20 Episode results for "Daryl Davis"

#1419 - Daryl Davis

The Joe Rogan Experience

2:48:04 hr | 1 year ago

#1419 - Daryl Davis

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And it's technology identifies people with the right experience and invites them to apply to your job so you get quality candidates qualified quality candidates faster faster in fact after posting his job to Ziprecruiter Dylan said he was amazed by how quickly great candidates were applying and he found his new WHO director of coffee in just a few days with results like that. It's no wonder why four out of five employers who post on Ziprecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day how about that Ziprecruiter. The smartest way to hire see. Why ziprecruiter is effective for businesses of all sizes sizes trust Ziprecruiter for free at our web address? ZIPRECRUITER DOT com slash Rogan. That's ZIPRECRUITER DOT com slash. ROGIN ROGIN is spelled R. O. G. A. N. ZIPRECRUITER DOT COM slash rogan. My guest today. What an inspirational human being? Let me tell you about this guy. Darrelle Davis is musician Plays all kinds of music piano. He Plays Country Rock and Roll Blues. Brilliant Musician Shen and he also has converted racists he has converted KKK members. Now it's up to around two hundred toward two hundred racist and even Nazis have given up their this ideology toxic thing that they were doing because of this man's work and the story is incredibly inspiring. I don't WanNa say anymore. I just want you to listen to it. One of my favorite podcasts. In a long time please welcome. Daryl Davis the Joe Rogan experience. podcast Hey Jim hey how you doing my pleasure. Thank you for being here really appreciate it. Thank you I read your story. I saw a thing about you on. NPR and and Is Crazy you've converted. How many people two hundred KKK members? You've got them to drop the robes. Some directly indirectly is. How did that happen happen? Wow I keep winning into these guys I mean I'm a musician by trade right blue rock and roll Blues Blues Swing Jazz degrees in Jazz. But Hey I'll I'll play whatever you want me to play and you're paying on playing so everybody likes music even the KKK. So use that to to my advantage. I was playing in a bar. One night in Frederick Maryland a non white bar and when I say white I don't mean that blacks couldn't go in when I mean is that blacks chose not to go in. They weren't welcome and here. I wasn't this bar this country aband- a friend of mine span. I was only black guy in the band. Only black guy in the bar and upon finishing the first set this. I'm walking to the to the ban table and somebody came up and put their arm around my shoulder to see who it was way. Gentlemen Maybe fifteen years older than me and he says yeah. Yeah I really enjoy your music. I said thank you. And and he pointed at the stage and said you know. I've seen this ban before by never seen you before. Would you come from. Yeah you know. They they played here before. But this is my first time in this place. I just joined the band and he said man. I really like your piano plan. This is the first first time I ever heard a black man play piano like Jerry. Lee Lewis and I wasn't I wasn't offended but I was rather surprised. Surprised because as I say guys like maybe fifteen years older than me and he didn't he did not know the black origin of Joyti. There was a style of Pinot plan. I explained it to him. I got it from the same place. Jerry Lee did from Black Blues and Boogie. woogie piano players where the guy was incredulous are not Nigeria invented. That I never heard no black men play like that. If you something okay with this guy never heard of little Richard or fats domino and I look man I know Jerry. Lewis is a friend of mine. He's told me himself with another play. The Guy that I buy that Jerry Lee him by the jury leader anything from black people but he was so fascinated that he wanted to buy me a drink a novelty to him so that was table had a cranberry juice and then he announces this. This is the first time I was sat down. Had A drink with the black man and now I'm I'm the one who's incredulously. How can that be you know? I've sat down with thousands thousands of white people. Anybody else had a meal a beverage conversation. How's it this guy had never done that and innocently I asked him? I said why hit hit an answer me at first. He stared down at the table. Top and I asked him again and his buddies sitting next to him elbowed him in the side. I said tell him tell him tell him awesome. Awesome tell me mystery planners day and he says I'm a member of the ku-klux-klan well I burst out laughing. It was getting weirder by the second. Yeah and I knew a lot about the plan. I had been studying racism since I was a ten year old kid because of an incident. That happened to me back. Then I bought both on black supremacy white supremacy the KKK the Nazis neo-nazis his Trip to try to understand this mentality and I knew clansman would not come up and just throw his arm around some black guy shoulder and praises talent and want to hang out with him by my drink so this guy's jerking me around some laughing and he goes inside his pocket and put his wallet and Producers Klan Membership Card. They have cards. Oh Yeah Yeah. He gave me his card. I looked at it. And I recognize the Klan insignia which is a red red circle with a white cross and a red blood drop in the center of the Cross and I was oh man the sense for real so I stopped writing. It wasn't fun on anymore and I gave it back to him and we chatted about the clan and different things but the dude gave me his phone number and wanted me to call him the whatever I was to return to this bar so he could bring his friends. Meaning clansman Atlanta's women to see this black guy player Julie. I'm not sure. He called me black-eyed to his friends. But I call you so I will call him every six weeks on a Wednesday or Thursday. Hey man you know. We're down at the Daughter Friday and Saturday coming out. He come up both nights he bring clansman and class women and they come and gather around the bandstand and and watch me for the piano or get out there and dance to our music. Now you know they didn't come in robes and hoods right they came in three close and On the breakout Goethe's table. Say hello some of them are very curious. They'd hang out there and WanNa meet me talk to me others would be coming and get up and take off and go stands by the part of the room where it's like. I just WanNa see you. I don't want to deal with you kind of So that was fine and I decided later on and I would write a book because I've been looking for an answer to a question that I had formed when I was aged ten. My question was how can you hate me when you don't even know me. And this was a result of having marched in a cub scout parade at the the age of ten being the only black scout in this up parade and while most people on the streets and sidewalks which hearing us we we were watching from Lexington to Concord Massachusetts to commemorate the writer. Paul Revere and people were waving flags and yelling and screaming. The British are coming and all the time except for one small pocket of people who were throwing rocks and bottles at me and at age. Ten My first thought was. Oh those people over there. Don't like the scouts. That's how naive I was. It wasn't until my den mother. My master my troop leader all came rushing over and huddled over me with their bodies these white people and escorted me out of the danger. But I realized I was only target because nobody nobody else was giving this protection and these were adults or these other children were a maybe about five people. I'm a couple of kids. Maybe my age a year older and some adults adults were throwing rocks and bottles at a ten year old boy. That's correct. Wow and I I I kept saying to my my scout leaders. I didn't do anything. I didn't do anything because now I'm trying to find out. What did I do right? You know why they're doing this to me Eh right and it keeps shushing me telling me to move along. It'd be okay so that never answered. The question is why this is happening when I got home that day. After for this parade my mother and father who were not there were putting mature chrome and bandaids on me and ask me how that fall down and get all scraped up I. If I didn't fall down I told them exactly what had happened for the first time in my life my mom and dad sat me down and explain to me Eh. What racism was at the age of ten? I had never heard the term racism now. What year was nineteen sixty eight I'll tell you why because my dad was a US foreign service so we spend a lot of time overseas every two years. Here's you go to a country. You're there for two years. Come back home for a few months and they get reassigned another country so when I was overseas uh-huh elementary school. My classes were filled with kids from all over the world. Anybody who had an embassy in those countries all of US embassy kids would have the same school. My class was full of kids from Nigeria Italy France Germany Japan Russia. You name it If you were to open the door to my classroom stick your head in you say this United Nations a little kids because that's exactly what it was and we all got along then. I would come home after that two year assignment and I would be in either all black schools or all white schools. I'm sorry all black or all black and white schools meaning meaning the still segregated or the newly integrated schools and there was not the amount of diversity in my classroom that I had overseas today. You walk into a classroom mm-hmm you know you can't tell from from all over so literally Between nine hundred sixty one and like nineteen sixty eight seventy. I was wondering about twelve years into the future when I was living overseas. Because that multicultural scene had yet to come to this country and when it did of course I was already prepared unfortunately many of my peers. We're not so I didn't experience. Racism had I live here. My you know my whole life I might have had a different perspective and not taking this path So I was very curious about and fascinated with it. How can somebody hit you? And you don't even know you it was just beyond my comprehension and I knew something was wrong because the people who did this to me did not look any different than my little French friends my Swedish friends or my fellow Americans from the embassy or for that matter my I fellow Americans right there at the school where I went where we did the march so I knew it wasn't a color thing in fact when my parents told told me this I did not believe my parents I thought for some reason my parents aligned to me because my ten year old brain could not process the idea that as someone who had never seen me had never spoken to me knew nothing about me would want to inflict pain upon me for no other reason than the color of my skin so oh I do not believe them well a month and a half later that same year nineteen sixty eight on April the fourth Martin Luther King was assassinated committed and I remember it very well We were in Massachusetts Saint Louis and a nearby Boston Washington. DC my hometown Chicago Illinois Philadelphia. Detroit Baltimore which Mun. La All burned to the ground with violence and destruction option. All in the name of this new word I had learned call racism and so then I realized my parents are told me the truth this this phenomenon on call. Racism does exist. But why I don't understand why okay so it's here but why and so. That's what I formed that question. How view hate me? We don't even know me and so I've been looking for the answer to that question now for fifty one years I'm sixty one years old so after I I Met this clansman show. Maybe I don't know three or four months later. I put that band and went back to playing rock and ROLL AND BLUES R&B and then it dawned on me. Daryl you know the answers that you've been seeking since age ten cell right into your lap WHO Better to ask that question of? How can you hate me? We don't even know me to the asking of somebody who would go so far as join an organization whose whole premise has been hating people who do not look. It's like them or not believe as they believe and this organization has been around for over one hundred years somebody would go that far to join the KKK. Should Damn sure have an answer to your question so get back in contact with that. And why don't you write a book. 'CAUSE I had every book I still do every book written on the plan Dan and they all were written by white authors. Obviously because a white author would have you know less fear of re ramifications talking to a clansman or interviewing doing them Who have easier access or join the KLAN undercover? Get the story get out and write about it so. My Book became the first first book ever written by a black author on the Klux Klan from the perspective of sitting down face to face. I decided I would go around the country interview cleanliness there. You're in Maryland. where I live up north down South Midwest and West and I I said I would start right there in Maryland so I got a hold of that guy and I want him to introduce me to the leader for Maryland? What was his reaction when When I thought grabbing the microphone just pull close to perfect perfect? What was his reaction when you call them up and said Hey I wanna know what makes you guys tick? Why are you doing this little? Funnier than that. The I found the guy's number you know from the bar from civil lounge and I called it like months later and it had been disconnected so the track him down turned out here and moved. He didn't have a phone. I was able to get an address and so uh-huh I had no way of knowing you know letting him come over and talk to you so I shoulder bit apartment one evening and knocked on the door and I hadn't hadn't seen in a while. Right he opens the door and sees me. Because they're all you know. What are you doing here? And he and he stepped out into the hallway. And it's down. The hallway survived brought anybody with me and when he stepped out of his apartment. I stepped in three turn around and comes back in. Here's what's going on. He's still playing what's going on. I said Yeah. I'm playing but I need talk to you with clan clan. I said Yeah you're a member right. WHO's well I was but I quit? and He went into this long dissertation as to why with the plan so so long story short. I said I want to meet the Klan leader. Did he quit the Klan because of his interaction with you know not no actually he lied to me yes he was no longer in the clan but What happened was he said He? He quit because he didn't he. You didn't like Their their ideology I later found out In my research that and I got this from the guy who banished. I am the the leader of the of that particular clan rupe banished. Yeah yeah that's their term. They banish you. Okay so every Year clang not gave the first of all let me explain the hierarchy of the clan. Okay okay today. There's no such thing thing as the two Klux Klan I There used to be the today. There are many who exclaimed groups and they all. Aw tournaments they use the same. Name to Clark's plan. You might have the Dixie nights of the ku-klux-klan the confederate knights of the land. The rebel nights on on these are all separate to Klux Klan groups. They believe in the same ideology. They wear the same colors on their robes that designate their rank. They have the same secret handshake. The secret handshake just offshore to you. Later would later tell people in case Dan. I don't even know I can't reveal secret. Okay serious stuff. Oh yeah same passwords everything that passwords Clarence claris and and understand The plan was formed in eighteen. Sixty five at the end of the civil war and it was formed by by six confederate soldiers who were of Irish Scottish descent? And what they did was they borrowed The the rituals or similar the rituals and names and Mystery from the Scottish. Right the masons you know grand this exactly precisely dragons. Yup Yup okay. So here's how the hierarchy works all right so like I said over the years central split apart in different splinter groups of plan. So and they all arrivals with each other if you see a couple of different plan groups out in public they will hold a unified front but behind closed stores. They don't like each other real. Yeah we're real clanging WANNA be clan competition thing because they may have been in the same town at one time and something happened. Somebody embezzles plan dues or didn't get promoted. You know whatever so anyway. If view have a chapter of your particular clan group in another state or multiple states you may then and consider yourself or your group to be a national plan rupe therefore you must have a national leader so overseas all the states in which you have a chapter of your your particular group so We call our National League president and clan terminology. That person is known as the imperial wizard. Anybody who who was prefixed with the word imperial Ms. That person is a national officer. Wizard being the top. I impure wizard like a president and imperial cliff will be like a vice president and the secretary treasurer's whole nine yards and then the next level down we'll be state the head of the state which we call it. The governor. That person is known as a Grand Dragon. Anybody grand is on the state level. They'd officer dragon being the top governor. A grand Calif would be like a Lieutenant Governor and then Secretary Treasurer and then within the state counties the county leader is known as the Great Titan anybody on the great level as on the county level Within the county districts what they call cleverness and we would call a district leader a mayor a councilman Alderman that individuals known as a as an exalted. cyclops AH SO exalted cyclops. He would say Sir Exalted cyclops. Wow that's hilarious. So anyway why cyclops name they chose. I mean when when you think of a cyclops thing think of those guys with one eye in the. Yeah but you know they have all these different names in the middle of the cyclops are just you know rank and file Plain White Robe clansman grants women so I want to To meet the. I'll start in Maryland where I live. I want to start with the KLAN leader from Maryland. You could have several different clan groups in the same state and they are rivals with each other and you can have chapters of those same clients within your state date so this Guy Name Roger. Kelly was the grand dragon for the state of Maryland for this guy's Klan Group and Roger Kelly at the time had the largest just Klan group in Maryland. How many members They don't give numbers but a Roger had probably just over two hundred. The which is a very high number for that time period Sometimes only only have ten members. Some you know they have an Internet presence. But there's only one guy sitting in his basement putting something but Anyway this guy. Didn't I want him to introduce me to Roger. Kelly I want. I Want Roger to be my first interview view and he was terrified. That I can't do it Darryl. We both get in trouble. I said but you're not declining anymore is it doesn't matter. I cannot take a black man to the rand dragon so he was concerned generally from my safety as well as his own and I said well look. Why don't you give me Mister Kelly's address and phone number am I will go to his house and talk to him? He would not do that. I begged and pleaded for twenty minutes. He finally gave me. Mister Kelly's address and phone number on on the condition that I not tell Mr Kelly where I got it and I said okay. And then he warned me said Daryl. That guy could crack under pressure. Oh I want to tell you what why he got banished. Okay but that's coming it's coming. He warned you yeah. He warned me and he said Darrow. Do not do not watch Kelly's house house. He'll kill you and they said there's a bar up in Vermont Maryland. Now you know Thermo Maryland. You don't know it for the clan but that was one one of their headquarters. You Know Thermo Maryland. Because it's also the home of Camp David the presidential retreat and the headquarters for the class right right down the road. That's hilarious. Yeah at Thermo. The time was all white town anytime a black uppers and moved and or interracial couple or a gay couple. Somehow mysteriously across cross will be burned in the yard and boom. They move right out now. That is not that does not mean that. Every person in thermometers in the clamp because they're not what in fact most white people up there one of the clan gone but that's where it was headquartered so There was a bar up there where they hang out every Saturday Saturday night and if I go to that Bar I'm sure to find Roger Kelly and you know unless you're Outta town rallying somewhere he says I don't guarantee you that Roger even talk to you but you're safer to approach him in a public place then Corners property. Did he give you a photograph. How'd you find no? I looked like he was always always in the newspaper on the news. You know being interviews and let that I never met him but I knew you know his image so he drew me a little map. Had to get to this place Saturday night that off and He he says Do not Do not approach on his own property. Right so I you know I'm a musician. I'm working Saturday nights. I can't go go chasing the clan on Saturday. Nice Hobby Yeah. So at that point it was nothing a full-time Tom. Profession I call my secretary who books my band I said you know. Do I have any Sunday's off figure Sunday still part of the weekend. Maybe hangs out on Sunday to. She had a couple of Sundays. And I said okay. I'M GONNA go find Roger. Kelly guy she goes. Well I WANNA do with you now. Here's the problem. She's she's white. Not that I have a problem with that but a black man with a white woman walk into a clam bar right. Could be more similar than you want. So Mary and she said I want to go. I said I you know you get your own risk right so we drove up there this particular Sunday evenings but an hour and a half of my house and My Guy Perfect directions. There's the place right there boom. We locked the car. Walk these steps and I told her I said look. I'm GONNA walk in. I you walk right in behind me if I turn around and face you start running and I'll be behind you. Yeah she says all right. Let's go so we walk in about seven thirty on a Sunday evening. Place was practically empty. I would say maybe no more than six or seven the people in there a couple of guys in the back playing pool guy or two sitting at the bar and the guy told me the this was a clan bar and what he meant by clam bar is the Clinton own it but where they hang out eight. He added to me. That when you walk in the door to your left would be a row booths and the first two booths closest to the door when you come in or reserved for the clan. So I looked over there and nobody it was sitting there so I'm looking around. See if I recognize Roger. Kelly and I didn't see anybody that looks like him which did not mean that. Some of these people weren't clan But I figured what and to my right was a Along bar behind the bar was a mirror and scotch taped to. The Mirror was a picture. An Article From The Washington Post newspaper had a picture of Roger Kelly. They interviewed him about something in w. c. p.. Suing them over some kind of cross burning ceremony or something and I recognize the article. Wow and there's a big confederate flag on the back wall like you have the US flag right there So I knew I was in the right place or the wrong way so I I just think Roger Kelly I you know. I drove an hour and a half to get up here. I don't WanNa go home empty-handed but I didn't want to just walk up. Somebody say excuse me Sir you in the clan so you know. Mary and I are standing in the middle of this bar. Basically looking stupid and not knowing what to do so I said come on Mary. Let's go over there and sit in one of those first two youths because if the plan is in here they will come to us and then we'll know and then we can ask them. Hey We want to see Roger Kelly so we sat down nobody bothered us. Everything was cool eventually we migrated over the bar. I chatted up the guy sitting next to me like I was lost his and directions very nice. Give Me Directions Russians. We failed so we left The next morning Mary worked out of my house I gave a Roger. Kelly's number Monday morning. I said give give them a call. I tell them that you're working for somebody. WHO's writing a book on the plan? Would he consent to sitting down with your boss and giving him an interview however do not tell Mr Kelly but I'm black. If he asks you don't lie to him but don't allude to don't give them reason to do you know be curious. She understood and the reason why I did not want him to know that was a I figured if you knew that He meant I give me the interview but if you agree to do the interview then obviously he was see that I'm black when he when he meets me and he can decide right then and there if he wants to continue it or not but I want him to see me. I certainly If you agree to do the interview knowing that I it was black. He may have different answers. Prepared in the interim that he would have for white interviewer as opposed to black interviewer. So I wanted to be spontaneous candidate so she understood and she called him and he agreed to do the interview. So we set it up for the motel above the Silver Dollar Lounge up there in Frederick Maryland at five fifteen on a Sunday afternoon and Mary and I got there. Oh Man I know several hours. Early I gave her money center down the hall to get some soda pop out of the machine. Put it in the ice bucket. Filler with is getting all code uh so I can. I can offer Mr Kelly beverage a cold beverage. I had no idea what this man would do. Once he laid eyes on me I saw that I was was black. We come into the room where attack me or do you walk away. You know but even I wanted to be hospitable so she got the soda. Pop put an ice focuses on the dresser. Now just by happenstance the way. The Room is laid out. If you are standing in the hallway in the doorway of the room room looking into the room you cannot see who's in the room is literally walk in the door and turn to your right and the rooms wade out back there so oh there's no way you can know who's in the room standing in the hallway. As I took advantage of that I took the lamp tables to the lamp off and put it in the most obscure corner of the room. I put a chair on one side for me. A chair on the other side for Mr Kelly and I had a little bag beside duffel bag and in my bag I. I had a cassette recorder blank cassette tapes and Cobb you the Bible because the ku-klux-klan claims to be a Christian organization and they claim that the Bible preaches racial separation. Now I've read the Bible. I've never seen that in there so I wanted to be able to pull up my my Bible when he brings it up and say here Mr Kelly show me please. And his King James version chapter verse where it says blacks is and whites must be separate. So I'm prepared right right on time at five fifteen. Knock on the door. I'm seeded there where you can't see me and and come in the room. Mary hops up and by the way Mary's White and as I as I mentioned before so she goes around. The corner opens the door door in walks. What is known as the Grand Nighthawk Nighthawk implant terminology means bodyguard security so a grand nighthawk okay? My Name's so ridiculous. cyclops is trends and wizard. Though it goes on and on it goes on of course Grand Claude. In Cleveland he ran madge. I all kinds of stuff anyway. So the Grand Nighthawk which means cited guarded the Grand Dragon like an imperial knight hobbies bodyguard. Imperial Wizard in walks into this Grand Nighthawk. He's wearing military. Camouflage and on one side of his chest is that clan emblem that Red Circle White Cross. Ross blood drop on the other side of the initials K. K. K. embroidered on his Beretta said nights of the ku-klux-klan on his hip he had a semiautomatic handgun holster. He comes in and Mr. Kelly is walking directly behind him in a dark blue suit and tie and when when the Night Hawk turned the corner and saw me he just froze and Mr Kelly did not realize that his nighthawk stopped short and he slammed into his back and knocked him forward and so they're stumbling around regaining their balance and looking around the room and I'm just watching them and I just see the apprehension in their faces. I read it. You know they were thinking. Did the district give us the right room number or just an ambush and what's going on here. So so I stood up and displayed the palms of my hands as a a an armed and I walked forward. I got my right hand and I said hi Mr Kelly. I'm Darrell Davis. And he shook my hand he shook my hand and the Nighthawk shook my hand so so far so good. I'm doing I'm doing well. I said come on. Come on please Mr. Kelly sat down even better and the nighthawks stood at attention. Mr Kelly's right so I'm GONNA sit down opposite them right and Mr Kelly says to me Mr Davis. Do you have any form of identification. I sure I produced my wallet. And I handed handed him by driver's License Hilton. He Goes Oh you live on second street in Silver Spring now beside me a little concerned. Why is this man really street address? All he has to do is look at my name. Look at my pitcher match it up to me and give me back my license here. Syria's looking at my address is gonNA come burn across my lawn. What's up so I do not want to let him know that he had you know a nerve meal by went to let him know under no circumstances you to come to my house uninvited within the failures Intentions so I said to him I said yes Mr Kelly that is where I live and you live at and I named his house number and history that the guy giving me that way I was implying. Hey you know where I live. I know where you live. If you come visit me. I'm GONNA come visit you so there were so you know. We're going to confine office all of this visit into this motel room so he smiled. He nodded his head like he understood. And I did not find out that day. It was several aroma down the road that I had been presumptuous. I had no reason to fear Mr Kelly coming to my house to do anything stupid. What had happened was one of his clan members? Lived right down the road from me. I didn't know that Mr Kelly would have to travel down my street to get into that neighborhood where this plan member lived. He simply recognize the name of the street. That was it pure Cohen so he wasn't trying to threaten no not at all not at all so so Today that same clan member is a federal prison. He'll be there for a long time he would later commit a crime which landed handed him the federal penitentiary so Anyway we got on with this interview and Within ten minutes Mr Kelly know why he could hate people like like Black people are inferior. we are prone to crime the We were criminals. That is why there are more blacks in prison than whites. Now that's a half truth There are indeed indeed more blacks in prison. White people is not because we're prone to crime like he said it's because of inequity our judicial system where whites in the same predicament. Commit either. Don't get the same jail time or don't go to jail or whatever Anyway so I'm criminal. I also said that black people are lazy. He's he We don't WanNa work while we prefer to scan the government welfare system we're looking for handouts and freebies and all that where white people you know. They they working CETERA. And also this book called the Bell Curve had just recently come out and as Murray he you know the one very controversial book so you know he jumped on that and he said well you know it's a known fact you know they say the world's biggest authorities they you know you never see who is right. They say That you know it will have smaller brains than white people and that's why they're Iq is not as high. So I guess that's the beauty of the brain the more intelligent you are so now. I'm sitting there listening to this guy. Tell me that I'm a criminal and I'm lazy and on Welfare and my brain is smaller than his. What he was saying was indeed offensive? But here's the difference is treated me and most of the people. I did not take offense to it. I tell you why I take offense to it. Why should I be offended? Did by somebody who knows nothing about me. He only met me ten minutes ago. He sees the color of my skin and has made this assessment. So why should I take offense to somebody who's telling a lie. I just let them roll along with it. Where did you develop this kind of clarity? It's very unusual to to not be offended. When someone's judging you instantly and saying disparaging things about everyone that looks anything like you just right off the cuff freely really right in front of you? How did you develop this clarity to just not be offended by that? Because it didn't make sense what he was saying. Of course so I figured it you know. How can I be offended by somebody? Who's WHO's all twisted right? You know who who obviously doesn't have the the foresight to see. See that he's wrong. I WANNA learn more about this. which is coming from and so now see? That's what usually stops conversation. And then and then people get into combat. Yeah you know and then it goes nowhere so I was not offended by roll along with it and then when he finished you know and he he was proud of him explain explain to me why the stance I so you know what Mr Kelly I mean. You know I'm with you. I don't have a criminal record. I have never never been on welfare. I've never measured my brain but I'm sure it's the same size as anybody else's he's whatever we go on well every now and then the cassette would run out of tape right and I'd reach down into my badge and pull out a fresh set or Mr Kelly pound the table. Mr Take. The Bible says I reached down. pull up the Bible. Every time I'd reached down like this you get the Bible or the cassette out of the bag. The Nighthawk up onto his hip right now. That was cool. I got that. That's his job. His job is to protect his boss. He he has no idea what's in my bag. That's a little distracting though isn't it. Well Yeah but you know. I realized that these people are afraid of me right. Okay so you know I had to be afraid of them to be cool but but be transparent all right so he's doing his job and just like you know when When you get put well you may get pulled over as much as I do right by the cups of night but you know I can tell you right now you know when when you get pulled over and a and a cop tells you to get your license or whatever and you is in the is in the glovebox and you reach? He gets a little more tighter on Italian. He's protecting himself so nighthawk was doing that. And I got that so This kept happening and after a while he realized there was no threatened. The bag and I went in and out of the bag nighthawk didn't move. He was relaxed just over an hour into this interview. There was a sudden very quick. I mean less than a second noise always in the room. which at that was it and it happened so fast out of nowhere that my ear could not discern what it was? I just came out of the blue. I'm sitting closer than you and I are right now because table with smaller Mr Kelly and the Nighthawk was here in Wisconsin. Right there and flip out of my chair hit the table because my ear could not discern what the noise always was I perceived it to be an ominous threatening noise and I knew I knew for a fact that Mr Kelly had made this noise. Where did it come from? Why did you make it At how do I know that he made it. I knew that because I didn't make it so if you if you don't want to accept responsibility or you know you're not responsible. What do you do you assign blame right? And so I flew about hit. The table and mind was racing. What I just did I just say because Mr Kelly to go off and make some threatening noise you know I instantly put everything in perspective? We're enemies he's head of the clan. I'm a black guy and and now you know and then I heard that former KLANSMAN's voice in my head Darryl do not fool with Roger Kelly. He will kill you so I don't WanNa die and in that split second I have gone into survival mode and when you fear for your life. That's what you do. What was the noise? I'm GONNA say yeah. That was it and Because it was unexpected. And we're so short I couldn't discern it. I you know I went into self protect mode and Accurate hit the table. Well when you fear for your life as let's say you know you go into survival mode and survival mode you know you're only you can only do like one of four things some people they just pass out. They think because the fear is so great the brain cannot process it and it shuts down and they pass out Other people they they're they're muscle's contracted they get tents and they can't move and you can be punching and kicking them and they wanted to be deflecting the blows there they're all constricted. That's called paralysis by fear that you're too afraid to move. The third thing people will do is to run away from wherever the fear is and that is your best option when something scares you. That bad takeoff separate separate yourself as quickly as you can from that fear put as much distance between you and the fears you can and that would have been my choice. had been an option but it was not an option for me because you cannot outrun a bullet in a motel room right so I was not armed. My secretary was not armed. The only person who I knew for sure it was armed was a nighthawk. You can see gun right there and I didn't know if If Mr Kelly had a weapon under suit jacket or not all I knew was I. Don't WanNa die today. So I chose the fourth option which was to do a preemptive strike. You get them before they get you so when I had my chair. I wasn't a dive across the table. I was GONNA grab Mr Kelly grabbing off and slammed him down to the ground and take away the nighthawks gun. Whoa no it was going to happen quickly? Okay I think pretty fast sounds a little too fast. But I'm glad I hit the table because I'm I'm looking right into his eyes trying to figure out what did you do. I didn't say one word to this guy but my eyes had locked with his is like I just anyway through him and I let my eyes do the talking. I I knew he here. My is Is Shouting at him saying what did you just do. Well here's is had fixated on my is. He didn't say a word either but I could read his is his is the same to me. What did you just do? And the Nighthawk had his hand on his gun but not both like whether either one of Y'all just do so Mary with sitting to my left on top of the dresser because there were no more chairs she realized what had happened and she began explaining it to us when it happened again. The ice in the ice bucket have I begun to Melt Hajjis and the cans shifted down the ice with that. Was it okay. So the tension was so thick. The ice the bucket wasn't just like a normal like if there was ice bucket right now I was just noise. You're just on edge absolutely absolutely and the Kansas just falling on Amihai. If you've been talking for an hour and now they've been sitting there before Mr Kelly. Okay we've forgotten about it. I offered him a drink when I got there and he said no but I was going to get to. So you're you're talking to him for an hour and in that our attention detentions not being alleviated at all. He's explaining everything to you. He's telling you his theories you're being very calm and just letting him speak. Yeah but you are still so on edge just being across awesome this guy that that sound right because it came out of nowhere you know it came out of nowhere and I mean yeah. The detention had ahead Had De escalated that kind of stuff as as we got more into our But I think you know we each were aware you know. This is not a normal situation. Yeah black kind of clan leader So each one was still a little wary of the other. Kind of thing But but we were mutually respectful. Okay so then it happened again and we began laughing. We began laughing all of us at how ignorant we had all been. I won't say that this was a learning moment but it was a teaching moment amount and the learning would come later the the wh-what was taught was this all all because some foreign and underscore highlights circled the word foreign entity of which we were ignorant. Ignorant that being the bucket of ice cans of Soda entered into our little comfort zone. The the noise that it made we became fearful full and accusatory of each other so the lesson taught is ignorance breeds. Fear we fear those things. We don't understand all right if you do not keep that fear in check. That fear intern will escalate and breed hatred. Because we hate those things that frighten us if you don't check that hatred in turn will escalate and breed destruction. We want to destroy those things that we ate. Why because they frighten us but guess what they may have been harmless and we were just ignorant and we saw the whole chain unravel to almost completion? The last opponent being destruction stop just short of that had I pounced across the table and hurt one of them or the nighthawk drawn his gun and shot one of us. You know that that would have been the destruction Fortunately that did not happen. We did. I'd say that that whole chain unraveled to completion three years ago on August twelfth. Two thousand seventeen and Charlottesville Virginia which is two hours from my house on August. Twelve two thousand seventeen and Charlottesville Virginia. There was a lot of ignorance in Charlottesville. There was a lot of fear. In Charlottesville. There was a lot of hatred and Charlottesville. And what did it. Culminate in it culminated in destruction when a white supremacist got inside his vehicle and drove full force into a crowd of counter-protestors trying to murder them. He succeeded in injuring twenty and murdering a young lady named Heather. Higher So that whole chain. Is there if you want to solve this problem of racism we need to stop focusing on the symptoms James. Don't worry about the fear. Don't worry about the hatred. Those those are just symptoms must like putting a bandaid on cancer. You gotta go down to the bone and treat it at at its source the source of all this is ignorance. Ignorance can be cured. The Cure for ignorance is called education. So you fits the ignorance. There's nothing to fear you fear what you don't know when you cure the ignorance you know something nothing to fear here if there's nothing to fear then there's nothing to hate if there's something to hate there's nothing to destroy so we need to focus on the ignorance and we address address it with exposure and education and conversation. We spend way too much time in this country talking about the other person. I'm talking about the other person talking past the other person. Why not spend a little time talking with the other person so I'm GonNa say you know we we carry it on with the conversation. Had A good time you know nobody got hurt. Everybody laughed and I thank them shift their hands and they told me to keep in touch. which I'm thinking guys are home? He's I did you know I I call him and say hey. I'm planning your county. Come out and see me. How long did you guys talk that day? Oh maybe I don't know two and a half hours that at the end after the ice that everything sort of loosen up so the laughter and then did the conversation losing then competition. Listen then it wasn't like we all hugged each other but did did you offer any counter to the things he was saying like Charles. Murray stuff absolutely absolutely responded that he said well you know I. I don't know about that. You know I know you know that the you know these guys are doctors and da Da. You know so. He Looks Authority of course. But of course if you you find thirty in the in the other direction something's wrong with them. You know so you take a narrative that fits that fits your narrative so yeah so for example he he did bring up that the Bible preaches racial separation and I gave him the Bible. I said show me where so I forgot the exact chapter and verse but I think it's in the Vikas Paraphrase He pointed to this verse and I read it and it says the effect of A lampshade not lay with the wolf. I said well if he wants to live us so I said what does that mean to Kelly. He says well it means the two species. Should I lay together as a hold on. I said blacks and whites are not species. We are the same species two different colors. Oh no no no. You know. We're different species. So yeah he he takes what he wants and twisted different the narrative. Okay so he could say I. Thank them I began calling him. He talked to my kids. He bring the night off I I invite him down to my house. He came down to my house with the night up while I was sitting on my couch next to him so now Naito get bored right and pull out his gun on and twirl it on his injuries serious and I felt I felt very comfortable with with with them. After time. And so at that point I would begin inviting over some of my black friends. Some of my Jewish friends some other the white friends. He's just like let them know in advance sometimes sometimes not does not how they say when they come over this. UCF Grand Wizard of the Nighthawk. Well Dragon Dragon or was he was still a dragon at that point. Okay and sometimes they freak out and my ban on my God my band You know we have a band van so the also my house getting the van. We'll ride into gig together especially if as far away. Ethanol I'd WANNA stop some Klan Rally on my way and so. I just meet you there the ride with Christ so he just became a full-time good. It did how much how quickly did needed escalate. So it went from this. You obviously had some. You were compelled almost obsessed to meet this guy and get to the bottom of this thing that had been bothering you since you were young and because my relationship with him was really growing is turning into a friendship. I mean you know I'm not GONNA lie. I genuinely liked this guy and I could see him beginning to like me a lot I did not like his ideology but I saw the humanity him him. Yeah and he was seeing the same thing in me. We both want the same things all right. Then and began interviewing a lot of other clan people from different areas up north down South Midwest Cetera. some would talk to me. Some would not talk to me someone to fight me. You know I I ran the whole gamut and I put it all in my book Now I see him for like two years he could end my house or we go out and have lunch or dinner together. Wow Yeah and But during those two years and by the end of two years he was coming to my house by himself he trusted let me that much. No Nighthawk driving down right and By the end of two years he had not invited me to his house. You know After two years he got promoted from from Grand Dragon State leader to imperial wizard national leader. At that point he began invited. Eddie meet his house. He was the man in charge right so I go to his house. I would see as clan. Then we'd have his clan meetings. They have Dan at the house. Well well yeah they call it a day in a room you know. It's all sort of plan. Alter and chairs clan alter is the table that has a plan flag across it has that rebid red circle the white blood drop then they have a candles bins and a and a and a cross and the Cross has either candles on it so it was like a flame or light bulbs so anyway And a sword then across the table Take pictures here's take notes. And then he began Invited me to Klan Rallies Shit. Oh Yeah Yeah and so I go to these Klan rallies and and it had this big wooden cross. The Wind crosses wrapped in burlap. The burlap has been soaked and what they call clan Cologne which actually diesel fuel kerosene and the clansman inclines women are all in their robes and hoods and they have to have these torches the torches lit and they walk in an big wide circle around this cross which is in the center and then either the imperial uh wizard or the Grand Dragon will shout. You know clansman halt and they'll all stop in place face the Cross and they'll all turn in and face the inner circle and then you'll say for my God and they'll repeat format God and bow for my race for my race for my country for my country for my plan plan for my client. White Power White Power Glasmann approach the cross and they all close in another all right there at the base of the Cross Glasmann lights across the dropped their torches at the foot of the Cross and whoosh this thing is a flame and they stand there and admire this burning cross and then they give some speeches from the podium and then they have hot dogs and hamburgers in the rallies over. You know and I'm sitting there watching this. I'm taking pictures taking notes and did it feel to be there watching all this. It's definitely so different but you know I knew what to expect pretty much. I read all these books. Yeah so that's what they do at Klan rallies they burn crosses now. Let me explain something to you that I learned There two times a two occasions upon which they set across the flame as they put it they have a cross burning and across lighting the difference being across burning. It's when they take a five or ten cross wrapped in that burlap soaked in kerosene and and put it in your lawn. Because you're interracial couple. You're gay you're Jewish Jewish White neighborhood. Whatever the deal is that is meant as as intimidation warning we know who you are cease and desist move out? If you don't now next time we come we mean business and there was a bomb your house or something okay when they do that. That's called a cross. Burning right across lighting is when they I do of a thirty or twenty or thirty foot cross at a ceremony and they parade around in the lecture across lighting. And that's what you want to own across leading and how often they do those things as often as they want and so times a year. What do they talk about like when they have meaning the future of the white race and what they I want you know and and with the constitution game to use them as the white man's land this land was built by white people? The constitution was signed by white by white men. This is their our country. You know immigration whatever. The issues are that The Browning of America is a big topic Or White genocide. Same thing uh-huh white genocide. I mean they're racist getting smaller through miscegenation So the topic that they cover It's it's pretty. It's pretty interesting but check this out though Our relationship with grow and grow and eventually Mr Kelly. Yeah we got there. He he began. He'd be ask Nick Right in. He began believing. Wow that's him right there in that photo with you right there and it's grand dragon robe. This is Here's imperial wizard robe right here and He gave his robe. GimMe Israel because he no longer believes and what stands for. Wow and and how many years that is to take before you just by being around talking to him for him it was probably around maybe six and a half seven six and a half seven some some as a matter of months matter a year two years and so what do you do talk that the hat. That's the hood. Yeah Oh Jesus and you see this. This top part is hood and this lower portion here. Sure what's called them the mask and numbers anonymity. They don't want you to know who they are. They were mass which is attached by three snaps or velcro grow. Just remove it. They don't care and the faces expose as you saw on that pitcher So what what is it like. You said you guys got closer. He said you became more and more friends. you start visiting each other. Did he ever say I'm starting to think this is bullshit. Yeah pretty much. How did he say when he called me up one day and he told me I I wanNA talk to you about and I said okay? You WanNa meet for dinner. I said sure so. I drove it to Frederick. Met Him and he didn't say you know I'm quitting McLean. I'm leading and he's a top dog. It's top dog. He gave it all up. And here's the thing He did a smart thing. You did a good thing. He didn't handed down he he shut down. Wow Yeah You know. Did he convince the other people in the clan or they have the choice to do whatever they want to do. A lot of them left a lot of them. Left as well Then there were those who try to keep it going but you know but failed. Did he use you as an example. and He's speaking to them. They they knew why he did it He receives some hate mail. He began receiving some eight mail from from some of his own members. Anonymously the same kind of hate mail that went on he would send endow people anonymous without him. You know You're in bed with Daryl Davis you're a nigger lover all that kind of stuff unsigned the the same stuff that he would put out to other people And so he. He began seeing himself in the mirror. And then so that was that was very crucial And I repeated this process many times with different people do what what is the process. Do you like when you talking about like the Charles Mary. Stuff the bell curve stuff. How do you refute that? What are you saying to him? I'm saying him. Look Mr Murray. I WanNa prove something you find something that fits your narrative. Yes you can find some some black person who has a very low IQ. Okay if if I'M GONNA if if I worked for Ford and I want and I wanNA prove that my car is better than Chevrolet that I'm GonNa find a Chevrolet that doesn't that doesn't run one very well You know I'm I'm GonNa do it that way so I I refused it Mr Murray's and and his His partner two guys who wrote the book Are there their documentation. And I'll and see they. They they go by things that they can see and understand. I'm going to give you an example of something that's going to help you understand. The cyclops was riding around in my car. One day with me. He sitting sitting in my passenger seat right. And we're driving. I'm driving along. And Somehow we got on the topic of of black crime and he made a statement he said. Well you know we all know They say that again that they authority say that that black people have a gene in them. That makes them violent and I'd heard that before from other people that that's one of their narratives and You know the wild black savage kind of thing and What are you talking about? He says well who's doing all the drive-bys and carjackings and south seas he was referring to Southeast Washington in DC which is a predominantly black area. Some whites live there predominantly black very high crime ridden. I said okay. It's black people I said but that's what lives there. Who's doing all the crime and Bangor Maine White people? Because that's what lives there where I said you know. You're not even considering the demographics who's like no no no. No you have this gene Blah Blah Blah. So you know he's GonNa shut me down and I said look here I said look. I'm as black as anybody you know. I said I have never done a drive-by live by I've never gonNA carjacking. How do you explain that? This man did not wait one second. He answered me like that he said did you. Genus Layton. Hasn't come out yet. How you argue with somebody? Who's that far and feel right? I mean you can't even bite into that you on it right so I'm dumbfounded and I'm speechless driving on he's over here all smuggling see nothing to say as well I thought about it and I said you know they say I use his authority. I said they say that all white people have a gene that makes them serial killer is that how do you figure that name me. Three black serial killers. He couldn't do it. I so here I'm GonNa give you one. I named one for him. I said I just named me to. He couldn't do it. I said Charles Manson Jeffrey Dahmer Henry. Lee Lucas John Wayne Gracie Albert Albert desalvo's the Boston Strangler. Ted Bundy David Berkowitz on a Sam Ed gain egging right. It gained his crazy machine as a skin. People okay I said son. They're all white. You're a serial killer Layton and he said well I've never killed anybody. I said you're hasn't come out yet to go. He goes well. That's stupid. I said well I said you're right. It is stupid I said but it's no more of me to say that about you. Then what you said about me. And he got very quiet. But I mean you could almost see Joe Wilson and He's thinking about it and then he changed the subject but within four five months he left the Klan. Wow based on that conversation. Why his robe was afraid? I robot forgot why he came to give you the road but he said he's nation with your I I he said he He didn't come to the rope. He's he called me and And he is going to be up in that area. And he and he said you want you want to get together other. I got together with him and he wanted to go to the courthouse for something he'd been probably would go pick up something the courthouse so I gave them a ride over there and he told me he was. He was going to quit the Klan. You know and he he thought a lot about what I'd said and I said what are you GonNa do with your stuff sit trash I said I said don't don't don't trash. I said. Give it to me. He says you want you want my robe all my stuff and I said yeah he goes. Why why would you want that? I didn't know why between told me to stick it. They'll take it And I said I don't know I'm going to do with the Bussey I said. Yeah I wanted so. We went back to his apartment government. Now I'd never been in his apartment. I've met him outside outside in the driveway. Whatever a parking lot and come on in and so I'm walking up the stairs with them to the department? I'm thinking you know hop getting set up here you know but I walked on in fiance was sitting on the couch. Clans woman not seen her before four and sat down with her and he went down the hall to his room and he came back when we came back he got a hefty trash bag. Went back there again and came back with this trash bag. All loaded up had his robe is hood clan belt Buckle Clam Belco got plan tie clips all kinds of stuff man and and His certificate of membership On stuff in the bat and gave it to me and I said Okay thank you you know now and I. I didn't know why I wanted it. I just knew I should have it First of all is history. Okay and you don't destroy history. The good the bad the ugly and the shameful still American history and the KKK upset. It'd be four is as American as Baseball Apple Pie and Chevrolet away. Shameful part of our history is our history nonetheless now. I know what I'm doing this stuff. I I got my five a one C three. I'm going to have a museum Wedneday all the stuff in there. Why what's a five three so miss you tax-exempt Yeah Hey K. K. Conversion Museum? Yeah yeah pictures of you with the the dudes right next to their robe and most of them most of them I do and so I began collecting all this kind of stuff This this is here in this one. This is a grand dragon robe. Green is assigned for the Grand Dragon and and Confederate flags here. You know plan patches. Who's that who gave you that? This Guy Bob White Robert White Robert White used to be the grand dragon in Maryland for another clan group which was a rival to Roger. Kelly's group all right When I when I first heard about white I was in my late teens and He heard heard about it on the news. He had been busted arrested and put in jail for conspiring to bomb a synagogue in Baltimore Upon Liberty Road. The Liberty Rose Synagogue and he was convicted. He went to prison for four years. This is before I started writing the book all the time so I remember him and then he got out after doing his time continued to clan. And there's years later he got busted again assault with intent to murder two black men with a shotgun right now understand something as a plan leader. You don't make make any money or not embezzling money from the dunes and a lot of people do that. That's what causes these splinter groups If you're a leader like a wizard the dragon you make you like a small stipend out of the news but not enough to pay your rent and put food on your table so you have to have a regular the job you know. cyclops Wizard Dragon. Whatever is all just titles like boy scout leader? You have to have a regular job to pay your rent and mortgage this man's regular job when he was doing all this nonsense bombing places and stuff Baltimore City Police officer this. This is police officer uniform. Okay yeah he was not an undercover cop in the clan gathering intelligence. WHO's a bonafide clansman on the Baltimore? City police force. Okay and they're more they're more okay But he went on. This guy was vehemently vehemently anti Semitic and racist and very very violent but he went on to become one of my best friends and and He gave me his Klan Robe gave me a police uniform. I do a lot of lecturing all over the country and stuff the quit the police force. He was forced to quit the police force or be fired. The Police Force Baltimore Police Force. I mean even just last year they they had a consent decree from the Department of Justice against them. They are very racist and very corrupt What they would do is they would turn a blind eye to the clansman on the force because you know a- As a police officer you're not allowed to belong to any subversive groups all right? Turn a blind eye as long as guys would not bring unwanted attention to the to the department and I just keep keep your stuff. You know whatever well you know he he he would into getting busted for planning a bomb near synagogues and finally shop. Any other kind of stuff at black people So they you know. Hey you know you gotta you gotta you gotTa retire. Uh We put off the force at your causing us too much publicity. This is before he left the clan. Yeah so what did he do after he did that. Well Uh get another job job. He began dealing in a homing pigeons. TEGAS dude people can take euless way to transmit information. It's perfect for some in something like the clan. You have to work and I and I'll tell you something though Not all of them. That probably not most of them but some of the of the hardest working people that I've ever seen in my life have been in the plan. I'm serious I mean working hard to make a living and support their families. It's there a universal factor. Like when you talk about how they got involved in the neighborhood. Is it people that they knew they are family. Well let me let me give you an example. Why people join the plan? Their different reasons In some cases is my grandfather was in the clan. My Daddy was in the plan. So I'm in the plan and my kids are GonNa be in the land. It's a family tradition right past down And when you dealing with somebody with with that kind of time you know that generational thing it may take a little longer for them to come out because it's hard hard to break family tradition right Another reason why people join take depress town like a coal mining town and in West Virginia where Scranton Pennsylvania something like that where people who are not racist They they're hard workers. They did coal all their lives. Chiefs Grandfather Dutko Father Dutko now. You don't go decode after high school. So all you know if I were to hand one of those people the vacuum cleaner say vacuum. This rug they wouldn't know how to do it. All we know is digging coal. And they're happy. They're making their paycheck. They're feeling their family paying their rent. Whatever you know? They're not concerned about people's caller. They're happy but then the company gets greedy and decides. Hey you know what we can save money. Make a lot more money if we layoff our our our our employees and hire some of these these immigrants whether they're legal or illegal because they'll work for for less than half of what we're paying our people right and so they lay off these people and hire these people who just came over to the country looking for work and they pay them next to nothing so now these white people who would never racist Or out of a job. The bank is GonNa foreclose on their trailer or their house or whatever The food on their table the clan CICI's things and the clan will come into a depressed down like that and hold a rally and say the blacks have the N. double ACP the Jews had the ad l.. Nobody stands up for the white man but the Klan come join us. We'll get your job back. You know Y- you that that was your job jobs not gone but you're but you're gone and now some nigger or some spics got your job you know. Why is that? Come join us so so these people like I said who would never raised you know. They began thinking. Well they're right. My job is still there and I and I worked at job for twenty five five years you know and I got laid off no reason and somebody else doing my job. So what do I have to lose human application and they sign up so so they're like you know coerced into into this group They may be a little easier to come out. You know talking with them then. A third reason why people will join somebody relocates to a town that is very clean oriented lots of people from currently live there and stuff you know if you you want to do business in that town you got assimilate you know you join the local country club local chamber of Commerce and the KKK those. There's different reasons why people join and depending again depending upon how strong the ties are why join can determine the The long their longevity or their or their hold on it. What is the one that took the longest crack? Well I'll be awesome you. I never set out to convert anybody and even though in the media it will say Black Musician Converts Two hundred clansmen or Etymology clan members. I didn't convert anybody I don't even convert one of them. I will say that I am the impetus for over two hundred leaving the plan and yeah and I know that for a fact and people have told me. Yeah you know. I'm out of because of you. Things like that but I did not convert them. They converted themselves. I gave within reason to think about their direction in life and they thought about it and thought you know I need a better path and this is the way to go because what would happen. This is like him. You know when when you when you believe in something Some people will just believe just because is that person saying it like you know we we have a current president where no matter what he says. Some people are going to believe and others are disbelieves. All right And and that can go for any president. Really if you're a big fan no matter what you do what you say you have a base. That's going to believe you so I would tell these people when I saw fault with what they were saying in their ideology I said well well let me tell you why I think this is incorrect. And I lay out the facts for them and then they now they can see right then and there Bonita harm that check it out and it rolls around in their head and they began thinking. Now Daryl does have a point. But he's black but he's black but he does have appoint but he's black so even though they know is true they don't WanNa believe because I'm black suicide that cognitive dissonance thing going on so they they have an internal struggle and they had to make up their own mind. Do I continue living a lie or do do I turned my life around. And if the truth you're a very articulate guy and I'm sure a lot of these people are not very educated so the continued exposure does your to. You is probably confusing to them as well. Because you're so good at forming sentences and speaking calm and the words flow so smoothly out of your mouth and you have of these wonderful wonderful grasp of the English language. I think this guy might be smarter than me to help. Let's say something though. Don't be fooled You know we think of of clam people say we people in general because does most of our exposure to it is the Jerry Springer show or Geraldo where they throw chairs type third grade dropout thing. Caricatures Yeah Yep and those are the types that they would bring on the show for whatever reason And I know plenty of those types. Trust me those. Stereotypes do exist But they can go anywhere from third grade dropout all the way to President of the United States president. Warren g harding was sworn into the Ku Klux Klan. In the Green Room of the White House. Whoa what year was that? Whatever year he was the president so as opposed sixty five sixty five nineteen twenties right when t t the dome what it was President Harry Truman. Before Harry Truman became president he was a member of the clan for short-run that's right Harry Truman who who integrated the army right. Wow he joined for a short time. He didn't like it he got out Supreme Court Justice Hugo you go black. Hugo black was in the plan at the time he was appointed to the Supreme Court. He had to leave the Ku Klux Klan. To sit on unsurprising court as a justice More more recently Senator Robert Byrd from West Virginia just died a few years ago. He was a clansman in in the nineteen forties. He he was a grant. Legal clinical means a recruiter. Grandma state. So he was a recruiter for the state of West Virginia A- grant legal in the nineteen forties and he later renounced and stuff. Yeah so you know all kinds of educational backgrounds particularly a long time ago Yeah I mean it was considered the An honorable White Man Society at the time you know they didn't allow women in the the clan and they had a women's auxiliary is now they allow women but women there's still a male chauvinist an organization so women are making progress even the clan but but but they cannot hold the highest offices. They can't be a grand dragon or dragon this. When did you start on this year was ah I started meeting them and all this or are we searching them just when when when did you start meeting them? When when did you have this meeting? After the first the first friendly meaning that I had with with the clan was In the bar that was nineteen eighty three but So my first encounter with the clansman was that the year before and I didn't know he's a clansman. I beat him up so this but the bar thing was a day three I was wondering if it was pre or post the Dave Chapelle bit. Yeah that's and what's funny is everybody asked me. Did you see that the Clinton Bill Cosby or whatever. Yeah You know. I think it's Hilarious but I'm GonNa tell you something. It's not hilarious. Okay Dave Chapelle. He's a comic genius genius. He's great okay. And perhaps if I'd never done what I've done I find a lot of humor in it But I tell you what he's never been to a KLAN rally. I have plenty of them. Those things are not funny they are not funny. Okay they are a pressure cooker waiting to go off and if that valve is not really you know released is GonNa Explode and we saw that in Charlottesville but you know that he. His joke was in how ridiculous. It was absolutely it's faulting lined black right exactly. I understand what you're saying from your perspective. It's not funny. Yeah Yeah I mean yeah yeah I mean there's humor in everything but But you know we shouldn't take take racism you know We we take it more seriously than we do. And I'm GonNa tell you something our country Trie I'm GonNa tell you where his head it's you understand Our country can only become one of two things it can become number one one that which we stand up. I'm sorry that which we sit back and let it become or number to that which we stand up and make it become so we are charged with this question. Do I want to Sit back and see what my country becomes or do I WANNA stand up and make my country become what I wanna see. And I've chosen I've chosen the latter because I don't like the direction it's going. Well you've chosen a very very noble. Not just the latter but very noble path. I mean what you've done is pretty incredible in the amount of time and energy required for you to get close to. These guys is in the fact that you could be doing a lot of the things successfully musician. Yeah I'm sure you have friends. I'm sure you're busy but you chose to spend an extraordinary amount of time pursuing. I would much rather be onstage playing music making people happy and causing to jump up and Danson carry on and sing along then attending Klan rallies. But I find it more more and more necessary because we have dropped the ball. You know the top of that you and I discussing right now. You know twenty thirty years ago. We'd been taboo talking about on radio radio whatever people people not Wanna discuss it And I know about just keeping the closet. You'll OUTTA sight outta mind. Denial and and denying denying it does not make it. Go Away because you can't see it. It's always there so now we're we're forced to address it but let me tell you where it's going which would just went. A lot of people do not talk talk about and don't understand well first of all. Let's let's Let's define what it is back in the day. There was only one group up the Ku Klux Klan. They were the first and the largest gang if you will of racists At one point in time they had four million members are. It's pretty big gang. What was that a bedroom in eighteen twenty s and into the early thirties? How many people were even in American in nineteen twenty more than that a lot more than that but I mean I mean how many it wasn't even one hundred million? I don't even know. I bet it's probably about eighty ninety million because of there's four million that's extrordinary ordinary number and the majority of them were in Indiana Hindi and in the end yeah hundred and ten hundred ten million. Wow and how many four million Dan. That's fun crazy. Yeah Yeah So. It's basically somewhere in the neighborhood of four percent of the entire population of the countries in the fucking clan. Now the bad time it was called white supremacy. Because that's what they believe in you know. This is our country country we're in charge with Supreme. Didn't call it the clan clan but the ideology was called white supremacy and Dan I started in eighteen sixty five a lot of violence. A lot of you know lynchings Bombings you know dragging people behind nine vehicles. All kinds of stuff began happening and it came a lot of baggage with the term white supremacy. Where a lot of white people did not like black people did not like Jewish people? They did not want to participate. In this night writing you know lynchings and murder and other stuff either for for moral reasons or legal reasons whatever the membership began dwindling. Begin dropping out all right. It was too too violent for them. This this white supremacy amnesty word became unpalatable and became negative. So when the membership decreased the had to rebrand so so they they changed it from white supremacy to white separatism. I'm a white separatist. I don't hate black people or Jewish people. I just love. I love my own blacks and Jews should be able to have their own schools their own neighborhoods their own churches their own workplaces. We have ours and that we we don't have to mix. Oh yeah yeah I like that idea. Sign me up. I'm a white separatist should begin increasing. And of course you know the more you have. Somebody's GonNa start acting up so here. uh-huh violence so now the term white supremacy also become unpalatable and people began dropping out so membership went down again and then they had to rebrand next they call themselves. White nationals. A white nationalist right. Now what is a nationalist. A nationalist is someone who loves their country like the Patriot. So you're nationalist nationalist. Why to say white nationalist? Why are we right? But no white nationalist So Yeah I love my country and I'm white sign me up here. Comes the violence So once again the rebranded and now they call it the all right. I use a cliche but as I say a rose by any other name is what still larose. So you call. Whatever you WANNA call it is still white supremacy? Do you think that Charlotte was a wakeup call. Charlottesville excuse me ask for. It was for me because I knew that it still existed but I didn't think they would show themselves publicly like that in the age of the Internet Internet walk down the street with Tiki torches. Let me tell you something. I'm not sure you something. Okay okay the the rally there was called unite. The right rally. I know the guy who put it on. I know all the speakers there I know them personally. What was your understanding as to there were having this big unite? The right rally. I only knew peripherally. I didn't know why they were doing it. I just had probably heard it on the news or something like that and then when I saw the KKK showing with those guys the Charlottesville guys torches with those KKK. Or was it another white supremacy. move all of the above. They had different different unite. The right all the different even right wing groups came right League of the South Ku-klux-klan National Socialist Movement Different entity movement. Yeah the National Social Nazis EXAC- NFL. Yeah okay they were there to now In the media they they gave a reason as to why why why were they there. What are they protesting? What was their reason for for for being there and Charlottesville I have no idea? Okay well if the media put out was they hey a come together to protest the removal of the confederate statues. Okay you remember. They were tearing down the statue right. I the conversation with somebody about it that those statues most of them were very cheaply made actually put up during the civil rights movement. Right yes yes okay. So that was not the reason why they had the rally. Okay that's what the media said. Okay anytime okay. The reason why they had this rally there yes there were some people who went there to legitimately Oppose the the removal of those statues Robert e Lee and Stonewall Jackson whoever else but the majority of people who came there were there to start the initial steps of the race war as right the race war okay. The white supremacists have been predicting at had been in preparing for a race war. Just like Dylann roof was trying to start the rates whether he said when he went to that black church in the place He's the guy who shot those those people in El Paso he said the race war. All right here. Here's what's you no anytime you want to occupy a piece of public property because you WANNA have a rally demonstration or even if you want to set up limited hotdog stand if it's GonNa be on public property you must have a permit right you got under the city can application stay fit your name and state your purpose. You cannot very well say on the application and I want to start a race war. You not get the permit all right so you provide some legitimate excuse. My great-great-great ancestors fought in the confederacy. That's my heritage. I don't want you messing with it. Okay that's the sign off. Here's your printer. And now you can occupy that corner of twelfth and main from twelve noon to four PM. Whatever okay so they? They went through the procedure. They illegally got a permit to have. They're united right rally under false pretense now two things. Anybody who knows American history knows that they were also blacks and also Jews who fought in the confederacy right the Black slaves had to fight for their slave owners in the south. There were a number of Jewish slave owners. They didn't want to give up that free labor so blacks Jews and whites fought together and the confederacy against blacks whites and Jews in the union. Union my great great great ancestors were slaves who also fought in the confederacy. I have ancestors in the confederacy. All right. My parents from Virginia roanoke and Salem I was born in Chicago. Because that's what my dad was working at the time but Virginia is is was the seat of the confederacy. All right so there are black people today and some Jewish people who honor the confederacy. They don't condone slavery but they honor the confederacy because of their great great ancestors. Stay on our in house. I'll like like to have taken place mostly in the south so there's black people in the confederate. You find them all that you find them. Yeah and now. They don't condone slavery they're just honoring the confederacy colors that your ancestors were indicted or whatever I honor my ancestors stors however I don't the confederacy me personally. Some of the blacks and Jews WanNa do that business I don't do it so and ironically. Ironically this is a historical fact. The confederate army was integrated. The a union army was segregated. Which is okay so here here? We're fighting to free. Slaves and the end of the Federal Federal Army has blacks and whites fighting together and the union had the most segregated. It tends to make sense but it does because it's also ridiculous. Yes what humans humans are exactly exactly you got it. You know irrationality so okay. Now if if blacks and Jews news and whites could fight together one hundred and fifty years ago. Why can't they marched together in two thousand seventeen? Wouldn't it make more sense and give more credibility to your cause if you're cause was truly to preserve those statues why not invite descendants like yourselves of blacks and Jews to March with you in Charlottesville and say that's my heritage to leave it alone. Would that not add more credibility certainly would but what are the numbers. Can you get even if you only got five or ten right okay. That was still would lend some credibility okay. Okay but instead. So they're climbing. This is their heritage instead of inviting including blacks and Jews. The excellent them in two thousand seventeen in so if blacks and Jews wanted to March it would not let them. Yeah exactly I mean. I don't know if there's any who did or digits implicitly stated that White People this is unite. You're not the right okay. White supremacist organizations. So instead of including blacks Jews heritage. Shouldn't everybody in that heritage. You take what you want to preserve the confederacy. Well guess what there were blacks in the confederacy. You know that that's historical fact. There were Jews in in the confederacy ritzy. The confederacy was simply a reflection of a of the south. Okay so instead of including them they executed them and they marched through the University of Virginia campus with their tiki torches and the streets of Charlottesville yelling and screaming antisemitic and racial epithets. It's what does that tell you it tells you. Their protests was not about heritage. It was about hate as number one number two nobody the and Charlottesville or anywhere else ever met their great great great ancestors who fought in the confederacy right. Those people are long dead and gone by eighteen sixty five And if you weren't even born then right now you tell me it's okay. You know you honor people that you don't know that's fine but how do you honor your great great great ancestors and the confederacy and at the same time you dishonor the very ancestors who do know the very ones who raised you your father's your grandfather's and if you're lucky enough you may have met. Get your great grandfather. These people many fathers of these people in Charlottesville many fathers grandfathers and great grandfathers lost lost their lives fighting not confederacy but fighting World War Two. And who are they fighting World War Two the Nazis. So how how do you tell me. You're going to honor your great great great assessors and you're gonNA walk down the streets of Charlottesville side by side with people wearing swastikas we. We went to war against the Nazis. Why are you marching with Nazis and find swastikas now? Now wait always ate. What did the Nazis have to do without heritage right the noxious had no heritage and Charlottesville Virginia? In fact the Nazis weren't even in existence during our civil war. Adolf Hitler was not even born during our civil war. So what were the Nazis doing in Charlottesville. It wasn't about heritage pitch it was about hate and that's what the media failed to tell us because with the media did was they went to City Hall Public Record. Just pull pull the permit and uh-huh they're there to To protest statues took it verbatim and the report. That didn't do the background check now. Was it a small percentage of them that were the ones that were marching with the torches and the swastikas they join into the entire group was the entire group. All about hate them. I was there I would say probably. About Ninety five percent people there were about eight and so there was a few misguided people that were there because they really thought they were protecting their southern heritage and they were lumped in with all these other people that use it as a ruse to sort of set up this hate bright hate meaning today to have a permit how many people went there for that thing. I mean there were. There were more protesters of course as usual. which should be I don't have the exact numbers myself. I'm trying to get them. The they they get skewed my decide the police will tell you one number and the people they were taking another number the guy who is the The killer that ran and those people over James Fields that that guy seemed twenty years old the epitome of a law soul that got sucked into horrible ideology was not very smart and that that must be a large percentage what they prey on the absolutely lost people. And then. Isn't that how it works. Sure and they give you a meaning a reason and heritage to defend and and then everyone status and a status a bunch of crazy names like cyclops. Nighthawk Susan Bro Susan. Bro Is the mother of heather higher. The A girl who was murdered and rundown aginst fields that twenty year old boy threw his life away and it was premeditated he you know he he. He said some stuff on the Internet before even going there and praise Hitler and so forth and so on you know the these are things that we have to be very much aware of and which is why today You know I I'm helping a an organization as an advisor. In fact we're putting on a festival of ideas This year in June. And we've already got ALC- Cornell Weston temple bill an and several other people Who have already committed to doing this festival of ideas to de radicalize the Internet and and there's a there's a new internet platform has been around for over almost two years as already gotten two million members? Call Mines minds like your mind. I've had the guy who created bill. Yeah yeah fantastic guy fantastic. He and other CO founder This thing and they brought me on as an adviser and we're GONNA put on this festival Bringing in some formers on now now the head of the of the NSM ZIM is a very good friend of mine and what does the NSM a national socialist movement the not yet slowly convert those guys as well. He's out Maui. Yeah Yeah because of you know I. I was a contributor j but he saw the light and he's he's a good guy and he's helping to to get others out. You have an amazing ability to forgive people that other folks would write off for life. Other people would think that those people were horrific monsters that aren't worthy of salvation. Don't get me wrong. There are some of those people. There are some horrific monsters on all sides. Who who some of whom will go to their grave being hateful violent and racist or anti Semitic there is no changing them whatsoever? But but I can tell you this if somebody of that of that attitude or that belief you know. They're they're in your here on the spectrum at opposite ends if they're we're willing to sit down and have a conversation no matter how extreme they may be there is the opportunity to plant seed but the important thing is anybody can plant a seed but the follow up with what's important. You have to nurture that seed you must water it. I saw it grows and you you know when you have nothing in common but if you spend five minutes with your worst enemy you will find something in common you will find something Ryan Common. And then you began nurturing those commonalities. Yeah Okay and your and your your closing that gap. So now you're about right here so now you you have formed a relationship you've from here to a relationship and now you began nurturing that relationship you're closing it in and when you get about to hear you found a lot of commonalities and now you've made a friendship all right and when you get there the trivial things that you have in contrast asked such as the color of your skin or whether you go to a church a temple. A mosque or synagogue began to matter less and less. If you begin to see that you know I and I'll be honest the most important thing that you have in any endeavour is your credibility your credibility You only have one opportunity to make especially in in this kind of thing to make a good first impression you may you may have a second or third opportunity to to To impress somebody but you. I only have one opportunity to make a good first impression and most people would judge you by their first impression of you so when I would meet these people I'm as transparent transparent as I can be. I'm honest a lot of them. I let them know where I stand but I'm willing to listen to them. I want to hear why I'm saying enlighten me. Teach me why why I should believe the way you believe in see things. I'm here to learn from you. How did you start the conversation with this National Socialist Movement Guy Savoy the same way? And what was the conversation like with him. Well he believes he believed at the time in the ideology of Adolf Hitler. You know the master race. How was this guy when you met him I met him in two thousand sixteen. He he he just left Last year and he'd been the commander for Laura twenty-seven years that's an amazing gift like the ability to just slowly talk to these people and talk some sense sense into them and the fact that you're willing to spend the time to do that. That is we have to do that. We have to do that. I mean what do we have would. Otherwise we're GONNA self destruct now I will say you know Joe I have been between travel with my parents as a child in the foreign service and today as a professional musician playing all over this country and around the world when you can bind those travels together I have been in a total of fifty seven different from countries on six continents. So I've been from you know three years old all the way to you. I'll be sixty two in March I've been expose all my life. To a wide variety of religions cultures traditions ethnicities from all over. And no matter how far I've gone from the United I states no matter how many people have met I can conclude at the end of the day we all human beings we may practice different. Things have have different cultures different beliefs. We all human beings and one of my very favorite quotes of all time is by Mark Twain. And it's call the travel quote and Mark Twain said travel is fatal to prejudice bigotry and narrow mindedness and many of our people needed solely on these accounts. Broad wholesome charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth. All all wins lifetime and that is so true perhaps if I had not done that travelling and been exposed and things. Would I be doing this today. Maybe not God but I think the future of this are things like like what Bill Ackman is put together this minds dot com People should check it out. MAYES DOT com the oil to blow to change DOT MINES DOT com. They can follow me there at Darul. It was Where is a platform for free speech? Free Free speech and we can come and express your ideas not be You know kicked off from stuff you know there's GonNa be protocol where You have to be able to threaten people and cause them harm and things like that. But you allow people with some of these toxic ideologies to come on and sure mind and then the engaged and we engage them and talk. If you'll be about about politics have you could be about technology. Whatever have you had luck talking to people just directly online because my my perspective is that one of the things that makes this work is that you're very personable and that you're you're just you being around you? You're very nice guy to be around. That probably helped them get closer to you and to appreciate you. That's who I'm talking about because you know if if for example I don't meet somebody one time. And that's you know they're stripping themselves of their Robin Hood. Okay take repeat. Visits in person is is what I'm saying like talking to people online. It's very difficult to get through the people it is but people have watched Or seen things online about me and then have emailed me lattanzio emails people in the clamped Nazi movements. Or whatever you know I appreciate what you said You you you gave this person a fair shake. I wasn't really expecting that from a black person or something like that And it wasn't that I was kissing up somebody no I'm going to be fair and be transparent and because of my credibility that affords me a second visit with them and a third if they didn't like me their first impression on me was pass pass and I say next week. Now I'm done with you. The only person I've ever known or heard of that's been radically converted. Just online was Meghan Phelps Phelps Dino. She isn't sure. Sure I know I I never met Megan. I had conversations with Rachel. Who's crazy is Rachel? Chill the mom or one of the sisters Megan sister. Yeah Megan's very very nice person hard to believe that she was ever locked into the Westboro. Baptist this church and her husband. Her now. Husband actually converted her by talking to her on twitter. Maltese might be the greatest thing that's ever been accomplished on twitter. So do you. You do participate in other social media platforms like facebook or instagram. or any of that. Or do you just use mines. And I'M GONNA focus on minds I think mine's has the best platform Again like I said it's transparent anybody's welcome two million members. Now I think a growing and you know FACEBOOK will kick you offer. Certain things minds does not do that. I mean you know. They won't allow you to threaten. Somebody's somebody that does minds have the same sort of algorithm that directs things towards you that you're interested in that could facilitate people getting upset facebook. Does that yeah and it turns out that most of what people are interested in is. What upsets them? Yeah Yeah No. They don't operate like that I think it's worth anybody to check Out and people get frustrated. I'm getting off facebook because I hate all this arguing starts on and you know you can come here and talk to some. Listen listen people have a hard time getting together for Thanksgiving because of our current political climate where somebody voted for our current president and some other family member did not both that person right People should be able to families should be able to talk about and respect the fact that your brother or sister voted for for our president president. You didn't actually fine. Let's let's discuss it. What impressed you about him? What didn't impress you? Why did you vote for him and do with civil discourse we have lost the art of civil discourse and minds is gonNA restore that? But that's what we're working on the. That's I'm glad you said that that's one thing that I've learned how to do by doing this. PODCASTS learn how to talk to people better learn how to really listen to people and be when I first started this podcast. Ten years ago. I wasn't very good at it. You know it didn't really have any experience doing it. Mostly what I was doing was me talking. I was doing stand up comedy. I was talking to my friends. That's the civil. Social civil discourse like being able to sit down with people and calm each other down and talk and have compassion genuine compassion for each other and just listen to each other is one of the lost arts in human interaction. Because you know what it's because we see only what the person did we. Don't you know in terms of who they voted for or what they believe in what they did. You know Will they joined. We don't see what led them to that and because we don't talk to them right you know when you know. We're we're only interested in interested in the result. Let's go back to Roger Kelly Black people are criminals. Why wh why are they criminals? Well how do you say that well because Darrow. You know there are more blacks in prison than there are whites. He sees the result. Not saying what led up to that right. So that's that's where where we loons. Well it's also it's very difficult for for people to actually have conversations like most people are committing to text messages and emails and occasionally phone calls. That's that's how they interact with each other and then you go out to dinner a dinner at a restaurant. You'll see people sitting across me phones. I mean it's It's one of the worst times for interaction face to face I mean. Ah I've never seen a pie. Chart on the difference between the way human beings talked but there is no question that the amount of people per capita that communicate through through electronic versus the way just talking person to person over the last ten years is radically increased and so has her hostility towards each other and a a lot of ways particularly through those electronic mediums. Hostility through social media is a relatively new thing social media hate mean and these mob groups. Just go after people like. That's that's ten years. Maybe Max Right Two thousand ten and this is a new thing in human history and this what. You're doing what you're talking about sitting down. It's sold school talking to people becoming friends with people speaking. You've got these projects I mean you've if you set this sort of friendship in motion with these people and you've changed the course of their lives and that's a and then they in turn Jankauskas tails. What is that? The Wizard Dragon Fellow. What's that guy doing these days He has to work two or three jobs Because unfortunately unfortunately you know when you have that kind of stigma and you work for a company where the public sees you and they. Oh that's got to do Bricklayer bric brick major So he works Security now and but yeah but there are a lot more of them you know they some of them. If they don't have a young family some of them will come out with me Speak out against their former organization. This guy who's a a prominent Christian pizza lean. Do you know him along the same lines. He's doing that too he's like he's he's people and helping Eddie radicalized He was founder of of a group called life after hate and And there are a lot of those formers who who do that especially if they don't have a young family because oftentimes they can Get ramifications you know for speaking out against the organization rise you taking joint stations and they'll come after you or come after your family things like that so some some fly low under the radar so your book what does it titled. The book is called clandestine spelled with a K.. Fan destined relationships and right now on that that that book is out of print. I'm working on the second edition. Said copy which will have all new stories and and plus a lot of the old stuff and updates? Have you ever done audiobook. No but I think I'm going to do it. Yeah voice man learn giants right now but I have a normal voiced comes and goes I can hear crackle up. Yeah Yeah but you obviously have a booming voice the audio you'll be gone a couple of days I learned I mean that that way. It's always easy to put back in print as well. There's so many people that are digesting audiobooks versus books me included I. I mean I listened to listen to a lot of podcast but I think half half the time I'm in my car. I'm listening to get the idea to do a podcast impetus. Probably no one would ever give me a radio show. No that was And I think I had gotten some offers to do radio shows but it was for like no money and satellite radio kind of a deal for no money and and I had a friend Anthony. CUMIA WHO's on this Show opie and Anthony and he did a radio like an Internet thing in his basement just for fun. He was already on a radio show but he put up a green screen in his basement. And he's kind of a nut and he would get drunk and do Karaoke holding a machine gun like the crazy shit but hilarious and I was like this guy just set up a studio in his basement. Wild is this and so I said well let me just do a little web thing and so me and my friend Brian. We started doing it with a Webcam just in a laptop just talking to people online answering questions and then it started carrying on but then that was ten years ago and it just kept growing and then it became what it is now just by just keep doing it. That's all was I just kept doing it. And and then it went from thousands to millions to just this weird number of people that are listening to it and watching it now to. It's you know because they have a hunger for which which which you're putting out there. Well conversation yeah real conversation like I don't have a agenda. I just want to talk to people like with you. As soon as I got the pitch I was like I. I need to talk to you like what you're doing insane. And an amazing and very very unusual for someone to have that kind of patience and commitment to something like that and to convert these people oh end without judgment and to be able to rationalize with them and talk to them reasonably. These are my fellow American. Yes you know we all we all in in this game together and sometimes people get trapped in a really fucking stupid ideology and they don't they they M- there's a part of their brain. That knows it's dumb. There's a proud of their brain. That knows it's toxic. And they deny that they ignore that they squash it and they tried to avoid thinking about it. And then someone like you comes in life and and you kind of like open this door and enjoy the toxic thing happens on both sides I catch hell from people who look like me not everybody you know but there are people look like me who totally disapprove. Because you're giving these people a platform because king with them. Yes yes you cannot change. Somebody's he's mind by disallowing them to express was on their mind right. You know. That's the argument about D platforming people online online. Right right but then the argument the other way. Is that your radicalising young people. The argument is there's a lot of young people that would go on these social media sites and and and they're impressionable and they don't know any better particularly youtube. They worry about that. Because these youtube videos they have music and its multimedia helling and with a really good narrator you can get people to click this puck and flat earth movement right. Where's that coming from? It comes from a few articulate narrators who put together these these videos on youtube where they're the only ones that get to talk scientists. Don't get to interject stop. That's wrong. That's not how I'll show you know it's like this. Look here's a satellite photo. Look here's a hundred satellite photos. Here's all the satellites. Take pictures of the Earth. They don't get to do that so these guys they. They'll have this long uninterrupted narrated video. That makes so much sense. You listen to this guy got. He's he's changed my God the world's Flat I can't believe in fucking lining. Yeah so there's hundreds of thousands of people that believe in the flatter now because they've been radicalized because they've been converted by these multimedia things like youtube this is what people worried about in terms of radicalizing them towards hateful ideology says well I'm using that word radicalize because because That's exactly spot on because you know we wasn't until recently that would begin using that word domestically we know for a while there were only using it For for Middle Eastern type people you know when when somebody like dylann roof Do what he did. We didn't say he was radicalized. Is that You know he's he must have mental issues but it's both isn't it. Well sure I mean but he walks in the house and start shooting. People has mental issue. Yes but but they but they have see what what allowed them become radicalized. Maybe those mental issues. Yes you know But but we don't we don't say radicalized when it comes to our own you know we're we're we're ashamed of it so many different code words for example. What do you call These groups of white eight people who go out in the woods and practice maneuvers and survival of stuff survivalist stuff. They're like anti-government kind of a paramilitary. Yeah like What do they call them? Militias exactly right. Okay militias all right. What do you what do you call the same type of things things with black people? I didn't know the Hannam out there. What do they call them? They call the militants. Oh the Black Panthers Yeah Okay Okay right right so what you know that same thing right but one term has had more of a negative connotation malicious she's got a pretty negative connotation not as negative as militant. Yeah yes now it seems to me. Let's let's take back when when Obama got into office. We have a new political party. came out of nowhere. The Tea Party the tea party last time you heard of a tea party was in seventeen. Seventy six what happened to them. Those Tea Party folks are still floating around really sounds the tea party not enough because Obama's gone now. I think out by the time he was before he was even gone. Didn't they WANNA part because he got a second term you know didn't quite work. But their their slogan was take our country back take our country back. Okay Take America back. That is a clan slogan Okay and it was a code term for the tea party that that was a claiming call and and people it resonated with a certain ilk of people that slogan started in nineteen fifty four with the clan ninety fifth before when Brown versus the board of Education desegregated schools. You can go on Youtube Klan rallies with these wizards and dragons and with the burning cross and balancing using. We'll take our country back. I'm not GonNa let my little white boys and girls go to school with little nigger children and Blah Blah Blah got take our country back back to segregation Asian integrated right so I would ask these tea party people. Why are you using clan slogan Unindo? Daryl that's not what we mean I said well you don't say take our country back from who you don't take our country back to what you say. Take our country back. Oh kind an open ended. I thought you know what are you trying to say. Oh you mean is we'll take our country back from the Democrats take it back to Republican rule. Okay that's fine. Why not say that we see exactly the using an already used slogan right? Hey case exactly so hard against to those people right. And here's the thing. Last time I checked Bill Clinton was a democrat. Jimmy Carter was a democrat. Where was the tea party where was take our country back and then all of a sudden black guy gets in the White House and they start screaming take our country back right right you can put two and two together? Where were you guys? Eight years ago four years ago. It's now shut up. Martin Luther King We. He had to fight fight for decades to have Martin Luther King Day. There was a lot of resistance to that. Do you realize that a lot of the resistance was the fact that Martin Luther King is is the only American man in this country to have a holiday all to himself ran. Guess what he's he's black. What do you mean by a holiday autumn South Lumber Day Clemson un-american of that's right okay we kinda was when he became Martin he thought he first of all Columbus didn't even land here and he was like basically serial killer serial killer he was a rapist and pillinger and he didn't hidden discover the damn thing? What did they call an indigenous peoples day? Now how how do you discover something when you get there. People are already there be real real well not only that like why did it take until basically the later. Latter half of the twentieth century before people came to grips with the fact that he was in atrocious. Human being being like when we were kids when I was in a little bit younger than you. I'm fifty two. When I was in highschool Louis Columbus sailed the ocean blue into the Santa Maria? Right right neither Maria. This was this was a guy who was an explorer. He was going there for Spain. He was and then when you get older and you you learn these missionaries accounts accounts of the horrific crimes and we still celebrate them. Yeah well I mean. Do we sort us out. And we are done celebrating still have Columbus Day. It should got a day now they call it that but on the counter still says Columbus Day. Does it not on the apple calendar as yeah. I don't think so. Maybe I'll head of his time. I think it says Indigenous Peoples Day. Now okay. That's wrong fucking should should now so we used to have two white guys who each had a holiday all to himself Americans who those guys we used to have Maybe before your time doing my time George Washington Day. And Abraham Lincoln Day. Really those days you remember that I. I don't remember them. Yeah and then. We had too many holidays so they combine those two days in one day COR presidents okay. We'll do any holidays holidays productivity exactly so yeah so it took those away and combine them so now the only American man who has a holiday to himself as a black man and they can't handle it. Martin Luther King and now we had to fight for decades to give this male holiday when he gave his life to bring this country together. Yet we give a holiday to Christopher Columbus who as you pointed out was a murderer a serial killer a pitcher a rapist who didn't discover a damn thing. Marketing never murdered pillaged raped. But yet we don't want to give him a holiday you know so. That's the equity in this country and I'll tell you something else now. There are a lot of people who would disagree with me. And that's okay okay. We're Americans we can disagree all individuals but there are people who will agree with me also and I've been saying this now for twenty two years one of the things that will help us to to advance into the twenty first century. We are behind the Times We we need at this point to get rid of black history month now. I know a little bit of people listening GonNa Freak out when Domino bubba let. Let me explain all right for the longest time we needed black history month Black history was not being taught in our schools. Now you remember when you moment ago that when you were in In school you know Columbus was a hero looked PAM etc.. And then you go to college you learned and otherwise. When I was in high school it was not in our textbooks that we had internment camps which avenues Americans? I did not learn that until I got to college like. What are you kidding me right? I didn't believe it. Now in the textbooks behind the times okay so anyway Wouldn't have black history. What we had was called American history in might as well have been called white history? 'cause that's all it was us and and even in some cases white should be given credit for things they did not invent after places did not discover But we knew Oh. We were told at home that but not in schools so we had to fight fight fight and finally we got one week. It was called Negro Negro History Week. Carter G. Woodson created that and schools had Negro history week one week a year. We continue fighting harder and harder. Finally finally we got one month knows. Give us everything that went down right. Dole it out little by little so we got that one month shortest month of the year. Right February Tori no coincidence but but but we accepted it for two reasons. It was the birth month of two of our heroes. Heroes Frederick Douglas. And Abraham Lincoln right so we accepted that and then we stopped fighting and that it was a mistake on our part we became complacent and now is my belief that black history month has become detrimental to to us to all of us white and black. I'll tell you why yes. We needed it for a certain period of time because we had nothing. But here's the problem. We only studied black history. In February and h February. We study the same half a dozen people. Martin Luther King Rosa Parks Harriet Tubman Booker. T. Washington George Washington carver and one or two other ones. By the time we get through half a dozen up our month is over. We did our black thing. Let's move on right yet. We studied Benjamin Franklin. Eli Whitney Alexander. Graham Bell Thomas Edison F F Scott Fitzgerald Francis Scott Key all year long. We're constantly reinforcing. What they did all year long we never forget who flew the kite and the lightning? Hit the key T.. And we have we all know. It's Ben Franklin all right but yet if you ask some kid in June say who was a Harriet Tubman? Oh Yeah Yeah Yeah I remember her. Yeah she was that lady who refused to give up on the bus. They got confused with Rosa Parks. Because there's been no reinforcements since February and then next year next February it's the same half a dozen people all right so you're constantly. I'm not taking anything away from those people. They were some of the greatest all right but you're constantly reinforcing that there were only six or seven black people in Seoul country. Wherever did anything? What about the guy who invented the traffic light? What about the person who invented the ironing board and so many other black discoveries and inventions? Oh we didn't have time for that. We only have one month. You got to talk about Ben. Franklin all year long you know. Women's history month is March. We get rid of that to take these things out out of those months and put them where they belong under the umbrella of American history and teach them all year long that we're kids get accustomed to this and they learn and they have more respect for each other. I remember when I was a kid. Miss America beauty contest there only two categories and was all white women. Blacks were not allowed to join with them to compete in Miss America. All the judges were white males two categories the evening gown evening. Wear and the swimsuit that was it. Women were objectified they're sets objects. They didn't have talent than need to write an essay or short else they can do. They just looked at and touch on that. So black women were deemed not beautiful enough to To compete in Miss America plus. They didn't don't want any white man. Judging a black woman in a bathing suit or whatever so black women began having low self esteem because they were told that. We're not as beautiful as these other women. So what did we as black people do to elevate the esteem self esteem of black girls. We created the Miss Black America beauty pageant give them something to aspire too and that worked for awhile finally finally Miss America the bid one. I came to its senses and opened his doors. I don't know the exact year But I guess it was back in the seventies seventy sometime over his doors to all American women regardless of their ethnicity color. Whatever as long as they were American they could compete? And since that time we've had we've had more than one Miss America who's been black starting with Vanessa Williams and then w Turner I if you want it. Who are the ones since that time so now because Miss America has come into the time we can get rid of black of Miss Black America? We don't need any anymore. We got the main one. When are we going to come to American history We need to get rid of black month. We just we just finished the first black American president. What are we going to do with Obama or we put him in in in the February box. He's black only talk about him in February talk about in March and September because he's black history put him in February. I W- I lost for words man. It's it's crazy how we how we do this listen. We claim to be the greatest nation on the face of this earth earth. I have a problem with that and don't get me wrong. I'm a patriot. I love my country but I do have a problem with that statement. And I'll say that perhaps yes. We are the greatest nation face of this earth technologically. After all we put a man on the moon we invented the technology to carry that man to the moon safely and allow him to walk around get back in his Lunar Module and come back birth safely. We invented that technology. Not only that win win win. Neil Armstrong was up walking around and made that famous One small step for man one giant leap for mankind quote. We were able to talk with him. Live all the way from earth NASA headquarters all the way to the to the Moon live via satellite radio phone. We invented that technology Americans. Everybody you know has a cell. Oh phone everybody you know has email hit a few words that if you numbers hit send. You're talking to people next door in Nevada or in Africa China Australia wherever you WanNa talk anyone in the face of this earth we invented that technology. So how is it that we as Americans can talk to people as far away as the moon or anywhere on the face of this earth yet so many of us have difficulty talking to the American who lives right next door unless he or she is a different color a different religion a different ethnicity persuasion. A different whatever it seems to me that before weaken chorus of the greatest our ideology needs to catch up to our technology and when we get ourselves up. They're both of them up there then. We can truly brag about how great we are because we are living in the twenty first first century. We are living in space age times yet. They're still so many of us. Thinking was donated minds. What is this doing and the twenty first century? What what was it doing in any century but yet twenty-first-century you've gotta be kidding me? Well it brings me back to what you were saying earlier that the problem is education the the problem is ignorance in the the solution to education is ignorance and this is sort of the same thing when it comes to radicalising realizing young people online right one of the reasons why that works at all is because he's young. People are susceptible to other ideas because their intelligence immune in systems very low. They don't have a lot of data they don't have a lot of education they don't have a lot of information and they don't have a lot of perspective so they can be stake be tricked the roped in yes and this is this is this is the same with what you were talking about with. Not Trusting your neighbors because there there are different nationality or different color and not communicating with people. That are any different than you and then being toxically tribal. It's all kind of the same thing it's like. There's a lack of understanding understanding of what the consequences of that are globally. And in personally to your own life. Well again you know Back back to minds. My mind is going to help those young kids get get those perspectives with. We'll have people who are the experts and stuck in those kids into to enter these things I I know a former Jihadi a recruiter for Isis. Who who who who used to recruit kids to put them in Isis here in the states? Okay get him Jeff Scoop the guy from from the the NSM. He knew what to do in order to lure people into his this movement was the Nsm a national socialist movement. Nazis same Tom. Yeah so these people are willing to help on minds and help Point point these different things with little telltale signs as to what to look for You know you know so parents can can spot what. Oh this isn't sound right. You buy blah. Get my kid. It does give kids a better perspective. Minds have a video component to it or it will it will. It will absolutely my working on that now. Yeah see that that is For we'll we'll better. I mean whether it's correct or not. That's apparently the people that are really worried about people being radicalized online. They're more concerned with that than anything else with video. There's something something about the compelling videos music in the video and yes yes because he play video games all day lures them in but You know back to what I was saying before I finish it. What's happening that that we we don't see in the media is this when I was a kid The black population in this country was twelve percent. Eleven point nine twelve percent native Americans just under one percent Hispanic People Latino people two and three percent Asians four percent Why people oh eighty four eighty six percent so white people of the supremacist type mindset their being their biggest nemesis? Of course we're black people at twelve percent. WHOA that's way too much? You know. They didn't care anything about native Americans. Your attitude was at just one percent sticking reservation. Forget about them right and that's where these negative terms come from. You know people don't realize are are are insulting terms you know when you say somebody has gone off the reservation Shen. You've heard that term before. Yeah I thought of that. Exactly exactly yeah. You see what I'm saying you don't realize it's a it's a negative term. Yeah somebody says that's not your cotton picking business okay. Who picked cotton right right okay? I thought it was a nice way. Saying mother fucking freaking. Yeah Yeah Yeah yeah or or or when somebody comes in the wrong side of the tracks. Yeah that one's obvious railroad. Track divided on one side was on the the other. The wrong side. Of course was the black side Anyway so the biggest nemesis supremacist mindset. We're black people. Twelve percents too much right now today. Black people we remain at twelve percent. We've grown twelve point six. If you look at two thousand seventeen consensus we have not grown twelve percent. Native Americans are still at one percent. Asians are at six percent Hispanics have surpassed us. Is there like a thirteen percent or something just above thirteen percent. So let's just take twelve percent black thirteen percent Hispanic let alone on six percent Asian or whatever that's twenty five percent non white this is happening okay and as well predicted by I twenty forty two which is twenty two years from now this country for the first time in history will be fifty percent white after two percent it non White Don Don Don Don right so the story you've seen is true. That is a very hard pill to swallow for people of that mindset. They're becoming unhinged and in an disconcerted. You know we use the they will not replace US thing right precisely. You're exactly now you're getting it exactly. And that's that's what they call the Browning of America And the white genocide and see what they're doing is stepping up recruitment efforts now because one one of the one of the main problems in this country or the main concerns is illegal immigration. So these are saying. Hey you know. We're against illegal immigration to. Oh come come join US getting on a legitimate bandwagon but when they say illegal immigration is a code word code word for people from South America in Mexico West Africa. Okay because there are plenty of people here in this country right now. Who are here from Canada? Nobody gives a fuck about Canadians. Coming exactly Canadians or or people from the UK or Eastern Europe speak perfect English they slide right in and it doesn't even matter it'd is this not if you're you know the he's not season Clampitt will tell me Daryl. I don't want my grandkids to Brown. Well you know if if your kid were to marry somebody from Canada the grandkids are GonNa be white or the UK Eastern Europe. It'll be white but if they let their grandkids marry somebody from El Salvador or Guatemala caller and Julia. Oh haven't forbid right. Heaven Forbid Oh is it trouble so what happens is this they come join us. You know we're GONNA take country back we're Build that wall Blah Blah Blah. So people people see the landscape changing in. Oh and so they're gonNA join these groups and the hoop doesn't do anything. So then what happens. They say you know what the clan can't do it the NSM can't do it. I'll do it myself. And that's when they walk into a synagogue Luma boom or into a black shirt boom well. Passover boom okay. These are called Lone wolves now we have intelligence agencies or whatever that can could infiltrate some of these groups and get in there and get all the stuff and foil those plots you know gather intelligence but you cannot infiltrate alone wolf off. There's only one person right and as we get closer and closer to twenty forty two. Unfortunately we're GONNA see more and more of his lone wolves and that's what we have to watch out for you notice. Every time one of these white supremacists types gets Busted and they're gonNA raise home. What did they find a whole cache of automatic automatic weapons and all that kind of stuff? That's where the race war when they track racism over the last one hundred years. It's a decline. It's at a measurable decline but not enough. What could be done to accelerate that declined? What do you think can be done to sort of start? Start Teaching stepping. Civics SP- Spike up the civics in elementary school and I went to high school by civics. What do you mean exactly you know? Our country is so diverse. Now we need to learn about about the history of everybody in our country and everybody's contributions to making this a great country White Black Hispanic women whatever our our country is truly a melting pot and we and we need to treat it as such and give everybody credibility so you know this person you know looks different than me but but he contributed something that I need. I look different than him but I contribute something that he needs that kind of thing so we have more mutual respect for one another. You know the the older generations are going to die out but we have to stop them from proliferating their bs to these young generations now and we do this in schools schools right when when I was in junior high school which they don't have any more right to have middle school now Sex Education was being introduced parents. Were freaking out. Oh my God. I don't want my kid learning that. Well guess what they didn't want their kids going to school learning about sex but yet these parents were not teaching their kid about sex at home. Either they don't want their kids learning it. How you going to stop a kid about sex? If you don't let your teachers in school educate them properly and you're not willing to do it at home you can still learn it. And where where's he or she learn it out in the street and then what are you GonNa do when your kid comes home pregnant. You're going to be all freaked out so if you want to take sex ED. When I was in junior high school we had to bring a note from your parents? It's thing was okay. Yeah Yeah Okay. And then you had like a little small class five or six people taking sex ed today is part of the regular curriculum and as a result kids today are better informed about venereal disease. STD's family planning contraception and and all these kinds of things because they no longer ignorant. They have more information. All right The same thing has has the taboo on sex. Education has been lifted okay. We need to lift the taboo on racism in schools and talk about got it at an early age. How much time are they allocating towards teaching people how to accept diverse groups and how to accept how to? It had a fight against racism. I mean is that something that's taught. It seems like that should be a core curriculum in private schools where I see it as mostly in private schools. I don't see in public. The schools which is very unfortunate parents. Parents seem seemed to run the schools. You know if if you're a kid for example you you send your kid to school And you find out your kid is not learning what you think he or she should learn. What do you do you take them out of that school and put him in another your school right and they don't learn it? They put him in a private school. They don't learn it there. You Go home you home school them and so I'm for you know a on. A lot of schools are very loathe to do to step on shells with parents. You know they don't want to upset the parents. Whatever but they need to? The parents are not the teachers the teachers or the teachers but it seems that if you could explain to kids how people get radicalized. Explained to kids how what happens. Benzon line how they draw you in. What's the appeal of being part of a tribe which is a big part of it right? A big part of being like a gang run same thing that attracts kids games. Like everybody's in it all together. It's like it's in a tight group right. Yeah I mean that that gets people in when they draw you in like if the kids said all this shit they talk about seventh grade. I know what you're doing I mean just dabbling. They're better prepared. Yes that information exactly. Yeah and so schools. One thing academic at an early age the next thing I fault our churches. Well when I say churches I mean religious institutions which would include synagogues etcetera And you know I hate to get down on the clergy. But I'm telling you they they are. They have accountability that they're not accepting And don't get me wrong. I'm Christian stuff and I was a deacon in my church at one time. But here's the thing whether you're Jewish catholic-protestant the Protestant Mormon whatever you have some form of Sunday school after you go down in the basement in in your ear facility in your your church or temple or whatever and your and your Sunday school lesson when you're four five years old they teach you that We're all God's children God made a Rainbow Right and we accept that at four or five years old and then as we grow older we reach puberty and adolescence. Whatever we move upstairs to the big congregation and now we're sitting up there with the adults The the clergy. The rabbi the priests administer the pastor the reverend what the whatever no longer teaches at Sunday school lesson. Stop saying upstairs. We're all God's children. What do you think would happen if the reverend of the priests of the congregation went Sunday morning? Hey folks would s okay for blacks and whites to marry. It's okay for juice. Mary Catholics half. The congregation will get up and leave leave. And they wouldn't be putting their money in the in the collection plate because they're not hearing what they wanna hear right and because it has not been continued that that Sunday school lesson needs to be continued upstairs so adults feel. Hey you know we're all rainbow. We all are God's children but the priest is not say that or the reverend not said that anymore because he's afraid of walking on eggshells and stopping the flow of money coming into ties offerings. In the collection plate people be changing churches roaches or firing him right. And then. Your kid is Let's say let's say let's say I'm Catholic and Now I'm in twelfth grade and I'm going to the senior prom saw my mom says so. Who who who take into the senior prom? I say I'm going to take Susan Gobert Yeah you know Susan's the nice girl. But but don't you think you should take a A nice capital mom. But I mean but we're we're all God's children yeah we are but yeah exactly but it's not a God word right but as a man word yes. God was perfect if we if we are to believe in the concept of God God than we are to believe that God did not make any exceptions in butts and mistakes loopholes. He was perfect from the word. Go but is a man word. It's an exception. God was perfection. Man is exception all right. So that's what happened. You know now if so that's why The clergy does not continue that Sunday school lesson. They're afraid afraid of losing money. In other words they put. They put money above morality and they should be held accountable. Well well it seems like there's a lot of problems it's not it's not one thing it's not just clergy. It's not just the schools it certainly the parents and the parents were taught. So it's the parents parents. It's the continuing the rights but but the biggest herited one at one of the most the most influential unless you're atheists of course the the most influential Authority in in your life is your church. Everybody let's church the kid unless you're atheists whatever so that weighs very heavily atheist. Then how do you reach the atheists agnostics atheists and agnostics have excellent morals. A lot of them do They're the they have Churches called ethical societies and smoking. And how many of them before they don't believe in God. It was nothing that I advocate. But I'm saying that they they know right from wrong. And and you find less controversy and and and racism and more acceptance in these places. 'cause there's about ethics and morality more so than division. Why do you have a White Baptist Church and a Black Baptist Church? What's that all about battle should be baptised? It's the same King James Bible you know And why you know why aren't they. Aren't they pushing the same lesson in Sunday school. Did they preach up upstairs. They're not concerned about. Tell me a little little four and five year olds they were all got your rainbow you know why because a little four and five year olds. Don't don't have any money so they're not getting any money in the collection plate there. It doesn't matter it matters. where the money is you? You say what you gotTa say to get the amount of money that you need. That's I don't go to church so that's an alien concept to me but at sad if that's the lesson of that's the way. They're structuring their lessons in a church or synagogue or temple. That's how they're doing it. They're structuring structuring their lessons to achieve more donations nations. Look at these megachurches. Yeah we'll look at them. And how many times do some of these priests and preachers get in trouble. Days as those megachurches always seemed to me to be run by cult leaders that are keeping it together. They're just keeping it together. Staying within the structure of traditional Christian. Want to believe leaving something. Yes so why not believe in the clan when I believe I you know and whatever yes yeah yeah yeah it's tribal we have have you intense desire to stay tribal but we've got to consider ourselves a tribe of the human race exactly the human race that can NBA taught to people. It can. Yeah I think what you're where you're proving and what you're doing by. Your amazing accomplishments is showing that that even in the most radicalized people the K. K. K.. And the National Socialist Movement you're converting people. Well I'm GonNa Hook you up with some friends of mine. I Jeff Scoop who was the the recent leader of the NSM Arno Michaelis who co-founded Alive after eight and he spends You know his whole life dedicated to de radicalize in people Please do talk absolutely and you can get their perspective. What what got them in right but more importantly what got them out? What were the triggers that got them out after years of hating people and doing this you you know what what made them see something differently? And how can that be parlayed into into other entities. I'm hoping that just hearing it from someone who's maybe struggling with that. Maybe maybe they live in a very tribal community or a some sort of a toxic environment. Their family dragged him in and they're they're really trying trying to figure out how long they can do this and how they can get out. And what's the steps to get out. Were not only getting out but you know there has to be And here's another thing that I provide for these people when they come as a Bra. I provide support because oftentimes you know these people if they come from a family that that belong to these groups You know the And they decided to leave the group whatever they still got their family or whatever but if if they come from a family that that was not racist for example maybe may have been dysfunction or they just read the wrong book or made friends with the wrong person and went down that rabbit hole or whatever and they they give an oath and they joined these groups. The family disowns them you. Ah You don't want your kid around your house If you have black friends Jewish friends and he's over there insulting them you know you you stay away from the South along my kid right right so so their family becomes that group right right. You know to the blood oath you know we got your back you got are bad we are your family just like gangs gangs. Okay Yeah and then finally you come to your senses and you see how crazy it was and you quit you you get out well now. You're out there swinging the wind right because your biological family stood as you have disgraced them. Your old friends from high school found out. You've gone down that road. They don't WanNA associate with if you could you have that. That's dench that stigma attached to you. you may be an x clan member but that s clamber will always precede your title. You know like for example David Duke He belongs to all kinds of different. White supremacist groups. But whenever you see him him listed in the media's x clan leader David Duke Blah Blah Blah. It's never just David Duke. That title clan leader It follows it. was you and people you know. Look down on you for that. You can't go Eurogroup. You've betrayed them. You know so. They want nothing to do with views to beat you up or something and so now you're out here can go to your family. Your friends have disowned you. You turn to alcohol or drugs or some other gang. It's that nurture that Baloney right so they need something there to support them. And that's also where I come in where you know I I give them a chance to give something to believe lieven help their self esteem etc Dan. That's very important dare for anybody's list and right now what what is the best way for them to find out more. What's the best way for them to take a step? What website would you point of? Dude you point to your minds account. Yes I want them to mind. Dot Com and UNCHANGE DOT Mines Dot Com and Daryl Davis Dot COM D. A. R. A. Y. L.. Only one are Daryl Davis DOT COM. Listen what you've done amazing and what your your message the way you handle yourself the way you've managed to infiltrate trait those groups. Just talk sense to them and convert them. It's it's very inspiring and very humbling. And thank you. I really appreciate being here man. I really my pleasure spreading your message. Let's consider this part one. Yes let's do it again. I would love to thank you. Thank you very much daryl. Pleasure bye everybody. Thank you everyone for tuning into into the show and thank you to our sponsors. Thank you to Ziprecruiter. The smartest way to hire see. Why ziprecruiter is effective for businesses of all sizes? Trust Ziprecruiter for free and our web address ziprecruiter dot com slash rogan. It is no wonder why four out of five employers who post on Ziprecruiter recruiter getting quality candidate within the first day. It's because Ziprecruiter is the shit and you can try it for free. What yes go to ziprecruiter DOT COM flash Rogan? That's ZIPRECRUITER DOT COM slash R. O. G. A. N. WE'RE also brought to you by four sigmatic and they're delicious coffee coffee and this lion's Mane Liquor always keep right by my desk. I love the Every single batch is third party tested in a lab for heavy metals allergens bad bacteria yeasts moulds Michael Toxins and pesticides before it gets in your hands. 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539: Daryl Davis | A Black Man's Odyssey in the KKK Part One

The Jordan Harbinger Show

1:05:21 hr | Last month

539: Daryl Davis | A Black Man's Odyssey in the KKK Part One

"Special thanks to starbucks for sponsoring this episode of the jordan harbinger. Show coming up next on the jordan harbinger. Show if you find yourself in a culture or society with which you're unfamiliar and you apply those five values to those people. I can guarantee you. The navigation will be much more smooth than much more positive so essentially i just white supremacist as another culture and i applied those values. And that's what allowed me entrance into that world. Welcome to the show. I'm jordan harbinger on the georgian harbinger. Show because the stories secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people in depth conversations with people at the top of their game astronauts and entrepreneurs even the occasional mafia enforcer neuroscientist or undercover agents and each episode turns our guests wisdom into practical advice that you can use to build a deeper understanding of how the world works and become a better critical thinker. If you're new to the show or you're looking for a handy way to tell your friends about the show we've got episodes starter packs. The starter packs are collections of top episodes organized by topic. That'll help new listeners. Get a taste of everything that we do here on the show. Just visit jordan harbinger dot com slash. Start he gets started work. Help somebody else get started. And of course. I always appreciate it when you share the show and one of the ideas behind. The show is not just waiting to see what our society becomes. But actually shaping our society and today's guest is doing just that in a way. That's pretty damn unique. Daryl davis is a jazz musician whose hobby is making friends with klu klux klan members. And it's a bit of a strange pastime even more strange because darryl is black you don't have to know much about the kkk to know that typically being friends with people of color not really towards the top of their list. Darryl is an incredible guy. He played piano for chuck berry of the inventor of rock and roll by the way for over thirty years. He's been that scene for quite a long time. Made his mark there and in his closet next two sheets of music and probably some sparkly sequence shirts or pants. He's got clansman. Robes given to daryl after his friendship with those clansmen inspired those men to leave the clan today. Darryl is at least partially responsible for over two hundred members turning in their hoods and we're going to hear how this all came to be now how many people will color do you think have a certificate of friendship from the klu klux klan. I'm guessing just one and he's here with me today. This is a phenomenal conversation. That i really enjoyed. Darryl is one charming dude as you'll soon see and if you're wondering how he managed to book all these great folks. These people are in my network. Reach out i get to know him. I know you probably don't have a podcast your own. But if you want to learn these same networking skills for business or personal reasons. I'm giving them away for free jordan. Harbinger dot com slash. Course is where you can find it. The same system software in tiny habits that i use and by the way most of the guests on our show they subscribe to the course they contribute to the course. Come join us. You'll be smart company where you belong. Now here's daryl davis looked at the documentary and i watched all those videos that you sent me and i just have to say it is. I've been wanting to do this for a long time. In the meantime you've really like blown up big time. And i love to see that i mean it makes sense because who doesn't want to meet the man who's so god damn charming that people leave the klu klux klan to become friends with although technically they become friends with before they leave the clan which is kind of. That's probably the most interesting part right. It's not that they come out and go. Oh i'm gonna meet somebody who's open minded past. I mean you're the catalyst for them leaving the impetus give them different ideas. You know that they can workout themselves. You know. I don't want to tell anybody. Hey you know you need to get out of this. this is wrong about. Gimme your robe. Oftentimes the media. They'll say black musician converts that's number of kkk or white supremacists. And i didn't convert anybody. I am the impetus for over two hundred to make up their own minds to convert themselves. Because i've given them reason to think about other things that make more sense than what they're currently doing till over. Two hundred have announced their membership in part. Because of you. So does that count the chapter of the kkk that have fallen apart disintegrate it because you've befriended their leadership. Okay so that's because what people don't i've heard some critics say. Oh well you know one at a time. That doesn't do anything but that's not really how it works. I mean if you're becoming friends with a grand dragon or an imperial wizard or are these other higher ranks. There's dozens of people below them. That go if that guy that i looked up to for the last fifteen years. If he's saying this is kind of horse shit. And he's friends with daryl davis. What am i doing right now. This is simon says right but also some of the leaders of when they leave they dissolve the group others. They leave and you know the second in command takes over or whatever so they may retain some of the membership but yeah i do believe in and went out of time because even with out of time you know this guy joined because his buddy joining us we hit the buddy talked him into it and now his buddies left so i might as well leave. That happens also. It becomes like the snowball effect while there have been quite a number of them as individuals. You know there's also been that attrition. You know a moss or more than one because the leader left or some friend left and then you dad gets out in his kids. Get out right. Yeah there's been a couple of of interesting stories there that that research and we'll get to those in a second. We should probably back up a little bit because the movie. The documentary accidental courtesy and willing to that in the show notes is a great watch. It starts off with the story of you. Lending a guy your bus. So that him and his friends can drive down to a klan rally. So you like just to paint the picture of everyone. An african american man lent your bus to a group of kkk members. So they could get to a klan rally and just maybe explain you know your thought process. here listen. I don't support the jj at all. I don't support that ideology. But i support people have been the right to believe as they wanna believe as long as they don't cross the line and hurt people and to show to prove that i will stick up for somebody else's rights has also led to people just like that sticking up for mine so to give you a little background. That klan group was based in the city called frederick maryland which is about an hour and twenty minutes outside of washington. Dc so they would you go to. Some bus rented a rental company there and rent a bus to go outta town so that they could ride together for one of their out of town rallies or something some other city what had happened was leader called me. And he said hey. Do you know of any Bus companies down your way. Your county That rent buses. I said no. I have my own bus. You know what's going on. I have a bus bustling from my band. He explained that the company that he normally rent from refused to rent from him. Now because every time they got the bus back there were denson. It from people throwing rocks brian glasses. You know they knew was the clan in that bus so you know for insurance purposes. You know they didn't want to rent anymore did to him. And so he's trying to go to another county where maybe is named might be a little lesser known or something. Yeah he's asking me. I said well you know. Where's your Your rally and He told me. And then i said what day he told me. I looked at my calendar. And i wasn't doing anything that day and i said okay. We'll i'll go watch the rally i listen. Why don't you just take my bus. He started laughing because he thought it was joking with him. And i said i'm serious You're gonna let your bus to take my plan to a rally. i said. Yeah he says. I never heard of such. I said i'm not joking. And he looked what what do i. Oh you are rent from you. I say no. You don't own anything just you know. Bring it back with gas as well. Okay so then He and one of his guys came down and got the bus. There were a lot of funny things surrounding that because this was an unpublicized rally. They were just going to show up and walked down a main street. In their rosen hood you know and so forth so nobody knew they were coming except the police because we have to have a permit to do any kind of like little parade thing not nice my secretary who's white at the time. I only mentioned that not that it matters to me and my girlfriend at the time we had gone down to the to the spot where they were gonna come while the police were all like on every corner up and down the parade route so we show up. I'm standing around my girlfriend and my secretary walked away. 'cause they both smoked or something as they walked away. I don't smoke they. They went over there. As i'm standing there on the corner and a couple of cops behind me and they're like talking to each other. Keep looking back at me. And i know what was happening. There were hoping that. I would cross the street and go about my business wherever i was going before the clan showed. This guy doesn't see the kkk walking down the road. It would be awkward right exactly exactly and here. I am just standing there. Lights changing up still standing there. So one of them you know walks over to me and says How you doing sir. And i said i'm doing fine. How are you and he says waiting across the street. I said no and he says what are you waiting for. I said the same thing you are. I'm here for the klan rally. What what do you do. yeah. I'm the driver and he says What would that be i said. Don't you know what you're waiting for. And he said well. I'm trying to find out why your i'm trying to be vague deliberately. Daryl come on yeah and so He wasn't getting anything for me. And i said i'm waiting for the klan. And he like with. Like i was crazy. You how how does this guy know right. Yeah so then. He walked over to my girlfriend. And and my secretary and says ladies all know you know what are you waiting for. And they said the clan and he said how did you find out about that and they pointed me so he didn't know what to do just walks back to his partner because he wasn't get anything out of me and then this lady she was a sergeant at the time she knew who i was she shows up and they all you know. Hey sarge about baba to another officer who knew who you were showed up to join the cops. Okay just checking all the points. Make sure everybody was in place. And then cars going by vans. We're going by their like looking. See if it's the clan you know. I knew it wasn't. I know what my bus looks like right. So here comes my bus. And they're all these guys at it and the guy who is the leader. he's driving. I wave he chooses horn and waves back and go by. I said that's the plan to the cops. And then i looked at me. Why do blowing the horn waving at you. you know. And then they look at her sergeant as she says if he says that's the and they all get on the radio and radio each okay. They're here by blah blah. And they did was. They went down to the end of the parade route looped around and came back up. Just checking out the route. I before they get there at margin the back to the parking lot right across where we're standing without the beginning of the route and then they all get out of the bus or they'll put on their stuff and then get out of the bus and they proceed to do. The march was pretty pretty interesting but After the rally was over about fifteen of them they brought the bus and they came to the car and they came to my house. I invite back to my house. So they're all sitting back here in my living room. I bought beer for them. I knew what they liked. I bought all this be. I don't drink by button. You'll get him beer all but two of them would drank and talk. These two very quiet very like this. You know you could tell they were like out of their place Very very uncomfortable and they did not understand why everybody else comfortable with me and why their leader allowed this that they couldn't get the head around that you know they didn't say anything other than you wanna be. No now. i'm doing that kind of thing. I might poison them or something ryan so anyway. They eventually quit the plan. Shortly thereafter and mysteriously the leader began receiving hate. Mail care mysteriously. Yeah yeah the same kind of hate mail. He used to send out to other people. He was now on the receiving end. Probably from those two members and some others. You know who did not approve of him with me. And so he. And i had ruined a lot closer and each group has a newsletter they distribute to their members your local activism if who got promoted by blah so anyway he had put one of his guys is a tennessee. Chapter one of the guys down there have found a bus an old school bus that was for sale and he told the leader so the leader looked at some pictures. Whatever and side. They're going to buy it so they bought the bus and drug back. Backup in tennessee to maryland in the newsletter he had put he wanted some members to contribute names that they can put in the marquee of the bus that identified who they were but coded so only like minded folks with no. That's the plan right not you. It is that makes sense. Yeah i was gonna say that seems a little antithetical to wear a hood. Put your name on. But whatever exactly so he calls me and says i tell you what he's doing and he asked me if i had any suggestions to name the bus right so i'll tell you the you know. The relationships are funny so anyway i said well let me think on it you know. He had all kinds of different names. You know he didn't like him. And i said well you know what. Let's see. The plan consider themselves to be a fraternity right right even though they have women in there but also the name. Ku klux klan is a combination of a greek word and an irish word. I started word. Coup close k. u. k. l. o. s. is the greek word for circle all right and clan c. l. a. n. is irish word for You know a close family or close friends like you would be the harbinger. Plan davis plan over scotland ireland. Right so they did was and the original plan members who founded the organization. They were of irish scottish descent. So it took the greek word cook close. They couldn't spell miss k. L. u. s. instead of the s. and then they took me out of the plan and change it to a k. for uniformity indicate so it means circle of close friends or supplement family family circle all right so given the they consider themselves to be trinity. And of course you know. Greeks were very big in the fraternity in fraternities. If you were in college ladders and everything yeah exactly and plus. The name came from a greek term. Said you know how about try coppa to your eye meeting three the greek letter for k. Try cop yeah well he. He never been to college. He couldn't get the concept. Sure i don't know. I don't make any sense to me. Okay oh well so then. They named it special k. You can't do that. It's like a dry not do hardy drag. Well actually no zero that it is right so i told you i would avoid that. Kept the name special k and about four weeks later months later they got a season. These a from kellogg's. Yeah in battle creek michigan. Yeah we don't want our cereal named after a racist hate group. Call us crazy. We're just gonna keep that reserved for the serial. Thanks guys while the kkk. Making friends all over the place right. I mean what's another season desist letter to group like that. Although i guess they do wanna stay on the right side of the law wherever they can especially given the also consider themselves. Yeah that's interesting. that's interesting. Although i. It is ironic though that i could be wrong here but i thought that the irish were not considered white by the english. So it's interesting that they decided that they were going to be the sort of arbiter of who is white in america after not being considered white in their own in the united kingdom earlier. Yeah earlier but then you know you come over here. They look more like each other than they look like. People like me that should inform their entire ideology is bullshit though like oh hey now that moved over here. We look white. And now we're just going to redraw this whole thing because it's all arbitrary. No we're going to set the lines in stone again. Just like they were back in the old country. That was totally unfair for us when we were there. What that just like. Look good to the native americans right. Yeah of course yeah man this the whole thing it just so the irony is so thick you can wade through it barely. Maybe we back up a little bit as well. Tell me about growing up. I mean when you were a kid. You had a bit of a unique childhood as well. So i made sixty three now and i was a child of parents in the us foreign service so my dad's job with the state department you know was to go to foreign countries and foster better relations between the foreign country in the us government. He was a diplomat. And so i started traveling in nineteen sixty one at the age of three. Wow and you go to a country. You're there for two years. You come back home you here for a little while you go to another country for two years back and forth back and forth so i you know. My first exposure to school was overseas. I went to kindergarten first. Grade third grade fifth made seventh grade. My classmates at these schools overseas were from all over the world. Share anybody who had our embassy in those countries. All of their kids went to the same school. So that being my first exposure to you know formal education that was my baseline. That's the first classroom. I saw was multicultural environment. All i need now each time. I'd come back home here. The my own country. I would either be an all black schools or black and white schools in still segregated or the newly integrated ones and there was not the amount of diversity in our clashes back in the sixties. Here right so essentially picture this. You're kinda yum. So i don't know if you remember black and white. Tv remember. Yeah yeah because we had. My parents were the ones that were like. We're not getting one of those new. Tv's for are you know for this room. You can use the old one and it's like it takes a while to warm up you basically like turn it on leave. Go get a snack. Go to the bathroom. Come back and it's sort of like fading in slowly you know when we went from black and white. Tv here to color tv. Ooh wow images opened up a whole new dimension so like three d. today or something you know that experience with reversed for me. When i came back home you know as far as school goes because i was going from color to black and white and riot nine. Yeah i was living in the future. Ten years ahead of my time when i was overseas because august multiculturalism in fact that word didn't even exist back. Yeah you know. I remember when the word came out. It was multi hyphen pokhrel. Nows all one word you know to me. It was just the norm. So i was already living ten years ahead of my time today. Of course you walk into any major city. Usa classroom people from all over. But that was not the case in the nineteen sixties. So i was prepared for it. And i realized a few things when i would be back here and we would be in you. Know in junior high schooler rate school. Whatever in world history class we will be studying the mona lisa eiffel tower berlin wall the pyramids the sphinx. And all these other things. I've been to all those than i've been inside the pyramids in the things i've been at the eiffel tower. I stood five feet. Mona lisa in paris in the museum. You know all that kind of stuff. And i realized that most of the people sitting around me would never see those things other than the pitchers in our textbooks so then i really began to appreciate the fact that i travel so much. It didn't make me better than anybody else by any means. But it gave me a broader perspective and i was awesome things in the history books. That weren't true. They were not accurate. Because i've been there and that's not what it was in the book you know you're listening to the jordan harbinger show with our guest. Daryl davis we'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by purple mattress. Doesn't it seem like the world is against us from getting a good night's sleep this time of year. Our bedroom is getting super stuffy. Super hot trying to get this fixed. But in the meantime it's been sweltering a little bit hard to sleep especially with blankets. 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Ten promo jordan ten for ten percents off any order of two hundred dollars or more purple dot com slash jordan. Moco jordan ten terms apply. This episode is also sponsored by borough furniture. Borough is setting a new standard in furniture with easy to move modular designs. Timeless american mid-century and contemporary scandinavian design and premium durable materials like responsibly. Forested hardwood top grain italian leather and reinforced metal hardware. There's a lot of pressure when it comes to picking the right furniture for your space. You got an eight floor. Walkup a narrow staircase that's brutal but burrow has tons of options for you boroughs in house design team takes of research driven approach to make sure their furniture fits your lifestyle which means simple mounting instructions for their index wall shelves tool free assembly process. Instead of warehouse. Stores and high pressure showrooms. Borough replaced them with an easy to use website. Where you get to create an customize your own furniture without leaving the house free shipping on every order no matter how large small and the borough team is always available to lend a hand from custom orders up to rescheduling delivery. I wonder if they're down to carry your furniture up eight flights of stairs thanks again to burrow supporting the show. Listeners can get seventy five dollars off their first order at borough dot com slash. Ats that's borough b. u. r. o. w. dot com slash j h s for seventy dollars off borough dot com slash day test. This episode is sponsored by simple mobile at simple mobile. You get the no contract advantage. You can get a powerful nationwide five g. network all without a contract five g. capable device in required actual availability coverage and speed may vary five g. network not available in all areas five g. Upload speeds not yet available simple mobile out with the old in with the simple now. Back to daryl davis on the jordan harbinger show. What an example of that. The you remember to this day. He's got to be something. I'd have to think about it. I'd have to think about it. But some of the context about people in certain countries. And how they felt about the leader's whatever. No i lived in those countries. They didn't feel that way at all. You know something like that. Where did you live when you were overseas. Where were you young. We were stationed in ghana. Guinea senegal austria station in moscow in jamaica. That's so awesome. That must have been incredible at. But here's the thing you there for two years and during those two years you get home leave. And you'll get our and our rest and recuperation so you know most americans of who were overseas. They would take both home. Leave and our and our and come back home here to the states. The government's paying for it right right. We wouldn't come back unless something was going on at. Somebody died or whatever you know then we come back because you don't come back anyway at the end of the two years So my father would take the home lead an. Rn are at the government's expense. Would go to asia. Europe south america. We see all kinds of different trial. Why not right and so when you combine my travels as a child with my parents with my adulthood travels now as a professional musician tours. Around the world i've been in fifty seven countries on six continents laos. So you know that exposed me to a multitude of ethnicities colors of skin races religions. Whatever you wanna call it believes ideologies and all of that helped shape me. And i believe truly that those were stepping stones that have given me the ability to sit down and talk with people who who you would never picture me sitting with. Not that i respected. Their ideology rang all right. But here's what i notice. No matter how far. I go from this country whether it's right next door to china or mexico or halfway around the globe no matter how different the people i encounter may be what i bring back is that we all are human beings and as such everybody. I've met anywhere in the world. They all want these same five things in their life. We all wanna be loved. We want to be respected. We want to be heard. We want to be treated fairly and we want the same thing for our family as anybody else wants for their family. And if you find yourself in a culture or society with which you're unfamiliar and you apply those five values to those people. I can guarantee you. The navigation will be much more smooth than much more positive. So essentially viewed white supremacists as another culture and i applied those values. And that's what allowed me entrance into that world now. Of course i've had my share of violence attack me for you know these don't like you you're black or you're jewish you're gay or you're muslim or whatever it is they don't like they don't want to hear it they're on like you see a cockroach you just go over there and step on without one. Why is there you know. Yeah you don't ask them what he's down. Yeah right exactly so. I've had a few occasions like that. Were i've heard some people and put them in the hospital and take him to court and beat them there as well but fortunately fortunately those instances were few and far between you know not. Everybody's welcome to be those who don't want to talk to you. That's fine but for the most part. My experiences have been pretty positive. I'm hung up on. What was it like in moscow in one thousand nine hundred sixty seven es whatever i mean. They're kidding of even men that many black diplomats from the united states or the west in general during that time i mean they must have assumed people thought your dad was and you or from africa in those years in those countries. My my dad was there. I stayed here with my mom and then we went over to visit with them. Okay gotcha they were together you know. They divorce him and right. But i sit here for high school and all that kind of stuff so in the seventies. Let me give you a bit of history of my dad. My dad was one of the first black secret service agents in this country. He wanted to be an fbi agent. But the head of the fbi guy. J. edgar hoover Was terrible racist and male chauvinist. As well as much other things no women no blasts and so my dad went to the secret service and harry ends leaner who was head of service on the same day hired five black men all of the same time for the first time in the history. Wow and my dad was one of those five and my dad roasted ranks. It went as high as they would let a black person go so my dad had a knack for languages who just unnatural use linguistics. Pick them up you know. I can't explain it. My dad's spoke nine languages fluently. That is incredible. I know how hard that is. I speak a couple of languages and nine is an unbelievable number just to even keep in your head at the same time is incredibly difficult. I could've found him it but he spoke nine at could read and write in four of them. How and so vice president richard. Nixon will later go on to compress the time he was vice president to dwight eisenhower. He was gonna have this famous kitchen debate with an akita. Chris jeff over in moscow so the state department advertised for any americans to apply who speak fluent russian. They want to hire one as an interpreter translator to go with nixon so my dad's spoke russian. I spoke so he applied for the gig and he got it so he went to moscow with nixon and a few other interpreters his entourage and he did such a good job. The nixon told eisenhower about it as though they called him into the white house and president. Eisenhower told him they done all their background check on him. Eisenhower told him. You have gone as far as you can go in the secret service. You could probably go a little bit. Further in the foreign service is my father went into the foreign service exam fast. Yeah crushed it. Yeah he probably degrade on that exam. A guy that well traveled that speaks all those languages probably could take that exam while juggling. It must be cool to have a dad like that. Like that's really incredible unique upbringing. But you know as a child you know you'd think that everyone's dad's exactly exactly you know and everybody does all the travel that you do Because i mean granted you know other than the natives of whatever country we were in all my classmates would children of diplomats or military whatever that was there and they were always traveling. Yeah that makes sense right. So you're pure group is oh you haven't been to paris yet this year and you're like oh i'm the odd man out. Meanwhile you come back. I mean the people that you're bringing home. The people that you talked to now. I would imagine that there is a wide gamut of people who are in the glucose clam but i would imagine it is weighted heavily towards people. That don't travel a ton internationally. Is that accurate absolutely. Yeah tell me about the first time you've experienced racism because this is kind of a unique way to find out about it. I suppose as young as a young man as a child right so one of the times we came back from overseas was nineteen sixty eight. I was aged ten. And i went to school in a place called belmont massachusetts which is a suburb of boston. Dumb borders up against cambridge and Lessons in concord right there and so there are two black kids the whole school being fourth grade. Little girl in second grade son. Everybody saw her. It's recess or lunchtime all my friends. White fourth and fifth graders and my male friends. Some of them were cub scouts and they invited me to join and i joined had a great time. Everybody was very nice to meet no problems and we had a parade from my lesson to concord the girl scouts boy scouts. Cub scouts brownies. Four h. club. Whatever to commemorate. The ride of paul revere and the streets were blocked off. Sidewalls remind with nothing but white people waiting cheering and smiling and we got to a certain point in route when suddenly. I'm getting hit upside the head with soda pop bottles soda pop cans depre- from the street things like that by just a small group of maybe four or five people missing the larger crowd of white people. I remember being a couple kids. Maybe a year or so older than me and a couple of adults were throwing things now. It came from my right side. They were over here on the sidewalk and my first thought was. Oh these people over here. They don't like the scouts was wrong. And i never had anything like that happened to me. And it wasn't until just moments later. All my troopers den mother cut master troop leader all can running and covered me with their bodies. Squirted me out of the danger some now. I'm looking around. Nobody else is getting this treatment. Said for me and so i'm not trying to blame myself. Like what did i do you know. I didn't say anything that might have been. Why why are they doing this. what would i do. They wouldn't ask. They just kept shushing. May and russia along telling me everything's gonna be okay. Just keep moving. keep moving. I never got an answer. So at the end of the parade. I went home and my mother and father who were not in attendance. They're looking at me and cleaning me up putting alcohol with your own. Bandaids on me and ask me. How did i fall down. Had i've trip and fall down. Get scraped up and i told them what happened. I didn't trip and fall down. When i told them what happened for the first time in my life. I'm an only child for the first time in my life. My mom and dad sat me down at the age of ten. And explain to me. What the word racism was. Now get this. You might find this incredible but at the age of ten. I had never heard the word. Racism i had with talking about. It wasn't part of my world you know. I had no reason to know what it was when they told me this literally. I did not believe them. I thought they were lying to me. Like that can't be right. That's too stupid and ridiculous. Why would anybody think like that. Yeah exactly and my my ten year old rain could not process it and to reinforce what i'm thinking was the fact that the people who are doing this to me they look just like my friends at school. They were business white or overseas. My fellow americans from the embassy while my french or swedish or german austrian friends so it had nothing to do with gift with skin color. My parents are wrong. That doesn't happen. You know because if that happens with them why wouldn't have With my other white friends just made no sense and of course. Racism doesn't make any sense so hyphen believing well to in a month and a half to two months later that same year. Nineteen sixty eight. on april. The fourth martin luther king was assassinated every major city. My hometown chicago nearby. Boston where i am right here at washington. Dc everywhere los angeles. They all burned to the ground in the of this new word that i had learned racism so then i understood. My parents had not lied to me. This phenomenon exists but did not understand why it insisted okay except that it does but why so. I formed a question at that age. H ten which was how can you hate me. We don't even know me. And i was looking for the answer to that question for fifty three years so who better to ask than someone who would go so far as to join an organization with over a hundred year history of practicing hating people. Don't look like them or believers. They believe that's where the would that led to. So how did you meet your first clan member face to face well on friendly terms anyways or at least you know peaceful terms. I'm sure you came across accidentally before without the handshake involved. I did the very first one that i met. I didn't know he was a planet. But i beat him. Up was beating up lady on a sidewalk outside of a restaurant. And i intervened. I found out later was a clansman. Not that bothered me. It was somebody beating lady. But anyway. So i had joint a country music band country music. Header made a resurgence and they'd been a movie out urban cowboy with john travolta and mechanical bowl and online dances so country was popular so i joined this country band. They were established in the area. And we played a place called the silver dollar lounge. And a town hall frederick maryland. Just over an hour outside of washington. Dc the silver dollar lounge was known as an all white lounge. There were no signs but black people did not go there and they did not go there because they were not welcome. And when you go somewhere where you're not welcome and alcohol is being served. The ad not a great. Not a great mixture. Yeah not a great mixture. So here i was in this place now. The band played before my first time there and after the first set would take a break. Come out come down off the stage. The bengals sedan advance able and i feel somebody come up from behind me and put their arm around my shoulder now. I don't know anybody misplace something around to see who's touching me as this guy he's like fifteen years or so more older than me fit smile and who said man. I sure like you piano plan. I thanked him shook his hand and he says this is the first time i ever heard of black man play piano like jerry lewis and now. I was not offended but i was surprised because this guy is older than me you know. He should have known the black origin of jerry. Lewis style and i said well jerry learned to play just from the same. I did from black blues and boogie. Woogie piano players as where rock and roll rockabilly evolved. He was incredulous. You know he did not believe that. Jerry lee invented that you've never seen a block type. I like that. So i guess he never saw little richard fats. Domino same style. I guess if you never go to a bar and don't let people in your bar exactly. Maybe you haven't seen that but that's the air fault that's a problem at that point right exactly. So he didn't believe that. I told him i said listen. Man i know him. He's a friend of mine he's told me himself. He didn't believe that either but he was so fascinated. He wanted me to come back to his table. Buy me a drink. So i don't drink but i went that table and ordered a cranberry juice. He pays the waitress. He takes his glassy. Fix glass in cheers mate. And then he says you now. This is the first time. I ever sat down with the black man. And he's telling you all this. I was baffled because at that point in my life i had sat down with thousands of white. People had a meal beverage a conversation. How is it that this guy had never done that. And so innocently. I asked why he didn't answer. He like look w tabletop. I asked him again. His buddy elbowed him at talent callum. He says i'm a member of the ku-klux-klan man. I burst out laughing. Like scott not for real medway. What's wrong with this man. And i'm trying to rationalize what he's telling me in my mind. I'm thinking okay. He thought i was. Bs him about knowing. Jerry lewis journey learned from black people. So he's a bs he's calling my lag ally come on esa i'm laughing. He goes out his pocket full that his wallet and hands me clan membership card. I recognized the plan in sydney up. Which is a red circle with a white cross and a red blood drop in the center of the cross. The thing was for real mamat. Whoa i stopped. Laughing wasn't funny anymore. I get it back to him. And now i'm wondering in my mind. Why am i sitting here with a clansman. What's going on here. This guy was very very friendly and very curious about me and so we talked a lot and he gave me his phone number and wanted me to call him. Whenever i was to return to this bar with this band because he wants to bring his friends fans women to see a black who plays like jerry lee. That must have been kind of an interest. Like do i want to call. The guy have bring a bunch of clansmen over to the bar. While i'm playing like there must have been a part. that's like. Is that a good idea for me to do that. Well i figure you know if if they were as friendly as he was you know they wouldn't pose any problem right. And so i said okay and so i called them every six weeks You know in the band was on a rotation there. I call him on a wednesday or thursdays. Zahedi mad. You know. we're down to silver dollar. Friday and saturday come on out. He come out both nights and he brain clansmen and lands women and they'd gather around the stage wash me play and get on the dancefloor and dance and then on the brakes. I make my way over to his table. Say hello some of them. Were curious about me. They want to meet me. Others would see me coming and they'd get up and scurry away so you didn't have to touch me talk to me and that was fine too. This is jordan harbinger. Show with our guest. Daryl davis. We'll be right back. 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And don't forget we've got worksheets for many episodes of the show. If you want some of the drills the exercises talked about during these podcasts. Those are in one easy place as well. That link is in the show notes at jordan harbinger dot com slash podcast and now for the conclusion apart. One with daryl davis. It's amazing that was that kind of simple and easy. And i know that you dug a little bit deeper after that. I mean you. You eventually got a meeting with a guy who was supposed to be kind of dangerous right. Tell me about that okay. So at the end of that year. I think i played through december through christmas. Then i quit the band. And i went back to playing rock and roll and blues are ambient. Whatever else was going on. So i lost track of the guy you know. It wasn't like i was going to stay in contact with the kkk. Well sometime later it dawned on me. Hey daryl you didn't realize it but the answer to your question. How can you hate me when you don't even know me that's been plaguing us since the age of ten it fell right into your lap. Who better to ask that question. Then somebody in the can't get back in contact with that guy. And so i was gonna do that. I decided i'm going to write a book. I have tons of books clan and all kinds of white supremacy black supremacy off ideology tons of books on it. No book had been written by a black author on jayjay from the perspective of in person interviews. So i'm gonna do that kind of guy within my mom passed away and so i put things off a couple of years and then i got into it so long story short. I did get in contact with him. He did not wanna turn me onto the cleanliness. And i knew who the leader was but not personally he said no no no. I can't do that you know. Get in trouble and he didn't want to get in trouble. He don't want me to get in trouble he really like well. Listen give me the guys anderson phone number. He didn't wanna do that. But i finally persuaded to do it. And he did it on the condition that i not tell this guy where i got his personal information. I said okay. And he warned me. Sit darrow. Do not food. With roger. Kelly as the guy's name roger. Kelly will kill you. I said well that's the whole reason and talk to him. I'll watch about this. Why would he do that. Just because of the color of my skin it makes no sense. This is what i need to understand. So he warned me again but gave me the number. And you know implored me not to tell mr kelly where i got his information as so. That's where that that started. So then i decided okay. My secretary is white and only mention that. Not that i care but because it's an integral part of the store as part of the story. Yeah yeah. I called. Mr kelly myself on the one who had the phone number but i thought if i called him he might recognize in my voice that i'm black. I'm not talking to you. Click the whole project would have ended before it ever got started so i told her mary. I said listen. Call this guy. Roger kelly. I said do not tell him that. I'm black unless he asks if you don't let him but don't give them reason to ass tell them that you're working for your boss. Who's writing a book on the plan. Would he consent to sitting down and giving me an interview said okay. I see that nobody clan new i was. I was right involved in music. So she called and he did not ask what was he agreed to do the interview. So we arranged megabits motel marion. I got their super early. I mean several hours early. And i gave her some money. Sent her down the hall to get some soda. Pop out of the vending machine put in the ice book to get cold so odd to be hospitable and offer my guest. You know cold drink. I had no idea what this man was going to do when he saw me. Would he attacked me. What do you say. I might talk to you and walk away or would come in the room and do the interview in any event. I knew what i was gonna do. I was going to be hospitable. So you know she got the soda put in the ice bucket so with ice and we waited and right on time at five fifteen. On sunday afternoon there was a knock on the door. So now the room situated way you cannot see. Who's in the room from the the doorway. You gotta come in the room. Turn around the corner. And then you see room laid out I'm sitting in the most obscure corner of the room at his little lamp table thing. I took them off. I had a black bag by my chair. Appointed to set records out of their center on the table in the bag. I have some blank cassettes and a copy of the bible because the client claims to be christian organization and they say the bible preaching racial separation. Not never seen it in there. So i want to be able to. Hey please show me chapter in verse whereas as some prepare right not not nearly hops up and runs around. The corner opens the door in walks plan bodyguard. And he's in military camouflage that red circle white gross blood drop patch right there. The lettuce kkk here and knights of the ku klux klan embroidered. On his cat. he's not like undercover at all. he's just no rapid city automatic on his holster. He comes in mr. Kelly is in a dark blue suit and tie walking right behind him and this guy turns the corner and sees me and just freezes. Just stop short. What mr. Kelly did not realize that his bodyguard and stopped short. He slammed into his back and knocked him forward. Now they both like stumbling around. You know it was. A comedy is like laurel and hardy thing. And i'm just sitting at the table like you know looking at them. I could see in their faces. The apprehension you know. They're like looking all around regaining. Their balanced and i could read their faces. Their faces were saying to the desk clerk. Give us the wrong room number. Yeah or just an ambush enough. So i realized that i stood up and i went like this. I displayed my hands to show. I had nothing in them. And i walked towards them. My right hand out. I said hi mr kelly. I'm darrell davis and he should man and the bodyguard shook my hand so far so good right. Please have a seat mr. Kelly sat down and the by the stood at attention on his right side. And before i could sit down. He wanted some id. So i gave somebody. And then i sat down with began talking every time he would make some a biblical reference or the cassette ran out of tape. I'd reached out to get the bible or get a fresh. Whenever i reached down the bodyguard reach up to his gun. He never drew it but he put his hand on the button on the handle. I understood that because that's his job he does not know may not know what's in my bag. His job is to protect his boss. So he's doing what he has to do. I got that. I was fine with that. And this went on in and out of the bad for awhile. Why did he want your i d. i mean who cares like that part it. Here's what happened so he asked me if i had any i d. I give my driver's license. And then he looks at he goes. Oh you live on such such street in silver spring. That had me concern subtle threat. Like now i know where you live. Exactly something gotta come by and burn across in my yard when he crawled up next door where you live or something. No no but You know it had me concerned. But i do not want to let him know that i was concerned so i said yes mr kelly. That is where i live and you live at and named his house history. That can you. I do where he lived to right right now. I'm leveling the playing field. I did not realize it that day but the reason why he made note of my street which because one of his members lives right down the road here no longer there. He's he's in prison now. Oh so mr. Kelly would have to drive down my street which runs through two neighborhoods to see this guy as it was just pure coincidence but i had no way of knowing that i didn't even know the guy lived down there so i found out much later. Anyway so why are kept reaches for his gun while after a while he relaxed. He realized there was no threatened. The bag i went in and out. He didn't do anything to stand there about a little over an hour. Maybe into this interview. Mr kelly and i were just talking casually and there was a very quick sudden short noise that came out of nowhere like that was because it happened so out of nowhere. We all jumped. And i came about my seat. I was ready to dive across the table an attack. I feared for my life when wider fit for my life while a my ear could not discern the noise to fasten was gone. I'm sitting in the room with the head of the clan of for my state i'm black already been told by one of his members would kill me so i got all that going on in my head as you go into survival mode and survival you only do basically one of four things. Some people just sank. They pass out. Because of fear is so break debrincat process it shuts down you fall out. I don't do that other people. Their muscles tighten up. And they'll start shaking. And the can't move the constricted that's called paralysis by fear they can't move. You be hitting them whatever. They wanted to be deflecting blows. I don't freeze up like that and other things people will do is to run away. You scared you run away. That is the best option and bessie option. That i would have chosen. Had it been available to me but you could not outrun a bullet in a motel room. Brian yeah so option was to do a preemptive strike. Get them before they get you. And that's what i was gonna dive across. the table. grabbed both of those guys in slam down to the ground and immobilized. That guy's got. But when i hit the table i'm looking right into mr kelly's is i didn't say a word. My eyes were conveying everything. I was thinking. Because i knew he made that. No it's with no doubt my mind. He made that noise. And i didn't know what it was and because i didn't know what it was. It causes fear. And i perceived to be ominous and threatening and i read my eyes. My eyes were saying to him. What did you just do well. His eyes had locked with mine and he didn't say a word either but i could read his eyes as well. His eyes were asking me. What did you just do. And the bodyguard had his hand on his gun looking back and forth between both of us like would either one of y'all just do well mary. She was sitting on top of the dresser to my left because there were no more chairs as she realized what had happened as she began explaining it. When it happened again what happened was the ice. The ice bucket had melted and the kansas soda. Were falling down. The ice had that was it. Somebody almost got shot over an ice cube. That's how crazy this thing was but this was a teaching moment because all in that same moment it confirmed fat that we all human. We all have something in common. We all felt fear in the same moment. He didn't know what it was. He thought i did it. So the bodyguard right. I didn't know what it was. I thought he did it. We both see one another because some things that we didn't even know about ignorant to it and at the same time that same moment. When mary explained it with the fear was addressed and dawn we all began laughing about it. I bet i can imagine the tension got had to get diffused. Somehow we're allowed to at our ignorance. So this is a very important lesson that i think needs to be caught in every classroom anywhere. Usa all because some foreign underlying circle highlight the word foreign entity of which we were ignorant being the bucket of ice. Kansas soda had entered into our comfort zone via the noise that it may we became fearful and accusatory of each other. ignorance breeds. Fear if we do not keep that fear in check and address it it will escalate the hatred because we hate the things that frighten us then. If we don't address the hatred and keep it in it will escalate into anger and breed destruction. We want to destroy the things that we hate. Why because they frighten us but guess what they may have been a harmless and we were simply ignorant. We saw that whole chain. Almost unraveled to completion. Had the nighthawk. The bodyguard shot near my secretary. Or had i jumped across the table and hurt. One of them stopped short of that. Fortunately you did see exactly what i'm talking about. Four years ago. august twelfth. Two thousand seventeen in charlottesville virginia where that big supremacist rally. On that day there was a lot of ignorance in charlottesville. There was a lot of fear which escalated to hatred which culminated in destruction when a white supremacist got inside his vehicle and tried to murder as people as he could buy driving full force into the crowd. He succeeded and injuring twenty people and murdering one young lady named heather higher ignorance. Fear fear breeze hatred hatred breach Destruction and this is universal. In when i speak to little kids like an elementary school middle school things like that. And i'm talking about this kind of thing. Of course i. I can't put down a lot for that a age level. Yeah but i'll give example of something. I'm in a classroom standing at the top of the classroom here. This little kids are sitting in their little desks. You know five rosa them. And i've talked casually aman been suddenly say. Hey there's a snake under your chair. And i'll point down between some kids feet and just my suggestion and pointing that there's a snake under somebody's chair not only does that. Person screen kids five rows bat screen. You know right and then they realize it's no snake there. They all start laughing and i asked. I said you know why why giles rain. I hate snakes. I'm afraid of snakes there through hatred. Here's your fear. Why do you hate snakes. Well they're slimy the poisonous. Will this your ignorance. Slicks about slimy at all dry you know and not all snakes poisonous. So you know you're making assumptions that the ignorance right so i said okay. There wasn't sick under your chair. Obviously however let's just pretend that there really was a snake under your chair. What would you want me to do about it. You know what they say kill it. There's your destruction ignorance fear hatred destruction of little kids. You know pre age. That's something that we have to address in this country. Learn how to deal with things that we don't understand. I mean you know. We can be cautious understand that self preservation stuff but that's not always seek to destroy a missed opportunity for dialogue is a missed opportunity for conflict resolution. I'm a firm believer in that. Nothing gets resolved without talking about when i was a kid overseas. I was probably six years old five or six. I remember the occasional page. But the american ambassador would always do things at his residence in line with american traditions. Easter egg hunts and all that kind of stuff with the kids bamsey and so. My parents are taking an easter egg hunt at his house. A bunch of kids. they're with coming up driveway. And there was a kid who. I didn't recognize older kid standing at the top of the driveway and he has something white on his arm and when he moved around his arm. Didn't move and never seen anything like this. I didn't know what was wrong with his arm. And when we got there you know trying to get out of the car. I wouldn't get out. I was afraid of that kid. I never seen an arm like that before. My parents just kept trying to explain to me. It's the cast. He's injured his arm. You put in a cast. I've never seen the cast before in also it was foreign to me. I didn't want to do with that kid at my parents literally had to drag me out of the car kicking and screaming and crying. 'cause i did not want to anywhere near that kids. I would have to walk by him to do so by the friends they dragged out of the car. And i ran to my friends man. You know and over time that day. I remember some of my friends. You know going up to the guy and they were like touching his cast and they were writing something on his cast. As i was curious. I kept my distance. Get closer and closer. I look and that he asked. You wanna write your name on it. I thought everybody else do has a figure okay. But he handed me a market took it from afar. I touched the cast and then i began writing my name on it and of course he and i became friends later but it took that experience of not knowing what it was it put fear in me so i can understand how ignorance can breed. Fear found this episode interesting. Here's a trailer for another episode of the jordan. Harbinger show bob sag shares. How humor can be used as a coping mechanism for pain. And the necessity of reinvention for career longevity and fulfillment. Here's a preview. When did you know that you were funny. Like were you a class clown the whole time or was it last year last fame has bullshit to let it go to your head. The moment you're cocky is the moment you've lost me as audience and a lot of people are attract you to it. You know if. I'd known that secret as a teenager. I would've had a lot of girlfriends or just. Been quite a stud because the key was not to care. I'm calm skin now. I don't know if it's evident during this thing. If a so called why the hell was clicking this capstick come demonstrate what you're hearing you are hearing it in a much. Slower clicking sega hypnotic pattern for the listener. So i put your listeners to bed for me to walk around scared thinking about people that are trying to hold me back. Nobody's hold me back if anybody's hold you back to you. You know not you. Not you know was holding me back at you jordan. This podcast is going to. You're going to see massive onslaught of listeners for your show kebob sagi- here few is gonna get eight for people provided we don't blow it in the last quarter here in the last ten minutes here on. That's impossible when we got more and word in our twelve and to those minutes happen to be cut. You're standing there with john. Stamos dave cooley. A and you think no one can see you. And i heard that there was a life-size doll. Yeah let's let's forget. This is painful. You know too much have to kill you. I read your book when i get. We can hang out when the plague lists can't wait. Maybe i'm on here. But i don't like her on i. We don't have wet markets downtown. La right no. We don't at least not with like bats and pangolins and other stuff that you haven't heard of know what the hell happened for more with bob. Sagging on how the big breaks can come from one of lights worst disappointments and bob's proven for dealing with the haters and we all have haters checkout episode. Three seventy two on the jordan harbinger. Show with bob. Sagging all right. This is the part one part. Two coming right up links to daryl stuff's going to be in the show notes. Police use our website links. When you buy books from any of the guests that does help support the show. Worksheets for episodes are also in the show notes. Transcripts are in the show notes. And there's a video of this interview and many others all up on our youtube channel at jordan harbinger dot com slash. Youtube we've also got a brand new clips channel with cuts that don't make it to the show highlights from interviews that you can't see anywhere else. Jordan harbinger dot com slash. Clips is where you can find that. And if you want to get in touch on at jordan harbinger on both twitter and instagram. Where you can hit me on linked in teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships using systems software and tiny habits. That's in our six minute. Networking course and that courses free. That's a jordan harbinger dot com slash. Course dig that well before you get thirsty. And most of the guests on the show they subscribe the course. They contribute to the course. Come join us. You'll be in smart company. Don't forget to join us for part to here coming up next. This show is created in association with podcast one by team. Is jen harbinger. Jason anderson robert fogerty milio campo and baird josh ballard and gabriel mizrahi. Remember we rise by lifting others. The fee for the show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting look. This is a fascinating story. Y'all know somebody who's going to be interested in this police. Share this episode with him. I think it's a good intro to the jordan harbinger show as well. I hope you find something. Great in every episode of this show so please share the show with those you care about in the meantime do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen and we'll see you next time. All right another podcast. I always recommend my friend. Dr emily more she a doctor. Now that's amazing. She's on a mission to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate the conversation around sex for fifteen years. She's been answering your questions. Like how do i talk to my partner about trying something new in the bedroom. Or how do i increase my sex drive. And there's a whole lot. More of that. 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Daryl Davis On Dismantling White Supremacy; 9/11 Lawsuit Against Saudis

Here & Now

42:51 min | 2 months ago

Daryl Davis On Dismantling White Supremacy; 9/11 Lawsuit Against Saudis

"From npr and wbz. Boston jane clayson. I'm peter o'dowd this is here now. Recovery teams have pulled ten more bodies from the wreckage of the champlain towers in surf side. Florida today. it is the biggest jump in death since the building collapsed nearly two weeks ago and it brings the confirmed death toll to forty six ninety. Four people are still missing wwl. Rn reporter danny. Rivera is with us now from miami for the latest danny. Welcome and miami. Dade county mayor daniele levin kava spoke earlier. Let's listen our commitment to this mission is deeply personal. This is our community. Our neighbors our families and our first responders have truly searched that pile every single day since the collapse as if they're searching for their own loved ones. Unfortunately danny the death toll has been rising faster now in the last few days. What's the latest. You're hearing about those efforts right. So you mentioned the jump in confirmed deaths did jump pretty significantly overnight we we we got ten overnight which the highest jump. We've had and part of the reason that that jump happened. According to authorities was because they on the night of fourth of july at about ten thirty pm they've demolished the rest of the standing building and the reason they said they did that was because the safety the looming safety concerns about the prospect that the remaining building could collapse and injure the search and rescue teams that were on the scene. It was hampering those efforts so they brought it down with with dynamite In a way that they say that it didn't affect the original rubble in any kind of way they they kind of blew it up in a way that that went in the other direction so they only dust really fell into the original pile but without that looming threat they have been getting deeper into it and accelerating those efforts and things are moving quicker now. We're also hearing from officials. Today updated the number of people who are still missing but they've also said that they've not been able to confirm that all of those people were actually in the building when it fell. Can you explain what's going on with that right. So the the number of of missing has never been a very concrete number. It's always been somewhat of an estimate there just being a little bit more explicit about that now because we have to keep in mind a building like this or wasn't like a check in system where the authorities at any time or that. Anyone ever knew exactly who was in the building so they were just building off of information provided by by family members in in some cases there were family members who thought that their loved one might have been in the building that might not have turned out to be the case. So they're saying that there's ninety four accounted for potentially and they are as as the days go on gathering more information from the family's learning new information and updating that needed so it it is a little bit of a fluid situation wwl. Rn reporter dante rivero in miami. Thank you very much. Thank you tropical. Storm elsa has made landfall in the northwest part of florida today. Let's bring in meghan borowski. She's meteorologist with the florida public. Radio emergency network meghan. Welcome to you. Thank you peter. And what were the conditions. Like this morning as the storm hit land so elsa made landfall just before eleven o'clock this morning and taylor county. So that's right where the florida peninsula meets the panhandle and we've just been dealing throughout the state with heavy rainfall gusty winds at times especially toward the gulf coast We have had. Some tornado warnings up and down. The peninsula Nothing confirmed yet but we have had tree damage And trees down especially in northern florida. also just excessive rainfall especially down toward the southwest portion of the state Where we had upwards of thirteen inches of rain. Well yeah and yesterday. We know that that rainfall the lightning strikes that came along with the storm causing some delays with the rescue efforts. The condo collapse does look like however that this storm is now on track to move north up the east coast. What can we expect in the hours and in the days ahead right so it looks like alyssa's gonna continue to push North northeastward over the afternoon. Impacting north florida jacksonville metro area. It should accelerate a little bit. So impacting georgia and south carolina. Tomorrow and then the mid atlantic likely exiting off the new jersey coastline on friday could actually briefly restrengthen into a tropical storm after Becoming a depression later today of it really heavy rainfall and gusty winds the two main threats and just very briefly. What is the main concern at this point as it moves north. What what's the prospect for flooding for example excessive rainfall and flash flooding especially along the i ninety five corridor. Peter that is meghan barassie meteorologist with the florida public radio emergency network. Thanks for your updates. Thanks let's go now to the adirondacks of new york which is in the middle of a housing crisis. The pandemic spurred the sale of second homes and the short term. Rental market is booming. That's left locals and seasonal workers with few affordable options. Emily emily russell of north country public radio reports from the tiny. Hamlet of old forge. There's a little blue house right in the middle of town. It's got a grill out front and a wind chime hanging from a shade tree. That's where i meet rick kip. It's just a little three bedroom bungalow. Really kip is in his thirties. He's got a beard and long black hair. He lives here with his wife and their three kids. So it's a little on the small side. But they love the location. The kids can walk. School k-i-p-p can walk to work. He cleans does maintenance on town buildings in early. May there is a knock at the door. They were served papers. That said their lease wasn't being renewed. They had three months to pack up. We're panicked it was very scary. That's kipps wife samantha moore. She too has long dark hair and is about to have their fourth child. I called everybody. I've ever known my whole life saying like please like you know if you hear anything let me know. More and kip grew up in old forge. They've lived here all their lives so their hope was to find a place to buy to stay in. Raise their family here. They made an offer on a place back in early. May it was out of their budget and in rough shape but kipps says they were desperate they were asking for two hundred and thirty thousand dollars in the hole inside of it needed to be remodeled and redone in the bathroom floor was sagging. Still offer was rejected. Kip says it's frustrating. That people like him working multiple jobs raising small kids that there's nowhere for them to live. We need more affordable housing here. I it's not even a question. There's nowhere for anybody to live full-time without an extravagant amount of money from twenty sixteen to twenty twenty home prices have shot up old forge even ones that are not on the waterfront went up. By thirty percent. According to local real estate data at the same time the short term rental marketplaces like airbnb fees skyrocketed. The town's tourism director mike farmer says that is pricing locals out and putting the local economy at risk without affordable housing. We have no future for providing suitable living for the workforce the local water park built. Its own employee. Housing to fill one void and affordable development was also built a few years back. But there's a lot more housing demand than there is supply. Bruce misersky says nearby essex county has the same issue we have people eligible. We have money available but no units for them. The by ski heads the county's housing assistance program. They help people covered down payments and closing costs. They also offer rental assistance. Zarzusky says the adirondacks are at a turning point when it comes to housing communities need to decide what their future is and how they want to respond to this. We're trying to help but it's really the communities decision on how they wanna move forward. This housing crisis comes at a time when the adirondacks are seeing another kind of crisis. The slow decline of school enrollments saranac lake. School district has shrunk by a third in the last two decades. The town of web which includes old ford is down forty percent to just two hundred fifty kids in k. Through twelve the district is about to lose a few more kids. After rick kip and samantha. Moore's offer on the home in old forge was rejected. They got in the car and drove minutes. South more says they went to see a home in the town of forest port and it was a very nice house and it was in our price range. But we said that'll be the last resort. I doubt that's going to have to happen. But it it did end up happening for the first time in her life more and her family. Or leaving old forge. They're leaving the same school district. They went to his kids. They have two children with special needs. More says she's worried about them starting at a new school. She's been telling the kids. The move might not be forever. Maybe someday down the road we can come back to old forge. But let's see how this works out. It helps it. It's a really nice house in there so much land and we try and get them excited about like. Hey we you know we can. We'll put a trampoline. We'll put a little playground. The back after being priced out of their hometown and forced to move out of their school district. More says they're lucky. They were saving for down payment for months so at least they could afford to move a lot of people in the adirondacks she says. Have it a lot worse for here. Now i'm emily russell reporting from old forge new york as the nationwide debate over racism continues. We wanted to check in with someone tackling the issue in an unusual way by making friends with members of the ku klux klan. Daryl davis is a black blues musician and author who has spent many years forming. These relationships davis spoke with npr in two thousand seventeen about how he got started with his work after he and a clansman bonded over music in a bar the fact that a clansman and a black person could sit down at the same table. Enjoy the same music. That was the seed planted. So what do you do you plan to. Seed you nourish it many have left the kkk. After talking with daryl davis. They've even given him their white hooded robes and other memorabilia. So far davis has collected more than two hundred items. Today is reflecting on the work ahead during an historic when our country has come up against a pandemic a racial reckoning. An election an insurrection and now a new president trying to pave a united path. Forward daryl davis welcome to hear. Now how nice to have you. Thank you very much. Thank you for inviting me. I appreciate it well after an historic year when we have seen protests and inflamed debates over racism. How are you feeling about the work. That's ahead of you. I am feeling extremely optimistic. And hopeful looked at the march of last year. Twenty twenty in the wake of the george fluid lynching if you will What what did the power structure see. Then they saw an ocean of black people and an ocean of white people marching together. We know we've never had that. That large a collective voice americans white black whatever working together for the common cause and that my friend is the definition of the united states. You say the pages of progress are turning faster. How would you gauge the state of white supremacy in america right now. Is it shifting in two thousand twenty one What's happening is this. They are becoming very fearful. So what people indicate k. and neo nazis. Alright what they tell me is daryl. I don't want my grandkids to be brown. They call it the browning of america or white genocide through miscegenation in other words race mixing and they're very concerned about their identity being erased. So this is why. You're seeing all these upticks in recruitment for white supremacist. Groups always lone wolves the insurrection at the capitol. What did you see that predominantly mostly white people. These are the ones who were fearing that. Their identity is being erased and a false perception. Nobody's going to take over and he people out of this country we all are americans. We need to learn how to get along with each other. And so i wonder what you were thinking on january six the day the mob stormed the us capitol because you you base your approach on listening and understanding. So how did you make sense of what happened that day. So i saw it coming. I was not in the least bit surprised and This know when you see somebody walking through the capital carrying the confederate battle flag and and somebody else wearing a camp auschwitz. T. shirt you don't have to ask what they're what they're doing. They're what they want. You know what they want. Mr davis you have memorabilia from white supremacists from k. k. k. members. You have their white hooded robes. Why do you keep these things. Why are they in your house. What do they represent to you. They represent that those people no longer believe what those items stood for and people always ask. Why do you have that stuff. Want you burn it well. No i'm not going to burn it. It is a part of american history. Racism the kkk is just as american as baseball apple pie and chevrolet as a part of our history. We all have the good the bad the ugly and the shameful and our history and does not need to be destroyed. We need to learn from it. So i have a five. Oh one c. three. I plan to open a museum one day. And that's where stuff will be Right now i'm learning a lot of it to the orlando holocaust center for an exhibition. They are putting on In the fall if spent years Going around the country talking to clansmen in person to form relationships To form friendships. And i'm curious how the pandemic has changed your efforts. I mean were you trying to talk to. Kkk members on on zoom. How did that work. Absolutely some of them avenue have soon and Yeah i've talked to a lot of them zone or through email or phone telephone. I've i've met with some you know recently. You know in in person. You know Online is a tool is a double edged sword and dependent on how you use it It can be can be used for the good or the bad and certainly we know we're seeing we're seeing both. We've seen a lot of cancel culture online. We're seeing a lot of recruitment online into a lot of these groups extremist groups etc. But it's also a means of connecting in a one another and depending upon how you use it you have ongoing conversations and relationships with white supremacists with kkk members. Do you ever worry about your safety. Yes and it's been imperilled from time to time. Fortunately for me those times have been few and far between but you know that's a risk You know you have to take it. Goes with the territory. Somebody who is going to go so far as to join an organization that has a history of hating people so much that they string him up in a tree or drag them behind a pickup truck or bomb their churches and things like that. Yeah you know you you will face some of those people who believe in that and i have But there are others who even people like that. Who have that mentality. If they are willing to sit down and have a conversation with you there is at least an opportunity to plant a seed or offer a better perspective or perception and hopefully they will resonate with it but the key is once you plant that seed you must return and nourish it water it in order for it to bloom. Can you share with us. One conversation that stands out in your mind from from all the rest Sure there are a lot of them. But i'll give you an example of something and it's kind of amusing actually. This guy was was was called an exalted cyclops and the plan that means a district Leader he was in my car with me one day. We're riding around. And he got on the topic of of black people and crime and he. He said something that. I'd heard before from other plan people that All black people have a gene. That makes us violent. Because that's what. That's what's brainwashed into them. And i said to him you know what you mean. And he said well who's doing all the drive bys and carjackings in southeast he was referring to southeast washington. Dc which is predominantly black. There's some white people who live there was predominantly black and very high crime. Ridden and i said okay. It's black people. I said but that's what lives there you know. You're not considering the demographics who's doing all the crime up in bangor maine you know white people. Because that's what lives there he says. No no no. No the demographics have nothing to do with it. You know you all born with the stream. So he's over my passenger seat. I'm driving in the driver's seat. I looked over at him. And i said listen. I'm as black as anybody you've ever seen. I have never done a carjacking or drive by. How do you explain that. He didn't even think about it for a second. He answered me boom like that. He said you're genus latent. It hasn't come out yet. So i thought about it and i said you know we all know that all white people have gene within them that makes them a serial killer and he says well. How do you figure and i said name me. Three black serial killers. He couldn't do it. I said they're all white and i said son. You are a serial killer. He said daryl. I've never killed anybody. I said you're genus layton. Hasn't come out yet. he goes well. That's stupid. I said you're right. It is stupid but it's no more stupid for me to say that about you than what you said about me. And he got very very quiet for a moment or two and then he changed the subject within five months he quit the clan based on that conversation alone and his role was the first one i ever got. This was some years ago. What could someone be doing today to help. Bridge the divide That we have in this country even in small ways. Maybe they're not ready to go as far as meeting with a k. k. k. Member like you do but they want to help build relationships with people who think very differently than they do. What do you recommend mr davis. Sure what would i advise people to do is walk across the cafeteria and sit with somebody new. Who is not a member of your table. You will learn something from them. You will teach something about you and you will gain a new friend and you know as far as going to klan rallies or neo nazi rallies. You know if that's not your thing if you're not comfortable with that don't do it. You know nothing says you have to do that. You have to be on the front line You can be on the back line. You can be on the sideline you can be online but be doing something even if you consider it to be minute that supports those people on the front line. Better bring far right and far left people together to have these conversations and plant these different perceptions in their minds because once perception is reality and nothing gets resolved without conversation. A missed opportunity for dialogue is a missed opportunity for conflict resolution. So you can support those people working on the front lines. Offer them encouragement. You know provide them with with support from that end. You don't have to be on the front line. A missed opportunity for dialogue is a missed opportunity for conflict. Resolution us man. Daryll davis is a black blues musician and author who has spent years forming relationships with members of the ku klux klan. His conversations have helped more than two hundred white supremacists leave the group. Daryl davis thank you so much. thank you miss gleason. I really appreciate you having me. Capitalism touches every part of our lives capitalize on is a giant fourth. That i don't understand. I feel that it's a very safe system harm constantly in fear lose my job. It is our biggest success that our biggest failure on this special series from through line capitalism. Listen now to the through line. Podcast from npr. The biden administration is working on some new protections for airline passengers. Among the proposals from the department of transportation is a change. That could make it easier for you to get refunds when you don't get a service that you paid for here now transportation analyst. Seth kaplan joins us now. He seth peter and first of all. What is the problem that the department of transportation is trying to solve well. Last year. there was a surge. Peter in complaints about airlines came after several years of some airlines actually doing better compared to what had been historically poor reputation but yeah last year. A hundred two thousand complaints up from fifteen thousand a year earlier and eighty seven percent of those complaints. Peter were about refunds. You can imagine why during the pandemic people were trying to get their money back for flights that they were able to take but just overall people unhappy with airlines. Even they weren't flying. Tell me what kind of refunds were talking about here. Is it just for canceled flights or is it something else. Well it can be. But it's other things too. And this is first reported by politico feeder of legislators. Want to do something about you. Know what happens if you pay for a checked bag and the bag doesn't show up or all of those other optional. Fees which are relatively unregulated. Right speedy boarding. Let's say right. And then what if you don't get to board first not really regulations about those right now. And that's the kinds of things that we're talking about here which have gone on for years but sort of come to the forefront now because of everything that happened last year people paying fees for trips in some cases they didn't take. I see that the department of transportation is also looking to change. How airlines actually inform customers about baggage and cancellation fees. What's what's that about right so this would standardize all of that. And there are some airlines. Peter that are already doing something like what the department is proposing out just kind of voluntary Delta in alaska airlines for example are to that already provide some kind of compensation if your bag isn't there within a certain amount of time you know your your flight comes in and more than twenty minutes later bags. not on the carousel. You're gonna get something back but right now that's just sort of a an airline by airline thing and they want to see more of that and standardization terms of those alerts. I see From the transportation department that baggage and change and cancellation fees. They add up to nearly six. Sorry nearly nine billion dollars. And that's in twenty nineteen so what kind of impact might this have on the airlines bottom line. Yeah they're they're called ancillary fees. The word kind of his over when you see it like that. Obviously a core part of the revenue right now. Well you know. It's not that they're planning to eliminate these fees but airlines would have to really show people that you know you're getting what you pay for in terms of the speedy boarding the the the bag or or what have you. So if they can't get it right and then that revenue at least some of it would be at risk. Yeah just briefly me. How did the fourth of july weekend holiday travel go. I heard this some kind of kind of tough out there. Yeah it was in part of that's because of airlines. That sort of ramped up their ambitions to carry their to carry people faster than they were actually able to do at american airlines. A lot of cancellations southwest. West of cancellations. I i it was a busy weekend. The busiest of the pandemic era at least at the airport still down about twenty percent compared to twenty one thousand nine hundred last normal year but on the roads peter the from a rival which checks. Gps data says it was fully back to twenty nine thousand nine levels. That's good news and bad news. I guess here now. Transportation analyst steph kaplan. Thanks very much. Thank you peter. This september americans will mark the twentieth anniversary of the september eleventh attacks that killed nearly three thousand people in new york washington. Dc and pennsylvania well now thousands of family members of those victims are pressuring the courts to release information. They say proves. Saudi arabia had a role in the attacks a contention. Saudi arabia denies the most damning information. The family say is a series of recent video interviews with three saudi men. So why is that information sealed. Let's bring in brett eggleston. He was fifteen years old when his father was killed in the attack on the twin towers. He's a plaintiff in the lawsuit brett. Welcome thank you. Thank you for having a also joining me. Is jim kreindler. He's co chair of the plaintiffs committee representing families in the nine eleven terrorism litigation. Jim nice to have you as well. Nice to be here jane. So let's start with you. Jim you are representing the plaintiffs in this lawsuit. This is a group of about ten thousand family members who want saudi arabia to be held accountable for the nine eleven attacks. Tell us briefly. This lawsuit sure finally. After nearly twenty years we have gotten to the bottom of the story and what we know as a fact is a group of saudi officials. government officials spent nearly three years helping al-qaeda prepare for and launch the attacks. These saudi officials located the spots in california where the to lead terrorists would arrive. The has given money to enable them to murder three thousand people on nine eleven. Unfortunately we've been fighting not only saudi arabia but the united states government for was continually kept key documents. Locked up the documents that we have been given. We cannot show brett and the other family members because of the gag order that was imposed on us. so i understand the gag order But what is the motivation of the us government for keeping these documents under wrap sure it is the colossal intelligence failure and law enforcement failure for years instead of having the fbi immediately arrest known dangerous. Al-qaeda terrorists they were watching them for a year and a half. They were under surveillance in the united states. We believe that there are more specific misdeeds that some people or the government are tremendously embarrassed. But i can't talk about those because of the gag order. jim. I need to push back a little bit. I mean the. Us government says there's a gag order for a reason that there are national security issues here. It's more complex than that. It is it and it's not true. The gag order was imposed on us to protect the privacy interests of witnesses. The witnesses being people were complicit in mass murder. And let me give an example right after we started this suit We served a freedom of information request and our request was denied. We would have to get a statement from osama bin laden authorizing the release so as not to interfere with his privacy interests. So for our government to invoke the privacy interests of people who should be indited for mass murder has absolutely nothing to do with national security and everything to do with covering up their own embarrassment than failures. So tell us about these depositions. The us government has has never said that there was actual proof to link saudi arabia to nine eleven. But you think these depositions will change that. Tell us why the the depositions have changed that. There's there's no question about it. you know. Apart from the lies and contradicting each other. The essential facts are now known. The saudi government knew who they were deliberately helped them in our intelligence agencies. Knew it as well and jim. I just like jump in here for a sec. I challenge any listener today to go out and find the saudis giving some kind of explanation as the information and documents and evidence. We have and the only thing you'll ever find in the media. Is that the nine eleven commission report. Found that there were no senior levels officials of saudi arabia involved but the commission ended in two thousand and four. The fbi investigated it for another dozen years in all the way up until two thousand and sixteen with operation. Encore and those f. b. i. Agents are the real heroes that pursued all the leads that the nine eleven commission never did. So we're all lawsuit. Picks up is where our government stopped and failed us. So we're doing the work that our government should have done brett. You were fifteen when your dad died you said in may that these depositions are the most important of them all that your quote a. Why is this so important to you. This is the first time that that these individuals had to answer for any involvement in nine eleven. And if you look at the evidence and and and the trail of documents that our team has put together all roads point back to saudi arabia and these three government officials by adele. Mary omar el bigamy and masada jarrah our senior level officials. They're working from the saudi embassy in the united states in washington. Dc you have a guy by the name of masada jaro who works in the washington dc embassy. He's having hundreds of phone calls to radical saudi government officials and those two officials are the ones that are coordinating all the efforts and on directing all the assistance to the handlers until the hijackers themselves. And the fact that these three individuals have never been held accountable to me. Is just mind boggling. I know you've been so optimistic. Bread about bringing justice here but the depositions happened and they came and went. And you still really don't know what was in them. What are you hoping. They'll reveal well first of all. I want the world to know what's happening to us. If this was a normal murder case when my father was gunned down in the streets of new york city. I could walk into the police department and meet with the detective and read about all the information that the new york city police department has on the murder of my father but because this was a mass terror attack somehow that makes it so that the family members can't know anything about it. It feels like we're being stabbed in the back by our own government. We loved our country and we did everything our government ever asked of us to do and here we are twenty years later and our government failed us twenty years ago and they're continuing to fail today by keeping this information from us. The most troubling thing to me is that our government says oh yes. We have thousands of pages of documents. We have thousands of pigs of evidence. But we can't give it to you because it's it's a state secret. Jim i here. We all hear the pain in brett's voice and and i wonder given the facts here as you know them. Would you go as far as to call this a cover up of the of the. Us government absolutely. It is the worst cover up. I am aware of in our nation's history because the government has released some information selectively a lot of what the government has released creates a completely false narratives. They released bits of information that might exculpate certain saudi government officials. When we know there is a whole body of evidence that will inculpate the officials so for the government to release a tidbit that the saudis like and hold back a mountain of evidence that we know will show the world the truth about what those officials did people in in our government are quite literally helping saudi government officials. Get away with murder for twenty years. Brad i want to end by asking you how you're doing. Does this fight that you're engaged in make it easier for you to cope as we come up on the twentieth anniversary these attacks or is it harder It makes me feel proud that i can do this. Work on behalf of the nine eleven community and do it in the name of my dad. I think you'd be really proud. But it also makes it really hard to realize what our government has done to us and you know. I am a patriotic person. I love this country but it's a hard issue to come to terms with to know that your country doesn't love you back the way you love your country. I have a brother that that served in the military. He he did the call and he went to iraq two times. It's just a hard thing to come to terms with that. Your government doesn't respect you. Your government won't cooperate with you. We've been speaking to brett eggleston. One of the thousands of family members of nine eleven victims asking the depositions and documents about saudi arabia's possible involvement in the attacks be unsealed and jim kreindler. he's co chair of the plaintiffs committee representing families in the nine eleven lawsuit against saudi arabia. Jim and brett. Thank you both very much. Thank you thank you for having last night in electrifying start to the nba finals in phoenix arizona. Trouble i twenty years deficit. The phoenix suns kicked off the series of the win against the milwaukee bucks more than sixteen thousand fans packed into the arena in scorching hot downtown phoenix to watch two teams that haven't been to the nba finals in decades. Let's bring in asia rod blakely. He's nba contributor for the bleacher report. Welcome thank you. Thank you for appreciate it. Glad to have you here. So the phoenix suns. Get ahead of the bucks early in this series. What were your takeaways from game. One well the the biggest takeaways is what we've been. Frankly taken away from the sons. All season and that is the c. p. three effect. You know that the guy that is known as the point. God which is a great nickname by the one of the better nicknames. Out there he's living up to the billing in this moment when you look at thirty two points nine assists in that game. One win We haven't seen anyone do that type of damage at that age since michael jordan. And whenever you are doing anything that is putting you in the same conversation with michael jordan and kareem abdul. Jabbar and steve nash. Some of the all time greats to play the game. I it speaks to how special your players and maybe most important how you have frankly again maximize this moment. Well on the other side last night. Less than an hour before tip off. We've found out that the bucks superstar jaanus arteta compo- would play in game one after he'd been sidelined with a knee injury for several games. And here's how sons fans welcomed him every time. He tried to make a free throw their counting their. They're taunting him for how long it takes them to make a free throw. Janas did end up with twenty points and seventeen rebounds a what kind of impact did the bucks star. Have on this game. And did he look fully healthy to you. I love the fact that fans are pretty consistent in their their countdown with jaanus Which i even pulled up the stop watch to do it myself and there a couple times where he he really hit that ten second work a little bit on the north side of that. And that's the rule. You got to get it out by ten seconds right. Yeah exactly exactly. What as far as how he looked. I thought he looked surprisingly better than i thought he would. for me. It wasn't so much the amount of points or shots he was taken but how he was looking to score. He was looking to use his power looking to attack the rim. The types of things that he has done historically in his career for him. The biggest challenge is is going to be fatigue getting back in basketball shape. One of the oldest adages players will tell you all the time is that there's conditioning their shape and then there's basketball conditioning shape. But certainly when you're looking at an injury that many thought my cost him an entire year even he alluded to that the fact that he only missed a couple of games and he came back with a twenty seventeen forces game. If you're milwaukee you're thinking he's only going to get better as a series serious goes on and that is for then that's the silver lining oughta game one well. He's got to be motivated to play in the finals. Because it has been so long since either of these teams have been this far. The sons last made it in nineteen ninety three. They lost to the chicago bulls and remember that series really well The bucks haven't been this far since nineteen seventy four and only one player. Jae crowder on the sons has ever played in the finals at all. What's the road been like for these two teams to get this far. Well the one thing that i think both teams feel good about is that the road has not been paved gold. When you look at the walkie we just talked about yoenis identical impo and the injury that silent hint for a couple of games. I think it was telling that they were able to close the series out the previous one against the atlanta hawks without their best player. In on flipside you look at phoenix. They had a couple of games where they did. Not have chris paul who has been there north star the way this team goes. He is the one that's leading that direction and for them to win. A couple of games without him says a lot about what they are as a unit and not so much the individual that gives them the confidence that even when adversity strikes within a game they can figure out a way. Get back in and potentially win. Well you know what else we noticed. There's some great players in the series. Absolutely no doubt but there is no lebron james. There is no steph curry. No kevin durant none of these iconic. nba superstars. How do you think that fans outside of phoenix in milwaukee will be responded. That unfortunately is a question that the nba. Gosh they wish we didn't have to ask or answer that question. But it's real one of the strengths of the nba finals. Historically as the ability it has had to bring in the casual fan and the casual fan is the one that knows about lebron but maybe never saw him play or saw him play. Sparingly you're not going to get a lot of people who were going to know about chris paul. They're more familiar with him from state farm commercials than they are about the way he played in nba games but ended the day the nba. It's been a rough season and you'll get a pandemic and things of that nature. They're just trying to figure out a way to get through this season. Get a champion crowned and forcing for them. It's going to be a new look champion. Which creates a whole other. Set of storylines going forward Game to thursday here in phoenix. What do you think sons in. Four right i mean. That's that's what i i think. The suns will win. I made a sons will win game too. I think this series will go at most. Six games would not be surprised if it goes five to me. The key is going to be. Honest attended to coupons ability to steadily improve. As a series of goes on and for phoenix. You know. I can't believe that. Chris paul will be able to play like this consistently so i think there will be a little bit of a kind of falling back to earth moment for them but i still think this is a win. This and six asia rod blakely. Nba contributed for the bleacher report. Thank you very much. No problem thank you i'm peter o'dowd in phoenix suns. Ah-ha the honest countdown. I love it. I'm jane clayson in boston. It's here and now.

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Chris Voss with Jordan and Mikhaila Peterson

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

1:20:31 hr | 9 months ago

Chris Voss with Jordan and Mikhaila Peterson

"Welcome to season three episode. Thirty nine of the jordan. Be peterson podcast. I'm michaela peterson. This is a very recent interview with chris. Voss the video version of the podcast is available on youtube channel. I originally invited chris voss onto my podcast but dad wanted to join and obviously. I was thrilled with that opportunity. I love podcasting with dad. So if you want. The video format type in chris. Voss jordan peterson on youtube. And i'm sure the video will pop chris. Voss is an american businessman author and the ceo of the black swan group which teaches people how to negotiate. He co-authored never split the difference. A book on how to negotiate and a book on his experience as an fbi negotiator. This episode is brought to you by skill share skill shares and online learning community and is offering our listeners. A free trial of their premium membership. If you find yourself scrolling through socials or on netflix. Too much something like skill share is a better use of your time. There's so many fascinating classes there on. Topics including illustration design photography animation or productivity starting a small business coaching. I think i'm going to be taking greg. Mcewen's course on productivity in the new year skill share offers classes designed for real life so you can squish your learning experience into your life without putting your life on hold. Their short classes are a great fit for a busy routine. you can create real projects. Get the support of fellow creative so you can accomplish real growth explore your creativity at skill share dot com slash peterson where our listeners get a free trial of premium membership. That's two weeks. Free at skill share dot com slash peterson. I also wanted to mention. Dad's self authoring program because of the new year with code. Mp you can get fifteen percent off. He wanted me to mention it because of new year's resolutions and his program is fantastic. A no frills approach to goal setting and planning your future the code. Mp works on his self authoring suite. Which gets you to write your past present and future and figure out goals and how to accomplish them that self authoring dot com code. Mp for fifteen percent off great for your new year's resolution hope you enjoyed this episode if you do remember to subscribe very needs to have with us today. chris boss who's ceo of bus one consulting. How was formerly the. Fbi's talk shit now issue. Kidnapping negotiator is. The author of never slight difference. Book often teaches readers find success negotiation. Thanks very much for joining us today. The site i enjoyed your alarm looking forward to the stories. Yeah thank you. It's my pleasure so awesome it'd be to. You is much appreciated on. Why are you interested in negotiation because a psychologist and a lot of what goes on all do is go sheet. Wait their minds for behavioral change but also teach their clients to negotiate successfully. We would be around them to get what they want. So negoti and negotiations very under devout skill. And most people right. So i'm wondering how you came about an interesting. Let me quote a great great actor. Rocky balboa could. I couldn't sing and dance. I was i was with the. Fbi guy had to get out of swat because recurring injuries. I wanna stay in crisis response and so we had hostage negotiator. So i knew that around. I didn't know what they do. Didn't seem that hard right. I talk to. Terrorists is what i thought Got into it. It was fantastic. It was had had the sorta fight my way. And not really find my way. And i had to work to get in. I was eminently unqualified before. Became the negotiating but our first step was volunteering. A suicide hotline and the opportunity to influence people in short periods of time blew me away really counterintuitive methods and one thing led to another. I taught negotiation at harvard and collaborator on bulk with some people in teaching negotiation. Ever since it's just been phenomenal. It's it's great to have a positive impact. I'm sure as you feel you. Have you have the opportunity to have a positive impact on people. It's enormously satisfying so. Why what made you think that the skills that you would make as bushy during these crises situations would be applicable team in dayton search. Greg question i mean. I suspected early. On when i was volunteering on the hotline i is just people in crisis was just people and i started using the skills in my day to day life you know and it it. It impacted all my relationships and made me a better hostage negotiator and when i first started collaborating with harvard in they invited coming attend the law schools negotiation. Course instructors up there were reteaching. Were saying like look man. You doing the same thing. We're doing that. The stakes are different but the dynamic sir absolutely the same that was was sort of their blessing in their understanding. Ended up teaching there later. But the dynamics you're saying it's human behavior regardless what the circumstances are were wired in certain ways and human beings. We all have the same wiring as you know. So i'm gonna get into some of your. What would you call tactical strategies and staving mclennan of natural. And i was reading your book. I ain't that came to mind is the techniques general. Sound very much like those that were put forth by our rogers to ensure success over nicole. Transformation and low and behold about halfway through the book you make direct reference to carl robinson. He was a great actually four lahser of the idea of of active listening and reflection of the idea that you should put yourself in the shoes of the other person but also to ensure that you're hearing them profited. You should repeat what they said back to the in paraphrased manner and see if you actually got the gist. Their hunger sation rocco some degree. You concentrate on that guessing the section while it's not so much labeling statement mirroring guesses is your term with a pause well you know there's a couple i mean we really sort of really defined all the different skills and real specific detail and i was one of the things that the harvard guy said to me because we're on the same path but fbi will little bit further down and they said you know we're both talking about the same skills you've defined him and with much more clarity because principally law enforcement you know cops at the i. Agents we want specifics. That had to do something. And then we'll take and we'll road tested so merengue verses labeling we would call to different things and even the different types of labels and we take we take what we learned with the world learn. We collective me kansas psychology and we added neuroscience we started trying to hit very specific parts of the brain to create very specific reactions. So yeah airing. I would define mirroring repeating the last one to three words of what someone said or cited one two three awards verses labeling. I'm looking for emotional. Nuances dynamics one labellings. That people might respond positively to that. We should let you define it momentarily. But people should respond positively to that because it's often the case that we need if lorraina discussion or negotiating that they don't actually know what iranians of the table or with a lot and so if they're boundary about in the solid emotion midden and and and stressed now and you put your finger on what it is that they're trying to say then you're actually articulating something for them. That still only office at the level of arley response rate release. If you've been an actor because you sung Very complicated setup is he locked disturbances with a with a single irons out of enabled him to see the pathway forward. Yeah absolutely and you can't even. It doesn't even have to be that accurate. Which is the thing that neuroscientist taught us. you know. Oxytocin dopamine dependent upon wasn't not no chemicals being hit. I mean when you're inaccurate correct you actually get ahead of dopamine which they love. People hate being corrected but they loved to correct. It's a great way to create a bond that the other person doesn't even as being well and if you're in directing your labeling in eastern person has something to this phone pre. It's all about that at that right on the importance. Dating somebody to say no. I was investing because it possible to describe al over. Yeah knows one of the craziest words and we hearing. It would talk when we're little. What's the first every child learns. No he loved that were get hammered with it over and over again so we're conditioning when we hear we've done something wrong the same time. We're conditioning when we say it. We'd protect ourselves so you say no. you feel protected. You're gonna wanna talk. You're gonna you're gonna feel good about the interaction. You're not going to kill threatened you more likely to open up even something as little as nobody. My company says the anybody. Have you got a few minutes to talk. It's always now bad time to talk complete. Change the other side reaction right so you say instead. Is this a bad time to talk right right. Like i won't say. Is this a good idea. Say is this a dumb idea. You probably go like no. It's not a dumb idea but here the following problems. Here's what we got a complete change in reaction. Yeah well you know if you watch two year olds we've no they really latch onto that word. It's really remarkable. Ran the reason for that that enables them to protect themselves against the being hijacked by other people. Right it's it's actually the word that defines the boundary between them and the world and enables them to have small county. It's amazing i have never be on my old son julian. No i was status. Who's we started give and I i was trying to get him to do something just to interact. Offered a bunch of different enticements colleges have trouble getting a two year old to cooperate particularly the start of two year old but he. He's not bloodline connections. That way was this was. This was truly truly the neighbor's child. Actually he was willing to say no eminem in ice cream. Which was he caught himself when he noticed that he had said it. But not drag proposition him that he was willing to provo- even basic immediate rewards just for the thrill of being to maintain that taught me. Yeah so we should go through your head meek. Let's say you're easing some orders. So i'm gonna read it kotla if you could just describe what you need so your tactical empathy for example. Yes sure i mean what. We're trying to take first of all the point of calling it. That was taking it out of today's common usage of empathy sympathy or or even compassion. Now i would argue that I would i would offer. That empathy is very compassionate thing to do but going back to the real reason. I started collaborating with harvard. They said empathy not agreement. It's not sympathy is not even liking the other side. It's just completely understand the basis on from rogers and psychology. The stuff that anybody that's pursued this study now. Let's add in neuro science tactically tactically. We know that the daloa is kind of the crossroads of all thoughts. and it's wired to be negative. Seventy five percent negative and tactically. We know that simply identifying negative diminishes it not denying identifying. You think i'm a jerk and that much of a jerk by saying negative diminished it near the side. So let's just put a tactical application to our empathy knowing that the negative emotions are four times impact. Read at least on people's thinking so let let's approaching come through a different door and its tactic because this is something that needs to be verified. Jews when you're negotiating what is it and striving to attain you in. If it's a win you don't conceptualize that the success negotiation in different ways record you win. Which is you get a once. It would be win win. In which is both people if they want. You can go beyond that is you. Could say enrich successful negotiation hickel and discover new things. They didn't know they walk in. You get those two so you know hats towards hand if you had a philosophy of negotiation. What might that be you know. The philosophy is great collaboration which requires long-term relationships. And ideally. every deal. Kicks stuff out that you didn't expect the lighting which is going to addict you to want to continue to deal with me. Great long-term relationship if every deal were and your delighted. You can't wait to do another one right. So that's crucial. Because it was again real moral framework right because otherwise you can learn to negotiate for psychopathic reasons. Which would be only short term interest of yourself but if you go in a framework where you're trying to set yourself up. Replay repeatedly with the same personal variety of different than an ethic automatically interested. Right your reputation precedes you. I mean you get reputation for doing nothing but good for people people lined up to do business with you right. Exac reputation is actually the mark or your utility as long term far. Yeah fried that work with seventy nine. I mean if you're dealing with somebody like a hostage. How does that end up. Being a wins first of all the crazy thing is hostage negotiator. So reputational concerns you know we. We have repeat customers and even even if the guy that we're dealing with even if it goes to jail number comes up how we handle them is going to get into the media. Reputation is an immediate concern. And you know people. People are so driven by where it's taken them in the long run. I mean if somebody has a vision of the future matter how far down the line. That vision is it's a good thing. Now we got something to talk about it and you know my first response with a bank. Robber is really gonna be. Sounds like he wants to survive. Of course they do otherwise they'd come out and gotten shot already. Now get something to talk about how you deal with people who don't want to survive. You can pick that up pretty quickly you you're gonna know right off the back if you if you're there to hear it and the analogy in business will not everybody wants to do the deal with you. Maybe want to exploit you. Maybe they want to take advantage of your. Maybe they see it as a one off either playing your fool you. You've got to pick that up in your in your everyday negotiations as well and he. He'll hear it if you're open to hearing he is it's avoiding. Preconceived notions is what really search down. Being too focused on a goal. Gidget gives you tunnel. Vision the Repeated game now when things election about is that you tell your children. It isn't important whether they win or lose. It's important how they play the game you. Yeah yeah but you don't necessarily understand what needs why you're telling your child out and they might say well it's obviously important on went so i know what you're telling me by the goal are brought replaced be invited to play as many games as possible not to win that particular game even though he was one. So you lay out is ethic which is to make yourself the best elaborated. The most desirable awesome collaborator across the longest terribly of large number of people. And then you can vote these techniques to use which about him being cold harsh niche it techniques of manipulation. God's going to say the big difference manipulation influence is really where you taken manipulations is up trying to hurt you influences. When i'm trying to help you save set of skills but where you coming from where you're trying to go right right now. With the lowest business relationships senate most business relationships ari back relationships. I was really struck by his stephen. The business world and his knee academic world has in the academic world. You put forward a claim on at least in the more scientifically oriented deals. The validity of your claim is dependent on the degree to which she all proper scientific procedure. So there's an objective way of sesing your rebellion in business a lot softer than having some manner. Because the measurement techniques process near the person's ability aren't something here and so relationship rebounds crucial and and it's very interesting to me to understand as the as the older makes capitalism. Is jesse human. Brains you under this. Under the necessity of it shows how tightly associated successful business development is with paying the game with other people and avoid cynicism about the process. I would say yeah. I agree completely. I mean nor are co author a book written between myself. My son brandon. Tall russ. Tall is a brilliant dude. I mean i would read anything any business book that he's written. I'd read any of his poetry but agreed is business books in one of the things he pointed out to us. By definition is a species. You only one of us had survived or the ones that collaborate were hardwired to collaborate. Should increase your collaboration skills. More people are going to want to do business with you and to your point. It's not always that measurable intermediate number. It may be a secondary and tertiary benefit. But you become wealthy by being great collaborator. Is there any difference. Negoti name with women versus longman on. That's a loaded question for sure. I we're gonna get into differences between men and women. I would love to do that. Because women take this style of negotiation of faster than the men at the top end and we got some fairly no qualitative data to back that up. Women are it's hard. there's so much nurture going on. It's hard to separate nature from nurture women are nurtured more to pick up on motion sooner. They're they're nurtured more to pick up on soft power sooner inhabit appreciation for emotional dynamics and how to utah power and so. That's why. I think that women have a tendency to be better at this. I mean some people that great negotiators the biggest fans ever women said soft power boys and little girls little boys taught to fight little girls the woman that bring them up. I know that inevitably the not going to be the more physically powerful so they are. They are nurtured early on to figure out how to get things without physically fighting. Oh how'd you get shaft negotia. That is the challenge independent on a couple of different hacks and all take practice just like any other soft skill. If you're genuinely curious it's not possible to get upset if you can stay in a genuinely genuinely curious frame of mind. You one of the people on a big fan of stephen kotler talks about the psychology of flow highly positive state of mind curiosities positive. You're smarter your brain is quicker and when you're genuinely curious you can't get angry interesting cat. Run across recently. Daryl davis daryl davis black musician utah talks klu klux klan members to quit clan. And i had a conversation with him about it and people say why. How do you get upset with these people. But you know you're black dude. They they openly say that they want to murder you he says well. I grew up internationally. I just look at it as a different culture. I'm just completely curious about where they're coming from. And what are they thinking about. It leaves him in a state of mind where he can deal with people that are against him. Personally that's interesting. One of the most useful general site lauch tackling see relationship flight and its challenges. His bond terry exploration and it's a particular large won't be very old grain center known as el maslansky full of basic prides like Hunger and thirst and temperature regulation defensive aggression and part of it also console of exploration so switching motive alter aspiration that's a motive being the stevie are wired invalid fewing higher the but it allows you to dig up information frighten an information scout and so and that's because you can trade information valuable things like no so If you if you're in this. I was starting. You buy your emphasis on unknown unknowns. Last ones again. You said you're listening very carefully. People even picked up these unknown unknowns and that is a consequence voluntary expiration. And having it's useful take on those normally the conversation. You're having presently but he has a what consequences for that on the station. These observations down road and so good. Now you just described opens himself up and says these people fought naked. There's some valuable things. I learned from them artist bar distances pain and and those things are of such value that they might be ordering and it is useful to approach in that this that everyone you encounter is a goldmine day formation specially. They don't therefore his option you don't wall and and you let something new as a consequence us later that just in your own veins which is reassuring off relating all completely true i mean and by definition the unknown unknowns it's really worthy hidden stuff overlaps in any given interaction. Your side is hide and stuff. I'm hiding stuff. How do we know what happens when we when when the hidden overlap. That's why do you can always be made better overall. Who i think for another practical and i to tell me this was going to be practical. Interpol we have some fun. Dad dad has fun. I just asked the back in my hats on the nation. But i if you're trying to. I think the one negotiations that were vastly. Everyone is how to go to whoever working for and signed at one month but for a raise. And i know especially if more raval why a lot of words i have no idea where start so jets or those shooting rays yes sure. Get her off to get raises. The price tongue any negotiation sat you salaried page of bills. But it doesn't build your career takes care of the immediate problems. What are you long-term. Prompt you long term problems. Or how do you build a career job negotiations to be about building your career making you so more viable to the team i wanted to things is going to happen. Your salaries gonna get drug along as a result. Or if it's not your more viable and shop yourself to the highest bidder. How you become more viable. Here's a phrase for every job negotiation for every annual review. How can i be guaranteed to be involved in the strategic projects that are critical to the company's future instantaneous. Change in a way your employer fusion because when you go in and ask for raise empathy is about. How does your the side so you give said see you as selfish and most employers most bosses whenever the employee comes walking in the door after something for themselves. You condition your boss. You're selfish. you may not like that reality. it's unfortunately the reality when you change the conversation to. How can i help us all prosper. Now suddenly your boss. Your employer goes like whole now. Here's somebody wanna have around. Here's somebody's gonna to make my life. Better compensation is instantly transformed now. Either you'll get more money. You'll have greater experiences because also you don't want to be involved in a mundane at work. You want to see if your courageous you want the big ticket item. You wanna have an impact and then even if they don't give you a raise. The experience of being involved makes you five times more marketable than you were before the year started. So you you're vice. Basically is much broader mindset. Yet is something. Like how can i be often successors and why most as going from require is being a key player. In the most important things that the company does that's also been he allied with the willingness to take on additional responsibilities not to see that as navy lost avoid responsibility. But his if you've been taken on voluntarily his there's no difference between responsibility opportunity if the company is offering. Yeah what is that responsibility to you now. The highest levels of your company now have investment in making sure you succeed so you just gone from being. Maybe somebody struggling by themselves. Your responsibilities a critical to the everybody's future and everybody has a stake in you doing well. Because that's what you've taken on. I mean it's it's a virtuous cycle if you yes nelson makes you difficult to replace therefore much more effectively who salary sheesh a man absolutely. You had some really nice very practical tips for people. Negotiating initial salary. I thought you really smart One was if if if you're being interviewed for a new position and you're asked to find your starting salary to offer a range to say something like well. People in this position are often offered a hundred and twenty five to one hundred seventy five thousand dollars year as a starting salaries and to strategically do that. Something your desired salaries in the bottom end of that rage about well the that. Yes well. it's good question. Yes is the short answer. According to the. But i it's interesting that you would brazen s all for that has that is the danger of techniques that they can become manipulative. So that's why i wanted to talk about. The broader ethic can win and you also mentioned that it smart or someone who's negotiating or the first edition to also negotiate. Metrics spend their first grades which is even more for rights like you negotiate for how your salaries venture about it and how what it's going to be right at the beginning. I like me this question what we are now offering as range offering of a rage as now manipulative. I'm a nice guy. Just talk about that as manipulated art so from the talks that have heard you give jordan and some other stuff there's always additional nuances and factors to consider. You wanna stay off a one thing first of all just because what you're worth and what they can pay. You might not lineup and the experience for being. There may be more viable than adults. I gotta tell you right now. I go work for minimum wage to be warren buffett's assistant for a year. I will get him coffee. I would do anything and i and i do. I might do it for free. It'll be a position where i would learn so much. It's as much not handcuffing near the side in making somebody they can't get based on the number. You're looking for a great marriage so the range is to feel them out understand also when you give a range ended in the other side's within that range they're gonna take the end that most favors them so if you're gonna give a range you better be willing to accept the bottom number in the middle right right. What are the practical aspects of ranges question. I haven't relationship jim to that was exactly. I mean i guess maybe you could answer I would be happy with something in the range of one hundred and ten thousand two hundred and fifty thousand and because if you have to point out that other companies are making offers in this range. You have no for sure that other companies were may. There's no sense may adding a false negotiation for the purpose of picking up an advantage that seems to be very ads strategy. Also bad idea. I'm against any sort of deception by commission or omission. So yeah 'specially on that point now. I know it's accusation audit Talk about bad little bit. That's that was something iphone. Now he derived from your analysis of courtroom behavior lawyers. I've never well it added to it. I mean seeing it working in different in different areas and it definitely added to our thinking. What if you don't mind yeah. Well you know it's first of all it's Know the lawyers would call getting out the uglies in advance. If you if you got to witness it does some ugly things about you. Bring it up. I the jury reconcile himself to before they listened to anything else. I work with some great prosecutors. When i was with the fbi southern district in new york now in in business it's understanding what the negatives on advance would crazy is when we begin to proactively get out in front of them. Like if i if i let's say you got no negative about me at all but i'm getting ready to say something that you're not going to like i say look you think i'm a real jerk for bringing us up and then when i bring it up it'll have far less impact. You'll never know what i headed you off from. And that's why we really aggressive with going after the negatives early on and calling them up yes. Accusation audit allows you to mail on the table. All the weaknesses of your position and your character about matt and so there's a variety of reasons that might be useful one is the by getting your willingness to admit to these falls. New sheldon the ulcers. Long awesome that someone could admit having asked the first thing and the second thing is you. Show yourself as someone who's larger than their faults. It hasn't been willing to admit right. So you minimize the fall in some sense. Even though you're presenting rack accurately minimize the ramoche decrease the rebels impact and increase the integrity of your same. He's should be done honestly. not as narrow. If you do an accusation it should be a genuine wa and it should be doing in parts of the view. This amulet sunday. You are also as a as you get as aware as you need to be on the shortcomings you negotiate. Yeah yes i remember. I don't know if you open to give. But i remember coming home and i like some sort of terrible isn't exactly it's m such terrible. Jason was living best. this happened. Just kidding but this actually did happen and it would be. The second thing would be smaller. And i found that that really worked on by thank. God that's happened. That's not an accusation on this is that's an anchor in correct all dependent upon how you deployed. There's a combination of both there. Yeah so we can talk about the anchoring techniques as well we could. I mean you guys have show. We'll talk about it because you got me hostage here. I'm your age and it sounds like you feel like you're a hostage. I'll take it all day long. What is the angering check. You describe that well. yeah. I mean The inquiry technique. And we were you anchor on a number and we don't ain't on numbers but i i will tell you we anchor emotionally. I if somebody wants to know what somebody wants to know what. I charge her consulting. I'm going to say hi more than you had more than you ever pay. And we're not moving forward in this conversation until you asked me to give you the number now net period of time that we waited. You're going to think of some crazy number. And when i give you my number you're gonna say like that. Isn't that bad. War comes with that and we now made the numbers. Something that that is irrelevant. What's relevant really in all business. Negotiations is delivery and we over deliver so anchoring that was very subtle. Ucla bring or or description. Bank near anchoring technique occurs legend that. You're always interpreting wesley. One context of some sort. And so how big something is depends on the context. And so maybe you'd a house savings were hundred and thirty five thousand dollars and you find out. The person wants june have million for it. Well then if they come down to five hundred thousand. You're going to think that's pretty reasonable. Because they anchored you actually even though you thought it was only a hundred and thirty five thousand so that is what i did. nice very very treacherous in sepia. You yeah you still do that. I don't think so. I don't think so but i'm not from wants to raise the level your skills. We gotta get you guys more money. You know. we'll we'll go flying or give you some coaching next time. Next time you'll be. You'll being one of five houses that you wanted to be and you'll have studios all over the planet. You being fangio. You know australia. I help with getting along or negotiating wage to angry and my husband is his amazing at it and he said i read your book and early good negotiators. That's what he side. Jill i was like. I don't get along very well. Gavitt look where we are Did you ever win out round okay. Another another Hint neutralize the negative reinforcement positive. What do you mean by that. Well simply calling out. The negatives has a neutralizing effect on them to some degree every time every single time. Now how much. The effect is very soon but again if we go back to the neuroscience stuff in the mid seventy five percent. Negative you neutralize the negative. You get an opportunity for the positive to pick up some ground fi say seems like you wanna make a deal if you genuinely do then that will reinforce the feeling seems like a long term relationship seems like tons of important to you that will reinforce those positive aspects. If i say seems like a hate uncertainty that you were feeling in the moment will diminish how much it diminishes. I may need to neutralize several times to get it out of the way but again our our neuro science wiring has laid out. A lot of people like you have instinctively. Come to know from your practice in your interaction with people where you guys were finding your way before we could map. What was going on inside the brain. Are you married i. There is an ex. Mrs voice on. I'm looking for the future ex. Mrs voice your narrative. Stale as quincy boarding vocation now what. It really failed as a consequence of what all relationships fail. And it's no good no bad but a misalignment of core vides and there were things that were important me that were important to her and vice versa business relationships personal relationships at the end of the day. It's no good or bad on either side. It's just a enough of a difference in core values that you're entitled to go your way and i'm entitled to go mind and nobody's wrong right so eric sign of different since -nology for it used to be that used to be separate browns for divorce. Yeah yeah i mean. You're not rolling on the wrong. We just don't match. How have the skills that you learn as a hostage. Negotiator effect in your. You're more intimate relationships. It's helped me to be more attentive. It's an ongoing process. I'm still learning. I'm still making mistakes. I i hope to be learning and making mistakes for at least i say i'm a third of the way through my life. Maybe another one hundred years but you know the idea dialing into somebody and habit of better long-term relationship even thinking about that and getting better on very important to me. So i still make mistakes but you know i don't. I don't want anybody to regret having had a relationship although some dope everybody. How do you negotiate with someone who say hostage situation. Doesn't wanna talk to you or is that you can do guests on stop is there will take a step back if somebody's been tight lipped one or two things that are happening. First and foremost is probably. Don't feel like talking to do any good because you're not listening. People get tight lipped. Because isn't doing them any good now. They could be trapped at a corner and it could be helpless or you could be not listening. The they're three possibilities other reason for being tight lipped tight-lipped people trust incredibly. And they're a little bit afraid of how vulnerable they are because when they trust they go all in and they've been hurt. They've been badly hurt. So they're cautious. Because you resemble somebody that hurt him in the past so you think about what. The possibilities are first of all just adapt and begin. Look i haven't clearly. I have on you trust you. Well if it's not about trust but they're helpless they're going to correct going to say it's not about trust i. There's nothing i could do. I'm trapped. There's no way i could go but at that moment of time you're in you're now you're dialogue understanding. What really is dialogue. Even denial style. Somebody opens. somebody gives you more than one word response. Who is previously tight lipped now. They're testing to see if you're gonna listen if you're going to understand or if you're going to contradict or argue lipped with other people who are argument on any orbits has one of noor are not doing offer. Positives what she started out. Yeah of course allowed. Which was terrorists left me. Terrace ninety one of those two straight cases in philippines. And we we talk about both of them in the book One one the though the bad guy in hillside sociopathic raping murdering killing straight out of movies terrorists type of person. That empathy is not supposed to work on. The other side feels understood when the other side says that's right in a critical moment in that negotiation. And what. I really was was an international negotiation coach on coaching people in countries. Who coach and i. I'm coaching a guiding benching. He's imminently cultural. We summarize the bad guys point of view. You guys have been oppressed for five hundred years. Americans are horrible. Philippine governments horrible. You know everything everything. He said. Five hundred years worth emotional. Baggage guy literally says that's right. In that instance. Ten million dollar ransom demand evaporated disappeared off the table couple months later. Were continuing into negotiation. No more monetary demands for the hostage none non non-monetary demands continued application of what we now referred to his tackle empathy. Hostage walks away on monday thursday. The thursday before easter walked away. I'm back in the philippines. Three weeks later connected. Backup with benji working another case. He says you're not going to believe in me on the phone. Terrorist called him on the phone to tell him respected powerful stuff because we were engage with the same group again and the guy the terrorists are sociopathic called to express his respect for how he was treated had lost everything in the negotiation. They wanted ten million. They get zero so that stuff works works on everybody. It always leaves you better off. Does avi net he. This terrorist was nationally interesting. Ten million was actually interested in being instead. Out of the way through the other side is interested in is the best. They could do one of the things that i learned about in really kidnapping negotiations. Globally kidnapping is a commodity exchange. They're businessmen on the other side and what they're really interested in is the best that they could do and the best you could do is often defined by how you feel during the process of the outcome so they wanted ten million dollars or the best that they could possibly do. What is ten million dollars bite. Innocence ten million dollars buys you influence. They started asking for other things of bottom influence. Let's get certain. Intermediaries involves certain politicians. We want access to people if we have more money. What we spend money on ultimately guns a guns get your guns get you influence. Ultimately people want soft power so when they started looking for something else after having their anger being deactivated they also lost control of their operation which created the circumstances or hostage walking away a good things. It sounds ridiculous. Good things fall out of the sky if you let them have. And that's one of the reasons to engage in this approach to negotiations. Something good is going to happen if you if you if you give it the opportunity. Tell me what your company does exactly. You were hired by a by a business. What we code in a week coach. We get high businesses all the time but we really coach high-performance to better lives coops too high promise. Well yeah i mean. The people that are drawn to assert the high performance and mark. And he's is were pointed much more than individuals and companies again. We coach companies but companies by-in-large a relatively dysfunctional daniel coyle in the cultural code. Thank you point out to stand that. Only six percent of corporate executives could actually recite their corporate baggage while forty percent forty percent native value company. Yeah they go right. Yeah so these these are. These are people that are struggling with themselves. Though low new training we coach people into they're making better lives for themselves and their families that are top performers typically people that we coach in negotiations are cutting two or three life changing deals a year as opposed to one every five or six years. Everybody that's that that we coach then. We were coaching last year or wealthier right now than they were a year ago. How did they find while. Black swan ltd is Is the website bhilai. Ck as wfan ltd dot com. The the first step is a book which you know you kind enough to to look through and and appreciate and and recognize how much you know. We're in sync with on our thinking and then come website. We got free stuff. Download subscribe to our newsletter. It's free it's actionable. Give us a chance to to put your family too. Big a bigger house. Send your kids to a better school. I i don't know. I like the difference so i always thought in goshi asian nance somebody. Who's going to do here. Somebody has this year and you watch you find male ground. What exactly did you mean by never slept with us. you know. it's it's a two way street but splitting the difference. First of all fool's errand for a number of reasons compromise you know. Do you compromise. Your principles are there was a there was a call about merrill married couple longtime ago husband and wife talking to each other and the husband says. Let's compromise that way. We'll both be unhappy. Compromise way to guarantee to both unhappy now. Some people say well a great negotiations were. Both sides are unhappy marriage. Both sides are unhappy. That's a definition of long term unhappiness. So besides knowing what you want don't compromise and meet in the middle. You're both going to be happy now. You now what the other side wants may be even better than what you had in mind. A colleague of friend a mentor. Somebody we do business with a guy named dan. Sullivan recently wrote a book called. Who not how. He coaches the greatest entrepreneurs world. He heard me give a talk in decided how he's gonna take a position with his partners on his book. The book that he just put out the people that he collaborated with he gave them every dime. Because i said sometimes with the other side wants give them what they want. The guys that he collaborated with on that book giving them every dime from the book because the amount of business is going to develop for his company which is going to be. They're killing themselves for him. I was. I was on a conference call with ben hardy and tucker max tucker max's a famous author known right tucker says and got every drop of our blood on this book. Dan gave them every dime from the book because he knew how much it was going to bring him long-term so never split the difference also the other side given their position and they will kill themselves for you. Yeah so it's it's interesting because compromise is a reasonable way of construing negotiation. I think if you deadlocked and you have to make a decision and and was also in time crash so then it seems to be under those circumstances that would be a reasonable heuristic to say what will start the difference. You will be unhappy. No how dare you there. You know no no. Let let me get off that out for because there is something about initiation. This is is inextricably associated with compromise. I don't think that's the best way of conception sexualizing negotiation has social. See because the list this this part and they're gonna think no no. Sometimes you know my okay. I wanna push because push me. Don't push me hug me. Gimme a hug bush. I think we can get the end wealth. So look if you're negotiating with your your your child seven yucel out nine thirty and you wanted to mandate thirty. What's wrong with splitting the difference. Why don't nasty situation split the difference. Okay see i'm just. I don't think it's reasonable for a while. The idea the at your name calling had. Will you call me names now. While i'm maybe. I'm just thinking they just digging up. The reasons for the marriage collapsed. So anyway do you do think there are any circumstances under which the proper way of conceptualizing negotiation is as compromise. So his first problem with compromise. And i know you're familiar with any cattlemans. Prospect theory lost things twice as much as an equivalent game. The downward spiral get into compromise. Let's say united meet in the middle. Neither one of us are gonna felt we mountain that met in the middle. Because i'm a human being and i'm wired so the lost twice as much as an equivalent gain and a professor con actually gave an nobel prize winning april economics theory. I think he said that he thinks it's actually five to seven times as much. And he and amos diversity just said twice as much so they the fewer arguments. So let's say we meet in the middle you give in ten emotionally. You felt you gave twenty and you're not gonna feel whole until you hit me for twenty now you've hit me for twenty. I'm not gonna feel even tell you for forty this year in a downward spiral because we're human. It's impossible to compromise in a way that we both feel is fair even numbers exactly the say. Okay so then you. It seems like you would. You're making the case that go shake hands in compromise action fail. I a man okay. Well that's that's where they about. Yep because dr being night your garden was even to switch the conceptual framework around so that both walked away enrich exactly it both gonna walk away feeling heart a recipe for bed bed then sustain. Does that by. Let's say then in in business negotiation if you can go she An arrangement where you both walkway and rich and you have to diesel to compromise. If you should probably walk away no deal is better than a bad deal. Well okay so my i. I actually read just from looking at. You're going to call me names like you know. I'm i'm a very nice. That's not fair. my dad is nice person. I know i'm just teasing the with. You was looking forward to talking to you. Guys knew it was going to be fun. Yeah is out with this So i found that. When i'm trying to things i'm angry unless i changed my mind or get what i want. Which i think is like you were saying. Just ignore here. I've never felt okay. Liberal compromise so i kind of get what you're saying from there now putting a toddler to bed. My go-to is. Hey you're free. And i'm older than you. An eight o'clock is the time yet is just our ammo authorities. So that's my go-to andrea. My husband negotiates with a three year. Old and i go. You're insane for negotiating with freer old. But he can talk her into deciding she wants to go to bed at eight which is ideal but when do you use off or do you just think about attacking using authority is bad for longer and in it because you if your children you take your conditioning them that they can't win without authority. Now i would. I would ask you. Consider interactions with your children over bedtime. You're trying to get him to go to bed or you're trying to get him to think and i would offer the large reviews to get them to think and then what age how do you stimulate that thanking threes. Early four to five you really teaching your kids to thank all along what you're showing them core vice and if you get your way with your kid based on kind of a core value of your show on other times children need discipline. Human beings human beings need boundaries because it makes them feel secure stability. You could say that about this time. So yeah yeah. Everyb- everybody needs stability predictability predictability turns into trust. You your kids need to know if you're if you're going to set a line how you going to set that line and are you going to encourage him to think and become better people and we have we a lot of people use never split the difference in their interactions with their kids. And we give like. I've cut fifteen minutes off a bedtime or twenty minutes preparation time to go to bed and then the interactions with their children. Different this is. This is human nature stuff. This is really about human nature about business stores. Let's let's let's walk through less walk through a successful transformation. Sheep clients something like that. Yeah i won the spring the mine because my students at the business schools were my clients. My customers i was coaching them into better deals. One of my students is is doing a negotiation to come on with the company. And he's a. He's the best person for the job. He's worth more than what they're offering and with. The job is worth more than what they're offering. He said impasse. i can't get any more out. Said right down a list of questions that you would ask what the answer would be. Yes that would prove your case now. Flip all those questions on its head and make one of them a no oriented question and you'd be shocked which you can get away with somebody to say no you know do. Do you want me to fail. You wanna lose the the best person for the job. You want the person who takes his job to fake. He flipped all his yes. Questions no questions. He came back to me said the salary golfer that they put on the table with so much higher than what they were authorized to do. They had to go to the cfo to give them permission to do the deal now. The job negotiation young man is top analysts in his company. Making loads of money for his company wants to go back and renegotiate his his compensation package important thing here to the other side doesn't feel You go through his boss and he says myrna more more more for you than anybody else's i deserve a race and his bosses. Yeah you know. Those are all true. But i don't see how i can give you a raise. It's fair to everybody else. Who's been here longer than you put more of their life into this company. Then you should come back to me in two weeks if you can come up with a plan that shows how we can do this fairly. I'll give you the race. He comes back two weeks later. The boss said did you come up with a plan. And he said no busted why not he says. Well you make a great point. There's no way to do this. That's fair to everybody else. And the boss said yeah but it's not an issue fairness everybody else. It's an issue of how profitable you are for the company. And he gave them. The deal gave them a better salary. Compensation which was his boss's idea because he he activated the negative thinking he had his head which was interfering with it and he came back to us and he said this is going to change my life. That's a kind of stuff we get from our clients all the time they just organization right. Now we've got fifteen people in a company. And do they. All do coaching short describing. Now we've got. We've got five coaches and we get some business. Development people got back off as people. Keep bar coaches in our business development people on tech. You got a great team. Sure sure so. If i can't do for your services how would we start the process. What would happen to like zippy business. Hey answer or he has an individual more. Broadly he both we do both. We got a lot of people come to us for coaching and specific deals and we'll build a strategy in it's going to it's going to accelerate to its best outcome in a third of the time probably less now the best outcome might be that you stop wasting your time in this deal and move on. There's a there's a phrase in sales it's not a sin did not get the deal. It's take a long time to neck at the. Yeah yeah right absolutely now. That's those are the deals where it terrible ones of where it looks like something might happen. Yeah hope why. People say hope is not a strategy. Hope hope might just kill your profitability. Because you never going to get the deal so we'll coach you to a specific deals and typically almost everybody that we'd coached in a deal not only wants more for them but they want more for people in our company. We just one executive coaching for a year to sign up all of his executives for individual coaching. Because we're making so much money. Yeah well why. Thank you mentioned. Jewish they at no when the person you negotiate with says no as necessarily such bad thing and you start thinking about things this scary. When is one of the advantages to know also know celtics. True no tells you what a dead end actually is and so genuine known don't have to go sniffing down that trail and more not can stop you from death by hope was free can really did. That's right take the magic words. You had the yeah not wasting your time since since we really and this has been since the book came out is something we call proof of life for the favor of the fool. You don't know who the fool in a game has probably you. If you're the fool in a game you've got to find out. Get out a game. Go play with somebody else. At least twenty percent of every twenty percent of all business opportunities are fooling the game. What would happen if you got rid of twenty percent of the deals where you just spend your wheels. You don't even have to get any better. You just get get rid of the stuff that killing your time. Certain things like can really accelerate your success on how get his laws like that he failure is most of some sort of starting around that definition their failures muscle. It's it's chasing that they have never appeared. Kills you how do you how you can start understanding. Lindsay should quit while the more focused in a business. Interaction more focused. Somebody is on price like right off the bat if the pushing who really really hard for price ninety percent of the time you're the competing bit and the world is even though i live in vegas world is las vegas rules. You gotta get off the of the out of the game where you're winning fifteen percent of the time and you gotta get into the game where you went and seventy seventy five percent of the time the mortar pushing on price. It's a data point you're competing bid so that your first instinct. So you're in your second data rate there right now now. The next thing is i ask somebody will. We referred to his vision in question if they have any intention of moving forward with you. Which makes you the favor. Then you say all right so how would where would. How do we move on from here if they are complete loss for words than they had no intention of moving on with you because they didn't envision it before the confident that i really liked that. So that's really smart last discussing the situation with how they would envision this relationship if it was success and if they can't tell you anything then then it isn't obvious. Know what negotiation. They might be doing what he said converts price. They're paying you off against their their truce buyer. That say right right right. So what you're negotiating. Such such use way of they can vote army. You know when you're starting business with is thirty self evident needed to develop a shared vision. Otherwise you wouldn't be undertaken now but it's really easy when you have business to that what doing is selling. No you have a product and you're selling but it's much more useful. I don't think about it as if you were standing your business in taking on your home buyer as partner. Because that's actually what you're doing works properly so you're inviting them into your business and that need your business has to shift and change. Sodas there's and both have to see that as a positive thing and that is happening then the sale is going to occur is. You're actually not sell. You're actually trying to build a relationship right right and you know what even if they wanna proceed with you. You might not want that relationship. That's part of it too. Yes absolutely they lay out a vision where you know. What they're doing is not good for you. Oh yeah mean. That's a big problem. You end up with. I mean i. I i had a business deal arranged with a large corporation. The united states ten years. We're thrilled about it and then z. Yoga fired the week later and the deal to stella part eating negotiated for about a year and a half and it was literally on his desk decide and he was replaced and so it just killed it by an athlete or newer unbelievably relief as neat realized that we would have had to look down all sorts of work for the company that we would never got paid for him. When have taken responsibility was completely incommensurate with the rewards and so that was a good situation. Where yes you asked me. So i guess party have to do is not a suit. No is a disaster and noticing the yes is a blessing is sit back and see him the vision as you pointed out is is worthy of pursuing the proposed committed to it air. What's the happ. What's the how how's this out. Yes is nothing without. I mean how is everything or yes. It's dangerous about how yeah. Well yeah i mean yes without. How is a train wreck coming at. You is how long that relationship lasts. It's gonna it's gonna be blood money it's going to be painful is gonna take years off your life. You're gonna want that time back. Yeah exactly exactly an opportunity. Wish you didn't have. Yeah and you know. We have those occasionally. That's why we decide. We have bad relationships. So look i used to. I long executive coaching And like you. I my clientele were high-performance. The asked the companies with whom we work to send us their high and we would increase their productivity. Now i basically for the individual not for the common right and my goal was to make their life better on the assumption that that makes more productive so i did how to redo it and staying sprints at home with the lawyers were most event far more vacations after they worked with me for a few months. But they're give any went up at our. our strategy. icebound was help. The person develop an overarching vision for their life That was well dalits and israel of your life has to be sustainable if it's to allow must be sustainable if it's not sustainable by definition if needs downhill and to be sustainable it has to be developed in a variety of areas have sacrificed wanting to break your heart across time. How much you'd think. Success in business and success in negotiations is dependent on the development of global vision or or what constitutes a successful life was negotiate. And you need to know why you negotiate. That's a deep question. Why yeah i think completely you know where where is taking me. Vision drives decision to its stonning. What people will do if they feel. It's taking them someplace wonderful. Yes and they won't do the simplest things that they feel either useless or taking them to a bad place. Yes thank god that. Why should you do something. Let's take you somewhere berry right. Yes so yeah. The vision vision drives decision. Worst taken us and that and that is almost all and it's an head anyway that is so if interacting with me it just makes you happier to start with. You're gonna want more of it if you know that. I'm dedicated to your success as well as my own. Then you can trust me but you secrets and we'll come up with a better deal because you see that. I'm a great long term partner. What's a long term relationship dedicated to you being happy. I mean just one of the reasons that people in my company we love working together because we love helping people plus. We're all helping each other to a better life. Yes so i was in asked you about your vision your vision. What what would that be your vision from for for for made for my life for for the people that are work with well both both of us both of those years but also that obviously because you were these your vision of has have their hesitations for how you reach them for first of all for people to be happier in the day to day. Interactions in what do you mean by. What do you mean by. Having a specific reason for us miss lori nanshan de equal or a much more verse loss than the are Real by dave right. Lotta times biko part about happy what they need less misery rather than more promotion. They less less uncertain less pain less. Wrap this right right right. So women say happen. You need happier. Do you mean more secure. And yeah i mean. We are Across the board the people that we that we work with that. I work with that. We coach we enjoy what we're doing. We don't feel like we're doing anything but he's expense right. We don't feel like we're exploiting anybody won't our clients on a regular basis are not just making more money but enjoying their jobs more and we weekly. You wear meeting earlier today. Were sort of wrapping up. Twenty twenty where we completely pivoted. Our business had a ball dealing with the crisis because we worked so well together as a team and are actually serving more people. And you know it's not a primary objective but we're more profitable this year than we were last year. Which means we get to do more next year. We get a meet more cool people. The people the people we meet on a regular basis. Who want to get better and want to make the world. A better place are fun people to be around. Oh yeah that's a good deal. That's yeah so like. I mentioned dan sullivan earlier as interesting cat. Everybody steven kotler get interactions with steven kotler. One of the most interesting guys on a plaque about making the world a better place you just fun to be around your fund my son. I think i'm i'm on when i'm on not sign when i'm not on the issue persons. I think i think he's i time and i think i think we're so. Thank you so much going on I was talking. I really like the fact that i really right never split the different. That really really. Resonated doesn't because whenever i do some sort of compromise i have lost i also really if no that never owned the difference than making usage if rot way and that's really important now it may be don't want if you're talking is person in this. I i think that's very valuable. Where places confined. What are your social media at the fbi negotiator on instagram. But really the best way i. I helped people as much as they want. We we get a free negotiation newsletter. We put out. It's not so important that it's free what's really what's best about a concise short reap. I mean some people put out newsletters fifteen articles. You don't know what to do with the newsletter is a gateway to everything we have if i may for. The website is black swan ltd dot com delay. Ck swat swat ltd dot com. We've got a text to sign up function also which is simple. It only works in the us. And i'm sure you've got a global audience but in the us if you text to the number thirty three triple seven. Three three seven seven seven. Send a message. Black swan method three words. Capitalization doesn't matter space between each word. You get a dialog box back if you want only if you want. Sign up for the newsletter. We'll help you. We'll move you forward. We we we love helping. People provide just had more fun and have more off great meeting. That was an absolute pleasure. Being all of both of you guys talk me. Yeah good luck. I hope that you didn't continue seeking back to help. People help themselves and by helping the world better place when shadings that might sound unless it's replaced by better philosophy is pretty good. It'll do it'll do it'll do. Yeah my pleasure. Thanks guys

harvard peterson Voss michaela peterson chris voss Voss jordan peterson black swan group chris boss chris fbi carl robinson hickel rogers youtube Tall russ Negoti stephen kotler Daryl davis daryl davis
EP. 387 - Converting Klansmen ft. Daryl Davis

Mark Bell's Power Project

2:45:47 hr | 1 year ago

EP. 387 - Converting Klansmen ft. Daryl Davis

"Power Project Crew. Thank you for taking that. Today's episode today's episode recorded on May eighth and an amazing episode. We have for you today. Today's guest is the one and only. Daryl Davis and Davis has an amazing story. Darryl has helped over two hundred klansmen turn in their robes and kind of turn a new leaf all by just having simple conversations with them Darryl is also a musician author and of course he writes about his interactions with KKK members. And you know some of the INS and outs of the actual organization and like I said it's it's extremely interesting His point of view on things. You know the compassion the empathy that he displays. It's unlike anything else we've ever you know we've ever seen. So we dove deep into some of his experiences with these klansmen. That are essentially his friends. Now which is a crazy thought. He did all through conversations. We also dove deep into his His music career. You know. He's a great musician and so we got a good a good handle on. Who is biggest influences were or are and who has mentors were so some really really cool stuff and we did get his take on the Ahmad situation so again like I said this a very powerful episode. I don't WanNa take anymore guy's time so if you appreciate this episode. Please reach out to us on Instagram at Marseils Power Project INSTAGRAM ON TWITTER AT MB Power Project. And let us know what you guys think and ladies and gentlemen. Please enjoy the show with the Amazing Daryl Davis and we're going and we're good if somebody wanted some snacks and they didn't want all the carbohydrates. Where would they go? Encima KITO COOKIES. No saying they would go to and Seema like stick little nibble out of him because he's not a snack modest snack. I will not be eaten. That's not my yeah yeah. Those perfect cookies are crash. You gotta be careful with them. I'm only going to allow myself like to bring one back home at a time and keep the rest at us to 'cause they're too damn good. I don't know how you guys do that like James Smith you know who would call you mental by not like by putting half of the The package back or whatever it might might be. I see that box and I'm like there's a good chance of that. That box might disappear. I'm really had Evan Carmichael. He liked to have like the stuff around. The House on purpose built his willpower to build his strength. Mary had like Doritos next or something right. Yeah Yeah and you were saying that like well if you if you smell that might cause an insulin response. And he's like he's like whoops. Yeah I like the perfect. Kito bars a lot to anybody. That's interested anybody that wants to follow a low carb diet or just wants a snack. That doesn't have a lot of carbohydrates in it and also doesn't have any artificial sweeteners. Make sure you check out the stuff they got over perfect Kito Dot com and you can do so at perfect Kito Dot com slash power twenty five at checkout enter Promo Code Power Project for twenty five percents off any order of twenty nine dollars or more. Who Do we got onto they mark. We Got Daryl Davis on show today. I'm really excited. Yeah really excited to have him on there on our show today. He has converted a lot of Klu Klux Klan members He has I guess like de-robed them so to speak He's taken down a lot of walls. And a Lotta Barriers said People have When it comes to racism and Super excited to talk to him about it today. I remember when I was a kid. I was probably about six years old and my neighbor friend. He was African American. He was actually from Africa and I remember asking him. I said I said Hey. Man Why are you black and eat? And he looked at me and it was like South Park. You know thing like South Park Characters. Like they blink. Yeah and I and he says to me he goes he goes. I don't know he's like why are you white and it made my mind explode. Because I wasn't even thinking about that I was just kind of thinking of like why. Why are he and his family that color and you know and then when he threw it back to me I was like? That's a that's a really. That's a really good question. I don't know so I asked. My parents and my parents were like well. People are different colors than my dad. Who always like goes deep into explanation. He's like okay. Well here's the equator. He's like some people live closer to the sun and they get different color and over the years that I was really confused at that but I remember Like being curious like you know. Why is he different color and then when he threw it back to me it really opened my eyes like Oh yeah. Kids are the best with that stuff. 'cause like you know they'll get even sometimes. I'll get part of it right but also be just totally wrong you know and then you also yeah like being kids you just like you don't really I don't to. I mean the Cliche is like I don't see color but kids literally don't care They I know there has been some things where they put like a face of like somebody who's not attractive or they are like who do you. WanNa play with. And they always go for the attractive but they don't care what color the skin is until maybe later down the road when they learn some now they just see that they're like that other person's kind of similar shape to me like yeah they're they're lower to the ground like. I am and I WANNA I wanNA play with them. Yeah Yeah Yeah now kids though they they can they can show us a lot of the stupid things that we think because like if a kid ask you a question like why do you think about that person. You know what I mean. You know what I mean like. It's just out of curiosity innocence. But it really does make you think of an it makes you realize sometimes how stupid certain beliefs are because they'll ask those questions you know what I mean so this is going to be a good one. This is the the reason I think because I remember. I thought about him when we put out that episode on guitar and people are like. You shouldn't even have a conversation with you like you shouldn't even give him a platform for a conversation and announced thinking wise. It's such a damn problem to just have a conversation with somebody even if you guys have differing beliefs and that's kind of what that is exactly what he did with all the Klan members that he's able to D- rope and he was saying like That you know people should be able to have a conversation at dinner table. People should be able to talk about the things that are hard to talk about. Because you know nowadays you have so much access to communicate with so many people you could tech somebody you know here in California and you can take somebody who's in Japan or New York or Chicago and we can text funny things and say funny things or we could put out a tweet or post somewhere And have a lot of people see it but we can't really talk to our neighbor We just want to understand the people that we WANNA understand and for some reason. We don't care about anything else and I think In America that that happens probably probably too often I think that America is viewed as being Very naive and very arrogant. Just in general not arrogant Just ignorant more more so than anything else and when I when have traveled To a few different countries our guest today has been in like fifty seven different countries. Or something like that. So that'll be cool to talk to him about about travel. But when I've traveled in the past and just I just flat out ask people questions you know and and I would usually say I'm American. Which is signed to them? The high what I'm talking about because you know we have it good here and so there's really not a lot of reasons to think about other people We have a good every day. We probably don't really recognize. I've mentioned this before in the show. I most of the people that I know have a refrigerator full of food and a freezer full of food and sometimes they got a second fridge and a pantry. Full of food got air conditioning. We got heat. We got automobiles We have streaming videos that we can watch got entertainment. You know we we. Have we have everything so like what's left? You know you'd figure okay. Well what's left after that would be to maybe think about the people that don't have that but we don't really think that we don't really go there and It just creates a lot of can create a lot of a lot of divide. You know when you don't know when you know or ever question anything about Other ethnicities or other races. Then all you're going to know is probably what you're taught in this country. There's been a lot of racism for a lot of years and so to unwind all that Is taking a long time and it will probably go on forever. Because I think that I think racism has always been around. I think it's just the United States problem. I think you know we were talking before we jumped on here today. The Your skin tone your skin color. How has been interpreted as an issue? I I think for a very long time. I mean there's been slaves for very very long time And it's not always just African American but it's people love people of Color Period I don't know why that has happened. I don't know understand the how it came to be but it just is and Hopefully today with Daryl Davis hopefully we can have a much better understanding of why this exists and with that newfound understanding. Hopefully we can move forward and be more understanding of each other. Yeah and what I also like about his approach or his You know like this. This grand idea is kind of taking like taboo out of racism like being okay with like talking about it to your kids and stuff like there's been you know like I can't think of a perfect example right now but we're like I've been talking to somebody and I've been like. Oh yeah like my buddy. Encima dudes jacked. He's awesome big black dude when I say like he's black like I get. I get the is you know or I've heard other people trying to explain in a union correct mill now in. Ncaa like if my thought process is incorrect. But like when I talked to someone else and they want to explain a black person the kind of look around like they're black. Those and I remember the first time I heard that being like it. Is it a secret that no one else can can hear that? Like saying the guy's skinny right. I don't I just is tall. Yes yeah and then so like when when I described like somebody you know I just feel like. Oh you know black dude awesome. Done it out like it's not the first thing I say but I don't have issue saying it but however it seems like like you almost can't say and it's like well what's the I don't get it my girlfriend and I were talking about that thing And I it's I think it's just something that's kind of developed especially in US language right because you know when we're when we're talking about like a like yeah like a big like. Oh He's a big dude usually like even myself Amal like he's a like one explaining it to her. Something else is big white dude or whatever but when you're explaining somebody of another ethnicity you. There is a distinction that needs to be made. And it's it's probably a distinction just because there is a majority and there's a minority and when you're having to explain someone who's a minority yet to explain. Yeah this big Asian do that. I met big black do that. I met And when you do that a lot of people they look around and there they they try to be careful because those types of people they are well meaning you know what I mean. It's not like they're they're not they're not trying to say anything bad they're trying to just Trying to be careful with their language. You know so people. Just trying to be respectful probably. They're not sure if they should If they should say that and I think maybe they're not sure of the relevance of it. How relevant how relevant is it but even even the name insieme you know seems quote. Unquote Weird Right. But it's weird to us. But it's not weird to your. It's not weird to where you're from right a lot of other encinas right and and Men in Nigeria. The names look different than they look at you right very very Mr Guy on. I wonder if he's going to sing for us or place on using imagine. Hello Hello Hello. Are you sitting at a piano sir? I am not actually Oh man. I was hoping that's the way that we can start off. Today's show toby toby better for you. Totally shops fantastic to have you on the show today Really appreciate your time. Yeah we've listened to your story and You know I. I love the message that you have of. How could somebody hate me when they don't even know me and I'll just Proposed what I think. The answer to. That question might be I just think it's just a misunderstanding. Misconception what are your thoughts and what have you Come to recognize you know after fifty years I know that's a simplification of everything but after fifty years of Digging through this from time you're ten years old What have you come to the conclusion of if you have come to any sort of conclusion? Yes absolutely and the answer to the question is ignorance at. I have been in fifty seven countries on six continents and I have performed in forty nine breath fifty states so I have literally been exposed to a multitude of ethnicities religions traditions Cultures Socio Economic Status Etcetera. And all of that has helped shape my perspectives and at the end of the day. What I've concluded is no matter to what ends of the Earth I go. How many different people that meet at the end of the day we all human beings and we all want the same things Unfortunately you know what we have here in. Our country is somewhat unique. You know they is a discrimination of different kinds of countries that say in Israel of course the Palestinians in Lebanon the Christians and the Muslims in Ireland. The Protestants and the Catholics in in In Rwanda at one time who took sneeze et CETERA. So discrimination does exist but we had our country is somewhat a little different because we owned a we own them as property as slaves and. And we've never gotten over that and for good reason A. We've never received an apology. A lot of it is fact ignorance but the thing of it is interest can be cured and we spend a lot of time addressing the wrong aspects of the the the stepchildren of ignorance which are fear and hatred and destruction. We we tend to address. Atri. We tend to address fear These are byproducts of ignorance because I believe that ignorance is what breeds fear. We feel those things. We don't understand those things of which we are ignorant If we don't keep that fear in check then that fear will escalate and breed hatred because we hate the things that frighten us if we don't keep that hatred check that hatred in turn will escalate and breed destruction so if we cure the ignorance which we can an and there is a cure for ignites that is called education if we cure the ignorance then we have nothing to fear because we understand so if we have nothing to fear that something to hate if there's nothing to hade there's nothing to destroy so we gotta go to the source. The source is ignorance just like if you have cancer in the bone. You can't put a band-aid on top of your skin. You gotTA drill down to the source. I'm so curious about this because When you're talking about Educating people right You d road over two hundred clan members and The you know thinking about most of us like I would not be willing to talk to that type of individual number one because I I would think that. There's no way that they could be changed. Belief is so deep right that they hate you just because of the color of your skin or because of what you're bonus Most people wouldn't be willing to to have a conversation with that type of individual or even to want to be in the same room type of individual What was it within you that made you want to actually not just have conversations with them but even as they are continuing to hold those beliefs about you they were looking at you and talking to you and they obviously felt a certain way about you and beliefs or things about you that you still willing to be friends with them. Not just talk with them. Well here's the thing you would want to have a conversation with those people as as you said but yet you're having a conversation with me who who believes in the power change now just like you. I grew up doing the same cliches and quotes. A tiger. Doesn't change his stripes elaborate agenda spots. Why would a clansman changes robinhood? You know it's a good question right. Well the fact is the Leopard and the tighter were born with those stripes and spots a clansman clans woman or Neo Nazi with those two hundred include awesome. Yeah NAZIS TO SAKE WHATEVER BUT ANYWAY. They were not born being racist. You don't inherit. Racism genetically is something that you acquire to learn behavior certain. Granted I I. I agree with you sometimes. It is very very deep rooted because it's been in their family for years. My my grandfather was a clansman. My daddy was a flange and so I'm a Klansman. My kids are going to be plan. People you know federal tradition passed down. That's very deep-rooted But again it's a learned behavior and they can be unlearn and let me tell you something that happens with me when I give lectures I I do fifty to eighty lecture in year. All over the country and around the world mostly universities colleges sometimes corporations companies organizations churches synagogues police departments etc but most colleges and universities. I've come to learn this two to three out of every ten lectures. I give I at the end. I'll do a Qa and I bring some robes into this with me that I acquired from these people when they ended up And people will answer the. I mean I'll ask you the questions at the end the QNA undone still. There'll be students who come up to the podium to ask one last question or they wanNA touch one of the roads or whatever two or three out of ten times. They'll be one student standing over there the justice and I've come to learn what's going to happen. He or she is waiting for the crowd to go away and with the crowd goes away. And I'm packing up my robes and boots and stuff. That will walk over to me and I know what's going to happen. Br JUST PLAY DUMB. Our You A. Hi Mr Davis and I really enjoyed your lecture Blah Blah Blah and. Get to the point. We look around mixture. Nobody around with an ear misses you know. My mother is in the plan or my father's the clan and I was raised that way and now. I'm here at the University of Georgia Athens or wherever I may be speaking and I'm dating this guy from Pakistan or my girlfriend's black or my boyfriend's Jewish. You know I get on my parents. They'll kill me or they'll disown me and I can't tell my friend because they'll drop me so they got the secret. That's burning on their chest and they don't know what to do with it and the heck of it somebody now. So I'm the perfect person they WANNA know how to handle this. What's what do they do? You know because see these people come from a neighborhood that is homogeneous where people pretty much they go to the same high school. They cheered the same sports team. Swim in the same Dominican Swimming Pool. They all buy their groceries at the same market or spur griffiths door what have you vote for the people. So all that is embedded there and and then when they come to college or university is not the highest group there people there from all over the country and all over the world and now they're being exposed to something that was not in the neighborhood and they're having to rationalize they were towed. Jewish people have horns. Black people have tails and they're finding out. This is not true. And what do they do it? This education you know. The parents wanted him to be educated with them to come home with a Jewish boyfriend or black for you know so they are learning exposure exposure. And when you say you could never sit down and talk one of these people. That's what we have to do. And I I'll tell you because at the end of the day we're all human beings you got something to teach them. They got to learn and we can learn from them to what is it that they fear at. Witham learn that we can address it especially if there's no reason to feel what an my favorite of all time is by Mark Twain the author. Who DID Tom Sawyer? Huck Finn and all that is called the travel quote at Mark. Twins TRAVEL IS FATAL TO PREJUDICE BIGOTRY. A narrow minded and many of our people needed sort on these accounts. Broad wholesome charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth. All one's lifestyle. That is so true I was. I was very fortunate that I had the life that I that I had my. My parents were in the. Us Foreign Service a State Department American Embassy. That's why I traveled overseas as a trial My father worked for the embassies are every two years. We in different countries. I lived in Africa for ten years. I lived in Europe I. I've visited many countries in between South America Asia etc. And so I got to see an experienced all these things and look something as you probably know in the forties and fifties a good number of black Americans. Even many famous ones like Josephine. Baker Memphis Slim Rogerson Bertha Kit They moved to France the took residency in France. Qui- because the French people treated us as equals not as second-class citizens like will be treated at our own country some Americans their US citizenship and became French citizens because of the equal treatment. So when I was overseas as a child I'm substitute Now when I was overseas as a child Starting in nineteen sixty one I was in kindergarten. And then you know every two years in back and go back and forth different countries in my elementary school overseas in different countries. My classes were filled with kids from Nigeria. Italy Germany Japan Russia. Anybody who had embassy. They're all of their kids to the same school. So I was being multicultural before that term ever existed in fact I remember multi. Cultural first came out. It was multi hyphen ultra. Now all one word but nineteen sixties. That term didn't even exist all right so if you would open the door to my classroom back then and coke your head in you would say this looks like a like a classroom of a of a United Nations kids or something because that's exactly what it was but then when I would come home to my own country right here is what Oh USA. I would either be an all black schools or black and white schools meaning the the still segregated school the all blacks will or the newly integrated school black and white because we didn't have the amount of diversity in this country that we have today back then it was just black and white kids within seal lot of Asians Hispanics a lot of east Indians etc. Which is black and white so because I had already been treated fairly and equally by white people from from my own country in the embassy overseas or by the French friends by Swedish friends by little German for CETERA. I could not understand why my own fellow Americans here who were white were treating me differently. I knew something was wrong. So that's when I when I came up with the question in hopping you hate me. You don't even know me after I had rocks at million bottles in a cub scout parade. I was only black person marching in the parade but I've come to the conclusion that our society can only become one of two things one it can become that which we sit back and let it become organ become to that which was stand up and make become so we have to ask ourselves the question. Do we want to sit back? See what actually he becomes or do we want to stand up and make it become. We WanNa see not gonNa tell you something that the media tends to shy away from but they better start talking about it because this is. What's behind a lot of the racism? That's going on today. Started a while back but I can tell you what's behind it and a fact. Check me okay because this is what I'm telling you has a lot of truth to it and you'll see what I'm talking about when I was a child. The black population in this country was twelve percents. Native Americans were one percent Hispanics between two and three percent Asians Arale four percent today. Black people remain at twelve percent. We've not run Native Americans are still still act one percent. They haven't grown either. Asians are now six percents of it ruined a little bit Hispanic. People have grown astronomically there at the to the two thousand seventeen cents to two thousand twenty. One hasn't come out yet They were at thirteen percent so they have surpassed us. Now if you take just twelve percent black well this country back then. When I was a kid was like eighty four Eighty six percent one today if you take just black people twelve percent plus thirteen percent. Hispanic right there. Not even including the native Americans are agents that right there. Twenty five percent non white. So they're seeing this happen at. This country was built on a two tier society white supremacy slavery as we progress through the years. We progress like this. We did not progress. Like this okay. We're still like this. We might be like this. But we're still down here right so when you have sat on the on the throne of power so four hundred years you don't want to get off. Nobody wants to give up their from right. If you have a hit record number one you don't WanNa see you see you see your slow down the numbers. Now you're the top would now. You're the top forty nine of the top one hundred at number ninety nine. No you want to be at number one. That's natural so the people in charge they don't want to get a the frown but as it's the the country is changing. That's why they call it. White genocide to miscegenation as why they call it all all that. I knew the KKK and Neo Nazis. And all right what they tell me as Daryl. I don't WanNa see my grandkids B. Braun. They call it the Browning of American white genocide because they're losing their their numbers and it's well predicted by twenty forty two. Which is only what twenty two years from. Now this country is GonNa be fifty fifty sixty percent white sixty percent non for the first time in US history at shortly thereafter. Guess what is GonNa Flip and whites will become the minority in this country. Globally whites are already the minority. There are more people of color globally than white people but in this country they are majority and that's about to change in the next two decades and for for many white people they embrace it. Welcome at. Hey let's rape knows. Evolution is what happened but but also many white people if it's very disconcerting it's very unsettling and they don't want to give up that power and that's why you see these groups stepping up and saying come join us in a way we're not stopping illegal immigration build. That wall will take our country back when they say illegal immigration stickler groups. They are not talking about people in Canada. What people people from UK or Eastern Europe talking specifically about people from Mexico South America West Africa? Because they don't care yet there are cutting people here right now right now who are here illegally from the UK from Canada from Eastern Europe. Now they may have come near legally with. They've outrun their visas or whatever but we're not concerned about them because if if I'm white and I'm a racist and my daughter is sung to marry one of them. That's not a problem. My Grandma's GonNa be white but if my kid marries somebody from what a Malla or El Salvador or Nigeria. Who you know so that's was happening here and that is frigging them out so these are trying to step up. Recruitment you know. Come join us when our country back? And here's what happens. These people who freaked out they remember. Remember an anti ninety nine. Everybody was freaking out about. Why why two K all that anxiety? Into the world's going to end blah blah blah well for white supremacists white nationalist white separatist. Uk is twenty forty two. That's when it's GonNa Change Right and they're frigging out now. The world's not going to end but they think it is. Their world is not in for sure so they go join these groups that promises to do all these things and who doesn't do anything so big it frustrated said you know what if the clam can't do it or the neo. Nazis can't do out do it myself and they walk into a Black Church and South Carolina. They walk into a synagogue in Pittsburgh they walk into the wall almost and also these are called Lone wolves. And I'm sorry to say this. Unfortunately we're GONNA see more and more lone wolves as we get closer and closer to twenty forty two because these people becoming unhinged they are freaking out and while we have agencies and intelligence operatives who can infiltrate these reuss join undercover if information get out in foil any kind of plots CETERA. is virtually impossible to infiltrate alone was a little one. Get into group which I'd get into one first so as we as we approached that They have become unhinged and Ms. What we need to be vigilant. We need to talk about this. We need to get to know. What another original self destruct. So I've chosen to stand up and make my country become what I wanna see and now I'm not so naive as to believe that everybody. I talked to his change now. There will be people on all sides who will go to their graves being hateful. Violent and destructive and racist here is not change in that whatsoever. It's not because they born that way but it's because I'm so happy they may have all right so you know we we have to have is. They're not they're always Killers there's always be rapes but there are those who can talk to expose them to something. Give Him an education and they can evaluate ahead. You know what I do go different way because the ones who have come out with me some of them stay under the radar. They don't want to speak out against it because they're fearful of retaliation you had to have young kids and things like that are the ones who don't have children or their kids have grown moved on some of them. Come out on the road with me tour with me. Speak OUT AGAINST THEIR FORMER ORGANIZATIONS? So as possible for people to change when seems like a massive Reinterpretation of you know the stuff that we've heard for so many years And it must be very difficult to Reinterpret such hateful words and such hateful action. I saw a documentary on Dennis. Rodman a few years ago and Dennis Rodman. I forget exactly where he grew up but the N. Word was passed around a lot amongst the African American community was kind of a normal thing but then he moved in With the through some weird set of circumstances he moved in with another family that was white and he moved to Arkansas and he still being called the N. word You know at this at this school that he went to but now it was by white people and his friends as some of the other white people were like like dude. Like aren't you GONNA do anything? And he's like about what and he's like they keep calling you the N. Word. He's like well he's like my friends back home. Used to call me that too so for him. At that point he didn't understand that it was even a derogatory term. And I've heard you speak about this before as well how it's important to not give those kind words power and sounds like to me like you have Decided to do this for the betterment of society for for your own government for the betterment of Being able to help convert people and being able to spread the knowledge But for many other people that is that is a very difficult. Very hard thing to do. So how can how can some of US reinterpret? What somebody saying whether they're calling US fat or black or whatever. They're making fun of us. For How do we have the strength and the power to how reinterpretation of what someone's trying because someone is? I mean they're specifically saying that to try to chop you down right. Well you know. First of all we have to elevate our own sense of self respect so we shouldn't be calling each in in my opinion and I don't speak for all black people. You know one of the thing one of the things you know. I hear constantly when I deal with Klansmen and Neo Nazis and stuff. They say well. You know if you're black leaders with Blah Blah Blah. I said wait a minute. You know who who might black leaders. You know I speak for myself under the people that I admire. Certainly but there is no one black. Spokesperson speaks for the entire. You know populous in the country was if I was to say you know you're white leaders. You know you would freak out so because you have a lot of differences with with certain white people who are in our We have to. We have to respect ourselves if we want anybody else to respect us and and they say to me well how come black book to use the N. Word and and and when we use it is all freaked out. Well I'd give them the example of this. I said you know if If you and your were as winds will do Get into a fight. You know your kids what have you're going to excite and and and your brother call 'cause you sob the point is moot because you both have the same mother so if he will be so here you know so nullified right so But if I were to come in and I'm fighting with you and I call you. Sob YOU'RE GONNA kick my B U t t right so if lack where some calls another black person. The N Word Disa- Kettle calling the pot. Black is a moot point but when somebody else does it has more of a stingy to it and the point is we should not be insulting one another regardless of whether the same color or not but it starts at home it starts at home so if you don't want you to watch yourself to be called the dumpy calling each other that You Remember Dick. Gregory the Bahamian and comedian activists yet. He was a different than mine. And we were on a thing when he told this The story about about my hometown Chicago. Where the the rolling stones Were coming to perform at the big Arena and of course you know all you have to do. Just sit there coming. You don't even have to advertise months in advance. You sit in the night before and line will around the block to buy tickets and back. Then you had you had to go to the mall ticket tron and by the Renault online internet download stuff so people that can't out all the way around the mall around the block and to spend the night so they'd be first in line in the morning. Those stores opened up. Go inside and by the ticket from the ticket on and this The next morning black guy old up in his car pulled up to the front of the line and he got out and what to the door to to the just the front of the line and these white guys were at the front line of sleep sleeping there all night said. Hey Hey hey you know the starts way back. There can be done in the line and they know pushed him back at. He came forward again. Strategy get to the line there and they picked him up and carry the and carried him back out to the tarmac. Where's car was at threw him on the ground? And Said you want to get in here go to the back line you in word stupid inward so do that up rushed himself off that out his car keys. That is car started the car and then he got back out and he said to those people you can call me stupid and you can call me an inward but I'm the stupid inward had to keep that door. Let you all nineteen. He got inside his car. Andrew all the way to the end of the line and opened the door on that side of the mall and all those people do in I in a word powerful man. It's a powerful. I was curious if you knew like where it originated from. Like the discrimination. Not even just for like a black person but also like the skin tone like exactly how dark the skin color is before you got on. We were talking about that like it's not so it's not enough that it's just a black man or a Mexican but like it seems like the darker skin. The more discrimination they receive. Do you know where this universal could eat much It comes from the Whitney net in Latin in Spanish black of course Negro Negro it etc And then an aberration of that word that will become derogatory. I the inward simply just met a lazy person and then it was always applied to black people in derogatory but You know black has always universally but especially in this country been associated with something negative for example. What kind of cat crosses your path is bad? Luck of black cat all right back in back in the days of Old Westerns. The bad guy war left look at the lone ranger. The Lone Ranger wore white even world white math and rode a white horse named silver right and all the dudes you shot up and arrested were dressed in black You have black magic which is evil we have white magic the wizard of Oz. The white witch of the North End end the black which was evil. Which are if you tell a lie. That's bad but if you tell a little white lie is okay when you play pool. Billiards right all the balls on the table of different colors the good ball if the cue ball the cue ball is white and the idea is to take a little white ball knock all the balls into the pocket into the pockets on the different colored balls but the one that you stay away from of all the colors is which ball the eight ball and we'll Caluzzi ball black so when someone says I'm behind the eight ball. They're in trouble. They had a bad day. The only time it's good to be black is when you're talking about money is it's better to be in the black than be in the red as someone time black the sponsors so we are subliminally conditioned from day one to associate black with negativity. People say had dark times op-ed dark times. Okay when you go to a funeral. That's that's not a happy occasion. People generally dressed in black. A wedding is new birth. No everything's great. You bride is dressed in white whether she's a virgin or not. You know. I was curious about this too You're probably the only person that has talked to that many individuals that were actively in the clan at that point And that had those beliefs so was there other than ignorance. Which we we mentioned. Is there a common through line of understanding that like you found see this as a theme while? Montauk to these people. This is a theme of belief that can help us. understand individuals that have that type of belief towards us or that yet at have like mass different beliefs. Okay so let's start by saying a clansman or plans woman or racers for that. Matter is not stamped out of a standard cookie-cutter they come from all different walks of life with all black people are alike all racist or not elect either and even even though they try to lock us on one category which is wrong. We can't lump them one year. Become the common thread is racism but they come from all different walks of life all different educational backgrounds and the third rate drought. Comes gas down the street all the way to President of the United States President? Warren g harding was sworn into the clutch plan in the brain room of the White House. President Harry Truman had joined the clan for a very short time before he became president. He didn't like it. You got done president Supreme Court Justice Hugo black with the clan when he got the appointment to be on the Supreme Court he had to drop out of the clan in order to become a justice Senator Robert Byrd just died a few years ago. He was old as living senator from West. Virginia he was a clansman back in the nineteen forties he eventually give those beliefs cetera became so all different educational backgrounds at their different reasons for joining the Klan. Like I just gave you one a minute ago with the family tradition in grandfather. Father on not Give you another couple of samples. Listen you have a depressed town but sale coal mining towel And the company. You've worked for that cold for that coal mining company for generations from your great grandfather on down. And you know as soon as you get out of high school or even quits Komo's fifteen years old. That's all you know if I were to give you a broom until you sweep floor you would not do. It is all you know how to do. Did Go. And you've been doing that you're happy you're not racist you're making your money you're paying your rent. You wouldn't sued on your family's table and things. When people are happy they they tend not to be negative for other people. Okay so the company you saw has. Hey you know what there are a bunch of immigrants here you know they come from these countries where where they make no money. You know so you know. Let's let's layoffs are workers? Hire them whether they're legal or illegal will work for that much right now. We're paying our people this much so called greed right capitalism greed. So we're going to hire these illegal Mexicans or illegal Mexicans or from South America. Whatever and given these jobs. Joe. How big goal and we just pay that much. We'll make tons of money. That happens all the time. So they lay on most of these coal miners of white. So they lay him off and And they hire these these other people so now these these people who who who don't have any other job skills they cannot not get another job of. They would never racist now. The all these bills are coming due. They can't pay their bills. The back is gonNA foreclose on their trailer or whatever place. They live in D- kids who need new clothes and the CAM. They can't even buy them by them from the wilderness heavy money so the clan will come into a town like that the world's rural towns and hold a rally and they'll say look the blacks have the N. double ACP THE JEWS HAVE AD L. Nobody stands up for the white man but the crab you come join us. We'll get your jobs back you know. Your Job's not gone. The Euro Bonn and some Dan in word or some Dan S. Word or whatever Has Your job. Why do they have your job? You've been working there since you have way granddaddy job but you've got here yesterday. You know so. These people who were never racist are listening to this thinking you know maybe maybe not appoint. Okay sign me up. And they joined that way. Or if if you move into town that is a a A clan stronghold just like if you move into a block that this gang controls you joined the gang you or of you want to stay on that block you know or you try to open up a business On a block. That's run by the Mafia. You GotTa Pay Them Protection. You know so nobody breaks into your store and hurts you or something so you move into a town you. WanNa start a business you what you need. You need to get along. The townspeople joined the local chamber of Commerce. You join the local country club. Join the local Plan so people come into so's Wade's as well now. People who have it ingrained in them from from our family is appointing the deep-rooted thing They it'd be a little harder to get through to but more so than the ones who just came into it because they moved different location or they just lost their job. You know once bill. What do you think of the situation with a AMATA arbitrary? Sure you've been made aware of that. Absolutely I you know I think Is is a very good thing. Somebody had that video. I don't know who had the video. How why or how? It was being film. But it's a good thing that came up because you know what you know we all can say probably with out any doubt if it had been resourced where there was a video of two black guys chasing the white jobber father and son it would have been a whole different story a whole different story and you know this kind of stuff needs to stop it needs to be exposed and we need to stand up and educate people. It's only on a change at people need to be punished severely punished. I think you know I think. Hate crimes against fellow man whether it's a white against black or vice versa or a against Jewish person or whatever you're committing a crime against another American after no other reason than than hating that person and to me that's with treasonous you know I think it's treason to turn against your fellow American and destroy that person so no other reason and if he's breaking into your house you can still like that as a different story but these incidents You know from A. We've been complaining about these incidents. Long before Rodney King Rodney King was perhaps one of the first videos because George holiday who was the videographer happen to have a video camera and back then. Nobody had video cameras. Tv stations because they were so expensive thousands of dollars now. Everybody's got one in the form of their cellphone. You know the word on their hip all the time. So we're seeing more and more and we're bringing truth to what we've been complaining about long before Rodney King and this has to stop. Our judicial system is broken. Now those two Prosecutors recused themselves and one of the and even a He he thought it was a little self defense or something Or to the detriment of citizens a citizens arrest those two guys. Were twice the size of this jogger. If they really thought he was a burglar one they just sat with him and restrain you know they. They could have overpowered him. And then and then I take a Msnbc went down there to the scene of the following. You know against this recently as somebody started spraying Making a semi automatic machine gun. Fives that no. Oh yeah yeah check it out. So a Martin savage the reporter from MSNBC HE and his crew went down there to block and get just a film at from the House. Where those guys lives that. Kennesaw a semiautomatic machine desire. So they've got the heck out of there. Was that all about this is. It's terrible that it happened and apologies to everyone who was affected by it. But when I see that I mean I get full of some crazy emotions Your approach to things is unlike anybody else that I've ever heard. Overseen you approach things with like the utmost empathy the most like understandable or understanding. How how can we but I mean also like how do you see something like that? And you don't like go on a tirade on social media you don't want to essentially clapback right like how can you calmly state your opinion and not be full of rage? I am full of rage. Trust me I am full of rage. May this goes on way too much? You know. And as soon as this one's over the Netherlands somewhere so I am full of rage but I direct my rage in a positive direction to try to educate and and grabs prevent the nets one man and you know and that leads me to to another thing that is controversial and again. I don't say I speak for everybody. I've been saying this now for almost twenty two years and there are people who agree with me at people who vehemently disagree. I think that we need to get rid of black history month. Then we'll tell you what sorts of all there was a time when we need it black history month because no black history was being taught in our school system What was being taught was called American history and for all practical purposes. It may it may as well have been called White History. Because that's all it was black people White getting credited with things that did not invent things they did not discover and black people would giving dismissed not even mentioned So our history. Is You know. Part of it was a lot and we wear in certain things at home that we're not talking about in school. We had to fight and fight and fight to get our history into the classroom. Only we were given one week. It was called Negro History Week and that was established by Carter G Woodson inebriated for weeks or one week a year. They were talking about black history. We fought even harder. Because that's not enough yet you know nobody's GonNa get all at one time by this dog without little by little so we fought harder and harder and finally we got a whole months. Not even a whole months twenty days right. We got the shortest month of the year. Seb ury now. That's not by coincidence. We we get thirty one day. We got twenty eight day except for once in four years. We did that extra day on leave here but we accepted February. It was all they were giving us. Clus be it was the birth months of two of our heroes. Abraham Lincoln was born in February and Frederick Douglass was born in February. So we'll take that autumn them as well then. We became complacent. We stopped fighting. And as I said we need it black history months because we had nothing at people needed to be educated. But now we're at a point where I believe that is now detrimental to our educational system to continue with black history month. Why because we are subliminally brainwashing. Little black kids little white kids and a little any near the kids into believing there is only a Hansel APPA dozen black people in this country. That ever did anything because every February the only studied the same happened dozen Black People Martin Luther King Rosa Parks. But would you Washington George Washington carver? Harriet Tubman Malcolm Mess. You know and then by the time you got to set yourself up over. We did our thing move on. And we never revisit. Those people until next February and that's February is the same black people every February. So what you're telling people is there. Were only six people in this country since In this country that ever did anything. What about what about Garrett Morgan who invented the traffic light who invented the gas mask what about Cj Walker? What about Mitt Wall or? They wouldn't have time. You only have said brewery twenty eight days okay. There are thousands of black people who have contributed to the to the building of America. Now don't get me wrong on Matt didn't anything away from those six people. I just mentioned they are some of the icons absolutely. Nothing should be taken away from them and they should always be included. But if you only include Ben you were sending a message that there was nobody else which is simply not true. And that's number one number two. We learn about white people who made history all year long Benjamin Franklin. Eli Whitney Zander. Graham Bell Thomas Edison F Scott Fitzgerald Francis Scott Key on and on and on and they are. They are reinforced all year long. We only talk about raft people in January. So if if if I would say a WHO was dying through the tight and lightning hit the key and now we have electricity. Everybody knows as Ben Franklin because we hear about all year long as a kid but you ask some little kid in June right before he graduates from sixth grade seventh grade or whatever you say in June a who was Harriet Tubman. Oh yeah yeah yeah I I remember. she was that woman bet black lady who refused to get a seat on the bus. They got confused with Rosa Parks because there is no reinforcement so we need to get rid of black history buffs take content that we had in February and put it under the umbrella of American history where it belongs and teach it all year long like anybody else and include other people. Look when I was a kid we had the Miss America pageant as we still have today. When I was a kid black women were not allowed to compete in Miss America. Why because they were told they would not announced they were ugly and the fact of the matter is the judges. Were all white males at the time today. You have women everything else but back. Then white male judges. They did not want white males. Judging on the beauty of a black woman walking across the stage all right and there were only two categories. The evening gown and swimsuit women were objectified as objects of beauty sex objects etc. They didn't have talent. They didn't need to read or prove how smart they were. All we want. Do just look at you in your evening. Gown embedding sue and vote on you all right. That was America when it started out. Now start before I was born but I I was there when it was only the swimsuit and the and the evening yellow and white male judges and so black women. What happened to them? Their self esteem went down because they did. Not You know they were told they weren't. They were ugly. We're not beautiful. You know so how do we elevate their self-esteem we'd created Miss Black America beauty badge to give Glatt winning some to aspire to? Why do we need that like a couple of years ago in Mississippi a high school in Coral Mississippi at a black and a white prom the head? What's that all about? You know so miss. America was doing the exact same thing right. We have this black America. We have Miss America so finally silently Miss America opened his came to his senses and opened his doors and now any American woman regardless of their color can compete. Missa Merrill and since that time we had several Miss America's who've been black starting with the Nestle Williams and then Debbie Turner. I can't remember the names of the others but so now that Miss America is on even ground. We don't need Miss Black America. When are we gonNA START NEEDING BLACK HISTORY? Month's President Barack Obama became the first black president of the United States. Does that mean? We can only talk about him in February. Come on let's get real. Let's take lack history and put it word belongs as American history and teach it all year long as you got closer to Like learning more and more about the Klu Klux Klan did you were you encouraged to pursue it more where you encourage to like because you learn more about it or did it get more frightening as you started to read more books and you start investigate Was there something that like lead you to believe? Hey if I go talk to these people this is a good idea or You know are you reading things about lynchings and crazy stuff like that where you're like? Oh Man I this could. This could end very badly for me. Like what was the dialogue like in your head to? I understand why you did it but How'd you have the courage to do? It sounds like it would be i. I wouldn't go to like I wouldn't be. I wouldn't want to be anywhere near those people just from my own perception of of them. I mean you know you see my name in the media. Flat Musician Converts Two hundred Blah. Nah I didn't even convert one I am the impetus for over two hundred a leading that those organizations and giving up that ideology I counted the see. They converted themselves. But my my original mission I never believe it or not. I never set out to convert anybody. I do not WanNa meet with them to try to talk them out of their beliefs. All I wanted to know was how can you hate me? Don't even know me all you see. Is this a color of my skin? And you make all these assertions about me I. I just explained to me why that's all I wanNA know you know I. I'm not here to argue with you and try to you take your robes etc. I wanted to walk so I I can understand and I I really do not think anybody was GonNa Change. Because I was under the belief that Tiger his stripes eleven genius spots. I would not go to change anybody just to try to figure out what mixed somebody sealed this way well. As as conversations continued they began seeing a humanity me and they began slowly but surely rethinking their positions and their ideology and then next thing you know they were done it happened again and again and again and so even after in of writing a book at the time know introduce people and even after my book was was done an out a publish. I continued it because people were leaving so these conversations. I thought Dan maybe I need to keep doing this. So that's why I continue it today. No the book came out Nike Ninety Seven. I'm working on my second one now but even even then I mean now. We're in two thousand twenty. I've still doing you know along those lines as you were doing this with all of these people you were never trying to trying to shut them up. You never trying to Like I guess you were disputing what they're saying. But you aren't cancelling them nowadays. How do you feel about how things are now? Where if someone says something kind of you know? It's kind of odd or actually some people say things that are blatantly racist immediately like media platforms will cancel them. They'll shut them up etc And kind of I guess negate their ability to say those things I feel like if someone is open about. That conversation needs to be hats. Let them know that they're wrong but they should still have the ability to say whatever it is. Even though it's it could be racist. I feel like nowadays. Those things people are too scared of letting those things out. So instead they'll they'll they'll find groups where they can do these types of things in secret without so that other people don't know and in essence it's kind of like a worse way to go about it. Yes you absolutely. You're spot on one hundred percent. You know everybody. I don't care who you are. We all want to be heard all want. We have voice therefore we wanNA use everyone speaking. WanNa be heard and you know when you when you shut somebody up. Try to shut them down. Then you question them into that corner where where they're gonNA explode or they're going to go seek out you know people where where they're where they can have a platform and the next thing. You know that that's going to grown grown grow and the you have this. This group has gained as coalition. Whatever that's going to exclude and The that's a bad thing Even I mean if the hate speech in his speech events at that as the line is a little grey but we have to let people speak we have to. We have to listen to them or we can choose not to listen to them but we have to allow him to speak. If we want our voices to be heard and conversations is the only way you gotta change somebody you know like for example if The you you made you made a statement at the at the beginning of Of the program that fact the first statement you made was you could not and never would sit down and talk to one of these people so if I were to figure okay well you know you talk money's people. I'm not gonNA beat the daylights out of you. Continue Talk One of these people. That's not GonNa make you talk to them. But I might have a chance if I converse with you. I may be able to plant some seeds that might persuade you or at least get you thinking. Well you know maybe I can have a conversation about it. You know but if I'm if I'm beating on you all I'm doing is driving away and reinforcing which you already know that you don't want to do it you speed. So that's that's part of the problem. We cannot beat the Nazi out of Nazi. Just that simple. I mean it may feel good to go punch of Nazi in the face or something. But it's not gonNA change in one of the things I love about. You know what you're doing is in an Andrew. Pointed out is that you're not allowing your feelings to take over so you have these feelings. You're like this pisses me off as much as the next person but you're trying to find solutions to it and in European. The solution is to educate if people know more as they got closer to you. I've heard you Have statements before were you said you know some of the things you've heard about? African Americans are they have smaller brains. They are not as smart and things of that nature and once you start to communicate with these people they're like Oh my God like he's really eloquent. you're a an amazing musician? You have all these all these talents and all these skills and you're really Kind of like Eminem does and in his movie eight mile. You're taking everything they ever thought of you and you're pulling it all away. You're pulling all of that away from them so they no longer have it as armor and then plus on top of that to start things out. You're really listening to them. You're listening to the things that they don't understand your and then I would imagine from there. It's probably a process of you. tryin untangle. Maybe some of the thoughts that they've had and how do you kind of manage that part of it? Is that because you know. I can't see win when they see me. They see the enemy. You know. I'm a black person. They have their ideology their wallets up. They're ready to fight the ability to defend quite patriotism. And whatever else you know on all right. I know I'm there to attack. Them is up against them. That's their mentality. But when I come and I'm just chilled. I'm listening to them and allowed them to say whatever they WANNA say. My buttons are not getting pushed etcetera. They get thrown off their game and they had to go home and think about that. Oh you down. That guy's speaks the same language I speak you know. He didn't get up out of shape he listened. He wants the same things for his family that I want the mindset in Oh and and they keep seeing this over and over again but I always make sure that I you know I had them in my relying bike. The border the house. Whatever all right. We'll talk and once I trust them. You know that you know not gonNA blow up my house or shoot near whatever I will invite over some of my friends some of my black friends and my Jewish friends. Some of my wife friends you know. So they can engage in conversation with them as well gives. It's very important that they don't could because if you don't do that they will thank you know Darryl ty- exception is the other black people. You know you don't want that to happen. You don't want that to every Every white persons like my doctors black or my why they display raised. I Live I listen to black music. Like right yeah so you I make sure you know that I suppose to other people who are who who disagree with them and and who you know have the same attributes that they want the same things as a that way you. I'm not saying you're wrong this. I'm letting him see this. And they the home omits figure that out themselves reevaluate. I give it up examples when I first interviewed The first for the book. He came in with his arm bodyguard into the hotel. Room and You Know He. He's the one who I You know you know you don't even know me interviewed a clans Like leader right. Yeah Athlete and at that time. This book called the Bell Curve. Come Out Racist Book that that Moore said Black people do not have the Iq that while people all CETERA. So anyway he wouldn't know he hadn't read the book but he'd heard that that's all he needed to do to build a case right and anyway he said that the black people had smaller brains in white veal before their capacity for IQ was less Brat people are lazy. We don't WANNA work We prefer scam. The government welfare system and and black people are more prone to crime than White People. That's the reason why lacks there? More blacks and Griffin so mean that obviously they must be be more black criminals and doesn't seem people to enslave right people that are lazy right at what she's not considering. The you know the inequity of the judicial system which is why you know there are a lot more in in prison than than the tricky but You're you're on. He has to see the result and that he can. He can write his own narrative about so even though he's he's sitting right across the table from me at saying all these things about me. I did not react negatively to a and that freaked out. 'cause he's so used to fighting with black people on on those points and I'm just sitting here listening to him and at the end I pointed out. Well you know Mr Kelly I have never been in. I don't have a criminal record I have never been on welfare and never measured my brain. But I'm sure it's the same as everybody else's and I knew that I had more education than he and his bodyguard put together. So what do I have to prove? And then now with was sitting across from me he was in a suit and tie and it had a little taste little suitcase with them which was sitting on the bed in the Motel and somebody told me I sensed it swing told me that his robinhood were in that that case and so at the end of the interview I asked him. I said you have your robinhood with you. Said yes you know. He pointed to the case as a would you mind could on for me. Pitcher My book is it okay so afternoon table. He pops open his suitcase. Cools out the robe and hood kicks off his suit. Jacket puts on the robe and hood walks over to the dresser. Where the Maria's? He's standing in the Mirror. You know fixing himself his bodyguards fixing his adjusting the sewage. And all that and I'm sitting at the table you know looking at it. And now I've seen clansman and clan women marched up and down the street in a in a clan. You know a march but I've never seen I never had one put on their road right in front of my face. It you know with you. Know less than five feet away in a room It's very hard for me to describe to you what I was feeling but I was feeling all kinds of feelings. All what's I felt very angry. I felt very sad. I felt very bitter. And I'm ashamed to say it. I felt very violent. I knew I could jump across that table. And take that die down for all the atrocities that people like him wearing Rosenberg just like had done to my ancestors and other members of my ethnicity color of my skin because of that Robin Hood and I had to remind myself der will will will will. Gondolas settled down you number one. You invited him here. It didn't have to come but he came. He gave you the interview. You ask them to come on his Robin Hood. He complied with your wishes. So what are you GONNA do? Are you going to ask somebody to do something for you? And then they oblige you beat them up for now do that a stupid you know so and then I said to myself what he is exact same person who forty five seconds earlier with sitting across from me in a suit and tie and he was saying I had a small brain. I'm on welfare and I'm a criminal. Why am I slap him then? Now he puts on the Robin Hood slapping. He's the same person. The Robin Hood is nothing. More than a piece of material it means nothing. There are people in suits and ties. Who feel the same way? There are people in uniform for badge and gun. Feel the same way. There are judges in black robes. Who feel the same way? There are doctors who feel the same way. So don't let the material throw you. The material is not the material that the guerrillas made out of is not empowered with any type of super power. Imagine what we have to consider is not with. Somebody is wearing longer body with what is here. And what is here in other words what they feel in their heart and would they think in their mind that we need to focus on not a stupid robinhood. Because I tell you what I would rather see somebody coming up the sidewalk towards me in a Roman hood and know where they're coming from than somebody in a suit and tie or police office uniform at thick. I know where they're coming from and they stab me in the bat days. So we know the robinhood. Stand for an adjacent. When I got my first robinhood I'd have a bunch of the now when I got my first one. I didn't know what to do with it. I never had a row with before you know so I brought it home and I kept looking at it and you know and they feel very powerful in the road. But it's almost like a A Clark Kent Superman thing you know the Meek Mile Reporter Daily PLANET AS LITTLE SUIT. And then he puts on gets. Sutin Superman that kind of thing. You actually see that. And so I took that Robin Hood and guess what I did with. I put it on. Yes I did. I put on the Robin Hood and I stood in front of my mirror to see what I look. I look stupid. You want transparency being honest d. Do you Do you think maybe the only interaction that some of these people may have had previously with people of other ethnicity is maybe just kind of like rallies and protests Place places that they may go And they don't really or they may have like hate crimes against other ethnicities But they don't really like they probably haven't communicated or talk to someone right. They haven't had conversation right. Exactly no understand I mean yes. In some cases they've never had a conversation with somebody and other cases yes they are aware like for example the leader who came from one of just telling you about He works or at the top. He worked with black people up. Because you know you have to have a job you figure bills but working with them as one say but he hasn't been out an go to happy hour with them. After work he goes about his business. He has to do certain things in order to draw paycheck so crotchet as black is on the project rhythm so be it. He does his job. I do my job. We get it done. We get our Beijing. And then we do I separate ways or I go to happy hour little lunch with one of my coworkers and allies. You'd see in a metropolitan metropolitan cities. Let's say Chicago right near Washington. Dc Baltimore you have a company. We have different workers and they're upstairs working on a project. They might even share the same cubicle. But what happens at twelve noon? It go downstairs to the cafeteria. At blacks it look flats whites with wireless Bassett with Spanish. Does that mean that they're racist not necessarily Sometimes yes but not necessarily people tend to self segregate because they feel more comfortable around people with whom they share a language a culture or or look now if it gets too too much like. I don't want that person sitting at my table. Did we have one of the best things that happened in my family when I was really young? You know I'm not proud to say I've had many family members Say Racist Things You know at dinner tables and parties and things like that and You know not not was not joking. You know it was like no. These are derogatory terms that are in my opinion or gross but when I was young I just didn't I didn't know any of it meant but I think I was probably about twelve or thirteen years old and my aunt came home She Met Somebody that she fell in love with and he happened to be African American. And so that was That was a really interesting thing for my family to Be a part of because I think at that time that many of my family members had any association had hardly any affiliation or our new any people that were black you know they would just use the N. word and they would just say here and there where my family grew up in. New York is Kind of near New York City and About forty five minutes outside of new city and it's very segregated. The white people live over here. The black people live over here and when when I was young when I was a kid. you know. I I was born in nineteen seventy six when I was a kid Even then even the eighties like the white people did not go into the black area and the black people did not go into the white area. It was very rare as you're talking about you're pointing out. They might work together here and there and there might be some circumstances But the whites thought what they thought about the black people that black people thought what they thought about the white people but once my aunt Ended up eventually marrying this man. You know I remember it was like it was a thing with Mike. My grandpa you know he get over it but they became best friends. They hung out all the time. My grandpa loved the smoke cigars and so This man came into our life and he forever changed the kind of the dialogue of of a lot of my family members. And I think it was important for me to see that as a young man to hear some because I could have gone the other way right like if this never happens. Believed some of the things that they believed in and luckily luckily it never turned into that for me. There's there's a taste for exposure exposure in education. You know The that black to not come in to your aunts lies and and beaten the racism out of your grandpa that never would have worked. I remember a time too and my aunt she came into town and where. I live in In California there's not many African Americans but I remember. His name is bill and bill and My Aunt Susan They came to visit me and bill brought like probably about twenty of his friends. What foot probably looked Which probably looked pretty funny. I was walking down all walking down the street together in Davis California where as I mentioned it mainly Mainly Caucasian and Asian. Ya Been Davis California. You know Sir. I'm really curious about your thoughts on this. Because me and my friends we have discussions like the Salat and some of them When like have had very bad interact at interactions. Why people were like the like racist things. Were literally set. And from that. From those instances they come to. The point of the comes the conclusion. Like yo I fucking hate white people. I hate these white people and they in some of their statements. It's sounds what it sounds kind of racist NAM. Curious do you. Some people believe that People of Color can't be racist because they're not in positions of power. But do you think that that's relevant? It doesn't seem like I mean if you are a person of color in you hate someone because of yet. They may people in their of like of the race. Mistreated you but if you hate the group because of that isn't that inherently also racism is it is in my opinion yes The I I've heard that before too that Usually black people saying it that we can't be racist And you know yes. We can You know if if somebody has done something to me as certainly there have been white people who've done things to me No question about it And sometimes what they did was indeed racist. May may have ended up in a fistfight or something I may dislike that individual. But I'm not going to dislike everybody. That looks like him. If I did and I would be racist absolutely Yes Black. People can't be racist anybody can races and and. I hear a lot about you know with reverse discrimination reverse racism by the boss well reverse racism Is there is an equal reaction to every every action fits every action able reaction? Nothing can be put into reverse unless it those forward I the otherwise what would be reversed right. You must have forward in order to have reverse so the forward was the racism reverse was the reaction alright and reverse racism just as bad as racism in a we can't. We can't fight racism with races. We have we know we have to educate people and and we have to gain allies. Just like I tell you over. Obama was not good in the White House by black people. White people good Obama in the White House. That's a fact okay. How is that because the black population of this country is only twelve percent and not all twelve percent of black people? Are Eligible to vote. Some of them are children. Some of them are felons okay. So the percentage of black voters who are registered some of us are eligible to vote who never registered aright is less than twelve percents so even if every black person in this country including babies underdogs sorted for Obama. That would not have been enough to put him in the White House. It took a lot of the white vote to add to that to put him in the White House. Twenty years ago the white mentality overall. You know I don't want paint with a broad brush. The majority with not ready to put a black man in the White House. Yes they were. Black people were qualified. Twenty year developed. There were black aboard qualified years ago. But the mentality was not ready by two thousand eight. There were those who are willing to chance. Yeah you know what he's saying since. Yeah Yeah you've got my boat. We needed bat number to put them in the White House. How did they arise from all that? Racism come slavery all the way the two thousand eight at and that change of attitude to where they were ready to entrust their lives and their country to a black man because by that time there were enough of them who had come to know. They've been exposed. They had gone to schools. Integration had worked. They were working with them on the jobs that were getting to know them. They were dating them. They were out having lunch with them. Whatever that exposure that education if were prepared them so yes sitting down and talking with people data per station and work just like his grandfather just like the people that I talk to the the most vehemently racist people I mean somebody who was so racist they would go and join an organization that practices racism. There's not enough to sit at your house and gus reputable on you know you. WanNa go join an organization. Get the road new. All kinds of stuff out has music Help transcend race for you. Commute news is universal. Even plan people like music be honest. Okay so you know people say Savage savage beasts yes it does but not let me give you an example okay. Today is Friday. So let's say I want to go out dancing tonight so I know this club down the street you has A. Dj has a live band. I can dance. So go down there and Display in the Danforth fool at a song is playing. You know that I like when I WANNA DANCE. So I do. Is I look around the club to see if I see. A single lady was not attached to some guy or something right after this lady she said at the Bar and she's tapping her hand on a on on top of the bar in the music so obviously she likes that song to her. I'M GONNA walk over to her and said Hey. Use me like to dance? She says in the song so she comes off Barstool her she and dancefloor floor. If it's a slow song we'll wrap around each other and with turning slowly around the most lower which was the fat song no were shaken apart from each other. Whatever right I didn't even know this woman at the end of the song being the gentleman that's supposed to be. I'm going to escort her back to her barstool. And I'M GONNA say my name Darrow Davis. She says my name is Sally Smith. And she says you know. So what do you do salary? And she tells me she's the the VP for the East Coast Division the Microsoft or something flow. You know she's making half a million dollars a year stopped. She says to me you. What do you do Daryl and I I? I'm a cashier but Donald you know I'm making let nine thousand dollars a year. So we're we're two people that I I. It's on the spectrum. Come back close that. We're like this news. It brought together and it was music that brought me together with the first clansman. That was friendly towards me. The very first Lensman I met I beat him up. I didn't know I didn't clansman but I thought I beat the daylights out of him Besse. Isn't that the story? But anyway I was playing in the saw in this club and I just recently joined a country. Western band was half country half bluegrass and country. Music had made a resurgence. There had back in the eighties. There have been a movie out called Urban Cowboy John Travolta and it had a mechanical bull. All these line dances and stuff so just about every club and bar went from top forty to country overnight and so if you want to make a living playing music which I you know I wanted to do. I joined the country band and I like country. Music was very easy to play. Same records as the balloons so I luckily country and everybody in the band was white for me. And this bar was quote a silver dollar lounge up in Frederick Maryland about forty miles outside of Washington. Dc and it was a truck stop. He throws a little bit and we'll get back in. The bottom of the Motel was silver dollar lounge and it was known as an all white lounge not meeting. That black people could not go in but That black people were not welcome there and you know black. People did not the window than us that so for the most part was in the silver dollar lounge and We just finished playing the first set of music. We'll take a break and I'm walking to go. Sit Down with my bandmates. When I thought somebody from behind their arm around my shoulder and I didn't know anybody in there I turn around Cedras touching me white gentleman maybe fifteen eighteen years older than me and he says. Hey I'm sure like your music. I said thank you and I shook his hand and he said and he points at the stage and said I've seen this year bamboo sword. But I ain't never seen you before. Where'd you come from and I explained? I just joined the band a couple months ago. You know yeah you probably did see them because they'd been here before it's my first time. He goes man. I show like European. No plan is the first time I've ever heard a black man piano like Jerry. Lewis and I was not offended by his statement but I was rather surprised that this guy who was older than me. Who WOULD PROBABLY GROW UP WITH JERRY? Lee Lewis not not not physically but with in jubilees Edey Did Not know the origin of Jodi Lewis News which is black blues and Boogie. Woogie that's where rock and roll rockabilly. You know came from and I I still whether you think Jerry Lewis. Learn how to play just curious and he goes. I generally admitted that and I said now man you better the saint but his I did a black blues and Boogie. Woogie never heard no black NIP. It you know that you taught that you'll get with. This dude has never heard little Richard or fats domino on those so I explained to the jury. Lewis is a good friend of by which he is and he has told me himself where you don't have to play. I told a Diet that I knew Jerry Lee Way Julie. Learn how to play the guys not by. He thought I was allied him but he was curious about me. He never seen. I was a novelty so he want to have a drink with me. I don't drink alcohol but I went back to his table. I had a grand breaches. And he took his glass of cheers my glass and he says you know. This is the first time I've ever sat down. Had A drink with a black man and now I'm curious because you know in my twenty five years on the face of this Earth at that time was twenty five years old. I had sat down with literally thousands of white people or anybody else and had a beverage a meal. A conversation and this guy was probably eighteen. Fifteen years older than me. He'd never sat down the black guy before I mean how. How is that so I asked Bought a hit an answer me. At first I after mcgann. He stared at EPA table. Top and his buddy sitting next to him elbowed him out as a telling me and he looked at me just straight up plain as day and he said. I'm a member of the coupe span. I worked out laughing because I could not believe. I knew a lot about the plan at that point and I knew clansman distant talk and put their arm around the black guy. A PHRASE THEM PRAISES PIANO PLAYER. WanNa hang out by. The drain is like that. So I said okay. This guy's expense joking Julie Louis Joke Neva. Plant John Laffin. He goes inside his pocket At Hands Me. His plan membership art. I took look at. Ooh I recognize to land insignia with a red circle with a white cross at a red blood drop in the center of the Cross. This is for real. I stopped laughing. I'd give it back to him. And we talked about the clan and some other things. He gave me his phone number and wanted me to call him. Whenever I was to return to. This bar is bad because he wants to to bring his friends leading his clansmen. Glands women friends to see this black guy play piano like Jerry Lee Lewis now. I'm not sure he called me a black actor with friends. But that's what that's what he wants to do so I would call him. Every six weeks on on a Wednesday or Thursday is man you know. Be at the silver dollar Friday and Saturday. Come on out. She come both nights and he brain clansman plans and on the brakes Good his tables. Hello I would meet some of these klansmen implants women. No there were those who did not want to meet me and when they will see me coming would get up in story away to the bathroom. You know. So it's like you know we want to look at. You know we are talk to you which is fine. You know of this juries. You WanNa talk to me. I'M GONNA sit down and that's how it got started and then I I wasn't really realized what was happening. At the time I was just being friendly and then it dawned on me some time later after I put that I abandoned blonde back to play rock and roll and blues arm. Being Russell's going on the following year it dawned on me. Daryl Ho Whoa. You know the answer to your question that you've had been plaguing you since age ten. How can you hate me? You don't even know me the answer fell into your lap. Because I've been looking for that answer I'd never found it for the answer into my lap. Who Better to ask then? Someone would go so far as to join an organization who hates people who who don't look like them who don't believe they believes that person or those people would know the answer to my question why we hate you when we don't even know you so. I had to get a hold of that guy and I have. I have in my basement right now. I've been collecting since I was a kid. Every book written on the plan and I read them all. I vote on black supremacy white supremacy antisemitism Adolf Hitler Nazism you name. It is trying to understand that mentality. None of those folks answered my questions at all. The books written on the Clinton were written by white authors except for two books one written by black authors. But they were not about the clan specifically each author detailed how he escaped lynching one in the nineteen thirties and one of the nineteen fours but not from the perspective of sitting down face to face questioning. There would be ventures. That's what I want to do. I wanted to have the same experience as white journalist as sit down face to face with somebody who will clinching. Just go back and say why. Why would you mentioned? Tell me to my face so I figured I you know I'M GONNA call. I'm going to call guy up and get it. Hooked me up with with the with the leaders of the clan. And we'll start here in Maryland where I live book. North Down South in the Midwest for the West an interview Different clan leaders and members and get the answer my question and a book. Then my book will be the first book written on grouplets plan by a black author from the perspective of sitting down faced defense and having an interview not having to run and hide from religion. Does bolster importance will so You know I had seen the guys with the band. Dig Out his phone number from somewhere. I called the number been disconnected. It took me a couple of weeks to track down and turned out that he had moved He didn't have a phone but I got an address on them so there was no way for me to alert him that I was coming over and so I went to his his apartment one evening. Knock on the door hadn't seen as data while rights dude opens the door and sees me you know. What are you doing here? And he steps out into the hallway. He looks up and down the hallway to see if I brought me by with me. Well when he stepped out of his apartment I stepped in so he comes back in one on supplant. What's going on? I'll say yep so clan as I need to talk to you he says the Clem gang member right and goes while I was here since quick decline and he gave me some long dissertation as to why he quit. I later found out some about that. But anyway He US oh. So where's where's your plan stuff and he says you my robe and Hood. I said Yeah. Those came dotted as it came and got me. Don't you own your Robin Hood explained in which I later thought it be true when you joined the clan? If you can afford it you can pay outright? And you own your Robin Hood and all the other stuff. That goes along with membership. If you cannot afford it you can still take. It is yours but you add extra money. They reduce period. Until you pay it off okay so it was like on layaway at home and so apparently he had not paid off his robe and hood so they can. Repoed it right. So so so. He said he said that when they came to get it He had been unable to find the mass that attached to the good. Cover the face but you could sense founded and he had to return it. I said let me see it. So he went down the hall to his bedroom and he returned and he handed me this mass. I'm holding it looking at it and I said you know Roger. Jelly Ido Roger. Roger was my Grand Dragon so now let me give you the hierarchy of the first of all today. There is no such thing ads. Let's plan and why not many Why is that? Has it been dissolved or something? I don't know if been Splintered dissolve splintered so back in the day. When it was its form there was one who quits plan and chapters of Bet Ku Klux Klan. Today it has disintegrated into multiple chapters. But they're all our CONNEL'S. There's no one at orders. Each one is black. Lives matter if no one headquarters. They're all the different groups. That are not connected. Okay so VESTA through butts plan they they all use the same colors on their robes that designate. There right the use the same secret handshake. The same password same titles faithful. Zane bylaws and the same name Hookah Plan. But they are a Thomas you might have the White Knights Slam the confederate night Super Fan. The dixie nights to plan the rebel nights on not these are all separate planned routes and if you see them together in public they will hold a united front but behind closed doors. They are rivals with each other. They hate each other. Each one thinks. We're the real deal one of the plant a lot of rivalry so anyway If you if you have a chapter of your particular clan group in your state and in another state or multiple states you may then consider yourself to be a national claim room at national plan route. You must have a national leader so like you know who oversees all the states in which you have an affiliation so we call our national leader. The president in clan terminology that individual is known as the imperial wizard the oversees all sticks which there is a plan jacker Baptist clan route so each state must have leader. We call our state leaders with Governor. They call the Grand Dragon so grand dragons report to their interior wizard within the state you have counties. The county leader is Is known as the as the Great Titan anybody on the great level is county officer anybody on the ground level state officer anybody on the imperial level is a national officer within the county you have district a district leader which we would call a mayor. Councilman Alderman Bekker's and is known as the result that cyclops and Then below that use at rank and file regular plan plan numbers assigned. Why is there a? Where did they get? Is there a root for all of this like surveys? I'll tell you okay now. Let's make sure that we don't paint with a broad brush. The original Quin Kooks was was formed in eighteen sixty five at the end of the civil war by sits confederate soldiers. Now they were of Irish. Scottish descent would just wear the masons came from laser beams and the masons have a lot of crazy. Grand Poobah type names so what they did was. They borrowed or appropriated things like that because they wanted a secret organization themselves so now. That's not to say that all masons are clansman. No they're not. Okay yes arsov. Yes but no. That's that's not with amazing about all right but the clan of procreates things in different places so they took that idea and began calling people grand exalted on so imperial. And all that stuff. So that's where that came from the word. Ku Klux Klan comes from a two way regions In Greek the word Coup Close K. U. L. O. S. who close means circle on clan C. L. A. N. Is the Irish Scottish word for like a family like I will be the Davis clan. You know or the bell clan remark. Dow's right so would they did. Because they were of Scottish descent. They had a lot of clans coup. Close Circle Evan Plan. They took the sea in clan and change it to a K. uniformity HOOPLA's plan. They couldn't spell reef so they change the Tail O. S. T. L. You so it means circle of family circle of close friends who wow. That's I'm really curious about this kind of ties. Into what mark asked you before if you were like scared or whatever but I've seen pictures of you at Klan rallies were. They're burning across at times. I've been pulled over. I was of scared then. I was being very careful but you are at Klan rallies. Were you not in fear of like someone because I mean you're you're around so many individuals probably some of them own guns or may brought guns outright man just chilling like what was going through your mind in those situations because you've been multiple Klan Rallies. Right plenty of them. You want to go to one. I'll take you to win one. I'm I'm serious really. Yeah I look it up for you I would actually. Yeah that'd be all right I I will get back Maybe in the fall okay. This coronas stuff is over a. I was invited to one now. I WANNA bring some friends of mine. I'm serious too by the way like I believe you. I believe okay so no I was not afraid. I'll tell you why Now the two kinds of rallies they're public rallies and their private values and I've been to boats A public rally is when the clan you know goes and gets a permit to have a rally in the park down the street. You know you have to go to the city and get a permit to use their park right and and if it's it's a public park so you can do. I can build whoever now of course if there's a lot of tension you know the police are going to keep the opposing parties away from each other if there's some rural town You know then. There's probably no problem. You know they might be white people who don't like the plan you know who who might be try to talk them down or something or black protests in. But it's not like I knew city where they'll be sixty thousand people protests in plans men so inclusive Have a barricade. Keep you aware submitted. Some of those at of course at those kind of things you know. Tensions are high Protesters come with baseball. Bats Brits chains and they'll they're ready to fight in the street with the with the white supremacist at the private rallies. You have to be invited by the Grand Dragon or the imperial wizard all right and if you guest of their you know that there will be some people who are not like you but they have to abide. It's like a chain of command. The general tells you you know to tell the sergeant lieutenant and captain whatever disguise. Okay we got what the sergeant chapter may think guys okay. You don't mess so I've been invited on underwrite property. Yes they they will respect me. Wow Are you still are? You still playing You still are you still a musician. These days I know that not these days a lot to in my house but But yes I am. I'm still musician. I left Trust me I love to play. I rather be onstage. Plants in rock and ROLL BE AT SOME KLAN. Rally with Burning Cross and hearing all these white supremacists Fiji's okay. You know new. Music is my love but but this is necessary. It really is because you know. I don't WANNA see this country. Lowdown the tubes and and that's where it's headed but we've got too many good people here Who who who? Who Need to come together coalesce and and take care of this problem and we. Can you know we are very resilient country? But we've been more reactive than we've been proactive. And that's the problem. Some of your favorite music. The time I get paid glitch. Well I'll tell you rock and roll. Now let's talk about music for Second Nutmeg. Touch my heart You know a lot of people under credit rotten roll don't iraq-related creditor all to what it has done to improve race relations in this country. You something back in the day Just like you've had segregated. Water fountains and bathrooms and know things like that music halls news at venues concert benches if they allowed black people in at all but some said No. No no lesson here. those that allow black people at all were still segregated. There were roques. Going around the seating sections with signs hanging off say seating for white aprons only covered seating over. So you could not cross it you know if you cross that was against the law you get arrested and go to jail so blacks that was blast lifeset with whites and that was prevalent through. Jim Crow etc. That law wanted to go see Frank Sinatra or the door sees or limited bad. Whoever you sat in your seating section as decimated by the color of your skin upgrades. He is that with that. Was this country that that law was still at the law on the bus. You had to sit in the bathroom. The bus or you get arrested was law stupid law but anyway That law was still in effect in the nineteen fifties but two phenomenons happened. One was the invention of rock and roll by black artists. Like Chuck Berry my boss. I played with Chuck. Berry the thirty two years. Chuck Berry Little Richard Bo. Diddley fats domino. Okay these are the guys who incented rock and roll. It was popularized by great white artists. Like Jerry Lee Lewis Elvis Presley Bill Haley and the comets Buddy Hobby Carl Perkins and others. And that's that's the that's the first phenomenon that happened The second phenomenon happen was this for the first time in the history of this country when this new music kept artists came out and began claimed this new music on stage the beat the beat was very infectious. It caused white kids and black kids to jump out of their seats and knock over these ropes and signs and then began dancing in the aisles. Together for the first time the history of this country let the white kids were dancing together. I see these are kids that wanted this. Rock and roll stuff's all right because rock and roll was was was black music. They were not hearing that in their house with their parents they were hearing Sinatra Rosemary. Clooney Easy LISTENING SMOOTH. Silky Black Music like Nat King Cole. And all that kind of stuff. You know smooths stuff and not this raucous. You know centralized energy So these kids were dancing with each other. That was forbidden. That was illegal. The police would come in at pool. The floods shut it down right in the middle of a concert done and they will even find the promoters promoters in jail for allowing Miscegenation Race Mixing. Okay so a lot of rock and roll concerts. Were getting banned in this country. Not just down south but even north because it was causing race mitts. So now these. These leaves Black Pioneers these White Pioneers of rock and roll. They are just as much responsible for civil rights because while black dotes at the adults like Martin Luther King Rosa Parks and many other black and white activists were working very hard through. Marches PROTESTS DEMONSTRATIONS. Sit Ins To grain quite adults and black votes together these rock and roll artists. Were cheating that by bringing white kids and black kids together with their music in fact You know the you know the term cover song the band and you say what you originally pay covers. The you know the the origin of that term cover the origin of the term cover songs a cover record when a white artists covered a blast song because white kids with gravitating towards black music and the white right-wing companies in back. So would they began doing was cooking out quite artists to cover those solves at play them and they will put the money pushing that boom singing. Baba Luba bamboo to trudy all right instead a little Richard White kids back and ultimately the white artists would sell more records in the black artists but the white kids still wanted to hear the original one that way and that has gone constantly. Even today we see that you know when you think of Of of heavy metal hard rock distorted guitars. All now you envision some white guy with long blond hair and spandex pants and the distorted guitar death the image that we have heavy metal hard rock. He didn't start it let's try Jimi Hendrix Yeah Hendrix did it Jimi Hendrix was blacked okay. I'm sure I'm sure Elvis wasn't the first person to shake hips. Either and I loved Elvis. Okay I love Elvis. But no he was not the first King of glues you to give it to Eric Clapton's DB respond etcetera etcetera these guys assimilated with. They heard from muddy waters from BB canes from Robert Johnson Allen Wolves. You know So every time we we had former music and not faulting anybody. I fought the people who do not give credit where credit is due. Music is to be shared by everybody. Regardless of who are you are what religion you are should everybody should cut it and share it but if you might have been something by somebody else give credit all right. So we created a blues. We created Rockin roll. We created jazz And then the the king of Jazz became Benny Goodman all right. What about Mr Elton? John and Mr Basie didn't get the title of King. Got The title of Duke and count which is lower ten all right White people the establishment the parents hated Elvis Presley. The accused him of dancing like a black person and singing that black music let inward music. And that's what he was doing. Yeah with my kids. Loved it all right but then but then when they saw how much money Elvis could generate all of a sudden they loved them and they acquitted him. King of rock and roll. So that's like you know a lot of hypocrisy going on there. All right So we moved off from rock and roll. We created so music because we will not get in the airplane that why could would getting playing rock and roll. We created soul white kids resonated there and then they put out a rare earth. Get ready was here. I come and all that and a lot of white white kids began so which was fine but credit was not being given and money was not being being allotted to push the original we left so we created disco of the very first disco song was was a song called the hustle by Van McCoy. Do lots of it right. Yeah Okay Black. People were doing that in in in the hood for for a couple of years. White Kids Hubbard about it. They began doing it. And then a movie was made called Saturday night. Fever again with John Travolta Right. Every club in the country became a disco and district became just go became white. You there yet. We're still here. We're still here. I lost video. Well off lost my video of you. Bet Did you hear me. That's yeah we got Jimbo. Discipline became you know. There was only in the movie Saturday night fever at one black person that was Donna summer. God Oh no no. I'll try to reach out to much fun. We leave there. You go out Yes sir. Okay all right so yeah so know. Cover bands were getting all the play and the blackhawks were sailing And so but but white kids was still gravitating towards the original. And so we would leave this genre of rock and roll creates Earth Envir- arguments onto debit etc. And then we'll start doing that. The record companies will put out to average white band While Cherry fucking US if white boy and all that kind of stuff right And then we go we. We left fund. Eventually we created a rack started with With three three big black guys with gold chains down their next standing on the corner called Run DMC okay. And they were doing this for a while and will white kids started digging them. Companies put out three white guys with though chains called them. The beastie boys just took off like a rocket again today today that the the highest paid and most successful rap artists of all time is a guy named him and then you know we put out ice tea. They put out vanilla ice. So I'm not faulting musicians if you like. Music is great new to do it. But give credit where credit is due if you go to any major record company Warner brothers Sony. Whatever aren't right you know. They have a country -ception have a pop section etc and they have what they call the urban music section which is just code word for black and the budget for urban is a lot smaller in the budgets are all the other John Lewis. Who's your favorite and why I'm trying to pin you down now there. So he was he was your mentor as well right now with my mentor. My friend my hero in I love Elvis Presley as well Jeremy Literature all the pioneers I love the blues. I learned how to play piano either degree in news weekdays from Howard University Washington. Dc's and you know. I make a living jazz mostly rock and roll country and Blues. One makes Chuck Berry special you other than the fact that he was your mentor. Like what what kind of cements him in your head has has one of the best a lot of things number one. Jerry was a genus. I don't say that simply because I played with him is it is true anybody can say. I play the guitar. I wrote a song. Here's my song and somebody sign my song. Very few people say I invented genre of music. Beethoven could say that Jimmy Hinson Chuck Berry and say off Chuck Berry Rock and roll with no roll before well so You know everybody came after him. Please these Chuck Berry licks. That had that on that. I think it's an extraordinary talent when you're able to Mary different Different types of art together. Like that's the best. That's the best of the best deal is. They're able to pull from this era poll from that era and then kind of make it uniquely their own. It's it's a beautiful thing to see. Indeed indeed you know and I love. I learn play outside of school from Johnny Johnson areas. Dan Layer Pine top Perkins one of the greatest blues and Boogie. Woogie ever who insolence everybody anybody somebody waters and everybody else so I I am. Blessed in that I got hands on training from some of the people who invented the music. Not Second third generation down the line from I. I got it right from check. Perry right from John Johnson. It'd be like a classical piano blurred getting lessons from Beethoven Bach. Yeah you know I was. I want curious on your viewpoint in this because you were talking about how the I guess. The media has a big effect on. Like you know how we see things these days and there were two situations that like thought about in the past one was when. I went to Nigeria. Because my family's from there when I was sixteen years old now when I went there I was playing soccer out. You know just playing soccer and kids and a lot of the younger kids they were saying like there is Sunday and all this and they're like so. Are you a blood? You a crib. And they were trying to talk like the random Nigerian kids. These are Nigeria. Yes yes hawk liked the rappers that you see on TV here because they're like they're asking me. If I was a blood or chrome like a modern gang and and I was just like okay. Were these kids getting this from and then another situation happened when I was a little bit older In a pass relationship of mine and the the father of the person I was dating wasn't from the United States he was he wasn't from. It wasn't even that here for that long of a time and after a three met me. He's like everything about insieme other than the fact that he's black now. When I thought about that too that had me I thought a little bit about Nigeria. I'm like the sky probably hasn't had that. Many interactions with people or African Americans. He has it but he's probably seen a lot of stuff on TV and he thinks worse certain way. So you know it's like the the you know when we go back to what you're saying of. How can you hate me even if you don't know me you can? It's also what's portrayed of us through through through what people see us as what they think of us on TV. Yes absolutely you know and I'll tell you something many you're right on it again I I've been jeopardy Lagos. And like I said I lived in Africa for ten years different other than idiopathic Ghana Guinea and Senegal and visited many countries in between And when I was a kid you know over there lead the African kids. They're always wanted imitate Americans and that's not a common thing you know. It goes back to the grass greener on the other side. You know what what kind of perfume to American Women Want French. Perfume well guess. What Frenchwoman was American purview If you will with with your girlfriend or whatever you want over a bottle of wide you want some French wine they want. American wide grass could win on the other side and and we try to identify with things that that we that we look up to Over here black-americans are our history was stripped away from us through slavery. Even our names You know And so even our culture and we had to assimilate and so will we get our freedom. There are a lot of us who want to try to identify with with with with something from our past that was taken away and oftentimes we. We don't get accurate information You have done something that many black people have not done. You went to Africa. Most Black Americans have never been and you saw things that they have not seen When I would come back as a kid and and my little classmates would find out other than Africa. Just bedrooms masterpiece. They asked me you see Tarzan not only white kids that too. Yeah because of the media right and so over here we want identify. Because we don't have we don't have roots. We want to make up our roots in active and tobacco central and a lot of times. We things around way You know the hairstyle but afro that used to be big back in the late sixties. Guess what that did not come from Africa that was invented right here in the United States. Even a lot of laugh people think the the the celebration. Kwanza and his African. It's not nope okay. It's not it was invented in California Byron Miranda Okay. He is pulling together different traditions. That are somewhat acrid centric CETERA. Give something to identify with but if not African so there are a lot of misinformation that the media puts out and then you know clam people tell me. I should be grateful of forbidding here even if I was a slave because if I hadn't come here after living a well obviously you know they haven't seen you know the cities in Africa. Africa is one big country. It's not it's one bit. Continent many countries and each country had many cultures. You know so. There is a lot that we're ignorant about ear all of us and and this is why why education is so important and why travel is so important otherwise would begin creating things that don't exist. And we perpetuate them they become a reality in our mom because you know once perspective is when reality and there and there is a saying. I've forgotten that. Who said it but something to be a set of the mass criminal. Gatien of a lot. I know more makes the truth in the mass disbelief of the truth. Makes it a lot? How do we have conversations with our kids about this? You know at the dinner. I doubt that these things will be really taught in school Because they they may have too much Controversy surrounding them. So how do we communicate with our children about racism? And how do we help them to Maybe not grow up like some of our ancestors how kids kids are our future and they love spending information. Mfl Kids do this. Absorbed at the dinner table is the perfect place because that s what conversations are solidified remembered and we should not be afraid to to be Not politically correct at the dinner table. I I personally believe political correctness. I've just been straight honest Political correctness shuts too many people down. You're afraid to talk with. You might offend somebody. I don't step on somebody's Whatever but it's our responsibility as parents to instill certain things in our kids if we want them to grow up and have the tools that they need to navigate society outside of school because school teachers certain things when when when I was in school I was not discriminated against. I read the same books as my white counterparts had the same teachers. I got roles in the school claims. You Know I. I thought I was just like anybody else. I didn't find out I was different until I graduate. And the people out there. Outside of school to differently I got turned down for job at the drugstore. You know I was told committed. Apply by one of my fellow classmates who said Hey. My boss was hiring people. You Know He. He wants me to bring my friends so I came in. Listen I know I'm being turned down and it wasn't that the job wasn't available we've got any black people you know So know it's like women for example women and it is again to prepare our daughters women. Today are still making a seventy nine to eighty one cents on a man's dollar for the same amount of work right. So how do you tell a woman in school do? Your best you know be is not good enough giving a as a work your butt off and hard and so these girls worked very hard and and maybe they've become class. Valedictorian ON GRADUATION. Day or something and then they get out there and just because of their gender. They don't get the job and some guy gets the job who who who may be less qualified than day than they are or or they get the job but the guys are getting the promotions at are getting paid more and they're thinking oil what could I go to Spoof. Work my butt off and this guy's not even as qualified as I am and he's getting promoted who des more money and I'm doing the work you know. How do you tell Black People Yet what worked as hard as you can But then when you graduate not gonNA matter equal with anyway. You know We we don't teach that in school but we have to teach kids that not. They should not work any less. We always WANNA strive to do our best whether you're a female black or whatever But we have to prepare our kids to realize that outside of school they may and most likely will be treated a little differently. How do you tell your daughter? She might undergo some kind of sexual Arizona on the job. I taught in high school all right so it comes as a shock to them is our responsibility as parents. It teach our kids bet which they don't learn who because we want them to be successful and be able to navigate society that's why Parents have was called the talk with their kids. And as you know we hear a lot about black black areas having the talk with their sons Why why can't have the talk with their kids also is different data talk though went win when black people we sort of the talk is what to do when you get pulled over by top. That's the talk that that black parents are referring to the talk that the white kids get is a has to do a sex education. You know. Don't come home pregnant. Use Use prophylactics. It's things like that. I don't want to be a grandmother at at eight. Thirty three or whatever So you know these are things that we may not be taught in school but it is. It is our responsibility to to make sure that our kids get a full three sixty education. Daryl Davis thank you so much for your time today. We really appreciate it. You gave us a lot of great information a lot of stuff to think about. Where can people find you and Also when is your when your New Book Going to come out on? Thank you for having me appreciate it. I'm still working on the new book. Hopefully he'll be completed by the end of this year. And come out it. Will it will be a sequel to the last. I'll have Some of the old stories a lot of updates on people where they are now and some new stuff because the first book came out We didn't have a black president. Wouldn't have the amount of illegal immigration all. The things that are driving supremacy wouldn't have Charlottesville we didn't have Donald Trump. So there's lots of the new book so it'll be out It'll be completed by the end of this year. Hopefully be out. Maybe by the end of the zero beginning next year you can find me at Daryl Davis Dot Com and Darryl is bell one Har- D. A. R. Y. L. Daryl Davis DOT COM. I hope you guys will just consider this to be part. One let love the Newport juice of that we would love that also definitely really quick. 'cause you just touched on. Charlottesville and I urge you in the past. You know because that whole thing at least on the surface it would appear because of like the people wanting to take down the confederate statues. And you know I. I know when people see the confederate flag it evokes a certain type of emotion. But you say that. That's American history and we shouldn't take it down on said we should take it down. We should not destroy destroy. Sorry Okay thank you yeah. The confederate flag is is American history. So a slavery so you know. We don't want to deny slavery not not exhibit. Things in our history is good bad ugly and all of it should be. Displayed is American. History and every country has bet I don't believe the confederate first of all. This country is called the United States. It only has one flat ambassador Flab. That shouldn't be flown especially over the state capital in. They were flying the confederate flag over the Chapel in South Carolina. Which I thought was wrong. That did not reflect all the people in South Carolina. I believe considered memorials should be taken down in a museum or build a confederate memorial part and dip the statues. Their flags. There people who want to do that now they are. You know that was the battle flag and end. The civil war was far was fought in the most part You know for for keeping slavery and that represented that now there those people say on another the flag represents southern heritage Blah Blah Blah. Well yes but there are many things a south has to be proud of slavery is not one of them and maybe you can find something else to be proud of. Showed that rather than show you flat. You're flying for slavery. But if you are told people this Stanford Stanford Heritage Okay here. Here's my challenge. Those people and I told them this. If you believe that flag stands for heritage every time you go to a Klan rally or just dual Klan Rally hit images you see confederate flags with rogue hooded Klansman and even people wear swastikas walking alongside confederate flag. Okay if you believe it hasn't Stanford hate then you want to reclaim your flag for heritage. Then you go to a Klan Rally with me you tell those people to give you back your flag. It does not stand for what they stand for. If you do that I will come over your house and I will give you considerate flag and hoisted up your fried full for. Thanks again. Enjoy the rest of your day. Thank you so stay friends? I will take you sir. Thank you powerful stuff guys. Wows IRS AWESOME AWESOME PODCAST? I'm really happy that we were able to talk to him. Yeah Klan Rally. He did you get. I get hurt like I told you guys before I shaved my head. I think I was like twenty one or something like that and I was going to coffee being my brother and I shaved my head all the way with a razor and I would get like these other ball guys would kind of like give me like a chin thing like Bro. You know kind of thing and I I would always kinda like giving nod back and then my brother's like you shouldn't do that and he's like I think they they think that you're a skinhead I'm like. Why did they think I'm like? Oh I have my head shaved real close and I'm pretty Damn Pale and stuff like that so I like I even get a little nervous around. I don't you know I don't want to. I wouldn't even WANNA be anywhere near a rally like that of any kind even being white. I wouldn't feel safe. I just don't I don't like the unease of that I certainly don't like what it represents. But it gives you like an uneasy feeling because these people What I'm imagining and I. I've never talked to them so I I don't know but like you're you're they're they're giving off kind of negative bad vibes you know and I just wouldn't want to be around. Yeah but you know just like this falls perfectly in line with what we were talking about yesterday in terms of rational thought Obviously you know this type of stuff makes him live. It makes them angry. Same thing like when I see it. It's just it's it's frustrating but you know having the courage and ability to just sit down and try to understand where somebody's coming from. You know you. You wouldn't assume that somebody like you wouldn't first off nick like oh their parents raise on this way. They haven't known anything else. Or you know exactly what he was mentioning like a certain city right. Where a bunch of immigrant workers come in. All their jobs are actually gone. And then someone's like come we have. You will be your friends. We support you. You know what I mean. Everybody comes from these different situations and if if more people were willing to just understand that and converse and even potentially be a friend to to that type of individual right it could. It could make a big difference rather than stuffing them to the side putting them in a box Like I asked him the question of Oh is there a common theme with all these people and he was very quick to say they're all individuals who come from different backgrounds. You can't just stuff them and they're all the same way just like some people think all the black people are the same. Can't do that at the interesting thing. Is that some people might might actually legitimately be going off of an experience whereas other people are just going off of just This kind of Genetic like ideology to just gets passed down. It's not really genetic but it's a it's an idea that gets passed down from one generation to another you know one person may have a direct experience. You know like I've heard Harold Howard stern talk about this before the school that he went to and he was a kid. I think he went to school in New York City. Most of the other kids were African American and he got beat up and made fun of all the time because he was a skinny nerdy. Little Jewish kid right and that was his experience so his experience was like. That's dangerous for me to be around Other black people there they want to inflict damage on me because I looked so different than them. Whereas somebody else might have the exact reverse thing happened and in both cases Neither one is necessarily correct but at least it elicits an explanation you know. I think that that's a decent explanation if you're going based off some history Had something happened to you? However again at some point be knowledgeable enough to recognize. Okay well that was just that group of people that happen beat me up and they could have been they. Because if Howard stern went to a regular high school and he looks nerdy and Dorky. He would be up by the jocks anyway. It wouldn't write it. Would it probably would probably think he was funny looking and different and they would tease and ridicule and maybe beat his ass. Anyway right so It makes some sense when people are going off of their experience a little bit. But at some point you're going to have to. You can only ride out that ignorance card for so long. It's yeah man. I'm happy that he he wants to come on again. Later on it'd be great person schommer. Yeah just I'm so. I'm a little little speechless. Mangoes amazing like you know the way he's able to take in some of the You know current events and admit that yeah it it does infuriate me but I'm not going to stoop to the level and I'm not GonNa do anything that's not going to help improve things you know. I mean some of US might see a bad comment on social media. And that'll like this. Ruin everything for us and what this have a long twitter war with somebody over something. Stupid and here is like one of the most difficult You know things that anybody can deal with. And he's like now. I'M GONNA go have conversation with like at the epicenter of where this all starts ends like Holy Shit man like. How do you even have the capacity to be willing to do that? You know so. Hopefully this leads. Maybe yeah you start maybe think of what other men in history like stood for stood up for When you think about like Martin Luther King and Malcolm X. and There's a there's a lot of people over the years that stood up for things that you know. Put them in. The line of fire ultimately getting assassinate air getting getting fascinated. And you know it's And like Abraham Lincoln and things of that nature and it makes sense what he does you know it makes sense how. He's not trying to like throw a punch back you know because if if if someone was a say hey you suck at basketball Well away that I could. You know prove that. I don't suck at basketball as I can to play you in basketball and I can try to be you But if you're saying that I'm dumb or I'm not capable of learning certain things or that I'm lazy I can't. I can't refute that. Bhai trying to punch you like that doesn't that's not helpful. The only way I can refute is to show you examples and maybe give you a better understanding of who I am and where I come from. Then you might say oh well you know that person is Italian and I saw. Italians were this and you know now you disprove their theory at least on one level and say well let me show you a couple of other examples and then you start to show people. Hey look. Here's another example. Here's another example. We see that training. We sat with nutrition. You know The KETO Diet Right. I realize that the racism of the much more serious thing than your nutrition but you know when some of these diets come along people like. There's no way that works. That's dumb. Anyone who does that stupid? I don't even like people that do that. I don't like people that count. People that count calories don't like people that do Carnivore Diet And they just assume that person is a certain way that they have certain thoughts. I think certain things and then later on. It's proven that you could lose weight this way. You could lose weight that way you could lose weight this way and then people are like I think in Seema's come to some realizations through some of the stuff on this podcast with nutrition and I've come to some realizations with some things that we've had in this podcast. You coming for more of a macro background me coming more from a background of you it. It really matters more on like what you eat. And you don't need to count the calories. I think both of us have kind of Have met in the middle somewhere. And and hopefully that's what people can do with all their beliefs because otherwise If you just always think the same thoughts and and you don't allow You don't allow other ideas to enter your mind you don't entertain them at all because you're stuck in your ways than how are you going to ever make any progress? All comes back down to like education like he said you know you look at some of these things and it's it's ignorance and lack of education that I mean and once you educate yourself on that then you can actually come to a real informed decision because in your mind you now have a true understanding of what's going on you know like back. Like bring this back seat attrition even though it's not nutrition but like you know when thinking about when. I was focused on just macro. Sol's eating a lot of bad food but making it fit right. I was feeling the best although like I was able to maintain some someone of whatever physique right when I realized like okay. I shouldn't have having this many processed foods. It's actually doing this to me. I could no longer rationalize bat wrong. Belief in terms of the foods. I was eating because I educated myself more about it. So it's all about specially when it comes back down to the race. Some of these people just need more education on in terms of the things that they believe. If you read a book and it says Black. People have smaller brains and book. You'RE GONNA believe black people have smaller brains and if everyone around us also saying the same damn thing that's GonNa be your belief so that is what it is member in football as to think like they couldn't be a black quarterback you know and then I think for a long time. They thought there couldn't be a black coach. And I still think maybe there's not a an African American winter In the NFL. At the moment. And you know like those those things it unfortunately just it takes a lot of time you know for these things to happen But then you have a lot of people that have disproven that that there's any truth any of this stuff at all. You Oprah Winfrey Magic Johnson. I mean the list goes on and on. You don't have to have that level to prove that these theories that people have had for years about different races are false but these people they prove time and time again. We've seen it throughout our history. I don't know if you guys had a chance to see the Harriet tubman movies on Netflix. It is it is fucking awesome. I mean it's it's amazing I I mean I knew some stuff. I knew that she helped free a lot of slaves but didn't know to the degree and I didn't I never really. I don't think I learned. I don't remember learning how it's a it's a it's a insane is insane story and even just like some of the even even some of the way that that it happens is is very interesting because the slaves as you can imagine we'll be in very good shape right and the slave owners as you can imagine are not in very good shape and Harriet tubman kind of understood like if I can just get these people some shoes. We're out of there because we can literally outrun them. We can get we can get away you know and they they show that in the In the movie where she brings him a bunch of shoes and they're able to you know they they they go like. I forget how far they had to go to get to their freedom to get to another state But this an amazing story I I encourage everybody. That's listening to this podcast to to check it out. You know it's not one of those real like Obviously a lot of dark stuff in there. Because there's a talks a lot about slavery but you know sometimes when you when you watch one of those type of movies. It's just so heavy like you don't even WanNa watch it but this one while it is heavy in that sense it. Also you know has a store. Amazing story of Harriet Tubman. So I think everybody should check it out. I'll note this Check out that. Harriet movie but then afterwards just Just google a Harriet movie. Fact check because That movie was Hollywood. Is Tall Ron a lot? There's a lot of just things in there. That's justice it's IT'S A. It's an enjoyable film. But just read after that real about a Harry or just like look up. Harriet Tubman Versus movie or something. So you can get an idea of like some things in the movie that were Hollywood. Ask you know. Yeah I remember when I was watching and I'm like no it's true and I googled a lot of it afterwards and checked it out and I was like okay. I kind of assumed that there was some stuff in there. That was dramatized. After after here in some of his experiences with some of the the racist and stuff that he had been in conversations with it really is. It's weird. 'cause I just recently saw movie that seriously pushes the narrative card that it is a It's part of not heritage. What's the word out shoot? I just went blank Tradition sort of. Yeah Yeah Lineage. Yeah in regards to like the black community like in the in this story. Culture part of their culture something like no like a gene almost ban on my brain is destroyed right now In the movie yellow the father was you know drugging went to jail and then so naturally the sun. That's that's the same path he's GonNa go down. No I'm not no not no not in the movie. They say like no. This is like what happens like because you already predestined to go. And in the movie it definite he ends up in the same jail as dad and watching it. I'm just I was like. Oh fuck like that. That sucks like maybe it's environment whatever Blah Blah but after hearing what we heard today and then watching this. I'm like damn somebody pushing the same narrative that the you know some of these. Kkk members are like. Is Somebody not going to be able to point to a net flicks movie and it has like some good actors in too has a guy that was In the Wu Tang clan documentary but It's just weird man. I think people need to like keep their eyes open for stuff like this. You know like we talk about media pushing a narrative with you know this virus and stuff looking at this movie now. I can see that they clearly were aiming for the same thing and I didn't even notice it until I heard the story from Daryl today was like Holy Shit Man. You know that's well that's why like I like you. Just look Google Google this like a lot of news articles and from CNN at like whatever When when there's a new store put on on like a black man that suspected of killing a crew of doing a crime it's like the title is Gangster or whatever Blah Blah does this. It's it's a very misleading title right and because you can find all this stuff to when when our white person is suspected doing a crime or something like that. The title is like Oh Something student suspected of this. Or whatever like it's it's pushed in a different light to already make you look a certain way at the individuals. That's being suspected of doing it. And this this has been a cow. Like this has been recounted so many damn times you could find it right now and it's just again. It's the way the narrative is pushed forward. It's it sucks. It really finds they. They they banned it you know they. They bend it whatever way they need to. It's not necessarily false information. But they mention that you know someone who's white that had crime went to USC. You know so. Does that? Make all or ship that makes you went to a private university like he must've Yeah he's on a scholarship they they're trying to soften the blow and. I wish we had a little bit more time. Maybe next time we have on the show you know. I think I told you guys when I went to Washington. Dc and explaining all the history. How like they're they're showing like George Washington's property and it was amazing to be on his property and they they're telling you about this historic thing in this historic thing and this is where they had the animals this right I had this guy that as read slaves over here and then so anyway. I'm trying to ask some more questions. And they're basically in not so many words not one hundred percent said this way there were like he was like a really nice slave owner. And I'm like I don't thoroughly the questions I'm I'm asking I I'm not even trying to judge Any of that I just I would just like to know more information about this and It was funny the way they just tried to not funny actually but it was interesting. How they glazed over that as if like that's not like what's not talk about that part and I'm like well why why not. I mean we're talking about everything else that he did. We're talking about All these great things that he did and how he's our first president and and all these things We should be able to talk about How had some faults? And how he you know. He's living under some misconceptions But I mean a lot of people were at the time that doesn't excuse it but why not just talk about it a little bit more and talk about it openly? It's not like we don't know that it happened anyway. You know my girlfriend was telling me the other day that the like it was few years ago but there was a push to try to take slavery out of the curriculum in school. You know again that that is history that needs to be taught that that our country did that because just like I think when we were. You know Bo-hi Tar you know when all the history knows when you understand things that happened in the past preparing for things that may happen in the future it could give. It can give you an understanding of the capacity of our government. What like what we were willing to do. You know so it's important. Yeah and and you know it's it's like it's the worst thing ever right like it had its biggest in American history right like like fuck. Do that happened like that's terrible so to not teach it in school. It's almost like let's just wipe that part away and let's keep moving good right. It's it's probably the most important thing to teach really i. I really think it is. I think it is. It's important that we we teach and we talk about our differences and I think it's really important that we we show the injustices because who cares about the things that are just. I mean. They're not a problem. They're not you know why why now. It's understandable to be patriotic. It's understandable to celebrate some stuff here and there I mean I remember when I was a kid and they would talk about the different wars and I'm like did we winter. Did WE LOSE? You know I was always interested in that and then thinking back on it. How dominant is because like war? Is this a giant loss for everybody? You know I'm not I'm not necessarily a tree hugger by any means. I think that we need to stand up. Stand up for our rights and things like that and we sometimes. Unfortunately we sometimes have to fight. But no one's really winning right. No one's really Coming out on top in these kind of these kind of things but I think it's super valuable to teach about slavery all the different things that have come from that because it it paints a picture it sets things up for part part of the reason why things are the way they are today and you have you know the white people saying it. They haven't had you know slavery for X. Amount of years you know you have both sides you know saying saying they're piece but that neither side is really trying to learn from each other and that's that's more of what we need awesome style says that was that was awesome. Thank you Daryl Davis appreciate it. I can't wait to get him on the show again. And also maybe we can have an opportunity to Listen to him play. I don't know if you guys had opportunity to check out Him playing the piano and stuff like that but holy Shit. Panic is talented young guys on Youtube. Cool awesome well. Thank you everybody for taking out. Today's episode we sincerely appreciate it. Thank you perfect. Kito for sponsoring this episode for more information on them. Please check the youtube and facebook description as well as the podcast show notes Please make sure you're on the podcast at Mark Bells Power Project on Instagram. At NBC. Power Project on Tick Tock and twitter. My instagram is at Andruzzi. Insieme where you at at Encima. Instagram youtube out. Insieme Yin Yang onto tuck and twitter mark. There's so much to get out of today's podcast but I think something that'll be useful and helpful to everybody who listened today and I think you can implement it into your game right away is. Don't let the things that you hear a don't let them trigger an emotion You can have the feeling you can feel. Enraged you can feel upset. You can feel sad. You can feel mad but ask yourself. How is it helpful? Is it something that's GonNa help you get to the end result? Is it something that's GonNa really help you to make progress? And if it's not start to filter those feelings and start to make more sense to them and think about them in a more rational way so you can combat these things with more knowledge and the more knowledge that we have the more things that were able to share with each other the the more likely we are able to affect a lot of change in one another and I think that's you know that's really what a lot of us need at this moment on that Mark Smelly Bell. Strength has never week this week. There's never strength y'all later.

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Change a Mind, Save a Generation w/ Daryl Davis

Reds Ramblings

41:57 min | 11 months ago

Change a Mind, Save a Generation w/ Daryl Davis

"Welcome may be the reds ramblings I have with me today Daryl Davis Darryl is an American musician and leader of the Dale Davis Band who has played with Chuck. Berry Jerry Lee, Lewis be king and many others as considered one of the greatest boogie woogie artists of his generation. There'll is also known for his involvement in befriending members of the KKK and other organizations of the like in getting them to change their views of the world to renounce those ideals and see a world in better is thank you so much Darrell for joining me today. My voice just cracked I. AM crazy nervous. Wasn't to the show. Thank you. It really appreciate your taking the time to speak with me. Well I when I sent the email to your receptionist. I was not expecting our pie hours at work the night that I got the reply and. Crazy crazy excited craze excited. So, once again, thank you. You've done a lot. You've done in your life from. Going up traveling all of the world you know with your parents. You follow was a member of foreign services if I remember correctly. Rude. To plan in in bands and playing music for easily probably mostly your your life for sure and primarily is what you do. But you're also incredibly well known for what you've done in like I just mentioned in changing the minds of individuals. To. See the world better see world how it should be seen in my opinion others would argue against that but. You, know Sally, the world we live in but that's not how you got started I don't. I don't recall reading or listening to anything about you start like, Hey, I'm going to start changing minds right? No I never I never set out to do that you know. It kind of became organic. I just set out to find out you know why people think that way that ideology come from. And And as a result of of conversations the ideology began changing was not something that I. Had planned. I never set out to convert anybody even though the media. Puts, it out well, know black musician converts x number of a clansman I didn't convert them. They converted themselves but I would say that I was the impetus you for their for their self introspection conversion. Yeah. Because I I've listened to private like most people I I heard of you in from articles or whatnot light like said, media says, you know Black Musician Converts two, hundred plus members of KKK. By I really heard you on the Joe. Rogan podcast. I would assume a lot of people as well and since then. Big. Fan Love you do we definitely more people like that? Like. Yourselves to to do the same thing and just. Again you say you don't convert you don't. You'd never set out to do it, but it ended up being seems to be the case sometimes but just to get people to see the world through a better better worldview to see that we are all alike. We have tons of differences but when it comes down to it, we're just human beings precise just. You know and you mentioned my my traveling and stuff as a as a kid in the Foreign Service I'm sixty two years old and I started traveling at the age of three and nine, hundred, sixty one. I traveled around the world living in different countries during my formative years and when you combine my travels as a kid with my travels now, dope musician traveling around the world performing I've been now in fifty seven different countries on subcontinent's, and I've seen a lot of different people I've seen a lot of different religions, different cultures, different belief systems you know whatever. But you planted it out when I when I come home. At the end of the day. You know I conclude one. Then we all are human beings. No matter how far I've gone from this country and we we all basically want the same four or five things who wanna be loved. We want to be respected. We want to be heard we want to be treated fairly. Thing for our family is anybody else their family and as long as we can you know remember those core values and and give those to the people that we encounter regards who they worship, how they worship. You know what color they are, what languages speak how different than me look or whatever we can navigate that society. So I apply that to the white supremacist as well or anybody yes. Yes. I know I I live in south. Carolina. Born and raised here in the south. Obviously, why for anyone who's not watching the video? I'm white. And My I. I've never been outside the country, but my my fam-, my my grandmother has in my grandmother was born in on a tobacco farm in North Carolina. So. Out of the country from. South Carolina. Shout. Yes but she s shoveled since no longer with us but I distinctly remember going up curious because I knew where my grandmother came from tobacco farm in North Carolina I since I'm new, she came from I was always curious as to what her views on. Other races where she never gave off that vibe of racism, right? But it never really been spoken right 'cause. I remember when I I dated a young black woman named Rachel and hours legitimately worried to bring her home a new mom was going to be okay with our not worried about that but. Strictly because my grandmother was raised on tobacco. Farm in North Carolina. I was a little hesitant even on new my grandmother very well sometimes, you just don't know everything, right? Something something in your mind toll you I need to tread cautiously here. What was that thing? I think it was literally just. You know she was sixty seven. I think when she passed and this was twelve ish years ago I wanna say I think sixteen or seventeen when. I was dating this girl. So I think it was just knowing how she grew up and knowing how tobacco farms no, I just kind of. Guess. Blindly. Believed that there was some racism probably entrenched in her upbringing right because early nineteen hundreds on a tobacco farm in the south. I just blindly believes that right? But. I remember bringing Rachel home sitting on the couch with my grandmother Cross House like Hey introduced. Swedish s fine. You love you be who you to be. I. Remember like a wave of relief washing over me. You Know I. Felt so it felt great. You know what? I'm saying because. Again in my mind I wasn't one hundred percent shore I. Remember that wave. Just just rushing over me and that that was my first inclination that even if you came from what people would assume to be. Possibly have a place where racism was. A thing gain early nineteen hundreds, tobacco farm North Carolina some people. Automatically assume that right to know that at least my grandmother wasn't one of those because I'm not one of those. My family's never been one of those people. It brought us such a huge relief to me. And In growing up one of the things I've hated hated to see is I've plenty of black friends I grew up with. And one thing especially this year this year it's been. A roller coaster of emotion of turmoil of everything in this country, right? and. Since I started this podcast, I started this podcast kind of just to have fun right to to talk with people. Share ideas have some laughs. and. Then the George Floyd situation happened. And that struck me. To like really it. It struck me to my core to an extent. Never met the guy never been over in that part of the country but I know people I know people have experienced that I know people that have. No have other people in their families. Their friends relatives have experienced that kind of situation. and. The fact that it was like put live out there for the whole world to see as it happened. Is Like I don't remember who exactly I think. It was your your Bart podcasts that you have on your own podcast. When you said that was the straw that broke the camel's back. Because you mentioned, you know they're been callous cases for some reason that one struck a nerve in this country while put part of the reason there were several factors one we you know the viruses out there. Yes. So people were out of work they're on lockdown, their businesses are shut. they had to stay home. So what are they do? They watch TV they tune into social media you know, and so their their whole focus was on that. If I had there not been the virus you know it would have been just a footnote in the news somewhere. I mean. So you know people people who needed to see it in. We see it. We as in black people. See it all the time. Yes. But the people who need to see it were were watching this time around because there was nothing else they could do they. They weren't focusing on their jobs so they didn't have a job at that particular time. Now I think I was working at the time but again, I'm in the south. So it was front page everyone the whole country whole world was talking about it. And so my my focus on the PODCAST SORTA shifted. because. Being a Wyckoff from the South I kinda felt like I had to essentially do my part do what I could. To bring focus to the situation and let people know that. That's not the wish can be that that the world should not be that way. Did you know situation that occurred just then? So I saw talking to black friends of Mine I. My old therapist is a black man Dr Terry Miller to Him who helped me a lot growing up because I was angry kid growing up right. He helped me a lot. I'm still friends with him to this day. brought. Him On spoke about situations that he's had encountered. He owns his own business. He has a he's a doctor in child psychology and whatnot. and. He was still experiencing stuff like fat and that Ellison Story from him I never experienced like he he never told me about and other friends I've spoken to are telling me stuff that I had no idea about you know 'cause I knew them at on on a friendly level as you know, hey, what's up? Cool. Yada Yada by never known that stuff like that happened to them right Donald. White privilege. Hundred percent hundred percent. and. Make. To hit even more when I thought of you know. I didn't really have neighbors growing up essentially we in a small little little tight knit community, but it was like. You know if if I grew up here and I had my opinion, but I had essentially a black neighbor right across the street from me. And went to the same school mayhem. Her went to the same school. Same everything. Yet, he would have had a totally different upbringing than I did. Strictly because he was black because he or she was a different color, does he have it'd be black just any other color other than white they would've been treated differently growing up then I would have they would experienced totally different things than I would have, and that pisses me off. I. Get really does. But and so talking with that and seeing it on a level that I kind of knew about that. Like you said, I've never experienced that. To, to any sort of degree in Oh. Sometimes yeah. Sometimes, it can be overt of comes it. It can be very subtle elect for example, example I was hired to play the piano behind this lady singers. And we went into some rural area to to go do this Gig club and we stop to get gas on the way down there and the gas station had like a little convenience store inside, and so she'd gone in there to get chips or candy or something, and I came in after pump my gas and she was in line. and. So. She paid the lady the money whether she was buying the lady took the money out of her hand and gave her change back in her hand. And I would couple people behind. So she's standing off to the side waiting on me. Then I give the lady a hand out to twenty dollar bill or whatever she takes it. And a hold on behalf of the change she puts it down on the counter. Yeah. You know my friends saw that as she like freaked out like now this is a white lady singer and you know she said she'd heard about that kind of thing but she never yeah yeah and it was just a subtle thing but I see it all the time. Yeah. It's it's something that. You know again I'll I'm trying for my little platform that I have with my show in just. Talking. With people I'm trying to bring light to to try and. Close that divide close at divisiveness. The we have because you've traveled around the world to different countries and you see similarities even though so and so was born literally on the other side of planet right with mine I primarily speak to people from other countries. I've spoken with a gas from Malaysia, a woman from the Philippines Japan China Ecuador Estonia. You name it South Africa everywhere. I'm trying to write and at the end of the day that's what you see. You see like okay. So so had a completely different upbringing different religion different job different everything rich poor doesn't matter. But when you speak to him and you get on that level, we're all alike were all like. And it's wonderful. It's wonderful when when you come to see that it's like some, I've always known in the back of my mind. But to have this experience, have this ability to go out and speak to these people and realize that have essentially there in your face like me and you are kind of face to face right now to see it face to face that that dude. That guy that is the same as me just from over there you know or over there and it's it's wonderful to come across to experience and you know is is our fault that we don't do more of that because okay. So I said I've been to fifty seven countries. I've been to the forty nine out of our fifty states as well but. Not Everybody is going to have that experience. Yes, and that does not make me a better human being anybody else. It just gives me a broader perspective. But To today's technology which you have employed very well you are still traveling. You're doing it virtually. All right. To the telephone through email through zoom through whatever you are communicating with people outside of your home base of South Carolina and in a so essentially you are traveling at which brings to mind you know one of my favorite quotes, which is the travel quote by by Mark Twain it's called the travel quote and Mark Twain said travel is fatal to prejudice bigotry narrow-mindedness and many of our people needed sorely on these accounts broad wholesome charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one when little corner of the Earth All one's lifetime and that is so true. So you know most Americans don't travel. And and even about fifty percent of us don't even have passports, but there's There you go You know but there's no excuse not to to explore. Be At virtually or whatever you know not everybody may have the money or or the time or whatever to go across the Vanik Ocean or the Pacific Ocean to some of the land or whatever. But we can access that. We have the technology we have the tools and there's no reason not to explore that. You know this is our planet. And I, you know I. I know people who live like I live. For example, I left fifteen minutes from DC line I live in. Maryland. So watching DC's is only fifteen minutes away during non rush hour, I could be at the White House in twenty twenty, five minutes. I know people who live fifteen minutes on the other side of me. So they're about maybe thirty, five, forty minutes. From downtown DC, they've never been to the Washington Monument. Why Really Yeah Yeah Yeah, I know I've been saying to everyone who I speak to. Because when we speak of so many people and I'm sure you've you've come across it as well. You learn things that you never would have thought. Right I. Had An American education sauce certain things and one I'm already always been a lover of history I love history anyways. But in talking with people from around the world I, find that there's some stuff that's left out right certain stuff that you know. Right. Exactly. And so so my worldview in that sense of has been broadening like I'm trying to. My kid gets you know to where he's able to learn a little bit easier. I'm definitely GONNA show him the same on learning right now because I don't want him to. Go up that you you kind of forced to be narrow minded because it's all you know. But like you just mentioned what today's technology you have the ability if you so choose to get out there in the world in one form or another. You said I can't. I. Don't travel no one really challenge right now. anyways. I still am able to speak with people all over the world. You know I have a podcast later on today with a lady from the Netherlands you know so I'm still able to do this in. In some fashion and is bringing everybody closer and so I want to ask you one thing for sure in the US you've been alive you've been you've seen it essentially. All right. I mean, what would it be fair to say even though the George floor definitely was like took us to these steps back but it highlighted an area that needed to be talked about it highlighted something that needed to be discussed needed to be focused upon. Do. You see US getting better. Be strictly because of the access we have to information around the world like you don't have that narrow-mindedness so much anymore. is still there under the surface but yes, we we are. We are turning the page absolutely and I'll tell you what that pages we turn pages with Rosa Parks. We turn pages with Dr, King You know we turn pages with Rodney. King but we're turning a major page. In the book. With George Floyd and as I pointed out before on another interviews, you know there have been countless George Floyd's in the past This particular Jewish Floyd was indeed strub the that broke the camel's back now. What, what we're seeing here is, yes, it's getting better It's it's bittersweet because there's so much. Chaos and violence. The went on but you know anytime there's going to be change. There's GonNa be some upheaval because human beings are creatures of habit. You know they talk the talk but most of them don't walk the walk. They WANNA. See Change you know they want this that. But but then when it comes, they're not ready for and the people and resistance. So. We're seeing. More of collective voice today. And I believe that what's going on today is probably the most significant and best thing that has happened. In nineteen, sixty eight. which is in the twentieth century. Right? I was ten years old and sixty eight This is when Dr King was assassinated. because we're seeing more of a collective voice once collective voice more people who don't look like me but just the painting in in these. Marches and protests and demonstrations for the rights of all people We'd where we went seeing that a lot in the past we've always had a white people participate in our protests. They've always been there for only been a handful. You know through the sixties stuff today you look at at the protesters man, it's almost half and half. And that collective voice that brings change. Because when? In the past you know You had this big seed of black people marching in demonstrating in crying out for equal justice enough is enough and so forth salon. with the powers that be in other words the white power structure you know they're like this. They don't WanNa hit we have to say they shut us down. But today when they see they a see us they're seeing more people who look like them. So therefore now, they're like what's up pulling out the year plans and putting in hearing aids and they're listening. So. You know they're they're listening. And for the first time in our history, we are seeing changes. Come a lot faster than we've ever seen before we're seeing. THE NASCAR Ban. The. FLAG THE STATE OF MISSISSIPPI hold out you know pulling symbol. Yeah. the aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben's food brands within legislation be passed to take down a statues and all this kind of stuff So these things you know and we're seeing police officers who who've been blatantly You know not honoring their code of conduct and all that kind of thing being charged and and fired a lot quicker where in the past if they were charged if they were fired, it took months and months. Yes now. So what what is the difference? Between. Why that happens so much now than when we've been crying out for it for decades, the differences we have more of that collective voice. Yes you know and it was that collective voice voice that that put Barack. Obama. In office, for example, black people did not put. Barack. Obama. In office it was white people black people only make up twelve percent of this country. I am an out of that twelve percent not all of us are eligible to vote. Some of US are too young. Some of us are not registered some of us are felons. So we lose that right to vote but even let's say even if Every black person in this country including newborn babies were could vote still would not have been enough to get Barack Obama elected I do need a large percentage of the white vote to help out who's GonNa, say we're only twelve percent and less than that when it comes down to convert right twenty years ago Obama never could one. And then other black black leaders who are definitely qualified to run this country. But the attitude was not there the same attitude. But you worried about in regards to your grandmother that attitude that you were concerned about when you were going to bring your black friend Rachel home or whatever you know that attitude did exist in this country twenty years ago and there was no way in heck they're gonNA put a black man in the White House. By two, thousand, eight, there were enough people a WHO attitudes had changed and they were willing to say, Hey, you know what? I like that guy's policies. Yeah. You know he's got my boat check and That's how it happened that collective voice and that's what we need to focus on. The the collective force not just. This voice, it has got to do this. Do this we gotta bring everybody into the fold. Yeah and I could easily agree I'm only thirty but in the Times that. Other George fluctuations have happened. You would always send social means. Thing is you would see certain group of people. Okay. With whatever happened and other people vinny. How dare that happened bubble blah. Right and I could easily easily see a shift. After George Floyd by. You you never used to think that way but now you are you you were against. Black people essential or you gave off that vibe. But, now, you can see that they're defending them. I can easily see that from the white individuals that I know. That, there's deathly bid a more vocal shift of their defense of black people and how they are treated. I, see that easily you know again being here in the south. It's it's his either he knows eight. It's very divisive down here. I remember we had the We all had the confederate flag atop the state capital and that was a very divisive thing as well. Yeah and I know since speaking Since. The George Floor and other instances happen I. I have a friend who? was military at one point, and now now he's going to be a cop right. So a huge a white individual and I had him on and the reason I had him on his he openly spoke about how he was raised around like he knew members of his family were in the clan. So while he didn't necessarily. See himself as part of the clan. He was Kinda grew up around that idea that following. So it was in his mind as as a child growing up. and. So we kind of lived a life. More geared towards those people than someone of a more open mind it wasn't until he joined the military. And he was surrounded by people from all over the country from over the world where he he finally started to see that while all that shit you know I grew up learning. About I'M NOT GONNA say white power because he didn't even say that either. But about one one, one type of people being better than any other isn't isn't the thing I keep I am on the battlefield I'm having to to depend on my black brother or Asian brother or whoever it is have my back so I can go home to my family. He was open about he was like, yeah I like I realized that that was not right. That the way my family was was not the way that the world should be and he was open about it. And so when you got out he He started to he joined a police force here locally, and he he went to the training and he's all like the training wasn't. What he expected it wasn't as good as he expected. So. He actually switched over to another agency because they had a whole lot better training a lot better of Individual training a lot better. You know racial injustice training so on. So forth was a lot more immersive. and. So that's his plan right now as he climbs the ranks is to be that bad guy that the vocal power to say, Hey, look we're all in this together man like you can't go off to so and so for one thing and they go after another one and because these different, you can go after him a little bit harder. Saying. We're all the same. We gotTA protect everybody and kind of stuff and the fact it. It made me. You know it shocked me a little bit not shot me but it warned my heart essentially that is was open about it. Opened by the he expressed it and I'm sure his family heard it and he probably got some bad calls and bad looks you know after the fact but the fact that he's he stood his ground and he came out and open and admitted to the false that he had going up Mitt a lot in my opinion and young and you know as you point out yeah he probably got some sideways glances from members of his own family but he also may have connected with the members of his family and some of his buddies from high school or whatever else. You know and gave them pause. For thought yet, and perhaps you know they'd be beat it because I tell you something. I can tell you a similar story that I. See all the time and not so much during lockdown. Of course, as you point out, you know we're not traveling but. I give anywhere from sixty to eighty lectures a year. Mostly colleges and universities, but other places as well and two to three out of every ten lectures I give. This will happen. I. Not do the lecture, and then I'll do a Q. and A.. And and at the end of the lecture the. I'm done know they'll still be students who will pool approach me the podium Dass one mass question or whatever, or they wanNA see some of the plan robes and I brought her right well, two or three times out of ten. They'll be one student off in the distance standing away from the crowd. And here she is not doing anything. They just kind of milling around as I've come to learn was happening because they're not leaving they're not standing. It's. Nothing. Well, what they're doing is they're waiting to leave me when everybody dissipates he or she will come over and they're like, you look around make sure nobody's around. Let's say, Hey, you know I really enjoyed your lecture. You know. My Mom's in the plan on my dad's a Neo Nazi and that's how I was raised. And they they talked about their neighborhood and whatever else and and now they're at University of filling the blank and I'm dating this this this a Jewish guy or girl Oh, my girlfriend's black or my best friend is gay or my boyfriend's Muslim or whatever, and I can't bring that person home parents kill me or they'll disown me and I don't want to my friend. My friend will drop me. So they got the secret that is burning ulcer on their chest and they got to get it out and you know I'm the best person for them to talk to So you know we talked about. It but it's exactly what you're pointing out. You know they come from a homogeneous area where everybody goes to the same high school. They read the same book they cheer the same sports team a swim in the same community swimming pool shop grocery store go to the same Church of vote for the same politicians. So essentially, it's very homogeneous. Yes and then when they leave their and come to college signed a high schooler neighborhood doesn't necessarily come with them, right? Yeah. But at the college or university, there are neighborhoods from all over the country and people there from all over the world and they're seeing things that. The never learned about in the neighborhood or that blatantly did not sit what they were taught in the neighborhood. Yeah you know yeah. Some of them Jewish people have horns or black tails. You know whatever you know those things myths and so they are realizing this. And realizing how how unfortunate the appears back home or that they have not seen this. You know and How do they go home and tell their parents? You know what you thought about such such simply isn't true. Dip their parents wanted them to go and get an education, but they didn't want him to get that education data at yeah. Yeah. Yeah I think I don't know like Noah's come to me and said, Hey, I've watched some of your stuff and I see where what I was thinking was wrong or at fault right I'm hoping there's someone out there that thinks that. Because your podcast is called changing minds right around zero labors. Love while yes. Tall changing minds apparently, everyone needs needs to listen to that because I've been since the. Receptionist got back with me. I've been listening to a fair amount of done all of it, but I've been a good amount of it. Oh it's wonderful. But a few months ago I before I even found out. You had you podcast I made a shirt kind of wearing it. I'll know if you see it. Anyway Exchanger mind. Change of mind save a generation because essentially I feel that's what it is like you've, let's say, let's us, your two hundred plus clans members that have essentially had their mind changed with they go back to their family and hopefully if all is well, you know they changed their wives, husbands, mind daughters, sons, whatever. That's a whole generation that's been changed as well. And in turn any. Individual. Not of their type, not not of of white person that they interact with essentially is. Basically they could be befriended with now that they don't see them as an adversary or is lesser than. That's a whole generation saved essentially. I started mine and found out that your podcast is kind of playing around the same thing. That's that's cool. I like that but it is what it is. What needs to happen is definitely what needs to happen because there are a lot of backward thanking people in this world bat like you said are closed minded. Grew up very tight knit community and it's all they've been around and they have yet to experience the real world outside and even if you can't travel by recant right now, the fact that you can hop on the Internet and reach out to people even if you don't reach out, you just pull up articles of cultures and religions and whatnot and find out how similar we are it will. It will lead one day hopefully to. This ignorant hate that some people hab dissipating and I, want to I know with your interview with Bart Brands of if I says correctly. You asked him. If he ever feels like racism in general end and he he said no because there are people who hate and Yada Yada. I've always is kind of like a running joke in my opinion but I, truly believe it as well that racism will end one day for sure. and. It might just be when everybody hooks up with everybody and we're all back to being the same color central you know. It. Kinda just Lisa's same thing that. Definitely. Raised the amount of racism back then. It was a lot more quiet and. Sheltered in a sense unless something happened, but now a social media. Ignorant people have a voice sometimes and they can spread out that, hey, and get other people to. Light my individuals to form their own group, and now you've got this huge voice vocal group of hate and bigotry and whatnot and. Slowly but surely I think we are chipping away at that. We, need to do a faster but the world bests, not the way the world works sadly and. But I I definitely want to I know our time's coming up. So I wanNA thank you so much. One one last thing I. Want To say before I give it up to you is. When I when I heard about you? I knew of your lectures and your your talks with clansmen and you're opening their minds and having them see a different picture. Right I've never listened to your music. By Love Music Best One thing I I think my mother four. So when you`re When I got the confirmation now going to be able to have on I was like well crap. This may have plays, bleep views, music jazz, and all that kind of stuff I love that type of music. Let me listen to his stuff. So you have a thing on spotify, right? And the first song that hit was broadminded. And so I'm Bacon I like. All right. This is open minded God. This is I'M A, I'm a get this. Buddy was laughing. Because I had this one view. And you can. Say yes I was. I was at work laughing my ass off. It was so funny I was like this is my kind of guy. De. Daryl once again, I cannot thank you enough. I'm still shaking I'm crazy nervous is anything you want to say before we go I just finished writing my second book. is going through the editing process now but maybe you know when it does come out probably won't be until next year whatever but I'd love to come back and props dogs more whatever. I guess just stay in touch on your list stay in touch unless A. Student again or something you know we got we got a lot more ground to cover. We can do it again. Yes. Yes. Like this the first time because I'm on time Tomlin I actually wrote down notes. which is usually not my thing but I would absolutely love that that would mean a lot to me. But Again Daryl thank you very much. Everyone listening changing with Daryl Davis checkout his PODCAST Open your mind. It's not GonNa hurt the listen you might learn a few things. You definitely will learn you. Thanks. Let's get out. Right you won't is not a maybe you will learn something new. Thank you again, Darryl and plays have yourself a great one full day you to stay in touch. Take care. Bye Bye. Bye Bye. Holy Shit. That was fucking amazing. I. Loved it. I'm nervous crap. I'm hungry Shit and who but. anyways, thank you all for for listening disc episode. Definitely mental out to me. Somebody that know me very well know how? fucking pissed off I am anything racism in his race just shit involved is always fucking wrong way. Now that I feel talk with him, I can Kinda cuss and whatnot feel like respect I shouldn't have done that when did do interest? Yeah thank you. Fall involves begging for watching. Hope you like it. Like share Scott all the kind of good shit. Hopefully, I'll can have their back as. To later on that caught me off guard as well. So again, thank you, everybody. I'm going to go eat something and calm the hell down by.

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Special episode: Racial Injustice: KKKrossing The Divide. Daryl Davis

How Do We Fix It?

34:33 min | 1 year ago

Special episode: Racial Injustice: KKKrossing The Divide. Daryl Davis

"We're on pause this week instead of a new episode of how do we fix it? We're gonNA share something from. Let's find common ground, which is a new podcast series from the Common Ground Committee. Why because this episode was made in response to the death of George, Floyd in Minneapolis and the many protests that erupted across the country. I'm the host of this podcast with my friend Ashley Tight. It starts right here as we record this episode. Cities are erupting over racial injustice communities of color, facing visible threats. Leaders who should bring us together seem incapable of doing so. This is let's find common ground. I'm Richard Davies. I'm actually known tight. We speak today with musician activist, author and Bandleader Daryl Davis. A black man who spent well over thirty years, speaking with an at times befriending white supremacists, we hear from Daryl about his extraordinary quest and strategy to improve race relations and find ground. Welcome to let's Find Common Ground Daryl. Thank you. Thank you both very much for having me Daryl before. We hear your story. We're doing this interview at a time of national dispatch and deep anger over racial injustice. What's your response to the killing of George Floyd in police custody and to everything that's happened since. Well. One a lot of anger, a lot of frustration that must be panelled into communication and brilon-wald, not police training as everybody wants to wants to say, training has nothing to do with it. You're out there selecting a particular group of people in this case, black people and you're not treating white people the same way it has nothing to do with training as to do with humanity. Emphatically said training is not the answer. What what's an alternative? An alternative is having regular meetings with your community. Police procedure listening to your community about their concerns and their fears of the police. Listened to the police concerns about the community and don't do it every time something happens, do it on an ongoing basis. It has to be an ongoing proactive staying when you are given that kind of a party which you have the authority to take somebody's life. Then you need to be more accountable than the average person. Can there be anything positive that comes out of what has happened. The upside of this particular protests and and murder. Lynching if you will? That a lot of people. Who Look like the officers who committed this lynching are now joining in the protests and that's different. We've always had white people in protest with US civil rights movement, but this time around Salat. And maybe now they will be heard because in the past. When they were predominantly black, they were never heard. And that's why that is happening again and again and again and the reason I called this a lynching. Is this you? I'm sure you've seen the pictures of of a black man hanging from the tree, and the crowd gathered round coining smiling. That's like a family affair. Even little girdles ankle smiles on their faces. There've been several pitchers like that of different lynchings. That group is called a lynch mob. When you have four police officers on camera, two of them, holding a black man down the third one. Choking him to death with his knee on his net, and the fourth one, holding the crowd back of passersby on the sidewalk. That is a lynch mob especially when it is illegal. The the hold was illegal. Demand was not resisting aren't stomach. He's crying out for his Mama. and. He's saying I can't breathe and you are murdering him while looking into the camera. With defiance, one Tom Blatant disregard for the law that you are sworn to uphold what is the difference between that and the pitchers that we've seen from the nineteen twenties. So your work is with extremists with white nationalist with with racists, but are you saying that there's also a huge problem with bystanders with people just not speaking up? The bystanders have spoken up. They were speaking up right there during the lynching. Saying get off him. He can't breathe. You can't breathe. And if you watch that video again, you'll see one of the by-standers. Come a little closer and the guy on his neck, which is for gun. Those other three officers should have pulled their fellow officer off that man. They knew he was doing wrong. Charge them and let the jury decide. Whether they're guilty or not, and what their fate should be, but yet they're out running the streets. We have complained. We've been talking for decades about this. And it's falling on deaf ears, so people want to know why. Why do these buildings get burned down every time? You have something like this happens. Now, I'm not advocating that kind of destruction I'm not justifying kind of destruction, but I will tell you why it happens. If you. Get pulled over by the police for running a red light or speeding. You issued a citation. If if you do something wrong to somebody, they might sue you. Already situations or attached to money. And the reason being is because when somebody's separates you from your money, it acts as a deterrent. When people have talked you and told you time and time and time again. What's happening and you don't live them? Then people feel they have no choice but to write you that ticket. Pursue you to impose a fine upon you, and that's what they do when they burn down these buildings that cost the city money. Now officer Derek chauvinist. The man had eighteen complaints against him. Obviously some somebody or rural somebody's. Spoke up eighteen times and nobody listened. Which is why it led to what happened. Why did they allow this man with that? Many complaints that they have in his personnel file, allow him to roam the streets and continue his job. They brought this on themselves, and this is not something that happens in a vacuum. It's been happening and nobody's been listening, so they figure well now. Maybe maybe we'll get their attention. Daryl Davis on the outrage over the killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis. The rest of our interview with Dr was conducted before this happened, and after the outcry over the murder of a MoD archery Georgia I began by. Daryl Davis about his ears of discussions with white supremacists, and how he convinced members of the Ku. Klux Klan to hang up their robes and quit. Well let's say this. I did not convince them. They convinced themselves I was simply the impetus for that I planted the seed, and nourished it, and gave them enough reason to think and and just introspection and reconsider their path, and in doing so the they made up their mind to choose another direction. Take back I mean. How did they start? Okay, but we have to go back to my childhood for that I'm sixty two years of age, but my parents were in the US foreign service, so I grew up as an American embassy Brad, traveling all over the world, living in different countries for two years, and then returning home here to the states for few months, and then being assigned to another country so back in the in the early sixties when I was overseas in elementary school, my classes were filled with kids from all over the world. Whoever had an embassy? They're all of their kids went to the same school as I did so I grew up in what you would call a multicultural environment. And if he were to open the door to my classroom and pop your head in, you would say this looks like a United Nations. Little kids because that's exactly what it was now when I would return home here to my own country, the United States I would be in either all black schools or black and white schools, meaning the still segregated or the newly integrated, and at that time there was not the. The amount of diversity that I had overseas all kinds of different colors and Ethel's etc like we have today. If you walk into a classroom so I was I was baffled why people could not get along it was it was beyond me, and then you had an incident, didn't you? In in in the Boy Scouts or Cub Scouts in the cub scouts. Yeah I I was the only black scout and a parade. And everything was going fine. You know sidewalks lined with nothing but white people and we reached a point in the parade where I began getting hit with bottles and Soda, pop cans, and Ross how old were you I was ten. I was in fourth grade. And it was not by everybody, just a small group of people mixed in with the crowd standing together maybe four or five people, I was so naive that when I was getting hit I thought those people over there did not like the scouts. I I had no idea I was a target. Until my mother and cut master and troop leader all came running over, and they huddled over me to protect me in escort me out of the danger. That I realized I was the only target and I didn't understand it, and they were not explaining it to me. This can say it'll be okay. It'll be okay. Will move along. And so when I got home that day, a mother and father were cleaning me up and putting bandaids on me and asking me you know. How did you fall down and get all scraped up high, told mining fall down. I told them precisely what had happened. And for the first time in my life. My parents sat me down and explained racism to me. At, the age of ten believe it or not, I had never heard the word racism I had no reason to. I've been all over the world and got along with everybody. There wasn't a racism. So, I did not believe my parents when they were telling me this. Because my ten year old brain could not wrap itself around the idea. That someone who never seen these spoken to me or knew anything about knee would wanNA hurt me for no other reason than the color of my skin, it made absolutely no sets, and about a month and a half later. Martin Luther King was assassinated that same year nine, hundred, sixty eight. And I remember I. Remember the riots. and. Then I realized my parents had not lied to me. This thing called racism does exist. But why do people hate each other because of skin color? How can you hate me when you don't even know me? And now for the next fifty two years I've been looking for the answer to that question, and who better to ask than someone who would go so far as to join an organization whose hope premise has been hating those who don't look like them, and who don't believe in what they stand for so I've been seeking out white supremacist and people like that from various groups Google Plan Neo Nazis et. You, say you you've been seeking them out was the first time. How did it happen? What was it serendipitous if you can call it that that you met someone from the Con-? Did you seek to find that? It was a serendipitous, because I bought a lot of books. I have a vast library starting from when I was a kid. On the ku-klux-klan. On white supremacy, black supremacy, antisemitism, the Nazis in Germany, the Neo Nazis over here, just trying to learn what is his ideology? Come from I. Know You're not born with it. So. Where did you get it? Where is it going? How can they be addressed? And none of my books answered it so I graduated from college with my degree in music, and I was playing in a band country music had made a comeback in this country, so as a full time musician wanted to work in the country, and I enjoyed country music, so I joined a country band, only black guy in the band, and usually the only black guy where we would perform. We were performing in a bar in town Frederick Maryland. and. Just finished playing a set of music taking a break. And I was walking to go sit down. At a table, my bandmates when a white gentleman came up behind me and wrapped his arm around my shoulder. And now this bar was an all white bar and I mean that black people could not billion I mean that they did not go in by their own choice because they were not welcome there, so I didn't know anybody in this bar. I'm wondering who who's touching me where my bandmates 'cause. They're all ahead of me, so I turned around and it was this guy. And he said he enjoyed the music, shook his hand and thanked him, and then he made the remark that he'd never seen a black man. Play piano like Jerry Lewis before. And I was not offended but I was. Kinda surprised because this guy was older than me and I thought he should, he would have known the black origin, but Jerry Lee Lewis style piano playing. Yeah, just for listeners who don't know Jerry Lewis musical inspiration. In the nineteen fifties was African. Americans absolutely he got his staff and listening. He'll tell you himself. He's a very good friend of mine. He told me you know he you know. He listened to the Black Blues. Boogie woogie piano players, and that's where rock and roll and rockabilly came from while I, tried to explain that to this guy, and he was incredulous a. he did not believe me even if I told him that. That I know Jerry Lee and he's told me himself. He didn't believe that either, but he was fascinated enough with me that he wanted to buy me a drink now I don't drink alcohol back to his table and had a cranberry juice, and he took his glass, and I think my glasses cheered me, and he says you know this is the first time I've ever sat down with. The black man had a drink. And now I'm wondering like know you know what's going on here. So innocently asked my supply and at I. He didn't answer me I asked him again, and he had a friend sitting next to him. Who elbowed him? Tell him tell him tell him and that's tell me. He looked back at me just straight and narrow, and he said I'm a member of the KU. Klux Klan well. I burst out laughing because now I did not believe him, you know. Why would a clansman come to embrace me and praise my my you know piano abilities and WanNa? Buy me a drink. It does not work that way I'd never read any similar story in any of my plan books right, so I'm laughing at him like he's joking. He went inside. His pocket produced his wallet. And handed me his plan membership card. And I recognize the Ku Klux Klan in Sydney, which is a red circle with a white cross and red blood drive in the center with across and stop laughing. But we had a great conversation was very friendly. You know and he. He gave me his phone number and want me to call him whenever I was to return to this bar. Does he want to bring his friends? Meaning plans and women to see this black guy play piano like Jerry and I call him every six weeks, and he comedy bring people and they would watch. Watch me, play, and on the breaks lose table to say hello I would make some of them. Some of them would see me coming and get up and scurry off to some of the part of the room. They want nothing to do with me other than to watch me, which was fine with the ones that hung out curious I've made them and talk with them and. I quit that band shortly thereafter. I lost track of the guy, but then later it dawned on me Daryl you know. There's the answer to your question fell right into your lap. There's a certain deputy Ashley. You know I've been looking for this answer to my question since the age of ten. How can you hate me when you don't even know me and know book and no one had been able to provide it to me. Here a clansman falls right into my lap. WHO BETTER TO ASK? And so I scrambled around round round and found this guy's number. So you know what I'm going to buy the book on the plan on my talk to this Guy get to hook me up with the leader, and then I'll travel around the country and interview different plan leaders and members and find out answer my question. Put It all in the book where you feel safety at all. No, not really not really but. I think. Actually what it was is the fact that I I had been traveling so much. As a child. And, then now as an adult musician, performing all over this country, and around the world, and no matter how far away I've gone from my own country to the other side of the Earth at the end of the day, I have come to one inclusion that we all are human beings. We all want the same things. Have, you been successful. Absolutely absolutely you know. There have been over two hundred people who have announced that ideology and left those organizations or turn their lives now I have robes and hoods Nazi. flowerbeds, and all kinds of stuff given to me by active members. You know who who were active when I met them, and now they have. They have announced that. I'm curious. What do they say to you when they decide to give up and give you that robes? What do they say? They said they were wrong. I asked him. You know during the first interviews hockey, you hey, you don't even you don't even know me. All you see is the color of my skin if somebody's in front of you. And tells you that you're a criminal that you lack intelligence richer lazy and prefer to be on welfare. Would, you say that what that person is telling? You is offensive. Absolutely, but here's the difference. Am I offended absolutely not. Not because with the person is saying is true, but I'm not offended because with the person sane is ally at the end when they renounced this. The Essay Durga no I was wrong. I! Don't have any reason to hate you. You know because what's happening here is we're having a conversation? They've never done that before. They've had debates. Or they've had clashes. Instead of know I would disagree with them, but instead of you know clashing with them, I would listen because they're learn. Everybody wants to be heard. I would bet them get it all out, and then I would. I would explain things to them from my perspective. They would go home and they would think you know. What that Black Guy said was right, but but he's black. He's black, but he's right, but he's glad. You know so it was a cognitive dissonance thing going on. They had to make up their own mind. Do I continue living ally over? Do I believe the truth and turn my life around? So that's why I say I planted the seed. I nourished it, and they converted or convinced themselves. You, said something that I think goes right to the heart of finding common ground, which is the people that you spoke to the racists who who you talk to had never had a discussion with a black person. They only had a debate about black people or confrontation with right, and so how important is! Conversation discussions finding common ground. Is, absolutely important and the common ground. Is this all right? Do you look for things that you have in common for example? I know neither one of you to be involved in white supremacist groups, but if I would ask either one of you. Do you believe that we need better education for kids? You would say yes. Do you believe that we need to address the drug problem on the streets? Even say yes well guess what they believe the same thing so now you've got something in common with the plan. So, we may not agree on racial things, but I find things that we have in common drugs do not discriminate. They will take anybody out just like this coronavirus covid nineteen. It doesn't care if you're a clansman, not see a black person the Muslim a gay a Jew, whatever it will take you out. All right so you find these things in common and discuss them and let them see they begin seeing the humanity in you when to enemies are talking conversing. They're not fighting. They're talking. They may be yelling and screaming, perhaps at some points, but at least they're talking is when the conversation ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence, we're speaking with Daryl Davis on. Let's find common ground. I'm Ashley I'm Richard More in a minute? This is a special episode of. How do we fix it I'm? Richard Davies Jim plan to be back next week. With a new show on innovation with author journalist Matt Ridley now more of the let's find common ground interview with musician and activist Daryl Davis Right now. There's outrage over recent killings. There have been many shootings and deaths of black men in recent years. A times like these is easier to do your work, or is it harder to have those conversations? IS A. A bitter sweet time. The bitter thing is that we have to have those conversations because yet. Another black is been shot. For no reason WHO's unarmed. That's the better part, but the sweet part is. It brings people together. And we we have the opportunity to address these things, but we have to do it the right way. We have been addressing this problem. The wrong way for decades, right? IGNORANCE BREEDS FEAR! We fear those things we don't understand. If we do not keep that fear in check. That fear in turn will escalate. It will grow. Like weeds. If you do not keep that hatred in check that hatred in turn will escalate and breed destruction. So, what is the right way to respond to this hatred? This fear? Don't address the hatred. Don't address the fear. Go to the source. When you find out you have bone cancer in your arms, say you don't put a topical cream on top of your arm or bandaids. You gotta go down to the bone with the cancer is. We have to go to the source of the racism which is ignorance and there is a cure for ignorance. That cure is education. Education and exposure. We're doing this interview in the weeks after the outcry over the Ahmad. Killing in Georgia. Didn't you feel a sense of of anger of even fury when you first saw what had happened to this? Does man of course absolutely but. What is putting anger out GonNa do. I'm not saying. Blow it off by any means it has to be addressed, but let's take that energy that ender and converted towards something positive. That can come out of it. And that's focusing on curing the 'cause. Ignorance had these people got to know one another? Perhaps, that would not have happened. Had these people learned a little bit more about humanity. Educate them. Maybe that would not have happened. So, let's focus on those things your work as an educator and teach you. How just on it here in the US, have you? You've worked in other countries. Can you talk about that sure? I've spoken in Israel spoken in Belgium, Germany Slovakia and India. And each place has different different issues unlike us with us, so black and white issue in India is the caste system you know the lighter skinned as opposed the darker skinned people and in in Israel of course is the Palestinians and the Jewish people in the Arab? People are places like Lebanon is Christians. Muslims in Ireland is the Catholics and the Protestants. But again at the end of the day. Is. Ignorance is coming together finding that common ground and having those conversations. My my favorite quip. Ball time. Is By the American author Mark Twain Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it solely on these accounts, broad wholesome charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth All one's lifetime. Had I not had all that exposure as a child. Would I be doing this today? Maybe not. What do you do in your work? Do you go to colleges two schools? Are you asked to speak at different events and Who Asks You you I. Never I never thought about that I would ever be lecturers that traveling the country talking about this. I just done this for my own. Knowledge my own satisfaction of finding out. How can you hate me? Don't even know me I'm putting in a book. My Book became the first book written by a black author on the plan. But who do I speak to audiences. Predominantly colleges and universities. Often do corporations like for diversity training companies I do civic organizations I speak at a lot of churches and synagogues, sometimes police departments I give anywhere from sixty. Maybe eighty lectures a year all over all over the world a lot around this country. I'm curious just talking a family over the years. What what if your own family and friends set you about your work? What do they think? Well. My friends yeah. Do they think you're crazy where they know it so it? So. They understand me, but the people who. You know don't know me and have not had the opportunity like you all to to interview me or talk with me or or hear this interview some some of them jump to conclusions and jump to the wrong conclusion and I get it you know they. They see a picture of a black man shaking hands with somebody in a Robin Hood. You know if I saw that I'd have a visceral reaction but me. I would say what going on here and I would read the back story. Some people don't read the back story. And they they draw their own narrative and it's wrong. You've done this work for for many years. Convinced others to do this work alongside you. Yes there have been there have been some of WHO who wanted to do this work. I get emails all the time from people who say hey. How can I do this Some follow up on it. Some don't and then, of course there are those who you call formers. They were former members of these organizations. Some come out with me and educate people. Because, they feel that they need to repair the damage that they did when they were in those organizations. What I see a lot in my professional groups I'm in as younger people of Color say twenties to mid thirties sort of the millennial generation. They have had it with accommodating white people right that like. Why should I go out on a limb and do this emotional war of explaining to a white person? What my experience of the world is like? You should be meeting me where I am I. Get that I get the question all the time. It's not my job. Teach them Outta behave. We know what? If they don't, learn Then we then we're just GONNA. Enable and continue the cycle. It's all our jobs to educate one another. When we need to get rid of this attitude I I understand the frustration. I understand the impatience. Like how much do we have to put up with this while you know what? The civil war ended in eighteen, sixty five. And we're still going through the stuff with still being held down. and. You know so. How long is it? GonNa take while maybe if we we change our approach because whatever it was were doing for the last hundred fifty years has not worked. So maybe we need to spend the time educating one another. Let's get rid of this concept. I'm not my brother's keeper. Let's become our brother's keeper, and they'd we all can be happy. And what about all of us? No matter what the color of our skin or the place that we come from? What can we do? Our society our country. Can only become one of two things. One can become that which we sit back and let it become. Or Two it can become that which was stand up, make it. And so we have to ask ourselves question, do I want to sit back and see what my country becomes or do. I want to stand up and make country become what I WANNA see. And I've chosen the ladder. So? You have to get into the thick of it. And you can get this stuff out of the textbook. You gotta go there and be in the thick of it. You have to understand empathy and understanding you know where a lot of this is coming from and be willing to rise above all the negativity all the insults all the S. if you spend five minutes just five minutes with your worst enemy, you will find something in common. Efforts been ten minutes. You'll find even more. And this is why this is so important. We have to learn how to have. HOW HAVE CIVIL DISCOURSE? In and again. Yes, we are going to debate things because we're not gonNA agree on everything, but that's not framed as debate. Let's frame it as a conversation. Because when you say the word debate, people get their wall up. You know they're ready to. Brecca help bring it on kind of thing. To Talk about it. You know you know. How do you feel about this you know, and then you listen to how you feel. That's a conversation you'd know you. You're challenging one another, but when you use the word debate. It has a little more of a of a aggressive. Tone to it than just having a conversation on on different points of view. That's a that's a great way to end. Daryl Davis thanks very much for joining us on. Let's find common ground offense you both very much for having me I really really appreciate it and I. Think Hope we've found some common ground through the three of us. Daryl, Davis on the new podcast series. Let's find common grant. Here more shows at Common Ground Committee Dot, Org. You're listening to a special episode of. How do we fix it? We Return with our podcast next week on innovation. Our producer is Miranda Schaefer. Show is a production of Davies content. We make podcast causes and companies. Check us out at Davies content, dot, com and thanks for listening. To. This podcast is part of the democracy group.

Daryl Davis United States Richard Davies George Floyd Common Ground Committee Ashley Tight Minneapolis murder Ku Ku Klux Klan Georgia Common Ground Committee Dot lynch Jerry Lee Lewis Black Blues United Nations Martin Luther King Jerry Lewis officer Klux Klan
Pushkin Honors Juneteenth

Broken Record

27:50 min | 3 months ago

Pushkin Honors Juneteenth

"Pushkin hi listeners. If jacob weisberg here i'm the ceo of pushkin industries. At pushkin. we think of june team as an opportunity to reflect on the past and think about the future. How do we build a more just and equitable society. We strive to make podcasts. That helped to answer that question. And in honor of juneteenth were highlighting two of them be anti-racist is hosted by dr abram ex candy an author professor activist and historian his book how to be an anti-racist has become a guide for anyone interested in dismantling the structures that racism creates the podcast. Give him a chance to dive. Deep into issues like immigration sports in voting rights with guests like the castro jamal hill. You're going to hear an excerpt from a conversation. Dr candy had recently with author and political analyst. Heather seemed to be they focus on the economic costs of racism for everyone. Not just those in black or brown communities and how diversity can lead to economic prosperity for all. Then you'll hear a truly remarkable story of bridging racial divide. Daryl davis black jazz musician. Who is convinced. Hundreds of kkk members to leave the clan. It all started with one conversation anna jazz club because i was interested in understanding people with wildly different views. Daryl appeared a slight change of plans. A podcast hosted by dr. Maya shankar shankar is a cognitive scientist. Who's fascinated by what happens when we find ourselves at the break of change and she's got a knack for getting people including hillary clinton and tiffany haddish to open up to her. Here's dr kennedy on. Be anti racist welcomed to be antiracist in action podcast where we discuss how to diagnose dismantle and abolish racism how to save humanity from the divisiveness of racist ideas and the destructiveness of racist power policy. Had a free humanity through the unity of anti-racist ideas and the constructiveness of anti-racist power and policy won't be antiracist. We discussed how to make the impossible possible how to bring in to be what modern humans have never know adjust an equitable world. You ready. Let's roll in the nineteen thirties and forties. The united states went on a nationwide building boom of public amenities for by tax dollars. Which in montgomery alabama included the oak park pool which was the grandest one for miles except the oak park pool was for whites only when a federal court finally deemed this unconstitutional. The reaction of the town council was swift. They decided they would drain the public pool rather than let black families swim to. They never rebuilt the pool. Racism has cost for everyone. Heather mcgee is an expert in economic and social policy and the author of the bestselling book. The some of us would racism. Cost everyone in how we can prosper together. Heather explodes one of the greatest racial mitts. That white people lose as people of color game. She shows that racism wins. We all lose. Heather is one of america's sharpest thinkers the former president of the inequality focused take demos and his drafted legislation testified before congress in contributed regularly to new shows including. Nbc's meet the press. She now chairs the board of color of change. The nation's largest online racial justice organization. I sat down with heather mcghee recently to learn how by investing in each other we can all achieve better jobs better health better democracy better schools better neighborhoods for our kids and so much more. Heather is always. It's truly an honor to speak with you your book. The some of us is the type of book that i learned from that. I think many americans many people around the world can learn from. I wrote this book. Because i felt like we were missing something. In the great pursuit of a society. It should be to have progress to have. People have less wont and more joy people to have more of the fruits of economic progress in technological progress and for our problems to be solved generation after generation rank and it felt like bad progress the slowing down slash reversing when some americans imagine the transformation of this country. They imagined that they're gonna lose if we actually create an equitable and just anti-racist america and it seems as you've written that's based on a zero sum myth so clear in economic policy to go out on this quixotic jeremy ways to find the answer to the question of why can't we seem to have nice things. And what are the roots of our dysfunction and it's there that i came upon this paradigm of the zero sum. It's a term that means there's no such thing as mutual progress when you have people who are in a competition with one another team a scores one more point team be scores one less point. The points will always add up to zero positive on one side negative on the other progress for team a has to come at the expense of team being. There's limited or fixed pie and that idea resonated so deeply with me. It's sorta gave a name a description to something. I'd sensed my whole life. This fear that when white supremacy falls that the world will become one that people should fear therefore racism is really great for white people really terrible for people of color and so their self interest in preserving racism at all costs. and it's the at all cost piece. That really felt so important for me to lay out. What are the costs of racism to our entire society. What exactly is the price. White people are willing to pay to cheap the system as it has been and once i started looking the list just kept growing and that made it clear to me that we have these self interested elites packaging marketing selling zero sum y to most white americans and they're doing it for their own profit but our side when we only talk about racism as something. That's good for white people kind of like help it out a little bit right. You're my provocation agitation. That made me feel like okay. Maybe i do have something to add to this conversation was. We haven't told the full story of what it has cost this entire country you were specifically writing about white folks who think that they're gonna lose but as a man of color reading it. I also think men of color to have bought into this myth of the zero sum. And i think that as they've seen women of color organizing and advocating and in some cases rising they too have felt threatened as if they're losing. Yeah but back to white folks. This is what i've been sort of saying. I'm just that white. Americans typically compare their locked to people of color and so in other words if their school has more resources in a way. Their child's school is almost like a first class school. They're like well if we create equity. I'm gonna be back and coach. Yeah i don't want that. I'm gonna lose my kids gonna leave but it seems to me that white america should be assessing themselves from other white people in the west. Yeah and when they make that comparison that's when they can see actually what they don't have how that's right and in fact maybe in other societies in the western world. Everybody's just in ll last. There's no little curtains that the flight attendant move over and everyone gets food right. Everyone has allegro. Everybody gets to bring a bag this really comes from his a feature of how brutally hierarchical our society is in the first chapter of the some of us. I go back in our history. I am. I am like somebody else here. This conversation not in the story. But i felt like i had to go to the beginning to find out where this zero sum world view in the slide came from. Who's interested served. And why sort of reanimated generation after generation and as it turns out it was created as a way to sort of discipline white europeans in the colonial era to be satisfied with their lot in a society where wealth was still quite concentrated. And where because of chattel slavery in the plantation. Economy there actually wasn't a lot of room a white person who was not a plantation owner. Their labor wasn't needed in the southern economy. What do we need you for right. This myth of white supremacy was sold to white masses. So that they could have a forces. Wbz voice said the psychological wages of whiteness rather than material wages and the psychological ways. Were knowing always that in a deeply unable economy they could nonetheless count on being more than and better than black. Now hang on for the amazing story of daryl davis from slight change of plans so i was riding in my car. I'm driving and this clansman was sitting in my passenger seat and we got on the on the topic of crime and he made the mention that people are born with a gene. That makes them a violent and i said look. I'm is black as anybody you've ever seen. I have never done a drive by or a carjacking. How do you explain that. This man did not hesitate one second. He answered me instantly. He said you gene is latent. Hasn't come out yet. That's daryl davis a blues musician and yeah you heard him right. He's driving in his car with a member of the ku klux klan speechless. I was dumbfounded. And he's sitting next to me. Wall smug insecure. You see you have nothing to say. And i thought about it for a moment rather than attacking. You say it's not true. It's not true. I said to him. I said you know why people have gene within them that make them serial killers and he. So why would you say that. I said well face it name me three black serial killers you thought about it. You couldn't name anybody you couldn't do it. I rattled off charles. Manson jeffrey dahmer. Henry lee lucas john wayne gracie ted bundy david berkowitz son of sam albert. Desalvo's the boston strangler. And i said son. You are a serial killer. And he daryl. I've never killed anybody. I said you're genus layton. Hasn't come out yet. He said well that's stupid. And i said well duh. It is stupid and he got very very quiet. And i could tell that the gears in his head spinning superfast by burning a hole in there and then he on later he changed the subject but within five months. This guy with the ku klux twin. Since that car ride thirty years ago. Daryl davis has gone on to convince dozens of people to leave the ku klux klan. Convincing someone else to change their mind. Their view of reality is one of the most elusive coveted types of change. Which is why. Daryl story so improbable. So how does he do it. I s shankar as a cognitive scientist. I've always been fascinated by how we change our minds and why we change our minds on the show i'll have intimate conversations with people who've navigated extraordinary change and hopefully their stories will get us to think differently about change in our own lives. This is a slight change of plans. Act daryl didn't set out to change anyone's mind. He was mostly just focused on his music but one night his life took an unexpected turn when he was playing a show at a bar called the silver dollar lounge. Silver dollar lounge at the time was an all white lounge. And i say that not meaning that black people could not go win but meaning that they did not go in by their own choice because they were not welcomed there somewhere where you're not welcome and alcohol is being served sometimes. It's not make for a good combination especially when you're outnumbered so we took a break. After the first set and i was walking across the dance floor to go sit with the bandmates when somebody approached me from behind and put their arm around my shoulder. Not i know anybody in this place. I'm turning around to see who's touching me and this gentleman maybe fifteen eighteen years older than me and he's all excited he says man. I show like your piano. Playing this is the first time i've ever heard a black man play piano like jerry lee lewis and i told him i said well jerry. We got it from the same place. I did from black blues and boogie. Woogie piano players are not enough. I never heard no black men play like that you. Julia invented that style. I said look. I know jerry lee lewis. He's a good friend of mine. He's told me himself. We're hearing how to play the died in by that either but he was so fascinated with me that he wanted me to come back to his table. He's gonna buy me a drink. So i don't drink but i have a cranberry juice he bought. It paid the waitress and then he took his glass and he clinked my glass and cheered me and then he announces you know. This is the first time. I ever sat down with the black man and how to drink so innocently. I asked him why and he didn't answer me. At first. i asked him again and his buddies sitting next to him elbowed him said talent talent and the guy looked at me and said i'm a member of the ku-klux-klan while i burst out laughing at him because now i do not believe him. I thought he was. You know putting the joke me. I'm laughing. He goes inside his pocket pulls out his wallet flips through it and hands me his clan membership card. I recognize the plan insignia which a red circle with a white cross and a red blood drop in the center of the cross. And i'm thinking to myself my goodness this is for real so i stopped laughing but he was very friendly and very appreciative of my music and art excited. He gave me his phone number to you know. Call him whenever. I was to return to this bar with this band and so i call him every six weeks and say hey man. I'm down there at the silver dollar this weekend. Coming out ise. It's so nonchalantly. Like so i called the guy. It is remarkable that you call this person. And i don't think i'm alone in struggling to understand what was going through through your mind at this moment. If someone told me that they were in the freaking clan. I would certainly not call them back in fact i probably just flee the scene and i think this is for pretty good reasons. I was questioning myself. What the heck am. I doing sitting here with clansman but the guy was friendly. He disputed the things that i had in mind of the image over typical clansman and he wanted to share my music with some of his fellow klansman clans women and they get on the dancefloor and dance to arm use it. They didn't come in robeson. Drake came in. You know regular clothes. This goes on for a year. An entire year. Darrell would play a gig at this bar and he would invite clan members to watch him play. This is one of those things. That makes daryl so unusual. I mean for me. A huge part of what makes someone who they are is their belief system and so if we share the same taste in music. That's fine that's great. But if i then find out there a flagrant racist that's going to fully eclipse everything else about them. So how sterile pass that. He says it's not like that. He wasn't looking past it he wanted to learn from it. See darryl had spent his early childhood overseas in a school he describes as a united nations for little kids race was always in the background but when he moved back to the states when he was ten he couldn't escape racism and ever since then he's been interested in why people hate. I had had an experience at the age of ten where some racist people threw rocks and bottles at me during a parade in which i was the only black participant and never having had this happened to me before. I was perplexed as to why we're doing this and when later my parents explained that it was racism. My ten year old brain could not process the idea that someone who had never seen me before who had never spoken with me and you nothing about me would want to inflict pain upon me for no other reason than the color of my skin. You know that just did not compete with me while later. When i realized this was true there are people like that. I formed a question in my mind. Which was how can you hate me. When you don't even know me and some people will just say well daryl. That's just the way it is when it's not just the way it is. There has to be a reason behind it. Well it's always been that way. That was not good enough for me. I want to get to the nucleus of it. So darryl dedicates himself to answering this question. He devours books about race and racism. He reads nearly every book that exists on the clan. But he's still unsatisfied so he decides he wants to write his own book about the clan. All the books written on the clan except for mine have been written by white authors. You know white authors obviously have an easier time getting in contact with the plan sitting down and not fearing any ramifications or whatever or they might even join the klan undercover a clansman would have a different perspective sitting there talking to a black person then he would white person and how how do you feel that perspective would have been different. Because he's sitting there telling the person that he hates why he hates them so now he's having to face me and face those same questions. You know that that somebody would ask or even different questions that are that are white. Interviewer journalist would not ask because they don't think of him because they don't feel the things the same things that i feel as daryl starts researching for his book. It suddenly dawned on him he already knows someone in the clan that guy from the silver dollar lounge so he goes on a mission to track him down. It takes a while but eventually he finds the guys address and i knocked on the door unannounced and he opened the door and sees. Because daryl what are you doing here and look. You looked up and down the hallway to see if i brought anybody with me so it was more him than who was intimidated than me and when when he stepped out of his apartment i stepped in so he turns around back in so now we're standing inside his apartment and he says you know what's going on you still playing what's going on i say i i'm so playing but listen i need to talk to you about the clan. He says the plan. I said yeah he goes. Well i quit. I quit a while back as well. Where's your clan stuff. These as they came and got it. And i said what do you mean they came and got you robin hood. You don't you own it and he explained to me when you join the plan if you have the money to pay for it you can purchase your robin hood and it's yours to keep forever. If you cannot afford it at the time you can still take it home with you but you put a little extra money in every time you pay your dues until you pay it off so lately kind of thing does our financial aid system within the clan love it yes exactly equal opportunity for everyone who's racist absolutely so anyway. He said that they came and got it but when they came to get it he could not find the mask and he's he has since founded and he needed to return it. And so what. Can i say it. So he goes down. The hallway comes back in hands. Me the mask and i said to him i said. Do you know roger kelly. he was. Yeah roger was my grand dragon. I know him. And i said well. Listen i need you to hook me up with mr kelly. I want you to interview him. A book from the clan. Now let me explain how the hierarchy of the plan works. You understand these terms We would call a state leader of governor. They call that the grand dragon. A mayor that person's known as the salt at cyclops. Anybody in the great level is important. Seventies names this is truly a yeah but see. that's also what attracts people because the titles feel important. It's a sense of self-importance you know. Because they're not getting that from the society in which they live so you know this brotherhood this gang if you will give them those things. So at the time. Roger kelly was grand dragon. State leader from maryland. So so i tell you what you need to return this mass right. He said yeah. I said give me. Roger kelly's phone number and his address and i'll go two hundred four you and he snapped right out of my hand and said no way and so i begged and pleaded with them while he finally gave it to me on the condition that i not reveal mr kelly where i got it and he warned me darryl do not go to. Roger kelly's house roger. Kelly will kill you. And i said well. That's that's the whole reason why i need to talk to mr. Kelly i know why would he kill me with what is going on in his mind when he sees me. I have to understand this. You did realize that you might not get the answer to the question. If in fact the dangerous happened. I write a true. This is true. But i but i i was thinking that i would. I would prevail. I'm the u turn optimist. If you will well. I am not the eternal optimist and darryl's decision feels incredibly risky but anyway he has the secretary mary call and schedule the interview and he gives her one important instruction tell him. I'm blacked and see if he would consent to sitting down and giving her boss an interview. I figured you know he might pick up in my voice. That i'm black and i didn't want him to hang up the phone. Am i talking to you. In my whole project would end it before it ever got started. Roger kelly agrees to meet for an interview one evening at a nearby motel. Daryl gets to the motel early with mary. He's not sure. If roger will even agree to step foot in the room but if he does. Darryl wants to be hospitable. He asked mary to philip. The ice bucket. And by some sodas and then they start arranging the room. There's not much to arrange. There's the ice bucket a table two chairs and darryl's canvas bag which has his tape recorder and a bible. The plan claims to be a christian organization and they plan that the bible preachers racial separation. Now in my reading of the bible. I have never seen anything like that in there so i wanted to be able to pull up my bible and handed to him and say here mr kelly. Please show me chapter and verse where it says. Blacks and whites must be separate. So i'm prepared right right on time right to the minute. Five fifteen knock knock knock on the door in wants what is known as the grand nighthawk nighthawk means bodyguard security. He's dressed in military camouflage and he has that clan patch on his chest on one side on the other side of his chest or the initials k. k. k. and embroidered on his cap said knights of the ku-klux-klan and on his hip he had a semiautomatic handgun and holster. He comes in mr. Kelly is walking directly behind him carrying a briefcase and a dark blue suit and tie and the nighthawk turned the corner and saw me and just froze in his tracks. So mr kelly slammed into his back and knock this guy forward and now that they both are stumbling around trying to regain their balance and they're like looking all around the room on. Something's not right here. And i'm just sitting at the table looking at their faces and i could read their faces like a billboard Their faces were saying to me The district give us the wrong room number. Did we misunderstand something or an ambush. So i saw the apprehension and so i stood up and just played both of my palms to show. I had nothing in my hands. And i walked forward. I extended my right hand. And i said hi mr kelly. I'm darrell davis I hope both of these conversations inspire thinking and conversation around issues of race you can find more episodes of be anti-racist a slight change of plans wherever you get your podcasts.

oak park pool Daryl davis Heather daryl davis daryl jacob weisberg pushkin industries dr abram ex candy castro jamal hill Dr candy anna jazz club Maya shankar shankar tiffany haddish dr kennedy america Heather mcgee heather mcghee ku Daryl Wbz
EP. 397 - The Lynching Of George Floyd ft. Daryl Davis

Mark Bell's Power Project

1:50:42 hr | 1 year ago

EP. 397 - The Lynching Of George Floyd ft. Daryl Davis

"KTAR project crew, welcome the today show. This episode was recorded on June eleventh, and it is not a repeat of the previous episode, although we did just have him on recently just a matter of weeks ago, but today we are on with Daryl Davis Davis is the gentlemen that has converted over two hundred clansmen to turn in their robes and turn a new leaf per se. But today we actually brought him back because we wanted to. Get his thoughts on the current events today. What he calls the George Floyd Lynching, he explained to us what lynching actually meant, and why he believes that George Floyd was not killed. He was not murdered. He was lynched by that police officer, so we really got just we talked about that. We talked about just a whole gamut of things regarding to a racist racist issues, racial issues and we really think he isn't going to like this episode going to try to get out of your way as soon as possible, but really really quick If you guys missed the call in show the other day we had an absolute blast. We had our boy Jesse verdict on. And we took calls. We took your calls. It was a it was A. it was a lot of fun as a new experience as a new feature that we hope to do a lot more often, but if you guys did miss out on that one. Make sure you text anything you can text like Jesse. Verdict says you can text the word farts to two, zero, six, seven, three, seven, seven, three, six, nine, and every time we go live and were accepting calls. You guys will get a text notification. Right on your phone to let you know. Hey, we're live and they'll be Lincoln there and you guys will actually. Actually get to join, or actually you'll get to listen to the conversation and then select whether or not you would like to be on Ho- put on hold so that we can talk to us on air, and then lastly mark. Bell DOT COM a free thirty day trial is available for everybody listening right now from now all the way to the end of June. You. Guys can gain access to the entire website that includes the paid version and the paid premium version where they have a virtual scoreboard, so you can physically or digitally put points on the scoreboard every single time you do a workout to help, keep you on track help, keep you motivated, and just getting more and more bitterest in you can also trained with team super training, so if you are not anywhere near West Sacramento. We can bring the gym to you by showing you guys. The exact program that everybody at the gym is doing again. That's Mark Bell. Dot Com please take advantage of that and please do so before the end of June because after that the free thirty day. Will be over. That's it for me, so ladies and gentlemen. Please enjoy this episode with the one and only. Daryl Davis guys doing today. Good. Yeah, doing awesome. got in a ten minute walk turned into fifteen minutes and I got some some coffee this morning. Just over achieving all over. You know it's funny as I was planning on coming in a little bit early to get in a good walk, you know, do some research some more research. Our guest and I actually woke up with a pretty bad case of Vertigo. Weird God I got up and I felt right back over the tappan before I can deal with it button. It's sucks I. Don't like it, so I took it a little bit slower today, so. Maybe tomorrow. What triggers that no idea when I went to the doctor when I like the first time I got it when I just told you that. You're weird when I was like probably like fourteen or fifteen, there's just got a couple of screws loose and like. Isn't that really bad? We tighten these things up. Yeah for real. I'm like. Can we get a get a drill in there and start screwing these screws back in? You know my grandma had vertigo has go, and apparently crystals in the ear or some so like what they did, and it didn't totally click here, but it helped. It's like they. Like her one way, and then shift, or the and they were, they were trying to like. Get everything to kind of stabilizing. Yeah, no, not not none of that for me. Okay? No, because what they? Also, tell you to do is like Oh, get on the edge of your bed and then just let your head fall back off of the thing and I'm like. Do you want me to get so dizzy that throw up everywhere like no thanks so I didn't yeah, but anyway. Enough about me. I don't think I ever experienced anything like that for I. Know I've gotten like. Hit really hard before and how you know and kind of saw stars and got look Galluzzi but. Yeah I never I mean I guess maybe sometimes working out. We could do a heavyset, and then you get done with the set and you Kinda feel like Whoa. I felt that before, but I think that was more like just the electrolytes. You not having enough. You know salt. That's the best way I can equate it to. That makes sense to a lot of people have ever played the labyrinth game. It's like a marble and you have to balance the platform to get like to not fall in the whole basically. It's like that, but that's the ground in somebody's check this out and they turn both knobs, and they just throw the like just weird like inception. Fighting and they're like yeah, going upside down and it's like when you drank way too much, and you're like I could totally make it across the room fine. Notice how Niane yeah, and you go to get up and like a whole rooms. Kinda, that's exactly what it's like. It makes sense yeah. Oh Man coheres having a good steak lately. Hell, yeah, time I cooked up to rabbis last night some Piedmont realize. And I've been I've been chopping him up. Man I've been going with the the Chop Chop Cook up two of them. Eight about half of that, and then maybe like an hour and a half when by eight the other? Two nights ago, boy at one last night, but it's always nice when you can eat two steaks tonight. It always feels so good. There's something different about it. Yeah, I, know. I had a couple of the the one pound ground beef packets and They came free back in the day when they were out for free. Like for every order, so they do do that again. Please take advantage, but like I. I don't want to take it for granted, but I underestimated that their ground beef also has a different taste to it. It tastes really good so I've been back on Monster Mash this week. And it's it's Freakin party every single time that I get to indulge in Piedmontese ground beef. Don't sleep on those sliders either the slider. I. We ordered some Thai food couple of days ago and The DOOR DASH people. They only sent like half the order. And so I, just said everybody relax. Everybody? Calm Down I'm GonNa Cook up some sliders since I cooked up sliders and. Save the day, but you know there's a lot of people are going to be outdoors a lot. Coming up and people are going to be barbecuing and stuff and so. Get yourself some Piedmont's burgers and hotdogs. This frigging hot dogs are legit. For more information, please over to Piedmontese Dot. com. That's P. I. E. D. M., O., N., T. E. S. E. DOT com at checkout enter Promo Code Power Project for twenty five percent off your order, and if your order is ninety nine dollars or more, you get free two day. Shipping excited for today's podcast fellows. Won't. Deed. We got our Boy Daryl Davison again. Today should be pretty cool. We just talked to him not too long, but. You know there's been some recent happening so like to talk to him and get some of his vantage point and see. What he thinks because I think that. This is a guy that has been thinking about this and studying. Racism for. Since, he was a kid since he was since he learned about it. Then I learned about it. Which is Kinda? Cool I learned about it. He was like. This is. A weird topic that somebody should. Continually investigate obviously, there's a lot of people that that look that have been looking into it for many years, but it's great to have somebody like that that we can We can call up and have a good conversation with yeah I think he's one of the most rational people to talk about. In terms, the situation to this this is the first time that like both are all groups that are having to deal with this or having to literally converse with each other. And then the you, you see a lot of I guess. You can't necessarily say it's a wrong way to talk about this, but you see a lot of ways that people are going about this and you're just like that could be done a little bit better, you know. Yeah, we'll look at some of the fallout that that people are having with. You know making comments that are. Against like this chain against this movement towards perhaps I don't want to say like getting rid of races and I. Don't know if that will ever happen, but I guess having better common ground, maybe and Getting to a better situation where we have equal opportunities. Equal rights in that fashion and There's some people that you know on. Social media have made statements and it's like. The. country. And actually in other parts of the world as well. They're not tolerate. Now should anymore whereas some people might believe. People aren't thinking that way anymore. They're they're they're get. They're cutting their ties and we're seeing left and right just. Yesterday the Mr, pickles and Davis. they? They decided to shut down I think the owner said something about he said. Black lives matter matters is becoming like the KKK. and. Who knows why made the statement? Maybe the guy felt he. Had A. I. Don't know. Maybe he felt. Maybe he felt that made sense. I'm sure he didn't say for no reason you know but whatever the reason is obviously, people aren't going to agree with stuff like that especially at the moment you know. and it just appears to me that. Black lives matters. as as a as an establishment is trying to draw attention to the fact that. There's been. A history of blacks being mistreated over and over and over again. And so it's just. It's a weird time because. You don't necessarily have to agree with everything that's going on, but I would say just until you get more information. There's no reason to be anti towards certain things, yeah! He is. Good Morning Good Morning Good Morning Darrow. Doing Hey. It's great to have you back on the show again and I appreciate at the end of the last show. You said Hey. We're all friends now, so if you want to call me, back up and have another conversation so here we are. We're added again. And I appreciate it very much. Thank you. I wanted to ask you. Some a lot has happened. Since last time we had a conversation, which wasn't even that long ago. House just. Two weeks ago or so. Do. You feel like Some of what's happening and some what's going on is. Even, though there's been a lot of things that have happened, that are unfortunate. Do! You feel like this is. Hard to say that we're good, but do you feel that? Maybe be to humanity's benefit in the long run? Yes. I do and I'll go ahead and say it's good. You know sure there's things that that could be. Could have gone better. But yes, in the long run is good. I feel that for the first time. We really beginning to turn the page I mean. We're not quite at the end of the book yet, but at least the pages turning. You know what I mean I mean we've all been said. White people involved with our civil rights. Things central bars, and of course on through the snow, the movement in the sixties with Martin Luther King. But for the first time we are seeing white people on Moss, a whole lot of them, recognizing especially young people, and even some little people recognizing what's going on and they're saying. Enough is enough. You know they're they. Get the empathy for it. And so that's. I think a bid. Contributing factor to what's going on and and people are finally starting to listen because now we have a collective voice of many different races when I don't use a racist. On one race, but you understand what I'm saying. Ethnicities people like that where we before it was predominantly black. People's ears were like this. Now they're pulling the plugs out and things beginning to happen a lot faster, and as always when you have these kinds of things, it causes a chain reaction. And other things began to to fall into place like for example when Martin. Luther King orchestrated the the bus boycott with a Rosa parks in nineteen, fifty five. You know that was targeting the Montgomery bus, lines. In Montgomery Alabama, it took a year. It took a year for them to find the come around because they're buses were riding around empty, because mostly black people rode the bus why people had cars, and so they're buses are riding around empty, and they're losing money putting gas in the bus. No passengers, etc, so they finally decided okay. We're going to change our policy. And when they did guess what it began changing all over Alabama and all the other southern states changed their bus policies lifted. Martin Luther King by become your next and other things begin to fall in the, but it's not just the bus, but other things so what we're seeing is. Not just some changes with with holiday address police fangs like usually it takes months for a police officer to be arrested or fired. You know you know if if he is because it rarely happens, but if it is, it takes quite a while and boom boom boom, having pretty quick. We're seeing that now. We're seeing the confederate stuff. Come down, etcetera etcetera, so these are residual effects and one of the things you know apart from from the white people join in the march. Is the the corona virus. That has kept a lot of people home. They can't go to work. Businesses are shut down. So their home, doing nothing so the come out. To the streets in March. That's why we're seeing not being. You know if it'd be nice if it was. On, a regular basis with no lockdown, but we had no lockdown. You would not have I. don't believe you would have the record. Number of people would be at their jobs but now that they're on. Lockdown or whatever they're coming out. Which is great? If of course it is a health risk, but. They they are passionate enough about something that has gone on way too long for four hundred years. They're willing to risk. Their health along with US viruses come in go. Every year we gotta virus whether it's the Hong Kong. Flu Asia Addict Flu. You know whatever whatever it is. It eventually goes away. It comes back again the next year. Racism has never gone away. And it's never been addressed in this record number, so there's you know this is a good thing. And I think all the things fell into place. That allowed this to happen. You mentioned turning the page. How do we you know kind of turn the page and start to get to the next chapter? What are some things that maybe? Are Not being talked about yet that you think might be important. Well of course. The police have just wants Malkin Bonnet of it, and of course you know people say well. You know the white people, do. Yes, they do you know and also in high numbers to, but so there, but is there a racial component? To the White Gillians the might be like a power component like I'm tough. You're not and you I say I'm GONNA. Blow you away. You know there's always a component. Get the deal with too, but but black have power components and the racial component, which is what we don't see unless they experienced it. So. Yes police reform have to happen. A lot of things have to happen. I. I'm really really glad that NASCAR took that step of a removing that flag. That is big and as a result, what does that flag to say inform? What does that flag represent in your opinion that confederate flag? What it represents to me is the promotion of slavery. The civil war was fought over slavery. Now I realize that a lot of people are ignorant. About their history. And they WANNA. Say It represents heritage. There are some people who know it represents eight area, and then there are those who really believe it represents era, digital and not eight. those are the ones who really need to study history they are. There are a lot of things a lot of things that the south has to be proud of. Slavery is not one of them. And the civil war was fought over slavery all this business about sovereignty of the states, and all that yeah sovereignty of the states of so they could maintain their slaves. You know that's like saying some. people took a take drugs and and at causes their heart to speed up and have Arrhythmia and they die. So medically speaking, the person died of heart, Arrhythmia heart attack, or whatever yet with at heart, attack was brought on by the drugs. So that you know, let's get to the source of why the heart sped up. So the civil war you can use whatever you wanna US sovereignty of the states that and the other but the bottom line slavery was at the core because people did not want to give up the free labor. They're making tons of money. Off Somebody else picking. Cotton Baco doing this doing that and not paying them. So you know that's that's that's where the money when you hear the term. Oh, he! He comes from old money. She comes from old money. That's what they're talking about. The money that that was generated off the backs of slaves. That's old money from way back. You know tobacco people. Cotton people from the south new money. Is Silicon Valley? So. Nobody wants to give up that that free labor and and that's why they fought. 'cause. You know when you have money, you don't WanNa. Give it up and that's a lot. You know why why people are are. are concerned about the election. Were they be able to keep their money? In. This guy has money. He represents money and look out for the rich et Cetera et Cetera is very important whether you like him or not. you want your money? Do you think? Do, you think Abraham Lincoln. Wanted to abolish slavery. Because, he wanted to be nice to black people, or do you think? There's underlying things that. Because I think that like in India's decision that people are gonNA make coming up. In voting. I think they're. They're trying to think of like you know who outwardly racists that I can make sure that I. Don't you know vote vote for and I? Think in the case Abraham Lincoln, he's always credited as. Being, this this great historical figure who did this thing to abolish slavery, but and I'm not gonna say that he's. He wasn't a great, or he wasn't a great president, but just knowing something about politics. Usually, there's a political reason on why people do stuff than just. For humanity, so, what are your thoughts on that? Of course you know I don't know Abraham Lincoln I. Know About Him and the things that I've studied about him A. Yes, he did abolish slavery did free the slaves, but I think it was a well I. I lean towards fixing it was. He wanted them to go back to where they came from. Guy He he he realized this is wrong. You know these are people, but you know and own them to sell them and Dude, torture them and beat them. Etcetera is wrong. You know we need to stop that, but of course society never going to accept them after that you know we're gonNA happen though back. like Marcus Garvey kind of thing If? Those were his feelings of the day. You know that's fine, but guess what we're here now. And we're not going back no more no more so than any white worsens went back to Europe in a we are. Americans is our country and we help build it. So you know that's that's the way it is. Let's let's learn how to get along. one of the things that. I think. Has To happen is. We. We are perpetuating a lot of this. Police violence whether it's on white people or black people. By not having a national registry. For police officers who've gotten into trouble bother misconduct especially agrees misconduct ethic like what we saw the other day. We at what black people have been seeing the last hundred years or so. WE'VE BEEN COMPLAINING ABOUT Because what happens is in the rare instances where they get fired. Or get convicted. And terminated from their department, they just on to another department and get and get rehired somewhere else. It's just like you know. Be Catholic priests who abuse little boy. That's all they do is just shift them around. Rather than protect them and shift them around some other a parish congregation where the whole sexual abuse thing starts all over again. Whereby If you if you are sex, abuse or something like that, you know pedophile, you go on a national registry, so you're in New York and you get convicted you out to California to get a job and they see you on this national registry up it. We're not. We're not hiring you to work at a little love. You know youth, camp or something like that, so we need the same kind of thing for beliefs, so we need to what for job at following ember, alert for racist. Yellow there's one in your neighborhood. You. Know I'm curious about this to. The registry thing is amazing, but what? I'm seeing a lot right now, and and a friend of mine posted about this so When we see a lot of people like conversing about what's going on right now whether it's black people, talking to white people or Cetera there seems to be a lot of individuals that instead of Trying to actually converse, they're more so trying to get revenge. like by I've seen people try to? Publicly make individuals apologize for the. Racism on public forums, calling them out and I've seen that go on a lot. Then you also see individuals like you see videos of people trying to make officers, Neil and sometimes it it's. It's actually something that people are trying to do, but there's other times you see, and they're just literally Neil to meet Neal's me. It's it's like. How is this productive? It doesn't seem that I. It's not so How can you help us like? Get better at trying to go towards the solution without I guess. Shaming people. No I think people should be shamed okay if they do something that is agreed just out outwardly cest. But trying to hold somebody accountable for something that somebody else did The apology is symbolic. That is still needs to be made. I'll give you an example of Sundin. I gave a lecture. At university out mid West awesome niches. Few years back. And we were talking about slavery and things like that. And the fact that the United States has never. Never apologized for slavery. We have apologized to native Americans. We have apologized to up to the Japanese and their descendants of Japanese Americans. Who we put in the environment camps. We've never apologized for slavery and if you are. One of those intimate people, you're still alive or your send. You're entitled to a little bit of government money same thing with native Americans? If you thank one eight native American you. You can get some money for what happened to you. There's nothing like that, but people like you and I I not Mustang. We need money. But, at the very least we need an apology, and then so anyway we're talking about this and this. This young younger offshoot a sophomore there in the in the college. She wasn't racist at all, but she didn't give it. She said you know I don't understand girl I. Don't understand why I should apologize when I didn't own slaves. You know I can't help. My grandfather did whatever he's long gone I. Delivery is wrong, but why should I apologize? I said it is symbolic I, said no one is accusing you of own slaves all right or do anything like that. Of course you wouldn't do that. I said, but the apology is symbolic. It never came us at for example the it was in November when I was speaking there and Thanksgiving was coming up and I said listen, I said let's let's say that I was a student here and and you knew I live on the east coast. And you say may bureau you know. You went home for Thanksgiving and be with your family, or whatever and I said no, I don't have the money at the. An! I'll go home on Christmas break. And then, and then you say to me well, you know I live you know my my grandparents. Tomio I, I could bring home. Some students of my classmates who who didn't have anywhere to go within giving. Would you like to come to my grandparents soon dinner I'd say sure okay, so she picks me up from my Dome Tori Breezy me over to her house along with some other kids and while they're wonderful grandparents, a a racist remark. He's off the cuff of whatever. The you know he's never had. Out before. And On the way back to the dormitory machines because she's driving me back, she says I said. Hey I'm sorry about about what what my grandfather said in not to say that. Blah Blah Blah I said I said, would you do that? She goes of course I, would i? So you know what you just apologize your ancestors that you'd have nothing to do remark. Your apology does not change what he did. But it's your ackknowledgement. That it was somebody related to. And is symbolic. If you had not apologized to me, we probably wouldn't be friends anymore on campus. You know. Affected through. It doesn't change what he did or how he feels, but the fact that you would knowledge it. They toomey sanders in our country. Who see what's going on? Notice wrong? And they feel bad about it, but they don't one of voice. Voice and that you know Martin. Luther King said he who walks in silence. Hangs the innocent unless the guilty, go free. So. That's why an apology is needed with trying to force one out of somebody. I think is counterproductive. Catch it has to come from within so which so so to answer your question in A. How do you? How do you do this? You have you have civil dialogue civil discourse and you lead by example and show people. Things educate exposed to them so that they come to the conclusion WHOA. I never knew this a lot of white people, even white people and those Oklahoma didn't even know about the Tulsa race riots because it's not in the history books there. It's been swept under the carpet. Now so when they start seeing it it Whoa whoa now. I understand why you are so pissed off. You know it's like these people who saw the the George Floyd murder. We've been seeing that for one hundred years before video cameras every existed. And now they're seeing that I. I don't believe this and I. Think is happening in some anomaly some bubble. Say No, no, no, this is not about George Lloyd. There have been a hundred years of joy Detroit's. I get it. I get it, and then they lend their voice, so it has to come from within then you can't force it out of them, you know. You can, you can legislate. Somebody's behavior. what you can compel their behavior through legislation. If they don't do this. They'll be arrested, but but you cannot compel feel. So that's why you have to lead by example. It takes patients because you know if if they're not living that life. They, don't they? Don't get it. They don't see you know once. Perspective is one's reality. You know what you brought up. There was really interesting because There's a discussion that I had this weekend with a few people and. awake. I was a very open discussion and this guy said you know right now. Obviously, things are really really weird and. Sometimes I find it hard because I've asked a vast black before. What can I do etcetera, etcetera and some people? You know they tell me you know. Go do your research on. You know this isn't my job to tell you. But we. We some of US kind of agreed like sometimes it's not like our responsibly to educate you, but at the same time. If there's a person that really wants to know right there, they're open. It's necessary to help them out because they can go help their family and their family their kids, they can go spread that out, but if you're closed off to and not patient enough like you said because it takes massive amounts of patients, that person may just quit on themselves and say well, it's not my responsibility. So I'm just curious what your thoughts are on that because you're seeing that narrative a lot now, a lot of black people are having white people and other individuals. Reach out and say hey. I didn't know that you guys went through. This I didn't know that there is this. What can I do on my side to help? Nation exploit that to bring that in. Say let's compensation. Thank you for asking. Now, thank you for asking. What's the. earplugs are out. And that's that's an opportunity. Within days. We got us of the circumstance where you're talking to a clansman. Regular you know third grade dropout doesn't matter alright. A missed opportunity dialogue. Is a missed opportunity for conflict resolution? Whether whether you're provided the the education to that person or whether he's getting out of. Zach located in Britannica or the Internet Google or blinking the courts of the local community college. You know you have lived it. You have lived it and so so there is a first hand opportunity to tell somebody you have been through which you have personally experienced. Let me let me give you an example of something in eighth grade. my science class ultimate doing it's an experiment and I had to. Might Spirit consisted of using a piece of dry ice. And, so I was told that I could get this a dry. Is this a? Delicatessen few miles from my house where I lived in had dry ice. So I called them this yet. They had it and so I got my father to drive down their the eighth grade. Fourteen years old. I'm not driving and To give me a twenty dollar bill, not knowing how much does cost? He sits out in the car. I go. and. I asked the doctor the dry is he runs this big chunk out only one about that much and so much WanNa showed him weekly like chocolate. And wrap it up in. Some Brown paper said it'd be five dollars, so I give him the twenty dollars so now I got all this extra money that my dad gave me and I'm looking inside this glass counter and I want to eat. And so I, see him I said. Geez all kinds of stuff and so I asked for him change sandwich. You? Can't do that. This is kosher place. And now I heard the word kosher before. But to me. We kids how you use the word Kosher Everything was OK kosher. That kind of thing is cool kosher. Yeah we. We had no idea what the true definition was. These I didn't. I wasn't Jewish and so. I'm thinking okay, so it's cool to walk on the have. And So I find a rationalize why he wouldn't do it and then I'm thinking. Oh, well, maybe these this piece of Ham and others trees is a models for what is available, but he's all out of stock in the back. So I fought the mother me. Ends and cheese and stuff and I said well. How about a Salami? Geez now is culture plays y'all. What I got the sandwich he goes, get the hell out of here and kicked me out of the store out of out of the delicatessen. Now that was a a missed opportunity to educate. All right 'cause I was ignorant. I had no clue. Obviously, he knew I wasn't Jewish I mean yes, there are black genius, but obviously if I was Jewish, I would not kosher met. So that right there told him I wasn't. Jewish let alone the color of my skin now I don't think he was raised us think that he was you know office that I didn't know what what something met. I haven't done my research so to speak, and it wasn't his job to teach me so. If IF I. Could have gone to ways. You know fortunately for me. I later found out what kosher met. And I would ask my friends and they were telling me. Most of them didn't know why they knew what it meant. You don't miss the dairy with the meat. And say, but why with just the way it is. Yeah, yeah, but why why to be? Why don't mind my mother did it? My grandmother did just the way it is yeah, but what's the root of it? You know so anyway. or I could have been mad at all Jewish people and figure that they all are like that. You know because this guy behave that way and I was young. I was fourteen years old. I'm impressionable. I didn't have that much contact with Jewish people, and that's my experience so now I'm GonNa have a chip on my shoulder about Jewish people. Fortunately I didn't go that way, but that could have happened that like that, and so yes, that is an opportunity for us as black people for him as a Jewish person, you know when you see somebody, ignorant or something and I don't use the word ignorant derogatory since as an uneducated unaware unexposed. Yes, we have an opportunity to to make things right and the the saying I'm not my brother's keeper. Yes, we are we already this country together so off. You guys are my brothers, and I'm your neighbor if I. See something wrong, I have. I have an answer I'm going to provide it to you. You see you see me going down the wrong path puja. Yeah opportunities for education I think are super important. I had some friends that said that their kids were scared. Because I saw the riots on, TV, you know. They saw buildings burning and. Police officers. You know hitting people with batons and so on. And I said you know there's a great learning opportunity for you to talk to your children, and say well the fear that you have that uneasy feeling that you have in your heart, and in your stomach is the same feeling that black people feel when they're seeing cops do this on TV routinely so I agree with you one hundred percent I think a lot of times people get frustrated. Sometimes with children because they don't know something or they just assume that they're going to be able to. Pick up on something, but it's a great opportunity to to deliver a message Joan right then and there. xactly exactly. Exactly and we are responsible for educating one another you know. I'm a I'm here to a on the last time we were together. You know that I just again? Real quick that I give sixty to eighty lectures a year, so a lot of colleges and universities, two or three out of every ten lectures I give in I'll do Qa at the end whatever, and even after his over students will still come up to the podium to ask one last question or they wanNA touch one of my plan robes whatever? And two or three out of ten times it'll be one student off in the distance. And I've come to learn what's going on. He or she is waiting for the crowd to go away on they when they go away, this person will walk over and they'll. They'll haul and. I enjoyed your lecture. Today was Look around mixture. Nobody's within earshot Emma. Say you know I was raised that way. My mother is in the clam on my father was a neo Nazi, or whatever, and now I'm here at this college and. You know my my my. My my boyfriend is black or my girlfriend is Jewish or. Dating this Muslim girl I'm dating this guy from Pakistan or whatever you know. I can't bring them home. I think it'll kill me or the disown me and I can't tell my friend drop me. So they got this burning secret on their chest. That's causing an ulcer and they have to get it off so. They they release. It threw me that I'm the perfect person for them to speak with, and you know how to handle it. A Win Win, because here's what happens in their neighborhood. A modernized. Everybody there in that neighborhood goes to the same school. They cheered the same football team. They read the same books this woman. The Same Communities Women Bull your grocery shopping of the same. Russia store etc, they're all the same. And now you come to college. Get an education because your parents went in. The high school doesn't come with you. And that you around people from all over the country at all over the world. And you find out that Jewish people don't have orange and black people don't have tails. You know and Muslim. People are not all terrorists. You know your eyes opening. Like oh my goodness. How do you tell your parents? They were wrong. You know your parents want you to come here and get an education, but they didn't want you to get that education case. The dam sure didn't want you. Bring back home. You know what I mean so. What you do at an your changed forever, your perspectives. I changed forever because of that exposure. And you can't go back home with all these people who have Islamaphobia or homophobia, or they're racist or anti-semitic. All your friends from high school, or whatever because you are a changed person, and and how do you? How do you navigate that? And and it's it's a good thing, but also presents a problem. I think in some households it will be up to the younger generation that's in the household to actually dispel the myths surrounding racism. How do you think a child could go about doing that? Not Maybe even child, but just a young person. Go about doing that someone that's you know between the ages of fifteen and thirty or so, and and they're you know they're out of barbecue with the family and they hear something that's that's. That's racist and they can. How do you think they should Help dispel some of these myths. Obviously, if you just said Hey, what you're saying is wrong or why. That's really a rational that you think that way. What do you think would be a good way to to to open up a conversation and maybe open up their ears a little bit? I think that That child should ask their parents. Why didn't they didn't stand up and speak out against that? They know it was wrong. Maybe this was. If it was a kid saying it of course the kid. wiz Kid with as an adult speech, saying it that it might appear to be disrespectful, but why didn't any of the other adults over or you? Mom And Dad? What you all say something? It was wrong. And then and then let the adults have that conversation with the child. Either they'll defend with that. Person said or they'll sell yet. I know it was wrong, but were. There's no bus that now they can have that conversation and that child can see that oftentimes there is hypocrisy. and. We all know people who have you know black or white, or whatever who have some degree of of some phobia in their family, whether it's where this CEO, gay people or Jewish people, or whatever people you know and and they? You Yeah. I love my uncle, but you know he he was. He was the most racist person. You know that kind of stuff. We all know those people. And I tell you. Schools. Schools dance around these issues. And one of the business culprits are religious institutions. And cut you know I'm GonNa. Come down on them I. Mean I was raised in the church and all that kind of stuff. Right and I'm a Christian but. Every or pretty much. Every. Religion has some form of Sunday school since for the younger people, four and five year old six year, six-year-olds Cetera Mormons Habit! Catholics added Partisans Avid Jewish. People have. and an end those in that Sunday school the kids learn. God made a rainbow of different colors, and we're all God's children. He loves US all. And again four and five six seven eight years old. We're taken this in, and this is what we believe. Because our personalities, our minds have not been shaped yet. You know we're young, kissed sponging information, and this is our teacher and authority it of course, and we believe everything he or she says whether it's radio, school, kindergarten or at the church. So this is what we believe. And then, when we reach puberty at lessons, whatever we're sent upstairs to the larger congregation, we sit in the upstairs and listened to the preacher, the Reverend, the minister, the priests, the rabbi, whichever whatever clergy US there. And that's when the problem starts. Because that clergy it is stops the Sunday school lesson. He or she no longer continues telling the mass congregation. We're all God's children got made a rainbow all all right. Because? If he or she were to say, you know what folks okay for blacks and whites to get married. It's okay for Jewish people to marry. Or whatever half that congregations get up and walk out. All right and They damn sure won't be putting any money in the collection wave when it gets passed around. Was the only pay for what you want to hear her. If you're not hearing what you're not doing, what you WanNa hear. In Bahir Wala in. Late so. What happens is this. You leave the congregation or get rid of that. Does that preacher and bring somebody else then? Who's GonNa tell you what you WanNa hear. It's just like if you send your kid to school public school and he's not learning in public school. What would you think he needs to learn you? Snatch him out and you put them in a private school. If he doesn't learn it there, you snatch them out and you home school them. That's what happens you pay for what you want to hear. And unfortunately the clergy is putting money over morality. They know is wrong, but they realize if they said something that that their congregation doesn't WanNa hear regardless of how moral it is regardless of how of how they can best even back it up in the Bible. It doesn't matter if you're GONNA lose perjury. You'RE GONNA lose a job? So they putting more. Money over morality. And that's got to stop and you know we have this. We have Black Baptist churches. We have white. Baptist churches, but yet we read the send King James Bible and the God. We have Black Baptist churches because we were not accepted in the white baths churches. We had to step up our own, and then later on of course Saudi established by Blah, but they can still get together, but they don't, but then they say you know. We we are we are brothers in Christ. In your white black brothers and You accept me as your brother Rice oh absolutely. But. Will you accept me as your brother in law? Oh my gosh. there. Mike my question is it. How long do you foresee racism continuing on 'cause that's that's a whole nother. Topic but my question is. How long do you foresee some of these protests the? The the riots and all that. For the current situation. Do you have an ID or Anything in mind to see how long something like this will continue on. I think it's going to continue on through the election in November. Maybe not as as large as we see it, but it's all depend upon. What happens not that said? The page is turning. Over yet. It's just in the process of turning. Right if it's stays right there, the protests going to last a lot longer if it's going back down to where it was is going to increase, and there's GonNa. Be a lot more reform, but for example. Again you know Not about specifically what what just happened, but there's been a lot that's happened in the last week. In the last three weeks whatever you'd have to bring Taylor as you got the the Amy Cooper with the dog and the heart. You Got George Troy you know something has to change, so it's. Always been happening would just seeing more without seeing more and more of it we're here. We're seeing more of it on video is the problem, but it's always gone on and let example that girl in the park. She she claimed. To the police that this African American man was threatening her life. And and threatening the life of her dog. In the ramble in central park when actually she was threatening, his life is what was happening. Because listen. She says she felt threatened, but yet she walked up in his face and. You can see it right there in the video joined that thing off stock recording me. If you felt threatened. You be walking up on your threatening. Threatening him pointing figuring his race, you'd be walking the other way. All right and so she knew what she was doing. She didn't say. I'M GONNA. Call the police and tell them is threatening my life. She told him. I'M GONNA. Call the police and tell them an African American man is threatening my life. because. She knows the history. Of Blacks in the beliefs. And usually when a black person. Is involved with with a white woman, especially whether it's a with a good involvement or bat, involvement is usually a deadly involvement when the police arrive. Has that potential. So. She knew what she was doing. You know. He's standing right there. Shouldn't even describe what he was wearing. She said an African American man. Were there plenty of African American men in Central, park? Is that. They're paying white men. Did you say he was wearing white tennis shoes on the red shirt and blue jeans or loafers? No. I and they WANNA. Know is a description. You're them at the guy off. You wanted to tell the piece was. There was some black guy threatening her life she was. They WANNA come, and that would be the end of the story for him, and she wanted to make him scared. So these. these are the things that we also have to deal with not just people in the plan or in the outright. Just individuals who think like this. Because no will not change the system. We got to change the people. who run the system. The system is changed by itself. Darryl in that situation that you just mentioned Like I said. We're having a lot of conversations these days about this type of situation like relations between. Ethnicities. And one thing that I'm seeing used a lot. Is the term white privilege and I've been hearing a lot of individuals hearing that that terminology way more nowadays than ever mean used to hear it a bit, but now you're hearing about all the time but what I'm noticing also is that. As much as we know that in this situation with Amy Cooper, and and had because lasting was also cooper forgotten I Chris Christopher. Christopher Cooper as you can see she. She knew where her privileged at lie there and she knew how to weaponize it. She knew like cheers relationship with the cops. You can also see a lot of individuals kind of going about the use of the term. White Privilege a little bit, too. Broad it's like whenever I'm seeing it a lot I'm seeing whenever you know. Conversations are happening, and maybe a white person says something. Maybe ignorant gives they just don't know. The white privilege hammer comes down and honestly the conversation just kind of disseminates because. Again it's being used very broadly, so my question to you is. How can we explain what white privilege actually is? But then also from the side of using that terminology, how is it best used be as many times like I said it's being term that's being weaponized against an individual rather than a turn. That's trying to used to educate an individual. Yes sorta like the race card. In. Reverse of the. Race Guard I think in a when these these things are done. If you if you are truly seen white privilege, explain why why why you're saying this white privilege rather than just say whether you know you just gotTa with White. Privilege a lot of it is white privilege because? Again once perspective is once reality and if they don't know they don't know. You. Know and and the end. There's really no reason for them to know because it doesn't happen to then. They don't experience these things. They don't get pulled over late at night and beaten up. Things I. Bet they'd go home tonight. So if you've got pulled over late at night and be not. What did you do? Get done something. So you know they don't they don't get that. That's their white privilege. I've run into stores and. In fact, this girl you know. I'm a musician and I was accompanied her on the piano and she was riding with me. We stopped at a gas station and she went into. Get Soda Pop or whatever candy and I came in after her. was in line right behind her. She was white. As we got to the counter I got my. Trips or whatever as she paid the lady with whatever bill she gave her. Lady change in her hands. My turn stand there waiting for me. I'd give my bill. A half of the change and she put it down on the counter. She wants at hand. I just stood there like this. The picked it up, but in my hand and my friend said. I. Don't believe it I've heard about that. I didn't believe it. I see. I just witnessed it. I told her. That's my privilege. You don't see you. You don't see those things unless you experienced done. It took for her to when she wasn't racist at all. As you started with not a stupid person, you know but that that's not in her bubble in her world. Issues have to go through that, but now she sees it unnatural related it, so not everybody you know is. Has that experience of being exposed to it firsthand like she was? That's why it's incumbent upon us. If we're going to tell somebody they have. Something tells me what they are. We think that we have to have reason to tell them and make an helped to understand them. Examples like you know. You can say hey, you know I want them to elevator and white lady grabbed her purse bill, but but which wasn't grabbing. when when the White Guy came in the elevator and someone that you know we all have seen those examples or or you and I get followed around the store we get followed around the store, or nobody wants to help us one or the other. Would it be fair to say that? Being Black in America is like an extra challenge? We all have challenges. We all face challenges. That some people's just say all. We all have challenges. You gotta get over it, but do you feel that being black is just like an? It's an extra challenge that you have to. Deal with day in, and day out. Yes because we have all the challenges that these people say, get over it. Have we have those challenges? We lose jobs we We get divorced. We you know a kid fails is his test. You know whatever the challenges they have. We have a the wife gets sick. We take care of her sober zone. Those normal everyday challenges of life so as long as anybody who's living I. Don't give your agents panic black white. In Mongolian we all have those challenges of life, but yes, we have the extra challenge because we have a certain profile that we have to deal with in in a area where people who look who fit that profile are not welcome. Or are feared. So. Yes, you know it's like. Police officers, you know. said in a in a when they go out the deal, they put on that badge and gun. And that uniform and they go to work. They go out. They are putting their lives on the line. They are pull somebody over on the highway for speeding. And they walk to that car. They don't know. They're gonNA. be able to walk back to their car. I might pull. The gun has happened. So yes, they are in their lives on the line, but you know what I feel when I, walk out this door. This is my uniform. And I'm putting my life on the line to. Come home. And that's the problem. That these people in these football stands stands, stadiums don't understand. They go and they cheer for their team. You Got Black guys white guys working together on the football field to win that game in on on your team. Block the white guys and they all get along those all fine. Everybody in the bleachers in the stadium. is cheering their team of black white guys in love him. The, idolized the sports celebrities. But what they don't realize is when those black guys leave the stadium at driving home. It's a different story. It's a different story. On the field, they're all recognized and treated with respect and everybody loves them, but when they when they leave the stadium. They don't into another world. And that is what that man was kneeling about. A method. They don't get booed him. And the president of the United States called him a son of a bitch. And then now will you get all these white cops out there kneeling? Where do we hear where we hear the president calling them the same name? That's what we see. I liked what I saw in Virginia. which some people might disagree with me but There's a lot of people protesting and they were vandalizing. They took down some statues and stuff like that and the police didn't step in and one of the officials in the area I. Don't know if it was the. mayor chief of police. I'm not sure who it was. He said it's just a rock. You know and I think you know when when we think when we think about right, we think about human life right versus versus what happened to that to that stone that was. In I don't even know who it who it was, but. Jefferson, Davis, president, confederacy, right, and so when we even think about the American flag like I. M Patriotic I I love a lot of things about America, but the flag is just You know something that we printed Stars and Stripes on. It's something that we made up, and we have a certain identity to it, and when it comes to these statues, these monuments you know I'm not in favor of seeing them all like torn up and ripped down. There's probably better ways of of you know. Making some of these things happen, but. These these statues are there and they represent things from our history that that aren't great and I think that's a good vantage point to say. Hey, it's just it's just a rock. It's not worth beating the crap out of people over, and maybe those things shouldn't be there to represent us, because maybe they're not representing the right right things. Agree with you and I don't think. A lot of us. Do not all of the statues, but a lot of the statues. were put up long after the civil wars in the making twenty s some in the nineteen sixties as a slap DUA integration into phase of integration none of them should have been put up in the first place, but but but the ones that were put up long after the civil war where we're used to to insult people in now okay so. You know you you. You don't make us integrate with your. We're GONNA put our our statues and our flags up. Is the issue off in the State of Virginia? which is right next door to me? I am on twenty minutes from often from the July. Fifteen minutes from DC Virginia and DC in Maryland, all right there together anyway. Every county courthouse in Virginia has a confederate statues in front of it. And Guess. Who built those courthouses black? People? And back in the day. even the old courthouses distort. Ones were built by the slaves. Back in the day. If a black had to go to court, he had to go through the back door of the of the courthouse. Today. Of course we go through the front door, but if I have to go to Virginia go to court for something, Miguel was speeding down the street, or whatever endeavour ticket over there in Virginia I go to court traffic court. I have to walk past the confederate statues. And I have to wonder to myself. A Mike I'm GONNA get a equal justice or might not get confederate justice. So those things need to go all right. They should not be destroyed. I don't believe in destroying them. They can be put in a museum. a a confederate memorial art. Be can be built and they. They can be put over there now. We the government should pay for that art. Sons of the confederacy, and whatever else in base away or whatever they me put their and their flag can be flown to air. Confederate fried is not deserved with flown over the state capital of South Carolina. You know we had to make it. Come down because it does not represent everybody in South Carolina was capital does not that flag. So if people want to honor their ancestors and all that kind of stuff from civil war. They can go to the park. They can go to the museum listen. I had ancestors who fought in the confederacy. I am a descendant of slaves, I one in Chicago. Only because my father had a job there at the time, but my parents are from Virginia roanoke and Salem. So which which was the seat of the confederacies, did Regina and if you know anything about American history, you know that the slaves had to fight for their slave masters. In the in the civil war, so my ancestors as slaves fought in the confederacy now. On my ancestors, because without them, I wouldn't be here, but I don't honor slavery or the confederacy myself. There are some people who do, but and that's you know that's their business they can. They can go to their. The loser does not get to build his statue. The loser did not get to fly his flag. We went to war. Against Japan. When they bombed Pearl Harbor. We have plenty a plenty of Japanese Americans here in this country. And some of their ancestors were involved. In that war against the United States with Japan. But, these people erect statues of Hito. Whoever else? The Japanese flag no Japan lost. We went to war against. Germany Against Adolf Hitler. They are countless German Americans in this country and you know. Their ancestors were involved with Hitler Hitler was a dictator. You had no choice if you in Germany whether you agree with them or not. You. You're under him, and you and you. You fought for him. You stood what he stood for. He was a dictator as you didn't. You were living in it. So those people love their ancestors. Do they erect statue of Adolf Hitler and Goebbels and all these other people, an fly swastika flags outside their house now. The South lost the war. Get over it. That's your that's that's my attitude. Don't don't destroy the know those things as part of our history. Go build apart it museum and go there and honor those people. That's what you WANNA do. But. The government should not pay for it just like we wouldn't pay for for a statue of Hitler just because we went on June German Americans, or or statue of the emperor of Japan just because we want on Japanese-americans. Why why why would we built a statue of Robert? E Lee? Why would would we pay for a confederate? A apart the confederacy loss? They gotta understand that. In just a slave plantations, you can take a tour aflaid fragmentations. At some of the charge you money to go on the property and go, look at the slave quarters and see the big antebellum global homes, and all this other kind of stuff. I would not pay money. To go see that. Why would I pay money to go on a piece of property? That might answers foster hardy. Get the hell off of. Now I. I've I've seen all of that stuff I. I've seen it on the free places and I've been to worry island over in Africa wear. A lot of the slaves came from. I lived in Senegal other than Africa for ten years, so I visited Bori Island for free and I saw that. But why would I pay money? To to go to the property. That might people died and fought to get off of. He think rioting is necessary I. Mean definitely draws a lot more attention. To the situation I don't think and I don't think most rational people are in favor of violence of any kind or burning buildings, but it does seem like it It made things more urgent and seems like it it. It may be did put pressure on people. Let me explain that to you. you sit and violence was not necessary. Right and that's what we've been saying that. We've been sending for four. Hundred Years. Right. There there was violence and choking man to death of in New York and garnered. There was violence kneeling on the man's net, was violence and hanging somebody from a tree. So. Speaking I digress for a second speaking of hiring somebody from a tree George. Fluid was not murdered. He was lynched. He was lynched. What's the definition for that? Of Lynching yet. Of taking somebody. WHO WHO allegedly has committing as committed a crime and murdering that person before they have their day in court, so a lot of people think legends just hanging somebody from a tree. Emmett till was lynched, he wasn't actually he was beaten and tortured and thrown in the river. The guy in. A James Bird and Jasper Texas the planet. You remember a few years ago back in the ninety S. Clan grabbed him. Chained into the back of a pickup truck and dragged him to his death. That was a lynching. so. You've seen those pictures. Of lynchings, making twenty s where hope family is out there in all kinds of people end their pointing at the Batman hanging in the tree and smiling, posing for the camera, and some of those pitchers were turned into postcards. And, they would send them to their families out of state. You know you know this is how we handle our nigger problem. They were postcards of this. Google of lynchings and you'll see them. That was a lynch mob. These people were arrested either. Legally or illegally? They were arrested for what they did or even arrested for they didn't. Do you know and before they could go to court? A mob goes in. A white mob goes in. them out of the cell. And brings him to a tree strings them up. That's a lynch mob, and oftentimes not all the time, but oftentimes the authorities were in on it. They'd leave the door unlocked because they knew the Lynch mob was coming and they didn't want their. Their jail torn up, so the unlock the door, otherwise the door get broken down. You Know An. How do you get into a lot sell? Somebody left. The door unlocked liens. Dan All right so. When you have all these people? Look you know standing there. Watching somebody, you'd be murdered by hanging him on a tree and the you posed for pictures. What I saw the? Those two mondays ago when when George Floyd was was was was breathing his last breath. That was a lynching again you got. Two officers one holding him down on the back, even though he was a moving wasn't resistant. He's handcuffed of holding him down on the legs. One Guy Standing on the sidewalk, holding the young people passing by from getting too close, and Derek shelvin kneeling on his neck, looking right at the camera the whole time that he's being filmed until this man took his last breath. beden mentioned. That's a much. so back back to the protest in the writings of I'm totally. against. All this looting and stuff that that is not calling for that is never called for shame on those people and I'll tell you I don't believe that the majority I would say probably ninety nine percent of the protesters were not involved in that looting I believe those people were the people who were exploiting. The protests for their own benefit whether there are black, their blacks and whites doing that, but they were not a involved in the cause, aren't they? Were there to stir up trouble? create dissension, or whatever you know, some of the sunset you know. They were Antiga by white supremacists involved nationals Cetera were blending in with the protesters, etc.. Yeah, probably okay, because that's how they did was they exploited but. I, don't advocate and I'm not justifying the burning down of the buildings, but I understand it. Understand it, and there is a reason why that happens. and. Let me explain that you can. People always say. Why I don't understand why you people so, people, Y you. People set fires to the buildings and stuff, and even in your own neighborhood and Blah Blah Blah. Here's the reason. because. We have been crying out. We've we have been demanding to be heard and again. Nobody was listening. Now! If you a drag down the street speeding or you run through a red light couples you over you get a citation. You get a ticket. if If you do something to somebody. Hurt them or something they sue you. If you don't pay your credit card. Bill in on time. You get you get a late fee attached to it. All these examples I. Just gave you a cost you money. And the reason why you get the ticket or you get the the late penalty with a lawsuit is to deteriorate behavior some occurring again. They figure if they can separate you from your money you will. You will modify your behavior because nobody likes to be separated their money. You work hard for that money, so students you for fifty thousand dollars they win. You know or or you get one hundred fifty dollars speeding ticket. Or twenty five dollars extra on on your credit card bill didn't on chances. Are you going to modify your behavior? You'RE NOT GONNA be down the street again. You're not going to do whatever it was. You did that guy to somebody else I N. Your credit cards on time. So money modified your behavior if you're separated from it. While these people had been begging to be heard. For decades and nobody is listening. And then they go to the court and the and the court is is unbalanced, not blind justice. Is this kind of justice. You know peeping up when I. So. They're frustrated the only way they can get your attention is the same way you get. There's the hit them in the wallet. So they go. They burned down the city. That cost the city, millions and millions and millions of dollars. To rebuild and the insurance companies that have to ensure those people. The insurance companies are mad at the police. Because they gotta pay out. Because all these buildings have insurance. So the so the insurance is want the blue also modify their behavior because insurance companies how they are. They don't want to get rid of their money. They want you to pay premiums, but when it comes time to collect. They don't WanNa pay you, but now they have to. So when you hit somebody like that and cost millions of dollars on Sunday told the earplugs out, and now they're willing to hear you. Instead I'm not laughing at it, but it's just ironic. I don't advocate burning down buildings and I don't justify I'm just giving you the reason why it's happening. Because you're separating the city from its money and you saw how fast! The fire and happened and the and the arrests were made, and then when the third degree murder. Whatever that is was instituted more buildings that burned down and a new prosecutor came in took over the case and up to do a second degree murder. And he may up a diverse degree if there's enough evidence. you mentioned Antifa? US US more better than anybody on the KKK. Can you educate us on who ANTIFA is and what they're like? What? Why do they keep getting mentioned so much during these? Protests and riots. Empty is short for antifascists. and. Here! You know that there was an Antifa movement in Italy and Germany. Way Back when and they've just taken that you know that name. And here they. A lot of them are are or the hatchet said they have a lot of anarchists. Involved with them, they are their goal is is to get rid of racism, which is an admirable goal I don't necessarily agree with the methods that they do it. They can be very violent, very destructive for aggressive. And and they definitely very impatient. I've had my run-ins with ANTIFA I. WanNa get rid of racism, but I don't believe in in causing violence and. Overthrowing the government and attacking the police and all that kind of stuff, and they will, and they will attack anybody who does not agree with their methods the The anarchist joined that because they're ready to rumble and they WANNA instigate. Chaos! So. That's a good place to do it. Just like the people who want to export the protesters you know they brought down. The buildings are the ones when they're and leaked. That kind of thing so I've had I've had several run-ins with with ANTIFA. because I'm willing to sit down and talk with JJ and at Wor, Neo Nazis and they don't like that in fact. A one of them I've called me a white supremacist, which just caused me to burst out laughing, because I've been called. Every name in the book is at my own name, but it was a I I've been bald away supremacist so I I mean when you call me a white supremacist. You already lost the fight. That was your last round of admission. Yeah, thank you so much. Appreciate it man. I. Think Your points about. The rioting I think really makes makes a lot of sense and I think that. I think sometimes you know it's. It's important for things like go a little too far. I think sometimes I think it's I. IT sucks that there's you know has been buildings burnt down. It sucks that there's been people hurt in the riots, but Um. In order to dispel some of these myths, and these misconceptions that people have been walking around with in their heads for so long. I think sometimes. There's no other way to do it then to. have. What's going on to happen? Because I think sometimes people just aren't willing to listen to reason with your own experience with going into the KKK and and talking to those leaders It seems like you may have dispelled the myth that people aren't willing to listen. Have you still run into people? Though after having good conversation with them, have you? Run into people that still are just. They don't care about what you said. They don't care about the information you shared with them. Assure. People like that for sure but they are more I had more good experiences than that. Now Than I've had bad, there will always be people you'd know who won't listen and. They will go to their graves being hateful by the racist. and you know here's another thing. This time around. Not only do. We have more collective voices that represent this country. All ethnicities coming marching. With us, and which is which is giving me attention of the people who need to hear it. They're seeing this for the first time, but is also getting the attention of the world. We are in a fishbowl now. At, other countries around the world are looking at us and having their own protests. She signs George Floyd over in Berlin Germany in London you know in Paris and other places because we are a Fishbowl, they are demanding now only justice in our country, but also in their own countries. So that's why I've say of this page is joining you know for the first. First Time a lot further than than has turned before, and that's not the discount all the work that led up to this because without the previous people doing their thing, we could not have gotten to this point to to do our thing, so it's very important. You know that this thing is happening and and is getting. The attention of that is getting. The attention that it is getting something that I've seen and mark mentioned the riots, but with the riots that have been going on, we can understand why it's happening, and we can understand why it's effective, but you hear many people trying to compare Looking down on the right trying to compare it to Martin Luther King, and how peaceful he was, and if you hear that narrative allot what what do you? What's your take on that idea? Because people are trying to say Oh, they should be peaceful like mlk. Was You know they were? They were doing siddons, etc, but not everything was like that when he when driving protests and using the people who are saying that. Are the are the ones who Who stood by. And let black churches be burned down and bombed. The stood by, or they participated in it, and now they're trying to destroy to do A. Move the needle over we'll. How can you on our like Martin Luther King, you know now he all he did was come in and sit sipping the floor so that the owner and you know people to vote on their eds or just march. You know he didn't do all the stuff. Well, you know. There were riots and there were white people who threw rocks them and. And people who pulled out at least dogs and fire hoses, and all kinds of other stuff now a lot of black churches got bombed and burned to the ground, because they were registration centers for black people, and even in the in the nineteen eighties, there was a stream of churches, being burned I knew one of the guys who was responsible for that in the clan I knew him personally. He didn't like me I didn't like him. I was king. He died in prison was Grand Dragon of South Carolina anyway. These protesters are not going going around. You know setting fires, two churches, burning down schools that educate black people you know people like a groups like Isis and al Qaeda. They want to cause as much destruction to people. To people. That's the difference. The clam that was burning down his places wanted to destroy people. As does AL, Qaeda and Isis. So where's a good place to go to to to kill as many people as you? Chan in one fell swoop a school a hospital. Those people can't escape their hospital beds with. Needles in them, and then later, and whatever else so you know, these people are vicious and inhumane. We'll go and drop a bomb on a hospital. Or on a on a school. Focused not doing that, they're not burning down buildings with people in them, unlike the Tulsa race riots, where white mobs went into Greenwood and Tulsa and and burn down people's homes with the in it that they tried to escape the got shot, and they went in there and looted the houses. You know this this is not what what disposes about the burning in these cases are are to get your kitchen. If you don't listen will not do the same thing. We're GONNA cost. You money in World War Two we got a Pearl Harbor that attacked and nineteen forty-three on December, seventh or something What did we do? We went and dropped a bomb a nuclear bomb on. He Will Shema and on neither sake. When when Moammar, Qaddafi of Libya shutdown PAM one. Oh, three or something. What did we do? We went and dropped a bomb on his palace. He he was not home at the time out in the desert, but allegedly his little daughter was killed in that in that thing when Reagan dropped the ball when when Saddam Hussein. Threatened us whether we do them embalmed his country. So we're not strangers to punching people you know for overboard with it, but these protesters are not doing that. They're not. They're not killing people. They are are trying to get your attention so that you will listen, and as you listen and things change. Things start to get issue now. The protests aren't as strong. They're not a the strong in spirit whether they're not on Moss you, don't you? The burnings you don't see all this going on. Because people are starting to listen so maybe in the future there won't be any burns I'm not saying it's if the tool to Younes I'm just pointing out why it's years. You've been a great resource for us. I really appreciate it. Where can people find it? Where can people follow along and get more information from you? Daryl Davis Dot Com D. A., R. A. Y. L. Davis, DAV, DOT COM and I hope people will call me or email me. Darrell Darrell Day was dot com. See my website and. Let's all get together. Let's do the state collectively because we are supposed to be the united. States of America not the confederate states of America the United States of America and when when when you hold your hand over your heart. And I hold my hand over my heart, and we said the pledge of allegiance we should both be believing in the same thing one nation. Indivisible. Under God with liberty and justice for all, but right now we are not one nation. We are not indivisible. We have very divided and certainly. No liberty and justice for all. So, that's what we want. That's where we want to get to so think about that Netanyahu. He said the pledge of allegiance, not everybody not everybody gets that. You know that this is some people who are not getting liberty and justice for all, and there are some people who are very divided, and that's what we have to fix so that we all can be equally proud to save to say those words. Well said. Thank you again. Always. always a pleasure to have you on the show in can't wait to meet in person one day. Absolutely thank you guys I really really appreciate it. Thank you, thanks. Okay Take Y'ALL UTAH. Fun having him on the show. Time, he's the Best A. Of Great Information. Just a clear something up when I was talking about those statues you know I'm not in favor of like vandalizing stuff among in favor of that necessarily, but what I thought was. Was Great was. It's hard to figure out how to like defend these pieces of property. Main. Thing is any of this stuff can be reduced. Know if if they thought that there's any reason to put up certain statues. They thought certain statues do represent parts of America that people believe in or or is fair than they can reestablish that, but the you know the ones they took down, obviously they they took those down for. Ripping those down for a reason, but I thought what a great attitude by the by the law enforcement in the area to just say it's just a rock you know and I think if both sides can kind of get to that position of like, it doesn't actually really mean anything. We shouldn't be like killing each other over it. We shouldn't be beating the hell out of each other over it. Just like you know at the same time, it's hard because you don't want people just to you know overrun and beat the hell out of everything and burn everything down because that does cost money, and it causes other problems, but. I think that if we can all get to a better spot where we can recognize that we have. a filtering system in our brain to where we can filter out what we see what we hear, and we don't always have to attach feelings to it, and then have irrational action behind that. then. I think we'll be in a better spot. It's a really really tough things to do nowadays though. A lot of the things I was asking him was pertaining to person to person interaction. Be as lot of the things that we're talking about with each other. If if you ask me something, it's going to immediately yield typically emotional response, and it's hard not to respond with that, but if you do respond emotionally that Kinda cuts of the Holcombe the whole conversation that cuts off you learning, something or me learning from you just because I ocean shades. What the intention of the conversation supposed to be? So they use a great person to talk about all of that yet might cloud the information that you're trying to give me and you might just I mean sometimes people go back and forth in conversation, and they finally just say hey. Well I. Just think what you're saying stupid. I I think what you're saying is dumb. You know, and then it's like well. I don't know how that helps. You know anything progress, Howard any any further, but if you're stating hey, this is how I. See it. This is my vantage point. This is my experience and you can say well. Hold on a second. You know I kind of agree some what you said there, but what about this and then we get in conversation and we start to figure out a way to. Move forward on it, but like you said. It's not easy, but I'm saying even if it's a statue of Jesus. You know I don't care what it is I. I don't think none of it really has. It doesn't have to mean anything unless you WANNA put meaning on top of it. If you think if you think statue of Jesus is willing, you're willing to die for then that's your interpretation of what Jesus means to you, and you can go for but I i. just don't I don't think it's rational. Personally. Yeah I was GonNa ask you like. Is there a symbol like the American flag or something that you do? Believe shouldn't be messed with. I. Don't think so okay. I we don't. We don't need any of those things. We're not born those things. They're all stuff that's made up. I do think. So, these are these are materialistic, symbolic things so those are. I understand why people get upset over them and I'm not saying that I. Don't have any emotion if I see like a burning flag or something. but what I am saying is that. You you would I would rather see if someone is going to fight that they fight over principle and ideas and concepts. To help progress and preserve. Maybe some ideas and concepts and I think that's kind of what's happening. Is Some people are like? No the confederate flag is represents ABC and I. Don't think we should do that to it and other people like no, because it represents Abyan. That's why we're getting rid of it. You know you know so. You end up with people on opposite sides of the coin, but if you think about it, you're like you fighting over flag like. Really gives a fuck. Yeah. Yeah, and and you know like how he said he's. People will argue like no. It's heritage like that's actually all I've ever really heard, so. It's I love that. He's explaining like no represents slavery. Because that's you know that was their side and they lost, but you're right. It is like a police of material. We get really heavily involved in tradition. You know there's. There's traditions that is just dumb. Shaking hands I mean we've talked about that on the podcasts before. It's like that's not. You. Know with with virus going around and stuff like that I understand like that's what we're used to. You know a hug a high five. You know but like. Maybe that's just maybe that's just a thing that has been passed on from generation to generation. That isn't productive. Maybe it is productive. Maybe somebody else can say. When you shake hands, and you make contact and you pick up the germs. Miller persons actually helpful to your immune system, but. I Don I'm unaware of like data like that or I. Don't know it seems like it would be better just to give you a little bow, or just acknowledgment. Hey, man, what's up and like isn't that doesn't have to be enough. I think it's a I. Mean 'cause I. Know I've heard this before when it comes to like. People in gangs and stuff it's like dude. You're really fighting each other over color you wear. How silly is that? That's way that's a different conversation, but but that's like making it really obvious. What mark's talking about the same you know like I mean. Yeah, it's just shot the guy because he was wearing red. Yep. So, if that is very clear, this, you know, I think we can do a good job or we have an opportunity to make this just as clear. Bam you know there's a lot of rational should like when he said that. It just reminds me like you know certain people hate people because they're gay people because they're black. It's really fucking though it's really really stupid. Or showing up at a at football game where in the other Teams Jersey. You know what you know what? I was thinking about the other day because you know the whole cabinet protests gang on the right and I know we talked about this here, but. An knees yet. Did we talk about this house? Like literally? It's almost like reverence when when people get on their knees like they're Gonna They're gonNA pray right like it's usually something about prayer. My mind went somewhere else at that for a second, but it's usually. To get down and like rates Tim. Tebow went down on one knee. He did he went down on one knee, and like it was, it was reverence, and it's like when that was being done I can't think of anything more passive that you could do. What do you want? Do you want to be splayed on the ground like this instead? It's just. Lip Thinking about it. It's not. It's not like. He dropped his pants down around his ankles. He could on something much worse could yeah. I just think about how ridiculous it is managed just. A lot of his protests kind of hijacked, because then people made it about the anthem and about the flagging. He was really just trying to i. mean who knows exactly what is his intentions were, but whatever it is at work because it just had people have conversation. Yeah, you believe. What cabinet did what ansel and it got people that got people talking got people having a conversation and some people like actually he's doing against police, brutality and some people are like. I. Don't like it, 'cause. It's against the. Against the anthem against tradition, and it's like well. Part of having freedom is the choice to. You know unfortunately part of having freedom is is to even be racist. Yeah, it's all part of it. You know you. You get to pick and choose what you want to be. But as soon as you start stepping on people's toes, you start to outwardly do things that are hateful. That's when we end up with a lot of problems, so Lewis Simmons I think you know, said it best in in bigger stronger faster, he said my morals or my morals, and your morals on your morals. Who Am I to judge you? And who are you to judge me I love that philosophy. You know just. And if we're not outwardly encroaching on each other's morals and ideas and concepts, and you know I'm not doing anything to you. Your family I'm not doing anything to a another race then. You know what I mean like. It's everything should be. Everything should be kosher. Someone not liking someone's perfectly. Okay, but you just you better not. Better not lead to I guess their detriment or damaging them in any way. That's fine right. Is it, is it? Is it impacting society in a negative way Yup which it very well could be because if you own a company, you could be making decisions based off of your biased, and you could be making decisions in your day to day. That are based off your biased could potentially. Not Be helpful I'd say yeah, yeah and then this is a really crazy realization, but you know we were talking about redlining, and like how if you're from certain area? You were not allowed to get, or you aren't going to get a loan for another. You know better, neighborhood and stuff. Is Pretty, interesting. I actually could see the people who are putting Placing bids on my house like who they were somewhat even send pictures and stuff, and I just like man, if I really wanted to, I can just make sure to like outwardly seek out a certain racer color of skin or something, and I was just like it Kinda I dunno, it just maybe because everything that's going on right now. Just blew me away to think like like damn. That's another way that you know like systemic racism would continue on it sure the banks are gonNA now give those loans, but if that. Is still ingrained in society. I can still continue on, and then it's just happens a different way. It just really tripped me out like almost to the point. Where like I got the chills just like? Oh Shit like if I wanted to. I could say not all these people and yes to this person, even though they're offers sucks. Wild like just really. You're really taking Incan into consideration your neighborhood now. Are these people going to fit into? This neighborhood shouldn't even be a factor. It's like. Can Afford the home and I mean the transactions should be. Should be pretty simple. I mean and then, but even think about how. They could even be worse than that if you're renting it, you know if you're renting it now. You really get to pick and choose. Get almost interview. Can Get to interview the person and say oh well. This person's not coming into my neighborhood. Yeah! This is crazy. Yeah, because I think I'm like okay well. My neighbors speak Spanish of like Mexican move. Family moves in like they might get along better in like sort of that thing, and then you know fucking like we're going to accept the best offer whoever that is or whatever offer fits us. Yeah, but best, but what about the idea for the registry? That sounds Kyle that's REMM and you'd have to. Examine in, you know. Make sure that that's you know something. That's just as well because you don't want to just. You don't have have a reaction and throw something in there, but i. think something like that's great. That's a smart idea and. It's kind of odd that they don't have anything like that I. mean maybe they do I don't know that's US thinking it's like. You officers having a registry basically of. Shared historical information about their actions. I don't know like I just. Him mentioning on the show today it sounds like a good idea, but if you think about it more, there could be potential reasons on why it doesn't exist or why. It's not not a thing, but at first glance I think it sounds like a US thing. It sounds like a great idea I'd imagine. They have something internally that we don't have access to. Because right your work, history is going to follow you regardless, but should it be public information yeah? Right. That is something I mean think about this sex offenders have yeah, they have a public one, but okay there sex offenders who have but say that it was a a guy and a girl at. They're just stupid. Young Twenty Year olds have sex in a park, their sex offenders, and now they're on that list. You know right for for something like that. I mean you shouldn't do that. But at the same time, maybe you shouldn't be on the list of other sex sex offenders right so when it comes to something like that like yeah, I think that that Kinda Shit. If cops are actually brutalizing, people should be on a list and. They said with Derek Chauve and I think he had nineteen. Yes, he had. Kind of a lot of complaints I never looked into how? You know how far down you know He. I'd never looked into what they were but it it. It does sound like a lot. You know sounds like he was a cop for around the same amount of years as complaints in the have. You know a complaint. Every year. I, think is a lot You know maybe somebody else's and think that's how much I don't know, but like that seems like if there legitimate. Gripes of him being overly aggressive and not handling situations in the right way. That's I think that's kind of excessive I think I think maybe have two or three situations that you didn't maybe handle so well. Makes makes some sense. but To have a history of of racism which I don't know if he has or not. I know there was like a thing going on around the Internet with him wearing a hat. That said something. I can't even remember what it said. But like there were there was some some history of that, but then I think some people said that that was fake. I at this point I don't know what's real and what's. What's fake? But when they take them to court, and they go through stuff you know we'll, we'll see what they kind of come up with that point, but think about that a registry would be so effective, because not only would that be public information, but now you're scared of getting your name on that registry. Now you need to bring more careful in terms of what you do so that you don't have all these people reporting you for misconduct and hurting individuals. There's now an actual deterrent whereas right now I don't know if there really is a deterrent. There's a lot of ways to get off with doing stupid stuff. Yeah, we need to have a chat with some police officers. Because I think it would be good to I I. Don't know their current protocols and I'm sure they're way different from state to state and stuff, but like when you're when you are police officer for X. amount of years. Do they kind of? You know today review. Do they constantly review you? It's my understanding that they do a lot of that, but but I don't. I don't really know you know. Somebody has nineteen complaints. That's been a police officer for a long time. If I was like the chief of police or something I would assume I'd be like this guys kind of on his last leg like he. He probably shouldn't be out there. He shouldn't be in the community I. Don't think you know what I mean. I would be mindful of that, but. I don't know if there's any sort of If. There's any sort of like. The way that they check on people that way check on your mental health I mean. You know you're doing some crazy shit. You're picking up a three year old child that's smashed into the pavement because it got no car, accident or somebody, got ripped apart on a motorcycle, or or you know, and then you're going to a call about You know somebody who's really high off drugs. And then he got a drunk guy at a bar. And then you have I mean this have a lot of shit and they get called as we talked about. They get spread very thin. It doesn't is unfortunate, but it doesn't seem like job that anybody really really wants especially now especially with what's going on now. And so I put them in a tough position Some people think they should get more so that we have better. They have better credentials. They get paid more. Some people are like they should get paid a lot less. Some people don't think they should exist. You like I. Mean You know we're at a weird? Weird crossroads here, but but the good thing is is that we're asking questions, and that we're. GonNa. Start to maybe make some sense of and figure it out now. You know my son was. Was We're watching some of the stuff on the news and like you know. The the police officers are hitting these people you guys price. All the same footage was like on day two or day. Three police officers are bashing these people, men and women white and black. In the legs of police officers, hitting them in the legs, and so me, and my son had a good conversation by like what do they do? You know, do they? Do they retreat? They were told to go there, and they were told to hold the line somewhere. And you got to think some of these police officers. Some of these men and women are are kind of maybe militant people to begin with a little bit I'm not saying that in a bad way I'm just saying that they they. WanNa follow through on protocol. There are people that like protocol. Yeah, and they. They like following their kind of rule followers. Follow the rules. They had an assignment. They're going out there to try to do it. They told somebody not to cross the line ten times. The person cross the line. They tell the person and other ten times tell person several times I know. There's other cops that don't have any patients for it whatsoever and. Maybe even go on the attack earlier, but I'm just going based off of what I was seeing in this one particular. You know video shot, and then they're firing off tear gas and it looks like it looks like another country, right? We're not used to. Oh, you're not used to seeing. That in this country that often you know, it looks like we're just looking at another country. It's like holy crap was. What's going on out there and then? You know president. Trump calls in the national guard. And its like does that make sense that make sense to pull in more in O- more backup. To let people just overrun everything. Do we just say fuck it not even call in the National Guard and just call in the military. Flat out. Like that's there's some people that. That in their head. That's rational. What's his pull in? Let's let's just pull in the marines. Let's just pull in. You know who whoever you think you've. Let's let's pull. Let's poem people that have been at war for a longtime. Let's take that I'm not saying it's a good idea. I'm just saying this is what some people are thinking, and some people think do nothing. Some people think just vanished the streets just like. Let people run amok. Let people do what they want, but then those protesters might be. Hurting each other because you end up with like a mob mentality. I don't. I don't know if I would ever. Be In a protest. especially like a as a younger person I think I would be probably more scared of it than anything. But if I was to go to a protest, eighteen or nineteen, I can picture. Kicking a car because my friends did you know butt slamming a window with Iraq and Kinda running away? Just because you're kidding you, you're just mono. You're fucking experimenting with Your Life and experimenting with what you're doing. And what if that rock the through hit somebody in the head or something like he just? I don't know you're just a mob mentality. Everybody else's kicking stuff. Everybody else's causing a Ruckus as well you get caught up in the emotion I mean I. Don't know you guys. I'm sure you've all been to concerts and stuff before go to concert and music starts going, and you know people start getting excited and you kinda. Get goosebumps like you get these feelings. That Kinda. Give you an energy. They otherwise wouldn't have and if you're in like a big. A big protests like that and people have. A lot of energy going the cars already beat to Shit. It already says fuck you on the side of it, and whatever else it says on the side of it. So, you're dislike. Knock it out window wherever. I mean I can I can see that happening with the younger people that are better going into those things, and I'm not saying I understand that there's some differences between some of the protesters and some of the vandalizing some of the. People that are looting and burning shutdown I understand that but. I'm just saying I can see how you can get caught up in those scenarios. Yeah! I mean you see the footage of Santa Monica on. If you guys saw that, but like just. Like broad daylight people walking around like they just looted like apple store, and like you know holding amax and one in each hand and cops this flying everywhere, and it's just happening on like literally. Every business was getting smashed or like an ATM. Machine was like trying to get cracked open. It was not so when somebody sees that there's. That's not helping like the 'cause. It's not protesting like yeah. Where's the military now? Then it's like guys. That's cool. But again, other people are like no just let them whatever I think their system I think apple, and maybe a couple of other companies were they were like four it. They're like go for him. Wow, this, fuck it, but they did. Shut down their phones. Phones are disabled, so you can't do anything, but they just said we'll just rebuild it. You know that I think that's a decent way of looking at it, you know. What's the money? Yeah, what's what's the? What's the other way of of? What's the way of protecting it? You know you put people out there. Machine guns I duNno, doesn't that doesn't sound. You know imagine you mow down fifty people with machine guns because they were going to. Light a building on fire. The gun front of the Apple Store Yeah I don't know. I don't Elon. Musk we'll get this figured out you will. We'll email him, and then he'll solve everything. He's got handle. Right. I mean he launched a fucking car into space. Pause! that. Now. There's a Tesla floating around out there, yeah? That wasn't on the shuttle launch was wasn't recent. It was a while ago. I didn't know about this just because test. Car on its way to Mars and you're not where. Oh Man, I feel so unaware crazy. happened. He just did it just because he can. That's even better about it. Have you guys seen his his child's name? Oh, yeah, you named it like x five seven. Whatever something right? Yeah, it's like x the a whatever like. A number in there or something or yeah, yeah, it's a ex. Ash something something. There's a few numbers at the end. Does he pronounce certain way, or is it just like the kids model number? No, the kit kit sounds like a model number pretty much, but like the the the and the weird e is pronounced ash. What's IT based off of video game or something right? The date. Deus, ex or Deus ex hurry pronounced that You, guys know that our boy Angelo who we recently had do some. Media stuff for us. He's like top fifteen in the world at A. How should not forget the game? What's the game has a battle battle royal on it four nine smash. Oh fortnight is not only not for now is. Go Wow. He's top fifteen in the world in warzone. I gotta get. It makes sense that's crazy. Yeah I forget what his handlers Chubby something. Hit then yes, so his kid's name is ex ash twelve. and. What's it based off of you? Okay, let's see. Let's. About the SPACEX unions. Lots of. But. Yeah, it's it's. It's different for sure. Okay actually here we go here. We go since we're on this x is the unknown variable Ash, my elven spelling of a I love or artificial intelligence, eight twelve precursor to the S. seventeen, our favorite aircraft, no weapons, no defenses just speed graydon battle but non-violent. Sure Yeah Surfing. Sounds, good to me. Until. Somebody does the eight thirteen. Their next kid. All right I think that's it for today. What do you guys think I? Think so thank you everybody for taking out today's episode. Sincerely appreciate that for more information on Piedmont Tease, please check out the. Youtube and facebook description, and the I tunes shuts down there in the description thing there. Please make sure you fall in the podcast at Mark Bells Power Project on INSTAGRAM AT MB power project on twitter, and if he has missed our call in show, please make sure you text hootenanny hootenanny show. If you don't want to miss another one, please text two, zero, six, seven, three, seven, seven, three, six nine. You can take whatever you want. Although Jesse verdicts, said everybody texts, the term Farts, and you guys get notified the next time. We have a a call in show you re. You'll receive a text message right when we go live. My instagram is at Andruzzi insieme. Screaming Youtube NCA union on talk and twitter. I'm getting sore. These last couple of workouts really yeah. I'm not even doing anything either. That's the worst part not even really lifted. Anything left forearms toast right now and getting killed out there. Maybe I should just quit. I'm mark. smelly bell strings never a weakness week. There's never strength catch y'all ADA.

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540: Daryl Davis | A Black Man's Odyssey in the KKK Part Two

The Jordan Harbinger Show

54:12 min | Last month

540: Daryl Davis | A Black Man's Odyssey in the KKK Part Two

"Coming up next on the jordan harbinger shell. He thinks man. I just had a three hour conversation with the black guy and we didn't come to blows with that guy said about such and such it makes sense of what he said about whatever is true and then they're confused because they realize the truth came from a black person which does not compute properly said. He began having cognitive dissonance. Which turns into a dilemma. Do i believe what that darryl guy said. Should i disregard his skin color and believed the truth and changed my ideological path. Or shall i look at skin color and continue living lie even though i know what he said was true. That's a struggle for them and in most cases it will follow the truth. Welcome to the show. I'm jordan harbinger on the jordan. Harbinger show we decode the stories. Secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people we have indepth conversations with people at the top of their game. Astronauts and entrepreneurs spies and psychologists even the occasional national security advisor arms trafficker or war correspondent and each episode turns our guests wisdom into practical advice that you can use to build a deeper understanding of how the world works and become a better critical thinker. If you're new to the show where you're looking for a handy way to tell your about it. We've got those episodes starter. Packs beezer collections of episodes organized by topics that help new listeners. Get a taste of everything that we do here. On the jordan harbinger. Show just visit jordan. Harbinger dot com slash start. That'll help you get started or if you wanna help somebody else get started. Of course. I always appreciate that. Now this is part. Two with daryl davis the jazz musician who helps klu klux klan members get out of the clan by befriending them. Oh and did i mention. He's black nude self. That's a quite defeat there. He's starting with a little bit of a handicap trying to make friends with clansman but he's managed to do a great job. If you haven't heard part one yet go back and listen to part one that will get you situated here partout if you're joining us for to welcome back. Let's dive right in. You don't seem to be offended by the racist and hateful commentary coming from clansmen or other people to your face right. So how did you develop the ability. To what do you call it. Compartmentalize that or or not. Allow it to get to you. How did you. How did you develop that. Because i know who i am and you cannot define me unless you know me you know so i just meet this guy. Ten minutes ago. He walks in the room to be interviewed. And he's telling me that. I'm a criminal because you know black people are prone to crime. I asked the question hopping you hate. You don't even know me. And some of the answers are black. People prone to crime. Where's the evidence of that. One should davis. All you have to do is look at our prison system. There are more black people in prison than white people. What he's telling me is true as esa fat. I'm so the data shows that but he's not looking at the reason why they're more blacks in prison. He's not looking at the imbalance and judicial system that puts black people in prison for things that white people get to go home for or get shorter sentences for whatever ati seizes them were blasting prison than whites so therefore are probably more to crime to white people. That's the narrative benefits. So i don't push. I just listen to him now. When he first walked in the room in sees me his wall goes right up. Because i'm not the object of his affection right. I'm black. that's why he joined the plan so his wall is up. He's on the on the attack. His job is to let me know my place. My place is the place of somebody inferior. He is superior he is the supremacist right. I'm not supreme so we have to get that established as well. I'm prone to crime. I listen he tells me that. The black people are inherently lazy. That we prefer to scam the government welfare system. We always have a handout for a freebie. I listen and he goes on to say that. Black people are born with smarter brains than white people. The larger the brain capacity for intelligence smarter the brain the lower. The i q so now. He's calling me dumb and saying that this is evidenced by the fact that dubbed black kids year after year consistently score lower on the. Sat's the white kids again. This is true all right absolutely true. He sees the data. He makes that narrative in his mind. He's not considering. Y you know where to most black kids go to school in the inner city where to most likely to school in the suburbs. We know the suburbans lose are much better equipped than the inner city. Schools white kids who go to school in the inner city also score very low blatch is go to school in the suburbs store. Much hotter so it has nothing to do with the color of the child's skin or the size of the child's brain but has everything to do with the quality of educational system in which that child is enroll. But you know if not saying all that he's seen the data the stats on the scores. So he's convinced. And now because i'm not pushing that that wall is coming down the temperature coming down because he is so used to push back. You call some black guy you know a criminal calling lazy tellies donald the small brains you gonna get some pushback. I'm not pushing back. I'm the ceo role. And so he's temperatures coming down walls coming down and his getting furious as to how i'm picking this so if i were to push back. When he first started doing this his ears will be shut. He's shut me up here when i to say but when the wall is down and he's curious as to how i feel about what he's saying his ears open so once he finishes exhausting office vitry all then i respond. It's my turn to talk at. He's ready to listen. However i could go on the offense. I could say no you are the criminal people like you are the ones hanging black men from trees dragging behind pickup trucks blowing up churches and all that kind of stuff and i would be one hundred percent correct. The clan has a vast history of that. But if i did that the wall will go right. Back up e. b. grant right so rather than go on the attack on the offense. I go on the defense i say. Listen man i hear you. I what you're saying. However i'm black. I don't have a criminal record. My mom and dad didn't have a criminal record as far as welfare goes. I've never been on welfare. My mother and father whenever on welfare as as far as my brain size goes i've never measured it but i'm sure it's the same size everybody else's and my sat scores. They got me into college. As i've always done my homework on this guy. I know he barely made it out of high school. So i'm about so something in his face. Sam smarter than you. I know that. I have more intelligence in my little fingernail than he and his whole plan rupert together. But i know that in his face. Listen my. Sat scores got me into college knowing that he didn't go. I said so in how to explain that he has to come up with something. So what happens then is this. This has happened more times than i can count. They go home and they reflect on on what transpired during the day. Just like you a guy will be before we go to bed and he thinks man. I just had a three hour conversation with the black guy you know. And we didn't come to blows with that guy said about such and such it makes sense of what he said about whatever is true and then they're confused because they realize the truth came from a black person which did not properly so. They began having a cognitive dissonance which turns into a dilemma. Do i believe that darrow guys said. Should i disregard his skin color and believed the truth and change my ideological pass or should i look at skin color and continue living a lie even though i know what he said was true. That's a struggle for them and in most cases they will follow the truth and they will not overnight but they'll change over time others will go to their graving hateful by an races but you always wanna know who you are before you go into one of these situations. Let somebody who just met me ten minutes ago. Define me as as a criminal and whatever else now if my parents were to tell me daryl you know i think your problem to crime and you know you kinda lazy. You're also kind of dumb. I might believe them because they brought me into this world. They raised me but not somebody walks in my room. People give you their robes or have been giving you their robes when they leave the clan. This is so interesting right. it's a bit like trophies. But the people changing their minds and getting out is the real reward. I assumed absolutely. Where do you keep those. I mean i'm just imagining walk into your house and there's like this huge room with klan robes all over the place and it's like wait. Darren living room. I have one right here can i. Yeah absolutely yeah a couple of flaws it but the vast majority i keep locked up. Offsite that makes sense. Yeah so yeah. You're this was when i was showing on another call. Wow this is the symbol. But oakland rooms used and of course you see the flags. Yeah okay this guy. He was a grand dragon. Grand dragon from maryland. With robert white robert white went to prison for four years for conspiring to bomb a synagogue in baltimore. He continued running the clan while he was in prison. There is vice guy and then he got out he took it back over the running a couple of years later he went back to prison for assault with intent to murder two black men with a shotgun. Tease i saw. He did three years for that one so he's been seven years in prison. I contacted him right before. You got out of prison. The last time and i i didn't tell them i was black and i told you i'm writing a book on the clan. I like to interview him. He wrote me back and then everything wrong with the world was because of the blacks jews. All will be a lot better without any of them. You know all that kind of stuff. He was them really violent and vehemently races and he said you know we can meet you know when he got out in a couple of months and this was in november and in december. He sent me a christmas card that he had he had made in the prison. Don't sell their. They gotta make your own and he would do to get out in february in january. He writes me and he's all upset. How come you didn't tell me you're black. You send some of his people to check me out somewhere. And they reported back in that. I was black now. He thinks he's being deceived. I'm setting up. Whatever i wrote him back listen man. What is make it. You know if you're going to tell me the truth the truth change if you talk to white person that you talk to a black person i said all i want to know what you're thinking. So he said okay. We did meet and again. He explained the was black people in the jews and on and on we kept meeting kept meeting. He began toning down over time not overnight but over time and he finally got out of it as a clan leader. You don't get paid for say you might get a small stipend out of the dunes but you can't make a living you can't pay your mortgage in renton stuff but your kids to school. You have to have a regular job grand dragon. Imperial wizard exalted cyclops. Great tighten. These are all titles. Which don't syria any money. So like boy scout leader. You have to have a regular job. His regular job when he was doing that senator bob and stuff he was a baltimore city. Police officers loud own my god before he went to prison. Obviously yeah and there were others and they're still are others on that force okay. It's very serious. What year was this. What year was this that he was In the eighties. I guess that gives me a little bit of comfort. But not not like a ton he was in it since the sixties and know when he got out there that was of a uniform the robe of the things that he gave me. Wow united became best of friends how people even get into the clan. These days. I mean i assume recruiting is slowed down quite a bit well. recruiting no. They're always trying to recruit but now there there's a lot of competition so many other groups ran i. I started this stuff. It was just the plan some neo nazi groups. To white power skinheads and today you got the clan. The neo nazis white power skinheads the all right the oath keepers. The problem is the boo boys at three percenters structure. The creator in all these other ones. And they're all you know trying to recruit because what's happening in jordan is this. This is what the media does not talk about but this is what's happening in this country using background i. This country was built on a two tier society wife supremacy at the top slavery at the bottom. That's what built this country and as we progress through the decades. We progress like this. No maybe like this but never like this is always this hierarchy so so for those of you who are listening and not watching. Basically hands are staying parallel with the gap in between them. So it's like we're not closing the gap. we're not progressing on equal terms. Were just keeping the gap. Maybe it's smaller than it was before. But the gap is still there. And it's just we're progressing upwards but not necessarily together at the same pace so when i was a kid the black population in this country was twelve percent native americans one percent hispanic people two percent asians almost three percent white people were Around eighty four eighty six percent back then. Doing the math in my head is not working. Yeah okay got it okay. I'm trying to what you want to add. Now it's not it's not even important. I was just doing it out of habit. And it was like seven hundred then. I was like It's a relevant no other other. Oh right right right sure. Now that makes sense under the name. The majority ones asian. The native americans hispanics the blacks and the whites. You got other mixes and things so today. Native americans remain at one percent. Laugh people remain at twelve point nine almost thirteen percent so we really have not grown. asians have almost doubled. I think five point. Nine six percent. hispanics have more than doubled. You know it's like seventeen point something percent so if you take twelve percent black and seventeen percent hispanic twenty nine percent non white right there. This is happening and it is predicted that in the year. Twenty forty two which is only two decades one years from now this country for the first time in history will be fifty fifty fifty percent white fifty percent non white which includes agent hispanic black and other again when you have sat on the throne of power for four hundred years. You don't wanna get off on now. There is a large percentage of quite americans who say that doesn't bother me evolution. I don't have a problem with that. He already made some kids that are other at check. They're going to be like there's not enough boxes or maybe there are too many. I don't know dad. what do i check. I have solutions for that. And i'm gonna turn you onto guy you need to see. His film allies steel by. Tell you about him in a second. So it's by those boxes but there's also a large swap. The population better getting freaked out about that. They don't want to give up that throat of power that they've maintained for four hundred years all these groups said come join us. We take our country back. You know we're gonna build that wall not send those people back to where they belong. What these people are telling me the clan the nazis. the alright tell me daryl. I don't want my grandkids to be brown. They call it the browning of america or white genocide through miscegenation and they freaked out about that with freaking out about is their identity is being slowly erase. Are you familiar with the term white flight from detroit. So i think that's probably where that might have even originated or at least that's an early example of it right. Yeah with my friends in detroit. Jeff scoop you're listening to the jordan harbinger show with our guest. Daryl davis we'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by simplisafe. Remember feeling you got as a kid getting tucked into bed or the feeling you get now in the arms of somebody you love safe insecure a feeling of security. That only comes through a human connection. 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I'm a big fan of therapy and a bigger fan of better. Help equally big fan. I guess you would say because it's also therapy but as we begin to see the light at the end of the cova tunnel a lot of people are still feeling down. There emotionally out of sorts. You don't have to be like despondent right at a total loss. But if you're feeling a little bit off your relationships are suffering. That is definitely a sign that you should talk to somebody whether you're feeling anxious or you're struggling in your career. You're having trouble sleeping. Online therapy can help. And i know some people are skeptical about this. But i i'm urging you go to better help dot com slash jordan. Fill out this very simple questionnaire the hook you up in about forty eight hours with a professional licensed therapist can communicate weekly via secure video phone or live chat sessions with your therapist basically based on your level of comfort of course so no more driving no more parking. No more weird awkward waiting rooms none of that. You can do the therapy on your schedule from your car from your bed wherever you happen to be. Online therapy is very convenient. And very affordable and our listeners. Get ten percent off your first month of online therapy at better help dot com slash jordan. That's better h. E. l. p. dot com slash jordan. Now back to daryl davis on the jordan harbinger show. I feel like i've heard of him. Because isn't he. He was running like a nazi group in detroit. Yeah he had the largest neo nazi group in this country the nsm national socialist movement. He was for twenty seven years. Twenty five of those twenty seven years. He was the commander the leader of that group today. He's out of that. How in part due to myself and a muslim woman today. He works very hard with this organization beyond barriers to help de radicalize others in that movement and help prevent young people from joining these movements. He's a great guy to talk to very very good friend of mine but anyway back to white flight it barely exists today because anywhere you go now. The landscape has changed colors so much anywhere. You go is already somebody. They who doesn't look like. Yeah where are you gonna fly to go find do now. You know that airline doesn't go there. So people are freaking out about their identity being erased and so they're they're running and joining these groups that promise to take the country back and send those people back where they belong or get rid of them and so when they go in join these groups and the group fails to take the country back some of them get frustrated. And they say you know. What if the clamp can't do it or neo. Nazis can't do it. I'll do it myself. And that's when they go off solo and they go by yourself into a black church in charleston south carolina and shoot and murder. Nine black people conducted bible study or they go to the tree of life synagogue in pittsburgh and murder eleven jews or walmart in el paso or the sikh indian temple in oak okri kansin. You know these are called lone wolves and as we get closer and closer to this milestone. we're gonna unfortunately we're gonna see more and more of these lone wolves in this country. Which is why they need to be addressed now. We have intelligence groups organizations in this country but have operatives beckon infiltrate some of these routes and gathering tolerance and reported back. You know they want. They fit the profile and join us a member or whatever. I have foiled some of these plots. For example a few months ago you you will recall the group in michigan that was going to kidnap and murder. The governor we already had intelligence operatives in that route posing as one of those people which is how we got that intelligence and foiled that plot however while we have the ability to infiltrate some of these groups. There is no ability to infiltrate a lone wolf as one person. How do you get inside. One person you can't so this is what you know. We need to address this problem now. These people are becoming unhinged. That's what that insurrection was all about at the capitol just twenty minutes from where. I'm sitting right now. You know you see somebody walking through the capital with the confederate battle flag and a camp auschwitz t-shirt shirt on notice about not about tax reform or socializing healthcare or something else. I saw that guy. That's a when when people are willing to wear these t shirts sweatshirts that. Say these blatant slogans. I mean they're they're not hiding it at all and i think it's unfortunately it's almost behind the laughter curtain. Will you go guys guy like three teeth wearing a stupid t shirt prime made in his basement. He looks like he hasn't showered in a week. So we don't think that guy's dangerous we just think that guy is such an inbred idiot but you know. We don't look at the fact that he's got eight thousand rounds of ammunition in his basement for the race. War whatever. exactly raho as r. A. h. o. w. a. rojo. I never heard that. That's the term for the race war except for racial holy war. Rojo r. a. h. o. w. guided. Okay god. yeah you know if you remember back in the eighties. Maybe when russia invaded afghanistan with their tanks and everything and these people were taking sticks and stones and throwing them at the tanks. But we were laughing. What are they going to a rock at a tank or stick at a tank we laughed. We'll guess what some years later yet though soviets. They rolled right out of there after a while. They wrote out of the extra while those same people who are throwing rocks in the tanks are the same people who took down our tallest buildings and put a hole in the pentagon. So you're at the same analogy as your person you know. Guy doesn't look like he's had a shower for weakening inbred whatever else. He's got eight thousand rounds about munitions. Put it yeah. This is not to be laughed as we take him seriously. Yeah it it definitely should scare us. I mean we see we see this now. We hear the talk all the time. People are shouting it from the rooftops a lotta. These groups are and where ignoring it which is at our own peril. of course. i thought it was interesting though. In the documentary the people that seem to be the hardest on you and frankly the most disrespectful refusing to shake your hand yelling you flying off the handle. Not letting you talk. We're actually the these black activists. And i wonder what you make of that. They were really hard on you in the documentary. Yup well let me address. Cup open one. They didn't know me and they didn't really know my background or understand and didn't want to at the time. Okay they hit me more than white person. Because i looked like them and they felt that i was a race traitor. An uncle. tom orioles. I was selling and i should be spending more time working with them. Uplift in the black community than as a it sitting down with my clan buddies so my clan friends hanging out They don't realize the importance of dialogue and communication. Let's say a clansman saw you out with a black girl. Maybe a married to one of your dating one whatever they would hate you more than her because you are of the supreme race and you have a lower yourself. You have defiled yourself to be out with that thing. That's the mentality you know so you are a disgrace to your race. That's how they thought about me. If i would open up a book or magazine and i saw picture of some black guy shaking hands a guy. A roman hood. I have a visceral reaction. But me. I would turn the page and read the story to find out. Why is this happening. Oh oh i get. It is pretty cool. They jump to a conclusion. Don't turn the page make their own narrative and that's it. Yeah so a year later. They reached out to me and we got together for dinner and we sat down. We talked. they've seen on interviews. It seemed different things and they were beginning to get it and we agreed to work together because what they do is important. What i do is important but the important thing is that we coordinate with each other. They're working in the systemic racism world. I'm working with individuals but it all has to be done. Racism is multifaceted thing. There's no one shoe fits all right. Y'all do what you do best as we need to work together and we started to do that then about a year or so ago the older guy he fell off the wagon again and reverted back to the same mentality that you saw in the the film. Unfortunately it happens. Let me address. Black lives matter because they were of the baltimore laugh. Lives matter faction and i don't say chapters faction because laughing matter is not really an organization is the movement and the founders had a great idea when they put it together the idea they had co opted that for martin luther king and rosa parks in the bus boycott. Rosa parks was not the first black woman to refuse to give them the bus. There were others but it didn't make news nationally only made news around montgomery alabama. So we're dr king. Wanted to do was put the national spotlight on it so to montgomery in a fishbowl and maybe that pressure would cause the change those laws. So that's what he did. He took a year of the boycott and lo and behold the montgomery bus lines change their policies and blasphemous of wherever they want to sit in worth so in two thousand thirteen in the wake of the trayvon martin killing murder black lives matter was founded and the founders tabet same idea of putting the plight of black men who for lack of a better term were being murdered by white police officers for holding their wallet holding their cell phone whatever they got to go to their graves where white men in the same situation. You've got to go home or go to jail. Some of them got to go to burger king on the way to jail. I'm talking about devon routes that story right. yeah i didn't know. He went to burger king. But i guess that's they arrested him and put him in the car. He said he was hungry. The cops took him to burger chain and bought him a hamburger and took him to jail. The process of that is yeah. That is something that is really so that needed be spotlighted. I would imagine you've seen some serious clan craziness right. I mean they burn crosses and things like that on people's lawns. But i know they also do that like in private and it's probably two different rituals right. Yeah okay let me let me give it to you when they take a five or ten foot cross and put it on your lawn at set it aflame that is called a cross burning and that is a threat is meant to intimidate you the messages we know who you are seasoned exist. Move out or the next time we come. We mean business. That is a warning we know you are. You're a black family in white neighborhood. You're a gay couple. You are a jew in a gentle neighborhood. Whatever the case. You're you know gay whatever it is. They don't like their warning. You we know you are. Stop move out or we're coming back with probably going to come to your house. I when they have their rallies they have a a twenty or thirty foot cross. Both crosses are wrapped in burlap. The burlap has been soaked and what they call clan cologne which is actually diesel fuel kerosene. Yeah and they set it aflame when they do this at. The rally is a ceremonial thing. And they're all in their rosen hoods and what happened. I've seen this many times. They have their torches plasma class. Women they make a big wide circle around this tall cross. They got these tortures that are on fire and they move around the around the cross clockwise and then one of the leaders of rand dragged impure wizard will say clansman hulk and they'll stop klansman's face the cross they all turn in and then he'll say for my country and they all repeat for my country lee bow For my god for my for my race while my rates for my plan for my plan clansman approach the cross and they all close in around the basic across the twitches plaza across and they throw their torches down at the foot of the cross and this thing goes aflame and that gives them speeches and all that kind of stuff and then they have condiments and that's the end of the rally. Wow so let's across lighting across burning home. This is the jordan harbinger. Show with our guest. Daryl davis will be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by cleo ever wonder how the ecommerce brands you admire do it how they know just the right messages to send to the right people at the right time. 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So let's say you're interested in lowering your rate on car insurance visit progressive dot com to get a quote with all the coverage you want. You'll see progressives rate and then their tool of provide options from other companies all lined up and easy to compare so that all you have to do is choose the rate and coverage you like progressive gives you options so you can make the best choice for you. You could be looking forward to saving money in the very near future. More money for say a pair of noise cancelling headphones and insta- pot more puzzles a mattress. Whatever brings you join a good night. Sleep get a quote today at progressive dot com. It's one small step. You can do today. That will make a big impact on your budget tomorrow. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates comparison rates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. Thanks so much for listening to the show. I love recording these. I love creating them for you. Y'all are so kind to me online. I love conversing with you there. And if you want to support those who make this show possible. We put all of the promo codes and url's for all the discount all the sponsors you hear all in one place go to jordan harbinger dot com slash deals. That's where you can support those who support us. And don't forget we've got worksheets for many episodes drills exercises other takeaways from the show. Those are all in one place. That link is in the show notes at jordan harbinger dot com slash. Podcast now for the conclusion of my conversation with darryl davis. What is it like standing there as a black man in a klan rally and they're letting across on fire i mean surely yes. You're friends with some of the people there but there's got to be some guys that are like what are you doing. What's this guy here mean. It can't be sort of a welcome warm. Welcome right right absolutely. It's kind of surreal. It's kind of surreal to say the least. Yeah but when you are invited by the grand dragon or the imperial wizard you know the top hierarchy even though the subordinate some of the subordinates. Don't like you don't want you there. They will not do anything to you because they know better. If the higher up invited you hands off good otherwise you will reap innocent punishment. Now you have to go to a rally where you're not invited you to show up. I wouldn't recommend that. I've done that before you know but i've been very fortunate. There are those who who don't feel that you should be there. This is sacred ground. you're defining it. What sort of i don't know you probably wouldn't even share a c. I mean you gotta respect their stuff if you find something that they don't want to share publicly you probably don't break their trust right like they gotta they gotta have some secret rituals and stuff that you know of that they. You don't share in fact a real funny story me give you the hierarchy first of all today. There is no such thing as the ku klux klan. Just like there is no black lives matter all these different factions. So there was the ku klux plan. And then it's splintered into awesome faction had fallings out in whatever else you have all these groups and they all are thomas and their chapters of each clan group wherever you might have the dixie nights of the pew klux klan. The rebel nights the ku klux klan the confederate nights. You know whatever nights. These are all separate economist. Groups now they all have the same basic bylaws the same secret handshake same passwords say titles and the same colors on their robes. That doesn't it. The you know the ranks but they are autonomous and they don't like each other. It's funny because you know when you see them all in public together. They will hold a united front but behind closed. Doors arrivals with other competing for members and stuff exactly exactly and what happens is some guy. Is third grade dropout pumping gas at the gas station. And you know he's vicious and so forth you know ramp it raises. He moved up the ranks grand dragon or imperial wizard. Whatever and next thing you know. He was driving some twenty year old. Beat up chevrolet and now he's driving a cadillac You know two thousand twenty one. He's still works at the gas station. Something's happening he's pocketing clan dues for his own gain. Dukes people get mad. They leave that plan. Go join another new form around all that kind of stuff so and then some people. They want racial change to happen. Institutionally they don't wanna go out and hang. People were or beat up people. They want to have their members run for public office. County commissioner sheriff. Things like that as they go join some klan group but the clan route turns out to be very violent so they leave and they'll join a more you know docile one others joined the plant hoping to do some night writing now kick. Somebody's rear end. But this group is more docile so they gotta go find a violent route so they splinter off. You got have all these different factions. If you have your chapter of the plan established a your state and in another state or in multiple states you can then consider yourself to be a national plan therefore you must have a national leader oversees all the states. We call our national leader. The president they call. there's the imperial wizard. Anybody who's prefixed with the word imperial means. That person is a national officer. Wizard being the top and imperial calif be like a vice president vice wizard and the secretary treasurer on and on then the next high level down is the state neater each state in which you have a chapter has to have a leader. We call the state of the governor. They call. there's the grand dragon and then a brand platelets will be like lieutenant governor and then secretary-treasurer within the state you have counties. When did you say kay lift like the muslim word for or is it klay lift playlists. Okay i misheard you but that would have been well. You're on the right track. You're on the right track. Because what they call their their bible their client handbook is called the ran. Really what is going on there. J. l. o. r. a. n. Wow yeah exactly. So you know. They appropriate everything for their own. But it's almost like if you were a troll and you're messing with them you would use those words and they're like now we're using these. That's i mean even the sort of like science fiction ranking titles which i assume just didn't age well but also they couldn't have ever thought of that. Great maybe they did in nineteen forty. A in the original plan making sixty five these peop- the founded were sips founders Former confederate officers at the end of the civil war. They wanted to keep something going. They were of scottish descent and they came from the masons scottish right and that for that. That mason was very secret organization. They have all these weird names All that not to say that all nations are planned people. Now they're not you know but that's the idea comes from Secrecy and those weird names. They've got cyclops and stuff too though right. I mean that's even more. Yeah yeah okay. So i'm getting that one. Yeah so the county leader is known. As the great titan anybody on the great level is a prefix to the word. Great music percents county level grand level state level jerry levels national level within the county. You'd have districts we call district leader the councilman the alderman. The mayor they call theirs even salted cyclops district leader and then below that is just plain white robe clansman acclaim rank and file. So you have all these different officers and it makes them feel important when these titles. That's kinda telling right with the sort of almost like exaggerated hyperbolic title kind of shows you why people might join a group like this feeling that little insignificant become an exalted cyclops. Sherby being the guy who pumps gas gets beat up by his older brothers or neighbors and whose wife left him or something kids. Don't talk to him no. I'm the grand wizard now. Like i'm a big deal right. I can't earn my way at the top. You can sorta hate your way is a big deal within plan them the invisible empires they call it now. You mentioned the secret rituals and stuff. Yeah here's a story. You'll appreciate god's honest truth. This exalted cyclops. I district leader. He's getting promoted from is august cyclops to great titan which means he's gonna be the head of the county like we will call a county manager county executives he's very lazy and he did not study his clan craft. You know you gotta take a test and go through a ritual. You be appointed characters position. It study up on it and so the thing was the rights. We're going to be done on the weekend. He calls me up in the middle of the week because he's too embarrassed he's had a month to study up this stuff. He's too embarrassed to call this grand dragon or his imperial wizard to find out what he needed to know what he needed to do because you they were took. Why do you study before you had a month ago right. So he calls me and tells me his dilemma and wants to know what he has to do because he knows i know clansman called you for a crash course in clan ideologies so he could pass his test. This called clamp grabbed. Wow so yeah fame crafts. So i told him and best there must have. I mean every time you do something like that. There must be a little seed where the person goes so. Let me get this straight added. Call daryl davis my boyfriend to tell me how to pass my clan tests. So that i can learn more about how i how were superior and i hate people who look like him like every little. It's like i'm from michigan so this analogy doesn't make sense in california but it's like when there's cracks in concrete and then you pour water in there and the water freezes it cracks. Just get a little bit bigger every single time. That's gotta be kind like that sort of yeah phenomenon. It takes a while to connect the dots. Yeah but it happens it happens. I think we've gone quite overtime here but in in closing here i'd love to get this sort of bit about space age times and stone-age minds. I'd love to kind of get that and maybe we can wrap with that. What he think. Whatever you like. Yeah well what i've said before. Is this that it bothers me a great deal that we call ourselves the greatest nation on the face of this earth. Now there's nothing wrong with being patriotic and loyal. And i am very loyal. I am very patriotic. I love my country. I does have its flaws but we are progressing and we will get to where we need to be at some point so i'm not i'm not saying anything against the country but we have to admit that there are some flaws here. I don't adhere to that statement that we are the brightest. Maybe i would bend in say that perhaps technologically. We are the greatest. After all we americans put a man on the moon. We invented that technology to put. Neil armstrong up there on the moon before anybody else and while neil armstrong was up there walking around on the moon making that famous statement one small step for man one giant leap for mankind. We were able to talk to neil armstrong via satellite radio. Phone all the way earth. All the way to the moon we americans and vented that technology. Everybody who's who's going to watch this podcast or listen to it. Every one of them has email and have a cell phone type of few words. Few numbers hit send. And you're talking to somebody right next door to your state or halfway across the country or even anywhere on the planet anywhere in the face of this earth. We invented that technology. So how is it that we as americans can talk to people as far away as the moon or anywhere on the face of this earth but yet there's so many of us who have difficulty talking to the person who lives right next door because he or she is a different color a different religion a different persuasion a different whatever or they are a family member seated at your dinner table who voted for a different candidate. And you can't talk to them anymore. How we can do that. Though that we can't carry on these conversations it seems to me that before we can call ourselves resignation of physical earth. Our ideology needs to catch up to our technology. And when we get both of those up there then we can truly brag about how great we are. so this is the twenty first century. The nazis racists nonsense does not belong to any century let alone. The twenty-first we are living in space age times but there are still too many of us thinking with stone-age minds. Daryl davis thank you so much. This is fascinating man. There's a lot. I'm sure there's even more. You're continually doing this right. This isn't like a done with. this is absolutely. Let's call this part one. You sometimes report to you. Know what are you currently working on. You're probably got a lot of friends that are sort of teeter-tottering on the edge of leaving. Whatever the clan or whatever. Other group does your. They've joined but what other products do you have going. I mean there's a documentary lincoln. The show notes. You've got a book. Are you redoing the book. I know it was a. It's been a while. I just finished second book. all right. is With my agent. Now i'm working with people like jeff scoop and beyond barriers helping him and others come out of that That radicalization and working in preventive work work with him with a group. Called parents for peace would have allowed to the parents because your kids have been involved in different kinds of things great organization on other one called parallel networks. Which is run by my good friend. Jessie morton jesse is a former al-qaeda. Extremists wow yeah by the fascinating story. I can fix you up at some of these people. That would be great. I mean al qaeda is a and nazi groups and things like that. I mean i just wanted on now. I'll be happy to. And i work with him and his group. He knows a lot about extremism and that kind of you know jihadi extremism and white supremacy. There are some parallels there in as to why people join those those groups at how to get them out at people who've been in these roofs they know their recruitment tactics to bring others in so therefore they know how to get them out as well. People jeff scoop jessie morton on what we can organization called fair which has come up with a new learning standards to address a lot of the controversy surrounding what kizer taught about racism in schools. You know is good. Crt and bad crt and you know fair is trying to get all that cleared up. So i'm happy to work with a lot of these. Different routes plan continuing to meet with white supremacists and speak to them. Go to their rallies. Try to do what i can do. My part to bring our country together and make this the greatest nation. It should be hell. Yeah thank you daryl so much this is really really interesting and we'll talk to you soon. Take care thank you. He found this episode interesting. Here's a trailer for another episode of the jordan. Harbinger show with maria kondakova. Who went from being someone who had no interest whatsoever in to raking in big bucks as an international poker champion. Here's a quick look inside. Poker is actually the perfect game for human decision making. Because it's a game of incomplete information. No one cares. Where the hell you went to school. No one cares what you look like. No one cares what you did or didn't do if you can afford the buying great so there are people sitting at the table. Some of whom have ivy league educations others of whom dropped out of high school and had to wrestle with homelessness and built up their bankroll from ten dollars and took that ten dollars doing heirs. We make decisions and incorporate things. That really shouldn't matter all the time like the weather. We don't realize that were depressed because it's raining outside instead. We're like oh life sucks. Everything sucks but it's so that if you draw someone's attention to the reason why they're feeling this way they're totally capable of discounting and saying okay. Yeah i'm depressed right now but it's because of the weather. Can you figure out not just your own triggers. But the other person stringers some people when they lose a lot. They're going to become really cautious because they don't wanna lose even more some people when they are going to become extra reckless because they want to gain it back very very quickly. Same about totally different reactions. Can i try to figure out what the psychological dynamics for this person. How did they react some people when they win a lot. They're going to become extra cautious. Now they don't wanna lose us go. I have all these chips. I want to guard them other people when they went a. They're like yeah. Let's push my advantage. Let's go if you can start to figure out and pull apart things like that. All of a sudden you have a really good psychological picture of the person and you can take advantage of. It is really a treat dan. I thought let me read more about this poker thing and decided. Hey you know what this is my. Why don't i learn poker. Why don't i actually see how far i can go. And i ended up becoming good and winning a major international title and getting a sponsorship from poker stars than joining team pro and somehow found myself as a professional player for more including how people make decisions and what poke can tell us about reading human motivation. How to spot real physical tells at the poker table in real life and how we can control and prevent emotional thinking aka going untilt checkout episode three seven one of the jordan harbinger show with maria conaco. Who what an amazing conversation right. you gotta wonder. What's the vibe. When you're having dinner with your wife in a clan member and his wife and they tell you something like well. The races shouldn't mix and you're sitting next to your caucasian wife. Just munching on a caesar salad. I don't know it's just a it's gotta be kind of awkward at points to befriend clansmen. Who are obviously saying. Well you know this new thing but not you were friends. I mean it's just got to be so exhausting this. He's obviously super charming and very very understanding reminds me that quote. From abraham lincoln. Something like do. I not destroy my enemies when i make them my friends. Brilliant quote. I'm going to make sure i got that right. I'm pretty sure that i did. This episode reminds me a bit of megan phelps. Roper the interview that i did with her. That's episode three. Oh two she left the westboro baptist church because she met her now husband on twitter. I think and they were playing words with friends or some scrabble game on the phone and the discourse slowly de radicalized her as well again. That's episode three zero to really popular episode. I highly recommend going back and checking that out and remember. If you're just talking to the same people about things they already know. Then you're preaching to the choir. You need to find someone who disagrees with you and figure out why they have that perspective. That's a teaching there. From daryl davis that i think was in his book but we didn't quite mentioned at least not verbatim during the show. He's really really good about that. And he as you can see went to an extreme to find somebody with a very different perspective on everything and remember to ask yourself. Do i want to wait and see what my society becomes or do. I want to play a part in shaping my society. The laced has documentaries and books will be in the show. Please use our website links. If you buy books from any guest on the show that always helps support us. Worksheets for the show or in the show notes transcripts are in the show notes. There's video of this interview. Going up on our youtube channel at jordan. Harbinger dot com slash. Youtube we've also got our brand new clips channel with cuts that don't make it to the show or highlights from the interviews that you can't see anywhere else jordan. Harbinger dot com slash. Clips is where you can find that. I'm at jordan harbinger on both twitter and instagram. Or just hit me unlinked and if you want to get in touch. I'm teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships using the same system software and tiny habits that i use every single day. That's our six minute networking course. It's free. i'm teaching you how to dig the well before you get thirsty. Over at jordan harbinger dot com slash. Course this shows created an association with podcast. One might team. Is jen harbinger j sanderson robert. Fogerty milio campo ian baird josh ballard and gabriel mizrahi. Remember we've raised by lifting others. The fee for the show is share it with friends when he finds something useful or interesting and again. I said this last episode. This is a fascinating conversation. It is a great jump. Start to the jordan harbinger. Show to the podcast so share this far and wide police if you know somebody who is on the fence about listening. I hope you find something. Great in every episode. Please share the show with those you care about in the meantime. Do your best to apply what you on the show so you can live what you listen and we'll see you next time. This is walk ins. Welcome with bridget. Petty i love hearing people's stories of resilience and grit this is. Why created this podcast. We are very excited to welcome. Jim gaffe again. Yasmin mohamed. Glenn beck tim dillon. Abigail schreier jeff garland ion hair seattle e sam harris. They're hiring jona goldberg ben. Shapiro glenn greenwald. Berisha colin quinn. There's a culture victimhood then. Let's tell stories of grit and survival. 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207 - A Slight Change of Plans - Maya Shankar

You Are Not So Smart

1:21:45 hr | 3 months ago

207 - A Slight Change of Plans - Maya Shankar

"For the time being this show is still a one person operation. And if you'd like to support this show and its mission its goals. It's attempt to make incredible programming for you. All about psychology neuroscience and everything in between when it comes to reasoning and decision making and judgment and persuasion and conspiratorial thinking. Go to patriotdepot dot com slash. You're not so smart. Pitching in at any amount. Gets you the show ad free. But the higher amounts get you. Posters t-shirts signed books and other stuff another way to support. The show is just tell everybody about it. You can follow the show on twitter at not smart blog. Follow me at dave mccready and find all the past episodes at stitcher soundcloud. Itunes omni spotify or you are not so smart dot com. I've got loads of announce was coming up for. There's the book how minds change coming up later on in the year. Also live shows are coming back. We're going to take the show on the road. There's a place in new york city. Caveat and i'm partnering with them to bring you lots and lots of live shows. They're at their venue soon. In fact august. I'm planning on having the first new live show in august of two thousand twenty one. I'm also making documentary series for himalayas about the history of the idea and the etymology of the word genius which includes creative genius intelligence and all sorts of the things. Look for that coming up in july. And you may have seen this on twitter johannesson of it's okay to be smart and i have been working all cove along with the great james burke to write a new connection series called the knowledge web. And it's ready to go and we are just looking for a good home for it so if you have any way of helping us Finally streaming service that wants to be the home of the new connection series. Just email me tweet me. We'll talk about it. That's coming up soon. We're talking to a couple of organizations right now but we're still considering ourselves playing the field as it were. Also i've got so many interviews already done for future episodes Cunanan we're going to have a big deep diving cunanan coming up. I've got another episode coming up about jerks at work and how to deal with them another one about the intricacies of mathematics and all sorts of strange topologies. That help us understand how minds work and so much more lots and lots lots of new material coming your way starting with this episode. All about what happens when circumstances in life lead you to a slight change of plans happened. Welcome to the or not so smart. Podcast episode two seven. Not so i was riding in my car. i'm driving and this clansman was sitting in my passenger seat and we got on the on the topic of crime and he made dimension that black people are born with a gene that makes them violent. And i said look. I'm as black as anybody you've ever seen. I have never done a drive by or a carjacking. How do you explain that. This man did not hesitate one second. He answered me instantly. He said you gina's latent. It hasn't come out yet. That's daryl davis a blues musician and yeah you heard right. He's driving in his car with a member of the ku klux klan. I was speechless. I was dumbfounded. And he's sitting next to me all snug and secure you see you have nothing to say and i thought about it for a moment rather than attacking. Just say it's not true. It's not true. I said to him. I said you know why people have a gene within them that make them serial killers and he said why would you say that. I said well face it name me. Three black serial killers. He thought about it. You couldn't name anybody you couldn't dude. I rattled off charles. Manson jeffrey dahmer. Henry lucas john. Wayne casey ted bundy david berkowitz son of sam albert desalvo's the boston strangler. And i said son you are a serial killer. And he said daryl. I've never killed anybody. I said genus laden hasn't come out yet he said well that's and i. It is stupid and he got very very quiet. And i can tell that the gears in in his head was spinning super by burning a hole in there and then he later he changed the subject but within five months. This guy with the twin I'm david mccranie this is. You're not so smart podcast. But that clip. You just heard of daryl davis talking about his work changing the minds of klu klux klan members encouraging them to think about their reasoning their justifications their attitudes and their values and how doing that can affect their beliefs. Especially when it's done by a black man who has built an incredible rapport with someone in that organization. All that comes from another podcast one. That just came out hosted by. Maya shankar called a slight change of plans. Maya and her team reached out to me a few weeks ago. Noting that a lot of my reason episodes and a lot of my research into my upcoming book titled how minds change overlapped with. Maya's work on this new show which explores how various fascinating people have changed their minds often after something. Unexpected happened in the story of their lives. One of guests. Megan phelps roper was also recently guest on this show and dale davis is one of her guests who i've long wanted to feature on this podcast and hopefully we'll one day but there's already an episode all about his adventures changing people's minds so as podcasters do from time to time. Maya wondered if she could come on this podcast to promote her podcast and seeing as our interests and obsessions and work and overall mission aligned so strongly. I said absolutely. I would love to do that. Let's do it. And here's a little bit more from that episode with davis darryl would play a gig at this bar and he would invite clan members to watch him play. This is one of those things that makes daryl's so unusual. I mean for me. A huge part of what makes someone who they are is their belief system and so if we share the same taste in music. That's fine that's great. But if i then find out there a flagrant racist that's going to fully eclipse everything else about them. So hadn't sterile look past that. He says it's not like that. He wasn't looking past it he wanted to learn from it. See darryl had spent his early childhood overseas in a school he describes as a united nations for little kids race was always in the background but when he moved back to the states when he was ten he couldn't escape racism and ever since then he's been interested in why people hate. I had had an experience at the age of ten where some racist people threw rocks and bottles at me during a parade in which i was the only black participant and never had. This happened to me before i was perplexed as to why people were doing this and when later my parents explained that it was racism my ten year old brain not process the idea that someone who had never seen me before who had never spoken with me and you nothing about me would want to inflict pain upon me for no other reason than the color of my skin. You know That just did not compete with me. While later when. I realized this was true. There are people like that. I formed a question in my mind which was can you hate me when you don't even know me and some people would just say well daryl that's just the way it is when it's not just the way it is. There has to be a reason behind it. Well it's always been that way. That was not good enough for me. I wanted to get to the nucleus of it. So this episode. Is this in this league fascinating to me. But the twelve part season of a slight change of plans also includes tiffany haddish. Who went from foster care to an emmy award winning comedian. Casey must graves talks about her psychedelic experiences. Which change perspectives on art. A sixteen year old and a teacher who survived the sandy hook shootings who talk about how they continue to process change a janitor who accidentally invited flaming hot cheetos and they'll davis who convinced hundreds of kkk members to lead the clan. But there's also an episode with an extremely famous person who's show explores a very specific change that my asked me not to give away but here's some audio from that episode. It is a constant balancing act. It's everything from how you dress and you know what your hairstyle is to how loudly you speak or how loudly you laugh or you know who you are seen with or i mean. It's just a constant judgment. Hillary rodham clinton's had a complicated relationship with the public in the nineteen seventies when she challenged the cookie cutter role laid out for her. As first lady of arkansas curse to me that you didn't really don't fit the image that we have created anymore. The governor's wife arkansas. You're not a native You've been educated in liberal eastern universities. You're less than forty you don't having children. You don't use your husband's name you practice law. Does it concern you that maybe other people feel that you don't fit the image that we have created for the governor's wife arkansas. Now that doesn't bother me. And i hope that it doesn't bother Very many people but it did bother many people. Hillary being hillary made people uncomfortable and so one by one. Her critics started asking her to change herself. Despite all her extraordinary accomplishments including senator secretary of state first woman to be nominated for president by a major political party. And i knew she even when the popular vote in the two thousand sixteen election. Despite all of that people kept at it they wanted hillary to be different for her to change and she was willing to change just never in the way that people had hoped. It's a great podcast. I love every episode. And maya is a great host the decision to being one of those people who has achieved so much in life that attempt to introduce her via her accomplishments is actually kind of difficult so after the break you'll hear all those accomplishments her thoughts on how minds change and how to change minds and details from behind the scenes of her new podcast. A slight change of plans all of that after this for most of us learning a second language in high school or college. It wasn't exactly a high point in our academic careers. Now thanks to babble. The number one selling language learning app. There's an addictive fun and easy way to learn a new language. Babbel's fifteen minute lessons. Make it the perfect way to learn a new language on the other language apps. 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I before covid and forced to canada quite a bit. French would really helped me out. When everything opens back up and babbel's certain ige's inequality now makes a lot more sense. Because now i understand what that even means so right now when you purchase a three month babble subscription you'll get an additional three months for free that is right three months for free. That's six months for the price of three. If you use the special code goto babble dot com and use the promo code y. a. n. s. s. That's b. a. b. b. e. l. dot com and the code is y. a. n. s. s. For an extra three months free bobble language for life. So i'm really really happy that you are not so smart is sponsored by better help online therapy and in. May's mental health awareness month and throughout june. You are not so smart is proud to join the cause of de stigmatizing therapy. And here's a thing. If there's something interfering with your happiness or that is preventing you from achieving your goals better help will assess your needs and match you up with your own license professional therapist. I loved the service so much. The the thing about it is you get in there and you fill out everything if you don't sync up if you don't vibe with your therapist you can have another. I assigned you through the same system. And there's just no questions asked but the best thing about better help is you can talk back and forth using their messaging service in their app as much as you like and then when you get into therapy you can discuss the things that you were talking about in the chat. And i think that's just tremendous it really im- improves the service and increases the value of it. And i think everyone should be therapy. Everyone should be and as a man. I think especially should be in therapy. 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To this show we'll get ten percent off of their first month of online therapy at better. Help dot com slash. Why a in s s that's better h e l p dot com slash y. a. n. s. s. And now we were turned to a program. I'm david mccranie. This is the you're not so smart podcast. And this is our interview. My shankar the host of a slight change of plans. Hi how are you. I'm good it's great to meet you. Congrats on your your webby thing. That's amazing thank you. That was I don't even know where to start congratulating you exactly your entire life is a series of things that i feel like. Hey amazing job on all the things you've done every time you've done a thing so the denominator is there are lots of failed attempts. You're just focused successful. Promise you that's all right He did want to be like bollywood backup. Dancer for a while as a kid. That thing I be a violinist. Yeah that's perfect. Thanks so much. Any jimmy's tech man. He's actually copen situation. Thank you so much. Get the most out of the husband is my opinion. Okay give me one second. Just gonna close the door so we can start hold shooter. We i found out that Taylor swift tobacco violinist and so. That was the thing that i wanted to do. It's just i. I understand i can. I can commiserate here. I i wanted to be on saturday night live. That's all i ever wanted to do as a kid. I did not know how to do that and had nobody in my family. That could tell me how to do that. Because i grew up in rural mississippi and But i did eventually do a live version of my podcast in new york city at the bell house and i was an afterward i went over to the to the senate live studios and i had this sort of like feeling of. I did kind of get up here. Like oh my own terms. Yeah you've been That's that's a good approximation and wildly successful so you can feel great a come on like i was looking through your The buyer they sent over. I've got it over here and I was just like oh okay. Oh okay oh yeah and like at a lot of these names and a lot of these things because you have your in the same Nerd culture that. I'm in as far as Cognitive sciences concerned. I want to tell you. Start off by telling you that i you're doing massively overlapped just tweeted this massively overlaps with what i've been doing for the last five years i've been I've been. I've been the last five years writing a book about how people change their minds about how people doing it out. Change their minds then also persuasion the psychology alpha science. I could dig up about persuasion. And then and then social change how things can lead up to social change and in so doing I've spent a lotta time with activists who have different persuasive techniques. I've spent a lot of time. With former cult members former conspirator conspiratorial thinkers I just most recently interviewed. Meghan phelps roper also spent a whole weekend at westborough church. I did a lot of embedded journalism for it and That's wonderful yeah i was. I interviewed her for my podcast. And she was saying When i looked you off i was like oh my gosh. She was just david. We're clearly in the same world. Listen to a couple. Listen to a lot of the speculation over and i was like. Oh yeah you you both. We were in the same place thinking something very similar so i i feel really great about that. Like i don't know that makes me feel really good served. And i love you. I love the concept for the show. i listened. I immediately listened. To daryl davis episode. I'm obsessed with daryl davis and i've reached out to him so many times and he's many times he said i am too busy to talk to you so Hopefully one day. I'll get a chance to chat with him as well so they must as it. What did you think of dale davis. Yeah there i mean. I could not be a big fan of his. He's so thoughtful in the way that he approaches mindset change and what's so wonderful about hearing historian folds and of course you know he's he's a musician and i also feel like his voice is like audible chocolate. Anything is beautiful saudis a gifted storyteller. And you just feel in trance. The minute he starts telling a story But but in terms of content. I think what's so wonderful about. His story is that it's corroborated by the science right. The tactics that he uses. are validated by a lot of the research on motivational interviewing and effective strategies. For trying to get people to change their minds so making sure that you show genuine curiosity trying to hold someone's values as fixed but Challenging maybe the consistency within an argument Increasing your your question to statement ratio. And it's like he did all that stuff before it was even a thing. So darrell darrell. Knew the stuff was cool even before it was cool in our in our field for could feel that feeling you get when you're obsessed with something and it starts to the surface and i'm gonna. I'm gonna talk about all of this with you now. If you're like i promise we're going to talk about the show about you before we get into it. I want like you're out for a second on this very on. Just the psychology. The science the social science the douro science the science of persuasion which i absolutely deeply obsessed with now and have been for years. the thing i found so amazing about i've spent time with people who are in st epistemology deep canvassing some motivational interviewing people cognitive behavioral. Therapy something new smart politics even people who just go straight to socratic method and stuff like that Dale looking at listening to the episode. With daryl davis on your show. I was sitting there. Yup all and the. It's as. I'm wondering if you're seeing something similar. It feels to me like a. It's like when Scientists independently discover like before there was a lot of cross talk between scientific communities independently. Discovering like Something akin to like an antibiotic or or a or somebody on one side of the planet was trying to invent the airplane and somebody on the other side of the planet was doing the same thing and they pretty much figured out. Well this airplanes would work if they go they're going to get off the ground or Even things like the models like natural selection and were independently being uncovered discovered it made sense of and taxonomy because science because it's the truth is the truth right and brains work the way brains work and if you discover what works through a persuasive technique. It's going to work with any kind of brain because what works. Works brings works the way. And i find that amazing when you mentioned that. Oh this seems a lot like motivational interviewing have that same experience. Every time i interviewed people and felt like wow like these people all working on different causes and with different motivations all kind of stumble into what does and doesn't work. But if you if you try hard enough have you seen somethings yeah. I think that's exactly right. I mean certainly with interview with megan phelps. Roper we start. We talk about concepts. Like moral reframing where you assume that the person's belief system is fixed and you try and figure out ways that you can inform their thinking By not questioning their fundamental belief system But actually just trying to engage with it and maybe find some flaws or inconsistencies in their thinking with daryl specifically and he took a different kind of tactic and What i found so powerful is that he. He sort of intuitively understood and understand that. We don't just form our belief facts. We form our beliefs partly based on our group identities and the values that that group has And this is amazing. Work done by. Dan kahan And others on cultural cognition. But it's the idea that you know. People can disagree strongly even on empirical matters and it's tempting to think that in order to persuade people something we just need to give them more facts right. We just need to give them more information. We can just give them more information. We can solve the problem But i think so many of us and david. I'm sure you've come across is so often in your work so many realize that's just not the case. Throw information at that relative across from us at thanksgiving dinner and they seem completely unmoved. And so i think that what that show us. Is that these small behaviors that people engage in every day right for example. The decision of whether or not to wear a mask actually carries profound significance for that person in terms of the group membership. Identity right someone like me is is easy to say you know i. It's just a piece of cloth like where the damn mask. It's going to keep you safe but there are communities. Where if you wear that mask you are potentially threatening your tribal membership breaking making a strong statement that you no longer a aligned with the values of your group and I think that this research is so foundational because it shows us that maybe are our instincts lead us to want to use this give people more data and more evidence arguments or or technique. When it comes to changing people's minds but that might not be the solution. So what's what's profound about. Darrell story is that he really begins with relationship building trying to build friendships with people trying to find commonalities and spaces where he knows. There are commonalities. Like oh you like my jazz music. I like jazz music. Let's talk about that or oh. Your grandfather was in the clan. And that's why you were born into the clan. Okay let me talk about my family history. And what i was born into it. He tries to find these sorts of commonalities that unite them as humans. I and i think that. I think that speaks to this research again. Showing that our our beliefs are based on so many other factors other than simply the impure behind it. I the the and i've talked hand many many times. He was on the show. We did a show about tribal psychology. And then we did. Another one about Masks and anti massacres and he was Crucial to explaining badges of of loyalty and shame as he as he puts in the l. A cultural cognition research and and we've talked a lot about information deficit model. Which is what you're talking about. The i continuously validating myself to you. Because i'm consider you such titan of of this world and i'm just happy to feel like oh yay gentlest. I found the stuff. That's really there because it's like. Oh i'm very happy because i started out going. I have no idea where to even begin. It doesn't it. Seems like a some sort of dark arts. That i can't fully wrap my and i'd love to know how you got interested in the space in the first place We'll me. It was a pretty natural path right. Because i did a did a post doc in cognitive science and neuroscience and i know your path was slightly more unusual. So interesting is more than usual. Yeah i was doing. As a pop psychology book writer. I had done a lot of about biases and fallacies but i had moved kind of into talking about conspiratorial thinking and had found a lot of interesting people in that world But that wasn't the idea behind the book. The idea behind the book was i had just saw a a pew poll that said Sixty one percent of americans used to be opposed to same sex marriage and then Within now sixty one percent of people are in favour and so if you go back in time a decade. I was astonished think that the majority of the country was opposed. And then you if you talk to this exact same people today. The majority of the countries in favor. And i wanted to understand like psychologically like scientifically how could an entire country changed. Its mind about something that they were arguing about at the same level as wedge issues are argued about today and i imagine taking someone in a time machine back ten years and having the meet themselves and what i would imagine the two people arguing with with one another themselves the same way they argue today and i just wanted to understand that The particularly what was amazing about it was the if you watch it on a on a like time lapse. The the the change in public opinion was happened. Almost it looks like it happened over the course of a year like the major shift when when when the majority flipped and it just seems so fast. I just wanted to understand how it happen quickly. What is the nature of a rapid social change and that was the entry point into it but when i it was so cool so what. I saw interviewing people in political science. I a lot of them. Were like. yeah we know. This is the fastest recording recorded. Shift public opinion. But it's not unusual the it's much like Punctuated equilibrium in that opinion ships. Often work this way. The long periods of stasis than a very sudden shift of opinion. and you need. We can't tell you about what happens in brains. We can just tell you about what happens sociologically and then so i went to to belief researchers who were just mysterious. They would say like yeah. We don't really understand this. That had a deep enough level to get to answer. Your questions and i was just started started to panic. Because i'd already sold the book idea i'd already saw. I'd already been given permission to go. Write this day. And i didn't want to tell my editors yeah i think this may be such so cutting edge that maybe i don't know yet so i instead shifted gears to i want to talk to people and this is exactly where your show like overlaps perfectly obvious like maybe talked to people who've changed their minds and drastic ways i could then take that back to scientists and they could start to identify bits and pieces of it from the literature. Yes so interesting. It's so interesting that you mentioned that. Oh sorry to interrupt man not getting me thinking You know your earlier question about you know lie. What have you seen unfold when it comes to interviews and the intersections with the science in many ways i'm having the flip experience of yours which is so heavily steeped in in the science of decision making and how he former attitudes and beliefs about the world and How we think what we think. And when i was actually in the obama white house that's when i realize the power of storytelling and how much insight could be gleaned from asking people directly about their experiences so i remember i was doing work in flint michigan after the lead in water crisis and going into that crisis My understanding was that my behavioral science team is going to be helping to get you know clean water safety information out to the community and after spending time on the ground talking with folks in flint. I realized that this water crisis was a symptom of decades of racism and disenfranchisement and people of color in the community. Not feeling like they had a voice in their local government and that completely changed. The way that i thought about the problem itself came in thinking this is about water and then all of a sudden i realize no this is about power who power belongs to this community and along similar lines when i was working on trying to build a reactor guides for formerly incarcerated people who are reentering you know when actually got to talk to those folks and understand what that transition was like. They revealed to me So many of the psychic barriers that can exist during that transition that don't exist in science textbooks anywhere so large part of my motivation for creating a slight change of plans which is my new. Podcast is there's no textbook out there on how it is that people ought to navigate. Be profound changes in their life understand. The science around smaller changes like habit formation. And you know how you can go to the gym more regularly. Or how can how can remember to get our flu shots or whatnot. But what about. These big seismic changes. That happened in their lives. How do we how do we think about the psychology behind those and how to navigate them and I thought to myself. I think the answers or at least clues about what scientists may be should study line people's stories right there and so in hearing tiffany haddish's story and hillary clinton story and daryl davis story megan phelps roper story i'm learning so much about the contours of change in life that i just never had thought about before and It's teaching me so much. And so yeah. I just i feel so Tashin it the types of insights we can glean just by listening to others. Who have you lived on this earth along with us. This same experience like i've now become more passionate about this than anything i've ever been into the big. It was through the same thing like for me. It was Talking to like former nine eleven troopers also Different people within the meghan films family Former moonies People who used to be anti vaccine is all that sort of thing And their stories you start to notice things within them that all play back to the the that big lesson of like yeah. You can't start with facts or you can't start with conclusions. You have to work backwards through the processing chain and you often find the for me. It was luckily there was an overlap to things like introspection illusion. Where you know. People very readily connects. Feel like they can explain the antecedents of their thoughts feelings behaviors to you and to themselves But it might not actually be the true antecedents which is something that we ican in therapy. That's like the whole point like one. Where's this all coming from. Or how can i like Deal with my own motivations and drives understand them more deeply. I'd never had considered that in persuasion. Because like yourself or like most people it feels like when when something feels obvious to you. It feels like it should be obvious to everyone else though. You're unaware of the attitudes and motivations that are causing that to seem obvious to you. So and so it becomes this terrible Battle of what's of obviousness and naive realism. And it's were not aware of this. You don't met a cognate at the level that allows you to have the empathy that's required for this sort of exchange. Which was what blows my mind. Daryl davis how he was able to just have this immense empathetic response to people who if they could get away with it would probably nothing him kill him for dead. Beat him You know to a pulp have devoted their lives to an identity. I hate you and people like you And he engaged with them in a curious. Empathetic manner an unfolded from there. Almost without him even having to get didn't need to understand. At a deep level of i was the rapport building and human social primates. Stuff took over after that is it. I think he's a natural born psychologist. And the reason. I say that is the more that i learn about. The human mind and the way in which we come to develop our attitudes and beliefs about the world the more empathy i feel to whereas just about everybody on this planet and i think i think it is. Yeah it it's like if you want to have folks feel more empathy for people who disagree with them or have you know what you might consider. Just totally insane views. Just take a take a class on psychology And or cognitive science and it will really deepen your appreciation for why they may have come to those views however reprehensible they are not The views themselves are vile and disgusting and horrible allows you to see that there can be kind of redemption And a space for change because the psychology piece helps you understand why they may have developed those beliefs in the first place and the minute you understand why they may have developed those beliefs in the first place you feel that there can be an opening like a crack the doors open just a bit you can sneak in and try to reverse engineer. Try to unpack it And get them to a different place and you can't help it pointed towards yourself like as you'll start at least i personally it was like oh i wonder what things i think. Believe that are from the same sort of chain now. You wish to deeply introspective away. That you've never had before. That's the great gift of it if you if you actually care about meeting someone and then moving into like how they came to where they're at and seeing them as a as not just as a as poetically an humanistic mystically as a as a a an essential manifestation of all the outcomes of the universe unfolding itself but also then as a as a big bag of molecules and atoms and then as as the lineage of know the social primate lineage. Lee start to cease. People like four dimensional. Way allows you to see yourself in that way too. I feel like. I never expected that to come out of looking at change and then how to encourage change and i feel like it made to change me. Did you feel this. Yes definitely changed me. And i mean it has changed me right. I don't remember what it's like to not study the mind because studying the mind since i was You know it's almost like a senior in high school because the summer before college is when i picked up my first book on cognitive science so it's shaped my my world views But yeah it changes. It's changed me. It's changed my approach when it comes to engaging with people that i disagree with You know one thing this conversation's making you think of when it comes to daryl. Old davis is that i think wanted. His superpowers was almost an accidental superpower. For him was that he didn't approach these early conversations with clan members with the goal to change their minds. And i think when you go in with a really strong goal to try to change someone's mind the language of us the way that makes them feel can put all their defenses they can start doubling down on their existing views They can feel like their personal agencies being threatened. And you're trying to impose views on them. But because darrell was trying to get these clan members to simply help him understand this question he had been asking his whole life which is how can you hate me. If you don't even know me. I think it really is. Conversations really started off as as dialogue as back and forth right where there was potentially curiosity on both sides. What he said is he found. After a couple of these early exchanges and and relationships formed slowly people started to change their minds. And i just think that's interesting. I don't think that works for everyone right. Like some of us really do need to go into the conversation and say okay. I really need to change your mind. Because i'm worried that you might actually get this horrible illness and have terrible consequences But that did say something to me about. You know we. You and i are aware of these motivational interviewing techniques. Right and it's you know show genuine curiosity. Well it's hard to fame genuine curiosity if you actually aren't curious and you're actually just trying to change their minds so i think darryl superpower was that he was genuinely curious because his goal was actually to write a book on the clan he'd be the first black author to write a book about the clan from his perspective and That might have been the thing that unlocked a true change. I in other interviews asked. I come back to often like you can't actually fake this. Like if your faith it's either. You're genuinely curious or not if you have this sort of mustache twirling. I'm gonna change your mind like this won't work. You just can't do it. I mean you might could sell somebody a used car but you're not going to get them. The fundamentally examined the mysteries of how they came to feel the way they feel. Impossibly update their priors in that regard. It you have to actually be curious. You have to actually want to Someone told me it's like solving a mystery together. And the mystery is on both sides like how. Why do i feel this way. What do you feel is why do i even want to change your mind. Why are you resistant to like these are the mysteries we're trying to solve which is separate from the actual issue almost makes the conclusions irrelevant in a way. Because we're trying to figure out. How do i reach my conclusions. What what causes my processing to conclude him feel satisfied and certain and that becomes this for me. Was this whole world of things was completely ignorant about that. Were driving my day to day existence. And i was unaware of it completely was in some sort of dark space. And that's i find that unlocking that unlocks a whole new way of being a person and i I dunno mother's grateful for this whole science. I i wrote about this forever. But i I didn't even ask you to introduce yourself. Feels really weird. So who are you exactly where people who've never heard of you in their entire lives. Sir maya shankar. I'm a cognitive scientist by training. And i would say i'm a practitioner of cognitive science and that i use insights from human behavior And apply on to try to inspire real world impact You know worked at the obama white house at the united nations. And i was a a now and i'm building this podcast slight change of plan and it is a doubt How how it is that people negate pretty extraordinary changes in their lives. I am a almost professional violinist. Though you went to juilliard what how come you're not playing violin somewhere professionally right now and you're doing this. Yes so when. I was a kid. My my dream was to become a professional violinist began playing the violin when i was six. And then like you said. When i was nine. I auditioned for the juilliard. School of music's pre college division And was very fortunately exempt accepted and then that began Weekly trips from connecticut to new york With my mom we'd wake a bit four thirty in the morning. Drive to new york and probably engage in ten hours of classes over the course of the day which shows you just how passionate i was right because there's such a little kid That he just loved the violin And it was everything to me was so foundational to to my identity and Things really picked up when i was in high school. And it's our perlman Who is you know. Probably the greatest violinist in present day. He asked me to be his private violence student Which was an incredible honor and kind of showed me a well. You know maybe. I could do this thing right. And it's such a competitive space and you're always feeling insecure about whether you have what it takes that i felt like his vote of confidence Made me feel like. I really could become a violinist and then when i was fifteen i I was at his summer music. Camp and i tore tendons in my hand which ended up ending my career. Essentially over ninety. And so i. I had to give up my dreams of being a violinist and try to find other things to explore. Well you did. I mean your your. Cv is one of those that makes me either inspires you or it makes you wanna go walk in the would go into the woods and bill cabinet and never come back. It's not only do. We have don't agree okay. We'll find that's a personal statement. That's david mccranie talking. Because he have juilliard perlman. And then you go. You're at yale and roads. Erode scholarship phd oxford stanford. It's it's just all over the place all the good stuff And also your your friends with Loy santos. I love lori. Santos she was. She was like the third guest on the show and she's been on the show several times and we did a most recently did something about her her podcast happiness and you worked in her monkey lab. Tell me about that. Yeah lorries my freshman year adviser And has become a lifelong mentor and friend for me but obviously what happened is as i mentioned. I lost civility to play violin. Right right as i was heading to college and I discovered a book on cognitive science. It was all about how the mind processes language. And i just remember. being captivated. Was called the language instinct and it was about the brains remarkable architecture that allows us to more or less effortlessly develop language in the early years of our lives And be able to communicate in these very sophisticated ways. And i marvel that this because always take in my ability to speak and comprehend language for granted As i think many people who have language abilities do And then you realize that it is the result of really sophisticated cognitive processing. I remember thinking. Wow that's what underlies language. I can only imagine what underlies the human ability to do complex mathematics. Or i mean. I can't do flex but my dad is a theoretical physicists. If you can So what what's in his brain and what's involved in really complex decision making or falling in love or changing your mind like i just became captivated by by the brain. I was i was in awe of it. And i didn't know what kind of major would exist for this. It wasn't quite psychology right. It was cognitive science. Unfortunately for me yale offered in a cognitive science inter disciplinary program. At the time it was one of the first schools to take classes in neuroscience computer science linguistics psychology anthropology biology And you ask a central question about the mind and you try to attack it from multiple disciplines right. You try to ask that question using these different tools. So i come into yale and lorries one of the leaders of this program. And i'm very intimidated by it because it's admissions only started having serious imposter syndrome and I learned that she had this. This monkey lab. And i showed on day one. The room is packed. David okay. I and i'm the lowly freshman right in the back of the room being like look at me. There's all these upper classmen who are eager to join the mike you out before their their time at yells over and there was an application process and i sold my soul to her the process. I was like laurie. You can have my first child you can. You can have anything you want. I won't take any other classes. I'll just commit myself to the monkey live. Just please let me in. And i was the only freshman that she let him that year. And i'm so grateful to her because it completely changed my life to actually get exposure to what it meant to do. Cognitive science research the world right to actually run experiments on monkeys And try to ask these really fascinating questions about About our minds. And and non human primate minds and I remember being in. you'll hopefully find. This interesting is still always interested in i as someone who is so fascinated by language the fact that are non human primate relatives. Don't have language can teach us something interesting about the kinds of cognition that ranked let language relies on right so I studied centralism. So this idea that you know certain entities in the world have this fundamental essence to them that in our minds could remain immutable and so one of the questions i wanted to know was are do. Monkeys have essentially Or is essential them something that relies on our ability to give names to the objects in our world and that those names get permanence to things and so we just got to run all sorts of really fascinating. What did you find out well there. Yeah monkeys have essentials qualities and so it might not actually rely on language after all they also tend to See the to believe that there is an essence of an object that even if you change superficial traits externally on that object persist. Oh wow. I love everything that lab the token systems and way they they they commit biases They commit to biases and do certain weird things that you find l. throat behavioral economics to c.s. Bear like they. They're consistent with all the cognitive risky research. Which is really something. I love that because it means it's so fundamental to our our lineages of primate. That's come makes me feel nice in some way like it gives me great comfort To know that these things are old evolutionary speaking potentially potentially. It's it's such a cool lab. And now that i know about us centralism. I'm going to look that up. I will ask you if you have papers on this. Because i want to read them because it sounds papers on it. So monkeys molecules. Centralism is a great phrase. I want to put that on a teacher. I love the the Also the fact that you had imposter syndrome because like i haven't even weren't even halfway through how insane your life is the you you worked with sesame street. I'm willing to know that for me personally. On your list of accomplishments this bumps up right to the top. Because i grew up. I grew also grew up on sesame street. I was trapped in a trailer in the woods and south. Mississippi and sesame street was not only was like. Hey take a look at new york here. People that Think and feel like you. It is okay to learn their Spanish like my first introduction. The spanish was sesame street. What was your. What was your experience with sesame street and now what did you end up doing with them. Okay so i'm obsessed with sesame so is obsessed as a child that the reason. I'm particularly obsessed with sesame. Street is that they are this powerful instrument that exists all over the world. So there's sesame a lot of people don't know this there sesame street's all over the world in different countries and they've been adapted to the social and political climates of those countries. It is an incredible tool for getting young children. To change their minds in positive ways So i happen to work on the indian version of the show. When i was at sesame street but let me just give you a couple of examples of how. The sesame has so masterfully Help to build a better world through this really creative and cute show. That families invited into their homes so in the south african version The main method is a little girl my bid and she's hiv positive and in the show. She's regularly taking her medication Trying to decrease the stigma around being hiv positive and having To comply with a lot of these you know. Pretty taxing regiments India one of the main office is named chunky. she's little girl and Maybe this outdated by the way. Maybe there's like you know next level that's now it's been a while since i worked on the show but This main character chunky is is wearing a backpack. She's constantly wearing This backpack To show her commitment to going to school every day because she's a girl that she loves reading and she loves math and she's really competitor and i. I'm just so moved to by the way in which sesame workshop has Found a way again to to change people's minds And to get them thinking differently in ways that might be different again from what they're taught in school or what they're seeing on the news or what they're seeing on other parts of their their tv and i guess in some ways it mirrors the darrow davis approach which is again people are inviting this content into their homes. Right it's enriching. It teaches them how to read and and and about basic math and whatnot and Yeah i just. I feel so passionately about this organization's mission as you can tell you mentioned the detail to the scientists have spent the most time with David brockman and josh cal. Who research Deep canvassing the activist organization that started in los angeles at the l. a. lgbt center they sort of created this persuasive technique where they would go door to door. They made a lot of headlines over the years because people have been trying to figure it out. It's like study it because they had no. They had no scientific background in their work. They just were canvassers. Who get had. They stumbled into a unique concept. Which was what we just knocked on the door and ask people. Hey why do you feel this way. And that they recorded their conversations. The ab tested them. And then after twelve thousand of these after twelve thousand these conversations and sticking with what worked then throwing away. What didn't they sort of zeroed in on a persuasive technique that they train people in and then The scientists who study found that it was very effective After they went through a Debacle which one of the first people who studied them Creator fraudulent research by copy pasting data from an old study but once they got through that they they had people actually studied them defend was very effective and then there was recent line of research because this was continues to be used around the world They found what seemed to be the key ingredient. They were trying to look for the active ingredient. As if they're trying to understand some chemical that was The way they put it to me was like trying to understand how aspirin works. We have this tree bark thing that is effective at reducing pain. But we don't know what's actually happening in the bodies of the people taking it so they want to be able to replicate. Its they want to figure out what the active ingredient and they they keep coming back to. They call it non-judgmental listening to call an empathetic open. Non-judgmental judgmental listening in they're trying to like create a scientific term for but that's what they've the mouth word for it right now And a lot of it is just once you build. Report lose allowing a person to tell their story and be heard and listened simply listening to it. Oftentimes a person when they have to articulate what has before been ineffable to them and they have to actually explore the actual reasons and justifications behind whatever they they feel might be their position. Or what is it. It seems to be causing them to have this emotional response in the presence of this novel information or what seems to be novel. It's almost like you don't have to do anything i think. Dale davis mentioned this. It's not trying to change their mind just trying to understand it. The person starts to do whatever brains do when they think about this kind of stuff and they start to change themselves right there in the moment and if they feel safe you can nurturing curate. That experience is that seemed like leave seen as well. I think the more that you can recruit people's agency And and get them to change their own minds about something more durable that mindset changes and the more generally committed they are to that mindset change and so i think keeping the space open like you said making it a safe space I think this is why they find that that converts are so powerful When it comes to changing people's minds like former extremists are extremely effective getting potentially current extreme extremist to change their minds. And that's because they shared at some point in time a very similar identity so it's safer the current extremists to go down this path with the the former one and understand how it is they got from point a to be In in a way that feels Accessible and resonates with them So yeah i mean another another quote from daryl that i think is so powerful as he says you know. I don't like to say that. I convince people to lead the clan. I like to think that inspired them to recognize within themselves that they wanted to leave. They changed their minds. I didn't change their minds yet. I'm going to come to this. I don't wanna leave the slightly on the table after all the things you've done you you end up in the white house Doing incredible work changing the world. How did you end up in the white house and would you do there. Yes i was doing. My post doc at the time in cognitive neuroscience and i remember i was in this windowless. Fm mariah lab is probably my fourth hour skating people's and this guy comes in and he goes in the scanner and we right on peering into this dude sprayed and i'm thinking Missing i feel like the order of operations is a little bit off here. Like i don't know if this guy has kids. Favorite ice cream flavor is what his job is. And those are the kinds of things that i would love to know In a normal environment. So i kind of realized that the at least the mariah part of my job was not meant for me. I really wanted to be in a more social environment in groups getting to know people working on teams. What have you so i decided. I probably didn't wanna become an academic like a professor somewhere somewhere. And i didn't know what would come next and so. This is where. I called laurie. Santos as as we talked about. She's my mentor. So i usually come to her at every juncture in my life. And i said well what do i do next. I don't know what a post doc in cognitive neuroscience does if they don't become a professor and she said well you know my. I just heard recently about this. Incredible work happening in the obama white house Under the leadership of cast sunshine. Who wrote the book now. Jin is an incredible legal scholar and also the us department of agriculture and basically they were solving an important problem which is that the us department of agriculture offers a free or reduced price lunch program to millions of kids who Whose families can't afford lunch at school and unfortunately despite the fact they were offering this program. Millions of kids were still going hungry every day and so they did have a behavioral and beasley found out that the application process for for school lunches was extremely burdensome. Required referencing multiple tax documents. You know any mistake Could be that with a penalty and if you think about the conditions that that's really hard right. Imagine a single mom who's working you know three shifts to make ends meet and they were asking her to fill out this very burdensome forum. Exactly this particular moment. In time during the year to get her kid enrolled and then there was also a stigma associated with applying or signing your kid up for benefits program fast forty years when i was at the white house actually spoke with the principal. Who said you know parents in my school. They work super hard. And they don't like the idea of having their kids rely on the government in order to eat and so Going back to this anecdote What the government did is that. They used existing data. They already had on these kids to automatically enroll them in the program. So now only proactive. Steps were needed if you wanted to actively unin roll your child from the program. No steps were needed. If you wanted to enroll them and as a result of this policy change twelve and a half million more kids were now eating lunch at school every day. and i was so moved by. This example is a great of how if we applied insights from behavioral science. Right the power of changing the default option. It could be a game changer. For for for people and set in this case set kids on a trajectory for success who might have otherwise failed and so i thought well this is amazing in powerful. I wanted to do this but there was no. There was no job available for behavioral scientists Cast had just left the white house and So laurie and i chatted and i ended up sending casts a cold email And basically said. I have a post doc. I have no public policy experience. I probably published nothing of significance. Mind would find interesting. But i would love to work at the intersection of behavioral science and policy. And i do remember david. I wrote in the email because you were talking a little bit before about imposter syndrome i wrote. I know i'm not cool enough to work. But if there's an opportunity in state or local government i would love to do that and thankfully for me cast ignored by my insecurities and connected me with the president sites adviser and within a week. I was interviewing for a job that i was pitching them on right. I was trying to ask them if they would be interested in building a new position for a behavioral scientist To come in and work out on translating insights from our field into public policy improvements and I remember that conversation was very transformative. Because my colleagues and i have been waxing poetic about the power of the insights murphy failed to change people's lives for a while But this was the first time in my life where i was having a conversation in which the person on the other end was telling me that we could actually make this stuff happened so i remember i was talking about michelle obama's let's move initiative and you know i was out with him. I was like oh we should really be using injunctive norms versus descriptive horns and He said well. You know. i know michelle obama's team and we can make that happen and I remember like it was like a lightning bolt. I was i was thinking. Oh my gosh. Look at the power of this platform right and so Fortunately for me. Baba one is reelection a few weeks later and they were able to creek position for me and That's how the white house does all through email the first of all thank you for letting allow me to dive through your life and that way. I've just you're you're an incredibly fascinating and amazing human being and you. You're one of those people that makes me think about like star trek. The next generation always had these. These incredible people were the only people that can make it through starfleet academy and then get a position on the enterprise and you like you are one of those people being like you watch the show at is very aspirational. Well nobody's actually capable but it's nice to think about a world like that but no this true like you really are one of those people. I think just It just blows me away so appreciate you let it go through all of that. I mean one lesson that. I've learned that might be helpful listeners. Is you're not always going to be handed. An opportunity and that opportunity might not even exists. But one thing. I've learned from my experiences. You can always try and create it. You can always try and create the the job that you want If you If you try to build a particular argument or you know you have the the luxury of sitting down with someone. And saying hey. Is there any chance that you'd be willing to think about this new kind of position. And i do feel like Yeah that was a great learning experience for me which is don't wait for the job to exist. Try to make it yourself. That's that's good advice. I feel very deeply on this Have i commiserate. Deeply that i'm interested in some of these episodes Let me ask about two in particular Because you have incredible guests from scott. Kelly who also amazing to me. the make unfiltered. Who is we traded. Macaroni and cheese recipes over over texture. To right after we talked. We made each other's macaroni and cheese. She's an amazing person Tiffany haddish used book about hillary clinton casing grades. You're all incredible people. I want to talk about casey just for a second just because this has a little. Bit psychedelic senate If to see the florida you tell us a little bit about what you discovered with Speaking to casey most graves and psychedelics. And how they can how. She was a term not not to change yet. Casey is a very inspiring person. So she's the country music singer and it was funny because our interview basically took two parts. The first part was her talking about the fact that from an early age as she was trying to break into the music industry she was just absolutely resolute in her convictions. To stay true to herself Which is a really impressive thing. If you think about it because breaking into the music industry is so hard you can easily imagine justifying it to yourself and saying okay mish turn. They want me to change these lyrics which they're finding a little to a reverend and they'll just break in and as soon as i broken in then all really be true to myself And so again you can. It's so effortless to imagine why someone would just do whatever they needed to do to get on the airwaves The casey just said she said it's so beautifully She was saying you know so. Then what now you fool people into thinking someone you're not in that's who they think they're signing up to listen to and so. I was so impressed that even from such a young age she had this maturity and understanding that she was essentially building a social contract with her listeners and she needed to make sure that it was absolutely authentic and was honest to her lived experience. She was saying you know. I violated a lot of country norms right by pumping about sex and drugs and homosexuality and whatnot that in many ways that is the most country thing to do because country music is all about people's stories it's all about their lives and casey was saying like my life has been about some of those scenes and it would be authentic for me not to talk about that So i She she stood up to music Business critics and things like that and said. I'm sorry i'm just not willing to change for you. It's okay if i don't sell as many records. It's okay if i don't hit the top charts and whatnot and then of course jokes on them because she goes on to win album of the year at the grammys for one of the most contentious alvin so Yeah i was very much in awe of her story kind of flips the the plot podcast like change of plans on its head of it right by It be about when a person is unwilling to chain when they're just happy with who they are And then in the second half of the interview we talk about her exploring psychedelics and how it filled her Child psychologist said that. Doing an lsd trip is essentially like being a kid all the time because you're filled with this childlike wonder and creativity and openness to world and She's able to talk a bit about how that mindset informed her creative process and how it just informed her life generally. She feels like she know. She confronts her younger self in one of her trips her nine year old self and she just gives her this big hug and says how much he loves her and She tried to have more compassion towards former versions of herself that she might have been at the time. Very self critical of those incredible. My love the A lot of. I got very deep into the pj assimilation accommodation stuff and The i the i th. I think about that all the time when i hear positive psychedelic stories about how returns you to a state where you have to re engage in the simulation accommodation that you thought you were done with because because discombobulated the world to the point where you have to. The brain starts looking for patterns or trying to make sense of things and then when you finally come back in some way you come back with that meta knowledge that If you know that you are doing that you know that that's possible. You're aware of the fact that accommodation takes place when you learn how to play a game. You don't just learn the game. You learned that games can be played. You know of the gains have ruled The analogy she was at at. I know everyone has throat analogies for psychedelics and actually one of the things. That's things that so interesting is. It's really hard to use language to describe and lsd trip is like an actually. That's one of the things. I asked her about in the interview Which is do feel. Actually that music allowed you to better convey what that experience was like because people will say it was so profound it completely changed my life and then they use you know all of these like pablum these all these hyperbolic terms describe it and then they listen to themselves report back on their trip and they're like ten minutes source were found. In the moment. i'm not able to find the language to describe this And so we do talk about whether she feels like music was actually a better vehicle for her to convey what those trips felt like. Sorry i digress. That's good because who's i was talking to you. david egan said. The language is are low bandwidth You know A vehicle for transmitting information and over time we get better at articulating the ineffable but it doesn't really matter where it comes from if it comes from art or philosophy or science or mathematics like everything's that attempt to pierce the the ignorance space in shed a little bit more understanding into it but it may not be easy. We may not have the words or the metaphors for that are able to contain it and that happens so much experiences. Yeah yeah it's like casing say you know when she's talking about the stuff and when i read about it You know. Obviously michael has incredible book about second reading that book. You know just sounds so cliche. All the things people are saying that it it can be life altering rate a terminally ill. Cancer patient doesn't lsd trick and it completely renews their relationship I it can. It can renew and transform their relationship with the things most fearful of It can you know for example. Make them at peace with for the first time ever because they confront death in their trip and all of a sudden they think about it differently. but yeah i mean. Casey was saying that it was as though she had her whole life and trotting through the woods laying down you know her tracks and then when she did the trip it was all those tracks have been covered up and so this blank canvas in front of her and she was she was exploring completely new neural paths that she had never taken before. This is such a great testament to this credible programming but together because they not only. Do you have this and dale davis and all the other things we've mentioned you have someone who like looked it's look down at earth from space for a year in and changed their perspective on humanity he also hillary clinton yes an amazing episode because it took me by surprise. I don't wanna give too much away. Guarantees yeah i think what was so interesting to me going interviews that i thought i was going to have a certain conversation with her about what it what she felt. She lost and changing her last name and the conversation turned out completely differently than i thought. And what i realized is that the changes that society is asked. Hillary clinton over the last few decades have not had the impact on her that we thought they did That's good that's a tease. Do listen dear listener you will help to. I love it when i go into an interview thinking. It's going to be a certain way. And then my guest totally challenges my mental model. Change your mind. yeah. I changed my mind about their their own story and what their profound change was and how they thought about the changes that they made in their lives And hillary clinton story fell exactly to this bucket. Where i think you prepare questions going into an interview and i think by question three. I was like okay. These questions relevant anymore and i tossed it out and we just had this beautiful conversation that folded really naturally. I'm so excited for people to hear it. This is a great work. Let me let me Would talk to you forever on this. If i could. We only have so much time. I want to make sure. I asked this question. Which is And there's no right answer. This is just your chance to just talk. Which is what. What does that phrase even mean to you. Change your mind like what does that mean. What is changing your mind. Even mean that's a great question Well first of all. I think it can mean lots of different things depending on the context But i really think it's just when you think the most powerful forum is when you absolutely believe that something you think is true and then one day you realize it might not be and i mean that that type of mindset change can be about anything. I mean one of the fascinating things. I've learned in in launching a slight change of plans and having conversations with my guess is how how many times surprise themselves and learn new things about themselves and change their own minds as a result of the big change so for example. I talked with a thirty two year. Old cancer researcher who was also self proclaimed health nuts so he has been trying to optimize his quality of life in life span for the last decade plus intermittent faster and he does high intensity interval training and he's a vegan and he pours turmeric on all of his food If if it's in a life hacking book he's done it right and then at thirty two. He gets a stage four cancer diagnosis. That leads him to have to amputate his leg. Get multiple surgeries including losing vertebrae And you know. Probably six rounds of chemotherapy and so his worst fear has come true dated and one thing that was astonishing to him that he found himself being more or less as happy eight months into the treatment as he had been before and he said if he had new sorry if he had known that he would respond in this way. Psychologically never have been as flow this outcome in the first place and i was so powerful to me because that it almost like it it it was. He was changing his mind about himself right how he responds and he had had a mental image of who he was before this and then he had a massively update that understanding when he was actually confronted with his worst nightmare outcome in life and then there's been other cases where people have tried to inspire what they believed would be a really positive good change and it had all sorts of negative consequences so i talked with a woman named l. know who lost over one hundred pounds in a very short amount of time. It had been her dream from the time. She was a little girl to become thin. And so you know. She reaches that goal and she does become thin initially. She feels like she's living her dream life but then all of a sudden starts to realize that she's become a worse person but she's lost parts of herself that she really treasured and value bike. She's less bold and irreverent. she's more You know self conscious. She's less nice to people because she's able to get things that she wasn't able to get before and so she realized. Oh wow this change that. I thought would be so positive. Didn't have the expected impact on me. I'm a less happy person now. So i love it when when changing your mind is not just about like a topic but it's actually changing your mind about yourself and what you're capable of. I've seen that come through in almost every interview that i've done for a slight change of plans. This is i. I love it so much. This is a. I feel like you made the show just for me and i appreciate it david but i cannot wait to share with the world and I support. I really appreciate love this process. So it's so good and i really appreciate what you do in the world you are one of these unalloyed goods and you've creating a better world everywhere you go i just I have immense gratitude for your work as a human being. And i really appreciate everything you're doing not just with this show but whatever elsie find yourself doing afterward i really appreciate it. Thank you senator. Of course the feeling is mutual. Yeah so i. I would spend more time with your good. I know you probably have a tight schedule. You so much for all of this anything you ever need in the future whatsoever. If i can be of service anyway let me know i may. I may do that her. Thank you so much david for your time. It was a pleasure meeting you. okay bye bye. That is it for this episode of the or not so smart. Podcast if you'd like to learn more about maya maya shankar dot com that is in a y. a. s. h. a. n. k. a. r. dot com for links to everything that we talked about this episode in any other episode. Go to you are not so smart. Dot com and for all the past episodes. Go to spotify. Or i tunes for soundcloud or stitcher are omni or you're not so smart dot com. Follow me on twitter at david mccranie. Follow the show at not smart blog also on facebook half a million people over on facebook. That talk about the episode's that's facebook. Dot com slash. Your not so smart. If you'd like to support this one person for now operation help make it better help pay for transcription and other features go to patriotdepot dot com slash. You're not so smart pitching in any amount. We'll get you these episodes with no ads in them but the higher amounts posters t-shirts signed books and other things the opening music. That's clash by caravan palace. This music is by banjo apocalypse. 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daryl davis david mccranie daryl babbel dale davis kkk tiffany haddish Maya dave mccready arkansas Cunanan cunanan Manson jeffrey dahmer Henry lucas john Wayne casey sam albert desalvo Maya shankar Megan phelps roper davis darryl Babbel
What Makes This Podcast Great? Jordan Harbinger Edition

School of Podcasting

45:47 min | Last month

What Makes This Podcast Great? Jordan Harbinger Edition

"I am probably eight years old as i sit on the bright orange. Shag carpeting of my grandfather's house and he is tilted back in his recliner. I shot and pretty much. Looks like he's sleeping on. The television is something that i definitely don't want to watch so i quietly get up. I walk over the tv set. And i grabbed the channel changer. In the minute. I go to change it somehow through some sort of superpower that my grandfather had he said i'm watching that do what she would just slowly back away from the channel changer and go back to the floor or maybe go outside and shoot some baskets or something like that but in the end. Isn't that what we all want. If somebody hits stop on your podcast you want somebody to go ho hold on. I'm not done with that. I want to hear what's next. And i haven't done one of these in a while back on episode seven. Oh five i did. What i'm calling a. Hey what makes this podcast great. That was the mark man edition. This one is the jordan harbinger addition. We're going to look at. Why was this good and see. If there's anything we can learn from somebody who's absolutely crushing it. In podcasting it ladies casting podcasting sense two thousand and five. I'm your award-winning hall of fame. Podcast coach dave jackson thinking you so much for stopping in. I do appreciate it. If you're new to the show this is why help you plan launch and grow your podcast. My website is school of podcasting dot com. Use the coupon code listener. That's l. i. S. t. n. e. r. When you sign up for either a monthly or yearly subscription and. Don't forget those come with a thirty day. Money back guarantee. Today's episode is brought to you by pod page. I'll be talking about it a little later. It's a great tool to help you. Make a website for your podcast in like five to ten minutes. And you don't have to be technical guru check it out school of podcasting dot com slash tripod page. Today we're talking a little jordan harbinger. We're gonna start off with this talk on jordan and it was really interesting because jordan is well aware he has to formats. He does a show three times a week. and i think it's fairly public knowledge. That gets six-figure downloads. He gets lots and lots in fact in my book profit from your podcast available at oddly. Enough profit from your podcast. Dot com jordan is one of the few people i know of that is making a living solely with advertising in. That's because he gets boatloads of just like buckets of downloads. Why because he does the work. I've talked about jordan a lot in the past. But i heard this episode and there were so many things that like. I see what you did I see that's ooh. And i was like we're gonna talk about this. I reached out to jordan and said. Hey buddy i want to sing your praises and shocking. He he had no problem with that. So the first thing is jordan is smart enough to know that he does to different types of formats. He does Deep interviews with people twice a week and then on friday. He does what he calls feedback friday. Now if you're not familiar with jordan jordan came from a show. Many moons ago called the art of charm which was kind of a. Yeah it was kinda how date show but it was really about interacting with humans kind of thing human nature type of stuff so he's realizes that part of his audience still wants to hear that kind of stuff not so much how to hook up and things like that so he gets some really interesting questions on feedback friday. But he's well aware that feedback. Friday is more popular than his monday and wednesday show. So what does he do on feedback. Friday that's right he promotes. Hey this is what you missed on monday and wednesday. Because he realizes he's got more people listening. And so what did i do. He explained that there was this one guy that is going around in well. I'm not gonna give you the description. Because i'm gonna let him describe it. But here's the thing georgia's is one of those guys. That does a great job of pulling a tease now. What is the tease. tease from. An interview is where you pull something that they said. That makes you kinda go. Oh i wanna hear more of that and that really is. The theme of this episode is hey. I was listening to that. Hey don't stop that hold on. I want to hear more. And i've said this before then. A good podcast makes you either laugh. Cry think grown educate or entertain or preferably two or more of those at the same time and in the bottom of all. If you take that and go okay. Got it really. What we're saying is if somebody hit. Stop on your podcast. Are they going. Aw man i gotta go into the school now or i gotta go into someplace. Why can't hear the rest of this. Are they kinda bombed that they hit. Stop and with jordan's episode. As i was walking around i was just like what's going to happen next. Holy cow so listen to this tease special. Thanks to starbucks for sponsoring this episode of the jordan harbinger. Show now. i'm gonna stop that here. Because here's what i'm going to praise. That was five seconds. And that's what those are supposed to be. We're gonna do a pre roll. He's not like hey starbucks where you get the frappuccino bradley standard-bearer remember now. It's like a special thanks to starbucks. And we're out so that i thought was cool and i'm going to give you a little inside here. What did i hear on feedback. Friday jordan said he interviewed a black guy who is making friends with people from the k. k. k. Here's how the show actually starts coming up next on the jordan harbinger. Show if you find yourself in a culture society with which you're unfamiliar and you apply those five values to those people. I can guarantee you. The navigation will be much more smooth and much more positive. So essentially i viewed white supremacist as another culture and i applied those values. And that's what allowed me entrance into that world. And so when. I hear that i was like wait a minute five values and this guy's meeting with kkk people. Mike if he has some sort of cool five basic principles apply these and you can get along and win and influence people kind of thing like i gotta hear the rest of this episode. I want to hear more. So than jordan comes in to introduce his show remember. Nobody gets on a bus without knowing where it's going and here's how jordan introduces the show. Welcome to the show. I'm jordan harbinger on the jordan. Harbinger show we decode the stories secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people. We've got index conversations with people at the top of their game astronauts and entrepreneurs even the occasional mafia enforcer scientists or undercover agent and. I know what you're thinking. Hey wait he's not niching down. Hold on listen how he ties. All of those wide interests into one area and each episode turns our guests wisdom into practical advice that you can use to build a deeper understanding of how the world works and become a better critical thinker. Now what's so cool about that is now somebody says. Hey what's the george harbinger show about. I don't have to say well. Interviews is like crazy Mafia people and but i can just say it's a great show where this guy interviews amazing people and it's all about better critical thinking east boiled it all down into one simple sentence if you're new to the show or you're looking for a handy way to tell your friends about the show we've got episodes starter packs. The starter packs are collections of top episodes organized by topic. That'll help new listeners. Taste of that. We do here on the show. Did you hear that sound. That's the sound of about thirty people going wait. Do you have a pen. That has incan at this. One doesn't work. that's a great idea so number one. It's his top episode. So he knows these are the ones that people really like. Here you go. Let's start off your meal with dessert. Why not here's the best stuff right here and there's one thing right when you're doing when you're trying to serve an audience you can get them from point a to point b but at some point the only way you can improve is to get them from point a to point b quicker and that's exactly what jordan is doing with that step he's like hey if you're new let me assure you in and really hold on me. Hit the button. You guessed it invisible sky buddy alert invisible sky buddy alert. Beware and. I'm just going to say the word church so don't get too crazy here. But i went to a mega church and of course when you go there. What do they have spots for. Guests guests not visitors because what visitors do visitors come. Then they leave. These are guests. These are people that you've asked to come to your location. And then what do they do. They have the people with the biggest smiles in the whitest teeth at the front door to greet you. And welcome you and and blah blah blah and. Then what do they do. They hand you off to an usher like there's somebody waiting there and they're gonna give you a quick tour around the place. Let you so you can see just how cool it is like. You really wanna come here. And then they take you right to the front row and i was like. Wow that is a cool way to come into a building for the first time and there was no pressure by the way of like. Give me your money or anything like that. It was just like hey. We're really glad you're here. We want to make this transition into this service as easy as possible. Have a good time any questions. I'm standing right over there. And that's what jordan is basically doing. Hey welcome into my house. If you're new here let me usher you right over to the really good stuff. That's been proven that people like this. It's making it super easy for you so for me. I heard that. And i was like i am so going to make me some sort of start here button. I've seen the start here buttons before. But i don't think i've heard somebody kind voice as a starter pack which is kind of probably the same thing. But it's a great idea. If you haven't thought of it again you gotta remember that you and i know that podcast has been around forever and like everybody knows about podcasting. Not everybody knows about podcasting so why not grab them by the hand give them the whitest and the whitest smile you can say. I'm so glad you're here. Let me show you how to consume my content and more importantly how to follow and subscribe me back jordan. Just visit jordan harbinger dot com slash. Start to get started or help. Somebody else get started and of course i always appreciate it when you share the show and notice. That's just a quick mentioned. Oh by the way you can share the show. Why because he hasn't given you anything to share yet. Why spend twenty minutes asking people to share when he hasn't given you anything to share but he's just planning the seat. Oh by the way you can share the show and one of the ideas behind. The show is not just waiting to see what our society becomes. But actually shaping our society and today's guest is doing just that in a way that's pretty damn unique now. What i loved about that is. He didn't say and now let me tell you about our guest in read his linked in profile. No he's tying it into the mission of the show and why he brought this guest on so it was just a super smooth transition. You learn a little bit about the show and why this guy is here. Daryl davis is a jazz musician whose hobby is making friends with klux klan members. And it's a bit strange pastime so already you're intrigued. You're like he does. What but wait. There's more even more strange because darryl is black you don't have to know much about the kkk to know that typically being friends with people of color not towards the top of their list. And trust me. There's more wait till you hear this. Daryl is an incredible guy. He played piano for chuck berry of the inventor of rock and roll by the way for over thirty years. He's been that scene for quite a long time. Made his mark there and in his closet next two sheets of music and probably some sparkly sequined shirts or pants. He's got clansman robes given to daryl after his friendship with those clansmen inspired those men to leave the class. Was he doing this. Apparently he's really good at it. And i don't know jordan did this on purpose but he said next two sheets of music because he's a musician so it's you know. Kkk is known for sheets any tied into sheets of music. Are i thought that was i. Don't know if you did that on purpose. But today darryl is at least partially responsible for over two hundred members turning in their hoods and we're going to hear how this all came to be now. How many people of color do you think have a certificate of friendship from the klu klux klan. I'm guessing just one and he's here with me today. This is a phenomenal conversation. That i really enjoyed darryl is one charming dude as you'll soon see so if i stopped the show right there do you want to hear more in. That really is to me like the litmus test of a good podcast when you hit. Stop to somebody go. Hey i was listening to that. Let that play. And as i sit back and look at this episode the other thing that jordan did and i give him credit for this. Is you just heard. This guy played for chuck berry the king of rock and roll for thirty years and jordan did not tap into that at least an episode one. This is a two parter in episode. One he didn't mention chuck berry hardly at all. Besides the fact that oh by the way this guy played for chuck berry why because you heard at the beginning. The mission of the podcast. It's all about critical thinking. And i'm pretty sure a story about chuck berry may not at least at this point. Add to the theme of critical thinking. And how the heck do you get along with. Kkk people and maybe more importantly. Why are you doing this. And so what was interesting is as i listened to the episode. Darryl is a really interesting guy. So how did jordan. No this once again. Jordan has done his homework. He watched the documentary. He had some other videos that darryl had sent him. And if i had to put money on a bet. I would say that jordan read. The book he did is homework and that way. He does a great job of leading daryl through his best stories. His greatest hits so to speak so as he's going through and you start to understand. Why was this person like this. You get to see the story. But there's one other key point here. Darryl is also a public speaker and this is one of the things. I noticed that daryl i mean kudos to jordan for finding a really interesting guests and things like that but darryl is also a good storyteller and when you put somebody in the interview each share that does not mean Even though they may be great people give you an example. Alex bloomberg is the head of gimblett media. That has made these really super successful podcast. He worked for this american life. This guy knows how to make audio however in my opinion alex is a little bit of fish out of water when he is teaching a class again not that his material was bad but he was definitely just not comfortable doing that. And so you can have people who should are have a great story but they can't get it out of their mouth and that is not the case here. Jordan only picked an interesting person but they possess skills to get it out of their mouth in a great way. That has you thinking. I wonder what happens next. And one key ingredient of a good story our stakes so here are some steaks. Warned me darryl do. Not fool with roger kelly as guzman roger. Kelly will kill you so daryl's having a meeting with this grand dragon dude. And they've said hey. This guy's dangerous and one of the things. That darrell does is theater of the mind. He describes the room. So you can start to see. It's not just a story you can see it in your head now the room situated where you cannot see. Who's in the room from the from the doorway. You gotta come in the room and turn around the corner and they you see room late up so i'm sitting in the moselle secure corner of the room at his lou atlanta djabel thing. I take them to laugh off. I had a black bag. Might share voted to set record or out of their said on the table in. The bag has some blankets sets and a copy of the bible because client claims to be a christian organization and they say that the bible previous racial separation not never senate in there so i want to be able to. Hey please show me. Chapter in verse. Where says some au-pair right knock knock not neri hops up and runs around the corner over the door in walks us fan bodyguard. And he's a military camouflage that red circle white gross blood drop patch right there. The letters kkk here and knights of the ku klux klan embroidered on his cat so he's not like undercover at all he just no rapid. He's got a semiautomatic on his holster. Wanna hear what's next exactly. He comes in mr. Kelly is a dark blue suit and tie. You remember mr kelly. He's the guy that people said. Yeah that guy will kill you walking right behind him and this guy turns the corner and sees me and just freezes and again. I want to hear what happens next. Don't you the other thing. I saw jordan do that. I was like man. That's a great example. I always say anytime you need to make a point in a podcast. If you can make that point with a personal story then your audience gets to know a little bit about you will. Jordan is taken this to his advertising. Listen to him talk about this. Magnesium supplement. this episode is sponsored in part by by optimize irs. Were expecting baby number. Two as many of you know and same as what we had with her first pregnancy jen's been struggling with leg cramps little insomnia. She's noticed a big difference on the days that she takes magnesium so is sharing a little bit about. What's going on. Congratulations on baby number. Two and i'm gonna play a clip. Appear remember when you describe things to people you want to describe it in a way so they can see how they're going to benefit. Listen to how jordan talks about going to his website and more importantly why and by the way all those. Url's although sponsors they're all on one page. If you get a jordan harbinger dot com slash deals. You can find all those promo codes. Please consider supporting those who support this show. And don't forget we've got worksheets for many episodes of the show. If you want of the drills the exercises talked about during these podcasts. Those are in one easy place as well. That link is in the show notes at jordan harbinger dot com slash. Podcast notice jordan is straight to the point on everything here it. Is you know a lot of fluff. Here's boom right to it. So think about this you heard. Let's say four different advertisers in your episode. You go there. You see the four that you heard in holy cow. There's another twelve year from other episodes. I didn't wow. I could get twenty percents off of that one in ten percent that so what happens you end up buying more things from his sponsors which see that it came from jordan which means those people are then going to re up and continue to pay him and then of course. What else can you do. When everything's on one page you can share it with your friends again. That's a great idea. Have all of your sponsors on one page with an easy to remember website address then other people are like hey my website school podcasting dot com and the audience is like all right. I guess write that down for trivia night. What steve jackson's website. I know this one. No he explains why you should go to the website. There's worksheets there's all this other things. So so many people say oh. Go sign up for my newsletter. Why the one thing. I when i was you know being a teacher especially for adult education. You had to explain why because from the age of two. That's one of my favorite words. Why why so you have to throw in the. Why and jordan does that very well. You know what's an easy tool to have all your sponsors on one page automatically. That's ripe pod. Page pod page is a tool designed for podcasters based on feedback from odd casters. And you can try it for free by going to school. A podcasting dot com slash. Tri pod page. You can simply go win at your sponsors and then have them appear automatically honest sponsors page. You can also have that main sponsor for the episode show up on the episode page and also have them show up on the front page. Here's another bonus of pod page. I gotta build this week from word fence. Which is the security thing that stops one of my websites. That still on wordpress. It's a blog and it was one hundred ninety three dollars for the year. So that people won't hack me another one is of course if you have an ssl certificate. Yeah i guess what you have to pay for that. Not all of that. You don't have to worry about being hacked. You don't have to worry about having an ssl that's part of everything. I'm here to tell you. Pod page is like a glove. That's waiting for your hand. You don't have to be a nerd to build your website. You can build your podcast website in about five to ten minutes. Try it out. It's absolutely free school of broadcasting dot com slash tripod page a. Coming up you're going to hear me have a uncomfortable conversation about fine ability versus discover ability. But before we get to that. Let's get back. I went out to jordan's website and not only does he have a great website. Where you have a link right where you can subscribe again. You always wanna make it easy for people to subscribe where i guess now follow but the other thing he does is he also writes a blog in when i mean a blog. I don't mean some sort of robot typed up transcript piece of crap. I'm talking three thousand five hundred and thirty four words of content. In this case the title was how to design the perfect morning routine and avoid a bad one. And what's interesting about this article. It stands alone. It's an article. It delivers value but in the article without making it a giant spam piece if there's a part or a paragraph or a word that is something that he's previously mentioned in another episode or another article he has a link to that and it sounds weird but when you linked to yourself and a lot of people think it makes me go blind i i believe. That's a myth. But when you linked to yourself it somehow boost your seo guy. I know it sounds weird because it's like wait but i know it's a link to my website but it's for i'm here to tell you i've heard adding links to yourself what it is when google comes to your website it follows links on your website if those are links to your website that means google really in theory will cover your whole website. And there's actually we could get into whole seo thing and with Oh what does that call. There's a file that your index there's an index. I still hear that when you linked to yourself. It helps you google so and again. It's one of those things. Some people like to listen. Some people like to read and the other thing it does is. I've heard jordan. Say hey i wrote a new article. It's about blah blah blah. Bought time. I went to visit people in prison. It's as indepth article and so when you're listening to the podcast. It is yet another reason. Why should i go to his website. So he's giving value that way which also then. What is google's job. What is google. Google job is to deliver the reason they are the number one you know. Search engine is back in the day. When there was netscape it was netscape. And then there was internet explorer. Microsoft had a monopoly there. We're getting sued. Because they had really taken over the internet. This is way back in the day and so along came google. How did google win. They were better because what does the person who is trying to surf the internet. They want to type in some words and not have to check the first. The second the third the seventeenth of twenty ninth return they want to type in a search and click on that first one and go exactly what i was looking for. And that's exactly what google did again. Sometimes people wanna get from eighty to be if you can get them from a to be faster you win. And that's what google did well. Google's job is to find good content. So what is jordan doing by writing a blog on his website. He's giving them three thousand five hundred forty three words of good content. And i know what you're thinking. Hey that takes time. And it's not that easy and your point is now what i try to do. Is i try to make the description or my podcast episodes a blog post for me. A podcast episode is simply a blog post with player on it. That way. i'm kinda trying to do both. I'm trying to give great content for google. I'm giving you a player. So you can click and listen. And then i try to make it easy for you to subscribe. That's the other thing that jordan does is. He has easy to subscribe slash follow links on his website all right. I have a little boo boo. I gotta fix early. I said jordan is one of the guys will literally ninety eight percent of his income. If not ninety nine is coming from advertising. He does on his website under the podcast link have recommended books and recommended movies. And so when you go to recommended books this is an audience that likes to think these are people that are trying to understand better themselves. So he's got all the books. My guess is these are all the books. He's read from his guests and things of that nature. It's really well laid out. It's just a book covers. And of course he's got those lined up with an affiliate link and then under recommended movies. This is something they do on feedback. Friday is hey what have you been watching what he's been listening to and this is again. It's kind of an inadvertent way but it does work. It's a way for your audience to have something in common with you like i just got done. I'm almost completely done with a book. The war of art and it's really kind of a tough love. Hey you get out their little buck aroo and you don't listen to the resistance and you get out there and you make a podcast for the gipper kinda book. It's about two and a half hours long. Got it on audible links in the show notes but by doing that people kind of get an idea of what you like to read. What makes you tick. And i know that you know that. I know that you know that. I know that i'm just a dude i actually put on. My socks wanted time this morning but people want to get to know you and that's the way of doing that. So that's a little feature that they do on feedback friday and again. They've got links to these movies. So if you want to check them out as well And these are straight to not so. I don't know if netflix has an affiliate program but if they did. I would definitely do that. So it's another way of letting people in to get to know you so you build that relationship which brings them back to the website again. That's just another reason to come back. Hey you know. I was watching. Whatever tiger king on net flicks links out of the show notes jordan harbinger dot com. So there are lots of strategies here. How do you get better at doing something. Well obviously practice practice practice. You put the reps in if you're lifting weights but one of the things you can do is look at other people who are succeeding going Is there anything they're doing that either. I can look at and try to mimic or go. Ooh that's a good idea. But what if we did it this way. This would fit my audience. Banner or things like that. So you in the same way that you can learn from your mistakes. It's better if you learn from other people's mistakes but likewise it is pretty cool to learn from other people's successes now keep in mind. There is only one jordan harbinger. Trust me really super cool dude. I got to hang out with him once for a week in australia. Really and if you try to do the jordan harbinger show. It's not going to work. You know y being jordan. Harbinger comes very natural to jordan harbinger. E is a guy. He just the way he takes he. I know most people are not going to read all the books and do all the hard work that he puts into it so be inspired by his strategies and all the things we mentioned today. But if you're like oh you know what i'm gonna call my show the horn jarbyn juror. Show i'm pretty sure that's not gonna work be you. I can't stress that enough when you let your personality. Come out it's going to attract some people now it's not gonna attract everybody but that's okay be you because being you comes very natural to you and people will find you. They will know you they will like you and off. You are to the races so want to say thanks to jordan for let me air parts of his show today and thanks for just being a great guy and a great example with great strategies. He is a guy that he's also for the record. We'll probably talk about this in a future episode. He spending lots of money because he's very successful at this point. He's spending lots of money. Advertising is show on other podcasts. And that's gonna lead me to our next little segment. It's time for an uncomfortable conversation. I put out an article in the podcast business journal. And i said so. Many people say there's a discovery problem with podcasting. There isn't and people lost their mind and one of them. Was tanner campbell from the real talk. Podcasting show lincoln the show notes out at school of podcasting dot com slash. Seven eight six. Here's the uncomfortable conversation. Tanner saying fine. Ability is when you go to google and you type in something. So let's say i type in. I think i've mentioned this golf. Podcast a bunch of them. Come up. he's not saying there's a fine ability problem he saying there is a discover ability problem. And there's a difference between discover ability and find ability and i was confusing. Discover ability for fine ability. Can you see where this is about as exciting as watching paint dry but nonetheless if we understand that some people when they say find when they say discover ability are really talking fine ability than we can see where. We're a little confused. So here is how. Tanner describes discover ability. Discovery works on the ability for machine learning to study your behavior and to make suggestions to you based on that behavior. So it's machine learning driven its algorithm mickley driven and it can only be provided in a centralized format because a decentralized format cannot study you. There's nothing to collect information on your listeners. To track their behavior to guess what they might like and therefore there is no way to make suggestions to them which they are not as you said explicitly looking for so when we were talking about pandora said it might look like this and that way when you're searching for something you find something in the sidebar. That's for an album that you have. You were explicitly not searching for but because the platform understands your behavior it will say yeah but even though they're not searching for this my suspicion is that they would want this and so you see it there. Even though you're not looking for your like who i do want that that's discover ability. You're discovering something. You're not looking for something. And while i understand. It's not a i driven. I do have intelligence in fact follows me all around everywhere. They're called my friends. And when cnn put out a podcast called behind the desk the story of late night all knew that. Hey you know what. I think dave would like this. They suggested to me. I subscribed and i really like it. So i understand that some people might go. That's not ai. Driven the yeah. It's not actual artificial intelligence. It's actual intelligence. And i get by definition. That's not a centrally located. I driven studying your listener of thing but to me it is intelligence that suggests things that i may not know i would enjoy and that is a large chunk of the definition of discover ability. And i realize. I'm throwing this in after the conversation. Which kind of isn't fair. But i get his point. I understand his definition of discover ability. But i view word of mouth as a version of discovery ability. Because that's how i discover podcast but there was more to it so we understand. There's a difference in fine ability versus discover ability. And i brought up that subject. Then okay so. Do we have a fine ability problem then. If there is a problem i think that rest squarely on the shoulders of the person creating content. Because what as an seo thing right we can talk about find ability in the search engines which suck on these platforms and within these apps. I think that all those platforms are probably reasonably equal. Maybe a couple of outliers in how much they suck at the search ability in the app. Yeah so when you're having a dialogue find something you can agree on and we both agreed that. Wow searching apple is horrible. A put a link in the show notes were. I did a youtube video. Showing you just. How bad search in apple is horrible. Which is why. I always tell. People like jordan. Had a subscribe button on your website. Or i guess in these days a follow but neuro follow. Page but tanner had been on the new media show and was kind of saying that you don't need rss which makes my head explode because in my opinion. That's all this is. You need an rss feed an open. Rss feed to truly be a podcast. And so tanner again kind of came up with this alternate idea. When i talked about why thought process was no longer necessary for podcast or to find success. What i was really speaking to. Was that if you approach it in the traditional sense. There's a lot of work you need to do. You need to figure it out whereas if you have a platform which is putting you in front of people who would like you giving you and they bought pods spotify pods. So they're going to be able to do that better and better as time goes on as they begin to implement that attack. If they're also giving an ad platform that you could choose to pay and us if you want and you can specifically target podcast listeners if you want and they have over one hundred million or something. I think it's twenty million users. That are listening to podcasts. I mean if you can do all that in one place and it's easy and the platform works for you versus you can do it over here and be distributed broader but maybe not a crew as large an audience. Because you have to do more work right so. I don't think that the top tier of reach on spotify is greater than traditional process distribution. But i think the likelihood of achieving a reasonable listenership is better or more is higher inside of a centralized platform than a decentralized four the difficulties of that a decentralized hyphen presents. That's really all i was getting at. It's easier to be a big fish in a smaller pond. Yes basically in a nutshell because all tools her there in one place all the stats are there. Okay i get that idea. So crazy campbell. That's crazy that's really all. I'm all i'm saying and i just feel like as new podcasters emerge and guys like us become not the people who are doing the podcasting anymore that those people are gonna say. Oh easier so that. I mean that's technology you said you're in technology for a while so you know that the best thing any technological group can do to sell a really effective product is to make something which is hard easy you know. My grandfather used an axe. My dad used a chainsaw. And i buy a little baggie of wood at the grocery store whenever i need. It's right like i don't have to do that work anymore. And you could make comments about how ridiculous that is and is true but it's also human behavior so that's my piece so that's tanner's piece a little bit of my peace and if you think about it as for making things easier thing about this net flicks knows what you watch. They know what you've thumbed up. Thumbed down they know how far you watch. They know how often you watch and yet there are shows that netflix creates based on your feedback and your habits and they make shows that flop anger has proven that starting podcast was not what was holding back people from starting the next top show. Starting a podcast is easy. Starting a good podcast will take effort talent determination and probably some luck i mean is spotify. Discover ability tool. That's coming since they bought this new pods thing. Is that gonna make you know being is gonna make it easier to be found it. Could it might be as helpful. As american idol is at making superstars. I mean you know like kelly clarkson and carrie underwood and and Yeah anyway for me. I hate arguing semantics. I spent eight years married to a woman that i once had an argument because we went out to dinner and she didn't like her corn so much that she didn't eat it. And when i related this to my brother. I said she hated it and she said i never said i hate it. I hate arguing semantics. So i believe my opinion word of mouth is a discovery engine has been used for centuries it exists and it's not broken and their recommendation engines out there. There's an app good pods. Check it out. But when an algorithm controls who is seeing you become slave to whoever owns that algorithm and these mammoth companies are not known for their customer service. Hello google in the past. These kind of tools were radio and later. Mtv and both were bought by large corporations that ruined the format and resulted in both of them. Losing a large portion of their influence. And in our discussion. Talking with tanner. We talked about the fact that there is no real discover tool for network. Tv so it's not like there are other media outlets out there that have this tool and podcasters do not. I mean sure there's paying door there's not flakes. There's amazon disney plus and they have ways of providing suggestions. But why did i watch. The game of thrones television show. I didn't even have. Hbo i ordered hbo. I started watching. Game of thrones. And i binged the whole thing. Why because somebody told me. It was the best television series ever and i valued that person's opinion and we were talking about different shows like breaking bad and dexter and they said no. No this is the best one ever. But i get it. Look i get it. There are people who call youtube a podcast and for the record. It's not and i get that when someone says there's a discover ability problem. I need to remind myself. They don't mean find ability they might mean discover ability and that those two things are not the same so see you can learn something by having a dialogue and that's one to grow and speaking of podcasting success. That is the question of the month. I need your answers by august. Twenty seventh that is the last friday. Because it'll be coming out the next monday and that is and don't go by. This is your definition of success. Whatever that is can you chief podcasting success without being a celebrity. And we if you feel yes then why if you feel no then why no judging here i'd love to hear again both sides of that for the record. I'm kinda yes person. But that i'm free to as you heard. Today i'm free to hear a different side of the of the opinion that different side of the coin. And kinda go. Oh that's where we differ. Here doesn't mean he's wrong doesn't mean i'm right. It just means we have a difference of opinion when it comes to something like that so to answer. There's just go to school with podcasting dot com slash question. And all you need to do is say something like this. Hey i'm dave jackson from the school of podcasting dot com. Where helped you plan launch. And grow your podcast. My website is school. Podcasting dot com. And i believe like you can or can't achieve success without being a celebrity. And here's why and then you answer it and then at the again. You've already said your website you've said the name of your show just remembered there are no trophies for people. Say that the fastest. So say slowly say clearly. So i don't have to keep hitting rewind rewind play it slower and i can easily make show notes so again school the podcasting dot com slash question. And i need that by august. Twenty seven th and. If you're looking to start a podcast i would love to hear from you simply go out to school. Podcasting dot com slash. Start i'm going to help you. Connect with your audience. I'm gonna help you sound just superb without spending a million dollars on equipment. In fact i'm gonna. I've helped so many people not buy stuff that they planned on buying them like. You don't need that and next week's episode is going to be based on a report that one of the brilliant minds in these school of podcasting facebook group. The one and only shane widely from torpor. Noor and spy berry lincoln. The show notes. He found this report. And i was like holy cow. This is amazing. And i thank you. You've now given me content for next week's episode and that's the kind of stuff it's not. It's a spam free zone. We're all trying to build our podcast together and you can be part of that group by going to school the podcasting dot com slash start. Use the coupon code listener and remember. There's a thirty day money back guarantee. If you're listening to this on the day it came out which is august second. i'm in nashville tennessee. At podcast movement. If your podcast movement. I will be at booth. Please stop by and say hi. I love to meet people that. Listen to this show. We can kind of talk about your show my show anything like that. Please stop by and visit me. I really do look forward to meeting you. And i wanna thank you for joining me on my mission to rid the world of boring podcast until next week take care. God bless class is dismissed loud and consequently and he's aware of this feedback. Friday is in You'd yeah it is that it's exactly that look. I'm not meeting with my enemies. Damn you fruit fly. Actual article has value. It's actually really real really. it's well written. I'm not very well spoken at the moment. Kidman how are you. I'm thankful for you're doing this. I know that these conversations can seem very on twitter. They're very aggressive. These guys are gonna kill each other album real life. We're not built for that nerds words yeah.

jordan jordan darryl chuck berry google daryl starbucks jordan jordan jordan harbinger george harbinger Daryl davis dave jackson klu Darryl Alex bloomberg gimblett media roger kelly guzman roger mr kelly
Pushkin Honors Juneteenth

Deep Background with Noah Feldman

27:50 min | 3 months ago

Pushkin Honors Juneteenth

"Pushkin hi listeners. If jacob weisberg here i'm the ceo of pushkin industries. At pushkin. we think of june team as an opportunity to reflect on the past and think about the future. How do we build a more just and equitable society. We strive to make podcasts. That helped to answer that question. And in honor of juneteenth were highlighting two of them be anti-racist is hosted by dr abram ex candy an author professor activist and historian his book how to be an anti-racist has become a guide for anyone interested in dismantling the structures that racism creates the podcast. Give him a chance to dive. Deep into issues like immigration sports in voting rights with guests like julio castro jamal hill. You're going to hear an excerpt from a conversation. Dr candy had recently with author and political analyst. Heather seemed to be they focus on the economic costs of racism for everyone. Not just those in black or brown communities and how diversity can lead to economic prosperity for all. Then you'll hear a truly remarkable story of bridging racial divide. Daryl davis black jazz musician. Who is convinced. Hundreds of kkk members to leave the clan. It all started with one conversation anna jazz club because i was interested in understanding people with wildly different views. Daryl appeared a slight change of plans. A podcast hosted by dr. Maya shankar shankar is a cognitive scientist. Who's fascinated by what happens when we find ourselves at the break of change and she's got a knack for getting people including hillary clinton and tiffany haddish to open up to her. Here's dr kennedy on. Be anti racist welcomed to be antiracist in action podcast where we discuss how to diagnose dismantle and abolish racism how to save humanity from the divisiveness of racist ideas and the destructiveness of racist power policy. Had a free humanity through the unity of anti-racist ideas and the constructiveness of anti-racist power and policy won't be antiracist. We discussed how to make the impossible possible how to bring in to be what modern humans have never know adjust an equitable world. You ready. Let's roll in the nineteen thirties and forties. The united states went on a nationwide building boom of public amenities for by tax dollars. Which in montgomery alabama included the oak park pool which was the grandest one for miles except the oak park pool was for whites only when a federal court finally deemed this unconstitutional. The reaction of the town council was swift. They decided they would drain the public pool rather than let black families swim to. They never rebuilt the pool. Racism has cost for everyone. Heather mcgee is an expert in economic and social policy and the author of the bestselling book. The some of us would racism. Cost everyone in how we can prosper together. Heather explodes one of the greatest. Racial mets that white people lose as people of color game. She shows that racism wins. We all lose. Heather is one of america's sharpest thinkers the former president of the inequality focused take demos and his drafted legislation testified before congress in contributed regularly to new shows including. Nbc's meet the press. She now chairs the board of color of change. The nation's largest online racial justice organization. I sat down with heather mcghee recently to learn how by investing in each other. We can all cheap better jobs. Better health better democracy better schools better neighborhoods for our kids and so much more. Heather is always. It's truly an honor to speak with you your book. The some of us is the type of book that i learned from that. I think many americans many people around the world can learn from. I wrote this book. Because i felt like we were missing something. In the great pursuit of a society. It should be to have progress to have. People have less wont and more joy people to have more of the fruits of economic progress in technological progress and for our problems to be solved generation after generation rank and it felt like back progress the slowing down slash reversing when some americans imagine the transformation of this country. They imagined that they're gonna lose if we actually create an equitable and just anti-racist america and it seems as you've written that's based on a zero sum myth So i left a career in economic policy to go out on this quixotic journey in some ways to find the answer to the question of. Why can't we seem to have nice things. And what are the roots our dysfunction and it's there that i came upon this paradigm of the zero sum. It's a term that means there's no such thing as mutual progress when you have people who are in a competition with one another team. As scores one more point team be scores. One less point the points will always add up to zero positive on one side. Negative on the other. Progress for team has to come at the expense of team being. There's limited or fixed pie and that idea resonated so deeply with me. It's sorta gave a name a description to something. I'd sensed my whole life. This fear that when white supremacy falls that the world will become one that people should fear therefore racism is really great for white people really terrible for people of color and so their self interest in preserving racism at all costs. and it's the at all cost piece. That really felt so important for me to lay out. What are the costs of racism to our entire society. What exactly is the price. White people are willing to pay to cheap the system as it has been and once i started looking the list just kept growing and that made it clear to me that we have these self interested elites packaging marketing selling zero sum y to most white americans and they're doing it for their own profit but our side when we only talk about racism as something. That's good for white people kind of like help it out a little bit right. You're my provocation agitation. That made me feel like okay. Maybe i do have something to add to this conversation was. We haven't told the full story of what it has cost this entire country you were specifically writing about white folks who think that they're gonna lose but as a man of color reading it. I also think men of color to have bought into this myth of the zero sum. And i think that as they've seen women of color organizing and advocating and in some cases rising they too have felt threatened as if they're losing. Yeah but back to white folks. This is what i've been sort of saying. And i want to know whether i'm just that white americans typically compare their locked to people of color and so in other words if their school has more resources in a way. Their child's school is almost like a first class school. They're like well if we create equity. I'm gonna be back and coach. Yeah i don't want that. I'm gonna lose my kids gonna leave but it seems to me that white america should be assessing themselves from other white people in the west. Yeah and when they make that comparison that's when they can see actually what they don't have how that's right and in fact maybe in other societies in the western world. Everybody's just in verse last. There's no little curtains that the flight attendant move over and everyone gets food right. Everyone has allegro. Everybody gets to bring a bag sack. This really comes from his a feature of how brutally hierarchical our society is in the first chapter of the some of us. I go back in our history. I am. I am like somebody else here. This conversation not in the story. But i felt like i had to go to the beginning to find out where this zero sum world view in the slide came from. Who's interested served. And why sort of reanimated generation after generation and as it turns out it was created as a way to sort of discipline white europeans in the colonial era to be satisfied with their lot in a society where wealth was still quite concentrated. And where because of chattel slavery in the plantation. Economy there actually wasn't a lot of room a white person who was not a plantation owner. Their labor wasn't needed in the southern economy. What do we need you for right. This myth of white supremacy was sold to white masses. So that they could have a forces. Wbz voice said the psychological wages of whiteness rather than material wages and the psychological ways. Were knowing always that in a deeply unable economy they could nonetheless count on being more than and better than black. Now hang on for the amazing story of daryl davis from slight change of plans so i was riding in my car. I'm driving and this clansman was sitting in my passenger seat and we got on the on the topic of crime and he made the mention that people are born with a gene. That makes them a violent and i said look. I'm is black as anybody you've ever seen. I have never done a drive by or a carjacking. How do you explain that. This man did not hesitate one second. He answered me instantly. He said you are. Gene is latent. Hasn't come out yet. That's daryl davis a blues musician and yeah you heard him right. He's driving in his car with a member of the ku klux klan speechless. I was dumbfounded. And he's sitting next to me. Wall smug insecure. You see you have nothing to say. And i thought about it for a moment rather than attacking. You say it's not true. It's not true. I said to him. I said you know why people have gene within them that make them serial killers and he. So why would you say that. I said well face it name me three black serial killers you thought about it. You couldn't name anybody you couldn't do it. I rattled off charles. Manson jeffrey dahmer. Henry lee lucas john wayne gracie ted bundy david berkowitz son of sam albert. Desalvo's the boston strangler. And i said son. You are a serial killer. And he daryl. I've never killed anybody. I said you're genus layton. Hasn't come out yet. He said well that's stupid. And i said well duh. It is stupid and he got very very quiet. And i could tell that the gears in his head spinning superfast by burning a hole in there and then he on later. He changed the subject but within five months. This guy with the ku-klux-klan twin since that car ride thirty years ago. Daryl davis has gone on to convince dozens of people to leave the ku klux klan. Convincing someone else to change their mind. Their view of reality is one of the most elusive coveted types of change. Which is why daryl story feel so improbable so how does he do it. I s shankar as a cognitive scientist. I've always been fascinated by how we change our minds and why we change our minds on the show i'll have intimate conversations with people who've navigated extraordinary change and hopefully their stories will get us to think differently about change in our own lives. This is a slight change of plans. Act daryl didn't set out to change anyone's mind. He was mostly just focused on his music but one night his life took an unexpected turn when he was playing a show at a bar called the silver dollar lounge. Silver dollar lounge at the time was an all white lounge. And i say that not meaning that black people could not go win but meaning that they did not go in by their own choice because they were not welcomed there somewhere where you're not welcome and alcohol is being served sometimes. It's not make for a good combination especially when you're outnumbered so we took a break. After the first set and i was walking across the dance floor to go sit with the bandmates when somebody approached me from behind and put their arm around my shoulder. Not i know anybody in this place. I'm turning around to see who's touching me and it was this gentleman maybe fifteen eighteen years older than me and he's all excited. He says man. I show like your piano. Playing this is the first time i've ever heard a black man play piano like jerry lee lewis and i told him i said well jerry. We got it from the same place. I did from black blues and boogie. Woogie piano players are not enough. I never heard no black men play like that you. Julia invented that style. I said look. I know jerry lee lewis. He's a good friend of mine. He's told me himself. We're hearing how to play the died in by that either but he was so fascinated with me that he wanted me to come back to his table. He's gonna buy me a drink. So i don't drink but i have a cranberry juice he bought. It paid the waitress and then he took his glass and he clinked my glass and cheered me and then he announces you know. This is the first time. I ever sat down with the black man and how to drink so innocently. I asked him why and he didn't answer me. At first. i asked him again and his buddies sitting next to him elbowed him said talent talent and the guy looked at me and said i'm a member of the ku-klux-klan well i burst out laughing at him. Because now i do not believe him. I thought he was. You know putting the joke me. I'm laughing. He goes inside his pocket pulls out his wallet flips through it and hands me his clan membership card. I recognize the plan insignia which a red circle with a white cross and a red blood drop in the center of the cross. And i'm thinking to myself my goodness this is for real so i stopped laughing but he was very friendly and very appreciative of my music and art excited. He gave me his phone number to you know. Call him whenever. I was to return to this bar with this band and so i call him every six weeks and say hey man. I'm down there at the silver dollar this weekend. Coming out each say. It's so nonchalantly. Like so i called the guy. It is remarkable that you call this person and know. I don't think i'm alone in struggling to understand what was going through through your mind at this moment. If someone told me that they were in the freaking clan. I would certainly not call them back in fact i probably just flee the scene and i think this is for pretty good reasons. I was questioning myself. What the heck am. I doing sitting here with clansman but the guy was friendly. He disputed the things that i had in mind of the image over typical clansman and he wanted to share my music with some of his fellow klansman clans women and they would get on the dancefloor and dance to arm use it. They didn't come in robeson. Drake came in. You know regular clothes. This goes on for a year. An entire year. Darrell would play a gig at this bar and he would invite clan members to watch him play. This is one of those things. That makes daryl so unusual. I mean for me. A huge part of what makes someone who they are is their belief system and so if we share the same taste in music. That's fine that's great. But if i then find out there a flagrant racist that's going to fully eclipse everything else about them. So how sterile pass that. He says it's not like that. He wasn't looking past it he wanted to learn from it. See darryl had spent his early childhood overseas in a school he describes as a united nations for little kids race was always in the background but when he moved back to the states when he was ten he couldn't escape racism and ever since then he's been interested in why people hate. I had had an experience at the age of ten where some racist people threw rocks and bottles at me. A parade in which i was the only black participant and never having had this happened to me before. I was perplexed as to why we're doing this and when later my parents explained that it was racism. My ten year old brain could not process the idea that someone who had never seen me before who had never spoken with me and you nothing about me would want to inflict pain upon me for no other reason than the color of my skin. You know that just did not compete with me while later. When i realized this was true there are people like that. I formed a question in my mind. Which was how can you hate me. When you don't even know me and some people will just say well. Daryl you know that's just the way it is when it's not just the way it is there has to be a reason behind it. Well it's always been that way. That was not good enough for me. I want to get to the nucleus of it. So darryl dedicates himself to answering this question. He devours books about race and racism. He reads nearly every book that exists on the clan. But he's still unsatisfied so he decides he wants to write his own book about the clan. All the books written on the clan except for mine have been written by white authors. You know white authors obviously have an easier time getting in contact with the plan sitting down and not fearing any ramifications or whatever or they might even join the klan undercover a clansman would have a different perspective sitting there talking to a black person then he would white person and how how do you feel that perspective would have been different. Because he's sitting there telling the person that he hates why he hates them so now he's having to face me and face those same questions. You know that that somebody would ask or even different questions that are that are white. Interviewer journalist would not ask because they don't think of him because they don't feel the things the same things that i feel as daryl starts researching for his book. It suddenly dawned on him he already knows someone in the clan that guy from the silver dollar lounge so he goes on a mission to track him down. It takes a while but eventually he finds the guys address and i knocked on the door unannounced and he opened the door and sees. Because daryl what are you doing here and look. You looked up and down the hallway to see if i brought anybody with me so it was more him than who was intimidated than me and when when he stepped out of his apartment i stepped in so he turns around back in so now we're standing inside his apartment and he says you know what's going on you still playing what's going on i say i i'm so playing but listen i need to talk to you about the clan. He says the plan. I said yeah he goes. Well i quit. I quit a while back as well. Where's your clan stuff. These as they came and got it. And i said what do you mean they came and got you robin hood. You don't you own it and he explained to me when you join the plan if you have the money to pay for it you can purchase your robin hood and it's yours to keep forever. If you cannot afford it at the time you can still take it home with you but you put a little extra money in every time you pay your dues until you pay it off so lately kind of thing does our financial aid system within the clan love it yes exactly equal opportunity for everyone who's racist absolutely so anyway. He said that they came and got it but when they came to get it he could not find the mask and he's he has since founded and he needed to return it and said what can i say it. So he goes down. The hallway comes back in hands. Me the mask and i said to him i said. Do you know roger kelly. he was. Yeah roger was my grand dragon. I know him. And i said well. Listen i need you to hook me up with mr kelly. I want you to interview him. A book from the clan. Now let me explain how the hierarchy of the plan works. You understand these terms We would call a state leader of governor. They call that the grand dragon. Mayor that person's known as the result at cyclops. Anybody in the great level is important. Seventies names this is truly a yeah but see. that's also what attracts people because the titles feel important. It's a sense of self-importance you know. Because they're not getting that from the society in which they live so you know this brotherhood this gang if you will give them those things. So at the time. Roger kelly was grand dragon. State leader from maryland. So so i tell you what you need to return this mass right. He said yeah. I said give me. Roger kelly's phone number and his address and i'll go two hundred four you and he snapped right out of my hand and said no way and so i begged and pleaded with them while he finally gave it to me on the condition that i not reveal mr kelly where i got it and he warned me darryl do not go to. Roger kelly's house roger. Kelly will kill you. And i said well. That's that's the whole reason why i need to talk to mr. Kelly i know why would he kill me with what is going on in his mind when he sees me. I have to understand this. You did realize that you might not get the answer to the question. If in fact the dangerous happened. I write a true. This is true. But i but i i was thinking that i would. I would prevail. I'm the u turn optimist. If you will. I am not the eternal optimist and darryl's decision feels incredibly risky but anyway he has the secretary mary call and schedule the interview and he gives her one important instruction tell him. I'm blacked and see if he would consent to sitting down and giving her boss an interview. I figured you know he might pick up in my voice. That i'm black and i didn't want him to hang up the phone. Am i talking to you. In my whole project would end it before it ever got started. Roger kelly agrees to meet for an interview one evening at a nearby motel. Daryl gets to the motel early with mary. He's not sure. If roger will even agree to step foot in the room but if he does. Darryl wants to be hospitable. He asked mary to philip. The ice bucket. And by some sodas and then they start arranging the room. There's not much to arrange. There's the ice bucket a table two chairs and darryl's canvas bag which has his tape recorder and a bible. The plan claims to be a christian organization and they plan that the bible preachers racial separation. Now in my reading of the bible. I have never seen anything like that in there so i wanted to be able to pull up my bible and handed to him and say here mr kelly. Please show me chapter and verse where it says. Blacks and whites must be separate. So i'm prepared right right on time right to the minute. Five fifteen knock knock knock on the door in wants what is known as the grand nighthawk nighthawk means bodyguard security. He's dressed in military camouflage and he has that clan patch on his chest on one side on the other side of his chest or the initials k. k. k. and embroidered on his cap said knights of the klux klan and on his hip he had a semiautomatic handgun and holster. He comes in mr. Kelly is walking directly behind him carrying a briefcase and a dark blue suit and tie and the nighthawk turned the corner and saw me and just froze in his tracks. So mr kelly slammed into his back and knock this guy forward and now that they both are stumbling around trying to regain their balance and they're like looking all around the room on. Something's not right here. And i'm just sitting at the table looking at their faces and i could read their faces like a billboard Their faces were saying to me Did the district give us the wrong room number. Did we misunderstand something or an ambush. So i saw the apprehension and so i stood up and just played both of my palms to show. I had nothing in my hands. And i walked forward. I extended my right hand. And i said hi mr kelly. I'm darrell davis I hope both of these conversations inspire thinking and conversation around issues of race you can find more episodes of be anti-racist a slight change of plans wherever you get your podcasts.

oak park pool Daryl davis Heather daryl daryl davis jacob weisberg pushkin industries dr abram ex candy julio castro jamal hill Dr candy anna jazz club Maya shankar shankar tiffany haddish dr kennedy america Heather mcgee heather mcghee Daryl Wbz Manson jeffrey dahmer
A Slight Change of Plans

The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos

26:31 min | 4 months ago

A Slight Change of Plans

"The pushkin There are lots of things that are pretty awesome about being a professor at yale and happiness expert but the thing about my job that makes me. Most grateful is the fact that i get to interact with such fantastic students. My undergrads have gone on to be scientists and lawyers doctors novelist. Startup founders and craft. Beer brewers but i somehow never expected that one of my star psychology students maya shankar would grow up to become a podcast host. Just like me. And that she'd have an amazing new podcast on the science of behavior change. It's called a slight change of plans. In retrospect though. I probably shouldn't have been surprised. And that's because she experienced her own devastating not so slight change of career plans when she was still only a teenager. If you had asked my back in the day she wanted to be when she grew up she would have given you a pretty quick answer. Hundred percent of violinist. That was the thing i was super into. I started playing when i was six. My mom had my grandma's violin in the attic from india. She brought it all the way with her. She asked my three older siblings if they wanted to play and they were like like. This isn't cool. And apparently i wasn't that cool so i was like this sounds great and i fell in love with it really quickly practicing. Didn't feel painful for me. I also just loved the idea. That like i could work hard at something and then i could see myself get better. So you're getting better and better and then all of a sudden when you're fifteen everything changed. Yes it coincided. I think when. I was at my peak as violinist so at this point. I'd been studying juilliard for about six years. Perlman had asked me to be his private violin student. Even my parents who had always been like we would really like it if you went to a liberal arts college. Not do this music thing. We're like oh actually yeah. Maybe my can't do the violent thing so like we are all getting behind this This idea of becoming or trying to go pro. It's obviously very very tough industry and then it was just playing a really challenging piece and i overstretched my finger and i tore tendons in my hand. It was a very serious injury and then finally doctor said sorry kid but you're out of lot this. This career is over. So what's that like. You're in highschool. You thought you had this career all mapped out and all of a sudden it just totally went away. Yeah it was very disorienting as a kid. You're you just don't engage in a ton of introspection right like who am i. Don't ask yourself any questions. But then suddenly at fifteen when the violin was taken away from me. I was forced to examine this question of who i was and i realized like this whole time. I have felt like a violinist first and foremost even before i was my i felt like i was a violinist. My right shoulder to this day is a little higher than my left one because my arm spent so many hours practicing like my body grew in a way that aligned with the way. The violins like were so. It's only at that moment. You realize that well. This thing was a huge part of my identity. And now that i don't have it anymore. I have no idea what comes next. And i was really scared i was like i don't i don't know if i'm going to love something as much. I don't know if i'm good at anything else. I don't i don't if i'm passionate about anything else like all. These questions came to mind but being good something being passionate something that all came pretty quickly in a new field like my field. The field of psychology right. Well thanks to you so basically. Yeah the summer for college. I'm dealing with the fact that this thing that i thought even got me into college in the first place violin is no longer thing so i'm like i don't know what it is that i want to study and then i read a an interesting cognitive science book over the summer and my brain lit up and i was like. Oh my gosh. The study of the mind is fascinating. Like i just never thought about this stuff before i never. I never fully appreciated like how bad ass. Our minds are always. We're always like criticizing ourselves or annoyed. Some personality trait we have. And you're just like read these books and you're like we are all crushing it basically each and every day just by virtue of living so i just felt like i was in awe of the mind but then i was like well. What do i do with this. And so i was looking through the course catalog and i see that there is this nature called cognitive science. And you're one of the leaders of the program right and i've ever reading in the course book that it was like an admissions only major. So oh no i. first of all don't feel like. I even deserve to be hurting more. And i now want to do a major. That's like applicant only like. I just felt totally overwhelmed. And so the way you dealt with helix. Oh totally overwhelmed is that you chose to reach out to young you professor in this field of cognitive science me luckily santos. Luckily i have found your first email to me that you sent me way back in the day. Here's what you wrote you wrote it is. It's torture for me too. I was young back then. It was much. Here's what you wrote. You wrote dear professor santos. I am a freshman this year and calhoun college. I am heavily interested in cognitive science. And i was wondering if you had any openings and so i kindly wrote back to. You is like a keener freshman and told you about my lab and what was funny is that you wrote back to me and your enthusiasm was so klink rich and incredible you say. Thanks so much for your reply exclamation point. I was extremely excited. I remember so. I went to the first day of your class right and i show up the lowly freshman and the room is packed. All these upper classmen people who wanna write their senior theses right. They're all in this room. And there's a limited number of spots okay and so you're like i won't be able accept all of you guys but here's an application process and i felt like i sold my soul on this application process. I was like laurie. You can have my unborn children. You can have anything you want and it was just so amazing of you to give me that chance. Because i was the only freshman that you were willing to let in that year. It changed my life right. It allowed me to see that. I did actually love something like i love the violin. And i just don't take it for granted that you like stepped in at a really crucial moment in my life and of course it was a game changer. For me it was a game changer. For me to mile would go on to become one of my most accomplished students the longer. My estate in the academic ivory tower the more. She realized how much real world behavior she was. Missing out on. I was at stanford studying decision making and i was in the basement of this effort. I lab and i was like scanning the stews brain. I'd been this like dark windowless room for like five hours at this point peering into this person's brain who i haven't had a conversation with. I don't know what his middle name is. I don't know what his favorite ice cream flavor is. There's lots of fundamental things. I don't know about this person. And i remember thinking i feel like i. I want to engage with people. I want to be on teams. I want to have like a hyper social dynamic and the scanning part of the straw scanning is just not for me. So i called you and i was like high. So i've been doing this like academic thing for like ten years now. But i actually don't think that i wanna do it anymore. I had no idea what came next and you shared with me that there was some amazing work happening in the white house at the time. It never cross my mind that cognitive scientists could go work in the government. You and i talked for for so many years at this point about the potential of behavioral science. When do you use injunctive versus descriptive norms. Like what's the power of the growth mindset right when you talk about all these things and then i remember in this interview. I had with the senior obama. White house official. I'm talking about these ideas in the abstract and his response is first lady. Michelle obama like. We can absolutely integrate that into her. Let's move initiative. And i was like what is happening in my life. This is this is totally insane like we can actually make this happen in the end. She not only got hired but was offered a chance to start her own social and behavioral sciences team. To make real changes. She helped military service members enroll in new retirement savings program. She worked to ensure that eligible children had access to reduce school lunches. She helped family farmers more easily. Understand the steps needed to get a micro loan but the biggest thing. Her new role taught her was the importance of finding out about people's lived experience. Yeah it helped me see if the power of stories and the fact that when it comes to changing a person's life or you know helping to inspire change in their lives maybe the first place we should go is is to hear people's stories and the next you know we look at the science and so that's one of the big. Inspirations behind your new podcast a slight change of plan so so. What is this podcast. Yeah it is podcast. That's all about change. It features really intimate raw conversations with people who have experienced extraordinary changes of all kinds. And i've learned so much from doing this podcast about all the contours change that exist in the kind of impact. That change can have on a person's life and like you know we dig in like. What is that process like. I've heard this come out. In so many interviews people saying they felt so much trepidation or fear in advance of a big change. But then what you find in virtually every case is that they are grateful that they went through the change. Even if the change didn't end in exactly the place they had wanted to end even if it taught them something wildly different than what they thought they were going to be taught. They do feel like they've grown from that change. There is a tension between change and happiness and a lot of ways which is like changing ourselves changing our minds. It's a deeply uncomfortable process right. It is so much easier to live our life. Not questioning the values. We have the ideas. We have the opinions that we have. But we know it's worth it in the end right. We know that that trade off is worth and so. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on like how we can try to incentivize people to want to change. Even though we know you might take a short term hit and happiness. I mean i think you know. One thing we know from the science is that people are awful at predicting the kinds of things that are going to make them happy and it was one of the constant themes on. This podcast is that we're really bad at what's called affective forecasting right predicting how things are going to go in the end. I think one of the things you're seeing in so many of your episodes is like if you can get through the friction if you can get through the fear that comes with the prediction in the end things are gonna wind up being much better. People usually much happier after that change. I think that's completely right. And i feel like that's especially emboldening when people on the are on the receiving end of a change that they really don't desire so for example. I spoke to this young man's scott who is in his early thirties. He's a cancer researcher. And a self proclaimed health nut and control freak so he has spent the last decade of his life totally optimizing for his health. He is a vegan. He does intermittent fasting. He does high intensity interval training. He pours turmeric on all of his food and then at thirty two he gets a stage. Four cancer diagnosis. This is his worst nightmare realized. And what was so fascinating about this conversation. Is that post chemotherapy treatment multiple surgeries a leg amputation. He's sitting outside in his backyard drinking a cup of coffee saying you know. I actually feel as happy now as i did six months ago before. I even got the diagnosis. I loved hearing him. Say that because i was so familiar with the research right always wanted to call bullshit on that for myself. I'm like okay. I'm sure everybody else's that way. But i not that way. I've not that resilience but i felt like scott and i we connected on these levels that allowed me to see like. Oh we're we're more similar. And i remember. He said at the end of the interview. If i had known that i would end up in this place happiness. Wise that this profound change in my life would actually have made me a better person. I would never have feared it. As much as i did in the first place and i just i just found that mean. It's stirring even say that like it was so powerful to hear that a huge. Thanks to maya for talking with me about her new podcast a slight change of plans and now i'm excited to share with you a short clip of her first episode. It's an interview with. Daryl davis a black jazz musician who convinced. Kkk members to leave the clan. Subscribe to a slight change of plans wherever you listen to the happiness lab okay. Here's a quick taster of what's in the show. So i was riding in my car. I'm driving and this clansman was sitting in my passenger seat. And we got on the on the topic of crime and he made the mention that black people are born with a gene. That makes them. Violent and i said look. I'm as black as anybody you've ever seen. I have never a drive by or a carjacking. How do you explain that. This man did not hesitate one second. He asked me instantly. He said you're gene is latent. It hasn't come out yet. That's sterile davis a blues musician. And yeah you heard him right. He's driving in his car. With a member of the ku klux klan was speechless. I was dumbfounded. And he's sitting next to me all smug and secure la you see you have nothing to say and i thought about it for a moment rather than attack him. Just say it's true. It's not true. I said to him. I said you know. White people have gene within them that make them serial killers and he said why would you say that. I said well face it name me. Three black serial killers. He thought about it. He couldn't name anybody. You couldn't do it. I rattled off charles. Manson jeffrey dahmer. Henry lucas john. Wayne casey ted bundy david berkowitz son. Sam albert desalvo's the boston strangler. And i said son you are a serial killer. And he said darrow. I've never killed anybody. I said genus hasn't come out yet. He said well. That's stupid. And i said well it is stupid. And he got very very quiet. And i could tell that the gears in his head. We're spinning super fast. By burning a hole in there and then he a moment later he changed the subject but within five months. This guy quit the ku klux klan. Since that car ride thirty years ago. Daryl davis has gone on to convince dozens of people to leave the ku klux klan. Convincing someone else to change their mind. Their view of reality is one of the most elusive coveted types of change. Which is why daryl story. Feel so improbable. So how does he do it. I'm maya shankar as a cognitive scientist. I've always been fascinated by how we change our minds and why we change our minds on the show i'll have intimate conversations with people who've navigated extraordinary change and hopefully their stories will get us to think differently about change in our own lives. This is a slight change of plans. A students didn't set out to change anyone's mind. He was mostly just focused on his music. But one night life took an unexpected turn when he was playing a show at a bar called the silver dollar lounge. Silver dollar lounge at the time was an all white mountain. And i say that not meaning that black people could not go in the meaning that they did not go in by their own choice because they were not welcomed there and those somewhere where you're not welcome and alcohol is being served. Sometimes it not make for a good combination especially when you're outnumbered so we took a break. After the first set and i was walking across the dance floor to go with the bandmates when somebody approached me from behind and put their arm around my shoulder. Not know anybody in this place. So i'm turning around to see who's touching me and it was this gentleman maybe fifteen eighteen years older than me and he's all excited. He says man. I sure like your piano. Playing this is the first time i ever heard a black man play piano like jerry lewis and i told him i said jerry got it from the same place. I did from black blues and boogie. Woogie piano players are no no no. I never heard no black men play like that's for you. Ju- really invented that style. I said look. I know jerry lee lewis. He's a good friend of mine. He's told me himself here and how to play the died in by that either but he was so fascinated with me that he wanted me to come back to his table. He's gonna buy me a drink. So i don't drink but agreed to have cranberry juice. He bought it paid the waitress and then he took his glass and clinked my glass and cheered me and then he announces time. I sat down with the black man and how to drink so innocently. I asked him why and he didn't answer me. At first i asked him again and his buddies sitting next to him elbowed him as a talent talent and the guy looked at me and said i'm a member of the ku-klux-klan well i burst out laughing at him. Because now i do not believe him. I thought he was. You know put on a joke on me. i'm laughing. He goes inside his pocket pulls out his wallet flips through it and hands me his clan membership card. I recognize the plan. Insignia which is a red circle with a white cross and a red blood drop in the center of the cross. And i'm thinking oh my goodness you know this is for real so i stopped laughing but he was very friendly and very appreciative of of my music and art cited. He gave me his phone number to call him. Whenever i was to return to this bar with this band and so i call him every six weeks and say hey man. I'm down there at the silver dollar this weekend. Come on out you say. It's so nonchalantly. Like so i called the guy. It is remarkable that you call this person and you know. I don't think i'm alone in in in struggling to understand what was going through through your mind at this moment. If someone told me that they were in the freaking clan. I would certainly not call them back. In fact i probably just flee the scene and i think this is for pretty good reasons. Well you know. I was questioning myself setting. What the heck am i doing sitting here with the plans men but the guy was friendly. He disputed the things that i had in mind of the image over typical clansman and he wanted to share my music with some of his fellow klansman and clans women and they would get on the dancefloor and dan storm use it. They didn't come in robeson right. They came in regular street clothes. This goes on for a year. An entire year. Darrell would play a gig at this bar and he would invite clan members to watch him play. This is one of those things. That makes daryl so unusual. I mean for me. A huge part of what makes someone who they are is their belief system and so if we share the same taste in music. That's fine that's great. But if i then find out there a flagrant racist that's going to fully eclipse everything else about them. So has daryl look past that. He says it's not like that. He wasn't looking past it he wanted to learn from it. See darryl had spent his early childhood overseas in a school he describes as a united nations for little kids race was always in the background but when he moved back to the states when he was ten he couldn't escape racism and ever since then he's been interested in why people hate. I had had an experience at the age of ten where some racist people threw rocks and bottles at me during a parade in which i was the only black participant and never having had this happened to me before i was perplexed as to why people were doing this and when later my parents explained that it was racism my ten year old brain could not process the idea that someone who never seen me before who had never spoken with me and you nothing about me would want to inflict pain upon me for no other reason than the color of my skin. That just did not compete with while later when i realized this was true. There are people like that. I formed a question in my mind. Which was how can you hate me. When you don't even know me and some people will just say well. Daryl you know that's just the way it is when that was not just the way it is there has to be a reason behind it. Well it's always been that way. That was not good enough for me. I want to get to the nucleus of it. So darryl dedicates himself to answering this question. He devours books about race and racism. He reads nearly every book that exists on the clan. But he's still unsatisfied so he decides he wants to write his own book about the clan. All the books written on the plan except for mine have been written by white authors. You know white authors obviously have an easier time getting in contact with the plan sending down not fearing any ramifications or whatever or they might even joined the clan undercover a clansman would have a different perspective sitting there talking to a black person then he would have white person and how how do you feel that perspective would have been different. Because he's sitting there telling the person that he hates why he hates them so now he's having to face me and face those same questions that somebody would ask or even different questions that that white interviewer journalist With ask because they don't think of them because they don't feel the things the same things that i feel as daryl starts researching for his book. It's suddenly dawns on him. He already knows someone in the clan. That guy from the silver dollar lounge so he goes on a mission to track him down. It takes a while but eventually he finds the guys address and knocked on the door unannounced and he opened the door and sees darryl. What are you doing here and look. You looked up and down the hallway to see if i run everybody with me so it was more him who was intimidated to me and when he stepped out of his apartment i stepped in so he turns around and comes back in so now we're inside his apartment and he says you know what's going on. Are you still playing. What's going on. I say yeah. I'm still playing. But listen i need to talk to you about the clan. He says the plan. I said yeah he goes. Well i quit. I quit a while back as well. Whereas all your clan stuff these are they came and got it. And what do you mean they came and got your robin hood. You don't you own it and he explained to me when you join the plan if you have the money to pay for it you can purchase your robin hood and it's yours to keep forever. If you cannot afford the time you can still take home with you but you put a little extra money in every time you pay your dues until you pay it off so lately kind of thing does our financial aid system within the clan love it yes exactly equal opportunity for everyone who's racist absolutely so anyway. He said that they came and got it. But when they came to get it he could not find the mask and he's he sends founded it and he needed to return it. What can i see it so he goes down. The hallway comes back in hands. Me the mask and i said to him i said. Do you know roger kelly. he was. Yeah roger was my grand dragon him. So listen i need you to hook me up with mr kelly. I want to interview him. I'm gonna write a book on the plan now. Let me explain how the hierarchy of the plan works. You understand these terms. We call the state leader governor. They call that the grand dragon a mayor that person's known as the exulted cyclops. Anybody on the great level is important. These names this is truly a small she does. Yeah but see. That's also what attracts people because they get titles it feel important sense of self. You know because they're not getting that from the society in which they live so this brotherhood is gang if you will gives them those things so at the time roger kelly was the grand dragon state needed from maryland. So i so. I tell you what you need to return this mess right. He said yeah. I said give me. Roger kelly's phone number and his address and i'll go two hundred four you and he slept at of my hand and said no way and so i beg and plead it with him. Well he finally gave it to me on the condition that i not revealed mr kelly where i got it and he warned me darryl do not go to. Roger kelly's house. Kelly will kill you. And i said well. That's that's the whole reason why i need to talk to mr. Kelly i know why would he kill me. We what is going on in his mind when he sees me. I have to understand this. You did realize that you might not get the answer to the question. If in fact the dangerous part happened i write true. This is true. But but i. But i think you know that i would. I would prevail. I'm the u-turn optimist. If you will. I hope you enjoyed hearing this teaser of a slight change of plans. If you want to check out more of maya's transformative life stories and learn more about the science that goes along with them and subscribe to a slight change of plans today. You can download it wherever you get the happiness lab and all your other podcasts. And not to worry. The happiness lab will be back with season three which will launch later this summer until then stay happy.

maya shankar Daryl davis calhoun college santos Perlman daryl Manson jeffrey dahmer Henry lucas john Wayne casey Sam albert desalvo ku scott Michelle obama laurie cancer stanford darryl david berkowitz india
Jim Crow and the rise of blackface

Retropod

05:14 min | 2 years ago

Jim Crow and the rise of blackface

"Richard pod is sponsored by T. Rowe price. Are you looking to learn a thing or two about getting your finances in order saving and investing? Check out the confident wallet a personal finance podcast series by T. Rowe price and the Washington Post brand studio find it wherever you get your podcasts. Hey history lovers. A Mike Rosen walled with retro pod. A show about the past rediscovered Jim crow. You've no doubt heard this name before it's a name that has stood for hate and for the laws. The Jim crow laws that made racial segregation in the south legal until the civil rights movement in the nineteen sixties now that ugly name has reemerged in the American vernacular. Thanks to the recent political scandals and folding in Virginia where both the governor and attorney general have admitted to wearing black face in their pass. I took responsibility for content that appeared on my page in the eastern Virginia medical school yearbook that was clearly racist and offensive. So what's the connection between Jim crow and black face? Well back in the eighteen thirties. Jim crow wasn't yet a symbol of inequality. He was a fictional character. In minstrel shows who to entertain his audiences danced like a buffoon and spoke with an exaggerated imitation of black slave vernacular intended to be comedic minstrel shows were first performed in New York with white actors who wore tattered clothing, and you shoe polish to blacken there faces according to the Smithsonian's national museum of African American history and culture. While society now consider donning black face as clearly racist. According to historians the practice, especially on stage was celebrated by whites in the south following the civil war. The battlefield fights were over the struggle. Over race was not in Jim crow. He was the biggest star of the minstrel shows that denigrated blacks. Who was behind Jim crow? A man a white man named Thomas. Dartmouth rice rice was born in eighteen zero eight in New York as a teenager. He began traveling the country as an actor, according to a university of south Florida history of minstrel shows rice was a dancer and a singer who drew from his observations of blacks in the south to create an extremely exaggerated and stereotypical black buffoon. While he wasn't the first white comic to perform in black face rice was the most popular of his time. And as a result, the character of Jim crow spread becoming a common stage persona. The big lifts the lack of education, the poor clothing. That's how Daryl Davis a black blues musician who has studied these shows described these minstrel characters in an interview it wasn't about trying to look black. He said, but trying to look black away portrays blacks negatively. Davis has long argued that context is key. When judging the use of black face in the nineteen hundreds for example, white artists such as Al Jolson painted their faces as they performed ragtime and blues music pioneered by African Americans Davis credits Jolson with spreading black music to white audiences and advocating for black artists, but many historians think that black face is always racist. No matter who was wearing it. Or why? In the internet age social media has fueled fears over black face you'll get in trouble. If you are a white person who puts on Halloween or black person who puts on Whiteface Halloween like I was a kid. That was okay. As long as you addressing character. Last year talk show hosts Meghan Kelly defended black face on the air. Luke. Kelly was already struggling with poor ratings the episode and the resulting fury led to her ouster. Another high ranking statewide official finds himself embroiled in a black face photo controversy. Here. The country is again talking about black face about minstrel shows about Jim crow. I'm Mike Rosenfeld. Thanks for listening. This episode was adapted from a story written by Michael Bryce Sadler. Jessica contraire in deneen Brown for the Washington Post for more forgotten stories from history. Visit Washington Post dot com slash retro pod.

Jim crow Washington Post Daryl Davis Mike Rosen New York Richard pod Mike Rosenfeld T. Rowe Virginia Al Jolson Meghan Kelly Washington south Florida eastern Virginia medical schoo Michael Bryce Sadler national museum of African Ame
EP. 394 - What We Can Do To Help

Mark Bell's Power Project

1:20:11 hr | 1 year ago

EP. 394 - What We Can Do To Help

"Ladies and Gentlemen Welcome to mark Bells Power Project podcast hosted by the fat guy. Himself Mark Belco hosted by Encima Ian and the voice. You're hearing right now. Myself Andrew Zaragoza today we had just the power project crew, so no guest, and just like a previous episode with just the crew we had intended on on speaking about different topics Today's topic was supposed to be about fat loss and again we started. Canada's expressing all our thoughts and feelings about the George, Floyd situation and everything that's going on drew brees, of just concerns that we all kind of have been. Heading our head lingering around, and we would just kind of spilled them out on all over each other, and we talk to each other through certain things and really what it came down to was. You, know we we kinda started discussing like what can. What can we do to help the situation you? Me I'm not I'm not really going to put myself out there. In harm's way in you know because some of these peaceful protests have been turned violent and I'd like I said I just don't WanNa. I don't WanNa. Get stuck in the middle of. A rock and a hard place area is a tough situation so we basically broke it down into what what we can do to help these situation. That's going on right now and I think you guys are GonNa appreciate it and find some value in it, and before the conversation get started. I WanNa to let everyone know that. Mark Bell Dot Com is offering another free thirty day trial. If you guys haven't been poking around that website, there is now a premium version of Mark Bell DOT COM. It is a quote, more better wrist version of the of the website so basically. You can gain access to the normal Mark Bell Dot com like the movement of the day. That nothing has changed with. Just a whole nother different section where you get even more stuff again last time. We did this this, Promo. We did a lot of body weight stuff with their some gyms that are opening up here and there so you guys are probably sick and tired of bodyweight workouts. So what mark and crew did they're gonNA offer a Free Four Week Post Kovic Strength Program to help build your strength back. It's not just Mark Bell. He brought in Jesse He brought in Kelly stret-! Tons of stuff you know it's GonNa. Be Really freaking awesome on top of that. You gain access to the. The People's coach official scoreboard, so you can literally put points on the scoreboard. It's an awesome way to keep yourself accountable. Ten of like another accountability partner but really it's just to help. Keep you motivated. Keep you coming back. Really keep you on track and on top of that. Not Everybody has the opportunity to come train at the strongest Jim in the West the super training. Training Gym here in West Sacramento, so we're bringing the gym to you guys, you guys now will have the ability to follow every single workout that the entire super training team does so that whole team workout you guys can gain access to that and we're talking stuff from power watt again from Kelley, store it all the way to the fat shaming the Eisler unfamiliar. That's that's just. Basically, our version of doing cardio at the end of a workout. We call it fat shaming because if he don't do it. You of you know you get it anyways again. That's Mark Bell Dot Com. Sign up from from now until the end of June and you'll receive a free thirty day trial all you have to put in your email address and you gain access to the entire website including the premium more better version of Mark Bell Dot Com. So that's it for Mesa Ladies and gentlemen. Please enjoy the show you know what? I I'm jealous of you guys. I think you guys. I think you guys got the salted Caramel Collagen protein? See! I could I could tell by the way you guys are acting today. It was funny. Because in Sima will like I went, and I picked up my salted Caramel mcat oil powder, and then I seen like I can. There's a couple of extra ones over there. And then insieme checked with me. He's like. Hey, there's a there's a few extras here. Did you grab yours and I'm like? Yeah, I did I. Don't know who the other ones were then now. It makes sense. You know just sitting on a pile of those bars and stuff to. The bars are done. You put them on top of each other all at once. They've been done for a few weeks now so. The peanut butter, right. Oh. Man Yeah. Peanut butter cookies. I think the peanut butter cookies. I posted about them, and then they say don't like the not out yet. You can't. You can't be talking about these things, so I think I think they might be out by now. I think they said June. I WANNA say they said like June. June fifth or June, seventh or something like that? They'll be on the website soon enough, but You know this episode we're going to talk about. We're going to go all over the place like we always do, but we're in talked a bunch about fat loss, and just some new things that that we've all been up to to try to maintain a a good healthy strong body, and I think all three of us are in. The best shape of our lives in in a different kind of way then like you know onstage bodybuilding. Shape or you know the shape. Andrew got in for photo shoot. It's it's different, but as a lot more manageable of a lifestyle and you know perfect Kito. They have a lot of products that you can utilize to your advantage. Get some good leverage and stay in tune with a diet and you don't have to be. Near is still going to be regimented. You're still going to have a routine. You still have to. You know you still have to train hard and all those different things, but now you get the the ability to have some things that tastes really good. Get to look forward to some nice nice things got. They have cookies. They have bars. They have collagen powder. They have instant coffee I. Don't know if you guys have messed with their instant coffee before. That's really good to have a MOCHA. They have vanilla Got All kinds of stuff so. I suggest everyone that is trying to you know, stay strict to certain diet, but still wants some good flavor and still want some great products gotta check out the stuff. They have a perfect Kito for more information on Perfect Kito, please. However perfect dot com slash power project at checkout enter Promo Code Power Project Twenty five for twenty five percents off any order of fifty dollars or more. You guys picking up any of the wind I have going on over here, okay? Okay Yeah I WANNA. Make sure it's not like. It's a whisking in my headphones a little bit, but if it's not if you guys aren't picking it up and that's. And that's great. Little Cool. Your background looks like one of those moving screen saver things. Guys, moving quick. We got a lot of win. That's why I was asking. It's The winds pick up to twenty five miles an hour today. Blow Me Away I'm you know I'm only I was two hundred and thirty one pounds this morning. So I'm just GONNA get. Swept Away I'm just trying to get these arms, skinny, and just trying to get flabby. You, know I had a dream a few nights ago. No New York. It was weird. Because in the dream, all I remember was like I was saying Oh. My God I'm only two hundred pounds. I've been telling people. I was to forty and I woke up like. One hundred and I was like wait no! The weirdest. Some underlying shit you're going to. See Him. So Weird Look I've never dreamt about weight and stuff like that. Before oh my gods. Kelly Sarah was going around the his whole life. Now threat is probably help the same height as UNC. May You know give her? Give or take an answer to I don't know who's taller, whatever but. He's a fairly tall guy. And you know Jesse. Burdock as tall as well. You know. He's skis a little a little taller than I am he's he might be about your height. He's he's definitely like the same height as. As Kelly and Kelly said something about being six four. And me, inverting like a double take, and then, and then we looked at Kelly like he was crazy, and then we looked at each other, and we should we. Should inform him like. You know she like or dislike. Let him have it. You know and like just let them think he's six four. You know and. and. I looked at Kelly and was like. You're six four dude. You're just not. And he's like no. No I'm six four, and then he and then he pulls out the doctor thing. He always pulls that shit out. He goes motherfuckers. He's like I'm a doctor. He's. Know How tall I am. He's like I think I would know how to measure on. It was like. Is that something they taught you? In Medical School, and we were just like harassing each other like crazy and then. BIRDIED is like Bernie. We're the same height. He's like I'm six two on a tall day. With shoes on, and he's like so you're not sick. You're not six four going back and forth, and and then there was something that popped up like a few months later stretch gotten really good shape, and he started talking about being eight percent body fat, Wu, and so me and burdette got on a conference call with them, and we said hey remember. The conversation. When you were telling everybody, you were six foot four. was like. Do we have to have a conversation about the eight percent body fat, and he's like I know I know he's like, but it was just one task these like and so I just went off the test like all excited I'm like. You're you're? You're not eight percent body fat Kelly I. Don't know how we could tell you this. But body fat one is one that everyone likes to pull out there like seven percent body fat on eight percent body, fat mouth dry. You're like fourteen. Reminds me of that? Need. To show for it reminds me of that Adam Sandler bit where he's telling me selling them all kinds of drugs and he's like that was just pencil shavings. It wasn't we'd, and he says he so high because I'm so high. He's like Oh because you had the pot. Browning's and he's like yeah man. He's like there's actually no marijuana knows. He's like Oh. It's because I'm so drunk man I. Drink like all a these beers. Liver Non Alcoholic. Oh It's this LSD? You gave me man and he's just like I'm way. Out on this and he's like those were just paper clippings. And then. And, then he goes on to like he tried to commit suicide and he shoots himself. and. He's like. So dead dude in. Adam? Sandler's like it was a cap gun. Fuck. crushing. You guys see the message come through from Our boy smokestack that we're GonNa Have Daryl Davis on the podcast again. saw that. Yeah I've been doing some research poking around like a lot of people that I'm sure listening to the show or are You know hopefully I hope a lot of people are doing it. Maybe not everyone's doing it, but hope. A lot of people are trying to educate themselves. I I know that. You know with what happened. It's hard to. It's hard to see what happened and You know I'm not imagining that anyone's running to the library. You know to like whip out a bunch of books. But really truthfully As, much as that is hard to do, because you get so angry and frustrated. That, that's kind of the best medicine because you know, think about racism, and you think about like fighting it. You know that you hear people. Talk about fighting cancer. we know you're not. You're not really fighting cancer. I like you're not like you know punching a cancer cell. You know you you don't have. We don't have that ability at at the moment to do anything like that. And I think when we think about. When we think about fighting racism. They have the really. We've got to put some logic behind it 'cause. Who are we going to punch and are we going to direct our anger towards? And, that is something that's just not easy to make sense of and after you see someone, get murdered on television. By! Authority by people that are supposed to protect us the leaves. You very confused at least people very, it leaves. A lot of people are very sad, very mad, just very very emotional, a lot of ways, and that is what you WanNa do when you see it happen. You, just WANNA run outside and punch somebody like you. I I'm sure. A lot of people felt that way. You know I'm just like somebody needs to pay for this and it makes you feel like. You want some sort of revenge you know and and I can only imagine how other people felt that are better closer to this or that have been predicaments like that before? How just enraged you'd be! It's It's pretty crazy. All the things that against relearning about like also talking to Andrew about this and I found out about. This guy knows a few months ago. I think his name is. Daryl Richards ads looked Yeah Daryl Richards. You heard about a mark I've heard about him. Yeah that's kind of bad. That was Kinda just showed under the rug, but the thing about the the weird thing about the Daryl Richard Shooting here in Sacramento is that. He's nineteen years old is in two thousand eighteen. You see the body camera footage right I. Don't know if you got the info footage, but you. You see the footage right before the cops gets when the COPS got swim, they're like. Put your hands up pajamas up. The video shoots off on all the cops. Cameras turned back on. He's done on the ground with a pellet gun next him. So, it's like. What our listeners listening in Navy I got the wrong there, because I was trying to like like everywhere else. Saying all that like that footage is like it's not bear. They're saying like something happens body cameras. At that point. It's high, but it's again a situation where you just don't know what happen. I'm not blaming the cops saying they did something, but it's really odd that the footage disappears before shooting happens. On multiple cameras multiple cameras. It's really weird. Yeah there was a guy that's got shot in Vallejo I I think he was I think he's Mexican. I think he's like. I want to say nineteen or twenty, and he just happened to be around like during the. looting and stuff not not just happen to be around me. And he was I think participating, but he went to like put his hands on his head, and they I think from what they said. They said he was on his knees. But. They also said that he had a hammer, so I don't know I. I don't know what he was doing or whatever but. This poor kid got shot and killed, and you know I I think. I. Think you know Seem you mentioned this before? And we've heard cat and other people talk about a Daryl Davis talked about it how there's conversation in in black hole, an African American homes where? You say hey, you know here's here's what potentially can happen. There's a lot of racism out there and I think this is something for all ethnicities to know is that? If you if you get into a predicament with the police, and and you run or you do anything. Anything alarming. You have like a hammer or like you know whatever it might be. Just have to understand how dangerous potentially dangerous that could be. The police. You know they don't learn. They're not you know they're not just gonNA. You know. Try to shoot you in the Shin. They don't know what your intentions are. You know and they're probably GONNA if there if they have to take out their gun. They they are prepared to use it, and I'm sure they're. They're aiming to kill, and that's not situation which is. Which is extremely unfortunate, but yeah. What happened this kid? It's like he's Pie. A young kid had pent-up aggression and anger, and just was frustrated and I'm sure he's doing stuff that he probably shouldn't have been involved in. But at the same time it's like. We know that people don't deserve to be shot we, didn't we? You know it's just. It's hard to make sense of these situations. And now we. We mentioned Multiple Times on the show that you. And I need say for myself to like I know. Officers have a very difficult job like a someone who aids police But it's just like. I saw something where somebody posted that. We need to de-fund the police, I've been hearing about going around right. But that doesn't make much sense because at the end of the day. We do need police. In Society. We need individuals. We can call when something happens like. It's necessary, so we can't default them. Because if you defend. The police can happen while less people don't even want. Become Queen, and we'll have more people for the job. and. It's not like I'm someone who knows exactly what needs to be done, but we've talked about this little bit. It needs to be harder I feel like if anything needs to be harder to become an officer, and maybe maybe because it's so difficult because they go through such rough trading, maybe they they should be paid more. Who Else I don't know, but it just I don't think it makes sense to take away from. That needs to be some sort of reform that you can't pay them less like that doesn't make much sense. He just think about this for a second to like I know they have stuff in police academies right like sensitivity training these kinds of things but like. That's a weird conversation you know. And and again I understand is very difficult to figure out who's the good guy and who's got. Prejudice and I'm not saying any of it is very easy, but. like I. I don't feel like I need to be told that black lives matter like I I know that you know I don't i. don't feel like I. Need a speech about it, you know and some people may be offended by a statement like that, but. I I've always been told that that all lives matter you know. I come from a very loving home and. We have respect for other people even though. I have personally partake in and I mentioned this in other videos. I personally partake in in racial jokes and I'll probably always continue to do that I just. Folks yeah usually usually the banter back and forth is with somebody who? If anybody has ever had a problem with I would hope that they would come to me and say I'm just not. None of that Shit's for me and I would be fine with that, and I wouldn't I'm not going to bully somebody and. keep harping on it, but. You know the the police. The police force earn a very difficult situation. but you would think that you know. Screw screening a lot of heavy screening and I know that they do that I know they have a lot of tests mentally physically. And things of that nature, but I don't think they re up at very often I mean imagine being on the police force like let I'm just going to play devil's advocate and play from the side of the police, right? But to say like every day you're just seeing people act. Mike dirtbags, and and it's all racist, and you just keep seeing people continually lying to you all the time. Now that's not my bag. A WEED DUDE! Like what are you talking about? You know that's not that's not my. That's not my gun. That's up my this is just every day and you're like. It probably wears on you after a long period of time now. I don't know if I. Don't know if those guys get continually tested once they've been in there for a long time, but you would think something that could potentially help. Is that you do? Chard communicate with them or you? Aska the people they work with, and they could say dude like. Marksman, he's like he's been super aggressive. You know when we been out on some. You know he's. He's been a little over the top I. Don't know, and they give you some sort of evaluation and they say hey, look. You know we're going to switch over into. You know a field where you know they potentially don't get into the same. They. Don't get into the same thing. If you have proof of the guys like doing anything to Hor- horrible or whatever right? But The train. The training definitely needs to be stepped up and they might need to put more money into the police departments rather than. Rather than less and I think some people think that you know it's okay to just let people stampede over. The community And a lot of people are against you know what trump called into action, but a lot of stuff that trump was calling in action was just in a response to. I, don't think anybody else knew what to do at that point because it did look like people are kind of over running cities lighting on fire. They're getting very violent. And yes, there's a Lotta images police officers. again probably abusing their power, but something else to think about to make things even more complicated. How much training do people have been real riots? Not a lot, you know not much I thankfully right that we don't have a lot of riots, but. They don't have a lot of training and they keep telling you not to cross this line new cross that line. You! Know I don I. Don't know what they're supposed to do. I would think that in that situation I wouldn't hit somebody if I was the police officer. However, if I've been a cop for ten years, and I've seen what happens when I give somebody just an inch. What happens that they take a mile? You know and I'm thinking about my fellow police officers around me I. Don't want all of us to get stampeded. You know and so. It's just A. It's just a real ugly mess, but I think most people think is cool is that it creates a lot of dialogue? I think most people are in agreement that. We need a lot of changes and a lot of things need to be fixed. I think the answer is more education. That's what they're Davis was preteen, but I have to look into the exact numbers, but I know Dak Prescott donated a of money to assuming at a Texas Police Department to basically implement a program to teach police officers more about. Racial topics or something like that, but I mean he was like. No, we don't need to de-fund them. We need to help educate them. Better saw a do understand how to deal with you. Know certain different demographics and you know just to Kinda. Just give them more ammo so that where they don't need to default to. Brute force, every single time. Funding. Thing just doesn't make much. it little bit ties into the. Sketches that I sent you guys think it was from a Richard Pryor right? It's like you know you have individuals policing certain communities and There is a difference where in one community that police officer could be your neighbor. Right Hey, officer tips them. How's it going today? Sir Right. In another community, like in the black community, none of those people know who's officers are they are automatically seen as as other they're not. They're not seen as part of the same community, so there is a very big difference there, too, which probably they'll be taking into account. I think a a major problem. A major issue that is going to be tough to overcome is I think that a lot of African American. Men and women as well view police officers very dangerous and I think the reverse is true. And, then how do we you know? How do we? Break Bread together and have conversations about how that. You know I I. Don't think it's GonNa come to a screeching hall. But maybe there's ways of of. Not Not passing judgment on each other before. We learn anything about one another you know. How can you hate me if you don't Know Me Daryl Davis thing, which is just. Absolutely brilliant. So I totally agree with what you're saying. Merit and like said Multiple Times. I know that not all cops are bad. I understand most cops probably aren't you know wouldn't do what Derek show did. It doesn't change the fact that I'm still. I'm still afraid when I'm in a situation increase oxygen, not because I did anything wrong. Just because it's like a I gotta be I gotTa have everything where it needs to be right now. So I think like were mostly going to see a change in the way that the black community feels about officers when we t more change in what happens as far as police, structures are concerned that we don't have much reason to be afraid, but until that happens. Were were all going to be justice fearful happened as we've always been, and that's like again. That's not me saying police, or evil or anything, but it's just like. The react like the reaction or being afraid is because of what we see. And! I was talking to one of my friends, and they were talking about how their children. Are Scared. My kids are scared because there's like these riots going on and I said you know what I said. This is a really good opportunity. To talk to your kids and these are. These people are White, and I said was a good opportunity. Talk to your kids and say imagine feeling that way every day. You know imagine being scared like that. Every day of like something could potentially happen I mean especially. Especially, if you had especially, if if you did have a pass, we got in trouble. Even a couple of times just for real minor bullshit you know. then every single time you hear the a cops siren every time you you saw them, and even if he didn't get any trouble, just the color your skin. You know being something that. Is being identified as being dangerous. You know it's just. It's just A. It's a horrible situation and it's been. I think it's been I opening to a lot of people where I don't think they understood I haven't heard like I I personally I. I'll admit I just haven't heard like I. Haven't heard you talk about it that much, Seema. We've talked about race on the on the show before. but I haven't really heard. You mentioned like being like being scared and being like fearful I. Haven't heard you mentioned that situation to happen when you're fourteen. and I haven't heard a lot of the stories that are coming out. Out from a lot of other people because I think a lot of African, American people just thought like this is just like status quo, and why would I bitch about like? Why am I gonNa you know. Why am I? GonNa complain about it, but because of what happened. I think here more people coming forward, and there's story after story after story, and it's just completely one hundred percent on deniable I mean we all know that these things are going on, but they you know they happen, and they get a blown up into a big news story in every every couple years or Pens on how much news I guess you watch how much you'll see of it, but. I think that this is really opened up a lot of people to say oh. Yeah, no, no, that's like you know like the metoo movement as well right like Oh. Yeah, it's happened to me, too, and then you're like what really like Holy Shit like it's happened. To to to so many so. I think it's good that we're hearing the conversations. I mean yeah, like all the reason why I don't bring stuff like that up is. There's never a situation where I needed to bring it up like I. I have friends that we've all had those types of situations right, so we talked about that stuff amongst each other, but that's where conceptually make sense 'cause. Myself might boy Brian Michael Like we. We've all had these situations happen? So it's just kinda normal, but it doesn't make sense. Just bring it up. Randomly had a nowhere right. So, it's just like it is good that there is being awareness brought to that now and again like I think the biggest thing that needs to happen. Just more people need like. I think the biggest thing is voting in just the right officials in smaller offices back in actually help bring about that change because I think that's one thing that younger generations my generation. Doesn't pay much attention to who we put in office. So hopefully that Kinda rides since November. Yet you can't get involved in community, you know. Maybe there's some maybe some small ways that you can get involved or big ways being involved in your community Andrew. Have you ever had anything like that happened like Know because of the type of friends you hung out with or the type of ethnicity hung out with you've ever have. Any particular like run INS with police or anything like that. I remember we did get pulled over because we fit a description, but by no means. Was it anything craze like we didn't get cert- will sorry, I did get searched, but it wasn't like they weren't. I don't even want to say aggressive, but like it was just like very minor like they were just doing it because it was like protocol or something. And I remember like we didn't even have like are the like updated insurance like? It was very like they could have easily been like. No, you're going to jail, but there's no a description, but then they got a call for like something serious, and then they sped off. Didn't even like it was. It was just really weird I remember being like super confused because like I was like really scared like Oh. Shit like we got pulled over like is every like I. Wasn't like Oh. Shit like I'm Mexican. They're white on GONNA. Get caught for something that I'm like because I wasn't doing anything driving. I was more nervous like fuck driver's license. Do I have my insurance card? Like which I didn't because the registration? Sorry had insurance, but the registration I couldn't find like the new and also nervous. But it was like over in a second like it was nothing serious other than that just being you know with a group of friends to you know like in the mall or something and like having like. Owners like us around and stuff which I don't even have a problem with because one of US probably was going to be doing something stupid, but nothing to where like you know I had to go there. They're profiling probably your age almost more than yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, but other shit. Teenage kids are going to cause some problems. I mean yeah, and that's and you know at the time. You know it was like. We're Mexicans whites and you know it wasn't like we were all MEC skin looking like trouble. We're just having to be teenagers. So, thankfully nothing too serious to where I had to like you know run home to my parents and like ask. Tough questions. The I think the worst time for sure was actually in Mexico, which we were held at gunpoint by Mexicans like the like the military was like wait. You're not from here. Hold on Weenie to now search your whole vehicle. That's that's good. The shit out of me. That was terrifying, but again that was in another country, so it was really nice to get back home. You know but so thankfully no I haven't really had to deal with anything serious the way that we've been seeing on TV. I like what you said right there. That's a great thing is that? This is still the best country to live. You know I know. Different people have different perspectives. They might have lived some. They might live somewhere else. They might be patriotic. They might love the country that they're in, but. You, know you hear of sometimes. People talk about the American way. But you. I don't I've never heard that about another country. You know I haven't heard oh I'd say it's the Russian way like an. It's like this. This thing that everybody loves and everybody wants to move to Russia. and. Our where everyone's in in favor of you know Korea or China or you know communism, or whatever whatever it might be. I, mean the still. You, know this. It makes it complicated because. Because we have freedom. You end up with some really distinct disparities like. Like I I think we need you know we need a Lebron James we neither Tom Brady. you know in Etowah Grant Cardona on the show coming up, we we need Gary V. we need a Michael, Jordan. We need an Arnold Schwarzenegger like you don't have those people. In a in a society where they're trying to keep everybody the same like where they're literally trying. What. People are talking about equal rights which I am. In full agreement that we have equal rights equal opportunities to all the same things, but this idea. that. You might think that we want everyone to be equal. That is something to Kinda. Rethink a little bit. You really you kind of. Don't want that you because again like. You know I I understand it can get a little complicated, but. You Wanna be able to to freely. You know Straw strive for the stars. You WANNA freely. Be Able to strive for for for what you want to be able to get in. The unfortunate. Truth is a lot of the ways that our government is set up a lot of the ways that things are set up here just makes it more difficult for certain ethnicities. To To to be able to get momentum headed in the right direction. And so that I mean that's. That's that's the part that's It's just I think. A lot of the younger people are just the other super frustrated with what's going on, and and they're just thinking like. That they want everything to be almost the opposite, and that's not really true. It's just as we have. We have many problems here in the United States, but This is an amplified when I heard somebody say the other day and they said. You know racism has always been an issue, but it's just been like seventeenth on everybody's list. And now here we got it. It's number one so. And I think that's a great point and I hope that. People that really want change. I hope that have the stamina. To really stick with it because it will be a lot ups, it'll be a lot of downs. There'll be a lot of lives lost. Probably there'll be a lot of unfortunate things that happen. Throughout this process like this will be ongoing for. I mean it's it's always been ongoing, but this particular the way it is now. This will be going on for a few years this case right now. That's going on right now. I mean this. these four officers at that got arrested like. This is not gonNA. You're not gonNA hear much about this for about two years like they're. They're gonNA. This is GONNA be slow because they if they if a bunch of stuff started coming out about the case and stuff now. People. Would just keep continue to flip out and it? It wouldn't be good, so they're going to prolong the ship for a long time. It's going to be impossible for them to find a jury. That's GONNA. You know. Be Able to judge this thing fairly at all to. Real quick on what you said. This thing is going to be going on for quite a while, but the crazy thing when you look at the situation, the protests and all of that have been super beneficial towards this case is first off. All officers have been arrested, but I'll just talk about this the first coroner and I think mark. You mentioned this on on prior podcast the first quarter that. That that that you know looked at doors. floorings body said that yet federal this system they're all these other underlying causes that led to his death wasn't necessarily by Sheldon. Right in the second family hired coroner was like no, that was the situation. So you think about this? If there weren't all those protests in there wasn't wasn't these is, and they went off throughout the first quarter said. Would show, even be arrested. By investing the only reason why he's arrested have so many denies paying attention to it that they know you know that if we don't arrest US guys who's going to be more angry people. Right so the thing that kind of is worrying is. In situations like these. When there aren't is on, it is like it's only one societies angry when they're going to see some type of justice or what's going to happen there? That's a really scary thought like one things quiet nickelback normal. We continue to see. We continue trying to move in the right direction. How crazy is that because? I mean. All of this wouldn't I mean if it didn't happen that he would still be a police officer today Yup. After killing somebody like. That That is. I can't even put that into words. HOW INSANE! While there's no video right right. There's no video of a police report. He He'd be off right. Yeah, because what was the police report? It said that he was taken to the hospital, but he was still alive without loss when he died in the hostile about sororities reports that It didn't say anything about and dying on the senior. They could have made the correlation because he did have corona value system. Right. You know you also saw and I I didn't really see clear view of what the other officers were doing, but you did see the one officer. Was Just really not doing anything I mean. His concern was about the crowd, and what which is. That's that's probably what they're trained to do. I. Mean You know you got a guy down the ground and that officer is is preoccupied. And and you don't want that officer to get hurt. You don't know what the crowd is up to. But. As we talked about before in podcast, it's so normal. The he didn't think anything was going on. Really you know he didn't really seem to. He just he had no. He had no concern at all. He just is like he's just numb to it. And you know I think. I think that you know what you guys are saying. If like there wasn't a video in there yeah, because the other officers wouldn't have gone back to the police department and be like hey like. Like I don't know what I just saw like. It wasn't good. I'm an asshole. I didn't do anything it and I you know. What I mean like they they they wouldn't have liked said anything now I do think. I do think one of the guys and I could have the wrong information, but I think one of the guys only been on the squad for just a couple of days. Could you imagine how bad that sucks? You know. Could you imagine like that's your senior officer? You know that's been there for eighteen years or nineteen years. And you've been around for a week. And supposedly this guy was one of the people who who was kind of saying like. Hey I I think we're good like he's subdued like. You know and I I didn't see any evidence in that in the video, but I'm sure more stuff will come out. But Man. Could you imagine like imagine being that Guy's family member? You know and not saying I'm not I'm not I'm not trying to. You know, lighten up the mood of what happened. to George Floyd at all, but I'm just saying like. Man. That's a rough. That's a rough spot to be in. People are probably all pump that he's a cop and he's only been there for short period of time and. He didn't have the strength to you. Know literally rip the guy off like he didn't he? Didn't you know? Take about far whatever but. There's there's just so many things that have happened. You know in in in the in the wake of this that. What, I what I think is also good. Is that like you see a lot of irrational responses to things I say you guys a video. I think of somebody flipping out because somebody was getting graffiti off of a federal building. And you know they're. They're like Oh you don't think black lives matter and they're like yelling back and forth at each other I mean I think it's just like look. Somebody made a message. They put a message on a building. Somebody? Else's just recognize that I. Like Hey, let's let's Kinda clean up our city. Let's clean up our town and they're trying to remove some of this shit to get the city back to where it where it was before. And I think sometimes it's it's fairly easy for some of us to see. See some of the reactions and see some of the things are going on and say. You know there's just a lot of feelings behind that. You know people need to figure out a way to at the best they can. Because like when there's the video that I sent, you guys was like a like yelling out of a car. To. These kids that are are trying to get the graffiti off this building. And that's not going to I mean and as soon as the car pulled away, they just. Continued on with what they were doing. But without like you know really communicating like rather than just like filming it and being all mad. They. sculpt them and say hey I have a question for you like. Why are you getting rid of this graffiti? I think this graffiti should stay here for a couple for a while. Because what you know because of what happened in like just some explanation. Explain yourself a little bit, but. This is irrational thoughts and the fighting and the stuff that's going on I. Don't think that's going to help I'm glad you brought the point about the other officers. We had one of our buddies listener. The show had commented. Same that we need to be focusing on everyone else that just sat and watched I think he was talking about like the girl that filmed and the just the bystanders at were watching and didn't do anything. And just like. The other police officers didn't have the strength to pull this guy off meaning. You know they'd like the Asian Cobb. Just Kinda was like pillock so passive like he looked like he probably I mean I don't know. It just looked like. He knew that it was wrong, but he had no idea how to do it. Like so to ask the by standards, that's a really tall order like I. Get it, I understand. I kind of agree but. Not only would they be facing jail time, they could be facing fines and if they get you know Like a felony, then their life is essentially over and on top of that. They're watching somebody else. Get killed and you're you want somebody to jump in and help that like there's no way like if somebody. I knew I'd be like. No, you need to get the fuck out of there. Because like I don't want you to be the next one you know, it's like this. The the nine eleven stuff with exactly how the the people taken over the plane It's easy to talk tough afterwards. I'd kick that guy's ass. Man You don't have any idea how scared. The people on the plane must ban and and. If guys, stand there with a machine gun like I I would love to think that I'm GONNA run up to him and tackle them and save everybody on the plane, but. Would if I'm with my kids and my wife, I might be like well if we just listen to what the guy says and it will probably be fine when they're watching. You know what happened to George Floyd. I mean they don't really have the knowledge to know these actually being choked out. They don't really know I mean. They are seeing him in a and. I would totally disagree with that statement. I. I thought that the people watching I actually thought the main guy who's communicating with. The police officers did an amazing job. Like that guy? That guy's a stud because. The shore of him, physically pulling off the officer and getting shot himself. I thought that he did amazing job of communicating without going to crazy like he somehow kept his cool, he was like Bro. He's like just let him up. He's like look at him like he's you know he's he's. The life is being drained out of a man. He's telling him over and over again, so I don't I. Don't think the guy again a short of him grabbing the officer, which you can't even really like I mean just pulling your arm away from an officer. In some cases like officer grabs your arm, which they usually are gonNA. Grab it pretty firmly. Just pulling her arm away can be considered resisting arrest. Your imagine what they would do to somebody who tries to pull somebody off of a suspect you know. That's not going to be. That's not going to be taken very lightly. Yeah! Missouri getting like like just real quick as officer was getting approached, he pulled out some spray like thousand of video. They were like Kana creeping. You know what I mean like. How like how jumping? That guy is i. mean just think critically about it. There's this officer told. Push everybody away. We'll everybody's supposed to somehow just kinda gang up on a bunch of officers who have guns tasers spray. That's GONNA work out. Really well, in. Like four cop cars around, too, so there's four guys. They're there, but I think there's other cops erling around as well. Yeah, I just wanted to bring that up to you know. Put put down that guy or anything because he is a listener of the show. We appreciate them, but it's because like I did see. The the girl that filmed the whole video you know she was. She's been getting tons of shit for what she did for not doing something extra. It's like men I. What could you do like you know? You would be there with George Floyd to the most important thing that they could do. They have a piece of American history that's. Important to the movement of this country forever. Yeah, what more could you do that? I mean that's amazing. You know like and and also to again like you know If they if they did prevent them, you know then none of this gets found out. You know and and we don't start investigating police departments more. We don't start investigating i. mean it seems like what's going on in Minneapolis like. The see like they have a lot are a lot of cases of this all over the country you know, but it seemed like in Minneapolis in particular they have. They had a lot of things to examine and look into and none of that would have got none of that. What happened? You know so? Tough to say, but it's your answer general. Think what that meant to be alive right now, but at the end of the day you see everything that's happening there, negatives and positives, but overall a lot of things being brought to light I, think I think in almost all the other cases that have ever happened. People can, people can draw up a crazy amount of excuses for all of them. They can say what was that guy. Do and you know in the alley you know? in the middle of the night. You know as he did you know they can? They can drum up all these weird bullshit reasons on on wjr. Someone's life was taken. And how it could have potentially pose a threat to the police and I think. There's two. There's two sides to most arguments. You know But in this case the. Is this like so it's so clear. Ban So Yeah I. Mean. It's it's. It's impossible to say. that. Maybe we needed it, but. Maybe we needed Yes, the video of his daughter. You know she's on. Steven Jack I can't remember his first name. She's on his shoulders and he has her up. And she's like my dad's GonNa Change The world where my daddy's change in the world. Man, I mean you know the sad part? Though is like her being so young she. She still that that it probably hasn't hit her just yet. Like what scout happens her debt. The young kid. You know you're young kid. So that that's sad. When I saw that it was, it was, it was great. It was shed very emotional for sure. Entered our talked about you heard about the drew greasing mark. Yet I don't know his direct quote, but he was basically he was talking about capture neck right? Yeah, yeah, he's talking about capture. Nick and He's saying how like you know. He doesn't necessarily support. The kneeling because disrespects the American flag. It's about how his forefathers like no fought in World War Two, and then Laura Ingram. You know what you remember that. For No. Laura Ingram. She's the one that said some shit about Lebron or something right? Lebron Kevin Durant. Yeah. Shut up. In dribble yeah. With him. He's like Oh she's. He's entitled to have an opinion. He's A. He's an American. He can have his own. Sudden. Oh God it funny. Would those videos side by side to response to that? Her spots the Lebron Asia sleightholme. You went. On Lebron those like nobody voted for you Lebron. Those those things are important have happened because they're. They're so obvious. You know it. It's important that like. Stuff like that happens. Important people get called out on it and it's very clear. It's like wow, okay. We know exactly you know. We know exactly where you stand now you know The in regards to drew brees like I would like to point out a couple of things I am patriotic. I am for you. Know I'm I'm for I'm for everybody you know like whether you're police, officer or regardless of your color or ethnicity. You know I I love our military people I'm friends with a lot of police officers But something to think about something to consider is that. The the American flag. I understand. How it is interpreted as meaning a lot to certain people maybe because of you know the things they've done for the country, but something that consider something to think about, and even with capture nick situation I I think it got like misconstrued blown out of proportion. In a direction, and here's why I think that way. The American flag is literally a piece of cloth that we put stuff on. To represent America, it's it's, but it's, but it's one hundred percent made up. Like, we don't need flag. What we need is each other we don't. We don't need. We don't need a symbolic thing. You Know I. It's supposed to what is supposed to do. It's supposed to represent. All of us is what it's supposed to do. And we're all supposed to be like four each other with each other, but when somebody I'm not saying that it's cool to disrespect the flag in any way. But when somebody is is making a statement during like an anthem, they may be haven't figured out a different way or better way are they thought that was the best way? I personally don't think and somebody else can have their own opinion on this I personally don't think there's any reason to be offended at all. I don't Fucking Care with Colin Kaepernick does now. He does that and I say why does he do that? And then I hear why he does that and I can then I can make a decision about what he's doing and say. I don't really agree with that or no oh. Shit. Oh. Talking police brutality. Yeah, he's he's definitely. He definitely has as a point. See it pop up on the news. You know often her or whatever your take is on it, but. You know. I people get so wound up over these. Concepts are over these things. and. I think it's important. I understand that people love American history and they. Are I. Love the United States as well. But think about how irrational it is, you know like let's let's say. That, Andrew and I are at a ball game. And I noticed that Andrew. Take off his hat during the national anthem. How completely irrational is it for me to turn around and punch him in the face? And Blake you asshole now. There's some people actually believe that I would be in the right for doing that. which is ludicrous that it's? It's an irrational thought, process and also. At part of having freedom is the fact that you can wear your hat during the national, anthem Mike. That's part of it. You can refute what's going on. You don't always have to be in favor of what's going on. I. Mean I think. I man. They get they get such irrational thought process going on it is is it's GonNa? Be a difficult thing to unwind but I hope you know moving forward. I hope I hope that people can can really learn to. Control away. They think about the thoughts that are popping in their head. That's very well, said yeah and. You know one one thing I do WanNa. Clarify here to is. Is this because you're? You're still saying I think This this week on on Instagram, people have been doing a good job explaining when individuals are saying black lives matter. They're not saying that all lives don't matter. Cake is really you still see people saying no all lives matter. Like. The reason why? People are putting this forward. Black lives matters be as like black people in the black media don't feel like their lives are much right now. In the eyes of you know police in just the like totally within the nation Beta feel like their lives are mattering much right now. You know so. It's not saying we everyone knows that all lives matter. We all understand that just right now. Black lives don't seem to matter as much. So that's that's all that is so pleased. When when you see your friends holding posters, use your friends posting. Things about that. Understand that they're not saying that your life doesn't matter as a whatever other race he may be saying that. So it's, it's similar to if there's funding. To help ethnicity get into a college. You. Know I it's. There there's not there's not a problem with other ethnicities getting into college a lot of time so. The fact that there's A College Fund towards for African Americans it's. Fulfilling an issue that is per perhaps problematic in that particular for that particular ethnicity. And you know people tend to get all bent out of shape about all these different things, but it's like well. There's no there's no reason for us to have you know a a a funding system for places where there's not a problem, there's no reason to focus in and hone in on places where there's not not an issue. We want to hone in and focus in on where there is an issue where there's an issue. Hopefully we can assist. Hopefully we can help it, and hopefully we can draw even just draw attention to it in this case. People are that whole thing is just? that. That's what we're dealing with at the moment. Is You know we see it in our own stuff with nutrition? And we see it you know and if I. IF I say hey man I don't. I don't count calories you know then they're like Oh. Man, you know. He's only this one way or or someone eats meat and they. All vegans are yeah. It's like it's kind of this all or nothing mentality across the board and it doesn't have to be the case. At the at the end of that thirteenth documentary. It it. It made me feel extremely guilty. At the very very end I i. don't know anyone's name, but the guy says you know people say Oh, if I was around during slavery, I would have stood up and did something because that's so wrong like fast forward to today, and it's just as bad and people are still living with it. I've felt terrible because shipment i. don't really know what to do, and then you know you see people. Putting up posts i. don't know the exact quote, but it's something like silence. Just helps the oppressor or something like that Would you guys take on something like that like I I want I want change I. WanNa help I think during this podcast in doing stuff with C., T. and these guests that we have coming up is. Part of the solution. But like somebody else. That just doesn't have an outlet like what I mean I'm just basically asking like. How do we maybe not feel so guilty? And how can we help? Yeah I, think I think insieme will have something great to say about this, but I think Andrew I think. You know what I've mentioned to you in the past is just like you improving yourself as like one of the best things you can do. Because you at twenty one. Would be able to help a lot less people than what you can do now with the strides that you made in your diet with the strategy. You made in your relationship with his strides. You made in your career. The strides you made in your relationship with your daughter I mean, it's just the list goes on, and on a of of like valuable assets that you're adding to society, and you're open, minded and you're You're gaining more knowledge all the time, so I think. Extrapolating, that out, and just kind of putting out to everybody else. Same thing may make yourself better. Keep figuring out a way to make yourself better because. The better that you can become the easier. It's going to be for you to assist and help other people when they need it. And I don't think. I don't think there's any reason for anybody. Really have guilt and less. In unless they're starting to recognize while okay I've done I've done a bunch of shit wrong. I really need to make a lot of changes, but even then it's like well. You don't have to sit around and feel guilty about exhaust like it'd be helpful. It's time to make some time to make some changes I. Think I think all ethnicities across the board are probably recognizing yeah. Man I can do can do a lot better job of what I'm doing now with my with the way that I'm thinking about society with the way that I. Think about other people and I I am a big believer in especially with what were afforded in this country like man, just do the Bassey can to continually and constantly improve yourself. Try to be open, minded and just the same old shit. That's been going on forever like you don't even have to necessarily be extraordinary, but it's don't be Dick. You know just simply just don't be you know. Educate yourself on topics especially when they start to to pop up in your community or or in society. But. That's a simple rule. Don't be a dick kind. Other people yeah. I think mark mentioned it really well. I think also like the the biggest things that every individual can do an mark. You did this with your family watch. Thirteenth with your kits. Right you so you you you. You brought an awareness to something that may be not all of them were aware about and that in and of it's self like changes a lot of how they think about certain things so. You know. With your immediate family may be watching something like that or learning more about something like that. Having conversations with other family members there are also organizations that people can donate to like the black lives matter movement delays all of that stuff, but I honestly think that the I think that even bigger than that is educating yourself like you did with your family i. mean it's not like. I, I think people probably don't think that that's that big of a deal, but I think that's a very a very very important thing to do is then that battle? Have you thinking more understanding? osas actually wrong, and this is right. I think that's more powerful than just donating some money to more Going about doing things the same way you always have been you know so I think that's honestly the biggest thing that anybody everybody can do in this situation is just to learn more about the things that are actually going on. Why certain people why people are out there protesting. A lot of people probably like Oh, there's no problem really, but there is you WANNA learn why they're doing it. One other thing is like. I don't think anybody needs to be. Anybody needs to feel guilty. I mentioned this our last podcast. I want to mention again. The as this is something that I disagree with a few people on a There's quite a few people that disagree with me on this point, but. Thing you know. You've seen white silence is violence, or whatever, right because people aren't posting or whatever on under social media. Again I. Fully, don't agree with that I don't agree that somebody should post about something until they feel ready until they feel like okay I wanNa Post my opinion on this I. Want to post about what's going on or like, even if they wanNA bring more awareness to it than that should be something that you feel drawn to do that shouldn't be something you do because everybody else is doing it. It in everybody. Else's telling you that you have to do it I. don't agree with that I. don't agree that we should be forcing people to do something that they're not necessarily ready to do. Bring a lot of attention to it, which is amazing? People are educating themselves about it, which is amazing Chichi Post about it? Okay? Cool! That's fine, but if you don't think that anybody should feel guilty. For not posting up on social media. Do you guys agree with me on that or disagree on the other. yeah I know I agree and. You hear a lot of talk about white privilege and stuff, and whenever anybody's asked me about my story, you know to be successful and make money or whatever it might be I i. always share my full story. You know I always okay, say okay well. You, know here we go. I gotTA. Start out by saying you know I I grew up upper middle class. I had a family that loves me and cares about me. My not not just my parents. You know my brothers, my cousins, my uncles, my my aunts. My I mean just. Grandparents like like everyone was involved like I have a huge family. and. Everything you did was a big deal. You know so I couldn't have if I'm guilty of anything. I've had too much like love. You know too much because. I didn't know you know how to do anything for myself. Until last week pretty much. I didn't know how to do anything for myself. You know for a really really long time. Because there was always relative there to assist in to help out, but still had to figure out my own life for myself. You know and I think. Regardless of where you came from, and regardless of of what happened to you, you know I also had I had a fortune of. You know seeing my dad do really well with his with with work. but I also saw him get released from his job. And I saw make like some massive changes. We lived in a pretty pretty big house, lived in a pretty big neighborhood, and we ended up right back where my parents started which was in a trailer park. You know and so I I saw I saw the ups and downs, but I also saw that my parents were willing to sacrifice everything for the sake of us. Being the best getting the best education, we possibly could and just just trying to put everything they could into their into their children, and so for me. You know I, but I don't feel guilty about any of that like I. Just happen to be fortunate. Happen to be lucky. If someone else wants to call it privilege than I. You know I I. AM privilege I have. I've awesome parents. I'm privileged to say that I have you know I grew up in a family with a lot of love. I'm privileged that I didn't and I'm thankful more so than anything else. Grateful that I didn't you know, grow up in a in a city where there's a lot of violence and a lot of drugs and I mean there was those things not too far from from me, but I didn't. I didn't live in those particular neighborhoods. And I'm thankful and grateful for that, so yes, I did I you know if we were talking about like a starting position of like where I was in society I was like you know in in the and didn't have a lot of other problems weighing me down I didn't have You know government or anything raining over me to like to hold me down at all. I was kind of free to kind of just start and just go. And but I recognize that I understand that and I've always I've you know my? My Dad is a financial consultant for people and stuff and he's. taught me about these things and told me about these things and I am aware you know I'm I'm I have awareness of it and I think that's all you can do i. don't think there's a reason for you to feel bad about it. I think there's there is a there is a reason to be aware of it. And to you know maybe some maybe thoughtful on. Is there anything that you can personally do about it? like the the documentary thirteenth, and then a couple of the videos that we've been passing around to each other. What so I've been aware of everything that you those videos talk about, but I didn't understand how and why. It works like when I'd be having like a an argument with somebody saying no like. It it is harder for somebody in these red squares to get a loan to move out of the ghetto like no, no, no anybody can do it. And I, but I didn't have the knowledge. You know the AMMO to be like. No, no, no, this actually did happen all the way up till like ninety s that they kept people out of certain parts of the neighborhood like I. Now have that and so like. I feel good the next time I go into one of these arguments to be like no bitch like this is actually what happened and why and how and So that part I. Am you know thankful that I am learning more stuff like that? Do. I wish it could have come naturally, not because of what's happening of course but. Some, Shit's going to change, and it's just unfortunate that someone had to die in order to make all this change happen. I also WANNA. I WANNA point out that the movie thirteenth you know I. got a lot of flack for people like it's so one sided. It's like. Whoa what am I going to watch a movie about? You know am I going to you know try to. Watch a movie that doesn't call into question. A lot of these problems, a lot of these issues I I recognize that it was kind of one side of the story. and there was parts of the film that I didn't care for I didn't like at the end how they and I didn't like at the end how they utilize Donald. Trump's voice and they and they did they used a voiceover of voice, and they showed this. You know stuff that happened a long time ago. That was powerful though. Is, he was. It was cinematic as hell. Great they had great job of making a lot of emotions, and it makes you think shit, and at Holy Shit. I hope that we're we're heading I. Hope my you know, and but at the same time like you said. Andrew, it makes you feel you know it makes it makes feel guilty, but. I'm not going to watch a movie. That is just a a hundred percent to all. You know favoring all of my own personal. Thoughts or I want stuff where I'm like. What really crap like is that? Really that way and I want be able to look into it further and find out one way or the other you know. Was It really this way it is it things really go down this way I thought that. I thought that movie was I really liked the movie a lot and there's definitely parts that I personally didn't agree with, but. it opened my eyes a lot of different things I never seen it before, and it's been out since I think like two thousand sixteen, but mopped up on on the net flicks. Don't one thing I want to mention though is. Andrew, you mentioned like feeling guilty. I don't think anybody should feel guilty for whatever level of. Privilege that they have. As long as you're not an individual, who is like you hate other races whether they're Asian Mexican, black, and whatever you, you've literally done things to those individuals. There's no reason you should ever feel guilty for any place you started in life whether you're a cabals born into a trust fund in millions of dollars. Don't feel guilty about it. Move forward and do stuff with that. Side this whole you know. People call it white guilt I. Don't think unless you're actually an individual who has done things to try and oppress other individuals right? You shouldn't feel guilty of where you're starting, or or if you're ahead the whole, the whole idea of the white privilege thing or a privilege in general is understanding that you do have some I have some privilege shit, I mean my mom. She came here from Nigeria to America she got a job as an engineer right? Yeah, she did have to take care of two kids, but I mean. We didn't like have to struggle for food at CETERA. Privilege. Okay, that's. But like you mentioned Andrew the idea of red lining when when I. When I've had conversations with individuals about this right and they're saying Oh. Why can't these people just pick themselves up by their bootstraps and? Get their education. You see a lot of black successful people. Well, you got understand like you know you mention certain. Certain communities have literally been blocked off from good education. You know there are some people that are able to come out of that education. Good food. Good anything all my like so there are a few people who will be able to beat the massive odds that are against them and come out of those communities to be successful, but a fast majority of them. All the cards stacked against them you need to. Understand that that's actually factual. It doesn't take away from anything. You've done it as an individual, not blaming you for anything, but it's just understanding the way certain things are set up, so you don't think that Oh. They're just not trying hard enough for. They're just not working hard enough for or while they shouldn't be going into crime. Think about where they are, and the obviously is that they have at when certain opportunities come up to them to make money. You don't think they're gonNA instead of having no success in school. They're they're gonNA turn and try to do something else that to help them make more money. The cards are already stacked against you and. You just don't have that much parental guidance. You know that that's gotta be tough like and maybe like. Maybe your mom or someone still cares about you, but a lot of times. These people are growing up These people want to say that I'm talking specifically about African. American African Americans a lot of them grow up in a in a single family household. I think it's I I could be Rodham himself was used. To say it's like seventy seventy percent or something along those lines and again. That's not the point out that that's the only problem, but if you're living in the intercity. And that happens to you and your mom has to work multiple jobs will now. You don't have any guidance at all because you don't have. You know, sometimes you know. Maybe they can have another relatively with them or something like that, but it just puts you in a really really tough spot, and eventually the streets are probably GonNa win eventually. Some something along the lines is going to be you know more enticing than. Just trying to go to the school that you go to where there's a lot of violence, maybe a lot of other people that go to the school. Maybe a lot of their kids go to school. Don't care that much about their education. It's not cool to do any of that. Maybe you mess around play a sport, or maybe you're not good enough to you know. Make a living at it and. It's kind of end up and up. Worry end up. Yeah, and it's a whole nother conversation for a whole `nother podcast, but like the also like the the incentives to have a a broken up family are very present as well. You can get paid a little bit more from the government. If you're a single mother, and it just so like arguments like whoa. It's not you know anyone's fault that you know. The Dad walked out the MOM. Push them out whatever it's like well. They get a little incentive when that happens. In some crazy stat where like? Children of doesn't matter what if ethnic background like so like a child that up with a mom and dad, white white parents would or black parents like they actually like. The statistics show like both kids can be just as successful, but when one parent is gone, it's like very obvious like how much their success rate drops, and it just so happens to happen more in the black community more than you know. Sorry, not more than just in these red line areas that we were talking about. It happens a lot more because the incentives are there just look up fatherhood dot org if you WanNa, see the statistics as far. This this kid's. Not just you know. The whole population, but also by necessity just kids without fathers like there's. It's tough if it's it's rough, statistically for those groups, not that they don't ever move forward, but it's rougher. Those groups and you see that it's very prevalent. In black communities and there's a lot of reasons for that. It's not just because the father leaves because people are going to be like while those father should leave, there's a lot of reasons that kind of stuff happens. Thirteenth goes into what event the prison systems a there's. There's a lot of stuff then it's. So again going back to it do not feel guilty. If you feel privileged in certain ways, no one's saying, but that's a bad thing that anybody has privileged understand where other communities are coming from where they're starting, point is. An understanding of and yeah. My feelings came from like not doing enough. Maybe you know that's kind of it's. Definitely very privileged, but it came as my point is i. think you are doing a lot I think that if you if you are. If you're trying to make yourself better, but not at the expense of like hurting other people like you're not step on a bunch of toes, the to to make it ahead, and and you're like I know you. You know I. I know that you're not like that so I think that. in sound selfish, but advancing yourself I think is the most powerful thing you can do. Like even for example if you don't take care of yourself from a physical standpoint and you have diabetes guest who has to pay for? All, three of us have to pay for that. You know through through insurance through taxes and through like it costs, it costs a lot of money. It takes up a Lotta time it it. It Fox a lot of things out basically, so the more that you can take care of yourself. Better better off we all are. Looks like we're running out of time though we gotta get Outta here, fellas. Oh, my again. I just want to Finish up by saying. we didn't. We didn't get to talk about fat loss or anything like that, but we'll. We'll get that in future show I. Know as I mentioned that the beginning You know if anybody any issues. Anybody had the stuff that we say We're open you to criticism. You know if you if you have if you WANNA point us in a direction of of where we get our education on where we can learn more, you know Please point us in directions because now. We're GONNA be talking about this nonstop every. Every single day forever, but it is something that's that's on our minds, and we wanted to talk about it openly, and none of us are experts when it comes to politics were just people that happen to love lifting weights, and we love other people, and we want to see like good things happen in this world, not shitty things and so. You know if you WANNA, point us in the right direction towards some stats, or if you heard something that was way off from us. Please don't flip out and please don't be offended just just. Say Hey You Might WanNa. Check this out because some of the stuff you're saying. It's a little off I'll point you guys in a direction. I think some of the stuff is never it never a good idea just to go with just one source. is also that. In the beginning, but Thomas Soul is somebody that I found a lot of great information from. You might want to look him up. On you can look them up on like youtube or he has. He's written a lot of books and stuff like that as well. Yeah and then coming up here on this podcast we're going to have a bunch of guests coming up. We'll have Daryl Davis on the podcast again, so we can ask him. A little bit more about this particular situation, the riots looting, the protesting the whole nine yards. Thank you everybody for checking out today's episode For more information on perfect. Please check out the Youtube facebook and I tuned show notes down down nearly a little description box there Please fall the PODCAST at Mark Wells Power Project on Instagram at Amby Power Project on twitter. were on facebook linked in again. You were over the damn place My instagram is at I am Andruzzi Encima. If people want to reach out to you, how can they do so and seem in Yangon? INSTAGRAM and to Balance Union on TIKTOK and twitter mark. I'm at Mark's SMELLY. Bell thanks for listening today. Strength is never a weakness. This never strength catch y'all later. Power Project thank you for checking today's episode. We sincerely appreciate it. We also sincerely appreciate everybody that's in writing and ruin the podcast on itunes. It really does help the show, so if you guys can please stop by Itunes and give us a rating and review right now. We want to be the biggest of shout outs to Juju fe. Juju says respect quote, love the work you fellas have done your inspiring and overall great people. People love the openness. You have with everything I. Don't do social media stuff, but this pod is enough me educational motivating and the truth love it quick question for anybody who doesn't have instant or twitter. How can we connect with you if I if you ever come to Cape God, give me a shout God. Bless and keep up the good work. We appreciate you. We appreciate you more juju sincerely. Thank you so much man that. That's just like the best compliment that anybody can really give us. Is dropping by Itunes to let them know that you give them about the show in a real quick just to answer your question, we have something really big were that we're working on? To let people know to notify people when we do live streams and stuff, it'll be as far as I understand, it will be as simple as a text message so apologies that we don't have it up and running right now, but soon we will have it, and we will definitely be talking about it all over the place on the podcast in everywhere. Everywhere. We post stuff, so please be on the lookout for that, but thank you again. We sincerely appreciate that if you listen right now. If you'd like to hear your name on air, please itunes right now. Drop us a rating and review, and you could hear your name on air. Dislike our friend. Juju Fay will catch you guys on the next one piece.

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Against the Rules Presents: A Slight Change of Plans

Against the Rules with Michael Lewis

42:07 min | 4 months ago

Against the Rules Presents: A Slight Change of Plans

"Pushkin ever drive in evi. You'd know because once you feel the thrill of electric there's no going back and the next generation of vs by general motors are an absolute joy to drive. Imagine an ev. They can go from zero to sixty in an estimated three seconds letting you hug corners for tighter ride and don't even get a started on available towing capacity. Yeah towing in evi. And what's that acquired driving experience. It's about time you listen to your favorite podcast. The way we intended so get ready to charge up and feel the thrill of the road. It's all made possible. By a revolutionary new platform from gm built for power flexibility and range ensuring. You keep the good times going. Isn't it time for everyone to feel good about driving a vehicle. They love discover the thrill that awaits at gm dot com. Everybody what if there was a superhero amazing power to make hiring faster smarter and easier. Think of ziprecruiter like that minus the tights. And right now you can try ziprecruiter for free. Only at the special place ziprecruiter dot com slash rules. What sort of hiring superpowers to ziprecruiter have well instead of fighting crime. Like other superheroes ziprecruiter fights time by helping you find qualified candidates fast. I when you post your job. Ziprecruiter sends it out over one hundred top job sites with one. Click talk about being in many places. At once then ziprecruiter's matching technology scours thousands of resumes to identify people with the right skills and experience for your job. An actively invites them to apply. No wonder four out of five employers. Who post on ziprecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Ready to conquer hiring. Make sure you go to this. Special hiring superhero headquarters website ziprecruiter dot com slash rules. Let ziprecruiter save the day. Just go to ziprecruiter dot com slash rules against the rules. Listeners cited to share. That will return in the fall for brand new season while. We're hard at work on new episodes today. Bringing you a special interview with. Dr mayer shocker. My as a friend of mine who studied cognitive science at yale worked on behavioral science in the obama white house and now leads behavioral economics at google on her new podcast. A slight change of plans. My ask the question. What exactly happens when we find ourselves at the brink of change. She hosts revealing conversations with people who've lived through extraordinary changes like tiffany haddish. Hillary clinton casey must braves and little known guests to like a young cancer researcher. In the throes of the stage for diagnosis. I sat down with my to learn more about her own life change. What inspired her. To make a podcast. What listeners can expect this season. And more i am recording and michael before we start talking about the podcast. I did want to share. I went down memory lane a little bit around our friendship. Because we've been friends for like five six years. So i went back into the g mail chambers and i found something very fun from two thousand fifteen. This is after My husband jimmy. And i hung out with you at villers birthday party. Okay so we felt like a few days together so i sent you the following email dearest. Michael jimmy lee and i would like to sign up to be your friend a work with your agent to complete the relevant paperwork. Best mayan jimmy. So first of all clearly. I don't know how to play hard to get but thankfully you didn't really enjoy the chase. 'cause you're back right away dear maya. Your application has been reviewed by a committee. All boxes seem to be checked. We are pleased to inform you of your acceptance. My man i have a feeling we. We share these character traits. I have a feeling we both assumed that other people would want to be friends with us and so we don't actually are art very shy about it when i met you. There was no. You had no media ambition you. You're an advisor to obama. How did you get interested in being a podcast her so during quarantine. I was feeling really overwhelmed by all the changes that were happening. Around me I think everybody was feeling really overwhelmed by the change. Happening around them and I think i realized because i'm a cognitive scientist. So i was thinking about this from the perspective of psychology right which is like how do we interact with this change thing that just happens in our lives whether we like it or not and you know maybe the specifics of what twenty twenty through our way is unprecedented. But our human ability to navigate. Change is not and so maybe if we heard stories from people who have experienced extraordinary changes in their lives. We could learn something interesting right. There's no manual out there on how to navigate big life changes where we don't know what that process is supposed to look like. There's no science textbook on this And so i was like. Let's dig up the most fascinating change stories changes of all kinds right and then let's see what we can learn. Let's let's see we can change our own minds about change so you started with the subject rather than the ambition. you didn't. Oh i wanna be a podcast unless we should do it about definitely not That's just not the direction that works for my brain. I need to have a really fascinating thing to say. That feels interesting to me. it can't be the reverse. i really I love podcasts. I love the audio medium. It's super immersive way more than tv So i'm a huge fan of podcasts. But i just never imagined myself having a show of my own what. What were your favorite podcasts. While i'm a big bachelor fan as you know. So i absolutely subscribe to the main bachelor fan podcasts. Yup i like interview shows I listen of course to like lawry's santa's happiness lab actually let me just pull up my podcast feed right now and tell you what's on there. Yeah i mean. I i got the classic ones like The daily got against the rules but that seems shameless right now nor does revisionist history still processing hidden brain. How oh. I love how i built this. I actually part of me when i was thinking about this. Podcast was like. Oh how i built this talks about these elaborate journeys of humans who built incredible things and i was like i kinda wanna version of like how i built this life And so now as part of the inspiration which was people are going through all these changes. And how do they maneuver. How did they find creative solutions along the way. And how do they navigate. Have you always been interested in change. This is kinda come up you know. I studied change right. So i said how and why people change said how and why people make decisions how they developed their attitudes and beliefs about the world But i never elevated changed to an important concept. Until i was thinking about this podcast if felt in two thousand twenty like a really big deal to think about And i think against the backdrop of such a broken political society if it's especially important to figure out how in why we change in in potentially good ways Because we are seeing so many fractures than your your observation that this is a moment to investigate the phenomenon because of covid is a really good one and it's it with to me. It's interesting because you can see what's how you can see now as as we start to come out of it by fits and starts but but a lot of people they had to change and it's hard for them all over again because they have to change that they've got they've adapted to some new kind of way going through the world and and they feel kind of hesitancy about going back to the old ways so people very different attitudes towards it. It's not just one thing for everybody right right and it's not one thing for everyone over the course of their lights right right. I mean that's one thing we're finding out. is you know. Huge childhood trauma with change doesn't necessarily mean that you have an aversion two later on right and we see some of that unfolded some of the stories right so give me an example of that give. An example of someone who's attitude towards change has changed. Yeah so one person interviews tiffany haddish. She's a incredible comedian. She just one Best comedy album at the grammys this year. Making her the first black woman to win this award since the early eighties when whoopi goldberg one. It And she had deeply traumatic childhood when she was eight. Her mom had a really terrible car. Accident That left her with severe brain damage and made her extremely violent and very verbally abusive. And so tiffany's having to navigate this new world where this person that she loved most in the world is now actively tormenting her and so. It's it's a profound change in her life and so what's fascinating about. Tiffany's story is that she recognized early on as a kid that she had this talent and that was to make people laugh but rather than treating it as recreational hobby right the thing that she just did you know with her friends and whatnot. She re purposed it into a survival tool and so she uses this over the course of her life when she's a kid. She tries to make her mom laugh even just for a moment to distract her from getting hit. Does it work and it's working yet. She goes to school. Doesn't know how to read. She charms her classmates into letting her copy their homework. Laugh and being the class clown and so. She's so traumatized by change early in her life but then slowly realizes that she's identified that she has the superpower along the way And so now there's an element of her that embraces change. She realizes that she's got this amazing weapon that she can use every turn. It's actually it's just a great way to get people's lives. I mean getting your laugh so you start your pockets right by telling everybody that you once we're going to be a musician in that didn't work out because you had this horrible injury but back then you weren't we you thinking like about. You weren't thinking about change. That age is cons concerts an abstract concept. You just had to go about your life and do something different. Yeah i don't think any kid is like oh and now i'm confronting change. Maybe the philosophers among us for doing that. But i certainly wasn't. I was like this sucks. That's what i was thinking. If i if i met the The musician you way back when when your kid. Now i was interviewing you. Would you be recognizable to me. You you basically the same character but just with the violent in your hands I think i was really the same so when we look back at like childhood videos. It's a little bit unnerving how similar i was back. Then i think some of the traits i preserved or like getting incredibly excited about things very passionate about things. I telling my production team that i had to do months of voice therapy over the past few years because my doctor diagnosed me is getting so excited. When i talk i forget to breathe. This is apparently a medical diagnosis five now had to retrain myself to remember to breathe. I'm so i think that. Like prince. With certainly there. When i was a kid but i think i was me the one thing that i had in childhood that i have not retained is just an absolute singular focus on a goal. I mean i was so dedicated. Like when i think back to being nine ten eleven going into a room and practicing for five hours. I just can't my brain can't comprehend today having that kind of discipline i i. Don't i it. I stopped cultivating that scale. If you could go back learning what you've learned so far or you know just taking what you've learned as a grownup including all your behavioral science stuff if you go back and consult the young you after you get your told that you're never gonna play the violin again. Yeah is there anything you would have told the young you. Yeah i would have said. Stop making long-term plans I was an absolute. I still am. I'm a type a. Or whatever that i was obsessed with plan making. I wanted to know what my life is going to be in two years and four years and ten years that persisted through college and grad school and at every point. I'm like i just. I just need to know what comes next. So that an trade survive that trauma zing lost this one but like shirley i can control everything out. You don't always you don't learn the valuable lesson that your control is an illusion until i think you had a few more experiences with change the next season or my podcast is about experts. And we're still figuring it out but there's a fair chance that they'll be a show about experts whose expertise is no longer of use valued at any way that they go from being. You know prized or at least used to being completely pointless. What did we tell them. Now you're abutting expert on how to endure these sort of changes. What do you do yeah. it's a good question. I mean when you first brought expertise. I was like wow. That's super relevant in my life. Because i had this expertise. I had been building for over ten years and then overnight it became useless. Didn't matter at all that. I had this dexterity. I could play all these pieces. I suddenly couldn't play the violin anymore. I mean one thing. I'm learning actually there. I had this really interesting interview with a young guy around my age. He's a cancer researcher. His name is scott he. He's a cancer research but he's also total health nuts like the last ten years. He's been vegan. He's been obsessively trying to optimize his lifespan. Okay intermittent fasting high intensity interval training. You name it. He's done it okay. Pours turmeric on his food. Okay turmeric should not be on food. And i'm indian so turmeric is like one of my spices. That's not how you engage a turmeric but anyway. She said that his worst nightmare was eventually becoming deeply ill and last year in the middle crow virus. He gets a stage. Four cancer diagnosis. That overnight leads to have to amputate his right leg. he's had three or four surgeries since then including removing vertebrae. Having you do six rounds of chemotherapy moving to md anderson for treatments. I mean it's it's a gut wrenching story. And it's it's it's particularly wrenching bets against the backdrop of someone who spent his entire life trying to avoid this outcome right. This guy's worst fear comes true and what he was marveling about is the fact that today. The day that i was doing the interview he more or less felt as happy as he had before the diagnosis really which was stunning to me. Because the happiness research does show that we are massively resilient in the face of adversity and set back and then when you really good things happen. We don't stay super happy for a long time at all. We immediately go back down to original set points. So i was familiar with this research but i always call bullshit on it. I was like. I told scott this i was like. I'm so familiar with this research. But i was always like okay. I get all of you or respond in that way. But i assure you that if i went through experienced no way in hell i'm rebounding but to hear someone who could say to me. My i was in your shoes. I'm exactly the same. Way was really heartening i would end. He said if. I had known the way that i would psychologically respond to this event. I wouldn't have spent so much time being so fearful of it in the first place. I think there is a lesson there for total that episode. You're about to do which is like there are always unexpected. Almost i would call like side effects that happen with change right things that we can't predict so having decided to do the podcast on the subject. Yeah are you finding the subject exhausting itself or do you think that it's kind of endless. How long can this go on for. Do you think how many permutations on this theme are there. Yeah i was definitely worried. When i was conceiving the idea like is this just a season you know and my guests have proven me wrong which i think is the best way to discover that there is more potential in something. It's not from doing your own. Research is for having thoughts middle than i. It's from your interview subjects teaching you that there are all these facets of change that you wouldn't even predict so my favorite kind of interview is when i go in thinking. I know what a person's changed story is what what moment really changed that and the reaction they had and they completely prove me wrong and show me that there is this other element of the change. That was actually super formative. So this happened actually just on friday. So i was interviewing tommy caldwell who you might know he is. He's an extremely skilled climber. He's considered one of the greatest. Big wall climbers in the world and he scaled the dawn wall which was deemed impossible By just about everyone and he did it with nine freaking fingers because he cough one of his fingers during a would shopping accident in his garage. Okay so the the the chain story. I was most interested in had. Actually well preceded losing the finger. It happened when he was climbing kirghistan and he was Held hostage by these captors and for six days was under their watch and was basically an estate of severe starvation extremely cold temperatures. They thought they were gonna die of hypothermia and they can't converse with their captors or these two totally different languages and they're trying to plot an escape route and in the end Tommy ends up pushing one of his captors off the cliff So and he. I think he surprised himself because like he's a very kind of like soft timid type and he doesn't believe that one should kill and so he has to reckon with this event for so many years and so i was probing into that part of the story right which is like it. Seemed like you prove to yourself. You know where your actual limits were rightly. You're able to endure this really intense experience but the part. That was so interesting to me. That i didn't even think for a second about until i got to the interview. Is that the true motivation for him. The reason why he's been able to engage in incredible feats since curious is actually because he's been chasing a mental state that he had only experience once when he was curious fan so it was about four days into his captivity where his body i think totally went from starving and apathetic to survival mode and he said that he felt profound mental clarity and focus in that moment he was in the ultimate flow state. Everything in a world was sharp and clear and he knew exactly what he needed to do and how to do it and he said it was so intoxicating that since that day he's been chasing that high and is only reached at once even tried to starve himself once like clive to see if he could get back there okay. He reached it when he was scaling. The john wall and i remember telling him. Tommy if an alien descended on this planet and knew that you had this deeply harrowing experience and that you are then. Try to recreate those circumstances normal life because it was a change that you had actually desired was something you striving for thinking. You're insane but that's been the secret sauce to his experience and again i just love it when a guest teaches me you know about their story and makes me think about chain a totally different way. You know it's funny because you're naturally a performer right. You're going to be performer. you're gonna play the violin. You're going to be on a stage you've now got you now built a stage in your on it again and you're very naturally there. I remember when i first met you when you were giving that talk to those people the harvard business school. You were so a performer. You so obviously just made to be in front of people talking and So now you're now you're doing it How is being podcast changing you so i think it is making me a much better listener And i actually don't see myself as the performer. I i tried to every interview as though i'm giving the guests the stage right because that's the person who story. I'm trying to shine the light on right and so my only role is to figure out the right questions to ask such that. They reveal really fascinating things about themselves. I think it's just wonderful to be on this end of the mike done tons of interviews given tons of talks performed so many times as a violinist and in many ways i'm now an audience member but i'm like audience member who's almost like a music critic a little bit because she's trying to pro deep and try to figure out where some of the cracks are and like and dig in there right so you telling me that five years now when you come over to my house for dinner. You're going to be kind of quiet. Recessive shy yeah. You won't even be able to get a word out of me. You'll just be there. I'll be you'll leave these. You'll leave awkward silences that i have to fill. That's that's where you're going now. I'm a cut the show off. Yeah no no. I i think the other thing is teaching me is like i don't i don't tend to get like any sort of stage fright or anxiety going into an interview or conversation. I think maybe the reason for that is that when you're a little kid and you're forced to go on stage. Play these deeply technical passages when you're then told later in life you simply have to talk like speak words you're like oh wow sign up for that. That's a hell of a lot easier. And i'm hoping that the fact that i'm not approaching. The conversations with anxiety is putting my guests at peace to write letting them feel open like. We're really just having a conversation. Which is what. I'm hoping will be the vibe at the show. It's really meant to be not super formal. I can be quite irreverent at times. That is my actual personality. Is you know right. And so i'm hoping at least part of that. That comes through all right. I'm gonna let you go great to see you and let's have dinner gibson. 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You can subscribe to a slight change of plans wherever you listen to against the rules okay. Here's the episode. So i was riding in my car. I'm driving and this clansman was sitting in my passenger seat. And we got on the on the topic of crime and he made the mention that black people are born with a gene. That makes them. Violent and i said look. I'm as black as anybody you've ever seen. I have never done a drive by or a carjacking. How do you explain that. This man did not hesitate one second. He entered me instantly. He said you genus layton. Hasn't come out yet. That's daryl davis a blues musician and yeah you heard him right. He's driving in his car with a member of the ku klux klan. I was speechless. I was dumbfounded. And he's sitting next to me all snug and secure you see you have nothing to say and i thought about it for a moment rather than attacking. You say it's not true. It's not true. I said to him. I said you know why people have gene within them that make them serial killers and he said why would you say that said. Well jason name me. Three black serial killers thought about it. You couldn't name anybody you couldn't do it. I rattled off charles. Manson jeffrey dahmer henry. Lucas john wayne. Casey ted bundy david berkowitz son of sam albert desalvo's the boston strangler. And i said son you are a serial killer. And he said daryl. I've never killed anybody. I said your weight and hasn't come out yet. He said well that's stupid. And i. it is stupid and he got very very quiet. And i could tell that. The gears in his head was spinning superfast by brennan hole in there and then he a moment later he changed the subject but within five months this guy with the twin since that car ride thirty years ago. Daryl davis has gone on to convince dozens of people to leave the ku klux klan. Convincing someone else to change their minds. Their view of reality is one of the most e