15 Episode results for "Cox automotive"
Roblox Engineering with Claus Moberg
"Roablocks is a gaming platform with a large ecosystem of players. Creators game designers and entrepreneurs the world of roablocks is a three dimensional dimensional environment where characters and objects interact through a physics engine. Roadblocks is multiplayer and users can interact with each other over the Internet. roablocks is not one single game. It's a system where anyone can design and monetize their own games within roadblocks over the last fourteen years ears. Roadblocks has grown to be massively popular as the product has grown. The software has evolved to meet changes in consumer demands and engineering constraints client devices. Include mobile phones desktop computers in virtual reality. All of these clients must have a consistent experience in graphics and functionality. Thirty the back end platform has to support a high volume of concurrent players who are accessing a high volume of content. The networking needs to support multiple players operating rating in an environment. That Demands High Bandwidth Klaus. Moberg is a vice president of engineering at roadblocks and he joins the show to discuss the engineering of roadblocks and the future of gaming we are hiring a writer and a operations lead. The writer is somebody who would be writing about software engineering and and computer science and a part time capacity and the operations lead will be helping us run our business more effectively and that's also a part time role. If you're interested in either of these roles send me an email. Jeff at Software Engineering daily Dot Com. We don't exactly know who were looking for. We don't exactly know what skillset that we're looking for so don't be shy. I'd love to hear from you. Cox Automotive is the Technology Company behind Kelley Blue Book Auto Trader Dot Com and many other car sales and information platforms Ormes Cox Automotive transforms the way that the world buys sells and owns cars. They have the data and the user base to to understand the future of car. Purchasing and ownership Cox Automotive is looking for software engineers data engineers scrum masters and a variety of other positions to help push technology forward if you want to innovate in the world of car buying selling an ownership checkout checkout Cox Auto Tech Dot Com. That's C. O. X. A U. T. O. T. E. C. H. dot com to find out more about career opportunities. And what it's like working at Cox Automotive Cox Automotive isn't a car company. They're a technology company. That's transforming the automotive automotive industry. Thanks to Cox Automotive and if you want support the show and check out the job opportunities at Cox Automotive Gooda Cox Wchs Auto Tech Dot Com Claus Moberg. Eric Welcome Software Engineering Daily. Thanks super excited to be here. You work at. Roadblocks roadblocks has existed for fourteen years. It's a large large gaming. Ecosystem scribe the roadblocks platform in its current form. Absolutely so perhaps the easiest thirty thousand thousand foot description is that what. Youtube is to video. Content roadblocks is to three D multiplayer video game content. Ed that is that we produce a set of tools and a platform that lets anybody in the world create a three three D multiplayer online experience or game and we also build the platform that lets random people from the Internet. Come MM and play that game in a superfund social context so we have about a hundred million players that common experience these these games that they themselves created every month. And it's just amazing destination where you can go play Subaru birther original creative gaming experiences with your friends online and if you want you can actually make them yourself. Give a few examples samples of the kinds of games that people build and play. Yeah it it really looks like a microcosm of the greater gaming aiming industry at large right. Now there's everything from social online hangout games to first person shooters to mobile as as to you know you name it. Whatever your favorite game genre is? There's probably a version of that that's live. On roadblocks today traditionally traditionally our audience has skewed sort of towards the nine to thirteen year old age demographic and so a lot of the games toward a sort of skewed towards is that demographic is well though especially as of late. That's really starting to change. We see some more competitive content. That is skewing towards older age demographics as well being becoming very popular on the platform describe the process that someone goes goes through to make a game for roadblocks so roadblocks provides a software a game development environment that we call roadblocks block studio. It is a full featured game development environment if you're if you're familiar with the unity. Heidi ear the unreal idea. Looked pretty familiar to you with some specific differences by within that you have control over. You're basically everything in your game. You can Script game play in our scripting sandbox the the language that we provide to users Lua which is a very popular game scripting language in the industry. You top roadblocks experiences will include about yep upwards of fifty thousand lines of code but they also have full custom three d meshes that are uploaded to roadblocks asset services include clued full maps and and three D. environments. That you bill. We have terrain editor that. Lets you build beautiful three dimensional multi material terrain. At Yeah Yeah basically. It's it looks relatively similar to what building a game in any other major popular three D game. Id looks like today Eh. The the one big difference is that sort of central to the roadblocks. Ito's is trying to make that game development mid-process dramatically more efficient for the developer. So most of the other sort of AAA development environments that are out there air you start with a complete blank slate. All your defaults are empty when you start a project and you have to build everything from the ground up. Roadblocks blocks really starts with the idea that we are going to provide our developer with starting point with rational defaults. Thanks for everything from the strength of gravity to a base plate. That's the basis for the three D world that they're building to a set have players scripts that describe how our three D Avatar would interact with its environment in the game. The developers always able to modify all of these defaults defaults in build their own player scripts or are their own gameplay elements obviously radically changed the base plate. Man All that kind of stuff but we think the by providing a reasonable defaults. They can actually move dramatically faster. And I think that's what we've seen with our development with our content thus far are is that because we provide this really strong set of default sort of mimic even like real world behavior of stuff. You know real physics real character. Actions animations that mimics sort of anthropomorphic expectations and stuff like that that they're able to interrelate much more quickly Liam spend a lot less time building experience on our platform than it would take them to build that same experience on most of the other game. Id's that are available in the industry. History there are many facets of the engineering that will get into because roadblocks is fourteen fourteen years old and over fourteen years. There's lots of ornate architecture all decisions that I'm sure have been made and lots of interesting pieces of innovation that we can touch on. I want to continue with a bit of a top down exploration for what this product is. Because I I know that there are a lot of people that are on. I was unfamiliar with it when I started digging into it. But I understand now that this is one of those ecosystems that maybe under the radar for a Lotta people but has a gigantic following. I mean there's a lot of the Internet enables these kinds of amazing gigantic GEICO systems. Can you give me a brief history. For how the product has developed over time. Yeah absolutely so I. If any of your who listens listeners. Haven't heard of roadblocks. I would encourage them to either. Go Talk to the closest twelve year old that they have in their in their life or or go talk to any parents they know of kids net like nine to thirteen year old age demographic and ask them about roadblocks you will get a outpouring pouring of emotion from anybody Either of those demographics if you're in that nine to twelve year old age demographic the odds are in the United States as today. It's better odds that you do play robots than that you. Don't we have over. Fifty percent market penetration that age demographic and it is a huge phenomenon. Yeah so more than fifty percent of the twelve year. Old population plays roadblocks in the United States and other English speaking countries today. Yes Okay Nice staff so going back to the history yeah so our our CEO founder and CEO. Dave Basuki. We started the company with one of his close friends. Eric Castle like you said fourteen years ago so two thousand six day first released our development development environment roadblocks studio two years later it was sort of a almost like a demo at that time but the concept up from day one has always been really consistent that the idea is that we are building ways for people people to do online three co experience with their friends. The initial idea to found the company Really came out of Dave's previous company which was a two D physics simulation tool for the educational space basically allowing like kids to do their physics his experiments not in a real life lab but on a computer this is like back in like the the Macintosh one kind of days so they built this platform that let kids you know. Sort of attach blocks that had masses smash them together in to do these like physics experiments. To see you know sort of what would happen from Newtonian perspective. A big block in a little box Fox block with momentum that kind of stuff and they created this curriculum and and the company got acquired for a nice little exit but what they noticed while building that is it wants. The curriculum was over. Once the kids were done with the official experiment class. They would sit there like build cars and then crashed them together. Or they make these little like short little obstacle courses that you had to navigate your car around. There are basically using this physics simulation software as a gaming environment and they thought That's really interesting. And they decided after exiting that company to start a company. Those explicitly focused on building building a user generated content gaming platform. So like I said. They founded the company in two thousand four. Two thousand six. They released robuck studio studio which was the first time people could really build three D multiplayer experiences that were online and hosted for them. The company from that point for the next like eight to nine years grew grew relatively slowly until appoint in in late twenty fifteen when something something changed and we have a lot of conversations internally about what that thing was in the answer is it wasn't just a single bill. Who is a confluence of different factors? But all of a sudden the companies went from growing relatively slowly. You know twenty five percent year over year or something like that to growing at over one hundred percent year over year and just completely blew up and we've really continued that growth trajectory ever since late. Twenty fifteen early twenty sixteen sixteen to the point now where we have over a hundred million monthly active users and it. It's really been a wonderful sort of Silicon Valley Ali Growth Story where that hockey stick actually happened and seems to be continuing to happen even to this day. Okay so I know that a product act like this basically if you look at any angle of the software is going to be some interesting stuff we could discuss discuss. I've done a few shows on gaming one thing that seems to be characteristically. Interesting in in these shows about gaming is networking and what I mean by. That is when you've got a massively multiplayer. Online game like like a roadblocks. You've got these people that are independently exploring a three D. environment as a character. That's running running around so you've got you've got like a camera that's positioned kind of behind the character the characters like a three D. model running through space and and so that's that's your perception and in reality. The perception is like okay. You've got the whole world on your phone or you know on your your your PC. But of course this world is like so gigantic that there's no way it makes sense to load the entire world onto your a computer and continuously sync it with the server so in reality. You've in many of these memos these massively multiplayer online games you've got got a gigantic world that is hosted on a server and it's periodically sinking with each client plant and giving the client enough world to explore on their client device and this creates a very interesting networking problem. Because you have to ask. What are we passing in those packets between the back end in the front end? What are we giving to the client? What does the client? What is the minimum amount of information that the client needs to render on their device and is their path to graceful degradation if the client is on a mobile device on a spotty cellular network? Can we give them a good experience. Can we pass them enough. Data from the back can so I guess I'd like to just explore the networking challenges of building an M. O.. That is available across us all the platforms whether you're on an xbox or an iphone on a T.. One connection or cellular connection tell me about the networking. Yeah so first of all. That's a great tea up to the problem though I would take it. One step further and say that most memo's his benefit from being billed by US sort of vertically integrated studio where the same company that's building the network infrastructure to support support. The game is also building the actual content of the game. So you know you can have the level designer sitting down with the networking engineering sort of making decisions. On trade offs between whether the networking infrastructure can support the crazy number of triangles. That he wants in the volcano Hainault. Or whatever right robots is user generated content platform we have zero control over the content that our community is building. And so we have to actually actually do the Much harder thing which is to solve the general case and build a system that basically opens up as much capability capability for the game developer as possible across all of the devices that we support so the first question is what front end client devices. Do we support As of today we support IOS devices all the way down to the iphone four s which is at least by modern standards ancient in its CPU view GPS capabilities etc on obviously to support the xbox one. We support P. C. N. android down to. I don't remember the the minimum supported version of android right now. But it's essentially the equivalent of four us on the west side so the big differentiator for roadblocks. When it comes is to this type of networking is our game engine? We have a fully proprietary custom in house game engine that we have built from the ground up explicitly to do multiplayer online. Quote Unquote Streamed Three D. experiences. variances where you have some geometry and rendering done locally on the device but you have the exact same version of the game engine running on the game server and supporting all of the simultaneously connected clients. So there's a source of truth on the Game Gaiman on the server running our seedless game engine and then we have obviously a robust networking layer that arbitrates. What aspects of of the game world are going to be passed off to the client in terms of ownership for physics simulation? Obviously the vast majority of rendering happens on the client it and that's all sort of the optimization that are game engine was built with from the ground up for from day one and it's it's really from that perspective the the only three D game engine on the market that was built with this as its primary or sole use case even when you compare it to unreal or unity both of those were even in their current conception built to have the vast majority of the triangles they're rendering downloaded a large. DLC or whatever when you first download the game. Roadblocks is very different in that all of our geometry. The tree is streamed from the game engine from the moment that you actually join a game server. None of that is local to your device prior to joining any of our individual experiences and as a result the game engine is actually optimized for not just passing up and down ownership but also passing down the specific geometry of the world that the developer has is create. 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Call your tools should make the experience as good as possible and these tools include comfortable comfortable t shirt if you visit victor ops dot com slash se daily and. Try Out Victor. You can get that comfortable. T shirt Viktorov drops integrates with all of Your Services Slack Spunk Cloud Watch data dog new relic and over time. Victor OPS improves and delivers. There's more value to you through machine learning. If you want to hear about how Victor ops works. You can listen to our episode with Chris. Riley Victor ops is a collaborative incident incident response tool. And you learn more about it as well as get a free t shirt when you check it out at victor ops dot com slash se daily. Thanks for listening. And thanks to victor ops for being sponsor a game like roablocks. This has something called a physics engine and a physics engine essentially outlines the rules of the physics of the game. If if my character jumps how does gravity interact with that character. Is You know. Is it like the real world. Where it's you know? Nine point nate meters per second squared. Or whatever or is it is it like you and you can double jump for something you know exactly. Excellent is the physics engine. Something that is simple enough that you can keep entirely on a client device. Or is that something where it's like. You have to make a round trip up to make physics decisions so the physics engine itself is definitely something that could be kept on the device but you actually run into the networking in ownership problems. That we were just talking about right. If if you imagine a game like grand theft auto where you can be driving a car are and I can be driving a car and we crash them together right if you assume that there will be some round trip time from my client to the server and from your client to the server from my perspective rendering in real time on my device if you make a last minute adjustment right before our two cars crash rush. I'm GonNa not see that because that last minute adjustment didn't make it to my device by the time my last minute input push got sent up to the server at a new sink of of the real time. Geometry locations came back down from the server to my device. Answer you might see a different different car crash that I would see on my client so really one of the core competencies of a game engine like what we've built it. Roadblocks is how you arbitrate ownership of physics. And frankly how you do some predictive modeling of even things down to user input to try. Try to come up with the best. Guess of how these multi player. Physical interactions are actually going to work in the game space. Do you WanNa make it something. Where all physics is owned by the game server and so you know you have a completely level playing field but a lot of the input and controls than are gonNA feel super laggy because in order to see the result of an input you have to take the input on the device? S- ended up to the to the game server which is obviously some hundreds of miles away from you and in almost the best case scenario and then send that you have that determine what happened from a physics standpoint and send the results back down for rendering locally on the device this or do you want to have the no lag option where you're actually have direct control and rendering of your car or whatever it is locally on your device vice but where the reality in your game client can as a result diverge from the reality on the game server and consequently from the reality on another players local client device because all of its having to be arbitrated in sinked back out of real time from what you're seeing being rendered on your screen in in robotics. We have a really complex set of code. That basically says well if there's no other players near you obviously we can have physics owned locally ugly on your Client N. as other players in other dynamic interactions come closer and closer to you this essentially physics ownership code base kicks in and tries to determine the optimal placement of stuff either in the cloud or on your local client and which version of the world takes precedence. That's crazy I mean. This is the kind of thing I was. Why like talking to people about the gaming the gaming business do you have these guys that crazy problems the a fourteen year trajectory? What's interesting about a fourteen year? Trajectory is that takes you back to pre cloud days. There was a show we did within two it. It fairly recently and into it made this crossing the chasm on Prem to the cloud and this is pretty interesting area of debate or architectural decision making because there are many companies that have investments in Colo's or their own on prime infrastructure. And you know they get to a point where we've got the infrastructure it's useful but there's there's these cool cloud services and maybe it would be cheaper if we didn't own any infrastructure and so they have a set of very interesting decisions about should they get rid of their on MM permit for structure. Should they move to the cloud with roadblocks. I assume it's a little bit simpler because the real traction with the product didn't start until like the post cloud era but I am nonetheless. Curious are there uses of of on Prim infrastructure everything entirely cloud. No We so there's actually two aspects to that one is. You're absolutely right that when they started roadblocks the word cloud hadn't really even been coined yet in in fact if you ask the engineers who are at the company at the time we actually have our game server infrastructure internally is referred to as RC. See Roadblocks Fox compute cloud and they swear up and down that the industry had not used the word cloud before they decided to call it that internally. I don't don't know if I believe them. I wasn't here at the time. But if you believe them they think they coined the name cloud which is hilarious in terms of our current infrastructure. There's actually another aspect of it as well. Which is the operating company at our scale? We are now having to make decisions about not just whether weather or not as effective to move stuff out of our legacy on prem data center in Chicago into the cloud but also at this point our scale justifies building out our own global essentially private cloud infrastructure. So one of the big investments that we've made at the company over the last two years is is literally acquiring acquiring our own global fiber network standing up a a series of. I think we're at sixteen or seventeen edge termination pops around the world and running all of data between our own fully owns data centers in Chicago and Ashburn Virginia over our own private fiber infrastructure infrastructure to those edge termination nodes so from our perspective. Our the way we think about this is if you're a sort of full stack application engineer building service service. You shouldn't actually care what is what infrastructure that service is being hosted on there should be an abstraction layer that says hey I just need to host the service that needs to be able to serve you know X. amount of volume and and and to be able to scale at why why rate up to future volumes and then beneath that abstraction layer there's Microsoft's platform team. That doesn't actually care explicitly. Okay what your service does. They don't care if it's serving the social graph or if it's serving the in purchase functionality or whatever they agency a service that needs hosting with a specific geographic distribution of consumption and specific growth rate with individual certain signals around volume and stuff like that and their job is to place that service on the best possible infrastructure for structure whether that's public cloud infrastructure our own bare metal for cost reasons or our legacy data center. Because it's it's part of one of our like you know sort of legacy model lists that haven't been upgraded to the latest stack yet so from our perspective basically try to have a team whose sole mission in is making optimal decisions around what infrastructure is best to host individual services into abstract that away from the the work that in actual application engineer would need to do to optimize that the resultant user experience does that make sense. Yes so speaking of services. I assume that for many years roablocks had a monolithic code base. Because you know I think uh over the course of fourteen years there has been this increased promotion of the of the breaking up of monolith into domain specific services services or service oriented architecture or micro services architecture or whatever the term does your is so that probably happened. You know that. Kind of breaking up of the monolith or addendums to the monolith that probably start happening before you joined the company three three years ago. Can you just tell me the the rough picture of the architecture today. There's some central monolith and then some other services or is it. Is it like a lot of just a flat services architecture so in an interesting way this kind of goes back to a core roadblocks engineering principle which is sort of set your north star in terms of with the the way you want to solve a certain class of engineering problems and then sort of make sure that any near-term firm engineering technology choice that you make moves your stack towards that long-term Northstar so essentially is another way of saying make make sure you're doing the engineering investment necessary to avoid any sort of unnecessary technical debt. This is a core roadblocks engineering principle. Something we think about. Every day as it relates to architecture vis-a-vis like model. It said micro services we still do have a core four of Monolithic code base that powers. Some percentage of the roadblocks dub dub dub website and associated services the The reason that still exists is that it has proven capable more or less of serving the the fifty to one hundred x traffic that increase that is experienced over the last three to four years. As we've we've gone through this crazy exponential exponential growth curve varies an internal mandate today and has been for for years. Now where if you're doing significant modification to existing existing services. You should simultaneously do the work that's necessary to break them out of the monolith and stand them up. As a containerized micro service independently scalable manage dependencies et Cetera. And so that we have like internal tracking sheets that show the migration of core services out of the monolithic into these independently hosted micro services that now are significant majority of our backend infrastructure after. But there's not a abstract internal mandate that says. Hey stop all product work until the monolith is dead and basically draws back to the idea idea that when that Monolithic code base was created. Yes it was a monolith but it was also created with a ton of attention paid to scale ability. The end of future magnitude of demand concerns in. It's actually even to this day operating relatively wealth from a scale ability standpoint. The only part of it. That's actually a really major negative drain on internal resources that at our current scale of headcount in the engineering department having everybody iterating on the same model at the code base can be kind of painful at the release schedule becomes a little bit harder to manage and stuff like that and so we think. Moving microscopes actually unblocks individual teams allows them to sort of control their own destiny in terms of shipping their own services and not have to wait for the daily monolith release to get their code out into user's hands. Give me some general perspective for where you're at in in terms of assessing technical debt and resolving technical debt versus building out new features. Yeah so oh you know what I often say to engineers. That I'm interviewing. Is that for fourteen year old company the amount of technical debt. We have is astonishingly low. While uh-huh I also say that with a grain of salt because I've never seen the code base of any other fourteen year old company in my career so it's easy for that. By the roadblocks again the robots operating principle from an engineering perspective is look were a platform. Were very unique in the game industry in that nothing we are building today. A HASTA ship tomorrow. If you're at a traditional vertically integrated game studio you know you have your content line in your game has to be done by by October first so it can be cut onto optical disc so it can be on store shelves by November. I you can make the holiday season or whatever and so the entire development exercises exercise is is basically like nine months of trying to figure out what you can actually get into this release killing yourself through time for eighty hour weeks or whatever whatever for those nine months to get every last line of code you possibly can in by that deadline and then you're done and people go and take a vacation or if the game's not successful they get laid off or whatever until they sign up again in two or three months later to do it all for the for the next year's release rohbock totally different. Everyone on my team could go on vacation nation for six months and some seventeen year old in Dubuque Iowa would still release a new title tomorrow. That is marginally better at retaining users or marginally better at monetize a user's and as a company we would still hit every single one of our user acquisition short-term user acquisition and modernization goals. Even if the big thing that my group is working on doesn't ship this quarter the right so dramatically more important for us to build the thing writing than it is for us to build it on any arbitrary timelines time-line and internally it's it's frankly celebrated if somebody's working on a project and they come up with a an implementation that's twice as good headbutt takes twice as long. That's always something we want to see. Is People taking the time to build things the right way in a way that avoids technic unnecessary technical debt and gets the product out. We still want to do that in iterative culture and we don't want to you know decide to make a big bet. Spent three years has has down no product feedback just building the thing just flip a switch and see if it works. That's not the way we work. But it does mean what we normally do is set some major aspirational guiding principle. A North Star. THAT WE WANNA work to over the next. Say three to five years and then every near-term sort of iterative rid of choice that we make we evaluate whether the near term implementation or the near term sprint or the near-term test is moving us. Generally towards that North Star guiding principle or away from it. If it's moving us away from it we don't do it. We don't ship it and we won't take that debt but if is moving us toward it we will. What do the most incremental solution we can that still validates? Our long-term assumption does that make sense as a result is is actually again like you could consider instead of our existing monolith as technical debt. I frankly don't I say it's actually a marvel that a significant amount of code base that was written five to ten years ago is serving a hundred to two hundred x the traffic that we had at the time that code was written. I don't think that's technical data. It doesn't mean it can't be significantly improved and we're doing that every day but it is an example of the amount of forethought and disciplined. That was used when that code base was was originally created. And it's something that we try to carry it through to everything that we're doing today. What are the programming languages that use at roadblocks? And do you have rules around what programming languages developers can use as a great question especially for my group so at a really high level will that the proprietary game engine that I mentioned is is predominantly C. plus plus. I don't think any surprise there are web stack. The monolith is a dot net. Had you know sort of Microsoft stack though. We now have a Microsoft's architecture that gives developers a pretty broad mandate to choose the best language that they think think is applicable to their individual problem that they're trying to solve so we have code hosted in in go or python or a whole bunch of other sort of languages. which is your on? The application side are tech stack is extremely interesting in non traditional so you know for most mobile applications especially cross platform applications. You have this sort of devils choice to make. Do you want to build your the application logic you I in the native language for each platform which generally means you get best in class results us at the cost of having to re implement each feature at least once for every platform that you support so for us that's at least IOS android a pc Mac and xbox and VR. If not different implementations for both IPHONES IPADS or do you want to use some sort of have cross platform code base historically embedded web views more recently react native or something like that where you get the benefit of only having to write each feature a single taivon having it shipped everywhere but the result. Kinda sucks roablocks chose Third Door. That's really unique to us. It struck us that the very first thing we do when we port roadblocks to a new platform is integrate our proprietary in House C. Thus whilst game engine at the lowest level graphics. API's that are available to us so yet metal on IOS Vulcan on android open jail wherever awesome Cetera in our game engine itself has to D- Ui rendering capabilities. But also our application infrastructure the stuff that users navigate navigate to play the Games before they actually join a game server and stuff where they choose a game to play or curate their social networker chat with friends or by robots are digital currency Consi. All of that is both Tutti but with a huge smattering of Three D. Elements your your actual avatar itself. The way you decorate your Avatar within the the Avatar editor in equipment Three items and all that kind of stuff and so we came up with this idea of saying what if we actually used our game. Engine engine to render our player facing APP. The thing that a normal game soon he would call the APP Shell and we've taken the last two and a half years to basically migrate from our previous mobile infrastructure which is a mix of native and embedded web views to now when you download roadblocks wchs and open it from your home's green on your iphone everything you interact with after the splash screen is actually a AH roadblocks a game scripted in Lua. which is the coding The sandbox that resurface to roadblocks developers and rendered heard by our proprietary game at the benefits of this have been huge. Because any time in doing this that we found the performance of our game engine wasn't up to our standards standards for making a first class social mobile experience we were able to go into the underlying C.. Plus plus game engine in fixed. It's Tutti Eh rendering capabilities so we made our scrolling frames dramatically more performance. We fixed a whole bunch of stuff in terms of how we manage our data models and all that kind of stuffed dog food aspect of this was huge but at the same time we get to build a feature a single time and have it shipped to literally every single platform warm that we support and the result in product is in the vast majority of the time indistinguishable from something that was built using that devices native. Ui Libraries it's it's been pretty phenomenally successful for us and I think is really unique in the industry. I think when we didn't have you with Google Google Earth. They had done something kind of of that. Yeah so that's that's exactly right. We've heard of a couple of other companies that have been in a similar space where they had some sort of proprietary in house client rendering capabilities and decided to sort of dog food for their own purposes is again for us. The results have been fantastic. It's just you have to go through the hard work of building those clients capabilities which it roadblocks is like a five year effort for it to create our proprietary in house game edge as businesses become more integrated with their software than ever before it has become possible to understand the business more clearly. Through through monitoring logging end advanced data visibility. Sumo logic is a continuous intelligence platform that builds tools for operations security and cloud native infrastructure. The company has studied thousands of businesses to get an understanding of modern continuous intelligence and then and compile that information into the continuous intelligence report which is available at software engineering daily Dot Com slash sumo logic. The sumo logic continuous intelligence report contains statistics about the modern world of infrastructure. Here are some statistics. I found particularly a useful. Sixty four percent of the businesses in the survey were entirely on Amazon web services which was vastly more than any other cloud provider or multi cloud or on prem deployment. That's a lot of infrastructure. Aws another factoid. I found and was that a typical enterprise uses fifteen. Aws Services and one in three enterprises uses aws. Lambda appears here's server. Lewis is catching on. There are lots of other fascinating. Statistics in the continuous intelligence report including information on database adoption in Coober Netease and web server popularity go to software engineering daily dot com slash sumo logic and download the continuous intelligence report today. Thank you to sumo logic for being a sponsor of software engineering daily in your vp of engineering right correct. So your Howard. The engineering teams within roablocks arranged. And how do they interact with each other. So roadblocks is a very flat organization. We have just from a size perspective. We have about just just less than six hundred total employees about eighty percent of that product in engineering. So we're incredibly heavy on on engineering especially and essentially there are. We are arranged as collection of over thirty relatively autonomous autonomous full stack teams that have some full stack product ownership over a certain feature set within the roadblocks offering so I currently oversees about five of these teams in. My team's purview is is on the robots application side. The stuff we we're just talking about basically you divide all of roadblocks software into the bucket of stuff that helps seventeen year olds. Build awesome three three D multiplayer online experiences teams. Do any of that if you the other half is stuff that let's random people from the Internet come in experience. Those awesome awesome three D multiplayer online games with their friends. My team does a lot of that. And basically owns the entire user experience from downloading a a binary onto their device to actually joining a specific game servers selecting inexperienced actually joining a game server for that game in getting dropped into survey. UGC environment so what that means. Is that the these you know. Five teams that reports me. There's a social team. A game discovery team sort of owns owns the roadblocks your equivalent of the steam game store or whatever. There's a what we call a universal APP team that owns the infrastructure and architecture behind signed this Lua application where we're dogged shooting our own game rendering capabilities to build the APP itself and all of those teams have you you know. At least a director level product leader director level engineering leader their own roadmap of our backlog of features features that they own and that they're maintaining looking to build in the future and they're basically looked at as a sort of micro startup or a small autonomous company within the larger roadblocks construct. So they'll have their own status reports with our CEO who also is the ultimate sort of product visionary. Mary for the company and they're in complete autonomous control over what they do on a daily basis how they hire people into that team what their prioritization nation is they have to justify their decisions to their stakeholders but apart from that it sort of showed Iran and the way we think about scaling the company moving into the future is we like these autonomous teams of ten to thirty engineers and associated products designers data scientists etc.. So we'd we'd like to see the number of these teams proliferate as they themselves in their size. Stay about the same. I mean that's sort of waving operating throughout the last eighteen months in his working. Really well for us. I'd like to give the listeners. A little bit of a picture for how the the roablocks game economy economy functions. I realized that's not the you know the area that you spend the most time in but can you just give me an outline outline of how the roadblocks economy works and what sorts of engineering problems that economic engine creates eight. Yeah it's it's actually fascinating. So the Roadblocks as we've talked this user generated content platform for and the fundamental idea. Is that people around the world. Come to roadblocks use our tools to build these three D multiplayer online experiences as they host those experiences on our infrastructure they distribute them to our user base and we give them all of the tools rules hosting in infrastructure. They need to do that for free. What they're able to do is sell digital assets within those experiences experiences and those digital assets the whether it's a skin for a character or whether it's a access to VIP area area within a game you know you get sort of the entire ecosystem of sort of premium monetization mechanisms that exist in the gaming industry at large? And you'll see some version regime that unroll blocks today when they sell. Something on our platform Our players purchase it with our digital currency which we call robots robots is obviously purchased with real currency hard currency from wherever the player is coming from around the world of the United States. They're buying robots with US dollars and developers Who Sell these digital assets within their game can actually cash out there robots and earn? US dollars back so so the top game developers on our platform are earning over a million dollars a year from the game experiences that they're building on the the platform itself in. It's it's a fulltime job Easily a fulltime job very lucrative fulltime job for them to build and maintain these top quality experiences the exchange exchange rate that they take that robots in cash it out for is called the Called the process of exchanging robots for US dollars that basically exchange rate basically is how we pay our bills and become profitable so there's a different exchange rate for buying robots from cashing it out but inherent in that is essentially they're quote unquote APP store fee so instead of paying thirty percent to apple for just the privilege of listing listing your mobile game in their act store and having users download it. They pay a slightly higher percentage but have literally zero other costs other than their time time to develop their game for publishing on roadblocks and as playable across basically every gaming platform in existence again. IOS ANDROID PC MAC xbox CETERA. You're given your front row. Seat to the development of the roadblocks economy. And how how the software is advancing and. I'm sure you have a lens. Into how other aspects of the game economy or developing twitch and minecraft and. What not all these other verticals? You just see up into the right growth. I think I saw some stat about like take the proportion of people who watch video games versus the p the proportion of people who watch sports and it's something like ten acts of five ex-soviet so he absurd that most people wouldn't expect but gaming is not going to stay the same as it is today and it's definitely not going to shrink so at that certainly leaves only one alternative outcome. How is gaming going to evolve over? The next decade is a great question. First of all if I knew the exact answer to that I'd be doing something else for a living other than just building software but if I look at the sort of trends that exist in the industry right now there a few things. That seem really clear. If you look at what's happening across the industry it going back to your network and questions about where the actual computation for the experiences happening. Twenty years ago it was one hundred percent on your computer. Senator or your console or your device and the trend has clearly bad over the last fifteen twenty years pushing those computations means to somebody else's computer up in the cloud When you see things announced like Google Stadia or any of the other competing platforms words that are being announced by other large companies in the gaming space it seems clear that some semblance of game streaming that enables is players to access triple a quality content regardless of the local processing power of their device is is a a big part of that future? This thing. That's been part of roadblocks vision for again literally twelve to fourteen years at this point. The idea that we need an architecture that basically produces a best possible experience for every player regardless of the actual will client side hardware. That's running that experience Our approach is pretty significantly different. From what the pure streaming entranced prince recent entrance into the market. do where Google is basically taking your user input sending all of that up to the cloud doing all of the rendering on the cloud and then streaming basically video back down to your device. It's nice because it makes all of those really hard things around physics ownership in rendering all that kind of this stuff really easy you just do it all on the game server. It's hard because it places big constraints on the size of the pipe that you have to send stuff up in San on stuff down and you had inherent lag on your user input because it's not being processed locally at your fingertips is being processed hundreds to thousands thousands of miles away on somebody else's computer so that's sort of a trend that I think will continue. But I think the the implementations that we see in that space will become significantly really more complex than what we're seeing from from a bunch of the new entrance in the space today when we take a step even further back and look at the trends in the industry. The big big question is how far in. How soon do we get to full immersion right? Four years ago everyone was like oh my gosh it's finally time for VR and four years later it seems pretty clear that VR is still an A. R. as well it is a wonderful tech demo. That for a bunch of different reasons has not had its mainstream moment yet when I was hired at roadblocks three years ago so it was to lead a small. VR team we don't have a VR team today men largely because the player based just hasn't materialized serialised yet. There's not enough people with compatible devices to justify US having full time engineering staff dedicated to support of that as is a platform even though our game engine is capable of doing it and the you know we're we're actually actively available on both Oculus Jalousie and five platforms. So I think when roadblocks thinks about the future of immersive experience were pretty confident that at some point in the future it could be three to twenty years away there will be this idea of fully immerses online digital co experience where you are in using a bunch of different digital tools to consume a alternate reality with your friends. It's the sort of ready player one multi-diverse or whatever you WANNA call it. That's definitely what we feel like. We are building and is really a question. One of when will consumer adoption of the hardware catch up to the digital platform that were creating. The great news is unlike a lot of mother startups in the space we don't have any need for Vr to take off to be successful where we're growing incredibly fast on to consumption of devices. His today were already sort of very very profitable and Doing very well with the current technology infrastructure this distributed around the globe. But we also think we're fully ready for a future where three D. consumption of these. Same experiences predominates user experience clouds. Thank you so much commotion. I'm not sure it's been really fun talking absolutely I really enjoyed it. Thanks for having me. The better dot com is a software startup with the goal of reinventing the mortgage industry mortgages his are a thirteen trillion dollar industry. That still operates. As if the Internet doesn't exist and better dot com is looking for engineers to join the team and build a better mortgage experience. The engineers at better dot com are attacking this industry by bringing a startup approach into an industry filled with legacy incumbents better dot com automates the very complex process of getting a mortgage by bringing it online and removing the traditional commission structure sure which means that consumers can get a mortgage faster easier and end up paying substantially less better dot com has a modern and software stack consisting of no J. 's python react type script coober netease and aws the interim quickly and ship code to production auction fifty to one hundred times every day. BETTER DOT COM is one of the fastest growing startups in New York and has just announced a series see that brings the total funding to two hundred and fifty four million dollars. If you're interested in joining a growing team checkout better dot com slash. 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The Electric Rivian Rises, Why Does Wall Street Hate Ford And More
"Yeah there's a lot of news happening around one of Detroit's biggest industries autos so on today's show we'll talk about developments at Ribian and and how Wall Street doesn't like Ford then we'll touch on a couple of other stories. Another local brewery has been bought by out of state owner and there's a new Detroit director her at Knightfoundation. This is your daily Detroit for Tuesday September Tenth Twenty Nineteen. I'm Jay Baer stays and I'm spend Gustafsen. It's a jam packed. Show uh-huh brought to you in part by people like you at Patriotair. Dot Com slash daily Detroit and Lawrence Technological University so let's get to it span. We've been following Ribian for awhile and well. There's yet more news for this up and coming electric vehicles startup based right here out of Plymouth. Another big investment was announced today way to set the table case people. Don't know remind us. I who is for those who who need a refresher. Ribian is an electric vehicle. We'll company. They're technically been around for a while about ten years. they started in Florida but for all intents and purposes they had their coming out party late last year at the Los Angeles Auto. Show and that was basically the first that anybody had seen the cars that they have been working on. All this time in there are two with them. There's the are won t which is a pickup truck and there's an R. One S SUV and these are for all intents and purposes like performance vehicles. They broke they boast sort of eye-popping specs you know in terms of driving range four hundred miles on a driving range. That's that's better than just about out any for their SORTA highest variance zero to sixty times in three seconds. They've got like torque factoring which means you can direct power to individual wheels when you're taking him off road and everything so they're really geared toward kind of a high end well-heeled outdoors enthusiast Jerry. You've seen these cars to their very eye catching the. I just love how they were laid out I'm not a big pickup truck guy but I love the tunnel in their the the thoughtfulness with the tailgate. They're just a variety of things like Oh. That's Kinda cool like they just thought of things. I've always wished I had this in a car but I didn't know I need it. In writing the interiors are like jam packed with USB Ports Perfect for today's as connected passengers right yeah so the latest. They're getting this three hundred fifty million dollar equity investment from Cox Automotive. So who are they because I'll be honest. I I am not familiar. Cox Automotive is a big name in the auto industry they're part of a big conglomerate based in Atlanta it also has like media divisions they have cable TV service and then there are automotive division which is probably best known for brands including like Kelley Blue Book on an auto trader. They also offer like a lot of software like market intelligence and other things that auto dealerships rely on and so they're they're a big player. That's fascinating to me that something that own something like auto trader and Kelley Blue Book would actually invest in a car company Johnny. Why are they doing. This cock says that advancements in battery technology an electric vehicle fleets are two of its like prime areas of focus nowadays days so you know they're basically going after what is kind of like you know fast becoming the the buzzed about electric vehicle company in the world like even more so than Tesla they also have they also have a major initiative on dealing with environmental sustainability and they say that this investment aligns with that ah all right so what's in it for Rivi and they get out of this deal well of course they're getting three hundred fifty million dollars in cash that they can use for product development and getting getting ready to launch manufacturing of the two vehicles which are supposed to arrive late in two thousand twenty because you still can't buy their vehicles right. That's correct. I mean they're taking eating deposits now but there are none of these driving out in the roads in the hands of consumers anyways but interestingly Ribian has said that it doesn't plan to go the route of traditional national automakers which is to say you know you you established franchise locations in you know anybody you could you could have jair stays ribian dealership on on Telegraph Telegraph Road Right. They don't want to go that route instead. They WANNA do the direct to consumer sales model sort of like Tesla. How's that GONNA fly because aren't there a lot of legal problems problems with that especially in states like Michigan well yeah I mean as current state law in Michigan holds and in many other states riven would not be able to launch a Arabian store here like unless they let jair stays you know open up Ribian dealership but let me also read you this quote in the statement from Riviera and CEO JOE RJ grinch. He said that they're excited to work with Cox automotive quote in delivering a consistent consumer experience across our various touch points Cox automotive global global footprint service and logistics capabilities and retail technology platform make them a great partner for us so this is really them kind of trying to build out you know their the retail side which we haven't previously heard a whole lot about from Irvine and that's really interesting in fact some of the concepts that we saw as far as like what a Ribian store you're could be like pie in the sky nothing exact but it was really really interesting like Patagonia catalog frankly so this is not this is just one part of what's been ah parade of investment right. Yes it's been a good year for riven. I guess you could say in April Ford announced. It was investing half a billion dollars. That's five hundred million phrased other otherwise Amazon early in the year announced that it was leading a seven hundred million dollar round of financing in Arabian these two those two investments are a little bit different in nature from the Cox Investment on both Ford and Amazon looking to gain access to Ribian what Rabin calls. It's skateboard platform. This is the electric vehicle platform which host which holds the drive train the battery pack the Electric Motors and so forth and it's flexible so other companies and it has always been ribbons intention to a license that skateboard technology to other companies for them to use so oh for companies like Ford they can use it to develop new electric vehicles new new electric pickup trucks are SUV's whatever they WANNA do. An Amazon reportedly has been developing a a prototype delivery vehicle. Now you can imagine a company with the global region scale of Amazon operating fleets of its own electric battery powered electric trucks think about the money they could save on fuel. Well not just fuel but I remember seeing a report recently about the idea that there's going to be huge changes in the auto industry in general if you've got one unified platform 'cause think about it. You don't need to Bolton engine together a bunch of other parts that don't need to be made and so there's a Lotta frankly workers that would be needed right. Well the these are this. Rivi accompanied Caribbean with the skateboard technology represents a potential huge savings for companies like like Ford because they've got this flexible Platform Electric Vehicle Platform. That Ford doesn't need to worry about building. It's a it's a huge huge cost expenditure. That suddenly is now taking care of all. Ford needs to do now is design. You know the the body of a car around it right so with the Cox Automotive Investment announced today. Ribian has cumulatively secured north of one point five billion dollars from pretty well established known companies in two thousand nineteen alone. I mentioned this has been in a good year for them. Right and per the Wall Street Journal the today's investment by Cox Values the company at three point five billion dollars all well you know a year plus out from them actually building their first vehicles and releasing it to the market speaking of Ford Moody's Investors Service has has downgraded the company's credit rating to junk status a move that could make it harder and more expensive for Ford to borrow money in an industry downturn that could become a problem if slowing in global auto sales continue and afford needs more money to carry out its restructuring activities. Moody's cited Ford's problems in overseas markets like China and Europe and said its profit margins and cash flow were both below expectations but it said Ford's outlook was stable and noted its cash on hand. Its its debt. Ford finished the second quarter with with more than twenty three billion dollars in cash and thirty seven billion in liquidity. Ford is in the middle of a twenty five billion dollar global restructuring in a statement it said it remains anes confident in its plan and progress quote our underlying businesses strong our balance sheet is solid and we have plenty of liquidity to invest in R. Compelling Strategy for the future feature so San didn't four just join up with Volkswagen on some kind of partnership recently they did indeed it started early in the year when they made it official Joel I think at the Detroit auto show they were going to partner together on the development of commercial vehicles using fords transit connect platform. It's has since expanded to electric vehicles with Ford gaining access to Volkswagen's M. E. B. Platform and other flexible electric flexible electric vehicle a platform now Volkswagen's also going to invest in Argo. Ai That's the the company that develops self driving vehicles that Ford has been I an owner of and the Ford and VW we're going to become equal and majority investors in that company but Moody's said it didn't expect that partnership to yield any significant financial results for a few years yet so their color them not impressed. I guess this has just been going on and on for a while that Wall Street has just not been impressed with Ford and and it's not enough that Ford has a war chest bind it yeah I think there's a lot of confusion over where the company's going and sort of how it plans to make money from from some of these you know mobility self driving cars and everything else that they're talking about and Ford still hasn't really they still haven't debuted a full battery electric trick car that might help I mean they've got some in the works. We know that but they have yet to really come out and show the public what they look like and so we'll let's see if that might help but yeah they've they've been struggling to kind of climb above that ten dollars per share mark on on the Stock Exchange because I know there's another piece of auto news before we move on that you wanted to mention yes so quickly the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. That's the non government group that conducts crash tests well. They've given its coveted top safety pick plus to the Ram fifteen hundred pickup truck and why are we telling you about this well. It's the first time the organization has ever ever bestowed its top designation on a full-sized pickups of think like Ford F one fifty you mentioned rammed it by improving its led headlights with high beam assist on certain models that were built after may of this. You just want to say a word that daily. Detroit is brought to you in part by our our friends at Lawrence. Tech traditional four year students love Lawrence Technological University's thriving campus life but lt has always met nontraditional students needs to Lawrence Tech offers over one hundred degree and certificate programs that can get adult students started are back on track and most classes are conveniently offered evenings at Ltu's beautiful southfield campus or that thing called the Internet online so you can balance your social family and work life even while you power up your career find out more at Lt you dot Edu. We'll have a link in the show notes. Another local brewer has been bought by national firm. This time brew bound reports that Rochester Mills has been grabbed up by California based lighthouse strategies. How much it was so far was not disclosed? Lighthouse produces both cabin veneers and two routes. They're cannabis infused beers with Rochester Mills. forty-six Thousand Square Foot facility reports say that it gives to roots strong beachhead and to expand the two routes brand into the mid West East Coast and Canada. No cannabis infused beers produced in Michigan though to roots will be made in the bulk and then shipped to licensed cannabis manufacturers to infuse themselves. This is an interesting developments fan. We're seeing more of these like local. Breweries getting snapped up yeah this this comes on the heels of the news about founders selling. I think ninety percent of the stake to the Spanish conglomerate whose name escapes me but yeah I mean. This is really interesting. This is coming right on the kind of heels of the cannabis. I mean recreational. Marijuana is already legal here but it's really going to. I think that the end of this year engine is not started exactly from now until the end of this year. I think we're really going to start seeing businesses open which was all sort of according to plan. I know I live in Ferndale N'dale. There are a whole bunch of dispensaries and other businesses that are getting set to open up in Ferndale. I heard about the opening of that giant gauge cannabis abyss company. It's a warehouse and retail shopping. It's huge driving by at the other day. Yeah interesting move here for Rochester Mills I don't thank you know we've talked in previous episodes all about the challenging path that independent craft brewers face especially around distribution. I don't see a lot of Rochester Mills and stores. I mean I mentioned that I I don't think I've ever had their beers. Frankly you know in their hometown brewery so we'll see what this does for them interesting interesting for them to tie up with this company known for Cannabis Infused Beers which frankly I barely knew as a thing. I'm not surprised to hear it but I haven't tried any Arab certainly seen any here in Michigan again. Not surprisingly the knightfoundation one of Detroit's more important foundations put more than one hundred million dollars into Detroit projects since two thousand eight and twenty million dollars into the arts last year today the Miami based nonprofit named Nathaniel Wallace as its new program director here in Detroit Wallace has more than two decades of business and management experience. He's a longtime supporter of Detroit's arts and cultural scene and especially especially of artists of color while this is president of the Detroit Institute of Arts Founders Junior Counsel Board. He's also on the Board of Artworks Fred McLeod a whole name too many sports fans from Detroit to Cleveland died suddenly Monday evening at the age of sixty seven the strong Ville Ohio Coburn's sportscaster was about to start his fourteenth consecutive season as play by play announcer for the Cleveland Cavaliers and his fifteenth overall detroiters Fred Best for his twenty two seasons announcing Detroit Pistons Games and for stints as a broadcast announcer for the Detroit Tigers and lions that TV only announcer streak holds the record as the longest just with the same NBA team that TV only announcer streak holds the record as the longest with the same NBA team he also previously hosted sports news on Wd IV local four which is personally where I met him. Fred had thirty six seasons in total of Broadcasting Games. He was a point Park University graduate where he played eight baseball and pitched in the NA college world series. He's won a number of awards and at one point cavaliers owner Dan Gilbert well he was as intern. Fred is survived by his wife. Beth mother Maryland Sister Lynn and his three Children Sean Geno Molly and their families quick note here. I only got to work with him for a very short time but I was is honored to do so and he is mean so much to so many people of a certain generation in Detroit media. He's just been a giant. He was just doing lions preseason. He's in games just a little while ago. I definitely will miss his sports cast. He was talented and one last thing we were getting ready to record this podcast. We got word that the historic Grand Hotel on mackinac island has been sold to a private equity firm the Musser family had owned and operated the nearly four hundred room hotel since the nineteen thirties grand hotel was built in eighteen eighty seven. The buyer is KSL capital partners. They have nine billion dollars in equity commitments in the travel and leisure business. There aren't a whole lot of details known at this time but Jerry I worked for a five live seasons on mackinac island and This is huge news for that island. It's a small tight knit community up there. there are four or five families that own most of everything including the muscles. I mean you know you have to understand. Grant Hotel is the hotel itself. Everybody knows that because you see it you can and you can see it from the mackinac bridge even but they also own a lot of satellite restaurants and other businesses on the island. You know I think they fudged. Stores of the golf course a golf course. This is a huge deal. how it affects things. I mean you and I were talking about the mackinac Policy Conference and which which which the Grand Hotel hosts every year a lot to shake out here but this is. I'm sure this is sending shockwaves across the island right now when I wonder if this is as a turning point for the island it has gotten so popular lately with being on the list and all things like that I mean is it inevitable. That big money comes and kind of like takes takes over. I'm sure that it's been sniffing around and making offers but like I said though there are four or five families up there that have that have held on for decades and I'm sure they've probably you know sort of pushed away a lot of offers in the past so we'll see all right. That'll do it for your daily. Detroit sure to tell a friend about the show and let's push our regions conversation forward together. I'm Gerdts days days and I'm spend Gustafsen. Take care of each other and we'll see you around Detroit.
The Messy Middle with Scott Belsky
"Scott Belsky founded be hands in two thousand six behind his social platform where designers and creators share their work. Scott that was motivated to create be hands duties desire to combine his love for creativity with his desire to start a business. After six years of Work Behan was acquired by adobe for more than one hundred fifty million dollars. Today Scott works as a chief product officer at adobe behind his journey from idea to acquisition Asian is chronicled by Scott in his book the Messy Middle His book chronicles the Difficult Winding Journey that an entrepreneur must take in order to succeed seed and it contains some harrowing stories. Scott has a gritty personality which was required to endure the ups and downs of be hands. Scott joins the show to discuss the story of behinds and the lessons of his life as an entrepreneur. We are hiring a head of growth. If you like software engineering daily in consider yourself competent or excellent in sales and marketing strategy send me an email jeff at software engineering daily. Dot Com as a company grows the software infrastructure it becomes a large complex distributed system without standardized applications or security policies. It can become difficult to oversee all the vulnerabilities abilities that might exist across all of your physical machines virtual machines containers and cloud services. Extra hop is a cloud native security security company that detects threats across your hybrid infrastructure extra hop has vulnerability detection running up and down your networking stack from l two to l seven and it helps you spot investigate and respond to anomalous behavior using more than one hundred machine learning models models at extra hop dot com slash cloud you can learn about how extra hop delivers cloud native network detection and Response Extra Hop. We'll help you find miss configurations and blind spots in your infrastructure and stay in compliance understand your identity and access management payloads coach to look for credential harvesting and brute force attacks and automate the security settings of your cloud provider integrations visit extra hop dot com slash slash cloud to find out how extra hop can help you secure your enterprise. Thank you two extra hops for being sponsor of Software Engineering daily and if you WANNA checkout extra hop and support the show good extra hop dot com slash cloud talk Scott belsky welcome software engineer daily. Thanks for your book. The messy middle is about making it through the middle of a project and this book is partly a memoir. It's partly a strategy book when you were writing the messy middle. How how did you strike the right balance between those two formats while I think that in order for people to really relate to information story stories always helps and I tried to capture as many stories from other founders I worked with or is it. I had been on issues in situations that I had gone through to make some of these insights come alive. The other thing I was trying to emulate with the buck was the tendency among a lot of leaders that yeah I know in of worked with to have quick fifteen minute conversations with each other to just get some different perspective in some actionable advice when tasing a particular challenge that is how I feel like a lot of great leaders operate because they don't have time to spend all day thinking about about something or read tons of bugs or get you know they just have to make decisions those quick ten fifteen minute conversations are typically enriched with a piece of advice ice a story to back it up some practical in may be counterintuitive tips to take with you in just wanted to have a journey guy for every every leader of any bolt project with hundreds of those and that's what the messing metal be hit. You founded be hands described. The middle of hands in the middle of was characteristically messy beyond Swiss bootstrap for five years venture back for two years it started in two thousand six or are so and so we went through dozen eight which was a very difficult time in the economy we had of years we had to rewrite our entire platform re architect architect things over and over again. There are a lot of periods of sideways motion in the journey of billions in retrospect made us into team. We needed needed to be but at the time felt like wasted energy in the funny thing. Is that whenever anyone asks me about the end. It's like Oh yeah down in this company with his bold mission organize the creative world news for five years years acquired by two thousand twelve that McCain this became that it's like in a few sentences it seems like this pithy the story but it says nothing about the actual endurance and optimization that had to occur to keep us alive indeed speaking even durance you had to rebuild behind his technology three times. Yeah I always prescribed to this idea of hiring people based on their initiative as opposed to their experience and I actually feel like if we hired very experienced engineers had built stocks Zack's like we had to build to scale Baharan says a product. I don't know those folks would have ever joined us for stuck around long enough for us to figure it out instead we hire people who are extremely sparse smart but just didn't have a lot of experience doing what we were doing and those folks were very but they had incredible initiative initiative learning the consequence of that strategy is that you oftentimes have to build things again and it happened a number of times where we we we had like a proof of concept of hands. It was live in running in the Mirai or my goodness. This is not scalable. This is not secure is not clinician we can build upon for envision down the road and that resulted in major steps back and otherwise sideways to rectify so those lessons learned the hard way were very enriching for our team brought us together as a as a culture but oh my goodness wasn't messy. You founded in two thousand five in many ways starting. A company has become much easier. A lot of the low hanging fruit route is getting picked but the tools are getting better and new platforms. New Opportunities are opening up. Is it easier or harder to start a company today. I think it's a lot easier to start a business today. A lot of the necessities of a business are now available for one low monthly fee as Saas products you know have the barrier century of having servers and having customer service project to build internally anything you would have had to build internally to get up and running before essentially available as Api and you can piece piece your business together now being said the flip side of that is that there are too many businesses starting in every category. Everything is extraordinarily competitive. The consumer has tons of noise for every decision that they make in the large platforms platforms have made it extraordinarily hard to reach new customers. You have to pay a lot of money to reach new customers. That is where if you don't have to spend money on building your own servers servers and whatever else you have to spend money on acquiring new customers now so there's a there's a flip side to that but for entrepreneurship in innovation it's wonderful because has anyone can have something in their minds. I essentially get something up running easier than ever before it's clear that you're driven by creative live energy and that comes out in the book. You need creative energy to succeed in a business but you also need ruthless ruthless discipline. Was it harder for you to develop the creative side of the discipline side I value both and in my mantra has always he's been extraordinarily optimistic about the future which really fuels creativity and innovation but also be extraordinarily pessimistic nick about the present an paranoid about the presence. I think that those are the energy wells that I feed off of in everything that I do and every meeting. Try to end with that tone omega. Look at what we are positioned to do. Look how amazing this opportunity radio's we can create our ideas are but also whoa like we are behind. You know you're not making it a progress. There are competitors at our heels and I'm not sure you know that we are executing tasks fast enough to be able to pursue this opportunity and I think that sort of message is is what enables a team to do things now. I think leaders are only one or the other and I don't think that works entrepreneurship can be very fun and validating and it's become easier as you said and for many people this can be aw such a more gratifying path than toiling away at a job that they're unhappy with but evangelism evangelism of entrepreneurship can backfire because sometimes people will respond negatively to that evangelism angelism because it can be so discordant with how they are living their lives. What's the best way to evangelize entrepreneurship ownership well. I like to boil things down to primary elements. When it comes to words like entrepreneurship. What does it mean means means having ideas. He has knocking upon them. It means finding better ways of doing things and also new things people never knew they wanted to do in means to me more more than having a passion for problem to solve it means empathy with people suffering the problem and I do think that there's too much entrepreneurship for for the sake of it. If you just want to be independent and have no constraints people responsible to don't be an entrepreneur after starting and leading team is all about being responsible to your team responsible to your customers responsible. You're bored. You have more losses than you may have ever had. It's not an individual's visuals for either so I think that that's a misnomer what entrepreneurship meeting. I think that people need to just center themselves on on on the problem trying to solve in those suffering and then if this pursuit brings you have to build something new as opposed to join another team solving it and that's you know that's a consequence of what has to happen. If I give you two years today to build a successful business you have have to free extra years attached to your life. What would you start. And what would the domain be. I think I'd probably challenge myself to do something very different and out of my comfort zone like for example build a toy company toys really had a hard time urging the divide between the physical individual. They're either physical. Orbital are the old school physical toy companies. Don't get digital and vice versa. I also think that there's things things that kids have benefit from like being connecting with and social networking and everything else that inherently will not work in the tradition in the paradigm anything about them today because no one wants Sir children's identity online now. It wasn't sharing personal information about themselves with others. Sometimes I think wow could there be an entirely different approach to a high red physical digital toy like experience for kids. That could really research development. Be Fun do something that completed my zone. So I think chance your question two years I I would force myself to do two more years of anything I've ever done before but rather scratching and try to empathize with a different type of customer and Cox Automotive is the Technology Company behind Kelley Blue Book Auto Trader Dot Com and many other car sales and information platforms Cox automotive transforms the way that the world buys sells and owns cars. They have the data and the user base to understand the future of car purchasing and ownership hip. Cox Automotive is looking for software engineers data engineers scrum masters and a variety of other positions to help push technology you forward if you want to innovate in the world of car buying selling an ownership checkout Cox Auto Tech Dot Com that's C. O. X. A. U. T. O. T. C. H. dot com to find out more about career opportunities and what it's like working at Cox Automotive. Cox Automotive isn't a car company. They are a technology company. That's transforming the automotive industry thanks to Cox Automotive and if you want to support the show and check out the job opportunities at Cox automotive good a Cox Auto Tech Dot com you've seen adobe make the shift to a modern SASS company and it reminds me of there's an interview that we did with into it and I think intuitive kind of AH. I don't know the time line actually of the two companies I haven't in front of me but it seems like they're kind of in the same vintage and that evolution was really interesting. What lessons have you taken away from. Seeing how adobe has successfully matured into a company it's been this is another major journey. It has been in order to be a part of it's amazing to it's one thing to build this aspect to turn a business. That was a perpetual downloaded software business. This is for boxed suffer business into a real true enterprise grade SAS offering. It made easiest part. Hart was making the business model transformation of that was very hard to get a product teams to think differently about how he delivered value on a daily basis as a weekly basis as opposed to every eighteen months new version with new features to build a new title relationship with the customer that requires an entirely new go to market strategy energy and different messaging and different tactics mean. That's that's been a multi year journey that we're still undergoing. I think as a company and one of the the things that I'm thinking about is the future of creative tools are collaborative are cloud based work across devices are enriched with services. Mrs Allow you do things. You can't even do on your on your own device. That is a true SAS creative offering offering that we haven't fully delivered on yet and there's more coming in in a few months and is more coming next year but it's getting the teams to think inactive friendly friendly to function to have different operating models of working together. I mean if you think about the robot software. Every todd had its own bottom in every team worked on their own as long as he delivered on the same date. They were fine now. It's the opposite everyone has to have a refocus on consistency of user experience shared services that are leveraging Jamia shared technology. Teams are building services. Everyone needs of course this. API first documentation mantra is now very important to us again again. These are some of the internal mechanics that are completely different from the way. The company was prior. These mature software companies are such a different animal than any kind of mature business. We've seen in the past as far as far as I can tell when you when you think about Microsoft plus get hub plus linked in if you're a startup founder and you had access to those distribution channels and those resources you could do oh so much but trying to marshal those resources in the correct way as a large organization is a totally different problem problem. Can you contrast the management challenges of building be hands which you talked about in great detail on the messy mental with the management challenges. You have dobie vastly different in the sense that of course you know w the twenty thousand Plus Person Organization for me in my job is all about. It's a fight for alignment. I'm trying to get more and more people aligned and in a small mall organization like it was very easy because we were all in ambient vicinity everyone hurry everything and I was able to hire every single person it myself and so it's easier to optimize for linemen when you have a very big organization the most frequent way of solving misalignments were you have different teams with different backgrounds and different expertise in different ways of looking at the world is imposing process so checkpoints processes for the the concept alignment processes for the project plan commits in reviews and everything else but then you quickly learn that the more cross as you throw the problem the less engaged engaged people become and the slower the organization moves and so then the question is well. How do you optimize alignment a huge organization without without relying solely on process and that is where leadership in to me design comes in. It's this amazing thing that when you get an amazing raising high fidelity prototypes and you get all the people in the room. A prototype is worth a thousand meetings so one of these I've done is I've empowered designers to not really get up front and center in the in the product experience or the product building experience so that we can have those prototypes sooner to force alignment across all the right people way upstream. Another thing that I've done is spent a Lotta time going around and trying to tell stories articulate. The vision should for every into lot of repeating myself his some people would get tired of doing that but I think a big part of my job is to just get folks aligned because what I have found is that when they are magic happens even a large organization be defy all expectations. Amish is extraordinarily hard for the online creative economy is showing so much promise and you you predicted this when you were working on the hands the world in which be hands grew up looks so so much less creative eight of than than today's Internet where you have you know Patriae on and Youtube and podcasts are blowing up and you have five ver- and you know I don't know if you saw but but spotify just acquired a company called sound better which is like a a musician marketplace which is a really interesting a AH concept of a distribution of large distribution channel acquiring a marketplace. Do you have any predictions for what these new platforms will give birth to. Oh Martin and predictions for marketplaces platforms better marketplaces y just mean generally speaking. I mean this is a this is a very new creative economy. Konami were living in a few things first of all. I think we'll see a new breed of marketplaces that don't just rake a fifteen to thirty percent. Take of everything that happens but have a different business model. I've seen some that are watching kind of token driven where stewards of the marketplace race artists and others that are selling their talents can also accumulate tokens for doing other things that contribute to the health of the marketplace those tokens tokens go up in value over time and that that's actually the modernization task for the people who are building the marketplace then he will see new structures or is that evolved this fifteen thirty percent take a different direction. I think this is this is that forty percent of the American workforce by the end of twenty twenty and we'll be independent ED professionals and so these are all people who are constantly trying to get new customers. They use a lot of whether they are massage therapists or trainers ars or any any sort of person in the services space even a web developer even designer. Yes there's lots of ways to acquire customers by marketing themselves but if you ask any of them number one channel their best new customers or clients they'll say it's referral and referral is very inefficient all circumstantial you happen to have yet to be with the person or think of the right person to ask and get a referral the right time to get to it's actually make magic there and I think that there will be also a new breed of platform that is driving referrals in new ways and that's what I spend a lot of time thinking about without also think that we'll see platforms of labor evolves to when you were there not lowest common denominator kind of leading the lowest in win but actually act as a form of price protection for talent. I think right now if you go to work or these others what you'll find is that people from around world are underbidding in projects and then people of indicating with their paid for by they're paying for and he's seen as an extreme ways in SPEC work and crowdsource design websites where people are paid nothing to do work and they're only paid if if the client uses the were night is just a really bad trend for everyone because the work just gets crappy buren people. Don't make a living so. I honestly think we're GONNA see some higher end platforms for work emerge that are you know that really lobby would have very very successful productive careers. Are there any tropes about incentive alignment the deal that you disagree with for example when people talk about hiring being contractors. That's often a trope that it's it's pretty dangerous to do in the early days of a startup because their incentives aren't necessarily aligned with yours what you could could do something like give them a little bit of equity and then also if they're if they're working on a platform like fiber. They're going to get a star rating right so like in that star rating is kind of their lifeblood of you know not exactly referrals but being surfaced any tropes about incentive alignment in this new online economy that that you might question and I think it's a great question. Reputation obviously is everything for a Lotta. These lobbies folks. I think one thing to think about though is evacuee. Referral question is why why is it that we trusted friends. Take on something or someone they worked with more than whatever whatever a thousand random people yelp vote a son their average star as you. Why does that why the trust testimony from a friend get more real estate in our our brain than a four point five star rating from a billion people there was something it out does this very like cumin tendency of ours research and why haven't modern networks platforms evolve to really let us tune into everything that our friends in trusted trusted colleagues and people that have credibility thing you know if I want to go to a restaurant I wanNA know the ratings from random people who go to that restaurant or one another ratings from fifty the best restaurant curator's who really know what to look for in all the right department so this land and this has been age old question of curation versus narrow talk talk recy- allowing taking people out of it or pushing people into it in my vote. Is That ultra people want human human implantation entreated experiences especially in this age. Ai and four point five stars. There's GonNa be a I think. There's going to be raging comeback in that regard. I was talking to somebody comedy about this yesterday. She was telling me about an idea for turning blog posts into podcast. which is an idea that we've we've seen before you know you and a and as text to speech gets better yeah okay? We can have more of this what I don't think people are actually looking for. I mean they are looking for the content but they're looking for the content merged with the human inflections and so there is this necessity acidy of both the human and the technological element now of course. I bet you're seeing this in the adobe product evolution there are all these opportunities to he used to send the edges of products and the things that you make and allow the human to work more quickly and more officially. What are your any recent updated perspectives on human computer interaction given what you're seeing adobe. Yeah I think about this a lot because we have a number of efforts. Artificial intelligence and people often ask will house creativity. What's IT GONNA do. Actually I think it's going to make yes more creative and the reason is is because if you look at the way anyone uses photoshop for example forty to fifty percent of their tynan photoshop is doing repeated repeated mundane annoying kind of over and over type of tasks that are not creative at all and why isn't the tool the tech thing as as you try to mask someone's hair with a enrich amounts of detail that you're doing. I do it for you if you die in five steps and we know L. E. Ninety nine percent likely at your house next seven steps. Why don't we just jump ahead. Why can't the productivity side of our lives become automated so so that we can spend more time on the creativity side which is thinking about things in new ways falling through our mistakes of the eye to discover entirely new visit doing things you being being humid and so what if that is actually the ultimate trend that were missing that AI will basically make of creativity the new productivity all of the things that we used to invest in people to do over centuries to essentially optimize reportedly satiny will now be automated done by robots etc freeing people out to do things that are more creative and what are the implications of this Hi We ought to educate our children were kinds of skills. We developed succeed in the workplace. What kinds of tools needed to be deployed to deploy productivity tools. Enterprise is why like Microsoft Office Excel in now do need to deploy creative tools enterprise wide that anyone can visually express their ideas can communicate kit compelling ways can can show data in new and creative ways. I think about a lot that I don't think that's enough airtime. When you listen to spotify or read the New York Times or order lunch on Grub you get a pretty fantastic online experience but that's not an easy thing to pull off because behind the scenes these businesses have to handle millions of visitors they have to update their inventory or the latest news in an instant and ward off the many scary scary security threats of the Internet. So how do they do it. They use fastly vastly is an edge cloud platform that powers today's as best brands so that their websites and APPS are faster safer and way more scalable whether you need to stream live events handle handle black Friday traffic or simply provide a safe reliable experience fastly can help take it for a spin. Try It for free by visiting fastly Ashley Dot Com Slash s Daily. Everybody needs a cloud platform to help you. Scale your company. Everybody needs a CDN check it out by visiting fastly DOT COM slash s. e. daily now you kind of mentioned that in a few different ways I talking about the what you just said. The idea that people in a large organization reservation need a way to communicate their ideas and and then earlier you alluded to the fact that it's better to show than to tell probably especially ED design oriented company like Dobie with tons of designers working internally and you could just empower them to show their ideas Amazon. has this thing called the six pager ager right where you write six pages of your idea. That's a very old style. You know that's a technology. That's been around out for a little bit longer than you know A. I driven design tools. Is there a tension there between the fact that yeah it would be great better to show them to to tell but you know one of the most successful companies in the world prefers to tell yeah so the question that humans are generally visual. Oh I don't know I mean I've always considered designed to be in some ways the cheat code of business in products. It's amazing to me the impact of having amazing designer as a partner I just find that it drives level of alignment near the ration- in all the other things that make a big difference in outcomes. You know more so than almost any other investment. I could possibly make so. I guess I just come come to that strong S S. Why did powerpoint get so abused in organizations well. It's the only in some ways it was the only visual communication tool we were ever given and the abuse of power point is representative of the beginning of the trend. I just described. It's everyone realizing in order to get ah people aligned in organization needed to show rather than tell but they didn't have the training or the right tools to do stuff I mean powerpoint is just not a a creative tool in my view communications tool that is sort of optimize more for productivity than creativity depot are adhering to templates. Let's by default. You're the focal point is more on the text in Italian as opposed to the showing and also it's not a it's not a tool that allows you to follow all along and interest over time around these ideas in the every powerpoint is essentially a static document which is wild think about any powerpoint slide so you see has information on it that is not only subject to change but should change over the course of a project whether they are the metrics or how we are compared to the KPI's for ourselves or what's the mission of the project and how that evolves or wants to go to market strategy and how that evolves as we try it at a rate all all those slides are essentially focal points that we should all be following and tracking the changes of throughout our project but nothing that I just described as possible. Oh and I think it's a sort of a disservice to what the enterprise needs tomorrow to be more creative. There has been a lot of literature about startups that has been created in the last several years a lot of it has to do with the rise of Y combinator and the democratization of this knowledge and you have your own take on a lot of these different pieces of wisdom that have become commonly accepted practices in startups and then you have your own fresh completely fresh ideas in the middle. Is there anything from the world of contemporary temporary startup wisdom that you disagree with Ho goodness. I mean quite a bit of it probably but I think me listen. These are it. It's funny like I call these healthy tensions and the reason I use that term is because there's no really like right answer in act. The process of managing attention is what gives you the answer I mean I talked about alignment versus process for example. You know now it's not just process was also getting more line to solve this problem that every organization has. I mean Polish versus the MVP is another classic one everyone says as you should get the MVP out there and enter the problem with that. Is that every whatever you put out there I becomes somebody's the local maximum and it's extraordinarily a hard to realize that another area train is even you know even higher and you should climb in a complete different space so the decisions that you make back into the MVP actually matter more than you realize and this if Theo just launched thing doesn't really always work out. If you have a few view of the wrong assumptions. I also think that you should always polish the part that is most distinctive to your product. If you're going to be known for one particular area like made sure you nail that before launching because that is your one chance another you know. Do you get as many customers as you possibly can or do you only get the right customers at the right time a container this as well. I actually think that when you watch product you should only get customers are forgiving it first and you should wait for those viral. Carol customers that will tell everyone about your products until you're ready for people to tell everyone about your product by the way our customers won't do that if they don't think your product is perfect which it never is in the beginning so I mean these are just a few examples of the typical startup knowledge that I take a bit of a contrarian Aryan view around the Polish idea. I I like that because it is. It's such a crowded market these days in its in just nobody's. GonNa pay attention to your to your half baked product. These days is that's. I think that's something that that has changed and we'll never reverse at this point. You talk about the long I'm game versus. The short game in this book can the long game in the short game. Be satisfied simultaneously at a given point in a business or are they incompatible. Are you always trading off between the long game and the short game. I think it's a great another example of a healthy tension were Rudolph fooling ourselves. If we didn't believe that the short game didn't matter or of course it matters in fact we're all governed by short-term words systems and we're all we all have to see progress to make more progress and so you. Kinda have to keep in mind as you incentivize in reward a team and everything else that being said if you have incredible conviction the end state of what you're trying to make happen then you should have a high degree of tolerance with some of a slow date things doing that will really distinguish you in the long run and for me for hands. I never wanted to be a portfolio creator website that just was compared with any other website portfolio creation tool or a place Show your work. I really wanted to be answered. The about organizing empowering creative people we had to make some decisions decisions to play that game that short that they may be has take longer to to build when it was starting a conference on you is now it's eleven year were building to in such a way that route foster meritocracy and was a community and all these other elements stat. Were harder to do but to me like made us. It was a long game of what the answer was intended to be as opposed to a commodities portfolio management system of which there are many so I think you have balanced balanced the two but you have to be a bizarre designs to this the leader of a team to be merchandising the your turn wins and the short-term scenarios with your team in order to keep their reigns involved involved because they are human but also you have to you have to find long game you to play and then you have to stick with it. Let's end on a tactical note. What psychological tactics can the listeners. Who are in the middle of their own creative project that they're struggling through any new tips or tactics about getting through that difficult part? I think it's important in one of those common questions. I get from entrepreneurs especially by anyone out. Bold new projects is should I quit or should I stay with. My answer is always simply nece. Your job is to accumulate more conviction in way what you're trying to do ultimately in the end state based on the customer feedback reuser research the process of building products positive hiring process process talking about you. Industrials everything you're doing is either giving you more conviction or lessening your conviction in that end state so love as as you are getting more conviction that this needs to exist. The world needs US says. It's the right solution than every other problem. You're having you are or just in the nothing at all and it's par for the course and you've got to stick with it and recognize the competitive advantage of most companies is just sticking together long enough to figure it out however however if you are getting less conviction as a result of all these things. I just mentioned then you should flip and do something different. Should you should quit and try something something different. There's no pride in sticking with something simply because you started anti truism of that. That's a contrarian view. Something we've talked been taught for our entire. Lives is like once you start. You know. Don't quit until you finish. That's as bogus. How could you do that in a world where we're constantly learning the truth truth as we set out on the journey so I just encourage everyone to do that. Constantly tasks as I'm getting more or less conviction in the end state and separate eight that from Oh my gosh is this hard. Did this product work related. We do it again or any other challenge or self-doubt face along the way it. It actually doesn't matter so conviction so they're building Scott. Thanks for book thank you. Thanks for podcasts talk. Find collapsed is a place to find collaborators for open source. Software fine collapses a company that I started and it's a place to build a team around your idea. It's a community of engineers and designers and project managers and creators and on fine collapse. You can post your project. You can integrate with get hub and you can work with other people. You can get your project discovered by other developers that are looking for something cool to work on together and it's a place that's inclusive. Were we're looking for all kinds of people to join our community and if you're a software engineer and you've got some open source projects that you're interested in finding collaborators four. We'd love to have you on find collapse. We have video chat. We have a trust based review system and it's a place where you can you build your portfolio. You can build credibility and I'm looking forward to growing the find collapse community and seeing your projects ex if you have something cool to post. I'd love to see you on find collapse that F. I N. D. C. O. L. L. A. B. S. DOT COM and if you're a new developer who's looking for a project to get started. You can also use find collapse to find new projects to checkout and learn how to contribute to open source through find collapse. Thanks for listening to Software Engineering daily and I hope you check out find collapse and.
Kafka Data Pipelines with Robin Moffatt
"A new software product usually starts with a single database that database manages the tables for user accounts and basic transactions when a product becomes popular the database grows in size there are more transactions and more users accompany grows around that product and the company starts to accumulate more data in different sources. There's analytic systems time series databases and logging tools and all with those tools start to generate data moving this data between different systems starts to become complicated Apache. Kafka is often used as a system for moving moving data between these different systems performing transactions and generating aggregations and summaries of these large quantities of data Robin Moffitt works works at conflict and he has written numerous articles about how to move data between systems and design effective workflows for data pipelines Robin enjoins the show to talk about modern data platforms and databases and the patterns for using Apache Kafka to connect those systems to each other. If you're interested in learning more about how companies use Kafka the Kafka Summit in San Francisco is September thirtieth through October first companies linked in an Uber and Netflix will we'll be talking about how they use Kafka full disclosure confluence which is the company where Robin works easy sponsor of Software Engineering daily so Cox Automotive is the Technology Company behind Kelley Blue Book Auto Trader Dot Com and many other car sales and information platforms Cox Automotive transforms the way that the world buys buys sells and owns cars they have the data and the user base to understand the future of car purchasing and ownership Cox Automotive is looking for software engineers data engineers scrum masters and a variety of other positions to help push technology forward if you want to innovate in the world of car buying selling an ownership checkout Cox Auto Tech Dot Com that's C. Jio Ex a U. T. O. T. C. H. Dot Com to find out more about career opportunities and what it's like working at Cox Automotive Cox Automotive isn't a car company. They are a technology company. That's transforming the automotive industry thanks to Cox Automotive and if you want to support the show and check out the job opportunities at Cox Automotive Good Cox Auto Tech Dot Com Robin moffitt welcome to software engineer daily. Thanks so much for having me we've done many shows goes on Kafka. We've also done many shows on databases. We have not done much coverage of the connection between the two. Why why would I want to integrate a database with Apache Kafka also great question I suppose most people have got data's databases whether say legacy thing and then moving more to keeping their data and Kafka and other systems or simply 'cause they're building applications where they got some data residing in a database? They want to bring that data together gather with day's coming from other places. Maybe some micro services rioting but almost always does a date space in the picture somewhat an awesome time people want to bring data into Kafka given give an example of why might integrate database with Kafka sure so databases have been around for ages. They'll be around for a long time. Bats people use databases data around but all the time that data they also wants us with the offense that flowing through Africa so that could be offloading green data from a database through Africa to an alternative data stall it could be easing days that you got an a database to use to enrich events that flowing through Kafka but almost always choice is a database that figures in the picture somewhere and you want to get that data into Kafka. Could you defined the term e t al because I think this is a term. We're going to be using throughout out our conversation sure that's really interesting question because I think the answer is changing to this the historic answer it means extract transform load and it was what we did between relational databases. We took Beta from transactional system typically. We extracted it from there. We transformed along the way we may be D. Normalized we confirmed the mentions did the typical data warehousing type stuff and then we loaded it to our data warehouse but nowadays. ETL Is more broadly describing how people work with data there's so many more different data stalls out their sources of data lots of the time people doing et L. without really realizing realizing it's they're taking data from place modifying. Its putting it somewhere else so I think the traditional definition of ACL is becoming somewhat obsolete almost an actually people think more broadly about what they're doing through the Lens of Asia and they kind of operations we throw it traditionally. You've got a hey transactional database. Maybe you're running a bank or you're running a ridesharing company and you've got this database. That's actually accepting financial transactions actions. It's accepting user transactions. This is the database that's actually your source of truth for your users your customers interacting with your main system and if you WanNa do things like data science or aggregations of the data you probably WanNa put it in a different database for a number of the reasons that we've covered and the process of getting that data from the source of truth database from your operational database into whatever your analytical system is that is a changing story if I understand you correctly absolutely so how has the et L. process assess change and why has it changed. I have there been some new technological developments that have caused it to change. I think the key thing is the idea of events unto almost as much of an extent the idea of real time processing so I think one of the greats misunderstandings around Katherine Stream Processing in general it's about real time and if you don't need real time that I don't need something Kafka and event stream platform but that's kind of looking at things back to front the reason that people even a changing how they do. Et L. to be using an event streaming platform is that by building your data around events you can actually model much more accurately what happened in your business so every single interaction with your business whether it's sales or clicks on a website or rights in a rideshare they're always series of events and those events you congregate up in Sir are stunned view of the world through facts dimensions but that strain sequence of events also describes important operations and characteristics what's happening in the business so by capturing those events using something like calf enables us to get much richer view off the data and also do so in enero time so you get an immediate reaction to what's happening but also a greater understanding of what's happening as well so that's why people are moving more towards doing things using in Kafka for ETL because the richer insight to the data where our events being created where events being stored events have been created all around us and there are some exceptions but broadly speaking all data is a series of events. It's just that we usually choose to store them in a implementation detail as lots lots of data in a database somewhere but all started off as a series of events clicks on websites series of events transactions are banker series of events almost all data's a series of events and so anytime dangerous created created events how we stole those events is then up to us and we can store them persist in Africa we can take them from there. We can aggregate them and write them anywhere else don't do but something like Kafka and event streaming platform enables us to assist those events give me a high level architectural oh picture of what et L. Pipeline is so we've talked about transactional databases. We've talked about out the role of Kafka a little bit and we've talked about some databases that you might WanNa put. ETL Data into like doc data warehousing kinds of systems can you zoom out and give me an architectural picture of the different components of this et L. Pipeline Show so you've got your enrichening mentioning database or databases and this is another other reasons why people are moving towards different architectures that you often have different sources. You need to get the data out out typically. Don't using change data capture. That's then streamed through Kafka or stream processing platform. The enrichment is then done on Oh not data as it passes through supplying those transformations without transformed data or data raw data that can then be streamed out to warn or more different targets so the simplest example would be a single transactional system streaming data into somewhere like Kafka and streaming it straight through through UNMODIFIED into for example S. three with Athena and taught today your automatics but more people realize the benefits of actually when she got that data and Kafka Africa you can transform as it passes through written back into Kafka and then consume it to multiple places so you could write it to us three. If your cloud analytics you could also London's to an on premises database post grass or something that's but you can also use that same data to drop locations so you start to get away from this idea of having separate unless it systems and separate applications and the kind of never to show meets actually you can use the same day to drive your unless X. on in your applications because oil comes from the same fence the et L. process has historically been thought of as a batch process so for example. Maybe maybe we on a nightly basis. Take all of our transactional data and batch it into a data warehousing system and and then we can do analytics aggregations on this data warehousing system because it's better for doing these large scale queries of course. There's a number of problems with this batch approach one as soon as you decide where you're batch is going to be you are going to start losing data at that has happened since the batch and two if you want to build up to date applications on top of that analytical processing system then it's going to be outdated I mean there's other problems with the batch mode of thinking. Can you explain why. ETL makes more sense. It's as a streaming process as a constantly updated process rather than a batch system. I think the answer to that is to turn it around on its heads and say well. Why would you betcha up? Why would you wait an artificial period of time before you process your data's happens and in the old days that was because while so we had to wait for the shops to shut their doors and the point of sales around there conciliation and to send the data mainframe because of all these technical reasons nowadays we do have those technical technical limitations we have the ability to process data as happens with all of those business benefits of having a today fresh fear of the data that can drive up to date analytics but also drive transaction applications? We don't have to segregate the processing and say over here. We have some stale data front. Let's ex over there except for hookup for those unlit for applications dating the real time data hooking into that transactional database directly and I've been to hits on that source data we you can actually take the evidence out there. We can use them to drive unlit ethics and applications. What does the streaming E. T. L. workflow oh look like in contrast to a batch? ETL workflow so in some senses at the seminar concepts if bringing your days rain you've got cleansing using it. You've got joining it enriching. It's aggregating. It's some of the differences are around how you handle things like time because in a batch you know what your time window window is. It's once a day or once every hour and it's clearly defines with streaming. ETL You need to research clearly about time. Are you talking about the time or the assistant time and also the time windows that you apply to the data but by and large once you kind of understood the concepts of the streaming components habits it's still the idea taking some data applying stunned analytical processes to it to conform you know dimensions and enrich it and so on I'm put it somewhere else or indeed drive on lettuce directly from stream processing system so if you have the data in a data source like a transactional database. Maybe it's in Mongo. Maybe ten post grass database. You WanNa do some stuff to that data. You WANNA perhaps put the change data capture log into Kafka and then you want to do additional processing on that data. Can you describe the process of getting that data from your transactional database into Costco giving the engineering breakdown of what I need to do to do that sure so the technique you're going to use is change data capture and there's actually two different types of change data capture. CDC The one which most people think of when you say CDC is locked based Change Data capture going against chance the transaction log off the sauce database taking the events from the transaction lock but there's also query based change data capture and this is where you pull the source database nice to try and determine what's changed since you last pulled it so both ways of finding out what has changed with different pros and cons so so mark based Change Data capture gives you much greater fidelity of the data every single challenge and the particular database table is captured every delete every updates every insert if he used query based change data capture. It's much easier to set up but it means that you're going to miss certain elements of the data. You can't capture deletes. It's because you can't query a database for data. That doesn't exist anymore. You're also going to potentially miss changes. The same record occurred multiple times within the pauling window so if you pull the database every five seconds on the data changed four times within that five second window you only capture later state you don't capture those in between changes so then it comes down to well. What are you using data fall and if all you want to do as mirror the state of your database over target data staffer and let's maybe perhaps it doesn't a matter but if you're looking to create event driven applications based on the state changes within the data every time customers created every time their addresses change every time in order order stays exchanges and so on then you want to use look based change data capture because then you capture every single events out of the databases transaction once that the data is in Kafka? How do you make use of it? You can our days so from Kafka and you can stream it straight through to a target system so the way that we typically do integration with Africa and other systems both inbound and outbound is using Kafka can act so Kafka connect is part of Apache Kafka. It's it's one of the API is with the nets on its configuration file base. We'd have to write any code of such and it lets you do streaming integration so you can stream day cerain museum team. CDC for example in Africa you could stream that data straight out to a target system so you could say I'm going to capture every single change from us all system. I'm going to end all of those events events down to as three up to three or two big query auto local postgraduate oracle instance wherever you want to put that data you can straight through using Kafka connect you can then also process that data within Kafka using stream processing technologies such as Kafka streams which again is part of a Patrick Africa fca using something like case equal which is a streaming sequel projects working with Acer within Apache Kafka and the outputs of those stream processes go back back into Kafka topics. which can then be sing? It's using Kafka connect down to target systems. All those topics can be subscribed to by applications that you're right. They want to use that data. Looking for a job is painful and if you're in software and you have the skill set needed to get a job in technology. It can sometimes seem very strange that it takes so long to find a job. That's a good fit for you. 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You're going to see that's almost instantaneously you can also have your aggregates populated that way onslaught as your target system allows item potent updates then you're aggregate swell updates in place so if you're building an aggregate of what am I current sales within the last hour Woah for example than the aggregate K. K. You'll get over it on each time and we'll just increase per hour any late-arriving data would also get updated against the appropriate McKay as well okay so you've given another example here of a search system so you could see potentially taking your transactional data data store and if you wanted to have search indexes created against that transactional data store and you want to have the search index is constantly updated you you could have the data being buffered from your transactional data store into Kafka and then you could have your search system reading from Kafka and updating dating its search indexes. Yes absolutely again. That's one of the common use cases for Kafka because since Kafka persists this data for as long as you want to the two with about forever with that's for ten minutes or based on the certain amount of size you persist that day and you can use it multiple times so for example populate your search index if you're searching next goes bang or if you want to scale us out and additional instances you replayed update from Kafka down to the target but but you're also updating it constantly from the system so it gives you the ability to populate a maintain those caches but that same day to the populate your search indexes as you can also be using that same data to populate a graph database or unless six database however you use that data you can use it multiple times from that same topic and I want to ask a question here. Why do we actually need Kafka if we're just trying to get our data from a transactional data system into into a data warehouse or trying to get data from a transactional system into a search index why not just throw that data straight into the search index or straight into the data warehouse warehouse? Why do we need this middleware of Kafka? That's a good question and it's one that's does come up because on the surface of it seems like that's the thing to do. We're introducing apparently currently additional complexity by using after in the first place the answer is that it's never just one pipeline. It's never just the set of data is used in this just one place over there. It's always all this data. Hey in east populates search index and we want to use it for analytics and we want to share it with this other departments and we want to use it Dr Association so you have two options us something Kafka which lets you take a real time feed of those events from the source system and use it multiple times concurrent concurrently against different target applications and consumers or you start to rebuild yourself a spaghetti architecture by taking the data from the source system to one place copying it to another and making it available to another unhooking all these different dependencies together which then makes it very difficult to change any of those pieces to scale them out and data chick it to replace one of those or move them all of these dusty dependencies so Kafka. LSU decouple those tendencies it also gives you many additional benefits. It's like providing buffering between sauce and targets so it does make a lot of sense when checklist examining the alternatives to using it one other thing that you can do who is data enrichment so if I- buffer my change data capture log into Kafka I can have data enrichment processes running over that data that's incorrect explain the role of data enrichment show so it lets you take events as they come in which can be from any source system or application so it could be stuff happening in database it could be applications writing directly to Africa and those events you can then start to process you can start to cleanse the data as it comes in and filter out but records you can start to reshape modify the schemers as you can start to join other data that could be data from a different database from a different system from a flat file from another application but because it's all in Kafka it can then be worked with together regardless of where it came from she can start to join an ritual your data you can start concatenation create deprivations off that data undoing undoing all within Kafka. The processing of data within Kafka is often done through a system called Kafka streams dreams so stream processing is the act of doing changes to streams of data that are coming into your system mm-hmm and there's a large number of ways that you can perform stream processing you could just set up a simple python script to just re data eight off of Kafka and make some changes to that data and read back to Kafka you could use a distributed streaming framework like flink you could use spark streaming streaming or you could use Kafka streams. Why should people use Kafka streams or could you present some of the different alternatives that people can use to due stream processing against data in Kafka sure so there's various different ways to do it as you say on your list at some of the ones there to an extent? There's not one right light one. There's going to be technical reasons why he may choose one over the other. There's always going to be pragmatic. Reasons like skills and experience but Kafka streams is part of Apache Kafka uh-huh. It's a Java library so you just bring it into your existing applications and by being part of Apache Kafka benefits for much tighter integration when it comes to things things I security things like transactional processing and exactly once in on sex so those are some of the reasons why often people start out on a greenfield project just just using extremes because it makes sense if they already have things like fling Kim place or they already must be brought into spark streaming they may okay we'll choose to use those unless they hit up against some of the technical limitations which think well actually we'll reevaluate this and we're going to use caffeine streams one or the other common ways that people do stream processing using Africa is using case equal and this doesn't require any coding as such at all using a sequel type language to interact interact with the data and declared stream processing applications so that means no Java gnome setting up kind of spot classes and stuff like that's such another good rate. The people do often take win. We're taking the change data capture log from our transactional database and we're getting into Kafka and we're GONNA use that change data capture log to update sink databases. Are we getting the entire database reading the entire change log into cough. That sounds like putting a lot of data into Kafka. It depends entirely on how you configure your CD too so if you're using something night to be easy I'm just very good popular open source Kafka connector sports things like postcards my sequel and so on you simply say I'm interested in these particular tables so so you're putting the whole database if appropriate but often times obey well. I want to sales table. I want product table. I want the customer table on you. Just get the events related to those particular tables bills but it comes down to how you configure the particular integration. Let's take the search example so like let's say I want to have my transactional database. Get a search index built over that transactional database if I'm doing that am I starting by seeding the searching necks with with a copy of my database or is the entire process based around that change data capture log. Do I have the entire historical change data you to capture luck. I guess I'm wondering you WanNa have this search index that you're going to be updating over time to be a reflection to be a searchable reflection of the transactional database that you have but when you're bootstrapping that search index do you just take the actual database or do you just take the historical historical change data capture lock so the way that many of the tools jack is they'll take snapshots of the current database states they recalled the end the points in the transaction log at which that was taken to the system and then from thereon end capture any events out of the transaction log so it's kind of current state to throw a select whatever plus transaction log from that point said using the tonight show. You don't miss anything in between okay. Let's talk a little bit about this interface between a database ace and Kafka and that's Kafka connect. That is the interface point of how you're getting your data from one of these sources into Kafka Africa or from Kafka Into One of these sinks explain. What Kafka connect is Kafka connects in a nutshell? Lets you do streaming integration between source systems and Kafka Kafka and your target systems. It's just configuration file base so you'd have to write any code and it's part of Apache Kafka so if you're wanting to get data from Kafka down. HDFS Kafka tastes three from database into cars go from catheter search all of the possible permutations of pipelines you can think of of almost always you want to be doing that through Kafka connect so connects souls loss of the problems of integration between systems it it does things like fault. Tolerance distribution system is built on top of carcass semantics self so you can scale it out it also handles the more tricky things like schemers and offsets and all of the kind of things if you decide to write it yourself us. Many people unfortunately start off by doing and then I'll write myself a spark job to get the state from here to here are writer Java Program to get data from this database into here. All of those tricky now things Kafka connects has solved already so it's it's a solved problem. Rally also has additional capabilities like transforming the data as it passes through so whilst we've talked about stream processing frameworks works for the kind of the modern front stuff Kafka connects also has the ability translations on the data as it passes through these called single message transforms and you can do some pretty cool stuff you can start to mask the data or job fields or and rich them change data types all through Africa connect all through configuration files so actually makes it much more accessible to many more people other than just those who are going to write a Java programmer writes a spark code. Oh that's useful so you can begin in the transform process at the entry point of data from the source into the coff- connect system absolutely so for example standpoint if you're putting in data from a table with hundreds of columns which is not uncommon and you say well. Actually I only need a subset of those you could just drop out all of the additional ones or or if you've got data coming in and it's heavily identifiable information it's got credit cards. It's got addresses and you don't need data and actually holding that day so within Kafka and has additional implications vacations you can say well. We'll just call themselves on at the same time this column over here. Let's Kostas and change the dates type this one over here. Let's add in some meditators lineage information about where the information's come from and again ultras through configuration files connect runs as a distributed process so there's multiple nodes for a Kafka connect process is it always true could could explain the parallelism model of Kafka connect show so connects connects and this is an important point to make actually does not run on your brokers. Nothing runs on your Kafka brokers except possibly zookeeper and then there's plenty of people who disagree without not as well but Kafka connect run separate from your brokers. You can run a single instance of Kafka connects if you want to but as soon as he wants fault tolerance as soon as you once additional capacity you then deploy additional Kafka connect workers and apply them as part of the same group Kafka connect will then distribute the workload across those instances this if you have a single connector like a sink process that taking days off topic out to a target you can have multiple Waco acas which will then form a consumer group and read that days from powerful if you're again data from database for example Kafka connect compare lies in I'm just I'm Rachel multiple tables at the same time so the powerless misdefined within connects unless you eat scale not win. Would you need that parallelism awesome. Is that only if you have a database that's changing really rapidly so it depends on what kind of threw you want to get on your data. If you call it happy slept Kafka connects sit unstuck through the data then I guess you don't need us but it gives you the ability to do so if and when you decide you want to get the data if the data's being created a greater rate eight that has been ingested on a single workload so now that we've talked through some of the finer points of this streaming. ETL process could you zoom out again and describe the streaming ETL process for let's say let's got a transactional Mongo database. That's my source of truth database. I've scaled up over time and now I want to build a search index on top of that database. I WANNA use Kafka as the middleware described at the end to end process of getting that data for Mongo into a searchable index shaw. There's two different answers to that's. I'll give you the simple one first and then I'll come bucks the second one the simple one is you deploy Kafka connects you use the BPM connector which is plugging Kafka connect so I should have mentioned Kafka connect a plug in based architecture you plug in the appropriate connective technology so we plug into be easier. We use the change data capture for Mongo. I James Data into a cough off the topic. We can then stream data straight through out to our search index again using Kafka connect. Perhaps the elastic search sync connector so it's two three different jason files the first defines the sauce connector the second one defines the sync connector in the middle. If we want to write some string processing using something Kafka streams okay sequel if we wanted to start modifying that data dropping out records enriching records and so on but the simplest is simply a source connector a sync connector the second answer to that is that you don't always want to use Mongo as your source of truth you may well decide to architect your application throughout your data gator to Kafka first then Kafka would write the data to Mongo as well as also then onto other systems such as elastic search so it's always worth evaluating if it's appropriate appropriate to rights to your target system and then ingest from there into cover or actually right to Calcutta and Kafka pushes the appropriate systems which wants a record of that data should there are all these different connectors that have been written in the ecosystem so you've got connectors for all their from popular databases. How hard is it to write these connectors so somebody who's sitting inside of confluence the Kafka company WHO's writing all these integration points for the cough connectors so Kafka connect as part of a patrick after it's an open? API and the different parts of the Kafka connect framework that's important to understand when you start to get down to this level the connectors themselves which defined integration between Kafka connect on the source or target technology so understanding how to read been locked for my sequel or understanding how records elastic search and then within Kafka connect you have these transforms which are mentioned and again. That's an open. Api you can write your your own transforms and Java Un's also something called converters so converters separate out the business of connecting to source or target technologies. He's from the business of how you're going to serialize data in Kafka Airlines your data out of Kafka. Are you going to use something like with its rich Safafa schemers. Are you going to use use something like Jason. Hopefully you're not going to say it's just UCSB in strings but I've actually some people do but those separate components make it easier to build these different different connectors and the connectors themselves simply have to worry about how do I connect this also target technology an interface those records getting them in or take records and pushing them out as a programmer emmer you think in objects with Mongo. DB So does your database Mongo. DB is the most popular document based database built for modern application Asian developers and the cloudera millions of developers use MONGO DB to power the world's most innovative products and services from crypto currency to to online gaming Iot and more try Mongo DB today with atlas the Global Cloud Database Service that runs on aws azure and Google cloud configure deploy and connect to your database in just a few minutes. Check it out at Mongo. DB Dot com slash wash atlas. That's Mongo. DB Dot com slash atlas thank you to Mongo DB for being a sponsor of software engineering daily. We're talking here about using Kafka as this middleware data platform that we're going to be building additional data systems on top of in some ways I see Kafka Africa as replacing some of the roles of the quote unquote data lake the data lake is the term has historically been used for HDFS or or perhaps for S. three the place where dumping all your data and then you may suck in that data and do things with later on. Do you see people L. Reconfiguring the way that they frame their data platform by replacing some of the roles of the quote unquote data lake with Kafka. Yes I think that's a good way to look at. I think there's still an always will be a role for having a bunch of data sat around with an S. three or even just in relational database that people can do to run queries and just kind of generally among around with where I think people are correctly realizing that this sense is where now then hooking up to other systems so I would say a distinct anti possum would-be taking transactional data writing it to his chef asked West three free and then writing other systems which use that data those systems should be taking the data from Kafka which should be hooked up to a transactional system. I suppose it's the ad hoc nature sure of the data supports. I think that's televised use case when you replay data out of Africa is done so sequentially so it's fantastic for using to drive applications applications is fantastic for populating target systems. If you're doing the equivalent of a full table scan that's not gonNA perform so well. There are other systems that you're more suited to what kind of access to the data tell me more about how people with late stage data systems where they've already got a data lake set up. How are they augmenting their data platform system with Kafka or are they moving certain certain workflows away from a data lake centered workflow towards one that is centered around Kafka? Just tell me how that's evolving. I think generally the adoption patterns of Kafka start off with particular use cases. This is not a rip and replace approach rarely with technology because I think like you mentioned earlier people will say well this system and this system. Why don't you just connect them to each other? You start to realize the benefits of it when you have a driver. Perhaps for meeting the events themselves when you need the near real time nature of those events so difference use cases were promptly adoption of Kafka and then once Kafka's in place. It's used kind of just censor. Accelerate and people realize the benefits of being able to hook into the system as the source of data for their applications for populating their systems instead of having to hook up these kind of spaghetti architectures from place to place to place so it tends to evolve on top of what's already pretty rough necessarily ripper place and kind of get rid of existing things the replacement of Spaghetti architecture. This is something that pub sub systems have been solving offing for a long time. We've had older pub sub systems before Kafka and they have solved something similar where you have have a producer you have a number of consumers that want to see data from that producer and the way that in architecture contextual is you've got a producer that is sending messages directly to each of these consumers and by creating a pub hub subsystem you centralize that logic and you allow it to be more easily propagated because you just say hey I'll publish a message to this pub sub system and then all the necessary consumers can read from that pops up system as they need to. Why did Kafka take off why was able to supplant some of the legacy pub sub systems? What did cough could do differently than the other pub sub systems? I think one of the big reasons is the fact that it's a distribution system and so it scales and doesn't have the issue of many of the previous ones in which you would end up with having crates traits multiple instances are kind of smoke architectures with the associated problems the fact that it's at its heart. It's this district to commit log. It's very simple. Concepts concepts thoughts events are appended to this end of the log and anyone can read from that log from any particular offset and scan through and concerned the messages rather than having to have subscribers in advance declaring that they want to receive messages so again supporting the scale ability side of things I I think the fact that Kafka itself has the abilities to do processing as well means that you can do more within it. The other thing is that Kafka's based around events and on events at different from messages events give you this ability to share a notification as well as state so not simply a message saying some abolghsem thing this is a transit messages and deleted and you have to possess that state somewhere else usually database and things already an event says someone bought something and here's they bought and if you have the events you can reconstitute the state you can within Kafka streams within equally the concept of a table and a table actually comes comes from a Kafka topic simply saying looking across these keys what's the current state and we can aggregate up across those so casket becomes your source of truth in what happened happened in your business. You can take Dacian. Put it somewhere else as your secondary copy but you're a massive you of the data can actually come from those events so I think it's simply more powerful and more scalable than what was that previously you've written about other patterns patterns that we have not explored yet one pattern that I've Cassini right about his about ingesting sis logs into Kafka. Can you explain what assist log is in why he useful to ingest those into Kafka sure so this is an interesting one came from home setup out of service playing around with different virtual instances where their nets on. I thought it'd be useful to your sake all of the slogs so so what I was generated by the system in any applications on the system right into the local log to be able to centralize those logs and then start to be able to inspect them and process them so oftentimes background is but I found it interesting to take home server is connected to opt into that to see how often you got through false assess h attacks against us and by taking those sis log events streamed into a cough Khou topic and righty some stream processing against that I could start to unlike what was happening because it's event driven then generates alerts from what's and just like push notification saying in the last five minutes there have been ten attempted. It's access to the server again. This is just written using Kafka connect and in this case using case equal so I didn't have to write any code to do that. Kafka connect sits there and it listens for sizzler connections it rice in Africa Topic Casey takes that Kafka topic processes it it filters for certain conditions such as the string you get an slog doc. SSh attempts and then performing the aggregation supper fats and then that's rice back to a Kafka topic which connects then hooks up and pushes outs yes they notifications on is Kafka more broadly useful as a buffer or a middleware system for log data is it's used in so many different ways because it is so flexible and adaptable so I mentioned earlier on the idea of database offloads. That's what I was huge cases but it's also widely used for this idea of aggregation. Look Centralization. I'm processing because you can do that pricing on the events as they arrive. You've also written some about how Kafka can fit into a data pipeline that also includes data warehousing tool so google big query. Maybe you've got snowflake snowflake at the end of this. Can you describe some patterns around involving cough Khou with your data warehouse. Show so wherever your data's eight is coming from whether it's coming from a straightforward relational system the on premises whether it's from a cloud based platform whether it's from your own applications writing into Africa directly directly you have your transaction events in Kafka you can then enrich them and transformed them as you want to and then Kafka connects can push data to to the appropriate analytics platform so it can push it too big query can push it to snowflake this connectors have both of those that are part of the Catholic connect framework so you can have real time data aggregated and and rich if you want to use his stream processing but then London area time in these target data toya houses I have read several of your articles where you frequently use oracle databases in your examples. I don't know if that has to do with your background in in particular databases but do you encounter a lot of cough users who have oracle installations yeah so it's with Oracle doing consultancy with Oracle analytics product so a natural affinity so it's and it's interesting. I think how the apparent Marcus is changing ranging or usage with kaffirs changing originally a few years back when I started looking at it it was very much the cutting edge stuff so it was people who are really really heavily interested in the cutting edge dispute systems and the traditional enterprise things like Oracle and got less of a mention now you see more and more more conferences that meet ups on community platforms people asking about integrating with Oracle with territory with sequel server because that eleven eleven of adoption with is there that is actually making huge inroads into the enterprise. It's not just a cool kids Tagliani Mar it's a serious platform. Men's prices are adopting adopting onions prices tend to have prostates vases. I think there are people who would like to move away from their oracle installation because Oracle can get quite expensive and the database market has gotten really competitive so there are a lot of good alternatives to Oracle. Do People Use Kafka to migrate away from Oracle Sutton Agree Steph shift to that's if it's a straightforward migration. This question does come up quite a Lotta conferences as if it's simply a one time big bound thank Africa's not necessarily appropriate way to do it because there's plenty migration tools out there on the markets where after fits very well is where you want to retain an existing system without impacting out but take changes from system and start pushing them to the new one so you can run side side-by-side so people use approach murphy from one database to another they'll see us moving from on premise to cloud platform auto earning separates POW platforms because you've got your events from your sauce whether it's database whether it's an application right into our database into Kafka those events can then be pushed her whatever your target WanNa want to send you can run side by side without impacting your original application and then once you got to go you can switch off that sauce so Catholic massive benefits that you written some about about the blurring lines between analytical and transactional systems so this is like where historically a you might have been running a nightly job to aggregate. Maybe a recommendation system. Maybe you've got your transactional data system them and in order to build recommendations based on that transactional data system you do an et l. job into a data warehouse and then use the data warehouse to generate those recommendations but these lines are blurring because we want to do more and more up to date analytical whole workloads. Can you explain how the patterns that you're seeing around. Kafka are fitting into this improved latency of the analytical Nicole workloads. I think historically we've always separates technologies because you had to a mentioned sometimes technology fast is how we design systems and in the pass you had to decide. Am I building a transactional system. Don't want to get the data in quick but it was not read are my building on medical system. It will be quick to get the data arounds but it might be slow to go to an and you had to choose and so organizations and teams grew up around this way of thinking and developers and engineers had this way of thinking it's right well. I'm an application developer I- knees application technologies nothing to do with analytics I can ignore those data warehouses and stuff Kafka brings the data brings the events front and center and now applications can access that data enero time analytics can also be driven by that same data so I think the move away from doing things in separate worlds is actually happening. I think is happening slowly because you still have this inbuilt way of the the people have a thinking about what I'm building this application. It must be an application type architecture. I don't need to think about analytics. I'm not going to integrate with let's ex- except for one time bachelor once tonight out of it now. It's much more tightly integrated. You've been at conflict for a while now. What's something new that you've learned about Kafka in the last year also question I think that my answers and that would be around case equal which is a product? I spent lots of time working on their last year so that's built on top of Kafka streams so understanding a lot more around around how halfway houses concept of humbling streams of data instead shade the states on top of that and how you can actually do that through case equal is probably my main learning from the last year okay last question. Do you have any reflections on what it's like to be at a rapidly growing infrastructure for structure company because conflict is growing really quickly yeah. It's a fantastic place to be if you want to just kind of turn up and do something and then go home and not care about it then and I guess you could do that but you're not gonNA get the most out of it. There's some super super smart people some super nice people as well. It's just very welcoming friendly place to be a where. There's a lot of very exciting work going on. I feel privileged to have a job where the technology is awesome can talk about it enthusiastically because I genuinely think it's really me good so does that one company working on it's very smart. It's just exciting place to be okay. Well Robin. Thank you for coming on the show. It's been really fun talking to you. Thank you so much. Software can improve our lives but the business motivations of software sometimes conflict with user desires and may hurt US instead of helping us re hack is a reverse hath on that uses humane design to tackle this conflict Rehab is devoted to making today's technology she healthier fairer and more humane with this little business compromises as possible. How can our software improve our psychological state rather than stressing us out? How can we redesign our software products to make social interactions more productive and enriching instead of introducing feelings of isolation Shen and INAUTHENTIC CITY repack emphasizes humane design usability and positive mental health rehab is being hosted by Princeton in university this November and they're looking for sponsors who are interested in supporting their mission for five hundred dollars to three thousand dollars your company? He can support re hack with resources for the Hackman. Event specifics can be found on re hack dot c o that's R. E. H. A. A C K dot. Co React hopes to use higher level thinking you I at you ex design and human computer interaction to find ways to improve today's tech products. I'm a fan of what Rehab is doing and I think it's a great idea for half on I think it's very positively motivated and if you can sponsor them they could really use to help good rehak dot co to learn more about re hack and details to support them thanks to re hack for being a friend of the show and I look forward to seeing the awesome projects that come out
Elegant Puzzle with Will Larson
"Software engineering is an art and science to manage engineers is to manage artists, and scientists software companies build practical tools like payment systems, and messaging products and search engines software tools are the underpinnings of our modern lives. So you might expect this core infrastructure, which modern humans rely on to have been constructed, with pure formulaic rigor. But the best software tools are not built within a totally defined process software is built through messy iteration when a piece of software looks pristine, that is often a function of how many mistakes have been made along the way and then subsequently been corrected for there is no fixed process for how to build good software as our tools, get better. We have to update our software engineering practices to utilize those new tools. We have to rethink the style that we. We're working in. We have to discard old tools and procedures in order to pick up the new ones, and have higher leverage as an organization scales. The structure of the organization needs to be modified team members need to be reallocated checks, and balances need to be put in place. Rules and cultural practices need to be caught aside because a larger organization cannot have ties broken by an individual, we need these sets of rules to manage the increase in scale software is built by humans, and every management, decision must be considered in the light of human psychology when we change a line of code, the code does not get emotional about being altered, but the same cannot be said of humans even a minor conversation between an engineering manager enter direct report can have lasting implications on the relationship between those two. Individuals will Larson is the author of an elegant puzzle systems of engineering management will works on foundation engineering at stripe. And he's worked in engineering management at Uber. Dig and other software companies elegant puzzle provides strategies tactics and ruminations on software development will joins the show to explore the multifaceted subject of engineering management before we get to today's show a few updates from software engineering, daily land. Find collapse is a place to find collaborators and build projects. If you're looking for a co founder or other programmers to build your project or your company with checkout find collapse. I've been interviewing some people from the find collapse community on the fine collapse podcast. So if you want to learn more about the community you can hear about it on the podcast, which is linked to in the show notes. We also have a new. App for software daily on IOS Android is coming soon. The app contains all one thousand of our old episodes. 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That's the letter D the letter o dot deliver see the letter o slash SE daily, and you will get started for free with some free credits. Thanks to digital ocean for being a sponsor of software. Engineering daily. Doug himself Origene daily, thank you so much. Glad to be here. Why do engineers need managers? That's a great question. And I think you know, in a lot of smaller companies you don't. But at some point you get to have so much complexity so much change that needs to be managed through that, if you don't have managers than people spend their entire time on managing through that change that complexity themselves, and they really aren't able to focus on kind of the work. They want to be doing the work. That's maybe most valuable for the company and so really people to help navigate change is why you need managers. Once you get to a certain scale in Google's early days, they tried an experiment, where they removed all the managers Larry page said, let's get rid of all the managers. It didn't work out, so well for Google back then today, there are much better tools for engineers to self assemble. Do you think Google could work without managers today, one of the kind of special perks of working at stripe is actually the individual who was the manager for all of engine Google during that period of no managers comes in and talks with us occasionally? So we've gotten into I can't share his insights, because as his insights to, to share, but I think maybe it was a difficult experiment for, for everyone involved at that early stage in striped, the actually for a long time as well. Really had very few managers we for very long time till about three years ago had almost no engine managers just two or three for a very large team. So we've definitely tried that experiment. And learn from that experiment on here as well. I really think that it just depends on your company. I think one of the most exciting things that has changed in kind of silken dialing last decade is just these number of kind of hyper scale and companies. And these companies are so much change. You're going to countries at onto new products that teams are growing two x three x four x year over year and you really do need people involved to help manage, that type of growth and help people like, find adopt that change, I think tools are great, but one of the problem with tools as you create them kind of set them up for a certain circumstance. But I think what's novel about managing today in these fast growing companies is that these circumstances are changing so frequently that the tools are out of date, all the time, I think, joke. I've heard at my current company and also my previous one is that the tools and kind of systems were at least six months behind all the time that is true when you're growing this quickly, the tools, just take a while to catch up. And that's having humans who kind of are specialized in thinking about this stuff is so valuable, so you have the tools that are out of date, constantly, what about the engineering practices do those constantly get out of date. Also. I think we're injuring practices. If you're thoughtful, often wear more on top versus replacing are throwing away, for example, if you have two people, you can sort of do whatever you want. You may be like a paper to do list, once you have ten people, you probably want, like a sprint planning com on board. He wants some sort of way to coordinate what you're working on as you grow more. Or maybe you want a quarterly or annual planning or something, but you don't throw away the sprint planning. You still need the strength planning a maybe the individuals to other to the very bottom. So it's more about layering on the minimum process, you need to be effective versus like throwing away and kind of starting over from scratch each time, but under that rubric. How would you know if you should throw away sprint planning, this really interesting question? So I think there is idea in so a lot of management's actually governance, like actually governing kind of like a group of people, and so, you know, one of the ideas and governance that you don't see often as his idea that every law, you should actually expire in like. Three or four years or ten years or something. And what would it look like if taxes expired after ten years, and she had to get past again like, we'd have a much cleaner book of laws? I, I don't know if the laws would work that well, but so I think, you know, when you come back to the processes that we use for own teams, we should probably think about this in a similar way we should on a annual, you know, every two years, like really reflect which of the services are, which of the processes are still serving us well, but it's it can be hard to figure out which because I think one of the biggest kind of sins of management is unnecessary change. You know, often when people come into a new role, the first thing they do is they change something, you're such a strong pressure to show value that you wanted to do something useful. And I think it's really important not to kind of jump in and change things until you understand. So I think there is a one hand a strong value to getting rid of things that don't work. I think, so often we just changed things to try something different thought like a structured, exp. Merriment without a lot of clarity to our purpose. So I really think to your to your original question we should be reevaluating, but we should be clear about our goals, why we adopted it and understanding, like, honestly, the friction it caused us to consider getting rid of the current process is super important, not doing an haphazardly one probably here. I see here is like if you have a business, where things are going really well, like stripe, you are going to be tempted to in terms of management strategy go through, this basically loss, aversion where you say, okay look things are working really, really well. We've got sprint planning. Nobody likes sprint planning. You know, we've got the quarterly, or the we've got the weekly analytics meeting, nobody's paying attention in the weekly analytics meeting, but we've seen at value in the past. Let's not break. What's working, you can get into the state of loss. Aversion. What about an alternative model where you start to say, okay, look every now and then we're going to say, okay, one out of ten teams at stripe? You have to drop one of your engineering religious practices. We know. And then you have to, like document, what happens when you drop that religious, maybe I'm just playing like armchair quarterback because I, I've never managed any team or something decides stripe, but, you know, it just it in hearing what you're saying, I'm hearing, like, basically, like if it ain't broke, don't fix it. So I think there's a certain size you get to and can actually run control experiments and actually one from them. I think there is a gate, a storied history of using quote unquote experiments to prove your point, that don't actually have a lot of rigor behind them. And a lot of experiments, you can actually see what the conclusion will be before. Even start because of how the experiment is structured. It's like, oh, this team that's deeply excited about Kanban gonna try Kanban like it's teams like really bought into Kanban. There are going to be successful with Kanban more successful than, you know, they're using like scrum or something, which they hated right? So a lot of times, I find that the attempts to bring rigor to the sort of decision making on can be kind of a masquerade around kind of just like a personal preference in. I think it's really important not to let that sort of thinking, like come in on one of my favorite books. Unless years is a accelerate and it really brings a lot of science of actually measuring like how teams perform with different practices. This is from kind of the same kind of spiritual vein as like slack, and people wear a great books that actually bring data in prac science and like experiments that are controlled to actual best practices in definitely love to see more of those so often, I think it, it can just be bit of a crap sheet when. Change processes that said being really thoughtful rigorous something, I do every quarter is they look at my calendar. And I throw meetings, I don't working for me anymore. We should also be doing the same thing for our practices organizationally each time, we grow in order of magnitude a lot of our planning a lot of our headcount, a lot of our kind of structural things won't work anymore. Let's like make sure that we really want to bring those with us as move to the next order of magnitude and kind of engineering, headcount not just bring them with us automatically. I think that's a great idea. You worked at Uber during its rapid growth from two hundred to two thousand people over two years. How did you manage your own psychology during that time I think the best part of rapid growth is pretty much every week, you'll like raise your head look around and there's some really smart talented person who was sitting next to you Who Wasn't There the week before and can help in? So during change, I think you have to really make sure that you stay open. Once you start wanting to control the change too much, you start trying to shape it, and then it will kind of overcome you. But if you look at how to direct it a little bit. How do you help these new folks? Rejoining successful. How do you look at like facilitating change versus like controlling change? I think is, is really powerful in that said, I think there is, you know, there's just like basics that people not you. But don't do. I just like actually taking vacation, like actually cutting off at six PM or five PM or whatever is working your schedule. I think early on in your career can feel very selfish to take what you need continue to remain present and happy. But I think if you aren't selfish in that way, you get to a place where you're quite unhappy, those around, you can tell your unhappy and you actually kind of damage your career in a given company. So I, I really think it's being thoughtful to understand what you personally need in taking it. So they can actually be the person who wanted to be for longer versus just like peeking. Like the first three months of, of your new job or something like that. What were the chronic mistakes that you made is engineering manager in your earlier stages of career, the biggest mistake that I've made just really over and over is not being on the distinguish between something that is a one off in something that we're going to keep working on involving years. For example, let's say that you really want to get a product staffed. I think there's a way to go into the planning process, and kind of feel like either this project, it's staffed, or it's a disaster for me. Personally, I care about this project so much. But another way to look at it is, like, hang on, try to get the staff every quarter for the next two years. And keep having this conversation in instead of looking at things as this, like, kind of one time kind of event that instead of Cantamessa's evolution of like a relationship of this ongoing attempts to accomplish something I think one way to look at it. It creates in a conflict, you have to get it. Now you're fighting to get this outcome. The other way is a K like together, we're gonna like. Paul our understanding of this overtime. And it takes all this pressure off of it because it's not like you do it now or, or your ruined resumed or something. Instead, it's like, hey, I wanted to happen this time, but if not, we'll have the conversation again, in it just takes pressure off it or used to just feel every decision was this really essential critical thing that had to be perfect in, in retrospect, I was just like consistently wrong at every single one of those critical decisions that had he made just once like all of them have been able to reopen. Keep thinking about an learn more and remake later overtime software. Engineering is a very immature field. We certainly have not had this field around for very long, relative to hell much impact touting on the world. And how many people are doing software engineering these days until we have this kind of way of, of developing engineering cultures where we oftentimes, just kinda like look at okay, what's the company that has been successful the most Reese? Gently. Let's just copy the stuff that they are doing in terms of engineering management or engineering practices, because we've got a product that's working, let's just like figure out like the basic engineering management framework, that will get our product to continue and not fallen face that pattern of Conyers replicating, the previous success story that can lead to. I mean it is a great way of protecting downside risk. But it can lead to the propagation of like anti patterns or or memes. That shouldn't be copied are there any memes in the engine nearing landscape that you see relentlessly propagated that you disagree with? I think site of cargo cutting ideas without understanding kind of the environment that they came in is a very important, very, very prevalent in, in fact, I think going back to the previous idea kind of new leaders trying to show value early in their careers early under start of a new job. I think typically cargo halting idea that worked really well previously for them is kind of the most common failure case for them where there's a k they don't understand all these auxiliary pieces that made it succeed after previous company in terms of like pieces, that I think are kind of particularly. Important. Think about that. Maybe you don't think about enough one. That's really been on my mind. A lot recently as we have this kind of like dual path for engineers demands. Megan, stay senior as an icy in now, everyone knows to say that, but how do we make sure that it's really true from disparate distribution perspective from a compensation perspective from a career path perspective that both of these paths will work out, really well for folks, I think, as an industry are still a lot more work for us to do there, for staff staff, plus level, engineers to feel the level kind of impact and contribution that the kind of managers often feel that, that's definitely one. I think the, the whole kind of the entire roles of engineering manager technical program manager product manager, where those boundaries are a think this is something that we kind of like port from place to place but is actually very different each place. So I think that's like one place. Where companies can feel like they actually have. The same thing kind of ported over. But actually in practice have radically different implementations of it, although we kind of talk about, like a product managers, product managers, a product manager in reality. The roles are radically different in the same true for injuring management were is certainly one of the things I love about stripe as you have a very broad church product management were folks get to do on injuring management, rather on in product management to we're folks get to do such a broad view of things. Sometimes these roles almost he like, general management roles really kind of running like real product lines. That's something I love about stripe. But certainly, like sometimes when people like initially start their surprise, if it shear breadth of the role that community. Cox automotive is the technology company behind Kelley blue book auto trader dot com and many other car sales and information platforms, Cox automotive transforms, the way that the world buys, sells and owns cars. They have the data and the user base to understand the future of car purchasing, and ownership, Cox automotive is looking for software engineers data engineers, scrum masters and a variety of other positions to help push technology forward. If you want to innovate in the world of car buying selling an ownership checkout Cox auto tech dot com. That's C. O X, a UT O T, E C, H dot com to find out more about career opportunities and what it's like working at Cox automotive Cox automotive isn't a car company there. Technology company. That's transforming the automotive industry. Thanks to Cox automotive, and if you want to support the show and check out the job opportunities. Cox automotive good Cox auto tech dot com. The path. First scaling yourself within a company you're talking about two different pathways for an engineer. If I understand, correctly, you're talking about the path to becoming a principal engineer like a staff engineer, like just kind of this Jeff dean, kind of person that's like a really, really good, programmer. And builds really, really useful internal tools versus becoming like VP manager, senior manager, ascending that hierarchy, there's also a third category of scaling yourself within a company as an engineer, which is you write a six pager, or you use your twenty percent time to build some innovative product, those categories of engineer can really move the needle on a company by standing up an entirely new business line. Is there a way to encourage people to go down that path mean obviously, you can say the twenty percent time you can say, we've got the six pager process. You can also. More like you can push people harder. You could say we have fifty percent time. You could say we have eighty percent time only twenty percent of your time should be business. Logic, eighty percent of your time should be innovating on cool crazy stuff. How do you foster that kind of innovation? I've, like lots of different ideas on this one, I think one thing I think about is that any business has a lot of forced to work in it. And so that can be like scaling work. That can be maintenance work on that could be work, like, like migrating to meet the full GDP our requirements, where the recent kind of California privacy, requirements that are coming into play and these are things just have to happen. And so then there's also work that's kind of discretionary work that's actually often like more fun. Where should I start a new business fine. Or should I like port GDP are compliant software in like, we'll probably, I really just want to start this new project over here in. So I think one of the challenges is like businesses have this large amount of four store. If they need to make sure you value people doing does the businesses can't function without it. And then the other hand, there's this kind of, like unknown wildcard quantity. If like this, like potential kind of do experiments explorations that turn out to be like, radically valuable I think one of the challenges here is a cow. You create the right incentive structures for encouraging this in another aspect. I think is like easy to miss. Sometimes is that different people kind of by nature of their backgrounds by nature of kind of the experience in the industry or kind of their financial safety net on can afford to take risks like that. Where they're going to do an experiment. That's maybe huge, the company may be goes poorly in some people feel very safe doing that, and others don't, so I think you can inadvertently kind of perpetuate kind of class systems in your company where people who are enabled to do that. Have this one experience in people who don't feel safe for whatever reason, and there are many legitimate reasons not to feel safe taking the sort of risk, professionally? Kind of end of doing this less exciting less recognized toil work. So to me, this is really a question of. How do we make sure that we have the incentive systems right where we can actually naval kind of everyone to participate in equitable way around these sorts of experiments? And you know, one thing that we've been trying out here and a bunch of other companies have is ideal like rotations, where every one two years, you do like a three month rotation onto another project in actually, kind of pick, whatever you might wanna work on and kind of do an exploration. Learn a bunch. They're coming back to kind of the team. You've been learning growing supporting more more rigorously just like one other quick corollary here, a similar to this as fake mentorship were, like, what is one of the ways we dentis, senior engineers is how they help others grow around them. And so making sure that we recognize that work, which not necessarily easy to be mentoring. Huge team end to be kind of off on the side like kind of doing this kind of innovative thing. And so really one of the challenges as I see it as there's all these different behaviors who want to recognize and reward on in. How do we make sure that we ballet? The different paths an equitable way just gets to be quite complicated. So to me, it's just designing incentives is incredibly difficult and complicated in UNICEF figure out that then getting his model where we have more people doing innovative work on more of the time and reap their words of that. It is like much more tangible, but the problem, you know what you're describing there with the wanting to have an equitable distribution of work between boring, legacy services that have a lot of maintenance GDP compliance to be written versus sexy greenfield project that might be turning into a new business line is whereas, if you took an engineer who is working on the boring service ex- in there, okay? Working on boring service ex-, because, you know, they've got student loans to pay off or whatever, and they feel intimidated, they don't feel like they can go and do sexy greenfield. They don't they don't feel like they can do sexy. Green? Field service of their own accord? Right. But if you will Larson, drop in and say, hey, look look for the next month, we want you to go work on sexy greenfield service there. That sounds great. I'll go do that. But if you do the converse, and you say to person who has decided to go work on sexy, greenfield service because they have some money saved up. They don't have any student loans. They've decided to do that of their own accord, and you say to them. Hey, it's time for you to do your rotation on the boring service. They're gonna say, okay, I quit like I'm not interested. Why would I do that? How can you create an equitable distribution when there are so many boring services to work on and the people who have no fear of downside risk will not do the boring maintenance work, two different thoughts here. The first one is that the people have worked with who I cherish. Who are the most technical, most senior engineers, I've worked with our folks who have a strong sense of service, and to have a strong sense of duty to creating an environment where folks can succeed in everyone can succeed in. So it hasn't been my experience, that there are these people who are, like extremely strong and only want to do the best work in when a hoard it might experience has been the best people. I've ever worked with or those right. Here's this amazing work and want to make sure that there is like equitable access to it because it's their values and their values which make them great engineers around training learning sharing bringing people up so the organization, stronger around them, not just what they can bring like can they help? Others bring in grow into bringing to, to kind of the company in the organization. So I've just like not found the case that people who are out to get theirs are the, the best, folks. I've worked with my experience has really kind of. On the other direction. Your book is elegant puzzle. Why is the book medium, a useful format for disseminating information? Why not just do blog posts in tweets? So the, the first advantage of writing a book, is that you can actually touch it, which is quite, I don't know. One of my coworkers does a lot of woodworking in for a long time to understand why he did woodworking. But, you know, printing out, these copies of this book, in the kind of like interact with it physically. There's just something very special about the interact physically with something you've created when you've been working like a digital element or digital medium for for so long. So I think there's something really special there, just in general, but in terms of why a book, why not blog posts, I think balked posts have great distribution. Log post you can do kind of what you want on a little couple of hours on a weekend. Couple hours a month. You can actually create a blog for both blogs and books. Marketing is actually I think, more important than people realize you actually getting distribution. Is actually quite important? Just writing is never enough. Particularly if you're right for like, more of a niche audience, which is, I think mostly true for entering energy and is still not the largest audience in in the world. Although growing growing all the time. I think the thing that's special that a book is, you can actually have some core themes that layer throughout the entirety of it. So for my book, it's about injuring management, but, but really there's two themes. I think are really important that layer through every piece in the first is that we can actually make a good decision and good decisions matter. I think there's often a sense that management is about process or about kind of on these fundamentals. Great one one's career development. These things are critically important. But I really think that the beauty and the, the art of entering management is often about making these really critical decisions that had it kind of make trade offs between two teams that don't don't agree initially, how can you find a path forward, where they both getting gauged, or when you have constrained resources with headcount or a prioritization, like, how do you actually make the right decisions that kind of have impact on the business and actually get the results you want. And I think that is something that is kind of surprising under disgust as. -ment actually quality decision making is just so core. The other bit though, is that I think if we're intentional it's actually possible for management to be like, this deeply ethical profession where we are making a world for others that they live in that, that they find rewarding and that recognizes people who behave and kind of the ways that we really want them to and is consistent on with our beliefs of like, what the world should operate like, and so I really think getting to explore this in detail. There is only so much you can do in a blog post in terms of just like that pushing these ideas in different shapes in different sizes. And I think the book is just been like really powerful for being able to have a bunch of repetition on different angles on these couple of core ideas. In your book near the end you have references to several books, mostly books about engineering, and people management, using like you've read broadly. What is a book that is not explicitly about management or explicitly about engineering, that has had an impact on how you think about systems of engineering management, going back to kind of mistake that I make a lot in my career that we talked about earlier, I think one book that I've read is impotent in finite games, which is a great book in the sense that title gives you like nine percent of the content. And then there's a two sentence version that gives you a hundred percent of the content, which is that there are finite games that had ends in your goal is to win the infinite games that don't end. The, the goal is for everyone to keep playing in kind of moving from this, this worldview where we're trying to win this world. You were everyone's trying to keep playing together in kind of collaborating on cooperating. Succeeding over many rounds is kind of the goal. And so I think that book has really helped articulate something up slowly learning over my entire profession. But also, my, my entire like, suppose life when you were in the early days of Uber, and the company was fighting to maintain an increase market share in the well-defined ridesharing market. Did that feel like a finite game? I think that that's really interesting. Question to think about maybe I think the challenge was at times. We framed it as a finite game like get to market share in kind of succeed, like win market by market. But in reality, I think what you see over time is that it's actually not about winning a market. It's about how do you manage very carefully how to cultivate in nurture the supply and demand in each market over time? How do you make sure that the partners are getting paid in a way where they continue to drive on the service? How do you make? Sure that the safety and reliability of the service is high enough so that writer is keep using it over time. And I think it's always the case in my experience. They can take something that looks like a one off event in kind of step back and there's actually a much deeper system underneath it that you could be thinking about in thinking about it will force you to be like, much more thoughtful in clear about you're thinking versus just thinking go in. Get this done move on a never seen any business where he can just rest on your laurels and kind of end with it. It's, it's always you have to figure out how do you maintain what you've accomplished in any given point? As a business win should senior leadership frame, things as a competitive finite game because we can see historical examples win finally tutored was useful. Whether we're talking about Uber framing things in the short term as being a finite game in going after competitors or Facebook framing things in the short term going after competitors. You know, the Google plus example is great. You know, there's that classic story of Mark Zuckerberg standing up in front of the, the Facebook in saying, look Google is very clearly gunning for us with Google. Plus, we are going to ship feature every day or every week until we beat this thing. And he marshalled the troops, that was almost undeniably. A useful framing of the world as a finite game, but more generally Facebook a successful because it frames things internally to the culture as an infinite game. So when do you want to use the instrument of a finite game as an engineering manager engineering leader? I think this is this is something that really becomes a question of personal style in company culture on end. I think there are to your point. I think one of the challenges with an infinite game is that it it really brings everything into scope, and it gets very complicated to reason about trade offs. It gets very messy on the great thing about kind of nearly a little bit is this is our goal that we're going to charge towards we actually do much charging in writing software, but focus deliberately on, on implementing, it does hope narrow things hopes people like make sure it helps with alignment. So I do think in, in cases really, you want to have kind of a mix of both approaches where on for kind of tactically. Once you do planning reach quarter, a year you want to have a clear goal that focuses narrows alliance in then. But when you're picking which clear goal that you want to pursue wanna pick that goal in the in the broader context kind of bring in on all these different. Strengths in kind of different horizons like one of the metaphors, I think about a lot interactive elimination tournament where it's critical to do well enough in a given round of the game to make instant extra owns but we also need to win the next round as well on where if you do really poorly, this round because he do like a massive investment in infrastructure, forget to build a product. You don't get to advance like you run out of money lose the customers or whatnot on. But conversely, if you've never invest in infrastructure at a future around, you'll also that just can't deliver in this tension between. How do we make sure that we do well enough, this round to the next, but all how to make sure that would go into the next round with the materials that support on the people that we need to win that round as well? It's been one that's really powerful for, for planning in my experience you work on the foundation engineering team that is stripes take on platform engineering. We've done some coverage of platform engineering at Uber net flicks lift. Several other companies what are some unique practices at stripe of your platform engineering strategy. I think there are there are a number of things that I think I quite quite proud of of the team here at stripe. I think one thing we do really well, but I think is rare on is that we finished migrations, and so finishing a migration, as not getting most people over, and then like sending out like an Email, and like for not talking about it like this is like this is how, like how some people try to pretend they finished migration finishing. My Gration is driving up up adoption completely end deleting or deprecating decommissioning the old version entirely. So I think one of the things I'm most proud of that we've done here and keep doing is we actually finished migraines in that I think, is to me, just the full embodiment of like this consequent thinking, not like how do we do something really exciting? But how do we do it completely in a way where we get to deprecate what we have today and? Something. I'm quite proud of another thing that I think that we've done that is really important. Is that in this is, I think becoming more and more the norm in kind of Silicon Valley, infrastructure organizations. But we really have been focused on the full kind of software model. We've not gone down the classic kind of Essar remodel if they non software skill set, we have people who are great SRA's with a full software skillset stripe. But we haven't hired folks, particularly without the softer skill set. This can be difficult and definitely slowdown hiring for a long time. Because this mentality around reliability efficiency performance that is kind of Essary mindset is so critical to our success into like any company success at scale that it was hard for us to find people who had all of that, and strong software as well. But the benefit of doing that is, it's really allowed us to approach each of these problems from a software perspective. How do we build the tooling, the automation to automate this migration on to prevent us? I'm having any human involves in this has let us stay much leaner than kind of comparable organizations that, that, that I've seen in terms of kind of the people maintaining the systems on a day-to-day basis. I think not naming names, but I won't joined the company where when you were on call for the operations team your phone with literally run out of power in your twelve hour shifts like who just get so many pages that your phone you see the primary. It's like please help can someone take over. My phone is out of charge in that, that was just go terrible experience on here. Most of our people running critical infrastructure getting paged, you know, once a week or fewer, and I think that that's something that requires his constant thoughtful approach both from meticulous. And kind of this reliability sustainability operability perspective. But also in terms of building automation that does the work for us versus triggering someone to come do the work on the systems. It's telling about your career that I know many of the companies that you've worked at. And I can think of at least two where I can imagine you getting paged, so many times that your phone runs out of battery, but these days, it seems like many companies are able to get to a state where there is much less stress on the on. Call rotations largely due to an improvement in technology like cloud products have gotten more reliable Cooper, Netease has been pretty helpful continuous delivery practices. A lot of cultural practices, like DevOps kind of things. Do you do still have outages at stripe? Do people still get paged at night, or has the infrastructure gotten hardened enough where people, you know, it is a rare occurrence where you actually get woken up in the middle of the night. For just responding to say of systems, giving more reliable over time. I think what I've seen is actually a little bit like the no sequel movement. Like, you know, a decade ago when people say like sequel to is too hard or doesn't work at scale. So we're going to build these systems that are so constrained, you can only do things that work at scale kind of hard to work with there. I think what's happened with a lot of these dynamic distributed systems. Is that not that stuff's gotten more reliable, but they're actually designed acknowledging this stuff is not reliable at all. Under Neath the hood, Rayleigh auto scaling groups. You have kind of, like load balancers that can route around like things that are not healthy. I think we've moved onto this model or instead of building on unreliable things as if they were reliable. We, we've just started building unreliable things acknowledging their unreliable, and that's created rebuffed systems, even though the components are, are not robust at all individually, so actually think you mentioned cultural kind of practices. And I think that cultural practices, I think, you know, best embodied by kind. Fault, engineering movement that's been developing are really, what's made us more reliable, not actually anything working better. It's like just being honest about what does or doesn't work in terms of kind of outages at stripe on, we have something that I think is one of our best kind of things that we've done internally in sometime, which is we have like a release strong incident program. So every time there's an incident we do an after action review. We'd ride it up. We have critically mediations that are like, what would we need to do to make sure that if we had something similar happen, again, it would not result in an incident on, and then we use this to drive learning. And I think there's this idea that incidents are inherently bad in making sure that incidents don't impact users incidents that impact users are inherently bad, and we need to make sure that doesn't happen on, but incidents or actual invest powerful systems for learning. It's really think of as an engine of learning that drives understanding distributed systems is how they fail. And if, if they're not feeling like you don't have a distributed system, or you. Aren't changing it very much. So really I actually think whenever we stop having enough incidence. We would change our classification to make sure we have more on in terms of, like, how think about this taxonomy of incidence, because we learned so much from them, we actually want to keep harvesting the learnings from these. But that said, there's a huge difference unit incident as something to learn from an incident that impacts our users in ensuring that, that is not the case that we're having insensitive packing. Users is really like the, the number one thing I think about number two security of razors is number one reliability strong. Number two, you kind of top of mind literally the time. As a software. 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Why do engine teams get less productive rather than more productive? When they add engineers to the team, they're just kind of, like two reasons why teams get less productive. I there's a classic mythical man month on Fred Brooks. There's communication overhead having more people communicating on stuff on the other bit is just training like each person who joins take some period of time where you have to invest into them coming up to speed on your technology, your approach before they become like net positive. And I think depending on how quickly growing sometimes you're going very quickly. These hyper growth, scenarios, your training is not something you've invested in. You actually think it's slower overtime, you have more and more people who haven't finished ramping, but it's so hard to ramp on your kind of complex to, to, to learn systems. Destroy do anything unusual managing its code based, you have a mono repo. Or do you have lots of small repose? Straightens mostly Amano repo. There are a few things that kind of have spun out historically that we haven't fully brought back in, we find there's a lot of leverage for the Monterey pro and I think it's important to decouples Eddie, like mono service, Amano repo on keeping the code together. In one place allows you to do in one single commit kind of code modification across the entire corpus, which is a really powerful tool for automated refashioning on worth. You have many especially if you want complete migrations, essentially completely migrations, it's just so much simpler than having to coordinate, many small pieces dig into that a little more detail. Explain why that's important. So if you think about a big change that we made two or three years ago is we wanted to move from one kind of method one client library for writing to our on our backend database to a new one in the new one had his interesting property, which is like every query, we were performing with statically types, so we could actually kind of make assertions about the types. Of data that would get written in good actually check that would only writing in the types of data that we expected to through the library that was used by a bunch of different teams within the company, and it was used by every single interaction with the database across many different on hundreds or thousands of different kind of models that knew how to serialize themselves into the database, and so being able to do that centrally from one team wrote like a you know, one of the coolest technologists out there and there's a great. There's a great paper from Google about claiming him are at scale is just like rewriting the AST with software and you can actually do this very complicated migration in relatively easy way with no errors, if you kind of used these sorts of tooling and there's doing it with there's writing it up, as easy often on within like rolling it out across many serve money. Kind of different repositories be very complicated. You have to land review like hundreds of different patches. This is where this kind of the classic every company that has to get great managing varies or great managing Amano rebel there. Both quite challenging different ways, and stripe has really gone down to the Monterey side of things versus the library, kind of diaster Zeph in the early days, it was at winery earliest, but so this is one thing. I've found really fascinating like Google's Monory PO Facebook because Montereau stripe is gone from honorable, but most people are not monitoring PO and a lot of it seems to be well, I don't know why that is. But some of it certainly has to do with the fact that the tooling is really hard against the processor, any reflections on why. That is. Why is a mono repoed not more popular throughout the software industry? I think one of the advantages of the kind of micro repo or whatever you wanna call it model where you have many repositories is one very clear ownership or this is like, Mike team service might teams like repository. We manage it too, though, the tooling really does work better for smaller positive worries. End until a company gets to be quite large. You usually can tooling, you mean like the SAS in past services that are available in the public not like you're awesome, cool, Google tool that they just wrote a paper. That's exactly right. And so one of the challenges of dealing with a large Montereau is the like get H G like these tools, actually don't work super well at a certain size or end up, having, like, Microsoft stunned, some really cool work around. Like, how do you scale get? And this is because because they migrated to get recently like fairly recently. But these tools that just aren't meant to be supporting like thousands of commits per per day, with, like, very large number of files, and your build infrastructure, your CI CD on your containers. There's all the stuff that just doesn't work as well. Initially on a Moderato that you have to invest in, and then once you've invested in it, you can make it work just as well. And have all these advantages around kind of refashioning very quickly, but the advantage of small reposes you just don't have. Make that upfront investment, and they will work very well for a long time to hit the skill points on which are slightly different in that case that you're not going to have the skill point around like the Git or your build or Jenkins or something instead, you're going to have, like, how do I actually coordinate package upgrades? And how do I deal with upgrading hundreds or thousands of services? This is a really complicated problem get emails. You wake up to an Email. It's like this service has been updated. Please import the new package. Please run your unit tests to make sure it didn't break an ear dependencies. And you're like, oh, God. I think at a certain scale what you have to do for either is not that different is just, I think the, the smaller repository model lets you push off longer. If most of the vast majority of companies never get to scale which I think is just kind of objectively true, most companies are never going to have thousand engineers pushing off this thing you might not ever need. I think is a pretty rational decision, but at a certain size, I think the tooling able to build around Monory Bose is just so strong. From a workflow perspec-. That is hard to replicate. I think a good example is like if using thrift jerky, you have these ideals reach service, media update it in a lot of companies have this work lower. You update it in this report, the updated the service update this client repo, and then every client repo news update. And then, like, some the client was never update because the team's working on it or like doing something else, you can never actually get any anyone up graded, if monetary can actually do it all at once. And so I think there's a huge power for larger organizations in a monetary. Bo. That is very hard to replicate in the larger proliferation. Yeah. In this is the example you were giving before. I interrupted you is like you had this client library, and win the client library, got updated because you have a mono repo you can essentially do find replace in the entire repo. And instead of me in the world with the small multi, repose, waking up to an Email that says, please import the new library and tested I wake up to. Says your code was updated, it works just fine carry on with your day, and your faster service. So Netflix has actually, as I understand it on solved the ladder problem, you're scrubbing, although there are a huge like innovative company that has the resources to solve it. So they actually there. Multiple. Right. They are. And they've solved it on by automatically upgrading basically automatically merging in version library upgrades. But the only way to do that, as having like immense confidence in your tests, where they can actually merge in automatic, deploy this upgraded version for every service, depending on it because they have so much confidence in their tests. And this is where I'm going back to chaos engineering. Going back to like, if you actually design stuff to fail frequently and test that properly fails, then you can do things like this. But the this is a very hard one property like not many companies could say, hey, I'm gonna upgrade a hundred services and automatically deploy them. And I trust if they successfully deploy it works. Like very few companies can say that on. But in their case, they've done the work to preserve that property and their, their fleet of services, and it gives them the ability to build his automating, or they can have kind of the advantages of the Montereau with the kind of the Pali repo strategy. He so I think of Netflix is one of the most evangelical companies when it comes to platform engineering they really talk a lot about their strategy to platform engineering, just to go a little bit deeper on this, because you do foundation engineering, which is stripes version of platform engineering. Are there any inspirations you take from Netflix, or do you know any notable ways in which your, your strategy around platform, engineering differs from that of inflicts? I think the thing that Netflix has been on most prominently, visible around on is really their chaos engineering in. That's something where we have adopted a number of their practices. I think if you start looking at the details like there's the spinnaker deployment tool that they built like it doesn't quite fit with our aesthetics around deployment, like we're more kind of container oriented, and that is more a little bit VM oriented. But I think the design ideas behind much of their software is very comparable to ours. And I think particularly when I think about what makes them really effective, and I think what has made stripe really effective. Is this willingness to go further into making the workflows great in? So I think something strikes him working on for the last year and a half is the survey project road, actually added on static typing to our ruby code this, which has allowed this huge amount of leverage. I think having the ambition to actually be. Hey, our software works this way. But can we actually make? Meaningfully better in this really difficult. But like highly impactful way in an actually execute on it on. So I think having that ambition to not just accept the constraints that people are familiar with or kind of started talking about this. Not just cargo cult what good looks like. But actually having the courage to dream of something being better than it is for the industry in successfully. Execute it is what to me kind of represents like these best engineering organizations in what we're capable of when we are not constrained, by what we've seen before, isn't it fascinating trend that we moved from popularization of Java type language to popularization of ruby python Java script back to popularization of well, I guess, now it's more like optional typing. It's like choose your own adventure type script sorbet is the is the ruby thing. I mean why? You think that is I guess I guess optional typing is just the best of both worlds. Well, it's kind of interesting, and just as a quick, thought the other interesting thing happening like web assembly is like, now we're moving into strongly typed languages. Again, we're like web assembly that kind of immoral restrained on these, like you see it's like embedded programming or something all over again right on. So it is there is like a cyclical nature to this. I think the thing that companies like about optional typing is that allows you to only pay the costs when you get the value. I think a lot of companies early on just are trying to run very quickly to build like their MVP to build at features as quickly as possible in the they don't have a lot of the problems that typing solves yet as could get more complicated. Not having typing means it's very hard to reason about changes. It's very hard to detect like certain categories of bugs, strong, typing eliminates entire categories of errors from your software entirely. You can still have other types of errors, but entire categories or just like eliminated can no longer try to call the string function on end. And this is just like really powerful in terms of reducing the ways that you fail. But, you know early on your code is simple enough that you don't run into those often. Anyway, you have so few people working on it that you don't run into them often anyway. Because the team has a high shared understanding of how the software works. And so I think white companies like optional typing get the full value of the dynamic typing early on with them. The costs to static typing. I think the cost is static, typing are a little bit overplayed. But the languages are often like a little bit less joyful to, to right in right. But then later, we can still get the value by adding them in. So I think it's purely just about this migration path, where your choice, then is like, hey, you have this giant, python this, you move from python to go or Java, or something or you move from python to type python. And that's just like a much lower lift and the risk of moving from python type. Python is like zero ish risk risque. It doesn't work but you've only lost effort. It's not like you have a partially implemented stock that doesn't work at all. Can do it in place. So I think making my Gration safe is so safe in cheap is huge. Part of what makes a successful infrastructure of engineering organization or unsuccessful one. I think that has been the biggest of these kind of gradual typing strategies slack has changed software engineering. Tell me an unusual way that stripe uses slack, stripes. Use of slack is fairly typical, I can think of two examples one, I think we have at least fifty different hotdog emojis, which is changing software engineering for, for the different. I don't know if this is for the better for the worst, you can do a lot with hotdog emojis. I have learned in the last six months, maybe more aspirational something for incident program. We have this great set of tooling about how do we actually manage incidents? And we integrate that like very tightly with slack. You go to this website. It's like very short form you fill out. And then you start this incident automatically to new slack room automatically invites necessarily people into that room in that room, we have a bunch of slack tools. Slash slash. I are dash command at post mortem items to review later. Oh, that's great. And like flagging you people can automatically send a notification internally. And so we just have all the tooling there where it's not like you have to bounce out in to buy that slack. But now yeah, we will consider selling it. And I'm sure I'm sure there's someone building this more widely. But this is like one of the cool things. All these companies have all these amazing internal tools. They build that they never generalize that like things like century, right? Like century that one point, I believe was like an internal the bug tool at discuss. I think that's true that then spins really. And then you just have all these things discussed the WordPress common company and pressure century out of out of discuss. Okay. But it's not just them. There's all sorts of. Oh, yeah. Spin out. But there's even more tools that haven't spent out that are equally. Cool that would be amazing if they did talk about monetary pose mean, Google has some great stuff for managing monetary posts that I'd love to have access to in basil is slowly trying to bring it to you right there. Like the diaspora of Google internal tools to open sources alive. And well, and I think, you know, basil is the open source version of blaze. Kuban Attias is kind of the open source version of a mega. There's all these things like slowly kind of creeping out. So if you just wait five to fifteen years, I think your wish will come true, but it could come a little bit faster. I suppose speaking, Google can you imagine a time when stripe might go multi cloud? Like, or are you multi cloud already? Do you go? Big Quarrier, manage tensor, flow, or anything long term. I think I don't know if you're a reader of s ones, but I am a eskimo to read them on my phone, and I can't find a is there a good way to read them on your phone. I. Saved a pocket and it's like doesn't really work open ride like it doesn't save where my AM and the s one like I need, like a kindle for s ones, basically. Yeah, this is your new product, idea, small addressable market. But, like very lucrative addressable market. I guess, but, you know, as you read those one of the interesting things that comes up is like people like have to state all the risks. And so, like, one of the risks that many companies talk about is there cloud contracts. And so, I think long term pretty much every company has to think about, as they get more mature like which clouds and how many like, what are the kind of the core business continuity, risks that you have to think about, and certainly for stripe, like we drink less cost. Utopia for cost perspective. So if you if you look at some, the reason s ones, typically, their actual cost their contract size will be mentioned in which providers are operating with. So the gold standard from an S one perspective is to have a very small commitment into beyond like many, many clouds, and if you're on enough different clouds, you might not even mention which clouds are on. Right. Where if you're only on one you like after mentioned, kind of in kind of the risk perspective, which one. So it's a really I think that is the gold standard for any company that is getting larger the other thing that I think is really interesting to think about is that as data localization kind of becomes an increasingly important topic around the world every cloud provider is not in every country might wanna operate in in. There's a lot of pressure. I think to think about multi cloud from that perspective as you look at entering more and more countries, which providers are actually there. I think seeing the oh, gosh providers, expands to address the need of their user is around two local station as to me, one of the coolest things happening in the cloud space last. A couple of years, right? Yeah. So you're going to have to like write rewrite some stripe services to write to Alibaba, bucket storage instead of s three for example, there are a lot of cloud providers at their Alibaba, Azure TCP Amazon, there's just like more and more as you start looking at some of these other markets in China's definitely great example of a market, where I actually Amazon, Azure are both in China. I forget, if Google is offhand I thought Amazon Amazon is not anymore. I don't think I think they pull out didn't they sell every oh, maybe the soul in somebody else's maintained so. As of four years ago, which is the last time I deeply understood this AWS, but he operated in China, but it's a different company that is not technically AWS, but the code is shared, the interactions or shared, etc. But I think this is definitely an area where the lines are at times blurry and like a little bit confusing to understand, you know, your book had a ton of material and obviously, we're not gonna be able to get to even a fraction of it. So I certainly, you know, for anybody who's in your book, I see a struggle to calcified by how to think about engineering management. It's almost like your book is like the girdle Escher Bach of engineering management. It's just like it seems like you cannot find the contours of this thing is a might reading it correctly. I think that's right for. That, that's a comparison that I would like gratefully accept if anyone wants wants to make it, but yeah, I really I really do agree. I think injuring management is largely like making good decisions for this rapidly changing onset of folks, that you're responsible for supporting within a larger set of folks responsible for partnering with within a larger set of folks trying to do something with business. So I think just the the different shapes of the decisions on the different shapes of the people in their needs. And like the company's needs like all of it, this is so complicated that I think. You know, a lot of what I see as good management is. That's like understanding different types of shapes. Let's figure out like a process that we found for finding good answers to them. There's not like one answer. There's not even like fifty answers. There's kind of infinite different approaches. That's by having great fundamentals in great kind of values of how we wanna make decisions that we can find appropriate solution each one. I'm a strong lever that if you understand the constraints finding the solution is usually simple. But it's often very hard to understand the constraints. And so, to me, a lot of the book is about how do we think through what we really are trying to accomplish in the things that make that hard clearly, and then we can find the answer that is fairly straightforward. But if we don't understand our own reality in an honest authentic way, we can actually make solutions that work last question. If you had to leave stripe today in start your own business. What would it be? So four years ago, my answer to this question was on a kind of eight geopolitically shorted database where, you know, all this data localization on regulation coming out is meeting almost every company has to solve this data locality problem in their own way. Like, imagine what it would be like if you had a database because plug into that would chard in recharged all your data automatically according to the shifting geopolitical on requirements like every company. This is like, so one of the things stripe thinks about how do we increase the GDP of internet in part of that is, like, making it easier for small companies compete effectively with larger companies? And this is to me like this core thing, that's gonna make a very hard for small startups today to compete with Facebook Google. No. Microsoft is regulatory capture. They just can't invest the legal and technical like costs to actually solve for this. This is where GDP are seemingly actually not that onerous. For the largest companies that was meant to regulate, but is very onerous disaster, comp weather, disaster at are bearing the brunt with very few resources. So I, I really think that there is something very powerful here. Could be quite important to making it easier for folks to get online run their business and stay online. More countries overtime we to those four years ago. Yeah. The thing I think about more recently is a very, very small, but there's systems dynamics is kind of this study of kind of systems thinking whatnot. And like, how do you actually model like rural situations? And it useful air that the tooling for systems thinking is, is pretty bad. Honestly, there's a couple of companies that are quite small that have been kind of updating their software for some time originally built, you know, fifteen twenty years ago and typically the per head cost licenses, three four thousand dollars. What is it software? Do it lets you design in run models. A good comparable I. Think could be like Omni graph which is totally different software, but that's kind of the complexity of the software. It's like Omni grapple the most expensive software, but that's not an operating system. I think it's like two or three hundred dollars autograph now which is a lot. But like you think really well worth it. But then these like modeling software is like an order of magnitude more ends like that. None of the software is like, kind of native, look and feel all kind of like custom, like gooey components built from, like literally two decades ago. Plus I, I really just love to build a modern version of that is usable in, you know, price delegate delightful like two digit price, not like a I don't know four four digit price. Cool. Well, I that is a software category. I know nothing about so I'll have to look into it. This is by not building. It says offer category that doesn't exist. But I like it except in the world of Omni gravel said the software here would be like Stella, Stella on is kind of a good example is down Dell is what is that Stella dot? Com forgo game. But dental does. All right. Stella in the cabin systems management. Yeah. This ranking system lambing. Okay. All right. It's really cool stuff, but mostly I think used by researchers. And folks in academia, this point. Okay. Well, we'll Larson. Thanks for writing a great book, thanks for coming on the show. Thank you so much for having me. Go CD is a continuous delivery tool from thought works. If you have heard about continuous delivery, but you don't know what it looks like an action, try the go CD test drive at go CD dot org slash s daily. Go CDs test-drive will set up example, pipelines for you to see how go CD manages your continuous delivery workflows visualize, your deployment pipelines and understand which tests are passing and which tests are failing continuous delivery, helps you release your software faster and more reliably checkout. Go CD by going to go CD dot org slash daily and try out go CD to get continuous delivery for your next project.
Ep. #27 - The Rise Of Rivian
"Hello everybody welcome to the show. This is the m thirty one podcast presented by thirty when media bringing the latest in science space and technology. I'm your host NICB anoint and on today's episode we have a very interesting a mix of topics so you know generally episodes that are either all tack all space all science something like Trans they pretty consistent. Maybe throw a product in that I recommend at the the end but on today's episode we're going to start off and we're going to cover an update on Ribian which is an electric car maker that we covered a few months back in an older episode and there's a pretty big update from them. We're GONNA cover that I and they were going to completely change tracks to the science and space side of things and we're gonNA talk about an exit plan. Discovery Excellent called K. to eighteen so we saw this in the news in the last week or two. I want to give an update and kind of maybe break it down for those of you who are listening to this for more of the space science astronomy side of things so we're gonNA cover that as well and at the end I've got a product update as well so what kind of tie it all together a lot of updates kind adam accumulated in my phone and my note so yeah we're GonNa Bring that episode so oh in the before we start all that I just WanNa do a quick housekeeping thing and there's a new version of the M thirty one media APP. I was working on this past weekend. Big changes were ready for Iowa's thirteen importantly ready for that sweet sweet dark mode looks great. I think it looks really hot. If I say so myself compared to the light motor what kind of passage isn't meant it looks better in the dark. I think looks better in dark mode so real happy with that and a few other you I change. They think chains fonds make it more readable spend more time in the operating some of the the event descriptions things like that. I think we're GONNA be ready for the APP store. We're going to admit again. We've tried a couple of times you know with my first APP. I'm learning a lot in apple's requirements and they can be pretty strict on a few different things so I kind of want to come back and really put a lot of new before I submitted again so you know the things like the push notifications adding the calendar sharing events. I added in some other other things like the showing the recent updates if you more tabs CBS just trying to build up the APP flush out make it more fulsome. I've got other ideas too but I think this is a pretty good juncture to try again so I'll be meeting that and then you can you know as I've heard from you guys delete test flight off your phone visit only Beta app you use so hopefully you can do that soon. So without further ado that's the Oh and if you don't have have the Beta once again that's. WWW dot the future calendar dot com slash Beta and you can download that download and give me any feedback. I'd love to hear from you. I think now and I was thirteen even give you a way to do it right in the APP so Rain Tesla so yeah check that out thank hopefully something APPs sourcing all right so our first story story. Today is an update as promised on Ribian so Ribian once again if you're not familiar giving me a quick update is an electric car maker manufacturers manufacturer startup there actually about a decade old but they really came to prominence in the L. A. Auto show which was last November November of two thousand eighteen so not that long ago got right they burst onto the scene with two vehicle prototypes one called the R. One s and another one called our won t so the are one s is their air electric. Suv and the are won t critically as their electric pickup truck which would also make the first electric pickup truck on the market so before you know the electrified Ford F one fifty that's that's in the works before Tesla's pickup truck electric pickup truck which we should hear more more about you know maybe four five weeks or southbound time Abyan end of October early November so this is significant right. I mean this is one of them was big like one of the largest market segments for auto manufacturers in the US so really when they came onto the scene. That's got a lot of hype instantly. You know they've been around around. If you read their wikipedia go back and look at their company history they kind of changed names a couple times but they've secured an old Mitsubishi Factory in Illinois that got other development in in California for autonomous technologies. I think they're up to something like a thousand employees so you know not a garage but still you know they never made a car. They have to nice prototypes got a lot of journalists to write a lot of articles. Make people made a bunch of youtube videos about them at the L. A. Auto Show but you know they've made a car yet. So why would you know there's a lot of electric carmakers right like this right. There's Biden next faraday future lucid motors. I mean there's a whole list of companies of exciting prototypes. That haven't done anything they made made a single car right. So why would I focus focusing an episode on Ribian and why would what to me makes them stand out and I'm going to tell you so so right away. That was in November. If you follow the timeline of events here if you just follow the money in who's investing in in looking riven that's what draws my attention so the first one that comes up in February of two thousand eighteen you have Amazon lead seven hundred million dollar investment round into riven okay. That's pretty significant right. You know you have Jeff Jeff. bezos world's richest man dumping his money dumping a large funding round seven hundred million dollars in a single round just months after the show into Ribian caught my attention attention okay now fast forward to April twenty nineteenth only two months later you have Ford lead a five hundred million dollar round into riven. Okay Okay now within two months. They've just raised one point two billion dollars I mean that's far more than even the largest. IPO as if you were to go public okay so then that was that was that was already significant deficient fast forward a few more months to just a few weeks ago in September of two thousand nineteen. You have another three hundred fifty million dollar round led by Cox Automotive Cox Automotive have owned brands. You probably know Kelley Blue Book you know other Internet properties affiliated with cars and may have other technology related in the auto space so again so now you're up to total in less than a year from that auto show where they have still yet to produce a single car had a lot of hype lot of press around the are won t in our one ass. They've raised one point five five billion dollars from these three pretty significant companies in across just three separate funding rounds. I mean that's that's that's incredible incredible. I it's just like that doesn't happen for someone who reads a lot like techcrunch wired and follows funding rounds and kind of I mean I'm not in the car space per se but I'm following allowing you know like tech investment and looking at all the stuff like there aren't many companies putting up those kind of numbers. I mean outside of your your late stage Uber's near. We works things like that. Companies that have more more mature. They have a product now millions of users buildings downloads. Whatever metric you WANNA use once again? I can't stress this enough. Riviera has sold zero cars ever right right. I mean I know it takes a lot of capital to start a car company but it's just the names behind it to especially the Amazon Ford for one right like a company trying to make the electric f one fifty which would be a direct competitor to our won t this upcoming ribian truck rates this is this is pretty crazy right so this got my attention already and I was already probably going to do a podcast about them. Just because of all of this going on all the money they're raising all the buzz and then just past week we had kind of the biggest announcement that that really they pushed over the edge Amazon through Jeff bezos announced that they're going to order they're placing an order for a hundred thousand electric delivery vans from riven so one hundred thousand right that sounds like a lot but maybe not too many right because you know there are millions of cars on the road sold every year but just to put that in perspective for Amazon to buy one hundred thousand electric delivery vans and essentially make their entire delivery fleet electric for reference right you'd think of Fedex ups as the two cops right doing logistics and delivery every Fedex has about eighty five thousand vehicles on the road and UPS has about hundred twenty thousand vehicles on the road so oh fred one hundred thousand electric delivery vans Amazon just made themselves kind of like the third competitor not that they weren't already but I mean really cemented as another index and and ups basically can be do all the deliver a lot of the deliveries themselves which obviously is probably good for their business model 'cause they were you know they're so reliant on these shipping and logistics providers so this is crazy. This is a huge orange all going to Riviera and the van they're designing for Amazon exclusive Amazon so they're only going to make it for Amazon Zahn. They'RE GONNA make one hundred thousand and those are going to start being delivered in twenty twenty one so things like that raising that kind of money securing that those kind of orders I especially with the backing of a company like Amazon where this is going to be that or that's going to obviously be the cornerstone order to give other customers the confidence to order vehicles from ravine Vian just kind of gives them that that stake in the market the other some other automakers or other upstarts just don't have and these are the kinds of things that grabbed my attention for for taking them mm seriously for treating them as if they're a true I can see them as being this other. You know only electric car maker similar like Tesla right like obviously other other automakers are go electric but this kind of puts them in that same space as I see them being kind of a sense like another like another one. That's just pure electric startup so it's exciting right really cool cool to say right so this is extremely difficult to do. I mean you can look at all kinds of other ones that failed next to tesla so you have fisker Faraday Future and actually recently lucid motors was another one that was looking like it was set to fail and run out of funding but then they raise a billion dollars from the Saudi Sovereign Wealth Fund so so in the end is looks like their first vehicle out soon so it was very difficult right. I mean in that case they got in essentially almost saved bailed out by the Saudis looking to diversify out of oil but but outside of something like that I mean this is really industry. Buying you have Amazon you have Ford you have Cox Automotive. You have all these people adjacent in the auto space or looking to do snoop delivery and they're the ones betting on Ribian and then when you dig in a little bit further outside of you know kind of the surface level money in the product they're. CEO Joan founder is a guy called RJ Ska rindge. This is the name you might WanNa remember. He's only thirty six years old and if you go read kind of like watch videos read profiles profile on the guy came at Mit. PhD In mechanical engineering the profiles make them seem to be one of those kind of product visionary inspiring type hype leaders. I mean I don't WanNa already put them in kind of jobs in Muskie and type place but just you know the the they make him out to kind of not just your dime a dozen startups. CEO's or something like like that so you know exciting CEO at the helm of this. I mean you really get into kind of an exciting story so when people ask me like how I would look at companies or what I think about or what stands out or what I want to make a podcast about these are all the kinds of things that cumulate over time where I'm kind of like I just put it away in the back of my brain like that's another five hundred million for riven another another three hundred fifty million from Ford. That's interesting. They're making the direct competitor to that vehicle right. So these are the kinds of things to kind of make you stop and go. How does this fit in with everything I've read about this company company and that's significantly different than the other startups in the space so that's what I'm watching? I think they're building real momentum in a way their competitors are not not and so I would just say put them on your radar. Watch that watch this space. I'm sure they're GONNA be raising more money. They're probably announce new products and they're going to be here for for the long haul and if you have an extra seventy thousand lying around you can also preorder the first electric pickup truck in the market so yeah the priorities are available now for the R. won not but for now we'll just you know. Hopefully you'll see him on the on the roads at some point they're looking to start production and give them the first ones to customers the end of twenty me twenty so actually just about a little over a year from now so we'll see how that goes but that's the update on Ribian so just keep an eye on them. quick update just wanted to give you the heads up on a company on. I'm watching in getting really excited about so completely changing years here so if you're if you're here more for the start up in the business and the technology side of things this is the astronomy let me science. you know completely other side of things so we're gonNA talk about the discovery of an exoplanet called Ketu eighteen be that that was there was a couple of papers released on it a couple of weeks ago and these come out once in a while you've probably seen them. various extra plants set new discovering them all the time right so one of the big discoveries discoveries of the past few decades is our planets that orbit other stars. We didn't even know that until the mid nineties and now we know they're everywhere there's more than there are stars in the sky so there's just we find them all the time and the occasionally one makes makes makes the press because you know there's one that's closer to the size of earth. There's one that's pretty close to us. You know they said all these kind of firsts so it's you know it's like you know very click baby for journalism. That's doesn't take that much time to investigate the paper and and what it stands for an actual science behind it so you know it's really easy to say like you know closest. Extra plants Earth ever found only four light years away right like they make a make Click Beatty type headline out of Ood Science. I'll oh click that like I'll look read about that a little bit and that's all in their kind of banking. I'm not you know for you. Know people who follow this more closely are really into science. It's kind of like pop science right so if you're listening to this. Maybe you know willing to listen to me. Talk about a little bit more not that I'm trying to make it very luxury or things like that but I'm coming out because I wanted to see if you read this article or you did see this discovery. It may not be exactly what we I thought and I WANNA put that in context of a little bit of background Ronnie and what this could mean for excellence moving forward discovery so a little background this exoplanet K. to eighteen B was discovered one hundred ten light years away so close in cosmic terms and the big headline on this one was that is the first time that water vapor has been discovered discovered in the atmosphere of an extra planet with the radius close to Earth's in the habitable zone of its star so there's a little bit unpack there if you're not familiar with Astronomy Toronto and some of these terms while from water vapor right that's significant because we kind of have this idea that we need water for life as we know it so finding water vapor in the atmosphere another planet is kind of a good check in the box for for maybe finding life right in the atmosphere of a super earth exoplanet so what does that mean so so basically right like there's just different size planets in different radius and diameter so this one happens to be two point seven times the radius of the Earth so closer oh sure to earth sized and something like a Jupiter Neptune Neptune or Jupiter something much larger which again like we want if we're looking for things like earth all we know to find life is fine things that are like Earth so the closer it is earth where like okay good another. Maybe a box. We don't really know what we're looking for right so we just not copy. What Earth looks like? It's kind of like the natural you you know. Everyone thinks they're geniuses at NASA the obvious things if you're like what would you do to look for life will just copy earth like find all the same things so okay. It's got to be like the same diameter of the same size okay so that's the that's the next thing pretty close right two point seven times okay habitable zone okay. This one's a little bit more complex so basically the habitable zone is the rain the distance from a star that a planet could have liquid water on surface okay so that distance changes based the type of star that the planets orbiting so on for the sun were perfectly in the habitable zone as you would expect liquid water everywhere oceans dominate the planet were. That's why we're here right habitable because to us this planet orbits much much closer to its star so it has a thirty three day orbit so there's a thirty thirty three year for context mercury right the mercury is close plan to the sun here has about a ninety day orbit so three times further away than this exoplanet is from its star and we know mercury around the sun is like eight hundred degrees or something crazy like that so it all depends on the kind of star orbiting so this the stars orbiting is a much cooler Red Dwarf Star so it can it can be much closer but still have liquid water surface so no that was a lot really fast so basically cool dim star you could still could water if you're even though you orbit much closer to it so it's a much less energetic powerful star than our sun one of the basic astronomy. There's like seven different types of stars. There's nuance but they're essentially lettered. Ob A F G K M Oh is the brightest it is largest hottest is the coolest smallest burns the longest we're right in the middle. We're G and then this m-type so it's the coolest smallest lists burns the longest. It's like just a super long candle. It can burn forever but it also is really dim and so the habitable zone is much closer around its star than something like us type or you know. Oh is burned so quickly. I don't even know if they can really pat plant developed planets around them they're gone ten million years so little little overview on astronomy. They're so that's that's kind of breaking that down so just to say it one more time they found water vapor. Check around the atmosphere of a super earth kind of check in the habitable zone check so all exciting stuff and all of these were first and the hadn't been found in one place altogether so boom put your bad headline. Go Get your views. Do Your your pop science journalism for the day but then of course this gets extrapolated to have things like best candidate yet for finding alien life potentially habitable world right. That's the kind of stuff that gets thrown around so I just read you. What actually you know the sentence that actually happened and then that's what that gives turned into when it gets click bait journalism so now let's UNPACK Y? You know not quite that far. It's not really finding something that kind of alien life so at a radius of two point seven times that of the earth it's more it's closer to a Neptune probably than it is like earth so might not have a surface. It's atmospheres probably really just hydrogen and helium so likely it's inhospitable to life is we. We know it so boom right off the bat. Not that's one strike against it. with when a planet only has thirty three day orbit to its star so being that much closer. It's likely tightly locked so you're familiar with this already like the moon is tightly walked the earth so we only ever see one side of the moon right doesn't it doesn't just orbit around us it orbits around us also spin on its axis right only like the rotation matches ashes that of the as it goes around earth so you only ever see one side so same thing with this planet so you only ever see one side or only face star so once I'd be super continuous he was daylight and then one side would be continuous darkness facing space right so you can imagine that orbit which makes it also terrible for life so one side super hot all the time in one side's super cold whole facing space so that's another strike against it not great for life also being that close to a star not great for radiation we take for granted like that. We're not like you know just getting cancer all the time because of radiation being blocked by the atmosphere when you're that close to your star Star always sending out all kinds of stuff like a lot of like stellar activity and radiation so if you're that close you that plan is likely being bathed and just continuous radiation which would be extremely disruptive to sell your processes sees biology once again everything we know about science and life as we know it so once again all of this adds up to like not a hostile place where we're GonNa go and land like a spaceship and like meet the Little Green Aliens Right so basically I just wanted to point this out of it is exciting it is I like finding water vapor on such a small relatively small plant. It's up to the smallest they've ever found or confirmed water vapor on before like it is a I it should be reported on. It's exciting but the press always wants to take that extra shortcut right like it needs to get more clicks. It's not as exciting to say they found a planet where you would die of radiation and cancer and it's really hot and always faces star a right. It's just like no. There's no room the nuance and the science I hope I don't think that was that complicated right. Even if you don't have any interest in astronomy or anything like that like it's not that hard to get the actual story but of course we live living just click click based world so and why point this out is one day like I'm pretty confident with all the extra planets out. There were GonNa find the one that checks all the boxes X.'s right. It's GonNa be about the radius of the earth. It's going to be in its habitable zone. It's going to have liquid water in the atmosphere. It's going to check everything we think we need. We need to go find life and like look harder and you know do do you look for that kind of thing and then we can be all excited and we found the one that just like ours found the goldilocks planet but until that time you know I'm sure we're GONNA have more false alarms so I'm basically bringing this up because I know you'll see articles in the New York Times and wired all all these kind of places that kind of cover these things and generally they do a decent job but basically it's like. I WanNa just pointed out so when we talk about these again or you see it yourself. Delve you have the tools to kind of think about it. You can check these boxes of like you know once again. It's not that like obviously there's nuance to it but it's just not that hard relative to what they make. You believe it's like what does NASA doing literally. They're just thinking about like this planet earth and they're trying to apply it and find it elsewhere in the universe in the solar system in the in the galaxy right so they're just looking for earth again so same temperature looking for water. Don't WanNa die. Radiation don't want to burn up in boyle the he don't WanNA freeze to cold like a pretty obvious things so it's gotta check all those boxes so I'm just actually read the articles in like go through and generally people are going for clicks so anyway that's KTAR eighteen be you know gotta cover more astronomy stuff. It is the thirty one podcasts after all so definitely gonNA bring more space space story so hope okay enjoyed that one so I did. I promise a quick product recommendation product update so this one was on an episode of Knicks Picks few months ago so I made a podcast APP recommendation some indication for a podcast APP called pocket casts in the big complaint at the time was that I was recommending a paid APP and I know everyone hates paying money for apps even if it's just the dollar. This won't happen to be dollars but it's the best podcast APP right. It's got the best you I it works great with carplay. You've got that the the notifications consistently gently work in the ones. I've tried compared to like the crappy apple default podcast APP overcast. You know there's a bunch of there's a bunch of free ones out there and this is the one I've liked the most and yeah I- ponied up and paid the four bucks but I'm here with the update that podcast is gone free so I recommend it and there's really nothing stopping you from going in downloading it and trying it for yourself. If you hate paying for APPs or Kinda just refuse to so it's pocket casts pocket Ca Ah Space C. A. S. T. C. A. S. T. S. casts and so don't get confused. There is a podcast premium. The part of it don't like that's not you don't really need that. It's kind of more aimed at power users for like the desktop APP and kind of other lesser-used things I'd say for like an average user like an average users daily needs this would be met by the free version by itself more than enough to get the job done so just a quick update if you didn't try it if you're listening to a lot of podcast and you haven't settled on an APP or don't really like but we're satisfied with the one you're using. I would encourage you to go. Try podcast again and now it's free so really no reason not to trust quick update on on podcasts all right. Thanks Israel's in kind of a mix of things once again if you haven't download the Beta for the thirty one media APP already that's. WWW dot the future gap calendar Dot com slash Beta download test flight try the APP out I think it looks great in in the dark mode I was thirteen. I'm always looking for bugs looking to improve it and I'm going to be the APP store again again. So hopefully you can download it straight up from the APP store at some point shortly in the future so they can roll off listening. Thank you for supporting warning if you can leave those reviews on I tunes or send me feedback. you know my my email. I think is in the APP but it's also nick ninety four at DOT com. You can leave feedback in Tusla now for the APP so all that's great we'll be back against doing more content and thank you
A Fiat Chrysler Merger With Renault Would Create 3rd Biggest Car Maker
"Support for this podcast and the following message come from American pest as the leading provider of safe, sustainable pest control solutions across the DMV. Let American past help you to take back your home or business from menacing pests visit them today at American pest dot net. Fiat Chrysler is proposing a merger with the French automaker Renault, Reynaud says it's considering it, this merger would be a big deal. It would create the world's third biggest car company after Toyota and Volkswagen. Here's NPR's Camilo domino, sqi, a merger this big would be striking, but not totally surprising. Fiat Chrysler has been looking for a partner for a while. And there, there are limited partners available. Michelle crabs is an analyst with auto trader and Cox automotive. She says, meanwhile, the French Renault had a long standing alliance with the Japanese automaker Nissan that was working. Well, and then things went awry, when former CEO Carlos gone was arrest. Sted in Japan for alleged financial misdeeds and things have just been unraveling now both fiancee's and Reynaud are eyeing their options when it comes to who though partner with as they prepare for big changes in the industry. Many major, automakers have already been partnering up over the last couple of years. There are two reasons first after years of record growth. The auto industry is starting to slow down and that decline is expected to continue. Meaning fewer car sales less revenue at the same time, automakers need to be making big investments in the future things like electric vehicles and self driving cars, and it's a tough one, because you're investing in something that isn't profitable today isn't going to be full tomorrow, but might be profitable might be essential in ten years time. Mark Wakefield is an automotive consultant at Alex, partner's upstart companies like tesla and even ride hailing services like Uber and lift. They're bringing new competition. In response established carmakers are closing ranks towards each other to be able to share costs and to be able to invest through this like on. That's really what's driving a lot of these merger discussions in partnership discussions to Reynaud has been making electric vehicles for years, while Fiat Chrysler, has been lagging behind its decided to focus on money-making brands like Jeep, and ram, big pickups, and SUV's. Plus, it has premium brands like Maserati Reynaud is pushing smaller low cost vehicles Fiat Chrysler thrives in the Americas. Particularly in the United States. Reynaud doesn't sell cars in North America at all. But it's a major player in Europe and Russia that also like a pretty good fit. One has small cars in the other big trucks, one offers luxury vehicles. The other goes down market, but they feel have problem which is trying to Felipe Munoz is an analyst at auto researcher Jada. Dynamics. He says, neither company has a foothold in the crucial Chinese market. Then there are the practical problems of merging and not in another culture. I know the more factories that's more people to teach to work together, which Fiat Chrysler, has to do already since the merger that made it back in two thousand fourteen Blyleven cries which are Italians on American that way only but he's not an easy thing. And it would be even harder if you try to preserve the French Renos alliance with Nissan of Japan, another complication Reynaud is part owned by the French government and has strong unions. The want to preserve local jobs, Fiat Chrysler says the deal if it happens would not result in any plant closures. Camilo dominancy, NPR news.
11.13.18 Used cars are costing more; Mailbox crimes; 3D printing glasses
"It's my pleasure to welcome you to the Clark Howard show where it's about you. And that Walla yours moon to learn ideas, mec- can keep more of what you make. We also have free off the air advice for you. That's available over forty hours each week. We talk with a member of team Clark, go Kark dot com. Scroll down a little you'll see the phone number hours each week day that free advice is available to you from a member of our team coming up in a few minutes. I wanted to tell you about a vulnerability going on right now with the US mail and why you should really look at walking mailbox and then later yet. The way you get glasses is starting to change. And I wanted to fill you in on the changes that are wallet friendly, and maybe fashioned friendly too. So new stats in. From research done by group called Cox automotive that finds that the average price people actually paid for a new vehicle last month was an all time unbelievable record amount of money thirty seven thousand oh, seven thirty seven thousand oh seven dollars. That is beyond my imagination that that's what kind of money people are paying. Because that is a frightening figure to deal with and. I I mean, you can't go back again because I can tell you the first property I ever bought was foreclosure that. I bought for thirty six thousand dollars for a two bedroom. One and a half bath condo in still own that all these years later. And now the average price of a new vehicle is exceeding that. So gosh, that's the problem. And so if you pay the average price of a new vehicle take it out on a five year loan your monthly payment. And I'm doing a very favorable interest rate to calculate the monthly payment. So when to make it is not as dreadful as possible is seven hundred and fifteen dollars and forty five cents a month for five years now, huge number of people aren't doing five year loans. They're doing six year longer loans. But if you did a six year loan, well what you're looking at. Then is the payment drops one hundred a month to six hundred thirteen dollars and thirty one cents a month in sane. That's before you deal with insurance. That's before you deal with gasoline or any other expenses that are involved with owning a vehicle so. That is as they say in football, bad, ugly and. I encourage you to really think through how does that affect your budget? Month after month. If you end up taking out debt of that extreme out and have that kind of payment and vehicles. We have that were really tired of often aren't tired themselves. Now, our producer Cam. Recently, hit the point for Cam vehicles are just transportation that is true. And you had a Toyota Yar s you call it. I call it yeras. I think it's s like a pirate the are right now. I have no idea. Anyway, it's a condo box Toyota. And you had it for how many years till it no longer was providing faithful service to you just shy of ten years in it is still providing faithful service, it's my partner, Sean via call that we had to replace. So he's going to be driving the yards now, and I got to shopping for and other car so the yards lives on. Yeah. It's doing great. So you decided that you wanted to see if you could top the thirty seven thousand seven and you bought a new vehicle fully equipped for v. Eighty one thousand of course, da. No, what did you do? I bought a used two thousand eighteen car for fifteen thousand dollars just shy with eleven thousand miles. So let's hit that number again, a twenty eighteen somebody hated it. They dumped it Levin thousand miles on it. And you buy it for fifteen grand. That's true that and the vehicle has it been so far on my gosh. It's amazing. 'cause it's been almost ten years since I bought a new car a lot has happened. And it's got all these bells and whistles that. I've never seen before. Mine. Toyota Yaris had crank windows and locks that I had to use you know, my finger. I know automatic lock. So that's a big upgrade for one. How about that? TV screen was that a surprise to u s you get to watch TV backing up and running things over. Yes. And I have not hidden anything with the. Yes. But it terrifies me like it's just for me. It's just another thing to look at. It's hard for me to adjust like looking over my shoulder versus looking at the screen. Do you do both? I just look at the screen just at the screen. Maybe I'll just to. I don't know. But it's a beautiful car. And I feel like I got a pretty good deal, and I'm gonna brag a little bit and tell you it's the first time I ever paid cash for car. I did not finance it. So you had enough resources that these monthly payments? I'm talking about that's not part of your life. No since I paid off the R s I started a savings account putting in the same amount that I was paying each month to pay off the R S for when I would need another car in. I hit that goal a little while ago and paid cash I did. So you have no payment coupon to worry about nothing. Nope. Congratulate shaky very much hope that your your new used car turns out to be a great experience like your prior one. Thank you so much, and at some point I want to chat with you about how I bought it. Because I did it completely online. But I think that's a story for another day. Yeah. That is a great story. That was good tease. Maybe you should consider this radio thing. Sinned who is with us on the Clark Howard show. Hi, how are you doing? Hi clark. Thank you for having me here. An thank you for your show this to the country. Oh, sure. Thank you. How can I serve you today? So I haven't Christian about sending money to India. I wanna do it every month. It's a small amount. But it has to be every mind. So I I've been doing this from pass a year and something happened last month, and I wanted to look from other options. I don't know if I can mention that somebody to which of a sending money not. Well, why don't we go on with the story? And then we'll talk about so some so you had a some kind of customer, no service problem with who you were using no happen. I mean, I'd be doing a say. Say say. And it was funny. Let's take a lot of time standing the lying. Doing all process. So what did I thought it goes to my phone and everything was fine on the last month? They're ready to do transactions last. I got hit with Pasha grand C O. Mitch never happened last month. If it happened this time. Stop suiting the whole last year. So I don't know what to do. All right. So let's talk this through there are now a lot of non Bank money transfer services. More Americans who have family or friends overseas. They want to send money to and it is so much cheaper than what banks charge to send money overseas. It's not even close, and I'm gonna give you the three that are the most aggressive and compare them to see which one seems best for you sending money to you said India, see, which one has the lowest overall cost and gives you the best exchange rate for sending money to India. One is operation owned by pay pal. Cold soom, X AM. Another one is remit -ly are EM IT L Y. And the third one is world remit W R L D remit Auriemma IT. Okay. Now, let me tell you another suggestion as well in. So what get all three of those you can send a generally with most of these the larger amount of money, you send at one time affectively, the lower the amount of fees and eating into the money. You're sending. But do you happen to have an account at Charles Schwab? But I'm not in. Right. So let me tell you. The thing was Schwab Schwab, if you were to is a relative, you're sending money to all right? So if you were to open an account, the you were the owner of and you had a parent on the account with you. View could supply apparent with an ATM card and Schwab charges, no ATM fees worldwide. They eat whatever ATM fees. The ATM your parents would use charge and they give you the official exchange rate. So a dollar here equals the exact equivalent amount of rupee for them taking money out. Oh, wow. So. Yeah. So if you have investments, you have an investment account, if you have one at Schwab that would then be a possible option for you, which would be so much cheaper. And as for other people listening to you and me, if they want to know, the names of these money changes we have these on Clark dot com for you to be able to see and compare for wherever in the world, you're sending money to from the US the banks are not competitive. These third party services offer a much better deal. Ron's with us on the Clark Howard show heireann. Hey for we start. I'll have to tell you that. I tease my mom about having a crush on. You. Oh, that's funny. Well, how can I be of service? Do you? Well, I'm planning on retiring that Stor possibly moving to Florida. And I've noticed that the I own the condo. And the units aren't selling as as a now there's four on the market, and I was kinda thinking about. Using a reverse mortgage and taking money to go buy place somewhere else, maybe in Florida. So and I read a place. Have to go ahead. One of your articles seem to suggest it reverse mortgages for really bad. Well, there are a last option. They're not a first option because reverse mortgages, come with extremely high up front fees, and they blow up on people a lot. So you have a property you own? You can't sell right now you'd like to buy a place in Florida, and what I would recommend something a whole lot simpler. Okay. And that is that if you wanna wait till market conditions, improve to sell the place that you're in now that you rent and Florida instead of by and the reason I would is that, you know, Florida such a diverse market and even within a metro area in Florida, the areas are so diverse, and where you think he wanna live could turn out to be very different. Anyway, if you weren't even asking me. About the place that you're trying to sell. But you don't think is a good time. And you told me you were thinking of moving to Florida, I would still tell you to rent not by for a while. Well, that's kind of interesting because that's another option. My sister has a condo in Pensacola, and I could probably rent out. We solved everything generating rental income for your sister. She knows that you're gonna be okay is brother, you've got a place to test drive, Florida. I think we got this done the reverse mortgage. Forget that thing. This episode is brought to you by slack the collaboration hub for work. No matter. What work? You do. Teamwork on slack happens in channels where your information and conversations are organized around projects offices and teams, and because everything you need to work is in one place. It's faster and easier to get things done designed to support the way people like you naturally work together slack makes collaborating with your colleagues online is easy and officiant as face to face. The more slack is used across a company the more value. It provides has tools and information shared by one department become accessible across departments. Helping teams worked together across locations. Timezones or job titles with slack. The right people in your team are kept in the loop. And the information they need is always at their fingertips. Learn more at slack dot com. Today's Clark -rageous moment is a special special warning for you about how people may steal from you your money, and you're a density. Clark Regis moment. I can't believe something. I talked about is a good thing has boomeranged and turned out to be a horrendous problem, I told you before about a postal service service. That is one that scans your mail when it comes in and provides he what's known as informed delivery. So you can know what mail is coming to you. So if somebody steals your mail on the way to your house or somehow it gets misdirected miss delivered. You know, the you had that Bill coming from the visa card or you had a check coming from. So and so and you were prepared to cross match to make sure you got all your mail, which was a brilliant idea. But now the US secret service has put out a warning. And by the way, this follows a warning from Krebs on security last year. I think about the potential dangers with informed delivery that the postal service doesn't have enough security in place, criminals are registering as if they. Are the person living at your address? They see what mails coming, and then they intercept from your mailbox things that would allow them to steal your credit card. Number steel checks, steal your identity. Steal money out of your Bank account and on and on and on the only solution right now, unless the postal service shuts down informed delivery is something that I've done for years recommend you do anyway put in a locked mailbox the locking mailboxes. It works. Great. I don't have to worry about somebody pilfering through my mail, which was a problem before I had a locking mailbox and they're easy to install. There's almost nothing to them of then the ability to secure the mail that year receiving great to have you here on the Clark Howard show where it's about your empowerment with knowledge. So you can keep. More of what you make. So went to the eye doctor, and my eyes guide appreciably worse since my last. I exam head to get new frames and lenses. So I get new frames and lenses and my wife says I hate those. Why did you get those and? So she said, why don't you take me with you? When you wanna get glasses because truth be told I have no fashion sense. At all I told this story in our pre show meeting when our whole web teams there are TV and off air, and everybody's gathered together and people were polarized about these classes, although a number of people said, they look nice to me, I guess trying to be nice to me anyway. 'cause I'm sure my wife's right? But imagine this. And I will take her in the future. I just on the very day. This came up a redes- story on market watch that there's a new three D process for making frames that so many frames are made that end up not being used that. It's far more efficient to custom make a frame. That is custom designed for you. Are you custom design at a website and make it exactly as you want. It to be for the shape of your face, the style you like in the rest. And this is something that. Is already happening in other countries. And almost certainly will be here really really soon. There are hundreds of these devices now available that are being used in. Well, actually much of the world except here. So you know, it's coming, and then I'll be able I have unusually narrow face, and usually I would wear kids frames. But now I have to wear something called progressive lenses and the kids frames don't have enough depth to hold the progressive lenses. So I have to get the smallest adult frames I can get we'll just imagine. If I could have a custom frame done, and it was able to exactly suit the style, my wife likes and fits my face. Exactly. So what I worked out with my wife is we're going on the website Zinni optical. And she's going to pick out the frames that she wants to see me wear, and then we'll get a pair of those. So I learned an important lesson. Happy wife happy life. Well, I knew that one. But I I kind of forgot it for a second and should have had her with me again, 'cause I have no fashion sense. And you know that true if you've ever seen me out and about and see how I dress. Obviously, I have no fashion sense at all. Susan's with this Clark Howard show. I susan. Hello clark. How are you? Great. Thank you. Susan. I understand that something I've recommended to you has caused you a problem. Well, not so much a problem as an irritation. I would say let me here. Okay. So I went on to credit karma. I've been credit karma number for many years. And I saw where you had said that they had like pre approved credit card offers and personal loan offers. So I thought well, okay, I would like to consolidate some of my debt to a lower interest rate. So there was a number of personal loan offers underneath of the credit card offers. And so I looked at them. But I never clicked. The back set said take offer all I did was click on where it said learn more, and I really didn't think anything of it until I started getting a bunch of emails from these creditors saying that well, we can't complete your application because you're reports frozen as she told us to do especially since I was a Bickham of identity theft. And I was like, wait a minute. I never applied for anything. So I'm confused as to how that happened. So all right. What I'm guessing? And I'll be a Guinea pig too. I'll I'll go through and all click on you did the debt consolidation thing. Is that they had like a bunch of personal loan offers. Yeah. Like a cheaper interest rate shore, hang on my card. Sure. Okay. So I will be I'll do it too. And see if I then get delusion with offer. So you didn't apply for any of them? You just tell you just what them and then before you knew it you were getting barraged with people who wanted to sell you loan consolidations. That's exactly right. So on the website, the credit the credit karma website where those personal loan offers. Are there's like I don't know eight or ten of them, and they say we can lend you up to x number of dollars and your interest rate could be as low as whatever it was. And then underneath of that there's a place where you can click that says learn more, and then it goes into more detail about, you know, however long you might take it for what their interest rates are and off to the right? There is a box to click that says cake offer, I never clicked that take. Off a buck. All right. So I'm looking right now, I gotta give you bad news before you even get to that step. There's this thing that comes up that says we're on the lookout for better rates will share your profile information with participating partners from time to time to see if you have offers when find offers we think you'd like we'll send you alerts. So they they tell you up front if you go through that shopping exercise, even not even not clicking on any of the actual offers. They've already told you that they're gonna make your information available to people that are paying all. Okay. I see what the deal is. Now. What is it says no sales calls? So did you get all emails or did you get actual phone calls? I got emails. Okay. Like a bunch of. Yeah. So that seems like what's what's going to happen? So what happened to you is looks like what they're intending to happen to you. And so I I think that they go back and rook at it. 'cause you won't go to the step where it's going to generate all that. But you'll see this thing that tells you that they're going to share, you know. Information with participating partners. And that's where you end up with getting the one Email after another after another, and I'm hope those have not been too much of a hassle for you. Albert's with us on the Clark Howard show. Hello, albert. Hey, kirk. How are you? Great. Thank you, Albert. Good. Hey, listen, just wanted to ask I guess your opinion on this couple of years ago. I cut my cable. It did a lot of research. I got a digital type and ten so I got all of my local channels for free and. Notice that the picture was better than you were getting from the pay TV provider before it was a lot better. I mean, it's where I live at is kind of you know, wooded area. So from times when the tree starts swaying. No, you know, little storm eighty you know, you pixelated, but you know, other than that, you know, it's free. So I'm you know, I'm good with that. So and and along with that, I got another internet cable provider, and it works great. So and I've been just checking, you know, off and on just to see what you know is out there that the current one that I have went up in price, and there's other ones that that I can get cheaper. But do not have it. I like that. I came across of I'm not gonna name the company, but this other cable internet cable provider that it just seems too. Good to be true is is like a gazillion channels for twenty dollars a month. And if you wanna go with the premium they gives you two hundred more channels for a total of twenty five dollars a month. Which is wondering if you guys ever heard of that. Yeah, I'm very familiar with this. And so this one gives you like every. Pay-tv channel there is. I mean, pretty much everywhere gives you every sports channel. There is gives you adult content. Everything all thrown in for twenty five dollars a month because they're stealing it. Oh, so they're charging you twenty-five for what they're stealing. Okay. And so the reason that you go look at these channel packages, and they're. Twenty five to sixty dollars a month, depending on which streaming product you do that's pretty much the the scale of the market place. And you know, you might get forty channels from this when fifty from another sixty from another then somebody comes along and says, they're going to give you eight hundred channels for the lowest possible price the only way they're doing it. And there are several of these pirate. They're called pirate services. There are several of them out there, and they steal the content but make their money by charging you the three hundred dollars a year. So once they get found out, they set them down. And then you lose the money, I guess or well the risk is. It's kind of like do you remember back when people would steal music? Yeah. It's the same kind of thing, and I don't know of anybody being prosecuted for stealing video programming, but it is against the law to steal video programming. And hey, I don't know that you wanna help pirates. No, no. I was that was just continue to Cassim infinite sick. And I'm looking at the west I right now. And I mean, it looks so legit absolately. They all do all the pirate services services Wook completely like, hey, this is mainstream. It's just the best deal ever. But right, what a legitimate provider has to pay each month for the channels that they put out there is so much that this is no way. This is a okay Scott's with us on the Clark Howard show. Hi, scott. Hello. How are you? Great. Thank you, Scott. But you got an unpleasant nasty gram in the mail did. And you should did. A sure did we bought this long term care insurance policy from a large company about ten years ago. And you know, I'm during the agree to the payment, we've made the payments all along, but the payment have risen over the period of time from about one hundred and sixty three up to four hundred and forty eight a month. And if getting to the point where we just can't afford it anymore being retired on six income, and that and you've always advocating having long term care insurance for people in my financial bracket if you will and. Not going to happen. Now, just one I've been able to read articles that tell me over the past five years or so that their cost at ridden have written so rapidly that it's broken business business. You're right. It's a completely broken business model and there used to be perhaps more than a thousand insurance companies selling long term care insurance. Now, it's down to maybe ten because everybody lost their shirts because we lived longer than people thought we live, and we live sicker than people thought, we would be and so the cost for the insurers have been just incredibly high and long term care insurance is not sold it guaranteed premium. Right. So the price rises are hideous. And so many. The people end up in a position like you are facing you're like fifty five hundred dollars a year in premiums now. That kind of price. They're like, hey, I'd like to have this stuff. But ain't no way. I can have it. So one suggestion that. I guess my biggest question now is do you recommend another vehicle for you know, to get the end result? What can for well, how old are you seventy three seventy three probably not. So what I would suggest and they may have offered you the option of reducing the amount of coverage the policy gives you so you can get a cheaper premium. Yes, they have they I there three options one I can keep making the payments. The next just like you said they reduced premium. And then the final just canceling it out. And I get a max, I think is close out dollars worth of of the policy. So I would take the middle option. Okay. And so you have some coverage for long term care because the expense can be back breaking. And it's it's just a. Terrible situation that so many people in good faith who bought these policies are now getting punished for having done. So, but if you can afford the option B with the lower premiums, take the reduce benefit, and at least have some amount of long-term care coverage in place. It's time for ass. Clark. That's where you post a question for me at Clark dot com producer Joel acid for you. What you got Joel Clark Roseline a road. He said I received a check where twenty four hundred dollars from a lawyer's office in Wisconsin. It doesn't say what it's four just instruction about how to cash it in a phone number to text only wants to check his cashed. Do you think? It's legit because it certainly looks legit. Wow. I never get till layout. A cow's pile of manure during an ask Clark the unique opportunity that is completely bogus. You're gonna get scammed. The check can look completely legit because today because of the sophistication of printers anybody can print up check stock that looks completely official. So know that there's no virtue in you having any contact with these people money does not follow the sky being told you can only taxed and all that completely nothing but trouble awaiting you do not fall for the fake check scam. You're listening to the Clark Howard show. Thanks for joining us today that Clark Howard show is produced by Kim droves. Joel LARs guard, Debra Reese, and Jim airs and remember twenty four hours a day where there to serve you at Clark dot com and Clark deals dot com.
Media Surprised by Tesla Registrations Despite Shutdown (06.17.20)
"Everybody robbing our here today we were talking about a number of different reports on tests registrations in the united. States in the month of April and May tussle stock, despite some of these reports finished the day up one percent to nine hundred ninety one dollars, seventy nine cents that compared to the Nasdaq up zero point two percent all right so as much as I would love to skip this topic because I think a lot of us know where this is. Is Heading. Most of the Tesla headlines today are related to a Wall Street Journal article published this morning titled Quote Tessa Registrations Plunge in California data tracker, says and quote, then leading off the article with quote, registrations of newly purchased Tesla vehicles plunged critical California market over the past two months according to new data underlining the challenge chief executive Elon, Musk faces to keep investor enthusiasm that has helped propel the company's share price and quote the Wall Street Journal Journal cites data from Dominion Enterprises which apparently tracks registrations in twenty four states that make up about sixty five percents of the US market, and in those twenty four states they say that Tesla registrations declined thirty three percent to fourteen, thousand, one, hundred and fifty one vehicles during the first two months off cue to the media, then seemed to go full, shocked Pika Chew Mon and read a whole bunch of articles about this highlighting Tesla's quote, unquote plunging registrations so. So I thought had a little bit of fun with that with the today. Apologies for that, but the point here is that this should not be surprising at all. People seem to have forgotten that Tesla. Had Their factory shut down for seven weeks from late March to early May as we know. Tesla is somewhat unique in that their registration or sales, information correlates strongly to their production rather than simply being an indication of demand like we might see from. Cars we can easily see this in the inventory numbers. If we look at Tesla, they had twenty days of inventory at the end of Q. on of March that comes right from their shareholder letter, and if we look at a company like Ford, for example, they said that at the march they had one hundred days of inventory so twenty days of inventory doesn't get. Get you too far when you're factories, shut down for fifty days compared to if you had one hundred days of inventory in stock like four does according to Cox Automotive, many brands actually had more than one hundred days of inventory at the end of March including Honda, jeep, Cadillac, an Acura and many others, and then even on the low end. They have KIA as. As the lowest brand at forty three days, so Tesla's inventory is about twenty to twenty five percent of the average and half of that of the lowest other brand in the US. The other important consideration here when we look at April and May specifically for the United States is that because Tesla restarted production in early, may that only gave them a couple or A. A few weeks to be able to produce vehicles ship them over to Europe and have them delivered within Q. Two, so with that being the case, obviously a very small amount of vehicles produced in May are going to actually be allocated for the North American market, so yeah plenty of reasons for us to expect registrations to have been down year over year in April. April and May in the US definitely not shocked Pichu type of situation, even with all that being the case in the same article, The Wall Street Journal says that Dominion Research says that the industry fell forty three percent in April and may remember. They have tussled down thirty three percent, so even without much inventory, Tesla is still outperforming the broader industry. You actually interpret. Interpret this as relatively bullish report. The other thing that I want to talk about briefly is the actual number here. So they said that registrations were fourteen thousand, or so in the first two months of the quarter and remember that's four states that make up about sixty five percents of the total US auto market. Tesla probably penetrates a little bit higher in those markets. Markets, because it does include California, so if we assume that that's about seventy five percent, then that can point to a number of about eighteen thousand five hundred vehicles registered in the United States in April, and met now I'm not putting much weight into these numbers, but that number does seem extremely reasonable. We know that Tesla began the quarter with about thirty thousand vehicles. Vehicles in inventory, so if we assume about half of that inventory, or about fifteen thousand vehicles were in the United States at the end of March then for us to have eighteen thousand vehicles registered in the US in April, and may sounds like a pretty reasonable number, if tussle were to sell off some of that inventory mentor, and then we add in deliveries from. That are probably not entirely allocated for Europe as well as Mata. Why if anything I see this report? As a low weight indicator that things are roughly on track. One less thing. I wanted to point out on this. The street did run article separate from my page on this topic and I didn't really love the headline. They reach out me, gave me the opportunity to add some context, and then actually included all of my comments in the article on this topic, so I think this was just a good example of why I did this is because I want to get that context out to more people. That gives me an opportunity to do that the article. Article appeared on the Apple Dell newsfeed for example, so I thought it was just a good highlight. An hopefully a lot more of things like that to come in the future. The link to that article will be in the show notes. If you want to check it out and thank you by the way to those of you that have already popped over to the street dot com slash Tesla where my pages housed to start commenting and liking things over there. I really appreciate that last thing today is news from ridesharing service lift today. They announced that they are committing to reach one hundred percent electric vehicles on the lift platform by twenty thirty. We always have. Have to be a bit careful with releases like this to make sure they mean all electric vehicles and not electrified vehicles lift does specify saying that trick or other zero emission technologies, lifts Co, founder and President John Zimmer said quote now more than ever. We need to work together to create cleaner, healthier and more equitable communities, success, breeds, success, and if we do this right, it creates a path for others, if other rideshare delivery companies, automakers and rental car companies make this shift, it can be the catalyst for transforming transportation as a whole and quote, while this is a great goal and a good press release remains a little bit unclear exactly how this will be. Be, implemented Pearson chorus a journalist. Four tech crunch tweeted today after reporting on this topic, saying quote, this is another story that requires some unpacking lift tells me that doesn't plan to ban. Drivers who have gas powered vehicles says it doesn't think it will need to, because it will meet its goal without taking that measure mark counters for one decade from now and quote so aspirations in the right place, but in terms of the eventual actuality, maybe not such a hard line drawn here by lift anyway that rapid up for today as always. Thank you for listening. Don't forget to subscribe and sign up for notifications. Make sure you're following me on twitter at Tessa podcast. Tomorrow for the Thursday June eighteenth episode of tests available thank you.
Startup Talk Podcast The Fiix Mechanics Story with Zain Manji
"Direct from the six world renowned Canada's largest city with Canada's biggest thinkers visionaries and hustlers. I this is startup. Talk featuring the founders funders innovators and community leaders who've led Canada's startup ecosystems. Right here in Toronto. You'll hear the challenges. The failures the successes Toronto Startup. Podcast gives you the full story direct from the entrepreneurs and influencers who've made a difference now the host of startup talk the founder of Toronto starts this startup coach. Welcome back to startup talk. I'm your host Craig. Major and founder of trauma starts and with me. Today is Zane Manji of laser technologies. Welcome saying hey thanks for having me great to have you we. I've been trying to get you back for a little while now on since we met back in two thousand fifteen year life has significantly changed Let's talk a little bit about that journey when we met you or with Fix Mechanics and you had one our pitch competition in back in two thousand fifteen. Do you remember how many employees you were back. Then I think in two thousand fifteen and my co founders. Colin and I think one other person named James I think so just the four of us at the time and You WanNa Pitch. Competition was great your video. I use Even though it's a little rainy through compression I still use as an example of a type of stuff. You need in a one minute. Pitch and It's fun and it's you're communicating a lot of information but you Lot's happened since then. And tell us a little bit about Your journey what's happened. Yeah for sure I think after our I after we did the pitch competition with you We basically did a few more pitch competitions within the Toronto and Waterloo area One of them being the lost image competition where we won. Twenty five thousand. I believe I'm to continue growing the business Shortly after we won the Blasi Pitch Competition we got accepted to the Y. Combinator Fellowship Program And then we got accepted through an unconventional way which was through snapchat which is pretty cool and then shortly after the Y combinator Fellowship Program. We got into the actual light comedy core. Which is the main program that you see All of the Y combinator companies going throughout the moments and throughout that program and throughout the whole year in that case we were growing roughly around nine ten percents weekly for all those weeks. In terms of top line Jim Vian revenue and we were able to raise a round of about two point three million Canadian coming out of the White Comedy Corp to continue growing the business in Toronto. As what year was that when you came out of it so we were part of the why Americor program in the winter of two thousand seventeen batch? So we've finished our seed round. Probably around may twenty seventeen and I use you as an example for a lot of things. Idea validation hitching and whatnot. Because you know we met a long time ago. We've talked to several times and sent you mentioned you got in a unique way snapchat now. You told me the story ages ago but can you tell me a little bit about this. 'cause this story. I share by different types of traction. So tell us how you got in each with snapchat is actually a pretty funny story Songkhla time it was summer of twenty sixteen or just the beginning of the summer of two thousand sixteen in Were all working out of Art House and at the time it was when we just started fix and we were still doing tire. Changes only what we were doing was we. Were just like kind of putting flyers around the city putting lawn signs around the city hosting free ads on Kaji to try to get more customers and more and more business and then basically used to follow one of the Partners Allied Commander. His name is Justin conn started twitch alongside the CEO White Comair Michael Szabo and follow him on snapchat because Justin Conn was pretty active on snapchat. Post along with a lot of stories of starve advice and things going on in Silicon Valley and is really cool ranch in mansion in California and it was pretty entertaining content and then one day justin randomly did a did a little story on snapchat basically saying that the conventional way that Y combinator accepted applications was Kinda like doll and he wanted to Is things up a little bit so he thought it would be a cool idea to allow companies to basically apply to do like a short story pitch on snapchat channel and at the time. Just in con- has like about his ike hundreds of thousands of Oliver's on snapchat so his distribution is pretty large and he thought to be a cool idea and content for his followers to actually show a different applications to Y C on his snapchat channel so close basically saw this in one of his stories and he came up to us and was like. Hey this is. This is such a cool idea. We should do this. Animatedly like me and our were just like sounds kind of silly like we. Should you know? Keep putting flyers and just try to find different ways to keep growing business But close super passionate about this really ought to be a fun idea so like go for and so what happened. Was Club lied and then just communist team basically chose Fixed to do a short story pitch on his object channels so basically takeover Justin Channel for an hour and do a pitch and basically what happened was we got. We got a logging INFO and we logged into a snapchat counted. The pitch and close phone was overheating because he was getting so many messages from his accounts and we did a quick pitch in the short amount of time that we could and basically at the end of the whole data scenario. Justin Khan really really liked our our story in our pitch and invite us to come onto the white combinator fellowship. Program sounds great And it's always using new technologies in different ways you know. Snap testing on that now but it was back then and to get attention. is amazing. It's always great to tell people so now you are finished in two thousand seventeen And you've raised two points to three million. Yes and what happens we raised two point three We kind of Comeback Toronto. Because at that moment we really wanted to make sure that we had a really strong playbook within Toronto Before we actually spanned across the country or expanding across into different cities in the US and we thought there was still a lot of room to grow in Toronto and in terms of revenue market size. And all that stuff so he basically moved back to Toronto. We hire few key members of the team to help scale our efforts in Toronto and we continue to grow our beauty line and we we still grow round forty percent month over over the year and then we decided to kind of expand into the B. to be saddled with more just because we thought that the BBC side to incrementally get that extra customer would cost a lot of money in terms of acquisition costs so we thought in order to improve the economics of the business. We have to kind of expand into the B. Two B. Landscape to help blend our CAQ and grew retention and all about stuff and so. How did your marketing switch when you went from B. to c? To be to be quite different so I I think I to define what B. Two B. in our scenario was BSE is essentially going to people's homes. You know households have cars of beat. Abi Is corporations that have a fleet of vehicles. So think about think about like the discount car truck and rentals or U-haul the have a fleet of trucks that people rent out and also think about cargo has their own fleet of Mercedes Benz vehicles and smarter cars across the city That's what we defined as so corporate fleets and the marketing acquisition strategy of like across beauty is quite different than so with you to see. It tends to be more Digital Marketing Advertising Bul Edwards facebook ads Different like referral programs. Like invite a friend off your next. You know your next repair But BB is quite different. Because there's primarily like one decision maker within the organization that you have to get a hold of and you have to kind of make that person your champion so that they can convince other key members within the organization that we were the best option to manage and repair it. Keep track of their vehicles so longer sales cycles more touch points in terms of like sales meetings But in the end it turns out to be better retention higher. You know higher revenue per customer on all that stuff. Yeah when you onboard your on boarding hundreds of vehicles at a time rather than one. Yeah exactly like the main difference here was with beat AC- when you spend on Google advert campaign of campaign and you get that one conversion that one conversion has be one or two cars Max and in our in our case the customer acquisition costs around eighty dollars to acquire that one customer so we had to make sure that our economics per customer was was good enough such that an eighty dollars customer was costs could make our contribution margin positive all of that stuff while with BBC is you can spend a little bit more because if you were to acquire a fleet of vehicles you're not getting one vehicle you be. You could be getting fifty one hundred or a thousand whatever may be and those early locked in for at least a six months to a year at least so and you can anticipate demand quite quite quite quite easily compared to a normal beat. Ac- customer so you switched to be and how long the take for the B. Two B. Customers to start coming in so the reason why we switched to be to be at the first places because one customer organically like reached out to us and it was a car sharing company. And so we we. I explore that idea and so we finished our efforts with one customer and then learned from that customer and grew it but every single other customer after that it took around six to eight months to kind of look at it which is quite long in quite different than a Harvey Jiji and it takes a long because companies have to go through budgeting budgeting cycles Get approvals time of year tends to impact how they can make decisions all that stuff and if they go through a lot of legal processes and meetings with executives and in all of. That's kind of stop to make sure that thinking there are wire to get those operational efficiencies by using US debate The business model change a from a Per visit per repair per tire change to a a per month subscription style model. It's It's interesting so we tried to test the subscription it worked with some some types of customers and at work and it didn't work with some others a thing that we found with like the beat obese faces that even though that even though the at a high level they kind of looked like all the same types of customers such that like company that has a bunch of vehicles that they manage. Each company manages and operates their fleet of vehicles much different way so for example if we take a cargo for example. Derek Carr show coming the has hundreds and hundreds of mercedes-benz across Toronto but with them their cars are stationed at random spots within the city. There's no like central owner of that car. Basically whenever someone wants to use that car they long to the APP. Get a CODE TO UNLOCK THAT CAR. Drive the car. Etcetera and cargo has like special exact detect whether a check engine light is on whether there's a flat tire they have employees that go in assess the conditions of vehicles so that kind of client tended to be more of a ad hoc basis where we get notified that there's an issue with his cards at this location. We would go services so a subscription model didn't necessarily work out there but there was a large amount of volume every single week intense repairs versus like another type of customer which was more like a copy that had a fleet of vehicles that operated basically between eight am to five pm and we could slap on a subscription package to that vehicle based on that vehicles maintenance schedule Because that company really cared about making sure that their vehicles were always top of the line. that there is never any issues with it at no check. Engine lights diagnostic issues. Came up in the car while customer was in it So their needs were quite different than likes the cargo so there were some where we could do. A subscription models summary view ad hoc basis And somewhere they would pay a certain amount for a specific set of services and then draw down from that amounts as they utilized civic services. Well it's interesting that they're so much difference in each of the fleet having not really thought about it before fit and figuring fleet management fleet management but those are some great examples of you know completely different and you being flexible enough to say while we can try slightly different business model with each of these just because it makes more sense for the customer when I started with the BB space. You don't know what the formula for success is like a lot of experimentation still. It's kind of its own news startup. Because you're targeting A total new demographic. So you don't really know what the needs of those customers are what resonates with them. The best what solve their problems. What problems are even having all of that stuff? So it's still a very large iteration psycho I think. Because we're we're still like we still have the flexibility of scrappy startup. We're able to like create different models that adapt best to our clients. Needs while if you're like a more mature shop or anything that you have one set formula that you abide by To the end of you and if it doesn't fit that formula that you don't take on that clients and if it doesn't you do take on that clients I think in order to figure that formula we had two experiments ends See what models work basketball. Don't don't work best for us and for them in and figure out who the best customers for us. We're so after you had your first customer and you worked a long time figuring out with them. How quickly was it for you to grow into Morbidity customers? I think it's a so it took US quite. It took US quite a bit of time to figure out who our target customer was Like we kind of saw it as there's three types of yeah. There's three to four types of customers within the B. Two B. space there's like those small fleets which are more like one to ten types of amount of vehicles and those are owned by like small companies that do like maybe slum some small deliveries or logistics or whatever it is then there's like a medium size fleet which is like within the fifty to one hundred vehicle range and then there's a large size fleets which are like one hundred and fifty plus an the fourth one is more like the car shack model and so what we found was the car sharing model and the medium size fleets really fit us. Best Small Fleets SMALL-SIZE FLEAS BENEFIT AS S. Because those owners were more price conscious so they were always trying to find the cheapest cheapest service like those twenty dollar oil changes because their cash flow was super important to them and they didn't have enough funds to really justify You know having someone come to them and that the large size fleets which are like hundred fifty plus those kind of companies. What they would extra do is they actually have their own. Garages Onsite. Because they have so many vehicles that can actually justify the cost of having their home repair people in shop too because those cars are always in service and they need those quail changes for as cheap as was well from like a optimization standpoint. Those medium-size Fleas fifty to one hundred and fifty is vehicles. Those are sweet spot because they weren't too big enough to have their own shop. They weren't small enough. That money was a huge issue them so that they can they really valued this time savings and efficiency trauma service like ours. So that's that's what we've been best in the same thing with the car sharing model but like to figure all that out took like about a year year and a half right and these sales cycles are quite long so once we figure that on we noted down amounts face wants to be like identify all the Customers that we want to tackle. It's not as quick as like flicking a switch and be like okay. Let me have meetings the holidays guys. It's it's still takes six to eight months to have those meetings to Have them communicate with their team? To present them pitches and show them the experience of all that stuff so so it sounds like It took a long time to get all that going. Which is normal when you're switching like this and people don't understand people A LOT OF EARLY STAGE STARTUPS. Don't understand The length of a sale cycle can mean the difference between living and dying as At entrepreneur did you go into it knowing along. That cycle would be No I mean like everyone says that you know it'd be sales is a long sales cycle I don't think it's hard to imagine until you actually go through it like because you sent an email and waiting for response and even though you're ready to move fast the other party might not be ready to pass so yes. It's important to make sure that you have enough runway enough cash flow coming in to make sure that you can endure those long sales cycles Because if you have even like less than a year runway and you and you sales cycles take six eight months long and not every sale that you pursue comes through right so You have to make sure that you can like whether that storm Have enough freedom to experiment and learn and adapt and an enough runway to not have to be so much a pressure box and so. When did you feel that pressure was lifted off you? You're starting to get some beat clients that you know your runway was starting to lengthen again. Yeah I think like we were lucky that we started with a beautifully client that's Kind of came to us really wanted our service and they tended to be a larger client so we had enough cash flow coming in from that to be able to experimental bit better in actually pursue this route. More deeply So we were never like really an oppressor box per se. There were times where we were in limbo because like limbo on this side because People we waiting for decisions or whatever but there was never really A total amount of pressure that Omega Brennan Tied Tomorrow. If we don't close tomorrow or today but yeah. There's there's always pressure because you feel like you're wasting time. If if you're not getting responses or not being practiced with your time in seeing results I think like switching from A. B. Deceit. Ob Dubuque perspective is so different because with a beat AC- motto. You tend to see results like right away like if you were to put out an ad you can get calls immediately right if a B. Two B. It's like if you've said on you don't get an email back right away. You have to wait a week a month. Whatever it might be so. It's more of a patient's game that you have to play in the space to do you have any B. Two B. Tricks that got year your foot in the door that you could share I think this is not a trick but kind of like warm intros are opposite the best way to get any B. Two B. Sale And that's the best way that we found to make relationship within someone within organization was just trying to provide them value So for example like if there was a customer of ours that Used our service and actually worked specific company. Now it'd be very good entry point for us to kind of get roots into that company so we tried to leverage our bureaucracy kind of contacts in our our customers and our value to our B. Two B. side as well Another thing that we that we saw was cool was like with a business like ours a lot of times. You can explain to someone. But they don't really understand the magic until they actually have to go through a themselves so we would knowing that we would try to find a way to give the decision maker or the key members within that organization that feeling that they would experience if they were to use a service like ours versus the alternative shop and the way we would do that would be either through like real life video experiences or kind of like enticing them to use our service in their own personal time of need a giving them like a free oil change or even like showing up to the places and performing oil change on the premises or nearby so that they can see and make them like kind of question. What's going on Those tentative kind of sparked cool conversations and lead to like pretty. Good results fabulous. And I guess it's not a trick as I said it's definitely a tip. Warming chosen definitely getting people to try your kool-aid whatever your kool-aid is for themselves. Because otherwise they just have a impression of it getting the detriot gets them The actually involved in get some Committed to something. Yeah because you want them to be a champion at the end of the day you don't you just don't want someone to just be like. Hey check out this service pretty cool I recommend it you want them to really push or you internally and I think with our service if you really had the pain points a driving to a repair shop know wasting half your day and all the stuff and then you found a service like actually use. You would understand that a man after using US like. There's no way you can go back to repair shop and I felt like I one of the things that a lot of these businesses face was if you were to tell them like yeah we come to you and you know repair cars. They don't really understand the whole journey. Allowed right like if you think about a business perspective if one of the fleets the vehicles were flat tire or a dead battery or needed their breaks repaired. If you were to think about the journey that they would face in order to get that car repair what they do is they would have one of their employees. Go TO THE VIDEO. Take that vehicle to a shop. Wait at the shop to get a repair. Drive that vehicle back. If vehicle had to stay overnight at the shop they would have to. You Know Uber back home or whatever might be and so what we found. Is that the costs associated with company. Actually repair cars actually two to three times higher than a normal consumer because the company has to pay for the cost of the employees time any delivery cost the cost of the service in the last thing that they often overlook. The opportunity costs so for example. If you think about a car sharing company that has vehicle out a service. It's not like you're not just facing the cost of the repair on the cost of the employees time to drive that car to repair shop. You're actually losing out on revenues. Because no one can book that car for service to us. So you're facing like these three costs. People don't realize that until they actually go through experiences services for themselves it's interesting and I was always amazed at the the the foresight of the service and and how smooth seemed to go and getting someone to Experienced that is eye opening so I'm not seem to work out really well for him. I'm happy Roy though so because we're here in Toronto I gotTa ask you about dragging stand. How'd you get on IT What happened how was that whole experience. Yeah honestly that was a really cool experience the way we got on it was we applied to audition for the show so basically. I think every time they season the cast of Dragons Zenon. Cbc The cold auditions at the CBC building or any type of company to come in and do go to three minute pitch and so we basically applied they relate. Yeah come in for a two three minute pitch and we went in and this is C. What after like Wycombe meter sub? So we're pretty familiar with pitches and kind of like we know. Our number is our product all of that stuff so the pitch went very smoothly. I think because we have nailed that pitch And because it was A business a service where you know normal household consumers can actually resonate within actually feel the pain in actually use US loose in their everyday lives. They decided to pick us to come into airing the episode and so how it works as like. They don't pick every company that does that to Mitt to two to three minute pitch to come on the show. They pick like a select few and of that select few they kind of bring them back to back. You know backed back recordings of episodes so the dragons are like on a random Tuesday starting from seven. Am to five PM. They have like you know. Twenty to thirty companies kind of come and do back to back recordings and the dragons are just in one studio listening pitches over and over again and so we show up on that day to to film the episode end at this time it was myself. I other CO founder are Clo- was in coober. Because he was sick at times it can really travel so we were at the CBC building and You know like other companies going for recording beforehand in our term came up and I was surprised because like beforehand you. You don't know exactly how everything's GonNa go down. You don't know if they're like scripted. Or if it's off the dome or anything like that so when we walked in but they look like everything is unscripted were just. GonNa Straight Recording. So yeah just be prepared. Essentially so we go in we do our pitch. We obviously practice beforehand. But we did our pitch ends the questions and the from the Dragon's despite the conversation pretty natural and we were pretty like focused and enthralled in the conversation that you kind of lose sight of like that there's cameras around or that you're actually in the show because you're trying to answer all these questions and you know at the end of day come up with a deal But it was a really really cool experience because not only did we get a deal after the show the the publicity and marketing that comes along with a good episode being on the show is is pretty pretty cool we saw Hughes again the number of people coming to our website number of services that we were performing so it's a very cool experience. Yeah I really like the episode specifically around you guys coming out doing your thing. You've already raised some money and You had your terms and they're all like No thanks and then they talk a bunch more than they come back and then they're they're negotiating with you. How do we get it? It's an interesting turn around and we we've had several startups in our community. Go through dragons then some make it on the show like going through addition processes just an experienced in the south and then some get make it to the recording. But don't actually make it on the show or they make it is to side-hustle edition or whatever else but There's been a number of us that have been successfully gone through a lot of the deals from the show. Don't eventually make it through. 'cause you gotta go through due diligence and all this other stuff. I'm glad to hear that yours actually went through are actually didn't go through. Oh yes it came down to the due-diligence thing I think like at the end of the day the diligence process actually took too long Like it would have taken a year or so to actually go through Which would act which was just not in our best interest for the company because by the time we would have received funds and stuff like that we would be probably at a different stage of the life cycle of the business Because we were moving quite quickly. Company can afford due diligence of a year. Yeah I mean it's it's it's been a long time you know and But we kept good relationships with With everyone that was involved and Like everyone was pretty interested in kind of keeping in touch for the series if it were to come and so it wasn't a bad thing or it wasn't a bad thing at all it. Just the timeline and the timeline in the process just didn't work out in in both of our favors. So that's how it goes. Yeah that's what I say a lot of these things don't survive to diligence dragonstar thing that's just any BC. Yeah we got a handshake deal but now we gotta go through the motions. Go through all this and you find out why you don't like working with each other to their no not everything is revealed. When you're in a pitch you've got to kind of go under the covers. A little bit A lot of things have changed. Now we got Companies like clear bank and whatnot. Who are are doing stuff based on your sales and revenue That would provide a funding. I know One of our startups hedgehog umbrella. They Went on Dragon Stan. I think they didn't get funded on there but they're now being funded by clear bank. Yeah you know again. They're not typical but they've got a Revenue ECOMMERCE on selling and it's a clear a numbers game there. Yeah I mean like clear. Bank is interesting because And even kind of how. Michelle did her assessment on. The show is very similar to how clear bank operates like Michelle's vary Driven her assessments. At which is exactly what clear. Bankas right if your numbers workout. The product is a product makes sense. are good and it's a scalable. It's a scalable company such that if you were to just you know for more fuel on the fire it would grow with a high probability of getting your money back then. It's a no brainer funding. So there's lots of lots of companies like that and I think it's working out well for them. It seems to be. I mean we'll we'll time will tell with a lot of early stage startups that five ten years down the road turn to do well but I think they're doing well so You've got you went through an exit. Tell me how that happened at someone approach. You did you someone else. What was that process? Yeah basically what happened was we. Were speaking to another company for to a partnership between fix them for a tire. Change season and they actually facilitated call with one of our other competitors in the states who has actually interested in you know coming into Canada in growing expanding and potentially acquiring us so That's kind of how it initiated and then we kind of took it under consideration and We saw that. It was actually as something to be serious about and Ensue and we kind of went through that whole due diligence process where we had the share like our financials our roadmap or growth or stats all about stuff. And then yeah. We eventually ended up selling to one of our largest veterans in the states. Called wrench. Who IS BASED OUT OF SEATTLE? How long ago was that? We we finalize the deal this past summer so like early this summer. We finalize that deal and We decided not to kind of join. I company because they're based out of Seattle. We wanted to stay in Toronto and they actually still operate in the states primarily they with like plans in the future to expand to Canada. So they're not in candidates as yet but they're still trying to exhaust and Tadic over the whole. Us market But it's very interesting because one of the things that they really valued was The technology that we built within the company's separately around the SEO when the the seamless process to customers in and kind of provide that experience to them because seo is kind of cool like for our website we were getting around one hundred thousand hits per month from high intense customers for repairs for their vehicles and that is quite a lot. Like if you're at attached like eighty dollar you know associated per customer. That's that's like what like eight million dollars right there? In TERMS OF CAC four hundred thousand hits per month but the thing with SEO is not SEO is not centralized to a specific location right like since we're only in Toronto we can only address a specific percentage of that Seo because the SEO is all across North America in our case but if you are a company that's with like covering all across the US you can leverage at us. Yo in a much better way so since they're all across the US they can actually utilize Seo Joe to get customers in whatever market therein and I'll blow are the cock and improve the service absolutely so how long you started something else since you left. wrench yes so we actually started a new company. Called Laser Technologies and essentially what laser technologies is a digital product studio that helps enterprises build products aster with higher quality? Lab started experiencing our kind of expertise around different products to really help them build products that they have trouble building rally. Some of our clients are the weather network. Rb See and Cox Automotive and alongside that we also do build our own saas products internally from difference gaps in the market that we see from all these that we do projects in. And how? How was this going like how? When did you start at? How did you come across this idea yet? It started like shortly after. Basically what happened was when we stole fix We didn't have a new idea right off the bat that we wanted to pursue and I think what we thought was can we can look into our daily lives to see what problems we have. But we want to kind of dive deeper into industries to really figure out whatever the leaper issues within those industries. What prompted the experiencing and what solutions aid and at the same time. What happened was a lot of her friends. Within Toronto Community who run these companies actually just reached out to us and saw that we were done with fix? And they're like hey like we have these problems internally with this project and we're having trouble executing on due to like you we don't have enough capacity or we don't have enough talents or really need this quickly and we just is not on our roadmap and we need like a Ninja squad to come in and they said could you help us and since we were in the mindset of we want to dive into industries deeper really understand them we were gaffer disagreed opportunity for us to learn and also help you guys out and And see what other gaps there are so we started taking on these projects organically and then. We saw that like a lot of these companies. Actually face these problems where They don't have enough resources internally to execute on these projects quickly they don't have like the industry experience to really take ideas from like to take an idea from scratch and really build it into an MVP to a fully-fledged scaled product. And they don't have like the whole star expertise internally to really grow these products in iterating on them successfully so we found a lot of success helping these companies do that with the weather network obviously ventures and Cox Automotive and I think like within the past two months we've started building our own SAS products from different opportunities that we saw within those industries which is going quite well at the moment. And so are you looking for new clients people? Just call you up. Who is your ideal client. How does that? How does that work? Yes I mean like our client tends to be larger enterprises particular because of like a budgeting aspect and we actually don't really help out starved as much as because of like the fee that we charge. I think with start ups. You know your runway is like year your oxygen rights. So you really want to use your runway in your cash. Iterating experiments ends on your product as much as possible with your own technical team and so for like a startup to really outsource all that work to someone. Like us doesn't really make sense. Because what happens is you're you might launch a product and then talk to your customers and then figure out that your products like a complete one eighty right so if you do that. It's really important for you as started to have that technical expertise in house such that you can move quicker and that's part of your life blood as a startup renting exactly yes but these larger enterprises. They're they're more of like a structured process right and a lot of these enterprises sometimes have trouble hiring Top talent internally they might have top talent internally but not enough in terms of quantity of talent to execute on everything on the road map in sometimes. There are different opportunities and products that. They need to build to capitalize on the market quickly. That if they were to use their own capacity internally they wouldn't be able to do so fast enough so is he like fortune. Five hundred companies of large private sector companies tend to use US and benefit the most from us. Let's fantastic and what's next for you and laser technologies. I think right now is We actually have a lot of so. We have a lot of clients coming in You know requesting different projects so what we're trying to do as making sure that we hire the best talent internally so that we can continue our quality high and continue to work on really exciting interesting projects so hiring is our number one thing at the moment number two is always like Looking were always looking and listening to different clients that new problems so We're never like saying whenever like not taking any called learning meeting so more clans are always welcome to reach out and and You know learn more about us and have US learn above about them and the third thing is we are continually building different products internally from opportunities that received so we are still in the experimental phase. it's turning out really cool and this quarter should be pretty interesting and that's well on has been great talking to you. It sounds like a laser. Technologies is doing really well and You know won't have any of my startups reaching out to you for help in the near future but I I I wish you all the best any parting words for audience so with startups. You can still reach out to me personally. I'll be happy to help you out but We we. I won't like we won't help you with a full fledged elementary or anything. I will definitely help you with any questions or whatever anything that you guys need so feel free to reach out. No matter yeah. I'm GONNA connect you with somebody who's moving from the BBC to be to be market in fleet vehicles just for you guys to chat about the experience for sure that'd be cool so thank you for being on startup talking. Yeah thanks for having this has been startup talk Toronto Startup podcast for more exclusive content the episode vault and to be part of TORONTO'S STARTS COMMUNITY VISIT TORONTO STARTS DOT COM. Get Your name on the newsletter mailing list and check out our upcoming events. Four more episodes subscribe now employees. Recognize the time and work behind the scenes. Put into connecting you with the biggest visionaries entrepreneurs and innovators in Toronto by leaving for five Star Review. Join US for more next episode from Toronto's most active entrepreneur and start up community on startup.
Not enough cooks in the kitchen
"In the US economy slowing its role in New York. I'm Sabrina Short. In for David. Brancaccio you economic growth was slowing down well. Before Corona the virus started disrupting international supply chain. So let's just take a look at what that slower growth looks like David. Kelly is chief global strategist with J. P. Morgan Funds. Good Morning David. You've got to be here. We had a great jobs. Report Friday But economic growth is still expected to be slowing. What is your forecast? Yea Yeah I it is I think the the jobs report on Friday was a little bit. Mis- misleading well. We know is the consumer spending is slowing down We also know that we got some pretty good trade numbers for various technical reasons in the fourth quarter. That's probably going to reverse in the first quarter so we think that economic growth in the first quarter only be about one percent and I think it's going to be hurt by the krona virus and by the bullying shutdown. So maybe only about one percent growth is an annual raise and slipping below two percent on a year over year your basis for the first time since two thousand sixteen one thing that a Federal Reserve Chair Jay Powell is going to bring up. Today is his concern over. Risky Corporate debt. They're worried that too. Many companies half of investment grade debt is rated just above junk bond levels. Do show that concern well. I do share that concerned but I I think he also affect upon. You know how the Fed is actually enabling. This year's of over easy. Monetary policy has now re-stimulate as much stronger economic growth both but it has to some extent generation asset bubbles and one of these bubbles is companies who just take advantage of these low rates to build up too much and so I think that's why you're getting more low rated deaths. I don't think it's going to cause a crisis in the showroom but even when we have a recession a lot of companies gonNA have trouble paying this debt and that probably means more layoffs more cost cutting maybe hard to escape the next recession because of this debt David Kelly chief global strategist with J. P. Morgan Funds. Thanks so much for speaking with US anytime. US consumers ooh a total of nearly fourteen trillion dollars in the third quarter of two thousand nineteen. The New York Fed is set to update those numbers this morning and give us a sense of how everyone is managing aging mortgages and student at in credit cards and auto loans. People are taking out auto loans at near record levels and lately people have been having a harder time paying saying those auto loans back auto loan delinquencies have been rising marketplace's Justin. How has more delinquencies are rising fastest and subprime auto lending risky loans made to borrowers with lower credit scores? Jonathan smoke is chief. Economist at Cox Automotive subprime loans make up twenty percent of auto loans. But they make up sixty seven seven percent of defaults. The rising delinquencies is a sign that the economy has grown in recent years. Lenders have gotten a little. Too excited. Says Economists Sarah House at Wellsfargo Fargo. You have seen credit open. Backup to subprime borrowers who are going to have higher default rates. How says new and used cars have gotten more expensive so borrowers have been taking on longer term outta loans to keep their monthly payments down but Jonathan smoke says for those loans lenders are getting a a little more selective loans have a higher probability of default? The longer the terms get smoke says lenders are also raising rates on subprime auto loans to compensate for all the risk. I'm Justin how for marketplace EH nerve. The National Restaurant Association says the Restaurant Business will be employing one point. Six million more people by twenty thirty. A lot of restaurant workers these days around forty percent of them are young under twenty five years old which means as the US workforce ages. The restaurant industry expects to lose a significant source of labor. That is why restaurateurs are looking to immigrants to fill that growing labor gap Houston public. Media's Elizabeth travel has more on how that's that's playing out in Houston. This is those through the kitchen. Houston Shack Hugo Ortega points out the different workstations at his restaurant. Hugo's which serves Mexican cuisine on this side here. We had this station that we will decrease this Ortega followed a call yet they across the border in the nineteen eighties. These he says is American. Dream began with him. Earning three seventy five an hour as a restaurant janitor now or ticket is James Beard Award winner and one of Houston's most celebrated chefs his path to citizenship. Came via president. Ronald Reagan's amnesty program. We have fantastic west African restaurants Filipino restaurants. Indian Pakistani Cassani Vietnamese Korean Melissa Stewart runs the Greater Houston Restaurant Association. She says show Forte. Is One of many local chefs who bring flavors from their home home-country to Houston within a one mile radius. I can explore the world and restaurant. Workers come from around the world to the local think tank Center for Houston's future found that a third of Houston's food and entertainment workers are immigrants and says half of those workers are undocumented but even with immigrant labor restaurants still face hiring hiring challenges Houston restaurant tour. Jonathan Horowitz that's mostly due to the amount of competition and the volume of restaurants that have opened in uh stuck in in two thousand eighteen. The state says the industry generated more than eighteen billion dollars in sales but Stuart says to keep those revenues coming in and restaurant staffed. Immigration reform is critical. Frankly the goal is that we'd like to see moving towards getting a solution for the workforce that quite frankly we need but with with no comprehensive immigration changes in sight. Stuart says the industry is looking to attract workers other ways like offering more hours and better wages in the Houston Canaria Food Service Workers Take Home on average about four hundred twenty three dollars a week. Thirty percent more than a decade ago in Houston I'm Elizabeth Trophy for marketplace in New York. I'm sure with the marketplace morning report from A._P._M.. American public media.
COVID-19 drives unemployment claims up
"Confirmed covert nineteen concerns driving a lot of people to sign up for unemployment benefits. I'm David Brancaccio. In New York. In an early statistical snapshot on the Corona Virus Effect on layoffs in America many more people than expected signed up for unemployment benefits last week. They were two hundred eighty one thousand more people rise of thirty three percent in a week. Diane swonk is the chief economist at the tax advisory Firm Grant Thornton in Chicago. Hey Diane Money stewing the math. It looks like a thirty three percent spike in initial claims for unemployment Benefits Week. March eighth to fourteenth. I don't know if I've ever seen any spike like that before. Only during a natural disaster like Hurricane Harvey were you see one week spike over people are displaced out of work and then return the next week. This is something very different. We've never seen a spike like this due to purely economic reasons it's the fastest pace of job losses and this is the tip of the iceberg. We'll be seeing several hundreds of thousands of unemployment claims going up in the next couple of weeks so we have government officials working. It sounds like feverishly to get money out to human beings and businesses. Did you think it would help? If when we get to the other side of this to actually bring those people rapidly back to work is really important. We need the fiscal stopgap measures. So on the other side of it we actually could also see a precipitous drop in unemployment claims. People returned to work and the economy. Ramps up again. That's the goal is to get through the health crisis and not have it be permanent damage to the US economy so that people lose both their health and their economic fortunes. Diane swonk economist at Grant Thornton. Thank you very much. Thank you with the Federal Reserve and the European Central Bank. Strive to keep credit flowing to markets in businesses stock markets. Have yet to find much of a toehold this morning in early trading the Dow is down five hundred nineteen points two point six percent the S. and P. Five hundred is down two point one percent. The Nasdaq Composite Index is down six tenths percent. The ten year yield is down at one point one three percent a sign that bond markets are com herb with interest rates down a bit crude oil after dropping twenty four percent for a time. Yesterday is up seven point four percent now. Gold is down slightly fourteen. Seventy four announce so there's that more industries are buckling the economic strain of the Corona Virus in Detroit. The Big Three automakers say after. Today's evening shift wraps up the shutting down factories until at least March thirtieth marketplace's. Kimberly Adams is here with some details. David this covers for General Motors and Fiat Chrysler plants all through North America. The United Auto Workers Unions had been calling for a production halt. Here's Michelle Krebs at Cox Automotive. It was clear that There was a lot of fear among the employees at some of the plants where there had actually been employees that tested positive for the virus but also indeed Sales are falling off. So Kimberly safety concerns in the fact that people may not be in the mood or be able to access to the credit to buy a car during a pandemic right automakers in Europe have already shut down factories and foreign carmakers in the. Us are also closing for a couple of days or a couple of weeks. Toyota. For example says it's shutting down for a bit for a deep clean and to help employees adjust to the school shutdowns and the other changes. That were all experiencing temporary closures. Then what are these factories? GonNa go back online couple of weeks. Maybe we'll stick with the Toyota example. The company says it plans to resume production after the two days off but that slowing demand is going to make it tough for all of these companies. Although American automakers are in talks with the government to possibly retool some plans to make medical equipment like badly-needed ventilators. Kimberly thanks. There's news the feds are suspending. Fictions and foreclosures for people in federal housing projects and for homeowners with mortgages backed by the Federal Housing Administration Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac and a growing number of cities and states are also putting temporary holds. On fictions here's marketplace's Samantha. Fields as dramatic as the last week has been the country's top infectious disease. Dr Anthony FAUCI warns. Things will get worse than they are right now. He means health wise. But that's also true economically which is why the trump administration just announced it is suspending evictions and foreclosures for people living in public housing. And for anyone with a single family mortgage backed by the fha Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac there are so many people who are already losing their jobs so many people who are living paycheck to paycheck San Francisco Mayor. London breed was one of the first to enact a citywide moratorium on infections late last week with Iran virus. We know that there are going to be a number of people who may not be able to pay their rent and so it was important to make sure that as we're dealing with this that we don't make our homeless challenge worse than what it is now. A growing number of cities and states have since enacted similar measures including Los Angeles Seattle Kentucky and New York. Diana Intel is president and CEO of the National Low Income Housing Coalition. The very least that policy makers can do during a national health. Emergency is make sure that more people aren't pushed into homelessness through fictions or foreclosures. Like so much. These days Intel says this is both an economic and a public health issue. It's never been more obvious than it is right now. That housing is healthcare and if people are not housed they lose the ability to protect themselves and their community from getting sick. There have been mixed responses to the moratoriums from landlord groups. One in New York. The Community Housing Improvement Program said in a statement that if lawmakers quote choose to enact moratoriums we hope they will include appropriate compensation to building owners to cover financial losses. I'm Samantha fields for marketplace among the tools were offering for people adapting to the changes caused by this virus. Marketplace's make me smart broadcast. This week. Looks what happens to students during school closures and how the closures have wider economic effects. You can subscribe free to make me smart wherever you get your podcasts. I'm David Brancaccio with the marketplace morning report from APM American public media.
FoundationDB with Ryan Worl
"Foundation db izzy multi model distributed key value store is fully acid compliant an horizontally scale herbal foundation db is not usually used directly by an application developer foundation db is a foundational foundational building block for higher level distributed systems such as be met a data storage system for a data warehousing tool like snowflake ryan world is eight software engineer who specializes in foundation db he he joins the show to discuss the architecture of foundation db including the roles of different server components and the reid end right path of foundation db we also talk about applications of foundation db and how it compares just storage engines such as rocks db end databases such as cockroach db end spanner if you wanna find all of our episodes about distributed systems and large scale databases you can check out the software daily app for i o s it includes all one thousand over old episodes as well is related links and greatest hits in topics and reading material you could comment on episode you could have discussions with members of the community and you could become a paid subscriber you can get add free episodes of software engineering daily by going to suffer engineering daily dot com slash subscribe andy if you're looking for help with mobile and web development i recommend checking out all tala g there the company that has helped us build they newest version of the song for daily after i o s an android app is on its way to another two to four weeks away and i'm really excited to have should have to offer some apps for software engineering daily double shouldn't be any apps dorothy one fry is already there it's quite good show please check it out if you're interested digital ocean is simple developer friendly cloud platform digital ocean is optimized to make managing and scaling applications easy within intuitive apn by multiple storage options integrated firewalls load balancers and more with predictable pricing and flexible configurations and world class customer support you'll get access to all the infrastructure services you need to grow end digital ocean is simple if you don't need the complexity of the complex cloud providers tryout digital ocean with their simple interface and they're great customer support plus they've got two thousand plus tutorials help you stay up to date with the latest open source software and languages and frameworks you could get started on digital ocean for free at d o dot c o slash s e daily one thing that makes digital ocean special is there really interested in long term developer productivity and i remember one particular example this when i found a tutorial on digital ocean about how to get started on different cloud provider and i thought that really stood for a sense of confidence end and attention to just getting developers off the ground faster andrew they continue to do that with digital ocean today all their services are easy to use an have simple interfaces try it out at d o dot ceo slash s e daily that's the letter d the letter oh dot the letter c the letter oh slash jesse daily end you will get started for free with free credits thanks digital ocean for being a sponsor of software engineering daily ryan world welcome to the show nice to be here thank you were gonna talk about foundation db today and i'd like to start by discussing these applications a foundation db what would i used foundation db beat build that is they very tough question because it's so applicable to so many different problem domains and you'd be able to use it in so many different ways but just to the most basic use case for it would be be you need some key value storage that you need to be able to transact across any of the keys at anytime so it's presented itself as a single system to you and you can do transactions every keys you want but it's really important so no you you're not designed you just in that way you're supposed to build stuff on top of that takes advantage of that to do fancier things is that where the name foundation db comes from the fact that it is meant to be used as a foundation to build more abstract systems yes as far as i know that is the conceit there where the the name comes from there's a the company is it would be ten years old today not today but this year if it were if it were still a private company in that city origin story as far as i know but that was a long time ago and i wasn't there indeed so there are many different key value stores in the world people and people were listening this approximately were in memory systems like reddish was sign tiredly in memory but or systems like mongo db it's at a document storage system a there's things like spanner and cockroach db well i guess those were those were more sequel transaction outy there's you know you've got rocks stevie and maybe wouldn't go through these comparisons at a little bit later but before we get to the comparisons can you give us more narrow definition of win and why i would use foundation dp even as a building block for a different system yeah so v v important important criteria you would need to evaluate whether not financially be is this good for your specific use case is if you are expecting these storage to exceed the capacity of a single machine that it'd be a good good place to start because it's eight distribute give eyesore designed to run on multiple machines you'd also want to know that you you need transactions on their certain use cases like an obvious one is surely reid only data or transactions were not be particularly securely useful but once you get past those two things basically you need you need something that that has the capacity to grow be honest machine in you need transactions those would be about the two things i would say their specific you know different issues when it comes to performance and the cost of using foundation db in terms of maybe it's not as efficient as some other system that you could compare it against but those were in the weeds and i think that if you if you know that you need both scale so out of storage end a number of requests per second so you could process andy transactions those would be too good criteria start all right well it's clear to me at this point they were going to need to delve into the subtleties of foundation db in order to truly understand and win in why we should be using it but just so weaken anchor are understanding around some prototypical use case can you tell me one or two places where you have seen foundation db particularly so i don't know if it's a shopping cart application or a video game you know data management just some concrete application for us to anchor are understanding around yeah so i think a good good example that has been talked about a relatively publicly including at the foundation db summit is the use case from snowflake which is the the cloud data warehouse company they use foundation db to manages the medic data for their cloud data warehouse and i met a data i basically mean this is a bit you know in the weeds of their specific architecture but they store thee the data the tables and the data warehouse in s three and the minute data about you know what files long what table is in foundation db in all along side that they also store all of these kind of generic well teepee type data that people are familiar with user record's in accounts and permissions and things like that those are all sorting foundation db is well so it's a it's a combination of the meditate for be actual data warehouse itself along with all of these supporting cloud services on top that are basically access control in management things like that why now i'm seeing snowflake in a totally different light we did a show about snowflake awhile ago and if i recall one thing that makes snowflake pretty good in and this is something you want out of a data warehouse is you've got you're piles and piles of data andy you want fast access to that data one way the get fast access to your data is to index it in a bunch of different ways and index gives you fast access faster look up time and i think in index is kind of one form of met a data a data about the data the data that you're actually indexing end building meditate around is is the data that you're throwing in your data warehouse but you need a way to to comprehend that data end that is the meditative store that will exist in the data warehouse so so it makes sense to me that you know a met at a fast meditative store that is that is eventually 'cause i think there's kind of an individual consistency element to a foundation db it's not it's not as maybe a strongly consistent as ono's made it is it is yes it provides be exact same semantics as a spanner does their or externally consistent strictly serialized full okay then i will stop talking but i just wanna say it is interesting just to see that use case could you delve into a little more detail as to why that is a useful application for foundation db like what like you know given this i think snowflake restarted what like probably around nine or ten years eight or nine years ago something around the same time as foundation db what were the other options that that snowflake as a data warehouse company could have used around that time and why was foundation db a useful fit yeah so from my understanding they they originally tried using my sequel and the reason that they that they would need amended is store besides just managing the set of files that are part of the table is they also need the transaction model for snowflake is actually snapshot isolation solution so as a part of that you do need to manage ongoing transactions it's not it's not purely reid only data and as part of that they use foundation db tomatoes the locks and other things that 'em like implemented transactions after foundation db layer and when they were using my sequel again this is from my understanding i i've never worked at a snowflake they just want confident if they would be able to deploy scale my sequel at a level that they needed and have the confidence that they needed in it because for example in the default replication configuration replication in my sequel is asynchronous so you could lose some data in between a primary in a replica if the primary fails before replicated data to the replica i'm so without asian you either their application synchronous ends like you're just there a lot you get more guarantees out of it basically been what you get out of my sequel so that's why it wasn't what's important for them to have a not only eight scale bowl meditative store but something strongly consistent so they could implement the transaction model personal slick and just to build a little bit more of a foundational clarification again this is i think one thing that makes this an abstraction that is useful for building higher level abstractions is as i understand the eight pr offer foundation db is not something that you would wanna give to an application developer like a higher level application developer like if i'm building you know an accounting software for example i might want a sequel poi or i might want a document a database eight poi and i think foundation db provides in eight pr that's that's more granular more lower level you wouldn't actually want be be accounting software application developer to be accessing foundation db direct is that hackers eight pm eighty more kind of infrastructure developers that is correct it is it is purely a navy i mean i i wouldn't wanna say you would never want an application developer to use it because i'm sure simply use cases it may be perfectly fine but for for a more complicated apple like accounting software firm you're example you'd be implementing a lot of things that are you know a part of higher level database offer it like for example simple secondary indexes secondary indexes are eight a construct that you build out of keys and values in foundation db m and specifically you just make like one one range of keys be secondary index on eight different range of keys and we could talk about that type of thing more a bit later but yes the the things you build without are typically higher level abstractions for other people to use like for example apple open sourced a recently v the record's layer which is a part of it's used with an i cloud is a part of cloud kit and that is a library exposed to application developers at apple working on me icon system so that they can they can get the benefits of something that looks roughly like her relational base although it's not sequel and that users foundation dutifully underlying data storage cox automotive is technology company behind kelley blue book auto trader dot com in many other car sales an information platform cox automotive transforms the way the world buys sells end owns cars they have the data and the user base to understand the future of car purchasing an ownership cox automotive is looking for software engineers data engineers scrum masters and the variety of other positions help help push the technology forward if you want to innovate in the world of car buying selling an ownership checkout cox auto tech dot com that's c o x s u t o t e c h h dot com to find out more about career opportunities and what it's like working at cox automotive cox automotive isn't a car company their technology company that's transforming the automotive industry thanks to to cox automotive end if you wanna support the show end checkout deep job opportunities cox automotive good at cox auto tech dot com let's talk about the architecture in then will get into these transaction system of foundation db and the reason i wanna discuss those two elements just because i think this makes it more it's gonna be impossible to cover all of the intricacies of a foundation db but in order to give people an understanding of how this thing relates to other database systems i think going through these architecture and the transaction outy will be useful so a foundation db server cluster it's distributed system scott three types of servers you've got the storage notes which dorthe actual data you've got be coordinators which run paxos and do leader election and then you have eight transactional authority explain what a transactional authority is yeah so in in foundation it'd be the transactional authority is factually multiple pieces that scale out across across multiple machines but it's kind of its own component that you could think of it that way what the transactional authority does is responsible for and will talk about this more in detail later but the core us basically saying that everything is built on top of and foundation maybe it's called the version and the version is just a number it's a counter if people are familiar with with database with database theory it's basically what you would call a time stamp oracle and it is just a number that counts up goes on about a million a million times a second in this is used as a clock within the cluster to order transactions and that's held on a component called the master and this is they singleton process on the call sir and i can talk about later why this is not a scale ability a bottleneck but just for now moving onto the other piece the the second most important piece would be resolved hers and the result is run an algorithm in parallel across multiple machines or multiple cores and the solvers taken transactions broken up by ranges of keys that have been written so foundation he isn't ordered database the keys are stored in order lexical graphically and they the resolve ers detect if transactions conflicts between v reid version of transaction and commit version of your transaction just going back to the verse number i talked about before you get one when you start a transaction and you get when you when you commit so the result is detective any he has been modified that you read ed between you're reid version commit version that's basically what the result version and they do that in parallel shorted by key range and when one of them says you're transaction has conflicted messages sent to the proxy which is a different role that's that's kind of part of the transactions system kind of part of the clients it's basically the it's called the proxy for a reason it intermediates the communication between the client and the rest of the system and win any one of their resolve versus you're transaction has failed it will send a message back to a proxy telling that will tell your clients to eventually reach trier transaction because foundation devious i'm optimistic and currency system and your you have to be prepared for you're transactions failing because of conflict and the client libraries basically basically hold your hand in writing a transaction that is easy to retry 'em they basically all just accept a function of the library itself will call multiple times as you're transaction conflicts 'em so it's kind of transparent to you you don't have to think about it very much yeah that's basically what the transactional forwarded us it's i think that documentation came back from when it was a commercial product to it wasn't super detailed but that's what these these underlying implementation looks like from harlem how many no do you need to have a transactional authority function is it supposed to so the way that foundation if he is written you actually for production us ready coster you need more of the mess but all of the rules actually run within a single process and that that is useful for new just deploying at on your laptop for example but even in a production scale deployment where you may want to have at least five machines in the clusters of that the coordinators can have have a quorum of five members to handle failures of of any two members without losing the database there's an interaction in the code between the roles that eight physical operating system process performs in the roles of the database so it's kind of up to you in terms of how many processes you're runner you want to run but the way that you deploy it is basically you deploy one process per core on the machine and the cluster can handle signing rolls to the different processes but you also are given some hooks say i would prefer this machine have this number of processes of this type in december of processes about type so you're you're you get a lot of freedom in that configuration that's where some people stumble foundation they should be unfortunately just doing that configuration part but there's lots of help on the forums so to answer the question basically it's it's up to you m you need a minimum of three to do they you know of a redundant deployment five would be more realistic and that's just five course but you would obviously use all of the course on whatever machines you're deploying to so that's basically it i've seen database architectures that do not have eight component quality transactional authority why do i need this thing what problems does it transactional authorities solve these transactional authority and finish should be used because foundation is not architect of like traditional clustered database i would say it looks much more similar similar to how you design a multi core database because basically assuming that all the communication between threads on a machine is is reliable which is generally speaking is you would design a parallel database as imperil on a single machine multiple threats you design it somewhat like this and the sense of you know different threads performing the transaction isolation function you'd have a thread that keeps track of the clock in the machine to basically order order the transactions across the multiple threads what what other databases typically do is they used distributed consensus algorithms like a pack sosa raft on the committee path of transactions so they they themselves are performing that someone would be some of the job of isolation and then they also have locks that look much more like a traditional like a to phase locking architecture there's other architectures but the way foundation of you works in general is there is a cluster is assumed to be unavailable working state the process of the transactional authority that is an whenever any of those processes fail that is detected and all of them are replaced to basically make a new version of the transaction system so it's operating all as a cohesive unit and that is really important for how foundation you'd be guarantees it's it's isolation level there no no transactions will proceed during any failure of the transactional authority and that sounds kinda scary you're like oh is that a single point of failure well in some sensitive but andy in practice what happens when one of those processes sale it's part of the transactional authority is the database goes through what's called a recovery which takes a few seconds to recruit a new process to replace the the one that failed and it's it's really not that big of a deal obviously you don't want it to happen all the time and it can be slightly disruptive of those two seconds but the important thing the knows that the database still maintains all which guarantees it it's giving do you like the fact that you have a nasa transaction and it's not acid in the sense of oh we don't have any of isolation bugs that are actually named envy the sequels back that could happen during for example like repeatable reader reid committed it's like actually extremely consistent strictly serialized novel in the strongest sense of the word let's talk through transaction let's talk through reid underwrite when a client is interacting with a foundation db cluster for reid so let's say my for example my my my clients my my my this is guys is complicated example but if you know some snowflakes meditate a server makes a request to foundation db to get to reads some information about the matter data that saying you're snowflake db do you be a actual you know s three stored data you know you've gotta do reid so this this client is going to interact with the transactional authority initially what happens in that in that interaction between client and the transactional authority suffer reid transaction you start a transaction and you talk to the proxy and this is there is no non transactional reid just so you know i have to go through this but in the beginning here this happens for any transaction you perform with some cabbie out but i can talk about later but that are not that important there's performance optimizations your client will ask the proxy to get you the reader version for you're turned action by the way is where's the proxy said is that kind of on the clients that are on the server siders middleware the proxy is its own role deployed within the cluster just like any of these other roles so you you deploy storage processes a transaction processes coordinators one of the rules is just called proxy and it's just like any other roles in the database you know deployed any any differently you're quiet library which the client library foundation db is a it's written in a rich it's exposed as a see library in all of these clients make rappers for the sea library and your client library does very important things for you and there's a reason why people don't just go implant protocol and why they used the client library it's because the crime rate is a lot of sophisticated things one of the things at a does is it batches the request to proxies just start transactions among multiple transactions on your client so you you you have that first level bashing what happens where multiple begin transaction quests or bash together then they're sent to a proxy the proxy does another layer batching there between other shirt transaction requests and then the batch that is sitting on a proxy the proxy send a very small message that basically says give me commit versions or give me reid versions and the real version is be highest version has ever been committed to the database previously and this is important for maintaining causal consistency among near reads so you wendy a win the masters since back three version to the proxy the proxy then replies to all of the batches of this received with three version for that trump doctrine so that is part of the explanation why the master is not conceivably a bottleneck insert until you're on absurdly high transaction start rate so that's be getting a wreath version because foundation db is a multi version system and optimistic currency after that and for all of their reads after that you're client does not go through the proxy you're client talks directly to the store and servers that have the data and this is another important difference between many other database systems and foundation db is that all of the story replicas of you're data can participate equally in reads an usually another system you could only either if you want the most up to date data you could only reid from the leader of that shard in foundation db doesn't doesn't work that way you could reach from any of the the replicas of that shard by the way the shorting is not exposed to you fall transparent clients talks directly to the source over the has the data and says hi i would like to eat this key at this version and you're quiet just returns the data to directly so any further reads after that that's all you're doing is directly talking to store services know going through proxies i'm so it's it's very efficient when the client gets this reid at the rita's called they consistent reid version could you talk a little bit more about the version ing here what is it what is it reid version of the reader version is just is sixty four bit number counts up overtime approximately one million per second and a dd owner of that number is the master it basically access the thing that hands out the versions and that's important because there can only be one in the cluster if you want to be able to compare these versions and know that you know there are two parallel tracks of transactions committing the database like a split brings scenario basically is what that would be called you there's only one of these in the the version is used in the true sense of multi version storage system so there are different at different points in time which are different versions there could be different values for keys you if you update a key at say version ten just some some value doesn't matter what the value is an eight client client comes along and says i would like to reid at version ten you'll get that value if at some point later another client updates that key and say that's a version twenty be declined that's stuck at version ten it will always get the data that's at version ten or if there's another client that is reaching out version ten it will get the data version so there are different values her keys at a different points in time and that's how you get it consistent snapshot of the database at that point in time is all of you're reads are done i thought version or their situations in foundation db they can leads to problematic reid inconsistency or maybe you could just talk about what i mean you you spoke about strong consistency earlier what is the consistency story of foundation db in in you know the circumstances where maybe i'm trading off you know as i get a slower database experience in exchange for strong consistency tell me about the kind of problematic cases in it for the reid pat so so generally speaking no you're not trading off for especially for reads you're not trading off anything for consistency if anything it's on the right path of where things get more complicated in the way that transactions working and foundation be in terms of the consistency model and here i'm talking about consistency in cap and the cap term sense and from that perspective they're talking about linear icicle which is basically if you have some object and you right to it all the rights and reached that object are happening in what is basically real time order there is no drifting backward in forward in time is different clients do their reid everybody sees the same thing in the end that is viewed that as a transaction model and it's not just and that's linear eyes ability embiid cap terms there's also serialize ability and that is he a the database or generally people were more familiar with that from from sequel databases serialize ability is basically just be the notion that you're transactions a happen in eighty defined order as if one of them executed at a time is importantly not you real time order any general sense of serialize ability you're transactions can be reordered under serialize ability what foundation she provides is stronger than both of those or i should say as strong as both of those combined you get what is called strict serialize ability which is when you're eyes ability plus serialized bility okay let's talk about the pat in more detail what happens during a right so in the in the most boring sense a nothing happens during all right the client library buffers all of her rights locally until you commit you're transaction so you couldn't be going along doing whatever you're doing her transaction reading and writing and you're rights don't have any latency you're rights just instantly return to you the actual rate operation where you're calling set on a key for example or delete sweet both of those operations happened instantly and when you commit you're transaction you're transactions what are called mutations she's basically just rights are all bundled together and they're sent to the proxy and this is where you basically start the transaction the transactional authority that you were talking about this is the start of that your that'd be a beginning when you contact the proxy you're sending your mutations end where called reid and right conflict ranges and those are the keys that you read in wrote in her transaction and this is gonna sound overly complicated for just doing us a simple right but there are no separate said foundation to be every transaction that rights data goes through this process so you send you're a you're eating right conflict rangers which with the keys but you read and wrote during a transaction tuesday plus mutations to the proxy the proxy takes the reason right catholic ranges those sent to the resolve are there is over performed the conflict detection and i talked about earlier if that passes you're mutations gets sent sent over to eight different process class so we haven't talked about yet called the transaction logs in your transaction needs to commit to all of the relevant transactional hugs importantly all not corum end by relevant i mean there is from what i understand this is this is some my my weaker understanding of foundation to be is that the way the transaction lungs work is that they're shorted by key arrange an if you happen to write all of you're if all of the keys you right happened to be destined for one transaction along because you just let's just say that you wrote one key it's only nationally gonna be destined for one short at that point so it needs to be replicated onto three transaction larks to maintain fault tolerance and this is important when i say not corum i mean all three if your transaction only rights to one shard there needs to be additionally replicated onto more transactional long sitter for different shards and there's a you don't have to think about this at all it's all handled for you but basically you're actually gets replicated onto the right number of transactions dogs to maintain fall tolerance and asynchronous lee the storage servers all whole data from the transaction log that owns the shark but they're part of in storage service kind of multiple shards the sharps and foundation will be kept relatively small fur even data distribution once you're transaction is successfully committed to all of the relevant transaction logs proxies little receiver applies saying good go his actions committed it pass conflict detection end it's on the transaction logs and that and replied her client saying the transaction committed successfully just a recap windsor right considered fully accepted by the cluster one of the situation such that have initiated a right the right has been fully except by the cluster in any reid to the cluster will now reid the data from that right lee point at which you're you're transaction is considered accepted is when you receive a reply sanger transaction committed successfully but the point at which that actually happens in the database is when it's committed onto all of the transaction logs there's unimportant caviar which is in any database not just foundation db if the message saying you're transaction committed successfully never arrives at your client you have no way of knowing whether transaction committed successfully or not and that's exposed you and foundation dv through an error message called a commit unknown result in that basically just says we don't know what happened it could be that the network went down right at inopportune moment when you were about to receiver apply 'em or it could be that recovery happens at some point when you're trying to commit you're transaction and at that point you just reach higher transaction and the important thing though is that just like any other system you need maker transactions item potent okay we've explored the transaction analogy in some detail with explore the architecture in some detail i noticed an imperfect away to assess databases basis but i'd like to do some comparisons so first of all when i think about lower level systems that we can build data systems on top of i think of abstraction known as h storage ridge engine so in a in mongo db for example there's a storage engine called a wired tiger i think in what's the my sequel semis my sequel storage engine a whatever they have some my sequel storage engine there's no db maybe an owner is also a lie rocks which is a rock stevie that is a new restrained users roxy right rock stevie okay do you consider foundation deviate storage engine yes i would say i do consider foundation you'd be a storage running but it also has storage engines internally there two of them at this point there is a d v ssd storage engine which is it uses db tree from sequel light and others also in in memory option which importantly importantly durably stores the data on disk and it has all the same transactional guarantees us ssd storage engine it just you just must have data that fits in memory so yes i would consider it storage engine in the sense of if you swapped eight foundation db cluster for an embedded value store that you would consider a storage engine like rock stevie for example the programming model would be very similar okay so how would we compare foundation nation db to rocks db so it'd be this fundamental comparison i think at the at the lowest level if you were if you're using these ssd storage engine in foundation tv is that rock stevie isan ls on tree and and there are trade offs that 'em are probably outside of the scope of this discussion but basically they are different and depending on the workload one couldn't be better than any other not is very complicated in and of itself but be other comparison you could make is that as far as i know i i'm not super familiar with rocks tv but i don't think the transaction model is as rich and i don't know rocks db has multi version which is an important part of using foundation db is that you kind of transactions that are proceeding at at multiple versions so the comparison i would say is they're they're actually relatively similar from programming lotto perspective you just need to redo the the fine 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s e daily that one thousand dollars is nice but you might be making much more since those multiple onsite interviews would put you in a great position to potentially get multiple offers and then you could figure out what you're salary actually actually should be triple bite does not look at candidates backgrounds like resident mazen where they've worked in where they went to school triple bite only cares about whether someone code so i'm a huge fan of that aspect of their model this means it they work with lots of people from nontraditional and unusual backgrounds tickets start at just go triple bite dot com slash s e daily and take a quiz to get started there's very little risk end you might find yourself in a great position getting multiple onsite interviews from just one quiz end eight triple bite interview go triple by dot com slash s e daily try it out thinking triple by what about the banner for cockroach these he's consistent sequel databases globally consistent yes so again at a at a relatively superficial level important thing is that both of those offer a sequel interface they also interestingly enough are both built on top of value stars in if you reid original the original papers about spanner and some of the the papers further on like the paper on f one from google is well you'll see this manner is a key you value store and they describe it in relatively similar terms the foundation db but foundation tv is is very different from those databases when it comes to how it implements those guarantees both spanner in cockroach db attempt to use walk locks and spinner canoes warhawks to maintain its consistency because google deploys atomic clocks in gps clocks in their data center to maintain a very tight bounds on the the potential hawks cue and and you can get the you get that similar system from eight eighty w s as well through a system called pine sink as far as i know that you could use when you're deploying cockroach db a cockroach db's is a different system called hybrid logical clocks which has its own set of trade off but both of databases are attempting to be globally consistent in the sense that you're deploying them in multiple regions as multiple largely you know separated by hundreds or even thousands of miles geographically dispersed data centers and foundation eighty is is just if you deploy is single coster in the default configuration that would not be usable foundation coster the it would just it just wouldn't just wouldn't work right it's not designed to be globally distributed database there newer features that are being added right now and some of the some of which which already exist that allow you to deploy multi region coster which is essentially multiple officers that are communicating with each other that allow you to reason right data and you just pay a little bit of a wait and see penalty from the region medicine be reactive region and if you you know if you read the fine print of spanner in congress gb i think that'd be the difference between a multi region configuration of foundation db anvil latency penalties that you're paying doing doing you know global transactions and spanner they're they're actually not that different especially in foundation db if you're okay with steel reads in a multi region configuration you can reid you could still data you know very slightly sale from a secondary region without paying latency see penalty so from a different in the sense that they they also try to they do part what what i think is best described as partition consensus so hancock hershey in in in spanner they both do you consensus on individual shards of data so that for example you could have one shard that's down this having issues and another shark can be committing transactions just fine and if you're if you're data every transaction only touch data in the shortlist up then you don't even notice but phoenician doesn't work that way if any of the nose in the transactional subsystem are down after do recovery says it only takes a couple of seconds so the difference is i think are very important but for an application developer if you're not deploying a database in multiple regions and you're just for example using cocker stevie in one reason or spanner in one region ignoring the sequel aspect of it which is very important admittedly wouldn't feel different to let's revisit some areas of foundation db foundation db has abstraction called eight layer what is eight layer layer is an agreement between two different pieces of software potentially just the same software running on multiple machines to agree on the format of keys and values so that a cheese and values written by one program could be interpreted by another program in some higher level way but it's not just the raw bites of the keys in the values and i think be the best example of this that is basically used by it's used by most of the higher level players the people dome is what's called the to layer and the triple layer a hitting it exposes napier that allows you to encode two goals which in most programming languages are just arrays an it takes individual elements of those two balls like strings managers floats raw bite strings an dating codes that in way that will sort intuitively so for example you could have an array of of two values could be the string hey andy integer one if you encode that that will come before as than if to arrange reid it will be it will come first before another to build out for example could be in coated as first element string hey with senator to seek and reid things back out in order and you could build these tools represent higher little things in your data model and if different pieces of software or the same softer running on multiple machines all understand the two belair and the two boyer comes with all of these all of these official bindings end probably all the community bindings as well her foundation tv you can have different piece of software inter operating on the same data foundation db is written in flow which is as i understand language designed mind for foundation db so there's there's a domain specific language for creating foundation db it compiles c plus plus why this foundation db needed to own language flow is is i would say mostly c plus plus on anybody that's pergram zibo social look at this and say this is c plus plus what flow does it say a it's a very simple compiler that as a few features that basically expose actor model currency to c plus plus and it makes it easier to write concurrent programs and c plus plus the reason why that wasn't necessary is that foundation debuts this tested in a very rigorous way using what's called the deterministic simulation and the reason they needed a new programming language which to do this is not to get a deterministic simulation you have to make something that is deterministic it's kind of obvious but it's hard to do for example if you're process interacts with the network or desks or clocks it's not deterministic if you have multiple threads a not deterministic so they needed a way to write a concurrent program that could chocolate networks in desks and that type of thing they need a waiter right and current program that does all of those things you would think her deterministic ended deterministic way so all foundation db processes and foundation eighty it's basically all written inflow except a very small amount of it from a sequel i betrayed the reason why that was was useful is that when you use flow you get all these higher level attractions that let you do what feels to you like asynchronous stuff but under the hood it's all implemented using call backs nc boss boss which you can make deterministic by running it any single thread so there's a there's a sketch schuler that just calls these call backs one after another and it's it's very crazy looking c plus plus go like you wouldn't wanna you want wanna read it but it's because of flow they were able to implement that deterministic simulation why did you get interested in foundation db be reason that i was interested in foundation tv is that at many companies that i've that i've worked with and jobs that i've had they're just there is an explosion of different data systems as the company goes from you know just starting or not that big they start out with something like a really a single relational database and then add a background job q in cash and then add a search engine and they realized that they need to start putting things kafka so that it's easier to make those downstream things consistent and it just is piles and piles and piles of stuff in there the the way the foundation of beacon help with that is you you could build all of these if you build these systems all inside a foundation db with transactions so it's very trivial to write these like these big complicated system you would you would need a bunch of of different databases for you implement the parts of that that you need for yourself in foundation maybe maybe an it's all in one cluster and it's just one eighty i learn it's a lot simpler it's a different it is very different from from the way people used to thinking about these systems but i think there are a lot of benefits if you you if you understand it and you you buy into the idea that you're gonna do you're gonna do some things yourself 'em it's gonna be different but be the product they end up with at the end is is easier free easier using better and has has stronger guarantees why did apple by foundation db that's a great question i don't actually know a concrete answer but i think that the reason why anybody would want using are very similar to what apple would buy it i understand that apple is a very heavy user of cassandra and be as you deploy very large cassandra crossers is i'm sure people that have used cassandra would tell you it could be difficult to deploy large cassandra crusher manageable a large amount of data in the guarantees you get from cassandra are not particularly strong there nothing like the guarantees you get from condition tv for example so if you if you wanna provide if you have a system like i cloud for example which is eases the record's layer now you want you're application developers to be able to have me they wanna make these systems a store and process a large amount of data like there's a ton of data and i cloud but they don't want to have to they don't want everybody to be distributed systems experts to make something that actually works which is a challenge when you're you're running at the you know those giant scales is that if you wanna have something usable that actually you know it's scales and it can handle the load of requests that you're customers are generating you need something that you use denise something like cassandra that gave up some guarantees on her gd scale ability but with foundation db it skills fairly well and i i can understand why apple would wanna wanna use it how is the foundation foundation db community evolved since then acquisition v foundation community is relatively small but it's made up and you you wouldn't know this and i don't think most people know this but there are a lot of large companies companies they you've heard of evaluating foundation db she used for various use cases in their company i don't think i have anybody that i'd feel comfortable naming on a on a show like this but basically suffice it to say even if it doesn't look like the community is big the community is filled with lart people that work at large important companies because foundation to be such an interesting and compelling technology that even if it doesn't end up being deployed people get educated enough to definitely investigate we've done a number of shows from companies that either explicitly or a or have been given the qualification from the extra null commentators as this definition of new sequel a there's this this term new sequel and i think this is kind of a a perspective of a it's a multi model sequel a system like there's these systems that they want to solve all the different problems you want out data platform you want sequel you want a document you want data warehousing maybe even wanna data lake you want as many things as possible out of this shame a repository of data data that's kind of the way that i see new sequel the but people have their varying definitions do you have a definition fruit for new sequel do you have a perspective on that term or that trended that set a database companies and projects i do i think that the the best definition of no sequel that doesn't try to include any new database built in the last ten years 'cause it's very easy to do that i think new sequel is defined by just a few things they need a sequel interface a they typically like to piggyback off of some existing wire protocols like my sequel post grass because it's easy clients were in in every language and they try to provide sequel database that scale some multiple machines without giving up too many of the features that people are used to another single node relational databases where this gets complicated though is they do give up most of them except spanner end and to an extent cockroach db although i would say these the chew that have these strongest guarantees would be better are new sequel would be would be spanner it'd be the strongest 'em if you wanna talk and foundation has basically the same consistency guarantees us a spare they tried to provide that you know it's it feels like a sequel database but you can't in a lot of them you can't turn on serialized violation or if you do it's really slow but basically they're just trying a variety scale out sequel database i think but when you get into these other areas that are like documents you kind of get into yeah i mean it's a multi model database would be a better way to describe it in the new sequel but the the davis landscape is a very complicated now you have three the fine print a lot understand what these systems really do and you know even if they offer an eight p i something for example it may not be very good so you just have to do research ryan world thank you for coming on the show it's been great talking to you thank you go cd is continuous delivery tool from thought works if you have heard about continuous delivery but you don't know what it looks like an action try the go cd test drive at go cd dot org slash s e daily go cds test dr will set up example pipelines per you just see how go cd manages you're continuous delivery workflows visualize your deployment pipelines and understand which test surpassing end which tester failing continuous delivery helps you release sure software faster and more reliably checkout go cd by going to go cd dot org slash s e daily and try out go cd to get continuous delivery for your next project wow
Marie Kondo is sparking joy at the thrift shop
"This. Marketplace podcast is brought to you by Amazon web services, helping millions of customers from startups to enterprises to governments transform their industries with secure a already cloud services. Learn more at AWS is how dot com slash podcast. Interest rates trade war water under the bridge in New York. I'm Sabrina short infra David Brancaccio since the early part of the year markets have kind of been on a gentle rise volatilities been gently falling. There haven't been any crazy shocks or crazy rallies. Which is such a contrast to where we were at the end of last year things are now just kind of calm are they to calm. Susan Schmidt is head of US equities with Aviva investors. Good morning. Good morning. So if we go back to the beginning of this year markets were burdened with great anxiety over a number of issues and people said, well, look, let's wait and see what happens with earning season. It'll be some hard data to ground markets. Well, we're at the end of earning season now. So so what happened to work? We saw some good data. We had company managements coming out telling testings, we're looking and I think the market took a lot of reassurance. From those facts right now, the market's looking at the same China looks like it's probably going to be okay. The fed has come out and said, they're very, supportive and. Overall. Consumer confidence is still pretty good. Well, I guess the the Federal Reserve has gone to great lengths to sort of calm markets down and say it's gonna take a cautious approach to rates, but China's still up in the air Brexit is who knows what's going on there these aren't problems. That's a good point. Because those issues are still out there the markets, assuming that suddenly China trade which had been such a pressure point has basically gone away in the market to sue me. And that that is going to be resolved without great incident. Just a few comments from the administration on a high level that we're working towards an agreement that looks favorable has been taken to be very positive, and it's okay to move forward. And look pass this and will be resolved without great issue. That's not necessarily the case. So that's a risk going forward. Does not mean though, there's some sort of cognitive dissonance. I mean, these things are still risks. But we're just kind of looking the other way the market likes to focus on top line. Superficial news. Until when we see on the surface positive comments about China in the heard col- data points at the market has from CEO's and management teams talking about their businesses, which seems to be doing well, the market overall is stepping back and taking a look at this and saying all right? I'm not gonna panic anymore. I think it goes to show the importance of having actual data points and true fact coming into influence stock prices. That's what's supposed to happen. Had of US equities with Vive investors. Thank you, you Volkswagen Mercedes BMW Porsche, what do they have in common? They are European cars. You can buy here in the us. None of them are French French cars are a rarity here. But French carmaker Peugeot just announced it plans to return to the US market that it left more than twenty five years ago. Marketplace's Ben Bradford reports Peugeot is one of the world's oldest auto brands owned by one of the largest auto companies PSA the plan is for it to make its comeback to the world's second largest car market by twenty twenty six they've been putting out little more souls of what they plan to do Michelle Krebs. Enlisted Cox automotive says, it's not yet clear if we'll have Peugeot SUV's or Peugeot electric cars, the company is already establishing a car sharing service like zipcar which could help reduce the brand trying to break through and get onto customer awareness and customer consideration will take time Stephanie Brindley. I just markets spoke via Skype. So what is the Peugeot brand Krebs says it falls in between luxury car and mass market. They were interesting. They were you know, different. Neither Krebs nor Brindley could quit say how a French styling is a little bit different. It's hard to describe precisely. It's like if only there was some phrase, maybe in French, meaning an indescribable quality. I'm been Bradford for marketplace Italian. American automaker. Fiat Chrysler says it's going to spend four and a half billion dollars over the next three years to revamp several of its plants and create sixty five hundred new jobs. This is after cutting operations at one plant and eliminating fourteen hundred jobs. Arm shepherd from Lincoln Nebraska, and I listened to marketplace several times actually every day because it's got the economic news and developments that are important to me a donate to marketplace. So that it can be available to everyone and ask for hope. You'll join me in this effort. Thanks to join shepherd is a marketplace investor. Donate online at marketplace dot org. This marketplace podcast is brought to you by Kronos FMLA f l essay ACA EEOC it's harder than ever for businesses to keep up with today's evolving, alphabet soup of regulations. What's a company to do Cronos with Cronos you can minimize compliance risk and track HR policies making sure they are applied consistently and fairly HR payroll talent and timekeeping in one unified system all with a proven implementation approach and simplified transparent pricing. Learn more at Cronos dot com slash compliance. Kronos, workforce innovation that works. Well, we have a pretty good idea where all that joyless stuff. You've been Marie condo con-going out of your home's is going thrift stores marketplace hub reporter Peggy low from case your reports, even before the new year Beth cap had been thinking about clearing the clutter in her Kansas City, Missouri home just the thought of the holidays was making her anxious. Single mom with two kids knew they'd get presence, which meant even more stuff than after the holidays. I was watching on net. Flicks the show, and it was really interesting to see her process because I knew there were things I needed to do. But I didn't really know where to start that show was tidying up with Marie condo, which premiered on Netflix. This year condo enters people's homes and teaches them her method of organizing. A condo encourages people to keep only things that speak to the heart and to discard items that no longer spark joy that advice may have led to a spike in donations at thrift stores and resale shops like this goodwill in Kansas City. This is where we receive and separate or donations. So let's go to the donation door and talk about what we do in the customers put up kisha gracious is a manager here this year. They've seen a fourteen percent increase in donations over last year. So we're not sure if the uptake is totally to do with the Marie condo show. Generally this time of year. We do have an uptick in our donations nationally, a goodwill Representative says stores are reporting a ten to twenty percent increase in donations. And some of it is attributed to them Rekondo show, Beth cab has been working on condo ising her home for a couple months. Now, I really like my house more. And I feel more relaxed and more peaceful knowing where things go and being able to find them, but it's not all boon for the resale business. Adele Meyer, executive director of the association of resale professionals says lots of the stuff that's been donated is older because people haven't regularly cleaned out their homes. So it's costing some stores to have that junk recycled in Kansas City. I'm Peggy low for marketplace. Benesch? Sure with the marketplace morning report. For P m American public media. This marketplace podcast is brought to you by welcome does your healthcare organization. Give people the support they need outside the walls of care delivery. It's time for a new approach. Well, frame calls it digital health management by delivering resources and guidance to address chronic conditions transitions of care as well as lifestyle, wellness and social determinants. Well, frame helps people in care teams build trusted relationships that Dr early interventions. Learn more at well, framed dot com.
Monday, June 8, 2020
"From Washington DC this is Westwood One Daily News for Monday June eighth twenty twenty. I'm Christopher Cruise. The body of George Floyd is now in Houston where he grew up for two days of funeral services, correspondent Clayton Neville says Floyd returned to Texas, followed memorials in Minneapolis, where he died in police custody, and in his birthdate of North Carolina after thousands, gathered outside, and tuned in for services in Minnesota and North Carolina Hugh Stones will have a chance to pay their respects to George, floyd many focused on powerful words spoken over the weekend in Raeford by Floyd Stepmother Ruby. Floyd and I'm not the one to prince, but I've come to tag today. That go. On. I don't know that to out there. Savage. Witness! And I'M GONNA. Tell you something wearing in bed. Love back in the universe. George Floyd was raised in Houston's third ward and was a well known former high school football player and rapper Brian Middleton is the district attorney in Fort Bend County outside Houston and says he's hopeful. ATTENTION TO FLOYD'S CASE prompts change. This is the judge. Is The prosecutors just the teachers industry is the. Virus neighbors a public viewing set for this afternoon at Belton appraised church. Social distancing will be enforced to prevent further spread of Covid nineteen when visitors get to the church will be required to go through a metal detector and temperature checks, masks, mandatory and no bags allowed in the building. Only fifteen people will be allowed inside the church at a time. Meanwhile, former Vice President Joe Biden expected to meet privately with George Floyd's family today the democratic. Democratic. Presidential candidate also plans to tape a video message will rendering floyd's funeral service on Tuesday Biden didn't want his secret service detail to be a distraction Tuesday's service will be private Clayton Neville. Houston, the former Minneapolis. Police officer Sheen in cellphone video with his knee on the neck of George Floyd will make his first court appearance today correspondent Jim Rupe reports. Sheldon's expected in court to hear the charges of second degree murder today but it. It is unclear if he will enter a plea. Three other officers involved in death did not enter pleas last week their bail was set at three quarters of a million dollars. Two of the officers are rookie cops and their lawyers are working to get their charges reduced Minnesota Attorney General Keith. Ellison says while his office believes their cases. Solid history does show their clear challenges here in that he says such cases have been under prosecuted in the. The, past I'm Jim. ROOPE president trump may speak to the nation this week, but aides say it isn't certain. His response to nationwide protests was criticized in a Washington Post op Ed by eighty, nine former civilian and military leaders White House correspondent Bob. Costantini reports a week ago after Sunday night of destruction and arson near the White, house Monday brought attorney. General William Bars ordered to clear protesters out of Lafayette Park nearby blocks, allowing president trump's. Bible at a church on CBS his face. The Nation Barges coming reports. President trump wanted to send an active duty military troops to keep the peace in DC we have adequate resources wouldn't need to use federal troops. Case we did. We wanted them nearby. The president never asked course suggested that we needed to deploy regular troops. At that point. The president tweets that he ordered the active duty forces away from DC quote now that everything is under perfect control, despite what was clearly a spat between him and the secretary of Defense, who openly said the insurrection act should not be. Be invoked a Wall Street. Journal NBC News Poll Shows Eighty percent of Americans think the country is out of control between the protests over the death of George Floyd and the corona virus epidemic including it's devastating effects on the economy president. Trump keeps tweeting law and order in all caps, but the president's response to the unrest, calling for governors to dominate protesters has. Has Former Joint Chiefs Chairman Retired General Colin. Powell on CNN state of the Union denouncing Mr Trump. He lies. He lies about things he gets away with it because people will not hold them accountable, Powell has taken heart in the number of former military brass including. James Madison. John Kelly, who were part of the administration are openly criticizing. We have a constitution and. And we have to follow the constitution and the president's drifted away from it I'm so proud of what these generals and admirals had done endorsed. Hillary Clinton for years ago, President Trump tweets in response Colin Powell real stiff, who was very responsible for getting us into the disastrous Middle East wars just announced he will be voting for another stiff sleepy Joe Biden. Bob Costantini Washington mortgage rates are at historic lows, but there are two problems with that qualifying for the low rates and finding a home, you can afford correspondent. Jeff McKay tells us about it. The thirty year fixed rate mortgage averages three point one percent during the week ending June fourth. That's just above the record low in May and the fifteen year fixed rate mortgage averages just two point six two percent, the problem getting access to these low. Banks and lenders push their credit scores standard above seven hundred, which is causing younger buyers to delay their home purchase now because of uncertainty in the job market and the corona virus buyers want to buy, but there's not enough sellers, one note to sellers with limited supply competition for homes that are on the market will be fears, and that will cause prices to go much much higher I'm Jeff Mackay if If you're planning on heading to the showroom to look over new cars, you might find. The cupboard is bare correspondent. John stolnis tells us about the surprising shortage of inventory as showrooms closed around the country. Due to the corona virus restrictions, many dealerships turned to zero percent financing and long-term auto loans to help entice people to buy, but industry insiders say those deals worked so well. That now is showrooms. Showrooms are opening back up again. Inventory is down auto analyst Michelle Krebs of Cox Automotive says in an ordinary month about two percent of new car sales are with zero percent financing, but in April more than one in five cars were sold that way and with auto factories shut down for weeks. No new inventory has replaced the cars. Dealerships have sold analysts say most factories are now operating but it. It will be a few weeks before inventory is back where it needs to be I'm John Stolnis, but covid nineteen pandemic has sparked interest in birdwatching correspondent Ann cates reports according to the Cornell lab of Ornithology, a May ninth bird spotting event drew more than two million observations, the most in a single day and close to sixty five hundred species were logged experts tell the New York Times at A. A combination of more people staying at home with the spring nesting season has led the some becoming amateur burgers. Their contributions to databases can help biologists and conservationists track bird populations and migration patterns, and there are APPs such a smart bird ide- to help newcomers I'm Anne cates. It's the cleanest air you can breathe on planet, Earth and correspondent. Stephan Kaufman tells us where we can find it researchers from. From Colorado State University have identified an atmospheric region which remains unchanged by human activity, the result the world's cleanest air. It's located over the southern ocean which surrounds Antarctica during the summer. The region doesn't have many fronts coming through originating from areas that are landlocked, especially at the surface is mostly air that's been with the ocean for quite some time. University researchers Sonia cried unwise says in addition ocean currents. Currents don't transport pollutants to the southern ocean from other parts of the globe has generally been pretty scrubbed clean by the time it begins to enter that part of the globe by being caught up in precipitation and cleaned up that way GRUDEN. Wise says it's possible that eventually pollutants may infiltrate the region because of changing circulations start getting air from some continental regions that could begin to affect this area. Area but it really depends on what sources we build up win, and then there's the influence of climate change and changes in climate can also of course effector curation that could start to bring air from some other regions into this area. The air over the Southern Ocean was free from Aerosol particles produced by human activity, including burning fossil fuels, planting certain Crotts, fertilizer, production and wastewater disposal. I'm Stephan Kaufman. And that's Westwood One Daily News for Monday June eight, twenty, twenty I'm Christopher Cruise?