3 Episode results for "Creepshow swamp"
Dee Wallace and Blaire Bercy
"Hello and welcome. I'm Adrienne Barbosa star of the fog, Creepshow swamp thing, the convent just a name of you. And this is she kills a shudder original cod cast where we sit down and discuss all of the things we love about the John ra- that has given women some of the most iconic roles in film, history. I've had a fair amount of experience with psychics and the spirit world, a psychic told me I'd be dating Burt Reynolds two weeks before we met and fell briefly in love. And by grandmother was psychic she read Turkish coffee grounds and she knew things before they happen. And I'm sure she was responsible for me. Getting my first job on Broadway. Even though it was after she passed from caretakers to demented, babysitters, too protective mothers to the vessels, for evil a woman's work is never done, common themes of guilt, and sorrow or. Processed onscreen through the trope of female ghosts, but never with males spirits. We called up my friend d Wallace star of cujo the Frighteners and the howling and you don't know this, but I do a couple of roles that she took right out from under me to speak with us about her work within the afterlife. How there are no such things as evil spirits, and her current career in healing. She talked to us from her home, in California, amidst the backdrop of a very real horror, the Wolsey fire, which had just started at the time of this recording we paired her up with horror fan host and show runner of this very podcast, Blair Bercy. My name is d Wallis. I'm an actress I'm an author. I'm a healer. I'm speaker. I'm a great mom. And I'm Blair Bercy. I'm a host, and I am a producer of this very podcast. Most people vividly. Member watching their first horror film, probably through covered is my first horror film was Halloween. I'd never seen anything before that not even psycho. And I saw Halloween on the night that John carpenter, the director and I announced our engagement when it was over my two friends turned to each other and said, we can't let her marry him clearly Halloween made an impact on them. But we were curious to know which horror film, made the biggest impact on Blair and d for me, the horror film that had the most impact and also about vengeful spirits would be Namur on elm street, specifically dream warriors, because it, it showed me that horror films can be funny and edgy and FREDDY Krueger probably, I think, has had the most impact on my love of horse simply because there's no escaping him. He is the big bad that you cannot run from because everybody needs sleep. So Fred, he's gonna get you regardless of where you are. My first memory of horror film was not when I particularly enjoyed I was I was very squeamish little girl, and we were not allowed. I was not allowed to watch anything scary. So, of course, my older brother, had to babysit me one night. And he put on the bride of Frankenstein and. I got to sleep with my brother for two months because he led me. I was certain there were monsters in my big walking closet from the minute, we moved into the house. No wonder, you know, all those fears transfer really well into my acting into horror films. The horror film. I think that effect has always affected me the most won't there's to the exorcist and film called don't look now with Julie Christie and Donald Sutherland and. You know. I think it's the, the psychological part of not having control that fears me the most, and I'm watching right now, the hunting and pill house because Henry Thomas who who played Elliot in is in it and. It's freaky -cially a nerve ING watching watching this the series because it, it combines that psychological weakness fear uncertainty with true horror, which takes time to create relationships. You know, I think we're. We just got into slasher films and slasher films. Do not represent true horror films. And. So it's interesting that, that I do all that on the side as well as a lot of run of the mill films have three family films coming out this next year also, but it's always interesting to me that I do the horror films on the horror side. And then I also help he he'll people or teach people to heal themselves from the fears of themselves and of their lives. So it's a interesting dichotomy in a way, but also just kind of the flip side of the same coin. You know, I'm living in Los Angeles right now, right after the shooting, which was less than two miles from my house, in cal- in well outside of Calabasas. That's a much bigger horror film than what I would have to sit in the theater, and help myself get past so d-. I find it so interesting that you've had this huge career from heartfelt films like ET to heartfelt films that are freaking terrifying like cujo, and now with your career, and healing and kind of getting people to bridge loss, and the afterlife is there anything that is too scared of watches there, a film that is just off limits to scare you won't do it. The only movie that, that I've done. That's really, really hard for me to watch, and I don't revisit very often is the hills have eyes. Yeah. First of all, it has a dog I love dogs. And of course, cujo is all about a dog. But could you have to be my favorite film that I've done, but the hills have is, is just crosses that really. Gruesome line for me. I mean, I think it's wonderfully done in who knew all those years ago when we were just going. I. That it would still be cult film that people were asking pictures for, you know, crazy this business, but yeah, I would I would have to say it would be that one of my own film. I ask that for that exact reason because I had a friend, I was telling him that I was doing the show, and we both had the same experience whereas much as we love horror that one is too hard. I wouldn't even watch like any, the remakes, or anything about it. Because after seeing the original it, it that was the worst thing that, yeah, it's I, I don't think I've ever been camping in an RV. I just there's a list of things that I will not do because of that movie, of course, for those of you that are reading frightened from the hills have eyes, just picture, all of the cast staying in one motorhome and the bathroom breaking. So, that'll give you a little inside. Into our own personal. Hell went through shooting that. Yeah. That does make it less scary. I will say that's a little. It makes it adds a little humor to that. So we're talking about the haunting of hill house earlier. You mentioned that I finished it was wonderful and that series. Particularly is just full of vengeful angry female feminine energy, and spirits that are here to kind of dismantle and haunt because of what they have been through. So I'm curious to see your take on vengeful female spirits, and kind of that anger bring being brought into the afterlife. You see this is where the two sides of d come together because I know from my hailing work that I mean I talked to people on the other side guys. So I know that there are no spirits, out to get anybody there. They're evil doesn't work that way, evil comes from. Being limited in a body and the fears that you create from your own perceptions, and focus energies, just energy and energy may absolutely try and reach you to communicate with you. I mean, I talked to Christopher my late husband quite a bit. Not like we're talking, but he reaches me through music and signs in the house that I know correspond with him. But I know in my heart that there are not energies out there to freak you out or to harm you in any way. And that extends into the alien world also. Okay. So then the Mike follow up question with that because I feel like the representation film is I can think of ghost maybe for a soothing spirit. That kind of makes you feel gives you a little closure, but also that, you know, the person is there with you. Why is it then that I guess with horror we stick to this? You know, the ghost is the boogeyman all the time. Why is that such an easy? I guess, kind of Goto why I think ghost being a boogie man is an easy Goto. Because that's the way it's always been way. It's always been, that's way. It's all the Disney films, right? The heavens horsemen you know their bad guys. That's win. An again, anything that is out of our control is a boogeyman. And so what better boogie men to, to try and go out and fighting conquer than those that we can't see that we have no control over that we can't reason with right? And so whatever we plug into within ourselves just grows and grows and grows and. Manifest more fear. We lose more control. So we direct a lot of these fearful things because we're in fear to begin with, and we believe in them, and it makes good movies. And most of these movies, by the way are done by guys. Yeah. Yeah. That is exactly right. And that brings me to a good point that the, the fear that the I think this big bad or the big scary thing that, that seems to be the trend now is the vengeful kind of female ghost the woman that had her kids wrongfully taken away from her or killed or was blamed for something that she didn't do or was told that she was crazy and, or a witch, and that's been the big bad. It seems slightly empowering to see kind of these big scary female characters. But at the same time, why is it always the representations? Always of somebody that had to this horrible trauma, you know, because I think guys that the principle that love conquers all eludes most men. You know they're taught to go to war. They're taught to fight for their woman. Pull out their gun. You know it's. It's very connected to their Dicks. Really feel like for these movies to work, there has to be authenticity to the fear. There has to be something real. There has to be some real nece to at all similar to everyone has brought up throughout the show. Shelley von the shining for many reasons her fear is palpable in believable in real. So my question to you is, as an actress, where do you pull from her? How do you kind of craft that authenticity to something that could seem on paper, kind of flimsier not believable, my purposes, an accurate is to always make the character finnick? I won't do it. I won't do a character if she's not if they don't allow me to do her that way. And yeah, I've fought a lot. I said, yeah, I know you, you need more nude people in the handling, but I'm not doing it. And, and I know the foreign investors want a bunch of women hanging over the banisters with bare breasts. But I haven't in my contract that no additional nudity would be added. And that's why and. You know, also I have to say, like when I looked at cujo I didn't look at cujo as a horror film, ever. I looked at cujo, and especially my part as. As the protrayal of mother, who would do anything to save. Her kid anything, and I can tell you, I did it before. I was a mother. And now that I am a mother, I would not play one moment of that differently. I would do anything to save my kid anything and I, I think most mothers identify with, that there was a part in ET where sorry in cujo where, you know, Danny's screaming. I want my daddy daddy, and I grabbed him and I see. All right. Don't get your father. Right. And Dan Blad our incredible producer came to me. And he said, d we saw the dailies, and I want you to look at this scene, because we're afraid. That people won't like you if we include this scene. And I went in and watched it and looked at him. And I said, Dan, if you take this scene out, you're crazy. There's not a parent in the world. Who hasn't been at that brink of? I'm going to slap the shit out of you because I can't help you. That. Yeah, that's absolutely true that my mom, once again, my mom doesn't do horror has seen cujo. And I think it resonated with her just as a mother of somebody, you know, adopted, a daughter and really wanted a child at that movie is about the, the will, and the persistence, and what things that you can do, when you know that this is life or death. He. The power and the love and the energy that you can call on which, I've, I know from raising my own daughter. You know, Christopher my husband. Her dad died right before she turned seven and. It's a lot of responsibility. And I, I have people come up to me all the time and go, oh my God. The, you know, we loved cujo when we were little and now we've seen it afterward parents, it's a whole different move. I look forward to getting there, because I can completely relate and see that you spoke about putting your foot down and saying no to certain things and part of being within your contract. How did you learn? I guess through experience through the industry to kind of be the voice for those dealbreakers for yourself. How did you kind of find your voice within that because I know a lot of actresses kind of feel like they have to access to certain things because the director asked the studio asked, I did not learn to speak up for myself through this business. I was taught to. Always be true to what I thought the truth was by my very own powerful mother, who was single mother. The mother figure the female figure has always through history represented. The divine the, the love the tenderness the caring, and there's nothing more frightening. Then thinking that can be taken over by evil. And I think that's why we use women more than we use men because let's face it a lot of guys are as holes in real life. We've seen it. You know, I mean a lot of you're lovely loving tender guys. But as far as history is concerned, the guys always have been. Well. The, the less loving nurturing of of the species. Okay. So we've been talking about a lot of the classics that I love this is slightly off topic because I just have a personal question for you. Are there any new movies that you find kind of represent what you love about horror what you love about the John r- just are fun to watch? Is there anything that kind of that you really enjoy? I think one of the most brilliant horror films that we've had recently is a quiet place and again use you see very little horror in that movie. But you see the people being horrified about something that they can't see and you can't see and you don't know why they're so fearful and. That, that's a real tribute to the performances and to the writing and direction of creating that tension. Without I mean you go back to jaws three fourths of the picture. You didn't see the you know you didn't see the monster. Right. But just like the music though too. It's coming it's coming, you know, it's coming, everybody's getting more afraid it's coming there something big out there. And again, it's unknown, isn't it? What we I mean. If we could ever. What's the word if we could ever conquer? Our fear of the end zone. By knowing that we are always in control of our own creation, things, wouldn't be so scary. As soon as you open the scary door to the closet in you see nothing's there. The fear goes away because you've taken control the first time, you know, you go out to do a public speaking event, and you, you know, Nike doesn't pay me, but feel the fear and do it anyway. Right. Just do it, then the fear goes away, and you go, what the hell was. I so like freaked out about, you know, if there's anything I would attribute to my success in lung. Tevi it's, it's what we've been touching on is that I just wanna keep creating as long as I'm creating something. I'm happy. And I'm peaceful, and I feel like I'm in control of my life when I stopped creating and start waiting for other people to create that's when the fear and panic starts to set in, and, you know, I often get the question. Well, yeah, but, you know, d- you're an older woman in the business now and I just have to laugh at myself like, but you see, again, those are. That's what we've been taught is the older. You get the less you create. That's what's expected of you by our society, and it's bullshit. It's just bullshit. That's when you wanna start creating more. How can I keep myself alive? How can I keep myself excited about this life that I still have twenty or thirty years left to live? What can I give where can I create what can I write? Where can I perform? What can I do? How can I expand my healing practice? You know, I think all of this could just keep asking ourselves. Where's the monster? Take him out for a beer and sit him down talked to him until him. We're in charge in get him on board with playing with us in whatever we want to create in our lives. Now. But now, my mental image just immediately went to like you taking a monster out like Michael Myers, and you just, you know, having a beer talking. Well, it makes it a little less scary. Isn't it? Absolutely does. He probably prefer a Bloody Mary, but. Kathy Bates plays a lot of those roles. I love to watch her as an actress I love right now. I loved watch viola Davis. I mean she's evil, she's evil, but you love her because she always shows you the humanity in that evilness you know, which is what we've done with guys for a long, long, long time. I guess I love viola Davis. I live for viola Davis. She is absolutely everything obsessed with how to get away with murder, but also just saw widows and she is really good her, and that little white dog pretty much held that movie down. So, yes, I would love to see violence within a horror film, that would that would really complete everything because she is one of those characters that are so good at being so bad. And watching her is just like a masterclass in how to make re. Really bad people really lovable and likable. Yes, she's a great example, because she's strong in ballsy and sexy and powerful. And yet, you understand her humanity and what drives her to be doing these things in every role? She plays haven't seen the new one about the widows. Oh, but I will go see it, just because she's in it. Yeah. Yeah. And she's a good example of somebody that is pot unapologetically powerful. And I enjoy that. Because even throughout the moments where her characters breakdown that strength is still there. So you still want to root for her even though you know, she's probably damaging many people's lives by playing everybody. It's just you just still want her to win. What do you think? Because that's a good kind of jumping off point. 'cause that character is very new, the kind of anti hero hero, especially for women of color, and on television. What do you think the future of horror is for women within the John RA? Open wide. I think I think horror is open wide for women now. Women directors women, you know, performers. I mean, I never had more fun in my life than killing everybody in the Frighteners. You know. And what was beautiful in the Frighteners was, I got to play this simpy kinda ugly victim character that turned into this ball BUSTER killer. I mean, what actress doesn't wanna play a part like that writing? And I'm I'm really drawn to strong women characters. I, I have a wonderful little film called red Christmas. That's out. DVD and all those places that you get films. And. I wanted to do it because it was that kind of Kerry ter- because she had done some unscrupulous things. In her life around. It's quite an interesting horror film that deals with abortion issues and stuff. And but she becomes. This, this tyrant that again, defends her family against all odds. And and yet. You forgive her for what she's done early earlier in her life. Because you ender stand what her motives were. That she just couldn't do something. And. And that's real. You know, there are women that just can't have Down's children. And there are women that, that can't afford another child in and have an abortion. And, you know, the, the judgment that we hold toward each other has just got to fricken, stop, because we're driving ourselves into our own living horror film through all of this judgment toward each other instead of going, okay. Done work for me if it works for you. You know, God bless you all deal with somebody else, but you live your life. I just don't get it. Why everybody these days think that they have to come in and direct everybody else's film. You know the way they live. It's it ain't going to work, and that's our biggest horror film that were living right now. And that's also another piece of good advice. You don't let, don't let people just come in and director film. It's not their life. It's not there. They're in a story to tell, and don't you go direct. There's true. That is absolutely true. Stay in your lane is a great lesson. I also am so happy mentioned the Frighteners because that's another movie that I feel like is underrated because of the balance in absolute terror. But also the laughter like CHAI is try mcbride's character just there's levity within it, but it gets very scary when it gets scary. So I'm happy. I love the Frighteners one. It's reasons that it didn't make it at the time. Was it was supposed to come out at Halloween? We would've made it, but there was some other big blockbuster movie that wasn't finished. And so universal through it in with all the summer blockbusters got lost. It's such an underrated. That's so good. It is. Is. Yeah. And I own it on VHS and good for you. I love. Yeah. And I thought that summer, I probably went to the theater, because it was just I was blown away, and that's a really good example of comedy in horror within an actual horror film. Yes. I love. It's an everybody's reforms Jake does a good job. You know, Michael FOX's wonderful. You are absolutely terrifying. So I thank you. It's a really good film. Jeff comb. Jeffrey combs. Oh my God. Oh my God. That performance. Jeffrey combs. You know, it's like I whenever I see Jeffrey go. Where did you confront tell me again? How do you put that all together? I mean it's like. Got those questions where you don't wanna go too far because you're like, how did that where where does that come from within your brain? Does that? Yeah. What did you pull from? Well, I asked, you know, Peter Jackson that I said where that hell do all these, if you've seen any of his early fills, LA La Land. I mean he just had to be in Lulla and, you know, Peter is one of the dearest client is sweetest men I've ever worked with. And I've, I've been blessed. I mean Blake Edwards. Oh my God. I o often say I started at the top, you know. What a beautiful beautiful man Joe. Dante just a Lewis Teague. I mean, you know, Louis came in three days into the shooting of cujo. And in picked it up in just turned out a miraculous product and everybody that you've mentioned in all those works are long lasting. And I feel like there has to be something about the balance of kind of energy and work ethic. And that everything that everybody brought to the table because there's a reason why they've, they've stuck around for all this. Yeah. I think it's, it's respect. They respect everyone that they work with. They respect your ideas they encourage you. To bring in your best ideas, rob zombie. I have three from hell coming out for rob zombie. He's the same way. What's it like working with him? Oh my God, I adore, rob. He's the nicest sweetest guy and just I mean, just open to anybody suggestions, and, you know, kind of look at you go. Yeah. Okay, go for it. And if it doesn't work we go over it something else. But to have a director, like that, that, that trusts you and encourages you and it's just it makes the shooting of the movie, so much more. Exciting. Because you feel like you're really participating. So we are wrapping up. We are almost done. Is there anything that I missed is there anything that you want to tell us about why you love being an actress or anything that you want people to ask you that they never ask you, you know, I love being an actress because I think actors or some of the greatest healers in the world, we give people permission to cry, when they can't laugh when they won't. Be frightened and be safe and work through their stuff. We teach them we enlighten them. We touch more people doing one movie than a doctor can heal in a lifetime. I can tell you stories and stories and stories and people that have come up to me about AT and how their lives have been drastically changed by the shift in their lives from watching that movie at, like a, a mom with an autistic, little boy, never heard him speak for ten years. And she took him to see the rereleasing on the way home. He started saying every line E T, it said, now, that's I, you know, she said to me, d you're part of a miracle, that is a wonderful story, and it goes with such a wonderful movie. I know personally for me, ET was so important, because I think that was the very first time I saw a single mom that looked like my single mom not in peril. Not kind of abusive, there was no negative connotation she was just doing her best within this crazy situation. So I'm so happy to wonderful story goes with such a wonder. Awful movie and we get included in the show today. Thank you so much for that. Mandatory. I'm sorry. We're going to have to go. We have to evacuate just heard that. Okay. So the fires are spreading you guys have to evacuate. Thank you so much for your time today, and your insight and your wisdom, and everything that you've given us de. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you, and be safe. And if I ever meet you person I'm going to give you the biggest hug. My arms will be open bed. Thanks, deem, Blair. I'm pleased to report that D And her family are safe and her home was spared from the fire that damaged so much of Calabasas in the coast. I agree with d that spirits, aren't bad. In fact, they can be quite benevolent when my mother was dying she was in the hospital and I spent the night in her room. The room was extremely cold. My mother had a fever. She was sweating. They had the AC on as high as it could go, there was a fan blowing on her. I was in my g. Jeans and a sweatshirt and a jacket over that. And I think I had a robe on over that sleeping on the cut next to my mom with a blanket on me and freezing, and my mother in her sleep started to call out for her mother, my grandmother and my first thought was, oh, shall I wake her is she in pain, if I wake her will, she feel more pain? Shall I just let her sleep which will I do? And I opened my eyes and at the foot of the bed, was my grandmother and all of the sudden, the room, it was, like someone had taken, a fleece blanket and just lowered it on the entire room on me on my mother, the room got warm, and I was filled with the knowledge really that everything was going to be okay for my mom that my grandmother, was there. I could see her as clear as day, and that she was going to be there when my mom passed over so, yes, the you're right as far as I'm concerned your right? I'm Adrienne Bard bow, and this has been, she kills a shudder original podcast executive produced by Blair, Bercy, Killian, van, Rensselaer, Giordano Freyberg, in Debra, Henderson, hosted by Adrian Barbault associate produced by Nancy. Himal- supervising producer Kara free, featuring interviews with d Wallis and Blair, Bercy, sound, recording design and mixing by iceman audio production sound mixing, and re recording mixing by Evan mimic, supervising, sound editing and re recording mixing by Michael Capuano composed by Doug Bossi music by ice by music production manager Kate Tinder production legal Jordan rock production accounting. Stephen d Smith for shudder, Owen shift lit Robin Jones and nNcholas Lonzo. She kills the characters and events depicted in this podcast or. Fictional. Any similarity to any actual person. Living did or to any actual events, firms places, and institutions or other entities is coincidental and unintentional. This podcast is protected under the laws of the United States and other countries, and it's unauthorized duplication distribution or exhibition may result in civil liability and criminal prosecution country. First publication United States of America. She kills copyright twenty eighteen digital store LLC all rights reserved.
Karyn Kusama and Emily Deschanel
"Hi, I'm Adrienne Bard Bo author and star of films like Creepshow swamp, thing, cannibal women in the avocado jungle of death and the convent. And this is she kills a shudder original cod cast where we sit down and discuss all of the things we love about the John RA that has given women some of the most iconic roles in film, history. There's a scene in the convent where the heroine begs made to save her younger brother, from the murderous nuns. Forget about it. I tell her unless he's virgin. He's already dead is not a virgin as he, then I see the look on her face great. It's always something with virgins in this episode, we explore the dated trope of sex equals death from deservedly more modern perspective with women who know thing or two about slashing sexual stereotypes director of the invitation, destroyer, and Jennifer's body. Karn Pasana talks with director, producer and actress Emily dish anelle who not only stole our hearts while looking at dead bodies for over a decade on her TV series bones. But also are in some serious horror Krant after starring in the terrifying. Two thousand five film boogeyman. Mom, I'm Carin Kasama. And I'm a film director and TV director. I'm Emily Dacian, Allah. And I am a an actress or actor and I work I've mostly worked in television for the last many years. But I have also worked in film, we asked car in an Emily, why the death and sex trope exists in horror. Well, I mean, I think, historically, you will think of the women being punished for their sexuality in a way, the with the, the women having sex or being promiscuous, or even coming of age are the ones that are kind of killed. I right. That's what we think of I mean, I think that there's other opera. There's other situations that even way back when where women were empowered in her and weren't punished for the sexuality, but I think that is definitely a trope where they're punished in that way. But also, I think it's I d that. Sex itself is like monstrous force in, in both girls and boys. And it needs to somehow be managed or controlled, or a radical that somehow, you know, recently Jennifer's body has seen a resurgence in audience interest. So he asked car in an Emily, why they think the film is being given a second life, you know it's, it's interesting because nine years ago, there was a real hostility toward the movie in general hostility, even from the studio that made it which was painful thing to experience, but. But I think I personally, I feel so traumatized by the Cavanaugh hearings. And I feel like having watched. That entitled. Not that bright, seeming prick. Lose it on national television, have no one male or female school him on his terrible behavior, have very which we love to say credible witness, as in the victim of his first, and perhaps one of many assaults, speak, authentically and calmly. And from a place of reflection in Christine, Blasi Ford and then to have none of that mean, anything, you know, it's like one horror on top of another hor, it's like the horror, she experienced then the horror of having to relive it in front of a national audience. And then having all of it be for not. I was like this is this is unreal that were that this is. I thought things were gonna change. I actually thought he wasn't going to get confirmed. And to have it all happen again and not be there's a pubic hair on my coke can have it be. A sexual assault. It was really like wow. Women's bodies are just bodies women's lives are secondary. And, and we once again have been reminded of what the fight really isn't a so to answer your question I wonder if there is something about just how stormy and all felt and like this question of do we just have to turn into monsters who like rip a man apart and eat their intestines. Is that all that's left for us? I mean, certainly feels empowering to watch something like that. I think when I think so many women especially were so like you talked about so strongly affected by the cavenaugh hearings. And I mean, I know so many people went to a depression for a period of time, including myself to degree, and they think that it part of feeling powerless, and I think when you watch movie Jennifer's body way. Where, you know, yes, she turns into a monster, but she has power. Right. And, and have two females have power in different ways and the film to you see both of them acting out in different ways and not feeling helpless, where hopeless not way. And I think it might be why there's so much attention for it now is not just because of the metoo movement. But I think you're right with the cavenaugh hearings, I think it just took it to another level of feeling completely helpless, and all. Yeah. And, and I mean, I think the complicated thing about the movie then and even now but in a different way, is that she never chose bad bad kids. She never chose bad boys. She actually always found herself in the company of nice kids, and she killed them anyway. And that kind of like the ruthlessness of that. I think it's like I think we're, I personally felt like. That's what made the movie morally interesting, 'cause I don't think like I don't think vengeance for vengeance. Is sake is actually that interesting. And so, I just wonder if as women were just kind of like wouldn't it be, what would it be like, if we got away with as much as men? Do you know like what if we could just get away with murder and rape, and, and have no consequence? I don't think it's a very happy ending alternately to have that. But anyway, happy ending in the film. You mean in the film, but in life? I mean, personally, I don't have a sense that I. I personally as a woman don't wanna live in a world where I get away with where I do get away with it. I just want a more just world, which is like my problem currently, but it is such a point that she doesn't just go after. I mean it's not just like a rape revenge film, where you're just going and avenging something that happened to her away. She is very much seemed like she's raped in. I mean when she's stopped and killed sacrifice, right? But yeah, it'd be easy for to just be like she comes down those band members and kills them one by one. Right. F but that would be much cleaner, and it is much more morally kind of like swampy. Yes. To. We find your best friends way friend, and, you know, to nice people and you and friends of your best friend, that's goes into, like, you know, adolescent female relationships, too. It's so interesting and complex, I yeah. I think it's probably pretty modern in that way, both current. And Emily have created important female characters in their films and audiences that respect their creative choices. We were curious about what the fan response has been like over the years e I mean because because I worked on a TV show phones for twelve years. And when, you know, and this is an interesting topic we can even talk about is when I just to do to specially doing television show. I want to think about what kind of character I'm putting into the world and like is that not as a role model? But how do I feel about is this, a strong female character and for me playing a woman strong intelligent woman, and science, my? Favorite thing that I hear. And I I'll hear a lot is like people come up to me and say, oh, I went into science because of watching that show and you had it wasn't just my character, but we had several strong female characters, and I would always point out, like, we have the bigger offices. We have the more powerful jobs. We get paid more characters that a lot of them all the male characters have, like a cubic all, or like. Look at what we're putting out there in the world. So I thought about that before taking the job and a good thing as and for twelve years. So you wanna think about that. But I would love to hear from you. When you go into film, are you thinking about, like what you're putting, you know, 'cause you have such strong female characters in your films? And I'm also wondering like, if you think about like, oh, wanna put that into the world or my entertaining. I mean it has to be both right. Or do you think about that, or you story? I don't actually think about female characters in terms of like strength. So much as are they interesting. So even if you know, I mean, one of the favourite characters that I ever got to kind of put on screen was the character of Eden in the invitation who, who is not strong. She super interesting very complicated. She makes terrible choices. And out of a very real and authentic place. And so as the actors I felt Tammy Blanchard had a lot to work with. And I think she felt she had a lot to work with. And she was like, it's part of so for me. I mean, I'm I'm most interested in just like dimensional women. You know, like I think it's so. Dimensional people, too? By the way, I don't think men get, like crazy interesting roles in film, and TV, either really, I think they get maybe more of them and maybe they have the opportunity to advocate, if they're, they're able to for, for something more layered. But historically, it just seems like both film and TV can suffer from not offering enough dimension to, to both men and women, but particularly with women. I'm always hoping like is this just somebody? That is interesting to watch, you know. Yeah, because one thing I'm getting a lot of feedback about is like this interest in kind of bad ass. Women and I do love them. But I tend to feel like bad ass. Women are really lonely in the way, they're, they've typically been depicted onscreen. They're like lone wolves. And that's interesting, but not not. The world. I live in, like the bad ass women. I know are like social workers architects and painters. And you know what I mean? And so in a way, it's like I'm trying to find another way into that conversation because I don't I mean as much as I obviously have been interested in women who use their body against a person to protect themselves or to lash out. I'm also interested in like all the women who I I would like to start moving toward depicting more of those women who I just think are fascinating. Because as your character is their minds are so powerful. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I think that's a good point that it's not just about strength, but it's about having complex character. Yeah, there's a lot of things that is knowledge expertise, something offer. Something to learn from, you know, I personally think is important to talk about, like context and free. Naming and branding and marketing and so, like, in terms of this pushback, or making the change, I couldn't control. For instance, the way Jennifer's body was mis marketed to boys the way it was reviled by critics and fans like there was a lot that I was just like not in control of. But now when people say, what do you think people should take away from the movie or what can they learn from the movie? I just say, will the movie hasn't changed. You know, the movie was always the movie, the movie was always speaking from that place. Maybe maybe the thing that would be interesting to examine beyond the movie at self and your now potential, new openness to it is, why did you dismiss it in the first place? What, what were the cues that told you this is worth not taking seriously? This is worth piling onto this is worth sending crazy violent tweets to Megan FOX, the low Cody for no reason. Like what was motivating that, you know, why do we think this is happening in ourselves, that were so easily willing to just kind of accept the messaging that we get, you know? And so I'm always asking myself like what could really be going on here? How how is something being framed for me because I think it's happening now in such an intense way. Way in in media and culture and politics and religion and, you know, like there's just so many messages coming at us, and I, sometimes want to just like stop and try to. It's like here, the different frequency, like find different frequency and see if there's something else actually getting communicated, that's kind of what I've been thinking about Lleida. I mean, it's such an interesting thing to think about even now, when you think about the political by the Russian whole hack. I mean how the influence an election in our country and have like driven a narrative about certain things in social media. And so why should we just take what we're getting from, you know, whether it's the marketing of a certain film or anything, like why not just sit and figure out what you feel about something right, Italy? And what you mentioned, the idea that in terms of what has been determined about the, the Russian interference is that early on. They can only understood that the narrative people could understand the most was an idea. Of divisiveness complete whole Larry us versus them, you know. And so they kept pushing this idea that Democrats even to liberal leaning people. They pushed this, like complete progressive messaging, and then much more conservative messaging, and as if to sort of create a narrative of divisiveness, and now, we are in lockstep living that narrative of divisiveness, and I really think we should be asking ourselves, like, are we that divided is the person next to me, potentially? My enemy, of course not. That's ridiculous. How can we have believed this so deeply how could we have fallen for it? You know, we're living that now I know you create. Now it's our reality, and, and yet at the same time, it's like I have to believe that the forty eight or forty nine percent of people in these midterms who voted one way or the other are also capable of wrestling with that decision to pull that lever. I have to believe that we're not just ideological Zambia's, but, you know, maybe we are. But I I'm really crossing my fingers. I want to believe we're not want to believe that we're not I want to believe that we're not. And maybe that's my naive. Maybe that's just me, you know being too hopeful, thought it was interesting to going back to you're talking about the reception of Jennifer's body to begin with and just thinking about to how har- as Jarrah was always like be, you know, like the nineteen fifties or wherever when started coming out, as like you go to the drive in for that movie as low budget hopefully as a result, the studios aren't as involved and they can kind of do what they want. But you're, you're always kind of considered like second class genre. Oh, dryly. It's a low brow form. An it's like I it it's, it's like a yeah, it is. It's like the second class citizen of movies in a way. And yet, so many interesting ideas come, particularly because of what you said, I think there's more freedom at these lower budgets, for interesting ideas to emerge, but they come kind of undercover of night, and undercover of the John RA itself. So, so I mean, I've always said, I'm like most interested by the like. I wanna say the art forms that people just instinctively knee-jerk call trash, I'm very interested by, you know, because I'm just kind of, like, basically more than anything in terms of content. Most people are watching porn, wouldn't it be interesting. If porn were more interesting like within that I'm like, I'm so curious like, surely, somebody out there is making interesting point. I don't know if that should be my next move. But maybe like I'm not like ruling it out because I just feel like there's so much. I don't know. There's just so much unpack about, like high and low art. You know. I mean, look at what's happened to TV twenty years ago, people would say, TV was like a second class, citizen of storytelling. That's actually proving to now, kind of almost turn upside down and features you have to work a lot harder to prove your worth a lot harder. Whereas TV, I think is just interesting interesting, interesting interesting and more and more p. People want to be doing vision. Yeah. And so many peop- and so many ways of making television viewing television streaming. I mean everyone's doing different ways totally. And it's kind of exciting. Yeah. Yeah. It is true. I mean I you know, back doing deciding to TV show. I remember has lots of friends who were actors who'd been told don't do TV show and then, like some of them are not working. I you know, everyone makes choices but it's easy to kind of be judgmental about certain things are put things down. But you have to think about why you're doing that. I think it's such people are watching these things. Why are we saying that's lesser than if we're still watching it, and enjoying it absolutely? All and particularly the long running shows yours is one of them, they have intrinsic cultural value because they are run long running long. Like there must be something it's providing you know, there's a cult it's like I always think of shows like the golden girls where it's like Maude. These were shows about older women. Yeah. And people kept watching them because we needed to see it. We, you know, we need to see like a woman in science. We just need that desperately. And so in a way, when was the last time we really saw that in a movie, it's like literally like crickets? I can't even think of. Of you know what I mean? Like so in a way, it's like if this is how we find what we're are unconscious craving. It's really important. You know, it's interesting. Can I ask a question on TV? Yeah. So when you signed up for that show was it like. That you knew it was going to be a five year potential commitment or three year. Like, how does it work? Like, did you ever imagine? Twelve years, never know had a seven year contract, seven those kind of like the I think it's may probably change now even in that work shows. But that's that was always to be shorter. I think it's been shorter. Now he blower, kind of negotiating shorter shorter seasons and less seasons. And all of that. But I find it seven year contract that was every time I did pilot that was what it was. And but I remember thinking I deposits, and they didn't get picked up and I had friends who got shows. But they blasted season or something. Right. So you see that and you know, it's like winning the lottery. So I don't know. I just never conceived of it going for so long at all. I remember thinking when I started, you know, this, this for three years, you know, like this would be crazy if lasted for three years, and then it's I did for twelve years. So. There ever moments that you're like this is a gilded, cage, or did you feel like actually, there was something just gratifying about being there and seeing the show, develop, I would say both, I mean I you know, creatively at a certain point it's kind of frustrating to keep playing. You know, I love playing the character, and she changed over time, which was wonderful in the something you don't always get to do with film, like you can change in film, but it's you don't see gradually happened over time. And you can kind of switch directions as you get in, you know, your how you feel yourself. You talk to the producers and the writers and the network lavas as well and the like the pool audiences about where they want the character to go in certain certain ways. And so you can kind of shape that which is really exciting. Yeah. And I'm somebody who always, you know, I always get excited reading the next script for the show because I always find something that would be really interesting. And I really loved the character, and I really loved the. People I worked with wonderful. I really love doing the show. But at times, I did feel like okay, I love to do something else creatively. Of course. Sometimes I had kids in there. So I was like I wish wartime was for so. Yeah. So both. Yeah interesting, I it's funny because I actually literally thinking about this, when I was driving over here because I recently saw this movie Mandy. And have you seen it is that the Maki Joel? No, it's Nick cage and Andrea respo-, and Linus Roache. And so, I saw it on the big screen where where one should see it and for me, and I really wanna get into this conversation with the director and with people who love the film, and with people who hate the film because I imagine, there's both, but for me the movie was, like sort of expressing this. Like heavy metal feminism that is just like straight down Broadway of my dreams. Like that's. Exactly like where I wanna live that movie and I was kind of watching it. I'm so mad. I didn't make this movie like I'm pissed and I realized, like seeing seeing movies that have very powerful almost mystical depictions of women and having that come from a male immagination was really interesting and moving to me. And it made me think like God, what are the what are the imaginative detours that women are making right now that are that kind of bonkers, and that, like, willfully sort of, like I am holding you hostage to my imagination, and I kind of felt like that's what that movie was doing for me. And I was just like where's the woman, where's the next woman, who's gonna make that movie that just feels like whether you love it, or you hate it, you feel like it is just undeniably? Like emerging out of somebody's brain space. You know. And I do feel like that's something we're going to see more of from women, and I think it's going to be more celebrated I recognize that Mandy was made by a man. But I, but I, I feel like it's somehow about what the w- the dangerous like apocalyptic world that we would be looking at, if, if women continue to be desecrated, and it's hard to watch. It's not like easy, every second, but for me, I was just kind of like all, yes, you know, so personally that movie really inspired me to be thinking about, like, oh, God. You know, whereas the, like where's the female version of that, that director and that, you know what I mean? It's interesting. And I'm going by and my mind when you're talking about, you know, seeing women are women going to be in horror now in this time. And what an LGBTQ Tony. Representation of women of color, people of all you'd think that this is the place for that you won because like we're talking about her being treated like a second class citizen Jarrah like people who've been marginalized in some way. This is the place for for, for everyone to be depicted, and to have soy's about them. And I think that I hope I feel like it is changing. I feel like you know, even if in politics, things are not happening in the way that we think, like, right. Most cultures faster culture is faster. Most people believe the game marriage should be legal. I mean it is, but, like more this that wasn't truth years ago. Right. Right. And like, you know, obviously, where we hind what's happening. But I think culturally were much more head. And also, we are we do live in a place. That is much more. Left leaning, and we work in a business that has much more left leaning in general, and you'd hope that, that kind of take that take it further. And I think that women are craving that people who felt marginalized in any way or craving that. And I think seeing them, empowered and films is just going to be just going to happen more exponentially. That's what I hope. But sometimes things happen slower than we want hard core. Horror fans are constantly rediscovering old works and giving them new life. Do you think it's possible to predict whether a project will rise to cult status? I mean do I mean, I'll stop boogeyman very exciting. I haven't talked about, but I mean, I just, you know what I think is interesting about that. I mean I just did it when I was young and, and, you know, I like those, you know, the walking up the stairs, scares him like. Don't go stairs. But I still went up the stairs. Like I'm doing all those things that I see in movies. But what I liked about my experiencing that is that my character was originally killed. And then we did a whole re-shoot my character live. And of course then there was a boogeyman to which I had nothing to do. No one asked me, I probably would have done a no one asked me. They had a whole other story. I thought that was kind of I really love that, that they decided not to kill me in the end. They tested people. Like, we really don't wanna see that character go. Yeah. I think they did. And I feel like of course they talked to me about, like, oh, well, we won't you there for possible seek, and they probably mentioned at the time. I don't know. Maybe they didn't mean at the time but I believe in at the time and. And, but yeah, I think they liked the character people. I think that's what it was. I think they did test it. And I think people like the character, and they didn't wanna see your die other care. Another female character died and other I you know other. There's lots of scariness, but I don't remember who else does I didn't it on the but anyways so yeah, they did a whole re-shoot I flew back to New Zealand for two weeks to do whole re-shoot to resurrect you too. Young. Exactly to resurrect me, like a Phoenix from the. Yeah. The work what, what lasting impact, I don't think in those terms for myself because I I'm too busy trying to figure out the story. I'm actually just like telling in the moment and hoping that, that has a you know, some kind of honesty, but are. I, I do hope that, you know. I hope we all get to be part of work that can be reevaluated and looked at again and looked out within a cultural context, and, you know, appreciated for the first time or reappropriated, or re sort of assessed, you know, so I'm always hoping that, like there's I mean, it's funny when you bring up this idea of women with limitless powers. I, I actually feel like a lot of Japanese horror works with that idea. And it's interesting that so much of that has been like re- recycled here and probably kind of somehow westernized or Americanized. But there is something about, like women who can. You know, manage to put you in a body puts you in a burlap bag and just sort of watch you wiggle in the corner for a long time. That's a really scary woman, you know, like this woman without. Woman with out compassion that so scary, and maybe that's just getting us closer to the idea of, like, well a human without compassion is terrifying. You know, so it scarier because we want women to be soft and pliable and take care of us. What happens when they have zero interest in doing any of those things? That's the other question too, is like can women characters is part of our, our monstrous, nece as women, the ability to make bad choices that somehow like men, make bad choices, and that's like an interesting story, whereas women make bad choices and their punished for it or their monstrous because of it. But and that was definitely Jennifer's body, kind of, like backlash you know, it's like a little bit. I think there were people wrestling with Jennifer because they wanted so badly for her to simply be an empty vessel to just be Jennifer's body. But. You know, she, she made some choices that were, maybe the wrong choice, but, like she was smart and had agency to begin with in the movie, which made her even scarier once she was just sort of, like, you know, infused with this monstrous, power, you know. I was just going to say that makes me think about how I think of, I think horror is, as Jarrah much more about emotions, right? I mean, and I think that we associate that with few mail scare you know, that's a female uncontrollable. Motions is really scary for women to have, you know, like the hysteria thing. Yeah. I just think it's so interesting. I think that goes to this, deep fear, I think mail fear and probably female fair. You know, like when a woman has strong emotions, it's very scary. And when she doesn't have them that's. And I love thinking that like something that really just like warmed my heart was knowing that initially and all the press, when Jordan Peele was I talking about get out. He was like, well, really my, my, my number one reference, an influence was the stepford wives and I was like, oh my God. You know, like a filmmaker a male, filmmaker is referencing a story about women and women's experience as a as a way forward to his personal sort of foray into personal filmmaking. And I just thought, oh my God. Like this is the this is the revolution is men and women alike, kind of just recognizing each other's stories, as having intrinsic value. Going back to female sexuality and being a fearful thing like if a woman has sexuality that's scary, she has power. I what is the cat, people would ever those like scared to have sex, because she thinks she's gonna turn into cat like that whole thing like of, of, like, you know, haven't turning into a monster and away because of that power, the sexuality. I don't know. It's, it's, it's a scarier thing than for maybe scarier to men only I don't know, but Freeman sexuality in that way. And then also not the you know, repression. Oh yeah, terrify, you said something interesting about, like what are you noticing when you have been out in the world now with your work, and something that I've noticed a lot, and I bring this up, not at all in a derogatory way. But something, I'm I'm thinking about is the number of mostly young women who come up to me. And who say I don't have a question. I just wanna say thank you, and I can feel particularly because they're younger and kind of naive and nervous in their hands or shaking in their voices shaking, and they're like neck is flushed, I see it a lot. I feel like I'm seeing women. At the at the early part of saying you exist. So maybe I exist. And can we just exist together and stand here and? It's really moving kind of uncomfortable for me to be honest. I get a little like. So what's your question? And then I realized that, that's not what this is this exchange is not about that. I'm sure you see this with, like, just. Young people who just want to be near you, to, to kind of, like say, okay, this, this is like, we're, we're here. You know we exist. And so they're times when I feel like the question I don't get is do you exist? And the answer is yes. You know what I mean? Like I know that that's very obvious and simple. But I can feel that there's like this missing piece, which is do you feel you exist? And I realized the work I do is how I get there. And sometimes, I don't feel it when I'm like driving, or looking at billboards or watching CNN. I'm like, you know what actually, maybe I don't exist. Maybe I'm not here. Maybe this is all a dream, but it's kind of nice to recognize that the work, I do gets me closer to feeling like I have presence in the world. And I wonder about all the girls and women and boys and men who don't feel represented somehow if part of what? We're doing is saying no, you are here you're here. And, you know, you kinda instead of raising your hand you just have to start speaking, you know what I mean? Just being there being a vocal and being seed seem see yourself. It starts with Zang yourself. People can see something that reminds them of themselves, whether it be their skin color, gender, or whatever it is that makes them feel like okay you're seeing. And so I'm I can be seen. Absolutely. We all have our like personal freak flags. And I just I just wanna see more freak flags waving. I think part of what I'm realizing we're saying is that it's really important. When women get to do the work, they want to do you know, no matter what it is. They're all kinds of expressions of it. But, you know, when we feel useful in our own lives. I think that's sorry. That's probably just my alarm. I think when we feel useful in our own lives is when we feel like our life is it is being seen in recognized, you know, Emily this was so fun. So nice to meet you car. Great talking with this. This super great. Thank you. Thanks current. And emily. I learned so much about horror films that I didn't know from the to view. So I'm really looking forward to our show. And I hope all of you will join us. I'm Adrian Bourbeau and this has been, she kills a shudder original podcast executive produced by Blair Bercy, Killian van, Rensselaer, Giordano, Freyberg, in Debra Henderson, hosted by Adrian Arvo associate produced by Nancy, himal-, supervising, producer Kara freeze, featuring interviews with Carin, Kasama, and Emily dish, anelle, sound, recording design and mixing by iceman audio production sound mixing, and re recording mixing by Evan, Minic, supervising sound, editing and re recording mixing by Michael Cup one. Oh, composed by Doug Bossi music by spy music production manager Kate Tinder production legal Jordan rock production accounting. Stephen d Smith for shudder, Owen shift, Robin Jones and nNcholas laws. Oh, she kills the characters in events depicted in this podcast. Fictional. Any similarity to any actual person living or dead or to any actual events, firms places, and institutions, or other entities is coincidental and unintentional. This podcast is protected under the laws of the United States and other countries. And it's unauthorized duplication distribution or exhibition may result in civilized, ability and criminal prosecution country of first publication United States of America. She kills copyright twenty eighteen digital store LLC all rights reserved.
Anna Biller and Dana Schwartz
"Hi. And welcome. I'm Adrian Barboza actress author and star of two evil is the fog Creepshow swamp thing, and a lot of other delightfully scary horror projects. And this is she kills a shudder original cod cast where we sit down and discuss all of the things we love about the John ra- that has given women, some of the most iconic roles in film history, when it comes to movies, women outspend men at the Vauxhall ffice, and women have more screen time in horror films than in any other genera. It's good to know that in genre of film, historically marketed to men women can find empowerment, escape, humor, and entertainment. I've been making movies for four decades. I've made screwball comedies family dramas psychological thrillers. A best picture Academy Award winner, and I've made a slew of horror films with more to come. And you know what I love making horror films, the Goodwin's at least horror runs the emotional gamut for an actress, it's so much more fun than playing judge on law and order horror is flexible. It can be funny thought provoking, deeply sad and scary as hell. It's one of the few films genres with a little something for everyone, whether you want Oscar winning films like Rosemary's baby, and the exorcist or the sheer entertainment of b movie blood fests, like killer, clowns from outer space and zombie strippers, we love them all equally. We sat down with the hilariously brilliant Entertainment Weekly journalist Dana Schwartz. A diehard horror fan and writer director and classic film enthusiasts on a biller to talk about all the things fun. Famine fantastic about the gene row. We all adore. My name is Ana biller and. Dyma-. Filmmaker my name is Dana Schwartz. And I'm a correspondent at Entertainment Weekly to kick things off. We asked on and Dana about their first exposure to horror. I was always kind of a worst with hormone VI's where I was just scared to even get into that world. I remember my sister, watching the ring my older sister, and I made her describe the plot to me in detail because I was fascinated by it, but I didn't wanna watch it myself and that sort of translate as I got older. I would like read the Wikipedia page of horror movies obsessively, but I love this episode name because I do, remember watching Kerry as like my dad's adjusted as a family movie. He's like, latch watch Carey, and I think he forgot that the opening scene is like almost shot like a softcore porno movie where they're like young women in shower. My dad definitely was like, oh, God. I forgot what this movie was, but I wait Nakal that through, and I remember loving carry in that final reveal that moment at. The great without spoiling anything, I had never had that feeling before as a young person watching movie. It like stuck with me because such a smart movie and integrated a jump scare in such a intelligent way, but it's still totally got me. So I've been trying to chase that high ever since like, I would watch just a brilliant movie that was insightful and interesting and funny, and then could match that adrenaline rush of jump scare I think the first horror movie, I remember watching it was on television, and it was a little girl, and it was, it's called horror hotel, and is in the British name of city of the dead. And I didn't know for years and years. I never knew what the name of that movie was, I was scared the daylights out of me. It's black and white movie for nineteen sixty it is about these this, the student college student goes to this town called light water with his covenant, which is. And she gets sacrifice. And it's the most shocking thing she says Plon to engineer, she's completely innocent, and she's like literally taken underground by who did, which is who are chanting Nevil chance. And she still to this, the most, it was the scares me receipt. And then there's this, they're like these dead birds that are put on people's doors that are targets, which, and just it was so frightening. And then there's this girl, she's like the her friend, that she made in the town that avengers are death in later years later, when I saw the movie psycho real exactly the same plot structure, because the blonde engine dies in the middle. And then her it's like, in psycho her sister investigates, and this, it's her brother, who investigates with the girl that was her friend, so sibling investigates. But it's also the woman who's taking over in it. You had done it with a second woman that the second half was very weird things that came out the same year. But for years, I was like trying to house was, like, did you ever see that movie with those? Booted witches underground that stab. And nobody ever said seen it or new talking about. I think a lot, not only that, but, you know, some of the other movies, I saw as a kid like you, like I saw carry as well and Rosemary's baby. And, you know, the men and all these movies that were like, really, you know, really scary and, and really memorable, you know, they really stick with the, you know, my interest is, I'm so focused on on classic movies. And I think what I've noticed in the last few years, is that a lot of the classic movies that are really love, actually, the precursors to the modern horror films of the final girl. They're like the gothic were in the gothic thrillers that are about women's fear of men and you know, of patriarchy movies, like gas slide Rebecca or suspicion or sudden, fear, like these movies that are there's really like like somebody who's out to get them and they're fighting and they fight this. Man, and they fight this evil and they come out in the end and they're stronger. It's all about following them. And so I've recently realized that I think that the final girl figure like from movies, like HOGAN is actually maybe kind of a continuation of that of that kind of sort of, like gothic heroine. It's I'm so glad you brought up Rebecca, I just saw the news of the, the remake with Armie hammer which I love, I'm he's a perfect maximum. But I am szeswith Rebecca and was obsessed with the book, and I remember reading Rebecca, the first time my the copy I got it had, like, like red silk. You know what I mean? So like was framed like a romance novel, and then I read it not really like knowing that it was like supposed to be a good book, but not really knowing what it was, and it was like such a brilliant, horror story. And so, I think so many of my favorite hor movies, and horror books, are like insidious in that way, I have remember reading this brilliant interview with because we were she guru who wrote. Remains the day. He won the Nobel prize, and he in the interview he's like rains today supposed to be a horn novel because it is, it's that, like subtle reveal like psychological manipulation a little bit, and like the reader and the protagonist. So I love and in film and books. When the horror is like a Trojan horse, you brought up we were talking bit about Jennifer body before the podcast begins, and I do specifically, remember watching that movie and Diablo cody's dialogue is so playful. I'm going to butcher the quote. There's a, a moment where man to see free. It's character needy cyst like she sees Jennifer, like trying to attack inches. I thought you only boy you and she's like I go both ways, and it's just so the campy and funny and seemed totally directed to me at that moment. I think I was in my late teens at that time. And I had not seen very stylish Hollywood movie. That was so tongue in cheek. Cheer. Wow. Nice insult hands on Tanna getting more her stakes. You know what you are. Never a good friend, even will use you might for eliminate on my bed, and now I need your boyfriend. See at least I'm consistent so. Champ. He's a just a tick me off. Or is it because you're just really insecure? I am not insecure needy. God that joke. How could I ever be insecure? I was snow flake cre-. Yeah. Two years ago when you were socially relevant. I am still socially relevant when you didn't need laxatives to stay skinny. I going to eat your soul. You only murder I go both ways. I do think it's that sort of movie Jennifer's body among many others, where I was like, oh, movies car allowed to be fun, or movies, especially especially criticism can be really a club of people who take this world very, very seriously and take their roles as gatekeepers very seriously of what horror movie is and should be into looked like it was interesting about Jennifer spotty, when you read the criticism, initial critics reactions to it was that how many men, like, quote, it was no fun, just be before doing this. Like last week, I was just looking over some of the reviews of it, and how many people said it wasn't funny. I thought that was interesting because I feel like the humor, actually you almost maybe have to be a woman to get the humor because it's sort of lost like the, the real news of humor's kind of. Awesome. And so, like, I think a lot of the, the horror movies that are made. My man are fun for them. So the ideas like you fight like, oh, this is fun. Because there's a condition because it's from a woman's point of view. It's written by women. It was fun for I so it's like this idea that fun has to do with recognition of something real in your life, that you can recognize you know, so a lot of the male fantasy horror movies are really fun for men, because they recognize you know, dark forbidden desires for women that you're trying to repress. They make you feel monstrous and you of the monster, and you're you want to kill her, but you wanna love her anyone this, and you wanna that and you just sort of like it's real for them, you know. And it's this way that is fascinating because I was thinking earlier that so much of hor hinges on vulnerability, you know, for the audience we have to put ourselves vulnerable position. And the, the protagonist has to be a Volna Rable position because they're safe. There's no nothing interesting. If the police exist, you have to lose cell phone reception. You and so. It serves that the, the heroin is culturally, vulnerable women are when you are the second, MRs DOE. Enter your vulnerable to the whims of and fancies of your husband women, historically, especially and women of color, are the people who are socially vulnerable in that way. So it always serves to use Hort to explore that. And so it is ironic. Yeah. And so, like, you know, thinking about why women might be so drawn to where no days that could be a lot of the reason the that women are centered in horror, so much more than a lot of other shawna's. But also you're asking about the cattle is going to retain industry and this, this credibly corny but literally what happened when I was in school when I was in film school, and it wasn't sure what kind of films that I wanted to make was that. I actually was actually Laura movies essay on the on the gays, so visual push unaired cinema presented from you. Challenge to actually try to create a cinema visual pleasure for women like it didn't take just thought. Well, first of all, I don't think she's right? Because I think that the women's pictures of the forties, and fifties were very much made for women and very much presented FEMA gates. But on the other hand, I thought you know, it's true that there is so much of cinema that doesn't take that into consideration or the or the female point of view is secondary. So I took that of a challenge, and that focus, my filmmaking in the sense that it gave me like a really fit like a really important reason to be a filmmaker other than just expressing random images are ideas that were that were just personal giving a larger social goal. It made me feel like my filmmaking was about a kind of activism, and that it also made me want to try to figure out what, what what is personal. You know, the make the political personal not think about what other people are doing or what other people. Are making, but just think about who I am how I feel what things. What do I really like him? Why do I like it? And that's actually what led me down the path of realizing that these women's pictures about women in peril were really exciting to me in that led me to horrors. Well, there are very few female journalists who write about horror movies. It's still very much feels like a boys club and club that I do not feel like I'm a part of like totally with all candor. I feel like an imposter when I write about horror movies, sometimes which is insane like I've grown up watching movies. I'm a professional film critic. And yet, sometimes because when I write about hormone because I'm not sort of like in that coterie. I do feel like I'm on the outside. No way that, like my boyfriend at the time was also a film critic, and he writes about horror movies, and he knows all these people. He's like, oh, I got dinner with him last week. Like there's this intimacy as in the horror community that. I don't think exists in other film genres that I hope comes more inclusive to two women over time and gradually. We'll see I mean for me. What's interesting, his, I think that there's a goes hiking about earlier in terms of Jennifer's body. There's a there's a kind of a perception. I mean we used amend stories on the screen. So when you see a woman story on the screen, it feels wrong like feels like it's like it's like it's, it's whereas I've heard applied to my work on focused or you know, she what she's doing. You know it's badly done. And you know, I know exactly what I'm doing. And I know exactly what I'm saying, but it may not be with other people are doing and saying, but it's just that we need, you know, audiences get need to get used to more female filmmakers telling stories from a female point of view because otherwise what happens is like, you know, there's like become unconventional just through the fact of not being a man. You unconditional or or stranger weird in a way that you're not intending to be. You're trying to be true, honest to kind of an experience there. Why push back against the male critics a lot because I think it's great that they have their own opinions and their own ways of looking at cinema, but they should also be sort of a wear of the fact that, if a woman does this, she does that may not mean what they think it means from their point of view. It's not a movie made. So most people thought it was a movie, interestingly from a male point of view the love, which even though it's clearly to me from the female view. That was interesting. So, for example, a lot of men said, it was like my work amount of smile, which would mean it would be like, on male director of justifying actress, and just because they find the actress beautiful doesn't mean that, that's my point of view in creating the film. Interesting. Yeah. Especially so there's this thing in, in comedy. I think has been summed up really singly Raphael walks. Berg is the creator of Bo Jack horsemen sum this up really eloquently in a blog post where in comedy if you're telling a joke, you want it to be as clean and to the point as possible. So the joke itself is clear, like guy walks into a bar. Guy is just neutral. There's nothing about the guy where if you said, a tall man, walks into a bar, you assume than the, the punchline is going to be something about the man being tall. Where if you write, you know, a woman rocks into a bar, you would assume that the joke is going to something about her being a woman, where like that should not be the case man shouldn't be the default where. Woman added onto it is a modifier but unfortunately culturally decide it is. And that's something that I think people subconsciously don't register interns of protagonist in heroin. You're talking about the boys club. So the way that manifests in, like, when you're trying to make films, sometimes, I think a lot of it's the same thing that there's a kind of there are more female producers now. But there's still the thing where like amount will read a script and people read a scripted level. You know, it's like, does it feel right in there? Good. And I think sometimes it's really hard for mound to read a script on an have resonate with them on a level. If it's all about female experience, so he'll just think there's something wrong with scripture, it's barely written. And so that's, that's the biggest obstacle. Getting your projects made thing is not see if I wanted to write, you know, the choice to write about women, you know, I could also write about man, I could have made productive. I you know, a probably. Have these issues? It's not so much a female writer. It's, it's more that I'm, I'm telling stories that are from the set that are about women. Yeah. Like who the characters are in, you know what I mean. Yeah. Because Kathryn Bigelow, you know, she wins the award for a movie about men in war, you know. And that's not a coincidence. Yeah. I, I mean, I don't think men are afraid of the same things women are afraid of I don't think there's necessarily empathy there. And I think horror movies, all movies, but Hormuz, especially are about empathy because you need to transmit that emotion to a viewer sort of a similar thing, happens. I read an article about how obviously few how little representation there has for women and, and minorities in writing rooms in late night, comedy shows, and that's because people submit the packet blind. But if it's a room of all white men, reading the jokes jokes written from a minority or women female perspective, just might not be as fun. To those white men reading the jokes as jokes written by people who shared all of their experience it to self perpetuating audience where it's like, well, yeah, if it's all white men who is reading the packets of what they find funny. They're going to continue that, that trend of, of refilling their ranks as it were. I think screamed greens at that idea is away to diminish women from the male gaze. I think the label scream Queen, and the way they're presented always in the ripped blouse the damsel in distress even if they have that final girl moment and save the day, it's still very much narrative of women told from a male perspective of what a quote unquote heroin, looks like so I do think sort of the archetype of a scream, Queen is sort of an antiquated idea. But at the same time, and I do think these two ideas coexist, the scream, Queen is a is one of the only ways we've seen, and one of the most empowering places we've seen. Women of their own agency operate with force and intelligence and they can be sexy and powerful the same time where their narrative, and their story doesn't entirely depend on that of, of a male protagonist. So I think that idea of scream Queen is overall positive, but I hope it evolves with women at the home. I mean, you know, the screen queens is actually sort of a newer concept. It really didn't exist in the classic movies and it really was more of a ma- making fun of, you know, all the sort of sexy pretty girls in peril. But, you know, the whole women in peril thing in films. They've been really lot of really incredibly good women in peril films actresses, who play them have been really, really great like one thing, I think about is getting Joan Crawford in here. Sudden fear starting to Crawford, where she she has this younger man, who's married her for money, which is playwright and she's incredibly fierce and, and she's never needed. Anyone should never needed a man, she's ever phone, but she's getting a little older and she's feeling like you know, she does the one thing she's never had in her life. She's wealth, and reputation and beauty and brains and everything. She's just never really allowed herself to really be vulnerable. So this, you know, toll complete psychopathic actor issues rejected. Replaces flowing, the marrying him. And then she finds out he's planning to kill her with his girlfriend gory. Graham. And think about, you know, you could never call Joan Crawford. A scream Queen, she's like she never really she means she does scream. I think it's pointing, but she's also like she turns the tables on him, and she's, so she's eighty Janus I will say that the very scary movie. Yeah. But this is this is like, she's, I mean, but she's not grotesque in this movie, she's beautiful and she's and she's she's resourceful. Edgy comes of the plot to actually trap him get him killed and, and, and, and, you know, you can see the, the, the wheels turning her mind and desire for revenge and she's able to construct this this elaborate plot because she is a play. Right. And she knows how to write murder mysteries. And she finds a weapon she and then in the end she, she's two she realizes she's become this monster. And she doesn't like who she's become so she doesn't. Killing him. But the thing is, is that ends donning anyway, but you know, he gives an accident over. But, you know, thing that before the scream, queens, you have these heroines that were women in peril, who were so dimensional so powerful and they're the, the stories were in about them, but there wasn't this distance or so consciousness? Think about them with this almost derisory way of thinking about them as being made to be imperil or being made to scream or being made to be down to stress just like a great character in a play, or drama, yet, you know, I actually feel that same thing about the original hollowing movie, I think my favorite part of, of the original Halloween is third of these subtle moments were Laurie throat is, who's the, the great Jamie Lee. Curtis is talking with her friends about a school dance that they're her friend is like, oh, I told him you ought to go, and she some Barras, and it's like these very human intimate moments. When I mean she's facing off against a. Raised killer, whose murdering her friends arranging them in, like wacky Tableau for her to find, but at the same time, there's this real human, depth to her being embarrassed about a boy knowing that she wants to go with him to the school dance. We don't even see that, boy, it doesn't even matter. But like the plot has this real patients with her, and with that matters. So her as an actress, I think that, you know, because I, I was reading interesting, I was reading this book by Molly HouseCall about this morning. And there was this thing about how the release of roles for women that were intended to keep wound in their place, and the classic studio era. But how the actresses themselves were so excited and so compelling and so strong. It's amazing that, that, that the roles in which the actresses themselves incredibly fearsome Powells point, sometimes played against the script even on love them or the ones that are remembered. So there were, there were all these movies, like we never see any more like dozens, hundreds of these look, really mediocre movies with women were playing these dutiful housewife through life for a man. We don't remember those bitty Davis played those roles burbs Yarmuk play. So we don't remember those fails, we remember, the ones where they were really, really furious. I think it's a, it's a bit like that, with a horror genre where I think there were some of these films, he slasher films were men were were maybe trying to put women in the play show that we can kill you your, your dispensable where you get an actress, Jimmy Curtis who would play it with so much intelligence and in sensitivity and bring the character into know so much roundedness that that's what we remember about it. We don't remember. It's, you know, just just the sadism of it as much as we remember that, you know, so it's sort of like these actresses and kind of transgressing their material, or transcending materials, sometimes, and then and then it becomes this thing where people are writing on purpose because of that performance and, you know, on purpose because they see that, that's popular people like that better. And those movies come out better than movies where you just have women as, as sort of nameless, sexy victims that creates another type of. Movie and also there's this, I think tendency sometimes lazy screenwriters, especially with female characters to go into tropes. And this was satirized and cabin in the woods, but women over the popular cheerleader the awkward book, nerd or whatever. But the thing about Laurie strode and I kinda liked. I think one of the reasons it, hold it up so, well, it's like she's popular and she has friends, but she's still like a normal cool girl in this in this weird way where she's not. I hate the minute that there's a gorgeous model who's, like I have no friends and nobody's ever liked me. I'm like, okay, I'm out peace in thinking about horror from Connecticut to slasher. We wanted to know what character or project do they most identify with or would have loved to have worked on for me? It would be like pros and community like repulsion, you know, where Kevin Gina is, is totally psychotic and not that, I'm you know, totally so caught it. But. You know, the sympathy so much with her, even though she's a monster. This idea of a, you know, just just the things that she suffered and indoor in the way that it's made her. And 'cause I, I really respond strongly to sort of crazy people in movies, and it relies Deborah Kerr in the innocence being like, totally crate mad in the end in this is the progression to madness. I really with characters like that. I if I more of the monsters in movies than I usually do with him. Normal people I will say when I was watching the movie, the witch and at the end when she signed with black Phillip, I was like girl. I would fricken sign that book my family, your family family's been mean to you for so long. They hate you, you deserve that. Floating cabal with the witches. I was all on board. I was like, I don't know if this is the right message, but I want to be part of that I will devour and infant and be part of that great girl squad. I was rooting for black. Phillip at by the end of that movie I was like signed the book. I mean, that was a good example, scapegoating and movie which you don't see that much. Yeah. I know. Right. Because it's about a goat. I love I'd great. I think stylistically he's, he's brilliant Chana, the debt is, is a great movie. I wish we got more of those. There's a tone that sometimes comes with, like, buddy comedies, where it is a very masculine buddy, buddy tone, and I think we're moving in the world of comedy where we're seeing more female driven comedies with women who can sort of be friends will see female friendship. I want to see a female friendship driven hor movie in a Shaun of the dead style. So I look to see more female characters who are little bit more complex, and maybe a little bit more perverse feel a Convery perverse, and I feel like they're women are getting locked into having to play, you know, sort of badass bitches all the time in every single movie, and I feel like it's, it's, it's like we don't seem too many flawed characters anymore. So we're releasing the sense of women as being. A little bit more dimensional, I'm working on a movie now out of tation of the fairytale blue beard, and the key, the heroin and sort of like this amalgamation of all the Gotha Caroline's and because of that she is really kind of flawed in the sense that she has strong, but she's also kind of perverse, because she's made blueberry and, you know, she doesn't realize he's blue. But the, the idea is that, that sort of that sort of dilemma of sort of a woman who loves about man. You know, like a woman like women who love too much for women who stay in bad relationships or women who are complicit in their own destruction. That's kind of perversity. So I, I'd like to see more more perversity in female roles. Yeah. And I think that, that to go back to the, the buddy idea also like the leading women be flawed. There's this element when there's only one woman. She has to be all things to everyone. And so, I think the final girl the problem with the final girl is that it singular. It's like I want to see a movie where there can be more than one cool, bad ass female character horror movies that pass the Bechtel test. And since we're talking about final girls, we had to ask on about the Twitter brouhaha that started after she voiced her opinion on the trope. Well, yeah, and I think that it was because I actually didn't I think that was a mistake, what I tweeted, because I don't think I said exactly what I meant to say. I think it was just because it was a tweet and it wasn't enough characters. I think I'm a gave the impression that off Arnold girls suck or something. And that's not really what I meant to say. What I meant to say was sort of, like, along the lines of what I said earlier about the whole movie was that most of these male writers producers aren't putting final girls in their movies. Because their main goal in life is to create a feminist movie with feminist character. The end the creating entertainment from house audiences, at least half their audiences are men, especially. Boys who are who are very, very charged excited by watching the killing of the violence. I was just advocating for a little bit more honesty in away. I like for people to be honest about whether watch things, so for so free sample. Like the thing got a lot of flack for during that same thread was that I said, I'd never seen Texas chainsaw massacre. Well, now I've seen it, I didn't see it because I was bullied into it because I wanted to. But what was interesting to me, was how much I was bullied for not having seen it like, like a sort of a rousing like, because if I'm like some six, like, like, I'm frayed to smoke a joint or something. It was very interesting. How much how how how set everybody got hand seeing that movie people on Twitter loving upset and. It was weird because I you know, I don't really sit something kind of snarky and that was mistakes. Well, because they have to be careful what you say, because people can take the long way it was mainly because I am little bit afraid of really gory movies, and I sort of was honest about that. Sometimes really gory movies of set me. So I've seen the movie and, you know, basically the reason I was asked if I'd seen it was in the context of do you think that's a really great photo girl? And I can't comments but liquids be honest about we walked by. We watch the Texas chainsaw massacre. It isn't because we were searching for the most feminist character that we can find cinema and looking to, to edify our selves, the feminist tracks. We're watching it for different reasons and is about sort of being honest about why we watch things. So I think it's okay to love violence blood gore. Whether you're masochistic with your sadistic. Whatever reason you wanna watch it. It's great. And it is entertaining. Strong. It is actually incredibly effective movie. But I don't think it's a point of it is to be feminist. I think there several feminist horror movies that were made in the classic. Vintage more periods of the stepford wives, demon seed and season of the witch of the only three that I can think of that are that were deliberately feminist on. I just had to push pushback like challenge challenge, not even challenge continue that conversation, one thing that I think I slightly disagree with, is idea that like horror movies, need to, like wha we'll watch movies because they're like, feminist tracks. I am like an ardent feminist. But I don't necessarily think that all entertainment needs to have I'm gonna phrases carefully 'cause like Twitter, you know, things not you. I think entertainment needs to be feminist and I was very clear about that. In fact, wrote this long blog posts about how very few very few are finished, and they shouldn't be they shouldn't be. MS sorry that I made for your team. I think I misspoke, I'm saying when we're like, well, this is, you know, feminist homework, people push back. But I think there can be like super entertaining, mass pieces of popcorn entertainment that have more than one complex female character because also. I was watching it. Yeah. You know. So, so there are two issues here. One is the issue of whether something's feminist. And the, the issue over there, something is, is attracts, a lot of female spectators other female spectators can enjoy. And I think they're two separate issues. So I never I was never try. I think so what I said, was muddled because I didn't mean to say with these are not for women women shouldn't like them. They're not made. You know, the women in fact, you know, I can see how people being sold to buy that because it's almost like you're saying women are scared, or they're, they're her weaker delicate. And that's not all what I was trying to say, I was just trying to say, you know, this is the entertainment industry. And the reason I I'm even said that at all. Excuse know for a fact, just because of being in the entertainment industry and trying to make missiles for so many years. I know for fact, how little producers the industry interested in making still saying this from experience. I just know from being in the industry, how little pr-. Producers are interested in creating feminists foams. So I found that it was a bit of hypocrisy when all of these articles started coming out at the health famous these films are is if there had been an it was only an attempt for people's try to tie feminist politics into entertainment. That was already out there that would never have that intention. So that was all he was trying to do is to point out the fact that whether women find impairment in these roles are not it wasn't like in the seventies male producers were actually trying to create feminists impoundment with movies, like Harry yet. I mean as of this taping there has not been Jason Blum plume. House has not had a female directed film. So it's like I fully agree that a all male club can't take credit for how feminists they are. I mean, that's really basically I was saying at the final girl is not necessarily, especially in the earlier films, not necessarily written in order to give women sort of a feminist character to identify with. Oh, that's what ended up happening. I say my my final. Some Asian hor movie thing is just more women in the room female characters are great. But that doesn't mean a lot if it's not women writing them and women directing them. But this has been so great. It's been so wonderful to meet you and hear your thoughts on this. Yeah, it's been a lot of fun to talk to you guys. It's really it's really great. And I'm glad I got a chance to hopefully clear my name a little bit. Anything on Twitter. I really felt so I really I really didn't. I didn't know how to fix it. Once it happened, you know. But, but anyway. Yeah. I mean what is it? What is it really if, if there are any producers out there listening to this? I have a really fabulous a horror script right now that it's going out to this moment. Thanks a lot. Thank you, Dana for a wonderful conversation. And thank you for being so candid about your Twitter. Experience. I'm Adrian Bourbeau and this has been, she kills a shudder original podcast executive produced by Blair, Bercy, Killian, van, Rensselaer, Giordano, Freyberg, endeavour, Henderson, hosted by Adrian Barbault associate produced by Nancy, himal-, supervising, producer Kara freeze, featuring interviews, with una, biller, and Dana Schwartz, sound recording design and mixing by iceman audio production sound mixing, and re recording mixing by Evan, Minic, supervising sound editing and re recording mixing by Michael Capuano. Composed by Doug bussey music by spy music production manager Kay Tinder production legal Jordan rock production accounting. Stephen d Smith for shudder, Owen shift lit Robin Jones and nNcholas laws. Lonzo. She kills the characters events depicted in this podcast. 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