in. Here's you show. You WanNa do this and I said yet because you show up yet done. We voted out my show so we put ourselves in that position so that we could gather as much information as possible and the other part of this. Puzzle is Zack. So Zack went into that trouble thinking that it was going to be. Sean and that him Michelle and Henry. We're going to also be very. They were going to be running for Sean literally. Thirty seconds before he stood up to go vote. I whispered to show it's not Sean. No one's very shumpert from show. And here's what I said. Vote for Michelle Trust. You don't WanNa be on the wrong side of the numbers. It's just changed. And then he voted for Michelle at that moment like literally got up and walked the booth with this quizzical. Look on his face and then votes and goes and looks and I guess. I'm voting for Michaud. So in that kind of brought him closer to us so that it wasn't him and Andrew on the bottom of the alliance. It was just Henry. Well you said athletes insisted on splitting on Henry. Who else would they have split on if not Henry? That's a good question. I think there was any fee that she had an Abu. I think it was more like what they do. Not Understand what they thought was actually like a give and take was okay. We weren't out Henry but we will split the votes on Henry. Is that good? And it's like no no that's worse like but then the wheels were in motion. It was very difficult to kind of like stop it because then they became adamant La. Okay no voting Henry Like you know what it's already fucked anyway like like it's already stuff like they're going to. Henry is going to be pissed off as it is in for a penny in for a pound would henry out but as a favor to you we will anger him immeasurably so happy birthday definitely definitely it was just. I just kept trying to say to them. Like you. Don't know Henry Henry like you think he's just this like really good guy the game and he made a few moves and he went out with an idleness Puckett. And he's GonNa like full at some point and it's like but he's going to drag us down with him and like. I just wish it didn't go that way. I just wish that Henry and like you said earlier. You can't not play your top like you have to play who you just wish that. He was willing to be a bit more communal in the discussions. Because he's so badly wanted to be in the little rascals right there was because we told him about it and we said Oh. Would you like to join lentil join the little rascals and he was like cool one day? I'm going to get Papaya and I'm GONNA sneak off and we're going to. I'm going to get full stope. Stools Org sit in the jungle and eat Papaya. Okay and then you just never did it and like tried to do it and he was. Just sketchy anybody wanted to keep going like. Let's Lindros and just commitment to being a four not like one person dictating to what we're all going to do and we will sign on the dotted line. But like he just couldn't scratch the each so coming back from that split and he was angry. How are you trying to deal with? That fallout my God. That was I was so mad. I was so mad because that day was day off. It was ten and I knew that the other people that almost this to happen. Abby Lee is Y- you know the Sean. They forced this to happen and weren't going to have to deal with any of the ramifications and I was going to have to sit there and I keep my Henry Management into overdrive and not only that then rained off. Everyone like crazy and not only that. It was raining so we will have to sit in the shelter and is that great scene. Where like he's like. Don't dude me Blah Blah Blah and the rain and like. Oh my God. That went full Alice. Hours of Henri going. Well I'm going home. I'm going to drag down with me and I'm going to grab it out of my hat and like you're GonNa go and I'm going to go and like you just doesn't make sense. And he would just sitting. He was just like ruminating and I felt so bad for him and in that moment I was like dude. Just calm down. We can savage this. Like you can salvage. This game is over like I just need you to just relax but there was just no talking him off the ledge at that point. I was freaking out because I henry is GONNA go apoplectic. He's GonNa get crazy and he's GonNa talk at me which is probably what he should have done. But he couldn't have got off the ground and this is why. I'm proud of my early game in an office park close to pieces but like I'm proud again. Because if he had tried to float literally anyone else in the tribe maybe with Zach floated with anyone else they would have said no henry. We're not doing that so I had to sit there and just kind of like just take it really for house. Well it's getting a little bit in that like rainy off day because you guys win ice cream lucky and phoebe come ova and Shawny finds the idol so talk us through how this is developing in a positive way. Yes Sir Henry has like literally the most amazing one on one challenge when I've seen on survivor like when he bounces. The thing on the thing. It's a little paddle any bounce bounce bounce bounce bank do onto today's absolutely dunked on it in my head. This is bad for my car and arguments that he needs to go like that was so sick and what was also good about that. Is it Kinda like gave Henry some kind of a glimmer of pipe? So he kind of like was able to. He thought that he could maybe try and work his way back in by being congenial and he didn't have to go down to blow everything up route so he kind of helped me as well. And we want Oscar which brilliant so lucky fi become. I've I'm pretty sure this is where we found out about the mole by official told me about the day of being the mole at this point con-conflict. Shawny after the. The challenge is wrapping up. I say to someone wears Shawnee and I said she's gone off seek and I was like that doesn't sound right. She would've asked me to talk to me told me I'm seek like keep an eye on the I just didn't feel right to me. So go walk off to the world funder and like I would rank that moment as one of my top. Three moments of the entire season that was the the pure unadulterated joy. I fell her. Finding that auto is just. This is the stuff of legends. Like like I just the at the reunion. One of the executive producers came up to me and said. Do you know my favorite moment of the season was. You'll like stupid little happy. Dance when Sean on the art of a loved it so much about what it meant. Is it meant that like we? We now had something tangible to to to move forward in the game and like I knew I wasn't going. I'm coughing votes but Shawny one hundred percent was next on the chopping block and Henry. Dirty told me he's like I'm gonNA throw your friend under the bus. How do you like that kind of thing and I was like God? It was just perfect. So the debate really came from we. Will I stoked the debate at that point was like can we can the rascals convinced everyone that it should be? Henry should we can. We convince them to come. Good on the promise that Abby and Lydia gave me which was that Henry will go home if you give if you give up Michelle I can. We get them to come. Promised to that Sean. He doesn't have to use the auto and we were going to take a huge risk and not play the idol that now so that we had something and we said well what do you WanNa do with the Shawnee and I forget we looked at each other and when blindside abby the next voice and we both sit at the same time like yeah. Let's do that like okay. We need to hold onto this article. That was that would have been the best case in our hold onto and then blindside abby at the next one with the auto but it just became increasingly clear as we were going that it was very hard to change that shift that strength based approach and we were going to use the use the auto will now we know that abby and Sean and the raw schools against Henry leave voted for Shawnee but because he was scared of Henry's fake idol being reliable and he didn't know like if the votes I guess would bounce back onto Shawny didn't make a ton of theoretical sends but we'll go with it so looking back firstly. I want your take on the title and I also want to take on at a revote. If it come to. The I hadn't been played. Who Do you think would have been going home? And why yeah and this is the million dollar question and I still in my mind. Don't have a clear answer and Sean I've spoken about this and we don't really. I was of the belief the day after and it kind of informs the decision making that. I made the next episode that they weren't going to make good on their promise. Lee Lease confessional. Kind of makes me think that like they had all decided to justify five split and then on the revoke Henry and I would just testing that but then why would they need a live. Bob Split so what I actually think was going to happen. Was I actually believe? And this is probably completely wrong. But my conjecture is that maybe Sean was going to vote for Sean as well. And then when Henry pulled out the auto thing she flipped over to make a five five two timed flush. Any potential autos. I don't know if that's true. I don't have an answer full you. All I know is that even if they decided on the revolt that he was going home and not her a firefight split was not what we decided. So that makes me that annoyed me in any way that really just annoyed me and they just could not get over this idea of strength like and it just really this. Is this often? This vote like when they didn't addy made good on their promise. I will say that. But Lydia didn't because they just did not want to keep losing and we will sucking so hard like we will losing everything. It makes me think that they wouldn't have. I'm not sure I think that it just was. Henry was becoming really untenable. When he was he was starting to Piss off. Lee with just doesn't like things to and Henry was really complicating things. Auditor splitting the vote splitting it. To take out Henry with Sean as the backup because they're not going to think this shows an idle because of maybe. I don't know like archetype like you'd think much more Henry than plus doing the fake idol things so like that would make sense and obviously it does seem like Lee wanted to vote on Henry but then again if Sean flipped I'm not sure did they are going to be five five. That's confusing one. I just I really don't know the answer to. I would con- unlocked tonight. I don't WanNa risk like risk it just to satisfy curiosity to go back and do it all again like we became clear as the travel was going on that. Sean HAD TO PLAY AUTO. And if you go back and watch the episode you can see us whispering so much like probably too much. It was very obvious that I was working with her. And so that was probably bad on me but like I should I should I play and and I said at first I said No. I think you're okay. But then as the trouble went on off Sean. I think you need to Playa. I'm it's your call. It's your auto want to. I want to be the one responsible for him. He's playing it so I said it's your call I would if it was made but it's your call. Whatever you do support you so I was very glad when she did pull it out and what was also cool about when she did pull it out is like my shocked face and then afterwards everyone was like you didn't know him like I had no idea and then that made everyone feel much more much better about the fact that heroin. I went like so in cahoots thing ever very proud of her and I was Super Predator. That was so funny when she's like all right. Well I'll play if yours room. You should. Yeah well what did you think of the idol plan? Like you've seemed pretty convinced it wasn't real okay. So this is. I've been dying to tell the story. I knew that that was not real but one main reason. And that's because I had the exact same idea. He confirmed this one. Actually yes was one of my strategies going out there to play that. If you're ever in a really tough spot you pretend and I got the idea from Severe South Africa when Palesa pools the idol in she finds it at travel. And I just thought if I'm ever really in trouble I can just pretend that I've got an auto that I stand up. Go grab it and then I'll sit back down and people in causes enough doubt. Hopefully to kind of flip things up. Yes then you hold me. You know shortly before he went out. And you're like if I'm ever in trouble. I'm scared that I'M GONNA be like it was last time where I knew I was going but I had like. There was nothing I could do about it. I'M GONNA like they hide an idol at tribal and I was like. Oh my God just make friends like he was alive and it seemed like a bit of a crazy plan but then when I watched the episode and so Henry do something you had described to me. Preseason to Pete I said no wonder. Nick is not biased because he came up with it himself and it was like. Do you think you gave the idea to Henry. I'm like maybe I guess came up with the same thing and this is why like I have that kind of crazy salko speed in me as well about like the way. Henry plays the game but like I feel like like I'm white better at keeping it under wraps like all the time clearly around the wraps I think like he does like sometimes I just would never fully with some of the other stuff. He does so when he did. I was like whole-wheat cow like I can. And it just fell in my mind. It was like such validation for everything that I had been saying to everyone about you. Nine Henry Lock on Henry like you trust me on this fact life. I think I know how he thinks. And I just wanted to like all suckers like I want you to prove how much you know Henry but it also was good because it proved to them that wow we really did make the right. Coal like he was he could have done anything. And then that kind of like mitigated a lot of the damage that I had done in pushing so hard for him so so if you watch the episode when Henry Sits Down you actually see out of the corner of the frankly see me leaning forward to go up and they kind of like did this big dramatic pause and then send my off towards the moment. He sat down. I literally said. Can I say something like that is not an idle? I saw him put that down now to be honest. I didn't actually see him. Put it down but what I did see is because where I was sitting. When he was fake looking for the auto he actually had it in the flower bed. And what he did is he accidentally uncovered too quickly and it looked so what he did with one hand. He swatted back into the undergrowth and then looked a bit more and then went and put it up so it became like something already obvious to me. Became like one hundred percent confirmed that he had put that there so I was able to say like he put that day. I saw him put it there. That is not what a real auto looks like. I said I've seen auto because of Henry's like I I ki- showed me the odd. I sold what it looked like and that is not the size of it because they had that big massive Jim in the middle and he's will look way too small an I'd also seen him chop up his genes that that afternoon. Because that's the package. Put Him in which was really cool. I also I didn't say this but I was like that's like the denim like that's his pants. I didn't I didn't need to go into all that bus. I need long pants. So you can use the materials. I would never be able to do that with my short you. Wouldn't you literally have an idol in them to be also plan based on something he'd actually done a week before like finding an idle at travel council? Which you knew about so yes exactly and no one else really had seen that and the way he had to go about it because I didn't specifics about where it was found. So that was also clear so in lockdown so this is what I did. I actually had a fake abroad class into the game which was like a leather strap and he had these rings and like a big Arrow one. That looks like something that you couldn't find on the island jewelry on day one. I literally took off and hid it if I ever needed it for later. But in lockdown what I was doing is I was actually practicing walking across the room standing up wearing my like day one outfit so like my ship that I would often wear the tribal council and I walked across the room and I would practice reaching my hand behind the basin and sliding out from my sleeve the auto and then pretending that I had unhoped and then walking back with her and what I was going to do is I was going to do it. On the back of the jury bench lane over slotted out could see and then pretend off the back and then walk over so I had this full thing ready to go and we'll also is like the not that I was like man like I could have tried that but like it wouldn't work because obviously Sean and Leigh already there and everyone knew about it because everyone had told everyone about what had happened so it was just like Oh like he actually did the exact same plan and life amendment. Auden couldn't do it which you know. It's it's a flawed plan. Because why would you do before the votes are red? And why would you not do it after like it's it's better than nothing so? I really admired that he did. Abby become the vote that was like definitely against Henry that you're not thinking flipped one way or the other and was like she was so anti Shawnee but she's fourth strong Henry boot because this again it goes back to the fact that abby are had a very strong relationship that we could get over this one thing which was strength strength strength strength strange but other than that we wanted to. I was happy to go with her to the end. Like because I thought that not many I think I could have easily beaten her like an final to not in the physical challenge. Should've trounce mean every single one of them. I was happy to see the end with abby. I trust she was telling me pretty much everything that was happening. I never once quarter an ally. She was very honest about who she liked and didn't like on the other side. She had a connection to Dave which I thought was good. Because I didn't have anything. I was very keen to work with an kept that relationship going. I would sleep head to head in the in the shelter and not like me. Surely Linear Sean. We would sit there and we will chat until stories and and Abby and all I had this really good relationship and she she she thought it was really funny. I thought she was hilarious. She grew up in big hobby. Which is the place where I go to all the time here in South Australia. She reminded me a little bit of my sister. In some ways it was actually really funny that I'd like tried to bond with. Abby is an audit really know a ton about footy on off. I enjoy watching it every once in a while. Nothing like you but actually logic looked up before I left when a when she lost played in Adelaide and the place where she played in who she played and who won. And when I was out there I said Yeah like I always tell my students about like the power of IFAW. And I took all my my students to come what she play wants down or whatever she was like really and I was like. Yeah like your boss. I tell them all the time like we have to support female. This is all stuff that I truly believe and I have gone to the forty with my students before but like I just made it up that we went and saw her game and like I just feel like we developed this connection. That was was really good and the other thing that we kind of like bundle about was like she felt very personally attacked by Steve Bradbury and then I was able to sit like and I was like yeah when Sam Webb personally attacked me. And she's like Oh my tell so then I would con- bond about and like Abbie way stronger relationship than we. We talk every few days. Not now still like pretty crazy. Well okay so to finish off this priests for three hours into those pass. The extrovert obviously the the top to get him. Which means complete mathematical sense? Go to exile. But you don't know that trainings have played an idol. They weren't true Henry Plan of you would have hoped coming back and working it through. I think this is the thing you online was. Maybe the most different from the added that we saw through that vote. Yes so we'll just to step back. We like I had come. We'd come back. Henry had gone Shawny had auto and it was everyone kind of felt like a little bit. You can tell everyone was breathing a sigh of relief that he was gone but there was a lot of kind of like chaos simmering kind of chaos and Shawny steaming like she was so mad but also like super happy that she had done this thing and and so I came up with this thing about like how to mitigate how much chaos I personally had caused and I've made this joke that like oh like we all like. Whose turn is it to like f the plan now I was like. Oh he abby. He's the plan. Why don't you have to plan a little bit? Ha and then we would let pretend that there was this plan that we would let poss- around and just like beat up and destroy and like and it was a running joke the and then I kind of trying to mitigate it by saying that we all had just kept messing with all the plans and and I was. I was because I was very conscious of the fact that like I had been the dissenting voice in a lot of the votes so it was really trying to put a stop to that and I thought okay henrico on Shani's plateau maybe they'll they'll give us some heat that everyone kind of move onto someone else. We can like very easily. Just get behind that we will find another way and I thought everything will be good. We were starting to laugh again. You know the Zapotec five thousand. Meanwhile he pulled the shelter apart to make that Zach attack things. That's part of the show to start at the full So I pretended I didn't know about Chinese auto that border everything seemed to be going really well. So on the buoyancy of that we stopped bringing Zach and we stopped brain and saying look. You have been left out of like nearly every single. Vote like you didn't know about. Sean is auto like neither did I. We had to tell you the last minute about Michelle. You didn't know about this enormous that and this and come come in and and I've actually most of this to Harry and shunning. They did most of the work I did not I did bits. You can see in the episode. He says how I've got a really good social game. And then Henry Says Harry Beautifully says will you can partake in that as well like come work with us. And Harry just had such a good job of bringing on Zach and making Zack through. He was going to be making this move now. Zac wanted to take out John Zach. John Hide each other but they just didn't get along. He John Disregarded Zach little bit I would say I don't want to speak for them but I was like seek. This is going to work and at this point I was getting very. We haven't spoken about my relationship with Lily. Buck Lee John. We're getting very close that we're getting very close. And what I found was any five us John John as this kind of like analog for Sam Webb and the fact that it's this guy who doesn't know the game doesn't really feel like you would jive with me based on his perception of WHO. I am get along really well with Lee. Joan comes along on getting edged out of my relationship with a little bit and I'm like all this is bad like I did not want John. Around and Shawny had no love lost for John. Harry was happy to cut him based on his first season. No love lost like they like each other. But how do whatever and I was like say. This is all coming along. We just need one. Vote Sean this is going to be running team isn't it? Yeah I think the news saying that. Maybe Sean was more flip floppy in voting for you guys because I think that the way that it looked on screen was like this is why it's so hard to pin down. Shawny as it's like she can be Iraq go because she's not to also could be an athlete unlike guest illiterate of best friends. So it's percents. It made it look like you were for the needed Zach. But a full Sean. If the three and shot like in any of the game is going to be one hundred percent Sean is look. I Love Sean. Like I think that she was extremely great to me out there in terms of like what she provided me personally. She felt like home. We got along so well she would ask you questions about your life. I felt connected to her. I was very impressed with a game. I had told her that. On many occasions I was happy to be. I was stoked tribe with all these great things but we'll became very clear from the very first vote. Is that sean is a self preservation EST and this time I was not playing self-preservation as game I was playing a semi people Rutta. Let's do it now. I can't expect everyone else. Apply the way that I wanNA play. But I was kind of in falsely I was putting the values that I was pricing on Sean and accept expecting her to place them back on me. She doesn't want me that she doesn't an anything she doesn't know me. I have never met her. Except for five minutes finale like so I was expecting so much more out of Sean than I was actually getting and I remember coming back from playing and telling my wife like yet like Sean was great like we got along really well. Obviously I'm pissed off that she kind of blindsided harrowingly cut me at the end blah blah. You know but I would like over the coming months of science do like a bit of an audit and I was like when exactly was sean with me like what we which is shared with me like unlike when you actually go back and look like. Shaan was like very very rarely actually with me in trouble council and that is where it matters like that is when rubber hits the road and like you find out who is review and like Zach voted with me more than Sean did like like any kind of a didn't drop for me for a very long time because at this point the only thing that she had done. That was sketchy was in that first. Vote and she blamed Henry Black and blue for that. And I put that down to just the first jitters and that she had reputation and I kind of gave her way too much latitude and way. Too length of row in my estimation and I think kind of blind blinded myself as to how much shawn was actually going to commit to me and I knew that we had this thing with me. Her Linear and and Harry which I still believe to this day. Good of legit carried through had we not swapped but Shawn was always looking to just survive and she just made promises to everyone. And anyone like you'll never find shawny making promised to someone that she doesn't have to you. Never find me making Roma someone that I feel like I have to whereas I felt like Sean was literally just a promise from Sean was not worth the paper. It was written on like that sucks because like I love shown the way she plays and stuff but man. It's like really like upsetting when you can think of that. How much screwed me at nearly every vote? Yeah even when she was voting with you. It seems like there was extenuating circumstances. I would have thought she was most with you to vote with you at the last tribal council against Henry. But you're saying that like maybe she was scared. Wanted to ensure an idol was later and then this void. You know she works Zach. And we'll talk about that but like from what I've heard it was because I talked to Sean but from what I've heard it was because she was scared of getting votes itself to exile. So it's like even when she was fighting with you. It wasn't really about. You would some her up. She skittish and she's a self preservation as those the dish with the Dutch so basically like what happened he is. We had this beautiful plan and these are people that I would have written with like. Okay I have the majority now me Shawnee and Harry in alliance with Zach and Shaun beautiful and guaranteed a couple of people who still got lydia sweet like love that I'm down for that. One MILLION PERCENT. But Sean wasn't and this is the only time I will say that. The editing screwed me this season because the way it was presented. Is that Harry and Shawnee dual this work. We get Zack. On Board we get Shaan on board and then at the last minute for fun. Decide that sack. Why on Earth would I do that? Like that is so not what I was trying to achieve in this group like. I was trying to nyc solid inroads with Harry Shawnee and Sean and like whoever else wanted to come along for the ride and he had an unlock the majority. We finally get to break up this thing. We saved Shawny like while John. Old People get scared John which frees up Lee more would have been pissed targeted his friend but like you would have had nowhere else to go so like. I just like the eight just spoke my mind but in casinos. Not Clear on what exactly happened. I think it was like thirty minutes before travelling on the number comparable to what it was like thirty minutes before. Travel Sean pulls out of the plan she tells Harry I'm not doing it. I mean I'm not doing nobody. Why did you know idea? You don't WanNa you don't WanNa do. It had been basically selling us a bill of goods for two days for no reason now. I'm glad that she didn't just not do it. At Travel Council like. I'm glad that she actually told us. So there's one taken the pro sean box but like she just she's pulled out and I'm like well now. What are we supposed to do now? We've got four votes versus five. That's nothing if we vote for John West screwed with the majority. We LOSE OUT. Hold the majority and lease going to be pissed. Lydia IS GONNA BE PISSED. We've got nothing to show for and like Shawny still going to go home and I said Dude we as Harriet pulled out of that planning and I was like yeah. I'm pulling out to like let's forget and I said the only thing that we can do now unfortunately is we have to throw his onto the bus. We have to Zach came up with a plan. It's perfect we can put his fingerprints all over. John had stuffed up at the challenge. And that kind of gives him plausible reason as to why he targeted him. He wants to make a move. Let's throw another bus so I had like thirty minutes to go into absolute hot to drive trying to convince everyone to vote out Zack. And that is what they they missed it. They missed out that key. Middle Chunk and it just looks like. I decided to go salko Zach reason. And why don't you think they didn't show that? Do you have any theories definitely well. I think that you are like a sneaky playoff so they can kind of just like make it that you are doing a different plan for the sake of it for snake reasons. I think that it would have. It would have given it all away. Like how boring is that? How boring the plan is off. Easy vote on Shawny. Nothing is happening like during the audience. Easiest I like. It's predictable and it's boring. They they didn't want to show the story so became the full the full guy because because otherwise they show Sean before tribal council telling the exact audience. Who's going home? Like why? And directing any is to protect Sean because she goes so far no the it was terrible to sharp located. I think it was more just like they. Don't WanNa tell the audience. What's going to happen before council inexact terms with Sean telling them that she pulled out. Okay we'll look at. That makes way more sense. My thought was always like shampoos out of so many plans later on that that they couldn't have that many that in this one there was an easy full. God for me to take and just kind of make Sean look like she pulls out of every single vote. Like that's kind of how I was thinking. That doesn't know how to deal with Sean. Like I feel like the game is so there was shot. Yeah that's true but in terms of the ended like it's us as I said you cannot down John. It's multifaceted solve playing. It's slow all over the place. It's impossible to pin down into prime time so I think that they just try and make an easier store like the easiest story. Is Nick Screwed? Up The plan. Because he's a snake we get it. No one is checking twitter. Stupid vans off with the broader audience is in checking to be like well. Let's get to the bottom of this. It's something that makes more sense of. I was taught audience but Australia has nothing to have sean dictate what's going to happen before. Travel Council. The crazy thing is that Sean knew it was the right thing to do. She gives a confessional that makes the wish she's like Abbie is making old taking all the calling the shots on the next to go because on the next week is female like I wanna work with nick like she literally spells out all the reasons why she should do a dozen actually commit to and I wonder if like she told me about the plan and let Lydia told her out of it. Maybe I'm not sure it did make you look a little crazy though of up if I was watching it'd be like a youth real. You spend what are you doing like there is a good plan here? That sucks because it looks like I let my my alliance down like especially it wouldn't have made a difference anyway. Let's be real because of the twist sucks nonetheless. Well also because the votes during come out in the same way could Sweden ever see the verdict right because it's exile and it was like John was the one who voted Zach. Something like that like it. Looks like it's the raw schools and Sean pulled out because you were crazy and voted the way he said he would. And you guys just screwed up the plan because they don't show the votes they don't show at. Harry also voted for Shawny. Would've showing that. This was not as the story tall but we never got to see the vote. Yes so loud belief going into that and this is way more accurate than the example I gave before about maybe Sean flips. Because of Henry's rock thing I I don't know that's just a wild goose chase theory in my head but I'm fairly certain that at this tribal everyone was voting for Shawny except Joe. Even John Zach voted for John and myself and Shawny. We're going to vote or Zach. Because I refuse. I refused to to bend to their will. If this was David Bloomberg he would say that. I wasn't flexible. I wasn't I was. I was not flexible in this. I just refused to tell me who to vote for. Like if it's not going to make a difference anyway like I would rather show people that I'm true to my word that like with the people I lock and I want to work with. It's like I didn't just throw shunning under the bus because I had to so I was. I was like Nah. I'm not doing that. I will vote for who comes with me and I was trying to throw him under the bus at tribal council then when the when it's revealed that is going to be the next vote. Get I saw Sean Penny and Sean then votes Zach to make sure that she doesn't become the second person like I truly believe that. And I can't remember. She got up at this travel when untold media but there was definitely one where like someone leant over and kind of like went and kind of got out of their chair. And I'm not quite sure. But she voted Zack. In this instance not because she was like following through on my plan but it was more like low. Throw another vote on Zack. In case I'm the second person who goes perfectly typifies. Shawn's game like self-preservation she got skittish which is self preservation and in the meantime by actually doing it optically. It looks like she's working with me. And this is the perfect Typifies like the way that Sean played that game together so just to clarify. I thought it was you think I used to think it was. John was a five two three two one. And the three we you and Shawnee and Sean yes the way the episode makes it look you would have thought it was the three rascals this. Yes because Harry Nonvoting. Shawny is not at all. Doesn't it all makes sense? So that and then John Still works for Shawnee so yeah I think that it just it. Try to make it try to fit the narrative into a little bit of a box by people changing their minds at tribal because of the twists and everything like e copy fit as neatly into a bit made it. Look like Sean. Who because of you and not your plan was based on her repayment. A chicken egg thing. I think that that Harry voting for Sean. I told him not to do that. I think you actually come up to you. Remember how I said. We would always kind of like the last two people that spoke. We speak to each other last. Count me. He said Dude. The Zach thing is not happening we just need to cut bait and vote for Shawny. I said man. I'm not doing that like I'm just not so you can just know that if we are in the situation in the future cutting on you and I would expect to you not to do the same to me and I was trying to say to. Harry like don't do this. We can just even if we are in the minority but I think he was thinking Nick Ashani than at least. He's kind of more ingratiated than I am. So sorry it kind of annoyed me that he didn't vote that he voted for. Sean ain't got like it is what it is. I think that also kind of sums up. Maybe what happened with the advantage later on and this is nothing against Harry like He. He deserves to do whatever it is the right thing for his game but it kind of seems like with push comes to shove like he does believe in one more day in the game and I believe that too but like I just feel like the way I played this time was not that I played that last one more day one more day just one more day and this time I was like. I'm going to go down with the sinking ship and I will never forget the way that peak conti an AK don't with being swapped over into the minority and season two. They didn't vote for each other. They still pushed on even though they knew they were in the minority. And I've never forgot that I've never forgot that and I just was like okay down the Shawnee sinking ship on it month. Like we made it fifteen days if I get verdict because this one and that's probably a bad move but that's the move I decided to make and I'm very happy with it. Yeah you were very much committed to seeking with twitter saves. We'll see it an event with phoebe but would not allow these women to be protected and to not be loyal to them. So I I just I just like like there's got to be someone in the game that you just will not screw over. I'm a firm believer of that and I didn't find anyone that wanted to do that with the first time and maybe I was kind of course correcting this time but I just those people that are just was not willing to screw over and screaming of well. We're GONNA have to get to the flaw three hours into this. Podcast is anything from the crease. Wealth that we have not covered. Somehow I think was really a couple of really funny moments that like just like hijinks that the the Roscoe's go up to that kind of like I always thought was so much fun like there was a reason why they would like the highlight of my experience and there was just so many fun things that we did and I wish we got to play the game longer. And I'm so glad that Harry and Sean he did get to play the game together and did get to go to the merge etc but it was just like we always share knowledge of hunting for idols that we could share that Info. Harry stole some sprinkles from the US cream reward. That was a really cool thing that we did Which was Super Fun? We came up with this idea of based on Surviving Zealand. Where like an auto was the direction to an auto was found by some some rocks pointing an error so when Henry Anzac would searching for an auto I we went out and we arranged these coconuts into an error and another coconut. It'd BE X. And then we kind of like put on a very clear path where we knew that they were coming and we like scampered off and then we came back and they will like frantically searching in that area. And then the headlight. We realized we saw that. They had like kicked all the coconuts. The side and like it didn't do anything except throw them off the scent for a place where we knew that there was no odd because Johnny had the but like it was just like a funny like. We're just like a fun thing that was. You can't underestimate the power of just having fun out there and so on so grateful for that experience it was just. It was just brilliant. Brilliant and like the not of the coffee reward when we won the coffee when we will all going through and reading so we won. The reward will reading through tribal life magazine. It was just really funny. How we were like afterwards. We kind of like went to the magazine and I remember I was sitting there and we will try to like. We thought there was like an auto clue like some sweet some. Dan Brand Davinci Code. We like if we like poke holes through the Front Lucy letters and the letters that coke through the whole like spell out words as to where the Ollie's and we will like you know like wanted to rip the pots thought that was a clue hidden in the spawn of the magazine. And then on Shan's page. Because she did the POOP. Ottawa said Long drug throttle like. Oh what if we like going with like a big drop and there'll be an odd. It was just so funny like it was just like anything to fill the time. And like it's just just the best like my time. At pre swap Mukunda was one of my favorite times in my saviour experience. I've probably been unlike six different. Iterations OF TRIBES is probably my second favorite time simply because of the people that I was reading and I really loved everyone on that trump. I really did and now quick break to hear from our sponsors. We are back all right so we get to US so far. You got you guys wanted granular. I'm giving you granular. Yes I will never ever leave the studio. I think we are done anyway. All right so those on the exiles with which we calling the late to the swap. Twist is you get Johnny Back With You. Also get back. You just voted to exile so sweet. Yeah I was I was. I was just mad in general that day. Already luck just annoyed. I was annoyed that there was the exiled twist I was annoyed. I was this is where Lydia Lydia's Sean Myself. And Harry thing really was solidified like this was the was the decision the flown crunch point. The commitment was made so that kind of made me feel a little bit. But like I was just like I went to a confessional the morning of the tribes and I just felt like something was going to happen and I was like. Oh this is annoying me like I don't want to be here anymore and I'm like a naked early. You know how bad it's about to get like enjoy minute with this group of people who genuinely really did did lock but yeah I just saw the exalt. We'll get there. We dropped dropped up when you use dropbox thought okay. This is the shot in the arm. Lie Try my thing. Needs is like a really. WanNa be with Harry luck wherever I go. I need to be with Harry. That was my first thing and the second thing was I would like to be wherever sean and Leah and wherever broken I like because I was still the two people that I was just like really desperate to get to and I didn't get Harry. I didn't I DIDN'T GET AKA. I still had Shannon Lee so that was good but then when I saw who else was pulling the green buffs old year old had. I've got one. Oh dear like and it just I was reputable and then Harry Shiny and Zach walked in it and I saw the challenge was set up for like a tug of war and I was like if this is lying. This is not good but I was like. Surely it's not and then when they said. Oh they've out into the animals like. Aw Yes glimmer of like shoney's GonNa come back. Even if Zach comes back. It's the worst thing I've got Shawny End Zach like that's brilliant and didn't get shorty and I just go back and I was not happy. I was not happy and when they said Zakia join this one. Join in that one like you can't be like well hold on a fucking second like. How did you decide that like? You can't just say that because then it's like oh you didn't back did you. They they said that it was because it was evening guys and gals out kind of thing but it was too. It's an uneven number. Like Obama had ten. We had known like it just felt sorry. Not The right look. The short voted on west of a twist in the newly named Pugsley Award. So yeah really. Yeah I think also some. He's so many things to criticize. Well I mean just to the swap literally. Nothing did finish that this kind of religion with me at the moment easily inside so should have been done. Zach is that like Zach and I just could never get on the same page and when we finally wanted to get on the same page. Sean stuffed it up and then it was kind of like crap. What am I going to do like and it just kind of like just felt so out of the loop every single time like and you know what? I should have done a better job. I will put my head up and say that lies Zach Management. Not even managing my Zach. Alliance building was not as good as it could be like Zach is not what you think. He's not a big his head but he's not like he's actually like super funny. He's Goofy we like a son cartoons like paintball and stuff like he likes birds. Dancing is a kid like you know these are fun. Things like you can talk to him for ages. But like in terms of like talking to things that he's really interested in like the gene and like paint bull and Lark. That kind of stuff like that eventually ran out of things to talk about like Maya is there but like eighties is slim margin. And like if you try and stretch my brought us out across like twenty eight days like I'm fallen flat ten like so I just I just felt like I didn't have enough stuff to talk to him about like. There's only so many times you can talk to about like our page. You really didn't long page. Did you like that runs out after a day? Three three with that. But I used to be like twist like page is GonNa pop out of the bourgeois and then walks in Dave who is like a social butterfly knows exactly what buttons to push with Zach. He's a fresh piece of made he told Zach. Zach wants to be talked to and I was just like I am so screwed. Yeah okay another relationship on this talk about Sean and Mo who have an outside of the game friendship. That is quite strong and the reason that I ask about it is because I know something about going in and then the first vote which will get to you trying to get sean to vote them. Oh so how did that impact the dynamics yeah so I was open to working with anyone like it? If the numbers stacked up I would work with anyone like. I'M NOT DISCRIMINATING. I will like just just come to me like I'm there but it needs to make sense and there's just every way ice last and I can run numbers there and like lockdown. I'd sit there on the beach waiting at challenge and run the numbers. And I'm like there's no way that I lost this. Where may mode and Dave progress forward in the same collection and this was my initial thought and it was confirmed for me after like the first few votes first few days or whatever so I needed to get out one of the other two. I thought I could make father with one of them but not both like if most gone. It frees up Jackie because dive doesn't allow Jackie. Jackie doesn't really law day. But like I like Jackie. Jackie lights me. And Jessie like Sean. Sean Likes Jackie. Like cool. Like now Jackie's one of those like Kool moe needs to go or if Dave goes it frees up Zac back again in the picture. Freeze of Phoebe and the pitcher like Tarzan was still connected to mobile. A one of them had to go and I knew that it was going to be a total loss to get out Dave but my first order of business was to check in with Shaun Ley and Shannon Lee will like happened. This guy said look. You guys are my three to the end again. Everyone else in the game nowhere else exists on with you guys like and we affirmed that to each other and I thought that was good but Mohan. Shawn's relationship records me pause for concern and I said how do you feel about getting rid of mine? And she said I didn't care I'll get rid of my like from the outside. It would be good if we could keep her and work with but like she has to go. She has to go and I was like. I don't believe that but we'll put a pin in there and I said Whoa. Okay I want to get rid of Dave Anyway. Let's get today of Dave and Sean was on board and I don't know whether she was on board because she really wanted to get out dave or because she just didn't want to get out Milana in my kind of like in the ensuing months thought that her desire to get out Dave enough. I was probably more to keep Mos- name of the chopping block because we know she does. WanNa work with Davis. Will phoebe complicated things. It wasn't so much about Moulana and Shawn's relationship. It was just that phoebe refused to vote for Dave. And Sean wants to divide out Dave and I said guys. I want to work with both of you. That's get embroiled flip a coin like I won't both of them gone so quickly make their head spin when just flip a coin? Whoever goes I'm good for the next one will be next but phoebe would not budge. And I'm like feeling we need to be a little bit more. Also we need to be a little bit more accommodating to try and build a relationship to make sure that me you Li Shan are the kind of nexus of this tribe because if not someone else is going to be on the other tribe and they just they just couldn't see and I kind of look. Moana makes the most sense to get rid of her. Let's just get on a first okay because everyone knows. Dave's crazy person if it makes me happy let's just get rid of mode and that just didn't sit well with Sean. I sorta think that it would have saved. You would save. You just need to wrap. But I don't think what about you the Palo. Because taking out dave okay but then then they have the remote and it is. Sean doing that like at any stage. Mo has three and Sean Lee like that's going to be the majority no matter which way you slice it like. I don't. I don't know if I believe that China would have turned on Mojo and I agree with you. I agree with you that like would. She have turned on her. Probably not and and this is why I was in such a bad position like I was in such a bad position on that swap. Like the headline of the swamp is not rudge's screwed right Because he was screwed. The hottest out of anyone. I've maintained that to the like he got royally screwed. But Man I go pretty screwed to me go screwed like the big winners in the swap were shiny and Moana. Jackie and I was like yeah. That's they're the ones who want out of this whole thing and I'm glad that shunning one out but I would have liked one so while the reason why I wanted Dave gone is because we've just seen his season he's going to cause the most amount of chaos. Milan literally sat in the shelter. The entire time and did not move so you could at least predict kind of what she was going to do to a degree. I've just a crazy person. Davies a crazy crazy crazy person so. I want to go on for the immediate but I knew that for the long term what would get me the Powell would be Milana going. And that's why I eventually settled on the idea of like Milana because like I can withstand days craziness in the short term if it means like my group has control. But it just never going to happen. There was no way I was getting out of that. That that trump swap alive the fact that I lasted all those. Those two weeks is a miracle in itself and the fact that there was a miracle that could have saved. Me and got me to nudge is a miracle in itself. Because there's just it was just so much working against me. Yeah I mean I think in a world that's majority like if Sean Has Lee and is and she connected with a real life friend who has two people like it's a numbers game and those are the numbers and you're on them so that's a really hot. I WANNA get Dora's box but before I do need to ask on the general tone of the tribe this where it's felt a little unfunny. This is where we've heard. It was kind of toxic like you have any comments. On that MoD post swap experience was the worst experience I've had on any sort of lava tribe that's worth one hundred percent one hundred and fifty percent like early days of the like still fun great characters friends for lives and Abu Great dealing with Sam Weber the merge know Crepe but still I made the merger of some fun stuff. The jury like this was without a doubt my least favorite experience. I hated every not every minute. That's an exaggeration. I hated chunks of every day and it was because the people that I was with it was the position that I was in. It was the fact that all my friends were on the other tribe literally all of them were there and they will in control and having a gay. Oh time and lack and I'm like wildfire. I was feeling so and I was like no. No be grateful. You idiot like you still here in the game you gotta leave. Got Sean got phoebe. This is great go. Pandora's box suck it up princess. You got this but it was like it was very tough. The talk of the tribe shifted dramatically with Moana and toz and Dave and Jackie adjust altered everything extreme toxicity between Milan. And now Moana will say that. It's just beside phoebe. Who said it was just WanNa Saad? Like I'd like to say that they will both complicit in that they were both not great to each other. I do not subscribe to the word bullying being used and civil because they've made it three season without using the word we can make it through does using the B Word. You'd want experience that needs to be one and maybe would talk about sure and like and it is subjective but from our perspective. It was just people that did not get along would never get along. They had been too much division in the game. That had been so much toxicity on block that we had heard about now had kind of spilled into our little what we dealing. We'd like crazy Henry. Oh no not muscles like what we were dealing with on Makuta. Originally it was nothing compared to like the level of ingrained hatred. That was there between the people like I just. It was so clear cut and the moment they arrived spilled everything about the other tribe. Spilled the tea like unlock talking straight away. She was like they said this. That the other terrible because of this but the other and she then she tried to come up to me and tell me Brooke and were bashing me and saying that I'm like lack a complete lie blah blah blah Blah Blah and using woods. That like I would never use and like have not used and like she was just like on and to try and kind of like. Do I believe that Brooklyn in this context of the game. We're like on Knicks snake. Don't WanNa work with him and all that absolutely like I was saying the same thing but like she was like saying. Oh yeah they're talking about how you all the worst person ever and you're GonNa you're gonNA vote on Europe. They're going to vote you and all this kind of stuff and like yours completes night. No-one Trust Niki. If you guys seem like she was talking about that then she comes up and I was like. Oh God maybe there are saying that. Like WanNa doesn't lie so then boy pulled me aside and goes nick. I love the way you played season. One you played a loyal game a trustworthy and honest game. I want to move forward and people that are honest. Who Don't get sucked into the crazy villainous of survivor like I wanna work with you to the end and I was like She has no idea who I am. She what she's never seen one clearly like either that or like she's got some sort of Amnesia and it's like you're lying to me right now in this exact moment that you're talking to me everything you've just said in the last five minutes is allies will and that's okay. Everyone should be able to live but like she was just so adamant that what had happened on volume was like Antanas will like that day. Would just these all full rude? Like lucky and lucky can be a rude abrasive child. We all know this and I have no personal connection to lucky whatever so that could be true but they will like just the way. They spoke about their experience. Some bucknell like mainly and Sean look at other and be like Oh my God. Like what like. Maybe they were being treated pulling the negative Phoebe side and it was just like. Oh my God it was like it was awful so glad that I pulled that Green Buffalo on the first day because he was like. Yeah this is awful. It was awful and then I come to Makuto. And they're like Oh. This is the best we've got adult conversation. He no one's being ema chula like everyone's life just and then just I thought that was just so swell and in my head. I'm like laugh. Is the exact opposite of swell right now. Yeah I mean why Phoebe and Mo- seemed to be the central cities that they both did bad. That things like we never got to see any of that. I travel or eliminate that earner did bad things just implicit in the relationship. I just think though both complicit in not liking each other and that's really fun like it's like they didn't have to like each other like one it doesn't have to phoebe. Phoebe doesn't have to live in one now. They both have to treat each other with respect. Like I personally didn't love Milana like I didn't like she's not my cup of tea but I always treated her with respect out there like because she is a player in a game that I'm playing with and this is survivor and you just don't treat people that way so I don't think that they should have ostracized each other. I don't think that he should have snapped at one. And everything that wanted should have been snarky back and and this is coming from me who got into like seventeen thousand season one. So who am I liked? Judge them on like what they shouldn't shouldn't do that openly sniping at each other IOS Pretty Oakland. Yeah Yeah because we. We didn't see any of that and then when they go much more. Sarp tissue supplies other word much more life. Yeah Watch we'll start tissues about it like like you'd have to Kitchen Lincoln and you'd miss it. Whereas like phoebe was a lot more. She kind of a struggling to control those impulses a little bit. And then you add Jackie in the mix who is like a irritant from hell sometimes when you'll like trying to do daily tasks because she just means so well. I Love Jackie. I Love Jackie so much. I think she's just the sweetest heart and she's just like pure and like needs to be preserved it'll cost. She can be super annoying and then like she would annoy Phoebe and then she would like mess with the Ross. That Sean was making Sean was like Oh my God and then Milana would like under breath. Say something about Jackie. She's like you guys have walked into our Canon. Tarzan would like philosophize about something. And she'll go. You've bought such bad Mojo into our camp and like no one else like people saw but look for the people they just. Kinda let it happen and died was like of course he was like. Oh this is the best considering. They're like open five happening and we're not seeing any of that on the screen to eventual. Travel way she goes home a minute so ugly. Why does he didn't share that? You think if impossible capture that Energy Indiana yes. I feel like I feel like they want to go. Very good edit. I feel like it's not nice to watch anyone on someone like either way like it's not nice to watch feeding not enjoy being in one company. It's not so much like Jackie in that. Say How awful the company I sat there and got a front row seat to and I was like this sucks. Why would anyone want to watch this on TV so I understand them not doing that but I think maybe the show kind of cost corrected a little bit too much in? The auction is a prime example of that and the way that the WanNa was completely protected from that experience and the decisions that she night while Phoebe was hung out to dry up as we've already said just for the sake of storytelling. I guess some people get hung out to dry which socks. I don't blame the show for all diving into the disagreements because I want to watch that like I like watching reality. Tv when there's big funny thoughts like a real house where it's just like crazy then. It's just like two seconds later. They like having drinking and laughing and that stuff funny to me because like it's funny like they laugh about it but when it's like kinda sucks like it's not outwardly. Awful it's just like this Mo- Joe is awful. With any instances you think they should have shown like that would have been really putting into the military just for like two ugly nothing about any specific instances but like look like the Moana thing obviously like you might have seen on social media. She's put out there. Oh this one from the premed shoes you know like having a bit of a tantrum literally have never commented publicly about personal things. I have done to two things online at the about one game play and one of them was about how she tried to change the narrative after the vote where. Phoebe may fire where she said something that she was trying to save me and I was like trying to save me and I kind of said no thanks. Moana like this is kind of what happened and I did like a quick little thing on instant story and then she kind of locked and then after that. I tweeted during the finale. If Moana thinks that she would have beat David. Lynch if you if you guys think that Milano would have beat Dave at the end you need your head read because he would have walked the floor with both of them and then because of that she then kind of said a went onto social media and said that there's a player from the preen. You didn't make the merge she's like having a go at me online he played for the wrong reasons not quite sure. There's reasons on I've been a fan of my life now. You know what about survivor? That was in it for fame and follows if anyone knows how much I hate the idea of being famous and the social media world whilst fund is a vapid toxic wasteland that I also think is ridiculous and that was fine considering how much she's talking about how many followers she had and how people send their free things and things and then she also went on to say that. I'm still on still talking about survivor. And it's like that was during the finale book and then went on to say that she. Hey join me for an instagram live. Tonight we'd toss aunts talk about survivor. It's like one of these things is not but then also the she's talking about allegations of cheating with people pre gaming. This wasn't about me. She's just talking about this online yet. She talks about positive vibes. And they're just receipts at other things she's done. It's just like look. Don't WanNa get into slinging match but just I can't handle the sanctimony like I played season when we're speaking about this book us and it's like. I Love Sam now like we're good but like the sanctimony during the season was too much for me. I didn't think I'd have to deal with that on all star because saying that all people were cheating pre gaming whoever it is that you're talking about like their receipts their Receipts Moana. People many receipts that. You don't need a bit so let's just chill it on that one but I don't know I just feel like your question is about. What could they have shown? I feel like. She was very protected. By the edit. She is a good player. Like I'm happy to say that she had a stranglehold on Makuta and she appealed to the people that she liked. She had a loyal alliance. These are all amazing things which I was not able to do in that game and I applaud her for that. I applaud her for voting for Sean at the end. Because you should be out of there for whoever the hell you want to work and not have to explain it to anyone. She was underestimated. I certainly underestimated her. All these positives. How ever there are things that she didn't do an- I'm only talking about social game stuff here. There's no personal. None of this stuff is personal. This is all about the game. We comment on the game. And why should she be exempt? She literally never asked me anything about my life. In two weeks she would talk. I could tell you all have brothers and sisters names I can tell you all about Vinnie and her struggles. I tell you about her football career. What each and every one of their tattoos museum favorite artist is it Salvador. Dali by the way I could tell you about her father and what happened to her and the story behind the Tattoo of her father. I could tell you about autobiography blogger from sorry. I could tell you about where she got. The name of the bog refused from. I could tell you about favorite coffee and their favorite coffee machine. I can tell you about her first job. I could tell you about traffic company like all these things. One wouldn't tell you anything about me because she never asked. She doesn't have to ask but she can't expect people to then think that she played a good social game. She talked to the people she liked and she froze everyone else out. She literally came up to me. I had this tiffany and this story is important to tell me one day off to go into too. I just don't get one. Alana is not talking to me like I. Just don't get it like I look. I know I voted for this has been happening. Since the day I met her. She will have very few have nothing to say. It's not because she's an introvert. My wife I believe. She says she's an introvert. My students many of them. Introverts most of my friends introverts like I love that. I have introvert qualities as well. It's not about that. It's about like when people go. Why should she small women small? She's not just wow thank you. She doesn't smile like like it's just about like you have to know you have to be care about asking people other things. She sat down next to me. Aside this confessional. And I thought I'm going to give it another red hook and I went and sat in the shelter said so minor asset. So tell me about like. Do you have a pet in a surreal? These questions. She answered them. She didn't answer anything back. And after about fifty minutes. I said you know I can't be bothered anymore. And just sat there in silence and the producer interviewed me. Look to me and went. Wow like she's really giving you nothing. She must have realized it was all she gets up and goes is two weeks after knowing me she says you got like a son or something like Mwana like we're playing a social game if you expect me to vote for you at the end. If I get which I didn't good view you have to care about everyone other than just your so. She was like this dark cloud. Sometimes that would come and sit in the shelter and and she would be like rude to Jackie in like no fun. Lot Bantu way like when Jackie wasn't there and and and like you can't spin everything to being about like all day my minions. They're running from working and getting information like no everyone's playing their own game. They're all talking to people not to bring you information because they're talking to people. You can't change the narrative. E copy so sanctimonious and you can't have this dark cloud following you around from one tribe to the other and have many people say this about you still think you play good social game I will. She played grunge strategic game. But as I said the PODCAST is survive. It is not just a strategic game because if it was plays like would win every single tom there would be no such thing as challenges and there would be no such thing as the jury which is all about measuring your social club and I just. I don't like the idea that it's this that she all people are being mean to Milan. It's like I'm not saying she was being mean to anyone. I'm saying that like you have to be responsible for the energy that you bring into a room into a troub- and and I don't think that she is response. She takes ownership of that. And that's where my gripe is with Milano and it's not personal. It's a Game Greg because I'm sure she's lovely and amazing person does great things but in the game she feel bad. I feel like it's needed to be explained to the listeners. Because again it's being here from someone who was out there with. Dave feels differently as having spoken to him. But you're not the only one. I think he feels this way. And I think that it's something not also from anyone side in the editorial something we needed kind of put out there if you feel that way which is valid in and of itself like people left season. One Knicks ticket. He did this that they were able to go and say whatever they want they can. They can say why they felt that way and I have to own up because I did this. I did that. It can say whatever they want you just have to be responsible for the energy bring into the room or if you're not going to be responsible we have to do with the ramifications of that and that's all. I'll say on the from now we'll get to fan doors ball which was at the beginning of Jokela Kikoko through the experience of finding the advantage of thoughts on the advantage telling phoebe and and all of that. Yes superfund like this is probably my highlight of the game. Just because it was it was like playing giant game of who'd done it but like also like some scavenger Honda has ruled stakes in this risky thing. I really. I really loved a finding that key for the difficulty of what it was like. You had to find this teeny key. Someone else was going to do. You had to sneak into camp. You had to get it with no one seeing for an extra like we'll talk about that but like I'm so grateful for the Pandora's box thing I think it's such a cool idea for the show like like I love that that there are two keys and someone's going to get it. I ran off down really really fought like pasta. Well like almost as far as people usually go and I just had this sense that there was going to be. I had. That was the one area that I had not yet looked at for an idol. So I thought let me go and like look and see if there's anything there and after a bit of poking around when I found out man I was so pumped pumped to just find something and you see the little happy dance that I do and I just quickly and I talked it into my shoe and I walked off and I couldn't just walk straight paths Dave so I kind of like went back to where Dave was looking and pretended to look around him and I was like. Oh man is talks like and it's not how I wanted to spend my time getting to know you Some bonds but also just like doing the Saudi man like. I've got a new because it was fun to kind of needle Dave like but then when I went back found Phoebe and I was just like cool. This is the thing that's going to bring phoebe and altogether like TV friends from the rule. We don't see each other like anywhere near often. You would think that we're actual friends but like we played season one together. We never got a chance to actually play. I've thought sick. He has a chance to bring her in someone who will trust me. Someone who's good at the game and someone who will protect me and she was great she straight away. She didn't Mitsubishi Direct directed dive off which in hindsight really pissed off when she told him. What would you tell him? And I snuck straight back into camp and getting that my heart was pounding like town dean and it looks so calm the way. I'm doing it but like they were twenty meters away from me like and the fact that no one. Soli is incredibly insane to me like I added that happen. But the thing that wasn't shown is that. Sean actually found it with me so Schon was like just behind me and then I closed the law. I tried to lock you. Couldn't a lot of people awesome to to like he was reading so that he couldn't be locked again and bolt off with Sean and we go around the corner and I opened it up in front of her? And say it's an extrovert. Okay cool and then as we just as we like I opened it up. That's when we go stocked up back in my pants and we like run back in. Did some really good acting. I've thought like it was just so fun. It was just like one of those big kid moments. Where you like you know a secret. That the dramatic Arnie. Someone else doesn't just. It was epic. It was so good and like no one suspected that. I had which was so strange. Like everyone like had their own thoughts but most people thought it was. Sean and I told Lee probably like an a couple of hours later that I had it as well so he. He knew he was on the plan. So you would've told John. Anyway like wasn't just that she happened to be using that. Yes I was going to tell Sean as well because I want you to feel emboldened to stick with the three that it was actually a full so so that was what I told her. I wasn't even going to tell her whether she was there. Yeah so this is the episodes. You wouldn't keep crisis if you've talked about as a puzzle than abby is going on the other side so as you're watching this before you are having to go to tribal council like what are you are. The game. Is that when we walked away from that challenge having one on top of the world but like at these like posse isn't like the way she said it was like tomorrow kind of thing and I was like. Oh Wow. He doesn't know that she is screwed like she had. She had no idea that it was coming and I was like and that kind of made me concerned. Full Shawny Button. Look I love Audi but like I did get to the point. Where like untenable between us. And I'm glad that she only got to revenge so we're going to get to this four three two have spoken about. Obviously with Dave you in the to you get speedy goes to fire. What did you think was going to happen with the plan? Yeah again were probably Sean. This is one of the most confusing. This is the most confusing vote that I was a pot of. And of course because it's like a new tribe and stuff so what I was teaching was phoebe myself. Lee and Sean as the four as like the solid full and we were going to vote for Milana and Phoebe was convinced the device on board right now. I did not feel like he was onboard. He didn't do a very good job of making me feel like he was on board either and I was like okay. I don't know if this plan is getting traction. But let's just give it a well as the diaper progressed. It became clear that I was going to get some votes. So first of all I really bad feeling from Dave having a chat with Zach and Lee and I got the sense that he because he was being very cagey with me and like I will sit here and say that Dave is the best player. Who's ever pie destroying saliva? If not he's one of the best in the world I have very few quibbles with his game but the one thing I will say is that the both times. He voted for me this time and then when I went home he doesn't do a very good job of making. You feel comfortable. I think that he funneled so much of his time into the making sure. The plan goes ahead and making the people that he's working with feel like a million bucks that he kind of like. It's a bit of a blind spot now. It didn't really matter because there was not much I could do anyway so it didn't know enough. He's now but I would say if I had to be super critical like that was one of the things so Phoebe then tells me and John. I'm getting votes and I said okay. I can get votes. Harry told me to be a big boy in the face of knowing your company a couple of votes and I was like going to do my best Harry doing proud and just kind of like you know a couple of votes. It doesn't so we steam ahead with this idea that we're going to vote out Milano because I knew that Mwana was going to go for. Thebe that was confirmed to me from multiple people and I thought perfect we can get out Moana. Now on a plurality. We've got full of OATS. If we just like. Even a full might be enough like we can. I can use my extrovert or I can swings. You know we can swing someone else and as the dig- got on it became clear that it wasn't going to happen and then it became a matter of keeping my name out of as many people's off of the voting patrons so I went to Jackie. Jackie swore on her family. Or something crazy like that that she wasn't GonNa vote me. I'll I'll torture mommy of my brother and oh no. I don't want to vote for your love you to its and I was like sick. I love you Jackie. Let's do this for me. I'll never have a few awesome gray. So she go to Tarzan and I cited Tauzin a you get a really bad feeling that you're going to vote for me tonight. And he said Nick on I think you should have a bad feeling at all. I said okay. Does that mean you ready for me? He's like Neko promise. You on my word that I'm not voting flee you and I said Tasman. You are man of your word on taking that to the bank. I know I'm not getting from you and I was like wow did Tuzun. Just swear on camera own his word that he was not gonNa vote me sick. I'm not getting one from him. I'm not getting one from Jackie. I'M NOT GETTING FROM SEAN. Only or phoebe. I know that Mwana is voting for phoebe and they probably all the others are very Thebe. Anyway Zaken David. The only ones are going to vote for me on this acquisition from Israel. Because he's very easy to read. I can cop two votes to who is fine with me so I thought maybe we can still Jag. This with the plurality vote and still get out Milana so I go into trouble council thinking the other thing was. I wasn't too stressed because I knew with both tribes being there that that was going to be some sort of twist and that if the name did come up some sort of twists could kind of work that to my benefit so actually wasn't very stressed this not before I've been voted at a travel counsel like this to tell the tales exactly what I was trying to channel Harry the COM- you've been here before. Doubled tribal you got blindsided. But she got saved. You'll be fine ache like you can call heat from Dave and like if you don't show weakness in the face of Dave targeting you and it was really important to me. I didn't like freak out because I didn't want to. I thought that I was going to survive and I don't want to be the person who if their name comes up. They freak out that people kind of rely on kind of thing to keep a level head so I was trying to impress these new people as well when the vote comes out and I got three avoids I was livid I was livid I was little because I thought it was Lee first of all because Tarzan had promised Sean had promised she wasn't about me and I just didn't check in with me that day and I was like that Austin voted for me and dive was spewing. He was Oh my God like this show could never capture how spewing he was like he was like it was like radiating off like in a comic like stink lines like. I felt like I could've toasted marshmallows off the top of his head like he is not wanting to be taken lightly. He's does not want to be left out of the loop he doesn't want to be made to look full like he doesn't want to think that his blindside on nick is not coming true he felt like he just was so that was funny. That was a little silver lining so when phoebe window at the game when we come back to camp there was so much confusion about what occurred and I was like Shannon. Lee's sold down the river and I was so mad at them and so then they stop pedalling this idea to me that the reason why they voted for. Phoebe was because it was going to be me and the only way that I could save me was to vote for Phoebe. Now that doesn't make any sense for votes. Were winning works. Exactly Right Sean Spicer. Who's the morning I know this now like I knew this pretty much off to that but like I was just like? I didn't know how to explain to them that that doesn't make any sense. Like I didn't want to push too because I had literally. No one like at least these people are pretending to let me the others just like literally saying that. They don't WanNa work with me and I was like the guys like if look at the way the votes befalling. I was willing to accept two votes. If you just voted for Mwana like she would have gone to be honest. She probably would have beaten come back anyway. With the file he hadn't picked up the flint. I can tell you that much before at this point. Which is fats so look? I don't think that my game was one on lost at this. I really. It's the next one where everything kind of turns to tends to pooh-poohed but this one was definitely interesting because it really everyone came off. Lich not want what was fascinating about this. Is that nobody one. Everybody lost phoebe. Lost Dave I lost the trust of Shaun Ley Lean. Sean created a schism between myself and definitely with phoebe. Lean fees. Relationship was like in tatters. Moana her thing didn't work Tarzan. I had called him out at tribal council swearing his lawful. Whatever it was and he was he later on came to me is when I wasn't voting. You shouldn't be worried because when I voted for unique. It was a vote of confidence. When I'm getting flagged getting flashbacks what you said in season two and this is not gonna fly with me so everyone was spewing. Not Say he's become aware basically that not only bullets. That's like shooting someone and being like I just shot you for your good. He just in Tarzan's walked still a sophoclean minded why of approaching the game where he has his own litmus test for what is loyal and what is not. There's no way you could ever convince him that. That's not doesn't make sense. And that's why Tauzin is near impossible to play with and I figured out the way to do it. I have no idea how but Tarzan is a very difficult person to play with and I push back significantly on Dave's comment that you need the Tarzans to leave the game open for players like him. It's like Oh that's nice for you to say look like what about the fact that like there are other players in the game and like it's for the viewers. It's not interesting when everyone is not working at maximum capacity. Anyway that's changed. I've made the same the same rant all lines. Of course I but the the last point about that tribal council is afterwards. Is Afterwards we get home and Phoebe and Dave have this massive concession on the beach at night in the dark and I go over there and I sit down and I literally like Dave literally. No hard feelings do not care. You voted for me man. I cop twenty one boats my season no sweat off in the first time and I'm super proud. I lasted this long and I was like. I'm fine I'm not coming to you and I was just not placating him as much as possible and I was like if you WanNa work together. I'm having to work together. I wasn't I was targeting but I was like whatever you want like. I'm happy to do but like I don't think it's coming from me. And then and then he shows me the fake auto shows me. The FICO was like let's do something Blah Blah and then he like Zach. Was there for a bit and like it. Was this big long conversations. I want to go to bed this off. Arnie. I know it's funny. He knows it's funny but like feeding was sitting there and she was just like this is so good. Roll back on the same page like my friends working together. It's going to be great in my head. I'm like Phoebe you uh screwed like you might be more screwed than I am and I'm screwed. It was really strange. It was a really strange post trouble. Well how does confidence had you had going into council that Leeann Sean would vote your way? Fifty fifty yeah pretty pretty pretty confident. Probably more like seventy thirty. I was pretty confident that we're going to do it. Well Yeah so unfortunate. Phoebe been voted out and brought back in. Which you know a little something about the auction the next day which you've touched on in terms of the edit. It was a great moment for you to get your video with Christine employees. Must have anything from that. Yeah just just that. That is just like such. It's one of those moments that you hope for. I never on beating food. This is the second auction I've gone to. I've never wanted any food because I've always been on an advantage accidentally or on the video from harm but I liked the twist of luck doing it as a group thought it made gave it stakes of. What was fascinating is that I said when the view from home came up I was like please one hundred. And then everyone was like don't vote against Nique and like everyone on both sides saying that and I was like I have social capital still in this game like more on the other side but like Mat. Rogers was like this was He was like. Why should nick get? I've got kids and I was like man like I'm not telling anyone not to bid on it like anyone can build on it. Do not not bid for me. I've got a kid. Just got millions of kids like Milan has sister did but no one except like flick to kind of bump up the process. I thought that was really nice moment and can forever share that beautiful moment with Paloma and Christine and like hopefully lemme why I left her like you kind of just made everything feel really really good. Well that's a nice little little nice staying in the middle of where you calling your worst experience of tragedy with that the challenges and all that there were awards. Those are all great. It's literally the day to day drudgery of being at Camp with that group of people people find you know. Eat terms of the rewards and the challenges. You guys are winning. Lydia GOES AS WE'VE TALKED ABOUT. Nakas is one but she did lose via John. Ends up going and you win. The swimming challenged get cake. So do you have anything on that? Just like I was sad to see Ligo wanted to reconnect with her. And Sean really did because like I was running out of options. I was hoping that it was going to be like the twist was that the person would get sent to the tribal something like that like it probably would have disastrous anyway. But I was sad to see lead guy because I really do love leads. We added a secret lines. The Italian Stellian's the whole time which didn't really show up but like super fans out there that please don't be hauch like linear abby because they will like talking about strength all the time like that was just one component of the game and I left feeling really surprised and proud of the way they leave you play the game like a real survive apply and it just fit the narrative. Good only the we love Lydia. We love having John Going home was over. The moon that John went like could not be happier that he left just simply because it just meant that had. Let's options and I think that Jon players that I thought the experience meant more than John. Yeah so you John Legend winless win. This cake ruled that. That's going to be a lot. I'll just take the lead on that one a swimming and I was like I cannot believe that my crazy swimming like actually like everyone was blown away that like. I knew how to swim and it was funny because Jonathan was like it ain't pretty but it got the job done like did like and before I went out there. I practiced with my trainer like we did. We learned proper swim technique like prop Goud in the water. Like like we would. Tom and to get one hundred meters. Whatever it would take me like why too long and I said man. We need to shave some time off. I'm going to teach you swim. It's ugly like the wall of police. Safety swim kind of thing and I was like whatever it is and it was like half the time of my technique and I was like that is what we're doing on. Okay how crazy. I look on the island. That is what I'm going to and worked so that was cool so the cake reward. I was just. I didn't even consider that it was going to be the one time thing which sucks so bad luck. It's such it's such a crack thing to have to be a part of because like you just want to sit there and just eat as much as possible but obviously makes good TV. What really really cheese me off and you can see talking about toasting marshmallows of Dave's head. You can post like a bloody suckling pig off the top of mind when we were going through how we should enter the the shop and Dave's crazy but what about Tarzan like Tarzan can go. Why does Tozzi and get to go like Ooh like what like why we all pulling sticks except Tarzan like zero cents to me and I was the last straw but like hey how about the people who won the points get to go I would know? Would we each got seven minutes? I think it was plus. There was a time in between so it was like an hour and a half before I actually even longer. I think before I even got there. Everything had been destroyed. Everything was hot like it was the Fiji in son was on like the cream had turned we did. The milk was like to bring temperature. It was fair but God it was fun. It was way worse than what we saw like carnage like like it looked like. I was doing it. Gratuitously for the moment but it was like I had I was genuinely like I need to eat as much as I can plus. I'm pretty sure there's something in the cakes like I was just because they will all these like very like `Mushie cakes that'd be very easily be like an odd or like a scroll so I just wanted to put my hand through every inch better and just like every like everything needed to be completely decimated and I did think maybe it's one of the plates breath on now. They wouldn't do that again. That's what they did with notchers so I didn't even check the places like why would they do? The exact same thing is because they wanted people to fond cakes. These exactly like if it was in the cake would have been the same as the popcorn academy state. How many different things you do well. That's why I thought it was going to be. Scroll actually thought that toll g opened and then there was like a secret door underneath all like it's on the roof of the thing like I thought it was going to have two parts to it like an easy to find. Scroll with like this other thing. So that's kind of like was my full process of and it was. I literally like stood up on all of these cakes. My hands in the roof. I was like all around the side like and I saw them much cake in that time it was. I did a snow angel. Just because in Addis nothing out of then. Not Finding include my. Who did you suspect cat it? A suspected Milana because the way she was holding her bag when she came back but as we sat down and we were sitting there. Sorry as we sat down and we were sitting there phoebe now to me. I got sick and I was like super happy with that right. I mean maybe the cake the off gross warm cake was helpful because you go into that puzzle challenge that you end up winning. Even though Dave was trying to help out map that sends Matt Home On the other side. So these are the few wins in an uncomfortable spot on the drive definitely. Yeah definitely like I was pivotal in like a few immunity wins which also saved my skin. Because like I had an expiration date so I was glad that the three puzzles that were on the season in the pre merge. Were in this time when I really really needed them. As opposed to the pre swap puzzle was it was just it was so fun to do and and just watched it back a belief. How quickly my hands moving that? It looks like I was not doing anything but it was this weird thing where my mind was just kind of taking over and it was. Super Fun Super Fun to to see and it's nice. It's nice to have this like cool thing on your resume that like you. You're good at because I'm not good at a lot of the other physical white things. You have snacks away things. Do you have any major on that road just going on. I was very glad because I could tell from the other side that like he was the thorn in the cowry shunning. Broke Lucky Aka. I could tell that he him being there every day. He was threatened in the game and if I was if by some miracle US squeaked through to the merge. I didn't need him there because he would have just been another number for the people who are against me so I was sorta happy that he was gone. So let's get to this phoebe of her going home of using advantage. You don't have the numbers in Sean to a degree or Dave. Where did this all go? Wrong this to me is the tipping point of the game like potentially the whole game like this. This is the moment that obviously for my game and Phoebe it all goes wrong but like I think this is where the entire the die was cast. What was going to happen moving forward and he just sucks. It just sucks so bad. Why how it happened. So you know they're still on and that's a big number of people still think about it. It's been like two weeks. We're like still with nine. People at the tribe hasn't been getting any. Smaller dynamics are not shifting because Phoebe went out and then came back like it's stagnating and if anything it's just kind of ossified this really really negative for me like not negative in the environment like not good for me and it's just getting worse and worse every day and this was the point where we could have turned the whole thing upside down and and the fact that I believe that Phoebe was up like she will admit that like Did a complete number on it so phoebe had told me straightaway about the article. She told me about it before she told she tells Dave back at Camp. But she told me straightaway because she really did trust me. She was on probably more than me but for some reason she she told me. I and I said this is perfect. You and I are in so much trouble. She couldn't understand that she was in trouble. She thought that she'd repaired things with leash and Sean she had made she had dived. I've controlled Zach. Dave controlled toz. Answer you know. She thought she was fun. And I was like you are so much trouble like you need this auto like I said what is the clue I will help you fund it and I said Phoebe I swear to you. I swear to you on our spring chip on my life if I find that idol I will give it to you. I will walk straight over to you and give it to you. I said I will not even look for if you're not there. But to is for the two sets of is a better than a one set of Oz and she said look I would like to find it on my own and also we have time for this okay because she was really struggle. I believe she was one of the people who are struggling with this idea of head legacy with that. She had done so well in season. One things weren't working out for her and she was getting into a pretty like negative head space that we're all trying to take her out of and I was giving a tough love. I was giving friendly love. I was giving hugs giving literally every playable guy had like. She just wasn't snapping out of so. I thought you know what the thing that must never out of. It is if she finds herself. Okay she has. I promised unique that if I can't find I will bring you in on US said okay. Go for the date so she she tells Dave this thing day gives the same kind of like latitude. The difference is that every time I was like did you have the audit yet help and I would like. Oscar whispered to her and she'd be like top five to thank didn't do that. You're a need you to tell me this thing. We will find it and he just pressured and pressured and pressured and pressured and pressured. She caved and she just. She told him she trusted him completely. And just should have been more like I dunno as you should have been more ferocious about it and I just wasn't and that is the Marfo I guess but the suckiest thing this thing is that when she when I found out it was in a termite mound Shannon when I tell you I knew that I checked it every day for the first week of the game like if she had told me it was an attorney and I would have said come with me I would have grabbed her hand out of Walk District to I would have pointed to. I wouldn't even touched it. There's your auto and it just bothers me so much that like that. We could have flipped everything at that. Point the tricky part though is that even if she did find the auto she would've told and she probably wouldn't have thought that she needed to play. She was convinced that she had died. So for it to really have work I would have to have founded on my learn and then not told me about it and played it on her so which. I don't think that's too many things to kind of imagine. Like if if if she found told me about it straightaway I would have given it to her an auditor. She would've told Dave and able to get a cool. Not Very Nick like so the only thing that probably could have saved. It was just not believing Davis much. Just done it why you would tell you like. I know why like she said since that like she had worked every day with the she had no reason to trust it but like did we not just watch his season but was not doing not watch him cozying every single day to mar and Tarzan and like Kazak like he is a Social Chameleon. He is a like drew down here a little bit unlike Martha section of Dave and the way that he interacted with people because Davis a brilliant player. Like like. I said before but I. I was floored that no one could see through his crap and and I don't want to sound like I'm the only one here near the devils bed for everyone but it's like it's true like Sean. Wanted him gone on day one of the swamp and then after that literally never brought it up again to weaken him but never to take him out. Zack thought he was the second of Christ. Tarzan thirty was his long lost son brought back to restore his family's on. Jackie put up with him and that she put up with everyone from volcano. That wasn't inmates. Alliance Lee could not see through it. Sean was beguiled by it. Once he started kind of like talking to phoebe was absolutely enamored by him like she would cuddle up to him every night they would talk. They were very open about like the message or whatever it wasn't doing an felt like I was in an episode of the fucking twilight zone Shannon. Can you shed some light on what was happening does Dave by he is one of the best plans of all time like and I genuinely think like I was floored when I spoke to the extra invented on a few poured coffee and I said he was coming for you so hard like did you? Not Notice shifting image. Not An all old her. I know but that's how much he's making her comfortable. Oh my God I just feel like. He didn't do anything to her to prove to her. In that time that he was with her. Except just the conversations I had told her about the Klu Klu thing the Pandora's box are broader in Shanley. I vouched for her like you know. Like all these things and friends who they're from rule life like she knows she can trust me with the same friends on the other side and it just boggled my mind that she chose him over me and and like I love phoebe and we're friends forever and it's like it doesn't impact the way. I feel about her like she just completely misread the situation and and I'll be honest. It was very readable like Dave is good but he's not that good like we saw. We could see it every day. This is what he would do he would man. I'm so sick man just really struggling like it just sucks so bad to be here. I'm really struggling fucking stocks. Have you done this for so long? Now Dave interviewed and you'd get alcohol. Just when he thought he was out of our show he'd be like literally start whistling and skipping to his interviews and I would like always try and push the limits of where I could go in the boundaries when someone has an interview and I would like there were times when like David be there and he'll be like our hear him like with the chainsaw thing back. I heard him one. Did you like crazy German accent in an interview and I was like. Wow this guy's like pepped up on steroids or something and then he would get to a certain point where he would slow down his walk and be like. Oh God. I'm sorry this man. You are so funny. How he's seeing these and I would like try and explain it to people and explain it to lay and as a crazy on that guy. No yes he's like. What like I felt like I was a ghost. Can anyone see me like like what is going on here? Like Oh my God like it was insane like He. He was so good at the social game right but he was like stu possible to see that he was blind snuck up. You're like he would have this very clear checklist of the things he wanted to do this day and I did this interview with ten daily which was really fun where it's like. You had a clipboard. And he would go tool to nick about teaching and he would come over and be like what's it like. Being a teacher I Anton and consultants let me just see here and nick. Tell me about your favorite band and Yeah cool less one rounded APP. Say What is your dog's name and just be like these like series of like unconnected drawn from a personality. Queens that I would do with my rights in pastoral. Care like of just these random like placate nick time and then I was like. Oh He's doing it to me because he's been targeting me and like he doesn't have to really try that hard with me. That's why I could see it. But then he would get up and he would go and sit next Zach and be like Zach. Tell me about your pets and then like an literally just work through this list. And then when he was always accurate get up and you would go to. Lee and I'm like like surely I'm not insane. He'll surely I can see. I'm Ben Confusion. He was so transparent. But like at least and I give him props food putting in the effort and doing those things in asking those questions Milan and do that. She didn't talk to me like wouldn't ask Charles would chat for like Alice. I wouldn't say any words like it was just seemed talking so I appreciate that. He knew how to play the game in that way he knew how to do the dance. You would pick you up spin you around the dance floor a little bit. Put you back down. Pick up the next person here so with that in mind when you go to travel council and you're throwing everything at the wall and you're using the advantage due on. How much faith did you have? How did you think the numbers? We're GONNA come up so at this point like I could see through him but like Phoebe was adamant that he was with us. Feeding was adamant and I was like man. He is not with us. She's like well he's got Sean and lay myself and Phoebe had committed that we were going to vote for. I had the extra which I told people that I was going to use it but I said I would if I have to. And that was five and she was convinced that we had six that we had him and that he would bring Zack. So Zack and do the dance. You know we're GONNA do legitimate. My God. This is not happening and that's when I was like fine. I'm just GONNA throw my advantage at tied up. I'll see I'll see what's going to happen. I thought that he was going to target me in that trouble. I don't know what he was going to do that. I don't know basically I was just like literally like you said anything that I could do to try and get numerical advantage like and shun. Did something very interesting to me. Which in hindsight makes much more sense. We were sitting in trauma. Counseling as it's getting closer to the leading Sean. I'M GONNA use my extra vote. And she looked at me and her eyes bug desk so wide and she said to turn to shine like yes. I'm going to do it like we need. She's like don't turn to and like I was like in my head on Mike Shot Tocchet. It's useless anyway. We'll just throw it at the wool like we don't need it next time. If we win tonight tonight is where it goes down like tonight is like its role the chocolates to knock and do you know what it was in the end. It's because she didn't want to go home and she thought that four casual votes would not decide the fate anyway and if I threw my extra vote in there it would complicate. Milan would actually go home. and enhanced side. It's like all of course she was working with me on that. Vote like of course so we the tip getting shot. Chana's never working against a blind spot of everyone and I don't know why yes. Okay but what are? The option is greed. There's no other option. I'm just confused about the confusion around it because you hope sitting there and you're like like if if I don't have sean I literally have one person like me and Sean. Yeah yeah and it's like it's like what am I supposed to do like you have to throw your law in someone like Tarzan is not going to vote with. Moana is not going to vote with me like like it's just raw so bad is such so bad anyway. Die Food out his idol that night because he was paranoid a F- like he was sketching. He thought that it was a big plot. Remember this the first time he's going back to tribal since the last thing where it. None of it worked well for him. He was sketching heart so he pulls the Ottawa. And that's when I GOSH. He's just bluffing. He's not gonNA play it but it doesn't matter because like today you're not going home so you're you just told everyone you're gonNA auto for no reason and but it worked it scared. It's kind of like remember back. In like the token chains era where like an idol is used to kind of like a group together and then as we move through. Its ears. Kind of like changed and didn't really doesn't really happen because plays evolved with those players in still holds firm. Like are cool. He's got an auto. Let's go with him. It's like no. That is not what you do when Dave Janet has an idol that ut did not tell you about and we this close to the merge like oh so he pulls it out and phoebe starts freaking out. And that's when I knew like this is this is toast because that's the idol that let's idle because I was convinced that there wasn't another on on the beach because I had ripped that place a pie in the last few days and I knew that had a clue so I didn't think that would be too so I was like it's clearly. Abc's screwed phoebe. This lois or the only thing I could do was literally big. Dave David enough to do this. David Ensor do this. He didn't look at me and I was like whatever it's over I'm going home. Maybe he's going home and that's the story of how sad that is when the podcast that it's like a dumb move to not just flip you're on the river it's like again. It's the same idea of like why I would not let go like if these people preach loyalty than like it's GonNa mean more than just cutting someone loose at the last minute. But that didn't mean anything to them because they don't actually care about loyalty they'd just say it because it's a fun catch cry and makes them social good before you went out. I was like the best movie made season one was how you acted the teague invert and the whole point of that was to vote against the majority so that the majority would embrace you. Because you showed you a loyalty Teagan Passan. Yes yeah exactly. Yeah and like and I feel like that. That's what a lot of like the legacy around my game. Is that if there is? Some sort of legacies decided that like Oh. I'm going to throw anyone under the and it's like no like very rarely have thrown anyone under the bus actually accept Henry. Okay well this is when you're on death row. Twelve pilot game podcast. It's very I you know you you get to bring Shining Brooke over on the reward. You win a great puzzle. Again you desperate. They actually did something that could help you talk about. I don't know maybe maybe you want them to throw a challenge. Like what did you want to happen here from the other side and both aid? You trying to save yourself. This was this was a rough time because come back to can't right and this is when I knew that things would die because when I came back to camp that not sorry to backtrack but when I came actually can't not literally Dave and spilled every like so. This is really bad what I did. I was like okay. I played Pandora's Box. I need them to think that phoebe played Pandora's box so when we get back to camp they like Oh ten nine ten bucks whatever it is. Who was that? And I said Phoebe must have had Pandora's Box rox Ethel Okay. No one knows except my close allies. Who voted with me? They're not gonNA read me out. Little had already rented me out too so I was like. Oh phoebe must've had Pandora's box and Everett like low just looked at me. She's like you'll lying to me right now and I was like what do you mean? She's like she's like we know that you had Pandora's box. You should take me so now like a bad situation made even worse that I came back and tried to lie my way out of it because phoebe retail Dave so that screwed me even more so so far on the bottom like and then Sean straightaway ditched made. Didn't talk to me and just all clung to Moana and Lee and I would just like well. It's been a pleasure Lee playing with you and I'm glad that we this time to repair a friendship. And you see Lisa like in the next episode. We'll hide help. We would just like literally. There's nothing we can do anything. That trump is going to choose one of us. They're going to choose late because lease a lovely man. He's much more like them than I am. And I was a sketchy guy who needed to go so I was just in everything. Sean had abandoned me Dave like this is where dive his absolute most caulking in the lead up to going harm. All I had was well. I was pitching this idea that I was pitchy idea that. Okay Me Sean. Lee Are Three WanNa Tuazon and Milwaukee and Jackie Earth while we may have done some shots across the bow like like us three voted for months and Utah. Zanu voted for me. What has never happened. Is anyone within those. Two threes has voted for each other. So what that shows is that we are true loyal threes. Why don't we join up and become a six and that seeks has proven its loyalty to the people some of the people within it and this is a chance to kind of foster an this was the best. I could do and I thought and what we can do is we can tell Zach. We can target like any of those two that you think we should. If you don't WanNa talk it dive more if you don't talk it dive Jazz Tarzan. Let's Go Zach Ryan Net and then toews. Now you'll really his right hand man because Zach Scott and until Sean the plan until and Leonardo then go and try and Peach Tamar Mar. I walked back into camp and Sean has told Dave online and then Dave comes up to me. And he's like he does he. Does this little finger thing step into my office? Who's me into his office? And he's like nick move. Fear Smart Guy. I wouldn't be doing that if I was you. You hold no power. I hold and I was just like Yay I was like. I don't know if that's actually true because you might want to and I was just like kind of pushing back a little bit but also like I don't know what you're getting used sources from Ambala. I did not falter like I was just like you not gonNa break me like you are not pushing me around like I respect your game like you need to respect mine like he was just like man like I was like. Don't pull me into principal. Selfish Oh sir frustrated because like anything I tried to do like my own allies were reading and I was just like literally dead men walking so once. All of those things have happened. My only is the other trump. And that's when I really put in work with them trying to kind of be like because there had been talk of like walkie had actually said to me to challenge that. If I need it they can give me an like. Give me something to help. He's got something or I don't know what that was about so we go to the challenge. Win The reward the the. Ot's and I believe that the show wanted Harry or Shawny to come over and that when we chose Brooke they let us choose one. More person and economies in. Hindsight is funny. That if that wasn't a puzzle we would have lost that challenge you and they would have brought me and then could you imagine because I would have chosen David. I would you imagine Dave and I over the afternoon. Like how different how much more time we had to chat and So what I was hoping for was. I was hoping at this point for when Brooke Brooke came over. I couldn't told you either themselves being survived so heavily when I spoke to Brooke said Brooke. Unique to match for me to Moulana because Brooke had this weird thing with Milano where she actually locked her. She was the only person no she was. The only person from that alliance of people that was that had had these really clear divisions of like distaste both ways that Brooke was the only one Moana connected to and I knew that from Multiple People Moana Hotel so I said to brokers said broke. You need to go and talk to. Mav and you need to vouch for me because I'm dead like on I'm done. And she said Okay and then you need to the next challenge. Tell Harry to vouch for me over AKA blocking us at Dun Dun Dun Dun and. She says she was speaking to mow a little bit. And then she she was speaking tomorrow and I was trying to get across the shiny. How in trouble I was and you guys saw that. The full message didn't get relied because day was literally they're following me around. Oh had like a tag on me the whole time. It was insane so I was just trying to get the message across to them that as much trouble as possible and that I was hoping that between Aka or Harry or Chenille Somewhat. People lucky literally. Everyone on the other tribe is found in auto before maybe not look like they might have found something that they can send over to me and I I said to them. I said I need your help to get to the next stage because I'm going home to not so the message got across because you see the show that when they go back they say like Niki's in trouble now they didn't the Dave being control but once they left the first thing that Mwana comes up to me she comes up to me again remember. She doesn't talk to me. She comes out and talks me and says Brooke we played in Season One. She's like Oh okay. Yeah interesting interesting that you know. I'm like what's and so I think what it actually did was like. How dare you step in and try and get out to you because it was just strange interaction where she didn't realize that we played in the same season but she was also like so like Livid that? I had tried to get Brooke to kind of that full meal. Something like that and then Dave did the same thing like you pretty close so then it became like this like the one thing I was able to actually get across to them. Died was able to contact and spinner and he even said in the dog how he saw me kind of like trying to get across talk to the tribe and he told Lee that and then leave did actually chastised me at that final challenge. He was like what are you doing trying to talk to the tribe and Bari? I'd like to Li like they've got to lease well. Like my love is like when you like that we've gotten into your last can of Hewlett Packard and flower in the Pantry is the one staple I could rely on like. That Dave's even got his hooks into lay all my God I'm stuffed so that challenge when we excruciatingly sit on that bench and watch my life being everyone Jackie and Zack's hence they kept stuffing on the challenge. I was just like I'm dead and as soon as they cold challenge over. I've got up and I bolted overbrook again and also I'd do it again like you need to really food making the night do I can't. I'm like I'm stopped. I'm stuffed and stuff and this will be the moment that like haunts me forever because remember hugging Shawnee and Harry and you know and then I remember Harry not saying anything is. He hugged me and as he stepped away. I Remember Human Consumer Echoes. Through my brain. At that time he goes knee. Are you in trouble nick? A you in trouble and he said it twice and I'm like I'm like nodding I'm like And like I don't know whether I was not a few sieve enough or he'd already made his mind up but it didn't happen and we were sitting there and straight away after challenges usually. Okay all right set up you have Ron. John Moves in. They let it sit for like five minutes and decide that yesterday the other day and when his podcast but like that was a rare thing and here I am just like what is happening. Like why they huddling is. There's something going on that I need to know about and I was looking over it and I just kind of stopped the huddle okay. I guess and I just didn't think anything else if Harry had given you the advantage in say because it's too too heartbreaking. But if he had and you had would you use it in any particular way to try and you know because I think we did an excellent view? You've got some crazy plan to do it to try and help you out more long term. So I've found so I found out about the clue about how advantage voted off and after a few didn't speak to the executive producer and she said this and she told me literally the moment. She told me I felt like you know those movies run like zoom into someone's mind like I formulated the plan in or seconds. There's one option where you just play the thing to survive to get to the merge because we're pretty sure it was the next day easy peasy know-how feelings. This is just what I had to do but plan that I came up with. And it's a little convoluted. I went through it on the exit into so try and keep it as soon as possible. I had a fake auto and the FICO was made up of all the things that I'd mentioned seventeen hours ago at the beginning of this podcast I had the chain. I did the string like they had the key from Pandora's box. I had all those little ribbons. That were the same exact ribbons like Little Red Strings. On the edges of the auto. I didn't have the big Jim. Obviously but I had a lot of the stuff. I had all the paperwork like way too much paperwork for that. Pandora's books was necessary and I had the exact wrapping that the auditors come in. Because that was what the buffs came in at the beginning. I didn't really know what to do with it because I knew the date had an auto when it wouldn't have been plausible that I had actually pulled this from so what I was going to do was because I would have no fear of bouncing back on me. I was going to go back to camp. Red Read it Improv. Which I could have done off to. The challenge secretly from production would have had that time to prepare this. I was going to go back to camp and I was. GonNa Take Sean Lee off and I was gonNA say guys swallow. Harry gave me something because I would have seen some sort of transfer Harry de Auto. I've got an auto safe tucked into my back. I'm not going home. I'm going to use it for one of US three. I didn't care. Let's do this and I would have reaffirmed. This idea that one of us is going is going home. They're going to vote for one of us and then she would have done her. Skittish thing into play it to me. She would have told the others and Blah Blah Blah Blah which. I was very good at this point because she had initially routed out my previous plan a couple of hours before and then what that would have done was that would've been created enough chaos amongst the other people that they would have had to choose a backup of that we're going to vote for and they would've voted for Lee because Dave wouldn't have let them vote for sack Tarzan Mwana. Jackie wasn't gonNA get votes. They weren't gonNA vote for dead because he has the so. The shadow lay in Milano. Wouldn't let them vote for Sean. But she would have been skittish enough to think that they could have done that. Because at this point day hated Sean and this comes through in the TV shows. Well that like he was annoyed at Sean for several things so her and Lee would have been on the chopping block and I would have said I will play for you guys but I'm probably going to play it for myself so if we play it for myself. What are we going to do? And then they would have realized that they were going to catch votes and these people were not with them as much as they thought they were possible to travel council. Still haven't told anyone about the Harry's advantage I stand up when he says I've copped all the votes or who knows what's happened in the since then would never have got to see that was one of the stipulations that you don't get to open you. Don't get to reveal the vote. I would have stood up and said Jonathan. I'd like to play my auto on a wooden walked up with the package. Everything we've had a string hanging out. Well you wouldn't have even if you didn't convince anyone said GonNa play this on. Sean Sean would have been like. Oh my God thank God said but I want to increase olds because I'm happy to get to the merge but I'm I want to get to the merge with Sean Lee these Murad people so I want to even up and that's when I pulled out the thing and I would have said instead of the auto I wanNA play. This bomb cancelled the vote. Sean and all they know that they would have got votes that they now also think I had an auto which don't which could have been debunked probably after that I've cancelled votes on now at the merge with Leeann Sean who even if they weren't with me completely there was now that doubt that well I am at the bottom of this pecking order and I am probably going to go home and now we again shown probably not probably not but all I needed is the doubt that her name was on the chopping block. And I didn't have late. Didn't have sean then. Labor to go to the votes then Lee knows that like he's on the bottom and then you know that's something. I don't believe I believe that had I been at the merge with that scenario that I just explained there is definitely much more choice for Sean Lee to flip. Even if they don't flip on there to tell the other side that Dave Kombi trusted on there to leverage the fact that I have a fake auto and that tell them that does have an auto completely different about how it goes about now. Even if it doesn't change the fight of the game moving forward brought and there's a very strong argument that it wouldn't have because had I would have gone straight to have been in numerical disadvantage. Shanley probably wouldn't have voted with me. I'm not going time. Tarzan wanted lucky gone so badly. Inserted jive lucky would've gone home. Harry would have gone high because of the awkward little consecutive days thing Lee gets taken out of the game and now I'm at the top with the XL twist and that is that sucks. That sucks. Yeah I mean I obviously in the exit like which side not knowing any of your against but like which side would you have gone on? If Nick was on the side and showers on the cooler side. And you're at the mercy year the spring debating this for two weeks and he was like I never thought of it so I don't know like it's definitely possible. Especially if you're putting pressure on it that Lee could have gone with you and giving you the majority or as you said it is worth not enough similar way except jobs there and having to fight your way to the end like the rest of Oklahoma. And until you are that you wouldn't have on welcome. Ah which is a weird thing but yeah this is a tough one. I'M NOT GONNA lie it it is. It's a tough one now. Now do I think I would have one game absolutely not like like? I think it's two way too hard to predict that but in season one it was like the one more day. I just need one more not just need one more day because one day is GonNa make a difference. It was like. I'm just hoping I get one more day and get another day. I'm hoping to get another day. That was literally how it was working one. It was not PA- mutation. I win season one. Because there's no I get from eleven to the end in any breakdown of nothing so like my game was dead in the water in season one from the beginning that I believe that if I was at the merge I would have made to nine and I feel like I would still been. I was as hated like I was not hated by Jesse likes me. WanNa did not know that I. I personally didn't Gel with a yes. I voted with hates but like she would. She left the game thinking that it was just like I was just different. Alliances Tauzin locked me. Not Enough to vote with me but like these people didn't. They detested lucky. An Egg and a boundary with that and and just like I wouldn't have been in that firing on and not believe except Dave. I was always in dice. Firing line and that probably would've won the day in the end but it's just like I don't believe I would have won but I believe that I make my goal of single digits. That's all and and what's the point if you'RE NOT GONNA WIN? What's the point and being like? I wasn't one of these people. Just want to make new done that down. The jury in Injury Villa three weeks not interested in doing that again. If I was in I wanted to go all the way to the end so that was one of the obviously the more controversial decisions that Harry didn't give you the advantage and he was like Oh best ally and he said that he really regrets it. I think I pretty kind to it because I understand. He didn't know what's going to happen in the game. How do you back on that knowing? That goes moment and it sucks but like I literally have zero ill-will about like our was the best alliance might to me and to quibble with what he did in that moment. Would Undo all the stuff that we did together and how much value him as a saliva alliance as a friend as a player and he made the best decision for himself at the time. And you know unfortunately it didn't work out for me and unfortunately didn't work out for him but I don't think that was gonna make the deciding factor and he's fighting the game so I appreciate that he feels regrets it but like he doesn't need to because I love Harry so much we'll fight showers into this podcast The game you know you try to get something going in the end but it was not a blindside. I think we've come to that. Conclusion is on the bottom from like the swap. So you come home. You didn't make the jury you get to go home to the Stanley Co Koster process of the last few months coming home. Not being part of the second half of the season and then it coming on and watching it back and being a part of life the public all-stars experience. Yeah it was so great that I go to combat I. I'd spent one injury. Villa de and I was so ready to get the hell out of luck. I couldn't have done any longer. And getting to come back. And See Paloma was and Christine was unreal. I was he if a call for the first time. She didn't start a walking like we've got to do so much. Just chill time. We went down to the cars for a few weeks in like that. I would never get back because I was on break from work and I was so brilliant so I didn't want to get voted out into the merge and then have to see the jury villa again so it was it was actually really cool to come back and see her and like I said I'm so proud to make sixty five days. I did some cool cool stuff like like so proud and then to get to share it again like it's so different to season one this social media now that we're allowed to be popular. Everyone watches they know what to expect. That was the cool press trip that we did with the photo shoots and like this show has become this juggernaut almost and to be part of that and I have your face on trends and buses and it's just unreal like I'm so grateful like I'm so incredibly grateful for everything that survive is given me and and I'm so happy to put to bed now completely and and to one hundred percent may not like that it's done. I am happy. I am at peace. And and just Now Ready for survivor to go into new stratosphere that does not involve me in the playing capacity cold again. No really really not look like it would say sticker saying that like they asked me to go play American Sevada tell her bed catcher. I'll leave on the flight like in five minutes after the compensation but survival. I think I'm done day for the same thing like what is it about. Us alive and it's tantalizing for the granting players because it just seems so much faster and so much fun life so you come back. You're part of all the material which you've actually not not a right to this more privilege if you're an Australian all star contestant on watching it back then there's the social media thing we said kind of clarifying things a little bit of back and forth all the players very different as said to thieves and one very different experience for you. What was that like? Yeah it was great. It was great to actually be able to connect with fans last time around this complete gag. Order it sucked like this. I would actually like get involved and and we did and the fans love it I love saliva and I love being part of it for them as my former. Noda's a podcast about the season with you. Do you have any thoughts on how the game played out after you were gone with the wind as we've said with with house hundred going from from the stand and applaud constant perspective. Yes Sir through the days one. I was cheering so hard for Shawny and ACT K. And Brooke and Harry like just seeing them. Kind of like stick together was like awesome. Because you can't tell them what to do they're going to try and push through anyway. I did hate that that it was so black and white with the alliances that there wasn't just voting blocks that the breaking up and coming together and and I do think that's maybe to do some of the costing but like it was a gray season. I do I really enjoyed as a podcast. The pre merge stuff unbreakable was absolutely like mesmerizing and Dave is just great TV. But obviously I wish the editing was better in terms of like less dave more more of everyone else and I think what happened to Sean like when you really think about it. Kind of is indicative of the way the game played where she just promised everyone the world and couldn't deliver on any of it and I still am boggled that her and want to wanted to go to the end with Dave and like. Let's not get a twisted. They both wanted to sit at the end with Dave because they thought they could be him because they thought that people would be bitter and they weren't and if Milana thinks that she was going to win because if she sat next to Dave at the end you know that's a complete bs in David's even admitted it. So I'm very glad that we have Davis the winner of I think it kind of gives credence to the gameplay and Sean Making one hundred days is pretty epic well. The last thing is the reunion. You obviously went to Sydney in troubling times. They're not your questions got shorten. Would you crazy but it looks like a fun experience. You have like bad blood about how that went out or you're just happy for the experience. Oh my God I bet blooded Olek I gotta ask questions. That didn't make the car. But if you watch talking trouble which I'm sure you will do this. Shannon has indoctrinated. You wasn't in the episode that you but the Little Ross. We've got their whole entire segment where we go into view talked about it and it was just. It was really great to catch up with everyone. It kind of helped put a pin in the whole experience. May which is really needed. Especially when you've got the jury you get to catch up with everyone and everyone. Was there. The cost yeah. It was fun it was really fun. I'm disappointed with the corona thing. Obviously my family could in common that experienced piles into comparison. What people are dealing with out there? So I'm very grateful for the experience you see. This would be where I'd be like questions from listeners and we did get so many good one for me a sad that you know. Five thousand podcast. I'M NOT GONNA ask any. I do feel like we pretty much covered. Everything that was awesome seemed really putting. We did get a lot of like. What are your thoughts and wear? Australians should go and like a lot of more objective questions I would love to do media. Separate off season podcast. It's not five hours into this deep dive but we kind of just hash. Around the future of the Franchise Post Season All star season. Because I like that was a very new city. Us and we might be going into some direction. So we'll put a pin in that for some off season content if we stared down the barrel of Pretty Long off-season unfortunately but yeah. That's that's all I really do have. Would you have any closing words on where you're at survive in now in your whole experience? Signed me up for that podcast for Shannon Like I am like I said so foods so happy one million percent in grateful and I just want to move on now like I'm like this was Super Cathodic. Obviously I needed like many hours to twenty eight days. I'm just like thank you so much for your ongoing support. We've said a million times just the best and you know you're not afraid to tell me when I'm doing the wrong thing and like afraid to tell me when I'm doing well in the game and I think that you know super like objective and just you have such a keen Shirley smaller and I think that we are all very grateful whether people that the podcast Qasr exists or not. We are very grateful for what you've done for us. Thank you and just like another. Thank you to Lisa Glass. I felt the love this time like I was getting death threats in season one. I think I literally got one. Negative comment sent to me this time and it was like actually hilarious like so the that I've been given is I hope I did. I have proud. I hope I did in some capacity. I know I've always been away better TV character than I am play but that I kind of like also brought the game as well because you can only go out from. Let's be real saw. Thanks and everyone who sends me messages. I get back to everyone on instagram and twitter up because we didn't get all the questions if any that we didn't really answer. I'll try and let go back and onto the on the on the post. So thank you so much as I said when I got voted out this Alava snaky signing out. Thank you got some k full nick at Nagai. Dan's right twitter and instagram. Where he will reply to you if you do message to send him. Hey pleasure de-stress but what you said. I only got one. I was like only one desperate. But you got any thoughts. No district's none nothing. But my God how is hoping for one just added to the scrapbook it's assassinated this as reality TV. That I can even get one threat. Like that. Is Crazy yeah? Instagram nowadays is all about like book recommendations and like twins all about like talking about drag rice now about what tiger king like just like talking about war. Hit me up I love. I love twitter. Love chatting with you guys. Yes we will be podcast war point probably towards like the finale which we did philosophy full follow me at Shannon Gates on twitter and instagram subscribe to the international survivor. Feed as well. We can get all of the content. I'm about five thousand of those Parkas. The Dave deep dive is currently number one in the countries. That thank you very much for checking that out. It was the longest podcast I've ever done. And it is now thoroughly beaten by this guy so all well if anyone's going to beat it like I'm not allowed to beat it even remember what the world looks like outside of this rumor. I recall it. The podcast even know and shout out to Adam Cohen. Who Actually said that for every minute I go over. This wasn't why we went long by the way every minute. I go the day time limit. He will donate a dollar to a charity of choice. We did some work today. Yeah all righty so much content. I'm putting out survive global with P. Maranda about an emerging episode of winners at war's at next week I will be chatting about. Win is a wall with my brother slash intern Jason Gates. We're excited about. That always wanted to do that. So hope you guys will check that out the recap the finale recap that with over three and a half hours which I think at the time was the longest point ever done and a week later. Is the third longest point. Is I have insane to the that you guys have checked that as well and the exit interviews with the final three. Still they're Moody Plaza coming. Sony will be next much later in the week. And then Sean I think we'RE GONNA GET AKA in Harry and as I've said. Td where this goes by. You cannot complain about the amount of Australia survivor Clinton. I'm currently going out so I hope that everyone's chasing out of you need something to watch now that you don't have three nights a week of Australians via lose Riley on twitter housewives node says the real housewives et CETERA. We'd love the real housewives. But Israeli pullout Melvin survival on YouTube. It's a fan made version. It's cooled as cope with could have our own one. Because he's states have been doing it for ages now. We have an Australian version. So check that out as well and Nick. Somehow like somehow the done. Download the PODCAST. They don't remember my life before it started. I don't know what it will look like after but we did. Thanks for listening guys. If you made it to the end you are a freak and I love you with a full list of circles. Truly Fula Soak was getting data that you guys enjoyed the deep dive off some distraction in these crazy times everyone keep well and say thank you just saint-pierre behind the scenes. Nick thank you for giving up so much of your time. Thank you for representing the community. I was always and I've said it a million times food so proud of you so honored to be a friend and your intern still but whatever it is. I'm just grateful to be here. Thanks Shannon I feel the love every day. Okay we'll thank you guys so much for listening and we will see you. Next time I buy say ordinary Australians sleep apnea one billion pounds leave.