20 Episode results for "Connie Chan"

The Righteous Anger of Aaron Peskin

The Bob Show

1:30:47 hr | Last month

The Righteous Anger of Aaron Peskin

"On today's show. Recovering the Bobmobile from the impound and protests against the city's resumption of poverty tows. Supervisor Aaro n Peskin says he'll seek treatment for alcohol after a testy exchange with Rec and Parks GM Phil Ginsburg . All this got the audio all this and more coming up. Let's get the show on the road all right. This is the Bob Show. It is June 13th, 2021, episode seven. I am Justin. This is the Bob and the Beast of Bob. The B east is boning away. You'll hear the bone crunching between his massive jowls. As we do this. So here on the Bob show we complain a lot. But we also celebrate victories victorious week it was indeed. The bob mobile is back. The bob mobile recovered. Tell us what happened. Well you know the law the beginnings of this Adventure yeah yeah so Anyway if you don't listen to last week's episode listened last week so anyway after last week's episode brother just kind enough to ford me The paperwork required to retrieve the vehicle. And catch a break. If you don't have enough money to pay the thousand and sixteen dollars at this thing wound up being assessed that this is under. The the city's sf mta's toe toe fee reduction program that we talked about a little bit less and they were kind enough After i got the car back to send me they were gonna put a lien on it or they were going to seize it. I don't know what you call it. informing that it was worth less than five hundred dollars. They had a special. Yeah they got it here so special for for cars that are worth less than five hundred dollars that they want to take auction off right so anyway. I took the form which told me to go to one fifty south in. Mta is located You know to Suetake for me. See if i could somehow justify getting the car back because other than my daughter. Nobody wanted me to get the car back. Because it's you know falling apart inside though it runs great and i love driving it and i don't need any other car used last year. I think maybe all three thousand miles. So i i i get on the bus. Go to buses and they get to the mta I go in wait in line. Doesn't take too long get to the front and the woman there tells me. oh now. here's all this stuff but now we don't do this here any longer after down to four fifty seven. Th street where your car is and they will do that. Here's the form no. You can't fill it out here and here's another car to call site to go to. It's the the impound lot on seventh street. Impound lot seven across the street from eight fifty bryant where they throw you jail. They do that too. That's true though. I haven't been in that jail. I've been in a few. But i have not been in bryan street. I've been a guest there. You have they combinations there. The baloney sandwich was exquisite. The baloney sandwiches universal. In fact. if you're missing it. You can go down to saint peter and paul's here and get your baloney sandwich. So anyway you wind up down at the impound. I go to the impound lot and i show them my form and i try and show my documentation that i didn't really make any money last year and They say oh no. No we get a stamp for this. Backup at one seventy otis street. Now otis street is a couple blocks above One fifty was the beast. Now the beasts was not until really pissed because the beasts could have been getting a good walkout had the walk the beasts. Before i left and i'm going to have to walk the beast when i get home and the beasts needs you know four to six miles exercise. He's getting half yeah he's not yet. Yeah and i'm not happy because you know i'm walking around. You might have been useful in the neighborhood. Walking around in. Who knows so you back up to back up to otis street. Wait in line there go in and They hooked me up. They say you know you're so broke that we're going to give your car back for one hundred dollars. Work that that work but they said it oh to street. You should go over tobacco. Mta and get a lifeline card. So that next time this happens to thirty -ticipant is going to happen again. You don't need to get to stamp you. just show them the carton. Give your car back and the lifeline. That's the for the free muny card right now. That's that's another car. Which i had sent away for while i was at mta the first time. That's a senior card. But when i went back there the woman who quite said look you know next time. You need a stamp for this. You said she'd stay up. What do you mean stab said they. They made me go to oda street for the stamp. She looked at me kind of feist. I didn't know that. I as much as you wanted to. Send me four fifty to walk all the way back up here. But now. I'm back for the car that they told me over otis street that you should give me his apnea cards for people under sixty five. You need the whatever the other cards gone called where you get the bus as i said gave that and i sent away for it. She's well that'll work. So i go back down to four fifty seventh on the way i had passed where they give out Where there's a city health was called Was city health to the anyway you can get you can apply for medical and you can apply for food stamps. Or whatever they call food stamps and anything else. You might need So my stopping you know. See what this is all about. Maybe i can get a card from these folks. I don't yeah. I qualify for the food. Stamps i qualify for the medi cal i qualify for the supplemental qualify all this stuff. I don't take it but a qualified for but anyway. I figured the cards might be useful. You know it could be like one of these aaa cards. Were on the cards. Where you get like discounts in old chitter porch could be fucking great right. So i stopped there just for shits and giggles because you know up to eight or nine miles of walking by now and i need a break. I gotta sit out with my peeps the poor so so so i go there. I get all that stuff and They don't have any cards for me. And i go back down to four fifty seven th to get the car to bail the car out where you know. They're delayed see me again. Of course on the most fun. They've had all day probably a week. So you know you know sympathetic behind the counter guy had an old car himself that he loved and and He said it's one hundred dollars i said. Wow that's cool. But i knew that from one seventy. There's another thing for first timers you first time tog- people towers out there where you can also catch prey on your first time. I guess but you didn't get the first timer. No i don't need the first time but that's only probably half or third or i mean they take something off substantial amount off put for one hundred bucks. I think for the first time where you can only get bucked off The first time is not as good deal as the the poverty. qualification right. If you need the paperwork to prove your poor. I mean it's like enough that you go in there rags and smell bed. You gotta have some pay per for this. Which fortunately i had finally after. What was it three trips to three places the yeah One two three well two trips to the same place. Mta one trip to otis three and two trips to four fifty n the stop in between a health and human services just for shits and giggles. Because you might as well make this you know something to talk. As i know all of what might have somebody else. Who's you know. An indigent might have to go through. And who wouldn't probably be able to figure this out as quickly as i did or with humor because you know you know i i had a few dollars in my pocket if i wanted to get stopped and have a beer or something in the way i could. We're going to get into alcohol on the job later in the show. You know. I personally think you should do all your drinking. In the morning. it's much healthier out of the just well. You can process you. Don't wanna be drinking later in the day it messes with the renal system at three in the morning. When your liver purges. It's much harder drink. I work later all right all right and the old days. You would not have considered going to work with drinking you. Many a politician is followed. That that adage you drink. Well hell you in this town. How could you not so anyway. I packed but there's war so that we goat ago up back in there. The guys are out there you they go look for my car. We walked to the far end of place. No car yeah. Why covered the whole lot. I know i know every inch of the whole thing now and they finally found that up in front in the past now we was buried three cars deep so they drag it out and everything so the question was were all of your possessions in there. Oh these people were all great. I mean everybody. i came across. That helped me through this. They you know i i. It's not uncommon to to get your car back in. It's been you know ransacked by what whoever's you know towed it or whatever. I don't know that that's true. All those cars. There didn't look like they've been ransacked. They don't go in the car to get it they put it on a lift and they drag it off your car's presumably locked and you didn't get you didn't get a charged for the lift. They charge you for detailed thing here. Where do you think the thousand and fifteen where they call that when they dragged the car around. Let's see storage citation storage to toe. Toe passenger view dolly dali towed six bucks paid forty. Six bucks did not pay for any dollars for everything all right but they charged me forty six twice because they had the dalai cup of course out of the way. Define my car berry. You guys are interested. Well so what day was that day the week that was monday. That was monday one day. Two days later on wednesday outside of sf mta office. This is what was going on poverty account. Mta people's homes poverty does not no parkas vehicles was giving them tickets totally their homes away feeling that belonging to resume. Poverty is shameful acts shelter in place so that was Carlos watkins of the coalition on homelessness and heavier bremond of Community housing partnership We talked last week about how during the pandemic the city put moratoriums on towing cars Remain in the same spot for seventy two hours or have registrations expired more than six months or have Five delinquent citations of more and all those moratoriums ended on may well one one of them ended on may seventeenth. The other one's going to end. June twenty-first So that's what these people were out protesting and you know. I mentioned last week. The the stark contrast between the city's decision to end these moratoriums on poverty toews versus the city's willingness to continue the anti-car barricades on jfk. Drive and great highway. And i do i should say i i should have one small correction. I misspoke slightly. When i said that those barricades have been made permanent. I should have said that. The barricades will continue as pilot programs after the shelter in place orders. Lifted in the city. Reopens continue the decision about whether to make them. Permanent will be basically all but a formality When those programs and I think that it's looking very likely that they are going to become permanent. Because that's what people in city government want and that's why they slid these things in under cover of darkness during the pandemic. You you introduce these pilot programs and you know as i said. It's very difficult to take them away from people who have money and power once you've introduced them and it's very easy to take away things from people who have no money no power like these poverty. To- moratoriums well you know we city government wants this city. Government wants this because well heeled and well funded community groups not the ones that represent the homeless now but the ones that represent the landed interests the real estate interest those neighborhoods and see value in increasing their property value. They want it to happen. And those organizations. Those neighbor of organizations have a lot of outs and they donate at least members impossibly the organization. Someone themselves probably not because they're nonprofit. They donate a lot of money to these people's campaigns. Yeah so you know. They're the ones that wanted. Closed as if by coalition nba action. All those drastic character and those characters are the ones that have closed down these roads and highways and And who love seeing cars get towed because they got garages to park their cars in right Cars what are you implying that they would own a car that you know. They hide the car while they take lift or goober around. I get it but they have a garage with a car in it for the suv that they used to drive to marin and or go skiing whatever they do. But they don't have a car with two hundred fifty four thousand miles for six thousand miles on it. So to close the loop on the the the great towing of the bob mobile epoch There was one file parties needed to be route. Yes that is the party that was re in food bank. People who you know have invaded San francisco san francisco can't figure out how to give. Its own food away. So the marin food bank is responsible for the The the the program that shuts down greenwich street outside Bob show headquarters every Every thursday and has for the past year mean. It's you know it's it's it's worthwhile what they're doing of course when they feed two thousand twenty five hundred people sure It's fine but they so they Get to setup they get the basically closed down an area of This block so that the to the parking they get to close down entire city block. Shut off traffic and and And sees all the parking on that block and get people toad who are there when they show up. I might mention this block is on the other side of playground from where the bathrooms are. It's also on the other side of the playground. Where a city block his own. Shut down for a program similar to the great highway. Good old slow streets slow streets. So now they're pilot program that was started directing the pandemic real public. Mom enter anything and it's a pilot program street could have been where they put the giveaway with the logical place to put it because the bathroom is there for the people. The thousands of people have been standing in line waiting some. We must have to the bathroom. Not only that you know there's parking that the there's there's no they're not only that there's there's a pool there so there's parking that's reserved are so we'll go on so let's hear what The bob had to say to The marin foodbank people in charge here we're all interact with my car got towed list thirty four years. I have two children. Okay fill issue. These shoes a little bit intimidated by the beast well. She had food here giveaway. Dan were not arguing well but they are all right. Beer roy for my by the term poisonous thousand sixteen dollars. The of words fell eighty. Never getting my car back on four without that farm. Border tried to children that have. I couldn't go get them into. This is a probable loss of parton a big club. See all those the author now. They weren't hearing stories. Have no party preferred park people at work you. She should run for districts supervisor. Important while she lies taught we have a been going on your them on windows seven morning. Jeff i understand that so. I'm sorry i'm entitled the food stamps. Even you start. It's for thousand dollars. Code would not have gotten total. Were it not for nothing. She gets hosing. Even the mayor has been going on for here now. Not only do four that year but the rich said you're on salary so two days a week. There is no party days a week. This is a huge problem. There's guys stop. The coin is gotta stop for any even there i. I can't listen to this person. Keep saying Here's the number call call You can call during business hours on you know you know. She reminds me a lot of danny. Solder yeah well you know. They're probably she's probably going to run for supervisor. That's i said it all right But i did miss speak. Those were grandchildren. I had not children though i did. Raise a child on that block. Grandchildren so it was a A not only a week for of victory with the bob mobile but also we had a victory concerning the beast of bob so tell us about So as you'll recall the beast of bob committed an act of terrorism and destroyed. Mike gabel Couple of weeks ago and so bob paid a visit. My got my car back for the important business of the week that the car back and was able to easily on tuesday head to guitar center. Let's let's hear how that went. So here we are outside the fabulous guitar center abuses. Doing walk canton share on then us know bushes since middle dogs. We are here to replace the mic cable. Which the beast consume them from. Jealousy over just or dog ate my mic cable. It that a cable so fine Noodling of musicians there in the background stuck in an elevator talking to the dog. The dog who a can't be the first time you've seen this Doggy my homework not to kill cable. Yes very innovative dog. I have doing everybody's a critic food right. Everybody's a critic I have no idea. Not a cable guy at all route ending to the show See see how much my doggie gate his cost me today. There's warranty your your warranty. Wow awesome thank you so that. So there's victory number. Two d The mic cable destroyed by the beast of bob. is under warranty and will be replaced. gratis just as soon as they can get it in stock at guitar center is sorry senator like everybody else is having Problems with supplies and deliveries. I think this might be a good time for us to do our musical interlude for the week and This week's Musical interlude is going to come to us from A san francisco artist in exile Mr ted taylor who was a longtime San francisco musician and dj k. usf. Who is now living on an island in hawaii. Believe and ted was kind enough to provide us with this week's musical interlude. Which is a song that he wrote about a great san francisco character. The famous emperor norton Skill do kim Thank you ted. Thank you ted. And we're back and Here is the other big piece of news that happened this week. Our supervisor of district three Aaron peskine Announced that Well he put out a statement. And i believe this was on wednesday saying after serious consideration. I have decided to enter into alcohol treatment. Under the guidance of professionals i stand by my long legislative civic record but must also take full responsibility for the tenor that i have struck in my public relationships for that. I am truly sorry. I'm extremely grateful to my family colleagues staff and constituents for their understanding and support as i work through the difficult issues that i'm finally confronting. I take seriously my duties and responsibilities as a community member and public official and remain deeply committed to the issues legislative agenda that i have pursued on behalf of san francisco for two decades so we should probably give just a little disclaimer up front. Aaron is our supervisor. He's also a personal friend of yours bob for some years and You know both of us have voted for him It's as many people have said been an open secret for a that. You know he had this. I whether deserved reputation for Imbibing now and then Lice take drink but one should also note that aaron besides having a reputation for imbibing now and then has a reputation for having sharp elbows whether sober or imbibed. I don't know if that's the word and especially When advocating on issues Where he feels the His constituents an tax payers san francisco are taking. It are taking it being taken advantage of by the rich and powerful. Yeah and and you know on that note This whole thing happened in the context of a conflict that has been brewing for some months. between aaron and His fellow supervisor chi chan the they being sort of a unit together on one side of the conflict. And on the other side being Phil ginsburg the head of the san francisco recreation and parks department and the sf parks alliance. Which is a nonprofit. That is hand in glove with the Reckon parks department and does a bunch of fundraising and Provides a lot of money for San francisco parks a little background. San francisco parks alliance You know the the chair is liz farrell. Who is the wife of mark farrell Who was A supervisor from the marina district and briefly interim mayor and twenty eighteen An ex silicon valley guy ex investment banker. Sounds like a feral supervisor. Supervisor Who you know. He's he's part of the whole Marina pacific heights Conservative to moderate business interests you know close allies of you know people like our former mayor and governor gavin gavin newsom Yeah other people who are on the board of parks alliance Just for example. Brian baker. Vp of development. Who is a real estate developer with you know l. Thirty seven partners. Big realist developer in san francisco sky. Michael yarn secretary Also from the real estate development world you know now doing a silicon valley venture backed Startup that basically does software that Is automating the whole process of building multifamily housing so these guys are part of the whole. Mb marina pacific heights conservative. Wing of san francisco politics and You know that's the way they can raise so much money for For parks However this this city has been embroiled in a pay to play corruption scandal now for several years. The fbi has been investigating it. City attorney's office is investigating it It has ensnared you know People in the public works department Just a planning Permitting department Guy who got caught up in it. So there's a lot of awareness about this and something Did not smell right to connie chan in particular about the relationship between Rex park and this nonprofit and to came to a head around this project to Install the what's called the skies store which is a ferris wheel that got put into Golden gate park For one hundred fiftieth anniversary of golden gate park. It was going to be a big tourist attraction but and and you know as parks lions. Raise money for it. The contract went to this. This company sky star in saint louis and The project wound up. Losing some money for skies dr because the pandemic hit and the attendants on this This ride went way down. So there was then A big push to extend the contract beyond just this one year for one hundred fiftieth anniversary and turned it into a four year contract or contract. That would run through two thousand twenty five. And that i think is what got chan and And erin peskine looking at it and in february Visor chan issued a statement. She said instead of going directly to our city's general fund the revenue generated from skies. Star is going to a nonprofit that is still under. Fbi investigation and public corruption investigations. She's she's referring to as parks alliance which some some of its contracts have been scrutinized under this investigation this investigation that's going on looking at city corruption And supervisor chan. Is she a supervisor for district one. Which is where golden gate. Park is located and So she says it raises the question of whether this is a good government practice in whether such practices contribute to the pay to play culture among city agencies. That is why. I am calling for an investigation focusing on this agreement and as if parks alliance practices. Okay so Apparently and and it was not only japan but also erin peskine who voiced similar concerns over this agreement between reckon park and San san francisco parks alliance And this this arrangement that allows the profits that are generated from the ferris wheel to be directed to the parks alliance and Apparently this Really stuck in the craw of the The ceo of sf parks alliance Guy by the name of drew. Becker and i guess What what just really irritated him as that. Esa parks alliances in the middle of raising money for richmond. Playground a playground. That is in Supervisor chan's district and so he sent a letter to supervisor chan on march eighteenth and Here's here's one of the things that he had to say in that letter of more immediate important and concern however is that we are currently fundraising for the richmond playground. We have always enjoyed and more importantly relied upon the partnership of the district. Supervisor as we invest in playgrounds and space in our city without that leadership and support our efforts would be far more challenging. Check check this out. Please confirm in writing whether or not you would like us to continue supporting the richmond playground. If we do not hear from you we will assume that we no longer have your support and we will suspend our work until your concerns have been fully addressed. Oh well she's sober. When he threw that elbow or had he had something to drink. He and his cups early in the day he he might. He might ahead of the tenor of that really. Sounds very peskine esque except peskine isn't corrupt. It sure sounds to me. Like pay or yeah. That sounds to me like you play along. Or you're not gonna get your money for your parking in richmond. There was a great deal of controversy over. The installation of this ferris will begin with some people. Think you go to golden gate park or park like that to get away from the tourism to get away from the entertainment parks or places where within a city you can go and find some fresh air some grass. Some trees some birds where you know. You're you're not in the same thing with the tower. They built their. You want buildings. Look downtown. Plenty of big buildings. You wanna look over golden gate park. Go up in a big building and look over golden gate park so we have the tower at the museum that was put in. We have this ferris wheel which had a lot of neighborhood pushback. They didn't want to traffic problems they didn't want. They want the tourists problems. Well and the problem that that supervisor chan raises is just simply that you know. This is a contract. That's over a million dollars and you know this. This is a a tourist attraction. We shouldn't shouldn't we be spending our our reckon park money on things that benefit the residents of san francisco. Things simple things for golden gate park like public bathrooms. You know simple things for golden gate park. Like i don't know Improving the landscaping or the the mowing the lawn. Whatever it is you know. Picking up the trash Things that that that that impact the people who live in the city and use the park Oh and by the way people who have to drive to the park from neighborhoods. That aren't right next to the park So that was kind of a point that she was making and It just really bothered the the. Sf parks alliance that she would so dare as to Raise questions about their integrity. So what i really want to get to here is. Let's let's listen in to the actual board supervisors meeting that where this all went down on tuesday of last week. And let's we're going to hear from from supervisor channel a little bit but we're also going to hear Supervisor peskine and you be the judge of whether this sounds like he's slurring his words drunk here we go this line of questioning around contract and it's legitimate. It talks about you know whether he does trigger charter section. I'm a woman eight whether it will come to. The fore should eat or contract likely off objective you over. Al is with a four year extension but why is it not And it talks about the line of questioning identify that you know the flooding. The actual to parse alliance has lack of transparency and accountability. How did actually on is being spent. So i'm happy. Show that with you. But ultimately than eight talks about really. This is really a how we spent money in our court system in government especially ahead of a the conversation is how war we spending our money for. And what are we spending on. And you this case with sti- star contract and with the golden gate park one hundred fiftieth anniversary colleagues. I don't know if there is any other way to put this in a more literal way to supply that really. You have to pay to play in the park and what's happening here so i i wanted to question Pose a question to manage routines. Because i think that consistently even his apology letter he has mentioned you know that he has nothing to do with this letter. That issue by mr trump. Becker but i. This is not a question for you. Labyrinthine in owner. you know. Remind your own that you. Are you know testifying before members of the board This is a public hearing So i Forward you telling us the truth and it's very simple. Yes or no question. So and so phil ginsburg. The the head of reckon parks is at the meeting with the with the sf board of supervisors and supervisor chan is setting up the line of questioning. You know because she knows how slippery this guy is and she knows that you know. He's going to try and talk around the problem and she's she wants to just get yes or no answers from him. So let's your birth. I would love to know if you actually know of at the ladder which said by juku backer or eleven. Her was set to me supervisor. The letter the art lines view was there and ended. Ati they are. They have an independent or they made their own decisions as we are concerned. Now so that's that's aaron jumping in and saying you did not answer the question. Answer the question pushing him. Say not letting them off the hook. You did not answer the question and then connie chan the jumps in with the same comment letter. Vance that was sent to me. I knew that they were very upset about the allegations questions. Please please let super chan. That's a supervisor. Walton was president of the board of supervisors there. telling supervisor peskine to Pipe down supervisor. Peskine again telling mr ginsburg answer the question you know with what sounds to me like righteous indignation. So listen more other. They sent the letter until they senate's supervisor. I'm not sure is that is. That is obviously very guys. Not true is not true that you have told me so. And as well as the mayor chief of staff sean. Osborn has mentioned. You knew about the letter before. It was sense to me. But i think that Colleagues got you some context of what i'm about to go next and i think that this is the again how we're spending all public dollars. And who's in charge of how the public dollars is being spent in our city and Again jeremiah marriage actually knew about it from what i learned from shirt osbour- that you knew about the letter asking for sense. But you seem contradicting has statement. Now which is which now leads to trust. You have time so again. That's aaron simply. Says he's line which is true and then walton. You know telling him to be quiet chuckles and tells me it doesn't sound like walton's to upset about all this and it doesn't sound like us any reason to tell aaron that he's out of place or anything else he just tells pipe down. You'll get your chance. Yeah so let's listen. He and he giggles about because we you know. It's all like a wink. Wink nod nod. You know we know that you know. There's there's there's business going on here. That is not kosher. Filkins is line the word means. Thank you and thank you supervisor haskins. I think that's the next part of it. Is i think that the question is. How do we spend public dollars in. And when we talk about found tropic support again. Where do we go do they go to the most in need of a residents of san francisco and kind of goes back to this so now a professor chan is going to talk about a piece of business before the board on this day meeting which is A bond measure that they're voting on that will provide funding for among other things Some significant park projects And you'll hear her point that Originally this bond Was going to go toward funding a lot of things that y- questionable much of benefit. They have for the residents of the city and Some of the neediest areas of the city and Through work that that she connie chan and and supervisor peskine did They added requirements to this bond. That there'd be financing for Reckon park projects in Places like portsmith square in chinatown. Which is come notoriously rundown things that would benefit The the susan's when this which including parks on finding an park sponsored projects. When was i originally ca. Pulse was a was not Portsmouth square renovation included in the original proposal of his which again colleagues i remind you is one of the densest a dentist pop most populated neighborhood in san francisco which lacked the most one of the some of the most We space and in grainy of portsmouth square renovation michigan spur Tell me was it. Actually included into original proposal. Portsmouth where as always boo Identified as heidi's art project and contemplated to the renovated with twenty twenty per on funds and ever gains are intent intruded. Originally zillah was it was. It was actually included. Originally i'm trying to answer is no ill. There's because we know that a history has told us it was thanks to supervisor. Pasqua fewer and at chinatown community advocates. That that portsmouth square renovation was included in this also does correct through let you know matter berg. Answer please well. He's not answering any questions. I understand your basic to posits. I really not going to be basis. That also i mean the planning process took place over several years and we were told that there were different amounts of money in different possibility There's also seem to be considered portsmouth where his always in At the top of our list of a very ideas art project should be rented and it's it's now included in in what we're talking. Karate is is actually polluted in the pot of funds for recovery are jets which portsmouth Is the number one part bs hooda. Yeah so so. And i think with this what we're about approved today. Also included ten million dollars for golden gate park. is that correct There is a pot of money for golden gate park improvement. And what have what are the projects that have been you know. Initially identified does far for this purchase. Money there are a variety of ideas. It's a pot of money. Projects have yet to be specifically delineated But to renovate He's villian for which there is funding in the eastern on from a eighteen. believe We will probably have a short haul to be able to renovate it up to safety. Standards of that project requires Darussalam lakes that need to be renovated We hope to do some planning work for the golden gate park senior center Just yet to be fully identified with them. And you as one of sounds like though you. That's the first set of project you identify. Could you tell me what kind of youth any free play meeting. Anybody can just vitally for calling. You don't know he's opera. Billion is a basketball. Indoor basketball court journey is if you can tell me if there any type of free play recreation that votes in just walk in for basketball playing versus just percentage or even just on top of your head versus permitted events in emission require events in that location. He's already is used as a special event. Then you can always used for both supervisor. Girls sports jamboree that he plays. They're numerous Summer camps that take place he's billion Lots of free school last week programs sensitive unified school district uses that civility quite a bit for various events. We have three admission evening Ask all the during the summer of our program which has been around for fifty or sixty years is free admission and you get to see emerging high school and college. You're in and occasionally some professional basketball players. It's was the home of a community hub over the last month so there is a lot of programming that happens in the site through the process as a important seismic safety asset in in our earlier. Chief into that. I mean unless you can tell me right now. What is the percentage of three places like Permitted permanent advanced that location. I don't think i can tell you that. Off the top of my head. But i can tell you that between all of this elastic events that take place there and all of our youth programming That uses ours. It's home particularly during the summer. There is plenty of free activity. That takes he's our as it does router art what she's getting at here. Is this this project to renovate keyser Smells like a plan to turn keys are into a place that will will benefit business interests that wanna have permited events there whether it's permited sporting events or entertainment or whatever it might be as opposed to again using it as a place that that that benefits the community By offering free programming. Free play for kids residents that kind of thing and He is pulling out of his ass anything that he can think of. That's ever happened at keyser. That sounds like it. Was you know good for the children. And being very evasive about whether this is basically a plan to turn this into a A giveaway to business interests that will do permited events there. He can't even say that a majority of goes to free events free classes free. No he can't say any of that and It's hard to believe that he doesn't have the answers to these. And let me tell you the economy. I am possibly walk in racist city government system and that a racist parksix them and let them talk. That day was four pointing. When i stood there in going eight hard hippie hill seeing how diverse awesome and like his people do daydream gang. Smoking weed chilling and wholly peaceful in. Hang out and yet was fencing and there was coughs there were police and there were park rangers and i look up in. I was insurance at in in the chevrolet. Arthur thing and i looked down. I see people just showing and was ray sites. And i was like this looks familiar to me. I have seen this before. Except i see way more if i may colleagues a lot. More white middle class people Somewhere else but he didn't have the kind of controlling police and fencing or random. Doing exactly got vegan. After the lord's park so what she's talking about here is She's shown this article. That has a picture of dolores park which you know is filled with unb's and yuppies in white young millennial tech workers You know partying Having a great old talking weed smoking weed and having a bucknell and then avenue whatever they're in do and No cops no security nothing like that versus On four twenty which is a celebration of the freedom to to use wheat. And it's it's become a tradition in golden gate park and You know it draws people from all over the bay area a lot of people from Oakland berkeley come over and It's definitely a more diverse crowd that you'll see at Four twenty Racially diverse economically diverse and She's pointing out the heavy cop presence. That was there and you know the The chain link fences and barriers that were put up and You know that's the kind of park Equity issues that we have in the city not the same and if we have a moment of just switching that and thinking about having black and brown people the same exactly. It's an worst part. How would our city. How park system react. That's the question. I walk away with that day in thinking about very deep about what i do for living. And that's all the comments today and colleagues. I cannot thank you offering dolgin me. It's amazing to me. Thank you thank you super chance that prison logging in sorry for interrupting the. Let's mr ginsburg. Now there's a lot of respect but smirk off your face that would help. That remark drew a lot of criticism. Afterward daddy he told ginsberg the riott wiped the smirk off his face But you know. I gotta tell you. I can understand errands frustration Looking at this guy smirking face on zoom meeting While you know he just evades and lies and they have a long history ginsburg and peskine. E- eh they they Have not liked each other for a long time a long time but i do think that there was a lull in this. I think that there was a i think. I think that their relationship did mellow for a while there. That was my impression but it's my own park and rec issues. As you know here Both at washington square and joe dimaggio playground. Which are yeah ginsberg's brief Yeah and i think whatever Past resentments there were between peskine and and back in. Ginsburg were reignited by this issue of the. Because i've been. I've issues there so i certainly saw erin some help and his advice. As the who to approach these annoys issues mainly and And i i got the sense that they were on an even keel there at that at recently maybe Well listen in to you. Know comments and i one question i have is just you know. Try and honestly assist. Does he sound drunk having to use break. If you could just answer the question. Honestly and directly impose which is. Did you see the letter that mr becker sent ms chan that should have been sent to me prior to having been sit so yes or no question and the answer is supervisor that i was certainly familiar with their that. They were upset and their sentiment. Their board and their staff made the decision to send up. All right let me ask you this. So the answer. I think you just sit gets that. Would that be against mr ginsburg. General manager against rules that were i know that they were very upset. And concerned about the allegations that were raised against them in and the impact that had on their ability to raise that money. Survey that that hazards this phil azariah fund. Which is at you knew that they were going to send a letter to. I was the person who started the fight and they sent it to my colleague who was actually not even the versus started the that you're aware that they were go. Send a letter. It is that what you said ginsburg. I am aware that they were upset. That in the discussion about the the ferris wheel their organizational integrity was called into question. I am a. I am aware that if it was your moving ernie on turning a one year deal in a five year deal. So that's your fault. That's not their fault. That's your fault. Would you disagree and if so or if not please expound on that that's i listen i mean i think are a lot of different perspectives. Acknowledged that there you know that there are there have been some breakdowns between us. I am sorry for the communication breakdowns. We normally wouldn't blue while it was. It was very cleared that supervisor chan for one in have enough information and we did not do a good enough job of bringing her Adequate information about the wheel so She's redick knowledge down. But i think that's different supervisor. If you don't mind. And i know that there are different perspectives. That's different than in a policy disagreement of out the wheel to allege that san franciscans. The lines is made up of a word of thirty people. One hundred ten french fringe groups who volunteer in our arts. Who who work in our arts to advocate for arts and abroad russia's of of allegations that don't have any factual basis against them and they were upset by that than i am. I was aware of that. Yes what what allegation. What specific allegations were made. There was just simply the the comments the the chin and prescott made was just simply this this needs to be investigated and know it was that there's something about this. That is risky and unusual. And there's a riskier that There could be not enough controls in place to prevent corruption from happening. Let's create there were no there. Were no specific allegations that were made and yet these thin skinned entitled hill dwellers felt that they were so insulted by this that they needed to threaten to pull funding from this. This parks project in in chance district. The part and the parks project of course wouldn't be project that anybody could rent for their kids or anything else. i mean. this isn't like you know there. There's no advantage to any of these thirty five people. We can assume that these thirty five people All our of means of some sort. I mean i mean do. They have any common neighborhood. People on this board of thirty five people they the same people that are on the board of the opera and the symphony and you know and and these other things. Yeah i mean. It's we have to hear more. But i don't hear erin slurring. His words i here's somebody that's really angry because his colleague is being his colleagues constituents are being extorted to back off or your or your kids won't get a playground. Yeah i mean. Aren't you supposed to be righteously indignant about that. Yeah well and i think that he feels. I think that peskine feels some personal responsibility this too because apparently he was the one who was first to raise a lot of these questions and kind chan is someone who i think. He's kind of mentor. She's a new supervisor and I think he may be feels that she got caught. In the crossfire. it sh- it should have been directed at him. Let let's mention. Also the the the you know chinatowns in district. Three chinatown is the largest chinese community outside of china in the world. One of the most densely populated places in the united states and Has very little. Which is why the food giveaways in my street because there is no place in chinatown. Probably we could give away food to two thousand people. That's why is a worthy thing and you do put up with a lot from it though you don't need to have your car towed over and they don't need to be able to park their own private vehicles on the street and just this portsmouth portsmouth square is is in. China is in chinatown in is in need of some rehabilitation. I've taken my grandchildren there to play. I doubt that fills children or grandchildren as he has any. Yeah it's you know there's a lot of corners of that are dumped a lot of homeless people around the edges of it. There are a lot of really poor chinese. They're playing cribbage or whatever what checker in go go. No no they played go there dominant. What's it game. Come on marshall nauseam mahjong tiles clicking away. They're all day you know. It's one of the oldest spots in the city. portsmouth square. Yeah that's where. The vigilantes got together and decided to run all the chinese album town. Yeah so That's why connie's bringing that up also because you know it's it's all tied together here you know who's going to get this money those most in need or those in need and i love the pot of money thing i keep seeing a rainbow a little elf s at the end of it pots of money. Where do i get. My pot of money really is kind of pots of money. I mean look this clown ginsburg. He worked for gavin newsom his Decamp uses chief of staff chief of staff you know what's his background in gardening. I wanna know there's a big parks. I wonder what he does to garden. And i want to know what his background is in managing a park and why he deserves to have this position you do. He was obedient puppy. Who say 'cause he's he's right there you know still puppy along Of years later must be a nice job. Yeah let's listen to him wriggle a little bit more letter before it came out and i think that's the third time aaron has tried to ask him that question directly in the third time that has been followed by. He refuses not going to ask whether he saw the he knew about a letter is what he's trying to say. He refuses to acknowledge whether you actually saw. He refused copy uses to acknowledge about whether he knew that this letter was being made in the reason. Why is because this read. This letter is radioactive because it is a document in which The head of a of a nonprofit makes basically a pay to play Property so radioactive. That errands gotta go into rehab. That's how radioactives. I am aware that they were upset by it and that we're going to send a letter to the supervisor guests this against. I'm not smart enough. Not the same thing. I i don't i wouldn't. You're gonna. you're about to say something. So i didn't want to cut you off. Are you done phil what. Who's on their board thirty or thirty five people. I don't know all their names. And how many of them are are. How many more city employees. I know one that he employees which was that john rowers was a lot more that i i actually we work closely with them but they also as you know work with other city agencies and aren't independent organization. I don't go to their or meetings except that were presenting something special. I don't know everybody who's on there. I know there are representatives from labor on their or our arts savvy is their environmental advocates. You can see the problem that aaron is getting at when you have city employees on the board of a nonprofit that is raising money for the raising money and awarding contracts for concession stand with city money yeah for concession in You know standard concession on park land from from every probably from every on their or and or apprently they're serving hundred and ten different friends of groups in parts all processed sort of that sort we could maybe ask questions related to those two. I don. I have nothing relatives item. I support The reason that raise the issues last week is wanting to hear from this. Ginsburg is that. I believe that miss ginsberg is actually his department deeply involved in inextricably linked to this nonprofit. I see that time when we're going through a self-examination around for upturn through nonprofits And the behavior that has been exhibited by this particular Then it's remarkably arrogant. Then this gives her has full knowledge of is conduct on become hideous remarkable. I met with a supervisor. Milk this morning on a social visit. Am i said to her. That had this happen to any member of the elected individuals in this camp. The mayor might ten colleagues treasurer. The assessor I will be taking the same position. The behavior exhibited by drew becker and his bowl. Those two one supervisor that was misdirected entered a incorrect. This visor is outrageous. The fact that his were and martin fueled resin for life of and park commission. Sent us a letter saying that they were sorry about the rupture between our board. And they're nonprofit is not the answer. The answer is take sauce. Ability and responsibility means and said this four mosaic began is time for drew becker to go back to philadelphia or chicago would have this kind of conduct in our society is conduct of become it needs to end and you need to take responsibility and with that i'm having voted for the measure that i stuck up for because actually the reality is the money was not in the wrong at the beginning and the community stood up for it and is representative the community. Activator got into the bomb and now are fighting a few details over You know arts funding in this and that but Drew becker these san francisco. Nobody threatened selected official. Unless they've done something wrong and connie did nothing wrong. And i did nothing wrong. And it's totally shit are undone so You know not sure he. He uses one expletive in there but He uses it to cap off. You know what i think is a an honest and frank explanation of his his outrage at This behavior and you know and also just the frustration that he must feel that this guy is going to get away with it and to divert from this very next day or the same day. We get these allegations of drinking. So what happens then. Is that the products. The chronicle runs a newspaper story. Obediently because they the the reporters at the chronicle And the one who was the lead reporter on that story. A realtor named that name Heather knight Is engaged in the practice of access journalism. Which is how little newspapers like. The chronicle function in town like san francisco. Which is that. You are caught up in a game of competing for access to the people at the top in particular the mayor and the people who who financed the mare the people who are in the mayor's orbit and so you have a city hall reporter and columnist who In order to get access to the mayor and Those powerful people will do their bidding and and right things that they like and so they will keep coming back and giving access so we got an a a newspaper story about this meeting and about you know all of the Rumors and allegations about Errands drinking over the years and And from the chronicle did we get a real good story about the allegations of corruption. Now no did. The did this serve the purposes of diverting all attention from what actually took place at that meeting and i'd say it was a very successful diversion. Oh yeah and none of this stuff Other than people complaining about aaron forever calling them in the middle of the night. I got a text american in the middle of the night. I'd like to read it to you. Know i got one on monday. I think it was monday or sunday trying to reach him for you now. I can't pay phil. But you know. I do have a problem. I'd like to talk to you about knight. Don't have the neighborhood association behind me. In fact they're part of the problem but Actually not part of this problem part of the problem with the farmers market. But they're not probably you don't give them permission to do it but I have a text from goes to monday night. Been trying to reach aaron. And i kind of figured. It must be a way and i called. Let's see if i can find this message here here. It is here. It is and so he'd been away on vacation. I've always found there to be unbelievably unbelievably on top of responding to any of his constituents. Not just me so here it is. i also have a five g. This was really more about the five g antenna. Oh my roof this huge tower. That must succeed any limits that are here and my concern that i am my two grandchildren. The beast might get baked by the five g radiation. So you know so trying to figure out what's going on how to get it tested and i tested. I text them like. I don't know on a saturday and i wrote it was too early. I text him too early. Text eight in the morning. Oh my god. I must have been drunk. Sorry too early. Takes understand your way. Saturday on the sixth please. My concerns are time sensitive. Get back to me thanks monday. Twelve three am just got home. Tomorrow's crazy packed. What's up I mean who supervisor calls you twelve and morning. he didn't call curse at me or anything. That might have been more entertaining lake. Why did you call me at eight in the morning. You dirty this that and the other thing. No he called to see. What's the problem going to be here tomorrow. Crazy and get back. I didn't see until two or three. In the morning. I didn't get back And then next day. I sent him the stuff. I'm trying so that's the type of supervisor we have over here some response to our concerns Yeah yeah no. He knows it would be hard for people to say that he doesn't put the constituents in the community. I and the the the drinking and all of that. I mean that may be. There may be truth to that and he may have a problem with drinking. He has come out and publicly. Said that you know. Apparently he has enough of a concern about that. He wants to do something about it. And you know that's fine. Bring it out right now especially where there's not any. There's no recorded allegations of this people's complained about it but it's not like there are records anywhere t that that someone's complaint Is behavior is not no. That's that's for sure but to blow this all up the day after this hearing would seem to indicate that there's a lot being hidden there. There's a lot of powerful people that don't want this going forward. And there are a lot of people who Have a tremendous amount of pride and ego that they feel has been Threatened or at the the the their thin skin has been pierced by simply raising the question that it might be worth investigating the relationship between this one city department and this nonprofit and the same chronicle and the same reporter not locate any formal complaints made against the supervisor. Either to the clerk of the board of supervisors or to the department of human resources now. This is just a personality thing. People don't like Peskins personality because he he speaks the truth and he e Names names and he is afraid and And he's not part of the cool kids club of from has their sticky little fingers in the pot. Did the pot right. Those people so look All i can say is it worked for gavin newsom to uh to say you know I'm i. I have a drinking problem and i need to go to treatment. You know when he got caught out for cheating on his wife with his best friend has his campaign advisor. And i think the guy who's job ginsburg got right. Yeah so You know it was a great guy by the way he He was good guy it it worked for newsom to say you know. I i have a drinking problem and you know because then you you get to. You know sort of deflect all of the responsibility off of you and onto this problem that no no one can Can really criticize because it's You know it's a disease alcoholism and so You know in some ways. Maybe this will allow aaron to have a second life the way the Newsom did you know. come back. and Oh i don't think he's going to run for governor. I don't think he is either. But i don't think he wants to live in sacramento. I don't blame care but or washington. Dc or anything else. I mean his heart truly isn't san francisco and his political aspirations for the most part of a been to. You know make this better city. And he feels that he's the guy to do it and he certainly has done more than most to make this city Continue to be somewhat liberal mean and Yeah i mean he's probably coming to the end of his his political career. But you'll have you'll have a career take off for years. Doubt he's gonna wanna come back. I think even before this blew up. He's he's exhausted from sectarian terms. I mean he he might change his mind. And i don't think he wanted to come back after the first two. You know it depends on who they put in office. These the who these. They run aren't my friend. Danny what's his name starter. Solder santer Danny yeah so that that's who they're going to try put in and I would imagine if you managed to get. Maybe arnold be back who knows We'll see. But i i think that's it. I don't think he could you know they're. They're trying to prevent him from ever running for mayor their big fear that someone of errands thinking will ever get. Hold the executive branch of this City or any state or the nation. I mean yeah. It's yeah they they understand that. The executive has a lot more power than supervisor. So this is all put us you know to to smear and slander aaron as much as possible and take our eyes off the potty golden. Who's got their hands in it Any probably you know. I wouldn't doubt that he is sincere about wanting to curb is alcohol and his anger. I mean sounds like anger issues and alcohol. Issues just brings the anger to the surface and we don't always express ourselves as eloquently or is In always check our tongue. Once we've lubricated starts to wagon ways We all regret at times but that doesn't mean that he's not at all times able to serve Into to perform his duties is called him a falling down drunk or anything else. Nobody's accused of sexual harassment or anything even remotely like that. They've just said you know he gets in your face. When he's got a problem that he thinks it is affecting that you know that something's a it gets in your face when he thinks that you're taking advantage of the public trust Old phrase public trust. He feels phil has betrayed the trump public. Trust your into to the boss of the bay. San francisco's legendary. The bob schillt's what's going on pickle ball. Oh my god. Yeah so the newest outrage i've had to endure Six forty five. Am on the tennis courts. Pickle ball yeah. I don't know if you've ever heard a pickle ball game but it sounds very much like you know someone hammering a rifle report or something like that. It's very hard racket. You hit a hard ball with it and it makes a lotta noise. Apparently it's you know a covid has brought out pickle ball players. We had one or two show up spoke with them. They were nice enough. They understood immediately. Yeah this is loud and this you know. Nobody wants this around them especially early in the day. So i'm hoping to get phil's help getting rid of pickle ball on the tennis court over here You kill joy. I know i know what about just having it done at certain times. I don't think it's most anytime tennis court. it's really loud It's really loud. it's repetitive. It's what they call. Impact noise There's no getting rid of it. It goes on for a half hour. Forty five minutes It's especially inappropriate at six forty five in the morning when it's quiet out there Joe dimaggio playground is sunk in playground dense surrounded by densely occupied residential twelve weeks on four sides one sides on columbus and blocked by library. So you probably can't hear much over there. But on three sides it's nothing but people living so any amplified sound anything like pickle ball Is horrible so if you're working if you're thinking i mean you know your choices. Close your windows put in earplugs. Turn up your music. You're going to have to live with this Are you allowed to use a tennis court to play pickle ball or i mean i thought tennis courts tennis courts were many places. You're not allowed to do anything on the tasks corporate play tennis because they don't want you to damage the surface right I don't know that's true. There's no sign it's there without signing. Then you know there's nothing you can do about it. Here's a question i have for you. This might be a solution to think about. Is it possible to make a reservation on that. Tennis court is a possible to reserve a time. I don't believe so you have to go there and queue up. I don't think that tennis court works that way. Some other tennis courts. Do i know in the city. Because i know that like there are soccer courts soccer fields where you know there was. There was a famous case. A few years ago of the tech brose from dropbox who reserved a Soccer field out in the mission where local kids would come and play all the time and the they monopolize that This whole issue of you know. Being able to reserve public spaces is always controversial. But if it's possible to reserve A tennis court Wouldn't be possible for you to reserve the tennis court at the times that these pickle ball players coming and it would. I mean this is to to piccolo players that there's not that many people out there at six forty five Had they've been reasonable. I mean either way I would but you know it wouldn't be kosher either. You have to show up. You know. I'm not going to show up and play tennis at six forty five morning and there's other people out there there's three quarter so they could reserve another one just as readily i. You know. I like where you're going with this. But not my way of dealing with the my way of dealing with it is to appeal to ginsberg and park and rec Because it's just not. I mean i i'm not getting a sleep i got either. I have children. And i'm getting up with and that extra half hour or an hour means something right. Don't have the kids. And i can catch up on some sleep. so And the rest of the time it penetrates all through my apartment. Not just my bedroom. This is right under my bedroom window and i don't know ginsburg the rest of them really understand how much noise live in the cities. Really like if you don't have a home that you know of your own you can put glass in double paned glass and live in a quiet neighborhood but if you actually really live in the in the urban core on main streets i mean your sign up for a lot of noise to begin with. This is unnecessary noise. yeah this you know there's a lot there's a lot of that going on around here and people are seizing. The comments whether it's a streets sidewalks You know using playgrounds for private Classes i mean. There's lots going on here so i guess that's enough for this week. We'll to pickle ball next week because onto exhausted from listening to fill ginsburg weasel around things. So until then i bid you at do you. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this week's episode please. Rate review and subscribe to the bob show on itunes. Google podcasts spotify. Or wherever you get podcasts. Follow us on facebook twitter and instagram. At the bob social contact us by visiting our website. The bob show dot com where you can send an email or call the bob phone at four one five three four three five nine two four. Now here's another song by ted taylor. This is palo alto rain inclusions so it was bell wow list.

golden gate park san francisco Mta chan connie chan bob sf parks alliance erin peskine parks alliance Jimmy andrew filkins bob mobile aaron mta dolly dali mr ginsburg richmond Carlos watkins
16 Minutes on the News This Week: Neuralink & Brain Interfaces, TikTok, FaceApp, iHeartRadio

a16z

20:10 min | 2 years ago

16 Minutes on the News This Week: Neuralink & Brain Interfaces, TikTok, FaceApp, iHeartRadio

"Hi everyone welcome to the a six Z podcast. I'm Zonal Zonal Choksi our editor in chief and I'm excited to share a new show from us today sixteen minutes a short news podcast where we cover recent headlines of the week the six Z way why are they in the news what type what's Israel from our vantage point and what our experts quick takes on the trends. Today's episode is little over sixteen minutes covering tick Tock with General Partner for Consumer Connie Chan face APP with operating partner for security and former C._F._o.. At box Joel de la Garza iheartradio's direct listing with operating operating partner Jamie mcgurk but we begin with six Z Bio General Partner D._J.. Pandey on the recent headlines around one of the Companies Co founded by Elon Musk norling and go over that news for the first half of this episode you must this week announced. Advances N._B._C. is our brain computer interfaces neural interfaces and it's a man people have been talking about forever and while they did acknowledge it's a long road and he even hinted and this is where it gets a little crazy but Saifi cool. He even hinted at the option of merging with A._I.. In the future what's interesting fishing is they announced a sewing machine which is basically a robot that goes in delicate flexible electrodes called neural lace which by the way is not a marketing term that you elon musk invented. It's actually a term from the Culture Scifi series from me and banks which was written from the late eighties to two thousand the processors an application specific integrated circuit and basically it monitors brain activity because it and ideally in the future way future claim is that you could even potentially translate machines to not just read but actually even right to the brain but the paper they release which you can download. It's called an integrated brain. Machine interface platform with thousands of channels was not peer reviewed. It's a white paper so I think we want to figure out V._J.. Like what type what's real here especially given the trend of brain computer interfaces like where are we really in this journey. Well you know if you think about like what this technology can do. There's different styles like so one style is to be noninvasive. That sounds appealing because you don't have to literally go into your brain but the reality is there's just very little information can get out if you're not invasive. Now of the invasive categories is one. Maybe maybe slightly less invasive technique. We're actually go through your federal artery. which is the artery on your leg near Femur as well known path to go from there all the way into your brain and the insert through the femoral artery something that would go into your brain so this is invasive but you're not drilling holes in your ahead but I don't know how reliable you can depend on where it's going to stay there? When earliest doing is literally drilling multi millimeter holes and then sewing wires directly into your brain flexible flexible electrodes and so this this has the greatest chance for bandwith and getting real information out and in it's almost like a direct connection? I think you know all of us have sort of Ood ouch kind of reaction to that so they make analogy delay sick which if we were let's say fifty years years ago and I told you that hey look I'm going to have these lasers and they're gonNA fix my eyes and by cutting them and reshaping the eyeball on the Lens. I'm GonNa do it on the mall. I think everyone think that's insane. That's interesting analogies Lazic. When it was new it sounded very invasive and now it's a cookie cutter? No I mean that's still. I don't know if everyone loves the idea of sick but it's pretty standard you know and so it sounds like there's a huge adoption issue or concern but really I think the question is what can you do okay. So where are we in the technology now for what it can do. And where do you given your vantage. As point in the Bio World Think B. is our brain computer. Interfaces are interesting. It's interesting thing about where you can start because start with a population that really probably is in dire need people that are paraplegic quadriplegic. Their lives are obviously very limited compared to what they were at birth in terms of movement in terms of movement and really just in terms of access to the rest of the world because their brains are just like ours but they can't move their limbs and it's just really tragic and natural place to start would be and I think we're starting is just in communication and it's not just typing what's really being able to use a computer and think about like what that means. That's the difference between being in the modern world and being isolated from the modern world that would be a huge game change and is it only if your paraplegics and quadriplegics or are there other sort of neurological movement disorders they could play time I think would you shift from cases where it's sort of an easy so hard to avoid punds like no brainer easy no brainer <hes> kind of thing to wear okay. Maybe it's less obvious but become more accepted. Maybe who knows twenty thirty years from now we could get to the point but let's talk about the timing. The company's been around for two years five years is roughly the F._D._a.. Process for them to get to human trials with five patients or so they claim they said the road is long so given the evolution of is I mean as the topic that's been around forever. Where do you see not prediction? But where are we in. The evolution of this entire. Journey is clearly very early in this journey what's interesting those that were actually talking about even if it's just a trial putting this impatience uh-huh rats and monkeys and he claimed onstage surprised his president who's like what are we talking about this now so typical must be in humans. That's a pretty major trump. Is it because I was going to say. Don't people argue that our D._N._A.. Very similar to that but I'm just thinking from a cultural point of view now from technologies things that actually humans probably easier than mice because mice brains were really little so actually ironically. I think that would be easier but the reality is now. You're talking about people and you don't WanNa mess around with people okay so swimming. Naming social acceptance is a separate issue altogether technologically and this is the heart of what you love when science becomes engineering yes. Where is the engineering reality of this worthy engineering comes in his at? I think much like we see Moore's law and other things on the computer side once you can make this interface then the advances on the computer side get to translate over so for instance machine learning is a very very natural way to take the signal's out of our brain and then use that to interpret what you mean in what's going on and so as machine learning it gets better and better and that's sitting on Moore's law and other areas of compute come along for the ride. The other one is I suspect the sewing we'll get better and better and that you'll have more and more electrodes in there and be able to pinpoint other areas and so year after year after year if it only gets. Let's say twenty percent better every year. You know that's dramatic change over ten years so bottom line it for me though because getting that the social thing can happen getting that engineering it can be empowered by Moore's law still not sure where it feels a little nutty that there's literally electrodes shows floating around in our juicy Goo brain and that's pretty much like a mess if you think about it like reality people have artificial hearts and that's a good point people who have Parkinson's often have devices that actually in their skulls that are put there to serve mediate. That so there's actually a lot of precedent for this. I think in all those cases the alternatives were pretty dire. I mean right now. They don't have transmitters right now. They actually got from the rats. I think they'd take it out by a U._S._B.. Stick so in this case you've probably for a while I assuming wire tethered but again for this population is better than they have him and they have limited mobility unfortunately right they already have wheelchairs and devices that they're tethered to already any final thoughts you you know I think this is like a great example of something we talked about in the firm is sometimes really the great ideas ideas and what makes them great is that they're just so inherently controversial and it's so inherently paradigm shifting and I don't know what could be more controversial paradigm shifting than drilling holes in your head to access the internet or something like that now also batteries look like that idea so time will tell and their many other players and that's partially makes us particularly exciting is that there's going to be I think in time ecosystem of alternatives by the way at Darpa tweeted. They're the ones who pioneered the sewing machine technology with U._C._S._F.. Funded it as part of their things so so what musk is doing is actually using that technology but a funnier part is is paper so I came out of academia. I'm an editor. I care a lot about bylines. I think it's crazy that the author said Elon Musk and neural link. He didn't list as authors like. Do you think that's okay. YOU RUN A lab job. Yeah I mean I think especially if you want to reach the academic audience I saw that the way to do it. I don't know if an average person cares about the individual authors in there but if I were in the company I I'm sure I would love to sort of have my contributions exactly well maybe when they do at peer reviewed paper. This is how I justify it to myself. They might then do that paper with the actual authors whereas this was like a marketing white paper you could also choose to interpret it in a more positive way which is that he wants to really acknowledge the whole company it could be the other interpretation. There's generous Jenner's interpretations of this. I like your glass glass half full view of the World Jay thanks for joining referring so the next item on our list took has actually been in the headlines Plenty of times. What's the third most installed APP worldwide since q one of this year behind what's happened? Facebook messengers has one point two billion M may use monthly active users or something and last jogging so given that phenomenon is happening and it's been happening for a while the news this week was about them having a huge influence at bitcoin which bills itself as the world's largest celebration of digital video and online creators basically a huge ask conference funds for video. It's sponsored by Youtube but ironically was not dominated by YouTube. It was actually dominated by Tick Tock Stars according to Taylor Lorenza writer at the Atlantic this up to the first time that tick tock had such a huge presence at Bitcon but on top of it the other recent recent news is that there's talk of banning it in India which is its biggest overseas market. The question here Connie for you is what is going on with Tik Tok tell us really quickly what is talk frankly ability to do short fifteen second videos as a very familiar model bovine. Try Bat many people have tried that it's a series of short video apps but the difference between that and say like a youtube is rather than search for anything. There's no search bar. The APP completely dictates what you see by using A._I.. Algorithms it's purely A._i.. <unk> driven. There's no preference selection except by what you choose to watch yeah I mean if there's a talker that you really love you can follow them but when you initially start that whole entire feet is dictated by the platform so it chooses things that are high quality or high. Impact at surfaces that and that's why it was such a big deal if it con because you had all these people who had trouble becoming famous on Youtube because you it's been around for so long right now it was so much easier to become an influence or ten years ago than it is today but on tick talk it's different because you create one really hit piece it can through a I be shown to a ton of people worldwide because it will trigger the algorithm to share it with a lot of people and that's how you can gain followers really quickly whereas on Youtube Muss your search store unless a front shares. It's much harder to get surface. The article talked about how someone who tried to become famous on youtube a struggle for a really long time getting followers but on tick tock was able to amass a following far greater and much shorter period of time so this particular segment is focused on our friend Taylor's piece in the Atlantic on this she has open ended question at the end though which I think is worth answering which is hardly going to make money the answer to me is really obvious because tick tock is the English version of Chinese <UNK> OP same company right now. Just I bite down English version all by bite downs and the China's one is called showing and it has a bunch more features monetization methods that you just don't see in the English version yet and if you just imagined that stuff translating in America which they think perfectly can can it yeah yeah I mean a lot of it is around ecommerce a lot of it as around becoming a super APP actually even allowing people to find restaurants or even book hotels. You have leader boards of top brands literally commercials. You can instantly instantly by right in the U._S.. We've talked about one. Is the interactive TV World Ever GonNa Happen. I don't think it's going to happen on the T.. It's going to happen on the mobile and short videos a great way to do it because short videos are in essence commercials you WanNa Watch they can become such an idea. It's fascinating to me because in China you have a lot of these tech talk or doing short videos and you can purchase directly there with like three taps right after the video loops twice a little thing pops up you can click in you can buy it and it gets it's delivered to us. I'm talking like buying physical things. Fruit is a huge category what I'm not kidding like fruit random gadgets like for the fruit the grower WHO's growing oranges. He's showing you his orange farm or he's squeezing using the orange juice so you see how it is and you can just buy a box of orange dots a thing oh my gosh that's the fruit is way better than the ten X.. Engineer me and my God say Will Connie. Thank you for joining the segment all right so we're doing the next segment on face up which is an APP that is in the headlines this week first of all what it does basically more th- your face so if you're women you can change your gender into a man vice versa. It can show you how you age like how you look when you're old and of course people are freaking sharing this because how interesting to share right now I personally I'm too vain to share something like that so I would not even share that. The reason it's news is not because it's going viral because that's not news. The news is that there are claims of Russia collecting facial recognition data based on this and it's so concerning that <unk> a U._S.. Senator wrote a letter to the F._B._i.. And F._T._C. asking for investigation into its potential national security threat and it's risk to the privacy of Americans given the fears of election hacking the privacy policy basically says you're allowed to have a perpetual irrevocable non exclusive. Lose a royalty free worldwide fully paid transferable sub-licensed access to your photo but that's kind of all apps already do so what I really WanNa talk to you about Joel especially as a security expert. I WANNA get your take on. Should people be worried that people who downloaded this or is this is just APP business as usual well. I'm a strong believer in the fact that you should never waste a crisis right and so any opportunity we have to get privacy front of mind and people is really important because consumers just don't really appreciate or understand privacy that said I think that you actually really the risk is a really funny thing and it varies from person to person and so does the average teenager need to care about this probably not if you are a democratic or Republican politician that is in the public space. It's probably a bad idea that you give your access to. You're photos to anybody right. Why I don't understand the distinction there to be on there may be photos in there as a high profile individual that makes you susceptible to things like blackmail when you're a public official when you're working in the national security space when they say something as a threat to national security security they don't always mean that like they're going to get the launch codes and take our weapons? They often mean that you're going to get some kind of information that you can use as leverage over a public official and if you look at most of the national security investigations that happen in this country they're usually over for someone trying to get negative information or over some form of kind of information leakage right that helps explain the national security side. I'm very patriotic and of course I'm worried about people hacking elections or other things it did strike me as kind of xenophobic actually into just blandly accused an entire country of anything that comes out of Russia and China and all these other countries as dangerous that just feels like a little bit of fear mongering. I think the important thing that we should be talking about rather than saying that Russia China and these countries are evil. That's just kind of a ridiculous position to take Jake Right. I think the real discussion we should be having that every country conceives of privacy in a different way. Let's the U._S.. is well in the U._S.. Generally we're in this weird place where convenience or features or user experience right we'll always trump privacy insecurity so if I can provide you with the widget that gives you fifteen minutes of joy there some amount of private data that you'll let me extract from you and so I think you know the fundamental problem here is that U._S.. Consumers generally undervalue their private data whereas I would say German or European or people that have very strong data protection cultures have a much higher price on their right but these APPs are global. I was GONNA say these because it's like global APPS. These these APPs are global and and so is their infrastructure like in the Akeso faceoff specifically the servers are in the U._S. or so they claim in their response to the concerns they also claim that you know images are deleted within forty eight hours from the upload date so <hes> I guess my question for you is as a user in a practical way. How should someone who's not a politician with a high profile how someone really think about whether they should trust these APPs or not? I mean there's the no brainer kind of answer to that question. which is that if you have stuff you don't want other people to see don't give them access to APPS that? Let them get access to that information right and so and so generally I think be conscious and cognizant of the fact that these after taking information they may be taking information that you're not fully aware of you know the way that these companies present their terms of service is really designed so that they get people to kind of buy in and accept that transfer quite frankly. Yeah I don't know anybody who really being read them. I just I've never read a policy I must I must shamefully admit that I am one of those people that does I'm also going to be home alone on Friday but the fact of the matter is that this language in this legal ease is just done dictum consumers and exercise some level of practical caution understand that like access to your private information is actually really important and as we move into this new world and you look at these new apps these essentially becoming massive data collection efforts and just wait until we had near Lincoln B._C._i.'s into this whole equation well. Thank you for joining Joel so let's do the last segment of the news on direct listings are next as the expert is Jamie mcgurk who runs our corporate development function and is a former investment banker we recently put out a post all about direct listings which explains what they are how they work and especially given this new trend of companies like spotify and slack having done them so the news here though is Iheart radio which this shocked me because first of all <music> I'm into podcasting and their audio company and they've been around for a while and they just announced a direct listening and that shocked the head. I mean so like that's the news like what's going on no news actually we shouldn't bother recording this episode so I guess what people don't realize is. This product has been around for a long time. There were two primary use cases previously for doing a jerk listening one was companies emerged from bankruptcy and the other was companies being spun off of larger companies and so- iheartradio falls into the former category emerging from bankruptcy. I see so the directing product has been more or less repurpose by spotify in slack in recent history as an alternative to the I._P._O.. They don't suffer the dilution of a traditional I._P._O.. And there's no lock-up period so you know traditionally additionally have one hundred eighty day lock-up period traditional I._P._O.. And that goes away so there's strong momentum for a new way of going public basically the point of directly seeing is that the companies raising capital you're not raising capital and they're not doing so at an artificially low valuation that exacerbates exacerbates the dilution that they would otherwise get from fundraising right but doesn't a big picture why this matters. Why do you think it's going to be such a big trend in terms of the importance of it in our blog post? We talked about several different features of the direct listing and why we think that it'll be more popular you know I think the the short soundbite is that there's a lot of things broken about the legacy I._P._O.. Process who really benefits is it in the company's best interest to raise capital or go public in this way a lot of those are structural things that are due to lack of technology and transparent information a. and just time and policies doing things the way that things have always been done so it's more of an inertia argument as maybe why the legacy I._B._M.. has persisted as long as it has it it works at reason Kaplan at works as entering the public markets it just so happens and there is a better way. That's the trend that we see that's what you and I wrote about to bring it back to Iheartradio then why this is different specifying slack versus iheartradio's of the world so I think iheartradio got a lot of attention because it fell in close time proximity to slack it also has a business business model that is very similar to spotify. I think they drafted off the P._R.. To listing but the emerging from bankruptcy use cases a well worn path it just so happens that they had similarities to two of the recent more you know the newer use case <hes> Drexel. Thank you Jamie for that and just to be clear to everyone listening. Please note that the content here is for informational purposes. Only you should not be taken as legal business tax or investment advice or be used to evaluate any investment or security including the ones that we mentioned is not directed at any investors or potential.

Joel de la Garza iheartradio Youtube Elon Musk Jamie mcgurk Connie Chan China spotify Moore General Partner operating partner Taylor Lorenza Atlantic Zonal Zonal Choksi femoral artery Darpa Pandey Companies Co editor in chief
A16Z's Connie Chan On Outgrowing Advertising As A Business Model

Techmeme Ride Home

23:38 min | 2 years ago

A16Z's Connie Chan On Outgrowing Advertising As A Business Model

"The. Welcome to another weekend. Bonus episode of the tech marife home, I'm Brian McCullough. So I hope you've read the piece I mentioned in the long reads on Friday called outgrowing advertising, by Anderson Horwitz's, general partner, Connie Chan link in the show notes, of course. Well, today, we're gonna talk to Connie about that piece again, I think this points away forward for the one trick pony ISM that I've been moaned on this podcast many times a model for new startups now that the low hanging fruit of let's just get two billion users and throw some adds up is kind of sort of done. My thanks to cutting Chan for taking the time to have this. Great conversation. So forgive me for sort of long preamble upfront here, but it's always kind of jarring to be reminded how much even the biggest internet based consumer tech companies are essentially one trick ponies like in your piece that you have the stats. Facebook Twitter snap there between eighty four and ninety nine percent of the revenue is ad based. Right. You know, you can even add Google into that mix, but we're generally talking about entertainment apps today, then the other popular model is subscriptions. But that's still a one trick pony. Like Netflix one hundred percent of its revenue subscriptions Spotify plays both sides of the fence of bit. I bet who is even a little more balanced between the two, but the chart in this piece that gobsmacked me and made me wanna talk to you is the one that shows that tencent's revenue distribution. Its biggest tencent's biggest source of revenue is gaming thirty six percent, then subscriptions at twenty three percent than payments. I know I'm going on and on. Other. The smallest piece of the pie is advertising, but that's a ballots pie. And so in this piece, you're suggesting a that that sort of a balanced pie is how consumer internet business works today in China, and then sort of implicitly be that this is a possible way of the future everywhere, or at least, maybe this is a model that if you're someone entering the space. You might wanna start thinking about as opposed to just the old playbook of get a billion users threw up some ads or get five hundred five fifty million subscribers like that's not a diversified enough. Business plan for the future. I think is what the point of this pieces. So that it's not diversified. I'd say, you know, it's hard to go up against a face of Kor Google for someone ad budget. Because their machines are so robust though. There's also that point which I hadn't even thought. All right preamble is over. So let's let's start with why is the Chinese market? Different. Why didn't Chinese companies just throw up ads as their first default strategy? To be fair. Some of them did use a lot of advertising to start with but many of them have experimented Welby on. And I think the crux of it is China is much more mobile first than I'd argue almost mobile only and a lot of the advertising typical display ads or even search click ads. They just don't work as well on mobile in terms of how the user feels right? When it takes the entire screen. It's very different than a display ad taking up say a quarter of your screen. And so I think the Chinese companies have become a lot more thoughtful on all these other experiments on how to monetize. That's definitely one. The second piece is quite honestly, they have a whole different payment ecosystem that allows for these micro transactions which I really taking off. Well, and you make the point in the peace because I think we're going to have to talk about this idea of like what consumers are accustomed to like you make the point that others have made in other. Markets that Chinese consumers, skipped the PC and the credit card, and so it's almost like this is the internet that they know that that that payments and all of this universe of other things. It's a different internet than what we were a culture to in in North America. Yes. And I would argue that a lot of companies in China will be very experimental monetize vision. And they'll try it if it works, and if not they'll take it down. But because they're willing to go out there and explore and try new revenue model versus taking that same kind of one trick pony pushing harder on it. It just basically allows for more experimentation. Right. So it's like a necessity being the mother of invention essentially like and then one more thing to lay the groundwork. Like, you point out that like this might also that sort of experimentation like not having a default thing like just throw up ads as as a fallback model. It probably leads to a better product for the consumer as well. Go ahead. Yes, for sure I think in many cases, it leads to a better user experience. Because one rather than pay for us. It's grip Shen imagine just going to a restaurant and having to buy a buffet. I regional time rather than being able to order off menu Alicarte, and I think that's the difference between a lot of the products and China versus a lot of the scripture models as you pointed out in the states, you know, and also if you think about their experience not just of having that choice of what to pay for around content. But I also have other examples I can talk to around how payments can actually facilitate better interaction with craters and also be used as a mechanism for self expression. If I have to think about like, what new monetization model. Look like rather than just point at the tactics. I would say it's it's really actually exploring more ideas on self expression, giving people better ways to access exclusive content and three finding them the right interaction. Mechanisms with content, creators. Well, let's go ahead and go into some of those examples, so if you if you have the top of mine like some of the the more creative and interesting ways to do that. Let's start there. Sure. Sure. Okay. So I mean, especially as as a very simple example, a lot of the apps in China, you can pay to skin the app with your favorite artists favorite celebrity or favorite theme. And that means all the buttons, look different. It's like you're downloading same onto your app or you can pay money and change the avatar or there's even options where you might imagine using YouTube or Twitter, but you pay money. So that all your comments show up in red, bold font. So they stand out. What we're used to in gaming almost like have skins and avatars and things like that. But you see it apply to all kinds of networks. This whole idea of being able to express and make my profile standout whether it's through an image or having my content looks differently that that's very common awful lot of these things. I think a good model to look at this. And this is the one that you started within the piece is books, and I want to poke at the idea that it's not just the straight transactional model. So there could be a third model, you know, Amazon is eighty percent transactions. Right. But even when there are transactions and be using the books as a lens like there's all sorts of more creative sort of teasers and different ways to make that transaction happen in China. Yes. I think that the the book had vamp will when we started selling digital books online in the west kind of took the same model, which you buy the entire book at one, and we just left it on the internet. But in Asia, it's almost as if the product was built for the internet, and therefore you can read portions and preview the book well before you have to pay for the rest of it. You can't do that in real life. And if it's book, right or you can charge by the chapter or by spouse and characters and it just allows different ways without crater to get their content out there and also to monetize built for the internet as opposed to taking a model that used to work in the offline world and just putting the distribution piece online. I think what we've done in many cases. Whether it's news music movies books is we've taken out of the offline models, and we made the distribution piece online. But we haven't pushed ourselves. To be more creative on the monetization, the ways that we start. We're even on the product level. Because what you're describing is again, this is a product that is designed for mobile, I yeah. As a Evie, obviously as a podcast her. I had heard this stat before the in China, podcasting is really a much more massive business than it is in in the in the west or at least in the United States. But I didn't realize that it's essentially a lot of it is sort of like that massive open online courses model. So a lot of it. Knowledge base learning not just entertainment of crap but mostly subscription based with with ads mixed into a lesser degree. Not necessarily subscription you're able to buy packages of content. So maybe you might have theories on how to buy your house or how to improve your voice, and you're able to buy a package and say five ten fifteen podcasts at one and it allows the crater to have more incentive to create really advanced deep dives into various pieces as opposed to having a focus on general math appeal content, which is typically what you have to do when your advertising. Right now able to cater to smaller niche audiences that are very willing to pay for that content. And that's also sort of a loved the all the details. I knew nothing about this about the music, like tencent music and how it's model differs from Spotify. And it is all about like almost game of -cation and offering ways to prove you're a bigger fan than other fans. But then also it's a lot of I think you said what is it as seventy percent of tencent music's revenue comes from live streaming services. Describe describe to me how that model is different than the Spotify model. Yeah. So that goes back to that third kind of bucket. I would say of monetization, which is interaction and hitting interaction with craters. So what those are for tencent music. There's various ways that you can hit creators one. If they if you use their karaoke gaps. And you're a singer and someone listens to you. And they love your voice, they can send you these digital stickers, which you then regime for cash, and then tencent music take a portion of that or say, you love listening to music, and you love about some lyrics, or you just have a great voice for radio, you can actually create your own online radio show and people who listen to your show and listen to the music that you curate in your commentary on it also send you tips, and you about online radio broadcaster can cash out a portion about for real money. So what it does is it gives us incentive for everyday people to become content creators to also encourage viewers or listeners to pay and the platform takes a portion of that. But this whole idea interaction, tips and stickers. I mean, we're starting to see that in the US. And that's what excites me, right? You see that already happening on twitch? We it was announced just a few weeks ago. That Himalayas the podcast going to start incorporating more chipping as well. I think other big companies such as you to the now even read it they're experimenting with the idea of tipping. I wonder it's almost it. It has that's one of the key things that's been holding back. This sort of adoption of this sort of thing is that we've heard this for years that that micro transactions have been a problem here in the west. And so maybe it's almost a technical technical barrier. Coming down that maybe we'll make this more viable. Mush though. I mean, I hear that many times because the the credit card to hide but in reality for a lot of Chinese platforms. You'll buy for say ten dollars or twenty dollars a bucket of tokens that you can then you to buy these stickers or by these gifts to send to people it's not necessarily an individual transaction. Every single time to me, it's not just the tech barrier. It's a function of the platforms needing to be bold enough to detect it and also it's a function of having consumers feel like they want to contribute and give to be craters believe that is the case when you look at the success of his third party platforms that allow craters monetize their foundation through monthly monthly payments. You can see that that desire to pay craters there. We just have to platform facilitate that and the more seamless way almost integrate as a part of your subscription to whatever. Platform the understanding that you can give a portion of that to the creators as part of your overall subscription. Maybe. Yeah. I mean, I think something like that definitely should be tried. I mean, if you look at you know, and I didn't get this in my in my block. But if you look at another company, you know way, which is often called the Twitter equivalent of China, you know, people say that paid content on their product will likely be ten percent of the revenue, and that's going to be mostly just users wanting to pay to get access to exclusive chat or live streams or QNA. You remember nineteen ninety nine. I do the dot com. Bubble read a whole book about it officially twenty years further on from nineteen ninety nine. So if you're no longer partying like it's nineteen ninety nine. Why does the software you use every day at work feel like it's not quite ready for y two k start this year off on the right foot and find suffer. That's the little more up to date on capterra dot com. Capterra is the leading free online resource to help you find the best software solution for your business with over seven hundred thousand reviews of products from real software users. Discover everything you need to make an informed decision. 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Blue light filtering lenses are also now available have an iphone ten make sure to download where be Parker's app where you can use their brand new virtual try on allowing you to try on glasses seeing the realistic color texture and size of each style. Using just your phone so head to Parker dot com slash listen to order, your free home. Try on today. All right. Forgive me. But I'm gonna I'm gonna push back just a little bit. All right. Facebook has been trying to diversify every everyone should probably get to this more balanced pie revenue model, right? Facebook's been trying to make payments happen for forever. Even subscriptions for things. Like Facebook groups. I think they've been rolling that out recently, you know, Snapchat is trying to do, you know, click from video to be able to buy the the piece of clothing or whatever as of now, none of that at least again in North America or the west has gotten very much traction. And I wonder almost again, it's like we talked about at the beginning. Is it sort of like this is what consumers have been used to? So that if the Chinese consumer was a blank slate coming to the internet for the first time, I'm not saying that consumer behavior can't change and extra -tations can't change. But I wonder if the problem. Is is that North American consumers have been? Led to expect a certain kind of experience, and maybe it's going to take some time to change that. I do agree with you that it will take time. But I also think it kind of work, and if you look at the success of twitch, you can already see that people value to being the people that they're watching. And I think what the platforms have to give greater tools for the creators to create exclusive premium content or reason for that person to pay the issue right now is a lot of folks who are creating premium content. You can find something close enough or similar that's ready free. That's out there. And so until there's a platform that really allows for that kind of packaging of maybe not just QNA, maybe it has to be Q and A plus excludes the chat plus live during plus maybe a PDF book or plus something else that will give users enough to say, yes, I'm willing to pay for this. Final two questions sort of around that to the to the extent that you're willing to speculate like, which are the big players may be best positioned to diversify in this way to the sort of balanced pie. Like at the top of my head. I'm thinking Amazon who's obviously moving into. But who would you say is best positioned of the big players to kind of achieve this. You took the words right out of my I actually do think Amazon is one of the best option to go into advertising. I mean, if you think about how advertising has worked to date, it's always been around targeting a person that looks like x y and z, but Amazon actually knows what you purchase. So imagine if you're coke, and you wanna purchase add against people who bought Pepsi, Amazon confessed militate that very easily. And so you read the news this week that WalMart's trying to get into advertising more, I think a lot of the transaction companies are well-situated diversify away from just straight transactions. And if you look at Amazon all things they've done video. I think they probably the furthest ahead. The other one that I would say has the has the content and the community to do it. I don't know if they're really going to go after this route. But I'd say Twitter actually had many options to to monetize if you think about. But how many influencers ready are using it to to manage their followers? Right. And this is again where for Twitter, I look a lot at their their China Queant and see the things that they charge for and it's not just the the exclusive chats and such. They also have the IP membership options where you can decorate your avatar, but get that you can pay for a VIP membership to follow people anonymously. And that's something that if you think about for Twitter Twitter doesn't allow that. Right. But would you pay a small amount each month? If you could follow people anonymously also decorate your avatar also at plans, oftentimes the IP membership for China. It's not just one thing. You get it's a package of things. And so when from have to figure out what's the right combination to make that package compelling. It's really interesting. I would never have even thought of Twitter in this context. But okay. So the final question would be aside from the big players. What if I'm an entrepreneur looking to go into this space, if you were some companies starting out here in the US to try to achieve that sort of balance pie. Do we think that there there are enough tools available to achieve that right now? Or is that still something that people would have to scramble together from like bits and bobs and the. Scotch tape and stuff. I think there are not tool to to get it started. I mean, say you are video platform, you can lead John all kinds of ecommerce, but also social all kinds of services. So for example, like if you're watching a video on how to fix the door, there should be a link right underneath where I can book a handyman to come to my house, and there should be a link right under that to by the part at Home Depot. Right. So there's a lot of ways that you can facilitate the by creating partnerships with third party. But I think the biggest takeaway for startups is don't focus on an ad based model because it's really really hard. If you're expecting that to be a hundred percent of your revenue, I would really encourage started to think about alternative. Yeah. It's almost like there. There are avenues closed at this point. So it's almost like we were saying at the beginning necessity being the mother of invention. You've got to go in this direction. If you're gonna have a hope of success in the new era. Right, right. I mean, you know, how many page and unique takes to generate dollars. And again, the biggest thing is you look at the mazing advertising engine that Facebook and Google have built and you have to realize it's not just having the traffic. You'll so have to have the engine that allows advertisers to target people very specifically. Right. And that's why I feel like if you are platform the thinking on traffic think about how you can use that distribution to monetize and try and make it natural possible. You know, another thing I study is took talk as an example, which is the big new kid on the block that's really taken consumer mobile by storm in two thousand eighteen and you look at the advertising that they have in their China version, which is called doting a lot of the ads, look like other tuxedos. You can't even tell it's an at at actually flow. Very naturally and native to not platform. And so when I think about the future of monetization or even what advertising can look like in the US. I think it's going to become more native to Pacific platforms as opposed to things that are jarring. And usually unrelated to the context of the content.

China Twitter Facebook Amazon United States Spotify tencent tencent music Google Connie Chan Netflix Capterra Kor Google Brian McCullough general partner Anderson Horwitz Asia China North America Welby
(Bonus) - The Future of Video With A16Z's Connie Chan

Techmeme Ride Home

38:00 min | 7 months ago

(Bonus) - The Future of Video With A16Z's Connie Chan

"Welcome to another weekend. Bonus episode of the tech. Name ride home. I'm brian mccullough. Did y'all do your homework. I'm just kidding. Of course but we are going to talk to the great. Connie chan once again about that package of essays from andriessen hurwitz. That i mentioned on the weekend long reads yesterday and we're going to talk about the future of video. Connie says it's going to be live social and shop abol oh and a reminder to maybe watch this on our youtube channel to up our numbers a bit please enjoy kami. I was just saying you basically seated my weekend long range segment for this week. The the whole run a whole. I guess the package that y'all put out is about social not being dead or at least not being completely you know Claimed at this point. Can we start with the premise of these essays while people think social was basically done that big platforms had locked. I'll let you guys are positing. The exact opposite almost yes. I think there wasn't phase in a time when a lot of investors felt. We already have instagram. We already have snapped. There isn't going to be a new social player and we are exactly like you're saying bryant am arguing the opposite because we actually still think. There's a lot of problems in jobs to done. Social that are not addressed today are also new formats around video around audio where we think there's still a lot more experimentation to be done anything about social. I think one very narrow definition of social is capturing the people you are not know the reality is social just means you're interacting with another human being and so there's a whole wide universe of formed yet to be built to help you meet. Other people may be that you don't know as well or your maybe just acquaintances with that. You'd actually have a fantastic relationship that you had great interaction so maybe is it fair to say. Maybe the social graph has been locked down in terms of we've mapped out all of our relationships. But what you're saying. Is this new type of social is going beyond that. And basically ways that that aren't actually lining up to a graph digitizing the rest of our human interaction right actually like the people. I call most frequently. Don't necessarily map to the same people iheart on instagram. Which don't necessarily mapped to the same. People are messaging online den and so we as human beings have multiple identities and different social graphs. And right now. I still believe. There's a lot of our grass and interactions. that are not yet digitized. So maybe it would help if we mentioned some for framing purposes like you're saying new types of social so like name some of these apps or services that are these new types that you're talking about. I mean well. For example in the audio faith clubhouses a new way. You can engage in meet with people that you haven't met in the past and maybe you don't even know but you get together because you have a shared interest in a topic and you learn about each other and you can become friends with each other in the in the video space. Tiktok i think has taken the country by storm and continues to grow because it is also introducing you to new content creators and new people. You want to follow it otherwise right. There's that eugene way idea of it's not about followers so much as it's this new you're able to surface new ideas and new people in different ways. Beyond just again. Mapping to a social graph. Yes because they idea that my friends know exactly what i want to buy what i want to eat what i wanna do next. I think is just a flog premise. When i when i buy things. I don't actually ask my closest friends for the recommendations because most of the time and buying completely different things i actually trust even though i know the reviews aren't one hundred percent accurate. I trust the amazon reviews more. So when i'm shopping for say a baby product than just asking one or two friends because you have the wisdom of the masses you have more people engaging in that conversation and that was the other interesting thing reading all of the essays like basically. You're positing that. Having social component can be plugged in for all sorts of uses. Now like a retention tool you. Can you can use it for education. Shopping fitness food entertainment. Everything so again. Maybe if we've always from the beginning of the web era been like well you can have commerce as a component of whatever your platform does. It's almost now. The inverse is that you can have social media component of whatever you're doing education commerce but the social at the end of the day just means you're interacting with someone and that whole idea social plus exactly what you're saying my partner. Darcy wrote a great piece on that. And i do believe that. Social can be embedded across the board especially on anything where you are watching content interacting with other viewers interacting with the creator. Or maybe you're doing something that's interactive to begin with such as education in you're interacting with the teacher and other students You know reading the the whole suite of essays. It made me think that yeah it. It not only is social not dead. But we're kind of seeing like a weird resurgence right now in everything because if you think like peleton has a social element that they're starting to build out like we hear so much about like in gaming fortnight and roadblocks among us even you're mentioning like clubhouse but house party also in messaging and things like that. Do you have any idea why now that i see that. It is almost a resurgence. Do you have any idea why. We're seeing this resurgence right now. Like what changes. Technically or culturally have happened. That have led to this resurgence. I think we were always going to get here. Get here to this moment and it just takes a little while to kept those realization. That social really does to wonderful things for companies one is. It's very fun and so you talk about like among us games. This makes doing whatever you're doing more fun. It makes it more game like it has leaderboards right like with palestine when you can see how your friends are interacting with polygon. The motivating factor for you to exercise. And that's really key so social can actually get someone to be more engaged in the long term and more likely to use the product that if it was a completely solo single player experience the natural fund creates competition. Increase the motivation. It just make something that's inherently not necessarily fun a lot more game like and so i believe that social naturally will help products have basically long retention and then the second piece that social really unlocks is very growth. Because right now we're hitting a point where people are more hesitant to download a new app. You have to have a very strong value proposition to get me to download a new application now. Then companies are realizing hey rather than just buying ads all over the place. Can i build in some vitality more social hooked so that users have an incentive to share it with their fans so that my users have an incentive to posted on instagram. well this is from one of the pieces. I can't remember who wrote this one in the past but there's also with with social generally the scale can be huge even if you get like a small slice of a like a niche or an interest things like that with just one percent share of active users. Tinder claims well over five million daily active users and brings in a billion dollars a year in revenue from that. So that's not the billion scale. That's only five million. But that can still generate a billion dollars in revenue. Just from that. Sliver well i think it's because social at the end of the day is interactive which means you're emotional you're not just interacting with algorithms you're interacting with actual humans on the other side and once you bring in the element of emotion. There's all kinds of things people are willing to pay for right. You're willing to pay to get noticed. You are willing to pay to to flatter someone. You're willing to pay to flirt. You're willing to pay to buy status. Whatever it is the willingness to interact with a platform at a much deeper scale increases. When you feel like you're actually building relationships of human beings on the underside well and that was another key takeaway for me is that you're distinguishing between like we think of engagement all of this time as well right. I opened instagram twenty thirty times a day. That's that's the. That's the addiction of certain types of apps. And things like that. But there's a difference between like that sort of engagement and like absorption like you can also with social have apps that you don't open them every day but when you do you engage with them for hours at a time like we've again. We're seeing this a lot in gaming but that is also there's more of a quality sort of thing that we're talking about here then just the quantity in the scale. Holly and i think part of it is some social companies like you alluded if they focus on just a niche. There's actually a higher chance that it will resonate with one of my identities that i will personally identify right. Maybe i feel like a trendsetter. Maybe i am a collector. Maybe i'm a diy crafter. Maybe i am a a deal hunter. Whatever it is you have these new communities social communities that really make me feel included and make me feel like that part of my identity can shy and i think that's also a reason. Why the incumbents quite honestly We'll have to figure out how to navigate this new world because humans. We have multiple identities and a lot of these existing social platforms. Don't make it easy for you to share all parts of yourself right like i have a youtube channel. Maybe i talk about tech. Hey i really love singing karaoke. i can't put that on the same channel right. Or maybe on twitter talk a lot about inspiration and innovation coming out of asia international but i have a whole bunch of thoughts around parenting or whatever else it is and i can't put that in the same twitter feed even right because a lot of these existing platforms in order for you to kind of really develop your following. You kinda have to choose one or two identities it to max and really just go deep on that. It's very hard to find a platform that allows you to develop all these parts of yourself. And i think that's actually the opportunity. This episode is supported by the team at vistaprint. Have you ever re gifted a gift. Did you feel good about doing that. Have you ever gotten a gift that you know was re gifted. I bet that definitely didn't feel good. 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Let's dive into your essay specifically because you're looking at video as a platform in this lens and at the at the risk of putting words in your mouth like i'd roughly summarize your thesis as like in this new video era of tiktok go through. The history of tv is just a lean back engagement than you came in and said well it can be a one minute video or twenty four hour video whenever now tiktok will it can be a fifteen like. Yeah yeah so now. Inter activity is baked in also with tiktok. It's not lean back so this opens up a whole world of possibilities for education shopping the whole lot so tell me about this like how does this open up new vistas in the gauge. Sort of tiktok video world. Yeah totally i. If i had to summarize the fm one sentence. I would say video historically was something exactly like you said we used to lean back and watch it and now video is going to be something that we do which means you are interacting with some way you are responding to whether to in the same way that when you're gaming you you like we kind of hate the cut scenes and gaming because we can't be involved in it like you're saying that video can be engaging all the time like gaming has been yes go ahead exactly exactly and and that engagement means that can disrupt every kind of normal human interaction that we had in the offline world. I'm saying video. It's going to develop new features so that alda's human interactions can work just as well if not better in an online world and you. You pointed out that. This was happening even before kobe. Hit because you know streaming had been rising going back even five years six years or whatever but it helped but like so again. You feel like that. This is a moment that we were building towards on. We're gonna hit eventually one hundred percent. I do think this amount. We are going to hit no matter what now of course. Everyone knows how to use them. I think a lot of people about webcams a lot of people tablets. Whatever it is the people yes now have more of the hardware equipment. They need to enter this new era. But i don't think ultimately changes that we were going to get here anyways because videos just another way for you to interact with another human and rather than just reading about something or listening about something you actually can see the person and so naturally videos more fun. It makes everything more fun right if i am even right now as a recording. This podcast if i did this just by audio and i couldn't see you on your cool purple shirt. Not he as fun right. But i see you and i see her background. Moving your microphone setup. An i feel like i'm talking to you in a completely different way than just a normal phone call and so video brings things alive and it makes things more fun and again going back to why socials powerful social is more fun and in the end say i do think everything has to be more fun. 'cause if i can choose between a fund education platform at not fun on. I'm definitely choosing the fun. One if i can choose between a fun finance app or a or a not fun finance. I'm choosing the phone. One and a lot of it is because fun gives us the motivation to do things that we didn't want to do anyways. You know it takes vitamins. It turns into candy. Well so let's get into some of the actual applications like use cases that you're seeing here and since you mentioned education. Let's start with that. Like specifically like what can we do with this new type of interactive video era in education. A such an education for video in particular have been studying for a few years because it's very big sector in china and very quickly grinding. A a lot of moms specially in the tier one cities are now using their tablets for math lessons for science lessons for art lessons for every single subject really for online coding. You name it. And what's been really powerful is in this new video world. You're not just talking to a a talking head on the other end of the video you're incorporating cartoons you're using puppets you are using arcade game in the actual class to kind of reinforce the curriculum you know in my essay i talk about how an attack this is really a a math. Meets mickey mouse moment. Imagine taking all the best folks who create video games and ask them to create first grade math curriculum. I guarantee you. it's gonna be more fun. It's gonna be more engaging it's going to have sound effects it's gonna have stickers that fly across the screen and all of those things make it more motivating for the student to complete the actual lesson well and like as an example like what i found compelling hitting a first grade curriculum. You're right up my alley right now Because i've got a first grader. That's struggling over zoom at the moment but like things like you know we've known for years that hey if in this modern era if you wanna learn to play guitar or something like that you can go to youtube and for free get these masterclasses but again. It's sort of this old paradigm of all right. I m lectured to. But i can't really i found it really fascinating you're describing the sort of interactivity where it's like learning to play guitar piano whatever it is not only is. The person live instructing teaching in front of you. But your interaction back and forth like you can see the actual like you're okay. You've got that cord. Let's move onto this cord. That sort of thing. Yes exactly so so it. Almost mimics does actually a hundred percent in the neck like a real live instructor right there in your room and oftentimes these courses are recorded so during the week before your next lesson you can go back and review things these platforms could also eventually incorporate a so that. When i'm playing something. Maybe i have a Even without my live instructor on how. I can improve my guitar planes. I might be posted clips of songs. That i'm working on and i might find a community of other people learning guitar and they can write comments on how i can improve or even. Just give me more validation. That i'm doing a good job There's a lot of things are possible on this online world. That are really hard to replicate in the offline and an ed tech in particular I think it super is you create this curriculum. Once you forever. First grade. Math curriculum doesn't change very much. Frank teaching someone. How does a plant grow that. That doesn't change very much. Enzo it's really empowering especially for people who don't have access to those world class instructors because those world class instructors almost in the same way they make a movie or tv show you invest in creating the content once and you can use it and apply it to millions of people and on the live instructor point you know the other thing that unlocks is actually the ability for more people to afford this kind of learning because now if i'm living in the bay area i don't just have to choose from the tutors. Who live in the bay area. I can choose from tutors. Worldwide who aren't mit tunsil. Who aren't in my country. And in fact learning language for example right to helps to actually speak with So there's a bunch of topics where i think the online learning platform not only can tax the kind of content you would normally get access to but actually make these courses cost one tenth the price of the person equivalent. Now that isn't to say that. Like in person tutoring or in-person piano teachers going away on you know honestly like when kobe passes or whatever i i hope. My daughter's piano teacher can come back to our house again. Because they are forming a great relationship with their in person he gives her a physical sticker and the physical sticker probably makes her happier than the digital segregated. Be quite honest. But i'm saying that the piano on zoom if done well can get really close to the human equivalent. I was gonna say that. Dan smith will teach guitar. Guy that puts up all those flyers around new york city. That doesn't have to put up the flyers anywhere. Just everyone can come to him so let. Let's move onto shopping. Because this is one where i have great skepticism. But tell me tell me what you can see this doing for shopping. Yeah when i first learned about video. Shopping was probably two three years ago. When it started taking off in china so around four or five years ago. China had a big wave of livestream irs just for more companionship. Entertainment and live streaming was a very big source of entertainment. Now you can go to these apps. Find a bunch of people to talk to watch them eat out with them. Whatever let's give him digital stickers and a couple of years ago he started seeing this evolve into commerce. You're talking to them. There's a button that pops on the screen you click and you can complete a purchase in five seconds right because they have the infrastructure of which payments alipay they have the infrastructure of tele shots and so it was really easy for a lot of these platforms to kind of bootstrap that e commerce A functionality in launch. that very quickly. What you started thing was in the same way that we grew up with infomercials and qvc people very quickly learned how to make engaging entertaining content to selling. And i totally understand the skepticism. Because i know like a lot of us. We don't watch qvc anymore. I mean i grew up watching a lot of infomercials. But i don't anymore and a lot of us would say home shopping network. Qvc those are for older generations. But you have to somehow marry that with the fact that younger generations stole a video. and not. just the millennials. It's everyone everyone's still loves video and inherently video is a better way to have more confidence in a product that you're thinking about buying you know if i am looking for a product. I will go. Read the reviews on amazon but i will also oftentimes. If it's a high price point product read about it not re watch it and listen to it on you to buying a camera. I'm going to youtube for my reviews. When i find a baby stroller i went to you to. I wanted to see. In comparison to other strollers. I could choose from which ones bigger. How hard is this to open and close. How have any like. I'm still going to for properties so we naturally have all been shopping with video already for many many years. It just was not so easy to check out on the same place. Another big difference that once we realized if you could check out on the place he had all the same logistics return policies in place. What does that actually mean for. 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You want when you want free for three months you could play mariah on repeat all day long all the way into two thousand twenty one. If that's your jam. Listen at home or wherever you are. Your holidays will be married with fun. Festive tunes remember for a limited time. New subscribers can get three months of amazon music. Unlimited for free go to amazon dot com slash ride home. That's amazon dot com slash. Ride home to get your first three months of amazon music. Free starts at seven dollars ninety nine cents per month. After that new subscribers only terms apply offer expires january eleventh. Twenty twenty one right. Because you actually. I'm actually in the midst of this. I've probably watched six hours of youtube videos. Because i'm in the market for a new bike and you made me go down like this sort of logic chain of. Yeah maybe thirty years from now. We'll think it's insane. Commercials didn't weren't instantly bible. You know what. I mean like you would go somewhere and watch all this stuff but then had to go somewhere else and then if you think about it like if you look at it through that lens like amazon and everybody else is still very much in a catalog paradigm where it's like. It's a list of items and like here's reviews and things like that. They've advanced it that way. But like the idea that your point of purchase should also be your point of education and your point of like learning the about the product and things like that it should be one place as opposed to these separate places. Yeah and catalog really is fantastic on. You're searching for something you know exactly what you wanna buy. You just want the lowest price point. Just want speed rank. There's a lot of us especially for these big ticket items. Were in the discovery mode. We don't know which e bike brand is great. I don't know which features really matter. I don't know what the battery charging. I don't know anything about to be honest. I want to know if i can fold it up. And how much is it going to you know. How hard is it to the battery out of there right. And that's what those videos are doing for me. Yes exactly exactly and so. Youtube is already a great place to discover a great products. And i'm just saying that video is a fantastic way to discover things. Have more confidence in. You're going to purchase and it also is a great place for the by you say how to folded up can demo the product right back to the infomercials that we watch ten years ago. It was all this like. This is how the george foreman grill works right. Look at what this nice can. Shop right exactly exactly demonstrations unboxing customers like forget about forget about infomercials. That's what a store used to be. Showroom was the place where you demo the product for the patheticness. Right go ahead. yeah. I remember the brixton stores and trying all their other gadgets in massages right i mean. That's what apple stores functioned as well. You know exactly exactly as i think about all that. I'm like okay for very long time. The industry was fixated on turning the television and figuring out how to make the television shop or like. How do you create the second screen experience for the television commercial. And i'm just saying we watching video content now on our computers on our phones and the television is like a monitor right to broadcast the thing that was on our computer anyways. And so you don't now need to solve things for this old television world. it's all interactive. it's all internet enable. Everything can become more shop lable and it's from a discovery standpoint also from a storytelling standpoint. So if i'm buying arts crafts. If i'm buying painting to watch the person painted in real time i have a much deeper appreciation for the product She's for my friend's daughter from her shop in store. And it's because i was watching her youtube videos of her crocheting and she's showing people how she crocheted countries. She puts out two videos a week and from that. I'm like okay if i ever need advice conscious. I'm gonna buy from alley. Because i now have a deeper affinity to her product. And so all craters with youtube following that have any kind of product. You can see how that same mentality means that they're gonna be able to move more merchandise with more product. It's the platform skilled in the right tools. And you had mentioned in china. The infrastructure is there and then of course that plugs into what we've been talking about with shop and things like that real quick one more. I don't keep you too long meeting new people again beyond just dating you even using examples of networking and mentoring and things like this. So tell me some about that because that plays into the whole idea again of this. This is social not just for people you know or not just for people who follow its for finding new people. Yeah i think inside. It's a shame that if you have specific interests it's really hard to find your tribe online to scratch. All of those is right and and again. It's all about how humans are really a multifaceted all have multiple identities. Yes i liked tag. I like studying innovation. I also collect old vintage peanuts. Comic books right like i have all these different interests that are not captured. My existing social circles. So how do i find those people. And historically i'd have to go to old form website. That's my muscles communities. Live still on these really old text based forms and saying there can be a new version of the communities and there should be new places where i can find those like minded people so we can talk about topics that were interested in when you think about someone moving into a new city. Sometimes i even ask howdy howdy need friends and sometimes people are not just wanting to meet people for dating. There's a lot of great products out there for dating and meeting new friends. But when you're looking at a for a non dating context of people who share similar interests. I still feel like that problem. Hasn't been solved today and you can go on twitter. You can go on reddit. That's not location based it's also hard to know who's actually on the other end to make a great first impression unless you already have a following engine better solution here let's end with one pushback and then one takeaway so the pushback would be. I'm old enough to remember a start up called needing the premise of which was let a thousand flowers bloom and and could they're not going to be just one social network there can be you know tons of social networks for every niche in the world and that kinda didn't work out 'cause face kind of was that for everything and we even here that still today when we talk about facebook even people that don't like to use facebook anymore are still stuck there because of their groups. You know they're quilting group or whatever so again that's sort of talking about what you're talking about so my pushback would be well. Who's to say that any of these platforms facebook twitter. Instagram can't just do this like. Is this an idea whose time has come or are we in danger of well. Of course facebook in some other platform will just absorb these ideas and do them. Let's say two things in response to that. Facebook groups is is still a very powerful product and a lot of people still use facebook groups. I i know buildings who all their tenants are using facebook groups to even just interact with their hoa but like facebook groups are still very very powerful but there are some use cases where they don't necessarily work One is on facebook everything real identity and there are cases where you want to engage in certain topics. And you don't want people to be able to click into your facebook profile and see how many mutual friends you have. There are topics even support group. Where you want to control how much information the other side has about you in there are also groups where you maybe want to charge money to be part of the curated group right you. Maybe want to have exclusive subgroups within that group. There are a lot of functionality features. may face the will build them but facebook groups hasn't built a huge set of features yet i think that scratches all of those inches and i think i i go back to that identity point which is why do think these third parties will always still have have a place. Because there's a lot of topics. Even i think about like parenting amami topics like you don't always want to use your full name and identity when you're asking random question about something you're not known for and it's because we inherently have multiple identities that i think leaves room for more than one social network right and i think that we we are now habituated to using different social networks in different use cases. And like this is what. I use for my quilting interests. This is one of us or my. I think you're right about that. The takeaway finally is something that you mentioned in one of the last. Say if i was a entrepreneur who who reads these essays and thanks mrs pointing me in the direction of where the puck is going. This is the future. What would your advice be should shouldn't entrepreneur attempt to steal away a chunk of these big platforms for themselves or should you rip apart the big platforms that go vertical yourself. Well i think to be honest. You're gonna hate this answer but them. Both of them can work like one of you have a feature functionality that existing incumbent just is not catering to and you do that feature better than anyone else i think that can spur a brand new network. Madd focus just on audio mayor focusing just on video or maybe you're just handling it in a way that allows for better search or better discovery at the same time there are whole communities that are willing to migrate off of these existing platforms the tricky thing on that So either the community has to be quite young or or you have to really convince them to migrate have all their historic chats other historic rat relationships that are already built onto a brand new platform at the latter. One is probably harder to be honest and than starting with a feature as a witch it would fit a thousand different startup so it doesn't matter it's not binary choice about can work. And that's what i'm say- that's what. I'm saying what i love about a sixteen z. Is that you love to show your work and you love to share what you're thinking about so i appreciate you coming on to do just that. It's nine pleasure. I hope everyone cheques. Social strikes back will link lincoln lincoln. The show nuts and thank you connie.

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a16z Podcast: A Podcast About Podcasting

a16z

1:07:24 hr | 2 years ago

a16z Podcast: A Podcast About Podcasting

"Hi, everyone. Welcome to the six z podcast. I'm Sonal all some super duper excited today even way more than usual because this episode is all about podcasting for newer listeners. We actually did an episode called a podcast about podcasts about four years ago. Would you can find on our website as since dot com? But today, we're focusing this podcast about podcasting since the podcasting ecosystem has evolved and changed quite a bit since then, by the way, I had hoped that Roman Mars who was on that episode would join us again. But he lost his voice, though, couldn't our special guest today is Nick Kwa who writes hot pod a newsletter that I've been following since very early on and has grown to be a go to source all about the podcasting industry with analysis insights and more he also publishes and contributes to culture on similar topics. Also, joining us for this episode is a six in general partner, Connie Chan who covers consumer the future of media and gen Z social as well as trends from China, and has observed the podcasting phenomenon there, and shares ideas on what more platforms can do here and the three of. Do a hallway style jam taking a longer pulse. Check on where we are right now in the podcasting industry. Speaking of since we do mention some companies, please note that the content here is for informational purposes, only should not be taken as legal business tax or investment advice or be used to evaluate any investment or security and is not directed at any investors or potential investors in any a six fund for more details, please also see eight six dot com slash disclosures. So we begin with the latest stats on the industry touching on structural factors. And more for about the first fifteen minutes. Then we do a bunch of lightning round style. Takes on how other content and entertainment models may or may not apply to podcasting for about the next thirty minutes. And finally, we go into monetization platforms analytics and more which we also touch on throughout the episode, including impacts on creators. And we end on recent news and moves in the space, such as by Gimblett had think about terrestrial radio and more. But we begin by defining a podcast, which seems. Obvious. But isn't and as a rather existential question, so guys what is a podcast. So I mean, the the religious thing thing here is in the midst of a really interesting moment of change, and our is internal conflict within the podcasts community about question. So historically, it's been largely tethered to the notion the RSS feed, it's it's basically an audio file or a a medium of distribution that largely happens through, you know, the technology that was carried over from blogging and now with the entrance of of Spotify and span Pandora's stepping up and Google beginning to do whatever they're going to do on inside apple already as an entrenched player as well. Yeah. Absolutely. I heard media and luminary just announced their sort of big hundred billion fundraise and affected are gonna launch in July a couple of days ago with a lot of exclusive content. Right. So so how does like exclusive podcast fit in with the old definition? You know, especially the luminary announcement. That was like strong pushback from parts of the community has been around for. For while. And generally folks who really believe in the open ecosystem. And so we have a situation in which like, you know, the technical definition is not the popular definition anymore. And if we go from the perspective of what the ordinary consumer things of a pipe passed that is it becomes a cultural question technical question. Which by the way, I want to say parallels. The history of the web because it's to me reminds me very much of early blogging absolute debates about what is a blog. What is an article? What is a website? And yeah, there was this almost religious existential debate between the early kind of in fact, some of the same people because Dave winer one of the people also dentists important to the development podcasting. Exactly, he he's I think he was technically the first person to do podcasts. Like in two thousand three years, I'm thinking break or one of the early people, and he's also specify the RSS feed, which drives the pipes and plumbing an ecosystem of podcasting. But today users don't even think of podcast that way. It's like if it's just recorded audio of people talking. Seven times. We'll just call that a podcast. Yeah. What am I very things on the people? Always call our videos podcasts. Maybe juror still does that there's a lot of people who still dual video audio and so-called podcast. I mean, the way I see it is that the tension has always been between people who see podcasting is the future of blogging and people who see the podcast future radio and resent attention any many times. And I think we're in we're in a place where that no longer matters. Because the ultimately the mass consumer will lead us where they wanna go. Yes. And like the web algae that I would draw is to the advent of the graphical user interface and how browsing computing, etc. There's always a phase, and every technology where there's a gooey phase where once you have an interface, that's user friendly and easy to navigate right? And what's interesting about this is that we're in the phase where the listening has become easy to navigate and more accessible more exempts various kinds of hardware to for example. In listening to podcasts on their drive to work because the cars are enabled with podcast, right? Like the smartphone. Connected cars or air pods. Making it so easy to listen to something else game. And in that sense podcasts are different than audiobooks, obviously, just for the sake of definition. But I would say like you can argue over time that even that definition may blur of audiobooks and podcasts, right? Like one day, a podcast might just be thought of as a self published. Audiobook, I have low believed that audience should be central to conversation as well. Especially a couple of years ago when audible Bill sort of ordinal programming team that took after podcast out programming. And in fact, the matter is these are all distribution platforms of the same kind of good is this that we think of them will be classed under differently than they also sort of our products of different economic systems, and you want to add to this mix though that I would not confuse music into this. And the reason is first of all from creator perspective every tool until now has been very music, creator Centric for podcast, editing, creation, etc. And so there's a really bad structural legacy effect of equating podcasting. I mean, we're essentially bootstrapping tools tailored for music for podcasting. So I the new wave. Podcast native tools is really important full disclosure. We're investors in descript and democratize is the editing of puck guessing because you can essentially edit audio like a word doc, but the main point here is that I do think music should be treated very differently than. To me like it's audio with spoken-word. Yep. Versus sunk. Yeah. So I guess we're we're agreeing on just to recap the definition of podcasting. It is audio it could potentially blur into including books if not in a content perspective than to Nick's point than even a distribution. And and and business model perspective, but we agree that music should be treated differently common denominator. Here is spoken word. Those actually the infant doll study. Which is the Sylvan L survey conducted by at his in research. They just announced their latest results earlier this afternoon. The most interesting thing is that there were increases in both audiobooks and podcasting. So podcasting had a significantly like large Lee this year. But audible audiobooks like after a couple of years of largely being flat. It's been increased again. And I think that's a really interesting question because I can't quite think of structural reason. Why would be the case other than episode of tethered effect? In addition to that, you have all kinds of really. Easy to set up wireless. Speakers out home yet. So make it more, easy, Alexa. Yeah. To consume this kind of content. It reminds me of like what people say about the kindle and romance novels. Wade Helberg sales increase because it made people more willing to buy and consume it because nobody will judge him. Oh, the judgment side. Interesting for me. It's actually ease of access because I used to be really barrister at this publicly. I used to subscribe to the Harlekin romance on demand service where you've got like the books a month and you'd pay like eleven dollars. I can't remember what it was. 'cause I I've always been a huge eater of romance novels as a very nice light Wai-ming to do. But what the analogy to what to me, I think it's more ease of access around better hardware on demand. Get it quickly. So speaking of the data, and you mentioned that the Edison research he came out today, and that sort of the definitive and longest running survey of digital media consumer behavior in America at least, but I hear a lot of mixed messages. I see like people this stat and that stat out of context. So why don't we just do a quick pulse? Check on. What are the key stats? And Nick, maybe you could recap for us what the key stats are big trends to know are here. So I think there's a couple of big takeaways here. One is when it comes this miliary of the notion of podcasting. And this doesn't mean people who heard the words actually know what it is is officially hit seventy percent of older Americans. And when it comes to the number of people have actually try it out Todd casting, you know, maybe they've Instagram of it. But he just tried to lease. It's gone over fifty percents about one hundred eight hundred forty four million Americans retention rates are sort of like really interesting like monthly passes thing is also went up. It's now thirty two percent of Americans up from twenty six from last year. It's a pretty big leap. I mean, just that's one third. That's a lot. And there's also really interesting slide in here attributing sudden increase to Spotify. There is a stat here that shows a most what if I listen between the ages of twelve to twenty four monthly podcasts as went up to fifty three percents. And so there's there's a lot going on. I think currently in such a moment of flux. It's a little unclear what the structural pillars are any more. I think there's one of those things where we're just gonna look back at as moment to figure out where return to high level recap on that summary of the stats, the high level is that this past year has seen unprecedented growth for a long time podcast has been steadily and slow. And now if he was like his taken some sort of leap, and so if you like this past year has been a moment where it's tipped into some form of mainstream. That's fantastic. So potentially a quote inflection point as people like to say in the business now usage of podcasts in the consumption of it has risen dramatically in the last year or two, but what always shocks me is that the revenue that generate? It's still such a small amount, given how many hours people are spending. I mean, this kind of content. So there is a study out there from the IB that caveat being it was funded and finance by a consolation of podcast companies that puts the number at around six hundred million plus plus this past. Last year and is projected to keep growing force months as Asian is issue. And it largely has to do with the fact that podcasting technology hasn't quite caught up to the resident Ninette kind of works in terms of dynamic solution. And it and it doesn't allow like heavy increases in inventory. Swap outs have been Tory in a way that that a lot of advertisers are now accustomed to getting from you know, marketplaces like Facebook. And even even that like from an advertiser standpoint, you're paying per download because you you aren't getting like these per listen metrics back so from the advertising standpoint, it's it's still really hard for them to measure, the ROI from sponsoring podcast. Yeah. And that's why historically we've seen a bunch of the activity won't advertising from dark response advertisers because they have a secondary metric of conversions on the promo codes and whatnot. And what will define us that the conversion rates are good. But when it comes to something like a brand new or or an advertiser that needs to, you know, lay impression on. Consumer over five ten year period, they need to know that they're hitting the people that they're hitting. There are a lot of women's right now to standardizing, even listen means, and this will become increasingly complicated as Spotify and Pandora everywhere. I mean, right now, you don't know if it's a is it a download is that a click is it open. I mean, who the fuck knows how long did you listen to write engagement I care. So that's actually what I care most about as a creator. Because when I was at wired chart beat changed me as an editor. And I need to know where people drop off that as a number one thing. So I don't even know this Nick, we were in the lunch that for when Spotify launched their first move into podcasting in two thousand fifteen they selected us as part one of their media outlets because our podcast was one of the very few that covered tech and thoughtful way. And the reason I was so excited about Spotify because bonafide didn't really have much of a podcast audience back then. Yeah, was they showed me it's really beautiful dashboard that showed you the potential in where people drop off. But you don't get that from all the other. No hot Coutts are distributed. It's still limited. Because not all of our listeners are listening on Spotify. Eighteen right during a bunch of different apps and tunes by also announced us, I think what last year James Boggs announced that you can actually have drop off the rolled up more granular it episode at Olympics. And I'd push back on those like, I don't actually think advertisements are the only way you can wanna tie as podcast wholeheartedly. I feel really really strongly that. Because even someone who consumes podcasts ads are extremely annoying to listen to and this is where I look at other business models that are working in Asia for podcasts that I think could very much translate here. So a couple of points. It's a situation which there are behaviors in internet usage in gaming in media consumption in China, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Singapore that doesn't occur here. Maybe to a path dependency reasons, maybe through sort of technical habituation reasons, the already seen a really healthy growth of the number of podcast using patriot. As. As maybe not a primary, but a strong supplementary business bottle of chocolate shophouses, in example, of this there bunch of podcast on patriots for this. And there's also like sleep plus being as of a central model to slate as a digital media publisher that also heavily indexes podcast thing. But I think I've always wanted this lack of data compensation interesting because whether or not advertisers feel confident in the measurement, and what the data is trying to reflect in terms of reality the ruled continuing to spend and like people do end up paying like converting as promo code. And so there is a strong sense. That podcasting is a very powerful driver of consumers. It's a powerful advertising drivers, even though we're not able to tell specifically how many people that get hit with in terms of the and so there's this fear. I think a lot along a lot of people that, you know, the analytic side end up driving way too much to compensation ends up dictating. The behavior of creators in publishers in a way that might end up being, you know, unhealthy or counter intuitive to the relationship to the list between a listener creator. How that I think is like, yes. Analytics may skew what kinds of content they put out and how they engage with their audience. But like really analytics is just a nicer way of saying revenue because at the end of the day or analytics are reflection of how many how many listeners you're getting. Right. And that's where I I don't agree actually completely agree with you from a business perspective. But as a creator, the analytics, tell me about community and one of my favorite talks on the early days of resurgence of podcasting was Marco are meant gave a talk. I was Exo Exo in two thousand thirteen and it was basically about the resurgence of podcasting the early signaling that and podcast a movement because what's really unique for the first time when you think about the first wave of podcasting with all the Indy bloggers, we now have brands podcasting. And sometimes they're not actually look. Thing for direct revenue through that. It's a way to really connect intimately with your audience. I mean, it's essentially a movement raw audio source. I mean, there are types of content where where it's not about monetization. But for a lot of craters. I do think revenue is one kind of proxy for how much value there providing their listeners, and I also think that we're in such such baby phases of how podcasters should be able to monetize like, honestly, they shouldn't be having to ask their listeners to go to other sites to pay them. Like, oh, yeah. They feed in-app. I mean, this is where the platform we're going to start rolling out. Subscriptions, I think some are gonna roll out like other ways of paying for packages or bundles of content, and I think that's when you're gonna see craters really unleash like much better content where they don't have to focus on mainstream audiences, but they might focus on smaller audiences that are willing to pay for that. So the concept if is being the sort of like proxy for over new here. It's strange because I've always viewed. As you know, a a certain kind of representations of reality. And it just happens that advertisers. At this point in time are really reliant on certain expectation of a kind of analytics in order to discern whether immediate product effective in a way that they wanted to be and there's this larger conversation about platforms in general, you know, switching metrics or tweaking metrics, or, you know, in some cases, ballooning them in order to control and manage that narrative relationship, do you appetizer? Now, I I completely agree analytics matters for an advertising mall. But all I'm saying is like the advertising model is actually not a good model to monetize podcasts. No, I that that we could agree with. But this is where it's like, it is it is the revenue that a lot of people a lot of publishers increases most comfortable with because that's all they know right now. It's actually also legacy. This is where I think we need to think again, very native in a new medium where we make. We do ourselves a huge disservice. Like the. Early days of the web when media outlets would put like a fricking, you know, better page analog on the website. Right. Exactly. Like, we need to think very natively in this medium, and we have a huge opportunity for the first time because we have such an intimacy a slipperiness a connection with podcasting. That's visceral. That's I personally I think it's unlike any other medium I've ever seen. I feel like I found my voice on this medium, quite honestly. But so I do think that we have an opportunity here because we're so stuck on the legacy of. And in fact, this goes back to something we started with which is what is the definition of a podcast. So I think the thing to revisit here is that the underlying pipes and infrastructure, and I know people don't expect this when we're talking about an episode about podcasts. But I think it's really important because it informs conversation. It is RSS feeds it is literally an ecosystem of pipes. That are connected by feeds. Talking to feeds talking feeds this is both a structural huge limitation causing major fragmentation in the industry, major limitations on what's possible with what creators can do demon. Connect the dots. Because the unit of analysis is limit to what you can actually send an feed and has certain trade offs to it. And this actually reminds me of containerships like physical large shipping ship like Merck etcetera that you see in the ocean, and one of the novel things about container ships is about what they did to creating trade across the world. And because they're multi-modal they go from airplane to ship to two truck two yard. They allowed so much collaboration and connection and around the world. That's what feeds are doing. For the podcast ecosystem. What's missing, however, is just like a container ship containers are rectangular boxes that are very limited. What you can actually fit into them and people therefore need to fit the shape of their goods to fit in those boxes and the entire ecosystem for physical container ships as architect at around being able to lift things out in in that has the same thing that's happening in podcasting right now the containers are connecting all of us in this feed ecosystem, but they're also dictating what information travels where and in what form and I just want to point. This out. No matter how wonky it seems because that structure, but dictates so much of what the current batch of tools can and can't do when it comes to analytics at discovery and more all across the board. And it's where platforms and tool builders have a huge opportunity to cleverly address or even bypass those containers. Once we get past this phase of where the podcasting industry is structurally right now. Yeah. I just think like we are in such early early early innings out podcasts can be because if you think about it again, this is not using the technical definition of podcast, but using this cultural definition of like audio record content. Right. Most of the time you're consuming that kind of content on an internet enabled device. It's not like you're downloading it onto your computer. And then like using a USB stick to transfer it to your phone, and so therefore like, we are not monetize ING this stuff. Or even creating features on top of it. That are internet native. There's so much stuff. We're not even tapping into. And it's such a shame because we're consuming these things on internet enabled devices, and yet we're using the same business. Model as televisions were you can't even do anything, which you which is not meant to be interactive. And there's like right now very little interaction with the podcast, which I think is such a shame. So I wonder if you guys kind of lightning round style on a couple of meat things that are artifacts of the existing world of content and how we think they're going to play out with podcasting. So let's just shave your take too because you have more expertise podcasts than anyone in the songwriter. Forget to do that as the host sometimes. Okay. So I want to ask you guys about seasonally. Like, what do you guys think of this trend of people dropping podcast seasons? So I love seasonality. It gives me a feeling of a mental at also recurrently living in a word. There's all things helping all the time. So that he thinks consume relate things have definite ends. And I I'm a big data seasonality personally also makes it easier. For bundling as different pricing down the line fascinating. So for me seasonality is so when I think of the long tail of content and Chris Anderson wrote the fundamental piece and book on this. It's this idea of an infinite shelf space and to me things being in software and being digital. It's unbounded to the point of being pointlessly infinite, and forcing a false scarcity is my favorite thing that like box in a month companies do ditch Vicks and make up whatever it's a way of curing, and creating a scarcity in a world of abundance. And I think that's really interesting packaging thing for any kind of content across the board, and especially for podcasting because there is no you're essentially, an infinite scroll in the audible world, you don't know where you are. You have no context, you're not plugged into a specific thing because you're living in this weird ecosystem voice and show or episode depending on how you're listening. So that's my quick dick unseasonally. Okay. So binge-watching this is related to seize analogy. One of the most fascinating things about Netflix phenomenon in the space of visual content. It's day realize like wait a minute. We don't have to do weekly things we can drop everything at once not release it as a season that spreads out once a week or whatever the pace is. Yeah. And allow binge-watching I think binge watching us great and it's natural human behavior for any kind of content. I suffer from it myself. Like, I was the kind of person I would watch the series twenty four I would watch a season, and like thirty hours, I didn't to its stranger things, and yeah, and it's just natural human behavior. And so I think it's great that we want to just be addicted and go deep all at once. And we can't stop herself. And actually in terms of for the creator. I think it's a good thing. Because you don't want that listener to kind of forget about it. Yep. I've is watch all the time. So I'm just going to hang devil's advocate that only like belief, but eighty percents one is I actually think that binge watching been shopping. As I said 'cause attention to a given show to deteriorate, right? They need to be the case where when a TV show drops weekly there sort of a pulse accommodation is drawn out over a longer period of time. If that show has hit I thought about that water cooler converse shortly like true detective game with our day thing every everything that he's bureau like that. That's the structure of it. I really liked that conversation, and I like to be on the same sort of pages. Other people when I'm having that conversation that something that never gotten with been show. I love the Russian doll. I couldn't find a single person posted about it who know time and like I can guarantee in about a month. I'm gonna forget about that shows to use a tortured metaphor the thing about binge TV that I enjoy doing, but I feel a little bit sick of being afterwards. It reminds me of like, you know, what I think when parents say that they do to certain kids where if the kids cigarette Steve make that kid Smith been tire that's kind of high feel after what I'd been a season. I feel like I don't wanna watch TV for like a month. Novel. You know, I like this is a behavior account. Well, there's a lot of the my whole thesis about this, which is similar to screen what screen time and kids because people always had these stupid religious debates over it's not so much the act of doing it or not doing it. It's why you do it. So if you're someone who's been watching because you're depressed, that's not good. But if you're someone who's been watching could you just can't stop watching the show. That's great. I will say to push back on your point, Nick because I know you're taking the devil's advocate. But I think that what you're describing this problem of the water cooler thing that you labeled it's actually artifact of technology, not quite being there because there is a movement of second screen technologies that are allowing more. There's forums online like read it that aggregate to give you a perfect example of this. When I finished through body problem. The first thing I did was go all the web to find all the forums. And all the people talking about it. So I could find my people and talk about it and find other people who loved it. And so there are tolls that are emerging that allow conversations to then to your point the water cooler to be aggregated as synchronous Louis, and there will be I think a second screen. Non happening with pod listening and binge listening as we start having the technology ecosystem grow. I can't see how you know. You don't want to spoil the ending. So you won't actually go to that form until you finish your you're absolutely right. And actually I'd like that you can have a choice because spoiler alert culture, which nNcholas slightly hinting that he misses at least on the devil advocate do in. There is sort of like a being where you can actually choose to check out of things yucca valley. So you're not stuck in a room with everyone talking and Benue are screwed because you missed the closing season of Dallas or whatever. So it was the other point. I would make about binge listening in this context is with binge-watching new types of narratives are happening. I'm very curious about what will happen as we start seeing binge listening of podcast seasons or podcast episodes to narrative, and how that's going to change that category of podcast where would cereal change the way it tells stories. Yeah. Because people are binging it. Well, then it becomes an audiobook. Oh interesting, then it'd be oh my God. I would have argued to almost opposite in the spectrum because it sort of going through. Book very quickly. But the flip side of it is when I'm thinking the analog with binge watching is that you can watch an entire season. And it changes the way you don't have to have a quick finger at the end of every episode, whereas even in a chapter people style a little bit of these things narrative, I I will say I think Syria, what have made a lot more money. If it allowed people to pay I think on the margin. Benja listening helps craters because if you can make someone pay for like a whole season at once maybe give them like one or two upsets for free. It's better that hoping that they're gonna come back every week, right? The surly resembles are really really interesting Cyril itself was an innovation of the foreign because it stuck to what podcasting was able to do at a time prior to the existence of Cyril was incredibly difficult to tell a serial is story over the radio in the form that they did it and secondarily to that they told that story in real in semi real time. And it's something that they sort of looked at the structure of what the distribution for that was to go. We'll go out. We'll see what happens. And so this is a little bit of like them playing. Perfectly to deform there. Go back a little bit to the point about like the second screen experience in the sort of the watercolor. So I I can see experiences. I live for NBA Twitter livered battery Twitter, but I gotta say I do like that experience with physical people. And that I miss hanging out watching TV my friends sometimes at the same pace that that's all. Ever since DVR arrive like we kind of lost it already. I think you guys are both being very falsely nostalgic for a past that never was because I mean, yes, there's a reality to be physically present. But again, we're in the early innings with all of this. We're investors in a company called big screen where you can essentially share in this ambient intimacy like hang out in VR like when there is a digital overlay over the physical world, just like people connect on Twitter for ambient intimacy. The cocktail party of the web, there will be a physical like experience that you have similar level of satisfaction. And hanging on real time with your friends, and it's just an artifact of technology that we're not hundred percent there yet. That's what I would argue at least but back to the binge-watching thing. I was going to add that when a season drops all at once. I added to my playlist, but I never watch it because what's also missing in this space. And this is again, why love the idea of binge-watching slash listening. For podcasting is the concept of morality, the viral hits don't happen instantly, unless you're like Joe Rogan experience. Yulon Musk's smoking pot on air like it's sort of a culture personality show it slow. Earn type of reality. And so seeing what people are talking about. And what resonates is hugely important for creators. Not because you fricking when a crowdsource what you want to say. But you do want to know it doesn't go. No black hole. I would love a world where in the future, you'll know which parts of the podcast the audience mouth. Right. My proxy for that. By the way, is I do Twitter searches all the time for the commentaries. It's a very skewed sample, but it's helpful. And I push the editors to to do this closes Loubier myth or not on Twitter because there is no other way to see. What resonated can't see like a platform? Just like saying tap your screen if you like this power, totally. Well, I don't know if this is public, do, you know, this Nick, but just doing screen shot? Audio shots of podcasting. Yeah. Is it public? Do you know unless you okay, but there will be sort of podcast sort of screen shotting in sort of audio clips, and I'm curious to see with or without the transcript Connie to your point about the importance of that whether those will go viral, it's crazy to me that these things don't have automatic transcription on the top hits. Like, that's such an easy technical thing to do. And for a listener that would mean that I don't have to just pause and say like, oh, yes, remember like Obama in the one minute thirty Mark later on and take. No, I actually love that too. Because one of the biggest limitations of podcasting is the lack of a quote screen shot equivalent. But that exists in China are not only can I see the transcript I can then comment on it. And I can make it. So only my friends concede are can make it. So the entire public can see. And then there's some Moore's right now we have patrons. Transmitted conversations around parts of your podcasts. And so it's okay. If the listener doesn't even get to the end 'cause you can have a highlight speed all kinds of stuff right now that we are not doing. And so I think this is like where the platforms can get much better at creating like e-, even if they just chunked up the best clips, right or maybe US, the creator you can throw out which clips you think are the best. They could easy for them to re post on other social mediums or background music to whatever. Now on some of these tools, but to your point it's fragmented is not central. Vein platforms don't allow that. Right. And certainly know Spotify, and I and others don't in fact, this is again where ecosystem so fragmented because the side players are there's a whole budding ecosystem of deals that are doing this kind of thing. It goes back to like like like some comments payments like tips like that's just like form of showing how much you like something craters don't know, which pieces of their podcasts where the best parts of the episode. They don't know where they don't know any of it. It's a black hole. But on the metrics, I want to say that one of my favorite analytics for podcasts. Success because I do think that we need to think about what you're measuring for for the type of show, you are an arc as what I care about is editor for the show is insights per minute. And this is the same thing as invites per inch in terms of like going down a verbal post. Yeah. Has when you have a brand collective and not a culture personality driven show. This is again where the metrics for the type of show. Need to vary as well. In my view for our kind of show if you're not like a famous personnel. Eighty than the insights per minute matter a lot to get people to stick and stay. Yeah. And then Secondly, when you think of audience discovery audience and movements of people in bands aggregating around a piece of content, then I care about if a show has a drop off halfway. Yeah. As a drop off point if the first half are people who are mainstream interest in learning about quantum computing. And then they drop off fifty percent. I consider that huge metric of success. And if the remaining fifty percent that stick around when much smaller subset of people who are developers and quantum computing are interested in building quantum computing are physicists, then that's a huge metric of success so Romy again, this is again, another granular way of thinking about the type of show the type of continent cetera. Now, we can't do any of this right now. But as we introduce new storytelling informs in podcasting. I think we'll be thinking a lot more differently than the obvious on those fronts to and about podcast engagement, which by the way, one quick factoid for you guys. The number one thing I hear from all of the publisher network because one of the things that I did when I came here was. Reach out to various people to beg them to put their authors. On the podcasts before authors became going on podcasts became the thing to do. And. Yeah, there's nothing that moves books. The way podcast you I've heard this over and over and over again from all of my publishing industry friends. Exact same thing the way that the podcast experiences. Currently constructed is drive sales. The but the question is is that when other platforms, or when the experience changes due to technical innovations or or new futures added would fundamentally change that relationship? Will there be the same kind of sales push that that we first right now, it's an open question. You work. I mean like to me it's like the same way. QVC's great. Wet assault stuff. Like podcast is a great way to sell content written content that people don't wanna read. But I think this is a bigger problem with the book publishing industry, meaning that they're not selling books in an internet native way. Right. There's no great way to figure out the highlights of a book. There's no way for me to read the first chapter for free. There's no way for me to like get a sense of do. I wanna pay for this entire book. I do that all of the bookstore were describing the I mean like. Bookstore. Yes. In a physical bookstore. You can do all these things, but on Amazon, you still can't write. This is another way where I think we're not thinking of the native medium because with it's crazy to me that books which are self contained with no context are still decoupled in audio book form in it's equally crazy to me that podcasting because of the structural limitation. He'd pipes. Don't actually have context built into them where you actually, Ty a podcast into the context of a broader show more by this author more on the topic to your point about PDF's and show notes and related materials. It's crazy me that there isn't a web link ecosystem for podcast right now. None of us stuff is being sold in an internet native way. I just think like the right now the way we sell books. It's like if you had no movie trailer, and you only had the movie poster right here like buying a book based off the cover, and maybe some quotes by people who've read, but you don't get to even see the trailer. And this totally actually skews the creators incentive for what kind of content to create. So like for. A book like are you going to pay twenty dollars for a twenty page book? Or will you feel better about paying twenty dollars for like a one hundred seventy page book? And then authors might have to write extra words for the sake of selling a, you know, that reminds me of Charles Dickens, where he was paid by the word, and that was like a funny artifact of the way the monetization was happening. But I would argue on the flip side of that. In a creator side. I think it's more important find your community because a beautiful being about again podcast or movements groups of people following either an show or an episode or a topic cereal fans, whatever it is. And so when you have thousand true fans in the Kevin Kelly phrase that are following a particular book, author or a particular topic or a particular podcast in our case. What we're doing is. We're mobilizing the fan base. Not because of that author, but because of the way we do our take without author like it sort of the Essex Z take on it. So when we did you Harari it was me and Kyle talking to him about all kinds of random stuff that was not even related to his book the point that it's a way to mobilize your movement your fan. Based in this goes to Nick's earlier point about patriot fan bases were Marco are men's point about brand as intimate connection. So my theory on this whole sort of lotion of like what people will pay for it people will pay as much for thing based on how valuable they thing. The thing is and so it's equally possible that a person looks at a twenty Facebook, thanks into twenty dollars. As it is that I looked at one hundred seventy finish books and things that they will pay twenty dollars for that. It really depends on how that person or how its message to this consumer value is right. And so this ties back a little bit to the notion of advertisers. An analytics analytics as constructed by technology company by platform by data team is an effort to tell the advertiser, this is how valuable you think this is and the art world values constructed in a whole different amorphous way. And so I think a one to one objectively of what is the right metric or how'd or well. How do we find the truth value of a certain thing, these are socially constructed things? And so I think that that should be a consideration. When it comes to. Think about even the book publishing industry. I usually get a celebrity Vokes would be price lot higher than it is. But you know, that's that's me. That is just one example like if you think about like a YouTube video like the crater is incentive to make it long enough. So you don't just what pre roll ad but also put like another ad in the middle. Which means the video has to be long enough to have enough gap time between the ads, right, really? Because I'm most popular videos on YouTube do really well or the short quick takes or two royals or like in those cases. It's another example of I mean, I think that's the reason why tutorial culture has taken off because people are self selected until like learning about XYZ, but like some creators will them their video. So they can put in a second ad. Yeah. I think those to me are the more old school creators that are doing that to monetize in that way. They're not the ones who are the influencers creators because the influence of craters have their I in a much bigger ball game. They're looking at moving their own frigging makeup lines. Like, you know, what I mean or like other things, but yes, that is sort of like the early phase of every platform and media medium is that you have a quick way to kind of game it to get what you need. Yeah. But I don't know if that works for the long lasting players YouTube in that situation is the arbiter of like, how of the data that tells advertisers. What's evalu-? But it's also the does that tells craters out of the way the creating some things it also because the situation where YouTube is the thing that interprets human behavior and makes some sense on based on those interpretations of what people are value wing. And so this is a this is like YouTube sort of defining reality and pulling levers in different ways. And so and they may be correct. They may not be correct in any case. It's all proxy reality. The may or may not be aligned we don't know if I agree. It socially constructed and values created and a lot of it is limited by the tools. People have for thinking about pricing, and they have heuristic for doing that based on those structures. I would also say that there's a really interesting opportunity, especially with podcast foot the model right where? Fans get paid. And in fact, Kevin Kelly made this really interesting argument in his book inevitable about how you swap your paradigm for thinking about attention in abundant software world, which is what we're talking about here abundant digital world bitter infinite there's no limit on airwaves in this context. You can actually flip the model where fans can monetize your attention. So you actually reorient, and this is actually the premise of crypto right or one of the premises of crypto at least in the notion of crypto networks where right now the locus of data controls a platforms with crypto, you can actually invert that where you are the user is a container of the data. So if you think about this in the context of media creation and podcasting how interesting to think about a fan monetize and their attention. Because of a fan is a sum of all the shows they watch maybe an advertiser wants to buy that fan and the fan directly monetize at that. Attention. I know that sounds crazy. But I don't think that's impossible in the world like this. He goes about looking me like is not if platforms can do that. Like, there's all this stuff. They need to experiment with before they even can get to something like this. If you believe. It has to go step wise because sometimes technologies can leap, I agree with you. I think it'll be I might only can't even get subscriptions or download for fuck sake. I do another quick only here your quick lightning round. Take on interstitial podcasting. Any thoughts on that the idea of like titles, lied or breaks, or segmentation, etc? I I'm it's like, you know, it's really important to orients your audience in to give to teach them. How to listen to the thing? It's an important great of tool. That's that's my view on Kenny. I think you have a lot of thoughts on this. Because it feels so China native people do describe more when eating just like it's kind of to your point about there being granularity like you can actually break up a show into sub parts having a little break. So I think enter such as great because again, it allows me to show you which parts of your episode. I value the boasts in which ones I'm willing to pay for. Yeah. For me. I will say that we tried some early experiments with segmentation because I got this funny feedback from people that they're like I listened to the podcast on the road and Mike commutes ten minutes, I wish there were ten minutes long and someone else's twenty minutes. I wish were twenty minutes long and someone else's like my commute, thirty minutes or forty minutes. Now, this ideal time for us at least thirty minutes has been the sweet spot in terms of like the beideal podcast is. But I don't think there's a rule of thumb because I'm whereby most popular episodes are an hour. Yeah. And also twenty minutes. So I don't know. But I did. Because of that I wanted kids on campuses like Stanford or wherever to have a way of listening to an episode and kind of have a nice natural. Stop off point. When you're watching a show the ability to kind of pause to me interstitial our way of creating a little bit of those moments and breaks. But Ben what I realize is that as an artifact of this industry all the tools eight your spot in where you're playing last in your player. Yeah. And so it kind of became a moot point that experiment didn't really work. But the driver for it. Is this thesis that Dixon says internet's made for snacking? Yeah. And podcasts can be beautifully long form. But I also think that there's a consumption mode in very short micro waiting moments to use a term from park paper on this concept that when you're waiting in line. Can you listen to a quick bite of content? Not just want something on your thing. Not just listen to it super interest. Yeah. Under we can fill micro waiting moments. And so I wonder if interstitial would play an interesting role. Really good discovery. Oh, yeah. Or vomiting likelihood of me findings like heading something that I don't like. Yes. Causes like this fear, and the listener, of course, unless you are then which currently is a model following a show or a personality like so much trust. Yes. Spend up the right because right because in the culture personality model people are following the person, not necessarily the guests. The notion of short audio is one nets Clinton talks about this. Also does this another reminder like what anchor essentially attempted to divert beginning of their of their journey and what ODA jets do. And it's one of those things where. It didn't both of those at a recent thing, quite work. We don't know now anything to do with what people want or if if it's the case that people were not ready for that yet the last one because we have seen over and over with technology. There's like five Facebook before there's a Facebook that works. I subscribe to the view of the world in which human beings are generally plastic. And so you could force a human being to accept just about anything. And so it's a question of whether there whether the right startup or the right platform executes, the right experiment or right time with the right group of people that's kind of beings are creators of emergent behaviors. Because this is where you can never predict the second order effects of new mediums, right? Like Twitter spawned all kinds of interesting emergent behaviors. And that is the fundamental truth of abolition of all kinds of technologies, but it's all technically, I mean, this is not like cutting edge science technology that doesn't exist yet. It's just a platform hasn't put all of these things in place. Yeah. But in fact, that matter is is that social stuff like social audio stuff. Like, I anchor initial bid to be the Twitter of audio. Stuff like like Odio, which is slow Twitter was before Twitter became Twitter, which is essential for audio. Is that we need a we need proof that the consumer side will lead the way that it will stick with them. So, but that's the problem, right? If we're waiting to have like survey data to see if this works, the no platforms going to experiment on it. And this is why like new startups a new platforms need to experiment with how to engage with podcast. I think it's like a given that everyone would prefer to have no ads in their podcast. And that's why it's up to all the platforms to figure out how to create the tool so craters can still make money make money many think what they're making. Now, I actually think craters are vastly underpaid and podcasts, and it's up to the platforms to figure out how to help them monetize. So we can get ads out of the podcast itself. I don't think we're disagree. I think we're coming out of the direction because my number one principle in thinking through these things is that nobody what happens in terms of future development in Nevada. What happens knows? Whether certain platforms tools ends up innovating on these friends, whether creators themselves end up controlling their destinies in this situation, whether they control the means of distribution like the entire wave been tiled learnings of what happened of YouTube and YouTube creators, really Hans a lot of the people I speak to when I report we can week out does the nation the nature of the platform being capricious and altering the way that they expect certain revenue projections over time. And so I I'm presently all for the ability to create better to instructors to streamline patron, and their revenues of pathways straight into the listening a point, but the, but the fact that matters, I all these pieces connecting the listener to the creator are all going to be controlled by the people. And I think this is the the nature of things that brings the most Zayed's to to create a class right now. Of course, the creator Cozma change over time with changing expectations of how things should work. Cayenne hearing you saying that there's huge experimentation that's already happening in China that we're not even. Remotely seeing here. That is also a case. However, we have platforms because to the point of tipping as an example Nicholson mentioned patriot as a good thing. But you know, clearly one of the big structure limitations in the US. Is that people don't obviously always have their credit cards linked on there in the way that you haven't we chat or like that. We've talked a lot about on the highlights Apple Pay right around like payments, right? Like people oftentimes little say like, oh, our payment infrastructure is why none of this stuff would work when you're you're saying that you're saying that's a cop out. Okay. That's fair. So then maybe tipping needs to be done at a more micro level. Even just the money. It's also helping a crater see who their real fans. Are you want the one thousand true fans, then right now, it's like a one way conversation like why can't the platforms that allow you to listen to podcasts? Also, allow me to record a quick message back to you. And then also like use algorithms to figure out which comments are valuable or not. I think we agree in that sense like platform, should basically do more for their users and experiment. I also agree with Nick though on the. Point that he's raising. I don't like the assumption going right to platforms as the default owners of this under default aggregating of this. And this kind of goes to Ben Thompson who writes about agregation theory a lot. Yes, just a fancy name for network effects and a lot of ways. I mean, he's very much more nuance. But it is at the end of the day the tension between centralization between bundling an unbundling and these cycles at constantly go back and forth in ways, especially with the YouTube platform like you look at how the influencers to start on YouTube channel ten years ago. They have massive followings now. On YouTube, which is Nick's point. Yes. But also, it makes it really hard for a newcomer to come in and create a YouTube channel and get to that one million subscriber count, right? And in the similar way. Like, even now I hear about so many friends even starting podcasts. Oh, yeah. It's very competitive. Like there are people who barely get to ten thousand listens for episode. And that's insane. Like get more competitive. Right. And so I think all these new platforms are kind of interesting because as they try and pick off craters to have them exclusive to their platform this dynamic may change yet. But it's really interesting because like for video it was like winter take all which is not you in podcasting is I'm curious then for your guys take because we're back to the point of centralization is to give people a better user experience and choice and variety and ease of use. What do we think about the moves of Spotify and apple in the space, especially given Spotify news if you weeks ago of acquiring Gimblett? So I think the necessarily by going here is that for the longest time apple has been. Primer distributor of podcasting. The that it used to be somewhere. Upwards of eighty percent, we believe it's now somewhere between lake sixty to seventy five maybe. But with today's infinite dial studies, it's a it's a Justice that Spotify has grown der particular, but Renault are seeing like like fifty fifty parody or something we're we're just not seeing that just yet. So Spotify the business case for Spotify. Going to podcasting or spoken audio writ large pulling their business model away for being completely tethered to dynamic the dynamics of the music industry, which is to say a music industry. That's that's very that's been very costly for them to play in. And it's been very costly. For a lot of music platforms to try to come in and take over since distribution power from the music labels. So Spotify looked in the situation and go we're we see a category of of content here that is significantly cheaper. That is still unwieldy, and it still untamed, and we can try to figure out our place in that role and sort of push as off the narrative of just being a music company. And giving yourself other avenues of growth, and that impacts like the company's branding and positioning. Right. It's no longer seen as just a music company, but like an audio destination for all kinds of audio. Absolutely. And in that same way like Spotify was also known for helping you discover stuff you'll like I think this is also reflection. They're realizing like podcasting has gotten so large in terms of how many new craters are jumping in. Can you guys address the exclusive shows angle I actually see both models working? Really? Well, I think if you have a platform where anyone can submit a podcast that can be great. You can have long tail craters. But I also think podcast that says, hey, I'm going carry at the top two three hundred podcasts can also work really well to both have great monetization potential, if they wanna be niche or just long tail so I mean, we have a couple of situations. That's probably that's pretty interesting ride metal. So there's been a paste podcasting ten for quite since I call Stitcher premium. It's a it's a sort of layer on top of us fairly Popular Party podcasts. Called Stitcher, which is part of Monroe early this week. We saw the formal announcement of a company called luminary that's attempting to be they've they've literally the tagline sort of net net. Flicks for podcasts, which is going to be difficult because the primary challenge Dr is that they're trying to build a catalog of things that you could argue has free alternatives was everywhere else. But I have a couple of times before I another thing that stuck yet. But like, I think we should be looking at head space as a really interesting like comp here. What do you mean by that? So hit space essentially is an on demand audio app performs a very specific function that provides a very specific genre of on demand audio content. It fits into one's life in a very very specific way. You know, exactly what you're paying for it, and you can find quality alternatives. Elsewhere of that forum, generally speaking, and so we're in a situation where we there there is some lane here to build a pay podcasting platform. The question is like. Will there be a really really big one? Or will it be a series of smaller ones that ends up being bundled over the long run. And I think we are at the very beginning of being to answer that question. I agree. I would also say for people in the know in terms of the history of podcasting in the recent past five years, I think I've seen versions of net flicks for podcasts. And one of the member aren't even if you remember this Nick is sixty db acquired by rule. Right. They got acquired by Google. And I don't know what Google doing inside. But the promise like it's still a subscription problem. I would love subscription service. But I think I would rather pay for a specific podcast. Oh my God. Yes. So my number one complaints, everyone as you heard my whole thesis on this a million times, which is personnel. Podcasting. Such a homogeneous word, we've defined it technically and in user experience. But when I think of the content sign of podcasting. I like to split it into a simple tax on any of three types of shows. There are personality based when I call culture personality based shows. You know, like, Azure, Klein show, the Tim Ferriss show and Mike God, by the way. Most of them are named after meal names legis not go Goff on that one the next category. Besides culture personality shows is what I call it more collectives or like brands or voices of groups of people, which is what I would consider the six z podcast yet. And then the third show is a much more produced serialized like cereal or narrative type of podcasting show. That's a very loose broad checks on me, if you think of these three categories discovery for each of them, it is so frustrating to me again going back to the containerization model that discovery is limited at a show level again, structurally. It's terrible. I keep bringing up structure because everyone is so caught up in talking about discovery and monetization. They're missing the big opportunity here, the bigger thing, which is defining a new unit of analysis of episodes versus shows, and possibly even more granular units within that I hate that. We're still stuck in the legacy ways of thinking about this when we can bypass things at software. We don't have to have the CD stage. I to get to the individual song stage, and it also. Talk to people all the time about how feeds limit what tools outside the big platforms can do like not being able to tag podcast by topic. Because I believe we all need the ability to find episodes not entire shows. I like Bergson birdwatching I should be able to find any episodes on those topics regardless of show, Connie you like real estate and crafts, you should be able to fucking fine those topics and discover every single episode on those but see this is where transcription and tagging and like just a much smarter internet native way of displaying podcast makes all of that like automatic. There is no technical reason why we cannot automate transcribe all the top podcasts. And again, like I think subscription for like entire platform doesn't necessarily make sense for podcasts. Like, maybe it's a good starting. It makes us on election of light. But hey, maybe you're a podcast, and you're only gonna create like a couple episodes. But it's really really good content. Why can't you let people pay for that? And again, I think it's not just about the money that's getting transferred. The problem right now is like. There are certain podcasts that I would happily pay for an a bunch that. I would not pay for. Yeah. Exactly. And right now, these platforms don't give you that option to say, hey, these are the ones that I ascribed more value too, much less even to say, I like the sonar comment or anything. I mean, right. Well, you're also looting. When you talk about the transcription of shows, though, is like in this is obviously another key point of discovery is it goes again parallel to the web. There was a curated links. Phase that preceded the portal phase that preceded the search phase give it a couple of months goes Google is working on that. And the are beginning to test all of that in terms of descriptions in terms of weather podcasts shows or audio large shows up in search engines, but they're not even going to have all the podcast, right exclusive podcasts on luminary, Google's not gonna have. Well, then that's luminaries fell the end of the day. Like, I think Google situation is is of going to pull in the RS feeds or to go to pull it. They're gonna pull in podcast that exists on the open sort of ecosystem, and they're gonna transcribe it and are gonna index it within the search engine like. Rather than rely on Google as a search engine to do it at least, very basic transcription and search all the platforms should be able to do it themselves. And like imagine all the other stuff you'd like to tack onto like, hey, maybe an addition to the podcasts on podcast today. You have like five links that the listener can go in and click while you're playing I would love the ability to embed link, natively or instantly. Yes show, then charge more money for right? Like, hey to read more, right, right? Maybe like all the like parts that you cut out. Yeah. Special clips, maybe someone pays like a dollar to two on top it. Right. We'll have to pay for the paper stuff that I want. But is I mean, look this normal person that has like finances. I don't think I'm gonna spend more than x amount of money per month on detainment goods, and I agree that people aren't gonna spend like tons and tons of money on podcast. But I think the better craters would get more rewarded for their content, which means new. Craters that don't have you know, crazy followings to begin with can still get paid. I agree. But the question is like I've heard a lot of argument that it's really hard to become a patron supporter or find a way to give you money to a creator that you release for. I do wonder the nature of that assumptions there's there's only so much fiction. Lists of so much attacking the friction that we can introduce it at layer that we find what the Mexicans loose officiant point of you know, listener supporting critters ends up becoming. But that is assuming that I want to support that specific crater, maybe I only wanted to for that specific episode. Yeah. Maybe I don't actually want to give the tip to all. But I wanna give it to Connie neck, right? Looked up on. Okay. I mean, like no seriously like the way that we are thinking about about paying it's not necessarily the same person. Who's speaking even on every podcast, and the fact that we aren't able to more directly indicate and tie. Our money to the products that we truly truly value. I just think that's really lost opportunity. So let me let me push back a little bit. Right. So the assumption here is that the show is made up of that this show is made up of you me. And you know, let's say a producer. And let's say a couple of people behind the scenes, but I think the reality is that most of the production structures constitutes a lot more people than the listener can ordinarily see. So what listener who listener is moved to tip doesn't necessarily translate to who's actually creating the content because that's there's a entire list entire soda conversation over here in terms of how listeners value the creators, how days would have assumptions about what they want support. How to support why do you want to support? There's a there's a huge of there are a lot of gaps information there to give all that our listeners. I think this there still should be some middle point there in terms of how support works not saying it can't go to a show. Oh, but our show is even then supporting a show is different than supporting a person. I'm hearing both of you guys. I also hear that. There is a lot more granularity you can do because we have an infinite web. And the fact that we define things as containers of a feed or podcast or show or an episode. These are all things we can redefine in this new era. And I agree. It's very early innings. I also agree. Soho heartedly that a thriving content ecosystem has to support its creators. And I know you're arguing for that too. Because you're arguing in this framework that people have more comments, they have more bleed interact with their top fans, you're saying the same thing from a different angle, but from pure business perspective in terms of being able to run a business that is based on podcasting. There does need to be a middle layer. Where creators can get the value they need and for me the open question, quite honestly is whether the assumption or thesis that happened with blogging, and this is actually the initial premise of anchor as well, which Spotify also acquired is whether there will be now a new wave of mobile pod. Casts creators who don't have tools again with tools like descript, which democratize editing, right tools, like just being able to record a podcast in your phone without having to have like a fancy zoom recorder or Mike's like that is an open question to me. And I don't know people are really going to listen to that. Because we have this discovery problem in the ecosystem, and yet there are few centralized show points that are coming up now, particularly tunes Spotify Pandora, etc. By the way, on this notion of growing the podcast ecosystem in the total addressable market size. What do you guys make of radio here because that has its own set of structural and policy and regulatory considerations. I'm curious for your take on that aspect of it. Well, I think the market size for podcasts as multiples larger than what it is today. And I do think it's tapping into radio, but it's also tapping into other things that do really well in the audio format. So like audio books that are self published for example, things that are related to the knowledge sharing market for adult learning interest, really really work. Well for audio formats, there's. A lot of stuff where I don't need to watch someone talking on YouTube with like a whiteboard because usually they don't even really need the whiteboard. And there is a funny argument to be made, which is that people. Also, listen to audio and YouTube, and in fact, Chris Anderson was telling me his son watches entire movies on YouTube, okay in audio mode, only which I think is breaking fascinating. I also just listened to movies on you to all the sides. I yes, YouTube also works for for audio. But I mean, just imagine topics around business topics around finance topics around parenting, even like, meditation, and how to like improve your life all of that stuff works really well in the audio format and doesn't necessarily always require video. So anyways, those kinds of podcasts. At least today are not the mainstream podcast strike because today mainstream podcasts are again around shows versus individual pieces instead of being like a TV show. Why can't you be like a movie, and it's like this one time thing that goes really deep, which is really valuable content. And I think if you take that kind of definition for podcasts at is so massive, so let's begin to whole notion of trust or easier. Right. Like, we it is a an. Industry completely utterly defined by the nature of the Bishop bution points. It is intense going out if it hits you in a car it hits in aradio and it commands billions and billions of dollars. My interpretation of that industry. And it's sort of strange persistence has a lot to do with advertiser relationships. It is it is it is still the medium that has the most easy reach for in that hits the most Americans and has the most like history behind it. And so if you're an advertiser, you feel significantly more comfortable because this that is your default in the streets of by into. And I feel like that feeling of safety and confidence is something that should not be understated. And it's something that all digital media sort of sectors, including podcasting and beyond it. She thought to be cotton is enough. Like, that's that's one of the primary things driving that that situation reason why ads work so well on radio and it works while I'm podcast to sometimes them. It comes in the voice of the crater versus the voice of. The Brandon like some other random voice, right? The sort of buzzword that pike as industry executives all the times into the sea. Right. That's the with y you sort of hear the who's read at being the pinnacle of the pockets advertising experience. And it's also it's most valuable add like ads lot at type. And so, you know, that's why like a lot of genes that you pointed out when you when you saw to build the taxonomy of podcast is very personality driven. It's very people driven. That's why there's a little tricky a little bit of chicken as we talk about something like fiction podcasts or non aerated podcasts in how you monetize at high Bill that relationship, I agree. It's very much native to the content of the storytelling in the medium. In that context. At some point. We will see innovations in business models innovation in distribution in in the structure in the in the sort of like, you know, container of it that will alter the the the advertising assumptions here or the modernization assumptions here, but is ought to go back to the tight back to the very first thing we talked about the deficit. Of it. What we think about how we think about our assumptions it of it being personality driven or show driven episode driven. It needs to fragment at some point it kind of needs to break up because it needs to be a universe at canton that can hold a bunch of different kinds of experiences in the same way that we think about television. We don't we're not just talking about breaking bat. We're talking about real fortune. We're talking about like, so many different kinds of we're talking about like American idol, which is such an important movement around the world when you think of the future of content and challenge hangs, right? But the point is that there is a whole that that was a huge reality TV like our thanks around holidays. Right. Just Super Bowl. Right. Once the vans. Right. Like this is again like we have to break away from the show. Exactly agree. Do your point an terminology thing. Nick. I would say the word fragmented reviews at in the context of industry fragmentation to me. It's more how to make a homogeneous term more heterogeneous and have more diversity embodied within it. Yes. And so. The question here is sort of like, do we think about the spread as on the one hand, you have prestige TV and on the other hand, you have reality TV, or do we think about the spread more like on the one hand, you have Netflix on the other hand, you have twitch like is that the way we're going to think about ecosystem at large or we're going to be specific when we use the term when we do our coverage. I think that's also, you know, what we talk about this important about how we talk about it. So. I wanna ask you questions. There's so many of my friends today who want to create podcasts, and you create a sixteen podcast from scratch to what it is to full credit. It was actually created before I joined, and I I took over at three months on the production, and then hosting it user base massively. The listenership grew under your care. So I think you should talk about what how what are your tips for someone who just wants to get started and podcast. There could be its own episode. And I love to do that some day. So I guess maybe on the spirit of creation, which is a theme of this episode. I just say some very quick high level takeaways, which is one and I do this. When I give a lot of toxin talk to founders about how to start their own things for their company. Yes, I think the fundamental thing people need to ask is where they are in the taxonomy of shows that I outlined because that is sort of a flow chart for what your next step is for either how to hire build or just what tools to use if your culture personality show, the things you can do are very different than if you're doing a brand show than if you're doing a serialized narrative show. So the first thing I always ask people is the what is your goal, and what kind of show you want because it's a very crowded environment. So then the next thing is attention is scarce. With guessing maybe less, oh because you a bit of a captive audience in a phone or commute or workout or a a, you know, a situation where they are on hike or walk where they're only gonna listen. But even then you are competing with other shows of the number one thing is how you differentiate your show and one of the number one ways to get a lot of listeners is to have a lot episodes writing about besides. And so the other way to do it then it's to enforce seasonality where you drop a season of episodes. And then just like drop them in like you wanna do it. It's like a long term commitment. I don't think it has to be because as you've also talked about there's a lot more tools emerging and startups emerging that will allow like experimentation for now it has to be a long term commitment. I think Ben Thompson said his headcount is the biggest predictor of how much people invest in something. And if a company has people dedicated podcasting than you know, they're serious about podcasting. I would say it's as simple as that. So you do have to invest in it to make it happen yet. But on the simple mechanics, one of the most beautiful things is the thing that I complained about which is a very thing that also is the best thing about podcasting is a feed ecosystem make. It's so easy to simply record an episode distribute wherever you want, and then it's about using the feed ecosystems, then freely put your feet out all into the world because it's a simple all I tunes is doing is taking a bunch of feeds all we had to do when we go out on. Spotify was like feed him our feet. Young people can self select the feeds into different apps, so you can use that to your advantage. And there's a ton more about the content side. But the one thing I do wanna say is that the editing process is now becoming democratized because there's a huge gap. I would often put it as analogy between design and manufacturing design phase manufacturing phase, and you need clothes and tighten that feedback loop to get the best content out, and what's happening with tools like descript, you, tighten this feedback loop between design and manufacturing where you no longer have to separate creators and writers from the technical skills of actually editing podcast. Yeah, that's really important because there's a whole much of tools now on the analytic side that will end there are new bunch of distribution tools. That are now connecting all these pieces and supporting creator. So the very quick answer. There's so much more could say I need to know another podcast on how to create podcast. Well, that would be fun. Thank you for joining these podcast. Thank you so much for having me. I I really enjoyed this talk. Thank you.

Nick Kwa Twitter Spotify Facebook China Connie Chan YouTube editor Pandora Dave winer publisher Marco Kevin Kelly Gimblett
Designing for, Marketing to, and Partnering With Gen Z

a16z

33:49 min | 9 months ago

Designing for, Marketing to, and Partnering With Gen Z

"Hi Folks at quick announcement before we begin as mentioned, we're sharing other podcasts here that you might be interested as well. Since the best way to discover podcast is to hear about them on other podcasts and the next podcast where sharing is solvable a weekly podcast brought to you by Pushkin Industries where Malcolm glad well, and Applebaum and Jacob. Weisberg. How we can find solutions to some of the biggest issues of our time. This is of course at beam top of mine for many of you too which is why we're sharing it. The show focuses on problems that seem too big or too complicated to fix. But in the hands of the right people, scientists, policymakers, and others at the top of their fields, there are ways to solve them. That's the hopeful message of solvable listen and subscribe now and your favorite podcast APP. The content here is for informational purposes only should not be taken as legal business tax or investment advice or be used to evaluate any investment or security, and is not directed at any investors potential investors in any a sixteen fund for more details please see a sixteen dot com slash disclosures. Hi and welcome to the a sixteen Z podcast. I'm more Monroe. Gen Z. Those born between one, thousand, nine, hundred, five in two, thousand, and ten. Now make up thirty five percent of the population represent one, hundred, forty, three, billion dollars in spending power. This episode is about how brands can better understand collaborate with and resonate with this hugely influential segment of consumers. Our Guest Tiffany Song is the twenty four year old CEO of Zebra, IQ a company that helps brands interpret the wants, of Gen, Z. Consumers and helps Gen Z. creators turn their content into businesses in this conversation tiffany and a sixteen Z General Partner Connie Chan discussed the key differences between Gen Z. and millennials the growing power of short form video on platforms. TIKTOK and Youtube are changing perception of luxury and how Gen Z. is shifting the paradigm run money education and work the pair breaks down how brands can partner with Jesse influencers in a way. That's compelling not cringe-worthy and why when it comes to memes and the art of Emoji you're probably doing it wrong. The first voice of here is tiffany followed by Connie. If, you don't have to use using your product or talking about product or share your product. To, break it to you you're irrelevant, and so that's what every single company that is targeting consumers needs to care about whether you're a fortune five hundred company or whether you're a startup are their percents that jazzy has mental. Jansy considers anyone who is not really speaking their language or not understanding trends boomer. It doesn't matter if you're a millennial, it doesn't matter if your genetic doesn't matter of your boomer. Jets. BOOMER's anyway. Do you think though given how personalized Z. has preferences on that? There is a definitive. This is cool. This is not cool a changes weekly so you have to keep up. If you understand what's score not. Really hard on the wardrobe man to. Say that the difference between Jansy and millennials is much bigger gap than between millennials older generations I would say so because Gen Z. is the first generation that's mobile I and mobile native I totally agree millennials will say were mobile first but there's a lot of stuff that we still feel much more comfortable going to a computer to do they ticket purchases. We still feel like we're safer on the browser for some reason whereas Jesse's do everything from their phone right? It's like we're we're used to that. We're used to buy things from our phone signing documents from our full for better for worse requiring much more instant gratification. I'd say the youtube videos even now to me feel too long if the first minute is the person apologizing and trying to be politically correct, they just need to get to the point where the Roi has to be real. Yeah. If it's good content if it's entertaining content, then boomer out and you've lost us. When people say Okay I want to go be an influence are now before for millennials that was you became a youtube star now as A. More desirable to be tiktok influence Sir versus Youtube. One certain ones are clearly more easy to go viral on. Twenty nine percent of youth in America wants to become bloggers or youtubers versus twenty three percent want to become professional athletes. The more people want to become youtubers than athletes, which is a massive shift on the platform that Gen Z. wants to be an influence or on tiktok seems the easiest for people because we've obviously seen Charlie demilio becoming one of the biggest influencers in under a year the conversations around the actual talks right now are like living on other platforms, but it's Super Valuable Tiktok. Stars are all spending time on Youtube now. It's a natural growth phase so Are tiktok stars the new. Youtube. Stars. There's a whole correlation there in the sense that if you're big on Tiktok, the way you can really continuously build your audience status sustainable is on Youtube. But many have not been able to be successful on Youtube. It's more likely. They will not be successful actually because they haven't really adapted on how to make long form content there used to making sixty second videos which doesn't translate well to Youtube. You Wanna be making ten minute videos because that's how you monetize. There is no. Easy variety factor you just gotta be really good at distribution and marketing honestly especially in tech talk there so much remix name culture it's not necessarily original one, hundred percent. And maybe that's part of why it's hard when they translate to you to for the most part, you have to come up with something completely people who are really really good storytellers will be able to do. So across different mediums whether it's Tiktok whether it's you whether instagram weather's twitch I, think the shot from video especially the stuff on Tiktok it's what's the punchline what's the actual point of the video that makes it interesting and why it's so democratizing video creations you don't need to bring light to be a good tiktok crater. You literally just need your phone. Yeah. On Tiktok you get thirty seconds, you can record it with your phone you can have whatever quality of. Video and as a good story line, people will watch it and people shirt or if you're adding value to the viewers life. Young short videos are not just jokes I. Mean, I cringe when people say tiktok is a bunch of people dancing to music because I'm like you clearly have not use this thing. Right there's educational stuff on it. There's financial advice on Tiktok. There is stuff that teaches you how to cook. So short videos a really powerful form I think, and it's basically getting rid of the fluff that you don't need and delivering maximum value per second. Literally per second because you can lose the person after like three or four seconds of it's not good enough. To your point people talk just a fun lip synching at or dancing. APP. And it's not it's a place where he can learn anything you ever wanted to learn. Whether it's cars whether it's how to take photos how to model I've watched so many talk videos about videography tips and I phone tricks and all sorts of stuff, and it's just endless amounts of short form education I think that has never been used to describe to talk for education I'd be curious on your thoughts on the kind of content that historically people would argue better in texts and how does Z. React to you know that's super thoughtful off a on the New York Times or product reviews that your is can actually agreed much faster than you can watch jen's preferred video over text for like ninety nine percent of things. How'd you bounce that though with the efficiency? Where you can actually read much faster than you can watch for some of these things. True. But not only do we want to be able to consume the content in a reasonable amount of time I also want to be entertained at the same time, which is why video is such a huge format for Gen Z. texts is less relevant because there's less emotions you can't see someone talkie sixty, five percent of Jesse prefers facetime to any other form of communication to keep in touch with friends and what people don't realize is when Jen's is doing a facetime phone call, it's not like they have to hold the phone the whole time. They might be video chatting their friend or their parents while simultaneously doing like three other things multitasking is what we were bored into because of smartphones were used to switching between tabs quickly switching between acts quickly I definitely see different communication behaviors across different generations. One thing I think people don't realize is just how many young folks have multiple instagram accounts, for example, or multiple twitter accounts because they have to show different aspects of their personality in man parts of their lives. Every person has dual personalities. You have a personality that you bring to work. You have a personality that you bring your friends you have a personality that you bring your family. Many more than that. But yes. and. So that's how Jesse's has started to establish themselves. They want to be able superfluid and switch across these different identities this. Fake into account, which is really just for personal France is for this set of friends or this one's for this set of interest based friends. This one's for this community. That's how these Vince does start becoming created, but it's more like on Tiktok. Bit can be a different version of themselves on instagram still keep that polishers of insults where you have different personas on different spectrums of that authenticity scale. And then on different ones, you're going to reveal more information or less information about yourself to some you'll reveal your actual name where you live some it's all random user names on purpose. There's more control over what people can see how they would. It jetties definitely, very smart about the perception that they put out there across different social media networks Jesse's our branches. From Age ten, Daler Okay my instagram needs to be like this. My Youtube needs to be like this. My tiktok needs to be like this twitter needs to be like this is like so different than how millennials genetics perceive content I definitely think millennials the way that we grew up on social to put our best foot forward. Right you always wanted to make sure. The photos that you are posting reflected well on your, you would tag yourself on the face of so wouldn't it be? Linked back to your profile, right we used to do that and then just think about all filters that we use on our photos, all the photo APPs. But I do feel like there is change swinging back to don't put a filter on everything or doesn't have to be in the most flattering angle, but it's not necessarily. That they will do that across all social media, your main instagram, you still care about your follower count. You still care about your life. She still care about your comments for fence does it doesn't matter as much to get one like it doesn't matter because it's really just where you could be your real self something. I'm not us on and I think tiktok is there's less of a fear of being on video. There's less of a fear around creating general. Totally to talk has made people really comfortable with being themselves like showing the no filter life. Yeah. because. The weirdo you are the more chances you will go viral. This youtuber Chamberlain one of the fastest growing Gen Z. influencers who has one of the highest engagement rates across young influencers. Now her content is all very authentic. She's very much herself. She mixes in that very relatable aspect was very aspirational and I think the best influencers are able to be both aspirational N. relatable. That's why raw photos videos are actually bridging the connection between influence. Creator and fans more. So than a really polished version of yourself that doesn't seem very attainable when you're fan sitting at home, you want to feel like you could be that influence or to someday how do you find the right influence to work with? Historically people just look at okay. How big is your following? What should they be thinking? You look at the type of content posting is that similar to the type of content you post on your social media is on brand. Are The in your niche are the already talking about products in your space or your space in general, and then there's the checking if they have real fans in authentic family by looking at engagement rate. Social Blade is a really simple website which lets you look at any accounts, any pages on social media across Youtube twitter twitter to talk instagram and see how fast growing see how many followers they got yesterday how many followers they got seven days ago thirty days ago how many followers they lost as well. So that's a really authentic way to go and track how fast accountants really grown is seek their relevant a growth in their engagement through that and I think you will see that a lot of these smaller influencers actually have really really high engagement rates because they have more time to spend. So fans reciprocate. Houston Leeann. called Bella Porch started becoming super relevant with her head bobbing tiktok videos. She's really blown up. Now you could spotted at a couple of months ago if just debt social blade in watched on she literally exponentially. So how did you balance for Gen Z.. Choosing influencers versus traditional celebrities people from movies TV shows you're laughing because. I. Feel like you have an answer probably. CONTRI- into a lot of marketers probably believe today. So everybody's still give you that legitimacy factor to a certain extent, but it better be extremely on brand to be working with very specific celebrity that you choose not because of their fame but because maybe they've talked about brand ready or they shake your brand on where your brand or use your brand or eat at your restaurant, whatever it is the has to. Be something like that. There do not pay a celebrity million dollars to promote a brand. They don't give a shit about a save many brands who've just bird money on celebrities if fluence are good for more authentic collaborations that are closer to home for the fan celebrities are not relatable and so I think there's a good way to mix in both celebrities, massive influencers and also micro influencers if you really want to be strategic in how you utilize your money. Celebrities and superstars still exists. It's just the ones that you think have lasting power are really the ones that feel like they're your friend some level of being relatable aspiration unrelatable gotTa be both on the influence side. Do you believe that the lifespan of someone's popularity has also shortened in line where previously you might have a celebrity or an influence her that you love and you follow for like ten twenty years? Do you feel this new? Generation is going through them quicker. How do you think about the lifespan of content movies TV, influencers in solves your shelf life can actually be extremely long if he seek about it from a strategic standpoint of brand building as an influence there. Now, a lot of influencers aren't really seeking about ten year lifespan. They're thinking about, how can I make as much money in the next year as possible and I think that is a huge problem because. They are treating themselves like they are their own media companies. They aren't treating themselves like they are accompanying that they are the CEO of the people have had really long shelf lives people who have adapted with the audience the people who listen to the audience that people who engage audience and make the fans feel like they are being heard and as your audience grows older, you're content adapts with that swab you grow older you're content matures a little and your fans grow older as well. It's more important to have longer term customer retention. And, lifetime value than customer growth is more important to have a thousand super fans than ten million fans who will never buy anything from you. Especially, as kind of these short video platforms potentially go into commerce. What are your thoughts around these craters influencers making merchandise than solves and becoming stores really I. Think creators are starting the new billion dollar commerce brands in the near billion dollar media companies or seeing that with. People, Building Tech Companies David, dobric, you built an APP raised venture financing for it. His merch brand is doing incredibly well, but would also have to say like one of the top youtubers he's not indicative of Muslim he's not, but he is a really good role model for a lot of craters what they can do. Any age that has a really strong fan base. Can establish their own commerce brands. They are a media brand already because they're creating content. How can they parlayed into something that is relevant to their audience, and it's also very dependent on how the platforms allow you to monetize either through on commerce capabilities or more gifting more memberships you name it the platform so far in the Western world have not done very much a skew might be a phone call. A skew might be shoes that they have designed all sorts of different product lines that they're coming out with the youtuber that I mentioned Emma. Chamberlain. Really Young, really big audience. She started her own coffee brand and it's doing really well with John. What are kind of big misconceptions or the big mistakes that browns have made when they're trying to target Jesse I think the biggest mess ups is when brands randomly jumped onto ban reidents or trans without fully understanding where the trend has come from what the trend means at how long that can last and how it is relevant to Jansy. If you don't speak in Jena's language, but you try to without actually spending the time to understand it, you get laughed at mocked on the Internet and turned into me. Negatively. That is when you become like a very cringe-worthy brand. I. Find One brands try to use news last cringe sometimes they get it wrong they very often get. So I would say like. Brandy WanNA use a mean see what the community I comes up, and then just retreat that kind of stuff do not attempt to create your own version of it be produced it and it comes out cringe comes out awful. You have to understand the origin of it. How long does memory of that cringe reaction lot depends on a viral it goes if it goes really viral and there are press articles about how bad it is than it may take to recover. I have for anyone who is trying to understand Gen Z. trends per se is. Open Tiktok don't just wash talks make one make a Tiktok read the comments. That is how you understand Jen z's really really quickly put into work and you're actually be able to. Do An. Awesome campaign. Reading the comments on Gen Z. Tick Tock pages reading the comments on. TIKTOK gossip pages like tiktok room on instagram. Are All Jansy. That means all the comments you read. There are posted by Jesse's, and that means that is how they're talking whether it's trends they're talking about whether slang terms they're using whether it's emojis they're using to express themselves through the art of texting. One of my favorite slides in your deck was actually the emergency dictionary where it was showing that that traditional happy face is actually not a good thing to send to agenda because it can be an extremely passive aggressive smile. That's like part of our personality to be self deprecating and to be really honest but masquerade that honesty in a joke. This is why sarcasm is now so hard to read through texts it seems very easy to misread attacks and now misread the Emoji I did not know that the Cowboy Emoji in your opinion is actually a negative thing to oh. Yeah. Very surprising for a lot of people I've actually converted a genetic friends into New Jersey style extinct I had to teach a genetics about how to do text reactions, techs reactions as far as I know is okay. Extreme to sums up emoji clinic knowledgeable passive aggressive Gosh. So you talk about like meeting to experiment and being willing to figure out like how to talk to this generation. Or else you could be laughed at. Do. You believe there is correlation between Jazzy e canceled culture and increased fear of speaking incorrectly to this group. One, hundred percent I think was this year has come an increased fear of becoming canceled on social media especially when many brands? Acted incorrectly where brands who had never thought about how they would engage in a political discussion were suddenly forced to do so and many just didn't adapt fast enough although some bid and somewhere applauded for it by Giannis. I'd be curious your thoughts around the need for companies to be transparent. On either how they're making their money or how much money they're making Jesse's very perceptive of the brands that they buy from that they shot from. And also the places that they want to work at, and so they're very value driven around human rights and environment and Political reform in education was that brand new to figure out what they stand for live by do think brands are stay out of that discussion and not have standing not having the stanzas taking this stance not having stance means you don't care about these steaks. If, you really want to appeal to a wide range of Gypsies figure out what your values are and live by it. Talk about it makes that part of your brand. Lean into it and make that part of your brand marketing strategy but don't jump from Valley to Valley really quickly just because it is trendy. Jesse's will see right through that one thing that people often talk about like John's really good at figuring out how to make money on their own by the things I want at a younger age is relying on parents would love to hear your thoughts on money and work as category if he just going to be a future. Workers more. Project based the new American dream for Gen Z. is being able to work wherever we want whenever we want now joins us a side hustle generation because. From a young age, we realized that we can hustle to make money online, really break it down into like three categories of freelancing. So five or graphic design, etc. Making strategic investments building a gold in grilled store the eat pages, selling ads on the pages or flipping the mean pages buying and selling the right kind of streetwear getting 10x what you paid for, and then third category is creating content becoming a fulltime cutting creator on. Yeah. TIKTOK YOUTUBE INSTAGRAM twitch. Jesse's are realizing that. We could make money in all sorts of different ways and we also don't have to be tied to one place. We don't have to be tied to one nine to five. Alice has to expand to college to as people look on college student debt and do you WanNa. Take that on. One big question has been what is higher education going to look like as people don't always see the return on investment that no shortage of curriculum. I do think that a lot of kids benefit from higher education. I'm not sure if these prestigious colleges are exactly where they should be spending their time and their money both for opportunity costs but also debt wise. You're spending four years getting a degree that you may or may not end up having your a lifetime career end. And you have that debt that you have to pay off for the next ten years, which is crazy to me. So I think gap years are interesting I think. All these alternatives, apprentice ships internships day think that desire to try different things also expanse to post college potentially more job hopping with. So Khun Valley and millennials specifically. It is common to be an job for two years and Such to another one, I think the economy is going to become even more relevant for Jones's because it gives freedom to do. Whatever they. Want. and. So not having to sit in an office from nine am to five pm every single day and having to request paid time off if you work for yourself and if you are in the GIG economy or if you're flipping shoes or doing these side hustles or turning these side hustles into real businesses, then you might have more time to travel or become a content creator. Jesse. Really wants to be able to explore different. Categories different types of work and they need the freedom to do it. Let's also talk about shopping like what luxury even me now streetwear can be very, very expensive. Black baseball hat can be very expensive. What do you think about the future of luxury? Yes. So thriftiness becoming cool and relevant again, lot of Yasser who are wealthy are stir shopping and they're showing their thrift halls but like that value needed for content like it better be good value per second that also extending to actual purchases value is. But so as convenience and so as staying on trend. To a certain extent jazzy is voting with their dollars. But. There's always a convenience factor that also comes into play. And so brands like Boohoo and Shane are really relevant with. And really popping off Gen Z. because of the fast fashion nature of it. I get these ads from Shane in. It's like ten dollars for like a sweater. This is crazy. Where's this even from but will you ever grow up and then say okay I'm now cool paying six hundred dollars fraud slaughter not about slaughter but a sweatshirt. I think that the future of fashion is going to be a mix. It's going to be a mix in my opinion of like people being able to put together things that they buy at the thrift store combined with the latest off white shoes, the latest yeezy shoes but that's not that different like millennials also spent a lot on a purse or a belt same thing ripen you get embarrassed to wear like cheap closed is millennia. I'm called doing it. which I think is becoming less of a thing. You don't get shamed for wearing cheap quotes, but also just hear your thoughts overall on how shopping behaviors change. How do you make shopping fun. In regards to shopping. There's more stores doing pop ups and doing these limited edition or like time based activation that are really cool. Really relevant to lower these. To comment, try out the products take some cool photos. You're seeing a lot of direct to consumer brands making pop up stores or even just getting brick and mortar more as a marketing expense as opposed to a place to drive sales, which is very interesting. There's obviously a massive paradigm shifts there when you see these. Consumer brands that are backed by VC firms, they're spending the capital. that. They otherwise would have spent on ads to do in person activation because they realized that having people be able to tangibly see something touch something is still just as impactful as being able to order stuff online. So, brick and mortar still matters does obviously lots of ways to make your brand fun and interactive. For. Jesse third places are all digital, which makes sense. It's fortnight it's discord it's house party. It's twitch. It's even absolute squad. Those are the places where are making new friends they're hanging out with old friends. So gone are the days where all of your best friends have to be within a mile of you. You can have a best friend who is four thousand miles from you could still have as intimate of action as someone who is a block away from you and only the Internet has made this possible for us and technology has made this a lot easier for us to make friends with people who are also interested in gaming or fashion or basketball. Really, as Nietzsche's you want to go when you're finding funds, how much of it is people who like the same influencers the same brands? How much of it is interest? Faith has that change? How do you even go about finding your tribe online jetties are finding their tribes through have been able to search in specific hashtags or specific rooms of people who are interested in same thing's going into sub read. It's that celebrated leading to. Discord Community of people who came from read it to wanting to check in a room. So there's lots of Jesse's who are tweeting a list of their favorite influencers and in that tweet it includes hey, if you're also interested in. Certain influencers name DM me and will agitate group chat so. Brands influencers, they all fall under interest snow like that is an interest. This is the Modern Day facebook pages. You're co-signing it by buying the Merch by tweeting about it by making stand pages on twitter and Instagram I'm curious because I look at trends that are happening in developing countries, civically China Southeast Asia, and they're very very mobile I. Even older generations are mobile I there. And I think that has led to the development of more things like the super model where you have one out dismal things. Do you think jazzy would be more receptive to something like that versus older generations in the Western world seem to prefer for now still one out that does one thing. For this generation were optimizing for convenience and so if things are bundled together de Souza's time and I. Think that's really important for Gen Z. when you are taps do the same thing. Yeah. I mean were consumed by so many notifications so many products everyday. So many apps every day so much content to consume. that. I do think that there is going to be a massive bundling of things. It's going to be really tricky to get right but we already seeing a lot of bundling happening for instagram including rails, commerce shopping, etc that they would not have done five years ago even three years ago they wanted separate for each kind of function because. That's how he thought about APPS I. WanNa talk about texting as a potential new channel more and more when I'm shopping on a site and getting a tax. That gives me a discount code if I purchase it right away or tells me when something's being shipped and you also hear about jazzy not opening email talk about texting as a channels texting is now becoming a replacement for email but does that mean that texting is actually becoming less personal of a communication format now that advertisers and brands are texting US yes? Oh, as that. Do you see the same issues as email where you're gonNA WANNA filter the stuff out eventually hundred percent. Once we start getting bombarded, we're going to become more selective or a new medium will become more relevant for. s shouldn't be our email inbox because it's weird, right? You can do far less on attacks on email and it's actually much more invasive I. Barely even give people my number let alone companies my number. But then at the same time when I received as tax, they definitely work on me at I do click an and I sometimes do complete that purchase I guess it's for the brains that you really really really really love if they're texting you, you don't feel a sense of invasion. Now. You only feel comfortable for that with very select brands that you're a huge fan of where you want to get something launched. You WanNa get alerted before it goes out to the public. You can use SMS as a way to facilitate that intimacy between a brand or influence or end an individual dealing with two way communication. For some sort of value whether it's discounts whether it's getting something exclusive, the others can't get or we'll get later on. So your Super Fan of those brands. Thank you so much. It's so much chatting about Jesse and I will be much more self aware. Now, the next time I texted with ANYWHO. G.

Jesse instagram Tiktok Youtube twitter Jen z Emoji CEO Chamberlain BOOMER Connie Chan Jansy Weisberg Monroe Jets John New York Times Pushkin Industries
Real Estate in a Pandemic: Renters and Landlords (Part 2)

a16z

31:20 min | 1 year ago

Real Estate in a Pandemic: Renters and Landlords (Part 2)

"Hi and welcome to the A sixteen Z podcast I'm Lauren Monroe. This episode is the second in a two part series that examines pandemics impact on real estate. Part one focused on prospective home buyers. And existing homeowners while this episode part to address renters and landlords. The conversation features a sixteen Z General Partner Connie Chan. WHO's experienced as a landlord? Herself has fueled her interest in residential real estate and technology. Professor Richard Green the director of USC's set of real estate. And edina Hefetz CEO Debbie homes a company that allows people to build up equity while renting a home with the option to eventually buy it. We begin with the pressures on printers and the uncertainty run federal relief measures as well as the cascading effect on mom and pop landlords. Then returned to the outlook for prices in volume in the rental market, particularly in large cities like New York and San Francisco. Finally we discussed the opportunity for attack to solve outdated and inefficient processes with renters and landlords. The first voice you hear after mine is Professor Richard Green's followed by Edina. To nearly a third of the country's forty million renters didn't make the rent payment on time in April or on twenty percent didn't make team in May. That's according to the National Multiple Me Housing Council. So can you put that in context for us? What is the norm and are these numbers to be expected given the scope of unemployment. Actually a numbers are not got for off of what normal month this so when they give that number. That's red payments of the first week of the months. So, you'd never see a hundred percent cut in the first week. You can explain that difference between the fluctuated beginning of May normal rate is based on unemployment and at big difference between April and May. Is, that are creepy. Unemployment systems hadn't dot money actually out people yet in April whereas they've actually done okay getting my May. which allow them pay the rent? And we saw this during the Gulf crisis. All people showed that they really want the red state care. And Ingrid said is exactly correct. It was actually by the end of the month. Holiest Site Delta with regard to how it tries to unemployment. Unemployment tends to be higher in renter's than dowse with homeowners call close to twenty percents on employment amongst renters end, so if people get unemployment benefits, stimulus checks if they've away to make their payment than they do and were finding is that there's this delay in when folks can actually make their payment, but ultimately they are trying to fully meet those obligations. So. Should we be then encouraged by the data or Perhaps, his coronavirus lingers and stimulus payments have gone out to expect that number of inches and able to make payments to grow. How do we think about it going forward? Well I worry about eclipse. Coming is so lease supplemental unemployment benefits spire in July. Congress has yet to pass a law. That will continue those supplemental Hammett's. If that actually happened then I think the rental sector will be really which EP- for Awhile but if Congress doesn't come back and pass something that I think we are going to face real problems for the summer this here. Yeah I'm worrying not just on the renter payment side, but potentially if you think about all the folks who are doing short term rentals before hand, who then started putting their units on market for long term rentals, and they're not getting takers. That dynamic is not getting captured in that statistic. How do you anticipate this crisis? Shaping the rental market in the short term in particular I'm interested in volume and prices. It certainly slowed down. The pipeline of new supply in two dimensions is one. If there are places that could new construction is banned. There are other places where it's going on, but with social distancing now the interesting thing is when I talked to builders. Needs apartments a month ago. They were saying it was slowing down their construction by about fifty percent. Now they figured out. How did now return to production speeds? It's quite similar to what it was before coated, but that by top of course slows down the pipeline of new supply. And the other thing is wet developers academy it's not is acquiring land right now to build on, and the reason is. Nobody knows what the price of land should be at the moment. So I think there's no way around it. You're GONNA see a slowdown in supply, amiss new stuff for the next eighteen to twenty four months for sure meaning less apply so prices should hold. What was striking to me as journal. Global Financial Crisis you look at a place like Los Angeles. which was disproportionately hit? You saw rinse fall. They fell by only about ten percent. You'd never saw big increases. They could see again. There just weren't enough units available. The other interesting dynamic. If you look at rental pricing falling already in some relief cities is that's based off a very small end, and you have to also remember where in the midst of Kobe some folks, even if they want to move out, are just not dealing with the process of moving. Evitable that as people. ARE UNEMPLOYED THEIR MIND to start moving out of places, its whole see vacancies, raw and rents all as a result of that. I think we have to get a little bit more specific. You need to be more nuance. Do I think that multifamily rent might fall? Yes, do I think that's single family? I've actually what we've seen in so flight from multifamily to single family homes during the cove period in so renton pined mental within those sectors might vary pretty significantly. It also depends on what a trigger located. Where we saw some rent softening Mary like Dallas. We actually bird seeing that at all in Atlanta. It's very supply dependent, so different Metros we're going to have different amounts of supply coming marquette. She prices hold up on the single family side on the other side. Nobody's being forced to sell their snap. Because, they have forbearance on their loan. You don't have this flood of people trying to get out and as a result of that we you know sales are down like sixty percent store listings so I think both on the existing side and the new side. There's GonNa. Be a substantial reduction of spy for awhile. But I'd be curious for us. Let's say three months goes by in. There's a wave of addiction into. There's a ton of rental that are all available nurse not attended. Demand Ben. Rental prices will probably drop if that's not the case, if stimulus continue to attic Leonard to work with their tenants, and there's a limited amount of supply of rentals. I think what will actually see an increase in demand parental in which hatred will hold my personal belief is we're seeing more demand for single family rental. It is harder than ever to get a mortgage. The average FICO of individuals who are applying for deviates significantly. We actually tracked percent of people live mortgage declines on your credit report who are applying to? And that's actually gone up pretty significantly. Since Cova has started, basically, people cannot access a mortgage, so they're starting to turn to rentals to try tax s getting into a single family home moving away from multi-family rentals. People are going to see their fight. Scores get trash. Doubt if they have forbearance on their mortgage. That's going to be fought because searchers have been told not report, that is credited. But renters who default on their leases that can be accredited. On the other side, we're seeing lenders to what letter always do. which is being gave cyclically and tighten up credit standards for getting mortgage. I think we're now in a world of us is seven sixty five builder above. Get him home, mortgage. I want to touch on point that the majority of those who lost income due the pandemic are renters rather than homeowners and renters typically have lower incomes and savings and typically job stability than homeowners to begin with so for that reason, this has been called more of a renter crisis than homeowners crisis. At the same time, federal relief efforts have thus far primarily focused on homeowners for example cares. Act gave homeowners the ability for mortgages, but the majority of renters are not covered by that. So if this is indeed impacting renters more so than homeowners why this skewed relief! Think it's important to note that. In general owners have been favored over Raptors, not just through this crisis, one of the reasons for that is homeowners vote in greater numbers renters to not only are there more owners than renters, but among those that are owners. They're more likely to go out and vote that I think as agents for a wide swath of. Land Policy Decisions we see along with subsidy policies. Only about a quarter of records for eligible for subsidy actually get one. And I think thinking about changing that balance, and how we subsidized housing would be a worthwhile thing, not just at this time of crisis is a really really hard time on a lot of consumers and we get it. No parent should have to decide to print food on the table for their kids in paying their rent and I'm a landlord, so sympathetic belittled side. I think it's important to be sympathetic attendance. Geiger and we'd love to the government. She backsaw payments and he cared that renters that be ideal. Ideal, but the government did also closed on the court systems they did encourage landlords to work with tenants accept partial payments to waive all late fees. They gave guidance that they should encourage credit. Counseling offered to pay for that. So if you choose not to pay your rent, it will ask two months. There is nothing your landlord could have dads. They couldn't in victim, but we'll stimulus check. That did go out the point that it would be used for bills. Your payments that came do including Edina Mexican point, which is in the short term of actions are on hold in many cities. It's obvious many renters are facing hardships, and thus activists and politicians are calling rent forgiveness, but landlords with mortgages are still responsible to the banks who answered to investors. So, what does that impact on landlords? So I'll do private citizen or corporate easterling applications that you got to meet. Even peppers is not paying rent now. I'm not saying we should be pushing. Tenants towards making payments are going through financially hard times, but I think there is this balance to realize that landlords donating Tom Prophets few look at prophets by landlords. Entailing thin margin hike. If you look at least at single family rentals. She openly is ninety eight percent owned by mom and POPs in. It's not the gun on it, but owns that it's individuals right. It's not wealthy corporations generally, and so there was no way in which the government can without providing some sort of a stipend. Just say hey renders. You don't have to pay. Because the owners were Kinda Tillerson's right into his fine balance between figuring out had provide relief renders, but then also recognizing that more tabby sticks cough with they couldn't get out, and that's a good point, so much of my interest in prop tech comes from land and a lot of those landlords, because it's an investment property. They're not necessarily. For those home equity loans that banks will give much more easily to an owner occupied home, so a lot of these landlords who do need that money for maintenance. They are now looking too hard money lending options just to have that bridge for that short term cash flow. I think a lot of people imagine that landlords are people who've sit on their couches. Just watching the money roll on head. It takes a lot of work to be landlords so when you're asking people to take no compensation for their work, and they don't get unemployment benefits for that. That has a lot of people along with the fact that they need to pay their insurance. They need their property taxes and they need A. Their maintenance. Sixty two percent of rental properties are owned by people for whom that is the only rental property that they. So yet the idea that you just say to a very narrow group of people that you need to bear the burden of the crisis by yourself. IN ON ITS FACE PRETTY UNFAIR It seems to me again. The best way to get this is you directly. Give the tenants the resources they need to pay and then mandate that it's used for rent, and then you say the landlords in exchange for this you're. Talking to your tenants and You're not kicking him out. You're certainly not being opportunistic. We hope of course that as we start to see things, open back up and employment bounce back and people will be able to pay their rents, but if that's not the case, and this continues or in the fall, there's another wave and tens of millions of tenants are not paying rent than. I am interested in that cascading effect and. What solutions you propose? Well this is I think we're? There's a a lot of data what happens in a recession to rent prices and people's ability to pay. So, huskies are much more volatile than rent SAR. And so rinse fall, but not that much doubt. They bounce back quite quickly as long. List for the financial crisis. We were back on our previous path about three years after I, don't WanNa extrapolate the what happened during the last session, which was a housing led recession. It's going to be what happens during this recession. What we saw during the last recession was actually quite a bit different, but during the last recession unemployment spiked, and we saw that there was a pretty high correlation with whom prices in home prices started to drop, but not to live somewhere. You are the renter you own family. Family member. We actually saw flight to rentals in. So if you actually look on a month over month basis going back almost as far as we data across the US, there are only like five to ten months littering the history of time that runs actually declined in most of them were during the recession where it stayed roughly flat, so it would save runs. Do actually tend to hold because during these times of recessions, people can actually access a mortgage into the end up turning a bit more towards mental. Invitation homes in all the major single family started during the great recession. Why because they saw this? which is rents held eaten during downturns, but now we have to get to regional differences. In Harrison, shared the places with twenty percent unemployment, which vote we're talking about here in Las, Vegas did see rent declines inland, empire of California are Rector Clarence Arizona Klein's I thought that it is Netra specific for sure. Yes, I think the last recession didn't hit unemployment in the way that this current situation is hitting. Which is why the Vegas is the place to look at because biggest employment rate of twenty percent last recession that is fair I actually recently ran a correlation between home, prices and unemployment during the last recession, and actually making of about two years where your unemployment would determine your home price two years later I agree with Richard completely. When you do look mattress civic, there could be more nuance, so this is something we have all circled around, but I want pose the question which is, do you anticipate them endemic? We'll have lasting effects on the rental market. I think ten years from now. Things will be fine, but I do think in the near term again very metro specific things could get shaken up quite a bit. For three to five years, tall buildings are gonNA have a really hard time of. I think in the absence of vaccine. I think any kind of density Brinkley for Americans is going to be. Unappealing I. Think the single family rental market makes a lot of sensitive. But I think tall buildings with elevators for next three to five years as to be a tough segment and then in ten years. You think it's GonNa Wash and People in ten years forget. What did they find? Miraculous is the world's great cities seek to overcome anything. Immediately, but ultimately I mean the all example was Tokyo's GDP was ninety wiped out war two. Japan could reorganize its economy all over the islands. What happened? It all came back Tokyo you look at Lower Manhattan. It lost. Hundred and fifty thousand jobs when they made it aftermath of nine eleven. And within six years, all of those jobs were back in lower, Manhattan. Didn't care. They need to be backs, so yeah I think ten years from now unless we have another event like this between now and then new. York will be New York. It's having since except Cisco. The other thing is marriage that important predictor of other people are owners to renters and one of the reasons that millennials are not big owners is because their marriage rate is very low relative s generation, even controlling for all they are. We have way more thirty six never been married than ever before in American history. And made this little fanciful, but I'm wondering if the pandemic is getting in the way of dating. How do people date right now? and Dr Lame Marriage even further that would have a positive impact on the REP lamarcus. The thought is. Zoom dating now everyone, does it. It's love in the time of corona mouth. My friends are starting zoom relationships. Could actually speed up marriage I'm not making that argument now, say people. who used to make word, Edina? What's your perspective? Do you anticipate them? NAMIC will have lasting effects on the rental market. If you think we're going to have a vaccine by January and you think the government is going to continue to stimulate the economy and offer straight cash to a lot of the citizens here, but I think everything will be fine, however, if you think it's going to be two years to get a vaccine anything, the government will not continue to stimulate the economy and unemployment states where it is I think it's going to be tough across the entire economy, including housing, which is the largest share of GDP right. There's no way. Way. We've twenty percent unemployment for the next two years. No vaccine, no government stimulus, and we'll share GDP doesn't get impacted. I personally think over the short term single family home rental to set up pretty well for success I agree I think any kind of rental investment property. I would probably put single family rentals at the top. Just because there's also more liquidity if you are a land Lord and you own that home, you could rent it out, but you can also sell it, and so you do have other options. For me. The issue single family rebels always been the marriage. Finish you. And, so the reason we have multifamily rental in single family owning is you've got economies of scale in property management. Single family stuff a lot of it is. Do It yourself. If the plumbing owes you either. Go to Home Depot and buy a toilet and trying to get a wins. All at yourself or you call on her. Whereas if three hundred units, you can actually have your own. Who just deals with stuff. On a daily basis. So how do you manage those sorts of Davide Day issues when you're doing single family? Do you have a plumber or Call us all that work I'd say this is the biggest challenge in that pre invitation homes American homes for never thought this was impossible. They both of what I would call very little technology were able to make it scale way the we handle it is if a maintenance request comes in. It actually gets automatically assigned to a specific category. It gets priced out. Actually gets automatically routed out to a bunch of subcontractors that we have on the ground. Those relationships takes a lot of time to build up. Because you're right, we couldn't operate otherwise because. Because, we're sending in volume in. It's automated. Pay Them within twenty four hours. They actually offer you better discounts because you're supplying them with jobs in bulk into we were able to automate a large portion of the maintenance, and then used subcontractors on the ground. A lot of younger folks don't have the patience to go through YELP and call ten different plumbers. They don't want to go through that kind of hassle. They WanNa do something like the ticketing method that Edina described. I take a photo of the thing I said it to my landlord. A work order I get in real time transparency over how it's being handled when it's being scheduled to get fixed quite a challenge. But it's something that technology can address. I think it's a good segue into the opportunity for attack. Real estate is traditionally a pretty inefficient market. Where is our opportunity for tech in the face of these challenges to the streamline processes or solve? Some of these pain points bearer, not a lot of technology companies that focus on rentals and those that do tend to focus on taking rent payments reporting rank credits so basically reporting run to the credit bureau so that they can track that report it to some extent. You can look at apartments as being like seats on an airplane. Or rooms at a hotel Sestak of capital, and you want to completely sell it. And so developing algorithms that. Maximize yield. And the problem is right now I. Don't think this Algorithm kid in the following way is, you will look at an existing Canada and you will evaluate them the same way as you evaluate a new tenant. That's a bad idea. Is it existing tenant as a track record with you and if they move out even at a strong market that's on the before on Reg CD Japan's. Do the maintenance that you have to do. And so a really good price, elasticity algorithm. That would tell landlords. What is the right rent charge given market conditions I think is a place that technology could contribute. Help! Landlords ring the most efficiency they can out of their properties. Certainly, there is no good data source for small mom pop landlords right now to figure out what to charge. They basically go on craigslist or Zillow. They look other homes in the neighborhood. There data is sometimes based on a very small number of listings and I think another problem that can help solve his helping landlords and banks understand what's behind the credit score. You know the FICO score that got hit from a one time. Medical emergency versus the FICO score that's low, because the person always overspends and always have overdraft issues should be viewed upon differently right. So how can we use tech to better measure responsibility and truly get a sense of? Is this person now going to be able to make their payments I think that's a big opportunity for software rights in many ways where we underwrite able is based on nineteen eighty S. nineteen nineties standards, even though Fannie and Freddie and others have bottles. They're using fico five that insert using a twenty year. Old Algorithms evaluate people's credit. At the end of other day, they don't believe the models. They still go back to the states and your sticks. Are Not particularly good in terms of measuring credit risk. And are really problematic and that people from non traditional backgrounds. Immigrants people of Color. Older people were very good. Credit risks don't get easy access to credit. You have large Schwab. So people largely immigrants who pay stop with cash people to pay rent every months month after month after month or good credit risks of the interesting thing. Is You pay rent every month? You don't get any credit for it, but if you default on your rent, get kicked out a victims Dan naff hurts your credit score, so there's. An asymmetry how that's done and he is similar comic model. Evaluate credit unnatural payments, going in and doing out you a much better job of predicting loan performance that if you use methods, we have right now. I would love to see a world where we used Ada, where we use modeling as a foundation for doing underwriting in all kinds of dimensions of life and I think we'd have a more inclusive world as a result of that as well as for accurate evaluation to credit. And the reason why this is important, Fico scores not just us when the person's trying to get a mortgage now those are all looking at credit reports when they decide, which tended to choose so where we found that technology has been able to really help on the rental side is one quickly assessing risks in financial services, this idea of under any models, a supplemental income about I'd say lost ten years, which is able to pull on this entire credit history NSS if they're getting interior rental situation that they set up for success or failure when I mean by that is you can on craigslist post. Two thousand dollars rent a month. Month in San Francisco. Do you want this apartment? Insulin can make a judgment whether they can afford that or not. However understanding really what your debt obligations are what your income is really what you could afford what to say from out. It's pretty hard to do as an individual. This second place is driving efficiency eastern, managing a large rental portfolio to things like for example on the maintenance side, making actress, scalpels or Trenton portfolio be offered and get some efficiencies for mapping technology automate a lot of the back end, so I'd say not a lot of Technology Mitchell industry, where most of whom are on technology is not fully penetrated it yet. But I think that's also the opportunity. Right because there is a lot of friction, there are multiple players. A lot of the processes are somewhat predictable or forseeable. And so there is a lot the technology can do. Estate, even just on payments. It's crazy. What percentage of it happens through checks or cash speaking on behalf of a small pop landlords? I used to accept rent with checks, right? My mom used to accept rent with direct bank deposits, but if you think of it from like the small landlords, science checks is not necessarily a great option. Checks can bounce. You have to go check your mailbox. You have to go to a bank or use your phone to cash since we can't rely on pay Pal van, Mo, and so forth actually not only do they have. have limits on how much money you can transfer it to your bank account every week. There's also a lot of stuff you put yourself in danger of around partial payments and other things, and now we can use mobile APPs to collect rent, and we use the same APP to chat with our tenants, so everything's in one place, and so I think there's a real need for software in this space. Even those small things around collection make a huge difference I think once people realize you don't have to go to the rental to pick up a chuck. And there are safe ways to do it online. How can you go back to the old ways right? We straight to power our entire back end. People often, and then we've automatically debit their account and literally pull them money in cursive between one is actually going towards building their equity savings in the house, and what's actually going towards us rent and the waterfall that are torn busters in depth providers, and all this completely automatically, which is something now. Ten years ago could have been done. There's Dakhla lot of technology that smooth the process, but one of the things that is just true is owning a rental property be at a multifamily building or snow, family homeless, highly capital-intensive. That's not sort of course. Rate is capital. That's generally more legacy players into what we've seen it. It's just taking longer technology and innovation for people to actually come in fully asset and be able to actually provide a rental experience. That's why ninety eight percent single family rentals are mom and POPs even largest company invitation homes. Even other block by block zone. They've. And homes, and that is the biggest company right. They own less than half a percent of the market. Twenty billion dollar enterprise value were up months before quote show. All that survey technology is new because it is capital intensive as content companies which are something masks chipped away at Foley. I think didn't raise really important point about when you have a very capital intensive industry. It's hard. I think for technology. Be transformative. Do they places where it's transformative. It's in places with relatively little physical capital, and we're ultimately can get big margins and in real estate. Getting big margins is a really really Arthur. However one counter thought though is yes. Real estate is operational capital intensive, but also much of the dynamics around real estate is created by government. Think about what percentage of mortgages are backed by the government now right so many issues around getting alone around tenant-landlord laws, these are all government instituted policies, and therefore if you look at something like an Airbnb when they can come up with a business model that unlocks either additional supply, whether it's investors or homeowners or renters, what have you that could also be a huge opportunity right when you look at any kind of sector that has so much government, intervention and shaping. Truck opportunities. There is definitely arbitrage opportunity in the space, which is why we stay very optimistic on tech. Agree on the experience. It was kind of like when they were SBA loans that were the cheapest possible loans and then London. Club came out which was. You can get a small business loan much quicker, but you're gonNA. Pay More right. We can definitely improve the customer experience on how quickly you can apply how quickly we can get a mortgage. Do People like better mortgage on the home? Purchase is the issue is out. The government subsidizes home purchases. You can get a loan for a house cheaper than you can get any asset loan. Curious you are qualifying bar which is shrinking in terms of how easy it is to qualify one hundred percent agree all for private corporations to compete on price you can compete on. Though is providing a better customer experience in opening up the housing market to a larger percentage of Americans, weather, rental or purchase side that's I'm so acutely aware of the lack of technology, the fragmentation, the value of all the data that actually is being generated, not just how much you're paying for rent, but all other kinds of things around how well that houses? BLAMING TAMED I! Think real estate. Estate Super Exciting to me because it has all those things. Strong fragmentation, which technology is generally a great solution for finding more use cases for the data that's really right now stuck in people's memories or excel spreadsheets or filing cabinets so again you also have a treasure trove of data. You have lots of financing needs, and we've talked before about how Fintech is really obvious, huge opportunity for both renters and homeowners, so I do think the need for technology, even just to do. Our everyday business is their great well. Thanks for joining us on the CD podcast. Thank you, thank you.

Edina Professor Richard Green Congress San Francisco craigslist New York Gulf Connie Chan National Multiple Me Housing C Lauren Monroe Ingrid Hammett General Partner Hefetz Dallas
Remote Work and Our New Reality

a16z

19:34 min | 1 year ago

Remote Work and Our New Reality

"The content here is for informational purposes. Only should not be taken as legal business tax or investment advice or be used to evaluate any investment or security and is not directed at any investors or potential investors in any A16 Z. Fund for more details. Please see a sixteen dot com slash disclosures. Hi and welcome to the PODCAST. I'm Lauren Monroe. And today we're talking about the rise of remote work in virtual networking especially among knowledge workers amid the spread of the virus for this quick pulse check. I'm joined all remotely of course by General Partners Connie Chan and David Ula Bitch to talk about the platforms powering. This homebound workforce creative new use cases for videoconferencing in streaming from education to therapy and whether remote work and online events is the new normal. The conversation begins with Connie describing. How for many of these video conferencing tools the line between professional and social. Use is already blurring. People are trying to use existing new tools for a variety of things. I mean even teenagers who want to interact are using zoom to hang out with each other so I think the use case is very wildly if you're having a long conversation and both people are using apple products face diamonds. Fantastic if you are doing a small group setting where it's the same repeat users who might be more relevant if you are hosting a large event where a lot of the audience members are trying to look for networking opportunities around the world has a solution for that one. You mentioned zoom has really risen through the ranks gets the third popular APP in the APP store at the moment. Why do you think zoom has been so emergent? I think one of the reasons him has sort of broken out is that they have observed all the friction that all video conferencing platforms have had in the past where it's hard to get account. It's hard to set up. It's hard to invite people to people have less patients. These days for products that have too much friction to on boarding. You know. There's always sort of the joke of conference. 'cause like hey who just joined the line or like who? Are you hate to be getting the right lane? Zoom fixed. Almost all of these usability issues and I'd say there's also little moments of user delight right I think virtual backgrounds have been one of the ways that people are breaking the ice or making conversations more friendly when they're on Zim for those listening. It's a way that you can completely off you skate. Your background and make it. Look as if you're an a green room and put any photo in the back and I think people underestimate the amount of technology that's behind the scenes. They're running a global network. They're carrying hundreds of thousands of minutes of calls at any given time those infrastructure that scaling too dramatic degree. And that's really hard to deal and they've spent a lot of time over the last few years. They've grown up as a company to build a reliable high quality. Hi Fidelity this. That's why broken out tier point David. This is new ground as millions of people are flooding these online platforms. We've already seen some outages with tools like Microsoft team last week several gaming platforms have had outages over the past week or so including Nintendo switch xbox and discord so there is some trepidation among people that all of us working and learning from home is straining that underlying infrastructure of the Internet. And that's something that particular impact home. Networks what are the limitations of some of these cleberation tools? Well I we all know. A debt of gratitude network operators that are running the global infrastructure. They're adding capacity. That are making sure that the quote unquote the pipes are not getting too full. That is not an easy job in these are the people that are working and they're probably working from home right now but they're working tirelessly as somebody who comes from an infrastructure operations background. I always think it's good to give a shout out to those people that are generally think. Listen until there's a problem a lot of people don't recognize their actual people who are keeping your running totally an adding capacity and re-routing things and reprioritising traffic. Were all the beneficiaries of that for all of us in our from home. Rodley what you end up. Seeing those companies invest in infrastructure. The ones that know how to scale and have planned for sort of elastic capacity. And when you're seeing these platforms teams had an outage and things like that. These are platforms that have been sort of cut and paste put together over the years from different products from legacy products and when you're building on top of infrastructure legacy technology stack legacy video codex. It's very hard able to scale up and deliver the kind of experience people are expecting so you are seeing new technologies like run. The world and company called tandem as well. That's the way to do real time. Water Cooler conversations when you're not doing a scheduled meeting and companies like zoom that are really taking advantage of this opportunity. So it's one thing to have these tools that help us work in small teams. It's another thing when these events get at a much larger scale many many conferences festivals sporting events have been canceled response to the pandemic. What are some of the promising alternatives? You're seeing to physical events. I think virtual conferences is brave new world that we're all going to start exploring and realized that there's actually a lot of benefits in addition to being able to access it from anywhere from your phone or your laptop and not needing to pay for travel hotels for airfare and so forth. There's also just a lot more engagement that can happen in an online context. The quite frankly is easier in many ways than the offline in real life version. So think about when you go to a conference and that awkward moment during cocktail hour. And you're not sure who to approach. You're not sure how to break into that conversation or even who? You should be meeting with me. In an online context now people can be chatting with other folks but how full context of who they are. Why they're there who they're looking to me and so forth and platforms can do better matching so you are making sure every minute is a good use of time. Always look for silver linings and moment of crisis dramatic change. And you know as an introvert. I think this is golden moment. There's a lot of people that don't get an opportunity to speak up. That don't have an opportunity to participate or that. The conversation get steered into a certain direction. Just because there's a lot of voices in a room does somebody who is often on panels and somebody who's listening to people that are on panels. I think panels are the lowest -delity form of communication. I've loved the idea that an online conference you can. Maybe suggest questions do a lot more q? And a. You can help prepare the panel. Much better and people can better socializing surface questions. You don't just have a moderator trended side what's interesting there's so many opportunities in an online format through all this different communication mediums to just cultivate and curate. A much better experience the way that you connect with someone can be through video. It can be through audio. It can be through text and by allowing the various options you also attract different types of personalities that otherwise would have been to intimidate it to go to a conference and so what's interesting is when you see a lot of these conferences switch online format not only do more people join because quite frankly. The Bar and ten is much lower but more people participate. Because they're not so afraid to chat in an online chat room. The courage required to do that is a lot lower than it is to go speak to someone in real life not to mention that can be recorded and chronicle so that somebody who maybe can't make it in real time to go catch up later there's an auto chronicling auto documenting and archiving capability. There's inherent that most conferences. Just opt out because of the cost or complexity and I think that's really powerful because it means that especially when you pair it with where we are with automatic transcription of voice it allows people really consume the information. Whatever format works best for them? It makes it much more accessible to whatever prevents them from engaging not just as an introvert but as somebody who also likes to participate sometimes a little bit more voyeuristic events were dive into us. Full Two day conference session. It's perfect for people like me and I think there's a lot of people don't feel the same way so as the corona virus has spread. We've seen people get creative with ways to keep connected. What other APPS are you seeing on the rise? Are you seeing any particularly creative? Use Cases Education. I think is a very big one. Parents not only need to figure out how to entertain and how to occupy the children but they wanna make sure that it's still a good use of time and educational by the V. One of course you watch streaming video of your teacher and you're basically watching this person on a screen versus seeing them in real life. But I think the V. Two of Education of going to incorporate a lot more different types of media such that the actual course content could possibly be even better or more engaging so imagine for example an online coding class. That is teaching children how to program. But it's not just showing you the teachers face and having the feature talk you three or workbook or through your program but actually recreating something. That's half video game half problem set and having a teacher talk you through the as you go into these different types of verticals of curriculum. I think the V. Two of online education is going to go beyond just video streaming and be really a mixture of video streaming plus animation a. r. or really interactive ways to learn. So I think there will be a lot of new experiments that happened in distance learning there. Startups out there like out school. The allow all kinds of parents to find teachers who are teaching variety of courses and I think existing teacher student relationships are going to use things like zoom or other new platforms that focus on online education. Now that my own child is at home. I'm seeing that first hand. I see my own daughter. You know taking art classes presume. Having her piano class for face time. I know that there's an artist in San Francisco Wendy macnaughton and she's now been doing these free drawing classes for kids using instagram live. I think yesterday she did a class and there were almost a thousand kids that were in this class doing drawing. It's great for the parents. You need to be working less their kid pay attention to somebody who's giving instruction unless apparently be decent work while they're at home the kids. This online format. Steles very very effective. Teachers are still able to see what the kids are doing. Give real time feedback and other use case I've noticed is online tools that facilitate virtual therapy sessions as well right. I think there's a lot of really interesting use cases you know I wouldn't say I'm a yoga practitioner but I have many friends who are probably should be but one of the things that they lament. Is that classen spell up. But now he's classes have moved to zoom. And you can do it from home on your Yoga Mat now. The classes never felt by definition. And so that's really a transformative shift one other interesting trend. I've seen is third party video conferencing atoms so apps like CRISP CRISP WITH A K. Which cancels out background noise like typing or rappers? There's muzzle which silences pop up notifications during screen sharing. Give use both of them. One thing that sort of amusing as I used to work at Cisco which has a large collaboration businessman's Webex. And maybe I'm more used to always on videoconference. Call the constant videoing. But I think for a Lotta people to new experience in their learning all kinds of things you need to be cognizant on your cameras on even if you think cameras off. It's probably on easy to be much more aware whether you're on mute whether you're connected and there's a certain sort of video conferencing hygiene that comes along with that. I'm a big believer leaving the video camera on. I think it keeps you more engaged in paying attention. Isn't that one of the features of Tanum in that? It shows which APPS you're on as you're collaborating with coworkers. Totally than they do this. Very privacy aware way you can disable it they show you what application you're using and what your co workers are using and so what's cool is. I can see. Hey Connie's and a google doc. If I have permission to Iraq I can actually see which file is. Unless they don't want to collaborate with her I can just click on it and he jumped into that Google doc because Google docs multi player by default. We don't have to screen share. We don't have to even have a video on. We're just grab reading and talking. It's sort of like having somebody at the desk next to you and be looking at the same file than if you're busy and can jump into a focus mail either permanently or for a period of time and so they're really focused on the ability to create this Virtual office environment. That's both not distracting but also creates a level of closeness and intimacy with your co workers. You can still feel that connection and say. Hey how's your day going or what are you up to or eating lunch right. We're experimenting using these platforms to even just hang out with each other right like to David's point. Making sure people don't feel lonely during this time. Self Quarantine is really important and so there are teens in our firm my own team included. Where once or twice a week we will have an hour. Set aside where we're all online. We're not allowed to talk about work and we're eating lunch together and that's funny. Because years ago I talked about how in China live streaming for eating was a thing and everyone used to make fun of me for that but we are now doing it here right or it using video platforms to eat lunch with each other to hang out with each other well and my team. We've been eating lunch together. Virtually more than we were when we were actually physically in the office. It's actually upping our sociability so in addition to these online collaboration video conferencing tools some other categories of companies that are seeing somewhat of a bump as we become increasingly homebound. Some of them are obvious like streaming services delivery services like instant heart but are there other examples of categories of companies that you're seeing more use cases of gaming and entertainment is a very big one. Roadblocks I can only imagine how many kids are now wanting to play all the time because roadblocks is not just a one way game where you're playing against the computer playing with other kids. You're playing with your friends and so a lot of children. This is their way of maintaining those relationships. In David. You can speak to that right. You just installed a X. Box I did. I never thought as a Gamer. I realized I'm GonNa be home alone. I'm up in the mountains so I bought an xbox one. I played a little bit. I think I still more of a programmer than a Gamer. But I certainly have become a Gamer as a result of this and whether that endures I would say like work from home time. We'll tell David. Have you noticed later macro trends? There's certainly companies that facilitate more collaboration in terms of coordination's whether it's task management whether it's okay ours is whole set of tools that I think are going to see a lot more usage in the workplace. It's things like Asana where people are using more shared task managers across teams instead of just doing their daily old are moving. Some of these team huddles online company called worked for the lines. Goals across teams are very transparent. Way they're seeing a lot more interested in people saying hey. How do I communicate what's important to people and let them know how we're doing against our goals and there will be a whole trend of applications that create more organizational transparency? So that people understand what they're working on why they're working on it and how they're doing against their goals and one of the other use cases now that's really interesting telehealth and telemedicine which is video conference call with either a nurse practitioner nurse or a doctor. It's much more efficient. It's much safer for on the practitioners and the emergency medical professionals. I think as a consequence of all this the hell health would become a norm instead of just something that was maybe a little over promise and under deliver now. I think it'll become totally mainstream. Common things are seeing here. Are that when you switch things to this online digital communication format. Not only are they cheaper. They save more time but they also can in many cases up the quality of care or teaching that you would otherwise receive right so in the teaching context. When you have one teacher teaching thousands you can afford to get one of the most amazing teachers there to create that course and same thing when it's in medicine if there are not enough doctors in that particular city you now can access doctors from all over the world and unlocking a big supply of service providers whether it's teachers doctors therapists and so forth. What it does is it not only ups the quality of what you can. Typically access does that simultaneously with lowering the cost. I want to talk about the longer term impact. This is likely not short-lived. Even before the cranberries beets spread a workforce was already becoming more distributed. Says more and more people are likely go remote in the coming months for work for school. How do you see this? Pandemic Shaping the workforce in the future. Do you think that remote work will become the new normal one thing I'd say certain. Is that the method. There's so many jobs that quote unquote are not possibly on remote fluids and shattered because people that are doing jobs that when they were hired into it they were told that it was not possible to successfully do the job remote and proven that. That's not true. There's just a tremendous number of jobs that people can't give him out. It's an unfortunate but an interesting test case in that. As you noted most people probably. Aren't that comfortable videoconferencing into work. But with this scenario many are being forced to once people realize that these tools are available and that they're someone intuitive and easy to use. I wonder if this is the beginning of a more permanent shift. I think a lot of people like office. They have like the separation of home life and Work Life. And so there's a lot of people that will be very happy to get back to the office but they're certainly going to be an enduring trend. I would have to imagine where people wanna live where they want to live and work at the companies. They WANNA work at even if those two things are not co located. And certainly this is showing. That's very possible for the vast majority of professional use cases right. It's still too early to call whether or not consumers prefer working at home or in a physical office right next to their colleagues I think distributed teams especially teams that have global workforce's are going to realize maybe they don't have to do all of their hiring in a very small radius around the office. You're all three of us are in three separate cities and three separate rams all recording this podcast digitally using digital podcasting software. That's delivered as a service and so I think people will find that. There is a tool for almost every use case that they have. And you know I think if I had asked you act months ago. Hey we start recording. Podcast all remote distributed you. I would have said No. That's not gonNa be good. It's not gonNA work out okay. But of course it's working out fine the other thing I would mention is. We don't know how long this particular phase is going to. Last and as a lot of entrepreneurs are seeing these opportunities. They're seeing these gaps in existing products. I think there's GonNa be more innovation in the space. Just think about the possibilities when you add things like A. Are you know you can have a fashion show where things are coming to life or you can look at an item and save it for later right? There's all kinds of things that you can do once you overlay a digital screen in front of a real life of that so inevitably. I think that means you're going to get better product serving this particular use case to you know if you think about video streaming as a new browser what are all the extensions are going to need. What are all the different destination websites that are going to have to be built? And I think it's an open question for some of these verticals whether or not it's a horizontal platform that wins or whether it's a vertical platform that wins great. Well thank you so much for joining us on the sixteenth. Podcast thank you.

David Ula Connie Chan google apple Lauren Monroe Microsoft Nintendo Zim Iraq Cisco Webex Wendy macnaughton instagram
Online Learning and the Ed Tech Debate

a16z

48:52 min | 1 year ago

Online Learning and the Ed Tech Debate

"Hi and welcome to the Sixteen Z podcast. I'm more in Monroe and today's episode is all about education and technology a topic. That's especially top of mind students in much of the country a return to school this week virtually. Much of the discussion has been in the context cockbain and safety, but there's greater debate around Ed text potential that's been decades in the making. In this episode, ACC General Partner Connie Chan and I are joined bay editors and experts. Josh Kim the director of online programs and strategy at the department. Center for the advancement of learning his most recent book learning innovation and the Future of higher education was published earlier this year and David Deming professor of Education and economics at the Harvard Kennedy School and the Harvard Graduate School of Education. We explore the complicated issue of education from of angles can the quality of online learning stack up to that of an in person education? What improvements have we seen over the past decade and what improvements are we likely to see this fall compared to the Cova scramble last spring and. Might this moment be the push we need for educators and technologists sometimes at odds to collaborate more closely. The first voice who here after mind is Josh followed by Connie then David? So. Much of the discourse attack online education is often posed any stark terms. Much of the discussion seems to be on the education was abject failure in the spring. Now, kids are doomed to lose another year if we don't go back and person so I think what I'd like to post the group is what are some of the most common misconceptions you see in the discourse around online education? Well first of all, we didn't really have online education in the spring, right? That wasn't anything that any of us who've been in online education for a long time would recognize his minded Asian. So I think we I have to completely move away from. Making any conclusions about online education from this emergency pivot to learning to cove it? Right in and out argued that we should also make sure that we aren't just judging the concept of online education by what we see today. There's so much potential for further innovation around the platform around the median that I. Think we just don't see. We already seen other countries around the world. I think one common misconception is more of a conflicting of two things. One is the medium by which education happens is it online or in person or some mix of the two, and in the pedagogical approach lecture base is a discussion based. How much of it is students facing? What is the size of the class? What in taught in what way I think what you see for most of the brief history online education is the classes that are online tend to be a one type that is often quite different than lacey, Burson until people say online education, they often have this idea. Maybe it's superstar lecturing. Broadcast all over the web or it's a for profit college that people perceive as being predatory on some types of students or whatever. But there's nothing that is intrinsic about online. It makes it better worse at its core online is a mode of delivery for education that has tremendous potential to reach people that couldn't be reached with person education models with far better curriculum. Than They could've afforded potentially potentially although I don't think that's a guarantee I think we should get into that I. think there's a question of whether it gives the education can be better and under what conditions is true that you see a lot of education innovators in the online space but a lot of what they're doing could just as easily be done in. Earth. What I would like to hear his more discussion of what should education look like, and then we decide whether it's easiest best to deliver it online versus in person rather than debating about online merson person only later talking about or actually teaching at Howard. I agree that. One of the challenges we have when we talk about all this definitions. People often talk about online education when they're talking about a lot of different things and very different things and I think to that point some people are thinking of this as strictly k. through twelve k. through college and reality. You can also clump in things like masterclass things like lifelong learning things like worker training things like extra curricular classes have been already online while before cove it. So one of the confusion too often here is to conflate online education at scale, which kind of started with nukes and now have moved onto to what? Does what addicts does with what's been going on with online education. Now, for a couple of decades, which it looks very different than that, which is about very small classes. Of active learning lots of engagement between students and faculty a lot of work with instructional designers they happen to be in the same medium. They happened to be education that done with technology, but they're completely different things. Do you mention the precedent of mooks which is massive online courses? So those have been hyped for a decade or so and have had limited success in disrupting education it's pretty commonly agreed. So what has changed? Why do you see this newfound optimism? Now? What specifically are we seeing that we haven't seen in the past? I? Think you judge most historically it's done really targeted for college students and Post College. Graduates. And I think the effectiveness of books varies dramatically based off the age group and the kind of content you're trying to teach it's important point to make which is online education is not optimal for every subject where every learner and so I think we can. Get into bit more need grady. We're talking about how it translates for younger kids older kids I kids right kids who are boy you hear about them preferring online school. It really just ranges on the type of student in the age range and I understand why in the college bracketed hasn't necessarily taken off there's so many other things that a college provides the student and oftentimes the students want to be on campus they do get different kinds of credentials with university. But if you take that concept of a very large classroom and you target a different age group with different kinds of content, the value proposition could actually be quite different. So for example, if I was teaching a singing class. And I opened it up to one thousand students and because I had that many students, the prices were very affordable or could even be. One could argue that that potentially could work. So a lot of criticism are on mooks has been I think a function of the age group they targeted and the type of content they tried to deliver. That's a good point to bring up in that many educators have been skeptical of Allen Learning to date because. It's difficult to run say discussion based courses or lab work in group work can pose challenges. David, you've noted that what's called high dosage tutoring lets small groups meeting frequently has been shown to be one of the most effective ways to improve learning in addition to individualized feedback. So I guess the question is can ed tech deliver this kind of personalized education that traditional education can. I, think it definitely can I think the question is whether it can do so at lower costs and to reach people who would be able to be Rachel it's an access question in a cost question I would put. Toward one end of spectrum where the extremists just a lecture you post online or just like a talk or content that just online you know somewhere along, you can find the very best lecture on the principles of microeconomics by the very best explainer of those principles and you can watch it and that's something that's why be miserable and the marginal cost of providing that to another person. Once he produced at zero and so you put it online and as many people can access is possible but there's absolutely no personal at all everyone's watching the same lecture. and. That's good for some people. But most people learned through some element of personalization meeting people where they are addressing specific Martin's motivating them to care and show up to class and turning assignments and stay on task when things get difficult and that's the hard work of education and that doesn't scale as easily as the mood or the online lecture, and so I think the question is whether Ed tech and deliberate that a lower and I think it's possible. I think it's much harder than just creating great content. And putting it up on the web and charging very small and I. think that's basically why mooks haven't revolutionized market because that's not really what education's education is not just content. It's also engagement and personalization. It's Peer Group. It's the feedback there are start up. So there are trying to tackle that that are creating these small breakout groups for any of these large topics the I think those are very promising I just think that that's where education learning really needs to go is some combination of personalization and scale. It is a hard problem and the content has to be really good so that there's higher completion rates than what we have. Currently I think a lot of people are realizing that content can be improved as with multimedia can use interactive hand gesture even to make sure the kids stay engaged finish the class. The trickiness is going to be how it feels at the end of the day different than a youtube video. I think a lot of it still comes down to how to design it in a way that will have a motivating factor for the student to go seek it out and complete it. Are there types of subjects that lend themselves better to an online curriculum versus in person. So I think about this is my daughter's are arising junior, and now going to be rising Braxton or I see the future dying, which I see benefits and risks is that the masters level and it's Masters degrees at scale. Basically low cost. Hopefully high quality masters degrees, scale we. With I- MBA is he'd be you bear low-cost Mba Georgia tech computer science, and basically these are masters degrees that will not supplant NBA's or computer science degrees from elite institutions and not supplant the experience you get when you come to campus in can hang out with great faculty like David There's no way to replace that intimate experience were you're with that cohort and had that experience that's priceless but most masters degrees now don't provide that my younger. Daughter wants me no entry turn. She asked educators to get a good job. I'm not convinced that she needs to go to a very expensive Bassin's program. I think that she could actually do fine with masters program that is low cost more at scale where she gets the content appeared she coached and mentored by maybe not a faculty member. So I think it'd be wonderful if you could become a teacher with a master's degree without all that debt. Think there's enormous potential here can't Josh. When you talk about the Masters Program, it really makes me think a lot of it comes down to credentials to right and so Kenya use technology to allow more people to get those credentials in a cheaper way. And can use technology to also have new signals that go beyond just the credential certificate like if your daughter took classes online, theoretically whatever program supplied that service when know her grades were no, her scores were no her performance. There's a lot of opportunity I. Thank in helping people get those credentials and more affordable way. On the downside colleges and universities have used masters degrees to support their money losing undergraduate programs. Prison discounting is so high now that they really need these masters degrees which have grown much more quickly than undergraduate degrees to balance the books. So what we're going to see us for middle tiered schools or schools without elite brands, their high cost masters degrees are going to become less and less tenable as top rentals bring out these degrees as well as non degree credentials, and in addition, there's other outside forces affecting right like losing international students this year. Or massive state budget cuts that we haven't seen the consequences of yet. So you're moving into the economics part of the discussion. And it's something that has been in the news in that many college graduates star graduating with debt. It's also popped up in younger age groups more recently as many upper income families are trying to create their own pod schools. It's this question of the economics of education and whether it may be turned into some kind of a luxury. Good. Data's talked about this, what we have to guard against this. Bundled experienced Mike it's got that it doesn't just become the province for the wealthiest the most privilege and very a worrying and disturbing about how we're moving in this direction in this country this is where the tech community really can't talk on in quality concentration walls and hold schools like where David and I are where there's more people from the top one percent and the bottom two thirds. Right. So Kind Kinda you've talked about how you think tech maybe this kind of great equalizer right with this one too many model. It can provide access to the best instructors, any location without the hefty by an of a year of tuition at Harvard. But David, you've also hypothesized. On campus learning will become this increasingly important quality differentiator. So it may become a luxury good that only students with means can afford. How can we assess that fuzzy question of quality can island location provide that same level and does attack pose the potential solution? To the economic inequality. I think it's very important to distinguish between different types of education than have different purposes. Josh mentioned these Masters degrees. There's other things like coating boot camps and other innovations out there on the Ad Tech Space and I think the ones that you see achieving success and will continue to be successful are the ones that a offer something specific that people are looking for it not they want and they're going for it and be sort of run assuming that the people who enroll in them have a set of basic. Whatever you WANNA call them twenty first century skills. They're good problem solvers. They're self starters. They understand that a working team it can think abstractly, etc and I think all of those things are also learned in school and are often learned in college for your program or in high school, and that's exactly the kind of thing that the public east to be subsidizing because no company wants to subsidize you to go learn something that's useful everywhere they want to subsidize you to learn something that's useful for the job you're doing for them. But those skills are incredibly important for succeeding in the modern workplace. And my worry is that all of the budget cuts and other things that Josh mentioned are going to cut to the bone in terms of the really core important skills that education is teaching I do think those things can be taught online i. don't think it can only be done in person, but I also think the in person experience particularly at public flagship universities and mid tier. Universities is much more successful than people give it credit for it provides a very high quality education in terms of future earnings at relatively low cost. And many of the schools that educate our nation students are not the ones that are written about times where you see climbing walls lazy rivers, an incredibly lavish extracurricular things that detract from the core purpose of education. They're actually pretty lean organizations that do a lot of teaching provide a lot of students support without spending much money. and. They're about to get hit terribly by budget cuts Connie mentioned it. So to me I think attack and this general enterprise will all succeed much more when we as public tax days subsidize those colleges to do their thing and then we lead the market you all the extra stuff which I think it will do better than our public universities that's how I would do it if I could like puppet master and cutting going back to David's point there's not a lot of history in the valley of being champions for. Funding. Public Education Post Secondary Education. In fact if you look at the rhetoric, it's often not been so I would say you extent that. Academics, fields are comfortable and we're actually partners and collaborators with the of the funding entity. I think it's very important gauge. It's exactly right crisis. We have now in higher education, it's about defunding state level of post-secondary education. There's no technological silver bullet point taken is funding the biggest problem in your mind then. I think there's all. Certian. Entrenched challenges that higher in stations, which we face as a kind of review teaches about all the gray inequality. These are structured vision that we have to. Can I draw analogy. So you think about some of the most successful startups in Silicon Valley companies, almost all of them have relied on public infrastructure in some way. So there is no uber without public roads that work and get people from two point be reliably and we you that's an obvious point but many many countries that doesn't exist. There's not a tax base to fund roads with aren't any potholes in the eighty consummates Cetera, and there's many other examples like that. We need public infrastructure for private enterprise sixty. And that's our physical infrastructure but education is our human infrastructure. And every Ed Tech Startup will succeed better when we have more self directed learners as a a slime cool of people who are interested and that's what public education does and if we don't invest in it as a society, we're eating our core. Yeah. No I totally agree and and I know teachers are bearing a good chunk of the brunt and you know I hear stories of a lot of teachers getting hired away for private education or for basically teaching small pods of children's done. So I do think the way our public school system and the resources they have today are GonNa look very different in a year Issued good discussion to have. The reputation of intact amongst academics and within higher ed it's not great professors built. Feel that great about the tech industry why do you think that is? What you often hear from the industry with large is that we're GonNa just robbed higher education that you guys are bloated your expensive. If you've been doing away, you have to pivot after all and it really does not match the realities on the ground. Most education is public forty percent of students go to community colleges. There's a real mismatch and and I think often our communities are talking past each other and to think acknowledged though that there are people going. To College is graduating taking on a ton of debt unable to find good jobs and though also quality of teaching drastically within a university varies by your professor. So it's really hard to say that education is fine as is I would say there's still lots of low hanging fruit and ways to improve it, and it's not even just improving the status quo also getting more students in the door again that figuring out the access question, right? How do we incent? More students to even go to community college, is there a way that we can either drop the prices even further using technology or can we make the classes happen at the right schedule? So the kids can still have a fulltime daytime job to support his family but still take classes at night. Community. College has been leading the fight into education. The reality is known sectors had larger declines public funding than community colleges. Certainly, that's a huge problem that theoretically if you had every community college course available online to any student at any community college in the country. For every single quarter then it's hard to argue that more students wouldn't be taking more classes. I'm also really curious what everyone thinks about you start hearing these rumors of. Schools potentially doing away with some standardized testing in terms of emissions. And curious if there will need to be new signals and will not need to require attack. I think it's great that we're getting of them. SAT's they're somewhat predictive of first year success not predictive of college exists ball and they're highly correlated with all sorts of advantages. The more remove away from standardized test, which really only benefit you will be privileged. The better we would be and you know I think part of that is. Schools like the school abatement I work at. We have to really ask for sounds are there ways that we can expand opportunity is morally defensible anymore to a success by air scares me. What role can actually played in creating opportunity by growing. But Dancer Question I'm also getting rid of those tests. Is there a tech potential solution to still provide some kind of unbiased way to evaluate students? I don't think it's possible to answer this question in a vacuum because it all depends on what replaces the test is standardized tests are certainly biased but are they more or? Less bias than what they replace is the question, and if you suddenly continue to do culture missions without a test, are people with privileged going to find other ways to signal that and to get editing missions game. Yes they are, and so the question is, is this the most direct way which even the goal is to me like getting rid of the sat in the act? Is probably not by itself going to make a dent in this problem my preferred solution would be if we just think colleges lot you more diverse, they should just admit a more diverse class and set. That is the final goal rather than this quite indirect solution of changing which criteria can can't used for mission. Right, in other words, if you have a goal which is diversity directly achieved that goal. Deciding who you admit. And worry less about disparities in test scores. You we worry way too much about who he'd met. There's enormous range of who can succeed at various institutions. It's last about who comes in at a pretty big rains and more about the support and resources that are provided. The fact is that wealthy institutions provide way more resources and support for learners and they graduate at very high rates and public non flagship public institutions. They can just cannot provide those resources for the learners and you see that in attrition rates that are very high by the way the scale of inequality in resource allocation in higher education is way way higher than. Right, so like schools like Harvard or Dartmouth or spending about one hundred, thousand dollars per student per year on education. And schools like Bunker Hill community college the street from me are spending about ten thousand dollars. Let's ten x at the most elite schools, and in many people go to college at all. So they're basically zero. Now Peta Keep Education. The richest district's are maybe spending. Fifteen twenty thousand dollars per student per year, and the poorest issues there may be spending twelve. Right so there are gaps, but they're just way way greater in IRA-. I do think it's very interesting. Question. One is the tech community's role like if the real issues is public disinvestment and inequalities in investment higher education at class racial lines, what is the role of the attack the VC community in that I don't know the answer. There are startups already trying to offer that kind of curriculum for very low cost or free, and there are also startups that are working on worker training. I. Mean I Know People Go to hire not just to get a job, but that is big part of the incentive, and so there are start ups that are helping people become better sales, reps, marketing rats, computer scientists you name it also startups helping people apply to college fill out their forms and get into college, and then get support when they're there. That's an important piece of landscape to. So the way I think about it is I think Josh's right that it's simplistic. To say that Ed Tech will disrupt higher education just like leave it a wasteland we really believed that but that's often caricatured but think that Ed. Tech Places Berry beneficial pressure on institutions of higher education innovate. So to me what I like about the experts is that it shows us new ways to be better within traditional educational I. Don't think that higher is on the verge of being completely. Turned, upside down I mean some colleges will go out of business in the next couple of years because covert and some of those were probably going to anyway just to accelerate the process. But I don't see if your everyone's doing holidays online or through new startups and things like that. But I do think that many of us don't teach wells should sage on the stage so to speak is. Mostly. What happens in a lot of large colleges lecture hall and that's not a good way to earn we sort of know that but we don't face any pressure change tender with members. And maybe nothing can make tenure faculty members change of anything can it's this idea that other people are out there getting a different and better type of education? So to me that's really the vision is that everything will be better because of a little bit of competitive pressure on I think that's already happening and I think a tech also encompasses tools right? It's not necessarily about replacing the teacher. It could even be just like the clicker you check. So you can track student attendance right or other ways to make sure that people are abiding by the honor policy I'll give you an example I was talking to a high school teacher. And she was explaining how even just having Google classroom show automatically when every student has submitted the homework, it's time stamped that has saved her tremendously in terms of all the arguments she used to have with parents. Parents would argue that their kids grades were not accurate. And now she can just open Google classroom and show the kid didn't hand in this assignment. Hey, this assignment was handed and three days late and so even something like that it's just a small little tool but has significantly helped her in managing her classroom. I feel like there are other ways that can be helpful and beneficial to the existing system I. totally agree. I. Think the other reason why I'm optimistic about not just Public, higher education or traditional education but education in general is if you look at the history of technological change. One thing you learn is that there are some products that when we get more innovative at making them at less cost, we don't want more of them like food, right? So two hundred years ago forty percent of all jobs in the US for an agriculture. Now, he's less than two percents because we got more productive at making food. We we need so much. So now we just devote fewer resources in the economy. But education healthcare and other things are not like that we Richard and more prosperous we want more. So I don't think education as a sector going anywhere I think there's going to be more space for everybody. I think that a lot of these innovations in the ad tech space are going to exist pop of traditional institutions not replace them. Many teachers on the ground. Do Balk at this top down infiltration of big tack into education without this baseline classroom experience. What should technologists in this space? No. From educators perspective if you're addressing attack founders technologists in the space, what should they know that they don't? We light. Bowl in the tech world, we like people in the world because you guys are all about. Do you have all these new ideas and you don't think that the status quo is what it should be we are in this game because we believe that higher education should be engine mobility. But where I, think, the conversation often breaks down is bad. There is a mismatch and understanding of our time scales. So won't win. We're looking at very long timescales that our institution people even that and also in higher education, we never start with the technology technology for us is just a tool. We don't even really talk about your online or blended or residential use the best methods for what's appropriate apple time it's not actually reaching. Back In ways that they feel like it. And helpful to them not. I. Agree with you. I feel like there's a real divide between the tech and the actual educators I think that if our communities are gonNA come together in a more authentic way, we have to talk about where are the issues of accidents and costs equality find that common ground, and then figure out together how we can create shared value with the expertise and the resources and the capital. We can all going into this and there's not really a space walk. If you look at the attack conferences like a DSP or South by southwest, it's all this is about disrupting higher education. And we're sitting here saying, well, we don't really want to disrupt higher educational invest marriage gives June. So I think our language is Mrs each. I agree the language is very polarizing right now and it should change because I think Ed Tech's role should be to improve and everyone wants to improve education, but it doesn't necessarily mean to replace or. To disrupt it in a negative stance, I've one thing I'd like to communicate to the Ed Tech Community I would love to see folks focus more on curriculum and less on delivery model. You know everybody says things like a lot of the things I do on the job I never learned in school. Or had to learn on the fly things that I never learned in the classroom and that's true for a lot of. Why don't we have more education that is actually new content new curriculum that the public school system is not covering just to give one example for years and years the standard for high school math that you take. If you're good at math is calculus. In only a few people take probability and Statistics. But probability and statistics is far far far more important for life success at this point in life given the growth in data science given. points the data for making decisions, managers that we should be teaching at every high school in the country, and we're not going to do that. We should have you had ed tech focusing on delivering good content to teach numerical reasoning decision making under uncertainty probability statistics to fill the void that is left in our advice school I would love to see more talk of course limitation. which by the way, the shock that you said that Dana. Because I would have thought that focusing on the curriculum might feel even more threatening to the existing system and professors and teachers today well, I'll speak for myself. Maybe it is. But for me, that's not threatening. That's an opportunity for collaboration because there are faculty all across the country who have knowledge about content that isn't in a curriculum that is widely taught that candy communicated, but you know we. Don't speak in the language that the public understands without a lot of practice. Most of us are not good communicators at earliest we better at part of that is that we not trained to do it. You know no one teaches us how to write a bit op ed or how to communicate podcast alert on our off but there's so much knowledge and expertise embedded in the university that needs to be brought out and our require attack to work closely with. There's just so much interesting content that could be made more available like if someone were to work with me, say like Oh, you teaches classes at economic inequality. How can we make speak in live to people like I don't have time to do that but I love to work with somebody to do that. But if we take that to the extreme and say we had the perfect curriculum for that particular course, and then we offered to every university doesn't that threaten the professor in some way because now every school has access to the same curriculum well, ultimately, the professor is constituency that we should be interested. It's student I agree that if. The cost is making some tenured professors feel threatened I. think that's a cost that I'd be willing to pay in exchange for educating our nation students spreading the knowledge that exists in learning around more widely, I, think the issue is that most accurate at work at the kind of police David and I work at I agree with David. Positive about the overall trajectory of higher education. But I'm very concerned about the individual institutions, particularly smaller tuition dependent private institutions. So we have more students attend public institutions except more private institutions. We have an amazing diversity of schools and that kind of diversities strength in a world where everything is coming into water or to monopolistic viner's only three cell phone providers for airlines one. Of the gifts of higher education is how diverse the ecosystem is. But right now with cloven, it's very much accelerating transplant with these schools at risk seem demographic headwinds. The costs are going up and I think that attacking come into this world to actually help out these institutions. In some ways, you really should not be paying attention to the places where our David and I. Teach and work. We're really not that important should really be thinking about the big flagship universities and this diversity. If you can do that the faculty will not be so threatened because you're actually helping to send him their institutions. Keep their jobs I mean, think about it all those institutions there are professors in departments. All across the country who have developed a really thoughtful interesting way of teaching certain material, and if you could combine it all into the perfect syllabus for teaching certain topics that are not widely taught, you could really supercharged amount of learning that people can access and it's threatening. Soviet. Right, so that could then potentially lead to this calling of teachers where if we have online courses taught by the quote unquote, best instructors that could make lesser lecturers obsolete or redundant just a piggyback on that I. Do think that you would have superstar Letchworth but I don't think that would make us all obsolete. I think what would happen is when you rather watch electric from somebody WHO's better. I am my will transforms I'm no longer the lecturer. Instead, my job is to basically guide people through the material and to meet them or they are learning into form a human connection with them and makes them want to throw in the assignment in because they come to office hours and make a personal connection with me i. mean if you think about teachers that have touched your lives just imagine who are the teachers in your life that meant the most you. It was a mix of the personal connection and the stuff they taught him classroom wasn't like Gosh you know Mrs Hicks was the very best first grade teacher in terms of TD phonics remember the. You remember the Human Connection You Abbott and I don't think that's ever going to replace. I remember hearing an argument that everyone should pre watch the lecture beforehand, and then just do their homework in the classroom and that guided time with the teacher would be far more valuable. Interesting, it's true that so much of. What we get out of education is that personal connection that mentorship though Connie I know some stars are actually trying to tap into that mentorship model as well. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of startups right now that are trying to. Offer online tutoring. And peer groups, even learning different topics to help encourage each other answer each other's questions. And in the online model, I think the value proposition as you are able to access people who don't just live a couple miles from you. So if you lived in a place where you didn't have access to great tutors, you can now still higher tutor from one of the best universities or one of the best schools. Who can still teach at a reasonable price? Aid You want to get more into the actual design of education. From a research perspective what should educators now when they're delving into? This world about nine learning. Many educators are using zoom by default. How much of the effectiveness of an online learning curriculum has impacted by that interface or what you might call. The delivery method would students and educators benefit from some kind of custom platform that was designed from an education first perspective versus zoom, which was not originally intended for this purpose. We're using Zun now education. That's how people think about online education thought this should be or would be or could be basically when you design online course most about work as a synchronous, you're building a MAC learning building discussions building formative assessments. You're building pure learning mostly, it's a synchronous, and then you can combine some synchronous. Hours agents discussion never works welder lecture, but it's complementary and was really for the relationship building what we found in the pivot to remote teaching learning with covert is. School didn't have time to develop these really well, thought out a synchronous courses with everything you do with online there is sometimes too much emphasis on zoom classrooms, not very good and burn people out. So if you as to what we're seeing now is actually dictated raising you're getting a false negative. Point well taken but if As you say is not working what will the improvement be you mentioned? We'll likely see improvement this fall in that you know a lot about the research online ad and you've both done it. My answer is asked me in a couple of months because I'm teaching A. First Year, Master's public policy curriculum the Kennedy School Stats Cornerstone Teaching it with some colleagues who've done it before and of already started to use blending tool. So it's a pretty successful model but I'm stepping into. Luckily, this will be a challenge because you're trying to teach something that actually requires a lot of interactivity. You know I can make some a synchronous content but when you're working. Through problems in explaining concepts art of the challenges to intuit when you're in a classroom in your with both when you need to slow down when you need to speed up when you need to step back and explain something differently, and a lot of good teaching is not about what you prepare ahead of time it's how you react at least in my experience like reading the room. And my observation from doing a lot of seminars is that the four of us right here I don't find it to be meaningfully worse in terms of reading your reactions and talking with you. But when you get to above ten or twelve or so it's very hard to read the room and read people's faces and get a sense for what happened many body language. You can't look at fifteen phases at once. And I just find it frankly, very difficult to pace correctly. And I don't know if there's a technological solution to that. It's just something about when you're in a room with people sitting there you can just pick up more information from scanning the crowd. And I think that's a real limitation of online teaching lease for me. So do you really open any technology? Helps me do that better but challenged it doesn't scale very well having real affecting education better personal terms flurry of where it's built on relationships. It's expensive. Do because like David's time you'll have so much time today and never sleep. Really doesn't scale very well. So it's been hearing how you can actually use ordinances of the technology and realize the limitation. That's a great point I. Think one that you've both made which is. Some of the inherent features were great education. are very difficult to scale up. Connie, how would you respond to that? As do was describing reading the room I couldn't agree more when you're talking about thirty students or less just witnessing my daughter's can dig art an online experience through them in the spring. It's hard for the teachers to control thirty five. Really really hard. But I can also see the flip argument which say if you have a lecture hall of five six. Hundred. Students. Even, being able to see attendance and technologically there's no reason why you wouldn't be able to use software to figure out if the students paying attention or making eye contact. So theoretically, you should be able to. Read the room and very, very large class sizes potentially better than even in person. So I think they're still an argument that tech can still even help you read the room more than what you see today. I, definitely. Think that's possible. I wrote a book called Martier version of. So. We talk a lot about in the book is how education changing much more of a team sport. Like David to Grad school learn to teach the way talking professors, which means not at all learn display. And a sociologist demographer, my training learn. About teaching now, at certainly schools with more resources. Able to bring in people who are learning designers, instructional designers, media, experts, those kinds of things which really teaching these becoming a team sport I. think that's a positive 'cause education's much better. I also think in one of the underlying issues that we have to think about what we're talking about higher education and Technologies. We're seeing a growth in inequality. We're seeing that the schools with the most resources are really able to bear this covert and the current trends schools that don't have the resources to bring in all these. Folks were faculty around designing online courses, low residency, blended courses into much different hiking thing. So it's a real question. Well, how do you bring those resources to places that really don't have the money to pay these Kinda folks on education changing I don't know the answer to that I. Think it's a really difficult problem. But I I do think we've seen the inequalities grow and grow a lot of five six months. I agree with that although I do think probably the solution to improvement is the. Sort of complementarity between people who have content mastery and the tools. Right. You still need a person to figure out the best way to reach people to teach a complex topic like let's say economic inequality or something. So I'M GONNA economist by training and. I never encountered economics until college. and. There is an AP micro macroeconomics Most people never realized until he taken it calms class that economics is not just money and finance that it's actually a study of human behavior and choice under constraints and economists have interesting things to say about all kinds of social issues. I started teaching a freshman seminar. About economic inequality. Basically for the sole purpose introduced a freshman at Harvard Futa time is idea that economics can be study social problems in human behavior that are more interesting than most people I would love to get some of that insight into the hands of high school students and middle suits. You can make that stuff accessible without it being technical accordance economics are not about math and abstract about human. Behavior and things like sunk costs that are not for me. So entrepreneurially go and create content like go take a roadshow around and just no way that professors have the capability of doing that or the time to do it. That's a place where innovation good and maybe there's not enough money to remain in it, but it would just be incredible benefit the society of we could like. Have innovative contractors pair with people who have content expertise and create stuff that really more whatever multimedia content that kids are interested in watching, and then you've got other tools that let you annotate slides on an ipad or he got these beautiful light boards where you can teach reverse look at the camera while you're teaching and right on them, and those are all tools that by themselves don't do anything. But if they're combined with people who have content knowledge can be leveraged, teach more bullets seem cost or the increase productivity. So, we've talked about how texted plan a supporting role in in person education. This is an interesting moment in time and that tech has did play a much greater role than I think educators desire or comfortable with. But as we come out of this and we go back to normal life do you think this inflection point for Ed Tech is just a temporary inconvenience scramble that will eventually reset to the way that we were or do you think that there will be lasting changes? I think that. People prefer to be educated in person made people do. And so I don't think the person. Market for education going to disappear or go into a long term decline. But I do think they're going to be a lot of people who understand that there are many more options available to them in the tech space that if they can't be on campus for whatever reason, there's a much richer landscape album than most people realized. So to the optimistic I think what we'll see is more education happening in a lot more different ways rather than. The tech sector competing away in person education. So that's my hope and I actually do think that's K. Through twelve I think almost everyone universally. Prefers and person I think the kids prefer in person I think the teachers prefer in person and I think the parents very very much prefer and per. Second. So I feel I k. through twelve. While we are all surviving in an online context, the preference will be to go back to school. especially, all that social interaction for young kids is so critical to their development, and my hope is that a lot of this disruption this moment in time will result in better curriculum. And allow for the best curriculum to get to all of the teachers because if you think about especially K. through twelve, the common core programs and most schools are teaching the same topics. Right. The same kindergartner is learning about how plants grow in one school and learning about its line, a slightly different way in another school. But why aren't those teachers having better collaboration tools? So they can share tips and learnings and content and the best youtube video on the topic that they found Josh I wanna get your as well this. Temporary and we're going to go and reset or do you think we'll see lasting changes in the way that we learn. In terms of like how we're GONNA come out say something great positive in that over the last. What we've really seen are that professors murders had to have a different kind of relationship with Alban at home. We've seen how complicated and crazy our lives are difficult. It is I'm hoping that as we come back and when we come back, the professors students will kind of have a better understanding of each other people and how complicated in difficult our lives are, and we'll have more of an I care and caring for each other. I think trance appreciate teachers. Far More now than they did before. We agree there are much more grateful teachers now than before. Well the whole attack debate brings up that interesting dichotomy and that teachers are recognized as being. Underpaid I say that being married to one but also in the Ad Tech Space, there are also expensive and there's ways that we can bring down those costs with online models. But if you take what David mentioned about teachers playing a different kind of role, the guided role, they're still always going to be a need for that. Smaller group or one on one interactions undisputable that people do learn certain topics that are one on one. That's right and I that would be a really great development because speak for myself. That's really where I derive joy from teaching is that moment what I see understanding students is and I it a caption rebound that something Matt. Whether it's online person is just the joy of teaching, and if we can an mercer sells more fully in that. Using the tools of technology and I'm all for it. Can you have that same emotional connection through a zoom screen as you can an in person classroom I think again, I mean we've Furby in person but I've felt at times in the past few months that connection with students or with colleagues I mean I think if nothing else the one thing you don't get online serendipity like just think about when students file into the classroom, there's five minutes before class starts and people can act out your weekend talk about this and that, and then you have that at the end of they come after. You can engineer that in the online space and be thoughtful about it. When you're in person, it just happens like Magic Joshi's slightly more skeptical about earning I don't want a college tuition every online I want them on campus I'm the director of programming strategy but I. Can't replace happens and people get together. It's such an important thing and it shouldn't just be luxury for the view. I really do think there's a lot going on now with. Nonprofit for profit partnerships that we all need to work together because it's such a difficult challenge we all have a stake in the. Nelson what we have to do, and we're not GONNA be able to do it on her own nonprofit colleges and universities. We need to be part of a larger ecosystem and we need to be working together softwares eating the world. Maybe, education eating world. Well, thank you all so much for joining us and they sixteen. Deepak S it's been a pleasure. A great to me while you guys fucker great king is.

David Josh Kim professor Connie Chan Ed Tech David Deming professor of Educ Harvard Graduate School of Edu Post Secondary Education youtube Harvard Mike it director ACC Monroe Harvard Kennedy School Google David There Bunker Hill community college
The Next Wave of Marketplace Startups

a16z

28:03 min | 4 months ago

The Next Wave of Marketplace Startups

"Hi folks a quick announcement before we begin. We're continuing to share other podcasts. Here that we believe our listeners would be interested in. So i wanted to tell you about build for tomorrow a podcast hosted by jason pfeiffer who's also editor in chief of entrepreneur magazine. Build for tomorrow is a show about the unexpected things from history that shaped us and about how we can shape the future. Each episode takes deeply reported yet. Fun journey into moments of technophobia alarmism or bad habits. We just can't seem to break. For example why where. People opposed to elevators and mirrors and even teddy bears. Why does every older generation always think the younger generation sucks and what causes. What's been called the sisyphean cycle of tech panic. This show draws lessons that all. Innovators can use and encourages innovation. It used to be called passengers archive but renamed itself build for tomorrow. Because this show will make you more optimistic about the future. You can find built for tomorrow wherever you get your podcast. Hi and welcome to the podcast. I'm lauren moreau in the tech world. Marketplaces are a hot topic. That term marketplace encompasses a huge of services. We use every day with a ordering groceries. A restaurant delivery shopping online for fashion and street. Wear taking online. Classes are even getting delivered. But how have marketplace dynamics changed since pre pandemic and what cova propelled consumer behaviors will persist into twin twenty one and beyond we at a sixteen have long been obsessed with marketplace's company building analytics endlessly seeking out effects. So this week. We launched our now annual marketplace one hundred a ranking of the largest and fastest growing consumer facing marketplace startups and private companies the report. But you can find a sixteen dot com slash marketplace. One hundred is a data packed breakdown. An unprecedented year it also provides rich fodder for looking ahead. The future of marketplaces which companies are on a tear in which are locked in close competition which marquis categories are poised for growth. And which may make a comeback with all these questions in this podcast with. Essex z consumer team partners. Connie chan darcy kuiken jeff jordan and sriram krishnan as always none of the following each taking investment advice see six z dot com slash closures. For information the first voice who after mine is three rum followed by tiny. Then dorsey off the bat. What jumps out at you looking at the data this year for me. I think a couple of things which now look obvious embiid prospect given everybody's been stuck home for the last year one is a lot more time and the second is when you're not able to spend money the same you've been able to do before you die and find out Based expend a master. So i think if you look at the rise of companies like masterclass it makes sense. When you're spending more time at home you want to invest in ourselves. I think that's one interesting. You see with several companies here. I think the second one is by. Do the idea of not able to spend money in the galleries of yooglie overdoing the past Spend money in your categories device of things like cam. You speak to that. Do that was the fastest growing workplace. Category overall celebrity engagement. What do you attribute that to and does that affect your thinking on other experience based marketplaces or marketplace about growing supply and demand in lockstep. Right and so a lot of the things that happened. In marketplace there was a growth in the demand side for those things but cameos a really interesting one where the supply of the the actors. The famous influencers. They were the one who all of a sudden how to bunch of free time and saw cameo is a great way to still make money. And when you all of a sudden got so much more new supply and then more time for each sources the by you just now have much stronger by proposition might take. This is get a social media. Companies the historical contact between the large consumer social platforms and. These influencers has been. You'll give misconduct and view That's been the deal but in the last few years there's been a new behavior of okay but is there a wanted action where you can engage directly. Read your fats entertain one example with the being everything that pushed ours as been another example. And gabby oh. I think what are you seeing is celebrate. These are at home. Do of your typical revenues things don't exist and on the other hand you packer reputation. Likely i'm willing to spend if your daughters who support my favorite celebrated ours. Been a your dollars who give connie from her favorite boy star funny who appeared worcester chinese. He's been highly dollars and give. Connie showed seeing across multiple basis. Now where a shift from advertising bismarck position to having creators data have a monetary relationship with their fan base. I also feel like during covid being part of new direct monetization from your bounds with microtransactions or small transactions also became more socially acceptable. I think one part of it was a supply supply-side but it also became much more desirable. On the demand side nip people wanted to support these creators were potentially not perform you're potentially not generating any revenue there was a change in the mindset of it on the demand side as well. You don't just see that in cameo but you also see that in van camp and some of the other people that we really quick so five companies were brand new to the marketplace one hundred this year meaning. They didn't make the less last year but they achieved a certain level of scale this year many of them are start ups so maybe some of them are companies that are not yet household names. What are some of the most interesting in your opinion whether that's the business model or what it says about consumer behavior in what we're spending money on i loved. The surgeons of outdoor sites makes perfect sense during covid. We're in camp. But also you see ten term. Glamping hub is fascinating. Things can take off during covid not which is indicative of the rise of collectible quantum. Both now includes all kinds of things like crypto tryptophan. Very but also things like. Oh him on card uncle pop sports cards part of that might be a function of people having more time also an invading on new formats for shopping rather than like a flat one photo listening had this interactive video experience which i think takes experience to completely different level than say ebay listening. It kind of reminds me of the sneaker marketplace's a few years ago in that it's these really passionate niche communities where the activity is split amongst different platforms happening on social networks and it's happening on different marketplaces. But it's a very strong community in a very passionate community and then they're taking this new marketplace experience which and whatnot skase's livestreaming a new format that works with aaron taurean for go and stock act stat was very good sales a different layer of marketplace in a new structure to the marketplace but it then unlocked this new community on the singular platform which is really old trend. That you're staying with collectibles as well. And i think neither what is well-timed during covid is good. Doc which is a marketplace for people to find animals from trusted breeders a now angry tremendously through but a take what was historically local maybe regional market of readers and they expand that nationally and then they also they'll trust which is another huge thing that can accelerate marketplace very quickly dursey. Weren't you in the market for a pandemic puppy one point they're hard to find year long weightless for the i don't know if puppies are collectibles are harder to find right. I think the other than standard to me you. Companies is best collector which is a vintage shopping company based out of europe. So i grew up in india and growing up. The us close was always seen as something you would do win. You can actually afford new clothing. But i think that is really changed as i guess. Last few years ban the deans of sustainability that themes of doing what is right for the vitamin that is driving new momentum. Doors the shopping binding used flooding is always been affordable. but now there's a social cars motivation behind the scenes new zeitgeist in a way. Which maybe wasn't which i think is notable interesting with those marketplaces. We are not shopping necessarily from like the local goodwill your shopping secondhand clothing from another individual and so in some way it's the function of yes there's more acceptance of secondhand clothes but there's also a desire for everyone to have their own small business everyone to be able to generate revenue all these international market prices. So one thing that's interesting is by looking at the companies. Were also able to notice these broader trends right. So let's talk about some of the emerging categories stand out. We just talked about hand fashion. So that's companies like curtsy depop invest era collective. Another wanna wanna talk about is the rise of nishi or specialty food and beverage companies so companies like chow bus which specializes in authentic asian food. Moco which is independent grocers and specialty food shops. What does this say about our eating behaviors or changing consumer preferences. Obviously the maingot supercharge during covid for food and restaurant and then that let us get deeper into the supply will end up more specialty restaurants or palmdale restaurants. Then what has become clear as now there's enough demand and enough supply to build a more vertical oriented or nisha solution. And you don't just need to rely on the onto platforms as well so you can have something like ubereats at doordash which are like massive five hundred many also have something like chow bus which is much more vertical and then when you're vertical you just have a better experience. It's designed for that. Specific verticals unit were plates for multiple restaurants in the same delivery. Because you've got up density on the platform actually do that or you can have a u. x. specifically designed for that platform has the top line of food delivery. It kept growing and growing than the niche ones became big enough to sustain their own platforms market. Yeah like better start. Shelters that are specific to that type of for example. So it's a lot of this is not just an increase on the demand side but it made supply much are willing to get on board ship like restaurants with their revenue from in restaurant dining white gel where much more willing to consider these delivery ones and so i just speak for the chinese local restaurants around me of them were not on doordash prior to kogo because an restaurant dining was taken away as an option. They're all much more open to any of these third party marketplaces something like half of food. Pre covid was consumed in restaurants in half was consumed at home that changed and so the digital alternatives for home food consumption. Be they the. Bmn's leg in card in door dash in breeds or new entrance. I know i was looking very much for assortment. And new things to consume even order rahman from the east coast. Didn't you did angled billy. How much of behavior thing snaps back to the way the wooded was last year are much is a permanent change. The hey you know. I kind of liked auditing. From of before i mean it'll be fascinating question and it super hard dancer. Did people discover a wonderfully new way to free up a bunch of times or was it primarily safety driven one real challenge to the immediate bounceback will be the number of small businesses that got destroyed by code. I saw some morbid stat along the way from yelp j. over one hundred thousand small businesses and permanently closed their doors. And that's just the one who reported to yelp and so the chain restaurants it pretty well throughout covid primarily on takeout. The small business owner got destroyed lightning. They'll be a large vacuum for a while and hopefully small businesses comeback but there is definitely the a supply-side imbalanced wall. One thing that was striking this year was the extreme concentration of gmv at the very top of the list so we saw some of that. Last year where airbnb doordash postmates and instacart accounted for seventy six percent of the marketplace. One hundred total. Gmv and then of course over this past year three of those went public or were acquired. So they're no longer on our list. This year that concentration in gmv was even more pronounced so one company accounted for just over seventy percent of the list. Gmv said to. What do you attribute that. And do you think that concentration at the top will persist in two thousand twenty one or will get spread around a bit. I think you're seeing a little bit of a historic graduation of the smartphone. First-generation company airbnb door dash and bosch. Mark let go all disappearing off the list just created a bit of a vacuum. That instacart was last early winner standing. I do think that the online marketplace model is extremely robust and they'll be others company's growing in to take their place and that's an interesting question because if you look at the data so beyond the top three marketplace companies in the ranking no company accounts for more than one point five percent of consumers spend and then no company numbers four through one hundred or separated from their immediate neighbours by more than half a percentage point so that indicates that the competition is really intense below those top three. How does the marketplace company breakout to become numbers. One two three. I mean personally. There are a few things i look for one is if it works it can be and sometimes surprise you early on. I didn't think airbnb when. I first heard of the concept. I didn't immediately imagine it. Being tens and tens of billions of dollars of jambi mortgage places thrive with fragmented dissipation. Piglet supply side. You don't want a very concentrated. Supply-side gives them the suppliers power. But if you do the hard work of aggregating a very fragmented supply base. It can become extremely powerful open table. Be an example of that where the average restaurant owner who listen open table. When i manage it immediately was one restaurant. It took normal amounts of effort to get all those restaurants onto open table. Once on its powerful. I think another thing to call it to. Is it a category. That has As a category that's kind of growing in the aggregate if you look at something like online food ordering that's gonna lifting all the boats that are writing that way things like streetwear and sneakers and stuff like that as another example of that. Let's say next year we don't have these big giant companies at the top of our list. What do you think air contenders to move up into the top ten masterclass. I think the entertainment company rich education company you're consuming content or do you don't feel bad about it you don't feel guilty about it. It doesn't feel like carbs. It feels like protein at the end of it and in dubs of social prestige. It's one of the few places bear. I see everyone from a ceo. Sports celebrated Which i think arrivals being on netflix in terms of social status and over the course of twenty twenty some of the companies were able to pull off both high levels of growth and high levels of gmv which is rare. we're still in the midst of a pandemic and it's kind of interesting because it's across various categories. There's there's something that entrepreneurs can take away from those companies that did achieve some success over the past year. I mean typically they are inversely correllated gets harder and harder to grow the bigger got just because the incremental growth you have to generate just gets so incredibly orange and so the companies are at scale and can achieve strong growth. That's pretty special performance and if they can persist for a while they then become the next airbnb endure dashes. The company that moved the most from last year to this year was out school. It jumped fifty nine spots from last year's ranking to this year's ranking some of that is obviously due to our kids all home out of school during covid how do you assess which online education companies are worth watching. What are you looking for here on. Untucked we look for things that either make the quality of education dramatically better than what you could afford real realize or things that make the type of education access dramatically cheaper than what you could get in real life because as you know. Kobe has dramatically accelerated online untucked. We're looking for things that are going to press the behavior us pandemic and marketplaces work great and online anti because basically you are opening jr the supply of tutors beyond your small five ten mile radius. So maybe i can't get a great chess coach. Where i live but i can probably find one online. They teach kids when they grow up on dick. Or maybe if. I live outside of silicon valley. It's hard for me to find a computer science tutor. And so i can go to jimmy. Learning can find a tutor their first having to rely on someone who lives qualify one company which is pickle by. Byu has a huge focus on education and a lot of features in waller towns and by just been able to get them access to people who need coaching and the one thing that really surprised me was a lot of the customers that actually give the united states. So you basically have somebody in the us who wants like macular and you being taught by somebody a small town in india which just happens to have a large focus on stem education and you have like a huge supply of baby jersey fascinating dominant and in that example. It'd be so much cheaper too. So we noticed some interesting shifts in consumer spending over the course twenty twenty and that meant some companies with see no demand in one quarter and then explosion in the next quarter as the disease. Abdin flowed and restrictions changed for example zillah. The wedding marketplace saw a big q. Three i think people started to look ahead. Wholesale at the end of the year was huge. After having a meager first-quarter furniture's uh spike in growth. In the second half of the year same with moving services whereas normally we'd probably expect to see growth. That was fairly steady. There was a lot of up and down this year for various categories and companies. Where does that leave these companies going forward the key thing from the marketplaces perspective is one. Can they insulate themselves from that. Changing consumer behavior or can they tailor their concept enough to be agnostic to whether people are lockdown or not. i looked up through airbnb. For example immediately early in the pandemic the business just came to a stop because international travel game stop and cross country travel game stop and then consumers adjusted and the platform was flexible enough to adjust it so instead of long distance international drips people were taking long duration mir term trips so a lot of these companies are going to be sensitive to what's happening. The macro in some companies made progress in doing that of responding to okay. We got dealt a bad hand. What do we do with a lot of building a marketplace's kidding that tipping point where you have enough liquidity. you have enough supply. You have enough demand to actually make the marketplace worked. Make the economics work oftentimes. It's about getting enough scale. In whatever the market you exist in. And so i think to a certain extent. What twenty twenty did is it. Led a bunch of companies get to that tipping point and get that level of marketplace liquidity that even if demand ebbs and flows forward. Even if it's not at the place it is today they still crossed the threshold. And so i wouldn't say they're safe but they're in a much more advantageous position than they were in two thousand nineteen. What do you see as persistent trends when it comes to consumer behavior over the past year in your opinion do you think the past year has been a catalyst for any long-term changes in consumer spending behavior. Or do you think we'll see a whole the reset. I think a lot of the new habits will actually percents. Maybe groceries and food. Delivery won't be at the same level. I think a lot of people built that habit now up for multiple months and as you know we can continue a habit for a few weeks consecutively. It's hard to completely revert back. I do think also. A lot of online at tech was accelerated and bolts forward. Same thing with secondhand clothing. Are they once resign over. The last year is people investing in things because it's fun and that is entertainment factor. It could be again the dealer because it seems to do so or it could be a fractional shares of or dating cards are. It could be a piece of art that you know like one of the or but i think the aperture of things you want to invest in as just expanded dramatically in the last year from stockton and bonds and be listed than what it used to be before the start of people having fun in investing some of these new categories again. And i think that is probably gonna persist awhile. It's something you've talked a lot about. Connie especially in shopping category has been underestimated. And do you think you'll see more growth. I think we'll see more aggressive in terms of fun shopping experience whether it's social live short video maybe audio. I laughed because i haven't seen that yet. Pets too has been on the rise. Pets are one of those Outside the new kids for a lot of people. So i would expect to see. Pets continuing Headache ton of Four coded. I mean as young as wait longer to get married and have kids. They have turned a pet so pet ownership was already on a binge and so throw in covert on top of that then the willingness to spend on experiences for your pets is also very high in growing. I remember when we were early. Investors dog vaca- and it was pretty hotly contested investment conversation. 'cause the people with pets kind of understood the okay you want to spoil your pet do all this and people had pets growing up but didn't have them no like no. We used to vacation. Just leave the dog in the garage for two weeks with a whole bunch of water and a whole bunch of food. And you're like oh come back to. Oh my god so. I think the pet category is definitely one place for string the other one. I make a pun for health and wellness. Whether it's therapy whether it's coaching whether it's fitness whatever it is everything that category just seems to be. Moving really quickly. Does something that people are pulling for a mental health. We have seen so much innovation coming in one of the whole thing definitely accelerated by the pandemic and the challenges of dealing with it. But i think it. A lot of stigma on talking about mental health has gone away pretty darn quickly and i think that's a permanent change. Do you think the camping in the rv trend continued outdoor travel and marketplaces for outdoor experiences. This feels like one of those things hits moment during covid and a big part of that well persistent whether it's rv's whether it's campgrounds whatever it ends up the i think there's some version of this it will keep going and probably see the network effects on one or two platforms really. Take hold a bed throw on how doors and con on rb thing. A bunch of rv was out of necessity. Whereas i like to camp and the reality in the united states is it's really hard to find a good campground on the public sector and the good ones sell out immediately their ration things like that so i think there's going to be a lot of opportunity for. Nobody's like that. So we talked about behaviors that we think will persist that celebrated through the pandemic but the pandemic also up ended a lot of categories. Like ticketing for example or child care or office space or traditional travel. Do we think that those categories will make a comeback. Certainly i mean. The demand for childcare has only gone up maybe categories them as a whole decline but where the marketplace version actually becomes more attractive and maybe office space is one of those examples. There will probably be a decline in the amount of office space in the united states. That's actually gonna rented over the next twenty twenty one versus twenty nineteen kind of thing but for the marketplaces that are offering more flexible office. Space or something like that. Even though the top line number down to marketplace might actually bounced back to heights there are much higher than they were But do you think about that travel. Category jeff the tourists segment. I would imagine should come back pretty vast. I am not as optimistic about business. Travel coming back. I think a lot of people just discovered that instead of going to a board meeting in new york attendant ninety percent one hundred ten percent efficacy and only spend three hours doing it instead of the two days it would have taken before. So i think it's gonna be a tale of two worlds on that read survey saying business travel may not come back come back ever may not come back for years at the levels. It was before i think that a boost of on business travel in the future. One is beyond that. You don't need to get on a flight to do one three are meeting which is much fishing to do from a bedroom over zoom. The other school of thought is all it takes is one aggressive salesperson to go fly in person and blizzard heart deal which dead very quickly. Everybody else bind up doing that. And of course he's not one or the other lots of kinds of business travel. But i'm just about the psychology of business in what you expect to see in the next year. You're right. I think different parts of business travel come back worker. That said a lot of our enterprise companies in the portfolio were able to continue to close some an accelerating rates during covid which early in covid. We were very skeptical of their ability to do that. There are a lot of good online convention software out there right now that partially replaced those uk. So it'll be interesting. Aggregating it into specific use cases but a whole lot preceded way better than we all thought it would wing shutdowns for savage and also conditional on the company or visiting. If you're on the sales agent going back to the office right if they have gone remote. And if they don't have a headquartered anymore you have no place to visit. But they're all in miami so you have to. What are some marketplace categories. You think will be big in twenty twenty one. Are there excalibur categories. Broadly expressed the non fungible. Token thing is taking off faster than blake. Anything i've ever seen different artists or selling or were created millions of dollars in minutes and so there already was the trading card craze that was leading to a lot of analog businesses kind of blowing up in a good way if you digital on top of that. I think that'll be very interesting. Category to watch. I think you'll see tickets. I mean obviously. That's decimated with covid. You'll see that come back pretty aggressively next year as we'll see if you look at if you started Right after the spanish flu you had the winning minis bitch had to put it mildly a lot of consumer spending actually out the real world so i suspect this is probably going to spend up energy which is going to explode out into cuba wanting to go to a concert again. Our boy expands a football game again. I would do anything experience. A marvel movie on opening night and just be spent up. In the moment. I would be a lot of money. They'll be able to go experience that so i think you're just going to see an explosion and consumer behavior so in a glove ben. The dj drops the be or gender a touchdown or a dunk. I think people to connection again. Thanks on thank you for joining us. Acu podcast thank you thank you thank you thanks guys.

airbnb gmv jason pfeiffer lauren moreau Essex z consumer team partners Connie chan darcy kuiken jeff jordan sriram krishnan skase aaron taurean chow bus Bmn entrepreneur magazine yelp instacart Gmv van camp
a16z Podcast: Lessons Learned from Chinese Education Startups

a16z

31:15 min | 2 years ago

a16z Podcast: Lessons Learned from Chinese Education Startups

"Hi, this is Frank Chen. Welcome to the sixteenth eight podcast. This episode is part two of a series called what's next for education startups. It originally aired as YouTube video, and you can watch all of our YouTube videos at YouTube dot com slash a16 Z videos. Hi, this is Frank Chan welcome to the sixteenth Zee network. Very excited today to share a conversation. I had with Connie Chan one of our general partners Connie is one of the world's experts on trends, especially consumer trends in China and tech. And today, we're going to talk about the future of lifelong learning, and she's going to share a few examples of very awesome startups in China. She's super interested in what's happening with jen's e consumers, she's very interested in real estate. And how people are finding homes preparing their homes to be listed on Airbnb renting home. So on and so forth. She's also very inspired by things that entrepreneurs are doing in China that might have applicable pretty here in the United States. She helped us find our investments in line and Pinterest. And I think you're going to have I think it really enjoyed this conversation that I had with Connie. And after tell you a funny story before we get started. So we did not synchronize our sweaters. We've known each other so long we just knew to come in the same color family. So county was my first higher at entries and Horowitz. The Adam Rifkin introduced us to Adam at one time and may still be the most connected person on Lincoln and his whole heart and mission is to connect people. And so when I told Adam I was looking for the best deal partner ever. He went and found the Honey. And I'm so thrilled that you've been here for so long. And now are a general partner looking to make investments, so welcome. Thank you. Thank you. So today, we're going to talk about. We're going to continue our series in education and talk a little bit about ongoing education. And we're so excited about the things that we can do as adults to continue to learn new things. And for those of you that know me like learning a new thing is my favorite thing in life. So I'm so excited about this episode. So Connie, why don't you set the context, and let's talk a little bit about the things that are working especially in China. And I thought maybe it'd be good just anchor on how much money and how many users people spend on adult education because this is very surprising. I think about -cation learning in a way that goes well beyond K through twelve. So I'm actually hyper focused on vacation for adults people once they've graduated college. How can they use online education for self improvement, for example? And if you look at the dollars abroad, I do a lot of studying what's working in China working in Asia to give me inspiration for ideas here in the states? It's massive market in Asia's massive in China. And I think it's because China has developed all this online education platforms that are specifically made for mobile than unlock all these other new features and benefits. And in terms of how big this I researched says that right now all in education and China's one hundred fifty million users and expected to grow to nearly three hundred million by air twenty twenty. It's a forty billion dollar industry expected to grow to seventy billion dollars of courses. A very broad categorization of what counts as -education. But what's interesting is the way that these research reports break it up the largest group is not K through twelve. It's not even college students, the largest groups of students who want to self-improvement online education. They are twenty six to thirty five that's super interesting. So you would expect sort of the Asian cultures that the parents sending their students to after school enrichment programs, and you still you think that's where all the money is going. But you're saying look, it's after they graduate college, right, right? And I think that's because if you take the word education, and you expand it just to self-improvement self learning, then it greatly increases the demographic that you can address. And yes, a lot of people just say China -education, it's huge because parents spent so much money on touring and so forth because of the way the college system works. But most of that money is actually going through post college graduates, and it's really interesting because in China, what's already happening is what we sort of expect to happen here. Which is today we have this system where sorting go through K through twelve. And then a subset of these people go to college, and then basically at age twenty two you're done. There's no more formal education. And now, it's basically the workplaces job to train you, right? They'll send you classes and so on, and we know that's going to change. We know that the world is so dynamic now that you can't learn everything that you need to be a productive worker citizen by age twenty two when you're going to have to learn ongoing, right? This is sort of a big part of our investment thesis behind you acidy. There's of course, as a college curriculum likely never include like how to conduct yourself out leaning how to speak publicly, right, right? How to hot sleep train your kid back houses education parenting? Course that counts as even remember cover that stuff in college. Yeah. And in addition to sort of the evergreen stuff that you mentioned like, you know, everybody needs to be a good public speaker. Everybody needs to know how to there's also sort of topical things that emerge as marketplace's emerge. So I'm thinking about the towel sellers. Right. So town was like EBay here. And what happened in towel was there were sellers who are experimenting with the system, and they kind of figured out what was working for them, and they would share online and in videos, and how all this happening, and they're like, oh, let's actually get behind this and push right? Let's set up about university where we can take our very best sellers and actually have the make money from their content. Not just their markets completely. Yeah. So awesome. So why do you think this is happening already in Asia? Why are they had I think Asia's in general, much more will the first and mobile only environment than the states. Meaning that if I asked you to go by parish. Shows you might naturally flock to your computer to get the best user experience. But an Asia you'd pull up your phone, and you open the team or the top o- out the idea that your PC and phone are completely interchangeable, and you can completely rely on your phone to get everything you need is more prevalent in Asia. There's also more mobile payments idea of paying on your phone is very natural uncommon to people not just in tier one cities across the country. But I think there's three core breakthroughs and insights that Asia's really figured out that has propelled. It's -education market so much more forward on the first one is that they rely on artificial intelligence and Shane learning in in a much more interesting way. So that allows them to unlock products and features, and and just ideas that I don't see here in the state. So for example, there's this company called lingo chant, and it teaches English and typically when you look at a language learning up here in the states. It's very flash cartridge, or it will give you a sentence, and you can read it, but an Asian they realized that people want to learn English not just to be able to raise them, right, but more importantly to have conversations it'd be able to visit the world to interact with other people. And so they use the mobile phone in the microphone to allow you to speak directly into the up and read out sentences. And actually carry on conversations with a computer that will speak back to you. And that kind of scoring using machine learning and artificial intelligence allows people to learn pronunciation with a standalone mobile app, and I think that's a fantastic example, like leaning in artificial intelligence and machine learning to dramatically reduce the cost this company lingo champ, their gross margins are over seventy percent. Because we don't have the teacher costs. Right. So nobody has to sort of say, ooh, that's a terrible accent. My funny story on this is when I was learning Chinese Mandarin. My mannered teacher said the asked me one day are you from Hong Kong, which don't realize it is probably the most grievous insult that. You could roll it. Somebody trying to learn Mandarin because it's so bad. So so you're saying look they didn't have to have a teacher listening to you. And then getting guns. They're using the machine learning to say, you don't sound like a native, and here's where right and because their gross margins are so high their price plant is so much lower than having a real life to it. Or even an online course instructor tutor. Their price point is is so affordable people all around the country access it and that same concept of leaning into machine learning is also true and music as another category. There's this company in China, I p Palin and pain Leon. And China and Chinese translates to they will practice, piano or practice and instrument alongside you and what it is a mobile at which is a piano teacher and this app, you put on the stand and you attach it to European oh and this teacher can help your kid age five or sixteen learning instrument. They piano violin a bunch of classical Chinese instruments. But again, it's not price point that they're able to unlock because for a lot of these music instructors so much of that cost us in their travel time or because you're living in a city where the cost of living is just so high. But now in China, my teacher doesn't have to live in Beijing. They don't have to live in Shanghai. They come live anywhere in the country. They don't even have eleven China. Right. And they're not always that the case they use the machine learning aspect to help the teachers with scoring the kids and scoring. The performance because with music just like with languish there is actual pitch. There is an actual tempo. And actual rhythm that you're supposed to play. Right. So they can take the composition score. And then here your actual performance and give you a grade which then allows one teacher to teach two or three students at the same time, which then unlocks even more cost savings allowing more parents to give their kids this music lessons that they would typically not be able to afford. I'm flashing back to my piano learning days. I'm hearing the two right? So now, we can do that with machine learning. Being able to do that during practice sessions. Right. And having that information up to the teacher. There's just a lot more. We can do with machine learning, especially when it comes to language music. That is still I think very untapped here. In the west. So let's talk a little bit about sort of the efforts that we've sort of seen here, and sort of how you think we get from here where we are. So we have learning platforms like masterclass, we have learning platforms. Like, you to me, we have learning companies like, you density, one of our portfolio companies what sort of missing from those that sort of the next generation of ad tech startups, you're looking for you think we'll have I think that the answer is one where it's mobile, and the reason is because level only as as a society that I think is inevitably in our future. And when you have mobile that allows for all kinds of different things and allows again for microphone input as an example on everyone has a CARA a front facing and about facing camera on their phones, which allows for different kinds of input interaction with a platform. Law allows it to have this bite sized snacks rather than you know, opening Instagram misfit. Maybe you can take three minute class a five minute class whenever you have downtime and also mobile allows people to not feel like you have to be confined to video format. And I it was really critical because a lot of long tail expertise doesn't always naturally sink video for example. You can be a math teacher. And yes, you're writing formulas on the board or you can be a philosophy teacher. Right. And you can be sitting there giving Electra just sitting there or that same kind of content can be also conveyed through podcast through an audio format. And once they're focused on mobile air, not thinking like it has to be video has to be screen immersive at now can also be a podcast that you listen to your driving to work when you're walking to work. And again, I think that that expansion of formats as really obvious once you make something that is. Mobile center. So we haven't seen the class of mobile first ad tech that you were expecting to see which is pretty surprising. Right. It's sort of it is obvious insight. Once you say it out loud like you did. And so. The reason is because so much of attack has been either you pay this one time, very expensive tuition or. Honestly, it's odd based right like YouTube is the biggest university in the world and most of the craters are monetize through advertisements. But because it's based allot of the content on YouTube can't go to the depth of absurd. As that you need to really make a big impact on your life or your career because the craters they have these incentives to have to create content that gets lots of plex, and the reality is a lot of self-improvement lifelong learning content as not all click content, right? And to go into that depth of what you need to know ad format is not the best way to compensate these craters. So for example, if you're buying a house for the first time, they need to understand how to think through that transaction it doesn't make sense for someone to create these ads based videos because one they're not going to get all the clicks. They meet to justify their time and expertise, but. I mean, imagine a platform where someone could package that in twenty thirty courses. It could be a mixture of audio PDF. Video livestream QNA paid one on one consultation and put that on one format or that crater now can make much more money and have the right incentives to create deeper better content. So that makes perfect sense. Right. Which is it takes a lot of work to create this content. And if you're monetize with advertising that means only the top one percent are going to even break, even or barely break even on all of that effort, right because you need to try, and tens of millions of people. Ask reward production value. Right. So you need the great videography dinner and need to spend an hour on your YouTube thumbnail. That's nuts. Right. Because honestly a lot of this. Great experts a lot of these professors. These doctors nutritionist they are not media expert, and in fact, that they have to go higher videographers by very expense. Equipment cameras lighting. What have you learn how to edit videos themselves for the first time, that's not long term? I think going to work because these craters are being underpaid for their knowledge. So I think about my own sort of ongoing education habits YouTube has definitely become one of them. Which is to say, I'm watching TED talks. I did something over the holidays, which I'm very proud of. Which is I placed a doorknob, and I'm proud of this because I'm like, the least handy person, I know. And so I watched a YouTube video and went to Home Depot and in my in laws house, I replaced the little door mechanism. Yes. I did it. And so you're saying. I shouldn't be that problem. But I was like Italy proud of myself as like, I'm a software person, and that definitely hardware. Okay. So anyway, thank you for indulging. My burst of enthusiasm for myself. So you're saying that type of content that's fine for you too. Because like do breezy right videos video which part to change out which take out of like ads for that makes sense. But it doesn't make sense for this sort of highly produced package where I'm teaching us something that some more serious life skill. Ted talks are fantastic. Intro. Course, that's a first great lecture. But there should be tongue lectures beyond that for every topic. Right. And a lot of things that are skill base in particular. I think. Deserve having ten of courses twenty courses thirty courses so on and there's a lot of things that I would be willing to pay for. I I love to pay to to figure out. How can I improve my voice to pay to say, how can I improve parenting and so forth. And there aren't great platforms right now that make it as easy as creating like a shot the fight website for these craters to monetize their knowledge, and these craters typically one they're not media experts to they're not technologists. So they don't have time to build their own blogs or their own websites and integrate pay power credit card payments into them. And and the biggest problem is that they're they're truly underpaid right now for the knowledge that they're fairly sharing on you too. If you think about sort of an example that is in this ecosystem, you think about masterclass, right? Where the entrepreneur doing a great job of sort of hoovering up all of the top experts in their fields. And I think part of the reason. He went top down is sort of the same reason that Elon Musk went to the the roadster first, and then the X, and then the or the S and then the accident he's working his way down. And I think part of that is because I wonder if there's enough cultural support in the west for paying for education of this kind. Right. So it sounds like in China you already have that cultural support. So like, what is education amongst household expenses is like number three or number four after housing and medical right? So you have this in bread sort of support, cultural sport. Like, of course, I'm paying for education. Right. And so it wants mobile sort of content sources sprung up the money just went, right? And so what do you think is going to happen here? Do we need more cultural support? How is that interaction happen? The way that we Silicon Valley platforms can help encourage the shift for more lifelong learning and self improvement as as really breaking away from just the odd baseball and finding the right incentives for craters to to be able to monetize because I think a lot of craters when they have an ability to make a significant amount of income from sharing their expertise. They will create better content, and as there's better content out there users will say, hey, this is a fantastic way to put a small investment into myself. Right. And right now the platforms, I think are not doing enough to help this crater's monetize and for a platform that doesn't just mean changing their business model and also means long ties in their own brand. And and bay coming a mainstream app and mainstream website, and that's really important because for a lot of these platforms. They shouldn't have just one. One teacher teaching you how to sing there should be twenty thirty teachers, and then there should be rankings based off of student reviews, or based on people who actually completed the course, right, and repeat students, and so forth, and all those things that hope mobile app, the best teacher and these platforms need to do a lot to invest in building out their own brands to become mainstream nor to do that. And and I love the masterclass content. I think once they expand they're going to have to include more teachers for the same. It doesn't have to be Steve Martin teaching you how to do comedy. It'll be your local comedy genius. All of them together, and they could be priced at different price points. And then when when you go the level beyond Steve Martin, you can have them ranked differently, right? And I'd love to be able to figure out. What are the rankings the classes that people finished what other rankings where people gave the highest reviews? Right. What are the rankings based off price? What have you right? All of that kind of data is totally presentable right now. Let's just not being surfaced by the platforms. Another sort of age old challenge in sort of building these pervasive education marketplaces in the past has been you sort of have very broad categories of education. They're sort of. Let's call it hobby entertainment. Right. I'm learning the piano, I want to sing better. Right. And then there's sort of business self-improvement like I'm gonna learn how to use excel better. Or I want to be a better offer up seller or something like that. So do you think that there's going to be one platform that sort of wins? Both do you think? There will be more specialty things that sort of cater to each of these. Because it feels like they have different dynamics. I think it's possible. But it's unclear how how the Fisher will shake out. I mean, for example, I think there's a lot of great workout ops today already on that put a bunch of fitness instructors nutritionist up against each other. And you can choose which instructor you want and they have that category. Don't pretty well. But I also think it's very possible. If there was a platform that created the right tool signer, that's like shop, a fine a box where I can say here on my podcast. Here are my blog posts these are the times where I'm going to a livestream QNA. This is the PDF the book I willing to sell right? If it gave creators these options desist, turn on these modules and create their own knowledge store. I think it's possible. Also to have a one major platform as well. The hobbyists entertainment market as well as the Syria self-improvement market, and it's possible. When it's not an EMMY start, cutting eventually be something that you took goes into or something that Twitter goes into Twitter as a time of influencers to and you lots of long tail experts, but I think the opportunity is still there and still so early enough that a new startup could take it. Great. If you were to give if you had one or two pieces of advice that you have or entrepreneurs in this space. What would it be? This is probably contrarian view even in Silicon Valley. But I would build for mobile. I. And I would build your out before you build your website because it won't draw slickly unlock different ways of thinking you'll be able to use your GPS your microphone, you'll be able to use the camera, and if those new additions features don't help you brainstorm new things and not the problem, actually, you'll be able to use an payments, right? You might be able to use Apple Pay and so forth. So I think one big thing. I would say is if you're building for the future consider building this platform, I on mobile, even before you go to the PC. I I know that's a very contrarian view. Because a lot of investors will also say go go to the PC. I get your Brown and then go to, but I think when you start at least brainstorming at the very least on a platform, I in a locks this idea how can they use a microphone differently? And then now that I have microphone audio impact. How couldn't use machine learning differently, right? And that allows you to unlock ideas, like the lingo champ for English learning or like Palin for piano, teaching that honestly, someone building for a PC never get to that incite. Right. Right. And then presumably your next piece of advice would be experiment on the business model. Right. So we've got mobile we've machine learning and now it's like, let's do something other than ads. Yeah. I I I am not a fan of strictly on based models mostly because the ones that do succeed say like a Facebook or goal. I mean, the reason they're at succeed is not because of the massive patriots. It's also because of all the information, they have not user. So the ads are highly targeted Ryan. And if you're a platform where you don't have such detail information on your end users. Your odds are not as valuable and they're not going to convert us, well, so focusing on just building pages and hoping monetize. With adds to news scariest strategy in general for any consumer. But I think business model experimentation and education space is huge. Because I mean, a lot of his categories like your skills for door. Not right. Maybe could sell you. You know, similar dornald? They should have sold you on our door knows. I should've you other home projects. But hey, if you take this course, by the components for it at a discount, and that can be a partnership with their local Home Depot because geographically they know the local home J boats, only two three miles away from where you are. Right. And and those ideas are very possible not being implemented today. Kind of thinking if this person learned this course, what else can I sell them beyond? Just another course what physical things can I sell them. What other services can I sell? It seems inevitable that as we continue into world that rapidly changes therefore needs new skills all of the time that the spending pattern here on education will flatten right, which is the way I think about education spending over a lifetime today is kind of like there's an elephant inside a python, right? Which is you spend a lot of money, and then you get to college, right? Where you have the five twenty nine plan right to help subsidize right tax deferred dollars to go to university, and then basically drops zero right? It's sort of like a very small proportion of the population spends money on ongoing training. And if you spend it it's mostly like, oh work had me do it. And then I expensed it, right? But it's nowhere approaching college tuition. So it sort of. This big sort of college expense in the middle. It feels like as we move into a new world like we want to flatten out, right? We want to give access to piano, teaching for kids, smooth it out earlier in life, and then we sort of smooth it out later in life too. And that's going to require this business model experimentation experimentation and just making that information more accessible, like if I told you could spend fifteen dollars and get ten courses on how to improve your voice. Did you consider it? I am looking for voice instructors right now. Pitt far more than that. But I feel like so many of these ideas or these instructors people oftentimes forget that they this because it's not so and their face on. It's not also done bite sized snacks on their own schedule on their own timeframe. Right. And when you're on platform when you're doing this bite-size lessons, you can do it. I ring warning. Well, I personally can't wait for a lot of the stuff as I mentioned. I love learning new things, and I can't wait to have very compelling products. That are teaching me new things a little more sophisticated than how to replace or not maybe a little less. Should have also saw services of a handyman nearby KC failed. That's true. Right. Lord. There's just so many ways it can monetize a simple video like replacing Darnall not being done today. Oh, yeah. Totally drew like all these how to hold vexes a good chunk of paper who attempt them. Can't do it. Right. And they're willing to. Up in the middle of tools. Right. I give up. All right. Maybe missing. This part navy? I'm missing this dry power. Right. Have done this in half the time. If you had this power, Joel these ideas aren't being thought of right now because it's a business model and avation, right? Think about not just sowing the next course stuffing more odds into your course, than therefore making your video much longer than it needs to be which is the game that a lot of these intents have to play they're being forced to play that game right now give them better ways to monetize what they're selling. And that business model would be good for another age old problem with these education, Marcus places that try to get broad, right? I wanna have all this content. Is that the repeat usage is never as good as the entrepreneur hopes. Right. So you kind of hope that I sell you the piano playing class, and then you'll come to me for filmmaking or whatever it is. And it turns out in a lot of these that, you're almost. Capturing that customer again for the first time, even though they bought a class from you. Right. Yeah. And to this point is actually I wouldn't say never I found a subscription model but for this category. I don't think subscription is necessarily the best model because for me to sign up for a subscription. I have to think I'm gonna take more than one class. I mean, why not instead let me pay per course. And for other courses, if he wanted to push discovery allow me to sample the first ten minutes of a classic free, right or do some other kind of incentive to get me to see the value. And then maybe after two or three courses then sell me something like a subscription where I'm like. Yes, for sure I'm gonna use this multiple times over, but they idea of jumping from day one to push a subscription. I think as a heart business model for this category. It's hard you have to capture the people who would pay upfront for health clubs, right? Which is it's the ask racial me. That will go. The gym all the time, right? Right. Well, thanks for joining us. We're so excited for the future of Ed tech. That is mobile I and AI enabled and isn't just advertising because I want to learn new stuff, I'm gonna learn it all the time. The next thing I think in our house will be clearing clutter. And so it's funny Murray condo has that series on Netflix now. And so. Maybe I should watch it. And maybe there will be a tailor-made startup for that type of stuff thing can offer me help when I get stuck clearing my own crap. So all right. Thanks you too. We'll see you next episode. If you liked what you saw go ahead and comment and subscribe on the bottom, and we'll see you next episode.

China YouTube Asia China Connie Chan Airbnb instructor Palin Steve Martin United States Adam Rifkin Home Depot Frank Chen general partner Pinterest Horowitz Frank Chan Adam I Zee network jen
Thu. 03/07 - Facebook Pivots To Privacy

Techmeme Ride Home

19:10 min | 2 years ago

Thu. 03/07 - Facebook Pivots To Privacy

"The. Welcome to the tech may home for Thursday, March seven twenty nine thousand nine Brian McCullough today Facebook pivots to privacy. Why follows through on suing the US government. Duplex rolls out wide and birds white label scooter scheme, here's what you missed today in the world of text. Yesterday. Mark Zuckerberg posted a piece titled a privacy focused vision for social networking. I could quote at length from the peace link is in the show notes for the full Monty. But let me just quote this small section, and then let's focus on giving you a T L DR. So we can assess what's happened here. Quote. I believe the future of communication will increasingly shift to private encrypted services where people can be confident what they say to each other, stay secure and their messages and content won't stick around forever. This is the future. I hope we will help bring about and quote. So the T L D on all of this. If Mark zuckerberg's stated goals for Facebook for years now have always been openness and sharing at the very least. This piece is signaling a strategic shift not openness, not share everything to the whole world know sharing, but privately with specific people of your choice Facebook, again, he says believes that the future of social is messaging specifically encrypted secure messaging, the concrete promise in Zakar Burg's message is something that they've been signaling for a while now and we've spoken about before unifying Instagram DM's Facebook messenger, and what's happened to a single encrypted messaging service. So from a certain angle, you can read this as Facebook walking away from the news feed. The thing that made it Facebook its primary business model and product and from a certain angle. Get copying stories. The idea of moving to a federal messaging and posts can be read as straight up copying snaps. Original idea with a sprinkling of what's app thrown in and from a certain angle some people are reading this as a defensive play. If all of our apps are one unified product, then you can't break us up or ask us to spin off one of these services. Some people are reading this Facebook saying y'all don't trust us to keep your data secure. Well, no more vacations. We're going to lean into this, seeming weakness and improve on it all the way into we can prove to you that we are a company that is focused on privacy and security. First others are reading this message as a clever faint to avoid regulation sort of like, okay? You don't like what people are sharing on our platform. And we don't want to be in the business of becoming moderators editors. So we're going to shift our platform to direct private communications. So that we don't have to get into the editorial business. As Alex stamos tweeted, quote right now Facebook gets crap from the same people for both invading people's privacy and not policing communications enough. This is the judo move in a world where everything is encrypted and doesn't last long entire classes of scandal are invisible to the media and quote. And some people just flat out don't believe this message at all some people think it's all bluster and no substance, Walt Mossberg. For example, tweeted Mark Zuckerberg today, I believe we should be working towards a world where people can speak privately and live freely knowing that their information will only be seen by who they want to see it. How long has he personally believed this an hour a day, and quote, and in the guardian Alex Hearn wrote, quote Facebook is an advertising business, first and foremost, and one of the most successful ever to exist. But the privacy focused vision Zuckerberg has even a denuded version of privacy would wound that business to the core. The endless scroll of a news feed, the passive consumption of an Instagram story, even the immersive experience of an Oculus VR headset may lend themselves to advertising at scale, but a closed encrypted one to one messaging app doesn't so whether or not Zuckerberg believes what he's saying. The fact that Facebook stock price is bay. Changed on the news of zuckerberg's note, suggests that the people who actually own Facebook, don't they read that letter and decided that their money was perfectly safe where it was from their conclusion it shouldn't be hard to draw your own and quote. Lots of people, by the way, noted something similar if you take Zack's message at face value represents a pivot away from the advertisements in feeds model that has made it so successful hasty Newton writes quote in his post sucker, brick says private encrypted messaging tools will also create room for new business tools, especially ones around payments and commerce the company's current pet. Obsessions. The services will eventually become a platform for many other kinds of private services. He writes, and quote, but as Casey wrote later, let's say you do take Zach at his word and newsfeed becomes a legacy product that indeed means Facebook will need to find essentially an entirely new business model, and unless it's super confident that it can monetize messaging secure messaging, by the way at the same level of success than what will the new model be commerce and payments. Facebook has been trying to crack that nut for over a decade now as we said to Connie Chan last weekend, but then again, think about Facebook seemingly serious. Moves into crypto something that we will talk about this weekend. Maybe there is an outline of deeper plan here, and maybe that plan is to move towards a more diversified pie. As it were a LA the Chinese model that Connie told us about as I tend to do in moments like these I'm going to lean on Ben Thompson here who says actually all of this makes perfect sense. This is he says a privacy cake that Facebook can have and eat too. He notes that Zuckerberg in his message outlined six main things private interactions encryption reducing permanence of content shared sent posted. What have you safety interoperability secure data storage, Ben notes that all of this is a valuable space to own? It's exactly why Snapchat succeeded before Facebook came in and kept its growth. Also, maybe this is a sort of we're going to create an iphone to kill the ipod because the soup. Planting of the ipod is inevitable. So we'll do it before our competitors can quote to the extent the rise of one to one networking is in execrable. The better it is for Facebook that it happened on their properties. Not only does Facebook preserve the ability to advertise on privacy focused platforms. The company can leverage data from Facebook to advertise in its messaging products. It also prevents would be competitors. From capturing leveragable attention and quote. In other words, if Facebook does do what suck says they're moving in a direction that they would need to move in anyway. And if so then all of the other side benefits that people are arguing about are just that side benefits. Facebook already has your data. So presumably it can already monetize messages while securing them. It can also at the same time reap all of the PR and regulatory and even structural benefits that this move would engender and still keep doing what it's always done. But in a slightly different. Way quoting Ben they can very much afford privacy Centric messaging offering in a way that any would be challenged could not privacy. It turns out is a competitive advantage for Facebook, not the cudgel the company's critics hoped. It might be end quote. Ben concludes by writing this, quote, Facebook is not an inherently bad actor it is perfectly reasonable that. The company can be instituting genuinely user friendly changes like end to end encryption even as it furthers its own self interests related Lii and most importantly there needs to be much more appreciation for the anti-competitive tradeoffs inherent in an absolutist approach to privacy. Facebook is doing what it's fiercest critics supposedly want and enhancing its competitive position as a result and quote. One more key thing from that Zuckerberg note in the post yesterday Zach wrote as a part of the efforts to build secure messaging, quote, as we build our infrastructure around the world, we've chosen not to build data centers in countries that have a track record of violating human rights, like privacy or freedom of expression. If we build data centers and store sensitive data in these countries rather than just catching non-sensitive data. It could make it easier for those governments to take people's information, and quote, so that would mean Facebook is not going to do business in China among possibly other places. A senior Facebook source has confirmed that to Ryan Mack at BuzzFeed news. Indeed, the company has no current plans to enter the Chinese market something that would be a huge strategic change for Facebook. Facebook has courted Chinese authorities assiduously for years now quoting Mak still the source. The possibility open making it clear that the company has no plans at the present time to go into China. Soccer tried hard they said, but there's no way to do this quote in the foreseeable future. And quote as William turn joked on Twitter that feeling when you learn Mandarin for nothing and quote. The average interest rate on credit card debt is over eighteen percent APR. Have you looked at your interest rate lately? Refinance your high interest credit card balances and save with a credit card consolidation loan. From light stream get a rate as low as six point one four percent APR with auto pay. The rate is fixed. It will never go up get alone from five thousand two hundred thousand dollars, and there are no fees. You can even get your money as soon as the day you apply when you have good credit. You deserve. Great service. A low interest fixed rate loan from light stream, that's lending uncomplicated. Wanna save even more tech name ride home listeners get an additional interest rate discount? The only way to get this discount is to go to light stream dot com slash ride. That's L I G H T S T R E A M dot com slash ride. Subject to credit approval rate includes zero point five percent auto pay discount. Terms and conditions apply off. For are subject to change without notice. Visit light stream dot com slash ride. For more information. Let me tell you about how medal app helped autre turn team conversations into smart notes. There's a metric ton of valuable information communicated verbally every single day in meetings. Phone calls interviews, but how to capture review and share these moments. Well, otter went to meddle AB with the leading voice transcription technology for multiple voices and medal. Of course, help them create a fun beautiful product for teams to start intuitively sharing data captured in meetings things like notes collaborative details, next steps, etc. Using inline editing and one tap saving the otter app. Interface seamlessly allows users to make up for any of others misinterpretations and meta lab, as they do often used a clean interface with interjections and friendly colors and typography to delight users and represent the building blocks of conversations in an intuitive way that rewards contributions and collaboration mash named otter a top apps for twenty eighteen and the other team got a recent ten million dollars series, a round to continue the mission of making all voice conversations, accessible and searchable. So why not let medal app design something that will prove your concept and land you a new round of financing medal app. Take your napkin sketch all the way to becoming the foundation of the next great unicorn startup, check them out at meta lab dot CO. That's meta lab dot CO. That still mysterious joint health care venture from Amazon, Berkshire Hathaway and J P Morgan. Chase has a name. It will be called haven quoting CNBC. In addition to its new brand the company also unveiled a website with more details about the venture, including a number of areas of focus these include improving the process of navigating the complex healthcare system and accessing affordable treatments and prescription drugs. Haven also said on its website that it's interested in working with clinicians and insurance companies to improve the overall healthcare system suggesting the venture wants to work with existing players such as insurance providers and pharmacy benefit managers rather than up rooting them and quote. As an -ticipant while way has sued the US government challenging the law that bans federal agencies from buying that company's products, quoting CNN this ban. Not only is unlawful, but also restricts Weiwei from engaging and fair competition ultimately harming US consumers, while deputy, chairman gal ping said at a news conference in the company's headquarters of the Chinese city of Shenzhen. He accused congress of acting as judge jury executioner by imposing the ban the Chinese company, which is also a top smartphone maker is asking a US federal court to overturn part of the national defense authorization act, which was signed by President Donald Trump in August while way alleges that a portion of the law, which specifically forbids government agencies from using technology from wa and it's smaller Chinese rival Z T, violates the US constitution by signaling out an individual or group for punishment without trial, quote, the US congress has repeatedly failed to. Any evidence to support its restrictions on while way products gal said we are compelled to take this legal action as a proper and last resort and quote. Remember duplex? That AI assistant feature from Google that debuted to gee whiz reactions, but then caused some people to get weirded out by it all well, Google says it is bringing it's duplex AI restaurant booking assistant to forty three states beginning. Now, the only catch being you have to be a pixel three owner to take advantage of the service reflecting. The general skepticism that duplex has now engendered let me quote from tech crunch in the coming weeks. The service will be rolled out to users on other Android devices as the company continues to tweak the program based on user feedback. Meanwhile, that may or may not give the rest of us time to come to grips with the Qripoli natural interactions of Google's new a I am quote. Finally today. This was apparently not new, but it was news to me. We like to think that the scooter companies are basically running the playbook of the ride hailing companies, right? It certainly looked that way early on when they threw scooters on city streets. And then ask for permission later that certainly sounded like the MO of how the ride hailing firms got to ubiquity or how Airbnb did but Uber lift Airbnb they've all assiduously focused on branding themselves. One of the scooter companies have her in essence is sort of willing to franchise things quoting from the verge operating electric scooter sharing services, expensive and hard the scooters breakdown or they get vandalized or impounded by local law enforcement, scaling that business globally like bird in Lima. Trying to do is even harder. Every scooter company today is operating at a loss, but bird in particular has an interesting plan to spread the gospel of the scooter without going. -pletely bankrupt. It involves selling e scooters to local entrepreneurs providing them with advice and technical support to get started letting them incur all the cost associated with maintenance and operations and then taking a small percentage of each scooter trip. It's called bird platform, which the company originally unveiled last November and quote bird CEO, Travis Vandersanden told the verge that this strategy is designed to allow bird to grow faster bird platform is rolling out in three markets New Zealand, Canada and Latin America, if you're a local entrepreneur there, you can buy your scooters at cost from bird. They'll give you advice and help you get started. And then you run your own show. You can set your own prices. You can even brand the scooters how you please. So it's sort of like white label scooter services in essence, you can do what you want so long as you're not in a market that bird is already operating its own branded services in they simply want what the piece describes as a twenty percent cut. Of each ride and the worst some other interesting details in this piece recently courses, Alison Griswold crunch the numbers on scooter rentals and one market Louisville Kentucky, she found that the median scooter there seventy trips over the course of its lifetime. And that lifespan was only twenty three days. Again, those unit economics do not work at all Vandersanden in the verge piece actually acknowledged that to break even bird at least thanks it needs its scooters to have lice fan of six months. So they have some work to do to get there. But bird is deploying a new more rugged longer-lasting scooter the birds zero quote, we've been hard at work on future hardware as well. Anderson told the verge with even bigger batteries and more rugged is scooters which will circle back on at some point in the future. We're looking at every technology, you could imagine if it makes sense from an economic standpoint. Ideally, improves the writer experience, then it's a no brainer. And. Offer today. Thanks for the kind wishes on our podcast anniversary yesterday. We've got big news to announce tomorrow, at least I hope so still working out some of the last minute kicks. But guess what? Many of you have asked for it. So if all goes well tomorrow, we're going to roll out an ad free podcast feed. Details to come tomorrow. Talk to you then.

Facebook Mark Zuckerberg Ben Thompson US Instagram China Google Brian McCullough Zach Walt Mossberg Alex Hearn Soccer Zakar Burg LA Alex stamos Airbnb Connie Chan
The U.S.- China Tech Battle: Social Commerce, Super Apps, and the Future of TikTok

Business Casual

44:18 min | 1 year ago

The U.S.- China Tech Battle: Social Commerce, Super Apps, and the Future of TikTok

"Business casual is brought to you by just works just works as here to support the small business superheroes working hard to protect their companies and take care of their teams with simple software and expert support for payroll benefits, compliance and hr just works takes the guesswork out of running a business in good times and in bad. They're here to help you do it all with seamless tools for managing remote teams and round the clock customer support for you and your team. During these challenging times. We're in this together. Learn more at just works dot com slash business casual. Hey everybody and welcome to business casual the podcast for Morning Brew Answering your biggest questions in business I'm your host and Brew Business Editor Kinsey Grants and now I've got quick. Ask Make sure that you are subscribed to business casual wherever you're listening, so you don't miss an episode and now let's get into it. So I feel comfortable confident, even saying that most of us have experienced a shift in our screen time since covid nineteen hit. If you're like me, that means more hours per week. Watching impeccably made up, teenagers dance to the beyond Remix of savage on Tiktok, but even if you're not like, you've probably started using consumer tech products like Tiktok, and plenty of others a little differently in the past several months since the shutdown we've come to. To rely on consumer tech to be a means of communication and avenue of entertainment, and in a lot of cases away to shop online, and while it might feel revolutionary to buy a pair of sunglasses without leaving the instagram APP. It is not the concept of one APP serving a multitude of purposes isn't a new concept at least not in Asia. Where so-called Super APPS are more the rule than the exception so today I am. AM intent on figuring out how trends that are the norm in China and other Asian countries can inform what comes next for Consumer Tech stateside we're going to talk about the social commerce aspect, the bigger picture themes of technology migration, and yes, we might even hit on Tiktok in the possibility of abandoned the United States my guest today is Connie Chan general partner. Andriessen Horowitz where she's worked. Since two thousand eleven sourcing deals working with startups. Startups and most importantly, for today's purposes, leading the team's efforts to better connect Silicon Valley with Asia Connie. Thank you so much for being here. I'm excited to talk today. Thank you I am a huge fan of warning Rousseau. I am so honored to be here today. Well, thank you and you being a fan of morning. Brill is absolutely amazing. We were talking before that I think we should put that on our website as testimonial. From Connie See so thank you so much, and you know part of what you do is observe products and business models that are working in China to see if they might work in the US right right exactly. Yeah, so I WANNA use that framework some today to talk about some of the more specific trends that we've been watching in terms of consumer tech here in the US I think one of the most interesting trends that we've been watching. Is this idea of social commerce of using social social? Social media platforms. I. Say quote to buy things to make purchases to buy goods, and it especially feels like that is pertinent today because to me that might be one aspect of consumer tax that covert is actually bring a lot of innovation to the fore in so with that said I. Want to start with definitions because they think that they might be mentally helpful. As we have this conversation, we'll do our best not to give away the entire conversation as we do these definitions next minute or so. But quickly. Can you just define when we talk about Consumer Tech? What does that mean to you know, is it? I message isn't like a blender. What is Consumer Tech Consumer Tech is anything that's basically like a non enterprise company in my mind. We particularly focus more on software oriented companies. It's not to say we wouldn't invest in a blender. But, we're much more inclined to invest in something that looks like an Airbnb or looks like a Pinchas okay, and what about social commerce? What does that mean to you? Social Commerce basically means to me that you are leveraging other people that you know, or perhaps even you don't know but that you follow to do product discovery or to shop together in a social engaging experience and I think what social really solves around commerce specifically is the discovery problem where I do a ton of shopping on Amazon and embarrassing amount of shopping on Amazon, but yet Amazon's product recommendations to me I very very rarely. Click on him and social commerce is a new way. To think about bringing products. You might like directly to you. Yeah, it's an interesting point when I think about shopping on Amazon I know what that sponsored tag me and I know that the first three or five results that come up in an Amazon clerk. It's before the search right I always go to Amazon with something. A search I never just sit there on the homepage. China think Oh, you even mean like the when you go to Amazon Dot Com and they say. Summer that's the key part of social discovery. It's about getting you to buy something you never thought you needed to buy. Because you see your friends buying it or because he saw an influence. They're using it and you're like. Oh, I, actually really want that bookmark maker even though I read everything on a kindle right like it's about getting you to buy something that you never thought to go to a store to shop for. Freight that's so interesting and I definitely have fallen in that trap of buying whatever a certain influence or helped me. And I'm I'm not. I'm not ashamed of it. I think that we have people that we trust in these influencers fears, and we can be sometimes not always we can be really discerning with who we follow and who trust in what influencers we want to to engage with. Last definition because I think it's GonNa. Come up some today super APP yeah yeah super something. I've been talking about for for a while now and the poster child I always hold up as we chat, which is a messaging chat communication APP that is basically everywhere in Asia and China specifically, and it's an APP that started out with just communicating with friends, but very quickly has now blossomed to kind of an operating system like experience where you use, we chat to interact with businesses, services, celebrities news reporters. Media outlets and so forth, and so you can basically live your entire online life inside which I if you really wanted to `super APP is something that takes you into the APP for one primary use case, which we has cases chat, but then quickly introduces you to other kinds of businesses and services that are not directly. Tied to that very first product east case. It's so interesting, and it's something that I think we're GonNa talk about at length today, the idea of these super APPs. There are a couple of big questions that I. Do want to answer first of all how consumer tech trends are evolving in recent months recent years since lockdown second how they're contributing to the possibility of these super apps here in the US. What does it mean for existing businesses? Businesses third what the relationship between consumer tech in the US and is There's a lot on our plate and I I know that we're GONNA. Get to all of this excited to do it. I want to kick things off with that first question that I posed. How have consumer tech trends evolved in recent months in your view? What do you think has changed since Cova? Nineteen became a thing. Yeah Cova has unquestionably accelerated a lot of trends specifically like Ed Tech. It's so obvious to end new working parent. The strength and also the very clear weaknesses in today's current offerings and people are becoming more video. Native people are spending more time in short video and long video, but I think stepping back. There's also a bunch of other trends that have been happening in recent years that are adding to this big change in in user behavior. At one we have more smart devices in the home by I have several Alexa Echo devices and my home. I am now listening to more things. I'm now listening to more podcasts with. It's completely game changing experience for me to use air pods and wireless ear buds, versus using plugged in had side, and so I will now start using things that are audio only more. There's more of a desire for people to work from home or elsewhere on their own terms and schedule. There's a lot of different things happening in. Society right now. That's causing a big behavior shucked. What about the idea? Video is really interesting to me I? Think probably because you know. We're recording this using a video sharing type situation here that records, our body over an audio product can see a. we can use this video. People have seen me on the floor of my bedroom home recording. How many months now? Do. You think that this this video first communication as we do, try to get back to some semblance of normal. Do you think that this video? I idea is going to stick around meaningfully for sure I think. Is Still Way underexplored and can be a new kind of backbone platform for building all kinds of new services and features think about building things on top of zoom or that kind of equivalent You'RE GONNA. Start saying video more shopping more an ED tech more in everything online really, and it's because video just gives you more information. Right if you say a picture is worth a thousand words, if I'm shopping again on Amazon and I'm reading a description, it is very different to not be able to see a picture of the product versus just reading the text right adding video. It's giving you even more information than that. You can see real size comparison of the stroller to that other stroller. You can get a sense for what that. That dress looks like on the back. You can have a better sense of what the fabric quality looks like. Video just gives you much more information, and it's more fun to consume like I love the fact that I can see you. I'm recording this podcast and I feel like it makes it so much more fun and personable and relatable than if I had only done it through video, sorry audio. Right exactly it's definitely a lot more human. You can see the expression on someone's face and I'm grateful that we have video tools especially now because it that that's a huge part of this job is understanding no body language when you're speaking to someone and having a conversation with them, what piques their interest most? When you think of what the next big thing as what the next big innovation is within this video space? Do you have any sort of idea? I mean ed? Ed Tech is a fantastic example, but if we think about something like like zoom, is there a way to disrupt zoom to make a better product or make something that goes on top of it? If you had to pinpoint what it would be? Yeah, I mean there's an investment of Rs. That I'm extremely excited about called. Run the world and I'm sure a lot of folks have realized in the last couple of months. They are not going to physical in person conferences anymore. But yet staring at a a Webinar type of link for hours of day. It's not that engaging. You're not getting that hallway conversation. You're not getting to talk to the person who normally would have sat next to you. There is no open bar right after the sessions are ended where you actually make all the truly memorable relationships at those in person conferences and run their world is taking their social DNA that they have from working at facebook instagram and replicating all the social relationship building components of conference, so giving you the ability to kind of have that side conversation giving you the ability to literally have like. Like a virtual cocktail hour and taking the fact that it's online and turning it from something. That's a okay. We're GONNA work with this all my constraint to actually becoming a strength so for example when I go to a conference in real life I. Don't really always know which attendee is should be connecting with I. Try and do my research beforehand, but oftentimes you just don't know who's going to show up and then for me again like I'm actually introverted, so I had to then muster up the strength to try to insert myself into that awkward circle, who's already talking to each other and hope that. and then I might find out that I have nothing in common with them, and then I extract myself from the conversation either in an online world you'd have perfect information of everyone is before you even have that conversation. Right and on top of that think about if you had a platform that could then even intelligently recommend who you should talk to and say, Hey, you to actually have a lot in common and here are things you can talk about if you don't know what kind of icebreaker to us to start the conversation that kind of stuff really helps introverts, a really helps people to aren't naturally good at that in person networking still build all those relationships online and again taking it back to that kind of global example now you can attend all kinds of conferences regardless of what time zone you're in right, so they had a conference recently that literally had attendees from over forty countries at the same time. That's crazy. I mean. It's a dream. Right that you can use one piece of technology to accomplish so much more. Then you know I it media handy example, but that instagram was created to be like a photo editing APP. Now it's a communication platform. It's we're going to talk about shortly. An ecommerce platform so the the ability to take one strength and translate that into so many other places. You know so many other things you can. Can do whether. That's helping people at a conference or being the actual platform that they use to to hold the conference it all hinges on the ability of these pieces of consumer technology to to do more to do more than just one thing to serve more than one purpose, so we're gonNA. Take a quick break to hear from our sponsor when we come back. We're going to talk more about why that's important. Small businesses have unique needs, and despite the current uncertainty, one thing that remains unchanged is the importance of having the right people on your team. So when Your Business is ready to make that next higher lincoln jobs can help by matching your role with qualified candidates to help you find the right person quickly. Why let linked in Japan your search for? They have more than six hundred ninety million members worldwide. That's a lot of people to choose from so linked in will help by screening candidates to make sure that they have the skills you're looking for. If you're keeping track. That's both quantity and quality. You're ready to find the right person fast. It's time to connect with linked in jobs. You can even pay what you want. And the first fifty dollars off your first job post just visit Lincoln Dot com slash business casual again. That's Lincoln. Dot Com slash business casual to get fifty dollars off your first job post, terms and conditions apply. And now back to the conversation with Connie Chan Right Connie so we talked about it a little bit before. We're verging on the territory of Super. APPS here again. This is part of your work I. I I am like a new fan of super. APPs after doing research for the episodes out part of your wearing that I find really interesting. I watched a couple presentations that you gave some speeches that you gave about it and I think. Think that this is so intriguing can't believe that we haven't thought about it more earlier here but basically the concepts that there's not for that, but there's also one APP that could be for all of that, so tell me more about the idea of APPs as an operating system. This is something I find really really interesting. Yes, so imagine if you have an application, but then when you want to go, do another a service or access. Another company or website, or whatever it is rather than having to open up your browser. Or go to the APP store and download new APP, you could access a lot of information and services that you would want all inside of the application. You already spending time. so imagine again. If you were an I message or a messaging APP from there, you can directly go order your food. Go pay for your food from there. You could directly pay for your traffic bill from there. You could get a message from a restaurant saying that your food is ready to be picked up or whatever and basically spend your time in one application as opposed to having to have multiple applications open. And it's very popular concept, in China because one again we chat really pioneered this idea of an APP as an operating system, but two they also have incorporated a very important ingredient that helps super APPs. Flourish, which is which had also has payments. People are using we chat to send money to each other people are using we chat to pay for businesses and services, and once you have an application that wants to be a super that also has payment enabled. Think about it as single sign on for the web. Imagine every time you go to a website, they are ready can know a little bit about you personalized that experience and you are just one click checkout for every ECOMMERCE site I would end up buying a whole lot more stuff if I did not have to import my credit card every single time since some ways, I guess it's a good thing. It's not popular. But imagine again. A super is something that allows you to have that kind of single sign on personalized experience for your entire online browsing experience. And the reason why believe that end users will eventually realize why it's a positive for them. Is. I am guilty of having lots of browsers open on my PC laptop. At all times. I have multiple crumbs open right now. Each one has probably fifteen taps maybe twenty. And I almost use TAD's as my to do list and I don't clear him out all the time, right. Using tabs on the mobile phone sucks. Right when I am on my mobile browser and the they've they've tried to innovate, and they've tried to make it better, but it still just really hard, and they're just constrained by the size of that screen, so it's not even you know the company's faults, but using a tab experience on the phone is very hard and the reason why thinks super absolute became much more obvious in Asia is Asia and China specifically as more of a mobile I almost mobile, only society for you have companies and developers developing APPS, and not necessarily even having a company one site. It's that extreme where you can literally spend your entire day on your phone. and therefore of Europe I experienced on the Internet is on your phone or only your phone? Then how do you experience the rest of what the world wide? Web has to offer right. You're not gonNA always, WanNa do it through a browser through having multiple taps through having multiple websites. In fact having it in one place, even if it's only sometimes eighty or ninety percent of functionality you want can sometimes be good enough. I I've got I've got a lot of questions here so the first one that I wrote down here my notes, the idea of competition comes to mind when we think about the integration of something like a to pay in a super APP. If you know if you could pay using we chat to do everything on, you know across platforms. What does that do? In terms of competition for payment services like like a pay power event mill? Do all of those startups that have become pretty richly valued? Just go away if we have these super APPS. Do they get integrated into them? They can definitely be integrated into them. Imagine if you are as an example, say an Uber You could pay by credit card, but maybe eventually you can also pay by pay, pal or anything else right? He basically just need to have some kind of payment mechanism tied to the application so that you are one tap purchase away from everything else. Okay and this notion of. People coming to view this as a positive in their lives, something that makes their lives easier at least here in the United States a big question mark is how much we want companies to know about us and I think that you could make the argument that it's just a part of American culture right now, but. Do. You think we will ever get to a place where the every day American consumer feels comfortable going somewhere and maybe being more and more of a willing participant in a company knowing what they want before they got there. I. Mean It's definitely true. That privacy is probably. Much more talked about in the Western world. However I've also seen historically a lot of people end up choosing convenience, and they may say that they want one thing, but then their actual behavior shows something completely different I think it's remains to be seen as definitely an open question, but I do think users value, convenience, and super APPs are the convenience. It's all about taking away the friction of having to go down. Live a new APP having to sign up having to verify your account having to put in your payment credentials and then navigate that APP to exactly which page you WANNA be on. Can you cut all of that out and then allow businesses to truly be one two three clicks away from completing transaction. Yeah, I think that the the example of opening up new tabs on mobile and it being such a headache is such a such a good one because everybody can can understand that knows how annoying it can't be. Describe it, and you can feel the pain of it right, yeah! And yet you can also visualize on your computer like I'm literally staring at twenty thirty tabs open at any given time. Actually, everything! MEOW! You have to be. But I do think the average person does have multiple tops. It's not that extreme, but they do have multiple taps, though right and imagined on your phone every time. You think to just open a new tab on your browser. How would you do that on your phone? It's not nearly as easy and so if an APP can just kind of put those things at your fingertips, and make fewer taps for you to get to where you want to get to that's better in most cases and especially if you look at an example like we have because there's also a social element there again, is this idea of discovery? Like discovery I still feel is underexplored, not for commerce, but for all kinds of things right? How are we sharing with each other? What our favorite products are our favorites? Services are right now. Because we don't have great ways to do that, we might share it in very small circles. We might even be emailing or texting just very very close friends and family, but is there a way that we can make that discovery element bigger through things like Super Apps? I think that's certainly possible. What do you think the closest thing we have to a super happen? The US is right now. I mean you talked about Instagram I mentioned Uber Briefly Buber I. Do think as one to watch, and it's a non intuitive one. Because again it's it's and transportation, and yet when you see them. Pulling Uber eats back into the main APP. Or with the recent announcement of post mates, you can imagine using Uber for all kinds of things eventually. This is the secret of a super APPs which is, you can take something that's a high frequency used case or long-term use case. And you can lead Gen for all kinds of other services and an example I talk about that's big in Asia. Is a company called Me Thuan? He use it to order food delivery. And yet a couple of years ago, they were on some small screen. Real estate space a button that as you to Kotel Nights. And now they are used book. All kinds of hotels across China and they actually recently book the most hotel it's. Across any trouble provider in China. If you think about what that means is, you can take something like food delivery that can be historically a very low margin business can even be money losing business, honestly, and then you can lead Gen for high margin services and businesses at basically almost no customer acquisition costs right. You're using something. An application that already has distribution already has traffic, and you're now introducing other products and services that you can monetize. Yeah, it seems like such a no brainer as a way to insulate your business from from unknown and diversify your revenue stream right. Think about all the companies that have historically been driven once you think about becoming more of a soup. Wrap your understanding of the end users what they're willing to buy increases, which ultimately makes your ads worth even more fired. We doing this I guess is the question you know. Why was holding back? US consumer tax from replicating this in a larger scale way I do think you're starting to see early signs of it and typically, when I look at trends taking off in Asia I think of applying like three to five year time lag. For. When it hits more of the Western countries, but I also do think a lot of it does come down to design and also historical preferences user behavior ships that still need time to change right because in the Western world, many of us will still start with an online laptop pc type, browser experience, and then when you go to the application, you kind of already know what the application can do. Can you therefore can figure out how to navigate it? It. It's very different designing for something where you only have the application experience, and you have to introduce someone to all kinds of services, a different on boarding experience, different design experience also just even different way you organize your company when you're creating these Super Apps, you have one release date for all kinds of business lines, and that's a very different way to manage your engineering team than having five six different apps that can all have different update cycles. I imagine it would just take more talent. You need more people it depending on how you structure your team, it's. Possible, when you think about the the way that our behaviors changed in the time that it takes behaviors to change to adopt a new technology, one one piece of text that comes to mind is it's talk to me. The way that Tiktok took off in the last I would say even. Year or less has been incredible to watch. We did an episode about Tiktok in. November and felt like we were on the cutting edge of this new technology. We were just talking about monitoring Tiktok and now that is like completely bananas to think about you know that that this APP was ever going to be something. That was still a new piece of tech for so many people. Now it's a huge part of my day. It's A. A huge part of so many Americans days you know. Does that feel like it has potential to gain steam to integrate other services to do something like to add some sort of higher margin business to what Tiktok does now for sure so the Tiktok that you see in the US has a subset of features of what the Tiktok looks like in China. And the biggest use case that I'd say that. The has a big discrepancy is the lack of the livestream e-commerce, and so in China, you're ready using apps like a Tiktok or quite so which is another short video application to buy all kinds of things clothes? Beauty products, but also food. It's really funny. You'll have these farmers who create these huge followings. They create these short videos of their oranges, and they had it in front of you, and they squeeze it and then late at night. When you're watching the video, you just really want those oranges. You order a box right there and then, or you'll see fishermen showing you how they catch the fish, and it's truly farm-to-table. You see what? What their life is like on the farm, and you get a much better sense of the produce and again it's food that you have to buy anyways from a grocery store. Why not support these local farmers? These local fruit growers the idea of buying things on Tiktok. Obviously, the the tick tock that we have here is a call it a watered down version of what it you know, the form that it exists in Asia. When we think about using tick talked, make purchases. What does that look like in the future to yield the tools are being added on slowly I would say But what does it look like in the next year? So do you do see a future in which there would be a meaningful ECOMMERCE actually to Tiktok? Yeah I think there will be more meaningful ecommerce across social companies in general, not just talk. But all kinds, the companies that were historically not commerce, maybe historically more entertainment even can now introduce more elements of shopping and again it's that key understanding that video is still very under monetize and underexplored, because video a really great way to sell stuff I. Don't know about you, but when I grew up, I watched infomercials for fun sometimes. QVC has been around forever. They really worked on me, too, and again. It's because video just gives you more. Information and commerce is all about discovery. And giving you more confidence to make that purchase because again. You don't have that free return. Easy return policy like you do on shopping on Amazon right so you have to have more confidence that you're going to like the product before you click by. And videos just a great way to do that. Because you can answer questions in real time, you can get a sense of what the product really looks like. Just think about on boxing videos on tiktok. Only purchases distinct about your bloggers who are really big on beauty or fashion, they can all be doing product discovery for you. It's also really good for how to videos are gadgets that in particular need demonstrations when you see that cool gadget that helps your cell phone. Not Break or helps you carry your phone with you at all times. Again, a product I never would have thought to go search for on Amazon, but yet I might look at it. It's pretty cool less than thirty bucks. I might just click by right there and then so connie I have to wonder what happens to the Amazons. The shop of is if this pivot video does come to fruition. Did these big more traditional since y brands and companies go to the wayside today adapt. They do something differently. What is look like for them? By what hope to everyone jumps into video because video? Honestly just a really good way to sell stuff. And I do think you're already starting to see that I mean as you look at Amazon. They are doing more things with video. I see many more video examples. What I'm scrolling through a list of even results when I'm searching for something right and so I do think more people are just gonNA realize. Hey I need to have video if I'm going to do commerce. And live is a step beyond that live videos. A whole step beyond that, but people are also going to learn that. When you add video to shopping APPs, you are increasing. The time spent and the APP. And inevitably that will always mean that you end up buying more stuff. So I, mean people are spending time on these APPs? These shopping, even if I look at like Ali, Baba's Taba live APP. They they treat it almost like they're watching a video entertainment after spending that much time on it right and then because you're spending so much time watching. What is both entertainment but also shopping? You end up converting a lot more and you do have happy customers. It's not that you're taking advantage of them because they do have more confidence on those products before they buy them so again. It's think about it as you're increasing the time in the APP. If you add these elements video, so I do think even the incumbents are going to have to respond and realize. Hey. I need to get better at hovering true multimedia experience because if I give you a text description of any product on Amazon, unless it's a brand new already or product you already by, it's never gonna be as good as if I just give you a photo of it. And video is always going to do the same thing. It's always gonNA be better than the photo. You're always going to get more information and short video really forces the crater the brand give you that information, and as condensed away as fun of away as possible right like one thing about Tiktok visits actually fun. How often do you use that to describe really honestly any application? You're using outside of a game. Think about when you make shopping fun what? What that can transform and do around social buying behavior great. Let's talk about these trends I think that this is a huge part of the conversation. Do we see things like that happening in Asia? large-scale when we think about social commerce, is it the norm? It definitely is and I'd say. Social Commerce can happen in a bunch of ways right one I can again happened on platforms like Tiktok or a quite so where you're following an influence. I can also happen where you are buying a product, and then as you get more of your friends to buy, it drives the prices down more innovative more game fide kind of group purchase products are happening, and also that kind of screen, share, example, or even choosing items that I recently browsed on Talbot which again is kind of like they're. They're China. Ebay or Amazon, and then getting my friends a feedback on it all of those things already exist and are pretty widely used. In China. You talked in the beginning here about the three to five year kind of waiting period before trends make their way to the states from Asia. When we think about globalization it, it makes me wonder why it takes so long. What's the migration process like for these tech ideas and platforms and Super Apps and what have you? Why does the migration take as long as it does? Do you think? I'll I'll I do think developing countries and developed countries behave differently again because some are more mobile mobile I and some are still more PC I and that changes how people design products how people do the on boarding and I also think it's user behavior expectations right like if I gave everyone in the Western world. Chinese soup apps today it would feel like a like a carnival experience. There's too much might overwhelming so in some ways you still have to kind of ease that transition and westernized concept to users out here, and so that does take time so the big question that comes to mind when I'm thinking about all of this, because these APPs great great, if we could integrate all of this and remove all this friction and make our lives easier and just change our behaviors a little bit. I just have to wonder about regulation here in the United States. States especially when it comes to these big tech platforms. That's a huge question mark especially the summer. Whoever becomes the next we chat here in the United States. Is it a welcoming enough environment for that? Actually happen to achieve the scale of chat. I have to wonder if it is yeah I mean if you look at the penetration of a lot of existing social players today, it is also extremely high in the Western world right and they also know a lot of information about you, and it's just that they used to monetize it with ads. They know a lot about your behavior. They already know a lot about who you talk to what you think about what you like. looking at and they monetize that with ads historically and now ecommerce just a new way to monetize I'm that kind of information and understanding of you and if you think about an end user perspective? I would love to see fewer ads. Right and I would love to see more personalized and said recommendations that are things I, actually welcome and things I actually would potentially want to buy because I see that as more positive additive to me versus something that blatantly looks like just an at and we touched on it briefly earlier in the conversation, but we in the United States are still trying to get more comfortable with the notion that these tech platforms know so much about us, but that's just reality they just do They have known for A. A, long time I think it's come to. The forefront is a bigger issue in recent weeks, especially, the conversation surrounding Tiktok so I have to ask. What is your stance here on recent conversations about possibly banning tiktok in the United States? Do you think that it actually is a national security issue? How much information a company that has a Chinese parent company knows about us well, I think regulation of technology is going to be very country specific, and so whether or not there will be bands of certain applications. Applications here or in other countries I think is unknown to everyone quite honestly, but when I people to focus on learn about Asia, the key is not to learn about specific companies to learn about business models and to learn about consumer needs human emotional needs that are universal and practical, and not just specific to any one given country, and so the key learning about Tiktok is not tiktok itself, but it's the power of what an A. I. Driven. APP can look like it's the power of what a new application. Application that allows new influencers to still go viral, because it's so hard to become big on youtube right now. It's so hard to get big on instagram right now. What that can do what kind of hope that can bring to new creators right? Those are the key learnings to take away when you look at an Asia App when you're learning about microbiome -bility as an example when you saw at takeoff in China I, you could see. That's not a China specific need any city that has big traffic issues. You will see that need for micro mobility for a new last mile solution, and so yes, it makes sense that even a country like the US are countries in Europe would want a solution like lime or scooters or so forth there are lots of human emotion, needs that just from sheer number of experiments that run because there are so many startups that are well funded in China that help you identify these new human emotional needs, and then so my job is basically taking those learnings and insights, and saying okay, which ones of those human emotional needs are universal. Loneliness yet. Universal problem, not being able to find other friends that have similar interests outside of dating. Yeah, universal problem, and how can you solve that? In the US our current incumbent solving that? No, not necessarily and then, where are those new opportunities? So, if so, many of these human emotional needs are universal. How come we have this narrative of its the US versus China in the tech sphere. Honestly the those are a those are stories that I do think unfortunately, psychology drives us to want to read about and want to hear. But again just if you take it from a pure product, perspective I just see these as different product, learnings, different business model learnings, and why not learn from all of the companies that are being created? In other parts of the world, it's not even just China. There are really cool companies coming out of Southeast Asia really cool business models coming out of India other places that are also mobile I, that are also mobile only where young people are growing up just on their smartphones, and not on their laptops. You're GONNA see innovation and those parts of the world to, and so the reason why I think developing countries are to watch is because the armour mobile, naked and mobile native requires you to think about business and monetization differently. Having ads on your mobile phone is a lot more annoying than ads on my laptop browser. Right though on the browser. I of just tune them out on the phone. You can't takes up half your screen. And so if you're in a mobile first world, you're pushed to not rely as much on ads. You are forced to think of new ways to monetize. All right well I mean Connie that was super insightful, and thank you so much for your transparency and the analysis was was great. I. Think that in general there's a lot more still to learn about things like discovery and and human behavior, and definitely interested in this new era of of social commerce, how it affects people on both the social and the commerce side of things. There's a lot of questions still be asked and answered, but for now we are going to move into some rapid fire. Have a little bit of fun because we've. We've asked you hard questions here so I'm taking out our business casual wheel. We're GONNA. Take it for a quick spin and see what you get. Right. All right, so it landed on or truth. To. How do you study algorithms without getting Algorithm D-? Is there a way to be objective when when trying to understand? The way. This is working without knowing everything about. Honestly like when I play with applications like tech, talk and I try and understand how great their algorithms are. I will create a I will delete the APP. I will reopen F- and I will just look different kinds of things and almost create different kinds of personas and just see how quickly can catch on, and it's good catching on. I've had feeds where it's largely art videos and demonstrations, where you can't even see the person's face, I also will sometimes have feeds where it's largely dance videos, and means sometimes I'll get a bunch of fintech products right where people are teaching you how to Hustle on the side. So I think like when you're looking at algorithms, the key is how quickly does it learn? And that's why I get so excited about something. Not Not talk specifically good more. This new era of consumer APPs that are thinking more about personalization and recommendations because. I mean I love using youtube and I watched so many videos on Youtube, but I've been doing that for fifteen years and yet on their recommendations they miss most of the time and I may click one of ten. Maybe ray and on Amazon again like I shall way too much on Amazon. And their product recommendations for me almost never convert to actual purchases. So it's the idea that consumers are going to want more personalization, because that ultimately does end up with higher retention, higher engagement more transactions all right. That makes sense right. Take another spin around the wheel. Landed on. If you build it so if you could make an APP with absolutely no limits, you had all of the resources all of the talent in the world. What would you build? A depends if my goal is to try and make money, or if it depends if I'm. to raise money, or if I'm trying to discreet something that I think is fun. So I think my answer would really change based off all of those things. I mean like honestly I just wanted to have fun like I I would love having more. A are type of experiences augmented reality. You know I, i. read a bunch of kids books to my kids now and being able to see for example, dinosaurs, giraffes like superimposed in front of your house. Those are really cool experiences I. Even enjoy. That are really fun, but again like if I'm thinking about business, model might answer differently so. That makes us that'd be no be awesome for for parent and for child, so we'll we'll check back and maybe later with the we'll do most profitable idea. Go down the list what you've got. Him But Connie thank you so much for coming on business casual for sharing these insights with us I really really appreciate this conversation and I learned so much. Thank you, thank you so much for having me. Today we're talking wireless ear buds, and as something of an audio expert, I feel singularly qualified to be singing. The praises of Rais Khan's wireless year buds to all of you, not only are these babies away less clunky than my old headphones. They're also incredibly easy to set up. In about three seconds I was jamming out to my no judgment Christmas in July playlist. Sound good while here this like everything. Ray Khan makes their wireless ear. Buds are about half the price of other premium brands that includes their newest model. Model the everyday e twenty five year buds with six hours of playtime, seamless Bluetooth Pairing, and if like me, your ear shape is best described as eccentric. They come with five separate attachments to help your ear. Buds fit perfectly. There are the perfect portable way to get my Christmas music, fix or the best way I know to tune out producer Josh. Get fifteen percent off your order at by Ray Khan dot com slash B. that's by ray con dot com slash M, B. for fifteen percent off rake, wireless ear buds. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of business casual. The conversation with Connie got me thinking. Should Tiktok be banned in the United, states, it's a controversial topic and I want you to weigh in, so join the conversation on twitter and share your thoughts. I'm at Kinsey Grant. That's at K. I. N. S. E. Y.. G. R. A. N., T. and I can't wait to hear from you. See you next time.

Amazon Asia United States China Tiktok instagram Connie Tiktok Consumer Tech Consumer Tech Connie Chan Ed Tech China youtube Airbnb Europe Business Editor
Meta

Akimbo: A Podcast from Seth Godin

33:16 min | 2 years ago

Meta

"In college i briefly served on the committee on committees years later. I gave a speech at the association for associations and you've probably guessed but this is a podcast about podcasts. Hey it seth and this this is a kimbro will be back in a second after this message judge from our sponsor. Hi i'm new leaker. Radway host of a new podcast called raising rebels as an kimball listener listener. I know you're someone who's interested in changing. The culture on raising rebels were interested in shifting the culture to raising rebels is is a podcast about a press parents raising free children on the show we talk about everything from plates and co-parenting to money and mental. Oh health subscribe to raising rebels today and join the conversation podcasts. I probably don't have to explain what they are. You're listening to one. There are seven hundred thousand podcasts currently available to anyone with an app that let's listen to podcasts. This is a podcast about why they are so poorly monetize where they are going who is listening any and what the future holds for this new fast growing form of media most of the stats. I'll be sharing with you are on the show notes notes page at akimbo dot link from a long detailed report from legion andrew chen and connie chan so here we go. We'll begin again with this. Podcasts are growing even faster than you expected. Twenty five percent of the population of the united states listened since two at least one podcast every week and if you're one of those weekly listeners which is twenty five percent of the population. You're spending on on average six and a half hours a week listening to podcasts. There is no medium. I am aware of that has grown at that pace with the exception of browsing the internet. I figured that most of the people who were listening to podcasts tests were listening in their car turns out. Sixty percent of the people who listen to podcasts are doing it at home or at work and only three percent or doing it <unk> at the gym leaving the car and other activities. I have regularly seen uber and lift drivers who obviously have a smartphone smartphone in their car listening to the radio instead and i wonder if you're in your car all day and you could listen to streaming music nick or free podcasts. Why on earth would you listen to a._m. Radio but that's part of what's going on here is that we are seeing a cultural troll and intellectual schism about how people are consuming this medium. The first thing to understand is that it is much more popular on iphones than other phones partly because the original popular podcast listening up was built right into the iphone and partly because since the iphone is a luxury good the people who bought it are more likely to be spending their time looking for new forms of media looking for new ideas challenging themselves because dernie affiliates they like the idea that they have this expensive device and they're using it to listen to the new stuff so that skews the demographics the graphics of the people who are listening to podcasts so at one end. You've got people who are listening to sports radio on a._m. Or listening to top forty freddie station at the other extreme you've got people who are listening to an eleven our podcast about jenga's con nonetheless. The letter from the pope is one of those communications that clear chris thinking about converting to christianity the letter might have talked him out of it because the letter translated four different times the john of plano kartini hands to the new mongol ruler is is untranslatable when he reads it and by the way they have found this exact letter and the response in the vatican's records and when you read it the first thing you think of is that it's the most idiotic letter you've ever seen written to anyone who's totally unfamiliar with the christian doctrine because almost the entire letter is this attempt to explain the divinity of christ and the trinity and the virgin birth and all all this kind of stuff but it's not written like you're speaking to someone who doesn't know about it. It's written like you're speaking to someone. In your own flock who's heard the story a million times but at some point in every conversation about media we end up talking about money and money has driven even the media in our lives and it's the media in our lives that has driven the culture so one reason we are so fraught brought and filled with fear about public events is cable news cable news makes money when people tune in people people tune in when they are afraid when there is a situation when there is a crisis or at the very least a fight so what do the cable people news people do they invent the fight they invent the fear because that gets more attention and more attention kevin gets them more money. If cable news were more like n._p._r. Which means that they're not selling ads and they're or not dependent on ratings. I think the tone of the culture would be different that what we're doing is filling our lives with link link bait and click bait and arguments and noise because the media landscape makes money by creating those things and yet podcasts podcasts sure there are a few true crime podcasts their podcasts that are cliffhangers of hangers. There are podcasts that are designed to get stressed out but with the exception of those podcasts are what like the bookstore they are filled with thoughtful conversations. Among people who care about specific topics is is there money in it so let's break that down a little bit in two thousand nineteen. There's going to be five hundred fifteen. Million dollars spent sponsoring u._s. based podcasts about half a billion dollars. It sounds like a lot of money until you realize it's only a third of how much money money is spent running ads at the movie theater ads at the movie. Theater is a three times bigger business than all all of podcasting in the u._s. Put together and the key sentences this one when we divided out podcasts monetize on a ties at one penny per listener our so for every hour that someone is listening to a podcast and advertisers spends spends a penny now without context. It's hard to know if that's a lot her little so. Here's your context for radio. It's eleven incense more than ten times. As much televisions thirteen cents not much more the internet twenty four cents and my theory there is because you're clicking a lot of stuff over the course of the hour it would be like changing the channel on your tv every six seconds magazines and get an astonishing fifty seven cents per hour spent by a reader and newspapers seventy two cents. So how do we explain this well. I have a couple of theories and these are mine not from the report theory number one. Please note that the amount you get goes up the older. Your medium is with one exception so newspapers the oldest medium get the most host per hour followed by magazines and then we flip internet and radio then there's tv and last is podcast the new one one what this tells me is that advertising is largely sold not bought what this tells me is that the ark of how much you pay for advertising is how entrenched is the industry because the people who buy ads with exception of the internet are almost never. We're spending their own money. The people who are buying ads are buying them so that they can tell their boss. They bought some ads that question shen. What will i tell my boss fuels so much of what drives our culture so if you're an advertiser at craft or general foods were harley davidson and you go to your boss and say i spend all my magic beans on a bunch of podcasts. You might not get promoted but if you say i bought a super bowl ad the boss knows exactly what you just did and that's because there's a dance between the people who buy ads and sell ads and a lot of people who are in positions of authority got there because they spent years working their way up on a medium mm. That's been around for a while now. The exception i said is the internet and the reason is the internet unlike all the other media. I just told you about is a direct marketing medium. Direct marketing is a marketing. I run an added two pm at two. Oh five someone clicks and sends me money. Google is the giant godzilla of online direct marketing when they got started. You could buy a click for penny or nickel and what would happen is this an entrepreneur is busy buying clicks for nickel that she's turning into one hundred bucks every time because she said something very specific to a very specific group of people but then her competition sees what's happening because they've been busy googling ogling themselves and when they google themselves they see the ad for their competitor and they look at that ad in google's happy to tell them their competitor paid a nickel and you can have it if you pay a dime as they pay a dime and so the auction is on and now there are many ads the cost fifty or a hundred dollars a click in the current election cycle candidates are paying between fifty and seventy five dollars to get one donation of of just a dollar. They are willing to engage in that auction because it's worth it to them to win it. This is direct marketing measured marketing and the internet has scaled super fast because it has undermined the principle behind most other advertising and that is the principle bowl of we don't know which one works because it takes too long because it's too hard to measure their back in the nineties. When i was one of the first people selling internet advertising sizing we would go to ad agencies into clients and they would say well. What's your r._o._i. And we would say back to them. What's the r._o._i. The return on investment of the t._v. ads. You're running. 'cause you don't know you don't know what the r._o._i. Is because you can't measure what person saw your ad saturday saturday three pm during that golf tournament and then six months later bought a mercedes unmeasurable and that's where the ad marketing in complex grew. That's why magazines newspapers t._v. Their ad rates are so high because all you need to to do is pay a penny more than the competition which leads to the next big idea which is really important except for the direct marketing of the internet net all other forms of media are based on scarcity only three big t._v. networks only a few cable tv. The networks only twenty giant magazines only a couple newspapers in a city. What the scarcity means is it your competition. You can box you out. You can find yourself with no share voice and so the psychology was we better by this to have a presence presence. We need to be esquire n. g. q. and the new yorker because if we're not our competition will get more share of voice and and so these media platforms were organized to be perfect to sell ads in podcasting podcasting not so so much because we begin with this the internet's the first medium in history that wasn't built to make advertisers happy. We have television because we needed a place to run t._v. Ads not the other way around the reason we have magazines. They were looking for a place to put magazine ads but that's not what the internet was built for and then the add on of podcasts the idea that we can stuff voice to a. R. s. feed that tasted to a whole new level because podcasts hard to measure and podcasts not scarce anybody can can make podcast in fact anybody should that's why we run. The podcasting fellowship at akimbo dot com because having a podcast is a great idea idea it clarifies. You're thinking it lets you share your voice but it is not a good way to make money. This podcast is in the top one percent of all podcasts. When it comes down to its audience the median the median in podcast has one hundred and twenty four listeners now one hundred and twenty four million not even one hundred and twenty four thousand one hundred and twenty four a hundred and twenty four listeners per podcast. It's estimated that more than half of all podcasts haven't had a new episode come out in months and one of the reasons is their seven hundred thousand podcasts with a median listenership of one hundred and twenty four so sure the podcasts that are among the top one percent can probably make a living but most of the other ones won't but they will be replaced because anyone can make podcast and because there's so much scarcity it is very difficult for even the larger podcasts tests to ratchet up their pricing because the buyer who is used the direct marketing of the internet because that's where they lumped podcast buying is busy saying what you are. Why what's your click through. How do i measure what someone needs to say to. These buyers is that's not the way most host advertising works that the advertising that got you here was brand advertising unmeasurable advertising influential advertising in a place that wasn't noisy places like newspapers and magazine where you can't tell for sure it worked but if you do it long long enough it will work and so- podcasts have these problems no scarcity and they're being sold to direct marketers podcasts. I don't need advertisers. They need sponsors. They need patient. Long-term advertisers who understand that the podcast is talking talking directly to curious smart people who have volunteered to spend half an hour or an hour in an intimate it relationship with someone who is talking with them not at them and that's going to take a while and in the meantime people are trying trying every trick they can think of. They're trying to become the h._b._o. Of podcasting by taking a bunch of podcasts off the market putting them behind a paywall and and seeing if listeners will pay to hear them. It's harder than it sounds because when h._b._o. Came along your choices were h._b._o. Or one of the t._v. networks cable made it harder to be h._b._o. 'cause cable put a whole bunch of other stuff in front of people but h._b._o. Had enough of a head start that they could build the sopranos. The day could bring t._v. To people who wanted to see it but the thing is it takes millions wins and millions of dollars to make the sopranos it was really hard for t._m._c. or an or bravo to mount to show like the sopranos north podcasts podcasts. Even the most expensive want are really inexpensive to make so it's hard to imagine that people will pay to subscribe to a specific podcast on an issue that hasn't even been brought up yet sure their edge cases the patriarch of sponsoring directly a specific podcast. I can totally see that working but that makes this a long entail cottage industry one that we cannot compare to radio or two magazines or even to movie theater advertising because the culture the people who buy ads run really deep and that culture says what do people like us by when we by media and so far they buy one of two things they buy the brand ads their bosses used to buy or they buy the direct marketing that they can prove works and podcasting right. Now is neither one of them. So where does this all lead us where it leads as us is the fact that because pretty cheap to make a podcast because the people in the podcast business are generally talented and open hearted wjr wanting to work to make the medium better. It's not going to go away but what's fascinating to me to watch is how will the people who pay for all this pay for it. In a way that changes how the media works we've already seen that some advertisers are swayed swayed by the false siren reach rather than buying four specific podcasts that add up to the group they seek they would rather buy one giant podcast at a premium that gets them a whole bunch of people they don't want because we're swayed by big numbers and the way you get big numbers is by becoming like cable news becoming like sports radio yelling a bit being funny talking about true crime so yeah. We're gonna plenty body of that but i think in the long run we're ending up with a bookstore model. The bookstore model says no one ever got rich owning a bookstore every once in a while and author comes along who does just fine j. k. rowling billionaire but in general you should write a book because you want to write a book now because you wanna and get rich so that's my rant and thank you for listening to my podcast. We'll see next. It's mighty kyle reading. This is stephen out in madison wisconsin a leash up from charleston here on the warm greetings from curious how much nick ryan from pittsburgh pennsylvania pay sent. This is rex hi. This is roberta perry. The question is and that completes my question. Thanks as always for your questions. I really love to hear hear from you. All you need to do to ask a question is visit akimbo dot link. That's aka. I m b o dot l. i. n. k. and press the appropriate button while you're there check out the show notes i recently heard an interview between tim ferriss and seth godin <hes> and something that i heard is something that i really want more information about and that is challenging children to who <hes> solve problems in a way that is both developmentally appropriate end helpful to their progress as well as enable the parents parents to get close to to them. I would love to get some ideas in that regard. I haven't almost eight year. Old daughter who i think is very bright but could definitely use some help in that area up challenging and i'm just not coming up with ideas. Is there a podcast that you've already done or one that you can do just focusing on that issue. Thanks yes thank you for this and your daughter is lucky to have you. I'm doing it up coming episode about interesting problems but here's a short short preview basically the hard thing the difficult thing the important thing about parenting exceptional children in a modern world is teaching them independence which requires setting them up to be wrong setting them up to to do things that don't work back when they had the maker faire two had a very vibrant shop at the back where you could buy stuff are dino cables volt wires little mini monitors and sometimes even lego but what saved the lego company were lego kits <music> that instead of selling kids and their parents blocks they sold them kits with only one way to be assembled because it fits our mindset it fits the model that parents and teachers have people mean well which is there is one way to follow. How's instructions one way to put it together. One way to be right and the essence of my argument and the hardest thing you can do is set your kids up to do things where there is more than one way to be right and many ways to be wrong to challenge kids not to meet spec but to write the spec that an eight year old probably would benefit from running a business a simple oh business selling ice tea on the corner or something but not if you give them the manual if you give them the manual then all you've taught them <hes> is that they need to follow instructions. Lots of people are teaching them to follow instructions. How can we teach kids to lead to write the instructions and most of all to be generous. Hi this is bleak from barrington. Illinois just finished listen into your episode about the fridge and the cultural changes and supply chain changes that are possible with our connected world these days and i found myself myself kind of a little bit resistant to some of the ideas you are proposing namely that because of the industrial surveillance complex that were sort of living in the internet these days i found myself increasingly wanting to keep some of the devices that are in my home <hes> kind of off limits from other people seeing what's going on with my life using that to manipulate me in ways that my family and ways that <hes> i don't really we know about or or isn't transparent to me so i guess the question i have for you is as we continue down this connected world. Do you see any opportunities. He's or <hes> cases where we need to be more transparent about what data we're using on people <hes> what data we're gathering on people all and how we're using that to better serve them. <hes> thanks for all you do and i appreciate your work. This is a great point except it's twenty or thirty years too late. If you live in our modern economy meaning you have a credit card meaning. You have a frequent shopper card meaning. You have used the internet let then the only thing that's going on is you've lost your privacy but you might not realize it. Most people don't actually care about privacy. You see what they care about is being surprised. You don't want your credit card company to call you on the phone and say hey we noticed you've been staying being in a lot of hourly. Motels and buying flowers delivered to someone who you are not married to. Would you like a free coupon for venereal disease testing that would make you happy even though it appears generous the reason it wouldn't make you happy is not because your privacy has been violated because your credit card company vinnie has known this all along. It's because you were surprised and so one we read the headlines about alexa or google home. They're almost always he's about how we are upset because the promise wasn't kept the promise of this little servant listening to us all the time but never surprising surprising us so while it may give you solace to say i will not let the internet into my refrigerator. It is way too late. Wait for that years ago. At the dawn of this age walmart got caught because they're algorithm figured out by surveilling people's shopping habits that a young woman was pregnant and started sending her coupons before she knew she was pregnant didn't walmart new before she did because of her behavior. This horse is way out of the barn and we don't have to like like it but it's true and what we really need to do is speak up and get the people who are surveilling us to be transparent about it and keep their promise thomas not to somehow insulate our avocado habit from the giants system. This is chris from utah. I was just listening to your podcast on systems in the refrigeration system. Got me wondering about the gaps between the time. We have a current assuming you're trying to push through the new system. How do we push through that gap. <hes> for example in your system. It really works. Everyone's fridge is recording all the details rosen and feeding that information back to the system so that the supermarket has the right stuff in stock had you what about the customers who aren't yet exposed to that system have to go to the store and just buy the stuff that they want <hes> without it. Kinda throws a wrench in the whole system because their their information hasn't propagated back there <hes> the other example that i might apply this idea to is self driving cars self driving cars could prove a lot of <hes> <hes> safety it could improve safety in this in the system and it could even make her life easier get in the car takes where you want. We can improve the system but then you have the things he's outside. The system like people who don't have self driving car anyway. <hes> thinks appreciate your podcast and everything you do. You've touched on something really important here. Which is how how systems change the answer is. They change when the minimum number of people necessary to make aac the new system viable is a small number so let's think about email at the beginning one percent percent two percent. Three percent of the population had an email address. It was hardly universal. People laughed at it. I can use a stamp. I'm modern. I have a fax machine but two percent of the population was enough to make the system work because you didn't need everyone and to have an email address. You only needed the twenty people you work with the most to have an email address. Slack is the same thing slack has a ridiculously ridiculously small number of paying customers way fewer than a million way fewer and yet it works great for people who have installed and at first team because the pitches this system this inter office communication system will work great. If only twenty people people in your team are using it and then one by one they can pick off the outliers so my metaphor last week about the refrigerator and it was as a matter for was to help see what you ge- systemic change looks like but you're absolutely correct that the problem with this model is it doesn't work that well until lots and lots and lots of people have embraced it. This is part of the problem blue apron blue apron needed a critical mass of people to make their trucks efficient to make their systems efficient and they misjudged how hard it would be to get that that many people to change the way they ate every night. What we've seen in the last twenty years is that systems that could thrive with small small audiences that weren't very difficult to build got embraced and now what's left are the harder systemic changes things things like self driving cars things like refrigerators that talk to one another but what we're going to see in the next decade is organizations taking on these problems mostly because small and easy ones are already taken but if there is a system in your world that you want to change you can't possibly get it changed with top down edicts. It's going to happen because you are able to encircle a few people who care enough that they will adopt a new way to communicate so they can get stuff done. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time. I just don't think it's possible or probable in today's world to distinguish yourself as an educational institution or as a success seeker at the level of information shen gathering or information distribution. I mean this is the information age and you can get a great book a great essay a great idea anywhere you know. None of us can do that better than the internet right. There is no great thought leader who can out think the internet like we have data what all m._b._a. Gets right. Is it puts you in a context ax where you're part of a community that says yeah yeah yeah. That's good. You got access to ideas. You've got access to information that's awesome but when you're gonna show up when he got to face that blank page when you're gonna face the possibilities within you when you gotta face those fears. I'm not gonna let you gotta show up and and that's the hardest part and it sounds simple. It sounds very commonsensical but it's the number one reason why we don't right that book. It's the number one reason why we don't ask that question. It's not because we don't know where we don't have the information. We don't have an environment and we don't have support network that makes it feel like showing up as possible for me not just possible for the success stories. I see out there but i can show uh consider the m._b._a. More than three thousand alumni in seventy four countries greece around the world find out more at ault m._b._a. Dot com.

Google seth godin united states walmart kimball Slack connie chan andrew chen chris kevin harley davidson ault m._b._a giants tim ferriss stephen
'The Goldfinch' - Roger Deakins

Behind The Screen

30:50 min | 2 years ago

'The Goldfinch' - Roger Deakins

"Unanswered in I dreamed I saw my mother again same beautiful Pale Blue Eyes aw aw and when I lost her I lost sight of any landmark doc. That might have led me someplace happier. The mother was killed aw today we'll be talking with Roger Deacons one of Hollywood's most respected cinematographers who he visited here in Los Angeles to talk about his work on the Goldfinch director John Crawley's drama is based on the twenty thirteen Pulitzer Prize winning novel of the same name that follows protagonists Theo who survived a terrorist attack at New York's metropolitan to Museum of art when he was thirteen oaks vaguely plays the young Theo ansel elgort plays the characters adult the movie was made on sets and on location nations largely in New York deacons famously won an Oscar for bladerunner twenty forty nine after thirteen previous nominations for films including the Shawshank Redemption Shen the man who wasn't there no country for old men Fargo and Sky Fall and I'm thrilled. He's joining us today. I'm Caroline Georgina. Welcome the Hollywood reporter's behind the screen Roger. Thank you so much for joining us today yeah so to start what attracted you to the material. Had you already read the novel. No I hadn't actually I. I can't remember Salang ago that was sometime while we were actually in Budapest in blade runner think my agent mentioned it to James and as a copy of the novel not the script as immediately kinda drawn it yeah and then this was your first time working with director John Crow What did you talk about that? When you first met when a fuss mass nothing specific like that we just saw talk in general about this that and the other you know you tend to get to yeah? No somebody really not talking specifics. I seen his one of his first films boy. I was really impressed by that and obviously Brooklyn so we talked about that and different approaches and things with each you know in our lives really so yeah. We didn't amid initially. We didn't really talk that much about Goldfinch now in terms of photography of it. That's something that just kind of develops flips. She got along really did in that case anyway and what was he like to work with. Oh just perfect great wonderful lovely guy really committed to the project and commit to his own version of it which is really nice very distinct kind of idea what he wanted out of it but it wasn't dealt Masic and you know it's great great collaboration this great tune fourth yeah it really Nice Guy. I really good time well. What would you sum up the creative brief that the two of you went for this rarely anything specific when you still can with director and token through a script something develops issue you know I like to go through a script with a direct turn talk about different scenes and the different kind of feel of each scene what what HCC means more than actually what it should visually look like because that's develops out of that conversation and then you gradually look at locations and and something that evolves really shot on location in New York and Amsterdam dominant in Albuquerque Cookie standing in for Las Vegas Yeah Okay and then you also did some work on stages file a little bit in a warehouse up in yonkers? Yeah not really proper state state was fine for what we need well. Let's start with New York when you were shooting The New York scenes. What was the feel you wanted to give both when the Oh was living on the upper east side and then the time he spent in the antique store Minu wanted a feeling of this of darkness of this Old New York apartment Hartman kind of feeling of fading wealth? I suppose is what I was looking at anyway and the antique store wanted to become somewhere that was more inviting writing to theo became something kind of more a warm and something more where he felt safe. Really you know it's what was more about specific scenes really you know when when his father turns up in the apartment you know wanted to feel kinda threatening so there's certain ways we tried tried to achieve that in the shots. You know what you saw what you didn't when Theo I goes to the apartment for instance these taken there by the welfare social services whatever apart from the conversation we had him sitting in passageway so he's listening to the conversation off you know so we tried to keep about that. Theo could quite a lot of in his perspective so it wasn't always Mike showing everything kind of subtle things like that really. Could you elaborate on in your approach to the lighting again for the New York scenes. What an interesting thing about choice of locations as I said say the look of it kind of evolves as you as you think about the location and look at the practical issues of doing it so we looked at locations which were real apartment on whatever it was meant to be Fifth Avenue Park Lane or can't remember they always like fourth or fifth floor on a tiny ella nonsense? You'RE NOT GONNA shoot the deficit of four or five weeks and get a full day's work. It's just not going to happen and then we should the time of year. We're shooting at means. Sort of daylight. Time is limited. It'd so you know you're going to have to light it so going from actually using a real location we went real apartment location. We went and it showed it in house upstate new awry and it was mostly ground floor second floor and cake design a mate look like an apartment and that way I had total control over the lighting. I wanted to kind of feeling of this of saw flight wanted initiative feeling that was quite down inside. It was kind of an attractive place. It was kind of a little in a way a little threatening I suppose so that gave Chris Control over that location but we couldn't see outside the windows and one of the one of the first things was oh. Surely we WANNA see outside the windows but really you don't because a lot of time the cut from US closed so there's like just slivers of like getting into the price you know whereas some of the other locations which initially a. k. k. and production of thought about doing on a set when I came on board and talk to John We said now we should do this on location like the Amsterdam the time hotel room for instance originally was going to be a sat in New York with the backing and we said well no surely it's so important that we have have a window and we have a view and you see Amsterdam and it's really then it's about these moments with Theo. There's not much dial okay. It's just about him. It's a much more internal thing but that made it more important you you felt the view and you felt the changing light. You felt daylight going the night coming the snowfall okay so it's interesting how you know issue gradually developed how you gonNA shoot. Something thinks change. What say one goes from location to state? Uh On the other goes the other way and then the antique store is the antique store et Cetera. Is that a location location yeah again sort of it was interesting interesting because it changed from being something that was written as and the first location we all looked at a semi basement kind of idea while oh you go downstairs so exterior well going downstairs to this antique store which was below the pavement level but that seemed very restrictive to me and I really fell I wanted to kind of feeling for the saints when you're in the store of actually looking out the window and seeing the street and Baresi Theo standing on the street from inside the antique store when he first arrives and and things like that so that sort of changed around around it was just funny one day we were driving around in the vans. You do as a group location scouting and I said you know about the antiques takes a passing a restaurant and I walked by like the day before the weekend before some acid as anybody about that restaurant and K. K. The newest K. K. said Yeah. We looked at one time. It's maybe it's possible but we dismissed it unless we look again because I thought it was really good so we went back and looked at that. I don't know if he had lunch or something and just actually took it in and that's how we chose that turned the restaurant into an antique store and how did would you like that location. How didn't really liked it? I mean well let it for listen with the practical that were part of the interior of the store that whole locations locations split up because the actual shop with him one place on a street in New York the basement of antiques store we had to build as a sat sat in this warehouse in Yonkers and then the upstairs which is obese private apartments like was a small town house in Baptist Davison so it was a real mix of things to get the right. Look at the you know the girl composite place you know for the scenes Amsterdam now he's an adult and he's a very different place in his life. Would you elaborate on the field that you wanted to create for. Those hotel seems most important the a time passing really because you had to get across the he was struggling with himself quite a long time and then he wakes up in the middle of the night and has his vision of his mother and but that's all interspersed isn't it between the beginning and the end story and then at one point in the story he goes to live in the hot desert of Nevada with his father. which you said was albuquerque but again very different look? Would you talk about your approach to the well I mean it seems to make sense to go to Albuquerque Albuquerque because my frankly New Mexico you got good tax break. This crew infrastructure there and we wanted a kind of suburban look at equally well in Albuquerque is is in Las Vegas. You know they're quite similar as very particular part of Albuquerque for news of expansion expansion up to the west side which looks right out into the empty desert and that was kind of perfect for us we scouted on a number of houses is there and Joan ended up liking the interior one particular house on the theory of another and then we scouted around I am for Boris his house and found this antastic place that look out onto nothing with a swimming pool dry swimming pool in the back which was is perfect for the other two boys only thing we had to we behind the swimming pool is like a garden and there's a wall and then empty nothing into the flat desert or whatever and the only thing to do asked him to take some of the Truth Cup little apple trees or something in the garden. I remove those because it's even bleaker you take them away so much to do. That was really good but I mean it was really about finding the right location. Yeah I mean it wasn't a huge budget films. You couldn't do a lot we could build. It was often about finding the location really fit story. You really felt the the bleakness heat the isolation yeah. It was really important to me that New York was kind of a soft flight kind of natural kind of soft light thing and then you go to Las Vegas Albuquerque where we were and I really wanted to shoot in heart light and and actually top sunlight was fine. I didn't WANNA shoot in in a low golden sun. There's one scene in low sunlight but most of it deliberately in hot high so time and the Museum of Modern Art was a set built correct here obviously exteriors the real thing but yeah we we built a set yeah and then you had to have the bombing sequence. Would you talk about that shoot yeah. I mean that was tricky. I suppose I I John John was really keen on the aftermath of the bombing to be like this void he just wanted to kind of complete. Emptiness of the OS is kind of getting up amongst the rubble he didn't John didn't want to know where we were didn't want to know where he was. Just this avoid and I done in a few things that are not you know Anjar Heddon on bladerunner as well so it was kind of okay so the thing to do is like you just fill the warehouse house with smoke basically just because we go I mean we couldn't get enough smoke really just kept pumping into you couldn't see anything because the problem problem was I mean the set is not huge because it wouldn't have looked real for the last scene in the film when they're walking around the real museum before it blows up so you had tonight. We had to knock out the background with atmosphere so I had to be really thick to take it out at that distance away. Was it mostly practical effects in that so yeah eh practically it wasn't very nice. I should have this before. The bomb needs her scenes with his mother. He has a sense of safety. Would you describe how you live there earlier scenes before the Matt. What is the same risk same lighting are just basically recreated the lighting thing that set the real place you know with better they used it with skype panels? Led skype panel so I could change the color subtly change the color but also control control of the basic panels about ninety skype panels in big blocks but that gave me the option to like have the far end of the block brighter than the end so I could grade the light in a way especially for the aftermath. I needed to have stronger light at the back in us. Oh the characters were slightly Ciller at against atmosphere that was kind of blown out so basically I did do one lighting setup suited both those situations say just based on the real thing well I didn't eat to which they haven't met is a little spotlights the paintings which always bugs me on the go to the Mat because you've got a daylight source of its Chubu daylight cubes but they're daylight only got Lisa or tungsten spotlights on the paintings and well. I mean that's two different vastly different colored light on a painting that I don't understand that it's like really cheesy but anyway so I didn't do that. I just used this big overhead soft light for you. What was the most challenging creatively creatively and would you describe why the challenging thing I think creatively actually not is not a scene to scene things more the overall kind of texture of the film the shooting scenes that back together but there might that weeks apart in the shed Jill and you gotta get continuity in our flow to uh-huh visual of flow so it feels like you're watching the same film and then you go from you know in this case city to city and you kind of want to bring the changes but you still want to be at the same movie you don't want it to sort of jump so I think it's successful in that way that that the whole thing seems to hang together visually and emotionally as one piece the challenge individual scenes you know I mean and obviously you're doing the two kids you know take acid or whatever is on the swings and when they're outside Vegas dusk us come down and they stagger back to the apartment or the House I mean that's kind of a challenge because you don't have much time to do those kind of Dusk Dash shots you? Maybe get one evening to do it in the SHEDU otherwise. You don't know where you're going to you know what I mean. It's not like a huge production so it's Kinda. We got bat. Isn't that's a bit of a high when you get something like that but that's just a logistics thing really was there a technical challenge that was more pronounced than the others the hardest challenge shoot and the exterior of on a Sunday morning we go that yeah you can only shoot. They're up to like nick. I think it's like eight thirty nine o'clock. Maybe it's ten o'clock. It's no later than that so you get there in the morning. When it star you set everything up you set your embassies up the people in the rain brain towers oldest and then you realize it's not a cloud in the sky and it's meant to be a rainy day so then you figure well? We've you've got to shoot this before like eight eight fifteen before the sun comes over those buildings on whatever it is fifth avenue and yeah that's the biggest technical challenges that John we could be in trouble here with the sun. We've got to do this real quick. That's her because it's really feel right from new car coaxes coming coming out and he's going to be all the extras got covered in dust and look like they've just been bombed. I mean that's not an easy thing to do in a few hours so I think it was quite successful given that kind of pressure you know to me. What time of year were you shooting in New York? That must have been in March. I think think daylight we couldn't start that early. Amendment didn't really get light to six or seven so we didn't have time to shoot shoot those shops and not so much shooting the shots set and all the background and getting the action right and getting the feel of that one moment. It's not many shots in the film but so very important moment in a shot this with an Alexa. Would you discussed your lens choice's just normal. I mean the only thing we did differently on it. was we did some very shallow depth of field shots for the pre explosion so that because these things would John wanted to use interspersed within the film in different places just Theo's memory of that moment when his mother left him and explosion Shen and obviously we couldn't we didn't want to do it kind of big affects thing you know it's a marvel comic movie so we wanted to kind of concentrate on Taos perception memory of that moment and those little details the mother's hand leaving his shoulder. The mother walk in off out of focus awesome stuff like so we we did quite a lot of tests on that show that really really shallow depth of field so we had slightly this rapidly out of focus in I made it wasn't any different lynch choice really it was just a matter of shooting really wide open and and sometimes just pulling focus forward when you would naturally drop focus back so when the mother walks away we would actually pull focus forwards. She was and more out of focus rather than coming. You know to me but I mean we never really went longer than the sixty five or not. It wasn't something that wanted to do on long lenses. This is basically shooting in that sort of mid range in the thirty five forty fifty that is quite straightforward film in a photographic. That's really about each little scene. It's the little things that are important. It's such a personal story so intimate intimate and so much about this one character so things about his face about his point of view an assay. It's is Lonzo details. It's like little things we did like in in the House in Las Vegas as a kid is code up on the floor and ah you go to the hotel room in Amsterdam Melissa's James's. ID feels culled up. There's an adult he's code up on the floor in the same way as that what kind of little moments of torment that kind of I thought quite magical and that's what it was about more than the larger kind of challenges it us about the just those little things little details. Would you tell us about working with the actors I well the other thing I mean it was a great cast miss totally wonderful cast work with especially oaks in oh I mean I don't think I've ever worked with an actor who's who focused on the character and had such an understanding what his character was going through. It was kind of amazing. I'm and I would listen to his conversation with John About why he was doing something. In a certain way it was really interesting. He really really thought about it and he really was that character is really great. It's brilliant and then it was interesting to see Hansel. Take were oaks. This was doing of both swap their little mannerisms to try and integrate the character from one to another. That was really interesting. You you know I said the south things they were doing. Well we actors yeah. That's what makes that so special. You know just the details of the characterizations so let's say it's it's for me photograph really obvious partly why operate I mean I just love being watching those Oh things happen. Actors do these little expression and so the little moments they explore their characters this really interesting. We also know that the Irishman is coming up where they're actually going to have the same actor but using the aging techniques. Do you think that's something that will start to be more frequently in Hollywood. It's been happening for years. You know I work in animation still work in a bit an animation. I'm consulting on a film Sony at the moment called Viva and the two disciplines said to you before that and more more combined so you watch whatever the Lion King or jungle wilco but there's something that's still special about doing it in camera so yeah the circumstances insys where you need to make somebody look young or older and yeah the digital technology is great for being able to do that but I think it depends on the ballots that how much do you use it like. How much do you put in a totally? CG background I mean I think it's death personally and that's why I'm bladerunner. Last film. I just worked on most of the world is real that CG is is the background on his way deep in the background various elements that you couldn't do any other way or a wide flang shots of the city you couldn't do obviously Loyd but even then we tried to do as much as possible and blade runner live you know I think it makes a difference but maybe I'm old fashioned. I mean Connie always this is talk about happy accidents but it is unknown intangible thing. It's like the difference between shooting on location and shooting on a set. I mean furrow your talent and ability are couldn't like what I'm looking at now that window the way the sudden lights kicking off the floor and bouncing bouncing through here. I mean you just can't do on the set you can't get that level of detail and naturalism that complexity of what the lights do you can can get close to get close enough. That audience isn't going to think about it probably but it's still not the same. The other thing is really telling I think is the actors position and it's all about the actors it's not about me and the camera in the frame and the lighting absolute just something else if you haven't got the actor and you don't believe the active you don't I believe oaks is Theo you haven't got a film and that's why it's so brilliant because you really believe this kid is that character it's fantastic and if if he was acting in a blue screen and you put in Las Vegas as a CG background would he be the same I don't think he would because I don't think he'd be relied light into his environment you know and that's the problem with so many you know about an Pacific but supposedly big movies where they do who so much as a CG environment you don't feel the character relate into that background this some mismatch. They're just not the same you mentioned how the accident silence. Is there a happy accident that comes to mind from Goldman. No only I'm really lucky with the weather. I'm always so lucky with the weather. I'm in the last film. I didn't need eighty cloud for like three months. We got it just about every day I mean I'm so lucky. No just those scenes in Albuquerque Las Vegas to get the clear skies at the twilight. You know you don't always get that but yeah just very lucky with the weather really. Would you like to give a shout out to your crew. Absolutely I mean again you know what the thing is. You kind of film not a slight very small locations going from place to place quite quickly. You know you've got a you've got a movable yogi equipment in up few floors get in set up and then get out and go somewhere the next day so it's really tough for crew and I I mean I was working with people I worked with. Es Pa from Steve Ramsey who's Afro. I hadn't worked with before really quite quite brilliant. Mitch Lilliana worked with since Fargo done just about every film. I've done in America with Mitch. He's just he's the best was the first film I had. I done actually without my regular Dolly Grip because he's retired which was quite a blow Bruce Bruce Hammy which you probably met you met Bruce I think yeah well he retired after they did Coen brothers movie and so I was working with a New Delhi Secret Merica who I've worked with millions of dollars for but he was brilliant and obviously Andy Harris with since Fargo so that's quite a long time. This is my first assistant. Connie Chan was my second his she's pretty brilliant great yeah no that's great crew and then you can work with the film on your work be. NBA Just Galicia's mighty it film to the dailies yeah. This is a year when the American Society of cinematographers celebrating their centennial and I know there's been a lot of talk about discussions about which cinematographers have influenced each of you over the years who've been some of your influences well or not who is American Fisher the hours ago that in use of I mean you mentioned as millions route chart. I don't know there's millions of the American cinematographers I think Connie who and Haskell on feel muscle those guys but Connie honey I got to know quite well and I think he was the biggest influence because I remember watching fancy which was like I think nineteen seventy five I remember and watching that in talk in South Devon on a rainy day totally empty cinema part from a couple of people that are in there because I think they were homeless homeless and just been blown away. I mean I knew this work but I haven't seen filming just being blown away and then that many years later a to be having dinner with Conrad and just chewing the fat about filmmaking was just like well. It's great it was the greatest influence on me really and what do you think of the work. That's coming out of Hollywood today and your cinematography community offering the cinematography is like you know well wide allied. It's pretty stunning. It's pretty amazing. What people are doing i? It's just a pity some of the film's been made up to frankly not so such a pleasure to work on something like Goldfinch I mean even if I am worked on it out of being glad it was being made because so few dramas being may with interesting stories that actually have some into say an emotionally engaging and so if they even if I hadn't worked on it would have been I would have been pleased that goldfish would it be made actually took up the work on it as well as security great. I've been very lucky beautiful farm congratulations thanks thanks. Thank you so

Theo ansel elgort New York Las Vegas Amsterdam Hollywood John John Albuquerque New York Connie Chan director yonkers Roger Deacons James Caroline Georgina John Crow skype Masic
a16z Podcast: The Search for the Secret Metal that Powers All Our Devices

a16z

32:36 min | 2 years ago

a16z Podcast: The Search for the Secret Metal that Powers All Our Devices

"Hi and welcome to the Sixteen Z podcast. I'm Hannah and this episode is all about the exploration for and mining of minerals specifically cobalt in this conversation. I'm joined by Kurt House C._E._O.. And co-founder of Cobalt Metals Professor John John Thompson of Earth and geosciences at Cornell and a sixteen zero general partner on the Consumer Team Connie Chan we explain why it is that cobalt is suddenly one of the most important and in-demand medals on the planet and how technology is transforming how we find wounded and the mining industry as a whole along the way we touch on a little bit of Battery Tech History and science and how entire chapters of human civilization are driven by the search for and Mining of medals from ancient civilizations I finding copper to the major ground shift in the nineteen fifties with geophysics and knowledge of plate tectonics and finally what kinds of new data sources technologies and techniques we can use to find more cobalt today everything from geophysical and geochemical data to agricultural information to old boxes collected over centuries in the basements and addicts of mining companies all of this to satisfy the incredible new demand as we enter a new age of battery metals. Why are we even sitting around this table talking about cobol today? What is it that's <unk> suddenly so interesting about cobalt? I think it as a as a color as rate and that was that was very very I use of cope all the very very I use was in dies at hand to to get a particular <hes> type of blue. That was the principal way to do it for discovered Daschle Metal was first isolated as a metal. I think I'm pretty sure it's seventeen thirty nine so if you go back fifteen years or so it's principal uses were in we're in high <hes> sort of high strength steals and things like that so oh cobalt demand gradually about everybody listening to this podcast and presumably listen to podcasts on their device has has ten grams of cobalt in in that device about some might be listening from their cars. That's true yeah good point in which case if they happen to be driving electric vehicle <hes> it could be closer to ten or twenty kilograms of cobalt. It's the battery that uses the call. It makes it makes the best batteries everyone knows they have a lithium sort of a lithium battery in their in their phone or <hes> but that's a chemical reaction between lithium cobalt oxide and <hes> and so the two parts of the chemical reaction are essential and the greatest energy density greatest greatest <hes> re capability how fast you can chart and discharge the battery greatest cycle life that kind of I think that has some more all Colton. Why is that? Can we get into the science of lie. That's the best battery. The reason cobalt makes a great battery is that the battery in your iphone is what we call a lithium in Turk- Elation Cathode. That's a fancy name but what it means is lithium's. The mobile ion so a battery is better has narrowed and a cathode and an eye on that moves from the road to the Cathode to react chemically and form a new molecule. That's more stable. The Cathode looks like it's kind of like a layered sandwich. It has it has cobalt oxide then lithium cobalt lithium in a fully cake in fully discharged since you can imagine very intuitively why that's good because the lithium has to get access to the cobalt so when you fully charge target when you push the lithium out of the cathode the lithium can interpolate into those spaces very easily and put simply cobalt hat forms the most stable layered structures so as you pull lithium out it doesn't sort of disorder change and the and other similar metals ten ten to change and when when they change then you lose capacity your battery fades over time basically because it forms that really robust crystal structure it forms the longest the longest lasting batteries and then it also has sort of the greatest just energy per molecule for him oxide battery and this is my orders of magnitude so like right next to lithium on the table as nickel and if you if you made a nickel oxide lithium nickel oxide battery it would work okay but on your first cycle it would have maybe maybe ten percent less energy over one hundred cycles than it would have. Maybe fifty percent lesson really adds up. You understand age when you're shopping for your iphone battery. Life is one of the key things Oh yeah and especially with your Electric Eagle art call right it determines how long you can drive for patrons. The whole battery technology world is really interesting because it's such an important part of our life now so if you got back fifty one hundred years the lead acid battery which is the first car battery which is still the dominant tenant Basha for starting lights and ignition the SA battery now once you've got an established battery the works the People Trust is quite hard to displace it so be convinced people with any new battery technology that it's going to deliver the right amount of charge in many many times. If you bought your phone tomorrow had to go back to get a new battery. You wouldn't be very happy so this is where Kobylt is a key piece of that puzzle because it offers a level of reliability that it's going to be hard to substitute the summit up simply. It's the things you really care about our Rada which you can charge discharge it how much energy there is per unit mass volume and how long the battery will how long it lasted a single charge and then how much that charge fades over many cycles and for all those all those elements koalas couple superior so we went from from using it to make a pretty color to suddenly needing it all around us almost define human history by the types of metals that we were pulling out of the ground during that time and in fact if you look at the eight thousand years from the beginning of the Middle Ages to nineteen seventy we produced a certain amount of metals who pulled out of ground call that X. in the last fifty years we pulled out the same amount again so throughout all human history now we've pulled out to actually reproduced and lots of two years in the next thirty. We're GONNA pull out another two x just on current trends okay. It's the massive materials coming out of the ground but here's the thing that types of metals that were pulling out of the ground or changing and the they're changing for both society trends and societies needs right so in the next less than a hundred years we have to rebuild the entire energy infrastructure of the world some of that requires the types of metals that we've been playing on the ground for a long time but some of the requires totally new medals and lots of new materials. We need lots of lithium. We need lots of manganese. We need lots of cobalt fault. If we're going to convert the entire automobile fleet to electric fleet we need vastly more cobalt than we've pulled out to date and we in order that we need to find new sources of cobalt and that's what we do so how do you do that. The metal that we need is changing and now we need cobalt. How is the way we mind the way we source it changing too and actually let's go back and start earlier? What does the history of mining cobalt look like the act of exploration discovery is fundamentally and information problem right and so the mineral exploration business this is an incredibly old industry and it's essentially driven and been driven by by the evolution of of civilization right? It's as old as humanity started pretty much copper and that's because people actually found copper the metal sticking out of the ground so they used it they could make it into different things and make it into ornaments since on so this is the very beginnings of Metallurgy as as a scientist discipline and it's very cool because they somehow very creatively worked out how to extract metals from rops that looked green because they have copper in them but didn't obviously show the copper until they were smelted effectively in in a very hot fire an affi- that was a lot hotter than a campfire so somehow these people figured out how to get the temperature of the fire up to a level where it could reduce the Copa Berry Matteo extract the metal from from the this amazing so you know six seven thousand years ago and that process of exploration back then just looked like kind of studying the land the understanding in reading the earth around us. I read a article article recently about the Vikings and the age of iron and how <hes> the Vikings they think were able to identify where the iron the bog iron was through a kind of microbial sheen apparently it was all based on observation yeah and then. UNSA correlation of different factors that were purely observation experiential effectively that's the original prospect of the person who could go into the ground and recognized that this had potential and that really was the way all expiration was done until until about nineteen fifty they went to places where they could still observe metals all the minerals than that they knew had the Mendelssohn even if they didn't understand exactly why or how what the concentration was but oftentimes the minerals aren't setting above the earth Nah not now if they find it on the surface and keep mining down and originally would mind down till the hit the water table and then they couldn't deal with it. The Romans then started using wheels to actually di water so they could then go deeper and the breakthrough in the industrial revolution was the steam engine region which then allow them to make pumps then could take the water for much too steep level so that that point then they could chase it further and fire but they didn't know where it was going. They just followed it has mainly yeah so the nineteen fifties was when we started to develop technologies remote technologists jih physical technologists that predict where things were going and predict where things might be really resent. What were those sort of different sources of information in the nineteen fifties that changed that we started becoming aware of these new processing Earth's? It's process to really one was was called the plate tectonic revolution of the nineteen sixties seventies when people realized that the planet is dynamic and that the planet is descending off the west coast here of North America. The Ocean Russian plate is going beneath us and that's giving us earthquakes volcanoes and song and simultaneously was the development of physics so the ability to detect the signature of the earth beneath the surface in terms of its physical properties how magnetic it is how densities how conductive it is we started to be able to measure those things those measurements that data comes in that correlates in some cases with the presence of metals. How much does the correlate? How productive was it really poorly? It's the many false positives okay so we generated maps of magnetic sandwiches and people would say there's all these fancy looking anomalous bumps in the data and they drill them. They put holes in the ground in turn out the one in one hundred actually be interesting investment effort and tools interesting that hasn't changed. We've got more and more tools now but if statistically when we look at the chance discovery are odd still very low. We're in thousands one thousand one in five thousand awesome well. Let's go back to cobalt and hung about what that process has looked like for cobalt because it hasn't we haven't there hasn't been a reason to invest a lot of discovery in cobalt right up until the point that's pretty pictures and right. That's right so one of the interesting things about cobol in particular as a metal is that if big copper mines that are principally there because of copper and they also have a lot of copper and a little bit of cobalt and that's because cobalt copper tend to be hang out to hang out is not always been certain circumstances they do and so so it was effectively the marginal cost to produce cobalt out of these minds very perk. It's an extra park right mind anyway. If the if there was no cobalt there right so you have this you have this sort of kind of gift to the world we're going to investing copper production and we get a little more a little little cobalt and same thing with nickel you you you get a lot of cobalt sa- say with nickel so that byproduct production of cobalt alongside copper nickel was was more than sufficient to supply the world up until up until now when you say more than sufficient does that mean sometimes people didn't absolutely so of y'all know that's even just in the last fifteen years where compromise were were were developed. The cobalt was well known its presence was well. Well no investment decisions were made not to extract the cobalt from the or to extract the copper and to throw the cobol into the into the tailings pile why because at the time there if you if you did make that investment <hes> and supplied the that cobalt tank the market too much because the demand was not there from the smartphones and the laptops and nobody knows quite literally yeah right exactly and so now the whole situation has flipped right so now all of those mine tailings things that are <hes> full of cobalt and that are known are being reprocessed or investments okaying made to go to sitting on a garbage pile of feeling good about absolutely in fact the largest the large the two largest projects X. to come online and the next in eighteen twenty four months are exactly that our our waste piled reprocessing projects but in order to you know in order to convert the entire global vehicle fleet to to electric vehicles we need vastly more than is available available even just current predictions if you include global demand especially from Asia of electric vehicles were likely going to run out of cobalt from known supply <hes> in less than ten years. Wow we have the sudden increased demand. What what are the sourcing efforts starting to look like how is it changing how we actually find and source cobalt if you look into the scientific literature and you look at Gold or deposit formation you'll find a very rich scientific literature on how gold deposits form you'll find it very rich scientific fantastic literature on how copper deposits for you will not find a rich scientific literature on how cobalt deposits form because people haven't looked for it? It's not the same incentive just wasn't important so John. What does that science look like for how to find cobalt? How much do we know not very much Mr Wiscon- starting pretty at a basic level who wanted Kobylt? We've gone looking for cup. I'm going to how to do that right over to go looking for nickel so long that we found some copper and all well this is terrific. We've got a bit of extra cable but there's no science basis for that said what actually makes Kobylt tick so how understanding what kind of liquid will transport Kobylt so what if we have a fluid moves through the earth water dominated maybe salty water moves through an interacts with Iraq will it actually extract coble we know kind of how much copper it might extract but we don't know with cable so and so it did and then it keeps moving in that liquid kind of comes up on the surface or comes into a different environment would precipitate cobalt. We don't announced that either and yet we know it did that because we can find occurrences around the world where which are rich in Kobylt and we can see the evidence that the that came from the passage of a liquid through the rock and that left the Kabul behind in coble minerals so that's one clue we understand how that work then can we extrapolate to other areas and predict where it might look a gain aware might even work even better and give us a greater concentration of cable says the science kind of basis and what are some of the other clues that we're starting to gather where you want to dive deeper into. Why is this? Why is this happening with co Q. to understand? It's not that rare when you look at the distribution of Kobylt that occurs in environments that formed own from liquid rocks have very high temperature plus a thousand degrees but also precipitating on the ocean floor deep deep on the ocean floor below four thousand meters beneath the surface. We have did Najah these little concentrations of metal that precipitating out seawater and so let's see what temperature two degrees in the deep ocean center those are there. They were found in late eighteen hundreds on an expedition that was just dredging stuff off the bottom for the heck of dredging stuff these little round balls call manganese nausea because the the major constituent actually manganese but they they contain significant coble and how interesting that that's what exploration was back then later ocean. What's there the result is we know who will conform really high temperatures and we know it conformant really cold temperatures? That's a huge range of conditions precious temperatures now. We wanted to get a little bit smarter and clever understand which of those ranger conditions will give us more kobylt rose to corporal nickel. Nikolov Manganese or data play makes so much so that takes us into now the the data will because rather than like comparing various exploration efforts. They're looking at places that are fundamentally so different. Now you can track every every known source of cobalt and what aspects or what qualities around that land made a particular and then pattern match was pattern matching that process and then this just looking at the patterns of data until get them to tell us the story that almost reminds me of like the initial way of looking at the landscape with Mary Little Information and trying to pattern match the green rocks or the you know the Iron Sheen or what have you but this is like at a much higher resolution and much greater than anyone human could ever do right what the data will can do for us now A._I.. Machine learning it is the twenty first century prospector because it's not biased. Prospectors weren't biased they would just observers so the digital will observe an integrate and interrogate the data in ways that we humans jealous with La Biases will never do and we can go back and look at all the other historical traces of Kabul and all the reports that are written that are that compete lia form right now <hes> over the last several decades okay or or paper form. So where are you pulling these different information sources from what are they. What are the mainstreams of different kinds of information? There's a huge amount of information out there the challenges that it's not well-structured <hes> or even digitized in some sense you have <hes> geophysical data which is we're talking about. Things like gravitational anomalies magnetic anomalies <hes> N._p._R.. Electromagnetic responses things like whole class of data geochemical data is is is compositional national data in basically a point in space and list of concentrations at at that location then you have mineral logical data which is like geochemical database more complex because it gets into not just a list of elements but actually what molecules the elements elements were in and then you have things like agricultural information right which are sort of indirect or top logical information meaning like what is the soil like here and this this this is used for inference right. It's not necessarily direct direct observation but that's really important she oh then <hes> hyper spectral data <hes> which is just the wide band of electromagnetic emissions and reflection from the surface of the earth is whether a part of that as well or waters a great source of information so you have these you have very very wide <hes> sets of data. The data has been collected over centuries really right. It's basically every piece of knowledge we have about the earth and earth word. That's exactly what every every two first order every piece of knowledge about how they're earthworks and what what about the earth is relevant. It's just a matter of how relevant sort of relative weightings of of importance and so in certain jurisdictions that data has been sort of aggregated in certain ways and there's a lot of public in certain places. It's it's it has not even been digitized over. What kind of timescale are you looking at? Is this all like fresh. The new data is this data from two hundred years ago when people were panning for gold <hes> new and old so something like Iraq doesn't move quickly two hundred years not really that unlike a lot of interesting. I'm like a lot of data analytics. Data Science plays right we are we are looking at effectively static system of course the earth is dynamic but on a timescale we're looking at it. It's effectively. That's a very different. It's a very different data science problem them but but we're dealing with sparse data and then we're dealing with highly highly disparate data so we have we have a program of trying to aggregate all these different data sources and then and then do two different things on it from one side. We have our basic science approach which is sort of how how oh these orebodies formed cobalt or any other material we we we might be looking for and then looking for those sorts of indicators and then and then you have the really exciting thing which is the data rather than US asking the data questions. The data tells us stuff right so in this and this is where your machine shing learning association modeling becomes important right because the data itself can make predictions based on the patterns that it sees and that's where you eliminate the human bias and the non systematic approach of historic exploration and just like to tie that back again like the the demand for call is so new so there's lots of reports out there while they'll say there's known Kobo in these places they just didn't go mine them if you even get all of those reports and digitize them and look on a map oh all those reports are clustered in these as areas that already surfaces some interestingly enough in the if you go back to thirty forty years a lot of the people out exploring were very good at identify minerals and better than we probably are now because we're learning a lot of extra tools to D- forest now and they record that presence that minerals so now you're not looking through all these old texts for the word cobalt because they didn't right cool down they wrote down the name of Scooter Road Right which is very particular so they would have found that interesting but not from a commercial perspective just thought it was cool. They found another mineral because the bird washer they remember watches so they recorded so now you gotta go through the danger of a fine those references to that kind of thing. I just WANNA drill one level down just for fun color. Where does this reports live now? Where are these types of data coming from the modern data must be easier to access but the old gate but boxes and books and wear in life hells zesty basement basements? How do you emotional recessions all these? I mean it's hard I mean some of mining companies are one hundred year old companies and they have hundred year old data and so they have boxes and boxes sitting there some would be we'll archived and cataloged and some is completely unknown an inside those boxes could be anything it could be good information mention of mineral or it could be some mention of a conversation between two people in the in the conversation they made mention the Oh when I was in the hills thus I found this rock and it has this mineral in it and atmosphere coble runoff twenty years ago we if you went to a new city and you wanted to find a business and the new city you had to get the yellow pages for that city and you had to get a paper map for that city and you had to look up the address in the book and then you had to and then you had to look on the map for that location in a lot of what mineral exploration does now is exactly that it's very a site specific you kind of collect all the data for a new project and a new area to new time it's relatively easy to image the surface of the earth and the infrastructure there Google Google maps dead and and to in catalog businesses the problem the problem we deal with is data sparsity right so in some locations we have we have tremendous amounts of surface data density and meaningful amounts of subsurface data density and other locations. It's very very done very data poor and so then we have to really sophisticated statistics really to try to figure out and predict what is in those material what is in those areas where there is no data. How do you actually deal with that incredible variety and huge amounts of data in some areas areas and very little very old data in other areas? It's about making predictions right so it's about using places where there is a high density of data and you can train and make predictions and then make those predictions in areas where there isn't high densities of data and then go out and validate it. Ah By collecting new data. It's interesting because in some ways it feels incredibly modern in new but in other ways it also feels like a kind of old fashioned way of exploring again actually a lot of this reminds me of like the original idea of venture capital which is when kings and Queens would fund these exploration efforts to look for natural resources or look for new land or whatever they were looking for the whole idea of exploring the earth to to encourage people to look full the materials that we need such that society can improve and do do things. That's the no concept. That's what developed California ultimately in influx of people looking for gold and governments also fairly early. One hundred fifty years ago started mapping the rocks on the surface because they knew if they matt rocks that somebody. Would recognize associations and realized that that might have potential and therefore they'd go exploring therefore the fine thanks and that would then open up and create economic activity and so is very old cycle where repeating but more efficient more effective has now because we have a blower meet commuter. That's also helps actually mind more efficiently more effectively and more cleanly and that's really important because to me there's no point in US going electric and having electric cars using cobol for batteries and solder do that if we create a big mess in in terms of providing those materials so not only got to find it better. We've also got the habits voices and develop it away this more efficient and cleaner and doesn't have the kind of problems that we've seen well. I think it's fantastic to think about this. You know the way that the searches expiration for these metals have driven sort of entire chapters of human civilization and if you think about that you know the the age of copper the age of iron if we think now we're entering the age of cobalt what are some of the ripple effects that we're going to see you know as we begin to more Morris smartly mine and access this this new incredibly important mineral trying to solve like climate change and other major issues that requires very specific use of commodities that were not so familiar with flick Kobylt and so that changes the way we need to think about them and the way we therefore also need to explain them on the exploitation part is to be more selective. We've been new. We bought mind everything so we make big big holes in the ground in order to get on oral copper out of the ground and if we want to be really clever we've got to define higher Ahah concentrations because higher concentrations more efficient but we also know neutrally to try and be very selective about how remind them much higher certainty and you know it's great if we go back and reprocess the tailings which is doing for Kobylt and actually the Romans were the first people who've started reprocessing waste rocks they they did a couple of cycles of this kind of stuff so that's not a new idea either but be much better be a really efficient at the outset extract as much metal as we can from the less and less volumes of rock instead of moving more normal rock tickets consumer perspective this can result in much better battery because right now. Even the amount of Cobo in the battery is kind of financial decision really am sourcing this financial sourcing decision right like if these companies could put more Kobylt than they put in today in their batteries it would still be a better battery so if we want batteries or iphones that last one two weeks without a charge yeah we need Marco Bolt Yeah you know there must be a cobalt craze right like everyone heroin their their mom suddenly wants to go mining cobol. That's the other Kobylt issues. A lot of it comes from the D._R._C. Over two-thirds of the world supply and again remember cobalt not a rare medal so the fact that two thirds of our supply supply comes from the D._R._C. The conga right now as largely a function of where those copper nickel mines historically were on its mind at scale of local people who don't are regulated don't necessarily do it in an appropriate manner and use child labor labor and may have links to all sorts of other potential basically done by local people in the in other parts of the world and they they're doing it because they are impoverished and they have they feel they can party make a better living by scraping up the material plowing the little piece of land this highly valuable valuable yeah and so these small teams that are taking the gamble on yeah using shovels and very very basic tools to go look for the first so that's actually how it's happening right now still is just small groups of people with eyeballs and shovels and the dirt consumers care about where their products came from now they care about the ingredients they care about how they were made. They care care about if this came from a local farmer so they will eventually start also carrying about where their batteries came from in the D._R._c. where this is done they are mining material were which was originally a copper cobalt deposit faucet that then suffered thousands of years of weathering so rain came down and drip through the rocks and actually separated the copper from the Kobylt so the Kobylt stayed near the surface and deep down it gets more coverage and the mineral they might now is this great name called Heterogenous night which says you might have guesses something to do with the heterogeneous I it looks all over the place it's really messy stuff and they can just literally dig that up and put it in bags but unfortunately that also concentrate quite a bit of thorium which is radioactive so now we have artisanal miners local people and kids who mining bags for the stuff which is slightly radioactive not super radioactive radioactive enough to cause concern. They don't know that they're just interested in getting bags full and getting paid for the bag of dirt they they screw up some people estimate as many as one hundred million people on on the planet involve some kind of activity like this at the scale not a- Nigel cobol not just yellow diamond other Coltan other minerals okay so let's talk about what this new kind of endeavor of exploration and mining and knowledge aggregation. What does that mean on the company building side? Who Do you need what kind of what kind of people do you need to sort of represent presented all those different elements? It's a fantastic question and basically it's it's it's two very different classes of people and they're both essential our companies effectively half <hes> made up of economic geologists <hes> geochemists mineral exploration voracious people who have spent their careers looking in the conventional manner for mineral deposits of all kinds but then the other half is data scientists right and so one of my co founders as his P._H._d.. In quantum computing and the other one <music> <hes> was the chief engineer for conaco Phillips for for many years oil and gas has been incredibly sophisticated and how they use technology because there's a very clear financial reason right Oh find oil and gas right <hes> but that same sophistication has not Brian brought over to mineral and metal exploration. We've really well understand the environment in which we find on gas and we have very good sophisticated tools to help us do that so many business playing catch up on Discovery Anna's playing catch up on exploitation as well so just in the last ten years everything now in mining is being senses all over at data's being gathered in the mining process autonomous vehicles are coming into mining's on and that that's why the team makeup I think is so interesting because you have data scientists you have people who are truly experts in cobalt and they already know in how the feeling of where it to luck and then you have people from oil and gas who can who can take that sophistication and kind of bring them up to date okay so we're entering a new era not just about sort of the about the importance of cobalt but also about new ways of mining as a whole transforming a whole industry and whole model of how we find an explorer in the earth so what changes as a result of of that entire model shift so dramatically that's fantastic question I think we think about we think about like the metallurgic epochs right the sort of copper age the bronze age the Iron Age the steel age giving rise to to industrial revolution and then petroleum we basically at we're still in petroleum age from material standpoint. I would say we're entering the battery materials age and so battery materials will be the sort of the backbone own of energy infrastructure in the next one hundred years and that requires a staggering amount of new material and different materials than we need it in the past cobalt being being salient one but not the only one I think the tools that were developing specifically to develop to look for cobalt actually have a lot of generality to them and and you know ultimately I think we'll probably be looking for a lot of a lot of things other than cobalt <hes> to feed this to feed the need of of the battery materials age broadly so a new kind of exploration unfair new age of new materials crate the Google maps. You don't just know her. That store is nowhere everything else. <hes> in enough is different but it's the same install souls to material to technology to people's desire to change the world.

cobalt Kobylt Cobalt Metals Kobylt US coble Hannah principal Kurt House Connie Chan Cornell Iraq Kabul North America Vikings Daschle co-founder Colton
Want to fix virtual gatherings? Add the right tech

Business Casual

38:46 min | 4 months ago

Want to fix virtual gatherings? Add the right tech

"All right listen up team. This isn't going to be a regular ad read because you aren't regular podcast listener. You'll have business casual listeners. So you know a few things about finance but this pep talk not about complicated financial topics this pep talk is about you. Sometimes wealth accumulation feels like a complicated game. Only a select. Few individuals are allowed to play. But that's not true with motley fool's powerful insights and research you have the power to create a wealth growth game plan that will help you meet your goals no more sitting on the sidelines to full dot com slash business casual to build your investing game plan. Will i go record this podcast. Pre one and welcome to business casual on your host. Kinsey grant can you. Can you just check if your meal perfect thank. Let's get into it. I'm about to drop some truth here. Within the first thirty seconds of this episode and here it is zoom sucks. Google me sucks microsoft teams. That one sucks the most. We've been working and living and communicating remotely for a whole year now and yet the tools we use to work and live and communicate feel incredibly rudimentary and very much lacking. How is it still so so hard to connect with someone through a screen. I'm not an engineer or a psychologist. So i'm not totally sure but i am someone who has used plenty of digital communication tools over the last year for everything from blind dates to all hands. Meetings to live streamed conferences. And i've been disappointed. Still i am hopeful that we're on the cusp of some new tech tools that will enable better virtual communication because you and i both know virtual gathering isn't going anywhere even after this pandemic year is nothing but a bad memory today. We're going to explore. How technology might enable us to zoom fatigue and even enjoy virtual communication again because we might not be able to perfectly replicate that feeling of just clicking with the person next to you at a conference and grabbing a drink together after the key note but we sure as hell could do better than what we have today. Part of that doing better involves creating new tools. One such new tool is called. Run the world. I have the pleasure of introducing run. The world's founder and ceo and my guest today. Xiaoyan chew cheyenne. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me really happy to be happy to have you. We are excited to dig into what run the world does and and how we can expect this future virtual communication to shift. Hopefully it will shift. I think i didn't really mince my words with how much i detest some of these tools that we have right now but you know before we dig into anything. I would love to just get in to run. The world does so. I know that it's free to use virtual happy hours engaging business and community events and you support large scale interactive conferences. But what else do you. Can you give me some context for what exactly it is that you're trying to accomplish that. Run the world. Yes so round. The world is a virtual events platform that is dedicated for people to build relationships. Whether is a large conferences war. More more commonly is actually a lot of those recurring gatherings for communities for companies for interest groups. We're really focusing on helping people actually start talking and communicating and making friendship. Yeah the idea of getting people to start talking. I think is one of the aspects that we've been missing so much when we think about virtual communication and virtual gatherings that we can communicate effectively. We can get work done. We've proven that we've been able to keep the wheels turning on business for the most part using virtual tools but you are missing that communication that connection. That feels like a really big important part of accomplishing that work of getting that done and after a year of doing this you would think at some point. We have better tools to make sure that that happens. So that's gonna talk about today and have to say we first heard about run. The world from our friend business casual. Alum and andriessen horowitz investor. Connie chan she was on last year. She called run. The world like a hybrid of zoom video event bright ticketing twitch interactivity and lincoln networking. Which i imagine are very big shoes to fill. Those are all pretty important and tech titans. Yeah i guess There's when we started the company actually prefer. Cohen was twenty nine thousand nine. So i was at that time. A mba student at stanford in my mom's a doctor in china and so i was racing china and my my mom has never really traveled to chicago so few for the first time for the first international conference and she ended up meeting another doctor from dubai out. They had the same rare patient case so was like super for her. She was like pr neurologists. Perfect but she couldn't travel To convince it was once a year. That's why thousand first conference after thirty years in medicine and she was complaining to me. She's like you know. I wonder if i can have something more often and meet other doctors like that. More often was basically figured. Maybe there's a way we can digitize the entire sense where my mom can just attend everything especially making connection with other doctors like that digitally. So that's why we started the company. It was before kobe and that time people thought that was a stupid idea. Like you know my company. Find me to like vegas and fun and you're going to probably for that so it was a hard sell at the very beginning against them. Covert hit Early twenty twenty will launch her first version. It was like the week and all of those covers cancels. We've really got a lot of traction. So i think the fundamental thing we're trying to solve is really. How can we get people to start talking to each other and form relationships remotely. Yeah and it's i think a perfect example the fact that you started this business before the entire world went remote speaks to the necessity of these digital tools. Beyond just this year that we've been living in and as we mark this year of covid nineteen and and working remotely and dealing with all of this. It's kind of a a solemn somber anniversary to mark but at the same time. I imagine that is just one year right. Imagine where we might be five years out. What kind of tech we might be using. How are means of communication is going to shift. It's not going to go into these giant conferences. Every year in las vegas right. We're going to communicate in different ways and in many cases such as that of your mom it is going to be for the benefit of a lot of people you know that we can communicate with people who otherwise we might never have been able to meet so while we are forfeiting. Something's all we are leaving things. Behind some of those great aspects of in person gathering and in person communication there is this bright spot that we can enable a lot more people to come together to start those conversations that you're getting at now we're gonna think a lot today about the tech tools and how they might need a little bit of changing to get better because right now they are still in their infancy and a lot of cases. We're talking about nascent technology. That just hasn't accelerated the pace. We might want it to given how long we have been working remotely but before we think about what needs changing to accomplish this more effective virtual communication and gathering. I want to think about why why to you. Does it still feel so difficult to pull off meaningful productive virtual gatherings despite a year plus of remotely doing so. That's a really interesting question. I think about it every day to be honest and so i think i'll tell you something interesting. Though we've observed you know what we first started the company we always see. We're all in one platform. We have the ticketing layer. We have events layer. We have you know abilities. For many many many sessions at the same time for like thousands of tens of thousands people ask questions but they were realizing the most popular feature was one thing called cocktail party so basically he is like a you know i started to. This is like speed dating format where it's kind of like a tinder. One tender meets like events. Basically people can join this cocktail party and they get matched with another person every five minute. You gotta talk with person. Based on different interests in terms of that is the most popular thing and people like lava they keep coming back to when people described it like a conference with ten thousand people. There were like fancy speakers and everything like that is the most important thing is to talk to people instead of like you know the celebrities were like seeing their talk instead of that so that was something this pretty surprising at first but i guess it kind of makes sense. I think there's a lot of problems. Why maybe the current technology tools are not necessarily meaning. The i think the first is because we're trying to replicate what's happening. Physically indirectly digital is not always work. So when i first started company was like twenty nineteen were even even until two thousand twenty people wanted something. that's exactly like a physical vets. You know they want something. That's eight hours long. Three days law when it when it comes to digital attorney doesn't work from engagement sample and we're seeing that ninety minutes is the magic mark after ninety minutes attendees seemed to drop off really quickly and seems see the events that are can sixty minutes lomb tend to attract the most attention but not everybody understand that stats yet so they're trying to replicate what happened at the warped you know offline to online which was something that is actually not what people really want digitally. So that's that's one thing is like more using the wrong type of mindset trying to replicate worked physically is that are trying to design what works digitally. So that's one thing i think. The second day from our observation was that content. Heavy heavy is great but the real value for a lot of people to go to those events. Sometimes it's really to have those live. Interactions take a celebrity keno for example in the physical setting. You gotta see the celebrity. That was awesome. You gotta take a photo You know oh guy this celebrities here but when it comes to digital. A lot of people were complaining. Hey if i cannot talk to the celebrity myself. How is that different from you know watching her. Instagram live with watching him and youtube. A so then. People don't really value those type of interaction as much as we did before. So that's another thing. So people can have a different expectation would come to the type of content. That really works. Yeah you bring up a lot of incredibly interesting points. That i think are are really important to understand when we consider the fact that we're not satisfied. A lot of people are not satisfied with these digital tools. A lot of it is own. Doing we have these mental roadblocks that we can't get over because we think that a digital event should be a replication or a carbon copy of an in person event but if we can reframe the way that we approach these digital events to recognize that they're going to be different that doesn't necessarily mean they're going to be worse but they are going to be different from our in person experiences than perhaps we can get more out of it. But i also then have to wonder what's better you know when when you certainly ben to in person events before you spent a lot of time thinking and participating digital events as well what do you think is better their pros and cons of both when we consider workplace events or industry conferences or just connecting on a level with people in a professional setting. What are the pros and cons of both digital and in person gatherings so i am not one of those crazy prisons. Say let's leave all even the virtual world never like media person. I'm definitely not one of those people. But but i am seeing that. The you know like like what i said before so like the conference. My mom went to She traveled literally two days each way. She spent another week in. Beijing foods beijing to get a visa and travel two days. I each way to go to this conference as once a year. They have a lotta people. They have two hundred topics. Many many talks but reality wise is. She's only interested in two of the cars to talks because that's really was relevant to her because she has to go to like the entire conferences. Because there's there's no such physical event that just covers the interested in it doesn't make financial sense to have an event just covering the purchase interesting because that's to each so she has to go all the way that's like one example and really expensive and everything so i think the the benefit for for all i is that you can see more not only just depends that as the same event. Now have more people participating. I'm more excited about the future where you can have more events that otherwise wouldn't make sense whether it's financially were logistically doesn't make sense that is more focusing on particular niche topic. That's highly relevant. Google people Not necessarily have the the grand back appeal. That is something like currently missing in the in the world. That's like one thing i think digital can can offer a great help. The other thing is really about frequency so my mom wants to meet other doctors every week or every every month if they can share a patient cases they can learn about. What's new typically. Those large conferences was ear. The reason why that is once a year is actually not because the people only want this a year is because you have to fly away interesting. I was thinking about it. How come local meet ups happening every week. Every two weeks go when it comes to global gatherings of particular topic it became less frequent so my conclusion is that is because of the physical barrier and how much hustle and hates people trowel so it would also such physical barrier lake. Expect the same type of events of sin caliber Is able to be held. You know as often as the local media where sometimes even more often so that is one thing that we're also seeing it's really about frequency so frequency be able to have more events that our niche but also making sure that you know more people can host of as nowadays. I was not even planner at all. I have no event planning background. But now i started company. I'm seeing a lot of people like me who was mba student or who is a product manager of facebook who is like a consultant can start their own event. What which was unheard of. So i think the biggest opportunities really those type events that are otherwise wouldn't be helped because of how heartedness and to consider the world or the future in which we can have more specific events that are happening more frequently that are hosted by more people. I imagine it would open up so many aspects of our economy to people who have long been under served so those are all fantastic things but still when we consider the tools that we've been using to gather virtually over the last year. The number one concern. I think that a lot of people have is that we can't replicate the person magic of running into someone of making a friend of getting together for a drink at the end of a long day Or running into someone in the kitchen when you go to get a coffee break right like these little run ins these kind of unplanned. What kind of ideas are you working on right now. Conversations that do often contribute quite a bit to the future of a workplace to the camaraderie of a workplace. The culture of a business. Those are important. And we've had trouble replicating those despite all of the amazing tech tools that we do have that enabled a lot of things that we never would have dreamed of right when it comes to virtual communication. So what do you say to that. I know that you mentioned these. These kind of like little cocktail parties were hugely popular on the platform. Do you think that that can replicate or at least attempt to replicate that magic of running into someone and sharing ideas that maybe you had not planned to do. A first of all absolutely think is possible to create magic. I don't know if that's possible to replicate exact magic. I do think there's a lot of problem with the physical type of a gathering us as well that i think online can address so absolute think it will be solved in a way. That is actually even better. I think it's possible. I'm pretty optimistic. But i do think that you know the reason why we're not seeing those today. I think that the way we designed this is not entirely yet to be honest. We're constantly thinking how we can make it even better but there are some problems for example in the physical worth worth seeing that. We're surprised finding out. We're actually solving it better. So for example in the in the physical cocktail parties people can come always bump into each other. But if you're shy person who's who's like introvert you have to come and novak try to reach out to somebody you don't know who wanna talk to you. There's a lot of people Some people are gathering tool suite. You're not sure. Am i the right person to cut in. should i go into the. They already know each other. Will they welcomed me me. You're thinking a lot of those can mentally equations or like the fact that you shake was somebody and then they keep talking and they're just so annoyingly keep talking keep talking. You can't end the conversation. You're like okay and then you holding your drink your drink half full. They're like okay. Let me drink more drink more until you're like ours our hey sorry. I'm going to get a drink and then that is your like excuse of getting out is a like those. Are the things that actually. I don't think those are good things. I think the good thing is more about being able to bump into somebody were like. Hey let me introduce a mike. My friend mike. My friend is here. Hey tiffany tom come come. Hey jonathan meet tiffany think those are the types of things that are really magical that we don't have that single use designer where where we figured out. What is the real magic that we like and what is awkward magically will wanted to avoid i find it so compelling to consider the fact that these new tech tools might make all of the shitty parts of of this magic that i keep referring to that we can get rid of those shitty parts. I remember my first ever conference going and having a stack full of my first ever business card and my first boss said you need to give away all of these business cards. I want you to meet one hundred and fifty people and that was so daunting. I was twenty two years old. I had never had a professional conversation like that. In my life. I was talking to people who are in their fifties and sixties and had no idea what i was talking about and it was really intimidating and i didn't really get a lot out of that experience other than stress and like sweaty pits. Like this was not a fun experience for me so if we could reduce that friction if we could make things more intentional if we could reduce the pressure of having to escape a conversation or to walk up to somebody and not know what you're walking into it could really open up a lot of doors but it all sounds so great. How come outside of run the world. These tools aren't ubiquitous yet that we haven't seen a tool like this for everyday kinds of gatherings. This is a good question. I've been there moving many reasons. For example i launched the cocktail party. A lot of people were really concerned about it because they thought. Oh my god. I have to talk to a stranger to talk to somebody that i don't know. It seems to be a lot of kind of mental barriers But then we're actually seeing consumer behavior starting to change at the very beginning. We weren't sure if you are comfortable with talking to each other via video to another stranger who really concern we. We said the default to the audio first then people are complaining about it. They say hey. I wanted to show my video. I want to see the other person's show on their video too. So we're seeing. I think there's both reason one is obviously innovation takes time and it takes and error. Sometimes it works sometimes. It doesn't work. So i think it would definitely get there the others. Also the consumer behavior changes to a now this year showing up video and talking to some person you don't know about it's totally okay. My hair is a little messy. That's also caddo needs to be perfectly polished but you know last year just just to name like less than twelve months ago. People were complaining about it because they were so worried that oh my hair is a little messy. Oh my the cameras. Nostra high fidelity. They're really concerned. They wanna make sure they look their absolute best but now after a year of kajiyama. Life's we're used to more cash relatio- ourselves which is something that was unheard of. Yeah yeah you make a very important point being that when when these small incremental changes happen over the span of three hundred sixty five days. It doesn't necessarily feel big data day right but if you look back on how uncomfortable we were having conversations like this over the phone. I'm wearing like a t shirt you know like we. We were so uncomfortable with virtual communication than and zoe but shirley we as consumers got used to it. Surely that will continue to happen right like there will be things that chain about the ways we communicate with each other. Virtually some of that certainly will change as we go back to more in person communication as well but it happens inch by inch and then suddenly you look back and say. I can't believe that. I ever cared about like putting on makeup to go to my all hands sinking thinking today. Am i going to have to go back into the office and like get ready. My team sees me every morning at nine thirty. No makeup on usually just finished work alec in a sweatshirt and it's fine like we still get our work done so it's important to keep in mind so we're going to take a short break to hear from our sponsor and we will be back in just a moment one big question support for this podcast and the following message come from each rate trading isn't for everyone but each trade is whether it's saving for a rainy day or your retirement e. trade. Has you covered. They can help you check off financial goals from your list and with a team of professionals giving you support when you need it you can be confident that your money is working hard for you. Get more than just trading with e. trade to get started today visit eatright dot com slash brew for more information e-trade securities. Llc member finra sipc paramount plus is not just another streaming service binge. The best of cbs and hits from nickelodeon comedy central mtv be smithsonian channel and so many more watch live sports on cbs including the nfl march madness. The masters and the champions league stay informed twenty four seven with cbs news. Get access to critically acclaimed originals. Like the stand star trek discovery and the good fight and not to mention paramount plus has a mountain of family. Entertainment like paw patrol. Blue's clues dora. The explorer and new originals. Like the spongebob squarepants series. Kamp koral live sports breaking news a mountain of entertainment. Try it for free at paramount plus dot com slash casual and now back to the conversation with xiaoyan to cheyenne. Before this this break we had been talking at length about some of the shortcomings of virtual communication over the last year and how he felt a little frustrated with it. I think a lot of people who are listening can probably relate to that feeling of just wanting these products to be better. The question i have for you is how come they haven't gotten better at this point. You know we have a lot of newcomers to this space virtual communications and gathering space and certainly a lot of money flowing in as well but at the end of the day. It's been a year that we've been at this. How come the go-to tools like zoom and google and microsoft teams. Still feel like they're lacking. Do you have any reasoning as to why that might be why. These tech tools feel so lackluster. I think on my is a good thing that was. There's a lot of startups that are innovating. I work in large companies. Before i mean i think they are trying to move fast but sometimes being a company means the after get alignments across different organizations. There may be different parties. I think it's understandable that some big company may move similar move slower than the small companies and frankly speaking only because of that reason this small company can survive right and grow. That's like one thing that i'm seeing and the other things also. I think there's not a known behavior. Were like a consensus of rijkaard's like what is the right way. A virtual communication yet. I think zoom is really designed for a meaning. I think it's an awesome meeting to what we use it internally but meaning is very different from a gathering meetings very different from a conference. That's actually go to meeting rooms for meetings. We go to conference halls for large conferences. Goto backyard for a casual parties. We go to a game room for fun night so we go to a bar for some like a happy times so so i think there's different. Venue are designed for different reasons because people come to those venues was different mindset in a meeting room. you're expected to behave in professionally in a party room. You're expect maybe you know flirting a little bit. It's okay it'd be a little place okay in a cocktail party room. You're expected to socialize with each other and you're expecting everybody else would come to the party room to be ready to socialize with you but when it comes to a auditorium. You're here to listen to something. You're not expected to socialize with other people. So we have different social expectation in venues right and so often. We have blamed these businesses for not innovating at the pace we want them to innovate out. And i think that what you're saying. And what i'm getting out of this is like that's not really fair. It's not necessarily zooms fault. That i'm feeling disenfranchised right and like i my group girlfriend from college hang out when we do like a get together right like that's not what zuma's created for. I would never invite my girlfriend's to my office to hang out with me. We go into these physical spaces. We get in the mind frame that we need to be in an as we continue to gather in virtual spaces. We have to prepare ourselves to draw those lines as well and to recognize that there are different virtual spaces for different virtual needs. And i think that's part of the big of disconnect. That's happening right now with people who like me are feeling like zoom associate. How come. I can't do what i wanna do on zeal. And it's because it's not what it's designed for and that's okay. We've all just kind of use these tools to solve all of our problems. And that's not really fair but who we think about one kind of Aspect of creating a specific place whether that's virtually or in person. One that comes to mind that i'm curious to hear your perspective on. Are these big conferences that we've kind of been hinting at throughout this conversation with vaccines rolling out by the minute people are starting to feel a little more comfortable gathering in groups or we can at least imagine what it might be like to gather in groups again. What is your expectation for the conference industry. You know this is a huge industry at least here in the us. it's huge. We have entire cities essentially that are built on the backs of weekend conferences. Do you expect these conferences in this part of the communist conference industry to return back to a pre cova state. Or do you expect that we might still have some virtual aspects of large scale gatherings for professionals. Yeah so there's things. It's a lot of discussion of industry about this. And i frankly i think there's a lot of conferences. We'll go back to the physical space wisdom kind of digital component. I have a very popular view. I was say. I don't really think those hybrid models as described where you have the same exact conference a live audience or watching either physically. We're ally and their social between like physical persons and person is is the right model. I think is doesn't really make sense to me We know that. Most elliott hendi's don't spend more than ninety minutes in front of their computer consumed about where the physical attendees are very comfortable. 'cause they're locking in that venue for three. Is you know for the whole debt. So i do expect. The tennis will not stay in front of their computer. Watching entire livestream of conference without day is impossible from the data. The whimsy we also know that the benefit of allah is actually the ability of having more gatherings than more frequent. That can be all year round. So i think the right model should be. You know the same community of people should have more gatherings over the year ally where it's either nice. By the same organizers work we self organized by the community members because now everybody can be an event planner to some degree. You expect to see. Maybe some large gathering was more like a resort or whatever covers. The people come here just to really mean go in have quality person times and there may be other like local meet up the spot out of that things are i believe like at every single conference will eventually turn into a all year round community. They just have different way of gathering sometimes digital short focusing on content. Sometimes students were short focusing on meet up or matchmaking sometimes local media and sometimes like large gathering that everybody can be there. I think that's really kind of the future That i'm seeing in terms of events in that case. You have both the hugging card. The touch phil touchy feely part. But you also have the content. You also enable people to participate. Yeah i think you have a pretty spot on interpretation of what this hybrid future might look like with people returning though to this in some cases fully in person offices or fully in person events. Does that change run. The world's value prop in any way. Did you ever feel like maybe you just captured a really important moment in time but now we might go back to in person events and the value that you bring to the table might shift. Yeah for for us not really because we started before covert and the cabins were focusing on right now has be mostly recurrent events that are really frequent And it was a typically. Some kind of community were company. Were could be Influenced or the starts. I'd event with a group of people and they really are here for the socialization or networking purposes online. So most of our events are recurring and they're not large scale conferences. As much we do have a conference at his wall. But we're seeing a tremendous growth in our community events out of business and so we're really focusing on that making sure that Makes it possible for my people like my mom to meet other doctors like every week. That's gonna be our focus. Obviously we have another side of the business. More focusing on comrades says than we do support some type of hybrid. Whatever livestream so. We're seeing some success in that as well. But i think the future like i said it's really focusing all year. Long engagement with community members was your attendees. So i think there's a lot of things to be done. There were really excited about so when we consider injecting technology or applying technology to gatherings virtually. Is there a point at which we might think. Maybe we have applied too much technology to virtual events that we're losing the the luster of this event because it's become over teke fide and maybe people don't understand how to access these textiles or they find other. Other roadblocks headaches set prohibit them from fully participating in an event because it has become a tech challenge instead of just getting on a plane and showing up. Yeah i think if you feel there too. Many buttons to click. It's not only because the tag is not good. Remember the days when we had a book blackberries and we have many many buttons to click and then i vamp popped up and turns out there's only one button they need to click. Which is the home button now. Agassi of the home button as well. So i think the obviously a real good technology is something that everybody gets easy to use and it does job Way now maybe. We are adding too many buttons. 'cause we don't know which button works yet or maybe we're being too rigid in terms of where the buttons are doing. So i think that's that's a actually results of back. Technology were underdeveloped technology rather than good technology as one thing and also i think obviously like i'm not talking about those three d. models everybody's engaging sweet venue yada or in those sci fi movies i think the key is really making people it is. The content of events were conference. Were you know community. Gathering is people is not the fancy overlay whatever. A are filled hers blah. Like if it's not really helping me make new changes than who gives a shit right. So i think that's ultimately what matters and Right now maybe. Their technology was designed in a poor way. That it kind of makes you feel like that was the attention instead of people were just against point. So yeah i think that is because we haven't figured out how to reduce the number of buttons. We're still in the blackberry face of events. I like that analogy. Were still in the blackberry phase. All right we're going to take a short break to hear from our sponsor. And when we come back i want to talk a little bit about the future casual may be in our name but when it comes to hiring talent i can assure you we are anything. But casual shoutout to maryland and quincy and the entire business casual dream team now if there's anyone who approaches hiring talent more seriously than us. It's marketer higher. Marketer higher has a network of vetted expert marketers who've worked with top companies like all birds and glossy a head space and many more. Whatever you're looking for in your next marketing higher you'll definitely find someone who can actually do the job on marketer higher. They're vetted marketers work in disciplines like content growth paid social seo email and more and the best part marketer higher essentially hand picks the right candidates for you. It's free for perspective. Customers to meet their matched candidates get hiring at marketer. Higher dot com. Hey everyone. I hope you are enjoying this episode so far. Stick around because there is a lot more to cover in this interview before we get there though. Quick update to share. With all of you i will be leaving morning brew and business casual and my last episode is hitting your feeds on march twenty ninth. It's been the most fulfilling and formative two years of my life making this show. And i'm so grateful for all of you for making my work so much fun. I'm leaving you in fantastically capable hands. So keep listening for more insightful interviews and perfectly timed jokes an amazing guests in the meantime you can catch me pretty much all over the internet but mostly on twitter at kinsey grant. Thank you everyone and here is to the rest of the month together and now back to the conversation with sharlene chiu cheyenne. What comes next is kind of the big question here you said. We're in the blackberry phase before of this this revolution in terms of virtual events virtual gatherings. What comes next in this space. What kinds of competition are you expecting. What kinds of innovation are you expecting. Just what what does the future hold. I think the exciting part is before you have a whole world of humans living in the physical world we never thought about we can actually deliver for world. There's many different games that are trying to do that. But we thought those are games. Those are not real all of a sudden we actually have a world. We're starting with meeting rooms. Obviously so imagine. The god chris new world it's called the virtual world he start was meeting room. Zoom so now at the entire world has only meeting rooms. But then we're like you know what we want. The gathering was my sister. We want the party. We want to getting a little drunk. I don't remember okay google. Let's go more so now we're seeing more and more spaces that he has like one exciting parties. Have the right space for the right situations. So that's like. I think we're so in a blackberry phase of that because we're trying to hack around meeting rooms everything that doesn't work of unity. The unity is there still a lot of people who are hesitant about the virtual world war. you know. i don't know if i go back to you know. And maybe i still want to have a physical office or something but now as the covert things really last long fewer people are saying definitely gonna stick to back I think was the cinnamon april like. We can't wait to go back. But then maybe now as you know well we can go back anymore. This new also we kind of have to. There's more population that are ready to jump into the virtual world which also the exciting part including people who are from a country that was probably hoses historically. Don't have as much access in resource you know including you know people who are maybe a demographic that were historically we think there ought to understand the tag but in fact they're doing it just as well as as as the millennials was so so i think that's another thing is making more people to be able to join the virtual world which means we're going to see a lot of dynamics shift and that's the type of thing that we do more of the the social scenarios where you're here wanting to mingle with new people were reconnect with existing people. And where can. I don't know the wingmen of the virtual world will wear the the bar where the the alcohol where the cocktails. Oh that's the role the where play. Obviously there is going to be sports. Arena there's going to be concert venues. There's going to be like huge expo center. You know different. People are playing their jobs and were playing the role of you know. Hey every week. Let's pump up people and have a great conversations and make new connections all. That's our focus and i think we're so early on that that we're still there so many ideas we want to test it out and to try 'cause Every single one of them is like so. Yeah we're like. Hey how will people responsive us you know we do this. Sometimes it works sometimes so we're constantly trying new things Like everything is like literally social experiment. Which is really fun. Yeah then. I think it's so encouraging to hear you to have that kind of enthusiasm around trying new things and experimenting with new things and i hope that a lot of people take away from this conversation the fact that this is still so early like we were thrust into this virtual world a lot of people against their will because of this event that no one really saw coming that there was a pandemic and it changed. Everybody's lives and that's just what happened but if we look back and think like would a year ago. I expect myself to tune in every tuesday and thursday to a clubhouse room to hear why you girls roasting tech guys like i. I never would have thought. I would be that person and now i am that person. So who's to say. What kind of person. I might be another year from now. Or what kind of tools they might be using. It's just hard to know. But i think Hopefully we can have a more rooms than the meeting rooms chess. That is the other hope that we can accomplish what we want to accomplish beyond just doing it all on zoom which as we have learned in. This conversation is not always the way to go. Well thank you so much for coming on the show today. And for your time it's been so awesome to hear more about your business in the space in which you're operating and how it's evolving and how we have really no idea what we might be using to communicate in a year from now and that's okay we just gotta get comfortable with it because as you said and what is normal. This is a normal so thank you so much for your time. It has been a pleasure. It thank you so much for listening to this episode of business casual. This is my gentle reminder that you should absolutely free the team on social media. We are at business. Casual pod on instagram at the casual on twitter and playing all business casual on youtube. Thanks so much and cnn time.

Kinsey grant Xiaoyan chew cheyenne andriessen horowitz Connie chan google tiffany tom china motley Nostra high fidelity kajiyama Alum lomb finra sipc paramount microsoft Kamp koral xiaoyan rijkaard kobe Cohen stanford
How We Podcast

a16z

47:44 min | 1 year ago

How We Podcast

"Hi everyone welcome to the six. And Z podcast. I'M SONAL and we're here today. Because we're doing our five hundred episode of the A six Z podcast cast episode four ninety nine was with market. Went Markers the head of marketing. At Andrews and Horowitz who built the a six the brand and for the FI under it episode. Where here here to answer for the first time so sort of behind the scenes about how the podcast works a lot of frequently asked questions people constantly ask us and that also I got on twitter our special guest ghost? An interviewer is a CINCY general partner. Connie Chan Connie will also ask any questions she's interested because she's actually very into podcasting and investment by causing as well so that's the context so let's start with the history of the sixteenth podcast. Tell me about how it got started how you got involved. It was actually created before I even joined. There's already a culture of writing. At Andrews and Horowitz before they even built an editorial operation. I mean there's a popular blog. There's been Horwitz's blogging than book. And this all happened right before I joined and they were also already writing blog posts about announcements and they also had done very few specific. OP EDS that. We talked about episode four nine so that was the context and then and I believe that story was at Dixon. Critics welcome. Dixon came in one day. We should do. podcasting and Dixon was an early bloggers. So might speculation is that I think he thought it was like the evolution of that sort of type of communication and so the podcast was pushed by Chris. Dickson and Kim Milosevic was hiring up the editorial team friend. WHO's and Horowitz? And she I hired Michael Copeland who got the podcast. The ground was the host for the first year I started producing it behind the scenes not hosting about three months in and they only started hosting about what a year in. But I've been very involved in about three months energy loss up behind the scenes so level set. What year was this was late? Two Thousand Thirteen early twenty fourteen. Okay and I was actually that exact same Muir. I'd gone to Exo Exo and I heard a talk from Marco are meant about the resurgence of podcasting. Because it's been around for years as you know right. And he talked about how brands brands and others when they do podcasting. There's a certain intimacy that comes with it and so that has a very similar feeling to blogging in that there's paralells authenticity intimate communication. In fact the way I think of it. Is that if you think about our history of oral storytelling and how we can all sit around a fire. In the olden days that used to be an experience of one on one and now we can do the almost exact same thing where you have the feeling of a one on one intimacy but its scaled to thousands and thousands in our case hundreds of thousands of people. What gave you the inspiration that we we need to double down on podcast? You invested so much of your thinking and your energy into this like what was it that audio unlocking for you. It's funny that you say audio 'cause I actually did did not think of it as audio then but they love it. You're saying that because that's how I do think about it now. At the time quite frankly I was scratching personal bitch which was I had come from wired appeared where I had the opportunity to edit like hundreds and hundreds of different thinkers writers famous thinkers emerging in written form all in written form. I'd never actually done audio by the way they didn't have that experience and I got here and it kind of was like. Oh my God. I love my team. I love the partners but I'm GONNA kill myself with boredom if I only have eight partners where I had come from hundreds. Yeah and so for me. The podcast was away to answer your question about doubling down to bring more diverse voices onto the platform right because before our blog posts for mostly written by general partners. That's right and then with podcast. Now you open up to more internal voices more external voice exactly and in fact. The external voices was built on. What I I did? I wired and building the expert opinion section there and I had three views on it so I was. I think it's really interesting that in our modern world of media we even have intermediaries at all to to dilute the voice of an expert. Okay so in your case perfect example you wrote a beautiful. We chat piece that we worked on. I remember it ran the exact same day that David Pearson wired wrote a piece. He's about we chat which was also very good and well done very different pieces. Yours was the first person I principles first party. Expert take that was not based on reporting it but in using it observing. Bring your own thinking. It was what I describe as an ethnographic kind of peace that's first-person expertise. David's was reported. He talked to people that we chat. He did interviews he was coming out as a reporter also great but in my view why was a venture capital firm focusing on reported stories when we have a huge network. This is our defining dining thing a network of networks in fact. So why wouldn't we bring in experts on various topics but not have them diluted in their expertise and so when they come on as gus we have the first person versus third person. I was a huge important thing to me. And it's also buy it for builders and makers and so as you bring in external folks though I mean that puts a lot more pressure. Sure on how you program it how you research for and prep for these podcasts. Talk to me what that's like. Yeah other questions on twitter. One of the most common questions that came up is. How do we program on the PODCASTS? Like how do you even decide to bring on so to give you some more context. I think of a podcast three phases. There's everything that happens before during and after I would say that the majority of the work is before and after the during the podcast itself. Okay so let's talk about programming and then I want to dive into each of those sections okay so in programming it. I think of every episode episode as an op Ed or feature story and so just I can op-ed or feature story you think to yourself. What is the argument or topic or angle? And what is the take. What's differentiated fresh view? And then who are the people to have that. So do you take that same like editing framework as a written author and then think okay. I need to have one main argument and the conclusion at the end so obviously conversation which more organic than that. You actually don't really decide the argument upfront. I would actually argue writing organic. Sometimes you kind of know what you want to talk about but you just kind of go with it and figure it out right it out. It's not like we walk into a room and say hey I'm gonNA come on the podcast and I'm GonNa Argue Ex. That never happens but what we do is figure out. Okay so let me anything good concrete example. Let's say we WANNA do a topic on emojis which I'm very yes and there's lots of different ways to take it. Well Okay I. I think it's really interesting. That emojis are pervading our culture and that yet at the same time people have to propose through proposals specific Emoji to get into the set. So what if we did a conversation with someone who proposed the dumpling Emoji. So Jenny Lee did this. And then Fred Benenson who actually translated Moby Dick into all Emoji Mechanical Turk and you have two people at very different kind of perspective on it. But here's the thing they have in common very different takes both however I principles non-derivative experts who are going at it at a first person way. Secondly through this lens we can and then bring in all the concrete and abstract tangential ideas of governance open versus closed proprietary systems how to design apple versus android twitter facebook Athena and use that as a concrete way to have a really thoughtful conversation. It's funny because you think the podcast is about Emoji but it's actually about how innovation comes about when you're trying to have a system across all how do you even decide. I want episode on Emojis. Oh well that's just what editors do and this is actually probably the broader context for the editorial operation. which is you always ask yourself? What are the top we want to cover and how you may not know the exact how but you have an idea of how and one of the things that I always tell people if we were to take up even a notch? The editorial operation is about innovation and Margaret talked about this in our past episode for ninety nine and I've had a rule of thumb people. Ask Me this on twitter. So many answer this question which his whenever I think about any kind of brand or lens for content. I want it to go through two words and the funny inspiration for this by the way is from Domino magazine. They once did a feature about how you can find your signature style and there's a stylus would come in and say Connie you are urban warrior. This is your to word word to describe your style here Anderson Hurwitz Innovation Brand when I was at wired was informed optimism that came from Chris Anderson and when I was at Xerox Parc it was entrepreneurial the scientists and my point is that you use that as a lens with which to decide what to run what not to run and how to treat it and even how to edit it and that serves as a filter for what makes the cut. And what doesn't we're about telling the stories of the future building explaining it and really how changes our world. So that's been so on the programming piece. How do you actually choose which guest to bring on right so this is again going back to the same philosophy I had for the experts action? I am looking for the expert. Not a expert and and again going back to this idea of an individual better future story for every podcast you ask yourself your future story. Who are the third party experts you would bring in so similarly we look for either the the expert or the next best expert or someone who has very specific expertise we don't really love consultants and derivative experts and people who just talk about the thing versus do the thing and then I look for a complimentary expert and this is sort of the person who can add texture? We don't want to people constantly agreeing. We also don't want them completely disagreeing. Sometimes people talked about in the early days. We should do. podcast where you have procon negate exactly. I Love Bates an Oxford style debates in particular but when I find what I call the panel problem where podcast becomes a conference conference panel. I don't know if you've seen this at every conference you go to inevitably the smartest people four people so smart on a single panel. It'll be the Dulles dumbest conversation and why Issa it regresses to the mean to me. It's a pure statistical thing. It's like in statistics. If you sample from the extremes of a data set you essentially regress to the mean. It is literally the exact same thing happening when you do that with experts so having a pro and con. It's actually a case of negating the decision you WanNa have a thoughtful nuance conversation. So I like to to avoid what I call one note narratives. I don't want an expert who has just a single observation. They're going to ask you to do you kind of give them guidance on what you're going to ask about. Tell me about about the prep on the actual figuring out what questions you WANNA run. Do let people do a dry run. Scripted what do you do so the process is that I tell them. This is is actually baked intolerance emails and how good on that they are not supposed to prep now. People hate that. 'CAUSE THEY WANNA prep. Yeah I'm sure everyone wants to know what you're going to ask the right and in fact I kind of realized early on like Oh just because you like. That doesn't mean everyone else likes it. What's the downside of prepping? That's a great question. So what other things I learned when I was at park and I worked with a really good event producer for this event that we were hosting. O'Reilly media's make was a first inaugural hardware make workshop and one of the event producers on that said I never purpose to people in a green room before an event because inevitably everything they say onstage will refer back to what they were talking about right before coming on stage and you've probably seen that many events and the audience doesn't have that exact same sharpness that they feel when they hear that idea for me. When I record I start the recorder before the person walks in the room and stop stop only when they leave because the best stuff comes when it's a little bit unfiltered so when we prep to answer your question what I tell people is i? Don't want you to actually tell me what you're gonNA say 'cause actually she then the second time if you say it. It's going to be ten times worse. It's much better raw. And Real the courses speakers get freaked out though because they're like what I sound like an idiot right which means that you have to do a lot of editing. Okay we can come back to edit it. I mean it's not by accident that you make a lot of a lot more eloquently. It's not an accident because you guys are also experts. Let's be very clear that one of the reasons that works because at Essex does have experts and one of the number one rules of thumb use for all editorial written podcast or otherwise is the concept what I coined a number of years ago called writer topic fit jokingly. WD and the idea being that the writer has to have the topic fit for the expertise. This is not credential list. It could be earned and expertise it could be data. It could be whatever but they have to have that. So the people who are freaked out about their executives coming on and not having any idea. We don't send questions in advance. I like the conversation. Be Very Organic Ganic. One of the questions people asked on twitter was do you prepare their script and the answer is no. There is no script what we do at the beginning of every episode is we. Sometimes these people I mean met each other. Sometimes you're meeting Christina shoe for the first time and the three of us are doing a conversation about stickers and memes and live James in that case what we do is we'll spend literally five minutes at the beginning maybe less just talking about what we want to talk about meeting topics but not the actual exactly because then I get matinee. Say No no no because people inevitably start sharing what they're going to say and I'm like wait till we get to that part so we do do that and then we just go through and then this is the editing lets you then re organize it into an arc that makes sense and by the way by. I don't mean it has to be linear like point. ABCD in fact. I wanted to be non linear slippery raw with an edge not always clean and clear at wired ahead a phrase which I use up just three turns of nuance like I like the kind the thing what I'm doing with the editing of the story arc is again just listening for how the listener is going to move through it. Do they hear the organization. Do they have to work to follow it. Can they just naturally flow along and learn. Go Okay so that means you're recording. How much footage and our okay? An hour and that gets edited down to what anywhere from twenty to forty five minutes. Twenty to forty five. But I I wouldn't say something about that. This is why there are what I consider to types of editors. There's what I call shaping editors who are people who love as much raw material to work with as possible and then and to kind of carve out the arc their own way I think of this a bit like a sculptor whose given a slab of marble and figures out the shape. That's what I like to do. And then there are editors take what they're given and they do a really good job figuring out how to rearrange it how to put it together. Think about it that to me is more straightforward type of editing as a shaping editor. I look for maximum optionality in my recording in that our recording period because I want to have enough material to carve out the thing that I'm working whereas for some of the other editors they'd so when you're editing taking a blank space oh my God no and in fact i WanNa just deconstruct the myth here because we got a lot of flack for people saying you guys removed the breadth and you guys do this and it's actually actually ironic. We never do that. What we do do in fact is add Brett's because people talk to fat and so sometimes we have to manually slow the Mark Andrews who does speak very quickly just by the way my joke about him? When you get a written transcript is for every written page for every page of a transcript? You can estimate about two minutes and in his case it's like one minute so high but the rest of the firm talks pretty fast too and so for everyone do not listen to our podcast at one point five or two x speed. You should only listen to it at regular speed but back to your question. So it's not I mean we do do some Texan. My rule about ticks is. We don't remove all those ticks. Actually we do. However however remove ticks that her little too repetitive to the point of being disruptive to the listener? And I by the way. Have the TIC. You'RE GONNA love this so when I first started doing podcasting I was only a behind the scenes person so I really was insecure about being a host quite frank host the whole steer. I didn't really want to host because I just thought like no. No no I'm a behind the scenes person. Would you talk about an editor. I can't be a host so it's funny because everyone started their own voice. And I notice all my ticks and the first one would be like. Ah uh-huh got it got it got it Like like like or yet. You're right in a raise versions of this. And so what I would do is I would hear my ticks and insistent mathematically decide conscientiously not to say them guess what happened while they went away and another one popped up in its place. It was like a game of whack-a-mole it didn't matter how many got rid of a new one just jumped right about this place and so my theory about this is and maybe it's grounded in science. Never looked it. Up is that there's something psychological psychological with how we use these ticks whether it's an anxiety management or natural way of thinking or like some kind of dead space words between thought outwards like subconscious words even in any way that is how people talk. So you edit those sounds or phrases and words but the actual content is moving so a lot of the people on twitter asked about edit the podcast from the whole story arc to rest so the edits are to optimize for what I call insights nights per minute. Those three things one. It's at if you have a non cult of personality show and talked about this before how there's a taxonomy of types of shows and cult the personality shows which are very host and personality driven. You mean like Joe Rogan Joe Rogan. That's a perfect example. The audience following Joe Rogan. They almost don't care who is guest is of course or secure Phelan. Musk or someone else but because of that Combo they're willing to listen for three hours of the two of them on Air Smoking Pot and you don't want to abuse users time it's not so much abuse into listener's this time it's at your shares in new mindshare you're competing for that share so the show has to be differentiated if you want people to listen to your show and it doesn't have a culture personality pretty then you have to make sure it's resourceful and they have a high insights per minute. So they're tired they're is that an actual metric or is this like a new claim that I coined but it's not like we measure it formally but it's what we listen for and jazz your question about starting it off. It matters more in the first five to ten minutes. Because it's just editing an article so I call myself chart beat editor because when I was at wired is obsessed with the leaderboard and I of course like love seeing where I wasn't especially 'cause I had a flailing section that I wanted to take to the top and so I was very motivated by that but then what I notice and chart beat besides the leaderboard is you saw where listeners or sorry we're readers dropped off and that was super valuable to me because then I started noticing patterns of. Oh well if people drop off here I need to work harder to really get the nut. Graph up here before the third paragraph and the more. I work to make sure that every sentence is calculated to keep the listener the reader engaged the better the peace and then by the middle and the end. When they're committed you have a lot more room to be Loosey Goosey and funds so so in the podcast is the exact same thing? The type beat model that I brought here. This is how I learned editing just by doing so to me. The first three to five minutes are incredibly important because the highest drop off point so we use the intro as a technique where we actually recorded after the fact not before entering the person who it is a topic. The range various ways of doing it. We experimented for a while with having snippets. We did all kinds of experiments throughout the years. But what I find is that the intro is a tool to let you start the conversation in medias res- which is the term from literature for starting it in the middle of the story and why that's so important is if you don't have a culture personality show like a Joe Rogan and Elon. Musk if you have any someone new. WHO's really smart? But no one's I've heard of if they start out with their personal story. That's probably going to be boring because they're not bought into this person they don't know who it is however if you start with their advice and the thing that you find resourceful and useful at a listener then the listener is going to be like. Oh that's interesting and remained hooked and then by the middle or the end you can then weave in their story so so the editing is about re flowing and re architect eating that Ark for that type of journey of listener through the entire episode and back on this note of scripting scripting versus not scripting. One of the folks on twitter asked. Do you guys do these sort of informal hallway conversations and the answer is that's how they actually started but what I found is If you're really trying to grow the show it was only when we started editing. It that it significantly you look at the charts. It was like upward curve. What the edits and that goes back to the fact that if you're not a cult the personality people don't I mean doesn't it bug you hear people just Chit Chat? We're not you kind of get to the point. So we always talk conversations but mostly they're just kind of these organic conversations nations that are working towards some point of view so tactically. How are you doing this? Are you using a documentary question. One of the questions people had on twitter was about technology stocks. So a couple of things on this. So I'm embarrassed to say that the way I edit podcasts is by starting with the transcript because I'm a word person and do who like a rough paper cut and I actually do this without listening to the podcast. After the paper the technical audio editor turns it into a first cut. And the reason I do it this way is because I want to the whole shape of the narrative without being distracted by the sound. The problem with that approach is that when you see on a text as dimensional and flat whereas invoice. It's much more multi dimensional. There's multiple factories might be super excited in one place and then you suddenly have up talking down talk and then you put it out right next to sentence where I'm quiet. That's exactly it so that's why it's kind of dangerous. Method is why the tool script is a really interesting one because they actually democratized process so to me the first round is about seeing the global arc. The second round is about about listening to it and really seeing how truly works and flows and the third round is really about sort of polishing it and making sure it just has this ease of listening so when you're editing can you boil l.. Let down till principles that we should take away. Let me think about editing stuff. Yeah so I guess a number one thing I would say is the biggest difference between text and audio is that audio is a living living breathing organism so every change you make introduces a new interaction effect. It's like you're adding a new variable and so every time you decide like in this. I'm going to do do this when you listen to your next cut. It messes something else up. Which is why tools like descriptors so important because they shortened the time between what I call design and manufacturing phase of designing something like a semiconductor chip the ability to have that sort of iterative feedback loop is critical? Which is why all the new editors are getting trained on descript so the living breathing organism the different framework required choir? Then is what it means. It's not uni dimensional which I mentioned at has multiple layers and I described that for every podcast. There's five dimensions over five. Levers even that you can use the one is obviously the content itself like what the substance of what people are saying. One is the energy of the individual speaker their tone their excitement. This flat and that can't be edited. Kennett well not really. I mean you can actually do some manipulations like rays of little to make some not sound so flat but you don't WanNa distort the break. Third thing is charisma. Sorry that's a charisma of the speaker. So that's not just their level of energy for how they talk but they're sort of charismatic way of drawing people to their ideas that edible not really. You can do other things because what I find with. Charismatic speakers is the often also talking talking platitudes. As one of the things I tell our editors is you actually don't want to be efficient with the words you WanNa cut the pod statement and then keep the specific wonky statement so then then they don't come off as like bs and the fourth one is chemistry. which is the interaction of the guests all in the room? So what do you do with chemistry when sometimes. We're meeting that person for the the first time I don't think having a pre meeting helps with that chemistry so I think a great episode for this maybe as an example would be me and David Hewlett when we did a podcast. About what time is it. And here's a fun. Chemistry a joint. It was about six months in and we did a podcast about his career at the editing site. I put his story at the end because I don't know people know him that well so we started with his advice for founders. There's so that was like one of the decisions because by the way the fifth variable is narrative flow and anyway we have such chemistry because we had this fight in the middle of the episode about how to Pronounce Jeff Steph or gift. which way do you say? Oh my God I say Jif not give which is what he says. Let me get me started on that but like you guys episode eavesdrop on that fight but I kept it because it conveyed a certain chemistry so to answer your question you have these five levers and the job of the editor is to take the material they're given with whether fully all over the place like my material or more linear arc like others and then shape it into what it needs to be an edited so often that means removing redundancies. But not to the point of being so efficient it sounds like mechanical. It means tightening flow insights permanent. And then this is a beauty now of this five framework if you have like okay. Chemistry Eh great content. You can work with that by rearranging the order because then you keep people hooked by the flow if you have wonderful chemistry the and energy but very little substance you can shorten it so you have the energy but reduced the length because the payoff is so low. So basically what I'm saying is you can use one of these. He's five levers and manipulate them to get more or less. Dial it down or upper down to get what you need and of course. There's only so much you can do. But what's really cool is due script has a company called Lyre Bird and they are doing synthetic audio. And what's up with timing. Is there a sweet spot. For how long a podcast should be. Yep this is so funny because what I found when asked people what radio link for podcasts. Guess what the answer was exactly proportional to their commute or workout time so if the commute was fifteen minutes about was a perfect length of there was forty five. That was great. Is there like the time that you aim for no. We don't time it seems like the sweet spot is somewhere between twenty and thirty minutes by philosophy about time and length and this is so strong both for written and unspoken content is I think discussions about length are so arbitrary religious debate. It should be as long as it needs to be. So gratuitously long cut it if it needs. That'd be longer because we're going in depth than it's so interesting why would we cut that arbitrarily. But this is the caveat to that the payoff and the insight permanent has to be proportional to the length so so if the person's listening for a long time there's enough payoff. That's a complete waste of their time. They're never going to trust you. You destroy that trust you lose them as a fan. So that's the first thing the second thing to your question about the idea elaine. I do believe that short-form podcasting is a really important form. That's one of the trends in the space and I had a moment kind of an insight was. I had this realization. That gosh these other people are doing news. Shows like the New York Times daily inbox today explained and again. It's the reported model third party experts which is Great. But why aren't we. We doing a first person where people know. This industry are commenting on it directly and do that way so I was like I want to show and news. podcasting is actually a growing trend. And then why don't we combine it with short-form so then I thought let's do it for sixteen minutes because Andrews and Horwitz Sixteen Sixteen. Why not so head? Sixteen minutes now. I think this must be much harder to edit though. Oh well I I have not gotten it sixteen minutes sometimes. It's like seventeen sometimes at nineteen. I try to only have it below twenty a couple of times so for the first I applaud. I tried doing it reverend. Just one full take a few times and then what I have found. This is actually true for you in particular you said different things on each take and I was like. Oh my God what was she said. There was so good and what she said. The other was also really good. So I use the editing. Too Dense seem together the best parts of what you said and if you think about insights it's per minute and the fact that you have only this many minutes how do you add value for the listener. You want the highest insight per minute and the editing. So yes it's now a more highly edited show and I'm kicking Aqui. Myself for it because it takes a lot of time a lot of work and it's frigging aiming to be weekly. How do you think about frequency of programming? Does it have to come out at the same time every week. funnily that's another area where people have a lot of theories and when I first joined someone from the outside to me it should be exactly every Friday at three. PM There's all kinds of theories around this and that's all wonderful. Here's the three things I learned. The best content will always win time of day. All the other stuff aside as you know I. Am Master of timing things. As how I made my section successful and writing their specific timing for Zeitgeist morality but for pus there is no such thing so someone asks on twitter about the tools is for creators and distributors of Podcast for people seeking to start their own podcast because not everyone is a big brand like this is actually sub stack which people think of as a newsletter only tool. It's really about connecting writers and people with their audiences so people are seeking a place to both host and distribute what better place than within the email ecosystem. Because you really own own your audience when you own that. Here's the thing people may talk about a podcast on social like you'll see a ton of people talking about the a certain episode but the reality that they're actually listening to it is very a little and so I think that the evolution of social podcasting which I know you're interested in as well. It's still too early so technically podcast have what I call quote slow-burn in Baraladei. They don't just go viral overnight. It takes about a week like the first wave a listens. Isn't that first week. And then you kind of see it grow from there kind of like how I watch. TV Now oh Oh my God. That's such a good point. Well you and I did a podcast on a podcast about podcasting. People should listen Episode if they want to hear our thoughts on the trends because we did talk about binge watching and other things back on the timing thing. I do believe aditorial especially for written content and this thing that I dubbed the mcklusky curve after Mark mccloskey. My former colleague got wired. He's now at sports illustrated. I believe but anyway anyway he always talks about how you add value. I say it's when you're offering something new or differentiated or leading early in the cycle. Or you do it in the end of a news and discussion cycle where it's after. It's very noisy. And you have a very fresher differentiated take and kind of being in the middle of all the noise of the worst position to be in in terms of value for the timing of it. So that's like literally my philosophy ossified one thing. I didn't mention in the cycle. Someone asked about the cycle from ideas to publishing that a big focus for us is around more promotion. And you know. Oh that's sort of the whole cycle of things and so one of the experiments by had wanted us to do was to start doing audio grams and people promote podcast through video you know the whole definition of what is the podcast blurring Tom Webster. Edison research sharing how for many young people especially those that are streaming whether on video or audio and spotify. They don't know the difference between whether it's on video or not so when people say subscribing your favorite APP it could be youtube what about sound effects music. Yeah so on the sound effects and music. We tried right so Hannah did a great episode for Halloween. If years ago where she had sound effects for the person who was talking about the why behind the weird I would like us to have music on our show was as long as at corporate overproduce Lick. That's not our aesthetic at all. However I do think we need that and it adds more dimensionality? Just sets the tone in the beginning. So for Ben's new show. It's Ben an poets and Chaka Singapore they host a show called hustling tech which is guides technology for hustlers. But what it really means. It's really helping people use technology to help themselves. which is an amazing mazing concept? Basically for that show. I did add music and it was interesting because I didn't want like stock music and so I asked Chris Lions you know who runs our cultural leadership fund. But I didn't even know he'd put his own sample in there. He sent me like six tracks including all these stock things that had a more hip hop sound to it and it turns turns out one. We all liked happen to be his personal so I was so excited but it sets the tone for the show and I do want that the reason we won't be able to do it those because licensing for songs is very complex complex is not just copyright it's like layers and layers of roughly one of the things that you're experimenting with. I get almost sounds like you're treating startup or like a product totally had a moment of emotional title where I got a little teary eyed. Because I was so low for a long time I it was me and Michael. That was so low for a long time then I hired hand that it was me and her and then about almost a year a year ago hired Amelia to be managing editor. And she's growing the team so that we can scale this and I had proposed that we hire an editor for every vertical verticals. We can really just go deep and kind of channelize incites there and truly self select the audience so anyway to that point I kind of got emotional when I saw that all these deaths that had been empty around me had people sitting in them like I got kind of like Oh my God is so start up. CEO feels this. Isn't I'm in go because I've never done that. Okay what are some new experiments. You're thinking about so we'll in general in podcasting. I'm fascinated by audio fiction. That's like a really interesting and important trend however I cannot for the life of me think about what our version of audio fiction would be. Maybe I'll just maybe do think personally so who knows at some point. I can still waiting. I know so am I.. experiments in our podcast. Okay so there's a blending of as you talk about you wrote about this in your knowable post that you get this found time with audio one of the things that I'm interested in. Is that if the blinds definitions of podcasting is blurring. And you really talk about this more than anyone. Connie so I feel like I'm preaching to the choir here but the idea that audiobooks and podcasts and educational content all kind of blurs together for that same reason reason. Why wouldn't people listen to blog posts in podcast form or email newsletters and podcasts for him? So I asked them the other partners to read out loud their blog posts on air. I'm probably read a couple and I do want to experiment more with us doing more content in the audio form in that way. There's already tools like autumn out there in media outlets but just more or like a voiced way and not so manual. There's like a new set of tools coming about in that what are some experiments. That didn't work early. Oh that's a good question so very early on Michael. Michael Coppola recorded a conversation with four kids from a youth and Tech Conference and he told me about the footage and how complicated it was and I was like. Why don't you make it into like a narrative where you narrate it and he did a beautiful job turning it into sort of an audio narrative stories? I'd like to do that and it's not that it didn't work. It's just that we haven't invested in it because we were so building one style so like to do more of that. Experiment didn't work so back to the question. You asked me about the ideal length so I thought well. What if I experimented with interstitial 's where we could segment in episode sewed and our specials like music intermission almost like a pause point that the listener would know? Hey if you wanNA take a break. This is a good spot. My thesis at the time was that people on campus kids on campus at Stanford told me they were listening to it like well walking a class and they don't WanNa listen to a long episode because a commitment was so big so I was like well. What if it's a long episode segment for them like the way you have chapter turns? That didn't really work because then I realized very fast from other people like a DA. I don't need that my upholds my spot right so it doesn't really matter so it's kind of orchestrated and contrived so that didn't really work although that might come back. Because as with all experiments sometimes it's a matter of time probably do one hundred little experiments that you just don't even and think about sometimes yes but the reality is that I actually think you should have more focus and various Pacific focus and a strategy for the existing Z podcast. And what I believe and where it's going going so I have a very particular vision for that and when you have a vision for of course the big podcast but also each particular episode. Are you editing. Until it hits that vision region or your individual episode. Oh my God. This is the hardest question believe it or not because right now we're on boarding some new editors. Yeah and how do you you teach other Pe- well this is what I'm struggling with. And frankly I read Ben's book recently and it's beautiful by the way. And how do I think about doing this culturally and thinking about it. This is the exact challenge because I learned podcast by myself like everyone can do it and I'm realizing that the way we do things is quite things that I took for granted as implicit or not that explicit. They're very toss it things or mindsets that are really unique and foreign so to answer that question. The answer you can't use when you're scaling is we'll know it when I know it like you. No the line from Justice Potter Stewart About Porn. He said no it when I see it I mean that's how I think about investing sometimes really instinct so this goes back to that whole like view of instinct but the reality why is that instinct is trained by experience. But what I find is taste is very difficult to train and you can't just say to someone we'll when you hear it. That's not a good enough answer so it's frankly not helpful is not helpful. And it's hard. I don't have a full answer yet but I will say that you can figure out the bar by having some principles for what you're doing. So what aditorial principles. They're things like I mentioned non-derivative experts true to the maker. The culture of adding very fresh and differentiated take. We don't want to see what everyone else is saying. The Art of timing does this meet. The bar is really adding value to the conversation as a signal versus noise. Is it more of the same. Is it spinning forward. I use that phrase all the time spent for its been forward spin it forward. How do we do it at the same time? How do we make it concrete because our audience is not just you know people like big fortune? Five hundred companies thinking talking about the future of tech or startups. I mean I hear people talk about the podcast. Who Don't work and talk to me is a bar of success right there? Actually I describe it as the PODCAST has influencing the influencers vo answers and so to me when media outlets reporters day like I listened to that episode. I love that because they may not write it up but informs they're thinking what am i. Big Principles does is that we need to either provide a framework for how to think about something is not an answer or tease apart hype versus reality and think about like how they transact VR ar whatever the the topic is made it. play out concretely. Then informs the influencers Gimme a concrete example. Like what's the proudest moment of that. So one of my most favorite moments and stories about the podcast is that that a senator a US. Senator was listening to the episode and this is a testament to the network. They'd come across our content. And that whole thing kind of reinforces like flywheel. And he heard the episode. It was about health data and he literally had his staffer reach out to us and the staffer quoted his line to us like what he said. And he's like I can't believe this idea is not already being done already. I want to propose it in the upcoming session as legislation. Can you please put me in touch with founder. So you're affecting policy. I literally call it policy by podcast now. I don't actually think that came about but that is one of my all time favorite story. Wow that's awesome. And by the way in the early days in terms of thinking about the audience there was an incredibly strong brand that mark mark and Ben and Margaret Built as a base foundation for sure and the network is the thing that continually reinforces it but initially I had to beg. My contacts. People Edited People in the Book Publishing Industry to get them on the podcast because they didn't really know a six Z be. It was a fledgling. Nascent podcast it. Had it had like an established presence and so I- convinced one or to the key publicists and publishers. Because they ran their excerpts in my section I then got the once. I got one big name author in than the rest started following and then I started serta getting pitched because he must get pitched time not only pitch books. We get at least five to ten emails a week that are just pitching then of course people book authors going podcast became a thing because it actually moves book sales by the way one author told me that he came on our show and we moved a thousand books and like a few days. Because it's a very self selected audience that's listening and very motivated and there's no better wait but we try to break the script for book podcasts. And one of my rules is again going back to editorial principles of differentiation. Is if you have someone like Yuval Harari. Who's been doing the circuit? And he's like on every major podcast show and he's a really well read author and the person who put him on. Is My friend Rim Jim Day. She's one of the people who took very early bet on us. He has his talk about something different front with you. Go his book but we have to do it in different way so I want to go back to a topic. You mentioned early on which is how that first year. You didn't like hearing Your Voice GonNa get on the podcast but now I have been with you and public where people run up to you and say they recognize your voice. How does that feel being a voice celebrity? I've seen people want to take photos with you. But what does that feel like. It goes back to sort of vulnerability of being a person who wants to be behind the scenes. And if you know this but my first two two years I didn't even put my name on the byline of the podcast. I know in fact people found me proactively which is crazy to me. Because I thought the goal of the host. Because it's what editors editors do tremendous work shaping editors do tremendous work to shape a piece a practically co write them but I did not include myself on the byline because I thought it was my job to be invisible as the host and the moderator and I always view myself as a shepherd for the audience. That is my job. Although it's funny because over the years then people started finding me. I eventually added my name on the byline. And it's incredible when people come up to you because frankly when you're sitting in a room and this is what I love about podcasting is that they know you. I love that. They feel like they know me because I'm in their ear but there's a huge a symmetry there but anyway it's amazing and powerful and moving to see your work in action and I'm so grateful to our fans and to Andrews and Horowitz for lending owning pockets got off the ground Dixon and Kim and Michael started it but after a while. I don't think really people paid attention to it. I think Merck told me about a year and a half in surprised us. All I didn't get people didn't really think it'd be so big but like I said we had to earn those listeners. Because it's not like you have brand and they come it's that you have the guests and the listen and it gets better and this is where the editing comes in. Yeah I mean I feel like I've seen you etta and work magic like even. Are we chat piece that we did years ago. Like you made that into into a completely different thing. I've seen you at it ever since and it's really funny because once you're in the zone like one time I was watching you on Google. Docs edit and I really felt like I was watching a painter paint. Ain't just saw these like sentences moving around and it was like watching a paintbrush like so beautiful. I love it. You're saying don't make me cry on the PODCAST. Like where their podcasts. At surprised is you things that made you cry. The podcast made me cry. There's actually been to three. So wasn't Leyla Jinnah of Samah. Source there empowering hiring people around the world with micro work. They found a way for a woman who previously had no spending money to be able to for the first time in her life by makeup. And that sounds so frivolous but that made me. It completely started crying. I edited it out but that was one of the episodes that made me cry another one. I made me cry. Recently was Ben in shock when they interviewed D Sean and Cherie About Maven and there was a moment that just brought me to tears and you should listen to that episode but that was also another episode. That made me cry. So I wanNA talk about your policy on cursing on the PODCASTS. Do you do it. Do you bleep it out. It's funny because I felt a lot of tension about it. I remember once as Ben and Margaret about it. Because I was like you guys think is bad. Customer I stop and Ben was entrepreneurship is hard. It's a struggle is meant to be hard and then I started getting folks on twitter tumbling very helpful in some being judgmental. You know. We don't think he should 'cause he's such a beautiful voice and you sound so nice. Is it necessary. That would probably drive view to swear even more it did. I wanted to keep. It is because I believe when women. We're asked to conform to so many things no up talk no this no that. There's so tell me different things and I'm just like you know what I wanna be me raw and real but here's why did finally decide very recently to stop cussing on the show and no. I don't bleep it the open. funnily enough on the podcast you and I did with Nick Webb a podcast about podcasting someone on twitter totally tease me. They're like I think it's hilarious. That you bleeped out the name of a company to protect their confidentiality. Yeah but you didn't bleep out your f-bomb so now edited out. Why did you guys talk? Because their kids in the car and in the beginning I was like. Oh we'll don't listen but now and we've talked about your shares and you mindshare. People need to listen to podcast with kids in the car. And by the way the other China I think is super interesting about podcasting. Is these new wave of shows just for kids Eh. One of my favorite things. I feel like podcasts. Taking some previously just information and education. And you're forced to make entertaining Ah You're right well I think the job of the moderator for me is to shepherd for the audience and that means including stitching together statements helping the listeners follow along with the arc summarizing and explaining but to the entertainment part I agree with you I do believe the future of podcasting is merging with entertainment and that is going to be interesting to see. Tell me a little bit about what software for what technology is like the heart. Not just the software. Yeah yeah so we use Zumra quarter and we use shure mics and use like standard at one point. We use. How Mike for our clamped to use mixer? Oh No so in the early days of the podcast. People keep complaining on twitter. Like listen to podcasts. Doesn't sound good. I thought musicians always use mixers well one of the negative legacies of podcasting. Hi cussing tools. Is that a lot of them. Are grounded in the music world versus made natively four podcasting. Which is why like do script and other tools about basically we got rid of the mixer and then our sound improved proved drastically because we can manipulate more because record how John How to get rid of the mixer so this is my biggest most visible partner in crime who I want to shout to is our sound engineer stubborn Morris? This guy brought him in and I was like. Please fix our sound people complaining. I cannot take no for an answer you need to tell what's wrong and I want it fixed but I'm just like they're surely as a solution. It was the funniest thing because what he did was basically removed the mixer. He's like you guys don't need this. That's what people use for live events. You're editing you want individual tracks usually plugging directly into the record order not having a mixer in between so. That's what we did not that expensive. I give a lot of startups advice on how to do this stuff and the list of equipment. It's all under a thousand dollars. We we have sound panels and acoustic but not really reused really standard equipment. I think the primary thing in the tech stack is that we're now on simple cast. which is our hosting platform? I think of them as like the stripe of podcasting because they have an API model. And we're getting a lot of features in that and particularly going to be more important as we expand to more and more shows the other thing is that as everyone knows the analytics were podcast have been very very broken and very difficult because the industry has not standardized. And what's great is that simple Koss has been going through the process of IAB certification for me. The wishlist has been completion. Where do people drop off? I went chart beat like analytics for things I want to know about audience. Overlap between shows I wanNA know where are people are more engaged. Are there parts where they're repeating and trying to listen again like there's so many million things I want to knows what's also great as Amelia hired. I actually credit to Andrew on this because he had suggested lasted Andrew Chan. Yeah as far as part of the hiring plan he suggested we hire a growth in audience development person in addition to the editors and. I'm really glad he did. Because Amelia earhart a wonderful growth an audience development person for US jared and he is very much thinking about how to bring the promotion sighed as we're growing and thinking about okay. We have our main show now. We have the sixteen minutes thing we have hustling tag like. What does the future of our podcast library? Look I think is oh. Margaret has a great phrase. She describes our podcast and the editorial As a platform which I think is exactly right for the podcast. I think of us as expanding into Mormon network network meaning like multiple show show multiple shows. I want to try different types of shows but you also want to abandon your audiences so I don't want to arbitrarily start a show and then if we only have like a few episodes not keep that feed which is why some of these shows are starting off a series and then we can break it out into its own show in its own feed capsule collections in the beginning and then they break out for some restart from the get go so sixteen minutes that I knew from the beginning would be its own show but what we did was we let it run on the main feed for the first ten episodes someone on twitter actually asked I thought was cutest question. They said that why it's not on the main feed anymore. This is the reason why and then we ripped off the band aid and told people it's no longer on this feed. Its people only subscribe there and you see like a big spike when you gave keep those call outs. And that's because I need to build a new show there and let me just tell you how painful that is because after building a show at this five hundred episode and now starting at like fifteen yeah. It's a very different game. And it's like exercising you muscles again but I love it. 'cause I missed that zero one second child. I guess maybe it's very similar because you're going back to scratch again in some ways and that's how you build that type of a network also we will be vertical ising some of the channels so that people can subscribe to feeds so we're going to have a separate channel initially for Jason Sie Bio and that's great because audience can self select and if People WanNa talk about journal articles without people who don't hear about crypto policy. You don't have to mix those and this is great right because this is to me the future of media. I'm a big believer in Kevin Kelly's one thousand true fans and then going from there. Initially when I started thinking and mapping out the territory podcasts. I literally I thought about as mapping like sales territory and so I want to conquer the open source community I want to conquer no. Gs let me bring someone on from there clearly. Mapped out. Geographically in community is to kind of growing energy. This is how to take over the world suffering in the world but so is audio. I am so honored to be able to interview today. Happy five hundred episode. Thank you and thank you to everyone for listening and also thank you to our incredible amazing team here. I want to thank especially our audio engineers seven Morris and Tommy Herron and the first editor. I hired Hannah. Tim Who's now been here for three years. And now Amelia and the rest of our team who joined dos Lawrence Zoran who are Starting to podcast and thank you to market especially thank you to Kim who reached out and hired me and also was funny. She actually told me she had never thought aww into passing and I was like me neither but I'm so grateful to the firm. Frankly it's a miracle that they would be so supportive of US doing this and I'm so thankful for that. So thank you everyone and thank you all for a sixteen podcast.

twitter editor Ben Mark Andrews Connie Chan Connie Dixon Horowitz Margaret Built writer Michael Copeland Emojis Horwitz Michael founder Joe Rogan Joe Rogan OP EDS head of marketing general partner Chris
Wed. 01/20  A16Z To Get Into The Media Business?

Techmeme Ride Home

18:42 min | 6 months ago

Wed. 01/20 A16Z To Get Into The Media Business?

"Welcome to the tech main ride home for wednesday january twentieth. Twenty twenty one. I'm brian mccullough. Today is her wits about the spin up. Its own media platform anthony. Eleven taos ski. Gets a pardon and jack mob resurfaces netflix's about to start printing money. And they're about to give you a shuffle play button. And why ben thompson thinks intel is even more trouble than everybody thinks. Here's what you missed today. In the world of tech is andriessen. Horowitz about to get into the media business and by that. I don't mean invest in a company that does media but actually become a media entity of its own. That might be too glib away to characterize this news but the information is reporting that a sixteen z is planning to launch an opinion section on its website that will publish articles related to technology and business from outside contributors quote. The firm currently has two editorial roles open to help the new efforts. it is in search of an executive editor and opinions editor. A recent job listing by the firm for the executive editor position said the firm wants to quote dramatically scale our editorial operations across coverage areas across mediums especially video to grow and lead a talented team of creatives producers talent and marketers and quote andriessen horowitz's editorial position is quote unapologetically. Protect pro future pro change. According to one job listing on the firm site quote. But we are also informed. Optimists not freewheeling futures making predictions without any skin in the game and quote andrews and horowitz's moving in the direction of owned media not earned media said a person close to the firm meaning that it wants to produce content rather than work with existing press outlets the firm wants a quote more formalized vehicle to get narratives and stories out there without having to go through the press. The person said so. Don't choke she. A former editor at tech magazine. Wired joined andriessen in two thousand fourteen as its editor in chief will oversee the expansion which comes amid growing tensions between prominent venture capitalists and the news media choke she works for market venom. Occurs in andriessen horowitz operating partner and co founder of prominent tech public relations agency outcast who has long overseen the depiction of both andriessen horowitz and its portfolio companies in the media and quote. So this is one of those times where i need to do. One of those disclosures for you. The disclosure is i'm friendly with both social and market and have had many conversations with them about podcasting over the years plus when my book came out. You might remember chris. Dickson interviewed me for the sixteen podcast and of course andriessen horwitz has made several of their folks available for this podcast over the years. Most recently connie chan a few weeks ago. Let me quote from eric. Newcomers sub stack which originally broke the news. Because i think it's sort of sums up the angle. For andriessen horowitz here quote today. Roughly ten percent of the two hundred person firm works on its marketing team. The company is expanding its editorial operation. Talk to anyone around the firm and choke. She's in house. Media strategy is the future of the firm one. Communications person remarked to me. They've become a media company. Basically unquote companies and venture firms have long tried their hands at content marketing. That's what all those medium posts are for the thing that's unique about vinegars and cheese. Operation is simply that they do it well and at a greater scale their podcasts are actually interesting and since the media has adopted an extremely negative posture toward the tech industry. There's a big appetite for coverage with a more upbeat slant. Andriessen horowitz can fill that market demand and quote. Well i suppose you could debate to what degree. The media truly is negative about tech. I suppose but. I also think that this tweet from tech names own founder. Gabe rivera is maybe the right way to think about all this quote. My guess is rather than countering anti tech reporting. This could succeed in simply promoting ideas. The tech press isn't interested in or capable of conveying which sounds potentially good to me and quote once again. There is a tech angle to the political news of the day because president trump has pardoned x. Waymo an uber engineer. Anthony lansky quoting and gadget a press release from the white house noted tech billionaires. Peter thiel and palmer lucky were among those supporting a pardon for levski and it makes the claim that this engineer quote paid a significant price for his actions and plans to devote his talents to advance the public good and quote and also noted that his plea covered only a single charge. Omitting mention of the thirty three charges he'd been indicted on. He had been sentenced to eighteen months in prison. But as tech crash reported at the time was not required to report until the covid nineteen pandemic eased. A court ordered levin ascii to pay google. One hundred seventy nine million dollars to resolve a contract dispute while his plea included seven hundred fifty six thousand dollars in restitution and a ninety five thousand dollar fine a settlement between uber and google subsidiary. Waymo handed over equity stake worth about two hundred forty five million dollars at the time as well as a promise. Not to use the technology taken from google in december uber sold its entire self driving unit to another company aurora last year. Anthony eleven pleaded guilty to one count of stealing materials from google where he was an engineer for its self driving car efforts before leaving to found a startup that he sold to uber. The judge said during his sentencing that his theft of documents and e-mails constituted the quote biggest trade secret crime. I have ever seen and quote. So i do wonder how folks inside. Google are feeling about this this morning and of course i assume this pardon would have no impact on any civil liabilities right or has that already been settled as well over the weekend. Someone i can't remember who tweeted something. Along the lines of remember when jack ma disappeared and everyone was worried about him but then one guy on. Cnbc went on tv and said. Don't worry jacks just laying low and then we all stopped talking about it. but ma never actually resurfaced. So what about that. Well my has officially made his first public appearance by addressing teachers on an online conference quoting bloomberg moss spoke briefly on wednesday during an annual event. He host recognize rural teachers in one video. Of the event circulated online china's most famous entrepreneur can be seen touring a primary school in his hometown of hangzhou. Ma who had stayed out of public view since regular suspended. The initial public offering of his fintech company at group told the teachers. He'll spend more time on philanthropy. He didn't mention his run ins with beijing. Aunt confirmed the authenticity of the video. I posted on an online blog but declined to comment. Further shares of alibaba. The ecommerce giant co founded by that owns about a third of ant jumped eight and a half percent in hong kong and shares. Were up almost the same level in premarket. Us trading and quote because we get so many messages and documents things start to blend together and sound the same more. Effective writing is the key to making better connections. Grammar lee premium gives you real time insights and guidance on tone word choice clarity and more so you can communicate clearly and confidently. I've told you before. I use gramley premium every day to help produce this show and i'm certainly erudite and clear in my writing right. Don't answer that but seriously. Eileen graham early quite a bit for things like clarity suggestions feature that makes your sentences clear concise and crisp by cutting out on jerry words redundant words and vocabulary suggestions which helps you avoid overuse words and redundancies to keep readers or listeners. Engaged improve your writing on all of your favorite sites and apps like outlook g mail twitter linked in and more because grammar early. Works right where you're already writing and you can elevate your writing twenty percent off grammar premium by signing up at grammar dot com slash tech mean. That's twenty percents off. Grammar lee premium at g. r. a. m. m. a. l. y. dot com slash tech mean star. Twenty twenty one with fresh food. That cooks itself. I've told you about how much i love because it super convenient and it's super tasty but also it helped me break my unhealthy. Takeout food habit to via is healthy food. Fresh raw real food not process stuff. Healthy stuff uses real carefully. Sourced ingredients ingredients you or your grandmother. Good field comfortable stocking in your own kitchen. They leave artificial to competitors. You can choose gluten free with avella you can choose vegetarian meals. And hey if your waistline has expanded during quarantine. You can also choose calorie conscious meals for example as i'm recording this down in my kitchen in the my greek veggie lentil salad with crumbled fettah almonds and pickled. Red onions is cooking. it's delicious. I've had it before. And it's only three hundred twenty calories. That's a satisfying but light lunch. If all the other reasons to try to having convinced you how 'bout healthy meals cooked for you go to tavola dot com slash ride to see what i mean and for one hundred and fifty dollars off. That's tova dot com slash ride. Brave has become the first major web browser to natively support the f. s. protocol. What is that well. If you're in a place where you might want to access censored content on occasion you need to get schooled about ips. Crony zd net released in two thousand and fifteen stands for interplanetary file system. It is a classic peer to peer protocol similar to bittorrent and designed to work as a decentralized storage system ibm s allows users to host content distributed across hundreds or thousands of systems which can be public ips gateways or private s nodes users who want to access any of this content must enter. You are in the form of s. Under normal circumstances users would download this content from the nearest nodes or gateways rather than a central server. However this only works if users have installed an ip desktop or browser extension brave says that with version. One point one nine users will be able to access your cells that start with i s cohen forward slash forward slash directly from the browser with no extension needed and that brave will natively support s links. Going forward since some major websites like wikipedia have versions users in oppressive countries can now use braves new. Ipf support to go around national firewalls and access content. That may be blocked inside their country for political reasons and is available via s in addition brave also says that its users can also install their own node with one click with version one point one nine and helped contribute to hosting some of the content. They download to view and quote. So you might remember when. I decided to abandon ship on chrome last year. And y'all convince me. To give brava try a year on. I continued to be thrilled with that decision. All the goodness of chrome without all the badness and now all this added goodness as well had it. Sneaks up on me every quarter but tech. Earning season is kicking off once again as always led by net flicks which last night reported q. For revenue up twenty one and a half percent year over year and global streaming paid memberships that surpassed two hundred million for the first time. All of this sent the stock up over twelve percent net flicks. I passed one hundred million subscribers back in two twenty seventeen but maybe the real news was this quoting cnbc that flex reported earnings for the fourth quarter of twenty twenty after the bell on tuesday announcing it is quote very close to being free cash flow positive and is considering stock buybacks. This year it expects to be around break even on flow net flicks station of soon becoming free cash flow. Positive would bring to life the bull case for the stock. Netflix said it would no longer need to raise external financing for daily operations and with even explore returning cash to shareholders. The company said it intends to pay down more of its debt as well it's raised fifteen billion dollars in debt since two thousand eleven and currently has eight point two billion in cash on hand and quote. So what we're talking about here is the financial flywheel that folks like matthew ball have always predicted would kick in at some point for net flicks is kicking into gear exactly as predicted and exactly when predicted to so good news for netflix. Come for that netflix's about to really begin printing money news but stay for news. You can use like this. Netflix says it's shuffle play feature which lets netflix's algorithm choose what you'll watch will be rolling out globally to all users in the first half of this year quoting tech crunch shuffled play puts a big button right on the net flicks home screen beneath your profile icon when clicked. Netflix randomly plays content. It's personalization algorithms. Thinks you'll like this could include a movie. You're currently watching something you've saved to your watch list or a title that similar to something you've already watched for example. A variation has also been spotted in the tv apps sidebar navigation more recently found this cyber option relabeled as shuffled play instead of play something as before in addition as you'll start scrolling down through the netflix's home screen on the tv. You'll eventually come across a screen. That explains what the option is and points to the new button with a red arrow. Not sure what to watch this page. Ask before explaining how shuffle play works. The button has already appeared on some users. Netflix app for tv devices. Due to the ongoing tests net flicks tells us the feature is still being tested. Only tv devices not other platforms like web or mobile. It declined to say how many users or percentage had been opted into the test to date end quote and finally today again. We've only obliquely mentioned the trouble. Intel seems to be in. We haven't really had the chance to dig deeper so innovative that i point you to yesterday's newsletter from none other than ben thompson at ben says that intel is actually in more danger than its profits and balance sheet suggests at the moment he says intel should immediately spinoff. It's manufacturing business unless the us could somehow subsidize it. In the interests of having a strong national semiconductor industry quote in short intel is losing share npc's even as it is threatened by amd for x eighty six servers in the datacenter and even as cloud companies like amazon integrated backwards into the processor. I haven't even touched on the increase in other specialized data center operations. Gpu based applications for machine learning which are designed by companies like nvidia manufactured by samsung. What makes the situation so dangerous for. Intel is the volume issue. I noted above the company already miss mobile and while server chips provided the growth of the company needed to invest in manufacturing over the last decade. The company can't afford to lose volume at the very moment. It needs to invest more than ever intel to be split in two yes. Integrating design and manufacturing was the foundation of intel's moat for decades that immigration has become a straightjacket for both sides of the business. Intel designs are held back by the company's struggles in manufacturing while its manufacturing has an incentive problem. The only way to fix this incentive problem is to spinoff intel's manufacturing business. Yes it will take time to build out the customer service components necessary to work with third parties not to mention the huge library of ip building blocks that make working with a company like tsmc relatively easy but a standalone manufacturing business. We'll have the most powerful incentive possible to make this transformation happen the need to survive. This opens the door for the us to start pumping money into the sector right now. It makes no sense the us to subsidize intel. The company doesn't actually build what the us needs and the company clearly has culture and management issues. That won't be fixed with money for nothing. That is why a federal subsidy program should operate as a purchase guarantee. The us will buy a amount of us produced five nanometer processors for be price see amount of us produced three nanometer processors for depress e amount of us produced two nanometer processors for f- price etc. This will not only give the new intel manufacturing spinoff something to strive for but also incentivize other companies to invest. Perhaps global foundries will get back in the game or tsmc will build more fabs in the us and a world of nearly free capital. Perhaps there will finally be a startup willing to take the leap and quote. I would also point you to a tweet thread involving john masters and others. Which is the final link in the show notes today. That includes this summation at cynical security quote as i've been saying over and over again. Intel suffers from the which has been piling up over several failed processors and causes in effect internal panic towards any decision which deviates from x86 which is the only processor. whichever made them money end quote. Nothing really for you today. So i'll just talk to you tomorrow.

andriessen horowitz andriessen Waymo Netflix brian mccullough jack mob google intel tech magazine tech public relations agency andriessen horwitz connie chan ben thompson Andriessen horowitz Gabe rivera president trump Anthony lansky levski uber
Is David Dobrik the future of the internet?

Business Casual

31:57 min | 1 year ago

Is David Dobrik the future of the internet?

"Business casual is brought to you by just works just works this year to support the small business superheroes working hard to protect their companies and take care of their teams with simple software expert support for payroll benefits, compliance and hr just works take some of the guesswork out of running a business in good times and in bad. They're here to help you do it all with seamless tools for managing remote teams and round the clock customer support for you and your team. During these challenging times. We're in this together. Learn more at just works dot com slash business casual. Hey everybody and welcome to business casual the podcast from morning brew answering your biggest questions and business I'm your host and brew? Business Editor Kinsey grants and now let's get into it. When I was younger, maybe thirteen or so my parents used to let my friends go to the mall. We'd get dropped off. Motorola razors in hand under the pretense of showing up early before a movie, but that's not really what we were there for. We were there for the people watching at the mall before the movie began. That was where you could see cool older teenagers and more importantly what they were. Were wearing and buying granted, it was mostly Abercrombie Polos and Denim miniskirts, but still you get the picture, and you also get the that would never happen now today we find inspiration for what to buy and what to wear and what to want online increasingly that inspiration comes care of social media influencers who've made careers out of creating an original brand and convincing the masses to recreate that original brand for themselves. When we talked about social commerce in the last episode with injuries and Horowitz Connie Chan was a huge takeaway. The Future of Consumer Tech and commerce lies predominantly in influencers and the brands at work with them. Social Commerce is probably the future and influencers are greasing the wheels for that future. It's a space that's growing at an impressive clip and for some context, and because we love the numbers here. The influence marketing industry is on track to be worth up to fifteen. Fifteen billion dollars by twenty twenty two from just eight billion dollars last year now I'm not much for bedding, but I would bet that influencers aren't going anywhere so to better understand this new future that's largely social commerce based I'm bringing in one of the OJ of influence marketing to explain the intersection of consumer tech and social commerce and influencers Ian Borthwick more affectionately known online as the in from seek in welcome to business casual. What an INTRO EXCITED TO BE HERE! We're excited to have you what you're in from Seatgeek is not your official title right like what's your official title at the company I am the senior director of influence marketing which is like a tidal. That even when applied for the job and seek didn't exist because influence or marketing like wasn't this buzzword that it is now so like the fact that that title is even existing now kind of shows how far we've come just in four years. Yeah, it's definitely buzzword indefinitely a word. We're going to use a time in this conversation so we talked in a previous episode with another Ian about if we'd played a drinking game listening to one of these episodes. What would be the word you'd have to drink? I'm. GonNa say it's probably going to be influence a marketing. Anybody out. There is feeling excited. Maybe it's a little wind down podcast session but yeah your. Your background is really interesting like you said this was something that was fairly new when you came onto the scene at. you are one of you know. A lot of the pioneer is a word often used, but you were kind of described as pioneering influence marketing at the company, but you also rose to internet fame on your own rate as part of David, does. Inner Circle Can you explain a little bit more? What your relationship is with David It's kind of hard to understand. I'm I'm new to the David like Internet community, so explain to me how you became part of this policy and what your role is now. Trying to explain David is is interesting. I think like I start with just so he is a youtuber. so he films a four minute long video on youtube that now gets anywhere from four and twenty seconds of course that anyone gets framer from. Ten, million to fifteen million views per video, so we're talking top three youtube creators right now and. I got involved with his posse back in two thousand sixteen. Because David wanted to surprise his best friend with tickets to the two thousand sixteen world series with Cups, and we've been trying to work with them for like. Three years and he never ever returned my calls my texts at his agent. And then one day I get this thing David wants to work with you. House like. This is my moment. This is my great white buffalo and. He wants to world series. I'm like great. I send him over the talking points of what we wanted to do with them. And he said No. I'm not going to do it. I'M NOT GONNA. Read those talking points. And this is a big moment for me, but also scary moment 'cause I was like you have to keep your neck so I panicked, but like I'm on the phone with David and his agent show I'm like. ACT COOL YOU CAn't lose this deal, but also were spending. Ten thousand dollars plus on tickets to like this has to worker. Maybe I'm looking for a new job. And so David Goes I. WANNA. Make the ad about like. Less about the product so stopped I. WanNa talk about how great your product does sure it's great. My audience really isn't going to care too much about that. What they're gonNA care about is. Me Surprising my best friend with tickets, and you guys being the brand to help make that experience part. And so that was like a big. Turning pointed safer for enforcer efforts in that. We were now really gonNA. Lead into the Creator and lean into our product. I think this is a mistake. A lot of brands make as they lean too far into the product and so David Linden did the ad read. It ended up killing it and we ended up doing redone. About thirty thirty videos together are two hundred and fifty million views and. Now. We're at the point when he wants to do integration seek. He will call me sometimes for the WLAC. So that's where my quote unquote Internet famous so like he will call me right there beside comes up. Now calling EMC Gig, yes, and so the big moment was when. He called us to because he wanted to buy his dream car. And like David is a brilliant in that. He understands that if he brings his audience into this like negotiation with a brand like that is something you never see, and it makes you kind of like a character in part of the family, so he calls me and pitches me. Live, not live but I know I'm being recorded. On the block, and so those kind of calls have. Turned me into this kind of like weird character. Like in the Vlade were support with David does. Yeah, they're really funny to. At but I think that part of what makes David so popular with what? Seven point five billion views over seventeen million subscribers on youtube. Those are astounding numbers. I think part of what makes him so popular as he is really transparent. He knows his audience well. This is basically just like a day in the life of someone who's got a lot of money and is like having fun with his friends, which is awesome and like that's the dream for so many of us. You touched on some of the downfalls of house other maybe more traditional. We'll call them. More. Traditional brands work with influencers I. WanNa start broad before we go into some of those specifics. Why is it? Do you think that influence? Our marketing works like? It to me like pitched to your boss when you first tried to get. David to to work with SEATGEEK. Pitch was not nearly as concise as I'm GONNA. Try to make this Ad Say what? For Marketer. You have to go to where the consumers are right and right now. The consumers are consuming podcasts consuming youtube. They're consuming instagram so to actually like. Get attention I'm talking about real attention where like the listeners, actually listening isn't actually engaged. You have to go to these creator first platforms because. If you look at TV, advertising, instagram or Google ads. People bombarded by ads every single day Irish. I'm stat that people here like see six thousand and ten thousand ads a day and sort of like break through the clutter, and that's an insane number yet. That's that's truly an and the reason. It's so Downey's because you're like blind to them now, right? Like you don't see ads. They like kind of like a gloss over them, and so to break through the clutter you have to I, go to where the attention is, and I think the attention right now is with these digital craters or the second thing is. What's different about influencers than like even celebrities before them is, influencers are building their audience directly. So before you know, you had to go through a TV studio, or maybe a newspaper or some sort of publication, but now David Dobric is building this niche. Community into a massive one, and he has this incredible direct connection with his audience so. Why influx of marketing works is not just the attention, but you're tapping into this like incredible authenticity. Between the audience and the Creator and that kind of superchargers your marketing. So, is David Delbrueck the future of marketing, because that a fair assumption to make. I think it's a fair assumption to make that. Large digital creators. Have the ability to reach audiences unlike any other medium right now and I think. A branch who understand this have an incredible unfair advantage over the branch who are still kind of viewing marketing from A. Google. Book Ads, TV, think! Some mistake. And curious how you stay up to date on this stuff like I am twenty five I. Don't understand some of the things that are going on Tiktok like the Charlie little huddle drama. That's been going on this week. Seem superintendents, but like I need someone to translate it to me so I'm curious how you stay up-to-date. How do you know what the big trends are right now? I'm thirty, so if you feel like you're struggling I often struggle I think. How I'd do it is. Who Will I fall for? That drama had to get like I. had go and read it and read like playing her as I google explainer. Can someone please just tell me going on I? Think for me. I'm waiting for a little bit. The dust on Tiktok to settle wear like. I think there's an explosion right now where there's a land grab of so much stuff going on Tiktok and I think you're gonNA. See some really big creators come out of this. And be mainstream celebrities, but I'm trying not to get too caught up with like. The noise of every single tiktok creator, and trying to make sure like I'm on the next Dan. Stranded I'm what I'm really trying to find is like. Take like Addison Ray as ray has I, haven't worked with her I love to work with her, but she's built a tick tock, but she's moved at tiktok audience to Youtube. And our audience followed her there, and that to me is like okay. This person has influenced. This person can port their audience from one place to another, and that's a great indicator as a marketer. I need to pay attention to what she is doing. And I WANNA talk more about the platform in the importance at the platform itself plays in in successful influence in marketing campaigns but quickly before we do that, so the fat Jewish an instagram celebrity came on business casual a couple of months ago, and he communicated that his his thoughts on the future of influence or marketing is that the bubble's GonNa pop were his words. Words exactly that we have so many people trying to become influencers, and we are so used to seeing like use my code Hashtag Spun Hashtag add that it just doesn't mean anything to US anymore. Some curious if you if you think that that is a possibility, do you see a future in which this bubble does pop, and what does that mean for influence marketing on the whole? So. I would say I agree in the that. Influence our marketing. If you're viewing it just as think what he is describing, is this. Commodity commoditisation of influence or marketing, where it's like brands want the control of of an instagram ad. They do, but with the authenticity of influence marketing. and. That just doesn't work you're you're undercutting the whole point once you send influencers these scripts? Terrible captions that are obviously written by like someone like me. And just. Don't make sense in this like Awkward Product Placement. As a banner at your bind display advertising that I totally agree is is a bubble, because it's not really being tracked properly, but I. do think particularly long form content podcasts youtube places where like deep community relationships are built aren't going away so sure there are some talk. influencers are some stuff on instagram. There's even stuff on Youtube and podcast, but the meaningful creators are going to are going to be meaningful after this bubble POPs. Yeah, that's an interesting point and and I think it's worth reiterating that at least in the case of David. and Ian from seek have become characters. It's not like he's gets a list of of points like you're saying I, think thinking of them as banner ads is really really interesting and something that we should. We should think about a little more when we go through instagram. Only watch videos on YouTube. And we've we've laid a pretty great groundwork here for understanding now. How David came to be David, how influence or marketing is important and You know how he ends up giving away cars like they're going up style. So after this break, we're GONNA. Take a quick break tear from our sponsor. And then when we come back, we'll talk a little bit more about this idea of the platform, and how the platform matters like you brought up before. Patience is a virtue. 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And now back to the conversation with IAN from seatgeek. So in a lot of this conversation that we've been having in terms of you know changing trends in consumer, technology centers around platforms. David is a youtube blogger, but he also has a ton of followers on Tiktok I. Think I read, that's the only other social media platform has more followers. than he does on Youtube, which is pretty astounding that he can make that audience move and you. You mentioned Addison Ray as well. She has migrated her audience away from just tiktok. Why does the platform matter at or does it at all? I always focus more on the talent counts going breakthroughs for like David. It. We sponsor his podcast his. Youtube Channel His instagram. We did to experience events with them last year. Where like Fan pop ups? And then with fan joy, and then we. Would have sponsored as Tiktok of Covid didn't hit, so I think like. When you have a super talented person like that, it's really important to. Use them across all different mediums. Your messaging is going to change whereas I think if you fear brands spending on instagram and Tiktok think you're going to be less focused on conversions. It's very hard to like tell A. A brand story in a tick, tock video or Instagram ad, and you're going to be looking for brand exposure for impressions for getting your brand out there in front of more people. If you're spending on youtube and PODCASTS, you're more focused on tapping into that influencers community and driving conversion so. Basically top of the funnel. INSTAGRAM TIKTOK more middle. The funnel is Youtube and podcasts. Okay I, just have to wonder though would David David Without Youtube does it matter where these influencers choose to start out? People may disagree with me, but I'm a big believer. In long form content has to be the lynchpin of like. Building strong community so. I think it's very hard to build a true community on instagram and Tiktok alone. You have to build that community. People have to want to hear what you have to say. They want to really experience your life. And you don't get that on those two other channels, so I'm a I. think that's why you see. Addison Ray and Charlie and these big tiktok stars. moved to Youtube because youtube is a really chance to build that like incredibly strong community and Tick Tock more of a way to get new fans in the door. And I just have to think from marketing perspective also the more time they're spending on a video, even if it's just four minutes instead of one minute the more time they have to interact with your brand that sponsoring content. Yeah I. Mean You'RE GONNA see? TIKTOK prices. Kind of all over. The place was not released, said benchmark, but you. Prices are typically higher than what you're paying for took okay. Speaking of of Tiktok the conversation around TIKTOK. Getting band has really heated up in the last couple of days before we're recording this. I read earlier that the most likely scenario if TIKTOK were to get banned in the United States is that these people would all move to Youtube. Do you think that that's a natural migration for all of these talks Obviously it can work Charlie. It can work for Addison to do the work for everybody. No, I don't think. I don't think a I think. It's a very different much like you see. Athletes are actors have trouble jumping into podcast seen a lot of them, do it, and and not be able to really two different skill set, and it's very hard to do so i. think you'd probably see them? Try to stay alive on an in focus on instagram. And then eventually and try to do too, but I think very few of them. Kind of like by very few craters at Vine Kodeco, Logan Paulsen. Other big craters left Vine and David were able to build that youtube audience, but a lot of them just couldn't. R I P. Vine said at once. We'll say it again. okay, so what about the whole facebook? Ad Boycott. That's going on right now to this is also a huge story. These last couple of weeks these brands don't feel comfortable. Being on facebook at facebook is not going to monitor speech in a way that they deem appropriate or or safe for the users. If facebook were to get quote, unquote effectively canceled. What would that mean for our instagram influencers? You think that there would ever be a time where these influencers would say the same thing as like Patagonia Rei and all these other big brands that are boycotting snuck right now. Or. Is it just too lucrative? I think it's tougher because. That's literally their platform. Like Patagonia has multiple ways to reach their audience outside of Instagram if you're an instagram influencer. In a tough spot. Because if you leave, you're leaving your livelihood. And that's just A. that's tough place for crater. Yeah, it's so interesting to think about the fact that like their life is their livelihood on Obama expense but. That just being yourself on the Internet can be so. Lucrative for so many people it's it's hard to wrap your head around. Sometimes like thinking about the scale that some these people's influence has like David scale is enormous. It's almost impossible to understand how many people are watching these four men and twenty second videos at any given moment all right, so we're going to take a short break to hear from our partner and when we come back, we're going to talk a little bit more about the commerce site of all of this the actual selling of things. Today we're talking wireless your ads and as something of an audio expert I feel singularly qualified to be singing. The praises of Rais Khan's wireless ear buds to all of you. Not only are these babies away less clunky than my old headphones. They're also incredibly easy to set up in about three seconds. I was jamming out to my no judgment. Christmas-in-july playlist sound good while here this like everything. 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It sounds like there's nothing more native for a lot of these social platforms than influence marketing in in the world of social commerce. It just makes a Lotta sense that. Brands would try to actually sell things on these platforms where influencers are saying. Watch me unblocks. Watch me give this car to someone I mean. At least it feels that way. So what are your thoughts on social commerce in general in how influencers can play into that that new arena of selling things? Your thank you. You touched on the intro. If I'm facebook, I see how much the influence of marketing industry is worth many billions of dollars, and a lot of it is happening on my platform I think these platforms are starting to wake up and say. Had we get a piece of this puzzle and? Particularly facebook is doing where. If you look at what facebook, ECOMMERCE. They have the opportunity where they can be the discovery of new products, so Amazon is kind of like I need new socks check. I need that electric tea kettle check. But where people get inspiration for what they WANNA. Buy is often on Instagram, so you're scrolling through your feed. Maybe you see a creator and influence or you follow and you say I really liked that. T shirt. Shoe and you're going to be able to double. Click on that t shirt. And buy it without ever leaving the. I think that's going to be incredibly powerful position for facebook to be in. It's going GONNA give. Retailers I think a lot of new sales, but they're gonNA lose control and for brands. It's a it's an opportunity to really natively integrate without influence or concept. What do you mean by lose control? So, you might know this better than me, but I'm GONNA. Try to do my best. There's the media landscape police. The Way I've heard is. In Sierra facebook and Google. At first were celebrated driving so much traffic to these media publications, which was great, it was funnels, and suddenly everyone started optimizing their content for Google and facebook because they want to get more eyeballs to sell more ads, the problem was is they ceded control. To facebook and Google and facebook and Google ultimately ended up undercutting their ad sales so now facebook is selling ads, Google selling ads and these media publications couldn't sell adds to the degree that you still. My fear for where this is going from a facebook site has all these brands are giving up control the getting all these cliques. They're gonNA. Get a lot more conversions, but you're not driving people back to your website right now. Your new website is your instagram shop. and. I imagine a world where one they're going to take a percentage on the sales with to. If my competitor brands, so let's say it's all data going to go back to their ad manager, so it's like they're gonNA. Say Hey, you wanNA target this person. Who bought your competitors? Who bought who likes to buy high-priced handbags and suddenly if I'm like? I don't know. I'm trying to think of high-priced handbag right now like burberry, which the terrible example, but if I'm burberry suddenly like my. My data is being given to my competitors essentially, so they can do better. Ad Sales I just. It's a slippery slope when you get in bed I think with with facebook where you're gonNA, get a lot of clicks conversions, but you're seeing a ton of control. That makes a lot of ends and I also imagine that facebook end other big tech platforms as well would market this to brands as owning the experience of purchasing something from brand. You know going from advertising whether it's an influence or not actually making the purchase you get to have a little control over all of that, but that just doesn't seem realistically. Control is to your point the platform. It's GonNa be facebook, which. We, all know might be a bit of a problem. So we got them done talks a lot about David and also influence marketing in general and consumer tech, but now I wanna put you on the spot a little bit more, so we're going to do the business casual wheel, but I'm going to switch it up a little bit this time around because I think you have some unique perspectives that I would like to draw on here, so we have two options. You're going to both of them. Hopefully you'll agree but there are some rapid fire questions and a challenge. You can choose which one you WANNA. Do first though rapid fire questions. What platform would you want to have one million followers on into? Okay, easiest and hardest influencers to work with. David enable. Again. That's a fair when you open instagram. What is the first ad that you see? A weighted blankets weighted blankets. You've been searching him not. By My, Can your FBI agent is just feeding them information? Yeah, why do podcast ads suck so much of the time because people send terrible scripts and hosts have become used to reading these terrible scripts and continue to do it and the best brands don't do that. Okay and finally if David calls you right now, would you pick up the phone hours? Would you David Right now? We could try, can we? Will pick up. Let's do it all right. How do I? Let's see is definitely not a way. But time is on the west coast. I don't think he's GonNa. Pick up! It's not gonNA like A. Business Casual I. Calling the most eight mess youtuber on the Air I'm betting. He isn't even he's still like three hours away from waking up. Yeah, WE'RE GONNA STRIKE HIM WE. Struck up While it was worth it worth a shot if he asked you why you called. You have to say that I need you. And then tell them to listen to business casual Okay, so we we got through the rapid fire safely now so the challenge, so I know that there was something of a debacle with a now removed David blog in which you created your own sieg. Add so we're going to give you a redemption. Chance here. If you had to do a Sieg ad, an ad, read right now. I always mess this up. He stretch and getting ready. What's up, guys in from seekonk year. Seek reached out to me. They want to sponsor this part of the business casual podcast. If you haven't heard a seek the this amazing amazing APP that's worked with over a thousand creators and have driven have garnered more than two point five billion views. And now they're supporting business casual. In order to use seek use my code boss Wick. B O, s S. W I C K for twenty dollars off your first order. That's twenty dollars off your first order with code boss Wick. Come on, be smart. You seek. Bat was pretty damn good. I was the best. I've ever done well something less than in the water. That was fantastic to use your code. Maybe they'll buy some more Harry styles, tickets or something. Styles tickets hopefully. The NFL tickets are good or coming back, I mean. Yeah, we'll hopefully all right. We'll Ian thank you so much for coming on business casual for playing along with these games and for all of this great. I really enjoyed this conversation and thanks for having me. Everybody before we get back to this episode of business casual. I want to tell you about another podcast. I think you'll love. It's called the passion economy, and on the show host Adam Davidson speaks to people who have built really cool things by channeling their unique passions and interests into successful businesses. You'll hear from a top tier chef who took a giant risk, so he could make the perfect ice cream a. A former drug dealer who used his time in prison to develop a business idea so unique? No one will ever be able to compete with him and an author who found the perfect story and turned it into a thriving whisky brand, and all of these people have something to teach us and show just how exciting this passion economy can be, so check out the passion economy today wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of business casual in that conversation with IAN FROM SEATGEEK? We talked at length about what's working and what's not working in marketing. If you want more great marketing insights subscribed to morning, Brews Marketing Newsletter Marketing Grill at Morning Brew Dot Com Slash Marketing for all of the marketing news. You need every Monday Wednesday and Friday I'll see you time.

David David instagram youtube facebook Addison Ray Seatgeek Ian Borthwick David It Google Consumer Tech Tiktok Tiktok US David Linden Horowitz Connie Chan Motorola David Toms tiktok Business Editor