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Grilled by Lawmakers, Big Tech Turns Up the Gaslight
"Everything all week just to give you the top five stories, and this week we're going to kick it off with the four major tech CEOs appearing before Congress. And as I looked at it, and as I watched the bits and pieces of it, it started to remind me of something, and I thought, What was that? What is that? I looked up in Webster's dictionary online, the definition of gas lighting. You know what that means? Gas lighting. It's a form of psychological manipulation. Distorting the truth. To confuse aren't still doubt is the official definition until the other person questions reality. Because there they were Amazon's Jeff because those apples Tim Cook, Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg and Google soon DARPA Che telling Congress why they shouldn't be broken up where they should be regulated. So America's CEO censors who for years have spied on all of us in a cellar data, and you tell this to be true, But Jeff Bezos actually said the on ly things People trust more than amazon dot com. Is their personal position and the U. S military, really. He's got AA lot of high hopes and not very humble opinion of himself, which I said that users clearly don't want to be tracked by those little bits of code called cookies, but Wait a minute. Didn't last year he have a speech where he defended them. Yes, he did. As a matter of fact, As for Tim Cook, he only got 30 questions compared to 60. The other Fab forgot. I guess they all like their iPhones there on the hill. And then there's Mark Zuckerberg, who argue that Facebook is not a monopoly, even though members of Congress Reference 2012 when Facebook bread they comprise 95% of all social media. And that's also right around the time that they purchased Instagram, which Zuckerberg considered a threat. He also did not remember paying teens to spy on them through Facebook research that app Which wasn't even two years ago. Maybe Mark needs little protection, don't you think? Well, the problem with these hearings is that the tech leaders or tech prose, and the folks at the hearing's not so much. One guy actually asked a question Mark Zuckerberg because he thought that Facebook on Twitter Goessling at its best, folks. Alright, Number
Big tech CEOs testify before Congress
"So, this hearing just going to say it, it was six hours of chaos. So. So many things like individual moments of pure chaos happened this hearing. But because every member of Congress was only given five minutes to ask the questions in and they moved on, no one could process the moments of cash. So here are some things that happened during this hearing. Jeff. bezos just started eating nuts on his call. That was just a thing that you started snacking for the first ninety minutes. It appears that basis had tech issues was operating in some kind of delay. So we didn't hear from him. They just answer any questions and they'd take a ten minute break Jeff. bezos could fix his computer. Amazing. Jim Jordan, who McKenna pointed out. On the show last week is always sort of chaos element. Try to talk over several members of Congress got yelled to put his mass back on floated. Just elaborate conspiracy theories. was when I say was chaos I. Don't know if there's any other way to describe it. I. Think that led a lot of people to think the hearing itself didn't accomplish its goals, but I think in many ways it did. But Kennedy you WanNa Kinda go through what the committee was trying to accomplish the themes they were pointed at in. How hearing played out, right. So okay. First off. Harkening back to last week I mentioned Jim. Jordan's mountain dew obsession. Definitely drink a handful those throughout the hearing I took notes in screen shots. So, I, called it. But regardless of their pores soda choices, there were a lot of lawmakers who definitely did their homework and I think that was really apparent throughout the entire hearing and when I look at. The picture that they tried to paint I think that became really clear in chairman Sicily's opening statements. So this is the guy who liked. And spearheaded the entire investigation from the beginning, and in those opening statements, he pointed out that yeah Apple Amazon Google facebook. There are different in a lot of ways and they exhibit anticompetitive behaviors potentially allegedly and a lot of different ways. But what they tried to pull together and was a story, and it's really hard to tell a story and five minute fragments. But what happened yesterday was Sicily. Ni, and a lot of the Democrats on the Committee wanted to point out that these companies they become bottlenecks for distribution whether that's information or just like APP stores marketplace's they control what gets distributed in how what was really key to the investigation was how? How they survey competitors. If you have so much control dominance over a market or a specific part of the tech industry, you have a lot of insight into your competitors and you can do a lot of dangerous things with that, and then lastly, after that dominance has gained, it's how they abuse it. Right? How they abuse it to make harder for small businesses in competitors and I think that's exactly what Cellini pointed out in the beginning and I think they did a poor job that storytelling throughout the process. But I think that's also our job. Right is to pull that evidence together and tell that story for them in a way that isn't like. Yes, no yelling at CEOS and like stopping them and I think by getting that in the evidentiary record doing all this questioning, I think they really did achieve their goal in the end. Yeah. I mean, I think the thing that happened sort of next to the hearing was that they released a bunch of documents from these one point, three, million documents of clutch. Over the past year, they released pretty targeted selection documents for every company showing some of this stuff, Casey, I wrote a story about. facebook. INSTAGRAM. My I'm going to frame this email or mark Zuckerberg. Literally one sentence, no period. The Andrew says I need to figure out. I'M GONNA buy instagram like I would love to just be in a place were sending that email like super casually like I got this thing to figure out and it's not like am I gonNa buy the model of the car. It's like instagram. I've been thinking of the text messages where so and so says that Mark Zuckerberg's didn't go destroy mode on instagram ever since they got that up. Case she this to Kevin and right that text was. Yes. Well, it was Kevin. System was talking to an investor and Kevin said to the investor. If we don't sell well, mark, go into destroy mode on us and the investor side probably. Of course, stray casual. So there's just a lot of documents and I think one of the functions of hearing was to get those documents into the official congressional record to make the CEO's account for them. That did not seem very successful to me. Is like a takeaway people should have from this hearing, right? No. I think a lot of people that go into these hearings are expecting like these big Gotcha moments and expecting like a lot of news and all this stuff. But it really, it wasn't oversight hearing. You know it wasn't. They didn't come. They came at this like in a report last earlier this week that they came out at as investigators. They didn't come at it to make a big show horse and pony show out of it, and yet I think the CEO's didn't. The record well enough to the extent that they could have. But there was definitely, I was expecting them to do a lot less evasion and I expected a lot less room probation with the documents, but it's just the process of a Congressional hearing. It's. It's hard to do that in a congressional hearing. But if you put those documents out there, you get the CEO's on the record a little bit who does excite this excites the FTC. J, and that's who can take this next and then it's also congress. You know they can't break up a tech company, but they can regulate going forward and it's those three key themes that I pointed out earlier that they could regulate. You know what I mean. They could legislate to forbid companies from surveying competitors and things like that, and that's where this goes. So the format of the hearing, every member and five minute chunks, it seemed very clear that the Democrats had some sort of coordinated evidentiary strategy, they would start and. And they would say, I, want to read this email to you. What did you mean by this email and then Jeff bezos would say something like I have. No idea is on works. I. Was real pattern that developed was basis really not doing or claiming he definitely knows claiming not really no way Wayne is under the thing they did or they would ask sooner Pichai about the very granular add deal google made by an ad product, and soon I, would say I'll get back to you, which is basically all responses. So the Democrats seemed like they were coordinated to move through their documents. The Republicans seem to be doing something else that also seem coordinated intentional, but what was their focus because that seemed clear split my takeaway from Jim Jordan who? We got into earlier, he he was interviewing. As if they were all Jack Dorsey. And as we talked about like, yeah, he invited Jack Dorsey to testify, but he doesn't sit on the antidote subcommittees. Anything. He says, it just doesn't matter. So it sounded to me as if he prepared questions Jack Dorsey and then it was like, oh, he's not coming I'll ask Tim Cook the same questions. Another completely crazy moment that happened just seen by and five minute chunks is that. Represented Sensenbrenner from Wisconsin Dear Sweet Wisconsin. Definitely. Asked Mark Zuckerberg why the Donald Junior was banned from twitter and mark. Zuckerberg was happening on twitter facebook and there was just like a moment of confused silence, and then he tried to move on and that just sort of floated by in the river of chaos to tell you how much chaos there was kneeling. When you started to tell that story, I thought you were going to tell the story about when Jim Jordan asked him cook if the famous one, thousand, nine, hundred, four, Apple Super Bowl, AD was actually about twenty twenty cancel culture, which is another thing that really happened. I think that's out of context. He didn't ask him. He said clearly, this is. That's definitely what Steve Jobs was thinking IBM is canceled culture and Apple's going to break it with hammer and Jeff. Bezos said that social media is a nuance destruction machine and all this crazy stuff from that. It was a wild will that that particular question when Jim Jordan asked, do you support the cancel culture mov, you could see the CEOS like. 'cause they went in order. He asks them all in order. So First Tim Cook just like basically muttered nothing. Here's like I don't. I support speech whatever. The iphone a keyboard like that was his answer. Sooner per child also, just like muttered, right? He's like Google has always supported free expression Zuckerberg like saw the opportunity and took it and the forces of liberalism I rising I, and then basis was like I cannot. I cannot do in like went for it, and that was just totally insane moment. But it also seems like the Republicans were intentional to try to create their own moments where they were yelling at CEOS about bias on platforms is obviously something cover a. At. You were paying a lot of attention that case you're paying a lot of attention to it. Do you think that was effective in creating because you know there's like a parallel conservative Universe Jim? Jordan was on Tucker. Carlson. Last night like was that effective or d think that the CEO's were able to sort of tamp down on interesting the Tucker Carlson pointed out that Google and other companies are all big donors to Jim Jordan another folks. So that is a weird side, but I think it was actually besides the moment where they mixed up twitter with facebook I. Think this was much more effective off. Off Topic yelling about technology than we usually see like are genuinely issues that like they are upset about that, they could point to largely around like cove nineteen misinformation and they could at least like pick those topics and stick to them rather than kind of asking vague questions about like, why is my phone listening to me? Well, they're definitely asked questions about why are my campaign emails getting filtered by G mail? Yes. I should. I should mention that they have really and they have all of these cases where they ask about extremely specific one off incidents that anyone who has used social media knows happens constantly. And, then turn them into a sinister pattern. But I think they managed to come off as sounding more like they understood what they were talking about the unusual. I think that was a real theme of the hearing, Casey. What did you think of this sort of bias side show that occurred? Well, I mean the the idea that conservative voices are being suppressed is foundational to the conservative movement and is behind the rise of conservative talk radio. It was behind the rise of Fox News. Now that social media exists, we have seen it in this new form, but it is sort of being presented as extra, sinister and worthy of. Some sort of legislative intervention what frustrates me about it is that much more than newspapers or or cable news like Mark Zuckerberg Dorsey. These people benefit hugely from having all possible voices on their platform. None of them is incentivized to drive conservatives off their platform. What they are incentivized to do is have rules that make the place safe and welcoming. So that people want to hang out there and so to the extent that there are issues on the platform, they've largely come because these platforms have rules. And you know you would think that a bunch of free marketeers would realize that the alternative to the system that they're so mad about would be creating a new system, but they don't seem at all interested in doing that. So I just sort of dismissed all of them as charlatans I actually thought it was interesting that the opposite track came up, which was the Stop Hey for profit campaign I kind of wasn't expecting that. The representative Raskin I believe asked facebook. Basically, why aren't you kicking more hate speech off. I forget who else asked like look is the point that you're so big. You don't care about advertiser boycotts I. Mean, you know it will here. Here is a fact that the number one complaint that facebook gets from its users, the thing that users. About. FACEBOOK is that it removes too much content and so if you're running the place, you do have to take these complaints seriously in a way. Right? It might not be you know that you shadow band conservative whatever that even means on social network in twenty twenty. But the fact that you're removing content is really upsetting people. So you can't dismiss that idea entirely, but I still don't feel like we're having that intellectually honest conversation about it. So this was definitely I feel like you can connect the you control distribution. We're GONNA show the abuses of power narrative. We got other. Democrats. With the you control distribution. You're banning conservatives right like I. Think what's Sensenbrenner Again, cups and conservatives are consumers to is that people don't realize that like fifty percent of the population in many ways. But facebook has like famous conservatives working its highest levels Kevin. We last week, we're talking about Kevin Roose keeps sharing the list. List of the most engaged content from crowd tangle. It's all conservative content, and that's so problematic for facebook that they're. They're pushing back with other metrics and graphs of their own, making the facts just aren't there, but it doesn't seem to be convincing. Brett Kevin is being asked to recuse himself from facebook case because he's like best friends with facebook I, AP I wrote a column almost two years ago. Now, arguing that conservatives were trying to redefine. Any conservative identified person having any unwanted outcome on a social network, right? So bias is your name was higher than mine in search results. Bias is used suggested that I follow a Democrat and not a Republican right, and if you take action on your policies that apply to everyone against me a conservative that is biased against conservatives, right. So and by the way I have to say this has been hugely successful because we've talked about it. How many minutes now and the longer that these discussions. Discussions. Go on. They just sort of refi people's minds. The idea that there really is a vast conspiracy to silence conservative speech because he's networks are so big millions of conservatives are having experiences like this every day, and now there is an ideology that is basically a religion for them to attach to, which is although Silicon Valley liberals are out to get. Reason I wanted to talk about the conservative side show, which in many ways was a circus is it feels like the notion that we should be punitive to the companies or mad at the company's. Bipartisan, right we were. We were not looking at a hearing where the Democrats were on the attack. Republicans are saying we love. Apple. We're looking at hearing where they were. Everyone was mad. There are a couple of exceptions to that. There were a couple of I think sensenbrenner and a few other folks were like look we want to be clear. Big is not bad. We just WANNA make sure we're not punishing you for your success, but you were like almost entirely, right? Yeah. I. Mean I. think that's it's important to. To capture that mood like Jeff Bezos Mark Zuckerberg, Tim, Cook soon. Darpa, try they usually get to finish whatever sentence they start saying. Right. They're not used to being interrupted. Their thoughts are usually like you know they get to live in complete sentences and people take them seriously here in five in intervals, they were interrupted almost every time they started speaking to be told that they were wrong that they were filibuster at one point Sicily said stop thinking is for the questions. We can just assume they're all good questions. They. Were getting yelled at and they're going yell that about a variety of things that were pretty specific. So you kind of in your kind of structure here. The first one was controlling distribution. What did you hear as a hearing went on the indicated to that? The committee had a case here? I think the apple's APP store is one thing you know charging thirty percent cuts on certain things is just controlling an APP store. It's the same thing with Amazon's marketplace. They can inherently in control what gets placed and what gets sold and you know if they want to play with search results on Amazon, they can do that, and then on facebook and Google, it's not just like products and software that's information. And it could be information when it's like Google. Google. Stealing yelps, texture views right in putting those in its little info boxes in search queries in facebook if facebook is just like an. Mation, distribution platform and. It can decide Algorithm Mickley. Knowingly. What people get to see this bution was very keen to the committee's hearing yesterday and they pointed out different aspects in which you know each company exhibited that kind of behavior. So the one that will you bring up apple? We wrote about this, say there's much emails. Apples document production is just one hundred and thirty pages of unrelated emails and whatever order see it's like scan through it. So there's a lot of little stories in there. There's one about right to repair and apple realizing it needed to repair. By watching PR people operate by reading their emails journalists. Very entertaining. They're like we had a break like here's our strategy. Here's we're GONNA. That's all in there. You can look at it, but there's a lot about the APP store itself and how they're going to use the mechanics of the APP store to control their platform, and it started at the beginning like the first emails in this production from twenty, ten there. From Phil, Schiller Steve Jobs saying, are we GONNA? Let Amazon Sell Books in the kindle store. Store, it felt like I saw an Amazon ad was hard to watch this hard to watch this ad where a person's reading a book on an iphone in the kindle APP in the pick up an android phone keep reading. He's like literally like it was hard to watch like Schiller's at home like pain what a customer is having an experience that good it really just. Heart and so he's like it was hard to watch. You fours Steve Jobs. They're like we gotta shut it down jobs is the bookstore will be the only bookstore on the APP. Store. That's the way it's going to be everyone's gotta used to it. We know that restricting payments will hurt other things, but that's what we're doing and they started there in two thousand ten and they pulled it out, and then that ladders up into everything that we've seen with, hey, ladders up into the analysis group showing up to. Apple, can pay them to say that there's independent study has revealed. Everybody has a thirty percent cut. It has landed up into Tim Cook, forwarding. He gets a letters from developers that are in this direction. It's like apples breaking my heart and he just like Ford's it. Tim, Cook forwards that email to filter credit eighty, just as thoughts like amazing like they are constantly thinking about the APP store as a mechanism of control for the platform in the leverage and other deals. So the other one was apple is this Amazon one which I have very mixed feelings on saying that this is bad or legal I'm curious for all of your thoughts famously. Did, not have the prime video APP on the Apple TV and all these other places apple, Amazon came to a deal. There's an entire presentation in this production like the slide deck of how the deal is going to work. Apple got to be the preferred seller of its own product. So third parties cancel. Apple. Products, Amazon pages, they got. They have a custom by flow. They've custom product pages, all the stuff in return. Amazon got a lower commission on the APP store and gets to Selatan products which no. No like you can rent a movie from the Amazon APP on the Apple TV, no one else gets to it in one world. This is just pure platform collision, right? Apple cut VIP deal for big companies because it wanted something and you could say this is legal in another world. It's like this is how deals work apple something valuable. Amazon s something valuable and they came to a conclusion wherever made more money and quite frankly the consumer experience platform has got better. How do you read that? Casey? That is good and fair analysis of it. I. Think I did read slightly more scandalous. Tones into it in part because apple would never acknowledge that some developers are more important to it than others even though if you assume that that's true, I think maybe one of the things that's frustrating about it is there is no transparency accountability around which developers get sweetheart deals is that once you hit a certain threshold of revenue will cut your price. Why couldn't they extend that deal to everyone right? Or is it just if we withhold something that seems particularly valuable, we can eventually drag you to the table. Table, which is sort of what seems like happened here. I think in all cases, what I'm always looking for is the accountability, right like and some sense of of equitable treatment of developers and I understand the guys are always going to get the best treatment, but it can that be publicly visible. Can it be acknowledged and there'd be routes for others to achieve that same level of success and treatment, and that I'll just seems missing here. Did you buy Tim Co? He said it twice. It was obviously A. Glimmer, of sympathy for all four CEOS. There is a lot of reporting that they had spent months preparing for this hearing like being grilled there, they'd hire outside law firms. They. Practiced they all clearly had soundbites memorized in none of them. Got To say him because it kept getting interrupted. Tim Cook had this one where he is like if we're the gatekeepers, the gates are open wider than ever. We've gone from five hundred. APPS to one point seven, he said like. A whole speech. and. The thing is there's fierce competition for developers. They don't like our store can do for android the windows. For xbox and PS. Four. Which I was like the idea that adobe is going to be like we don't want to be on the IPAD. Here's PS. Four Photoshop is insanity to me. I'm going to build a spreadsheet. APP. For the five. That's how frustrated with Tim Cook. To that ring. True to you I. Mean, there's no, it does not ring true. There is a, there is a duopoly. In the United States when it comes to smartphones, iphones have majority share in the United States and you can't say, well, you know there's there's a rogue fork of android in Malaysia that you could go develop for if you really wanted to and have that come across as a credible argument to Americans. Right it is. Natural for any monopolist to spend most of its time, arguing that it is much smaller and much less consequential as as you think it is and they're essentially always asking you to ignore what is in front of your face, which is that they are the giant. They are in control. What they say goes, and it doesn't matter which small businesses get hurt along the. The. Way I would point out that the contact and we're gonNA talk about earnings eventually. But the context for that is apple had its biggest third quarter ever this month, their revenues went up eleven percent year over year, they're making obviously making billions of dollars in their services revenue, which is a lot of the narrative around the APP stores increasing that services line. Also went up. I think it was thirteen billion. So you're right. They're very big in their earnings the day after the hearing did nothing. To reduce that impression. I want to switch to Amazon a little bit McKenna. You really focused Amazon was basis first time up there. They came at him a lot about marketplace. How did you think that went I think it went pretty good. I. Think. John Paul specifically was just like killer her questions with breakout star. Yeah. She was just like killer and she's the representative for. SEATTLE. So this is where Amazon is right. So she just like killed it and. And I think there were a couple of instances in the documents and in questioning yesterday that really pulled important things out there was like testimony from one bookseller who was like, yeah. We just can't sell a category of books and we don't know why Amazon doesn't let us do that just like testimony like that or even when it comes to like acquisitions, the ring acquisition especially, I wrote about that today through the documents and how. They said, this is for market position. This is a for technology, your talent or anything. We just bought this and that's something that base said again, yesterday he was just very clear. It's like, yeah, we do buy things market position, which is like so insane just here like the richest person in the world. But like, yeah, we're buying market position. It's just what happens. That's another one I have mixed feelings right, and by the way, people should read McKenna story because those documents have just a very funny breakdown like the pros and cons of buying. Buying ring in many of the cons like what if this turns into nest, which if you're just the verge cast listeners like it's just like the Keyword Bingo, but it's fine to say, we're buying market position like this isn't the best product out there, but it's the category of video. doorbells is not huge, right? So to by the the market leader in video doorbells is maybe the most rational use of the money. What is the problem that you think the committee was trying to show an address sense of we're just going to market position. Pointing out, they can just do whatever they want and how casual it is, and there really isn't. It's really funny to read an email like that, and we could buy it or we could just copy it or are. We could just watch. You know that was one of the emails that base from someone. Those are just three options you know and it's like just pick and choose you know. Pointed out like a lot. Just that email itself really pointed out just how easy it is for them. They used a lot of that time history to talk about copycat behaviors and to talk about just like you know buying up competitors and it just seeing that all in one little e mail having to do with the ring was like really i. think it was really kind of I opening and especially like useful for the committee. So Amazon got hit a lot for the data collection side of it of copying competitors. bezos did not seem to have great answers there. Right. So that's the. The thing they got in trouble with this. There is that Wall Street. Journal article from like April where employees were literally like, yeah. We dip into data and we use that to guide our own private label products and everybody was like Whoa and Amazon basins. Yesterday said, well, we do have a policy that bans that but giant pointed out yesterday. It's like, okay. So what's your enforcement look like you can have the policy, but like if you don't enforce it, then it's like meaningless. And then yesterday I. Think Paul was like, can you give me a yes or no answer? Do you dip into data and he's like I can't I can't give you. Yes or no, and we're just like we're looking into it. The story had anonymous sources. So that isn't very helpful to us. You know what I mean. So that was one of the main things and that Wall Street Journal article and I think it's the same kind of examples in the committee's documents. They point out specific examples like car trunk, organizers of all things. It's like weird little products like Amazon's like this is a little hot. Maybe we should do that. So I, I think. I, think they made a good case yesterday. Yesterday on that. Yeah. I mean bezos brought up that Wall Street Journal, Article himself twice, and he was like, well, your policy against it. But I can't guarantee never happened. Then there is a strange just didn't come across clear I. Think I know what the committee was trying to get at their like US aggregate seller data when there's only three sellers and then only to sellers? Yes, I. Think what they're getting at is when you're down to the aggregate data of two companies, you heard effectively looking at individual data. What is the problem? They're like the I get what you're doing. You're just reducing the denominator to get to one, but like it, why is that particular problem? Right? Well, none of these. Dipping into individual seller data and looking at aggregate data. That's not a legal. There is no law. This is all voluntary of Amazon. So they have a voluntary policy where like we can't do individual seller data, but they say nothing against aggregate and aggregate what you're getting at eight. Here you is. Does the same thing if it's just like some goofy little product they. They bring up pop stock. It's all the time before pop tops in a moment. Right? There's only like one pop. So company like you know pop soggy, it was kind of an innovative product. It's like well, if there's only two of them and use the aggregate data, you you you have everything you need to know you know about that product line looking aggregate. If that's what you decide to qualify as do you as you're looking through the other Amazon documents and other stuff. So anything jump out at you is something the committee was trying to prove or get at. The questioning seemed very focused on. Like are you using the state at a copy products? Are you buying things? You shouldn't buy. There's one question which I did not understand why came up about DMC. Take downs on twitch and Jeff as just had this look of panic in his eyes. He's like I don't know man I bought Wedge because my kids want to. Do something like that was like the side show stuff, but the real focus here, it just seemed like it was definitely in the marketplace, right? Amazon, everyone came at Amazon for the marketplace. That's what everybody knows him as like they have all these little sides. They got rain. They got Alexa Alexa was one thing too. That was kind of interesting. It's like. Are you buying things like ring to put Alexa into and dislike expand your like Titan Ism as like an Internet Internet connected home. Thing and make that more closed off and walled gardening. That was one thing. But no, it was just focusing on how much power they have to kind of change. What happens in the marketplace to kind of decide what companies in what products are able to come up on the first page of results. You know that's also something that they dug into Google and in something that one of those like themes that kind of ties everything together. We should say they all spend a lot of time talking about counterfeit goods, and why is it Amazon removed? Fake stuff from the platform and how much is it profiting off of you know selling pick rolexes? Is it surprising? The whole foods didn't show up at all they're. Like that is a really massive thing. Amazon owns that. Is it moving into a huge new product category? I think whole foods is not an online marketplace, which was the title of the hearing, not that that restricted anybody from doing anything except that, one of the things Amazon says is we have lots of competition from offline marketplaces, right? Brought up kroger a lot I mean, this is the case he's point. They all made. It seem like they were beset at any moment. They could be crushed by the likes of stop and Shop Right? Like I think the point though was really on the. Digital. Experience Consumers have and like I, don't know Ho-. Foods fits. Into that narrative, especially, because it is itself not dominant like they bought it because you needed to grow in their. Good at that at my question for you on the Amazon stuff was when you think about, we talk about two thirty a lot right like you and I in particular spent a lot time to thirty, which regulates with the platform can do with content. There's not really an equivalent of two thirty for goods on store. Right like there's some case is out there saying like you're liable for what what happens on your online store page, but Amazon doesn't have that like second order of like Messi nece around it that twitter and facebook to with two thirty, I. Mean, it gets invoked a lot for marketplace's, but it's way messier. Well, I just wanted to like this question at counterfeits question about ranking the store like they are even more free than any twitter is to to sort tweets algorithm. Algorithm clear to modern like it just their store. Do you think that they're like that Algorithm transparency? Your wire things ranked. Did you catch a sense that that's where the regulation is GonNa go. So much of the conversation around Amazon really felt like it was individuals sellers being wronged for reasons of Amazon being unresponsive or stealing. It's data. So I don't know it didn't. It didn't seem like a really big focus of the hearing, but it is a huge deal. Yeah. The, digital marketplace frame of this, which is where we have talked to. Cellini. That's where he's going right like facebook and Google very digital. They have like they don't do physical goods. Really. Apple is the APP store. It's all digital goods. Amazon is the one where it's. Front to a lot of physical things, and that is the only place where I can see this regulation needing to make some sort of like major meaningful distinction in I. Didn't see it in the hearing, but I was curious of you caught a glimmer of it. I'm not positive that they have to make a huge distinction there like depending on what they come up with because. So much of this is about their companies and whatever product they produced. The issue is more or less whether or not they're being surveilled and unfairly by targeted and crushed by that data surveillance. All right. We have gone for forty minutes. We should take a quick break. I said I wasn't going to go by company and it happens. So we should come back and talk with facebook Ango. We'll be right back. This is advertiser content. When I say utopia what comes to mind. Birds Chirping lush natural beauty dialed up and vibrant technicolor. Is it within reach. Your world world. World. explained. You are an essential part of the perfect social body. Every Body Matt Place. Everybody happy now while the peacock original series, brave new world takes place in a scientific futuristic utopia. A concept is nothing new Sir Thomas more. I introduced the theory five hundred years ago. But we keep looking for that community identity stability of aldous Huxley's Utopia and not finding it Americans are the unhappiest they've been in decades, and we're increasingly lonely whereas in a utopia. Everyone belongs to everyone else. In nineteen forty-three, the psychologist Abraham. maslow's developed a theory of Utopia. One that allows total self determination in basic terms. maslow's theory says that in Utopia, we decide for ourselves, what we need and how we're GONNA get it in Huxley's Utopia citizens always get what they want and don't want what they can't get. Sounds. Pretty good. Right. Then why can't we make it happen? For a Utopian Society the work we might need to disband some of the things we hold dearest marriage government privacy individualism even family. See for yourself. If a Utopian world is as perfect as it seems watch brave new world now streaming only on peacock. These are really difficult crazy stressful times, and if you're trying to sort of cope, it could be helpful to find something that gets beyond like doom scrolling and like obsessive worried. But digs into what is really going on underneath the surface, and that's what the weeds is all about I. Matthew Yglesias. Weeds podcast here on the box meeting podcast network. This is podcast for people who really want to understand the policy debates and policy issues that shaping our world. We've seen now more than ever like how relevant policy is to our actual lives, but so much in the news isn't focused on really understanding and explaining detail way if that sounds good to you, join us for the weeds, every Tuesday and Friday to find out what's going on why matters and what we can do about it. You could download the weeds on apple spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. Tracy. When it comes to facebook I turn to you. FACEBOOK is patience consumer of startups as what we've learned. Yeah. But you said something to me yesterday was interesting, which is everyone else's problems are forward looking and it feels like facebook's problems are actually in the past break for people explain what you mean. Yeah. So when Congress is looking at any trust with respect to these four companies for three of them, it's It's sort of about the marketplaces that their operating right now with facebook, the question is much more about should we have allowed it to buy serum? Should we have allowed it to buy WHATSAPP and most of the antitrust conversation that was around facebook yesterday was all about that. What did Mark Zuckerberg know about Instagram, and when did he know it? We wrote a story based on some documents that the house released yesterday. In which facebook has clearly identified instagram as a competitor. In at least some ways and wants to go after it and knock it off the table, and so that's kind of where the focuses their facebook and Burke did get a lot of other questions yesterday, but it tended to be much more about content moderation and things that don't have a lot to do with antitrust. So there was weird section where they asked the face. Face Research APP in the novel, Vpn? Any kind of got lost well, explain what happened and I'm curious reactions. Yeah. So facebook has a bunch of nifty tech tools to figure out what's trending which APPs or the kids using, and so that can essentially have an early warning system if it needs to consider acquiring something or more likely in these days, go out clone it. and. So Zuckerberg was asked about the way that the company uses these systems and if they are anti competitive I, think you know traditional antitrust law probably would not say copying an APP feature is anti competitive, but could lobby written in the future about it shirt I. Think the one that caught me was I mean, this is what I'm. McKenna's points from earlier is like one of the themes here is, are you so dominant that you can collect data that's unfair and then use that to crush or killer competitors, and definitely bought the Inaba VPN to do it. That's true. Now, when I've asked executives at facebook about this, what they'll say is they don't get surprised anymore. When you have three point, one billion people using your apps around the world. You know what links they're sharing, you know what they're talking about. And so you're not going to need some kind of specialized tool to know that WHATSAPP is really taking off. Right. So they would argue that, yes, these tools were useful to them, but you know at their scale, they know what's popular now, which doesn't really seem like addresses, the problem is reached. The fact that we're so big that we're all knowing is maybe not the defense that they sometimes presented as so here's what I didn't get. I thought, Zuckerberg I want to the instagram. What's about who's issues, but on the facebook research front, the data front, they him about this APP facebook research, which you were giving to teens. They were deploying with an enterprise certificate that story broke apple revoke the certificate, and all of facebook's internal APPs went dark, and this is a scandal story after story about it, they went on for two days. So I can I, don't recall that APP? Just how he you know, he remembers the day that all facebook's internal APPS went down and people couldn't go to the cafeteria. I would agree I found that answer. Extremely, ed? Persuasive. that. Do you think that was like actually strategic for him to be like, I, don't know and then come back later and correct the record I do remember when that happened I. Mean. I really don't know I mean also you know during a six hour hearing, it's also possible that you just you get flustered or you miss here something or or something because. Yeah. As as you say, I'm sure he remembers the day that apple turned off their internal APPS I mean. Honestly. Seems like an opportunity to talk about apple's market power, and the fact that you know a day of work canceled at facebook because apple got mad. But I think most of the CEO's didn't go into yesterday a wanted to pick fights with each other. It was kind of sad that they didn't. I was Kinda hoping that Tim Cook take a shot at soccer burger. Point that the other two APP platforms I was expecting it. It was there. It was. There was all there. So cellini ended and he ended the whole meeting with closing statement. He said, some of these companies didn't get broken out. They all need to get regulated in the off too much power that some of them I. don't these breaking up apple. What sort of break. Right like. The division get sent into the corner thing about what it's done. Right. Does should spin out the finder team I've always wanted to. A clean is always that they want to. They want the APP store to be separate from the IPHONE. Basically, that's the thing I always hear. Can't break I. Think you can write some strong regulations but not playing you're on store, right. But like Elizabeth Warren's point was it's cleaner if it's two companies, but it's still a gigantic remedy that I don't think there's a lot of like like consumer or public opinion is going to walk into an Apple Cup I think you'll radio at marketplace. It seems very clear that we says some of them she broken up he is talking about facebook. I have a twenty percent conference level. He might be talking with Google and Youtube as well. But if he's going to say some of the need to get broken up like it's facebook, did you hear anything yesterday that supported that conclusion or Saudi stocks I? MEAN HE I don't remember which Republican it was, but he was like the Obama FTC looked at this and they said it was minding love. Obama. Right. Like. Why would we go back in time to relook at I? Mean, there is a belief and I mean. Somebody who thinks there could be a lot of benefit in instagram and WHATSAPP being different companies from facebook. And the reason you ask. So many questions about that acquisition as you're making the case that it never should have been approved in the first place, and so now you need to remedy it. So that was actually like the entire thrust of the argument against facebook yesterday. I think, you could probably make just as good a case that Amazon after spin out aws, but lawmakers chose not to make that case. Yeah. I think that also gets into. Politics of the acquisition of the time. To his credit is like nobody knew instagram would actually be a success like we made it a success. It didn't happen by itself. I, don't know if the lawmakers. By award, these guys said, but I don't know that he actually made that case very persuasively. and. Who knows I mean? That's like anything could have happened. Right? Cram could've stayed independent and rapidly grown and overtaken facebook like that's something that could have happened. It could have kind settled into a middle zone like snapchat or twitter seems more likely to me although I think probably would have been bigger than those two but. You're never going to know I mean it is true that facebook gave Mike and Kevin it instagram enormous resources. A lot of the reasons why Mike and Kevin sold was because running tiny startup that's blowing up is absolutely exhausting Mike. Krieger. was dragging his laptop all around San. Francisco. Because the servers were melting at all times of the day whenever Justin Bieber. Posted like the site stopped working and they really we need help. Finding a person who can quickly fix this? So we don't have to like that is the reason that they were entertaining these offers and wanted to sell it. So that is also thing that happened. Do you think that that same kind of argument or approach can apply to what's up? What's up basically did not come up yesterday and all the focus on Instagram, but that's the other one, right? Yeah, and we know weirdly a lot less about that acquisition I. Think it's because people in America just have so much less love for what's APP generally. That, it's never seemed as important. What happened to WHATSAPP as what happens to instagram even though WHATSAPP, is used, you know way more, it probably has way more engagement even than instagram does so I don't know why that didn't come up as often. We know there was a competitive bidding war for that as well. Goule. Wanted it as well. You know Mark Zuckerberg made them an offer, they can't refuse. Do you think everyday Google's we should've spent more money on what's whatsapp like this could have been solved. Should have, but Google has been placed under an ancient curse that prevents them from ever making the right decision about any social product. So it was doomed never to happen. It's fun looking through the documents and watching them casually say they should buy facebook dot com. Yeah, that. Point. That is how they talk like the window into these executives just casually being like we should just this thing or maybe not, or we should just copied ourselves and kill it before it gets any traction like it's repeated over and over again last facebook question. This one is like harder to parse because I. There's a chance, it's October is just joking around but. But. He's in many of these emails. He's like the thing about startups, as you can always buy them, which I think the committee thinks is a smoking gun, right? Like facebook's entire plan is to buy the competition to get the data from wherever they get it to say, oh, man, this apps popping, we just buy it and kill it before it competes with us. I. Think he actually said at one point. That's a joke. Yes, he did and I believe that you know it was two thousand, twelve, right? He was probably still in his mid twenties. At that point, the company was a lot smaller like people were joking around like there's more loose talk when companies are younger and I do think. It was it was part of that. I think the more interesting question becomes. Let's say facebook is telling the truth about everything. Let's say they thought it was going to be a successful acquisition, but they never knew it was gonna big as it became today and they invested in it and it got super big. Okay. Well, now, it's as big as it is. Should they be allowed to keep? Keep it or should they be forced to spend it out and if you're GONNA force them to spin it out. What's the argument that you'RE GONNA. Make about why one question that I have a lot is clearly the referral they're gonNa make, and it seems like if you don't have some other reason, we've heard hints that there's some other reason, the FTC scrutinize this that will eventually be revealed. But what you're saying is the antitrust standard at the time, the Consumer Hartman stand, which is still our standard. Says, you have to prove prices will go up both products for free. You're screwed. Right? There's nothing to review because you're not gonNA prove prove that free products are gonNA get more expensive. I think it's pretty unfair if you change the standard and you go back in time and say you missed that standard. So I think there has to be something else there. Well, what was the standard by which at and T. was broken up? Right? Like presumably at and T. didn't used to be that big, and then it just got really big and then they broke it up at least. That's the thumbnail understanding I have of that break-up. Well, yeah. But then reformed itself. Right. But because of lax antitrust regulation, right? Like it wasn't a naturally occurring phenomenon that all those APPS got back to the other or was that just sort of like inattention to capitalism It's like in the seventies and eighties. This is Tim moves book the cursive bigness in the seventies and eighties Robert Bork I can't talk about Robert on this podcast. Are we doing this right now. Robert was very influential judge Appellate Judge Federal Appellate? Judge. And basically moved the antitrust law to the consumer harm standard as part of a movement called and economics. A whole thing Robert. Bork. Mostly famous because he was not appointed. He was nominated Supreme Court by Reagan but they leaked video tape rental history, and then he didn't get nominated and that is where the expression getting bork's comes from. This is all true Netflix's still has to abide by videotape data privacy act is a whole. This is all true when facebook and Netflix had some partners, Nansen? Partnership. To. Automatically share your net flicks, watch history to facebook. They're like pending the change of this law which we are working on Robert Bork. He haunts us all. I'm sorry, I can't believe this much. Yeah I. think that's just like the law changed in the in the seventies and eighties, the standard change. The conversation right now is a very much about changing it back months and months ago, pre pandemic, we had an economist from I. Think it was Nyu Thomas Philippon came on the show, and he was like look you have this natural ab test going on in the world where the European Union when it formed was like, how do we get an economy like America's? So, we'll just take their competition policies pretty good, and at the same time we changed consumer harm standard. So everything you're seeing the EU is basically our old competition antitrust standard in. You can see how active they are in everything. Here's a new consumer welfare standard. Whether you believe, this is actually a functional Ab test given. The state of both governments is up for debate, but that was his point I thought. It was spare can say.
Tech giants Facebook, Google, Apple and Amazon to face Congress
"Is happening because there is a recognition across government that these four very powerful and very important companies to the economy had become so dominant that they are harming consumers and harming competition. So Congress has summoned the CEOs of the corporations. Jeff Bezos of Amazon, Tim Cook of Apple, Mark Zuckerberg of Facebook and soon DARPA Chai of Google to ask them and interrogate them on their business practices and find out if these Internet giants that have become in many ways. The new trusts of our economy. If they are harming consumers in competition.
Big Tech CEOs Testimony Before Congress
"Today was the day as I record these words the big tech CEO's are still testifying before Congress. So I'm going to have to do a summary of what I've seen just in the first couple of hours or so and leave some of the juicier question and answer back and forth for tomorrow. I up a note on the format that we've been seeing. Yes. All of the CEOS were testifying remotely. They were using Cisco Webex as the video conferencing tool and it seemed to work fairly well at least right until this very moment as I turned off the stream to go into the booth to record this, they took a ten minute recess because apparently one of the witnesses. was having an issue with their stream or feed, and I'm wondering if it might have been Jeff Bezos because at least thus far were almost an hour and a half into the testimony and he hadn't been asked a single question. Anyway back to the whole idea of testifying remotely if I were going to do one of those rate, my video call backgrounds reports. Bezos look like he was in some sort of executive boardroom, lots of tasteful Chomsky's behind him. Look like he was in a conference room at a high end law firm I couldn't tell what Zuckerberg was sitting in front of it looked like closed vertical blinds almost like I don't know some sort of like a bunker like if you're battening down your house for a Hurricane Tim, Cook was in front of some sort of tasteful plant trough though he was clearly working off an ipad pro. Let's start off with what the Fab four had to say in their opening statements. Amazon's Jeff bezos underscored Amazon's job creation, its investments in social causes and its role in supporting small and medium-sized businesses. And made the case that Hey Amazon is just a tiny competitor in a huge global market quote. The global retail market we compete in is strikingly large and extraordinarily competitive Amazon accounts for less than one percent of the thousand five, trillion dollar global retail market and less than four percent of retail in the US unlike industries that are winner take all there's room in retail for many winners for example. More than eighty retailers in the US. Alone earn over one billion dollars in annual revenue like any retailer we know that the success of our store depends entirely on customer satisfaction with their experience in our store every day Amazon competes against large established players like target Costco Kroger and of course, Walmart a company more than twice Amazon size, and while we have always focused on producing a great customer experience. For retail sales done primarily online sales initiated online are now in even larger Growth Area for other stores Walmart's online sales grew seventy four percent in the first quarter and customers are increasingly flocking disservices invented by other stores. Amazon still can't match at the scale of other large companies like curbside pickup and in store returns and quote alphabets. Soon, Darpa, Chai, said that Google also operates in a highly competitive. Market and that it's free products benefit the average American quote. A competitive digital ad marketplace gives publishers, advertisers, and therefore consumers an enormous amount of choice pichai stated, for example, competition and ads from twitter instagram comcast and others has helped lower online advertising costs by forty percent over the last ten years with these savings pass down to consumers through lower prices in areas like travel and real estate Google faces strong. For search queries for many businesses that are experts in those areas. Today's competitive landscape looks nothing like I. Did five years ago let alone twenty one years ago when Google launched its first product Google search people have more ways to search for information than ever before and quote. Tim Cook of Apple said that the APP store has opened the gate wider for software developers. Also, apple doesn't have dominant market share quote as much as we believe, the iphone provides the best user experience. We know it is far from the only choice available to consumers Cook said after beginning with five hundred APPs today the APP store hosts more than one point seven, million, only sixty of which are apple software. Clearly, if apple is a gatekeeper, what we have done is open the gate wider we want to get every APP we can on the store, not keep them off and quote. And facebook's mark. Zuckerberg said well, but he said a thousand times before that facebook knows it has more work to do on things like fighting misinformation and that you know companies aren't bad simply because they're big. And he took pains to point out that facebook is an American success story quote although people around the world use our products. FACEBOOK is a proudly American company. He said, we believe in Values Democracy Competition Inclusion and free expression that the American economy was built on many other tech companies share these values, but there's no guarantee our values will win out for example China. Is Building its own version of the Internet focused on very different ideas and they are exporting their vision to other countries as Congress and other stakeholders. Consider how antitrust laws support competition in the US. I believe it's important to maintain the core values of openness and fairness that have made America's digital economy, a force for empowerment and opportunity here and around the world and quote. In his opening remarks, the chairman of the Committee David. Sy-. Selena Rhode. Island. Laid out three areas of inquiry that the was scheduled to delve into at least in questioning from the Democratic Congress folk more on that in A. Quitting CNBC, each platform allegedly serves as a quote bottleneck for a key channel of distribution and quote the platforms allegedly used their control over digital infrastructure to Sir Vail other companies, their growth business activity, and whether they might pose a competitive threat and use that information to maintain their own power and third the platforms allegedly abused their control over current technologies to extend their power through tactics like self referencing their own products. Quote. Prior to the cove nineteen pandemic, these corporations already stood out as titans in our economy. Silly said in the wake of Covid nineteen however, they are likely to emerge stronger and more powerful than ever before, and he concluded by saying quote, our founders would not bow before a king nor should we bow before the emperor's of the online economy and quote? But as I say, while this was labelled as an anticompetitive antitrust inquiry, it seems like the Republican Congress folk were primarily interested in probing alleged bias against conservative users. In fact, Jim Jordan. One of the ranking Republican representatives spent most of his opening remarks railing against. which if that continues would basically be exactly what all of the CEOS in the talking head boxes would be hoping for right lots of distraction and no real spotlight on them. In fact, a lot of the most heated questions directed at a company that's not even present. We'll see if that continues but I have to say straight off Chairman Sicily and was very specific targeted sharp questions. He kept interrupting folks when they started to stray into doublespeak and the very nature of the questions from him and others at least so far. This wasn't like previous congressional hearings we've covered where the congress folk didn't seem to even understand the businesses they were investigating, and maybe that was because I don't know if you saw the woman sitting very prominently very obviously behind Mr. Cecil lean. Let me let the Washington Post fill you in on who that was quote as a twenty eight year old law student Lena Con penned a twenty four thousand word article for Yale Law Journal titled Amazon's antitrust. Paradox. The article described how US antitrust law isn't equipped to deal with tech giants such as Amazon. Even as the company has made itself as essential to commerce in the twenty first century in the way that railroads and telephone systems had in the previous century con now works as counsel for the antitrust subcommittee she has worked with Sylvain to develop his case against the tech giants including Amazon and quote. As I said, the questioning is continuing as I speak these words in fact I just heard that they came back from their recess. The whole thing did kick off hour late only getting started at one PM, eastern? So I don't think it'll be done before for five PM at least. So again, I'll put together a summary of all of the juicy exchanges happening now for tomorrow.
Tech Giants Gird for Tough Hearing in House Antitrust Probe
"Of the minds on Capitol Hill today. Big Tech testifies to lawmakers as the heads of Facebook, Apple Google And Amazon will be grilled on antitrust concerns. Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg, Google's soon DARPA Chai Apple's Tim Cook and making his first appearance before Congress Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos will all appear virtually before the House Judiciary subcommittee on antitrust as the subcommittee has been conducting a year long investigation of big tax market dominance. A central issue for lawmakers, as they reviewed these massive companies is whether existing competition policies and century old antitrust laws are adequate for overseeing today's tech giants.
Big Tech CEOs testify before House Judiciary antitrust subcommittee
"To lawmakers as the heads of Facebook, Apple, Google and Amazon will be grilled on antitrust concerns. Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg, Google's soon DARPA Chai Apple's Tim Cook and making his first appearance before Congress Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos will all appear virtually before the House Judiciary subcommittee on antitrust. As the subcommittee has been conducting a year long investigation of big tax market dominance. A central issue for lawmakers as they reviewed these massive companies is whether existing competition policies and century old antitrust laws are adequate for overseeing today's tech giants. Mark Malard
Jeff Bezos' First Time: Amazon CEO Faces Testimony Before Congress
"A focus on Capitol Hill, The CEOs of Amazon, Facebook alphabet and Apple face a hearing on antitrust issues. Today, Sarah Friar covers the tech industry for Bloomberg. It's going to be quite historic because these men had never testified together in just days case. He's never testified at all. This will be his first time on the stand, so it is going to be quite noteworthy. Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, son DARPA Shy and Tim Cook a run companies with the combined value of nearly $5 trillion. They'll face questions about privacy breaches, election misinformation, and the spread of racist and violent content will bring it all to you Live on Bloomberg radio and television at noon Wall Street Time. Also in
Dan Guido of Trail of Bits - The Evolution of Smart Contract Security
"So I've been doing security stuff for the better part of my life started probably when I was about thirteen fourteen, breaking into my school computers, like when does as when does. Luckily escaped being severely punished for that but I ended up going to college for concentration program and cybersecurity. It was called politicking university when I went there, but now the Nyu School of Engineering and they have one of these NSA center of excellence programs that teach kids a formalized education in Cybersecurity I think the people that are a little bit younger than me have a lot more formalized education and people that are a little bit older than me, don't they learned? Learned from their peers, learned and kind of like a master apprentice kind of set up, so I'm right on the cusp of that, so I have a formal background in computer, science and computer security, and this is the only field that I've ever been interested in working in, so I've worked at the Fed reserve doing incident response, helping prevent people hacking into the currency reserve the United States. I've been a consultant at Isaac Partners now NC group I saw that Isaac. Isaac partners before they were acquired help start their office in the on the East Coast worked with dozens of technology companies across the globe, but I was pretty frustrated that it seemed like an unending treadmill that you kind of go back to clients year after year, and there's always the same bugs, and they don't really internalize the information that you give them. I thought that there was some improvement that we could make, and I wanted to make fundamental improvements to the. The whole field so I found a trail with two friends of mine back in twenty twelve to fundamentally advance the science of computer, science and computer security I think by and large succeeded at doing that very small ways. The company started as a Darpa contractor. We worked on for your long research programs in Automated Program Analysis and Advanced Cryptography, and then from there we've branched out to help provide those advances to commercial firms and now to blockchain firms, so that's. I guess the medium length overview of where I came from and what we're doing now. Tell us about how you got interested in blockchain as a cryptographic field. Because basically found a trade of bits and two thousand twelve, and obviously, then it was pretty new, so what exactly spoke to you about it? A couple of things I think it was really driven by employee interest there about two or three people in the company that were just really enamored with blockchain technology, because it was a Greenfield, not necessarily because it was anything that you could do with blockchain, but because the field was in its infancy, it was a chance to start over it was there were no security tools. There was no security knowledge. People were building their own programming languages building their own compilers. The execution environment looked a little bit different, so there was this huge gap of knowledge that we could rush into fill and create things that were. From the first step back about three to four years ago, we had a couple people dabbling in that area of technology, and what we contributed was a symbolic verifier. That was our very first thing. We didn't raise our hands and say hey. We'll audit your code for you. We're engineers, so we set up a little unit of people that wrote Symbolic Capable A. A theory in virtual machine, a tool that we have called manticore, and then once we were able to do that. We realized that Hey, this is actually kind of valuable and people would love to work with us to improve their own security, so because we'd already mastered the field through that activity that research activity. That's how we started offering services for
Hypersonics: Where the Technology is and Where it is Going
"We're here to talk about hypersonic technologies, and you know the really changing the world for military competition among the world's nations to create weapons so fast and maneuverable. They're very hard to shoot down to innovations that could enable rapid civilian travel from New York to Hong Kong or multi-stage access to space. These hypersonic pursuits are really pushing the boundaries. Of National Budgets and the laws of physics. Wanted to turn to Graham, I He really helped. Conceive of a grand package of stories. We have on hypersonic weapons and hypersonic technologies and I wondered if you could give us a broad overview and a snapshot of these developments. For our listeners. Yes, so the mantra of hype has always been that. Hypersonic is the future and always will be well the news as that. this is the future or getting close to the future we after decades and decades of on and off development we, we have several hypersonic weapons programs that are that are getting close to. That are either in the early stages of operation. If they're in Russia or China, or the US are getting close to operation so. So, we thought it was a good time to sort of bring our readers up to speed. Both on the on those weapons systems that are that are in those final stages of development early stages of deployment. the evolving. Field of how do we counter these weapons? Because as you say, there are very very difficult to to intercept. And also, to really make clear to people that we are just at the beginning, even after all these decades we are still just at the beginning of this journey, and there are an awful lot of technical challenges that still lie ahead for hypersonic spirit, really to to realize its potential and become more than just a a niche capability more than just you know, in essence, very limited capability, but something that is much more flexible incapable of our time, and as you say, could be used in in applications well beyond the initial military applications. So this was an attempt to sort of. Take a step back and take a look at where we got to, but where we also still have to go. Steve I wanted to turn to you next to. You really delved into our. The United States is. Hyper Sonics Offensive and defensive weapons capabilities. It seems like the US is is. In a transition phase from Technological Development to really winnowing that field down to technologies that might be producible. Can you talk about some of? The the most viable programs that are underway. The army has one. Why don't you start? Challenge where to start right I mean there's three different tracks of hypersonic. Weapons there's four different operational prototypes at least three different demonstrators. Those are just the ones we know of when we talked to contractors like Lockheed and Raytheon. They say they're also working on a couple of classified programs that we're not totally sure what what they are. Let me start in kind of picking up on where Graham was You know saying we're here, we're we're in the age of Hyper Sonics. And really that began on a specific day. It was Mayford twenty seventeen. That was when the secretary of the Air Force at the time. Lisa Diso signed the authorization. For the for the requirement of the airlines, rapid response weapon and that was A. That is a historic moment in the era of hypersonic. That was the first time military service stood up and said we are going to. Weaponize this technology. This thing that we've been working on and you know playing with experimenting with for decades we're GONNA make it a weapon now. Obviously, they were doing that because Russia and China already beat them to the punch. In in that case, but The for US hypersonic technology. It was an historic moment So you know And, that was the air force doing it the army navy weren't that far behind after completing a fleet experiment. One of the Common Hypersonic Glide Body in November of two thousand, seventeen the army and navy made the commitment to jump in to hypersonic weapons programs as well. So where we are today, so it's three years on. A. we you know we're starting to just like every other weapons development program in Hightech. You know endeavor from the Pentagon. There are some issues right? Arrow is probably about a year behind schedule. It's risk reduction effort. Darpa working on. The tactical boost glide program. It's also a year behind schedule The overall program is thirty nine thirty nine percent over budget going to the Government Accountability Office. They've had to cancel one program. The Hypersonic Conventional Strike Weapon, which was going to use the same common hypersonic right buddy that would be the army and the navy versions of the same missile. They canceled that diverted the funding to cover the offset in Arrow. And the meantime they've also launched a follow onto a scrim jet powered missile demonstrator. So, there's been a lot of different moving
"darpa" Discussed on Main Engine Cut Off
"Hello and welcome to main engine cutoff. I'm Anthony Colangelo WanNa talk today about a Darpa program that has been Quite the saga over the years. This is the robotic servicing of geosynchronous satellites program R. S. For Short this has had a tumultuous past few years. Sorta roll the clock back and give you the full context. This is a program that was designed to obviously by its name. Demonstrate Robotic servicing on satellite specifically charged targeting geosynchronous here but it was maybe a little more expensive than that in general so the the basics of it was that. Darpa was looking for a partner to build the spacecraft bus which would host developed by Darpa and I believe it was the US Naval Laboratory. That we're working on the robotics platforms and self. It would be two different robotic arms a couple of tools at the end of each. And ideally I think that the mission was to change out different parts on satellite whether solar panels batteries. I'm not sure they ever determined exactly what they'd be changing out. But it was a demonstration mission. That could accomplish a series of tasks and they were going to host it. On a commercial payload a commercial provided bus. I should say not a payload and the agency itself would provide the launch. And the robotics payload and then the satellite operator would host them on their on their satellite bus. They would get them to where they need to be carry out the mission successfully and then and this was the critical part after the Darpa demonstration was done. These satellite would be turned over to that satellite producer to be commercialized from there. So they could offer satellite servicing Partnerships or are Or Services I guess would be not really partnerships to other satellites in the area that turned out to be a point of contention and led to a lawsuit so Darpa awarded this contract to SSL space systems the row. They are a division of Maxwell Technologies. Now sorry for all the names here just trying to get you up to speed on on how all this worked so as a one that initial contract to host the RS GS Payload Northrop Grumman. Who at the time was orderly to Cain nother Northrop Grumman? They sued over this award because they said that Darpa was funding. Another company in in Something that is redundant to what they were already working on. And there was some clause in the law that said the government should not directly compete with commercial entities. That are trying to do the same thing. So they sued over that saying that The turning of this satellite from a Darpa demonstration into a commercially available option was directly competing with what they were working on at the time it was mission extension vehicles and mission robotic vehicles that lawsuit eventually got thrown out. There was basically the trio of things that were being argued over was north of gremlins mission. Extension Vehicles Darpa and Sol's our SDS program. And then there is another program at NASA called Restore L. If you remember about two years ago I went down to NASA Goddard and talked with the team working on restoring L. That is a program that NASA is working on to refuel. Land Sat Satellite. So this was the kind of landscape that everyone was arguing about. Being redundant and competing with commercial partners and look at NASA is already doing this kind of thing eventually that all got tossed out and SSL was pushing on the program with Darpa north of Grummin continued work on their mission. Extension VEHICLE FLASH FORWARD. A couple of years that was in the late two thousand seventeen timeframe early twenty nineteen. Sol cancelled their agreement with Darpa. Because at the time Max are was going through hell to put it honestly. They had a digital globe. Satellite worldview four that failed just after launching and was a huge insurance hit. It was like you know hundreds of millions of dollars that they lost from world. War worldview four dying so early on orbit they also had at the time. The geostationary satellite market was really down. There weren't a lot of orders. So they had a bunch of layoffs that were selling properties. They were kind of in a tailspin for a little bit of time. Their stock price was going. I think dropped zero off the end of their stock price. They were having a hell of a time so early. Twenty nineteen. They cancelled this contract and they said that they were not able to find an economically viable path to support our SDS within the timeframe that they needed considering their financial situation. And because this was a public private partnership in that way of hosting a Darpa payload and eventually becoming a commercial platform this was couched in a private or public private partnership in which the company was was supposed to be able to find a commercial offering for the satellite. After that was part of the deal at Darpa would be providing some funding they would provide a launch but that the company would be investing heavily in this as well because of that eventual payoff. But for Max. Are you know they were looking at a short term problem and this was a long term payoff? It was going to be another two or three years before this got up on orbit. Did it's demonstration and then would be able to start making money for them and at the time that would just wasn't going to work so they terminated the agreement from there. We follow two different tracks for this saga Darpa then had to go through the political ramifications of that and figure out if they were going to have money to reward this program to some other provider figure out if that was even in the cards for them figure out. If they can get the additional money needed through the acquisitions process and Northrop Grumman. All along was continuing to work on their mission extension vehicles. Obviously we know now that the mission extension vehicles have worked out just a couple of weeks back mission extension vehicle one docked with Intel Sat. Ninety one if you have not seen the photos from this you've got to check them out. They are pretty spectacular. Black and white. But you've got this view of Intel sad ninety one with the whole earth in the background and it's just beautiful beautiful imagery from this but they successfully docked with Intelsat nine. Oh One they had quite a campaign of rendezvous with this coming in a couple of different times eventually did dock with Intelsat nine and they are now They've taken over You know the propulsion in pointing services on that satellite so that is the scope of mission extension vehicle as its name implies. It extends the mission of a satellite. It does so by taking over propulsion attitude control everything that is essentially needed except for the payloads on the satellite itself. That are transmitting broadcasting back down to Earth or whatever. Their job is It's taking over all of the other stuff. Maybe the satellite has run out of fuel. Maybe it has some other issue that it can't maintain its Pointing on its own and this takes over for it. So at this point emmy one is Going to complete a five year mission within zell sat nine to one that is the initial contract for this mission extension vehicle. It's bringing it down from. Its GRAVEYARD ORBIT. That is three hundred kilometers above geostationary orbit. It'll bring it back down into juice stationary orbit and begin services. Once again after that five years is up. The mission extension vehicle should have about ten years of life span left so it can go off and service other satellites in geostationary orbit and that's the business model here. You're you're letting somebody extend their useful time of that payload on orbit for a couple of years without paying for a huge launch so without a massive investment you're extending the life of that huge asset that you already have up in space and eventually over you know that fifteen year lifespan of mission extension vehicle north of Grummin expects to make significant profit. They can launch a mission extension vehicles as secondary payloads heading up to geostationary transfer orbit then geostationary orbit and do this fifteen years of service and make a good amount of money If you run the numbers it it does turn out to be. You know millions of dollars of profit if you obviously don't know the exact prices of everything that's involved here but it's not hard to really do some math to show that this does make some millions of dollars over that lifespan. Now from here mission extension vehicle to is already on its way. It's not launched yet but it's on its way to launch. Intelsat again has an agreement to be the first customer mission extension vehicle to so mission extension vehicle line seems to be quite lucrative for Northrop Grumman and they do have plans to push beyond simple life extension to something called the mission robotic vehicle and that is the second component of this satellite servicing market for North. From and the difference. Here is that the mission robotic vehicle will be launched. It has a couple of robotic arms and would also has on board is something they called mission extension pots so instead of a full second satellite that goes on and attach is typically to the engine of these Ju- stationary satellites. These would be much smaller. Pods that the robotic vehicle would go up and attached to the satellite itself The most the most recent visualization. I've seen shows it attaching to the engine. The Same Way. This mission extension vehicle does where it clamps on to the engine on the back of the satellite and these pods are much smaller. So the idea is one robotic vehicle can carry many different pods. That would go up. They would provide. I would assume much shorter service life spans for these vehicles but just because it can't fit as much fuel inside but if each pod can offer three to five years of extension services and each robotic vehicle carry at least three probably up to five or six pods on a mission. You can see that you are able to offer a lot more mission extension services to a lot more satellites in a much shorter time span so instead of banking on five or ten years of time. Line before you're turning profit with a mission extension vehicle that could be done and crunched into five years with just as much Just as many agreements signed with these different satellites norther Grummin. Seems like they are really going in on this mission extension services idea as lucrative business model and I like the idea of mission extension pods because specifically because of that timeline crunch. Who knows where the industry's going to be at five? Ten fifteen years from now especially considering things that are gonNA come online new launch vehicles reusable upper stages hopefully space tugs you. Name it. There's going to be a lot of shifts in the industry. So if you're able to identify mission extension services as a valuable business for the current ageing generation of satellites in. Jiu Stationary orbit mission. Extension pods can let you offer those services to as many as possible in the next five ten years and really focus that revenue generation on a need. That is present right now and then. You're building up all this experience of these different vehicles different robotic operations. You're pushing it every single time. You're launching when it's when you get five or ten years out and things have significantly changed. Hopefully you've got enough of a base built up of customers and experience and technology that you can respond to where the market is at that time. So that's where north of Bremen was doing and that's kind of where they stand.
US Air Force starts effort to buy a 'flying car'
"Air Force general David that tool and now dean of the Mitchell institute for aerospace studies frequent guest good morning general good to have you Hey good morning here are you today great I want to ask you about preparedness for the pandemic but first I just that I read this and I want to ask you about it there's a headline over the military times U. S. Air Force starts effort to buy a flying car it's a Jetsons kind of story they're looking for something called agility prime what do you know about this general and and are we going to see flying cars anytime soon well he was in effort to basically initiate a variety of efforts I had to look at how we might be able to supplement the capabilities that are provided by the V. twenty two which is the vertical lift aircraft in intense stimulate industry to look at different and new technologies to bring those kinds of capabilities where you can take off and small tiny areas and not have to rely on thousand foot multiple thousand foot runway so we'll see what how is that how it turns out but again it's a stimulus or not he has to get a new ideas out there and to get something concrete they can provide the kind of vertical lift capability in small spaces and do it let's say within a year that you know general once you get the vertical left the biggest hit on the strategic triad that is part of the Air Force is that you need runways and runways can be targeted once you've got a vertical lift and develop the technology to the point like the osprey then all of the strategic deterrent the airforce carries can be deployed anywhere in the world right well that's true although you I would say we haven't seen the end of the runway it's important to understand that they're over eighteen holes and runaways with over six thousand feet a paid service around the world so yeah you're you can't move but guess what there are a lot of them but your point is very valid one in that it would significantly con complicate any adversary he we're attacking six bases so if it is one of the technologies we need to continue to explore did expand the capabilities of the U. S. Air Force now couple questions that are there about politics and defense general debt to DARPA came up in the debate the Democrats had on Tuesday night president binder right president Biden attempted to say he ran dark but I thought are you going up here could you tell people what DARPA is this they have an idea what what the Democrats are talking about here yeah sure that darkness is an acronym that stands for defense advanced research projects agency it is a an arm of the department of defense in its focus is to look at no near term technologies but future technologies into see how they might be able to bring or research new and innovative ideas and then transition them to reality to provide it bans capability as rapidly as soon as possible some of the capabilities that his a ball out of their defense advanced research projects agency in the past are things like the internet you know contrary to al gore's statement that he invented the internet he didn't the defense advanced research projects agency did back in the late eighties so he that's just one example that I think everyone would be
Darpa Cranks Up Antibody Research to Stall Coronavirus
"There among the more than five thousand new coronavirus cases reported in just the past twenty four hours labs all over the world are racing to design diagnostic tests vaccines new therapies all to deal with the virus and here's Joe Palca is here to talk about a promising pilot program happening here in the U. S. hi Joe hi there what is it worth the effort who's behind it well it's an effort called the pandemic prevention platform or P. three and it's funded by the defense advanced research agency differences Vance research projects agency which does some really cool cutting edge stuff in science for the defense department and everybody else happens it's a four year program it started two years ago and their ideas to be able to respond rapidly to an emerging threat whether it's covered nineteen or something else any Jenkins runs the program for DARPA we envision the P. three five form actually functioning as a fire break in the instance that there's a pandemic outbreak what does she mean by far right well it's something that will at least temporarily protect someone from contracting the virus before a vaccine is ready it might be a stop gap therapy even and the department is interested because what if they have to deploy troops into an area where there is a pandemic going on and they want their trips to get their six without being hurt hi and if even if there were a vaccine you get a vaccine it takes a couple weeks to develop immunity so they want something to work right away but this is temporary would only last for about six months so I know it's complicated but can you explain how this temporary solution the P. five three platform works has two basic parts the first is to identify antibodies so those are the things that ARE immune system used to fight disease they're going to try and get antibodies from people who've been infected with covert nineteen and recovered okay so they you can fish those out of people's plasma their blood and then they're going to that usually that that takes some time but they're trying to shorten that pre to three weeks and then they're trying to develop a rug that can be used based on these antibodies not typically when you make a drug like that you become in these big bioreactors but they're going to try something different they're going to try and just take the genetic material that codes for these antibodies off and put that into people and that the people's own cells make the antibody so the people become the bio reactors but how long does all that take as any of us can make a difference for people who are suffering from the qualifiers well I put the question to DARPA's Amy Jenkins this technology could be used in this current corona virus I will carry out that that this is still a very early technology it has yes ban in human clinical studies but it has not been in thousands of patients it's been and tens of patients so again what does that mean about the time line well it means she thinks that there might be something ready in as soon as ninety days but we'll see two scientists really think that this can work so well the ones I talked to seem to think there's reason to believe that market Killian is a professor of cell biology at Albert Einstein college of medicine obviously is something very much and development but I think the strategy and the basic idea is sound so I I mean the ideas yet it's experimental it's cutting edge it's new but there's something it's something I'm I was actually when I came across this I was pretty surprised that it even existed but apparently it does and they're confident who knows okay well worth watching and here's Joe Palca thank you we appreciate it
The History of Facial Recognition
"We're back with part three of our journey through facial recognition in the first episode. We talked a lot a lot about The sort of the current landscape of a company focusing on facial recognition misuse of that in the last episode we focused primarily on the biological domain and Facial recognition and bring it back to technology to To finish up today So one of the things that we were looking at coming into today's episode episode was an article that I thought was really good in wired magazine again from this month from January of two thousand twenty by Shaun Raviv called the secret history of facial recognition recognition and. I will say I was surprised to find out how far back facial recognition projects go. This this goes into the nineteen sixty is. Yeah yeah this this. This is a really good read this article. I mean it's extremely well written. It almost has a I would say has very narrative flow to beginning with this scene in which an elderly researcher who is You know at this point. Believe confined to a wheelchair is instructing his son to WHO To unlock some old rotting files from the sixties and burn them in front of him in a garbage can in the garage or something. Yeah with you know and you can. He can tell their things about Classified Information Top secret or what have you on the documents. So it's a wonder wonderful ominous start to this article. Which of course deals predominantly with the origins of facial recognition touches on other at times inspiring firing and other times creepy and devastating scientific programs? That were going on or like in full swing during the sixties. So yeah one of the things that really comes home in this article. Is that the creepy -ness of facial recognition. Technology is not new. That's sort of been there since the very beginning. Yeah it's not one of these things. Swear even the author here mentions social media where it seems great. I and it's not until it's quote in the wild that we begin to realize. Oh yeah this is Civilization wrecking awfulness. And not just a fun. Way To share photos know at the time there was a realization that this was was Potentially problematic yeah and so it might not come as a big surprise especially given the story. We mentioned about burning documents that some of the earliest funding being for facial recognition technology research clearly came from the CIA and front companies set up to funnel CIA. Money Yeah this was. This was super interesting. the funding through these various phony companies and and do the CIA funding. Some of the stuff was was secret. Some the emit materials only come out to freedom of Information Act Filings and in some of the work was never published. A lot of the work was never published a To drive home the penis though one of the companies involved was this company panoramic which which was also tied to other programs including The project reject M. K.. Ultra who was one of eighty organizations that worked on Project K.. Ultra in particular quote sub projects ninety three and ninety four on the the study of bacterial and Fungal Toxins and the remote directional control of activities of selected species of animals animal control. Yeah like if I if I wanNA sick tigers at you from the other side of the world. Yeah in K.. Ultra just to remind everybody was CIA project that explored the potential. You'll for mind control using psychedelics and other tactics basically looking at ways to take these mind expanding a Agents and use them to break down the human psyche and then inevitably build something back up that they can could be tightly control now. Now the evidence today is that the mind control experiments. Kale didn't really work. They were really good at destroying the human mind because basically the project was responsible ensemble for psychological torture just a horrible program in a real blight on the scientific history of the United States. It's not the only blight but but I think an appalling when they were not good they did not figure out a way how to react to rebuild say an ideal sleeper agent agent out of the psychological destruction wrought. Yeah so a lot of this article focuses on this one main figure named Woody Bledsoe. who was a leader at this company opening a founder and leader at this company Panoramic Research Inc which you mentioned earlier which got a lot of business from C. I. A. and C.? I A. Front Organization organization funding in the sixties to study things like facial recognition. But if you put yourself back in the context of the nineteen sixties. I think one thing that's kind of funniest people then might not yet have realized how difficult of a project recognizing a face would be for a machine because we'd have tons of Saifi goes back decades before that were of course robots computers whatever just recognize people easily. Yeah and I think that's mainly because we would just we generally would just have a rough idea idea that a robot can do everything a person can do. A robot is a mechanical person. And you didn't have to think too hard about all the complexities involved there. I mean even the best example of nineteen sixty science fiction and really one of the twenty and twenty first centuries best examples science fiction two thousand one space odyssey it does does reference facial recognition capabilities. For how but it doesn't I wouldn't say that he really goes in depth about what that means but but how how does is able to recognize faces and even like can recognize faces when that is sketch put as opposed to Video feed or a photo. Yeah and I I think we if you're not not well-versed in the computer technology world it might not be immediately apparent. What's so difficult about making the computer recognize a face but I you know our facial recognition in systems the things going on in our brain amazing capabilities and their analogue? Right you know face to face has all kinds of variables that move around all the time. It can be extremely difficult to reduce face to a set of new miracle values. which are what you need to do? In order to have a computer recognize a face. Yeah Yeah it's a I think we've explored in the previous episodes. It's Yeah there's there's a lot going on in facial. Recognition there are a number of challenges to at any distill not a perfected technology technology by any means true. And so I think it's reasonable to think of what he bledsoe and his colleagues as legitimate AI. Pioneers even with their work in the nineteen sixties here. Oh absolutely but I'm blitz was working with a number of highly talented IMF individuals sometimes on on projects like involving atomic weaponry Pity for instance before he became more focused on a another individual that he worked on concerning facial recognition was Helen Chan. Wolf breath. Wolf was involved in the development of shaky which is the robot which Darpa describes as quote the first mobile robot with enough artificial intelligence is to navigate on its own through a set of rooms? I think somebody at the company also worked on a robot called which mowed lawns a random and unattended pattern. I'm not joking. By the way that is the thing Raviv mentions no. Yeah it just always that that makes me think of the the old gumby short where the family have the robots that are doing Lawn care and home repair and they just go berserk and the Gumby family has to has to put them down. I don't think another one. Oh It's good. There is a an MSG through K.. Fava Avenue you're SPEC that sounds horrible it is it's are fine at the end. There's like a robot's head on the wall. It's terrifying material. But one of the things that ended ended up being the case. If you if you're trying to think okay in the sixties how would you even begin to get a computer to recognize the face across different images One of the problems is of course. The lack of existing digitized imagery at the time. Right I mean we live in a world. Where digital imagery is ubiquitous with us? It was not at all back then. There was almost none of it. Yeah today when you read about official recognition research that are often working off digital databases containing hundreds and thousands thousands of photographs at the time. Yeah how many digital Photographs were there in the world right so they actually had to have some kind of digitization as Asian process like they had to be able to take a photo intern that photo into some numbers that could then be interpreted by the machine to try to recognize a person. Or you know say that. Yeah that's the same person or not and so a lot of these methods involve number one recognition rules based on explicit measures for is not machine learning. They didn't have the machine learning methods. We have today back then. They would have to have explicit rules like the distance between randomly selected features features of the face so in the image. What's the difference between the left eyebrow in the right ear and the left eye and the corn right corner of the mouth or something and furthermore to get those measures they often had to resort to what they call a man machine approach? which was it would? Pair initial measurements made made by humans It would take those measurements. Turn them into numerical values and then train the computer to match based on those values which is quite wait laborious yes in the man machine approach was apparently necessary to input the measures basically until the seventies until Raviv writes quote in one thousand nine hundred ninety three a Japanese computer. Scientists named Takeo cannot Made a major leap in facial recognition technology using what was then a very rare commodity. A database base of eight hundred and fifty digitized photographs Eight hundred fifty Taken from the nineteen seventy world's fair in Swedish Japan developed a program that could extract facial features such as the nose mouth and eyes without human input. And so by doing that cannot he was able to finally eliminate the man part of the man machine. Approach the The human input of measuring and input of the values but throughout all of this period. I mean there were still huge huge problems with machine. Recognition faces like they they would sometimes get to the point where the system developed by by panoramic would be would be more efficient than humans at matching faces under ideal conditions. If you could get all the faces like oriented the same way looking right into the camera and all that the the the machine would be better than humans trying to match photos but if you just pollute the imagery a little bit and make people turn their heads have changed the lighting etc.. Yeah any kind of problems that suddenly the machine loses all its advantages and the humans are better again right and some of the other problems. That are still issues. Today were problems at the time like like depending too much on say an all white male database or something to that effect where you just do not have if you don't have a broad enough sample of of human appearances To really have a robust of facial recognition system. Right if it's not trained on humans men's generally it's not gonna work on humans general right And so yeah like the the racial bias problems that show up an existing facial recognition technologies today. Were basically there right from the
Chris Urmson: Aurora CEO - Autonomous Driving
"Hello and welcome to our first episode of behind. Find The tech in twenty twenty. I'm Christina Warren. Senior cloud advocate at Microsoft. And I'm Kevin Scott all right so Kevin. It is twenty twenty which Shh is both the new year and I guess a new decade although people will get weird technicalities and it's always a great Chance to kind of look back at what's happened over the last ten years and reflect on new opportunities. Yeah I mean I it. Is I think in their industry and for human beings in general really easy to get completely used to new innovations that in our lives. But like when you think back ten years ago the world looked like a very different place than it looks right now so smartphones were just catching on. They were nowhere near as ubiquitous as they are all right now and the things that you could do on them were far far more constrained than they are right. Now I mean for. For God's sake people were renting movies from blockbuster In two thousand ten right very blockbuster was actually still a thing and instagram hadn't even been invented yet. Coley different world you know I do now that we've hit twenty twenty. Do you have any forecasts about what the next year intact might bring her even the next decade. Well well I think one of the themes that we spent a bunch of time chatting about last year on the podcast was artificial intelligence machine learning and I think we are are certainly going to see the trends that that had started in the prior year's continue to accelerate as one of the reason why I'm really interested in chatting with our guest today So autonomous vehicles. For instance. I believe are going to make AK- ton of progress over the next couple of years in particular and I'm really looking forward to seeing some of that stuff. Play out yes I couldn't agree more. It's funny I don't have a driver's license But I've actually been on a few self driving car panels over the years and I I think the technology she behind it is so fascinating. Which is why? I'm really really excited about your conversation with today's guest. Chris Armstrong and Chris is an engineer. Who's known for his work in pioneering self driving car technology? Yeah and you know one of the reasons that I'm especially interested in self driving cars and I'm looking forward to this conversation that we're about to have Chris is that There's so many ways that the world is going to change for the good once we we are able to put this technology into the hands of lots of different companies so One of the things that will hear about Aurora's. They are a company building the self off driving car technology as a platform for other companies to use to build autonomous applications. And so you know one of the things that I'm sorta hopeful for that will come into the world in the not-too-distant future is some technologies. That may help my grandmother. So I'm I'm lucky enough to have a grandma that's still still alive. She's eighty nine years old and lives in a very rural place in Virginia And she can still drive which is awesome but the day is coming where she's not going to be able to To drive her car car in the same way that she is right now and Like then it begs the question of how she has access to all of the things that she needs in order to help her live and independent life. So how does she get her prescription medicines. Like how does she get her groceries and You know just just sort of the staple things that she needs to exist. And one of the things that I think could be really incredibly beneficial with these self driving thing. Technologies is Like the possibility that you'll be able to have autonomous deliveries for people like my grandmother. I think you're absolutely right. I think the potential for the stuff is really fantastic. So let's hear more about some of the potential for this technology from Chris Aronson Guest today is Chris. Samson Christie's the CO founder and CEO Vera accompanied the bill self driving vehicle technology before founding Aurora he was CTO. Google self driving car program prior to that. Chris was a faculty member of the Robotics Institute at Carnegie Mellon University where he was the technical director of the Darpa urban and grand challenge teams. I'm really excited to hear what he's up to these days. Hey Chris the the show. Thanks for having me so I love to start by learning how you got interested in technology in the first place as a kid. Were you taking engineering classes or programming classes when you were in high school. So are you discover that in college back. When I was in high school there wasn't really computer science at high school And so I Bought Oughta some kind of Tandy x eighty six clone or whatever Back when I was in probably ninth or tenth grade from money for my paper route A- and you know tried to learn to program at first where you go you know you don't if you recall this but you go to the bookstore and you'd buy You know this paperback for Back Book. That was program whatever it was and it was just the source code listing and this before C. D. Roms even pete which people probably don't even remember that that's right we Before that actually bought a commodore sixty four and of course that was exciting. Because it didn't have tape drive right right or it didn't have a floppy drive floppy yeah and five and a quarter inch. Discs that's what had YEP YEP so anyway so we was doing that and then this language C. Plus plus which seemed to be the hot new thing And so started. Actually the first programs I really learned with C. Plus plus. Wow that's rough. Yeah yeah it was a little crazy. A I mean I guess on some some level like CPS was challenging lodging first language. But the good thing is after you've mastered as downhill it's all downhill And so did. Did you know from all of this experience in high school that you wanted to get a computer science and engineering. Gary you know up in Canada so apply to you you know variety of schools got into into a couple of them And then in my senior here I met a girl Turns out now. She's my wife. And decided I wanted to stay at the University of Manitoba which is right in central Canada and Manitoba and got into the computer engineering? School computer. Seem like you know they had a future.
What is adversarial AI and why does it matter?
"In fact there's a whole field of study known as adversarial a I actually aims to make artificial intelligence a little smarter as part of an N. P. our special series on the technologies that watch us dina dina temple Raszyn has more. artificial intelligence is all about showing the machine millions of examples so we can learn to recognize things in the real world and there's a pretty famous experiment about how easily this can go wrong it was conducted by a team of researchers led by UC Berkeley professor don sol let me start playing the video she and her colleagues made a video that showed how the full daylight and in this case for the system well it was driving a car the video is less than a minute long and it doesn't have any sound but it rocked the A. I. community so in the media at UC two frames side by side thank split screen all you need to know now is that each split screen is subtitled so you can see how the A. I. and specifically a subset of a I called image classification is making decisions inside the autonomous car you see the prediction given by the image classification system to try to predict what the traffic sign as so it's sort of like the car starting to think I'm a sign is coming I'm gonna have to make a decision right so song inner team had the A. I. system read to stop sign one was a perfectly normal stops the other was manipulated song had put one sticker below the S. and another above the in stop and is the car gets closer to it the subtitles are describing the A. eyes decision making process it reads the regular stops on just fine installing the card prepared to stop but the one with the stickers it thinks the sign read speed limit forty five miles an hour which would allow the car if this wasn't an experiment to blow right through the intersection to carefully place stickers was all it took to make a self driving car ran a stop sign so you were expecting it to mis read the sign and then it didn't you're happy about it is surprising so given how well it worked it works so well the people who were developing driverless cars tap the brakes. now to be fair songs team didn't just randomly throw some stickers onto a sign they knew exactly how the a size image classification system worked they knew which pixels of the sun to manipulate to fort which got the attention of people over DARPA the defense advanced research projects agency and understand why the military's top research arm was so concerned I went to door by headquarters to meet with have a sequel for us in Haiti now have thank you for making this she's the director of something called the guard project guard stands for guaranteeing a I'd robustness against deception and just like it sounds it's looking for ways to make artificial intelligence more hack proof the way a I makes decisions is a bit of a black box but see common says if you understand what the system is chosen to focus on you can fool it and if your door but you're less worried about a stop sign then say putting a sticker on the tank and because that sticker with his particular kind of we think that this time his acting ambulance and he needed to be opened the gates to let the ambulance corps and the reason to study all of this isn't to scare us about ARI old though it does that too researchers want to understand the limits of it so they can fix it kind of like gold fashion hackers who used to call up software companies let them know about flaws in their coding so they could send patches don songs is the bottom line is machine learning an AI aren't as powerful as people think they are we do really needs Neil and more break throughs before we can really get there so would you ride in a driverless car that's the day. I mean you. how you doing having a test drive. and by the way dawn song special stop sign with the stickers isn't fooling driverless cars anymore it's now hanging in the science museum in London. of an exhibit about our driverless future. dina temple Reston NPR news
How Data Tracking Affects Your Life
"How I wear my Fitbit all the time I mean all the time and it was a Christmas gift that you gave me and that actually stayed in the box for eight months when I took about the boxes it where if you been all my life is wonderful Washington posted a story the other day that said that the day may come if it hasn't already happened where the data. that is gathered via my Fitbit that's the hours that I sleep how much of it is rem sleep how many flights of stairs I walked calories are burned blah blah blah that data could be valuable to someone somewhere or maybe the government and I said whoa yeah now we're not talking about the apple watch which I again if the Fitbit is harvesting data you know the apple people to do doing the same thing and they're been stories about your smart TV is that TV ads your watch and watching you and listening to what you're. so that point is great is cited to to turn to a man who has been nice enough to join us for how many years now well he was just a kid he has the college kid and now he's a doctor is doctor Patrick Crispin joining us tonight by popular demand because we put out the word we're going to be on the radio people that are you gonna have doctor Crispin odd so we do have him on the radio with us tonight and Patrick how are you this evening. how are you okay wait wait wait verily here Patrick okay because we're talking technology when. transaction okay take you to get home. go we can't blame this on. no that was operator error my first mistake how you know what okay guess what they're gonna send you home that's it yeah. real soon. Patrick I know when I sent you a text the other day and I said is this possible I could almost hear you rolling your eyes this is been going out for a long time right. yes I I a and it was your devices your smart devices aren't necessarily listening to use so that what you're saying that Hey I really like leopard print and leopard print you showing up in your in your feet because some computer is listening. you take her computer is predicting you. we are so absolutely tracked in everything we do every place we go on the internet every different like that we had on Facebook everything that we do in the end Instagram or whatever that there are no giant databases about you and people like you and it's eight and it's really relatively easy to target very very very specific subgroups like people who like rockabilly and collect guitars and live in Chicago and wear all black. a group for the socks. right. ruby is actually it is absolutely trivial for this the amount of data that is available about you is just. overwhelming there's actually a documentary on Netflix called the great hack and it talking about Cambridge analytica and all the other things and he once you realize what's going on there yeah this is where we're in a really interesting world were every one of us could be really have the advertising targeted us just a very very pointed way where I can sit there and say I want people in Pasadena possible I need to track just be the the whole thing I think. that really was a a a red herring basically the the United States government is thinking about creating this advanced research projects agency performed Beastie Klay like DARPA entered it was great I mean darker came up with the internet became a unix to kick off the cloudy can't with GPS Seery web conferencing any now I want to do it with health data and looking for more days they are say in our European would normally behavioral signs of someone headed towards a violent explosive act no I can't imagine what bike fit it would tell me now but that I'm headed to some sort of a violent exploits the explosive act that said if you take that data. from an combine it with data from other smart devices like apple watches Amazon echo Google homes along with information from your health care provider slate the radio grasp lake. even can't analysis white has our cause yeah it it's really actually pretty simple to. kind of identify certain behaviors that might be a warning sign I would also say that if you really want to track. what you do is you track for somebody cell phone location and this is where it gets real scary and and for those who are are big fans of the second ma'am and I'm going to send a chill down your spine there's really nothing stopping the government right now tracking how many times you go to a gun right. or how many times at our how many times you go hang out at at certain locations by tracking your cell phone so. this is something that would be like a red flag the wooden makes them look to you first I think I can read it but I don't think there's any any law that prevents them all yeah. everything's which you can do is if you really want to kind of make yourself. not not even on the internet could you can't be hidden on the internet but some things you can do there is a browser plugin that I've been recommended for a long time it's got a really silly name and it's from the Electronic Frontier Foundation a call privacy badger. and privacy about your work to chrome Firefox opera Firefox an android. does is you can solve this whole this whole thing your browser and it sends a trigger to all the websites that you're visiting say do not track me track me I don't want to be tracked. now if the site. ends up finally the network norm reads it what ends up happening is this privacy badger is going to look for tracking cookies and if it sees the same tracking cookies on three more or more different web sites it blocks does how so what it's meant to do is there are cookies that are being put on your computer some computer good like you you know it's it's it's your card to get back into a website some some of tracking for site to site to site so privacy badger says okay you're you're you're working too much information about this for seven o'clock you and absolutely free of charge tracker blocking. outgoing make clicking for on Facebook Google Twitter this is a three just do a Google search for DFS twice privacy badger I really recommend installing that on your browser will just run in the background it just sits there until you start going out on the internet. it just sits there in the background running all the time and again hunter foundation is a not for profit organization at that is very very famous highly respected and you don't have to worry about losing any
Elon Musk hopes to put a computer chip in your brain
"Buddy Elon Musk because it's always fun to talk about Elon Musk and this time the man wants to put a computer in your brain this past Tuesday Tuesday night at a presentation at the California Academy of Sciences Elon Musk announced the first initiative from his company called Neuro Link and guys. It's GonNa blow your minds got it okay. Here's what it it's it's a tiny computer chip that musk envisions will be stitched to our brains by a robot Adam Rogers our colleague at wired covered this for us and he has all the details. Adam writes that the chip is custom built to receive and process the electrical action potentials that signal activity in the neurons in your brain then the chip is connected to wires that embedded to your brain tissues received these spikes and a robotic sewing machine is what puts those wires there with quote unquote enviable precision. So what does this actually supposed to do. Basically it would turn your brains activity to machine readable code that a computer can understand and when you think about it there are lots of noble or helpful ways in which this could be used as Adam points out <hes> even if this does seem like the neural lace of science fiction nightmares it's like you could. I don't know something like this could help a blind person see or could help person control their prosthetic from their mind. The thing is though that this is going to inevitably take a while musk says he hopes to have this in a human patient by the end of next year. Lots of tests are going to happen. I other companies like facebook have been working on some kind of mine. Reading Technology Darpa has been funding brain computer interface research since the nineteen seventies <hes> now Adam does point out that the neural inc product revealed by musk does take this a seemingly different technical direction in some way but I think is if to say it might still be awhile before we see some effort like this come to fruition yeah and this estimation that he's going to have this in in human clinical trials within the next year seems completely bogus completely completely it was interesting to see at this event yuan announced that they had begun work in primates studies and the seemed to not just surprise the audience but in fact his team who seemed a bit like Whoa were. We supposed to talk about that <hes> because up until this point they've done some studies in rodents which you know any science reporter will tell you doesn't really show a lot about efficacy or safety <hes> so it seems like the timeline of the trials is very very off but what I find so interesting about neural link. Is that like many other <hes> Breen computer interface start ups Yulon's idea is that this isn't ultimately four people who are dealing with brain injuries right. He has his idea that originally it will be used for people who have paralysis or perhaps people who are quadriplegics just sort of connect parts of their brains that have become disconnected from the rest of their body but ultimately he sees this as a way to make us superhuman away way to tap into the brain as like a human A._p._i..
How Could Hypersonic Missiles Work?
"Today's episode is brought to you by the capital one venture card the capital one venture card you earn unlimited double miles every purchase every day and you can use those miles toward travel expenses like flights hotels rental cars and more just book and pay for your travel using your venture card and redeem your miles toward the cost capital one. What's in your wallet? Credit approval required capital one bank U._S._A.. An welcome to brain stuff production of iheartradio Hebron stuff Lauren Vogel bomb here at a meeting in Arlington Virginia in late two thousand eighteen. One of the Pentagon's top officials told an audience of defense executives that the U._S. is locked in a tight race with Russia and China to develop a new game changing weapon the could fly at many times the speed of sound in could be used to launch devastating attack upon an emmy in a matter of minutes these which was told by Michael de Griffin the Department of Defense Undersecretary for Research at engineering that of all of the technological marvels at the Pentagon hoped to create developing a hypersonic missile Dole was his highest priority. It's hard to understand why hypersonic missiles technology that could be deployed as soon as the mid twenty twenty s sounds like the sort of exotic menace that villain would dream up in James Bond thriller. We could get them to work. Hypersonic missiles could have the ability to fly and maneuver it speeds between five and twenty five thousand kilometers per hour at a range of altitudes up to one hundred kilometers above earth surface for our non-metric friends. That's about three to fifteen thousand miles per hour at up to. Sixty two miles high at the edge of orbital space these capabilities could make a nightmare to defend against them because they would be moving so fast that it would be difficult to predict where they were about to strike until the last few minutes before impact end because the missiles travel. It's such a high speed their sheer kinetic energy alone would enable them to wreak destruction without carrying any conventional explosives or nuclear warheads. There are different potential methods of attaining fantastic speed what approaches to fire conventional missile that would in turn release smaller hypersonic glide vehicle which would fly up into the upper layers of the atmosphere another approach would utilize a rocket or advanced jet engines such as a scrammed jet military visionaries have in contemplating hypersonic weapons for decades but it wasn't until recently the concept begin to see him close to fruition not due to anyone specific breakthrough in technology but rather due to a combination of progresses and political motivation. We spoke by email with Eon de buoyed a professor of airspace engineering at the University of Michigan. He explained to develop a missile. You I have to show that the platform can fly emission of interest that was demonstrated in the U._S.. In Two thousand ten to twenty fourteen by scrammed jet powered demonstration Asian flights while the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency or Darpa to flight tests of their H.. T. V. to boost glide vehicle ended in failure. Significant progress was demonstrated an important lessons learned in an overlapping time period the Pentagon and demonstrated longer range hypersonic vehicle capabilities and their conventional prompt strike program Darpa in the Air Force then partnered to mature many of the systems needed on a platform to make into a weapon as such as the guidance navigation and control materials. Dell's structures and rocket boosters but the U._S. wasn't alone. Interest in developing hypersonic capabilities Boyd said China was watching and learning and at some point started investing hyper sonics since two thousand fifteen it became evident that significant progress was being made that at least in numbers of flight tests conducted appeared to show China Outpacing U._S. efforts and in Russia where they've worked on hypersonic for decades like the U._S. also seem to have had recent successes but test flights in response to the Chinese and Russian progress the trump administration is pushing to develop hypersonic weapons as soon as possible and is requesting funding of two point six billion dollars for hypersonic research by the Air Force Navy Army and Darpa in its budget request for the twenty thousand financial all year the managing editor for National Security for the Center for Public Integrity. One are Jeffrey Smith reported in The New York Times magazine that spending on developing hypersonic weapons could rise to five billion dollars a year as the U._S. pushes to develop a deployable hypersonic or Sonic Missile System in the next two to three years though hypersonic missiles could carry nuclear warheads the missiles being developed by the U._S. will only be equipped with conventional explosives but they'll still be plenty fearsome as Smith wrote in The Times of quote the missiles function like nearly invisible power drills at smash holes in their targets to catastrophic affect. They'll impact their targets with a force equivalent to three to four tons of T._N._T.. According to Speth in some ways hypersonic. Like missiles presented different and perhaps even scarier threat to peace than present nuclear arsenals because they could enable a nation to launch a surprise attack and crippling enemies ability to retaliate leaving it helpless against the threat of nuclear attack. They'd be difficult to defend against I for a number of reasons their speed the fact that they fly in an area between aviation and spaceflight that we've never had to defend in and they're maneuverable meaning that have to be tracked throughout their flight with accuracy Boyd explained another issue quote put this class of missiles is not covered by any currently valid weapons treaty. This poses a number of concerns including the fact that the nation's primarily involved the U._S.. China and Russia do not have established protocols in place for the use of these systems finally only the potential for a hypersonic weapon to carry either a conventional warhead or a nuclear warhead means that a nation under threat wouldn't know whether a nuclear response should be considered that all means that in the near future hypersonic missiles could lead to a continuous atmosphere of hyper anxiety in which nations might be afraid to not strike first or to instantly launch a counter attack at the first hint of trouble or at the very least it could prompt nations to spend even more money on not just counter-attacks but defense measures. Today's episode was written by Patrick J tiger and produced by tyler playing brain stuff is a production of iheartradio's house works for more on this and lots of other military topics that are home planet has networks dot Com and for podcasts from iheartradio iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Apple will finally tell us why it spent $1B on video (The 3:59, Ep. 521)
"Three fifty nine. I'm Ben FOX Ruben Joni salesman apple is expected to reveal a rumored video service and a new subscription service at an event next month. I think it's March twenty fifth. All right. Yep. Okay. Is this apple Netflix? Is that what we're all expecting? No. Yeah. Well, it's actually a little bit more like apple Amazon prime video more. So than or worse thing. The idea. Now, all of this is speculation based on reporting. It's hasn't none of this has been confirmed by apple because they're still keeping mum on on everything has to do with this except that they. Yeah. Hyun on basically everything, but the understanding is that Apple's going to unveil video service a subscription video service so similar to net flex, but a little bit more like Amazon prime video might also have the ability to add on existing streaming services like HBO, although the reporting that HBO is holding out for better terms. But you know, stars stars the streaming service or another one Netflix also is one that like not shockingly is also not reportedly not involved. But yeah, Alison spending. A billion reportedly a billion dollars lining up all these really high profile television projects and up until now and continuing until March twenty fifth. We have no idea exactly how they're going to be distributed them letting people see them is this. So we're going to be able to watch planet of the apps on this slow. I assume so because you can watch planet of the app, which was Apple's first attempts at a television show in which went swimmingly did not do great. That's one that they distributed via apple music their subscription music service that was a video element to their subscription music. And it had other things on the subscription music service. That are video like they had a Taylor stuff concert special. If I remember they've had other things that are a little more appropriate for music service to have than planet of the apps, which was like a shark tank for ABC development. But they haven't had anything that anyone would consider to be a runaway success television. Apple really spotty track record on television contents other than just like being a storefront for people in tune. So also really quickly. I wanted to mention the new service because I got a lot of attention from folks like us who are reporters apparently apple was interested in creating again, I'm gonna use not flex neck. Netflix for news was asking publishers for fifty percent cut of subscriptions. So people were pretty upset about this. But I'm assuming if they've already got this rumored event going on. This is going to happen to a certain extent, right? The news service, I presume, it's gonna happen. This company texture last year, which is essentially what the service is magazine publishers already involved in texture texture wasn't a big success in terms of like most people have never heard of it. But apple bought it. And they've used that as the building blocks to create this new service, which we presume we'll have to see the today at some point next up. Our own Laura hotel wrote about how a lot of Android apps appear to be violating Google's policies by transmitting more data than they should to advertisers. This data makes it easier to track people online, even when they wipe their in for information from these apps. Google said it reviewed this research and has taken action, but interestingly enough wouldn't provide any additional information. This is another example of tech companies really seeming in in my mind to stumble and not really doing what they should be doing related to privacy, and maybe helping advertisers more than they should user privacy. Right. Even when there is a purported protect privacy protection. It can be used to violate your privacy. Yeah. Last Google CEO soon. Darpa Chai's said the search giant is investing thirteen billion dollars in data centers and offices around the country. Why the company didn't talk up the effort for a full year beforehand is beyond me. Right. It should've labeled it perhaps Google HQ dollar sign. Absolutely. Okay. If you want to read more about these stories, check them out on CNN. I'm Ben FOX Rueben I'm Joanie thousand thanks for listening.
"darpa" Discussed on TechStuff
"So starting in one thousand nine hundred three the plan was that by nineteen ninety three. We're going to have a computer that can think and an experienced like a human can whiles IRS. So it was pretty obvious by the late eighties. That this was not going to happen. They were not. Going to hit that goal. And in retrospect, we would probably call this the result of hubris, the human brain is far more complicated. And technology is far more limited than we gave either credit for back in nineteen Ninety-three. Nevertheless, the defense advanced research projects agency or DARPA and the department of defense, which is the department that oversees DARPA poured about a billion dollars into funding various programs throughout the United States in an effort to achieve this goal. And while we did not get a computer that thinks like a person out of this whole process. Many influential computer scientists and research projects were able to advance our capabilities and understanding through their work which got funding from this project. So we didn't get what the project was aimed to produce. But we did benefit from it. Some. Of that work would become really important for the next big DARPA initiative that I'm going to cover and that is the grand challenge. The history of the grand challenge dates back to two thousand one at that time the United States Congress had its own challenge for the various branches of the US military, the US. Congress said we want you to develop the technology necessary to allow one third of all military ground combat vehicles to be uncrowned by two thousand fifteen in other words to have autonomous ground combat vehicles by twenty fifteen one third of all of them. The purpose obviously was to keep soldiers out of harm's way as much as possible that if you can have these ground combat vehicles operate autonomously than if one gets destroyed that's a huge amount of money gun down the drain. But no one dies at least, no one on your side dies achieving this. Goal would also be super difficult to do technology. Just wasn't where would need to be by itself. The defense contractors that DARPA would work with on these sort of solutions weren't making the progress necessary in order to meet that two thousand fifteen goal and DARPA recognized this early on they said. This is just not going to happen. So in the final report for the two thousand four grand challenge, which was the first of the three grand challenges around autonomous cars, the logic that the agency laid out to justify this challenge was this while there have been a number of significant technical breakthroughs leading to robust unmanned air vehicles. That US forces us today progress in unmanned autonomous ground vehicle technology has not occurred at a similar rate vehicle operations in a ground environment are a much more difficult challenge due to terrain man-made obstacles and weather. That's just scratching the surface. They actually were pretty, you know, generous in that regard. Because as it turns out, there are a lot of other factors that make this a really difficult problem. And I think one other thing. Quick tangent. That I think is important here is DARPA pointing out. Yes, we came up with autonomous systems for aircraft ages ago. We have lots of them we have unmanned drones that we can fly. But we haven't really done that with cars. I think that's also a good reminder that technology does not all progress at the same accelerated rate, we have Moore's law, which is kind of conditioned us to think about our technology advancing rapidly over the course of every two years, but that doesn't apply to every technology. It applies specifically these days to computational power than originally only dealt with the number of transistors, you could fit on a square inch of silicon wafer. So. This is good to remember because I think a lot of Futurists just kind of apply Moore's law to all technologies and just assume that everything is accelerated at that same or everything is moving at that. Same accelerated rate back to autonomous cars Jose, Negra n- who worked at DARPA at the time of the grand challenges went to the director of DARPA with an idea. And he said there are a lot of people out there who could potentially contribute to the advancement of technology. We're going to need for autonomous cars, but we normally wouldn't work with them because they're independent innovators. They work with smaller groups, they aren't part of defense contractor companies..
"darpa" Discussed on This Week In Google
"Alphabet owns shaft, here's the DARPA grand challenge. Eight tasks and walking all of this done by this robot. I guess though, the research, I mean, I hope it's not, you know, dead. I mean, I hope that it. Well, maybe I do I don't know. See this is I'm to say, I'm gonna say this is Ted. Yes. It is. Because every time you here's what he's that's creepy. It's a machine is a machine, and you there is a reason you want Peter robots because as in this environment, they're designed for humans designed for bipedal navigation. And so if a robots coming into rescue people they need to be able to operate in an environment designed for people like go upstairs and open tours and all of that stuff and fire weapon. Hey, knock it off disarm disarm weapon. The good news. Hey, here's I'll put a happy gloss on that one would hope that if it's a robot firing a weapon it's fire weapon at another robot. Okay can draw better circles than I can't punch to home the door. It's a terrible circle. It's not like it can turn wrenches. This is the DARPA grand challenge. So they designed these challenges for robots, and this is the shaft robot here it's getting a hose so that signed for a human, but it's able to. And connected. Can it make a nice mutton lettuce and tomato sandwich inevitably? If you could do the one you can do the other. So she was a robot. There was a story about a robot a company that got a lot of investment to make to have robots make pizza cut millions of dollars. I forgot that. Put the pizza was terrible. Doesn't matter robot made it. You know, what a human can make terrible pizza to string not not only the the realm of the robot..
"darpa" Discussed on TechStuff
"To help build out the system, and they would subcontract with other companies to build all these simulators. And they weren't just aircraft simulators, they built tank, simulators and other stuff too. And they networked them all together the advantages of the simulators over real world training were numerous real world combat training is obviously very dangerous for some scenarios suggest. Let's say you want to operate your aircraft. But you also. So want to jam the sensors on that aircraft only is that very dangerous because you're taking away some of the information that the pilots are relying upon it's also potentially problematic because depending on where you're flying. These these training missions using that jamming technology can affect other stuff like commercial flights or maybe the the airspace of allies or maybe people who aren't your allies. It could be really really touchy. But if you simulate it, you can do pretty much scenario that the computer is capable of running. So also because the systems were networked in theory. You could have people in different parts of the world all training together. You didn't have to get them all in the same place at the same time, though, you would have to figure out something about lagging latency for these systems sim net in a way was a precursor to online games that millions of gamers play these days like MMORPG's, they can kind of trace. What necessarily trace their history back, but some net was definitely a precursor to that kind of stuff. There are many more technologies. The DARPA helped fund in the nineteen seventies were XM or lasers. These were used in communications platforms between aircraft and submerged submarines they needed to develop special lasers in the shortwave range of lasers the longer. Wavelengths? Didn't have good penetration in the water. So you couldn't really use them to communicate with a submarine. But there was this need to communicate with submarines because at that point really the only way as submarine communicate with the surface is if the submarine itself surfaced, and obviously that puts the submarine and vulnerable position being able to use these shortwave lasers and have them penetrate. The water reached the submarine and have the submarine be able to respond opened up communication in ways that weren't possible before DARPA also contributed some of the components for the Hubble space telescope. Nope. The agency would design and help build two and Tanna booms for the satellite telescope in the late nineteen seventies and early nineteen eighties. Darby pioneered the development of a special graphite and aluminum material though, it allow the booms to not just conduct radio frequencies, but also double as structural supports. So these structural supports. It made made the overall telescope lighter the material was lighter. It removes some of the need for some extra infrastructure. And again, if you make your payload lighter to send off into space you bring the price down. So wait is money. So it was a cost saving feature. It took the better part of a decade for DARPA to recover in the wake of the Vietnam war. The agency changed a lot in the nineteen seventies. And we're going to leave off for now. We're going to say goodbye DARPA for the time being but I will come back to revisit the agency in the projects at funded over. Over the following decades and future episodes. So we'll talk about things like Star Wars and Thomas cars and spying on world of warcraft players and more because DARPA played a role in all of that kind of stuff. It's a fascinating story, and again because of the work that DARPA has helped fund we have access to some pretty incredible technologies that you know, rolled out a few years later based on that early work. So it's definitely benefited us in many many ways they agency has also created stuff that's been at best. Controversial. And at worst incredibly incredibly harmful like Agent, Orange is the one point too easily as being a truly terrible thing. So you take the good you take the bad. You take them both in there. You have DARPA. I guess we will revisit this in the future. But in the meantime, if you. Guys, have any suggestions for topics. You would like me to cover on tech stuff. Some sort of technology accompany person in tech, whatever.
"darpa" Discussed on TechStuff
"Darpa would move on to pursue a new project called assault breaker, which had the goal of bringing together many different disparate technologies in an effort to make them work together a system of systems, this idea of we have all these pieces out there, and they're all effective, but it would be better if we could actually make a cohesive approach to this. So the goal was to create a means in which military commanders would have an enormous amount. Of information at their disposal and the capability of launching an attack on target. Even if that target were well behind enemy lines. This would require bringing together all of these different technologies that DARPA had played a part in making a reality Soviet Union spies learned about this program assault breaker, and they reported back to their superiors in Moscow and eventually military personnel in the Soviet Union wrote up a report and published it in a journal called military thought, it's actually a classified journal only a few high-ranking officials really had access to it. Well, high-ranking Soviet officials and a few US spies because as we know everyone is spying on everyone else all the time. Always. So when US officials learned that the Soviet government was worried that the US was building up a program that would give America this incredible advantage in both gathering intelligence and acting upon it spirit stirred to run high in the US because if you're in. Me is scared. That's good news for you. I guess one cool project that started independently from DARPA was one that would eventually be called sim net. So there was an air force pilot named Jack Thorpe who was thinking about the possibility of networked flight, simulators for the purposes of training pilots, you know, combat training without actually having to go up in a real jet, and he had experienced this on a small scale. This was not something he just came up with on his own. He had already had sort of this experience in a system that was at the flying training division of Williams air force base. And that system would allow to pilots to simulate flying emission together, the simulator was complete with a hydraulic motion systems. So it move you as you're piloting the simulated aircraft. But again, it was just a pair of these simulators that worked together Thorpe wondered if perhaps it will be possible to build out a much larger system with multiple. Simulators all connected to each other to allow for more complex training THORP wrote up a paper, titled future views aircrew training, nineteen eighty through two thousand this was in nineteen seventy eight when he wrote this and he pitched his ideas to top brass, but they didn't take Jerry seriously to be fair to them the tack that Thorpe was proposing was incredibly sophisticated for the time and also not many people really knew that much about the progress that Arpanet had been making a networking different computer systems together. So no one was really sure how feasible this was Thorpe would go on doing his career. And then he would go to the naval war college to further his education. And after getting that he was assigned sort of on loan by the air force to DARPA while he was at DARPA his boss asked them. Hey gunny. Interesting ideas, you know, beyond what you're working on. So Thorpe shared his vision of these network. Leaders and his boss loved this idea and told Thorpe that you should tell this to Larry Lynn who was then the director of DARPA Larry Len like the a lot too. So yes, Thorpe how much money do you think it would cost to do this project and Thorpe said seventeen million dollars and Lind said okeydokey? So the program began and it became known as simulator networking or sim net. Darpa would contract with delta graphics, inC, percep- Tron ICs Inc and BBN Inc..
"darpa" Discussed on TechStuff
"Hey there and welcome to tech stuff. I'm your host Jonathan Strickland. I'm executive producer love all things tech. And this is our fourth episode about DARPA. And after this episode, I will switch to some other topics for a while. But Dr bas history is incredibly complicated, and it's intertwined with some of the most important technologies we interact with today. So we will revisit this topic in the future. We'll come back and continue the story of DARPA, but I did not want to turn tech stuff into DARPA stuff. So after this one I figure we'll move onto something else. And maybe in a few weeks. We'll pick up where we left off today in our last episode, we covered a lot more of the technology that was developed as part of the efforts in the Vietnam war, and I guess now it's a good time to remind everyone that DARPA which back in the sixties was known by its original name Arba was not an are in defense itself. Not truly. It was more of an agency that would award contracts to other organizations such as think tanks, universities defense, contractors and stuff like that Arpaio slash DARPA would fund the work, and they would also set the expectations the guidelines. You know, why was that they were hoping to get out of it? But the actual science and development was going on throughout the United States and all these different facilities. And these projects were frequently top top top secret. Meaning the people who worked on them would keep it quiet even from their co workers. So only people at the top of DARPA really tended to know all about the bits and pieces and sometimes even the director wasn't fully aware of everything that was going on. That's how classified some of these projects were in nineteen sixty-nine while several Arba research projects were all tied up in the Vietnam war, a group of computer networking specialists would initiate the original Arpanet connections. Arpanet was the RND. Project to create a means for different computers to send data back and forth between each other. Even if those computers relied upon different computer languages, and even if they were separated by many, many miles from one another part of this required, the design and production of a brand new technology, a router Arp behead contract, the company BBN technologies to build the first routers back in nineteen sixty eight took a year, but on October twenty ninth nineteen sixty-nine computers at the Stanford research institute at the university of California and Santa Barbara and at the university of Utah would connect through these routers. The first message sent across this three node network was low L O. This was actually Christopher Klein's attempt to log in L O G I N to the SRI computer remotely, but the Sarai. Computer crashed in mid message. And so low is all we got also held typical is it the server goes down. Just when you have something important to send to it. It dates all the way back to the beginning of the Arpanet, but more seriously this connection showed that remote. Computers would be able to send data back and forth using network communication standards. And also relying upon technologies like packet switching that involves dividing data such as the data that represents a file into smaller packets and each packet has information about where the data's from where it's going and how it fits into the overall collection of information. So that you can when I say you so that a computer, can reconstruct the file these ideas, we get fleshed out over the next several years and important moment would happen in nineteen seventy four when Vint CERF and Bob Kahn would publish a protocol for packet network interconnection which laid out the principles behind. PCP, but I've done full episodes about Arpanet. So for this episode. We'll just remind you that that was something that was happening at this time, and we'll also point out some of the big moments as they tie back into our. So the main purpose of Arpanet, by the way, that was just to create those Bethel Ogies for computer networks, but one of the applications perhaps one of the benefits that are Bose really interested in was the idea that by creating distributed networks of computers, the US could maintain some communications and command structures in the event of nuclear strike. So it's kind of scary..
"darpa" Discussed on TechStuff
"Weather batteries would drain too quickly since there's would go dead earlier than expected. It was also really hard to get an accurate placement of sensors the sensors were being deployed from aircraft and dropped directly onto the jungle floor in some cases without a parachute. They acted almost like a spear and went straight down and would imbed into the ground. So it was kind of hard to get them placed. Just right. Plus it was very dangerous. There were flight crews that were constantly under fire while trying to deploy the sensors so it was a very tough thing to do. And it never quite got out to the level that the Jason group had really envisioned, and it didn't really pan out for Vietnam. But it did prove to be a powerful proof of concept for unmanned sensors and system of systems in which a large amount of data could be fed into an analysis system for real time combat conditions in decisions and essentially a lot of military officials after the fact said yet didn't. In Vietnam because it never been done before it didn't it wasn't fully baked, but it was a proof of concept that would become invaluable in future. Conflicts back at home are pa- provided funding to the Stanford research institute in in the efforts to develop a robot with the ability to navigate its way through a set of rooms which was a truly revolutionary chievements back in the mid nineteen sixties Arpaio would agree to the proposal that Stanford gave to them and so work began on what would eventually be known as shakey the robot. It's called shaky because the robot would shake as it moved this project took several years the actual robot wasn't ready for a demonstration until the early nineteen seventies. But it began in the mid nineteen sixties Arp is research and work during the Vietnam conflict stuff that would impact the Vietnam conflict continued throughout the entire history of our involvement in the Vietnam war, and it would continue to harm the reputation of the agency as. Well, in many ways by the time, the United States would withdraw from the Vietnam war Arpaio would end up being separated from the Pentagon and set up a new offices and also have a much lower budget than it had before. In our next episode. I will talk a little bit more about some of the final projects that are did in connection to the Vietnam war. Also, talk about some of the crazy, psychological projects that are got involved with as well as some of the other cool technological projects that the agency got involved with now because this history is so dense, and because it involves so many different topics and technologies of many of which we are enjoying the benefits of today. I am probably going to break this up. So that our next episode will be the last one in this DARPA ark. And then I'll take a break from DARPA, and we'll talk about some other technologies, and then perhaps a few more weeks from now I'll come back, and we'll continue the story of DARPA because I don't want tech stuff to become DARPA stuff. But I do think that the full story of DARPA is fascinating. And we will have to come back. To it. So next episode. We'll probably wrap up the nineteen sixties since I've done four episodes. And I haven't been able to get through a decade yet. And then we'll see where we are after that. And continue it further into the future. If you guys have suggestions for topics I should tackle and future. Episodes of tech stuff. It doesn't have to be a multi episode arc. It could be.
"darpa" Discussed on TechStuff
"Welcome to tech stuff. I'm your host Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer. And I love all things tech. And today we're going to start a week long journey to talk about a very important agency that relates to technology in many episodes of tech stuff. I have referenced DARPA also known as the defense advanced research projects agency, it is the research arm of the United States Department of defense and DARPA projects have led to some pretty incredible technologies like the internet and on Thomas cars. Spoiler alert for this week. But what about the agency itself what is its history? So in the following episodes hope to give you guys an insight into one of the most secretive organizations in the United States this agency hides in plain sight, and it essentially. Advertises itself with some of its larger profile projects like the various grand challenges that led to things like autonomous cars, and and and more advanced humanoid robots. So I'll be talking more about some of those in my upcoming suite of episodes about Thomas cars when I get into that. I'll I'll cover it a little bit in these episodes Bogo into more detail when we get into the Thomas car, sweet, ultimately, the purpose of DARPA is to make the United States technologically superior to other countries as to maintain technological superiority, and that includes making high-tech, weaponry and military systems. It is part of the defense department. So while many of the stories about DARPA have focused on the golly, gee, whiz that texture as amazing side of things we're gonna look at the whole picture, which sometimes gets pretty darn grim. But I think it's important to consider both the good and the bad. We shouldn't just you know, focus. On one at the expense of the other. So to understand the climate that would create DARPA we really need to think back to World War Two and the development of the atomic bomb the Manhattan project took advantage of some of the most talented physicists and engineers in America. And during the course of the development of the atomic bomb, which was based off the process of nuclear vision. Splitting the atom the team also explored the possibility of a fusion bomb aka hydrogen bomb now during World War Two the Manhattan project focused mainly on vision bombs because a lot more work was going to be needed to make a fusion bomb possible. There was work being done on that. But it was trailing way behind. It was considered to be far more complicated and difficult to do and therefore it was given lower priority because of the necessity to build a bomb in a wartime environment. So some members of the team ended. Being opposed to working on a fusion bomb. Particularly once the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were deployed because they were worried. Well, they said the atomic bombs were already bad enough. The fusion bomb would be much much more destructive. There was even a fear that such a device might ignite the atmosphere sentenced setting the atmosphere itself on fire, which would obviously kill everyone all over the world after a single detonation the idea that you could have a world ending event by detonating one of these bombs, but even without that doomsday scenario, the thought was that such a bomb would cause such widespread. Devastation that it would by its nature wipe out civilian populations that there'd be no dancing around it that you could argue well, these other bombs we've created we meant for military installations and tragically that also meant that civilian populations were affected. Because of their proximity to those military installations with a fusion bomb. The effect would be so large that you couldn't really use that as a justification. It was going to affect millions of people. So it raised serious ethical concerns. Among many who were working on the Manhattan project after World War Two. And after the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki there was still ongoing debate about whether or not any work should be done on creating a hydrogen bomb, then in nineteen forty nine the Soviet Union would conduct its first test of an atomic bomb detonation, and that changed things in the US. The general advisory committee of the US atomic energy commission unanimously recommended that the United States not pursue the development of a hydrogen bomb. This was all the the conscientious objectors who said such a technology is too terrible to even develop let alone build and deploy that group would include people like..
"darpa" Discussed on Stuff They Don't Want You To Know Audio
"I think it's really cool aesthetic sky for sure it had a lot of big blimps though. Think to it did. Yeah. You said wanted with Angelina Jolie, this is the she was in sky, captain too. Oh, cool. I patch. If I recall right yet. So spinning the bullet or whatever you forget what they called it. Yeah. I don't remember what they called the the comic book adaptation holds up a little bit better. I think okay, right self guided bullets in the film at wanted the assassins are able to use the powers of their mind to change the direction the trajectory of a bullet after its fired. Pretty neat. Yeah. Weirdly specific superpower school DARPA working on it is working on making that in real life building ammunition with a guidance system to keep it on target right now, the specifics about how that works are classified and probably will be classified of been might be a situation where we don't learn that this technology exists until we hear reports of it being used in war in a conflict. He said like, we didn't really know the people had stealth helicopters until one crashed dude there is a thing. There's a website called future ISM dot com. And they're purporting to have a video. Of what they're calling exacto the extreme accuracy tasked ordinance. It's a system that they're demonstrating where it showing a guided bullet. Whoa. And it's pretty crazy. So I don't know if I believe this. Yeah. So it showing a red line, which is the trajectory of where the bullet as it's being fired and sent down towards this target. He shows you where it would be. And then it shows the moving target way in the distance. And it shows the bullet change directions and follow the target and actually hit the target. It's crazy. That's insane. I don't I mean, it's from DARPA TV from their their actual YouTube channel. So they'll show it in action. But they won't tell you how the nuts and bolts of how it works. Exactly. How is this technology much different from like guided missiles, for example, or like, you know, heat heat seekers, or whatever, it's just more micro technology. Oh, you're talking about the bullet the bull. Yeah. I mean, that's essentially what it is. There are some bullets you can get that are considered rocket bullets essentially than actually shoot out exhaust as they're firing being fired through the air. So it's kind of like this. It's just somehow there is a either a small CPU or something that's guiding it why it's actually inside the piece of metal that you're firing a weapon working with some other system. That's tracking. Whatever the target is. It's just it seems so futuristic and these are just a few. Few of the fascinating frightening, sometimes inspiring things that DARPA is working on do wanna be clear that a lot of DARPA does is just facilitate independent. Researchers gives you money gives you money gives you support and it gives you direction. I yes. But it is one of those things where you can see all of these varying compartmentalized programs where perhaps purposefully DARPA makes it unknown to the left arm with the right arm is doing and all of that situation because if you add up some of these programs. You're not only getting super soldiers. You're not only getting Dr drone jogs your own. But it's genuinely creeps me out. Just thinking that a single force or a country or power will have access to these things at some point in the future. But there's another argument to be made here which is dangerous. It's kinda sticky. The argument is if we don't do it says insert country here, then someone else will too good of an argument, we either build the bullets or we get shot by them. Yeah. And it's I mean, it's kind of a zero sum acquainting way of thinking. But it is it does have some validity to it. And the truth is that DARPA is very P Diddy about this won't stop. You know what I mean? It's a it's this feedback loop of research, success and investment and. It is an important thing. We can't stress enough there. Tremendous, medical innovations that occur because of this sort of research, but it goes hand in hand with these other goals nation state would have I mean to sum it up when we talk about what DARPA is working on. We don't know what we don't know. But we can guess as you said that we can put pieces together you can write to DARPA directly and ask them. They have a great PR department..
"darpa" Discussed on Stuff They Don't Want You To Know Audio
"Monitoring couldn't just be flipped using only technology and electrons. It would have to be like hard surgically hardwired in in a way that it actually touched all these system. Yeah. Could affect the levels of these brain chemicals. Right. It would have two different doodad. Probably. Well, here's the thing is there's another DARPA project that has to do specifically with the mind being able to control. Roll various pieces of hardware and software, basically using the mind as your keyboard and your mouse, which there are already some rudimentary versions of this early stage. You know, early levels of being able to do this where you're strapped into a big piece of machinery that you know, has a bunch of wires that go from sensors on your on your head your skull into big supercomputer. And then it's crunching all the numbers as as it's reading essentially, your brain waves in actively within sectors of your brain. Well, what DARPA wants to do is have essentially a helmet a system that goes inside a helmet for every soldier and or pilot enter just who whoever else is out on the field where they could control systems, not only possibly hardware systems. But also just seeing software. Sure. And having visuals of what they're what they're looking at essentially if you if you ever hit option when you're playing an first per. Shooter. And you go the map and look at the overlay. They really wanna be able to do that for every soldier, and why wouldn't you? And then also imagine. This is this is getting muddied because you'll see a lot of these programs at some point do converge merge. So imagine a soldier that uses this bring computer interface to orchestrate the movements of drones. So. Yeah, a single soldier with their own retinue of UAB's different sizes and stuff. Yeah. And you just you sick, Fido, or the raptor, whatever on the target or you send it out to get a look around the corner for you. I mean, obviously, that's a great idea. If you're in charge, and you're the one with all the guns and the drones in the brain interfaces. And now, of course, the next question is when does that go to the public? Yeah. Our children in the future going to grow up with drones that are their pet drone similar to the way kids. Grow up with cats and dogs today. It's possible. But the one thing that it is currently being used for a lot of this technology is to control something like a prosthetic limb. If you've got a full arm, amputation or injury, where you've lost your arm you, and you've got a prosthetic on their three using some of these systems where can actually sense parts of your muscles. Like where there's a neuro chemical signal being sent for your brain down to your shoulder. Something you can you can both see those at the brain level when it's being sent. And then when it reaches your shoulder when you connect to those two signals up, you can actually teach your arm and your brain to control an entire limb that you could not be able to do without just using brain. It's pretty incredible this, it's crazy cool. But then you extrapolate that to something like an ex skeleton or go really crazy go to like the Pacific rim kind of thing where it's a giant Yeager like, yeah. Exactly unmet for real. And I know that's. It's kind of silly even imagine that. But that's just one of the first steps to getting the word. You're looking for is awesome. I loved Pacific rim. I no regrets. I know it's big dumb movie and both of them. I hope I hope they make a third one. I like full on to. Well, it's not as nita's voltron because the they can't they don't have a giant laser sword in their all in like over they wolves or something. Like, I forget what they were there. Different memories Panthers. Right there Panthers. Thanks. I think right in and let us know while we're on the subject of drones. Let's examine an assumption. That a lot of people have made myself included, at least whenever the subject comes up and say idea, the drones are all aerial airborne. They're not. We'll be back after a word from our sponsor..
"darpa" Discussed on Stuff They Don't Want You To Know Audio
"It was across the country and around this time in nineteen seventy one. That's when Arp got changed to DARPA. So you might hear some people call the early internet DARPA net. But again, they have these name changes back and forth. The idea of adding defense to any government property or institution already strikes people's a little bit Orwellian. Yeah. So they went back and forth change the name changed it back and as of nineteen ninety six going forward. It's still DARPA. They get tons and tons of credit from people who were impressed by the bold chievements of this institution. But they get no small amount of criticism. From opponents and journalists who say, hey, this is weird. This top secret technology, perhaps there are some things men was not meant to know. Maybe there are, but they have other notable programs as you said will they made the internet. That's kind of big. I mean, that's the reason we have jobs. Yeah. Exactly. We talked about the in another episode, the corona satellite system that they set up where it actually took physical pictures. Actual film pictures of the earth, and then would send the canisters down was really really cool program and the Showtime rotisserie chicken machine, I receive not know that. Yeah. That that that it I started. They're all started at DARPA just set it and forget it. They did satellites for essentially what became GPS. Yeah. Nice. Well, it's nice that we finally have access to it. We can use it for our menial little, you know, Aaron running. We'll be without would I do without it. I don't know. I would go nowhere. If stay. Yeah. I have a horrible direction. So thank you. Dr by allowing me to live a productive life. And all we had to do is give up any vestige of privacy. Yeah. Exactly. I have it. And we could go through things we talked about the vela's incident. Remember this detecting whether or not a nuclear explosion has occurred somewhere on earth, they figured that out. And right after that, they figured out the computer mouse, the very first computer mouse. Oh, that's right for more stuff of genius days. Exactly. Yeah. Stuff of genius is a short animated program that you find on YouTube on stuff genius dot com. So on and you can search for Douglas Engelbert adds his name while of that name. It's kinda like Ingle, Bert Humperdinck or something. Oh, yeah. Or Benedict Cumberbatch? These are just fun names to say DARPA also did a lot of innovative work with stealth aircraft tons, and they launched the first as you said met, dedicated satellite. Or weather satellite in this case, t roast one awesome. And that was way back in the day to eighteen sixty. Yeah. Yeah. April first nineteen sixty two. So today's episode is not so much about that stuff in the past which you can find very easily today's episode about the question that should be on everyone's mind when we are dealing with the US is genuine mad science department. It's not what have they done. It's what are they doing now? Yeah. What's coming up? The answers might surprise you. And they should definitely frighten. You here's where it gets crease. Again, crazy already been we're going to be here for a while. I'm reading so the biggest the biggest thing which I think is easily predictable right? Is the push for a I artificial intelligence what our friend Damian Williams likes to call machine. Gene consciousness. Yeah. It's intense stuff here. And we've got to read some portions here of a public relations released from DARPA, and they're talking about in the nineteen sixties they shape too the first wave of AI technologies, and that's really just them talking about systems running nearly defined tasks right? We kind of understand that. That's what computers do. But it says that these systems were fragile and limited than in the nineteen nineties. They should in the second wave of machine learning that actually started looking at statistical pattern recognizers from large amounts of data. So taking a ton of data and going, okay? I understand patterns here understand patterns here..
"darpa" Discussed on Real Time with Bill Maher
"Save it for ten, Jesus. Give me your pickup. Doing for the universe. All right. So let's get serious because we need a pallet cleanser totally pallets. Books are price me because you talk about the alliance between the military and science. And usually when liberals do that, it's anti military, but you're not? Yeah. I mean, I started anti military. I mean, I was a grew up in New York City which is liberal town generally anti war, and my earliest exposure to society was in the sixties. I wasn't a participant but observed it. We're about the same age and Vietnam war was a bad thing to turn bad and all war was bad. And so the idea that could ever be a just war was not even thought. Meanwhile, I had this cognitive dissonance, you'd walk around towns doesn't matter which town and their monuments to war heroes and their astride a horse, the burned burnishing, their weapons. And I said, why do these exist? And it would take years for me to recognize that Vietnam war was not like other wars. And in the second World War people knew that like bad. Bad forces operating in Europe and we have to rise up against him. And so back, then you wouldn't say, war is bad. You say, we need this war. Otherwise we lose civil, be no it and we need every weapon to fight it. Yes, in my parents were in the European theater when the bomb came along, they didn't go, oh, I don't know if we should use the bar. They said, I don't wanna go to Japan drop whatever you have, right, right. And so so I had to come out of this bubble. It's a bubble to recognize that there are occasions where you need and want to be defended. You needed want security. And then I recognize that my field, the field of astrophysics has been a handmaiden to to MIT the actions of the military, all around the world for centuries and millennia going back to just navigation. We don't make the bombs or the weapons, but we care about things that the military also cares about all division that DARPA division DARPA. Yeah, defensive research project minister is what it's for. That's what it's called. Supersecret and you know the there was scary. So they are horrible, horrible stuff. Oh, no, no, no, that's their job. Did the military Brima your horrible weapons. That's not the mission statement of DARPA DARPA. Yes, it is. That's exactly the mission saving, and that's what we do. Our women's. We already had that we know about are horrible, daisy cutters. And you know the internet Albor. Yes, yes. Well, house. The internet? Yes, I use. Okay. So what? Why are we talking about DARPA in this other way? Okay. Is in how transformed the world because it's a debate show. Let's talk about. All right. Trump suggested space force recently immediately thought of you. I didn't really thought of Star Trek, but no, no tore into it. Yes, of course. Yeah. Just because it came out of trade off, not because not really thought it through. Like the Jetsons when he said it sounded like George Jetson. I'll give you that. What I'm saying, today's air force questioning whether it should have ever been spawned off from the army and branch of the military to which it once belonged in the second World War it was the army air force, and we realized no two soldiers for the air force have to be differently trained. They gotta fly planes than soldiers on the ground, the engineers for the air or different from the engineers fix tanks. So this spawned off and now we accept it as a natural branch of a theater of operations that is necessary for the military. The air force currently has a US space command. They're already thinking got stuff. They put up the GPS satellites that was there that space. Okay. So now a space force. Give it up..
"darpa" Discussed on News Radio 1190 KEX
"News breaks depend on, us News Radio eleven ninety, k. x. And welcome back. To. Coast to coast back with Sharon Weinberger we're gonna take your calls as we? Talk, about DARPA in your work sure and what was the most fascinating aspect of DARPA that, you uncovered for yourself For myself there's an addict that always stays with, me that was told to me, by a guy who used to work at DARPA and this was a it was an. Anecdote about Nick Kristof who was this Greek American scientists who was not formally part of DARPA but whose ideas became excuse me part of a lot of. DARPA projects in one of his ideas was a particle beam that was part of a top secret program called seesaw and DARPA had worked on it for over ten years and nobody thought it was going to work and, so one year DARPA program manager decided to hold a meeting of a bunch of scientists called the Jason's who would advise. Durpan top secret issues and Nick Christoph list that father of this particle. Beam. Idea was there and he was trying to demonstrate why this particle beam was It's never going, to work on that it would take the entire American electric grid to power and the. DARPA I was thinking okay I'm gonna explain this to them and they're finally going to agree to project was going to be killed but instead I'm Nick. Christoph list the scientists talked about how they could put nuclear nuclear weapons under the Great Lakes and drain the Great Lakes she power this particle beam weapon apparently all these scientists the meeting role nodding their heads saying yeah Nick that's that's genius might work let's go do it right Let's bomb nuclear, bomb, the, Great, Lakes and use that. To power the particle beam And that to, me captured something about DARPA this idea that you. Know, no, matter how ridiculously fantastical you. Know that had some scientific integrity behind it well we we might just try it And I gotta tell ya, as far as I'm concerned having been raised in. Detroit, around, some of those Great Lakes That's one of the, extra wonders of this planet and they wanted to ruin that Well you're, that's part of the Cold War this particle beam was gonna shoot, down Soviet ICBM and that was due to. Cold War that when, your nation distress what it's east of existential existence, is threatened you consider, any possibility. Including setting off. Nuclear, weapons. Under the Great Lakes Sharon DARPA in area fifty one any crossover there oh absolutely so of course area fifty one. Was used for quite a bit of top secret testing of classified weapons classified aircraft, so the first stealth, prototype aircraft, which was a DARPA project was tested at area fifty one other black you know classified aircraft programs that. DARPA sponsored over the, years involving stealth and other areas were tested a area fifty one the, rumor is is that the current top secret next, generation bomber that the air force Is developing grew out. Of Jerome programs at DARPA developed which will probably tested area fifty one so as, sort of the classified, testing area, it's had a lot of crossover with DARPA let's go to some of the calls here for you now. They're lining up we, go to Eric truck driver beaten Indiana welcome to the program hey Eric That's my signal. From, him Mind-control, guy, Hello where good hey, yeah I was gonna ask guess if she had ever heard of the book called this is the title of the. Book is called the, patches if I tell you you have to be destroyed by me and what this book is all these units that supposedly don't exist for a place that doesn't exist dreamland, more commonly. Known as area fifty one they have all these really bizarre and obscure patches there and with all these different units and all these different projects and some you gotta figure how serious these guys are because one of, the patches on their now I'm sure you, probably know what this, means but on the patch it says and o. y. f. b. and I'm sure. You understand what that means and they have, other ones like, a lifetime the green. Door a lifetime of silence Some. Of these patches they are so bizarre and. These are. The, patches that. Are, he's, he's black projects are, and those are just the ones that were found out this has been years ago and these aren't like the new. Ones that nobody even knows about some skunkworks DARPA and all that and I didn't know if your guests have ever come across that book it's on Amazon I got several years ago Pat Tasker, about that. All right go ahead sure and I'm not sure if I know that specific book but but the card absolutely right that there's this fascinating history of people who look at the patches which are you know for different, military units also classified programs one of my, favorite and that's a, favorite among national security reporters is there's a famous patch of classified launch by the. National Reconnaissance office which launches spy satellites and, the patch was, for a specific mission That was classified but, we we, know it, was for spy satellite we just don't. Know which one or, what it was doing and it was an octopus enveloping the globe and he's absolutely right you can you people have tracked a lot of. Classified programs by looking at these mission patches Which are skull and bones octopuses enveloping, the globe, sometimes they give you hints about what. A program does sometimes they're obscure but we know that they're each linked to something and you can look, at them and trade. A lot of fascinating history do the Russians have the same credit agencies we have with DARPA So they don't quite have a DARPA I'm a few years ago Vladimir. Putin announced Russia would form its own DARPA but I don't think they've. Really done anything equivalent You know it's it's very hard it is very unique and perhaps something unique to. The US government to say you know what we're gonna give a few billion dollars, a year to government agency and let them kinda do within reason whatever they want and I don't think. That the previously the Soviet system and now the. Russian system I don't think they're willing to, let their, scientists or even their military scientists have that sort of, freedom now the, Europeans have tried on. The same thing they they every few years they talk about you know the EU or specific countries are. Gonna stab a DARPA but in Europe the problem. Is different they're not comfortable having the military fund research and development to the extent we do in. The United States so lots of other countries have talked about it nobody has really created. The equivalent of Dr Bates unique kind. Of reminds me of the. JAMES BOND movies were cute was heading up all, those areas that came up with these different Gizeh MOS and things for JAMES BOND to us Yeah a lot of that in DARPA has gone through periods in its history where it's operated. Like a bit more like a, q. agency, certainly in the Vietnam war period you know they, were experimenting, with things like pontoons for soldiers you know sort of shoes, that would allow soldiers, to walk on, water go down Vietnamese waterways or you know a single person light. Aircraft a soldier could use at one point they were, looking at sort of foldable bicycles for. Soldiers but that's sort of very rapid response gimmicks and gadgets for soldiers. Was a little bit unique to that period they little bit of it, at the height of Afghanistan. And Iraq war but not quite as much they tend to focus more on sort of, the the future? Projects now rather than on you know what what's it Gizmo or gadget. We can give a? Soldier today or tomorrow what would Sharon Weinberger her. Books is called the imagine years of war. Let's, go, to Barbara. In Los Angeles now hi Barbara go, ahead I signed a lot of this discussion Disheartening especially since. By, taxes, are going. To fund all these they sure are Things and and I'm just I'm just thoroughly. Disheartened by it and I know, people that have.
"darpa" Discussed on News Radio 920 AM
"But instead Nick Christoph list the scientist talked about how they could put nuclear. Nuclear weapons under the Great Lakes and drain the Great Lakes she power this particle beam weapon and apparently all these scientists meeting role nodding their heads saying yeah Nick that's genius All right let's, go, do, it right Let's bomb nuclear bomb the Great Lakes and. Use that. To power the particle beam And that to me captured something about DARPA idea. That, you, know matter how ridiculously fantastical. If that had some scientific integrity behind it well we we might just try it Well and I gotta tell ya is I I'm concerned having been raised in Detroit around some of those Great Lakes that's one of the extra wonders of this. Planet, and, they wanted to ruin that Well you that's part of the Cold War this, particle beam was going, to shoot. Down Soviet ICBM's. And, that. Was the core that when your nation distress existential existence is threatened you consider any possibility including setting off nuclear weapons. Under the Great Lakes Sharon DARPA in area fifty one any crossover there oh absolutely. So. Of course area fifty one was used for quite a bit of top secret testing of classified weapons classified aircraft. So. The first stealth prototype, aircraft which would a DARPA project was tested at area fifty one other black, classified aircraft programs that DARPA sponsored over the years involving stealth and other areas were tested area fifty one the. Rumor is is that the current top secret next, generation bomber that the air force Developing grew out of Jerome programs. At DARPA develop which will probably tested area fifty one so acid of the classified. Tom. Testing area it had a lot of crossover with DARPA let's go to some of the calls here for you. Now. They're lining up we, go to Eric truck driving an Indiana welcome to the program hey Eric That's my guess signal. From, him Mind-control, guy, Hello where denied good, hey yeah I was gonna ask guess if she had ever heard of the book called this is the.
"darpa" Discussed on StarTalk Radio
"Siri traces back to a DARPA project got spun out of SRI as a company called Siri that got acquired by apple and became a product, so so all of those technologies. But you know, this is the magic right as public dollars sparked all of those technologies that you know changed how we live and work. She's taking credit for the internet smartphones, and Siri is that is that is she all that almost all of that. The biggest one in what's meant at DARPA reputation was network computers. The Arpanet, which was fully and wholly a DARPA innovation which went directly into the internet, let thank God. They changed the name from Arpanet because that's the internet for really old people. AARP. She's absolutely right that Siri also came directly out of DARPA program at turned out the military wasn't interested, so they spun it off apple badeah. It's in your iphone. What are the actual origins of Arpanet within DARPA? Because I read that at something to do with linking together the few survivors after nuclear holocaust. So is that is that true? It's mostly untrue. Mostly. This Armageddon, which is. Myth was that had nothing to do with nuclear weapons. It was just scientists that wanna computers to talk to each other. And that's a little bit of a myth too. So what it was was the Pentagon was worried about command and control of nuclear weapons. So they asked Arba, can you look at this issue, command and control of nuclear weapons DARPA hired a scientist didn't care about nuclear weapons. He wanted computers to talk to each other. So it was both coming together. Coming up. Next, we're going to explore how DARPA stepped into my world my world of space, and we're gonna see how they had a project to try to protect America's national security in space when star talk returns..
"darpa" Discussed on StarTalk Radio
"It was created this real political panic in the country that we were losing space. Race. The Soviet Union would have intercontinental ballistic missiles that would reach the United States. We said it was fun. This agency with what's the mission statement to do whatever the secretary of defense directs it to do. It was very vague except it was supposed to take on space programs. It was before NASA. It was the nation's for space agency, and that's not as good MRs statement at all. Hey, whatever the. Do we should do? So it's also some have considered DARPA the place where mad scientists go or given free rein. So what are some of the craziest maddest things to come out of their one of the original mad scientists DARPA was a scientist, a Greek scientists, Nick Christoph. Let's who had these fantastic immigrant was exactly and he was genius and scientists loved him. DARPA loved him. So one of his first ideas was a force field. We were worried about Soviet missiles attack the United States. So he said, what? If you launched a bunch of of nuclear weapons in the upper atmosphere that would release killer electrons and fry anything coming through it, it would be planetary force field. That was one idea. Oh, that's ready. That this is. Create a forest could go wrong. Yes. Another fascinating idea of creating a particle beam, weapons, same thing to take down Soviet missiles. You would just need to drain the Great Lakes to power it all at once by them. Yeah, you would put nuclear weapons under the Great Lakes to drain them to power out of the box ideas. They were very out of the box. You know, I'm starting to believe that DARPA might stand for drugs are really pretty awesome. And another way my list here a project Pandora, what does that was a top. We should. We should be cautious of anything called project Pandora. They chose that name appropriately. So in the nineteen sixties, the CIA discovered that the US embassy in Moscow was being radiated. They were sitting low level pulsed, microwaves, and this was a time when there was radiant, who the Soviets the Russians radiating us the American embassy in Moscow, yes, with microwaves, and this was a time. A lot of literature was coming out that maybe pulsed, microwaves could alter human behavior, affect the mind. So the own my God, the Soviets are trying to control our diplomats minds and so better. We didn't know better when really they would just slow cooking. Yeah. For the DARPA to test. This could microwaves the a mind control weapon, right? So those do quite pan. As as people had brats, we lack psychic, super weapons. Two. But other programs have panned out famously and responsible for some of our most sophisticated military innovations. So I asked the DARPA ahead about the intersection of technology and the military and what role play. So let's check it out. They're two sides of DARPA because again, our job is for national security. So one facet of it is these core underlying technologies like networking that you have to have if you're going to build sophisticated military capability, and the other is is military systems that we demonstrate like this thing called stealth aircraft, which also started as DARPA project and the whole idea of precision strike where instead of using massive weapons that wipe out everything, you develop the very sophisticated ability to find a very specific target communicate back and deliver a missile to precisely that location rendering weapons completely absurd in the face of that. Well, everything up to and including nuclear weapons about greater mass and greater destructive power. Precision said, we wanna hit exactly what we wanna hit and we can be really, it was driven out of the idea that this again back to the Soviets, the Soviets we knew had more forces. And they had tactical nuclear weapons. And we said there has to be different way to fight that kind of fight. So stuff and precision, weaponry. Somebody has to think that up and decide that that's the thing to do so. So what prompted darker to go there? Ironically, at grew out of our most failed war effort, which was Vietnam. I'm DARPA had been very heavily involved in Vietnam and developing things like a quiet aircraft Vietnam counterinsurgency on precision weapons for bombing targets..
"darpa" Discussed on StarTalk Radio
"We'd be course Chuck nice a nail. Abiding viewing always always. Make America smart again? Sure. His my, let's make America smart against shirt. It's. Quite frankly, is very coolest shirt, and we got with us tonight. Sharon Weinberger. Hello. Author. Fat people write and read fat books there right them. I I hope hope they they read. read. So the imagine years of war, the untold story of DARPA the Pentagon agency that changed the world. So DARPA Stanford, what? What? What is darker stands for the defense advanced research projects agency. And so you're journalist, you follow this industry for a long time, been writing about Pentagon funded science and technology for about the past seventeen years. This book is the practice about five years of interviews research and writing. You must do a well because you're still alive. I just saying just saying she was undercover until this moment. So tonight refuting my interview with the former head of DARPA a rottie probe car, and we met during her tenure as chief of DARPA in Washington DC. So let's check it out. Growing up to me, Docker was always this mysterious, you know, what are they doing there? I don't know, but it's really cool when they will find out maybe. That the mission statement that I just can't. Well, as long as it moves the needle as long as it really changes the world and especially national security than, yeah, that's that's what we do. DARPA is an agency that is very, very small were two hundred government employees, right? And and all of us here in this office building in Arlington, Virginia. Right above our heads. We don't have labs. We don't have any fixed infrastructure. We, we are critically dependent all on all the places and people that do your budget. It's about three billion about thirty three billion a year. He just give away all that money. Now. By the way, give money just don't make sense together, and it's just to be clear. What we do is we bring in program managers really smart people in their fields. They come in for typically about three to five years of duty tour of duty. They are here for short time. What they come in to do is to craft a program it might be, can I make ship that can sail without any sailors on board? It might be something about a next generation of artificial intelligence that might be about biological technologies, whatever, whatever area they wanna know what all what are all the really creative are the crazy sort of mind-bending ideas and, and you know, they listened to all of that. They go out and Bill talk to the user community and the DOD, for example, and especially, but between thinking about where the big problems are and we're the science and technology could take you it. That listening is a key part of how they come up with that vision. So so we are very interested in people's big new. A wormhole. Okay. I wanna tell security that one. I wanna transporter. Don't we all flying car. So when are we going to get these things? There was a DARPA project called the hundred year starship that looked at wormhole travel, so really hundred years, maybe that's up domestic. That's certainly not a waste of money. I like the way you put it a hundred years. So none of us will be here to bitch about. So, okay, you also had a robotic soldiers and in there and like force fields and mind, control crazy stuff could be right, they could, and the ideas come back again every few decades. The idea of a force field that can can protect the planet. The idea of mind control all these reputation? Yes. Spooky mysterious reputation that DARPA has has sustained over all these decades spooky. It a lot of its work has been secret has been classified. It's also at times that of touted itself touted by others as a science fiction agency, some of which is overblown, but some of which is true. So your men in black basically. Okay. So what are the origins of darker DARPA dates back to nineteen fifty eight and basically in the fall of nineteen fifty seven. The Sobia -portant Nassau got funded that was the geophysical year. A lot of science tech stuff was coming together. It was coming together in a lot of it was prompted by the October nineteen. Fifty, seven launch of Sputnik. This is the Soviet Union's launch. The first artificial satellite, and it's hard to imagine now, but it was sort of nine eleven moment..