7 Episode results for "Danny Sugarman"
Part 2: Robby Krieger talks The Doors History and Lasting Legacy (ACS Apr 14)
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You live in Glendale area like we're probably drive past your house on my way to work every day but actually my studios in Glendale but I I grew up like in the Palisades Pacific palisades. Oh you're Los Angelino your parents route here too right. Yeah yeah well. My Mom's from Iowa but She met my dad out here at Usc or somewhere like that and yet my dad grew up in Long Beach Yeah so I'm one of the few people's also from here so he said you mean Dr drew are the only people who are here well in show business. 'cause it's when you're in show business one comes here from somewhere else. Yeah not even in showbusiness all businesses. That seems like that's why the homeless people like out here. It's it's the weather so nice so You grow up in so cow you start a band called the doors or you're part of the doors and nine hundred and sixty five is when you guys come together. You're nineteen at that point. Yeah something like that. Yeah right away you know. It's funny because nineteen used to seem old enough now. It seems like you're nine right like guys used to go fight wars and start bands and stuff. I mean think about the stuff you did at nineteen versus what my kids are going to do it. Nineteen I know in a way though. It's it's the opposite because nowadays. I see these kids Online playing guitar when they're like five three or four or five years old and are shredding man like I didn't start till I was fourteen. No I wish I started when I was five years old. Did you start playing the piano? I believe Yeah I played trump a little bit and piano but not seriously so you know I don't want to make this whole interview about like What was Jim Morrison liked? But I I I saw the movie I loved the movie I read the book. I love the books. One of the few books of red in my entire life really. I mean it's sad but it but it's true but when you saw the movie and when you read the book what were your feelings. Oh Gosh well. I knew the guy that wrote the book. Danny sugarman here is kind of A. He started off as press agent when he was like fifteen years old Just a big fan you know. So he kind of He. Kind of embellish. The book a little bit kind of you know he put his own. Hey put gyms words in his own mouth kind of you know. Jim didn't really talk like that. You know that's how Danny would talk so You know it but you know the overall it was As pretty good book but it You know I would have done a little different in fact. I'm writing one right now. What when can we look forward to that coming out? hopefully by the end of the year So we'll we'll look forward to that we'll have you back when it comes out So for you and in the movie Oliver Stone Movie. What was your general. Take on that well. I was You know I was on the set quite a bit I just wanted to make sure that the the musical parts were correct which they were Oliver Stone did a great job. I think in the concert footage and you know. Val kilmer was amazing. Save up a sang. He Sang like ninety percent of the stuff himself. Yeah he should have won an academy award for that. He he just was. Jim Morrison in that movie to me but was it was he. Jim Morrison to you. Yes on the set. It he wanted. Everybody Call Jim. You know and we did. It was just almost like having Jim. There was it kind of surreal for you. I mean at least it was. It was Especially having a guy playing me right there now I teach. The guy had a play. The Guitar and stuff was pretty funny and teach Jim. I'm guessing to teach him to play like you as well. I mean I mean. He couldn't play. But I mean is like how you would do it yeah. I showed him the proper physicians. You know and positions instead. He wasn't really playing but he effected pretty well. Frank Whaley yeah now. He was great. Everyone everyone was really satisfying in that movie. At the only problem I had with it. Was that it really. Didn't show the true dynamic between the four of us on me it was mostly about GM and has you know praising us and which is you know find for Hollywood movie but you know I'm I'm I'm trying to get another movie. Made Right now about about the early days of the doors. Shield up until like expire hits and then I mean well what was. How long was everyone together? How long did the doors exists before light? My fire sort of blew up probably two years. And that's you guys playing around so cows sunset strip and in all that was there. Did you guys go on the road back then? Or was it all. Soak sunset strip kind of stuff Before light my fire yeah. It was pretty much. La We might have Donde San Francisco a couple of times maybe phoenix you. Know but Yeah that was about. How would you guys draw at like a Gazelle or the whiskey or some place like that pre light? My Fire It kind of got better and better you know when we started out were played at a place called the London fog which was right down the street from the whiskey. Now just west of the whiskey and you know we The reason we got the gigs we. We tried out one night and we had all of our friends from like. Ucla and stuff come down so the patch packed guys amazing okay. You guys had the job right next tonight. Five people there and then it slowly got better and better and pretty soon It was pretty full and then we went to the whiskey and we became like the house band at the whisky so That was that was really cool. Because they've got to play a lot of our heroes and stunts. Yeah who was named some of the guys and gals and bands. He would have been playing with Baghdad. While the first one was van Morrison them band is called them at Gloria and all that stuff and I was pretty cool. We got to all play Gloria on stage together the last night too. Yeah which you guys. You guys covered. Gloria right yeah. Yeah we did. We used to play it on the time So Van Morrison who who else Gosh Buffalo Springfield. Turtles Let's see Otis Redding Lot of people is there. Somebody are some band that you think was forgotten a little bit or maybe underrated like sometimes people say to me. Well what are you thinking I go well? The hollies were one of those bands that had tons of good songs and hits and things like that. But you may not remember them or you may not know that song although songs well you know our heroes were was loves. Arthur Lee and love. You know before before we played at the Whiskey. They were a big big band of the whiskey and everywhere else. Can they play it all and we have to sneak into watch them because we weren't twenty twenty one yet but they were kind of our Our heroes you know. They helped us get signed to Elektra records. Even how old was everybody when you first came together? You're nineteen went about raise. I was the youngest Jim was maybe twenty one. John was a year older than me would have been. Twenty and ray was a little older. He was like twenty eight and So we'll hop all over the place but according to the to the math when Jim Morrison died in in France in Paris. You were twenty five right or thereabouts. Yeah we'll sounds right. What what was. It's a very you know when I was twenty five. I was doing nothing. I hadn't begun anything in life in for you. It was like you'd have this whole career. All these hits all this music all this storing and you're twenty five. What what was your sort of reaction to that. Or what was your thought on it. let's a good question. I mean I didn't think to myself. Oh Shit he's dead. Were you know life is over but You know I was kind of amazed at lasted as long as it. Did you know because Jim was so crazy? And you know you never know. Knew what he was going to do the next day. You know what I'm saying so it was really amazing that we pumped out six album stuff. During that time you know was it was he. Did he seem crazy? A radic eccentric. Like how would you describe him? And then what what his diagnosis be? If he was a kid today. probably bipolar You know maybe manic depression something like that. You know. Most of the time he was great he was fine like when when he was just doing acid or or marijuana or being straight he was the greatest guy ever on me. Just the nicest guy most polite you know. He came from the south so Had really good manners. He could charm the out of anybody you know including your mother but when he started getting back into liquor That's what brought the the bad side out and And we called the Jimbo Jimbo's here lookout was You talk about your mother and her parents. It was always interesting to me that he said his dad or parents were dead. His Dad I think was a rear admiral for the navy. He ever have a discussion with him about that. Did you ever meet his parents had ever come to a show was was there? His mother came to one show. Lost you. Well that's right. I can still hear you. You see me. I can't see but I can hear you. And that's the main thing I'm interested in so you can. You can convey the story up Cam elements so now I see okay Oh it's so yeah One time we were aback in Virginia Doing a show and Jim's mother shows up kind of unannounced you know and band age. Yeah backstage and and Jim wouldn't see her keeper don't letter don't let her in and she was. She was real bitchy shoes going well. This these lights aren't right for my son. I mean you know I should have better lighting in this place you know. She was real Kinda Bossy. I don't know what he saw in her but he was definitely obsessed with her. Well so Jim you're saying the gym was obsessed with his mother. Yeah he had what you call. Oedipus complex well. I wasn't that I think that was spelled out in the end right. Yeah so she'll wait a minute. This is interesting to me. So gyms dance a rear admiral. I mean that's a pretty straight laced gig right. Yeah he actually fired. The first shot at the Gulf of Tonkin really visa is boat was the I took the first shot So in the Vietnam War so everyone was about protesting the Vietnam War of course back then especially and his mom who was married to the Rear Admiral was a little bit of. I Dunno control free perfectionist. There's something wrong with. It seemed like that night. I you know I hadn't met her before that. Ah TO KINDA WEIRD BUT You know I I wondered why Jim I just figured that the reason he said his parents were dead was because he didn't want to embarrass them you know he knew there were very straight laced. Southern you know People are navy people and a Yeah he knew that he was going to be out there doing crazy stuff and he didn't want them to have to be associated with him. You know but then the whole SORTA was. I really. Don't know why he said he could have just said but when you say obsessed with his mom did he talk about her a lot and route he. Yeah all his girlfriend's Kinda looked like area loved red hair you know. His mom had When he would be on acid he said he told me that he would see his mother space in the moon when he would look at the moon and see. His mother's face was are complex relationship to have you know if you've read Freud it's really not it's You know according to Freud. Everybody every kid really is in love with his mother and his totally jealous of his father and kill them all right. So that's where the end came from other. I want to and father. I WANNA kill you. Yeah but in his case he really you really felt that in most most cases it's buried underneath and people don't ever realize that they That they have that oedipus complex but with him. It was right on the surface. I never met ain't going back did When when he would go off on these crazy tangents for lack of a better. I don't WanNa call me crazy tangent. We need to go off in this direction. Did you ever sort of think you know relayed in? Let's stay in our lane. We want to sell some make some music and sell some units. It's never be played on the radio. Like how can we do this? Like come back and join us over here in the world of the Sane Are you talking musically? Yeah like or a review all in now we were all in you know we thought it was coolest thing in the world the end how that you know came out You know to us it was are you know and You know the the bad part was that you know he was He had this self destructive thing going on where where threatened to ruin the band at any moment you know so it was very hard to deal with So much I go ahead night. We actually recorded the end. He had taken so much acid That After working all day and we got the end we did. It would only did two takes really and they cut them together to make one type but So we're all ready to home in on. Jim Goes now come on. Let's keep on you know I'm just feeling good you know and we're all fucking wasted. You know so. We says ow. I Jim come on. Now come back tomorrow. We'll start again so we all left. Jim Left and then later that night he came back he broke into the studio and host. The whole place down with fire retardant And just made a big big mess and Should have gone to jail really but The the guy from electric Didn't press charges and somehow kept him. Kept the whole thing. Quiet you know. Did he wrote on the tape or the takes from day. Not The tapes. Luckily he He it ruined the Harpsichord J. Spray. Down the mixing console just a lot about stuff. So you knew. Did you know how important what you were doing? Or how groundbreaking what you were doing was when you were doing it or not and so did a lecture. And that's the reason why they let him get away with. That shit is when when he went off to. I only know. Well I read the book and I know the movie version of it. When he went off to Paris was there the thought of? He's GonNa come back and we're going to continue to be the doors. Is that or even if it was said did you feel. That wasn't a sad especially but I I definitely planned on. You know. Yeah I knew him. I knew that He lip to be on stage. And you know if he once he came back there was nothing else that would have happened but we would continued and we just did. Ed finished one of their best albums ever and most fun album. Sell a woman So you know he was He would come back. Yeah you said he lived to be on stage but you know in the movie famously. Turned his back to the audience. Did he do that at the beginning in real life? Yeah now beginning is super shy and and You know he ah. He didn't really WANNA be well he must have wanted to be onstage but yeah he wanted to be a poet as what he wants to be and you know. I think he figured rock and roll was one way to get his lyrics out there. Have people hear them? But along the way there he fell in love with being on stage and and being Being the frontman. What was your relationship with being onstage? Sh It's all right. I can hear you okay Mostly I was. I like to hide in the back. You know I was such super shy and You know I I was content just to kind of be one of the band and You know there. There weren't that many guitar hero types back them except for Chuck Berry who I really loved but You Know I. I wasn't much of a singer and So just I just I like to be in the background. You know did In your from L. as we discuss we're talking about Jim Morrison's parents. How did your parents Take this crazy stardom that you had such a. I mean starting I guess. Twenty one pretty much right. Twenty maybe Oh they were into it. They they love it. I was lucky. My parents were very open minded and Of course my dad wanted me to be an engineer like him. He was like a rocket science. Kinda guy at northrop and He'd gone to Ucla and and contact so You know I was. I was actually at Ucla at the time and You know once we started to really popular around La. I just panicked with you. So I didn't tell my dad that I just kind of stopped going to classes I said hey this is what I WANNA do. And once my dad wants one slide. My fire came out. My parents. Were like the proudest happiest parents ever. You know whether they allardice they followed us around Europe and you know they used to come to all the shows they they loved the Everyone met it. Ucla is that correct Pretty much I mean Jim and Ray met at UCLA. You know they were in the film school and I was just in regular UCLA. So I didn't really know them. That will Yet and John Dinsmore went to Valley State Northridge. Oh Cal State Northridge Tonight. I met him in high school. At Uni Heim. Oh yeah that university is that. Yeah and that's in Santa Monica West. La So you guys all come together and you don't have a Bass player which is pretty unique for band. True th-wa The only other. Dan didn't have a bass player that we knew was the seeds. I don't even know the sea. It's another sees. CanNot let me why they are crops. what was their main song Shit I don't know you'd have to tell me what this guy steeds. Sky Sox Never God. It sounds familiar. I know. Oh the human beans some group. I go pretty deep. And some of those sixties like one hit wonders. But I don't know the seeds will. How old are you? I'm fifty five. Okay Yeah Yeah you probably would not because they were. They had like two songs on the radio. And that was it you know. I don't think they were very cool. You should look them up. I don't know if the seeds made it to. You know the Oldie Station. So they have can't seem to make you mine. I guess Oh pushing too hard. Is that a song rushing to? That's ahead Oh yeah oh yeah pushed into home on me too right. Yeah I know. They don't have a base that the guy played just the low end of a keyboard for for the base array have just little channel based thing that he would stick on top of the Oregon and that was pretty close vendor piano base. Had I think eighteen keys or something like that? The cool thing was that you know. It's SORTA gave us our own sound. Because Roy had to play that base with his left hand so he's kind of put it on automatic pilot so the baselines were very repetitive. And kind of hypnotic that kind of gave us a hypnotic quality that a lot of bounce didn't have yeah And now as I listened to push into hard by the sea in my head although Chris you're GonNa have to pull that up but I do hear. I can hear similarities now. I realize that. Yeah that had that that sound to it so when you guys would record did. Was there ever Bass player in their first session? Yeah we always had a bass player on the records mostly except for the first album On the first album we played everything with the Piano Bass and then after afterwards I overdubbed a real base on a couple of the songs like Soul kitchen and twenty century Fox and a couple of other ones back tomorrow. Back to you you play. You played the Anaya over overdubbed later and then there was a guy named Shit what's his name he did. Light my fire. Larry knechtel. There was a studio musician. Type Guy he could play anything and he and he just copied. Exactly what ray played on the Piano Bass I think we have a little bit of pushing too hard by the seeds. Let's see if I can hear that song odd off on. Okay Hi good. That's where all is right in the world. I know that Song I knew it was the seeds. It always sounded very British invasion to me. Yeah but they weren't there from the balance thing down on how all those how you know the Beatles and the British invasion came around it was everyone was copping that sound. Not THE DOORS. The doors now. We actually are our favorite bands. Were from England. You know them nor suspend and Who Else Animals Eric? Burden animals and not to say we copied them. But we we. We like them a lot. We you know we want to be like them. The Beatles had just got here when you guys were getting together right Yeah there'd been a couple of years we've been gone a couple years by them So let's go back then. Let's talk about Light my fire. So that song blew up the band and the good news. Is that a whole bunch of other. Great songs came after that song as well. So you guys were able to obviously sustain it in the movie depicts how the creation of that. Song went down. But you were there. So how did it go down? It was I actually talked to Oliver about that scene. You know and how should be? And of course he didn't really listen to me Yeah I actually wrote the song home one day you know. That was first song I wrote for the doors because up until then you know Jim. This is early on and Jim was the writer he you know. He had about ten songs that he had written early on and ray helped them flesh them out. You know like moonlight drive and Hello I love. You was one that early once Can't remember what else could then at one point. Jim says. Hey you know. We don't have enough originals. Can Cause we've been doing cover songs are sets. You know we play. Gloria you know all all the stones of the day Otis redding stuff and So he says hey. We need more originals. Not Why why do I have to write all the songs you guys writes them so I went home and tried to write and I was the only one that actually didn't but jaw? I said what should I write about? And he told me. Write about something universal something that will go out of style too quick. You know what I'm saying so I said okay. In that case I will write something about Earth air fire or water so I picked fire because I always loved that song by stones. Play with fire. Yeah Good Song. Yeah. There's all there's all that's a good song. And then there's also a song called fire by like our mysterious Arthur Brown mysterious world of Arthur Brown or the world of Arthur Brown. But that was after that my right that was Jimi Hendrix had his fire song to as rice. Right you know I was the first person ever to put the three words. Light my fire together and really nobody'd ever said those three words before so I don't know where that came from but so you went. You went home and you wrote that. Song I did. I did so And I you know up until that point. Our songs were all kind of very simple songs. You know. They're all blues very blues base three chord songs. You know so. I said okay. I'm gonNA write something that's got a lot. A lot of chords Tree a tricky Lousy Turkeys and like my fire doesn't really sound tricky or anything but if you count the number of chords in something like twenty different chords and that song just the intro alone has a about seven towards is that died on that out on route route which goes G G F Five B Flat Eve. A fly a assistant the intro and an actually that wasn't the intro to begin with that was only to get out of the out of the instrumental back to the song and it was actually Paul. Rothschild's idea Paul Rotschild who produced most of our albums He says hey. That's the great part. Let's put it in the beginning. You know as an intro and not only that we use at the very end to to to end the song so it's actually in three places in the song so did they know what you had when you came back. The next day with that song they liked. They liked it a lot. And you know the part. We're talking about which came the intro. You know that was just cords to begin with you know little by little rate put in that box stuff. Ronel took months to come up with the movie. He does in one twenty minutes. You said you gotta go out to the beach off figure this part out so yeah I think they call it artistic license but it's weird artistic license on artistic on an artistic endeavor you know what I mean after. I told them how it went. You know yeah well. I've heard Oliver's pretty headstrong. Yeah yeah he is in fact he what he did was he had a good writer for the movie God what's his name out. Think of an amount but he never used any of it he just wrote himself all the dialogue and stuff is is actually Oliver Stone. Jay Randall. Johnson I'm looking at the bottom of my screen. Yeah Randy Johnson. Yeah Yeah I Well for what it's worth. I love the move. Had No idea. What part of it was accurate in one? Part of it was better. If we around these script believe him well. I still enjoyed it. I mean he hit Stamps DOT COM. Here you want to avoid the crowds specially. Yeah now you want avoid the post office STAMPS DOT COM for over ten years. We've used these guys to send out merchant books and paperwork and everything else whether your small business and you're sending out Invoices are online sell. Learn you're shipping products? You need to work at home these days and you need stamps. Dot Com buying print. Us postage any letter any package. Twenty four seven and do it at home. Five cents off every first class stamp in forty percent off shipping rates and now up to sixty two percents worth the discounts on ups services as well so let's go to stamps dot com. They got a special offer for week. Trial Plus Free Postage and a digital scale. No long term commitment. Just go to stamps. Dot Com Click on the microphone top of the homepage and tight band atom that has stamps dot com. Enter Adam all right. We'll take a quick break and we'll be back to Talk to the Great Robby. Krieger right after this spirit of Murrow. Jenny cronkite. Here's another great moment. In local thousands of rolls of toilet paper went up in flames in Texas today. Big Rings his crashed and burned. Truckdriver wasn't hurt the hall in demand on stayed. That's that's a great moment in local news now back to the Adam Corolla Robby. Krieger is here. He's got his hands. The ritual begins at sundown on the name of the first almond at ten years from robby. Krieger website robby. Krieger dot com and then Almaz going the full albums. GonNa drop on August fourteenth. And you can go to apple music spotify. Google play Amazon Youtube and check it out The have you been in love with the guitar? Your entire essentially from fourteen on. Yeah exactly My friend had a guitar. Bob Wire was his name. We come barbed wire and he had a little. He had a guitar at his house. And I always used to go over there and I would pick it up them now before that I. I wanted to play trumpet because my friend. Lowering Hughes he played at school. He played the taps. You know. aren't at the time that you never really loved that. Wait a minute. That's not the taps that's the REVEILLE REVEILLE reveille. Yeah they used to play. So I want to Walter Reed Elementary in the San Fernando Valley and I think they would play that over the loud speakers probably recording. You didn't have a guy actually playing no wasn't like Santa Anita cool like we played it every day and he was the best trumpet player school and all that so. I wanted to do that so I took trumpet. Lhasa and stuff never got good enough. Yeah I don't know what you would have done. I guess you could have joined her. Bowel occurred or like. That certainly probably wouldn't be in doors with the with the trumpet. So you guys. All guys all meet essentially. Ucla or most you're going to UCLA. Some of you to say northridge. Actually three of US met at the Maharishi is first meditation meeting and L. A. O'Reilly. Yeah there was like the sprint his brother had gone to India to search for a guru. Right and a talked to all these gurus and and this one guy he loved was Maharishi and and so he he talked my re Shannon coming to La to start the movement. You know in the United States and out so this meeting was at Peter Up Peter. Wallace's parents house in the PALISADES and there may have been ten or fifteen people there an out of those fifteen people. There was many John and ray that later became the doors. That was pretty fortuitous. And was there. Did you guys decide have discussions at that meeting with some music now? Maharishi basically was the speaker. You know he's talking about about the meditation all that and then after the meeting ray comes up to John and he goes. Hey I heard your drummer John Goes Yeah. She's Well we need a drummer my my brothers band skull rick and the Ravens and The drummer just quit so Juwan come and try out you know. And so he says okay. Yeah I and my friend. Here's a guitar player says. Well we don't need a guitar player. 'cause my brother. Plays Guitar so John John and Ray hooked up that way and then John brought me in a little later Three of US showing up at that. One meeting is pretty amazing. I would think well. What are your thoughts on things like that? Do you think that speaks to a higher power or an alternate source in the universe or something or is it all too and definitely something to it It is too many coincidences that happened. for to be just random chance you know what I'm saying. His ever been discussion about replacing. Jim Morrison are was there discussions about replacing. Jim Morrison you mean before he died. No no sorry after I mean after Not at first you know. We actually did two albums as the doors without Jim And there's actually some pretty good stuff on there with Ray is singing not very well but the and and at that point we said she says no. We should try to you. Know we don WANNA. We knew. We couldn't replace Jim. But we gotta do something you know so. We all decided to move to London which we did. Everybody moved to London. And we're going to look for a singer so we looked for A. We had a couple of guys that we looked out. And then after a couple of months. -rageous decided. Hey and the sinking of work. And so he. He went back home and John. And that was it for the doors and re John my state over there and we actually formed this band of the but spans which was pretty cool is is was everyone financially set for life because of all the amazing commercial success or did you guys own publishing and that kind of stuff did you get ripped off by the you. Know the the label we but We're lucky because We had a a girlfriend of ours. That Donna who New This lawyer Abe Summers. And we're also lucky 'cause we only had a three year contract with Elektra so you know about the third year we're pretty. They're doing pretty well with the doors and they wanted to keep us so you know when we signed with them. We signed our publishing away for five grand. And that's what I did back then. You know though as a matter. Of course it's you know you need fucking five grand. You're GonNa do it you know and we were just lucky to get it back You know they signed us back and to do that. We need publishing and they were very good about it. Because a lot of companies wouldn't have done that so you guys do own the publishing. Yes we do so that for ways by the way. Which was Jim's idea because like I said. At First. He was writing a lot of the songs so most of the songs but he says hey man. I wanted to be everybody. Everybody contribute to the writing. And and we're going to split everything for ways because he knew that we wouldn't put up with his shit unless that was the case. Oh so wasn't because he was a humanitarian. It was just that earth I will both. He didn't he really doesn't care about money you know. He honestly did not. Here's one guy that I can say. That really didn't give a shit about money here all his life. He'll lived in motels or his our girls. This house he never had a house did Was Part of Ray's decision to return to the United States without a new singer and sort of a effectively And the doors was that financial. I mean he was okay financially. I mean Yeah Jayme to work. We were not rolling in dough but at that time but It was you know the the main reason to be honest was that his wife. Dorothy was pregnant at the time and she started going nuts. You know out. Some people do at the hormones and stuff and she She really wanted to go back home. And have the baby there and watch you know can't glamour but and at the same time John and I or going offer musically a little bit different direction than Ray Ray wants to be more jazz and we want to be more rock and so it was just. It was kind of a combination of all those things. Did you when you look at people to replace Jim. Was anybody any good or was it one of these things where nobody could ever be could replace him. I mean what was the mindset? What is it is it would. It have never worked I. That's a good question You know the truth is we really didn't even get to try out more than one or two guys before ray decided to break it up You know we thought about Paul McCartney. That'd be great daddy's a Bass player to you know right but Laden to thank she would go for a while at the time the Beatles just bow broken up down right. That would have been great you know. Was there ever an actual conversation with? Paul McCartney no stood you are too hard to get hold of. How does it work? I'm very curious because I always hear a lot a catalog talk like own the catalog or the publishing rights or all that kind of stuff and the doors have so many amazing songs. I feel like They're great soundtracks and movies or needle drops. I guess as a calm and movies and stuff like that. How does it? How does it work is there? A is there monthly check one gets from these entities. If somebody says making a movie I WANNA use it. Put a door song in who somebody contact you. How's IT Work They they might try to contact me but I have to go through our manager. Who now is the guy named just jampal and and then we have a publisher as well guy named Randall. Wixom but the fact is that John Ray and I and the estate of Jim Morrison whose split into two entities one as From his wife Bam who died a couple of years after Jim so her parents are sister. is in charge of that. Then and then the other part of that entity is Jim Sister Anne and his brother. Andy who control one eight I suppose. Sorry sorry. Jim's brother and sister His yeah exactly. Who are they. Older younger I think they were. They were a little older no. Maybe the sister was younger. Can't remember but not not too far apart. You know Andy. Morrison Is kind of a cool guy. He he moved to Hawaii way back in the day. And he's just over there and lives here in La and her son Dylan is Sort of taken over the The catalog stuff for them his What is the relationship? If any with the Jim Morrison's brother and sister do talk you get along via Yeah I mean you know we don't hang out or nothing but You know is mostly at business meetings and stuff. We we see them. That's a good relationship. Because the doors have generated. I'm guessing ended up hundreds of millions of dollars over the years right. Is that an accurate statement. I wish it was that much but I would say maybe eighty at least sna worse. The good thing is it keeps going. It's you know we still get pretty damn good checks every Every Korda busy. So let's you know there's a couple of things about eighty million bucks. One is when you guys were hanging out. Teen Eighty Million Bucks sounded insane the other hand houses in the neighborhood. You grew up. Dan are going for four point. Seven billion dollars now which also sounds utterly insane right. Yeah Yeah I mean you know. I bought this House my house here in in up in West. La Benedict Canyon It was three point two acres bought it for ninety seven thousand dollars back in seventy nine hundred seventy. I think it was and it's It's appreciated a lot. GotTa be worth. I'll be five million bucks. I don't know I mean look I. I bought my first house up. Beechwood Canyon under the Hollywood sign and this was in the mid late nineties and it was three hundred fifty grand so stuff has gone up an insane amount. But we digress. So as far as the doors go Jim dies in nineteen. Seventy I believe. Seventy one of seventy one. Sorry and maybe the doors are and then a great album comes out with so many great. Is You guys do Riders on the storm. Is that the last song that you guys recorded One of the last. I'm not sure if it was the very last but Yeah L. A. Woman riders on the storm. I remember I was in stalling closets in the mid eighties. I was working on a house in. Reseda like a condominium. And it's back when Dj's you know when Dj was a job and they tell you stories and they would talk up a song and riders on the storm had such a long beginning right where so the DJ was just talking all the way through that and he was explaining and again. I was young ish and working installing closets. You know but I was talking about. This is the last song recorded and they added the thunder in the rain to it and Jim. Morrison passed away before the before this came out. I just remember hearing it all back and a real consumable way. 'cause it had the music underneath that had the DJ telling the story. And I remember thinking. Wow how eerie you know to see here the began. That's all you think about. It came. It dropped after Jim. Morrison passed away according to the DJ was the last recording with the doors. But yeah I might have been. It might have been I I know one of the last things we did on. That album was to add the thunder to To the song. And it's funny because that thunder was actually recorded by Bruce Bottleneck. Who was our engineer about ten years before that 'cause Elektra record cease to make these albums of sound effects and the thunder was one of those sound effects so he they had like a Foley Department or something where they had sound facts and he'd have to go out in record that and so that was just in the library right on a real I guess back then now it'd be everyone's sure in everyone's pewter so let's try to figure out sort of adores popularity chart so everything went nuts. Probably after Jim Morrison died but then the eighties where the worst time ever. So people started listening to Durant Iran and proudly little classic rock. But obviously than a resurgence with the the movie the doors where we now I mean. You're you're you get the checks on a quarterly basis. I don't need to know how much they are but what I what I'm curious like. How popular are the doors in two thousand and twenty versus nineteen eighty five? Oh Lot more. I'm more I mean you know in the late seventies and eighties. Thurs were way down on the list. You know We've figured it would just Peter out and stop that that's pretty much how I viewed it you know and The only one that didn't I have to say it was Raymond teric man. He never gave up the ghost. You Talkin up the doors forever. You know he didn't care for it was a guy That a high school with a with no wanted him to speak on the radio for college. Radio station whatever he kept beating that thing and you know always talking about how Jim might not have died. Really you know ages. He was beat beating the horse. The dead horse and you know John. Didn't like that Yeah a lot of people didn't but I have to say it might have kept The thing going You know enough to to the fact. That Danny sugarman was interested enough to write that book. Which later the made the movie. Yeah from kind of made the movie from that book. Well then it's interesting and that here he are. You Know Jim. Dies in seventy one. The band is over in the very early seventies by the time we get from there to the mid later seventies weren't disco at this point now that further away from the doors than the village people disco which was great for the doors. Because you know because there is nothing nothing really good on the radio That that created a space for guys like Jim Ladan and You know Some of these Fm Stations Back then to Play the doors and play. You know stuff you know Bob Dylan. Whatever anything but disco and the trap those coming out right. And then it goes into the horrible eighty s lot horrible eighty stuff a lot of synthesizer and since signing on drums and the opposite music kind of flock of seagulls and all that shit so gets really bad. And then you must be thinking somewhere around eighty six fifteen years. After Jim died this is going to coast to a stop and sooner sooner than later and know I I wasn't playing doorstops. I mean I I was going into jazz and jazz fusion and stuff like that so I'd I hadn't played doors songs price for twenty years And then what happened? Was there sprang up some of these doors tribute bands There's one called krystal ship in which the Guitar Player is now my guitar for us and for a spin and Dave Brock and his group wild child and They were they were starting to really well. You know they were filling up places like Kalinski and even bigger places and so I would go and sit in with them once in a while just for fun and that's God forget how much fun this used to be. You know little by little. I started playing more doors songs in my and my set when I would play out I would do instrumental versions of them and stuff like that and then came. The book is Do You keep in touch with ray and John I would but race dead. Goddamn all right. Forgot he died. When did he pass away like three years ago? I must've heard that sorry. But he was alive. Would you be in touch with him? In fact you know the year two thousand or so. I was Like I said I was doing more doors songs in my set and I started really missing the doing the doors so I called and I said Hey man knowing played some doors songs you know and you know little by little he got into the idea now so we called. John and John didn't WanNa do is now you guys go ahead be the doors on an? I'm done with that. You know and so ray and I you know we. We had this these guys who wanted to sing you know There was this show on. Tv It was called the VH1 storytellers. Yep So we had about ten guys. That would sing. He adores son. Different guys too early. Who ended up playing with ray and I and Guy From Stone Temple pilots and there was really a bunch of good singers From shoot wrestling anyway. Perry Farrell sure. So you know it was starting to look like. Hey maybe maybe now's the time we could replace Jim after thirty years. You know 'cause Yeah obviously nobody was would be as good as but but these guys are very much influenced by Jim you know especially in aspirin especially and that worked out pretty well we ran. I played for probably fifteen years together before he passed away. Yeah I'm looking at Scott. Weiland Stone Temple pilots got passed. Not Too long ago. Did a Scott STAPP did with when John Dinsmore said You guys go out without me. What what was he saying? Was He just saying good locker? Rec- saying fuck you or she's saying I'm tired like what? What do you think that was China of all three? You know he he he and raved and get along anyway and You know he And he had tonight is really bad with this year so he didn't WanNa play loud music so he said You guys go ahead and do it. You know and So we ended up getting for drummer. We got What's his name Stewart Copeland. Oh well not too shabby from the place right Giancana got a little jealous about that is is ray. What kind of guy was ray? I mean did he keep. Did he stay the course his whole life? I mean sort of kind of kind of out there interesting poet. Whatever counterculture guy. I mean we were very very intelligent. Guy You know very smart and He was Very artistic and he had read a lot. You know like Jim too you know. They're both had read every every NICI and all that stuff and But like I say he was older than US. He was like twenty seven. I think when we started and You know he had dorothy. They were pretty much married even not on paper yet but So and Jim actually lived with them for for a while when just after UCLA They have this little two bedroom place in and so he he was living with them. And that's right when we started and Ray Very very different kind of a guy. I think the main thing about ray was. His sense of humor was very very dry sense of humor so that that would get him in trouble. People would take it the wrong way and stuff but the funny thing was when when you know when Jim was around. Ray was kind of his personality. Which is super strong personality? Type Bay was held in check by Jim so we never really saw the real ray until Jim had passed on. And what was the real like I said type? A personality You know very bossy. Very you know he Total confidence in himself even though they're not much reason to at some point but You know so when he came home you know from England When John Nine worse with stayed there he came home and he formed another doors essentially banned. I forget what it was called but they were horrible. You know and he kept telling John and Iowa we're going to be the next door shuts no worries. Don't worry about that. We're going to be the number one band of the country and that lasted for about six months. Yeah well it I I mean I guess could go any other way. I know it could but I mean. Isn't this always kind of the store? I mean you guys relatively seemed to have gotten on or able to sort of have your post doors live better than so many other bands out there that have had so much difficulty tragedy. I mean it. It's so baked into just about every ban where people are talking anymore. You guys had. We had our problems believe may have. Maybe you didn't hear about the lawsuit. John John Sued Right Ni- for using the name. Oh that's right that's right. Yeah what was John? I look I don't want to speak ill the dead but he he just he still alive raised. I'm sorry jumped up now. Some people are worse job a hosting Jim ladd. Is Jim leads still alive. He's going to pissed if he here since God Damn. It was probably listening to him when he was telling me about writers on the storm. All right yeah. I just woke up in the ceremonial. Gm Lamp Yeah Yeah famous DJ so cow probably came et and then Kahlo S. I don't I don't remember I think it was L. O. S. and then he moved to wasn't K. K. Roy was K rock for a while Anyway he was like he. He was our biggest span. The doors were his thing and he loved deep purple on stuff but He loves the doors and You never got to meet Jim. Unfortunately but but he was our our biggest fan and still is he. He plays doors more than anybody. What's what's your do you have a favorite door song. Oh Gosh not really Lately lately it's been L. A. Woman and Do you ever find yourself listening to the doors Now because I play the stuff so much why. If you're the only reason I listened to it and say wait a minute. How did I do that guitar? Part on such and such so I'll go back and check it out. Does it feel like it was just a different life. I mean does it now feels like it was just yesterday because I said I played the stuff so much still that even though I didn't play it for twenty five years The minute I started back up again. That was Pretty much nonstop The I guess we're coming to the end here. I should tell people once again. The ritual begins at sundown. Is the Al. Mets got bumped a little bit. But it's full hours. Going to be out are available on one of my paintings. Oh got to see that. I didn't know you're an artist Available August fourteenth. And you can get that Apple Music spotify. Google play Amazon Youtube and all that vinyl some. Oh It's beautiful. I didn't know you painted. Yeah Yeah do you want to see some of my painting soup to go to art for 'cause where we sell some of my paintings for charities I shall so Art For 'cause DOT COM or dot org or dot are thinking it's dot org. I can't remember it'll come up. Disrobing can a Robbie this has been a very interesting to somebody who just sort of knew the doors from You know five miles away. I just watched you guys was love. Your music had to mature into the doors. I must say I didn't know I was a big doors guy when I was like in high school but as I got older I started to mature into your favorite in high school. Well I had a you know. I had a weird relationship with music because I liked guys like Graham Parker and John Hiatt and The pretenders in bands like that when I was in high school a little less of the REO speedwagon against and led Zeppelin's. And I I was a little less of the pop mainstream rock and a little more. I didn't know anyone else was listening to Graham Parker. John Hiatt when I was when I was you know. Fifteen or sixteen. Or even like an Elvis Costello. What Guitar Sixty Les Paul Summers? Wow these around. What's that guitar worth? I would hate to say but it's gotTa be you know. At least a quarter million is the sound of it. Can you really tell the difference in the sound I can but Yeah it's not much. It's not really the sound that much is the just the way it's built. And the the flaming a maple so beautiful. It's such a work of art work of our play a lick if we can I'll tell you it doesn't have to be you. Don't need to play anything from the doors. Cadillac just play a lick and I'll see how fast I can get it right then have no idea what. Song Asa jails silence which play something from the seeds all right. Yeah I WANNA see me up. Listen doors on the website or the doors website. I'm starting to do little Qatar lessons. All right yeah. So we put out Moonlight drive. I think came out today and Have roadhouse blues on their do a couple more of those late next week? Play a plant. Play a couple of play a couple of doors rifts. I sell fast. I can get them up to love me two times. There was one I was just playing and you get. This is a twentieth century. God what's Right Twentieth Century Fox? All right try few more. How fast I can get. This roadhouse blues and one in five five and one say we're not all hung out whatever man let's see Wallis back doorman back door man. Is it back door man? Yeah all right one more. WanNa go out on top here. That's one eight five five. What is that? I've two one five to one. Is that five to one. Yeah Yeah must have damn I did one and five one more one more and more out on. I'm running out of ideas. You guys had twenty five exchange of Lover Maddening. We're going out on top. Thanks Robby Krieger. That was a real real treat for me it talking to you can do again soon this going to be on tomorrow. Yup Okay listen and enjoy. I hit Lifelock lifelock break on through. Come on cut you. Make them up for me touch. Did Jim hate touch me? Like eat thought the movie not actually the before Sorry for was touch me. It was hit me. Oh really yeah today. I wrote the song about a game of blackjack you know where you go hit me. Hit and right now while the he thought people might take them up on it and hit him a onstage or something to right that touch me actually was better anyway. Hor great horns in that fight. Arrange UNCH YEAH. We so was it. Is it sort of accurate to say? You could write the pop songs. And they wrote the esoteric songs you could say I mean. Most of the had the radio songs were mind. But you know I wrote some Esoteric one student. What was your most Esotique? Eric Dourson well. Actually there's one called. Yes the river knows which is about watering I write about. Air Earth Air Water. So that's a waterson and that was on the Morrison Hotel Album and that is actually on my new album of instrumental version of that. He has now. We'll go out and check that out all right. I will bid you adieu a thank you for joining us and I will hit Lifelock here before you WanNa see my studio putdown robby for one. Second there Lifelock beware of fake products out there phony stock deals fabricated emails tax social media posts playing off the corona virus fears steal your money. They steal your information. Protect yourself with lifelock scammers could ask for donations for potential. Victims are always trying to steal your identity identity. Thieves are getting smarter all the time. Protect yourself especially during taxis and when they're so much private information out there being exchange. Good thing there's lifelock which detects a wide range of identity threats like your social security number for sale on the Dark Web Right. Dawson not prevent all identity theft or monitor all transactions at all businesses. Lifelock can see th regiment on your own join now and save up to twenty five percent offers your call one eight hundred live loggerhead to lifelock dot com use. Promo Code Adam. That's Promo Code. Adamant LIFELOCK DOT COM for up to twenty percents off. Hey Robby thanks Thanks for the tour and thanks for the fun today united. We'll talk soon. Thank you all right. You can go to Adam. Corolla DOT COM. Oh it's me and Look at Well we got with books coming out. You can preorder that. Go to Youtube Page and look at some of the stuff that stand up. Is there as well a lot of the unprepared stuff at YouTube dot com slash Adam Corolla and until next time this is An Corolla for Gene Ball and Robby Krieger. Sand Mahala Volley Kerr show on twitter. At Adam girl is show followers on twitter at Adam. Corolla meal at eight six three four one seven four four we sure and watch this broadcast at YouTube dot com slash Adam Corolla and get everything you needed Adam. Pool DOT COM.
Let It Roll: The Jim Morrison Biography That Kicked Off The Doors Revival
"Welcome to let it. Roll the podcast about how popular music happens. Hosted by Nate Wilcox followed the lead role. Podcast on twitter at let it roll cast and check out our website at let it roll podcast. Dot Com. Let it roll as a pen podcasts. And you can listen to all the other great Pantheon podcasts at. Www DOT pantheon. Podcasts DOT COM TODAY. Nate welcomes fellow. Podcasters Shelly Sorenson and Christian Swain of the Rock and roll librarian to discuss one of the first bestselling rock biographies no one here gets out alive which titillated millions with its insider's account of the rise and fall of Jim Morrison and the doors pop in those ear buds in enjoy. I'm your host Nate Wilcox and today I've got the distinct pleasure been joined by two of my colleagues in the Pantheon podcasting network. We've got the rock and Roll Librarian. Shelly Sorenson in Christian Swain the major Domo of the whole network and the rocket archaeologist. Welcome thank state and today we're GonNa talk about a classic of Rock Literature. No one here gets out alive by Jerry. Hopkins and Danny sugarman bother. Were deceased so. This is a perfect way to cover a real cornerstone of rock music literature. When we don't have the authors to go to so thanks so much for coming on and helping us discuss Jim Morrison and the doors. I love that we get to make up whatever we want. Because there's no dispute from the author's well you know some people say that Danny sugarman and Jerry Hopkins did just that is by FIA of their dead former acquaintance in tournaments case former client. But we'll get to that at the end. Let's just jump right in there. I mean this is a biography of a Jim Morrison Came out in nineteen eighty two. I believe about eleven years after he died was an enormous bestseller. I mean this was an the racks at the airports at seven. Elevens this was a trade paperback. It had a picture of Jim. Morrison not from nineteen sixty seven shirtless and beautiful. Just immortal at triggered rolling stone cover story said he's hot. He sexy he's dead. And kind of triggered the whole sixties revival that was a big pop culture factor in the eighties. What was it about mid sixties? La that made it such a great place to launch a rock career shelley. Well you know at that time. An La was big of course a big TV and movie capital and was increasingly becoming news capitol as well and at that time in nineteen sixty four Jim Started Jim. Morrison started studies at the UCLA film school and this was what they called the professors called the Golden Age of film at Ucla and and in Los Angeles the Faculty included top directors. And the students included the no other note none other than Francis Ford Coppola. So Jim was right there. You know in the middle of the burgeoning film industry at the time and on the weekends he went to Venice. Beach which had been a Mecca for the beat generation in the fifties and still to this day not even in the eighties but now still has kind of Bohemian tradition. So it was a you know a right kind of time for all these different movies. Tv music to kind of counter you know interest fertilized. That's a a word probably not And you know I think it was just A. He was in the right place at the right time. Kind of thing Chris Well I agree with you I I might add. There's been many Golden Ages in Hollywood Specifically in the the early nineteen sixties You know there was a a the the French new wave was was definitely in bogue A lot of experimentalism Was going on both in film and in Music very of and You Know Jim And his Ucla compatriots Including Ray Kurzweil Were in in in those kind of a boundary pushing concepts and ideas as far as L. A. I think he hit the nail on the head At least in America Wild New York's considered the media capital Certainly at that time You know La is where the entertainment business will was really still ground zero in in in in maintained that ever since and so to to be able to take literally The British invasion and digest it and And then create a response Naturally it seems said. L. A. was a fitting place for that in the mid sixties. Yeah and you had the birds and love On the sunset strip the bird. You know with Columbia records big in sixty five and then love. Kinda ruled the scene on the streets for the next couple of years. And that's the band that Jim Morrison wanted to emulate. Their whole goal is to be as big as love. So Yeah Arthur Lee and company Yeah In the you know there were others. that that didn't quite make it but You know by then the I think. The troubadour was around Obviously the whisky a go go had switched from a dinner. A supper club as they used to call them. to Something more kin to what we recognize today. The whiskey Beena you know a real rock and roll club. Yeah it's interesting. Go ahead so oh one of the things. I thought was interesting about how the book described when Jim Lived Near the La Strip and the whiskey ago. Elektra records is that he could. He had everything there within walking distance. You know that he it would centro to the bar and club scene and and he lived with his girlfriend in Laurel Canyon and so he he just You know physically everything. Was there where he needed it. I think it was clear that lived Robby Krieger that guitar lived in Laurel Canyon. I think Jim stated basically flop house motels that will within walking from and it's an his girlfriend's apartment. I thought that was. Yeah Canyon but I guess it was near to the strips. Pamela Courson yes. He might have been in Laurel Canyon at one point a web tracking that super closely. What was what was it about the America that was ready for Jim Morrison. What was going on in that point. That's a big question. There were there were so much going on in the sixties experimentation with with LSD and marijuana the whole sexual liberation And I think one thing that Jim and the door is really You know well Jim was. Kinda the quintessential person to to to you know. Experience the generation gap which was huge than he not only denied as parents ideas than value. Later on he denied he said they were dead. He said you know denied that they even existed and And then also He read was very well read and he his favorite book was. Jack Kerouac Nama Rosa Road and that was like the beat generation and it was published in fifty seven. So all the kids you know at that time in the sixties where reading that Reading that book and when Jan lived kind of briefly and Sam in Alameda near San Francisco he came in to the city and you know frequented city lights bookshop and read all the beat poetry and a furling getty and Ginsburg or favorites of his. So this was all kind of going into the whole Revolution of the sixties. That he was you know pretty much at the forefront of I think well let's let's face it You know postwar World is dominated by America. Because we're the last man standing In our culture was Was a were the victors You know we were hardly touched By the atrocities of Ah for years or lost six years of war I and You know we benefited from From being the APEX culture And then we began to export that culture of notably of films and music And You know by the time you get into the mid nineteen sixties You know America is a dominant Technological Player and You know obviously You know capitalism is In a battle of pitched battle with communism There is a lot of Of fear and uncertainty because of the bomb And the fact that You know the the idea that you know humanity had to contemplate that its entire existence could be wiped out in a about a thirty minute period. And I think that began to weigh on Some of these I You know as we know Jim. A comes from a military family is. His Dad was Rear Admiral in Pacific Fleet At the time was actually inconsequentially involved in the Gulf of Tonkin affair and You know as far as GM his Being a little bit different than than Some of his contemporaries You know rock and roll was Fairly relegated to Subject matter of girls in cars in its early Incarnation The original pioneers. And then you know. I think it'd be fair to say that Bob Dylan and a few others Began to that and Lyrical content began To become a deeper and exploratory and I think Jim took it in a very very dark Way I I. I like to think of him as You know the the real Prince of darkness To Take that title away from Some of the heavy metal Guys notably Ozzy Osbourne Because I think he's the one that really invented Shock Rock on a pop scale on a grand scale You know the the medium. A of choice At that time was. Am radio there was no FM radio. I and AM radio Played whatever was a hit Black White Rock pop country Folk it didn't matter a one after another and I think that these guys Along with the you know the far. Fisa Raymond's Eric Keyboard sound created a sonic a difference. out there that The the kids really gravitated to Elektra. Records was right there in l. a. too and they just had a trial run with love. They'd put out two albums to reasonable success for abandoned refuse to leave L. A. Essentially And so they couldn't go to that Sullivan show etc etc and weren't doing national tours but Elektra had introduced themselves at the rock market as a as a middling player they already pretty. Well established bulk player. So you know it was perfect. They they they had a really aggressive approach to the marketing. Put in giant billboards over the sunset strip with Morrison's very pretty face on it and the time Tom was perfect. It was also interesting because it was the last window. When the Teeny bopper magazines like sixteen and Tiger beat where essentially the only rock press in America? And so you've got this artists that you now consider alternative or underground and within just a couple of years. He would have been considered that you know the doors would be the kind of band it would only be on FM radio. That would only put out albums that you might not even see their faces or much less there leather clad bodies but instead of Jim Morrison doing these spreads he's fashion spreads. You know looking at sexiest. I'll get out and driving the little girls wild. Let's hear the first song that Jim Morrison Sang for Ray Manzarek. Who was a classmate of his at the UCLA film school and and was a practicing professional semi pro musician. And Jim had no musical experience. They bumped into each other and the beach and Jim saying some of the words to moonlight. Draw through the through the And you know our face. The Moon Line drive which appeared on the door second album I can remember. I think it's strange days. Always WANNA call it. People are strange. Which was the hit single off that album bud and listening to that song. It's perfectly good door song. But it's not one lyrically that blows to wipe it. Blu Ray man's rockaway and and you know they were. They were often running but shelley the book I I remember. I was a kid a seventh grader. Reading a totally impressionable and I would not let my son read this book but what what am I remember just being horrified at what a I just thought he was the jerk of all time. What did you feel about? Jim Morrison from the way the book tells US Slice Story. Well You know I actually Mo- most I know about new about Jim. Morrison before I read this book was the Oliver Stone movie that was I guess was based on this book. Right and I wasn't doors fan and I you know I didn't buy doors albums. I was Let's see I was born in fifty seven so you know I remember being in junior high school and hearing their music but I I wasn't you know I wasn't attracted to them As band or him as a musician And this book purports to you. Know it's it tells all about basically you know that. He was an alcoholic from the time he was a teenager and I think you know it's very worse and all about is about his drug and alcohol use about his treatment of his friends about his treatment of women So he you know I don't think it Helped me feel more kindly toward Jim Morrison? Even though the writers say they described him. You know his more sensitive side and as a poet visionary and All you know somebody that is very important to the rock and roll. Music scene I it didn't kind of changed my mind about him. You know as a person kind of being so selfish self centered you know alcoholic and So I don't know his his upbringing. Was you know he was raised by these very conservative parents as Christian was saying his father was in the military and his mother was the perfect military mother. You know and wife could. They moved frequently and she kept house. And you know they weren't abused or you know anything like that. But Jim was totally a excessive person even as a child and kind of torture to siblings. And I love being way and then you know and then was nice to them and you know really did extreme dangerous things so You Know I. I don't think it was the rock and roll lifestyle that that that turned him into an alcoholic. Like like you might have seen on the star is born or something like that Yeah and and I think that You know he I don't know he just rejected his parents out and out. I Just because he was a symbol of authority. I think By the time he was you know he had moved out of the house. You'd bear. He didn't even speak to them again. He would tell you that They were dead right and that was on the first liner notes of the first record that had no currents they were dead You know personally I I I Of course Christian knows my story but I I Sympathize more with his mother than I do with him as a mother of a of an alcoholic. Who reject you know their family? I think it's just a very painful. I don't yeah anyway so I didn't come away from the book with kind of a a better impression of Jim as a person but maybe more respect for him As a as a poet lyricist I would say that's my well not Jim. Jim's obviously a complicated man He childish manipulative And you know interested intensely on The the darker aspects of of life and And obviously Had demons that He couldn't work out and you know self medicated himself to death but as as a good artist he was able to Tap into that and present that In a public manner That connected with a with a large audience and exposed Some of these feelings which I don't think had been really Explored in popular music up until that time. Yeah absolutely and one thing that struck me reread in forty years after I read it. The first time was the importance of his theatrical and film background at and also how intellectually who is of all the musicians united research couple years of doing this project the only one an education comparable is bing crosby who went to a Catholic law school and read all the great philosophers. Jim Morrison is an incredibly well educated person who read all this philosophy and I took himself a little bit too seriously but I think also unique and innovative in that he was self consciously analyzing the rock scene and he had been a fan of Elvis Presley as a kid but he wasn't. He wasn't a greasy haired rocker. He was not somebody who is a singer from day. One and out in the clubs and you know seeing it and he wasn't a folksinger like Jerry Garcia the birds. Are you know? He wasn't playing in Latin Bar Vincent moby grape. I mean he was he was an intellectual. He was film student and pretty bad film student. It seems like like he walked out of Ucla completely but really understood something about how to manipulate. Crowds like Assorted forgave him for his band sister. Manipulative jerk with everybody. He knew when I realized that became his art. That was what he was doing. He was just experimenting with this idea of Control and he clearly had awesome powers in that direction and that kind of is I think what bit him in the ass I mean he got everything he wanted so fast with the doors you know. They quickly succeeding on the club circuit in La quickly signed to a label. There's a you know brief delay getting a hit single their first single flops. By their second one is a monster and boom you know. He's all his dreams of having a platform for watched. The pontificate of manipulate audiences comes true. And then it's like wow. Was that worth. Be careful what you wish for absolutely but said a little bit about the other members of the band like what you've felt about damage personalities in the way they're presented in the book. Yeah I mean Oh I thought it was very interesting the way they all met. You already talked about how he met Ray in In the film school. And then you know on the beach and ray just went well. That's the best. Those are the greatest fucking song lyrics. I've ever heard let's start a rock and roll band. Make a million dollars and and You know quickly ray discovered Jim nobody. Nobody else discovered Jim. Ray Discovered Jim and said you wanna be in our band in the band that he was in already and Jim said I don't play anything and he said just just hold the guitar you know on stage. And that's how he got his his start on stage but one of the things I thought was interesting. Was that John. Dense more The Drummer Ray met in his meditation class and then John Introduced Robby. Krieger to them who he had met in his meditation. Class Liberal meditators Which I thought was really interesting for rock musicians and Jim never never no no. They weren't others. Were meditators which was probably the only way they could put up with him And you know they and they were all musicians and played a variety of music. Johnson dense more played jazz drumming and in college and Ray Krieger Plates go via an folk blues will Mingo And Flamingo for incoming flank. I dictated my notes. John Water out here. And and in fact he played bottleneck guitar so nicely that Jim wanted him to play. Kind of exclusively bottleneck on most of his first songs And so they were you know actual musicians and Yeah I thought that was really interesting. That That they were all meditators. Yes a very late. Sixties thing to be doing in the mid sixties. They're all kind of headed their time. There yeah yeah I know remember detailing. Yeah yeah that way ahead of its time for that sort of thing we are. You guys are in the land of fruits and nuts here because belcher born and raised in. California me true. It's like the cult villains in every Raymond Chandler novel. There's always come on now. I did learn to meditate in junior high school. I went to a kind of a hippy. School Yeah we transcendental meditation. That was yeah I think. S Lon was up and running by sixty five to four you know and by then Alberton leary had been kicked out of Harvard and were looking for someplace to go. I think they were mostly Mexico at that particular moment but By you know by sixty four sixty five You know can key see has gone through the M. K. Ultra experiments performed by the CIA and discovered that this This little drug that they were handing out Was really cool without the CIA and You know started stealing some from the the pharmacists At the The mental institution. He was working at and researching is upcoming book. One flew over the CUCKOO's nest and then started handed out to His buddies Mostly musician friends. Who then they started to share it with their musician. Friends and so by by sixty five Sixty six Yeah the the world is turned on its head For those who have Indulged in the experiment of from a Mr Albert Hoffman. Let's let me jump in and another song. This is a breakfast and Vile Alabama song which is a completely crazy song for rock band to cover. Nineteen sixty seven. It was a cabaret show tune from decadent. Orlando in the nineteen twenties The radical communists creator of the alien nation affecting all these intellectual theories so the doors have been detained for pretentious covering this button. I think they managed to so it into their of pretty nicely. This is the Alabama. So don't ask why show to be we. Don't next whiskey. We must be. We must And that was Jim Morrison and the doors saying Brecht Involves Alabama Song which I mean must've blown minds in the sixties and muskets. Like I know I had no idea who breakfast vile were Until I heard this song and read rolling stone panning the doors for being pretentious for covering it and that led me off on a whole voyage of discovery. And I'm sure lots of people. I don't think you need to go to the name of the band you know taken from Aldous Huxley's the doors of Perception Is evidence enough of Some sort of pretentiousness. Absolutely have a question for you guys. So but It's certainly in in Germany. It wasn't called the Alabama Song Right. I mean I didn't know that about that song that it was a breast Tune called the Alabama Song. I believe it was called Alabama Song I should have. I seen it up before. Kristen you now I can. I can pull up really quick. But it's part of the threepenny opera and Alabama had world rod infamous reputation as a slave capital So I'm sure it was not and I think it was. It was Just a well known I think it was just a commentary on on America. It's also called Alabama. I think oh I see okay. Another whiskey bar. Yeah Yeah that was translated. Show me the way to the next Whiskey. And it was actually. It was from the play. Little Mahogany not the threepenny opera translated by the English lyrics were written by Elizabeth Hopton in nineteen twenty five So yeah I mean they were just into crazy weird stuff. We began as the German poem and and translated by their purposes. But they were they were like that movie cabaret basically it was. It was the whole decade and Weimar Republic thing and and I found when I went back and listened to the whole doors catalog. I thought held up pretty well especially compared to their the Jefferson Airplane and the grateful dead and other California bands from sixty classes sixty seven. You know I think and I think rolling stone infamously in eighties just hated the doors. I think they gave the first album three stars and everything else less and then you know by the by the time. Yeah Dave Marsh of all people who you know as quoted in the early seventies praising some of their albums in the book turn pretty viciously on him. I think influenced by Robert Chris. Cow My friend Edward. His still hates the doors but you know by the nineties edition the Rolling Stone Record Guide. They've thrown in the towel. Declared them one of the three opoku California bands of the sixties along with the beach boys in the grateful dead and yeah to me like when ads starts descend the doors. I just say well you know. Patti Smith IGGY pop that they were pretty big deal more about what they thought than. What about Iraq critics thought? Yeah well at somebody who was born in San Francisco grew up in L. A. and lived in San Francisco in the bay area for over forty years I think As far as California goes there you know there was a and the kind of music that was going on and I just to tell you Kind of a personal anecdote. My husband who's older than me and eighteen. Seventeen eighteen in San Francisco in nineteen sixty seven. When I told him I was covering the doors on this podcast. She said you know in in San Francisco had no one liked the doors. He said they heard a light my fire and he knew instantly it would be a hit but he didn't he didn't like it and none of his friends liked it and they were all into you know what seeing Hendricks and Janice Joplin and Mike Bloomfield. And you know and the grateful dead at the fillmore and you know it was like a very different aesthetic Certainly than the doors and and you know he said whereas Hendrix with a musical genius. They just thought that Morrison was a drunk singer. You know and I know that's not on cabaret singer. Yeah and that's obviously not all of San Francisco. Because when they came to San Francisco they were very well received. You know at the Phil. Mahre by by by the public learn. Yeah Yeah but let let me jump in here and just say Oh there's a huge difference In the mid sixties between the L. A. Musicians and that sound versus the San Francisco. A sound There's a reason why the Free speech is at Berkeley hated the fucking hippies Because they wouldn't get up there as do anything worthwhile and from the hippies perspective they were like no man You know we. We want to explore everything And you know most famously Encapsulated by you know the music of the grateful dead which you know as they grew you know it was a it was experimental You know it was open It was loose whereas you know L. AAC. Even was was a professional organization. Fact you know most of the bands that we think of out of La had some form of studio players on them You know most famously recognized now. As the wrecking crew Including the doors You know they didn't have a bass player and when they needed a bass player they pulled in some of those great Studio cats Down in southern California so there was a level of professionalism that really existed down in l. a. That did not exist in La. I in San Francisco and there was a real separation between those two camps at that particular moment now of course You know this all begins to Gel and and become You know looking back at history It seems like you know while there's this California moment but there were two very distinct camps at the time. Yeah it's interesting. His interactions You know he talked about him. Seeing the Jefferson Airplane and and not liking them later on and talks about him hanging out with Janice Joplin rally being abusive and awful to her. Which was exactly the kind of thing she was drawn to. You know they were peas in a pod. She's looking to be right humiliated and abused and his slugging it out. So those two right you know. Of course Baldo chemical makes any also there. There's a mention of him seen Hendrix. I can't remember where and and you know crawling up to the stage and grabbing Hendrix by the knees ankles do not to suffocate himself to the Hendrick. So you know. They're they're definitely yeah the Currents and rivalries San Francisco and I think that the fact that Rolling Stone magazine was in San Francisco. Just sort of how does it now and in an and they definitely flew that in rolling stone. If you're familiar with the history of the editorial practices were very partisan. They love John Lennon and Yoko the hated Paul McCartney they love the grateful dead then so much like the doors although they turned on the de too. But you know this thing about Morrison isn't manipulator and and in a obviously manipulated as audiences but at the beginning he was very skillful manipulator of the press but then then he changes in the way you know he he behaves toward the press and sort of self sabotage is. Do you think that was just a function of him being to alcoholic to do his job or was that sort of a philosophical switch when he become disillusioned with the machinery of success and starter? I would say. Disillusion is definitely a factor You know coupled with massive self-medication You have no patience You know when you've been asked the same question hundreds of times right and I. Yeah I think I think the manipulating the press was hard work. I mean you have to really think about it and you had to come up. You Know He. He came up with great quotes. And and you know Really defined his image in the press by you know coming out with these lengthy so things like think of us as erotic politicians that was one of his quotes And he you know like you said he was really into being photographed to you know or you know for code and jewelry and cut his hair like Alexander. The great and I thought it was interesting. That in junior college he took a class on collective behavior. Which was the psychology of crowds? And he he learned how to trying to tell his friends how interesting that was an how they could you know. Look at a crowd and make love to it and cure it and make it riot and his friends all thought he was not but obviously that was something he used to great effect in his public performances to and let me Japan and key the neck song then will return to that and talk about how he manipulated crowds basically to destroy his career. But let's I hear Love Street. And this is the spoken word bridge of the song so it can hear Jim Morrison. The poet backed by rock band. There's Love Street doors. There's this store where the creatures me wonder what they do and the summer Sundae and a year. I guess I like it fine so far. That was Love Street by Jim. Morrison and the doors and listen to. I mean he's taking a lot of critical brackets bricks and brackets for for being pretentious and a quote bad poet and everything but to me. When I listened to that it holds a comparable to like Allen Ginsberg guests in with the clash or something I really hear the influence of the beats and it doesn't it to me. It doesn't ruin the song at all or the record. It fits right in something. Like horse latitudes or celebration of the lizards a little different especially when celebration lizard goes on for ten minutes on the live album but not too bad but let me let you get back to what you're talking about shelly. And and the whole way told Tale of how he instigated deliberately attempted to instigate a riot in Miami and what the fallout. That was right. He you know. He wanted to hit an tell the other band members. She was going to do this but he really wanted to You know expose himself and see what would happen if he did that. And you know and then the story goes back and forth. Did he really exposed himself or did he just make it look like he did and one of the reasons he did that was that he didn't like the you know he was getting tired of the adulation that he was getting this crowd mentality that he had actually created but then he realized it was going too far and he couldn't just be himself and be a poet and he wanted to put a stop to it so he really purposely sabotaged His I don't know his I can't stay reword his career by doing that and then of course you got you know. charges pressed against him for indecent exposure. Trial went on for a really long time and he was banned by many Venues you know to play. And when they when they let him come back and play when they let the doors come back and play they had to put up huge amounts of money. As bond you know to encase the concert was cancelled or or interrupted by the police or something like that or in case she did something else scenes so yeah he he he really did you know Grind their career You know of course it came back up slowly but surely and to great degree but He really put a pause on their career there for a while by doing that. Well I think The some of the output wasn't a stellar as well I also think You know Music Trends Were changing rapidly There was some catch up in that Let's face it as we said at the top. You Know Jim wasn't a trained musician or You know took an interest in what that professional lifestyle is and what it means and You know a nate. You said You know the rise to stardom was so fast that It's it's very easy to see You know a a rejection of that especially for someone who you know And and if I can you know Jim was not born. You know a a Greek God. he was actually Rather Averaging in a little Chubby Through his elementary school years it needed and blossom until His College Age And started to get attention for his attractiveness And his Outgoing nub of personality manipulative. Or what have you But he was in always did consider himself a writer and desire to be a poet and that lifestyle is one of the internal not the not the external right. Yeah absolutely and that was one of my sympathetic things. I thought that the authors did in the book that they pointed out he did walk. It like you talk that. He did buy a mansion. He didn't by plane. He you know he never had big cars that basically he never had anything beyond a week's worth of clothes six pack of beer and a handful of books at any given time he would be floated from you know these flop house motels to various girlfriends apartment. And you know he's living basically the Charles Bukowski lifestyle this with the Rockstar. But he wasn't materialistic. Yeah in fact. I like how I in the beginning. A At least. The addition I had one reviewer describes him Not The cliches of rise and fall of corruption by wealth and fame but a sudden burning out of a volatile spoiled gifted intelligent artistic individual. So he he you know like like I said before he wasn't Ruined by fame like so many other rock and roll musicians like you know how they're they're kind of okay but then they get turned by their By their fame you know to to excess and wasting of money and getting attached at and all that stuff And and getting addicted to drugs and alcohol. That was that was the way he was. He was already addicted to drugs and alcohol and he wasn't. He wasn't attracted by by wealth and materialism at all it was attracted by art. And and I agree with you that that is one that is one. A Rick Redeeming feature of Jim Morrison for me. We'll let me let me add something to that shelly. Great Point That you know as Morrison Becomes more confident on and they grow As an act it gyms concept which was different than the other three a was to inject more. Let's call performance art Into live shows And try to take them into You know some of festival of Dyonisis Or what have you To to get the audience to you know get out of themselves and experience You know a a true art happening at the time and also had the whole you know you talk about the drop in quality of the of their albums. And it's very clear that third and fourth album you know are not as great as the first and second or their last two and his attempt to record this celebration of the Lizard Suite which knows a ten minute. Plus full album longside Concept OF OF SUITE OF POEMS SET TO MUSIC. It was very ahead of its time. It looks it. He's aiming to do something that the prog rockers should be doing you know and and and just a few years. But they couldn't pull it off and it. Kinda reminds me of Pete. Townsend's life Allied House plus to be this whole a multimedia movie concept thing and it implodes but they managed to salvage the songs and create their masterpiece. Who'S NEXT FOR THE DOORS? They kind of had to stumble along without you know. They didn't have the book of songs that the Salvation Lizard does not several great rock songs. You know it was. It was a suite. That was either GonNa work as a whole or not work at all. They did manage to perform it. Live but they're they're comeback sort of it's driven by robby especially Robbie. I think robbery. Krieger is a way under praised performer and songwriter He wrote agree light my fire and right. Lohan asks his first song. Yeah and so. Many of their pop hits You know don't you love her madly etc etc. He's the pop songwriter. But Jim songwriting grows too. So you know. They're a great team with Robbie writing the AM single hit. And then Jim coming up with stuff like L. A. Woman which is a long form song that does work in Iraq context so they were able to respond to you know the innovations of led Zeppelin and the band and everything with last two albums that come back and really you know. Put down a marker for the doors as a as a serious quality hard rock band and and one back a lot of the critics at least at the time and let's go ahead and here one of those songs. Let's hear peace frog which has got music by robby? Krieger and lyrics by Jim. Morrison route back on Peace Frog for Morrison Hotel which many people saw as a comeback album and attempt by the doors to reestablish their rot credibility. And I have to say. I don't generally get into rock criticism because it's not the point of this show but I have to say I think it holds up very well with the material put out by their peers at the time and I recently saw David crosby getting on twitter and dissing the doors and maybe WanNa slap his face. Like how dare you? You could not touch them on their best semi crosby. Did what crosby did with the birds in crosby stills Nash which is great you know invading folk rock and invented you know soft rock and all that but he never was a credible hard rocker and the doors. I think I think really were. I mean how do you guys write them like? Do you think they hold up? I mean the whole idea of. He's redeemed because of his commitment to art if he's a charlatan in a fake. That's there's nothing redemptive about that. But if if you think you may some to lasting gonNA this redemptive what he'd think right. I know I agree. I I think I don't think he's a charlatan and a fake at all And I think the songs hold up and I I find him credibly authentic. Go ahead shelley. Oh I was just GonNa say Peace Frog is one of my favorites but actually out the base actually has the baseline on it. Which I I'm always attracted to good baseline and maybe and I was telling Christian before we went on air. That may one reason that I wasn't particularly like moved by the doors music When I was a teenager because I didn't hear a lot of being On the records. I've I've just. In retrospect I'm thinking that that may be one of the things but yeah I yeah I think I think the music I mean you know. I don't recognize the titles of the songs and so when I went back to listen to a lot of like oh I know all of these I mean I know I. I'm familiar with all of the songs. Even though I never had a doors album I never owned doors. That open right there. Yeah yeah definitely. What were you gonNa say Christian? Oh just to add on to You know they're worth and they're they're influence to later works You know You know I I think certainly at the time you know they you know were the darkest ban Before there really were you know dark bands of which came on the horizon. I mean you know. Blacks out doesn't even show up till nineteen seventy and In in as we know now you know they're They're imagery and motifs. Were you know based on fantasy on hammer horror films? You know this. This was about You know selling a comic book version of of themselves And you know Morrison was everything that you've got You know most of it not great but some of its sublime and You know You know he's I find him one of the most authentic characters to ever come out of rock and roll. Yeah and I think one of the best ways to measure the power of a musical artist by their influence and the fact that essentially all hard rock singers going forward are either going to be influenced by the Golden Boy Robert Plant or the Prince of darkness. Jim Morrison and you get the call. Glenn Dancing of the misfits and dancing and etc etc his iggy pop based his basically his whole act on Jim Morrison and for somebody because Agee as seen as as punk and Jim is classic rock there. People miss that connection. But it's a direct absolutely chain and hand off but let's talk about the book before we wrap up. What do you guys think about the book? I mean it's very salacious. It goes out of its way to mention the him but fucking groupies. Excuse the terminology. But that's why they talk about you know and then go ahead. Write a song called back door man while they covered right. I'm sorry governor and presumably how wolf is talking about knocking on a girl's back door while her husband's way. But you know regardless that the with Jim had in mind. It's clearly not and it's it's very salacious book. I mean it's almost it's clearly written. It's full of pictures. I mean it's a great trade paperback. It's right up there with like Vince. Bugliosi's helter skelter as far as lurid portrait. Savell a the late sixties. But I mean do you feel like they went over the line and they were unfair to the artists or is this just the perfect way to summarize a pop phenomenon? You know as a librarian. I know a little something about biographies and This one reminded me of The fact that You know I was a children's librarian for a long time and we started Consciously WEEDING OUT BOOKS BIOGRAPHIES. That were fictionalized. In the way this book is so the way it's written it makes it more salacious than if it were just written in a more of a nonfiction style. Because they take they take interviews with people but they weave them in as quotes about a lot of the book is dialogue that either quote kind of quoted from People's interviews but not attributed so it makes it. If you weren't like a savvy reader you would be like. Oh yeah this. This actually happened this way. These people had this exact conversation. Which you know can't possibly be true unless it was recorded you know that. The person was in the room when the conversation happened. Because this is one person's telling of how the conversation went which obviously you know tinted and the way that person remembers it and that I think that adds like fifty percent to the salaciousness as you say of the book that it it reads like a novel really more than than a non fiction factual you know biography or remember. Jerry Hopkins had Written The book or manuscript Years before and had tried to get it published In was unsuccessful at it until he brought Danny sugarman to add Quite a bit of the Salaciousness First person type of accounts and to Shelley's point you know As we know memory is somewhat fallible and especially after a decade or a or so Where you know you you you begin to Mythology is your past and You know You know let's face it By by by this time You Know Morrison is a mythological creature and Sugarman S- memories are probably couched in clouded in those Those those external our responses coming to him You know And of course you know. Y- you know I think the Book Pa Proves the point in that Jerry Hopkins tried to get this sold? Nobody would sell it until they turned it into something more salacious palatable to You know a buying public And sure enough. It did the trick. Didn't it had sounded like reading the National Enquirer? I mean especially to the point of Danny sugarman memories. He was a teenager. Went along top. And right you know so like if I told you like dialogue that happened from when I was a teenager. How like how accurate would that be? So this is yeah. This is more like a like a magazine. Article Danny working with the doors when he was twelve right. That's crazy and so many scenes happened in the offices of the doors. And it's clearly. That's where he's interactive with Jim Novel up so I imagine you're twelve and Morrison is your body. What what the fuck would that be like? No even that's even weirder than reading this biography when you're twelve isn't being part of the biography twelve much much winner. Yes yeah yeah so so. There's some questions there but I mean I think to me. Ultimately it's a net positive for Jim in the doors because it it's a minute direction star. It did didn't it? Yeah there's that obviously gained the attention of Of Oliver Stone. Who went onto to make a film about? them which is also You know a debated On on there it's a good thing or bad thing But just like jam and and again I I I keep going back to to the fact that that Morrison himself was a complicated person He think of his upbringing with a rising star in the United States Navy At the time and You know The conservative family and those values and then the rejection of that To the point where where you are tried to eliminate the the history of your association with that family so I mean that tells you. I think all you need to know where to begin with WHO. This cat was and You know and he comes about right as this new you know Popular Art form is Beginning to really takeover the entertainment Airwaves and presents himself as the the dark Elvis Presley so I mean at all it all make sense to me. Yeah and as timing was so brilliant. I think it's very telling that that thing that triggered his cutting off communication with his parents was a letter. They wrote criticizing his concept of becoming a singer based on the fact that he never evinced any musical talent whatsoever which is totally reasonable thing for here to say but he was so confident what he was doing. It was just not going to Brooke and criticism as as a failed musician myself. I see. That's the difference between a successful musician. Failure is somebody who's like you know damn the torpedoes full speed ahead. I'm not going to hear any negativity. I'm going to associate with people that support my vision and I'm going to go for it and you know fuck you and the scene when his mom and younger brother do go to one of their concerts and he makes a point of screaming the lyrics of the end which other? I WanNa fuck you right in her face. I mean that had been completely shattering for her. I mean what would it awful thing to do and that she at that and that she even wanted to see him after that I mean she like tried to see him with his little brother and toe and he evaded her and he got everyone in the hotel and the concert. Venue to say. No gyms over there. No gyms over there and protect him from this horrible woman that had come to see him. You know in performance and withstood that that that situation happening to her and she still wanted to see her son and he never saw her again after that. Yeah it's very sad and to me it just reinforces you know this kind of success but commercially and critically comes at a high price and let me let me add that. A look I I. I don't think that a a singular letter Stating that Maybe you shouldn't go down this career path of would clause a quite a reaction. There had to have been a whole lot of shit behind that To get to this. Maybe maybe that was the straw that broke the camel's back but I think The The divorce to His immediate family was probably deeper than than than just A question his His ability as as a musician. The other thing that I might add is nate like like you I I i. I interviewed a lot of of rockstars and To your point Yeah I've heard over and over again that you know when you get right down to it. There was no plan B. I mean that's what you have to do to to be able to make their. There is only plan. A and plan. B. Is being homeless unless you make the Lenin school economics if you start off Not Yeah no plan. B. and also the Decides not brooking criticism and going with people that support. You is being able to withstand great discomfort and you know and not knowing what the future holds and not having any security that that stands out for me and all the biographies I've read is not carrying out security. Which is why I was never musician. You know let let's say let's say that that this this this is Anthony Mathu Anathema excuse me anathema to to the previous generation Who had had had to go through things like the Great Depression and World War Two You know and now here comes this generation of of of Americans who just given the middle finger to that whole world. That that those people you know quote unquote created. You know you know the the Corporate Society in the Organization Man and what have you You know they just said No. We don't have to live this way and I reject that And to the point of no I reject you as a person and knowing one. Cu anymore so there's a lot going on with with the the the interactions with his family that tells us a lot about who morrison was professor. I feel like we've covered the story of Jim. Morrison and the doors Christian Shelley. Thanks so much for coming on. You can listen to these guys on the Rock and Roll Librarian and rock and roll Archeology sorry for my pronunciation. They're both on the Pantheon podcast network which let it roll is proud to be a member of so thanks for coming on the show guys. Glad to have you. Yeah and thanks for having us on your show Follow the lead role podcast on twitter at letter all cast and check out our website at let it roll. Podcasts DOT COM. Nate will be back next week with the host of the T. CB cast to discuss Peter Guralnick's classic biography last train to Memphis the rise of Elvis Presley. Let it roll is a pentium podcast. You can listen to all the other. Great Pantheon podcasts at. Www DOT PANTHEON PODCASTS DOT com? No one here gets out. Alive is published by Warner Books. Please support our show by ordering via the Amazon referral link on our website. Let it roll. Podcast DOT COM Hey everybody this. Is Brian Respond? Host of the podcast side gems which is now a proud member of the Pantheon. Family of PODCASTS. I've been a freelance entertainment journalist for twenty five years now and I often end up in conversations that go off on tangents suddenly discussing someone's outside passion or hobby something you didn't know about and leads to revelations about their character and about their life outside of their art. I've often had to cut those details out because the story had district word count for specific focus so here the entire focus of the podcast is just on their side. Jam Or side jammed for example. Alison Chance Frontman William. Divall spent some time talking to me about reading history which led him into talking about his public school education and how it was so terrible in highschool that actually managed to get into a private school for free to his life could take a different course in this series of podcast. You're going to be hearing my interviews with musicians of all different backgrounds genres talking about everything from surfing to collecting antiques to stargazing. I hope you enjoy side jams. Please tune in regularly and have a lot of interesting guests in store for you.
Rock and Roll Librarian: No One Here Gets Out Alive - The Biography of Jim Morrison
"Kick out the jams motherfuckers. This is Wayne Kramer from EMC. Five a year listening to rock and roll archaeology. Hey everyone this is shelley the rock and Roll Librarian. Tell you about an attractive offer. From Adam and Eve many of us are homebound anxious and bored at this time and could use some toys to spice up our lives. Adam and Eve dot com. Is there for you and your intimate partner? Go to their website. Select almost anyone item for fifty percents off and received ten free gifts plus free shipping with the Code Rock Lib. That's our OC K. L. I. B. At Adam and Eve dot com. Have Fun as there. A Library Bookstore on your kid. Rock and roll read. A story needs to be a lot of rollers walks into quiet everybody. Welcome to another edition of the rock and Roll Librarian With me Christian Swain. The Rock and roll archaeologist. Here is the one the only the world heavyweight champion actually much more heavy much more lightweight. I guess well world lightweight champion middleweight. You mean they may be Bantam. May Be back in the World Bantamweight Champion of rock and Roll Librarians. Shelly Sorenson. Hey how you doing? I coach somebody now. Yeah well you should have about some smack in you do some W. w. e. smack. I'm sorry you can't do that. That's why I'm a lightweight. Oh yeah okay all right. We don't want you to get too far out of your comfort zone. Yeah all right so this is kind of a bit of a continuation for something that we started with another Pantheon. Podcast host. Let it rolls. Nate Wilcox Shelley and I were on. Nate's show here to talk about Well Celli tell us what we talked about. We talked about this book. I have here in front of me which I'm going to dive into much deeper today. That's right it's called. No one here gets out alive which I always want to say. No one gets out of here alive so I have a problem with the title already. Anyway you don't like the poetic license of Doan here here gets out alive lows much better. It's the biography of Jim. Morrison the doors as told by his young plucky. Assistant Danny sugarman. Yes and a rolling stone writer Jerry Hopkins who brought the credibility in the bud. Typing chops his typist. No I don't think he'd appreciate that. I know But you know what I mean. So yeah him in Danny together Dan. Danny's a firsthand experiences of Working from the doors from a very young age And seeing all of the rock and roll mayhem In disturbances in just plain wacky doodle craziness that occurred with. Mr Morrison in his Short twenty-seven years on this planet Yeah and when you say young than and people know that day at Twelve Oh us twelve twelve when he started working for them opening fan mail. Yeah I wish I could get that job and I don't think I would have been a safe job for me anyway. Yeah so you know. It's certainly an interestingly written book I would say yeah And we will dive into it but let's Let's give everybody a flavor of Mr Morrison and of course You know The band the doors At consisting of robby. Krieger Guitar John. Dinsmore on drums. And the man who needs no introduction the backbone of the the act of Raymond Ceric yes. That's how you say his name by the way man's Rick Manzarek. Yeah okay. Yeah or man's Eric. I guess some people but I always I. I was always taught. It was man's Eric. I'd like to hear him. Say it though. Well that's not gonNA happen. 'cause he's dead. Yeah I'm sure I could find something on Youtube pure young. Well what what is it that to me? That's always the test is how do you of course go right? So let's get into it and start with a song. Just one's pretty well known it may not be their most famous and we'll get to those in a bit but it definitely Puts them on the map from the first album. Led US here little love back door man by the doors We're back a well if rock and roll is in its essence opposed to be primal and emotional. Think you're getting that from the opening notes. That song and the lyrics to kind of I mean yeah. Wasn't there some talk about what the lyrics mean. Exactly I mean in blues would mean a back door. Mail me about the guy who comes to the back door when the husband is gone you know that is the sexual kind of us. Yeah Anal Sex. Yes that Two is You know part of the charm of that saw back charming charming. Yeah Librarian Right. So but yeah yeah you can interpret it Either way but yes Originally you know an old blues tune being that It is that when the when the husband's away the player comes in the back door. Yeah Yeah Yeah. Yeah all right. So let's start at the beginning. Yeah I think a lot of people probably now that Jim was born into a military family. His father was a career naval officer and his mother was the perfect military wife And they moved around a lot of course because that's what Military brats you know that your life. He had a younger brother and sister. He had an early show of resentment toward authority. I think his character was pretty well from the beginning. You know that he had some issues that maybe these days we might have sent him to family therapy about. But that's not what happened. And when I read about how he treated his younger brother. And and you know that he was like at one point loving and And fine and on the other end of the spectrum kind of a torturer and teaser and played pranks on his brother and kind of you know terrified him. I suppose. That's what a lot of older brothers do but So what sounds a little bipolar to me? Yeah and I think that's a theme that goes through. This book is like yes he was a. you know. We'll get into that more but he was. You know a risk taker and You know love danger and he took a lot of drugs and he was an alcoholic but on the other hand he could be kind and gentle and loving and generous. And all that so well you could also You know with a bottle Jack. Walk Half Naked Down Hollywood Boulevard Yellen the N. Word so luckily after and he continued that way throughout school. He was a big tease he. He subjected his friends and girlfriends to sometimes bitter and cruel jokes stunts but he was still popular people gravitated towards him and he was very smart and very well read. He read a lot of poetry and I think that's also well known that he was extremely intelligent and he also liked what they called in that day race records and Blues and spirituals and beat Knicks. Jack Works On the road one of his favorite books touchdown yeah and he lived in the bay area for the San Francisco Bay area for a little while when his family moved here and Probably Alameda? Yeah and came into the city and frequented city lights bookshop and you know loved all that kind of stuff and then he attended junior college in Florida for a little while when his his family lived there and One thing that I find interesting about his classes that he took in college he took a class on collective behavior which was included the psychology of crowds which later helped him in his performing so he was in talking to classmates at that time he said I can look at a crowd. We can cure it. We can make love to it. We can make it riot so as early as you know eight age eighteen. He was already thinking about that. Kind of thing You know how to control people in an audience basically and then the kind of big deal started when he got into film school at Ucla. Sixty Four. That's where he meets. Ray Yes he meets Ray. There Ray is also a film student and it was during what they call now. Call the Golden Age so there were top directors. You know this is Los Angeles. This is like Hollywood nearby and they have one of the students was Francis. Ford Coppola for example. Yeah experimentalism was just starting to come to Hollywood You know the French and Italians have been doing it for a decade before that. But I know Jim especially was interested in in the experimental type of filmmaking and to your point some of these Ah Tours that you know have become household names like Francis Ford Coppola George. Lucas obviously From UC UC and several others. That were in had click. You know all were coming of age At the same time. Yeah though apparently he was even more experimental than other people you know in his class and that were around that time because for his His final or his project. He had a film a film that was questioning the film process itself. A film about a film. A montage of abstract and loosely connected events and he was given a complimentary de apparently. It wasn't really appreciated by the teachers and he was hurt by the rejection and almost didn't graduate. He left school right before graduation but what's talked back into graduating by a teacher. You know who said no you come on your this close finish it. Yeah you got two more weeks. Let's but he never. He never went back to get his diploma. Yeah and Yeah when he met Ray Ramos actor was the last known actual address Jim Ever had was There on the dorms of UCLA in Westwood must. Yeah so he meets. He meets Ray at that time and ray was in a band already called Rick and the Ravens in Santa Monica and his band had been hired to backup sunny and share at a high school. Graduation dance dry thought was very funny. And one of the members quit suddenly an in the contract. It said that they had to have six people on stage. So gyms first time on stage. I guess he said Jim. You gotta be in our band. Be THERE AT SIX THIRTY. We just need a body. Yeah and he said but I don't play anything ray and race it. That's okay all you have to stand there and hold an electric guitar. We won't even plug it in some of us. Wish we could do our debut you get paid in Hollywood guy Fake it till you make it right. That wasn't like really the beginning of their musical career together. Now came apart famously Hooked up again one day In advertently in the beaches of Venice ran which was where Jim moved to after after he got out of school. And did I think you know a lot of couch surfing? But he began to write when he was in Venice he created in a burst of enlightenment more material in less time than he ever would again and Jim says those first five or six songs I wrote. I was just taking notes about a fantastic rock concert that was going on inside my head. I love that idea. You when you hear how people write songs You know everybody has a different story about how they access the Muse for example. Yeah I mean I guess he just like had this fantasy life inside his head and so that was in nineteen sixty five and he wrote the words to hello. I love you about a girl. He saw on the beach and also soul kitchen dedicated to a small soul food restaurant near the Venice Arcade which they were inspired by ordinary events but had interesting twists like common themes and visions of death and insanity. And so let's listen to hello. I love you pop fodder remember that one being visions of death and insanity in it but you know Hello. I love believe funeral pyres. Oh yeah that's right. Our level become tire. Yeah there you go so yeah you know. It's it sounds like a cute song in. You're like oh he's just sees this girly. It's cute on the beach and then he's in love with her. I remember being an elementary school in thinking like that was really really funny line. Hello I love you. Won't you tell me Your name? I just thought that was hysterical. And you know. And that's part of the dichotomy of the doors is you know. Sometimes the music is seems light and airy and And then you know lyrically you dive in and go. Oh all right. So let's let's play a little of Hello Comma. I love you I love you. Won't you tell me pin down game? I love you. Won't you tell me jump in? Walk down the line where you can't there's no bass guitar on the track it's strictly Ray In his left hand Doing Doing the baselines that just blows me away. I don't understand how you can have a band without a base. But they did. They did well some of the songs. Yeah yes they Quite a few have actual bass players most famously Carol Kaye and others Jerry Chef Yeah was another one that did lost up for them So but Yeah I mean the thought was Well we don't need an add another Person Because Ray can handle the base with his left hand. Special working Well that people use them all the time now but Columbia. I think provided him with a an instrument at the time that was possibly newish. That had really good based on it so he just like okay do that. Yeah Yeah and you know. Did it create a little bit of a unique Sonic Palette For the doors and between that and dens Moore's jazz influences in his drumming and Kruger's Lament Coats Style Guitar That would show up every once in a while. These guys are way better than a lot of people. Give him credit for it. There's there's there's a lot of snobbery when it comes to the doors of which I don't understand a lot of people just equate the doors with Jim Morrison. Yeah Yeah and don't listen to what's going on behind it while I think Jim is deserving as well for what he was able to convey I mean to me. He's really the first real dark character in rock and roll and unlike others that come. Afterwards like Alice Cooper You know Marilyn Manson everybody in between You know this was really authentic. I I think this was really his psychology coming out as a character. Yeah so but But yeah cool song to to kind of show the beginnings of the doors. They're yeah and speaking of Ray and playing the bass with his left hand They hooked up again on the beach of Venice. And so when during that encounter? Jim told Ray that he'd been writing songs. Any started singing and Acapella of version of the first verse from Moonlight Drive. And Ray said those are the greatest fucking song lyrics I've ever heard. Let's start a rock and roll band and make a million dollars in gyms. That's what I had in mind all along. Yeah I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure what What you just read out of. The book is Word for word in the dollar stone movie of From the both Raanana gyms meeting there on the sands of Venice. Yeah I remember seeing that movie and just coming away and pretty much. Utter Disgust But oh really. Yeah I mean because the author of I think as Jerry Hopkins at the end of the book says you know that after the book came out a lot of people wanted to make a movie and Oliver Stone got the rights and that is depiction of Morrison was mainly only as the alcohol extremist. The drug SCHLUB. Yeah and then infuse it with any of the balancing kind of human aspects of gym. I mean that makes sense to me. Then I had this impression of Jim Morrison all these years as a boob. I mean I don't have much better impression of him now. But you know that's okay. I mean a disclaimer. I've never been doors fan but I've been a huge doors fan. I mean they were. They were pretty Central to my upbringing When it comes to music so all right let's play a little bit of Mnay DR Through the ADS TURN SLEEP. Stew know our well first of all that guitar on. That is really cool. I like that. I what I read was when Robbie. Krieger joined the band. He played bottleneck guitar as in addition to Flamenco and all the different styles that he learned Jim was so enamored of his bottleneck that he wanted him to play on all of the songs but of course he didn't do that. One boy do that again but anyway. I really liked that. Interestingly I just want to add one more thing that this was this song was on the first Set of Demos. They ever recorded before even lobby. And Jim I mean in John Were in the band recorded this with raise. Brothers and as a demo in it didn't go anywhere. Oh Yeah uh-huh interesting. Well let's let's also talk about the lyrics on their which impressed Ray so much you know. Let's swim to the Moon? Let's climb through the tide. Penetrate the evening that the city sleeps to hide. Let's swim out tonight love. It's our turn to try parked beside the ocean on our moonlight. Drive Pretty fucking good. I I don't think I ever like really heard the lyrics and I heard that song. Well now you have. That's thank you and a poetry reading. Yes because I know how much you like poetry with music behind it. I guess you know I was named after a poet and I still not really big into poetry. So weren't you yeah I believe the author of Frankenstein's husband? That's right Mary. Shelley's husband is actually the poet. Your name for it is true. I am Mr. Shelly Mr Percy Percy. Bish all right. Let's get back to this yes okay so At at this time he started doing everything he could think of to alter his consciousness and open the doors of perception. I know what's coming now being break on through to the other side. Take the highway to the end of the night. Visit Weird scenes inside the Gold Mine and ride the snake. He started gobbling acid and he wrote his family to tell them he was in a group and seeing his father was stunned and wrote a letter of strong objection in. Jim Never wrote his again yet. There probably wasn't a good idea Admiral Yeah I give them a little bit of support But yes so. He's doing all these things to kind of expand his consciousness and they finally get a house band Gig at a small club on the sunset strip less than fifty yards from the whisky a Gogo and the first night. No one showed up so that was a good place for them to get used to performing even though when Jim was not a natural no and and he apparently had a weak voice to start with he just needed his confidence and he would present his back to the audience who was very shy. Hard to imagine speaking from experience Yeah yeah it takes a little bit to get out there and open yourself up to the ANSA. Yeah it really does. I would think about that. Do it seems kind of natural. Yeah Yeah They were near the whiskey ago and they used to go down during breaks in their act and go to the whiskey ago and watch the headliners. They had great aspirations to be as big as the band love. Oh yeah which was very popular in those days Right Arthur. Right and they expanded their repertoire. just as they were being fired at the other club called the London fog they were asked to fill in at the whisky for Somebody that didn't show up or something and the woman who was the booker at the whisky really liked them and ask them to come back for a couple of months. They were fired at least once a week which I liked And Jim was already bringing drugs on stage. He was already getting really drunk. He was already like not showing up because he was too drunk to You know to perform But by this time they started playing the song the end at first very nicely written song about faded love which became eventually something quite different as we know that in performance art fashion you know he started embellishing on the song and it became one of the most provocative and shocking songs that they ever did. Now I still one of the most shocking things right ever ever put the vinyl Famously used in Apocalypse now and others Have employed that I believe it is like an eight minute song if I remember right No I'm sorry it's almost twelve minute song And we can't play the whole thing but obviously we should probably play the Most shocking part of it when you think. I think that's a good idea that's prepare the audience. It's based on the EOPLE apple. Myth please please. Yes go ahead. Oh that's all you WANNA do it. People I think a lot of people know what happens. but maybe they don't But I don't know if we can play the whole thing we tell them about it afterwards though. Okay okay. So here is The important part of the end it went into the room where sister live paid a visit to his brother. Walked on down your yes I want to kill you true yeah. He had a complicated relationship with his mother. I remember the first. I remember the first time I heard that song and I probably heard a bunch of times before I sussed out the lyrics here and was like Oh shit yeah okay I'm not sure what to do with that information now so it was It was I mean think about that. This is nineteen sixty seven. That's amazing that they could get away with us now. Of course there's really wasn't a radio cut. It was way too long for that at that time but once fan got a hold of it. Oh yeah they played the whole thing and You know he. He hid the The offending word. Yes yeah pretty. Well listen to and I was like you know you're like oh I guess you saying that I mean but obviously he was and Interestingly at the whisky a go go you often you know like I said he couldn't show up for a sad because he was too drunk and ray woods sing the songs instead and on the night that he only made the second set. That's when he stretched this song to include those words. I don't think the other band members knew what he was gonNA do. You know they were just like. Oh what's happening? Now is totally out of our control and we just need to keep on playing. You know this was the song that propelled him into pop mythology Yeah and they yeah. They were banned from performing at the whisky after that. Oh again highlighted in the Oliver Stone movie of them performing this and then you know getting thrown out to buy some beefy club. Honor looking dude Because of that but at the same time you know the cats from electro in the audience and so they mean race. Snap THEM UP. Yeah I was going to say unluckily. They were banned from performing at the whisky. But they got a record contract and The producer was hall Rothschild and produce their first album which was called the doors and they were able to get a similar sound to that of playing at the whiskey. The name taken directly from Aldous Huxley Adores Reception. Right and they got their first gig in New York City at that time The writers say all the top groupies came And somebody did a lot of promotion for them. You know to try like spread. The word like the booking person at the whisky got a fourteen year old girl for example to call her girlfriends and ask them to call the whiskey to ask when the doors would be back. You know just to hype them up and kind of make them more desirable. I was going to say one table. Okay that's not a word So I think they did this similar thing in New York City. You know it's like Oh this lead singer is like really hot and you know all the girls should come and see this band so their first single with Elektra on the first album was break on through and they had to edit the She get high to. What is it on the record? She get she gets they. Don't actually ever say hi. Kinda says he in the same way that he kinda hides fuck yeah he heights high But I I didn't. I didn't know that was an issue on the record. I know it's an issue when they perform at Sullivan right of which he was told not to. He agreed not to and he pulled this Castelo. Yeah he well he just looked right in the camera and just went for it. No hiding But yeah break on through. That's a great song so can have to play a little. Yeah let's play. I like the onto Guys are nine ninety nine today. Do the old which case dog tragedy. It's so it's a little garage you know sounding but you know it's got those you the vocal where where it's it's over driven a little bit and it's it's it's probably pagan the needles. Just just a little bit. Give it this really raggedy rough quality to it and And then there's you know great work by dense more great work by Krieger Obviously Manzarek is awesome. It's just you know I can see why even though there's probably better song on that album to be a single which ended up being giant hit I can see why they picked that one to be the first single off the yes. The doors wanted to make light my fire. Yeah that's that's the obvious choice while they did end up doing radio so but But yeah I mean. That's the obvious choices. Light my fire which does become a massive Hit An overnight sensation If you will I and a Panda. You know famously. By Robert Robby. Krieger and the first song he ever wrote that. Wow imagine that your first song you ever wrote. That would be pretty cool. Yeah cool yeah so I think we need to play a little of that. What what are you sure? Here's light my fire. It would be untrue. Would be before was to say girl. We couldn't get much higher. I just don't hesitate. Oh that's where the funeral pyre line is and I'm sure there are a million podcast listeners. Out there right now. Yes we've been saying that for fifteen minutes yes I write it I got it I got it. Yes yes it was light. My fire with the funeral pyre. Obviously that makes sense doesn't it? Yes because it rhymes right right in anyway. Great stuff totally opposite song than you get with Break on through It's it's kind of blue is like Yeah they're a beautiful woven woven lines By by the band in there Yeah I I mean it just says hit all over it. Yep It in on this Well Th- The funny thing is my My husband lived in. San Francisco is eighteen in sixty seven and he said he knew instantly. When you heard it on the radio that it would it would be a hit. But he and none of his friends like the doors so the they do talk in this book about the Rift between San Francisco and San Francisco. La kind of sensibility aesthetic. We we talked a lot about that. Yeah the Rock and rock podcast. That You know L. A. is far more professionalized And rightfully so You know that's where you went to if you had the goods Were San Francisco was a homegrown organic Sort of music scene for good and bad you know obviously there's Some interesting things that came out of San Francisco but really you know the music business is based in La. And I picked the doors Birds Buffalo Springfield The airplane Quicksilver MESSENGER and certainly the dead in nineteen sixty seven And again. I'm probably have a bunch of podcasts. Our listeners going what you're look good you know cards and letters or or or more. Welcome Yeah there definitely was a rift between the two Cultural Centers of the the Golden State. yeah on this the first album. This swear Jim kind of set in stone. His image that he lived with me in the Lizard King long after an even to this day because they didn't like the BIOS and liner notes on most albums so he created a multi page manifesto for the album that included some of his most imaginative catch phrases as the author say defining and limiting the Jim Morris image long. It's interesting that they use the word limiting because I think that he did feel limited after the first couple of albums. It's like oh I have to continue this mythical and legendary image. You know that people expect of me. And that was one of the things he struggled with O. Onnor and he's not the only one This is a common problem with With the music industries. You know they they put you in a box that categorize you ties you and then they stick you in a been In a record store in. That's where you're expected to stay And you know it doesn't invite a experimentalism In even ever ocean. Yeah which is which is sad. I obviously that we've gotten away from some of that today and But you know certainly at this time these cats were rebelling against you. Know the the Organization man in the corporatists structure and things like that but You Know Jim in many ways a he could have just done it and instead he just kinda railed against it And continued with the the process Almost all the way up to the end. I mean you know the escape to Paris was specifically to try to get away from this This character that Had taken over His existence. Yeah like you said. He railed against that. He railed against this image. But I mean he'd been railing against things you know his parents and the establishment. You know really all his life in fact in this fact sheet for this album. He said that his parents were dead which they are and yeah and so he was kind of like engaging in the especially with the edible lyrics of the end. You know the European me of the generation gap that he was really diving head first into or maybe that was just his life and the generation gap kind of affixed to him because he lived it and You know it's the Hippie era there's you know complete and utter rejection of the normal. American lifestyle and this is all being invented You know there's you know people just making it up for good or bad and You know In some things just didn't work out very well. So yeah so. We're coming ONTO THEIR SECOND ALBUM. Which is called strange days and one of the interesting Speaking of bucking trends was the song horse latitudes which was basically music and sound sound effects put to his apoel that he had written in high school. So this seems like a lot like performance are to me. All of the members of the doors played musical instruments. Toback the song in unusual ways plucking the strings of piano for instance and used a lot of strange sound effects against the background while he shouted out the lines of his poem. Jim You know thought of himself poet. I as I'm not sure how successful He was or even would've been if he took that on his vocation but as a lyricist You know for pop music You know I think he did pretty good so all right. Let's listen to a bit of this With just a bit. I just a bit in the Mouth Horse Latitudes when the still sea conspires and her Sahlin and aborted. Charan's read Chinese monsters. True sailing is dead. An instant and the trust love this green. That is not my g. I find it quite obnoxious. I'm just like that's not me. I just I don't find it aesthetically pleasing in any way. I don't think it's supposed to be aesthetically disturbed. I think it is disturbing now now. Look I will say and I'll read the lyrics here very brief but I mean if this is what he's writing in high school it's not too bad when the still sea conspires an armor and her sullen and aborted currents breed. Tiny monsters. True sailing is dead. Awkward instant and the first animal is jettisoned. Legs furiously pumping there stiff. Green Gallop and heads Bob. Up Poise delicate pause consent in Mute Nostril. Agony carefully refined and seal over so for a high school poem. Shy couldn't have done that you. Roses are red. Oh do so. You're not impressed now I am. I'm impressed I just. I actually don't really like it but that's okay. Well I it because it's disturbing. Yeah I I'm not really poetry person. Yeah it just. It did kind of remind me of a granted. It's over the top it certainly from this perspective at the time it You know I don't know it just sounds like a Charlton Heston model in some sort in San don't but the imagery is very pretty intense. Horses pumping their legs under the C. N. Yeah especially if you know the point is to try to get a rise. Outta people and into shock and surprise them this showing up You know in the middle of the album. A kind of makes you pause and go. Wpf You'd think I like that. Oh it's time okay. Okay moving on one that I like. A little better is people are strange which is also on this album and you know it just shows that He has a wide range. You know you don't think of Jim Morrison as being kind of socially anxious. But that's what the song is about and probably more about when you're on drugs. You know that people seem kind of menacing. 'cause we've been there. I've been there when I've taken certain drugs. You know that the world seems kind of you know evil but you know. It's I think it's really interesting that he that he wrote something like this because most of his songs are not about insecurity even though we've pretty much established that he was a rather insecure With himself probably bipolar As time goes on Depression also is a factor. Well okay Let's listen to gyms looking at himself and those around him. People are strange Faces look a run year low. We'll mincing might run your own street. Sloan evening down when you'll stray skull now when you stray one new strain a stray bureaus as other say in this section of the book this was an amazing array of world for nineteen sixty seven when everyone else seemed to be singing about incense and peppermint Mama lead skies. So yeah I mean you know. There's a lot of range like I said. Emotional and lyrical range on on this record. Yeah and again. You know to comment on that The rivalry between La and San Francisco. You know the doors are not to be a pop Sensations like the association or Some of those other Concocted bands For to sell pop hits they are trying to dig deep here and You know the song fits in with that. I think You can also make the case that When you're strange is You know when you are on Hallucinogens. Yeah so there are some layers going outside. Certain drugs can make you see the world a different kind of menacing And you know the the media loved him. At this time he gave great interviews and quotes and the Writers Writing About Him. He was he made them enjoy it. Oh that and let's face it easy in a package that You know the second coming of Alexander. The great he had his hair cut exactly like that and he loved the photographers to any love. Trying on costumes and posing and like that was really fun and interesting and they knew that and they liked it was always interesting to interview him and photograph him and he was using also his crowd Collective behavior things he learned in his junior college class. He was you know really milking the audience having long silences and and waiting and waiting. And letting the Leading the contention build and then coming back with a with a big bang and something really unusual. He says just when they're about to crack let him go. So he's really consciously working on his his stage act and his effect on on the crowds. Yeah what was that? Classy took social psychology. Yeah Yeah Yeah. Yeah and So back at the back at the ranch in his his natal family his brother his younger brother had been listening. The song light my fire for weeks before he knew that it was his brother's singing. His friend had to show him the album and like he had heard it on the radio and then a friend had the album and he saw his brother's picture on the album cover And his father of course we know it's thought that is totally straight list laced character and thought that this was just horrible thing that his son was doing His mother contacted him and said you know come home. We want to see you and don't forget to get your haircut. I you know how your father feels about. This and and Jim said to the person that took the phone call. Like don't ever put a call through from my mother again like this is just totally like a different world. And he's living right now he can't. It's like this that I'm not your little baby boy And they came his mother and brother came to see him at one of his shows and he purposely sang the end to shock his mother. That's right and then yeah and then she wanted to try to in a long time since I read that book. Yeah she wanted to try to see him and she kept trying to get through to him and he was telling everybody around him to keep her away from him and so she came out like to a different city to see him play and he just evaded her the whole time. Oh my God like a knife to the heart for a mother. Oh I can but don't treat your mother's that way. Yeah depends on what's going on but sure I get it. I don't think you know what I read about. Child is not like no anything. No but you know let's face it You know He was a wild child and You know being born to what eventually becomes a rear admiral Those are two very different worlds. Yeah they were not suited to be. There were not a good fit as parents child. Yeah and now remember. This is nineteen sixty seven still and we're having you know antiwar movement. It's the beginnings of the Antiwar Movement and the Vietnam is not going well alliance were drawn between us and them. Yep So He started writing more political songs. Probably most well known of this era is the unknown soldier which took its name from a revered natch. National Monument and was worked out on the road and much the same way. The doors had created their earlier songs in concert at the whisky ago. So over over a period of two or three months it developed into one of the band's most successful theater pieces yeah it is definitely a theater and you know it. It includes in the in the stage show of him acting out being shot by a firing squad. so Let's take a listen to them and just let me say it's it's not it's not specifically about Vietnam. It's just you know the the soldiers curse if you will in general In it just happens that You know there. Is this raging war going on that The Youth of America are just not into And are being conscripted into and as we know now It wasn't going good And was and it was about to get worse here so I I think it's a great timely song. to To to make a point in a general point that does work in the context of its times but also outside of it as well so let's hear The unknown soldier wait until the Woo Izzo little. So this show on your own and I think I heard some base yes. They're they're bringing in the basement. Yeah yeah so I like the authors say about this when it starts like a dirge and become suddenly a celebration so yeah it's you know starts out real like serious and and picks up In as as we said you know it's It works in its moment And it works outside of its moment as well I do love the interplay between What Krieger and Manzarek are doing their interweaving Their melody lines with that too. I like to have music to my poetry. Yes so around. This time he's Becoming a mythic drunk. Let's just say he moved. He moved from psychedelics. More before he had been more of a binge drinker and now he's becoming an everyday drinker In fact he and Janice Joplin got drunk together at a party. Minute ended in a brawl with her chasing him out of the House that they were partying and get him getting into a taxi in her like breaking bottles against the taxi but they were friends. This is the way. Yeah Yeah Bam bad drunk friends. Yeah and he. He was living in a ten dollar a room a room in the ULTA Sienna go motel. Which was he had his whole life. Kind of in a one very narrow geographic area. When years let any money wasn't spending his money on houses and cars and race horses. He was just spending his money on bar tabs and fancy clothes and Just shacking out in this motel room and then part of the time with his soulmate girlfriend. Pamela Who ARE PAMELA PAMELA? Courson not Arkansas Though I don't know maybe she did she meet Jim Morrison yes. She did okay because he had many many girlfriends. And you know some serious girlfriends but Pamela was always. She was lying that he returned to. Yeah and so he would stay with her. You know some of the time Everything was there. The doors offices Electra. The club scene the bars the restaurants and so he. That was all in a nice tight package. Oh Mendez. Let's gyms gyms about ready to get into serious. Trouble is what you're telling me. Yes I mean you know. Yeah trouble with all right here. In River City Yeah He. Who's getting bored? Actually by rock stardom in as funny as only two albums in now working on their third album of which unknown soldiers part and He wanted to decided he wanted to return to his poetry and publish his poetry without reference to his rock and roll image so every time he tried to publish poetry he wanted it published under James. Douglas Morrison instead of Jim Morrison So he was still doing that so he began to start to feel some contempt for his fans. He got kind of sick of sensationalism. And the sex Eitel hype and Realized that the whole concept of explorative music and you know theater in poetry was becoming lost on his audience and he just wanted see what kind of control. He did actually have over his fans so he decided to try to provoke a riot and Chicago in sixty eight and he got what he wanted. You know that was kind of like a both a positive and negative things for him because he realized like you know like he could control them they would do what he kind of urge them on to do but on the other hand. That's not what he really meant to do. So I think he was pretty ambivalent during this time and he's also getting self destructive with his drinking he was drinking so much as voice was starting to decline and he actually tried to quit. The doors and Ray talked him into giving a few more months. Which of course there were years. Yeah they are sick of Paul Rotschild as well His yeah. He was Kind of an exacting task master Type of producer Especially with them and they needed that But you know after A few years and Three albums I think they were. Kinda like going Can we just do this ourselves right? Yeah Yeah you know and also I didn't mention this but they were there. Were some people making a documentary of them Which turned into a movie called? I think Feast of Friends was called. Yeah and I've seen pieces of it. I Know Jim Jim. His his Mustang or are featured in it. Yeah yeah these guys that were doing. There were three guys That were doing the filming and they became good friends. 'cause they were there all the time and they drank together and had adventures but when he was watching some of the footage he saw part of a New York concert which bordered on a riot and he saw the police heaving teenagers bodily back into the audience and he realized that he hadn't actually had any control over the situation like he thought he was just a puppet of allied forces only vaguely understood he said so whereas in the one point he felt like Oh. I caused a riot and I meant to. I have all this control. He realized that there were other forces at work and he had actually less control that he was being kind of. Egged on to be this person that would do that. And he didn't want other people to have control over him so he decided to do something to kind of end. Debt and Well before consciously or UH consciously that he decided when they went to Miami Miami well bef- before they went to Miami. He saw this a blonde card theater group called Living Theater. And in this performance the actors kind of Went to the very legal limit of nudity and a lot of people were doing that. Yeah and he decided that was very interesting so he decided in. Miami didn't tell the other members of the band that he was going to do this. He started taunting the audience. Calling them idiots at telling people to come up and give him some love and and The ban was trying to carry on at that time. This is when at all. When you didn't have internal security. You had the local copyright as secure. The cops were there right and of course they saw everything you know. There's a lot of controversy about what actually happened. He did intend to go to the legal limit. But he's very limit. Poland your sh long now and he would. He was actually didn't usually wear underwear but on this night. He was wearing boxer shorts and his leather piss according to the authors. His plan was take his pants off though. I don't you know boxer shorts. I don't know somehow I can't see him in boxer shorts so you know they seem so like tame His handler. You know jumped on. Ray Tried to get you know Jim to stop. He looked like he was GonNa Take Dick out and and then his handler came on and tried to get him from pulling open his pants and he Apparently he either did show his penis or he didn't. I'm sorry said the word parent everybody in the band. Where's he did not right but they got people to say I mean the. The concert ended fine. There was a there was no riot and there was no I mean. A bunch of people jumped on the stage but then the police cleared it out and it was fine. But in the meantime there was a young man who agreed to serve as a complainant against Jim for lewd and lascivious behavior and such was the climate at that time I guess especially in Florida where the orange juice queen was. What was her name again? Bryan Bryan. Yeah Yeah I don't think she was part of this. You know that was the was Jim Wasn't gay. So that wasn't wasn't taking up. Oh yes she was. She was strictly focused on gay penises. That's right yeah probably gay astles as well. Yeah not that gays are assholes but an asshole that is gay is my point and she really spent a lot of her time and effort focused on those two NATOMA. Yes Yeah Yeah. Really important work yeah. Wouldn't you agree? Yes totally luck. I thought she was disgustingly gross. I still do. That's our one minute of the okay. So so this man. Young man claimed that Jim did quote lewdly analysts seriously exposed. His Penis placed his hands upon his penis and shook it and further. The said defendant did simulate the excess masturbation upon himself. I don't know and oral copulation upon another unquote okay. The next day. This was smeared on the front pages all over the country and in less than three weeks. What was happening in Miami was endangering the future of the group and now the group was banned. Nearly everywhere about twenty-five booked gigs were cancelled and radio. Stations in several cities began removing the doors whether it was true and playlists that sell reactionary for the first time in the doors career. The media turned against them. Oh and that. Miami trial was drawn out Over one or two years it seemed like forever. I think to them. And when they did get booked they had to put down a monetary guarantee. Yeah ironically around this time even though it was recorded before that incident. Oh there's a hot tub released around which is a traditional love song written by Robbie and another million selling single and but even though it did that well and it sold so many records the prophets were mostly spent on lawyers legal cough. Yeah right all right so touch me baby. Okay told them all. Come on. Come on see that I prayed? What was that promise that you see? What was that Brown today? Know GonNa well probably the most highly produced single of their career You know with the strings and all of that just A A lovely song when you get right down to. Yeah I I I remember the day Jim Morrison Died in the reason I do is becoming died. Oh sorry Oh am I getting this story? Alert and I was in Texas was at my uncle's Horse Ranch and one of my other uncles was in playing pool and I walked in and he is. He just played the song over and over and over again. I'm like What's going on? Why are we playing this song over and over again? He goes well because the singer. Jim Morrison died today knows like Oh and I might have even said. Oh how old was he said? Twenty seven and I remember thinking while that's really old. Yeah Oh yeah anyway enough of me. Yeah well Jim Met One of the authors of this book Some time after that incident and Jerry Hopkins who was Rolling Stone Magazine and Jim kind of totally changed his image Around this time you've got fat. I meant as his personality image but yeah I guess. He got a little long You know I'm sure he was coached. Like it's time for you to straighten up and fly right because this is really hurting the band. And it's costing us a lot of money so he also wanted to quit. I don't really give a shit about this. I want to be a poet right. Yeah he did and But you know he had extensive interviews with Jerry Hopkins and Eager to please you know honest serious and you know Jerry. The Rolling Stone printed one of his poems so he was really happy about that And so that was kind of the beginning of their relationship And then they started recording or almost completed the fourth album at this time which was called the soft parade and And it was kind of frustrating Kind of road for this album and Jim only contributed about half of the material so there weren't as many You know that wasn't as much Amazing run you're trying to say it was. I S that they said they. They added additional strings horns by the local studio jazz musicians which further blurred the once. Lucid doors sound so The one that I like from this album is called easy. Ride Is kind of a bluesy. Jim hoped this would be the single and The lyrics are sharp and accessible. But but there's a poetic twist in the last stanza so I don't know if we should. I guess we're going to have to play the last stand here. He always puts in some. You know it's a normal song was a pretty loves Lipsett. We have a weird thing going on here. Yep Yep all right so let's play a little of the soft parade. No excuse me easy. Easy right and And then We'll talk about on the other side Yeah can a Hoedown Yeah Yeah I don't know it's like a new country. Yeah Little Bit rock and Roll Hall. Hey he's young so there was another incident shortly after where he goes to he decides to go to Phoenix to see the rolling stones and take some buddies with him and he and his buddy. Tom Got very drunk even before getting on the plane and they were just fooling around and messing around throwing things at each other and then his friend grabbed one of the stewardesses and by the time they landed the FBI and the police. They're saying that they were charged saying that they were being drunk and disorderly in interfering with the flight of an aircraft so they had to spend the night in jail and they had this another trial that Jim had to show up for. And unfortunately the stewardess mistakenly identified. Jim As the one who grabbed her instead of Tom so his friend. Tom was acquitted. And Jim had to stand trial for groping. The you know the stewardess but the funny thing is like after they went to Phoenix for a pretrial meeting and met up with With these people the stewardesses and the pilot at the hotel bar and they all got drunk together and the stewardess decided to pull her accusation and reverse prior testimony. So got out of that one. But you know as an additional Drain on money resources and on on their reputation and on them gigging and and making music so that Jammie couldn't keep out of trouble Well when you're drunk and board That is a bad concoction. Yeah now they're they're new material The that they were recording and writing would Was actually go on the upswing. This was When they recorded the album Morrison Hotel and they Authors say lyrically. This would be. Jim's best work in years and the other members provided strong support so Peace Frog I know we played this on. Let it roll. But it's like one of my favorite and this is a tune that the band loves so much that they recorded it even when there weren't lyrics but then a poem was discovered in one of Jim's notebooks called abortion stories. I have no idea why and they use nearly all of it for the lyrics. So the coincidence was that the lines from that poem fit the music created by the others very closely so kind of serendipitous But he also added these two lines which apparently were inspired from when he was a child how he witnessed a car accident in Rhode Island crying. Fragile eggshell mind. That's right no I know that one heart. Oh do you okay? Well apparently that he characterizes that as the worst thing that ever happened to him something like that. Well let's hear it. Yeah Peace Frog through to hang down would be the love that Ruggie robby. Krieger opening the Nasty Guitar. Very cool Yeah but yeah. It changes in halfway through the song. He then goes into his little rhumba. Poetry moment where he gives. Well let's let's Prince Song. Yeah well let's bring. Let's bring that back up here. Real quick for the for the folks at home to to listen to to that Indians scattered pleading child fragile election. What did you think your just? It seemed like a different like they should have made a different song. Like do something else with that if my song until you did this. It's the bridge. Brings it down a musically edge. Though she came I love that. Yeah all right. Well he was. A gem was having a lot of stressors in his life. Even though that album did very well it was certified gold and they were the first American hard rock band to achieve five gold albums in a row. He still had these trials upcoming. Also one of his girlfriends were pregnant He had twenty three suits pending money. Pressures were big and he continued drinking through all of it so he started talking at this time about going to Paris Saying that he liked to go there as soon as the Miami court case was settled and so in August nineteen seventy. He went to Miami to stand. Trial finally His lawyer had this great idea of arguing about community standards for you know like we have community standards in the pornography laws for example. And saying that you know the community standards are changing and this isn't really that bizarre what he did. Because that's what kids you know like the social mores are changing. But the courts wouldn't let him bring that into it so basically they had a lot of witnesses on one side saying that he did not expose himself and he said they had a lot of witnesses on the other side saying that they saw something Acknowledge herself this safe. You know I mean to me presumed innocent right so therefore unless you know there's incontrovertible evidence like the photograph says hey that is a circumcised penis. Yeah or maybe answer. I don't know but you get my point point okay. Nfl So what happened was he was found. Innocent OF LEWD. Behavior and public drunkenness. But guilty on the charge of profanity which was missed. Oh Fuck no. Yeah luck yes. The jury was hung on the charge of exposure but eventually found him guilty of it that misdemeanor so he was guilty to misdemeanors and he later. He said of this time. I think I was just fed up with the image that had been created around me. I just put an end to it in one glorious evening the basic message was realized that you're not really ear to listen to a bunch of songs by some good musicians. You're here for something else. Why not admit it and do something about it? So he was sentenced to basically like eight community eight months of no of county jail. And what yes. But you know he never got to that point of you never served us. Yeah and then some probationary time. Eight months for sixty days of hard labor for exposure for profanity and six say day. Yeah and for exposure. He was sent to six months. So yeah so. That's like eight months. My math is correct. Maybe maybe should have not picked the south. Yeah do that San Francisco right right right right. Yeah everyone's got a slap on the wrist. Which is what if anything he should have gotten so all right moving along. We're moving along those before. The end of his life last album with him L. Everyone Yeah mazing songs on that and much of the material had been written long before so it came together very quickly. L. A. Woman which we're going to listen to some of was his despairing salute to Los Angeles City saw is diseased and alienated and in the song as you know are the words Mr Mojo rising keep on rising he was. Let's see what do we call that? An antic nanogram. Jim Morrison. Yeah which I had no idea really Mr Mojo voicing oh well Tinman plays that song so I know that that is an Anagram for Jim Morrison and I actually play that up. You do I think you have? Yeah thank you very much. Thank you thank you Jim. Jim Smiles down me. When I do it I think so. All right so spits on you or something. I don't know shows me. Penis fuck is being se. Sorry let's get to it L. A. Woman. Oh made a window on it will you? Don't know no pity. Hey you're in. La Woman. I am woman right. Maybe was right nearby. You I was born in San Francisco. Maybe he was writing in about painl- yeah of course. Yeah Yeah I think he was. He wrote a lot of Songs about her. Yeah and then Paris city of lights. Oh Yeah right though. He has had yet to move them although not long a long afterwards he did. That's right. Yeah now the other song that was on this. I know that one too. I know where you're going. Riders on the storm ethic rates slower. And it's got all the rain. His brain was slower jazzy or more melodic and generally thought to be more auto biographical but speaking of Paul. I mean you mean a serial killer autobiographical. I am no idea like I like I said. I don't listen to lyrics very much but Anyway Paul Rothschild. Their producer didn't like the new material. He called riders on the storm. Cocktail music. For those fighting words Christian. Yeah cocktail I would say so. It's like to be honest with you. It's one of the greatest keyboard Solos of all time. Yeah so I don't know what to say about that Cocktail music and there's a great great story. It's dark and twisted. Now this is this is good shit. Yeah I maybe he was getting tired of them. He said they should produce. It was the last single. I think Before his passing love her madly was that I think that was afterwards. Oh I think before his passing the that this was the last one. So but Yeah let's let's play at that. We need rain riders on the storm riders on the storm riders on the storm in Canada. Sasser born to this world worth Rome like Darwin and riders on the storm. Ano know just very moody like A. It's in its very cinematic. Yeah works perfectly between You know Ray In gyms of college education I guess. So what do you mean their College Education Film Student? Oh Yeah right cinematic. Oh yeah okay. I gotTA storytelling Spacing OUT HERE. All right images are in your head so now. This is the beginning of the end. Yeah or the end of the beginning of the end writer they they agreed to perform live in. Dallas and New Orleans and Jim was in good spirits and they previewed riders on the storm which we just heard which the audience loved so in Dallas. Everything went really well but in New Orleans what this is what they call a tragedy. The writers called the end and they said that night race saw Jim Spirit go ray said he lost all his energy midway through the sat he hung on the microphone and it just slipped away you could see his spirit leave him and he was drained unquote may be a little revisionist history on. Ray manzarek part Who was known to delvin? Some of that But that was their last girl here. Yeah Yeah and of course hindsight after what is going to occur. Few months later You know you look back and go. Oh Wow oh yeah he just he. He wasn't with it anymore. Man He just you know it was. It was no no no surprise and he died. You know that sort of thing but I think you know we've been talking about this throughout this entire episode. Is that you know. Jim was kind of reluctant. Rockstar and You know I think You know at first. It's all exciting new and You Know Uh and fun And then you know you know you get asked the same fucking questions over and over and over again you know the expectations are del Greater the pressure is greater And you know. He has as a rebellious spirit to begin with. And now he's rebelling against it self medicating we've already established the possibility of psychological issues. You know five. Plus years of this Will wear on just about anybody. Yeah yeah that sounds like Sounds very draining to me. Especially with all the drinking going on his not healthy yet. He was Still working on his he had poetry. Had Film me was working on music the theatre and They were producing this last album Which he told everybody was a blues album and the last song that we're going to play right now is Love her madly which was on that album. L. A. Woman and would be released as their first single and exactly a year and it was much more commercial sounding then the rest of them and got quite good. You know now. Ask the back into the game. Yeah they could've continued on and as we know they did continue on without Jim. unsuccessfully and horribly so There's nothing that that is worthy To come out With with them missing Jim Until retrospectively You know the guys Getting together and doing it as a door's sort of tribute to If you will but Yeah let's play a little of their Their single love her madly. Don't need a what you say don't you love L. A. Okay. Got Something Do you love her madman now. You don't love your man. Do you love for me? I don't have anything to say about love her madly so you don't love her madly no. I don't love her madly. Oh well then who do you love? Manley? I love my husband of course so you love him madly. Yes yes so you would really just change one word and you'd be happy then. I would sing this song. Oh that can be done you know. Yeah oh no. I don't think I'm going to cover any doors song so don't think so. I don't know okay. I suppose people are strange. Maybe you could. Yeah well but get us out of here. There's a happy ending. No there's not what I'm so sorry. They moved to Paris Pamela. Any it was happy when I don't know she's she seemed to. She wrote some revisionist history. They were very happy there But you know he decided he could do everything you needed to do in Paris. And they went there and the doors stayed behind and started working up some new material thinking he was gonna come back and do the lead vocals for it but By July First Nineteen seventy-one. He had become terribly despondent and depressed. He had You know some new drinking buddies and But he was trying to quit drinking and trying to write and his friends and Pamela took him out to dinner. And that they're the story becomes very garbled there different telling about what happened next but by Monday. July Fifth Jim was rumored to be dead but he had been rumored to be dead many times before while he'd been dead two days by then. Yeah so 'cause he dies on July fair yes so the doors heard. The rumor and Bill siddons their manager called Pamela and she answered the phone and told Bill come right over to Paris but didn't say anything else and he left and arrived in Paris on July sixth he was mad at the flat by Pamela. The seal coffin assigned death certificate and the official cause of death was listed as heart attack and by July eight. The coffin was lowered into the ground. So there were you know so then. We were left with all these questions. There's people who still believe. He never died like he just escaped and like changed his identity. But Yeah I remember question is like how did he die because nobody ever saw the body but Pamela? I think he died like Whitney Houston died too. Many too many opioids and slowly sinking the WOK. Yeah I just passed this ad in the bathtub and yeah I mean I mean. That's you know autumn's razor you know. The simplest explanation is used to true so You know I mean you know He. He and Pam were both known drug users. She was a heroin use. Yeah he was not known to use heroin because he had a fear of needles. But there are other ways to In just that truck And we're so. Yeah which you know in the bathtub is not a good idea. So why do people do that? Because they think it's you know it's a comfortable cozy. Yeah but Yeah so I'm sure drugs were involved. I doubt any foul play I know there is talk of the Pam had something to do. I don't believe that I don't think I think it was just a question of You know You know we've seen enough of this Especially in the last several years Recently that you know with with with much better accounting and reporting These days that it probably was as I said A You know an opioid use of some form Barbiturates what have you and Alcohol alcohol obviously and In about the. It's not that hard to kill yourself not sit down because that is the one thing that Pamela stuck with is that she found him in the bathroom. Yeah so so and You know yeah on July third. Nineteen seventy-one You know he was the last of the of the twenty seven. You know that that that crop you know the Jimi Hendrix and Janus had died the year before an October seventy and You know less than a year later now. Jim was gone. You Know Brian Jones and sixty nine In the L. A. Dat. So and there you have it at the end of the sixties Yeah I thought. This book was interesting in that You know like gym class. It's rock and roll book. It's one of those books that if have you WANNA get in dive into To rock and roll history and It's a good one to do It's not you know Obscure it's not heavy. Yeah it's easy to read and one thing I have to point out is one of the reasons it's easy to read and it was so popular is that there's a line of dialogue in it that's gotta be somewhat made up. I mean I've written ten years ten years Laden allies. Yeah biography at ten years later. Yeah and So I had a little problem with you. Know you don't know he said that. And then he said that. And then you said that but it makes it more readable in that way and it's all you know from interviews and people's memories and stuff like that but I thought his life was interesting in the way that it's not that he was a normal person and then he got into stardom and that made him get into drugs and alcohol and stuff and he you know rows and rows and then he had a crash if he was that was how he was that was his personality. So one reviewer Of this book describes Jim is not the cliches of rise and fall of corruption by wealth and fame but of a sudden burning out of a volatile spoiled gifted intelligent artistic individual and so he he didn't have a sudden decline. He was kind of declining. Seems like most of his life was kind of headed in this direction because he was born. I think an addict. He was born an extremist. And a you know somebody who always wanted to push the envelope and when you have those two things together you can't really live long. Well Yeah I mean obviously saw a lot about this and it's just you know until you're about thirty you kind of think you're invincible. Especially a male here man especially a male with a with a an ego that is being stroked constantly by hangers on and groupies and And everybody else and now you have. This of that is You know put on you. I've thought about why twenty seven and it just seems that twenty seven is that age of you know you've been in this game for several years you've seen it all you've gone through the excitement in the the shiny newness of it and now it's like it's a fucking job and You know you just don't know how to handle of this sort of stuff and you know as we've discussed there's drug and alcohol every where Which is you know well known musical circles. And you also you know aren't aren't quite fully. You know a formed frontal lobe adult just yet your you know and you still think you can do all these things in in handle it and You know in your self medicating and you know so. It's not surprising. And I think a lot of these guys. If they could have just got into their thirties they probably would have been able to show. I need to slow down a little bit. Can't be Drinking that much and snort net much and taking that much more and things like that but you know unfortunately Jim passes there and As body sits in perilous. Shea cemetery which I was lucky enough to visit when I went to Paris. And he's definitely one of those guys that Will continue to come up whenever we talk about the rock and roll story So all right let's get Outta here What do you got planned for next? Got Any idea I do. I'm reading etta. James is out of biography. It's an older book obvious. Yeah she's been dead for a while but yeah I don't know I somebody oh I know the Chicago Blues History Twitter handle suggested it to me. They did on twitter. Yeah Great Yeah. That was really cool. Excuse TALKING ABOUT ETTA. James's autobiography and I went. She wrote an autobiography. What and he told me the name of it there there I am. I'm looking forward to that all right. Well let's get out here and I am GONNA leave everybody with. I think only sung that we can play at the end of this when the music's over perfect use it so uh news so into so turn up turn low rock and roll librarian produced and hosted by Chris. Wayne Co host Shelley SARS and all SOM- design and incidental music by Jerry down. Some quotes performed the actors unless noted find all of our shows notes social links at www dot banfield dot com or wherever? You listen to great podcasts. All songs have you found for purchase on Itunes spotify or reply please purchase great an important trucks on facebook at the our in our. Ap We are on Instagram. At our our archaeology tweeted at our and our our he`ll.
7: Stuart Maconie on Diamond Dogs Part 2
"Diamond dogs by Bowie available on. Rca records in Tate's worldwide diamond dogs. My reduction hello again. Everyone MOMS and dads and boys and girls and welcome back to albums album with knee Austin Muhammad and the second plus my dump station with Suet Makoni About Nineteen. Seventy foles diamond dogs. Thank you to everyone. Who's been in touch about the first part podcast? It seems that loads of you've been revisiting the album in the last few weeks as have I and it's been keeping me company around his last few days and I'm I'm really enjoying rediscovering. Don Don't especially par party sites sites which I never really colon to the full. It is fantastic and we can talk more about site to in the next edition of you so because we have not recorded yet steer sny only had time and in the previous station week ought to about an hour and then in this edition. We've that call fallow after that in that time. We only really get to rebel rebel. But it's scenic route to rebel rebel. So we're going to try and get together on skype and do the next concession sued in the meantime enjoy this installment and keep safe and I look forward to being back soon with much more. Thank you and enjoy. He made a film while he was recording it. He was recording a lot of stuff on soprano. Bobby claims that some of the footage features impatient John Lennon background. Berating him with the words. What the Hell Are you doing? All this mutant crop as bad as Bowie tinkers with a clay model of hunger city albums. Postal this doesn't saying I can't because for again for only pretension lights on an essentially was very likely he would've thought this one famous quip about Glam roping rock and roll with lipstick on bread. Vince do I love the fact that in candidate again like in diamond dogs the voice and the music starts speeding up and it starts off at slowly quite state. Yeah and then as agitated and more desperate and lyrics become more and more serie obviously yet but then the music keeps up as well and a slight dark satanic band a speedy. And then you jump in the river holding hands and big squealing sacks. Yeah but down. This lovely finale. Yes we think it's so gorgeous and something about this is just that piano as well. The socks as well. I don't know any. I got into Scott Walker's music but I thought he'd infant skull okay. Is this what you really hear it? I think you hear it on. I think I'm sweet. Sweet thing you hear that kind of doc bruised inflicted by soul inflected by Brechin. Vilem those guys but I guess at this point he will have known about the. The increasingly unsuccessful. Scott walks during the solo albums. I'm guessing you would know abiding by. I don't know but I'm sure he would have picked up of Scotland Four. We would've known about that and presumably he would. I think you'd starting to hear that in Bowie voice and you'll hear it more more more. Yeah Scott Walker's was really in the wilderness completely until seven night flights complete seventy five the walkers comeback and seventy five with no regrets and then he then languishes until seventy eight and not once but at this point Scott Walker would literally be doing the workmen's clubs right word insolvent would be doing what humans go what you did. You went through a period of doing not working men's club type thing beaches that sense because he would be would have been going on singing. These old hate hating himself. An increasingly increasingly rarely but in in the wilderness. Yeah scholar seventy does that. Don't very good album of the vendors the number of sunken the movies. And so you'll be really in the wilderness in this part of TV. Show that really just once that would've appealed to both as well. I think if he hadn't took the feeling of does this. Profit with honor would appeal to both these liking for the obscure in the unusual. Beat the legendary stardust cowboy boots or whatever. I think that would repeal because this was a guy that no one else was listening to something else. That's interesting despite. This finale of thing is when you come to low and heroes that dramatic. Yeah big love but doesn't that remind you of noise or so when you know when you get crunching grinding? Doon Doon Doon to Yang. Don't and then it kind of looks into a real crop wrote groove. Well that's right. I was thinking about this thinking when you think you think you. I hear the infants of Noyon station station. I always think stations. Don't go to I think of him you can tell he's been listening to not but I guess you probably what you've heard by now sixty nine seventy. Yeah Again. Listen to this. The week is one of the things that just let me before is pure metallic Kraut. Rock we here on the end. I think you on challenge skeletal family. There is group yet yet going round round here it goes quite well and then you've got the sort of screeching feedback happening popcorn and it's very I thought maybe there's an it'll tip of the metal machine music come out of that points. He's pushing me extremely five five. I mean certainly deliberate feedback. Which is absolutely liberty possible over it. We'd landing in the Bond Guide shopping as we move along. Come on. I think there's a real crowd wrote feel that right bill. I thought he'd had that kind of Berlin money a teaching. Finish me smoky nightclub. You can hear him singing in a deserted nightclub with gossip the piano. I've heard that but yeah just any dramatic vibe. Yeah you must know that. Very Funny Story About John McEnroe. No antone tell me okay. This is rebel rebel. But we had a. I think some interview early two thousands. One Night I was in London. Hotel was trying to get some sleep news quite late. Lebanon twelve at night and I had some big deal thing on the next day TV. Show something so I was really trying to sleep and I heard this. Riff being played really badly upstairs and I thought he'd hells doing that this time of night. Own Electric Guitar over. It was rebel. Rebel so I went upstairs to show the person who play it contest in trying to sleep at some stage so on the door the door opens and I say listen? If you're GONNA play and it was drawn. Mcenroe wow that's great you know and it was John McEnroe. Who sold self of some sort of rock guitar backing road? Trying to struggle his way through rebel? But what if what? If it's one of the old gold classical again the church you couldn't do the gives the line to the. Bowie's not a musician in the I mean. I know you didn't plan on the record. But he wrote I mean tell. Ya He came up with a bare bones of the riff Ryan and the tars and Parker giant literally took off and tweeted and added that little tail to its dude. Yeah what's Weird? Is How that riff is just boaters. Evidently so pleased with it. That is just pretty much constantly constantly last time of the stones or something nagging insistent all the way through. Yeah rebel rebel sorts of almost could be on a different record. Couldn't it anyway? Because it's it's it's just almost like a standalone song to great seventies pop single economic the economic z could almost couldn't it sort of leaps out from the record doesn't it which is going to get dark again on isn't a guy dark. Write Code rebel. Rebel. It's a soldier. It's an integration. The great tradition of at admiring songs love letters to exciting cool girls. The perspective of a singer seems to be a little bit. Older is not is not some no hurry so you know you a great you're cool. I think it's You mother doesn't if he repents. That's fine again. We mentioned this earlier but the death of Glam Glam was fading at this point on climate. Become a station climate. Just not beyond us about so. What's that about this song? Well I'm not sure when you wrote it Roy. It may be that he wrote a. I mean certainly. This isn't certainly. This has nothing to do with nine hundred floors. This is nothing to do with the oil musical. I don't know it might be. Maybe when he was writing this post apocalyptic. Ziggy kind of kids on the street. They weren't even if this idea to make this film about his musical about roller skating. Kids Hunga City. Certainly one of those could be the key to the rebel rebel. Imagine the United States for musical and Lebron's? Have you seen rebel rebel Winston and Judy? Could he no no absolutely? This feels like it might have been written for that for that other thing. He's got on the goal of the Z. Whatever this thing was going to be not Halloween. Jackie which sounds like it could have been terrible. You know what I mean like. If Gone With Halloween Jack. Could you see the thing is? It's such a difficult thing to do by this obsession with musical. Life didn't it because he was Lazarus. I know and if you think about the theatrical elements of it he can really change your view by Diamond Dogs. Too Much consol. Put you up seventy nine hundred eighty four today. I absolutely Lo- night for a masterpiece that appropriate what was going on in black music but uses it to tell this story about and the lyric but but but if you imagine it's easy to Magin what it would have been like in the musical. Suddenly you get chill because I can hear I can see a lot of people are really into by the stage in that kind of fake running and looking surprised that people musical any Sydney think. Oh my God this could have been really off the record and that it would have been the intro. Though that you would have been killed team but rebel rebels you could still have been the same guest. The could've been in this role Stay about rollerskates thinking. So what is he going to be some kind of cross between nineteen eighty four and starlight express this music? I'm thinking more about that. Famous scene in Christiane F but the kids are running around doing station. You know we'd be sped up version of heroes but yes but the thing is to get to get on the London stage pretty starlight express. He wouldn't he be relevant rebel. Rebel would have been a could've fitted because she's obviously part of this panoply of kids in Halloween. Jack's Gamay OREO FIT it in. But as you say it's it's in a tradition. It's the tradition of records up Shangri laws. Like we're talking about a ball what you're saying. Hey you're crazy you're cool. You're scuzzy but I like it you know it's not too which is a fairly strong relative. Ishani laws every someone from Arizona underneath the dynamos by but I love those. I love that but I just love the whole is give him a great big kiss where it was going on because ever in a pot lyric. They didn't spoke. Nitro is a good dancer. And she goes. She'll be absolutely scorn. She goes what do you mean is he goes down. I love but he's kind of lying that it's an admiring song to somebody who's been awed. You know an a bit kind of scuzzy. Yeah think I think your has your has all right got tonight you like me and I liked it all. Yes great lines. That's a little bit every. Yeah Yeah we like divine and I think. Does this come after the flop of diamond dogs before I think it was after the lead single from. I'm not sure whether we should. I think we should this up. This is important because this is a big hit is gas. This was everywhere. I think think this was before diamond dogs writing so I'll check them in it. Which will be interested in them because maybe maybe then because rebel rebel is a big. I remember I remember one time when I was a kid. Hi The number seven and finish. You'll absolutely but I wonder whether the maybe that was such a big hit went down and does Kimmel. People said we've had the version that they see now because well on the fifteenth of February nineteen seventy four rebel rebels released and that is quite a few months before the album is released and it reached number five on the UK sickles shot so that is definitely a hit reached about them to sixty something the US billable trump. Not so much. Do you remember the video for this? He's Pat Show and he's holding a Strut way. I've seen this is really shonky. Kind of yeah it's kind of camera kaleidoscope. Yeah Yeah Yeah. And he's just. He's not in buffalo now he's not really glading patch on these just singing and I think that's token centuries meant to be that kind of what you earn this Proto punk album. Yes like the spiky. Three cold refer Nola. That's fine but the attitude is their lyrics. No you're absolutely right. Bosa a valedictory kind of Glam Song. Isn't it because by Netcom is over? I guess isn't it Samuel? Is that the the shocking nece I think? Part of it could be a PISS. Take even so. They incubates all alleged to it. You know the Daily Mail headline kind of fields. But he's also golfed. It's also you can hear the prefiguring of Punk inning which I guess Glam and punk are cut from the same way when the when the punks come along. I'm sure they would have said we. Like the sweet and slade a lot more than we like. Pink Floyd Genesis Roy. They would have seen those maybe slightly lightweight versions of themself and culprit versions themselves. But I'm sure if you'd said to you know she if you say to. Those pumpkins mental clash but the genome. She'd probably have preferred the singles by Sweden slaves. Slayton T rex. Then he liked whatever else. Finlayson only use of underground wasn't he he was. He was a curious time. It was. I mean. What's an associate like curved air or something like that he will I all I remember John? Ron was aged seventy seven. He did the equivalent of what would they call it now? Ready Vision on Disney destroyed chieftains. He picked some debris and he finally got generation. Peter Hammill but it was really odd period the mid Seventies. I was just trying to get to buying records. I was thirteen and fourteen and I remember thinking the was that there were a lot of bonds just before punk. Who didn't fate anywhere probably be listened to diamond dogs and craft work and they didn't deaf school from Liverpool split ends from Australia all of which were slightly theatrical. Going about point yes. They were first produced by mountaineer from Roxy. So there's all these different things going on Glenn at I think a certain dissatisfaction with not with not with ways central program but not with Prog as in records being complicated and flamboyant but with them being ponderous but you know low to exactly compass and more pump positive you campana going on stage those going on to an those three towns with a sixty extra but actually I mean. Bowie is a lot of time in Bowie's music. You hear no prog not prog housing turbo complicated. But as I'm Bishen yes you know what I mean as an sonic schedule voice you can. Do you know what I mean so the by station station. Who Say I'm going to start this record with a track the last ten minutes and that I don't even sing for the first for Roy to whatever that kind of ambition. I think the program he can feel. It's a bit like one count. I remember just after punk out and Kate. Bush happened and there's nothing punk by Kate Bush at all but I remember thinking wouldn't I probably got them in a way because of punk because that sense of everything's up for grabs night? Do you know what I mean. The you've had a kind of heavy Gemini of Cava certain kind of music going on but a spent comes along and says a squeaky helium voiced teenage girl can have a massive hate all of Kentucky. Exac exactly the idea that we're in all the rules of the rubrics tonal and that's what you get you get people that Bowie did that. You know the return to rebel rebel yet. It's a it's a funny song isn't it? It's kind of. It's not as doc is anything else on the record feels like a standalone single composed. How's that to me but I don't know if it was from this musical. I think it's also got that very very Bowie traits of one of the future. Yeah now you know that. The end of it. The end of fashion from the mid point of rebel rebel. It goes into your queue. Line and handful of lose will be there with which to me predates young. Americans. We have that kind of Gospel style. Yeah fade out where he's got A. Yeah incantatory young and this so what you WANNA know Calamities Childhood. It just goes on and on and on yeah and I think like you said earlier this definitely. He's been listening to soul. He's missing so soul. Which had its roots in a sort of you know kind of Gospel when he does records that temptations made in the early seventies The temptations is a case all those long solo. People are not afraid to have very long phase where people are the ones who can testify all preaching all Filipino. Boys only pick up on that on this regular. Yes that feeling of the band will keep this kind of free form you know what I mean. Think PSYCHEDELICS PSYCHEDELIC sold is. This is a much dark thing than secretary so but certainly being. He's always been you know a bit like junk supposed to be the same as if you never hear John. John knows about everything that's going on. She told me about this that if he too much along. Johnny content you about trap music or if the current indie favorites but you but you never hear music which is always the same but we bowie always. What's the next thing? I should say voting introduced into his music. Quick he would get it into music very quickly and then move on and again not rebel. Rebel may be by now. He's into some clubs in America. Were obsessed by seventy four people like television. An heartbreakers will be playing in clubs royal. So maybe certain. I think definitely plan blonde. Yeah what was that previous incarnation before? They told me that there was something when there was a bit more kroger she using a wind in the willows house. Yeah Yeah Yeah. Yeah Yeah you just reminded me the Rodney Bingo Heim. Okay playing in West Hollywood famously. Famous DISCO Yeah. I think it's called the English language half hour every half how Hughes playing rebel rebel. Because all those goals that went on the runaways or Soussan Tro Joan. Jett all that not. This was exactly who I have in mind when I when I heard Reverend and I. That's exactly how I've been on that. Kinda street-smart write-off Tofu. Cute but not cute in any kind of drippy you know way. Outta sexy the runaway. Cg This was a you can get. This was a theme to and this is where he used to be hanging out. Danny sugarman Iki hanging radio low point to that point but they said they would drive over to the English disco. Rodney would be the king of. Was it the mayor of Sunset? Strip and rebel. Rebel was busy now in America. They can be bit more slow to catch on in these trends kind of filtered across the Atlantic and West Coast obviously Bowie. Of course with he's being. I guess a progressive person who would write a song light days forego. You can see that. It's not it's not it's not. Cassese so really. Is IT CELEBRATES RESULTS. So you celebrate. We don't try to pick your OPIE celebrating. Her and I can tell you that the a trench as a kind of anthem. You know so. It's great I mean. Even though he says like trump I love you so in his I still isn't sleazy image decides that sleazy. Maybe that's because he's Bowie. Maybe if I don't know off or even if a lot of people from the most people at that time. If Jaipur with someone who sing it would appeal with some thinking about. I mean if you don't if you classifieds record or not but if you want to be a case to the increase my coo-ca-choo by Alvin Stardust. Everything about that record. From the performance. The Black Glove to the lyric is post creepy records. But this isn't this is massively celebrate. Its Up Tempo. It's learn two different universes status was pure. Schalken's anybody doing the Alvin Stardust albums. Podcast will actually see it now. You mentioned that I was going to you. Come onto my next. Alvin to our podcast. You set up now. It doesn't have that undertow of salacious creeping into snipe reminded of Absol does your mother know. Oh yeah which I heard recently other day. Oh my actually it and that really I mean. There is the traditional generation of rockstars. Oh absolutely absolutely. But he's straight album doing an as well. It's very strength. Yeah I don't think about your love. Apapa DIES A. That's we draw a veil. Bjorn has such a face but you're right it was kind of acceptably it was almost. Hey Nolte Nellie which it now that you think that's a microcosm how things like softball and everything's GonNa Happen. That will imagine so. We didn't know nothing absolutely. It was not seen as maybe it's because rock music is still young. Yeah I mean that's the thing about rock music still young and it's still be met by young people. Nowadays there are still some people making Ralph but the RAW. We're doing this now. Rocks become an older and reflective exercise. Practitioners are older so now we think wait a minute. It's no longer the preserve of well of a twenty year old. I mean I'm being made for teenagers but it was then so it's probably wasn't seen as as offensive of salaciously to be celebrating the world of the team because people have been teenagers themselves not longer falls berry talks about a lot of rolling stones. You mentioned before the nineteen seventy five. I love but they're not with the single nine seventy five candidates talk about He said recently people don't people today. The older generation don't sign young. People like me and I am twenty nine. Winning Twenty Nine hundred twenty nine this period would have been decrepit would have been decreed plus at that point. Mcconnell has changed the world and broke the Beatles before then should twenty-ninth no young. Not then. Maybe it wasn't so unacceptable for to be done Rodney's English seven-year-old girls because he was probably only what he's late twenties right mid to late twenties but they would cram a lifetime into that again. You mentioned the Beatles now and I was talking about Abbey road some of the other day and then it was stops. You in your tracks when you realize how old they were. Oh my God yeah. George was twenty six that's unthinkable. Isn't it thinkable? How old boy at this point late this four seven forty seven twenty mid to late twenties so you know he way you'll get a nine hundred seventy five so you can sort of understand. So when we say is he. GonNa be creepy. That he's from an old position of an older guy. He's an older guy. Twenty six singing. About what lay teenage girl. Which was which was basically geriatric in that context. But it's it's it's also as well as being celebrated it has the feel of an in the best sense of fashion record straits of sixties. Paul you know it has it has chom. It's a charming record. Rebel rebel for all that it has the trappings of being Saudi punkish gum cheering and there. Is this element of. It's a celebration of a young woman celebrate of sexuality more of a stand style style. Yeah and I think he totally got away with doing this song on tour right up until his final toll. He's doing this on his reality tour and it works. I mean he he re cut it while he remixed it for the states so it was cut in the UK as part of the album but Osceola in America fell interesting to something extra so he flew over to the states and which is where he met Kayla Salomon and she was all fish and he couldn't remixed it so there's tons of Phasing Echo. I think they chop off the this long fade out and that's the hit single hit single version and it and it becomes this kind of bouncy wonderful trite but he also flips it around a little bit so you solve with hot tramp. I love you. So dum dum and he was doing that version. Until which could you know you see you re tenth early Sunday? Have you seen the rolling stones now? Not which because they've rained it in a bit us. All you know if you saw the rolling stones ten years ago maybe playing some of the old record if sat very badly watching these ancient men crossed under my thumb sits it sits battery. You know we're as Bowie could still do route because there's nothing in rebel. Rebel does nothing. Nasty about rebel. Just seem to me. Think about it to be very exuberant. Punkish STREAK ON CELEBRATION OF WOMEN. Style is actually and your identity mice. Most of my she wrote. It isn't my shoulder which is reeks of goat's go. Well I mean not the salacious recommend it but I still love it. I I love the rift so much. Great don't pay that. Don't go to the protagonist of again. He's not huge the upright but he's certainly as drooling. The city's women you. Talkin is a love that heavy stop start reading but from the era of also supply turning Japanese. We can do now without sort of the yet but this there was a tradition. I think it may have been the Protagonists Neil Patel. I'm not saying it's the gut. Let them off the hook because they were still relatively young. It doesn't have the creepiest that a that a faulty geissinger sixteen year old. Well I think we're going to leave it there for one. Wow WE'RE GONNA go over in a few from BBC in Manchester Sulphur. So dealt voting tanking selfish. You only have to walk five days over to be in Manchester but technically insulted. I ride a magister and now I'm in Seoul so to Stewart to cities cities cities of two students sulfate opportunity knocks. Thank you very much K. Your Times they sneak tastic and we'll be back to talk to sinn great fantastic. And that was me and Stuart mccully and the next part of all compensation diamond dogs yet to take place. I hope we will do soon over the magic skype. Assume one of those things and as soon as we've done it I will let you know I will until then take care all the best and thank you for listening.
Let It Roll: Robert Johnson Revised - What Have We Learned From Elijah Wald's Escaping The Delta?
"Welcome to let it roll the podcast about how and why popular music happens hosted by Nate Wilcox. Follow the liberal podcast on twitter at let it roll cast and check out our website at. Let it roll PODCAST DOT com. Let, it roll as a pentium podcast, and you can listen to all the other great peppy and podcasts at www dot pantheon podcasts dot com. Today special guest scholar and musician. Your Campbell returns to review the key lessons. We learned from Nate's discussion with Elijah Wald about his book escaping the Delta Robert Johnson and the invention of the blues. Maiden year evaluate Wald's boldly revisionist take on Robert Johnson and debate whether or not walled succeeded in reassessing Johnson from the perspective of his peers and contemporaries in contrast with the romantic myth of Johnson, long propagated in the folk and rock communities. Popping those ear buds and enjoy. It's time to let it roll. This is your host Nate Wilcox and we're doing a special. What have we learned episode once again with my friend and colleague Dr? Larry Campbell Yuri welcome back. Good to be here can't get good so today. We're GONNA. Look back on. Elijah Wald's book escaping the Delta and my interview that we did with him. and. We picked us up this book in that episode because. Other than Ed. Ward who basically taught me everything I. Know about analyzing music is a cultural history. Elijah Wald's books, this one and how Beatles destroyed rock and roll, which we'll talk about the next episode of what have we learned. Really expanded my mind because it took. It's a revisionist take on what has been disagree romanticized history of Robert Johnson, and the Delta Blues and found walls attempts to reevaluate Johnson. From the perspective of his peers and contemporaries, basically the black African that African American Blues Fan of the Nineteen Thirties and. Rather than from the perspective of generally white blues, fans of the nineteen sixties to now so it just totally blew my mind I tried to capture that to great interview. But the main point that the book put across that Robert Johnson was just a human being who sang and played beautifully. He wasn't a mythical figure. That probably wasn't really devil at the crossroads he wasn't. A country Bumpkin? He was a sophisticated sharp-dressed cat who travelled widely who listen to all kinds of music, not just what he heard live in the delta, but listen to the radio listener guards and learn so having said all that. How do you think we did did did I get that across in the interview with walled? Yeah, I think the book and the interview with Wall. You know Really, helps a flesh out. You know the the basic ideas that you were just talking about. And really helps to make it clear. that you know the blues artists of the late Twenties and early thirties in the early twenties really. Physically people that they were professionals. That they were participating in You know the creation of. New Cultural forms new sort of musical expressions. While at the same time. trying to freeze their audiences. Who had know? Fairly sophisticated demand and varying labs. Right so that the artists themselves as you suggested had to have A. Wide ranging set of skills, they had to have been aware of those sort of traditional musical expressions, and you know like in the case of the blues, things like Hollers and loans, and that sort of thing well also being aware of of popular music. Which by the nineteen thirties you're talking about. Artists like Duke. Ellington and Louis Armstrong and and People that are appearing in films on the radio, etc.. And so the picture of Blues. As this sort of backwater expression. Rural Culture Coming from people who were simply oppressed and trapped and you know on some level were expected to the ignorance. And poverty stricken just didn't hold you know I mean. You couldn't can be successful blues artists if you travel the country and rags. showed up at. Various venues unable to relate to modernizing audiences. And I think I think the book captures that really well. and. I thought your interview with Wall. Made that clear. Cool and one thing that I think that I'm still struggling with and I've read other writers that have responded to wall sort of rejected, but there's. This notion like united about genetics, rock fans who grew up with the whole myth of the romanticizing the Robert Johnson and the blues, and and a key element of that is treated in a blues, if it's some ancient form that goes all the back to Africa that goes back hundreds of years when the best evidence seems to be that elements of the blues like the blue notes, the flattered seven. Thirds? Might have done. That might be true of those elements, but the blues form formalize W C Handy. That's just not the case that it was a very modern form in one thousand nine hundred dollars. I mean it was the hottest newest thing. And when it hit records in the twenties by black artists and the key thing, appoint walled makes left out of the book. For the interview I didn't get to do. Is that the first people to record blues? Songs were white artists and I think that's pretty important, and those people have been pretty well raised. SORT OF IN A. kind of the white spider back with the original Dixieland jazz man have been appalled. Whiteman, even been not erase but marginalized. History. And it's kind of Karma. They got overblown in their time, and they got too much in their day. People like Louis Armstrong didn't get enough credit, but since then things have tilted completely, the other way and white artists dabbling in these mediums tend to get completely erased. At least we'd like Marion Harris and. But. I think the key thing is that this was this was a new four amendments was very modern music, and even Johnson was kind of a late comer. and was a decade recording almost a full decade after people like Charlie Patton, he was still. Wrestling with the light, the newest and the latest. That makes you. Know. We made several points. I think the Johnson himself I think his his sort of blues. Approach was. Almost anachronistic Acre it was kind of out of season. Right part of the. Part of his lack of commercial success or widespread notoriety during his time. With the blues wasn't really offended at that point, and and for whatever reason he primarily recorded. Glue saw his. and so you know that. That that shows you, the blues was something that was being presented to audiences and developed by artists within. A flow of cultural production that was that was new. Happening was modern To talk about the question of. You know Blues, some sort of survival from. I thought it was. It was most interesting when he's talking about W C handy. And I think it was molly rainy I could be wrong, yeah. I think as more rain, each of whom had these stories of their travels as professional. Musicians who come across? You know now forgotten. in in the case of WC handy never known I mean. He tells the story of being at a train station. Meeting this. You know local guitar player who plays in this crazy style. You know though it was this innovative. You know daring. Approach to the guitar, and he had himself at never heard it, and and and my rainy shears vocalisations from a woman that playing a that and has to ask what it is in this told the it's the balloon news or whatever? So you know while it's clear that there are going to be. Different styles and different locales during that time that were kind of separated by physical space and a lack of access to technology, and the during the the the the many years that came before recording, and as a result might have people that played what they considered to be the police in one place, and then in another place they might use the term to refer to a slightly different or even a very different style. It's clear that once you start getting close to the the recording your are. At least it seems close as a result of those two sort of anecdotes. You know the MARAE and the W C handy elegance. It seems clear that. The Blues wasn't something that was widely agreed upon. That can be easily. defined. or or easily explained and that it really comes into its own as what we know. The Blues to be which is sort of family of approaches, primarily propagated by African Americans. That happens you know during the era recordings, and and it stems in part, it appears from a need to establish John Rotterdam. Slap a label. On. A musical approachability can do as this. This new thing that's going to fuel a craze. Right I think that that is. That's a profound. You know sort provision. That's a profound. Observation about how commerce works, and all that kind of thing as well as cultural production. And there are conversations preparing for the show one of the points that you made talk show interested in with sort of what made Robert, Johnston, so perfect to be mythologised. Looked talk about that a little bit? Robert. Johnson didn't have a lot of recordings. I mean Waldo. He provided that list of. Artists from the the late. And Thirties and how many different side they recorded. You know people like bill bill brooms, who recorded hundreds decides right. Jogging has a relatively. Small number of recordings. They were popular at that time. And so. You know he was kind of obscure. I mean very skua really until he gets rediscovered in the sixties. In, this in in a new context, right like I was saying before he was operating in the in the in in his own timeframe. As somebody WHO's kind of out of step with the times, it was kind of behind the Times even though. He was appreciated by. Some You know music lovers, etc, but by the sixties you know we have this kind of explosion of interest in folk music. and which you know, the people who were folks fans had some fairly strong feelings about What was? Acceptable, what was real, you know? They didn't want electric occasion of the instruments in many instances. It's a Robert Johnson as a purveyor of this kind of stripped down. You know what they might have considered to be primitive and therefore authentic blues. He, he he met the needs of those people you know of. The audience is in the sixties in. Other artists weren't likely to to do. He said he was obscure, so they could discover him. He seemed to be have sort of pure history, and he comes with this whole mythology, right? And kind of sound. You know the songs about Hell Hounds and so on your soul crossroads. I mean all this kind of story. And so he was kind of. You know he was ready to be discovered and ready to be repackaged. Really was kind of like a blank slate. That could be. Fit within the context and within the tastes in the needs of. The the full and real blues type. Audiences of the sixties. Yeah and news news also dead, so unlike his contemporaries of like muddy waters Halloween. He wasn't out there hustling. Recording Electric Music and everything else, but let's hear. A song possibly Apocryphal Robert. Johnson Song as far as the myth. This is Rob Johnson Hell Hound on my trail. tone. down. And that was one of the songs that started all the trouble. Was Robert Johnson? Hell Hound on my trail so here you have a guy who? Sort of built this mythos around himself with a couple of recordings. While points out. If you look at it in the context of Popular Blues. At the time, you had much more popular figure and PD. We'd start coming out with the Saint Louis who? Either named himself after a folk tale, or created a legend that became a folk tale of PD, wheat, Straw the devil son-in-law, and so you know, and that guy had you know a ton of sides, and they're all very amy, and so it's hard for us to go back and evaluate PD wheat, Straw Fairway and talk about wall quite a bit, but you know if you're young, Brian Jones or somebody like that in England and getting a hold of these books in these records like John Hammond compiled Columbia. King in Delta Blues. Volume in volume too early sixties and to get this guy. You know artifacts this record in your hands with along with a book that tells the story of this young man who is a no talent, and he was hanging around with son House, and and trying to follow along and people laugh at him. And then he comes back. You know six months or a year later, and suddenly he can outplay everybody, and so this myth that he sold his soul. The devil really had a power that that. Took on a life of its own in in the minds of people like the rolling stones and Eric Clapton and rock fans all around the world also in any can't discount that that's a real thing. That was a real cultural force, but you know when walled blows the smoke away. It's kind of funny in retrospect, and I really wish. Robert Johnson had longer. Just to see it. Now. I mean I would love to know what he made of all this, but well it's it's it's. It's of course utterly speculative. You know counterfactual, and there is no history to support, but it's still fun to think about the idea of probably like Robert Johnson did apparently have this hunger just succeed in this hunger to become an effective entertainer and in had talent. Worked at it well enough to be recognized for his transformation as sort of player in an entertainer and our. It's fun to think about what he would have done it. She had survived. You know where he would have taken. His his his art. You know and in the same way that you have something like muddy waters. Who you know had a wide ranging set of tastes, but he picked up sticks and went to went to Chicago. And help blow up the whole new scene. You know, so. It's unfortunate that Johnson died and. In in that sense I guess I mean. His his legacy is sort of. Fell into the perfect storm. rediscovery the stall Jota, and that sort of thing, so he's not been forgotten, which is. Definitely not I mean he's. He's outlived everybody. One Angle I didn't bring up Walter while this talk about the origin story of Robert Johnson is really close to another figure, a contemporary figure, which is Charlie Parker who infamously you know got a hold of a saxophone learned a couple of scales on a song or two, and then tried to take the stage with some of the guys who played with Count Basie, and got booted off the stage. Spend you know the next six months feverishly woodshed. Every song in every key comes back a year year and a half later and blows everybody away, and in his case, it wasn't ascribed to the devil. It was ascribed heroin. Snow of. You know and so it's just funny that people. Have this need to sort of mystified talent and hard work which. You know that's a powerful combination that most of us don't have that kind of talent like Robert Johnson supposedly could hear a song for the first time. Remember it. Play it back and play new cords. He'd never heard before. If he heard the cord once then he could figure it out for memory, and that to me is amazing, but it takes work, but there's three points that you brought out that we're going to try to cover the rest of this conversation the first one this is the things. Things, we learned from this conversation with Elijah Wald, and that's one how commercial success works the power of the audience, and the vicissitudes of meeting in creating the audience needs and tastes point to as out. Innovation fuels gets Thornton by commercial dynamics and three. How context helps define how the cultural product and the is received in this includes racial dynamics, so let's jump in there and talk about. How does commercial success work because you know Elijah Wall tells the story in the book kind of his epiphany. Came, when he was teaching at music class about Robert Johnson about the delta. Blues and muscle students had heard Robert Johnson, but he didn't start with Robert Johnson because he was teaching in historical order, so he starts with people like skip James Charlie Patton who are Johnson's immediate precursors and Delta Blues and the students are very eager to hear Robert, Johnson. Charlie Patton their love. Get James and son House and cannot wait to get to Robert Johnson then they get to Robert Johnson, and there's this down because. After hearing Charlie, Patents Skip James. You know this kid's good, but he's not doing anything new and that kind of blows while Ted Open and helps him understand why Robert Johnson wasn't popular in his own day and it's interesting. Johnson's kind of A. Secondary Product I mean the recording industry only goes out to rule in America. When Urban America's starts by radios, and so suddenly they say OH WHOA! There's a bunch of poor white and black folks out in the country, and not just that, but there's also klezmer singers in the cities, and there's all these. Ethnic minorities all over the country that they can still sell records to because these people will have access to radio. The radio's not playing. They're Kinda music. And so that's where the Charlie Patton wave of artis gets an Gibson recording studios in sells records. Then there's depression. The record industry dies and ten years later. It's sort of crawling back because juke boxes and that's where Robert Johnson comes. In is like some people thought well. We can probably sell. Some records of some Jukebox is down in the delta. If we get this this country, kid clan some of this Delta Blues. But. It's in a context where people you know. In the Twenties Charlie Patent at all were not the bigs. The bigs in the twenty s were Bessie, Smith and Louis Armstrong and Lonnie Johnson APD wheat, Straw Tampa Rad Blind Jefferson. And me, mentioning Louis Armstrong is Gonna I know people's hackles. Scott raised because we have this artificial bifurcation of jazz and blues and seem as two different things, but the next thing. I'M GONNA play is Bessie Smith with Louis Armstrong who also said Jimmie Rodgers? And Bing Crosby Louis. Armstrong was all over the place in this. Because Jazz was pop music. It wasn't some sanctified elite art form at this point. One! Also flowing out of a lot of the same sources that was you know powering the various innovations going along. But Polluters and. Let's go ahead and here a little bit, Bessie, Smith and then I'll let you finish your point and. this is Bessie Smith with Louis. Armstrong and they're doing the Saint Louis Blues by WC. Not as Bessie Smith version of. Saint! Louis! Blues was Louis Armstrong in the horn and now go ahead and. Support your about start. I was just noting that you know the blues. At, that time was flowing out of varying sort of musical traditions and musical practices and musical voices, and the jazz was as well, and they often shared connections to those those. Sources of inspiration and so naturally, there are some connections between the two especially since. You know the blues. There's a is a sort of tag that gets put on varying styles, etc, and it doesn't really. Necessarily provide In Ironclad. Definition ironclad a boundary around musical. approaches you know in talking about. You know what we. Can Glean from. The from escaping the Delta regarding commercial success, or you know how commercial dynamics get applied to. You know cultural product. It's yet. It seemed to me that you know one of the central. Thrust of what? Walden wanted to to bring out was that. The audience is. Is probably the most powerful source. For the development of the product. And the sort of innovation of the product Cetera. Audience has has this connection with. All points of the commercial effort. Right? I mean you've got money. Being put into producing the product, you have artists that are putting their time and efforts and their knowledge of of varying audiences especially during the time we're talking about where you know. You had lot of traveling musicians that had to be aware of their varying contact. As they move from one time to the next the next and The the money ends up. You know somehow learning about the varying tastes, etc.. And that so that that's something that. Ties in with the mythology right like the audience of the sixties. Have this need for a particular type of artist are particular story, or if not a need for a taste or an appetite for it. And you know that helps to drive. Robert Johnson's rediscovery, and and and his explosive popularity and influence over that. You know era whereas when he gets into the classroom where the students there from a they're learning about in a historical manner as you pointed out. And so in that context. Robert. Johnson doesn't sound. All that different or all that exciting right, and so the excitement that comes from the foul G. and comes with having. An artist that meets the needs of the sixties in in. You know the fall out of the sixty isn't present with those students. And so that audience you know shows. Each audience has its own sort of context. And helps to formulate. Commerce and commercial efforts to get their music out there. You know is affected by those audience expectations, which doesn't get enough attention you know. Absolutely I think the thing about Robert Johnson is he somebody who broke out culturally and posthumously bet, but he is way better known than his peers Charlie Patton skipped his predecessors. Mentors Charlie, Patent Skip James also his peters like money waters and Halloween who had the big advantage of being to live longer and adapt to new instruments and get a second chance and postwar Chicago, but it sort of reminds me of the Beatles and the rest of the British invasion I mean if you were to be teaching a class about British music in the sixties. I take a lot of kids today. We probably focus on the rolling stones. The kinks are the WHO and be kind of like. You know what's so special about the Beatles yet. The Beatles had this enormous cultural breakout, not kind of unprecedented in kind of match since then, but once you get down into the weeds of evaluating these things just as records. You know they're great, but so are the rolling stones, and so are the kinks and Van Morrison, and so you know. It's very hard to. On just purely aesthetic basis say. Why did this artist breakout culturally and and other artists didn't because aesthetically they're pretty comparable yet. You Know Robert. Johnson's become not just a legend industry. I mean there's new books about him. Coming out. Every year of somebody has a photograph of Robert Johnson Claims Photograph Abroad Johnson. There's a bidding war and you know I. Think Walter Little Cynical. Doesn't believe people listened to Robert, Johnson that much that they may be bought the CD back in the nineties, or or maybe subscribe to his channel on on spotify, but don't actually play that much. I don't really know it's really hard for me to Analyzing. It seems like the long tail. Basically everybody's listening to Billie Irish or whatever a tiny minority of people are listening to everything else, and so it Kinda evens out, but. I don't know. How much? Listening time. A relative to other artists. You know that these these old like I line blues recordings get. I think that you know you do have these. This instances where? The money the the the record industry who has control over the recording. is they put together a product and they have a sense of the audience. They have kind of a sense. You know how to get to distribute. The product a lot of times. There are technological advances that occur and definitely with Robert. Johnson I mean part of his enduring profile. Is that Bach set? That came out on TV. In the late eighties early nineties. It was tremendously successful. In Climbing Yeah. I mean it's just crazy. and. When you and the interesting thing is, that didn't fuel some rabid Re Address I mean this CD. The digital revolution CD revolution eventually led to the reissuing of you know all kinds of stuff. The had not been seen for years on TV. But you didn't have. An explosion of interest in early Blues Fouling, this tremendously successful Robert Johnson box. Whereas like in nineteen. Eighty Danny sugarman book. No one here gets out alive. Explodes Jim Morrison. into. Greater in the doors into integrated notoriety and And Monetary Success then they had had when they were existing. Just you know ten years earlier, but that also involves an explosion of interest in the sixties in general. And and and kind of. Solidified this this nostalgia. Based music industry approach of. After X. number of years we can go back and resell this stuff to the next to these. Next generation kids who are just two younger remember it, it's it's GonNa be all brand new for that, you know. And so I. Think! It's interesting that. Robert Johnson's box that was. Such a crushing success. But Lonnie Johnson remain completely obscure, and he's and he's an unbelievable townhouse right? Yeah, we draw is is largely. You know obscured and forgotten for you know even though we have some. Minor! Coach figure like dolemite making some exploitation own. You know where he is. You know marrying the devil's daughter and. Kind of thing is a PD instructor. But. That's just that's kind of. That's part of the commercial fray is kind of knowing your audience and your spots? And knowing how to put the package together. and that was true back the twenties it's true and at the dawn of the C. D. version. That's true. Now you know and I thought one of the things that wall brought up. It was interesting. Is that You know towards the late twenties. The Blues of goes into Hibernation as far as innovation is concerned. And Part of that was because the industry kind of figured out how to sell it. They figured out what they could reliably present to the audiences. And, so the money ended, it was like we're not interested in idiosyncratic street corner. You know. Blues Singers, or whatever we this more news, more sophisticated arts. Leroy. Tampa Red's are these duos debt or smooth and. And could kind of. You know satisfied both urban. Audiences and rule already unintended at the same time, and so as a result. Familiarity and the the money and feeling like they they had it. had a clock. Innovation of thoughts for a moment I thought that was an interesting point. Yeah, for sure, and it's also important to keep him on that in the context so much. The innovation was happening on the happening on the big band side, and so you know you had like a guitarist, Charlie Christian. Who was definitely a student of Lonnie Johnson for sure and probably was familiar with definitely blind lemon Jefferson, probably some of the Delta Blues guys, but he goes into jazz into playing with Benny Goodman ten years earlier. He probably would have been. Following a career path similar to Lonnie, Johnson and I think a lot of this comes to appoint. Pre. Pre show discussions, which is that humans need signposts, and that's where we get Kennedy's ironclad genres. They can imposed on music after the fact and talk about that a little bit. Well. I. Think that it's just you know human cognition. If you WANNA like sort of. Get into that deeply. Get into the weeds on that level. I mean human cognition requires boundaries. You know it requires differentiation, and it therefore Beth classification you know and. John Laura is a way of using that sort of very human. Cognitive tendency to classify things. It's the way of selling. You know an item or a product saying like you're over here are your records and then within this been a records here. We have some genres. It it's it's a shorthand. It's very useful to have things like stereotypes. I mean. We often denigrate stereotype because there's some obvious. Problems with with relying too heavily on stereotypes. and. It, not not least of which is the the people being stereotypes are eagerly marginalized etcetera. But stereotypes are still useful. There's some truth to stereotypes or some truth. There's truth to you know easy classification, such as genre, and that sort of thing. And it's it's. It's so useful that we continue to do it even though. If you once you get into the genre and you're interested in, and then you get to know. You know the blues, or whatever if you become invested it, then you start looking at it and you can, you'll find that the people that are really entities. Your others get impatient with it. And It's just it's. It's one of the interesting sort of dynamics comes out of you know studying. How have commercial success? How do you? Get your product in front of people. How you? Felt, the audience know. What they're buying giving them a shorthand to help. Break down that barrier between The product and the money that the the the consumer brings to the. To the market. You know what I'm saying. Yeah, and I want to play our next song. Which is a song that you picked out? That is weird collision of. Lonnie Johnson. Who is a city sophisticat, extremely Slick Blues and Jazz Guitar Player when he was doing duets with bing crosby's guitarist. Eddie Lang when he wasn't a plan with guys like Texas Alexander who's come like a John Lee Hooker figure swept in off the street. I mean this is a guy who does not keep regular time. This is a guy who. Does early, impose much of a form on his music, and and in a way is almost hearkens back to fill haulers. I mean the the song can't Moan Blues I mean just let people here at it's Texas Alexander Lonnie Johnson Doing Camp Moan Blues. Cuma Mud! I. M. A Oh. and. That was Texas. Alexander backed up by Lonnie Johnson Duly Kampman Blues and you call that sort of a collision between. Modernism and postmodernism and pre modernism. I've been talking about that. A little bit like the blues and the twenties. We heard Vesey strengthen Leuliette Louis Alexander and it state of the art. It's sophisticated. It's slick. And then you know and Lonnie comes out of that world. At Texas Alexander is Bama. mean. This guy is pretty much sounds like he's straight out with the feels. While I mean. Just. Before making any further comment I think the name of the Song is Levy Camp Mon glued. Levy, can't. Moan and entertain example of that kind of of of. Field expression. In the way walled explains in the way, if you kind of read about it in other places, it's much more individualistic form. almost talking to. It's the the senior almost talking to themselves while sounding out there on feeling. ETC, but you know. Reminding ourselves that the blues is. Probably something that has a relatively. Modern sort of presence in that time, right? We have already mentioned that it was something that was kind of developing at that time. That's that recording. Astonishing because it does have this you can. You can hear kind of the the prerecorded. PRERECORDING era in the way, he approaches broke relations. You. It's also something that's not really. I don't think that that recording was something that was likely to be popular. It wasn't something that was driven by A. Audience Tastes and desires at the time was recorded. And they if there are a number of recordings between did involve. Johnson, backing you know Alger. Texas Alexander and most of them have much more typical guitar. Backing that provides melody fleshes out the melody, but also gives a little rhythm a little shopping to it. So that, you could dance to it or what have, but in this instance there's none of that right. It's this kind of SRI, forum call and response. that. You. Note that there probably weren't many guitars could have done it as well as Johnson. but it it. It has this kind of collision this kind of throwing together of these two different styles. And Lonnie Johnson. It's almost A. You know he's making up disease going along right it. It's IT'S A it's on some level. has this really new sound, so it's? That's how it sounds to me I. Don't it entirely possible that there were people that. Had A history or You Know A. Doing Hollers, bones, and having guitar played with them that way, but there are not very many recordings of it like that. And as a result, it has this kind of. timelessness to it. It doesn't sound like it comes from. An easy genre I don't sound like it comes from some trend. You know that was going on at the time Cetera. It's really a remarkable collision. It makes me think of. You know like somebody like captain. Beef Heart, who, while a talented vocalist, is very eccentric and mediocre musicians really struggled to play with him, but certainly like Ri- cooter, who's a virtuoso and minded was able to accompany him brilliantly, so somebody like Johnson Brings Butts, the chops to play anything, but also the sensitivity to understand what Texas Alexander is bringing to the table whereas I think a lot, you know your average virtuoso would have been just dismissive of Alexander. It'd be like I'm not gonNA play with this client. Whereas somebody that alterra elite level like Lonnie Johnson Raccoon can adapt themselves recognize what the performer is bringing to the table and company that brilliantly it's. It's It's a really really fun. Listen and you know the the struggles to sort of understand these things and trying to do it. On their own terms like what's this lesson whilst trying to impart? Israeli fun, but get into. There's always the potential for misadventure and and I think one of the most interesting things going back and listen to conversation with Walt again was his comparisons of. The response to the blues on the part of people like Brian Jones of the rolling stones, and Eric Clapton who missed the joke Robert Johnson's biggest hit was playing blues, and he tells the story of being at the service where they put I think put a grindstone on Robert Johnson's grave finally or some kind of ration- and there was a service at the church, and so there's a mix of local African Americans and then you know blues fans. Fans and white you white folks coming in that are big. Johnson's Fan and Elijah Walton aband- there because all the musicians you showed up, and he's singing Tara, playing blues, which is basically off color, double entente song, and that was the closest thing Johnson had to hit in his lifetime, and the by folks in there are getting their laughing at the dirty implications, these lyrics, or as the white who will vary somber and serious and appreciating the Blues and He makes us comparison to NWEA which really hit home to me? Because NWEA was the first lack group that really broke through with the white kids in my hometown of Borger Texas in the late eighties, we, the racist backlash of the seventies hit that area hard, and I had never seen. White kids get into black music, I, mean a few of us were getting into run. DMC and a few things like that and you know the gap band Rick James would have hits. People notice in Michael Jackson Prince obviously had an impact, but NWEA swept the metal heads. Like nothing, nobody's business in Wald's based tags like you either have to take that as comedy, or it's just a bunch of aggressive people yelling about stupid stuff and and. You know. Other writers like buying on. That guy disrupted the book about trump called quest. He broke it down Nina's nwea very cynically, knowing exactly what would appeal the white boys and he now that. Is Keeping Company totally nailed that and and. You know if you listen. On one level it is, it's hilarious stuff, and and you know by nothing but bitches and money. You know we don't just say no. We're too busy, saying yeah, and and. There's all these white kids coming along and taking it seriously just like there's all these white kids come along post-facto with Robert Johnson and taking the whole. Satan is Amiss. Seriously I mean to the point of this Ralph Macho movie about it in the eighties, and so I I just. Talked about. This sort of trouble we can get into your crossing racial boundaries in John Boundaries. You call it contextual abduction I think. Well I think there's a couple of things there in one of them is. Is that obviously? You know there are different context that come from different sort of cultural millions right. And it can be difficult to read the entire meaning that goes into a cultural product from one locale from one group of people, so the next group of people I also think especially in the United States if it were raised, issues are involved especially between black and white. there is there's. That occurs especially when. When, White! Audiences white consumer. Tried or or have a desire to? Consume black cultural product. Of Times, it comes at the needs to be serious into to demonstrate. that. The culture is being taken seriously as being valued etc, etc.. And and and so that. That solemnity almost. Can Get in the way of enjoying. What is a long-standing tradition within? culture. Within the dozens within you know within. African, American musical expression African American stage presences, etc, the double entendre. Etc.. Lee. The other thing. I think that's and I think this is. Part of. Why walled tries to occasionally insert information in the narrative about. About blacks and whites creating music together playing music together, being influenced by one another. And showing appreciation for one, another is the you know. Our individual artists I mean they're trying to trying to find audiences that are as broad and deep as possible because that secures their financial success, and it brings brings out attraction to the more people that enjoy the music, the more styles buying it is. and. Many infants is the artists themselves are not particularly interested in helping to maintain racial boundaries. They're not particularly interested in helping to maintain genre boundaries. and they would rather just bring everybody together as much as they possibly can, and so you know you have these instances in the book where? Like Elvis Presley. Is Trying to explain his commercial success and his ability to enter the music industry in a successful manner, and he starts talking about being influenced by local African Americans. And he and he basically is worse by. You know linguistic convention. And Lock it's just occasion as far to like refer to. All black seems like well. The blacks were doing this we. Refer to individuals with key sad interaction. With this this blanket term right, and and then he says look I just did what they were doing a little spin on it, and then I presented it to the peak over here in the segregated. You know Population of White. and. They could consume right, and it's it's. It's when you start looking at how race! In interact with Ron Ron? One of the things you notice that the artists don't tend to want to. To support that. But they're forced to deal with it right and the money end of it. They're much more likely to say well. You have to be careful with what we present, so we want you guys to. You African Americans in the Nineteen Twenties and early thirties to record blues. Let's say or you know there's there's sort of by for you're. An artificial bifurcation that goes along with with creating genre. And creating products for varying markets, and that's why you end up having you know. R. And B. and pop music when really they're all really essentially the same thing. Which is you know? attendance to social certain social norms and and racial social norms can affect genre, and it can affect the artists audience in Iraq, if each other. Absolutely let's hear. Tampa Red Song, and this is with the guy that was billed as Georgia. Tom Later became known as Thomas a Dorsey the father of Gospel, who totally disassociated himself from his early work or Tampa? Red, and after you hear tight like that, see why. Day In my head on the pillow maybe. That, New. They go on. Lack. Gene had a ball. His name was snow'll. Lives off the how? I liked that. I liked. On inside lag. Spot that was Tampa, red and Georgia Tom Doing. This classic example of the kind of double on time that had driven sales of Blues Music and would go on to be a big part of our mb all through the forties and fifties and on you know. That's just a big part of African American culture that that's broken out into the mainstream at various times. But, in addition to these racial boundaries that you can get. Tangled up in there's also these distances of time, and time can raise this awareness of what can really happen and to me. This whole project of of let it roll as an attempt to try to apply these lessons Edward Thomas You know, follow the audience and try to look at things in the context of their own time and doubt just focus on the artists that are remembered, but look artists that were popular at the time artists that had some other kind of cultural impact, even if it wasn't mass popularity at the time and tried to see that. In this broader context, so you know. What did we miss like what what when you read the wall book and then listen to the conversation. What did you feel like? What did I miss. Is there anything out there? Glaring that we need to bring a wrap it up. I don't I. Don't I think you know between? Your conversation walled in the conversation. We've had today. Most of it has been covered. I'm not. I don't feel like I'm saving some. You know glaring omission. Do, I do think it's interesting. This is kind of a escaping the Delta kind of popular book, although it does have footnotes and substantive footnotes, it's not just you know For those in concept points. And it has a certain sort of academic aspect to it. In I think it's important to note that he he. Is apply sort of basic academic. You know a approach. This historians take which is to try and race assumption into trouble assumptions. And to. Go back and look at it. It primary sources contemporary primary sources, etc, still Kinda see. What was really happening? What was the actual context? Not to be driven by subsequent popular. Assessments. and. There's also an element of sort of the anthropological approach which is to try and immerse yourself in the culture. And to sort of. Disappear as an observer so that you can most accurately. Absorb. The practice is in the cultural products. Of a given study group just very difficult to do, and it's you know there's a lot of arguing about whether you can actually do that. I think that from the from the standpoint of. Trying to look at. Cultural second innovations and productions and commercial endeavors based on. That culture and technology etc.. Good to keep in mind you know. That sort of circle approach and the absence logical approach. And that you know there are, there's a very well known paper within anthropological circles where. This concept of deep plays. Is Is. Bandied about are the deep clay is basically this. A set of dynamics in value expressions within a group that are largely invisible to outside observers. But that once you get immersed into the culture you can you start to see these the plays going on, and it helps you better understand the culture their values. And, the products that come out of those cultures I think that paper were primarily interested in looking gambling. COCKFIGHTS in Indonesia. I can't remember yeah. That's right cockfighting. Indonesia Yeah A. And, so you know I think that's a good thing, but keep in mind for people in general. Studying any kind of human endeavor and trying to assess what had happened in the past and see how it connects to presence, and all that I think that that book does a good job of popularizing. Those kinds of efforts you know and talking about things that are. Pretty Complicated an easily obscured. Sure and I'm looking forward to bring any back for the next episode. We're GONNA. Talk About Elijah, Wald's how the Beatles destroyed rock and roll where he applies Sundays principles to the study of. The Beatles and Paul Whiteman and you know an alternate title could well be Popular Music from Sousa Sergeant. Pepper, but he went with the pot stirring. How the Beatles destroyed rocket by. A lot of people scratching their head I know it lost Robert Chris Cowan. I talked to Chris also looking forward to having you back on and. Is Your Campbell doctor e Campbell and we've been talking about alleged escaping adult. Follow the letter role podcast on twitter at let it roll cast and check out our website at let it roll podcast dot com. Next week year e Campbell returns to ask. What did we learn from Malaysia? Wald's how Beatles destroyed rock and roll. Let it. Roll is a Pantheon podcast and you can listen to all the other Great Pantheon podcast at www dot pantheon podcasts dot com. Love. Escaping the Delta is available from Amish Todd an imprint of Harpercollins and can be found wherever fine books are sold.
Goldmine: Documentaries that rock with Harvey Kubernik
"This goldmine editor, Pat Prince, and welcome back to the gold mine podcast a proud part of panty and podcasts. This episode of the mine podcast will be talking about rock and roll documentaries, films, and video footage. Why? Because celebrated music historian Harvey Coober Nick. Wonderful Two Thousand Twelve Book Canyon of dreams the Magic in the music of Laurel Canyon as released the book. DACAS. That rock music that matters just this year it's a five hundred twenty page paperback of interviews, documents and artifacts. What hundreds of photos published by other world cottage industries. The book focuses on the visual aspect of music whether it's a movie like easy rider. Like all things must pass wages a great documentary on Tower Records done by Colin Hanks the son of actor Tom Hanks or vintage TV shows like American bandstand and should dig and others. Harvey. Interviewed. Plethora. Of rockstars, insiders like recording engineers photographers cinematographers. Documentary, movie makers, and even distributors involved at all the visual creative works centered around music that matter Harvey Kovac as some of you might know is a native of Los Angeles and he has been tuned in the music and entertainment industry for decades almost sense as birth. So yes, he's got a lot of insider stories to tell. So you will WANNA listen to any time he's on the podcast. So let's get connected to Harvey Harvey Kuba Nick to the goal line podcast. It's always a pleasure to have you. Excited to be here Pat I. Know We We did one a few years ago and you know the soft spot I have for. Goldmine magazine in that demographic you know many many decades ago I wrote for the periodical and that continued over and you still anything. Listen You know I it's interesting to write. For a magazine and then months later or a few years later they're reviewing books you've done. So I guess the duality is really benefiting these. So I'm happy to be here in talk about this latest. Venture. Well, you have a wonderful book out called Docks that rock and it's called with the subline music that matters and what I liked about it at fills a void about music documentaries which I think and I'm sure you'll agree have become even more popular now since the since the age of streaming and Net flicks and you have more availability to them if you will they're almost more right in your face to choose than they were before we kind of seek them out. Correct. Correct I did a book in two thousand six spent hinted at did exam and. music documentaries, but it also went into the world of music. Supervision. And you know VAT arena This time all along I've been collecting data and doing research. On. Music films DVD's videos. items are going back to Betamax and I decided. I mean this goes back to nineteen. Seventy five interview I did with Johnny, cash that was published in melody maker. I asked him about his television show. The Johnny. Cash Show Very Popular Nineteen, sixty, nine to nineteen seventy-one ABC television series. which came out on DVD ten years ago. And I. Just started realizing I have access being a native Angelino in child of Hollywood. That when. Film festivals were happening or the. Salutes and landmark. Of. Music documentaries. We're going on DVD or streaming platforms or just shall we say events? Where some of the documentarian who are eighty and ninety years old coming town. I better start really dealing long-form interviews with these people I met them over the decades and I had profiled them before. But I felt I'm going to develop a book. Where we? We then. Music documentaries that I've. I, have history with us that I've collected that people know about or should find out about and then sprinkle in some music television shows because it was the music TV shows of the late fifties and the sixties whether it be. Declared American bandstand or Shindig hosted by Jimmy O'Neill or Hullabaloo TV series and especially. UPBEAT WINCH ORIGINATED FROM CLEVELAND. These were the TV shows where I. You know I wasn't even a teenager yet saw rock and roll on TV, and now what we're seeing and I know your audience. Knows this we're starting to see these TV shows in these film clips. Showing up on Youtube or Hula. But also they're being. Re purposed for long form documentaries on people and all of a sudden these TV appearances. have become very valuable and. I actually danced briefly on American bandstand and actually dance on Shebang not that I had some sort of agenda two you know show up on Broadway dancer one day I just went to schools where they gave tickets away and you could You could meet some of the acts or at least you know you get a pack of Gum something showing at the TV studio that everybody took the bus together to go. And it really informed My. Lifelong. Love of music and Cinema, but I think this book. it became very timely because During this pandemic. We've all been sort of landlocked. And what what are we doing? We're reading more books. We're watching more TV, we're subscribing more than ever to net flix. We're discovering Bob Marley has a youtube channel I sit at some of Youtube Channel and all of a sudden I had this book and development for many years was had just finished a book with my brother on Jimi Hendrix and the publication got back to next year. And I realize this pandemic thing is really not going away for a while. So I. said to. Travel Pike. I have a book here. It needs to come out. and he said the magic words you can make an as long as you want. Me and gold miner readers know this especially when I'm giving online venue. I like doing five ten and twenty thousand Word Stories So when I'm giving the green light to do, you can have five hundred pages. Instead of three hundred. And and I just didn't recycle old you know interviews I've done i. made it a point to bring a lot of new interviews that I did. You know February March April and May and into June and And now we have a book in I mean for somebody like you and your readership reviewers. I I don't think there's another book like it out there all of a sudden, the timing of this. Is really connecting but and you're seeing some of the initial reviews, rights and I really tap the nerve here Um. So you know I'm delighted but you know just three of the when people are so receptive to it because like gold mine. I knew that there are people out there. Looking at this book. They may discover the movie rumble. They may actually go buy the DVD of the Dylan Penny Baker don't look back they might really go and find the deluxe edition of standing in the of standing in the shadows of motown right So part of Part of the mission is to be of service. But also I just. Wasn't there somebody was putting out a documentary whether it be. You Know Bang the burn story I mean the list is analysts. It's it's sort of all there. I thought I. Thought it was what was special by reading a book is that like you said, you are part of the city of angels you were born there. You always lived there. You'll always involved in the community especially music, the music community and what I loved by reading the book is the fact that you were involved even before you became a writer, you were going to American bandstand and the crowd. You're part of it and I love reading about and I think it's special for readers to read behind the scenes and the Dick Clark The Dick Clark section is special because he talks about one thing that I thought was interesting and we both spoken to you know. Artists of that era that the British invasion artists and a lot of them hated. That period of music variety TV shows because they had to limp lip sync, and there you have Dick Clark, telling you that lip synching was an art form. Itself and. I got such an interview out of Dick Yeah and again. I'm only basing this on. You know fifty miles, a dozen early reviews and phone calls I'm getting this books on been out a few weeks. I have completely reframed Dick Clark. Of People. which was not my goal up checked and I realized. I met him a few times over the decades I've been on banned Stanford brief season and sixty six. But you see these people you go over the years I've invited to the American music awards when I go to some award show. But I realize. Okay. I'm GONNA go do. Ninety minutes. Clerk's, office. Today. I have history with him. I really did watch happening sixty eight I. Really wasn't some tapings of where the action is. I really. Didn't see the Mamas and Papas and Bob Lynn on American bandstand and. I actually have such good memory. I actually like always mentioned the people I danced with or the guys I went to the show as. I. Still Talk to by the way all these people I'm still in contact with and something happens. Something happens in happened when I'm able to go see a Dick Clark. And saying something off the top of my head hey do you still speak to famous hooks who was a lead dancer on American bandstand and he said was just on the phone with him when you walk into the office. And that sets the tone of destiny. And what happens is it okay Dick Clark and I are going to talk about the Beatles today we're going to talk about. The early tours where they're horrific racial incidents that he witnessed or try to save. And it sort of. Sets. The. Vibe for the whole book that I'm so well prepared. And I really do my research and all out work anybody then. When you are the Messenger like I am. And you're the translator of the interview. Brings something different to the table that nobody else can get. And here I am. And have all the pieces in this book and I'm here to discuss whatever you want. I know what? It's for somebody like you who's entrenched in this music from fifty two to contemporary sounds. You learned a lot about Dick Clark and you kind of thought you knew a whole lot about him but even something. Frivolous as being as lip synching or talking about you know other other aspects of his journey. Finished that chapter in you go. This is a different kind of music book. Fills in the gaps of history because you've heard Clark talk a million times about what he thinks rock and roll roll was and what it stands for. You know you don't hear talking about the little things about lip synching or any of those little things that went on during the time that only someone like a gold mine reader would wonder about you know what I mean and I think that's very special and it the reader will get out of this stat since you were part a lot of a lot of TV, variety shows you know out there in La, and you were part of it and You know the fact that you were there makes it feel like they can live through your. You know they can live through your experience. Until by the way until recently, when I would occasionally mentioned my own regional history and articles I've done. Yes. I remember getting twenty emails one day in one was from we'll just call him a former friend. And that's all I want and it's a friendship I missed. But I was really done wrong. and. He read something and actually put it out on one of those threats. Things. Remember I'm not very active and social media. No really website no instagram I don't do facebook I I'm I'm you know I'm too busy living and writing. But. The the email said. You always gotta drop yourself into your pieces. Survive had a name dropper aspect to it. And then it was followed by other people including people sending me emails, people, they know because they. Would forward it to me instead of handing out my contact at a saying. Can Harvey put more more of himself in his next book? Yes. I didn't know he danced or just saw him on a film clip of I in La, it's on it's on Youtube and all of a sudden everybody and this is travis hike. This is people involved in my concentric circle of breaking the books to the to the retail world. Were saying like Harissa saying you know I really liked that you. Knew Jim Clark. I really liked it. You met Casey Kasem your you did six interviews with Da Kenny Baker over fifteen years. I keep you need to let people know but but then Dan Daniel Weisman who's an author and a writer said to me. You know what's really funny about your stuff. I always wanted to tell you to put more of your personal history because. You actually are Hollywood person I realized. You know I did go to some tapings of Shindig. we went I have recall of of what the four tops were wearing even though the show was broadcast and black and white I remember those green near Destin sued. So I was encouraged to put a bit more of myself in this book a handful of photos of me when appropriate. And And even having to. You Know A. It just called for 'cause I'm not an academic. I'm not a professor who teaches at college though I lecture at some schools I just Kinda thought I have this history I did meet Jimmy. O'Neill. Who hosted Shindig I have these encounters and from Johnny cash on down and interviewed the funk brothers when the motown movie came out why not just put A lot of stuff on the pizza this time like extra garlic and extra harvey is somebody said to me and I said you know what? Right now I'm in a space where I don't care what people say about my work or my writing. Because I'm really employed. And I know that the articles and the books are reaching global. Penetration but the KARMIC aspect of it is. I just Kinda know. Some young kid or some girl or some grandfather is going to maybe by the Johnny cash show DVD or checkout Alison Elwood's you know Laurel Canyon a place in time documentary they main rediscover the concert for Bangladesh would celebrate the fiftieth anniversary a year from now they might pick up their first ever Otis redding. DVD From reeling in the hills years production. I'm I'm actually the guy. Who just might change their lives by taking up not a record or not streaming any recordings having to? Physically purchase. A DVD or at least watch it online somewhere or streaming pay paywall service. People have to get invested when you're dealing with the music documentary on. It's one, two, three hours not counting the bonus, Steph you and all the gold mine people relish. So these are this is beyond suggesting a record in somebody's top ten this is actually saying. Hey kids hey, everybody you might have missed these movies or you saw them only in a movie theater which are forbidden to see again. in the in the festivals of DVD's rock docs and all that aren't happening the pandemic. So now there's a book serves as sort of a tour guide. and. You know that really wasn't the main goal. I had all these interviews with filmmakers I made it a point. To always talk to engineers, producers am filmmakers and I, I'll often we'd get you know early advanced links to see stuff much like you. You do it gold mine when you get the advanced link from a record label and because there weren't too many people trying to I mean I'm on a second volume of this thing this is fourteen years later after the first navigation. So the the timing's really worked out, but also I just Kinda know. People's minds change after checking this book out, they don't look at rock and wool movies ever the same again there's this thing is so frontloaded with loaded with data. It'll take a year for this book to be Jiji Justed when she started. And you know basically people are. Will be turned on to new things like you said, and they'll be able to live vicariously through your experience and that is unique and I also like the fact and I think. I think you should also bring up the fact that you use sources not just from the music industry or musicians, but from academia till one such person you turn to Dr James Cushioning I believe he's Academia right. Maybe you could explain to listeners who he is. You know he was the phone call before you today. Okay Dr James Cushing who? A month ago retired after thirty three years. As a professor of International Literature Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. Age. But also he's the guy I came up with the term rocket DEMOC. Because he just wasn't your usual professor on campus for thirty five years. He was he was an active disc jockey on places like KPFK FM and KTBS FM in central coast. California. So there's the duality that he was a disc jockey. Through his college years through his. Academic Life. And the most one of the most hardcore record collectors ever He just cover he's the guy go to Dylan concerts with he's close with my brother they. Think go off jazz land sometime in leads A. Guy. WHO's going to go by the Five L. P. Son Rob box set for record store day. You know what I mean but he has been. Again he watched the development of this book we go. We went to see some of these movies together in the theater than we would dialogue after. Then I would say. You know I'm writing about this movie rumble. what did you think of it? and I, and then diff about don't look back. I could ask him about Penny Baker I could ask him about Murray Lerner in the festival movie and We. Have seen these things in. Movie Theaters or at Film Festivals. We eagerly awaited. Their arrival on video thirty years ago. We re gobbled it when they came out on DVD with some bonus tracks or director commentary. We still are discovering the outtakes and extended versions on the Internet visa via you know youtube or sometimes these filmmakers and these musicians on their own websites postings. And I would say over the years I've got a lot of Fan mail or people that you know bookstores coming up to me going. I just bought my boyfriend, the Monterey Pop. Deluxe edition, DVD, I, read about it. Online like they don't they don't they read about it in gold miner mo or the La Times or places that I've written things for. You I never knew this. This internet thing would completely. enhance. My retail visibility so that if you write about Monterey pop or concert for Bangladesh, you're right there on Google. It's so it's the article like you know some of my gold mine items are out there. They're ten twenty and thirty years old if they've been digitized. And all of a sudden people are. They're not buying a band they're not buying a brand. They're actually going the extra yard at checking out of movie or a DVD or a deluxe edition. You know version of something they might have gotten ten or fifteen years ago but there's an hour of bonus material on it in the whole configuration has changed. and. Somehow this guide or call this book maybe guide, but it's really the most autobiographical book I've ever done because I've. I've dropped myself the book every few chapters where. I mention or cite my initial place where I saw a movie. The other theory I have in maybe you might. Verify this. This is just the theory that Dr cushing I have discussed recently. There are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of books and articles out largely written by East Coast New Jersey or New York writers, and authors. That constantly. Parade their use. The school they went to the colleges they went to. You don't really read too much. Of. An this is excluding rap music and the lyrics system. The WORD SMITH IN RAP music coming out here ice cube can tend Lamar bit. You don't really read a whole lot of books about native people of Los Angeles and the schools. And the concerts that they went to. So when I show up and talk about. Being on American bandstand. A shindig being or just my encounters running into people at the premiere of don't look back in nineteen, sixty seven. In Los Angeles. Something happens that it hits everybody really hard because I, know you can say to me. I don't read too many people from La talking about their hometown constantly like you've done. True. When he's agree with that concept I do I do and I think what has happened when people? Wow, you actually interviewed the wailers. You actually saw Bob Marley six times. You actually saw johnny cash. Twelve. TIMES SOM- and Shindig and sixty five. Stuff's not dropped in like for some cool factor. It I was encouraged by Dr Cushing in. So many people saying you're the only one who was there Don't make this a footnote and don't save for interviews, stick it in the text and I don't think it comes across his name dropping. That was my tiny concerned. Because I missed saying, why didn't somebody said to me? Why weren't there more photos of he? I said, I, didn't I didn't do cameras Steph back then. I did try to go look for American bandstand switch in and it was quite a. The licensing price was pretty exorbitant. So John Looking through the book. Now, trying to see how many photos of you maybe only five or six. Not a lot but they were done when appropriate. Get I get a little bit of extra out of this book. I was looking for stuff and maybe you can comment because I didn't find information on it. So I WANNA get your opinion on it. I know there used to be a festival every year in Texas where Robert Frank would show the film cock Sucker Blues. Did I miss something. Did you did you talk about Cocker Blues in her and I actually did if it and again sometimes these things are tuck in chapters I'm glad you asked this question and I'm really proud of myself that I could say yes. One and houses arrived. Organically I interviewed the director Paul Jesmyn fifteen years ago for standing in the shadow of motown. That's where. Now follow this and six months ago. Maybe. I, he had lectured friend of mine's. Documentary Class AT UCLA professor. David Leaf. and. I said do do you have Paul just moments email? I know he lives locally I'm sure I could find him justin films or something. because I'm I'm going to be doing a book. Can I have an existing interview with him? But I wanted to get some quotes from him specifically about the filmmaker Robert Frank And I emailed Paul and he gave me two three long paragraphs of what he learned about filmmaking from Robert Frank because he had been involved in the editing of cock. sucker blues. So the film. Is At least addressed and discussed you know in a full page but it's tucked in the motown chapter because he was one of the few people that studied under Robert Frank and then has become this director himself doing all kinds of J. Gyles, videos and things like that. But I specifically asked him about the stones. And that movie and especially rob working with Robert. Frank. So he addresses that yes. Well, Kim I'll have to look I somehow overlooked that. You see a movie. Don't you sometimes need to see the second or third time or other things get tucked in the mood? Know. Yeah. So that's China one of the little. I wouldn't to say it was a literary device. I just was. SMART enough to go. Well I wanNA talk about right frank since I. I saw five of the nineteen, seventy, two rolling stones. You know concert dates, I want, and he was around for some of the filming the editing of the movie. Talk to me about Robert Frank So Bad thaddeus. Yeah. Fact I read the entire rolling stones chapters again to try to find it. Now you told me where it is so also, do you remember speaking about TV, variety shows and not all of them in L. A. were on major networks and there's this interesting history about this guy called David. Snyder men he was the acid king of the rolling stones and supposedly he had. UNDERGROUND PUNK TV series in La I don't. Know. You and I think it's the same guy. And I, I had mentioned his name. With Peter Ivers in my book in two thousand six Hollywood shack chop. Davis Schneiderman I think might be David Joe. and. He and he and Peter Ivers had a show called new wave theatre. Exactly. That's exactly. Gradual marks with the bird coming down. Did I just hit it for you? Yes and and I did go to some tapings of new a theater I drove Jello Biafra. One time to. Theater Jones the core for that? Yeah and I went to a couple tapings because I met Peter Reiver's two or three times when he was a record producer and doing an album for. For Warner Brothers and he was very smart Harvard trained. Brilliant man and he had old school routes, but he also gave a platform. To. Shall we say new wave and Punk rock music and I was and it was done locally. So I remember that that's probably the same guy is. It is the same guy he changes and. I find out by watching some of the clips from the show, and I thought this is pretty cool. This is the beginning of you know L. A. Pumpkin L. A. New Wave, but then I read Oh my God this is the same jerk that turned Keith Richards and Mick Jagger in in the drug bust. That interesting. I had. I had co produced and hosted. My own television show starting in Nineteen, seventy seven, which preceded MTV and new. Wave Theatre. it was short lived. It was called fifty fifty. And I would have people like Danny Sugarman Todd Rundgren, Michael Lloyd and Murray's K. on. But it also showed clips of Retha. Frank. Otis redding and I did have a couple of local bands like the group twenty. Twenty Perform on the show of lips thinking. So I dipped my toe into this world and we're talking nineteen, seventy seven still have. I have. One of the shows. Lectly, I gave a copy of Michael Lloyd right after it was done and I know Todd Rundgren has a copy. put it on Youtube. please. Interesting I like some of the same clothes. But I remember I will say one thing I made efforts knocking on doors of Hollywood for a year. Trying to paddle. Of this kind of show. And Right. and. I wasn't successful. well faded or Venus. Job as West Coast Director van are frame ca records, but I couldn't interest suppliers and vendors and distributors, and again, this is fledging. This is a world seventy, seven, seventy, eight, seventy, nine. And so pitches didn't work. There was also some scorn and ridicule people didn't like. The race mixing that I was doing on my shows which became sort of. Underlying theme in this book about segregation and identity politics and race and gender it keeps showing up in this book. Maybe I didn't know what I was doing when I was asking Johnny cash people about the native Americans or talking to David Ruffin of the temptations about. what was it like on the road and he would volunteer a racial incident he didn't through these start realizing. A and Mary Welson of the SUPREMES talks about standing on the shoulders of other people that came before the supremes Motown, and so in this current climate we're living in. there is some socio political aspects that. Right. are in the text which was not the game plan and now and people are saying you've got female directors producers in this book. I mean I I i. mean. There's a woman named Linda Snyder that did the front cover of this book. I've never met or talked to her. I I'm not I'm not the Hollywood guy that does committee meetings and has to draft people and deal with inclusion writers and all that kind of stuff. That's not me. I'm just documenting my environment right and so all of a sudden this book is Getting position is a little bit more than just a movie show movies and TV series and rock and roll DVD's, and if you dig deep. You. You learn a lot of stuff from quotes from Berry Gordy and a lot of people who I always had a lot of the material though I did a lot of new interviews the first five months of the year her. because. I couldn't go to concerts or clubs anymore. Okay. We might just get this thing out. It's it's just maybe there's a sense of faith hair. You were writing about socio political topics. Time in the seventies and eighties when the music press kinda turned away from except for maybe rolling stone than it was in the sixties or even now So yeah, you were. You were definitely talking about stuff like that and. You were multicultural and you're you're perfectly right. You were writing. You had a style that others kind of stayed away from your hand over my face it you know although only gold mine readers and people like yourself and. I'll use this term old school although I'm very encouraged by the new school. Children that are showing up. Who? Worship final. Nevada their way to collect mono who actually actively support you know record store day. Eight. Just like some of my peers they don't really care what's on the charts. They're not governed by being chills for the record music industry. and. They know because I. I think when you look at the acknowledgements and credits in the book or you read some of the chapters. You know I come from Los Angeles. Including the I like eight years of my life in downtown Los Angeles and Crenshaw. Village should true I grew up in the surf well from one thousand, nine, hundred, sixty. Fifth. League fifty seven to sixty three with my parents my brother we lived in Culver City in. West. La and then I was a teenager in West Hollywood in we are now but. You could not help. But HEAR BLUES AND R&B in what we now call. So music blaring. At least when I became conscious, maybe nineteen, fifty six. On, you couldn't you would hear Larry Williams here a little Richard, Fifty, seven, fifty, eight, fifty, nine, they were recording for a based record labels. SO SO MUSIC R&B Music. Has Always. been. Deeply embedded in my life and showed up in the interviews I did so when I? When I had enough money to buy cassette player and actually buy some blank tapes. I made sure to interview David, Ruffin of the temptations or Bobby Rogers of the miracles. And and meet Curtis Mayfield Jerry Butler I. Mean people that have been on the cover of gold mine I don't have to tell you. But. I'm glad you did. I. Think I think I think the aren being the? Blues. Music. World that. I. I lived in. I never deserted it. So when it came time to write about Otis Redding. Or the stacks review or motown. I brought some stuff to the table that no one ever has done before and I think again not to harp on this point. You constantly hear and read the New York writers authors. And their personal history of growing up in Harlem and went public school they went to and I'm not I'm not degrading that at all. But. I don't think a lot of the Los Angeles, writers and Authors and people like myself until recently. Through my share force of will. Got these books out. That are now reaching global. You know status. That, we're finding out see what happens you find out about Los Angeles through Harvey? Cooper Nick you start doing I mean why did Tom Petty Right the Intro to my two thousand fourteen book. Turn up the radio because television city. And the music shows out here on Shindig, brought him and the heartbreakers to Los Angeles and Hollywood from Florida. And I I'm the guy that went to those TV shows. Partially because they were. I don't know one mile from where I lived with my parents and the world wasn't as hectic and crowded back. Then there was one temp as many people you wanted to go to Shindig. You could show up even without a ticket one time or they needed bodies to fill seats. It's you know there was no people weren't. Scalpers in this world, you know it was a a different thing. It was a pre FM radio maybe world It was a very. Los Angeles has been very good to me and I think, I've been very good to it. Weaving it in the work I've done and I don't hide my via regional affiliation I'm quite proud of it although. Somebody brought. An article from years ago in a magazine. which doubted myself. Growing up. Downtown, Los Angeles really. We something had met me in junior high school. But you know you do have a life before age thirteen and fourteen. And you know your first record impression that started five, six, seven or eight or the first record or the first time you heard somebody on the radio you remember that date don't you and your life is never the same after that. And I've learned to focus on the positive because I'm now I go to a market and And somebody will either hear my voice from radio stuff or recognize me or maybe I'm wearing a Hendrix or Marley shirt. So they coach the this guy, Hey, that's is that Harvey Kimber Nick wearing barley shirt because. They weren't there to see or meet Bob Marley or interview the wailers Bob Marley's been off the planet I think since nineteen eighty one. So, there are people like me that were witnesses. Yes and I'm still in this racket after forty eight years. and. So something seems to be happening where there's some sort of I don't know fits reward but I'm very much into the acknowledgement and very few things. Really bother me anymore because there's too much good stuff going on in our very sad and horrific world that I hope improves. But I was irked. That imply that I never grew up in Los it downtown Los Angeles because I never. I mean I never really have had the format to talk about it. So I I am. You. got a brush off people like that. Anyway told us the people I said well, what do you want to see a picture of me in at Coliseum? Street elementary school. For the explorer. So I just kind realized that myself and people from La. Had the big national forum to write about the culture we came out of. Compared to other cities and all that So I think when I bring people into to the setups or the wrap-ups. Completely adds another dimension to the journey you've read. And I have to say the pictures and the artifacts in this book of you know largely from Henry and his archivist librarian Gary Strobel and my own collection. I really think they really underscoring reinforced the texts that that's tossed it everybody. Well, let me put you on the spot now and have to read her book I WanNa ask you in your opinion which music documentary defined it subject best. Okay. Okay we'll throw a couple a couple you couple of. I think the doors. The doors products live at the Hollywood bowl in life at the little white. Really define the doors. Because they're largely concert footage only. So you're you have a frozen moment of time of Jim, Morrison and the doors or the doors collectively in sixty eight. And then you have them in nineteen seventy. So I think that's a pretty stellar. Mentally. Now for really going into documentaries, I thought the Allan Slutsky Paul Jesmyn standing in the shadows of motown. Really. Brought into the world of the funk brothers and that might be and we use the word best or. The, best example because. The funk breath to even. Even the common. Music journalist. We didn't really have a lot of names attached to the musicians on the motown records until nineteen, sixty nine when the name sturdy being online gun marvin gays what's going on album You didn't know the names of the players from sixty to sixty nine on the records you bought right? So I think that that movie. In my encounters interviewing the surviving brothers. I, kind of thought that movie really told us about motown. And the players on the record because we are so aware of the Jackson five and smokey Robinson and Marvin Gaye the temptations. But now we got to hear about the musicians and I have to tell you my mom if I have a favorite or my go-to. might go to movie. I I have to say that The Da Penny Bakers Monterey pop along with his don't look back steady above dealing. we league really. Are are still solid I learn new things every time I watch them even though the association told us they were upset that he didn't include a the best part of their performance in their. Association make after forty years the the bone has footage of. That's another thing of, but often I know one thing about concert movies or documentaries. We this goes to any movies made anywhere. They're often not shot in chronological order, right? But but I have to give some real Kudos to Colin Hanks and his all things must pass. Documentary Tower records I I have a feeling that chapter made an impression on you. Yes, it did. And I really like. We took I don't think we both took tower records for granted I mean the opening of tower records in nineteen seventy in West Hollywood because I had Actually been on that location when it used to be the site of madman months, he used to put in car radios and car speakers and everything in cars there. So that the location of the Sunset Boulevard Hollywood tower records. With inhabiting a place? Of a sound electronics wizard that east to put in some of the first early car stereo systems. But I saw that movie I went to the premier. I did an interview with Colin Hanks. And the pretty sure the film. And I was just gobsmacked and believe me they did have I believe in started as a kickstarter project, but they did have funding eventually and proper distribution. And That movie made such an impression because I really got to meet rest Solomon. The founder of Tower Interview Him. But then I decided why get a hold of Either some friends of mine have people I've never met. whether somebody DEF LEPPARD or musicians that I either had seen shopping at tower records or new over the years that they got records at tower records or just in my encounters and friendship. Brian. Wilson, I know how active he was tower records. Although in the sixties, he was a big fan going Wallich's music city you I'm from Hollywood. You see everybody of these places but I think that tower records chapter why able to Rodney Being Heimer what did you think of tower records or Joe? Smith before he died I got a quote from him because I I interviewed him for a book I did with my brother on the Monitoring International National Pop Festival in two thousand twelve and I just kind of asked these people just kind of as an aside. either tower records had just closed or I heard they were closing. I never thought it would end up a book, but I had the data on file and I think when I write about this movie compared to all the other interviews and articles, you'll read on it. I just took it into a whole new world. Yeah. I felt nostalgic again in even though you're right at the time I took tower for granted because I enjoyed myself there shopping but I usually went to the independent record store first to see if I could find something to contribute to them and then went to tower of if I needed to because I thought of them as a conglomerate but this movie kind of made me feel better about feeling nostalgic to. and. Let me tell you something there with. Move Against Corporatism yes and support indie music and I understand I've always go. I. Listen. You're talking but know I liked having a foot ensure. I and now that I'm a little bit older now. Why should I? Boycott Tower records because they didn't have a large re rack section of new romantic music. I mean or they didn't really carry. Early Smith. You know picture sleeve the EP. So I guess they're not cool. No you once you suspend all that restriction. Yes and understand that dame grohl before he became an nirvana refer fighters worked at tower records I think that stuff's really. Franklin even though I liked before to buy the indie labels on I, still support them I. Love with the major labels are doing now with collectible block sets and I'd love it as a fan as a collector. It's like a dream. No you you have no idea that Whether it be is I mean right now. Watching the major labels as they've all teamed up together or they've been doubled up together. I am delighted that they've been forced to go deep in their archives. Love it, and the, and here's another thing I've been on this fifty year anniversary tip for a while which is. When, they were twenty, five year anniversary six. I think I wrote something for Gold Mine I WANNA your beano cover story issues. Twenty years after. You know an in nineteen eighty-four, maybe nine, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety, four, thirty year anniversary of the. Beatles. Coming to America because I had I had seen the The the closed circuit, a concert footage. Well, I saw live when the DC concert sixty four was broadcast nationally. But what I'm saying is I was picking up on this twenty five and thirty year anniversary things. Twenty years ago, and then I was watching all things must pass that came out as a fortieth anniversary edition and then I'm sitting here, writing articles and stuff on Elton John's fiftieth anniversary this week of his debut at the Troubadour and I'm watching these fifty year cycle things happen whether it be. Box sets by the band or Beatles re releases or expanded. Double Exhibitions of things or and so the labels. Has Gone deepen their. Archives. And we start seeing these things become available for retail, and so they finally join the brigade. and to me, that's been her. 'cause I've just seen. I don't think the sixties music is going away or these movies are going away because we're on a third or fourth generation now, and we know how many kids are checking out Bob Dylan for the first time and now they can go. Renter on the don't look back title or other items like that and all of a sudden. We have A, we have a world, and this is something. Dr Cushing is still done me. Many years ago I said you know I'm trying to write about some of the new music but. The editors won't return my emails. And I'm trying to write about Rap Music I've interviewed Ice Cube three times I've been ice t's house I've met care terrorists one and I have an interesting concept of talking to rappers then and now. Simply as wordsmiths and writers without the beats and music. So I tried to get a book going on that and believe me nobody wanted to see me at a record label or publishing. House writing about recipes they give you some of it's been published and I and I found myself. Whole. That's your next book I I I. It will. It will happen by the way I had a chapter on. On. Ice Cube in two, thousand, six and my. Hollywood check job of talking about lyrics and all that I put him and Milton Band People's. And they'll stewart who did watch stacks in that book. See I've been doing this this this this thing a very long time and I don't think a lot of people picked up on it nor do I sit there and ask for the super coverage or the acknowledgement that it's sort of all out there. But incl- including this little segment of this thing. I think Something has. Something is happening where where I was said I said to Dr Cushing. You, know. There's I have a lot of data in the bullpen, a lot of information and I'm getting access to artifacts and Ephemera and photos never seen. The only trepidation I have is. I don't want it's traffic exclusively in nostalgia. But it seems to be one of the few outlets I have. Excuse me as a writer that people are taking these articles are asking me to do these interviews. And he said. because. He has a sense of history when you're A. Professor in English. And literature he said it's not nostalgia if you're delivering new information nice and that to me. which. Is Why he's thanking every one of my books and I showed him in half a dozen of the chapters. I can't tell you how liberating. That comment was not that I was like you concerned I was still going to do these interviews and still WanNa talk to Raymond's Eric and other people always talked too. Far. As. thinking, they could work in big format bucks. Said, it's not nostalgia if you're delivering new information so it happens and this is starting to really dwindle. People check out some of my books or read the table of contents or they read the first reviews that are always very good coming out. And then they're stuck to have a decision to make. Their really in an interesting position. It's like they're on the basketball court. And they have a chance to grab the ball. Well, what's Harvey Kuban it going to tell us about Shindig or the tammy show or the Elvis Sixty eighth special or did Clark or upbeat television or this movie rumble or Orangeburg Burns and bang records. When we've already kind of seen these movies, we have a lot of the records. Is Rehashing these things? Is it kind of guy to check these movies out every year? One of those kind of list kind of things. And so there's a little bit of hesitancy. But the hesitancy is disappeared right now thinking physically get this book and you hold it. It's one thing reading about this book on the Internet. But. Until you got the package from my publisher and you saw this TNT bomb in front of you. You realized Whoa look at this now and all of a sudden when she read the prologue and check out everything you realize it's not a rehash it all it's a completely new look at examining this world by somebody. Who Actually I work on documentaries I'm in some of these big. Documentaries on Queen and Christine mcvie and things like that. So I actually in this world as a consumer and also as a participant. Well I gotta ask you one more thing before part and okay, we asked you what? You thought were defined subject best. How about a documentary that fail to show the largeness of it subject. I'm only with and I'm a little biased here I did write the liner notes for the fortieth anniversary edition of the Elvis Presley Sixty eight comeback special. And I love the DVD of that out. Of that. Of that legendary, you know broadcast I mean it made me go see Elvis play live in nineteen seventy after I. saw it on television earlier. Now and I realized. Record Label Sony Music. Entertainment is involved in this. In this reissue. Of this sixty eight comeback special. It's been out on the live soundtrack album and it's been out on on. DVD. Before. and. Believe me Steve Bender the director is interviewed lanes and there are. Some outtake performances. You know you know from the show. But I wish we got more well first of all Elvis Presley with the rare press conference didn't give interviews, right? So we didn't really get to hear. Elvis gave one press conference before the in the before the TV show was. Was Broadcast and he said something like I better. Do this now before I get too old, you know kind of joking kind of thing but I I really would have liked to. I mean I mean at a point in the liner notes in this chapter? To interview the music director and all kinds of people. But I, wish some of these people were actually. Filmed for inclusion on this DVD. And You know wanted to learn more about Elvis Presley what was his mindset in nineteen sixty eight when he's off the charts. and. We don't really have Elvis talking too much about what he was doing back then and when I when I do a project. I over film it I over recorded I interviewed forty people then cut it down to twenty six. I don't think Colonel Parker and the Elvis state then or now. They usually didn't give you too much of a glimpse into Elvis Presley offstage. There are moments in some of these documentaries that have been done or since his death we're learning a lot more about him in books and all these kind of a tabloid driven kind of profiles of him but I don't know if that broadcast documentary failed. It just was very limited because it was specific to a television show and the ancillary moments surrounding but. I just wish we had Elvis doing voice. Commenting on this things I, agree. That's true. He's still an Elvis is still means a lot to me I I. I saw him six or seven times and You know I write about him in the in this book and I think that's sixty eight comeback special. there are some moments in that show that are just riveting including the performance if I can dream and things like that, and I have to say one thing about that chapter that. Only the gold mine. Advocate with totally relish and realize what a coup was for me. Can. Leave you with this but this also sums up your demographic where they would appreciate this story. It may not work in any other interview, but for people like you will. So I'm I'm working on this Elvis Presley chapter and I have the DVD's and the soundtrack album and all that and I walk into a local record store in Sherman Oaks California called Freak beat. And The owner Bob say. Says to me. What are you working on next? And I said Uh, I'm doing something on Elvis Presley. and. And he said, well, what are you doing analysis? And I go. I'm actually enlarging. I'm doing a really good chapter on the sixty eight comeback special part of it was in the recent HBO special. Elvis Presley you know searcher. and. I was reminded again just how good that TV special was and I had interviewed Steve Veterans Director. I went to the chiropractor years ago. And an actor lance landslide Gulf walked in who I recognize and I said you landslip gold. We talked about Elvis Presley because he was a friend of Elvis and the standing in a bunch of movies any plays tambourine in the sixty eight? Comeback. Special. On the kind of stripped down portion out and I and I interviewed him I up Sag to get his phone number and he called me right-back. But I said to the Guy At freaked me I'm doing something on the sixty eight comeback special I think it's going to be really good chapter but I really it's very hard to get access to Elvis photos because of restrictions and the estate and record companies are very limited. As far as visuals for books. now, I will say, my dear, friend, Andrew's salt. WHO's familiar to Gold Mine Readers HE GOES ON SOFA entertainment he owns the Ed Sullivan Show Library. And there's no one in Sullivan. Youtube Channel and he gave me a black and white photo of Elvis from fifty six I think on the Ed Sullivan show. So I had a picture of Elvis to start the chapter. But I had some concerns about I need some visuals him. But I said, well, this chapter could probably work. It's Elvis Presley. You show picture from the started. Then we go into the sixty eight comeback special and I told Bob Say I'm doing this thing he said. You know what's Kinda cool I just I just found in got. An ACETATE Of the if I can dream from bender how productions of Elvis Presley? And and he scanned the label copy for me and in the chapter. And that visual is something that people are bringing up to me because. Guys like you and gold mine you Kinda dig seeing label copies and first printings of stuff even if there's a Typo or something. And I and I. So I have a really rare Presley item courtesy of this guy who happened to just obtained a copy of this thing. So the collector mentality lives which nitel. I WanNa thank you for writing this book. Thank you for coming on the PODCAST and listeners user. Pick up Docs that rock music that matters by Harvey Cougar. Nick is his new book and it's published by other world cottage and do you find yourself? You're you could get this online correct besides going into the big Lincoln Amazon it's all. It's all out there and you know support Amazon books there And Part of it is for people that are film students are going to school to be directors or actors, or Wannabe in the film and video business and all that The book was also partially designed as you brought up earlier. For the academic world of professors and teachers because I, made it a point to ask Murray Lerner about camera angles or D- a Penny Baker about film stock I mean it's certainly not one of these hard core academic techs, texts about how to make movies and all that, but I did bring in. Aspects of. How to shoot live rock and roll numb. How how these people like the Maze Lewis Brothers who did give me shelter? And I don't even that Gimme shelter. Think, you've ever seen Gimme shelter chronicle that way. Well I. One thing I noticed in there is that the tour manager you? Sam, Cutler. one of the stones bodyguards I can't remember his name now county funches Yes said that the tore manager was unfairly blamed and. And You know I I'm you agree with that? I totally agree and again, maybe this is fate and destiny and I think. One of the and I would encourage rolling stones fans N- If if you love the movie GimMe Shelter Yes I suggest you read the chapter. Not Because you remember is the movie a hundred times and I have quotes from Keith Richards, and Ronnie Schneider of APCOA Co.. But The most important thing to me about that chapter and I know that it resonates to the reader. I went to Westerly College with a guy named Tony funches. That's the body guard. Right right now. Now I know what you read that chapter you were stunned with the Rick, the reflections that Tony Gaze Mate. Read them before. Well, that's. Right, it's a heavy. Blow your mind interview people behind the scenes they'll be they're not guarded. They don't WanNa give scripted. But also remember why the Tony Thing is special for me not because he left the planet a couple of years because you saw him in the movie for the first time with your friend in a movie theater. Hardy be putting himself through college for. Two years at West Valley College working in the School Library I think a dollar seventy, five, an hour. And a guy named Tony funches would come in who was the student body president as college. The first semester it opened and he was a little older than all of us. He was there on the G. I. Bill. And he had been a Vietnam vet and I'm sitting there. At this college with a student deferment making sure I wasn't going to see. And then I knew him I just knew him. I met him a dozen times at least maybe had lunch with them a couple of times. He was just Tony Student Body President. We talk a little bit about music. But then he didn't show up the next year at College. I said Oh some people make an impression, but then you never see them again. I think go to see this movie. Shelter with my friend Robert Sherman who worked at the library with WHO Tony Funches as well and we turned each other and said. That Tony funches. An and and and we kind of said, wow, no wonder he wasn't it college. Okay decades go by many many many years go by and maybe ten years ago I could have done this through facebook, but I don't use that device. Because I sort of like the way things come to me organically on occasion. I taught to Tony funches over the years not daily or yearly, but he made an impression. I get a phone call from a couple of friends of mine big doors, fans, I mean one of them was actually living in the former residents of Jim and Tamla. And Laurel. Canyon. And they were doors, fans, and they they went to Colorado. And they tracked down Tony Funches who had gone into security work working for Berry fe concert promoter in Denver his continued in this world of Of Security personal security they they tracked down Tony Funches to talk to him about the doors. And in the conversation. One of the guys rob. Healer mad king said. Do. You remember Harvey Coober Nick who went to West La College at Tony said, give me his phone number immediately. He called me on the phone and Matt and rob arranged for Tony to come out to Laurel Canyon to Lewis Jim Morrison's for residents because Tony after Gimme shelter and the Rolling Stones did eleven months as Jim Morrison's bodyguard. Right yes and he walked into that House I hadn't seen him since nineteen, sixty nine this is. Five years ago maybe. He's carrying a copy of my book on Laurel Canyon. and. The first words out of his mouth. Well I mentioned in the book is Can't you know he? He? He just was it was such a great thing to embrace him and see him and spend six and seven hours talking to him and doing a formal. Interview and black movie script. He said he said everybody. Let. Let's touch base tomorrow. John Dinsmore, is coming by to pick me up right now. I mean welcome to Hollywood, well what I would love to do. You know how in Hollywood you always have these. People on the side of St I. Don't know if they have them anymore but used to sell tour guides. I would love to have. Stars I would love to have some book and I know you could provide it of actual photographs and details were all these musicians lived where you just said Jim Morrison loved where Jim Morrison there more dive bars that he used to go to than anything. We're Dennis Wilson lived when Charlie Manson's girls took over some parliament. You know that even the sworded bits of history. I have to say there's a little bit of that in the Alison ellwood documentary and Laurel Canyon, that's hungering able where you actually see the houses a Joni Mitchell and people like that, and and over the years there's an. residences you know sort of profiled I know Robert Landau a photographer, he was taking pictures. Of The billboards on sunset strip. In the late sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties. Henry Dill seems to take people doing this kind of chronology. Yes. Because there is a see as I pointed out to you. There is a hunger. For West Coast. Audio Art. Now that's why I mean in November? Chris. Hillman is putting out his autobiography. We're starting to see more autobiographies coming out from west coast you know L. A. based artists. and so I'm part of that. Of course I. Think I've done that all along with my first book or turn up the radio or the book on Laurel Canyon Enter the book on One, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty, seven and I know certainly doing the the Neil young book and the Winter Calling Book I brought people into the world of right of Neil Young. I mean, I think one thing and this goes to my. I don't know I don't know if it's ability destiny. Or Chronology. But. I might be one of the few people you'll ever speak to that actually saw the original Buffalo Springfield twice. That is becoming like, did you ever see the Beatles now? Part of that is because Neil young has very devoted passionate fan base. But I would think only four people are around who saw the Buffalo Springfield or actually worked in recorded at Gold Star studio where they did their first album and a little bit of the second album and I've been there the whole time. It was only this century that I was allowed. I'll use the word allowed to write books on the subject I tried for ten years before. But the industry wasn't setup. It was largely New York and I didn't have a literary ancient. So I carry the whole diy ethic constantly but all of a sudden hunger and desire for the Mamas and Papas, and the turtles in all their reissues and all these boxes and the association, and these are people that I've met grew up with saw playing their original groups and so I'm delighted when. The Association. Has An autobiography I was so happy Howard Kaelin. Did his book with Jeff Two marketing years ago the turtles and this this did not exist a ten and twenty years ago and part of it is in gold. Mine is there to come to this. Year a guy in your readers you certainly. are going to check Johnny Marr Steph, shall we say but you never turn your back on the Mamas and Papas and the turtles you do you do see the division where once you go punk rock or new wave Aegis Goff disco or glitter, and the bell bottom pants you used to wear or your parents used to wear I say you can do it all. And that's what Gold Mine does too. But you do know the rock and roll media will call it or popular culture media or bloggers or online reporters. you. You saw. Awhile ago it's changing now these people shunning and running away from shall we call it classic or heritage? Rock? Now. They realize they're you know phoebe bridges, singer-songwriter people all love. Elliott. Smith or go back to the original Bob Dylan or John Phillips songwriters before that. So all of a sudden we are. Through reissues and re releases and expanded editions and liner notes just started on the back of an album anymore they're twenty and forty page booklets now. So the chronology, the documentation. Is Getting out there and I'm the beneficiary because. I decided let's take the game or let's take it into the frame game and kind of get into the TV shows. And the DVD's in the movies that we saw and remind people. The records of the recordings are great but if you really want to know more about the people that you. Play you know audio? Checkout they look like on film or their journey, and it goes beyond you know vh one behind the music and things like that. These are. You know filmmakers. Often. Doing audio commentary on the supplemental tracks. So you really get the full. White, screen experience, and So you know I'm just delighted to tout this title but especially to a venue like yourself in gold mine people because that is hardcore collector stuff subscription audience. That can be shot. They saying when you were reading that Tony funches thing where it you marveling at his insights about ultimately I had it in my notes. Then you see I I know when I hit the ball over the fence. But I mean I think for Stones People Savy that chapter they will see a different part of that movie. Again, hand it to me. It was like I said this we disgusted and finishing up that was somebody that I. Forty five years later got to reconnect with. So that's kind of the magic of rock and roll to. Thanks for today had a great time. Thank you you Cooper Nick. It's always a pleasure when you come on the PODCASTS, don't forget goldmine listeners to go to goal by MAG. Dot Com for extra content exclusive content and a percentage off a subscription price. You can also get the print issue at select Barnes and noble stores books a million stores and record stores. The record store is listed in our record store directory. infact. So until next time has pat prince editor of gold mine will catch you on the gold mine podcast. Thanks for listening. Everybody I'm Mike. And I'm Jesse I'm Erin. And, altogether, we are the punk tree. On this show, we're going to share music that we love. WE'RE GONNA discuss how punk rock has evolved in different sub genres have developed. We're GONNA talk to bands that have been influential in shaping the music industry and our lives. Sometimes, we challenge each other to dig into bands and sub genres that we may not be into on our own. We're a proud partner, the Pantheon podcast network, and you could find across all platforms and on social media at the punk tree. We have a really great time talking about music in life with each other. So please join us. Bad. Hi. My Name is Mike Shoe and along with Lucan Russ Khandan from the band town meeting, we host the long. May you young podcast on the Pantheon podcast network? This is our Neil Young asked where we mostly talk. While going through. Mr. My Shoe. conned in boys transaction harvest and. We're pretty sure. It's the only podcast that covers neil young's musical catalog album by album and release. Why are we doing this? Because we have a neil problem of hey. We've got the in depth analysis, the historical context, the bad movie references they're all there. The long may you part cast. CHECK US out soon because it won't be long before the Pantheon folks figuring out we don't know what the Hell we're doing.
Deeper Digs in Rock: Raising Hell - Backstage Tales from the Lives of Metal Legends
"Hello this is Henry. Dilts and your listening to rock and roll. Archaeology Fan podcast presented deeper digs and raw. Hardly rock and roll archaeology project. Culture Technology and Admiral now on with the show. Hey so glad you could make it. Yeah now you've really made it. Hey so glad you could make it now. Diggers Okay Christian. Swain hair the rock and roll archaeologist with another addition of deeper digs in rock Let's see what are we doing this week? We are recording this week. At busy signal studios in Santa Clarita. And it's actually been engineered by our engineer in chief with Pantheon Mister Jerry Danielson you wanna say hi dairy. Oh well there you go. Well the okay. That was good. Okay so we have another new podcast for you on the network And that is called Rock and Roll Heaven and it is hosted by two wonderful ladies out of Los Angeles L. D. and T. E. Linley Tracy if he asked me but That's what they go by and rock and roll heaven is A show where They discuss the lies in careers and deaths of iconic musicians throughout history. And it's a weekly show so They do about three a month So definitely check this out It's it sounds like a lot of fun and we are real excited to have. L. D. and T. E. on the network so I'm on the road this week remote if you will So I'm not going to bore you with all the marketing and business of Pantheon podcasts except to say hey. Go to Pantheon. Podcasts DOT COM to find Every bit of information you would want to know about us and yes patriae on if you want to be a patron join a patriot. Patriotic Dot Com backslash rock and roll. Podcast that singular And you can be like New member David Greenberg who just gave a pledge In the last week. Thank you very much David. We greatly appreciate it so Tell a friend do it yourself and then get your friends to do it. That would be great. That would be a big help. It helps us to cover the costs of all the shows that we are presenting to you at one other thing before I go Let me say that. We've had some people send some mail Complaining about the main feed And I I understand You know we put All of the shows in the main feed As they come out and we kind of think of that as like a music magazine. So it's you know it's like opening up rolling Stone magazine. You don't read every article you read only the ones that interest you that the headline makes you go. Wow I WANNA see the rest of that And that's the kind of the same concept with the main feed if you don't Like a particular show or podcast or an episode Just skip it you know and most importantly every show does have its own feed out there as well so if you only like certain shows make sure you subscribe to those feeds in your favorite podcast platform and you can skip The main feed. But if you do you'll miss some of the new things that are coming out that you can sample and taste and see if you like them all right so keep that in mind okay. That's it that's the business. Let's move onto the show. Simple breath trade all the way. Wow Wow played told Dole that all wrong on bladder vow go all right. Everybody said this week We have a John Wieder Horn as our guest. Jonathan author of several Heavy metal books Most famously louder than Hell The definitive oral history of metal And now he's just released a kind of a companion to to that That book it's called raising hell backstage tales from the lives of metal legends. It's it's more of a kind of. I like to call in bathroom books. You know. It's one of those things that you can just pick up and point your finger at a particular page and just start reading 'cause it's mostly the short clips and interviews with just a ton of Of meddlers out. There I mean you. You have twisted sister Black Sabbath. Judas pre slipknot slayer lamb of God disturbed megadeath of go. Garath municipal waste and throw down. I mean you've got guys from all of those bands Chiming in talking about Their their stories. Yeah so it's seventeen chapters of these little snippets from just a ton of interview from you. Know the most famous and infamous Meddlers of all time And in some of these chapters are great. I mean they're they're obvious Expectations like you know breaking the law. Yes Judas priest song but literally these guys breaking the law out there You know happy. Drunks and UNHINGED UNINHIBITED IDIOTS You know The chapter three is A take as needed for pain from we'd warriors to smack addicts you know drugs and all that revelation nausea technicolor rainbows. And Yuck malts for you. All Chapter Five Girls Girls Girls Groupie strippers in chicks and rock. I won't go through them all but you know it's life on the road. It's life being a heavy metal player out there it's forwarded to buy Exodus and slayer guitarist Gary Holt And it's just a fun read. I really enjoyed just picking it up and perusing through it and find something to laugh at Or to go Jesus. I can't believe they did that or got away with it. So that's that's that's what it's about and we're going to get into it here so ladies and gentlemen let's meet. John Leader unsuspecting victims. Jasmine data concern Welcome to deeper Dixon Rock Giana. We'd learn how you doing today. I'm doing well thanks. How glad to have you on the show before we dive into raising hell up. I tell us about how you were forced into becoming a metal journalist against your own best interests certainly was against my own best interest. And it's a careful what you ask for scenario but I always loved music and Discovered metal at a fairly early age along with the Classic Rock and alternative and and you know different forms of Of Rock punk hardcore Metal was something that that I gravitated to regularly. And Kinda Kinda Really. The whole idea of the of the culture of it in the the power of it really fascinated me and probably got me through many teenage years but You know having this knowledge of music and metal Put me in a pretty good position. When I I've always been a fairly strong or at least interested writer and in high school I did some writing for the school paper and I was able to get a couple of pieces on on music and musicians but it wasn't really until I went to college at Boston University majoring in journalism and communications. That's you know. I had some great teachers and and I got a firm foundation in general reporting in Reporting Crime Scenes Reporting County Council meetings. The real one. Oh one stuff right but I worked for the shoe leather stove. Well no but I you know I always I worked at school paper and and there were these opportunities to get records for free if you wrote about him like. Wow that sounds cool. Yeah S- I ended up doing some reviews and I thought well you know I love talking. Did you know that that's really just slave labor but sure pretty much And you know I. I already done lots of profile stories on on people from various realms of life I thought what if I could do this with musicians to I was a big reader of a lot of music press cream rolling stone and the Karang you know even hit prater and circus kind of crossed my desk so You know I'd always had an interest in that and it was sort of a dream to be able to write for some of those publications not even realizing at the time that it was something I could work to do. And and Foolishly believing at the time that anybody who had byline was doing super well financially. If you can't this magazine gotta you gotTa be having made already live lifelock just like those rockstars right like kind of like saying anybody who's got a record out while you got. Yeah you're rich. Badgen somewhere so Anyway in in college I did a semester abroad in London and places a metal journalist to go. I was great but it was with a program through Boston. University and They hooked us up with internships throughout the city And having been in journalism program they had various magazines and They weren't really websites at the time. So really newspapers and magazines to work with. I hit expressed that. I was very interested in music and would love to work somewhere. Like a Karang or enemy or something like that. Yeah well funny. Enemy hadn't really crossed my my radar at that time It wasn't as available in the states or at least that wasn't where I gravitated towards so they got back to me and offered me history today. I said Really History Today magazine. It's just you know is there. Is there anything in the Music Field? So my adviser got back to me. Dare to literacy. Well we're sorry that Karang has taken but there's a magazine called Melody Maker that's interested in In having an intern and I said great you know. I wasn't super familiar with publication but I ran out and bought copies and at the time. They were this early nineties. They were all over the British Yeah Yeah even always listening what was coming. Yeah yeah well it was. Yeah it was a stone roses in Charlotte. Uk We'll be audio as charlatans in the UK and so the Manchester that Manchester. Yes exactly happy Mondays at Manchester scene and Being a fan of classic rock and Psychedelia. I was able to tap into a lot of that stuff Because a lot of those guys were taking crazy. Drugs and making wildly trippy music But I I really enjoyed it and then found bands that approached it from more of a punk angle Jesus and Mary chain who really cranked up the distortion and and certainly my buddy Valentine but I also made it clear to my editors that Interns on the bottom of the totem pole doing calendar listings press releases. But I said you know I'd love to do reviews or or something and you know the band faith. No more that have that crossover appeal and grunge was just starting to To Take off. So you know They they gave me some you know. Give me an opportunity really to to Get out to some of the clubs in and do some reviews of some of the bands like soundgarden. Nirvana who were just starting to really cross the radar over there and then I remember reviewing a few metal albums for them which no one else said. The magazines wanted to touch because it was mental is not the domain of enemy and the MLB maker rhyme but faith. No more were kind of a metal band and they suspend the alternative realm zone. I was able to review their show and write about their album. And I did some actual thrash metal albums too. They let me do No more color by the band coroner which was a stretch for them but I guess they wanted a little bit of metal content in there because there were other publications like sounds and Hip NOT HIP REITER. Karang and and and Metal Hammer so In any case I got to do a lot of writing for them and then we came back to the states. I was a stringer for them. And it really brought me into the world of metal journalism so When I graduated from Boston University I did an awful lot of writing really from the ground up and there were so many fanzines and Sort of lower tier magazines like alternative. Press and Ray gun and all of the all of the Record stores had publications. So you know record source God. What are they giant John? You're talking about things that some of our listeners believe is ancient history And maybe and maybe never really existed exactly but tower tower records was an institution and I got to write their metal section for their for their magazine pulse and do a bunch of articles and interviews for them. So I know I'm dating myself here. I'm straying from the you know. Content of of the book but working my way through the kind of journalistic field over the years I wrote for many different magazines and was on staff at Rolling Stone and MTV and Guitar Magazine and eventually got the point where I was like. Well you know I Kinda WanNa do a book. I've reached this level where I'm writing for all these publications but you know if you write a book you must be a millionaire. I had an agent and sadly he recently passed which is homer but He had a lot of experience working with music. Books and working with Iconoclasts Lake Members of the hells angels. I think you guys name is Sonny Barge Al. I might meet Sonny Barger Birger Barger. Yeah it is book and He he was his fellow. That'll fit into one of my upcoming questions. So okay all right so sonny barger. Did you write a book about? I don't remember that. No no no not at all. Oh My oh. Your agent was familiar with that said You know the book about metal. Mike Yeah I would love to do a book about about mental at the time. Judas priest was thinking of doing a full book a A memoir and He he asked if I knew about them and wanted to do and I'm like absolutely. He acted like he was mind. He's like right you know he'll interview the band for about three months in this long to turn it in and pay this amount of money that's awesome. Let's let's roll this little. Did I know that there were proposals? Involved and other side actually said Yeah. We want to do a book. So you know they had to say that and they didn't They were kind of contemplating at the time. They decided they'd hold off So he said well what if he did a book about the history of Metal said? Yeah you know. There's a lot of good history books about metal and I said you know one of my favorite books about Punk is. Please kill me by leg. All Neil Yeah tastic. Thorough oral history of the early days of punk and It was done in a in a in a way that really focused on the experiences and the lifestyle of of the musicians and of the people who were in the various scenes so I ended up with a A contract with Harpercollins to do a book on metal called Louder. Than Hell and that was about seven years ago My agent thought I should work with another writer on it which was very sensible because we ended up with over a thousand pages of insane transcripted material And the book was received really. Well it was. You know pretty thorough oral history from the nineteen sixty to the present day. and Had good access to a lot of bands having interviewed dumb for different magazines and websites and newspapers. As did my my co writer Catherine Chairman But what I found really interesting about the book and most exciting. Wasn't the parts where the artists talked about how they got together or you know what they did and Liam origin story right. Yeah Yeah how they got signed him. It's all very important to the history. But then they also told stories about what was going on in the scene at the time. You know what what the people were doing you know. What the Culture was about if there were drugs. Involved what they were You know if there are rivalries what they were they were actual fights who they were with an Anna and that fascinated me And I guess it comes from really the living vicariously through rock and roll. Looks like No one hair here gets out. Alive Danny sugarman in. Yeah Yeah Book. An and hammer of the gods of hours and then in a more modern context Neil Strauss did a couple of of very In-depth memoirs On the dirt by Motley crue more specifically in a Merrill recently made into a movie. Yeah in fact veteran just on net flicks last year. After many many years of development right she ation Yeah development so that You know led me to this is fascination in that type of content which I knew people loved because it worked out so well knees bestselling books So I thought you know well if I'm going to do another book on Musicians I'd already done several actual memoirs working with artists as their guest writer with writer so it says by Scott Ian of anthrax in tiny letters with John Horne so it's not spoke with which was awesome and oh I bet I bet he's a fascinating guy. Yeah Yeah Bright Fascinating and I did Al Jorgensen from ministries book which would a wild rollercoaster ride into the lined up. Although smart he's witty and and and Certainly has lived the life and so that was that was a thrill to do one of their book before. Did raising hell just to give you. The full history was a book on agnostic. Front's Frontman Roger Merete. Who You know was a big part of the hardcore scene in New York and helped nurture it and develop it and really was one of the kingpins of there's a recent documentary done on On the band called Godfathers of hardcore which was on showtime and which is been really well received. My book came out shortly before that But it was clear that they had a good following. Having Been Pioneers of of hardcore and Roger just open it opened up and and you know told me all about his abusive childhood and and his years selling cocaine to try to keep the band afloat and his time in jail having been caught dealing cocaine and what it was like to be behind bars for eighteen months. Really tense stuff you know. Kinda like Art Is the new black type. You know material There are a few others that fit in that cat categorized Wayne Kramer from the MC five a similar story. You know. It's not a unique situation but I you know and that is i. Think a threat in the in the new book as well in that You know These guys have a persona of being incredibly dangerous and on the edge and you know not totally like that no no but but a lot of them have lived that kid in a candy store kind of experience. And that's what I wanted to get across with the new grazing. Hell I had already done a history of metal book and my favorite parts. Were kind of crazy story so I thought what if I did it? Book just on all these wild stories things because through the years. I've just heard so much stuff and I thought if I cherry picked a bunch of guys who I knew had those stories and had lived Wilde's You know indulgent lives and lived to tell about it and we're willing to tell about it that I could really have an interesting book here. Yeah and It it it worked out I was able to get marquee names You know guys like Corey Taylor from slipknot. E Snyder from from twisted sister of course Gary Holt of exodus and slayer and he. He actually wrote the forward to the book which I was. Very very grateful and flattered about So you know it. David Draymond from disturbed so there are some really big names. But then I also wanted to tap into some guy's all the way you know reaching from the top and going down to the scale and the scale So you know. This is an awful lot of people from the thrash era of metal who have really interesting stories to tell like the death. Angel guys You know they're doing pretty pretty well. Now they've maintained a career through decades but they were right there on the ground floor as teenagers when Metallica were becoming rockstars and they were pals and San Francisco seem. Yeah TALLEC has little brothers. So they were taken to these these wild parties after shows it ruthies and They were able to regale me with with stories of things that metallic talk about any more Like You know at one point. They were at this party and James Hatfield and the singer of exodus. Paul bail were were just all about destruction so they smash someone's pinball table Game you know the glass and I guess started trashing the rest of the house in your house. It all sucks. It's horrible thing but a lot of that did go on. Destruction was par. For the course with the excess. And Indulgence of metal and guys trash tells and trash their own bosses and dressing rooms and it's all. It's all part of the rock-n-roll mythology that really just dates back to the days. Who in Mon even before at the original Jerry Lee Lewis know in a in a gun? I'll get you some right there You Know Chuck Berry and You know in a teenager. I'll get you another chapter. So yeah I anti starts very early and just continues all through the The age of rock and roll and metal's always been about excess indulgence so Allow these guys were were cool with talking about these things especially the ones who had been there and done that and now had families and and You know kids in. They were clean and sober. And in many cases eating wants talk about their wild sexual romps but they were okay talking about their drug days and days of destruction. Some now that we're in the METOO moment Nobody moment we. Nobody was talking about their experience but asked me all about the drugs. Since most of that's leaking there is you know. Despite the metoo movement some guys did really open up In very graphic detail and I think they did so because whatever they engaged in was with. Full consensus consensual. Yeah Oh you know. I've been a musician my whole life in my early days. I got to experience some wild and crazy times and it was always more than consensual. I can in fact if anybody was the Trying to stop it would be more me than than than the other side I wrote about it so this is not your first metal Rodeo. You've you know you've you've been working on this for a long time but before I ask another question I want. I want to just get one more thing about you. What what's the first band that you discovered on your own metal band or no in general just you the first you know piece of music like you know like I. I have I had aunts and uncles and brothers. Who who like I got the hand me downs and you know the Beatles and I knew who the stones were an American things like that. But there's a very particular ban that I know that I found on my own and this was my first ban in and everything Builds from there so what was yours. Oh okay well You know my I inherited my parents. Classical music collection developed an appreciation for Bach. Beethoven Tchaikovsky. And you know all kinds of good fundamental fast. The music romantic so from also. Especially if you're going to fall into the metal world which you know probably hearkens to the classical sense is yeah but you know I was. I was seven or eight or nine in it wasn't I hadn't hit that rebellious stage yet. and then. I had a friend in school. Danny Papkin who consequently many years later started a band called candy machine. I believe out of Baltimore but He was he was a really really a nice kid. Six grade I think And he was a a music fanatic so he he exposed me to to to springsteen and the WHO Bunch of different things and Zeppelin. Of course and what? I what I heard and loved was distorted guitar but I didn't know what it was. I couldn't tell from a Beatles Song like My Guitar gently weeps to you. Know the WHO's my generation. What was that buzzing sound? So He who he played guitar is like. That's distortion distortion cool. I got to hear more. Okay and what's what's what's it when these guys like. Make these noises in. It's not a full guitar sound. But it's more like a bunch of little notes that follow each other. Oh that's a guitar solo so really I was. You know I was in the one a one level of of Discovering rock and roll and and he was the first to to push me in the direction of of that but the WHO is my first real real there we go and and I think they. They planted a lot of the roots of the Debauchery decay anger and Energy that did ended up a destruction. Certainly but that became a big part of what metal was in. It is So they're one of the first bands I can really think of it was it was explosive like that and I saw the Tommy movie when I was twelve. Maybe and blew my mind with all these psychedelic scenes and Clapton was in it. And you had Roger daltry playing the deaf dumb and blind kid So yeah I had a really special spot from for the WHO that was. When I started putting up pictures of my locker you know from there just spread cheap trick was my next love and member going to a head shop in Bethesda Maryland where I lived and not knowing what the bonds were or or you know marijuana pipes but knowing the dudes in the back of the store showed the movies on a big screen of of rock and roll gigs. I WanNa Know Me and my mother twelve year old friend as a kid named Danny CROC We went back there and we requested artists. And it. You guys have anything by Kiss Sure we'll put on a kiss video for this before. Mtc So You know we were able to to seek cheap trick on stage and cars and WHO and and it was all you know a big part of my my my formative years. I'd say the first metal band that really hit me with something. My cousin introduced me to cause I been listening to all his all this music and kiss Zeppelin and even had been exposed to rush but My first cousin goes At there at the House of Might my cousins in Rockland New New York and sitting by the Pool. Geigo pulls out his boombox he says. Hey you wanna hear something crazy and got her always have something crazy. Like how your brain did he hit the play button and it would. I hear these motorcycles revving. These guitars start chugging. Like sounds pretty pretty interesting it was Judas priest. Hell bent for leather title track from that album and I had never been exposed to that kind of metal light her a little bit black Sabbath mostly I was still in the kind of ACDC A led Zeppelin World Aerosmith. And this was a cut above the guitars. Were razor sharp vocals or screamed and everything was just repulsive in ferocious and I lost my mind I just I. This is my band. I have to discover this. I've been nobody knows who these guys are. Of course it became one of the biggest bands in metal still are for good reason But yeah that was a long winded answer. But that was I spent I totally latched into from the from the WHO Into cheap trick little side John. A little side tracks and then to Judas priest right right but There are a big part of the you know Evolution metal because really before them had black Sabbath which would the definitive footprint the stomping boot in the cement but they even had their influences. They were heavily influenced by cheer and Corinne Eminent People like Bait right and and and Hendrix but then on the other side in states you know you had blue cheer MC five the stooges and they were also generating this this loud. Almost pro metal is what I like to call it Alice Cooper but then Yeah Black. Sabbath put down the talent boot and from then on it was All the devils well I. I think it's fair that we begin with Black Sabbath and And their most famous bad boy Since all metal begins with the boys for Manchester To me it seems like the craziness within that particular ban is all about Ozzy and less so about Tony Geezer and bill. Right you know. Ozzy was the one who is most out front and outrageous but Wow you know They were all off the rails on Of not the first album actually the first couple of albums. They were pretty straightforward and clean and sober and dedicated. And then you know they got on the road and and they gotta taste cocaine and they got You know all the booze they could they could possibly Hold on a bus or airplane and just went over the deep end Ozzy was the most affected by it. All the other guys really weren't far behind and and you know a billboard. The drummer very easily could have died of a heroin overdose I think that's been well documented. And also he was a heavy drinker and Tonio Mian his book talks about just the excessive amounts of cocaine. They'd have salad bowls full of cocaine backstage. would have loved to have that kind of stuff in raising hell but I had a lot of it in the in the you actually step away from Some of the bigger stories. Yeah like Ozzy and the pissing on the Alamo or You know The famous big metal Swedish death metal burning churches and people eating. Cannibalism and stuff like that. I think that is in your previous book. there's avoided them because yeah. I covered all that stuff extensively in in louder than hell but also because I've covered it. There have been movies about Arctic magazine articles about it. Everybody knows about poor. Urawa masseuse stabbed to death by Varga. Kournikova made black metal and national commodity at that point. You're international and everybody knows that that Ozzy ahead also various creatures. And and you know these are these are tried and true pieces of metal lower so I kind of steered clear of all that and I wanted to create or hear from these people about other legends and and really expose what their lifestyle and culture was about as they as a kind of went through decades of of of metal evolution. Add in what it all to be about accessing debauchery. So you know I. I had a lot of it A lot of chapters. Also about the touring life and playing shows. In the worst accident someone could possibly have falling off stage and breaking ribs or bones and other bones Onstage experiences. There's there's a great great band Dylan escape. Plan WHO'S Guitarist Ben Wineman is madman on stage and I think he just goes into another zone and just start smashing into things while he's playing in you know diving into camps and frequently has exited. The stage bloodied and on more than a few occasions has has broken bones You know and to me. That's that's the ultimate dedication in your art E- pop rolling around and Shari Shards of glass but almost even to a greater extent And I thought that kind of stuff was really worth worth talking about so for the books. I created this pretty much a wish list of topics I wanted to address and then I thought well each of these topics could be related to a song so I kind of did a little research and to think too hard because girls girls girls. Hey there you go you gotTa Motley crue in Chapter Groupies So but then I thought you know. Welcome to hell is a song by Venom. You know. One of the leaders of the thrash metal movement who are also kind of a pioneer of black metal Sang an awful lot about Satan. In Devil went far and beyond. What other bands were doing? It's time even though it was very tongue in cheek and sticky wall. And that's a that's a that's something I wanted to explore. That isn't isn't it a mostly tongue in cheek and more Halloween You know black Sabbath For example a lot I think they. They're the first to kind of get a hung with the the seat. Nece label and the fact is they were big fans of English Hammer horror films. Right sure yeah. But they were also interested in the occult and you know It all comes around Alister Crowley Alison Krauss. I could I So you know there's the dabbling that Geezer Butler did in the cult in the lyrics he wrote about the occult but then you know he wrote You wrote the Song Black Sabbath. After having experience where he woke up in the middle of the night and saw an apparition at the foot of his bed and it clearly wasn't a friendly a friendly visitor and he got this This feeling that. Wow you know if you continue dabbling in in in the subject matter and going down that road there will be a price to pay so I think at that point. He took his alister. Crowley books. Probably gave him to ozzy but I think he's eighty throw them away. Solan Jimmy Page along the castle right. Yeah but So so you know There would there were dabbling with these guys were also they were. Christian and or at least they believe raised Christian of C. V. and all that right but then Sabbath did awful lot of material about you know what if and you know. Maybe she'll watch what you say because you know there's there's punishment on the other end so they were able to have both ends of the spectrum tip to play with up but they also commented about war and they had it to- dabbled in politics and Sylvia they were far from which was expected at the time that Especially when those guys uh started out And there hey do us a favor you know. This is a general rock and roll Interview show here But get can you give us a very quick history of mental from your perspective history of metal will you had black. Sabbath created the Template Power Chords. Maybe the three headed monster of Sabbath deep purple and And I know some say Zeppelin although some don't like Zeppelin in the metal right right yea I think Zeppelins were precursor to metal. Don't think they hadn't metallic songs. And certainly some subject matter they dealt with with the fantasy and the Druids and whatnot was a token ESCA. Writing Tally Yeah. That'll would would make that part of their repertoire. for me yeah it was it was. Sabbath You know you had deep purple and then there are other bands kind of the cusp. The Miller Fudge. Yeah they were the they they get loud. They could fit into that But but the elites that new wave of British metal. The kind of really is the beginning of truth. That was the next. Gen and blacks black Sabbath. Judas priest came from that Birmingham region that that Black Sabbath were in and they. They knew the guys you know they were. They were friendly and yeah I think they re initially got signed to their says. The same management company Yeah and then and then priest kind of raised the bar a little bit They took Types of power chords. That Sabah's was was playing in the the minor key You know I guess licks or or rhythmic approaches. there's a thing called the devil's triacetone. Yeah very well known as as something that Sabbath brought to the fore music So they took the roles that Sabbath laid down or at least some of the the procedures with which they created their music and Just up the ante screams were were louder. Higher pitched The vocal parts were rob. Helfer is phenomenal vocalist so he had a multi octave range and he could wail or he can sing perfectly on pitch and in a Pop esque spectrum hardly pop music. But then you had to guitarists so you didn't just have Tony. Omi riffing around there and creating slow dumi sounds you had sped up tempos and You had Glenn Tipton and Downing both playing which which gave them the abilities to create counter melodies and to do Twin Guitar Leads Have One guy play lead than the next guy would and they do. Guitar harmonies much in the vein of wishbone Ash. th the Guinard so and so forth So that brought another facet to meddle I think they were instrumental in in that whole wave. And what became the new wave of British heavy metal which brought us iron maiden and Saxon and Raven you know even To a certain extent DEF LEPPARD. They were part of that first. Wave of the new wave of British heavy metal. Although they after a couple of albums they quickly became much more of a commercial metal and today but With metal after the new wave of British heavy metal movement the label start seeing money and the ban started making a lot more money and There were places to go. That hadn't hadn't been tried. The new wave of British heavy metal was mostly an insular scene and until people outside of England discovered it And were enthralled by it You know you had famously lars though Alrich in Jewish Ashton to get into the thrash scene but even before they'd Ronnie James Dio who you know was was in Rainbow Black Sabbath after Ozzy. Let the band Zone and had his own band deal and then you had the commercial battle that was coming out of La Hair metal stuff and thank her mouth but at the same time even Europe you know you had the Scorpions and accept came out of German. So so there was this globalization of this of the sound and then L. A. Took it and brought it into a new level of of the visual theatricality With the th that they've gotten from from groups like kiss and also Glam band like yeah this being and slade and the slade were were heavily. The loved by quiet riot. Who's WHO's now would. Most famous songs relates But it was certainly the sunset strip in those bands. Motley crue rat doc in Now the list goes on and on Wasp an and these people played the same kinds of clubs every week and and by that time Van. Halen were already huge and they were on. The periphery a metal but Menelik. You Know Guitar God Eddie. Van Halen was oh big. Hooks big hooks big maladies war. Yeah party but more party ban Also contributed to the party aesthetic of the of the La scene and sunset strip scene and What other kind of music is really gonNA come out of that part of La? So you know you had this this upgraded element of debauchery or at least do as much more in the forefront an MTV. Put the videos on which had characters. Like Bobby Brown Tony Tawny tonic tank contained within the lovely town lights like now but Yeah these these Scantily dressed young ladies who were in these videos and it kind of injected that sex aspect into into rock and roll on and and there's no question. These guys were having a field day. I mean this was before the age of AIDS really and These were girls who were were young and looked at rockstars as icons and you know they could sleep with these rockstars. Young is willing and writer Cap. Yeah so Needless to say tons of bands took advantage of these opportunities. And I think a good time was had by all With the alcohol and drugs fueling the whole experience And that's what metal became as a stereotype in the eighties and stereotypes. Very much built on unreality. But there were some people who didn't really like the sound of a lot of these these eighty bands. Who More and more frequently were encouraged. Both by their labels and also internally to become more popular an appeal more to the ladies so they did more of these The the power ballads yes absolutely the power ballad became the The signature of every every metal band had they had to have one when people still use bic lighters waving the air and That's brought the girls into the picture. Really all right. Hold on let me stop you what do you think is the Best Power Ballad Song of written? I used to hate them all God you know although they weren't a power ballad band and would have been shamed in the beginning for thought that they would ever do one nothing else matters by By Metallica. Just you know just gets to me. It's who touching you know a touching song I liked doc in and I liked rat and molly true but I I didn't. I tend to like their heavier material a dock and did alone again. That's probably the first power ballad. I heard by them that I felt as a as a teenager who wasn't Having girls surrounding me the way Eddie van Halen was feeling really kind of alienated That's the kind of song night. I sat and listened to thought while they're like and of course that brought out the teenage angst in the rage and made you listen to Iron Maiden and Judas priest in all the fast angry stuff Which brought in punk and punk you know. Fueled a faster and heavier kind of metal and I think motorhead can be widely credited with With Stores Yeah. Yeah they even open doors for punk bands and certainly hardcore. Yeah but Loiseau Rick loved motor head and he loved the bands that came out of out of the British seen And I think a lot of people that time. We're ready for a change from from this hair metal from these power ballads and wanted to have faster music in the vein of of the hardcore bands or or punk bands like Gbh. But with the musicality of summer like Judas priest so That's where I think all at once there was a movement where you had in La slayer was making music just kind of starting out. New York anthrax were just starting out and then of course on the West Coast which is where the big Kahuna has were Although L. as the west coast of San Francisco was the breeding grounds for Italica Allen I exit testament and you know so many other other great bands that Burst the doors open really so then we go from thrash and like. I said I don't want to go too deep in each of those right but now now now it begins to fragment a little bit and you have like various black metals and death penalties and Swedish death metal. And God. If you don't get the names right you're going to get the cards and letters of hatred from From fans right absolutely I think thrash was the last real kind of unifying piece of like. Oh this is the next step for the next. Yes way gap. Then these guys wearing sweatpants and dirty shirts in who weren't doing blowers or scoring chicks and were watching horror movies. All the time created this music. Death Metal There are a couple of main figures from that Chuck Shuldiner from the ban. Death was a big big part of that. And this is where we're singing. The traditional rock and roll form begins to shift quite dramatically as well. Yeah I'm in a slayer growled and Possessed were right on the cusp of death metal. Some argue that their first album was death metal But this is where the cookie cookie. Monster growling came in and these bands didn't even try to sing and some of them weren't even uttering words in their in their screeches and growls and You know horrifically Agonize Vogel's even more primal in Florida. Yeah gargling with with with broken glass and with that came faster drumbeats and more aggressive guitars of Wilder Solos. And of course you have heroes from kind of each each movement but from there the the idea is what can you do? How how much faster can you get? You know? In England you had grind core which was a little more hardcore mixed with death metal but it was still death metal and you know napalm death and carcass and those bands had a major part to do with what happened in in in in the scene over in a amateurs. I can't remember the exact location but it's spread throughout England And then for me. The I bands. That really really took it over the edge and said we'RE NOT JUST GONNA sing about it. We're GONNA live at for better or worse in most cases worse guys from the black metal scene that Came out of mostly to start with it was You know Oslo in in Bergen in different parts of of Norway And they were me. It's really cold up there in do they were motivated by death metal but and satanic metal of you know their. Viking forebearers bands like battery and You know Even man or had some of that content but but they wanted to really lay down the gauntlet and say you know we are anti Christian. We are not being a see. This is this is not like what we started with with Black Sabbath. Which was you know putting on Halloween. Every show this actually no. I this is my creed and these guys were young. They were teenagers. Who wanted to make a statement and it started out with some of them going out and burning down you know really famous or of historical churches in in Norway Dow in in Bergen and and and other other cities. And and it was. You know it was horrible and couple of guys who were at the forefront of it stupidly Paraded what they had done and done did interviews with with the local newspapers and didn't shy away from their actions. So they apply. It created this lack of for lack of a better word. A firestorm of interest in this outrageousness knowing our yeah and Unfortunately violence also accompanied the the outrageousness and and it got pretty ugly even cannibalism. Well there's debate weather. The singer of mayhem. Who committed suicide with a shotgun was actually had? Bits of his brain turned into a stew. Another member Hell Hammer. I mean it's all so outrageous that it's God I don't want say comical but absurd certainly absurd and that's of course not in raising hell all of that is address on L. Young louder than like lords of chaos in certain louder than Hell But I think it was a big wakeup call to holy crap. You know we thought we were extreme. And then you know. People started just kind of mixing all kinds of hybrids and music Not Everybody wanted to burn churches. I'd say that was a very small segments on anything building. There's even state sanctioned Burns churches or or what have you so you never know murders committed by an Italian cult that we're in a metal band and they you know. They claimed that it was for the sake of mental state in. It's it's horrible stuff but I think more people came out of alternative and punk scenes and wanted to create different kinds of music. So you get all these really Interesting hybrid hardcore mixed with the kind of Judas priest style metal Death metal mixed with the a industrial music and certainly thrash mixed with electronic industrial music in a big way which is how you got industry nine inch nails and and from there the skies opened up and everybody tried everything and a doom came back had bands it came back wanting to sound like black. Sabbath again and there were so many different permutations of the sound But a lot of this was happening during a time. Where metal was on the outs. Because GRUNGE and alternative came in and right away Old Metal you know the standard stuff that Hollywood bands were doing became obsolete. The disaffected youth to a different form of music Let's let's face it Suburban white kids and mostly white kids You know You know had gravitated to Metal in in the previous decades. And now this grunge thing. Kinda gave them a an alternative path and music always goes in cycles for sure but but metal has a following that kinds of music just doesn't You know if you discover slayers a teenager. You're probably still gonNA love him when you're fifty. You may introduce your kids to them. Very will laugh at you and turn on their. Edm But you know it does. It does happen. There's just this diehard dedication attachment people develop with bands and I think that happened earlier in Rockin for sure absolutely there were diehards with with the WHO Zeppelin aerosmith and of course the grateful dead and all different genres and types. But then you know with metal. There was a new dedication where there wasn't a dedication and pop music and do wave music and even even punk. I think people listen to punk bands that broke up after three or four albums and done well. They couldn't follow them anymore. So maybe they'd follow another punk band. Or maybe they move onto something else entirely but metal's always had that really die hard following the it's it's an interesting phenomenon it is At Yeah you cannot find a more rabid a base of fans than in the metal world musically that is and It's always an interesting question of exploration of why You know why that is and you know I think you know my my My theory if I can expand just a little bit is is you know the the the the music itself is based on electric guitar which was invented in the twentieth century very industrial age and a very industrial sound and mental kind of really takes that to its furthest extent in a world of of an industrial world of which you know these kids. Live in and You know it's now played back to them. You know in this sometimes. Constraining Modern World An ability for them to act out their aggressions without actually committing crime We'll leave that to the bands and You know the Swedish death metal guys and things like that but you know most of these kids you know. They're they're they're they're the. This is an outlet and the music gives them that That outlet of the world that is surrounding them that they were born into. Yeah sure and you know. There's there's a saying that You know Hard Times Bring out a equally hard end and visceral form of art in asset when you had the Reagan Thatcher years. There are an awful lot of bands coming out. There were very pissed off and then even the nineties when people got a school like they. They never thought they'd reached the level of success. That their that their parents had gotten in. There was a real sense of disaffection across Young adults and I think that's where the the you know. Hey Myself WanNa die grunge music and it came from and a lot of the alternative rock which which really focused on aggression and angst. Yeah when you're not in a angsty aggressive times Mazer music tends to to go into a more I guess upbeat and Positive Direction. But then you always have disaffected youth. You know kids who are from divorced families or had heart upbringings or you just have something to rail against Maybe there just aren't You know content with the way the society works in anti-capitalist or or whatever but there's always those angry people those people who who have this this energy in this this Inner frustration that that that this music just Kinda. It's a purge for them. They go into a show and mosh around the pit and and it's just you know a week of stress and and Washes away in wash bit right? I think we both agree that You know it's a it's it's it is a wonderful outlet and thank God that Most of those kids can go and get That releasing as opposed to you know those horrible People who go grabbing are fifteen and shoot up a mall or something like that so so yeah blame. They blame aggressive and violent behavior on on on the basic stuff. Yeah Yeah not to bring Judas Priest back in which. I'm sure you talked about it in the last book. That's you know that that is a big moment in rock and roll of Which is complete and utter bullshit but But Yeah so you know. The book is filled with mostly short interviews of a famous in some household names and many not of the craziness found on the road and you know tells and sometimes even at home. I do like that the book. It's not really a narrative but more of a fun piece to have around and pick up and open it any page and get a story that will thriller caution. You will was that the intent. Exactly Yeah my my agent. I who it is a bathroom book and then he says some of my favorite books or bathroom but I tell totally get it. Yeah Yeah Yeah. So really yeah. It's not a narrative. Historical document meant to be read from beginning to end. It's not meant to challenge your mind. Specially although I think there are a few object lessons that that do come across but really. It's supposed to be fun and I want these stories to be entertaining. Exciting to make you laugh to make you shudder to possibly make you feel revulsion or Or feel heartbroken in the case. Man The the yeah of some some people who were in really adversary situations Because it's a it's an extreme lifestyle and it it comes with with those Those ups and downs and you guys are driving around in vans on ice covered roads and lot of have been terrible accidents. Dedication to keep doing it is astounding. Yeah you you you have to be committed to To to survive. And and make it and as we've already determined you know metal is not necessarily known as a pathway to popularity and and millions and a comfortable lifestyle You know Most of these guys are in. Beat up vans Staying in Motel Six's from from night to night You know for an opportunity to get onstage for about an hour right right exactly because it. It's it's their passion is their release. If they didn't do it with him say they go crazy. Here kill themselves and the interesting thing is even those those guys the guys who are barely making enough money to get to the next GIG Using their gas money and eating fast food a lot of them are still living these rock and roll crazy experiences trashing hotels and then realizing or knowing they're going to have to pay for it but just living they have to stay on stage they don't get to be in the mosh pits so they gotta get their release after the show but I also really wanted the book to be. You know a love letter to to to meddle into these guys and on that note like there's a chapter that was spinal tap and it's a tribute to one of my favorite films I'd always doing interviews through the years said so. What's your favorite spinal tap store like? What have you guys experienced? That could have been in spinal tap and and a ten times here. Oh yeah we got lost under a stage one but you know. Sometimes you get those nuggets of gold. So I thought what if I did a chapter about this? Let's see if we can get enough enough really good material and that's my favorite chapter of the book. It's just jumped eleven spinal tap eleven right because it goes to eleven David Draymond from from you know disturbed huge rock star standing on the top of a giant elevator descending to the stage and it just gets stuck move and he can't get out and he's not gonNA jump He's he's stuck in. The pod. Is nothing more spinal tap or even Motley crue drummer? Tommy Lee talked to me about being stuck in the The revolving drum kit while it was it was actually more like a rollercoaster drum kit that would kinda wind its way all the way around the stage and it was upside down when he got stuck it was one of their their final shows that they were filming for a DVD So it's you know it's just funny you can't make this stuff up In DC either from twisted sister had great spinal tap stories but hopefully people will read them in the book and and enjoy them for themselves. All right and as we've said now here each chapter is named after a metal song that kind of indicates the troubles ahead write your so the I I think you start off with kind of crime and And just you know you ask the question from these guys of you know what kind of Actual trouble with authorities. You've gotten into what? What was your favorite story from that chapter? Boy You know. I didn't expect this and I was really pleased that they talked about it because even abandoned Judas priest who are rock gods you know and not knowing their whole history you might not realize their past and these guys said they would steal anything. That wasn't bolted down. They were starving. Label wasn't paying them half the gigs. They played in the early days and this was really before medal became metal so they were just struggling to to get by and they stole a light from every different show that they could. They played an and built it into a lighting rig for themselves very up by individual lights. Okay a smart move. Yeah less less intelligent move perhaps was going into the kitchen area and taking a huge bag of uncooked shrimp so they ate raw. Shrimp has a show is You know to say that food and yeah. That's probably not the wisest idea that very well. I don't think it's vomit chapter what I was. GonNa say that. Get to the next few chapters which is drunks worst drugs. And then the inevitable bought vomiting. So I so. You're saying that the shrimp a theft did not make it into the inevitable. Vomiting chapter want to be honest. Maybe I I I didn't do my my Fully evolved interview. But they didn't tell me they threw up so the punchline was yeah. We even had raw shrimp innate. That you know There were other vomiting stories certainly later from other occurrences in you know with a lot of bands at comes from drink all the the two chapters before a drunk survey. Yeah so I thought that's a question I've asked throughout time because I've always been perverse that whereas like so. You know you guys drink it Tom. What's your best Puke Story and the brave Sarah Pugh? We can hold our liquor but then you get people who are like. Oh Yeah you know I party. Would Dime Bag Daryl from pan-arab boy was that a mistake? I threw up on this guy while I was You know on their bus or so. I didn't just want I drank too much and I. That's not a story to me with every chapter with every story. I really wanted something that had kind of a buildup and climax Which is the groupies chapter to? But but let's get to it so I mean Look away asked you about the crime thing. That was a great one. So what was? What's your favorite story out of the groups chapter favorite or or most disgusting author's choice? My friend well. I may have mentioned this fellow named King Fowley from the band deceased. Guess he was in a thrash metal band and Islas just dumbfounded by how open he was about The twosomes threesomes foursomes and Morrison's that he engaged in. And how graphic The graphic detail he went into There was one groupie who wanted to be with him but he wasn't so into it so you know he said well you know only be with you if you have sex with a chicken and it wasn't a live chicken but there was some some memories of the Bessette into didn't sued that perhaps is this year is a version of led. Zeppelin's mud sharks right right right right right okay. Moving on and you choose. You chose a mother daughter stories in there which are pretty That was thing apparently for a while And the mothers and daughters were both into it but Algerian soon from ministry as a particularly funny one. Yeah well I think that's the thing on porn in general but sure I'm sure that happened in in in in in the heavy metal world so So we go from from the wonderful world of sex to actual Satanists and so my question might be i. How much of this is really true? And and I think we've already kind of established it in that that at the very beginning this was all put on and there may have been some dabbling in some interest in. You know all of us You know in our youth You know are interested in anything. Certainly anything that'll piss our parents off and You know Delving into the occult would probably do that for for for most of the Mid Twentieth Century. Parents say Tannock Bible on my shelf. Yeah and I'm sure your parents were just happy about that in care. Which was God? Bless my parents. They were the best that they saw that. I was not an insane individual and that I was getting good grades and then I had peculiar interests but clearly I wasn't engaging in in in occult activities so I think they saw it and they okay. Well you know it's next. Stephen King Books Clive Barker books. So perhaps it's just a teenaged. It's a reference manual for those other bucks so but yeah there. Are you know as things progress You get people as we just discussed that Actually tried to you know imbibe that as a real thing right and beyond the Norwegian bands now there really are some some musicians that that find devil worship to be a big part of their their aesthetic and their message and in some cases. It's more of an atheistic approach to devil worship whereas instead of believing in this horned beasts to lives in the in the in the underworld it's more about The the idea. I guess it's a the Croly You know System where it's do without wilt shall be the whole of the law and So these guys don't believe in following conventional rules or standards and it's all about hedonism and kind of building yourself up to be the greatest Beast that you can A political libertarians. And something like that and I may have some of it wrong. Because that's not my vantage point. I do find it interesting that that somebody's Tannock People Satanic people. Some people who consider themselves Satanists Are Fairly Bright. And some of them extremely articulate is a guy named a Nergal from the band behemoth. He's in there and He's become a cultural figure in Poland. Easy easy as a you know a pop culture figure. He married a famous Popstar. But he still got all these These satanic beliefs or at least sincere interests That that he continues to make albums about and then there's a band called Joaquin who take it even a step further and again Daniel Eriksson from the band's very articulate and he can tell you exactly why following the path of Satanism is The Way to achieve salvation. But that you make your choices and you and you live with the consequences so he says lots of horrible things have happened to him and he knows it. That's part of the life style that he has chosen but to express himself and this is a warning to anyone who's thinking of going to a Watson show although they make pretty incredible music they bring animal carcasses. That's right yeah and put them on newly alter in the middle of the stage and there was a time where they would actually splash large volumes of blood into the into the crowd there was a takeout on. Tmz for doing that. Believe it or not which is totally absurd. they've since. Stop doing that in most venues. But if you're into that kind of there may be a ticket sale problem if they don't think I think the venues themselves Yeah we're not going down that Road Guy We don't have. We don't have a permit for that okay. This was genuine pig's blood and it reeked and I went to a show where there's once and I had to leave early. 'cause I stood in the back. I'm like if I stand in the back. It won't smell as bad there's NO L. Get hit with blood as well. I'm feeling really nauseous. Now by the fifth song you know I think I'm GonNa go get some ice cream. Well I don't know how much it real satanism. But it certainly is performance art Since you mentioned Pig's blood. I mean the next chapters are bleeding and then near death experiences so What I might ask is well. What what do you think is like the most like visceral true near death experience story you got Near death experience boy you know. There's there's a lot of them and a lot of them actually happened From vehicle accidents which initially the the die with your boots on chapter which is really brushes with death that reo falling off stage and breaking bones or Almost being hit by oncoming car or any a number of things that could have ended up in someone being killed a really although. Yeah here you go. The guy from possessed was shot at. That's going to do it Jeff Bukhara from the band possessed was very dedicated in to To his his his thrash metal music but was also selling drugs and was kind of a thug and hanging out with some unsavory folks so At one point he was a drugstore. Kiosk and He had a gun pulled on him and he was shot. He staggered out into the parking lot and tried to get away and these guys there was a guy on the left and the guy on the right both had had had guns up to him and he figured this hit. I'm definitely going to be killed. And he was he managed to I think he charged a guy in wrestle. The gun away and other guy did shoot him but he held his hand up in. The bullet knocked off half of a finger But he was probably bleeding to death lying on the ground holding his insides in when he there was a girl there who maybe it was a young kid. I E mail kid. I don't recall exactly but he was able to get help and they saved his life and now he's in a wheelchair and did Isaiah a quadriplegic but He's still performs he performs from the stage. And you know he he may not be quadriplegic because I think he has use of his upper body also still. Yeah but pretty hall huge. Yeah that's A. That's a life changing experience any way you look at it and then you know maybe the greatest revelation in this book was was the band limp. Biscuit they're bassist. Sam Rivers hasn't been with the band hadn't been with the van for years because we're back in two thousand fifteen in two thousand eighteen. Because he said he had back problems story we did have back problems but he was also a problem drinker for years and way above. And beyond what would you have a bad liver? It's in your back right. Well that's true that's true but he also had problems with the bones and joints Zana. These guys are jumping around on stage and smashing into things. In how a lot of a lot of people have done Almost irrevocable damage to their to their spines next guys from slayer megadeath. They'll had surgery from that and and spell Phil Anselmo from from Tara started taking her when he said because his back pain was so horrible and nothing else would stop it. We've lost a couple of people. Maybe not meddlers but you know. Prince. Tom Petty You know dies due to Fenton all overdose to treat. They were trying to treat their own Stage Related Injuries yeah absolutely. Yeah but that was back to Sam rivers. I mean it's a big moment In in the book. Because you know the official excuse was not what the real issue was no. He had liver disease and transplant. Yeah Yeah it had gotten so bad that he needed a transplant and he had never talked about this. You know the interview with me. He's like man. I've haven't ever told anyone this. But and then he goes on and tells me very detailed story about how he almost died in the hospital and health first liver. Transplant didn't take and they ended up having to do a second one. Why didn't know there was a second on death store? I think they came up with a match. They didn't do the full transplant but it didn't. It didn't match. They thought it did so then they had they had liver and he wasn't the top on the list so he thought that's it. I'm not reconcile you get it in. Eighty eight year in such dire condition This is what he said that That that they will take a a liver that they have and use it on the worst patient in the hospital somebody who was on. Death's door Contract I heard prior about transplants notice. pecking system. But in any case he got this liver and and recovered but he said he'd never told the store at anybody else so six months ago when I did the interview. I'm really blown away that he's he's thought of me. It's the Anna tell us exclusive to but I'm thinking wow man. This book is coming out and six months. Just no way no way. He's not going to tell the story to someone else or someone else will tell the story somewhere else but now it was. It was a secret until yesterday until this week. Yeah it's a big news item in the metal world Yeah I picked it up doing my research. It was like wow. That's that's a big deal so all right so is it And I'll let me let me go back. I do want to give the audience a little taste of of each of these. These chapters Won't spend too much time on stealing because we already kind of talked about a good story there with the the crime At the beginning but and we talked about the spinal tap situation But then then then you talk about the road. A little bit with driving in thrashing hotels. You got a favorite story out of that The trashing hotels you know it might be the machine head bus which was was completely demolished Which was a foolish thing to do? Because the guys were to hotel but instead of trashing the hotel. If you'd well will trash. The bus and the story came from the drummer a fill in drummer for the band. Who's actually now in the band death Angel And he said they're they're sitting there. The Guy's name is Wolf Carol He said they're sitting there and they just start this food. Fight on the bus and escalates into shaking up the Kansas Soda and opening them spraying them all over the place and gotten the wiring in God. All over the place plus near you know taking objects and causing physical damage instead of just liquid related damage so this bus dripping stuff and then went by the time they get off of it and then you're like. Oh this is this is back to the room and go to sleep. Knowing happened inevitably tour management or that tour manager I guess it was to our management management. Finds Out Calls. A bus company. Bus Companies Livid takes the bus away from them like you guys. You've lost your boss now at the hell are you gonNA do? And you should be ashamed you so this is not you know. Acceptable behavior and The Drummer and the guitar Guitars vocals the frontman. Kind of look at each other and snicker Ehrlich's isn't funny. This is something a lot about. You've lost your bus annexing ship. We'll get another sure enough. This is the lead band on the two you know on. The tour is the headline band. They're not going to cancel the whole tour just because they trashed their bus. Brian make them take Greyhound. I got another? Here's your bus later. Another bus pulls up they get on it. Move older stuff in the tour continues and I thought that was pretty pretty hysterical. They're also a great stories about actual destruction within hotels and a funny detail band who couldn't afford a whole lot and they jump from bed to bed just goofing around in smashing a bed to bits. And they've been staying is hotel for a week straight or so because They they had some time before the next show has tried to put the bed back together. Dry fix it in its shattered. So then he figures I'm going to go to the front desk and tell them you know what I'm not comfortable in my room. My bets not really comfortable. Can you change my room? He tries that and at the front of desks. Like you can have another room. I already know what happened in your room. You destroyed your bed cracking on another one idiots. That's just a that's more than A. Yeah we went into our hotel and trashed at story. That's something that it beginning a middle and an end and punchline. All right favorite practical joke is that that was my favorite chapter the practical jokes in spinal tap practical jokes. Practical Jokes Man There's so many funny ones of it's it's gotta be something from Dime Bag Daryl. 'cause he was the king of the pranks You know although what all all I'll go with I'll go with morbid angel. Just because they were such a dedicated fierce death metal band they arguably did have their moments where they had their their dedication to Satan. Satanism guitars would cut his arm and bleed onstage. And we drink a Chalice. These are all the legends but I think a lot of it was true. Maybe I'm completely gullible. But so anyway. These guys are on stage. The singer had previously been in catering and was very upset that the chicken was not fully cooked chickens. Have Ron I got a free design. It really threw a fit and then ended up finishing his food. So the support band. It'd be really really funny. If during the show they got a chicken and tied it up into the rafters and slowly lowered down till it was right above the head. So he's growling and plays Bass and being you know this ferocious demonic figure any notices people in the audience of crap is bandmates are laughing there. Sos FACING WHY is out? Who's a descending chicken And that's something that requires planning so look. That's a good one. That's good thing because everybody knows dime bag. Daryl from Pantera was a was a prank and sat an off. Yes yes and I used to goof around with his friends and pulled all kinds of pranks and they're all over the book too. Yeah yeah all right so you kind of finish up with like fighting Nazis and bad crowds. Those all kind of go together. I think yeah well. There's a lot of violence that occurs in the world of metal and and certainly they've been rivalries in you know one of my favorite stories from chapters is a little comical in even though it involves Nazis in awful things and fighting on my the best. Ozzy's are comical. I guess some people could see it that way. I'll look route looked at the blues brothers in the original nineteen sixty eight Mel Brooke's producers any milk but I'm so you have the biohazard a real dyed in the wool metal hardcore band from the New York scene. Tough guys these guys. Don't don't Dodge away from a fight and had been in many fights and there's a lot of fighting at their shows and in other chapters. I think they talk about some bloodletting in the pit. That happened When they were on stage and someone put razor blades between their fingers and slashed up other guys in the crowd really awful stuff but during this particular incident the guys are on stage and the guy in the crowd starts sieg. Heil ink on the ZIG. Highly what the hell is to Jewish and I think someone else from the band Might Have Been Hispanic might might be forgetting but definitely two of the two of the members billy grassy days Italian so Although the Italians and the Germans had little kinship some fascism going on not New York Modern Day Italian seen so Anyway the There with this guy and and after the show this guy comes back. He's like hey he wants to talk to you like if our can kidney this you know. This guys was Zeke. Highly during the stage wants to dark. Taussig Okay Cinema. And they're thinking that he's going to ask them to join the local Nazi party And he comes in and he goes. Hey guys man I I really like you. I just I really want you to know you know it's not it's not You guys have a problem with its Jews. And they're like well you know. Two guys in our bands are Jewish. She's like well you know. I had a really hard upbringing. My parents were anti Semitic in you know so. So that's where that comes from but it's really is really blacks. I have a problem with the blacks of the people. And it just Kinda got gigs themselves into a deeper and deeper hole and finally today Band members realized that they're just dealing with trump. They say you know you could think for you. Don't have to follow what other people push your way and and you could have your own belief system. It's not built on on a foundation of hatred. And if you like are banned you'll see that what we do is really a promote Self empowerment and positively and You know energy release Being able to purge those horrible experiences by Making music and just hate is not the way to go and the guy went on his merry way and and you know. Sheer disaster was averted. Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah So it it is it harder living a life in the underground barely able to survive or at the top of the game with all the pressure Because you know. The book is filled with both perspectives. And I think that's a good question to ask you now. That you you know have accumulated all of this knowledge. That is a good question but I think what it comes down to economics. If you're on the top of the food chain you're doing well. You've already made money. Theoretically you've put some of it in the bank and you don't have six divorces in alimony that you have to pay to everyone and you've lived wisely to a certain extent You could always back out if it's too much there's too much pressure. You can always say all right. That's you know I'm GonNa do something else. I'M GONNA go get a job at Fox News or sheriff. I've seen any metal. Maybe kid rock but come on. He's not really mad. You know I think there are options when you're when you're on top when you're rich and some guys push themselves too far. They take on movie deals and they take on book deals and they they do any number of things in an ends mazing that way. You know some of these people can can multitask like that. Certainly it's stressful. But some of these guys are so motivated that they pull it off and clearly there workaholics but To a certain extent some of them take their addictive tendencies and funnel them into the art of creation. So they're no longer taking drugs are having those compulsions If you're on the bottom of the food chain if you're a struggling metal band and you're really doing it for the love of what you do you probably have a part time job You know maybe you're having trouble paying your mortgage Maybe the Kid crashed the car. And now you can't afford to have it fixed. I mean there's all kinds of problems that come with the lack of finances and I think that makes you crazy or do you think that you know pushes you. Further to the brain can and trashing more hotels drinking more divy. Drug use I I don't know if I see much of a difference between aren't necessarily fewer options. You know yeah you can't you can't just check yourself into the Betty Ford Clinic At a moment's notice like The top tier bands would be able to. Yeah Very Grado. Maybe get help to to quit drinking or taking drugs if you're even doing that but you're going town to town Every night out of the love and sheer passion. For what you're doing you know it's it's It's a compulsion. It's it's like an addiction to to be in a in a band. Lotta guys have have told me and Like I said a lot of them have to go back home to part time jobs and And supporting the family as well. So if you don't have the money coming in I think You know the same Mo Money Mo problems but I think you ask those who don't have money and they wouldn't agree with you. Okay so you know. I had the pleasure of interviewing K K downing on his memoir a couple of months ago. He breaks down the band and of course his departure and all the animosity so two questions Which kind of falls a little bit on the question? I just asked which is i. Isn't it best to find a hobby while on the road like Glenn Tipton did with Golf? It's always it's always a good idea to find alternative to Indulgences and and and I think I mentioned Matt. Hey from Trivia earlier maybe maybe I know but okay well He. He was a fellow in his Othello. who's in a thrash band and they agreed. They developed a certain amount of success. They're still signed making records in in his early years. He Ki- As a teenager was was caught up in the craze of doing blow drinking too much and then he he just couldn't sing. Couldn't perform any realized. You know this is my career. This is what I love. I can't taff acid. I'm not going to go up there and and not be my best and if I want to be my best. I'm going to have to be so were and and clean. And and so he developed interest in other things and now he's a huge foodie so wherever he goes. He tries to find a restaurant. That's GONNA entice him or or You know tickle his taste buds and he doesn't go for conventional fair and he says it's best when he's overseas because he got to leading right. Yeah so he says he's had some some really great experiences with with different foods and then he doesn't much traveling as he can sightseeing while he's venue or in the city or is not a whole lot of time You know between soundcheck in the Gig you can either go back to the hotel and crash or you can hop on a subway or call newburgh. Whatever go visit the local tourist attraction. Yeah bonder one museum but yeah that's a that seems to me to be a great way to kill time in. Randy by from Lamma God reads voraciously any rights to and those are also both great things to do. Yeah Yeah now just because you know does filter through the book There d think there will ever let cake back into priest. I think there's a lot of love that's been lost between priests and K. K. I think they felt betrayed. And I think what he put in his book. Some of it was was unexpected and and Judas priest her collection of polite English. Gentlemen they even even casebook. Isn't really that scintillating comparing cards ashes book or you know so there's kind of an unspoken rule that you don't let the garbage out of the CAN and I think K. K. Did Lil little bit of that. I don't know they could never You know never mend fences because they were together for decades But I know Richie Faulkner their guitars to replace Glenn Tipton when glints sadly Became ill with Parkinson's They love they love richy riches a great guitarist. He injects new blood into the band. The fans like him and they're still doing great shows so and then Glenn comes in you. Know does the classics There'll be less of that 'cause I think going to retire completely Due to His Parkinson's. Yeah unfortunately I believe that to be the case. I don't even know how much longer that priests can go. Go and do. I know they're making one more record at least and they do have a fiftieth anniversary tour lined up Which you know is a pretty big thing and I could spell the end but maybe not. I mean bands. Don't break up anymore. They they say they do just replaced. They replaced members until It's just a tribute act and you didn't even know it kisser on their farewell tour ill. I think they announced it six years ago and Motley. Crue said we'll never right at. We'RE GONNA sign in blood. That were you did that contracts. And they're still back and now the dates are out who could imagine guns N. roses getting back together. Boom so you know I think There's an edge these people have to to recapture that That magic that they enjoyed their youth when these certain people with that certain chemistry were on stage as not to say. They can't be replaced. Because Richie Faulkner is a great guitarist and sounds Great Judas priest but for instance when you had A different singer singing when rob. Halford quit the band Although he was a great vocalist and could could capture ROB's range. It just wasn't the same. Yeah Fan in Vadodara. Yeah they didn't buy like With rob and You Know I. It's hard especially when you're an icon like Rob Hallford a is you know an inventor of the sound And it look in the look and yeah and you know it's and it's always hard to replace the singer in general although some have Successfully done that but He added that that was always a hard job for ripper to to ever Achieve and he did his best is anybody could From everything that I've read so And he's been very gracious about the fact that they even hired him to be in the band in a clearly. He was out the second rob said he would come back. I'm sure you know they didn't break well they I'm sure they broke it to him as as as softly as they could but there was no argument no option of any other way and he gratefully accepted it. Yeah you know yeah I totally get it. Rob was my favorite singer. It's going to suck not to be with you guys but yeah we'll moves on and Sabbath replaced their singers a couple of times. Interestingly yeah and boy very very well yeah I thought Ronnie James Dio was phenomenal. Frontmen for that band. Oh yeah yeah at least for especially that first album hell and the second album as well yup but but then there was fighting and he left and here at the problem he'd keep fighting with them and then rejoining and did humanizer which was another good album not as good as the others but Certainly better than anything he done. At least I think with with Glenn Hughes or Ian Gillan. Who are the other kind of regulus that yeah that that filled in for Ozzie? Ozzie came back good. Old Ozzy Goodall begins and ends. Yeah all right so Which artist and this is a two part question? What do you think it's the prize for just being the worst human being Evelyn? The live on the planet. Or if you had to pick one band to stay away from because you might actually get killed and eaten. Who would it be and why? That's pretty funny. You know you'd have to go with some of the Black Metal Satanists. Who having done what they've done even if they're not burning churches anymore e kind of have to have your guard up when you're around him. I guess I wouldn't wouldn't WanNa go drinking with them and and Exchanging political views. Let's put it that way. Well John What's next for you well right now. I'm Promoting this new book called Raising Hill. But I'm also in discussions with a couple of artists. I'd really like to do another another memoir. Authorized BIOGRAPHY THAT. I read with a musician. once I've done I've been proud of and have been received well It's just a matter of finding the right chemistry and the right combination people with similar schedules. And it's it's something is difficult to To navigate in and make happen but That's my goal right now. So so hopefully. Soon you'll be hearing about Another book I'm writing with a rock and roll luminary awesome awesome. Well John Wiediman. It's been great avenue on Deeper Dixon Rock with us today. Yeah thanks for You really digging. Deep in going into the comprehensive Facets of of metal by Dr Martha Dolla. Why Russian thankfully dot Com just great Time talking with John Wieder Horn. Please go out and get Raising hell backstage tales from the lives of metal legends. You won't be disappointed. You'll have a lot of fun Like I said it's one of those books you can just leave around and grab At a moment's notice to to get a chuckle or widen. The is open the mouth You know give the devil horns whatever. Whatever floats your boat Makes you feel good So you know. I think what I WANNA. Kinda just mentioned today is that you know mentors are just so such an obsessive sub-genre of rock and roll In in a long standing one you know I mean I think we can probably all agree that you know the the real genesis of Of Metal begins with Black Sabbath of first album which came out This month In nineteen seventy. So it's it's fifty years ago and You know those guys have just finished up their supposedly their final tour And then it just continues to morph and and split off in another road. It's it's like this giant growing thorn Bush that never stops a sprouting new New Branches and And leaves and flowers That you know continues and you know. I I think it's fair to say that You know to the metal players Are usually good players? You just have to be That good of a musician to keep up to it. There's obviously a a a a large bit of athleticism. That goes along with that and I think that's another thing to think about with with The metal music and that is you can only do it for so long before you know you. Just don't have the physicality to continue because it is like In many ways A bit more athletic than than many other forms of music that you know. I mean the rolling stones. Get up there and do it when they're eighties in that blues based music but You know for you know. Morbid Angel or slayer anthrax to continue to do this. When they're like in their seventies man I I don't think they can do that You know that's that's a big reason. Why Neil Parrott Gun. Rest is so You know decided to Hang it up because he just couldn't keep up with the The physicality that was needed out there but but on the positive side You know you you just. You can't get a more dedicated fan base Than than the metal heads out there Regardless of what sub-genre you may be into You know a black metal Swedish death metal or what have you And there's always something new coming around There is An industrial quality to to it in some respects. There's I guess grind core. There's they're scream. Oh there's all kinds of Of elements that Turn into What we now think of metal so anyway That's just my two cents. I love thinking about this stuff and I I enjoy a good metal show every now and then Get the angst out The the going and I've been My Fair share of Mosh pits And and do love Love seeing these guys. perform Every wants to wall so you know I like all kinds of music. All Forms of music and This is Just as fun as as any of the rest I don't know how serious you should take it Some take it more serious than other. I remember I was like shocked. When I found out that black Sabbath weren't really devil worshippers they really Moore More Hammer Film worshippers than devout worshippers of those of you know The the British Hammer studios will remember those Kind of kitschy horror movies but So anyway I Love I love it. I have fun with it and I hope you do too okay. That's it that's all for this week. Hey you know what to do. Keep up the Rockin Why US deeper digs in rock produced and hosted by Chris? Swain all sound design incidental music by busy signal studios find all of our shows notes social links at www dot pound film podcast dot com or wherever. You listen to great podcasts. All songs found for purchase on ITUNES spotify or Google. Play please purchase. You've great and important tracks find on facebook at the are. We are on instagram out. Our and our archaeology and archaeology.