20 Episode results for "Confederate Army"

Robert Smalls

Citation Needed

43:33 min | 2 years ago

Robert Smalls

"Uh-huh. It's not though it's like a whole new series, but. But are they still in space though? Yeah, yeah. They're still space basically the same thing. Right. But how boring would it be if they called it planet track. We went way. Oh, hey, guys home, I. No, no, yeah. Hi, Noah. Yes. Happening just testing the Taki anything and the sliding lever box before we before we. David on the splat chippy do worker to order. Yeah. What do you call that process? You think. Read toward it? Nope. So close, I what the fuck are you doing in the seat and why are you wearing Noah's tiny little shirt? You look like a sausage in that thing. Okay. You guys saw the my disguise, but it's because of today's topic. Robert Smalls the escaped slave that pretended to be a ship captain and the civil war. Okay. Well, that explains it and that explains the black face to. Okay, that's crazy. This is not black face. It is camouflage e. I don't know if you guys seen it camouflage. He really then why is it only black and only on your face? I got distracted before I could put the green. So why I got an foul question. Why does Noah quack? Right? Why does he quick. Belo and welcome to citation needed. The podcast we choose the subject, read a single article about Wikipedia and pretend we're experts because this is the internet and that's how it works. Now, I'm CeCe and I'll be guiding us through this haunted embassy of horrors, but I'm not the only one here. Also joining me is the guy who broke under enhanced interrogation and the guy who accidentally broken alliance home. Okay. Honestly, that's on me for starting that fight with fifteen guys by cutting off my own fingers. I thought it'd be a strongly. I'm not gonna lie. There is a good reason that no one will let me pet the rabbits anymore, but say like, I was surprised that ally broke after Hello, very nice to meet. Jet. Why were you surprised shouted, heats name right away. Also joining us the guy who clearly shaves the bone saw and our water bedding, expert heath, and Noah. I'm basically trying to cut copper wire out of melanoma. It's. Fucking eugenics and you know, every. I have genetics and I used to think of waking up wedged between a wooden frame and a tenuous two hundred and thirty five gallon water balloon as as the bed, giving you a big hug. Great. Stick a moment here to thank our wonderful, generous, patrons, their contributions, make sure the show is possible. So thanks pay. Thanks patriot like to learn how to join their ranks, be sure to stick around to the end of the show with that out of the way. Tell us heath what person place thing concept, phenomenon or event will we be talking about today today we'll be talking about the adventures of Robert small. Robbie, Smalls ooh, Keith. Did Noah ask you to add the adventures of? So we wouldn't suspect he picked a boring topic. Again, I don't get the money if I say yes. So I feel like saying that should still count. Different concepts. I didn't just say. And you're the kind of cheapskate that would stiff his friend out of money on technicality. I mean, I mean, I mean you read something and are you ready to talk about it? That's basically what each day. Okay. For once you. It's not fair for me to have to pay for a third of the when I take the least amount of space. Euclid. Yes, I am though I am. All right. So Noah who was Robert Smalls he was an escaped slave in the civil war that avoided the confederate army by stealing one of their boats and go Lottie Dottie past five federal checkpoints. Love this. Actually. This sounds really good to the leg thing. I keep the Barlow see. So thanks for all right. No, where does this story start us with? Schley voter raping him into existence back in eighteen thirty eight. I'm out. Better. It does get beer. All right. So now that is just the best guess that history has to offer on his paternal lineage. We don't know for sure, but his mother was Lydia polite who's in slave by one Henry Mckee, Robert was born in April of eighteen thirty nine and a cabin behind the Mckee house on five eleven print street in Beaufort, South Carolina. Already. I'm glad you included the fucking address. It happened like on the four hundred block, I'd be so confused later. The upscale end of prince street, Tom gets it matters. So Mckee never claimed Robert is a son or anything, but he did favor him over the other slaves. Oh, what is that even mean? Like he beat them with the good website. So this is just for me and the missus. Lydia uppity. Yeah, no, yeah, exactly. No, but he was still he was still a slave. I'm not trying to give Henry a father of the year award here or anything, but Henry treated him so good at concerned, his mother, she, she apparently feared that growing up favored. He wouldn't understand the plight of the average slave says she insisted that he do field work and witness whippings when people did get with kind of like that one octave and black guy in the Chicago police department. His name is Michael wood, JR. There when he is not getting married again. So please. John agree with MRs polite here. You got to toughen up the younger generation. That's why the baby boomer's made us watch as they destroyed the economy and democracy and the piano. Yeah, planet. So fun or so when Robert was twelve years old at the urge of his mother, Mckee hired Robert out to a local hotel where you earn a dollar a week and Mckee earned the rest of the pins that they were paying him. Okay. Yeah. Then all Robert had to do is recruit some more slave friends. And soon those would recruit more. He'd be on the path to financial independence. Slavery is like Amway as what we're saying, basically. The other way around at home. All right. So by his mid teens, employment drifted seaward and he got work as a longshoreman a sailmaker and a rig. That's their word. No, you can't. I knew at a glance, you guys wouldn't think I had written regular. Let me guess though. While I was doing that job, you went by the name rigi small. Racist Chiltern sit still shifted, but it's a racist shit tits please. Sensor. So I'm skipping over a lot of the. He was a slave in it sucked because that's an evil shit right there in his biography. But I should know that even though the Wiki article doesn't really emphasize it, I'm sure there was a lot of that she would feel about you skipping it. Not in the Wiki article. I didn't wanna like I didn't want to betray the goal concept of the show up, but in the anodyne bullet points that it offers. The next thing we have is him getting married at the age of seventeen to Hannah Jones and enslaved hotel mate. All hotel maids of slaves, no slaves to do not disturb sign and the whims of their customers. Say like there's a whole porn hub channel dedicated to this exact scenario. So. And I'm sure he has an upcoming essay. Anti bell made some. I looked at. So Hannah was five years older than Robert already had two children when they marry. But Robert soon added a third. His plan was to save up enough money to buy his children's Fritos. I would also use the money for my children's freedom. I would use that. Twenty said anyway. Now at the time that would cost him eight hundred dollars which is over twenty granted as money news. Today's money. Degree kid. Working the field too, so hard. What I couldn't hear you from leaving. Think about it when I'm free of view. Yeah, of me. Nineteen years, a slave. Emancipation day. Can't come soon enough right. Or to say, regardless of his real reason, eight hundred was more than he was going to be able to save up as a rented slave, but in eighteen sixty one current events would make the price hell of a lot steeper. Yeah, they're terrible rates on indentured servants. Just terrible. You gotta Consol. Literally crushing. The last time, a black person got alone in this country. So. So, yeah. Okay. So three years after he got married, the civil war breaks out and by autumn of that year Smalls was assigned to steer a lightly armed confederate transport called the planter short of naming these boats, a planter why we need this to go somewhere named after the thing that doesn't go anywhere. Yeah, but even more importantly, these loser ass losers that were the confederate military on nothing at all stupid, about putting a slave at the helm of their phone in a war about keeping his children, slave to the Infinity. All right. I'm gonna give you this gun, but you know, don't shoot me. Not to shoot me. Okay. I feel like it seriously don't shoot and you stab me right away with the band that, okay, that. Did not specify the rules though, so I'm not mad. I'm gonna give you that. I'm disappointed, but I'm not mad. The black guy in the helmet had to be super hard steering the boat from the back of this ship. That's right. You might think so. See so, but weirdly, it's three fifty's. Yes, I think you're fractions. I feel I feel better and better about choosing this topic. Okay. The CSS planter, as I said, was a transport vessel. Its duties were to deliver dispatches troops and supplies to troops stationed around Charleston harbor. And eventually all down the confederate coast, though, surveyed waterways and laid the occasional seeming pretty sure it's pronounced semen, Noah. Well, the way you do it, yes, it is. Now the whole time he's doing this job Smalls plays it cools and manages not to say, I can't believe these dumb fucking white people. Let me steer the goddamn boat in his. Just singing like pro slavery, spiritual. Stay in modeling. Admittedly, he does have a mask avoid. What the whole l. God dot com. Slash citation, patron dot clown. A separate website for our own stuff. I don't wanna get into just as well administration. He's joke is actually pretty close because he plays content even when he can see freedom as close as the union blockade, which is often visible just at the horizon, but all the while he's plotting his escape that really the toughest part was getting a rock hill Welsh poster, big enough to sail a ship. So it would appear that the confederate navy was as bad at navy ING as their army wasn't arming because by their Math Made perfect sense to send a lightly armed ship out in their waterways with eight slaves and three white dude's watching over them. That math is. Yeah, that's that's confederate messo Robert Smalls drew deal drove up some blueprints or some insert circulating his escape plans to the other slaves on the ship, except and I love that the Wikki points this out one slave that Smalls didn't trust because there's always that one. Fucking house, rigors. I wanna know that there are literally no jokes on this joke. Never just hands that. Are you. rigor sitting there like a rowboat in the. Anyway, Paul Ryan calls John Lewis. Schrager and. I like our anyway. Doesn't think we appreciate it. House figure f. He's in the house. John Lewis. John. Freedom-fighter anyway. So on may twelve eighteen sixty two. The planners set out for a small island about ten miles southwest of Charleston to pick up four large guns and two hundred pounds of ammunition from afford those being dismantled. And at this point Smalls had to be going, okay, I'm gonna laugh out loud if they get any stupid or so. He said his plans in motion also Baugh those blindfolds the captain ordered all the white people to wear, please. And now we're gonna do some trust fall. And now some trust, stab, don't stab us or else we won't try. Blindfolds wits. Anyone else feel like really just fought a war for BCSM. Yes. So, okay. So when Smalls learns about this mission, he sends words back to his family and the families of the other slaves aboard the ship, except presumably that one guy from and they all snuck away that day hid themselves aboard, a steamer docked in the North Atlantic Warf which meant that practically speaking, it was now or never write. Small family had already like run off, and that was going to raise alarm pretty quickly such that even the dumb asses running the confederacy would probably realize they shouldn't trust him with boats Fulla large guns and ammunition. They're measuring in the hundreds of. No, no, they sound pretty fucking stupid Disley it sounds like Smalls giving like, oh, what my family's gone. All right. I'm going to need. Let's see. I'm gonna need an armada and all your gun powder. I got this. No, no fifteen minutes. Are. Is anybody else here wondering about this steamer that now has seven families of black slave just squirrelled away somewhere on it, but nobody else notice like I'm starting to think maybe we needed an underwater railroad. All right. So by now you're probably thinking, how are they going to overpower their crew? Right. Are they gonna? Are they gonna laced Rome with sleeping powder? Or are they going to Muslim over the side of the deep ocean? Are they gonna say, what's that over there and then punch him when they look away like the fucking idiot losers are. No, it's dumber than that. Okay. Because apparently the three white officers were in the habit of going ashore at night. One. What. The slaves and only the slaves on. Okay. Yeah, Roberts plan was just wait for them to leave, and then just, you know, go, it was harder, sneak out, drink what I was a team. Coincidentally was also during the civil war. The violin comically plank in the background. The white officer guys are leaving and Smalls just like, can't hold it together. We. Boston. Inside joke. All right. So the night of the twelve passes into the early morning of the thirteenth in at three AM Smalls and seven of his eight slave crewmen made their escape. Yes, they left that one guy in South Carolina. Awesome. All right. So. So mad like Bill really Bill. Bell. Yes. So apparently Smalls just put on the captain's uniform, which the captain apparently just left in there in case anybody needed it captain crunch. We'll to make the disguise easier. The planters captain who supported the comic book, bad guy named for transport ship. Captain relay was. Yeah, right. But it were the straw hat that obscured his feature so that the disguise would be easier. Good. The also dress sometimes in black face and call himself Errol Tubman. What was on at this point. All right. It's a small just put on his uniform and his dumb ass redneck hat and walked around the deck of the ship doing his best white guy walks. That was the plan that is a centrally how Barack Obama won the president. No, I should stress you're by the way that he's not just sailing straight from this port into friendly waters. Here the route between him and safety was guarded by five confederate checkpoints and a couple of minefields. But since he knew all the signals he was supposed to give it each checkpoint. And since as ship's pilot obviously has to know where all the minds are. He manages to slip through all the obstacles without incident fucking hope. So. Or he should going back to slave captain school already got the loans last. Along the way. Of course he stops to pick up his family along with the loved ones of his fellow conspirators. Okay, that it Midland is awesome, but that sounds like the end of the story and we're just getting Napper poa nothing after he slips past the last confederate checkpoint. He is still heading directly at a union naval blockade in a confederate ship in the middle of the night, and let's be real here. The north was only racially progressive compared to the south. This is still a boat full of lack of Robert Smalls didn't charge his ship towards the union. The sale. Like this show this get pulled over like fucking seven times for a broken tail light, right. She has don't even have that's getting the car. Clark's don't even exist plan. So. Let's go to the opera nothing. Then what do you say guys? Thank guarantee. I guarantee. Great. And. Okay. Man at midnight crew gets off the ship, and that's when. Oh, hey, that one guy. Oh, great. Is being a slave, right? Hope it don't lose my job right. Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah. I know you the first guy to use that joke ever, but that's somehow or old maybe don't to that. No, no. Just just the sentence I said don't say not not. Right, right. Say not. Anyway. What are you guys plan and over here? Nothing. We're working on all guys planning a surprise for birthday. Oh. Tomorrow your birthday, like you know, lying. Yeah, I know this character is black, but I'm just going to censor that just definitely. That just planning my birthday. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We're planning your birthdays tomorrow. Don't don't interrupt our birthday plans. Okay. That's. But I'm going to say is we'd better be going my favorite restaurant. Benny honner. Fishbowl full boos, booze at sound straight man. Okay. See you later. Yeah, I'm probably out to to probably for the best. Maybe just bleep the whole thing. All right. Well, we last left our heroes. They were sailing towards a naval blockade and hoping they could charade their way out of this before they got into cannon range. I guess. I don't know what though that's pretty much it. So right. Okay. Now the problem with this charades plant is that they time their scape in the predawn hours, and even Robert Smalls count on the confederate army to be less dumb than they were. So he didn't expect to get through all the checkpoints so quickly, all my God. So the worst part of his plan so far is that it's going to well. This not rising again. The south can't even get a chubby again. They were literally just out of gun range with confederates, realized their mistaken sounded the alarm. So it's not only they could just hang out in open water between the confederate and the union blockade, right? So they had to approach the union blockade just before the sun comes up. Oh, what's the flag code for? You're not gonna believe this, but hear me out. They start back in the ship up all slow, everyone's hands on the tiller very. All right. So according to witness accounts from the ship that intercepts them the US Anward. No. Okay. For real, who's naming these shifts? Who is that? We that. Okay. Like that one. All right. So they were already preparing to fire on the planter when for the first time in the lives of everybody on board, most likely something white actually helped. Specifically the white bedsheet that Small's wife Hannah had brought along replace the confederate flag with now. The sun wasn't exactly up by then, but it was just up enough for them to make out the flag of surrender and the south has been going back and forth between white sheets and confederate flags ever since. And still surrendering everage. Giving up their healthcare. Women's rights, and I share a bit of a quote from the Wikki of from an unnamed crewmen aboard. The onward quote, just as number three port gun was being elevated. Someone cried out, he's going for the candidate is back pocket, fire. That he cried out, icy, something that looks like a white flag and true enough. There was something flying on the steamer that would have been white by -application of, but water let it be shitty about it. Time. I was on city as she feared us. We looked in vain for the face of a white man when they discover. So again, like just, you know, you don't have to point that out go. The quote continues when they discover that we would not fire upon them. There was a rush of contraband out on her deck, some dancing, some singing, whistling jumping and others, looking towards fort Sumter and muttering all sorts of maledictions against it and quote. So Smalls his shipmates and their families were free. Okay. The dancing I get, but muttering of complaints is weird timing for both the freed slaves. And this guy's description right in my head. Ford Sumpter. Fuck it. Floors me. Can we get back to a time when soldiers new words like malediction. I'm not even saying those were better times. What I'm saying is our military is stupid. Now she's. What I I you pay for the college. Then they joined the military. He got switch. Punch arts majors in there. All right. So a few minutes later, the two ships docked the onwards captain boarded the planter. And the first thing Smalls did was ask for a US flag display in place of the white one and keep in mind that the nearest confederate pace was probably insight of this event as a great. Fuck you write a much better. Fuck you was the cargo of the ship Smalls had to turn over to the union army, and then he like locks eyes with the previous captain, and he Taus is out at Tiki toki. Look at me in your Spyglass. I am the captain now. Some southerner immediately starts working on a statue to commemorate the event. Got to build another one because the second I one sunk. Okay. So look, four, large guns and a couple of hundred pounds ammunition. Those are useful to have. Those are also useful for the enemy not to have, but the plant or had far more valuable cargo aboard in the form of the captain's code book a map of minds that have been laid in Charleston harbor. And most importantly, all the knowledge of the waterways and military deployments that Smalls was carrying around between his ears. For example, they learn shit like that area. We thought had tens of thousands of troops in it is being defended by a couple thousand men and they're stretched so thin. They just abandoned an important fortification on their flank said the rust belt back then too. And about the same amount of deplorables. Okay. But you just say, was the one racist resentful? Northern guy who is like, I mean, great. They brought us guns and information, but like, what are they really want? You know is a lot. Politics here the one, northern, the one and honestly. Okay. So that story already, it could end there and it would have been worth episode Smalls had his freedom, his family and the US government paid him and his crewmen about the on the planter. That was the equivalent of about thirty six thousand dollars in today's money each. So hardly a fortune but enough to start a life in the north. Plus his story was great propaganda for the union army. So the newspaper already made a hero out of him. Okay. What it be fair. He's sort of the hero making well. Thing, the press popularize. Okay. Yeah, fair fair. But even if they hadn't his bad ass boat a fetus beyond reproach, but he's still wanted to kick some morass. So we elected to enlist in the union navy guys, just like, man, I bet after all these years of literal slavery, you're ready to settle down. Relax. Just not do no. No, I would like to kill the people who in slave, my wife and children, like right now. Oh, that also seems fun. Sure. Like you'd want to take up golf. I mean. Though. Right. Friends, so that's cool. Would I said, all right. Rigors. One of the first things he did as a member of the US navy was serving delegation to DC to persuade the secretary of ward Edwin Stanton to allow black men to fight for the union cause because not allowing that was really fucking stupid. So black people weren't allowed to fight at that point, but they could sign up for political delegations. It was weird line system. Yeah. But now, but shortly thereafter, Stanton created the first and second South Carolina colored regiments, and people them with about five thousand black volunteers which is like eighty three hundred white soldiers. Like how a tough sell. I, we'd like to fight, you know, we've got caught a vested interest in how this thing. All right. So small, go on the pilot and number of union boats in the familiar South Carolina waterways up to it, including the planter once the union refitted it to kick morass also got a reputation for bravery and determination really quick because let's face it. Black dues were more motivated to not be captured by the enemy in that war and and also he was apparently brave is hell. Okay. So now I'm rooting for him to get captured by the south. And then trick them again, just like, oh, perfect. You guys, you caught me. I'm caught now, right? Yeah. Good work. So I'm obviously a fake double agent. Great. And now we've got those me lovers right where we. Okay. So let me get one more giant boat supply. Plan, I'll right, but you pick swear out to steal it again. Yeah, await I cut off your hand picky toes. Swear. You're stupid. So by his Smalls was president seventeen major, naval battles and engagements in the civil war, and was eventually made a captain after particularly hero bene- piloting once the acting captain pushed out and ran and hid in the coal bunker and in between all that, he helps remove a bunch of the mines that he'd laid only months earlier for the confederacy that captain was just playing. He's actually, he just wanted to see some big black guy drivers. All right. So he was discharged at the conclusion of the war, but he continued piloting the plants around humanitarian missions to bring food and supplies to newly freed black families that had lost their homes in the war way, like lost their homes like like their slave homes. I'm not sure how that works, but I'm also not sure that's not how that works. That's how that worked. Yeah. Now after the war, there was some argument about what rank he actually achieved, and they went back and made him technically a second Lieutenant of the first South Carolina volunteers as some kind of weird compromise that satisfied racists, but still let the navy pay 'em like he'd been a captain that whole. It was a weird little negotiation for that like, okay, what about second Lieutenant tidal captains pay. Okay. Okay. Counteroffer. N. word but generals bay. I'm sitting right here. I am. I know I'll take three fifths of rank and five thirds. The pain. All right. So not to be clear and so that the north doesn't come off sounding any better than they deserve. When he later saw a naval pension, he was told the actually had never been commissioned. Now. He eventually did get a captain's pension out of the government, but it took fourteen years or twenty three white years. It took a literal act of congress to make it happen. For what it's worth a few years later, congress went back into cited that the equivalent of thirty six grand a piece was crazy low for that awesome boat. You gave the union AB after his escape. Yeah. So they gave all the survivors another payment. This time, the equivalent of about one hundred forty grand today still right? He go. Rodney King felt bad about that whole thing. So we also got you some golden spinners for your wheelchair. You guys like those right. Okay. That's a direct quote. By the way. Just some guy like just gonna blow the whole thing on forties and hot Cheetos, what's the. So after I loved the navy to have a successful career, the hotel business Philadelphia, then invested heavily in the Charleston area during reconstruction made a bunch of money. But I guess eventually he missed scaring the hell out of southern white people. So we got into politics apparently was a hell of a politician to he served on the local state and national level, and eventually rose all the way to the house of representatives where he represented South Carolina's fifth district for two terms. But because of advancements in racism technology, a black person wouldn't represent that district again until two thousand ten. Oh, okay. All the black people in South Carolina. Please raise your hand. Great. Just keep them up. Just drawn something real quick. Okay, great. That's district hands down. Perfect. Whoever won in two thousand ten coming in and being like, hey, who's the last black guy told my office? And they were like what you laughed ember. Civil war. They actually gave the same physical office. It was in the back of the Bill. Yeah, let's just say it was separately. Robert Smalls died of malaria and diabetes at the age of seventy five because he was too bad ass to die of just one debilitating malady. He was buried in his family's plot and Beaufort, South Carolina, and is Margaret was in grave with a statement he made to the South Carolina legislature in eighteen ninety-five quote. My race needs no special defense for the past history of them in this country proves them to be the equal of any people anywhere. All they need is an equal chance in the battle of life and quote, virtue signaling. You know he, he might have lived even longer white people just invented Wilford Brindley early. No, it is all this others point to him and say that guy beat us. I knew that was gonna get heat. Pawn and early nineties TV reference. Yeah. And I know that I should probably end this on the Spiring quote and all, but there's one little detail of this story that I absolutely love. So I say for less when he moved back to South Carolina, he needed a place to say. So he bought a house in Beaufort at five, eleven print streets. Yes. Apparently the previous owner hadn't been paying taxes to the US government for four years or so. And the government sees the property, the property owner even sued to get the property back. But ultimately the court side, it was Smalls and he ended up raising the family that he'd freed in the house. He was born and slaved in. I'm not saying that he should buckle white woman in every room of that house. He showed a white woman. No. If you had to summarize what you learned in one sense other than that guy should fuck. Well, it be. I've written here, Robert small should the white woman that house exploded that Jews. Are you ready for the quiz? Sure. Why not? All right. I'll go first at some point. The confederate navy was just asking for. So what's right stunned prevent this from happening. Hey, hey, maybe if the ship hadn't been dressed like that. Void sailing dark passages at night. See those three white guys had Madrid off ship. Watch out for black guys. Panama, those Noah. All right. Yeah, I was was way more prepared for racism than sexism this week. Women are going with in the house and Robert Smalls house, they're all going with the deep. So there you go. Black guy. Please proceed, Eli. Oh, don't someone says he's wrong or. He's right. I always go to early and you guys yell? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Right. No. Who were some other African American civil rights? Activists who story has a happy ending. I'm asking, I can't think of literally any. I would like. D. none of the correct? Correct. All right. This story was made into a movie, what was it called? A uncle Tom's cabin boy. Twelve years wave. See birth of a nation and birth. There is spelled with an e. audience. Or d. black boaty. All right. Well, I feel like I'm not going to feel good about myself repeating any of those, but only one of those movies is a crime against humanity even before the pun. So I'm gonna go with a. Right. Absolutely. All right, Noah. In addition to ride the boat, they willingly give you which of the following methods was also successful for escaping. Slavery. Thanks to the American South being run by cartoon rhino. Hey, lady, rabbit mustache and. If you guys can read this turnover, you just got tricked by a black guy turnover. See the above ground railroad. Railroad or d, former slave owner says, what. Oh, okay. This is a tough one. All right. It can't be because lady rabbits don't have mustaches. It can't be because confederate soldiers couldn't read. I think it can't be deep because Southern's talk to slow to make the so and so says what thing works. So I'm gonna go see by process of elimination at is correct though. It's no, no, no, that's not you with. The best thing about actually section is the legitimate. Right, right. So competitive. That's why listeners love it is the competitive one. You one, which means I get to announce who goes next week who wants to go next week. Halla weaned big show. Toss it over to Sarah for last week's Tudor answer and this week's Twitter question. Thanks, you. So last week's assignment was to write a Haikou about David Eick. Our answer comes from navy, Dave on Facebook. With this. I sucked football alien lizards chase me mother fucking Jews. This week's question is what does a better name for the ship that Robert Smalls commandeered remember to re Twitter, Facebook, share this episode with your answer for chance to be next week's winner back to you see? So all right. Well, for ally, he Noah and Tom, I'm c. soil thanking you for hanging out with us today. Who back next week by then, Tom will be an expert on something else between now and then you could Tom and I on our show cognitive dissonance. You can catch knowing he's on their shows, the skeptic crat godawful movies in the scathing atheist. I think that's all the people in projects that we do. So I didn't miss anything or anyone. And if you'd like to keep this show going, you can make per episode the nation at patriotair dot com. Slash citation pod or leave us a five star view everywhere you can. And if you'd like to get in touch with us, check out past episodes, connect with us on social media or check the show notes, be checkout, citation pod dot com. And I guess I would say my third favorite thing to order at Benny HANA is the shrimp. I like the trick where they throw it into their hat. You know, I'm literally okay with you. Being a slave, the slave, Benny Ana and why people. Yup. My grandson will be Konya west.

Robert Smalls South Carolina US Noah Small confederate navy navy confederate army David Eick John Lewis Tom bell Beaufort Hannah Jones Charleston Belo confederacy Amway Chicago
A Campaign of Giants: The Battle for Petersburg

Tales of American History

1:06:00 hr | 1 year ago

A Campaign of Giants: The Battle for Petersburg

"Welcome to the witnessing history. Education foundation podcast educating Americans to understand the history of their country and of other countries. So that they will appreciate the value of America's unique free institutions. Become an American hero. Who participates in our mission by joining us at witnessing history dot org. Download our documentaries and free teacher education materials that conform to grade level education standards at PBS learning dot org. Follow witnessing history on Facebook, Twitter and linked in. Today. Kent Masterson Brown is joined by a Wilson green author of a campaign of giants. The battle for Petersburg volume. One from the crossing of the James to the crater William marvel is an author of many books on the civil war, including Lee's retreat from Petersburg to APPA Matic's. He says I think it is safe to say that a Wilson green knows more about the Petersberg campaign than any other living person. And now let Kent Masterson Brown and a Wilson green take you on a journey to the campaign of Petersburg Virginia. Eighteen sixty four. And now let Kent Masterson Brown. Take you on a journey through American history. Well, we'll welcome. It's good to see you again. It's good to be here. Can thanks for inviting me? Well, you've been introduced as someone who knows more about the Petersberg campaign than any living person of dead. I'm sure much more about Petersburg than I do. Appreciate attack. Well, I'll call Bill marvel after this and all asking exactly what he meant by that. But no, it's really great to see you again and welcome to to our podcast here. You're you've just written the first volume of a campaign for giants of giants on the battle of Petersburg, and your this is a projected three volume work of yours. That's correct. And first of all, let me tell you. And let me tell all our listeners. What a tremendous work. It is and how well it reads. And how engrossing it is. Thank you to to read. And I totally recommend to our our public that they pick up a copy of your book. It's terrific. And these are things that have not been really well written about for well forever. And. And you're putting the whole thing together in a in a massive piece at work and congratulations. Thanks terrific. Absolutely terrific. Let me start by asking you will some of our listeners may know a lot about Petersburg some of made. No, very little give us kind of a synopsis of this campaign short short as you can go. But I mean, a synopsis of it. Well, the Petersburg campaign lasted two hundred ninety two days. So depending on how you judge the length of a campaign of the civil war. You could make the argument it was the longest continuous campaign of the entire war. It was focused around the second largest city in Virginia and the seventh largest city in the confederacy Petersburg, which got its importance in the war as a communications and transportation center. Five railroad. Cbs entered into Petersburg and four of them were integral to the supply of the army of northern Virginia and the capitol at Richmond, and when General Grant and his army of the Potomac along with general Butler and the army of the James in general, Meade course, command of the army of the Potomac ahead intended to focus on Richmond at the beginning of the spring of eighteen sixty four but didn't that bloody overland campaign? They were not able to either destroy the army of northern Virginia or capture the confederate capital Richmond in. So grant made his decision to focus on the transportation and communication center. Twenty three miles south of Richmond. Petersburg and the campaign involved nine separate union offensives couple of confederate offenses initially grant hoped be able to bowl his way into. Petersburg, the first three offensives had some kind of attempt to attack confederate fortifications and break into Petersburg all of those offenses failed. And so the fourth through eighth offensives were designed to cut off one by one moving east to west the transportation arteries leading into Petersburg, and then entertainment. It was not until the final offensive on April. Second eighteen sixty five that grant reverted to frontal assaults that of course, were successful that day and lead in a week the surrender of Lee's army at app Maddox courthouse, basically just wore them down of the confederate army. I mean, think of the days and months in those trenches. Well, it that is that is I think I would agree with you to a large extent. But one. The reasons you mentioned at the top of the show that Petersburg is not as well known many people who studied the civil wars other campaigns. And I think part of the reason is that it is too often portrayed as a static operation of trench warfare in which really nothing much happened except the armies suffered in these unspeakable trenches. There were a couple of exceptions the battle of the crater we've all heard about and then he boiled author seem to jump to the battle of five forks on April first eighteen sixty five and there really wasn't any strategy. There wasn't any operational complexity to this. It was just as boring World War One ish trench campaign. And and my contention is that there was a lot more Roche shoe action at Petersburg that is of interest to people who want to study the operations of civil war. Armies than is generally accepted now. Yeah, I me ask you will in terms of the supply. Why? And I'm thinking here mostly of Lee's army. How was that accomplished? And in if it obviously it was to some degree. But. Tell tell us what you know about that how he is being supplied. It's always been interesting to me. Well, it is. And of course, you're a master at explaining logistics of the civil war extremely important aspect of the military operations one that's often overlooked by by authors Lee, dependent on railroads like also or generals dead. There were three roads that he was interested in one was the railroad leading in from the Shenandoah valley that went to Richmond did not go to Petersburg, the second was another railroad that bypassed Petersburg called the Richmond and danville railroad keenum from south West Virginia. But his most important rail line was the Petersburg railroad that ran from Petersburg, sixty miles south to Weldon North Carolina oftentimes in the literature. People will see it as the Weldon railroad. Real name was the Petersburg railroad, which connec. Acted at Weldon in northern North Carolina with the Weldon and Wilmington railroad, which ran to the only functioning Atlantic confederate port at Wilmington, North Carolina. That was a major supply line for Lee, not only four blockade runners, but also from the produce from every place from Georgia and Alabama all the way through the Carolinas. And one of grant's offensives the fourth offensive cut that railroad. But it didn't end the supply line because Lee was able to bring his supplies by rail up to a point about twenty three miles south of Petersburg at a place called stoney creek. And then offloaded they'll supplies onto wagons brought them across country and indepedence Berg and then on the railroad from Petersburg to Richmond. But they were major logistical challenges. And grant understood this, of course, an attempted on several occasions to operate. Extensive cavalry raids designed to destroy those rail lines interdict that I mean, I is cut it off could cut it off the army dies. I mean, that's always been a source of fascination for me is how you keep an army fed, and how do you keep its animals fed? And because you know, we're we're in horse country here and a horse, you know, in in the army rigs regulations, it's fourteen pounds of oats and fourteen pounds of. Hey, a day per animal is what the armor, which takes something like sixty tons of supplies a day to sustain a civil war. Army in the field sixty tonnes a day. It's marketable logistical challenge. Yeah. And the army of northern Virginia suffered I would say incrementally. And also. Not in a continuous way. As the standard interpretation at Petersburg and said, the confederate army was starving and barefoot I think that's an exaggeration. Now. We're there periods of time. When particular units were not getting sufficient supplies. Absolutely. But it varied from unit to unit and it varied from time to time and Lee and his logistical officers is exciting John became new man in charge of logistical supplies for the army and the winter of eighteen sixty five did a much better job than his predecessor did in keeping the army of northern Virginia viable. Yeah. Our member well in our to get onto a more direct encounter between these two armies at Petersburg. I remember in in research. I was doing for George Meade that a the assistant coach. Master general road a report that I found in the papers of the quartermaster general in the national archives or he talked about the army of the Potomac in the overland campaign and on the brink of the Petersburg campaign, and how blood for the fact that there was a crops growing in Pennsylvania eastern, Pennsylvania, southern Pennsylvania and Maryland in their rear in the midsummer. The army would have been without anything, and they were relying on the grass to keep the animals of going, and I found what was interesting was that. Here's the army of the Potomac. You think is gonna be endless supplies. Yet even them. We're in trouble at times, the it's a it's really incredible. When you think about the supply situation for the union army's grants entire campaign from the wilderness to Petersburg was predicated on maintaining his supply line via water. He kept moving his supply line from tidal river title river when he left the orange in Alexandria road began the overland campaign out this was a vulnerable time because he had to move his supply line to the Rapahannock the Potomac river. I then as he moves out the ramp manic river and then to the York river and eventually to the James river where at Petersburg. He said up his logistical headquarters at city point, which became the busiest port in North America during the time the Petersberg campaign was being conducted. Being hundreds of ships coming and going every day. We have there's photographic evidence of it from the civil is as amazing the grant built a railroad behind his lines connecting city point with the front line. And just the the challenge of feeding all of those men and all of those animals was something that a competent general head to pay attention to much more often. Yeah. Then battle plans this. Exactly, right. It's like this. Exactly. Right. It's like you live in Chattanooga near Chattanooga. What Sherman did to Chattanooga to prepare his army for an advance into Georgia many turned Chattanooga into an industrial complex. Well. Absolutely. And and even before that what grant head due to lift the partial seeds of Chattanooga in the fall of eighteen sixty three opening the so-called cracker line. And we don't want to get involved all the. Mystics of the Chattanooga campaign. But but grant could not do anything at Chattanooga to relieve the siege. Until he established a reliable supply line that was mission number one. And it's always mission. Number one alarm. He's always always we, you know, one thing you do in your book is in this the first volume you've got out here as you ended at the crater, and I wanna talk a little bit about the battle of the crater. And a lot of people have heard about it. Some people know great deal. You are the one of the living historians, you're the one tell set the stage for the fighting the crater, well, the the crater resulted from action that began at the conclusion of grants, I offense of Petersburg, June fifteenth eighteenth battles and on the end of the day on the eighteenth, the fifth and ninth corps of the army of the Potomac approached the confederate line very closely. Only about. Two hundred hundred fifty to two hundred yards from the confederate forts, but they could not breach those force. They could not actually attack them in break the confederate line, but they were very close and they did not retreat. A member of the forty eighth Pennsylvania, which had a number of coal miners from northeastern Pennsylvania in its ranks looked at that confederate for it. One hundred fifty yards away on top of a hill and said, you know, if we could run a mine shaft underground beneath that fort and put powder, and we could blow it to hell, and that was the Genesis of the idea the commander of the brigade in which the forty eighth Pennsylvania served. It was the former commander of the forty eighth Pennsylvania was a man name Henry Pleasants who was a an established and esteemed mining engineer prior to the war. So he saw the feasibility of this concept and got permission from his superiors, including general Burnside. The core commander who N went to general Meade the army commander Meade and his. As engineering officer were skeptical of this can't on that the distance between where the mind would have to begin order to maintain secrecy and the confederate for it was just too long to ventilate among other challenges and more to keep the ninth corps fellows, busy than to expect anything really to come of it bead and his headquarters staff gave their permission, but not necessarily a lot of active support to the mining from. Interestingly over here in Lexington Kentucky and the forty eighth Pennsylvania. Get was garrisoned here occupied the grounds near Transylvania university. And there are four burials and our Lexington cemetery of members of the forty eighth Pennsylvania. Well, I read a letter the other day from a soldier who said that they referred to the ninth corps as burnside's geography class. I never heard that before. But he said, that's what they called the ninth corps because it had moved around everywhere from the east to Vicksburg and Kentucky's natty in. It's traveling. Oh, it really did the traveling ninth the wandering ninth. Well, let's go to June twenty fifth. This is where the mine operation begins kind of tell the our listeners what kind of issues Pleasants faced Colonel Pleasants faced in even constructing this thing. Well, the first job he had was to figure out how to align the mind, and he realized that doing so would be very dangerous when he was first assessing the feasibility of this he and one of his staff officers peak their heads up above the ravine in which the ninth corps was concealed. And Steph officer was shot in the head. And as a result. Sort of this. And so he realized that confederate marksman would shoot at anybody who appeared above the lip of that ravine, and so Pleasants had to acquire an old fashioned instrument Theodora light there was one at army headquarters, but the engineered army headquarters James Duane who did not like general Burnside decided that he wasn't alone. He had other uses for that the alight. So burns I was able to get an old fashioned one which is like a transit and Pleasants head to literally put a burlap sack on his head decorated with some Saad to make it look like turt-, and he brought three or four of his staff officers with him who he positioned about ten feet or fifteen feet away from him who then raised their kept. He's on the tips of their bayonets to attract the attention of confederate marksman, and as they confederates were shooting at those kept. He's. Pleasants peaked up over the ravine with his burlap hat and took readings and was able to actually align his mind. So that would go underneath the fort. But he had Kenny had lots of other challenges. He had to figure out a way to ventilate the shaft he had to figure out a way to hide the excavated dirt. So the confederates wouldn't see that mining was going on he had to obtain would for shoring and all of these logistical problems, which he was able to overcome the one thing he didn't do particularly. Well, and this is understandable. And not really a criticism was despite his admonitions to keep this operation secret. Of course, word got out, and he could not prevent these thousands of union soldiers who are aware either directly or by rumor of mining. Yeah. That. It was going on. Yeah. How how long did this was the shaft in? It was it was the the shaft itself was five hundred and ten feet eight inches long. And then he had a construct to thirty seven and a half foot long lateral galleries that branched off like a big wide v from the end of the tunnel underneath the confederate fort in which the black powder would be placed that would be the explosive. So all together, what is this seventy five almost five hundred and what eighty six feet of excavation in order to get this done. The tunnel was about four and a half feet high about four feet wide at the base may be two and a half feet wide at the top. I think someone once calculated the amount of earth number of cubic yards of earth at were that we're excavated. I can't recall the figure, but it was a massive amount. And these fellows. I had to take all the dirt out and they bring up hard cat hard tack boxes than they put handles on them and there'd be three minors. Can't it would go in one would have a pick that Pleasants head adapted for use inside the tunnel who had actually excavate the dirt the second fellow would take the dirt and put it in the box. The third fellow would pick up the box and take it out and the Selva work in two hour shifts. They would come out looking like, they said Brown gophers, and they'd all be given a Gill of whiskey as reward for their for their work and the forty eighth Pennsylvania. Did the excavating exclusively they were the only unit that did it. Yeah. Had there ever been a mind that extensive done. No there had not. And this was the origin of major Dwayne skepticism about Wayne the engineer at the army of the Potomac was actually the author. of the manual on. How to mine? Your listeners need to understand that. There wasn't anything particularly innovative about the strategy of mining underneath an enemy position it had been done for centuries. And in fact, grant, head on this at Vicksburg the previous year. So the idea of a mine was not unique or innovative. But the excavation of of that length five hundred ten feet was unique. And the problem was ventilating that much air without the confederates finding out about tell tell our listeners about the ventilation of this Speedo is based on principles that pleasant said used in civilian mining and Pennsylvania, very basic stuff. Can you get a locked in a room for ten weeks? And I never would have come up with. But it was based on the principle of hot air rises. And what he did was as I say you'd have to see the ground which is well preserved, and you can still understand how the mining went by visiting the site, but the mouth of the mine was down in this ravine that was not visible from the confederates on top of the hill. And as he dug his mind, I maybe forty fifty feet he would get underneath the lip of that ravine in just inside the top of that ravine. So it wasn't visible Pleasants. Doug vertical shaft was a little over twenty feet. Deep down into the base of the mine at the bottom of that shaft. He had a great in which he kept a fire going, and then he rigged up a wooden duct or pipe that connected. The end of the digging with the outside of the mine, which he closed off with an airtight Candice door. And so as the fire burned it would draw the bad air out hot air rises out the shaft like a chimney and the vacuum. Then be created in that air would be replaced by fresh air coming in through the duct. Now, a couple of things puzzle me about this that I've never seen an explanation for one thing in particular was of course, these fellas had to come and goal the time in and out of that. Time. So they had to remove the canvas door and replace it every time they did. So which I would have thought would have interfered with this airflow, but nowhere as does anyone mentioned in the literature any real problems with the quality of the air. Now, I'm sure that if you and I had been at the end of that shaft, we would have found it almost suffocating and claustrophobic I wouldn't have gone unpleasant. But obviously it was sufficiently efficient to sustain life and have these guys keep working. Yeah. And how long did it take until this thing was ready three weeks three weeks? He finished the shaft and on July seventeenth started on on June twenty fifth so just a little over three weeks. And then he dug those lateral galleries that took a few more days. And then when the powder arrived for C prefabricated all of the wooden Ellum. Of this outside of the mine, and then disassembled it and brought it into the mind, and then reassembled it, and he had the build eight a hoppers, which were basically square boxes at the bottom with a funnel like device fixed on top. And that's where the black powder would be poured in and he got eight thousand pounds of explosive powder that came in twenty five pound kids. And so some poor guy's head to get rigged up with like, a an oxen yoke, they put around her shoulders with two little bags on either side in which these twenty five pound wooden kings of powder were placed and his fellas. Head to bend over and walk. More than five hundred feet in this confined space with fifty pounds of black powder on their person through shaft that was eliminated by candle. So that took a few Kahane's. I should say, you know, in a period of only ten or twelve hours, they were able to charge all of the hoppers those eight thousand pounds powder, and then they acquired regular fuse which came in short lengths and so pleasant head to splice them together. It was about ninety eight feet fuse, which they connected to the hoppers that ran back from the lateral galleries. And then the last thing he did was to tamp the mentoring. It's the junction of the tunnel. Lateral galleries aren't with sandbags and logs. So that when the explosion occurred, the tampering would prevent it from going back down the tunnel. Instead, make sure that went up and by July. Twenty-seventh this operation was completely finished. And ready to go before we light the fuse fuses. Tell me tell the our listeners about where this this whole operation is at grant's headquarters. He's he's basically the boss here. Although meat is commanding the army the Potomac but still the final decisions going to be with grant. Where is grant? I mean is he on board with this grant and meet are on the same page in this Kent in in in which they have skepticism not so much about the technical ability of Pleasants to build this mine, but the efficacy of a an attack subsequent to the explosion, both meet and grant were skeptical that anything would come of this because of the nature of the confederate defense. Yeah. Grant was not thinking that the mine was central to his planning for what we call the third offensive Petersburg, instead grant relied on an operation that would go across the James river around June twenty second the federal army had established a bridgehead on the north side of the James river at a place called deep bottom. There was a brigade of federal soldiers that held that little beachhead. And so grants idea was to send the entire second corps when field Scott handcocks core. Arguably the best core in his army along with Phil Sheridan's cavalry. And this operation was designed for Sheridan getting back to railroads to go and break erodes leading into Richmond from the north and the west, and maybe maybe handcock could be successful in breaching the confederate defenses north of the James and inner Richmond itself. Burnside's mine was an afterthought. In fact, grant just said told me day while just have him explode the mine anyway, without anything happening flim this operation on the north side of the James it's known in civil history as I the bottom failed, but it did succeed in drawing all but three of the confederate infantry divisions at Petersburg until the north side of. The james. And so it is on July twenty eight that grant says neces- will plan a was a fizzle. But you know, now, we have plan B, and they're not that many confederates Petersburg anymore. Maybe this darn thing will work bead. Let's make it hap-. So that's where the grant, you know, who I admire in many ways, I think that grant was clearly if not the best general on the union side, one of the best generals. I'm not an anti grant fellow at all. But like almost all civil war figures embellishes in his memoirs, and he will say that this was his ideal all memoirs and most stories of picked up on this. They call deep bottom diversion. You. Gotta be careful with grant's memoirs. That's really, really. But it worked out that way. It was a happy coincidence that this happened. And so really at the eleventh hour Meade is charged with responsibility of making this darn thing happened, not only exploding the mine, but then executing burnside's plan for an attack. Yeah. Well, you know grant had seen this this similar thing happened at Vicksburg the previous year and a detonated mine underneath the third Louisiana Redan and tried to pour. Poor John Logan's division through there. And it got bogged down and then a counter attack, and it was a bloody mess and failed. So I mean he'd seen this before you gotta you gotta think in your head that this is rolling around in his brain going. Well, I don't know this. I've seen this happen before. And it didn't work then I don't know why was gonna work now. But you know, when he runs out of options, and you know, you can only you look at debottling and see the failure. There is gotta fullback somewhere, and it and it did work to extend this the the point is that the deep bottom operation did draw. Again, the jury of the federal infantry over to the north side of the James. So the only distinction I wanna make is that that was not grants original intention, but it worked out that way. So now, the confederates have two infantry divisions on the eastern front, and then one infantry division, Mahomes infantry division extending to the west of a of a road leading into Petersburg called the Jerusalem plank road, and that's all and that's all they've got. So now, hey, maybe this darn thing will work, and again, I must so sure that grant was skeptical about. The explosion coming off. I think he and Mead. We're skeptical that once the explosion occurred, they didn't have the chance to exploit it at the confederate defenses will be too strong. Yeah. But now the confederate defenses were week who were weaker. So I in my opinion, it's just an opinion. But I I think that this operation had every chance of being successful exempt for the way it was planned. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Before we get into exploding. This do this very shortly. To do this in short order. Let's let's talk just a very brave very briefly about the confederates who are over top this mind. This is Stephen Elliott's brigade. Yes. Stephen Elliott, who is a south Carolinian of some strong lineage. His gate had come up. They had spent most of the war in South Carolina around Charleston. They had been brought up in the spring of eighteen sixty four along with a number of other confederate units. As Lee was trying to bulk up defenses in Virginia, and they were part of Beauregard army general PG Tibo regard was in command of the department of North Carolina and southern Virginia by June eighteenth. He was functioning essentially as a corps commander under leave are. But there was Li was respectful of Bora guards position as a in independent. Army commander. And Elliott head of five South Carolina regiments of fifteen hundred men they protected in artillery battery commanded by name, Richard Peake room. Who was the cousin of the famous willy p willing confederate artillery for four Napoleon's? I believe we're in. We're in the Ford, and the Ford itself was somewhat is located in that this was part of Boll regards third defense line. The first line was compromised on June. Fifteenth second line was abandoned on the night of June seventeenth eighteenth and his third line was constructed. But it was done in the dark, and this salient is Elliott's p groom salient was actually located a little bit out in front of where it should have been. But the confederates did a great job of compensating for that misplace location by having artillery batteries on either side. Of Elliott's salient that could sweep the approaches to that apparently vulnerable fort. And this is why the union strategists said boy, no frontal attack is going to work here. Yeah. Because it would just be blasted by this flanking fire of confederate Tillery now the confederates there can't were. They had heard rumors about union mining and back the rumors were sufficiently credible to compel general Beauregard to send an engineer officer to not only PM salient, but to other salience, they didn't know where this reminding was going on they dug these counter mines looking for this reputed tunnel never found it and like all things in Uman endeavors when you suspect something is happening. But you don't find any evidence of it you begin to get skeptical? Yeah. And so I would say that there were very few confederate defenders that Ford who are aware they were about to be blown into heaven on that next morning July thirtieth now before he lights these fuses. Now has there been or or just explain what kind of a planning? There was to to launch the. Attack into this area. That's going to be blown up. Explain a little of that for. Well. Of course, now, this is certain to get into why this darn thing didn't work Burnside head for divisions. Three of them were compl- comprised of white troops. One was comprised of a combat innocent division of African American troops force division. Now burnside's three white divisions had been heavily involved in the attacks on June six seventeenth eighteenth. They had taken very severe casualties, and they were not in particularly great combat condition. And you could say that incidentally, about almost all of the the Potomac Ornette time, but the black vision had not been engaged in because of the bias against black troops and their commander and their officers were very eager to. To demonstrate their worth as soldiers and they were gung hole to make the attack. Consequently, Burnside designated them as the as the leaders now reputedly, your listeners will read general accounts of Petersburg, and they will read that the black troops had received extensive training for this unique operation, I'm not so sure the evidence sustains that they may have had some training, but I think you can exaggerate that a little bit. But the plan was for the black division to lead the assault to go on either side there were two brigades in this division. One. Brigade would go to the left of the hole created by the explosion one brigade we go to the right, and then they would both converge on high ground where Blandford church is located today. The soldiers call it cemetery hill, there was a big cemetery associated with the church, and that was the highest ground in the area. And theoretically if union. Infantry and artillery held at high ground. They would interdict almost the entire confederate defense line. Now, what would have happened from? There is speculative, and I can't tell you what would happen, but it would have been a much tougher day for the confederate army if that would have occurred. But at the eleventh hour on July twenty eighth when grant tells me, hey, let's do this mind thing. Now, the bottom is beneficial. Let students mind thing Burnside and meet have conference in meet tells burns, you can't use the black troops Burnside is upset by this. Why and meet explains will first of all they've never been in combat. Right. How can we trust these brand new soldiers? I mean, they was far as we know them. I just turn around and run away. And Secondly, if the attack is not successful in the black troops suffered terrible casualties. What is the press going to say they're going to say that all this emancipate, and we're fighting to end slavery. But we send these black troops into get slaughtered. We don't care about them politically. That's unacceptable. You have to use one of your white interesting. So politics do enter into this. Also, a military decision. Burnside hope said grant will. Overrule me. But grant, sustains Mead. And so literally around noon on July, the twenty ninth meet informs Burnside. Nope. You gotta pick somebody else up until this time Burnside has done just about everything right operation. But now he makes the mistake. He has to competent white division commanders commanders of white troops. I should say they're all the division commanders are white, and he has one who's awful who's drunk and coward and who has demonstrated his inability to lead troops instead of designated. One of those two competent white division commanders to lead the attack Burnside being genial fellow none of his commanders volunteering for this dangerous mission. He says, well guys, I'm not gonna make somebody do it. Let's just leave it up to chance the polls lots. And of course, the man who gets the short straw is. The word is the worst. His name is James Ledley. And so lead Lii is given responsibility for his division for leading the attack are K. And and he's gonna lead lead league's going to lead the attack. And then are the the the the two African American commands are going to be where where are their they're relegated to be in the last of the four divisions to make an attack. Okay. And they're very upset about. And so as their commander for real. Yeah. To make matters worth worst. Can't that that not only have they changed the leadership. But Ledley gives contrary orders to his brigade commanders rather than skirting the creator and heading for cemetery hill, which is burnside's plan. He tells us brigade commanders to skirt the creator and hold the ground subsequent divisions than will expand the breach and the black troops who will be fourth. To make the assault will be the ones to take cemetery hill. So you not only have the worst division commander in the army of the Potomac leading the attack with what? Eleven twelve hours of lead time, the fifteen hours of lead time the plan this, but he has given contrary orders. Yeah. So this is a formula for disaster. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we're at three fifteen in the morning of July thirty tell us what happened. Well, the the explosion is supposed to take place at three thirty. Of course, the the ninth floor is poised to to make this assault. The fifth floor is on their left poise to follow up. Two divisions of the army of the James r to the right poise the follow up. Henry hunt has one hundred ten cannon fifty four mortars ready to open up on the confederates to keep down. Fire. And so everybody's at the edge of their seat. Mead has moved forward to burnside's old. Command post Burnside has moved forward to a position where he can see where the mine is going to explode. Colonel Pleasants and a fellow named Jacob dowdy on the forty eighth Pennsylvania. Enter the shaft go down four hundred feet late. Those ninety eight foot long fuses there's five of them for redundancy. They scramble back out of the tunnel on wait for the explosion. And wait wait for clock. Nothing happens grant rides forward to me. It says what the heck's going on? He says, I don't know. I'll tell burn IS Burnside burns as I don't know. Yeah. Grant Hill's Mead. Hey, if the thing doesn't explode till Burnside to attack anyway, which I think is incredibly reckless there. Well, Colonel Pleasants figures out that probably the fuse of burned out at a splice. So he endowed he'd go back into the mind. Yes, they burned out, but they forgot to bring any matches. So they went back out, and they came back in and they lit those fuses. And of course, they're much shorter now than they were orig-. Really? So they magin get out of that tunnel quickly and at four forty four A M this gigantic explosion occurs. How? And after after. I mean after it explodes. Then the the the infantry move right into the bridge pretty much so Burnside gets I think unfair criticism for being accused of not preparing for his troops to get out of the trenches to make the attack the evidence sustained that three hundred fifty two confederates are casualties immediately. As a result of the explosion. And then lead lead division goes forward. Not with Ledley, however, allegedly has sought succor from a bottle of medicinal liquor. He says he's suffering from the ill effects, bad water and has been slightly wounded and he needs some additional liquor. So he is hiding in a bomb proof shelter during the attack. The brigade commanders move. Forward. They see this incredible unprecedented. Mayhem created by. This explosion thirty foot deep hole hundred twenty six feet long, sixty some feet wide bodies all over the place half buried men. No leadership. And so they spend time extricating some of these poor confederates out of their graves, and then obeying their orders to hold the position. And they missed the window of opportunity could have changed the course of the Petersberg. So they they get finally get into the crater, and and what's the confederate response. Well, the confederates are disorganized for baby fifteen or twenty minutes. But then they do a pretty good job of recovering their wits and begin closing. The gaps is about a five hundred yard evacuated area of the confederate line explosion in its. Relative impact has created of five football field long gap in the confederate line, but the federals aren't moving forward and the confederates begin lobbing artillery shells at the crater area lobbing mortars at the crater. And as soon as Lee and Beauregard are informed of this event. Leeson's orders to general Mahone who has been his go to guy has been his shock troops located farthest away from the crater to take two of his brigades and to try to regain lost ground. So Mahone will surreptitiously have two or three guys at a time leave the front line. So they look like they're just going back to get water. He assembles about two thousand men Georgians Virginians, and they take a securities route that's invisible to the federals, and then they. Use ravines to get into a position about two to three hundred yards from the crater in order to launch their counter attack describe for our listeners. What what this looked like what happened? Well, the confederates this gets into the rather ugly aspect of of the creator of in in which there's a racial component. Now. The black division fourth division is the last to go forward. They do they do it with enthusiasm, and they actually go a little farther forward than any of the other white troops to not. I mean that talking twenty yards beyond the federal line or so, and he's confederate counter attackers are now made aware for the first time that they're going to be fighting black troops and their American soldiers would shout as they made their attack. No quarter remember for pill now, no quarter as your listeners know means. We're not gonna take prisoners. Yeah. We're going to kill you. And remember for pillow was a reference to a celebrated much publicized event in west Tennessee, April in which Nathan Bedford Forrest was accused of authorizing the slaughter of surrendered black soldiers in this fort on the Mississippi River, north of Memphis. It was conventional wisdom amongst confederate soldiers that there would be no quarter shown them by black troops. So you have this setup in which both sides believe that it is war to the death or two. And that's the mindset that the confederates go forward with well long story short these two confederate brigades make their assault of jillions go first, they recapture a large section of the line. Just north of the crater. The Georgia's come in. But their attack is rather disorganized. And they they are pretty much repulsed. So by noon, the confederates are in scon- near their old blown up lines to the north of the crater. Several thousand of these leaderless. Federal soldiers are in and around the crater itself without any real tactical organization Meade and grant have given up on the operation, and basically told Burnside get out of there done we're done. And so the temperature is hundred degrees. The confederates are lobbing mortar shells into the federal lines. So there's random mayhem the federals are stacking. Corpses of their own men and dead confederates as breast works against these confederate attackers. And Mahone has realized that by this time that his tuber Gaid's made gains, but they did not regain all lost ground. He needed more troops. And so he had some it is a third brigade of alabaman's commanded by very young former student at the university of Alabama named John C Sanders. Twenty four years old Sanders brings six hundred thirty two of his Alabama soldiers on the same securities route moans, I two brigades followed. They went into that ravine and at one o'clock the their orders to make an attack. Gosh almighty, what tell us keep keep keep going. Well, little for how I think, you know, we talk about leadership civil war is a great exemplar for how to lead people in one of the great things that Sanders and his officers did from a leadership standpoint was to employ psychology. And these fellows are sitting there looking at this chaos and mayhem in front of them. Generally in general Beauregard, I think incredibly head position themselves a little White House called the gay house. Just on the other side of the Jerusalem plank road, not five hundred yards from the crater, which I think is remarkably reckless on their part of your that close to the action here, but they're they're watching what's going on in Sanders in his officers. Tell these young Alabama boys in those five Alabama regiments that if they fail in their attack. The general Lee has volunteered to lead them to a second effort. Now, there's no evidence that Lee ever said that. No, no. But but knowing how devoted the army was generally in how the idea of pudding leeann position where he'd have to risk his life. Yeah. Because they failed. Yeah. Was tremendous motivator. Yeah. And so at one o'clock Sanders men go forward, and this is where some of the most brutal and horrifying hand to hand combat of the entire civil war takes place. Yeah. Yeah. And there is a a wholesale slaughter of the union troops. Particularly the black troops. The confederates. Are there's all sorts of evidence that I present in my book. There's no question that there was a calculated plan by the confederates to murder, surrendered confederate surrendered black union soldiers. And they did so. Impunity. And it didn't take all that long and Sanders. Head was able to regain the position with only about a thousand union survivors, left to surrender and credible. It's awful. Yeah. What? What would what would have been the total number of casualties on both sides still hard as you know from your own work. Can't you know casualty figures that are reported are are just estimates. Presented us as facts. But I found that. There's just no way that you can really know. Now, the federals reported three thousand seven hundred ninety eight casualties. I think there were many more than that. Yeah. Yeah. The the confederates lost sixteen hundred men more or less, which was almost the same percentage of troops engaged as the federals as they own the confederate only had three brigades involved in this in this battle. So the casualties were were very heavy particularly on the union side of about seventeen to eighteen percent of the soldiers engaged here. We're casualties, but amongst the black troops an interesting statistic was for most of the civil war the ratio of kill to wound in a battle would be about one killed for every four point eight men wounded at the crater for the black troops. It was one man killed for every one point eight men wounded which. It shows you that these wounded and surrendering relax olders were just murdered. And there's just so much evidence for this that it's just indisputable that this happened. And what to me is sad. And remarkable and begs questions is why did this happen and there were no repercussions. In fact, there's lots of evidence, and I was shocked frankly can't define us in doing research for this for this book, lots of evidence to indicate that everyone from southern civilians to newspaper editors to members of the army entirely approved of what happened now Mahone at at one point apparently, and there's enough evidence here, I think this really did happen that he called it off. He said, stop stop it. Stop it. Yeah. And there was an editorial in one of the leading Richmond newspaper several days later that took Mahone to task and basic. Said general and the next time black soldiers come to attack us have some brandy and water strengthen your stomach and do the work that God intended you to slaughter every black soldier comes against us. So that was the ugly vicious mindset, but I want to I say that not to be condemnatory of confederate soldiers, although any human being would be condemnatory of them. But try to understand why in the mindset was this would be the way that either side would would the other. If they didn't the other was going to do it. And there's evidence to indicate that when the black troops had the chance they murdered confederate captured confederates too. Yeah. So it was you know, we like we like in our in our history to sugar coat, everything and think that these guys really didn't dislike each other. And when the war ended, they all got up. Attics and saying Coon by but it was an ugly. Business is an awful lot of of out hatred between blacks and whites and confederate and union soul and between in between the the on those confederates and their union counterparts their white counterparts. I mean, this this war going on a long time. Well, yes. One of the shocking things, I don't know how much this happened apparently had happened a little bit. The evidence is not overwhelming on this. But enough to convince me that it did happen that as the confederates came into the crater, and we're killing all these black soldiers the white soldiers who were about to be captured shot some of their own black comrades lie because they wanted to demonstrate to the confederates that they didn't like the blacks anymore than they. Then the confederates did. And so don't kill me. Because I'm with you, buddy. Yeah. I don't like these African American soldiers either. And so there were evidence of that. And there was also some offhand comments made after the battle by witnesses union witnesses who were clearly not upset by the fact that the black troops were slaughtered like this. So this racism, racial attitude was pervasive on both on both sides. Yeah. Gosh, they so the confederates regained the the crater the counter attacks drove him back, and they would hold physician the rest of the campaign. Yeah. And just think how long that would go this is July thirty and when does Lee evacuate. Peter's Lil we have another what eight months ago more. Yeah. Of this to go. And and again, casualty figures Petersburg are only estimates. But you know, there were probably north of a hundred and twenty five thousand total casualties. Peter's Clin you imagine, which no even dwarfs Gettysburg Manal get his extre- day days and Petersburg's two hundred ninety two days. But I hope that your listeners who are interested in civil or military history will try to suspend their disbelief that Petersburg was a boring trench like Dottie. Yeah. I don't like to use the word. Siege. I think that just implies a very uninteresting military operation, and sort of invested in the premise that this is an interesting. Since I've spent years of my life writing about well, you've made it. So you've made I hope our listeners understand how how much you've made it. So in your talk with me today. A little note of personal experience of mine in in in this some years ago. I was called by auto fella in Petersburg. Who was the son of a veteran of the twelfth Virginia infantry in Mahone JR. Brigade. Didn't run across very many sons of confederate veterans. I ran across a son of a union veteran once in a parade at Alonzo cushing's birthplace, della feel Wisconsin all you must be old. Knowing these better. Well, I mean, it was the guy was he he he was born when his dad was dad had him when he was really an older, man. I mean in his late sixties early seventies. And at any rate he called me up, and he said I had done some work with him before. And he called me and asked me can't we we have uncovered some remains of a of a confederate who came from here and who was killed in the counterattack in the crater. And would you would would it be possible for you to come out and give a eulogy by the grave in Blandford cemetery, right up Druce lem plank road and cemetery hill. And I said, you know, I would love to. And I said I happen to be in Albion the area around the same time, and I'll make the point so. So my wife, and I went over to Blandford cemetery. There was they had identified this man through something they found in the in the hastily dug grave that they located and the family was there, and I'll never forget giving talk in Blandford cemetery over the grave of someone who fell having been invited by the son of one of his comrades about the battle of the crater and told him how the detonation went up in the air, and it was just down there. And it was the most I don't know kind of spine tingling thing. I think I've ever done. He reminds us it really the civil were wasn't that long. No, his why bring it up. I mean, it's because it isn't that long ago. It's I mean. I'm sixty nine going on seventy. And I think when I was a kid we celebrated the centennial hundred years L EDNA longtime. I've lived seventy years, and that doesn't seem like very long and yet here we are in our lifetime. You know, will we were born, you know, eighty some odd years after the war. Well, I knew a fellow whose father was in the civil or to in PS Burgas father was in pickett's charge in just like the gentleman that you were talking about his mother at a young age, married, est. This eighty year old confederate veteran he's had enough in them. Father a child. Yeah. Because the confederate veteran head of pension. Yeah. And he had means and this poor woman did not have many prospects. I mean, if you if you're a southern woman at that time, if you weren't married life was going to be very difficult in so this did happen. But this is why I think this is also important to us, and what you do in all of your endeavors can't is keeping the memory and the relevance of the civil war alive to current and future generations. And I think that's really what all of us who are engaged in public history. Want to do because this is an incredibly important period in our history. I don't know how you can understand contemporary America without understanding are precedents. Yeah. And the civil war was so central to who we are today. It is positively central and and while we're here. Talking right before we have to close here will and you too. You have been a public historian for how many years about forty five four five. Yeah. Yeah. And look at all you've done. I mean, you've basically created pamphlet park in at Petersburg. And you have spoken to so many audience is you have done so much publicly about the war that the same goes back to you. I mean, you have done a tremendous service. Well, I appreciate it. And I think we, you know, I know that you share my feeling that we have an almost an obligation. I don't wanna get to emotional about it. But I think if we spent a great deal of our life's studying this, and we have obligations to share it. And I think that's what history does is not to not to belittle. Our academic colleagues. Oftentimes talk to each other. Yeah. But not so much to a wider audience. What you and I try to do is bring this fascinating and important aspect of our very being as Americans to as wide an audience as we can if we're historically illiterate. As a culture, I don't think our culture has much of a future agree with you. It's the whole reason we have this witnessing history. -education foundation is to bring it to his wide audience as possible. It's a terrific rim. And I and I thank you for allowing me to be a part of it. Well, you've been a friend of mine since what was it? We calculated last night nineteen Eighty-four as a log town. Eighty clear was. Nineteen Eighty-four will thank you so much for for being here. Thank you for your friendship, and thank you for your wonderful description. I appreciate the clarity. Can't. Thank you. He come in American hero. Who participates in our mission by joining us at witnessing history dot ORG. Download our documentaries and free teacher education materials that conform to grade level education standards at PBS learning Archie follow witnessing history on Facebook, Twitter and linked in.

confederates army Petersburg general Burnside Lee Potomac confederate army Brigade George Meade General Grant Colonel Pleasants Petersburg Richmond Pennsylvania Virginia commander Pleasants Vicksburg Kent Masterson Brown
The Confederate spy who evaded capture

Retropod

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

The Confederate spy who evaded capture

"Hi there I'm Washington Post reporter Lillian Cunningham. Stay tuned after the show to hear about my latest podcast moon rise. It's the dark but true true story of why we went to the moon and what we found there. The full series is available now. History lovers rush. I'm Mike Rosenwasser Retro pod. A show about the past rediscovered on February nineteenth eighteen sixty seven in American American gunboat return to Washington's Navy Yard after a months-long trip to the Middle East among the sailors onboard. outstep a filthy the young men in shackles. His name was John Harrison Surat. He was the most wanted man in the entire the world two years earlier Surat had been a confederate spy in a desperate bid to reverse the tide of the civil war Surat brought conspired with a fellow named John Wilkes booth to kidnap President Abraham Lincoln. The plot failed of course instead instead on April fourteenth eighteen sixty five booth slipped into Ford's theater and shot Lincoln in the head newspapers across the country featured photos of booth and Surat under the headline assassins booth as you might recall from history. Class was hunted down and killed in in a burning barn in Virginia eight of his alleged co conspirators including Surat's mother. Mary were arrested quickly. Tried led by a military commission in found guilty but Surat. He was nowhere to be found both physically and later in the pages of history. His remarkable tale in the aftermath of Lincoln's assassination is a footnote overshadowed by boost moose infamous act Surat was born in eighteen forty four and raised in the small Maryland. Town in Prince George's County Johny. That bore his family's name Surat Ville though it is now known as Clinton his father was the postmaster and also owned the local tavern where hours after Lincoln's assassination booth stopped for weapons and supplies. The Surat's were devoutly Valley Catholic slave owners. According to one of Surat's old pals his older brother fought for the confederate army in Texas. His sister Mr. She was a ferocious secessionist and his mother was devoted body and soul to the cause of the South Surat took over as postmaster after his father died in eighteen sixty two but it was really just a cover. He used the position to transmit messages messages often regarding union troop movements between confederate operatives up and down the east coast eventually the government caught on in Surat was fired but he continued working as a confederate courier and when his family moved in eighteen sixty four to a boardinghouse at owned in Washington Surat soon met booth and other co conspirators. The South then was losing the civil war in that was a result. Surat booth could not fathom but booth had a bold plan kidnap Lincoln trade him for thousands of confederate prisoners and turn the tide of the conflict booth Surat and others went so far as to hide on the side of a road ready to ambush Lincoln on his way to a play but the day they waited Lincoln never appeared several several weeks later just after the south surrendered booth got his revenge on Lincoln shooting the president while he attended a play at Ford's theatre booth took off on Horseback with another conspirator. Witnesses would later testify that they had seen Surat at Ford's theatre the night of the assassination and wanted posters went up searching for both men but Surat said he was three hundred miles away in Elmira New York on a secret mission to survey a prison were confederate. Soldiers were being kept Surat. Said he learned end of Lincoln's killing from a newspaper fearing arrest. He made his way to Montreal. Then a hotbed of confederate activity. Along the way a he picked up another newspaper. This time his name was on the front page. Surat spent about a week in Montreal hiding out in his hotel room. As American detective scoured the city he then escaped into the country. Holing up in a priest's house. It was there that he learned his mother and several others had been arrested and accused of plotting Lincoln's assassination. His mother was hand hanged. Surat eventually took off for Europe. Living Life on the Lam under various identities and enlisting in the pope's army after eluding captors. Italy Surat was finally tracked Down Thirties in Egypt. His trial was the trial of the century. That's injury and wound up with Hungary a judge throughout a second indictment because it hasn't been filed within two years of the crime. Surat was free on a technicality. He disappeared to south with America for seven months and when he returned he found a job teaching at a public school in Rockville Maryland. Surat went on on with his life getting married having seven kids and working as an auditor for a steamship company after he died on on April twenty first nine hundred sixteen. The New York Times Obituary said Mr Serrato flight from this country and his subsequent capture in trial was one of the most thrilling incidents of the years following the civil war. The story was buried inside the the paper. Thus beginning Surat's second life as a mere footnote. Mike Rosen Walt. Thanks for listening. This episode was adapted from a story written by Michael Miller for the Washington Post for more forgotten stories from history. Visit visit Washington Post Dot com slash. Retro pod Hi I'm Lillian Cunningham. Host The Washington Post's presidential and constitutional podcasts. We've just-released the finale for my latest series called Moon Rise. It reexamines the story. You thought you knew about why we went to the Moon I dig into newly declassified documents and presidential records closed door political political deals the Cold War nuclear arms race and even the history of science fiction to tell a new story about space. Listen on your favorite PODCAST APP or at Washington Post Dot com slash moon rise. You can binge

Surat Surat President Abraham Lincoln Surat booth Surat Ville Washington Surat South Surat Italy Surat booth The Washington Post Lillian Cunningham Washington confederate army Ford Montreal Washington Post Dot Mike Rosenwasser Moon Rise Middle East
Hour 1: 6/11/20

The Paul Finebaum Show

00:00 sec | 5 months ago

Hour 1: 6/11/20

"Cliff Barn. Company is the family employee owned maker of cliff bars, cliff, kid and Luna Bars, and here's something I. Love about them since they started almost thirty years ago. They've always put people and communities I now they've committed to help. Feed the fight with get this and initial donation of more than seven million cliff, Luna and cliff kid bars to food banks, first responders and healthcare workers fighting this pandemic boom community. It's a beautiful thing. The Paul Finebaum show podcast is presented by the capital. One venture card earn unlimited double miles on every purchase every day. What's in your wallet? Cried Passion and patron tree of college football leaves here. The Paul Finebaum show our one podcast. We welcome you to Thursday so great to have all of you with us man. We have a lot to do. Today has been a busy busy week and we'll get right to it which share with you some headlines. That you may have missed while you've been out doing whatever a talking about. A different model. From DOT COM ACOUSTIC, model and crisis to crippling impact of schools cutting sports. We talked about that the other day with Chris Fini, and it is one of the pervading pervasive themes throughout the world of intercollegiate athletics more about that today. Meanwhile this comes from three man front in Birmingham. We'll talk to kill Cuba who does one of the three men on that. They have learned that Alabama has has had three more players test positive for covid nineteen, the three players who tested positive for a symptomatic part of the second round remember last week. We heard of five other players and we're still trying to get a handle on. What some people say is rather a rather chaotic. Beginning to the college football season, we expected it, but still not good news. Activism seems to be the theme and Lane Kiffin said. We're off to a great start. Remember. We saw Kiffin the other day at a rally in Oxford and. There's more to be done now. This is a theme that we continue to see throughout college football in We'll see more of it. This weekend I can assure you especially at a couple of places that we have been talking about including Clemson Trevor Lawrence speaking today to the media. Saying I've had a lot to learn, and it's been cool to learn from these guys. I think coach Sweeney. It's easy to judge some things he does, but the biggest true testament to who he is or the people around him every day, the glowing views. We have of the person. He is certainly surprising comments. They're coming from the starting quarterback at Clemson. That's a story that has been with us. And meanwhile the confederate flag is finally gone at Nascar Races and I won't miss it for a second. That's Ryan McGee although I. Think a lot of people out. There would echo. Those thoughts been I've been on. Various shows today from ESPN early in the morning to others talking about that, and we will get our first chance to dig it on the subject here in just a few minutes at eight, five, five, two, four, two, seven, two, eight, five, so that's how we set up here. On a Thursday afternoon I mentioned that we'll talk to Ryan McGee a little bit later on. He wrote that piece for ESPN. He'll be with us. Cole Cubelic as well Pat, forty one of the great writers in the country from SL and Michael Collins on there. There is real golf today for the first time from Colonial Country Club in Fort Worth, and we'll talk to Michael about that. But, I mentioned your phone calls at eight, five, five, two, four, two, seven, two, eight, five. The it has been before. We even get started I didn't interview today A. Callers to the show with the New York Times and I have to say how energize I have been over these last three weeks. It's been difficult I. Think I think we all know that for all. The subject matter has been uncomfortable to say the least there have been some good days and bad days, but I do appreciate everyone's honesty regardless of how you feel. That's not really what we require. Here is point of view. We just simply. Ashore, in hope to get an honest conversation, and that's what we've been getting, so let's get to the phones. I mentioned the number eight, five, five, two, four, two, seven, two, eight, five. We are starting today with. With. Larry who was in Maryland Larry Great to have you on again. Thank you and welcome back to the show. thank you Paul A well to respond to a caller who said what said were slaves who fought for the confederacy. Responded to that question. some black slaves eight. It's a confederacy. Most of them were forced to accompany their masters over forced to be cooked. Manual Labor's ought to do the things. But me! Would not. Larry there. there. You Larry. Let me help here for a second disregard, the TV in the background that it's just going to distract you. Okay. I, but would not legally allowed to serve as combat soldiers in the confederate army. This is not the Slayton that no slave filed a gun for the confederacy. Yeah. Listen. If, you go back to that period of time and if you were. It's not like a slave I'm not that I was there. I just read. It's they really have much choice in the matter, so you're right, very interesting point. If you look at the official records of the war or Rebellion which is collection of military records from both the confederacy, and the you, they're only seventeen union soldier eyewitness reports from a small number of plays fire net them. However there is no record of union so to the Cowan an all black group, confederate soldiers, or anything close to it. Okay well listen I. You know I I I said this before, and I'll say it again. the civil war is. In an leading up to it is my weakest subject in American, history And maybe it was just voidance because I. Didn't have a I didn't as I've said I wasn't involved or my family wasn't involved, but I'm going to go back in. And Dig in here because I think there's a lot I need to learn, and I appreciate that Larry and I'll I'll report back to you tomorrow. GATOR man is upset of next in Mississippi gator man. You are on the go right ahead. Hey Paul I wanted to talk about NASCAR's decision on the confederate flag and to me it just all the more shows that NASCAR is out of touch with their audience. NASCAR is it's a southern sport and. A lot of the P. It's predominantly a white sport, but for the most part it's. The common man and This shows that they've just gone way off on their liberal. way of thinking and. It's not to set well with Their fans and they're going to lose even more people because. The only reason they're going towards all this stuff because the ratings are going down and they want to get more fans, but they're not gonna get any more just Gejerman. Let's talk about this for second because I I was on a program earlier today and you know somebody close to Nascar said. They thought this was going to be a really positive thing. I agree with you, not exactly in everything you said but I don't think it's really gonNA HELP NASCAR I don't think Nascar can be helped right now. I think it's A. And I'm not talking about the ratings. It has received the. When were no other sports? I'm talking about generally speaking I think the sport is in deep trouble I. Think this was something that they felt they had to do. I covered NASCAR many years ago and I found it to be the most segregated. Sport that I've ever been around. and I did a story about twenty years ago. Interviewing the head of NASCAR in many other people about the lack of the lack of people of color and they didn't care. Their audience was white Middle America. WHITE MIDDLE-CLASS SUTHERS! And they didn't. They didn't need to appeal to anyone other than that that core group. They've started. They started losing that group as you know when they tried to go mainstream. When they tried to go to Vegas in Chicago and New York and California. I mean NASCAR. has not done anything right. I don't think in the last twenty five years I i. do agree with this decision, but I don't think it's really gonNA. Help Sport. Yeah I think they do way better. If they went back to their way of doing things, they stayed more in the south as far as they went to. Some of these like Rockingham North Carolina the exact. Same well. I it's. It's a sport right now. I mean I I i. don't cover it anymore. I'm mildly interested in it, but I love the the when I covered it. I mean you had the allison gang. You had Richard Petty. You earnhardt coming along I. Mean it was a it was like wrestling. Everybody favorite driver. If you're a dale. Walter Fan, you hated the other guy. If you were earnhardt fan I, mean it. Didn't you know now to me? It's A. Very corporate sport I mean there's an occasionally interesting part of it, but but but I, am mentioned it hearing what what the core NASCAR fans thinks because. I mean when I heard overnight was. This is going to open the sport up too far more fans. I don't believe that you. Know 'cause most of the people I know this isn't GonNa. Make them any more interested than it was. A bunch of cars running in circles in I. Don't know I mean. I'm all all that. Other people speak, but. I I I maybe I'm judging too far in the past, but. I mean I can't imagine. Your people of Color. In the past having felt comfortable going to a NASCAR race. Yeah How would you feel? Yeah. Thanks for the call. I hope it I hope I hope it saves sports a great sport, but I think this was just something that had to do about the way that you said something a minute ago. I have never heard my entire life. The phrase Liberal Nascar in the same sentence. We will take a break mortem. More of your phone calls at eight, five, five, two, four to seventy eight five back after this. You're listening to the Paul. Finebaum show podcast welcome back great to have everyone here on a very busy Thursday afternoon. Willie is up next now. Willing. Thank you could after him April. I'm well Nice if you've got. Yeah last time I talked to follow. It's been years ago. We talked y'all talking about the. Things that we're having to Alabama with Kirby, go into Georgia and stuff like that. That was a long time ago, but right now. Just calling about this all the uproar going on about the confederate flag in the book burning is going on, and you know the tearing down the statues I don't agree with it. And before it gets out of out of control I'm I'm just declaring right now. My my name is Willie. Manning I live in Washington and I'm declaring that I don't I'm not for it? If I had to choose the side now it will be on the side of the Southern Gentleman That's that's that's. That's how it would break it down. That's why would go it. Because this the burn and he was with the cool heads and I don't see. Everything is an emotional on the other side and. When you start doing things like the doing. Renaming military bases. It's. It's a shame but so I'm declaring. Before so so that it'll be no before things get out of control. Who Sat on? Definitely not! It's an interesting conversation and I I. Mean I've seen this happen many times before I. I'm not I'm not wild about going back with you because it is a slippery slope willing for this reason. You could go. You could go through the Washington DC with every monument up and find a reason to take one down. Where will inflow? Yeah. It's A. Full for the game. This is a sports show so I make a sports for the love of the game. Begun to be cooler heads, because just like Michael Jordan was saying when he was a says something in India. He said you know Republicans. Be They buy tickets? The Basketball Games to. Southern We. I'm a southern. We we. We bought tickets to these games to just won't be the same if if if the spirit as Matt Fair, and and let's face it. There's no defense anymore in the NFL. When the scores seventy eighty, and then you've got? Broadway on the field, I don't WanNa see Broadway shows on the field after a touchdown with the choreography in in in in over a touchdown Ms. let's get serious. You know I I came up with the pros in touchdown, and it was a class act. But So, let's face it for the love of the game. Somebody's GonNa have cooler. His is too much emotion. Willie, thank you, thank you very much. Read is up next. tanks great to have you on. Hey, by. Well Man Back to the NASCAR topic and confederate flag I grow up. I still live here about thirty minutes away from out I guess speedway. make it a point to go the race at least once a year. They have to raise their year you brought up. The topic of you know how many people that are of African American. You know feel comfortable going to the race and I don't know if you've ever been to Talladega of the Infield to the camp ground. There's people of all races colors, and it's everything that happens. There is a good time. Nobody's really necessarily worried about race and I think that NASCAR pulling this start was more because they felt like they had to. Especially having A. Level Lawless. African Americans driver I'm actually a big fan of in the inner circuit I. Think it was just all more of a media stunt at anything else. and. I don't know what your take on that. I have been there many times. I agree and. I think I think I think. I think I. Think tracks have become more multi. Cultural in recent years. Than they were maybe in the sixties or seventies, but I think you're exactly right. one person really created this cause. And he did it very effective Lee at the right time, and by the way I mean I. I know what Nash Car said yesterday, but but in the aftermath of the. Tragedy in Charleston five years ago. They also said we don't want you to bring. Confederate flags attraction and didn't I. Don't think it affected one person. Right and I don't I. DON'T Know How A. Because I, mean like you said you've seen the campgrounds out. there. Yet are battling read. Are you going to sand? Are you going to have a an I. Don't mean this disparagingly toward I think. It's Talladega County, isn't it? Whatever the county is in. Over there. Are you going to send the? Are you going to a county sheriff to to to drag somebody's confederate flag on I? Think I think at a race. They probably have more important things to do. Right exactly and especially at. The some of the activities that go on out there, but out of the point that I was trying to get through. Really GonNa enforce that the campground you and I don't think you can Probably! Yeah exactly and I think you might. You might start with public drunkenness. Public Nudity all kinds of other things before the flag. And I you know I know a lot of the security? People worked out of data and I think they would decide that. They probably have better things to do. Then get into a brawl with with a bunch of people over a telling them to take their flag down now. It's a problem. It's an issue everywhere. I mean how many College Football Games have you been to? How many fraternity rose if you've been to where? The flag is is omnipresent. It's just a way of life and. Thanks for the call I man. Is Calling next good afternoon. Paul you know for the record I have had I haven't held a confederate flag in over forty five years and I'm sure your interview was bought the New York Times. I'm sure you're you're fair and reasonable with your callers, and you understand the motion, and who real people are and I think you probably very complimentary live most of. All your show because I think most of your show. If not all of it agree that something's got to be changed. Paul I won't turn back sometime. We you actually start covering sports in Birmingham for the Piper in the early eighties. Okay, so you were also hanging out with Jim Five and John for me foreign again and you're going to see you were going to bring you. You probably well aware of everything going on Birmingham. High School wise are somewhat so you? You kinda Nikolov athletes and coaches, and and and everybody in the town of sorted. And you got a better grasp on it. The longer you were there. When he was hanging out with John -fornia Jim Fife and doing radio show troop Did. Anybody ever mentioned that that outstanding athlete Jim from Tuscaloosa to you. I'm in. I'm pretty sure they did, but you know that's a long time ago, so it's obvious I just forgot. You forgot, but you remember my first call. You remember gyms for. Your first call was twenty years ago. This was. This was twenty years ago I. I don't know. Precisely I mean nobody ever mentioned if Jim was mentioned to you? Was it Kinda like this, and there's this winter like rover. There you. You'll know you'll know when you hear it. All have a great day. Thank you. Oh Man let's. Check in with mark next in New Orleans. Hey, mark great to have you on. AM. I'm well, thank you. Iowa listen yesterday you would call to. A call from California. Who Was Jewish? And at the end of the conversation you said to him well, I don't want condescending of sending. And say sell on to you. I just want to apologize to personally on. Because, I have called you. And I have. Ended with Salon. But I only meant that. If you, if you misunderstood what I know, well, let me let me stop you, Martin. I I was. I was kidding about that. In fact, I was I was trying to buy time. Because Shalom has two meanings as you know, and as several meetings. and. I was not. You cannot offend the I just want you I wanNA. Make that clear, okay? There's there's no way so I if somebody says something of of another language as long as I understand it, I'm great with so you have never offended me one time. Well I thought if I may have accidentally come across. As an hearing condescending, that's the last thing. No way in the world I wanted to do I would also. You know in this age of turmoil. I'm in New Orleans. I think the people in this city should look up. The history of a young sprinter named Herman new gas. Who refuse to go to the Olympics? As a spread on. Because, he was Jewish it opened up the slot for Jesse Owens on the four hundred relay, but he wouldn't go, because he said if I can't go and openly be a Jew anywhere. I'm not going to that place now that kid. He was twenty one. He exhibited more principle than ninety nine percent of the damned the world, but you know. His life began. Early on somewhere and he picked up principal and you know when we didn't go to the Olympics. the year the Russians invaded nine, hundred, ninety, nine, a Stan. That's right. He was standing right next to Jimmy Carter with the same reasoning. If this is not a free country, we'RE NOT GONNA go and I just wish people here in this city knew that that is a real hero for all America, but also from my own home town because we've got our problems here, too. We need like everybody else to find. People are principal and acknowledge them and get behind them and live. In a principled life so anyway, I just want to leave with that and I'm happy you want offended and I try to show as much as I can be. Thank you I. can't I appreciate it very much a great to have you on enjoyed it bye-bye. Break more on the confederate flag with someone who is very happy to see it go. We'll talk to Ryan McGee coming up here in just a moment. Listening to the Paul Finebaum show podcast. And we are back here on a Thursday afternoon lots to do. And since we started today, the big topic has been the announcement yesterday from Nascar that confederate flag needs to come down and quit. Flying Ryan McGee writing today. Under the heading the confederate flag is finally gone at Nascar Races and I won't miss it for a second Ryan joining us right now. Ryan thanks for the time great to have. been too long. Okay You've covered NASCAR for many many years, and it has a lot of issues. But in your in your column today you certainly talked about the discomfort. You often found and especially with friends of color in colleagues when you were at a race. Take us through your your your entire thought process. And what do you think at all means? Well I just if we're all means. I just today I never thought I would see. you know NASCAR's kind of halfheartedly. Taken, somewhat of a stance on this from time to time via the statement or be. After church shootings in Charleston several years ago. South Ghana. STATEHOUSE NASCAR was like well. If you bring a confederate flag to the souvenir tent will trade another flag for it, and now a lot of people did that was about as strong as I thought we'd ever see, but the leadership's different now and so you know. I, I know these people. I've known these people forever. You know I was on the payroll at Nascar in the two thousand and I know where the vast majority of these people's hearts line and I know the people in the garage and people on pit road and people who work at the racetracks and they're not. The people that. The rolling of the eyes that I received my entire life in is because of that confederate flag. It's misrepresentation. Of what the WHO the people are in that sport and I think it was a misrepresentation forty years ago, but I think he's certainly has been you know over the twenty five years that I've covered the sport and so I've seen it change, and this was Kinda, the last step to let everyone know for me, not have to apologize anymore, you know. Know, what do you think is like for me? Or for Brad Daugherty all-star that colognes and ask our team for bubble, Wallace, or for the family of Wendall Scott and all of our lives we were working at the racetrack, and we think it's been like for them, but also for me to have to every time I tried to explain none of them. It's not what you think it is, and they're more tolerant. You think they are in all. Anyone's ever had to do point at all the confederate flags. And so now they can't do that anymore, and then I'm all for it. I'M GONNA. Ask you explain something because we have a lot of people that are watching. Maybe listening from all over the country, and when they see a confederate flag. They. They see something that. Maybe you don't as southern I'm not trying to act like I'm not a southerner, but I'm not a southerner like you. Who had relatives? That were connected to or fought in the civil war. I mean that's all. I. Heard about it. Growing up and I really didn't care because it didn't involve me I. Mean we had enough problems getting over here to this country than worrying about what happened in the eighteen sixties, so tell me. You are you are a dyed-in-the-wool southerner? You're connected to this and you wrote about that today and explain first of all. What does that flag mean? My family has lived in. The eastern part of North Carolina. since the late sixteen hundreds early seventeen hundreds when we were first generation Americans and you know as I speak to you right now. I'm just some on the north. Carolina coast. Just south of Fort, Fisher which was kind of the last line of defense for the city of Wilmington during the federal block aid. In the winter of eighteen, sixty five that fort was overrun by Union forces and I had a great great uncle. And a gregory grandfather, who were taken prisoner war, put on the ship and taking Elmira New York, the Hell Morrow prison camp. And they fall underneath that flag, and when that war was over, they were shoved out the gate of that prison camp, and they walk six hundred miles from Elmira. New York Rockingham North Carolina. My I come a direct descendant of slave owners. So I sell this sale that had to say this. Don't anyone out there listening come at me with the heritage, not hate argument. Because I know exactly what that flag means and there is no one is going to come to me and argue with me. That has a deeper confederate DNA that I do. And the reality is I've spent my entire life. Trying to correct the mistakes of my forefathers, and we all have, and I would hope that if they were alive today and listen. They were buried in Carlos Creek North Carolina in the cemetery where I'll be buried, and there's an American flag over the gate of that cemetery, not the stars and bars, not the not the flag of the. None of that. The flag the United States of America and my hope is I never met them, but my hope is that when they died. They understood that they were on the wrong side of history, and so no one out there. All this listening to US watching that watches Martin McGee? This is tomorrow. McGee I don't want to hear anything from anyone about I. Don't understand. The difference between heritage in Hey, because the reality is that any last little bit of honor that was in the flag that might have been there after the civil war ended one hundred and fifty five years ago, any laugh, a little bit honor that was left with lost. When that flag was used over burning crosses flag was used to to lynch black. Americans flag was used. To keep little girls from going to school and desegregated school so I don't want to hear about what that flag is. We all know what it is. But I've heard it in my entire life. Without knowing what you know without having the experience you have had. Conversations with with people that. Talk about their own forefathers had a different view than you and you know what I'm talking about. And I would be lying if I said I haven't heard for some of my relatives. I wrote Dot Com. Tonight listen that debates never going to go away but I don't WanNa have to have that debate. While, I'm trying to enjoy the Daytona five hundred. If anyone wants to have that debate with me, you know what we'll go back to Memphis. We'll go back to your town and we will go to the greatest civil rights museum. and. It's right there. Rain Motel where Doctor Martin Luther King was assassinated and guess what they got plenty of confederate flags on display in that museum, and we can have that discussion all day long, but I don't have to have it anymore. A Martinsville Darlington for auto. The close speedway Pocono raceway now I can just cover the races and not apologize. To my colleagues of color for having to go cover that sport. Right, how do you think it's going to trickle down I? Mean we've we've seen some pockets of resistance already. We're only thirty. Forty one minutes into this show in a few people have already called in you. You've heard from many I'm sure today. Is it going to have any impact on the sport? Well the for the first race back with any fans going to be in a week from week and a half, and it's going to be the Talladega superspeedway, which is essentially an Anniston Alabama and I'll let everyone google. you know Aniston and the unfortunate history has had on in the civil rights fight and there's no. Thousand fans going to be allowed to buy tickets, so they're gonNA be spread out throughout the world's longest grandstands, which is what tally forty four RV's park on the backstretch. There's no question. that. They're going to be people who are GONNA take that? Ain't gonNA. Buy that ticket or park there RV and try to turn into some sort of stand. You know they're rebels right there. They love being called rebels, and so at the end of the day. If you tell a rebel not to do something where they don't do, they're going to rebel. It said they're certainly going to be a little bit of that but I can. Can Tell you firsthand. Having talked to her fficials, all the way to the top is that they're prepared for it, and they're ready for the fight and in the hope. Is that It doesn't last very long, but but we'll see. Let's say this, too. When I the first time I was since the right track with a credential as a member of the media. I went to the Darlington raceway in the mid nineties. and was an old man with a card table. Sit Right at the interest of the garage and he was selling confederate flags. Because, he knew that's where the fans would congregate to get a look at deller heart or whoever? And after a few years I got disappeared. And when I first started coming the Daytona five hundred, there would be hundreds of confederate flags. And, I kind of walked around casually back in February. The Best I could come up with was about fifteen. So that erosion was already taking place, and now Nascar is just making an official ban and They know they'll be a little spike. There's GonNa be there's GonNa be more their Daytona. Probably the next February than there was this past everywhere. But but in the end the racists are outnumbered, and they know it and one day. That's all going to go away. Ryan Gate Thank you Ryan preach coming on. Strong comments from Ryan we'll get your reaction to all of that. When we come back. You're listening to the Paul Finebaum show podcast. Though. We're apart these days. Sharing so at Geico we'd like to say thanks. Thanks for sharing your savage dance moves. Thanks for sharing your diy haircut fails. Thanks for sharing your inner lipstick star. Now it's our turn to share with the GEICO. Give back the fifteen percent credit on car and motorcycle policies for current and new customers, because we're committed for the long haul, the fifteen percent credit laster, full policy term visit Geico, dot com slash. Give back for more INFO and eligibility. The great thing about facts they're proven. Like the fact that crude oil contains impurities or their base oil made from natural gas is ninety nine point five percent free impurities. And the fact that pennzoil he's the person motor oil made from natural gas, not crude oil. It gives you on beatable engine protect. The proof is in the pennzoil. Based on sequence for where test using sap five W. thirty. We welcome you back great to have all of you here and Greg is next up. From Indianapolis Hello Greg Yes sir I've been wanting to talk to you for so long. I watch it every morning on ESPN. I'm going to talk about the racist stuff. That's why I told him. I talk about a another day I wanted to say Greg called me about Tom Brady because that's what I call it about. Okay. I just check this out I'll you're right down the street from the racetrack? And let me tell you. I am amassed. They had to get NASCAR because. It wouldn't no clouds no more. So, they had to bring somebody else in. And so they bought Nascar car, and they got all kinds of crazy stuff going at the racetrack right now just to keep it viable. I hate the race. I live if you've been in as you knew Mike's bar it. I'll you're right now is pretty for mice, bar and right up under the vied out. For you, go into the race track, so I'm telling you and I. Because the thing. I hate about it. Is I hate to no. I. Don't like to know where they men about the people. You Know I. Don't mind people enjoying yourself doing your little a. And and that's fine with me I agree with it. But you know if if it's never really been to me about. About everything but money. with with I am I will miss I. don't even think they wanted NASCAR, but they would lose money, so they had to get something else in. There got this big old racetrack and. So. They bought in I am I. Mean about in Nascar. which is I don't care. But. There's one to ask you Mr Fan but they on when you get a chance, just say Greg Call, me. 'cause I WANNA to tell you why why? Tom Brady is not go and and look up Scott Norwood. Why Tom Brady is not to go. Okay, I'll do. Hey, I I will do that. Greg we'll we go from Greg Greg. Greg in Athens Alabama. It's a Greg Square Day apparently Paul thank you for taking my call and. before I get at one talk to you about yesterday you got a lot of were taken to task by jumping because. You didn't know as much about John C. Calhoun as he wanted you to. And if he calls you back, you can tell him that. The United States Navy had a ballistic missile submarine. Named after John C Calhoun, that was an operation for thirty years. And There was a mixed crew on that boat. And I've got a friend who served on there and I don't know. Contact him and find out. What everybody thought about John C. Calhoun while they were serving on that boat. It'd be an interesting story I think. And, then you had a guy, yesterday talked about police and mental health in. you know when I went into the navy and volunteer for sub duty, you volunteer for sub do. They take you through a long battery of psychological tests, and you talk to therapists and all and. One Guy said I guess. They thought we were crazy for doing it, so they wanted to make sure that that was verified, but. but there's you know Military men and women who have to serve Especially when I serve in a combat situation, go through a lot of stress it. A lot of people never have to experience. and. Police officers have to do it every day and they are not a well respected in a lot of places and And some of that's because of what's going on and so and so imagine being a police officer one of these big cities. And your administration this supposed to allow you to do. Your job doesn't like to do your job and you also know that they don't have your back. That puts a lot of pressure on men and women who are tasked with. Being the symbol the line in our communities and I I don't think that has been discussed enough amongst the media and then. We'll be but. I just thought that he had some interesting points yesterday in. I think MAC from new. Orleans is probably your smartest New Orleans caller Paul. Yeah I was really a really enjoyed talking to him. Great to have you on. Thanks for sharing and we are. We will come back. We'll talk again. More of your phone calls today. Five five to four, two, seven, two, eight, five, hundred in the next segment. We're going to talk a little bit about College Football Cole Cubelic joining us. We'll get the latest on what's happening in Alabama another couple of Cova cases being reported back after this.

NASCAR Paul Finebaum Nascar Ryan McGee Alabama football ESPN Greg Greg New York Times Birmingham Larry Great Willie Ryan New Orleans confederate army Cole Cubelic Martin McGee Luna Bars Charleston
The congressman who shot a waiter

Retropod

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

The congressman who shot a waiter

"Retro pod is sponsored by Tito's vodka. Drink responsibly. Hey History Lovers Mike Rosenwasser with retro pod a show about the past rediscovered in the nineteen fifties. According to the master of all word uses the Oxford English dictionary a new words started to take hold in the English language HANGARY's. It's a combination of the words hungry and angry like so hungry that literally everything in the world makes you angry that word Henry Somewhat describes an incident that took place one hundred years before the word for the emotion even emerged it involves a congressman named Philemon Herbert a first term Democrat from California though he grew up one day eighteen fifty six herber. Uber decided to go to the Willard Hotel in Washington D._C.. For breakfast the late breakfast it was eleven A._M.. Herbert was starving so he ordered and then left to buy a couple of newspapers while he waited when he came back he found that he only been served part of what he had ordered. What was missing has lost a history but anyway he was told that because he had ordered so late the hotel office would have to approve serving a complete breakfast too bad all-day breakfast one thing yet in eighteen fifty six herbert was a muscular and intimidating guy and hunger seemed to push him over the edge? He started screaming swear words in slurs at the Irish waiter who served him Herbert then turned his wrath towards another waiter whose name was Thomas Keating name-calling quickly gave way to violence fish and plates flu blue finally Herbert Grab Keating by the collar produced a gun and shot him in the chest. Herbert fled back then it was normal for lawmakers. Acres to dual enbrel Herbert even continued serving in Congress as charges were pending but even so this incident was seen as over the line the New York Tribune declared quote. There is no excuse for the murder murder in the circumstances of the case. This was just before the start of the civil war intentions in the country were running high for many northerners the case of an Alabama born secessionist killing a working class Irishman Irishman confirm their fears about the violent behavior of southern slavery support. That's according to former Washington Post reporter Guy Hoogly Atta who wrote a book about Pre-civil War Washington the case went to trial and Washington District Attorney Phillip Barton Key the Son of Star spangled banner author Francis Scott Key was tasked with prosecuting Herbert. He was known for being friends with some of Washington's most avid secessionists. Oceanus the evidence was clear cut witnessed after witness described what had happened. He had accepted jury instructions written by the defense without objection and much of the jury Jerry was composed of members of an anti immigrant movement who were likely to excuse the murder of an Irish waiter so herbert was acquitted Herbert left town after his acquittal and went back to California where he did not run run for reelection. He wasn't exactly welcomed. Their a delegation of San Francisco residents confronted him at one of the city's hotels and demanded he depart the city Herbert was furious and unapologetic. He claimed he was being unfairly targeted for partisan purposes and not because he you know murdered a waiter over breakfast Herbert eventually left California for El Paso when the civil war broke out he enlisted in the confederate army and encountered a faux better equipped to defend itself than an unarmed waiter Herbert died in eighteen sixty four of wounds sustained in battle. I'm Mike Rosenfeld.

Philemon Herbert Herbert Grab Keating California Washington Willard Hotel murder Mike Rosenwasser Tito Mike Rosenfeld Irishman Irishman Washington Post Thomas Keating Francis Scott Key HANGARY New York Tribune confederate army Guy Hoogly Atta El Paso Henry
Fearless, Feisty and Unflagging: The Women of Gettysburg

Stuff You Missed in History Class

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

Fearless, Feisty and Unflagging: The Women of Gettysburg

"Support for Steffi missed in history class comes from our friends at rocket mortgage by quicken loans finding the right house is not easy but finding the right mortgage can be rocket mortgage is doing more to help you understand the home buying process so you can get exactly what you need because it's not just a mortgage. It's your mortgage and they've found a better way. They make the home buying process work for you. In fact rocket mortgage is there with award-winning client service and support every step of the way visit rocket mortgage dot com slash history sorry class and take the first step toward the home of your dreams equal housing lender licensed in all fifty states nmlsconsumeraccess.org number thirty thirty rocket mortgage by quicken loans push-button. Get mortgage welcome to stuff you missed in history class a production of iheartradio's. How stuff works hello and welcome to the PODCAST? I'm Tracy Wilson and I'm holly FRY. Hey this is our show from recent live appearance in Gettysburg Pennsylvania sort of we did record that show but as we always worn might be the case yes minor technical difficulties the recording yeah we had some technical difficulties we were there as part of an event called great conversations that Gettysburg this was a whole full day of programming that was sponsored by the Gettysburg Foundation. We had a great time but recording an outdoor event is always he's kind of challenge this time we had our a rain delay followed by very breezy weather and <hes> just surprising number of motorcycle interruptions yeah and as we were outdoors all of those things conspire to make kind a slushy sound call so we are going to have a studio version of this show rather than the live recording also. We didn't call it this because folks just walking through Gettysburg wouldn't necessarily know what six impossible episodes means but this is basically a six impossible episodes edition of the show. It's just focused on Gettysburg's ladies Yes yes for this live podcast. We wanted to focus on women and the battle of Gettysburg and there are just so many to choose from some of the people we are going to talk about where local to Gettysburg some were connected to the army's in some way in some arrived after the battle was actually over. We just picked a few favorites. If we don't have your favorite it's not because because that person was not any good just that you know we we had a select feta cheese for this time. Also this is not remotely all the women who were there and we're going to be focused. Mostly on the women's connections to Gettysburg into the battle itself is this is not going to be a full biography of all the women that we are going to talk about but we will jump in and I we will talk about Marie Teppei known as fearless French. Mary who became quite a recognizable character during the civil war she was born. Marie Blues Probably Blessed France and she eventually immigrated to the United States and once she got here she married Bernard Teppei who was a tailor in Philadelphia in June of eighteen sixty one Bernard joined the twenty seven th Pennsylvania Nya infantry and he really wanted to stay behind and mind their tailor shop. She wanted to go with him though so she became vivant gear which is a French term for uniformed women who traveled with the army's to kind of bolster the troops morale a lot of times they they act as merchants and sold things like food and tobacco Americans learned about Devante during the Crimean war and during the civil war there were women in this role on both sides of the fighting Marie bought things like whiskey Food Tobacco Co and various necessities to them sell to the soldiers she carried her whiskey in a small keg and she filled that keg with water when she couldn't get whiskey and sold water instead and she fought when she had to and she also helped care for the wounded she was paid a soldier salary plus and extra twenty five cents a day if she was doing hospital work at some point Marie left the twenty-seventh Pennsylvania Inventory and Bernard Tepi the story as reported by other people was that several soldiers one of them being her husband broke into her tent and stole sixteen hundred dollars from her. It is always tricky to try to convert a currency for that long ago to today's dollars but that was a huge amount of money. It'd be a huge amount of money today if someone stole that from me so at that time that was a fortune well it even if you like her husband had just broken in and stolen a twenty. That's still are cool. Yeah theft is theft but it really was quite a large sum but but she did not stay gone from the picture for long Irish Immigrant Charles H. T. colace had previously served in the eighteen th Pennsylvania Infantry Regiment and after his enlistment was over he decided to start his own volunteer unit and he wanted to style this a unit after the French Light Infantry troops known as the Suave patterning the uniforms after their colorful pants jackets and turbans at first he had a small group known as the swamp death leak or calluses suave they eventually became the one hundred fourteenth Pennsylvania volunteer infantry as had been the case with vivant dear Americans I experienced to this was during the Crimean war and there was waft style units on both sides of the civil war just to be clear although the earliest French Suave troops were from northern Africa eventually these units associated with the French army were made up of Europeans and those wave units in the civil war even though they might have some not to the idea of Africa they were made up of white troops collis wanted his unit to have a air either he recruited Marie or she simply heard about what he was doing and volunteer to join she once again sold provision cooked and cared for the wounded she also delivered water and supplies to the front lines and doing that she actually took a bullet in the ankle at Fredericksburg see was recovered enough to carry water to the troops that chancellor spill and there she was under so much heavy fire that people described her skirts being riddled with bullet holes calls. She was awarded the Cross for Valor on May sixteenth of eighteen sixty three but she refused to wear it. She said she did not WANNA present. By the battle of Gettysburg Marie was a recognizable figure for much of the Union army in the area she had also. I started carrying a red white and blue care. After her first keg was shattered by a bullet she was there during the battle and she came through all of that unharmed although it does not appear that she left when the soldiers left there's actually a picture of her standing on Cemetery Hill in Gettysburg taking some time afterward and it's possible that she stayed behind to help care for the wounded and then she joined back up with her unit leader. After the war she married Corporal Richard Leonard and she was photographed with her keg at a reunion 1893 eventually she and Richard divorced and she died of an apparent suicide in nineteen at one before we move on we should really note that although Murray was in combat at various times and she was paid a soldier salary she was not actually there as a soldier but there were female soldiers at Gettysburg there were women lake. Mary sees goal who disguised herself as a man so that she could fight alongside her husband and there are other people who stories and identities are less clear people who were found to have female anatomy after being injured injured or killed in combat there are at least five documented including sees goal to for the Union side and three for the confederacy although it is possible that there were many more who went unnoticed in undocumented next we'll have somebody who will be familiar to people who've seen the women's Memorial Matt Gettysburg and that's Elizabeth Thorne. She was born in Germany as Elizabeth Catherine Massar and then after emigrating to the United States she married John Peter Thorne who went by Peter They had three sons before the civil war started and then Peter joined the army in August of eighteen sixty two peter was the caretaker of Evergreen cemetery and the family lived the cemetery's arch-shaped Gatehouse which still stands today when Peter joined the Army Elizabeth took over for him as caretaker wow also taking care of their children and win the battle of Gettysburg began. She was also about six months pregnant six months pregnant and taking care of three little boys and acting as the caretaker of the cemetery. When the confederate army started to arrive in Gettysburg at the end of June they requisitioned food from the Thorn household and then when the federal army arrived a few days later Elizabeth helped General Oliver Otis Howard get the lay of land? She's sort of sodium showed them which roads went where and what some of the local back ways where that the confederacy might not know about she also provided dinner for some of the officers although by that point she really did not have much left as thanks though some Otis's men helped her move move some of the families valuables down into the cellar for safekeeping and they also told her that if she were ordered to leave the area she should do so immediately and that cemetery was part of Cemetery Hill which became an active battlefield on July. I second the family was ordered to evacuate. Although Elizabeth came back during the night check on things and she found that the families hogs had been killed and that the gate house was full of wounded soldiers she left again to try to find food and shelter and this time she stayed away until July seventh once the family got back they found that their home had just been ransacked including what they had moved into the cellar. Amputations have been performed on their beds so they're feather beds and bedding almost beyond repair it took her in three women days of washing to fix them and that was after they I repaired the pump and some of what they had was really just beyond repair there were also dead bodies awaiting burial outside along with the bodies of horses that had been killed in the battle but Elizabeth Thorne is most well known for what happened after all of that she had run into the president of the cemetery on her way home and he told her that there was more work waiting for her than she could possibly do in her own account in the days. After the battle she wrote quote. I got a note from the president of the cemetery and he said Mrs Thorn it is made out that we will bury the soldiers in our cemetery for a while so you go for that piece of ground and commenced sticking off lots and graves as fast as you can make them mm-hmm will you may know how I felt my husband in the army my father and aged man yet for all the foul air we to start it in I stuck off the graves and while my father finished one I had another one started they did this and just just terrible heat and filth and stench because this was July and some of these bodies had been decaying for days later on she had some friends who helped but both of them became very ill and had to leave a lot of people noted that the the men who came to help her got too sick to continue on and she was out there pregnant carrying on with it. These burials went on for weeks. She buried thirteen bodies on August eleventh which was more than a month after the battle they were still burying the dead up until Gettysburg. Berg National Cemetery opened in October that was formerly dedicated in November but at that point a lot of bodies had already been buried or reburied there. Some of the bodies buried in Evergreen were ultimately moved to the national cemetery in the end Elizabeth buried one hundred and five people with very little help ninety one of those were soldiers and fourteen were civilians. She wasn't compensated for the additional labor or for the loss of her property or the cost of cleaning and repairing the gatehouse was also a tiny me tiny fraction of the work that needs to be done Gettysburg itself had a population of about twenty one hundred people but about eleven thousand people died as a result of the battle about seven thousand died of their wounds immediately and the rest followed and the days and weeks afterward Elizabeth's daughter Rosemead Thorne was born the September after the battle and her middle name was named after General George Meade who had commanded the army of the Potomac at Gettysburg Peter Thorne returned from the war in eighteen sixty five and he and Elizabeth both died in one thousand nine hundred seven and two thousand to the Gettysburg Women's civil war memorial was unveiled it depicts Elizabeth Thorne clearly exhausted and pregnant with a shovel and although she is the woman who is depicted in this memorial oriole it is a memorial to all the women and now we're going to take a quick break and have a little word from one of the sponsors to keep stuff you missed in history class going geico presents eyewitness interviews with inanimate objects. This is Brian Bruno live on the scene scene of a recent windstorm here to describe the event a chest of drawers. There's a storm howling outside so I thought I'd stay in and watch a ROM COM five minutes into the flick. A Tree Branch slams through the window. Where are you hurt? I just got a scratch on my chest. Your chest of drawers can't help you in a windstorm but the GEICO insurance agency can help you get covered for personal property damage. Call Gyco to see how affordable homeowners insurance can be. So we talked just before the break about how the number of people killed in battle at Gettysburg was more than five times greater than Gettysburg's population of people living there and the gap between the towns population and the number of wounded was even Greater Raider between twenty thousand and thirty thousand people were wounded. Most of them stayed in Gettysburg for at least some time after the battle and our next subject is an example of how long this situation remained really critical the active fighting the battle of Gettysburg took place between July first and third EUPHEMIA. Mary Goldsboro arrived around July twelfth by that point. There was still a lot of work to do. Goldsboro was a nurse and one of many women from both sides of the war who who went to Gettysburg during the battles aftermath to try to care for the injured and dying soldiers Goldsboro who was known as F.. E. was one of many confederate supporters living in Baltimore Maryland she and other women there had been preparing for the fighting to come to them. So when Gettysburg ended in a union victory and tremendous casualty numbers they traveled from Baltimore to assist when they arrived in Gettysburg editions were just really dire nearly all of the doctors and the surgeons had left with their respective armies so the very few who were left behind were so overwhelmed that they could really only focus on the most urgent needs Pennsylvania Hall at Gettysburg College was being used as a hospital for wounded from both sides and that is where Goldsboro borough started working when she arrived here is how an unknown confederate soldier described the conditions there quote unless it was a case of amputation needed immediately or the stopping of hemorrhage. They had not time to attend to anyone thus us for the first two weeks there were no nurses no medicines no kinds of food proper for men in our condition and for men who were reduced to mere skeletons from severe wounds and loss of blood the floor was a hard bed with only a blanket on it. Eventually Goldsboro Goldsboro was assigned to Camp Letterman which was a hospital camp set up near the battlefield Goldsboro was in charge of a word with one hundred patients fifty from each side and the words of that same confederate soldier quote Miss Goldsboro recognized the importance of showing no partiality reality and many of both armies owed their lives to her good nursing commonsense and justice while she gladly forgot party spirit of the time and saw the necessity of sacrificing herself to the good of the southern wounded dying soldiers of the confederate army she remained to their nine weeks working incessantly forgetting the world and self living only to comfort and support the suffering and dying one of the men that she tried to save was Lieutenant Colonel Waller as well patent of Virginia who had been shot through the lungs and his condition had reached a point that needs to be propped up to be able to breathe but there was just nothing there available for him to be propped up on and so- Goldsboro offered herself sitting on the floor and letting them secure him to her back so they were basically back to back and she was kind of forming a chair for him. Although she sat there overnight without moving his condition was to grave and he died on July twenty first although she cared for men without regard to what side they had been on her work was not entirely above board. She knew that the surviving confederate soldiers were going to be transferred to prisons once they were well enough and she thought they should have proper clothes and boots when they went but it was against the rules to give them these things probably because of the risk that they might try to escape if they had them so Russia came up with an excuse to go into town and she came back with clothes and boots secured up underneath her hoop skirt hoping that they wouldn't bank together or fall out when she made her way past the Union guards this worked Goldsboro left Gettysburg after about nine weeks shortly after the death of Texas soldier named Samuel Watson who she seems based on her diary to have really become quite attached to she returned helmet first her family hardly knew her because she was so frail and exhausted but eventually eventually she recovered and she started smuggling again this time to try to get things like male clothes and supplies to imprison confederate men she was also a courier and a spy and she used a lap desk with hidden compartments to smuggle dispatches catches. She was ultimately caught while trying to help a prisoner escape and her quote treasonable plans and letters and traitorous poetry were confiscated. She was sentenced to banishment for the duration of the war by coincidence. She was sent to Virginia on the same vote as Belle Boyd previous hosts of the podcast done an episode on she apparently did not like bellboy. I'm very curious about what the situation was there but I did not look into it. She referred to Boyd as quote that Horrid woman assigned aside from demonstrating how Gettysburg's aftermath stretched on after the battle Goldsboro story also illustrates how a lot of women put aside their political leanings to care for the sick injured and dying Goldsboro. Let's be clear was a staunch supporter under of the confederacy but at the battlefields hospital she gave compassionate care to anyone who needed it. No matter what side of the battle they had fought on outside of the medical community there this definitely was not the case for Olive Gettysburg civilian population a lot of them refuse to harbor or assist confederate sympathizers including refusing to let sympathetic nurses bored with them and Goldsboro and other confederate supporters reviewed with very understandable suspicion within their medical work as well that same unknown one soldier who's account we were reading from earlier reported that the reason her ward was half and half federal and confederate troops was just to make sure she didn't do anything treasonous. The next woman we are going to talk about is Margaret Divet. You'll also see that spelled debit or sometimes even with an as Davits and she was also known as mag poem she was part of Gettysburg's black community. There were people of African descent in Gettysburg for almost as long as there were Europeans some of the first Europeans to settle in the area brought enslaved Africans with them before that point the area had been hunting ground and a travel route for the native peoples in the area but what is now Gettysburg does not appear to have ever been home to a permanent indigenous settlement of course there is a whole history there that is outside of the scope of what we were talking about in this particular podcasts Pennsylvania passed an act for the gradual abolition of slavery in seventeen eighty by the civil war Gettysburg's black community was free and numbered close to two hundred people or not quite ten percent of the population. Elation Gettysburg had a school for Black Children an African Methodist Episcopal Church because of its proximity to the Mason Dixon Line Gettysburg was home to a lot of underground railroad activity about a third of its black residents in eighteen sixty had been liberated or had liberated themselves from Maryland or Virginia but it was also an incredibly dangerous place to be as a black person being so close to slave territory was a constant risk especially in the light of fugitive negative slave laws that encourage the capturing of people and taking them into slave territory regardless of whether they had been previously enslaved or not so Margaret Palm who had been born Margaret divet or maybe Davut had direct experience with these he's dangerous she had been the target of an attempted capture herself her employer's son David Schick described it this way quote on this occasion. She was attacked by a group of men who made the attempts to kidnap her and take her south where they expected to sell her and derive quite a prophet she was a powerful woman and they would have from the sale derived quite a profit. These men's succeeded in tying mags hands. She was fighting them as best she could with her hands tied she would attempt to slow them and succeeded in one instance in catching and attackers thumb in her mouth and bit the thumb off <hes> when we did this as our live show there was definitely some <hes> cheers of support for MAG at this moment rightly so in eighteen sixty three poem was about twenty seven years old and she had at at least one child and she was living with a man named Alf Palm. They were tenants on the land of Abraham Brian a free black man who had lived in the area for about twenty years Although a census taker listed her occupation as mistress harlot it appears that she actually had a job working cleaning and doing laundry it appears that the census taker listed that as her occupation because she and Alfred not married at the time the I have some words for that census taker the confederate army approached Gettysburg many of its black residents fled they knew that if they stayed they were likely to be captured and enslaved that had happened and lots of other towns that the army had moved through as they made their way into union territory but leaving was really also a risk people would be leaving their jobs behind as well they would have to go without income for an unknown amount of time until the danger had passed they would also be leaving behind personal possessions which were really likely to be taken damaged or destroyed so Margaret was one of the people who stayed to act as a lookout and worn the black community when they really could not wait any longer to go and with her warning many of Gettysburg's black residents did successfully evacuate before the battle began some that could not or did not leave sheltered by their white employers or other friends but this did not always totally work out <hes> there is at least one account of two black women who were sheltered in the cellar but then when confederate officers commandeered that home those women were forced to come out and cook and care for them at the same time an unknown number of Gettysburg's black residents were captured by the confederates and marched out of town the House that Margaret and Alpha renting was largely destroyed in the battle well a lot of the fighting at Gettysburg was very urban but she and her family survived her life. After the war was a lot like it had been before she continued to make a living by cleaning doing laundry and working as a porter she another black women also retrieved uniforms from MHM soldiers who had been wounded or killed they cleaned these uniforms repaired them and sent them back to the Union army to Reuse Margaret Palm eventually saved up enough money to buy property of her own and she also became known as an eccentric character around town nicknamed Mag bag palm at this point and they were embellished stories recounting her daring do before and during the battle in her adventures afterward often these were reported in newspapers but in those accounts her speech was rendered as the sort of imagined engined dialect of enslaved people living on plantations in the south just not how she spoke right and it was very similar to our previous episode about the Ain't I a woman speech and how it would just sort of a made up imagined wave of talking we don't entirely know how she felt about becoming this kind of local celebrity but she definitely did not appreciate how other people kind of took her story over for themselves and turned her into a caricature. She took care to tell her friends and her family about what she had done. In her own words she also had a picture of herself taken later on pose to show the way that her assailant said tried to bind her hands decades later her great great granddaughter Catherine Carter Related These families stories to you. Another woman named Margaret Margaret Crichton author of the colors of courage Gettysburg's forgotten history especially talked about her fighting back against those attempted captors almost thirty years after poems 1896 Death Elsie Master published a boy at Gettysburg which used palm as the inspiration for the character Maggie Blue Coat and that fictional character was a conductor on the underground railroad and Warren Officers Jacket from the war of eighteen twelve thus her blue coat nickname mm-hmm it is possible that the real Margaret was involved with the underground railroad and with Gettysburg slave refuge society which was founded by the African Methodist Episcopal Church but in some accounts her real story has been really conflated and confused with at this fictional character. If she was involved with the underground railroad she probably would have been a lot more secretive about it than the fictional character of Maggie blue coat. We should also note that Gettysburg was permanently altered for black community after the battle was over a a lot of the people who fled never returned most of the ones who did come back where people who had property to come back to you a lot of that property had been seriously damaged or destroyed in the fighting in the fall of eighteen sixty three there were only sixty four black residents listed on the city's tax throw which was a much smaller number than before the battle although the abolition of slavery made Gettysburg much less dangerous place to live from that perspective it really became more of a stopping point than a destination as free people moved north after the war four and we're GONNA pause once again for little sponsor break but we take a break and then we will come right back with more of Gettysburg's women he listeners. I am so excited to talk to you about a new podcast called ephemeral because during our stint on the planet humans have made a lot of stuff and some becomes treasured and some of it is junk and some just kind of gets forgotten about but we really need to look at how we value the things that we create and what deserves. Maybe one more look before it vanishes into the past. These are the questions and ideas that underpin this new podcast ephemeral host Alex Williams guides you through a wasteland of things that were just barely saved but in some cases not saved at all it's part history podcast part sound collage but ephemeral features interviews with Historians Collectors Authors and Alex's Dad is even interviewed at one point episodes tend to piece together stories that are lost three time like missing chapter of American music history or a decade's worth of original television that was broadcast podcast only once and a mystery caught on tape that seemed completely unsolvable. We are lucky enough to work with Alex and I just adore him and I'm so excited about his show. Listen to it on apple podcasts the iheartradio APP or wherever you listen to podcasts and learn more four at ephemeral dot show Matilda Pierce known as tilly was an ordinary but pretty well off civilian from Gettysburg. She was fifteen in July eighteen sixty three when the battle happened in eighteen eighty five she published Gettysburg or what a girl saw and heard of the battle which was her first person account. tilley was the youngest of four children and Dan she was at school at the young lady seminary at the Gettysburg Female Institute on June twenty-sixth when they first heard that the confederate army was approaching their teacher told them all to run home as fast as they could although she was sure that some of them couldn't have made did before the troops arrived her book gives a day by day accounting of the battle it first tones pretty excited. She attacks about the insults and indignities of the confederate army taking her horse she also talks about their appearance and behavior which he finds to be pretty raggedy and rude but apart from that she sounds pretty upbeat but when the actual fighting begins things quickly become frightening she describes a neighbor passing by on the way to Jacob Kurz farm south of town down and asking for tilly to come along thinking that she was going to be safer there and at first this seemed like a perfectly good plan but as the battle shifted it turned out to not be true at all the farm was not far from little round top and that was the site of active fighting she describes the House and Barn becoming a Field Hospital for Union soldiers and treating at least one hundred men until his words quote the number of wounded brought to the place was indeed appalling. They relate in different parts of the house. The Orchard Richard and space around the buildings were covered with the shattered and dying and the barn became more and more crowded the scene had become terrible beyond description. This becomes one of those really unique insights into what the mindset of someone is like going through trauma Tracy mentioned just a little bit ago that her accounts before things released started getting heated where almost kind of excited and then in the early part of the fighting tilly was terrified and describes herself as weeping and fear but by the third day she writes quote amputating benches had been emplaced about the house. I must have become inured to seeing the terrors of battle else I could hardly have gazed upon the scenes now presented her account also mentions the death of Mary Virginia Wade known as Jenny. Here's the only civilian known to have been killed old directly in the fighting. There were other civilians who died as a result of the battle as well including at least one who gave birth and wasn't able to get the necessary medical attention. Jenny was at the home of her sister George McClellan who had also given birth it just hours before the battle started the McClellan home was directly in the line of fire between the two armies Jenny was kneading dough to make bread for the Union soldiers and she was struck by a stray bullet and killed on the morning of July third tilly he also writes about the conditions after the battle as she was returning home quote as it was impossible to travel the roads on account of the mud we took to the fields while passing along the stench arising from the fields of carnage was most sickening dead horses horses swollen to almost twice their natural size lay in all directions stains of blood frequently met our gaze and all kinds of army accoutrements covered the ground fences had disappeared some buildings were gone others ruined the whole whole landscape had been changed and I felt as though we were gonNA strange and bladed land are killed and wounded had by this time been nearly all carried from the field with such surroundings. I made my journey homeward. After the battle once the battle was over till really helped care for the wounded including several union soldiers who were cared for in her own family home and our book concludes with her adult self looking back on what had happened when she was a teenager and Gettysburg's recovery decades later her tone is pretty optimistic. Nick quote years have come and gone since the happening of the events narrated in the preceding chapters but there is indelibly stamped upon my memory is when passing before me an actual reality the carnage and desolation the joys and sorrows there in depicted have all long since passed away instead of the clashing tumult of battle the groans of the wounded and dying the mangled corpses the shattered cannon the lifeless charger in the confusion of armies and accrue Germont a new era of joy and prosperity harmony and unity prevails after the the war tilly grew up married had children and lived her life before dying on March Fifteenth Nineteen Fourteen hers is one of a lot of eyewitness accounts of Gettysburg including letters journals and published books but it is also a unique perspective active because it is from a civilian who was a fifteen year old girl at the time of the battle and that brings us to our last women to talk about today. tillie pierce was an ordinary girl whose name we remembered at eight because she published her experiences in a book but so many any other women and girls had very similar experiences in eighteen sixty three but there's were unrecorded and consequently on remembered so you've probably heard the phrase well behaved women seldom make history most of the time people interpret this kind of a rallying cry by celebrating the so-called. Ill behaved women who broke new ground and made strides in a way that changed the world in defiance of how society thought they should act a lot of times. It's kind of make some noise and go make history but that quote didn't come from Eleanor Roosevelt or Marilyn Monroe or any of the other historically famous women that it's generally attributed to it was first published in Nineteen seventy-six Paper in American quarterly by Laurel Thatcher rich at the time she was studying at the University of New Hampshire and. In our intent was very different from the way that people usually use that quote today it was more about all the ordinary women who lived and worked and made a difference in their world but are not included in history books because their lives were quiet and pious. The full all sentenced from that paper is well behaved. Women Seldom make history against Antonio Means and witches these pious matrons have had little chance at all all rich eventually wrote a book exploring how this quote has spread and evolved and what it means for a woman to actually make history so Gettysburg was just full of pious matrons and other dutiful women and girls most of the men who were able to fight were away fighting so the people left behind were mostly women children elders and people with illnesses or disabilities so ordinary women who lived in Gettysburg were the ones cooking for soldiers and tending the wounded and otherwise being part of the battle but not necessarily with the excitement or flare or personality that would make them memorable to history those who couldn't or didn't I believe ahead of the fighting found themselves in the middle of an active battlefield and this was of course terrifying with many women's journals and letters describing hearing soldiers in their houses above them while they hit in their cellars and not knowing if those soldiers were friends or enemies as they went through all kinds of hardships going without food after the army's requisition everything they had or having their homes used a sniper posts which drew enemy fire they also endured the battles horrifying aftermath with the unburied bodies of people and animals creating a stench so strong that they had to go around with handkerchiefs that were soaked in peppermint or penny royal holding those over their noses and mouths this lasted for months pretty much until the weather got cold in the late fall and winter they turned earned homes and barns and outbuildings into temporary hospitals and helped care for the wounded they cleaned and repaired and dug graves in sweltering heat and torrential rainstorms and often without enough food or clean beds to sleep in the railroads woods and telegraphs were destroyed so they did all of this without really being able to communicate with the rest of the world and they also gave shelter to people who traveled to Gettysburg looking for friends and family members who then became part of the recovery effort as well and we also cannot do not forget the women who had made Gettysburg their home but then had to make the choice between leaving it behind or risking being enslaved so we named this episode fearless Feisty and unflagging the women of Gettysburg but a whole lot of women who were part of the battle of Gettysburg history weren't necessarily any of those things there were so many ordinary women who were scared and exhausted or we're just doing their best and an unimaginably horrifying situation but their lives and their contributions still I'll have value and they should not be forgotten before we move onto some listener mail. Since this was a live show we just want to thank all the people involved with it so thanks so much to the Gettysburg Foundation and especially events coordinator Bethany any yuengling for all of their help leading up to and during the show and for inviting us in the first place thanks also to Chris Gwynn from the Gettysburg National Military Park for leading us on a tour of the battlefield while we were there that was great and thank thank you so much to everyone who came out and bore with us through the weather. We were getting ready. We were doing our final. Go over of all of our notes having some water getting ready to go out there and holly. He walked into the kitchen. They had they had put us up in a cottage right there. At the at the venue holly walked into the kitchen and Kinda went. WHOA whoa what I'll listen? It's dark outside and it turned out. There was a severe ear thunderstorm warning including the potential for a half dollar sized hail so thanks to everybody who didn't just immediately go home and stay away. Yeah I peeked out the window. I could see people running from the tent. They <hes> they just postponed innings. They handled the whole thing. So beautifully of just kind of <hes> had a delay forbid. We started about twenty minutes late. After things had passed over. Thankfully it was quick <hes> but yeah everyone stuck it out and I was so so so thankful for all of the listeners that came out said hello <hes> that was a really spectacular of him. I had a fantastic time be to a now. I have listener mail. This is from Ursula Ursula says hi Holly and Tracy I listened to your Winnipeg strike episode and loved it. I am from Winnipeg and I never knew just how big the strike was until this year when the city started installing historic exhibits throughout downtown the Manitoba Museum has an early nineteen hundreds recreated town inside the museum. It's a fairly large gallery complete with homes businesses and even a movie theater that you can enter some buildings or even two stories that was my favorite part of the museum as a child and at twenty two it's still is the museum recently gave a massive nine thousand nine hundred nineteen strike update to the town though I must say that my experience with the exhibit was made so much better by a small group of relatives of strikers who were also there that day they were passing on the personal experiences of their relatives walking through was really walking through a giant memory lane. It wasn't an event put on the museum. I just lucked out that day. It was a really special sweet. Thank you for all the effort fun and passionate you put into the show I love it dearly Ursula. Thank you so much for this email Ursula <hes>. We have gotten several notes from folks about that about that episode. That folks seemed to have really enjoyed so I'm glad I stuck with it. Even though I felt like we were having a little heavy dose of one thousand nine hundred ninety earlier this this year if you would like to write to us about this podcast word history podcasts at how stuff works dot com all over social media at missed in history. That's where you'll find our facebook pinterest instagram and twitter you can come to our website at missed in history dot com find show show notes for all the episodes that have done together and searchable archive of everything ever and you can subscribe to our show on Apple podcasts iheartradio APP and anywhere else podcasts stuffy mystery classes a production of iheartradio's. How stuff works for more podcasts iheartradio visit the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows hey listeners? I want to tell you about a podcast called creature feature creature feature is a comedy podcast all about exploring the hilarious wacky downright weird world of human and animal behavior season two of.

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Last Year's Lesson: Sherman's March to the Sea - Nov. 15, 1864

This Day in History Class

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

Last Year's Lesson: Sherman's March to the Sea - Nov. 15, 1864

"Before the show I have to share the huge savings happening right now at mattress firm. Get King Bet for a Queen Price. Plus a free adjustable base with your qualifying. Purchase the shop now and save up to six hundred dollars on the bed of your dreams. Hey history fans here's a rerun for today brought to you by Tracey. V will thin often. We hope it makes previous episodes for this date. Easier to find in the feed. Welcome to this day in history class from how stuff works dot com and from the desk. Ask of stuff. You missed in history class. It's the show where we explore the past one day at a time with a quick look at what happened today in history. Hello and welcome to the PODCAST. I'm Tracy B Wilson and it's November Fifteenth Major. General William tecumseh Sherman's March reached to the sea began on this day in eighteen. Sixty four. This happened during the US civil war. And it's more formerly known as the Georgia and Carolinas campaign. The Union army had captured Atlanta and September and had removed civilian population with the intent of keeping Atlanta is a strictly military base. It had also destroyed factories and railroads and buildings basically anything that might be useful to the confederacy. Many homes in Atlanta were also burned although it wasn't the wholesale destruction of the entire city as it's often popularly imagined the march from Atlanta Santa started on November fifteenth and Sherman's force was divided into two approximately equal wings. They continued southeast toward Savannah. Manna Georgia where they would arrive. On December twenty second this was not a straight unbroken line the two wings progressed in four columns uh-huh with the right wing shifting south toward Macon Georgia and the left wing shifting North Toward Augusta Georgia. This was to make it seem as though maybe those Cities where the real objective but both columns shifted once again and bypassed both cities this March was incredibly destructive. The the intent was to rob the confederacy of anything. That could possibly make use of and to terrify the civilian population and try to encourage a faster southern surrender so the Union army took anything that was edible or valuable from plantations and from farms that they passed Sherman. Sherman had promised to make Georgia howl so they burned out buildings and farms and sometimes homes. They kept destroying railroads and and Cutting Telegraph lines and burning stores and supplies. They were as they went. Also emancipating people who were enslaved on these properties so so in theory this destruction and it was definitely destructive was supposed to have some limits. Sherman gave orders not to enter people's homes uh-huh and when seizing livestock. They were supposed to focus on things. They were owned by rich people rather than what was owned by the poor people. who weren't resisting supposed the post to be left alone as much as possible? The intent after all was to deprive the confederacy of anything that could be useful and terrify people into surrendering. It wasn't to punish the poorest civilians and the free people who really had nothing else but in practice these orders that were supposed hostess sort of temper. This whole process were often not followed at all. Soldiers carried away as much as they could and destroyed what they couldn't and a lot of people who were left often. The path of all of this destruction were women and children because a lot of the men were away fighting. This also meant that the people they were liberating from enslavement were liberated now but they were left with nothing to support themselves no way even necessarily to have shelter food and Sherman in his army armie. We're taking no responsibility for them or for making sure that they were going to be able to survive. Once they had moved on the two wings of Sherman's March I reconnected in December. They took fort mcallister before bombarding city of Savannah and then after capturing Savannah Sherman sent this telegram his His Excellency President Lincoln I beg to present you as a Christmas gift. The city of Savannah with a hundred and fifty heavy guns and plenty of ammunition and also about about twenty five thousand bales of cotton W T Sherman Major General the destruction all of this was massive. The Union army lost lost fewer than two thousand of the sixty thousand men that it left Atlanta with over this more than a month of the campaign and it was also disastrous for southern morale L.. As it was intended to be especially for the civilians who had thought that the confederate army would protect them and instead had no protection. Sherman estimated rated the march through Georgia caused about one hundred million dollars worth of destruction and then the following year. They turned north toward the Carolinas. And that that March probably also did an equal amount of damage through the Carolinas. After the war Sherman's March became part of the lost cause propaganda that reframed the confederacies role in the war as a noble and heroic but doomed struggle to preserve a genteel way of life in even appeared in the Nineteen fifteen birth of a nation and then was later part of Nazi propaganda. Thanks to crisscross Yoda's for his research work on today's podcast and thanks to Casey Karuma Chandler maze for their audio work on the show. You can subscribe to the stay in history class at apple podcast Google podcast and railroad to get your podcast and you can tune in tomorrow. Oh for a battle that led to the end of an empire. That's all for now but remember too much. True crime has used seeking a nice comforting nap shop at mattress firm. You can feel next. Level Comfort from tempurpedic beds get three hundred dollars. Bonus cash good towards sleep accessories today visit mattress firm dot com slash tempurpedic for the details.

Savannah Sherman Georgia Union army Atlanta General William tecumseh Sherm Savannah W T Sherman Major General confederate army Manna Georgia Queen Price Tracey Macon Georgia US Carolinas Tracy B Wilson apple Cutting Telegraph Casey Karuma Chandler maze
The Battle of the Crater

Citation Needed

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

The Battle of the Crater

"In some time okay let's just hope that you know who their sits down a little faster this time yes the worst I mean you guys really think they need another extended intro Yemen intermission is pretty short and people need time to get more drinks Hello and welcome to citation needed live in New York City just in case only Stacey Abrams voter whose vote actually got counted give it up for no lucians you know what fair point helped me out of here finally Jesus guy to sit down right right I I only got recruited because I've been adorable name for my penis dixie cholera labels are we gonNA write a joke here but it seemed like a lost cause so I'm heath and somehow I've been chosen to host this episode about my direct ancestor watching allied dig a hole great question finally. He's Tom Your strapping young men come help me dig this thing no absolutely not Oh interesting this is going to be a good one and also joining me all the way from south Georgia anyone's new this is the podcast where we choose subjects read a single article about it on Wikipedia and pretend we're experts because the Internet and that's how it works now all right let's get right into it we already gave you some hints but let's make it official Eli what person place thing concept phenomenon or event not Li- already told you you don't need to do that Oh for goodness sake why see so because we're going to do this one live in New York City Robert e Lee One of his confederate victories. This'll be fun yeah great work it is no exaggeration to say that if the Union army could take Richmond they could end the war thus marking the first and last time Richmond Virginia I will whistle you all day and I only looked like a confederate soldier because of the beard and the uh-huh so I'm GonNa mostly shut the fuck up yeah and hand things over to my berry where the war is officially still at halftime they say we have the I panel of experts I we have three guys who look like the confederate army can you would matter it is picturing that conversation on the battlefield right I'm sweating just watching you as says I can't have shovels anymore nothing with a handle is his thing now that's a rural trump come on guys yeah it's great for Halloween loosen and I just put the Stacey Abrams signed back on the lawn battle of the crater this episode the last stand of the civil war what better place to do it from then a scarred empty Pitney earth for the last I JV squad. He's Louis Lion Tom going to be talking about today today we'll be talking about the battle of the crater excellent and Noah you could see at least twenty confederate flag so what was the battle of the crater all right so the battle of the crater was an infamous military blunder during the American civil war in which the Union army blue I really need to watch that movie I don't think I'm doing it right it is essential we'd take Richmond and you keep saying that I think we have the manpower the Logistics and the tactical advantage right you don't strike ah I said there's a there's a bunch of guys rest into a tight whole waiting to shoot Yup. US military some things never change obviously this left the Union army salivating over at the only problem was that weapons tech was moving a hell of a lot quicker than vehicle tech at that point and the confederate army was already eggs from your house at any given by Georgia state law are you ready to see talk I am Sir Rail Lines all converging right there on their way over the APP matic's so basically everything being shipped from the south to Richmond has to make its way through exactly this spot four but it's just not clear how long that's GonNa take how many people are going to have to die to make it happen the confederacy is on the brink of collapse and one of their last remaining strongholds is Richmond Virginia I know I know it's just what we're just after we take it how long until we can give it back a couple of months giant hole in the ground climbed into it and waited for someone to shoot the puck if you've seen the movie cold mountain this is the battle is depicted in the opening scene of that movie and if you've seen the movie brokeback mountain is just kind of like getting fucked in the ass similar in many ways are there well you know how much the south likes to surrender the confederates just didn't WanNa be capitulate Oh yeah yeah all right so this story takes place in July eighteen sixty four more than three years into the war by now it's pretty clear that the US is going to win this little known facts we were all just a motive alligators away from losing this shot him in the legs yeah so trump staten island yes exactly exactly just through safe if Jersey tries to go back this is an hour that whereas under your seat so I just grabbed fine you get a joke all right so one of the things that makes the civil war so interesting to me we loaded up with formidable defences on all sides he's got zigzagging trenches with interlocking fields of fire that surround the entire city all the brush all the covers been removed the city was completely surrounded by military forces. Well we actually have here's an early example of trench warfare they just didn't have a name for that yet so grant's forces push against the city the city up against entrenched positions and if you know anything at all about World War One this is a problem that military theorists still wouldn't have solved fifty years later you make it sound like some kind of complicated equation that no man's land then planting explosives beneath the confederate trenches that you hit your cartoon dynamite plunger you poke your fingers in your ears and you wait for a hold of blow up Henry pleasants so he comes up with an idea how they can break this week's long gridlock turns out pleasants was a minor before the war and he proposes digging along mineshaft under the part of the north forever right so yeah pin in that in an plan and they like ran into Wayne Cross oh hey oh I like hundreds of yards in front of all these trenches and they replaced all of that by crazy defenses like medieval type shit like spiked logs and stuff so but in the enemy line unfortunately it would not work out as well for him as it did for the venerable Wiley Coyote a really hoping both sides tried that same yeah I did say now I heard it I don't know what direction to lie yeah not clear no okay Mamba suggests not lining up your troupes like connect four peace now of course he's direct ancestor Robert e Lee ah excellent excellent to to decide on slave exactly this is how we'll decide slavery it's one of the first major wars in the rapid fire era where both sides of the conflict have access to rapid technology right so machine guns wouldn't be invented for a couple of through the Union army tries to take Petersburg the confederate army says Nah on this is this results in what's called the siege of Petersburg now this is not technically a siege which would late means to surrender what how I saw that in the notes and I couldn't even tell where the joke was you'll find us I'm fifty eight named that'll best fit into a civil war essay honoree and he says hey what the fuck why not and he tells pleasant to make it happen interesting side note by the way burnside seconds but there are already various proto machine guns use the gatling gun was invented early on in this war so basically all the generals in the army were having to deal with whole new problems when they went all right so pleasants proposes this to Major General Ambrose e Burnside's polk county high school's class of ninety wanted to build would have been the largest military engineering project in history okay hold on they failed to dig a tunnel that was one tenth of five hundred hundred feet the whole might of the Union army couldn't dig a tunnel from my porch to somewhere around the middle of the back yard you're just like I guess a little bit for a while that'll show him leaving so among the union soldiers there's a dude named Lieutenant Colonel You're now about twenty five miles south of Richmond there's a city called Petersburg during the war that's a critical transportation hub so you've got nine different roads five different they can either we both agreed to just fill it back in right or roller derby apparently not no so all that being said the troops were getting restless and trench warfare has a way of making soldiers recognized the futility of what she's back and ultimately you end up with both sides of the army entrenched along a twenty mile front this is stalemated for weeks like this House that was the best part is you attack you lose the they're doing yeah because up until now the civil war had been going so you've been having a lot of fun yeah civil yeah just the giant beard minus the chin part like slice right out old-timey soared he looks like cease a loss to really weird bet. Yeah you guys digging other tubes me Oh what you're saying hey buddy story you go you know you go first what what so this is awkward question they have the same percentage risk getting shot so a bunch of black soldiers actually want had to help out but Joe Biden wouldn't even send a bus restoring true story he might be president also see so's wife is just really strong crazy strong raced she's been doing interval training her zero logistical support he will not even send those mother fuckers shovel so so they were given the same amount of supplies as a modern public day school teacher I've got all right so me gets a hold of the plan he's skeptical first of all he apparently hates the ever loving cow to burnside's probably just jealous of his suite chic Puke this won't work but at least this'll give the soldier something to do to keep them from getting super antsy so he agrees to burnside's plan but and this is important he offers exactly yeah he lives slept inside of them like sadly in real life I lost that bet the dignity to be five hundred feet long and the Union army had tried a similar stunt with a mine shaft one tenth that length and it puck and collapsed the mind pleasant no not one hundred percent care promised twenty twenty is literally the guy that we named sideburns true looks like a hair tonton he's he's the best at the time right where to God no if this starts with another history of digging I'm leaving I delete delete L. Yeah related to grant it's true yeah yep saint ties it's so of course Lee knows exactly how important Petersburg is he said no one's coming to save us on national never mind go you're talking about the civil war I'm talking about the first there's this processes made all the harder because the bucking commander wouldn't give them wheelbarrows US guys papa chimney up every so often and that gives you a source of fresh air but as dumb as the confederacy was they probably would have noticed a series of breathing tube popping ever closer to their line so these guys had to come up with something else confederate soldiers just sitting there and a periscope pops up the eye winks and then it goes right mm-hmm or whatever naturally inclined to shit on anything that burnside suggests but to his credit he also had good reasons to be doubtful the tunnel pleasants hundred feet and by July seventeenth right below the confederate trench works you guys can feel the fuck contention right now at this point they form a tea with the mind so they can blow up a wider Thomas Super Curious and also because it was actually a really amazing feat of engineering especially when you consider this was all done with improvise tools by people who are being shot at I'm sure all right so the biggest problem you encounter when you're trying to dig a tunnel this link this ventilation right so as you move further and further into the it right out of the Ken Burns Documentary Yeah so much better so now what pleasant came up with was actually pretty ingenious so basically you have what do you see soldier nothing surges another flirty worm sorry what it's actually like the whole movie tremors were just of course the other big issue they faced was the Andy Frayne problem right so they're trying to do this in secret so they can't exactly have this giant expanding pile of dirt right behind there channels are just trying to find out you know it's like you had to sell extra axles more bodies not true you would think this kind of thing would only have to happen once on either side before we need from you now is a fuse got it okay you can have eleven feet of yarn that's fine the Tim Ryan unexpected comeback toy that's a fresh late that's what that is I'm winning you over I'm winning you over all right I'll leave so despite several problems in the construction and supply shortages so great that they literally had to dismantle Wooden Bridge to secure enough timbers to hold up mind you're moving away from your source of oxygen and your exhaling a bunch of carbon dioxide so if you dig far enough suddenly you're GonNa have as fifty eight now normally the solution is just got it we just dig a hole and buried the dirt okay no I heard it I said out loud accent sorry it's actually more like nine feet we played Cat's cradle I wanNA play so we're in a war he's back out right and that actually creates a vacuum that pulls fresh air down into the tunnel and creates a noticeable breeze form as well replenishing air with fire swath of Petersburg's defenses and once that cavity is fully excavated they fill it with thousands of pounds of gunpowder there's there's out one really excited for him in the back that's so in spite of not having basic tools supplies and constantly being under fire we dug a secret bomb tunnel filled with explosives behind enemy lines no it's fine I'll make my own tools don't get up I'll just be winning the war you got napper whatever you call it's fine so eventually they make it to five. The solution to the problem was a flaming snorkel fan told you he'd be into this engineering all right suspense anything here we got the union soldiers got thank you tension the union soldiers advanced in the wake of this blast but they'd soon ah now recalls are never as good and it just so I wanna go into a little bit of detail in the construction of the mine itself wooden hype that funnels fresh air into the tunnel and an a shaft with fire burning and it's based it's going to heat up all the stale air that's deep in the tunnel and that's going to cause that to rise hours of July thirtieth eighteen sixty four pleasants lit the fuse detonated what may well have been the largest explosion a human beings would create aw but burs is men to their credit they spliced that shit together they made a really long daisy chain of fuses to make this work okay Sir waterproof fuse for his operation what needs sent him was a shit ton a ten foot long non waterproof uses and a note that said Fuck your face like Gimme a team we gotta Dave shut the fuck up I it's a fucking not yes the worm break first of all for nothing find out that they'd used eight thousand pounds of gunpowder to dig their own grave dont`a heaven Sign back then too yeah so burnside a requested several links of hundred foot no I guess that explains the people out front of the pit with Tiki torches channing whose I am telling you you are wasting your time exactly hey guys why yeah those are good job good job shit did sign on his own joke I love it now of course me if figures like you know what un-elected they had bridge dismantling tools but they didn't have shovels because this just seems passive aggressive now it's like no the body armor well I'm honestly not even sure just kind of guessing they also sent a case of duct tape wallets virtually the duct tape we asked for the bottom twelve percent of last year's graduating class and they did send that way we asked for that yes sir we did we call them recruits detailed report of the supplies on hand each of the five hundred assault rifles yes sir well not exactly but they sent the next best thing appea- what about the helmets what about the body armor that we ordered okay they sent melons and melon Baler for the helmets and product Smith kid over here yes sir I needed went fourteen super soldiers and twelve cap guns with caps not with caps I don't understand it inches so they actually had to carry dirt several miles behind the line and then when they got there they would like stick brushing shit over the top of it so that no spies would notice anything Amiss and Oh right yeah the tanks we got shopping carts with bayonets taped to the front is there anything that we asked for that they did send yes sir streets are okay or maybe they thought that big Red Statue at the bow tie was a confederate general. EITHER WAY WE'RE GONNA take a quick you want me to read that off to you again I do not private what the hell are we supposed to do with super soldiers they suggest that we fill them with all right. This is how will decide though we barely so in the breed on okay it's official Noah did in fact use a confederate victory for this his show thought there might be a twist sounds clear jealousy tonight loved on people like explosions leaving nothing but the shadows of children let's hear it all right you fucked up my tension by the way you plus up my spring break I remember I was doing boys. Awards are pretty cool sketch sketch sketch duct tape waltzer treasure okay private what about the tanks until we dropped the atomic fucking bomb really big fantasy got some got some fans of off the Union army had just set off giant bomb and started running towards it and the confederate lines and we're back when we left Idea Rita fucking phonology book second camera but there was one exception so burnside at one entire division under his command that hadn't seen any real battle in the entire ward of this point so in the modern day Aaron die in the mud but guy say so I guess I'll stay back here fuck your wives literal slave owners so there was this widespread fear among the Union generals that black soldiers weren't brave enough or tough enough or smart enough or whatever to be income attack now that's actually a bit of a problem because pretty much all of his regiments have been constantly fighting since the siege began at this point months earlier so none of them were in the state of the what happened they're gonNA start rationing and reinforcements to this spot and the union soldiers are going to have to secure these trenches before that happens so one brigade supposed to go left at the explosion one so here's what here's what Burns I'd had in mind after they detonate the explosion two brigades rush the line the confederacy is going to be stunned for a bit but as soon as they realize born child and I'll take the joke back exactly all right well we already lost the zip-lining audience I guess trade from further away it makes tracks that tracks so as Tom has lost the camera bat positions so throughout the war they were largely relegated to menial tasks behind the lines black soldiers just like I really really want to get out of there in general just feel my skull dimples I'd have no idea what to do burnside to forego using the troops that have been trading for this shit for weeks and instead give the job to white soldiers and the white guys we kind of think of racism as pushing African American soldiers to the frontlines but it turns out it can also push him to the rear which is what happened in the Union army put the black guys in the rear they competitive it's next all right so I have to back up in the time line a little bit so the whole time the soldiers were digging this unprecedented tunnel burnside's job is to prepare for the post complete deploy and by civil war standards of regiment that still ought to half its limbs was fucking crush the younger years in yeah animal dressed in white face just throw the whole thing on right he spent weeks with these soldiers several miles way behind the line so that the confederate army wouldn't wind like get wind of this coming attack and he gave them very specific instructions on how to uh-huh so burn scientists grant though when he looks at this division he sees fresh troops eager for a chance to prove path so as Tom has just aptly demonstrated we have to remember these guys were only progressive. Compared to that you'd want for a major assault I'm gonNA guess they were a little worn out from digging a fucking tunnel using brooms of sawed off legs have rights right literally fifteen hours before their scheduled the light the fuse need decides to make a change to burnside's battle plants he doesn't WanNa use this black regiment so he ask because they got killed by their boyfriends in a fight after an imagine dragons concert the army so here's his story goes horribly horribly wrong okay on just thousands shoot the fuck out of some slave owners so he sets about training them for the attack by modern standards training they got was pretty lacklustre but by civil war standards it was really fucking good Paul Course and take it too seriously until he killed his girlfriend and then himself what you show me a paintball or who doesn't murder his wife and his her was that he was worried that if this attack went bad they would accuse the north of using black soldiers as cannon fodder which would be a huge propaganda victory for the south honestly okay so there's a lot of disagreement about why mead made that decision there are three main schools of thought the first is that meat is just a racist and didn't want to trust important mission to black soldiers important now it's important fifty out minutes ago we were like Oh you know these guys the camera committed suicide fucking quit care matter can quit I don't want to be associated with this it goes right on the other side once they've done that two more Brigades pour into the center and take Petersburg see nowadays burnside's would have to like work at a pain that's how we train the police department off Checkout Ferguson Missouri onto believe so the second is that he didn't want to trust such an important missions to soldiers that had never actually been in battle and the third in the one that made tried to sell himself losing the battle because you're unprepared also great propaganda for actually as it turns out I think losing a battle to the enemy is generally good for the energy right yeah exactly tricky system all right buck that show the day of the battle comes the plan was to detonate the explosion between three thirty and three forty five am but I would like to know how he was a known coward right business card high known cower. We don't need business cards spliced together a bunch of sweet M. Eighties in the neighbors trash can looks like something amazing is going to happen now this is important like I said only one theory hard to some a all right it's all right so eventually they managed to get the view sorted out and the charges are wrapped up four forty four am the gunpowder was only about twenty feet below the confederate defenses in its Tam so that all the force goes up the explosion kills two hundred and seventy eight confederate soldiers immediately and left a crater doc great a lot of visual humor for the podcast thank you Eli regardless of the reason bad enough apparently burnside didn't give clear orders to Leslie or his men as to what the hell they were supposed to be doing I think he was just comfy at this point booking soldiers they're like yeah that's great but here's out we just invented something called affirmative action now where they're going to get woke so when the time came they basically just new they were supposed to go like forward so as prepared as Hillary Clinton's campaign manager Channels like look there's a change of plans were sending these five Koala bears with Dole pencils okay at least that way fewer people got killed because of their liquorice rope of uses that didn't happen in fact nothing it all happened when they lit the fuse and they spend an hour and fifteen minutes arguing about which unlucky excuse me campaign manager yeah you gotTa keep in mind how many electoral deaths are going to happen and how the fuck back I even still had his job as a mystery he was a known alcoholic and coward he was profoundly incompetent and he wasn't even an important persons kid wave of attack they wouldn't send hats had to be a skull so the Navy pulls out of this skull was Brigadier General James Leslie One hundred and seventy feet long a hundred feet wide and thirty feet deep which is still visible today we actually have a member audience who's been there whereas yet yeah right over here yeah burnside polls this highly trained division and instead of handing the assignment to his next best guy he literally draws names from a fucking hat to see who gets to lead this the also their boss's boss but apparently that to them even from before the battle started we're spending all their time sending increasingly irate messages to each other about whose fault this he's right there you can hear you can tell me

Union army Richmond confederate army burnside Stacey Abrams official Eli Georgia Noah US New York City Yemen Tom Your Brigadier General James Leslie Robert e Lee One Li New York Virginia
Prosthetics: Enhancing Human Capabilities

Trailblazers with Walter Isaacson

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

Prosthetics: Enhancing Human Capabilities

"By the third of June eighteen sixty one America was war as the echoes of Kevin Hire Faded at Fort Sumter thousands of southerners joined the confederate army among them was an eighteen year old engineering student market the first mass produced affordable prosthetic lamp. I'm Walter Isaacson and you're listening in another way after serving today's world was turned upside down Kareem comes true I went from being able to somebody that might even be super abled into trail blazers and original podcast from Dell Technologies Cereal College before the civil war she says a battlefield amputees prospects were Graham the chances are they won't be able to have might say Craig Hutto is part by McMahon arms legs over three million amputees every year who need a new or replacement we don't have any money shrouded in worry James hangers family listen and wait it then on back after which hanging is freed in a prisoner exchange and return to his family home seemingly crippled for life can bend he can lift it with his muscles it means that he can hold onto a banister but he can come downstairs on although it's not digital it's or a dime shift and I think that sound of this young engineer coming downstairs and being able to walk into his parents parlor and everything changes rubber bumpers with a hinge knee and ankle for James Hanger the first recorded amputee of the civil war it was the beginning of his prosthetic would mimic a natural limb his wooden leg car from the wood used to make Balance Inc a lot of noise there's a lot of banging shuffling back and forth and I think they're generally concerned about his condition emily mayhew is a historian at London's in mm-hmm the kind of goes into his room for three months and his family sit down in the Paula of their house a May worry about him it was a genesis moment in modern prosthetics hangar was determined that unlike the straight un-imaginative peg legs of his era the day that I think of as being this real turning point they hear his door open and then they hear something extraordinary and it's James Hanger on the prosthetic leg aesthetic fitted by going to have a short relatively miserable life on crutches boesak somewhere where they can't really move they're all wheelchairs but then also available to people that day and Philip by Virginia Hangar was captured after cannonball tore through his leg a union surgeon amputated his joie something a little bit more subtle than that what really drives Madsen are unexpected survivors. Emily may you it's the unexpected survivor. A catastrophic injury to a lamb might be a death sentence union and confederate surgeons became adept at performing amputations in the field just as a civil war had transformed a nation it changed Madison and prosthetics to where in the past the global enterprise that he would oversee until his death in nineteen nineteen and which still bears his name today hanger would go on to develop on both sides of of the American civil war the surgeons get incredibly skilled they get very quick station they learn that the best thing back with a knee joint that he is an engineer has designed and he's coming down status because he's designed leg where the knee can bend and if the when the Great War began in nineteen fourteen the prosthetics industry was ready but battlefield surgeons were not prostatic fit after the patient is gone home is to leave as much flesh and muscle as possible the needs of thousands of civil war throughout the wars of the twentieth century prosthetic technology changed little yet battlefield drivers fueled a growing aesthetics industry which soon found itself serving a new category of clients prosthetics is is not only tens of thousands of them by some estimates we always talk about how much war drives medicine in fact it's not so much roads the creation of very large factories while they have in common with war is that they injure young men who are going to have long lives by the twentieth century prosthetics manufacturers including James Hangers company had expanded to Europe they would just in time people understand that perhaps people can survive wounds that they would otherwise they would have been taught that people will will die for to commute to work this is where an old pirate trope save the day one of the things that the hooked hand has a resurgence add that there was a concern particularly amongst the British medics but if they show too much material they showed too many images that it's going to put off up to hold on to a bicycle handball or indeed the ball of one of the new underground trains or one of the buses and they can still go to work as of James Hanger soon after the Vietnam era all of that changed new technologies from composites advances in robotics nineteenth century maintaining their quality of life often dependent on their ability to take on an industrial job and just as importantly biomechanical innovation and the microprocessor opened a vast possibilities for aesthetic users to the your helicopter getting them to very well-staffed Field Hospital of highly experienced surgeons and so lives would have been lost otherwise are in fact say the young doctors coming and joining up with the war effort so although the industry the processing industry is ready the medical profession is not ready not brightest minds and prosthetics it soon became evident that these advances would help overcome barriers that had lingered since the days of James Hanger Medicine made huge advances mobile army surgical hospitals in Korea or mass units revolutionized battlefield of a natural Ma'am since eighteen ninety that mission has driven many of the brightest minds of the British aesthetics firm blatch driven by by the military it's driven by the demands of industrialization so very large-scale industrial projects the laying of railways the digging of canals the lane art the digital age would see a number of Eureka moments at Blackford but not the instant solution kind you see in the movies such as how to design for static lag dig negotiate stairs steep grades or uneven ground with relative ease evacuation of casualties highly trained paramedics the team medic in the field saving a life getting them onto to a motorized ambulance that the person who lives to require more treatment to require the prosthetic limb that's the thing that really changes medicine but unquestionably mattress links system and above the knee prosthetic lamb who ankle and knee talk to each other and coordinate their actions life losing both legs it was medical dictum before the outbreak at the beginning of the nineteen sixties but if you lost both your legs your quality RV visions I think the Eureka moment comes from when you are involved in in a it was also this idea it's it's perhaps one of the most extraordinary developments in prosthetics isn't made in the prosthetic company it's made in the field hospital and providing amputees with unprecedented ease and confidence it combines four microprocessors and seven centers Addison a decade later in Vietnam care for the wounded became even more efficient you got fast Alex and pneumatics adapt to changes in the terrain today the link system is used by roughly three to four thousand your ability and strength a decade later they introduced microprocessors to static knee and eventually an ankle empties for Said's a hedy refining the technology is good but it's only worthwhile wanted widely accessible and you and we're GonNa send you home yet for all the surgical advancement prosthetic limbs themselves at advanced little since and they're going to have long lives where they want to walk all be able to ride a bicycle for the upper body amputees the old of prosthetics isn't technology but finding ways to manage pain emily mayhew we know that in the left but they're also experiencing phantom limb pain so they're experiencing pain and really distracting sensations in the limbs in the nineteen eighties the team at Blackford pioneered the use of carbon fiber prosthetics providing more flexibility across from me an ankle joints these components a constantly gathering and exchanging data allowing the leg to adjust it's ideal I really the most significant challenge for a prosthetic wearer Zaidi agrees for his team pain management falls under the first produce it when can we make available for everyone I'm what features can be ad which will move one step closer towards the totality Habilitation Zahid he and his team also understand that one of the great barriers in the field kingdom in particular fifty percent of prophetic whereas experienced pain to the point at which they are unable to work and interestingly I don't want to use really fifty years ago how is this going to be relevant and also the American civil war is is is really again the scale and the horror of the injuries are so bad stap if the joint of oppress static limb can talk to one another to govern movement how long before prosthetic limb is connected directly to the brain for one group of trailblazers it would take a chance encounter with a raccoon the to seize that or essential for successful prosthetic comfort and confidence managing the effects of discomfort or sweat in in process and in my experience the creative parts of it comes from not being scared off every solution residual limb is no less important than the mightiest micro processes and situational awareness sensors Ashley want to use the word interesting because actually tragically they're experiencing two kinds of pain they're experiencing residual pain so that's pain in what they've got left in the body that they've in my dream I think you'll rica moments happen instantly saheed Zahid he is a technical director at Blackford I take percent improvement in pain outcomes for prophetic wearers from the first World War so in one hundred years we haven't got very far on what is there was just enough time between the American civil war and the first World War for it to be a new generation of doctors for them to look back and say well this further to the applied physics lab at Johns Hopkins University in Maryland Melissa Really A it's a phenomenal story who are lower right arm or husband rushed to the emergency room where it was determined that the raccoon did not he's a phenomenal individual Mike McLaughlin is vice president of research for the tail tack and the former Chief Engineer To answer that question Canton Ohio it's early one June morning in two thousand fifteen when Melissa was to control me it was natural thing to do now why not together and complete that picture that thinking led to carry rabies but did carry a severe infection over the weeks that followed the wound worsened then became sapped that December listen loomis right arm would have to be amputated above the elbow her surgeon since is because people want to be able to hold a bicycle handful so even if they'd lost an upper limb whether they look they've lost hand for the elbow or the shoulder they want if he's GonNa be very poor and the chances are you weren't you weren't going to survive in Vietnam War the surgeon say will if you lose growth your legs we're going to save you we're going to save you loomis or the commotion and our Backyard Her dogs cornered a raccoon your instinct to protect all three animals kicked in so in Vietnam this is the point at which we see a really significant cohort in our era so not from the first or been in our era of two people who on the scale that's required so many of the lessons that those southern and northern doctors learn on the battlefields in the American civil war will be relearned on the western front its mission is to create upper body artificial limbs that were store near Natural Motor and sensory capability to upper limb amputees and those are the ones that move your muscles so you move your hand or your arm and then you have sensory nerves that allow you know your your receptors in your head if somebody has an amputation the limits gone but the nerves that used to say run down to the hand or still there and they're just not going anywhere since two thousand and six they've been working on a program initiated by Darpa the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency behind all advanced prosthetics is the right surgery and proper Rehab Melissa's case the surgeon Dr Aj Seth not only did the prostatic arm respond to commands from this brain it went one better fee piece of muscle somewhere in her upper arm and we could detect that with those knows rematch Melissa work with McLaughlin Stein at Johns Hopkins gene feelings and sensations back to her brain and brain in conversation and so this is at the applied physics lab so the surgeon that did Melissa's operation to remove her arm what he wanted to do was to ensure actually feed it back to those those same nerves and she actually will perceive it as sensation in your fingers Akhoon by the tail moving quickly she caught the raccoon and released it over the fence but not before the animal at bit without breaking it and Mike McLaughlin it just the beginning of what's possible in neuro prosthetics breath and then when the prosthetic encounters of an object we can actually take that sensation say pressure mclachlan can cars prosthetics for for many years was very static field wasn't a lot of progress made really amazing because which essentially doing is tapping into the the old circuits so the brain remembers that the arm used to be there and it's really within the past ten to fifteen years that we've really seen connor this merging of you know advance things three D. printing has from many become part of the renaissance initiatives in the works then enable amputees engineering mechanical engineering electrical engineering computer science biology altogether to to really do some very remarkable pieces of muscle so now she thought for example if she wants to move her index finger the nerve that used to fire the muscles that would pull those tendons would now flex a little caves and bundled together is hypothermia set in and with it disorientation four days melted together I mean the tools we have now are still pretty crew it when you move your your hand you're involving you know probably a hundred billion neurons in that task no longer got we've done some research on our cohort for amputees from Iraq Afghanistan in the twenty first century and win yet we know that there's been about a one the hospital with her was diagnosed with severe frostbite soon after both his legs were amputated below the knees able personal insights he vividly recalls the labeling that came with becoming an amputee after that the next innovation felt self evident I think having been Sokoto line call and we map the nerves in your arm to interact with the prosthetic what he did was a technique known as targeted re innovations and so what targeted re innovation does is actually give those nerves a place to go and see how basically two types of nerves you have the motor a still remembers where those nerves went so it becomes a very easy way for someone like Melissa to control the prosthetic because she can think about moving the prosthetic and it'll move on this line of thought was unacceptable and I quickly realized that that was complete nonsense I wasn't broken the technology that was it's where to him. The renaissance is just beginning not only disproportional her embodied the media labs will work he provides in value today professor her leads a prosthetics innovation team at the MIT media lab in Cambridge Massachusetts purrs creative outlook early in his recovery he realized that the artificial part of himself was malleable and could assume offered to me was absolutely ridiculous it was without computation without sensing without actuation they were dumb limbs lacking any any number of shapes and functions he developed a specially crafted pair of percents legs slightly longer and lighter than natural ones that actually made him a better climber the prosthetic developed at the media lab today is to scan and print their own customized aesthetics dramatically reducing the time and cost of manufacturing affordable I couldn't really put the hand in the sort of line of time and say that was a time to me it was more the question of when can be masked without looking at a percentage hand Melissa could grasp Styrofoam Cup without crushing it and pick up an egg proteins it's Oregon's tissues to really have a more clean cohesive communication between the nervous is the time when designers design they view the human body as in variant and unchangeable and they designed components to fit that unchain or that she was able to use you know in advance prospects and he'd been kind of watching what people had been had been doing in the field and was was aware of it allowing him to walk run jump and even dance with the confidence that generations amputees could not have imagined the weather change faced with hundred mile an hour winds and a wind chill of minus one hundred and ten degrees Fahrenheit the two men Doug Snr Hers Team Imagines Advanced Prosthetics Moving sports beyond the sort of running blades that Oscar pistorius system and synthetic computation as a walking illustration of his team's work professor hers legs are we're seeing you know just a handful of those right now blatch words heeds he believes where the renaissance of prosthesis elegantly robotic looking a number of computers and dozen centers work with a series of muscle like actuators behind all these remarkable initiatives or equally remarkable people one fan morning Janet I was told by doctors and nurses all of society that the technology was wonderful it was what we had it was always going to be what we had the feel like one single twenty four hour period death felt they were discovered by snow shore and airlifted was an animal lover and volunteer at the start counting dog pound she ran out to see that one of the dogs at the because most humans can walk but we can't describe how it works and they're they go up and down steps and slopes and their their legs are doing these extraordinarily complex movements and they're they're magnificent human machine I'm Walter is changing body we're relaxing that in your own body design and were think thinking about how can we

James Hanger emily mayhew Walter Isaacson confederate army Fort Sumter America Paula Kevin Hire London engineer Dell Technologies Cereal Colle Balance Inc Kareem Graham Craig Hutto Virginia Hangar Madsen Philip Madison
65: Shermans Atlanta Campaign & The Free State of Jones

History That Doesn't Suck

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65: Shermans Atlanta Campaign & The Free State of Jones

"History that doesn't suck as a BI weekly podcast delivering illegit seriously researched hard hitting survey of American history through entertaining stories. If you'd like to support HDD S or enjoy some perks like ad free early releases or patron exclusive mini episodes, please consider giving at patriotic dot com forward slash history that doesn't suck to keep up with HDD news follow us on facebook twitter or instagram. It's summer eighteen, sixty four. Newly appointed commander of the US military division of the Mississippi General, William Tecumseh, Sherman or comp as he's better known as friends is advancing with three armies towards Atlanta. But the sharp Jhad Trim bearded ohioan isn't just thinking about the fight ahead here in the peach, state. He's thinking of his six kids. The young folks as he calls them including his recently deceased favorite child Willie. Like many of come soldiers, his terrific faced venture som nine year old fell victim to fever and dysentery. And yet the far from religious general and his devout Catholic wife. Ellen. Will soon welcome another child into their lives. There's no replacing willy. But this father of four girls hopes for a boy that may prove some kind of bomb to the Willie. Shaped hole in his in his wife's hearts. All he knows of the child is through the oft delayed letters telegrams that are a part of nineteenth century life. Headquarters military, division of Mississippi in the field. Big Shanty Georgia June. Twelfth Eighteen, sixty four. Dearest Allen? I have received fills dispatch announcing the birth to us of another son. I'm glad you're over the terrible labor and hope it is the last you'll have to endure. Of course, I am pleased to know the sex of the child as he must succeed the place vacant by Willie though I fear, we will never again be able to lavish on anyone the love we bore for him. Whatever name you give this child will be acceptable to me. Charles is a common family name would do but I will suggest none that you may name him as you choose only that it'd be simple and common. Yours W T sherman. Lancaster Ohio July seventh eighteen, sixty four. Dearest COMP. For the first time since I went to bed the night of the tenth of June I am able to sit up and hold my pen hyphen sick all that day about one o'clock I set for the doctor and at twenty minutes past to the baby was born with a cry loud enough to disturb the neighborhood like Tommy he was born with a call over a space which the doctor had to remove before his cry came forth I must thank God I am spare to my children and not Murmur at the trials he sends me as ever. Headquarters Military Division Mississippi in the field near Chattahoochee July ninth eighteen, sixty four. Dearest Allen. is now more than two months since I left Chattanooga and I think during all this time I have but one letter from you. I fear you have been more ill than I supposed the enemy and the chattahoochee lie between us and intense heat prevails but I think I shall succeed. At all events you know I never turn back. Give. My Love Your father and all the young folks. Yours ever. W T Sherman. Lancaster Ohio July sixteenth eighteen, sixty, four dearest COMP. I have been ill indeed in great danger of death and left week Charlie thrives grows and batons and is very strong and healthy. The children dote on him, particularly Tommy and Lizzy. Tommy asked me how long babies wore long dresses and when I told him six or eight months, he begged me to put pantaloons on Charlie. He walks with him in his arms and watches him plays with him and seems twenty times a day. He's so glad the baby has not a girl i. told you how very strongly resembles you inform face and shape of head the likenesses striking and I am delighted to see it. All there well, and send love to dear, Papa Ever Your Affectionate Ellen. Lancaster Ohio September seventeenth eighteen, sixty, four, Saturday morning. Dearest COMP. The baby has a very bad cold settled on his lungs. May willies pure spirit? Be Your Guide to his happy home? Heaven. Is the hourly prayer of your. Truly affectionate. Ellen. Cincinnati Ohio September twenty, second eighteen, sixty four it seems as if I were never have another letter from you dearest comp. Cincinnati Ohio, September twenty fifth eighteen, sixty, four Sunday evening. Dearest COMP, the baby, a very bad cough and I feel so uneasy. Lancaster. Ohio. November eighth eighteen sixty four. Dearest comp dear willies. Picture has just been brought and now stands framed in my room. We need this to keep him fresh in the minds and the hearts of all the children for all must love and no and talk of their holy brother. Until by God's grace, we join him in his heavenly home. The baby has such a severe cold which is taken such firm hold on his lungs that I greatly fear. He will never get over it but that it will end in consumption every year truly affectionate ellen. Obituary Charles. Celestino Sherman The New York Times December twenty fifth Christmas Day eighteen, sixty four. died at South Bend Indiana on Sunday December fourth eighteen, sixty, four of pneumonia Charles. Soliciting infant son of major, general, W T and Ellen e Sherman aged five months and twenty three days. It will be remembered by readers that Mrs Sherman left her former home at Lancaster, Ohio, and took up her residence at South Bend Indiana for the purpose of being near her children who are being educated at the Catholic institutions near that place. The remains of the Bay were convey to Saint Mary's Academy where they were received by procession of lovely children of the holy angels. The beautiful head of the child was crowned of flowers which flowed like wavelengths of light almost to the feet. and his mother with touching propriety placed a palm branch in the alabaster hand of the little one. The Right Reverend Bishop of Fort Wayne delivered inappropriate sermon upon infant baptism. The music of the choir accompanied by the grand you Oregon just erected in the church was indescribably touching and beautiful. South Bend Indiana December twenty ninth eighteen, sixty four. Dearest comp long before this you have seen in the papers, the notice of the deer baby's death God grant that his prayers and Willie's May ensure my perseverance and obtained for you the gift, of faith. Ellen e Sherman. Saint Mary's Academy December thirtieth eighteen sixty four. After writing you a brief letter yesterday trump I came back here to the academy. The wound was severe in his keenly tender yet God grant. It may be healed above my blast my holy little ones pray for us ever until we join you in the bright home above when we shall see the face of God and learn to love him as he deserves, our hearts can never rest on earthly joys again after witnessing willies agony and that compared with darling babies was almost like. Ever. Faithfully Yours Allen. headquarters. Military Division of Mississippi in the Field Savannah January fifth, eighteen, sixty five. Dearest Allen I have written several times you the children. I got your letter of December twenty third and realize the d. pain in English through which you passed in the pain and sickness of the little baby I never saw. All spoke of him. So bright and fair that I had hoped he would be spared to us to fill the great void in our hearts left by willing. But it is otherwise decreed. And we must submit. I've seen death in such quantity in such forums that it no longer starts me. But with you. It is different. Yours. WTI. Welcome to history that doesn't saw I'm your Professor Greg Jacks and I'd like to tell you the story. Today, we have two states to visit I were heading to Mississippi or some confederate deserters have decided. They're done with a CSA and proclaimed Jones County Independent. But after that will return to camp and follow him on the eighteen sixty four military campaign that prevents tenacious general from ever meeting his baby boy Charles in this life. The Atlantic campaign. I'm sure you recall from our last episode that is US grant is carrying out his overlaying campaign in Virginia he has four other generals him CSI elsewhere creating a multi-front war. Well that includes comes hard-fought four month long showdown with confederate generals, Joseph e Johnston, and John B. Hood for the city of Atlanta. So, let's get to it. We start in the Magnolia state where secessionists are seceding from the seceded southern states. Of course, the story precedes the death of Charlie so you know what we need to do rewind. Early Eighteen, sixty four and the confederacy has a serious problem in Mississippi. A group of Awol soldiers in the southeast portion of the state has declared independence from Mississippi and the PSA. Southern Unionists abroad term that includes all southerners who are less than jazz about the confederacy to downright opposed to. It are also refusing to pay taxes or return to their posts in the confederate army. One of them has even raised the US flag over the courthouse. In Jones County Mississippi Yeah the Stars and Stripes waving in the wind above confederate government building is bound to get a little bit of attention. After the flag incident CSI General Leonidas Polk reports to President Jefferson Davis that the people of Jones County are in quote open rebellion. Close quote. He reports that they are proclaiming themselves southern Yankees and resolved resist by force of arms all efforts to capture them. Leo Isn't exaggerating one of them has already killed a confederate army officer. Last fall major aimless macklemore got assigned to pick up deserters in Jones county on October fifth eighteen, sixty three aimless ran into Newton night a deserter from the Seventh Battalion Mississippi Infantry. Amos in new argued Newt a large man with a strong Roman nose straight mouth and dark beard flatly refused to return to the service of an army and country that had quote left his family destitute close quote. Aimless responded by threatening to arrest him. So new took out his pistol and shot the army officer. At least that's a compelling version of what happened eyewitness accounts differ but one thing's for sure newt would never be charged with this crime. No, one in these parts has introduced in ratting him out. Instead the residents of Jones County band together after ammos macklemore HS COM. Mysterious death. They've been fighting off confederate tax collectors and army patrollers ever since. Twenty first century historians won't find official documents to back this up, but most people call them the Free State of Jones. If that name sounds familiar. You're likely thinking of the Two Thousand Sixteen movie that tells their story with Matthew mcconaughey playing newt night, and yeah, I enjoyed solid film. But like I was saying, historians will have no official documents with that name. The only one we know these union issues for sure is the night company. Newt, sets up his namesake night company with roughly one hundred, twenty, five men mostly army deserters from the seventh battalion like himself who want nothing to do with the CSI. New tells us. We saw we had to fight. So we set up this company in the boys elected me captain. The have camps in the woods near their homes. Centuries require any person who wants access to camp to say the Password, which is I am at the red white and blue. Damn. Straight. They've got a stars and Stripes Password. This isn't Amir Group of disaffected deserters. They're a band of unionists with a 'cause. They have local officials and army patrols running scared when tax collectors come calling night company members chase them off and more than one tax collector has gone missing. Newton is banned even cease five wagons of corn from the tax men distributed among the poorest residents of Jones County. Women in the county fully support the night company as they see it, their husbands, sons and fathers are honorably fighting back against the government. They don't support. They're happy to have the help of their men and getting food for their hungry children without having to resort to bread riots like you heard about an episode fifty eight. Loyalty as officers know how much support Newton his followers get from local women. Wives sisters and daughters both bond and free bring them in food and supplies to their well hidden camps. Judge Robert Hudson Rights to Mississippi Governor Charles Clarke, and president. Jeff. Davis calling the wives and mothers of Night Company members quote unquote rotten hearted women. Judge Hudson claims that these women don't just support the damned unionists they should be held responsible for the men's behavior. He wants permission to meet out the quote most radical and severe treatment. Close quote. The judge gets his wish in April. Well sort of Mississippi officials go after the deserters not their rotten hard wives but judge Hudson will have to take what he can get. Mississippi. State leaders have grown tired of being embarrassed by what they see as a bunch of back would deserting unionists calling themselves the night company. So they sent Colonel Robert lowry with two hundred cavalry men and bloodhounds into Jones County to stamp out this rebellion. Can we just pause for a second ending knowledge the irony of the confederacy rebelling from the Union then trying to put down a pro union rebellion against the CSI I mean talk about pot calling the kettle black am I right Captain Robert Lowery tells his men. The most rigid and summary punishment is necessary to correct these evils. So as men get to work crushing the night company rebellion. bloodhounds and cavalry tracked down ten company members from their camps in piney woods near the Tulahoma creeped. Colonel Our has the man. Hank leaves their lifeless bodies swinging from the trees as a warning to others. Colonel doesn't find. Newt. But he leaves Jones County Anyway and Causes Ray to success. As, soon, as the military threat is gone, the night companies right back at it though fighting hard against the confederacy. By the way a quick aside hanging unionists isn't unique to the night company. While we lack official documents and I have to note that family tradition holds that my Virginia born ancestor able Kane, Slayton met his end with a short drawn sudden stop in. Arkansas on February twenty seventh eighteen, sixty four. India able Kane Slayton is quite the biblical analytical name for a man who met such violent end. The irony of his name is not lost on this descendant. Anyhow nudes posses too powerful and Organiz from Mississippi officials or the government in Richmond to stop. The kind of have to accept that the night company runs the show in Jones, county Mississippi. Also, of note, new is no less interest after the war, he'll help with reconstruction efforts in the Magnolia state by distributing food and supplies destitute farmers. They'll also marry a former slave Rachel, earned the scorn some of his previous friends and neighbors. But the details of the reconstructed south in the later happenings in the curious of new. Jones. Are definitely stories for another day. Time to head a bit farther east to company, General? Sherman. As. He and his three union armies descend south from Chattanooga Tennessee. ATLANTA. Georgia. History that doesn't sake sponsored by Bomba's. Baba's makes the most comfortable socks in history of feet. They've literally rethought every little detail of the socks we wear to make them away more comfortable. I wear them every day and I love how they never slight off my heel or bunch up on my toes doesn't matter if I'm in the classroom or going for a run the keep me comfortable all day long. But the socks do more than keep my feet cozy. They help give back to the most vulnerable members of our community because for every pair of socks you purchase, Baba's donates a pair to someone in need. The generosity of Bomba's customer has allowed them to donate thirty, four million pairs of socks and county through their nationwide network of thousand plus giving partners. Goto. Bomba's Com Slash H. T. D. S. Today and get twenty percent off your first purchase. That's B. O. M. B. A. S. dot com slash HDD s for twenty percent off. Bombed this dot com slash HDD. And now back to the story. On May fourth, eighteen sixty four union general William tecumseh Sherman heads southeast from Chattanooga toward the small Railroad Junction town of Dalton in northern Georgia. Compromise to his wife Ellen. The weather is beautiful and the army is in fine condition. Dalton is the first stop on the thin trim bearded general's larger mission to take Atlanta. Actually his exact orders from newly appointed from Tenant General Ulysses grant are to quote. Get. into the interior of the enemies country as far as you can inflicting all the damage, you can against their war resources. Close. Quote. Come faces a very different kind of general than Robert e Lee, whom ulysses is fighting up in. Virginia. Comes foe is the confederate general over the army of Tennessee Joseph e Johnston. Remember him from. Episode. Fifty Nine Joe. Likes defense and he plays it. Well, the Virginian generals also good at logistics and keeps his men well fed and supplied. But frankly Joe who's thick mustache soul patch Combo looks like a bold capital t under his nose just isn't that great at the whole battle part of war he doesn't want to commit to an all out fight. Like the former US general George little. Mac McClellan chose a bit of a perfectionist and has been since before the war. A friend tells the story that he and Joe went duck hunting but joe never pulled his hunting rifles trigger. Quote the bird flu too high or too low. The dogs were too far to near things never did suit. Exactly. He was afraid to miss and risk his fine reputation. Close quote. No wonder. He Little Mac was such good friends before the civil war. You know before they both danced around each other in the eighteen sixty two peninsula campaign. I swear if Bobby Lee hadn't replaced Joe in that fight, those two would have campaigned inconclusively against one another until the end of time. Okay enough on Joe's background, the Virginia has to defend Atlanta from two comes as almost one, hundred, thousand boys and blue. Now, that he's division of Mississippi, commander come has three armies under him. The sixty thousand man army of the Cumberland commanded. By General George Thomas the twenty, five thousand man Army of the Tennessee led by young general. James B McPherson. And the small thirteen thousand man Army of the Ohio headed up by Major General John Scofield. Come calls his massive force quote one of the best armies in the world. Close quote. Meanwhile Joe only has the fifty thousand strong confederate army of Tennessee he's outnumbered two-to-one. At least he's got geography on his side. The federal troops need to cross miles of rugged mountainous terrain pass through dense forests and Ford three major rivers if they want to get to Atlanta. The Balding Ingrained Joe has a good eye for finding highly defensible positions in this landscape. On May Seventh Union troops arrived just north of their first target Dalton to find Joe and his confederate troops dug in north west of the town at Rocky. Face Ridge known to the locals as Buzzard Roost. But there's no way that comes going to be able to just punch through these lines. He has to find a way around them. Good thing. He's got three armies. Come. Orders Army of the Tennessee Commander James McPherson to head South through Snake Creek gap and hit the railroad behind the rebel position while George Thomas and John Scofield take their respective armies to make small attacks against the confederate works at rocky face. Ridge. This way explains comp they can avoid quote the terrible door of death that Johnston has prepared for us in the buzzard roost. Close quote. It's a great plan. But the thirty five year old dashing general. James McPherson has never led a mission like this. May Ninth James has been passed through Snake Creek gap without a hitch and break the rail lines south of Dalton. So far so good. At this point only four thousand southerners defending Critical Rail Bridge or the Houston Allah River. If James can capture that bridge. The Union army's can trap Joe Johnson's entire Army almost ninety miles north of Atlanta. Jane's needs to act now. But he doesn't. The inexperienced general explains. Quote If I could have had a division of good cavalry could have broken the rail at some point. Close quote. James's caution gives Joe Johnston. Chance to escape. He figures out the Union ploy and on. May. Tenth carefully retreats from Rocky Face Ridge to previously built defenses fifteen miles south aristocracy. COMP disappointed with his protege, James McPherson and tells them well Mac. You miss the opportunity of your. Life. The Union army has to pursue the confederates while get to choose the next battleground. At Razaka Joe's men control the only major bridge over the river and occupy formidable defences. Oh and they get fifteen thousand reinforcements from Alabama under the command of general. Leonidas polk. That brings Joe's forces up to sixty five, thousand men. Chose Brilliant at defensive warfare comes out. He positions his troops in a West facing arc with his southern lines anchored on. HOUSTON. All River, the all important rail bridge in his central lines built into a High Ridge. has to find a way around these lines and over that bridge if he wants to trap Joe's Army of Tennessee. or he could try another turning movement like he did adult. A May fourteenth and fifteenth. Union troops attacked the confederate works but this is just a decoy. While Union cannons and rifle fire away at the grain butternut clad soldiers come since one division southwest at the battle to lay a pontoon bridge over the river. Who needs the rebel-held bridge unique just build your own right? You realize the federal troops are at his rear. Again, he figures he can't hold his position and protect the rail lines. Time to retreat. The battle restock, it costs him. Twenty eight hundred casualties enforces Joe to look for another defensible stronghold. For the next several days, the army of Tennessee marches south toward altoona pass with three union armies in hot pursuit? One. Georgia, soldier gets frustrated. The Joe isn't fighting harder to defend his home state. The truth is we have run until I'm getting out of heart and we must make Stan soon or the arm you'll be demoralized but all is in good spirits now and believe General Johnston will make a stand and with the Yankees back. While hopeful grey clad soldiers dig in altoona pass forty miles northwest of Atlanta come calls a trick play. He orders to pack twenty days worth of food in head southwest away from their supply lines and away from Atlanta. WHAT'S COMP UP TO YEAR? Don't worry. The determine general has a plan. C. To come so wants to get out ahead of Joe Johnston and surprise them succumb figures if he marches South West. Toward Small Rail Depot called Dallas then he can turn and hit the rebel supply depot at Marietta. All Joe is still camped up at altoona pass. A May twenty third federal soldiers crossed the Ebola River and put this plan into motion. But Joe's grey clad cavalryman alert their leader to union movements and JOE figures outcomes plan he rushes out of the mountain pass and has his men dig in your before the Yankees arrive. Damn I said once but I'll say it again this thin Bali moustachioed and soul. Pash. Virginian knows how to fight a defensive battle. Anyway a May twenty fifth General Fighting Joe Hooker Leads Union. March I trust. You remember the dark dark-haired general who fights is hard as he plays in crushed it doing his part back in Chattanooga during episodes sixty two. Well, this afternoon fighting Joe runs right into confederate General John. Hoods well, entrenched men near the new hope Church a few miles northeast of Dallas. And unfortunately, for Fighting Joe John, hood knows how to bring the heat this Kentucky and lead troops at. Second. Manassas in Tatum Fredericksburg, Gettysburg and Chicago Maga, and he's got the battle scars to prove it a thirty something blonde haired blue eyed heavily bearded John has paralysed left arm and lost his right leg at Chicago but he didn't lose his fight. At. Five PM come orders an attack on John's position. Even though fighting Joe's men outnumber John's three to one, the blue coats can't dislodge the confederates from their lines. For three hours fighting. Joe's men launch dozens of uncoordinated confused attacks and according to one soldier quote. Nearly, everyone swearing top of his voice. Close quote. As night falls and severe thunderstorms roll in all fighting Joe has to show for the battle at New Hope Church is one thousand, six, hundred, sixty, five casualties. It takes another thirty six hours of skirmishing in heavy rain for comp to ascertain just what he's up against. Imagine five miles abreast works earthen works in a batty man by season confederate soldiers cutting through dense woods, ravines, ridges, and small creeks. And the red bearded union general can't find a weak spot along the entire line. Come figures best option is to get in between Joe Johnston and the Atlanta rail lines to the east. To do that he'll need to flank the northeast end of confederate lines at Pickett's mill. Union troops track over the disorienting terrain incessant thunderstorms trying to find the confederate flank there's supposed to attack one officer quips. No person can appreciate the difficulty of moving over this ground unless he can see it. When they finally reach their target, the confusion doesn't let up. At four thirty, five, PM Union General George Thomas Zeman launched their attack, their grey clad enemies fightback. According to one union officer, the southerners quote not only opened a murderous fire from their frontline works, but also terrible crossfire from both links. Close quote. George Thomas Has Yankee. Troops get slaughtered suffering sixteen hundred casualties. A survivor of the battle Pickett's mill will later write a memoir called the crime at Pickett's mill. The next morning. Joe Johnston. Gets word that union troops moving east out of the area. Joe Figures he has a chance to hit com while he's on the road and in an uncharacteristically offensive move joe takes it. He orders John Hood to attack or may twenty eighth, but the assault is a total disaster. The Yankees. Are Not on the road, but doug into well hidden earthworks in ready to fight. In a reversal of the battles tickets mill John's men bashed themselves against union lines to no avail. The confederates lose between one thousand and one, thousand, five, hundred men. Who? No Wonder Union troops call these three engagements combined the battle of the hell hole. The only union benefit from these four days of brutal fighting is that Federal Cavalry took the confederates former position Altoona pass while the rebels were distracted Dallas. With Blue Clad cavalry in the mountains, come marches men back to supply line seven miles south altoona to regroup. Meanwhile, Joe Pulls his men to a slave built stronghold at Pine Mountain. These two positions are only a couple miles apart in not more than twenty miles from Atlanta. After the disasters near, Dallas starts raining the first week of June doesn't let up for seventeen days. Comprises a letter to his boss and best friend Ulysses complaining that the rain comes down quote as though it has no intention ever to stop. Close quote. But the fallout union armies of the Cumberland, the Ohio and Tennessee are grateful for a reason to hunker down and rest for a minute. On, June fourteenth two days after receiving news of his son's birth. Would you heard about in the opening to comes as hard at work finding a way to break or flanked the confederate position? He reports quote. Johnston has sixty thousand infantry fifteen thousand cavalry in a good deal militia. He must have a terrific battle. and He wants to choose and fortify his ground. Close, quote. Union generals go on a scouting mission to find a weak spot in the nearby rebel position. Competence companions can see gray clad men walking along the ridge of Pine Mountain but the are too far away to see who these soldiers might be. It's a pretty bold move to stroll around and the open like that within range of federal artillery comp remarks. House awesome be are. The red headed general or suspend fire the forces enemy troops to take cover. COMP has no way of knowing that he just ordered his men to fire on confederate generals, Joe Johnston, William, Hardy, and Leonidas Polk and their staff. These guys are out on a recon mission of their own. From Pie Mountains, Ridge it can get a full view, the union positions without the dense Georgia forest blocking their line of sight. Then federal artillery opens up on. Joe And William Take Cover but LEO moves too slow leak Catholic Bishops turn general stands and open while his aides yell at him down. They watch in horror as a three inch ball lows through Nieto's chest hits a tree behind him and explodes. Leo's lifeless body drops to the ground. Once. The shelling ends Joe Crawls over to his dead comrade. weepy. I would rather anything then this. Joe Issues a statement. That afternoon informs men the loss of yet another confederate general it reads. Comrades you called them on your first captain, your oldest companion arms tenant. General Leonidas Polk. In, this distinguished leader, we have lost the most courteous gentlemen the most gallon of soldiers. Leo Soldiers and family mourn his loss. But history will be less kind to the Bishop General Historian Stephen Woodworth surmises quote. pokes incompetence had consistently hamstrung confederate operations west of the Appalachians his special relationship with the president made him untouchable. Close quote. Now doesn't know that he may have been better off with Leo alive rather than dead. He simply reports the chief of staff. Henry. How. Can Washington DC? We killed bishop bulk yesterday and have made good progress today. If by that, you mean watching the rebels retreat and other few miles to kennesaw mountain then yes general Sherman you have made. Good progress. Yeah once the balding confederate general scouted out the union position. He realized he would have a hard time defending Pine Ridge. So on June eighteenth. Minded Joe Orders Southern boys to pack up and move to a stronger position your kennesaw mountain two miles closer to Atlanta. No problem couple just do it. He's been doing this whole campaign skirt Joe's left Lincoln threatened his rear. Hey It worked Dalton and at Rusalka it could work again. Come plans to travel south around Kennesaw Mountain and then east to the confederate supply. Depot Maryetta. Maybe guys can hit a waterpark in Marietta get some relief from the Georgia summer heat. Just, Kidding Marietta hasn't bloomed into the bustling Atlanta suburb that you and I will know the twenty first century. Anyway on June twenty second comp orders John Scofield, and fighting Joe Hooker to March south of Kennesaw mountain as the advance guard. But the confederate top brass have finally figured out comes Mo here third time's the charm and Joe Johnson since his aggressive battle-scarred General John Hood with an entire division to block the union flanking move. About fifteen thousand blue coats clash with fourteen thousand grey-clad men near copes far John Scofield and Joe Hooker successfully repulse John Hood's attack with three hundred union and over one thousand confederate casualties. This small skirmishes important for really only one reason. It prevents the federals from following through on their plan flanking move. Looks. Like comp will have to hit kennesaw mountain head on. At Eight PM on June twenty, seven, the union general puts. His battle. Plan. Into action. Come orders his men to hit the confederate works in three places. Honestly. This is almost hopeless situation for the boys in. Blue. The well protected rebels sit behind breast works in parapets, which runs south from kennesaw mountain down to cope's farm. Almost all the way to Chattahoochee River tributary called all these creek. Still, if trump wants to get to Marietta and into Atlanta is men will have to get through Joe, Johnston southern troops on how. The booming of over two hundred pieces of artillery starts the battle and union soldiers advance on the confederate lines. James, McPherson orders his men from the army of the Tennessee to advance on the northern section of the rebel works while George Thomas's men of the army of the Cumberland hit the center. The Blue Clad soldiers fight well, but confederate bullets repulsed almost every attack. One brave color bear from the fifty second Ohio actually reaches the rebel line climbs an earthen parapet. While he raves his regimental flag encouraging his comrades to join the fight southern officer jumps on parapet. The two men fight hand to hand one trying to keep the flag-waving the other trying to throw it to the ground. The Ohio and kills his southern foe but as he waves his flag in triumph. Confederate takes him and the flag down. This is as far as any union soldier get today. By early afternoon, come calls off the attack counts bodies. To Union. Officers are dead, general, Charles, Harker and Colonel Daniel. McCook. Another. Three thousand of his soldiers are wounded or dead. There's plenty of blame to go around as to why and how the Union assault failed today become points to the loss of important. Leaders as a mean 'cause. He reports to Henry Hallaq had harker and McCook not been struck down. So early, the assault would have succeeded, and then the battle would have all been in our favor on account of our superiority of numbers, position and initiative. Whether that's true or just battlefield bravado will never know. Come does let down his guard in the letter he writes to his daughter Minnie that night. The battle-weary general tells his thirteen year old. I ought not to make promises. For I daily see too many officers buried by the roadside or carried to the rear main mangled to count on much of a future. Oof that's a grim outlook. Become Scott Point. The Union army does make some progress today. While, the battle raged one of comes divisions crossed Creek South and confederate lines off small rebel unique and now controls the waterway. In short the federal flank Joe Johnston again and he'll have to entreat. Looks like everyone's learning something today to come figures out that frontal assaults are deadly ineffectiveness. and Joe was learning though he should know it already. Awesome breast words in the Bachelor. Pause your enemies progress not the point. Joe, Johnston pulls back again. By July eighth, he's well entrenched on the North Bank. So the Chattahoochee, the last river between the Union army in Atlanta. At tecumseh could attack the confederate position head on. or He could cross the chattahoochee south of rebel. Lines. Threaten. Their. Rear. Becomes done both of those things and he wants to try something new. You. Know Surprise Joe in his gray. Gladman. Enter General John Scofield. John Takes his small army on a recon mission north of the confederate position and finds a barely guarded ferry where his entire force could easily cross the chattahoochee. Even better for the Union army's Joe. Johnston's got his cavalry miles to the southwest covering the place where he thinks union troops might cross the river. Let's do this job. At three thirty P. M. John's men's splash across the chattahoochee and take the southern's totally by surprise. By Sundown, the Union, Army of the Ohio has built two pontoon bridges taking the high ground entrenched and is ready to defend their position. Town that's good work, John Its top it all off John reports that this move is done quote without the loss of a man. Close quote. This slinky maneuver forces Joe Johnston to retreat again. He takes his manned Peach Tree Creek a small stream runs east to west only five miles north of Atlanta proper. And that's the last move that the balding confederate general will make not because he finally stops you trine of course, but because he gets fired. Here's how that goes down. CSI President Jefferson Davis is sick and tired of watching. Joe. Give up ground in Georgia. So July Sixteenth Jeff Asks Joe to explain his overall plan to save Atlanta from the Yankees. The general. Answers. As the enemy has doubled number, we must beyond the defensive I plan of operation must therefore depend upon that the enemy. Is mainly to watch for opportunity to fight advantage. That's Joe. Your boss wants a plan of action. You WanNa stay on the defensive. Jeff Davis thinks this plans sucks. Joe Johnston has to go. So on July Seventeenth Jeff Sachs experienced but underperforming Joe Johnston via telegram. I express no confidence that you can defeat or repel the enemy. You are hereby relieved from the command of the Army and Department of Tennessee, which you will immediately turn over to General John Hood. How much that's almost says badged girlfriend breaking up with you via taxed. But WHY IS JEFF choosing to promote relatively inexperienced General John Hood. Well, as it so happens, John has been writing to Jeff and see Assay War Secretary James Seddon for weeks now. The confident blue eyed commander has been talking up his own qualifications while not. So subtly hinting that other confederate generals like next in line William Hardy referred Joe Johnston's defensive plans. The same day John Gets promoted war Secretary James said, and sends a message to him saying quote you are charged with great trust. You will I know test to the utmost your capacities to discharge it. Be No less wary than bold. Exactly a message that exudes confidence but aggressive eager for fight John, has command now. Let's see how he does. On July Twentieth Union troops start moving toward the confederate army and its newly promoted leader John. In General George Thomas in his army marched across Peachtree creek in a direct assault on confederate lines. But John's rebelled troops are ready for the attack. What they aren't ready for is Union General John. SCOFIELD's advanced from the east. Not Good. John Scrambles data's grey clad soldiers in position for this two pronged federal salt at four pm John is finally ready to launch an attack to stop the Yankees but this delay gave union commanders a chance to prepare instead of marching into confederate lines they dig in on the highly defensible southbank of Peachtree Creek and wait for the rebels to attack them. The confederate assault devolves into a bloody mess in the sweltering afternoon, heat and humidity. John's lack of overall field command experience begins to show one Alabama soldier recalls. The most perfect order and system and movements of the army under Johnston suddenly changed into utter confusion. Cavalry were hurrying in one direction artillery flying in another infantry double quickening another. And everywhere confusion. In only a few hours of fighting John Loses around forty, seven, hundred men while inflicting only one thousand, seven, hundred, ten casualties on the Union forces. The defeated confederate general retreats behind intimidating defenses that ring Atlanta. But there's no way aggressive John is just going to sit and wait for come to Sherman to attack him. This guy got schooled by the likes of Bobby Lee and Stonewall Jackson. He's not going to cower before the enemy. Now. On the night of July Twenty First, John Orders William, hardy in two infantry divisions on a night march to attack. General James McPherson's Army of the Tennessee. This army stationed east of Atlanta and is threatening to not only shell the city but also break the making rail line. John can't have that. So we want man to get around the union rear and launch a surprise attack at dawn. Year that doesn't work. The march starts late the men are exhausted. The still night air is hot as hell and confused Calorie leaves the infantry right into the reinforced union front instead of sneaking around the back. Nice Despite this mess at noon on July twenty. Second William Orders, his southern boys to attack. The uncoordinated assault by exhausted rebel soldiers meet stiff, federal. Resistance General James McPherson keeps a close eye on the battle to ensure as men can hold their ground. Within an hour James Learns that there's a half mile gap between his Fifteenth Sixteenth Cores and that the confederates could easily exploited. He's got to close it. James. In a staff, mount their horses a start writing the dense woods toward the battle. came. So anxious, he rides ahead of his men. The young general soon, see soldiers through the trees. He also sees their gray uniforms. The confederates have already infiltrated the gaps in his lines. James can't hide. The confederates have heard his horse. Halt. One of them yells others take aim with their rifles. James Turns horse around the before can ride safety confederates fire. Thirty five year old up and coming James Drops off his horse dead before he hits the ground. When comp hears about James, death he shocked. He later reports Suddenness of this terrible calamity would have overwhelmed me with grief. But the living demanded my whole thoughts. Confederate General John, hood? React. Similarly. Yeah. James and John were old friends classmates at West Point along with another general in this Fight Union General John Scofield. Even, though they've chosen different sides in this war. John Hood Remembers James McPherson fondly. The Kentucky and writes. No soldier fell in the enemy's ranks whose loss caused me equal regret. Close quote. The. FIGHTING EAST OF ATLANTA RAGES ON COME TEMPORARILY PROMOTES General John Black, Jack Logan Field Command of the army of the Tennessee. The swarthy general who we met an episode fifty nine gets right into the fray. Under heavy enemy fire blackjack leads to brigades any counter attack, he yells out McPherson and revenge boys. And his attack successfully retake several pieces of artillery that had been lost earlier in the battle. To come to leave his headquarters at Howard House and gets into the middle of the actions. Well, General John Scofield watches almost in awe as comp quote leads the batteries in person to some high open ground in front of our line. Now, house placed them in position and directed their fire which from that advanced position infiltrated the parapets from which our troops had been driven in which the enemy then occupied. Close quote. With comes clear Directions Union artillery fire soon clears rebel troops out of those entrenchments. The fighting soon to be called the battle of Atlanta rages until dark false. Both sides take heavy losses, but the union lines hold. Confederates about eight, thousand, five, hundred, dead, and wounded while tecumseh has thirty, six, hundred casualties. William Hardy and his bruised infantry head back to the safety of Atlanta. For two weeks come tries to cut the major rail lines that bring food supplies ammunition into Atlanta. But fierce ever John isn't about to let that happen. He sends out forces to protect the lines at any cost and up until August ninth the confederate general succeeds then to come. So Sherman brings out the big guns. That Tuesday come put siege guns from Chattanooga in position to shell Atlanta into submission the bomb scare many locals into fleeing the city but others choose to stay. In fact so many Atlantans hold out against the Yankee bombardment give hope to beleaguered southerners throughout the say. The Atlanta in our newspaper ironically printing from Macon and not its home city writes quote Sherman will suffer the greatest defeat that any Yankee. General has suffered during the war. The Yankee forces will disappear before Atlanta before the end of August close quote. Camp keeps up the shelling to whittle down Atlanta's defenses. He tells us, staff let us destroy Atlanta and make it a desolation. With every bomb, his popularity dwindles in his infamy rises in southern minds. But the Union generals not here to make friends and he knows it hill later writing his memoirs. Quote War is war and not popularity seeking. Close quote. I think that's comes way of saying he plans to see this siege through no matter how long it takes. and His boss in Washington DC are on his side as the long days of shelling continued through August US Secretary of war Edwin Stanton rights to come to. Quote. Do not imagine we are impatient of your progress, take your time and do your work in your own way. This department is only anxious to afford you every assistance within its power. Close quote. Sakaba keep squeezing. Atlanta and by August thirtieth, the union troops have destroyed every rail line into the city except one. The make in Western. This line comes into the city from the south and its nearest depot is at Jonesboro twenty miles away. Before he attacks the make a western line to come to make some movie that confuses the hell out of. John Hood. The Red headed union general polls back moving his men and supplies north all the way to the Chattahoochee River. John Honestly thinks the federals retreating having run out of AMMO and food. Not Quite John I mean they are low on food, but to come came from Atlanta and he intends to get. ATLANTA. COMP orders almost his entire force to move south and break the rail line. Generals George Thomas John Scofield will attack near. ATLANTA. While the army of the Tennessee has farther south to capture and destroy the depot Jonesboro. Only. When all three union armies position south of Atlanta does John. Hood realize what's happening The panic confederate General Sends William. Hardy on an almost hopeless mission to stop the. Unions tax. At three thirty PM on August thirty. First, the rebels catch up with union troops, the men in Grey and butternut throw everything they have into the fight. One Florida officer describes the battle of Jonesboro as quote pure hell. Close. Quote. Union troops badly outnumbered confederates but they won't give up Atlanta's last lifeline easily. Won Federal Soldier says enemy troops quote King Within Twenty steps and I had just as good shots as ever I did at a rabbit. Close quote. After hours of battle, the confederates entrench having suffered well over two thousand casualties. But it's no use federal troops control the rails a few miles north of Jonesboro without any rail lines. John who has no way to get food or reinforcements he must abandon Atlanta and he knows it. On the night of September First William Hardy Keeps Union troops occupied at Jonesboro while hood marches the rest of his army out of Atlanta South to lovejoy station. John Force to abandon to munition trains and other valuable stores. The confederate general is pissed and says, this mistake is quote owing to the wanton neglect the chief quartermaster close quote. John sets fire to the supplies without any hope of being able to replace them, and if you see in the classic film Gone With the Wind, you probably remember that this is about the time that re Butler get Scarlett O'Hara Melanie Hamilton out of Atlanta. While the movie gets a few things wrong as the confederate army's leave Atlanta there's not nearly as much dramatic music or Clark Gable Saving Damsels in distress but there are that many explosions and fires. One confederate Colonel Reports The Red Glare in the northern sky and the Solan rumble of distant explosions told that hood was burning stores in abandoning Atlanta to Sherma. The Union. Army occupies Atlanta on September second. four-month campaign came at a cost of thirty, seven, Thousand Union and at least thirty thousand confederate casualties. TO COME TO MISSISSIPPI CHANCE TO SACK John Hood's army before they dig in lovejoy station. But he does control Atlanta last. The Union general in his usual to the point style telegraphs. Washington DC. Atlanta's ours and fairly won. This news, this union victory is more than just a point on the scoreboard for the Union. It has potential political implications. Just might be the shot in the arm. President Abraham Lincoln's dying election campaign desperately. History that doesn't suck created and hosted by. Greg Jackson. Researching and writing by Greg Jackson Yell Salazar Production by airship sound designed by Derek, terence theme music composed by Greg, Jacks arrangement, and additional composition by Lindsey Graham of air show for Bibliography of all time Mary Secondary sources consulted writing this episode visit HDD s podcast Dot Com. HDD disappointed by fans at HP on DOT, com forward slash history that doesn't suck. Yellen dire beyond grateful to. Providing funding. Help US keep going. And a special thanks to our patrons whose monthly gift puts producer stats. We'll call Jason Karston John Frugal Dougal Michael and Rachel. Bob. DRACEVIC feet down through Hill Andrew Fortunate Bryce in. Rap Firm Dax Jones John Leech Jeffrey. KNITS, and Brandon. Joining two weeks where I like to tell you a story.

Atlanta Army Joe Ellen e Sherman John B. Hood Ohio P. M. John Union army Mississippi General Johnston Tennessee Georgia Union confederate army Yankees James B McPherson John Scofield Governor Charles Clarke General Leonidas Polk officer
241 | War at Home

Aaron Mahnke's Cabinet of Curiosities

11:23 min | Last month

241 | War at Home

"Welcomed Aaron monkeys cabinet of curiosities production, of Heart Radio and grim and mild. Our world is full of the unexplainable. And if history is an open book, all of these amazing tales right there on display just waiting for us to explore. What's going? To the cabinet of curiosities. Giovanni Caselli wanted nothing more than to talk to people is only problem is that the people he wanted to talk to lived very far away perhaps that was why he became a Catholic priest. So he could have a direct line to someone else very far away. Born C at Italy in eighteen fifteen. Caselli may have arrived a few hundred years too late for the renaissance but he certainly grew into quite the renaissance man in addition to getting ordained in eighteen, thirty six he also studied history science and literature. His L. eventually transitioned from being a student to be in a teacher. He tutored Italian aristocrats in Parma for several years before his exile to Florence for political activism. He soon took a job as a physics professor at the university there. Caselli soon became entranced by the sciences his own teacher Leif Nobili taught him about subjects like electromagnetism, an electro chemistry. Caselli took it upon himself to adapt those lessons into a journal. He called the recreation which was meant to dispel such complicated science into a more accessible form. One particular topic struck Caselli during his tenure at the university electricity specifically, its use in transmitting signals from one place to another when he wasn't teaching Caselli was researching how to send messages across long distances over wire. Now the telegraph which sends electrical pulses across a vast network of wires had existed since the eighteen forties Caselli didn't want to send beeps in blips though you wanted to send words and even pictures but fortunately, he was limited by the technology of time. Sending. Messages from one location to another required a lot of power and a method of synchronization between the transmitter and the receiver after many years ago he finally cracked it in the eighteen fifties with his invention. He called the pen, Telegraph. It was six feet tall shaped like a giant wishbone and was powered by massive batteries on one side to curved metal plates were situated next to each other a transmission plates and the receiving plates. The transmission plate held the message to be sent, which was written in a non conductive ink descended. A stylus would travel across plates in parallel lines until the message had been scanned. The information gathered from the conductive plates and the non-conductive. Inc was then sent over telegraph lines to another pen telegraph setup. Elsewhere, a pen fixed over the receiver plates on that device would rights or draw the incoming transmission on a new piece of paper. To solve his synchronization problem casella used a fairly low tech solution a pendulum clock known as a regulating clock the. Would swing back and forth completing and breaking the circuits over and over again keeping both the transmitter and receiver in sync. I demonstrated his device in eighteen fifty six to leopold the second Grand Duke of Tuscany. The Duke was in awe of what Caselli had accomplished and provided funding for his other experiments and inventions for some time eventually grew bored waiting for the next big thing from the physicist seeing the writing on the wall Caselli pats up and headed to Paris where he showed off his pen telegraph to Napoleon the third and like the Duke Napoleon was hooked. Caselli conducted a test of his device between Peres and Amelia. A distance of almost ninety miles. The machine passed without a single hiccup. Another message was sent nearly five hundred miles from Paris to Marseille. Napoleon was convinced in eighteen, sixty four, the pen telegraph became an official and legally authorized method of transmitting written messages across long distances. It didn't last long though while impressive relatively fast the device was not the most reliable method of sending information from one place to another. Eventually Caselli walked away from it entirely and went back to Italy to live out the rest of his days. Eleven years later and inventor named Alexander. Graham Bell would receive the patent for a little device known as the telephone. It goes without saying that telephone change the way people communicated all over the world but it was Giovanni Caselli who went down in history as the man who gave us something even more impressive. The, very first. Fax Machine. This episode was made possible by the deadbolt mystery society. Are you a Connoisseur of murder mysteries? D Love the thrill of unraveling the clues than the deadbolt mystery. Society is a great way to bring the mystery to life in your own home deadbolt mystery society is a monthly subscription box filled with the story line of immersive scenarios, intriguing characters at original compelling stories, and it's all delivered right to your door. Each box features interactive online components that bring each story to life like, Puzzles. And interviews according to Buzzfeed it's the closest you'll get to fulfilling your dream of being Sherlock Holmes. The deadbolt mystery society boxes contain standalone stories. So you don't need to have multiple orders to complete your murder mystery storyline and you can choose three six or month subscription options for a greater discounts. Are you ready to prove your skills solve your first mystery box at deadbolt mystery society dot Com when you do be sure to use the Promo Code Cabinet Twenty and you'll save twenty percent on all subscription. Plus single one time boxes. That's twenty percents off all subscription options and single onetime boxes at deadbolt mystery society, DOT, com. Offer Code Cabinet to zero. Wilmer, McLean wasn't just a simple farmer. He had moved with his wife to her plantation near Manassas Virginia a home they called Yorkshire. Unsurprisingly McLean was an outspoken supporter of the confederacy like most of his Virginia neighbors. That was probably why confederate Brigadier General P G T beauregard had chosen mcleans farm to be his base of action. Signs of a major conflict had been evident for months as more and more states seceded from the Union following the capture of Fort Sumter Bhai, South Carolina troops back in April Abraham Lincoln enlisted tens of thousands of volunteer soldiers to prepare for war. Wilmer fled his home with his family on July seventeenth of eighteen sixty one beauregard had arrived that day with his staff to commandeer the land the House and the barn as his headquarters thirty five, Thousand Union troops had marched for two days in the blistering summer heat finally arriving at bull run while roughly thirty two, thousand confederate soldiers had taken over Manassas junction and the surrounding areas. On the evening of July eighteenth beauregard was sitting in Wilmore's home waiting for his dinner when out of nowhere a visitor came tearing through the front door and landed in the fireplace. It was a Canon Ball. Didn't may have been canceled, but the battle of bull run and in a way the civil war itself had officially begun. For four years brother fought brother father fought son when the fighting had finally stopped seven hundred and fifty thousand souls had been lost about two point five percent of the country's population and almost half of the bodies were never identified. Wilmer had been too old for the frontlines. However, he did find ways to support the south. He made money as a sugar broker and smuggler bringing it to the confederate army through union blockades a year after beauregard had taken control of his home and turned his barn into a field hospital. Wilmer came back to the plantation to help out in other ways. The said seen quite a bit in his absence. As you might imagine, the would had splintered where cannon fire and bullets had gone through its walls. It was no longer the place where he and his wife had hoped to raise their family. It had become a war torn shell of its former self even. So this had been his home and wilmer chose to stay for the winter as a quartermaster to support the troops. When the snow started to melt and budding flowers blossomed fighting between the north and the south grew more heated as well. Wilmer decided that he'd had enough he and his family traveled over one hundred miles away to another tiny village in Virginia, far from the bloodstained fields and air choked with gunpowder. Used his money to buy a new house, a converted tavern that had been built in eighteen forty eight by man named Charles? Rain. Rains family sold it to wilmer in eighteen, sixty, three and one time farmer breathed a sigh of relief believing that he'd left the violence of war of his previous home in the past. Unfortunately, he would not be so lucky. On April ninth of eighteen, sixty, five, wilmer was greeted on the street by Charles Marshall a confederate colonel who randomly stopped the first man he saw to ask a simple question. was there a home nearby with General Ulysses s grant of the Union Army, could meet peacefully with confederate commander General Robert E. Lee. Wilmer took Marshall on a tour of an old brick house he thought might work but Marshall told him no, it had to be nicer somewhere quiet and respectable where the two men could sit down and talk things out. Wilmer has it tasted before eventually suggesting his own home as a possible meeting place. Right there in the village. Of Apple maddox courthouse. And Marshall accepted. And grant sat across from each other in woolmer's lavish parlour as the confederate general threw in the towel. The war was over and the South had lost the union officers in attendance hooted and hollered getting downright rambunctious as they tore the house up looking for any and all souvenirs to mark the momentous occasion. They cut strips of fabric out of woolmer's furniture they took silverware and candlesticks, and even a doll belonging to his young daughter they paid for the damage with money they practically forced into the man's pockets before leaving with their keepsakes. And Wilmer McLean. became the only man in history with the right to say that the civil war had started in his backyard. And ended in his front, PARLOUR I hope you've enjoyed today's guided tour of the cabinet of curiosities subscribe for free on Apple podcasts or more about the show by visiting curiosities. PODCAST. Dot. com. The show was created by me Aaron. Minke. In partnership with how stuff works I make another award winning show called Lor, which is upon cast book series and Television Show and you can learn all about it over at the world of Lor Dot Com. Until next. Time. Stay curious.

Giovanni Caselli Wilmer Brigadier General P G T beaure Aaron Italy Wilmer McLean. Charles Marshall Virginia murder wilmer confederate army Parma Graham Bell Florence Buzzfeed woolmer Napoleon professor casella
Gettysburg with Jim Hessler and Eric Lindblade

Based On a True Story

00:00 sec | 5 months ago

Gettysburg with Jim Hessler and Eric Lindblade

"Hello and welcome to based on a true story, the podcast that compares your favorite Hollywood movies with history. Now if you're listening to this on the day, it's released then today July first marks the one hundred and fifty seventh anniversary of the battle of Gettysburg. That battle took place between July first in July third in eighteen, sixty three during the American civil war. So that's why today we're going to learn about the epic four and a half hour long film from Nineteen, ninety-three simply called Gettysburg to. To help us separate fact from fiction in the movie, I'm excited to be joined by Jim, Hessler and Eric Linden late. Jim and Eric are both. Gettysburg licensed battlefield guides, and are the CO hosts of the battle of Gettysburg podcast Jim has also written multiple books on the battle, including sickles, Gettysburg which one the Gettysburg Civil War Roundtables Book Award as the most outstanding work on the Gettysburg campaign. Before we bring Jim and Eric on the line. No, let's set up our game to truth and a lie. If you're new to the show, here's how it works. I'm about to say three things. Two of them are true, and that means one of them as a lot I ready. Okay, pay their number, one one percent of all battlefield casualties steering near American civil war were caused by bayonets. Number two winning the battle of Gettysburg did not guarantee victory for winning the American civil war. Number three. The Union planned the battle of Gettysburg to push the confederacy out of Pennsylvania. Got Him. Okay now as you're listening to our story today, your challenges to find the two facts scattered somewhere throughout the episode, and by a simple process of elimination. You'll be able to find out which one is alive. And of course we'll do a recap at the end of the episode to see. How will you did? All right now it's time to connect with Jim Eric to chat about the historical accuracy of. Gettysburg. After the opening credits, the movie sets up the battle of Gettysburg with some voiceover, according to the movie it in June of Eighteen, sixty, three General Robert E. in the confederate army of northern. Virginia, Invade Union territory with an army of seventy thousand men toward the end of June eighty thousand soldiers in the Union army head through Maryland, an independent in pursuit of the confederate army. Then the movie suggests the civil war has been raging for two years up until this point, and also that generally knows about a letter offering peace that is planned to be delivered to Abraham Lincoln the president soon after generally defeats the Union Army. Can you give us a little more historical context around the way? The movie sets up the battle of Gettysburg and the size of these two armies meeting in Pennsylvania Eric. Let's start with you. Yeah I think the movie. Sort of takes a very complex of and trust can distill it down as quick as they can I, think also. Sort of making Gettysburg seem almost the climactic point of the American civil war. And if you knew nothing of the war, he just watch the movie you'd think. The South is just winning victory after victory after victory, and certainly that's the case in Virginia. But elsewhere not so much. It's really by eighteen sixty three unmitigated disaster for the confederacy and a lot of areas so robbery Lee's army by this was to become the best hope the confederacy has. Lee is going to bring with him about seventy five thousand soldiers, the army that the GONNA numbering close to one hundred thousand, so they get the numbers a little off, but but for the most part these are to. Equally matched arms. Lease out number two three to one or anything like that so anything to add to the gym. A couple of things first of all before I answer a single question. I WanNa make it clear that I love this movie like a big sloppy shaggy dog, so even though it was going to seem to the listeners. You know that we're going to spend the next hour. Kind maybe bashing it a little bit Eric while I don't want to speak for Eric but I think Eric movie as much as I do. So having said that you know to Eric's point about complexity, Robert e Lee reality had a number of complex reasons for wanting to north wanted to take more out the south. He wanted to rob fresher away from threaten on points. Obviously, he wanted to live off the mortgage. And certainly I do think Lee was looking to fights in a battle. But the idea that they present in the movie you know a ladder has been drawn up. There's a ladder. Somebody's got in their pocket and so he's GonNa. Walk into Lincoln's office and put it on his desk. It's very dramatic. But there's no real credible credible evidence that that was you know significant factor in and we S- plans Derek is. For do we know reliable source that awesome about said letter offering peace is ever found. The reasons that we wants to invade, ours are more complex than was presented in the movie. Hollywood for you. Yeah, that's that's true. That's true. Now I know a lot of people. Listening to this may not there outside the United States can you give a little more geographical context around? At this point in the American civil war, where where are the army's? I mean obviously Gettysburg in Pennsylvania, but is that like right along the the lines of the north? And South is at this point in the war, or had those lines kind of shifted for where those were considered. It depends on how you define the south If you would look at based on areas that maintain the institution of slavery, then the border would be the Pennsylvania Maryland. But. Maryland remained loyal to the north. Even though they have the institution of Slavery surreally you then draw that line down to the border of Maryland and Virginia's sort of the. The dividing line of course by eight hundred sixty one northern troops occupy northern Virginia so you draw that line even further south so really look at what is these territorial borders? It really depends on where armies are operating win. There's not really sort of define geographic line that we think of today. You know again I would add to that in terms of Maryland. One of the things Robert de Lis trying to do both when he when he moves north in eighteen, sixty two, and only comes north again in eighteen, sixty three is trying to win. It also speak the hearts and minds of the Maryland population. Speaking of the movie we see Jeff Daniels Character Colonel Joshua Lawrence. Chamberlain and he's the Kernel of the Twentieth Maine Regiment. He gives a speech to some hundred and twenty men who were mutineers from the second main. And the movie explains that those one hundred and twenty men thought that they were signing up to fight with the second main only, but they actually signed a three year contract one of the men. Tells Chamberlain that he's fought in like eleven engagements up to this point, so you can tell it's not about I. don't care what contract is signed. Basically, they're done right there. They've done their fair share. They're done. They're not gonNA fight anymore. And so the army doesn't really know what to do with them. At least according to the movie portrays things. But apparently chamberlain is authorized to use whatever force necessary, including potentially shooting these one hundred and twenty men if they don't fight. There's this dramatic Dino's does great acting job. I think giving this speech to these men. He offers a chance at you. Don't have to join in the battle, but if we lose this fight, we're going to lose the war. So. Is this storyline that the movie portrays about the second main, and and that speech that Jeff Daniels character gives in the movie. The hard heads, so the second name that essentially did happen. You know these guys from the second main needed new home. It didn't happen though right on the eve of the battle. It happens I forget the exact middle of May I want to say or something like that I said Jeffrey Chancellor's Villa's. I remember correctly that notion of having to integrate is into the second main does happen. Again you know the movie. They portrayed as happening literally on the morning. July first of coercion that builds up the drama. How Chamberlain going to integrate all these all? He's hard some. The. Timing is definitely compress, but again you see that a lot in Hollywood so. What do you think Eric Chamberlain? A rousing speech like that. What are you saying? Maybe he did. Baby didn't all John. Chamberlain was ignited or a tour after the war, he gave a number of speeches in Nollie his career in academia, but also article for Governor of Maine So this is the guy that probably could give a good speech now whether or not he gets everybody together and gives them this. Sort of immoral of US sermon if you will. We. Don't know that, but certainly if anybody could give a speech, chamberlain was more than capable of if he was not. A young guy was noticed not being. Able to give a speech, if necessary. It's a good point whether it actually happened. It, certainly and character, but again you know the thing to which we touched on the in the opening this idea again. We're fighting the climactic battle. You know man. Oh, man, we lose this one. The war's over scenario now we're like what fifteen minutes into the movie and we've already heard that two or three times again, trying to set the stage you know and he's Super Bowl. Laver wins this one. It's going to take it all. That's definitely what I took away from that. At that point was the entire war hangs in the balance on this battle, especially after that speech, and I think Lee certainly fell a victory on northern soil. Could go a long way into possibly leading to confederate independent. Now were probably not gonNA. Have a you know George Washington meets Cornwallis at Yorktown type situation where the army surrenders. But there was political pressure Lake Administration, the summer and sixty three to in the war over two hundred thousand Americans had already died to this point and in April eighteen, sixty three federal drafts had been implemented in the north so. Many ways eighteen, sixty three in summer, is not that far removed from say nine, hundred, sixty eight over the Vietnam conflict. The war is kind of hanging else little bit, so if we can win a victory in the north, certainly would increase the odds poss with southern independence, but I wanNa then count. Tamp down the Liens Gettysburg. This war's over. That's not the case. Yeah exactly what you know, what I always tell people on tours began it would more than anything. It would be potentially potentially forcing Lincoln from a political perspective again getting back to the movie you notice opening of we're gonNA destroy the army and put a letter on his DASS. It Oh isn't isn't practical really in eighteen, sixty three or really at any other I'm Lawrence aspects. You know you arnie's quote on poking destroyed. The army of foaming even if they skinny the numbers down a little bit of metal. So. It sounds like generally was going for a huge moral victory. Almost you know winning this battle in the north. Correct me if I'm wrong, but almost hoping that this moral victory might help push the north to almost sued for peace I mean not necessarily right away or or any of that, but get that ball rolling. If people are starting to be tired of the war than maybe this can help. Further that cause does that sound like maybe the storyline there I think that's the best case scenario I mean certainly people in the north as you said are tired of war. The Democrats were obviously pressuring Lincoln to You know to get out of it which you see in the subsequent election. Let's probably best case scenario even in a worst case scenario if Lee can. Deal military victory or defeat the army, the mic Lee can even just disrupt the Union army's plans for the summer, and an alliance says that in a couple of occasions Gettysburg. People didn't do anything for the rest of the summer and even from. Perspective perspectives Mac and be considered victory I. Think we have to look at what victory is from south. The North has to win the south just. Doesn't have to lose, so the metrics are different. There in the south doesn't have to win this. They don't lose and so I think Lee. Certainly looking at that, keep in mind making sixty three Pennsylvania is the second largest state in the union. A magical, the political impact of losing a battle in the second largest. In your nation. How's that going to affect Lincoln? Say Next November with his election, so we can see. Play out and often I tell people until I. You don't have to win world battlefield. You can just as easily win it politically and I think that's really what Lee is looking at eighteen, sixty three. The odds of winning militarily are down, but the odds of winning political. You're certainly up in his favor when he embarks the for campaign. That's another common I always make too about the importance of Pennsylvania. What I remind people on Tours is that you know Lee Captures Harrisburg or not? South? Pennsylvania in eighteen sixty three. That's a big deal. If he captured Harrisburg today, he could keep it. We don't want it, but in eighteen sixty was a big deal. Heading back to the movie. Sam, Elliott's character General John Buford. He's leading his coury near the outskirts of Gettysburg, and he's the first to come across the confederate army as they're marching the movies dialogue says that with the number of men they see the confederate army from afar. They thought they were headed for Harrisburg, but there's too many troops to be a raiding party. So they determined that Lee has turned and there's a brief mentioned from General Buford where he mentions taking two brigades of men into town. But then right after this. Then there's some text onscreen and puts us about fourteen miles from Gettysburg in tiny town Maryland as chamberlain and his men in the Union army arrive in that town. Then we see General Buford and his men arriving in Gettysburg, but they don't stay in town. Buford leads his men to farmland just outside town where he surveys what I can only assume I. Don't remember the movie ever mentioning this, but I'm assuming he's surveying this that he is predicting. This is going to be the site of a battle like this is the site of the battlefield. He's kind of looking at it ahead of time. So the idea that I get from the movie as I'm watching this here is that the Union army basically arise I, and they position themselves around the town of Gettysburg so they can have a strategic foothold in the area when the confederate army gets there. Is that true what I can tell people about the movie versus story? Is I do? The basics of this movie are accurate sizing basics, others colleagues who disagreed with me and say my God. No none of it's accurate. That's not true they. Or accurate, so what really happened? He'll rise in the Gettysburg area on June. Thirty s geese sees confederate's approaching from the West some guys. Eric might be familiar with. Confederate approaching from the last that you'd sides sort of break awesome. Combat on the thirtieth. What you get is you realize is in fats are massing to the west of jets, verge, and likewise the confederates now. Something is going on, and he's and that's kind of what happens, and that's going to set. The stage for the is is gliding on on July. First in reality, one of my biggest grievances with the movie is really none of that is really explained in the movie i. mean they then sorted then segue into. These ulcer Walter, Taylor talking about apple butter and stop Jackson. Buttermilk can and all this stuff you? The movie makes same like confederate's are going into. The depressants. Michigan owns supplies and all that stuff I guess is sentenced. To the other part of your question. One thing is I? Say you know we'll see marriage says I think the movie kind of overplays or fighting a high growl, Buford his thumping his chest, and say in the high ground, but they're going to have the high ground in that that's a powerful mythology, because that is pervaded itself in the full extent, literature people come to the the battle. A battle was fought for the high ground, not any high ground but Sonic Ralph. About so again I'll go back leg opening the basics right and I think they kind of mess up a whole lot of details, the challenge, the movie Gettysburg is how all over the place the time line is. You go from daylight darkness the combined things, so it doesn't really give you a glow by blow. County might take with John Buford is does he probably notice the high ground around Gettysburg? Absolutely, he's a professional older. But I think Buford's more concerned with the ten roads that intersect in round the town. Way Networks are criminal in a military campaign. He's also in communications of General John Reynolds the left wing commander of the army of Tomac so he's getting information back gathering information as well. Are They Buford under sensors confrontation, but I don't think he's saying Gettysburg's. We're going to put our. FLAG GROUND WE'RE GONNA. Make Our stand here. July first very fluid situation. It's really not until the mid to late afternoon. That really it's looking like this grand battles going to be fought here again he's. Very well could have just been a very sharp engagement, west and north of the town July first the army's withdrawal. We talk about something else. That doesn't happen. To that point, one of the greatest fallacies I think this movie is. You can come away from this movie thinking John Buford Zeal. Hancock Joshua Chamberlain, run the army of the Potomac in reality. There's a guy named George Meade. Who is commander of the Union army and by June thirtieth July first. You know really well into the late afternoon early evening for me had not decided where he was going to fight that battle. There's things about folly back Maryland along the line. Pigeon and things of that nature, but Gettysburg is an important crossroads only say union army, but frankly for the confederates to that's one of the reasons why the consider your comment. Acerbic because. They're moving over Apple Jacks. You know like like they seem to be moving. I saw the movie I'm not. School threw throughout that caveat, every ten or fifteen minutes in case, somebody tunes, delayed or something like. Gettysburg is the movie we love to hate and hate the love. Yeah, let's get superfan lies in shoutout for that. That was exactly at the movie. We love to hate love. We love you license. You're listening out there. It's great. They know you can pick it apart, but still in love it for what it is like just knowing that you know, it's not gonna be. Entirely accurate by any means, but you know it can still be a a good movie as a movie. Let's be clear out something. We didn't say this is a good movie. We said we loved it. We didn't necessarily say. Square block through. Fair point good good catch. I appreciate that good catch. You're talking about how the actual battle started. In the way, the movie shows this. We're on the confederate side and we see a messenger deliver a message to Martin Sheen's version of generally that's general. Hell is going to be taking his men into the town of Gettysburg to get some shoes generally clarifies that he doesn't want any conflict. Until all their troops are consolidated in the Messenger assures him that don't worry general. Hill doesn't expect any opposition. They're just some local militia, not going to be a big deal. And then soon after General Long Street arrives, tells generally that he saw coury, so it's not just local militia, and as they're talking, we can hear some artillery firing in the distance. Generally asks for General Heath. Who they say is the most forward commander I believe in the camera cuts to Gettysburg where now we have union troops cannons at the confederate soldiers. General Buford that we talked about earlier. He's watching from top in town and he smiles as he remarks the you know. He's got the best ground positions you talking about the high there again. And that the confederates only hitting with. So as I was watching this. I got the idea that okay. The confederates are going to choose need supplies. You know they. They need these things and they. Were not expecting the union soldiers there they almost got the lack of a better term ambushed, and that's that's basically how all started is that how the battle of Gettysburg actually started? Yes, and no the battle. Gettysburg is what typically. Military historians virtues a meeting engagement simply put the army's run into each other collide. The idea that the movie kinda creates the Henry heeds just sort of. Baubles into union troops. Heath was aware of a union presence of some kind in his front today before. Now. What the nature of that is bat was to be seen. I always like to tell people that on June thirtieth. He sends one brigade towards Gettysburg. On July first, he sends entire seven thousand man division. So. It's well as trust but verify situations. And what we then saying, you know the of long streets already there awfully long shirt doesn't arrive on the battlefield Gettysburg until. noon. Though confederates already driven union troops back. So that kind of once again the odd little time wine the have, but it does kind of make it seem confederation this kind of ambling into this unbeknownst to them when the reality is, they have a better sense of it now. They'd have perfect. They you know chlorine outlined. The shoe thing is pervasive in remember the movie. The movie Gettysburg is based on a Pulitzer Prize. Winning novel the killer angels, which dates back to the mid nineteen seventies, and although I wasn't around back then. Sort of an earlier era, the idea that battles fought overshoes was more more pervasive and sort of the enlightened era that we live in today. We kind of understand You know all these other side. So it's not surprising to me that they bring shoes into the movie script, I would almost be surprised if they didn't do it again. Some of the other basics are generally. There was Henry Heath leading confederate advance. Yes, he go bumbling into it. No, he'd surprised. Yes, and a lot of that first thing. They do a lot of else coping again things. Six eight hours do occur in the movie, just kind of happened with one or two currier, these sitting out source and two messengers come up and kind of explain whole thing. So again a little bit. A little bit of telescoping. The first day in the movie is probably my least favorite part because I don't think they do justice, too. Big Or importance, a real first day was, but you know I guess when you're already talking a four hundred sixty minute movie something Scott and Grow and that kills me because. I am a first day. Guy That's by favorite day of the ballots have favorite day of a battle. But you know it's. To be people. The first day may respects, but Y- casualties inflicted by the two armies. If the first day was a battle just on its own. It would rank around the thirteenth bloodiest battle, the American civil war. Just Day. And so I think he does get overlook. It's not this little skirmish. I mean it's arguably some of the heaviest fighting the battle gangs. Gettysburg takes place in the first day, but the one thing that movie I stay, I think does do is make star out of John. Buford you've heard was not again. If you go back to the literature of the nineteen seventies nineteen, sixties, nineteen fifties job new third was not the quote. Unquote big started yesterday, and so influential e. this movie has really indoctrinated a generation of historians again. His students that John Buford is the Niamh John Do for saves the Union. Not Buford in any way, shape or form Sam Elliott does a great job for trading. Things Sam Elliott has urged Virgil herb into stone. Point the you're looking at influence out. Does this movie influence people and it's certainly given a lot of people and I'll see the impression that job you safe day on July first got his. You know we like to say that. Maybe partially trope. It's a little more complicated than that. was there anybody who was the hero of the day? If Not Buford, what else can say is, there's a tendency. To say this. Is the hero the event? There's multiple euros. The Union victory at Gettysburg is a team effort. It's collaborative. and. With Buford do I think he did this overwhelmingly heroic job here, Gettysburg no I don't. Doesn't mean that he's not competent. He did his job and sometimes in a critical situation like that. That's the most important thing. Do Your job. Does. He really go above and beyond not necessarily, but he didn't have to. He did what he was asked to do. And he did it able, and about the time needed to get control the battlefield. You're talking about heroes. We could talk about the the common enlisted man the Ben Crippen World. You know shaking their fists at those approaching rebels as they're coming in. Certainly, the Union Victory Gettysburg is a team effort, but there's a lot of difficult members of our team, and not everybody brings their their a game. Daddy's Burgan you see some examples about July first with guys like. Francis are low, but I think of Winfield Scott Hancock's rise to prominence and on the the real afternoon evening July first is the union forces were rallying on Cemetery Hill? It was anti who arrived on the seal and health. Rally the troops and you know. Don't really see so much vadym! What you do, see a lot of anti taxes. We don't subs AIDS earlier. You're talking about how the confederate soldiers pushed the union soldiers back initially, and we get that sense in the movie I. Think some of the initial reports that generally gets in the movie are that the Union soldiers are retreating back into Gettysburg, and so he orders artillery to fire in the Hale. He sends Major Taylor to deliver message to general you'll that. He wants general to take the hill beyond the town, if practical, so they can get some higher ground, and give me go back to that same sort of concept of higher ground, and he wants that tale to be captured by nightfall. Meanwhile, we see general long streets mentioned to generally something along the lines of how their strategy has always been to act defensively to keep the army intact, but now we can see that generally wants to initiate the offensive. You know you've got the enemy on the run. You don't stop now. Keep going. And Long Street reminds lead. May Have pushback to core, but we got five more coming, so is it common for the confederate army to operate with more of a defensive mindset like we get that idea here in the movie? And then it was changed generally decides. We got him on the Ron. We're going to keep pushing out much of that actually happened. By Gettysburg, Lee's been command around a year of the army and all the Virginia. If we look in his campaigns, his first campaign with the army the seven days around Richmond. It's primarily offensive for the confederates hurling their forces that George McClellan's army to drive from the gates of Richmond. After success seven days Lee begins to move into northern Virginia. We Have A. Initially with stars, tactical fence, but really strategic offensive at second MANASSAS. Lee then bills that victory goes into Maryland once again offensive actions. You'll fight primarily defensive battle. At Antietam a more out of necessity than any desire on his part. There is the great. Defensive Fredericksburg then lay turned around a few months later and on the offensive again a chance to fill so lee is an offensive minded general Lee is not a guys. Sit Back and give the enemy the initiative. He's GonNa take it to his opponent, and that's what he does, and that's offer leads LE- into Pennsylvania and summer relations sixty three. Sedan we're allowed this comes from is again going back to the novel the killer angels. One of the primary sources that Michael Sharon used. James Long streets memoirs from Manassas to addicts. Maybe, some folks are familiar with along long story long straight was a very controversial individual in south after the war, primarily for political reasons, but also because long straight after the fact, when on record is criticizing Lee. And so one of the things. Long straight says in his writings. Is that Cryer to beginning this? You know this great raid. The Pennsylvania Long Street alleges that he Li essentially agreed on. We would only fight the battles and things bat nature, and it's because of the assertion by long, street in his memoirs that carries over then into Shiraz novel, and then ultimately Robert Maxwell script. It was sort of really position the grades. Dramatic conflict is a confederate Eddie's. Is this supposed levers? Long Street thing we wanting to attack long street, wanting to fight on the defense. I'm not saying that didn't happen. I think there's some internal historical evidence to suggest it did. But what I think is a problem with the movie. In that regard is really sort of or trade, and again the novel to I should have, but really sort of portrays Robert. Lee is almost an unhinged of session to attack. You know the is all knowing long street. He knows where all the Yankee core are. Any knows when a high ground is, you know lease. Just kind of a lot of ways almost is off his rocker in just obsessed on making these suicidal attacks and again that is now very. Masive in the Gettysburg Nephrology. People here who say Jesus lives Lee so crazy. Widen any listen to launch. you know, and that's sort of again become. One of these things inserted a demon. Property Lee the guy who used to be the Mardell ran and beyond reproach now it's very fashionable Nachtwey and the killer angels. In the movie daddy's Berg later all for sure. Yeah, that's very different narrative than I expect than I thought when I saw the movie, and it was just expected that they were even more defensive like because they did. Stumble upon each other the way the movie goes in like they weren't expecting this, and so it was oh well now we just gotTa. Survive. Before, we go on with that. I JUST WANNA. Call Out Internet. Trolls have accused me in the past of lost sky. You know for quote unquote. Defending Lee I'm from New York. I'm not a loss caused guy. I'm not defending league, but what's the truth is the truth that I like long. Street but again it I think. I think three things away from this movie elevates the role of John Buford and elevates the role Joshua Chamberlain in the movie really serves to rehabilitate chains long straights Asian jams. This offensive Genius Long Street himself at number of battles are he was very strong offense, but he ended trees him as a guy. Just Watson fights at simple. Lee is not unhinged Gettysburg but I. Think Leeann last year while he has been successful. There's a lot of caveats those victories. He dropped. Yes, he drives clown from around Richmond, but he does destroy McLellan's army number opportunities voss way to do that. at times during the seven days second Manassas. The Union escapes back to Washington Fredericksburg to get back. Cross Rambam can't crush them and it chances Ville. They cross back the river again. He doesn't get to deliver a decisive blow. He's looking for so that's what Lee is really I think looking for is decisive. Blow, liaise, `let's Go and beg here. He's not looking for just another tactical victories, looking for a decisive strategic victory, and that's why I, think drives a lot this thinking. Now let's take a step back from some of the strategy side of it and almost get Kinda put in the context of what this was like because it's very different from. Thinking will a lot of people today we'll see movies and a lot of movies are going to be like world war. Two movies or something like that and battles are just going all the time right and at the end of the first day in this in the movie we see. Everybody stops fighting like it's OK ended the first day the fights over. We're going to figure out what we're going to do. The next day soldiers gathered around the campfire. Is that kind of the way that the this battle wins that they would take a break at night and then let's start back up nine in the morning. Maybe little exaggeration there on my part, but. What I find is the general public that I deal with often sayings fighting you know fighting ends at nightfall, because of Gentlemen's agreement, you know these old fashioned gentlemen, and shake hands, and agreed to greet defy now site until until morning and of course. That's not accurate. What you do see in general is diminished combat at sundown, because they don't have the technology to fight it by for the most part, the fighting does and when it gets start, because you can no longer see you can no longer your formations and things of that nature. Now again there are examples of nightime sliding during the civil warriors, even as Battle of Gettysburg is seventy to show up. Yeah I think at times the civil war. Has Been. It always kind of glosses over the brutality. Of the war, we know the numbers, but we don't think about just how brutal it was and I. Often tell people tours. With civil war needs. Is a scene similar to the opening scene of saving, Private Ryan. Warn just unvarnished, ugly nature, guys, brain, getting splattered hearing bones, cracking limbs, getting blown off. That's the battle of Gettysburg. It's not just this you get shot. Say something profound before you die. It's you're getting hit in the arm. By fifty eight caliber musket balls corner shoulder pieces. That doesn't get portrayed. Really Gettysburg for the most part is relatively bloodless as a movie. It's sanitized version. I think that really sticks in. People's mind is how they view. The civil wars war combat It's every bit as ugly. Modern combat is not uglier frankly. That's a great point and the problem is and I'm even thinking this as we record this, you know the history channel just ended last night three part series on grant. The other the other side of that coin is often when Hollywood whether it be movie or even documentaries, and frankly documentary makers should know better, too. Many of these civil war battles movies though also often look like you know. The wwe always tell people in a movie. It's an. Every civil war battle in a movie will end with a fistfight. You know, forget about the Napoleonic linear tactics and formations, every civil and you see at Gettysburg. At least you know little, round top PICKETT's charge, but every civil war movie ends with guys. Just, running into each other and screaming and punching and club each other with muskets about and of course they did have that. Did. Have that realize, but I would love to see a movie whereas for God's Sakes once we just do both the. TOPIX because that's what the civil law. And you can blaze away at each other with the rifle muskets for twenty minutes on film s you want, but again every battle doesn't end with guys just running and jumping on top of each other, and kick each other in the groin, and all that stuff also began it or you see a couple unfortunate saints. Eddie Star in the movie I should say. Now that you say yeah is like you. You see them charging and okay. Now now it's the phase of the battle where we put on the bayonets and get close combat and okay. Now it's the phase of the battle where. Know. You're beyond the the van at all right now I guess, let's let's go at it. You know and I hadn't thought about that until you mentioned it and I'm glad you mentioned the bayonet, because that's what people think of how you would fight. One percent of all battlefield casualties inflicted during the civil war. One percents was inflicted by bayonets. Allow. I would imagined that'd be a lot more. They never close. He'll usually you didn't get close enough or in the mid. If you do have hand to hand combat, frankly cracking guy's skull open for butter your rifles lot easier stabbed him. And I think that's once again. Go back to this point. The civil war people want to sort of warm and cuddly war. It's not. It's it's ugly. It's brutal and so it's in civil wars how we want the war to. As opposed to what it actually was. Again you see examples in the movie Gettysburg. The part of that too permeates from I think the whole brother against brother, saying being overplayed and again the movie daddy's bird, although there's some great scenes it. Oh the notion of Hancock in armistead, you know. Did these guys know each other? Yes, were they friends? Yes, did they spend the entire battle of Gettysburg mooning over each other and crying over each other like they do in the movie, No but again you know you sort of set up a novel and then a movie. Scrap of you know the guys on each side. You're almost like brothers and they're crying. Crying over each other and you know, screw the fighting I'M GONNA go over there under a flag of truce. Just see you know kind of thing and and things like that and again it. All Bill SORTA perpetuates this idea that they would say quote. Unquote Gentleman's or he fought by guys who if they were brothers doggone that they could ben close enough? That's something that I think from the civil war as a whole. It's a lot of people. See that as it was you know. Friends fighting against friends and family against family, and so I wonder I'm thinking out loud here if you know they're kind trying to. Portray almost that overall civil war aspect of a lot of these people knew each other on both sides, and so if they weren't fighting against each other will be friends, and so they're trying to find characters in there in the movie to portray that aspect. Of overall a lot of that is true. They did know each other they did serve together in Mexico. They did go to west point together, but two and a half years into the war you know. Are they really saying? Hey, Eric over on the other side did on thinking. They're planning tactics and strategy and stuff like that and again we got it. You know it's not a documentary. It's Hollywood. It's sabotaging characters and you know from Jerry. Does that amber, so say something nice about. We talk and I think the movie reinforces the idea that the civil war in many ways is. The Grand Kiro epic an American history. And I think it's something that you know. Almost you had written by the Greeks of most in Gettysburg. Climactic moment so you're trying to find think about Greek epics. There's these little lessons that are trying to be totally greater issues at play, and that's what we we do so subconsciously with Gettysburg so warned certainly the movie. Gettysburg just reinforces that do I think handcock thinking about armistead durn's battle, absolutely not and Hancock, would you everything in his power to absolutely Nyah late armstead his troops, they come to us from. There's no quarter going to be given here and ours. That would do the same to handcuff. Friendship out the window. Continuing on with the battle, as far as the movie is concerned, we get onto day to which would be Thursday July second, eighteen, sixty three, and this is where we see general Lee is ordering his troops at the beginning of the day. And that's when they start to realize you know there's this ridge that runs around Gettysburg. Right and we're starting to get this idea that okay. Here's going to be another big part of the battle, and at the end of the Ridge. There's two large hills. Let around top in big round top. According to the movie there's no union troops on those. And So lead decides to order his men to attack those two hills. There's a line of dialogue in the movie where Lee Tells Long Street that. He wants this to be the final battle of the war Ryoji. Yeah exactly you know, so he he half expected general meat and the bulk of the Union army to be gone by the time they woke up in the morning that this was not gonna be a big conflict after all. Lee doesn't know this in the movie, but as viewers we get to see chamberlain. His men are given orders to defend the hills, and they're told that you're the last line of defense so similar type of storyline that we had earlier where okay this entire war rests on and okay well, if the entire war rests on this battle, you guys are the last line of Defense on these hills, so therefore it just adds those steaks to defending these two hills. So how much of that strategy that we see where the confederate to try to take the two hills essentially trying to? As movie explains it get around the union positions and. Defeat them from from that angle. How much of that strategy was actually at play? Liaise try to driving troops off of a hill. It's just not little round saw. It's so Terry Hill. Center Union line the movie. compresses and greatly simplifies the confederate plan on July second. There's a lot that's left out that I think. Once again, you gotta cut things out, and it's not documentary, but you know I think this idea that Lee is looking to July, second to the day that he so tired of war and violence that the only way to end it by inflicting immense amount of carnage on opponent. Yes, there's a lot goes on. There's a guy we adore named Dan sickles. That's never really talked about the plays. A role in July second long shirt gets to lay get into position There's an attack on the northern end of the line. Ron culp sold cemetery. Hill doesn't really get talked about so it is a very simplified view, but lease objective on July second is cemetery, Hill and cemetery rich. He says himself is report would agree on that and so what what Lee does, which that again the movie Kinda Sorta gets right what lead does. He does direct Long Street to basically attacked union laugh with an idea of they driving up and dislodging the union forces. From Cemetery Hill cemetery rage so little round top. By itself is never specified as as an objective. What happens though? The Guy that are mentioned union general. Dan Struggles from New York. Without orders from general need moves forward in kind of reshapes and takes the whole union less legout, -sition so long streets back does begin at about four o'clock in the afternoon. The Union last slide doesn't look really the way we expected to look or the way George. Mean expected it looked. So long straight goes, INTO ACTION Really with a lot of. Chaos and confusion surrounding. What's going on on the Union last? which again you know, it was going to happen in warfare anyways, but while all this is going on Chamberlain's commanding officer. Strong Vincent, who we see briefly in the movie. Vincent decides he is going to occupy little round top, and put the twentieth into position there as the confederates are now moving around the union last Zeh, and upcoming or little round top, and yes, they tried to dislodge the twentieth so again. Part is accurate to you know to that extent, but again the idea that anybody who's really looking at little round top. It's okay if you roll up to twentieth, a all flying is GonNa is an and the whole army is going to be on the road on. That wasn't happening, and frankly it would have been totally unrealistic and cross. You know one of the highlights in the movie. For many years. People came here. They wanted to see where Chamberlain thought they wanted to save. Thought. Need greatly elevated. The status of the twenty is hanes. It also cinematic perspective it's it's various active. It's just not all that accurate. Alabama's route another county outsource source. Somebody bashes me there. We're not trashing chamberlain I like. Joshua Glenn I liked the. Name. Could Chamberlain story is he is told to hold his ground. Any holds his ground acid story. He's era. Let me say that again. Joshua Chamberlain is a here. It just doesn't win the battle of Gettysburg single-handed. Could Kinda SORTA come. Back. You mentioned sickles moved the left flank. was that something that he did because he knew about the confederate positions, and and kind of anticipated that, or was that almost like just a pure coincidence just happened upon that while they could argue with that for a hundred and sixty six whatever year we're up to. The long story short is. Thought. The Peach Orchard, which again is an important position at the Gettysburg battlefield, which doesn't really play into the movie at all, but each orchard along the Evans for road cycles thought that would be a better position for his troops and artillery. He also did. Thank confederates we're going to attack is swank, and because of that people's for there's some some merits singles argument, but he does it without orders from general meade and that really disrupts so out. Out of general fans, which again you don't tell you the movie you know that's a big dramatic reason. Why Strong Vincent the Twentieth Maine End up going a little round top, and you don't get any of that drama in the movies that would be kind of the deal. They mentioned that in the Basel that we that would maybe interesting. Onscreen land sickles screwed up. We gotTA. We gotta go out there and they really don't do that. And Desire Again I love Dan segments to see Sehgal's on the big screen echoing what Jim said about the twentieth, Maine and Chamberlain what they did was incredibly heroic on July second. But over time they've oma spin. Mythology is there was deified it's not just winning the battle by making their stand and making their charge. They win the battle of Gettysburg by doing so the Union wins the civil war. Therefore, we're able to become the nation. We Are you know. Basically you can draw a line out from little round top. All the way to you know if it wasn't for chamber will be speaking. German right now. That of course leads to blow back as well. There's an entire cottage industry of people now. That just Bash Chamberlain all the time. You know which is unfair. Never said he was the great heroes battle. He never asked throughout. Others have made him that, but never did it himself, and even if he did embellish a little bit in his post, war memoirs guess what every Civil War Guy who wrote a memoir embellishes record. That's what human beings do, and it's so so yes, Zach said there's cottage industry that likes to bash. Chamberlain and you know what you're not gonna get that from, us. 'cause we, we're not, we're not. We all we all WanNa be hero of the story, we all. And and I think what happens with Chamberlain. Of all characters in the movie chamber on I think is the most relatable to the average filmgoer. I don't know what it's like to be. Robert I didn't graduate second. Class. A West Point I. Don't know if that's like. I can relate to a college professor. I can relate to a teacher and I think what Shabelle and symbolizes for people is the hope that if you were in a desperate situation that you could rise to the occasion? And make a difference. And, so that's. Why people identify so much chamberlain more so than I think other characters in the movie, but it's a great story, you know. I mean a year before the battle chambers teaching philosophy and religion at Bowdoin College in Maine. Chain was not the only citizen soldier. We have battlefield. In fact, the majority of them were. But sharing. Just finds himself. Historically the right place right time that people are drawn to. Why you mentioned earlier not to get too far outside this movie in particular, but when you mentioned saving private Ryan and the mention of Chamberlain being a teacher, while the hero in Saving Private Ryan Tom Hanks character, he's also a teacher, and it makes him very very relatable. It reinforces the idea of. I'm doing a job. I'm not looking to be a hero and doing the best I can with the hand that was dealt to me and sometimes that's all we can do in license happens on a battlefield. Sometimes you get a good position other times you know. And sometimes it's just a very fickle difference between the two. Very well said. Moving onto the last day of the battle as far as the movie is concerned July third, of course, they wouldn't have known when the sun went up that that was going to be the last day. At least as far as movie is concerned, it doesn't seem like they have any idea that is going to be the last eight a battle out dinner up to you, but somebody say that doesn't Garnett or some. This is going to be the last day so. The movie guys are. All soldiers news giving the final day because early in more, the second ominous music was piped in over the battlefield to let them know this is a serious day. They need to get their heads in the game. My favorite part of the movie. Along long planning on July. Third is my favorite part of the movie. Is it Andrea percent accurate again? Probably not it's my favorite part is movies. Don't be dissing the ominous music. I like that. But as the movie explain things at seminary rage, generally orders General Long Street to take general Pickett's and laid a charge to the heights in the center, and the plan is to split the federal. Line Long Street says there are three federal core up their their well entrenched, and his men are going to sustain like fifty percent casualties. Little later, he flat out tells me that he believes this attack is gonNA fail. He says this mostly because the men will have to walk a mile over open, they're going to be under constant enemy fire the entire time. But Lee doesn't agree. He says he's never left. The field in command of the enemy retreats, not an option. We're GONNA. Win This. They have command of the high grounds, but in the long slope in the center. They're gonNA break. That's what Lee insists right? He insists that general Pickett's their fresh. They haven't engaged in battle yet, so he's confident that they're going to prevail. And movie takes us to the Union side where Chamberlain's men are relieved by Colonel Rice's Zeman and the movie explains. This as an order to give Chamberlain's men, the well needed rest from the previous day's fighting. Of course, they're asked to move right to the center, which from a moment ago in the movie, it's exactly where General Pickett's GONNA attack, and as I was watching this, I was like okay. This has to be a Hollywood moment where this is just to incidental that for this to be real right that chamberlain men were ordered to rest by moving exactly where. The confederates plan to attack. was at Hollywood moment, or is that actually how it happened? That's Hollywood moment now again it's it's been a long time since I've read the novel, but I'm pretty sure they more or less replay that in the novel and he just point that out. 'cause people like to blame the movie. The movie is following the playbook. It's novel. You know fairly closely, but now you're right it it. Chamberlain's moved on the morning of July third. He's not on little round top. He is moved closer to the center of the Union line, but he's not any you know in the movie. They got put Jeff Daniels stick. Have, you know he's not anywhere near that in reality and you'll notice to you. Don't see the Twentieth Maine. Citing you don't see. And his brother fighting. They're just kind like hanging out the whole time. This is going on so. They from A. Literary me after tile. These people together you can have this great hero chamberlain, just watching from afar, so it's a way to kind of put a bow on it, and but you're there on some Terry Ridge. There's not really close to the angle where they're at so that you will be licensed tank in there but But you know as hey I've never written a Pulitzer. Prize winning novel. So who am I to criticize Michael Sheriff throughout? Thank right yeah. Well! That's a great point that it is following the the novel side, and not as much the historical, so you think from each iteration. It's going to get a little bit further from what actually happened. Yeah. You know not what gets right to some of it you to some of your kind of your introduction to this segment. To what I think, they get right is I do think long street was skeptical about these plants that day. What I don't think they get ride. Is You know again in the movie? The we'll go from ominous music kind of mystical music, mystical music kind of places. Lease stares off into space. Amend just kind of absent mindedly says in the center they will great. No, no robbery Lee thought the what were and what they don't convey is how much he relied on his artillery. He's thought his artillery, but break up the union defenses and therefore make it possible for a lot of long. Long St Century to to Reach Cemetery Ridge fellow. We know it didn't happen. We know the Union. Juan save all the cards and letters for the folks who think I'm going lost ause again because I'm not the point being that the movie just as does a disservice I. Think the property. Leave again as I said earlier. This is a moment where animation seem on in might be a bad idea, but the the real Robbie. Lee Thought with coordination between infantry and artillery, but work and I. DO think we'll on streets up. Does that said I think that part move deaths in other movie? And I think there's sort of dialogue between the two like I said. It's my personal favorite part. Option we view what becomes was Pickett's charge with the with the genius of hindsight. We know it's GonNa, fail so therefore because it failed and too bad idea well, no! I, actually argue I think Lee is actually thinking somewhat logically on July third with the options that he's given. Doesn't mean they're good options. But I, don't think it just this attack the centers and they'll break I. Just know it. God's will. As Lee would say I think it it. It doesn't serve the way because I. Think Lee does think through it logically. We didn't entire episode on July third. What was Lee thinking? Why does he make the? Attack he does and and I. Think you know it's a lot more complex the movie? MAKES OUT TO BE. As I recall it the way the movie is describing it basically. He thinks that the forces at the center are going to be much much less. You mentioned the artillery I think the movie does mention that as well that they want to do a barrage of artillery fire, and then they're going to send. It's called pickets charged, but there's a long streets Trimble Pettigrew and pick it in the movie and his ideas that they're going to be able to break through I. Think the movie listed like fifteen thousand men and so. From that perspective thinking of. If. He's assuming that there's you know five thousand. You're sending fifteen thousand men. The logic there. At least in my mind, it's like okay well. This might actually work. And you know I don't know if Sheri used this. As a sore spot lease, military secretary wrote after the war. That was basically what they were trying to do that. You know initially they were looking at maybe attacking slang again, because a lot of things happened in the morning of July third Lee calls off, and then they started to look for another week void where they got Cemetery Ridge kind of the Center Cemetery Ridge May saw legitimately might be a week. Wind an issue through us at it again supported by artillery, it could potentially bring. So again, they don't get I might take, is they? Don't get the details really right in the movie but I think the big picture for me is is close enough to be an accurate. And I think he can come away from the movie with a general sense of what was going on the charge. Just have Tabuley Jones, playing Lee instead of our gene or something like that. We would come off a whole lot better. And I kind of equate your Pickett's charge. It soil last seconds of football game a team a Hail Mary Pass. If. He does their job. There's a chance it could work, but nobody blocks and quarterback at sacked. It's a failure. And I think that's Kinda. What Lee is looking at people assumed will win. Do Fellow Salts ever work? Will the they work? Otherwise people would not do that. Enough Times where they were successful and Lee is actually. Commission this attack to what was joy third, probably the weakest part of the Union line fat point. It just wasn't enough. Overwhelming force to to carry the position. And the artillery doesn't work. The artillery works. He's got a fighting chance. If it doesn't work, he's got no chance. At the way that the movie shows it, obviously, it doesn't work, but there's it doesn't mention how many people die. Just see a lot of people dying course the fighting turns to bayonets and close range very very quick. You drop to get married somewhere year. Yeah I saw suplex after. Go frame by frame for that one. I remember that. Director Scott. What after the battle, Martin, Sheen's version of generally takes responsibility for this. He says it's my fault. General Pickett's there. He's like Oh you must look to your division pick. It's got tears in his eyes, and he states I generally I have no division, and so that's how the battle of Gettysburg. Officially comes to an end as far as the movie is concerned. How well did the movie do showing how the battle actually ended there after the failure of Pickett's charge I think the movie does a decent job showing how PICKETT's charge. You know the Lee legal been oversold Lysol. It's all my fault, and as you sat encouraging picket or that that stuff did happen. You, know I think if I directed that movie directed. Those seems a little bit differently because I still think, Robert earley comes off strong and forceful enough at that moment in the movie you know people who witnessed this in real life, said this was a hell of an inspiring moment it. Oh, the confederate army is thinking. You know this could be lights out if the unions Yankees counter-attacked. We're not going to be. You have robbery coming out saying boys. It's all my fault. Reform Reform with me. It will be ready and again I don't I don't think the movie does a great job with. But I think again they get bigger kind of useful basic idea, right? Is Far as the end of the that or you know a little bit of different story. Thank you the last time we see lien long straight. They're sitting around a campfire. Both very much looking the worse for wear and the total disintegration of Robert Lee that we have now seen on screen for the last four hours. I think just becomes complete as he on the spurs sowed into tears. I am so very tired. Lee In his lieutenants Jeb Stuart manteca bunch of Stewart. The movie gives a bad rap do Leeann. His lieutenants do a heck of a job stage managing their exit in the retreat from Gettysburg the League was allowing himself the feel disappointed and defeated for a couple of minutes on the evening of thirteen, sixty three, he turned out around pretty quick. Young retrieve, and you know history tells us you know ultimately off the Yankees long enough throughout the army. Yeah I think even the way. If you look at the end, you know way. It's all my salt. He's kind of. doddering old man there whereas long. Bring up the guns get line organized Leah longer both doing that other inventions are doing that and what gets lost. This idea, it's all my fault. What Lee will insides now you need all my good soldiers. Reform helped me get out of this lease immediately. Thinking what the next step is is I think expecting there could be some union troops or cross Satori Ridge very soon. He was going to be prepared, slap. That's a great point that you can't mean. You can't just give up. You gotta bail to get out of it. Right, And I would argue outdoor on record as say this I think Lee's finest moment ever is commander of the army. Northern Virginia is the retreat from Gatti's Berg. Getting his army back into Virginia relatively intact with all the supplies with most of your wounded, it allows the confederacy fight on for almost two more years. Anybody can invade. It's a lot harder to get fifty sixty miles out of enemy territory safely. History is full of examples, think of Napoleon leaving Russia. Of how, just absolutely devastated his army that doesn't have l'armee northern Virginia, and they're beaten. They're not seated. That's a great point. I know we've talked about quite a few different misconceptions that people might have from this movie, but are there any other major myths or misconceptions that you get on your tours from people who have seen this movie that we haven't talked about yet? Yeah! I just touched down Jeb Stuart a moment ago. Because I think that's a blatant, you know the idea that Jon Stewart was up no US ride around getting his name in the papers. You know kind of saying that's the perception. You got the general public a lot Oh. Yes wasn't even use the phrase joyriding like they don't remember anything else from the movie, but then joyriding off on you. So yeah, Jeb Steward joyriding look You know I'm not saying. Stewart's movements send Pennsylvania where the highlights of his career. They were not storms given discretionary orders on how he was supposed to get into into Pennsylvania, and he's trying to reconnect with the army of Northern Virginia. He's not a joy riding which again. That's rats. A really really common s yellow other thing. I'll add to when we're talking about little round top somebody'll Dang us if we don't mention if there's no fill in the movie, you know you have a less lying. Outright flags or heavy fighting going on at called sale, and there are students battles and thinks that. Call, sale the union right flank is even strategically more important than around. So you know we should, we should mention that for the folks to question for me. In terms of myths, we kind of cover for one. There's two real big ones for me. one I think is the the portrayal day one which we already talked about, but I think the other ideas that. All the confederates had to do just move around the Union army. Then it's simple movement that if long street was just listened to, and what's interesting, is Lee actually addresses long streets proposal in his official report what he basically says. We don't have the cavalry to screen it. We don't have the logistical ability to move our entire. Just go line back and also we have to assume that the union army's just GonNa. Let us do it. And so I think Lisa's. It's just not feasible and I've. Had People vehemently argue of me on tours the? It could have been done. There's a difference between what you WanNa, do and what you can do on the battlefield. And I think. Lee realized it's just not. Tour, work, practicable. To do that? Sounds like between that and the charge like a lot of the decisions, especially towards the end of the battle that Lee made were. Between a rock and a hard place here's what I can do. Try To make the best decision you can in less than ideal situation by any means it's Lee grasping for the initiative once again. Louis has the initiative in that campaign up until June twenty eighth. A lot of things happened that changed that lease, attempting to regain the initiative that he never gets again and would thoughts. Your drive in the actually begins reacting to the Union army. Yeah. That's right. I mean as you go from. The thirtieth of first and the second of third you can literally see lease options being removed from table for longer than Pennsylvania and I would echo Eric's point. You know the idea of moving around to the confederate. Ride is not nearly as easy or even possible this. They make it in the movie, but again they WANNA. Give us long street the The all knowing nights. I just say I think Tom Berringer's performance along street is totally underrated I think it's best performance in the movie, but he gets lost under that bad dear. Everybody remembers the Baragan I think. Singalong street does a great job as a barringer does a great job. Thank you so much for coming on a chat about Gettysburg for anyone wanting to learn more about the real history. There's your podcast called the battle of Gettysburg podcast. And, you've also got tours of the battlefield as well so my final question is kind of a two parter. The first part is for someone listening to this. Who wants to walk through history by visiting the battlefield itself? Can you share a little bit of information about your tours? How someone can plan a visit? And then the second part is someone who listening the can't visit, Gettysburg, so they want to hear more from your podcast can give an overview of you podcast where someone can listen. Yes, so I was trying to find our podcast. We are found wherever podcasts are found on numerous platforms. You just type in even just Gettysburg. You'll find this the battle of Gettysburg podcasts. We, recommend follow us. Our social media's well On. We have lots of great discussions. Their interactions for fans. If you can't get Gettysburg I, think we're the next best thing listening to us. Talk about it if you're coming to Gettysburg just a couple of ways that you can get tours. Through the Gettysburg Visitor Center, which is typically open in a noncovic world. Gettysburg Heritage Centre look up the Association of licensed battlefield. Guides these contacts Thirty Association of Licensed Battlefield Guides or is your following Eric My podcast on facebook? You can message us directly, and maybe we could. For. Lots of different ways to do it, but the important thing is. We want to get people to get his loin. We spent like last hour. China bashing the movie. The movie daddy's does well is I think it creates a spirit. Spirit of Gettysburg spirit of Gettysburg is important spirit of why it's. In the mid, nineteen, Ninety S, that movie did get a lot of people come visit us in Gandhi's. He's Oregon I would love to see her as I'm sure I'd love to see a resurgence and. And you know have found. And I think that's what we should thank. For either one know we're bashing picking apples. Shari if nothing else I hopefully it raises awareness. When I started this podcast, it was one of the reasons why I started. was he able to connect with with folks like you? That know that information and being able to. Get that deep dive of information that you could never get from an hour long conversation as great as the information's been so far so much more information out there and I recommend if you are coming together Berg whether you've been here hundreds of times, or it's your first time. You're well-served getting a license battlefield guide We've been here since nineteen fifteen. We are truly the best in the world. Do and helping people connect to and understands battles so if you're coming here? With Allah Guide. And we can tailor the toward almost any special interest you know I. Have I have specialty topics? Eric especially topics our colleagues. Do you know if there's an aspect of the battles? You WanNa dies on or if you just want a general overview we can do we can. Areas. That's fantastic I'm sure to add all those links into the show notes for this episode as well. Thank you again so much for your time. This episode of based on a true story was produced by me down the Fed. I'd like to thank. Jim Eric once again for their time and expertise and helping US separate fact from fiction in the movie Gettysburg. If you WANNA learn even more about the real history of the battle, go subscribe to their excellent podcast, called the battle of Gettysburg podcast. In fact, they actually have to parter where they take a super deep dive into the historical accuracy of both the movie and the book the movie. Movie is based on so they cover a lot more detail in those episodes than we did here today or schedule a tour. If you WANNA see the places where the fighting took place and don't forget about Jim's great books, either there are three of them as of this recording, they are sickles at Gettysburg. The controversial civil war general, who committed murder, abandoned little round top, and declared himself the hero of Gettysburg. Jim also co authored a book with Brit. Eisenberg called Gettysburg's Peach Orchard Long Street sickles and the bloody fight for the commanding ground along Emmett's. Berg wrote. And last, but certainly not least Jim Co authored the first battlefield guide about the final attack with Wayne mottes and cartographer Steve Stanley called Pickett's charge at Gettysburg, a guy to the most famous attack in American history. And of course, if you're driving or unable to look those up for now than I'll make sure to add links to those books, their podcast and tours in the show notes for this episode as well as on the shows on the web based on a true story PODCAST DOT com. Okay now it's time for the answer to our truth and lie game from the beginning of the episode as a refresher, here are the true truth and one light. Number One. One percent of all battlefield casualties during the American civil war were caused by bayonets. Number two winning the battle of Gettysburg did not guarantee victory for winning the American civil war. Number three. The Union planned the battle of Gettysburg to push the confederacy out of Pennsylvania. You find out which one is ally? Let's start with number. One one percent of all battlefield casualties during the American civil war were caused by nets that. Is True. Eric out that a lot of movies tend to depict fighting during the civil war as turned into close combat every time quickly with bayonets, only one percent of battlefield casualties during the American civil war were caused by bayonets. Next. Is Number two winning? The Battle of Gettysburg did not guarantee victory for winning the American civil war. That is also true as both Jim. And Eric mentioned even though the Union army won both the battle of Gettysburg and would go on to win the overall war. It wasn't necessarily the victory at Gettysburg that let the union when the war as they pointed out, generally still managed to get his army out of Gettysburg and continue fighting for two more years. That means number three is the life. The Union planned the battle of Gettysburg to push the confederacy out of Pennsylvania. Jim and Eric pointed out that the battle of Gettysburg is what military historians refer to as a meeting engagement. Basically even though both sides did know about the presence of enemy, soldiers nearby, neither side planned out this massive battle in fact, depending on how events played out. It's very possible that there could have just been a few clashes and not much more. Of course we know from history. That's not what happened. As the battle of Gettysburg ended up being the bloodiest battle of the American civil war with over fifty thousand casualties between July first and July third, eighteen, sixty three. That just about wraps up our time together today before we go the last thing I like to do on each episode is to share how much time and effort went into creating this episode. I know, that's not something that most podcast do and that's exactly why I'm sharing this information. If there's one thing that is surprising to people who are new to podcasting or never created podcast before it's how much time goes into creating them. So I figure, maybe if you find out more about how much time and money goes into creating podcasts like mine than maybe you'll start to appreciate all those podcasts that you listen to for free just a little bit more. With that set today's episode took a total of thirty nine hours to create and cost twenty four dollars and thirteen cents out of pocket expenses. And as I always do I. 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If you'd like to add to the story hop onto the based on a true story, facebook group, or you can reach out to me directly on twitter at Dan. Lafayette D.. N. L. E. Feb. if social media isn't your thing, you can.

Gettysburg Robert e Lee Joshua Chamberlain Union army confederates Union Army General Buford Jim Eric confederate army Hollywood Pennsylvania Maryland Abraham Lincoln Maryland Virginia Maine Winfield Scott Hancock Liens Gettysburg
The confederate spy who evaded capture

Retropod

07:02 min | 1 year ago

The confederate spy who evaded capture

"Richard pod is sponsored by T. Rowe price. Are you looking to learn a thing or two about getting your finances in order saving and investing? Check out the confident wallet a personal finance podcast series by T. Rowe price and the Washington Post brain studio find it wherever you get your podcasts. History lovers. I'm Mike Rosen walled with retro pod. A show about the past rediscovered on February nineteenth eighteen sixty seven in American gunboat returned to Washington's navy yard after months long trip to the Middle East among the sailors on board outstep, a filthy young men in shackles his name was John Harrison Surat he was the most wanted man in the entire world two years. Earlier Surat had been a confederate spy in a desperate bid to reverse the tide of the civil war Surat conspired with a fellow named John Wilkes booth to kidney. President ABRAHAM LINCOLN the plot failed of course, instead on April fourteenth eighteen sixty five booth slipped into Ford's theater and shot Lincoln in the head newspapers across the country featured photos of booth and Surat under the headline assassins. Booth as you might recall from history. Class was hunted down and killed in a burning barn in Virginia. Eight of his alleged co conspirators, including Surat's mother Mary were arrested quickly tried by a military commission in found guilty. But Surat he was nowhere to be found both physically and later in the pages of history his remarkable tale in the aftermath of Lincoln's assassination is a footnote overshadowed by boosts infamous act. Surat was born in eighteen forty four and raised in the small Maryland town in Prince George's county that bore his family's name Surat. Ville though, it is now known as Clinton his father was the postmaster and also owned the local tavern where hours after Lincoln's assassination booth stopped for weapons and supplies. The Surat's were devoutly Catholic slave owners. According to one of Surat's old pals, his older brother fought for the confederate army in Texas, his sister. She was a ferocious secessionist and his mother was devoted body and soul to the cause of the south. Surat took over as postmaster after his father died in eighteen sixty two, but it was really just a cover. He used the position to transmit messages often regarding union troop movements between confederate operatives up and down the east coast. Eventually the government caught on in Surat was fired, but he continued working as a confederate courier and when his family moved in eighteen sixty four to a boarding house at owned in Washington Surat soon met booth and other co conspirators the south was losing the civil war. And that was a result Surat in booth could not fathom. But booth had a bold plan. Kidnap Lincoln trade him for thousands of confederate prisoners and turn the tide of the conflict booth Surat and others went so far as to hide on the side of a road ready to ambush Lincoln on his way to a play. But the day, they waited Lincoln never appeared. Several weeks later just after the south surrendered booth got his revenge on Lincoln shooting the president while he attended a play at Ford's theatre booth took off on horseback with another conspirator witnesses would later testify that they had seen Surat at Ford's theatre the night of the assassination and wanted posters. Went up searching for both men, but Surat said he was three hundred miles away in L Myra New York on a secret mission to survey a prison where confederate soldiers were being kept. Surat said he learned of Lincoln's killing from newspaper fearing arrest. He made his way to Montreal. Then a hotbed of confederate activity along the way he picked up another newspaper this time. His name was on the front page. Surat spent about a week in Montreal hiding out in his tell room as American detective scoured the city he then escaped into the country some holing up in a priest's house. It was there that he learned his mother and several others had been arrested in accused of plotting Lincoln's assassination. His mother was hanged. Surat eventually took off for Europe living life on the Lam under various identities and enlisting in the pope's. Army after alluding captors in Italy Surat was finally tracked down by authorities in Egypt. His trial was the trial of the century that century and wound up with a hung jury. A judge threw out a second indictment because it hasn't been filed within two years of the crime Surat was free on a technicality. He disappeared to South America for seven months, and when he returned he found a job teaching at a public school in Rockville, Maryland. Surat went on with his life getting married having seven kids and working as an auditor for a steamship company after he died on April twenty first nineteen sixteen the New York Times obituary said Mr. Surat's flight from this country and his subsequent capture and trial was one of the most thrilling incidents of the years following the civil war. The story was buried inside. The paper, thus beginning Surat's second life as a mere footnote. Mike rosenfeld? Thanks for listening. This episode was adopted from a story written by Michael Miller for the Washington Post for more forgotten stories from history. Visit Washington Post dot com slash retro pod.

Surat President ABRAHAM LINCOLN Washington Surat Surat Italy Surat Mr. Surat booth Washington Post Washington confederate army Ford Mike Rosen Montreal Richard pod Maryland Mike rosenfeld T. Rowe Middle East
Skewed Stories from the Civil War, Reconstruction and What Were Missing with Christy Coleman

Factually! with Adam Conover

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

Skewed Stories from the Civil War, Reconstruction and What Were Missing with Christy Coleman

"What hello and welcome to factually? I'm Adam conover. And what do you really remember about reconstruction. You know the period right after the civil war. If anything like me not much all I really got out of the brief unit we spent on it in history. Class was the idea that reconstruction was a time when northern carpetbaggers ruled over the south and that it quote failed. I can also remember like a political cartoon with like an evil looking guy carrying a literal carpet full of his stuff now from New York to Georgia I mean what can you say. It's an evocative word and that's it. That's all I can remember. It was a pivotal period in American history but my textbook spent two pages on on it less time than I spent learning how to diagram a sentence which I still don't remember how to do by the way the truth about history is that it's not a fixed recording. We just the play back. It's a story we have to actively tell ourselves to keep alive in our memory so what happens when we do a poor job of telling that story accurately accurately or when we failed to tell it at all the answer is that we forget the truth and our culture Russia's in to fill the gaps history changes from something that we'd learned from historians to something we just received from pop culture movies and fiction and that means that our cultural memory can become dangerously skewed skewed and that's the case with reconstruction our entire image of it is completely off base the most enduring image reconstruction that people have the one you might have started picturing picturing as soon as I said the word is from the nineteen forty movie gone with the wind it started as a hyper successful Pulitzer Prize winning novel and then a blockbuster movie which won one ten Oscars in one thousand nine forty and it wasn't just any blockbuster adjusting for inflation. It's still the highest grossing movie of All Time More than doubling what avengers ventures endgame made this thing made the Russo brothers look like the do plus brothers Okay and accordingly it had an enormous impact on how people thought about reconstruction the movie depicts a Genteel nearly magical world of southern aristocracy full of rich sexy slave owning southern protagonists and it represents reconstruction as a disaster for those heroes a tragedy in which something beautiful and pure was lost that image put so vividly onscreen onscreen stuck and it influences how we think about reconstruction to this day and gone with the wind wasn't turn influenced by an even earlier film that literally literally changed the course of cinema in America forever imagine sitting down to watch the first star wars in the theater. You know you're about to witness a spectacle unlike anything before it a bold new chapter in the history of movies the State of the art in cinematography and editing not to mention a pop cultural event the likes of which had never been seen before now also imagine that this massive Star Wars type movie was being presented as a true and real history and also that that history history is made up of over three hours of vile racist propaganda that would approximate the experience of seeing d w Griffith birth of a nation in Nineteen Nineteen fifteen the movie depicted free black Americans as evil lascivious and obsessed with finding ways to prey on white women and portrayed the Ku Klux this clan as the triumphant heroes of the South and again it was a smash Woodrow Wilson played it at the Goddamn White House and the clan use the film to recruit for decades. The movie presented itself as a faithful history of reconstruction and Americans took it as that many white white viewers came away convinced that reconstruction was a disastrous failure and the ideas embedded in these films didn't appear out of thin air dig deeper and you'll find that birth of a racist and disgusting idea of reconstruction was influenced in part by the ideas of a group of scholars known as the dunning school named after they're wide whiskered avowedly racist leader William Dunning the dunning school viewed black people as childlike and incapable of governing themselves and it saw the north Earth's attempt to govern the south and expand rights to recently freed African Americans as the low point of American history according to dunning and his ilk order in the south restored only when the Ku Klux Klan begin a campaign of violent terror that caused the north to retreat in instituted a regime of white supremacy known as home rule now the idea of reconstruction as a calamity that befell white southerners didn't just take hold because a one historian with bad facial player in a couple of movies. This story lasted because if you were a white person living in Jim Crow America this story made sense to tell you know if your goal is to uphold all the racist system it's helpful to have a false and racist history to tell but sadly this is the version of the story of reconstruction that dominated for over half half a century but we now know it wasn't true contemporary historians have spent decades doing the hard scholarly work of putting together a more accurate history of what happened at that time and what they've learned is that reconstruction was actually an unprecedented effort by the federal government to affirm and expand the rights. It's of African Americans in a way that had never been done before and it worked for the first time African Americans were able to participate in American democracy accuracy they actually went from being slaves to being voters and they were soon elected to state houses and even Congress for the first time schools were built for white and Dan Black students and citizenship was guaranteed for anyone born in America as a result of these reforms. If you WANNA talk about failure the true failure of reconstruction construction is that when the Ku Klux Klan and its allies began their campaign of white supremacist terror the north retreated and all those gains were lost southern whites quickly imposed the Jim crow system of apartheid and it would take over half a century for those rights to return with the civil rights movement so the truth truth is that reconstruction made America just as much as the civil war or even the revolutionary war before it so if all we can devote to it is two pages is in a political cartoon we have to wonder. What else are we missing again? History isn't a recording or a fossil record that we can just read and observe. It's it's a story that we as a culture have to tell ourselves and win. That story is wrong or missing chapters it distorts our understanding of the present and no one understands understands that better than my guest today. Her name is Christie Coleman. She is historian and C._E._O.. Of the American Civil War Museum in Richmond Virginia and previously she led Detroit's Charles H. Right Museum of African American history and it was a director of the African American programs at Colonial Williamsburg. I think you're really going to enjoy this interview. Let's get right to it Kristie. Thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you for having me so we'll start by asking as a entertainer who attempts to teach history history through comedy. <hes> I want to know from an actual educator. How did you come to history as a subject and what about your approach is different from the way it's commonly taught in America Erica well? I came to the American Civil War <hes> as a topic of study through the job. Frankly <hes> I am a what what people refer to as there's a public historian in that I work in museums and my job is to for lack of a better term interpret what academic historians do you and make it <hes> something that a general public digest and hopefully do that in a way that's exciting and engaging and Dan challenging and all of those things that people can make immediate connections to so the American civil war though is really fraught topic Nick Yeah <hes> really fraud and so I think <hes> I will say this coming into the role having worked in <hes> other museums uh-huh. I found that <hes> this is a history that is very much alive in a lot of iterations men. Regrettably it's <hes> something that people have managed to Cherry pick how they want to remember it. So there are people who for example they only want to talk about what happened on the battlefields right they they only want to do that. Then there are people who want to venerate and then there are people who just want to deal with the political realities of the day in the constitutional questions the this and the that <hes> and then there are people who really love people stories <hes> and I have to say that I'm more aligned with that <hes> but I also understand that <hes> when you just look at particular individuals or particular stories one of the challenges there is you can very quickly lose context context and so my job ultimately is about bringing all of this context to bear bringing in all together <hes> <hes> frankly the way that people lived it. That sounds like such an enormous job because what you're describing is you know the blind men and the elephants <hes> and everyone having their own a little piece of it that they're examining and you're gonna make sense because I mean the civil war just as one historical event is so massive <hes> that I mean any of the things that you just laid out the military history the personal history the political history. That's something someone get spent a lifetime studying just that aspect of it. That's exactly right and the people who do that so how do you. How do you synthesize those things together to get that context? Well <hes> the first thing we have to do. Is You know we really have to just look at the historical record because the reality is people didn't live their lives that way right <hes> just as as we don't today what happens politically will have an impact in our communities and our families <hes> things that we do as communities and families can impact our politics and ultimately commonly impact military action vice versa <hes> and so people of the civil war era also are living their lives that way they are inundated with <hes> <hes> newspapers that all of them have a particular bias in our very unapologetic about that and <hes> there is <hes> there there are various social movements that are taking place at the time <hes> and so the easiest way again for us to do what we've done. <hes> in our new museum and galleries is that we just went back to the record okay so what's happening. Who are the people that help us best illustrate this fluidity <hes> what battles help us eliminate a particular theme and so forth so when when you when you break it down that way then it's much easier to figure out what's the best way to deliver that information so in some cases it might be through a really dynamic <hes> video visual presentation right? You can convey so much more in a picture than you can with words <hes> another instance it may just be the artifact itself can speak power to an idea <hes> and then you use words and other types of of images you know more more two dimensional imagery so that's the advantage. I think that we have to be able to again. We've the story back together. The way people lived it and you know there's no question it is <hes> it's one of those things that you use the elephant analogy <hes> <hes> it's absolutely one of those things that if somebody who has spent their lifetime or their interest you know pulling on the elephants tail well. They've got to at least see the Tail A._O._l.. Before they even consider feeling around in the learning that they got an elephant there yeah so their entry points yeah that's their entry point right so so we acknowledged where the entry points are and our goal is to get them to finally see the elephant and and I think we do a really remarkable job with that I mean and this is part of the reason why museums are the second most trusted institutions for learning what you're talking about reminds me of. I know you got your start. <hes> in colonial Williamsburg Berg which is also I have to say in my mind sort of the archetype of the plain old mainstream history is that sort of let's go see the blacksmith and then here's going to a guy with a musket. Oh there was the battle over there on Yonder Hill but I know that you also I had a different <hes> perspective towards how that Kinda history could be done. How how what sort of approach did you take? In that work. Well see there is the thing the beauty of colonial Williamsburg and institutions that define themselves as sort of living history spaces that they are recreating the <hes> the life in many ways yeah really there are holes there because of staffing right what the staffing often looks like these institutions so <hes> so example the challenge it Williamsburg Berg they'd always known that fifty two percent of the population of this colonial capital were black people yeah majority of whom were enslaved but they were free blacks there as as well they'd always known that but they weren't able to visualize it because the staffing didn't represent that still doesn't represent that so there were other types of programming initiatives that they had to employ and again. It's a story of starting with the artifacts so they had to go back when they made an intentional effort to address these and get away from sort of you know yield colonial town <hes> they they had to deploy their archaeologists archaeologist their historians their <hes> their <hes> <hes> architectural historians etc to their material cultural folks to who really recreate the stuff of that fifty two percent and then start deploying those items and artifacts into into the spaces throughout the historic area so even if you didn't see a person you may have seen a thing and that thing may let lead to a question and that question leads to discovery so that's one of the ways that they did it <hes> obviously one of the other ways in addition to <hes> just learning those particular trades and crafts of the period and and the specialization that's required within history. That's required to share that <hes> they also were smart enough to recognize the theater has a place in this <hes> because theater it is is amazing. The use of theater is amazing in building empathy and helping people understand end sort of common humanity yeah even in the most difficult of imagery or situations and so you know that's that's one of the things that they do now. I think <hes> there are occasions certainly when that can be done extremely well and there are other times when it's just really early kitchen I can't stand it reminds me of what I do. A little bit on on Adam Ruins everything that we try to bring bring these stories or these ideas to life simply by showing you okay here's a person and in our case in the sketch comedy version of a person we tried to get the Wardrobe Federal Brighton everything we do period costumes and but they'll say you know we'll have. We'll have someone who you know. We'll have a we'll have a slave or someone in Jim crow timer or or someone like that say oh my God. This really sucks to give you give you that that <hes> that sort of modern comedy feeling but still just seeing the person reminds minds you oh. This is something that really happened to a real to real people. This is not abstract just seeing that actor in that dress. You're absolutely I mean you know that's one of the things that I love about how we are starting to engage with history again. I mean I love your show. <hes> <hes> there are a few others that I'm not sure I can particularly name <hes> on on your podcast but <hes> but <hes> you know you share space with comedy central for example right yeah and so I loved drunk history shot historians love drunk history only because you guys have found the medium <hes> to reach an audience who probably says oh I'm not much of a history fan but in fact when they again you have a way of humanizing and providing humor and then dig deep and when you dig deep that's when the discovery takes place yeah and and so you know we <hes> we appreciate shape that it's it's when we see things that <hes> that can make you crazy <hes> matter of fact there's a group of historians every sunday evening they they <hes> tweet about a movie that they're watching with thriller pretty funny to follow along as they you know you know break it apart and some pretty humorous ways to i get i get so frustrated by that i you know i just as an example i watched the alan turing movie a couple years ago of i'm forgetting the name of it but you know one one academy award or two but i knew enough about the story with alan turing which is a very important tragic story to know that this is not what happened these these events did not occur you wrote this this is this is fictionalized and there's a level to which you know i i'm in the business of making history and the truth entertaining and of course you take some liberties <hes> <hes> but the core of the story needs to needs to remain true otherwise you end up perpetuating <hes> the same myths that we've always had exactly i was giving a i was giving a presentation <hes> in new york for a group of museum educators and <hes> one one of the things that i talked about is the role that popular culture plays in historical understanding so popular culture will will often either reinforce worst stereotype or historical inaccuracy <hes> or in those remarkably rare situations they will <hes> not only hit on sort of emotional truth but they'll actually get the history ninety percent right and that's a that's a small group that can actually pull that off yeah they're out out there they're out there so i i want to ask you about one thing in particular <hes> <hes> eh colonial williamsburg i know that <hes> you staged reenactment of a slave auction and <hes> that strikes me as such a profound thing that you don't normally see it's nothing that i picture when i imagine going to colonial williamsburg williamsburg yet as soon as i heard of it i thought well of course this would be something that would have occurred of the time a what what led to your choice to put that on and how do you feel folks reacted to it well you know it's it's funny <hes> thirty it was twenty five years ago that we did that and we had been doing yeah <hes> colonial williamsburg in fact this is commemorating this year the fortieth anniversary of doing african american focused interpretation but but ah <hes> twenty five years ago is when we did that state slave auction and what it was frankly the program for all intents and purpose had been going on on for years prior to where they were auctioning off ferrying goods you know and the public was there and all this whenever they were talking about the auctioning of slaves they would say a lot of slaves from the estate of so and so passed on so and so includes this we never saw the people wow and so we decided having been doing programs at the organization for fifteen years what happens if you do see the people people yeah so we very carefully crafted very carefully <hes> redid that program so that the visitor was very clear that they had no role but they were observers <hes> to how this process worked and we had character actors <hes> to portray everyone from the the constable and the sheriff and the auctioneer action near and the the enslaved people who are going to be sold away the <hes> people who were the ones who are doing the buying and the selling <hes> it was really quite white something <hes> and i will be honest with you i don't think i just wanted to do good history yeah it did not occur to me <hes> fully the impact that that program would have in the field <hes> the response leading up to it was one of i mean it just was a lot of concern just especially outside of our immediate community <hes> because the people who were closest is to us new the excellence of the work and the the real discipline in scholarship behind the work this was not something we weren't going to be playing around around with this history right and so so they were there in large numbers and support you know community church groups and folks that d- just again really love and care for the programming that we've been offering and you know we had <hes> obviously institutional support to the point where even in some key donors at the time who were saying if you allow this program go on we're going to cut new or not right new another check and have the c._e._o. of the organization hmm say that's fine thank you for your past support wow was was an extraordinary moment <hes> that i won't ever forget frankly and so as it happened even the critics who came out that day to protest the action i simply ask them to watch the program set their fears aside and watch the program let us do it and then criticize since they really didn't know what we're doing they agreed to do that <hes> and and they and we got him on tape full tape talking about how they you know one gentleman said i was wrong pain how to face ace the story was real i felt it to my core yeah and that's a powerful statement and then i got letters you know quite frankly eighty nine point five out of ten letters that i got in the weeks and months after that from all over the world frankly <hes> were in support and talking about how brave we were and how important it was but honestly in addition to the public response i think the thing that meant the most to me was having my colleagues at other institutions say you know what if you guys could do that we we at least need to be talking about the enslaved populations that are historic sites because many of these institutions twenty five years ago we're not doing that so that's when we started to see the boom and the change and the investment and understanding and researching the lives of <hes> those of african descent who had been enslaved slave at places like monticello and mount vernon and mount failure and <hes> poplar forest and you know <hes> you know museum sites around the country they were a small pockets in some areas that wanted to continue to do so the moonlight magnolia tours as if you know product wealth off only occurred out of some kind of void you know sort of the scarlett o'hara thing which makes me nuts but you know there are still a few places that do that yeah but they also only attract a certain kind of guest <hes> and so people who really do consider themselves cultural tourists or history history buffs or just really wanna have good family experiences learning family experiences they don't tend to go to those places and if they do they ask ask which is such a great thing and you're like wait a minute aren't there slaves here what they do you know so that puts that you know additional pressure and some of them will back away like about this one site down in mississippi well you know the slaves here they all were just treated it's so great they just loved you know we don't so we don't have to delve into what was going on you know and i'm you know you're just fooling yourself oh you just you know let's go back and actually look at what the historical record was there but <hes> again that was a that was a game changing moment mint and it made me <hes> probably a lot more <hes> it it certainly made me more intentional in among work <hes> because it was just yet another example of just how powerful good storytelling could be and how how evocative and game changing it could be and and so i've kind of brought that with me with each with each subsequent role that i've had at other institutions and and it demonstrates how much we lose when we don't treat those stories when we don't <hes> you know use those stories for all folks who are present at those times in history that it's so clear that colonial williamsburg without that that's doing an auction without showing the slave auction is impoverishing our our notion of history and it strikes me that when we talk about the civil war and when we talk about reconstruction on on those eras most of the history that i've seen most of the films that i've seen that are made are so often centered around the the white characters in those <hes> in those stories that you know the <hes> oh the brother against brother <hes> you know off to war and and johnny comes back missing a leg and those sir disturbs i've seen so many of those and <hes> i remember when i saw the film twelve years a slave for the first time and i was struck so hard so strongly by i have so rarely seen this story on on film and <hes> and ben confronted with the immensity city of this truth that this is you know that this is something that happened and not it wasn't even a <hes> it was a daily fact of life right i think one of the most chilling scenes is that in that is when patsy is getting whipped and people are just kind of going on as if nothing else is happening yeah in the background i mean it's an extraordinary ordinary extraordinary scene because of how real it was yeah and and you know certainly that film you know isn't perfect from a historical standpoint standpoint even though solomon northrop left us his entire i mean he wrote the story for us right he told us what happened <hes> but dramatically it's ninety percents there and and it is powerful it is an absolutely powerful piece but you're right we don't see that you know <hes> somebody was asking me he said well you know why don't you think we we see those kinds of films i mean we see you know we've seen all had all different types of of of holocaust films and about the holocaust and people that help to people escape and what the nazis did but you know we don't we don't have those kinds of films about american slavery why is that and i said well <hes> mhm we still are trying to reconcile the legacies of it yeah still trying to reconcile racism and white white supremacy in the american psyche yeah and so you know and i remind people as it you know really the first holocaust museums were not in germany here in the united states and so subsequently i think <hes> it has taken a bit of time for rushed to even begin to scratch the surface of the impact of this institution on american ideals and ideology and practice practice and you know so that's you know that's part of it i mean it is is ever present from from the colonial period through the revolutionary era through we know expansion of the nation through the civil war i mean it is present in most of our history in all of our history yeah i mean it it slavery existed longer than it hasn't in the history of the nation correct that's exactly right that's exactly right <hes> you know we were a slave nation in colonies and nation for longer than we have been a free one and we don't want to i mean if i'm not a historian but if you're asking me that i i mean ah i would have simply said we we at a gut level don't want to confront it because it's it's so painful to to truly confronted at my well it is and the fact is we're still living with a lot of the systems yeah and the institutions that were put in place off the back of it so people aren't willing to give some of that up the yeah or at least to break it down and build something new that is truly equitable and that that's the part that <hes> you know brings without sort of this bizarre behavior that we see <hes> and and and so it's far more i guess comforting bring to you know keep kind of pressing this idea of american exceptionalism versus really recognizing the things that make us <unk> exceptional in some cases are not really good stuff yeah that that's the thing you know so many of the movies about these topics that i was brought up with <hes> t._v. shows and things like that either neglect issues like slavery racism it just sort of you know <hes> look around them a little bit maybe there's one character off to the side who oh you know is representative of this part of american history so either avoid it or they solve it within the movie a white character goes oh my got i just realized racism is bad and slavery's bet we hey guys we stopped doing this and oh problems i am so we are so sorry that this what happened and then that's it what they call it they call it the sort of the white savior movies <hes> that's been taking out even even taking out black agency z. <hes> which we've done with the civil war right i mean you know freedom was something that was given by all the brave men fight for the fought for the united states against the evil empire fire of the confederacy yup as black folk didn't you know it was just sitting on a rock waiting for it to happen no real agency themselves not even even recognizing and acknowledging the fact that they're the ones who are pushing the agenda yes they are the ones that were forcing it and so <hes> so that's that's that's that's always funny to me too <hes> but you know it's how we've had to navigate history i mean so part of how we teach history and i and i'm glad to say that this this is changing and <hes> you know this is one of the things that i will give boomer's credit for <hes> that you know they really pushed and and challenge the sort of indoctrinating narratives of american past <hes> and that was done as as they were experiencing injustice <hes> growing up that that generation and and seeing it for what it was <hes> some cases you know participating in it <hes> but they did they did sort of force a new lens on how we think about research <hes> american history so we've seen sort of this slow march towards that and i think <hes> you know younger generations frankly you know they just kind of demand expect that their history is going to give them a variety of voices and that there is no singular narrow narrative narrative but there are people who are fighting hard against that yes i mean really hard because you know again it is served as sort of an indoctrination function as well versus a critical thinking function yeah there are folks who you can see when they push back against the new historical historical story when when you know there's a new history when we've done plenty history stories on our show where we did a story about how columbus wasn't that great of a guy i love that episode thank you thank you and it's short it's just sort of like a here's what you didn't learn in school about columbus but we have you know so many people <unk> youtube videos and stuff like that push back all the original narrative columbus is true and let me tell you why and the reason they did that is because that history <hes> <hes> really there's a direct connection between the way that they've been telling that history to themselves and the values that they have and how they think the world is today today <hes> and that makes it clear if if nothing else does that the way that we tell these historical stories have have a ideological purpose often <hes> because that's the that's the reason people are pushing back and i have a question off of that but first we have a really quick where we'll be right back with more christie coleman hey folks you've heard me talk about biko before well kiwi co create super cool hands on projects for kids that make learning about steam that science technology engineering arts and math fun with kiko subscription each month in your life is going to receive a fun engaging new project that will help develop their creativity and and confidence those are things that all kids 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You can get a free month of unlimited access to their entire library. When you sign up at the great courses plus dot com slash factually start your free month's today only at the great courses plus dot com slash factually okay and we're back with Christy Coleman so <hes> what that led me to <hes> talking about Columbus in that moment <hes> is the idea that the history that we I hear our cultural memory of the events of the past is not static. It's not something you know. It's not written on a tablet. It's not that we remember are directly. It's so often a story that we started telling ourselves. Only recently you know our modern conception Columbus or the version of Columbus I learned in school was an idea that was created in early part of the twentieth century hundreds of years after his death <hes> and you spoke earlier about how <hes> <hes> the the you know we only started looking into the lives of enslaved Americans <hes> in the in the last few decades that that hundreds of years after these people after these folks lived <hes> we still weren't creating that history and thus we didn't have event let me let me be clear. We aren't creating it. <hes> on a national scale there were scholars already doing this work of course <hes> before the turn of the twentieth century that we're really really doing this research and and <hes> most notably African American scholars but there were others I mean and then the capturing <hes> of of formerly enslaved through the works projects <hes> administration back in the twenties and thirties yes <hes> so we we had it and people were having those conversations conversations and they were digging into it but it wasn't widespread interest in them so I mean therein lies the difference and and you're right the questions that we ask of the past is going to vary with each generation for what it needs and I tell people all the time history has never been for the dead <hes> it is about our lived experience and trying to find some connection to the past or some lesson from the past or a way forward a word that we have to look at the past to help us glean that to find our place in our space and so that's how history he has traditionally functioned <hes> and so unfortunately we're also living in an a period where you know this idea of historical literacy you as well as the critical skills and the critical thinking that goes into that a really missing and on top of that we're living in an era where the information mation is out there in vast quantities but because people don't have the discipline of learning how to <hes> actually you know sound of coal that material will we we're in an age of self curated content anybody that wants to set up a web page or a website can do it. They'll find a futile artifacts to support their contemporary need of the history and then push it and and so you know that's the other thing that again it comes sound to you know the trust in institutions wire they trusted and they're not perfect as they have done. They are reflections of their societies as well but they are also the sometimes the the at least the the discipline of the work. Is there <hes> to go beyond that. Then makes sense yeah it does but do you feel that we're all do you feel that that necessarily because what. I'm curious about is how this affects our understanding of the discipline plenty of history overall so so do you feel this perspective implies that <hes> all of us <hes> are always trying to fulfil our immediate idiot needs through history or is there such a thing as simply knowing what the heck happened. I think it's both I think it's both I think I think we have to have a clear understanding of what the heck happened right yeah. Everybody has to know but you know when you decide to go deeper into that that that's when the discipline is required you either you know get into that work yourself or you know. Go fine reputable sources to help you not sources that are going to help reinforce your ignorance and too often. That's the case I I have to remain hopeful or I wouldn't be in this business now. For thirty. I gotta be hopeful that people are GonNa get it and they're gonNa you know participated in being open and willing to hear voices says they hadn't heard before or stories that they hadn't heard before the bills out the richness <hes> you know because at the end of the day when we're talking about American history or any history for that matter manner you're you're you're. You may think you're looking sort of at a circle. That's laid out in front of you but the deeper you dig. You realize you're actually holding a globe in your finance. You know what I mean and it's just being it's just a matter of wanting to pivot enough to see just how remarkable the thing is <hes> but if you're one of those people who just want this is all. I want right here. I don't WanNa look at anything else. I don't don't mess with me on what I think about excellence <hes> <hes> and we have a lot of those out here <hes> well and and it just makes me crazy so and and I'm since I'm a bubble buster. I loved to yeah well. Let's be of the challenge and let's bust Zimbabwe's. We've been talking about how we go about the process of of examining and teaching history so much. Let's talk about some actual history. Sorry what what are the primary bubbles that you feel need to be bustard that you try to bust about our understanding of the civil war and <hes> <hes> the reconstruction period which gets so much less attention compared to the war itself right so the first thing that I try to do is break down this idea of a unified north in a unified south. That's the first thing that has to go because it absolutely is not the case second thing is that that I try to break down one is that <hes> slavery and racism was purely a southern phenomenon. It was not third thing that I break down. Is this idea idea of <hes> that <hes> <hes> freedom was given versus hard-fought-for <hes> so that's kind of where I start and then we can get into actions and moments basically from April until September of eighteen sixty three was very tumultuous period and there are people who love to say well. Gettysburg was a turning point. No it wasn't a series of of many things that happened. Bendon eighteen sixty three and subsequent to that <hes> that really are pivoting and changing how the nation was trying to define itself freight so one of the things examples. I give everybody likes to talk about Gettysburg and people go to Gettysburg and you know oh to walk on. Those hallowed grounds where yeah yeah yeah yeah. That's that's right all of that happened out there but here's another thing you may or may not know about. Gettysburg on May first of eighteen sixty three the confederate government passes a resolution because they are trying to deal with the reality that they are going to encounter <hes> black black troops in uniform fighting for the United States so they pass a resolution on May first saying that any black troop that they fight that is captured. They are either to be enslaved or to be killed. Wow period wow right now. Ws No P._O._W.'s nope no end so GINSBURG. That's exactly what happens. Even the free black population that had been living around the small town of Gettysburg Burke were terrified and we're trying to get out yeah because they people were being kidnapped. The confederate army was kid. Lee's Army was kidnapping these these people and and having them sent back that were rounded up and sent back and sold into slavery. I mean that's puts a whole different. Look on what happened on those fields right <hes> the fact that blacks are present because the confederate army and and here's the other thing because they knew they were going to be lenient he was going to be going into northern territory. <hes> had a number of the camp slaves that would make up a huge percentage percentage of the army because they're hauling the mules and they're hauling the weaponry and they're digging the trench works and all all that manual. Labor that the confederate army need it. Yeah it's being done by an impress slave population where slaveholders were sending their slaves to be a part of the military effort not a soldiers soldiers but as Labor right so you've got these folks. They don't want to bring them into the north. They don't want to bring them into Pennsylvania because that's free slave state so so march forward because they don't want to have their slaves say hey we're out and we crossed the line. We're we're very now. Yeah we cross the line. We free now you. These folks didn't know it. They knew it so it puts a whole different piece on Gettysburg. Yes it was brutal in three days of fighting over you know in July eighteen sixty three and all this but you've also got this other thing happening that most people don't know thing about yeah when looking at Gettysburg so we we kind of <hes> not kind of we we tried again dish dig a little bit deeper. We're into this. We look at the whole question of well. You know it was really about states rights. We've all heard that one rate I made <hes>. Let me just say the story. You just told me directly indicates. It was not just about states rights. If if the if you're fighting an army if you have two armies fighting and one one of the army has a large slave population supporting the army <hes> it seems like at least part of the war is about slavery especially if you're again having to make decisions about where you're moving the folks based on where the which states are slave states like slavery is clearly threaded through the entire conflict. That's exactly right. That's exactly right and and and the and the the other piece that I that I talk about a lot is this concept of states' rights. <hes> that sort of a post-war definition mission then that evolves <hes> you know yes people are talking about it to a certain extent but the were state's rights actually was born was is in <hes> northerners and unionists <hes> lexicon and it was in direct response to the fugitive slave act of eighteen fifty northern free territory said listen the federal government just passed a law that basically usurps our state laws where we we have abolished slavery and the government is telling us that if a slave or former slave runs away comes to us for freedom that we have to now use our resources to return those people. We're not doing it. We're going to advocate are state's rights will the south was furious about that. How dare they invoke folks state's rights. How dare they do that. You know so yeah so that's one that that that I I love as well is the conversation around states right right because the northern states made clear what their intent was. They you know they were not going to participate in this now again. That's it doesn't include everybody because you also had a block of <hes>. Wall Street bankers insurers shipbuilders lers in Connecticut and Rhode Island <hes> that very much made a fortune off of the slave trade right and so for them they were just trying to find at a minimum find a compromise or you know some kind of peace initiative should've that would preserve the institution enough to preserve the wealth that was being made off of it <hes> north and South and in fact post war immediate post war you having a number of especially the white elite southerners who actually relocate places like New York <hes> right. I mean quite frankly Jefferson Davis the president of the confederacy his wife and children will relocate to New York and she actually variety Davis. I'm sorry Rina Davis actually becomes <hes> uh-huh a reporter for magazine newspaper in New York based out of New York really yeah. I never heard that before. That's amazing. I mean there there. You go new stuff stuff. You learn <hes> reconstruction though the thing that's maddening about reconstructions one of the most <hes> progressive periods in American history in terms of the expansion Manchin of rights of citizenry in the United States. It's not just an impactful on black communities. It's impactful on immigrant communities that had been here for generations. The newly arrived and their children. It's when we get free public education for every person who wants it <hes> it is expansion of libraries race and roads and railroads and all of this is being done by <hes> <hes> eligible male voters right it is a it is a new day as a new dawn of freedom the way people this moment in the sun but the the way that we have been taught it around the country is that reconstruction was a failure yeah. Reconstruction wasn't a failure at all reconstruction was abandoned and and the narrative that it was a failure is a direct result of former confederates informer southern white elites who had I've been stripped of their political power still have their money new research has shown us that they didn't lose a lot of money at all yeah during the course of the war they investments and other nations ED investments in New York banks they they came out just fine postwar those families and how wealth before the war had wealth after what they resented was having their political rights taken away from them what they resented is having formerly enslaved now able to vote wrote <hes> being able to help make in these folks were not just randomly going they were holding <hes> and I'm talking about the newly freed people who are men who were voting. They are holding informational meetings educating themselves about issues and policy and politics and they are act. I mean in taking it really seriously. Ace Lee right yeah <hes> there has holders at that time and -solutely congresspeople holders you know most of whom were those initial groups were Freeman had I've been freeman prior to the war so they were already educated and had various trades or businesses or what have you that that became those initial groups of of black legislators you leaders both at state and local levels but <hes> so the southern white elite resented the fact that this was happening and furthermore they resented the fact that there's a military presence and some of that military presence still included black soldiers who are patrolling and protecting the the new Freeman on a front to social order in an extraordinary way as soon as they are able to <hes> get that political power power back because northerners were growing weary of the cost of maintaining all of this they were growing weary as more of these <hes> formerly slater moving into urban centers in the north trying to find employment and work and and a new life for themselves and their families as S.. Folks were traveling all over the country we have native American groups who also participated in the civil war <hes> twelve. I mean I'm sorry twenty different native nations <hes> are participating in the American civil war for for the confederacy the other sixteen for the United States they are trying to re negotiate what means for them as sovereign nations or whether or not they will be a part of the United States now that they fought so new treaties are being signed in exercise someone being broken <hes> so there's chaos there. I mean it. It is a period of there's just so much going on and had been so much loss and suffering and dramatic change to American life both political social militarily and otherwise that the the reconstruction era <hes> again it didn't fail it was abandoned. It just got to be <hes> more than <hes>. The majority was is willing to contend with well and needed thinking that well we've. We've been doing this now for twelve fifteen years. They ought to be able to handle it on their own. Now we're done yeah just pull up stakes. Let's get out of here and that was all that was needed along with frustration about all of this in the scandals of eighteen eighteen seventy three financial crisis was also another key factor that Congress would then give the right to vote back to these former confederates and when that happened the tide shifted and we would go through another hundred hundred years of disenfranchisement that is such a that is so wild to to contemplate because I mean we're we are brought brought up in this country you know we do hear about Jim Crow and and the civil rights movement and and you know the struggle for civic participation and political participation by by people people of color but we are not taught that we had it over one hundred years ago and then we lost it that it was a brief a brief brief moment and then things back and we had to fight for them again that so that's exactly right that's so right it is it is <hes> I give the example here in Virginia the election of eighteen seventy six the roughly one hundred forty thousand African American men who are registered to vote in Virginia <hes> the <hes> by nineteen hundred that number is down to ten thousand wow and and half of the white men who were not monied who had been given extended the right to vote because of the Fifteenth Amendment in eighteen sixty eight those as white men who had <hes> immigrant communities who were generational and people who didn't have a lot of property who were now allowed to vote half of them would lose their right to vote by one thousand nine hundred wow so this wasn't just this wasn't just disenfranchisement of black people. This was disenfranchisement of the vast majority of Americans Reagan's in favor of this <hes> this elite <hes> white supremacist perspective and then yeah troll that narrative coming into the twentieth century it was again trying to get the poor white to align with bat elite versus the black folk who with whom they he probably had the most in common and it was successful and that is another story that we another store in another conversation right well. I mean I I mean this story is not one that we tell ourselves. It's it's a you know comes back to why we don't make you know movies about <hes> about slavery every as often as we should that that this is I mean what you're describing is so contrary to America's story about itself because as you know the story we normally have you know the the arc of history bends towards justice every day is a little bit more just and equal than the one that came before <hes> <hes> American democracy well it started as just the white landowners but then slowly and steadily we improved and we expanded that <hes> to folks <hes> again and again and hey the civil war was a big inflection period where you know a big inflection point where that happened but we you know we are on the side of justice and we won and Gosh darn it. We did it when you're what you're describing thing. Is that no right after that we had a brief period of democracy and then we slipped back into being an apartheid state. I mean what you're describing is is a country that is not democratic for a huge portion of its history and that had the opportunity. We're not even talking. We talked about what happened to the women yet right. Yeah I mean that's <hes> you know you're right. I mean it's it. It isn't the story that we tell ourselves but if we told ourselves it correctly if we told ourselves it <hes> fully then we can see where those demons are and we know when we're under threat when we see see those behaviors repeating themselves yeah when they these in because frankly some of the things that we see in current political climates in terms of you know various state legislatures that are shifting <hes> or trying to make voting more restrictive or you know the various things I mean the the Fifteenth Amendment is pretty pretty. doggone clear right you know the right of the citizen to vote shall not be abridged by the state period right well. It goes on okay. No it goes on to say you know regardless of previous condition of servitude <hes> right so there's there's other ways you know then they come up with poll taxes and they come up with you know if you committed a crime then no we're GonNa Strip you of the right to vote and if you did this we're going to I mean you start you know if you live within this particular jurisdiction and we don't have any <hes> we don't have to have voting you know easily accessible to you or no. You can't one read in the paper recently. Well you know if you're elderly and you can't get yourself to the polls. You can't get a ride actually legislature just later looking at that that are preventing people who may not have transportation from getting rides to the polls. Can you imagine I mean it's it's just stunning thing but these are these are the kinds of things and if you don't understand how people have have used these varying techniques to disenfranchise enfranchise than you. You can't be on the lookout for them. You can't fight against them. You you know you it's nice to stay in the nice little bubble and think well of course anybody who wants to vote can in boot well the impediments that are put there are very real yeah and so and they're put there for a reason and they're put there for a reason so so you have to you know we just have to know what the history is so that we can be more mindful about these things so I mean that's why keeps me fascinated. Needless list to say <hes> <hes> it definitely keeps me fascinated. You know how we navigate all this and in terms of sort of the progressiveness fitness it gets better over time. Well we actually see not just with American history but in history in general is there's always a sort of expansion and contraction yeah that takes place and you know you have this expansion of of human rights and dignity and then it snaps back like Rabanne Yeah <hes> <hes> and sometimes far more restrictive than it was previously and then you creep a little bit further so yes the arc towards justices there does lean towards there but you have to you have these expansions and contractions that happen <hes> as as you are moving that direction direction so none of it really should surprise us. Yeah we see that happening. The hope is is that those periods of contraction become shorter shorter but what you hope for the one that we're discussing was not short. It was a very long period of time a long period of time yeah right that's right but you know it when you think about it in in the arc of history though <hes> the what happened was an extraordinary expansion during the reconstruction period guess <hes> from the early you know sort of colonial settlements to that moment most of it you know the the the the periods of expansion were still limited within a particular group right <hes> and then we get to reconstruction and and the very language language and definitions that had been used to find the American character and the ideal of America American Democratic Republicanism expand significantly but to but expanded in this case where the snapback because it hadn't had period of expansion like that the snapback not only snap back but it stayed in a in a particular place yeah so he wouldn't see we wouldn't see that continual move that continue arc until we got until the fifties sixties and and seventy s and and really saw half a century later half a century later but again it all most of it had been periods of constriction so it wasn't that rubberband wouldn't be pulled very hard yeah and when it did that's what we saw so it just took some time and I think <hes> the difference this time is that we had roughly fifty to sixty years of expansion <hes> on it in the progressive period in the modern era and that's why we're seeing such tremendous backlash against it now yeah but at the end we'll we'll definitely come out ahead of where we are. We just got to acknowledge it deal with it. Figure it out fight it to keep that expansion going <hes> that's my two cents. That's historical perspective and as an American can who who looks at this and says you know we'll never reach our ideal until we deal with these assaults on it. Yeah I mean that's a very optimistic two cents to have for someone like yourself who has such a clear eyed view of how fall of how far short we've fallen. I mean the this issue and and and let's maybe <hes> have this be our our last question. I'm really I'm really curious about your thoughts on this <hes> as myself being an entertainer and educator <hes> I find that one of the hardest types of arguments I make are the ones that interfere with our self conception either I personally or nationally and our our self conception about America I mean even America's critics and I count myself as a loving critic of America Gotcha often find ourselves having to go back to the uplifting version you know that hey we've had some trouble in the past but we've always bent bent that arc of history for we've always expanded expanded the rights to to more people etc and and often by doing that we sort of left let ourselves off the hook a little bit. Hey you know the founding fathers didn't have it all right but you know <hes> we expanded expanded the right to vote over time even though they left you know <hes> everybody with themselves out at first they had a they had a great idea in mind and we were able to fill that history and and so <hes> America's still a wonderful place because it took a little time but we got there eventually and when we tell stories that contrast with that that contradicts that that actually no we backslid horrifically typically in a way that we don't even acknowledge today it is Har- it hurts herself conception it it. It's a it's a blow to the EGO. It says oh I thought I was is good but I'm bad is the is and so we act we react against that and I feel like that's so often you know part of the personal snapback that people will have is against that sort of negative change their self conception. I'm curious about how you approach that as an educator and and what do you what would you tell folks listening <hes> about how they should conceive of America differently having heard this uh-huh okay so question big question so I think if I were to to simplify the thought I think about it Kinda like this. It's kind China you know we're we're. We're all part of the family right and every family's got its KOOKS and every family has its idealist and every family family has its drunks and you can still love that drunk uncle. Let's not pretend he's not an alcoholic can deal with the issue right and so. I think that that's kind of where we fall down we we we often don't want to look critically because it does mean that we've got to put in the work. That's what people I think are really afraid of. They don't WANNA put up. Put up the work. They don't want to break down the status quo because they found their place within it but if we really believe if we really want to say say that what the founders even though the founders didn't intend for it to include everyone they nonetheless gave us a blueprint that was bigger within themselves in their own shortcomings they gave us an ideal and I think we as Americans have a responsibility ons ability to make real the ideal of a populous that is educated populace that is engaged a populous populace that is looking for the common good and a populous that is <hes> inviting and welcoming and E.. pluribus unum as the founders said out of many one yeah which suggests <hes> an embracing of our differences to find ourselves so oh that's part of the reason why I can still be Kinda Pollyanna because I'm the experiment that is America is an extraordinary everyone and a painful one but it is still worth being on the journey. That's a beautiful sentiment and <hes> I think that's a a wonderful note to end on. Thank you so much for coming on always fun. I'll see you the next time thank you so much Kristie Coleman for coming on the show. I hope you got as much learned as much from that interview as I did. If you enjoyed it please consider giving us a rating or review. Wherever you subscribe Apple Podcasts stitcher wherever you do it helps us out a lot I would like to thank Dana wiccans and Brett Morris at ear wolf and our researchers Sam Rodman and of course thanks once again to Andrew W K for our theme song you can follow me at Adam conver- on twitter or anywhere else on social media that is it for factually this week? We'll see the next time once again everybody KIWI CO projects are designed to spark creativity tinkering and learning in kids or dare I say adults of all ages they make learning about steam fund and they're on a mission to empower kids not just to make a project but to make a difference and they're offering my listeners. There's a chance to try them for free to redeem the offer and learn more about the projects visit Kiko Dot com slash factually that's Kiwi Co dot com slash factually. Hey everybody it's Aaron and Bryan during shade we just had our four hundred episode through a huge party with some of of our favorite guests Putin Patel Ryan O'CONNELL Paula Tompkins Dave Holmes Rana Glickman and more so if you love spontaneously breaking into song take to the theater ticket Kendall and it will blow on characters were giving me one hundred percent strudel trudeau boy from toaster strudel correctly when I go to school eat my toaster strudel I have so much in my belly and

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Confederate Gold

GONE

58:10 min | 1 year ago

Confederate Gold

"The. Hi, everyone, Richard. And I are happy to tell you about an unbelievable new show from par cast. It's called crimes of passion, and it analyzes the relationship, dynamics and psychology that lead to trail crimes and even murder. Stay tuned after this show and will play a clip of the first episode on the deaths of Edwin and Wilma Hoyt whose dismembered bodies were found floating on the surface of lake to listen to the full first episode. Subscribe to crimes of passion wherever you listen to podcasts. New episodes come out every Wednesday in April of eighteen sixty five the civil war had all but ended confederate. General Robert Lee was preparing to formally surrender the bulk of the confederate army to Ulysses s grant union forces were advancing into the southern states reclaiming the failed nation for the United States of America confederate. President Jefferson Davis received word that a union battalion was on route to capture the confederate capital city of Richmond Virginia as the city burned. Davis fled with the members of his cabinet. The group took with them a massive cache of gold, reportedly all that was left of the confederate treasury. The treasure is likely valued at millions of dollars in today's currency though. The exact value has been debated by historians. But what is known is this when Davis and the rest of his cabinet were captured in may of eighteen sixty five the treasure that they had on them with seized insent north it never reached its destination. There are numerous rumors as to wear all that treasure ended up over the past one hundred fifty years treasure, hunters and historians have looked all over the United States for the missing gold. And yet after all this time the confederate gold has. Alluded all efforts to find it. It's a true American treasure hunt. Hi, I'm Molly. And I'm Richard welcome to gone on the par cast network. Every other Monday, we examined mysterious disappearances and theories, they spawned from the amber room to Michael Rockefeller, Picasso paintings to the trust in language. The Roanoke colony to the lost Russian cosmonauts if it's gone. We're looking for it at par cast. We're grateful for you our listeners you allow us to do what we love let us know how we're doing reach out on Facebook and Instagram at par cast and Twitter at par cast network. And if you enjoy today's episode the best way to help us is to leave a five star review wherever you're listening. It really does help us. We also now have merch head to cast dot com slash merch. For more information. You can find previous episodes as well as par casts. Other podcasts on your favorite. Cast directory. In this episode were looking into the confederate goal that reportedly vanished in eighteen sixty five as the remnants of the confederate government tried to avoid capture. This treasure is commonly referred to as confederate gold. However, this treasure was more of a myriad of precious metals. In addition to gold, the cash also included Mexican silver dollars and valuable jewelry. However, for consistency sake will refer to the treasure as the confederate gold for the duration of this episode. The treasure has become a recurring plot device in adventure novels and films the myth of this confederate. Gold has long overshadowed the real historical story in this episode. We're going to examine the historical events that led Jefferson Davis to flee Richmond. With the treasure on that fateful night in eighteen sixty five then will examine the most likely. Theories as to where the treasure ended up as is the case with most missing treasure, their dozens of reported locations with the gold is suspected to have been hidden for this episode. We're looking at the possibilities that are most supported by historical facts. The first theory is that the bulk of the treasure was stolen by outlaws most likely deserters from the confederate army who buried the gold somewhere in the southern United States. The second theory is that the gold was actually stolen by union troops who are tasked with transporting it back to Washington DC. Instead the soldiers smuggled the gold north all the way to Lake Michigan where it sunk and still remains to this day. Our third theory is that there is no hidden treasure. The legend grew out of rumors and hearsay surrounding the end of the confederacy. And that story has persisted to this day. Thanks to conspiracy theories and sensationalism given the hindsight of history. It can be easy to forget. How complicated the civil war. Actually was it's not a stretch to say that the confederate states of America were doomed from the start. It's probably a good thing that seceding from the United States to form a separate nation is pretty hard to do even after the southern states ceded, the remaining United States where military and economic force to be reckoned with there were a number of issues that led to the civil war, including economics states rights against the federal government and the enmity between the northern and southern states just to name a few. But the single main cause of the war was slavery. There were only thirty three ratified states in eighteen sixty as the United States spread across the western frontier. The US congress ran into a problem abolitionist them the movement to abolish slavery had been present in America since the country was founded in seventeen seventy six. For the entirety of the country's history. The southern states had affectively banded together. In congress to vote down any movement to end slavery on a national level. But the southern leaders couldn't stop individual states from ending slavery within their own borders. Every new state that entered the union got to choose whether it would be a Free State or a slave state by the eighteen forties. There was a chance that the anti-slavery. Congressman might outnumber the pro slavery ones if that happened the south might not have been able to stop a national abolition of slavery. The south responded by forcing protection measures, including legislation which stated that for every Free State admitted to the union, a corresponding slave state must also be admitted. So that the balance was maintained, but by eighteen sixty compromise between the two sides seemed like an impossible dream with the eighteen six. The election. It was becoming painfully clear that the issue of slavery. It was not going to go away peacefully, although ABRAHAM LINCOLN did not seek to abolish slavery in the south as part of his political platform. He did want to restrict it spread to new states, and the southern leadership made it clear that they would vote to secede. If Lincoln was elected the question of succession was complicated at face value. A single state breaking free of the United States was illegal and unconstitutional. However, considering that the original thirteen colonies broke free from Britain to rebel against an oppressive regime. The southern states felt that they were just honoring history Lincoln was elected and the southern states led by South Carolina voted to succeed beginning in December of eighteen sixty by March of eighteen sixty one South Carolina, Mississippi, Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, Texas. And Alabama officially formed the confederate states of America. The war officially began with the battle of fort Sumter on April twelfth eighteen sixty one the first of many vital tasks for the nation was to establish leadership shortly after the formation of the confederacy former Mississippi Senator Jefferson Davis was elected as the country's first president. He would also be the nation's only president Davis was a popular choice in eighteen sixty one because of this pro slavery politics and his stance on states rights. However, his appointment would ultimately do more harm than good. His blunders, particularly in the matters of military and economic decisions would contribute to the confederacies downfall. That isn't to say that the rogue nations quick demise was entirely Davis's fault. The reality is that there was no realistic chance. The confederacy would win the war in. Head on military battle war is expensive and complicated. Especially when you're also trying to establish a new country, the confederacies simply lack the necessary manpower leadership and finances to combat the more organized union forces. Before the confederacy was even one year old Davis was forced to declare martial law and enforce a draft of all able bodied men to fight in the war, though, the confederacy boasted some of the more accomplished military officers in the United States at the time. It was lacking for infantrymen the confederate government was no more organized given that the rogue nation was formed in large part because state leaders didn't want to submit to a federal government. Davis had trouble commanding his own cabinet. This is significant mostly because it meant that the confederacy never got its finances into decent shape. Previously. The southern states had largely relied on farming and the production of raw resources like cotton as a benchmark of their economy. These resources had to be sent north where the factories were in order to be turned into useful materials since the south was now at war with the north. They no longer had access to the industrial facilities that. Were required to produce weapons and war supplies from the outset. The confederacy was outgunned. Additionally, they had few options for trading. Most nations didn't recognize the legitimacy of the confederacy. And thus the newly established confederate currency was useless almost everywhere as such the confederacy did everything it could to consolidate more universal currency such as gold and silver in the later years of the war, the confederate government even confiscated jewelry and other valuables in order to combat it's growing financial crisis. This was all held in the confederate capital city of Richmond. Virginia all of these efforts to bolster the confederate states of America were futile as we said, the southern states had little chance against the more organized. Well supplied union army. This is where the confederacy was in eighteen sixty five outmanned poorly supplied and in possess. Session of a rapidly dwindling supply of money as union forces scored victory after victory Jefferson. Davis was attending church on April second eighteen sixty five when he received word from general, Robert E Lee, the message was simple Richmond must be evacuated and the confederate government must flee. If the nation was to survive the night Davis ordered confederate troops to set. Richmond ablaze said that the advancing union army would not the able to make use of any supplies. They found within the city, then he ordered the full contents of the treasury loaded onto train cars in preparation for departure. We should state here that the exact amount and value of this treasure has long been disputed naturally. It's impossible to confirm since the treasure has yet to be found, but the general account states that the bulk of the treasure consisted of gold, silver and bullion valued at around. Around five hundred thousand dollars. Additionally, there were millions of dollars in confederate currency, though, as we've said, it was generally useless. Finally, the troops loaded up the seized assets from a number of Richmond's private banks, which added another four hundred and fifty thousand dollars value. The treasure was split up a number of times during the journey, and we can't account for every individual crater barrel that might have been misplaced by confederate soldiers, but we can track the journey of the bulk of the goal to appoint Jefferson's initial plan had been to flee south and use the funds from the treasure to establish a new base to continue the war effort. However, the plan quickly unravelled the convoy reached the end of the train line in danville Virginia, and the party was forced to carry what they could on horseback before the treasure had been consolidated to a single train car. But now it was being spread out among. The numerous men, horses and mules. Additionally, the soldiers with Jefferson were growing restless, they hadn't been paid. And as a union victory seemed more and more inevitable. They started to grumble about whether what they were doing was really worth it. The confederate leaders were forced to use part of the treasure to pay for their own military detail, Jefferson, eventually split the treasure up the money taken from the Richmond banks was placed in a vault in the city. The rest of the treasury money was assigned to confederate secretary of war. John breckenridge. Most of the confederate cabinet was captured in the city of Washington Georgia in may of eighteen sixty five Davis was captured just days later union. Soldiers recovered, the Richmond Bank money, but the rest of the treasure was missing. There are two main reasons that it's so difficult to track. What happened all of this treasure? The first is that the treasure was large but easily split up into small. Containers. The treasure dwindled and fractured as it moves south, and thus it became harder and harder to track where every single cent ended up the second. More concrete reason is that there's not a lot of hard documentation from this particular period in early may of eighteen sixty five the confederate cabinet burned. Most of their government documents which included treasury slips the goal in doing. This was to prevent union troops from finding out about the treasure that Jefferson Davis had sent away. Unfortunately, it also makes it hard for modern historians to find out what really happened to the mounds of gold that for all we know could still be out there somewhere waiting to be discovered. We'll dive into the main theories as to what happened to the confederate gold right after this. Do you want counseling, but don't know how to get started? Or where to look if this sounds like you, the easiest thing to do is to reach out to better. Help bitter. Help provides online counseling with licensed professional counselors, who specialize in everything from depression stress and anxiety to anger relationships. LGBT matters and more you can speak to your counselor through four different communication modes. Taxed chat phone and video and anything. You share is confidential. There are so many advantages to online counseling, you don't have to leave your home. You don't have to worry about the weather or parking. You don't need to worry about what to wear you can get help on your own time and at your own pace. Best of all, it's a truly affordable option gone listeners. Get ten percent off your first month with discount code gone. So why not get started today? Go to better help dot com slash. Gun simply fill out a questionnaire to help them assess your needs and get matched with a counselor. You'll love that's better. Help dot com slash gun. Now back to the story. In eighteen sixty five a large sum of gold and precious metals with since south from Richmond Virginia in an effort to preserve the confederate states of America. When the caravan was captured along with most of the confederate cabinet a large chunk of the gold was missing one thing to note about our first two theories is that they're not mutually exclusive since we know the treasure was likely split up among various parties, it's possible that what remains of the gold is in separate locations across the United States recall that the treasure which set out from Richmond Virginia was made of two distinct sums the approximately five hundred thousand dollars of gold, silver and jewelry and an additional four hundred and fifty thousand dollars in gold and silver coins seized from the private banks of Richmond. This may surprise you when most people discuss confederate gold, they're actually referring to the money from the Richmond banks. We'll. Discuss the fate of the actual confederate treasure soon. But our first theory contends that a large sum of the treasure was buried somewhere in Georgia by robbers who stole the gold from the union forces that were returning north. Here's what we do. Now. As far as our first theory is concerned on may fourth eighteen sixty five Jefferson Davis signed the order that officially dissolved the confederate states of America. The next day union troops captured the city and the gold and silver from the Richmond banks. There was some debate. Among the union leaders as to what to do with the four hundred fifty thousand taken from the Richmond banks, the owners of the banks had been complicit with the confederacy. After all ultimately, the decision was made that the money should be returned on may twenty four th eighteen sixty five a small contingent of union soldiers guiding five wagons loaded with Bank assets departed Georgia for. Richmond. If you've ever seen a western movie, you can guess what happened next. The caravan was hit in the middle of the night by gang of robbers more likely than not had been informed of the treasure. The thieves made off with everything they could carry over two hundred ninety thousand dollars worth of treasure in all the remaining funds did make it to Richmond. But the now ex confederate leaders there were in about to let some deserters make off like bandits the money from the Richmond banks would prove useful to the southern reconstruction. So general Edward Alexander put together a posse and went after the thieves when all is said and done dozens of men were dead and Alexander's outfit had recovered about one hundred and ten thousand dollars leaving one hundred eighty thousands still unaccounted for that money, which would amount to over three million dollars. Today has never been found American forces made efforts during the reconstruction to recover the stolen fund. Ends. But nothing ever came of them. What's most likely is that the thieves spent the remainder of the stolen gold in such a way that didn't draw attention? The southern United States was in bad shape, following the civil war. So it's entirely plausible that the men just kept their heads down and spend a little bit at a time until the loot was all gone, however, cultural interest in the gold has led to additional theories that while not exactly likely do warrant examination. The best example of this is the nineteen seventy five book Snow White sands by Martha Meisel Puckett. The book is a history of Georgia through the civil war and one of its most notable chapters concerns, the missing confederate gold Puckett points to the case of so Vassar Mumford a wealthy Georgia merchant who allegedly was present at Jefferson Davis final cabinet meeting Mumford. A diehard confederate loyalist had been part of the plan to rob the union caravan. On and retake the Richmond Bank funds after recovering the money. Mumford. Put it to work Georgia was a farming state and much of its fertile farmland had been destroyed by union forces during the war, Mumford used the stolen treasure to order vast amounts of corn seed from South America in order to help restart. Georgia's farming economy. When Mumford died his daughter used her large inheritance to open an orphanage and provide scholarships for children in need much of the evidence of Mumford involvement in the story is that by all accounts, his own plantations had been destroyed during the war and few historians can account for his maintained wealth during and after the conflict that said there's not much here in terms of hard proof. Besides the notable coincidence. Mumford could be the embodiment of the theory that the gold simply never left Georgia, and that's in tireless possible. But according to our second theory, the gold did make it out of the south to the northernmost reaches of the United States. Our second theory concerns, what is likely the most popular belief regarding the missing confederate gold, it states that a big part of the treasure was smuggled to Michigan while crossing Lake Michigan into Canada a boxcar containing the treasure was dropped overboard. And the gold is still at the bottom of the lake. The legend of the missing confederate gold has seen a resurgence of public interest in recent years, this is largely due to a documentary series that aired on the history channel in early two thousand eighteen it was titled the curse of the civil war gold, and it follows mardi la- Geena and his team search for confederate gold at the bottom of Lake Michigan. So how on earth could confederate gold make it from Georgia to Michigan? Without anyone knowing about it recall that union troops were tasked with transporting the Richmond Bank funds back north to Richmond. According to this story. There was more than one northern outfit tasked with transport. Eating the captured money the documentary series states that this gold was taken from Jefferson Davis when he was captured on may tenth eighteen sixty five as we've said, it's hard to keep track of the differing amounts of money that the confederacy made off with while we have a general guesses to how much money made up the initial amount of the treasure it's entirely possible that the numbers were fabricated in order to hide some of the treasure or seeing that in any theory. It's nearly impossible to state how much treasure there actually was or where it came from. But this particular theory maintains that a group of union soldiers all from Michigan found a cache of confederate gold among Jefferson, Davis's, personal effects and conspired to smuggle at north to keep for themselves. The men were attempting to move the gold in a bucks car across Lake Michigan to smuggle into Canada. The weather was bad. The crew were forced to dump the boxcar overboard in order to save the ship from sinking. That treasure has remained at the bottom of Lake Michigan ever since a number of recent finds seemed to help corroborate this story. The first confirmation is a deathbed confession made to the grandfather of one. Kevin Dykstra treasure hunter featured in the history channel docu series. The confession came from George Alexander, Abbott. A lighthouse keeper who in nineteen twenty one admitted to being one of the union soldiers who stole the gold and smuggled it to Michigan. He stated that the gold was lost and Lake Michigan. And then it's still there the words of one man almost a hundred years ago might not seem like much to go on. But as the story was passed down. It started to generate interest in Lake Michigan as a potential site of missing treasure. Ultimately the documentary series doesn't end with the discovery of the long lost gold. If the treasure really is down there it makes for a fantastic story. But there's a few notable discrepancies in this theory, the curse of the civil war. Gold claims that the treasure hidden at the bottom of Lake Michigan was approximately two million in gold, bullion or bars. This would make the Lake Michigan treasure by far the largest amount of gold to be associated with the confederate treasure that left Richmond. The counts we've read put the confederate gold at around five hundred thousand dollars plus the additional four hundred and fifty thousand in Richmond, Bank funds. So for this theory to be true. It would mean that the single amount stolen by the Michigan union troops was worth double that of the entire rest of the total treasure. This account is further contradicted by numerous sources that state Jefferson. Davis took only thirty five thousand dollars worth of gold. For himself when he fled Georgia, still Jefferson. Davis was not a good person. It's certainly possible. He withheld a huge sum of treasure for himself before he abandoned his cabinet and his army to save his own life. As we've said there are enough discrepancies in this story to make any claim as to the real value of the treasure dubious at best given that there's not much else in terms of proof that the gold ever made it to Michigan. We have to say this theory warrants. A little more skepticism still if we've learned anything from our look into the subject, it's that the treasure could be almost anywhere. But what if it's nowhere as in? What if the legend of this confederate gold has only grown so large because it's covering up the truth? The treasure was lost long ago. Coming up we'll cover that very idea in our next theory. Love is patient. Love is kind. But sometimes love is deadly some couples may appear happy, but things may be different behind closed doors every week par. Cast new podcast crimes of passion. Analyzes, the relationship, dynamics and psychology that lead to trail crimes and even murder. You can listen to the first episode on the deaths of Edwin and Wilma Hoyt right now and look for upcoming episodes on the Raina Bobbitt, Amy Fisher, and Joey buttafuoco and the boyfriend killer. Jodi, Arias listen to crimes of passion. And find out what happens when true love meets true crime, new episodes, come out every Wednesday search for and subscribe to crimes of passion. Wherever you listen to podcasts. Again, search crimes of passion or visit par cast dot com slash passion to listen now. Now back to the story in eighteen sixty five a cache of confederate treasure was lost. Amidst the chaos at the end of the civil war. The location of the treasure has been theorized to be everywhere from buried in Georgia to the bottom of Lake Michigan stories of missing treasure tend to stick with us because there's always a chance someone could still find it. If it still exists are third and most anticlimactic theory is that there is no treasure what remained of the confederate treasury with quickly spent away in the weeks and months following the war and only legends and fictionalized accounts. Have kept the myth of the confederate gold alive for this long. The challenge of locating. The treasure has always been wrapped up in the value of the treasure. That was taken from Richmond in eighteen sixty five the most thorough sources put the number at around five hundred thousand in gold and precious metals though, there long has been speculation. That the real value of the treasure was much higher. The union government actually helped perpetuate this rumor northern leaders likely hadn't realized how dire the financial situation of the confederacy was in eighteen sixty five as union forces began, capturing more and more confederate strongholds the union leadership. Started to put the word out about the missing funds from the confederate treasury the union soldiers were not finding much gold when they captured fortresses, and they didn't believe that was all there was it seemed to them that the confederacy was hiding large sums of money. The real value of the confederate treasury was likely on the smaller side for all the reasons we've mentioned the confederacy had been hemorrhaging money in its efforts to raise an army strong enough to fight off the north. If we accept that the confederate leadership really was only carrying five hundred thousand and personal assets. When they fled Richmond in April of eighteen sixty five. It actually becomes a little simpler to figure out what happened right from the start. There's a recorded loss. We know that Jefferson Davis fled with his party and the treasure on April. Second eighteen sixty five however on April sixth a man named Walter Philbrick made a tally of the treasure and came up nearly two hundred thousand dollars short the reason for the discrepancy was due to fifty barrels of Mexican silver coins? Valued at four thousand dollars a piece these barrels seemed to vanished at some point between April second when the treasury left Richmond and the April sixth tally. It's unknown. Why the barrels were separated from the rest of the treasure and speculation exists to this day that the silver is buried somewhere in danville Virginia where Philbrick made the tally. It's also possible that the silver was tallied in Richmond. But never made it onto the initial train out of town historians, generally agree that the silver. Was intended to pay the soldiers general Lee's army which at that time had been set to catch up with Davis and the rest of the confederate leaders. It could have been left behind in danville for Lee to recover on his March. If so the silver would have likely been confiscated by union troops, so already the value of the confederate treasure is down from five hundred thousand to just over three hundred thousand in four days. As the fall of the confederacy became more and more evident soldiers in the confederate army were left wondering what they were still fighting for to that end. It was vital that the confederate leadership keep their men paid to avoid a mutiny on April seventh as the convoy passed through North Carolina. There's a record of thirty nine thousand dollar payment to one general Johnson and his men. This battalion had not surrendered and would likely be needed to blockade any union forces pursuing Davis. It was not money. Well, spent Johnson and his men surrendered just over two weeks later. So now of that original some of five hundred thousand Davis had less than three hundred thousand and we've only covered the major deductions. The treasury money would have been called upon to pay for food and transportation for the entire group as it continued its journey south. It took nearly a month for the party. To reach its destination, Washington, Georgia. They're the confederate leadership was faced with the growing problem of troop disatisfaction, the men had been marching for weeks, and too many of them the writing was on the wall, they knew they would not be paid. If the remainder of the treasury money was captured by union forces John Breckenridge, the confederate secretary of war had no choice, but to pay each of the men twenty six dollars for a total cost of over one hundred thousand dollars when Jefferson Davis fled Washington. He was reportedly given thirty five thousand in gold to both support himself. And if the chance came oversee a resurgent confederacy by this point, the confederacy had been dissolved, and it was left to the cabinet to disperse the remainder of the treasure after payments to some of the cabinet members and additional expenses. The confederate treasure would have amounted to less than one hundred thousand dollars the rate at which the. Confederate treasury dwindled after Jefferson Davis fled Richmond is concerning and certainly raises the possibility that the rest of the money was spent as well. The final piece of the story that confirms this particular theory concerns one James a simple, according to one account, captain occasion, Clark was the last man to be made responsible for the confederate treasury before it was captured by the union army. It was Clark who oversaw the dispersal of what remained of the treasure. When all the expenses were paid Clark was left with a surplus of eighty six thousand dollars. He presented this to navy. Lieutenant James simple Clark ordered simple to hide the money and smuggle at south to savannah from their Clark had made arrangements for the goal to be shipped to England where it would be deposited in a Bank account and await the day that the confederacy would rise again, simple was partnered with another officer Edward Tidball. The two men didn't even make it halfway to savannah in the city of Augusta just fifty miles from where they said off simple and Tidball met up with another man, William Howell. We don't know why. But it was here that simple chose to abandon the mission. Perhaps by then it was so clear that the confederacy had been defeated and would never rise again that simple and Tidball didn't see the point in sending some perfectly useful gold off to in some English Bank for eternity Tidball in Howell. Both used their cats to start new lives for themselves and live out their days in comfort, but simples actions warrant further investigation, simple, laid low for the next few months. He was definitely wanted by union thirties who by then knew he had made off with some of the treasury money. Additionally, it was likely he was also being hunted by ex confederate bounty hunters after Clark learned that the money had never made it to England when. Simple showed up back on the radar in eighteen sixty six he had hatched a plan to potentially save. The south simple aim to use his gold to push the United States into a war with Britain. He figured that. The north would need the help of the southern states in the event of such a war. And thus the northern forces would be forced to concede. Some of the harsher conditions of reconstruction. Simple became involved with the Phoenicians a precursor to the Irish Republican Army. The Phoenicians aim to push the British out of Ireland and had set a basis in the United States where they could plan without fear of being captured simple knew that the British government was not happy that the American government was doing little to stop the Phoenix from scheming against them. The fact that the US had just concluded a civil war and was currently in the slow painful process of rebuilding itself as a nation didn't really register with the British. Simples plan was to use his gold to fund the Fenian movement's raising awareness across America, and gaining followers. If he could get enough Americans to support Irish liberation then perhaps eventually Britain would declare war on America. Then his master plan would go into effect. This plan didn't work what a shock simple gave up on the Fenian plot after he had invested most of his gold. He died in eighteen eighty three with little to his name. The simple stories seems to confirm what became of the last of the confederate treasure. Well, as we've stated it's certainly possible that there was more treasure that left Richmond. And that additional treasure did make its way to Michigan or Georgia, or wherever it really seems most likely that the majority of the confederate treasury was spent on efforts to keep the confederacy itself alive while we still can't account for the one hundred eighty thousand dollars worth of Richmond, Bank, money stolen, from union troops. It seems just as likely that the gold was quietly spent until there was nothing left the final question. Then is that given all we know about what really became of the confederate treasure. Why is there still so much speculation that it still out there? The obvious answer is the missing one hundred eighty thousand dollars that was stolen by robbers and never recovered. Furthermore, there was so much gold being moved around. In this time that it has always been impossible to state how much there was. Meaning no matter how much is accounted for. There can always be more the potential existence of the treasure carries with it a cultural importance. It's not controversial to state that many who lived in the southern United States following the civil war considered themselves to be a part of the confederate states of America. Even after the confederate states were retaken by the union. The legend of the treasure shows, a cultural longing a fantasy of some lost amount of gold that might have been used to give rise to a new confederacy. Even as the civil war became a memory, the legend of the treasure persisted. This was enhanced by the gold's prevalence in popular culture. It is appeared in comic books western films, including the good the bad and the ugly, and the Clive customer novel Sahara, which was adapted into a film of the same name. Name. Why such a cultural obsession, perhaps it has something to do with the promise of sudden riches, the reality of treasure hunting is that you rarely get to keep all of what you find most nations, including the United States have laws governing. What can and can't be kept by the finder? Even if you do find treasure the country of origin for that treasure can claim part or most of it as historical property, but confederate treasure is different. There is no confederate government in existence. And thus there is no one to lay claim to any confederate gold that might be found. It makes sense and the sheer number of questions about the treasures whereabouts. Ensure that people will still continue to search for it for some time. However, we believe that the third theory is the most valid the confederate treasury was already poultry when Jefferson Davis fled Richmond. It seems most likely that he space. Meant what he needed to just keep the confederate government alive, and what was left with squandered by James simple. It's not the most exciting conclusion. But then again, it's better than scouring the bottom of a leg for treasure. That simply isn't there? Thanks again for tuning into gone. We'll be back in two weeks with another episode. You can find more episodes of gone as well as all of par casts. Other podcasts on apple podcasts. Spotify Stitcher, Google play or your favorite podcast directory. Several of you have asked how to help us if you enjoy the show the best way to help us is to leave a five star review. And don't forget to follow us on Facebook and Instagram at par cast and Twitter at parkas network will see next time gone was created. By max Cutler is a production of Cutler media and is part of the park cast network. It is produced by Maxon Ron Cutler sound design by Paul liba skinned with production assistance by Ron Shapiro. Paul Moller, Maggie admire and Carly Madden. Gone is written by Colin McLaughlin, and stars. Molly Brandenburg, and Richard Russ ner. And here it is a clip of the first episode of crimes of passion. It's about the murder of Edwin and Wilma Hoyt to hear the full. I episode subscribe to crimes of passion. Wherever you listen to podcasts due to the graphic nature of this couple's crimes. Listener discretion is advised. This episode includes discussions of sexual situations that some people may find offensive we advise extreme caution for children under the age of thirteen. Before k could pull back the blanket for her daughters. They had already scrambled onto the huge mattress bouncing with glee sleeping over at someone else's house felt like a special treat like they were on vacation and staying at a hotel K encourage the fantasy if she didn't want the girl's father to notice they'd been at her boyfriend's house K settled the girls in for the night tucking them snugly under the blanket, sleep tight. Don't let the bed bugs bite. She gave them each kiss. Then turned off the light before she closed the door. She reminded the girls they weren't allowed to come out of the room until morning mommy's friends needed quiet time, and she trusted the girls to behave. They promised she blew them each another kiss and shut them in for the night k- climb the creaking basement steps to the main floor. She shut the door at the. Atop the stairs. And locked it. No interruptions, when she reached the master bedroom. K was humming. With anticipation inside the man, she loved waited for her. Well, him and his wife while tonight was a Coleman nation of weeks of planning. It would also Mark the beginning of a relationship that would change case life forever. A tryst that would turn deadly. Hi, I'm Lena Hobbs. And this is our new podcast crimes of passion on the park has network. The legal definition of a crime of passion is a murder that occurs in the throes extreme emotion, leaving no time to reflect on the consequences. But in this show, we explore passionate crimes. How does a marriage progress from husband and wife to killer and victim or killer and co conspirator if there's a thin line between love and hate what manipulates our relationships into deadly results. At park cast. We are grateful for you our listeners you allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we are doing reach out on Facebook and Instagram at par cast and Twitter at park network. And if you enjoy today's episode the best way to help us is to leave a five star review wherever you are listening. It really does help us. We also now have merch head of parkas dot com slash merch. For more information. Herald, and INA Nokes lived a typical small town existence in mccook, Nebraska, breezing their children and running a cafe in their mid forties. They started an unconventional relationship with twenty nine year old k wait Hein that eventually turned deadly. In this episode will probe the nurses relationship with Kay, how it developed and leader devolved next week will explore the aftermath of murder the investigation and the consequences. When herald married INA an April nineteen Forty-six. Neither of them had graduated yet from cook high school in Brassica eighteen year old herald was still a month shy of earning. His diploma INA sixteen and pregnant when dropout and never finish herald was tall athletic and high school basketball player with thick black hair. Although known to be reserved he was hard working and while liked while herald stood over six feet tall came in just under five classmates said that e had pursued herald all through high school speculating that she'd probably had her sights set on marriage all along they welcome to baby girl in December of nineteen forty six heralds decision to stand by EMA Mary her and raise a family at such a young age was an early testament of his loyalty to her the young couple moved. Denver Colorado after the birth. They had both spent the entirety of their lives in Brassica and move their little family west to find new opportunities, but they didn't adjust well to life in a big city after only three months, they returned to Nebraska in nineteen forty seven herald an Email were well suited for each other enjoying boating camping and hunting together was an expert shot in particular said to be able to shoot the eye out of a hawk. The family welcomed another child in nineteen fifty when Eno was twenty and herald twenty two the couple Ranna cafe in mccook Nebraska until they sold it in nineteen fifty nine herald went on to work for the Nebraska department of roads leading a crew of men responsible for repair and maintenance of the roads bridges rest areas and road signs in mccook and the surrounding areas it was through this position than in nineteen sixty eight he was introduced to Wayne Hine and eventually Dwayne wife Kay, Hoyt Hein. K white hind was born in nineteen forty three. The middle daughter of five children. She was heavily doted upon by her parents, Edwin and Wilma and could do no wrong in their eyes. According to James Hewitt's book on the notices in cold storage case siblings labeled her as manipulative able to work her parents from young age whenever it was case turn to dry the dishes. She was attacked by sneezing fits unable to continue the chore, even though she had no documented allergies Wilma would swoop in an excuse K taking over the drying for her just to note before we continue. I am not a license I interest or psychologist, but I have done a lot of research for the show psychologist Carl pick heart author of surviving your child at a leci- would classify case behavior as manipulative he posits that has children. Age manipulation of parental authority through lying. Pretense and pressuring becomes more common faced with the child's tantrum. The parent feels regret or remorse for saying. No or simply seeks relief from the emotional intensity and so- relents. Keanu from young age what buttons to push in her parents to receive whatever she desired like herald in ENA K weight and her future husband, Wayne Hein were high school sweethearts named the Kenyan Queen of hearts at the Valentine's dance. Their senior year in nineteen sixty one doing was a star athlete in high school and described by a classmate as one of the nicest most decent guys I have ever known. They were married in nineteen sixty one soon after graduating from high school and had two daughters Brinda and Angela, but their relationship changed over the course of their marriage, K, constantly, belittled. Her husband those familiar with a couple agreed. Dwayne was a good husband and father deserving better treatment than he received from his wife Kay was opened with her complaints about d'alene telling several friends that he made no effort to accommodate her. Sexual needs into sires. She felt he was more interested in his own outdoor hobbies than spending any time with her case criticisms of her husband as well as the treatment of her parents might indicate some narcissistic tendencies on her part. According to Darlene Lancer, an expert on toxic relationships common forms of narcissistic abuse against loved ones include verbal abuse such as belittling or bullying as well as manipulation. People with narcissistic personality disorder, commonly have a sense of entitlement and require excessive admiration from those around them in case mine doing wasn't doing enough to reinforce her happiness, and that should have been his priority above all else. Just like our parents. In nineteen sixty eight twenty five year old Dwayne took a labor job on a road, maintenance crew and mccook Nebraska. Introducing him to Harold Nokes despite their fifteen year age difference, the men had similar interests and became close friends. Introducing their wives socially twenty five year old k and thirty nine year old also connected. The both worked in downtown mccook and would often have lunch together. The couple started going out to dinner and dancing as well as taking camping trips K was never much of an outdoors woman. But she tolerated. These excursions to be closer to herald Nokes, she was increasingly attracted to the older man as her feelings towards Dwayne continued to cool and on new years nineteen seventy K told herald of her interest. K love to dance as DeWayne swished her around the floor of the decorated elks club. She took stock of the rest of the couples present she was definitely the prettiest woman here and the best dancer, she show off even more. If her husband was a more competent partner, he could barely spent her without entangling their arms DeWayne was handsome in his tux. But useless with his feet. She watched herald an EMA across the room. They're mismatch tight made them. Look like a cartoon couple the way herald towered over his wife made them unsuited to most of the more complicated dance steps, but they may do. When the band took a break k into Wayne reunited with the other couple at a table in offend herself. In complained all the dancing was making her sweat herald quickly leapt up to fetch his wife at drink and k twinge with jealousy. She made a similar comment to her husband, Wayne. She too was touch warm. He just pulled out his handkerchief to dab his forehead agreeing about the temperature and sucked on a beer bottle. What a block head when the music started again, Enid declined her husband's arm. Her feet were tired K hopped up to take her place. Instead, she was more than happy to keep herald company on the dance floor and lever own husband's two left feet behind. He handily lead K through her best steps, they moved to the center of the dance floor and soon the other couples were circled around watching then the music suddenly stopped again. It was almost midnight. Ena Wayne join their spouses in preparation of the new year K felt like Cinderella. As prince charming was replaced with Dwayne the pumpkin the crowd chanted account down five four K took a step away from her husband to be closer to herald three two. She tapped herald on the shoulder one happy new year K leaned in and kissed herald slips to her surprise, he kissed back even nineteen seventy even Frasca a New Year's kiss between friends wasn't out of the ordinary. Probably nothing that either of their spouses would have even commented on, but it would Mark the first step of K in heralds affair. A little over a month after New Year's Eve K white hind called herald Nokes she needed to talk to him about something important. He picked her up from work than after noon. So they could speak away from her husband. They drove for a bit west from the city and then parked on a quiet dirt road K told herald how she felt about DeWayne he didn't love her or take care of her. Most importantly, he didn't satisfy her needs. She felt so much more attracted to someone like herald they slept together. Then in there in the front seat of heralds parked car. Igniting the affair according to psychologists Douglas LaPierre. There are six common types of extramarital affairs for K. This was most likely in I'll show you a fair aimed at retaliating against her husband, Wayne who she felt hadn't shown her. The proper amount of attention for years in this type of affair, the anger and resentment towards one spouse isn't dealt with simply overshadowed by the new relationship, and in some cases, those feelings can shift to the new partner over time. Herald later told law enforcement that K was a hard woman to satisfy who enjoyed a variety of sexual experiences by March of nineteen seventy they were meeting each other weekly at various hotels and rest stops in south Nebraska. Despite their age difference. Twenty eight year old Kay started to fall in love with forty three year old herald as the affair continued over the next several months she began fantasizing about sharing a life with him having a real relationship. This was no longer just in a fair. But true love herald was always quick to talk her down. They had responsibilities to their spouses in a- and Dwayne. In nineteen seventy one K divorced herself from those responsibilities at that time Nebraska did not have a no fault force option meaning K had to prove acts of extreme cruelty. On Wayne's part. K turned to her parents for help case parents, Edwin and Wilma where lifelong Nebraska's and generally salt of the earth, people N when grew up on a farm and always kept a piece of land to work through his life. Even if only part time Wilma was a doting mother to her five children and an even more attentive grandmother and went in Wilma love to go fishing together and attend pinochle parties K was always more reliant on her parents than the other four siblings. Perhaps because K was the last one to feed her maternal, Dr Wilma could never resist an urge to help her daughter. She could be classified as an enabler. Two ks manipulative behaviour, according to Dr Jeffrey Bernstein, this relationship dynamic stems from parents who want to be needed. They want their child to be happy on his own yet. They live in fear of not doing enough to help their child. Get their Wilma's entire world was her children and grandchildren at the time of k into Wayne's divorce hearing, neither of the Hoyts had any inkling of the affair with herald Nokes. So when k told them that Dwayne yelled at her and the girls verbally abusing them. And when and Wilma were happy to take the stand for their daughter. The judge sided with K and granted the divorce awarding her full custody shortly after doing move to Colorado and remarried their Wilma would later discover that the testimony she gave was entirely false with doing out of the picture. Kate urged herald to follow suit divorcing. So they could be together finally in may of nineteen seventy two over two years after the affair began herald said enough down to talk he confessed everything to her about his relationship with k.

President Jefferson Davis Richmond confederacy United States confederate treasury confederate government Georgia confederate army Lake Michigan Wilma Hoyt Edwin America treasury murder Richmond Bank Facebook Twitter union army Robert E Lee
S8: Treasure Hunt: Confederate Gold

Parcast Presents

38:46 min | 6 months ago

S8: Treasure Hunt: Confederate Gold

"In eighteen sixty five confederate President Jefferson Davis fled with hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of gold what happened next has been debated by historians and treasure hunters over the last one hundred and fifty years. If you enjoy this episode and WanNa Hear More. Tales of history's most mystifying. Disappearances subscribe to gone in addition to new episodes of gone every other Monday. You'll get a special mini episode on off Monday's but only on spotify until then enjoy this episode on the missing confederate gold in April of sixty five the civil war head all but ended confederate. General Robert E Lee was preparing to formally surrender the bulk of the confederate army to Ulysses S Grant Union forces were advancing into the southern states reclaiming the failed nation for the United States of America confederate president. Jefferson Davis received word that a union battalion was on route to capture the confederate capital city of Richmond. Virginia as the city burned Davis fled with the members of his cabinet. The group took with them. A massive cache of gold reportedly all that was left of the confederate treasury. The treasurer is likely valued at millions of dollars in today's currency though the exact value has been debated by historians. But what is known? Is this when Davis and the rest of his cabinet were captured in. May of eighteen. Sixty five the treasure that they had on them was seized and sent north. It never reached its destination. There are numerous rumors as to where all that treasure ended up over. The past one hundred fifty years treasure hunters and historians have looked all over the United States for the missing gold and yet after all this time the confederate gold has eluded all efforts to find it. It's a true American treasure hunt. Hi I'm molly and I'm Richard. Welcome to gone on the podcast network. Every other Monday we examined mysterious disappearances and the theories they spawned from the Amber Room to Michael Rockefeller Picasso paintings to the trust can language the roanoke colony to the lost Russian. Cosmonauts if it's gone we're looking for it at par cast. We're grateful for you our listeners. You allow us to do what we love. Let us know how doing reach out on facebook and Instagram. At podcast and twitter at podcast network. And if you enjoy today's episode the best way to help us is to leave a five star review. Wherever you're listening. It really does help us. We also now have merch head to cast dot com slash merch. For more information you can find previous episodes as well as podcasts. Other podcasts on your favorite podcast directory in this episode. We're looking into the confederate gold that reportedly vanished in eighteen sixty five as the remnants of the confederate government tried to avoid capture. This treasure is commonly referred to as confederate gold however this treasurer was more of a myriad of precious metals in addition to gold. The cash also included Mexican silver dollars and valuable jewelry however for consistency sake will refer to the treasure as the confederate gold for the duration of this episode treasure has become a recurring plot device in adventure novels and films. The Myth of this confederate gold has long overshadowed the real historical story in this episode. We're going to examine the historical events that led Jefferson Davis to flee Richmond with the treasurer on that fateful night in eighteen sixty five then will examine the most likely theories as to where the treasurer ended up as is the case with most missing treasure. There are dozens of reported locations where the gold is suspected to have been hidden for this episode. We're looking at the possibilities. That are most supported by historical facts. The first theory is that the bulk of the treasure was stolen by outlaws most likely deserters from the confederate army who buried the gold somewhere in the southern United States. The second theory is that the gold was actually stolen by union troops who were tasked with transporting it back to Washington D. C. Instead the soldiers smuggled the gold north all the way to Lake Michigan where it sunk and still remains to this day. Our third theory is that there is no hidden treasure. The legend grew out of rumors and hearsay surrounding the end of the confederacy. And that story has persisted to this day. Thanks to conspiracy theories and sensationalism given the hindsight of history. It can be easy to forget. How complicated the civil war actually was. It's not a stretch to say that the confederate states of America were doomed from the start. It's probably a good thing that seceding from the United States to form a separate nation is hard to do. Even after the southern states seceded the remaining United States where a military and economic force to be reckoned with there were a number of issues that led to the civil war including economics states rights against the Federal Government and the enmity between the northern and southern states. Just to name a few but the single main causes of the war was slavery there were only thirty three ratified states in eighteen sixty as the United States spread across the Western frontier the US Congress ran into a problem. Abolition Ism the Movement to abolish slavery had been present in America. Since the country was founded in seventeen seventy six for the entirety of the country's history. The southern states had effectively banded together in Congress to vote down any movement to end slavery on a national level but the southern leaders couldn't stop individual states from ending slavery within their own borders every new state that entered the union. Got To choose whether it would be a free state or a slave state by the eighteen. Forty s there was a chance. That the anti-slavery congressman might outnumber the pro slavery ones. If that happened the south might not have been able to stop national abolition of slavery. The South responded by forcing protection measures including legislation which stated that for every Free State admitted to the Union AH CORRESPONDING SLAVE. State must also be admitted so that the balance was maintained but by eighteen sixty compromise between the two sides seemed like an impossible dream with the eighteen sixty election. It was becoming painfully clear that the issue of slavery was not going to go away peacefully. Although Abraham Lincoln did not seek to abolish slavery in the south as part of his political platform he did want to restrict it spread to states and the southern leadership made it clear that they would vote to secede if Lincoln was elected. The question of secession was complicated at face value. A single state breaking free of the United States was illegal and unconstitutional however considering that the original thirteen colonies broke free from Britain to rebel against an oppressive regime. The southern states felt that they were just honoring history. Lincoln was elected and the southern states led by south. Carolina voted to secede beginning in December of eighteen sixty by March of eighteen sixty one South Carolina Mississippi Florida Georgia Louisiana Texas and Alabama officially formed the confederate states of America. The war officially began with the battle of Fort Sumter on April twelfth. Eighteen sixty one. The first of many vital tasks for the new nation was to establish leadership shortly after the formation of the confederacy former Mississippi. Senator Jefferson Davis was elected as the country's first president he would also be the nation's only President Davis was a popular choice in eighteen. Sixty one because of this pro slavery politics and his stance on states rights however his appointment would ultimately do more harm than good his blunders particularly in the matters of military and economic decisions would contribute to the confederacies downfall. That isn't to say that. The rogue nations quick demise was entirely Davis's fault. The reality is that there no realistic chance. The confederacy would win. The war in a head-on military battle war is expensive and complicated. Especially when you're also trying to establish a new country. The confederacy simply lacked the necessary manpower leadership and Finances to combat the more organized union forces before the confederacy was even one year. Old Davis was forced to declare martial law and enforce a draft of all able bodied men to fight in the war though the confederacy boasted. Some of the more accomplished military officers in the United States at the time it was lacking for infantrymen the confederate government was no more organized given that the rogue nation was formed in large part because state leaders didn't want to submit to a federal government. Davis had trouble commanding his own cabinet. This is significant mostly because it meant that the confederacy never got its finances into decent shape. Previously the southern states had largely relied on farming and the production of raw resources like cotton as a benchmark of their economy. These resources had to be sent north where the factories were in order to be turned into useful materials. Since the south was now at war with the north they no longer had access to the industrial facilities that were required to produce weapons and war supplies from the outset. The confederacy was outgunned. Additionally they had few options for trading most nations didn't recognize the legitimacy of the confederacy and thus the newly established confederate currency was useless. Almost everywhere as such. The confederacy did everything. It could to consolidate more universal currency such as gold and silver in the later years of the war. The confederate government even confiscated jewelry and other valuables in order to combat. It's growing financial crisis. This was all held in the confederate capital city of Richmond. Virginia all of these efforts to bolster the confederate states of America were futile as we said. The southern states had little chance against the more organized well supplied union army. This is where the confederacy was in eighteen. Sixty five outmanned poorly supplied and in possession of a rapidly dwindling supply of money as union forces scored victory after victory. Jefferson Davis WAS ATTENDING CHURCH ON APRIL. Second eighteen sixty five when he received word from General Robert E Lee. The message was simple. Richmond must be evacuated in the confederate government must flee if the nation was to survive the night. Davis ordered confederate troops to set Richmond. Ablaze said that the Advancing Union army would not be able to make use of any supplies. They found within the city then. He ordered the full contents of the treasury loaded onto train cars in preparation for departure. We should state here. That the exact amount and value of this treasure has long been disputed. Impossible to confirm since the treasure has yet to be found but the general account states that the bulk of the treasure consisted of gold silver and bullion valued at around five hundred thousand dollars. Additionally there were millions of dollars in confederate currency. Though as we've said it was generally useless. Finally the troops loaded up the seized assets from a number of Richmond's private banks which added another four hundred and fifty thousand dollars value. The treasure was split up a number of times during the journey and we can't account for every individual crater barrel that might have been misplaced by confederate soldiers. But we can track the journey of the bulk of the goal to appoint Jefferson's initial plan had been to flee south and use the funds from the treasurer to establish a new base to continue the war effort however the plan quickly unravelled. The convoy reached the end of the train. Line in Danville Virginia. The party was forced to carry what they could on horseback before. The treasure had been consolidated to a single train car but now it was being spread out among the numerous men horses and mules. Additionally the soldiers with Jefferson were growing restless. They hadn't been paid and as a union. Victory seemed more and more inevitable. They started to grumble about whether what they were doing was really worth it. The confederate leaders were forced to use part of the treasure to pay for their own military detail. Jefferson eventually split the treasure up the money. Taken from the Richmond banks was placed in a vault in the city. The rest of the Treasury money was assigned to confederate secretary of war John Breckenridge most of the confederate cabinet was captured in the city of Washington. Georgia in May of eighteen sixty five Davis was captured just days later. Union soldiers recovered the Richmond Bank money but the rest of the treasurer was missing. There are two main reasons that it's so difficult to track what happened to all of this treasure. The first is that the treasure was large but easily split up into small containers. The treasure dwindled and fractured moves south. And thus it became harder and harder to track where every single cent ended up the second more concrete. Reason is that there's not a lot of hard documentation from this particular period in early May of eighteen sixty five. The confederate cabinet burned most of their government documents which included treasury slips. The goal in doing this was to prevent union troops from finding out about the treasure. The Jefferson Davis had sent away. Unfortunately it also makes it hard for modern historians to find out what really happened to the mounds of gold. That for all we know could still be out there somewhere waiting to be discovered. We'll dive into the main theories as to what happened to the confederate gold. Right after this now back to the story in eighteen sixty five a large sum of gold and precious. Metals was sent south from Richmond Virginia in an effort to preserve the confederate states of America when the caravan was captured along with most of the confederate cabinet. A large chunk of the gold was missing. One thing to note about our first. Two theories is that they're not mutually exclusive. Since we know the treasure was likely split up among various parties. It's possible that what remains of the gold is in separate locations across the United States. Recall that the treasure which set out from Richmond Virginia was made of two distinct sums the approximately five hundred thousand dollars of gold silver and jewelry and an additional four hundred and fifty thousand dollars in gold and silver coins seized from the private banks of Richmond. This may surprise you when most people discuss confederate gold. They're actually referring to the money from the Richmond banks. We'll discuss the fate of the actual confederate treasure soon. But our first theory contends that a large sum of the treasure was buried somewhere in Georgia by robbers who stole the gold from the Union Forces. That were returning north. Here's what we do now. As far as our first theory is concerned on May Fourth Eighteen Sixty Five Jefferson Davis signed the order that officially dissolved the confederate states of America. The next day union troops captured the city and the gold and silver from the Richmond. Banks are there was some debate among the union leaders as to what to do with the four hundred fifty thousand taken from the Richmond Banks. The owners of the banks had been complicit with the confederacy after all ultimately the decision was made that the money should be returned on. May Twenty four th eighteen sixty five a small contingent of union soldiers guiding five wagons loaded with bank assets departed Georgia for Richmond. If you've ever seen a western movie you can guess what happened next. The Caravan was hit in the middle of the night. Eight by a gang of robbers more likely than not had been informed of the treasure. The thieves made off with everything they could carry over two hundred ninety thousand dollars worth of treasure in all the remaining funds did make it to Richmond but the now ex confederate leaders there were in about to let some deserters make off like bandits. The money from the Richmond banks would prove useful to the southern reconstruction so General Edward Alexander put together a posse and went after the thieves when all was said and done. Dozens of men were dead and Alexander's outfit had recovered about one hundred and ten thousand dollars leaving one hundred eighty thousands still unaccounted for that money. Which would amount to over three million dollars today has never been found? American forces made efforts during the reconstruction to recover the stolen funds. But nothing ever came of them. What's most likely is that? The thieves spent the remainder of the stolen gold in such a way. That didn't draw attention. The southern United States was in bad shape following the civil war so it's entirely plausible. That the men just kept their heads down and spend a little bit at a time until the loot was all gone however cultural interests into gold has led to additional theories that while not exactly likely due. Warrants examination is the best example of this is the nineteen seventy five book. Snow White Sands by Martha Meisel Puckett. The book is a history of Georgia through the civil war and one of its most notable chapters concerns the missing confederate Gold Puckett points to the case of Sylvester Mumford. A wealthy Georgia merchant who allegedly was present at Jefferson Davis final cabinet meeting Mumford. A die hard confederate loyalist had been part of the plan to rob the Union Caravan and retake the Richmond Bank funds after recovering. The money Mumford. Put it to work. Georgia was a farming state and much of its fertile farmland had been destroyed by union forces during the war. Mumford use the stolen treasure to order vast amounts of corn seed from South America in order to help restart Georgia's farming economy when Mumford died. His daughter used her large inheritance to open an orphanage and provide scholarships for children in need much of the evidence of Mumford involvement in the story. Is that by all accounts. His own plantations had been destroyed during the war and few historians can account for his maintained wealth during and after the conflict. That said. There's not much here in terms of hard proof. Besides the notable coincidence Mumford could be the embodiment of the theory but the goal simply never left Georgia. And that's entirely possible. But according to our second theory the gold did make it out of the south to the northernmost reaches of the United States. Our second theory concerns. What is likely the most popular belief regarding the missing confederate gold? It states that a big part of the treasure was smuggled to Michigan. While crossing Lake Michigan into Canada a boxcar containing the treasure was dropped. Overboard and the gold is still at the bottom of the lake. The legend of the missing confederate gold has seen a resurgence of public interest. In recent years this is largely due to a documentary series that aired on the history channel in early two thousand eighteen it was titled. The curse of the civil war gold and it follows Mardi Laguna and his team search for confederate gold at the bottom of Lake Michigan. So how on Earth could confederate gold. Make It from Georgia to Michigan without anyone. Knowing about it we call that union troops were tasked with transporting the Richmond Bank funds. Back North to Richmond. According to this story there was more than one northern outfit tasked with transporting the captured money the documentary series states that this gold was taken from Jefferson when he was captured on May tenth eighteen. Sixty five as we've said it's hard to keep track of the differing amounts of money that the confederacy made off with while we have a general guess as to how much money made up the initial amount of treasure. It's entirely possible that the numbers were fabricated in order to hide some of the treasure or saying that in any theory it's nearly impossible to state. How much treasure there actually was or where it came from but this particular theory maintains that a group of union soldiers all from Michigan found a cache of confederate gold among Jefferson Davis's personal effects and conspired to smuggle north to keep for themselves. The men were attempting to move the gold. In a boxcar across Lake Michigan to smuggle into Canada. The weather was bad. The crew were forced to dump the boxcar overboard in order to save the ship from sinking. That treasure has remained at the bottom of Lake Michigan. Ever since a number of recent find seemed to help corroborate this story. The first confirmation is a deathbed confession made to the grandfather of one. Kevin Dykstra a treasure hunter featured in the history channel. Docu series the confession came from George Alexander. Abbott a housekeeper. Who In one thousand nine hundred twenty? One admitted to being one of the Union soldiers who stole the gold and smuggled it to Michigan. He stated that the gold was lost Lake Michigan. And it still there. The words of one man almost a hundred years ago might not seem like much to go on but as the story was passed down it started to generate interest in Lake Michigan as a potential site missing treasurer ultimately the documentary series doesn't end with the discovery of the long lost gold. If the Treasury really is down there it makes for a fantastic story. But there's a few notable discrepancies in this theory. The curse of the civil war gold claims that the treasure hidden at the bottom of Lake Michigan was approximately two million in gold. Bullion or bars. This would make the Lake Michigan treasure by far the largest amount of gold to be associated with the confederate treasure. That left Richmond the counts. We've read put the confederate gold at around five hundred thousand dollars plus the additional four hundred and fifty thousand in Richmond Bank funds. So for this theory to be true it would mean that the single amount stolen by the Michigan Union troops was worth double that of the entire rest of the total treasure. This account is further contradicted by numerous sources. St Jefferson Davis took only thirty five thousand dollars worth of gold for himself when he fled Georgia. Still Jefferson Davis was not a good person. It's certainly possible. He withheld a huge sum of treasure for himself before he abandoned his cabinet and his army to save his own life. As we've said there are enough discrepancies in this story to make any claim as to the real value of treasure dubious at best given that. There's not much else in terms of proof that the gold ever made it to Michigan. We have to say this theory warrants a little more skepticism. Still if we've learned anything from our look into the subject. It's that the treasure could be almost anywhere. But what if it's nowhere as in? What if the legend of this confederate gold has only grown so large? Because it's covering up the truth. The treasure was lost long ago. Coming up we'll cover that very idea in our next theory now. Back to the story in eighteen sixty five. A cache of confederate treasure was lost amidst the chaos at the end of the civil war. The location of the treasure has been theorized to be everywhere from buried in Georgia. To the bottom of lake. Michigan stories of missing treasure tend to stick with us. Because there's always a chance someone could still find it if it still exists. Our third and most anticlimactic theory is that there is no treasure what remained of the confederate. Treasury was quickly spent away in the weeks and months following the war and only legends and fictionalized accounts have kept the myth of the confederate gold alive for this long. The challenge of locating the treasure has always been wrapped up in the value of the treasure. That was taken from Richmond in eighteen. Sixty five the most thorough sources put the number at around five hundred thousand in gold and precious metals. Though there long has been speculation that the real value of the treasure was much higher. The union government actually helped perpetuate this rumor northern leaders likely hadn't realized how dire the financial situation of the confederacy was in eighteen. Sixty five as union forces began capturing more and more confederate strongholds. The Union leadership started to put the word out about the missing funds from the confederate treasury. The Union soldiers were not finding much gold when they captured fortresses and they didn't believe that was all there was. It seemed to them that the confederacy was hiding large sums of money. The real value of the confederate Treasury was likely on the smaller side. For All the reasons we've mentioned the confederacy had been hemorrhaging money in its efforts to raise an army strong enough to fight off the north if we accept that the confederate leadership really was only carrying five hundred thousand and personal assets when they fled. Richmond in April of eighteen. Sixty five it actually becomes a little simpler to figure out what happened right from the start. There's a recorded loss. We know that Jefferson Davis fled with his party and the treasurer on April second eighteen sixty five however on April sixth. A man named Walter. Phil made a tally of the treasure and came up nearly two hundred thousand dollars short. The reason for the discrepancy was due to fifty barrels of Mexican silver coins. Valued at four thousand dollars apiece. These barrels seemed to have vanished at some point between April. Second when the Treasury left Richmond and the April sixth tally. It's unknown why the barrels were separated from the rest of the treasure and speculation exists to this day that the silver is buried. Somewhere in Danville. Virginia where Phil Brooke made the tally. It's also possible that the silver was tallied in Richmond but never made it onto the initial train out of town. Historians generally agree that the silver was intended to pay the soldiers in general. Lee's army which at that time had been set to catch up with Davis and the rest of the confederate leaders. It could have been left behind in Danville for Lee to recover on his march. If so the silver would have likely been confiscated by union troops so already. The value of the confederate treasure is down from five hundred thousand to just over three hundred thousand in four days as the fall of the confederacy became more and more evident soldiers in the confederate army. Were left wondering what they were still fighting for to that end. It was vital that the confederate leadership keep their men paid to avoid mutiny on April. Seventh as the convoy passed through carrier. Mina there's a record of thirty nine thousand dollar payment to one General Johnson and his men. This battalion had not surrendered and would likely be needed to blockade any union forces pursuing Davis. It was not money. Well spent Johnson and his men surrendered just over two weeks later so now of that original some five hundred thousand Davis had less than three hundred thousand and we've only covered the major deductions the treasury. Money would have been called upon to pay for food and transportation for the entire group as it continued. Its journey south. It took nearly a month for the party to reach its destination Washington Georgia. They're the confederate leadership was faced with the growing problem of troop dissatisfaction. The men had been marching for weeks and too many of them. The writing was on the wall they knew would not be paid. If the remainder of the treasury money was captured by Union forces. John Breckenridge. The confederate secretary of war had no choice but to pay each of the men. Twenty six dollars for a total cost of over one hundred thousand dollars when Jefferson Davis fled. Washington he was reportedly given thirty five thousand in gold to both support himself. And if the chance came oversee a resurgent confederacy. By this point the confederacy had been dissolved and it was left to the cabinet to disperse the remainder of the treasure. After payments to some of the cabinet members and additional expenses the confederate treasure would have amounted to less than one hundred thousand dollars the rate at which the confederate treasury dwindled after. Jefferson Davis fled. Richmond is concerning and certainly raises. The possibility that the rest of the money was spent as well. The final piece of the story that confirms this particular Theory Concerns One. James a simple. According to one account Captain McKay Asia Clark was the last man to be made responsible for the confederate treasury before it was captured by the Union. Army IT WAS. Clark who oversaw the dispersal of what remained of the treasure when all the expenses were paid. Clark was left with a surplus of eighty six thousand dollars. He presented this to navy. Lieutenant James Simple Clark ordered simple to hide the money and smuggle at South to Savannah from their Clark had made arrangements for the goal to be shipped to England where it would be deposited in a bank account await the day that the confederacy would rise again. Simple was partnered with another officer. Edward Ball the two men didn't even make it halfway to Savannah in the city of Augusta. Just fifty miles from where they set off simple and tidball met up with another man William Howell. We don't know why but it was here. That simple chose to abandon the mission. Perhaps by then it was so clear that the confederacy had been defeated and would never is again. That simple and tidball didn't see the point in sending some perfectly useful gold off to rot in some English bank for Eternity tidball and how both used their cuts to start new lives for themselves and live out their days in comfort but samples actions warrant further investigation simple laid low for the next few months. He was definitely wanted by union authorities. Who By then knew he had made off with some of the treasury money. Additionally it was likely he was also being hunted by ex confederate bounty hunters after Clark learned that the money had never made it to England when simple showed up back on the radar in eighteen sixty six he had hatched a plan to potentially save the South simple aim to use his gold to push the United States into a war with Britain. He figured that the North would need the help of the southern states. In the event of such a war and thus the northern forces would be forced to concede some of the harsher conditions of reconstruction semple became involved with the Phoenicians a precursor to the Irish Republican Army. The Phoenicians aim to push the British out of Ireland and had set a basis in the United States where they could plan without fear of being captured. Simple knew that the British government was not happy that the American government was doing little to stop the Phoenix from scheming against them. The fact that the US had just concluded a civil war and was currently in the slow painful process of rebuilding itself as a nation. Didn't really register with the British simples. Plan was to use his gold to fund. The fenian movement's raising awareness across America and gaining followers if he could get enough Americans to support Irish liberation then perhaps eventually Britain would declare war on America. Then his master plan would go into effect. This plan didn't work. What a shock. Simple gave up on the FENIAN PLOT. After he had invested. Most of his gold he died in eighteen. Eighty three with little to his name. The simple story seems to confirm what became of the last of the confederate treasurer. Well as we stated. It's certainly possible that there was more treasure that left Richmond and that additional treasure did make its way to Michigan or Georgia or wherever it really seems most likely that the majority of the confederate Treasury was spent on efforts to keep the confederacy itself alive while we still can account for the one hundred eighty thousand dollars worth of Richmond Bank money stolen from union troops. It seems just as likely that the gold was quietly spent until there was nothing left. The final question then is that given all we know about what really became of the confederate treasure. Why is there still so much speculation that it's still out there? The obvious answer is the missing one hundred eighty thousand dollars that was stolen by robbers and never recovered. Furthermore there was so much gold being moved around in this time that it has always been impossible to state how much there was. Meaning no matter. How much is accounted for? There can always be more. The potential existence of the treasure carries with it a cultural importance. It's not controversial to state that many who lived in the southern United States following the civil war considered themselves to be a part of the confederate states of America even after the confederate states were retaken by the Union. The legend of the treasure shows cultural longing. A fantasy of some lost amount of gold. That might've been used to give rise to a new confederacy. Even as the civil war became a memory. The legend of the treasure persisted. This was enhanced by the Gold's prevalence in popular culture. It is appeared in comic books. Western films including the good the bad and the ugly and the Clive cussler novel Sahara which was adapted into a film of the same name. Why such a cultural obsession? Perhaps it has something to do with the promise of sudden riches. The reality of treasure hunting is that you rarely get to keep all of what you find. Most nations including the United States have laws governing. What can and can't be kept by the finder even if you do find treasure. The country of origin for that treasure can claim part or most of it as historical property but confederate. Treasure is different. There is no confederate government in existence. And thus there is no one to lay claim to any confederate gold. That might be found. It makes sense and the sheer number of questions about the treasures. Whereabouts ensure that people will still continue to search for it for some time however we believe that the third theory is the most valid the confederate. Treasury was already paltry when Jefferson Davis fled. Richmond it seems most likely that he spent what he needed to. Just keep the confederate government alive. And what was left was squandered by James Simple. It's not the most exciting conclusion but then again it's better than scouring the bottom of a leg for treasure that simply isn't there. Thanks again for tuning into gone. We'll be back in two weeks with another episode. You can find more episodes of gone as well as all of parkhouse other podcasts on Apple podcasts spotify stitcher. Google play or your favorite podcast directory. Several of you have asked to help us if you enjoy the show. The best way to help us is to leave a five star review and don't forget to follow us on facebook and instagram. At podcast and twitter at podcast network will see you. Next time gone was created by Max Cutler is a production of cutler media and is part of the podcast network it is produced by Maxon Ron Cutler sound design by Paul Liebskind with production assistance by Ron Shapiro. Paul Molitor Maggie Admire and Carly Madden Gone is written by Colin McLaughlin and Stars Molly Brandenburg and Richard Rosner.

Senator Jefferson Davis Richmond confederacy United States confederate treasury treasury confederate government Georgia confederate army America treasurer Richmond Bank Union Virginia Union Forces Michigan Lake Michigan Richmond Banks General Robert E Lee
69: Surrender at Appomattox: The Last Days of the Civil War

History That Doesn't Suck

00:00 sec | 4 months ago

69: Surrender at Appomattox: The Last Days of the Civil War

"History that doesn't suck as a biweekly podcast delivering legit seriously researched hard hitting survey of American history through entertaining stories. If you'd like to support HDD S or enjoy some perks like ad free early releases or patron exclusive mini episodes, please consider giving at patriotic dot com forward slash history that doesn't suck to keep up with HDD s news follow us on facebook twitter or instagram. Palm Sunday April ninth eighteen, sixty five. General Ulysses s grant and a few officers right along a dirt road in the quaint hamlet of APPA maddox courthouse. But the aren't headed to the town's namesake building. No they're writing to its other impressive structure. The McLean house. Wilmer McLean. Bought the charming three story tall red brick home with white trim windows in an expansive porch a few years back after his previous residents became the battlefield for first bull run slash Manassas. Poor guy wanted to avoid the fighting how ironic? If all goes well, today is parlor is where the war will effectively end. This Party of union leaders? Make it to Mcclain's home at one thirty PM. Tyne off his horse ulysses sends the wide wooden stairs leading to the front door alone. Stepping inside he enters the parlor immediately on his left different council recall various details on the furniture. But the seventeen by nineteen foot room has at least a black fireplace adorned with white vases. Pattern carpeting a turtle top marble table, a small wooden oval table a couch in a number of chairs. It's here that you listeners greeted by three men, US lieutenant, Colonel Orville, Babcock confederate colonel, Charles Marshall, and of course, the man with whom you list hopes to start the peace process confederate general Robert e Lee. The to commanders could not contrast more starkly at fifty eight years old. The white-bearded blueblooded confederate is dressed in an impeccable gray uniform with a silk sashes dress sword. He stands tall and elegant. Meanwhile, the forty two year old dark bearded US commander whereas dirty union, blue uniform and mud-caked boots. No Sword. Only his shoulder straps indicate his rank of. Lieutenant General. Both men apologize to the other the one for having nothing suitable apart from this new uniform the other for wearing such quote unquote. Rough Garb. Other union leaders enter. You listen introduces them and tries to make small talk. I met you once before generally while we were serving in Mexico when you came over, from general, Scott's headquarters to visit Garland's Brigade. To the Ohio surprise bobby clings to remember him as well. Meanwhile Bobby Lee expresses his thanks to Lawrence Williams. The Federal General sent him a message this morning informing him that his confederate son Cuss Disley was not killed in battle a few days ago as reported. But good has that news is bobby has no interest in dragging this out. He sick at the thought of what must be done and would rather dispense with the pleasantries. I suppose general grants that the object of present meeting is fully understood. I asked to see you to ascertain upon what terms you would receive the surrender of my Miami. The US army general and chief understands. He'll later no in his memoirs, the empathy feels. He's feeling for bobby Lee in this moment. I. Felt like anything rather than rejoicing at the downfall of a folk who had fought so long and valiantly, and it suffered so much for 'cause though that cause was I believe one of the worst for which people ever fought. Well, dressed in spoken as the vanquished Virginian is ulysses can still see the pain hiding behind the white beard and Brown eyes I mean merely that your army should lay down their arms and not take them up again during the continuance of the war unless duly improperly exchanged. euless answers. Those are about the conditions which I expected would be proposed the confederate response nodding approvingly. Ulysses starts to wax eloquent on piece the end of this fight a cessation to the needless loss of life. Once more though bobby points to the task at hand. I presume general grant we have both carefully considered the proper steps to be taken and I would suggest that you commit to writing the terms you have promised so they may be formerly acted upon. Very well. I will write them out. Illicit aide De. camp. Colonel. Ely Parker brings a cigar chewing commander the small oval. Table. Ulis choose away as he writes up the terms. Wants done. He hands it to bobby. Putting on his spectacles, the older virginian can hardly believe what he's reading. General grant is offering him and his entire army protection for being prosecuted for treason. His officers can even keep their arms and horses. The generosity is astounding. These are not the terms of a conqueror. He's the terms of one who wishes to heal a nation. This will have a very happy effect. Bobby replies as he reads. After making some small edits to the original drafts language Ellie Parker puts his gifted penmanship to task and writes up the formal surrender. It's concluded. Though the formal ceremony will take place three days from now Bobby Lee has surrendered the confederate army of Northern Virginia. He makes the obligatory rounds greeting each of ulysses officers. A pauses as he comes to Colonel Ely Parker. You know the man who just pinned the terms of surrender. Bobby looks mortified as he takes in the well built man's black hair and dark complexion. Is easily black. No. He's a Senate can in fact, he's a grand stadium of Iroquois League. Bobby seems to relax as he realizes. Is Indigenous. I am really glad to see one real American. Bobby finally says they shake hands. Healy's response could not be more profound. Speaking as an indigenous American at the end of a war with still unknown ramifications on American identity. The answers gray clad general. We are all Americans. Welcome to history that doesn't suck I'm your Professor Jacks and I to tell you the story. Today we end the civil. We've heard so many stories, I met so many people. But now we'll hear how to generals on a battlefield in Virginia bringing this brutal bloody war to a close. To Start I'll tell you about the final battle Petersburg and the fall of Richmond. From there will follow Bobby Lee a desperate dash across Virginia to save his army and the confederacy. You'll learn about some of the final battles of the civil war in the lead up to the surrender had apple matic's once that's done. I'll talk about a few big picture takeaways from the war. You know the broad themes you'll want to know before we move onto the next phase of American history. So go back in time a month with me to march eighteen, sixty five. Let's see how Robert e Lee goes from defending Richmond to surrendering t lucy's s grant in the village of asthmatics courthouse. Here we go. rewind. It's march, twentieth eighteen sixty five lieutenant general ulysses s grant sits at his headquarters in city point Virginia just outside the Petersburg battle lines. You, listen his wife Julia have heard how tired and rundown President Lincoln looks these days. So the grants have decided to invite Lincoln to visit see the troops and take a rest. euless rights to his boss. Can you not visit city point for a day or two? I would like very much to see you and I think the rest would do you good. When the president gets the invitation. He immediately agrees the idea of getting out of DC for a few days. Sound so good in fact that first lady Mary Lincoln and their son Tad decide to come along. Yeah. You know you're getting desperate for a day off when a vacation near the front lines of the civil war sounds better than a day in the office. On March Twenty Third Lincoln hop on the Steamer River Queen and head south to meet up with you Liz. The. President has a great time on the short journey. Feel. So good to be out from under the weight of office seekers, meetings, telegrams, and Battlefront News. Mary describes that Lincoln quote. Freely, gave vent to his cheerfulness. He was almost boyish in has mirth and reminded me of his original nature. Close quote. The River Queen arrives at city point on the James River, the next evening and Lincoln's feeling better than he has in years. The president and the lieutenant general have a quick meeting. Ulysses Assures Lincoln that the war will be over soon that confederate general Robert Leah's running out of men and supplies with which to defend Petersburg. Can goes to bed unaware of just how true ulysses words were Here's the thing. Ten Miles west of city point in Petersburg Virginia. Bobby Lee is as stressed as Lincoln is relaxed. He doesn't have enough soldiers to defend the ramp hearts or man the guns on the Petersburg lines, and he doesn't have enough food or Ammo to supply the troops. He has this frustrates the hell out of the newly appointed General in Chief of the confederate army's. He writes the secretary of war and bags for food for his men. He also writes. I can no longer sustain even our small force of cavalry around. Richmond. That's right. There's nothing for the horses to eat either. Bobby lease in a tough spot. But he's gotten idea. The white-bearded Virginia plans to abandon Petersburg fight his way through union lines, March southwest West, and Hook up with General Joseph Johnston in North Carolina. Plan will mean giving up the capital city of Richmond, but it will save the army of northern. Virginia and breathe hope into the dying confederacy. Within hours of Lincoln's arrival at City Point Bobby Lee puts his plan into action. In. The Predawn Light March twenty fifth confederate soldiers make their move against a small log cabin and east portion of Petersburg lines. Notice Fort Stegman A few confederate soldiers acting like deserters come up on the union pickets at the four it started conversation. Once the blue clad guards fully relaxed the rebel deserters show their true colors and signal for their comrades till launch an attack. The battle harding grey clad men soon overrun surprised union soldiers at the Fort. But the reds are overwhelmed by Yankees and can't hold onto fourth standards along. By lunchtime federal troops have retaken the Fort. Captured confederate breast works. Union armies inflict five thousand casualties including taking about two thousand prisoners of war. Bobby Lee has lost man. Lost Part of his defensive works lost the element of surprise. That afternoon Lincoln still goes on his schedule tour union lines and troops. The presidential entourage can't miss the aftermath of the battle for its deadman. The sites sober Lincoln's mood. When he sees lines of confederate POW's. One Observer reports quote. Lincoln's whole face showed sympathetic feeling for the suffering about him. Close, quote. But the tour continues and the rail splitters presence. Cheers Up Union soldiers holding the lines at Petersburg. That evening, Ulysses Lincoln and several other generals and officers sit around A. Campfire. They're easy. Conversation turns serious toward the end of the night. EULESS. Turns. His Blue Eyes on Lincoln and asks. Mr. President. Did you anytime doubt the final success of the 'cause. Lincoln. Doesn't hesitate. Never four moment. The president's visit to city point strengthens his relationship with. Ulysses. A. Few days. Later, the two men are joined by another general who has been fighting to save the Union? General. William. tecumseh Sherman better known to his friends as COMP. Ulysses best friend COMP had already been planning to come to city point before Lincoln showed up. It's just good timing and better luck that the president happens to be here to when cup arrives on the night of March twenty seventh. The next morning some of the highest authorities in the Union War Effort Abraham Lincoln Ulysses Grant William Tecumseh Sherman US Navy Admiral David Porter all meet to discuss how to bring the four year long war to an end. The military men and their commander in chief want to know what terms of surrender they should offer to the confederate armies when the time comes. Lincoln emphasizes generosity and. Leniency. All I want of you is to defeat the opposing armies and to get them in composing the confederate armies back to their homes at work on their farms and in their shops. Let them have their horses to plow with and if you like their guns sucrose with, we want those people to return their allegiance to the Union. Damn those are generous terms. So come ask a clarifying question. What about confederate President Jefferson Davis. Should. He Be Tried for treason? Of course, Lincoln goes back to his country lawyer roots in answers with the story. He tells of a man who has vowed to give up alcohol. When he goes to a friend's house is? Host offers. Eliminate. The host then says lemonade would go down easier if he pours a bit of Brandy in it. Lincoln relates the man's reply. If, you can do so unbeknownst to me I would not object. Cup laughs and nods in understanding if Jeff Davis can escape the country and avoid treason trial unbeknown to Lincoln. That would be just fine with the president. Cup leaves the meeting impressed with Lincoln? The red bearded general later recalls. Of all the men I ever met Lincoln seemed to possess more of the elements of greatness combined with goodness than any other. Diet evening the party breaks up. COMP returns to north. Carolina. EULESS has a few miles west to the battlefront near Petersburg. Lincoln stays in city point eager for these men to bring the war to a close and he list wastes no time making that happen. On March twenty ninth, the Union commander takes a short train ride west from city point to gravelly run the new headquarters of the Union Front. He writes out orders for his short in stature but Fearless Cavalry Commander Phil Sheridan. You might remember from episode sixty, four that Phil has been rocking on the battlefield, cutting off confederate supply lines and subduing his rebel counterparts. Ulysses orders seemed to ignore that they outlined and his men should try to hit Bobby Lee's right flank. But if that's a bust, the cavalry should ride down to North Carolina to help to comes to Sherman in his army. What. So when Phil Reads Ulysses Orders Kinda pissed. But the blue eyed lieutenant general gets it. He pulls villa side and gives him the whole picture. EULESS had to put a contingency plan in writing but he tells Phil that he fully intends to end the war right here. The Calorie won't have any need go to North Carolina. Phil brightens up and replies. I'm glad to hear it and we can do it. The moustachioed cavalryman goes on to say that as the war ends, he wants quote to be in at the death. Close quote. Fill positions his men near the crucial crossroads called five forks to cut off Bobby Lee's best escape route. Since the debacle at Fort Stadmann, Bobby, Lee has stretched out his Petersburg Line. So thin the raid snap. Even. So He sends eleven thousand men under the command of General George Pickett to quote. Hold five forks, all hazards. Close quote. Bobby Lee also sends a message to President Jeff Davis up in Richmond, that this move seriously diminishes our ability to maintain our present line. The next seventy, two hours will be crucial. On. Thursday march thirty. It starts raining. The rain pours down in sheets, fills, trenches, and soaks gunpowder. But that does not deter Phil Sheridan from launching an attack on General George Pickett's lines at five forks. On Friday the thirty first, the desperate confederate soldiers fight against fills union troops with it's nasty deputy, their low numbers, even lower rations. But how long can they hold out? Up in Richmond Jeff Davis makes a move that shows just how worried he is. He gets his wife Berina and therefore looking children out of town. On Saturday April. First Union soldiers fight on. Now, Phil once told Ulysses I have never in my life taken a command into battle and had not the slightest desire to come out alive unless I one. Damn to wonder euless gave this assignment to fill. After two days of hard fighting at five forks, union numbers and Phil. Sheridan's iron will finally break the confederate lines. Ulysses. Doesn't pause for a second. He knows that this victory has opened his chance to break the lines at Petersburg Bobby Lee has lost about twenty percent of his army to death wounding or caption last week. So the Union Lieutenant General Orders Don attack of the Petersburg breast works. At four forty, five on Sunday April Second Union guns opened fire on the rebel lines. The army of the Potomac has been fighting here for months. This is their chance to finally overrun the seemingly impenetrable confederate lines and seize Petersburg. Hundred Twenty five thousand Blue Clad Yankees fight with everything they've got. The breakthrough the outer lines and several places taking thousands of confederate soldiers prisoner. Bobby Lee with only about thirty three, thousand men realizes he can't hold Petersburg or richmond any longer. A white haired Virginia orders a full retreat. Ground Tinian. Sends a message to his bosses in the capital. I see no prospect of doing more Dan Holding our position here till nine. I am not certain that I can do. If I can. Show withdraw tonight north of Apple Matic's. Word of the disaster. Petersburg Soon Rookies Jeff Davis twenty miles north and Richmond. History that doesn't sock is sponsored by Bombo. Baba's makes the most comfortable socks in history of feet they've literally re-thought. Socks, we wear to make them away more comfortable. I wear them every day and I love how they never slide off my heel or bunch up on my toes doesn't matter if I'm in the classroom or going for a run, they keep me comfortable all day long. But the socks do more than keep my feet cozy. They help give back to the most vulnerable members of our community because for every pair of socks purchase Baba's donates a pair to someone in need. The generosity of Bomba's customers has allowed them to donate over thirty four million pairs of socks and county through their nationwide network of three thousand plus giving partners. To Bomb Dot Com Slash H. T. D. S. Today and get twenty percents off your first purchase. That's B. O. M. B. A. S. dot com slash HDD s for twenty percent off. Bombay DOT COM SLASH HDD S. And now back to the story. Eleven o'clock on Sunday. April Second Jeff Davis sits in his family Pew at Saint Paul's Episcopal Church. Torrential rains that it's soaked. The soldiers at five forks have finally cleared. Sunshine pours through the detailed stained glass windows lining the walls of the Church Jeff quietly listen to the sermon. than a messenger walks up the aisle carrying a single envelope and stops at the confederate presence Pew. Pastor continues, his Sermons Jeff Opens the envelope and reads the message inside. That telegram from Bobby received just twenty minutes ago at the war department. Jeff bobbies message. The last line makes him catch his breath. I advise at all preparation be made for leading Richmond. Tonight. I will advise you later according to circumstances. Are, key Lee. Jeff says nothing. He quickly stands walks down the aisle and exits the church. Several officers and cabinet members guests something big is just going down they follow jeff out the building. Within. A FEW MINUTES JEFF has his entire cabinet gathered in a meeting. While he expected the state of calm just not as ready as you might think. Yeah, he sent his family away a few days ago and many offices have been packing valuable documents. But on the Sunday morning, Jeff, his cabinet scrambled to abandon their headquarters and capital city at Richmond. The president sends a message to Bobby Lee which reads. To move tonight will involve the loss of many valuables both for the want of time to pack and of Transportation Arrangements are progressing in unless you otherwise advise the start will be made. But the real thing confederate president has no choice in the matter. Tells his subordinates to pack as many valuables as possible and burn the rest. Richmond residents get the hint when they see stacks of burning papers outside government offices. The streets become jammed with wagons full of furniture valuables in assessing. The train depot flows with people desperate to leave the city and every available train cars jam packed with panicked travellers. Jeff himself works until after dark. He finally leaves the call and stuccoed confederate White House at seven. PM being sure to leave his desk me in early. He boards a special eight car train along with members of his cabinet and their staff. The train pulls out of Richmond around Eleven PM bound for Danville Virginia where the say government officials hope to set up a new capital those who can't afford to leave or have nowhere else go locked themselves in their houses and listen to the city burn. The last remaining. CS. Military men have orders to set fire not only to records and papers, but to warehouses full of tobacco and cotton munitions and liquor stores. The Fire Burns all night strain blocks of civilian properties well. Lueders possibly the same hungry citizens who participated in the Richmond bread riots. You heard about an episode fifty eight break into abandoned stores and steal any necessities left on the shelves. Near. Dawn the last retreating rebel troops set fire to an ordinance depot. Exploding shells break windows and feed the fires destroying Richmond. Diarist Mary Chestnut laments quote. Everything is lost in Richmond even our archives. Blue Black is our horizon. Flows quote. The next Morning Union troops under the command of general. Godfrey white sold move into Richmond their first order of business douse the flames still threatening the city. From there they can restore order and safety instead of baseball operations. And you can bet that more than one white Richmond resident takes notice of who has just put out the flames occupied their hometown. The All Black Twenty Fifth Union core. The firefighting impeach restoring efforts take awhile. So it's not until late morning on Monday April third that President Lincoln and General Ulysses Grant here about the occupation of Richmond. Lincoln's at city point with Admiral David Porter when he gets a telegram with the news. The president's lying face creases into a broad smile and he says David thank God that I have lived to see this. It seems to me that I have been dreaming Horrid Dream for four years and now. The nightmare is gone. News of Richmond's occupation by Union forces also reaches Washington, DC the reaction. There is a little less reverent and subdued than Lincoln's just before noon. The Telegraph operator at the war department gets a message that reads quote. Here's the first message for you in four years from Richmond. Close quote. The shocked operator jumps out of his chair runs to the open window shouts to passersby Richmond has fallen. The news which clearly indicates that this gruesome stressful war is coming to a close spread like wildfire throughout Washington. City. War Secretary Edwin Stanton gives an impromptu speech to a crowd of well-wishers. With the breaking voice in tears in his eyes, Edwin expresses. Thanks. To the president. To the army and navy. To. The great commanders of sea and land. The gallant it officers amid who have perild their lives upon the battlefield and drenched the soil with their blood. Closed. Quote. Dan. Virginia Lincoln doesn't wait long to visit. Richmond. Let me give just a bit of geography. City point sits at the confluence of James and Apple Matic's rivers. Has Easy access to Petersburg on the FM addicts in Richmond on the James So on April. Fourth. Lincoln gets on a small ship with David, porter in just ten sailors. The party sales north up the winding James River to Richmond. Be. Brave torpedoes and debris in the water but make it safely to the burned over city. When Lincoln arrives, he walks the city streets observing shards of glass and charred remains of confederate records. Of course, the ungainly rail thin president gets noticed by. Richmond residents right away. Now that Richmond has been occupied by union forces the emancipating proclamation applies here. Newly freed black men and women surround. Lincoln shout praised him. It's some even meal at his feet. Lincoln humbled by this and says to the crowd. Don't kneel to me. That is not right. You must kneel to God only and thank him for the liberty. You'll hear an after joy. I am but God's humble instrument. Wing continues his tour of the city. He goes to the confederate white. House. Now a base for General Weizman. We can even take a minute to sit in Jeff Davis is so recently vacated office. In the late afternoon, the US President returns to city point. When Richmond reporter Morris Chester witnessed Lincoln's walk around town his exchange with jubilant freed slaves. Morris writes all of this up in his report for the Philadelphia Press. Quote retirement has never before presented such a spectacle of jubilee what a wonderful change has come over the spirits of southern dreams. Close quote. Why does more tone sound so different from chestnuts. Morris is black. While Lincoln hangs out at city point for few more days. Let's ride West with list grant and the bulk of the army of the Potomac. On April fourth euless gives himself a new mission. Prevent Bobby from getting to North Carolina in hooking up with Joe. Johnston. The blue eyed general rides west from Petersburg to make this happen. Bobby Lee's army of northern. Virginia has been reduced about thirty, five, thousand mental. That's everyone who is manning the lines at Petersburg were on guard duty in Richmond. They don't have enough food. Their animals are worn out. But, these battle hardened toughest nails gray and butternut clad soldiers are determined to get to. North. Carolina. And Bobby has their backs. He has requested at a train full of rations meet his army at Amelia courthouse a small town about forty miles west of Richmond. From here, the confederate army has two good options for joining up with Joe Johnston. One can travel South West Danville checking with Jeff Davis at his new headquarters then move into North Carolina. To they can travel due west to Lynchburg in the Blue Ridge foothills and traveled due south to Danville say hi to Jeff Davis and move into north. Carolina. Second option is longer but still workable. You listen his right hand man Phil. Sheridan. Want to stop me from choosing either option. But it's not the Union army that will put the first roadblock in the rebel armies path. Bobby Lee gets to Amelia Court House he discovers there's been a mix up the war department sent ammo not food to starving men. The Virginia General is pissed can't afford this delay, but he has no choice except to allow his men to forage for Food for few days. The Union Cavalry Under Phil Sheridan take full advantage of this rebel setback. On April, fifth fill in his crew get ahead of the army of Northern Virginia and block the Danville Road. That would be escape option one for Bobby. Lee. Fearless Cavalry Commander Sends Word to Lis-. I wish you were here yourself I feel confident of capturing the army of northern. VIRGINIA IF WE EXERT OURSELVES You list doesn't need more of an invitation than that. He and a dozen or so of his staff hop on horses and ride through the night join Phil. Sure Ulysses is traveling ahead of his headquarters wagons with most of his gear in fresh clothes, but there's an army to capture in a war to win. Bobby, Lee switches the option to. Overnight. He's men begin marching west hoping to get to Lynchburg. But Phil won't let that happen. You Advanced Guards of the Union army travel parallel to the confederates and on the afternoon of April sixth the catch an isolated core of rebel soldiers near Small River called sailor's creek. Fill orders his three corps to attack the rebel supply, wagon, train and soldiers. Within hours, federal troops have taken six thousand. POW's including the confederate general with a spotted record from the battle of Gettysburg, geic you'll. When Bobby Lee hears about this route he exclaims. My God has the army been dissolved. Of course, the indomitable general from Virginia would never let that happen. May? have. Lost nearly a quarter of his men at sailor's creek but he urges the rest of his to keep moving towards. Lynchburg. Yet you list concede that the end is near. On April seventh the cigar smoking general still traveling without fresh clothes or a comfortable tent sends a note to Bobby Lee it reads. The results of the last week must convince you of the hopelessness a future resistance. I feel that it is my duty shift from myself the responsibility of any further fusion of blood by asking you to surrender the army of Northern Virginia. Very respectfully us? Grant. Leeson's a message back and asks what terms the Union General might offer. You get this message in the middle of the night. So he replies early on April. Eighth. Note does not sound like the unconditional surrender grant Vicksburg or Fort Donelson. Piece being my great desire. There's but one condition I would insist upon namely that the men and officers surrendered, she'll be disqualified for taking up arms again against the government of the United, states? When Bobby Lee reads this note he bristles. He's not ready to surrender in only wanted to hear general grant idea on terms. This note sounds like ulysses ready to write up a capitulation agreement right now. which he is. Bobby writes back. To be frank I, do not think the emergency has arisen to call for the surrender of the army. He suggests that the two generals me to discuss peace terms. A political negotiation that you listened knows he has no authority to conduct. This exchanges painstakingly slow since every note has to be delivered by Messenger under a flag of truce. While the gray and blue clad general's communicate via letter, the Army of Northern Virginia keeps moving west. See Bobby. Lee has rations. Yes. Actual food waiting at APPA matic's a rail depot town a few miles east of the safety. LYNCHBURG The Phil Sheridan's cavalry race to cut the rebels off. Approximately seventy five thousand federal soldiers get to APPA Matic's I sees the train depot in railcars, full supplies, and then position themselves on the rail lines. Bobby Lee had hoped to use as an escape route. The army of Northern Virginia only about ten thousand strong due to death capture and desertion is trapped badly outnumbered and has no rations. Nonetheless, they launch at. On? April Ninth Palm Sunday. A few hours of fighting only makes the situation worse as two. Union. Corps. Block at confederate advance while more Yankees threatened the rebel rear. Bobby. Finally admits defeat. The white-bearded general negotiates a temporary battlefield ceasefire, and since one note T- lessees. I therefore request an interview at such time and place as you may designate to discuss the terms of the surrender of this arm in accordance with your off. Ulysses. Accepts without. Question. Clad thoughtfully, and his dress uniform volubly prepares to surrender himself and his army. With a heavy heart, he tells the staff. There is nothing left for me to do. But go and see general grant. I would rather die thousand. That's. You heard about the meeting at Wilmer McLean's house between the commander of federal forces and the commander of all the confederate armies in this episode's opening. Let me jump down to the specifics of the agreement that these two military masterminds reached? I officers and enlisted men will be paroled and sent home. No one's going to jail. No one's facing a treason trial. Second any confederate soldier who owns his horse or mule can take it home with him. Third. All confederate army munitions and guns will be handed over but inning soldier who claims to own his gun can take it home with him and General Robert e Lee will keep his sword. Seems that you following Lincoln's second inaugural address. With malice toward none. He's terms of surrender are very generous. Unconditional surrender grant doesn't even include the words unconditional surrender. while. Ulysses. decamp Ellie Parker makes copies of the agreement Bobby Lee has to humble himself once more. He tells ulysses that his men are starving and had been living off parched corn for days. He badly needs quote both rations and forage close quote. In line with the generous nature of his surrender terms ulysses doesn't withhold food from the now parole rebel soldiers. You promises to deliver three days worth of rations for Bobby lease twenty five men. When you list asks if this will be enough, Bobby Lee replies. I think it will be ample and it will be a great relief. I assure you. As the meeting breaks up y'all Virginia. General keeps his face inscrutable. Bobby Lee has kept himself aloof and as he rides away from the House, the Union officers were staff members watching go without knowing his true feelings. You lists on the other hand looks disheartened. At a moment when many of his men are celebrating and clapping each other's backs in congratulations for a job completed the blue eyed general stays quiet and pensive. Ulysses proves the truth of the hero, the Napoleonic Wars Duke of Wellington's adage quote next to a battle loss. There's no spectacle more melancholy than a battle one. Close quote. When Lincoln by now back in Washington DC, here's the news of Bobby Lee surrender he does not hide his feelings like the southern commander nor does he feel a similar sadness to ulysses? No after leading a nation at war with itself for four years President Lincoln unleashes all of his joy at the conflicts close. Or Secretary Edwin Stanton burst into Lincoln's office and delivers the news. General Lee surrendered the Army of Northern Virginia this afternoon. Lincoln unabashedly hugs Edwin. Back it up matic's Bobby Lee returns to his man. He has to tell them that their fight is over. He has surrendered and now in front of these men that he's led for years, the Virginian lets down his guard. Soldiers lined. The road is Bobby Lee rides by and he says to them. Men. We have fought through this war together. I have done the best that I could for you. At this bobbies, voice breaks and the tears start flowing. One soldier. Let's the news of surrender seen. Gin then calls out I love you just as well as ever generally. In the federal camps, soldiers go crazy when they hear the news of Bobby Lee's surrender. No more marching, fighting, camping poor marching. They're going home the blue clad men start firing cannons and Raucous celebrations. But. Their commander you lis- keeps his eye on the solemnity of the occasion. He tells us to keep it together. The war is over the rebels are countrymen again, and the best sign of rejoicing the victory will be to abstain from all demonstrations. To their credit most soldiers follow this order. And three days. Later, they show a hell of a lot of respect for the capitulating confederates. On April Twelfth Army of the Potomac colds, a formal surrender ceremony for the army of Northern Virginia. You. List. Doesn't attend you signs Major General Joshua Chamberlain the hero of little round top at the battle of Gettysburg to receive the surrender. As confederate soldiers stack their guns in hand over their battle flags many of them are tears. Joshua orders his men to treat their countrymen and former foes with respect. Josh describes the scene when confederate General John Gordon, who took over stonewall Jackson's command in his core approach. Quote. Instructions had been given and when the head of each division column comes opposite our group, our bugle sounds the signal and instantly our whole line from right to left regiment by regiment in succession gives the soldier salutation. From the order arms to the old. The marching salute. Borden at the head of the column riding with heavy spirit and downcast face catches the sound of shifting arms looks up and takes the meaning. We'll superbly with profound salutation as he drops the point of his sword to the Bhutto. Then facing to his own command gives word for his excessive brigades to pass us with the same position of the manual. Honor answering honor. Close. Quote. Imagine this. Hundreds of union soldiers stand at attention with their rifles standing at their sides. At the bugles call they all bring their guns up holding the button there. Right hand as the barrel rests against the right shoulder's. Confederate troops return the salute they march up to the collection piles in hand over their weapons to the Yankees. This display of mutual respect between these armies goes a long way toward healing the wounds of the war. A few days later on April eighteenth confederate, General Joe Johnston negotiate the surrender of his once formidable army of Tennessee to union. General William. tecumseh Sherman. The armies of the confederacy are now disbanded, and despite a few minor skirmishes, the civil war is effectively over. But the rising hope of unity reconciliation and a smooth transition to reunion sparked by the generous terms at half matic's in the respectful surrender ceremony a few days later won't last. Maybe that's why we like to remember these events. Speak to what so many wanted and what might have been However before we follow the United States into its post-war phase, let's take a bird's eye view of the conflict answer few lingering questions and talk about some of the fallout from America's civil war. The start with the most tangible aspect of the war, the death toll. I've said it before, but it's worth repeating casualty numbers in the civil war are hard to pin down. You've probably heard estimates ranging from six hundred, twenty, thousand total deaths up to eight, hundred, fifty thousand. That's a huge difference. Let me give as many accurate numbers as I can. Going into the war, the confederacy had a smaller population than the union. Nine million three point five of which were enslaved compared to twenty, two, million, white, and black. The seceded south field over one million man while the Yankees put over two million soldiers in the battle. Of those over three million men and covertly some women at least six, hundred, twenty, thousand died. That's according to James? McPherson. The God of civil war historians. He says three hundred, sixty thousand federals at least two, hundred, sixty, thousand confederates died. Historian Ron Chernow's writing a little more recently puts that figure at seven, hundred, fifty, thousand. If we use McPherson six hundred, twenty thousand. That means at least two point five percent of the entire American population died in the conflict. Let's zoom in a bit. The south smaller population into smaller death toll but not in percentages. Historians estimate that nearly twenty percent of the white male population in the south died during the war. One fifth. That's approaching the death rate. France will suffer during World War One. Will later call those poor souls the lost generation. If these numbers, still don't account for civilian deaths from battles, starvation or disease. Can't give you an accurate count on that front. We also need to address the property damage done to farms, railways, and factories mostly in the south. Some historians claim that many parts of the south will not recover economically from the civil war by the time the Great Depression Hits in Nineteen twenty nine. To quote willing to come Sherman from speech she will give fifteen years after the war. There is many a boy who looks on war as all glory. But boys it is all hell. Now that we've looked at the numbers, let's ask those seemingly answerable questions. Why did the South Lose? And why did the North Win I. Let's look at the south. Many people want to blurt out some basic fact and hope that these will answer the question. You've probably heard people argue that the confederacy had a lot working against it like being outnumbered having less depth of military leadership having controversial President Jefferson Davis at the helm having significant internal strife or not having enough international support. In yes. All of these factors did contribute to the confederacies ultimate demise, but you can make the same arguments about the north. Internal strife, New, York, draft riots, and peace. Democrats lack of military leadership George be little Mac McClellan. Need I say more? Controversial president. Abraham Lincoln, whose own party members tried to oust him in eighteen, sixty four. International support. Only in theory. So. What did cause the demise of the confederacy? Well Civil War historian Gary Gallagher. Has An answer. He. Argues quote the key factor in bringing rebel defeat and this is easy to overlook if you don't deal with military history is the United States armies proved they could go anywhere and do anything they wanted. Wants the confederate civilian population figured that out what alternative to surrender remained Close quote. This argument also helps us understand how the north one. Like I said the twenty two states in the union faced many of the same struggles and setbacks as the confederacy except the population, of course. Some historians argue that the north one because at a few key points, the tide of war swung its way. The first came at the Battle of Antietam, a union victory that made great. Britain think twice about helping the confederacy. The second is the emancipation proclamation which expanded the scope purpose of the war for the north. The third happened at simultaneous union victories of Vicksburg. Gettysburg which gave many northerners boost morale. In the final is the union capture of Atlanta, which enabled Lincoln to win reelection in eighteen, sixty four. These key turning points gave the union. The will twin. With that Yankee armies could go anywhere and do anything as Gallagher said. It's not that the confederacy lost the will to fight and win. They had plenty of that almost be end. It's that the union had momentum on its side at crucial times. If any of these turning points had gone another way you and I might be having a very different conversation today. We may never get a definitive answer on why south lost or how the north. One But I hope these arguments give you somewhere to start as you explore those questions yourself. Now, that I've discussed reasons for the war's outcome, let's spend a minute. A few of its repercussions. Veterans North and south face serious struggles especially, the petit's they had to rely on federal and state pensions, family help and generous friends to make their way in the world. For men whose job was to financially support a family perform quote unquote Manley Labor and be self sufficient their disabling wounds caused daily psychological pain and social. OSTRACISM. This was especially true in the south, and here they didn't even have the bomb a victory to take the sting out of their wounds. Souther Masculinity, even more than in the north hinged on an able bodied man taking care of his wife and children, and if a slave holder controlling his slaves and land. Men who didn't own slaves could still control their domain through sheer physical will but amputees didn't fit this mold anymore. It would take years for southern society to construct a social place for its main veterans but by then many disappeared to the fringes of society. Some veterans. Came home to a hero's welcome. The aftermath of war led to expanded career options especially political careers. Best Example's probably ulysses s grant who had become president of the United States in eighteen, sixty eight. Before. More civil war vets would go on to become president. Rutherford B Hayes James Garfield Benjamin. Harrison and William McKinley. Countless congressmen, governors, mayors, and state reps used their war service to boost their careers. One examples general Joshua Chamberlain he went into the war as a college professor climbed the military ladder through his exploits at Gettysburg and other battles. Then when home to Maine become a four term governor. Besides the effects on a personal level, the war led to an expansion federal government powers. Federal taxes the draft and national banking system and a federal welfare program. The Friedman's bureau became woven into the fabric of the federal government. The were also effectively took the option of secession off the table. Lastly, and this cannot be overstated. The largest repercussion of the war was the end of slavery. As I said an episode sixty eight, there would still be a fight over citizenship voting rights, property rights, and social equality for black Americans, and we'll cover that. But for now in April. Eighteen sixty five slavery no longer has constitutional protection and as a seeded states come back into the union, they'll outlawed as well. Across the civil war, approximately four million slaves gained their freedom, the last slaves to be freed live in Texas. On June nineteenth eighteen sixty five slaves in the lone star state here about the war's end and their emancipation. The Modern Day of remembrance June eighteenth will honor and celebrate this event. And so the confederacy ends. The deeply shaken. Republic of the United, States survives albeit with a long road ahead. The Nation needs to rebuild itself and its society. In a word, it's entered in over a decade long phase known as reconstruction. But. Before America can even catch it's black. The still burning embers of civil war have one last high profile life claim. And this time, the shot won't be fired on a battlefield. He'll be fired. In a theater. Doesn't is created and hosted by. Greg Jackson researching and writing by Jackson C L Salazar production by air. Sound design by Derek Barents Theme Music composed by Greg Jackson arrangement and additional composition by Lindsey Graham of airship for Bibliography of all primary and secondary sources consulted writing this episode, this HDD s podcast dot com. HDD is supported by fans at Patriotair Dot com forward slash history that doesn't suck. Yellen, dire beyond grateful to kind souls providing funding to help us steep go thank you. And a special thanks to our patrons. These monthly gift puts them accuser status we'll call. Jason Karston John Frugal do. Michael and Rachel. Bob, DRACEVIC fief down real. Andrew Fortune. Rice and cotton rat permit DAX Jones. and John Leech Jeffrey News andbranch shot. Joining two weeks. where I'd like to tell you a story.

Bobby Lee President Lincoln Robert e Lee General Ulysses president Richmond Ulysses Grant Virginia President Jeff Davis US Union confederate army Phil Sheridan Petersburg North Carolina EULESS General William. tecumseh Sher confederacy
57th Georgia Regiment Pt. 2: March to Battle

Survival

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

57th Georgia Regiment Pt. 2: March to Battle

"In March eighteen sixty three Christiana Vinson received a letter from her brother in Law William two months earlier the fifty seventh Georgia regiments company commander had sent her terse this note informing her that her husband's right had died of smallpox she had hoped William could give her some explanation or at least an assurance that writes last days had been comfortable but William didn't know any more than she she did. He wrote Chris. I can't tell you how he was treated. After he was into the hospital I done all that I could to get to go. Wait on him but they would not let me Chris. It hurt me very bad to think that he had to live air and die without any of us with him Chris. You wanted me to fetch him home. When I come if I could if I can I will be sure to do it for I don't want any of my folks to be left in Mississippi? I oh I do hate it worse than any place I have ever been at yet but I am in hope that he is in a better world than this where there is no more war nor troubles. I want you to kiss Charlie for me. Tell him to be a good boy till I come. I'm home and I will bring him a present nothing more only this remains. You're loving brother until death W._d.. Vinson Right Vinson's body would never be brought home to Georgia. He was among the thousands of men abandoned in unmarked graves across the confederate south falling off the historical record with an absent or presumed dead marked on the company roster but his brother William didn't get to disappear just yet he he had to survive until the war was lost. Welcome to survival a podcast original. I'm IRMA BLANCO and I'm Tim Johnson every Monday. We'll take you inside incredible true stories of life or death situations. This is our second episode on the Fifty Seven Th Georgia Infantry Regiment last week we follow the Grueling First Year of the regiment's service through the eyes of the two Vincent Brothers this week will follow William Vinson his comrades the Braswell brothers and other members of the regiment as they made increasingly desperate attempts to survive the civil war at podcast. We're grateful for you our listeners you allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing reach out on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at Park as network and if you enjoy enjoy today's episode the best way to help us is to leave a five star review wherever you're listening it really does help we also now have merchandise so depar- cast dot com slash merch for more information in May of eighteen sixty two roughly thousand men reported for duty in the confederate army's fifty seven th Georgia infantry regiments for the next year they marched in endless circles around the south narrowly avoiding every major battle of the civil war along the way they lost hundreds of soldiers to disease exhaustion and desertion among them was twenty-three-year-old private right Vinson who died of smallpox in January eighteen eighteen sixty three without having fired a single shot in battle his twenty five year old brother Corporal William Vincent didn't even have time to collect his body from the hospital before the troops were ordered to March out to Vicksburg Mississippi Mississippi marching with them with sixteen year old private Robert Braswell the youngest son of an old plantation family from Fort Valley. Just a few miles south of the Vincent's farm his older brothers billion Samuel. You were in Mobile Alabama with the first confederate infantry and Robert needed a good battle story to tell when he saw them again. Luckily after year of endless marching the fifty seventh Georgia was finally about to see some combat on May fourteenth eighteen sixty three the union captured Jackson Mississippi and continued east towards Vicksburg nearby confederate troops were stationed at champion Champion hill halfway between the two cities to stop the unions advance during the moonlight hours of May fifteenth the Thirty Fourth Thirty Six and thirty ninth Georgia infantry regiments made their way up the slope slope of Champion Hill the fifty sixth and fifty seventh however were instructed to stay with the artillery at the base of the hill at an intersection known as the crossroads because of the relatively short range and inaccuracy of nineteenth nineteenth century weaponry soldiers were typically positioned in long straight rose intended to meet the enemy head on however if the opposing troops were able to approach from the side they could easily surround the end of the line and inflict flicked serious damage before the rose could reorient themselves. Thus strategic manuals dictated that the flank of each line should be protected either by fortification a natural barricade or another regiment of soldiers in in this case the all important artillery at the crossroads would be guarded by the fifty sixth and fifty seventh Georgia but there were no other troops left to guard them once they were in position the Georgians look to their left and right and saw nothing they were completely defenseless from every direction they were as the infantry called it cannon fodder General Ulysses s this grant arrived to personally command the Union offensive at ten o'clock the next morning luckily for the fifty seventh Georgia rather than advanced towards the crossroads the Yankees crept silently up the hill from the opposite side hidden among among the dense forest and lock their sights on the row of confederate troops lining the crest of the hill at eleven thirty a M. They suddenly suddenly opened fire. The southerners were caught completely off-guard. Not a single shot had given away the enemy's position in the forest. The confederates barely had time to fire off a single volley before the nine union regiments were storming their ranks battering them with bayonets and daggers due to poor planning and confusion on the part of their commanders. The confederate line at the top of Champion hill was bent at a right angle into sharp L. shape instead of the straight line that was preferred for volley fire tactics to make matters worse. There were giant gaps left where the fifty sixth and fifty seventh Georgia regiments should have been they were outnumbered unprepared repaired and at a severe tactical disadvantage their only option was to fall back one by one each regiment gave up the fight and fled down the hill down at the crossroads Robert Braswell saw a swarm of gray uniforms streaming down the slope. Just a few hundred yards away chased by a stampede of blue-suited Yankees. This was not the kind of glorious battle he'd imagined leading the charge which was the twenty eighth Iowa which was nicknamed the preacher's Regiment since almost all of its members were clergymen but these preachers were the fire and brimstone type shooting off bullets as they ran at the bottom of the hill the fifty seventh commander Colonel William Barclay Lou shouted instructions to fire his assistant officer. Thomas Dyson let down from his horse and waved his hat signaling for the men to get ready then he was struck by a bullet and fatally wounded braswell took cover behind a rail of the wooden fence within seconds the man next to him was shot through the thigh then the man next to him was cut down instantly. We killed and a bullet grazed the face of another soldier nearby blowing the tip of his nose clean off the fifty seventh. Georgia didn't have time to reload their rifles before the fighting priests had completely overrun them. The regiment did the only thing they knew how to do retreat. They made a dash for General John pemberton's headquarters six hundred yards south of the crossroads Pemberton was an accomplished general with decades of battle under his belt. But because of his abrasive personality and northern heritage few of his confederate officers trusted him he had spent the morning riding from camp to camp trying to convince a couple of unruly generals to obey his orders the Georgia the brigade running scared from the battlefield was the last thing he wanted to see when he looked out the window when the soldiers reached the house Pemberton stepped out to meet them he rallied them with an impassioned and speech the exact words have been lost to history but it struck either inspiration shame or fear into their hearts within minutes the rag tag young men of the fifty seventh Georgia Regiment had regrouped and but charging back into battle by the time they made it back to the crossroads they were finally flanked by the reinforcements Pemberton had been trying to pull together all morning but the fifty seventh was still in the center of the Fray Ray surging ahead through the middle of the union line. The spirit of battle rallied them forward by two thirty pm the confederates had pushed the enemy back up the hillside and retaken champion Hill but they they'd taken heavy losses in the process. The fifty seven Georgia had gone into the battle with only four hundred fifty men and left a trail of bodies behind them. It was their first taste of war and then the excitement they were stampeding eating right into the middle of a firestorm with no strategy and no regard for their own safety. The regimens color bear was shot down almost immediately after returning to battle another soldier grabbed the flag bag from his fallen comrades hands but soon he was cut down to the third soldier to pick up the colors was also almost instantly killed still the rest of the men kept pushing forward by late afternoon noon. They were within sight of General Grant's Union headquarters at the champion House. The Yankees were shocked that the men who turned their backs and ran just a few hours earlier. We're now putting up such a spirited fight but as they got closer to the champion House they were greeted by three more Brigades of Union soldiers with sixteen cannons pointed right at them. The union had seemingly unlimited reinforcements -dorsements the confederates were decimated. There were short on ammunition and even shorter on soldiers. There was no way they could outlast grant's forces as night fell general pemberton ordered a retreat the men staggered back over the hill picking up their wounded along the way when the fifty seventh Georgia made it to safety they called role to tally the damages twenty seven dead one hundred and four wounded sixteen sixteen taken prisoner fifty missing and presumed dead of the four hundred fifty men who'd gone into the battle only two hundred fifty three were left to fight the next morning General Joseph Johnston sent Pemberton attend a message. If you are invested in Vicksburg you must ultimately surrender under such circumstances instead of losing both troops and place we must if possible save the troops however Pemberton decided to disregard the order logic be damned he was determined hold firm and defend his post his troops assembled around the perimeter of Vicksburg dug into trenches and waited for the next attack attack the fifty seventh Georgia both because of the heavy losses they'd taken and because of their general lack of fighting skills was told to stay back and guard the southern front at halls ferry road where no attack was expected this prediction proved correct Vincent and Braswell hunker down and waited listening to the distant barrage of artillery through the thick forest to the north at first it was just a faraway echo by May twenty second second it had inched closer. The Yankees were assaulting the square fort just a mile to their left but after a four hour bombardment the noise suddenly stopped it had become clear here to general grant that getting through the confederate defenses in into Vicksburg wouldn't be quick or easy rather than risk more of his men's lives in another firefight he decided to cut off confederate supply lines and outlast ask them until they surrendered he ordered his troops to surround the city dig trenches and settle in for a long siege by the time night fell the fifty seventh Georgia was standing face to face face with four regiments of Union soldiers camped just a few hundred yards down the road over the next few weeks the Yankee trenches kept zigzagging closer while their artillery fired off shells around the clock. The term MM shell shock was coined during World War One to describe the symptoms caused by constant artillery explosions the physical and emotional stress of being exposed to loud repeated blasts can cause anxiety confusion uson nightmares headaches and fatigue as if that wasn't enough one unlucky man from the fifty seventh Georgia peaked over the top of his trench to scope out the scene and was shot in the head by a sniper so the union was employing sharpshooters to kill anyone who showed any movement between the constant cannon fire and the threat of being shot in the head. The men of the fifty seventh were expecting death at any moment if the sharpshooters didn't get them hunger dysentery or malaria would the trenches had stockpiles of bullets but no food or clean water William Vincent started to wonder whether he'd go the same way as his his brother a slow quiet death buried in an unmarked hole somewhere in the wretched state of Mississippi by the end of June half the confederate troops had been pulled out of their entrenchments and taken to the hospital for the few healthy men who remained the food supply was so low the rations were reduced to one biscuit and a piece of rancid bacon each day without adequate food anything and everything everything was being used as sustenance dead horses and Mules stray dogs even shoe leather an official statement went out from the Richmond Headquarters on June twenty eighth the major general recommends to the troops that when a mule is maimed by the fire of the enemy soup is perhaps the most palatable form in which the flesh can be used Robert braswell against all odds had grown another three inches in the past year at a towering six foot four he was now one of the tallest and youngest members of the regiment since bigger bodies naturally require more energy to function and younger people tend to have faster metabolisms This meant that Robert's body would be burning through its fat stores more quickly than his older shorter comrades this put him at an increased risk for the physical and mental effects of starvation including apathy unstable moods and decreased brain function Asian those side effects may have been a factor in his risky next move after a few weeks in the trenches Braswell and a few friends slipped out of their foxhole crept through the sharp shooter infested woods and strolled right into town like the confederate soldiers the civilian residents Vicksburg were also trapped in the city without supply lines as such they weren't overly friendly towards troops who came foraging for food there was always at least one citizen Standing Guard at night to keep wandering soldiers away from their vegetable gardens but one woman sitting on her porch took pity on the starving young boys strolling by she stepped inside and returned with the home baked meat pie still warm from the oven Braswell and his friends gobbled it up in seconds. He thanked her and said that there's the best pie I ever ate ma'am. The woman replied glad it is that's the first rat pie I've ever baked with. Even the townspeople sustaining themselves on Rodents General Pemberton realized he was running out of time. It was clear that the Yankees were willing to stay put until every single. Confederate Starve to death. The only way to survive was to surrender on the afternoon of July third after six and a half weeks in the trenches. The confederates waved a white flag flag of truce pemberton grant met under a tree halfway between their two lines to negotiate the terms of surrender taking all thirty thousand confederates prisoner would be monumentally time consuming and expensive sensitive so instead the troops would be paroled that is they were allowed to go home under the condition that they wouldn't return to duty until an equal number of union soldiers were released in an exchange the next morning on the fourth of July eighteen sixty three the two hundred or so men still standing from the fifty seven Georgia lined up to surrender their arms and colors the ultimate disgrace some of the other regiments had cut up their flags the night before to avoid the dishonor of turning them over to the enemy but the fifty seventh marched forward with their heads held high and their bullet riddled confederate flag billowing in the morning wind one one last time William Vincent had gotten what he wanted he was going home and in one piece but as he laid down his rifle and unclasping his sword belt the relief must've been tinged with disappointment there regimen had lost more than half their men since arriving in Vicksburg and for what nothing was gained not even glory Robert Braswell had finally seen the combat he'd been dreaming about and it ended in failure and shame and when he got home he would have to tell his older brothers all about it coming up the men of the fifty seventh Georgia Georgia go home and almost immediately called back into battle. 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Get your free quote at embrace pet insurance dot com slash survival right now embraced pet insurance dot com slash survival embrace pet insurance is underwritten by American modern insurance group terms and conditions apply see website for details <music>. We are so appreciative of you spending the time to listen to our show and as a thank you we want to do something special for you. Hard cast shows are teaming up to commemorate the fiftieth anniversary of a landmark season in American Erkin history. The summer of nineteen sixty nine for three weeks were diving deep into the summer America hit a boiling point with twenty three special episodes across sixteen different podcast originals surviving on earth is one thing but what about surviving in space on my other podcast extraterrestrial bill and I investigate the Apollo missions in May of nineteen sixty nine as the Apollo ten astronauts passed over the far side of the moon. Their radios videos picked up strange music. It didn't come from ground control. Was it a simple malfunction to hear all of the fascinating summer of nineteen sixty nine episodes search for and subscribe to summer of nineteen sixty nine on spotify or anywhere else you listen to podcast shows and don't forget to tune into my other show extraterrestrial to hear more about surviving the Apollo missions now back to the story <music> on the fourth of July eighteen sixty three the fifty seventh Georgia regiments surrendered at Vicksburg Mississippi at the end of a forty seven day siege after they signed their parole agreements they were sent home until they could be officially exchanged with union prisoners and return to duty when the train rolled into Fort Valley Georgia the starved and dirt cake soldiers were given a hero's welcome. The crowd of enthusiastic friends and neighbors apparently hadn't heard how total their defeat had been Robert Braswell pushed his way through the excitement and found his mother. They barely hugged each other. Hello before she dropped the bad news his grandfather Williamson mims was on his deathbed Williamson. mims was one of the richest plantation owners in the area when he died roberts immediate family stood to inherit hundreds of acres of land and Dan the few dozen enslaved people who worked at it may not have registered in his mind but unlike many of his poorer neighbours Roberts livelihood was directly tied to the war's final outcome meanwhile William Vincent Jason made the Fifteen Mile Journey from Fort Valley back to Crawford County his family would be full of questions his little brother had died on his watch and now he had to tell the tale to his grieving parents to little charlie okay who just turned two and would grow up without a father and to Christiana widowed at age twenty three he couldn't even tell them that right had died in the service of a great cause anyone who had been on the battlefield could see the confederacy was doomed. He wasn't alone all over Fort Valley. The men of the fifty seventh were dodging questions about the war combat veterans often avoid talking about their experiences for a variety of different reasons for those who experience P._t._S._d.. It can be painful to recount traumatic memories for others. According to author and Iraq war veteran David W peters many times they feel the story would be too much for their loved one to here but there are deeper reasons veterans. Don't talk about it. We know any story we tell cannot capture what really happened over there and what really happened inside of us after a few months of rest the troops were called back to Savannah in mid October eighteen sixty three the prisoner exchange with a union still hadn't officially happened but the confederate leadership didn't see that as a problem the rank and file soldiers beg to differ if they were captured in battle or otherwise found out by the Yankees they could be executed for breaking the terms of their parole. When the fifty-seven Georgia regrouped in Savannah they were hit with of yet another blow to their morale their trusted commander Colonel Bark Lou was gone on sick? Leave William Vincent had been in Barclays Regiment for two years ever since he first enlisted in the state troops if their unfailing leader could make it through all hope was gone soon after arriving the fifty seventh was assigned to guard Fort Bar tow three miles east of Savannah since there were only about two hundred men left after their regiment this meant every soldier had to stand watch at the picket line every single day without being relieved true standing in silence at camp was better than crouching in the trenches but it bread boredom boredom it gave them time to think time to dwell on their inevitable defeat and after a few months the entire brigade had had enough of the civil war in January eighteen eighteen sixty four the fifty fourth Georgia which was stationed at rose do island on the coast of Savannah began plotting a mutiny on the night of the twelfth they would grab their arms and ammunition and March right out of camp. Damn they planned on moving through Savannah picking up their fellow soldiers and bowl you and white bluff and meet the fifty seventh at their camp at Fort Bardo from there the brigade would make their way across the country. Stopping at every fort in their path and convince the rest of the confederate army to abandon their posts and joined the march home the soldiers knew they were fighting a losing battle and the surest way to survive vives was to surrender the low ranking men didn't have the authority to formally surrender but if the entire army refused to fight it would in effect in the war before more lives were lost. It's unclear exactly how how many men were involved in the plot but they seemed fully confident that the rest of their comrades would be willing to join them and at first it looked like they were right a petition circulated throughout at least three camps in the brigade collecting getting the signatures of men who pledged to participate but just days before the mutiny was scheduled to begin one still loyal soldier in the fifty fourth Georgia revealed the plan to his officer who passed the news onto the brigade commander Brigadier General Raleigh e Colston. The ringleaders of the plot were promptly arrested. There was no proof that any men from the fifty seventh Georgia were involved but since the entire higher plan relied on their participation the regimen couldn't escape the blame in his official recommendations after the incident Colston asked the regional commander too kindly remove the fifty seventh from his brigade. He wrote in the spirit of this regiment is bad. The impression prevails probably with good reason that they will not fight if brought before the enemy they are demoralized by the influence of home to which they are to near the fifty seventh knew they had to do something to redeem their reputation or they'd lose their relatively comfortable post in savannah and be thrown back onto the marching trail on March seventh eighteen sixty four the men collectively actively published a statement in the Savannah Republican. It read resolved that the fifty seventh Georgia Regiment unconquered by their toils in Kentucky or the misfortunes of Middle Tennessee and Mississippi are determined never never to lay down our arms until truth and justice be crowned with liberty in the glorious independence of our beloved country resolved that nothing has yet occurred to shake our confidence in the ability of the south finally to achieve her independence. The lofty rhetoric did absolutely nothing to change their commanders opinion but luckily before Colston could punish them too. Severely their ranks were reorganized once again. Colston was reassigned to the garrison in Petersburg Virginia and the fifty seventh Georgia was sent to defend Atlanta. They join a new brigade under the firm hand of fifty seven year old General Hugh W Mercer on May Twentieth The regiment stepped off the train at Altoona station just north west of Atlanta. They only just marched into camp. When Robert Braswell heard a familiar voice calling his name he he turned to see his two older brothers Billy and Samuel? It was the first time they'd seen each other in two years and Robert Barely recognize them. They were so thin and weary billy now twenty four I had lost the patriotic spark in his eyes he'd been promoted to master sergeant and keeping his brigades spirit up was a heavy burden to bear Samuel at twenty years old wasn't looking much better just five five days earlier there regiment had seen their first heavy combat at the battle of Saka and hundreds of their men had been killed but now all three braswell brothers would be fighting side by side in the same division. At least they could be miserable together. There was one other familiar face among the crowd Colonel Charles Olmsted the once commander of Fort Pulaski in the two years since the siege at Polaski Olmstead had matured from green first time commander to an accomplish twenty seven year old warhorse his regiment the first Georgia volunteers had just been reassigned to join Mercer's Brigade Olmstead recognized a few of his Old Georgia state troops at the Camp Robert Braswell William Vincent now he'd finally get to see them in action. The greenhorns who'd earned their stripes the boys who had become men or for the bright eyed youngsters who had become the most forlorn regiment in the confederate army olmstead must have been surprised by the starry state of the fifty seventh Georgia they'd only ever participated faded in one battle but they had lost three quarters of their men and the few who remained were starved sickly and utterly devoid of hope he soon found out the reason Mercer's Brigade was part of a reserve division which meant they were forced to wander all over to support whichever confederate division needed assistance the fifty seventh as we know was used to this by now but olmsted and his first Georgia volunteers had had thus far spent most of their time stationed in Savannah joining the reserve ranks was a rude awakening. The Brigade was roused from their beds at all hours of the night for sudden movements up and down Kennesaw Kennesaw Mountain Olmstead recalled the memory of the night marches is like a nightmare to me horses and men wearied and exhausted stumbling along through red clay mud and darkness ordinarily on the March the men were lively and good natured often breaking into songs but these night tramps were generally made in Moody silence the next two months past as expected a series of minor skirmishes his and retreats a few weeks in the trenches and absolutely no progress toward pushing the Yankees back no matter how many union soldiers they killed more and more troops arrived to replace them by the beginning inning of July. The weary confederates gave up the only thing left to do was retreat regroup and prepare for the inevitable battle for Atlanta. The order to retreat came down at about eleven pm on July Second Mercer's Brigade was once again roused from their slumber to march through the darkness behind them. The peaks of Kennesaw mountain burned read as cannon fire fire set the trees ablaze Olmstead sat on his horse nodding off in sleep then suddenly his I snapped open. He had the feeling of being somewhere familiar they were marching across the campus of the Georgia Georgia Military Institute where Olmstead had gone to school he remembered watching the mountain burn once while he was a student not from battle but from a brushfire Olmstead took one last look at the dorm where they'd spent so many nights dreaming of the future he knew that in a matter of days every brick would be turned to rubble when they made it to their camp outside Atlanta the next morning olmsted received even more demoralizing news the brigade's commander Hugh W Mercer had fallen. Ill olmstead would be replacing him. He kept his expression steady and accepted the command. He couldn't show his superiors any hint that he was reluctant. As he lined his men along the city's northern perimeter at Peachtree Creek olmstead remark to Captain Wallace Howard that they were nearing the point where the great battle must be fought thought Howard replied candidly. I don't know it looks to me like the beginning of the end while Mercer's Brigade or now homesteads brigade assumed position along the southern side of Peachtree each Tree Creek Union troops were forming their line right across the water. Even though they were standing nose to nose there was an unspoken agreement among both sides that they would hold their fire since their firearms took longtime to reload the most effective strategy was to attack in one sudden coordinated charge firing off stray shots before the action officially commenced was considered a serious breach in protocol so. The men stood on their respective sides of Peach Tree Creek for over a week waiting for the order to shoot with the war on pause. The mood was positively friendly. They shouted jokes across the water calling calling each other Yank and Johnny Rabb the Union troops had luxuries that were unheard of in the confederate camps like coffee and sugar occasionally the soldiers would swim out to meet each other and trade tobacco for Food Food Olmstead didn't see a problem with this but he was ordered to put a stop to it still when he looked across the river in the cold rainy morning and saw the Yankees carrying around their pots of steaming hot coffee he he couldn't help but feel paying of jealousy after ten days of waiting homesteads orders finally came down on the morning of July twentieth. The union was crossing Peachtree creek the the battle was about to start coming up the fight for Atlanta begins now back to the story on July twentieth eighteen in sixty four confederate troops lined up along peachtree creek ready to defend Atlanta from the union soldiers just across the water when Robert Braswell took his position on the riverbank he looked over to see his brother's others billion Samuel standing just a few hundred yards away the fifty seventh Georgia and the first confederate infantry were stationed side by side at four P._M.. They charged Olmstead had led his brigade through the patch of dense swampland and broke out into the clear fields to find absolutely nothing their division had aligned themselves too far to the right and homesteads instead brigade missed the union line entirely instead the brunt of the enemy attack was met by the regiment directly homesteads left the first confederate infantry in the confusion a portion of homesteads brigade gade including the fifty seventh Georgia had been pulled to the left following the first confederate right into the Hornets nest they cut through the trees and found themselves surrounded by an entire division of union in troops alone and unexpectedly under fire from all sides. The confederate infantry had no hope of winning this battle or even surviving it their commander General Clement Stevens Wins Road Out to the front of the line and ordered his men to fall back as he was speaking he was shot in the head and instantly killed the fifty seventh. Georgia didn't need to be told twice they did did they did best scattered and ran Robert Braswell ducked through a hail of gunfire choked by clouds of smoke leaping over the fallen bodies in his path he climbed through the woods and over the banks the creek without looking back all but sixteen members of the fifty seven Georgia made it out safely and met up with the rest of their brigade but as the Sun said news trickled in from the battlefield the first confederate unfettered infantry had been decimated at least a third of their men were dead Robert's mind flashed with visions of the body's heat crawled over on his way to safety his brothers could have been among the pile he he slipped through the ranks to find what remained of the first confederate bandaging their wounds by the last light of dusk there Robert heard the news billy and Samuel Braswell were both dead their our bodies had been abandoned on the battlefield along with hundreds of their comrades Robert Wood. Remember this as the defining moment of his life the separation point between the before and after he'd seen hundreds of his fellow soldiers friends and neighbors die in the past two years of losing his brothers was different. The youthful idealism that had once marked his perception of war was now completely extinguished over the next few days the battle for Atlanta fell into unmitigated chaos while the Georgians were marching into position on the morning of July twenty second their divisional commander under General William Walker was suddenly shot from his horse by a single bullet and fatally wounded general mercer. The former leader of the Mercer Olmstead Brigade was chosen to replace him almost immediately mercer made the decision to send two of the divisions three brigades into battle against a much larger union force. They were both promptly pulverized leaving homesteads brigade as the only only unit left while the leadership was debating their next move a stray shell exploded a piece of shrapnel hit instead in the head knocking him unconscious for weeks Colonel Bark lieu of the fifty seventh Georgia took his place leaving the only brigade of the entire division before evening fell bark. Lou literally checked out and headed to the hospital quote exhausted by the fatigues of the day he was replaced faced by Lieutenant Colonel Morgan rawls before the troops even had time to process the change in leadership roles was critically wounded. He was replaced by Lieutenant Colonel Cincinnati's. S Guidon who who just a few hours earlier had been the second in command for the fifty seventh Georgia at this point guidance battlefield reports stated the Brigade was in the utmost state of confusion as regarded. It's organization I immediately ordered ordered in advance but the men could be induced to go no farther as darkness set in the Mercer Olmstead Barca Lou Rawls Guidon Brigade decided to hunker down in their trenches and call it a night when the sun rose the next morning the confederates raised their white flag and negotiated a truce during only a few days of battle the confederate forces had suffered somewhere between five thousand five eight hundred and eight thousand casualties Mercer's Brigade had lost nine hundred twenty nine men more than a third of their original force standoffs and skirmishes continued until the beginning of September when the confederates withdrew from Atlanta Entirely Union General William tecumseh Sherman held Atlanta as his headquarters for the next two months forcibly evacuating all of its cities residents then in November eighteen sixty four he moved his troops out burned what was left of the city and began his infamous march to the sea throughout November Union soldiers has marched South East from Atlanta to Savannah leaving a trail of smoldering ash in their wake entire cities were burnt to the ground not just military forts but homes and private land Sherman an employed a scorched earth policy believing the war would only end if the confederacies infrastructure and economy were completely destroyed he burned civilian property rail lines and businesses he even pull all data from the eighteen sixty census to target areas with the most agriculture his troops foraged for crops stole horses and wagons and then set farms ablaze under direct orders to enforce a devastation shen more or less relentless in January eighteen sixty five the mercer Olmstead Brigade traveled across Georgia on their way to North Carolina as they pass through their hometowns hundreds of soldiers slipped away way to find their families never to be seen again seeing the complete destruction of their homeland. The men knew there was no use in fighting anymore. Even olmstead admitted there was little hope for the confederate cause us and I was about to enter another campaign from which there might be no return with the confederacies defeat so imminent the threat of legal punishment for desertion no longer carried much weight and with most of their towns. Hounds already burnt raised unoccupied helping their families survive seemed more urgent than defending whichever faraway basis that were still standing the safest strategy was indeed to go home and wait for the war to be over by the time they arrived in North Carolina so many men had deserted that Olmstead had to travel back to Georgia and place advertisements in the local papers asking the members of his brigade to return to duty he eventually pulled together about five hundred soldiers. William Vinson dutifully came back as did Robert Braswell since neither man had children to support they might have felt obligated needed to keep up the fight while their fellow soldiers headed home to look after their families or they might have felt that after everything they'd lost they might as well stick it out to the end. The handful of survivors from the fifty seventh Georgia Asia were consolidated into homesteads original regiment. The first Georgia Volunteers Olmstead recalled they made a regiment that any man might be proud of and I was proud but it never fired another shot for the war war was practically at its end on April ninth eighteen sixty five generals Lee and grant met at Apple Matic's courthouse to negotiate a surrender on the twenty six word word came down to homesteads camp that the documents had been signed the civil war was finally over some of the soldiers were furious. They screamed and swore refusing to surrender others cried faced with the reality that all of their sacrifices have been for nothing. Most were just relieved to finally go home. Charles olmsted had mixed emotions he recalled. I was weary three of war and of the long separation from my wife and children I was thankful to that life had been spared and that a new career could be begun yet. Nevertheless it was impossible to avoid a deep feeling of depression Russian as memory brought back the high hope and courage with which we had entered the war of the thousand men who would originally formed the fifty seventh Georgia Regiment in May eighteen sixty two only one hundred hundred seventy remained as they turned over their arms in April eighteen sixty five as a small consolation. The survivors were allowed to keep their colors. The troops marched back to Georgia with with their battle flags flying one last time the destroyed railways forced the men to make the two hundred thirty mile journey from Greensboro North Carolina to Augusta Georgia on foot put when they reached Augusta in early May the regiment disbanded after three years of living and fighting together it was the last time most of them would ever see each other Charles Olmsted now twenty ninety eight and war-weary was ready to go home and see his family for the first time in years his wife had given birth to a baby son and olmstead still hadn't seen him but before he could start the journey home he received two pieces of devastating news confederate officers and their families had been banished from Savannah after Sherman occupied the city his family was taking refuge with his mother in law in Milledgeville and as for the baby he had died in infancy olmstead would never get to meet him. Robert braswell returned to Fort Valley is the only living son in his family he was eighteen now. Now hardened man little remained the spirited young adventurer who'd boarded the train to Savannah for years earlier. One thing he was sure of was that he would never leave for valley again. When William Vincent made at home he learned that writes wife Christiana had died of unknown causes the previous year Charlie who was about to turn four was being raised by relatives while no records remain of what happened happened to the Vincent Family Farm we can assume that like the rest of Georgia's farmers they were struggling between the damage that had been sustained during the war and period of particularly bad weather crop harvests had fallen drastically mystically by the end of the war in eighteen sixty five the annual cotton yield was less than a tenth of what it had been in eighteen sixty beyond the fields? The rest of Georgia's economy and infrastructure was in shambles else. Homes and businesses have been turned to ash the short lived confederate currency was now completely worthless and the states four hundred sixty thousand newly emancipated slaves found themselves thrust west into the middle of the chaos in an attempt to reintegrate the former confederate states into the Union Congress passed the first reconstruction act in eighteen sixty seven placing the south under U._S.. Military occupation former confederates were barred from voting or holding office and the Georgia state government was dissolved until they agreed to ratify the fourteenth amendment and give full citizenship and voting rights to its black residents Georgia Georgia quickly complied but the forceful federal tactics only exacerbated political and racial tensions the political conflicts and widespread destruction of the civil war which shape Georgia for the rest of its history story although the institution of slavery had finally come to an end a new era of racial violence and economic instability was just beginning for better or worse life would never be the same for the soldiers soldiers and civilians who survived the war after the dust of the civil war had settled Charles olmsted went onto a quiet career in life insurance shipping and banking although he never never met his only son he and his wife Florence raised three daughters he died in Savannah at the age of eighty nine Robert Braswell true to his word never left Fort Valley again. He married his childhood hood sweetheart and raised seven children on the farm land he inherited from his late grandfather but over the years nearly all the land was sold to keep the family afloat in the turbulent economy in his later years Robert became known around Fort Valley as a war hero and a local historian. There's no record of what happened to William Vincent between his surrender in eighteen sixty five and his death in nineteen sixteen at the age of seventy-nine nine as for right in Christiana Son Charley he eventually moved to make and found success as a farmer Charlie was still an infant when both of his parents died all he had to remember them by was the bleak letters. Write had sent home from the battlefield and a photograph the couple had taken before the war even decades later Charlie's daughter recalled seeing him stared down at the photo with Tears Rolling Rolling from his is trying to piece together the lives of the forebears who didn't survive to tell their stories. Thanks for listening to survival for more information amongst the many sources we used we found hell's broke loose in Georgia survival in a civil war regiment by Scott Walker extremely helpful to our research. You can find all of our casts shows on spotify and anywhere you listen to podcasts if you enjoy the show the best way to help is to leave a five star review and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network. We'll see you next time. Survival was created by Max Cutler is a production of cutler media and as part of the podcast network it is produced by Max and Ron Cutler sound design signed by Michael Eisner with production assistance by Ron Shapiro and Paul Moller Additional Production Assistance by Carly Madden and Maggie Admire Survival is written by Kate Gallagher and stars Irma Blanco and Tim Johnson. Don't forget to check out my other show extraterrestrial as it looks into the Apollo missions plus. You can check out all the other episodes of podcasts summer of sixty nine event haunted.

Georgia Robert Braswell Yankees commander Georgia Regiment Corporal William Vincent Robert Polaski Olmstead Savannah confederate army Fifty Seven Th Georgia Infantr Fort Valley olmstead Georgia Georgia General Hugh W Mercer Mississippi Atlanta Colonel William Barclay Lou Charlie
FTP119: Bonnitta Roy - Ego & Group Practices

Future Thinkers Podcast

00:00 sec | 8 months ago

FTP119: Bonnitta Roy - Ego & Group Practices

"Hey guys welcome back. Our guest today is Benita Roy. She's an author philosopher and teacher WHO's focusing on building greater capacities for human sense making. She has a wealth of experience working with groups and in her work. She integrates cognitive science phenomenology and she gone with emergent themes and transformative education leadership self organization in complexity science in part one of our interview. We talk about group processes deconstructing the EGO and shadow work group settings. You'll find all the links and show notes for this episode at future thinkers dot org slash one hundred eighteen now. Let's dive into the interview. Hey this future thinkers where we talk about how to adapt to a changing world build more resilience upgrade culture and society and create meaning and purpose with your hosts. Mike it'll end Elva so Benita. Welcome thanks for joining us. This is we've been watching a lot of your content lately so we're excited to be talking today. Yeah congratulations I feel like I'm a little bit part of your family now. Yeah yeah we were just talking before we started. We don't know what to do with with our kids. When we do these podcasts episodes. We've got nowhere to put them. So if you hear some squawking in this episode then it's not. It's the baby always me. Yes so yeah. There is an example. So my first question for you is. How do you deal with the tendency of groups to get trapped in this never ending cycle of creation and deconstruction of personal and interpersonal problems? So I don't go there directly one of the things that I've noticed it depends like what situations I already created a scenario in my head. So it's different if I know that. Sometimes you guys actually have courses. That's different than if you're doing group process right because when you have a course you become more of I have knowledge on going to give you some Suggestions whereas when you truly joint bid process you're inside culture itself and so everything you say is up for deconstruction by the group right. So so the scenario. I'm getting answer in his. When you're actually trying to be participate in the group process itself and one of the things is I tend to. I don't think you should go there directly. I don't think you should point out that. Someone's Egos talking or point out this. I've always had this problem with the traditions because they keep yelling at the ego and every time you talk to the EGO. You're actually rarefied yet. So a lot of group process has to do with performance. We're always trying to avoid performance contradiction. You know so. For example. We don't want to England obviously to yell at any girl but we also don't want to ratify the EGO by confronting and the question. The question is who are you talking to? Who Are you act what? Who Are you speaking with? When you're when you're goal is to maybe dissolve some of the round resolve that the ego structure. And what are the kind of moves that you can do where You know g move where you are actually working with the forces that dissolve the Eagle itself like the EGO is a stable construction under certain conditions. And it's not a stable structure under other conditions and you're actually just trying to cultivate conditions in which the EGO is not as able structure and or what other types of south can someone anger themselves in but if you directly go to deconstructing the ego and then you can do that But I think you'll find that it can be very frustrating and yeah so. That's kind of a meadow view. You can make more particle question out of that. Actually my question would be. Do you have any direct tips for kind of bypassing the ego win it comes up Or or bringing it to someone's attention suffers to have imagine. What am I speaking with? I see the the ego as energy arising and then I say what am I speaking with? If there's no ego than what is is not a structure like what is arising that. I'm trying to dance with And I tried to really visualize in that so much of you know image but talk to enter in to the felt sense that there is something beyond or beneath something else. That's happening in this dance so I'm not even going there. It's like it's like a whole approach. The Eagle comes to be sliding context. It's like it's like yes. I address that like sometimes. There's a hundred different ways your responses than become spontaneous. But like one time I was teaching in something. This one man was quite aggressive. This young guy and then he just starts downloading the all. This stuff is coming at you know instead of getting addressing what he was saying. I was just like wow. That's a lot of energy and I just kind of sat back. I don't even know what he said I was like. Wow that energy really had come up so when he was finished Do you feel better now an inept. I thought it was a joke question but really and then he reflected. He's like yeah. I feel better now. You see I didn't. It wasn't like I even I wasn't bothered with what the construction the EGO was making us trying to figure out like. Where's that coming from? What what function is it serving in the organism? A you know and and Working trying to work at that level And actually what came out of those? He you know he reflected he said yeah and then a little while later we had a break and he came back and he said. I know why that happens. You see so. Every people have reflexive aspect organism will be self reflective but under certain conditions you create more potential for that and other other conditions. You're actually Raya finding the very structures You're trying to dissolve. And you know this is really tricky work but I know that you guys have a lot of experience and you can perhaps play around. We've got MU. That's that's one example My own journey a have to admit Was helped by training horses because when you train horses a lot of energy a lot of what can look like aggression or this or that you know you you you start when you're young training you ask. Why is that Horse Mad at me? Or why are they stubborn? Or why this and then you realized they don't have a story this just kind of a dance of energy and sometimes the energies and up in sometimes it's confused or sometimes it's free flowing and so even by the time. I started Trading stallions you know really you see all this energy coming at you and it's just energy you know in your cell because I will. People will project an ego structure and story on onto horses. And then they resort abusive techniques because they're fighting with a structure. That's not fair. That's not in the horses experience but I did A. I DID A horse workshop. Once with a group of people who then some of them went right into group process and this one woman was having a difficult time in her new boyfriend happens to be very. They're very disruptive she was having a very difficult time and then on the second day she was like. Wow they're just horses and she didn't need it to dehumanize people she was using what she had learned and so like even this notion of the Eagle has to be distraught can deconstruct. The these are stories that are eagles make meaning out of other people out of the energy of tensions to actually caught in. Recombinant recombination recumbent. Ego is stop you know. So That's how I've avoided I've I've tried not to even if I don't see. See the Eagle in. Yeah I see the energy I can. Talented structure can feel that it's contraction. But I try not to speak to it or speak about it because tends to ratify that. It's real you know. Now that's different than when I naturally doing courses on The I ne- mind complex when it's online how's IT PRE constituted phenomenologically. Then we talk about it as a holistic system and then so then. We're actually talking about how it's constructed how it arises naturally. How you know how we can talk about this. Maybe in very early childhood experience how these primary schemers primitive Egos and you know we can talk about it in a kind of instruction to instructive way but in group process I try not to shine a light on it either. Positively or negatively. I just don't talk to and I sit back and I try to say what's arising here. Energetically felt sense or I don't even try to. Psychology is it. Oh the eagles wounded or you know I because that's also a little bit. It's more subtle but I try to kind of dance with the Energy. And visualize a spacious nece or a state out where those energies are pleasant and in let myself speak from their whatever comes out or maybe sometimes nothing comes out a. Lotta Times surprising. Wow where did that come true? Even that's an appropriate response. 'cause you just surprise your genuinely surprised you know like there's a spike in energy. Oh my God you know. And then Yeah and kind of taking it from there. So one thing. I noticed at the beginning of the story. That you're telling about the guy who just downloaded all of that energy onto you Was the way you addressed. It seemed to be first of all. You seem to have a knowledge of where it was coming from and that it wasn't about the content of what he was talking about. It was more of the emotional center and then it seemed like you only address the emotional part and that stood out to me is is a good technique. Even though he didn't explicitly stated. Yeah so here. I want to be a little pedantic and make a distinction. We make it my courses and that is the difference between affect which is what the body's doing and emotion and emotion is a story on top of what the body's doing so with this distinction semantic distinction. I wasn't paying attention to his emotion. I noticed that the body was doing something different. I mean his literally physically outside inside and there was kind of a spike in in energy happening and Yeah so one of the things we did when he came back and he said. I think I know why that happened in. We have been working together for a while. He 'cause I imported that story about what she was saying and I was mad at the story. He you know he let some energy. That was like a little difficult. The woman did have some kind of emotional energy and he made a big story The story was like I gave her. I gave her more space than he fought I should have because she was kind of. I knew what she was kind of saying was new agey so he had the story that I was being a favourite to him. Knocked her out what he was fighting with. Nothing in the wrong. He was fighting with the story. That was imported. See his body got him comfortable. And what the mind does is. It serves Reasons for why you might become so all right. It's evolved to say you know is it? This is at and a Lotta Times. Those reasons are just these stories so in storied and so then he started fighting with the with the story instead of just paying attention to what the body was doing and processing that so when I say affects is they're just like everything else they come and they go and they take time they take right there like the like the breast in the heartbeat and if he had stayed at that level it would have just been a rhythm in the space but he jumped the miners up a story. He didn't notice he got into the story really fast. And then then you have more than just the affect. You have kind of a vicious cycle between the story that then then then then turns up the Unpleasant tree in the body so that Stab we we tried to We tried to Do exercises in my course to try to get closer to the Tago when the when the feeling in your body toggles into a story so you get better at better noticing just before that happens you can deal with it at its origin and that's an exercise that people get very very good at a done it and then some people be like. Wow there's proto thoughts I can tell even before it's thought the quality of the The sensation starts to get a little like a little bit like indigestion in. I know that that's GonNa turn into our thoughts so I swallow it then at this really you know you can get really good at this and so you see everything. I'm talking about deconstruct the EGO. But none of the practices talk about the EGO. They just say this is what happens. Can we noticed that you know these are the conditions under which the structures are dissolved? Come you know one thing. I'm noticing a lot in group practices and it happened quite a bit earlier on last year. And we've we've kind of accepted the conversation from that point and I don't think we've really brought it up but there's this question of of when am I done processing my trauma and especially in that group setting like when is it time to put that to bed if that's even necessary and then go out there in the world and do something so this is a really good question and it So get us. Some of the language from rea- Back System. You know she says that there's there's socal of presence where you're learning how to be present with each other to not have so many triggers not have your ego involved not you know all these biases and all these these inadequate ways of discourse conversation. That's a circle of presence. How can we just be five people in a room and start from square one? You know there is no square one. We all have all this baggage and all these reforms ideas all his condition but basically she calls it. The Circle of presence in. We can argue. There is some argument That this is actually a skill at were reclaiming from our past that. We actually used to know how to do this. It's hypothetical but you do see that. A lot of them are employing skills like ritual and some of these older structures to make this happen so understanding that. There's that at one face. And then she says the purpose of circle of presence is to be able to create a circle of creation where you are coming which is what. I call insight practice where the group is coming up with insights in awareness and orientations perspectives. That were not held by anyone in that space before And so your question is when do we went is our have we done enough in. I as to get to the second phase now I think that some people I don't think you have to do the first phase one hundred percent. I think that some people have this idea of people becoming you know one hundred percent clean and then we can get onto things. I think. That's that's really a mistake and the other reason why it's mistake is because If you're spending too much time investigating your psyche as a group that psyche will invent new territory as you explore. It's an infinite game Is What does psyche does so So you know I know. People who do internal family systems. And they're like you know and then the parts create parts in themselves in the. They're they're mapping out this territory of and so that's what the psychic does the psyche is like a fission reactor. It creates early early. On in the child's life it creates primary Schema and then internal working models then the eagles structure and this is what I e does so It can be an endless endlessly cursive so So I think that there is a real phenomenon happening in some of these circles with were especially in the west week over psychologists stuff so where that's happening it's the same with when a circle gets like a you projecting or am I interacting or. Is that real you know? And and those kinds of conversations are crazy they're crazy to try to analyze because when the psyche of You transfer is a counter transference. You hear all this nonsense okay So to take a strong stand on that. Those are not Those are not Beneficial performance says to do in group space. I think is is important. And so then the question is what are we. What are we envisioning as the fruition of this first phase And there's comes apart Comes appoint any groups life where you just say what if we put this to a question a real question or a real test or action in the world that both ups the ante but also will give you some sense if that that groups groups going to move I think that I think being very clear. What is what is the goal. What is the fruition of the first phase? What would that look like? What is the minimum adequacy? You need And the other thing is I think that a few you can take a few people who have very good skills and bring them into group where people don't and as long as they're not exponentially exaggerating those skills they can increase the capacity so you can move for example yourselves into a group of experts. We don't really have dialogical skills but you can make a place for them in terms of their expertise and still have A productive session. That's in this case productive. Means you solve the problem or moved up quite inquiry long not song. Everybody's trauma in one of your other interviews. You talked about sort of the three stages of development and I'm not sure what which model is's but you talked about the first stage as people project everything outwards like the problem is outside out there. It's you know other people's crowd are I have to fix something in the world? I have to save people. It's all externally focused. Then something happens on the knee realize. Oh actually all of this stuff is a projection of internal state and so then they start focusing on fixing their internal state than doing healing and constant nasal getting navel-gazing and then the third stage is that they realize. Oh actually none of this is about me at all. And I'm completely inconsequential in this. I'm more of an instrument of something larger. I really love that framework. It's very simple but it really illustrates something quite well. Yeah and so the people that spend too much time. You know trying to heal their trauma. They it's kind of narcissism you start to see there's a kind of narcissism right now the whole point in the world is evolved so that you can heal your drama also want to say something about trauma and that is Which I every year I had with my new cards. We have to make the distinction. You know there's existential reality about about being human and not all of that. Existential pain is trauma. It you know we have to be able to separate what is trauma from you know you. Have you have to individually from your parents as very painful and it leaves memories and it has archetypes or has primary Schema and it's a process you have to go through but that's not trauma. I mean people like hold onto like I've been through. I felt through primary school. I've been through a break up with my boyfriend like they just hold onto this like like you know. Now they're Israel trauma the Israel trauma and the thing is there are fabulous stories of people who've been through awful trauma and they shine they shine as people and so this is kind of like when you're moving from the second phase to the third you realize you've made the whole thing about you. You know so yes. It feels great when you go into the Sonogram and you realize if I myself than my actual reality changes but then you get mesmerized. We've got an and you start to think like that's that that whole that whole thing is about you that your whole spiritual growth is about satisfying. You are getting cracking the code. I call it cracking the code. So that now you're happy and Jerry Field people move out of that. I find I have never been in a group. That's been able to successfully move into the circle of creation which I called collective insight practice which is why I don't do group process because of waiting to to collective insight practice and I can in my students I hear there between some of our between the second one in the third and you can hear people say they used to use phrases like it's not about me on my instrument or spirit is working through me. You start saying that. There's something that's coming through there. It's not something they have to do. And you start seeing. It's not like work I have to do on myself it's Work is being asked of me. You know and of course people with severe trauma shadows. That could be ugly. But in many cases People are coming are moving through that second phase and realizing they're not finished but it doesn't have to be achieved you know. It was on Joe. Brewer was on your. Your movie talked about this on your interview. But he talked about the difference between achievement. Problems in practice problems. You know your psyche isn't something to be achieved. It changed the perfect psyche. It's something to be continuously practiced through the Abbot question. Feel we might as well go there like what is the purpose. What is what is why. Are we all so excited about group process at this time in history? What is the purpose? What are we seeing as the benefits? what other or one of the claims we are making you know. This is a question that I had when I first started. In two thousand twelve the claim was at this was happening in these groups group processes you know people are making claims of group in fighting and all these things in an. I started participating in them and I didn't actually see that they were achieving claims that they were making. And so. That's maybe an interesting question to make a bummer. But well yeah I think I mean. We don't claim a whole lot. Aside from the just being there is a community in there are people who are talking about the set of subjects in doing these set of practices. And maybe you might be interested in doing it. It's not like we're advertising enlightenment or something in in the courses or the group the groups although I think some of the work relates to that question and we've especially been discussing a lot of the jet McKenna Books About Spiritual Enlightenment in the calls which I think is interesting. But it's irrelevant really. It's the community is kind of the sales focused right. Come in me like minded people that kind of thing but there is transformational experiences that individuals are going through. I would say within the groups that are just a matter of doing the work and doing the processes and it's a lot. It's a hell of a lot more individual work then group process work. I mean group. The group seems to just be like okay. You're not insane. I mean you're you're you seem to be on the right track and it's more of a confirmation of what most people seem to intuitively already understand when they're doing the work that's really it. Yeah Ellen show the other part of your question. Why is there sort of society? Wise there is so much addressed in group practice and I don't know what the case is other people and I don't want us you that the same to me. It seems that People are realizing that the sort of individualistic approach. That was really popular in the previous decades. That there is something incomplete about it that we need to earn relearn to relate to each other and actually it seems to me that a lot of these group practices are not inventing anything new there. Just rediscovering what people used to know. How To do intuitively before? Yeah and the and the questions are more sophisticated like the questions we have about ourselves or more sophisticated but the way the group can haul that is is is probably evolutionary old. An embedded in human system Yeah I like to look at these phases of group or community practice as asynchronous transformation of the individual. So it's a synchronous transformation. But every but it's coursing through everybody right so If you if you bleed out the time you could conceivably experience as a simultaneous transformation but it seems to I have a synchronous kind of a rhythm to it and I think that's very helpful for people because if you say you know it's a transformational circle But it has this a synchronous rhythm than people will still feel inside the circle and notice that there's different spotlights of transformation little insights happening here and there that don't necessarily land with everyone but if everyone was participating than that's off like when have shined so I think that's a claim that this were can make the brand new future thinkers members portal is now alive develop your sovereignty and self with our in depth courses get access to our weekly since making calls joined the QNA's with past podcast guests and much more become a future thinkers member today at future thinkers at org slash members. I've never really heard anyone talk specifically about the role of shadow work in group format. It seems to be and I mean the experience that we have with it is. It does seem to be quite heavily individualistic. But there's something to circling that seems to especially as people are watching something arise in each other and in themselves. It seems to point that they're a shadow material but as far as the practice of doing shadow work is that does that have a place in group group dynamic so I'm just gonNA answer by Talking about how Perhaps address shadow work. You know one of the problems with some of these practices is they. They become Like the whole notion of shadow work is already loaded. You know so then at an so what I talk about is I like to look at So when I come into group space one of the things that I think is important is to de emphasize the The individual and look at it more in terms of the group is constantly shaping itself and shaping each other right because this is kind of where we want people to understand and so like when you enter a group space. So I'll talk about it like this when you enter public space immediately. You're going to adopt certain persona. That's when we're going to. It's going to shape. You need it league like When we call people call a collective insight retreat here just calling. It is already shaping. The people it's ringing questions and so the thing is working itself and this is again like it's not about me only about me. It's how do I respond to the process that's underway. How's the process asking me to respond? Oh carry so instead of saying you have shown you have to work on something. Which again puts a spotlight on the carthy unit of inquiry the Unit and inquiries grew and in this present moment. And so what I will say. You know what we'll talk about is how Again I I spend a lot of time talking about how in early childhood you have a me before you have an I and the me is the way your parents look at you. You realize that you're an object for their perception and that what you do without me changes your relationship to that to your caregivers a little later on you realize the me that your father sees us all gendered. Stereotypes is different than my main. Your mother sees and you start to make primary scheme was about gendered roles in the me is online and this becomes the social me. You know so when we're in social space. We're always trying to pick from our little box of tools. The object that's going to in the public sphere so the way I work with that is in if I'm facilitating a novice group. I'll say all be sitting around people with a saying something and then I'll say you noticed a lot of stuff going on your minds is like all the stuff going on your minds and then you have a gatekeeper. That would never say that like there's a whole lot going on the other. There's the gatekeeper. Like what does that gatekeeper. What is its function you know? Let's look at the gatekeeper. And you know our people be quiet and tease them. Like all you people Reich. I know there's a lot going on there you know and So we noticed that there's a whole lot going on the doesn't make it out into public space so we look at that and then So we don't say you have to expose it or anything but you're looking at how what's under the hood here and we all have it you know. And so Yeah so what's what's what's not making. It has something to do with shadow right now. Some people might put it in that frame. So what would not? But I don't really I try to be much more human about it like I say I'll say something. Why not just kicking from different experiences? Something like people were in a pickle because you come to these groups and you want to be seen. I mean everybody really wants to be seen but everybody is terrified to be seen so we hide so we put each other. And that goes 'cause like on that you can't see me on my mother or my partner but I actually get keep who I am. And so how is it possible for me to be seen so we just all stacked talk about like what what how this thing functions? And it's okay. It's okay how it functions we just need to become aware of how the functions and yeah so. That's kind of you know I. I have a different way of languaging different way of working in in spaces than some other Techniques out there it seems your responses. Come from this very embodied like you're you're not looking at anything theoretically almost with my question. It's almost a very theoretical question. That doesn't play out in the way that I framed the question. Yeah it's it's interesting. I know people who are really coaches. They've been through like landmark or Avatar. There's these programs and they work a lot with shadow and then I've worked with them in They come to the point. Where is very sophisticated right? This very high level where they realize I help them realize their shadow is just a structure. You may so we're like we make a structure the concept of shadow and then we spend it all lives trying to get rid of it and I say why making up in the first place. Why take me all about release complexity? Why take that first step? And that's where I think leverages like so you have all these people going around in these groups talking about shadow Sha that it's the it's the actual step that is in the way I want to take that step. It's interesting. How much pain is built up around the structure of of having a past trauma to work through whereas just looking at it without judgment often can just be enough. Yeah it is interesting. How much people build up these structures in their mind before they're able to actually tackle them or whatever you WANNA call it. Construct them exactly so that comes up in space out say if. I'm being really playful shadow shadow. Where is it like is it like where is it but or I'll say if you didn't have the concept of shadow? What would you be experiencing now good question well and then I'll has? That's what you're actually experiencing. Everything else is a thought and is it helpful or is it not helpful to me. That's off the work is literally. It's not easy but that's all it is. Everything else is a hybrid complex vacation of professional skills that sells the price of the ticket. So there that's what I really as a community you know we have to because in. This is to aunt my answer to wise hydro buses because it also has proliferated in an an economic system where complexity in hybrid complexity and the illusion of the priestly professional class to do some direct work on yourself is part of what creates the dummy hand in the interest. And so now. I'm not saying people do this. Consciously this is audited but we need people that can release the complexity and do this level of facilitation. It doesn't mean people. Go ahead yeah. Of course it's still hard but you don't want you WanNa be V it's like you. WanNa be a surgeon the laser you don't WanNa be a surgeon in the confederate army. Where would they would take a a saw? Incorr- off your leg. We we want this technology to be like laser surgery and we need people ball to really understand what works in these spaces and what just increases the complexity infinite complexity of the human condition. I really really glad you were at the south. Because yeah this idea that you can get rid of the or should get rid of the AGO or the shadow is so preposterous to me. Because they are structures you could say evolutionary structures that have a function and they do something and by trying to remove them. Exactly like trying. To sever your limb. It's it's even if it is possible. It's not useful or healthy so it seems to me that just allowing it in observing Accepting it is a much healthier route and you know if you if you have an infection in the hand you just look at it and you deal with the infection rather than chopping off the whole hands. You know that that does bring up something that I'm just noticing now about maybe a incoherence and definitions that we're using like when I hear you talk about what I would term ego deconstruction. Aligns with my idea about it but I. I think I'm using a term that is not clicking with you like you something about the ego deconstruction thing and I think you've is well. It's not really working for you. So what would you call it like this deconstruction of frameworks that make up your identity? That aren't necessarily true. Just like we would say. That's the shadow. What's the term if we're not gonNA use the EGO deconstruction? Maybe I can answer it in in. My case is just observing that something is a structure because that in a way kind of makes it less sticky when when you can quiet the mind enough and just observe that. It's doing something like Oh you know it's engaging in this process are it's like I have this feeling in the triggers. This thought. Oh interesting just observing that Kinda makes less makes less have A. How would I describe it? Have less of a a looping function. Yeah so I think that's a good refunding because we you know we can go off in all directions so I will you know what I guess. I'm pushing back against is problem ties in Ego. I think that's a little bit of what are you saying But I would say that it's important to understand What do we mean by ego what what is like what's undergo heart and there's egoism ego and So so for example we talk. I can talk about primary affect so primate affect my body is. What's what's what you know. My heart goes up or goes down with neurochemical superman. What my hormones are doing What my blood pressure is doing. My program -CEPTION my dizzy. You know like this is days. Some of my muscles are contracted summer expanded. So there's something my body's doing and this is not ego it's free. Egon work potentials of basically inferior Mammalian self. Okay so I can put that aside. That's not what I mean by Ego. And then salt we call those ethics and then there's the perceptual system. You know not which is just your What you see here taste smell. Your Body. Sensations your appropriate option this again. His Carnegie or Mammalian Animal human-animal Nature. That's not ego. So then what is ego right? What is what then. If those those are pre ago Dan what is ego and so to me. It's always seems like the storyteller that builds an identity in attempts to explain. Those things is story this is why Suzanne Cooke grinders work. Everybody that is researching Eagle developing. They has questions their sentence completion tests. Because it's the kind of story will tell so I don't show what I teach is to notice how when the story that mind serves a story. You know something's your babies crying we get a little narrow -tated in mind serves up a story. I I remember once being on a plane and this baby in front of me was literally way off the charts. Some people are last with very difficult children and I could tell the parents. She must've been on two years old and I could tell the parents figuring out their program for when she was having tantrums and on talking about Livid screaming like for twenty thirty minutes and I watch myself go from tolls frigging parents. What they're bad parents. Why don't they do something about it to like? Oh my gods child isn't so much fainter like that stupid child. I would Muslim later. Something and the and I could see these stories. Just come up one after another. You know kind of you know trying to give me some explanation or trying to suggest something I could do. And then once. I realized that I was just watching them. Come up and come up and then slowly. My body wasn't irritated. It was just noise like I was kind of like. Oh listen to listen to the frequencies or something and then you know. The child calmed down. And I have a feeling that like the something that like. I was like probably got caught until like energizing that energy or something you know and so literally the body just serves up all these even more happy you know the body serves up this story like. Oh maybe you spend more time with him. There is a story right. You have a eighties fish on time with him. And then you get in that story and of course you know that's dry goes the first little thought starts to build this whole story about your happily ever life now and then you go to your friends in that story so then the question becomes like a you know once you start working with historic is a couple of interesting thing happens and you realize that you're tortured by the story with a big part of you. That doesn't wanNA live without one. You feel the mind will not be satisfied whittling while like if I said to someone like I said before. Like if you didn't have the concept of shadow what would your experience be and you realize like well I actually would be disappointed because there's not enough drama and now you know now you start to realize oh well that's the function the story has in your life. It's kind of a drama coal. If you want to live like that like the meanest maybe and you can watch TV or something. But I don't probably problema ties it. We want to understand first of all why the mind serves up stories. Are they Profitable beneficial and then if you notice that he actually liked them then you understand your complicit with that's why you keep generating them because you're actually something is satisfied by having the and so a lot of people are in drama. I mean kids do that. You know when you're irritated with your sister when you're a kid you kinda like how to make a fight and then it becomes a Fi and when you look back on it or at the time you realize you talk about is if you didn't WanNA fight but energetically wanted to get in a fight. That's where he kinda provoked it you know in so you start to see. There's up the sum. Total of human condition is is really fascinating end for us to understand. It is more important for us to fight with some of it it. It's here way it is. That's a great distinction between Deconstruction and just becoming aware. I'm I'm glad you made that distinction because I keep using the term ego deconstruction when it actually should be differentiated between those two. That's helpful. It's more like Eagle understanding. What IS THE EGO. And how you can. You can literally learn how to see how there's composing itself. Oh there. It is composing itself. Oh there's a story you know yeah. It seems to the awareness part of it seems to relate to where the egos actually necessarily he. Don't WanNA deconstruct everything. You want to know where some elements are necessary like. I want my child to behave well in public and not disturb other people and that kind of thing so there's this kind of Ego ick element to that of like. Don't embarrassed me kid which is actually kind of useful to help the KID. Behave properly Yeah okay for. Sometimes I'll just I'll see I'll see this story and look at it and I'll say even in groups face on like I'm just going with it. I just feel tugged and sometimes that gets a Lotta push but then it turns out sometimes pushed back has been helpful to move things forward. You know but if you can slow slow what is happening automatically down so you can see how it works. You have more choice and then you do that for five or six years and eventually what shows up is more helpful than not. Somehow you shaved the way it works. You don't have to be so vigilant you know. The whole point is not that I can credibly vigilant your whole life. You know. There's something here that have been trying to pinpoint in. It's coming from experience so I don't I don't haven't figured out how to put words to it yet but there's this thing of actually you know it relates to what you said when people enter into a group practice and they want to appear smart they want to figure out where they rank against everyone in the group so they want to project some ideal version of themselves and there's something of that related to a desire to have an outcome be a certain way. I WANNA be perceived a certain way I want this call to work out a certain way you know a lot of it's to do with ranking but there's also just an attachment to results of there in the world which to me seems to be a basis for the egos storyteller thing and I haven't found much of a basis outside of that. It's like that seems to be centerpoint than I thought so. So the ranking is gus structure that your stories take right so We said the EGO has to do with a story but then you can notice that the stories you tend to that there are some basic structures called there said that there's one mother structure money the other structures so you start to seeing that your stories are helpful even the helpful ones whether they're helpful or not their day. Makita structure so ranking is one of the structures. This is this one really big and One of the keys signs to there's basically six different Structures ranking as one the two biggest ones are ranking and belong belonging people have high belonging needs get very nervous when people rank because it seems like other people being excluded enright guards. It's an instinct you walk into a room. Maybe it's just a big conference in year at dinner. You just look around and you sit with someone. Maybe it's not someone who presented but it turns out to be a big Cahuna like you just have an instinct for the alpha or something you know but and that's not a problem. I think these typologies They actually curiously map onto the six. Buddha bodies. So that's kind of interesting when you tank on and so one of the Davies at the end the you know you find like what. You're kind of archetypal pattern news but the Keita's when you're driven by a subtle sense up it's never enough. It's never enough. So people are ranker's even though they achieve all kinds of things they don't think they've achieved anything and it's never enough and so you become you become First of all neurotic but you know you become aggressive and non ethical almost in your pursuit of something. That's not facial belongers. Same Way they have so many friends and it's never enough is never enough you know. They feel like they're worthless and nobody likes them in from the Outside. You like what so? It's not that the typology is bad. It's when it's driving you with a subtle sense that it's never enough. You never let yourself say wow I have a lot of friends and they step by knee or well and a lot with my life and you know I don't really like being on the circuit but I'm chasing this invitation on that invitation really. What's the real reason why? Because I don't think I've done enough. It's never enough so the typology is not a problem but the and then when you get rid of what's driving that it's not enough then usually your life spreads out a different way and you make much you make much more of a garden variety of choices rather than the same choice so the way that works is the. Eagle has stories the stories if you look at them you'll see their structure there there's a predominant structure it's unconsciously driving you to the sense of. There's never enough. So it's kind of neurosis to get the full episode. Go to members dot feature thinkers dot org for five bucks a month. You'll get access to all of our full podcast episodes unreleased material from past episodes and occasional extra content from our courses including guided meditations lessons more. Plus you'll be helping us. Keep the lights on thanks. Nc there if you like this content you might WanNa check out our seven ways to adapt to the future guidebook. Get it for free at future thinkers dot org slash sign up. You might also want to check out. Our Future thinkers membership area. We have courses there to help you. Adapt to the changing world build resilience upgrade culture and society and create meaning and purpose in your life as well you'll get access to our community all of our unreleased content private zoom calls live. Cuny's with guests workshops events and more members future thinkers dot org every month. We ran a contest where we give away one month of the future membership for free. 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NPR News: 07-24-2020 10AM ET

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04:39 min | 4 months ago

NPR News: 07-24-2020 10AM ET

"Live from NPR news I'm Janine, herbst, another confederate statues has come down in Richmond Virginia the state's Speaker of the House ordered crews to remove a statue of Robert e Lee and other confederate bus from the state capital behavior from member station. BPM has more the statue of Lee, was located at the spot where he accepted command of the confederate army, eight other bus, celebrating the confederacy were also sprinkled around Virginia's old house of Delegates Chamber. It's where the confederate Congress I met in eighteen, sixty one democratic delegate Jay Jones, a member of the black caucus often walk by the room during legislative sessions, certainly disappointing for for many. Virginia's like me to have to see that. Day In and day out in a statement Democratic Speaker of the House Eileen Filler corn called the artifacts, painful reminder of the deep-rooted wounds of slavery, shown creating a commission to decide what to do with them now and how to fill the space. They've left for NPR news I'm Ben you're in Richmond. Meanwhile, in Chicago Statue of Christopher Columbus. The scene of chaotic protests was taken down early this morning video posted. A social media shows a large crane removing the statue, although it's not clear where it is now, this comes as president. Trump threatened to send federal troops to the city after a protest around that statue erupted. Senate Republicans will not unveil their proposal for the latest pandemic relief package this week after all and pure Susan. Davis reports there are ongoing divisions between the White House and Republicans over what it should include Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell had planned unveil his bill Thursday morning. The plans quickly changed. The administration has requested additional time. To review the fine details. But. We will be laying down this proposal early next week. We have an agreement in principle on the shape. Of the package says it will include more money for schools, small businesses, testing, and a second round of direct payments to Americans and their families. Republicans remain divided over what to do with. Expanded unemployment benefits will run out next week. Susan Davis NPR news. Washington tensions between the US and China are rising after the trump administration order China close its consulate in Houston. Beijing now ordering the USTA US rather to close its consulate in Chengdu and here's Fang has more US China. Relations are worse point in over thirty years, and how this relationship proceeds will depend largely on what the US chooses to do in the next four months in the run-up to the November presidential elections in China the approach is. Trump is playing up its anti-china rhetoric to play his voter base, and the hope is that after the presidential elections he will calm down a little bit, and that's in part why they chose the US consulate in Chengdu to close down, and not a bigger consulates such as America's Hong Kong or Shanghai Consulate. NPR's Emily Fang Wall. Street is trading lower at this hour. The Dow is down one hundred ten points the Nasdaq down one, hundred, fifty seven. This is NPR news. Goldman Sachs says agreed to pay three point nine billion dollars to the Malaysia government NPR's Jim Zarroli reports that money will go to resolve charges against the bank over the troubled investment fund one MD.. Goldman will pay two and a half billion dollars to Malaysia and also said it would guarantee the return of some of the Fund's assets. The bank helped raise money for one MD. be a sovereign wealth fund controlled by the Malaysian government. Much of the money allegedly went into Shell. Companies controlled by corrupt government officials among those implicated is Malaysia's former prime. Minister Malaysia has filed criminal charges against the bank and some of its executives for misleading investors. Goldman has consistently denied wrongdoing, but one executive pleaded guilty to bribing Malaysian officials Jim Zarroli NPR news. The spread of the corona virus may have advertisers pulling back on twitter, but not users. The social media company says average daily user growth jumped thirty four percent in the second quarter, the largest rise in users ever recorded by twitter. Age. League baseball is back the defending World Series Champs. The Washington nationals host the New York Yankees and DC last night with no fans in attendance. In instead sound effects are being used to simulate humans in the sands for TV and radio broadcasts. Teams will play sixty games this season rather than the traditional one hundred sixty two games. Wall Street is trading lower. The Dow is down about four tenths of a percent. The Nasdaq is down nearly one and a half percent. I'm Janine herbst NPR news.

NPR US Malaysia Janine herbst Goldman Sachs Trump China Susan Davis NPR Richmond Virginia Robert e Lee Chengdu confederate army Jim Zarroli Democratic Speaker Senate twitter Jay Jones