6 Episode results for "Dan Glickman"
Changing The World According To A Teacher
"<music> <music> welcome to one energy. Everybody my name's jordan kroll and today on the show have an absolutely amazing mazing man that i am so excited for you to hear from his name is dan glickman and he's actually from the small town of raymond alberta. He grew grew up in less bridging calgary alberta however though and he is currently teaching seminary and institute fulltime for the church of jesus christ as latter day saints in raymond and he's been doing that for the last fifteen years he has a bachelor of commerce and finance and accounting from the university of burj and also has a masters of education from the university of calgary. He is absolutely phenomenal teacher. <hes> i know that the things he has to share today with you. We'll give you so many things to think about and will not leave you wanting he in his own words has coached uniquely successful raymond comic girls rugby would be program where they have won ten of the last eleven to your won provincial championships and he actually was the coach that helped start the program in two thousand six. He is an amazing man amazing teacher amazing coach to say that you know if you look at just that he's won the lights. It's ten of the eleven tier one provincial championships as a coach for the girls rugby. Program is an unbelievable. He has been married for the last sixteen years to regan and who actually works as a speech language pathologist and competes in quarterhorse reining competitions in his spare time he loves to work around the family ranch kaik bike play hockey and golf so before we get to the conversation too quick thoughts i for the first seven and a half minutes of our conversation. I apologize for the bad sound and we had a few technical difficulties in the beginning but we got them sorted out. I didn't want to get rid of any of dan's thoughts in the beginning because i thought what he was saying was incredibly valuable so so please please don't stop listening because of the faulty sound in the beginning. Just hold on for a little bit and i promise you won't be disappointed. Second the last few episodes have really been diving coming into the socially related issues of climate change and what we can do to make the energy and products we use cleaner and greener my conversation with dan is the cherry on top to this little mini series. I created on the social issues of climate change and i think there's a direct connection between who we are being humans and the impact we are having on the environment armant and i want you to really listen to it. Dan thinks we can do to improve ourselves in order to lessen our impact on the environment so without further delay. Let's get to the show going going great happy to be here. I i've been wanting to do this with you for a long time and i and i'm glad <hes> we ran into each other a little while back in then kinda set something up so you most of your career has been dedicated to working in with and supporting us what what made you become so passionate about that in quickly transition from sales into becoming a teacher i i can't i i saw at the opera. I'm thinking that actually gives for free. If money was taken out of my life equation i would still do when i'm doing for free whereas when i was selling house showing money right and not everybody has that not everybody gets to do a job they would do for free but opportunity also just make sense and you and you loved it ever since the i i. I absolutely love it. I still i jokingly. Tell people that i feel like i retired at twenty. Hi because i i just love the opportunity to encourage younger people as you get older and as you does an individual get older. You'll find that one of the most thrilling is find a young person light light whether desire to improve and and to point them in the right direction encourage them. Tell them they can do that. I there's a few things that will bring more status. Actions makes sense. I i know i've been influenced by you attendant. I know maize. Maize has a lot as well since you. You're you know you're teaching religion spirituality spirituality in sports that are involved. You know all all three of those umbrellas are kind of covering the deeper side of education shen of teaching kids morals and hard work and ethics. How have you seen these three things aid in the long term success of youth. I i think that especially in my experience sports sports is one of the few areas where young people get. You got an accountant. You don't get the ball game right. <hes> you're told where he sets on the depth chart hard work day off right and and i think those things are all transferred to very important life it's less than that create successful people <hes> because if you high legitimate consequence than accountability eventually life very difficult for you right and so if you know you're certain on plainfield surrounding all or more it's i i create a situation where like with the kids that i coach <hes> but it's obviously not life or death but it the moment creates an opportunity for them what they will do under pressure right and so that's really helpful. I admire you for being such a good teacher. You're one of the best teachers i've met and i think you know my podcasts are about about clean energy and climate change which will kind of tie in a little bit to our conversation but at least from my perspective i think one of the biggest problems with the fight against climate change is people. I don't think are educated enough about solutions that are out there or they're wrongly. Educated about solutions already exist in especially with nuclear people are just totally miseducated on on what it is and its potential but from your experience how how can we educate people better and also be better teachers ourselves so i i walk or not but but from what i what what i watched one uh-huh from balsa perspective and full aw honesty because they the problem that i listened to the green line line problem right but i don't know if the estrogen getting one hundred percent true and it would it would take me so along to actually pick the information apart yes to the truth and i think on both sides of the argument. There's people that motivated by need. They need to eat their into place. They want to walk money running right and and so the messaging needs to be right right so pure motives and honesty is what he said so pure motives as a teacher. How does that factor factor into the equation <hes> well. I think everything everything that i need to actually improve talk to relieve suffering to pass something onto the next generation. We're worried about climate change or global warming. You know how right now <hes>. I think the conversation yeah about what did we pass on to the next generation and order the sacrifices were making rushed now to keep these balances running <hes> benefit the next generation or harder right and it's not about money and power and influence right now but very true for the media for all business owners to right right. That makes sense so so would you. Would you say it's fair to say that at the end of the day the real focus should be on striving to be the best that we possibly can be because then then when we do that we are passing on teachings and a life that that will set up the future generation for success is that was fair or no yeah one hundred percent because of the generation that we get the full on i i to that's really didn't champion to them. You know it's one thing to say wow we made a bunch gotcha and this is causing a lot of stop me i the next generation chef but if they find out well classing causing a lot of and we actually are about this happy then that's right right so once we're aware paul. We need to own an religiously changes. Jump prove it right for those listening one. Dan and i share you kinda. This love for a guy named jordan peterson. That's actually in toronto and something thing one thing that i wanted to talk about that. We've kind of tie in to our conversation. Already is a in the book jordan. Peterson gives a quote where he says perhaps our environmental. The problems are not best construed technically. Maybe they're best considered psychologically. The more people that sort themselves out more responsibility they will take for the world around around them in the more problems they will solve. It is better proverbially to rule your own spirit than to rule a city. It's easier to subdue enemy without than one within. Maybe the environmental problem is ultimately spiritual if we put ourselves in order. Perhaps we'll do the same for the world so tying into this conversation of okay. We need to be our best possible. Selves you know for the for the normal individuals is the everyday individual dan where where should we start. Where should we start in regards to sorting out our lives to be better. People people jordan peterson starts with the idea that fix yourself. I write a consistent theme in in all leadership. Principles leadership courses is the first type of leadership is self leadership and and that's the easiest way to make the world a better place. There's a very small small percentage of people in the world that can have the type of influence that can make a sweeping change in a short amount of time but if everyone tries their best to live up to what they think they should be living up to to a standard they set for themselves and everybody has that anybody who quiets their mind can can quickly identify a few things they can do more than a few things they should do less of <hes>. Maybe a few relationships they need to take better care of <hes> maybe in areas their life they need to tidy up in in their work and that has an an unbelievable amount of momentum as everybody tries to do that. I've been privileged to work with a number of groups classes teams business organizations where everybody was just trying to do their best and when everyone tries to do their best everything gets better ed or an old book seven habits by steven covey he talked about an idea of synergy that when each individual does their best then all of certain just it it amplifies the productive good that everybody's involved in so i think that's the easiest the most achievable way to to make the world a better place to just start with yourself. Make sense what <hes> you said you've been involved in a lot of teams and organizations what what role does as other people play. I know that in the book jordan peterson talks about that. We need to surround ourselves with people that want the best for us. How have you seen and the people that surround us affect our ability to wanna be our best or i mean my experience comes from working with us but i've seen knitted every season and someone's life if you have if you have a toxic person in your life and you don't know how to handle that person your your life will become toxic. If you have wonderful encouraging positive hardworking people in your life. You'll become the same thing <hes> there's that old saying that says you become the average of the five people you spend the most time what the end and and i you know in the time that jordan peterson his become quite famous. I've watched a handful of individuals in my life. Who are you know friends or family who had <hes> toxic or abusive if people in their life and if we're not in a position to keep negative influence and negative relationships at an arm's length or even totally eliminate them then there's no way we can achieve our potential because sadly not everyone wants to do their best right the why why why do some people want to be their best than some don't where where does that apathy all of the sudden sneak in. I wish wish i knew the answer to that question. I can tell you some of my observations but i've thought about law one of the things like our our culture. I think really makes is it hard for you to want to be your best because we're so numbed by entertainment and <hes> you know like our grant grandparents the parents your great grandparents had just recovered from the second world war and while they were grateful that they had a house a car food food and and they could have a nice saturday right and nobody was going to shoot them right now. You know we have problems in north american throughout worlds but generally there's more security now than there's ever been right and when their security <hes> then there's apathy and you can in cut corners that we couldn't sixty seventy years ago and so i think you really have to work to motivate yourself to want to be better to be to be deliberate in in attacking difficult challenges in life. <hes> makes sense obviously that that process takes a lot of honesty what i know in jordan peterson's book one of my favorite sections he talks talks about is that is to basically tell the truth or don't lie does does stubborn honesty aid in this process of wanting to be a better person a hundred percent i. I don't think there's anything that you could choose to be that would be more important than meaningful into choosing losing to be honest because if you're honest your relationships will be what they need to be. Your relationship with yourself will be what it needs to be. <hes> and there there will be momentum that comes from integrity and then opportunities will open up and if you make a mistake or your headed down a a road you don't wanna go down. If you're honest you'll stop. If if you're dishonest you'll hide you'll lie. You'll see you'll steal and you can end up in some really bad places. Just starting <hes> dishonesty. One of my favorite favorite ideas on honesty is that honesty is and everything but everything is nothing without honesty wow that that's profound found quote and i just i've found that to be true. I i mean i have to really work to have kind feelings and patients with people that lie <hes> in in my experience they waste your time and they're very disenchanting to work with right right it just because you can't you don't use your on authentic. They're not trying to be their best selves. Nothing's real right right yeah. Totally <hes> back to oh your point dillard <unk> remind reminded me of a question is what <hes> what role could does putting yourself in situations that are you're unpredictable or new aid into shaking up that apathy you know putting you into a place that is foreign or unknown owned. Does this stuff like that force people. I don't know if the word forces wayward but motivate people to change absolutely because as as has comfortable as it is apathetic and lazy and to shoot low. It's unbelievably satisfying to do something really difficult difficult and once you catch the vision of trying to be your so then you start to seek opportunities that offer you some some resistance some stretching some challenge. You need to seek things that make you fail sometimes and <hes> then it's. It's the same as you know investing. There's a there's a risk return like more difficult challenge. You take on more thrilling it is when you conquer that challenge right and and so i think that that one of the opportunities that i i really see in my life is to really encourage young people to take econ difficult challenges and to shoot really high because if they develop that pattern or lives there. I really believe they'll find happiness. In every season turnover life a happy people work hard. Even the wealthiest people in the world seem to still be engaged in something difficult some some kind of challenge and i just think it's part of the art of good living so. Would you say with you inspiring us to do things that are hard to shoot high. Would that be another reason from your observation of why youth progress so quickly is because they are so oh actively involved in things that are either hard or unknown and then you get up to you know thirty forty year in a job for twenty years and you kind of dizzy gonna get into this his routine and you're not really doing anything different. Yeah i agree with that a hundred percent <hes> when you're young. You're you know everything's near you. You have no point of reference on any right. You're always out of your comfort. Zone junior high that's out of your comfort zone. That's out of everybody's right right right and and so i- uncomfortable is comfortable to anybody under the age of twenty five for the most part right and and so they're more willing to try new things things they they often take on challenges that they have no concept of how difficult it's going to be but they do it and then they look back and say wow that was actually really hard. <hes> as as you get older you know. Maybe you get more established. You're you're wise in certain ways. You're you know what to avoid and for better or worse i think and if if you're not careful in your thirties forties and fifties you can get stagnant right to your comment on that people striving you the youth that when they do hard things you see them. Just you know finding happiness enjoy in progressing. I think when i think a quote is from tony robbins <unk> he says progresses happiness but jordan peterson goes into this idea of that it is our moral responsibility to to do things that are meaningful versus that are expedient or just make us happy. Would you agree with that and if you do why i i agree with it for sure <hes> and i agree with it for a number of reasons number one. I think the last thing you wanna say on your death bed is i pursued. It's the things that were expedient right. I don't think anybody wants that written on their tombstone. Yeah i don't versus. I worked just hard as i could to make the world a better place right you know because we we all have a unique set of opportunities talents gifts interests and and if he can channel those things into something that makes someone else's life better makes the world a little bit better the there's it's like i mentioned before. I don't think there's anything that's more satisfying than than knowing that you help someone in your life. Find something they were looking for feeling encouraged when they were discouraged right and and you know in a in a bigger picture you know if you if you invent something or if you research something that changed the world for the better i i was in a really discouraging conversation. It was discouraging to me. I wanna hike with a guy who's just brilliant. He's an e._r. Doctors of fantastic tastic person and he talks about how he really wanted to just pursue playing in the mountains more than doing his job and i thought well i get it like who doesn't wanna hike around kayak around. I mean th that strikes a good balance right but i also thought you know what a shame. This guy is a brilliant person who's good at his job and doesn't obviously from the conversation i was hearing doesn't feel enough for that sense of meaning in in actually saving lives relieving suffering helping people through some of the most difficult times of their lives and and and i think our culture does too much to sell <hes> a life of comfort and ease that all we should eat pursuing pursuing is is trying to live like a trust fund kit for lack of a better term right right no job just like focusing on ray instagram feed and i'm keeping my ten in order and i'm getting a new hairdo once a week and i'm cutting edge fashion and look at me but for some reason that recipe not that i just put out doesn't seem to produce happy. There's a reason bill gates still works right because he's trying to do something meaningful and he's not doing the same things he was doing fifteen twenty years ago but he's still doing something <hes> and that just tells you like that when when you find what kind of your what you were meant to did you hear for your life i think you need to do it with with passion and with enthusiasm with consistency and gratitude gratitude that you found it or you think warren buffett still needs to invest probably not and teach people about investing. He's not doing it for the money right but he likes to work in likes to help other. People meet their financial goals. You think tony robbins needs to travel around and kill people to live better lives for the money. I don't thinks oh right so how do you. How do we go about finding that that why then you know even for someone like your friend who is clearly in an industry where it would be easy to find a why to what you're doing a meaning leaning but obviously you kind of meant it was missing that where do we start in finding things that are meaningful to us will couple couple things. I think that fifteen to twenty five or fifteen to thirty age group should try to learn as much as they can about themselves of the life of the world around them get as much education as as they can and not just form education through travel through orienteering true the pursuit of of skills whatever is so you need to learn as much as you can about yourself and then i think you're in a better position to figure out your y and and as a religious educator obviously i'm gonna tell you fate right. If you have a basic say that that this whole experience were involved in isn't just some random accident accident or some random happening that that were here experiencing and no faith that it goes on after <hes> i think it's harder to find meaning but if you have the general idea that your deeply important and that everyone you see is deeply important divine in nature. I think you're gonna see meaning and just about everything you do. Write things work better when we he won another as sacred in nature right. Would you say that faith and spirituality a <music> a help you find meaning and your morals versus those that maybe don't have faith or meaning or does it just speed up the process well. I think it speeds up the process for sure because you if you have faith you usually inherit religion that it comes from a long line wise meters right and and there's certain on negotiable if you have faith whereas if you don't have faith i think all people are good but if you don't have just a basic face and maybe connect yourself to a religion you've gotta have so many complicated conversations rick yourselves and others that it just takes longer that makes sense and i don't know you know we we live in <hes> a secular alert culture now and for some reason people really want to split hairs about certain basic ideas that made north america <hes> end the west a wonderful place to exist right splitting hairs meaning what do you what do you mean by that. <hes> god or no god right you know should we trust religious leaders. <hes> let's break down the patriarchy they they did some things wrong here. Okay sure they did some things aren't here but in nineteen percent of what they did is actually putting you in a position to have free speech economic and educational opportunity and religious freedom so let's cut these guys some slack right totally and let's not throw this whole thing out right <hes> you know because any any historical study of re whether it's an independent religion or <hes> any government that has produced a good country there still flaws and i think our job going forward is saying okay. This looks pretty good. How can we make it better. Instead of that is a problem this small brick in this wall. We're gonna care the whole thing down right yeah yeah. That's a really cool observation thought about like that the you know as we continue on trying to find find meaning and become the best we can be. I'm drawn to the idea that jordan peterson talks about that. Compare yourself to who you were yesterday not to someone else who is today. What would advisor tools would you recommend in helping people not compare themselves to others and rather focus on comparing ourselves so we were yesterday where i would start for anybody who's involved in social media managed that i personally don't i miss the social social media bolton. It doesn't <hes> you know i. It's not in line with anything i need to do for my professions. I'm not involved in it but what i do notice is is there's a culture comparison and social media is that is <hes> debilitating because you can't help but look sideways if you're in social from you can't help but wonder if you really got the game mastered ralph waldo emerson said that imitation is suicide uh-huh and envy is ignorance and and so i think we need to be really careful to not worry about what other people are doing and comparing ourselves because everybody has their own journey to walk in and it's absolutely impossible to compare yourself because it's absolutely impossible to many identical cooper -tunities that others have the identical experiences and perspectives that others out because your personality in a certain environment virement. We'll do something different than what my personality during the same environment <hes> and so to compare is is frankly. It's just a waste of time. You might feel feel inspired but in feeling inspired is different than comparing. Tell me more about that. What do you mean well. You know you've praised me a lot here. <hes> in i appreciate we ship out it's flattering. <hes> and i hope that anything that you see. That's good in me. <hes> you're not comparing yourself. You're saying hey like. I kind of like his approach to that. You yeah i can do that or i would like to do that and maybe feel inspired. Be your best self instead of i. If you look at someone say one of your you're in university right now so many class who has a unique capacity you could say wow natural talent hard worker. That's amazing. I wanna do that better. Versus versus comparing yourself is saying i'm either better or worse than that person right and it and it it puts you it at odds with them. Instead of seeing just kind of a general unity with anyone you're working with comp- comparison is competitive and competition is good and it's positive but when it comes to personal development i don't think you need to do that is there. Is there a role that it getting to know yourself plays in that process because i think that takes a lot of emotional intelligence to have that level of insight and i think i think that comes from working hard taking on challenging your life. You'll find that you rub shoulders with great people and you'll find the great people have have strengths and weaknesses just like you to austin when we when we compare ourselves we compare someone else's strength through our personal weakness or deficiency and and that is where it becomes something that's don't you grow bright so is there. There's there's obviously a healthy balance of of role models in our life and so what role should we be focusing on having role models meaning. What should we look for in role models yeah well i know when i was younger in my twenties i looked for people who were doing things things that i wanted to be doing ten fifteen twenty years down the road and i would ask them questions. I would take time to you. Ask them about finance about marriage about career about managing sir now aspects of of time and lifestyle aw and and i think so you need to understand yourself to see who you might want to be in ten fifteen twenty years to penn project that idea uh-huh and then you need to be humble enough to to find these people and ask them these questions and then act on there's certain people that are have a ton of respect for but their approach to life isn't exactly how i want to approach life so i wouldn't go to them looking looking looking at them as a mentor. I'm not saying you can't learn from them but but in your twenties <hes> look for mentors that you naturally connect with based on some come interests and talents and capacities that you have to kind of come back to the idea that you were talking about with when we don't lie why are people that do lie the i should. I should back up the two thoughts that you shared earlier. Were people that lie or you know. Don't don't tell the whole truth there being authentic and then also people that either are apathetic or shoot low in a lot of ways they kind of hide to the a large responsibilities life kind of poses in front of them. What role have you seen in people speaking up in speaking in their truth. I guess you could say or just being bold in the face of challenge and sharing what needs to be shared sharing what they believe in. How have you seen that not only influence that individual and becoming a better person but also inspire others to do the same will. There's no doubt telling the truth makes stronger because when you tell the truth you engage in a situation where you'll often faceoff talk and in facing opposition facing disagreement facing hostility tests your guts as an individual ritual but when you tell the truth in whatever circumstance you're in you definitely give strength to others to do the same right and you definitely increase the amount of respect that you have for yourself and those who are also honest have for you as an individual uh. It's very refining activity to engaging in honest conversations. I'm glad you brought up conversations. So how how can we create you know. How can we create a better atmosphere to have these genuine honest conversations. Maybe with ourselves or with others well. I think you know if you're having conversations where there's disagreements and you want to say the truth. I think you have to be really careful to be respectful right. You know the old saying you yes to disagree without being disagreeable and and but it's important to disagree. It's important to see what what you really feel but if you can keep those those more negative talks a commotion out of the conversation. I think it's productive <hes> and not comes back to this comparison idea if it's iverson's as you if there's no way that if you're right then if you're right i'm one hundred percent wrong that that that has to get out of our minds we have to have a culture where we respect each other and nothing believe we can learn from one another and as we share the truth that we feel we can find some productive middle ground right if it's too contentious in nature which you see a lot in the media because it's more entertaining and the media needs to entertain fourteen but often when you see political discussions or any type of discussion in the media. It's it's so hostile that there's no way it can be productive <hes> um and so you have to be confident in her and respectful enough and even tempered enough to to have those types. It's a conversations in in the old book as a men's thinking by james. Our one of the last lines in calmness is power. If you watch jordan peterson under fire he stays called right. Yeah that's right. He's not a pushover but he's called. He doesn't start talking any faster. He doesn't cut anybody off. He just waits to say his peace and he says it with precision and humility right and <hes> and he he still retains this respect for anybody. He's talking to never breeze venomous or negative emotions right. How do we develop this courage to be good listeners then because i think it is a skill that needs is to be practiced and learned. I know i am into newly trying to better listener. But what would you say in how we can be better. This nurse actually listen the which which means what how how would you go to austin when we're in a conversation. We're we're. We're trying to come up with our next talking point right. You can tell a person's listening if there's a small pause in between the comments if if if if you almost cut someone off you're probably just formulating your own ideas very few people know how to list and and and so i i think the more we listen <hes> especially. If you're you're discussing you know sensitive or heated topics. I think the better you get at listening and really showing that type of focus. I think that really clears the air to to someone on the other side of the table. That's no that no hey i. I want to hear you out. I think you have good things to say. I'm going to listen. I'm going to express and understand what you're saying and then that makes it far more likely they will hear you out but yesterday call your mind to do it. You really have to <hes> get to a place of sincerity insperity in order to be a good listener. I would say year one of the best listeners. I know what what things do you do. Do you do do you. Do you say that i should so my thoughts down. Do you actively do things to calm your mind before you get into a conversation or when you get into a conversation. Are you actively thinking like i need to calm my mind down and listen or both. The role that i play as a teacher is only effective. If i listen to what my students are seeing so i just i think my fifteen years teaching has has taught me that there's there's no way to connect with human beings unless they know you care enough to listen right so i just think i've developed a pattern where i really try to hear sure what people are saying instead of waiting for my next opportunity to see some idea that i have right and then i find that that provides for more regional thinking because you trust the moment to express your thoughts and ideas or responses to what other people say instead of walking into a room with a set agenda on what you want to get off. I think that that there's a there's a natural connection that happens with human beings that really try to open up and listen in here one another right and and that's one of the thrills of what what i do being a teacher if if you really enjoy it and really get a knack for doing it. It's it's the connection with other humans where they really. I know you care so so. I think i just that that's hard of my daily life to to really try to listen to people how do you how do aline into that. Moment that moment where you are in january trying to listen the does that that takes a lot of trusts right yeah yeah and i trust that it's going to go right trust that they're going to share yeah. It is trust. It's a little bit risky and and it's kind of fun actually a little bit of adrenaline rush it because it keeps you on your toes right <hes> to austin <hes> ah the conversations we have our two people saying something they've already heard something. They've already said <hes> they're they're parroting. Something heard on the news. They're just waiting for the next opportunity to pair some idea that they they like and feel that it makes them sound intelligence. <hes> the thrill of trying to clear your mind is you're actually blown away by the original aw come to you. That's the rush of honest conversation. That's the russ of sincere communication is is i. I know that i'm i'm having a sincere conversation. I wouldn't say i'm learning as i go but i am hearing myself safe things. I never thought i i'm having having a great experience right now for example right you're asking me questions and i'm just i'm using my outside voice to answer those questions and you know. I don't know what you're going to do with this information but i'm having a great conversation with thrilling to me. It's funny. It's funny you say that because i look at this moment right now and it's you know at the beginning of the conversation had this whole list of questions i wanted asking as we continue talking about you know. I need to be present present and just ask what i feel. I want to ask and based on what you're saying and yeah. It's amazing how the conversation just shifts you know. When can you trust in in listening in really engaging in with the other person is saying so yeah. It's really cool point that you're saying yeah and you're doing it. You're enjoying through that right right now. Yeah yeah absolutely yeah yeah. It's it's an it's inspiring and yeah and i really think i really think how that <hes> that in in any category of life. That's how things really improve. <hes> is listening listening <hes> believing that it's gonna work <hes> trusting your own capacity trusting the capacity of others and then just kind of taking one step separate time forward like it happens in conversation happened in your organization happens in families and communities <hes> if things are too scripted and there's no opportunity or openness to change and improvement and flexibility then then you're in trouble on a number of levels right there is there is a balance though is they're not of embracing this side of chaos you know as it were as well as order order you know is there. There's a fine balance. I'm sure you prepare for lessons. I don't think you go into a lesson completely blind or maybe going completely. We trust what comes to you but do you deserve a balance between order and chaos absolutely i mean my the lessons teacher eighty minutes law and there with young people between the age of fourteen and eighteen or eighteen thirty <hes> and temptation that some might have is has to have a twenty point form scripted experience on a piece of paper and to just follow that because it keeps things organized but that that takes away that sincere communication can talking about so is there structure needed absolutely in eighty minute session. I have probably five bullet points. I'm gonna ask this question. We're gonna this conversation. They're going to study this. They're going to write that what they're going to share this with their neighbor. We're going to watch this video and that's the skeleton for eighty minutes and the really cool the cool thing about what i do is is all teach the same experience five to ten times over and if you offer that that balance of structure sure with flexibility actually have a new experience every time within that structure because you're so focused on what is coming into the table with this group right now yeah yeah so some sometimes i'll get through my five blinking. Sometimes i'll get through to and we'll take a detour or a a right handed turn and and we'll end up somewhere else but it was meaningful in that moment right because communication and leadership. I personally find it more effective. If you focus on a few individuals that are uniquely passionate <hes> because the other individuals i find that you care about an individual and they're more likely to give an honest effort. If you're just about yourself and pushing your own agenda your own message you own ninety s <hes> you'll lose your followers in whatever category whether it's a family organization athletic team whatever it is right <hes> couple couple quick questions in closing <hes> i have written down you know maybe ten fifteen points of things that you've shared that i definitely need to work on and when it comes to this process of sorting through our life like jordan peterson talks about how do we not get overwhelmed by everything anything that either we need to do or work on well that goes back to this idea of chaos and order. You can get into to a chaotic state. If you start thinking about all the things that you could or should do better right but you need to choose to be humble about who you are what you are and what you can actually do and i also think you need to choose in the old book <hes> the good to great. It was an old business book. Probably twenty years old now talked about the animal the hedgehog hedgehog the does like two or three things really well and i think as individuals and need to be careful all to not try to ten things in a mediocre way instead flipping around and try to four five things really well right and and then at another season of your life maybe switch but don't try to take on the whole thing right now right so so so understand your own own priorities what you really value and then establish what you want to improve on based on your priorities. You have to know your priorities. These are don't let the world or anybody else tell you what's most meaningful to you and what you really want. You need to sort that out and then i think your pursuit as an individual will <unk> quickly clarify right with with all of the knowledge you have now if you you were to go back to being a teenager. What do you wish you had known with with what you know. Now i can be a teenager. Can i would <noise> as i said our radio commit to honesty. I would work as hard as i could at anything that was in front of me. Oh take no opportunity it lightly because the opportunities we were young and throat or whole as they come and they go and the people that are in our lives when we're teenagers. There's one where young adults many of them come and go into cherish the opportunities the relationships to work and to learn at such a rich time in your life it it pains me when i see people wasting their useful and exciting opportunities so i've committed to honesty too hard work and cherishing the adventure that is life when you're fifteen to thirty right and and so so maybe i look back and i think well. Maybe i cut a corner there. Maybe i took that lightly. I'm thinking of sporting experience that i waste. I remember that i didn't quite saver my last high school. Football game quite enough and i didn't realize that was going to be my last football game ever and i look back doc now and i think i did it. I done right but i didn't cherish that in the way that i should have and i and so even to this day i try to cherish the moments and the opportunities that are right in front of me because things can change so fast right and and so life is really exciting if you see it. That way is like this is. This is a unique opportunity right in front of me. I'm working with these people in this place right now. This will never happen again so i'm gonna be dead honest and hard working in my approach to this and really good things happen when you do that man as always dan. I don't want to hold you up anymore but honestly thank you so much. Get doctor you browse which i did it a little pocket and my pocket i could just press a button and have you give me like the magic eight ball answer any situation. Maybe that can be my retirement government job. There you go so it's all your students. It truly love thanks again. I really appreciate you dan. Hey i appreciate it. Thanks for having me on his pleasure to be with you. Take care bye now yeah.
Chechu Urtiaga y Javi Ban Viajando Despacio 150
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How COVID-19 Shines A Light On Our Broken Food System with Dr. Dariush Mozaffarian
"Coming up on this episode of the Doctors Pharmacy. Our policies are not in line help or support people to eat healthy food. We have almost three and four. American adults are overweight or obese and about half of American adults have diabetes or prediabetes. Welcome to the Doctors Pharmacy. I'm Dr Mark Hyman and this is special episode focused on cove in nineteen. And I'm so lucky to have my friend and colleague Dr Dash Safari known as as friends to as Dari. Who's an extraordinary doctor? He's one of the few guys out there in academic medicine who really understands. That food is medicine and talks about it nonstop other than me. Which is pretty awesome. And he's a cardiologist. He's the Dean and John Mayer professor of at the tops. Friedman School of Nutrition Science and policy. He's professor of medicine at Tufts Medical School. He's one of the top nutrition researchers in the world and their goal at Tufts Freeman school is to produce trust the science future leaders and real world. Impact is not just an academic center. It's about focusing on policy and change in the world and there is no in medicine and academia. I know who's on more it to advance nutrition in policy frontier to speak out about the things that matter than than Dari and he has authored more than four hundred scientific publications which is unbelievable. I'd read most of them. I've quoted most of them. Well not really probably most but I read a lot of them. Have you read my bug? He's like a key feature in the book. There on how we focus on issues of obesity diabetes heart disease and evidence based policy approaches to really reduce this burden of chronic disease in the United States and globally. He's all over the place he's on visory grows in the US and caning governments the American Heart Association. The World Health Organization the United Nations and he's been featured in New York Times Wall Street Journal. Npr Time magazine and he was named as one of the world's most influential scientific minds. And I think of all the people out there talking about food and health and chronic disease food Pasi changes. There's no with more depth with more humidity and more brilliant addressing this than Dr Modifying so welcome to the Doctors Pharmacy. Wow Mark thank you so much and with that interaction we've set up the listeners for disappointment You're my hero. You're my hero. Your intellectual and hero and I learned so much from you and we want to talk today about what seems to be unrelated to Cova Nineteen which is an infectious disease but it's diet and chronic disease and you wrote an article with the former secretary of agriculture. Dan Glickman that was posted on. Cnn entitled Can Diet Flatten the curve for covert nineteen and it's sort of like How does that even make sense? So we've heard all about these ideas of fighting. The curb was social dissing handwashing washing and contact tracing an isolation testing but your article presented a very different view about how we can use food and nutrition and specific nutrients to actually help us address. This pandemic so. Can you tell us why you wrote this article and why this is more important than ever to address these issues? Yeah I think markets really clear that that to those of US following this crisis that cove nineteen has really laid bare these incredible challenges. These incredible disparities is incredible unreasonable aspects of our food system. Are there so many ways that that covered nineteen influenced student? Nutrition and nutrition Kobe. Nineteen back up at at all. Just go through quickly and we can go about each of them so you know. One is immunity the actual immune response to Cova and then you actually the blunting of the excessive inflammatory response to cove. We can talk about nutrition and actually the immune response to is is hunger and food insecurity which of course 'cause incredible human suffering with this economic shutdown lost wages at schools being closed but also we know from long clinical experience malnourishment further predispose people to infection. So that's the site and that doesn't mean and that doesn't mean skinny and wasted away could be that your nutrient deficient which is really common in America. Absolutely absolutely. There's one call hidden hunger. People look like they're getting food but there's hidden hunger because they're not getting the right the right nutrients and what's paradoxical is the most obese are often the most nutrient deficient when you look at their numbers. Right it's kind of interesting. Yeah and then. These other aspects of Kobe crucial to to you know of just quickly mention our third. The incredible intersections supply chains and food. Waste and getting food to people we. We don't really have a national food system even global food system. We have this fractured supply chain. That's now becomes you know very very dire And then I think one of the one of the most important things for really thinking about covert long term. Because this is going to be with us for for some time. Many ears is the incredible relationship between for Metabolic Health Diabetes Hypertension Heart Disease Obesity and poor outcomes with Cova. The the latest analysis from New York which has had the most cases in in the United States showed that with each of those conditions diabetes hypertension of city. There is about two or three full higher risk two to three times higher risk of hospitals. And if you put those three things together lots of people have diabetes hypertension and obesity. There be sixteen fold higher risk of hospitalization. And so it's very it's very plausible. And we're modeling this now. It's very plausible. That you know. If we had a metabolic healthy population job it would be much much less severe. And so you know thinking about nutrition and immune response malnourishment and hunger and food insecurity disparities very high rates and african-americans very likely related to nutrition in a major way the challenges to food systems and supply chains food waste and then metabolic health. You know these are all things that that you and I and others who study food at about that that food nutrition or a dire challenge and an incredible opportunity to improve the health of the population but Kobe. Nineteenth really liked taking a you know a knife and slice down dessert that was hiding immediate objects and so you know if five years from now we're back to where we were a couple years ago and there's no improvement in our food system quality of the food the way we get it to people in science that we have to address questions. I would be just devastated. I would be so disappointed that we haven't realized the opportunity here to fix the food system. So filming in the straight. What you're saying is that if you have chronic diseases and multiple chronic diseases that your risk of being hospitalized sixteen times higher that if you're metabolical unhealthy more likely to get sick because your immune system isn't working and then only twelve percent of us are actually healthy so that means if we actually had a healthy population that was eating a diet that created metabolic health instead of the opposite. Which we're doing now that this may just be a bad flu and we wouldn't have full hospitals in a society that shutdown and trillions of dollars in economic losses. All the evidence supports that you know. Of course we can't do a randomized trial and wave a wand and make everybody know about healthy to test that but all the evidence suggests that you know as you said. I'm based on national data. Only twelve percent of adults in this country are metabolic Healthy that's just taking things like waste. Your Conference Blood Glucose blood pressure cholesterol. It just measure those things. Only twelve percent of adults or metabolic be healthy and most of those people in their twenties right. You haven't yet really had a lifetime of for die in for lifestyle. And so the vast vast majority of American adults over forty are metabolic late unhealthy and given these associations you know as I mentioned even just one of these risk factors. You're doubling or tripling the risk of hospitals ation and you start piling up together In terms of risk of death is in so few debts especially under age. Seventy unless there's at least one of these other conditions. Yeah and so. It's very plausible. That if we had a very healthy population you know. Instead of a twelve percent medically healthy. We had twelve percent metabolic the unhealthy. What if nine of were metaphor healthy then in nineteen would be a far far less severe disease? Many many fewer hospitalizations fewer deaths. We wouldn't be shutting down the economy we wouldn't have. These hospitals overloaded our healthcare providers but insulted dangerous petit and working chefs on an and. What's really important here is that we can actually fix this now in real time. And so you know. It doesn't take years and years and years to reverse diabetes or to reverse hypertension or Reverse for metabolic health. Yeah does take years and years to change. Wait for many people but metabolic health. Whatever your weight. We can pretty rapidly improving. Edibala cal over months sometimes even shorter. But so yeah so the country. In addition to the things that we're doing social distancing and testing we should be launching a national campaign to improve the way we move and eat to improve our metabolic health to both protect ourselves and to protect our nation and globally to protect ourselves. This is this is what you're saying is pretty radical is that is it yes. We may take a long time to lose all the weight. We need to lose. But they're very short order. We by changing the food. That goes in putting in good stuff and bad stuff which you've written about and you know thous- particles that we could quickly revert to a more normal metabolic health reduce inflammation improve our immunity. And we see this. I seen this great example for people to understand is when someone who's very very overweight gastric bypass within weeks. Their diabetes goes away. There's still very overweight. But their metabolic health changes because they're eating a very different diet and that that's the key to remember that your metabolic health really quickly reverted so on a macro level. We sort of painted a picture of the poor quality diet we have leading to obesity and metabolic health. Which would make a massive difference if we changed. But you also were talking about what happens on the micro level on the micronutrient level. And that's really fascinating to me and I just shared the Arctic with you. I read this morning. That was done in China. Where in China has some of the most wide disparities selenium levels in the soil so in some provinces almost no selenium and other provinces there's abundance selenium in the soil and so the populations some are very efficient and some somewhere adequately nursery selenium and in this one study this one micronutrient right in the populations that had the highest levels. They had three times better curates for Kobe. Nineteen then the lowest levels in the population of the lowest level is selenium died five times as much as the ones with the highest levels. And that's just one nutrient so you were talking today about what you're trying to develop a study to look at a collection of nutrients that together could bolster the immunity of our population. And you're trying to get this study going so tell us about what is nutrients. How does it work? And what are you trying to find out through looking at the study? All great questions first and foremost ocean right. I think I am foremost. I've always been a guy who believes in foods food diet patterns from all the cardiovascular literature there's been a failed nutrient supplement after failed nutrient supplement. A single supplement. Doesn't really make a big difference. It's really about your overall food. And there are some exceptions. I think a mega threes Mega three fatty acids particular. There's after we did only some studies you know for for benefits mixed mixed findings. But on average for complex chronic diseases like cardiovascular disease and You know cancers and other conditions supplements don't seem to replace foods and so so i. I raise that because I come at this. As a skeptic I come at this as an automatic skeptic that individual nutrients could make a difference You know yet. As soon as Cobain head I started reading and consulted with colleagues experts in nutrition immunology nutrition infectious diseases. We have some of the world's way bang nutritional immunology. That's a wrestler. Yeah we we have. We have a incredible expert. Doctors Sabine at absues. Former president of the American Society for attrition the former head of research at tops Very very Much had a career study tricia technology and so together and recruiting other experts. We started looking at the evidence. And there's actually very compelling evidence from cell models animal experiments and even human studies about single nutrient supplements and infections on and specifically recovered. There's lots of research that suggested that some of the very same proteins that the Cobra virus uses for its own entry and replication. That have been another viruses. Like SARS is nutrients have specific benefit for for activity against those proteins. And so now I think there's maybe eight or ten nutrients that are potentially promising that could have an effect and I would put those accidents or three camps One camp is direct potential effects against Kobe protein. So those proteins that are needed for the virus to enter the cell and there's proteins replication and reproduction exotic For example Zinc has it inhibits. I'm looking at my notes here. To get the terminology exactly crack inhibits the army dependent Arman race. Which is needed for bio replication dancing with SARS? The SARS are a race and that's our home race to cope in nineteen and and now that means that the virus basically hijacked your genetic material and uses that little assembly line produce replicate itself and that interrupts that assembly line production is what you're saying exactly and another nutrient is a Christian person a and all fines to the ace two receptor of SARS which which with sorry advisor the receptor which SARS uses to get into into the cell and so and high level computer modeling as just recently identified. I attend as one of the top candidates were blocking Hobart entry into the south so it was a one camp and all I can go through those insurance. One camp is actually direct effects against specific effects against Cohen. A second camp is just generally improving pathogen killing and so we know again from animal experiments in humans. If you're deficient in these nutrients actually clinically deficient in these nutrients zinc selenium You know some of the b-vitamins some other vitamins. The immune system doesn't function as well and in animal experiments. And even some human trials if you give these vitamins you improve. T. Cell Function T. cells are are crucial fighting viruses. You improve saw option. And you get you boost. Immune responses general immune-boosting response and then the third category of these about eight or ten nutrients which to me. I think is actually the most interesting. Cogan is some of these nutrients help fight pathogens that are invading the lungs but also importantly dramatically ramp down prevent soften the excessive inflammatory response that the death with code because kills us because not because the virus itself. But because there's this this overwhelming excessive inflammatory response in the lungs called cited kind storm where you get way too high levels of inflammation the body's trying too hard to fight a code which may explain why people with inflammatory conditions like diabetes hypertension and obesity are at risk for hospitalization and death. Because they're more likely to get this kind storm and many of these nutrients have really clear experimental benefits against reducing cited kind storm zinc in particular Quercetin IGGY CG which is from from Green Tea EG CG for example multiple diverse models of lung injury if you injure the lungs in many different ways including violent faction in animal models it blunts that excessive response in animals. He'll better and live longer. So so if you put all these nutrients together. I can't tell you for sure that they would have efficacy against covy. We don't we don't know but compared to some other things it's at least there's at least as much evidence to test leads and and compared to let's say chloroquine hydroxy Lawless side effects. A lot in the side effects are very very safe and so we're really interested in doing a rigorous randomized trial to testes and one of my frustrations what really keeps me up at night. Right now is research takes time. It takes nine to put together the protocol the human subjects approval and get funding. And we're GONNA go to Major Federal Foundation funders and get try to get. This trial started as soon as possible. But we could complete this trial in a few months. if we have a sufficient funding and and I can tell you where we can talk more about. This is good nutrients and yeah well. It's fascinating it's fascinating because what you're saying is based on science. It's so out of the purview. But we normally think about and people go there worth the evidence but it's like it's there it's not something you normally pay attention to sort of been the aside mirror and if you think just selenium study if there was a drug that could reduce mortality. Fivefold Headline News. But I mean this is just one Dragon. Use The synergistically. They work synergistically with multiple different mechanisms. So so I guess what I'm having for dinner. I'm having a couple of Brazil. Nuts don't have more than two or three because they get too much selenium. I'm going to have chicken liver for the vitamin A. I'm GonNa have always tres and pumpkin seeds for the zinc. I'M GONNA have courson containing onions and eventually spinach and I'm going to have I'm GonNa have mushrooms and Herring Vitamin D. And I'm I'm going to top it off with some green tea at the end and I think it's by mute system. That's a pretty tough for most people to take out. I'll taste day together so I think you know in terms of specific nutrients we looked at. We looked at several. I forgot I'm GonNa make a curry because of the turmeric that you mentioned so some some of the promising nutrients that that we thinker less specific decoded but interesting but but not at the top of our list are are know vitamin C. VITAMIN IN D. Two merick selenium and the b-vitamins Are All nutrients which could have some efficacy in beneficial benefits for the immune system. They don't have the specific evidence for you know. Halfway Specific Nineteen Selenium study. Just you just mentioned is kind of one of the first. There are interesting vitamin A. Also they're all interesting. I think the ones that we have put together that we think are off. Candidates are Zinc Carson vitamin E and E G. Cg and actually think it's the combination putting before together now would have benefit. I'm really testing the combination because they all have subtle mild small effects. These aren't drugs this is and I'm sure you're up here. You're getting a lot of big Pharma wanting to fund these studies right but if we if we test the combination we think together they'll work synergistically in a complimentary way and again there so safe. The chats three. You're saying this is not something a user an ICU. But this is the general population could help us be more resilient in the face of Kobe. Nineteen well we think the best population would be people who are just us This could work for prevention. This could work in the sickest sickest patients in the ICU. That seems less likely. So I think based on mechanisms when you're first leg nosed these es nutrients could help reduce the progression reduce the severity reduced. The days of illness prevent you from getting to the hospital. If you're in the hospital already prevent you from needing a mechanical ventilator. So that's the population we're GONNA target. And I want to emphasize that I am not recommending taking these things because we don't know yet if activity against against my immune boosting dinner of chicken livers inherent right helped. Say the problem with that because there's a lot of nutrients that are in food and if you eat them regularly you're going to up your levels of these nutrients and it's not that hard. I mean vitamin D is a little hard yacky. Harry and a Lotta Pechiney Mushrooms. Or you have to go in the Sun half-naked for twenty minutes between ten and two south of Atlanta but they are take a supplement but for most of these you actually can get them from your food and I think food is always the strategy and that's really why now for two reasons. It seems like it. You're saying one you want to improve your diet. Because you want your metabolic health in terms of insulin. Resistance and the inflammation goes along with being overweight and chronic diseases. But you also want to up level your nutrient density the micro nutrients in your food by choosing smartly the foods that contain these nutrients. So you kind of have a double strategy for addressing your metabolic and nutritional health to make yourself more more strong in terms of preventing and maybe even recovering from in nineteen and. You're also going to be helping society at large by taking care of yourself by reducing the burden on our hospitals and healthcare systems and helping people to open up the economy. That's maybe why some of these European populations are struggling. I mean look at Sweden. I mean there are generally much healthier population they want to help us populations in the world and they have an open society but they're not seeing the same rates as we are and I'm wondering if maybe that's partly because of their general health. What do you think well we for sure again from clear evidence the United States? That if you don't have these conditions you have far far lower risk of hospitalizations and deaths and so I actually think that you know. Probably the regions of the world where per infected person. We're GONNA see the fewest deaths are going to be the you know rural low income regions of the world. So there's our door doorbell live live live on gassing the beauties of working at home my cat walk through the scene. I'm sure my children won't will run by on but I think that you know. It's very plausible. That in you know rural sub Saharan Africa Rural Asia. You know rural regions where there's a lot of poverty there's going to be huge rates of infection. I mean very rapid rates of infection by the percentage of people are going to be ostracized and dead among infected. I think is going to be going to be quite low and this is why getting to your point about food. Food is so important for this. Double Benefit This is why we need policy fix. This is why as you covered your book. You know. Our our policies are not in line to help or support people to eat healthy food. We have almost three and four. American adults are overweight or obese And about half of American adults have diabetes or prediabetes. When you start you know saying that a healthy population is the small minority of the population right and should it? Not Okay Right. It's it should be. That people with disease are the minority and we generate healthy. You've completely flip that on its head and we have a tiny tiny Population is actually healthy and everybody else has disease and most of that disease all of it. Most diseases is strongly rated. Yes so so we wrote you wrote in your CNN article that before Cova. Nineteen that poor diet kills five hundred and thirty thousand Americans every year about fifteen hundred deaths every day before over nineteen yeah so cove nineteen is is is tragic and these fifty thousand deaths. You're already in. The United States are tragic and and we need to be doing everything we can to reduce this and at the same time before cove in nineteen around forty thousand. Americans were dying every month directly from Diet related diseases that we estimated that would not have happened at Diet and so and we. Weren't you know going up in arms and saying this is that we have to stop this. This is causing catastrophe. But it was it was it's causing you know Billions of dollars. Tens of billions of dollars in provincial. Health care costs which burdens are American businesses which burdens are federal governments and state state government budgets. On it's causing incredible disparities big differences between the haves and have nots in our society and it's causing a lot of suffering and it's overwhelming healthcare system. So so here's where I think you know I and moving beyond the today to think about the rest of twenty thousand eight twenty twenty one next administration. We really need to take this learning from Cova that that we do not have healthy population. And when you don't have the healthy population in crisis strikes it shuts down the economy and people and business upper. We need to take that knowledge and fix the food system. And there's you know concrete things we can do. So we we. We in medicine have a phrase. It's called acute on chronic. Someone is a smoker as emphysema. They get pneumonia. They're not going to do so great. And if you're a healthy guy and you get a little ammonia. It's called walking pneumonia. It's like having a bad cold and that's exactly what's happening now. Cove is the acute on chronic disease. Obesity pandemic we have and and it may seem like why are we talking about chronic z? We have a big infectious pandemic. Let's just focus on that but now you're saying is more important than ever to address and before it's interesting ironic. You reported created a report on the fiftieth anniversary of the White House. Conference on food health and nutrition that you publish with your team from Tufts and colleagues Harvard. Which laid out in early in March where red for this. All took up was like perfect. Timing a series of strategies to really address this chronic disease pandemic the underlying failures in our food policies and the food system and it was. It was really brilliantly done and address a lot of things we talked about my book Including things like leveraging the power of the USDA programs to improve nutrition utilizing economic incentives to get people to eat healthier food and incentivize not so great food protecting our children from you know avaricious marketing and advertising. I think we if we if we were foreign nation. We're doing to our kids. We're doing what we'd go to war to protect them but we just let it happen. And then you even focused on healthcare and health professionals. How do we get healthcare to focus on food medicine? How do we train our doctors and healthcare providers to understand nutrition and incentivize better nutrition knowledge and treatment of chronic disease? And then how do we address Agriculture Sustainability? And these. These are all intersecting ideas. Not any one of them is going to fix the problem and you sort of identified eleven different key sectors addressed within these five things so so can you talk about given now say you were hired by the next president to be the foods are what are you going to be your key strategies so that we can improve the overall health of our population and we make ourselves more prepared for the next pandemic from infection. And how do we address? The health disparities. The economic challenges the climate environmental challenges all these intersecting issues which offers silos and you're a big system's thinker and often people are in silos within Congress or within medicine or academia. But somehow you've got to go wait a minute. Let me go thirty thousand feet and see how all these things connected. And how do we solve all them by working on them in a coherent way? Well you know the the Inspiration for that report. Was that nine hundred sixty nine. There is a White House conference on food food nutrition and health. That was focused on the big problem of the day which was true calorie malnutrition true hunger. I mean there were operations in the United States. Where you'd see kids with the tiny arms and distended bellies that you now see. And you know sort of famine-stricken nations elsewhere. There is true lack of food and in many places in this country And it was dire and so John Mayer who went on to become president of tops and found our school and I hold John Mayer Professorship quite humble to do that. John Mayer worked with President. Nixon a Republican organizes conference. They brought together all the stakeholders and they put together. about Sixteen hundred recommendations to fix the BOOT system thinking about sheer hunger. Only six hundred. Yeah I say that because there wasn't fixed right but they looked two years later. Fourteen hundred of them have been implemented and so that conference dramatically changed in. Osita way the way we approach hunger in this country so led to expansion standardization of school lunch expansion and standardization of the food stamps program it led to Wick. There was no program for mothers with infants and led to the creation of Wick. Which is the program that one and two babies in our country are born on wick which is errol program gives healthy foods to MOMS with with babies on the lead team nutrition axe labeling it led to other consumer protection that FDA it was quite instrumental in changing our policy and essentially eliminating caloric unger. We have another kind of hunger now. People have healthy food. It eliminated that sort of severe orrick. Malnutrition the country country And so you know. Fifty years later we said that was the last time there was a high level role attention on our food system. We have new problems right. We have diabetes. Obesity hypertension incredible disparities diet related cancers. All the new things we're learning about diet and brain health food allergies auto immunity inflammatory diseases health. We are facing a very very different food crisis. Now than fifty years ago the military you know More than half of young. Americans can't enroll military because they off by and number one. Medical reason is overweight or obesity and so a large group of retired admirals and Generals Mission Readiness. More than seven hundred. Fifty retired admirals and generals had said that that childhood obesity is a national security crisis or not ery so so this was just said piggyback on that and then Orleans. She continues in that report. The most striking statistic I saw was that the evacuation from Afghanistan and Iraq. There were seventy two percent more evacuations related to A. B. C. D. related problems than for war injuries which was just mind blowing to me. This is not even the people trying to get people already in the military who are struggling with overweight and obesity in poor health. Well I'm GONNA divert away from report and come back but a line. Art Refers Occcupation Health was very interested in first responders in helping policemen and firemen and improving their health and understanding what was causing their risks. Which you know again in this era's more important never and so he started studying. What was chilling police And Fire fighters on the job on the job and to his great surprise the number one cause of their of their on the job deaths where heart attacks and other you know a challenge is not getting shot or getting killed in the fire and then he started looking at well. What's so different about? Firemen and policemen found that higher rates are attack their age than than the average American adults and the number one number one factor lecture. They're just horrible. Diet because of working shifts working cars working overnight. You know the sort of the pervert. You know the the The the the donuts are donuts. Writer that's so he. He sort of shifted his focus to seeing how we can improve the nutrition police and firefighter so so it is it. Is this this quiet overwhelming disaster that you know? Our fighting forces policemen firefighters. Children are all getting killed. Mowed down by metabolic diseases. And where we sort of shrug. Because it's happened over. Decades and and humans are evolved were evolved biologically to respond to acute risk. This is GonNa kill me today. We're not biologically evolved to understand in the same way risks. That might kill us over months to years because you know back in the day when we were out on the Savannah right we about that that Sabertooth Tiger right in front of us. Not something that was going to happen. You know a year later and so something like Kobe. A true crisis at we think. Oh my God I could die. Changes everything and yet diabetes. Obesity HYPERTENSION CANCERS. Autoimmune diseases allergies chronic. Kidney disease you know all these things that are diet related that are still killing our operation and incredible numbers on. We were sort of assuming as normal so so so I think get to go back to to the report. I think there are three big picture principles that that. I'd like to highlight that I think are report highlights One is that there are concrete. Solutions are very real very concrete solutions that we can fix this to you know. Many of these are win win so this is not like tobacco where we're just trying to get rid of it an entire industry. We want to help the food industry from farmers to manufacturers restaurants to producers to retailers. We WANT TO HELP THEM. Healthier more sustainable more affordable food to people. So they can do. It can be win win and three. This can happen quickly. This is not a five year plan. We could change things within a few years if we implemented that the right policies and as you said there's about you know there's no single black magic bullet. It's one of those hanging fruit. I mean you know. We had a great conversation. They talking about the dietary guidelines for America and the dietary guidelines are interesting because they're designed for a healthy population and you just said that only twelve percent of us are healthy so it doesn't apply to most of us it is amazing you know. The dietary guidelines are incredibly positive process. I'm not somebody to bash. The doctor guidelines are one of the great things the government does which is get scientists together review the guidelines carefully put on islands. Every five years. There are problems in the process. So one of the biggest problems is that the scientific report at the scientists right then goes to the federal government and they change it. You know without exactly knowing how to put out the guidelines and usually it's ninety percent solar but but some big things are changed probably because of industry influence so there are problems but the other problem that you mentioned that or really the lost opportunity. Is that the Nitra guidelines by definition by law. I think are for generally healthy population and so they they specifically say these Dietrich islands are not to treat any disease or to help give anybody specific dietary guidance. If you have any specific disease you should see your doctor. You know that music. Ninety percent of Americans die Drei. Islands don't apply to them because they diseases right. And that's a challenge but so the low hanging fruit. Well I think that You know there are. There are several. It's not it's not one. I think. One is to engage and leverage the power expertise and finances of the healthcare system for food and nutrition. So so the number one cause of poor health in our country poor nutrition is ignored by healthcare system. And so we have to take this massive system that we've created our doctors. Our healthcare system is a lot of wonderful things about it. We have to take this massive system that we've created and use. Its resources our to help improve through nutritious food as medicine and and you know things like healthy produce prescription programs. We go to the doctor if you're food insecure and have diabetes or hypertension or some of these other conditions and you get a prescription to to pay for summer all healthy as one example. That's that's a clear low hanging fruit to get food as medicine into healthcare. Another one I think is to better use better leverage the investment of snap the The the the program formerly known as food stamps about one in seven Americans were on snap before Kobe hit. And you know it's it's going to go up for isn't it one in four kids and I don't know the exact statistic art with Burr. More kids in so maybe one on four kids. Yeah there's there's a large number of children on south. There's large number of elderly on snappers larger military active duty military staffers people in the military whose families are on snap. Because they don't have enough money for food and so it's not just for you know it's not just a hand. This is families. Elderly veterans active duty military. Who really need a helping hand to snap is a wonderful program powerful program to get money to people who need money to buy food and and and that's crucial and we need to strengthen There's a lot of people who say what's in Costumer at seventy billion dollars a year. It costs too much about had it spending. You know what I say is instead of cutting its funding. Let's let's use it to lower healthcare costs and then it will pay for itself and so we use it to lower healthcare costs by incentivizing disincentivising certain kinds of foods so that people still have have choice. They cancelled choose what they want to eat. But we're actually leveraging snap to make people to make people healthier for the farmers market you get double your money if you use food stamps at your farmers market yeah we. We did a national simulation model in very rigorous modeling science to say. What would happen if you did something which we call snap plus no snap plus would be if you bought fruits vegetables nuts or rains fish or other seafood healthy plant oils beans a whole range of produce? You'd get thirty cents more on your dollar you'd get a dollar thirty per dollar snap benefit on and at the same time to help to help paper that and also disincentivize healthy foods unhealthy foods if you bought you know soda or other sugary beverages or junk food or you know highly processed cheered needs you get thirty percents less on your dollar you get seventy cents on the dollar and you know that you know upfront you have a choice of you know what you. WanNa get and you can get a little more or a little less on your dollar that snap plus program would immediately be cost savings. That actually wouldn't add anything to the SNAP. Budget billions of dollars right would save tens of billions of dollars in healthcare costs. You know that the government and others are paying. So it's just kind of a natural thing knows would offset of snap right. So you're saying he got it wouldn't fully offset the cost but it would. It would still in the day were were giving to everybody including children and so it would take a long time to see returns on healthcare investment for children but it would it would save tens and tens of billions of dollars in healthcare spending without increasing costs of snap at all and so it would certainly be lead to lower government spending so. I think those are two clear things that could be done. I think I think to other things mentioned. No one is to really help. Spur and catalyze the ongoing revolution in in innovation and entrepreneurship so businesses everywhere from farm to retail to personalized medicine to packaged foods are rapidly trying to innovate because customers are demanding different foods. They want food that I think is going to make them healthier. That's sustainably sourced. That's good for environments. That comes from sustainable labor or fair Labor practices and so companies are scrambling figure this out too hot or get healthier affordable food to people and right now you know it's just the market is determining what works and what doesn't and so that means that companies that are really trying to innovate and do the right thing if their product costs a little more because they're making it healthier if it doesn't taste quite as good because they've needed healthier they're at a disadvantage and so an that's insane right with those companies should be should be at an advantage we we need a national program to spur innovation in in in business to help reward through tax policy and other policies help reward. Us companies. That are trying to do the right thing and then I guess I would give two more two more things already. A fourth item. I think is to really expand federal nutrition research You know as the as a percentage of overall research federal nutrition research has been pretty flat for for forty years and while Diet related illness has skyrocketed. And so you know we should be really prioritizing at national health at USDA at the Department of Defense at the Va at the FDA. All these places the at NASA all these places that actually already nutrition research. We should be really prioritizing amplifying or meeting that research I love research. Yeah we need. We need strong. Wouldn't have been great if over the last ten years. We had multiple well-funded studies on you treatments and immune system. Yeah and so. When Kobe hit we had already stockpile that you know army metareum of evidence and so as soon as go hit we could leverage this file release that stockpile and and you know enthoven and and not have this crisis right. I'm so so we. We really need to much much better. Understand you know food in the microbiome and winks to health personalization all the phenolics and flab animals You know that are in veteran foods. Anything research questions supply chains disparities. Yes I think that fourth thing is we really need a major new investments in federal nutritional. You talking about the national suit of nutrition right. Yeah that's one option. We we've been reviewing options funded by the rock were found nation. And we've come up with several options and we're going to release that report the summer. What are the options could be a new institute at the National Institutes of Health? There's twenty seven institutes and centers at the National Health and ratchet. They're actually asking the wrong name. It should be called the national institutes of diseases. Because it's not. There's no health in their. This'll be the first one that focuses on health. Most of them are deceased focused. There's one on heart disease one king answer. I mean there's an institute on complementary medicine it's fairly small but there are some Y- okay but Trish in so you know what Dan Dan? Glickman who your friend and former agriculture secretary said he reviewed the NIH national health strategic plan and nutrition was off. Sorry food was mentioned in there only once and it was in the context of the Food and Drug Administration. So that's likes really sad that that was that was last year and this year's plan that was that was released actually is which is an advance mostly around precision nutrition Understanding induced personalized nutrition. Which is Great? Yeah so that's in advance so we go. We Wanna go gradually good. I didn't know about that but you know they were fun. We don't WanNa take away from the existing institutes. We don't want to say okay. We're going to create a new national soon attrition and take away some funding somewhere else. We want to be added. It right has realized this is a national priority. And take this on. It just seems so. Have you started? Because if food is the biggest driver of disease in America. How do we have no institute? Organization within the government focused on studying. It's just it's like a what well you know. Mark Mark you hit me on the head. Let's let our healthcare system doesn't address the leading cause of health are the nationalities of health. Doesn't have a institute focused on the leading cause of Corell and the number one cause of death and disability in this country is diet related diseases and venable health spending and why active duty military recruits starry white otherwise qualified military coots can't get into you forces on and on number one cause of death for first responders is dying and all make sense the the front of my book. The opening quotas from Wendell. Berry says we have a food. Industry either pays no attention to health and the health care industry. That pays no attention to food. I think that's not a optimist by nature after all the doom bloom on optimus mark. And I think your book really lays out some of these options options really well that that the healthcare industry is now starting to pay attention to food. Is You know waking up to this and the food industry starting to pay attention to nutrition so these worlds are starting to converge. Happening too slowly. I don't WanNa wait fifty years the fixed. That's right now. Ten Yeah Health. Health care is is getting groups like Kaiser Permanente John Hancock insurance others are starting to incentivize and care about healthy. Eating and food companies are starting to try to create more nutritious products. And so you know it has to take on this crazy complicated system and help spur it. In catalyze leverage it nurture it faster. I'm which brings me to the fifth. You know kind of low hanging fruit You know that that that I think we could do in the next administration Would be to create a national organizing. You know office to organize all of these federal food and nutrition policies and programs. I'm after September eleventh. There was which was a devastating crisis to our country There was recognition that the all of the national intelligence agencies did work separately but that it wasn't coordinated and so you know the FBI and the CIA and always other groups were talking to each other and that was limiting our ability to respond quickly and effectively to intelligence prices so the office of the Director of national intelligence is created Odeon. I which is a cabinet level office reports to the Office of the President and coordinates Oliver National Intelligence and brings that coordinated single message and information to the president to Congress that the heads of agencies and freights coordinated actions with the unbelievable fragmentation of our food system in our nutrition response that Kobe has really laid bare. It's time I think for a similar office around food nutrition policy. You know we would call it. The opposite of national director of ood nutrition we Owen Defen- very similar to the Odeon. I would be a cabinet level position for the first time ever would say we're spending well over a hundred billion dollars a year in the federal government on fishing shoes. Let's coordinate it. Let's bring it together so now I mean the mad if you count in the healthcare costs like you know eighty percent of the trillion dollar one point of care we're talking about trillions of dollars that the federal government alone with the states because the states paper for Medicaid but government alone Hayes hundred sixty billion dollars a year for direct medical care for type two diabetes alone so suggest type two diabetes which is mostly preventable condition. If you can can eat well and treatable condition is one hundred and sixty nine years absolutely so well over five hundred billion a year you count healthcare spending on. We should coordinate it so that you know what's going on in the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services. And what's going on in school lunch and what's going on and snap or what's going on with and what's going on food labelling and once going health claims and what's going on in the Department of Defense Research around performance and recovery from injury and what's going on. Va around the our military veterans. All this were all this programming which is disjointed and disconnected all the USDA INCREDIBLE USDA agricultural research and policy to help stimulate farmers and rural development right US massive programs to develop rural development USDA. Actually the farm bill is the biggest single supporter of conservation. People criticized the FARMVILLE. But it's the single biggest conservation program. The APP to help coordinate all of that and so I think a new National Coordinating Office is actually not high in the sky. It's it's actually really an idea whose time has come while. Hope you're talking that into the ear of the candidates because this is. This is the moment to to make that happen. And drawing the connections helping people see the intersection of chronic disease pandemic we have our environmental crises climate change now security academic performance on social inequities health disparities. I mean these are not separate issues. And what's amazing to me is. These are not hard problems to solve. It's not rocket science. It's not going to have to come up for the cure for Alzheimer's or something really hard. This is this is something we know about. You've been writing about three decades. Your colleagues and everybody at Tufts and Harvard have been shouting from the rooftops. The problem is nobody's really been listening and I think now it's time for them to really listen and it seems like there's a real openness. Listen this is that moment in history where there's a crack in the door and I think we can walk through and and tell a different story and actually help transform our our national foods policies and agriculture policies across all these sectors. You talked about encourage you to check out this report I mean it's it's fantastic. You can just google it. The report of the Fiftieth Anniversary of the White House conference on food nutrition and Health. That was put out in. March as this condemning started and and it really lays out Kind of unwittingly the solution for what we have right now literally. It was implemented tomorrow. I think we'd all be better off. Thank you so much for having me and for letting us discuss these issues you know. This is kind of a principal. Functional Medicine Right. Functional medicine isn't for patients isn't some Hokey pokey magic. It's just that when somebody comes in with hypertension and diabetes and joint pain and obesity. You don't treat each of those a separate problems and and get one dry for you say well. What's underlying functional of all of this and let's go to the root and try to fix the root of the problem well. This is functional medicine for our country and for our food system. We haven't even talked about regenerative agriculture. You briefly mentioned kid learning in school. You know productivity of the workforce on it incredible disparities and injustice across different segments of the population. So much of this is related to our food and nutrition system and we have to stop trying to put our fingers in the dike. One at a time to fix this time and say we have a systems problem and it's not rocket science not brain surgery. It's pretty basic stuff that we can do and it's win win. It's win win for industry. It's win win for farmers it's win win for pretty much. Everybody so I think it's the time has come through that door so I've asked you all the easy question. I WanNa ask you a hard question. You say win win but you know. What are the obstacles other than lack of education awareness to actually make this happen? Who are the people or the organizations are companies that are going to be resisting the change because I think there will be and how? How do we work around that? How do we? How do we work around that? It depends on the approach right if the approach is only Punitive if the approaches which some countries are doing like Chile Mexico. Some of these new food system programs They say look. We think there's too much salts and sugar and You know saturated fat in the food supply. So we're going to penalize companies through warning labels or other things if they have those and we're gonNA restrict marketing and that's it. That's the only approach food industry is going to be kind of annoyed. Her going to say you know all you're doing is is hitting us for the negatives in our products what if we have a fermented product if we add fruits in product. What if we increase for grains what if we tried to have more healthy oils? You're not getting credit for that. So so I think that if you take a punitive approach there's GonNa to be some big time opposition from publicly traded companies that have stockholders the shareholders. Excuse me there You know All too and and financial responsibilities. I think if you if you take a a win win. Approach that look. We're going to use sticks and carrots. We're GONNA help companies that are doing the right thing we're GONNA help you shift your portfolio. We're reward farms. That are doing the right thing you know of. Course there's there's some products that are GonNa you losers right so some single you know. Single products may not be around much longer or they may not be sold that much or they may cost more. But you don't food. Companies are diverse in bait console. Lots of things restaurants or diverse inconsolable beans farmers in overtime. Lots of things. So we don't have a monolithic system with one product like tobacco that we have to get rid of so so. I think that the real oppositions going to be fear of loss right so nobody wants to lose what they have now so whether it's fear of loss in research that research agency say well the new research agency focus on nutrition. Lose it on now. A Food Company says look. I don't WANNA lose. Twenty percent of my portfolio. A farmer says I don't want to lose their. It's fear of loss right so there's no I don't think there's anybody entrenched with a line in the sand that I'm going to grow you know You know corn and I want that horn to go to corn Syrup in soda and that's it no matter what and I don't I don't care what you say to me. That's what I WANNA do now. I don't think there's many people that are going to say that. I think that people say. Oh Yeah biking grew corn in that. Corrigan go in make whole grain whole corn corn meal. That can be healthy and impaired with vegetables and be part of a healthy meal and I get actually a little bit more because my crop tastes better in his nutritionally. Soundness grown regenerative agriculture and I can get a little more profit because customers pay for that because it lowers. Yeah it can be win win. I think the report is really brilliant because threads the needle on that really tough question of. How do you bring everybody along on the team? Even the reluctant wants that's that's the brilliance of this report. It's not it's not blow up the world and start again. It's like how do we make smart choices in the policies? So that being get alignment on every side of the aisle on all sides of business on consumers everyb-. I don't think there's anybody in any business in any seat of government or any any one of our citizens who wakes up and says you know what I want to create a system that makes people sick and fat and kids not people learn and people depressed and in make our national security worse and causes destruction of our agricultural environment. There's nobody that says that or once that as a human being and so I believe we appeal to human beings who are behind these companies and behind these policies that that most of them will be able to be a few but most of them will be able to brought along. And I think it's you know we've been in Washington and I think you've been lot in Washington probably more than I have. And what's really striking is that there's a really general lack of education awareness about these issues. Like the level. Of of being informed of policymakers so low on their hearing a lot of information from the food industry from big lobbyists. But there's not a lot of lobbyists for the good guys right. We run down to Washington and we like we pay our own way like run around. And it's like but it's it's it's farm. Who Between. Well you know these are complicated issues right. It's a complicated system. You know living in Boston almost twenty years. I'll see it's wicked complicated with a really bad Boston accent. Wicked complicated Wicked complicated system right and and so you ask me. What's the low hanging fruit? I couldn't give you and second sound bite are complicated issues here. So so getting that complicated message to the public policy makers when they're so busy they're so overwhelmed. They have so much they're doing you know they're they're they're thinking every possible issue under the sun and getting people to see these interlinkages any solutions challenging and so I think that you know. Communication is a huge huge part of this It's not the solution righteous. Just talking about it doesn't fix things but communication through what we're doing through other avenues is crucial. And you know there's no. There has been historically no funding for that right. Nobody's paying public health experts and physicians and scientists to communicate where people pay us to teach into new research and people pay clinicians to see patients scientists to do research. Nobody pays us to actually go out and spend our time you know and I don't need to get paid extra. I just mean the staff instructors to do that. Communication Jocelyn Murnian don't exist and so I actually think that you know an effort building around the themes in our White House report building around the themes in your book. I think effort to bring some you know interested people together to create a coalition of of people in some funding to bring this message out and to Tell People. There are actually solutions. That help us right now. I think would be really wonderful. Well we're on the way we you and I are collaborating on the food fixed campaign which was a nonprofit advocacy group exactly designed to do this bringing together. A coalition of all the stakeholders across all sectors involved in the food system and science and health care and agriculture to really have a coordinated strategy and bring these ideas into the two thousand keep people in Washington who make decisions at the White House and Congress and agencies that can make a difference and I think this is really never happened before. I'm super excited about some anybody. Listening is excited about this. Anybody wants to get behind it whether you have money or you have relationships that can make a difference or connections or just ideas. We'd love to hear so I'm so excited that this is going to be. Even though this is a horrific time this is going to be a little window of opportunity for us to actually make a big difference so I just what you've done what you're doing. You're my hero in all this and I vote for you for the head of that office in the cabinet. That's going to be in charge of whether you want the job or not. I'm quite happy at the Friedman School of nutrition science cars. Well thank you so much being on the doctors pharmacy. I really appreciate your time. And you're busy and if you've been listening to this podcast and you love what you heard. Please leave a comment. We'd love to hear from you. Share with your friends and Family. Social Media. Subscriber every podcast. And we'll see you next time on the docket. Everybody's soccer hyman. Thanks for tuning into the doctor's pharmacy. I hope you're loving this podcast. One of my favorite things to do and introducing you all the experts that I know and I love and that I've learned so much from and I'm WanNa tell you about something else. I'm doing which is called marks picks. It's my weekly newsletter and in it. I share my favorite stuff from foods supplements to gadgets tools to enhance. Your health. Is All the cool stuff that I use. And then my team uses to optimize our health and I love you to sign up for the weekly newsletter. Only Senate you once a week on Fridays. Nothing else a promise. And all you do is go to Dr Hyman DOT COM forward slash picks to sign up. That's Dr Hyman DOT COM four sized picks Pi C. K S and sign up for the newsletter and. I'll share with you my favorite stuff that I used to enhance my health and get healthier and better and live younger longer. Now back to this week's episode. Hi Everyone I hope you enjoyed this week's episode just a reminder that this podcast is for educational purposes only. This podcast is not a substitute for professional care by doctor or other qualified medical professional. This podcast is provided on the understanding that it does not constitute medical or other professional advice or services. If you're looking for helping your journey seek out a qualified medical practitioner if you're looking for a functional medicine practitioner you can visit IFM dot. Org and search. They're fine a practitioner database. It's important that you have someone in your corner who's trained. Who's a licensed healthcare practitioner and can help you make changes especially when it comes to your health?
TechStuff Classic: How BitTorrent Works
"Welcome to textile production from iheartradio. He there in welcome to tech stuff I'm your host Jonathan Strickland I'm an executive producer with iheartradio and love things tech, and now we are going to listen to a classic episode. This originally aired on August, twelfth, two, thousand, thirteen in his called. How bittorrent works so we actually get down to the bottom of how torrents work, and what's the big deal about it? Why is it so controversial and is it at its heart illegal? Almost sort of questions are the things we ask in and try to answer in this episode. Hope you guys enjoy it. To start off. We need to talk about just how you would typically get a file. Right how files are transferred period at all or under the normal process. By either by by any of the protocols that you would use over the Internet, be the FTP HDP up that's file transfer, protocol, or hypertext transfer protocol. Excellent acronyms So traditionally your your computer. which in this scenario we call, the client is going to contact a computer server in order to. To say hey, I want that thing exactly. Whether the thing is a web page, so if your web browser can be a client. I could be a webpage. That thing could be music file. It could be a movie file it could be. An email it all depends. Content right that that you want to get the sent file to your computer, according to whichever protocol you're using. And using the basic set of rules that we all know from the Internet idea of everything's in packets. Those packets travel through different routes and then get reassembled on your computer, but yeah, it's essentially a one to one relationship right I'm asking the server to send me something. The service to the client done done an. The speed with which can happen depends on the amount of traffic on the server the size of the file. Yes, so let's let's boil this down to an analogy all right so lauren. You are a server. I am Yes so now you have entered into. The service industry. You are a server in a coffee shop. Okay, you sir terrible at that job. Go ahead and clumsy, but let's let's imagine lauren that this is a reality where you're not terrible at your job. You're actually pretty good. You can serve up to three people simultaneously. Wow, so amazing, but only three people, and and the amount of time it takes you to produce the order for the customer depends upon what they ordered like what size of it and how complicated the drink? Obviously, these things will factor into how long it takes you to prepare it, but you can still handle up to three, but then there's a rush right like I. Don't know there's some hipster band is in town, and everyone needs your coffee, so they all rush the coffee shop. Shop at the same time, and now you've got twenty people asking you to make very complicated drinks, but you can only serve three to time, and these drinks are getting progressively more complicated and larger things. Start to slow down that person. WHO's you know? Seventeen people back feels like they're waiting for ever to get coffee and they're thinking. What's the big deal? It should only take? It's just a coffee should just take two minutes I should be in and out in two minutes, and instead of been sitting here for fifteen minutes lines barely moved. That's the same thing we experience with this traditional approach if you're talking about a single server hosting a lot of files. A lot of clients contacting the server for the files. Those files are big. It just means that things can get bottlenecked and slow so there were some different approaches to try to figure out how to make this. More streamlined and put one way is to just increase broadband speed. Right here essentially if you're talking about the Internet being a series of tubes. That's. Bigger bigger longer kids more to bigger tubes and more tubes. Yeah, those are your two choices right? You make them bigger so that you can shove more stuff through the tubes, or you make a lot more of them so that there are on new ways for it. Pass through, but you're still kind of bottlenecked by the the server itself, and how quickly it can respond. Respond to requests share so if this approach is really slow than one alternative is to distribute a file across a network so that you have lots of different options when you need to get that file right so in this instance, instead of saying that Lauren is the only person who can serve coffee within a twenty mile radius, and that's why we're all kind of. You know up the creek when we walk into the coffee shop and we see this fifteen people instead. We have a coffee shop on every corner. Yeah, and across the street from each other next door to one. Another coffee coffeeshops everywhere so really. I just have to walk into any coffee shop and. In, the middle of the street and shout coffee and someone will bring one. So that's that's kind of the idea of peer to peer network. In this sense, you have some form of software that allows you to connect to a distributed network where when you participate in this network near essentially giving permission to access part of your hard drive, you just set aside a little folder on your hard drive that that is okay for this program to access and everyone else was running. The same program also has folders set up. Hopefully to have stuff in them right? Yeah, because one thing you could do is, you could sit up this folder and immediately move stuff. And then you're leaching. That's the term right right it's. It's considered a Faux Pas. Sharing sharing circles just because you're. You're not putting anything back out into the community so with peer to peer. Let's say you've got this folder. That's designated as a shared folder, and when you're connected to the software, anyone who's also connected the software when they're searching for a specific file. If your file. If you happen to have that file within your folder, you come up as an option to connect to download from your computer now. The problem with peer to peer, even it solves one issue. The the one issue is that if you go with the client server. Model then you are limited by the server like if the servers the only machine out there, that has an existing version of this filed, and that's one destination you can go to, and you are stuck with whatever problems that might have peer to peer. You're adding more tubes, but you're not making them any bigger right so in other words like I. Could you know if we going back to our coffee shop? Example and we have these coffeeshops everywhere I can walk to the coffee shop. That's closest to me, but there's no guarantee that that coffee shop won't have the world's slowest server or Someone who's just they. They're very meticulous about the way they make their coffee, or there might be two or three people in front of me at the coffee shop and I have to wait for them. Anyway, it gives me more options. It does not necessarily mean it'll be faster and the really good software will identify the person with the best connection. Has that file exactly? Yes, so that way it gives you the best chance of having a smooth transfer, and it's also good to note that this creates more stability when you're trying to get a file, so the other big issue with. With the old client server approach is that that server suffers a problem if it goes down for some reason, power outage, or whatever then you're stuck, you know you, don't you? Do not get that file, and if you were trying to download a big file and it was maybe seventy percent of the way done, and the power goes out. There's a chance that file could get corrupted in the process, and then you have to start all over again. Right? which was a real bummer when peer to peer was was really big back in the early two thousands like late ninety two. because. It was about one, thousand, nine, hundred five that modems. That could that could handle broader band than fourteen, four, twenty, eight eight feeds became available for consumer purchase, and after that know when when people started getting connected to the Ethernet was really when. Peer to peer happened, and then you you were able to. You know the one of the downsides. Is that traditionally with most Internet Service Providers Your upload speed is a fraction of what your download speed is. The reason for that is that ages ago when companies began to offer Internet service, they looked at the broadband that they had available like the the bandwidth they had available to the size of the tubes. Essentially saying all right here's here's what we are capable of delivering to our customers. How are we going to determine? How much is downlink versus uplink? And they said well. You know probably people. People aren't sending stuff up to the Internet that frequently. They're mostly trying to consume. Stuff pulled up down. This was before we were uploading millions of years worth of youtube videos every second this was this was back when that was not even a consideration, so the idea was that well. You know we can just make it a fraction. Upload speeds will be a fraction of download because you. There's nothing as frustrating really as sitting down well, this is probably that's exaggerating, but very frustrating to sit down and try and get at some sort of content online, and then just see either a buffering thing or a loading screen, and it just goes on forever. If you're talking about the old old days of the Internet, there's nothing like trying to look at a picture of something and watch it slowly. Load Look Pixel by Pixel. You're just thinking I have no idea what I'm looking at. I won't know for another forty five minutes I would like record to state that I. Just used I just gestured at Jonathan to help you. Guys understand what he was talking about. EXACTLY HOW INEFFECTIVE! Great Visual Representation on audio podcast. Yeah so. This approach meant that we suddenly had all these other options. This peer to peer approach, and this is the way a lot of those file sharing services back in the day. Work Kazaa lime wire, napster that kind of thing they were. All about let's find people who have the stuff you want and connect the create a connection directly to them. Yeah, so it almost becomes like a direct phone line in a way where the connection is between the host computer your computer, so you can get the the file, and then of course once you have the file. Your computer can become a potential host computer. So, now an improvement on that was bittorrent suppression, right and I think it'll be really interesting to get into the the intricacies of how bittorrent works, but before we do that. Let's take a quick break. Support for tech stuff is brought to you by Manscaping who is the best in men's below the belt grooming manscaping precision engineered tools for your family jewels. They obsess over their technology developments to provide you the best tools for your grooming experience, and let's face it. It is a tough time right now, and it's very easy for us to kind of let hygiene slip away, but we shouldn't do. 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At manscaping DOT COM and use the code tech stuff, Xfinity X. FI is more than just fast. This Internet keeps all your devices secure by learning of threats blocked if your devices connected to Wifi, it's. It's protected by X. FI advanced security that includes your computer, which is really important. Since a lot of us are working from home these days. Your tablets, your smartphones, your smart speakers, your robotic vacuum cleaner, your thermostat I'm telling you if a device is connected to Wifi, it's protected by X. FI advanced security that is incredibly important these days in the age of the Internet of things, all of those things that make our lives more convenient are also potential vulnerabilities. That's why x FI advanced security is so important. You'll find peace of mind knowing any device you have connected to that Wifi network is protected. Learn more at xfinity dot com slash X. Fi. Let's get back to the show. All right. We're back and Laura. You alluded to bittorrent now. This was a totally different approach. In the sense that. It was someone coming up with the idea of? How can we make these download speeds faster, not just more reliable so that I have more options. But how can I get the stuff I want faster particularly if it's a really large file and you know and if you're if you're like Jonathan set earlier. If your Internet connection is maybe not the best and something. Something cuts out somewhere that you won't lose. All of the progress on downloading a file had already made so this was the idea of a programmer named Bram Cohen now Bram Cohen had worked for several dot com startups that never really took off it just kind of failed over and over and really wanted to work on something that worked. That was a big. Ambition of his understandable and in two thousand one. He was also getting really irritated by these problems. We're talking about the slow download speed of light files. He liked the idea of the peer to peer network, but he didn't care for the execution, so in two thousand one he begins work on a new protocol. Now we've used the word protocol several times in this podcast just to remind you a protocol really is just a set of rules. It's kind of kind of instructions for a computer to follow, so he designed a protocol that he called bittorrent. Now. This was an attempt to solve that connection problem. And the speed problem at the same time appeared justed the connection he wanted to do speed as well. So, how'd you do that well? His approach was this protocol that would allow files to be distributed in pieces, and as you receive a piece, you are also able to upload that piece even before your file finishes downloading, so I might have a file that's at. At twenty seven percent as it slowly downloading that twenty seven percent is completely available for other people on the network who are also trying to get that file. You could also get pieces of these files from multiple sources. So as long as everyone had the same file that you could get you know a piece here and a piece there so imagine that everyone has. At least some part of a five hundred piece puzzle. And one person, the street is giving you pieces. One through twenty seven and someone on another side of the street is giving you pieces forty three through one hundred fifteen, and you're just getting. You're getting the whole puzzle that you're getting from different locations all at the same time. It's like it's like if everyone in that in that Coffee House, Street has a of coffee, and you just kind of run down, and they all pour a little bit into Your Cup right? Yeah, it's similar to that except with less like gross spill contamination, and also, there's a pretty design at the top. I don't know how they managed that. Why rained on the street like a crazy person? But there talented. That's all so. He was thinking like this would be the way of solving this problem of slow download speeds now. Not necessarily, go about testing this in a very. Fantastic, scientific pc way. Did you see how he does not now? Okay, folks, here's how he tested. He collected a batch of freely available pornographic material, and then invited Beta testers to see about getting hold of this stuff using the bittorrent protocol. Stay Classy Cohen. He- figured that this was kind of a surefire way, and because it was freely available stuff, it wasn't like it wasn't. Copyright didn't have to worry about running into problems touring. Kristen's have have in fact. Run into lots of copyright issues. We'll talk about that towards the end of the show. You know that's that's a. that's totally different discussion, but he he. He wanted to try and test it out and. Apparently, that wasn't considered a terribly auspicious beginning, but he eventually did launch a working version of bittorrent for the general public in October, two, thousand and two now two years later in two thousand four, he had a five person company working on a search engine that would work alongside his protocol, so he designed the protocol, but one of the issues people were running into. How do you find the torrent files which are pointer files? I'll talk about them a little bit more in a second. How do you find these files that then facilitate the downloading process when you're, you're actually using the bittorrent software, and this is by tracker server right? So He created. He worked with this five person company. Actually this comey worked for him to create the search engine that would look for these torrents to help. Make this process work more smoothly. He was also then looked at by a little company called Valve. So valvik valve is thinking. We WanNa do a downloadable distributor network approach for our games. We want to have this ability to deliver games to our users that is fast and reliable and doesn't put a lot of pressure. On our own servers, right, we don't. We don't have to build out a whole data center just to support this this model this distribution model, so they contacted Cohen and they hired him to work on a platform that we now call steam. Cohen was one of the people who helped build that program, and it was all because they saw what he was doing with bittorrent, and they said that's the approach we wanna take, and in fact, valve and blizzard are two companies that use a bit torrent for a perfectly legitimate means of distributing their files. It's. Time to just mention. There's nothing illegal about torrent file. No, no, it's. It's just a matter of distribution. It's kind of like if you were to say yeah, but you can get illegal material that way. You can get a legal material through the mail, but you wouldn't say that means we should shut down the postal service right and you might say we should shut down the postal service for other reasons, but not for that. And same sort of argument you could use for bittorrent to say. Let's get rid of bit torn because some people are sharing illegal files, even lots of people sharing illegal files doesn't mean that the rule itself is wrong, right? The technology itself can be used lots of really cool things like yeah, like like letting people like valve put games up online without having to buy giant servers or independent artists. Put their music online right? Yeah, are a lot of reasons their entire whether it's software or video files music files. There Lunn of reasons why you would want to take this approach and. One of the big ones! Is that it like you said it takes the strain off the provider right? So if I'm a small business or an artist and independent artist, I might not have the resources available to me to create a dedicated server. People can come and download stuff especially, if I'm having to pay lots of fees to maintain that and you know I, mean you know for example if you post them music to your personal website and Neil Gaiman are wil wheaton link on twitter and all of a sudden. You're completely overwhelmed. This by the way is a complete invitation for both will wheaton and Neil, Gaiman to tweet about our podcast. We would love that. Be Gorgeous. I wouldn't even know what to do with myself. I would probably totally flip out. No, I totally flip out I wouldn't probably there. There's no probably there. Hey guys! It's twenty twenty again. We're going to take another quick break and we will be right back to talk more about bittorrent. Hey, guys. This episode is brought to you by the Sonos. Move a portable smart speaker, and it's pretty darn awesome. You can connect via a Wi fi or bluetooth, if you're connecting via Bluetooth you just stream whatever audio you want from your device to the speaker, and it sounds great, or you connected to Wifi and then you can tap into various music service features that you can add to the Sonos move, and you can really fine. Tune it so it. It really reflects your own personal love of music. I've done that with my Sonos move. I connected it to a Broadway theatre station. So I get lots of musicals, because that's how I roll, it's all Punk Rock, new wave and Broadway in my house. That's not a lie I. Really do listen to all that, but I also use it to connect to a local radio station I love this because there's this station called ninety nine x Atlanta, but it has a very weak signal and from my house I cannot pick it up with a regular terrestrial radio and get a good strong signal this way I'm connecting over. Over the Internet I'm getting incredible music quality, and it just sounds amazing, and I can just lift the speaker right off the charging station. Move it to a different room that has feature called true play tuning, so it will tune itself to the the parameter of the room in soil, still sound amazing whether I'm up on the deck or I'm down in my office. It's phenomenal. You guys got a check out. The SONOS move to learn more. GO TO SONOS DOT COM. That's S. O. N. S. DOT COM to learn more. In two thousand five already by this time, okay, the bitterns tour's only three years old. From when an officially launched. Even by then. Hollywood had taken notice and. Not Terribly happy the Motion Picture Association of America and also the recording industry is of America. That's the MPAA in the double A. Yeah. Is. That's music. Essentially an NBA is film so NBA in particular was concerned because the bittorrent protocol did make moving large files much easier, which meant that suddenly people were able to upload and download large files like rips of films. They'd take a DVD and ripped the film from the DVD, and then share it, and you would get illegal copies, or if you're working on a digital film and you were part of a digital film production and you had access to the file. There were movies leaked out. Some famous instances of movies leaked out before they had even hit the theaters. Where people were getting hold of pirated copies and Hollywood is really taking bittorrent. Even though again as we said, that turns a tool, it's not like it was specifically facilitating the illegal activity, however on November twenty second two, thousand five Bram Cohen. Had A joint news conference with the Chairman of the MPAA Dan Glickman and announced that he had agreed to prevent his own bittorrent website from linking to torrents, pointing to a legally available movies now before that point their policy was that if they were alerted to torrent that linked to those pointing. Out they would take it down, so that was their those their policy all along, but they said well now. We're just going to make sure that that's much more streamlined. which if you've followed these kind of kind of cases, not just a bit torn, but with other providers, other platforms like Youtube for example. There are examples of a takedown notices that were improperly. Dealt with yeah, in probably dealt with improperly submitted Schleyer, people who didn't actually have the rights to something demanding, they get taken down, and then it gets taken down. And then there's some embarrassing ones. I think Microsoft just recently issued a takedown request to itself yeah, so sometimes. These sort of things can end up being kind of embarrassing, but. He was saying that we want to. You know we don't want. We want to be on the up and now. Working. Yeah so. Today, you can find bittorrent on lots of different platforms in fact bit torn. Today allows you to do things like pre produce content and distribute it, so it's designed more now to help like I, said the small businesses, the independent artists to create content, and then even to to enable it so it'll. Perform properly on things like smartphones, tablets consoles creating a huge distribution network that people wouldn't have had access to ten years ago. So there are many reasons why it's a very useful tool, so let's talk a little bit about how it actually does what? Okay. Now first of all, it's open source right kind of tells you that Cohen wasn't necessarily looking to create like a a multibillion dollar, this commercial venture. No, he really believed in this. An open source means you can see the source code. You can go and get the source code for the bittorrent protocol that play around with it. Yeah, you can change it. You can make your own the product based upon it. It's open source. And, then there are sites that hells torrent files. Torrent files are not. They don't have any material in them. Other than a pointer information that will point a your software to the right destinations that will have the actual file you're looking for. It's a little bit like that that like a protocol that we were talking about, but just any in a file format, and it's Kennelling Meta. Data share information about the file. You want the information mainly being where you can get it. Allowing the software that you have on your computer in when you, when you run a program to to to go, go out and find the little pieces of this file across the Internet across the swarm computers that contain it. That's good. Yeah, it's. Your basic comp- computer that has. The file the full file on. You would call it a seed, the seed computer. And then the swarm is all the different. Computers are connected to the network that have some portion of that file and are actively downloading and or File that that are also running this this torrent right? Everything has to be working running the software at the same time. If you stop running the software on your computer, you disconnect from this network. You're still on the Internet, but you're not part of the bittorrent network and more so yeah you. The torn filed just kind of point. The software in the right direction can get these pieces that gives the the COMP- the software, the information it needs to identify and pull those those pieces of file into your computer. classically, this is all organized by central server called a tracker like I mentioned earlier. These these days that's it's a little bit. More complicated than that, but yeah, you're classic. bittorrent has a tracker server that kind of acts like a traffic driver like it's the one that's making sure everyone is going to the right place. And you're so, you've got your seed. You've got your swarm. You are constantly downloading as long as you're connected to this or downloading end up. As long as you're connected to this this network, the cool thing is with bittorrent that you're download speeds depend upon your participation within the network right you get a rank based on how many files you are allowing the system to upload rhyme you and anger and your actual upload speed as well so those two things factor in so if you are being. ALTRUISTIC and you're sharing lot. Then you can also download faster right because your rank goes up and that means that you're download speeds improve, and so you don't have to wait eight hours to get. That music file you wanted to get. It will download and no matter of minutes maybe or or Faster to think of on your broadband speed, and the speed of course of the various computers are hosting pieces of that file, but it does mean that you go much faster than you would. With your traditional appear client server relationship kind of up protocol. You end up getting the pieces of the file you need, and then once you've got all the pieces you've. You're good to go, so you don't have to depend upon one computer and its connection to the network. You're depending upon the entire network. And anyone who has. Pieces of that particular file now like we said there's nothing illegal about this. This is just a distribution network, so if you're file that you're distributing doesn't have any sort of copyright to it, or if it's licensed under something like creative Commons that gives the person who has the file, the the ability to distribute it. However, they lightly right then. There's no issue there. That's completely legal, and in fact I might even be the intent of that content. Sharing of the person who made it may be. I want this to be shared with as many people as possible. That's why I uploaded it to the bittorrent network. However. It does also mean that it can create an environment that allows for illegal sharing in a way that. Is a lot more difficult to fight than the client server approach right right because it's not located in a single place you can't go knock on one particular person and say you're holding this file because it's spread out over so many people that. It's a lot harder to trace back. I can't go into Lawrence Coffee Shop and tell her that she has to stop serving this one type of coffee. If everyone around her is serving that same type of copy, it doesn't do any good right. Right same sort of thing. Yeah, so this is the know although I mean. You can make some arguments that even even the illegal portions of torrent are beneficial in a way because you know first of all, it's made the industry. Create its own legal. Ways of distributing files. The faster you know, I think that the direct streaming on Netflix Amazon instant all that kind of stuff is a direct response. I agree to targeting. Also means that you know encouraging the the studios to find new ways to get content to to people who who want. To by it. They're eager to participate in this. If you make it easy enough, and you don't price gouge, then you. You're not really inspiring piracy. There's also been several surveys. Of varying reliability that have suggested that people who pirate stuff also tend to be some of the heavy like experience. which you know, people who are renting are probably more likely to buy things online than your average consumer, anyway because they're more computer internet savvy, Reagan with, but but you know, but the number that gets tossed around a lot is from a study by the American assembly which is connected to Columbia University, so it's more or less on the up and up this is. This is fairly reputable. Institution they at least call themselves nonpartisan. They do they do have a little bit of a liberal slant I would say but but they found that peer to peer file. Sharing users purchase thirty percent more music online than non pure here. And then, of course, there's also the argument that a lot of these organizations make the EMPA- our I aa that stolen property directly translates to lost revenue, and we've seen multiple studies including studies that were specifically. Funded by the government, you know the government agencies that looked into this to see how much how how much in damages really is caused by piracy, and the conclusion is that you cannot come up with a number because you cannot say for certain that someone who pirates something would have purchased that something had they not had access to the piracy software, and furthermore that they're not going. Going to go out and purchase it afterwards that they weren't trying before they bought it right so in both cases you don't know if they went out and bought it anyway, and you don't know if they would have bought it so without knowing those two factors. You can't say that this actually cost anybody any. No, it's not like a physical copy of something where if i? I walk into a store and a shoplift. That store is out a physical piece of inventory. When you download a digital file, you're making a copy of something. The regional version of that file is still on a person's computer somewhere else, so it's not like they have lost so with all of these factors it really means it's so complicated that we cannot put an actual dollar amount. Amount not that has stopped anyone from doing so when creating massive lawsuits against either a company that creates the software or the users of that software absolutely, and we will talk a little bit about that in a future episode. Joy here probably in just a couple of days because I think we're recording. Get immediately after we finish this one. Yes, we're talking about a specific rate. My favorite unofficial studied by the way is an anecdote on the effects of purchasing and free downloads was when Neil Gaiman his publisher. Which I believe in this case is Harper Collins put up a copy of American gods for free. Wow, and just just free book download go, do it. People and I don't think it's up anymore I might you might not be able to find it I could have just lied to you. but they had they had a free copy up. For a certain period of time and sales increased definitely increased like appreciably increased in the immediate future after it was up. I will say that there. I've told the story several times in the past, so I mean I'm comfortable telling it again. the the I definitely was one of the people who downloaded something outside the realm. Realm of the law because I downloaded a television show that was in England that was not available in the United States. There was no way for me to purchase it legally. Not that that justifies illegal behavior. It doesn't so I'm still in the wrong. You know I'm still in the wrong it but I downloaded spaced the show that egg, right and Simon Pegg, and several other people did. I loved it, but you know there was no way for me to legally get it in the United States at that time. As soon as it became available as the day that it came out on DVD, you went and partly. Because I loved it. I wanted to support it and I wanted to have a really good copy of it. That's another reason that things that like. The studio backed. Stuff is is getting more popular because the quality tends to be better. Oh, share, and you don't have to worry about like. Now in the packages, usually unless the D. Ram is also malware Sony I'm looking at you. Much better recently by the way. The! That CD thing still sticks in my craw. I think even classically though I. Mean you know this conversation is reminding me of? How you used to go to nerd conventions, and they would have all of these illegal Hong Kong vhs tapes of various Chinese go and he's fouled. Royal that way, but soon as it came available to. And I think that similarly that really kind of underground black market VHS sort of thing, aside from inciting nostalgia and people of a certain age really pushed movie companies to say Oh. Hey, there's there's a reason like there's reason I publish this right in America or in countries outside of their original origin, people love this. There is a market for we. Can you know if we provide it and we price it properly? We will make money like that's. That's the lesson that a lot of these companies have learned. And people can argue that know these are things that various industries have had to learn. In a staggered of so like the music industry learned it first and now the the. Industry also because with the with Eva books that definitely raised them, but it's broadband speeds have improved for the common user movies initiative so so it's interesting. I mean again you know. bittorrent is just a means of distribution. You don't necessarily have to have it. Be something where you're pirating movies and TV. There is a little bit of a fight back. As of April twenty thirteen McAfee had patented a system that identifies pirated content and can prevent users from downloading it by. Either blocking it entirely depending on how you set up the software, it's through set advisors depending on how you set up site advisor, it would either block the software entirely. Block. Download entirely I'm sorry or just give you a little pop up window. That says hey. It looks like you're trying to use a torrent file that is targeting illegally copied material. Dea really want to do that. Maybe here's some legal alternatives that you could use to download that that on the up and up. And that wraps up this classic episode of Tax Stuff How bittorrent works hope you guys enjoyed it. If you have any suggestions for future topics, I should cover on the show. Reach out to me on twitter or facebook, the handle for both of those tax stuff. H. S. W.. Talk to you again really soon. Stuff, is an iheartradio production for more podcasts from iheartradio visit, the iheartradio, APP apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Computer Talk 7/20/19 Hr 1
"This is computer talk with damn hosted by Eric Symbol of ten computer system interact with Eric Ed his guest by phone at five to two W._T._i.. One eight hundred nine six six W._t._i.. See them in the studio at get help a tabby dot car get help anytime a computer talk with TAB DOT COM now. Here's Eric and good morning. This is computer chocolate tab. I'm Eric and I'm Bob in Baba's Bob sure he wanted. M._C._S.'s tab comes in and helps osmium with your computer problems. Comments questioning concerns feel free to get online now. I know you're not outside because everyone in the news media has told you that it's hot you know like when it's cold. They tell you your your skin's GONNA freeze in four seconds here. If you go outside you're just GONNA die. This is pretty much. The news is that all morning today and for the past few days so we're all GonNa die so you're all cuddled up around your your computer with your air conditioning blasting your fans going eight degrees seventy eight degrees ED <hes> so I'm GonNA probably predict you're not going to die <hes> but feel free to get online eight hundred nine six six W._t._i.. Five to two deputy I see if you have a computer problem or questioner concern. We're here to help you out and if you go outside hydrate I drink water her. We'll be part of the solution to make sure your hydrate just get high tech water right vitamin water so but you gotTa store you WanNa start out with right yeah face APP yeah the face APP that everyone's talking it could face F._B._I.. The I. F._T._C. investigations over security concerns Senator Chuck Schumer and the Democratic National Committee say that Russia is involved in a problem are you is a problem of course Russians are coming. The Russians are coming now the thing about this face this APP. Everyone was so excited to see how old they were GonNa look if they started with their face and they put it in there and they would show you what you've looked like in thirty or forty or however many years and it was so cute and cuddly right Bob Myself I saw the people on the today show having so much fun with it. I'm thinking and guys it is in Russian APP. What are you doing? I'm a little bit more negative about it than you are. First of all negative about it. There's the ULA but second of all what it doesn't take into account of all the pictures that I've seen and I'm not putting mine in there all the pictures. I've seen all of these people that they did this age progression using A._I.. Right but it didn't take into account how many people actually gain weight as they get older so their face gets a little thicker and a little more round and you know so you don't even think on top of the being a security problem union to think it's correct. That's correct <hes> okay. I don't think it's a smart as some people think it is. Oh Yeah it's pretty cutesy. Well you know they've had for years where you could turn people in the cartoons while yes of course chorus but the thing is Bob. I agree with you completely. I mean it's I was watching the today. Show dealings talking about how great this APP was having all they're fun. I'm like you literally are putting your face on a Russian APP giving them your information. We ought to do this with Google and facebook. Of course we're not worried about those guys but this is a Russian company and they actually say they can keep all the data so if you're looking for you know to to give Russia what you're GonNa look like between now and when you're older put your face on this step stuff but the point is these these news companies don't not even have the producers even look to see who put this out it is no risk involved in and they don't take a second. I mean these very smart news agencies and put that in quotes are don't even look and now all of a sudden they reporting. Hey this is probably a privacy problem will yeah ah well. Let's the same companies kind of report opinions as news. That's true anyway. The Democratic I'm jumped ahead of course Democratic National Committee sent to security alert to the twenty twenty presidential campaigns on Wednesday Wednesday urging them not to you. Nobody should be using the APP well. You know we got a lot of very you know like the best in the brightness running for president this year so and period guys don't use this APP. It's and this is the moral the story number one if the news is talking about it assume they'd haven't done anything to figure out whether vetted at all right they have these guys. Don't that anything all right. They'll just just regurgitate. Most likely this this I was shown on and some one tech blog. The Russians probably wrote a little story themselves. put it out an tech blog and somebody picked it up and then instantly becomes news because most journalists don't write anything that has had the the other folks right at four them and it is they just spread it around Melissa Amazing Amazing when you listen to the news on every channel they're repeating the news almost word for exactly the same writer I mean yeah. It's all plagiarism but the point is you guys shouldn't be following with these guys say you should always look to see the first thing you should do go figure out where are these. After coming from there are so many free games on your phones. There's so many things on your phones right now. That are probably phoning home to people you would not be happy to know have this information about you. They probably have location information. They probably can turn your microphone on. They can probably turn your cameron. They can just take take your data. This APP under the ULA says it's entitled to all the data. That's on your phone forever so come on guys. Don't put this junk on your on your what about your banking information. You can't make it up so <hes> don't use that face APP and this pay attention obviously so in other news are still Revolutionary Connecticut. We are governor has put together. Something called the Connecticut Five Reggie Council and it was lauded that you know we're GonNa make sure we grease skids and get five. G. Implemented here in Connecticut. We're going to be a high tech company Czar High Tech State and get things moving quicker with this five jai council attack on going to be. I don't even go. They're gonna go to that level yet because I have no idea but everyone so excited that the governor's decided to figure out how we can cite these five G. Antennas on state property. This has nothing to do with any other property just state property so how'd you deal at half the state. How do you deal with the bureaucrats government amount and saying we want to make sure we can get this stuff going quickly and we'll we'll? We'll get this council together for for you so I was excited to hear Jeez. I'm sure you know this council on five G. is going to be you know chock full of Connecticut's best and brightest right the engineers of Connecticut the I._T.. Guys of Connecticut the business leaders of Connecticut so they can go until the bureaucrats that we need to get this done quickly right. You'd think that's the kind of council or can be done. Quick all right. When you want to know how could be done because I mean I was on the Board of Water Commissioners in Southington? I'm I'm I'm an amateur when it comes to putting in waterpipes what do I know we had to consult who engineers pay studies figure this stuff out. 'cause dealings like me didn't know how to put a water system in so. I assume that this council is going to be chock-full right of I._T.. Guys engineers and business leaders were going to tell the bureaucrats. That's where their problems are right well. Let's see what he thinks on the commission well. He's GONNA appoint. An office is going to appoint one employee of the Office of the governor a bureaucrat all right. That's the first guy yeah he's GonNa put on or Gal. He's going to put the University of Connecticut President on their well. University of Connecticut can't even run their athletic program there forty million dollars in debt this past year but I'm sure it's going to be very good. We're going to get everything done. It's raised tuition. Yeah no big deal students could afford the president of the Connecticut State's colleges and universities. This is an organization that can't even figure if they want to consolidate yes all right so you got three bureaucrats on the committee for I five G. Technology. Let's see who else is on there the secretary of the Office of policy and management another bureaucrat a lovely how about this the commissioner of administrative services what the heck did they have any idea about five G. and a commissioner generally is appointed political officer who was sitting in the legislature just a couple of days ago right. I mean I know who this person is but generally commissioners are politicians another commissioner of transportation. Oh great a commissioner of Energy Environmental House is on there as well. What's transportation got to do with the five G. Kick so this entire five? G. Council is made up a bureaucrats now one I._T.. Person among them now one engineer among them purely bureaucrats. We've got people in this state who sent people to the moon fifty years ago. It couldn't put one engineer on this thing to say. Hey you know just so you can tell these guys how the sausage is made. Its its mind boggling. If you think about just how badly we deal with getting broadband Internet had out here where we can't even designate a foot of of room on our telephone poles to allow for you know fiber to run through there. Even though it's a legislative it's even though it's legislation you got folks like pure saying sorry we can't let you do that and and believe it or not. Pure would have made some sense to be on this even ex-officio but they're not even on here because they have some experience with this. That'd be crazy. Talk in but you gotta understand. I believe firmly that in politics ignorance is bliss there. It is so oh this council on five G. is made up of a bunch of bureaucrats and you know the the old saying right those that can do those that can't our politicians and bureaucrats and that's what we've got here but what do other states do bob well. I got a thing from a fierce wireless talks about about twenty two states or actually implementing statewide regulations <hes> that's an idea that limits government fees in speeds review periods so. So these states have figured out that you need to limit government to implement five G. and they're gonNA. They're gonNA say the maximum amount of cost you can charge the five G. carriers as twenty five bucks per year for the use of the right away and sixty five bucks per year to attach it tach their antenna to a poll so they're actually putting limits on government. Thank goodness and of course they say that you need to either approve disapprove the small cell attachments within sixty days so so these states are saying we want to really expedite five implementations here in Connecticut make up a council bureaucrats and this is only has to do with dealing with citing on state property and these guys don't have a clue as to how g he works whereas other states or saying statewide. Here's how we get this done. We're still revolutionary hearing you can't make it up. I was so excited to see who was going to be on this council with such great engineers in Connecticut great scientists. I mean university university. Can I get the president. Maybe maybe the computer science teacher professor should be on it but not the president. It doesn't make any sense to me at all. I mean that's probably why they did it but five G. Hair comes connecticut uncaring. I guess all right. We're going to be here so I couldn't believe it. I had to talk about it today. We're going to be it's eleven o'clock. Feel free to get online one line open for you eight hundred nine six six W._t._i.. To to W._N._Y._C. You're GonNa die if you go outside according into the Weatherman so stay inside with your your computer cuddle up that you're going to drink lots of water. Stay hydrated and give us a call. We'll be right back go back. This is computer chocolate tabby two lines open for you eight hundred nine six six WTI I see fights to deputy IC- and just looking forward to that councilman making things so great for the rest of out here with five G. you make it up. It's going to Tony in South Windsor First Morning Tony Good Morning. It's people we have a question. I have a comment. I don't know if it's just me but do you notice that almost every July and August it gets hot what I've noticed that Tony isn't that crazy. I don't know maybe we do a story on that. Yeah summer's back almost the same way with with turning the clocks back and forth every air every twice a year that happens it's like it's the end of the world has stories about. You'RE GONNA fall asleep or we have climate change twice. A year. Exactly it's called winter and summer and the transition is spring and fall. It's crazy talk. I don't know Tony so what's going on with you sir. Here's my question yeah. I I listen every every week but it's often on 'cause. I'm usually in and out of the car but this morning I decided I'm GonNa stay on because I've been curious about this question okay. I hear you talk a lot about <hes> Open D._N._S. and I was just wondering one question what is the distinction or difference or advantage of Open D._n._S. Curses G._P._S.. Can you do both and why would you if you did so. The distinction is open. D._N._S. is a <hes>. Let's let's put it more simply. It's it's the information superhighway so just think of Al Gore and you're going to have your own little H._o._V. Lane on the information superhighway that does not have off-ramps ramps too bad neighborhoods. That's Open D._N._A.. That's Open D._N._A.. So you're more safe on the Internet because Open D._N._S. is not going to let you go to malicious sites that are going to bring bad stuff to your to your computer end. If you can figure it you can also oh block types of sites like if you have children in your home and you want to block the pornography if you've got <hes> if you've got somebody with a gambling addiction you can turn off gambling sites. You can do all sorts of things where you can actually control what is being shown on computer. It's a filtration system <hes> or just simply more safe highway and you can also customize it also so for instance. Let's say you shut off gambling right but you want to allow the Connecticut Lottery. You wait list that right so that sort take it can be very customizable but generally if you just WanNa keep it going in general without any other customisation. It's a safer way to surf a V._p._N.. Is You're going to actually connect to the Internet and actually pop out somewhere where were the server is located. Let's say in in Saskatchewan or wherever wherever you choose it maybe it's in Peru who knows and now you're browsing or China Lesser Problem If V._P._N.. Is owned by Chinese company which a big chunk of them are you're GONNA be watched by China but you're gonNA pop out on a server somewhere else rather than so think of it like a a wormhole or gopher hole where you're you're actually surfing somewhere else but the V._p._n.. Encryption data correct so that somebody okay who might be doing a packet capture and and reading what you're what you're sending they can't because it's encrypted through V._p._n.. Until it gets to you on their end of the tunnel exactly so the point with V._p._N.. Is If you're in a public place like a hotel hotel or if you're in a coffee shop and for whatever reason you're doing your banking or something. You want to keep more secure if you do a V._p._N.. The chances of anybody in that same coffeeshops sniffing out your information goes away because they can't. It's encrypted opted so I mean the coffee shop and I have opened D._N._S.. On my that's great you're going to be more safe on their network but the bad guy in the seat behind you can still sniff out what you're doing okay so so when you're on a public network of any kind in the airport in the in a stadium anywhere it's a public network there could be plenty of people that have tools on their computers that are sniffing out what Tom from Tony from South Windsor is running on his computer and their goal is to try to capture that information so that they can then log in his you because you were doing things on the interview decide to log into your bank right at the airport. Yeah you're dangling. I I don't do that. I don't Think D._N._S. now if I add the to <hes> as I understand I add that to you are else for for Open D._N._S.. Addresses yes I._P.. Addresses yes <hes> do I do that in addition to the ones that are already on there are status instead of the ones that are on their now are from your Internet provider right so you're instead of using their I._p.. Addresses you'RE GONNA Use Open D._N._S.'s I._p.. Addresses which are going and delete. There's yeah you WANNA put in an <hes> an item. It uses a specific. You'RE GONNA choose it and I would recommend you. Go One step further and when you go to Open D._N._S. website create a free a free account and then you can download this I._p.. Update or that they they have right and so that you'll always be protected and with the account you can customize it right the I._P.. Update is going to change your settings based on the fact that your Internet providers GonNa give you a new I._p.. Address so have you have custom settings without that I._p.. Update or they wouldn't be able to be applied. So how does this Open D._N._S.. Provider <hes> make any money or or <hes>. The company is Cisco so they're doing fine. Good good company good stock exactly so they opened was a different was their own company before Cisco purchase them now. Maybe four years ago <hes> so again in this case. There is some level of marketing going on here where that we're I._T.. People looking at their solution as a solution for professional solutions versus the home <hes> but that's why they don't the home the difference is the home account gives you one I._p.. Address at a time right okay and follows. You and it's free but if you're in business than the businesses pay for business account so that's where they're funding comes in basically the businesses are subsidizing. The free home accounts right and it's good marketing because it gets the name out. It's a great tool. I mean we recommended it for a long time. Now and we had called people are calling us even when we were recommending <hes> <hes> the blue coat stuff way back when canine people are saying hey he was opened the N._S.. And we really we looked at it but we never really paid too much attention to it but <hes> turns out. It's much better solution than than it was yeah. I don't intend to do this but I'm just curious with. Could you do both over D._N._S. V._P._N.. Of course the Open D._N._S. is going to give you a safer Internet experience of the moment you use v._p._N.. Tunnel you're popping out and the other servers using their then. You're going to get their D._N._S.. If it's configure properly because if you use your local D._N._S. the idea of the security and privacy are looking for kind of goes away. What was the percentage of <hes> <hes> v._p._N.? Providers that are from China. I want to say it was a good chunk so be careful with a V._p._n.. Services use yeah if they're Chinese companies. You don't WanNA use their software all right Tony all right thank you don't have. I'm glad I stayed in listen to this. We're glad you did to all right. Thanks bye bye bye. Maybe it's eleven o'clock guys feel free to get online. We have three lines open for you. Feel free to get online eight hundred nine six six W._t._i.. Five to two W._N._Y._C. we'll be right back after the news we are back. This is computer chocolate tab. We are here live. He made it through the heat. We made it through the Hugh Muggy as it's been called on. I was listening to <hes> Washing Nessin. I think watching the socks and somebody's called Hugh Muggy. We made it through we survived. It is July in Connecticut. <HES> <HES> we're here to help you out with your computer comments questions and concerns and all the lines are all jammed up so you're right to your calls. You're nice enough to join us on this Saturday morning. We're GONNA go to our resident groupie. Danny in Glastonbury hate any hey happy <hes> fiftieth the anniversary of this holy day great great day fifty years ago ended on the Moon I did did you see me on T._v.. When you watch them come down off the ladder? I was right on the other side of the landing leg assistant. Let him you couldn't see medicine the shadows. It's good that you were there that <hes> warehouse in Houston actually I was. I was <hes> I would be the term of chemically enhanced. Her rocket fueled that I was was actually they're talking about daddy but I got a trying to Hartford Hospital Cardiac Cath lab because I'm going to have surgery yeah and when I went to I I went to chrome wrong and I just typed it in and when I clicked on it I got the the webpage and stuff and when I clicked on the little icon for the website I get this thing that says <hes> I up the top H._T._T._p._S. is in readiness got two lines through it with a little thing and you know it says and then I got a big exclamation Red Triangle says you connections not private attack is might be trying to get your information passwords credit cards pup O'Brien so naturally. I didn't go any further right net error shirt common name invalid right so this happened to us last Saturday. <hes> are <hes> are certificate on Computer Talk With Tab Dot Com expired are dealing web host every every year they do this to us. We don't know why can't seem to get it right but they do. <hes> often screw that up and what happens is chrome throws a hissy fit and says hey. This isn't a secure browser and the secure browser it costs literally nearly one hundred bucks a year. It's not expensive item <hes> to add a certificate that says you are who you say you are. However just you understand the bad guys do this too so in the case of the hospital they let their certificate expire but if I wanted to create a website the site that looked extra safe for you and felt like Citibank or felt like wherever certificates expired well I would buy a certificate for my fake Citibank <hes> site right so you can't assume just because it's an H._T._T._p._S. C._B._S.? Site anyways that it's the one you WanNa go to just to add a little more complexity to your lives <hes> but all that means is when you do go online and enter any data. It's encrypted all right. That's all it means. You're safe to go ahead to that cardiac site because they just let their certificate expires so if I were criminal and I wanted to imitate let's say Citibank right. I could look for domain that wasn't taken. Let's say Citibank C._T.. Dot Com and they'll close coffee you know there and then it would look like it's a legitimate and then get a certificate for it right and if I can get you to log in and give me your credentials as efficient campaign exactly now making any money bank information so am I little investment pays me back in and spins. I should notify them about or do you think they must they know about it must be getting us right. Certificate expired in their web host the exact same thing to them that our web hosted they consolidated all their cardiologists and stuff on the one group and like you can't get through on the phones because they only have one phone number now and all the websites screwed up and like I lost my little my chart where I have the the portal to my different doctors three of those disappeared now. I have one other question I actually last week about after eleven o'clock like my tablet slows down well I did <hes> net speed infinity speed test last night and I had was after eleven o'clock again I had downloaded at three point four point six for upload but when I went to my settings and I looked at my connection to my <hes> my <hes> router I had one megabit yes so somehow other after eleven o'clock the router older speeds I mean 'cause sometimes it'll be a hundred and fifty four eighty nine. You know it's always good all day long and I checked it just before eleven o'clock at ten o'clock and I had eighty nine. That's something wrong with you. router or your tablet check. You have to check your other other devices to see if they have a similar speed to rule out your tablet having the problem I mean it's not like anybody's tapped into my mind. Bitcoin is something just eleven o'clock or anything over the years. I figured out your Password Yeah. No it's probably your tablet double. Check another wireless device to see if as the same result if it does then it's your router if it doesn't enter tablet and resetting the router. Maybe straighten out not if it's your tablet router though Yes yes okay so my I'll check with tonight with my wife's <hes> yeah tablet and if you get the same result it's your router. If it's a different result you reset your talent all right Dan Glickman all right so he's got some stuff going on so yes if you we know the site is a site. That's safe site. You can go ahead and continue on Google is GonNa Freak Out chromos GONNA freak out and say hey. This is not a secure site. It used to be but their certificate has expired passage your own risk. <hes> happens very often <hes> when these certificates expire. Let's go onto Paul in Middlebury. Hey Paul Hi good morning morning. <hes> yeah <hes> so I think I've I I listened your show. I don't understand halfway talking about but it's a fun show. Listen to thanks. I got home one day and I couldn't get a jumble where it so I would into Google and I went into jumble salver and this pop up came up that I've been hacked and I need to call this phone number right. That's assistance scam and there's I try to fifteen minutes to exit out wouldn't go away so I called the phone Paul. You didn't call the phone number. What go oh <music>? Hi said he was a Microsoft technician. These not guy sitting in some hut in the middle of the Third World Yeah. He had an accent so after-tax center not that's where he was right. Listen I gotta go he so he typed online that he wanted me to spend one hundred dollars to do this and seventy five dollars that will be secure and that I didn't have a good <hes> antivirus. I needed his antivirus. I told them I did have an antivirus and I said listen. I talk to my brother-in-law he was computer wiz. He'll help me figure this out or I'm gonNA bring computers to staples where I bought Auden have them fix it on chuck it and buy new computer with the new right with Paul. Nothing was wrong with your computer. So I hung up. Good guy was very insistent. Of course he's got. He's got a live. One on the phone actually made the phone call you're alive. You're close to spend yeah so I finally hung up on him because he wouldn't pay up. I might computer came back of course is was nothing wrong with the ball. It's a it's a pop up and it's been fine since I do. I have anything to worry about not as long as you didn't let him in as long as you didn't have him on your computer I did let oh so. Do I gotta run a scan. Yeah you gotTa Arena scale like Bob said you need to run our bites <hes> to see if he loaded anything on your computer while he was poking around you have no idea if he took anything so if you have any important data on your machine I mean who knows what he was doing on your system. Imagine if I came to your the home it'll be taken off your machine. He could be knocked on your door and said Hey Paul. You know what I there's a problem with your gas or the Hey. There's a problem with your water. Can you let me in. That's what happens all the time just in our neighborhoods. Would you let me in no okay now. I had a little thing that I faked on my on my neck that said I'm from the water company. Would you let me in. Maybe don't do that. Oh you call the water company <hes> you. This is what they're doing is exactly Ashley what they did on the computer right the computer made. It looked like it was Microsoft calling saying Hey Paul. You've got a problem if I fake a little name tag from the water. You know how hard that would be. It's not hard. You're GonNa let the bad guy walking. Your door happens all the time. Don't let these people in your house. Don't let them in your computer ever happened before <hes> but I was so aggravated. I wanted to get this fixed so right <hes> <hes> but last night when it was on the computer when I did go into into finally jumble Salvador on Google so I thought that's safe so here's the problem with a jumble sauber any kind of website that does this stuff for you. These bad guys put these little pop up scenarios. Scenarios on these web sites that you're going to so when you Google Jumbos Jumble Sauber who knows what site you're going to write when you're going in and Google it's like it's like opening the yellow pages and putting your finger on the yellow pages and saying okay. I'M GONNA go get a sandwich but it's a tattoo parlor right now. It's not necessarily where you think you're going. What's real and what's Click Bay exactly so all they did was they solved your jumbo jumble and Feld you? They didn't even work they settled. It's a survey right Paul for cheating yeah. It's all comes back down to that. Let me give you a tip. If that happens again. You were not able to close that window. That says you know you've been hacked to pop so what I what I want you to do. If if that happens again is hit control to elite and Click on task manager in task manager Click on your browsers and close them. Oh Yeah Okay all right Paul and what you want to do is go talk to your you said brother-in-law who was a computer was having skiing are computer for you. We have to be careful because who knows if those guys loaded anything on your machine and anybody listening out there whether it has to do with the example of my lot knocking on your front door or some dangling putting thing on your computer saying call me don't fall for it. I don't do anything I mean. I don't know what he banking. I do nothing all right. I'm afraid of this happening. I don't buy anything online all right so you're the guy probably has nothing then as far as any sign of data last night computer <hes> my antivirus once a month it pops up says you're viruses safe. You Computer Safety so hers is you're ready to go so I see that once a month so I just X. Out of it I keep going so I guess I'm okay. I'll scan it with our bites for free so we're GONNA link Mauer Bites on our on our website so you should go to computer talk with Tab Dot Com right and find a link and run the freemen were bites just to be sure to see if the guy loaded anything in the background on your machine while he was poking around in your system okay all right all right and no more cheating see when it gets you figure out your jumble your own self for crying out loud right all right all right well the all right guys. We're going to set out for a quick break three lines open for you eight hundred nine six W._t._i.. Five to two W._T._i.. See we'll be right back and we are back. This is computer chocolate doc with we have three lines open for you. We're going to be here till eleven so if you're GONNA get online eight hundred nine six six W._t._c. five to two W._T._i.. See their weather men have scared you from being outside today so the only place to be is in the air conditioning cuddled up with your computer and we'll do our best to help you out with your computer problems comments questions and concerns and you know so feel free to get online. Let's go right to your calls. You get Keith in your Britain next hi good morning what's going on great. Show guys great show <hes> the question. I've got a windows seven <hes> desktop that <hes> can reboot in safe mode. There's an issue with the memory check so I I ran the memory the memory check and it comes out and <hes> bite one five seven six six five you get a bed stick. You got a bed stick around. Oh so if you open so you'd probably have I'm hoping hoping you have multiple sticks of Ram in your motherboard right on your computer these little sticks of Ram. How much ram do you have Keith or probably only have wind Bradley? You need to buy new Ram and I double it well before you do that though make sure it's compatible. There's that but howls. How was this machine Keith? It's running windows seven thousand nine. Oh you boof. You have my permission to get a new machine so don't buy don't don't buy anymore. Ram Don't spend any more time window. Seven is not going to get updated as January one January fourteenth exact you would recommend a recovery disc recovery is not gonNA help you get a bad stick around hardware. It's a harbor problem. Actually telling you got a bad chunk of memory and then that's Dick as bad so we're assuming you've got one four GIG. Stick inside your motherboard if you've got to five gigs forget to two gigs sticks which are kind of weird rare for ten years ago they probably they were doing yeah. There can have you could try an A._B.. Swap were you pull one of the sticks out reboot if it comes up clean because it's only one stick that's bad but if you only have one stick around you're done and then you know it's ten years old. Yeah come do yourself. A favor got all my data. That's okay can transfer yeah. You can take your hard drive out of that computer physically and you can buy an enclosure and make it a U._S._B.. Drive or you can stick it in a new computer and not even after transfer it just sit there as a dry D if you want. It's going to be sitting there with an operating system but it won't boot and you go over to the data areas of that drive and you haven't all they're put it in a U._S._B.. Enclosure or get a U._S._B.. Adapter for very simple stuff wow yeah you don't have to you. Don't feel feel like you're locked into this machine. Just because you're date is on there. It's ten years old. It served you well end. You're not going to get a security update as January so there's no I would never tell you to spend it in another penny on this thing okay. You've got your money's worth food and just look for a new replacement now when you're out there looking for new computers a three hundred dollar computer is not the same as a thousand dollar computer even if they both say I five understand that the innards of those machines will be different. They'll either be better. Her better processor multiple cores different generation <hes> I can tell you how often we have to talk to folks about explaining why three hundred dollar computer is not a thousand dollar computer at a discount <hes> so you probably spent at least a grand on this machine ten in years ago you you you spent wisely because it lasted you a long time. Do the same thing in this next machine will give you as as long a lifespan should look for <hes> ice is high five eighth Jen or ninth Jennifer you can find minded but we find ourselves either eight gaze of Ram or more aac eggs Iran and either a solid state drive <hes> or a hybrid drive and then you can use your old drive as data spot to where you stickier Muse pop in your machine illicit there so you're okay so I should feel safe. <hes> thinking that there is an extra slot for this <hes> most computers are will be drives probably three and a half inch I._D.. Or say to drive probably the size of grilled cheese sandwich and you'RE GONNA put it in your computer if there's a slot if there's a space open if you buy a real slimline case you might find that there isn't as lower if you get a laptop forget it and you won't if it's a laptop. It has to be external then twenty five dollars to get an adapter to adapt it to you E._S._p._N.. Copier data over very hetero save a lot of time to be adapter converted to in this copy your data over and then you can retire the old hardback too. It's GONNA fail. It's ten years old right. Okay all right. Why would I was hoping that it was a repairable situation but it's not probably not with that failure on the actual specific spot on the memory checker at telling us bad stick around yeah? I ran multiple times in it. It stopped in the same spot each for what it is. It's not worth putting more money into it <hes> so <hes> windows ten when is a good operating system windows ten is the only operating system you can choose. I won't use the ball good. Necessarily it's got its problems but it's the only operating system. If you want to stay in the Microsoft world. If you want to choose the apple world you could choose as an apple system now. Thank you all right. Okay well great guys. <hes> keep up the good work. I'll I'll do as you recommend good luck. Thank you all right. Let's go onto Robin Westfield Man to hold you over rob. What's up? You have uh-huh yeah you talking about five G. and New York Times just posted an article feel the day about the kind of health risks that people are trying to say because the infrastructure has to be a five times more than four not because he doesn't travel as far so how boy how do you try to be through be between the lines of some of these studies World Health Organization saying yes you know we we have to do more studies on pack the Five G. and and <hes> rain cancer all these things so boy as I'm hearing a friends who are getting Wi fi blockers are shutting off Wifi when they go to bed. Where do you guys sand on these kinds of things when the healthiest Bob as a feeling? I have two things I can tell you okay. The first thing is it's the government spending more money for boards to do studies that will tell us nothing and the second thing is if you believe all that stuff you know just go out and get a role a tin foil and make a yeah. I mean when when cellphones came out they were telling you that you're GonNa get brain cancer from that so look I. I believe in making sure that whatever we're broadcasting is not going to kill you. Obviously obviously you don't want anything. That's the problem but we've got communities that are blocking it preemptively so you know what if that's the other ones reports of server in dying over birds die from windmills too.
Dr. David Katz: The Choreography of Contagion Interdiction
"It's not as if you're GONNA take some number of supplements in it's GonNa make you bulletproof. But the idea that diet makes no difference to immunity is absurd every day. Your body is replacing. White blood cells in the construction material comes from your nutrition and so whether or not those cell membranes are optimized whether or not you're able to replenish the productive capacity of your bone marrow absolutely dependent on every aspect of that. It's not just one nutrient yes. Sync is important. Vitamin DS. Horton all of that. But it's the full array of amino acids the full array of fatty acids balanced diet is the source of construction material for the replenishable portion of your immunity about antibodies. We talk about antibodies. Those are proteins. You have to build them. You need optimal guy to build optimal materials and then there's antioxidants that he role anti-oxidants is to defend your healthy cells. Your immune system is like an army is engaged in chemical warfare. There is the risk of collateral damage. And frankly one of the reasons people get so sick with code is the site of storm which is activation of the immune system to fight the virus doing damage to your healthy tissues balancing your immune response so it's not excessive but it's also adequate has a lot to do with balanced nutrition protecting your healthy cells as a to do with bounce attrition so enormously important and it's immediately actionable that's Dr David Katz. And this is the ritual podcast Role podcast. Hey everybody your host ritual checking in. This is my podcast. Grab a seat. Let's start by taking a deep breath. Philip our lungs expand your abdomen. Hold it just a little bit longer now. Xl How feel feels pretty. Damn good right. I hope all of you are being gentle with yourselves. This is indeed a challenging moment and the collective stress is heavy it affects all of us even subconsciously. I feel it. I'm sure you feel it as well. So perhaps consider lifting your foot off the gas bit taking it just a little bit slower and trying to love yourself a little bit more today. Today's show is another corona virus. Themed check in attempting to Glean a bit more Cova clarity amidst the confusion the current state of affairs and circling. This pandemic is in my opinion. At least a little bit of debacle of conflicting data and too many extremist views. There's a lot of black and white thinking out there and not a lot of nuance and it's hard to discern fact from fiction or separate opinion from data and politics from perspective. It's really hard. It's frustrating and I suspect like me. You'd prefer answers and well considered strategy over confusion and PUNDITRY and well. I can't tell you when this alternate reality which is quickly morphing into some kind of distorted normality. We'll see what I can offer you. Today is the experience and perception of one of the best and brightest in preventive medicine and public health. That my friends is the great. Dr David Katz. One of the leading voices functional. Lifestyle medicine a brilliant clinician and academic who recently returned from a stint volunteering on the frontlines of the corona virus outbreak at a hospital. Emergency Department in the Bronx as always plenty more thoughts to share about Dr Cats and the conversation to come but I brought to you today by a brand new sponsor. I'm super fired. Up to support Morton the sports hydration and nutrition company that's revolutionizing elite performance. Triathlon is actually four disciplines. Not Three their swim. There's bike there's run but there's also nutrition and that adage holds true no matter what kind of athlete you are dialing in your nutrition and hydration is crucial on Racer Game Day but even more important in enduring training because optimizing recovery day. 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Most of the stuff on the market is just way too sweet me and it just becomes unpalatable difficult to digest when you're out for hours and hours and hours and the biggest difference I've noticed using Morton is just how easy it goes down formulated with High Carb. Hydrogel that go easy on my stomach. It allows me to consume more carbs. Actually stay fueled for longer and this allows me to push harder. Go longer and recover better. So over time the result is expedited performance. So check it out right now in the. Us Morton is available from our friends at the feed. Go to the feed dot com slash rich to get ten percent off your order including Morton and free shipping. That's the feed dot com slash ritual for ten percent off plus free shipping. Rosser also brought to you today by Roka to anyone out there who wears glasses like myself. What's the most annoying thing about it? Is it the fact that they're super heavy? And Bulky is because all the cool ones aren't durable or is it because they slide off your Dang face every time you bend over while for the longest time my love for running and cycling and sweating And my desperate need for prescription glasses that allow me to wear them. While I'm doing these things have basically collided with each other but no more with Rocca. These bad boys will never slip or fall off your face. Ever I'm super serious about this. Every style has patented Gecko no slip technology on the temples and knows pieces that work no matter how much you sweat. They have withstood. The test of my bruiser days running in hundred degree heat and the Santa Monica Mountains and also made me look pretty cool doing it if I do say so myself. Rocca has a wide range of sunglasses and eyeglasses to choose from and a home triumph kit to help make the decision easier. All you gotTa do is pick your four favourite styles. How about that? Classic Jesse Thomas Aviator Brand. I like that one and they'll send them to your door. You get to try them out for a week choose your favorite syndicate back with prepaid shipping label and boom. That's it so. Stop choosing clarity over style and durability go to roka dot com forward slash ritual to get twenty percents off your order. That's our okay A. dot com forward slash ritual to get twenty percents off your order today and finally we are brought to you by squarespace in case you needed a sign. We'll here it is. It's time to update your website. You guys yes. This is the host of your favorite. Podcasts telling you that those graphics on your site are outdated people. It's twenty twenty that blogger page cobbled together in two thousand eight. It's not helping your cause with squarespace redesigning your site is easy. Their sleek templates and customizable features. Make it simple to craft a site that is an authentic reflection of you. Your brand or your business squarespace. Even as powerful marketing tools to help you reach and grow your audience from and social to email marketing with squarespace. Getting the word out has never been easier. And if you come across a problem the team at squarespace has got you covered. It's Kinda like having your own personal. It department create a website and get free unlimited hosting top of the line security and enterprise grade infrastructure. You can count on their customer care team to help you out with any problems. You come across twenty four seven. So what are you waiting for? Go to squarespace DOT COM for slash rich role and make sure to use the offer code rich role to get ten percent off your first purchase that squarespace.com slash ritual use the offer code rich role to get ten percent off your first purchase. Okay Dr David. Katz a graduate of Dartmouth the Albert Einstein College of Medicine and Yale School of Public Health. David is the founding director of Yale. University's Yale Griffin Prevention Research Center. He's a past president of the American College of lifestyle medicine and the founder and president of the True Health Initiative a nonprofit coalition of more than five hundred world renowned physicians scientists and nutrition experts including myself. Although I'm certain I'm the least qualified member of this coalition all committed to establishing and communicating a growing scientific consensus on the optimal diet for human beings and the planet. David is also a James Beard nominee in two thousand nineteen for health journalism. He's contributed countless articles to top medical journals along with op. Eds in the New York Times and somehow along the way found the time to write seventeen books including his latest how to eat which he co authored with a Great Mark. Pitman although David has been a prominent voice in nutrition science and lifestyle medicine for many years. This pandemic has suddenly foisted him into a very bright spotlight. You might have caught him a week and a half AGO ON REAL TIME WITH BILL. Maher or on CNN or Fox News. He's been making the major media outlet rounds of late advocating for a more data driven targeted public health response to Corona virus. A strategy he calls vertical interdiction which is the focus of today's conversation. A discourse on how we should be thinking about and navigating this unique global predicaments. I appreciate the work. This man is doing and his commitment to service. He's he's data driven. No nonsense also quite charming. So it's an honor to share his message with all of you today to anyone suffering from the virus or the effects of it my heart goes out to you. This pandemic is hurting us. All some in more catastrophic ways than others and I hope that Dr Katz is words. Bring you some comfort. He gets as close as he can to providing us with the answers. We are also desperately seeking so here we go. This is me and David Katz. Md M. P. H. F. ACP F. AC C. L. that's a mouthful enjoy. Well Nice to see you David. Welcome to the PODCAST. This is a long time coming. We have a bit of a history. We've actually never met in person but we've gone back and forth over the years and I feel very connected to you. I've wanted you to come on the show for many years. I think we've had some back and forth and I could never make it up to Connecticut to make that happen and I always imagined that our podcast would would be all about and lifestyle but here we are in a moment in which I'm seeking your wisdom and experience in an all altogether different matter specifically how we should be thinking about and individually and as a society to this cove nineteen pandemic but before we launch into that. Perhaps you could Provide us with a little bit of background on your work You've been a prominent voice in lifestyle medicine for many years but the pandemic has really placed you in the public spotlight in a very unique and different way. So I'm interested in how this has come to pass and how we arrived at this moments. That's a so am I. I'm asking every day rich. What is going on a week? Yeah well first of all. Thanks for the dry. Feel the same way. I feel like we've known one another for years in an in. It's always on when when you're working so overlapping and your ambitions are so aligned to discover. We haven't met in person. We just point it just becomes. That can't be true. Yeah yes it's true that's weird so it's great to join you and I would argue. Actually that what we always wanted to talk about diet lifestyle is medicine the value proposition there. how much good could be done by by getting that formula right and what we need to talk about in this moment with every body fixated on Kobe actually overlap tremendously and I actually think rich. That's why I'm where I am and I didn't choose a career focused on nutrition and lifestyle because I like food more than other people. I chose it because that's where the action was in the early going of microbes. I trained in internal medicine and during one hundred ten hours a week in the hospital for several years. It was painfully clear to me that Ada ten people in hospital beds never needed to get that sick in the first place and we were all the king's Horses Nala Kings met the best we were ever going to be able to patch them up but never make them whole never make them vital. Never unscramble the eggs and so I went on to train in preventive medicine to address that part and then I chose to focus on nutrition and lifestyle because it was becoming clear at the time that died in America was leading. Determinant of health outcomes by tally longevity years in life in years. That's why I chose an end. In fact what we realized in the year Census Diet is number. One single leading predictor. Variable for all cause mortality in the United States there was an op-ed in the New York Times August. Twenty six of two thousand nineteen by Darioush Motza Fahrian a Tux and Dan. Glickman former secretary of agriculture. Our food is killing too many of us. And that's the argument. They make number one predictor variable. So that's what I do. WanNa be where stuff's on fire and bring a bucket and try to help put it out and it's the very same inclination that got me. Caught up in Cohen response was looking at the data from all around the world in the very early going so out of John. Out of South Korea and people were starting to freak out over here. We weren't sure what was going to happen in the United States in some people were dismissing it. I thought that was wrong. Some people were getting hysterical. I thought that was wrong as it looks to me like essentially this is two very different diseases. There's a relatively small portion of population very elderly people and people with serious chronic illness. For whom this is a really bad actor and there's a large segment of the population ninety eight to ninety nine percent of everybody who gets this thing Who may not even know they've had it And you know South Korea's consistently reported out of more than ten thousand cases they detected ninety eight percent. Were relatively mild something close to that high nineties anyway. And and the the real burden of this so the likelihood of hospitalization I see you or death was massively concentrated among people who were elderly and or chronically. Ill same thing in Italy. Actually you know. We were all fixated on that terrible mortality. Tolan Italy but I think it was only two point one percent of all. The deaths occurred in people under age. Seventy and one point. Two percent of all deaths occurred in people who were free of major chronic disease. Most of the mortality toll was in older people with chronic disease. So I was looking at that and I said you know we're we're talking about Shutting Down Society. We're talking about Closing down businesses and as a public health person. I've always been very respectful of the social determinants of health. Poverty is a major determinant of health outcomes. Food Insecurity desperation destitution so I wrote an OP. Ed which the New York Times publishing They called. It is the cure worse than the disease. I call it something different. I was I was arguing basically for more surgical strike. This is not an equal opportunity skirts. Some people at high risk summer at low risk we should do different things for those two groups but it wound up being called as the cure worse than the disease and really the issue was this. This pandemic can hurt people at least two different ways it can hurt them by infecting them and it can hurt them if our interdiction methods ruin livelihoods and lives in both of those. Were bad what we ought to be striving for his total harm minimization where we minimize the harm of the infection and minimize the harm of the interdiction and that led me in the direction of what I call. Vertical or risk-based interdiction protect the people who most need protection. Let's not shutdown more than we need to shut down. I wrote my op. Ed and then Tom Friedman Three Time Pulitzer Prize winner longstanding columnist at the New York called me on a Saturday night literally out of the blue. My phone rings. It's a number from says that I don't recognize and I usually don't answer those calls but I said I just had a piece in the New York Times. Who knows what this is about. Let me check it. It's Tom Friedman and again. I mean I ran around the house basically saying in. Forgive me for speaking Holy Shit. You will recall Megan. Tom Friedman just called me out of the blue so tom said you really liked the perspective and he wanted to build his column around which he did and let's just say the rest is history so no. Tom Channel my thinking in a column he wrote which ran it up a really high flagpole and then all hell broke loose you know. I got calls from the governor of New York and the Governor of Florida. Legislators and testifying to the Senate and all the media parents of work and is it valid. Yes yes me about my background. So just briefly. I'm board certified in Preventive Medicine. Public Health formally trained in epidemiology have co-authored Multiple Editions of Leading Textbook on Epidemiology Preventive Medicine. Public Health biostatistics taught all of those courses at the l school of medicine for well over a decade. So you don't ordinarily I focus on diet lifestyle because that's most important but the training really is preventing disease promoting hells patterns in populations epidemiology and an understanding not just of disease epidemiology. 'cause I would defer to others there no more than I do. I'm not a Only out but I also know a lot about social determinants in how you know the way this reverberates through all aspects of society translates into public. Health matters of great importance. So I'm seeing the big picture in opining and here we are right so this op. Ed Piece published March Twentieth. I believe right and and if memory serves me there was a sort of ten day just station period from the date in which you originally wrote this Up until the date that it was actually published correct so I suspect you're writing this in the wake of hearing that the NBA has suspended. Its its season and Tom and Rita. Hanks have contracted the disease. This is you know at the very beginning stages of trying to grapple with how to deal with all of this also in a period in which every single day feels like a year in terms of how much change there is Clearly we've adopted what you would call a horizontal interdiction approach to all of this and your piece was really about Adopting a more surgical approach. And so where are we now? Here we are may fifth. A lot has changed. Has this has the evolution of our approach. And what you're camping and seeing right now change your perspective in that original op. Ed piece which we should also mention has become a little bit of a political flashpoint but yeah as everything to society so polarized. It doesn't really matter. How moderate or centrist. Your point of view is it gets stored in both directions so it's never liberal enough for people being left. It's never conservative enough for people extreme right. I mean no matter what your your Human Yada but yeah just as you say rich so I actually wrote it. Originally ten days before ran in the New York Times and at that time of the early stuff was happening. You know we heard about Tom. Hanks and his wife and all of that but we have not yet made the fateful decision to close down all of the universities in the country and send those kids home and I have five adult children and three of them were in that population demographic and I was thinking. You know what we're seeing in South Korea and increasingly in other countries is that young healthy people may have this not even know what. If that's going on in the college campuses so potentially GonNa take a lot of young people seemingly perfectly healthy who have asymmetric versions of of Kobe. We're going to send them home to their fifty something parents who if they're typical. Americans have at least one. Major Crime Disease Attention or type two diabetes or garnered sees and a multigenerational home. They may have their seventy something grandparents living near to. It really. Looks like it's potentially a bad disease in the parents. It looks like it's devastating disease. The grandparents maybe these kids are better off staying in college campuses. And let's just kind of wait and see what happens because you know. Maybe they all get over. It develop immunity to it. And that's when we send them home. We didn't do. Those were the thoughts I was having between the time I originally wrote this time. It ran the gauntlet to get published in the New York Times. We sent the kids home. We shut down businesses in in your city ahead. Three of my own kids come back home to shelter in place here that okay you know the the die is cast Laox s you know and I thought okay I I. It looks to me with the dithering delay here. We're probably GONNA CLOSE THE BARN doors after leading all the horses run loose and I kind of think that's what we did and we're still watching how that plays out In terms of my own perspective saw it. It's been informed obviously by the flow of data. Ever since I first opined but it was also very important to me not to sit this out on the sidelines and so when the call went out for volunteers in New York City I immediately signed up. It took a while to work through the bureaucracy but eventually got deployed in the Bronx. And I did several twelve hour shifts in emergency department in the Bronx so I got to see this up close and personal emitted case after case and Cogan but actually it reaffirmed so I saw young healthy people in the Er for other reasons who oh by the way probably had cova to and they got sent home and they were almost certainly going to be fine. I saw the occasional person in the middle where there's little dicey we hope they get better. They might get worse. Most of the docs I was working with had had it and recovered from it. Had been tested to quarantine then came back to work. Some of them did this instead. I'm pretty sure I had it. I didn't tell anybody just worked straight through it on the other hand. There was a bulletin board in the emergency room with a picture of beautiful woman with a lovely smile. Rest in peace. It was one of the nurses who had interacted this dine relatively young woman so again. The minute you stop respecting this disease it is going to kill somebody you love and I never lost of that but the patients that were most consistently being admitted and that were guest into the ICU. Or that died in the emergency room before we could admit them or were likely to die. In the hospital were mostly elderly. Sick people sent from nursing home and you know in the early going of my career. I worked for five years. Our time is in the dock and it was exactly the pattern. I saw then was one major difference so you always see ambulance after ambulance from nursing homes frail people on any given day am I strove euro sepsis all these different things. That happen. What was different was same demographic more or less the same volume but everybody had the same diagnosis. That's weird everybody had called it so you know no question. It was different by the I was serving in New York. It was already a little too late. My colleagues were saying we really needed you a week ago. And I I said I signed up right away. Took a while to get through the system but my my view actually remains the same as it was that get. New York's zero prevalence testing it. Looks like twenty percent of the State may have had this as four million people. So you know. The the death toll in New York relative to denominator four million is a tiny fraction of a percent highly concentrated in older chronically. Ill PEOPLE THAT. Pattern is being repeated around the world. The diamond princess really a contained environment only twenty percent of the people on the ship got infected. And by the way. That's the pattern we've seen repeated to. I don't know what it means rich. But I'm wondering are eighty percent of people natively resistant to getting this infection that we actually have data out of Germany out of Sweden out of Iran. The diamond princess the navy ships and some evidence that of California and New York seroprevalence says that suggests in population. That's widely exposed to this eight hundred ten people don't even get the infection and of those who get it most of them either don't know at all. I have no symptoms of mild symptoms. But on the other hand I have. I've looked the enemy in the eye. And it's terrible bizarre disease and I'm aware that it has killed young health professionals and so I always respected the potential of this infection to hurt people but you know with with a total mortality toll. Even this many months into it very close to seasonal flu in the United States in there. Really right in the same ballpark and thirty million people unemployed because of our society response to this. You know so. That's five hundred people who've lost their jobs every one person who who's lost their life to this both or bad so I continue to think we should shift now to risk based We need to protect nursing homes. We need to identify as artfully as we can all of those groups at elevated risk of severe infection and. I think we had a double down protecting them and this is what I hope. Some of our discussion will be about today. We all started. We we need a national. Let's get healthy now campaign. There's never been a better time to get people to care about their way to their insulin. Resistance their diabetes their heart disease because whereas those were slow motion threats before everybody is acutely concerned about Kobe. Kobe turned chronic health liabilities into the kind of cute threat. That tickles your adrenal gland. Activates the fight or flight response. We've got people's attention so we should identify risk. We should modify rhys. We should protect people at elevated risk. But I really do think a large segment of the population can return to normalcy. And a reason that's important rich if we don't get this those of us who you know who can safely get this infection. Get over it and make antibodies to it. We are waiting for a vaccine to get our lives back and that may be a very long time away from now. I mean number on viruses are tricky. Bugs it's been really hard to make vaccines to them and you know. Eighteen months has been the optimistic timeline. If we hit snags it could be three years. It could be five years. It's hard to imagine lifelike this for five years. If we're hoping to get back any of what was here before right. I think that that irrespective of the importance of flattening the curve. And you point this out in op Ed and it came up in your in your segment with Bill. Maher flattening the curve doesn't obviate uh-huh from contracting the disease it just pushing the timeline out right so at some I want. Yeah I want to credit someone for that actually so to colleagues at one of the beautiful things that happened from my point of view. Is You know. I'm not an expert in mathematical risk modeling. I am not an expert in virology but after Tom. Friedman Gave me the exposure that his com- gave me a. Who's who in all of these different fields. Social determinants of health health economics mathematical models. Found me on. The one hand has been completely overwhelming trying to keep up on the other. It's been incredible privilege learning from all these people so Maria Cina at University of Pittsburgh and West Pederson at Carnegie Mellon other a couple that that does mathematical rhys molly and they published a piece entitled something along the lines of call for honesty in and modeling. They actually they went into an online tool that had been featured in New York Times column by Nick Kristof Whom I love But Nick was talking about the importance of flattening the curve and they showed how you flatten the curve and you don't get that huge spike in hospitals and deaths in it's really important to avoid overwhelming the medical system. Maria and West didn't create a new tool. They went into that very tool and said okay. If you look at what was published in The New York Times it you know it looks like there's a slight uptick right where they cut off the curve. We're GONNA show you what happens if you release the clan and there was the same hi spike in in in desks in other words. If all if your entire plan is flattening curve you have to do it forever or until there is a highly effective vaccine. Mass produce an uniformly administered. Because the minute you let go you thought you were preventing happens. All you've done is change. The days that that was that was an Aha moment for me. I had it occurred to me from the start that you know that we could again. Pivot to risk-based interdiction. I hadn't thought to say you know this actually can be configured directly into the risk model so that yes you the curb it i. You don't overwhelm hospital systems. That's obviously important. But you need something to transition to unless you're just GonNa Hunker in a bunker and wait for a vaccine. That could be a very long time line and an awful lot of life as we knew it before will be gone by the time we all come out from under our desks. Yeah I think that that risk assessment ends up being motivated in part by an emotional response to what we're seeing because there seems to be a great crevasse between some of the data that you cited and the the harrowing and sobering accounts that you'll find if you scroll through your twitter feed from ICU. Doctors or people that have contracted the disease who paint a very scary picture of what it's like to endure this or to you know die in an ICU. Unable to be surrounded by your loved ones Agree and I think that we should take those stories to heart and certainly a This is this is not to minimize the severity of what we're dealing with. But I don't think that it can get in the way of driving in objective. Well thought plan for how we're going to navigate and ultimately come out the other side here and there is a difference between complete horizontal interdiction where we're on complete lockdown and the other extreme of just doing whatever you want back and I suppose on some level Sweden is the canary in the coal. Mine here by taking a attack that is somewhere in the middle of that spectrum or perhaps you know bent to the right in terms of allowing people to do what they want and people have a lot of opinions about that and are drawing conclusions but my sense is that it's way too early to assess the success or failure of what Sweden is attempting to do. I don't i. I don't know that we can really objectively evaluate that for another eighteen to twenty four months because of course they're going to have higher contraction rates and death rates at this moment. But what does it look like when there's a second wave or a year from now when we're trying to resume life on some level of normalcy? Which personally? I hope we do sooner than a year from now. So yeah in a number of really good points. Let let me start with this one. Many years ago I wrote an article in the American Journal Health Promotion facing the facelessness of public health is. I'm a physician thirty years of of clinical care but my career really has been focused on public health and it occurred to me. Many years ago that public health labors under a tremendous encumbrance. And that is nobody cries for the public. Nobody hears statistics and and you know and hesitation there. I nobody feels passion for the public but the public is a fiction. There is no public. There's you and me and everybody else in the problem with much of what you and I knew all time you know we talk about value. Proposition of lies down. Eighty percent of all chronic disease could go away. We don't make cry. We don't make people feel passion because eighty percent is a bland statistic. I've tried to fix that in talks. Given by asking my audience is how many of you love somebody who said a heart attack. I'M GONNA love somebody who's had a stroke or dementia diabetes or cancer. Now everybody who put your hand in the air you try to remember the day you found out that diagnosis and how you fell the now. Imagine a world where eight times in ten. We don't put our hands up because that's what an eighty percent reduction crises would feel like it's not remote. It's not anonymous. It's not about some entity called the public. That is about you or me. It's about you and me in our families and people we love but it's a huge burden to overcome and the way you overcome is storytelling you face in the and say this is what we mean. Now here's the problem. The the news media have fixed aided exclusively on Kobe. They've been feeding anxiety about Kobe for weeks and weeks and weeks and you could easily get the impression that nobody in America dies of anything else. The reality is heart. Disease Kills Eighteen hundred people a day in our country and has been doing it forever. Eight thousand people die in the United States every day of miscellaneous causes so you could pick any one of those causes. You could pick just heart disease. You could pick just cancer. You could just traffic accidents and say we'RE GONNA experiment with all the different media outlets are just going to tell stories about this one condition all the time and we're GONNA we're GonNa talk about the statistics and the population level risk. But we're also going to tell the human interest stories and honestly if we had done that I think we would be much more concerned about heart disease than we seem to be and maybe would have done something about it since. It's all preventable. But we had done exactly that with code and so they're actually two implications one. Yeah you're right care as much as you do. These are real people and these are these grieving families. And it's all compounded by the fact that you can't be together you know in those moments with you need and that's unique in terrible but the other is massive massive risk distortion. You know the feeling that you know because you tell the story. For example that a child a seemingly healthy child is coded in every parent country. Things will never sending kids back to school but the reality is every year in this country. Some number of kids die because Aaron's put them in the car to drive school and that number is much bigger than Kobe or they die because they were on a school bus or they die because they rode their bikes outside. Now is all tragedies but we're fixating only on the one cause and it is distorting our perception so yeah I totally agree with you. The human interest component absolutely important. But why is IT UNIMPORTANT? If the cause of death is something other than those are real people to those are real families too so we. We need to reconcile those two views. We need to respect this disease. We need to care enormously about every individual every family that is suffering The anguish of this but we also need to recognize families were suffering loss in English in the United States before cove will be suffering after Kobe. Diet along the thing you and I devote all our efforts to kill half a million people. Five hundred thousand so thus far almost ten times as many people as the total death toll from Kobe as today but almost antisemitic every year kills them prematurely right. Where where's the outrage? Where's the where's the passion and the compassion about that? We're not telling those stories. What if that was in the newspaper every day another person died of diseases related to diet in America and yet another and another and another and another we could tell all of those stories with with faces and families but we tend not to so it's important it's valid it's also a distortion. Yeah I suppose the qualitative difference with perspective a heart disease or diabetes. Example is that you're not going to contract one of those diseases by being in the proximity of somebody that that has it but it is yes and no yes and no I again. It's valid there are a number of important differences. I I'm not gonNA argue against but the medium of transmission for. Kobe is droplets through the air. The medium of transmission for death by Diet is culture but yes being in America. Place you at risk being in this culture means it's likely to be transmitted to you and by the way if it's transmitted to you. It's likely to be transmitted to your children. And there's a pretty robust literature on social networks and the risk of obesity diabetes heart disease. So you could argue. All that's really different is the time line and the mechanism of transmission but these are transmissible conditions and they play out over longer timelines but they ultimately affect a lot more people and you know you could say because they happen slower. Maybe that means cove is worse but he unique also argue the other way. Well here's the thing about those chronic diseases. It beat you up for a long time before they kill you know were they ever take years from your life. They take a lot of life out of your years and they're affecting children routinely non. So yes again you know ballads. We create social norms around risk assessment. All the time I mean it would. It's certainly possible that we could institute a federal law. That says you can't drive your car more than ten miles an hour. We could make auto travel far more safe than it is. There's plenty of things that we could do to minimize risk for public health and safety. But there's this valence this this spectrum. I think is calibrated in accordance with liberty and personal freedoms. So as an I agree with you. Listen you're terrific interviewer? Really his awful. No seriously I'm really enjoying this. Let me point something out if I may rish. It's a totally different topic. But I think it does shine a light on this. We had a huge societal Hullabaloo about legalizing medical marijuana let alone recreational marijuana but just medical marijuana was there was a lot of controversy right The public didn't realize is that cocaine was legal all along in every emergency room. I use it as a yard dot. We use the seven percent solution of cocaine on on cotton. Swab and shove it up your nose when you come in with bad episode taxes basically hemorrhage from the knows nothing works better too to cauterize the bleeding temporarily so he can look in there. See going on and fix it. So cocaine was legal to say nothing of drugs like die lauded which is a much more potent opioid than heroin and benzodiazepines which are really dangerous. Habit forming no so in other words drugs off the charts more dangerous than marijuana. Were legal all the time. And since they were league all the time nobody even thought to question it But the simple reason that marijuana wasn't legal in the first place there was this intense about. Oh my God drug in your should it be available and I would argue. There's a bit of that going on. So yeah you can have much greater risks to any segment of the population including children. That nobody pays much attention to because they are already normalized. And even if the risks associated with Colbert were much lower. You still have a hard time talking people into them because we had already decided. Colder risk is unacceptable. And in some sense it's a little bit like ducks to posing medical marijuana and medical cocaine there on greater risks that hide in plain sight that we blithely accept because we're used to them and simply because this is new and exotic and we decided it was unacceptable right at the beginning. It's going to be a hard time. Even we tell people you know the risks to your child going to school in the Arab Cove. It may be comparable to the risk of driving your child to school for three months. It's still going to be difficult. Talk people into that but I do think that's going to be part of the transition back right so here we are were were in around week eight. I believe of this experimental right. I can't I don't even remember what it was like before now when I watch a movie and I see people hugging. Is Visceral reaction to very strange. I but we've been pursuing this path for a while now. Do you think it's possible at this? Point to shift courses and and adopt a more strategic vertical interdiction approach or has the diamond cast in. This is what we're living with. And we just have to continue to pursue this way of life like how are you thinking about our current moment and if we could pivot setting aside politics. What would that look like? Yeah I definitely think we can. I think it's inevitable that we will because you know we're seeing these tensions and and sadly as you point out to me. It's really quite surprising that anything I said was very controversial. My objective clearly stated from the very beginning was total harmonisation and by the way for listeners. We collate it all of our materials on the website of the True Health Initiative under that rubric total harmonization we have the risk models and the columns and the essays nabozny articles but that was the goal. We basically said this. This virus can kill people. Unemployment Food Insecurity Hunger Desperation Estes. Violence Suicide Addiction can kill people to all of. That's bad. We need to be looking across the full expanse of that end devising policies to minimize so hard so sort of surprising. What'S THE CONTROVERSY. Really? And then you. You'd have to quickly append to that. While our efforts minimizing total harm can only be as good as our data. We need harms our. Who's vulnerable to what we're GONNA protect people? We need to know where to direct those efforts. But what we're seeing instead of you know a lot of activity. What I think is the sensible middle. We're seeing the polarization that that we have sown in our society so reaping what we've sown and so you've got you know the we need to keep everybody hunkering in their bunker until there is a vaccine camp and you've got everybody back in the water now. Don't worry about grandma. She'll be fine. Never mind. The RIPTIDES SHARKS. I reject both of those. And you could. You could argue the better way to find. The Middle Path would actually all come together link arms and walked little fat but those opposing tensions are going to achieve the same thing so essentially each side is pushing back against the other and you know the the the only way out of the impasse is to say okay. So you know we've got to return to some degree of normalcy and and yet we still have to protect people that that would be vertical interdiction. So I I think inevitably that's going to happen. What do we need to make that happen so we actually do it? Well we need data and At at the time we're having this conversation. I'm about to testify to the Senate Committee in Homeland Security. I mean really. My world is such a world right. Yeah that's what I said when these guys call seriously but that's happening and I'm going to say look we've sort of in this issue. We need millions of tests and we don't have the resources for millions of tests so therefore we throw our hands near not absolutely not. Cdc routinely tells us really big stuff like you know dive off. America and trends dietary intake in trends in chronic disease not testing everybody in the country but doing surveys like brfss behavioral risk factor surveillance system in representative random samples. We need a representative random. Sample give me you know. Twenty Thousand People Thirty Thousand People. We can extrapolate to a population of three hundred twenty. Five million really. Can we just need to make sure? We've got urban suburban rural all age groups all zip code socioeconomic different health status. But that's what we're talking about so you really need to tell me an end you know. Better than twenty thousand would be fifty thousand. It's a small number. You can't tell me. The United States of America couldn't pull together the wherewithal to do a representative random sample where we know whether you're infected or not whether you're immune or not your health status and all the rest so work of seventy two hours it really is so. I would argue. We can do better than sweet know. Sweden basically guest and Sweden could have done better protecting their nursing homes. Frankly Sweden's certainly didn't have the data. They needed to know who in the general populations in the High Risk Group. But you know. I think we can have Swedish cake and eat it too and what I mean is. Let's get the data we need so we really can risk strategy by and then say okay. We've got quintiles of risk or turtles risk or whatever it is. I don't know whether it's two three groups. Five groups seven groups that you're highly differentiated. But the highest risk groups fully protected until we get to an all clear and the all clear could be a vaccine but it could be heard. Immunity achieve Natively with exposure to the virus to the lowest risk group for whom the risk of severe cogan infection is no greater than seasonal flu and maybe lower absolutely back into the back to work back to school. Intermediate groups intermittent Intermediate policies so either phase back in after levels of viral transmission or lower or back but with personal protective equipment. And frankly if we do this data driven risk stratification. I think we can do a better job of taking care of the people who need it. Most parents are eighty generally healthy. My Mom's had some health issues You know we've not hugged them. Since the start of this you know. They're sheltering at their home. My mother is an told the story in the media. But it's true you know. She can't get through a conversation about without crying K. Yes I don't WanNa get colder than die but I'm equally afraid of dying of something else while waiting it'd be able to my grandchildren again. Know I mean they're SORTA comparably terrible existential threats when you're eighty years old and you're looking at at at the horizon of your life found in. So how does my logger grandchildren as either a vaccine? And we don't know what the time line is or it's enough of us have had this gotten over that we can no longer transmit it. And we say Ma'am it's okay to come back to the world now so you know. We need to think about several components. We need to think about minimizing total harm. We need to think about riskier. We also need to think how these things are configured into some version of an all clear because you know you and I can talk about this going on for a year or two three in it. You know it's terrible but we at least expect to still be here when it ends right if you're eighty years old. This is not the way you want your life to close out. I mean that's that's truly are horrible. So that you know there's a whole cohort. That's wondering do I ever get back to the world before I check out and and I wanna fix that you know that. That's also part of the human interest story here. Yeah I think that we struggle in entr on this subject of minimizing total harm sort of grasping what that means and what the approach is when we're dealing with party isolation education food insecurity the they're abstractions when we're dealing with the very real and immediate threat of trying to prevent people from contracting a potentially fatal disease and so they they get back. Bernard something to deal with later me. Yeah but that's why those stories need to be told to right so again. They they are abstractions. Unless you put facing and you start telling in your newspapers and on television those human interest stories non we have. We have the option of telling the detail. Kobe fallout more completely But my mom is not distraction to me. You know obviously and you know so. I'm looking into the weepy is of someone who's saying. I you know I'm desperate to know that there's a plan. I'm desperate to know that there's a path back to a world where I get to hug my grandchildren and I you right. There is a sense that maybe there really isn't a plan right now. I mean we hear the the the mantra of testing testing testing and yet this world of testing seems to be rife with all manner of problems When we think about the antibody test or the swab test there's a high degree of false negatives as far as I've been told I have a friend who I tested positive and tested negative and tested positive than tested negative again. He's pretty sure he had it. But then it. Then maybe he didn't that foments confusion and fear so when you're talking about establishing a cohort that you can then test and then extrapolate the data from Where are we in terms of testing testing accessibility and also testing veracity? Yeah no it's really good point and I I I can tell you that. For whatever reason the third night three twelve hour shes emerges from the process. We admitted that day. Twenty people with Cova I forget whether it was nineteen or twenty tested negative with the nasal shops. I mean there was no doubt they had you know. There's there's there's sort of a classic lab panel their liver function abnormalities kidney function abnormalities coagulation abnormality. There's there's a classic handle and it just jumps off the page and screams coalition you. And they all had that but there's OB- was negative and so we knew for sure that it was a bad batch swabs or who what. Yeah so we. We can trust him with all the different entities producing kids and competing for their kissed views again. It's the work of a couple of days to say okay. The most reliable test methods for infection are and for. Antibodies are perfect now but perfect the enemy of good we we need. Good data goodwill do So you know that needs to be done it should be coordinated federally we should have the FDA the CDC Department of Health and Human Services collaborate to get that sorted out the best available. Kit should be devoid. And Yeah we have the resources to fifty thousand tests. We absolutely do. We CAN'T DO FIVE MILLION. We certainly can't fifty million but we could do fifty thousand and that's what we do but you're right. We we need data we can trust but it's interesting because as you say it's the false negative error rate that appears to be high and yet with all of the population samples. What we're finding is a lot. More people have had this thing new about again in New York. It looks like twenty percent so that's twenty percent of the level of state that's four million people and that translates the mortality toll in the hardest part of the hardest hit country to a very small fraction of a percent. Now that doesn't make this any less tragic if you were one of those people or one of those people was a loved one in a hastened to note that every time we're talking about real people real families real pain loss but what it does. Change is the likelihood that you're going to get this guy. I if if at of all the people who get this you know point two percent or point one percent of it. Then you know the likelihood of you dying of it even if you get it is that you know something like one point. Two percent less than a very high risk group in other words ninety nine point nine percent probable that. If you get this you'll recover from it and if and if you're in a low risk group it's ninety nine point nine nine nine you know that sort of thing so it does absolutely change the the emotional reaction to all of this is really important so we need those data. We need those data so we know what to do. We need those data so we know who to protect. We need those data. So individuals can make some judgments about their personal risk and process their fear eventually working with colleagues on a personal risk calculator which. I used it myself and this is great. I'm fifty seven years old. I can tell you that before. I went off to to work in a New York City. Emergency Department I had to overcome a lot of resistance in my family. My Kids freaked out my wife. Freak out when mother totally freaked out. You know there was crying and and made it hard for me and I and they said you know you're doing so much to address the policy. Just keep doing that. You don't need to be on the front lines you're making your contributions. I just doesn't feel right. I'm a clinician. I'm an internist I have the skill set. They need the hell. How can I justify abdicating but you know there was a great deal of anguish so fifty seven? I'm on the margin right sixteen above. You're definitely at higher. But I'm extremely healthy. I practice what we preach. And you know I'm a beneficiary of it so I put myself through. This risk calculator colleagues are working on and it it determined that my Kovin risk age was forty seventeen years younger. Which drops me so I? I have the Kobe related. Risk of a healthy forty year old right which meant you know. My risk of needing hospitalization by get infected is percent might risk of the. Icu is a fractional percent. In my risk of dying. This is a tiny fraction of percent. And it's a useful reality. Check those models are only as good as the data flowing into them and when we generate better data the models will get better but even so you know I think I think qualitatively that's right. My risk is comparable to a person much younger because of my health status and I can look at that and say okay you know I. I feel pretty good about this. Minutes very unlikely. This disease is going to hurt me so I can get out there on the front lines and help other people and you know that reassured my family. And you were doing that in the Bronx Koran. Was that it Robert Asphalt's Hospital Montefiore or which it's at Rob Hospitals Hospital system so it was my if you're okay. Montafir has several campuses. Rob was one of the other hospitals. I didn't get to see rob during this time. I was on the Wakefield campus. Yes actually the way this word interesting story in. Its own way. New York City Health and Hospitals Corporation sent out a call for volunteers. I signed up and I heard about this through governor Cuomo and then I got an email as an alum of the Albert Einstein College of Medicine which is home to the monster medical systems. That's where I went to medical school. They sent out an email to all of the alarms instead. We need help so I signed up there too. I immediately heard back from New York City Health and hospitals. You've been assigned to a hospital in Brooklyn but here are the multiple steps. You need to go through to clear. Our bureaucracy was hours hours and hours of online trainings. Had quizzes so I said okay. I'm up to my eyeballs in work. I'll do this as quickly as I can. And I started working through it and it took me over week to fit in all of those hours of training much of it by the way about stuff. That was totally irrelevant. Billing Medicare fraud. I was volunteered. Nobody was paying anything. But I had to go through training module that Medicare fraud by the time. I was nine tense done with the on boarding for New York City Health and Hospitals. Einstein got backing. So don't know no. We're not doing any of that nonsense we can assign you tomorrow. Said okay so I I basically wrote back to the folks at the mothership for the state and said give my assignment in Brooklyn somebody else. I'm going to the Bronx instead. Because they can deploy m-my immediately and I haven't quite made it through your That s unfortunate because he added a Lotta people were caught up in that log jam and wanted to be on the front lines. And we're trying to get through And by the time all of us finally broke through you know. I think we're a little late for the party. But in any event I wound up going to an Einstein System in Monte is part of Einstein. So I so Robin Iowa when we were basically the same medical system but different campuses here a lot about ventilators and we were getting these stories from the doctors on the front lines through social media. but what is how would you relate that experience of being in that environment and treating people first-hand what do people not fully understand about that experience what that's like and and you know where some of the perhaps misinformation about that? Let me address that but before I do since we were just talking about our friend. Rossville fell I. Just WanNa give a shout out to the people who are there. All the time. I'm I retired from clinical care after thirty years ago to focus on public health. And these other things I do and I went and helped. But let's be clear. I just chipped in a little. You Know Rob's been there from the beginning and we'll be there through the end in mind my colleagues who are clinicians full-time the day after day after day. And you and I have been saying on during this discussion Ridge. That everyday feels like a month. Well I can tell you the twelve hours in an emergency department. You know with Kobe case after Kobe case it felt like a year and these guys arrive and all of our clinical colleagues. They're they're doing this day after day after day so I just can't say enough about the support. They deserve an how hard this is n. I tell you this you try you know. We made a big fuss about not having not having ninety. Five masts is no walk in the park. Have One either you try wearing ninety five mass for twelve hours straight the your noses. A braided at of your head is hurting from the elastic. Seriously I couldn't believe how eager was to get the damn thing off our our mutual friend. Danielle Bilardo has been sharing villainously off this and related subjects. And she really you know I like I. I don't know how she has time to post everything that she's posting. Given the circumstances that she finds herself in but following her gave me a very profound kind of tactile connection to yeah for visceral experience of what that must be like. Yeah yes so I was really glad to try it on but I can't say I'm sorry that you know my contribution was the equivalent of about one week of work and you know doing it week after week after week wow yard. It's it's loan so so Kudos to them and thank you And I don't want more credit than deserved right. You know my thinking was I. CanNot Abdicate. A need help. I'M GONNA sign up but my hope. Is You know. Ten thousand people like me. Sign up too because you know. I'm going to contribute a week. That doesn't make much difference. Ten thousand weeks of work makes a huge difference in so I should be part of an and I think I was anyway back to ventilators so fascinating I have never seen clinical medicine involved. This rapidly. In in a thirty year clinical. I've never seen anything that caused us to change fundamental norms of as fast as Kobe did my colleagues in the Er was telling me last week this time we would have been debated these patients. That would have gone ventilators and this week. We're not because this is a different disease. What what's been described for coveted that its effect on the longest a bit. Like altitude sickness The pressure from the ventilator actually takes uninjured parts of long in injuries them and causes them to undergo the viral related damage which is very different from typical pneumonia either bacterial or viral N. What's been discovered along with many other advances in treatment? And by the way this is why you know these days that feel like months and weeks if you like years are good just the same because we're learning very very fast and even getting this disease now is much better than getting a week ago. Let alone a month ago in terms of your likely outcome. Learn along the way or wouldn't yeah Y- The pathophysiology about treatments. They've evolved remarkably in terms of Later what's clear is you put somebody in a ventilator. If you have absolutely no choice if they just you cannot oxygen eight ventilator yet with ventilator and then try to get them off but if if you've got you know even this much latitude you don't put them on a ventilator you them oxygen and you do simple things like reposition them there on the left side. They're on the right side. If you can manage it there run their stomachs and it makes a huge difference in oxygenation just repositioning. So the protocol. A week prior had been plummeting. Oxygen level intimate them protocol. When I was in the emergency room was do everything possible to avoid into baiting them give them high flow to change their position frequently and waited out for an hour to see what's happening and I watched patients get better in an hour that would have been intimated in shipped off to the ICU that we were amazing and then similarly rapid advances in the medical treatment Almost everybody that we admitted opposite in other words they were risk of blood clot formation and there's a specific test called. Deamer test that you can do quite rapidly to see. Is Your relations system in overdrive. Everybody's was so everybody got an anticoagulant and a lot of the adverse outcomes in people who had been admitted the month prior or related to blood clot formation. And we didn't know that that was happening so they weren't routinely treated for now. They're treated preemptively for that. And a number of other medical advances to and of course there's a lot there was interest in hydroxy chloroquine at interest is sort of moved on to a drug called de Severe. But the simple fact is you know all around the world. There is real time experimentation to figure out what works at one of the great prompts. We've not talked about it yet. it's incredible. How bad it is to join the greatest crisis in public health in living memory with a an utterly inept federal government in that combination truly dreadful. And yet you know we. We really have a massive boondoggle in terms of the leadership of our country right now. It's been a huge problem throughout this crisis and one of the things I I've been inclined to say throughout is if only grownups were in charge Ryan if we really had enlightened compassionate leadership that respected science and listened to the right experts so we ought to have end should long since avid at the federal level clearinghouse that everybody could access with promising innovations best practices. I it should be transparent. There should be criteria should be screened and filtered daily by an army of three hundred people trained in science and none of this is rocket science. None of this is a trip to Mars. There's some effort Involved but in the absence of grownups running the country there are thankfully grownups running hospitals and clinics and research labs and there has been massive exchange of ideas and little by little. The Best Practices are percolating to the top. And everybody's adopting them in that becomes the new standard and then there's another round of experimentation to see what is the best of that tier so everybody can take comfort in the fact that the clinical management of Kobe? Nineteen is advancing very rapidly. Well we could spend a lot of time. Deconstructing the federal government's approach or or lack thereof pandemic My hope of course is that this is a learning experience that will inform the creation of institutions and protocols that will help us manage these sorts of situations in the future. But you met. You mentioned that you're going to be speaking to homeland security. I'm curious about your interface with the administration. Have you had an opportunity to communicate with Dr Faucher Yours team? Or what is your relationship to the administration and Are you in a position where you're of counsel to what is happening? Or what does that look like right? Now it it's interesting so you know you mentioned before how I might might piece in the New York. Times became something of a lightning Rod I don't think that's because of what I wrote in The New York Times. I think it's because I wrote my bed Tom. Friedman wrote his and then president trump It let's not let the cure be worse than the disease. That was the title of my APP at The New York Times right. It was an immediate response to having read that piece of course and a dove tails perfectly into you know his preferred approach. That's what it looked like. Yeah governance by TWEET AND NUANCE HOLL AC- responses to the most complicated public health crisis in living memory is not conducive to governance by tweets. But I think what happened was people sort of blamed me for the presidential tweet which I didn't sanction. I never favored everybody back in the water. Never Mind riptides in the sharks. I talked about a data. Driven risk. Stratified pivot from horizontal to vertical tradition. So it's been sort of fraught because it is. I think if this were different administration. I would've actively campaigned to have access and and I think it would have welcomed it. You don't have to look very hard into my paper trail to see where I stand with regard to this administration so I don't think they'd be very comfortable meeting with me directly You know I think she probably knows. He has all the expertise he needs. His problem is his boss So mostly it's been indirect channels of had some communication with without cheese Associate soon and it had some communication with people associated with Joe Biden and have spoken to several governors but this opportunity to interact with a bipartisan committee of the Senate is probably the best opportunity to influence the administration in a way actually means something because they'll be several witnesses will all get to make a a statement for five minutes then be subject to Q. and A. and then all of that information will be available and they'll be so much more substance to that than trying to influence the president who again views this as just another situation to either declare one extreme or the other. It's a hoax. It's a war. Who CAN WE BLAME FOR IT? You know so i. I really struggled with that. I've had colleagues asked me. You know you are asked to be on the Corona Virus Astros. Would you do it at night? I don't know I don't I? Don't trust the person in charge of the information to do the right things with it. So I've been looking for ways to influence policy response. My working with people I felt would put intermission good. I've been very impressed with Governor Cuomo. We've spoken I think. He got caught up for a while in the race to procure resources so there was a lot of focus on the nuances of policy. Any he disappeared for a while and I think it was all because he wanted to make sure he had p. for everybody who needed it and ventilators hostile. That's but I think you know now. He's he sort of moving back and looking at. How do we start to open up? New York in a responsible way minimize harm site might have had a real influence there and I think there's real opportunity because the governor's all talk to one another. They're looking for best practices. And even though you know. They're burying perspectives. To some extent partisan to some extent related to character. They are all looking carefully at one another to see who produces the best outcome so my efforts are mostly focused there. And where does Michael Austerer home fall along this spectrum of of influence and opinion? Yeah so I consider Mike certainly way above my pay grade when it comes to pandemic response specifically. Yeah I think I. I know more about the social determinants than he does But I think Mike is arguably the single leading expert on endemic response in country I widely viewed as such so. When I have questions I asked him And one of the questions. I asked him a couple days ago. Should I shut up? Should I stop talking? He said No. Don't you absolutely do have the big. Because I thought you know getting all this attention I thought it stop. I thought I had fifteen minutes in the spotlight and it would have gone away a long time. I'm GonNa just keeps going and going and should I just say go talk to Mike and he said no you know I mean first of all. It's really important to be able to speak clearly. It's really important to take complicated. Things expressed in the way that the the public can understand. And you're absolutely right. There's more to this story than just the virus garage ear infection. They're are all these other things. No you've got you've got to keep doing. My wife was listening quietly bags. I just had a conversation with her. I I need my life back I know. The world wants their allies back. But I'm not just living through this surreal period but I'm living through this surreal period drinking from a fire hose. I've never been busy. I'm hearing twiddling thumbs do you. Do you WanNa read poetry. Are you kidding? I have you know fifteen hour workdays. I'm happy if I can get a night's sleep but Mike said no you gotta keep going and in terms of our points of view very very highly confident but with one important exception Mike says ask condemn ix at fooled us and so he natively is much more concerned about a certain way than I have been so I looked at the data and said wow you almost everywhere we look with a. We do have decent testing for population that twenty percent of people exposed get infected and about ninety eight to ninety nine percent of those who get infected have a relatively mild case and that pattern displays out again and again and again all around the world. It looks to me like there's a lot of native resistance that people who you know who get this mostly become immune and we're well on our way to hurt unity and Mike says not so fast you know we we were starting to feel good about some of the past Bad flu years and the waned in one season then came back in the fall that happened with the famous pandemic of nineteen eighteen as well. I'm not convinced yet that we're through this. I'm not convinced there won't be subsequent waves. And he cites data vowed high rates of infection in one country and low rates in the neighboring country. And no good reason to account for I'm tempted to think a lot of that has to do with demographics you know. Differences in age distribution and and baseline health and testing. So we know there's a lot of infection countries that do a lot of testing. We think there's no infection countries that do no testing but that's because they don't have the Z's it's because they haven't ascertained Mike is more nervous about a second wave and when somebody like my talks about stuff like that I shot up in listen and so he's made me temper my using think this is. What the data saying this is what I think. I'm reasonably optimistic but I think we have to stay really well prepared. Because past endemic have surprised as unpleasant ways so do we need a supply? Ppa We need search capacity in our hospital system. Do we need a Serb supply of ventilators? Just in case things get bad in the fall. Elia and whatever we do in terms of policy we have to do it. Nimbly we have to be aired at every step of the way for an empirical reality check. This made sense based on what we knew. But we didn't know enough to be sure and you know this is something I will also tell the Senate committee. I've been saying this drought as well if anybody tells you they're absolutely sure. What's the right thing to do in this situation? Run like hell in the other direction because we don't have enough data to know for sure. What's around the next bend? So I've been very gratified when I can. I can get Mike attention so readily I've taken advantage of that. We've spoken multiple times exchanged information. If I have doubts about something I share it with there are others too and I'm really surrounded by a group that knows a lot but I don't pretend to be an expert in all of this tonight happily learn from those who are and Mike's Point of view is encouraging up to a point but having been up close and personal with prior pandemic you know. Keep your powder right. What is your sense of the value of contact tracking APPs at this point? There's been a lot of discussion about that. leveraging technology to get better data and balancing that against privacy concerns. Yeah so I've never really focused preferentially on that. I I think I would be happy to know right now. What is the estimated prevalence of infection in the United States? What is the estimated prevalence of immunity? And what I've advocated is to build a data pair of it so I'd like I'd like to be able to extrapolate from a representative random sample total number infected total number immune out of that group L. Many had any symptoms at all out of that group. How many sought medical attention at all out of that group? Comedy got hospitalized at of that group comedy needed the ICU. Would have that group. Comedy died and then had his all of that relate to a range of age. Bmi Health Status. And that would be almost everything I need to know. And if that told you okay the diseases bad and we really need to interrupt spread pretty much any time someone gets infected. Contact becomes crucial if that pyramid tells us again everything we thought we knew from other countries is true. Ninety eight to ninety nine percent of all cases are mild. And if you talk about people under fifty free of Major Crimes Disease. Ninety nine point nine nine. Nine percent of cases are mild. Is it really worth the effort to put privacy at risk? Do contact tracing in that group. I'd say what we really want to do is make sure we carefully shield the most vulnerable from exposure. And if we'RE GOING TO DO CONTACT TRACING. Let's focus that to that to make sure. Essentially we're identifying have you had exposure. Do we need to do pulse symmetry because if you are seventy two years old and we think you've been exposed. We want to detect the slightest initial decline in your oxygenation level so we can pounce on it. We don't want we don't want to wait until you've got high. Fever are wracked with chills. And your oxygen dropping. Were Ninety because we've missed the opportunity to intervene early So I I would say selective My impression is with you know with the right data pyramid to guide US contact. Tracing could be directed to protecting the highly vulnerable. But I don't think we need to care what the level of exchanges among college students to an earth almost overwhelmingly. They're going to have a mild ray symptomatic bout at this. Why why do we need to know everybody associated with? It's a huge amount of data to process to very little good and I would say the effort that we invest in every aspect of interdiction. Here should be guided by the likelihood of its saving lives preventing bad outcomes and I would channel it accordingly so I see some value in it but I would tend to approach selectively. Where is your head? In terms of optimism versus pessimism in terms of how we're approaching this as a society like forecasting weeks or perhaps several months into the future. What do you think is most is? Is Our most likely approach to this. And where are we going to see ourselves and find ourselves come July August September I again? I think if only because we have these opposing forces of lock it all down until there's a vaccine everybody back out to the world right away. I I think it almost inevitable result of those. Tensions is okay middle-path now just just so has the Middletown I think is a good idea anyway in terms of minimizing total harm. So I think you know we could have gotten there because of signs incense. We may get there because it's the only way out of an impasse that so polarized but I I think we're heading toward that where we phase back in the world I think inevitably it will be somewhat data driven because we have data and governors are looking at the data. They have I think it will be somewhat experimental because we have Republican Governors and democratic governors in. They're inclined to do things differently. So Georgia I think boggled by opening everything up too soon. I think there may be stage than say locked down too long but to some extent. I think the governor's will be looking for okay. Who PASSES THE GOLDILOCKS test? Your to lock down to opened up with like you're having the best experience I'll have. I'll have what she's bright. I think they'll be some of that. I hope that we rallied to a nationally representative. Random sample again. It's not a huge job. We'd make a huge difference. So you know I think maybe the testimony to the Senate will influence that need. That could have been. I think it should happen. And then you know I think we will start to see things open in waves and it's a little bit like what you're towing the water your foot in the water but your leg in the water and you know let. Let's see what happens so I think I think at this point. We have propagated enough anxiety about this even when things open up. They're going to be a lot of people who are reticent about letting their families allowed to the world I do think there's an opportunity to supplant or supplement rather policy responses with informed and empowered individual decision-making. So I think the deployment of tools that help you can quantify your own risk for a severe outcome. I think those would be timely. I think there's real opportunity for what you and I were doing before. All this Where we tell people look you know the stuff that that was lacing. Your health in peril before in slow motion is now in acute threat. Do something about it i. I'd like to see federally mediated. Let's get healthy now campaign but I think a lot of individuals are going to be saying. I really liked to do something about you. Know my hypertension diabetes my way. Where can I get l? Think that may be part of this may really be an a Ha moment about else. In America I and then the question becomes what happens With my parents for example you know went. When do we give them the all clear? So my inclination would be. We look at viral transmission. We continue to track it. We try to get better. Data bad the the prevalence of antibodies and when it seems that we have a high level of immunity among at least whatever portion of the population tends to get this thing and near zero transmission virus. They get to come back out to the world. Hug their grandchildren. Mike Ostra homes point of view and and the point of view of others. Who are warning. We may see waves of this is is a precautionary tale. That says you know. Let's let's be really careful about the potential need for sheltering vulnerable populations again at a later date. If in fact we are low and then another surge Again that may be true. I I cannot dismiss points of view from people as well informed as as my but I can't. I can't use the the notion of waves to account for what's happening on navy ships. I can't use the notion ways to account for what happened on the diamond princess. Why is it that on a container ship? Only twenty percent of people got infected. They were all exposed to one degree or another but eight. Ten people on the ship didn't get the bug at least in terms of what our testing tells us and most of those who did get infected got over it and are now immune so far as we know to me that's very encouraging so I'm a look at South Korea look at Iceland. I look at Germany. I look at Sweden. I look at the Diamond Princess. I look at the navy vessels and I say you know honestly pretty optimistic. I think I think a lot of the population is resistant. Just this thing. Even if they're exposed I think most people who get it into know they're not very elderly or not seriously ill or both recover from it. We are getting better treating it. I think we do need to shelter the vulnerable both because it's not safe for them to get it and because that's the best way to avoid overwhelming medical system but I think we can stop doing that when the rest of us have already been out in. The world tested the waters for them and said by all transmissions near zero and then we just stay light on our feet so it starts to recur. We have adaptive policies. But I think we get to something approximating life as we knew it before within the next couple of months that's encouraging it does appear to be a very strange and perhaps unique disease in the manner in which it afflicts people you know as you mentioned There are at risk groups of of course but we're all hearing the stories of the robust thirty year old. You Know Chew Jitsu artist or you know athlete. Who suddenly contracts this and dies and I would I would suspect those outlier cases but there are also alarming in that it doesn't appear to have a rhyme or reason and who it in the manner in which it impacts people in this disparate way and I think that creates a lot of fear and confusion among people that makes it more difficult to wrap your head around like what the best course of action is for yourself right like I feel like I'm fifty three but I'm pretty healthy. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about what it would be like to to become that ill or contract this disease but in the back of my mind. I'm aware of those Those stories and it weighs on me and I think about that when I venture out into the world and I just oppose that against you know I think that that you know we've all been locked down for a period of time and I don't know what the vibe is in Connecticut and New York at the moment but I can tell you in California. There's there's a growing restlessness. I think human beings are only wire to be able to adhere to this kind of thing for for so long before they start bursting at the seams. And they're like fuck it. I'M GONNA I'M GONNA go out into the world and roll the dice. I'll be safe but you know I'm just not going to stay at home a any longer. I'm seeing that you know now. And so there's a kind of a leakage or spillover effect that irrespective of what the government is telling us. We should or shouldn't do or can't do people are still going to do what they're going to do exactly. It's all the more reason why we are going to move into the next phase of this soon if only because human nature draws there the backyard point I totally agree rich and and again this issue of it kills young healthy people it kills young health professionals does but you do not make it through week one of epidemiology one wanna one without learning to ask always in every time what is the denominator so I ended a beloved colleague It really dear friend It's hard for me to tell the story even these several years later and not Ciocca adderall Lee we work together clinically for fifteen years. First naturopathic tradition ever on the faculty died at forty. Two of Asaf Jill Cancer I had no god damn idea why In never smoked eight optimally practice meditation daily Exercise Routinely Beautiful Wife lovely children gentle kind loving thoughtful purposeful Evil beautiful human at you. Know they meet angry. What unkind fate and then just recently. I have a friend where where I ride. My horse. She's in her. Forties pancreatic cancer no risk factors. No reason if we told everyone of those stories with the commitment. We have two telling Rico Story. You know what's going on in Pancreatic Cancer Jill cancer and there are enough of them. There's a critical mass stores. They could be in the news every day and we would wind up thinking my God I you know. I'm fifty seven or fifty three. I'm forty two. I was healthy. I didn't think I had to be afraid for my life every day but every day there's another story of a person my age or younger my health or better getting some dreadful disease. We thought only happened to people with risk factors. What's going on? All my God skies fall does human nature to WANNA know why and in medicine one of the things you have to reconcile yourself to over the years is you often have notion of. And sometimes I don't have a clue and when enough people get Kobe. If millions and millions seroprevalence suggests four million people in New York state alone have had this when millions of people get something. Some of them are going to have a really bad bizarre outcome. You can account for based on their health their age and then of course you know with the healthcare professionals there. They're still quite rare because most of the frontline people have been exposed. Had this gotten over it. So it's it's probably a very tiny fraction of the the the health professional cohort that has a severe case. But it may have something to do with does You know another thing you don't you don't make it through your Mbh to be without. Learning is that infectious disease is host agent environment at the host. Is You would me the agent in this case is SARS koby to and the environment is very different if you were you know in a room where somebody with? Kobe had been a couple hours ago. You were exposed to some small number revival. You got a little bit sick in your immune system took care of it versus you're doing bronchoscopy in the ICU. And were exposed to a massive dose of viral articles. That overwhelmed your defenses. And there's an easy way for people think this is a pretty good analogy. You know you have a compound. You're defending your perimeter. And your defense is your immune system and if you if there's an ambush by a relatively small number of the enemy you can repel if that same enemy amounts of force that is one hundred times bigger than your defense force. You get overwhelmed and really bad. Things Happen Viral infections like that. So the dose of exposure is basically the size of that ambush. It makes a huge difference in whether your immune system gets the upperhand early or whether it's completely overwhelmed. I think that accounts for some of the health professionals but but again some of this is you're just right and scary. Some of this is. Yeah but it's because we're telling Kobe stories in every news cycle incomparably bad things for comparably bizarre reasons or happening to young people around the country every day. And we're not telling those stories so it looks like Colbert is the one and only risk in God's Sky's falling. It's a distortion really is. The risk is small. Well you've been incredibly generous with your time and I want to be mindful of that and release to your life in a minute before we wrap this up. I think it would be good to to end it with some thoughts on on. You know what we can do personally you. We spoke earlier a little bit about Immunity obviously we want to maximize and boost our bodies A immune response. We want our immune system to functioning at its peak. There are certain things that we can do lifestyle practices and dietary protocols that Kenan hance that and I think this is a subject matter That we could talk about for hours but is I want to keep it brief. But it's it's a you know it's kind of an underrepresented conversation in this dialogue around Corona virus. What we can do personally to make sure that we're as healthy as possible. So should we come into contact with the virus? Were in the best position to be able to confront and overcome it absolutely needs a huge issue and interestingly it's another one that we've polarized so you've got people sort of pedaling nutrient supplements Willy Nilly and then you've got articles in the New York Times elsewhere. Telling people died nutrition nutrients. Don't make any difference and both of those are silly. You know it's not as if you're GONNA take some number of supplements and it's going to make you bulletproof but the idea. That diet makes no difference to immunity is absurd every day. Your body is replacing. White blood cells in the construction material comes from you. Nutrition and so whether or not those membranes are optimized whether or not you're able to replenish the productive capacity of your bone marrow absolutely on every aspect of diet is not just one nutrient yes. Zinc is important by vitamin these important. All of that. But it's the full array of amino acids is the full array of fatty acids balanced diet is the source of construction material for the replenishable portion of your immunity. Think about antibodies. We talk about antibodies. Those proteins you have to build them. You need an optimal diet to build optimal materials. And then there's anti-oxidants the key role of antioxidants is to defend your healthy cells. Your immune system is like an army. It's engaged in chemical warfare. There is the risk of collateral damage. And frankly one of the reasons people get so sick with colored is decided kind storm which is activation of the immune system to fight the virus doing damage to your healthy tissues balancing your immune response so it's not excessive but it's also adequate has a lot to do with balanced nutrition. Protecting your healthy cells has a lot to do with derision so enormously important. And it's immediately actionable. We've done studies over the years when I was directing the prevention center at Yale looking at vascular function and key measures of homies and help that change in response to a single meal. So people should not think you know. I know guy less important. But they can't help me in time. They can help you in time. You can make a difference today. You can make a real big difference in the span of some days and you'd make an enormous difference. You could pretty much one eighty in the span of weeks and that's fast enough so what we're trying to do everything we can to help with this again. Collaborating with colleagues on a personal risk calculator on as you know rich. I run a company now diet. Id where we can assess diet. Pattern died quality nutrients level. And we're making that freely available direct consumer where a B. Two B. Business. But we're actually making this available to people so they can see whether or not their diet is risk factor for Kovin and knew something about it immediately and we help. Coche them to a more optimal diet so you can learn more about that a diet. Id Dot Com. But the big picture here is that you know stuff about diet lifestyle. Hell that may be didn't grab your attention before because again it didn't trigger fight or flight response suddenly does the suddenly. You're not the way you know. I know him. At risk for heart disease diabetes could fix that tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow comes. But you're literally worried about Cogan infection tomorrow and all of a sudden Help well good news. You really can do something about it. So physical activity really important. Enough sleep really important. Obviously all the stuff about personal hygiene managing stress all those key elements of a lifestyle medicine. That report before if you smoke. There's never been a better time to quit. But there's also never been a better time to improve your guy and there are some nutrients that probably are a good idea. Vitamin D is ones. Zinc is another vitamin C may be a third Maybe Omega three two ounce immune system response but one of the best. Defences is against a bad outcome. Here would be optimize your die. I think people know what that looks like but on the off chance. They don't WanNa be eating vegetables. Fruits all grains beans lentils nuts and seeds plain water when Thursday. In the more. You're eating whole plant foods the better in terms of all of these different elements and you know if we took the hours you just mentioned we really could talk through all the mechanistic athletes. How does that translate into antibody? Production has that translate into lymphocyte production activity in neutral fill. Production acted you know. There's there there the this is not with the this is not trying to make the case. That is important. You've got whole text books on the linkages between dietary intake endocrine balance immune system function. It's fundamentally important. It can alter your risk in hours and certainly days and profoundly in weeks so I would say you know. There's never been a better time. Don't let another day go by where you don't at least try to leverage the power diet to protect you against this bug. Yeah that's fantastic advice. Well thank you David I hope to continue that aspect of the conversation at a future date and do a podcast the way that we originally conceptualized where we can go deep on. Diet and lifestyle for people that are listening. You did a great job on Danielle BLERTA's podcast awhile. Back where you kind of laid out your whole perspective on nutrition and that's certainly valuable if people are watching or listening. I point you to that but hopefully I'll have an opportunity to sit down. Meet you in person and we can talk more. I hope you'll come back on the show. I looked that rich. You thanks very much and thank you keeping a voice out there. I don't I don't envy your political hot potato Status at the moment of voice of reason is much appreciated in this moment of calamity and I appreciate the work that you do a proud supporter of true health initiative. Which hopefully we can talk about. More later And I've I've I've been an avid fan and follower of the work that you've been doing for a long time and I wish you well and I want you to keep doing what you're doing so stay healthy all right. That's the plan. Thank you so much richer than spend the rest of the day packing up this microphone. I gotta get back. We tried to make it easy. They worked out fine. How you feel I. Yeah this is my first. I've done a couple of remote podcast. This is the first time I've tried to do it on video and I think it went pretty good. You Mad IF PEOPLE WANNA learn more about you and your work. What's the best place to point them towards my website links to diet? Id and true health initiatives probably the easiest place for One Stop Shopping David Katz MD DOT COM right. And I'll put links up in the show notes. You also write quite frequently on linked in where put yes longer. Thought pieces there so direct website that too. Yeah thank you and listen. I really appreciate what you do. So thank you so much. Thank you all right. Well UNTIL NEXT TIME DAVID. Thanks so much take care. Stay these plants. I was at how that one go down for you. How are you feeling? There's a lot to digest there. I know so maybe this let it simmer for a bit to learn more about work. Check out the show notes on the episode page at ritual Dot Com. I've got links there to all of his digital destinations as well as many articles pertinent to today's discussion including David and Tom Friedman's respective New York. Times OP ED pieces. While you're at it. Give David follow on the socials. You can find them at Dr. Dave cats on twitter and Dr David Katz on Facebook as well as linked in whereas I mentioned. He publishes many notable long reads. That are worthy of your attention. Finally out his latest book how to eat. It's a game changer. Down with fake news and fads up with science people. If you'd like to support the work we do here on the show. Subscribe rate and comment on it on apple podcasts. Spotify and Youtube share the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media. And you could support Azzam patriotic ritual dot com for slash donate. I appreciate my team. Who Endeavor to labored long and hard to put on today's show. Jason Kam Yellow for Audio Engineering Production. Show notes and interstitial music. Flake Curtis for doing double duty helping me with the zoom video version of today's podcast. Which had its technical difficulties but I think everything went fine Jessica Miranda for graphics Alli Rogers who generally does portrait's but not when we're doing remote decay for advertiser relationships Georgia Whaley for copywriting and theme. Music is always by Angela. Thanks guys I appreciate you. I'm wishing you well. I hope to meet you on this path of life in good health at some point and I will see you back here in a couple of days with another great episode until then be well take care of yourself love yourselves. Love others trying to be a little gentle with your cells all right piece plants.