2 Episode results for "Dale Levin"
137 - Madame Delphine LaLaurie: How Evil Was She?
"If you've ever gone on a haunted tour of New Orleans like I have you're bound to stop the former residents of one Madame del Fien LA Lurie, the spooky haunted house music, located eleven forty Royal street. The lottery mansion as it's now known is just one short block off the bourbon street of New Orleans, mardi gras infamy breasts and beads alcohol and carpet diem lottery mansions, a swanky looking structure in the French quarter. That currently is a private residence that no one is believed to actually live in its emptiness certainly adds to its Irina Ted its fair share of owners over the years. No, one seems to stay long actor Nicolas Cage recently owned and then lost it to the Bank during a bankruptcy proceeding and current anonymous owner bought it at an auction for for round two and a half million dollars back in two thousand ten I wanted to say, it's really creepy looking place. But I think it only appears creepy to me because of what I've heard has happened inside its walls, some say like my. Ghost tour guide. The lottery mansion is the most haunted place in all of New Orleans. A city known amongst goes honors as a land of many, many huntings New Orleans consistently makes or tops varies internet list of the most haunted cities in America over the years. There have been numerous supposed paranormal sightings in the lottery mansion such as one occupant claiming to have an attack by naked black men in chains. Then ended his mysterious assault by just abruptly vanishing. Others have claimed to have heard the sounds of animals being butchered inside the house children have been allegedly attacked by a phantom with whip strange figures wrapped in shrouds have suddenly appeared inside the home one occupant. Young mother was once terrified to find a woman in elegant evening clothes bending over her sleeping infant before vanishing into thin air and there've been all kinds of claims hearing screams, groans and cries throughout the night, our tour guide told my wife Lindsey is that he himself had had seen apparitions peering into windows several different times. I remember standing on Royal street across from the mansion goosebumps. Cover. My arms are guide also spoke of strange accidental deaths that have happened over the years to those who have dared walk on the sidewalk in front of the house all these tales real or just baseless ghost stories repeated to sell more haunted tour tickets, and why this house at of all the creepy homes. New Orleans was about a thousand homes, the qualifies great place to film, a horror movie, why this location we learned on the axe man, suck of New Orleans, months and months ago. Plenty of horrific shit has happened in a variety of other New Orleans homes. So again, why is the residents of Madame Delphine lottery supposedly haunted or the answer takes us even darker possibilities and haunting here's an example of what a New Orleans ghost tour guide may tell you about the horse. Some volunteer firemen may have encountered in the lottery home caught fire on April tenth eighteen thirty four. This is a a guide speech referenced in the book. Madame mad Madam Lowery New Orleans. Most famous murderous revealed when I read this book, I immediately. That the authors, Victoria, kosner love and Laura lie. Shannon may have had the same tour guide that I did this tour guides depiction of what the firemen who arrived at Madame Delphine supposed house a horse is going to be extremely graphic. The firemen broke down the doors and found a scene more hellish than the inferno on the lower floors. These strong men used to gore and carnage backed out of the room, shaking and wretched some could not stop themselves from vomiting at last the firemen claimed calmed themselves along with some of Lowery's neighbors. They went into the attic to save the poor wretched creatures that they had discovered everywhere. The firemen look they saw chain slaves. Some were naked in some nearly dead. The stench of fear, sweat and human waste with stomach-turning. But what the firemen saw was infinitely worse all of the slaves have been outrageously mutilated abused or starved one woman had her skin peeled in a spiral around and around her body. So she resembled Macab, Caterpillar one. Man and one woman appeared to have had crude a crude sex change operation performed on them her breasts were sloppily sewn onto his chest and his penis sewn to her crotch another man chained to the wall had a hole drilled into his head maggots crawled in and out of an open wound a woman had Oliver bones broken and reset at different angles. So that she resembled a nightmarish crab when the doors burst open. She scuttled to a corner to hide shrieking out a high hideous barking sound buckets of body parts litter the room several of the slaves perished when rescuers tried to move them. Others fainted from the shock one woman blind with terror jumped to her death from the window. Well, fuck is going on in the lottery home. These firemen stumble across the, you know, some evidence of maybe the worst treatment of slaves or just human beings in general in American history, which is saying a lot or. Or is the tale of Madame Delphine Lowery. You an example of one of the worst cases of slander in American history as some historians suspect which would also be saying a lot or the truth as it often is somewhere in the middle. We're gonna find out today today, we dive into the folklore surrounds the life of Madame Lowery, which leads us into an examination of life in New Orleans in the early nineteenth century and sends us into the world of voodoo hoodoo laws regarding the treatment of New Orleans slaves. The war of eighteen twelve and much much more while we may never know exactly where the line between fact and fiction is drawing detail the dark tale of Madame lottery. We know for sure that her story is an interesting one, which is why she is our topic of the week today on time suck. Happy Monday, suckers, work can wait. It's time for time. Suck hail Nimrod. Loose a phenom bojangles. Hey, you're cool to what about triple m. What about triple m summers here? And that means so is y'all rock and who's the captain of the yacht. Rock cock yacht. Michael motherfucking McDonald that to shown Swede Friel shine a lot on me by you all the magic, you'll run Votto be all sweet freedom Keira me along bump bump, I will keep the spirit of who. Hanno bump out of. Who just gave myself? I was all over the fucking note the music map on that one. I started started in the key of f minor I went into the key of c plus plus, and then I went into the little known key of ace, lash F squared. Just, you know, just showing short awesome skills. That's a tricky one man days. A tricky one man that song if you're feeling sad, by the way, find that YouTube on that video on YouTube, Michael McDonald, Billy, crystal, Gregory Hines so much joy Goodall running scared. Classic soundtrack song in the videos is great. When the video was done back. When the when the singers would be in the video with the stars of the movie, they would film it like in locations from the movie a love that kind of stuff. Sorry about that buzz. That was me hitting something. I shouldn't as me put my hand on a on a cable where I shouldn't have. But yes, that's a tricky one tricky one. But it's been it's been a long time since you got McDonalds, and I wanted to try Dan conference a master sucker. Third chair keytar for the triple m backing band can see Michael McDonald's this summer, and you know, if something if you get sick, maybe maybe I could fill in. I could work on it. You know, if I if I could master this song, I could probably mass with the others. Sure. Frit? That's where I should've started. It's going to be my head. If I don't get it out. Sure, we real. Shahram burp pump. You wrote? That's how you're supposed to fucking do. It. Oh, I love challenges stories at challenge. But can be fun. Let's make learning fun today. More cool updates at the end today show. They're always cool, but the past few weeks of an extra extra special sugar on top cherry on top of the sugar. How how ever that goes quick announcement on behalf of the time suck a documentary filmmakers, Jamie, gene, and Elliot Davis? These two cool cats these to these two fine, upstanding gentlemen, there were making a documentary that's been in the works for a while. Now. Now, these things take time we have no idea when it'll be done where or win it'll be released two thousand twenty probably the earliest way these things go, but it's been an ongoing project for quite some time. And Jamie and Elliot are going to be Seattle this Saturday. They're going to be screening their first feature length documentary to kick ass and heartwarming wind and water balloons. It's going to be made four ten pm. Part of the port orchard film festival just outside of Seattle wind and water balloons, the story. Jamie's hometown of Cordova Alabama a town destroyed by not one but two violent tornadoes in two thousand eleven and then. This small community fought back fought together. United self in one of the most unlikely of ways with the return of seventy plus year tradition of Halloween night water balloon warfare hail Nimrod, Jamie element should Jesus Christ. They said, they're literally don't even notice Jamie and Elliott will be up from Nashville to attend the showing, and and they're gonna have little CUNY, and they would love to meet some time suckers who knows if you show up you might get a putting the documentary. They're going to have the cameras for more info. Go to the port orchard film, fest dot com. Lincoln today's episode description thanksgiving for the recent I tunes ratings and reviews. They're all appreciated. Help spread the stock as you ratings and reviews in every possible place. You can watch listen, and yes, you can't watch the suck is on YouTube video form if you like watching a madman ran alone in a room for two hours. You can see my sweet shirt I got today. Steve gatlin star makers as river. Dr Joe paisley said it may be laugh. Place as far as the TV guide rankings. But I in our hearts you spaces. There's no exactly we're talking about hoping my shows in Dallas and Houston went well recording this head of those shows which have not happened. Home-ice unkind enjoyed his first comedy road trip with debt over didn't have to scream at him for being late, which has been a thing. Lately excited this week for shows the punchline in San Francisco may I fourth Saturday, I show sold out some of the other shows close. So if you're planning on gum, and what what am I talking about? You're not planning on gum. And what are you going to be coming? If you're planning on coming, then you should get those tickets. They get show you one live ant hill. Kids time suck on Saturday. The fourth looking like it may sell it as well may nine to eleven that laugh Boston in Boston Massachusetts love Boston. Another live heal kid suck and Spokane wash on Sunday nineteenth. Then the comedy zone in Jacksonville, Florida may thirtieth thirty four and June first, and then I'm off to Omaha Nebraska, June seventh and eighth nother. Good song Omaha somewhere in middle America. Get. Rock to the heart of matters, his heart. There matters more. Did you know that Adam dirt's from the Counting Crows wrote that song before he'd ever set foot in Omaha as a fun? Random fact, I learned watching Adam doors interview because I like that band lot of people don't, but I do. Okay. So fucking that that that means you can't listen anymore because like fuck that guy. I'm not sticking around here. I can't see I did rivers. Another ticket info for the entire two thousand nine. Happy murderer stand up tours. Dan, comes dot TV hope, you got your tickets as well to the gathering fifty five tickets went on sale in this episode began for the first of what is hopefully going to be many annual times against actually is the second. The I wasn't called the gathering last year. Some of us did gather at the brand new subjects suck down about twenty five of us. Now, it's gonna be fifty five hopefully, many more next year and that gatherings going to happen on Saturday August seventeenth two thousand nineteen. Yeah. If you want to see if any tickets left, your the time suck Mercia if I. Website. It's like the gathering tab and just hope that there's tickets there. Make sure you real the directions include your shirt size and mailing address. And preferred to or time of the suck dungeon when you sign up. It's all there on the site. Also in the sites also in the store new new teacher hits the store today. White one got a varied up Calvi black check out. Our all American fact checker shirt, and and I know I know not all of time suckers are American, but we're based here in America and feel good to tip. The hap what am I God damnit tip? The hats. There's going to be fun episode today. We haven't even got to the friendship, and I'm my batting. Average on words is about forty fucking percent right now. But you gotta tip the hat to the homeland of the suck. It also felt right to acknowledge time suck dedication to the truth. Which is a group effort as you guys know, we do our best here to tell you the story of the week to the best of our ability, and then collectively you glorious listeners catch mistakes, and you correct them getting to the truth can be extremely difficult. Finding stuff online. A lot of books. Not all of them are accurate off a lot of websites. Very few of them are accurate, and we we couldn't be accurate consistently or as consistently as we are. Without you, meet sack fact checker, so he'll Nimrod and began lose to FINA this torso. Topper made a two hundred percent. Theo Sahfiqul truth. Crystal for one hundred percent mount Shasta, the Mirian battle armor for enhanced awareness, an extra dimension of astral plane projection. Why can I say things like that correctly? If I gave like a new age speech, I feel like I'd be neyland shit. And then if someone was like, hey, can you give me your dress? I live on this state of Idaho street, I-, coordinating, happy what? Okay. Let's get some history. Let's get to some horror. And and see what else we get to with today's tale. It is time now for Madame Delfi. We're gonna we're gonna go quick in today's timeline. No, dick and around the the context. Madam Lowery's life will come up or Ganic as we March forward. Fhu. Slavery war gonna get into all kinds of surrounding interesting contextual ship as we examined the life of someone by by primarily examining the lives of those around her. Since surprisingly little was written about giant chunks of the life of someone who's become so infamous get to it. Wrap on those boats soldier where Martin down a time summertime lie. Talk about Maria del phen- Lowery who we think was born in seventeen eighty seven. It's important to know about the social and political circumstances of Louisiana previous twin lot of relive. Their lottery was born New Orleans was still city in the Louisiana territory. Talk about that territory. How about you come back to sixteen eighty two with me that year people were way grocer the now because bikini wax and good shampoo and scientifically hand skin products hasn't been created yet. No one ever applied sunscreen or use legitimate toothpaste ever picture that when you hear about somebody beautiful from back, then kind of beautiful beautiful with fucking Brown teeth and leather skin also in sixteen eighty two Louisiana territory. Not the American state was founded by French explorer, Rene, Robert cavalier, Sierra de LaSalle named it in honor of the French king. Louis the fourteenth, it originally covered an expansive territory that included most of the drainage basin of the Mississippi. River stretch from the Great Lakes to the Gulf of Mexico and from the Appalachian nailed it mountains to the rocky mountains. However, just because Kelly had claimed a great deal of territory North America didn't necessarily mean that all of it was developed or even inhabited by Europeans. The biggest settlements were Nolan's found in seventeen eighteen Quebec founded in sixty eight and Montreal founded in sixteen forty two while the French had Fords from Florida to Wisconsin. There just weren't that many Europeans in North America. Two and a half million estimated population of North America in seventeen seventy five and most of those people were in major metropolitan areas, like Philadelphia, New York City. It's estimated that around seven thousand euro Pean immigrants settled in Louisiana during the eighteenth century, not a lot a number one hundred times lower than the number of British colonists on the Atlantic coast because everything being spread out. It was relatively hard to defend territory that you'd claimed especially if you were already fighting wars at home as Louie the fourteenth was fast forward. Seventeen fifty six the seven years war begins and includes every great power in the western world. But basically the rundown is that it's England versus France was pressure Portugal. Small German states coming in on England side, France getting a little backup from the holy Roman empire, Russia Spain, some historians. Call this war World War zero because of its unprecedented at the time global scale sw, what happened now who conflict well conflict between a Great Britain and France broke out in seventeen fifty four last between seventy four seventy fifty six when the British attacked disputed French positions North America starting with the British ambush of a small French force at the battle of. Of june. Ville Jim Ville, Glenn on may twenty eight seventeen fifty four and extended across the colonial boundaries and the seizure of hundreds of French merchant ships at sea. A lot of stuff also happens on mainland Europe focuses on Prussia trying to recover some land from Austria, which we won't get into Buchanan magin. It was a sort of a mini version of the chain of a set off World War One, which we've all talked about here on suck with everyone jumping side of either England France dependent one where enemies were wars also called the French in any war, which facility refers to the conflict between France and England in the new world. So what happened in the new world and the early seventeen fifty s Francis expansion into the Ohio river valley repeatedly brought it into conflict with the claims of the British colonies, especially Virginia during seventeen fifty four and seventeen fifty five the French defeated in quick succession young George Washington, general Edward Braddock Braddock successor Governor William Shirley of Massachusetts in seventeen fifty five. Governor Shirley fear into the French settlers in Nova Scotia, aka Katie. Would side with France and any military confrontation. He expelled hundreds of the Acadians to other British colonies, many of these exile suffered cruelly. We'll talk about these exiles or at least their descendants here a little bit throughout this period. The British military effort was hampered by lack of interest at home rivalries. Among the American colonies and France has greater success in winning the support of the American Indians and seventeen fifty six the British formally declared war making the official beginning of the seven years war. But their new commander in America. Lord Loudon, aka John Campbell, fourth. Earl of Loudon face the same problems as his predecessors met with little success against the French and their native allies what pompous name, by the way. Lord loudon. It does. I Lauren stand up on my white powdered wig behold. My shoddy buckled shoes gaze upon my cotton, Nicosia, cts, Laura loud and wears nothing. But the fanciest of fancy toll socks. The tide turned in seventeen fifty seven because William Pitt the new British leader saw the colonial conflicts is the key to building vast British empire Burling heavily to finance the war. Berlin, buccaneers just bird himself on the ground. He's gonna pay for this war somehow quick, stick a whole Berlin. He borrowed heavily to finance the war. He paid Prussia to fight in Europe. And he reimbursed the colonies for raising troops North America in July seventeen fifty eight the British won their first great victory at Louise Berg near the mouth at the Saint Lawrence river month later, they took fort Frontenac as the western end of the river, then they closed on Quebec where General James Wolfensohn spectacular victory in the plains of Abraham in September seventeen fifty nine we're both. He and the French commander the marquee Damon. Calm. We're fatally wounded with the fall of Montreal in September seventeen sixty two French lost their last foothold in Canada England, redirects this energy to take his much of Spain's and France's. Territories across the a can finally time for some peace. Conferences seventeen sixty three France England Spain plan on sitting down and figuring out how to divide up the new world. England has thirteen colonies on the east coast and parts of Canada. France has parts of Canada and Louisiana. Spain has Florida and Cuba. So here's what franchise because they hate England so much as negotiations began to end seven years war. Louisville fourteenth secretly proposes to his cousin Charles third of Spain that France gave Louisiana to Spain in the treaty of photon blue when the treaty actually has drawn up. It's called the treaty of Paris. It ends the war with the provisions of which France seeds all territory east of the Mississippi, including candidate to Britain Spain seat, Florida and land east of the Mississippi, including Baton Rouge to Britain Spain now controls Louisiana and New Orleans becomes a Spanish city. We touched on some of this in the Napoleon suck. Also at this time England starts kicking out French Canadians from Canada, the sets off the Acadian Cajun migration with French settlers from Quebec and settlers on the east side of the Mississippi who'd been ordered to leave the new. Reserve migrate into two Louisiana, which they believed was still French controlled land west of the Mississippi as well as New Orleans in seventeen sixty eight and Tonio day day allure becomes the first price fucked up his last name becomes the first Spanish governor of Louisiana doesn't go. Well, he doesn't even get to fly the Spanish flag and his forced to leave by a pro French mob in the rebellion of seventeen sixty eight the next year at one hundred zero O'Reilly suppresses a rebellion. Executes as leaders in send some plotters to prison in moral castle in Havana, Cuba, things go better for one hundred. Few executions. Sometimes it's a good way to stab some law and order, you know, sending a fear into the hearts of the citizens to properly rule them. Totally works just asked Lennon or almost every other dictator in history Alejandro was otherwise benign and pardons. Other participants who swore allegiance to Spain. He established Spanish law and the council of New Orleans, and he also has an interesting name this guy, or maybe two sounds interesting to me or funny to me because that's stupid O'Reilly auto parts Marshall, which has been played approximately a gazillion times last ten years as picture them saying stuff like me number is a handle or or orally autoparts. All right. Quick recap. Louisiana was French was endanger becoming British territory, then was given to Spain. And then mobs in New Orleans run off the first Spanish governor. And then Canadian still think Louisiana's French the spells one Bigalow? Identity crisis for this area. Not only is there a crisis of leadership. There's also just in general enormous. Variety of ethnicities, religions and nationalities. Living in New Orleans since it's a port city, the refresh Spanish and British residents as well as an enormously population immigrants from the Caribbean islands German Irish in Italian immigrants and more when the US government took over ownership of cosmopolitan New Orleans on December twentieth. Eighteen three when Mademoiselle Fien is only sixteen it acquired a city that immediately ranked as the ninth largest in the country and a port with extensive trade networks throughout Europe North America, the Caribbean Latin America at the time only one nine of the city's population was of African origin. The city more than doubled in size after ten thousand refugees from the seventeen ninety four to eight four rebellion in Haiti found a new home in New Orleans in eighteen o nine these Saint dooming gay refugees, included, French colonists free Creoles of color. Ex-labour many of whom returned to bondage after set and Florida American shores how much does that fuck and suck right? You just find a rebellion. You know, you're you win your freedom you sail over to America like half the prize motherfucker. Back. We got you. Again, Cudjoe suck eighteen ten cents is records. The city population is about one third white one third free people of color, one third African slaves who constituted, obviously, the bottom of the labor market and the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder. The melting of all these cultural backgrounds gave rise to the term Creel as it was used in the new world. The term Creole was first used in the sixteenth century to identify descendants of French Spanish or Portuguese settlers living in the West Indies and Latin America, there is general agreement to the term Creole derives. From the Portuguese Portuguese word Creal, which means a slave born in the master's household probably also in pronounce that one right? My portuguese. Not good single definitions advised in early days of European colonial expansion, but his krill populations established divergence social political and economic identities the term acquired different meanings, which is why it's gotten so confusing today in the West Indies Creole refers to a descendant of any European seller. But some people have. African descent also consider themselves to be krill in Louisiana it mainly identifies. French speaking populations of French or Spanish descent people whose ancestors were upper class whites many of whom are plantation owners or officials during the French and Spanish, colonial periods during the eighteenth and nineteenth century, they formed a separate cast that used French. They were Catholics the retain the traditional cultural traits related social groups in France. But they were the first French group to be submerged by Anglo Americans. However, krill doesn't justify these people might this is one of the slippy fucking words ever, many Creoles descendants of French colonials who fled Saintamon gay Haiti for North America's Gulf Coast, when a slave insurrection that we talked about, you know, challenge French authority in Louisiana, the term Creole came to represent children of black or racially mixed parents as well as children of French and Spanish descent with no racial mixing persons of French and Spanish descent in New Orleans and Saint Louis began referring to themselves as Creoles after Louisiana purchase to set. Themselves apart from the Anglo American's moving into the area. Are you confused enough by this word yet because it gets worse? My laptop dictionary gives four different racial definitions for Kriel, it can be one a person of mixed European and black descent, especially in the Caribbean to a descendant of Spanish or other European settlers in the Caribbean or central or South America, three a white descendant of French settlers in Louisiana and other parts of the southern US four Allegra con of above average, height born in the western hemisphere, but with ancestry coming mainly from eastern hemisphere, specifically either Ethiopia Somalia, but not Madagascar who's fought of unicorns, but doesn't actually own one. Because why the fuck not? Of course, I was made of that last one. But the real definition is ridiculous. The same word commute is a person of mixture paean and black descent or a white descendant of French settlers, probably living in Louisiana, but not necessarily living in Louisiana all much other meetings. Back in Madame. They'll fiends day krill was used to refer to early Louisiana Collins, a French descent who had been born in Louisiana and were thus native to the territory compared to new immigrants from France or elsewhere, and and then to make it even more confusing. There's the Cajun situation Cajun versus Creel as to confuse Creoles with Cajun's all the time because frankly, it's very fucking easy to do. And no one outside of Louisiana for the most part gives us shit Cajuns and Creoles are both people of French descent. The two groups just arrived in Louisiana in different ways. While the Creoles are a little bit more native. Well, little their native to Louisiana again for the most part. He's Cajuns are the ethnic group that began in eastern Canada. Those French settlers who form that colony of Acadia lasted from sixty four to seventeen thirteen we've talked about it before Katie included, the maritime provinces parts of Quebec even parts of Maine. These are the people that were we talked about earlier that were kicked out of Acadia by the British in the mid eighteenth century when they refused to bow down to a new crown and they ended up. Exile down to Louisiana because they thought it was still controlled by the French so many came into Louisiana that a large section of southern Louisiana is known as a Katyusha a French Louisiana region that comprises twenty two of Louisiana sixty four parishes, which are like their counties against sorry. I know those a long tangent again Madam del fiends day Creel used to refer to early Louisiana. Colonists of French descent. My got such a good example of how confusing our language can truly be communication can be so challenging because sometimes what you think word means is different than what the person, you're speaking. With thinks that words means sometimes communication is challenging because the actual definition of the word in question is constantly evolving. And at times contradictory in this word to me represents today's episode is well, if this was an especially confusing sub to research, I think we got it. I think we got it. But it was tough because there are so many varying accounts all over the place about what actually happened the dates and the names get mixed around and tossed around and. Oh and change. And there's four different accounts of what this person's suppose you did in eight different accounts with that person's vote. He did. So that's why sometimes on the updates. You know, you guys send in some issues, which are awesome. But we don't read them all because a lot of times. It's just an alternative, you know, example of what the history might have been and we just happen to go with a different one. Oh, man. Why can't history before and perfect? Okay. Now back to the subject of the suck. So what was life like for a French krill named Madame Delphine with imported furniture wines books and clothes white Creoles were immersed in a completely French atmosphere in America, it's all fancy and elegantly European should very fancy life in in all likelihood, we're all virtually positive of that white Creoles clung to their individualistic way of life frowned upon intermarriage with Anglo Americans and others refuse to learn English resentful and contemptuous of Protestants, they can sue them irreligious and wicked. They really didn't care for voodoo and hoodoo we're going to find out later Creoles generally succeeded remaining separate in the rural sections, but they steadily lost ground in New Orleans. Eighteen o three. There were seven Creoles to every Anglo-American New Orleans, but these figures dwindled to two one by eighteen thirty Anglo Americans reacted by disliking Creoles with equal enthusiasm gradually New Orleans became not one city, but to canal street split them apart dividing the old Creole city from the uptown section where the other Americans quickly settled. Okay. Lot of context now. Now back to the timeline in eighteen o to France, regains control of Louisiana. So Lowery is born into Spanish Louisiana, which then switches to French Louisiana and h no two, and then becomes a US territory age, you know, three because France didn't plan on keeping Louisiana because France is now run by Napoleon Bonaparte who was we know needed the money to finance his wars in Europe as we just learned a few weeks ago in that suck on the Polian sold Louisiana to the US and president Thomas Jefferson now that we've gone through all the versions of Louisiana the existed in lotteries life. Let's get to her actual life as best. We can right after a word from today's sponsor. Time suck is brought to you today by away travel away offers high quality luggage at a much lower price by cutting out the middleman selling directly to you. You can choose from nine colors and four different sizes to carry on the bigger carry on both of which are complying with all major US airlines, the medium or the large all suitcases are made with premium German polycarbonate which is lightweight unrivalled in strength and impact resistance and the three hundred and sixty degrees spinner wheels guarantee, a smooth ride a best of all both sizes of the carry on or able to charge anything that's powered by USB court and thanks for the lifetime warranty. If anything breaks away, we'll fix or replace it try to one hundred days, and if any point you decide is not for you return it for a full refund. No questions asked avenues in my way. 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Suck use promo code times in checkout. That's a way travel dot com slash time. Suck use the promo code time suck for twenty dollars off a suitcase discount link in the episode description sponsor button in the time so gap now it's bounce on over seventeen eighty seven most likely year of Madame del fiends birth Marie del phen- McCarty was born in New Orleans as her original maiden name and most accounts do claims she was born March nine. Eighteenth seventeenth eighty seven is one of five children both of her parents were wealthy and well established leave only members of the New Orleans European Creole community slave ownership at that time was very widespread and was seen as a sign of wealth. As like a status side will look into that deeper, but the, but the gist was that the more slaves one owned, the more powerful and prestigious they were the culture of New Orleans at the time was a culture engulfed in the slave trade. Many of the whites without slaves wanted them and many people regardless of needing help around their home or not which is owned like one slave just for the status. It brought house. How strange is that reality that at one time not that long ago in this country people were buying other people other meats sacks for the same reason. A lot of people today get a new iphone or put an pool to impress their friends and neighbors keeping up with the Joneses meant sometimes buying other people who may have actually been named the Joneses not that long ago. Crazy Creole Delfi Creel mother. Now just wants to kill the time was Maria. Gene, leoville also known as the widow Lecompte as Louis ABI McCarthy was her second husband came from a very wealthy French family with deep ties to the French aristocracy. They can even be traced back to the emperor Napoleon Delphine. Father was a Louis Barthelemy the day. Mccarthy originally Chevrolet DA McCarthy a night in the service of the king descended from a long line of French military officers from very prominent Irish family sound prominent right that lawless fanciest names, you know, it's not like her parents were named Doug and Becky hilarious. My name is muddy data FEMA coattail. These are my parents dog in back. The McCarthy's were krill family distinction in New Orleans and the descendants of the two pioneers who brought the name to Louisiana are numerous today. Among the first families of that state. The McCarthy's originally McCarthy's were ancient Irish folks, one of whom Bartholomew was. Yeah. Captain an Irish Regiment of aber mal fled his native Ireland France to escape the political and religious tyranny of the English kings of that time, he married a woman whose name seems to be forgotten history than the other. They had five kids to of Bartholomew's sons, John jocks and Bartholomew. Danielle democarcy migrated together to Louisiana and seventeen thirty two as French colonial and the and the officers and Creole McCarty line began a Jean-Jacques became a Knight of the order of Saint Louis Bartholomew. Daniel was Madame del fiends grandfather. So yeah. So she got an impressive lineage the first thirteen years Adelphia's childhood between seventeen eighty seven and eighteen hundred are not well documented, but is it was a bummer, right? We don't we don't have any early stories. About are pushing another kid into a well or coming home from playing out in the swamp one day covered in blood with a knife in her hand, claiming not to know where she's been the past few hours, you know on the same day. A playmate goes missing forever. There's no stories of her parents, catching her skin and a family pet alive will merely humming. Some church hymns of. No nothing to point to and be like a hoc-. She had to torture. Those poor people when she got older she was clearly a psychopath. If Dell seen did commit weird cruel shady acts as a kid. We don't know about based on her family being a noted krill family of the area. She was most likely raised in luxury and comfort and did her best not to be, you know, considered improper for young lady, you high society as a daughter, well, bred Creole families should have been taught. Reading writes, the bulk of her education, probably would have consisted of music, art lessons. Etiquette should have learned the art of running a household from her mother to speak a bit more towards dolphins family status. Her aunt Marie. Stay Eleanor day. Mccarthy was married to Esteban Rodriguez middle the governor of the Spanish American provinces, Louisiana and Florida during seventeen eighty five to seventy ninety one kind of a big deal and her cousin a Guston day. Mccarthy would go on to become the mayor of New Orleans from eighteen fifteen to eighteen twenty also kind of. Deal. She was a lady of high society, her family was one of the most, you know, high status families and all of New Orleans. She was raised to be a socialite debutante. And and basically she and her family were about the closest thing to American aristocrats. We've ever had Delfi was most likely katelyn pampered like others raised by slave owners her and her families lives intertwined with the lives of the people. They bought and sold there were rumors that dolphins father slept with aka raped as be honest, some of his slaves, and he kept a black mistress some later point towards del fiends father sexual relationship with his slaves as a possible motivation for the cruel thing, she was opposed due to her slaves later her life, right? Like did. She blame her slaves or slaves in general, I guess for soiling her father's reputation. Did she blame a slave woman for for harming her father's relationship with her mother? Did you experience a lot of behind the scenes emotional turmoil? Lost a history who's related to slavery. Somehow is that why she may have cruelly tortured people in her New Orleans now. Now haunted. You know, abode all these years later love, you know, or many years later, we don't know we don't know, we do know Delfin was raised around a lot of slavery. Would you could say about virtually anyone living in Louisiana that time, but not everyone at that time was actually raised on a plantation like Delfin was in seventeen seventy one sixteen years before her birth? Her family became southern plantation owners is that year Delfin grandparents Francois, Helene Pellegrin and Bartholomew Daniel day McCarthy, they were gifted a plantation. We think this happened in seventeen seventy one several genealogy sides say that Bartholomee died in seventeen sixty four but those sites and my experience not entirely accurate. Not accurate news motions. I would like and some old Louisiana court records from nineteen forty one site and early twentieth century, Louisiana. Judge historian Judge Charles Geir as saying that Delfin grandfather was the tutor of the children of a man named Jean Baptiste Caesar Lieber tone. And gene was murdered by a petted and pampered slave that's quote in his will apparently he passed his plantation down to Barth automate Daniel McCarthy who received it in seventeen seventy one I'm gonna go with the court record. And how fucked up is the petted and pampered description, by the way my God. Yes. And that was written by someone back in the later eighteenth century was incredibly pro slavery and insanely abusive. That's why can't Pam with him. Call Nelia the slightest bit of pampering pet him. They will kill you constant beatings are required. For the safety of everyone vary integrity of southern society. There's no disagreement amongst historians about whether or not Delfi was raised by New Orleans area plantation owners that we know for sure. She would grope around injustices and violence of American plantation slavery, typically, far more violent and demeaning than American how slavery guest if you will make no mistake, also every was bad. But some slaves were treated far worse than others. And usually the worst treated slaves were plantations likes a March twenty six eighteen hundred Delfin gets married for the first time. And if you're good at math Emmys, she had just turned thirteen years old. He. Hey, had our thirteenth birthday had a party on the nineteenth. And then was laying naked under the body of her new, you know, naked and not thirteen-year-old full grown husband. You know, just a short time later now to be fair, you will find a fair amount of disagreement on the on the web about this some sources as she was born in seventeen seventy five I I don't believe though sources, and and again, this was super frustrated in that regard while she to me, and many others is incredibly interesting. Historical figure noted by prefer historian. You know has actually written like a like a real definitive biography about her. And I think part of the reason is that a lot of the info about her is inconsistent and hard to feel certain about and when she was growing up. Nobody knew that she would become an incredibly interesting historical figure the deed. She became infamous four happened much later in her life. So, you know, no, one to write that shit down early on seen pictures of religious tombstone, a website called find a grave that has been my experience pretty accurate of used it to verify a lot of victims ages and death dates, you know, in previous cry. Sucks and the name and dates it gives have consistently lined up with the name and dates I've been able to find other sources, and according to this side, she was born in seventeen eighty seven tombstone picture. They have for her shows were death date. But not a birthday. I know sometimes I go into too much detail this type of shit, but I just wanted to know that we work hard. Not to bullshit you with information. And unfortunately, that's not the norm. I wish I wish that came from my sources more often, you know, just an occasional. Hey, we think this is what happened? We don't know for sure we did our best. Anyways, it appears that she really did get married to thirteen the vast majority of the most reputable sources seem to insist this and and back at the turn of the nineteenth century, it actually made more sense for a woman to get married when she was thirteen than it did for women to get married at twenty five which is if you trust the other date of her birth, which would actually considered pretty undesirable the average age of marriage was closer to twenty that time but twenty five that was ancient right for a first marriage by like people would wonder what was wrong with her. Right. Have been old may to twenty-five already lost over ten years of prime baby making time. Now, what's what's going on with their? Why didn't they wanted any man want? This one's bride. Twenty five year old bride was likely. A widow who already had a few kids around talk about different times during the nineteenth century, the age of consent in the United States, actually, very between ten and sixteen depending on the state and the year ten as the father of an eleven year old daughter that is so deeply disturbing to me and people say today kids around to fast fuck outta here. Not compared to eighteen hundred Louisiana. You know, you just call your fifteen year old getting drunk who gives a shit. Does. Your fifteen year old have a five year old with a forty year old or the already a widow if so then. Yeah, then they're grown up pretty fast. If not then they're they're not nearly as fast as so many kids who've run up quickly before them, my son's thirteen. I can't imagine Cuyler get married either. His wife would have to have a lot of patience for his relentless mean. References. That'd be cool with the dude who doesn't play with stuffed animals, you know, anymore. But also won't let us get rid of them. The marriage ceremony was held at the Saint Louis cathedral by the first Bishop of the diocese of Louisiana. The marriage certificate was signed by celebrated Spanish priests Antonio day sedalia a man whose ghost is said to walk an alley now named for him which runs alongside of New Orleans cathedral that Allie pair antwon alley in a restaurant in the city's historic. French quarter are named after this, dude. And an after the ceremony the priest allegedly high five Delfin husband and then just leaned in real close. And just said now get them in. I get I get it. I like him even younger than that myself. But don't only the boys only. Sweet sexy innocent little fuck, boys. Sorry, not sorry. No. That's messed up based on. How many cases have priest? Pedophilia of read about the past few decades. I can only imagine the amount of Catholic molestation that was going on back in parishes. That time. Delvina husband was described in this document as Kaba gyro day, LA Royal de Carlos intendant of the provinces a native of the community of red no Galicia Spain and the legitimate son of lordship, Don Jose Antonio Lopez e and gala e Dona Ana Fernandez de LA daughter of Donna Francis. Kabar DCFS fucking get out of here with all those titles Jesus. Like seventy five words. Welcome to. I don't know. Why started going Scandinavian? His name is Don Ramon Lopez history is not clear as to how much older he was some research does say he was laced in his fifties. When they got married fucking gross. Some thirteen year old sent off to a wedding bed with grandpa. Hopefully, this is not correct. And he was much younger. But you know, what? Even if he was half that age if he's twenty five still pretty gross evening half of that. If he was like thirteen all, it's all pretty gross Mademoiselle, faints, first marriage scandalous, but actually not for age related reasons. Her high ranking military officer husband married this thirteen-year-old girl without the consent of the king of Spain. Which was a big no no that went against governmental protocol thirteen year old vagina all well and good. But you have to get the king's permission before you touch it. Maybe he wanted to lean in say some weird creepy shit. Just tell me later, what is like Mr. mopus, I won't detail when you've taken a charity quickly right down every moment of the encounter. On how new book with the others. Oh, my priest and I like to read it together at night. I'm sure there's other reasons for the king needing to give him permission. Actually, I'm not sure shit was super weird and gross back then, but I hope so. Don, Ramon was stripped of his office or to return to the Spanish courts for marrying without the king's permission. Maybe here again, you count very fucking stupid accounts. Here's the possibilities. Neither Asia four or maybe even late eighteen hours three after the American acquisition of the Louisiana territory that we just went over earlier, Don Ramon seemed to have been appointed to the position of consul general for Spain in the territory of Orleans, Bill FINA. Ramon traveled to Spain in eighteen o four varying. Accounts of this trip exists grace king late nineteenth and early twentieth. Century New Orleans, author historian wrote in nineteen twenty one the trip was Lopez military punishment and that Siniora's Delphine Lopez met the Queen who was impressed with MRs Lopez beauty a nineteen thirty six account by Stanley. Arthur who wrote for the encyclopedia Britannica nearly twenty century stated that March twenty six eight zero four Don Ramon Lopez was recalled to Spain to take his place at court as befitting his new position. But that Lopez never arrived in Madrid. Because he died in route in Havana, and all of the accounts seemed to verify that he did die in Cuba on March twenty six eighteen o four Ramon day. Lopez e and Guelleh, and willow is pardoned for his grievous lack of requesting marital permission. He just wanted that thirteen year olds so bad he's pardoned again one Spain gives Louisiana to the United States. And he's granted an important political position in New Orleans. We think and then yes in routes via the American ship. Ulysses the ship runs aground. Ramon dies of heart failure before ever reaching his destination. He's buried in Havana during the voyage Delfi gives birth to a daughter named Marie Borgia. Borja Delvina Lopez e and Guelleh daler Candelaria nicknamed board to bore Kita after Don Ramones grandf- mother Dona friend Cisco, and then Delfin and her daughter returned New Orleans afterwards after Don Ramones debt, they'll feel will be a single mom for four years. Very young single mom roughly seventeen years old presumably. Much of her mother and duties were done by servants since she was known to party down. But there are accounts that, you know, the speak to her adoring and doting on Oliver children. She have several others to her life. You're also gonna find out are later accounts as she gets older issues possibly very abusive to our kids. Okay. So let's look at our next marriage. You know, we're an examined all three remarriages thoroughly because when little is written about someone, you know, basically, the next base thing you can do is to examine the lives. They were intertwined with to at least get some insight into their life. And a fair amount was written about her husband's especially the last two mostly the second this guy. Twenty one year old Delfin remarried on June sixteenth eighteen o eight to amend name Jean Pierre. Paulin blank who is an attorney banker lawmaker slave trader and as you'll see soon pirate Adelphia John Blunk would have four children together who were born in the residence at four nine Royal street. Currently idea Mannheim antiques in New Orleans occupies at. Address if you wanna stop in check it out. What is such a fun city that way rare for America place with the residents of someone who lived a few hundred years ago is still around and use today. I mean, I know in Europe, you know, place like that or a dime a dozen, but pretty special still on the side of the Pont del phen-. Gent's eldest daughter Marie Louise zone. Their other three children's names were John Lewis. No, yeah. John louis. Leonard Lowery is the name. He would end up with later. Louis. Marie law blank. And Marie Louis. Pauline blunk. Delfin Laurie's mother Marie John died of natural causes the year before in February twenty six h no seven and left. Her daughter thirty three thousand dollars that will become her dowry. In addition to whatever actually was technically thirty three thousand and seventy dollars, which is a lot of money in that time. In addition to whatever accumulation of slaves Blunk manage on his own. He was also gifted twenty-six more slaves by dolphins father at the time for wedding. Also in eighteen zero eight gene blank was gifted his first plantation so strange to me to be gifted actual people at wedding. It's such a different time it sometimes feels like a completely different world little Baxter. Mr. blank who sounds like a French clue character? It was Mr. blank in the foyer with a both heen Hamma. Gene block came to New Orleans ain't zero three. And luckily for today's tale, we know quite a bit about Jean's known in some circles as the godfather of the modern carnival, America's first Carney. If you will traveling carnivals did exist in France in some form for several years. But nothing substantial is the guy who apparently put carnivals on the map is credited with the advent of the ring toss balloon dark game must've light of Louisiana children. And then children across the world is the first figure out you could trick fathers into spending the equivalent of two hundred dollars twenty five dollars stuffed animal for their daughter or girlfriend or wife. He made a fucking fortune, and he would and it would be this Carney money that would lead to the dark legend of Madame del Fien or okay, he wasn't a Carney. But he did invent elephant. No, he didn't we do know a lot about him. No, we do Jean-Pierre signature actually appears on the original copy of the constitution of the state of Louisiana data January twenty second eighteen twelve is display to the historic New Orleans collection. Pretty cool. You don't get to do that. When you're Carney. Some high-society shits speaks to delphin social status. And this is her second husband. You'll get a second husband of that stature unless you yourself amongst the upper crust of the social elite and pretty hot. She was supposed very tractive. Apparently, her beauty had not totally faded by the time. She was ancient age of twenty one when del fiends first marriage could be or wild elephants. First marriage can be described brief and gross her. Second marriage really speaks to how important she was in early New Orleans history. As we alluded to earlier nora's was a big deal in the early nineteenth century. It was already one of the biggest cities in the south. It was growing fast who become actually the third largest city in US by eighteen forty before flat lining, population wise between the civil war and the great, depression and Jean-Pierre he had a prominent role in early Orleans history jump block was a successful banker merchant as I said plantation or entrepreneur, lawyer legislator, slave trader and fucking privateer pirate. He may not have worn. I patch or had a parrot named Polly or. Peg leg or carried cool sword swashbuckling or even one time uttered with shaved timbers. You ain't Saint in his scouting lack David Jones locker today. Or maybe he didn't say that. While squint one, I real hard and clamp and his, you know, fuck fucked up teeth down on a corncob pipe billowing smoke is black gunpowder, but he was technically pirate. Delfin second husband actually, played a very important role in saving America's independence from crumbling in the war. Eighteen twelve the first real mention of John Blaha historically him walking off a French frigate called sorrel yacht onto a Louisiana soil Napoleon's right hand, Louisiana man, Pierre Clement Lesot Orla saw also was blocked cousin was on the same ship during that same long trip from France LUSA was Napoleon's appointment to be prefect of the colony after the eighteen oh three transfer from Spain to France, Louisiana territory after the sale to America, this assault character left New Orleans, but Blunk remained behind John blonde. Came to Louisiana fairly rich pretty powerful pretty connected, and he just seemed to do even better New Orleans. He declared himself a citizen Louisiana immediately. And just got right down to local. Politics records show that within the first year of him being a Louisiana. He owns three big ships, including one called citizen. There's quite a bit of evidence. These shifts were very least rented out to privateers to do much pirate ship. He wasn't a pirate in some sense of self. The main trade for Blunk was colloquially called a very dehumanizing term black ivory the fruits of his piracy were slaves along with other valuable items. We found court documents that he was once prosecuted in court for his involvement in the matter of twenty seven thousand pounds of coffee bean stolen from America. So so weird still whatever you want from any of our enemies, including actual people. But you take our coffee. I'll see you in court. You son of a bitch times are so different. Then compared to now in Sony different ways. I mean came out the equivalent now or only direct neighbors now are Canada and Mexico. We along both in pretty well. Right. We never have any real dust ups with Canada and there's immigration tensions of Mexico. But we're not like actively hostile. Them not in ways that we're tolerated two hundred years ago. I mean, you couldn't now drive down to Tijuana. Rob a few banks take a few families of people have their authorities. Chase you to the border then race past the checkpoint and just get high five by bunch of American officers to shows epic man. We're gonna have to have you pay us back for the barricade you broke through through but not the other burqa. Now's there's now. Fuck him. But hours looks like you snatch them some serious pesos. Good job, man. Could you brother you? Yes. Hey, U S. Hey, that's that's kind of a life was like back. Then right are shipping? Merchants. Could ransack the merchants of some other nations ship. And then we as a nation will be like fucking Cooman. Sweet good job. Now is that other nations? Like, hey, not cool. Give that crooks. We can try and court now bro fuck off. Oh, I see. How this I see? That's fine. I was pushed my anger down that eventually it'll boil up we'll declare war you Astles. Slavery was definitely John belongs main trade is methods and tactics were certainly technically illegal. But not only was he not chastised for his profession. He was held in high regard. As privateers often were the New Orleans banks. Look the other way even quietly supported this pirate in the trade in general for the injection of cash flow that came from it, the general public did not ostracize these slave traders, even though as we'll find out soon is technically illegal time, no have to delve into this guy's role in what many might say saved America in eighteen twelve the husband of Madame Delphine heavily involved in the battle New Orleans. The battle of New Orleans would would be a pivotal moment in American history. It was the first major battle of the war. Eighteen twelve I'm sorry. Not I final final final final. I can send people get on their keyboard? No. No. No. No, actually. Yeah. Final. We learned in the Andrew Jackson suck technically it occurred after the war was already over. Kind of the treaty that ended the war actually stipulated. The fighting would stop wants the treaty was ratified which didn't actually app until February eighteen fifteen the British were hoping that when the war ended they would own New Orleans and be able to control trade on the Mississippi blonde. His pirate friends the Lafitte brothers and Madame dolphins. Own family's home would become become some of the deciding factors in the British defeat in this war, if it'd played out differently our world might look very different today. The war eighteen twelve sometimes called the forgotten war. It's importance often underplayed misrepresented because it sandwiched between the revolutionary war and the civil war the war eighteen to kinda Korean war. Right. It sandwich, you know, in between a World War Two and Vietnam. It doesn't get the same press of the war eighteen twelve hadn't been going on been going. Well for the now at eleven Uncle Sam American suffered many defeats the White House has been burned down. Nearly all of the coastline was being blockaded. Americans were also defeated on the Great Lakes only a few ports in New England were still operational. The former British. Navy had affectively made the US an island surrounded by Her Majesty's finest all they really needed for completion of their plan. For victory was control of the Mississippi River, the Mississippi delta. London was confident that Americans would soon surrender to put an end to the fighting. The crown sent in our motto of fifty ships and eleven thousand soldiers sailors marines to capture New Orleans. The our motto was led by, sir. Edmund Parkin ham. He would go ahead to go head to head with American president j Madison's leadership choice General Andrew Jackson. He of the most controversial suck the man who lived two hundred years ago, whose very name still polarize people today as I found out, and I get it. I'm sure something right now like got damaged this guy. Again. I quit listen for a while last time showed up. Why why are we talking about this racist had again, well because you can't rewrite history? That's why actually you can and people do all the time which is fucking ridiculous to me to motionlessly week to me, right? The truth is what it is what good really comes from hiding it or sugar coating it. General Jackson arrived New Orleans December first eighteen fourteen required. It interpreter to communicate with the mainly French-Speaking people who live there fucking krill's Jackson quickly put together and. Opposition forceful of French and Spanish, Creoles, free men of color, slave German. Farmers frontiers men militia actual soldiers shit pirates. The melting pot of early America mixed into one early fighting force Madame Delphine McCarty Blunk was thirty nine when war came to her home, and she directly witnessed some of the fighting. She was pregnant with her fourth child at the time had been married to John Pierre blank for six years. The blocks owned a great deal of property, including their home on Royal street, their townhouse next to the Bank Louisiana regime Pierre worked and he spent their summers of the blonde plantation that was right next to the Dell fiends family plantation on the Mississippi River, not far from New Orleans lot of residences in the area. Would sounds crazy. Even for the wealthy until you remember they didn't have cars back then right to fucking took forever to get across town. Right. When you're getting pulled behind some stupid horse. No, thank you. You know, back then I would have wanted several homes right here in court, Elaine. If I was living here if that meant avoiding a forty five minute horse ride. Jean-pierre did well financially as public member of commerce his greatest source of income came from his above board pirating and smuggling he was a silent partner of two of the most famous of the pirates of the Caribbean. The real ones John and Pierre Lafitte I'd actually never heard of these swashbuckling before the suck. Or if I did have already forgotten about him. I love it. When the exploration of one character leads to getting to know, so many other cool figures hail Nimrod. It had been a legal to import new slaves in the US ever since eighteen. Oh, wait. This is why some of the banks were kind of on the on the hush hush about supporting these guys this law, all though created a highly profitable illegal slave trade market, and that market made Blunk and the Lafitte brothers a lot of money, which then made, you know, Madame Delphine lottery. A lot of money by eighteen fourteen. Jean Lafitte had become public enemy number one in Louisiana. Thanks to a brazenly ignoring the slave trade law because you know, while the banks didn't didn't mind some other people didn't care for. It and then sometimes, you know, took shit like coffee from, you know, the actual Americans that piss people off and his brother Pierre had been caught and incarcerated for this pirating, the Louisiana government sick of this particular pirates and Governor William Clairborne offered a five hundred dollar reward for the capture of John Lafitte. And then check out this pirate move the feet responded by putting out a fifteen hundred dollar reward for the capture of governor Clairborne Touche motherfucker. So fantastic. I'll see you reward. And I'll raise it with bigger bounty on your head. That's like the police shown up and arresting someone only to have that person immediately slip out of their handcuffs arrest that police officer. No, you're arrested. What no you're no, you are you were first sabotage the British were like we love to do. He clearly is not a fan of the governor. I bet we can get him to join our team in this war. The British were all too aware of defeats many ships cannons and very well trained men. They approach the pirate with the rank of captain in the Royal Navy. If he would just join them in their attack of America the feet thought it over and then decided to to work a different angle, he wrote many letters one of which went onto fiends husband revealing what the British had offered to Lafitte. I love me an old time. He let her here's what Lafitte wrote to Madame Delphine. Second husband Jamblangan in eighteen fourteen. It's dated for September eighteen fourteen. So though proscribed by my country. I will never let slip. And you of serving her or approving that she has never ceased to be dear to me prescribe. By the way, means condemned denounced or forbidden, and I don't add that out of being patronizing in assuming that you dear times Dono to means. I added because I did not meant is he just misspelled prescribed to be prescribed medicine was like what the fuck. How is how is his doctor country prescribed him? What what have they prescribed you do? Now. They've condemned him back to the letter of this. You'll see here convincing proof yesterday. The third of September there appeared here under a flag of truce a boat coming from an English Brig at anchor about two leagues from the past. Mr. nNcholas luckier, a British officer of high rank delivered me the following papers to directed to me it proclamation and the admirals instructions to that officer all here with enclosed you will see from their contents advantages. I might have to ride from that kind of association. I may have aided the parliament of duties. Of the custom house, but I have never ceased to be a good citizen and all the offense. I have committed. I was forced to buy certain vices in our loss. I love his pirate. Rationalization? This is what I hear him saying Louis is I know I know we've had our differences shit. You guys. You know, you have your laws and whatnot. But to be totally honest. I don't listen. I don't about those laws. Right. Only real. I chose not to follow those laws, and that's how I live my best life. But check this shit out. I'm proud to be an American. No that and overall other than the laws, I continually broke because if I want to be totally honest, I had to those laws are super fucked up, and they're kind of hurt my business. If you feel me so really is your fault to make dumb laws. I had to break to be a good American. 'cause like I'm like a straight a student when it comes to protecting the red white and blue that's to me what he's saying. Backed letter says in short, sir, I make the deposit. Tori of the secret on which perhaps depends the tranquility of our country, please to make such use of it as your judgments may direct dude with confidence. So, you know, you know, bro. You gotta do you. But if you guys blow me off, I wouldn't you know, because we both know with my hope the British are going to utterly mother. Fuck you and your whole world. So you know, you do what you feel is right for you. I may expatriate on this proof of patriotism, expatiates means to speak or write at length or in detail. I didn't know that one either. But I let the facts speak for self I presume, however to hope that such proceedings may obtain amelioration, the act of making something better really know that one of the situation of my unhappy brother with which view I recommend him particularly to your influence now I read that as bro. I'm a patriot. You know that that's the main reason I wanna help. However, my brother is imprisoned. And I would like to think if I help you out, you know, you can ameliorate the fuck out of his ass and get him out of that cell. You you feel me I'll help Beulah my brother go. All right. Then he keeps writing it is in the bosom of a just man of a true Merican endowed. We all qualities that on it in society that I think I'm depositing the interest of our common country and particularly concerns myself, our enemies have endeavoured to work on me by a motive which. Which few men would have resisted they represented to be a brother and items brother, who is to me, very DEA who's deliverer. I might become an I declined the proposal. Well, persuaded of his innocence. I am free from pretension as to the issue of a trial. But he is sick and not in a place where he can receive the assistance. His state requires. I recommend him to you in the name of humanity. Listen, John, blah, bro. Please British told me they're gonna bust. My brother the fuck out. However that may take a while and he's six so I'm have a lot of time. You know what I'm saying? So how about you take care of him? And I take care of you. As to the fact of truce, I have done with regard to its everything that prudence suggests to me at that time, I have asked fifteen days to determine assign such plausible pretext that I hope that term. We'll be granted. I am waiting for the British officers answer and for yours to this be so good to assist me with your judicious counsellor. And so. A weighty in a fair. I have the honour to salute you zone Lafite. Out of all the people. He could ride this letter. He writes Mademoiselle fiends husband. He's writing, you know, essentially as to who he should help fight the British or the Americans and Jean blank, we can safely assume advises him to side with America because that's exactly what he does the shocked governor Clairborne he thought this was a trick just to facilitate the escape of the Lafitte, brother. It was not it can be argued that his help actually turned the battle in the war into America's good fortune had met him. They'll scenes husband advised him differently. The map at US look very differently today or theoretically, not exist at all if you play different scenarios, but governor Clairborne he almost ruined everything. He still wasn't convinced that Lafitte the man who put a price on his head earlier was earnest and his offer of aid, and he ordered an attack defeats pirate headquarters. Luckily, the governor's men were no match for the feats men. And then when general Jackson heard about this not happy with the governor's decision. He reached out to this pilot was like, oh before you go to the British for governor Claiborne, FOX itself for all of us. Let's talk. Delvina husband continues to lobby the New Orleans government, take the fees help. And then general Jackson, you know, ends up meeting this pirate on Royal street with Laffite, you know, where he accepts the pirates offers that were meets with Laffite gives me where accepts the pirates offer to help as fate would have it the place chosen chosen for the final. Battleground is the childhood home of Madame Delphine. The McCarty plantation is just a short distance down the river from New Orleans and was then owned operated by dolphins. Cousin? Andrew Jackson would dig in and make stand there. Make his stand there that would later help him catapult him to the presence because it was a very successful stint. So Jackson's ragtag army brought Lafitte cannons ashore pointed in towards the sea. The British navy attacked hard over a hundred cannon struck the McCarty plantation in the first ten minutes of fighting. But the British aim was thankfully off and then the pirate led American cannons wreaked havoc on the British fleet. Lafitte men were battle hardened soldiers. And they're helping all the difference. The British suffered almost twenty five hundred casualties compared to just a handful of Americans the British had to retreat and their leaders are Edmund Parkin ham was killed this. Unexpected loss was a defining and unifying moment in the history of the United States. The US had the collective will to come together and defense of their newly pen constitution and their hard-fought independence was one again. Andrew Jackson JAL feet. Both went onto become famous, gene. Block. However, ended up being relegated to being mostly known as the second husband of Madame del Fien pretty cool lupita history there also for a little closure on this story line here. Lafitte the pirate. Did earn a pardon for that brother and some other pirates who had been incarcerated by governor Clairborne they'd bounce on over to the waters outside of Galveston island after the war outside of Texas there and build an army of pirates they legitimately had an army pirates. The brothers would also work as spies for Spain during Mexico's war of independence, and then Jean Lafitte is believed to have died after getting wounded in battle in eighteen twenty three. Okay. Last point Dell fans. Tailfins life with Blunk. Although there aren't too many sources to corroborate this. It would seem she became, you know, fell into possession of a lot of rare and illegal items and substances from his privateer, Ian. And and that made her a lot of money is reported to have loved to host parties, increasingly lavish parties at the block mansion, and you know, probably hasn't pretty cool party favors. Probably the best damn sugar and coffee, those pirates could steal and so far. Yeah. So far in the sucks seems like she lived a lavish pampered in scandal free life in the sense that yeah, what she did was not or what her husband did. There was not necessarily moral, obviously, but you know, benefited greatly and no nobody locally cared. So so far, no no dark sinister. Anything is associated with Madame Delphine. The only real tough breaks, you seem to have as being a child, right? In eighteen sixteen Jean-Pierre block dies would we Delfi? And again, this time at the age of twenty nine some sources say he died in eighteen some sources say he didn't die but fled and abandoned phen-. No one seems to know how he died the. Probably that they'll fiend spent the next twelve years, a single mother, a very rich, very powerful single mother. We have almost no records of how she lived her life during this period. We don't know what you thought or what you talked about. We do have one court record from eighteen nineteen in July eighteen nineteen court records show that Madame dill phen- did something that initially doesn't seem like it matches up very well with the kind of person. You know, she would become infamous for being someone who tortured and killed slaves. The records of parish court show that Marie Delfin McCarty. Widow of the late. John blank presented in a man's patient petition to the court noted that she intended to emancipate her male slave named Jean Louis who is upwards of fifty years of age she declared that Jean Louis was all had always lead. An honest conduct was his life had not run away had not committed any crime Mademoiselle Fien asked a court to order that the notices prescribed by lobby published in the usual place in form in order to enable her to emancipate her slave. And again, this seems like a nice thing to do at first right at least nice for the times, a pro possibly and probably not this could have in fact been pretty cruel act, sometimes slave owners would emancipate or free elderly slaves. So they just didn't have to provide for them in their senior years, which most plantation slave owners actually did do. But sometimes when when these these slaves were unable to keep working for them. They would quote unquote, free some poor destitute. Crippled senior leave them elderly often disabled without a penny to their name to somehow fend for themselves and their last year's pretty fucked up. I don't know if this is what Madam del fiend did. But it's worth pointing out on January twenty eighth eighteen twenty eight now forty year old Delfi Mary's again, her third and final husband the man who made her Madame Delphine Lowery was Dr Leonard Louis Nicolas lottery. Dr Louis is said in virtually all the sources to be significantly younger than Delfin. But none of the sources seem to know his actual age. I'm confident he's probably a lot older than thirteen though how we're going to be was flipped around. And he was thirteen that he described as a nondescript man with a hint of darkness about him. Dr Lori grew up in France, who's a mediocre medical student actually dental student who venture. Graduated from dental school in to loose after graduation, a of repaired immigrate to Louisiana, and at that time, which is so interesting to me dentists and doctors were interchangeable like you you could go to one school to become just the doctor of all things medical. I believe we learned that in the the doc Holliday suck. He left France on a boat called the fanny on December eight twenty four arrived in New Orleans February thirteenth eighteen twenty five. One month average, arrival Dr Lori sought to establish a medical practice New Orleans. He didn't started what some describe is a successful medical practice. Others ascribe as moderately successful. At the time. There was virtually zero regulation medicine, and it was as I said super common from a meta for medical professionals just to skip from field to field, which was cracks me up. You know, you could be a dentist and a surgeon same thing one document shows that Lowery build a man for making a potion to treat a six slave historical details like this, actually. I've helped fueled the rumors that lottery would later medically experiment in horrific ways, you know, on the slaves. He owned with Madame Lowery, you know, that he going into evil shit like cut him open or sell their mouth shut. Also, fueling the legend, the Dr Lori medically experiment on his slaves is the reality. The doctors did that quite often. Here's one of many examples of this which I feel like is important context for our story today in eighteen ninety four the journal of the American Medical Association announced it for the first time in American history. A public statue had been erected to the memory of a member of the medical profession j Marion SIMS I unveiled in Bryant park in New York City that monument board inscription celebrating a physician, whose brilliant achievements. Carried the fame of American surgery throughout the civilized world. Sims had designed the vaginal specula- m- developing a treatment for Vesic vaginal fistula of v f and he'd built. Such successful medical career promoting VF repair that he would later be dubbed, the father of modern gynecology. I mean, pretty cool. Right. Not exactly this Vivey treatment. He developed came as the result of a lot of terrible vaginal experiments. He performed on African American slaves and doctors did that shell the time. And last year two thousand eighteen New York City's public design commission voted unanimously to remove his statue. All right. So there is that. Okay. Now, let's lighten tobacco lighten it up a bit this this next detail about Dr Lori is ridiculous upon arriving in the US. Dr Lori sent a letter to the editor of the courier announcing the following to establish his medical practice in that city and keep in mind, just for extra comedy that you know, technically is a dentist. He he writes. I pray you to announce and you'll next number that a French physician has just arrived in the city who is acquainted with the means lately discovered in France of destroying hunches the. Individuals submitted to the operations required ceases deformity, gradually diminish an after a treatment longer or shorter. According to the extent of the deformity, the body resumes its natural forms that discovery has met with the greatest success in France. And everything induces the belief that it will have the same result in this country early nineteenth century when Dennis or working on hunchback's whiskey. Saw. I just love it overdue. I let me get a good little those choppers. Okay. Allow you laying around you hunt. You bit. Oh, hey, you got quite a hunch there could I conducted take that down right after a POS teeth. You know what I'm out it? Well, I'm gonna check your circulation for that. I I could try to make sure you're not pregnant, you know, Jake pulse. Kentucky about from potions various ailments of the stomach and such. And then let's get you some new eyeglasses and how much leeann the counter-bid and talk about your feelings, Dr one stop shop. That's what they called me whiskey. Solid dentist. Oh, God horseback. By the end of eighteen twenty eight they'll fiend has her first child with Dr Lori Jean-Louis her six child overall of keeping score. An individ-. Del phen- sells the family plantation and purchases. Lots for the construction of a new house on September twelfth eighteen thirty one upon this land. Edmonds Sonia DA Forsa constructed a magnificent mansion the French quarter at eleven forty Royal street, boom, we've made it took us a while had to go through a lot of how to Wade through a lot of history to get here. But now, we're at the current address of the original house of horse. No other buildings stood there before its construction the house that sits today is not the original structure, but obviously built on the same lot the buildings. We see today is a much larger version of the original this all brings us to the dark side of Madam Laurie lottery. House Laurie mansions one of the most famous homes in New Orleans if not in the entirety of the United States, the original lottery home was magnificent two story Creole style structure with an interior courtyard like a lot of New Orleans homes. How would your fucking beautiful if you ever walk around do a lot of peeking through gates, not even kidding in the French quarter sealed his cooler courtyards in. Inside the blocks at several balconies to allow air to circulate throughout the house. They decorated opulent Lii and filled the property with gorgeous furniture and the finest art the couple regularly threw lavish parties and were irregular feature in the society pages of the local paper. So all we may know a lot about we may not know excuse me. We don't know a lot about our thoughts is we do have historical documentation that she liked to party not gonna let six kids stop that. Like all public lives. The attention was a double edged sword in the case of Dell FINA Louis or Lewis. It would swing back to cut their heads off. Right. By the end of eighteen thirty two just a year after moving in the marriage had began to sour and the two hill but separated, so maybe it's the location. That's haunted. You know, nothing. Nothing weird is written about her until she moves here by Tober of eighteen thirty two rumors of the lottery, strange slave abuse begins to circulate or begin to circulate around New Orleans. Also in the fall of eighteen thirty two delphin, and Dr Lori petitioned the court to free one another of a two free. Excuse me to free another one of their slaves. Kind guest your or more cruelty? I guess gesture. I'm immense. Say gesture on November sixteen to eighteen thirty two Delfi and petitions for from four Jesus in a fish oil separation from Lou is the charge was Lewis was beaten her. Remember, these French wants to Lewis comes up Louis Louis if I go back and forth. It's the same dude. Her historians disagree as to whether or not this abuse actually happened. They'll FINA system that the abuse was ongoing. Here's a foreign statement from her Representative in court on the twenty six Tober last in the presence of many witnesses the said Louis Alary went so far as to not only ill-treat her, but was to beat and wound her in the most outrageous and brutish manner wherefore the plaintiff praise your honor to authorize her to sue her said husband for a separation from bed and board and Thenceforth to grant her decreed that they be separated from bed and board to authorize her to live separately from her said husband, so. You know, probably probably was being this makes me think that this new guy did beat her. She didn't seem to be one to make you know, a fictional claims. There's no record of her doing this with either one of her first husband's. So that's interesting to me as I as I think about what goes on coming up. This of course, is not usually brought up in a folklore of the subject. But yeah, definitely has questions the narrative, right? One question is edge questions. One question is were there was there any correlation between the freemen of the slave and Delfin cessation separate from her husband, you know, in some accounts. Both these events happened on the same day. Did they'll Fain try and intervene on this particular slaves behalf? You know, was the doctor the sadists and Madame lottery. One of his victims was this man, beaten, this other slaves, so terribly that, you know, Delfin thought that she had to free this person. We may never know. But again, it's it is interesting that there were no rumors of ill-treatment between Madame lottery and her slave during her first two marriages, no rumors of her ever mistreating slaves prior to Dr lottery, and then the rumors start around the same time. She takes her husband to court for spousal abuse by she frees a slave when she when she does that all makes you wonder what was really going on after the official separation Delfin remained to the Royal street address. Her. Her husband is still comes and goes from this place, they're separated, but not like entirely apart. You know, we'll see later this really infamous fire that happens. He was at the residence when all the shit went down that led to their legend. Yeah. So okay, we're gonna we're gonna move forward. Chronologically here a little more in a bit. But we're going to detour into some voodoo who do context that adds to her legend, and and we're going to stay in the same period for quite some time. So how about we hop on out of today's time suck time line? Good job soldier made it back. Ben. Right now, we're going to get to some some gruesome stories accounts of the story, the this pillar of New Orleans horror lore, trillion or stand. Why the accounts of Delfi murder so graphic, and frankly, so strange we have to understand things about voter and hoodoo and and a good way to get into New Orleans voodoo hoodoo is to introduce an important historical contemporary of del fiends, Marie Lavoro the voodoo Queen of New Orleans if you've ever been there, they all kinds of stuff dedicated her certainly a future times that candidate Marie Catherine Lavoro again known as voodoo Queen of New Orleans born in New Orleans September tenth eighteen o one. Just thirteen years. I guess fourteen years after Madame dill Fien, she was the illegitimate daughter of a Freeman of color and Creel mother her connection with Delfin, not well documented, however, it is referencing some dark New Orleans folklore, which I think has to have added to the dark legend of Madame Delphine one story stems from New Orleans painter Ricardo. Who's Daniel locally famous for his paintings of Madame lottery and the devil baby. Baby cap capitalized, it's not just any random, Debbie to the devil. Baby. He stated in an interview some New Orleans natives claimed ill phen-, and Dr Lori were associated with the actual devil, baby. They spawn of Satan, this was supposedly a deformed or insane child rumored to be the spawn of a mortal woman and a demon possibly Satan himself. So, you know, it's probably for sure true. I did look up some devil baby stats, and according to the national society of unquestionable facts based in Washington, DC, six point seven devil babies are born each and every year in Louisiana loan. Seventy five percent of them appear evil did their twenty five percent or mostly evil hundred percent of them grow to be circus clowns. So there are some facts I made up, but of course, there's not a real devil baby. But a lot of people have believed there was some people still do they think Madame Delphine in Nevada Queen we're really in league with Satan and had something to do with bringing a devil baby into this. Plane of existence legend states that the baby was found or or conjured somehow by the Queen and then given to phen- and her husband raise some would claim to the devil. Baby was delta godchild weird story detail right to devote acquaint found the devil baby. But gave it to Madame Delphine to race. Why didn't you want? I'm guessing della BBB hard hard kid race, right? Go clean your room up bitch. I'm devil. I'll clean your fucking clock. When you fall tonight. If you need me, I wanna be out, you know, the back skin some cats until I feel like stopping. And a devil baby skin. Catch actually actually reminds me that I need to talk real quick about today's final sponsor one. Last sponsor time suck is brought to you today by Ed campers pet sickles at Kemper the maker of pet cycles and pet kebabs cat and dog heads mostly cat heads violently cut off in jammed on sticks. And then either grilled or frozen for your culinary pleasure. Will Ed has a new product just in time for some birthday. Parties can't kick pops. Oh, man. Amid Kemper and. I want you to listen to me talk about cat K pups. If you do not, listen, there's a real good chance, you're gonna get more samples Cohen and all star thinking about mother and your Linda put a fucking stick. Any anyway, my khaki pops or cat heads that had been baked into delicious cakes. And then those cut had cakes who've been pushed under sticks, and I've carved myself for your, dining pleasure. No seasoning. No secret Spicer's. No gimmicks. Just delicious count, hats, delicious, cakes and sticks. Carved while having thoughts of cutting so Ernie with Mordor with each dick. You'll get a free extra day to not be my very long people to kill list to or plead Goto Zappala dot I am so fucking filled with rage that of course, is not today sponsor, we're almost bunch that was just a little not to my interpretation of Ed camper from January suck if your new listener. Yeah. Yeah. I missed mocking that site Beth no more of that kind of nonsense. They we had enough war. We had enough horror with Madame del famous get back to New Orleans and voodoo and I bought passed out. That's tough character to do for a long time. It's easy to write that stuff. But then we started in the voice. Nobody all buddy skews us water drink. Off Mike like a professional. Okay, the unsubstantiated. But certainly interesting rumor of Madame LA LA La Rue raising a devil, baby. She got from voodoo queens, certainly attitude or dark legend ties her to the religion of voodoo and the bloody dark magic of hoodoo if hoodoo voodoo we're actually a big part of Madame Delphine lotteries life, and we don't know for sure that they weren't would explain some of the very specifically gory blood ritual, look and shit. She supposedly did to her slaves for what could have been many years, but more specifically from eighteen thirty one eighteen thirty four. So what is fhu and hoodoo? Well, I I'll do is a word that will forever. Remind me of Reverend Dr Joel motherfucking pays favorite song by God's MAC. I've had this earworm in my head a lot this week. And now, I'm going to infect you. And but mostly though, I'm doing this to infect a Reverend paisley not the one who so far away. Feel the snake? Buy in to in. Switch into Michael McDonald? Now doll remember Hooker? Who every wasn't making McDonald's? Wow. How would he sing that? I can't do it. I can't do it. It's too hard to hard to combine one really distinct. Melody with another very distinct voice, I'm not the one who so far fucking. Thank you for that. One silly guessing you're still playing paying your bills that nine hundred ninety nine Diddy his everything about that. Like, I do some yards a song twenty five years ago royalty checks pay for their life the rest of their life. Okay. Food who is a religion. That was brought to the west by slaves originated from Africa hailing from the West Indies and late eighteenth century. It's believed to have started in Haiti in seventeen twenty four has deeper roots in the much older African practice of of ood moon, practiced by many different African cultures for very many for many centuries. Gives me a vote on a voodoo has a number of God's rituals and practices that can be found in today's vote do through slavery of Odin traditions spread out to places as distant from each other as Cuba. Brazil Haiti the Dominican Republican North America. When slaves were brought to the states many were forced to convert to Catholicism. By their new slave masters in order to keep a connection to the religion of their homelands. The slaves had to hide their gods. This is a classic example of religious syncretism. Right. Uniting of different religions into one new school of thought into a religion, the slaves integrated Catholicism into their voting beliefs merging, their ancestor gods and rituals with Catholic saints and practice and created a new hybrid religion foodie was practiced and displayed publicly in New Orleans during Madame Lowery's life so much. So that laws were passed to keep it in check due to its increasing popularity in seventeen eighty two Louisiana's then governor Galvez prohibited. The importation of of black people for Martinique explained that they quote or too much given to them and make the lives of citizens unsafe. This ban was lifted in eighteen zero three but the Christian fear of voodoo remained plantation owners fleeing the revolution in the West Indies began arriving a few years later, bringing with them considerable numbers of West Indian slaves when Haitian. Activities of arrived in New Orleans became even more popular even more public of voodoo became more popular still after the signing of the Louisiana purchase nature. No three the relationship between blacks and whites was less volatile under American rule than it was previously at least in New Orleans that time of voodoo flourished and the sect gained a significant number of converts. Some of the imagery that we are familiar with is is a snake sacrifice. Right. The drinking of blood before looked into this. I remember some some samba shit too. All right. There's definitely some zombie stuff voodoo has all kinds of energy rituals. As you also might imagine a bunch of aboard, Louisiana debutantes took a liking some of them to the exotic forms of spirituality and acts that were generally seen as taboo, some of them became a bit obsessed with them, right? Made for good gossip few Louisiana whites publicly practice voodoo, but many gleefully observed and spied on the proceedings, right? I can picture that. Just oh my goodness Marie. They're cutting head. Head off a chicken. Oh, how dreadful and look at that man dancing. How sinful oh that dark man with the chiseled apps and all the muscles in his chest and arms in that high tight, but on a strong JAL line. Look at those soulful penetrating sinful is why it's all just so dreadful. Did it just get a lot more humid in here prior to any voodoo activity a common ritual was the is to raise the power. This is when all worshippers press raises the power of all the worshippers present for this ritual for this ritual. Imagine a voodoo Queen and king stand on a box containing the snake. They join hands. The people this ritual. They literally transmit the power of the snake, everyone in attendance. Sometimes he fastened bells the outside of the box would shake it to produce a tinkling sound bewitching, the whole congregation in the midst of the gathering, there would be a boiling cauldron in which were thrown chickens, frogs cat snails. Maybe maybe some squirrel balls. We'll fuck we don't know for sure we weren't there. Always a snake? All these offerings were brought by various attendance. And this is where we get zombies. The dead brought back to life by the power of dark voodoo rituals. We'll save an indepth look into zombies, by the way for voodoo besa suck down the road. But the zombie part would be played by the by some male dancer, or or by the or the voodoo king representing the Legrand's zombie or the great zombie at this point in the ritual. Right. This power of you know, life over death at this point the ritual. Everyone present would would come forth to dance and drink from the snake or the evening supply of toffee raw alcoholic beverage, you know, completely possessed by snake power. So I guess they filled. The snake up some kind of fitter. I don't know. Maybe there during his blood the dancers repair off with lust in there is and the ritual with some. Times ended an actual orgy Hailu Safina now this kinda shit. Of course scared. A lotta white people think about early nineteenth century Christians hearing about or worse witnessing these rituals. Right. They undoubtably thought of them as being satanic. There was a growing concern. Amongst whites such meetings were you know, being held to to work black magic against them. The plot. Some kind of revolution for this reason. The city of New Orleans issued a municipal ordinance eighteen seventeen which forbade the gathering of slaves for dancing or any other purpose except on Sundays, and then only in places designated by the mayor super worried about this shit to the point that laws were being passed. This is the atmosphere. Madam lottery is living in one of our time suck researchers actually spoke with a practitioner of of do in a dedicated student of who do this person wished to remain anonymous, but did promise not to turn any of us into Samis the outline the similarities between of virgin vote do who do many Celtic Bavarian other. Early or other early people's traditions as we mentioned who do is the practice of folk magic while voodoo is the much larger religion in a way, you can think of is like Catholicism or Lutheranism or or being Methodist, and who is like thirty people who are all related in some way. Tending a snake handling service in a backwards Appalachian trailer park church adherence of do not necessarily practice. The much more blood related rituals of hoodoo. An example of hoodoo is the popular voodoo doll sounds counterintuitive voodoo and hoodoo or a few other voodoo dolls is considered a sympathetic magic. Otherwise, defined is use of personal effects facilitate change in a person's life for circumstances. Good or bad avoid Udal, which again is really who do starts out as a small cloth. Doll sown by the practitioner and the likeness of the target individual or into the light as the target individual the cloth can be made of any material. However, it's preferred the material come from the clothing of the target. The doll is fixed with a mix of herbs, right? Or herbs cloth personal items of the targeted like hair fingernails picture of drawing. Their name end or birthday written on a piece of paper and possibly possibly a couple pairs of balls. We don't know for sure probably not it's not run anywhere. Wants the doll has been completed practitioner will breathe life into the doll. And then so it's shut thinking about the the accusations of mouth sewn shut now in when they about the torturing the lotteries supposedly did from that point. The doll is like Chucky on crack rights believed to be a living breathing effigy of the target everything. The two who do who do or does to the doll is meant to affect the target like in that one Scooby doo episode with Globetrotters. Other examples of who practice or curses, like, stop, your slander, this ritual uses a cow tongue slice down the center and filled with peppers pins, rusty nails, and sometimes even urine man they say God works in mysterious ways to who do. God's mysterious shit all of these items are sewn into the cow tongue and nail to fucking tree. Targets prop property as one does to invoke spirit powers this curse dot to cause pain and discomfort in the target whenever they slander the who doer, and there's you know, ten tons of other spells that are done the do. And who do they get even more popular when yellow fever is brought on by mosquitoes and that ravages Louisiana region while slaves and free blacks get sick. They're able to get better while white Europeans die off and many attributed this to voodoo and who do as opposed to African-born people's immunity to the virus. Okay. Besides a culture of do and who do another cultural situation factions, Madame FINA Lowery legend was growing pushback against slavery and new law seeking to protect life's Madame ollery. With someone who owned a lot of slaves. Made a lot of money office lays came from a family who owned a lot of slaves hung around people who a lot of slaves and a lot of other people in New Orleans around the time. We're starting to think you know, what I don't know about this whole sleigh riding. It's it's almost like when you really think about it. It's super fucked up an anti-slavery movement have been alive in America's since the very beginning. Even some of the founding fathers, despite being slave owners went on record against it, a communists and business owners from the north would argue that slavery impeded economic growth when hiring cheap workers, you know, would actually be more practical since he didn't have to feed some Irish fellow when he was young you'd have to take care of him when he was old as as again, many southern slave owners actually did once they retired nations like England put their money and their lives of their own. Own soldiers on the line to end slavery throughout their empires. And beyond by the mid to late late nineteenth century for all intent and purpose of slavery was all but a radically did virtually everywhere except US the specifically, obviously, the south in Brazil treatment of slaves and laws dictate in the treatment range from state to state the Louisiana, code Noir or code of ethics relating to slaves. Read as follows we also forbid all of our subjects in this colony was ever there. Conditional ranked may be to apply on their own private authority the rack to their slaves under any pretense whatsoever. And to mutilate said slaves and any of their limbs or any part of their bodies under the penalty of the confiscation of said slaves in and said masters, so offending shall be liable to a criminal prosecution. We only permit masters when they think that their case requires it to put this lives in irons and to have them whipped with rods or ropes Louisiana, Noah seventeen twenty four. Now that's way back in seventy. Twenty four. How how crazy is that Louisiana? Legislators felt the need to pass a law forbidding physically mutilating, people, right? You don't pass a law like that in a staunch pro slavery area, in my opinion, unless a shit ton of mutilation is already going on which is starving. Like if Madame lottery herself did not mutilate slaves. I if if no one in her household mutilated her slaves. Other slaves were for sure mutilated in Louisiana was which is owned haunted tour worthy horror story. Okay. Now, all the cultural context has been laid out. So so how did Madame Lowery truly become known for being a torture of slaves? It all started with a fire on April tenth eighteen thirty four fire broke out in the lottery resonance on Royal street starting in the kitchen when the police and fire marshals arrived. They supposedly find the cook a seventy year old woman chained to the stove by her ankle. This cook allegedly later said that she had set the fire as a suicide attempt. Because she feared being punished. She said that slaves taken to the uppermost room of the house. Never came back as reported in the New Orleans be the very next day. April eleven to eighteen thirty four bystanders responding to the fire attempted to enter the slave quarters to ensure that everyone had been evacuated upon being refused. The keys by the lotteries. The bystanders broke down the doors to the slave quarters and found quote, seven slaves more or less horribly mutilated suspended by the neck with their limbs apparently stretched and torn from one extremity to the other who claimed to have been imprisoned there for some months. One of those who entered the premises was judge Jules Francois Kanye JR. Who later wrote for the New Orleans be or what he said was later printed excuse me in the New Orleans be he said. The following deposition, stating the material facts attendant upon the horrible disclosures at the late configuration has been made by judge Colnago before or knowledge fucking whatever's names, God, damned French English. This judge see fuck it is judge see coming from the source does is entitled to full credence. We shall make no comments. But let's documents speak for itself. The the punt. Declares that on Thursday. Some of these things are hard to because it's written English. But like with an Asterix, they have so many archaic words fucking people. Why can't they just speak the same language as me, which is not good English? Anyway, on Thursday, the tenth of fire took place on the premises of MS or MRs Lowery that this is poorly written that he repaired as a citizen for the purpose of affording any assistance within his power that on arriving there. He was apprised of there being one of the apartments some slaves who were chained and who were from their situation exposed to perish in the conversation. And he's and he said a bunch of other stuff in this letter. The basically he gets this thing of he he claims that he talked to the lorries, and I'm just kind of summarizing now, I was originally planning on reading this all, but it's just it's written so bad. He was planning on, you know, trying to help people who are trapped inside ask the res to give them no to let. Let these people in let him and some other people in to help the other trapped inside and says it lotteries were just like now. Now, we don't don't worry about it. And basically just refused to help them. And so they had to break open the doors. I'll go back and do it for a second there. And he and then he says accompanied by the citizens with him he ended and found to Negras with incarcerated whom he'd liberated from this den. Several voices were heard that were other victims in the kitchen, he repaired thither, but found no one that one of the negro had an iron collar, very large and very heavy and was chained with heavy irons by the feet that she walked with the greatest difficulty that he was unable to examine the one behind that one individual whom he believes to be Mr. yet said to him. He knew of another slave was confined he ended with this gentleman to another apartment where upon someone's removing a mosquito Baugh an old negro was found with the deep wound in her head. She appeared to be quite feeble too much show to be able to walk then the demont design. Some of the persons present to have her removed to the mayor's office where the first two had been moved demanded, Mr. Lowery, if he had any slaves in his GARRETT'S somebody's I guess we're trying to ask him. Hey, man. Do you have any more people in he'd be helped he replied and insulting tone that they were persons who will do better by remaining at home and visiting others to dictate to them laws inequality of officious friends. Okay. So here's what I just got from that. No one saw a buckets of body parts littered littering the room or a woman with her skin peeled into a spiral. You know? So she resembles I'm gonna Caterpillar like New Orleans ghost guy tour guide will tell you. But seems several people who were witnesses to the fire did find other human beings, you know, slave shackled inside in irons. You know, it does appear that a lot of res didn't seem interested in saving them that they seemed very okay with letting them be burned alive ended, the, you know, these people inside were very very very mistreated and in another article from the time, they're report. The people witnessing the bodies of quote mutilated slaves that doesn't look good. All right. I think there is a there's starting to be more truth as legend than I originally thought. There was going to be following that eighteen thirty four fire. The New Orleans be also reported that an angry mob formed around the Delphine home wants the fire was put out and the sheriff and his officers like when people started hearing about the atrocities as opposed you went on. And they're in a sheriff and his officers were called in to disperse the crowd. And then the paper reported the by the time, the mob left the Royal street. Property had sustained major damage with quote scarcely anything remaining, but the walls the paper also reported the slaves who survived the fire were taken to a local jail where they were made available for public viewing the New Orleans be reported by April twelfth up to four thousand people had attended to view the slaves to convince themselves of their sufferings that doesn't look good. I mean still is now reports of crude sex changes in crappy would still a lot of horrible shit. But but how did that story? Grow into the story of today will an early British social theorists named Harriet Martineau has a lot to do with that Harriet is widely considered the world's first female sociologist. She was contemporary of lotteries who traveled to New Orleans two years after the rumors of slave torture. Two years after the fire in eighteen thirty six to interview locals in her findings. She did note that Madame Delphine slaves. Look, haggard and wretched and appearance. That's what people told her Harry reported that one of lotteries neighbors, one saw one of the lottery slaves, a twelve year old girl named Leah fall to her death from the roof of the Royal street mansion, we'll try and to avoid punishment from a whip wilting del phen- Lowery. This is an important piece of the puzzle. That speaks to her direct involvement in slave abuse. There are several different versions of the story. Here is the main one Lee was combing Madame lotteries hair and eighteen thirty four. Madam lottery, roughly forty seven years old at this time, apparently at some point she tugs, the Madame's hair too hard Delfin goes fucking beserk over right grabs. A nearby bull whip and chases after this young girl whose exact age is not given the accounts. I read accounts vary widely a regarding what happened next. There were allegedly witnesses to this but their stories about this event. Do vary. Bit some accounts say Leo was first beaten with the whip. And then kind of thrown off the roof most accounts over say, she ran the side of Madame Delphine grabbing bull whip all accounts do have her running from Adam Dale Fain, and ultimately falling or being pushed to her death from either the roof of the home or from an upstairs window. So did she jump, you know, from from the home from the roof of the home to escape d'ici that she trip she pushed these are some of the questions around these events that will likely never be completely answered. But there are records that showed that, you know, Madame Adelphia was fined for her involvement in the death of this girl. Find a measly three hundred dollars, but still. You know, there's a record of this happening and of her being guilty of this happening. Some kind of abuse according to Harriet Martineau this incident led to investigation the lotteries in which they were found guilty of illegal cruelty to other slaves and then forced they were forced to forfeit nine additional slaves. Sadly, these nine slaves were brought were bought back. You know by the lotteries through in through through a relative relative go by back, then give them to the Madame Dell. Fina husband, and they were returned to the royalist residents. You know, sadly shit like that happened all the time. Interesting to note that the lotteries gotten legal trouble for slave mistreatment during era of history when it was the norm to mistreat slaves, which leads me to believe that the very least, you know, these people were especially sadistic and cruel March. No also recounted stories that the lottery kept her cook chained to the kitchen stove that she beat her daughters when they attempted to feed slaves the pits. Pittsfield son writing several weeks after the evacuation of Lowery slave quarters following the fire claim that two of the slaves found in the Laura imagine a died since the rescue. And then added we understand that in digging in the yard bodies have been disinterred. And that the condemned well in the grounds of the mansion having been uncovered others, particularly that of a child were found. So, you know, more bodies are found secretly buried on the property ten years later, another author will darken the already dark tale of Madame Lilo read, the American novelist, George Washington, cable, probably the most famous writer to spread the lottery. Legend. He was born in Louisiana in eighteen forty four. He fought for the confederate army later became a journalist and historian Creole life before and after the civil war painted, an incredible picture of pride opulence, racism and money his eye for detailing the battle between the Americans and French Creole was remarkable, especially in his famed novel. The Grandes seems a he conveyed a sense disapproval toward the racism still present in Louisiana after the civil war cable, eventually moved to Massachusetts became friends with Mark Twain and actually did some book lecture tours together and an end in his book. Strange true stories of Louisiana originally published eighteen eighty nine he told a lot of retail. He didn't include medical experiment injuries in the list of tortures suffered by the slaves. But he did corroborate claims of household slaves being terribly mistreated and then being freed by others during and after the terrible fire and his accounts are backed up with original documents and depositions given after the incident in eighteen thirty four and then decades later in nineteen forty six. John de LA Wien wrote ghost stories of old New Orleans. This is the book most likely responsible for some of the gory or embellishments on what the rescuers found during the lottery house fire of eighteen thirty four including stories of medical experiments and buckets of body parts. No documentation to back up aspects of these aspects of the story, Dale Levin wrote a horror story, not a historical book, but his book has been treated as a historical accounts since arm. Sorry, genie, not, gene. So it's a she genie day Levin. She wrote, for example, the man who smashed the garage door saw powerful male slaves. Stark naked chained to the wall. There is gouged out. Their fingernails pulled out by the roots. Others had their joint skinned and festering great holes in their buttocks where the flesh had been sliced away their ears hanging by shreds their lips sewn together their tongues drawn out and sewn to their chins severed hand stitched bellies lay. Legs pull joint from joint female slaves. There were their mouths and ears Cran with ashes and chicken awful and bound tightly others had been smeared with Honey, and we're a massive black. Ants intestines were pulled out a nodded around naked wastes there will holes in skulls were rough. Stick had been inserted inserted to stir the brains some of the poor creatures were dead, some were unconscious and a few were still breathing suffering agonies beyond any power to describe. And again, that's a hor- novel were they really ended up and clearly integrated a bunch of do who do stuff, and then, you know, since it's kind of become part of the, you know, quote, unquote, factual mythology and then in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight the stories taken even further embellished further by book called journey into darkness goes and vampires of New Orleans by cat Trina Catharina Smith who is the operator of a New Orleans ghost tour business Smith book at a more explicit details. Such as you know, a victim, obviously. Had her arms amputated in her skin peeled off in a circular pattern, making her look like a human Caterpillar and another who had her limbs broken and reset it ought angle. So she resembled a human crap other specific tales of atrocities not document about early eye. Witnesses have also wove their way into delving story stories of people chained to walls and strapped to tables stretched and torn people were suspended by their next which would also stretched and torn, you know, an and you know, in those some of those actually were in some of those early newspaper accounts, you know, women wearing a cruel spiked iron collar, callers, one story that a woman allegedly had her mouth forced open feces of some kind shoved in and then her lips shut again fucking hoodoo. And then there's yeah, there's that whole story gets told by law the tour guys about the guy with with the spoon sticking out of his head. You know, had the whole drilled in the spoon sticking out. There was meant to quote star his mind, or, you know, drive him stir crazy another potential who legend. There are tales of a female slave a found hung to the rafters by arisen her intestines wrapped around her body, which was supposedly thought to be some who do practice some ritual and other county that after the fire workers found a number of bones buried on the boards in the yard. Or in addition to you know in the yard. All right. So that's that's those are all the legends. So what about the law? The res what happened to them will Harriet Martineau that sociologist road in eighteen thirty eight that Madame del Fien fled New Orleans during the mob violence if all fire taking a coach to the waterfront than traveling by schooner to mobile, Alabama. And then traveling on from there to Paris looks like she fled alone. The doctor do not seem to stay together at all following the fire. You know, Dr law re sorta just disappears around eighteen forty two that year. He sent a letter that had been seen or that we found he's had this letter from Cuba to a friend in New Orleans, basically asking if they could send him some of. Shit after the separation everything stuff that was still New Orleans Mademoiselle Fien Martineau wrote that she had her six-year-old son by Louis Lowery Jean-Louis with her. She also had her three of her adult children, according to Harriet and other accounts once still female into French. She just kinda kept living your life. And as if she had not done something horrific. She could not be prosecuted in France for what she allegedly a New Orleans, contrary to a lot of other accounts. She didn't have to live in secret genie. Dolphins daughter by John blank, allegedly visited her mom in Paris in late eighteen thirties with her children and husband as shown by numerous pieces of correspondence found in the Missouri history archives. Madame ollery, supposedly, thrived and Paris. You conducted business in France, pay taxes, even supposedly financed the repair of residence. She still had a New Orleans not the Royal street one. But a different one that you rented out there are several accounts of dolphins death that have been entertained by storytellers and historians one report suggests that she was killed by a wild boar hunting. Accident and France, while another more likely a story ran in the New Orleans paper the times picayune March eighteen ninety two said that she died amongst friends and family in Paris. You know, as a quite old apparently yell if if she died in eighteen ninety two she'd been over a hundred years old she might have made it back to New Orleans before she died in the late nineteen thirties. Eugene backs who serves Sexton to Saint Louis Saint Louis cemetery number one until nineteen twenty four discovered an old cracked copperplate in the alley four cemetery rally force gives me that cemetery. The inscription the plate read reads, Madame Lowery born Madame born Marie Delphine McCarty died in Paris, December seven th eighteen forty two at the age of sixty something that final number was apparently missing a road it. But you know, if she died in eighteen forty two then she would have been well, she would have been quite sixty. She would have been like a fifty seven. All the numbers a little little fish. But it, but these are all all the things that are said, where's she buried? We don't know gene block the block daughters and Madame lottery all rest unknown burial sites. But there's lots of speculation. There's speculation that she's in one of those, you know, New Orleans cemetery. There's a couple of throwing around is possibly one of the number the number two crypt in the forestall plots one of the forestall plots in Saint Louis cemetery. What about the house where the slaves were probably tortured will after a lotteries death. It was it was purchased and at some point prior to eighteen eighty eight it was restored over the following decades. It was used as a public high school conservatory of music and apartment building a refuge for young delinquent bar has written a furniture store a luxury apartment building. And then as I said earlier, nNcholas cage bought it in two thousand seven, and then the current owner is, you know, someone with the regions financial corporation is last record that I found. Okay. Sorry that there's one who was a little bit all over the place. We actually spent more time on this one than than a lot of recent ones man when you look into this tale, it is super super hard to decipher folklore from actual facts. You know, the court records themselves are hard to read because people spoke in fucking weird formal crazy ask krill version of English. Here's my final thoughts. You know, they're made knob anybody's in the attic, you know. But they did supposedly up skeletons from the yard. There is evidence of a lot of mistreatment for sure including the controversial death of twelve year old Leah was the abuse worse than what other slave owners were probably committed to the time. I think it was I think it was probably quite a bit worse even even here internally. And to suck dungeon, there's some disagreement on this. But I think I think a lot of the legend actually is true. I think it's going to be impossible to determine if you abuse came at the hands of either Dr Lori or Madame del fi lottery, but based on the lease tail and the fine. She was given a does seem. Madam dolphin might have become quite cruel in her later years. I mean, there's also you know, this. I mean, you know, the the possibility that a lot of that was under the influence of Dr lottery because again, none of this stuff happened at least, documented wise until he came into the picture. I don't know. Maybe it was his influence. Maybe she was covering for him. Most the time there's I witness accounts of her, you know, not carrying slaves were trapped in a burning structure, you know, many witnessed or slaves in a poor physical states in again how much of that was her and how much of it was her husband. I I do think that he was probably a much bigger monster than she was, you know, could some of this been false testimony. Yes. We'll never know. But we do know that they both were run at a town because of tales of mistreatment, you know, tales started being printed the day after the fire not necessarily years later. People got so mad about her treatment slaves, an angry mob attacked your property. You know, two decades before the civil war. I don't think that happens unless you've gone fuck and way outside the bounds of what was acceptable to time and a certain level. Of abuses slaves was acceptable that time. So to receive the press she did to flee town like she did to flee the whole country as her and her estranged husband who ended up in Cuba. Did that leads me to believe that, you know, the two of them or at least one of them were terrible. Terrible. Terrible people. Do I think you raise a devil baby and broke people's bones to reshape them into crappy? Fuck no. But I do think she may have done shit that was equally horrific. I mean, as we learned doctors really did do horrific medical experiments on slaves. You know, the rumors of abuse didn't begin until after she married a doctor. That's a weird coincidence. If it's not outright incriminating. I think there's a good chance. There was some weird experiments done those poor people. But without more details. I mean, this is just my speculation and opinion, we'll never know the full story, which is why her former home, it's such a popular spot for goes tour. Right. There's a lose to all kinds of horrible dark shit. There's the do who do angles. I mean, it makes for a great ghost tour tail because there will forever be the possibility that that some mad woman New Orleans really did do horrific shit deserving of a later depiction as that monster Kathy Bates portrayed in the third season of American horror story. It's a crazy tail for sure with or without the voodoo or who do elements. Take a take a few more. Looks back at his tail in today's top five takeaways time. By the way. Number one, the tale of Madame Dale Fain is a fascinating mix. A fact folklore did she mistreat slaves and possibly even torture them. I'm gonna say she probably did did you turn them into human caterpillars and crap people and raised della baby. No, probably not number two did Madame dill Fien or her third husband perform, a horrible medical experiments on slaves possibly me. Personally. I think probably I have no hard evidence of that. But we do know the doctors related perform these experiments number three Jean Pierre blank Delfin. Second husband was fucking pie. Writ pretty cool, or at least to due to rain with its. He was also a lawyer whose association with pirates helped save America in the war of eighteen twelve fun side detail number four Saturday. The most important witnesses to this whole story would never likely interviewed not that we know of the slaves that lived in the Laurie house due to racism known ever seem to ask them what they thought about this certainly a missed opportunity to know a lot more about this story. Number five, new info. You want to go on the tour? I went on the sparked my interest in this topic. Check out go city tours in New Orleans. They're not a sponsor too. It's just a business that I you know, I went I thought it was cool. They'll walk you around the French quarter talk at length about the legends of Madame. They'll Fien Viduka Queen, you know, Marie Lavoro patients Dombi tons of huntings. I recommend it highly. If you like it in the dark folklore is highly morbidly entertaining hail, LUSA FINA time. Takeaway. Episode has been sucked. Right. New Orleans sucked. Gin already look forward to getting back there for the next suck. What an interesting city. Interesting tale. Fascinated makes a history true crime in folklore. Hope you liked as much as we did here in the suck Dench wasn't too convoluted. Big thanks to the time up team. Thanks to Queen suck. Lindsey come as high priests karma camp. Jesse guardian of grammar donor, Reverend Dr Joe paisley, timescale, high priest Alex Dugan. The guy's a bit elixir danger brain access apparel, thanks to New Orleans native and upcoming summer intern here in the suck dungeon self. Sophie fact, sorceress evidence hope Sophie enjoyed what I did with the beginnings of her research and huge thanks again to new fulltime suck dungeon, employees and hetero. Search Zach still need to nickname Flannery for all of his massive help. If you haven't already done so check out the coal to the curious private face. Facebook group online over eight thousand members now over two thousand members on discord you can link to. Both episode description also linked to discord in the time so cap next week's time suck we're going back to Russia back to the US. Sa we did that a lot here, man. We love talking about Russia talking about the KGB this time what is deal with Russia. Fascination of space lizards a spoken. The topic of the KGB won the last base vote. The tail of the KGB leads. It's all over the place from intense spine, espionage to the ingenious technologies of the Cold War. And all those atrocities that were committed in the name of national security. Imagine the worst serial killer in history, and then rinse and repeat that several million times to understand what the KGB did Chiquillo Maceio pop golf Alexander pollution. They don't have shown the KGB KGB was a multifaceted multifaceted organisation to combine intelligence gathering national defense duties protection of Soviet officials messing with other nations election processes sounds familiar. They were also entrusted with policing their own people. Big mistake the treatment. A political distance and undesirables into gulags is one of the most horrific and mind fucking bits of world history. The details not for those weak stomachs. But if you handled today, you probably to thanks to a couple of Russia's thanks to a couple of Russia's best riders will go into details of life in the logs. We'll also look into the many friendly competitions at the US and USSR had going between each other cover the space race last week. Right. There was propaganda wars that were equally interesting. Also, the topic gives us an excuse to look into the many secret police agencies around the world, how does the KGB compared to the Israeli massad? Or Britain's what does it m I six I was going to say M16.'s mix. There's such a vast topic with the KGB filled with traders, national heroes, six secret military actions, perhaps the most amped up fear based propaganda in history in the next week's episode of hope that we can all get a better understanding of just how far collectivism and ideology can go when neighbors police neighbors in the name of the common. Good, it seems at least in this in this case that. Nothing. Good comes from it. All right. Let's let's let's now Mosey on over into the not secret at all world of time sucker updates. In time. Sunday update got a few youth. My dog lies in the moon. Landing episode time sucker Dylan Melva. No is one of you who got pretty sad for those dogs for bit Dylan wrote God, dammit, you got me after one hundred thirty five podcast. You got me one dog in space. Yeah. I knew that four dogs. Sure. Why not but twenty-six fucking chihuahuas? And I didn't even think for second that you might be full of shit. I'm sitting here thinking about how they can even survive the force of the launch not even thinking about why they would cram so many damn Chihuahua into one shuttle damn you, Dan Cummins. Sorry. Not sorry Dylan. I love that you were left wondering why why in God's name is nasty cramp twenty-six. While couldn't you put like one or two big dogs. Like, what does that even proof next update is to let you damone area suckers? No, some good is being done in your neighborhood. Just over week, Chris. Tomorrow's wrote in saying Hello. I'm a loyal listener of time suck and newly-born spaces heard my wife Elizabeth, and I just saw your show in Des Moines. My wife is twenty nine and has Sarai psoriatic. I didn't prepare for this word serve psoriatic. I believe arthritis which acts a lot like rheumatoid arthritis. She was diagnosed five years ago when getting the standard check about she hit her knee on something. And the swelling didn't go down for two weeks. We've done this walk two years in a row, and this will be our third year last year I held raise money by setting the goal of five hundred dollars. And then I would cut my hair at the time. I had been growing my hair for four years. I had a pretty big fro-. But it was for a good cause when we saw you last year, I just cut my hair into a double mohawk this year. We're trying to raise seven hundred dollars for team the flare bears. It would mean a lot to me if you could mention this on an upcoming podcast. I copied the link here. Just in case. Thank you. Ve. Everything guys do with this podcast remember to keep on suck and loyal spaces or Chris tomorrow's Well, Chris. Yeah. Thank you for for sending that influent. Adding that linked today's episode description, thanks for that damone show so much fun, by the way, good on you for getting out there and doing some good in the world. Hell Nimrod hopes some damone area sucker show up with that walk because we saw quite a few that night. Lot of lot of suckers in Des Moines. Interesting moon landing Nazi update. Now coming in from time sucker Adam Jordan's Dodd who writes, dear suck masters premium. I'm Colonel listening to one three six moon landing conspiracy. I had to stop to send you correction when you mentioned the conspiracy that there are Nazis on the moon. You said it's not logical because they couldn't build an atomic bomb to win World War Two, but could build a spaceship. I I agree with your logic and understand what you're trying to say. But as a World War Two history nut I have to inform you in the nuclear capabilities of the Nazis. You are corrected that never made a nuclear bomb. However that does not because they couldn't or didn't try to the Nazis occupied heavy-water or deteriorate oxide plants in Norway during World War Two or maybe determine the Nazis were reportedly close to create a nuclear weapons using the heavy-water, but in nineteen forty-three operation or side. Led by Norwegian commandos was successful in destroying the heavy-water production facility. Good for you know, we data very very hill. For florida. They were thanking you they're much that hopefully somebody that will get old to me. This was followed by allied bombing the Nazis tried to bring the remaining heavy-water back to Germany the Norwegian resistance sabotage the ferry boat in lake ten. Yolk team rohnert is the man who led those resistance fighters in his also suck topic. I added him to the voting awhile back. So everyone should vote it up. There's also a great movie called the heavy-water war. There was on Netflix about this topic sorry for being long winded with this correction, but I love teaching people about World War Two. And I love my Norwegian heritage. Thank you for everything. You do here at time suck my wife, and I had a blast in Cleveland for the livestock and your stand up. My wife was the one who got up on stage, and we're and war Lindsay's. Crown you guys couldn't make her happier. Your loyal spaces. Adam. I was saying Jordan. Instead, it's Jordan's did. Thanks for putting that a pronunciation their is at the bottom. But so I said it's wrong so many times. Yeah. Thanks, you that information that's very cool didn't know about the Norwegians involvement that way in the war. Yeah. George instead. But it is a AA love you lovey Scandinavians. You're crazy words another lineup day coming in from Ryan of CO Ryan rights, you assholes fucking hover board lies. I one to get me. Okay. Ups took one hundred thirty odd sucks. But finally got me good. Well, played, sir. You're getting good doctor genius. And not sure if you set it or not but WD forty was discovered because of the space race. I don't think I did sit on sorry Ryan. But I have kind of good news. Now, actually another sucker. Thomas fog pointed out that a hover board does exist. It just exists in not very usable. But technically real form. Thomas wrote exciting news, suck master's degree and believe it or not real and legitimate legitimate hover boards exist today for real checkout. The Lexus hover board it's powered by liquid nitrogen cooling, the strong magnets inside causing an effect called quantum locking. There's an easy to view and understand you to videos out there explaining the effect and showing it in practice. You can only. These in special skating parks that have metallic basis, but they work in there. Really cool. You also don't lose momentum the same. What you do with friction from wheels. Thomas fog. I did watch somebody else Thomas, and it is pretty cool. I didn't know my lie was true. I mean, it's pretty cool. But it's still not what I want. It's still not mardi mid fly back to the future. Cool right is sweet. But it's not hanging on behind the car. Sweet. So hopefully, soon another moon landing update from time sucker Marshall, I won't give his lasting because Marshall not happy not happy with the episode Marshall wrote dude, the moon landing episode was especially acidic and mean hearted disappointing and hard to listen to usually enjoy your respectful and well research take on history and conspiracies. But this was not your best effort take care. All right. All right marshal. I I hear you. But you know, what some weeks, I just can't respect aggressive ignorance and to me. That's what the moon landing conspiracy represents. I'm pretty happy with that suck. No, I'm I'm very happy with. Suck to me the moon landing conspiracy. When you just when you actually look into it is not any more credible than the flatter theory. And frankly, it's just a disrespectful the world's scientific community. When you say, you don't believe it happened. You're not just saying I respectfully disagree. You have your opinions, and I have mine, and we should both respect each other. Because your your opinion is not respectful, if you believe that, you know, because you're essentially saying that everyone who works for NASA everyone's been working for NASA. Everyone who died in the NASA, you know, space program disasters is a dirty fucking liar and a thief and a dirty thief for taking money for shit that doesn't even happen for bunch being a bunch of bullet that to me that belief system is inherently disrespectful. I do believe Marshall the tolerance can be taken too far. And I am proudly extremely intolerant towards aggressive. Ignorance an emotional reaction to last week's update Senate from spaces or James Pitt who wrote I felt that in the moon. Landing updates today did a total chain reaction. From thousands of spaces are getting choked up at the same time last month and a half has been crazy work. And every time I got a thought I was standing it your way because this show has helped me get through some dark as fuck nights at work. Then I hear you reading that Email, and I realize I'm doing just fine and a temporary bad time doesn't compare to what other people deal with twenty four fucking seven. Thanks to you and your crew for creating the best community ever, my heart goes out to all of you spaces that is so sweet James, man. Thank you so much, man. So you're having some rough times, and and glad it in a way, you know, that that message could help more appreciation for the time so community coming in from time sucker Paul were to who writes, I think I'm sending this to where I was supposed to. But I'm not sure so starting advance if I'm not Ella. Well, well, you know, what no LL needed because you nailed it. Hashtag nailed it. I've been wanting to write in for. And by the way, you send these things into bojangles at times podcast dot com. If you don't want to use the message feature on the app or website. That's the Email address where we get all these. I've been wanting to write in for a while. Now. Listen to your moon landing suck. And the time sucker updated the week. I figured I should finally do it if I remember correctly. I found your podcast after your guest on someone else's podcast and followed over to yours, and I'll real nece. I was not all that into your comedy. I like I like you realize However, I definitely see why others are that. I love the way you phrase, and if we all like the same things the world would be boring. Things that said, I'm definitely starting to find myself laughing more often than not like initially because I was fascinated about the topics and the information you covered enjoyed the formatting of your podcast as time goes on if I'm a self more and more getting into the podcast because of the community you built as a result of many entertainers and content creators can make a difference by providing entertainment or knowledge, but unlike others, you're doing so much more you and your community are genuinely changing people's lives and bringing people of all walks of life together, you may not necessarily believe in God. But you're, but you're definitely doing God's work. The end of your podcasts are always filled with stories of the good that comes from what you've created. And there's callous more lies you touch that. You don't even know about yet, your beautiful soul generally positive influence on the world, a better place because you yours maybe filled with an incredible diversity of people. But we all look up at the same moon. Exactly. Or in this case, listen to this podcast. So are for the long message. You got me in the fields. Thanks for all you've done and for doing what you do in praise bojangles. Paul. Oh, thank you. That was very very very Paul. I appreciate hope. Doing God's work. You know, I don't know who got is not religious in that sense. But I do most days believe in God, I believe in an undefined unknowable God. But God the same. You know, when I hail Nimrod, I feel like I am hailing some creative mysterious force that I don't even need to fully understand why have arm embrace the darkness that. That's how important concept is to me is embraced the unknown. Don't worry about it. You don't have to figure it out. Thank you one. Final. Message of wellwisher. What was just to go out on? This comes from Texas sucker Kagan, Mercer who writes, hey, master Selker. My name is Kagan come into you from central Texas, and I didn't know where else to do this. So I'm going to ask a favor of you pass. This message to Adam and Jake from the time sucker updates the little warrior fighting cancer doing that right now, I'm sure you have said before which where to type I just don't remember. But I pride myself on my ability to control my motions, especially since I'm a firefighter EMT. And I have to deal with emotional situations every shift, but dammit, Adam. Me come back my class. I had tears coming out of my eyes. I'm a pediatric cancer survivor myself nineteen ninety nine hundred ninety eight I had leukemia. And even when as far as getting the make a wish foundation trip, which as I'm sure you know, is for kids who are supposed to die. But thanks to my incredible doctors and hospital and for me, thanks to the help. God I'm here today. And I just want to pass along to Adam and Jake that hanging there trust your doctors trust to religion. If you have any he has an army behind him, and we are all pulling for him. I just wanted to reach out and tell him that it's possible to beat cancer too young age of living proof on twenty five have been permission for coming up on twenty one years. Just keep fighting don't let it get him or you down keep pushing forward don't give up and live little man live a hell of alive and fought cancer. Anyways. That's all I wanted to say sorry, if there are any Typos, I'm typing in a hurry. But thanks for all you do master sucker. And also a few of those back you donated to the firefighters foundation. And man that is bad as thank you amend that has bad s thank. You for that a love here in that a love here, the sucks keep it coming keep on sucking inhale. Nimrod hail Nim not to you Kagan, and he'll name rats. All you good doers out. There. All you who who root for people to get better? All you who can, you know, set aside, different political and religious ideologies and love each other just the same. Yeah. I think I think we do at a pretty thing here at time suck where? I try to limit my anger and hateful nece to people who are trying to just fucking ruin good shit in the world, you know, to those staunchly opposed the science to despots and just murderers and terrible people and pedophile who act on their pedophilia urges. And you know, all that kind of stuff. But if everybody else like like our bonding together and trying to help each other out here. Appreciate you sending that message to to Adam Ataman, Jake, very very kind of you. And that's all for today's time. Sucker updates. You guys. The fucking best. Thanks time soccer's nine need. We all did. Have great week suckers. I'll be speaking with somebody you spaces on Thursday between now and then and really kind of always don't chase kids with whips. Don't adopt devil babies, and, you know, don't don't turn people into crap people focus instead on just just continuing to do your best to keep on sucking. Oh, my priest and I like to read it together at night.
LOST: Down the Hatch | Series Premiere, "Pilot: Part 1 + 2"
"You're going to be okay. Do you understand me but you have to sit absolutely still hey. I need to get this woman away from these fields. Take her over there. Stay with her contractions occurring closer three minutes apart. Go out for me. Oh you gotta be kidding tipped off. Thanks johnson lost is over but we have to go back back down the hatch. It's the loss rewatch podcast here on po show recap so everybody i am josh twitter joining me on the journey to broadcast our thoughts about lost for the next sixteen years and five months at least it's my good friend and co host mike bloom or should i say my copilot mike bloom. I don't know if you want to say that considering. The co-pilot still remains a mystery after all these years. I'm so excited. Josh the day has finally only arrived. I got everything laid out. My five pens my rossi urging a nice big old festering wound. I'm ready to get into this. Yes i sent mike off off to get me a pen and he has returned with so many pens that we will have enough writing utensils to last us through the entirety of down the hatch a new podcast cast here on post show recaps. This is technically episode three of down the hatch but it is the biggie this is this is this is the real deal we are hopping down down the hatch with our recap of the two part pilot <hes> the very very first episode slash episodes ever of lost lost and if you had not heard the announcement already i would i say go back and listen to the first episode down the hatch. I thought that mike and i did an admirable job. Establishing our love for lost in our intentions of what we are doing here with this podcast but as a quick reset for those who did not listen to that podcast and just want to get into the business of the rewatch watch proper this is down the hatchet as a spoiler filled rewatch podcast <hes> talking about lost discussing each episode weekly by the numbers burs forty two minutes minimum each episode and one hundred eight minutes maximum or else. There are consequences but not this week mike bloom yeah we have been spared this time around the the disaster monster approached us sniffs down a little bit and then receded back into the dark territory so we we are absolved of any guilt for right now but we are on thin ice here because moving forward. If we get past hundred eight minute mark something will occur it might be nasty it might it almost certainly be nasty asked. Exceeding one hundred eight minutes of podcasting about lost on a given week is normally normally a no no for us though it benefits you the listener if you are enjoying mike and i talking about las but we have established that for multi part episode so it's special episodes of down the hatch the rules do not apply. There's just no way that we are talking about the series premiere of lost with having to worry about a time limit. It's it's just not going to happen. We have no idea what we're going to do here and how long we are going to go so we're just gonna go as long as the conversation conversation takes us timer damned yeah exactly that being said we hope you join us along the ride here and hopefully it does not go the way that poor oceanic flight eight fifteen ends up going hopefully you don't split away from us. Get dragged out behind any sort of very impressive holes in your plane elaine. If you want to reach out to us in any way provide feedback or questions or anything about that. We're going to get into our feedback station later. Obviously you can reach out to down the hatch. Wjr at post show recaps pow show recaps dot com plus respective twitter feeds joshes at round howard at mike bloom type of course we have at po show recaps because this is a spoiler filled show josh totally amenable to entertaining any conversations and any of loss so no matter what the episode as if you're three three seasons ahead of us in your rewatch let us know your thoughts this is this is a show that is an all encompassing in so many ways and we're happy to talk about it in any perspective but josh super breaking news as of about like twelve hours ago we finally have a dedicated feed specific to down the hatch for all. You lost pacific fans out there. Yes this is something that we were hoping to get up. As soon as the announcement podcast it took a little while but it is here at the lost down the hatch specific feed feed is available for you to subscribe to search for it on your podcast app of choice. Please subscribe rate review. We've already gotten really very kind to kind face actually kind. It's it's been great. We'll get into a little bit of that later on in the episode. There's there's a lotta straight business that what you want to get into and then talking about the episode i but the say the response has been overwhelming is an understatement but we would love for you to be along the journey. If you subscribe to the down the hatch feed that is the surefire guaranteed way that you are not going to miss a single episode of down the hatch which as we have said ed in the past and we will reiterate here will be dropping. We are aiming to drop these episodes on fridays so get your questions in each week by i would say no later than wednesday wednesday nights we were trying to record these on thursdays and as mike has mentioned plenty of ways to get that feedback to us it can be about the full series. Ideally something that ties back to the episode would be great but not required we will we will talk about whatever comes our way as long as it is fun as long as it is compelling we will we will get into it and we we may not be able to get into everything because we have just an overflow feedback already which is a great problem to have my absolutely yeah. It's a real first. I island problem. Yes definitely i. I would uh speaking of feedback. We have a dedicated feedback section that we're going to get to in a little while but i think just right off the jump. There are a couple of questions or two questions specific. Mike and i have both been pelted with numerous times by numerous different people that we just want to address really quickly right off the off the jump here just to establish it. The first one mike where do you watch lost is is very very fair question. We buried the lead along with nikki and paulo here. I think that that was something that we would somehow nearly to our podcast out of cash. We were so excited about debut in this new podcast that we completely glossed over how are faithful listeners can actually follow a long journey with us. Yes all right so we have compiled <hes> ways that you can watch lost if you are excited about revisiting this series and watching along with the podcast in the united states if you subscribe to hulu lulu lost comes with your hulu subscription you can also buy on amazon prime. That's one way that's what i've done and there's a lot of great x array bonus facts that come with watching lost on amazon but if you're hulu subscriber you will get it as part of your subscription in canada and europe europe. If you subscribe to amazon prime you can get lost that way. Apparently there's a streaming service in australia called stan. Do you want. It's just one and guys say like all right. I think mc lost available today. Yeah just like how claire is the lone australian on the lost in the lost cast stan and his the lone streamer in our show. No nothing about stand but if you're from australia perhaps you do in apparently you can you can watch lost that way. Ben martell the great bend behind the curtain who helps us here on down the hatch notes from his homeland of new zealand he says do you guys have a d._v._d. D._v._d. player you could use because you want to go to the d._v._d. Libraries to to find your lost apparently if you if you live in new zealand but we have heard from a bunch of people who are going back through their d._v._d. Collections pulling out old lost d._v._d.'s some people who've gone ebay to purchase lost. D._v._d.'s sets which is amazing however. You're going to watch those. Those are some of the ways that you can do it. I believe. Can you believe you're a resourceful enough to find this show. I have faith in you much as john has faith in this island yeah and i will say picky on the concept of libraries. If you are someone who doesn't have hulu amazon prime and you still want to be able to watch lost a great idea would be check out your local public library. Usually they have a repository of d._v._d.'s a good amount of t._v. One so maybe there's a good chance that you know fifteen years after the fact your loss st season one. D._v._d.'s are plentiful so i'd be before you want to invest a lot of coin into doing this. Check out those resources well. You can always contact any a former lost. Fanatic frenzy might have to see if they still have the d._v._d.'s. There's a well the resources you can use but i hope that you all no matter what method of viewing you're able to utilize or able to follow along with the journey because i can already tell from the first week and the number screen shots people have sent us of their respective watch along so this this is going to be a very very fun process all right so another question that mike and i have been hit with a lot. Even though i feel like we've been we've been pretty front and center about about in the podcast already. It's possible that the message just has not yet landed. The question is some variation of is is down the hatch going to be safe to listen to if this is my first time through lost mike. The answer is a big fat. No oh it is it is not safe if you have own if you've never watched loss before unless you don't care about spoilers but just in case that message is it's not clear already majors boilers coming. Major spoilers are coming coming. Lots of spoilers are coming. There's some massive spoilers coming. Major spoiler alert are coming all the spoilers coming so many spoilers coming nothing thing but spoilers major spoilers coming in excess of scoreless coming. You know that this spoilers coming all this is coming and we'll see in another podcast brother the late john lennon making an appearance there at the end. Oh my god is alex g aquino's eh desmond hume and i love the fact that it's sort of like a narrative within itself in that the sound effects used in the spoiler song or a spoiler in itself as does this entire podcast dave so really we have fully entrenched ourselves in the fact that this is spoiler filled as josh said. I think we're going to institute buyer. Beware from now on. I mean if you if you haven't seen before and you want to try to watch the episode anfal along. You certainly can will certainly be spoiling some surprises for you down the line that might ruin it if you don't decide to watch it on your own. I think we talked about this in our first episode. We're going to be here for quite some time. We are not you. You know we're we're not gonna hit you whatsoever. If you just stopped the podcast now watch of bunch of loss in a row heck maybe entire series because it's just that addictive and then you'll come. I'm back much the pilot episode with everything fresh in your mind we we are not offended one bit in you doing that because this is an all encompassing story and we are going to try to wrangler as much of that compass as we can yeah. I think if we do our jobs right like one of the goals of this. This is like comfort listening. The show i view is like comfort food tv in a lot of ways for me and we wanna translate that experience into comfort listening view on a weekly basis. You could just can't guarantee that we're going to have some. I'm lost podcasting for you every week for the foreseeable future. It's awesome if you can keep up the pace and watch along with us and have the things things that we're talking about fresh in your mind so that can help generate some great feedback and continue that conversation between us and you but if you want to binge lost just go and bench lost and then come back and listen to us. We're going to be here for years too many fantastic so that's the big spoiler warning. There's no more spoiler warnings for the rest of the episode. We will have light spoiler warnings for the next next couple of episodes. I'm sure but they're going to be really liked about darn weather warnings they will they will come one of the spoiler alert. The other is dark. <hes> so we will we will give a few more of those just as we are getting established here but pretty soon they will die much like boone also time. Let's say look keep going until boone dies abruptly more yes. This spoiler warning dies with boone. Maybe with steve or scott whichever one of them dies i i still don't even though they will go under the surface much like one of them did yeah so. We'll figure it out at that time but that's it. That's that's that's all the business at the top. Let's get into the party. Let's talk about the pilot. Let's get into this episode. Mike bloom. We're talking about the two part pilot it aired on september twenty second two thousand four and september twenty nine th two thousand and four directed by j.j abrams story credit goes to jeffrey lieber who we've talked about and we will probably not talk about again n. J.j abrams and and of course damon lindelof one of the men who is most prominently associated with lost alongside carlton cuse who is not gonna show up conversationally. I think think for several episodes yet <hes> this is an episode that centers on jack sheppard charlie pace kate austen as we flash back to their experiences of the crash of oceanic flight eight fifteen and all sorts of madness ensues. Mike did you watch this live to remind me of your origin story with with lost as far as when lost her started airing yes so i was i guess undercutting choose of our pairing because i was a little late to the boat late to the freighter here on loss. My first episode was oddly enough. The apprehension white rabbit episode. I think it was something along. The lines of this show was marketed the way it was pitched initially which was castaway meet survivor and as an avowed fan of survivor even back back then and it's now a days i thought okay this is an interesting concept and on a huge network drama but let me check it out for some reason. I don't know why i let at four episodes passed me by before a my perennial viewing partner my mother and i sat down to watch the white rabbit and then from then on you know this was also at a time time where network shows did not necessarily have seasons but they'd air certain amount until like the holiday break until the winter holidays and then take a little bit of a break and in that break was when knowing that loss was a huge hot commodity on their hands a._b._c. Re ran the crap out of that first bunch of episodes and that how that's how i was able to watch the first bundle title of them suffice it to say a little confused to what i got dropped into a moment in house of the rising sun jin's going loco and they're like get the hand cut from the marshall and i'm like great now. There's a character named marshall laughed. No there's too many names going on this show. It took me a little while to realize that there was a marshall and that he had a profound impact on on these first three episodes so and then he was deceased yeah exactly so so luckily wasn't a name and remember much of since he wasn't on the screen at that point so yeah. This was something like i had was not watching in the moment and had to catch up on afterwards a josh. What about you. What's your story with the pilot. I feel like i've told this story before on other podcasts on the lost lives podcast that we did once upon a time around two thousand fourteen for post show recaps again you can go back down that rabbit hole down that hatch if you'd like to hear more of our early takes mike. I believe that lost lives is the first time you and i ever interacted. Yes it was where we did our episode rankings but we stood in looking back very weird style where each of us through an episode onto the ranking. We were building a big signal fire of a podcast and easter bundling. It's a fun podcast. I recommend go back can listen to that one. It's a three part podcast where mike and i and antonio navarro and a._j. Mass with a radio transmission assist from joe gar fine ranked every episode of lost in draft form. I recommend listening to that point again light spoiler alert pilot. I think it made the top five. I wanna wanna say at least top ten. I feel like it did we'll. We'll relitigate that by the end of this episode for sure for me i so i think that i've said this story before that i did not watch the first half of the lost pilot when it aired on september twenty second two thousand and four it was airing during my astronomy lecture. I was a sophomore in college and i was a good student and i wasn't going to skip class. Even though i've been reading a little bit about loss at that time i was obsessed with twenty any four and i i was looking into alias at that point. I loved j.j abrams. I was very interested in following whatever work he was he was going to do next so loss was on my radar but it wasn't something i was watching yet and then september twenty nine th two thousand four rolls around and i've just not really that at interested in going to astronomy lecture that night so i stay in my dorm room and i turn on lost i watch lost and i think maybe i went to two more astronomy lectures for the rest of the semester but i decided to turn my gaze away from the stars and on the city onto the soon to be stars that are developing from this ensemble cast esta some relatively you know no names but most mostly a bunch of oh never seen that person before which we we touched upon last time islam. We'll certainly touch upon more on our feedback. I know very little about about the stars in the sky but the constellation that is lost. I could talk about for the years apparently so that is that is what we are going to do. We are going to start in on our four stories segment where we are going to be talking about four big big picture stories coming out of each episode of lost and we will begin here. Mike i think as we want to do most of these episodes because there may be people who are listening listening to podcasts in aren't really watching and just want to be guided through the emotion and the feeling and the reminders of what was happening on law so we're gonna do some some summarizing of the story of the episode here and we'll we'll talk you through some of our takeaways as we go so we will start off with story point number. One will be the story of the pilot part one and mike bloom. I've been dying to say this for so so long here we go. It's thing we like to say when we're talking about. Lost your show recaps. When it comes to the pilot part one mike we opened on an i of course put the top on falling down from the ceiling the league we've done it. We've accomplished the bare minimum. This podcast did we did credit to the great antonio in the sky for coining that turn of phrase from the lost lives lives podcasts once upon a time but yes we open on an i of course we opened on because this show will end on as as well and it will end on the very same eye of the man we are gazing upon when lost begins it is jack sheppard aka matthew fox waking up in a bamboo forest where he will he will go to sleep again. Someday getting roused awake by a very friendly labrador named vincent the dog and so beautifully fli lost begins very much evidence. Yeah i mean it's so interesting how this is a show. That's very much about isolated. Individuals become a community whether they you realize how connected they are on the outside or why they've been brought onto the island you know this introduction is a very good representation of it. Jack wakes up alone in the middle of the jungle and it is serene and it is quiet. There's one dog licking his hands. If he just woke up on the side of the creek after falling asleep reading a good book and his idyllic country tree home and then he bus onto the beach and all hell breaks loose before we get to that though i do wanna talk about the i for a hot second because i was looking to some symbolic the <hes> of the i throughout history and i found some interesting stuff here. Tummy walked me through it so looking someone in the eye. The eye is obviously a recurring during motif in loss there's going to be i would say at least twenty times. It's gonna become much less recurring after season one but still a handful of times we're going to have have this close up of a single person's eye opening and looking someone in the eye in western traditions is usually a way of exerting <unk> honesty right that we as survivor fans we always hear like oh he could look me in the eye and shake my hand and told me that he was voting my way so i knew he was honest and i feel like this is a show. That's about getting people down to who they are. You know as humans without maybe outside circumstances. We're going to get into the tabua rossa of it. All i'm shore and so this is a way for us to literally see how much we're going to see into a person's soul into who they are dependent on outside circumstances the ways they've raised their natural proclivities are the really interesting thing i've found is. We're going back to egyptian mythology which has sort of like a weird place in las kane and we see higher pop up here and there but egyptian mythology has the eye of horace also known as the eye of raw and josh the eye of horus represents good health protection and royal power which sounds a lot like jack sheppard to me now. I don't know if this was purposeful on behalf of the writers to linked so much a symbolism through the show with this connection right away but i started started very interesting how important is our and at least in this case of jack how the tents of the eye of horus are very much linked to what he exudes especially in this opening scene yeah i. I love the way that it opens. I also love just retroactively that jack is waking up like and he doesn't know it yet. He's going to be such a skeptic in such a cynic for so long but if he went the other way and walk like ten or fifteen minutes north instead of towards the beach he would find the light of the island. He's basically right there. Uh-huh he's so close to the bajic power source i think that he needs to be like anointed in order to see it but he is so so fricking close so we're we're not going to revisit the bamboo forest here in this exact spot for a very very long time but i think it's just worth taking stock of the fact that we we begin here we begin on the eye and the eye as as mike mentioned filled with symbolism that i wonder how intentional it is probably not too deep at the start of the show but i think another great example of some of the things that they could've just retroactively look back gonna be like oh. We've got a lot of great building blocks to play with and we can really build in a lot of this. Mythology already moved in. They already hung their shoes up in the trees so josh. It looks like they're going to be here for a while. They're going to be here for a minute so jack runs out hits the beach. Here's something and of course we heard a little bit of it at the top of the podcast. We won't hear anymore from the plane crash when we get into our eight southbound but there it is the wreckage of oceanic flight eight one five it is is it disaster we will talk about some of the behind the scenes intel on how that all came together later on in the podcast but for now it's just such a spectacle some amazing character connections that are occurring here as one of jack's first actions is to team up with john locke a guy that he is going to have a very turbulent relationship ship with these the first person the first meaningful main character that he teams up with year to pull some wreckage off of a man and save this guy with the help of two other redshirts who we will get to know jack is going to go on and rescue his pregnant half sister who he does not know is his pregnant half sister claire littleton little tin. He's going to be assisted as well by hugo hurley reyes who he does not yet no is the man the future new man in charge of wine once and future king. Yes hurry the king. He's going to be saving the life of a woman who right until this moment was dying from cancer rose. We will find out more about that in season two and all the while he is going to be trying to shula way a man who's just trying to help but this guy i is going to be dead in a couple of weeks anyway and then he goes and he saves claire and hurley from getting flattened out in the opening action blockbuster sequence <hes> loss no actual blockbuster featured this is i know that people might you know just following along with our recap. I heavily lee encouraged people if you're not going to watch the entire pilot parts one and two at least watch these first twenty two minutes and it's pretty crazy that along with this this is just one segment but the entire first act of lost is one uninterrupted at twenty two minutes streak back in two thousand four. I feel like that was unprecedented. Josh i'm feeling nowadays. We're like mister robot when thirty five minutes without a commercial break yeah that totally makes sense but back before peak t._v. When we were just something that mountain climbing got to get a better signal this just feel so unprecedented and really is a great microcosm of just how lost changed the game in so many ways. I cannot talk highly enough about this scene. Unlike the oceanic eight fifteen wing this pilot holds up in the crash is gripping the camera the work of jack stumbling onto the beach and again the way the cameras focused on his left side is just like again a perfect hawaiian idyllic beach seems like he just you know took a it's news while going on a vacation. Maybe loss two-rupee was wet and then it swerves around and we just see madness. Shannon is screaming. Her head off michael of course running around yelling. Walt charlie is just being a dingus and it's just wandering around in a drug-addled as there is so much yeah he's high he's here. He's very high and that is a tough situation to have to be doing with in his state of mind. There's so much great stuff going. I mean the first line is somebody helped me which i think you could just said by a random person but again great microcosm of jack's role especially in every serve plays like essentially do like one doctoral procedural roll boil down to like a five minute series literally going through three different patients and his triaging them in the moment. I do love that lock helps. The guy whose legs are pinned under the wreckage records like better you than me buddy unfortunately r._i._p. Gary troup who i would say you know so to recap what happens support gary troup i will we'll get to that and the feedback as well. We definitely have that coming up so we can. We can hold onto that tape. I will say before we move on here. Yes boone is not portrayed in a great light. We're going to get into it. I would say that the pilot is a pretty good job of introducing our core cast of characters in very surface level aw characterizations except maybe boone boone's doing the best he can to resuscitate poor rose and jack comes in putin's like you know what i was doing that you normal life guard. I'm licensed and jack slightly replied while you might want to consider giving that license my wrench and then he gets onto the you know the dingus. His mission of when you go on didn't get a guy out of the way tom tip grab pens for a tracheotomy that you're never going to do so. I do feel a bit bad for billiard just because jack treats them with such blatant disregard right from the get go yeah i sure so jack is going to get away from the crash. He's got some some stuff to deal with on his own. He's been injured as well. We're just finding that out for the first. I i am that he's got a pretty gnarly wound on his back. He is going to get that wound on his back. Stitch by the woman he's gonna fall in love with and spend his is happily ever after life sideways thing that will try to make sense of it's a future problem or a sideways problem but it's not a now problem. Kate austen is in the building or on the beach as it were. They have a little conversation about why jack is not so afraid we will we will get to that in in fuller detail and it will bet i think mike the bigger news to talk about is their conversation is gonna continue into the night and they are going to be on the beach together and they're going to be recapping what they think may have happened to their a plane as to why their plane crashed and this is a detail that i feel like people who have not watched the episode and longtime probably forget and would maybe if they haven't watching. They're just listen to us with things that we're kidding but jack makes a plane like a toy plane out of out of a leaf and just like flies it through the sky to illustrate his point of like we were here and then we crashed ashed and it was bad and it's like jacksonville serious person in the world and here he is making toy leaf planes which feels so remarkably out of character sure for jack so many of these characters arrived so fully formed but this is just one moment that is just like this is. This is very much. Jack sheppard that. I've come to know maybe this is. The bizarro from ruth <unk> ranger like my dad wanted me to be a doctor but i wanted to join me. I just wanted to make toys for children. What if that's his secret backstory sorry that he he decided to be a doctor 'cause his dad pressured him into it. But what if there's a flashback on the cutting room for that jackson wanted to make some toys man yeah i mean it. It would make more sense than the fact that maybe that's why he becomes so i don't know so down and serious is because once walt gets kidnapped and he's like well. There goes my chance of any other kid. There goes my prime market here. I have a baby and that's it on the note of the leaf plane which i totally forgot about but i realized you can have a lot of fun fun re watching the pilot from the point of view that jack sheppard wants everybody to know that he knows how to fly a plane. There are several liberal points over the course of this pilot especially when we get to like the transceiver subjects like yeah. I took a couple of flying lesson so there's going to be this transceiver thing like here's again. I think we're about six sixty thousand feet above the ocean and then the fuselage broke off around four hundred feet below that i just i love this idea that again. Maybe he's a he's a wannabe. The b. toymaker turned doctor but on the side. He took those two pilot lessons and he wants everybody to know about. I think it's no surprise that jack's a little bit of a know it all so for him to be going around around just like sneering at people with his pilot knowledge not not a massive surprise but we diminish the heroic contributions of one jack sheppard shepherd not just what he did during the immediate aftermath of the crash but he and kate are gonna come up with a plan she kate says i saw some smoke in the valley and it seems like that's probably because it was the cockpit but your mind just starts racing mike retroactively who did she did. She see she see the monsters onstage. She sees him smoke monster action in the valley whether or not she sought before they're gonna hear it now because just as jack and kate decide that they're going to go search for the cockpit and the morning earning the monster decides to announce itself the roaring from the jungle and it attracts the attention of all of our characters in a really really amazing way right yeah. I know we're sort of hitting the major points. We should mention that especially when we get back to the beach with jack and kate. There's a bunch of little interstitial scenes. Were you know you have saieed taking the lead on the signal fire. Burning charlie sits next to him. We have hurley getting the the meals ready from the plane. Rose is kissing something and it turns out to be bernard's wedding ring. Who gave it to her before he went to the bathroom because he said his fingers were too swollen and of course john locke after helping that one guy who said ah good for a break and just camped out not speaking to anybody a for a good portion of the episode. He's got a lot going on this whole. Thanks very big dealing work working. I find some oranges. I got a good party trick in mind. He's got some east got some clown. Antics is up his sleeve and we can. We can didn't get to that basically now. There's the flashback the first flashback that we get that we play it a little bit of in our first episode of down the hatch jack is going to meet cindy. The flight attendant who we will see periodically throughout lost we will not see for much of the rest of the first season other than oceanic flashbacks. She's going to <hes> a- as mike described i liked the wink wink free drink that she is going to give jack an extra bottle of booze and he's going to drink like dear old dad he's going to do it and i was gonna say i. I i off little easter egg here. Apparently the russian on jack's vodka bottle translates to rain which is very interesting considering the recurring motif also again here comes noel jack. Oh i believe you might be breaking some f._a._a. Regulations by giving me this extra bottle of booze but you know when all take it. Thank you at least he's. He's not as derisive as the marshall by calling her like sweetheart or kitto or anything like that so good on you jack for doing the bare minimum yeah but jack sheppard is a notorious party pooper. We're a party of five pooper if you will but he likes to rain on everybody's parade in russian or or english or whatever you have but we get this quick flashback. We get to see a bit of the plane breaking up from jack's perspective. It's harrowing. It's terrifying. We get back to the island and everybody's talking. There's some behind the scenes scenes chatter rose mentions that she feels like she she recognizes that sound the monster made from somewhere and then somebody asks her where you from. She says i'm from the bronx which is a clear of the cap to the fact that the monster noises of oak a taxicab in new york city taxi cab if you have not heard that before it's very much the case there's another great moment where you hear sawyer talking about the island as monkey island which i love. I guess that means he is a point and click ed venture game guy. He's a a lucas arts ban sawyer referencing the great monkey island game album same amac's of love same amax that he never pulled out a nickname for somebody calling them guy brush three at any point or or trying to or like they've they ran to the heavy rains any sort of squid and called like we had dealt with not of the tentacle over here right swashbuckling how appropriate you fight like a cow. There's none of that but it's nice to dream and not a surprise. Sawyer is a big star wars guy so he does keep it in the lucas family. The trek trek towards the cockpit is going to begin before it can begin. Kate is going to need some appropriate footwear so we get this really tense. Moment is really grim moment where she has to find a b. o. d. y. s. She has to start through the b. o. d. y. S. as hurley describes body only imagine what they're smelling like at this point not great pretty grim. Kate is going to lift some shoes off of somebody who is no longer going to need them and it's a hard thing for her to do and she's going to look up and she's going to lock eyes with john. Locke who as mentioned is going to do one of the great lost gifts on the twitter verse that i like to use whenever possible john locke terry quinn smiling kate with the orange peel in his mouth just makes you wonder what other vaudevillian skills he has up his sleeve that we just don't get to see don corio and he is not and i do love. Evangeline lilly just gives one look to john locke that says oh so much john locke suffice it to say he's a very unlucky man but maybe that has unfortunately not led him to making great first impressions as he did here with kate or third or fourth or fifth impression some people you know it really violates really varies and it comes to john locke so the mileage begins for jack and kate eight they recruit charlie charlie decides really volunteers. I wanna come with we come to find out and of course having watched the show already. We know that charlie's reason for joining the trek is is he wants to get his drugs precious drugs that are that. He left in the cockpit of the plane as he was in the bathroom in first class. He is very excitedly telling kate that he is drive shaft like you wouldn't have met me before but i am familiar and that's because of the bass player and driveshaft did backing vocals on track. Three's a very big deal yeah and also vincent this entire time is me being from a bush which we can talk about vincent's motives. I know that we don't see too much. I think we get his point of view. You wanna be lost missing pieces well. I do wonder if he's lingering in the jungle because he might not want to go back to his owner and his owner owners owner's father situation. I feel like he's just lingering because he's a huge driveshaft fan. Oh my god that's the bass player from drive shaft. I need to i need to give him. My autograph are far far far far far yeah. He's a big dog. Shaft is really the best cover band in new york. Yeah you are. Everybody is his favorite song for sure and then of course when they do the diaper commercial. You are every puppet every puppies please. Somebody remember that parody when we get closer to the time. Don't don't waste it now. It'll be so much fun when we get to you all every puppies in season to fire plus water put it in the counter in the books starts raining not raining dogs. It starts raining actual rain. It's a sudden downpour. Its end of the world type of weather that everybody is seeking shelter and this is one of the fun things about early. Lost is like watching the camps come together and everybody's like still scrounging for supplies even though the characters many of them feel like they are fully formed and fully realized right from the get go they feel like very lived in human beings the the environment is not for them they have to they have to figure out where they are and what they're going to do so they're like hiding under tarbes. They're they're hiding under the wing wing. They just haven't figured it out yet. Meanwhile john locke loves the rain. He's so anyway he pulls into tasha bedding field and feels the rain on his skin and it's glorious. It's great we go from that. We hear the monster that we see the monster once again. Everyone's like hey something's going on. The trees are moving in something is clearly heading towards the cockpit and honestly for the first time ever mike with the fact that the monster seems like it was just like on the edge of the woods since it's like last night and into this day it's made me wonder for the first time ever since we know that the monster can shape shift. We know that the monster has agency. We know that the monster her is somebody who can con- people you can con sawyer so he can just about anybody. We know that ethan rom is going to infiltrate the group at some point in time. We're just has fan fitting the deleted scene where the monster like shape shifted into some dead body from elsewhere on the island and tried to infiltrate the survivors group and i i i would love to see that in comic book form or something like that. I feel like there's a story was written in spanish or english. I think probably in spanish so yes ah i mean now. It'd be a lot of fun and we'll certainly get into what the monsters motivations may have been in this first episode knowing that it is a sentient being that it is the men in black who has this ultimate scheme to get off the island and instill his brand of evil upon the world the thing about the monster from what i remember is that it can dan take the form of people but it has to be the form of people from somebody's memory so i guess maybe if someone's brother died in the crash they could do that yet and we'll put a pin in that because maybe there's a reason why he killed the pilot and it might be that particular reason all right. We'll get into it so everybody gets to the cockpit. They reached the pilot aka seth norris aka a gregory grundberg. We totally missed. You know a website from season four. Where seth norris's brother chuck is the t._v. Oshii fifty flight and he's like oh my god my brother's dead but that's not right. I need to go find him or the the m._t._v. personality john norris who who knows there's there's many noises norris brothers join up in the season eight or season seven and they decide to take the store. Everybody knows that seth john chuck our brothers and that is a norris tripton nor the nurse trip what's bad triplets coming your way at some point in the future but they reached seth norris the pilot <hes> he reveals that they lost contact with with with people back home that they weren't able to radio round and everything was all fritzy's so they needed to veer off course they wanted <hes> travel back to fiji because that was closer than going to l._a. So they touchdown and figure out what was wrong. So it means that they have crashed somewhere that is fairly fairly close to fiji which mike maybe helps explain why richard alpert and jeff probst look so similar also explains why they were able to build shelter initially out out of some challenge props. I got leftover between seasons. Yes absolutely kate. Go and she's going to look around for charlie who has suddenly gone missing. It turns out not that he is in the bathroom. We know why he is there but she doesn't. She's like what are you doing there. Which i think is pretty rude because like what if we had to go poop. He's the body. What if he's a shy pooper. He doesn't wanna coop on the beach and he thought oh here's a bathroom. Let me i have at least a little bit of privacy to my name. I haven't become a complete savage yet. Kate yeah stealing from jack's party of five pooper routine gene. We're going to see some some bad noises. The noise is we have heard from the night before the noises. We heard just a few moments ago. It's the monster. The monster is gonna show. Go up and everyone's like what's happening here and greg grunberg. I'll just pick out the window because that seems like a safe thing to do as he gets dragged off and turned into paste based on the windshield of the plane that will be promptly rubbed on boo s._c. Hallucinate shannon being killed by the monster. Yeah i mean this is the most gruesome image yet which is crazy because there was a frigging plane. Crash is a pretty bloodless affair ultimately. That's it just that's interesting because i would argue. I guess the gruesome images more so how we end part one but i would say hey the man getting sucked into the the propeller. The engine of the plane might be the more gruesome concerning. We see that entirely on screen. I guess i was just gonna say there's no viscera there's no gore but he did get like probably like exploded and incinerated in a minute so there's not really going to everyone got gary on them that day. Yeah so that's it's the big splash of blood for the pilot so far and of the pilot it is the pilots blood. Everybody runs. Everybody's freaking out. This is crazy. This is scary and everybody's running away. Everybody's everybody splitting up. Charlie falls jack tries to help them and then they run away. Were stuck with kate where we're hanging out with kate and seeing her perspective as everything is going going on with the monster and as the story goes the urban legend mike that we talked about last time. This is where jack would have died. If he had been played by michael keaton they would've surprised killed the main character off halfway through the pilot but he gets to live another day because jack is no longer michael keaton he is now matthew fox and matthew fox is here ear to say yeah and i do love again some nice symbolic character moments here where charlie falls cates natural instinct is to keep running while jack is someone who goes back to save him ca. I think we'll have much more heroic aspects even in the second part of the pilot but definitely by the end of things but i mean solar is going to blatantly underlying jack as the hero wpro in pilot part two. We we see it here where he is definitely sacrificing his own wellbeing to help save charlie to the point where charlie tears out in front of him and it is unknown unknown for a few minutes as to the plight of jack sheppard even though he's not played by michael keaton great when we're when we're considering the end of lost and again these are things that they can figure out in advance they were much more concerned with just making sure that the pilot was filmed and created and good and they were not thinking about the end of the series at at this point but i think as they were starting to evaluate where they were going to wind up at the end of the show and especially if they were breaking down the specific final episodes once they reached that point in planning out season six. I got to imagine they went back. They reviewed the tape. They looked back. They watched that again as john locke would say they looked back at the first episode. What's in here that we can use that will be especially powerful if we if we echo it if we reflect back by the end of the show and i loved it. The first half of the pilot ends is with jack and kate like barry afraid very scared. It's boring rain and they are running away from the monster but years from now both in story time and and in the reality of the filming and the production the release of lost they are going to be once again in the pouring rain of berry courageously charging headlong along at the monster so there's a great great little bit of symmetry right there that i really great we enjoy i love it because again talk about the monsters motivation nations but i just want to spoil my paints too much about that section but i do feel like maybe one of the things the monster dozen. This first episode is sid itself up as this big bad right of like oh. You can't touch me. I can crush everything that you love granted because their candidates from jacob he cannot technically touch them. He can certainly manipulate them into doing things but you can certainly try to flex and give up a big bravado by the end of it you know at this point. They pulled the cork. The men in black is now mortal and that's how jack and kate get one over on him. It's it's sorta like the. I'm not afraid anymore. Type a moment from home alone. I also will say i know that this is supposed to run and conventional for a two minutes. It's but if we're doing our little fan flickinger as you have done beforehand i kind of would've loved if the first part of the pilot ended with the scene of kate hiding in those banyan trees and then counting to five like jack taught her. I don't know that just feels so self contained in tv episode that if we had ended september twenty seconds episode episode on there. I think that would have been incredible. Cliffhanger granted seeing greg greg birds eviscerated body in a tree is stark image to end on but i feel like if you're going for the pseudo horror stuff that we do with the monster especially in this first season that would be a really strong note to i think killing off greg grunberg and ending on that that no is not as powerful as it would have been and i don't think powerful in a good way necessarily as it would have been if somebody is recognizable as michael keaton had been on lost and just got off at the end of the first half of the pilot up a greg grunberg at this time is a fairly notable quality for a lot of the people who will be turning tuning into to lost heroes hasn't happened yet at this point but he has a starring role on alias and i think a lot of the j.j abrams fans are hopping over from that show here to it's like oh. It's the guy from alias oh he was here for five minutes so i think like to show that guy who's like a very friendly face who's very lovable and just about everything he does is <hes> <hes> <hes> just fully gourd out by the end of the episode is a pretty harrowing note to end things on but i hear your point and i love that moment from kate so much <hes> her her recitation of the one two three four five tactic is is really fun but that's not where the episode ends. The rain does stop. Kate leaves <hes>. She's like powered herself backup. She's pumped after self backup to go back out there and go searching for charlie and jack. She finds charlie. It's not jack. She's not satisfied enough with that. She wants to find jack. She says mike and i quote vote. We have to go back for him so your first appearance if we have to go back joe mcnally had written in and said was this was the we have to go back doc from season three. Is it going to be some sort of callback two quick. We have to go back from the jungle or my just over thinking things joe. I think you're just over thinking things but so am i yeah listen. I'd interesting to see how much her tune changes in a few years jacket say that was your thing you send the thing and now you don't wanna come on. It was you. You're the one i'm trying in reference to you here and classic. Jack is just going to do all the credit and he's going to get the iconic line in the future but let the record reflect the first person on lost to say we have to go go back is indeed evangeline lilly as kate austen in the very first episode the very first half of the very first episode. Yes kate had to run so jack could fly a plane applying in case. You guys weren't aware they do go back. They find jack. They find the pilot. The pilot is very very very dead and i'm very sad because greg grundberg is dead in his corpses on the island then the monster always shape shifted into greg grunberg and i'm. I'm sad that we never got a future. Episode of lost or the man in black tried to like con frank lopez. Hey it's me it. Seth seth north jon chuck's brother your friend. We're over backward the old flying days together for urban able to see through his b._s. Yeah yeah i was just say. Franklin pierce was just shooting with a harpoon gun but kyle him right there right then he takes no b._s. When it comes to seeing through the all those monkey shines monkey island shines mike wound that is an excellent <hes> <hes> alternate ending for lost though the how the how this should have ended version of lost the literal how it should have ended version does really really just put a shrine to frankly. I believe they do a mcgrew repair eighty about franklin pitas. If i remember correctly it's amazing. I'm sure we'll get there. When the time comes we're moving moving onto story point two which is an ominous omen for future podcasts good thing the time limit is not a factor here in our discussion of the pyo but we have a vote. We've already passed are lower limit we will do we will have to tighten up for the future and i am sure that we will but story point number. Two is the story of pilot part part two before we get into this. I will say this is a fantastic episode. In general i know a great r._t. Podcast or akiva winokur asked me off line. If this is is our favorite pilots ever eight is for me that being said. Do you have a favorite half because i personally as much as i love part two. I prefer i prefer to emotionally because it's the first episode loss that i've ever watched live so i don't think that i would ever be able to get out of my own way on that but the plane crashes so fricking iconic and the really great iconic moments of part two the two that come to my i guess i mean there's a lot of iconic stuff up in the second half that we're about to get into the polar bear it all and the final scene of pilot part two. I think that the plane crashes tough to argue with take either way. You answered it. I wouldn't be mad at you and i think for me. I guess my cheat of an answer. My real answer would be like unto by head pilot part two would be my answer but my cheat of an answer would be. It's all one episode you know. They broke it up across different weeks. Which i think is an awesome lane yeah like i think they cracked it up somewhere over fiji a._g. And i don't know if that was the right choice. Obviously who are we to second guess in retrospect because last went on to become and astronomical hit not an astronomy hit. It was not a hitting my astronomy lecture in fact that ended my chimichanga. Let's get into the story of pilot part two. We begin again with a flashback charleen kate. They're walking around and try. It was like it was such a coward it was it was terrible. I didn't do anything i puked. That's tangible contribution to the trip in case. I hear not a coward. I think that you're very brave. Brave and then we come to see in flashback form why charlie was on the track he was going in search of drugs and that's obviously a very big part of his art so we're establishing that here in the first half of the or the scene of the second half of the pilot. It's interesting watching charlie's character. You and joe spoke about this really interestingly singley in her watch about how early season to charlie. I totally agree with you at the outset that i think season to charlie. They just had no idea what to do with sort of like. Let's just make him. You know pretty ready demonic because he's really addicted to heroin but in this first episode especially i feel like he used serbs hurley as the comedic relief but maybe it's because he's going on all these tricks that we see him for much more but damn i love how just like sprightly and silly dominic monaghan can be especially in this flashback. You could tell it he's a musician -sition 'cause he's like drumming on the arm rest repeatedly and he's trying to evade as many flight attendants as possible and he's able to successfully no thanks to the turbulence that happens to occur at the same time yeah no. He's very he's very spry much like hurley himself. Yeah exactly various bright guy. We get a couple of beach scenes that are happening. Being including the fact. That walt is in search of his dog. He is looking for vincent. He's not gonna find vincent. He is gonna find handcuffs handcuffs so either there is somebody on this fight who's into some kinky stuff or there is a prisoner who is being escorted on this flight and we see how island gossip works around these parts when we cut from that moment where walt and therefore michael find the handcuffs to the rest of the group all in like this big kerfluffle about the handcuffs and who the prisoner is and it leads to like an actual all out brawl between side and sawyer <hes> who are two men who are going to embark on numerous interrogation slash torture sessions together in the future and it's also a great demonstration of how the two of them fight like most days of the week i i would say saieed is the person who i put my money on to beat anybody in a fight but then you see sawyer trick where he likes scoops up a little handful of sand and tosses it and decides is thank you. That's very sawyer. He's he's very happy to bend the rules. No he fights dirty. You completely fights dirty and i think that's what's gonna make sawyer like prevail in the streets. It's i feel like if they if we get this big u._f._c. title bout of gerard versus ford. I feel like my money's on site just because you said i think his resume speaks for itself itself but if you just get them out in the natural owl sawyers got it i will also say a schoolyard everyone surrounding them in a circle and just not doing anything like it's so funny anyhow it takes jack coming in to break up for michael to be like oh yeah. I guess i should step into yeah. Stop it guys. Stop fighting. You could tell it maybe they had sort of a side bet going hang on to it was gonna crush this at the end of the day. Luckily we will get the chance to to see some more fisticuffs between sawyer inside later on even this very season so we'll talk about the grudge match around to afford vija in this in this skirmish in this first round and we'll get into it more in the eight sounds section and we do get sawyer as being terrible to say but he's also terrible hurley. He's making a really bad first impression with everybody and i think we get. We get our first nickname here right yeah. He calls surly lardo which is very mean feels like a little unoriginal like sawyer usually is going for like the quick names or the pop culture references. His lardo just seems like a low blow. Lardo is a low bow. I don't like that one but it bonsai he'd and heroic together <hes> they have. They're they're fun little moment where they meet each each other. They bond over her. We at first things like oh. My friend was in the army too. He found the gulf war you guys probably you may have known each other and it's it's like yeah maybe but if so it's probably because like either i kill him or he killed my friends or something like that and like it's not going to be the fairy tale ending that you want it to be hurley a <hes> but it's a it's a fun scene between these two actors for sure yeah. It's interesting because it's a dynamic that i don't really remember because i mean they dovetail their storylines and so many different ways i would i'd say in general i guess i've forgotten the beginning especially in these pilot episodes. How saieed is essentially the professor of this group of gilligan's island wannabes with him fixing the transceiver. We're gonna find out a little bit more deeply romantic side obviously with solitary but for now it's all about his technical knowledge and we are a four far stone's owns throw away from the assassin of born again. You know vapid existence of a human that we get later on site you don't get a ton of it but i do love wpro insights relationship when we get to see it and we do get to see some of it in those flash forwards and in that off island time mind that we're going to be building up to long way away for now but i like like that. There's a little bit of the seat of that here in the pilot following. All of this is going to visit jack. She's been talking to saieed. Sites been fixing the radio transceiver that they found in the cockpit. He thinks that he might be able to use it but they gotta get very very high up. There's this really funny shot that i don't think i think this is is one of the moments that doesn't play that. Doesn't that doesn't hold very well. When you go back in your honesty aquino score michael j. aquino's score that's coming in in craning their necks and looking up and it's just cutting back to the island panning up oh man we're gonna have to hike that high aw yeah they. They could have easily put aside effective like <unk> exactly yeah yeah. It's surprising trump exactly exactly but we know that that is going to happen. That kate is going to embark on that mission since she's gonna tell jack. I'm going back into the jungle like hey don't do that. We just survived the monster again. How do you wanna go back into the jungle and he's already trying to tell okay what to do. Classic jack again fully formed from the get go but he's telling her that at the very least if you're going to go in there and if you encounter the monster are you should run cates like that's what i do. That's my move yeah yeah exactly and i i in fact tell her to do so again. In two seasons from now i really like the second half for case character in particular not only are we going to get her flashback but i think it really does establish her as a leading force as well you know i think a lot of people do remember her. Her being tied into jack's character both romantically and just from a mission perspective. There's a lot of stuff to keeton jack do together but sometimes you forget about kate's independence and the fact that at this second mission is really her inside spearheading it jack. Is you know beach bound working on this marshall. His hands are tied our handcuffed as as they were and so this is really an opportunity for her to serve stretch her legs and it also brings up an alternate universe where again if mike keane play jack and died it was assumed that kate was going to step come into this leadership position and i feel like you can see the bones of that yeah exactly just much like adamant. Even the cave you can see some bones lowering through there of what case leadership style how would look like and it's really interesting to watch. I'm very excited. I mean obviously we're gonna be talking about a lot more kate in the next episode especially but it'll be very interesting to track you know when and does when did we lose some of that and it become tied more into jack's character or is that never going to go away and we just might be missing remembering the character. We'll track it so kids get off. We get a couple of other things that are happening. Back on the beach. Jin is like cutting up some sea urchin some any order for everybody which hurley laughs at clarice clair's happy to eat anything and there's a fun moment between jin and claire <hes> where the baby is kicking in jin is not like okay with touching clearest chris twomey. You is like oh god like babies no way my going back for babies at all. I'm gonna i would rather drown than go. Take care of man dark eyeliner. It is honestly i was sitting on my hands for an hour to finally talk about jin and sun because yeah this is. This is a pretty terrible look for jin in most of the pile. I will say it's very complicated more complicated than i remember because what we get these scenes of true to his family's nature he is taking up the fishermen role. He's becoming coming the provider and trying to catch the trance. He's the one who's telling son. You know you must stay with me. He's preventing anyone from talking with sunny. He's making her bundle up her one cardigan button. They probably like jillian degrees outside but he does you know try to serve raw urchin to everyone to keep them satisfied so it's it's a very competent surprisingly complicated characterization for a character who does not much shade to him until we really get into the quad centered stuff for me like i can have. I go easier on jin knowing the full scope of his story and like understanding him a bit more. I think you can also tell that they that the writing team has in mind of more are you a fuller picture of who this man is ultimately going to be even from the early days. I think that they're trying to make some of that stuff. In now. I don't know how much of that actually is on the writing or just the affability of daniel day kim who plays gin and place him so effectively but i think that i'm willing to give him a little a better road just because i know how wonderful he's going to be as we push further into into lost beyond that jack and hurley on the beach and jack basically recruits early as his nurse sends hurley off to go and find drugs that end in miocene and silicon. Apparently those are antibiotics super helpful information to remember in case ace. We find ourselves in a post apocalypse. Mike which i feel like you know who knows certainly possible. Just remember the miocene in the silliman's. That's that's useful intel. We also early. He's not so good with blood. <hes> he's gonna pass out on the marshall during surgery <hes> thankfully this will improve with time but it is a very funny scene with darcy flattening out the marshall will hear more of that when we get to the eight seven i was actually speaking of blood another great thing that i loved about the the plane crash onto good too far back is production of really interesting thing purposely so inputting everyone in a lot of whites and darks and basically no red not even in the oceanic logo. Is there any red and that's to really make jack's wound standout when he's finally done with as you know he he's done with his shift for right now of beachside emergency care and he takes off his jacket and we see the red seeping through. It's just a really small note on color. Themes teams that i thought was really cool but i'm glad you didn't see it because he'd already had a bit of a walker avoiding that giant explosion from the plane wing falling down that just would have been. I think on top of that very unfortunate cake all right. Let's get into the into the track and the trek begins. Initially it's going to be kate and saieed and then a bunch of other people are going to start latching touching on it begins with boone the after mentioned and i'm sure we will talk about him. In great detail own we started handing out m._v._p. And l._v. awards <hes> the the the boone and shannon the ending of it all as shannon's crying. She's looking at a dead body. She's like wallowing in her trauma and otherwise be in quote unquote worthless according to boon it was so harsh and he says to her at one point. I one of my favorite things to say when it comes to lost. I i have a good friend who i quote lost lost back and forth with all the time. We always shattered each other okay shannon. What are you thinking which is just so annoying and very annoying and i'm going to out myself of as a bit of a boon defender later on but this is indefensible. He's such an asshole shannon yeah. This is not very fun and i guess you know it does tie into everything tippy fair before this moment she had been pretty much in denial about everything you know her being like i'm not gonna eat chocolate. I'll wait till you get on the rescue boat. You know they they had blackbox dingus. They're going to figure out where we are now. I think it's finally starting to reality starting to set in for her but boone is at the end of his rope here. Maybe it's due to the fact that she kind of gave him weird blue balls by the time they were getting on the flight. If you will but yeah so so maybe that's service purpose tied into their relationship but yeah i mean i would say only a step above jin sun in terms of relationship dynamics are billion chain right now. Yeah i mean they're coming being in with some very very very awkward baggage and a lot of it because they they've packed quite a bit very materialistic this as <hes> yeah yeah yeah so. They're going to join the hiking party because shannon's like. I'm gonna prove my worth. I'm gonna show you boone into boone's going to tag along as well and charlie's like yeah. I'll come because shannon shannon is attractive and i would like to nick and that's like literally charlie's reason for going. They must have ran out of oceanic water bottles because boy is thirsty which is weird. He's gonna find another love on the island so it's very weird. There's like oh all right well. It's been a day. Let me start thinking about hitting on women now. I think what's weirder about it. Too is is he is he's just survived. The monster attack he already has the heroine. I believe he is presently on heroin in in this moment and he's going to decide that shannon is so attractive that he is going to risk life and limb by going back into the jungle just to hang out with shannon and for a little while longer maybe an early sign that they did not always know what to do with charlie pace but i'm glad he's along the track because ultimately he is going to deliver a very area kinda line which we will hear we will see sawyer is going to join the co- the crowd as well after he is reading his own sawyer letter to himself off mike. That's what we do is writers. We read our own work that we do nothing to do. Here might as well do editing see if i can publish this when i get back unpublished still has not yet met the man that that letter is intended for so long you revise and you revise revise you get it right so i suspect it. Do you think in two thousand nineteen sawyer would self publish on amazon his own soil yes yes yes i think so i think that he would he would sell it as an e book for sure very technologically savvy guy knows the market very well but he's joined crewe. He's going to have the great line. We're says we're k- it's like oh you decided to join he goes. I'm a complex guy sweetheart. Which i've always said is complicated guy sweetheart which is wrong. Apparently that's a fairly common mistake. I tried to forget at that. Try to get that right moving forward. We got it right here today. <hes> and it leads us into the hike up the hill. Which is a scene that you probably remember. It's very epic. It's got the hollywood vines theme song which the great alex g not g aquino has used as the base for our own down the hatch theme song here so you will not hear it again in this podcast but you will hear it every week for the next couple of years speaking speaking of sawyer just briefly. I feel like we get a lot of like okay. This takes place in two thousand and four nece from las which is who is timeliness. The one exception might be sawyers wardrobe. Did you take note of what what sawyer was wearing his crash clothing choice josh he had like a t shirt and a long sleeved shirt underneath attention any logos if there's something to note but that's but that just feels like i feel like i haven't seen anyone where that's at least like fifty years that was very much like the skate park look when i was a teenager the long sleeve shirt underneath with t. shirt on on top. I was never cool enough to pull off specifically but it just shows how trendy sawyer is he was a you know maybe he saw tony hawk in the window inside. It's replicating. Maybe that was his next khan on to become a pro skater. He's a regular bammer jared fan but i i would i would trip my father but god sawyer most likely to be part of the jack ass crowd of of the of the velocities that we've met met thus far. He's eventually going to get into like button-down mode clean up his act. He also often we'll just say. I don't even need a shirt sawyer. Splashes prove uh-huh sawyer and this is the steel. Everyone's asthma medicine exactly back at the beach. We see what he's on a break from reading comic books. It's about polar bears. He meets john locke. John locke spoils the basic premise of lost we will revisit that mobile says wanna know a secret i think so i think he tells on the ending. You wanna know a secret. You're not going to be on the show klay. What leaves already know what's going to happen. I'm good. I'm out exactly speaking of polar bears. The gang finds one in the jungle title at the time. It's very weird hard to explain. Why is there a polar bear in the tropical island here now at the benefit of knowing that the dharma initiative is thing they brought polar polar bears the island. It's a little less weird. It's still somewhat of a challenge to explain to people who have never seen lost also. Do you think that they ate the polar bear. I feel like i would eat the polar bear. I don't know considering hurley turned down the ross sea urchin. I don't know how much he's really hungering for polar bear because it's douro it's too early. It's too early to the polar bear but there's the gun is involved in sawyer has revealed. He has a gun. He found martial nicked it off the martial. The martial was hurt. He doesn't need need it. Kate knicks the gun off of sawyer. She pretends she has no idea how to use it. As a lie she is lying is one of the many kate lies told he knows how to use as a gun and she disarms issues like how do i do. This inside walks through it. She disarms the gun she hands the pieces to both side and sawyer find out flashback that it is kate who is the prisoner and that ominous revelation leads us into the final act of the episode in which we hear from danielle rousseau for the first time and she's been broadcasting for sixteen years yes that is right sixteen years and five months the same number of stars that you should leave us when you rate and review you down hatch on your podcast app of choice and it leads us to guys where we and mike that's the pilot that's more confetti rained down because he said the other line guys well oh and that is the story of pilot part two so we are over an hour into the podcast and we have made it through the first two story points of the first of our four segments here on down the hatch. How are we doing so far. Everyone i listen that's it. I'm answering on behalf of everybody. I'm doing fantastic. Okay usually talking about one episode. This was it to super size episodes. I know that episode pilot part two was thirty nine minutes instead of forty two but it's almost an hour and a half of loss that we were just talking to a lot happen. It's a lot there's a lot of establishing stuff that we want to talk about and we're going to extend that right now. We have story point three. He is reserved for just like some character. Connection takeaways dramatic takeaways longview takeaways. What what some of the stuff that the pilot established for us with the benefit of knowing. We're lost goes that. We want to talk about here. Frankly i think we talked about a lot of that stuff in the recapping of these two episodes. I don't think we have to spend a lot of time here but there anyway additional stuff like for are you being somebody who loves jin so much and you're looking at the fatherhood themes year on lost and looking at what it's going to be like once claire has aaron and tracking that story worry and knowing that john is going to be present for the birth of aaron. Was that fun to see that scene and to see that moment between jin and claire yeah because i mean i think initially initially it was not necessarily him being like oh not kids. It's more so him being like. I come from this culture where it's very conservative. We don't usually touch pregnant woman's belly the people that we aren't married to but that's another great sort of thing about las we talked to us in our preview episode about how this section of people really is a good cross section of just different backgrounds around different cultures different ethnicities and so you know you have the more western clare being like oh yeah touch the baby it's totally fine and genuino coming from this more eastern culture what you're saying. I usually do this and the fact that there is such a language barrier is going to be very fun as well. It's also fun that you know. Michael is uh asking son where her son is considering the connection that they are going to have later on the season. <hes> this isn't a character connection thing but i think it's very interesting how kate kate when talking about the crash which when we see her flashback i still think the thing that especially holds up is that effect of the entire back half of the the plane falling off. It's still crazy to think that two thousand and four c._g._i. But it's still looks pretty damn good and really realistic of what she talks about the crash scene. She says i couldn't bring myself to look back and i think that's a really big thing with her care a lot of other people as well this idea of making a new start for yourself on the island again. It's this idea of boola ross. We're going to experience this with her with lock. Especially even someone like with saieed who might have been so stigmatized due to its previous occupation in the real world and nassar has an ability to make a new name for himself contrast that with someone like jack who's jumping into a heroic role that he might do so in his real life or someone like sawyer who just keeps on conning for the first season as well so i think that's an interesting theme that i started to see throughout these first couple of episodes. This is you know when it comes to this idea of plane crash who settling and being like great all right. We're gonna move on here. We focus on being rescued but i'm also going to use it as an opportunity between to reinvent myself kids coming from war criminal circumstances where obviously she does not want to go back to the life that she had but i thought it was a nice little thematic point to emphasize what you mentioned about the is before and that's something to watch for through so many of these episodes here in the in the early going lost are going to open that way or we're going to be focused just on somebody's face. We're going to focus on somebody's eye. The eyes the window to the soul we know that the soul is going to be such a pivotal thing on lost is going to end and on the departures of souls into a new plane of existence <hes> so so that's definitely something to keep tabs on as well and i just love the way that that the that the first episode and especially the first few minutes of the first episode really do mirror the ending of lost <hes> <hes> there's not just jack's eye opening slash closing in the finale and him being in the bamboo forest and waking up and vincent being there share. Those images are very very obvious but there's also the fact that like jack runs out and sees a plane crash in all of these people are gathered together for the first time ever ever and in the very final episode of lost we will see a plane flying away and many of these people are on that plane and the ones who did not survive and make it to that plane are we're gonna find each other again anyway so i think that just knowing where lost ends the book ending quality of this show again not a preplanned thing certainly at this stage each of the game but something that i think works really well the deeper they got into the writing for for for me anyway and i know not for everybody but for me i think is is is really fun stuff. It's a really cool. It's the opposite of a mirror but to see you know how these character start completely in their own business running around screaming. You know jack china rally people together but they're pretty much all in panic mode ends with all of them sitting in a church. You know l. looking at each other. They fundamentally affected each other's lives and they're ready to move on together. It signifies simultaneously you know the journey they went on but also coming full circle at the same time and true laws fashion. It's both which and somehow it's not paradoxical at the same time all right so let's move onto story point four because i think we talked a lot about at the character connection to the takeaways the steph and we'll we'll talk about it more as we go through the podcast for sure but we gotta keep this plane from crashing from crashing one crashes rashes enough but let's get into some of the production stuff in how the plane crash came together story point four were pulling the curtain back with some details from the ben behind the curtain in who has gathered a lot of really fascinating material including how the plane wreck came to life. Ben mortell writes that to ensure the plane wreckage seemed seemed realistic. The producers purchased a real lockheed. L one zero one one from a plane cemetery in the bobby desert plain only cost thirty five hundred dollars but the shipping costs four hundred and fifty thousand dollars a hefty penny mike bloom. I mean they had to ship it. All all the way to hawaii which a lot of ben stuff is coming from this <hes> little d._v._d. Charette called designing disaster which is entirely about the set design for the plane crash. It's a big investment considering that. We're going to use this from now on until we start moving into the hatch. Which is when things become a bit more divided. Did i highly recommend people. Check it out. It's on youtube. I think it's about like eleven minutes long but it is absolutely fascinating and yeah basically what they did was. They found this l. ten eleven plane. They cut it up. They put it on a bunch of different freighters. They shifted to hawaii and then they had to reassemble it in a manner of speaking resemblance enough that it looks like you know a relatively solid plane crashed on the beach yeah and i mean there's still wreckage or i think at the time they had. They had a lot of this. That was still out there. <hes> in watching this episode on amazon they've got like the x ray feature where you could see some trivia and just like continuity goofs along the way a one of the notes is that as people were flying into hawaii and flying into honolulu during the production of lost they would see like this this slice ace of beach that had a plane wreck on it and people would have to the pilot would have to come in over the over the loudspeaker. Don't worry about that. It's a show it's t._v. Show it's not real. Oh everything's fine they have pulled the bernard and made like fake out of logs and just put that out the bottom to make them know that hey it's not real just so you know it's august. It's all fine of they had to be careful about what they shipped to hawaii. They couldn't ship the tail for instance they just shipped the parts that they needed from the plane so they ship the cockpit section and the main fuselage at the two separate locations when seen from above the fuselage crash site it does look very real set decorator rick romer he verse versa he researched debris fields so that he was able to create a realistic version of the way in which the wreckage would be strewn across the beach in the event of a crash but once j.j abrams got to set set he asked for pieces to be moved around to create the most dynamic scene composition and i think that that's fine right. I mean we're not experts on debris fields. I appreciate the effort that goes into that and getting close to that right is that's going to help lend some authenticity to the moment but i think you have to you have to the storyteller the freedom to arrange the set in a way that is going to tell the most compelling narrative story. You have to have that little bit of wiggle room. Not the plug different podcast. We do in our network at work. Yeah i mean i would say hopefully they're not too many jacks out there who are like well. I'm an expert. I know about plane crashes and i don't know about that. I mean for what it's worth. It does look super realistic to the point where i believe they actually talk about you know warnings from the air. I believe actually around the area. They had to put up signs that were like hey. This is a set for the movie because i can imagine driving down the beach in hawaii and seeing a plane crash. You'd be regarded to call every emergency service possible so again. It's an investment vestment considering that. They used it for a super long time and i think it was you know sturdy for a reason. Maybe not so much that wing they pretty much got rid of that immediately but it's just truly remarkable to see how this all came together and apparently under such tight schedule as well like i think they put it together like only a few days before they ended up starting production on it they i didn't have a lot of time one of the one of the great takeaways from watching this on amazon and seeing the goofs in the trivia. This is fun. This is just like a fun thing to be a little nerdy about. There's what they call a revealing mistake. I love the way that amazon bills this stuff. This is a revealing the stake when the scene scene where the engine explodes when gary troup get sucked into the thing when the scene with the engine explodes a slow down you could see a black object yeah down down and hitting the engine. Some fans believe that this may have been the monster destroying the engine but the producers have confirmed that it's merely c._g._i. C._g._i. rendering error and that what was meant to be debris flying away from the exploding engine instead became an object hitting it. I would like to believe i believe in my head candidates. The monster in my head can in the monsters like oh. No sorry gary troup. Will i believe truth was a landed down when jerry yeah exactly they're zero stars. <hes> blows them up. I wake to imagine that the monster sure was excited to meet some new friends. He gets bored. Yeah exactly he's showing off and he's playing new things to play with. He just plays it very listen. He's not he. He lost his senate partner since he became the smoke monster so maybe he's his sense of plays a bit different than what it used to be so another bit of trivia about the plane asper asper amazon for the first flashback in the series set on board the plane before it crashes the interior fuselage's set was the same one that was used in two thousand and four feature film soul plane. Oh have you ever seen so playing. I have indeed it's been a very very. Are you going to buy yes yeah. I'm thinking of bonus podcast. I remember because my dad specifically said like oh. This seems like airplane you know the suckers abrahams suckers movie the it was not at all but we still watch it nonetheless yeah i mean the survivors of oceanic eight one five are going going to meet in some sort of sideways afterlife church that perhaps we could call the soul plane if you if you wish like i won't say it unless snoop dogg as is the pilot that what's that's what makes it true. Soul snoop dogg versus frank lopez in a pilot off. I don't know who's odds. I like i think ultimately you have to go snoop dog and i guess i hate to bet against my man frank laperrouze but mars the floor alert. I don't i think pretty sure it. No you know what i'm pretty sure. He comes back to life when the plane lands correctly yeah that's right. I think you're right about that. Comes down the hat's where you will get all the soul playing trivia. You did not know that you needed nor did you need. The pilot is fantastic. It won a bunch of awards is some more behind the scenes intel intel for you. Won a number of awards nominated for others. They won several emmys. The episode won an emmy for directing j.j abrams single camera editing for mary jo markey archy music composition for the great michael g aquino and special visual effects for the special effects team it was also nominated for writing and sound editing and i don't offhand no what it was up against but did deserves off the quds deserves absolutely everything even that black thing josh should we revoke the emmy based on that the truth about the black thing in the propeller no because we can now like explain it retroactively as that was smokey mic smoker sohn that was <hes> <hes> that was not lock us just having a great time and hanging out with the oceanic survivors and that was all right emmy retained for emi retained. There's some notes. It's about the jungle trek in the very first meeting between j.j abrams and damon lindelof. They fleshed out an initial vision for the trek to higher ground which included all of the series regular is going up to higher ground and returning to the beach to discover that all of the rest of the survivors from the fuselage were gone. It'd been kidnapped by the others. The scene gene changed before production began but it was the genesis of the idea that at some point the others would be looking to kidnap some of the survivors for some purpose <hes> salvin that would have been pretty freaky and to. I think it would have been a little too much too quick. I think much like the michael keaton thing. I think this is a good idea but it's it's. It's it's probably a lot. There's still much of the survival aspect thing that they can be playing with early on before they get into before they get into the takes about half the season to get into that stuff. I would say they essentially cop that onto. The taylor storyline wasn't everybody at once but that's where sydney and the the kids disappear and then we start sorta hemorrhaging people so i guess they sort of use threads of that in future storyline all right. Let's get into the eight sounds segment of this podcast even for those who need refresher. This is the part we are replaying parts of the pilot parts of the episode that we're going to be talking about on any given week. He's or sounds from the episode whether they're <hes> there are scenes. We want to talk about more in depth. Just seems that are so great that we just want to replay our personal favorites anything along those lines and we've already played radio little bit from the plane crash at the top of the podcast so we're not going to revisit that but i do want to go through the one two three four five story between jack and kate because it's awesome <hes> apparently this is evangeline lilly and matthew fox's this this was the audition scene for jack and kate and to know that into to have that energy brimming beneath the scene. I think is i. It's really fun to re. Examine it so let's revisit the one two three four five story. I might throw up on you. You're doing fine. He don't seem afraid at all. I understand. I fear sort of an odd thing. When i was in residency. My first solo procedure was spinal surgery on a sixteen year old kid girl and at the end after thirteen hours i was closing up and i accidentally after girl sack threat at the base of the spine raw nerves come together membrane is finished tissue so it ripped open pinch nerves just spilled out of her like angel hair pasta spinal fluid flowing out of her tara was just so crazy so real and i knew i had to deal with it so i just made a choice choice at let the fear in let it take over. Let it would stay but only for five seconds. That's all i was going to give so. I started to count to three for wiscon- went back to work soda up and she was fine me run for the door no. I don't think that's true not running. Now i mean josh. I am hungry for angel hair pasta. I ah i hate angel hair pasta so do i i really do you'll hear plus. I really do and i think a lot of it is tied into the way that jack sheppard describes like the nervous was balling out of of this woman and looking like angel hair pasta and when he talks about like the spinal fluid with it to think of like angel hair alfredo i ah don't eat alfredo sauce. Angel hair pasta is this completely ruined angel hair pasta for me and i hope it does not for you the listener right now. It reminds minds like i feel like jack has spent a lotta time doing haunted houses of like region to this bowl of grapes i mean eyeballs and here's a bulletin nerves i mean and when we eventually have the down the hatch halloween party. We absolutely have to have angel hair pasta on the menu. I think is is the only way eight to fly if you have the nerve to eat it <hes> but much like kate says at the beginning of that clip. I think i'm gonna throw up on you when i when i hear about your angel hair pasta nerves i there's just too much. We didn't wasn't in the clip but i've loved that jack sort of like courses kate to get get into this sewing job. I being like hey did you ever patch a pair of jeans up. This is completely similar. Ben martell notes has anybody in the history of time ever patched the pair of jeans. No isn't the style the exact opposite to like rip. Your gene secrete could use my back open a little bit more would be. I think it'd be really cool. Look well. Then kate responds with oh. I did the drapes in my apartment which we're gonna get her flashback episode next time i really wanna pay attention to those drapes because i wanna see under craftsmanship and how that translates to what she did on jack yeah. I wonder if we if i haven't gone and checked out the drapes at ray mullins farm. We'll have to we'll have to we'll have to see next week. Let's go to sound number two and there's some dialogue here but it's not really the dialogue we i want you to focus on. Let's roll the clip and then we'll explain what it is. We were just listening to jack right. He's got vincent vincent it. Did anybody say that yeah <music> terrific very terrific the first appearance of the smoke monster on lost and so many people get involved in it and i and i love that aspect of it that it's the first night it's like hey welcome to the island. I know that plane crashes pre-traumatic. Guess what's more traumatic. I'm here. I'm this very scary sounding thing. That's probably very big and may even be a dinosaur but isn't actually a dinosaur. It's actually a lot worse than that and you're on my island and enjoy that i i know michael's gonna say that doesn't sound natural. It's put it sounds so bestial to me just listening to it like almost wailed cries in their mix with like you said some dinosaur noises thrown in there to make it almost sound maybe overly naturalistic i love the way this season's done as well because it really has all the our main uncast slowly congregating together on the beach and like you said they all were sorted there in the crash but this is the first time they're all turned towards a specific target read and now they all know no matter whether you think rescue's coming or if your resolute on getting this transceiver or if you're just relishing the island like lock you're all transfixed on this one thing and it's a grand unifying force. It's such a cool moment especially to finish off. This is what finishes off that monolithic twenty twenty two minute first act and oh my god. This is the thing that takes you into commercial and says i need to stay tuned through two minutes of ads and find out what happens after it's a hell of an act break. It's just so cool to have the monster so prominent in this first episode knowing that the monster is gonna be such a prominent part of the show especially in the endgame so i i love it. I we're gonna talk even more. We've got some good feedback about the monster but i just wanted to hear that because i love hearing like the cab sands but it does have a mechanical quality too but like you said there's just something so primal about it. As well frigging love the monster i think ultimately and even even more so reinforced after my last watch i love what they do at the monster. I think it's great. I know a lot of people don't think so. I'm really excited to get into all of the monster stuff making music. Let's let's get into sound number three or you mentioned it before but charlie pace wants to know if he might i know him from somewhere. Let let's see his own little making small talk with kate on their way to the cockpit. Ask you something may. I'll be filled waiting ever met anywhere now. Dan likely right yeah conkrite place it now. I can't think i know do you ever body only about. It never heard that so i've heard it. I just don't know what the heads us driveshaft rain second solar finland driveshaft the band the band you were in dr shot. I am in drive shot. I played pace. Thanks charlie trie backing beth would freak. She loved you. Gotta give me best number. I'll call. I'd love to drive south. You got to keep moving it together. In the middle of a comeback yeah well now comebacks not going so well. Apparently the greatest hits album is going to clean it up. I think unfortunately charlie showed why he only does backing vocals with that falsetto. Oh i don't know what the history of you all. Everybody is hopefully we can report on that and in deeper detail and we get to the charlie flashback a few weeks from from now but i can't imagine like at this point by the time that they were filming the pilot. Did they have like the fully rendered you all everybody like written and recorded and everything or did they like put it. In dominic monaghan hands like you have a song called you all everybody and you basically just say those words over and over again so whatever theme you wanna sing to that. There's a chance is your artist moment. Dominic monaghan is drive shaft and he is he is drive shaft. He's great. They're still great great. So the mountain comeback. I also love the bring these brandishing at that second. Tour of finland must've been like one for the ages josh if he's still holding onto that ring the super bowl ring an effort to i mean charlie char- charlie says he's he's driveshaft and kate doesn't know who driveshaft really is is personally but she knows that her friend beth is a big drive shaft fan and beth would be freaking out with charlie pace right now. That's another lie right. That's like had on the on the fly. Lie doesn't have a friend named death was a huge driveshaft band. There's no way these us trying to like. I don't know placate him. Oh yeah i've heard of you. You're not the jefferson starship of lost trying to sound like a normal human being like a civilian of the world. It's like when with steve carell grown the forty year old virgin talks about bags of sand like you're not fitting in with people. We know you're the fugitive. If there's if there's a piece of pop culture that i don't like like oh yeah my friend beth oh my gosh. She loves that. I'll let her know that. I just met the writer behind that big big fan all right. Let's get into these next two. Oh sounds. I know that we're going to want to explore in both of them. Similar themes that are emerging but one of the things that's great about loss just generally generally but especially the early goings this collision of personalities in this collision of world's people who come from very different places very different backgrounds whether it's like their professions and their circumstances mhm stances their ethnicities races the countries that they come from the lives they've led and then in the ways in which those lives when you strip those details away at at their core ended up being very similar but it takes a long time to get to that nerve center to the angel hair pasta of these people's lives at at the at the start very much even through much of the show it's about those surface level conflicts and why these people can't always get along so easily and it's embodied lead really well in this sound clip which comes to us from the second half of the pilot guys come on they breaking up fish overpe more impasse everyone what you told me that i crashed the plane go on what is going on. Not my kid on on these antonio and this guy was sitting in the back row business class. The whole got his hands folded underneath a blank and for some reason just pointing witness out the guy next to him didn't make it so much. Maybe you don't think i saw you come on found the transceiver but it's not working. Can anybody help yes. I might be wait perfect. Let's trust this guy. Hey we're all in this together. Man's feature there with a little shut up lardo. Hey break whatever you say. You're the year what i love about. This is against against it's sort of like the inversion of expectations which lost is really well. We're going to see it especially in a couple of episodes with walkabout or even later on in this pilot where it turns out that kate you know this <hes> heroin that we think has been you know good and you know force of nature or a forced to get them out of nature as it were turns out to be a criminal middle the entire time. I love the fact that i think in the outside world the perceptions of these two guys will be completely flip flopped right. I talked about this in our preview show that this was even three years after nine eleven. I do think there was a lot of islamaphobia hanging in the air a little bit of nervousness when you go to the airport and you see see someone like sii to the point where they mention he gets pulled out of line even though he didn't do anything i think of is because of shannon. I believe it was the one that reported his bag that he left behind there. Taste still wind up together in the afterlife. I wonder if saieed with think differently. Peacocks are roll the tape you that moment like you. Shed had such a huge <hes> such a meek you but it's so interesting because again i feel like in the outside world fluid serve take source point of view and vilnai saieed put. It's completely lately flip-flopped here and again. It goes back to this idea of not looking back. Whether you're sitting on a plane crash or you're just looking ahead in your life that you know in here. Everyone sort of equal as turley says we're all in this together and as a result it's sawyer who's in the wrong and he's building. Vilnai sites are becomes the hero of this episode. He's the one who fixes the transceiver. He's he's the one who helps get them up to to hear the message. So i just love the reversal of expectations from the role. These people's played in the outside world to the roles. They play on the island. Well i think also the thing thing is is that the oceanic fifteen survivors are to a person basically and correct me. If i'm if i'm overlooking someone are fundamentally good people a when they see a guy being like an out and out racist to this man who seems to be very helpful. He's already like and you watch sites actions. The first part of the pilot jack gets the credit for being the leader pretty quickly but cites the guy who gets people mobilized and gets people going like from the from the gecko saieed is a is a very important person in this society and who the hell is soya other than this agitator whose going around starting starting fights calling people names he any higher ground like if there are like closet racists in the oceanic fifteen background players they're. It's all very quiet. The second net sawyer starts mocking hurley. It's like nobody's on board to be mocking hurley and like you even hear it in the in the moment that sawyer says shut up large gasps in the crowd or like this guy is such an asshole and it is it's it's not only the social social commentary and i think this is really important stuff in two thousand and four. It's very important now as well but it's very important in just a few years removed from from nine eleven and a lot of what was going on in america as you sketched out already and a lot of stuff that is really sadly still very relevant today that is going on on. I think it's powerful to to replay that powerful to think about who sawyer becomes and the elements of redemption that he undergoes. I think it would be worthwhile to like track. His shift like wendy's sawyer segue from being like out jag off <hes> like out and out like racist blowhard to being somebody who is like more of a han solo type. I i think that's going to be interesting to see where if there's like a notable point where lost makes that pivot or if it's something that like is seamless enough to the point that we will even like not what note the transformation you know what i mean like they happen in in a way that were just kind of guided through and we don't we don't fully get the segue will keep a lookout on but i mean you bring up a really interesting note that ties very nicely into another conversation that you're going to have with some kate thrown in for good measure as they're trekking backing up to get the transceiver up and running. Where did that come from probably bear village. How the hell do i know the gun yeah. I got it off one of the bodies one of the body yeah one of the bodies people don't carry guns on planes u._s. Marshals sweet cheeks six. There was one on the plane. How do you know that so a guy lying there with an ankle holster so i took the gun thought it might come in handy. Guess what i shot a bear. So why do you think he's a martial khlifan badge. I took that to thought at school. I know who you are. You're police found the gun on a u._s. Marshal yes. I believe you did you what it was because you were the one. He was bringing back to the states. They'll turn cops on you. That's how you that was the son of of me as i am pursue fine. I'm the criminal you're the terrorists we can all play a part. You want to be a gun. Pull a trigger. Don't use the gun. You wanna take part. There's a button on the grip pushed that ebola check magazine still around in the chamber chamber group who the top of the gun sure girls. I it's another example though i mean it's the the conversation that's happening here. It's obviously it's after the polar bear at all. The polar forebears dead so you're has presented. He has got killed. The thing people are wondering why i shot a brick and bear the bear from bear village and people were weirded doubt about that but the more pressing concern becomes. How does this guy who has proven himself to be an untrustworthy schmuck. How does he have a gun and this is alarming and maybe we should views views the situation and it s crates those old tensions from earlier in the episode between side and sawyer and sawyer. Has this great comment about fine on the prisoner. You're you're the terrorists we can all play apart. We all play a role and it does speak to a lot of like the archetypal qualities to some of these characters. That's at play in the early going of lost lost and even within the context of the scene. The idea of playing role here comes kate coop ways apart. She plays the part of the damn. Zone distress the innocent person who doesn't know oh how to use a gun. I want to take it apart. I don't trust this guy. Somebody walked me through it. Kate knows how to use a gun. Kate knows exactly what she's doing. She's been. She's a bank robber. We're going to see that like ten episodes from now. I think it's actually twelve episodes but something like that and so she's playing a role as well so it's just it's just all swirls together so well. The medically for for the long haul lost to have this stuff so established so early on is really really great yeah but i really like about it is like you said it's a really nice representation of how at the surface these are all sort of archetypes that they're playing. You know i'm pretty sure when the marketing was coming out and people were getting to know these characters like oh yes sawyer. He's you know the southern asshole well. Here's jin. He's the he's the korean asshole. Here's hurley. He's the he's the comic fat guy it seemed like everyone had like two or three adjectives to describe them a when getting to know them through fashion flashbacks and their behaviors on the island really paint them as much more deep characters and in some cases completely subverted characters from what we know about them off violent and it just shows how the characterization of loss really is an iceberg. It's actually oddly enough reminded what if something shakespearean from sawyers line. It's the infamous all the world's stage speech from as you like it where you have this guy who actually is sort of sawyer. Ask ask in jake we just lazing about moping about the state of life but also when you think about the larger game that the men in black and jacob or playing to the point where jacob brought these people to the island these are all poor players who fruits it who've frets instructs their ways around the stage and they're essentially you know characters in this game back and forth between the two and so in a manner speaking even though they're defying these roles they they are still playing these roles because they bid cast all automatically from their name being inscribed in a lighthouse yeah who do who there's this mystery lighthouse somewhere the island where everybody's name in this weird little cave thing as well <hes> trying to think about how all these people were many of them have already met jacob to you just been touched by not an angel just an island man not all of them but many of them have been established to have met jacob at some point in time already at this point <hes> speaking of jacob. Let's talk about jacob's successors <hes> it's it's you know successor plural well. It's very temporarily gonna be jack sheppard before for the long haul. It will be hugo radius. <hes> it's this next sound. It's the first really meaningful for extensive scene between jack and hurley and i think it's it's great because it says a lot about both of these characters. Let's let it rip sure he's out. He's out won't wake up in that thing. I don't hey guys you. Wake your rescue plan. We say hey yeah he's out. So what do you look. It's unlikely the regained consciousness. The pain might bring him around and if it does. I need your own down. I'm not so good around blood. Don't look yeah but i'm not not so good around blood. Do the best you can okay. Don't you know those strips the just hand me. The strips gets bleeding set. What's going on here me too strips. Give it to even think about it early early. Hey dan it just so good. It's it's great. It's such a great moment. He's working on the marshall. The marshalls passed out. He needs her. We depend the guy down hurley born jack. I'm not so good with blood. Blood starts gushing out curly really passes out and now the whole thing is just totally and it's it's so great so these characters if like jack just like expecting so much from everybody ignoring what people are saying hurley's literally saying like this is a blood thing. I'm not really the guy that you want here now. You're going to be fine. I believe in you and enron just does exactly as he promised no definitely gonna pass out the second. I see that flood but even just like the screaming at the guy hey are you awake. Hey let's we're safer for rescued. There's just so much about his personality baked into that so much so much about their respective leadership styles we know that they're both going to be a central leaders jack as a as a leader as a very front and center aspect of lost for so much of it but one of the great sweet surprises of the ending of lost is that hurley ends up being the man in charge of the island. Don't think that it's something that you really think to track on your first. Journey through lost is hurley as a leader. There are moments where like retroactively you look back and go wow that's an incredible leadership moment for hurley but i just don't think it's something you pay attention to a ton so i want to pay attention to that stuff as we got through because i think there's a lot of great moments of just leading by example and leading by personality affability that hurley does that in hindsight of course he's the best leader of the group of course. He's the right person to lead this island into a new age. Yeah i mean he is quite literally. The bleeding heart of the island and hopefully hurley did not pass out from hearing that on the podcast yeah in terms of endgame stuff. Let's go to our penultimate sound here. Let's hear it from our man john locke we joked about uh uh spoiling the premise of lost four wall. I think that's probably a pretty extreme way of framing it but he really just basically tell you what losses about out in the very first episode. What is it like checkers now. Really it's a better game than checkers. You play checkers with your pop. No i live in australia with my mom to have no accent yeah. I know we move. She got sick. She died a couple of weeks ago. You're having a bad month. I guess backgammon's the oldest came in the world. Archaeologists found sets when they excavated the ruins of ancient missile taymiyya five thousand years ago. That's older than jesus. Christ dabbed isis though but there's were made of plastic their dice were made a bone two players two sides. One is light wall. They wanna know a secret and the secret is you're gonna you're gonna grow up really fast way too fast. You're going to age h out of the show and you're going to disappoint millions and millions of people back home because we'll never understand why you are this weird animal talking telepathic ethic little cool dude all right. Let's play and go <hes>. This is this is i this is the first time locked talks on the episode which i think is i really liked the choice of restraint on the writers part because he is so weird it somehow so mystical even in that first episode where he really he is booming to the beat of his own drummer. Even if we don't know exactly what's going on with him like you said in this i alluded to this before you know with the ultimate stage speech that that is essentially talked about how they're the stones and it's not i feel like it's not coincidental that he talks about the dice being made eight of bones elements being derived from the people are being used to play this game and again. That's sort of what the man in black and jacob we're gonna be doing to the point where locked himself is going to be either one of those stones or a die depending on what you want to cast them as but omit my enthusiasm ma'am backgammon was definitely bullied by this speech cabin played in quite some time but it might be time to to break it out and start pursuing it again especially because it's not like checkers checkers. I don't know that i've ever played backgammon before i i know it's like a big chess. I play. I play chess a decent amount but i don't think i've ever played backgammon. It's i i enjoy it. I think it's it's more tactical than you think it would be. I will also say a little savage of lock. You know when walt says hey. My mom died a month ago and it's worth. I'm sorry it's just a bad month yeah. He's sucks bro yeah. I realize that he has no pity for other. They're human life that he's had up to this point but still like a little tact. Mr orange peel could be useful here. I think you know lock feels like he was talked down to his entire life. Life and i think that that's one of the reasons why he talks to walt the way that he does raise like we talked down to. We just want to be like talked with. We wanna be like rooted in the conversation but that's the charitable explanation. The uncharitable explanation is john. Locke is a little bit of a weird guy with boundary issues which as you know at the very least all of that is very true but he talks about the black and white stuff and <hes> he as you mentioned we'll be such an instrumental figure in that ven diagram of the great war war that is being played and waged in background and as we said in our inaugural down the hatch podcast there is like from the very beginning in sort of the skeletal notes where lost going what are the core facets of lost this idea that the island is this place where a great battle between in good and evil is being waged paraphrasing. That's not an exact quote but that's really the the real extent of information that will ever forget about what the island is where it comes from and what it's all about. It's really as basic as that so it's right here front and center on the show and i appreciate that about the the pilot. Let's goes out yeah. What's the sound section with the way that the pilot and this will be a long clip. We're gonna we're gonna we're gonna turn it over over to the lost gods of or a moment here as mike and enjoy a nice water break. I assume we're just going to let this clip role because it is is this is an iconic scene. There's a lot of iconic scenes to choose from from the loss pilot but for the purpose of what this segment represents is just like the sounds of loss listening to lost a <hes>. It's hard for me to imagine a better a better seen to pick than this one that comes right from the end of the episode. Let's just play it in full. Hi off off may take that he's back. That's not what would you do that. This guy not fixing. The radio doesn't even work. No no no no no. We can't pick something else is already transmitting transmitting from wet somewhere close the strong throng somebody clubs on the island thus great maybe sort of survivors from our plane transmission. Maybe reduce. We listen to let me get the frequency. I there's no transmission up the rescue party french the the french coming hobby cringe when she said she does what does your gut studying seven to nine four by it. No no no what is dying. We don't watch. I've heard you speak french. Just listen to this. You speak french or not because that would be nice one seven weeks old it. It's it's repeating what it's repeating the same message. It's a conduct. It makes number one eight five three three one know what the hell he's talking about. The running count the number of times. The message is repeated. It's roughly thirty seconds long so how long don't forget get carry the one chief. She's saying. Please please please help me come at me or she's not you don't even speak out man and seeks us. Well no senior eighteen eighty. Please someone calm. The others case killed them curious. Kill them mm all. It was good sixteen years sixteen years at five months. That's what the hell are you talking about. The rations distressed leave. Hope of i made the if the counter strike. It's been playing over and over sixteen years. Someone else stranded here. Maybe they came for someone. Came is still play mm-hmm. I like punch in the mouth to the closing credits noise right and throw sand in your face at the same time for good measure classic. I mean this is eh. It's just so game changing in so many ways he's had so many things thrown our way over the course of these two episodes between the hash between the monster the now not only do you find out when they're thinking they're on the precipice of rescue not only is there someone else possibly on the island but this is someone who has been broadcast a message for celebrating essentially the message is celebrating its sweet sixteen right now saying basically the other people that i'm with our dead ed the security system whatever killed it so they are in much more danger than they thought they were on top of any chance of rescue becoming mkx very ni- as they're about to broach in the next episode yes so it ends on that intense level of dread and mystery and literally well you know summed up in charlie's very famous line of guys. Oh a but it's also great character moments that urgency of it shannon a. and being forced like she volunteered earthless. You know she volunteered for the track and this is like put up or shut up time and like at first release too scared to do it and then that's like push. Come under shove time. It's like you got to speak french. You have to do something here and she does a great job and even boone her biggest detractor once like the gravity of what he's hearing is settling in he even he is able to allow cajal shannon. You got that did a good job saieed. Is there silently doing crazy maf- half in his in his brain just showing off his intelligence <hes> sawyer still being an asshole even through all of that but eventually even this big talker and james sawyer ford is forced to shut up because what they're hearing is insane and berry very bad an pretentious attention for for their odds on the island. If it's true that somebody has been here for more than sixteen years that is awful. That's like the worst news so it's just it's such a killer note to close out the pilot on like you said there's already so much that happens over the course of these two hours of loss these first two hours of lost but to end in this this way for me like i remember watching that episode being like yeah. I'm not going back to me. That's just not happening for me so oh and also the voice not obviously not russo's voice but the guy who the automated voice repeating the iterations is that our pal lloyd braun. I wonder what's on guide so i'm assuming that they started double debt with lloyd here. Yeah i wouldn't be surprised i'm not i don't know for sure but we get we get <hes> we get. We get the ben behind the curtain. If you could look into that for us we would love to get that detail. It sounds like it's just such a great any such a great ending and i think it appropriate ending for for the segment of this. I recap podcast here on down the hatch which is a well past. The point of crisis isis at this point where we are just going deeper down the hat again. There's a ton that we want to set up here right at the top of this journey before we push in deeper to the podcast. Let's take a moment to thank our sponsors for this episode of down the hatch. Mike does our friends at amazon originals and the new series carnival row. That's coming to the streaming service on august thirtieth. Mike is carnival row on your radar. I've heard a bit about it does start my cousin orlando bloom also a man who is very to dominic monaghan a loss cast member you serve in a different band of gentlemen mm-hmm and once upon a time together. Yes orlando bloom is starring in a new fantasy a world. This is carnival row. It's a one hour fantasy drama series. Orlando bloom is starring azziz kara dale levin the series is set in a victorian fantasy world filled with mythological immigrant creatures whose exotic homelands were invaded by the empires of man they struggle to coexist with humans forbidden to live love or fly with freedom orlando bloom. Mike's cousin plays ride reich croft phyllis straight also known as billow a police inspector investigating a string of gruesome murders threatening the uneasy peace of the row macara day levin who is not related to either of us plays vignette stone moss a fairy refugee who flees her war torn homeland to come to the burgh where she must contend not only with rampant human prejudice against her kind but with the secrets that have followed her to this new sounds like she wouldn't get along with sawyer would be would be my guess mike yeah i would say that i mean i don't know maybe sometimes opposites attract you know he was able to find juliet. Maybe he was able to find his own his own soul mate in vignette depending on when they got candy from vending machine and a future yes but even in darkness in the world of carnival double row hope lives as this human detective and ferry rekindled their dangerous fair despite an increasingly intolerant society so come together other an august thirtieth when carnival row hits amazon prime video. That's labor day weekend dropping in its entirety checkout carnival row <hes> mike. Let's get into some feedback here. We got a lot of it and we have made it now over two hours into the podcast without patting ourselves on the back to too much but the the fifteen sixteen other section which we dedicate to feedback and i think just off the off the top. The first thing we have is other number one is holy crap. It's a lot of people listening to this podcast team. I hope they're still listening to it. At this point that we're not so dumb that people have decided that wasn't worthy investment but i mean we are positively away overwhelmed by the amount of support that we have gotten you. Whoa josh and i came up with this idea. We obviously have sort of an echo chamber of people who love loss just like us but we had no idea who be going down the hatch with us and it turns is out so many of you have voiced your sent for going down the hatch with us. Some of you have done it many many times before some of you. It's the first time you're going back since the way the series ended no matter or what it is whether it's seventeen thousand three hundred fifty two or two we are so so incredibly happy that you'll be joining us and hopefully awful. You'll keep joining us through everything. We're talking about. What the show obviously if you're listening to us talk for hours about two hours of show you know oh how much we absolutely love this and really just reflected to me josh how much the show even nearly a decade after this episode aired has such a profound effect on people not only with television tastes but also coming together as well as tv viewers. It's almost like we were alone. Running around the tv landscape trying trying to find that new show and it was the plane crash of oceanic flight eight fifteen that brought us all together to watch this group of survivors. Try to make their way through this very confusing maze time after time. It's just crazy. I mean i've covered. I've covered some very big shows on post. Show recaps the pass game of thrones west road walking dead <hes> a- and there's a lot of shows that like we've done poster recaps allow podcast. I'm deeply deeply proud of and put a ton of work into and loved that feedback doc relationship that we enjoyed on those shows but i'm really struggling to think of a podcast that we've launched since the birth of push a recast back in twenty fourteen that landed with sort of the level of impact that this one did like as soon as we dropped down. The hatch like the immediate response from people was really really exciting. We've heard from so many people people who've expressed their own personal stories with lost in what it has meant to them as they've worked through grief in their own lives or just the milestones said it's guided them through relationships that it's helped them build people who who have written in offering their help like so many people that like we we can't accept all of your help because it's just it's just impossible. It's so touching there've been other podcasts who've been really kind in the law space who've of welcomed us into that world joanne robinson of the storm had a really nice tweet about us when we launched the folks over at previously on loss which is at lost rewatch pod on twitter. They shouted us out as well. We've heard from people from as far away from us in new york as new zealand. There's people in britain people in germany people people all over the world most people who have familiarity with lost already a few people who do not and we have we've cautioned those people people that this is probably not the podcast for you but there are some people out there like the amazing sammy kappel who is and incredible artists who does this great work in the survivor space survivor fan and if you're listening to this good chance that you are as she wrote us podcast listened to if i haven't watched much of lost but they don't mind spoilers and i'd be interested in just like getting a little bit of like a taste of what losses about like if that's you and you're this far into two ars and change into the podcast obviously. I think that this is a place for you this. This is how you want to experience lost. It's not like the way that i would recommend it but we're trying to do this with you in mind as well but we just have so many people have so many different appetites in so many different interest levels in the show who are reaching out to us that we are. I i mean i think we're in a pretty dangerous situation where we are at risk of triggering the one hundred eight minute crisis basically every single week we will probably have to revisit those terms at a certain point because our feedback sections are always going to be very robust. I think yeah again which is great. I love that people are thinking about this on the the same complicated hurley bird's eye view that we are again. It means that we're all in this together though yes unfortunately unfortunately the carlton listen and they didn't extend the numbers past one away. We might have to come up with a new set of numbers because otherwise frozen donkey wheel is going to get hot real quick from the number of times. We're turning it. We will adjust on the fly. If we have this podcast much like the smoke monster may morph the further down the hatch we go we have laid out the blueprint on the blast or map of what it is. We want to do here but just by necessity of this this maybe bigger than we realized. There are things that we may have to adjust on the fly. This is the definition of what did you call this before a problem. This is a very nice problem to have. We got so many really nice letters from people that we can't we can't read them all but we have a lot of letters that like on our worst days where life has has chewed us up at spat us out into a tree we like the smoke monster and the pilot we can turn to some of the really nice things that you have written into us validating for for the work that we do and we just appreciate so much just shout out. Some of the people who've written in daniel no last name alex jared mounts who said nice things about my cat my cat's waiting for being a church in in the afterlife which i'm a as a jew i feel like what am i going to be doing there but i'll go part. Is there jeff bamberger ak the hashtag mug bobby morass a <hes> gale grant lots of really nice people writing in with really nice messages so just <hes> i other off the board to you and everybody else that we're gonna talk about in the feedback and everyone who we didn't didn't get a chance to talk about in the feedback section coming up just because there's so much it's so nice to have you along for the ride and this is the reason why we're doing the podcast yeah i get to touch on a point that josh josh briefly richard he and i both have problems with anxiety and self deprecation and i know i was nervous service to launch this project as much as i love loss i know a lot of people love loss to and i wanna make sure i had this little turnip head of podcast and then we take good care of it you know i and i hope we've been doing a good job so far. I've been having a lot of fun josh. I know you have as well. I hope everyone out there has as well and hopefully this pretends well for many many more podcasts in the future feature so thank you honestly deep down from the pit of our hearts of the islands for your kind words for annual ratings. It really has been an outpouring of love that has just been so unexpected. Get so life-affirming at the same time all right so with that said let's go to other. They're number two which talks about what we got wrong. In the first episode of our swerve there stefan has written into us here on post. Show recaps and stefan is somebody who is who is deep in the lost trenches of mystery person in the loss trenches steiner's responsible for uploading the official lost podcast hot cast to youtube so thank you for making sure that that was not lost to time and for some of the information that's on wrote in about some of what we said in in in our first podcast about some of the behind the scenes details upon rights at the forest whittaker thing about him almost being cast a sawyer as far as he does is a hoax hoax sponsors. I've spent hours trying to find the original source for this. Somebody just wrote this on the i._m._d._b. Trivia page or something like that and others copied it without checking. Damn i like to live in the world. We're forest. Whittaker was almost sawyer. Lifelock news once again locked stefan rates to hor gabe garcia casting casting info might be nitpicky but he didn't auditioned for sawyer. They just didn't have any material written for him and they just gave him some early sawyer lines so that he could at least read something and hurley wasn't really really written for him. Hurley existed from the very early days and it was more of a plot device because he was supposed to be killed off in the pilot just evolved into hurley over time so so the original genesis of that character is much like the michael keaton jack mitha meth is somebody who is not gonna make the pilot so to entertain the notions. The universe versus were both jack and hurley were bumped off in the pilot earning one think about it. I'm pretty sure there was something from you know. There's an oral history of the pilot that i'm sure we'll be in the show. I know it's but i lived. There was something where horford arsia was saying that like this script referred to hurley specifically wearing a red shirt and him not being trekker. He had no idea what that meant. He just thought he was wearing a red shirt but no he was supposed to be. I don't know maybe killed off on the beach. I'm not entirely sure but thank the islands. God odds that that did not happen because you know having jack survive was obviously necessary for the show but having hurley die in the first episode would've been crushing sharing a similarly because that's probably how he would have died would have been too much would have been awful. Savant also notes that saieed wasn't created specifically for naveen andrews. The character existed basically ugly from day one to play the role of the guy who's good with technology and who can fix things and lock wasn't really written for terry while he sure seems like he was <hes> so it was you. There's a lot of urban legends in the loss universe in <hes> we will. We will try to get stuff right but you know it's much like the island. There's there's there's a lot of mystery that abounds. Can we say hey that all parts written for forest whittaker yes every single character including kate and player and vincent vincent the dog vincent the ghost dog was going going to be forest whittaker imagine the smoke monster coming and fifteen forest whitaker's on the beach staring off into the forest i can i'm imagining it now and is is wonderful staring off into the forest and all the trees are forest whittaker faces on trees. Oh my god yeah well. I think as we go the characters that we are going to meet meet along the way like someone like the guest stars and everybody who forest whittaker <hes> would have done like a really great job with some of these these players like in flashbacks ashby a recurring thing elliot all the d._j. Qualls roles gave it to yes. We are yeah especially on like the light weeks. Keep us keep us honest about about our forest whittaker. Yeah we'll we'll see the forest for the trees and that and those all right other number three. I watch review. This is from hillary hillary we wrote in and said since both of you are reporters. Could you give a short review on the pilot as if you were watching it for the first time i love reading online t._v. Recaps in all all started with lost so i'd be curious to hear what you think you're hot takes might have been from the i watch so this is a tough exercise my but i guess i guess one of the do this is an interesting exercise because this will illustrate whether or not it would have been a good idea to do this as a spoiler free podcast right so we're supposed to like look at the pilot and and what would what would we have said about it if we weren't able to talk about the rest of lost if we could only talk about these first two hours like how would you describe this episode in what would you what would you say about it. Where would you begin. I'd say i call it survivor on heroin to be honest. I would say that this is a story about people you know survivor however tells the story of people brought together to build the society and here they're paid these fifteen people are thrust into their own survivor like scenario except getting eliminated from the game has much deadlier consequences. You know the the shows. Hosts gets killed halfway through you. Have your your setting personalities please but the camera turns back on the on the contestants when they realize that the show is a game in a much larger sense of the meaning as compared a lot to survivor which you know was big in my mind at the time and still is big but how it is completely different and has much more liberal life or death circumstances you know so i told my story about how i encountered loss now and i watched that second half of the pilot when it aired and and one of my next courses of action at that time i was a sophomore at syracuse university and i was living with three other guys in in a four person suite and dell plane hall aw for any of you syracuse university alums out there and converted them all to being lost bands in lost became our show and like for my college friends in and me like like this this was the thing i don't really remember how i sold it to them other than being like like like strapping them down and forcing them to watch on on a friday night or whatever carl and put him in just a room enforce their eyes open but i have and he's appeared on the podcast in the past asked on on when we were doing the loss lives iterations of our lost coverage on pusher recaps the great coconut pete he is coming down to visit with his with his wife was a great friend of mine and their kids this weekend so maybe i'll try and just like record a little five minute thing if he can remember how i convinced convinced him to wash loss because i think that would accomplish what hillary is asking from us year so we'll hopefully remember that or at least i will get him to tell me the story if we don't record it so t._d. I'll circle you for shrugging off your part of the question ebbe sweat under having a couple of an impromptu your review no you did great. I think like survivor on heroin sounds about right. I mean that was sort of the idea of what they were. They were going for right but none of them. None of my friends were survivor people. I did convince them of that. Ah well lost but not on heroin yeah. I think that's probably how is all right other number. Four does the episode <unk> hold up and we had a couple of people asking different variations of this including issais marciano and if i'm mispronouncing anybody's name please right in tell me correct pronunciations. I wanna make sure we get that's right especially. If you're going to be writing in throughout the long term of the podcast issue writes in and says i was expecting the special effects of the crash to be really bad but i was pleasantly gently surprised by how it looked. How do you guys think this holds up fifteen years later so let's let's take that first from the visual perspective. This was something the joe garfield was talking with me about the bonus episode of down the hatch that we did after our introductory episode and before this i recap she talked about like there's no cell phones on the show except it's in flashback like you don't really have to live in the world of technology into the fact that people are stripped fairly bear unless it's like fashion choices like note with sawyer it's going to it's going to look relatively modern. Mike look it will still look like it's pretty close to present day how about like from from the aesthetics but also the effects wise. Maybe the polar bear isn't so great but does the rest of played pretty well for you. I would say so. I mean maybe abia was the environment that i was watching but again that the the scene where we get to see the plane crash from cates perspective is jaw-dropping still from from my perspective feet in filmmaking even fifteen years after the fact and like you said we've also avoid a lot of it and that's another advantage of you know oh them crashing on an island just because they're going to be talking a lot about the outside world. You know it's gonna be a while before we get to the red. Sox aren't going to win the world series and that changes which is very quickly after you know lost a loss of references that so we haven't we don't really have a lot of those moments and i think that is able to sort of keep this as a plane in a bottle in a manner of speaking that we are able to essentially crystallize this in a moment that exists in all time periods much like we'll over the course of season five. We also got this from nate meyer who wrote in and said if loss was made in twenty nineteen. What do you think would be different because of the lack of electronics on the island and the plane not much would need to change about these episodes but boone would have been using a smartphone rather than a flip phone to try to call for help to see boone is an iphone guy or an and trade kind of guy i- boone is probably an iphone guy right. I feel like he's just like coca. Cola classic or at least tries to be hoon's totally. The guy that like is going for the latest iphone he's trying to figure out like the dangles of trying to fumble through them on the plane ride to be able to to listen to music but i feel like with the story array of like you know him trying to fall in line with his mother's clothing company. I do feel like he's a he's a good guy when it's looking out for his family but he does seem like someone who wants to beyond the up and up in terms of technology especially needs to look all these youtube videos about how to do a tracheotomy yeah i but what else would be different. I mean i think the fact that like some of these people have smartphones owns. They've got like data and roaming. They've got like a really great plan. Perhaps they could feel phone. Call from the middle of nowhere well. I do wonder if cellphones existed how many more incidents would have cursed the electoral steering all the electromagnetic stuff. That's going on on the island. Also the luxy might be different because walt would ask if there was like checkers. He asked if it was like candy crush or something like is this like fortnight yeah a fortnight right. It's like i don't know who am i kidding. John lockwood would know exactly what fortnight well done lockerbie like tea bagging all these people as he was playing in his wheelchair in fort night in a flashback. Is that a thing that you say in relation to fortnight this back in the halo days right where you would like tap or three to crouch and that looks like your bagging someone uh-huh okay. I had no idea that this is the thing what no i really didn't gamer guy is unexpected boy. Well yeah i mean i think those are the main ones i mean. I don't know maybe with jack you know considering all the push against modern medicine these days maybe some of these people would refuse jack's care asking instead for their certain products in their suitcase to apply to their wounds and hope that they cure overnight yeah. I think everyone's bringing a more robust a bust med kit as their their travel. Also i do not think that blade is making it on the plane and all that jack uses to try to heat up and cauterize the wound. I think the big suitcase of knives that john locke is going to check in. I wonder if <hes> if those are going to make the cut as well speaking of john locke wits get into other number. Five one is lock in one is dark. This is from dallas cervo who writes in and says around season three. I think was when damon in in carlton started mentioning that there was a scene in the pilot that is going to play a huge role in the series and a lot of people started to guess that it was the lock light versus dark seen. Do you think it was a mistake stake of damon and carlton to hint at this scene so early on in the run of the series instead of allowing the audience to come in on their own. What do you think about that. Mike <hes> the fact that people are kind of like pointing to the pilot damian carlton importing the pilot. There's something in here. That's really important foundationally. Does that strike you as a mistake or does that strike you as like you can interactive relationship with the audience. I think it's probably more the second thing will remember that much like a lot of pilots. This was filmed without the knowledge that this would be picked up to series. You know i feel like they. They hopefully had some some sway with the network that they might get picked up especially considering the amount of dough that was spent on this something we didn't mention. I am partially due to the aforementioned plane. Crash is up until i believe boardwalk empire. This was the most expensive pilot ever created. I think one one of the people mark worthington thing we're on the production designer said this is essentially a one hundred eighty million dollar picture done in eight days for this episode alone which is just ridiculous this in a non game of thrones world in terms of the television landscape. I personally am fine with it because again. If you're under the guise of okay we don't know if we're getting picked up to series. I feel like you shouldn't really err on the side of caution in that regard and overbearing medically all things considered maybe but i'm fine with that show. That's going to become increasingly cryptic with its details having something underlying and bolted in the very beginning just gives even in the audience numbers that are paying the least amount of attention to at least pay attention to that scene. That's gonna be lingering thread throughout all seasons of the show down. Cervo also also is keeping track so far at least of the amount of times that hurley says the word dude on lost and so far after the two part pilot we are up to five dudes play five tooth's from hurley. I would like it if down if you could continue tracking the hurley dude count much like like the the judd man count from the evolution of strategy chapter eleven judd sergeant man count is if we do do that as a loss without i think it would be fun and the other one's like we get a walled count. A walkout could be fun. I mean it will it will cease breath. It won't it won't be series. Long to count the the waltz down mentioned counting all the time sawyer says son of a bitch which i don't associate. Let's see with sawyer so much as i associate with jack bauer yeah of if i think counting tracking sawyers nicknames yes i think everyone's going to i think we need and like the nickname rolodex and i think we need the wall tom eter to happen yeah right into us down. The hatchet pusher recaps dot com with your suggestions for things to track can if there's anything you want to volunteer for let us know other number six. This comes to us courtesy of brendan fitzpatrick who cooked up a ah playlist on spotify. That's inspired by lost some music from lost other songs that are kind of funny in connection to lost that are worth listening to we'll put that in the show notes alongside some other links as well if anyone wants to check that out on spotify but brennan writes in and says naveen andrews is low okay going to be the m._v._p. Of the season one rewatch i can already tell just from pilot one into <hes>. What do you think watching saieed back here. Mike bloom. Do you think that site is going to end up as an m._v._p. Of the season one rewatch ben martell adds to this <hes>. Do we think that site is one of the most underrated or forgotten characters on lost. I mean it's tough to say like for gun. I would say that certain elements of his plot progression where forgotten i listened to this before but i think that a lot of people when they think of siam. I don't really think of these first three seasons where again we're seeing a bit of his torrid romance and the more emotionally sensitive aspects of this guy who on the surface this is someone who tortured people for a living and that's what i've really loved about sites character. I agree with brandon. Vena andrews puts in fantastic work not so much twenty three points. He's definitely in the m._v._p. Conversation for this episode. I'm looking forward to seeing citing now. Honestly before the other shoe dropped out of the tree. We and we start to get into more essentially post. Nadia death saieed where he's lost both of his loves. He's cold hearted. He's doing these tasks for ben linus s. than he tries to kill it. He bitty ben linus. Then he dies then he gets resuscitated and then he gets blown up. It's a very weird track for site in the latter half of the series raise but i'm going to cherish the first half of the series because i think he's his characterizations fantastic at that point other number seven is a game of what if life and death in addition some people had some questions about some alternate realities that could have played out on lost. If things had been different in the pilot beginning tyler frederiksen who writes in and says what would the show be like if the pilot didn't get eaten by the black smoke probably a lot of friction between seth and jack over who knows more about flying yeah exactly we'll present an interesting leadership conundrum though because i mean you would assume that if you were on a plane you look to the pilot leadership right but technically not on the plane lane he's still the question would be is he still in a leadership position even though he has absolutely no idea what's going on. The only information he can provide is like yeah. I tried read the best i could and they're not gonna find us anytime soon. I do think it'd be a bit of jockeying for leadership but in pretty sure seth norris is going to acquiesce to jack sooner rather than later. Maybe maybe just spend the rest of his time. Maybe pulling a rose holding his wedding ring franklin pierce points out he wears on each and every flight that he makes maybe he'd sort of pull cindy the and try to explore the rest of the island to see if he can find help and then kidnapped by the others i think that he would not i do not think they'd be falling under the leadership of staff anytime soon yeah i think it's very quickly rise to the top of the ranks of most hated survivor of the crash of oceanic flight eight fifteen you you just be blamed by every crash. The plane pro on job yeah. He it'd be an interesting redemption story right because he would try to help. Maybe he would be the one instead of boone's it's like get the beechcraft down to try to contact on the radio like he would be the biggest people pleaser because he feels like he'd be parentally blamed for the fact that even though again it was not him damn the crash the plane he was the one that was left holding the bag metaphorically speaking skipping ahead a little bit to other to the next other. We have people wondering what greg greenberg's history with j.j abrams because i don't know how many people know this greg grunberg most recognizable outside outside of being the pilot on lost as park men from heroes. He's the guy who plays the pilot in this first episode. J.j abrams is the director of this first episode. You may notice that these two people work together quite a bit and that is because they have known each other forever. They've known each other since they were very very young kids. They've been friends for their entire lives. They made movies together as kids and now they make movies and t._v. Shows together as very accomplished adults. <hes> greg grunberg has been in basically. I think every single j._j. Project in some capacity he has a voice cameo in the first star trek movie of the j.j abrams star trek movies. He was a series regular on both felicity and alias. He has a bit role in mission impossible three. He snapped wesley in the new star star wars trilogy if you if you if you remember snap west liza fighter pilot so greg grunberg and j.j abrams they go way back and i think that if greg grunberg had survived if seth norris had survived this burst episode gotta badger real media arc that is written for him mm-hmm by jacobs or do you think j._j. Embarrass writes a bunch of flashbacks for set like flashes back to embarrassing moments from greg grunberg childhood good yeah. I think it's possible i also say i love that. J.j abrams greg grunberg as timber nisa johnny depp. He just found that guy. He's gonna put an each and every project he does yeah. He's guys is number one boy. Let's talk about some monster motivations next other. We had a bunch of people asking about that including quitting scott ring who writes in. I need to ask the full context of the show. Why did the man in black want to kill the pilot only at that time. Daniel brennan also also writes in based on what we know about the man in black. How can we best understand his slash smoke monster's actions in the pilot namely introducing himself to the survivors by causing using a ruckus on night one and murdering the pilot the following day bend martel describes the smoke monster as so demonstrative in his first appearance difference to everybody in the pilot. How do you understand the motivations clearly. At the time of the writing of the show they weren't thinking about it from my perspective of this monsters character but one of the fun things that we're trying to do here is like we're counting a little bit right so like knowing what we know about the monster ultimately louis and that this is an ancient entity that wants to escape the island at all costs. Why do you think he's bashing these people so hard on their first couple of nights. Yes so so i'm of two minds here. One of them is the more simplistic explanation which is this is one big monster flex. This is the man in black wanting to prove how big of a threat it is almost maybe to scare off jacob's candidates from going further into the island so he's says he can't touch the candidates he might touch this person who isn't a candidate and just sort of throw him around a might be angry at at seth for unintentionally bringing these people here because i think it's a quote from like the incident or something in black does not like like more people here. He does not want more protectors on the ellen. He wants to leave the island of the one that i've sort of wrote in my head that i would love to get your thoughts on josh is i wonder if the men in black is purposely setting himself up as you know this big villain to test has people's natures we see one of the big instigators of this conflict between jacob and the men in black and across the sea is the main black fundamentally believes that people fight and destroy and corrupt. I wonder if the men in black says like if i become a common enemy of the people how violent will they get both with me and and each other improve inherently how evil people are to their core so essentially it's sort of it's sort of serving as bait to see if these dogs are going to sniff jeff at and jump on this meat pile well the other thing to consider too and i think it's it's a conversation we can have to some degree throughout the you know the podcast series especially if people write in and keep wanting to talk about but i think that the story is going to move us in other directions but we'll talk about it certainly closer to season five life is people are gonna start traveling through time you are going to start like going to different periods of time in the history of the island and people from eight fifteen like sawyer and all those people are going to spend so much time in the seventies but they're gonna go as far back as when the statue was still intact so so who knows how how far back we know that they they go to a future point beyond this moment in time in in the loss timeline that though though you know flash forward at one point something that's closer to the jira flight. They're going to be hopping all over time but if you think about like some of those points in the past the monster seems to know so much about what's going on on on the island seems to have this sort of this every man everywhere quality about him and made no just from like the island gossip of overhearing like after like the moment where john locke goes into the others camp in the forties forties or whatever it is and meets with richard alpert there the monster may be able to divine from from just overhearing or interact with the people like yeah. There's this guy named john locke. He says he comes from the future and stuff. Monsters got nothing to do but time. He doesn't have a movie theater he can go to. He doesn't have a net flex account. He's got nothing to do but just like plot and think about how the hell do. I get off this island so details like that. Oh there's a there's a self-professed time traveller in our midst may ping on his radar as something to be interested in so the arrival of the survivors of oceanic she antic eight one fifteen would be would be a huge event right would be like a massive events like oh my god it's happening. It's happening. It's happening. It's michael scott gift from the from the office of like okay. Okay it's happening. It's happening like the monster may just be so excited and so ready to start testing these people because it's i've been waiting for this moment and that that great dialogue between the man in black and jacob from back in the season five finale that we played at the start of this podcast series that we did. We cut off before this number. He says i'm going to find a loophole someday. The monster may know as soon as the arrival of oceanic eight fifteen eighteen that that day has arrived. The loophole is about to be broken. Yeah i mean that's very true. He could have sort of the john. Locke unintentionally told him him what he needed to do. Maybe that's another reason why he felt he could take advantage of john. Locke is because he's someone who can easily give away information. He has loose orangey lips that he can take advantage of. Yes the citrus sent. Let's get into other number ten. This gesture owing. We started flirting with this idea a little while ago. I wanted to save it for here. Charlie yes yes jessica jessica written into us and said how does gary troup getting sucked into the turbine which which then explodes compared to some of the other epic deaths in show and so we should give a little bit of background for the people who aren't so deep into loss but they so who or what a gary troup is. It's not a troupe of musicians from gary indiana that that would be great as well but gary troup is the author of bad twin. A book that in the world of loss is just an unpublished manuscript which we later see sawyer reading in season two in real life bad bad twin was published as a companion piece to lost. We'll be checking in on that at other points in down the hatch when there's some more relevant bits but just to give a couple of quick teases the book bad twin. It's dedicated to gary. Fiancee who is cindy is cindy. The flight attendant apparently is gary is beyond say <hes> in the in the world of wost but it gets we get the sense that like maybe it's not fully reciprocated so maybe gary troup getting sucked into the turbine. He's the guy gets sucked into the turbine. Maybe we shouldn't feel so bad about that. Maybe it was like kind of a good riddance. Sorta deal yeah i mean i think cindy is very happy that she got. That's separated from gary. In different parts of the plane will leave it at that so we'll talk about gary more in later detail but ask the question of where does gary fit in the pantheon of of lost deaths once again to reference lost lives. Which were these podcasts that we did long ago in the push recaps archives that you can go back and listen into we talked. We did a countdown of the twenty three best deaths on lost and spoiler alert. Gary troup did indeed make the list that it's like the first really notable death of lost so you have to stand up and saluted spoil the placement but you can go and you can listen to that podcast <unk> link to it in the show notes. The live stuff is fun. I haven't revisited in in years but if you're if you're jonesing for more lost podcasting from mike and and other people in the post show recaps university go back and check that out yeah resuscitate but don't breathe air directly into the stomach or jack while in malaysia for for it he will admonish you for it. Let's go to other number eleven which i'm calling to joe gar fine question on the on the podcast that i did with joe gar fine leading into this when i asked her at the end of the conversation if she had anything to to send our way for the pilot any questions she wanted to to ask us and she she said that we should be paying close attention to where bernard was during the flight and where charlie was as well during the flight and we had a question in from jordan from wisconsin who said i'm confused by the mechanics. If we're charlie was when the plane crashed can't remember if this is addressed later mike charlie is trying to go to the bathroom breath room in the back of the plane but bernard whether he has p or whatever he's in the band says own heroine who knows bernard's got going on but he's in the back of the plane and the bathroom and the backward charlie originally was trying to go if bernard had gotten up to use the bathroom charlie would have been in the bathroom in the back of the plane arrigo. Charlie could have been a taylor. I fear for him there. I feel like annalisa yeah. I i mean i don't know but charlie but analysts is not nearly as forgiving of a leader as jack is i feel like when he gets up to those shenanigans. He's going in that whole thank god that goodwin went into and he's just living there forever plus he don't. He doesn't have claire to follow him. I think it's altogether worse outcome for charlie. He doesn't doesn't have his own heroic moment as well. So maybe charlie becomes like many of the other taylor. That just happened to get killed off somewhere over the course of season. Two or beginning of season is in three but he paint this pilot. This is when he creates his <hes> his famous fate little finger. Let's that he puts on around his left heads. I feel like it's true faith that he ended up going to the bathroom in the front of the plane. Instead of the back yeah i mean truly would have been able to hang out with mister echo. Maybe he would we've been able to like have like a nice friendship moment with mr echo but then charlie never would have found the heroin plane and then mr echo never would have found the heroin plane so maybe mr echo would've lived lived record when i'm gone in a d._u._i. So maybe he lived no. He's not part of that crowd. I think i think just wanted off the show. It's like the one man who doesn't like why are other number twelve flashing forward to the end and i even hesitate to get into this and i think let's just get into it quick but just to established at fire and ice cream great participant in the feedback on poche recaps tweeted and instead. I'm an original show watcher back when we had to actually watch us on tv. It wasn't until a few years ago that i founded. I completely misunderstood the ending so my question is this is actually all happening right. Yes it is it absolutely is for anybody else who is confused because the end of lost reveals that the sideways reality and the final season is some uh-huh version of an afterlife and people will have died and then they have this extra life after they die and then there's the over the closing credits they showed the ghostly haunted husk of oceanic eight fifteen on the beach and see. I do time yeah they were not. We should have put this as one of our point the spoilers the island is not purgatory. It is not purgatory and never was purgatory everything that we are going to see over over the next basically until the end of season five. Every single thing has actually happened. I'll use in real time in quotations because again. There's a lot of a jumping around. It's only until we get into these flash sideways things in season sakes. We're getting to the more hetty. I wouldn't say purgatory. It's more of a halfway home stuff stuff in the sideways universe but yes everything that happened on the island did happen. Whatever happened happened absolutely all right so move on from that other other number thirteen ben martell loads us up with some things that we may have missed in translation from the episode just some things that maybe we haven't even mentioned yet. One of them is that we get the first mention of the black rock in this episode. It's in french so unless you're shannon. Maybe you miss it but nice to get the black rock in as early as the first episode yeah uh you reference that piece from our previous podcast which essentially tell all from one of the loss writers from season one who i'm sure will reference many times over the course of this podcast cast but he has a really interesting story about how you know. The black rock wasn't i think it was just more so mentioned in the message and not really thought out that was definitely one of those things where damon lindelof walked to the room and said what's the black rock and one of the guys said it's a it's a spanish ship that crashed on the island back in the day he goes great. We got it and then leaves so it's more of a random reference thrown in there just for the sake of creating misery but it is fun to see the breadcrumb here absolutely ah ben also notes that due to the editing each iteration of danielle's distress call sounded a little bit different an approximate translation of the entire message patching together what we hear various iterations. Is this quote. If anybody can hear this they are dead. Please help us. It is outside and brennan took the keys. They very dead. It killed it killed them. All i'll try and make it to the black rock end quote and i do believe we meet brennan later on in lost in season five when we flash back to see more of rousseau i also believe that brennan is the last name of kate austen's tom her childhood sweetheart <hes> but i assume new relation to the nineteen eighties era french explorer brennan now. It all makes sense. We know tom brennan had an obsession with a little toy. Klay played kate falls from wannabe toymaker. She has type. Yes i think so think so. <hes> ben says we also hear sons speak to michael in korean in this episode in a translation of what she said is. I'm sorry but i don't speak english which foreshadows the future reveal to michael that indeed. She does except for that one episode when she got hit in the head and didn't yeah well. That's that's a that's a long time away. Thankfully yeah that's. That's really the things that happened in the final season. It's not one of the things that holds up especially great for me but we'll get there other number. Fourteen ben end martellus pointing us in the direction of some music analysis of obviously michael. J. aquino's score is just remarkable and the backbone of so much of lost. I and we really were not even able to really get into that in this. You know what's going to end up being three hour plus podcast. I know again. We'll we'll tighten up. We'll tell it sure i swear we'll figure it out but but points in the direction of somebody who's doing really amazing work in terms of musical analysis of loss that that we want to point everybody in the direction of if you're a nerd for that kind of thing if you wanna get your extracurriculars on as you're going back down the hatch this is jim fells is is the name of this person who is in the midst of putting together a deep analysis of how the themes and motifs and the music of lost are used to create the musical backdrop of the show each video that jim jim is creating. It's about ten to fifteen minutes. Long chooses some of the themes in the episode and then shows how those themes are varied and combined in other episodes to highlight particular characters events commotions or themes for people who loved the music in the show like to understand more about how deliberate and careful jackie knows choices are the videos are an absolute must watch as at this podcast. Oh those videos. They're full spoilers all six seasons so warned but if you're this far you're already cool that so you should be fine <hes> in this week's video you can you can find out which characters were the first to have their musical. Themes introduced on the show and surprise not thick yeah. You'd think i highly recommend these. He's <hes> he does a great job of showing the motifs that occur throughout all the different seasons especially. You know you find out that a lot of these particular songs get introducing. The pilots recur a lot in varying epic capacities. I think hollywood and vine for instance occurs basically in every season finale in some way shape or form they talk about the origin of the quote unquote island theme which we hear a lot as well and is used to symbolize. Bring someone into the group or someone leaving the group group so <hes> you know before i really got into t._v. I never been one to really pay attention to musical scoring but it's thanks to check out the show again and the great work of someone like jim fells for for me to really pay attention to what's going on in the background and how music really does influence the emotional quality of a scene so we'll link to that in the show notes. It's definitely worth watching if you love the music of this show as much as we do so check the show notes and you can get linked to those youtube videos. We've got to others in in the other section. I think are better for basically ended podcast stuff. Let's let's let's save it for the. I want to get into the into the m._v._p. And the v._p. Of of it all this are twenty three points section where as you said this is basically just an excuse to further talk about some of the characters that delight or annoy us in a given episode a- and each week we're gonna we're gonna alternate. There's two m._v._p. Points that one of us will give out and three m._v._p. Points that the other will give out and then to l._v. Points at one of us will go out and three points that the other will give out and we're going to switch positions every single week just to just to balance it out this week. I'm going to give out to m._v._p. Points mike will give out three and the points and you will give out mike you'll give out to l._v. Pointed i will give out three point to talk about who are the most valuable and least valuable both players on loss and mike. I'll i'll turn the mic over to you and also say if you wanna combine any of your point if you just feel so passionately about one character and like you wanna give vincent the dog all three of your m._v._p. Points i'm not necessarily matter that well. I would give it to vincent inventive. Give it to charlie because it's such a big driveshaft uh-huh so people have a lot of consternation about jack as a character down the line but i gotta get my first m._v._p. Point to him <hes> and i will also say the top here. I think we can totally also give points to the same characters. I don't think we need to think about like giving m._g._b. Points to five separate characters if it ends up being that great eight but i gotta start off here with jack not only just be you perform a pure feta majesty by treating so many people in a crash at preventing so many of them from data as possible but the way he was able to lead a charlie and kate get that transceiver the fact that he's not he hasn't given the big live together die alone own speech yet these sort of has become the big de facto leader of the he's already fostering relationships with a lot of people are know about if you know this josh he used to be able to fly plains point here yeah okay. I like that i think jack is you know we we. We open on an i. It's jack cy. We're really rooted in his perspective so through so much of this episode and if not for feeling some kinship with him. I don't think we connect to lost as deeply as we end up doing and i think in that same vein i'm gonna give my first one to kate. Who i know is a character who is the favourite of many different people. I think along the line we we will hopefully freshman that up that is certainly one of my goals here is to do some image rehab for the great. Kate austen lot of this is because evangeline lilly's just so spectacular but she's such a front and center character in this episode the way that she thinks on her feet in that with the polar bear seen in hindsight insight knowing more about her history. That's really really fun and you you can see as we said already like you could see the bones of the version of lost were jack diet and kate took on the leadership leadership role and it's a hard scenario to envision but in that alternate universe where evangeline lilly is leading this show at maybe she's getting better stories that are written for her in the future than some of the stories that she ends up getting saddled with. I think we would have been in great hands. So i point goes to kate alco sign. I'll get my second point kate as well. Wow kate is the is the first front runner here exciting. I think that she showcase a lot of independence and there was a really interesting recurring storyline storyline between jack and kate and these first two episodes where it's like kate wants to do something. Jack says no don't do that. You'll get you'll be endangering and she essentially says no. I can do this. Yes he says okay. If that's the case then you know et cetera et cetera and i think she's really showcasing likes lawyer said in that clip that we played you think that you know who she is is but she is much more resilient than you think she is much more levelheaded and she is much more of a leader a quick thinker as you said so. I'm surprised to say this but it is a strong start for miss austen. Hopefully that continues into next week. I will next week serve flashback episode so what's up so all right i get this is my second and the not my second of two m._v._p. Awards that i can i can dish out this week. Give me the monster. Give me the monster. It's a monster masher in the pilot. The monster draws us blood mike. The monster makes his move. The monster scares the crap out of every single person on the beach all of the plate fifteen yrs. They're all freaked out by the terrifying taxicabs sounds emanating from deep within the jungle. The monster proves that it's not just a really cool angry. Primal beast mode voice voice it also has the ability to turn human into goo at does so very effectively to j.j abrams childhood friend and thank god. It's is not frank lupita because then i think i would've given the monster and l. v._p. Award but also lupita v._p. I think for a lot of the things that we talked about about like the fan thicky type of stuff that you got to do with loss when you when you think about it really hard after the fact like if if that's the kind of fun that you wanna have with which is definitely the type of fun. I like to have a show show like this. You get really creative and in your own hat and very tinfoil hatty stuff with lost a lot of the stuff that we were already talking about the monster. It just makes me so excited about the future of the show so having the monster. I have such a huge presence in this first episode. Gotta give him an m._v._p. Point all right. I'm going to give them my final. One to mr saieed. I eat jarara. Sorry is a literal m._v._p. In that he's the one who fixes the transceiver and is able to get a signal from it but again. I feel you like his character has already started to buck the trend or maybe how he was perceived in the real world. I really like the turn where again you find out that this really nice nice level headed. Guy is someone who is part of the republican guard from iraq and we're gonna find out more about that. How maybe he's a bit more reticent from what we initially initially think with people who are attributed to that organization but yet considering his involvement and how he essentially ran that second mission. I gotta give cited here all right so now we're turning to l._v. And i've got three l._v. people into award and mike you have to and i guess i'm gonna give give it to <hes> man. It's hard it's hard to do. There's the obvious pick. I assume you're going to do the obvious pick. I'm gonna. I'm going to hold off and if you don't pick the the obvious victim the obvious pick won't go and i will be very surprised at the pilot dies in a pilot crashed. The plane and i know is really desmond who is responsible but give me seth north east. No i'm just gonna. I'm just gonna take a point away from seth norris right at the jump. I i don't know if he has many opportunities to make that point. Josh how show up later on i think that's very likely is going to end his down. The hatch run with a negative one would be my bet all right. Let's go for the obvious this year. I'm going with boon. Yeah i l v._p. I think that you know shannon handsome redeeming moments again. She had the ability to translate most of the french message but boone was sort of shown as somebody who jack wanted to get rid of in an emergency situation he was sort of abdicated the the the a substitute dr position when jack into the cockpit but otherwise he's sort of ended up being the worthless person this episode. I know things are going to get a lot better verboon as he goes under a john locks tutelage. Let me not so much better but at least from a from a worth worthiness perspective but yet i think he's the one who comes off by far the worst of the main cast in this premier. No there's a lot of people who wrote in about boone and i actually thought it was kind of interesting how much we got feedback from people about boone. I anticipated he'd probably get the v._p. At least one of our points. I think if you hadn't done it by your second one i would have done it by the third anyway. Even though i'll defend spend some aspects of the boone character definitely one of the l. v._p.'s of the episode people wrote in job. Now i wrote in to shannon and boone get any better. I don't remember that ever happening but maybe i've just forgotten fizi brennan fitzpatrick said watching the pilot the other shocked at the level of my dislike for him and my actual oh kanus heinous with shannon she at least feels like she has some nuance because of her scene with clare ben martell wonders casting in summer halder made boone seem like he ought that'd be likable likable incapable when his actions don't really bear that out would have worked better as a character and had more scope for redemption. If you felt more believably from money and entitled bless buff i think that in summer halder plays entitled and from money pretty well personally and i think that one of the things that i i like like about boone as a character and his place in the greater lost mythos is first of all that he dies this season so we don't have to think about about him that hard and i think that what boone ultimately becomes is he's you know he's he's an avatar for the fleeting nature of of life and death on the island and in this show and i think that boone enters the universe of lost as somebody who believes himself to be the hero of his own story believes himself to be the leader of any room that he walks into and isn't like a it's like a raging jerk about this kind of stuff. It's just the life that he was. He was born into in the life that he is used to. It's the world that he is used to and he quickly comes comes to realize due to the severity of the situation and the types of people that he's surrounded by that he this guy who fancies himself an alpha type who usually takes charge of most of the situations you. I've run my mom's wedding business. He's the person who thinks that he's the guy quickly has to come to grips with the fact that no you're not the guy you're surrounded ended by tons of people who are masters of their lives and i think the way that that wears on somebody like boone yield some interesting drama for me and and i think that where he ultimately lands literally as he falls of the beach plane i think in in connection to that arc i think some powerful powerful stuff comes from that. I think a lot of people don't like boone as a character and yet still still feel fairly touched by his death. Yes his sixteen is one of the highlights realizes season wanted in my opinion because it's not only it's the death of boone. It's the birth of aaron and i can't remember if lock does the begging on the hatch with the lights before it. Don't get like it's after the beechcraft crashed but still it's something link with it also entered the second half of the equation. I think the post boone shannon is really interesting. That's when she really starts to you know around boone's death that's when she starts to romance saieed which brings out a different part of her character she asom redemptive moment in the beginning of season two before annalisa guns are down in the jungle lunch. Here's wall so to answer these questions. I think they do get better. I think these are like sawyer says they have roles to play. They're not very likable roles here in the pilot yes. I guess i'll give shannon l. v._p. Here just alongside boon yes. She translates the french but i think it's these two characters especially with the greater cast that we're dealing with right now it. It just popped the same way that everybody else does and that's buying. I think that i think that a lot of ways boone and less so shannon are are kind like sentient redshirts. Their red shirts are given more character more meaning in more depth and more more background and sort of like the pre nikki and paulo right. There's there's a reason why they're featured as expose as they are really did get like nikki and powell i mean even until we had them merged with sawyer and saieed and kate and the second episode they were really off by themselves and it really felt like they were sort of making commentary onto the scene and not necessarily likable way so maybe that just inspired them to do it all all over again and expose all right. Mike your last l. v._p. Award handed out the man who shares my name say. Give me michael mailman meant. He's just trying to be a dad man. It's mainly for one scene where wall three in the comic books and michael says when we get off the island. We're going to get you a new dog. This is not the time nor the place to bring that up my goal. What are you doing so that for that reason and that retail load. He gets my l._v. People there enough and literally for the reason he's in that. He is a racist jackass. Sawyer will get an m._v._p. Place is a complex man is a complex guy sweetheart. Big sawyer will much like norris unlike seth norris he will rise above his initial negative one star. I think sawyer has a very promising future teacher here on down the hatch but just as we're starting out i think he's got a land where he lands here are. It's just a reset that for people who want to be keeping track could we will be keeping track of this series long the m._v._p.'s from the pilot with plus one a piece jack shepherd kate austen. Kate gets a second one so she she is in the lead with two m._v._p. Points the monster gets an m._v._p. Point and si- gets one as well so one for jack one for the monster one for saieed and then for the l. v._p.'s the the sad clown pilot seth norris skating a negative one boone and shannon both a negative one michael negative one and sawyer the negative one as well before he inevitably gets to plus one hundred eight. Let's start wrapping things so soon i know i know we had two other others to get to. We had jordan from wisconsin who wanted to see what we were thinking about. The frozen donkey wheel. We all we mentioned in our first podcast that if we go over one hundred eight minutes on a regular podcast not on a little. We're going wrong choice that that amount of time right now just seeing yes yes. We'll talk offline about it. We'll strategize if we if we if we go past the one hundred and eight minutes we trigger a crisis and bonus podcasts of down the hatch shall be prepped and recorded and released into the wild. I think that the specifics civic of how those podcasts will be created and released. I think will depend upon the podcast that we're talking about. I don't think that it can be as simple as we trigger a crisis and then you get the bonus berry next week. I think it's totally going to depend on the bonus that we land on but the way this will work is we're gonna we're gonna come up with a totally ripping off robin akiva nita podcast on our h._p. We're taking their wheel. We're putting it in the freezer or taking it out and we've got frozen donkey. Will it's got some options for bonus loss podcast on it and we've we've got some. We've got some ideas for what should be on. There will throw some of them out right now and then you can write into us on the feedback to lock lock this in by the end of next week's podcast just in case just in case we trigger another one trigger one about the the first cape huge. We're screwed but yeah we'll we'll take it all back on so that we have in mind so obviously survivor lost is going to happen. It's something that has been asked of the r._t._p. Community at large for the longest time the idea of doing a survivor simulation featuring characters from lost lose it using the branch steel algorithm josh done it many a time for both survivor proper and we did it recently with stranger things on that no but other stranger the things podcast. Josh and i did some r._p._g. Some role playing stuff in the realm of stranger things. I think given these success of that. It's likely that we would bring our good friend our affiliate back to do some role playing within the loss universe as well yeah. I think so that would be really fun. I think the survivor lost thing. I'm almost tempted not to even put it on the frozen donkey wheel because of how inevitable it is. I think i think we're going to do it. I think it's a matter of when we're just gonna. We're gonna do it. We may do it soon. Who knows you may want to you may want to keep tabs on on our plans for for survivor lost simulation that i don't think that we need to put it on. The frozen is in donkey well but i think some lost r._p._g. Where mike and i at the at the whim of our good friend are philly. We are inhabiting the roles of people on the island. I went to playing the parts of red shirts for basically some some podcast. Improv theater sounds like a pretty fun time. You're in pusher recaps. I like that for the wheel. <hes> the lost book club is one that i've seen mentioned. I like that idea whether it's were reading a book that is stemming from lost and doing unlike some sort of book report on it like how ridiculous is bad twin actually like that could be what that podcast is. We've talked about the lindelof which she's gonna be a song parody competition. <hes> that is much like the wand off that we do on our h. a._p. But that's a great example of if we trigger the lindelof if we land on the lindelof as the first <hes> bonus podcast like we can't just unleash that next week we can't unleash it until we get the right volume value and the right selection of songs from people so that will really depend on user generated feedback yeah some other stuff we mentioned all of the lost alum mm starring shows that have come and gone so i think there's definitely something in there about some sort of recap of like an old series premiere whether it happy alcatraz flash forward v. person of interest or even adjacent are apparent next deep dive josh in twenty twenty two to alias. Yes fun to touch upon in addition and we were thinking about maybe touching upon some other miscellaneous lost. <hes> you know content. We were talking about the missing pieces before the web. There was also a lost video game. There was a lost board game that were lost trading card so i'm sure we could do something as well with those various pieces of memorabilia. I had an idea for something that i've called adventure. <hes> adventure would be mike like you and i doing very safe versions of things that happen on lost and recording ourselves ourselves doing them and then reporting those results back in the form of a bonus podcast so much like how the law sees create a golf course has thing like you and i could go golfing and we could record our golfing expedition and cut it together in the form of a podcast we could we could do something like a a like a polar bear swim elbowing we could we could do some sort of like early morning swim activity that is absolutely horrible and we can report short back on the results of that. I like the idea of you and i having to pull a charlie and hurley with baby aaron where we could baby. We sit. Perhaps even baby asher if i'm allowed into your home. I don't know that i am gladly are absolutely. I think that there could be some fun. Adventure sure podcasts to do if people have good ideas for that so yeah. This is just the base level of what we've set up. If you have any ideas be sure to send them in much. It's like robin akita podcast. We function well off of listener submissions in so many ways of any loss inspired ideas for bonus podcast. Come your way be sure to send them in because given the runtime of this podcast we might be hitting that crisis button sooner rather than later. I expect that we probably will very very likely we're going to be in that crisis mode before for too long so let us know what you think we will aim to to firm up the frozen donkey wheel by the end of episode to our next recap but <hes> if not we'll just we'll get it sturdy and set once it is in proper condition <hes> final other. What's talk about episode. Rankings kings just sterling had said josh you mentioned season six being much better on a rewatch. Will you be updating your episode rankings and mike. I feel like we should rank the episodes as we go right. Doesn't that seem like something we should be doing here on down the halftime hopeful that my memory retains so much marin like season five and we're like okay. How does this rank against whatever the the case may be that. I'll have you know crystal clear in my memory. It's pretty easy right now but i think it's an admirable thing that we should try to in considering that you know we are pushing this from a very different angle. It only makes sense. We try to compare loss against itself. I've done episode rankings before my current and most recent official episode rankings. I have been published on mtv com. I will link to that in the show notes. I don't know how much i stand behind those episode rankings anymore as i have said right before my feelings on lost change after every watched through so flexible document and it may be totally different if we do it here along the way on down the hatch. I think it'd be fun especially on the on the weeks where maybe we aren't going quite as long winded as we are here. They'll give us something to debate and something to talk about anything. The deeper we get into the show it could lead to some some fun conversation but it'd be very hard this week to rank the right <hes>. Where does it land. Where does it oh you know what this is me being bit renegade but cavalier. I'm going to say number one number one all right number one call number one. The pilot is number one in the pilot. The best episode of lost is a take that some people have. Do you think that the pilots is going to be number. One all the way raced through knowing the two of us know. I think that it might be as i said before the best pilot i've ever seen i think the issue is like we mentioned before it doesn't interesting job introducing these characters but unfortunately it doesn't provide us with like the fully complicated arcs that we're going to discover with this cast. That's why i'm personally more of a fan of an episode like exodus is because it's sort of has all the stuff from the first season in terms of spectacle comedy drama twists memorable memorable tv moment but also a lot of character richness now that we've gone to know these characters for twenty three episodes. There's a lot of payoff. That happens emotionally that we don't necessarily get in the pilots islets while the pilot is a very good episode. I will spoil our rankings by the end of season <hes> season one and say at least exodus a better episode in my opinion yeah yeah i think it it's tough because this show arrives in a way that is just so impressive to me only that it's it's it it does it crash lands in the most spectacular way and this episode really is the reason why we've got a podcast about out lost fifteen years on from this episode right like you know there's there's a reason why we've been drawn back to the island and so much of it stems from the god god had that is the two part pilot but i think that a lot of the things that are so impressive about this episode are done better elsewhere and so i think for legacy reasons i will be surprised if the pilot ever drops below the top ten i agree but i don't think it'll stay into in the the number one spot. I see it staying in the top five baby. I would be shocked if it left the top ten. I would agree with that for now for now. It's number one pronounces solent sitting in a tree not as angled as pours l. v._p. Seth norris but in a comfortable spot in a comfortable spot indeed all right mike there we go we did it. We talked about the two part pilot and it took us nearly envelops the time of avengers endgame in talking about it we've done we've done our duty. Hopefully i know that it was a long wait between the announcement podcast and the release of the recap podcast gassed for this first episode of lost. Hopefully it was worth the late. Hopefully we will be anywhere in the vicinity of this long for the single episode recaps that we've got going on. Maybe some people out. There would be happy if we were <hes>. I think mike and i feel like we have embarked on way too dangerous out of control of ourselves so we will have to make very drastic changes ages if this becomes the norm but i do not think it will be the norm next week. We're talking about the kate austen flashback episode the first character centric flashback flashback episode of lost which i've always pronounced as tabula rasa but you've been saying to boola rasa and i don't know if that's just because you're so fond of the word boola from our trip to feed. I was gonna just say i'm still i'm still so close to fiji much like the island that i just approaching naturally like that but i am excited i mean it's it's always going to be tough to say where does loss go from here. You know the are they able to in a manner speaking land the plane after the pilot or is it going to crash but the concept to larosa or tabula rasa is so interesting to me especially because is connected to the philosopher john locke which which is a little surprising. I think a lot of people look at this episode and because of that reason it's the it's the lock episode but that's the very next one but it's focusing more on kate. We had this big a cliffhanger. The floor dropped out from under us when we found out that she is not what you see. She is a hardened criminal. We're gonna find out a bit more about why why that is <hes> and we'll find out much much more about why that is in the years to come absolutely all right. We want your feedback. Your comments your questions about that episode. Please send them our way. We are having a great time interacting with you guys on this podcast so please send an email down the hatch at po show recaps recaps dot com that is by far and away the best way to send in your feedback down. The hatch. Proposal recaps dot com our email address but you can also tweet at us at poacher. Recaps is our main show twitter account. I'm at round howard you can tweet at mike at a mike bloom type subscribe to down the hatch now that we have our podcast feed up search for lost down the hatch on your podcast app of choice we would be so grateful for your ratings and reviews we are striving to be discovered right here in the ocean the vast ocean of content that is out here as we were talking about her boy that is so do not take our boy but please leave some ratings and reviews. We would really really appreciate it. Mike bloom anything else before we close this one. We have expanded on every single word that could be said. What about the lost pilot but that being said if you guys have any thoughts about our thoughts on the pilot you know we're always happy to talk about with our twitter fingers over the course of the podcasts casts et cetera but this has even after nearly three and a half hours josh. I'm so energized. Gangi talk about this show and i cannot wait to do it with you in perpetuity. Oh my god well here. We go done with the pilot onto the next one until next week. Everybody take care six point two eight hundred sixty four point. It took took took took <music>.