20 Episode results for "Cleveland State"

Exceptional and Affordable Home Care for Medically Frail Children with Fred Johnson, President & CFO at Team Select Home Care

Outcomes Rocket

27:00 min | Last month

Exceptional and Affordable Home Care for Medically Frail Children with Fred Johnson, President & CFO at Team Select Home Care

"Hey outcomes rocket listeners know podcast no problem launch, a professional podcast. You'll love and four weeks. The most people hire production companies to edit and distribute content that sounds bad and does nothing for their revenue or their network. But you could turn the key to a made to order podcast and skip all the pitfalls that make ninety percent of shows discontinue. After five episodes. We've got the expertise, the elbow grease, and you're back on this one visit smooth podcasting dot com to learn more at smooth podcasting and dot com to learn more. Welcome back to the outcomes rocket today I have the pleasure of hosting Fred Johnson. He's the president of team select homecare and his passion about making the world a better place for medically fragile children and their families. A large portion of Fred's career has been devoted to driving innovation and data analytics. He completed his undergraduate studies and business from the University of Wisconsin Madison and. From Cleveland State University and an advanced certificate in data analytics from Cornell University Fred and team select are pioneering new home care models for medically fragile children. Save State Medicaid organizations, millions of dollars per year while also driving eighty to ninety five percent reductions, hospitalizations, and hospital expenses. I'm excited for today's talk had a chance to connect with Fred previously and just incredible work that they're doing and It's going to be a treat for for everybody listening to hear some. Of the insights so Fred, such a pleasure to have you here with us today. Thank you so much salt really excited to be here. Absolutely. So so you know you guys are doing some brilliant work and I mean your your career history is fascinating and just the way that you do things in general we before we dive into the meat and bones of what you guys are doing at team select tell me a little bit about what inspires your work in healthcare. Interesting healthcare was was really a second career for me in my in my early forties or so after spending a couple of decades with three, different large multi billion dollar global aerospace defense, manufacturing type companies, and and relocated. So many times moved all over the globe that lifestyle became a little difficult on on my family, and so getting into healthcare was was really kind of a plans lifestyle change looking to really improve some. Work Life, balance, you know cyclical business you know really do something fun and interesting and are in a smaller company and really team up with my best friend from Grad. School and the founder of team select Mike Level and you know it really took me a minute to define my passion within the business and I ended up by me within our pediatric business, which is our business around providing nursing care for Medicare fragile children. In their families. So we provide that care for them in the home. So these children can can spend their time living out their days at home versus in a in a hospital or clinical setting, and until I join gene select, they're really had no idea of the struggles and difficulties that these families face. It's kind of an invisible ovulation to the vast majority of Americans and lamented fragile remains is children require frequent blower around the clock skilled nursing. So these children are usually medically complex There's usually elements of technology often times, ventilator feeding tubes, and other. Sorts of complex care. So with with this population, these children are either cared for in hospitals or skilled nursing facilities, which is very expensive that's usually a solution around three to ten thousand dollars a day or more. Ideally, which everybody agrees with is these trolls drink often times cannon should be cared for in the home for a few hundred dollars a day they're leveraging technology advancements as well as having a skilled nursing workforce that can take care of these children in the home. The challenge was that with the preferred least expensive model which. Is carrying for these children in the home is that mostly chair for these children comes from the State Medicaid budgets, and so this is no surprise to anybody you know people in Medicaid all work hard WanNa do the right things wants to take care of these children as bad as anybody does but due to decades of funding challenges, the Medicaid reimbursement rates meaning what Medicaid pace homecare agencies like team select in order to provide that daily nursing care that these children need in order to frankly survive and thrive at home those reimbursement rates depending on the states. In general have been pretty flat for almost forty years. So you know rising way less than one percent a year not keeping up with inflation etcetera. So the the challenge with that is most people in healthcare. No, we've got a pretty big nursing shortage. We had it well before cove it and it was highly acute and now Bianco vid or postcode bid or during Ovid it's it's made a significantly worse. So what that means is it's very difficult to find and retain nurses that specialize in this type of pediatric homecare because we have to find them willing to. Work, for significantly less than they can earn in a hospital or clinic setting where the payments are much higher in the margins are stronger. So the result is that many of these kids and families don't get the consistent homecare a nursing that their child needs. So that results to these children being stuck in hospitals or skilled nursing facilities like I mentioned at three to ten thousand dollars a day or more likely. It means that a parent or parents are stuff trying to care for these children at home with little or no training or supervision in that results in. is a divorce rate of about eighty percent for medically fragile families, and that's due to the physical stress. The emotional stress the financial stress you haven't had a vacation in a in a decade because your child's traits invented in the living room of your one bedroom apartment So spouses end up arguing over all those things and the worst elements of it is because the the nursing care is either non-existent or sporadic for many of these families because of the low reimbursement rates means low salaries and only be offered to the nurses to do this type of care. And so that means is a lot of the time. These shifts don't get filled or the nurse doesn't show up and what that means is the spouses or the parents arguing over who's going to put their career at risk next by calling into sick work again for the fifth day in a row or the fourth time in three weeks, and they end up losing their jobs because they can't consistently work outside at home, and then they end up on food stamps and welfare lot of the time. So so helping these families and developing real world and innovative. But simple solutions as become, you know the main reason I get up every day now and clearly what inspires me to keep working as hard as I do in healthcare the one piece that didn't come through was the work life balance I still searching for that, but helping families has has definitely given me the inspiration to frankly work harder than I've ever worked right now. Yeah, Fred Well, you know you you have identified a huge problem and you know this population of of of kids needing help the families providing the care struggling eighty percent divorce rate. I mean the reenforcement rates are flat. You know just tough to retain nurses talked to us about what you guys are doing to solve for this mismatch and resources of time and demand in care that these kids are needing. Spent twenty years of my professional career telling every employee ever managed that there's no such thing as a silver bullet solution in healthcare business or life. But in this case, this is about as close as it gets There's actually a program that there's no need to reinvent the wheel here thankfully on Colorado implemented a special program about twenty years ago aimed at this exact. Problem and it. It's it's called different things in Colorado. You hear sometimes the parents in a program, we call it the family CNA program others call it the related caregiver program. But really what we learned about these children and what Colorado learned is that it's it's not the level of care that drives the cost down of these kids and improves the outcome. So what it? Means is it doesn't necessarily matter whether you send an rn or an lpn restored nurse or licensed practical nurse or whether you you you you send a CNA for some of those lower acuity children and by CNA we're talking a certified nursing assistant would the data shows? It's not necessarily what level of clinician you send in, but the consistency of care that those children receive. And there's a direct correlation between the consistency of the care and the lower cost and the lower hospitalization and better if a healthcare outcomes for these children. So historically, almost every state than Colorado if a child qualifies for Private Duty Nursing could be somewhere as you as a few hours twenty four hours a day. Every state basically says you either get a registered nurse or Or you get nothing and what's interesting on that is if you look at the typical care plan for one of these children, if you look at the majority hours that the nurses taking care of that child, there's generally only depending on the acuity of the child. If the child is is has a trade can an event that trade needs to be changed each day and some sectioning performed, which is definitely a task you want done by our in an LPN and but the rest of the tasks generally are lower acuity. In, some cases you know very lightly skilled type of care like owl, Jair, G. Tube feedings, advanced personal care bathing assistance would activities of daily living, and so a Colorado did is what most healthcare providers do in in most clinical settings, which is to match the level of care with the appropriate level and cost of a clinician, and so a Colorado basically does what what team select us and and a lot of competitors in Colorado do the same is we'd take that child in that plan of care and we evaluated and we look and we see and what we find is that often times were able to free up valuable nurses which are. The most precious commodity and all of healthcare right now because of the the the lack of supply and over demands and basically free of those nurses to maybe work on a handful of cases of different children doing the the higher acuity tasks and we'd take parents and family members we generally, and again most of the time a lot of time these are single parents who've unfortunately ended up on food stamps and welfare. Because of the situation we will train them for free to become CNA's. It's basically about one hundred twenty hours of classroom and clinical training and will take those lower acuity items on the care plan like the ones. That I mentioned and will transfer those those hours, those visits and shifts over to the parent What we get as a result is the state of Colorado gets to save thirty to forty percent on every single our work that we replace of nurse with a CNA were training people for free for the country's fastest growing job, which is certified nursing assistants or home health aides. We pay them a very solid ways, which is usually enough to lift them in the family off of welfare and food stamps over saving the states a lot of money there as well. I. If they were more than thirty hours a week, we give them in their. Entire family full benefits package the same benefits package that Armand a full four, one K. etc. So really what we're doing is really just matching the level of care with the appropriate level of clinician and then freeing those nurses up to work more at the higher end of their licenses, promote them and move them into more supervisory roles. So at the end of the day, the states end up saving tons of money the families end up in a better position both financially and their mental health. The child wakes up to a loving smiling happy face every day instead of a stranger or no nurse at all, and so it's really hard to find. Too many or any real challenges with this program and the results really positive for themselves. Well, I think it's a phenomenal program. You know what? What parent if they're already doing the work and they want to see their child do better wouldn't WanNa just contribute and get paid for it while they're doing right? Exactly. Exactly. When we call his program practical innovation, it's a solution that's really been there this whole time but outside of Colorado, it's kind of people we're not really looking at it from the. Right Angle you know and generally speaking the reality is, is that no one takes better care of their child than a parent or a loved one, and so now in know with decades of data in Colorado, it really supports the fact that the cost is lowest and the patient outcomes are best when these children get the same consistent care they need every day they get the bowel care they need daily. So they remain infection free and out of the hospital same thing for nutrition and feeding it's when. Those things don't happen every day with the traditional private duty nursing model because of the reimbursement rate in nursing shortage that when those nurses are non-existent, don't show up that those children bounce in and out of the hospital. So it's again it's it's really focusing on parent who never calls in sick never misses a shift provides that that at strong care to that child every single day, and then we end up with with amazing amazing outcomes at a significantly lower cost of it and you guys given. That you're doing the training and providing the support, you get to bill. Medicaid directly to pay for the the families providing the care and everybody wins correct yet and So yes. So we you know Medicaid like I mentioned earlier instead of paying us you know you know somewhere in the high forty dollars now where they can pay us in the low thirties to high twenty dollars an hour and save money on basically with each hour that replace but you know that that continuity of care. To outcomes for just a quick second, the outcomes that we really get here with these children are staggering and so these children represents about one percents of any state's Medicaid 's pediatric ovulation. But that one percents of those children account account for more than forty percents of Medicaid pediatric. So the rate of forty, two one compared to a non medically fragile child of that forty percent only two percent of that is spent on home care and the other ninety, eight percents of that cost that spent on these medically fragile children. Is mostly spent on the hospitalizations. So so going back to the claim, I made earlier about the cost in the outcomes driven by the continuity of care not the level of care he the national hospitalization average for these children as eighteen point, three percent we've treated over a thousand of these children with this model in the past year in Colorado in the in the entire year, only one point, six percent of our children ended up in hospital at any point in time. So that's a ninety one and. Ninety one and a half percent reduction in hospitalizations in when we know that the hospitalizations are the majority of the cost than the savings here in addition to the hours worked in training people for free and getting people off of welfare and food stamps and giving a benefit packages. You know it's my belief that were saving the state of Colorado, and then future states who implemented this you know either tens of millions or in some cases, maybe hundreds of millions of dollars and at a time of cove it right now Wednesdays desperately need savings and we desperately need these children safe at home out away from hospitals away from. Doctors Offices as a child under then delayed, or that's already medically fragile If they end up in a hospital and catch covid, it's It's most likely going to be an impossible type situation and have very bad outcome. So so we're really trying to push this program even harder right now at a time of bit because of the of the savings, as well as the safety, it enables by keeping these kids safe at home, and if we can leverage parents father the time instead of nurses in stop the flow of so many nurses in and out of the home. Then that also keeps these children more safe Is another disease and I think that's wonderful. Fred and so folks if you have questions you should definitely visit Fred and his team's website team select home-care t, S H C DOT COM fred guys don't are operating in in many states now I, guess the states are seeing the benefits outside of Colorado as well. Yes. So you know this is been About two. Of Myself in the company, a team select lobbying in the background for for these families what we've realized is that it takes it takes an army of people. So we begun to to to really launch more of National Public Relations kind of campaign, and we're just at the beginning of that were were forming alliances with other home care companies in a lot of nonprofit groups at what we've been able to accomplish outside of Colorado is this program was. Approved in and actually our own state where we're headquartered in in Arizona and that was approved legislatively about a year ago unfortunately, with covid and in Medicaid resources being scarce we are still working closely with with Arizona Medicaid to bring this program to market. Our hope is to have that before this calendar year is out and but we definitely could use some. Some urging of other stakeholders similarly we had to pass legislation after trying to work with the state of Missouri for a couple of years implemented. Eventually, we put through legislation had this program legislatively approved and we're currently working with them to also bring this program to market. Hopefully, within the next couple of months, the biggest area right now is is the health plan. For the active military is called tribe here, and there are a lot of active military unfortunately with medically fragile children that that makes it very difficult for those servicemembers to be relocatable by being need to be close to to children's hospitals makes it very difficult or impossible for the spouse to work outside the home. So we are working with the armed services. Committee and Seeking to bring this program to active military nationally through the the trike here benefit we are We definitely need a little bit more help to for people out there to to help demonstrate the need, but we know that the military in every government budget could definitely use cost savings at a time like this we know this program would deliver that we also be training Spouses for free giving them employment opportunity while saving you know the the the government, quite a bit of money there. So we can make military families stronger or relocatable, and frankly happier in making sure they get the care that their children need. So were currently looking to multiple other states new. Jersey's to stay ahead, we've been trying to work with for a couple years to try to get this program through. So the good news is it's happening. The problem is is it's happening to slow to a lot of the. A lot of the red tape, which is, which is why we're really trying to get the word out now and and really get some more followers and people that can kind of join with us on this on this fight and would you say that's one of the biggest setbacks you guys have had is just the the the adoption has been slow. Yeah. It really is. You know we've had I think six governors that we've spoken to Republican and Democrat and they all of it and and you know what's not to love. The challenges is that you know they kinda throw it over the wall and say, okay, go work with my Medicaid director and and tell me wanted implemented and and do the resource constraints budget constraints even though we don't need any budget dollars for this, we only deliver savings, but it's just been hard with different types of regulations different little rules here and there, and the red tape is really slowed things down quite a bit and that's where you know I just kind of had the the android dialogue with myself and the team select team that you know we gotta we gotta make this more of a national problem and And you know if not us then who and So the good news is this just in the past few weeks when we really have been trying to start to get the word out, we're starting to begin to generate quite a bit of momentum. So my hope is that you know five to ten years from now every state will have a program like this and hopefully Arizona Missouri and and maybe even New Jersey and try care can can really help get started in a lot of other states begin to follow. Yeah. Love it. Well, it's certainly a phenomenal work that you've dedicated yourself to and the team select. Team has also dedicated themselves to what would you say you're you're most excited about today so I think you know quite honestly this is the first podcast. I've ever done some just excited to be kicking off in. The move down this down this program I think the you know the things I'm probably most excited about. This is probably try care opportunity just for. A chance to to help that many military families You know who who've been you know had to deal with this with this difficult burden in in their lives. So you know. I, think I think. The biggest thing is I'm unhappy that you know something like fielded. which you know doesn't have a long silver linings but that you know it really took something like this I think to enable a program like this and to get people to start to listen and and I'm just really excited about the level of interest and support that we're starting to kind of receive with with competitors putting aside and competitive differences. And Coming Together along with nonprofit groups and families for the best what's in the best interest of these children? So to me, it feels like this is just the beginning and them I'm excited about where we're going to be a few months from now especially years now. Yeah. That's certainly exciting and and we're rooting for you guys and so everybody listening. For sure is a hard one not to get behind. It really is, and you know Fred when you reached out to tell me about this I just said, wow. Yeah let's do this. So I am so great clutch and I'm grateful for the work that you guys are doing because it's an uphill battle but you know what you guys are getting wins and it's exciting. You were going to say something they human yet we're just gotTA refusing to give up so we've been. So many times. We're not going anywhere and appreciate you given that website address not s H. C, Dot Com at the top of that page there's a there's a button. That says family CNA program and so if anybody listens to this and wants to get in touch with us our beyond our books for to receive more information or anything you can click on that family CNA program button scroll to the bottom there's a place to log your information and pretty soon in the next couple of weeks will have a place for for families with medically fragile children to put their information in whether it be in Colorado or Missouri or Arizona and and seek to see if your children your child and you or your spouse or other family members qualify take art of this program going forward I love. It. That's such. A great call to action. If you or somebody you know falls into one of those three states and wants to spread the word. Now's the time. Just go to the website as we as we shared with you it's T. S. H. C., and at the top link is very clear family CNA program scroll down and you'll see all the other info and away to get in touch with the team. So Fred I truly appreciate the work you guys doing the insights that you've shared. Why don't you go ahead and leave us with closing thought and then we'll We'll say goodbye you know I think my closing thought is. Because, you don't, you don't see these children every day in these families because most of the time they're stuck inside their homes, but they do exist the problem has never been more acute than it is now. So if you can help in any way I'm frankly human if you're if you're a competitor of ours fewer existent in a state that were not in yet please. Go to that website get in touch with me. Gogel me on online Fred Johnson team selector, Fred Johnson family CNA you can find me also out on link and even if there's no business benefit in this for you know for my company, we will be there to to help support anybody that would like to make a run at this in looking to bring this program to whatever state that they live or operating, plummet, and So take. Him Up on it folks Fred Info will be on the podcast show notes linked to his linked in profile and any other way that he wants you to connect with them. So make sure you check out the show notes just go to the website outcomes rock that health type then team select, and you'll see the the entire show notes a transcript and most importantly how to get in touch with Fred Fred just brilliant my friend I really. Wanted to say, thank you again for sharing the outstanding work that you guys are up to the. Thank you so much. So I know this this this podcast is going to get out there and hit a few people and then just giving me this opportunity is is bound to help a handful of families and probably a lot more completely changed the trajectory of their lives so I can't thank you enough. Hey, everyone saw Marquez here have. You launched your podcast already and discovered what a pain and could be to keep up with editing production show notes transcripts and operations. What if you could turn over the keys to your podcast busy work while you do the fun stuff like expanding your network and taking the industry stage let us edit your first episode for free. So you can experience the freedom visit smooth podcasting dot COM to learn more that smooth podcasting. Dot Com. To learn more.

Colorado Fred Fred Medicaid CNA Fred Johnson Arizona Dot Com University of Wisconsin Madiso CNA Fred Well Cornell University Cleveland State University president Fred I Fred Info Missouri physical stress Private Duty Nursing founder
Bill Gentry on Careers, Networking, Political Skill, and Leadership

The Indigo Podcast

1:08:42 hr | 2 months ago

Bill Gentry on Careers, Networking, Political Skill, and Leadership

"Welcome to the INDIGO PODCAST and exploration of human flourishing at work in beyond I'm Ben Baron of INDIGO, Anchor and Cleveland State University, and I'm for seven of indigo anchor for more information. Please visit us at www dot indigo podcasts dot, com? So today. We have the wonderful honor to have built gentry on the podcast this. Great to have bill on the PODCAST say hi bill. I'm really excited to be your. Thank you so. This is going to be great. So quick intro on Bill Gentry Bill Gentry, leadership researcher trainer, Speaker Author, and industrial organizational psychologists with a specialty of helping new and aspiring leaders. He's currently the assistant vice president of career and professional development at high point university, which is in high point North Carolina, which is, of course, of course, of course, the home furnishings, hosiery capital of the world. Ends. And before that bill was a senior research scientists trainer and director at the Center for creative leadership. A top ranked global provider of executive education and leadership development. He's an accomplished researcher with research interests that are wide and broad within this umbrella of leadership, and so forth. He's publishing more than fifty peer reviewed publications. He's been featured in more than fifty internet news articles such as Forbes Dot Com the Wall Street Journal CNN.com. Harvard, business, review chief learning officer, and much more. He's author of bestselling book. Be The boss everyone wants to work for a guide for new leaders which will certainly touch on quite a bit here. Today and bill holds a PhD in industrial organizational psychology from the University of Georgia. So bill here's a formal welcome to the INDIGO podcast. Well, thank you on I've listened to you all since day one. So this is really on. Are you are you? I'm. I'm the one who's listening to. Talk whenever I see someone say hey I read your book and said, Oh you're the one actually From Amazon. tastic. Well, you know it really is a pleasure to have you and even if you were not a listener. Fight you on here because you have deep expertise and wonderful insights to share with the world so. I guess a place to start with you. Bill is tell us about your current role at high point university. What do you do and what do you find exciting about what you do? Yeah. This is this role is something that I never thought imaginable when I was in college when I was in graduate school when I was, you know ten years out of graduate school. But what I'm doing here at high point university know every university or college and most of my kids. Has Probably, some sort of department they might notice career services. That is and so our office infants development. Now, our mission is educating empower all students to translate experiential learnings. Professional world is going to be as what we do day in and day out. So art team helps students with. Things that you might think about normally like how do you make a great resume or you know we get students who come in my parents? Told me a resume? Can you tell me what that is? Let's say it's a resume and yes, we can help. Cover, letters linked in profiles what what the heck do I need to do with my life I was in college I was premed for six weeks 'cause my Filipino mother told me. I was going to be a doctor and I had to be. So when you figure out that this isn't really fun you know what career can I have with this major or I to change majors or what major should I have? What career should I help with major exploration and career exploration we do all sorts of really great assessments that actually are from a bunch of I, O psychologists and it's all kind of melded together there to really help you know with whatever profile you have based on these assessments, these types of crews on own at the best fit for you. That's thing. mock interviews and then we do Grad School research and applications help people for internship searches, internship jobs, The the light there, and then also since I came in really wanted to up our game in terms of offering certain seminars or workshops. So it's not just how do you build a great resume but how do you resolve conflicts and how do You give and receive feedback How do you influence others? How do you communicate well those are all things that I wanted to make sure their office was able to do for our students here at high point, university. So let me let me interject this. If you're somebody that's going to university Grad School, it doesn't matter and they don't have a career development office don't go there. and. Then second, right look where. Bill, you got peers in this place. How many of them have an I o site background like you have In my office zero nobody and other career development offices like university. Yeah Colleen. That's a good question. Other universities It's not a traditional career track. I think for an Iowa psychologists two goats. I. I'M GONNA say next to none. Probably and the and the reason why is because I talked to friends that have their kids coming out they're coming out of college and like Oh my gosh his a numskull in highschool. He barely made it past the cup. Hey, go talk to this and they're not getting any support. I've seen some of them like well, we put together a resume book to hand potential employers. I don't know of a single employer that looks at tag on resume books. Well, it's all I wouldn't say it's mostly these a sort of computers that look through and if your resume does not match the qualifications in the skills in the case as the job post has, it's not even getting to Ersan averages six seconds of looking at it in the first place. So it's gotTa get past that applicant tracking system in the first place, which is a you know that that thing exists does your resume match all of the different? As case as before in if it doesn't, it doesn't even get passed on to a person. So you don't even have a shot at getting. So a getting an interview. So you know we tell our students don't spray and pray don't spray that one resume in prayer you're going to get. You've got to tailor your resume to every single job post in you have and more importantly since eighty percent of the jobs out there are never posted you've got to network like crazy. And networking is so important. Yeah. Yeah. So so you should look for I mean. They're lucky to have you bill I mean the amount on sanity that you can bring as far as like insanity as far as intellectual capability evidence based practice to conducting a job search and building your career, and that's why that's why we bring people like you on here you know. So. Yeah. So what do you like most about that kind of a ray of things that you get to do from from the changing the resume resume to? While the the actual you know. Kind of leadership development type work that you're doing with some of these workshops and so forth. What's the most exciting piece about what's the most rewarding part about your job? Well, when I when I was in graduate school I was trying to figure out what I WANNA do with my life I loved I o Psych when I actually discovered a senior in college and then I got to Uga I was I thought go to consulting. That's where all the money goes to I wanna be rich all those things. And then I thought will go into teaching because you know I played golf with my professors of often during graduate school I think what helped me get integrators will need a fourth. That was summers off and then as you come to find out professors don't have quote Unquote Summers. But Research and trying to help people be the best that they can be. That's what really turned me onto what I can do fly career. That's why I love being center for creative leadership. I was able to do the research is able to translate that research impractical actual content that leaders can use and yes. The the Journal thing for the academic side of things. But I also want to see how can the everyday person who has to be in their cubicle or their office or right now in their Home Office. Can we help them be better and so how can we translate all that knowledge of the things that they can do in the moment in the now and that's why I love doing a see sail training programs there and designing programs there and and helping people to do that and being a. On the more director side helping the team that I lead, you know be more successful. That was something that really turned me onto what I could do to. For my own career and now at highpoint, I could do all those things and instead of focusing on thirty to retirement age, I can do it to eighteen to twenty two year olds who have the next fifty plus years of their at a while and bring them understand that you have a chance to set the world on fire and let's get you to a place to do that when you get out and graduate from High Point University and that's a really cool thing to see student go from. One of the one of the first students I've ever worked with he was a use a sophomore at the time. He'd never had an internship before he had of mock interview with one of these local organizations that helps young kids preschool age do. And he had never had a real interview before I had a mock interview with him and just to see how he grew up and then graduated this past summer and he had an awesome internship with a highly recognized consulting firm. In Florida and he did so well, if that consulting firm, they offered him a full-time job on the spot a year before he grabbed now. So just to see that sort of transformation for that for that, you know one student that I had but I see that multiple times not just for me but with my team who does that every single minute of every single day? That's a pretty cool thing to be part of. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's that's phenomenal. You know I'm actually reminded as you're talking about this of my wife's. Grandfather and so he was an educational psychologist and he started joined the Faculty of John Carroll University up in Cleveland in nineteen forty nine and he was on the faculty there for decades upon decades actually until he died. A handful of years ago, and what was fascinating was he did a lot of work kind of similar to what you do He worked with students try to help them figure out where they wanted to go and their lives and so forth and. What was amazing is that you know when he passed away and even as he was kind of you know getting toward that point in his life in his older years just hit the people coming out of the woodwork saying, thank you. You know people in their forties and fifties and maybe even a little older saying you know I talked to Dr Nozzle back in whenever and he really helped me out. I can just imagine this really rewarding and we'll be. For you as you you in this path. Yeah, and I've had students reach out to be. Just to say thanks or update me on where they are and I've been here almost three years now I've had almost full cycle of freshman senior still got a year or two more to get that. Now even the even the folks who just stopped in my office once they found something. That's pretty yeah. Got Organizations need to grab hold of some of your passion bill because it's really about that next generation of leadership we always renew our talent pathways, our thoughts, and then I love how you're talking about the passion because a lot of people say, well, the youth are just passionate naive, right? They're gonNA crash and be another. COG or out there but that's not true. Ways to do it in our university I. Think really if you think about you know we we call ourselves a Premier Life Skills University. We are just really focused on just what you learn in the classroom, which is important theories you learn and what you learn that classroom. But also how do you Li- that to the professional role? whether you do go on to graduate school professional school or law school or medical school, or you get that job or an internship or your volunteer opportunity where do you going to learn going to help set yourself heart? you know and then. You're Kinda. Introducing me know my passion has been around helping people. Be Better leaders especially if you've never led before and we all know. Been Leadership Position we've seen someone be part of go into that leadership position. It is one of the difficult most of things you're ever going to do percents. So I want to help for our students here I want to help prepare them for. Hey, the this is the reality of was going to be like if you want to lead you and part of it is not. The youth that. These eighteen twenty olds they have such great. Big Dreams they want to do I mean, I, talked to that I'm also director of the Siegfried leadership fellows program here. So I get ice we got the best of the best of of these students who want to actually focus on leadership for the four years that they're here and we built a program for them to do that. And some of these students they're like they have their head on straight as an eighteen year old and they know exactly what they're going to do, and some of them are like Y'all want the Corner Office when I'm twenty two years old and you know I want all these. Okay. Let's talk about what the realities are and if that's really what you want, it's GonNa take. Some time. It's GonNa take some effort and you can do it but it's not going to happen. As soon as you graduate believe me and you're not gonNA get a six figure salaries who's you graduate with a company car and and the Corner Office and gold-plated toilet and all those things it's it's not gonNA happen most of the time. Yeah and besides go play toilets are out. I. got. Somebody stole the museum. I can't remember what? Enron. Got Them All. That's passion coupled with discipline and facts. You know if you come into college your full of passion, you can't wait to set the world on fire. Well, Hey, let's put gas on that. You don't need to lose your passion. You're. GonNa have to get these extra. I mean we're talking with Todd do it on a podcast and it was these kids will be like, okay. I'm going to apply to some NGOs overseas and work on big problems like you know starvation or something, and they don't have the education or skill set yet but the answer needs to be stopped being so passionate no, that's the wrong answer. The right answer is. Let's put some gas on that passion and put some discipline and knowledge with it. So you can actually do something such join a pleasure to work with student who wants to be helped and his proactive and wanting to work, and that's when whenever ARC team worse than a student we know whether that student has been here because our parents have told him or if they really want to be and it's just a joy to work with all of our students. particularly. The ones that want to be ear and we'll put in the work to do whatever it takes is awesome. Yeah. Students you know one thing that you mentioned here that I think is really useful and important is this idea of you know what we would call in in Iowa Psychology Realistic Job Preview and you've got a mentioned it as I. I believe I'm if I'm remembering it your how you brought this is rolled off your tongue you said. That you in your role, you're very interested in translating experiential learning into the world as is and I. Think. That's a really great way to put it and. How do you? What's what's kind of your overall approach if you've got a new student? Perhaps who? Comes into your office and just kind of stumbles in there and says, Hey, Dr, gentry. Oh, you're the you're the you're the guy running this place. What what how should I approach? You Know Career Development here I am a freshman a sophomore maybe and I want to be thinking a little bit more long-term What should I be thinking about informational interviews and networking are the two biggest things particularly for younger students that they can do right now Informational interview can give you so much information about, hey, if I want to be an accountant, what is that on a day to day basis? Colleges what does that even mean? Before you spit out with a masters PhD. To. Get into a job and you're like Oh my God. Sooner you can figure that out whether hey, I feel like I can do this on a day in day out basis or not better on the and with those information interviews, you can ask me things about advice and we tell our students these things are you're not trying to ask for job internship internship you're asking for advice, people the the the one thing that people doing talk about is themselves so. If. You're able to have a fifteen twenty minute conversation about, Hey, can you tell me how you got into this position was sort of education? Did you need you what you do? What do you like doing what you like about your job? What you eight about job know what sort of advice would you give an eighteen year old about getting into this industry are getting into this career getting into this organization That can be so valuable to students right now, and actually if you think about it F, we just had the numbers just came out that we had just the worst economic contraction ever, and we've got what ten million or ten. PERCENT UNEMPLOYMENT THIRTY MILLION UNEMPLOYED. Doesn't matter how you are these informational interviews can help and we tell our students what a great way to introduce yourself linked in. You. Know when when I was a college student, we didn't have linked in you'd have to like call people or we barely had email. Archaic type email with Lipton. Now, you could literally. Ask someone on the other side of the world to have a fifteen minute conversation about their career. You can literally ask the CEO of a company whether they have fifteen minutes if they don't hey, it's okay. But at least you gotta try tell students. If you think about baseball the the the hall of Fame Folks Missed Seven out of ten times at all. So if you're able to get just a couple people out at ten to reply and. Say Yeah I wouldn't mind heaven fifty minutes to talk to you about that what a great opportunity for eighteen to twenty or anyone to reach out to people who they want to know. So information reason than just by the fact of the reaching out your networking, not come to know that networking saw -portant You know I'm I'm a really great. Fan of Adam grants work in the whole give and take book that he's He, has a lot of his research that he has networking as part of that research networks part of my research to and so I just believe that again as we talk about four seventy to eighty percent of the jobs are never posted it's gotten through your. Networks. It's gotten through a I just found out that this person's leaving is not even posted yet. I know who you are. We just had a fifteen minute conversation. You might be really good fit for this talk to my hr person and then get in that's how it works and that's how it works really well, and if students are able to. Anyone. Able to think about it in that way, and networking is not A. You know ground nosing but kissing type of thing a way to say that get as many people on linked in as many friends on. Network. About likes. Yes. There snapface the antisocial. So what is networking then bill? It's not it's not harassing people, right? It's not gathering a bunch of followers what's networking networking for me is an opportunity for me to understand how can help other people and that's kind of how I tried to help. students were anyone talk about understand the importance of it? It's you know it is part of it. How can they help you but I try to go about his how can I help them? With with anything and so if I'm an eighteen year old student, I'm trying to network one of the things I might WanNa, think about his how might not be able to help them now and Adam talks about this in his work networking marathon not a sprint they might be able to help you now, but you will definitely be able to help them later maybe you can help them now it's not you can help them later you can help them five years from now ten years from now. War You're going to be in a position where fifteen twenty years from now, you're going to have eighteen to twenty year old student asking you the same thing that you're doing. So you'd be able to give back in that way and networking. So in that case, networking for me, I just Kinda some up is, how can I be of service and helped other people in their time of need and so being able to understand it and an enhanced my network both Are Our strong ties. Ner weeks is other people that we have. If you're able to do that, you're going to have a really strong type of network and the work that I know about networking in terms of what networks look like for effective leaders I get this from Kristen Colin. Lester who was a friend of mine she worked with me seal now she's she used to be at the university Houston Bisco thing she just went to Ole miss now. A Mississippi, in their business school, her research and a lot of others in the networking literature really focus on three things in my book call it. Your network has to be odd and when I talk about odd, it's not strange or weird odd is stands for open diverse in deep. So you want your network to be open you want your network to be diverse you want to be deep. if you can have your network, be those three things as a leader, you're going to be really powerful in terms of the type of great work that you can do in collaboration with others at your organization, or at your nonprofit or at your place of worship whatever you know leader role that you. Right. So but if you're eighteen twenty years old. And you WANNA take all open diverse deep plummet Tina I'm just starting to this network, right? What. I don't have a whole lot of skills to offer what are some ways for a young person has to begin that network churning. The first way from me in because I'm I'm more introverted than extroverted and it's Really really difficult for students. Especially, if you're eighteen or nineteen, you've been had down in your work all your life and and that's kind of how how you've been and you're you're not the extroverts person. Start just start just make an effort in start That's the best thing that you can do. The other thing that's all people is you have one or two go questions that. Allow people to open up and talk and I usually say it's not a yes no question more of A. Tell me. Why are you? So passionate about your job tell me something that you love doing about your job. What's a? What's a really great thing that you're looking forward to this week in your job? That will get people to open up and Talk Kim because they love talking about themselves. It just be prepared to have the answer to that question too. 'cause they're probably going to come back to using well, how about you? So for me for for students eighteen nineteen, whatever just start go ahead and start and then just build it out, and then you can as you build out your networks, you can then start thinking about my network open close open means that do people in my network not no others in my network A. Closed. Network means everybody knows everybody of everybody knows everybody network you have closed networks need to find people you can bring into your network that don't necessarily know others that you know already. So that's an open network y'all WanNa diverse network, and again you don't want everyone from an organizational standpoint it with a dot a diverse network would be okay if I'm in research I have people my network who are in marketing and sales and an it in operations in all those things but for an eighteen and nineteen year old student diversity. Is are the people my network? Do I look at them and say, okay, are these a diverse set of folks not just in what you see and their social identity or their race or their gender not just that it's above that their values, their beliefs, their their interests, how diverse can you be and then deep you want a deep network you don't just want to know if I'm an eight, thousand, nine, hundred year old dorm room are they in or you? Know, where they from originally, what are their values? What are their strengths? What are their goals in life? That's a deep network so if you can start planning these seeds for yourself to have an open diverse and deep network as college students, once you graduate from whatever institution you're in you've got that off network already those people are going to graduating with you. They're going to be holding the keys to so many things in life for you just not just for advice. Also maybe jobs or opportunities that are there, and you're going to do the same for them as well. You're going to be able to open doors for them to So if you could do that as a as college or university student, once you start working in the world and you have that same mindset, you're going to be able to have these really strong networks that can enable you to do so many great things in your organs. Yeah, those are great points and you know one thing that I sometimes. My Mba students is I. Say you know part of your network is your the person on your right and your left and? It may seem like a distant future but you know you're gonNA Blink and ten years are GonNa go by, and you're all going to be in much senior more seniors positions and you are now and you are going to be able to help each other and here's the thing like no one's going to do something great to help out the person who was crappy on the on the group project yeah. Good. Don't be a tool second college. Right not because cake stands aren't fun which they are okay. Right. Being engaged because when you go to hit. Up they're gonNA remember like when that numskull that was always in his pajamas every day in the class hung over with like some spittle on his. Sleeve. You know. It's it don't don't be that guy be the guy that's interesting engaged and go and for in life with some kind of theme. Kegs. But you gotta be somebody you're showing people your a trusted quantity. Early on. Yeah. Right right and if that's the mindset you have as a eighteen twenty year old, that's on. That will just stay with you for the rest of your life. people will look people will remember and people look up to. You touched on it already but I'd like to pack packing a little bit more. You said, you know this networking thing having an odd odd network as you put, it is very important not only for people who are kind of in this early stage of thinking about their careers starting to get out there and look for jobs. But also for leaders really at every level and you know Chris and I have come across CEOS and we've talked them where they haven't really done that and then then it's like, oh, I don't really know how to resonate ideas with people because I don't really have this or even just resources in the community I need to talk to somebody who knows a lot about this area that I don't and see what they did and that kind of thing, and what are your thoughts there. Yeah as you increase or as you go up the organizational ladder in organizations. It gets lonelier and lonelier. Gets and the higher you get yet granted. You know the CEO technically has formal thorny over every single person she your e you know is looking over. But. Think about as you go up the the hierarchy if you're going to be like a director VP, and on the executive team, you're going to be working with peers who you have no direct authority over and they have their own agendas of what they want to do. You've got your own agendas of what you want to do and if you haven't been able to really. Garner enhance and develop infective network. You're not going to have the ability to work across boundaries and collaborate with people and that's why networking. So important to be able to work across those boundaries and span those boundaries and be able to work with others who don't necessarily have the same vision or idea or or goals that you have may poetically after you. Trying to stab you in the bag. Good. They could and and that's what politically being politically savvy or political skill. likley skilled is really all about the networking is a huge aspect of being politically skilled and being able to to work across and collaborate with people who you have no direct authority over or sometimes how to work up in and collaborate with those who have direct authority over you. how can you do all those things effectively and not be seen as that proverbial snake in the grass swap political savvy and networking, which is part of it is so important I think now organizations to as we get flatter as were working more of virtually I think it's only going to be needed even more. You lose that sense of of when you are with someone across the table or at even like to be someone across the table you know on the same side of the table having a walking meeting so that you actually feel like you're working together on something. You lose that sense of togetherness when you're going to be on zoom video or on a phone call and a lot of organizations. Now I mean, they're saying at least the rest of the year they're going to be like this. So how can we as leaders be able to cultivate our networks NBC politically savvy and actually having known the political savvy or political skills? Actually good things I actually think it's a really good thing that's a great quality your skill to have right up one of the things with new directors right? You just leaving that senior manager manager role He. Actually starting to get some responsibility and now you're more most likely the first time you're super cross functionally and mauled with other directors on your level. Well, how do you know what the guy to your left and right how to interact with them? Well, if you can call your buddy that's in marketing say, Hey, you just stepped into a marketing director role I'm over here in finance, how do I need to work with you and you don't have to expose that lack of knowledge necessarily internal to the organization, but you're able to grab that information from your peers that are outside. Chris that's exactly it. You know I tell especially new leaders. There's nothing in your in your job requisition or or your responsibility says, you need to be a mind reader there's I've never seen one. Two things you do explicitly, and implicitly you do an explicitly just causing a hey. How should we work together? What do you do that explicitly and implicitly? Is Observing. So being highly observant of what people are doing and asking your networks. Hey, you worked with this person. What sort of things do I need to talk about if I want to influence this person? Well, what sort of things do I need to do to be seen a great light with this person? So doing it. Implicitly. It's the same thing I talked with with new managers. It's like when you inherited team or when you're building your own team, you better have a conversation the first week with every single person on your staff saying, okay this is who I am. I, want to know more about you. What are your talents? Why do you come to work every day? What do you love doing on your job? You know, how do you like to be communicated with you want to be included in meetings that sort of thing just get to know them and know what they WANNA do. It will make your life easier going forward and you don't have to read their minds you could just actually. Understand what they want because I'm telling you. So many people just think execs just get this or they just had it Predator naturally what they don't know as they have that diverse network that they're polling like first time. Hey Hey bill, how do I deal I? Just got a call from executive recruiter how does executive recruitment work and they're behind the scenes, building their brains and their assets and their skills up anyway. Yup. I was. So thankful when I stepped into this position here highpoint again, I I went to graduate school like want Geeky researcher I worked at Sanford Critic for almost twelve years quantity researcher trainer. I did all those things. Now I'm here I didn't grow up quote unquote grow up in the education field I know a lot of people in university settings that are in these types of offices have like an add or they went through the education part of right of things. So I was very thankful that through my network on Lincoln for instance and people who knew people in the industry very thankful that when I call us a Hick, I talked to you for thirty minutes for an hour just about how is your team set up? How is your office set up? Their career services that are an office of one, their Career Services Office of twelve in just one school. So it's just it's such a Broadway of gone about Chris, services are but being able to to draw on people who've been in. This was such a huge help for me, and now during this time I might not hurt from from a while now I'm able to. The point where have been hearing this for a couple of years how can I get back and reach out to them? Say, Hey, here's some things doing high. What can we do to help you in terms of what you're thinking about when you might have students who are now not going to be on campus or other programs that were doing that might be able to help you. Spur on other engagement opportunities for your students. So having that network, not just in that organization, but building throughout your strategic relationships, Cathy Cram, who's very knowledgeable about mentor she talks about having developmental networks and strategic relationships. So how can you have these people in your networks that are strategic that are not just in your organization, but in all sorts of different aspects of your life, it's Been Very helpful for me because you never know who they might now, and that's how I've been able to understand more about crew services from people in my network and for people saying, Hey, you need to talk to this person and reaching out to them. Yeah. You know one other thing that I'm curious to get your take on before we go and talk about your book. Explicitly because I really want to do that too. But I just think about careers in general and you know people have a lot of different jobs. The Bureau of Labor Statistics had a report that came out last year, which actually looked at younger baby boomers. So you people who are. Actually older than all of us on this podcast right now are probably. You know, and said that those folks nearly half of them or they had an average of twelve point, three jobs between the ages of eighteen and fifty to nearly half of those were between eighteen and twenty four. So people do change jobs a lot and I would suspect I haven't seen any other data on younger generations but it seems like there's more fluidity now than than there used to be, but there's always been quite a bit of churn but. I I really because when I look at that Ben what he said twelve point three jobs there seems to be this collective social myth that somehow the boomers they got out of college if they went but they didn't have to go to college stayed in a job, they accompany watch and they're. Good. Right. But twelve point three jobs which half of them. So that's basically six jobs between the age of eighteen to twenty four. That's a job a year pretty much. Yeah. I I think we do see a lot of our outgoing students who graduated they are probably late. looking at other jobs. You know that first job out of college what I tell students about what you should do that I on a college. You better be able to learn the most about yourself and learn the most about the world of work in your first job. And then use that knowledge to see okay. Is this a place I want to stay in or after I get I my foundation of Kate this is how the world works, and this is how I can actually function in the world of work. I mean highpoint universities known for its first residents halls. We've got such a beautiful campus. There are other campuses out there that are known for similar things to. Life is not like that. Once you step outside it is not just say. In his everything from even okay. How what's my sleep and how do I get the amount of sleep that I need and what is my routine and how's that going to work as I don't have to go to just two or three classes I might have to go in earlier stay late or on weekends how how does this work? That's why I think internships are so important not just information interviews but internships just to get. The feel of what work is really like in that realistic job review, and if you can get that through information interviews and internships, what a wonderful foundation to have but if you are trying to think about your first job and then you kind of stay in there for a couple years ago and understand, okay, this is how I need to function. This is who I am going to be as professional, and this is how the world. Of Work Works, can I see myself staying in this? Organization for the next ten, fifteen years. Do they see me as someone who was part of the growth of this organization? And, if they don't seem to see that I think when students are in this case. Young professionals start looking at other places. To go right and they should yeah, like they don't listen anybody that says, Hey, buddy you need to take this entry level job and use need to stay here for at least ten years that you know that's not out capitalism works by. Don't you feel guilty. If you've got another opportunity, you've built your skill sets and you can. Hook it up for some more cash get on it. Yeah. You're talking about that. Now I will say that in some of our assessments that we give again, these are all assessments that highly reliable highly valid. there's a place for the N. beat Ti and a lot of career services, the NBA or the focus or these certain things, and there's a place for those. My came in said, that's not the place that I want office to be. I wanted more reliable valid matters and reliable Valdez sessoms. That's syphilis says we have years and years of data and research show that if you have these profiles, these types of jobs from. Let's pause and talk about that for a minute. What for we're not for our listening audience that aren't professionals or what is he EMBIID. Image Myers Briggs type indicator a it's it's a very powerful tool to for people to know and understand their personality is because I heard Myers. Briggs was full of crap. So. First off I am I'm certified to give that tool. Okay and. There is a place for. I just think in my opinion in my humble opinion for our office in Career Services I. Thought that Myers Briggs was not the right place for it. So if you think about how how how people can understand more about themselves so more about self awareness and if you think about maybe teamwork or collaboration or the way that they communicate I, think that could be a really good tool for people to use in that case for selection. No not for data says it's no good for selections right and that's why I wanted. I wanted a platform that we were able to to work with. Were made by AL psychologists are. Pay If you know, this is the profile that you have based on your interest, your values, your personality workless preferences. Now like the some of the big five's issue exactly in fact, the the personality. Assessment that we use on the platform is the hexagon model, which is the big five plus honesty slash humility. Is highly reliable highly valid and Chris to the point that I was. Going to get to one of the values I should say the workplace preferences that I have is stability. I. Value Organization that wants to keep it people and I when I teach my career exploration class here. I tell my students this is the reason why I remember very clearly it was the First Day of summer from college. So I just finished out my freshman year at emory drove home to our Chattanooga my girlfriend at the time was gonNA come visit me for weeks. It was going to be great. You know it's going to be the summer I didn't have I didn't start my internship jobs there and so she was gonna come and we actually get to spend time together. Score anything, I'm get home that day. my mom who had worked at company literally from the mail room, sense for that I'm twenty plus years worked way up. she was like, Oh, I a major reduction in force and you could and back in the nineties. They did a lot of that because they were. Streamlining things and getting things down, and of course, the older workers, of course they were let go. And from that day, I knew that I wanted to make sure that works in a place that would never do that for me and so I highly value organization that is the stability is important where you don't see a lot of people getting rift or getting laid off again, fire I. WanNa see. I see myself as kind of in the minority that I actually working organization in growing that organization. I don't take change very well, and I wanNA see myself nice flourish in an. So I'm kind of on the on the lower end of that bell curve if you will of people who change jobs. So I've had SINCE GRADUATE SCHOOL I've been three different places you know CC L. for almost twelve years place that didn't really work out in here now for three and I've already told you know the present here and the administrators and stuff. Ellie roses coming here in sixteen years when she say team so I don't have a reason to leave now I love it here and the great thing about High Point University for me. They saw my help my skill set and they allowed to say, Hey, here's the office Rohit and that was what was really powerful for me. That's visionary. Exactly. That's visionary. They gave me the. The responsibilities grow it, develop it, and so I've got that opportunity to bill something and that in my career at the time, that's what I wanted to do. So back, twenty seventeen when I love see I wanted a chance to grow something to build something. So I love for an opportunity that didn't work out now it's like, okay what's next in my life for the next? Thirty years this was open. So I get the option to do that, and what's so awesome about that story just told his it kind of built from this foundation of self awareness and understanding something about yourself and what you wanted right I think that that's a really fundamental thing that is very important for us to always be thinking about as we're going through our careers and lives. I definitely agree I want to add something here if you're a university and you don't have science driven assessment and career helping tools, you're behind the curve bill gentry's leading the way you need to follow suit because these. These are situated guidance advice direction that can impact your future student bodies lives. And it's going to determine the kind of alumni you're gonNA it's GonNa start a super virtuous cycle but. I'M NOT GONNA call specific names out but I've dealt with so many of this stuff where it's just garbage well, here's our alumni network maybe you WANNA call somebody that's that's the level of immaturity that's unacceptable in the modern workplace that is facing volatility Fuca volatility uncertainty complexity ambiguity and sciences a way to win and Bill Gentry's winning over there We're building we've got we still have a long way to go and but we are building it and the, and just like you said, if we get better students into campus as freshman and we work with them, they're going to be better educated and they're going to set the world on fire. When they graduate, they'll be seen as that. Our alums will want to help our students and the that they that parents and in prospect of students say. You know these graduates a high point university they are doing something I to be like that. Just the rising tide is gonNA lift all of us here and science will reduce the amount of pain you have to inevitably suffer to find where you need to be. And it also, it's not gonna be a hundred percent. Perfect. No Science is unless it's like you know. There are people that might actually say no others in going. Yeah. Theoretical man. Yeah. Exact. But more often than not. It's a really good starting point for a student and you know from my research leadership most effective leaders are self aware know their strengths strengthening other witnesses are willing to improve. Working with us in career in our confessional in office, you get a really great way to understand who you are, and that's a really great foundation to springboard into other things. Your right. So that's why having assessments that are really highly reliable valid proven we want to help with our students self-awareness. That's phenomenal. So one thing that we have to ask about careers is cove it right. So covert has had a huge impact on the job market unemployment's that's probably the understatement of the year right there. But you know what's your advice for folks looking for jobs right now for first time job seekers is there a pandemic pandemic proof career out there? What are your thoughts on that? A lot of the folks in the media seen these pandemic roof jobs so you know. Retail. Not Retail but like you know Harris the supermarkets and. The walmarts of the world, the Amazons of the world. That's worth thing that that's kind of a random proof job the kind of think on the surface maybe working in hospitals working in healthcare those are pandemic route jobs with he kind of dig deeper in the healthcare sector I have noticed and seeing a lot of folks get furloughed lose their jobs in healthcare sector. If and it's really all this stuff is really kind of more on the front lines. Yeah. That's pandemic safe. For instance, you're always going to have their many healthcare jobs have been lost during this time as well. So I tell my students and not tell anyone looking for a job you need to try to pandemic roof your career. What sort of skills can you have? That could be transferable to any career sort of chaos as no skills abilities do you need you know communication influence being politically savvy being collaborate well having some integrity and character and thinking about how you you know. brand yourself. Those are things that are transferable to any career. So if you're able to have those sorts of chaos as you're going to be much more valuable to any organization because they want people who are able to. Have had experience track record communicating well, collaborating well Influencing well, that's the types of things they want. So I tell my students until others it's not about trying to find a certain job. It's about making sure that you have the skills necessary so that you are marketable for so many different. The difference number trying to find a Democrat jobs pinned proofing your own career. Excellent. So I'd like to move on a little bit and talk about your book because you know so as I mentioned your bio. Two Bill Gentry wrote a book called be the boss everyone wants to work for a guide for new leaders. It's a great book. It's evidence-based goal by it. We'll put the link to your copy. Yeah. I have it right as as so dog-eared so I I it is mistake it for the dead. Sea Scrolls. That's because I came to Cleveland State University. The fall of two, thousand sixteen, which is right. Your book came out in August Sixteen and I was like teaches class leadership I was like I need to use builds new book, and so I've been using it for that class ever since and it's been fantastic my students love it I like it a lot because it is evidence base grounded in research and provide some actual advice for people as they're moving into first time leadership roles and even way beyond. Right. Let's talk about is not just for first time leaders is very applicable there. It's also applicable across the spectrum of leadership I guess what you know why did you write this book? You know what? Why? This topic? What are your? What's been the reception that you've gotten from it? You know from folks who have bought it and so forth. So around twenty ten is when I really got interested in bat populations of leaders those who've never led before who did all the work? Who did it really well got all the raises and bonuses, emotions, accolades, and they got the spotlight all the time because they did all that they're the ones who get promoted leadership and what I saw a lot of people like I didn't want this. I didn't ask for this and also they thought that okay I'm I'm this on this leader now they stopped doing the things that got them into leadership. or I should say they kept on doing the things that got the leadership couldn't make that transition to being a leader. You Know Classic Salesperson who does all the things that get promoted the head of sales and they can't let go of the salesperson. And they can't start to have the identity of being a leader sales. Dad. They don't have that dopamine hit of closing a deal. Narrow a million bucks boom. There's another million bucks instead it's, and now I need to put together this dashboard for. Teens. And pretty the fondest. Sorry none the same it right. It's the same. An. Accountant scientists, you know whatever? Whatever roles it is. And I started looking at the data that was there you know I think monster dot com said something about sixty percent of people got promoted in their first leadership position on almost six percent never got any training or development. 'cause they cost money and time yeah. Companies pay for it and and they want to focus on and they focus on mid senior level executives who already. Had Fifteen to twenty plus years of leaders experience. Let me interject something there. When you look at budgets I'm sorry we only pay for coaches consultants for our VP, and above executives and like some of those guys have networks at that point that could help them out. But that new director like the derailment we talk about this book, the first ninety days are you familiar with that book. The amount of people that fail in the first position are huge and they ll often don't get another at bat but they were had all the skills, Talat ability high potential new leader development man these guys are going to be great, and then like have fun with that, we're going to throw you in the ocean swim Jackwagon. When I was at CC, l. we looked across the research that we did was we saw almost that a fifty percent of leaders were ineffective in their role fifty percent one out of every Josh. So that's if we're not training leaders, and in fact, there's another one a love this when from singer fault when they said that the and I use a lot with my students to kind of put a level set of what should the Expectation be about when you graduate from here the average person to get his refers leadership role like formalize supervisory, whatever role is thirty. So I told my students, it's to probably take you eight years on average will be quicker and you know it's as an average, but it's probably on average GONNA. Take eight years to get your actual first leadership position. So you're not going to get the corner and there's crying they're crying right there. Yeah. But then we talk about how can you set yourself up to be on that fast tracks was it's less than eight years made plug that if you WANNA leadership position right now join the national guard or the US Army. Or the movie or the Air Force your first role will be in charge of about twenty to forty people. It will take you about fifteen to twenty years to get that in the. Anyway and built. In the army here. In the navy. So, there I route recently spills thirty the average person to get his or her first leadership development experience is forty, two, zero, my twelve years twelve years. Thank swear. Yet you go do it. So for me, it's like that's That's not that's a blind spot corporations go debut ships for that blind spot. I wanted to help. So leaders aren't getting it from their own organization I wanted to try to do something to help them even if those, you know twenty ish dollar book and. And I wanted a book to wear if these leaders were reading it's not about the theory because you can't apply theory in the now. Okay. Here's the theory. Okay. That's fine. But here is how it actually looks like in. Here's what you should do, and here's the and here's how bill gentry who was at the time of writing. This was promoted into his first leadership role. Here's. How he has screwed up here's how things that you know even though he's a researcher and he knows exactly what the research says he's still a person and a human, and here's some things that he's learned by doing these things right and doing these things wrong or totally missing the boat on certain things. So putting all those things together the theory that practice in the art. Really. Your. Doesn't scientists to do the review of the literature and put this into context people can actually use. Yeah, and I really wanted to have at the end of each chapter. Have this thing called the coach's corner where here are some questions to think deeper about it for your own self and here are two things based on this chapter that you can do in the next two weeks in the next ninety days To actually. Put the stuff that you just read in practice. You can actually see it being done and you can actually improve yourself particularly as I said when you're not getting any help from HR or talent development or whatever, and there's no programs for you and the way the leadership development you know. Sector is right now a lot of it's going to be online in love is only just going to be pointed toward certain critical roles right now because that's kind of where we are in life. So what can you do and how can you own your development and I? Think that's one of the things that I tell our students here and I tell anyone who's interested in the train element feel. A person has to take control of his or her own professional development going down, they can't rely on a third party vendor. They can't rely on their organization they've got to take control, and if you have questions, we wanted to go to your hr person go your town only person ask. In say I've had some ideas. If they're not there ask your peers why not start a book club why not you know do something a for peers in your organization that are similar that are similarly working as leader for the first time why not build that here network or those here those peer coaches, what a difference on your own proactive that yeah. Get all of your friends who are in a similar situation together all of you go by Bills Book and then talk about it on a daily basis and and get better I and I'm I'm laughing a little bit but I'm serious I think that that would help. Because I, know. Know Science don't buy the CEO's book that says how to put on a suit and look good but be full of fluff. So. Many of the books get a book by an actual AIA site guy or somebody that's has some anyway we preach that gotta keep going until we stopped seeing all these bad books. That's right. That's right. So a big theme in the book is this idea you kind of use it as a metaphor throughout is this idea of flipping your script? What's that about and what do you mean by that? We all have scripts in our lives like you know television actor play. Theater musical whatever the script that. So many of us live in life and there's nothing wrong with the script is a scripted. I heard a lot about in relationships. It's not you. It's me. A Lot. In my life and that's an dripped I. Like don't even talk to me buddy. How In an organizational stance of getting away from. A professional organizational standpoint. What the it's not you it's me script is. Is, it's exactly what makes us successful in organizations? It's me coming in early me staying late. My skills might tells my personality my work ethic, all those things that have made me successful even ever since I was a little kid. Got Me. Great Grades. What got me into holidays will got me my first job or me myself and I focusing on myself it's not about you. It's about. And that's what gets US raises and bonuses and promotions in the spotlight. This absolutely nothing wrong with that script at all nothing. Until you get promoted leadership and what often happens is when you get promoted to leadership, you think, okay, my script and life if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I'm going to keep looking at and I think that's one of the reasons why one over to managers are ineffective there all as why derailment is such a critical factor in organizational life they don't don't go flip the script, and if you're unable to flip your script and say, you know what my former script is not you it's me worked until I was a leader as a leader offline, flip my script and say As a leader it's not about me anymore. I have to be less me focused and more we focused if you're able to flip your script and do that and say, my success is not about my own success as a later my success leaders about my team success. If they're successful, that's what's GonNa. Make me success. That's what's going to get the actual raising bonuses promotions. How effective my team is how effective Mike Co Workers around me are. Me As someone who's collaborative that can work. Well, that's what's GonNa make me successful. So flipping my script saying it's not about me anymore. If there's one thing that you get out from our from our conversation that we have today. If you're able to flip your script and say, it's not about me anymore, you're going to do much better in sort of every single action decision behavior you are a leader if that's your mantra, that's your script it's not about me anymore you're going to be much more effect you gotta run both scripts say can't not have some kind of expertise technical excellence at the individual contributor level level everyone pretty much be an individual contributor. But and I like the idea of script it. While if you need your email, you run the email software. So you need the individual contributor, you run the individual contributor software, but I've sat in so many interviews with managers, executives where okay. So what do you think you would add to this role like ono only make some more money Know. Like wait a minute Javanese facilitation skills, scheduling skills, and just skills Ninja. Skills. With the sword and. Wizard. Plus Five. Yeah Yeah. No I. Absolutely. And One other big idea in the book and something you've already mentioned here. Bill is this idea of derailment and Just I suppose quickly for our listeners what is derailment? Some of the causes of it, how can we maybe avoid it? I mean one of the big ways void by reading and doing what's in the book but other ways that you can Derailment. So derailments been around for decades creative leadership was one of the first one of the first so to really focus in on. What causes the? Final? Yes. Good. Yep. Derailment is when a person had the abilities and all the promise of of going up the organizational ladder being at the very top you organization but somehow their career flamed out they burned out they got demoted early they got fired they hit a career platfo and they just couldn't keep moving up the stayed where they are and they saw that there were several behaviors of derailed executives and those behaviors really deal with. You know not being able to flip their scripts. So think about it. One of the key behaviors of leaders who were unable to there's a WHO derailed was the call. To narrow functional orientation. Yeah. A functional orientation as is the computer programmer who's really great computer programming. He has to now manage other computer programmers and he or she can't get out of the hit the mind set of computer programming, and that's all that person does even as a leader you have to be able to get out of that functional mindset. If you're a salesperson, it's not about selling. Any more if you're researchers about doing the research anymore, how are you leading those people? So you know to narrow functional orientation up problems with interpersonal relationships. That's the lone wolf that's the my way or the highway. That's the I'm going to do it all myself. That's the one who is cold and aloof in one of one of the assessment questions that gets to the CC. L. Puts forth. Like leaving a trail of ruse people behind. Those types of leaders those if you tend to those things, you're probably on the way to derailment you can't leave a team well so not being able to actually leave that team. Your Business results you can't actually if you're got PNL and you're not able to do that A. Bright you're toast I mean. So those are some of the behaviors of these derailed executives in sometimes derailment is out of our control think about think about my mom for instance The whole reason she her positions like Oh company started merging with other companies when you start merging and you have mergers and acquisitions, some jobs are going to let go. So it's you know sometimes it's not your fault. But a lot of times it is now and so. All the stuff. That's your fault anyway. Control controllables. Yeah. So derailment is something you definitely can't control, and if you're on a path derailment, you can definitely get off that the derailment if you are willing to do it. Great Great? Yeah I think it's. It's definitely an important thing for all of us be aware of kind of at every level within our careers right I guess what are some of the other big things that that have really resonated with folks from your book? That you really think people should be aware of. I think the ability of to. Know that you can make a difference. I tell my I, tell new leaders all time when I'm working with them, training them whatever. You being a new leader. So many of the people that are working for you are. Fresh out of college, they might be in their first job you might be the. Leader there I leader they've ever had right. So what sort of image of leadership or you portraying because everyone? Can Remember the first person they've ever had a superman. And that is going to Holler and influence their thoughts about leadership for the next fifty, sixty years of their lives. Yeah. So what are you doing? To make sure that they see what leaders hand be. So that's one thing I think I. Hope People Get out of the book that have you talk about. Now the thing I hope that they have that you can get the book by reading. There's so many great stories about you know me personally but others who've gone through certain certain things. You're not alone when you're new to leadership, you are not alone. There are other people out there. There are people in your organization that are going to the same sorts of things be be proactive and ask for help and asking for help is not a sign of weakness that strength I tell that to my fellows, my leadership fellows here to let the students we work with. Two leaders thoughts anybody asking for help. Tiger Woods. Still hasn't wing coach Yup Yup. That's right. Asking for help is not a sign of weakness. It's a sign of strength tickly for leaders expected to know everything. So ask for help. and then finally I think one of the things that I was really proud of in the book was one of the last examples of talk about Jack in the book and Jacksonville Persons Actually Name is Jack. And when you read the book, you find out why put him in there but long story short. Jack was able to know in his role that he was able to make a difference to the lives of leaders even his role at the distribution center of the. Sanford. Francisco leadership even in his role of. Getting things off the shelf and packaging it away. He knew that if he did not do his in the distribution center, he was not helping leaders get better. He could clearly see how his job was developing leaders and. So as leaders are jobs develop other people. And I think he can do that from a leadership role. Whether you coach them develop them mentor, them advise them whatever Roy is from your leadership role. You have the powerful opportunity to help people get better to help people fulfill their mission of their own personal life to help people the all that they can make a difference in the world. And I'm sure Jack leaders did that within the Distribution Center I get the chance to do that here of eighteen to twenty year olds every single day I get the chance to do that with with new leaders who you know in trainings or whatever. That's a really powerful experience to help set that mindset of you can actually fulfill someone's potential and make them feel special. Make them feel like they are contributing to the world and that's what leaders have. The power to do has ar. Because they are everyone could conserve you know and can contribute A. Great positivity out to the world around us. Awesome. Awesome. So are there any places on the web where people can go and find out more about you your work what you're up to? Yeah so feel free to connect with me on linked in. Always happy to to connect with folks there if you had a personal message, one of the things that I've come to know with linked in, there's the whole kind of you know default. Hey. I. Want to connect with you I'm so many people don't even just ignore those and don't connect we want to allow. People linked wants to get even even the small personal messages that always helps when you're trying to network with people. So making sure to s Ryan message on Lake Dan. So feel free to connect meal linked in websites, Gentry DOT COM You can find some more stuff about me there and then I'm at high point university if you're ever thinking about They didn't know what type Versi look like looking more looking at what we do here If you want to learn more about Howard helping students hauer interacting with employers as you know, our office doesn't just help students. Our office actually also wants to connect with employers and say, Hey, you know. Tell us about your pipeline tell us about your future internships and jobs and what types of students you are willing to work in those internships and what types of all these are seeking for your organizations we want to be we want to be able to be seen as a really great pool of possible applicants for those interns and jobs too. So we have that do role of working with students, but also that other side working with the organization see the hey, you have a powerful population pool of future leaders in your organization here, university outstanding. Bells got evidence base routes for matching. Right, you're less likely to draw. Outstanding was has been a wonderful conversation bill. Just thank you so much for being our guest today on the Indigo podcast. I'm really honors been. It's been awesome to talk with the offer for the time. We thank you so much. Thanks for listening to the INDIGO PODCAST. If you like this podcast, these consider helping us by rating us on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen telling your friends about us, having us on your podcast or mentioning us on social media. Our website is www dot indigo podcast dot com. Where you can access more information about us and this episode. Thanks again, and we look forward to talking with you again soon.

Bill Gentry Bill Gentry director high point university Chris executive researcher Cleveland State University CEO Ben Baron Iowa accountant Adam Harvard Myers Briggs Wall Street Journal University of Georgia Forbes Dot Com Grad School North Carolina
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That's Harrys Dot com code. Five thousand enjoy media that that. Dna has been left in nineteen eighty five when the when the first year the need and had a national team. And it's never left so I think the important things to ask their history of the team because it's truly routed into Every time we put on the Cross because I am beyond honored every time step on to represent the United States and were crossing our heart and every single one of us feel. That too was a pretty good too. You have to refocus after Brazil because there was a lot of disappointments there and I always felt there was a carry-over in a positive way. For the way you all played collectively in two thousand nineteen in the women's World Cup and my Correct an observation. I would say that. Obviously it was really hard. It was a really hard time was some of our first of all actually with the national thing And yet I think I think I opening experienced Going into a tournament especially for me being my first Olympics and And younger ones. I for that matter just being I Really heartbreaking that moment But you know what like I learned so much from it and you did too But I it wasn't like a Oh it. It was not a this is the revenge. It's it's never a revenge of remember so that we can learn keep growing and getting better But yeah it's important for us to explain that to the ambulance who maybe work there Because it is a different. It's a completely different tournament after the World Cup. And it's not that far behind the roof up you know what I mean. You have three years compared to the real fast and you get a short window after World Cup to be able to prepare for Olympics. She's the different tournament completely and and And it's one of the things that you share those stories and learn from them but more more importantly groping them as I mentioned your husband's Zach Ertz is in the national football league. But I WANNA talk briefly about your foundation that you have with him. Tell everybody about that. Yeah sorry was the second year Something I need to watch what Obviously especially in our community that have given us so much Back actually around the missing trip with the Eagles And he said it was in a life changing your life. Changing three and four. I was actually in cancer. Couldn't couldn't go with him but It was like he just saw how how much faith and hope that that that country odd And they didn't have very much and so I remember him calling me around Asian doing do more for our communities with our platform and so Where these mostly in Philly in the bay area and we do some work in Haiti at ball. I just to give back. They gave us and it's just to Help with educational and sports opportunity for Underserved children Julia. I WANNA thank you for joining us here on Sports. Byline have watched you for a long time and it's so much fun to watch. The women play as they do just outstanding collectively as well as individually continued. Good luck to you and I hope you win more fearful World Cup Championships for the Women. Take care and come back again. Join US on sports byline. Thank you so much for having me. Have a great day Julia Roberts with us again. She's a midfielder defender for the United States Women's national soccer team she also plays in the highest division of women's professional soccer in the United States with the Chicago Red Stars and she played her college soccer at Santa Clara University. And at twenty three she was the second youngest member of the two thousand fifteen team where she played every minute of all seven games of that tournament. She was named the fief of women's World Cup all star member and she was also named the US soccer female player of the year. Not once but also twice. We continue with more of you and sports byline not too long ago. It felt good to withdraw your cash from the bank. Didn't it for a vacation or a new car? But today withdrawing your own cash has become risky pat. Boone here Swissamerica. According to the secret war a new Swiss America White Paper. I learned that all banks are now required to spy on you and me for the government and then report any financial behavior deemed suspicious or unusual. You must read the secret war. It's free truth is I. Believe the government's new war against cash is really a war against us all but the secret is now out so please get and read the secret war. Pick up your phone and call right now. Eight hundred nine three to five five one seven eight hundred nine three to five five one seven eight hundred nine three to five five one seven once again. 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Eight eight three three zero zero one two three if you want more information on blue visit online at www dot google dot com now at select the big five stores near you. This is America's sports talk show sports byline. Usa here's Rondo. That's going to wrap up this hour. Sports byline very interesting interview and talk with Julie urged. She's the midfielder defender the United States women's national soccer team. She's also playing in the highest division of women's professional soccer in the US with the Chicago Red Star and also she helped the US win to Fiba Women's World Cup Championships. Two Thousand Fifteen in two thousand nineteen and at twenty three. She was the youngest member of the two thousand. Fifteen team ever to play every minute of all seven games and EARNHARDT. You know that name associated with motor racing the daughter of Dale earnhardt Senior Kelley. Earnhardt Miller was with us. She is the CO owner and general manager of Jr's sports and is considered one of the most prominent business women in Nascar today. Hang around. We've got more coming your way on America's sports talk show I everybody. I'm Fred Wallin. Please join us for sports overnight. America right here on sports byline and sports BYLINE DOT com. We'll talk about anything and everything in the wonderful and wacky world of sports. Join Me Fred Wallin ten. Pm Pacific Time every Friday. You're listening to the sports byline. Usa Saybrook you're listening to the heartland news radio network broadcasting live tweet for seven lane newsfeed. This stream is supported by advertisers and contributions by follow us on facebook twitter and instagram. This is the liberty your daily source for Liberty News and activists updates produced in partnership with the SNL s network and listeners like you online at SNL s network DOT com. I'm McMurdo with your latest edition of the Liberty beat Gold's trading at one thousand six hundred forty dollars over at eighteen dollars and six cents and Bitcoin is trading around nine thousand two hundred ten dollars. Today's gold silver in Bitcoin. Prices are brought to you by botanical high quality creative and CBD at reasonable prices with excellent customer service. Bray botanical is activist owned and mission driven the liberty meat and brave botanical. Believe so strongly in the power of them. We're giving it away for free. Just go to liberty beat DOT news slash free create. This is the liberty beat at SNL less network dot com in the news as East Asian countries continue to struggle with the spreading corona virus. A senior member of the International Olympic Committee has warned that the Tokyo Olympic Games may be cancelled if authorities felt contain spread within the next two to three months long standing. Ioc member Dick Pound told the Associated Press on Tuesday. That have fears. Aren't calm by around. May organizers would have no choice but to cancel the games rather than postpone or move them since the viral outbreak began in China. Two months ago over eighty thousand people have been infected worldwide with two thousand seven hundred dying mostly in China however NHK world reports. That has Tuesday eight hundred sixty one people in Japan are confirmed to be infected. Japan has reported four deaths so far. We'll have more on the corona virus coming up ever wonder where we find all the news to report right here on the liberty meet visit. Snl S. DOT news to get the world's most censored media published one place. Save yourself from the endless time spent searching for reliable alternative media. Snl last news makes it quick and easy. No ads. No Click Bait Jess role headlines. Twenty four hours a day visit S. and L. S. DOT news and get informed today without the corporate media. Spend your news now continues while mom and dad on mainstream still aren't getting the dire warning that the virus has been offering up to Asia and the rest of the eastern world over the last several weeks. Perhaps a light bulb will finally go off when John Q. Public heads to the grocery store and is unable to buy shampoo and toothpaste activists post reports at proctor and gamble. One of the world's biggest everyday product manufacturers has now officially warned that seventeen thousand six hundred of its products could be affected and disrupted by the Corona virus the company's CFO. John Muller said at a recent conference that procter and gamble used three hundred eighty seven suppliers across China shipping more than nine thousand materials according to CIP dot. Org Muller said that each of the suppliers faces their own challenges in resuming operations. And it's not just everyday consumer goods that are going to be feeling. The impact of the virus. Federal law enforcement in Seattle sought an average of one court order a day to disclose people's sensitive information. Such calling history in the first half of two thousand nineteen. According to a report released this year the report the first of its kind by the US District Court for the western district of Washington shows. That officials sought one hundred eighty two applications and orders for electronic surveillance between January and June. Twenty nineteen activists post reports at such surveillance orders. Do not require law enforcement to get a warrant and directed to third parties like phone companies email providers and other online services to demand private in revealing information about their users. Although the report does not provide specifics on the services or individuals targeted by the surveillance orders. It does detail how federal law enforcement in the region or using various forms of surveillance. The report is a result of a lawsuit by. 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Three eight hundred four seven seven one one three eight hundred four seven seven one one three. That's eight hundred four seven. Oh seventy one thirteen worldwide sports byline. Usa and here's host Ron Bucks. And wherever you might be across this great country of ours and around the world. Nice to have you again with us. Here on America's sports talk shows sports byline. We'RE GONNA be talking basketball this hour. We're going to honor one of the all-time Great College Basketball Coaches. He passed away in two thousand seventeen but he pulled off one of the biggest upsets in college basketball the NC Double A. Finals. I think you probably know who. I'm talking about. Rallied Mass Amino former head. Basketball coach Stony Brook also coached at UNLV. In Cleveland State. But he had his most success when he was the head coach at Villanova and Villanova. He led his one thousand nine hundred eighty four eighty five team to the NC Double A. Championship entering the one thousand nine hundred five. Nc Double A. Tournament as the eighth seed. Villanova defeated their heavily favored biggies conference opponent. Georgetown in that title game and that upset is widely regarded as one of the greatest ins. Nc Double A. History. So we'll share with you. Our interview with the late Raleigh Mass Amino and then. We'll talk with kwami Brown now. If you're a basketball fan boy I'll tell you what. He had a Lotta hype with him when he was drafted outstanding center to some degree had the size but he really had some problems adapting to the NBA. He was the first overall pick in the two thousand one. Nba draft by the Washington Wizards. He was the first number one draft pick to be selected straight out of high school and over his twelve season career. He's played for the wizards the Lakers Grizzlies Pistons Bob. Cats warriors and sixers. He grew up in Brunswick Georgia and he was consistently rated as the best high school player in his class and he was the high school player of the year as a senior in Georgia and originally he was signing a letter of intent to play at the. University of Florida later declared for the two thousand one. Nba draft in Washington Wizards under team president. Michael Jordan decided to use their first overall. Pick on him and probably because of all the hype and high expectation. Browns rookie season was marred by lack of maturity and also production on the court and in his rookie year Brown average four and a half points in three and a half rebounds per game. This is a very interesting story. I think it's a very telling story as well because I think when you're hype. There are high expectations particularly if you're the first overall pick in an NBA draft and especially if you're also a big man. People expect a lot out of big men in professional basketball so kwami Brown joining us next on sports byline. Don't go out to eat. Go out to eat at Chili's chicken or shrimp. Pitas are now on three for ten. So here that chicken Yummy that shrimp sissel similar people laughing and having fun back Gary maybe take it down a notch. It's a bit much so sorry. Just kidding Gary Truth go out to eat at Chili's for three for ten. That's a starter. Fajita an offer ten bucks together. We chilling at participating restaurants. Only price may vary in Hawaii. Ready to own your first real home. The road to unrelenting can get a bit rocky takes a reliable partner to right wrong turns. That's the role of a realtor. An expert Voice of reason helping you navigate the rigmarole of real estate a trusted ally who knows and represents your rights see. You hit all the right guidance. On Your journey home is your agent or realtor look for the realtors are members of the National Association of Realtors. 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One hundred per customer seems more than thirty five gigabytes of data during a billing cycle deprioritize during times of Network congestion offers and coverage seasonal dot com. This is America's sports talk show sports byline. Usa here's Ron Bar. We're GONNA share with you. Our interview with the late. Raleigh Mass Amino passed away in two thousand seventeen. He had a great coaching career but most successful at Villanova where he led that team to the NC Double A. Championship with a win over. Georgetown and that upset is widely regarded as one of the greatest and NCWA history. Raleigh Mass Amino has joined us here on Sports Byline USA. He is coaching basketball Cleveland State. They're struggling a little bit but he hopes to turn that program around there. Eight seventeen former head coach of course at Unlv but he led Villanova the National Championship. Back in Nineteen eighty-five rally. Nice to have you with us here on sports bioline. Thank you very much. I listen to your program Most of the week thank you. What was your motivation for? Taking the Cleveland State job all mostly is because I really wanted to stay involved with young people I wasn't ready to Go out hit. The Golf Ball Every single day of the week and It's proved to be very very wonderful. Experience in the city of Cleveland has been just great. What'S THE CHALLENGES AT CLEVELAND? State as compared to maybe even Villanova. How is it different? Well you know I it's different In a lot of ways yes yet. It's very similar in so many ways because I think kids are kids They all want to be the best they can be. They all want to win They WanNa play the best possible basketball. They can play. And that's exactly what was driving for us to develop Cleveland State into Major College Basketball Program and You know I think With our record eight seventeen. It's to me. It's very very deceiving because We played some of the biggest teams in the country. Very very well and I mean we had a chance to win seven or eight additional games and we've already won three more than they've worn last year and You know we're excited about the direction that we're going in What we're trying to accomplish. Raleigh they're generally two schools of thought. When you're building a program one is to bring in the junior college players and of course try to get immediate success. The other is to take young players and develop them slowly. How are you approaching the Cleveland State? Such an interesting question Ron because excuse me we had never recruited junior college players until I went to. Unlv and We recruited a few there. Here at Cleveland. State we're trying to get a conglomerate of of both We want a few junior college players. Because you know I think a little bit more mature and the ready to commending contribute immediately yet you know. Our overall philosophy is to get as many for your players as we can because That develops the family concept as I've I've always believed in in my career and it has made You know a lot of sense because they they give us an opportunity to be around them for four years and hopefully the experiences and the development and the system kind of sets into place but right. Now it's really you know quite frankly A little bit about when you take a look at football college. Football as compared to college basketball in Raleigh Mass Amina walks in and says I want you to come to Cleveland. Space State and play. Some basketball for me is a little bit easier to recruit that kid to a school like Cleveland State which is small and have them come play basketball than if somebody wants to go and you know be a football player needs to go to that big school in order to get the reputation and maybe go onto the NFL. Well you know that could be true. I think that we've gotten into a lot more homes but he'll Cleveland State Is a very well kept secret? it's campus Style but yet is an urban Style school with With the Convocation Center where we play which is right on campus of thirteen thousand six hundred fans that I think come and watch US play. It's a beautiful beautiful facility. I'd say it's one of the top six or seven th on campus Sicilian whole country. So you know I it to me. It's a sleeping giant and you know my dear friends Chuck Daly Billy Cunningham. Said you know Why Cleveland Rowley? And I say well why not and We've been kinda accepted on on such a positive matter. We've added the ability and opportunity. Get into a lot of homes and we think you know. We're going to kind of turned the corner another few years earlier than we anticipated. Rolling I get the feeling because of what you've done in the past and your background and everything that you're probably very comfortable on a personal level in an environment like Cleveland state like you were in Villanova in the Philadelphia area. I think you're exactly right right now. We worked very very hard to go out in the community and in the community is is really accepted us and you know they and had very many fans in the past and We had more fans in three games and they had all last year and You know that was certainly a positive thing. And we've averaged close to four or five thousand people that come to our games and Nine thousand plus Georgetown in over ten at Michigan and the next good part about that is that we've had my friends Say Yes to come to the convocation center. Come to Cleveland to play. You know usually a Cleveland state or more or a mid. Major school has to go and travel. You know what I mean to to to gain a little bit risk of respect and to get a big guarantee. Well we had the fortunate opportunity to have you know the good schools Come in the major school so to speak. Come in and play. And so the fans in Cleveland Can See US play a big time school? But you know as well as I do as soon as you guys get better. They're not GONNA do that. Raleigh had with difficult right now all right. My first daughter business was to get scheduled to me. It's you know like a wheel of fortune. You gotta get a schedule and you get players players give you some exposure exposure get your on TV TV. You know get you better. Players earned some money. And then you're you know then you're winning and Four people I call. We were bobby. Knight and Dean Smith. John Thompson. Georgetown Jimmy Hurricane. Ucla and John said Raleigh will come. And that was the first breakthrough that already scheduled Michigan. Then we got A commitment from Michigan State and then Wichita State Colorado State. You know I it was so nice and it's all home and away and then we had the opportunity of of play North North Carolina State and You know I'll come. You know. He said Cleveland. And I'll eventually come to so you know that was very very nice You know when you have friends over the years it you know it makes for you know a nice setting when you trying to establish a program because remember gene Bartow when he started the program at Uab alabama-birmingham he asked me. If I would come down I said for you know and we got beat it You know but that's the that's the camaraderie. That's establish amongst the coaches in the country. Let me ask you about a personal observation after the success that you've had Villanova and winning the National Championship there in nineteen eighty five and then the UNLV experience was it necessary for Raleigh Mass. Amino to really come back another. Make another marker at least come back into basketball in order to if he walks away from the game kind of walk away from it on your own terms. Well no not really I could you know a UNLV That was an experience. That's how I really Kinda labeled that You know I I wasn't fired at UNLV. It was a situation that just wasn compatible so to speak and we can leave it at that and I just thought it was time because of the association's probably you know I think just to move forward And that's exactly what we did and I don't think I had anything to prove. I mean I think I made my mark right or wrong I've always believed that that everything I did was right and I tried to do everything that was right But when I went back and and get out of it I was very fortunate to get involved with Prime Network. Who you know gave me the opportunity to be a color analyst and I really love that. That was fun but it. Just you know it just wasn't enough The coaches were gracious and A lot of them asked me to speak to their teams. You know and that was wonderful but it still wasn't the last two minutes you know what I mean when I'm really used to and I had an opportunity to go to a few major schools that had an opportunity to go On a division three level and then a division two level and then Mike Fratello Who was an assistant of Mine at Villanova? For number of years you know called only watch come to Cleveland. And that's how it all started when you reflect back on the championship year at Villanova what you're most telling memories about it because I'm sure at the moment it happens and maybe most immediately right after it happens. That memory might be different than what it might be a couple years later you know am so grateful that we Especially my family and opportunity to get to a final four and to play in the championship. Game a wonderful experience and I I just felt that You know I just can't begin to tell you how great it was the way it ended But then the next year we had another great year we can get to the final four. But you know we won. More Games and You know the championship is a championship and That's what it's all about and It was just a wonderful experience Raleigh. Thank you very much for your time tonight. I appreciate it and good to have you back in College Basketball Coaching once again. And when I get to Cleveland. I look forward to kind of sit down. You know. I know you're out there in California right. That's right San Francisco. My one of my dear assistance John. Oliver's plane San Francisco this weekend to Raleigh. Thank you very much for your time tonight. Roy Mass Amino bought tell you what. He's had a lot of success during his career. Eight conference coach of the year championships or at least titles to his credit in his twenty four years of collegiate coach and Back In College Basketball Coaching at Cleveland State. I hope you enjoyed our interview with the late. Raleigh Mass Amino passed away in two thousand seventeen at the age of eighty two won a national championship and college. Basketball at Villanova. Are you an active stock? Market investor? Will then you know these three key? Words buy sell hold. Those three magic words can make or lose you money in the stock market. What are we can show you? A time-tested tool has been helping stock market. Investors succeed for over thirty years. It's called vector vest and amazing system designed to make smart investing easy. The vector vest system analyzes sorts and ranks over nineteen thousand stocks every day and tells you when to buy what to buy and when to sell any stock to maximize your profits in less than ten minutes a day. 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That's right a monthly cash payment paid directly to you from the Social Security Administration whether you're applying for the first time or you've already been denied disability benefits call now the disability attorneys at Pinnacle Disability can help you build your case file an appeal and represent you at no upfront cost to you. Don't wait another minute to see if you may qualify for your social security disability benefits called clinical disability group at eight hundred five nine three seven four nine one for your free case evaluation. That's eight hundred five nine three seven four nine one eight hundred five nine three seven four nine one call now this is America's Sports Talk Show Sports Byline USA act. Here's Ron Brown joins US center. Who WAS THE FIRST OVERALL? Pick in the two thousand one. Nba draft by the wizards and was the first number one draft pick to be selected straight out of high school and over his twelve season career. He played for the Wizards Lakers Grizzlies Pistons Bob Cats warriors in sixers and he grew up in Brunswick Georgia kwami. Tell me a little bit about growing up in Brunswick what kind of town it was and what life was like when you were growing up. Brunswick is a is a very small town. Diverse sound But if it was more when I grew up it was like a retirement place We have a lot of younger people. Here now It was fun and not a lot of opportunities but I didn't really realize it now But you know. We had the typical upbringing with the rich and That was I like sports. Going to play baseball take soccer. I just lived in bad boys and girls. I know your mother. Joyce worked very very hard and you had a large family single parents situation there. Tell me a little bit about her. Because I've always found in talking to African American athletes that the strength of a black woman in the family is just amazing and it seems like that's the way it was with. Joyce as well. Yeah I mean She was forced in that situation. My mother wasn't the typical single mother other. She was married to my father. My father made some poor choices and ended up getting life in prison So When that happened I mean. We had a pretty good upbringing. I didn't know about my father's Dealings on on the side. But when he was around everything he had Floors and go karts and all that type of stuff then when he made his choice is that to you know A situation where we in West considered the hood and and on government assistance so I don't think any child should have to grow up like that so I don't never had a you know big that situation up. I always try to tell people the truth. From the point of view of the child in that just the mother That was a very difficult upbringing. And that's how a lot of kids label have labeled as soon as you get into the school system and you don't have that representation. That mother and father and mother came goes to the school a lot because she was trying to work through the back. But when you don't have been tasting Kinda get labeled and you kinda get forever into the system and not such a good night. Did basketball bring you some type of structure and enjoyment in the early part of Your Life Kwami? I didn't know I was GONNA be able to take this basketball. I just did with every other kid did. Which was you. Go out and just play sports but I knew I was a little bit. Different I thank God that they did the beach vacation thing because I ended up being around a mix of people I ended up being added some light finance and suddenly expanded. Franken and I went to a very good school and thinks out of the ministry so it just allowed me to pick a different and I remember going to one of my friends. Jacob Nelson's house And they had everything that I always been habits so it allowed me to bring pass my situation so I would try to go as much as I could but I would always go back to. The reality of my house was collecting. Always made decide to do. Better get my schoolwork and it had paid attention in class and so I was appreciative of that you were consistently rated as the best high school player in your class and in high school you were. The player of the year is a senior in Georgia. You finished up your high school career at the Glynn Academy in Brunswick Georgia and what are the instrumental people in your life and I want you to tell me how he featured into your life was John Williams. Yeah you know just like any teenage boys that have a father and his life. I started to you know be mischievous for lack of a better word I you know I stopped going to class. I started focusing medics. It and you know a lot of kids in the hood. They tend to think that if they just play basketball. That's GONNA be that way out Mr John You know challenge me let me. That's not going to do it so you know he was actually wondering guy be paid from. S. H. E. N. Nikki team. So he opened my mind up there. You know basketball is not GONNA BE ENOUGH. And he just showed that he did you know and a lot of times. You know mentors that they don't. I appreciate import because without that I would do that you were going to go to. The University of Florida signed a letter of intent but then the decision was made to jump directly into the NBA. Take me through that thought process. Well you know always wanted to go to college. I wanted to be the first in my family to Graduate College Out of my brothers So many of my brothers are going to prison. And how me for doing illegal activities and I just wanted to break that cycle So my main goal was to go to college but you know just given the situation and you know how ideas and some of the tournaments that I went to you know I never thought on guys being You know I would be the number one draft pick but I was competitive that when I got to Tyson Chandler Curry I move by name and they may not know me but I do. They works and I was making my business to do to my designate. Of course you were drafted as a number. One overall. Pick by the Washington Wizards a team. That had a president by the name of Michael Jordan. And I'm just wondering. Do you think you were ready to be able to play at that level both from a talent standpoint from an emotional standpoint from a mental standpoint. Absolutely I don't think they were ready. Because that's all they kept breaking up Lot of times when you're the first at something Everybody puts an opinion on it and sometimes they kind of your perception of reality. Sometimes they kind of force an issue that there's really not a big deal. I mean I play basketball has always been my safe haven so I never had a problem playing basketball and A lot of times people don't go back and DO THEIR HOMEWORK. They always say oh. He's about my dad. Pick and this isn't that you won't find another one that ever had their boss. Which was the biggest player who ever played the game? Play alongside with them. So I was pretty much all at the same time and Can I say it's done it my bill? You can't make that argument but I've never been to make an excuse so I've always been quiet up until this going but I just would like people to take an honest look never seen a number one play fourteen minutes a game. Most number one draft picks you give cheese and you let them dry. And if he can't play he'll show you that but you know that was not not situation and it'll never happen again or any other more. Jackie and I think as you know the big money and professional sports can be mind-bending your contract three years twelve million dollars and I saw a story from Washington. Post Sportswriter Sally Jenkins. She wrote this. She said the presumption behind the investment is that Brown will be calm another Kobe. Bryant or Kevin Garnett the next great young thing. The truth is an practice. The hop is too big turning a teenager from sleepy. Shrimp port. Not long out of puberty and a multimillionaire. Nba Professional is a traumatic process. And not just for Brown either for the adults too. I thought that was insightful. How do you feel about what she said? I mean I just don't realize where some of these people get their against. Thank you can speak about something that they themselves. Never gone to I don't know much about hijinks but I know From Santa and I remember donate every read. She's never touch the basketball. I can guarantee that so A lot of times people should just give their opinion and not stay because like I mean. It's a great opinion because she went to school to learn how to write and communicate. But you know these these I live. They're talking about. I have children that I had to go home and face. I have family. I'll be going say that don't people who have worked their whole life to become one percent of the world. I mean you know basketball and football like baseball. Everybody always talk about the money. So they allow themselves to disrespect in the most unbelievable way but I think they should be a lot. More respect. Put on it and stories like that is what you know allows people off the street come up to disrespect in and make it tough on us the way it should not be. I think that's a very fair statement to make. I do know that you know when you got to Washington you Doug Collins as your coach. And he's a pretty Difficult person at times. That's just my observation. And I saw quotes at has been lectured. Scolded and instructed advise and perhaps warp. The voices have overwhelmed him. Was it difficult for you own those early years in Washington? I mean the the if you look at the time line. The proof is in the pudding. I mean That minutes up and down. You can't ask for consistency but situations and you hang situation. Act like they draft the oldest team in the You first gave me the driver's seat and every play was rented and some league. And then don't Mike Jordan coming back and then now it's the focus shifts one that's developed this young guy to we gotTa Win Right now and nobody likes to talk about it but the truth is just that and you know I know. A lot of people are afraid to go against Mj To attack a young kid. 'cause I had no representation and that's what I what I was saying earlier. Didn't have the publicist didn't have a five. I didn't have all that so I just sit back and take it because I was getting paid a lot so I'm not gonNA say they're playing most nineteen year old college eating Lama News. So I'm not gonNA take the plane that's not me. That's not my make so I'm GonNa make the best of the situation. I turned myself into rebounded You can look at some of the things I did with basketball before I got to Washington. I brought bought the court and did anything I wanted you put on. Mj came back to the dunker. So you know but still play. I tried to figure it out when Doug College team. I've had one of my best sneezing. Kwami Brown is with us very insightful. Very real conversation with Kwami and when we come back on the other side will continue talking about his career. He moved onto the Los Angeles Lakers. And we'll talk about other aspects of his life. I think you can tell just from this conversation. How honest and how direct. He is being with his response as we continue across the country and around the world can't get enough of your team. Sp nations three hundred team. Regional and sportscenter communities are built. Just for you join your fellow. Fans ESTIMATION DOT com for all the best sports news ESPY NATION DOT COM. Your team your community is it can miss the winning dunk and cost your team championship. What are your thoughts well? I switched to boost mobile and got a super fast network for Free Samsung Galaxy phones. So even where we lose. I still win. It wasn't easy fastbreak and no one was near. You know what's fast who smoke a super fast network there calling your shot. The greatest myths in history boost. Mobile's prices are never missed. I even get four lines for twenty five dollars per line per month. Oh look that the fans are Burning Your Jersey. Yup the famous get it my boost mobile. 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Tell them about the brands that work for you and even let them know what types of styles you prefer. States fixes convenient. You get great clothes delivered right so you so you can try new styles on in the comfort of your own home and make a decision without any pressure. Ants this fixes on your terms and price match your budget. There's no subscription required. Ever he puts you want and send back anything. You don't Sup. Isn't it time you got it all together get started today at Stitch. Fix Dot Com specifics. Personal styling for men. Women and kids stitch fix personal styling for everybody. This is America's Sports Talk. Show sports byline. Usa here's Ron Bar. Wami Brown has joined us here on sports byline. Usa Center who was the first overall pick in the two thousand one NBA draft by the Washington Wizards the lifestyle the NBA. Certainly much. Different than what you've found in Brunswick Georgia I'm sure. Tell me about the adjustment to that. The biggest adjustment for any player is GONNA be Number one travel and number two the popularity. You Know Me. I was more reserved person. I didn't like to hang with a big group. That's you know now. I had to find myself after my first year second year I had to have people around. Because it's like you can't go to the grocery store he thing anywhere or you know you're GonNa be mobbed especially being the number one pick and death attached to you know Michael Jordan so But that wasn't me I always. I'm a people person so I got drafted. I got the key to the city and I am not first speech. Was You know I'm I'm no different than you are? I'm just like you and I now looking back on out so far from the truth because like I said essentially the Audi and they'd never seen me at them. You know you have that much money. They're never going to see you. Yes I got sugar Ray Leonard and I had a conversation about that I said what was it like when you go home. He said people would have their hands out They get upset with me if I didn't give them the time that they'd like to have. And I had a source story. It said he was hounded by neighbors and strangers. Who wanted favors or money or just a hang around old friends resented if if he didn't call or show them enough attention every local high school or school principal insisted that he comes. Speak to the student body when he tried to say no they would scold him for being too good for. Brunswick you data deal with a lot. Didn't you do it? The police perceive me has long way. So I would get pulled over. I had to deal with Going to the old neighborhood you know I got some fits fights and you know that nature. I've been lied on women. All it all boils down to make it turns you into a bit of person some scientists that you'd be a victim of you know like. I said I was never naive. I just always wanted to be around the same loved ones and friends. But they're looking at you and you're going up and then that sometimes they'll either try to pull you down or try to make their problem. You're probably so it was a lot of dealing with that and a lot of isolation because it makes you not wanna be out by. Did you have anybody that you could help us? Sort through all of this with you know because no one knew what it was like me. I was one of one. Nineteen year old kid. You know. They're writing all these negative articles. People didn't go to college. Don't think he deserved what you have. And so the jealousy a lot of the articles that was written about me. I take a lot of times field jealousy. you've got these reporters who you know feel like. Oh this is the dominant educated kid. Who's making all this money? You don't deserve that so then internalize it and then they pan is therefore you know. None of this stuff is true. Nine this stuff is real. I graduated woody point. Oh Gpa you can look it up. I got myself qualified for a great school and University of Florida. All you know my doors being kicked in my brother selling drugs Tab the method Washer and Dryer. I gotTa pick up the pieces and going to school so like I said you know my reality my strengthened. My perseverance is a story that should be told from that perspective. To help these young kids Then then to be told about basketball in two thousand five you were traded to the Los Angeles Lakers. What was your reaction to that? And also what do you anticipate? Maybe the West Coast being like as compared to the east coast. America's longtime come in the Washington Wizards allow and all these people right so many negative articles about me and behind closed doors. I'm begging to be traded. But they're saying no Until blow happening between me and Gilbert Arenas Dan Courtney to which age and you know he's probably GonNa get your sixty million and all this other stuff. I said no so. Then give it away and if you look back to when we played Chicago. I'm having a great Playoff series after that you know. They say funding They brought given day. You know so you can do no wrong. He's like a spoiled kid and we don't think kid they bring down so locker room. You Know Phil Jackson. Of course down with the Los Angeles Lakers at that time. Had you ever met him before in if now? What was your impression of the first time you did? Kwami a great. He's laid back folks. Act them what made him do some of the stuff he would do and all the stuff that he was doing the more they look at. You don't speak and then come back into the room and act like it was her time and they only speak to play with your mind a little bit and actually one day. What make you a great coach? And not the other coaches and I have a bad memory and at that time I didn't understand it but now I do but you know dealing with so many different coaching Your around you know each other so much that if you hang on To every little thing somebody does and you'll never forgiven that. You'RE GONNA kick the player in the doghouse forever. 'cause he controls you minute you know if you're going to have a working relationship you don't have to like a player you don't have to speak to them off the court but you're gonNA have a working relationship. You have to know whatever about winning winning. Which is your ultimate goal. Los Angeles certainly a different time. Of course they had the Lakers. Showtime Lakers as well different time than what you're going to find in Washington DC. What was the basketball atmosphere? Like with the Lakers when you were with them at first kind. Negative surrounding the whole shacked The project and You know and then you you bring a guy in towns of media you know. They already played the fans opinion before they did So You know you're GONNA go check chronic down there like Oh but if you look at me in the marketplace and terrific basketball look healthy I'm played some of my best out there like I remember So that can play. There's a movie called inside man. We played that before we played Phoenix Suns. And I didn't know what he's talking about giving me the basketball and the post but That's what ended up happening. I had had a really good serious. That you certainly. You had Kobe to be someone productive for you on the Lakers team. Tell me a little bit about what you saw in him. And of course Comparative you can't a little bit to Michael Jordan with Washington. Well I imagine if I would have met Michael. When do they can Kobe with the carbon copy They they walked saying they talk and saying the competitive nature the same Yeah they're pretty much the same. I mean Thirty two cardinals competitive players both in practice. I mean I remember 'em debt thirty nine eight planned meeting one on one before the prego you know. Get CHEAP WIN. But it was cool. I was giving it to them. I think I got led six zero before he fouled said rookie. Don't get cold. And then he over and started making us out I've never seen before one of the commonalities between the two and correct me. If you think I'm wrong about this kwami was that I remember in talking to Michael We were talking about his. You know his attitude toward playing basketball and he said Ron when the game is on the line. I WANNA be the one to determine the outcome if I succeed. I want the glory if I fail. I'll take the blame and I think you know as well as I do. Not everybody particularly athletes WanNa be put in that type of position was that a similarity that the two had. Oh Yeah I think. Kobe wanted more than just ahead of the game chat. Mike Michael Definitely You better not the ball unless he make happy for your Laptop Koby he's GonNa call volume being tag day. You know that's a very interesting point that you make because if Kobe is getting the ball most of the time how hard is it for you or for other players to get into site to some type of rhythm of the game then gotTa Trick Yourself. Mentally fans don't understand how hard they claim with guys that great You have to find other things to do. I play defense rebound. I think that And even now. I think I'm probably would be one of the better posted this league. They wouldn't I started off as a powerful Size three and By the time I finished I was shocked. One on one in the post. Y'All meeting one on one. The Post and they all knew. I think that the challenge anybody that you know that forward I was GONNA hold them. What do all the good players the big man? I'm talking about Kwami like yourself and like the ones you just mentioned. What is it that they all do well consistently You know I remember playing Elton Brand Year where he was having a Mazda year and the clippers and I think he was the hardest hardest hit dog that year to me and I always everybody. But he just consistently carried on both into offensive rebound. He was running underneath around shoveling. You out of the way getting vive out and then he was coming down the other day and you know sprint and floors hitting a jump shot He was great so I think the true good player. They just never having a head and they always the role of the big man and the center has really changed in professional basketball. Why was that and what do you think that role for the Big Guy is today? The role now They just want you to rebound We changed so much for God that it's so hard to guard a point or a three guard guy being so song and now you have no handshake and freedom of movement. You gotta let guys get to the states. And so if the point I don't think you remember when Detroit Pistons if teams seventy nine to seventy and playing great basketball. My my point of view. Because that's how you play that park. He goes. You're not allowed to have to start gardening. You hit them. And you'RE GONNA play you'RE GONNA pay for real so I think you'll have to generate more excitement and you know here we all with the Golden State Warriors. Is that good for the game in your opinion kwami. There's good for me. I mean it puts fans in the seats. And that's what it's all about. I mean Knock it and say it's not real basketball but you get to see you know some real town. I mean I do think they need to allow the sender to touch the guy a little more because they I mean they just he can't Abaci. You can't touch them. It's to tax but in the playoffs I think they let them play to version anything. You've had a chance to kind of reflect on your career and where you come through life and everything as you look back on it. What makes you smile? Or what makes you kind of frown? A little bit. Well coming from where I came from. You know I smell every day It was held to get to the NBA licensor ups and downs and You know I was really low and now it's really high only find out. I was going to be really no again because I stated when that plan and all that good stuff but you know now I find billy and being to get back then kidding it's fundamental again and now have children things so and now. I'm into big three though I still can enjoy the game. Know who knows what can happen. You know with the platform with big. Let's talk a little bit about the balance in your life because you sound as you said happy and everything and after all you went through. How did you keep the positive liberty of your thoughts? You know going through so much early on you know God. Only give you so much that you can handle. I mean You know going through the childhood that I went through. I think I was tightened channel. Eighty curry wouldn't have been able to be the number one picking through what I went through. I think I was the right guy for the job. Because of all that for around that You know title. Janna got a chance to to have a career and if you look at your two. He got but what year. He made five points five rebounds and they gave them sixty million still potential and I had. I think I was at seven or eight points but because I was the number one pick they act like it was a real different but I just don't think people do numbers as well because that is going to mean a world of difference and it's not gonna be out potential but In hindsight I wish I was giving the keys to either make a break myself but not you know play in the shadows but then J. but I feel appreciated comedy people can say they played along the door. When you look back over your life and your career to this particular point is there one Kwami in which you will always have engraved in your mind that you will never forget long. I appreciate every day. Nba for But I think they I remember Michael Jordan is gone. He was just forty birthdays. Forty five points and I just remember we celebrate and there was little happy won the game and then he signed motions being gave them typically so I think that was one of the special moments I let you go through the top times a kept you going because you play double digit years of professional basketball and could not have been easy off of what you told me but you know me out the media and Because I knew they didn't know me and I never stopped believing in my game. I challenge so I always go back to when I played in La. When I was healthy people just put together series of my numbers. What I played thirty minutes. You'll see that they consisted People don't even like the media went away. I WAS IN CHARLOTTE. I was older and my career Played some great basketball. I I got a chance to play pro salad. You know he would take me out if I did cheat the ball so like be program me from the whole Doug. How long Just rebound the ball. I facing basketball show but you know my agent said man. I wish he'd be on the wall. You know tires. Time has got forty million dollars for the same number that you just put up and They're saying you do it again instead of panicking. Because they're afraid that fan they're going to be negative with the team gets paid that much. I WanNa thank you for your honesty and your directness. I have thoroughly enjoyed this comeback and join me again on sports byline artifact Kwami Brown again center who was the first overall pick of the two thousand one draft a teenager the first one to be a teenager and be picked overall number one in the NBA. We continue on sports byline not too long ago. It felt good to withdraw your cash from the bank. Didn't it for a vacation or a new car? But today withdrawing your own cash has become risky Pat Boone here for Swiss America according to the secret war new Swiss America White Paper. I learned that all banks are now required to spy on you and me for the government and then report any financial behavior deemed suspicious or unusual. You must read the secret war. It's free truth is I. Believe the government's new war against cash is really a war against us all but the secret is now out so please get and read the war. Pick up your phone and call right now. Eight hundred nine three to five five one seven eight hundred nine three to five five one seven eight hundred nine three to five five one seven once again. That's eight hundred nine. Three two fifty five seventeen remember in the beginning when you first started to build a life for you and your family. You never imagined it would come to this instead of living your dreams. You'RE LIVING WITH DEBT. In fact it's smothering you now. There's a way you can take back control with one. 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But when you are in pain there is one product that I recommend to my patients and that is Blue Goo Gel blue goo consists of a proprietary formula developed specifically for the treatment of inflammation and general muscle aches and strains I recommend blue for my patients coping with hip and knee pain before surgery especially bursitis and tendinitis give blue. Go TRY CALL ONE. Eight eight eight three three zero zero one two three. And you'll receive a one week supply of Blue Goo absolutely free. The makers of blue or even paying the shipping. The number again is one eight. Eight eight three three zero zero one two three if you want more information on Blue Goo visit online at. Www DOT DU dot com now available at select the big five stores near you. This is America Sports Talk Show Sports Byline USA. Here's Ron border. That's going to wrap up this hour. Sports byline where we talk basketball great coach and also player that left his mark in the NBA. Wami Brown was with a center. Who's the first overall pick in the two thousand one? Nba draft by the wizards and was the first number one. Pick to be selected straight out of high school he played twelve years in the NBA but really did not overwhelm people with size or his talent he played for the Wizard Lakers Pistons Bob Cats warriors in Sixers and you heard him talk about the challenges. He had especially in the early part of his career. And we shared with you our interview with the late. Raleigh Mass Amino you died in August of two thousand seventeen but he also pulled off one of the biggest if not the biggest NC double a championship game upset when his Villanova team knocked off. Georgetown in the title game. I'm Ron Bar. Thanks for being a part of America's sports talk show. Lou Landers outlandish talks on twitter. And I'm Ron mcleese and mad dog on twitter. You can join us every weekend on sports over night America Fridays right here on Sports Byline USA Siriusxm to let you're listening to the News Radio Network Broadcasting. Live tweet for seven over. The Stream is supported by advertisers and contributions by follow us on facebook twitter and Instagram's this is the liberty your daily source for liberty news and activists updates produced in partnership with the SNL s network and listeners like you online at snl s network Dot Com. I'm MIC Murrow with your latest edition of the Liberty beat Golden Trading at one thousand six hundred forty dollars so over at eighteen dollars. Six cents and Bitcoin is trading around nine thousand. Two hundred ten dollars. Today's gold silver in Bitcoin. Prices are brought to you by brave botanical high-quality crate him and CBD at reasonable prices with excellent customer service. Brave botanical is activist tone and mission driven the liberty meat and brave botanical. Believe so strongly in the power of crater. We're giving it away for free. Just go to liberty dot news slash free create. This is the liberty beat at s network dot com in the news as East Asian countries continued to struggle with the spreading corona virus. A senior member of the International Olympic Committee has warned that the Tokyo Olympic Games may be cancelled if authorities fell to contain it spread within the next two to three months long standing IOT MEMBER. Dick Pound told the Associated Press on Tuesday. That have fears. Aren't calm by around. May organizers would have no choice but to cancel the games rather than postpone or move them cincy. Viral outbreak began in China. Two months ago over eighty thousand people have been infected worldwide with two thousand seven hundred dying mostly in China however NHK world reports that as of Tuesday eight hundred sixty. One People in Japan are confirmed to be infected. Japan has reported four deaths so far. We'll have more on the corona virus coming up ever wonder were refined all the news to report right here in the liberty meet visit. Snl S. DOT news to get the world's most censored media published in one place. Save yourself from the endless time. Spent SEARCHING FOR RELIABLE UNITIVE media S. News makes it quick and easy. No ADS NO CLICK BAIT JEST ROLE HEADLINES. Twenty four hours a day visit. Snl DOT news and get informed today without the corporate media. Spend your news now continues while mom and dad on mainstream still aren't getting the dire warning that the corona virus has been offering up to Asia and the rest of the eastern world over the last several weeks. Perhaps a light bulb will finally go off when John Q. Public heads to the grocery store and does enable to buy shampoo and toothpaste activists post reports at proctor and gamble. One of the world's biggest everyday product manufacturers has now officially warned that seventeen thousand six hundred of its products could be affected and disrupted by the Corona virus the company's CFO. John Muller said at a reason conference that procter and gamble used three hundred eighty seven suppliers across China shipping more than nine thousand materials according to CIP dot. Org Muller said. The each of the suppliers faces their own challenges in resuming operations and it's not just everyday consumer goods that are going to be feeling. The impact of the virus. Federal law enforcement in Seattle sought an average of one court order a day to disclose people's sensitive information such as calling history in the first half. Twenty nine thousand nine. According to a report released this year the report the first of its kind by the US District Court for the western district of Washington shows. That officials sought one hundred eighty two applications and orders for electronic surveillance between January and June. Twenty one thousand nine hundred activists post reports that such surveillance orders do not require law enforcement to get a warrant and are directed to third parties like phone companies email providers and other online services to demand private in revealing information about their users although the report does not provide specifics on the services or individuals. Targeted by the surveillance orders. It does detail how federal law enforcement in the region or using various forms of surveillance. The report is a result of a lawsuit by client. The Stranger support for the liberty is brought to you by the homestead guru. The homestead guru is an educational website offering tips tools news stories and commentary on everything home. Standing topics include homes gardening. Animal husband drink. Do It yourself home. Remedies Alternative Energy Survival Ism on schooling and more. Those details are found online at the homestead dot guru. This is the libby powered by the network at SNL LAST NETWORK DOT com. I'm MIC murrow reporting for the liberty. Beat reminding you spread liberty with a smile sports anywhere anytime with you and we even give you free installation and free premium movie channels. Don't wait call national programming service right now. You could be oven running and watching your favorite sports in shows in just a few hours. Remember call in the next ten minutes and ask about our special radio offer and learn about free installation call right now. Eight hundred four seven seven one one. Three eight hundred four seven seven one one three eight hundred four seven seven one one three. That's eight hundred. Four seven seventy one thirteen why worldwide sports byline USA? And here's host Ron Bucks and good to have you along for the ride for this hour of sports byline very interesting. Our coming up. I are always enjoy the interview process. One of the reasons why I do and I've been doing that since I was twelve years old. That's when I got kind of bitten by the bug to interview people. I remember I was in the sixth grade. I had an opportunity to fill in for somebody who had gotten sick and they asked me if I could interview. I forget who the person was and I said of course I could do it even though I'd never done it before. And then the first time and serious nature. I interviewed somebody was John Plod. The Olympic Ski champion and I remember my aunt was with being. I did it down at a hotel in Washington DC. Which was where I was born and I remember interviewing him and my aunt said to me afterwards. Because I was about the at that time I think it was sixteen years old. She asked me. How did you know what the ask him and I said I don't know I just wanted to have a conversation with him and I've tried to be that way throughout my entire career. Just have a conversation with people. Because I've found that the fans out there while we can appreciate the efforts and the successes and failures of athletes. I think the thing that they can relate to more than anything else as the human aspect of it. Now you can't relate to how you hit a ninety five mile. An hour fastball or sink of three point shot at a crucial moment but the human aspect. What got them to where they are today. As far as playing sports or were they were when they did a sports as well. The background on a lot of these athletes is extremely interesting. I also get a lot of sports books across my desk and I love reading them. I think sports books give you a depth the stories that maybe you can get when you watch television or maybe not even in an interview as well and I got a book by Ed Henry and this is a for us at sports byline usually our guests. Our players coaches managers owners or commissioners. But Ed Henry is Fox News Channel's chief White House correspondent and he has written a book about Jackie. Robinson called forty two faith. You're going to find this fascinating and interesting then right after that Sheldon Hirsch is going to be with us As I said I love sports books especially the ones that make you. Think and Sheldon Hirsch has written a book. It's called hot hands draft hype and Dimaggio's streak debunking America's favorite sports myths. I think you'll really enjoy this. So we're ready to crank it up when we come back on the other side. Ed Henry will be here to talk about his book. Forty-two faith on sports byline. Don't go out to eat. Go OUT TO EAT AT. Chili's chicken or shrimp. The heaters are now on three for ten. So here that chickens or that. Shrimp sizzle similar people laughing and having fun Gary. Maybe it's a bit much. Sorry just kidding Gary Truth out to eat at Chili's for three for ten. That's a starter for he and Co offer ten bucks together we chilies. 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Statistics is convenient. You get great clothes delivered writing so you can try new styles on in the comfort of your own home and make a decision without any pressure ants. This fixed is on your terms and price to match your budget. There's no subscription required. Ever what you want and send back anything you don't so there isn't a time you got it all together get started today at stitch fix dot com stitch fix personal styling for men women and kids statistics personal styling for everybody a little story about boost. Mobile Davis I am feeling pain. What your dog die your girlfriend left. You know the pain. I'm feeling is having an old smartphone. And that's why I switched to boost mobile and got four free phones for twenty five dollars per line will. I didn't without those mobile. I got an old phone in my life say I feel so alone? Switching to boost getting for phone full free Samsung Galaxy for my whole family. E switch to boost mobile and get four lines for twenty five dollars per line per month with unlimited data and four free. Samsung Galaxy phones. All in our super reliable superfast network. Step up with these mobile new customers. Only limited time offer while supplies last requires multiple carrier not division one device per line customers. Who IS MORE THAN THIRTY? Five gigabytes data during Billing de prioritize during times of Network congestion offers and coverage not available everywhere dot com. This is America's Sports Talk. Show sports byline. Usa here's Ron. Henry joins us on sports byline. And this is a first for us because usually our guests. Our players coaches managers owners commissioners. But Ed Henry is Fox News Channel's chief White House correspondent and I thought we class up the show a bit. He's written a book about Jackie. Robinson called forty two faith what motivated you add a news guy to write a book about Robinson who is one of the icons baseball. It's a great question. I'm a major baseball fan. I've really got a passion for the game but I never thought I'd write a book certainly not about a dodger because I go up gang span but I came upon this accidentally really ten years ago. October two thousand seven. I'm a young reporter in Washington and I'm invited to this big dinner at the Belgium bassus house and I thought wow it made. There's going to be a big dinner. It'd be fun it's fancy pants off. Work Strike One and baseball pilots was when I sat down. I heard that Belgium ambassador say at his home but he was serving pigeon. Now I learned later that There's a fancy term for this and someone has fancies yourself by no kids like me from the story of Queen. I don't know it's called squabble. It's actually a delicacy. I see Belgium But you know growing up derrick city and then long island thought what are the what I could think about what these dirty birds at pigeons. Okay except straight to is. It's basically got these little bones and you pick it out. Strike three was. This is a relatively small dinner. Party a senator. Was there getting awards and as want to happen in Washington rather than just giving us a two or three minute. Thank you gracious senator. Basically it's all of us for twenty minutes or something and so a strike three. I turned to the woman next to me. And I. It's really Nice. But I'M GONNA leave before desert because the world series is on it was the rockies and the red sox. I didn't really have a dog in the fight but I said I was taking off woman said. Are you baseball fan? I yeah she said my late. Father in law put a major role in baseball history. But the story's never been told now I know you like I would sit back down and I get. And what are you talking about? This woman said Donna. Shore was named. She said that her father in law was minister at Brooklyn in nineteen forty five and there was a knock at the door. One day secretary calls up to the second floor. Says advantage theory has a problem. He needs to see the minister right away. Send-up administers doing work at his desk. The band says in a state of despair. I need to think of this I I need to be alone. My boss finishes. I'll keep doing my work event. Paces he sits county standards up he size. He faces more he prays after forty. Five minutes of this demand. Finally Slams this down says I've got it grabs. His hat starts to walk out And as the woman told me she said what do you mean out with it? You have to tell me after all my patients here and she and she turned to me and said do you know who that man was and I said well so. It's nineteen forty five branch rickey because he signed Jackie the first binary contract with Montreal oils forty she said Yep branch rickey secretly had second thoughts about whether he can really go through signing Jackie that first contract and he didn't want to tell anyone so you had the secret meeting with the minister and at the end of the meeting. He said I've decided to sign up to. I contract most difficult decision in my life I needed to be in your presence with. He said administer. I need to be in God's presence to doubt it was the right thing to do. Now I said come on how? How is this true? And that's a reporter. You know again. This is ten years ago. I have a day job as you said so. I can't focus on my energies on tracking down a baseball story from nineteen forty five but obviously as you also. This is not just a baseball story about civil rights. It's about America. It's about faith in God and so I started collecting string on this over time and learn that the minister before he died in the early sixties told his wife about it. Obviously he kept the conversation confidential As ministers do but he wanted he didn't want it to be lost on history so his wife sat on it until branch rickey the mid sixties and wrote a five page essay put a church bulletin and by the way the Churches Plymouth Church Brooklyn Heights. Very famous church still standing. Today it was a stop on the underground railroad in the eighteen hundreds. So there's a lot of symbolism here and it sent me on a journey to say gamma political reporter but I wanNA write the story about faith not just baseball And figure out how pivotal was speed and branch. Rickey decision making this move that integrated baseball the changed America. And maybe more importantly how Portland state the Jackie Robinson. You know it's interesting. You bring that up because when I launch sports byline as the first national sports. Talk Radio Network back in nineteen eighty eight. I asked him if won't be my very first guest and now we weren't friends but he said yes and he flew in from Reno or he was appearing and and came into the studio. We were only two hours a night Monday through Friday and it was the Great Willie. Mays and we talk baseball for an hour. But I want to ask you and if you came away with the research that you did on this book and knowing what you found out about Jackie Robinson what did you come away with. As far as his feeling about the times and what he was trying to do because the first question I asked Willie said will you were sixteen years old. You grew up in Alabama not a particularly openminded time in this country. How hard was it for you to play baseball with a passion for the game? I know what his answer was. And I'm just wondering what you sensed. It was like for for Jackie Robinson. During that time well it was probably harder because for my research and then slowly base hank there. You've heard many others who came after Jackie. Who said they? They're not sure they would have been able to withstand on pressure and punishment and attack. That he's as I mean you know he wasn't just having racial epithets shouted at him. He was having his life literally endanger and so The reason why I tied the eight year they see no. Jackie had a spot. It was a Methodist Valley. Roberts is it still faith him in early? Age and Jackie then joined a gang though. Because he's raised by a single bombs. Dad Wasn't around at Pasadena And remember he joined a gang and you may or may not go and it was a reverend April down at the Methodist Church in Pasadena. One of many stops on the research for. Who said look? You've got this great talent. Four letter man at Ucla. What he turned out to pick you. You've got so much athlete account going to waste this unless you get on the right path. So Jackie even after starting the Gridiron at Ucla for example on Saturdays years later would still get out of bed on Sunday morning and go teach Sunday school at the reverend downs. Church the commitment that ever down that to him so the answer a question about how hard it was for. Jackie I think he discrimination throughout his entire life but they were technically no Jim Crow laws passed but is it very racist town of he faced one discrimination after another And I think he was primed to deal with the pressure maybe uniquely qualified. And that's what branch Rickey did. I founded my research. That he sent he secretly soundly scouts. Like by Suport for you know all about And didn't even really tell them what he was doing. And what the end result was going to be but said he wanted to include Negro League stars in his reports As well as some Latin players and others and he didn't just have them look at. You Know Kenny Kenny. Throw the ball from the whole shortstop first base. He also wanted to know about their faith. He wanted to know whether or not they had a girlfriend or a wife. Because Ricky was planning all out very carefully not just this meeting with minister but finding out if someone like. Jackie Robinson have a support network when the pressure got hot you know he had Rachel there by his side and as you know. She's still alive and she was one of the most important pieces of this whole story so. I think the answer question Jackie facing be pressures but maybe he was uniquely qualified to handle it and branch. Rickey do that was. Jackie committed to playing baseball when he was offered the opportunity by branch. Rickey or did it take some persuading. It took persuading sensitive simply. Do not believe that it was real. I tap into some of his personal writings and just papers at the Library of Congress. And what's interesting is Jackie You know talks very openly about a train ride from Chicago where he got a tap on the shoulder from that Scout. Clyde Suport. Who's who told him at equally game. Hey Robertson come over here and you standing at the railing and say company get the Stevens Hotel the Stevens Hotel Because I wanNA talk to you and to actually I am. You Know I. I've heard this before. He approached by other major league teams and it was all Mirage. So Jackie in his personal writing said that when he when soup fourth gained his trust and finally got him on a train from Chicago to Brooklyn beat with branch rickey in August of forty five. For the first time he simply didn't believe it because remember another piece that I that I learned is that it's a red sox had called Jackie and a couple of players in for a tryout before he met with ricky months before and it was basically a sham trial. They struggled along they strongly guys long saying. Oh we really want you to play the big. They were just doing it for show. They were doing a pay for public relations. And Jackie had that tryout at fenway the fame segue arts. There was somebody in the crowd. It was believed to be maybe even achieve objective. It was never fully confirmed shouting the N. Word and other things so they weren't serious about it so that's our question you know. Jackie was short. It was real. What's branch rickey? Sat him down to fifteen monetary st right near where? I'm standing by the way because it was just a bet with Jackie Robinson surviving son David Robinson ahead of the seventieth anniversary of Jackie's first game and steal. Once you know branch Rickey Convinced. This was for real. He didn't eat that much convincing. Finally he realize wait a second. This is my date with destiny. We only have about forty seconds before we have to break. How his Brooklyn play into this? As far as the story Carl Erskine is one of the last surviving quickly. Listen to Anderson the ninety or so sharp attack. He was very helpful debate their baseball fan. You'll love to say because of all the baseball stories erskine and others tell what he tells me. Pointblank is that this could have happened anywhere but Brooklyn because it was such a melting pot. Remember a branch rickey had created the FARM SYSTEM. You know had co created the minor leagues as an executive in. Saint Louis. Long before he was a Saint Louis was donald melting pot dot back in the twenties thirties forties but Brooklyn was and is an it. Prowler skin. Somebody who was there. You don't have to take it from me. Says that Brooklyn was critical element to this and Henry is with us. We're talking about his outstanding book. It's called forty two faith. I want to urge everybody to check it out or give you a wonderful look. See at a man. That was a pioneer when it came to Major League Baseball and also it was a difficult time in this country. And we're GONNA make it a selection of the month on the sports byline book corner. We continue across the country and around the world. 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Three seven four nine one eight hundred five nine three seven four nine one call now. This is America's sports talk show sports byline USA. Here's Ron Bar at Henry is with us on sports byline again. I hope you'll check out this book. It is just an excellent read. It's called forty-two faith. You mentioned about Rachel and of course. She was kind of quiet soldier in the background. But during his darkest hours and making this transition and and being a pioneer and breaking the color barrier. How did she fit into this? What did she do well? She was by his side and one of the most remarkable things that I founded by research. And the reason why we call it. Forty two fake because of Jackie. Strong faith in God that sustained him he had raped so by his side and she had and still has a strong faith and one of the stories. She likes to tell. Isn't that rookie season of nineteen forty seven? I tell you two stories want it. Forty seven Rachel remembers every night after Chemo. Bevis Field Jackie would come home to their apartment and he would kneel down and zombies and pray to God just like his mother taught in Pasadena to maybe you know. Reflect on what had happened that day out of abuse. It had maybe some of the good things that had happened on bill And and maybe get something this book a day ahead the second story. I'll tell you that was about faith and more about pure guts. And that's Rachel. Robinson in the fifties tagged along with her husband in eating with Walter Valley and the owner of the daughters obviously got very controversial when he's actually moved into Los Angeles that's a whole nother story. We can talk about but basically Mr Valley was riding jackets for saying he had an injury missing a couple of spring training games and he ride Jackie riding. Jackie finally Rachel jumped in he. Maybe o'malley bought that Rachel Shrinking Violet as an African American woman in the fifties. She listened and finally said. You know I've had enough of this. You Know Jackie bus but he does this. He does that all. He does bleed dodger blue. He stands up for his teammates. He stood up to the entire establishment and she read him the riot. Act And recounted in forty two what that shows me is. This was obviously not just racial discrimination. But a time when women were not expected to kind of speak up especially not to the white owner of the world famous book dodgers but Rachel Robinson just like her husband was fearless. You know another person that I've heard as instrumental in his early days in Major League Baseball. With the Dodgers pee wee. Reese tell me a little bit about him in that story because a lot of people may not know reese did. Yeah well you know. It's funny because he was serving the navy heading home on a ship near the end of World War. Two and it came crackling through a radio that the dodgers at signed this young African American player to a minor league contract. One of pee wee reese's comrades Said Hey did you hear you know your dodgers? You're going back to you. Know be signed a black player And guess what he we. He's the shortstop. Because at that time and bigger lease Jackson shortstop of course he ended up beginning with the dodgers. First Baseman. Really starring. A second base never really got deletes way to keep a close friend but two points one is he says you know. And he's now launched. Its past but he would call that. He was a nervous wreck. The Jackie was GONNA take his job. Essentially not just that he that he would lose the post at shortstop. Put that the Folks Back Home in Louisville Kentucky riding for saying what completely and took your job this with the Times in America and he we felt that I talked to Larry King Broadcaster. Who Do real well before he got to pee. We felt that because it came on a Jackie's closest friends but the forties. You know he was nervous. That the folks back home in Kentucky. We're really going to ride them. But then of course. There's this kind of legend about that. Rookie season of forty seven then. The peewee allegedly threw his arm around. Jackie Cincinnati I there's been dispute about that. What I think inclusion I come to the book is the Peewee who later became the captain of course did show great leadership and stood up for Jackie. It did throw his arm around him but more likely to happen in nineteen forty eight in Boston and the source I after that is Jackie Robinson himself. I did extensive research and founded magazine Article. The Jackie himself wrote in the fifties where he recounted while there is a statue as you know Allegedly depicting you know. Something happened in sixty forty seven. Remember that as noted. Jackie was playing first base. Forty-seven seconds so. It's unlikely that while Jackie was being written by by some fans that he would have left the shortstop position over at first base in forty seven to put his arm around him. More likely in forty eight Jacky was now at second base. Peewee came over and sold him. The point is regardless of which year in which city is that peewee ratio. Great Guts in standing up as a white man for his teammate. And saying enough is enough. Cut out the abuse and that was a leadership moment. That stuck with Jackie and stuff with a lot of people. That's the story I had heard as well briefly. Tell me a little bit about how the fans of baseball received. Jackie not just in Brooklyn but around the league. Well you know one of the things. That's interesting is France freaky. The general manager of the dodgers we talked about at the top with sometimes jive Particularly by African American journalists for only being motivated not by white or black book by greed. Buddy saying look All he wants to bring more black fans and ebbets field. Ricky swore that that was not the case but I do think it was a kind of thing whether it was intended or not. It was a byproduct of Jackie coming out to play two things number one. A lot of African American cancer previously a bother to go to ebbets field or Cincinnati. They stadiums all around the country callers in the picture members Told me that he remembers play game at Cincinnati where there were these special trains In the Mid West event it click games in the south were special trains put together for African Americans coming from Birmingham and other cities were there. Were not basically can't taking them walk to Cincinnati or somewhere else to see yes. Jackie Robinson play so many of these owners of the opposing teams that had opposed integration of the game ended up making a ton of money. Jackie Roberts it's back because Jackie something to their stadium whether it be in Cincinnati or Saint Louis a lot of new fans awkward. But I would be remiss if I didn't mention that one of the key characters by book is Jerry. Line store The owner of the Chicago Chicago Bulls who was a kid flatbush. Eleven years old. It's Akis first game and recounts everything about ebbets field for being forty to say but he also knows that. Look as a white kid growing up in Brooklyn. He couldn't care less about Jackie skin. He just wanted a good player. Who'S GONNA find? We put the bombs over the top. I think that's what's fascinating is research that the kids in Brooklyn got it before many of the adults. They said we just want somebody who's going to help them. Finally that darn world series white black or whatever and you know rather than giving into the racial business a lot of kids like Jerry Lambsdorff at the age of eleven flatbush. They could care less as long as the guy can hit the ball. Who CARES SWEATER BLACK? You know it took a lot of the rest of the country. Maybe they're a lot longer to figure that out but I think some of the kids actually got it before the adults. We only have about two and a half minutes and I want to talk about something in your book. You say well I was covering President Obama for CNN. In March two thousand eleven. I had a chance to attend off the record cocktail party with him at the White House. From the outside it probably appeared as if there was not much love lost between the two of us. That's why the private conversation. We had the night in the historic Cross Hall of the White House About Jackie. Robinson was so remarkable and he talked about the president. Saying I want you to tell her meaning Rachel Robinson something for me. Tell her I believe there is a straight line from what Jackie did to me. Being elected the first African American president. I want you to tell her that you know when I read that. I got goosebumps. Yeah it was moving to be. It's rare for any president to say to return to your sent a message to someone particularly because you know we had some back and forth when I was covering just like you know White House. Correspondents Do But this wasn't a buddy buddy thing it was just him saying look. I want you to send this message. It reminded me of the gravity of Jackie. Robinson's legacy and I think that is the key it transcends baseball in transcend sports. It's not just a civil rights story. It's not just a soaring that talked about. It's not just a baseball story. This is a man who also the NBA. Who BY THE WAY BILL? Russell was on the pallbearers. At Jackie's funeral and I keep seventy two for that reason he expanded it far beyond just baseball all the way into politics and our government because there would be a Barack Obama without Jackie Robinson. And so he opened the door. The door might have been cracked open by branch. Rickey cracking Jackie Robinson. Keep that door down in the minute. We have left. What do you want people to take away from this book? In that there were two men who were that Bradford Jackie Robinson. Who were I'll give for generations? It's different races came from different parts of the country. I talked about Pasadena where Jackie came of age. Ricky came up on a farm in Ohio along the Kentucky border so different generations different regions different races but they were bound together by baseball and a strong faith in God. If you put those two together there's about that's about as Americans if you've got. Are you happy with the way the book came out? I loved the cover of the book's fantastic. We've got the forty to their Jackie reaching for a ball as if he's reaching for Heaven's and that's worth forty two faith is all about and I just can't wait to your listeners. Get a chance to put their hands on it. Because I'm very proud of it and I really appreciate the time spent because I think your questions you very insightful. L look forward actually coming in and sit down with the and having a longer conversation I was just going to tell you I have so many more questions of you and I would enjoy a conversation in person very very much. You're welcome here anytime so I'll look forward to reaching out and let me know what your schedule is. Thank you ed yet. All right take care at Henry with us again. It is not a coach not a player Non Manager. Nana Commissioner is actually with Fox News Channel. These the chief White House correspondent and check out this book. It's one of the great books on Baseball on Sports. And it's called forty two faith. We continue across the country and around the world. It's good to have you here with us on America's sports talk show Isaac. He missed the winning dunk and cost your team that championship. What are your thoughts well? I switched to boost mobile and got a super fast network of four free Samsung Galaxy phones. So even when we lose I still win. 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This is America's Sports Talk Show Sports Byline USA appears Rod Bar Sheldon hearst joins us on sports. Byline. I love sports books that make you think and Sheldon Hershiser. Such a book. It's called hot hands draft hype and Dimaggio streak the bunking. America's favorite sports miss and it was written by Sheldon Hersh Pediatric Kidney Specialists. But also a self professed sports GEEK chairman. How did you get your Geek them? How did that come about well? You know I. I was born to man who was a sports geek Ed He was a calculus professor statistician so I grew up with a slide rule and reading box scores every day and playing strata matic And and never never stopped. I can imagine you probably in discussions with your friends about sports. Probably drive them crazy do you not. I think that's been said I mentioned my dad and my mom was a debate coach so I so I got that part of it too we I. I grew up in the house only with sports in numbers. But we're people. People were encouraged to speak their mind and and examined physicians. That other people set forth. And you know learn. Learn how to make your own good arguments yourself so that all fit together explained to me sports contrarian. Well I mean contrarian I think has a little bit of a negative connotation I would prefer to pull an open mindedness and what? I call a healthy skepticism. Now you mentioned that the frolics which is true and one of the things that you earn in science and in medicine is healthy skepticism. And what that means is that when People even in science and medicine tell you something instead of just saying hi. Yes that must be so you ask. What's the evidence and you have your mind open to the possibility that there may be other evidence or that the evidence that's given isn't quite what it seems seems so if you approach things with a healthy skepticism in medicine and life and certainly in sports you may very well find that there are lots of things that you're told about that may not hold up to good examination and so. I did that with my lifetime of sports. I've been a fan since nineteen sixty two In fact The the It's made it all night. My earliest memory is willing to cover hitting the line. Drive with two outs in the ninth inning of game seven of the San Francisco and Yankees World Series which for New York Fan. Fortunately went right at Bobby. Richardson but at any rate If you if you examine sports in that matter you you know you'll you'll find things that don't ring right and that's what form this book one of the things. I appreciate it about. The book is that we share a common philosophy. And I think you'll agree with this sheldon. I believe the two to four but I also believe you can get to three and one is four one and three is four and I don't think all people take a look at the different angles. I felt that this is what you were trying to do with the book. I think I appreciate that and I think that's a fair assessment. We tend to whole to what I'll call dogmas For example in in basketball is one good example of this It's sad that Russell Westbrook can't win a title. 'cause you can't win without without a pass first point guard or that you can't win without a superstar or that you can't win without three point shooting that you can't do this you can't do but I think the world and sports also more complicated than that and there are all sorts of different ways to to get to the same result and I hope that comes across in the book. Do you think sheldon than most people when it comes to an argument about anything. But we're talking sports here that they look at what they see and not the nuances of an issue. I think that's true and in part I think it depends how interested you are if you have if you have a superficial interest. That's as far as you want to go. But if you're really interested in something I think you really WanNa know what's true about it. What's not true about what the real explanations are What the new. Who is our WIA team won? Why team lost What are the different ways to get to four and I think that makes the whole experience much more rewarding much more interesting than just who wanted loss so I I would definitely agree with that one of the things? Also I liked is that you looked at some subject as I don't think most people would look at and let me just get into some of these and give us your reasoning and your thinking on on a couple of these. Does the hot hand which we hear so often exist in sports. But that's a really interesting topic because everyone who has ever an basketball but anyone who's ever played basketball absolutely knows for certain that there's a such thing as a hot against which means that for example if you hit two or three or four shots in a row the phrases you're in the zone and the next shot is much more likely to go in then say based on your usual shooting percentage. Well the interesting thing about this. Is that a lot of very smart people. And I'm talking about Nobel Prize. Winning types of people had studied this mathematically and found out that it actually is not the case so here you have on the one hand something that all sentient best people players feel in their bones and on the other hand. Some smart people studied academically. And say when exist so one of the things I did because it just didn't make sense to me as I looked at very carefully. Some of the best studies that have been purportedly. Sh show that a hockey and doesn't exist and I signed that they're flawed and go through that in the book Ending up with the suggestion. Matt These really smart accurate. Additions have not disproven hockey and and that may very well be that all the rest of us are right in Right you also talk about a couple of basketball issues that I was fascinated about you know as well as I do. People say so and so is the greatest of all time but the game is played in different errors different rules different players capabilities and one of the ones you address was would wilt Chamberlain dominate in the NBA. Today what did you come up with? Well there's a very interesting kind of dichotomy about athletes like wilt and that is this. We all go that. The bulk of athletes in any sport. Second percents time for the ninth. Get better over time. Today's athletes are buying large better than the ones fifty or sixty years ago. On the other hand if you take the very few athletes in the twenty first century who were two three four standard deviations beyond the me who stood well out At the very very edgy and the out curve. It's almost as if they reached a wall of human ability that physiologically can't be surpassed and I think wilt was one of those people. And you're not really just speculate usually when we compare athletes teams over different Where we're just speculating. But we have objective. Data will for example. We know how fast one hundred yard Dash. We know along rudge out pal. Hi Hijab we know how much he bench pressed. We know how how fast he ran the four forty. We know his height and weight. And I can tell you with certainty that there's no player in the NBA. Who Batches Wiltz combination of size strength and documented speed and leaping ability? And it's probably not going to happen in the future either. If anyone you know people may equal will people may someday surpass wealth by a Hair or very small amount. But it's going but we'll basically reached the wall of human ability. That's what I like about the book about about your explanation on this that you looked at the talented and I really think that. That's how issues like this and debates like this should be looked at the other one on basketball and it's one that I think has a lot of people still talking about and probably will in years to come comparing the ninety six Chicago Bulls to the two thousand sixteen warriors. Tell me about that one. Well of course You Know Steph Curry and the warriors got all this publicity very justly so in my mind guys like Charles Barkley and Kenny Smith and Scotty Pippin and Michael Jordan you know went into this old over never when we were mad at dinosaurs ruled the earth and and the warriors couldn't have won a game from the Bulls and and that's just crazy Now not saying the warriors would have beaten the Bulls in a seven game series because only the Bulls had Michael Jordan. And that's a pretty big advantage but one of the things they talked about it specifically disrespecting curry is the Inability of players to hand check. Now Barkley made a big point of that about that. Oscar Robertson made a big point about that Oscar. Made it sound like every step. He took on the court three guys where they're hugging him and it was legal. And actually it's true. Obviously the rule Players were no longer allowed to hand. Check in the interim between the the two teens. We're talking about And that certainly helps offensive players today. Like curry on the other hand. All those guys who talked about acted like that's the only change that happened in the game over the last twenty years well in other changes at the game over. The last twenty years changes that tender curvy and the warriors and help Jordan and the Bulls and in comparison that I'll mention just two of them. One is that teams are allowed to zone now so at teams now have much more sophisticated defenses so they they overload the strong side. When curry has the ball out on the wing Say at the three point line. He's facing three players. The guy guarding him and two guys shifted over in back to them. That wasn't legal and Britain's Day. When Jordan got by his one player there was a lot more open space than doesn't face Now this point is the globalization of the game. They're now a hundred or more foreign players in the game today than they were even back in Jordan's Day and every single one of them has replaced a lesser player. Who would have been on the court? If it weren't for the globalization the game so courteous facing better players and under different rules. And you have to keep that in mind. When you compare the warrior to the Bulls. Even from twenty years ago. We have a couple minutes left in the one chapter of the book that I was interested in was the mythology of Mohammed Ali. What is it that people don't know about him? Well I think it's not so much with. They don't know but as what they forget or choose not to remember. And that is that in the decades between the sixties and Seventies. He had some really malevolent features about him the way he treated. Joe Frazier to a lesser extent. George Foreman Ernie Terrell I mean it was really cool Floyd Patterson he basically Kept them around the beat him up for his own personal Reasons and and the way the things he said about Joe Frazier. His is radical ideologic ideology which was essentially racist. I mean there was much dislike about Hamad already in the nineteen sixties and sits there and and the eulogies which of course always positive. We kind of Paint him as a more monolithic safe. Now to be fair Ali was young man then and he evolved and by any question he became a much more gracious in inclusive and respectable figure and in fact became a hero of mine just like Basically the whole world and I think he's been fat. You will Status as a great man and one of the world's great figures was fully deserved. But I think he gets there without whitewashing they sorta parts of. And that's part that we. I think we have kind of whitewashed. We have about a minute left. What would you like people to take away from this Book Sheldon? Mostly I that. I hope it's a really fun and interesting read And also that it will make you think about things Perhaps in ways that you haven't thought about before As you know I run through a scores topics in the three major sports especially baseball a basketball and I'd like to think every single one presents an interesting question that a a reader my wonder about and enjoy reading about and I present an argument in some fashion or other. That may be different than What you thought. I don't of course have the expectation that readers will agree with everything that I say or even most that I say but what I hope is that everything will be challenging and interesting and that you will flow through the pages of this book. Be Glad you read it and give it to a friend. Yeah I agree with you. Are you happy with the way the book came out Sheldon? I'm I'm very happy and I'm happy to talk to me about my pleasure because as I said I like books that make you think this book does that. I know that the readers will get a lot out of it so I hope they'll check it out sheldon thank you and come back and join us again on sports byline anytime you thanks very much. Sheldon Hirsch and again. Check out this book. It's called hot hands draft hype and Dimaggio Streak debunking America's favorite sports myths myths like the pros and cons of batting the pitcher eighth. Also the suggestions across a range of sports to decrease injury risk as well very insightful. Interesting the heavy with us here on sports byline not too long ago. It felt good to withdraw your cash from the bank. Didn't it for a vacation or a new car? But today withdrawing your own cash has become risky Pat Boone here for Swiss America. According to the secret war a new Swiss America White Paper. 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I hope you'll check it out. It's called forty-two faith also Sheldon Hirsch with us. Sheldon has written a book and interesting insightful. Book it's called. Hot Hands draft type DEMONG GIO streak debunking America's favorite Sport Smith Remember. You can hear sports byline. Usa on Stitcher Smart Radio Stitcher allows you to listen to your favorite shows directly from your iphone android phone or web has found on demand and on the go download it for free at stitcher dot com or in the APP stores Stitcher Smart Radio those smarter way to listen to radio. Hey sports fans this is Eddie. Door JAG my show. Dorfman sports byline Sunday each and every Sunday eight am ten. Am Pacific Time on door. Fon Sports on the sports byline USA Radio Network and Sports BYLINE DOT COM generous here and this is what we're hooking into. Tonight's follow territory. It's going to be an NBA night on the show that being said it compared to the potential la versus La. Matchup in the West is Milwaukee's east a bit boring. The Nixon warriors are still headliners. But curly both awful. We've got lots of media discuss and that's scores. You're listening to the sports byline. You're listening to the heartland news radio network broadcasting live for seven minute speech. This stream is supported by advertisers and contributions by follow us on facebook twitter and instagram. The top accused service door newscast awards the fifth twenty twenty on my Clifford. Us house-passed bill Wednesday allocated more than eight billion dollars in emergency funds to combat the spread of the deadly corona virus that from CNBC report the funding which provides more than three billion vaccine research and two point two billion and prevention and preparedness was unveiled following days of negotiations on Capitol Hill. Cnbc not proposal provides a total of eight point three billion to combat the outbreak much more than president trump's administration originally proposed main was the closest race of the Democratic presidential primaries on Super Tuesday. Where former president. Joe Biden narrowly beat Vermont. Senator Bernie Sanders at a surprising victory. Laura Rus Brow. Telam talks to main political experts to explain how Biden want and on Monday centers was heavily projected to win the state which one against Hillary Clinton in two thousand sixteen professor. Sandy Mazel at Colby. College says one big change is that main switch from being a caucus state in two thousand sixteen to apply Mary State this year. We know in caucuses the most active most concerned ghost ideological people who have it should surprise. Nobody that candidate like Senator Sanders would do. Better in caucuses do a practice encompasses parties voters meet and make their case for their preferred candidate and vote at the end of the meeting in primaries. People simply cast ballots so since more moderates likely voted in the main primary on Tuesday. Mazel thinks this gave Biden. A boost. Biden narrowly one main with about thirty four percent of the vote Massachusetts. Senator Elizabeth Warren came in third with close to Sixteen Percent Idaho. Lawmakers considering removing energy standards for building codes but are Eric ticket offi ports building industry groups say that would be a mistake the Kaput Idaho folks at risk provisions such as heat insulation and water sealing to prevent hazards such as black mold are addressed in energy codes striking. These requirements did not pass in February Senate meeting but the proposal is being considered again today in the house. Business Committee John Is Community Development Director for Twin Falls County and a member of the Idaho Building Code Board. He's opposed to this measure and Republicans who were busy manufacturing outrage over these comments. No got to chief justice. John Roberts Calling Schumer's remark dangerous and Mitch McConnell on the Senate floor calling. The remark astonishingly reckless and completely irresponsible. This is USA radio news. Are you tired of high cable? Tv rates sign up for dish today and get a five hundred dollar bonus offer while supplies last loss. Lock in your price for two years. Guaranteed call all American dish. Your dish authorized retailer now. Eight hundred six one zero five seven three nine eight hundred six one zero five seven three nine. That's eight hundred six one. Oh fifty seven. Thirty nine offers require accreditation. Twenty four months and early termination fee Eddie auto pays frictions apply call for details and update now on the Tornados in Tennessee. President trump plans to visit Tornado ravaged. Tennessee on Friday governor. Bill Lee says the administration is helping his State recover as best they can already and according to Country Star Big Kenny. From two nights ago being woke up early in the morning to today and seeing the ongoing efforts of everybody just trying to get their lives back in order. It's just one of those things that remind you. How important community is and how much we can all do. And we come together to try to help our neighbors. It's always awesome to see strong outpouring of support in this community and from so many communities outside of here. I mean. There's a lot of people in this country have a relationship to music city. Usa AND BY. Golly we're going to keep the music playing a former head of the U. A. W. charged by federal prosecutors USA. Radio's Chris Barnes reports Jerry. Jones is accused of taking a million dollars from the union and he is expected to plead guilty to those charges. He's the highest ranking official of the U. A. W. W. charged in a federal probe. That began several years ago. A total of thirteen people have already been convicted of crimes in the investigation. Prosecutors say bank records and the cooperation from Jones and former aides uncovered the scam in which he took money to spend for personal use including luxury vacations. Private villas liquor and golf. Jones could face up to ten years behind bars. You Love Watching Sports Blah. Would you like to be able to take your favorite sports with you and watch them anywhere in your house on your computer even on your smartphone for one low price with national programming service? You can. That's right for one low price so low. We can't publish it. You can take your favorite sports anywhere anytime with you and we even give you free. Installation and free premium movie channels. Don't wait call national programming service. Now you could be up and running and watching your favorite sports in shows in just a few hours remember call in the next ten minutes and ask about our special radio offer and learn about free installation call right now. Eight hundred four seven seven one one. Three eight hundred four seven seven one one eight hundred four seven seven one one three. That's eight hundred four seven. Oh seventy one thirteen. You're listening to sports overnight America. You're hooking into foul territory now. Here's Jen a good evening. Everyone and welcome into another hour of foul territory. Part of the sports overnight America block hobbies sports byline broadcast network manager that you can catch. Us Live at ten o'clock. Pm Pacific Time. Monday through Thursday Jeffrey from Phoenix Arizona. Gender Rich will join me in studio in just a second in its bombing here or We're talking about professional basketball. We're talking about the association. College basketball deserves. It's time and as we draw closer to the madness as we get into the bigger conference tournaments Perhaps that conversation will get its due but Let's look ahead to April and May and for some teams You know it's time to start thinking about the lottery and the NBA draft at the end of June. But now a lot of surprises Jack. Bella surprises Miami's been good at home. Philadelphia's been disappointing. But they're still gonNA make the playoffs. Boston is what you expect them to be. Toronto is the defending champion. But not exactly the same team coming back in nineteen and twenty. No they they had a little bit of fall off. They lost a believe. A couple of people as you know I focus more on NCWA THAN NBA but it has been an interesting season. Leonard a big part of that Toronto Championship team he relocates the West. End Immediately. Brings relevancy to the clippers. Not Tally basketball but La Basketball figures to be extremely relevant. Because you have to call the drama with the Lakers and then you have quite Leonard twos one in San Antonio. He's one in Toronto. Can't he win with the other? La Team? I think that's a big question like I said it's been interesting. It's GonNa be fun to see it. Go down the I guess. Quote Unquote final stretching. All right then. Houston tried to upgrade by adding what Russell Westbrook they subtract. Chris Paul Chris Paul kind of the headliner with the Oklahoma City Thunder but Houston just doesn't seem up to snuff to commute with either of the Los Angeles teams here in the twenty twenty season as we approach the twenty twenty plus Jeff. This is all territory on sports overnight. America you're listening to the sports byline broadcast network and we'll be right back. Took type of guy that wants look put together but doesn't want to spend hours at the mall finding new clothes so you can look great at the office on the Broder even just on the weekend with friends and family I hear you. 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He's got to hold onto the ball. And for the first time in franchise history the warriors are back to back champions three titles in four years for Goldens eight against Lewd. Jr Smith Lives Kicks Warburg stocked up because no one ever said life stare. Here's FOUL TERRITORY WITH JEFF. Injin on sports overnight America all right very welcome back in. It is foul territory. We're talking NBA. We're going to get to the contenders but first let's talk a little bit about the pretenders Jeff Rich gender rich with you from Phoenix Arizona. If you don't know our backgrounds Jenin I are longtime Phoenicians She grew up in the Chicago area. I grew up in the Cleveland area. We've both got what like fifteen plus years of edicts experience under our belt. Probably not most of them rooting for the Phoenix team. So now I'm going to hit fifteen years the summer. So yeah fifteen years coming up this summer supported plus years for both of us I've approaching what Nineteen years in the Valley of the side Probably our focus more on the oats. The diamond backs The Sun devils. Thank you for the Democrats have been Kinda Lovin hate depending on what was going on because they were quite contentious with the cubs for a while. Oh that's never been a fuzz. I don't believe cardinals I've ever been. We've always liked the diamondbacks or the sun levels I think we did dance. Briefly with the wildcats decided that we We like our hometown more. We do like our hometown more. And I'm going to bring up some Arizona wildcats here in this segment. You know we're GonNa talk about the contenders restock about the dregs of the league. Which talk about the teams? That aren't very good despite the hype that they tend to get year in and year out. You know You brought up a New York. You brought up golden state and Golden State's got titles New York. It's been a long time Predates either of our lifetime saw since they've last one title and it's it's been since we were children which is weird because they're so relevant and so many other things. The city of New York is now but the Knicks are not I mean. The Rangers Rangers tend to compete in the NHL from time to time. It's been a while for the mets but They've been in the world series. The Yankees of course have won the world series but not in the last decade goats. Pay For the the twenty tonnes that came and went with the end of twenty nineteen. Were the first decade that did not see the Yankees played or win a world series and What else we got. We got the islanders they were. They were really good in the seventies and the eighties. It's been a while for them as well. But the Knicks just the Knicks. Just haven't done much of anything they used to be. Michael Jordan's main competition in the Eastern Conference and speaking of Michael Jordan he played for the Bulls Ra- longtime lifelong Washington. Wizard also played a short stint of his career with the Chicago. Bulls right WHO's Michael Jordan so They want some titles in the ninety six to be exact six of the ten that were out there to be one in the nineteen nineties. But it's been a long time that that's not the Chicago Bulls team that we can talk about on a nightly radio show such as the one we host the we call foul territory again. It's on at ten. Pm Pacific Time. Monday through Thursday Jen on the Mike and he hit me as well Sirius. Xm To eleven iheartradio streaming live at sports byline dot com but The Knicks and this year the warriors. Because they don't have Kevin Durant they haven't had steph curry or Klay Thompson For a long part of the season and They have not been very good New Orleans get some headlines because they have the first overall pick but he didn't play for a while I on Williamson and then the Detroit Pistons. I only bring them up because Detroit's just had such bad luck across the board. The Tigers Lions are always bad. Tigers had a little little run there but it did not equal title for them The Red Wings its benefits. They've missed the playoffs. Last couple of seasons and the Pistons. It's better longtime listens to have a guy named Derek rose who was drafted by Jan by the Bulls. Yeah it was an MVP with the Chicago Bulls. You know the thing that sticks to me most and I know that you know this because they bring it up. All the time is the charm. Kalahari talked about him. You know the one year that he was at Memphis they have you know. He's got to grow up ten grilled cheese sandwiches the day. I wonder if he continued that. If you cut down to a more reasonable number like six I feel because I'm an adult now I I feel. You never grow tired of eating grilled cheese sandwiches. There are never enough grilled cheese sandwiches. Especially when your doctor tells you you specifically need to stop eating grilled cheese sandwiches so maybe like just just one or two a day like no more like zero zero. Oh it's such a sad NBA player. You can eat that many and not have the same cholesterol issues and whatnot. Well if you play twenty eight minutes right and it's all just plaque buildup and arteries ti. Yeah who needs who needs the ticker all right. Speaking of sad conversation let's Let's go through some sad sacks teams of local interests to ask the Sun's teams of local interest to you the Bulls. Your family was into the Bulls though not just because they were winning but because they were something to do something to do something to watch in the winter or the blackhawks weren't on TV. I guess mostly I mean there were some S- lumper years there where the Bulls were struggling to fill the stadium. Were struggling to pull up the ratings but Seattle at the Bulls. See quite. Catch it the same way. That Cleveland is in saying that they were never relevant without Michael Jordan. Everybody says that the cabs weren't really relevant without Lebron James. Despite the fact that you know both teams have made the playoffs without that superstar player the Bulls obviously more recently. Because it's been a long time since. Mj played for that team so You and I are the first to admit that we don't follow the NBA all closely. But you know if something is big even if it's not something that we watch especially closely we should be familiar named should at least ring a bell. I'M GONNA go through a couple of names from the Bulls and then we'll do the cavs and I know that you watch capital but more than the average Chicago born native Because you know you're in such close proximity to me but the cabs haven't been much to watch of late so let's start with the Chicago Bulls and I'm just GONNA name off a couple of years. Give me one to ten. How familiar you are with the name. And I'll start with making nineteen and a half million dollars a year Zach Levine. I know who that guy is. Okay so that's a tad. I know who that guy is but obviously not enough because I think I've in mispronounce his name several times on the show and you do Vile score updates each every night that we go live all right. How about Lauri Markkanen? He's making five point three million dollars a year and he's a university of this was to be on numbers let's go with like negative fourteen to fourteen negative. Fourteen Larry Markkanen Otto Porter Jr. is their numbers numbers lower than negative fourteen or the negative fourteen. I'm just GONNA keep negative fourteen as my lowest number Shaquille Harrison from Tulsa. So I WANNA put him in six. But I don't know why I think it's just because Shaquille seems familiar familiar. Kinda Fun name. One more lead in the national championship for Villanova Ryan Archie. Ikano Villanova was in the National Championship. Home I the cavs Cavaliers Matthew Della Vedova. I okay so do recognize that name but I am surprised. I didn't know he was still there. I didn't know he was still a CAV. How Kevin Love? Oh Yeah Oh yes. I definitely know where to go with the seven. We're GONNA go with well. No it's ten. I am very familiar with his name. I just did not know he was still wearing a cavs uniform. And then Kevin love is like a positive fifty million. I don't know if there's one thing just doesn't work Tristan Thompson that again like yeah credentialing connections to right. That's bonus points at bonus points for that one personal stuff not only do. I know he's a Cav but I know personal things about him. Okay okay. That's worth something. You're listening to territory. We are the jet destroyer network. Any debt you have credit card tens student loan debt. Call now for free information that helps you destroy your debt. It's great advice plus when you make this free call now. We have debt destroyer experts. Ready to help they can show you how to destroy your debt and get your life back on track. Jet Problems don't have to be overwhelming. You could live stress-free and debt free credit cards medical bills. Irs Tax problems even student loan debt. Learn about free programs offered by the Credit Card Companies Hospitals. And even the government that can help slash your debt call the deck destroyer now for free information call now eight seven seven three six zero four zero two eight seven seven three six zero four zero two eight seven seven. Three six zero zero four zero two. That's eight seven seven. Three six zero zero four zero to twenty eight. I struggled with opiate and Meth Addiction. For twelve years I didn't said things that the sobre Mi never would have done one day. I realized I was not invincible. Was Not exempt as when a friend told me about elite Rehab Place when they gave me the tools I needed to get sober and all it took was the one phone call elite. Rehab can help you start to break your addiction problem and get sober in as little as seven days and we'll work with your insurance provider to help cover the costs. Plus we have travel assistance programs to get you here by plane or train. Make this free call right now to learn more eight hundred four zero three five nine one to eight hundred four zero three five nine one to eight hundred four zero three five nine one two. That's eight hundred. Four zero three fifty. Nine twelve attention homeowners. Do you have a house in need of serious repairs? Do you have tennis? Never seemed to make their monthly payments. How about code violations past due taxes or maintenance cost you just can't afford then call my friends right now. Where quick cash offer specialize in buying any home? No matter how ugly the situation turn that problem property in the cash right now. It's just that simple one call and you can get rid of that home headache for ever. They buy the ugliest houses with instant. Closings instant cash and huge savings lost their no realtor fees no listing fees it. No repair costs just cash in your hands for that painful property. They're buying a few more houses in your neighborhood this month. So take advantage of this cash. Offer call quick cash offer now. Eight hundred four to six to three zero one. Eight hundred four to six to three zero one. That's eight hundred four to six twenty. Three O one works better what she says his final. Jan Rich is always keeping score here. On sports overnight America Agana generated back at you with some final scores from Thursday March. The fifth over on the court in the NBA. The nuggets edged out the Hornets. One Fourteen to one twelve and Houston goes only seven forty two from three point range. They go on to fall one. Twenty two one. Oh five to the clippers over on the ice in the NHL. The sabers continued to struggle dropping a fifth straight after a four to two loss to the penguins. Lightning struck four times to shut out the Canadians. Ford nothing the flyers extended their win. Streak to eight eight four. Two one win over the hurricanes. The panthers fell in overtime to the bruins Florida's three bike zebina. Jed had five of the Rangers six goals defeating the capital's six to five in overtime. That fiscal came in overtime. He is only the second player in NHL history to have five goals being scored in overtime. Ottawa edged out the New York Islanders. Four to three the stars got shut out by the predators to nothing and Chicago slowed down the oilers momentum with a four to three win. That's a wrap from me. Let's throw it back over. Jeff Gordon again. Everyone it is the vegas our on foul territory. The part of these sports overnight America Block on sports byline show airs live at ten. Pm Pacific Time seven nights a week. But you'll get yours. Truly Jeff rich and over on the couch. We have generous. You only get us four times a week. That's Monday through Thursday nights but You can catch the archives on IHEART radio and John. Let's pick it up right where we left off talking about baseball in Vegas Talking about the Las Vegas Ballpark. The Las Vegas Aviators and New New ballpark versus old ballpark Definitely upgrade and we've got The as which depending on how you look at it upgrade or downgrade from the New York mets a parent club. There's a lot of runs that are going to be scored out there. When the winds blowing it's certainly blowing hard. It is and it was cold. Cold really fast dropped. Probably about fifteen degrees from game started to game end Gus We're about thirty miles per hour when we left any comparison. It's a triple A. Ballpark in comparison with other AAA. Ballparks that I'd say it's pretty nice and facing with some of the nicer spring training parks that we have down here in the Phoenix market. I would say that. It kind of pales in comparison. You don't want to do too much with a minor league ballpark. They had a nice balance there though because they use their outfield wisely. Instead of just having it be a whole bunch of grass that maybe nobody's GonNa sit on. They had half of it as crass where you can sit out in the berm and the other half of it was a little pool or the other the other half of the right center field area in left field was Kinda like it is at Oracle Park in San Francisco where it's a walkway where you can stand over on top of the taller wall out there in left field and you know. I I think for Minor League Baseball you know comparing it with what we have to go against Albuquerque Reno Tacoma you know I. I think that it's par for the course that it's you know it's a little nicer because it has las Vegas but it's not so nice that you're like a little too much reminder league baseball field like we had. Oh we did. The rough. Riders WAS DOUBLE A. That was Dr Wicked Park near like a water park in their park. Pool is unique side. Undersell the the pool that they've got of course it's going to be limited access. It's not a public burning. And then my carry on your way you're gonNA run out the whole thing for the game and nobody was swimming in February and early March up in Las Vegas Dig Cooler in all fairness it only was sixty five to begin with but at sixty five and sunny and then it was about fifty about an hour and a half later. It was fifty drizzling. And the coldest damn wins. You've ever felt before in the time that it took to get from our seats behind third base dugout to wrapping ourselves around the Left Field Poll. It went from probably fifty eight degrees to forty five degrees. If your brother has been with us I probably would have asked if you just want it to curl up and just just call it like. Do you want to just curl up together and just freeze to death like? Is that how you wouldn't go because that's how cold it felt. Charlotte to my brother for His presence saving our life there. Apparently all right so a lot to get y'all sock. Unlv basketball was good. Once upon a time. That was the only thing that they had going on in town. Belated at the Thomas and Mack Center which I've not seen and Their football team late at Sam Boyd. Stadium the football team's never been anything to speak of However their basketball program in the early nineties Boy Jerry Tarquini eighty nine got onto the elite eight in nineteen ninety. They wanted all. They beat Duke by thirty in the National Championship. And then in ninety one duke out there vengeance as a two seat coming out of the Midwest Are Pardon me They beat them by two points in the final four. I think Duke went onto win the championship game in Nineteen Ninety One and then the program went on probation because a small school in Las Vegas shouldn't get that good that quickly so Something was up a lot of NBA players on that team they haven't had many NBA players ever since Shawn. Marion comes to mind They played in the All star. Game there and I believe it was two thousand and seven it was an NBA All Star game and they finally got professional sports Two years ago three years ago with the hockey of all things was that a kind of a shock that Las Vegas got a hockey team before basketball team or football or baseball team. Then you it really anything else. Hockey seems like it was the least likely thing to land itself in Vegas but there were yeah I. I'm really glad that's what they chose because that was fantastic. But that was incredibly weird they built a nicer arena right off the strip right behind the New York New York casino off of I fifteen and the Tropicana Tropicana Boulevard down the street from the Tropicana Hotel and casino. And it's it's kind of amazing I I. It's in your face when you're in front of it but just being a half mile away. It gets hidden behind the buildings. See The lights of T. mobile arena sticking out between two of the buildings and the only way you see that it's there and you see it from the tropic. Wasn't even a lot of sinus through the hotel in the parking garage like hey arena this way. We kind of followed a bunch of people. No I mean considering how the casinos you know go out of their way for the reveal the market themselves and it looks. Nice when you're looking at it from the right angle But when nothing's going on there it's it's it's kind of kind of yearly quiet over there You were back in the in the room my brother and I wandered through the MGM. Casino cost the bridge in New York New York and really what I wanted to. You know what I was trying to gets you when we started to Mosey and my brother and I was the rollercoaster at New York New York. Because I've seen the tracks for it I've just never seen. Were you catch it and how you go about doing that? But they req- off with really this roller coaster. Why we've never gone up to the arcade level of New York. We have to walk through the terror. Arcade which is good you know and it's an actual kid Arcada. This isn't like an adult arcade. 'cause you're in Vegas? It is a part of the casino that is designated to be like games and rides and stuff for children right so you just walk through the hierarchy aid and then you have to buy a package which includes some arcade amenities along with a single roller coaster ride but you know those packages start at forty five dollars ahead. That's a it's a little bit sure. What can't be more than three or four minute ride on the rollercoaster? I don't even think big giant roller coasters are three or four minutes. I think like the biggest ones theme parks are like a minute. And a half this one HA. I mean it's tiny. It's the size of a third of a casino. It's a small roller coaster. It can't be more than like thirty seconds. Probably they do. They do take multiple APPS. It's tiny I don't because of that reason I don't trust it either. I've I've never wanted to ride the roller coasters in the Vegas Casinos. Because they just don't come me crazy. I just don't trust roller coasters. That are inside of casinos. Doesn't spell a good time for me. But beyond that arcade you know you can walk across the bridge to the parking garage that sits behind New York New York. I guess that would be to the West to the last and you walk out. You know you go down. The escalator outside the parking garage and you are in the Plaza for T. Mobile arena when we went there the night before the game. Nothing was going on. We had car. We were the only two souls with you know within shouting distance statue. They have in the middle of the plaza. There's a statue in the middle of the presents a weird. It's an leading made out of wire like a giant naked lady. Made out of wire in the middle of I guess all make ladies made out of wire. Diamond DOZEN DEMAND. Vegas does like you didn't see that. No I have no recollection of that. I guess we've ever seeing seeing a sports arena and I guess that's what What drew my eye but The next you know however the next night when there was a hockey game You'll they were. You know there are people walking down Tropicana and Las Vegas Boulevard. In all their golden knights gear like three hours before the game. It was four thirty in the afternoon. The puck drop at seven thirty and I also saw on the ticket. Something called nighttime K. and I T- time Started a half hour before the game. Now you were surprised by it all together though you may have been taken back by the pageantry that took place From the second that we set forth in the arena Civic questioned the fact that the Golden Knights have cheerleaders. Because you don't see that I wouldn't. I wouldn't say that you don't see that Oliver Hockey 'cause the oats cheerleaders but little pommie girls that run around the stadium which they did there but there is also a platform on the behind the net on the one level. The upper corner of the stadium. The fortress where it's just a constant stage of blue man group and cheerleaders and weird nightmare banging swords. And there's some showgirls hanging out. I mean we walked in and there were ladies pompoms. There was a drum corps and there was a night in full golden armor leading the charge of Let's go nights And this is forty five minutes before the game because I got there early. Figure tickets like an hour before the game. Yeah Yeah it. Just just take very long to get there because it was a short while to begin with. But we didn't encounter like hoards of people walking slowly. It took like no time to get their incredibly convenient to get their walking through the New York New York there during hockey season you have the means. Please attended a Las Vegas Golden Knights Hockey Game. Even if he's not your favorite sport it is just an experience To to take in and you know the beginning watch the half an hour before the game starts and then just leave. Well I only I. I've seen what they what they are on the broadcast for the playoff games. But I didn't know that that kind of thing happened during the season. It's just what they do every game every game. There's there's a motion pitcher. There's like a whole motion picture that they play beforehand. And then a bunch of guys get on the ice and sword fight and there's fire and glitter rockets and it's everything you would expect out of Las Vegas Golden Knights on the other side and we're talking about the biggest aspect that Vegas plays in sports and it is the gambling aspect she's Jan. I'm jeff this is Paul territory. You're listening to sports overnight. America on the sports byline broadcast network. And we'll be right back and how I the winning dunk and cost your team that championship. What are your thoughts will switch to boost mobile and got a super fast network for Free Samsung Galaxy? A twenty so even when we lose I still win. It was an easy fastbreak and no one was near. You know US fast. Who'S MOBILE SUPER FAST? Network there calling your shot. The greatest miss in history boost. Mobile's prices are never missed. I even get four lines for twenty five dollars per line per month. Oh look at that. The fans are burning. Your Jersey. Yup The fans get it my boost mobile network envoy go switch to boost mobile and get four lines for twenty five dollars per line per month with unlimited data and four free. Samsung Galaxy phones all in our super reliable super fast network. Step up with boost mobile new customers only limited time offer while supplies last requires one portrait eligible carrier inactivation one device per line customers more than thirty five gigabytes of data during the billing cycle deprioritize during times of Network Congestion Offers Coverage. Not Available everywhere. See boussole dot com retail for full details. Ready to own your first real home the road on renting can get a bit rocky takes a reliable partner to right wrong turns. That's the role of a realtor. An expert Voice of reason helping you navigate the rigmarole of real estate a trusted ally and represents your rights see. You could all the right guidance. On Your journey home is your agent. Realtor look realtors are members of the National Association of Realtors? That's who we are when you're diagnosed with metastatic breast cancer. A lot of questions run through your mind. What am I going to do? What are my options? What did I do wrong? We've had those thoughts to but some questions can help you move forward. Visit Find Your Embassy. Voice Dot Com for an interactive guide to help you learn the next steps to take after an NBC diagnosis in how to ask the questions that lead to an open and informed conversation with your Doctor Start Finding Your Voice today at find your NBC Voice Dot Com step back three and is all the way does jeff with the foul up forty nine point nine four year. Mvp paid burks. You're listening to foul territory with Jeff and Jen advice to you. Start Drinking Heaven. Nutt everybody welcome back. We are rounding third and heading home with this hour of foul territory. Part of the sports overnight America Block again. You can check us out. Siriusxm Channel Two eleven iheartradio both livestream and the archive shows just search for sports overnight. America and of course you can catch us always gets the whole network on Sports byline Dot com learn always streaming live and John You have an update. I called you out. You did the research during the break and We had what's the name Steven Gross Michael Gross Michael Gross Steven Steven Keaton on the family ties. Show but Michael Gross wearing. What kind of hat a cubs hat? What movie tremors German six specifically the sixth one? Six addition of eight now. He's been in all of them though right. Yes he's like he's like the guy he's the guy because it was Fred Fred Fred Ward and Kevin Bacon. He was kind of a tertiary character. Hupa a major part of the plot points but not the star of the movie. I think that he became stars. The sequels kept getting made made made when sequel to came around and Kevin. Bacon was like no. I'm not hanging out there. Like what are we supposed to do? And he was like Michael Gross. Very tremors intents and they just kept going on and on and on. Zaveri a very trimmers intensive edition of the Foul Territory Program. That's worth related idea. But it but you know he was. He was wearing sports as some kind of sports hat. And all of them they had a jump from rock to rock and shoot things and running. And yes tremors was a was a sporting event triggers sports. I heard Christmas movie. Yeah all right. So let's let's move on from the Atlanta they. They're probably the most talk that the Atlanta Hawks are going to get. What kind of Hat Michael Gross was wearing in the tremor sequels. Probably so we're GONNA go west. We're going to kind of do the same thing out west I've got You know La in La are obviously the main contenders during this particular basketball season. But also out West you have golden state which bay area Minnesota which is Minnesota Phoenix which are home New Orleans You know we're Mardi Gras is held once asked you. If you've ever been to Mardi Gras you do recall your response to that. It was have you seen a fifty gallon storage tov marked beads and I said no and then you said No. I've never been there. I'm not allowed to go not allowed to go to. Mardi gras shown you guess Portland. Have you ever been to state of worrying? Okay I think everything around it now at this point but it's passed through Portland. I that you know. I spent a week of a summer Salem. And we took a trip into Portland. probably went through there for the airport. We've never been to Sacramento the capital. Oh California Mefissa you and I have both been there but never together Dallas We've both been there in the heat of summer We we've actually been to multiple Ranger Games and an Astros Game Oklahoma City. I've never been I've never read to Oklahoma. You may have been there because driven through it when I moved to Phoenix but when you moved to Phoenix you didn't do much in the way of stopping traverse bathroom. It was too bad. We didn't stop until the tables empty. Okay so if you want a so if your bladder was full you better have hoped that the tank was empty. Yeah Utah Utah Spence. Yeah a couple I think to nine hundred I have spent a matter of hours in Utah. Specifically Midvale Utah which is right by salt. Lake City We mentioned that we've been to Houston so wait. Phillips in Houston We went to breakfast at a place called Be Barnabei's before we actually was like it was like making fun of him because we thought it was just some guy that looked like him and then he was like. Hey I'm Wade Phillips Denver. We've been to Denver plenty of La AND LA I have been to e clippers. Game Never Lakers game never leave home game at Staples Center But we've been elway's decent place to visit but not just doesn't strike me as a great place to live so Going through this list Denver. Houston SALT LAKE CITY OKLAHOMA CITY DALLAS MEMPHIS SACRAMENTO Portland San Antonio New Orleans right here in the valley of the Sun Minnesota and San Francisco most desired location to live staying here. I'm staying here to saying here is. This is the best. We're not obsessed with water. I I think that we could drive water. We don't like humidity. We don't like bugs. We DON'T CARE. We have a pool so we're fine. We don't need ocean water with all sorts of weird animals living in it. We don't need high taxes and ridiculous other. I guess I'm GonNa tell you. Florida's beaches are better than California's beaches badge. So just because the water's nicer the water's kind of nicer. Both of the cold all the time. It really does it really. Does I think. There's like a two month period in the middle of the summer where it's not cold likeable team in La La proper or are we also including duckie's and angels were include Orange County. I am fine with doctors. Angels Forget your actual away near the chargers. Now come on. Somebody's got to charge like you know. I prefer the clippers. The Lakers yes I would. I would actually be very pleased to see the clippers. Hoisting the Larry O. B. At the end of the at the end of the relevant. I mean Lebron and Lebron. La and winning. I you know. I think it would nauseates people. I think that it would cement. His legacy maybe not maybe not up there with Michael but the third team quiet saint same opportunity. Though I think that that's glossed over the rounds just got so much so many more miles on him that you know. I think that you can't. You can't look at those two apple apples to apples as far as winning with three different franchises of course quite was traded to Toronto and then when he had the opportunity to leave and go to La and secure the bag so to speak and get his paycheck then You know. I don't really begrudge quiet Leonard for jumping teams. Lebron has when the going got tough. Lebron GEICO. The quiet Leonard took took trade to Toronto. There was rumors that he wouldn't play. He played and he won the championship in his only season. There so Toronto doesn't have any sour apples over it and or sour grapes. Sour grapes spilled milk sour grapes anyway. I respect the way that Leonard has jumped from team to team a lot more than the way that Lebron has. But you know you could remember where I'm from Cleveland and say that you know I'm I'm just I'm just bitter about it and and it wouldn't be completely untrue. Denver you know. Denver's got gotten the victories with the avalanche and the Broncos but I think the nuggets are more likable than either of those teams does just kind of there hanging out middle of the country. It's snowy in their skiing the next day. It's eighty sweating to death and they have a nickel Yokich own. They've got super star but not a not an Alpha male table superstar. And I think that that's what some of these secondary teams in the Western Conference have going on. Houston's been crying you know. They had Chris Paul and James Harden now they have Russell Westbrook and James Harden. It's kind of two of the same thing It's disappointing that they can't really crack the top of the league. They were probably Golden State's best competitor. Golden State pulled away Oklahoma City is just kind of Zambia. Of what Houston used to be Chris? Paul and Stephen Adams probably the big players there and the Dallas has an exciting player that came over from overseas. Look which kind of took the torch from Dirk Nowitzki so? I think that that's kind of cool story that they've got going on there As far as the basketball is concerned. I mean it's La La. That's that's GONNA be intriguing if if we don't get there There are going to be people that just are going to check out on basketball much like a lot of people have already checked out on basketball. And that's the thing is basketball. You almost need very specific matchups. You almost need celtics versus Lakers. You Know I. I'm not sure. That box versus Lakers. A is that big of a cell either. The Fox versus clippers even less of a cell golden state in Cleveland was exciting. Because you had the Super Team. Lebron tried to build versus this kind of organic team until durant came along anyway And then you had durant versus the Braun which was an Alpha versus Alpha matchup that we never got while Kobe. Bryant was still playing in Kobe versus the Bronx. Because you know when Kobe finally got their Lebron wasn't able to get there and when the Lebron started going regularly with the heat the Lakers just didn't have going on a basketball struggles. Because I don't think it matters who plays in the Stanley Cup who plays in the super bowl who plays in the world series. They really matters from a marketing perspective for the strength of the sport who does play in the NBA finals. Especially because it's well. I guess you could argue that. Nhl is long to. It's just such a long playoff to finally get to the finals and I think hockey is random. I think hockey is random enough that you say okay you whoever's got twelve wins and reaches the Cup final earned versus basketball. Where it's it's it's preordained. It's supposed to be this team this team. It's supposed to be more and more to the fact this player and this player are supposed to carry their teams there. And if it doesn't end up being the predicted matchup it's like okay. Well we'll deal with it. You know I think that a Lotta people wanted Philadelphia. A lot of people wanted the Lakers to compete with golden state near one but Lebron got hurt. The team just wasn't good enough around him until a in until trade that everybody you know had happening for six months happened over the summer and they got Anthony Davis and you know I just Kinda liked that the clippers are there to compete with them because Golden State didn't really have any competition in the last. It's nice that the Lakers aren't going to be able to put it in cruise control and just show up in June and I'll make I'll even You know go against my own team saying that you know. That's the way the Cleveland was supposed to be. If Cleveland didn't make the finals it was gonna be disappointing and it was going to be a disappointing finals. If it was anybody else you know even if it was the Boston Celtics. Y'All going up against Golden State. I'm glad that it's not going to be golden state this year. I think that that's one thing that we have to look forward to but at the same time I I'm not sure that either of the La teams are really really represent the casual fan. I don't know I don't like the idea of fully West Coast Championship. Well it's a championship. It's just the the conference is then. That's one of the things. The hockey and basketball guarantees that they're going to have east versus West now that could be as close proximity as Milwaukee versus Minnesota but the timber wolves just really never been a threat to be that In hockey we had Pittsburgh and Detroit. We didn't have a coastal matchup in football could be anybody. It could be patriots the Patriots and the giants or could be the Patriots and the ramp. So you have New York versus Boston Boston versus La. And it's it's that random and that's okay I think that that's And if that works to basketball's advantage and I think that works in some ways to basketball's disadvantaged because if you don't have that West Coast team if you don't have that Pacific Time Zone team like when you have Miami Dallas. It was ill if you didn't have the element of everybody rooting against the We'll super team Miami He. I don't think that that Syria sold very well. And it didn't sell very well when it was played before. Lebron got there when it was delayed versus. Novitsky back in in two thousand six you know I think they you know. Tv needs it. Everybody needs it and even Ronald so big market but Toronto for San Francisco in last year's finals. Because you didn't have Kevin Durant most of the way. It was a disappointing final since going to be largely forgotten so anyway that's our Basketball conversation. I think that we've told all the meat off the bone but John and I'll be back right after the break. You wrap it all up. It's foul territory on sports overnight America and WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK. It's back shooter. You're listening to foul territory. This is sports overnight. America for free speech feeling food. Do you owe ten thousand dollars or more on at least two federal student loans. Then you may qualify for new programs offered by the Department of Education. These programs can reduce your interest lower your payments and possibly qualify you for loan forgiveness if you have ten thousand dollars or more and at least two federal student loans and currently not in school you may qualify for one of these programs. Call now to check your eligibility student. Loan advisors are standing by to help you determine if you qualify for these new programs. 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It's time I can do. This addiction is a disease and diseases need treatment. Call Quick Drugs Three two one now at eight hundred three three eight six nine zero six eight hundred three three eight six nine zero six. That's eight hundred. Three three eight sixty nine six eight four by the detox and treatment help line. You're listening to foul territory on sports overnight America with Jeff at Gen rich very. We are back timing despise when you're having fun and Geno tell you when I told you that we're going to do all NBA our You might have been terrified. I was certainly terrified that we'd be able to carry a conversation. Of course it wasn't all basketball because you know it's it's ten o'clock at night in the last it's you know one. Am in the east. It's after midnight in the central time zone So we can get a little bit how to balance go into all territory. Thusly the name of our program here So we talk a lot more about NBA cities than we talked about NBA. Teams jets. Arts can be Lakers and bucks in the finals. But you know he's still got games. We still gotTA figure it all out we gotta find out what's going on. I would say that the NBA still has an image problem because it superstars have to carry it. And I don't know if there's anybody there that's necessarily going to take the torch from Lebron and that's coming from somebody that doesn't really you know adore the man like so many NBA fans do and those aren't the ones that you have to worry about. It's I guess it's doing okay on TV but it's not what we're GonNa Watch on TV over the weekend. What do you got for us over the weekend? I know this probably gets lame week after week but viewership was down in week four so watch the XFL xfl. And I'll go through the gate know how long it's going to be around full season. All Right at eleven. Am Eastern on Saturday. We'VE GOT SEATTLE AT HOUSTON. The roughnecks are thirteen and a half point favorites in that one New York and Dallas is your nightcap on Saturday at two. Pm Pacific Time Dallas heavy favorites even without Landry Jones. St Louis the one xfl city that does not have an NFL. Football is being embraced. There I think that they liked the battle hawks. Maybe more than they like the rams in that's why the rams got to high tail it back to La there visiting DC and suddenly Cardinal Jones team. Not all that hot and then your last game the weekend now on in Primetime six PM Sunday night. It's the Tampa Bay. Vipers at the Los Angeles wildcats wildcats a slight favourite and now one for John Scott on the other side of the glass. My Name's Jeff Rich. You've been listening to foul territory now. Stay tuned for more sports. Come your way next hour on the sports byline broadcast network changed. You're listening to the heartland newsfeed radio network broadcasting tweak for seven over. This stream is supported by advertisers and contributions by follow us on facebook twitter and INSTAGRAM's who service Kgo newscasts immortal six twenty twenty on my Clifford Senator. Elizabeth Warren exited the race for the White House on Thursday ties supports move comes after her avalanche progressive policy proposals which briefly elevated her to a front rudder. Status last fall failed to attract a broader political coalition. The Times knows who departure means that a democratic field that began as he most diverse in American history and included. Six women is now essentially down to two white men for Vice President Joe Biden and Senator Bernie Sanders California's taking action on multiple fronts to combat trump administration policies. The state seizes harmful to children. That's according to the state attorney. General Heavier Sarah. Sarah was among those honored on Thursday at the State of the child. Twenty twenty event Myra Alvarez with Children's partnership notes that California's Ag has launched multiple lawsuits to protect access to healthcare and public benefits that really demonstrate California's leadership and upholding our values of diversity and family and community. That makes sure we put our children front and center share condemned the administration's new public charge rule for so in confusion among immigrant families. Leading many to needlessly withdraw from programs that benefit their. U S born children. I'm Suzanne Potter. Does your State of the Child Event Commemorates the twenty fifth anniversary of founding. The Children's partnership. It is a nonprofit that has successfully pushed for extra funding in the new state budget for early education at supportive home visits for new mothers the State of Florida's investigation into a domestic violence non profit and it's alleged misappropriations of millions of dollars of state funds. Ramped up this week with a lawsuit against the group's executive leadership. It says Tiffany car who led the Florida. Coalition against domestic violence was paid seven hundred sixty one thousand dollars a year at the time of her resignation and with pay time off received seven million dollars in compensation over three years. Even the shelters under her groups management were short on funding then Wilcox with the watchdog nonprofit Integrity Florida's says the state probe is long overdue. I think corruption. Yeah I think potentially criminal corruption see how it plays out the Department of Children and families which has contracted with the coalition since two thousand three filed a lawsuit Wednesday targeting car the coalition's board of directors and executive officers on Thursday. The Florida House also approved a motion to serve car with the subpoena by any means necessary after the department accused her of stonewalling oversight attempts. I'm Trammell Ghanem's the governor's lawyers are asking the court for more than thirty thousand dollars in damages for each of the fifty. One count of the complaint against the coalition. This is pianist. Despite these politically divided times. America's IT turns out are still ready to listen to health officials during the corona virus epidemic. Eric Tikhonov explains that's according to a February survey from the University of Oregon. Which finds trust is high in doctors and in the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Ellen Peters Director of the Center for Science Communication Research AT SAYS RESPONDENTS. Politics predicted their trust in politicians but not health officials even among conservatives. President trump was not the most trusted it turns out that among conservatives and liberals alike the most trusted where the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention People's doctors in Oregon. There are three confirmed cases of novel Corona Virus according to authorities in the past week the trump administration has said it will tighten control over health officials messaging on the virus and a medal will soon go out to principals. New Mexico's largest public school district. Reminding them about the district's policy on ice agents. The Albuquerque School district has the most kids in the state and its policy prohibits federal agents from coming onto a school campus. Unless they have a warrant Brendan Baca who manages the district's refugee and newcomer supports program. Says the memo follows a February statement from city. Officials referencing a recent surge in local arrests by ICE. It was in response to the activity that we've seen throughout the city. There has been about a tenfold increase in the number of detentions by ice in Albuquerque. I'm Roz Brown. Finally our address. Here's reports lawmakers in Albany. Debate a proposed three percent increase in school funding educators. Say That community school. Show the best ways. Some of that money could be spent. York City has two hundred sixty seven community school serving one hundred thirty five thousand low income students from working with community based organizations community schools. Take a holistic approach to education providing students and the community. With services it helps stabilize children's lives and promote learning according to Toyo Ramjet apparent and PTA president at PS sixty seven in Brooklyn Phil Services. Go far beyond what happens in the classroom at our school. We have dental and vision screenings and asthma case manager mental health counselors and even a food pantry. Recent three year study by the Rand Corporation found New York City community. Schools have had positive effects for students across a variety of outcome measures. Margaret Crotty is CEO of partnership with children. Which is working with sixty seven. She points out that life circumstances is associated with poverty like trauma hunger and insecurity have physiological impacts on a child's brain that affect learning. This story was produced to the regional reporting from Florida road out for Yes media I Mike Clifford from public service. We are member list supported. Put It online at public. Do Service Dot. Org here's foul territory with Jefferson on sports overnight. America evening everyone and welcome in for another hour of foul territory. Part of the sports overnight. America blocked on the sports byline broadcast now. Magar that you can catch. Us Live at ten o'clock. Pm Pacific signs. Monday through Thursday Jeff Richer with you from Phoenix. Arizona will join me in studio in just a second. It's up all night here. We're talking about professional basketball. We're talking about the association. College basketball deserves. It's time and as we draw closer to the madness as we get into the bigger conference tournaments Perhaps that conversation get its do. But let's look ahead to April and May and for some teams You know it's already time to start thinking about the lottery and the NBA draft at the end of June but now a lot of surprises jet not a lot of surprises. Miami's been good at home. Philadelphia's been disappointing. But they're still gonNA make the playoffs. Boston is what you expect them to be. Toronto is the defending champion. But not exactly the same team coming back in nineteen and twenty. No they had a little bit of off. They lost a believe a couple of people as you know I focus more on. Nc Double A. Than NBA. But it has been an interesting season. Go I Leonard. Big Part of that Toronto Championship team. He relocates the West End Immediately. Brings RELEVANCY TO THE CLIPPERS. Not Tally Basketball. But La Basketball prefigures to be extremely relevant. Because you have as you like to call the drama with the Lakers and then you have quite Leonard whose one in San Antonio he's one in Toronto Kenny win with the other L. A. And it's a big question like. I said it's been interesting. It's GonNa be fun to see it. Go down the I guess quote unquote final stretch all right and then. Houston tried to upgrade by adding what Russell Westbrook they subtract. Chris Paul Chris Paul kind of the headliner with the Oklahoma City thunder but Houston just doesn't seem up to snuff to compete with either of the Los Angeles teams here in the twenty twenty season as we approach the twenty twenty. She's General Jeff Territory on sports overnight. America you listen to the sports byline broadcast network. And we'll be right back. The Jimmy Butler Empire until the tax base. Something Timmy. Bali dating APP maybe Butler Book. Jimmy is all good ideas. Hey travelers do you want to save money on your next flight? Then pick up the phone and call. 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Well I switched to boost mobile and got a super fast network four free Samsung Galaxy phones. So even when we lose I still win. It wasn't easy fastbreak and no one was near you. Know what's fast boost? Mobile Super Fast Network there calling your shot. The greatest miss in history boost. Mobile's prices are never missed. I even get four lines for twenty five dollars per line per month. Oh look at that. That fans are burning. Your Jersey. Yup The fans get it my boost mobile networks envoy. Go switch to boost mobile and get four lines for twenty five dollars per line per month with unlimited data and for Free Samsung Galaxy Phones. All on our super reliable. Super Fast Network. Step up with boost mobile new customers only limited time offer. While supplies last requires one port Carrier and activation device per line customers more than thirty five gigabytes of data during the billing cycle will be prioritized during times of network congestion offers coverage not available everywhere see Boussole Dot com retail for full details. Bikes marked the spot kick correctly traffic out. Love your cooking in a bowel territory. Now here's Jenin Jet Damn Tau. You're talking all right. Everybody WELCOME BACK. Game is foul territory we're talking NBA and we're going to get to the contenders but first let's talk a little bit about the pretenders Jeff Rich gender rich with you from Phoenix Arizona. If you don't know our backgrounds Jenin. I are longtime Phoenicians She grew up in the Chicago area. I grew up in the Cleveland area. We've both got what fifteen plus years of experience under our belt. Probably not most of them rooting for the Phoenix teams. Though now I'm going to fifteen years this summer. So you got fifteen years coming up this summer. So fourteen plus years for both of us Approaching what a nineteen years in the valley of the Sun Probably OUR FOCUS. More on the oats the diamondbacks. The Sun devils thinking of the Dematteis have been Kinda love and hate depending on what was going on because they were quite contentious with the cubs for a while. Let's have never been a fuss. I don't believe cardinals. Have ever been a fuss. We've always liked the diamondbacks or the sun doubles. I think we did dance briefly with the wildcats but decided that we we like our hometown more. We do like our hometown more. And I'm GONNA bring up some Arizona wildcats here in this segment. We're going to talk about the contenders restock about the dregs of the league. Which talk about the teams? That aren't very good despite the hype that they tend to get year in and year out. You know You brought up a New York. You brought up golden state and Golden State's got titles New York. It's been a long time Predates either of our lifetime saw since they've last won a title and it's it's been since we were children which is weird because they're so relevant and so many other things. The city of New Yorkers but the Knicks are not. I mean of the Rangers Rangers ten to compete in the NHL. From time to time it's been a while for the maths but they've been in the world series. The Yankees of course have won the world series but nothing last decade for actually the the twenty tonnes that came and went with the end of twenty nineteen war. The first that did not see the Yankees play in or win. A world series and What else we got. We got the islanders they were. They were really good in the seventies in the eighties. It's been a while for them as well. But the Knicks just the Knicks. Just haven't done much of anything they used to be orden's being competition in the Eastern Conference and three of Michael Jordan. He played for the Bulls Relax. Lifelong Washington wizard also played a short stint of his career with the Chicago. Bulls right. Who's Michael Jordan? So they want some titles in the ninety six to be exact six of the ten that were out there to be one in the nineteen nineties. But it's been a long time that that's not the Chicago Bulls team that we can talk about on a nightly radio show the such as the one we host that we call foul territory again. It's on at ten. Pm Pacific Time. Monday through Thursday John on the Mike any at me as well Sirius. Xm To eleven iheartradio streaming live at sports byline dot com but The Knicks and this year the warriors. Because they don't have Kevin Durant they haven't had steph curry or Klay Thompson For a long part of the season and they have not been very good New Orleans get some headlines because they have the first overall pick but he didn't play for a while I n Williamson and then the Detroit Pistons. I only bring them up because Detroit's just had such bad luck across the board. The Tigers Lions are always bad. Tigers had a little little run there but I did not equal title for them The Red Wings. It's been a few missile playoffs. The last couple of seasons and the Pistons. It's been a long time to have a guy named Derek rose who was drafted by Gen goals. Show by the Bulls yeah it was an MVP with the Chicago Bulls the thing that sticks out to me most and I know that you know this because they bring it up all the time is John. Calipari talked about him. You know the one year that he was at Memphis that you know he's got to grow up. It's like ten grilled cheese sandwiches the day. I wonder if he continued that. Or if you cut down to a more reasonable number like six. I feel because I'm an adult now. I feel like you never grow tired of eating grilled cheese sandwiches. There are never enough grilled cheese sandwiches. Especially when your doctor tells you that you specifically need to stop eating grilled cheese sandwiches so maybe just one or two day? No more like zero zero. That's that's a sad NBA player. You can eat that many and not have the same cholesterol issues and whatnot off. You Play Twenty eight minutes eventually though right and it's all just plaque buildup and arteries needs the ticker all right. Speaking of sad conversation. Let's let's go through some of the sad sacks Teams of local interest to us. The sons Teams of local interest to you the Bulls. Your family was into the Bulls though not just because they were winning but because they were something to do something to do something to watch in the winter when the blackhawks run on TV. I guess mostly I mean there were some S- lumper years there where the Bulls were struggling to fill the stadium. We're struggling to pull up the ratings. Seattle think that the Bulls can quite catch the same way. That Cleveland is in saying that they were never relevant without Michael Jordan. Everybody says that the cavs weren't who have never been relevant without Lebron James. Despite the fact that you know both teams have made the playoffs without that superstar player to have the Bulls. Obviously more recently. Because it's been a long time since. Mj played for that team so You and I are the first to admit that we don't follow the NBA. All that closely. But you know if something is big even if it's not something that we watched especially closely. We should be familiar. Names should at least ring a bell. So I'M GONNA go through a couple of names the balls. They will do the cavs. And I know that you watch cavs a little bit more than the average Chicago born native Because you know you're in such close proximity to me but the cavs haven't been much to watch of late so let's start with the Chicago Bulls and I'm just GONNA name off a couple of players and you give me one to ten how familiar you are with the name and I'll start with making nineteen and a half million dollars a year. Zach Levine Levine. I know who that guy is. Okay so that's a tad. I know who that guy is but obviously not enough because I think I've in mispronounce his name several times on the show and you do vital score updates each and every night that we go live all right. How about Lauri Markkanen? He's making five point three million dollars a year and he's a University of Arizona. This is supposed to be on numbers. Let's go with like negative fourteen. Fourteen negative fourteen Larry Markkanen Otto Porter. Jr. is their numbers their numbers lower than negative fourteen or negative fourteen. I'm just GONNA keep nagging at fourteen as my lowest number Shaquille Harrison from Tulsa. So I'M GONNA put him at his six but I don't know why I think it's just because Shaquille seems familiar familiar. Kinda Fun name earlier you let me give you one more. I played in the National Championship for Villanova Ryan Archie D. Ikano Villanova was in the national championship. Oh all right all right. Let's move onto the cavs Cavaliers Matthew Belva. I okay so I do recognize that name but I am surprised. I didn't know he was still there. I didn't know he was still a calf are how about Kevin love our Israeli. You know with the seven. Dali we're GONNA go with Well no I'm very familiar with his name. I just did not know. He was still wearing a cavs uniform. And Kevin Love is like a positive fifty million. I Dunno wonder. Ten thing just doesn't work Tristan Thompson that again like scully credentialing connections to right. That's a bonus points and bonus points all right personal stuff. Not only do I know he is a CAV. I know personal things. Okay okay. That's not think Andre Drummond familiar with the name but again surprised to see he is a CAV recent acquisitions yes? Barriers of Trade deadline in two thousand twenty. How about Deandra eight moving out of the sons Bison not a CAV say down the street player Phoenix Suns? So that's a ten devon booker positive positive a lot about how about Ricky Rubio? Let's get a little more obscure Ricky Rubio number eleven. The Hurry Guy You got it you got it. I'll give you eleven points for that. She's generous count even know names. General Jeff is sports overnight. America's foul territory will very back. Jeffrey tries a free point. Green nineteen points. You're listening to foul territory We are the debt destroyer network. Eddie you have credit card tends student loan debt call now for free information that helps you destroy your debt. It's great advice plus when you make this free call now. We have jet destroyer experts. Ready to help they can show you how to destroyer debt and get your life back on track. Debt problems don't have to be overwhelming. You could live stress-free and debt free credit cards medical bills. Irs Tax problems even student loan debt. Learn about free programs offered by the Credit Card Companies Hospitals. And even the government that can help slash your debt call deck destroyer now for Free Information. Call Now. Eight seven seven three six. Oh zero four zero two eight seven seven three six zero four zero two eight seven seven three six zero four zero two. That's eight seven seven. Three six zero zero four zero two at twenty eight. I struggled with opiates and Meth Addiction. For twelve years I did and said things that the sober me never would have done one day. I realized I was not invincible. I was not exempt. And that's when a friend told me about Ille- Rehab placement. They gave me the tools I needed to get sober and took was the one phone call. Elite Rehab can help you start to break your addiction problem and get sober in as little as seven days and we'll work with your insurance provider to help cover the costs. Plus we have travel assistance programs to get you here by plane or train. Make this free call right now to learn more eight hundred four zero three five nine one to eight hundred four three five nine one to eight hundred four zero three five nine one two. That's eight hundred four zero three fifty nine twelve. She says his final Jen. Rich is always keeping score here on sports overnight America. Hello again agenda back at you win. Some final scores from Thursday march vets over on the court in the NBA. The nuggets edged out the Hornets. One Fourteen to one twelve and Houston goes only seven of forty two from three range. They go on to fall one. Twenty to one zero five to the clippers over on the ice in the NHL. The sabers continued to struggle dropping fifth straight after a four to two loss to the penguins. Lightning struck four times to shut out the Canadians. Four to nothing. The flyers extended their win streak to eight one eight four two one win over the hurricanes that panthers fell in overtime to the bruins. Florida's rape micheals event agenda had five of the Rangers six goals defeating the capital's six to five in overtime. That fifth goal came in overtime. He is only the second player in NHL history to have five goals being scored in overtime. Ottawa edge out in New York islanders. Four to three the stars got shut out by the predators two to nothing and Chicago slowed down the oilers momentum with a four to three win. That's ref from me. Let's throw it back over the jobs territory. I'm Jeff Little NBA which is an interesting Topic of conversation for the both of us because we just don't spend a lot of time watching the NBA Genu obvious. Follow close enough to relay the scores. And Kinda give a highlight from that not a highlight from the game Notable fact from some of the Games that you talk about we've lived out West for a long time we're both from the Midwest but just curious just from not having anything to do with the basketball in particular but Looking back to the eastern part of the country if I Find named off named off a bunch of cities. I want you to tell me worry you would i. If forced to live in one of these places where you would most want to live and I'm just GONNA go from the bottom of the standings on up Cleveland ATLANTA NEW YORK. Detroit I'm going to skip Chicago. Actually I should get Cleveland too so I'M GOING TO GO ATLANTA NEW YORK DETROIT CHARLOTTE Washington. Dc Orlando Brooklyn. Which is again New York Philadelphia? Indianapolis MIAMI BOSTON TORONTO? Or Milwaukee. The Laki tell me where you would lease one of those places. I can't. New York gathered near to believable. So Brooklyn congested. I can't do it Brooklyn's Out New York's out how `bout you see. Do you feel like it's the same kind of thing all right. Toronto Toronto very crowded city Canada not going to Canada so it was like Maple Syrup enough sticking things able Sir but but maple leafs games. I mean that's big hockey town could get into it a little bit. Not Worth the risk. Getting sticky sticky SARS Canadians and and they're they're bacon is actually ham. You're not a big CAM. Hate him like every other part of that pig except for whatever reason him all right speaking of pigs Let's go out to actually. I don't have a transition for this. A good effort though. Well it probably wouldn't wanNA live in Wisconsin. No I mean she is Kurds for days. The culver culver is on like every corner here. All right so bill walkie no Toronto Boston again. Way To clustering and not only is it. Cluster three the roads are made of bricks and angled in Lake Jerk. Directions and everything and everything is a one way street. No no no so Miami. I guess of the list. It would probably be the most desirable because they seem to like living there to shed boos him all right. So so Miami. Florida Cross Orlando is not. I don't want to be that close to Disney mess. Norrland DISA- Miami is our really our first. Yeah yeah all right PHILADELPHIA. Nope wasn't Sam. Like actually I just had a friend who was in Philadelphia Philadelphia and their targets. Don't even sell alcohol. There was something else that was slightly annoying stakes. No I'm not a fan of cheese steaks. WASHINGTON DC is too crowded Charlotte. So it sounds like actually Charlotte's looking pretty pretty appealing right now. Minor League Baseball. Yeah emotion. And they're they're not stupid. Bob Cats anymore. They're the Hornets so the NBA is actually a little bit of joy. Now Yeah not the Charlotte Errands Chicago. You've already there done that you visit. But don't live there Detroit. I guess only if I'm in close proximity to pizzapapalis and Greektown downtown Detroit. I mean you gotta walk past a bunch of scorched-earth buildings that they adopted the bird. Now that just buildings are like cockroaches. Comerica was nice. We are probably forbidden from setting foot in for positive that yes because you want to tell everybody why because you covered a non clear bag it was the first week that the bag policy started for the NFL stadiums and It was pretty season and we went to a tigers game. That day met with some friends who live in the area at the delicious pizzas in Greek town in Detroit and then when we were walking back because we went Manson pizza and a couple of drinks and it was time for football to start and for whatever reason the security at the stadium was under the belief that the bag policy applied not only to entering the stadium but like half a mile in every flip and direction of the stadium. I was told that I could not walk down a street that went past the stadium because I had a purse. Fortunately I was with you and fortunately I was able to retrieve the car because I think the answer was. You just can't go get your car because it's it's like what we're supposed to do them like my car is part at the end of this road because we're a baseball game that has nothing to do with NFL. Mc We're not going to your stupid game we just WanNa get to our car and get out of Detroit and this is on me. This is my fault for going back to Detroit because every time I go back to Detroit and they must have some kind of deep love for me that I don't understand but they detained me and hold me there as long as humanly possible. And now you have to go to downtown. Detroit to watch the Pistons rather than being able to enjoy them in suburban Auburn hills which like forty five minutes outside of city limits because they decided they needed to move downtown and I believe that they actually share the arena. Now with the red wings who you also have no desire to see. Maybe I don't even know after that. Last Instance in Detroit my give a crap for Detroit literally got flushed down the toilet Detroit. How about Atlanta Atlanta's still a city? The joke is at Atlanta. Still has a because after. They got their hockey team removed. The joke is that they still have teams. No I granted I be close to all the soda of the COQ sort that I want super fresh and delicious but now now I'm out that's about it to inland too humid teams and you ever go on the SEC. And you know who the most famous Atlanta Hawks. Fan is actually no. I don't even have smirke starting to comment. Let's dad from family ties. Who started all six tremors movies? All I wearing the Atlanta Hawks had do you remember that brief period of time in one of the movies the third of the fourth one he did rock a cubs hat. I believe comfortable's weird. Yeah no we just watched it long ago. Well you watch the track. I watched You want to be a millionaire because I would totally phone my mom right now. He's like mom. What tremors movie did that guy finally wear some kind of Chicago hat? And she put it was in tremors four at the seventeen minute and forty seven second mark. All right it's turn as movies are probably more relevant than the the Atlanta Hawks Ben. And then you've got to Cleveland several times yet. Not as not as advertise probably not a desire destination. Cleveland is a good city. If you don't like actual cities 'cause. I JUST SAT Boston and New York it's clutter and I'm not a fan. I like kind of smaller cities where you can move around. You don't have people on top of you. You're not for taxis for half an hour. I just I like just rolling and not having to stop and you've been to what's now known as the rocket mortgage field house Was the The quickens the quicken loans the Q. Back in the day when you and I caught the cavaliers and the Bulls in downtown Cleveland. We saw arena game there too. We saw into football with the Cleveland. Gladiators there's some nice facilities you never been to a browns game which bend a handful of Indians Games. We did a tour of the stadium though. Yeah I I don't remember what it was going by. It might have just switched over to whatever it is currently being called but yeah we did a tour of the Stadium First Energy Stadium. Espn CLEVELAND Browns stadium but the cavaliers. It's been very cyclical it's been. They have Lebron their incredible. They don't have Lebron. They're not very good. I'm not a fan of the Brown. I don't think you are very much either. We'll talk about his new team. I could talk about his old team so it sounds like Miami's the winner here and sounds like Miami Charlotte Charlotte Edges Out Miami Charlotte Charlotte Knights. Which are the what you're actually the AAA affiliate of the Chicago White Sox but you can catch Carolina League Baseball. So that's all AA couple of good birds that are then familiar and some decent barbecue. Allegedly I've ever really spent a lot of time in North Carolina in over twenty years but the Charlotte. Hornets are probably not the top tourist attraction. There you like the Carolina Panthers to an extent. Yeah okay them cats magnets for me once. But you know basketball. Just hasn't been able to find an identity there. It's actually Michael Jordan's fault too. Because Michael Jordan was running the Charlotte Franchise there for Awhile and the strategy was draft you North Carolina players. And it just didn't work out all that well we're gonNA throw at you a break. She's Jen Jeff. This is foul territory on sports overnight. America it will be right back. Lebron now on the bench for a great stat by Jordan as he's coming. Damore trying to get towards the ball but catches a lot of the upper. Half with Jordan Clarkson obviously the rest will take a look at this and there is a search committee now for the contract wins as to Rosa. Got Up off the side of the head. This is sports overnight America. The bronze aims come into the studio Bernie. On your first real home the road on renting can get a bit rocky takes a reliable partner to right wrong turns. That's the role of a realtor. An expert Voice of reason helping you navigate the rigmarole of real estate. A trusted ally knows represents your rights. You could all the right guidance. On Your journey home is your agent or realtor. Look for the realtors are members of the National Association of Realtors. That's who we are Isaac. He missed the winning dunk and cost your team that championship. What are your thoughts? Well I switched to boost mobile and got a super fast network at four free Samsung Galaxy phones. So even when we lose a still it was an easy fastbreak and no one was near you. Know was fast boost mobile super fast network there calling your shot. The greatest myths in history boost. Mobile's prices are never miss. I even get four lines for twenty five dollars per line per month. Oh look at that. The fans are burning. Your Jersey. Yup The fast. 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How to ask the questions that lead to an open and informed conversation with your Doctor Start Finding Your Voice today at find your NBC Voice Dot Com. It has been said that everyone has a book in them. But you have the time or the ability to write your book. Maybe you picked up some skills or head a life experience that you wanna pass on in the form of a book to help others. Maybe you WANNA leave and autobiography for your family. Or maybe you've built a successful business and you WANNA share your story at Dorrance Publishing Company. We HAVE PROFESSIONAL WRITERS. Who can help? Turn Your Book. Idea into a finished manuscript quickly and affordably a dorrance ghostwriter can provide as much or as little. Help as you need to complete your book. You'll work directly your ghost rider to finish your book faster than you ever could on your own. It's easy to become a published author called Orange. Now to learn more eight hundred four eight five six zero zero three eight hundred four eight five six zero zero three eight hundred four eight five six zero zero three call right now. That number is eight hundred. Four eight five six thousand three step back three in his own way up forty nine point nine spurts. You're listening to foul territory with Jeff Gender Rich. I guarantee you this no problem. Very welcome back. We are rounding third and heading home with this hour of foul territory. Part of the sports overnight America Block again. You can check this out series except channel. Two Eleven iheartradio. Both livestream and the archives shows just search for sports overnight America. And of course you can catch us. Always it's the whole network Sports BYLINE DOT com learn always streaming live and Jen. You have an update Called you out. You did the research during the break and We had what's his name Steven Gross Michael Gross Michael Gross Steven Steven Keaton on the Family ties show but Michael Gross wearing what kind of hat a cubs hat in what movie rumors? German specifically the sixth one. Six addition of Eight. Now he's been in all of them right. Yes he's like he's like the guy he's the guy because it was Fred Fred Fred Ward and Kevin Bacon. He was kind of a tertiary character. He he he was a major part of the plot points. But not the star of the movie. I think that he became the stars. The sequels kept getting made made made when sequel to came around and Kevin. Bacon was like no. I'm not hanging out there. Like what are we supposed to do any of his like Mike? Gross very tremors intense. And they just kept going on and on and on. Zaveri tremors intensive edition of the Foul Territory Program. That's worth related idea. But it but you know he was. He was wearing sports some kind of sports hat and all of them. They had a jump from rock to rock and shoot things. Running heck yes. Tremors was a was a sporting event triggers sportsman. I heard Christmas movie. Yeah all right. So let's let's move on from the Atlanta. They talk that the Atlanta Hawks are going to get. What kind of Hat Michael Gross was wearing in the tremor sequels probably Atlanta. So we're GONNA go west and we're going to kind of do the same thing out west I've got You know La in La are obviously the main contenders during this particular basketball season. Blood also out west. You have golden state which bay area of Minnesota which is Minnesota Phoenix which is our home. NEW ORLEANS You know we're Mardi Gras held once asked you. If you'd never been to Mardi Gras. Do you recall your response to that? It was. Have you seen a fifty gallon storage? Tau marked feeds and I said no and then you said No. I've never been there. I'm not allowed to go. I'm not allowed to go to Mardi gras soon. Guess Portland have you ever been working. No okay I think everything around it now at this point but it's passed through Portland. I think that you know. I spent a week of summer out in Salem. And we took a trip into Portland. Probably went through there for the airport. We've never been to Sacramento the capital. Oh California Memphis You and I have both been there but never together Dallas We've both been there in the heat of summer We we've actually been to multiple Ranger Games and an Astros Game Oklahoma City. I've never been. I never read to Oklahoma. You may have been there because driven through it when I moved to Phoenix when you move to Phoenix. You didn't do much in the way of stopping and so traverse bathroom. It was too bad. We didn't stop until the take something. Okay so if he so. If your bladder was full you better have hoped that the tank was empty. Yeah can you talk? You've Utah Spence. Yeah a couple. I think two nights I have spent a matter of hours in Utah Specifically Midvale Utah. Which is right by. Salt Lake City We mentioned that we've been to Houston so we'd Phillips in Houston We got to breakfast at a place called DUB maybe Barnaby before. We actually fill. It was like making fun of him because we thought it was just some guy that looked like him and then he was like hey. I'M WADE PHILLIPS DENVER. We've Bundu Denver plenty and then you have La AND LA I have been to a clippers. Game never a Lakers game never leaders home game at Staples Center But we've been Ellie Ellie a decent place to visit. But not just doesn't strike me as a great place to live so Going THROUGH THIS LIST DENVER HOUSTON SALT LAKE CITY OKLAHOMA CITY DALLAS MEMPHIS SACRAMENTO Portland San Antonio New Orleans right here in the valley of the Sun Minnesota and San Francisco most desired location to live stain. Here I'm staying here too. I'm saying here. This is the best. We're not obsessed with water. I I think that we could drive to see water. We don't like humidity. We don't like bugs. We DON'T CARE. We have a pool so we're fine. We don't need ocean water with all sorts of weird animals living in it. We don't need high taxes and ridiculous other. I guess I'm I'm GonNa tell you. Florida's beaches are better than California speeches. Imagine so just because the water's nicer the water's kind of nicer. Both cold all of the time. It really does it really. Does I think. There's like a two month period in the middle of the summer where it's not cold. Zor likeable team in La La proper or are we also including donkeys and angels include Orange County? I am fine with duckie's at angels. Okay you're in terms of actual. La chargers now come on. Somebody's got the chargers they be. You know I've ever the clippers the Lakers yes I would. I would actually be very pleased to see the clippers. Hoisting the Larry. Ob at the end of the at the relevant. I mean the broad Lebron going to La and winning. I you know I think nauseate some people. I think. That cement his legacy. Maybe not maybe not up there with Michael. But you're winning with a third team. Qui- asked the same opportunity though and I think that's glossed over the browns just got so much. There's so many more miles on him that you know. I think that you can't. You can't look at those two apple apples to apples as far as winning with three. Different Franchises of course was traded to Toronto and then when he had the opportunity to leave and go to La and secure the bag so to speak and get his paycheck then You know I don't really begrudge Leonard for jumping teams. Lebron has when going out tough. Lebron Geico the quiet Leonard took his took a strata Toronto. There was rumors that he wouldn't play. He played and he won the championship in his only season. There so Toronto doesn't have any sour apples over it and or sour grapes. And it's our grapes spilled milk. Sour grapes anyway. I I respect the way that Leonard has jumped from team to team a lot. More than the way Lebron has but you know you could remember where I'm from Cleveland and say that you know I'm just I'm just bitter about it and it wouldn't be completely untrue. Denver you know Denver's dot got in the Victories with the avalanche and the broncos played the nuggets are more likable than either of those teams. Colorado's just kind of there hanging out middle of the country it's snowy and they're skiing the next day it's eighty and they're sweating to death and they have a nickel. Yokich so they've got your kind of superstar but not a non Alpha male type superstar and I think that that's what some of these Secondary Teams in the Western Conference have going on. Houston's been trying you know. They had Chris Paul and James Harden now they have Russell Westbrook and James Harden it's Kinda to the same thing It's disappointing that they can't really crack the top of the league. They were probably Golden State's best competitor but Golden State pulled away Oklahoma City is just kind of Zombie of what Houston used to be Chris Paul and Stephen Adams probably the big players there and the Dallas has an exciting player that came over from overseas which kind of took the torch from Dirk Nowitzki. So I think that that's kind of a cool story that they've got going on there As far as the basketball is concern. I mean it's La in La. That's that's going to be intriguing if if we don't get there There are going to be people that just are going to check out on basketball. You know much like a lot of people have already checked out on basketball. And that's the thing is basketball. You almost need very specific match ups. You almost need celtics versus Lakers. You Know I. I'm not sure that box versus Lakers. Is that big of a cell either? The bucks versus clippers even less of a cell golden state. Cleveland was exciting. Because you had the super team that Lebron tried to build versus this kind of organic team until grant came along anyway Durant versus the broad. Which was an Alpha versus Alpha matchup? That we never got while Kobe. Bryant was still playing in Kobe versus Lebron because when Kobe finally got their Lebron wasn't able to get there and when Lebron started going regularly with the heat the Lakers just didn't have going on and I think that's where basketball struggles because I don't think it matters who plays in the Stanley Cup who plays in Super Bowl. Who plays in the world series? They really matters from a marketing perspective for the strength of the sport who does play in the NBA finals. Well especially because it's well. I guess you could argue that. Nhl As long to. It's just such a long playoff to finally get to the finals and I think hockey is random. I think hockey is random. Enough that you say okay. Who's got twelve wins and reaches the final? They've earned it versus basketball. Where it's it's it's preordained. It's supposed to be this team this team. It's supposed to be more and more to the fact. This player in this player are supposed to carry their teams there. And if it doesn't end up being the predicted match up it's like okay. Well we'll deal with you know I. I think that a lot of people wanted Philadelphia. A lot of people wanted the Lakers to compete with golden state. And you're on but Lebron got hurt. The team just wasn't good enough around him until they until the trade that everybody you know happening for six months happened over the summer and they got Anthony Davis. And you know I just kinda liked that. The clippers are there to compete with them because Golden State didn't really have any competition in the West. It's nice that the Lakers aren't going to be able to put it in cruise control and just show up in June and I'll make all even You know go against my own team saying that. That's the way the Cleveland was supposed to be. If Cleveland didn't make the finals it was gonna be disappointing and it was going to be a disappointing finals. If it was anybody else you know even if it was the Boston Celtics going up against Golden State. I'm glad that it's not going to be golden state this year. I think that that's one thing that we have to look forward to but at the same time I I'm not sure that either the LA teams are really really represent the casual fan. I don't know I don't like the idea of a fully West Coast Championship. Well it's championship. It's just the the conference USA then. That's one of the things that hockey and basketball guarantees that they're going to have east versus West. Now that could be as close in proximity as Milwaukee versus Minnesota but the timber. Wolves just really never been a threat to be that in hockey. We had Pittsburgh in Detroit. We didn't have a coastal matchup but then in football could be anybody could be patriots. You know it'd be the Patriots and the giants or could be the Patriots and the ramp so you have New York versus Boston Boston versus La And it's it's that random and a that that's okay I think that that's that works to basketball's advantage and I think it works in some ways to basketball disadvantage because if you don't have that West Coast team fewer that Pacific Time Zone team like when you have Miami Dallas. It was y'all if you didn't have the element of everybody rooting against the super team. Miami Heat I don't think that that's series sold very well and it didn't sell very well when it was played before. Lebron got there when it was D wave versus. Novitsky back in two thousand six. You know I I think they you know. Tv needs it. Everybody needs it and even Toronto. It's a big market but Toronto for San Francisco last year's finals. Because you didn't have Kevin Durant most of the way. It was disappointing finals. And it's going to be largely forgotten over the years. So that's our Basketball conversation. I think that we've pulled all the meat off the bone but We'll be back right after the break to wrap it all up. It's foul territory out sports overnight America and we'll be right back you're listening to foul territory with Jeff and Jen rich. For speaking sports overnight America repaid less for craft today than we did twenty years ago. If you're still searching for the perfect solution to a good night's sleep call now for prices and free information on. Today's craft matic adjustable beds. And then decide when you see how little they cost rating number one by consumers nationwide on consumer affairs dot. Com craft. Batic that's coming all mattress types including cooled gel memory foam for up to fifty percent less than today's leading memory. Foam brand enjoy. Temporary Relief of Lobeck came poor. Circulation nighttime heartburn mild arthritis. 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We even offer some of the new Christian faith based health benefits. Save up to fifty percent on your family's healthcare Mak- free quick call now their contracts and we give you a ten day money back trial period call provision enrollment right now for your risk-free guaranteed health insurance quote starting at six dollars a day. Eight hundred four seven two five one four five eight hundred four seven two five one four five. That's eight hundred four seven to fifty one forty five. I don't even recognize myself anymore. I'm really worried about him is addiction. I haven't seen them like this ever. I never wanted to start using. I knew the drill but I was out of options. I just WanNa tell them. It's not your fault there. Are People out there who can help people of felt your pain. They know what you're going. This has to Stop A. I'm losing everything everyone you've been strong your whole life. You can do this but you have to reach out for help. It's time I can do. This addiction is a disease and diseases need treatment. Call Quick Drugs. Three two one now at eight hundred three three eight six nine zero six eight hundred three three eight six nine. Oh six. That's eight hundred. Three eight sixty nine six paid for by the detox and treatment help line. You're listening to foul territory with Jeff and Jen rich took every we are back time. Flies when you're having fun and Genitalia when I told you that we're doing all our va our You might have been terrified. I was certainly terrified that we'd be able to carry a conversation. Of course it wasn't all basketball because you know it's it's ten o'clock at night in the last it's one. Am in the east. It's after midnight in the central time zone So we can get a little bit out of bounds. We can go into foul territory thusly the name of our program here so we talk a lot more about NBA cities than we talked about NBA. Teams jets can be Lakers and box in the finals. But you know he's still got to play the Games. We still gotTA figure it all out. We still gotta find out what's going on. I would say that the NBA still has an image problem because it superstars have to carry it. And I don't know that there's anybody there that's necessarily going to take the torch from Lebron and that's coming from somebody that doesn't really you know adore the man like so many NBA fans do and those aren't the ones that you have to worry about It's I guess it's doing okay on TV but it's not what we're GonNa Watch on TV over the weekend. What do you got for over the weekend? I know this probably gets lame week after week but viewership was down in a week four so watch the xfl. Watch the xfl at other. It's going to be around. We might not even get a full season right at eleven. Am Eastern on Saturday. We'VE GOT SEATTLE AT HOUSTON. The roughnecks are thirteen and a half point favorites in that one New York and Dallas is your nightcap on Saturday that one at two. Pm Pacific Time Dallas heavy favorites even without Landry Jones. Seat Lewis One. Xfl City that does not have an NFL seem. Football is being embraced there. I think that they liked the battle. Hawks maybe more than they like the rams and that's why the rams got too high till it back to La there visiting DC and suddenly Carville Jones team. Not all that hot and then your last game of the weekend. That one in primetime six PM Sunday night. It's the Tampa Bay. Vipers at the Los Angeles wildcats wildcats a slight favorite. Now one for John. You're listening to the Heartland News Radio Network Broadcasting. Live tweet for seven newsbeat. This stream is supported by advertisers and contributions by you us on facebook twitter and instagram incompetent service newscast more six twenty twenty on my Clifford Senator Elizabeth. Warren exited the race for the White House. On Thursday the New York Times reports move comes after her avalanche of Progressive Policy Proposals which briefly elevated her to a front rudder. Status last fall failed to attract a broader political coalition. The Times those who departure means that a democratic field that began as most diverse in American history and included. Six women is now essentially doubted two white men for Vice President Joe Biden and Senator Bernie Sanders California's taking action on multiple fronts to combat trump administration policies state seizes harmful to children. That's according to the State Attorney General Heavier this Sarah. Sarah was among those honored on Thursday at the State of the child. Twenty twenty event Myra Alvarez with the Children's partnership notes that California's Ag has launched multiple lawsuits to protect access to healthcare and public benefits that really demonstrate California's leadership and upholding our values of diversity in family and community that makes sore. We put our children front and center. Sarah condemned the administration's new public charged rule for so in confusion among immigrant families. Leading many to needlessly withdraw from programs that benefit their. U S born children. I'm Suzanne Potter issues. State of the Child Event Commemorates the twenty fifth anniversary of founding the Children's partnership. It is a nonprofit that has successfully pushed for extra funding in the new state budget for early education and supportive home visits for new mothers the State of Florida's investigation into a domestic violence nonprofit and it's alleged misappropriations of millions of dollars of state funds. Ramped up this week with a lawsuit against the group's executive leadership. It says tiffany car. Who led the Florida? Coalition against domestic violence was paid seven hundred sixty one thousand dollars a year at the time of her resignation and with paid time off received seven million dollars in compensation over three years even as the shelters under her groups management were short on funding. Then Wilcox with the watchdog nonprofit Integrity Florida's says the state probe is long overdue corruption. Yeah I think potentially criminal corruption work to see how it plays out the Department of Children and families which has contracted with the coalition since two thousand and three follow lawsuit Wednesday targeting car the coalition's board of directors and executive officers on Thursday. The Florida House also approved a motion to serve car with the subpoena by any means necessary after department accused her of stonewalling oversight attempts. I'm Trammell Ghanem's he. Governors lawyers are asking the court for more than thirty thousand dollars in damages for each of the fifty one council that complaint against the coalition. This is pianist. Despite these politically divided times. America's turns out are still ready to listen to health officials during the corona virus epidemic. Eric taken off explains that's according to a February survey from the University of Oregon. Which finds trust is high in doctors and in the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Ellen Peters Director of the Center for Science Communication Research says respondents. Politics predicted their trust in politicians but not health officials even among conservatives. President trump was not the most trusted it turns out that among conservatives and liberals alike the most trusted where the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention as well as people's doctors in Oregon. There are three confirmed cases of novel. Corona virus according to authorities in the past week the trump administration has said it will tighten control over health officials messaging on the virus. An amendment will soon go out to principals New Mexico's largest public school district. Reminding them about the district policy on ice agents. The Albuquerque School district has the most kids in the state and its policy prohibits federal agents from coming onto a school campus. Unless they have a warrant Brendan Baca who manages the district's refugee and newcomer supports program. Says the memo follows a February statement from city. Officials referencing a recent surge in local rest. Buy Ice. It was in response to the activity that we've seen throughout the city. There has been about a tenfold increase in the number of detentions by ice in Albuquerque. I'm Roz Brown. Finally are serious reports US lawmakers in Albany debate a proposed three percent increase in school funding. Educators say that Community School. Show the best ways. Some of that money could be spent. New York. City has two hundred sixty seven community school serving one hundred thirty five thousand low income students brown working with community based organizations community schools. Take a holistic approach to education providing students and the community was services it helps stabilize children's lives and promote learning according to La Toya Ramjet apparent and PTA president at PS. Sixty seven in Brooklyn Phil Services. Go far beyond what happens in the classroom at our school. We have dental and vision screenings and asthma case manager mental health counselors and even the food pantry. Recent three year study by the Rand Corporation Found York City Community. Schools have had positive effects for students across a variety of outcome measures. Margaret Crotty is CEO of partnership with children. Which is working with sixty seven. She points out that life circumstances is associated with poverty like trauma hunger and insecurity have physiological impacts on a child's brain that affect learning. This story was produced with the regional reporting from Florida Road L. for Yes media Mike Clifford from public service. We are member. Listener supported Emmer online at public. Do Service Dot. Org Niece Sports byline broadcast network. Commander the catch. Us Live at ten o'clock. Pm Pacific Time. Monday Thursday Jeff Richer with you from Phoenix Arizona. Gender Rich will join me in studio in just a second. And it's a ball by year or We're talking about professional basketball. We're talking about the association. College basketball deserves. It's time and as we draw closer to the madness as we get into the bigger conference tournaments. Perhaps VAT conversation will get its due but Let's look ahead to April and May and for some teams You know it's already time to start thinking about the lottery and the NBA draft at the end of June but not a lot of surprises. Miami's been good at home. Philadelphia's been disappointing. But they're still gonNA make the playoffs. Boston is what you expect them to be. Toronto is the defending champion. But not exactly the same team coming back in one thousand nine hundred twenty. No they had a little bit of fall off they lost. I believe a couple of people as you know I focus more on. Ncwa an NBA. But it has been an interesting season. Go I Leonard. A big part of that Toronto Championship team he relocates the West End Immediately. Brings relevancy to the clippers. Not Tally basketball. But I- La Basketball vigors to be extremely relevant. Because you have as you like to call the drama with the Lakers. And then you have Leonard whose one in San Antonio he's one in Toronto Kenny win with the other L. A. And it's a big question. I guess that it's been interesting. It's GonNa be fun to see it. Go down the I guess quote unquote final stretch all right and then. Houston tried to upgrade by adding what Russell Westbrook they subtract. Chris Paul Chris Paul kind of the headliner with the Oklahoma City Thunder but Houston just doesn't seem up to snuff to commute with either of the Los Angeles teams here in the twenty twenty season as we approach the twenty twenty playoffs. She's General Jeff. This is Paul Territory on sports overnight. America you're listening to the sports byline broadcast network and we'll be right back. This is sports overnight. America the type of guy that wants look put together but doesn't want to spend hours at the mall finding new clothes so you can look great at the office on the road or even just on the weekend with friends and family I hear you. 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Healthcare payments are planner. Perfect for people that are self employed. Can't afford health benefits where they were or just WANNA pay less for their current healthcare and coverages guaranteed regardless of your medical condition. We even offer some of the new Christian faith based health benefits. Save up to fifty percents on your family's healthcare make a free quick call now there are no contracts and we give you a ten day money back trial period call provision enrollment right now for your risk-free guaranteed health insurance quote starting at six dollars a day. Eight hundred four seven two five one four five eight hundred four seven two five one four five. That's eight hundred four seven to fifty one forty five. Hey travelers do you want to save money on your next flight? Sim Pick up the phone and call. That's right call because the best prices are not online. They're with smartfares. See smartfares has special deals with the airlines. 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Everybody welcome back in is how territory we're talking NBA and we're GonNa get to the contenders but first let's talk a little bit about the pretenders Jeff Rich gender rich with you from Phoenix Arizona. If you don't know our backgrounds are longtime Venetians She grew up in the Chicago area. I grew up in the Cleveland area. We've both got what like fifteen plus years of experience under our belt probably not most of them rooting for Phoenix teams. Though yeah I'm going to hit fifteen years this summer. So you've got fifteen years coming up this summer fourteen plus years for both of us I'm I'm approaching what Nineteen years in the alley of the side Probably our focus more on the oats. The diamond backs The Sun devils. Think even the data have been Kinda love and hate depending on what was going on. 'cause they were quite contentious with the cubs for a while. Oh let's have never been a fuss. I don't believe cardinals have ever been a fuss. We've always liked the diamond backs. The sandals I think we did dance briefly with the wildcats but decided that we like our hometown. More we do our hometown more and I'm going to bring up some Arizona wildcats here in this segment. You know we're going to talk about the contenders restock the dregs of the League which talk about the teams. That aren't very good despite the hype that they tend to get urine in year out. You know you brought up a New York you brought up. Golden State and Golden State's got titles New York. It's been a long time Predates either of our lifetime saw since they've last won a title and it's it's been since we were children which is weird because they're so relevant and so many other things you the city of New Yorkers but the Knicks are not. I mean the Rangers Rangers tend to compete in the NHL from time to time. It's been a while for the maths. But they've been in the world series. The Yankees of course have won the world series but not in the last decade. It's for actually the the twenty times that came and went with the end of twenty nineteen war first decade that did not see the Yankees. Play it or win. A world series and What else we got. We got the islanders they were. They were really good in the seventies and the eighties. It's been a while for them as well. But the Knicks just the Knicks. Just haven't done much of anything they used to be. Michael Jordan's main competition in the Eastern Conference and speaking of Michael Jordan. He played for the Bulls for a long time. Lifelong Washington wizard also played a short stint of his career with the Chicago. Bulls right WHO's Michael Jordan so They want some titles in the nineties. Sixty six of the that were out there to be one in the nineteen nineties. But it's been a long time the that's not the Chicago Bulls team that we could talk about on a nightly radio show such as the one we host that we call foul territory again. It's on at ten. Pm Pacific Time Jam on the Mike and he hit me as well Sirius Xm to eleven iheartradio streaming live at sports byline dot com but The Knicks and this year the warriors. Because they don't have Kevin Durant they haven't had steph curry or Klay Thompson For a long part of the season and they have not been very good. N- Orleans get some headlines because they have the first overall pick but he didn't play for Awhile Zion Williamson and then the Detroit Pistons. Eilly bring them up. Costa Detroit's just had such bad luck across the board. The Tigers L-lila lines are always bad. Tigers had a little little run there but I did not equal title for them the Red Wings. It's been a few. They've missed the playoffs. Last couple seasons and the Pistons. It's been a long time to have a guy named Derek rose who was drafted by WHO JEN Poles. Got Mostly by the Bulls. Yeah it was an MVP with the Chicago Bulls. You know the thing that sticks out to me most and I know that you know this. Bring it up all the time. Is John Calipari talked about him? You know the one year that he was at Memphis that you know he's got to grow up. It's like ten grilled cheese sandwiches the day. I wonder if that or cut down to a more reasonable number like six. I feel because I'm an adult now. I feel like you never grow tired of eating grilled cheese sandwiches. There are never enough grilled cheese sandwiches especially that you specifically need to stop eating grilled cheese sandwiches so maybe like just just one or two a day like no more like zero. Oh it's such a sad NBA player. You can eat that many and have the same cholesterol issues and whatnot if you play twenty eight minutes eventually though right and it's all ges plaque buildup arteries who needs who needs the ticker kick all right speaking of sad conversation. Let's let's go through some of the sad sacks teams of local interest to us the sons Teams of local interest to you the Bulls. Your family was into the Bulls though you know not just because they were winning but because they were something to do something to do something to watch in the winter when the blackhawks were non TV I guess mostly I mean there were some S- lumper years there where the Bulls were struggling to fill the stadium. Were struggling to pull up the ratings but Seattle that the Bulls quite catch at the same way. That Cleveland is in saying that they were never relevant without Michael Jordan. Everybody says that the cabs weren't have never been relevant without Lebron James. Despite the fact that you know both teams made the playoffs without that superstar player has bulls obviously more recently. Because it's been a long time since. Mj played for that team. So you and I are the first to admit that we don't follow the NBA. All that closely but you know if something is big even if it's not something that we watched especially closely we should be familiar named. Should at least ring a bell. So I'M GONNA go through a couple of names from the Bulls and then we'll do the cavs and I know that you watch cavs a little bit more than the average Chicago born native. Because you know you're in such close proximity to me but cabs haven't been much to watch of late so let's start with the Chicago Bulls and I'm just GONNA name off a couple of players and you give me one to ten. How familiar you are with the name and I'll start with I making nineteen and a half million dollars a year. Zach Levine. I know who that guy is. Okay so that's a tad. I know who that guy is. But it's not because I think I mispronounced his name several times on the show and you do Fi final score updates that we go live all right. How about Lauri Markkanen? He's making five point three million dollars a year. No and he's a university of this is supposed to be on numbers. Let's go with like negative fourteen. Fourteen negative fourteen Larry Markkanen Otto Porter. Jr. is their numbers their numbers lower than negative for T- slower than negative fourteen. I'm just GONNA keep negative fourteen as my lowest number Shaquille Harrison from Tulsa. So I'M GONNA put him at his six but I don't know why I think it's just because Shaquille seems familiar familiar. Kinda Fun name. Let me give you one more. I played in the National Championship for Villanova Ryan Archie. Cotto Illinois was in the National Championship. All right let's move onto the cavs Cavaliers Matthew Della Vedova. I okay so do recognize that name but I am surprised. I didn't know he was still there. I didn't know he was still a CAV. Are How about Kevin Love? Oh Yeah Oh yes definitely. No WE'RE GONNA go with a seven for Dolly. We're going to go with well. No it's a ten. I'm very familiar with his name. I just did not know he was still wearing a cavs uniform on just like a positive fifty million. I don't know it was one to ten thing just doesn't work a Tristan Thompson. That again like credentialing mansion connections to right does he does bonus points points all right personal stuff not only do. I know he's a Cav but I know personal things about him. Okay okay I guess that's worth something. Andre Drummond familiar with the name but again surprised to see he is a cab. Recent acquisition Yes very said trade deadline in twenty twenty about deandra eight. That is not a cab. I think he say down the street player. So that's a Tad Devon Booker positive positive a lot about how about Ricky Rubio? Let's get a little more obscure Ricky Rubio number eleven. Hurry guy you got it. You got it. I'll give you eleven points for that. She's Jenner's county no-name Jeff. This is sports overnight. America's foul territory. We'll be right back. You're listening to foul territory help third. We're the debt destroyer networking any debt. You HAVE CREDIT CARD TANS STUDENT. Loan debt call now for Free Information. That helps you destroy your debt. It's great advice plus when you make this free call now. We have debt destroyer experts. Ready to help they can show you how to destroy your debt and get your life back on. Track DEBT. Problems don't have to be overwhelming. You could live stress-free and debt free credit cards medical bills. Irs Tax problems even student loan debt learned about free programs offered by the credit card companies hospitals and even the government that can help slash your dad call the deck destroyer now for free information. Call now eight seven seven three six zero four zero two eight seven seven three six zero four zero two eight seven seven three six zero four zero two. That's eight seven seven. Three six zero four zero two at twenty eight. I'd struggled with opiate and Meth Addiction. For twelve years I didn't said things that the sober me never would have done one day. I realized I was not invincible. I was not exempt. And that's when a friend told me about the Rehab placeman. They gave me the tools I needed to get sober and all it took was the one phone elite. Rehab can help you start to break your addiction problem and get sober in as little as seven days and we'll work with your insurance provider to help cover the costs. Plus we have traveled assistance programs to get you here by plane or train. Make this free call right now to learn more eight hundred four zero three five nine one to eight hundred four zero three five nine one to eight hundred four zero three five nine one two. That's eight hundred. Four zero three fifty. Nine twelve attention homeowners. Do you have a house? That's in need of serious repairs. Do you have tennis? That never seemed to make their monthly payments. How about code violations past due taxes or maintenance cost you just can't afford then call my friends right now. Quick cash offer. They specialize in buying any home. No matter how ugly the situation turn that problem property into cash right now. It's just that simple one call and you can get rid of that home headache forever. They buy the ugliest houses with instant. Closings instant cash and huge savings plus there. No realtor fees no listing fees. No repair costs just cash in your hands for that painful property. They're buying a few more houses in your neighborhood this month. So take advantage of this cash. Offer and call quick cash offer Now eight hundred four to six to three zero one. Eight hundred four to six to three zero one. That's eight hundred four to six twenty three o one pass you by chance at a weight. Foretold crosby kicked a fire the last lab she says is final. Jen Rich is always keeping score here on sports overnight America. Hello again generated back at you. Whip some final scores from Thursday march the Fed over on the court in the NBA. The nuggets edged out the Hornets one. Fourteen to one twelve and Houston goes only seven of forty two from three point range. They go on to fall one. Twenty to one zero five to the clippers over on the ice in the NHL. The sabers continue to struggle dropping a fifth straight after a four to two loss to the penguins. Lightning struck of four times to shut out the Canadians. Four to nothing. The flyers extended their win streak to eight eight four two one win over the hurricanes the panthers fell in overtime to the bruins. Four to three bikes have agenda. Had Five of the Rangers six goals defeating the capital's six to five in overtime. That fiscal came in overtime. He is only the second player. Nhl History to have five goals being scored in overtime. How EDGE OUT THE NEW YORK ISLANDERS? Four to three the star got shut out by the predators to nothing and Chicago slowed down the oilers momentum with a four to three win. That's a wrap from me. Let's throw it back over the job. We are back. It's foul territory. She's Jen I'm Geoff sorry little NBA. Which is interesting Topic of conversation for the both of us because we just don't spend a lot of time watching the NBA. Genu obviously follow close enough to relay the scores you know. Kinda give a highlight from not a highlight from the game but a notable fact from some of the Games that you talk we've lived out West for a long time we're both from the Midwest but just curious just from not having anything to do with the basketball in particular Looking back to the eastern part of the country if I find named offer named off a bunch of cities I want you to tell me were you. Would if forced to live in one of these places where you would most want to live and I'm just GONNA go from the bottom of the standings on up Cleveland ATLANTA NEW YORK. Detroit I'm going to skip Chicago. Actually I should skip Cleveland to so I'M GONNA GO ATLANTA NEW YORK Detroit Charlotte Washington DC Orlando Brooklyn. Which is again New York Philadelphia? Indianapolis Miami Boston Toronto. Or Milwaukee. Tell me where you would least one of those places. New York gathered here. So broke out too congested. I I can't Brooklyn's out. New York's Out Buddy C. J. D. C. To congestion to feel like it's the same kind of thing all right. Toronto Toronto very crowded city Canada. Not going again on that. So it's enough to hit sticky things you don't like the Maple Sir but but maple leafs. Games. I mean that's big hockey town could get into it a little bit. Not Worth the risk. Getting sticky sticky SARS Canadians. Yeah and and and they're they're Bacon is actually him? I don't know if anybody's ever you're not a big campaign hate him. I like every other part of that pig except for whatever reason have all right. Speaking of pigs close go down to actually have a transition for this could effort though. Probably wouldn't wanNA live in Wisconsin Cheese Kurds for days. The Culver Culver on every corner here very soon. Bill Walkie no Toronto Boston again. Way to cluster and not only is it clustering the roads are made of bricks in England. Jerk directions and everything. Everything is a one way street. Yeah no not doing it. No no so Miami. I guess out of the list. It would probably be the most desirable players like living there to taxes. Food Him Right so so Miami Florida Cross Orlando's not I don't want to be that close to Disney mess. All right so soon Orlando so. Miami is our really our first. Yeah right now in Philadelphia. Nope wasn't a sampling. Actually I just had a friend who was in Philadelphia Philadelphia and their targets. Don't even sell alcohol. That was slightly annoying. But you don't like to use days. No I'm not a finishes she sticks. Washington DC is too crowded Charlotte. So Sam like actually Charlotte's looking pretty pretty appealing right now. Minor League Baseball. Yeah emotion. And they're they're not stupid. Bob Cats anywhere there the Hornets so the NBA's actually a little bit of joy. Charlotte HERONS CHICAGO. You've already been there done that you visit but don't live there. Detroit. I guess only if I'm in close proximity to apples and Greektown. Let's downtown Detroit. I mean you've got to walk past a scorched-earth buildings that they attempted to burn down. That just destroyed. Buildings are like cockroaches. Portis America was Nice We are probably forbidden from setting foot in for pretty positive of that. Yes because and you want to tell everybody why because you carry a non clear bag it was the first week that the bag policies started for the NFL stadiums and it was pretty season and we went to a tigers game at that day. Met Up with some friends who live in the area at the delicious pizzas in Greek town in Detroit and then when we were walking back because we went and had pizza and a couple of drinks and was time for football to start and for whatever reason the security at the stadium was under the belief that the bag policy applied not only to entering the stadium but like half a mile in every flipping direction of the stadium. I was told that I could not walk down a street that went past the stadium because I had a purse. Fortunately I was with you and fortunately I was able to retrieve the car because I think the answer was. You just can't go get your car because it's only going to do like my car parts at the end of this road because we're at a baseball game that has nothing to do with. Nfl MC. We're not going to your stupid game. We just want to get to our car and get out of Detroit and this is on me. This is my fault for going back to Detroit. Because every time I go back to Detroit they must have like some kind of deep love for me. That don't understand but they detain. Be At hold me there as long as humanly possible. Now you have to go to downtown Detroit to watch the Pistons rather than being able to enjoy them in suburban Auburn but it's outside of the city limits because they decided they needed to move Downtown and I believe that the actually share the arena now with the red wings. Sue you also have no desire to see. Maybe I don't even know after that. Last Instance in Detroit my give a crap for Detroit literally got flushed down the toilet as much you choose. Detroit. How `Bout Atlanta Atlanta is still a city. The job is Atlanta still has a because after. They got their hockey team removed. The joke is that they still have teams know. Eh granted I be close to all the soda of the COQ sort that. I launched super fresh and delicious but now now I'm out that's about it to inland too humid really of any other teams and you ever go on the SEC. And you know who the most famous Atlanta Hawks. Fan is actually no. I don't even have a snarky started coming dad from family ties. Who started all six tremors movies all I worry me Atlanta Hawks at you remember for a brief period of time in one of the movies third of the Forest One. He did rock a cubs hat. I believe weird. Yeah we just watched it a long ago. I watched Do you want to be a millionaire? Because I would totally phone my mom right now if you like. Mom What tremors movie did that guy finally wear some Kinda Chicago hat and she picked trimmers for at the seventeen minute and forty seven second market. All right terms movies are probably more relevant than the. The Atlanta Hawks have been even Cleveland several times. Not as not as bad as advertised probably not a desired destination. Cleveland is a good city. If you don't like actual cities because I thought Boston it's cluttering. I'm not a fan. I like kind of smaller cities where you can move around. You don't have people on top of you. You're not screaming for taxes for half an hour. Just roll in and not having to stop and you've been to what's now known as the rocket mortgage field house Was the Taken quicken loans. The back in the day when you and I caught the cavaliers and the Bulls in downtown Cleveland signing arena game there too and we saw arena football. We saw the Cleveland gladiators. They're so clueless. Got Some nice facilities. You never been a browns game but you've been a handful of Indians Games. We did a tour of the stadium though I. I don't remember what it was going by. It might have just switched over to whatever it is currently being called. We did a tour of the stadium. First Energy Stadium Cleveland Browns Stadium But the cavaliers. It's been very cyclical it's been. They have Lebron their incredible. They don't have Lebron. They're not very good. I'm not a fan of Lebron. I don't think that you are very much either. We'll talk about his new team. I can talk about his team so it sounds like Miami's the winner here and sounds like Miami. We'RE GOING TO GO CHARLOTTE CHARLOTTE EDGE THAT WAY Charlotte Knights which are the which are actually AAA affiliate of the Chicago. White Sox but you catch Carolina League Baseball. So that's all those lawyer in some decent barbecue. Allegedly I've ever ever really spent a lot of time in North Carolina in over twenty years but the Charlotte. Hornets are probably not the top tourist attraction. There you liked. Carolina Panthers to an extent them Alley. Cats MAGNUS ONES. But you know basketball. Just hasn't been able to find an identity. There is actually Michael Jordan. Small to Michael Jordan was running the Charlotte Franchise there for Awhile and the strategy was to draft Duke and North Carolina players. It just didn't work out all that. Well we're throat you appraise. She's General Jeff. This is territory on sports overnight America. And we'll be right back ready to own your first real home. The road on renting can get a bit rocky. It takes a reliable partner to right wrong turns. That's the role of a realtor. An expert Voice of reason helping you navigate the rigmarole of real estate a trusted ally who knows and represents your rates so you could all the right guidance on your journey home is your agent. Realtor look for the realtors are members of the National Association of Realtors. That's who we are. Hey sorry he's the type of guy that wants to look put together but doesn't want to spend hours at the mall finding new clothes so you can look great at the office on the road or even just on the weekend with friends and Family. I hear you. This is why they're stitch. Fix Your personal. Styling service delivers handpicked. Close right to you stitch. Fix a simple sign up in just a few minutes. 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At participating restaurants. Only price may vary in Hawaii. What a fly somewhere looking for cheap flights or cheap tickets then call. That's right. Call the low cost airline travel hotline now for prices so low. We can't publish them anywhere. Low Cost Airlines has all kinds of cheap travel deals fly domestically and save up to seventy five percent. You can even fly internationally and save even more. Yes fly anywhere in the world and save a lot of money on your plane tickets. We'll even save you money with cheap travel. Deals on hotels. Rental cars even complete travel packages. So don't book your tickets until you call us first for the absolute cheapest prices on US and International Airline tickets. Hotel Call Right now for prices. Solo. They can't be published travel. Experts are here twenty four seven to eight hundred seven five four four five three one. Eight hundred seven five four four five three one eight hundred seven five four four five three one. That's eight hundred seven five four forty five thirty one. We're talking byline. Sports more sports happens. That's you're listening to foul territory with Jeff and Jen rich. Lebron James Come into the studio. Everybody welcome back. We are rounding third and at this hour of foul territory. Part of the sports overnight. America block again. You check US out siriusxm channel. Two Eleven iheartradio. Both livestream and the archives shows just search for sports overnight America. And of course you can catch US always gets the whole network on sports byline dot com always streaming live and Jen You have an update. I called you out. You did the research during the break and We had what's his name Steven Gross Michael Michael Gross Steven Steven Keaton on the family ties. Show but Michael Gross Wearing what kind of hat cubs hat in. What movie tremors specifically six one. Six addition eight. Now he's been at all of them though right. Yes he's like he's like the guy the guy because it was Fred Fred wars man. It was Fred Ward and Kevin Bacon. He was kind of a tertiary character. He's a he he. He was a major part of the plot points. But not the star of the movie. I think that he became the stars. The sequels kept getting made made made when sequel to came around and Kevin. Bacon was like no. I'm not hanging out there. Like what are we supposed to do and he was like like gross very trimmers intense and they just kept going on and on and on a very Trimmers intensive edition all territory program. That's worth related idea. But but you know. He was wearing schering sports as some kind of sports hat. And all of them they had a jump from rock to rock and shoot things and running and yes tremors was was a sporting event is trevor's sports. I I heard a Christmas movie. Yeah let's let's move on from the Atlanta. They talk that. The Atlanta Hawks are going to get as what kind of hat Michael Gross was wearing. In the tremors sequels probably. So we're going to go west. We're going to do the thing out west I've got You know l. a. In L. A. Are obviously main contenders during this particular basketball season but Also Out West you have golden state which bay area Minnesota which has Minnesota Phoenix's which is our home New Orleans Mardi Gras is held. I once asked you if if fly you've ever been to Mardi Gras do you. Do you recall your response to that. It was have you seen a fifty got gallons storage tub mart beads and I said no and then you said No. I've never been there. I'm not allowed to go to go to Mardi Gras. You've been to San Antonio yes Portland have you ever been asleep at work? You know? Okay I I think everything around it now at this point. It's through Portland. I think that you know. It's been a week of a summer Salem and we took a trip into Portland. Probably went through there for the airport. We've never been to Sacramento the Kapitolo California Memphis. You and I have both been there but never together Dallas We've both been there in the heat of summer We we've actually been to multiple Ranger Games and an Astros Game Oklahoma City. I've never been. I never read to Oklahoma. You may have been there because you driven through it when I moved Phoenix but when you moved to Phoenix you didn't do much in the way of stopping traverse bathroom. It was too bad. We didn't stop until the tables empty. Okay so if you want to so if your bladder was full you better have hoped that the tank was empty. Yeah Utah Utah Spence. Yeah couple I think two nights I think in Utah. I have spent a matter of hours in Utah Specifically Midvale Utah which is right by Salt Lake City. We mentioned that we've been to Houston so wait Phillips in Houston We got to breakfast at a place called Baby Barnabei's before we actually. It was like wait. I was like making fun of him because we thought it was. That looked like him and then he was like. Hey I'M WADE PHILLIPS DENVER. We've do Denver plenty then. You have La AND LA I have been to a clippers game. Never game never a Lakers home game at Staples Center But we've been to L. L. is a decent place to visit but not just doesn't strike me as a great place to live so Going through this list Denver. Houston SALT LAKE CITY OKLAHOMA CITY DALLAS MEMPHIS SACRAMENTO Portland San Antonio New Ans right here in the valley of the Sun Minnesota and San Francisco. Most desired location. To live. Stay in here. I'm staying here too. I'm saying here. This is the best. We're not obsessed with water. I can drive to see water. We don't like humidity. We don't like bugs. We don't care we have a pool. We'RE FINE. We don't need ocean water with all sorts of weird animals living in it. We don't need high taxes and ridiculous other. I guess I'm I'm GonNa Tell You. Florida's beaches are better than California's beaches. Badgen so just because the water's nicer nicer. Both Goldstein gets cold. All of the time. It really does it really. Does I think there's like a two month period in the middle of the summer where it's not cold or Zoo likeable team in La La proper or are we also including duckie's angels include Orange County. I am fine with doctors and angels get your terms of actual. La chargers no. Somebody's got like the charges. Why can't I be you now? I prefer the Lakers. Yes I would. I would actually be very pleased to see the clippers. Hoisting the Be At the end of the at the end of the House and they've been relevant. I mean Lebron and Lebron going to La winning. I you know I think it would nauseate some people. I think that it would cement his legacy. Maybe not maybe not up there with Michael but you're winning with a third team quiet same opportunity though. I think that that's glossed over. Lebron just got so much so many more miles on him that I you know I think you can't. You can't look at those two apple apples to apples as far as winning with three different franchises of course quite was traded to Toronto and then when he had the opportunity to leave and go to La and secure the bag so to speak and get his paycheck. Then You know. I don't really begrudge Leonard for jumping teams. Lebron has got off Lebron Geico quite Leonard took his. He took his Toronto. There was rumors that he wouldn't play. He played and he won the championship in his only season. There so Toronto doesn't have any sour apples over it and or sour grapes and it's our graves spilled milk sour grapes anyway. I respect the way that Leonard has jumped from team to team a lot more than the way Lebron has. But you know you could remember where I'm from Cleveland and say that you know I'm I'm just I'm just bitter about it and it wouldn't be completely untrue. Denver you know. Denver's dot gotten the victories with the avalanche and the broncos played. I think the nuggets are more likable than either of those teams. Colorado's just kind of there hanging out middle of the country it's snowy and they're skiing the next day it's eighty and they're sweating to death and they have a nickel Yokich so they've got kind of a superstar but not a not an Alpha male type of superstar. I think that that's what some of these L. Secondary Teams in the Western Conference half going on Houston's bench crying you know. They had Chris. Paul and James Harden Russell Westbrook and James Harden its attitude the same thing It's disappointing that they can't really crack the top of the league. They were probably Golden State's best competitor but Golden State pulled away. Oklahoma City is just kind of Zombie. What Houston used to be Hock Chris? Paul and Stephen Adams probably the big players there and the Dallas has an exciting player that came over from overseas in a Llegado. A kind of took the torch from Dirk Nowitzki. So I think that that's kind of a cool story that they've got going on there as far as the basketball is concerned. I mean it's La La. That's that's going to be intriguing if if we don't get there There are going to be people that just are going to check out on basketball much like a lot of people have already checked out on basketball. And that's the thing is basketball. You almost need very specific match ups. You almost need Celtics versus. Lakers you up you know I. I'm not sure that box versus Lakers. Is that big of a cell either? The bucks versus clippers is even less of a cell. Golden STATE AND CLEVELAND was exciting. Because you had the super team that Lebron tried to build versus this kind of organic team until Durant came along anyway and then you had durant versus Lebron you know which was an Alpha versus Alpha matchup that we never got while Kobe. Bryant was still playing in Kobe versus the broncos. Because you know when Kobe finally got their Lebron wasn't able to get there and when the Lebron started going regularly with the heat the Lakers just didn't have it going on and I think that's where bad basketball struggles because I don't think it matters who plays the Stanley Cup who plays in the super bowl who plays in the world series. They really matters from a marketing perspective for the strength of the sport who does play in the NBA finals. Especially because it's well and I guess you could argue that. Nhl As long to. It's just such a long playoff to finally get to the finals and I think hockey is random. I think hockey is random enough that you say okay you. Whoever's got twelve wins and reaches the Cup final know? They've earned it versus basketball. Where it's it's it's preordained. It's supposed to be this team in this team. It's supposed to be more and more to the fact this player and this player are supposed to carry their teams there and if it doesn't end up being the predicted matchup it's like okay. Well we'll deal with it. You know I think a lot of people will wanted Philadelphia. A lot of people wanted the Lakers to compete with golden state. And you're on but Lebron got hurt. The team just wasn't good enough around him until they until the trade that everybody had happening for six months happened over the summer and they got Anthony Davis. And you know I just kind of like that. The clippers are there to compete with them because Golden State didn't really have any competition in the West. It's nice that the Lakers aren't going to be able to put it in cruise control and just show up in June. And I'll make an all even you know. Go against my own team saying that you know. That's the way the Cleveland was supposed to be. If Cleveland didn't make the finals it was going to be disappointing and it was going to be a disappointing finals. If it was anybody else you know even if it was the Boston Celtics. Y'All going up against Golden State. I'm glad that it's not gonNA be Golden State this year. I think that that's one thing that we have to look forward to but at the same time I I'm not sure that either the LA teams are really really represent the casual.

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Words On Water #93: Bryan Stubbs on Clevelands Blue Economy

Words on Water

25:16 min | 1 year ago

Words On Water #93: Bryan Stubbs on Clevelands Blue Economy

"Got word. Welcome to words on water. A podcast from the water environment federation, this is the host Travis loop going to talk today with Brian Stubbs, executive director of the Cleveland water alliance. Brian, how are you doing? Well, thanks for having me Travis. I invited you on the podcast when I saw a recent article about Lake Erie. I think it was kind of a blog that you authored about creating a smart lake eerie. So I I'm definitely looking forward to talking about that. But I could you talk about the, the Cleveland water license. What is it? We're what's known as a water innovation cluster, which is a fancy economic development. You know, way of thinking or design in terms of how do we grow a local economy in our case? It's through water innovation water technology and our, our water asset. So our core were if I've a one, c three nonprofit economic development, organization when we say cluster what we're talking about, is, you know, first of all. All we bring in three kind of vertical areas into our effort. The first is utilities are best friends, and why we're here is because of folks like the north east Ohio regional sewer district on water who see a role, not only on the economic development side, but also on how they can better innovate and look at new technology new innovation. So that's one group second group, our research institutions, and that ranges pretty broadly, we bring in those water researchers from places like Case, Western and Ohio State and a and, and so on that also goes up to the federal level of a real interesting part, ship with NASA, where we have a NASA research center in Cleveland, and we have known as a space act agreement for water technology with them. So we also work with federal labs. Of course, we work with Noah's chloro- lab, so second vertical and then third vertical courses industry. And we have a lot of companies that, that we work directly with at range and terms of sizes from all tied national. All the way down to pre revenue technology starts up. So what we do is we take all of those assets, and we blend them together to grow the research pie to grow the impact in our community to grow technology, and ultimately do to grow jobs, which we've been successful at, at doing just here in cuyahoga county alone. Now also, you know, Cleveland's the name and that's where we're based. But our, our service areas been growing fairly aggressively over his last two years. So, of course, we serve as Cleveland and all of northeast Ohio, but we've been finding ourselves working not only through all of Ohio, but also end to Michigan, and particularly the Detroit area all the way through to the western side of New York in the buffalo area. So it's Cleveland in the name, but kind of Lake Erie base, and innovation ecosystem, as we say, I'm a bit familiar with water chat, clusters from might time, actually at US EPA, where we worked with the water tech clusters around the country, including yours. And now at the water vibrant federation, where we're. Trying to help coordinate the different water tech clusters around the country. It's really cool. I'm a big fan of them. I love how you talk about the different parts there from private companies to research into Touche's to utilities themselves. What makes that model so effective and productive it the model on itself? We want to be careful on its own and not manage is ineffective, and really what the core role is of these innovation clusters the leaders is, how do you coordinate that? How do you get trust with an all those partners? So. Example, would be a company that was spun out of Cleveland state university, here that had to do with machine learning around conveyance systems and initially it was technology used more for the industrial application. But in this case, somebody had that Eureka moment to say if you thought about water because water sure requires a lot of conveyance, and that's the biggest energy grab at most of our utility plants. So, you know, a group like ours can come along and say, hey, this is a research thing that is being spent out hadn't thought through an opportunity around water were going to make the introduction, just your utilities and actually spirit a couple pilots say will it work. In this case, you know the company it did work and they saw about eight to twelve percent energy savings accompany, since it's been purchased by a multinational, which is also part of it. So like the grow the pie. We think water is underfunded nationally. So we'd like to see that push that we see into energy smart. Grid technology going into water, so it's having the recipe for. For that sort of trust building say, we're in this together, you know, there's not one utility that should be like a we're out here on our own. They don't wanna be out there on their own. So, you know, I think being affective is bringing all those parties together partnership and trust their those relationships. That's really the key to making it work. Could you talk a little bit about some of the products and projects that have come out of your cluster there in Cleveland? Yeah. Absolutely. And quite a few. And that's one thing. I'm particularly proud about from from our effort is, there's a lot of to talk. It's harder actually implement. You know, I gave you a quick little example, there around a water pump technology. So the one that we're really, you know, neck deep into the lottery with to speak is the harmful algal bloom early warning system. This one is a partnership with, with Cleveland water alliance with the Great Lakes observing system with one of our engineering firms called limb, no tech, they out of Ann Arbor, and then also a little bit with a high. OC grant in terms of their community engagement. But, you know, we're working with about twenty plus utilities on a predictive harmful algal, bloom early warning system. And, you know, it's, you know, it's a lot of your listeners will know you know, there was a crisis until Lido in two thousand fourteen harmful algal blooms, have a toxin Microsystem as their as their product and that got into the Toledo water system. So that time, you know, a bunch of folks really quickly, put together some sensors and some monitoring equipment and it was like a Frankenstein approach, you know you do what you need to do in this emergency situations. But in this case, we, we've now been able to catch our breath and say, Kay, we're going to need these sort of systems in place. Longterm not only for harmful algal blooms, but a lot of other things such as poxy, and if we were going to build it from scratch, what would that look like and not only what would it look like, how would it be funded? What's the model on this kind of, like water data sharing amongst utilities? It's not just a single utility as I mentioned, twenty plus utilities. So in this case where the project. Lead where or managing it a lot of the. Kind of data science behind. It is through the Great Lakes, observing system and then limb, no tech are good friends. They're the ones who are putting those buoy systems actually out into the water and then partners like ours. That include Wia Cy yellow springs instruments, actually have those songs or those optical monitors. They're going into their so that's a real program, where about halfway into it by the end of next summers filled season. We hope to actually have this in place, and have the funding model around to where those utilities, or maybe paying a, a service, fee model versus actually trying to handle a quick that they're not trained to necessarily handle directly. So that would just be be one example. Of course, we're also doing that with high poxy, but then, you know, taking the next direction, you know, some interesting work going on right now are some, we have the Cairo Kyle cuyahoga river here. And we have to dredge it every year. And there's still some nasty legacy contaminants in that. So we're looking at technologies. That will reduce the need for dredging. We try to capture this materials before they get into the shipping channel, you know by removing that right next to the HOGAN cleaning that and actually returning that material as road filler into the system, so creating a beneficial use, and then, of course, you know, all sorts of sort of technology, which are regions known known for, but, you know, bring it back home is for us as always gonna be about this smart and connected system. So, you know, we're currently working on a three million dollar NSF submission for the San dusky bay on a lot of instrumentation that, that takes all this next step. Yeah. So I mean it's fascinating stuff. I think maybe I just saw on social media, about one of the buoy getting deployed recently even in the past few days or something like that. And I definitely familiar with the Toledo drinking water incident from years ago and just that the algal bloom nutrient pollution, problem there on the lake. So I guess that's why monitoring is such a folk. Just that's the one of the big key challenges for, for the lake and the region. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And you know, be before I kind of really get deep into that. The Billy's are blast, you know, we, we actually have Twitter accounts or the we'd have their own Twitter account, and is getting people fishermen the charter boat fisherman everybody in the community realizing that these boys are live and active. You know it's funny we ran a up I should say we didn't run the Plain Dealer. Our local newspaper ran an article or took one of the writers out to one of the and we mentioned. Hey, did you know you can text the believe it'll give you all the real time parameters off it. You know, they'll text you back. And she was blown away by that. That article, you know, year ago still is today, one of our most kind of viral. I mean, it's still active. It's still alive people. Just went crazy. We actually killed are, are Verizon uplink in this case, because they thought it was under a cyber attack. Many people are using it. I mean, you know, these are good problems. We want our elementary systems seen L are working on a lot right now with AT and T on this to be safe and secure from a cyber standpoint. But also, we want more people using them, so fun, things like that. So. You know, to your question. You know, the, the Belise are our primary monitoring devices on the open water, and it's very important. We have those you know, as I mentioned, you know, things like harmful algal bloom warning system. If we can give first of all starting with warning, and, you know, leading those utilities know what's coming their way, so they can be prepared for it. So they can operate most effectively efficiently starting point just to clarify for some listeners. You know, a lot of those, those utilities their draw draw water from the lake. Right. That's like a source water for drinking water, so they don't wanna be taking in this water. It's got a harmful algal bloom it, and that's, that's a big problem. And that's what happened in Toledo. Just for those people. That might not be aware. No, I really appreciate you bringing that up Travis. Yeah. It's, it's, you know, the ecosystem that, that is our region is we said on Lake Erie, one of the five Great Lakes are lake alone over eight million people utilize Lake Erie for their drinking water here in Ohio. So it's a crucial source of that. Rawle water. So having an eye on at know what's coming at it is extremely important. Not only for, you know, human health, but even for our industry, you know, when we look you know what we're doing around manufacturing. Sometimes we need things like ultra pure water. You know, the, the science behind that water. It's crucial. And then, of course, we've got a lot of robusta microbrewers that really you know, rely on that water quality. But, but no, that's, that's a great point. You know realizing for your listeners, realize that this is the major source of drinking water is, is Lake Erie as part of that. And then, you know, our idea is while we're putting more assets when when referred to assets monitoring devices on the open water, you know, that includes he's that have these interchangeable optical sensors and other sensors, a lot of those come from, from Wia side hope things like blue-green algae, tr- ability, connectivity, a lot of weather parameters. Go in there we can really start to a kind of story. And in some ways, we start to visualize that story with data on what the health of the water. Is in particular, spots, and how's that movie now as we move forward? We're taking the same thinking in the same kind of monitoring approach up the watershed, and of course, our big challenge here is excess nutrient pollution, so it's, it's nitrogen phosphorus basically, it's washing off of farm fields so to that point, we wanna help our Accu munity also realize that they're losing money when those nutrients will off through field. So as we go up the watershed with these monitoring devices will be able to go more on a higher prioritize, where do we need to go in, I with, with interventions to help keep those excess nutrients out of the water system. So it's all one big smart and connected system as we like to say, and then, you know, the other part of this, it's, that's newer to us is we're now engaging around remote-sensing around water quality. So it'll be a couple of really interesting pilots getting back to what we do on some of our projects, and programming is some fixed-wing remote-sensing where we can tell faucets levels, not just in the lake. We've got that now through Noah a couple of other partners but actually getting them to tributaries and even on the edge of fields. So, you know, this, this is why that, that blog was titled, you know, creating a smart Lake Erie, right? I mean this is this is incredible. Just infusion of, of technology and kinda cutting edge digital sensing and monitoring into Lake Erie. That's, that's what the real crux of that, that blog of yours was about. Yeah, you're you're about on with that assessment. You know, we, we in Cleveland you know, part of this rust belt. Would have been a little slow on some things. We've recovered from any facturing moving away. And when the whole smart and connected cities, kind of saying, happened, it was so exciting and so many cities where they're doing it. We weren't ready for it. But now, we realized well, I think we are ready to actually create the first smart and connected, great lake. And that was how this whole thing got started as say we have needs. We have technology. We have really great companies in the space. We've got great researchers in the space. You know, let's, let's actually use lake eerie as that I kind of step towards getting all five, Great Lakes, kind of similarly, smart end connected. So, yeah, it all starts there. Yeah. You know, you mentioned that you were slower out of the box, and there are other places where you saw things happening with smart cities and so forth. But I mean just my impression may be anecdotally from seeing media social media is just tons of buzz around what you guys have going on there now. So the definitely seemed like you've caught up or an are maybe leading the charge when it comes to Kana a region. A region's water body being digital and being smart. Really cool stuff. One of the things I had saw eerie hack. Could you talk about that? Yeah, absolutely. So we're big believers in. How do you drive innovation? How did you drive technology? And how do you drive community engagement, and using open source innovation and open innovation competitions to do that? So few years ago, we launched the first area hack, which is a hundred thousand dollar innovation challenge. And it's fun. The very first thing we did was. Realize we can't do this just in Cleveland, you know, it's about the entire basin. So we went to Detroit woman when you went to Toledo, we went to buffalo, we went to Windsor, and we got all those cities engaged from philanthropy through to the utilities and say, you know, we want to basically come about creating solutions a little differently. We wanna get the best and brightest interview communities, that may not be in the ladder space might be in tech space. They may be developing something for fintech. You know which is which is a big thing here in Columbus, and it's fintech than tick fintech, and I'm like about water, TEK water tech water TEK. So how do we change conversation? So we were in it went around to the cities, and we brought NASA with us, their, their creativity and innovation team. And we brought together a lot of people have never been brought together before, and it was interesting in places like Toledo, it's not, you know, a huge city it's a big city, but not a huge city and realize I had people never met each other, which was maybe the IT head for the sewer district and the water department with, you know, the person leading the last star. And up that was, you know, successfully exit again around in unrelated technology and saying, let's bring you all together. So basically, you know, through that idea Asian process. We came up with what we wanted to solve or what you know, no big surprise. It was things like nutrients loading. It was things like better, using media meaningful data than, of course, it was some other things near and dear to all of our utility partners aging infrastructure coastal resiliency. All that kind of fun stuff. And then, of course community engagement. So we, we put these challenge statements out to the public. We put real dollars behind it. And we said, solve them. So we launched the first one a little over a, you know, as I mentioned two and half three years ago developed some really cool technologies out of it that, you know, if not for, you know, us doing this. I don't think we would have seen. Good example. There is a, a team out of the university of Akron developed a handheld spectrometer for nitrogen phosphorus loading. It's a forty dollar three D printed. Handheld spectrometer. You use it with your smartphone. While you GO sink where you are at loads at that the image right up into a database where you we use machine learning to analyse, and we start telling picture of, you know, where where are we having nutrient challenges? And where can we design interventions, you know, another team developed a much more cost effective buoy system. You know are are expensive. I mean, some of those ones, we don't fully loaded are over one hundred thousand dollars. How do we get those two nineteen thousand dollars? You know so they're working on that. So that was the first one, we just watched our second version of Iraq. So we're in the middle of it staff is at capacity, which had the last quarter-final into Lido last Saturday will be having the semi-finals into Troy in in June, and then the final will be back here in Cleveland on June twentieth. Just two days prior before that fiftieth anniversary of the hook river last catching on fire. But, you know, let me, let me stress open innovation works. It's a really good way to. Not have huge dollars put into getting really good ideas. So we also do smaller versions, we did the internet of H, two O, which was an end to end solution for monitoring analyzing and visualizing that data, just around nutrients, and so it's, it's a lot of fun. I just give you one little teaser is that we were right now talking to ASA about doing an open innovation challenge around water usage on human spaceflight to Mars, maybe a little out of our ecosystem, but we're still going to go in there because we think it'll lead to potential solutions that will be available on the ground here. Sounds like a completely fun and fascinating project. So you just mentioned, you know that it's just about then fifty years, this year's fifty years this Jews since the famous cuyahoga river fire, I think it was around that same time that time magazine, you know, on its cover declared Lake Erie. Dead nine have all this activity in Cleveland. Right. And the creation of, of a smart Lake Erie. Do you feel? We'll obviously you're bit biased and impartial here. But do you feel like what's going on with the Koga river? With Cleveland's water community with lake. Erie is is really wanna waters biggest comeback stories. I don't I don't know how you could say no to that. Now that I've set up that way, but. Look, it's an important story to be told in this country. You know, we, we didn't we weren't good stewards, you know, at one point around our water, and that was throughout the Great Lakes region and it wasn't just Cleveland. That had rivers catching on fire will always laugh that time magazine article shows a picture from a a fire from the nineteen fifties and not the last one small fire in the in the late sixties. But it's just one of those everybody always mentioned that. So, so, yeah, look, we leave you this way. I think this is really important. Fifty years of innovation and technology around waters, what this community got out of that, you know what happened fifty years ago. So if not for that, firewood, I have two hundred cluster industry companies here, working on all sorts of, of water technology, filtration, be monitoring. You know you name it any point in between. So, you know, if not for that, we wouldn't have one of the greatest job creators here in Cleveland, and cuyahoga counties. You know our blue Konomi sector added just under a thousand net new jobs between twenty four. Fourteen and twenty sixteen that was more than protect that was more than additive manufacturing and advanced manufacturing combined all three combined. So, you know, for us, it's, it's, it's been great the rivers and really good shape. It's really recovering, you know, we've got rollers out there but is still an active working river, one of our partners. And our lake steamship, still bringing in his big aggregate ship said, are, are providing the raw material for arcelormittal, which is spending the ultra lightweight to hoods and fenders for next generation cars so still very much a work in river, but it's, it's a clean river. We've got kids out there railing every day as part of a high school program. You know, I think it's a great story. And it's one I'm proud of up. I'll just allow me just one other quick story share. I took this when it takes us position. Five years ago, people didn't want me to talk about the cuyahoga river burning. And I'm like seriously. This is one of the greatest comeback stories ever. So important that our country came together and said, you know, we need to take a little better care of our. Water. So I heard them and I just said, I'm going to talk about it left and right. And that's what we're doing. But were excited as I mentioned, we got Erie hack on June twentieth. Two days before the fiftieth anniversary, where those final nine innovations will pitch in front of a pretty power tact group of judges from a lot of our water tech firms from Connecticut from Silom, and then, you know, the day, we'll have the policy, you know, story with the Cleveland city club on the anniversary. We got all sorts of fun things. Cleveland water, north east Ohio regional sewer district on that Sunday, we'll be having our three D printers set out and having kids, three D print, these handheld spectrometers dealing water samples, right there by the rock and Roll Hall of fame. So it's, it's a great story for us. That's all that's awesome. Last thing I want to ask you about is definitely related to Lake Erie, but a little bit out of the technology realm, I guess, and this was in the news while ago where voters in Toledo. Ohio have become the first in the nation to grant a lake. The say. Same rights, as a human being the Lake Erie, Bill of rights passed a special election vote, giving the fourth largest of the Great Lakes, the right to exist Flores flourish, and naturally evolve. What's your take on that? Well, personally, I love the story. I love this story. It's really sending the message it, we just need to be better stewards, practically, it'll, you know, I think there was like twelve lawsuits within like an hour of nine o'clock that next morning after a past, and you know, we, we've had a lot of these discussions around Lake Erie. We would like to see a lot of our challenges not go through the courts, which is what this would mean is, as the courts whenever gets through the courts, those solutions are a lot more prescriptive and a lot more narrow intend to not allow for innovation and technology. So now that being said, I think it helped kind of wake up some of our policy makers here in the state to say, you know, let's, let's do this collectively. Let's do it together. So I think from that standpoint this conversations are going on. You know, we'll see see where things go as a response to our Kern. Governor new governor wines, it's to Haya fund, which is you know, he's he's put out there. We'll see if it happens nine hundred million and then. Water-quality efforts for the state of Ohio. I think that should be applauded. So if Toledo coming to the rescue, and getting in highlighting, you know, the attention that it needs through that Bill writes that gets us the nine hundred million that we really do need then. That's a home run. We'll take that you'll take that Bryan make. Yeah. Awesome stuff. I encouraged listeners to, to check out what's happening up there in Cleveland and the greater the greater area along the lake, and with, with your Cleveland, water alliance, and I look forward to keep track myself, and thank you so much for the time. Thank you Travis.

Cleveland Lake Erie Great Lakes Toledo Ohio water environment federation Travis loop NASA cuyahoga river Noah cuyahoga county time magazine Detroit Brian Stubbs Cleveland state university Lido
Designing Work that Doesnt Stink

The Indigo Podcast

46:42 min | 6 d ago

Designing Work that Doesnt Stink

"Welcome to the INDIGO PODCAST and exploration of human flourishing at work in beyond I'm Ben Baron of INDIGO ANCHOR and Cleveland State University, and I'm for seven of indigo anchor for more information. Please visit us at www dot indigo podcasts dot com. So today we're GonNa talk about designing work that doesn't stink and that's right and there's plenty of it out there as you all are aware. So we're GonNa talk about what job satisfaction is, and we're GONNA talk about why it matters. We're GONNA talk about five different facets or pieces of job satisfaction, and then we're GonNa talk about what's called the job characteristics model and how managers can make work more satisfying and motivating and how if you're stuck in a job that stinks how there might be some ways that you can improve your situation then you've actually done. Research into stuff I dirty work you know kind of like that show that guy has it's a little bit like that show. But yeah, we'll get into that a little bit. We move on because there are there are plenty of jobs out there that aren't particularly pleasant, and in the literature, we actually define those types of jobs as those that have some sort of stigma or taint that society places on him. We'll talk about that a little bit as it relates to how you can deal with that. But maybe we start with this whole thing of job satisfaction. You know this used to be kind of the thing in the world of organizational psychology whereas like, Hey, we. It's everything we need to study this study this and at some point, I think this is one of those constructs that someone who came along and said, all right. We're dealt with job satisfaction thing we know that it's a good thing, but there's probably other things that matter to Let's move on. So it is important however and it has to do with with kind of our emotional reaction to work. Are you know the level of our pleasure or displeasure with our work on a on an overall basis right? So this could fluctuate from day to day, but you know in general, you probably have kind of a a baseline of where you are in your job. Yeah. So you know, I. Think most people when they think about job satisfaction, it's me giving a rip about my circumstance right and you know you know managers give a rip about driving some productivity goal and the organization just cares about taking all my sweat off my back and handing it to shareholders. Right it's like the circle of. Something like that. You know. You know whenever I hear that Song I always think of the the lion king spectacular. Whatever show that they do at Disney like it is unbelievable you gotta go see it. When you go to Disneyworld, it's awesome. But yes, I something like that, right we all have different reactions to work. And certainly, I think about different jobs that I've had in the past you know I. Can I can say, yeah, this one was more satisfying than this one. How about you? Yeah. Definitely, working with Baron, sadly most satisfaction I've had in my that's Horrible the year that I hope your situation and produce. But grief. But here, here's some of the things though it's like, okay I care about satisfaction but they might boss or manager or whatever. You know he's carrying about that productivity but we're also talking about what you know the Indigo podcast is about human flourishing at work and beyond, and we can take a broader context. So here's another disturbing kind of peace. It's almost like that litany of articles around. Here's why you should do stuff. You should do because you're a good person because it gives you value. Here's here's as a manager why you should care about your team satisfaction because it's GonNa. Make your performance go up so you can get promoted. So it is interesting, right? I remember back in Graduate School when I was first working on my PhD and you know US talking with some other professors and one thing we talked about is you know you gotta have a good dependent variable you know and it's it's oftentimes good to to show how something relates with job performance that's kind of a big kind of dependent variable that we use in. At least in psychology and. To your point though like some things might matter even if they don't matter for performance. Yeah. Now, if you're in a cinderblock building, right, we're we're in the military how many Cinder Block buildings have we done working? Why do they paint the walls? Because they look like hammered garbage if you joan, there's like yet the. Especially on the interior, maybe on the exterior matters but on the interior would save US millions of dollars to not paint the interior, but it's just a that's not how you WanNa live in the world right now fashion how we dress like I guess it's okay. You know for something but we do it because why we like to show who we are we live close it might be comfortable. I mean there's so much in the world to work. Like what do why do we have to do this painting Drywall in your house? Your kids are just GonNa put Marker on it. You know. Having Nice furniture your dog are catch just gonNa eat it up because it's what makes life sweet. It's like. Well, why do we don't? We just eat all our meals at of Gu packs at the astronauts use. These are these are ridiculous questions, but there's this underlying bias and the way we look at these things I think in the broader social conversation on link. Then three reasons why you should give a rip about your employees well I'm concerned that we even have to have an article for somebody like who are these pete, right is the world that we want to live in. The world that you want to live in the world I wanNA live in is one in which people care about each other and care about each other satisfaction. For no other reason. Right. Full Stop. But to your point, there are some other benefits out there to job has faction. Now, this is different. From we'll be called organizational commitment job satisfaction isn't necessarily just about your intent to remain part of the organization. That's what we call organizational commitments and it was interesting for a long time. The prevailing thought was well, if we have high jobs as action if we have happy workers, then we're going to get you know higher performance and it's interesting because the research has kind of evolved to a point where it shows that that's kind of a mixed thing. It's not actually that strong of a relationship between one's job satisfaction and their performance. You know there are all kinds of reasons why you might be satisfied with your job one of them that you don't have to work very much. Yeah know. The you know. I mean this is totally biased and stereotype but like the pejorative dmv employee yeah I just love chatting with Nancy all day and you know I just see the applicants as I feel like it. You know this is the best job ever, but there's there's nothing about performance but this underlies like these things are attached and detached in our human experience tour. Sure. And when I talk about this with MBA students, you know I was one of those classes where I I kind of get on a little soapbox and to your point Chris it's not about necessarily that. Having happier workers having people with higher job satisfaction is necessarily going to make them have higher performance. It might a little bit right but there's also performance also kind of drive satisfaction you're performing. Well, you also get more satisfied. So that's a little bit complicated, but there's another piece of this, which is you know we spend a lot of our waking hours at work. Especially, in the United States and so our Western cultures, we spend a lot more time at work, and because of that, there's a big relationship between how satisfied you are with your work and your life satisfaction, and you know I make an appeal to my students saying look. We need a world in which people are satisfied with their lives and part of that is your job satisfaction. So to the degree that you can, as a future Titan of industry, make people's lives a little bit better and make their work a little bit more satisfying. You'RE GONNA make a difference in their life satisfaction. You might actually be lowering their blood pressure little bit and that makes the world a better place. You really can't change the world by just being a good manager now and it's a portfolio of happiness here is. Just like you just don't put all your money into one stock, right? You have maybe an index fund or you got a mix of stocks bonds and that kind of stuff. So you've got like your personal relationships or your romantic. Relationships. You've got your maybe savings in financial plan. You've got where your work and by having a portfolio, you can stabilize your life satisfaction but just think if everything else was awry, you know you're married to somebody is a total jackwagon. Right. Now I can feel the is roll right now right and then you go to a crappy job. And then you're looking, you're looking at one of the others. It's like you know I don't. EAT garbage all day every day at this crappy job to come home to the worst relationship right? Your portfolio is that a whack and your life satisfaction is tanking and so. Yes there's definitely more pieces to this, but life satisfaction, and because of all the time we spend a work and because work is generally tied to our financial being I think it's an important one for us to focus on here. I concur. Absolutely. So obvious. Obvious. So maybe now, we can move on and talk a little bit about more specifically what are some of those big facets or pieces of job satisfaction? Because you can think about this in a bunch of different ways, right. So when we ask about this for example and surveys, you know there's usually a question that's kind of your general jobs as and it's like you know all in all I feel satisfied with my work right or or something along those lines. However, there's also a couple of different components that can give us some clues as the different pieces that come into that puzzle of overall job satisfaction. So in general, we look at five different pieces of this. So this is something for all of you out there to be thinking about with regard to job satisfaction how you might influence it for other people at in In your workplace but also maybe how you can understand your own job satisfaction a little bit. Yeah cash that's cash is one of them. Number number one is. In in ranked order year. But yes, one of them is pay. Yeah. Because let's be honest. She'll meet good friends at work in everything and maybe they grow into the kind of people that even if you won the lottery, you'd still hang out with. But with without some kind of paid a lot of times, these relationships don't form. You know you don't. You know we're coming together to achieve X.. Okay. I. Think like a lot of the people that are working on Kovic vaccines, right. Now, a lot of them are just coming together for the love of. Here and the hundreds of thousands of people of lives that they can save. But they also got to like eat during that time and so a lot of pay brings people together and it's a way of ascribing value to how a collective. Everybody talks about cash this thing. But really it's a way of organizing is how I view it. What's worth getting together and doing or not? Now, some people just like you know crush candy on their phones are virtually farm with their friends while they make a fake mob Okay. Well, there's enough people that value that kind of stuff that you know you could organize around pay or solving electric car problems but pay is one of those things that were the rubber meets the road is it worth Co. showing up at the end of the day? Right and you? Think, it's a little bit problematic to think of pay as the only thing that motivates people at work, but it does need to be there as kind of a baseline, right? It's You know you want to pay people enough that they're not thinking about pay all the time you want to pay people in line with what the industry pays for that type of job. So they don't have big feelings of inequity because that can really motivate people to or demotivate people. Ending on which side of that equation you're on. So pays one of them. A second one and again these are not in ranked order anything you just different pieces but a second one here is your promotion opportunities. And you know people oftentimes not all people but people do like to see some potential for a future for them in the organization that may be goes beyond just where they currently are and I think this is probably more applicable to people earlier in their career in certainly there's all kinds of individual variants here but promotion opportunities this number two. Yeah and you know we'll have to talk about these at a later time but there's some moderators to these things like some people really need to grow. If I don't have a chance to grow every year, I'm GONNA pull my hair out right I wish I had hair to pull out you know. Other people, are you know they get to a place in the like man? This is it. I'm going to do this I'm GonNa be my Bowling League on the weekend I'm going to raise my kids and be a scout leader domina retire and chase grandkids what life and that's totally cool. So promotion opportunities are important but I can't tell you how many interviews I've sat with people wanting to go from that individual contributor level to their first management role and you say we'll tell me why you want to be a manager. and realize like, Oh, I, just want some more money. So it's really pay issue right? They they WANNA make but when you ask them, no, they don't WanNa. Do the extra paperwork or meetings or or help manage disputes or calibrate schedules that's not something that they're super. into. But for some people is hey, I, can contribute at this level and I'm gonNA climb till. I. Get there. So Yeah I think promotion. And because of this, because promotion opportunities are a big part of many people's job satisfaction. This is why having good career paths within your organization. Now, you gotta be an organization of a certain size to have any kind of career path. But once you get to that level of you know in terms of headcount and you could actually have some career paths that can be a really really great place to kind of build talent management strategy around. So promotion opportunities are important and some people don't want the promotion. How many exacts have we rented is like you know I'm miserable I was way better writing code or something honestly I think some people liked the idea of the promotion more than the actual promotion more than the you know the kind of like the at the title and the idea of social prestige. But then they get there and they're like Oh, this is this is a lot of work or this is not what I imagined. So okay. So promotion opportunities. What's another one while? Hey, who you're working with now, we're talking about my job satisfaction would be so much better if I could do a podcast with somebody other than Chris down. and. You probably feel the same but we for whatever relieving find other people reach the market clearing price for our awesomeness and if settled and. Who you're working with does madder and yeah, we talk about this all the time on the podcasts about how your relationships really matter. You know we are to to some extent social creatures says humans, and if we don't have those good relationships around us, we tend to suffer and. That's part of this and so we or the topic of today's shows designing work that doesn't stink. But you know what? I mean some of the jobs you have to do in the military are just like, oh my yes. But when you're doing it with the group of people that you freaking love you and what do we call it in the military embrace the suck right like. You know this is a stinky horrible Costar Day or mission or whatever. But Man I couldn't be in the trenches with a better cohort of you know numskulls ever. Right. Yeah. We can have when you have good relationships and you have a good sense of humor with each other really can make a not so great situation better. You know I remember times like you know it's it's five in the morning. It's dark cold. You're all standing out there with like a bunch of battle rattle on and you're going to go to arrange or something army guys have already been awake for two hours macey maybe. Because you're there with you know the people on your left and right even if you don't, if you have recently gotten to know them, you can kind of look at each other and you're like, all right. Here we go and you sometimes there's that one person just. Stinks, but you can sometimes bring that person around a little bit of levity. So your coworkers do matter they matter a great deal to your overall satisfaction. So if you have great coworkers, that's a big piece of this, and this is why that social environment that you create in the workplace is very important now and then I guess your bosses the obvious next one, right? Yeah you know it's like you don't pay me and you guys are such jerks. You don't pay me enough on top of that. The boss is bad. You, you can see people wait weighing each job. You know you have these five buckets we'll do the well I mean I. Guess we can say the last ones to job itself. But you know you're weighing. Well, it's like. Well, the boss is awesome, but my team is bad. the pay is super great but I don't really like the people with but it's okay. Maybe I'll just stay here for five years and move somewhere better. You know after I build that addition to the House I want or right those kinds of things but it's funny because you're probably right many of our listeners are sitting here going How am I doing here on these? An APP. You. Can rate the different ones and right should I stay or should I go? That's right. That's right. Should I go good song. So know it's funny. I remember back as a graduate school and I was I, getting exposed to some of these ideas from the literature in industrial organizational psychology. I was I was working at the time I took some of those class I was like man, this is making me think a little differently about my job too but anyway, so your boss does matter. You know managers matter. They really matter of the window through which everybody sees the organization. We've talked about the idea of perceived organizational support on this podcast. Before that perceived supervisor support, you know the degree to which you supervisor cares about your wellbeing and values. Your contributions makes a huge difference. Yeah. He just got notice as a manager first of all that people. Are doing stuff and he got a mention it and say, Hey, thanks right and this is not one of those Oh well, only the millennials want this stuff right first of all, go this episode with court Rudolph Generations don't even really exist generational differences certainly don't exist shouldn't manage to them but you know people like to be supervised well, fairness matters. Kindness matters competence matters well so so they go and we talk about why does it matter? Well, you know the drug deal of performance. Oh I better fake these things so I can get the performance, but here's the thing and I think some of this has to do with the housing stuff homeowners do certain behaviors. So quick let's figure out how to get everybody. into a house. But little did we know that the thing was is the people that have these certain behaviors you know notwithstanding some of our income inequality and some of the challenges facing globally in as a country. But if they do those behaviors, they end up in a house and it's backwards. So it's like you if I do these behaviors, I'll have good employees while really those the thing about the data about supervision is you gotta actually kick her right. So if you're not if you're a snake in a grass. Psychopath you'RE NOT GONNA get to tap into these soft skill awesomeness a performance team. So it's like you get you back into this world you focus on yourself your character who you are if there's elements of your person that are not who you WanNa be that's an existential journey you take the rewards are are countless and you're backing into like Housi- a good supervisor I don't know I just saw always cared about people started working at a soup kitchen and and building habitat for humanity houses and stuff but you. Know. The these are the kinds of things anyway right now I think to your point there is a great deal here that comes from things like character things like integrity and you can to some extent you can say, okay, well, here's some things you some practical things you can do you know manager to make people more satisfied at work and we're GonNa talk about some of those here in a minute but I think thinking about all these different aspects that we're talking about the podcast today are are important. But here's the thing you. It really does need to come from a place of good faith and it's a lot easier to sustain that if you have your head screwed on straight in the first place with regard to how you care about the people in your organization otherwise, it's going to be seen eventually most likely as fake people will maybe react positively for a little while and then they're going to be like well, you know this doesn't really jive with how this person is and I can see through that. So coming from a place integrity really does matter. And that brings us to the last facet of job satisfaction. We talk about pay promotion opportunities, coworkers supervision. Last one is really interesting category that we're going to dive into a little bit in more detail, and this is the work itself what you actually do in the course of your day this really matters. Yeah. So if if it's I pick up the paper from this desk and put it on that desk and they take it from that desk and put it on this desk well, for some people that could be highly satisfying for others it could be mind numbing and this is one we talk about the book, the Chimp Paradox. And and one of the you know the kind of summaries out of that book is you have these that your brain kinda has. A piece it needs, and then your base level person has something that it needs. You know. So if you're kind of person like we all know the kind of person if they don't work out that every day they're they're cranky co worker, you're like man, go get taken our and go do some push ups and come back right because they're you know that chimps side of them just has a need for that physical exertion and stuff. So when we look at our work, the best work for any individual as a place where they're human and chimp can find a place of peace and what they're doing. So for some people that needs to be much more cerebral and for other people, they're like man I just love landscaping why I like to live I go to cross but in the morning and then I like lifting heavy things. So much I wanNA lift everything's all day. Right and sitting putting on a tie and sitting in a cubicle sounds horrible other people's like I just love excel and look at all this math. I'm doing you know brandon AI model on this data set and we're doing machine learning over here. It's Great Different, strokes for different folks. You know. It's funny. actually reminds me of. A conversation I had probably a decade and a half ago or so with Steven Rayle. Goldberg. Guest who we've had our podcast in a dear friend and mentor to me and I asked him at one point. Why did you choose to go into academia over going into industry? With your after you got your PhD and you know he had a bunch of you know great reasons and he said you know in another one and this may seem silly as you know is this is back in the ninety s and he was like when when workplace culture was a little bit more formal and stuff and he said, you know the other thing is I just didn't want to wear a tie. These things about the work itself that that can really matter and that kind of brings us to this next piece, which is we're going to talk about the work itself right as v Facet of job satisfaction we're going to unpack that a little bit using something called the job characteristics model. This has been around for a long time, but it's helpful way to think about those aspects in which the work itself can vary from job to job, and there are also ways in which managers can potentially change. Them right to make them more satisfying and more motivational. We're talking about a little bit what managers and people can do. So that's our next piece but I I just want to encourage everyone to you know we'd love your support that you give to the end to go podcast. Please if you don't haven't subscribed yet, get out there subscribe to the podcast share what we're doing with your friends. The podcast is doing phenomenally. Well, we've been around almost now for a year, which is a mind blowing. Need your support. Yeah. So it's interesting because a lot of people are discovering US and listening to us on the web because they're not regular podcasts, they're not these super podcast listeners that listen to seven plus hours of podcast. So if you're one of those guys listening on the web, you know great but pretty much every platform computer or phone has a podcast APP, go down load one of those subscribed within the APP you'll. You'll thank US later. That's a good way forward for you. Right because then you just automatically get each episode as we release them. So again, appreciate your support. If you ever have any topic ideas, guest ideas, anything that you want to share with us. Good Days please go to Inigo together dot com slash contact we'd love to hear from you. All right. So why don't we talk now about this job characteristics model and what this means. So just like there are kind of five pieces of the job satisfaction puzzle. There are five pieces of the job characteristics model. So we're going to go through these a little bit and we can talk about kind of how work can vary in these different things and the first one, and again, these aren't in necessarily like ranked order. But just the first one we're going to talk about is task variety, right we like in general, of course, individual differences come into play, but we like to use different skills and abilities at various times throughout our work right and and that's just because we're not gonNA get into the rest of this model and this episode but the idea is if the job has good characteristics. To. Yield. Better psychological state in the people that are doing those jobs. Yes and then hopefully, you'll get a good work related outcomes now. That's great. I'm saying you should do this anyway because it's a kind of world you WANNA live in. There's no matter what your you can have bad motivations here. There's a lot of good outcomes all over the spectrum that makes us worth exploring. So that's why we're focusing on these job characteristics 'cause they're going to change your mind to change our world, right so okay. So skill variety you know. What was the make the doughnuts right? Make the they wake up, make the doughnuts over over over over right? Now some people like this is interesting certain aspects of ideas that come out of the east like Japanese culture about an artisanal approach writing. Yes, we are doing this but doing this repetitive tasks about Meditation Yoga a lot of these things they're doing repetitive task in a trance inducing some you know I'm not totally familiar with all the pieces and but there there become something or classical music. That's something I can speak to. You Know you know the tenth time I performed Brahms Requiem was when it really started. Now that's one piece of music right now it's a big one it's a masterwork but so variety. How important that is to some people is greater than others. Now, you can go into that Zen and Polish that repetitive task. That's great too. But also people it's like the first day of part of my day I enjoy. Doing my emails, then I moved into this kind of things and I have some meetings having that kind of diversity and getting up off your desk I mean that's that's really nice I like it and right and and I think most people like this at least to some degree, and this is why one way I'll say that manager could make a little bit more variety come into play in anyone's job is to look at all the different things that are going on your team and you can combined some task saying, Hey, instead of you know Sally doing this and Joe, doing this you know why don't Sally Do both of these jobs both them. They could work together a little bit right that also provides a little bit of Camaraderie, but it also allows them to shift those tasks a little bit and and not get bored because we like to use different pieces of our of our skill and knowledge. So variety definitely a piece of this definitely important to a lot of people. The next is what we call task identity, and this is a really interesting idea, and this is the idea that you can see the whole product of your work and the example I oftentimes think about as actually with a motorcycle company. So there's these I don't even know if they're still in business, but there's a butter cycle company where there was called time cycles and Titan. Yeah. The they made these Joe just absolutely gorgeous motorcycles that were. Insanely expensive and you used to be a motorcycle guy, right? Yeah. Yeah. So my brother had Harley and I had a triumph a we'd ride all over southern California was also but you know my bike was a fraction of a cost of a titan. But some. Things out there and so my brother was telling me a little bit about and he's like, yeah, you know these things actually are built by like one person or maybe a small team but they build that entire motorcycle from start to finish and that can be really satisfying things psychologically to say I built that I you know this is something that I started on I see how my little contributions ended up in this big thing I remember working as a landscaper back in. High School and college like you drive through town and be like a look. There's that little retaining wall I built and it's still up at school like it's it seems Kinda funny now but it does give you the sense of satisfaction that can be released. Really important. Now, the truth is that in larger organizations with division, of Labor that has to happen we oftentimes can get really separated from that overall work product. We can really start to feel like we're just a little piece of the machine, right? Yeah. You literally are just another brick in the long that's beyond it. But, but it's nice to see. The appeal of the whole somebody getting a computer at the end of the day somebody driving a vehicle like you may only work in consumer finance for Toyota. But you know every time you see it Toyota on the street you're part of that mission, and one of the things that I think is cool is during an orientation for new hires and I don't think they should only do it then they should do. That maybe annually, you got to renew the vision in your people and take him on a tour. You know, hey, Larry and finance we're GONNA go see how that Tacoma gets put together. We're GONNA go see the automation look at these robots. It's amazing. We'll put on hard hat and glasses we're going to do all this cool stuff we're going to go and then maybe we'll even meet with an executive and understand or also. A you know when I worked at. Dell. It was really cool. They did a strategy thing where they were just talk about now I was selling computers on the phone. You know I'm about as far at that point and gigging as a musician but. I'm about as far from the CEO as you can get in that Org and I remember they sat down in this huge place and added diamond and they are showing when apple came out with the iphone. And it's like this Dell's marketshare nothing nothing and boom guys we gotta be super. Competitive. In this space we've and it was. You know I mean it was pretty I get it. It's a bit sanitized, but it did make you feel motivated as part of that broader team and seeing how you're part contributes to the whole military does a good job with that as well. Sure. Sure and this is what managers can do this for their people or should be doing this. I'll say they can help them help everyone else see how what they're doing fits into the bigger picture you just. mentioned. The military I remember back when I was on a deployment this was back in two thousand, four house deployed on a ship and I was in charge of the electrons and a lot of these people would just were kind of inside the ship all day and didn't even really have a reason to see the water, right? So navy warships don't have like windows and stuff, right? So at least at least not at not in most places, I got CAD-, cabin? Window So the balcony. Room. You don't have any of that and so it it really could become monotonous or just kinda tedious work doing day in and day out fixing little electrical issues throughout the ship doing maintenance. And you know at some point, it's like, Gosh, how do I really fit into like you know the global war on terrorism and so I felt it was kind of my responsibility. So I appear to periodically remind them of hate like, Hey, this is where we are. This is what we're doing. You know your work on. This is really helping to you know continue. Our mission and so forth and those little reminders I think it'd be one way in which managers can build some of that task identity. The next one and this kind of is related is this idea of tax significance you know we like to do things that seem to matter seem to matter to other people that seem to matter to the world at large. Yeah so I I don't now the the worst thing and I've seen managers do this. The worst thing you can do as crush the of somebody that's on your team. By. Listen this whole. This whole team job is worthless. I'm just here till I moved to the next spot. I mean. Because what we do is significant and don't be surprised if you see a bunch of turnover on that type of team with that type of leader. The the idea is. Does what I do have an impact on the greater world and so despite the fact that we have all this linked and people treating people's another brick in the wall that's GonNa Stop I think one of the most insanely cool things about humanity as that we are looking for significance. Man's search for meaning that book that we talk about all the time you know, Eh, we are meaning creating and seeking and improvising. Viktor Frankl man's search for meaning. If you haven't read that you guys, she'd go check it out but We're we're even. The most homogenized best buy old navy type world right. We're looking for significance here creating that in the tasks that you do. Is. Important. Right and you know it's not that most of us don't have jobs in which we are literally curing cancer or developing of Co vaccine or something in which it is so obvious that it has huge significance, right so another show that I'm watching right now with my wife on Netflix is called away and it's about this first man mission to to. Mars right it's a it's a fiction piece, right? Of course, but very ads this where all the wives want their husbands to go to Mars and it knows that is the happy ending. The commander of the mission is a woman. So she leaves her husband at home but anyway, it's it's really good at least at least like I. Think I've watched like an episode or so it's good. So far and You know we don't have those types of opportunities however. We do have the opportunity L. say you're working some manufacturing environment where you're making something that's fairly mundane that things still has a use and purpose, and even if what you're doing doesn't, it doesn't really feel like it has a big impact on on the world. You can still find significance in how you treat each other at work how the the environment that you create around you. Right. That can be part of the meaning that you have in the workplace You know there are repetitive jobs out there. There's also we mentioned the beginning of the episode. There are also kind of disgusting types. Of jobs release types of jobs that carry this social moral or physical taints that make them stigmatized, and this is something I've done a little research myself. These things that we call dirty work. So you could be the the people who work in sewage. The people who are funeral directors and morticians. people who you know I've done research, for example, on slaughterhouse workers on people who work in animal shelters who have to perform euthanasia on animals on a regular basis, right? These are types of work that people like Oh S. so that that's tough right? How how do you do that and? Interestingly, you can shift your mindset and that's what a lot of these people do who are still thriving in those roles they shift their mindset for it. So instead of thinking about the fact that I have to, you know kill a lot of puppies that's horrible right and it's very tough to deal with not trying to minimize that at all But a lot of the people who do that say you know what I'm GonNa also spend a lot of time on educating the public on neuter and spay programs for animals right and that because I want to help make a difference and I want to reframe kind of. My work. So that I don't have to do this other part as much and also to give just kind of this idea of significant. So there are ways to deal with this. You could also as an employ- do what's called crafting. This'll be fun episode we can do at some point to this is where you know everybody does is I think a little bit where you take your job which you're told to do, and then over time he's kind of it to fit those things that you really like to do the things that you're good at and you can do this you know in your organization oftentimes. And it can be a helpful thing for you. Yeah, and society needs to flip on this stuff. So Yeah. This guy's a you know port a potty technician or sanitary you know but you wait till nobody has plumbing and there's Feces outside of every home like there was in middle age and then everybody's like, oh my gosh you'd have parades for these guys. They're the real men of genius right? You know real the lane of genie is. You are absolutely right and I'm so glad you said that Chris because we saw some of this at teachers yet teachers people who are working all these. Now Essential Services a lot of these things had to get kind of delineated as many countries went through lockdown periods You know as Kovic started to take hold and then it's like who's essential now people right I mean. Jack Wagons. You know. There's a disease going around and you still want chicken well, I gotTA show up to work while you're getting PP or whatever you know. So this, this whole idea of significance, a lot of its mental framing rights, how do we frame what we do now we always talk about implications for people, leaders and Orbs make sure your frame framing stuff in A. Good way if you can't frame it a good way I think you need to do some evaluation about what are you doing on this planet type stuff but you've gotta frame what's going on so like teachers were like, yeah. Well, let's just get him for the cheapest price. Yeah. Because that's what you want. You want the bargain basement value teacher for your kid. You know. Meanwhile it's like. Well, I'm just GonNa live in an elite neighborhood and got to the. By their way into Harvard, because they play oboe and some a century export that only exists to get non-performers the Ivy. League, you know that kind of thing. No, we got. That's a corrupt way of thinking you guys got re frame and the other thing, and we did an episode on this is finding an identity outside of work having a portfolio approach allows you to make those contacts shifts a little easier. That's right. That's right. So the the next one that we just want to mention his autonomy. So to some degree, people do like to have some autonomy in their work giving them some say over how they get things done. So as a manager, you can present people with a a problem or situation that these get dealt with and give people some autonomy in terms of how they approach it. We'd like to be seen and we like to see ourselves as. People with brains, right? Not just kind of semi autonomous robots and then the last piece is feedback and this can we often think of feedback as you know managers telling people how they do and that that could be part of this but we're really talking about his feedback. So for example, and this resonated with you a little bit. Chris, you know when you do computer programming. You do you write a bunch of code and then you try to run something you know pretty quickly whether or not it works. when I do this with statistical analyses, I'll put some stuff together hit run, and if it works then I know right away and that's a piece of task feedback. Reckon know immediately kind of how I'm doing people like to see how they're doing in their work and with knowledge work I think this is probably does come a little bit more from other people telling you how you're doing but it's an important piece of this job characteristics model. Yeah. We navigate life like a submarine, right? We're just going around and if we're SMART, we're sending out so Narping Ping's how am I doing in this world? Are My behaviors, matching the social context by which I find myself in. I'm driving a you know am I too close to the lines? Is that car coming over here? You know being and we're waiting for the feedback, which is at Pong, to let you know your your depth range distance, all that kind of stuff. So if you're a manager or a leader an organization, you know we talk about a feedback culture we talk about how to do performance reviews. We all that kind of stuff a collaborative sport on feedback. Hey, I'm performing these tasks I would like to have some feedback. On how I'm doing because I don't WanNa be Jackwagon and bring the team down. Right you know, hey, why is it my manager giving me feedback these kinds of things, managers, guys, I gotta give you feedback because I wanNA create a high performance team and in the spirit of US wanting to be on the coolest team in this org we're going to give each other feedback and that's just going to be the norms around here how we do things around here these kinds of things when you get no feedback. All right. Then go head up this division of this large organization we'll check in with you and five years. While some people will be like, awesome. I got Greenfield I'm going to do this and you know I think about the biblical parable about the planning your talents and the ground you know some maybe if they had had a better feedback culture long the way with those talents, it wouldn't have been so derailed you know but one of them like really built an. Empire and said, look at all this I did right. Then some of them were if you don't want to risk it to make a biblical parable in your organization yet gotTa have some feedback. Now, if you're not getting that as an individual, ask for your manager, read about it learn how to do it well, if your organizations not equipping you as a manager to. Do it well and cal get feedback on how you do feedback. Well, that's a good suggestion for them and Org. You've gotTA curate feedback when there because when everybody has good feedback, not only can they do the kind of desired behaviors and stuff looking? It improves their emotional context and motivation, which is what this whole thing like tasks you know if you have a job design, good tasks in the way that it's designed creates positive psychological states which yield excellent outcomes in society at large and in your org. Wonderful. GonNa set a better myself. So today on the Indigo podcast, we talked about designing work that doesn't stink. We talked about what job satisfaction is why it matters some different facets of job satisfaction, those five different components, and then we talked about the job characteristics model and how managers can make work more satisfying and motivating using those ideas. Thanks for listening to the INDIGO, podcast if you like this. Please consider helping us by rating us on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen telling your friends about US having us on your podcast or mentioning us on social media. Our website is www dot indigo podcast dot com. Where you can access more information about us and miss episode. Thanks again, and we look forward to talking with you again soon.

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UBS's Harford: We're In 4th Inning of Consolidation

P&L With Pimm Fox and Lisa Abramowicz

29:00 min | 1 year ago

UBS's Harford: We're In 4th Inning of Consolidation

"This portion of pianolas brought to you by pimco active fixed income solutions that aim to give investors and which all investments, contain risk and may lose value. Investing in the bond market is subject to risks consult your investment professional prior to making an investment decision. Welcome to the Bloomberg PNL podcast. I'm Paul Sweeney along with my co-host these Abramowicz. Each day, we bring you the most noteworthy and useful interviews for you and your money, whether at the grocery store or the trading floor. Find a Bloomberg penal podcast on apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts, as well as Bloomberg dot com. The asset management business certainly facing meaningful headwinds to its business, including the move the passive management and pressure on fees, as it looks for additional areas of growth. They help us get up to speed on. What is going on with the asset management business? We're pleased to welcome SUNY Harford. She is head of investments for UBS asset management. She joins us here live in New York City. Thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. So we know about fee pressures. We know about the move to pass it. What are the big challenges that you're facing right now at UBS? Well, I think they're not unique to UBS. I think the entire industry is you say Paul is going through a massive shift and change in how we deliver value to our clients that transparency that is apparent and delivering that value and the opportunities so fortunately demographics. And some of the, the world tailwinds, if you will, in terms of the number of retry retirees the fact that sixty percent of retirees say that they will have to invest and live on their investment. Proceeds as. Posed to their portfolios themselves going forward. There's a tremendous amount of money that will need to be managed and opportunities for us, at manages to add value to their clients, headwinds against us, of course, are the transparency, and the passive products that are they are delivering what in the last decade has been really terrific returns. But I would suggest that the volatility that we're seeing now the change in the demand for alternative products. For example, the interest in mortgage, like China, we're passive doesn't do nearly as well where you need some real expertise provide opportunities for those asset managers are going to be prepared to take advantage and bring those skills to their how far along in this consolidation. Are we? That's a great question. I probably in the fourth inning if I use baseball analogy, right? I think we've got a ways to go. But I think who is going to survive in who the winners, ours, not as simple as the assets under management. Okay. So that's my question. What will the asset management industry looked like say ten years from now for in the fourth inning investment firms consolidating, I think those that change to go with the market and can affect real change in their technology and their use of data overstated statement. But it's still a true one. I think we'll survive, but those that really don't think they need to change, and they can stick with the status quo might not be here. I don't think it's as simple as saying a trillion dollars assets under management, is that scale ability in that level that you need to be at. I think you can have a boutique firm at focusing on alternatives or focuses on the liquid products that so many are demanding right now. I think if you can deliver solutions multi-asset where you can pull out beta do that very cost effectively for a client. So they don't go elsewhere for that. Then add an active over layer derivative overlays something to specific to their outcome demands, or whether so we should for their problem happens to be those are going to survive. But that's very, very different than with the traditional asset manager is doing today. So what is in your mind what the traditional asset manager is doing today? Presuming that their money can come in and say that they don't have to be competitive on fees that they don't have to do anything different than what a passive can do for them. I think is problematic. Because at some point when the fees are as high as they have been historically, if you can get close to that you don't have to worry just about outperformance. You're not just trying to beat the passive index. You've got to do more than that to make sure that you're getting your fee and you're earning your fee, if you will, and I think, the, the onslaught of technology, where so many individual investors even institutional investors can do a lot of his stuff on their computer and they can play with ATF's and they can play with PASOK products to build portfolios themselves. There's a lot of intelligence if you will, to these folks, now you have to do something different, and it has to be the unique brainpower AB of your investment teams to deliver something they can't do on their own, just to stick with some of the things that have been in the news recently talk about some of the big tech companies that have come under. A scrutiny both by regulators individuals worried about privacy concerns as head of investments, overseeing six hundred and thirty four billion dollars. Have you personally, pressured anyone or would you change allocations the result of some of these regulatory issues? I have not. I, I have a really good team and I'm going to let them allocate as they see fit. But I will suggest there's a short term view on tech, which would be around things like the regulation and whatnot. And then there's a long-term view technology is where the world is going, everything that isn't tech driven is going to be I have three children, the heading into college. I hope they all study computer science, and math and programming. Glad my son played well at Minecraft, right? We need to be focused on tech so that the long-term play is to be to be into that sector into it big, but you have to pick and choose. And I think there's timing, and that is one of the, the dynamic nature of what you do. An active management is figuring out how to play Google. No one would have seen that coming necessarily long-term. Would you be a Google? Oh buyer cushy would. But should you be coming in and out based on the things that are hitting at as an industry? In the meantime, absolutely SUNY Horford. I wish made an hour with you. Thank you so much for being or having great to talk to your guys SUNY. Hartford is head of investments at UBS asset management, overseeing six hundred and thirty four billion dollars talking about some of the massive changes underway in the investment management industry. We are broadcasting live from the Bloomberg invest New York conference at the company's headquarters here at seven thirty one, Lexington a big question, hanging over all of the attendees here is, what is going on with trade. Why are we seeing such tensions rising at this point and escalating at this moment in time? I am so pleased to welcome somebody who worked with the World Bank for many years. Somebody who worked at J P Morgan in founded her own firm, we're talking about us fanatic, I best loss, and she is founder and chief executive officer of Rock Creek group. Joining us here Asana. It's really interesting to me that these trade tensions are ramping up now why I think it's very interesting what you said, just historically I was teaching international trade a longtime ago talks read, many, many years ago. And I was still a student and the theory of trade was about comparative advantage that all sell goods to each other. On comparative advantage and the world will be a better place where we are in a very different place today. And I think what has been really interesting is how in the last twenty years, China has basically been incredibly smart in taking advantage of trade laws to grow its economy and its trade with the rest of the world now where we are today is a world where China has a lot of unit lateral advantages one way, and therefore, I think we look at the US right now, a lot of the presses about the US, China trade war. But if you look at it that same sort of quiet wars going on in Europe. It's going on in emerging markets where really the same issues are in existence. And so it's the one topic that seems to be unifying the world against China. What do you think China is really looking for, as they sit down with the United States are not sit down? We're at right now in terms of. Trade. What do you think is realistic from China's perspective that they want to get from the us, I think China would in an ideal world do things the way they have been doing for a long time, which is make the right sounds make the right noises implied that they're going to agree? But continue with the way they have always done things, which is their way, and it doesn't appear that, that's that is that can be the status quo any longer. I think they tried that in the last meeting, and that did not work. I think also trade seems to be covering also intellectual property rights, which is sort of a huge topic of this league for the US and, but it's kinda subsumed when we talk about trade, I think a lot of the discussions that are going on between the leaders in, in China and the US is about that topic as well. So your background is fascinating because eve is central bankers and Ford. Ministers invested assets on behalf of the World Bank. And I'm wondering if there's an irony baked in to these trade tensions. The more they heat up the more likely it is that central banks will cut rates and that'll be great for emerging markets. It'll be great for riskier assets on a longer period of time. What do you say to that argument? I think we are now at the point in the in the US economy where it might be too early to, to start cutting rates given where we are with employment and given where we are with the rest of our economic growth, recession is the possibility. We're starting to slow down. But as we heard also this morning from governor Powell he's being very careful. His watching the same thing. Everybody else is watching, and t- did not I at least I didn't hear him commit one way or another. He was very careful in what he said. I think a lot of what the market is thinking is the two rate cuts in the US are baked team. And it seems to a lot of people there is sort of theory being floated out there. Why are we having discussions about trait? And having the tweets on Mexico having having the trade war with Europe, going on, at the same time as with, with China, and would that be something that the president might be trying to get interest rates down a little faster because since the fed is an independent decision maker, but would lower rates. If the fed does cut rate will that be supportive of equities at this point in the credit cycle, it could individually very short run. But it's I think if you're looking at why, why if you are a presidential candidate who would want rates to be lower is that obviously, it will impact equity market. But also, it's a very big positive marks for other things in industry and people who are hiring. So it helps. Hiring policies it helps the broader investment income by companies. And of course, equity markets, which are all interconnected one on one with the other. So is there any call here? I know you're for your new from Rock Creek group has an interest in emerging markets. Given all the trade uncertainty is too risky to kind of go to emerging markets. These days, I think market still are among the best places for value. And for investing the reason for that is that two things. One is growth is fastest in emerging markets right now. Whether we're looking at financial sector, energy sector technology at cetera. And a lot of the things that are holding us back here. Whether it's our infrastructure, whether it's our banking system, whether it's our payments systems that are very rigid and very old and very underdeveloped, wouldn't you go to emerging markets. They're setting all these things up there, not just building roads. The also setting up payments systems, so if they're banks can be leapfrog. And jump ahead. They will be very interesting. There are actually very interesting places to invest, whether it is an education company in India, serving the rural poor, by the way and making twenty percent returns. Right. So I think what you will see in emerging markets is a move away from just sort of a floor of assets into, and much more. Looking for really good local companies that have potential for growth, outstanding of sauna brushless, thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate your taking the time here. Santus founder and chief executive officer of Rock Creek group. Joining us here live at Bloomberg. And today's volatile markets investors. Need resilient portfolios to help handle the pressure through decades of expansions, and recessions and changing interest rates, clients, have turn to pimco to help them stay on course? No matter what course markets. Take pimco active fixed income solutions that aim to give investors an edge all investments, contain risk and may lose value. Investing in Abon market is subject to risks consult, your investment, professional prior to making an investment decision. Earlier today. Fed chair Jerome Powell spoke and traders heard what they wanted to hear? He said that he remained open to anything that was necessary to support the economy, people took that as either a rate cut, or holding steady, basically markets had a little blip, and then went back to where they were before here, purse through all of the fedspeak we've been hearing, and what that means for federate cuts. Crisslow crew chief economist for eft financial joining us from New York, Chris, you have a almost three decades of experience watching markets and listening to fed officials. What do you take from fed chair, Jerome Powell st-, comments today that they remain open that they're watching that they're paying attention that? They're listening to markets up. But ultimately, the economic data is what's going to drive their decisions. Yeah. I think that nails. It really most important thing is that the door at least is open to a discussion. I think the feds. Got into a funny place in the last couple of years, where they feel constrained in what they can do in these meetings based on their own commentary, which, you know, establishes expectations for the meeting in advance. We're not expecting a rate cut in June, because no one other than Jim Bullard is talking about the possibility. But you know if you look at the yield curve, they're way behind the curve, like I've never seen in thirty years. I've been doing this behind the curve, which means if they don't cut it this meeting. They'll have to cut it one of the next couple of meetings. And in the meantime, we heard from Jim from Charles Evans this morning. He's the Chicago fed president told CNBC I just don't see what the market sees. And, you know, I think that pretty well sums it up. Oh, I'm sorry. But it's really interesting because this is another instance where you can hear what you wanna hear because Charles Evan Charlie Evans. He came out and he said, we're not saying with the market seeing, but the market, maybe signaling something important to us. So we're paying attention. I mean again, you can take what you want to take from all of these comments. Exactly. Right. But at the same time. How can they not see it? You know one and a half percent inflation here. Inflation falling and China falling through Asia falling in Europe. Australia, cutting rates this morning because of fallout from the China slow down the global P M I, according to Bloomberg this morning. Fell below fifty for the first time in years. You know, there is a hard slowdown partly because of, you know, the trade fight that's been ongoing for a couple of years. It's very unlikely we're going to get a resolution that the G twenty and the fed has sort of raised the bar, right. Low inflation is low longer enough reason to cut rates. Mary Daly, San Francisco, fed president suggesting yesterday the bar is preventing recession, and she doesn't see a recession yet. So no need to cut I so. I wonder of this the two percent inflation target. Right. So I mean so one of the criticisms of this fed is that it has been behold into the markets are being led by the markets. You think that's a fair criticism. No, I think what what's going on? Is there behind the markets? So, for example, when Evans said, hey, you know, consumers are still in great shape. We had real income growth X transfers in the first quarter of point one percent at an annual rate we had the weakest consumption since twenty sixteen April retail sales for negative. What's great about that? I think unfortunately, they're just not really paying attention, and as a result, they're not being led by the market so much as the market beating over the head until they pay attention to the data. So Chris, you know, you've been an incredibly accurate forecast or of where interest rates are going to go. And right now we're looking at the market pricing in eighty eight percent chance at the Federal Reserve will cut by their September. Eighteenth meeting, look right at a two year yield at one point nine one percent. Where do you see that two year olds going by year end? Well, you know what's, what's really interesting is the move today when it Powell opened the door as you said. Led to a discussion of the possibility of maybe thinking. Right. And, and we see the two year yield is eight basis points higher. Today now that that's partly reflecting, you know, a four hundred twenty five point rise in the Dow, but both of those together, along with the move that you see in oil, and gold is the market saying, okay at least they're thinking about it. That means recession risk is a little bit lower. I think if they do actually cut, then what we'll see is if market interest rates will start to rice, a probably have to cut fifty two affectively move, move the market in a significant way. But I think fifty basis points this year now is, is a pretty reasonable expectation. Incredible. They'll cut rates which will lead to higher rates that that's right. Think about it. The refusal to cut is why rates are false rates. So, So Chris, I mean they've been talking about that the low inflation that you mentioned earlier, the fed is insisting that it's not real that it's transitory. What do you think forms? The basis of that argument. Well, I think it's actually on the face of it. It's kind of reasonable, what they do is they divide up all the thousands of components that go into the price measure into cyclical, and a cyclical things the price declines, this year are mostly a cyclical. The problem with the logic is falls apart, if you look back, we've got seven years now with only one month at two percent. Everything else is below. And last year, the cyclical components fell while the a cyclical components rose. The average is running at about one seventy five. The target is supposed to be symmetrical at too. So I, I understand where Powell is coming from, but I think it, it it's kind of a short sided argument right crisslow. Thank you so much for joining us, Chris chief economist for financial based in Europe. Joining us on the phone. Yesterday. The NASDAQ in particular was tumbling, and it wasn't because of trade concerns. It was because US regulators were said to be setting their sights on big tech for possible antitrust lawsuits. Joining us now to discuss what those could potentially look like is professor, Chris sakers. He is the professor at Cleveland state university focusing on the law professors sater's, thank you so much for joining us. You know, given your experience, what would a potential antitrust suit against Google or Facebook look like yeah. Yeah. Hi. Thank you. So let me just say, first of all, I think everything is so hard to predict in this news that come out over the weekend, you know, I've been watching this law for a long time, and it used to feel like the agencies were at least a little bit predictable after the last couple of years with the Trump administration. I, I have found the agency's pre- pretty inscrutable pretty hard to say exactly what they're going to do or where they're heading on these cases. Let's say they do bring an antitrust case. I mean, I presume we're looking at what in, in USA antitrust law, we call monopolization case, meaning the government would sue Facebook, or Google or another platform claim that through unilateral conduct just through its own deliberate conduct to exclude other competitors. It's gotten a monopoly position. You know, the no so far as I'm aware, nobody knows exactly what the government's theory. Against say Google would be, but everybody's presuming it's the, the same theory that the FTC once looked at with respectable that the European Commission looked at and actually found found violation on in that is that Google. Tweaks its search results to disadvantage its own competitors. So professing. So I think that's what it's going to look like I don't think anybody could really say right now, whether a lawsuit like that could win. But probably most people agree that it's somewhat unorthodox. It'd be a pretty pretty tough row to hoe. So professor, one of the issues that I know investors are asking is just one of timing. It seems historically, the US regulars taken a very light touch to US technology. Whereas, maybe some of the European counterparts have been more recive. Why do you think we're getting so many calls from so many different areas within the US to take a look at somebody's big tech companies? Yeah. It I mean, again, it's, it's kind of a mystery. To me. I don't know what's going on. I humbly believe that there may be a bit of an overreaction to news over the weekend. You know, the government itself has not said that it's investigating anybody, that it's even begun an investigation, and I, I'm just not sure what's going to happen. But there's, there's no obvious reason that it should be these suits. Now, particularly given that this administration really hasn't bought much antitrust enforcement against anybody else. So professor Sager is you've testified extensively about any trust cases in front of congress in different regulatory authorities. What would you recommend? I mean, do you think there is a legitimate antitrust case that could be made a particular against Facebook, or Google looking at Facebook shares today down in additional one point seven percent after a seven and a half percent? Plunge yesterday. Yeah. Excellent questions. I personally. I, I mean, the real answer to your question, I think depends so much on what the evidence actually shows, you know, it's, it's easy for all of us to look at a news reports. And to, you know, judge these companies on what we think we know from reading the papers, but a case against these companies is going to depend so much on what's found in the details. So I, I just don't know if, if these lawsuits should win or not, I personally applaud the government if, if it really is serious about doing this, which I think is still an open question. But assuming the government is, is serious, I applaud them for trying to bring life back to our monopolization law, our law against unilateral conduct, which is almost completely unused in American law. I think that if I had a criticism of the agencies it would just be that if they're serious about enforcing. Chinatrust law is there are a lot of targets out there that would have been easier cases and the government government didn't take them again. I think the, the Google search theory is going be a tough row to ho any kind of claim against Facebook on US antitrust laws probably going to be fairly challenging. So I, I applaud them and I hope they go for it. I hope they find good stuff at the very least they ought to be investigating these companies. And if they find something they should sue. I'm not exactly sure why they picked these companies now so professor cigarettes, one in interesting things that I noticed was that it seems to be the department of Justice in a Federal Trade Commissioner kind of giving up big tech you take this company. I'll take that company to look at how common is that? So it's, it's I mean. You know, deciding who's going to do what is very common and it's it's kind of necessary. But it comes up most often in the so-called merger review process for, for technical reasons, it's a little unusual to see this negotiation where there slicing up a whole bunch of different companies that they're not even investigating yet, or apparently aren't so, nobody knows exactly what's going on there. My, my personal guess. Is that the news that's been leaking? And again, I think it may be a little bit overblown, actually really just has to do with with this initial turf. Turf division negotiation over over who's gonna wear the badge in that really may be all that's happening here. It may have been necessary for the agencies to do this, because they happen to have been getting a lot of complaints. So. Professor. It's interesting to me because on one hand it's gonna take a long time for these regulators to actually push out any anti-trust cases on the other, we did see out of apple. They already are making some changes to their itunes platform and saying that they're going to do other privacy measures take other privacy measures in order to sort of get head of these how much will this shift business just in general because of the threat of regulatory action? Could be serious. I mean you know, Apple's move. I mean, it sounds like apple may have changed Instagram or I, I tuned mainly just because that businesses kind of petering out. I mean music is going to streaming video. There have been a lot of complaints about I tunes over the years. But, but who knows. I mean, I think that your suggestion is good, and correct one that these companies are probably being pretty careful they, and they will be more careful perhaps now that there apparently is serious government interest in what that will mean. I think is that they're going to talk to anti-trust lawyers kind of a lot like whenever they're doing significant new business policy changes. Introducing new products or changing the way that their products interact with other people's products that sort of thing, anything that could be the basis of claim of exclusion, probably they're going. To get an innocuous lawyer to look at it. So, you know, more caution is, is likely. And I personally think that seems great crusaders thank you so much Chris's, James a Thomas professor of law at Cleveland state university lovely Cleveland Ohio, thank you so much for being with thanks for listening to the Bloomberg PNL podcast. You can subscribe and listen to interviews at apple podcasts, or whatever podcast platform, you prefer on Paul Sweeney. I'm on Twitter at PT Sweeney and Lisa Abramowicz. I'm on Twitter at Lisa Abramowicz, one before the podcast you can always catch us worldwide on Bloomberg radio. This portion of pianolas brought to you by pimco active fixed income solutions that aim to give investor's edge all investments, contain risk and may lose value. Investing in the bond market is subject to risks consult your investment professional prior to making an investment decision.

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College Basketball Betting Tips with Greg Peterson - February 28, 2020

Sports Gambling Radio - By BangTheBook

30:08 min | 8 months ago

College Basketball Betting Tips with Greg Peterson - February 28, 2020

"Overpaying the Book Dot Com Two Thousand. Twenty guide is available for Download. You can get that in. Pdf form or click around the website. Go to the individual articles. I do have an MLB win. Total primer landing page that has links to all of that preseason content all thirty win totals division pennant and a world series futures and of course the player futures as well with the CY youngs in both leagues. Mvp in both leagues and of course the Homerun King prop one of my favorite articles to write about not just baseball over there. We've got daily. Nhl Daily College Basketball Daily NBA. Weekly Soccer Tennis Nascar. You name it. We got it over abandoned book dotcom. Finally as you know this end every district of Bengal Book Radio Percent By our friends over at D. SL sportsbook bTV and the number two hundred. Is that Promo Code. One hundred percent deposit match sportsbook one hundred percent deposit match bonus for live casino at the SL. It's only a game until you bet. One guest one segment to wrap up this week on the show that is with Greg Peterson of the hoop with. Who's podcast and Visa and Greg? How's it going today man? I'm doing great. How about you my friend doing very well buddy appreciate your time as always here. Sir. What we're GONNA do here on this segment today with Greg. We're going to talk about some games for Friday night. Talk about a bunch of games for Saturday. Then we'll save the conference tournament discussion for the end of the show because those start up here on Tuesday thirteen conference tournaments beginning next week. Nineteen the following week. So we're getting down to college basketball postseason here and I guess I'll ask you a general question about that first Greg with the postseason coming with different motivational spots for these teams. Are you noticing any changes in how these lines are moving out there in the market? Not really it's London situations in which the numbers are the numbers. Maybe you're going to find an extra half point on senior night or anything like that. But it's one of these things where there's just really not a lot with regards to look at it spots or things like that. These are eighteen to twenty two year old kids and wadden. Kids are jockeying for position. And there's always two sides to it while one team might be looking at. Who says that? The other team isn't as well. Especially if you have a conference at which every team is going to be playing in their conference tournament aren't so we take a look at some games here for tonight. I believe there's only twelve games on the card for this evening. So pretty light in anticipation of another big Saturday card. Obviously we start in the Horizon League here with game. Eight fifty three eight fifty four right state on the road at Northern Kentucky. A lot of people probably going to be surprised to see Northern Kentucky. The three and a half point favorite given that Wright state won by thirty two in the first meeting. I if this is which we're going to see Northern Kentucky obviously come out a little bit better but with that said I still look at Wright state just because we're going to have the event Jello it's been able to give this team fifteen points nine and a half rebounds per game so I really do like what he's bringing to the table that regard and with Northern Kentucky obviously they did not have ties Walton in that first matchup as there's out they wound up getting pounded ninety five to sixty three but with that said this is A. I think it's going to be a little bit lower scoring because with Walton on the full northern Kentucky over the last three games Jordan eightieth in the country with the guards who pace of play right state as a team has gone to at least seventy points at all but one other game so far this year but they've been doing this job on defense as well they have allowed more than seventy points twice in their last five games of one. Those Games was a game which loved seventy four it overtime to Cleveland State. So they hold up at the point of deck there. I think this might be a little bit slower game that a Lotta people anticipate but I think in the end northern Kentucky with having guys like Cold Gentry Bill Ampler and company going to be able to pull this out and this is one of those situations to Wright State and Northern Kentucky cannot move. They're locked into the one in two spots in the horizon. League right state has already won this conference so people are going to say well. The raiders. Don't have anything to play for. And then go ahead and bet northern Kentucky but the fact of the matter is that right doesn't play again until March dice because they get a double by into the semi-finals in that Horizon League tournament. These teams don't WanNA develop bad habits in this last game if they're not going to play for more than a week so definitely something for people to keep in. Mind WITH. Regards the formats for the conference tournaments. Don't just assume that teams are a male these last regular season games it. I do agree with you. And this big for them being able to build up some positive momentum in general. There's a lot at play here because like you said they're not going to be playing for quite awhile at least ten days so I think that this is what you want to be going into a break out a little bit of a high note. I feel like you sort of see it in baseball as well with baseball. Sometimes these teams that they wrap up their division. Or what? Have you a little bit early? There in that layoff playoff. I do think that this is going to be just one of these spots in which both these are going to be playing their hardest and I do think that it's going to result of a little bit more of a Sloan gravy game which every possession is key are under the sun belt here for one other game on Friday night between Texas state and UT ARLINGTON TEXAS. State's been playing very very well here. They're kind of an unlucky team early on and sunbelt play they lost some really close games their fortunes of kind of flipped a little bit. They've been maybe over the last four or five weeks the best team in the Sun Belt Conference but they are catching appoint tonight at ut Arlington. I don't know why we've got. Ut Arlington favored by the way. It seems like they've always been overrated in the market. David Zora has not been as normal self. He has scored thirteen points or fear in each other teams last three games. This guy from three point range shooting over forty percent now. He's shooting more like thirty three percent and for Texas State Nigel Pearson Guy that puts in their nineteen and a half points game. This is Texas eight team that they can go off for one hundred. Thirty real specialties defects with regards offensive efficiency. Which is the point that you give up on a per possession basis when the best teams out there in the belt is small has versatility does a good job of you know. Get some seals. You do like the way that Marlin Davis has been given out right around three and a half since a one point. Four turnovers per game Scott. A lot of veteran experience because you actually wanted missing the two thousand eighteen one thousand nine hundred thousand new danger. He's come back. He's been very solid so I do what he's able to do for this. Bond chant is buying which I'm going to be taking a look at Texas safe despite the fact that they're on the road just because they're so well rounded and that defense does drbble so it's a major conference games here for Saturday. Then we'll get into some of the smaller conference games. The ones that I definitely have my focus on here for Saturday but we start with the Penn state and Iowa match up. Maybe the best game on the board. According to some people I think there are other games. That are better than this one but obviously an interesting game last time out for Penn State. Now they're on the road at ISLA obviously recording this Friday morning we don't have numbers for these Games. But were you sort of expect this one to come out? And how do you break this down? Which we Penn State and Iowa. I think this is going to be a line. And what you're seeing Iowa probably Dick's ish point favorite advice would be seeing that I do. Think that Iowa in a wrench right because keep in mind. These teams played. That was a game at the And it was a game which you saw Iowa play close but no cigar. I think that they're going to be able to get their revenge. Now we've seen Iowa fade time and time again in February but this is not one of these years because Luca Garza is just special twenty three points per game guy should thirty percent three Scott to be up there for the naismith award in my opinion than that good and then we take a look at Penn state with Marion Jones. This is a budget. They've looked a little bit suspect. Recently they got the win against ruckers a couple of days ago but they had an epoch. Second half collapse. Believe me I was on them. I know all about it and it just feels like this squad that with going up against eighteen like Iowa that does have that down a big man their big advantages down low. And without having that it's a real. Kryptonite for them. I don't know if miles dredd is going to be able to pull this off. And this is an Iowa. D Net so many people were having some injury concerns with CJ Frederickson company. But Joey skip has just been a good concert for the same lump Joseph Tucson out there in the backyard. So they're laying less than a touchdown. I'd be looking at the Hawkeyes. We stay in the big ten here. We take a look at that huge game in college. Park between Maryland and Michigan State. I think what's going to be. There's going to be a lot of interesting things about this game to be sure. Obviously Maryland a chance to win the big ten here on Saturday but the thing is going to be interesting to me is. I think there's going to be this really big public sentiment of its effectively March. You know. Obviously it's February twenty ninth. There's going to be this big public sentiment. The Tom Izzo is going to get Michigan. State figured out and maybe he does it here in this game against Maryland. What's your take on the game? I think Michigan State is going eventually get it figured out but I don't know if it's going to be on the road against Maryland now. Maryland obviously had that Banzai charge and the game when these two teams played the first cyber out but with Michigan State. It's been a little bit of a tough situation for the seem. They certainly looked a little bit better when they knocked off the Rasco then a few days ago. They're able to get that win against Iowa but this is a team that they obviously plays so much better at the Breslin center rather than on the road and with Michigan State. You just have not been able to gauge what you're going to get around cash. It's Winston Winston produced a great job for the same rock. Awad was able to stop that game against Iowa. But it's been inconsistent. You've got Dave. You're who does a solid job down low? But Jalen we saw it in that first matchup he was able to do a good job of neutralizing him. And Andy. Cowan was guy that took over that game as well so many people look at Jesuits Winston as one the best guards in all of college. Basketball count is up there as well and Maryland have been a bit lucky in that game gets Minnesota no doubt but this is a jet. They're learning to play at home. They're learning to play on the road. I do feel like they play a little bit up and down to the competition but if its barrel length on lumber probably will be looking at them speaking teams that get it together here late in the regular season. The Virginia Cavaliers are playing while they've ripped off five in a row duke not playing so well we had that blowout loss to NC state not too long ago then of course they lose to wake forest here earlier in the week. This Duke in Virginia Game Takes Pretty interesting context. Now because you know it's not a great year for the ACC conference as we know. What do you think about this one here with Virginia and do? Obviously we've seen as match up in the past couple of years and it's always been a grind. I do think that is going to be opening up a slight favorite in this one. But I do think that Virginia's starting to play their best basketball Mama. Dd Gita gathered in sixty nine. He's able to give the thirteen points. Nine rebounds does a solid job for the sea. He's played in this rivalry before. But I do think that Duke is a bunch that has been playing a little bit better this year than last year. End The big reason why is because rather than coach cages rolling the ball out there and relying upon sheer talent for his team. What he's been able to do is he's been able to do a great job in game. He's used a bunch of different lines. He's got more three point. Shooting guys like Matthew Hurt Caches Stanley. They support really their main lottery. Pick in Vernon Carey so I like the way that this C- Arna Gel I do things. Virginia's GonNa have value if they do wind up opening up an underdog. I think in this matchup and the big key for Virginia as being alive key Clark pretty much match up with trae Jones because Jerry Jones has been very solid for Duke right around seven it per game gay Clark with three after North game a little bit unsightly. But he got to think that this is going to be a battle of opposite. Sukhoi's likes get out run when the top over team at all God basketball as we know Virginia number one team with regards the defensive efficiency. I think that we're going to get a game which it's probably GonNa be a little bit slower Edge Virginia. Well I don't know if anybody gained more or less than the USC trojans big win at home over Arizona now they get Arizona. State here coming to town on Saturday and I think that they're probably in the tournament right now. It's a lot of people seem to say. Maybe they have to win a game out here in Las Vegas in the in the PAC. Twelve tournament just to be safe but obviously would help them tremendously to win this game here Arizona State this weekend. How do you feel like the trojans match up in that game? I imagine pretty well because what you like for. Usc is that regardless of whether or not nuclear Costa which goes. We know that he's been a little bit. Banged up your own. Geico CONGO WANNA come. We'll Andrikos jar out there on the floor combined. Seventeen rebounds from these guys oh come will self right around eight after nine rebounds per game. It's a good job shooting over seventy percent at the free throw line as well so I like what he's able bring to the table. And then you've also got Ethan Anderson a guy that was a little bit injured but he gives us back for five assists per game and then when you take a look at this trip in general you just have to take a look at USC. And the way that they've been able to slow their games out over two thirds of them have been going to the far so. I really do like the way that USC has been able locked down defensively and then with the PAC twelve general as we know it has been very haywire. But I do think that with Arizona. State they're probably GONNA have the best backcourt. Peace out there on the floor and Rodney Martin. But who knows how. They're going to be a balanced back because their loss on Thursday was very debilitating. They were closed for nose. Guard gets a UCLA team. That by the way I believe is out tied for first in the PAC twelve. I did not see that coming. It's absolutely ridiculous but I do think that this is against for USC to get the job done at home. Here's kind of an interesting question. Obviously a talking point for another day and not necessarily betting related. Although I guess you know you could sort of related to that. Is Mick. Cronin the best coach in this conference. Now Oh no I mean. That's Oldman no question. If you're going to compare macron data allman. I don't know because I mean this. This is one of these situations of which date almond time and time again. We've seen his work and how he's been able to get a steam up off the mat. I remember when they WANNA making that final four run. They were without Chris Cruise Shea when they made that run to the. Ncw tournament is here and very nearly knocked off. Virginia Nato Win The PAC twelve tournament just of the NCAA tournament. This van is in my opinion. The Best Coach in college basketball it is hands out eight hallman. So let's go out to the SEC. Here we got Auburn and Kentucky in a very interesting game here in Auburn team that some people feel was very lucky early on in the season against the Kentucky team that people feel is rounding into form and again. I mean whether Rinse repeat with these really good head coaches. As of March approaches John Calipari. Of course got this team playing in a pretty good level right now. Are they going to be able to cover as a home? Favourite HERE AGAINST AUBURN. I think that Kentucky should be able to you take Auburn. This is a team that has been pulling a rabbit out of their time and time again to get covers we saw last week. He gets out to see they were down to that match up and so now six like minded six it winds up getting to the window absolutely insane. You take a look at the Auburn Bunch. Their squad that they do a solid job. Download no question. I do like what is widely has been able to bring to the table for C. But now he has to go up against eight fro Nick Richards Native Sina EJ. Montgomery this is a Kentucky team. That no-doubt has been a little bit banged up. Injuries guys like Nick Richards along with their point. Gershon and exit gives out six assists per game. But I take at some point. This ends for an Auburn team as very poor at the freezer light in a close game. I teach that it's going to be Edge Kentucky because Kentucky when the free throw shooting teams. You're GonNa find a college basketball. And here's what's been big for Kentucky. They are quickly getting some three point shooting from a manual quickly. Sixteen point two points per game shooting forty three percent from three guys been on absolute fire with good by fifty six points in the team's last two games. I like what he's able to do for this Kentucky team. I think he's going to be the x factor because last time they suit teams he was certainly playing some solid basketball for Kentucky. But I think that he's now on another level and with Samir Dowdy and divide McCormick back or proper. I just don't think they compare to the northeast conference here with you. Greg where Merrimack wins the regular season. But they're ineligible for the conference tournament so they won't be able to play in that which begins here next week. Robert Morris and say Francis are eligible for the conference tournament and they're also eligible for the number one seed here. And that's what this game on. Saturday could determine their in that conference. We'll see if tiebreakers come into play. But for instance beat Robert Morris by fifteen in the first game. What do you think happens here? In the second same Francis the Pennsylvania's been one the best cover teams out there in college basketball so I like what they're bringing to the table there and then when you take a look at Robert more they might have the best true low post player in day Brahma so that is going to be very interesting as you mentioned these are the two teams actually can go to the postseason. It's a crying shame that meramec is going to be ineligible due to the fact that they are coming over from division to all the way up to Division One. I think that this is fine. What you probably should be trusting in the back court. They'll be because you got yourself. Isaiah Blackman along with Keith. Braxton these guys by about thirty four points per game. They're able to do with Robert Morris. Dante Tracy has no doubt been able to do a solid job of able to date the team. But it is one of these situations which you've seen it from Robert Morris or you've seen from Saint Francis Pennsylvania time and again I will go with the tried and true routine has been covering so much more but while that depends on the line that you're getting on this game as well. It's a really big weekend in the Ohio Valley Conference. You're going to three way tie at the top two. In Belmont Austin P. and Murray State and this is a conference where the top two seeds get that all important. Double Bye to the semi-finals so the team that draws the short straw here winds up with the three seed has to play in the quarter-finals and it could very well be one of these two teams as Austin P. takes on Murray State. Pretty good top three here in this conference. But what do you think about this between the governors and the racers on Saturday Murray State? This is a team that has been a part of some big collapses. We remember last week. They wind up blowing a twenty seven point lead in the final twelve minutes against eastern all night. Meanwhile you take a look at the flip side. This is beating teams in Gao. College basketball vagaries wife. Scary Terry Taylor. Averaging about twenty two points eight rebounds per game I love what he's able to table and the big thing with Osophy is just being able to get him. I'm a little bit of support you've got a guy and Carlos Perez who's been able to give the nearly four assists one point three turnovers game. He has been highly official with it now with Murray State. You've got no doubt about the better. Three point shooting guys able really stroke it from three point. Range of Murray state should be opening up a little bit of a favorite because they are going to be at home in this spot and with Murray state despite the fact that they've had some collapses they have been able to do a solid job. Sixty three points of fewer. Give it up in each other like four games but keep in mind. This is going to be a little bit of a wrench Rodwell. Awesome P lies time these teams white. They wound up getting the win. Other home for seventy one to sixty eight would not be surprised if we see this game. Be Pretty much like Murray state minus three minus four. Were they pretty much. Make it a pick em on a neutral court but they award the three to four points per se are at home and I think that the big thing you gotta be taking a look at is just the fact that Murray State is a better three point shooting team when they are at home vs on the road and the fact that this is an awesome team that they travel well but at the same time. It's hurt those threes when you're in a row environment rather that at home as well as I'm looking at the card for Sunday here I just want to ask you real quickly about a game on March first and that's Michigan and Ohio state and you know the the sentiment around Ohio state right now is that they're really rounding into form of very very dominant performance last night in the win over Nebraska. Not a good look for Michigan. Their game against Wisconsin. What do you think happens here in this game? I mean does Ohio State. Just come out too high to play and you may be looking at the Michigan side. This is going to be very interesting spot. Because you've got yourself a big time. That in general has been leaning towards home teams. We have seen it all year long but with regards to this conference in general will we're noticing is that the road teams are starting to win a little bit more. You cited that Wisconsin versus Michigan Game. A couple of days ago boys scouts was able to get the win there. We also mentioned the Penn state versus rutgers game. Rutgers was able win that gave out right but they were able to get a cover and then you take a look at this contest. You've got an Ohio state team that has been rounding in form like you mentioned. Kale wasn't doing a solid job down low for this bunch right around. Fourteen points nine rebounds rain but how about Xavier Simpson the way that he was able to put up thirty five and a loss against Michigan. But I think the key for Michigan is the fact that you know. I've Isaiah livers back in the fold. This Michigan team that they are five and three against the spread with regards to having him in the full four big ten games and two of those losses against the spread wound up coming to all of which was a game in which he was taken out early. I think that Jon task a seven foot. One Gentleman for Michigan should be able to keep this team at bay. I certainly think has the edge be able to win the game but if Michigan is catching something like five plus points. Because we're noticing the home-court advantage in the daytime becoming more and more probably would be looking at it in the spot so when asked about here to wrap up. Today's show is. I feel like I said. Thirteen conferences going to their conference tournaments next week. Nineteen the following link. There are thirty two conferences in college basketball. The first one start on Tuesday here with conferences like the Atlantic Sun Big South the Horizon League the Patriot League so a lot of really small conferences. Starting here on Tuesday but the regular season is one kind of animal conference tournaments in the postseason or another kind of animal is your handicapping. I guess I would say sh- strategy change when we get to conference tournaments now really. It's one of these things where the numbers are the numbers in my opinion. Now you certainly do factor in that teams are going to be showing a little bit more if they're like if you've got a wake forest versus. Clemson game both. These teams are not going to be making the NC Double A. Tournament. They're going to be accurate way like lumberjacks. If they're down by ten with a minute to go that is obviously something that you do. Keep in mind but when it comes to the actual game play is on one of these things where I'm going to be shading team a couple of points just because it is offered tournament. Now you do take account that the fact that these Games are played on neutral courts and some of course there are a little bit more neutral than others like when the ACC tournament is played in Greensboro Lake. And I think it is this year that gives a little bit. Ed should North Carolina. Meanwhile it gives a little bit of a disadvantage your team that while they have to drive a little bit more like Florida state so those are sort of things I look at. But it's not one of these situations where I'm just GonNa go through. And completely scribe by model. Just because you've got now conference tournament play going up. Well the play devil's advocate here. You know all these teams are playing back to backs for the most part. Some of the conferences where the Games are on your Where the Games are at campus sites? They've got traveled days. Built in so. Those aren't necessarily back to backs. But we've seen teams after win. Four Games in four days. Five Games and five days to try and win their conference tournaments. How does that factor into the equation for you know? The Ivy League plays back to backs. And they're used to it. But these other teams and these other conferences are not. So what does that back to back factor media with regards three point shooting teams? That means a little bit more. But also we've seen so many teams that go on that Hercules and run we remember Yukon years ago with Kemba Walker. They wouldn't be certified. They then wind up winning the NC Double A. Tournament and we see it every single year. Where team is able to make a run. These are eighteen to twenty two year. Old Kids are kids at. They don't necessarily get very tired. I think the big thing is gauging a game by game because pretty much everyone of these teams in order to win their conference tournament. At some point they're going to have to do a little bit of a back toback. Most if you're in one of these conferences where you get a double by when just two Games of Eight the NC Double A. Tournament. And they're a little bit space but I do think that the big thing is it wears out some of these teams have jumped shooting rather than these quads that they like to slow game down. They plays grimy defensive style. So I do think that this is as fodder which you have to gauge a team by team. But I don't put overly much emphasis on just because like I said these are kids that they're going to be motivated. No matter spot now I know that you generally play almost exclusively pre flop and what I mean by that. Is You play full games. You don't really do a whole lot of in game betting or second-half types of things in turns we know that if teams have a big lead they may kind of put it in cruise control if they know they have to play the next day. Something like that so do you shy away from big favorites and conference tournaments like let them the exact same way that I do normally during the season. I'm typically a person that I've not Jones in delay a whole bunch of points to begin with during the regular season and my approach says the exact same year because he also want to keep in. Mind that with regards these favorites as well. They're actually going to be shaded down a little bit because an on a neutral court rather than a team being home sites on the road. You don't have that factor in as well so you're getting a little bit more of A. I guess you could call it a true number so it's one of these in which I'm going to be playing these favorites and underdogs the exact same way that I would in the regular season. That doesn't really have a water bearing on myself because what I notice is that while these teams. They also want to make a statement. Especially if they're on the bubble they wanted just completely trounced some of these teams in their conference tournament. Last thing I'll ask you about here is through a market entry standpoint. You know we've talked before you play every side and total in every game more often than not. You've got overnight lines and with the back to back formats here. The conference tournaments. Sometimes the books can be a little bit slow to get some of those numbers up so does does that sort of have any kind of impact on what you're able to do. Sometimes they don't even post up until the morning to be honest with you in a backpack situation because we noticed that what the Ivy Ivy League plays on Friday. You're typically got not gonNA get numbers on those until Saturday morning and it becomes a lie. Why wants to be able to get those numbers because let's face it? They go up early in the morning. I'm talking like sometimes even five o'clock. Am In a lot of these offshore books where they typically go up first and it's all about just being able to get the number that you can fire it on it right away. I know that a lot of people when it comes to like the first five ending the market with regards baseball. They do sort of the exact same thing. And it's one lead spots in which you just have to gauge exactly what you've seen have your power rankings. Ready to go and we see numbers. Start to pop up. If you see something that you like fire because it might not be there in a couple of minutes I guess last thing. I'll ask you hear something that we love to talk about here on this. Show talk about playing conference tournament futures. You're sort of looking at the bracket format because that lends itself very well to things like money right money line rollovers which will talk about Monday or just looking for some values on some of these teams based on the draw do Dabble in the conference tournament futures market at all. I'm a game by game better. I'm someone that I really don't look at this personally. If I were to I would probably be looking at your money by enroll over which we like to call a rolling parlay. That's the best way to be able to play it. Sometimes you can actually get better odds overall and with doing that money line parlay and just doing the rollover while you're able to do is if someone gets hurt or you don't like the match up or anything like that you can walk away from the table with your winnings essentially because we all remember. Auburn W. Tournament But if you had a future ticket on Auburn having the injury that you did last year you probably are going to be going into that final forego. You'd get Virginia like man. I wish I had the option to just walk away right here right now because sumo cake was so baked that Auburn team. So it is when these situations which I personally do not look at any of these features or anything like that if I were to. I would recommend the money line rollover that you just suggested but I'm still going to be just going game by Game Greg Peterson. Who's working and find on twitter at G unit underscore eighty one. Where else can people find your work? Then you also find the podcast hooper with hoops where I break down every single college basketball game every single day on Apple podcast. Google play spotify. Stitcher Antoon obviously like you said generous. Forty one on twitter. I am always on there so it's always great to be on there and it's always great to be joining you. Adam. Thank you very much. Greg really appreciate that once again. Greg Peterson the hooping with hoops. Podcasts you can also catch him on beason and of course on twitter at G unit underscore eighty-one. Greg always a pleasure man. Thank you so much. We'll talk to you again soon. Always very reality thank you.

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Neil Shortland on Decision Making

The Indigo Podcast

1:32:32 hr | 2 weeks ago

Neil Shortland on Decision Making

"Welcome to the Indigo podcast and exploration of human flourishing at work and Beyond. I'm been Barren of indigo anchor and Cleveland State University, and I'm Chris Evert of indigo. Anchor more information, please visit us at www.pfizer.com. All right. So today we're talking with Neil shortland and we're going to focus on decision-making. That's right. It's going to be a great episode. Thanks so much to Prior Indigo podcasts. Just Matt. Crane for recommending Neil. This is going to be fantastic. So what are we going to talk about here today, Chris? All right, so well, we decided to talk about decisions and we're not going to talk about Free Will wage biological lack thereof. That's not going to make a cameo. And so we're going to talk about making hard decisions applications to current events like firefighting way. We're even going to go there with some policing stuff an business and applications for everyday people. Yeah, and just so people know that we actually have Neil on the podcast. Say hi Neil. Hi everybody. How you doing? Thanks for having me guys. Thanks. Thanks Matt for the recommendation. You may they may regret it, but we'll thanks so much. So let me properly introduce Neil cuz he is one cool guy Neil is an assistant professor of criminology and Justice studies and the Director of the center for terrorism and security studies at the University of Massachusetts Lowell Neil has a master's in forensic and investigative psychology and a PhD in cognitive psychology from the University of Liverpool before prior to joining Academia. He was actually a normal person for a while. He worked in a variety of Applied rules alongside the UK police force and UK armed forces his work generally focuses on the intersection of psychology of security and he has a special interest in how people make decisions and conditions of high uncertainty his work on decision-making has incorporated both qualitative and quantitative methods his book conflict how soldiers make impossible decisions was recently published by Oxford University press and he has received funding from both the Army Research Institute and National Science Foundation for his experimental research using his decision making tool Lucifer which stands for at least worst uncertain Choice inventory for emergency responses. Wow. That's very cool. He applies his work on decision-making to issues of training selection job. And post-event Analysis in a range of contexts from covid-19 criminal cases his latest book decisions decisions with Professor Lawrence Allison is under contract with penguin random house and home is how we can overcome fear and procrastination to better seize opportunities in life. Wow. So just a formal welcome Neil shortland to the Indigo podcast. Thank you guys. Thank you. I would have written a shorter buyer if I knew you were reading it. So well, maybe do less awesome stuff next time meal. Yeah so long. I mean I looked at and I'd thought about shortening it but I just couldn't decide what to grab so good. That's freaking cool. Look at that. Awesome thing might like stinks next to this guy took my gosh. So I guess you know one place to start Neil is with a very basic yet big question of what is a decision. And what are your thoughts? Surround that it takes an interesting question actually cuz I'm going to be you kind of even when you have to Define it. It's one of those things that everyone kind of thinks they understand but when you actually drill into it, you know, you can kind of get into this kind of dog wag Meyer if you will of people really trying to unpack what a decision is and I think that the the biggest distinction when we talk about what a decision is is that a lot of people assume that a decision is the process of weighing alternative options and choosing one and often choosing, you know, the best one of the available up of the available options, That's kind of this classic rational approach, but I think the more accurate description of a of a decision in general is that a decision is a commitment to a course of action and I think we'll probably end up unpacking that concept as we go through this but this idea that it can be a commitment to a course of action. It removes the need for there to be multiple options log. I think that that that actually opens up what decisions are and it allows them to be all the more encompassing. I think one of the one of the most interesting stories and is something I experienced but but it was reported by psychologists long before is they would ask people soldiers specifically police officers to talk about decisions and they were turn around and say I've never made a decision and it's like no know if you've if you've done something if you done a course of action making a cup of coffee in the morning turning on the computer that is a decision what people often confuse that with is they've never made choices so many action any choice that results in you doing something that's a decision how you get there? That's the decision making process. Yeah. So, you know, I'm also reminded of one of the best rock power trios Rush In which one of their songs they say if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice you agree with that a hundred percent hundred percent. Well, we'll get to that because you can log Choose the not choose that you cannot use through an attempt to choose one of the ones I always love is it's actually from a it's not a business book. I'm reading a while ago, but it's kind of the the idea was a full frogs sitting on a log and three decide to jump how many frogs are left on the lot when you turn the page and it says four cuz there's a difference between deciding and doing and I think that kind of comes into it as a you know, a decision to be complete has to result in a behavior and that's I think where we talked about some models that kind of try and unpack that process. But yeah, it's a commitment of course of action, but ultimately the the action has to occur or the decision didn't yeah. Yeah, you know you also we were prepping for this episode talk about some things like difficulty buttons and so forth. But what does that have to do with these ideas of commitment of course of action to a course of action being a decision, it's interesting because Yates like this is old study by Yeats. We're basically got a bunch of of under God. Students and he he asked them to Art to describe hard decisions and it comes down to this. There's a I think there's a big kind of there's a really big not argument with the difference of opinion in the field about what makes a decision hard and I think a very very layer assumption is that the consequences of a decision make it hard, right? So the bigger the consequence all the bigger the outcome or the more things on the line the harder the decision I disagree with that and and I think that the evidence for that is in the everyday world people make unbelievably hard decisions all the time and not only that they make decisions with massive implications a massive outcomes. They can make those decisions relatively easily in certain cases. And at the same time the smallest decisions with the least outcomes sometimes can also be difficult. So I think we have to uncouple the idea that a hard decision is a decision with that naturally just has massive Stone. Cuz I think there are people who can make those decisions very very easily and then you get into this kind of this more complex view of kind of what makes decisions hard and I think if you look at kind of the real world and I think we reflect in our own lives, you know, some of the difficulty we call them difficulty buttons, you know kind of uncertainty so not knowing what's going on multiple people being involved. That's another classic one. There's a black one of the the activities we always do in trainings myself and Lawrence Allison who I work a lot with and we we use this kind of hypothetical bomb example, right? So imagine your boss you're staring at a bomb the bomb has two wires blue and red, right and you're told that cutting the red wire turns off the bomb was not a hard choice right red wire. Thought I wish it was I'm sure if she refuses bombs wishes it was like this, but then you add in two different variables, right? So the first one I'm going to say is cutting the blue wire all the red wire diffuses the bomb now, that's made it more uncertain dead. Right. So all we've done there is we've added in our tasks uncertainty. You're not quite sure what the right course of action is the next step you can take is you can basically say cutting the red wire all the blue wire may or may not diffuse the bomb. So now you have tasks uncertainty and outcome uncertainty now that immediately makes it incredibly more complicated and in Credit much much harder and then what you'll do is you can obviously move the bomb to you know it research there was some Neuroscience research we did it when you moved the bomb to different places by a school or in a car park and it it makes it more complicated but when it comes to what makes them difficult what makes decisions difficult, I think it comes down to those two things. What am I meant to do or what? What can I do and what will happen if I do it and if you can't answer those two questions, you are facing a difficult decision and you got to take care, right? Cuz we've all seen people that flippantly and you gotta have some cognitive resource to understand be able to frame it that way. Well, yeah, I agree I think well one of the things We will we can get into later on. It's kind of you know, how people when people navigate decisions. Right? What makes them difficult is usually the kind of the the clashing or the edge lighting kind of values that are important to them. So if you go to a decision and you have no states in the game, you don't care about any of the outcomes right? None of the values that play was going to be a hard decision because you it's almost dead a hard decision because you care so little rather than a hard decision because you care so much so much. So, yeah for a decision to be meaningful and difficult, you have to be juggling consequences and outcomes that actually matter to you as a person and that again is where you get that kind of individual difference, right? Some people can find a decision phenomenally easy. Some people find the same decision phenomenally hard. It's nice out what that decision is creating in them. And and I think from a philosophical standpoint, it's no use to science this but from a philosophical standpoint my belief, is that job Visions of this immensely phenomenological experience because they they are an interaction of everything of the person with the situation and this is what I think like hard decisions to kind of decisions about throughout this. Those are the ones that really make you question everything that you kind of known and everything you bring to the plate and they're these moments that make you question fundamental truth that you home. That is a that's a hard decision right there. So you have to be invested. Yeah. So why don't we talk a little bit about you know, there's a lot of different scientific models and ways that decision making is addressed in the scientific literature and certainly there's a lot of you know different ways in which the the popular literature likes to talk about decision-making but are there any signs of models that you like or that you think are helpful? I mean, so I think the the one thing about decision making the I like in relation to I think a lot of scientific Fields is that we I don't think that one Theory replaces another I don't think that you there is a a all-encompassing model. I don't think we as decision-making theorists are really operating against each other. I think we're operating together. Now, there's been movements in the field. Right and I think these reflect truths about human behavior. So the original idea right everything's rational and we're you know, economic decision-makers and we kind of you know, we weigh probabilities and we can't look at we calculate costs and all this kind of stuff right that was the early move and then and then we know kind of like with the with the move towards them. Well decisions making study naturalistic were Gary Klein's work that you know people in most situations don't do that. We we kind of cognitive misers, you know, we don't have the width to do it or whatever they say, but we do a more stripped-down decision making model right this idea that we we kind of look at a situation we match it to a situation we faced in the past and then we kind of, you know, we draw on experience with dog. We're on an allergies and we we decide that way and that's this this very very cognitive light model of decision-making. I mean realistically that's what we want decisions to be and I know both of you gents have gotten your military experience and that's kind of how you're trained. Right so that you recognize situations you recognize decision. Now, I personally don't think those two things are against each other. I think there are situations where we bought a map out the pros and cons of every course of action buying a house buying a car, you know, buying an item, right? Those are the what we call a multi-attribute decision, right? And then there's the Gary the Gary Klein ones right off the kind of the the recognition Prime routine, you know, see what condition Prime is. I'm sorry. So recognition prompt decision making is the is the theory that basically decisions are made by recognizing a pattern which primes an action, right? So so and an analogy, I would I would use right. It's a terrible analogy as a sports analogy, which is not my forte dead. If I'm if I'm playing golf and I'm one hundred and fifty yards from the green, right? I pull the same Club every single time right? Because I get up there. I recognized the pattern. I don't make a decision. I know what to do a job, right the same thing if your army officer if you're a police officer, if you're a fire officer, you recognize the situation you have a prime locked and loaded response ready off work. Yes apply. So instead of doing multiple courses of action instead of thinking should I do A B C or D. You think right this situation calls for last time? I faced this situation, I would say, how do I do a yes, right. Let's do a so, it's it's a single model right now where I studied decision-making is actually slightly different to that and it's because we're kind of I've always said, you know, like Gary Pine can have 95% of decisions. Gary. Klein can have ninety-nine percent of decisions. I have a little 1% over here, right? These decisions called least worst decisions wage. These situations that we Face where they're novel you have a really faced them before they don't perfectly match your training and you are presented with two courses of action, right? And those you have no idea one which course of action is better because both could be bad both could be good and to you don't really have any experience to help you of this specific situation. So if we take my little area right my little 1% these these high-stakes unique novel least worst decisions. There are I think three theories that we need to I think hold in our minds in order to kind of understand this little area, right and the first is what it's Lipschitz and strapped they basically call it the trime model of decision-making and what they basically said and it links to that definition I gave you earlier, right this this idea that there are the decision is a commitment to a course of action, but the song Means that based on your commitment as in how much you already think, you know, what you're going to do a decision can be experienced very very differently and they basically say there are three different types one is where you should have your basically, you know, what you're going to do because other things are telling you what to do, right, you know that you you know your choice because policy tells you age because all of our social Norm tells you right. So if you're if you're a soldier if you're a police officer and a certain action happens, there is a policy that tells you if this happens you will do a right that is the first kind of decision. You don't actually have to think you just almost defer your decision to the policy to the law to the social norm. And that's how you you you guide your actions. The second is is what equals reassessment which is you you basically come to a decision already knowing what you want to do because you're you're already committed to it in this situation I do this, right? That's its beige. Any recognition Prime, right? So the question is what do I do? The question is I want to do this. Is there any reason I shouldn't write wake up in the morning go to the kettle I want to make a cup of coffee. I do it every single morning. Is there any reason that today? I shouldn't make a cup of coffee, right? That's what you have to almost convince yourself not to make the decision you want to make and then the last thing I said try three different forms, the last kind of decision is the really the fun one is what he calls Choice which is where you have no previous commitment to and there are two options if you so you don't know you don't know if you want to do a or b you're equally attracted or unattracted to both you have no experience to help you and there's no policy to dictate off. Now you're facing a decision because the thing about choice is that in choosing a you sacrifice be in choosing be you sacrifice a that is that is where the psychology comes home. He's not only do you have to convince yourself that you want a do you have to convince yourself that you don't want anything associated with beef? So so the the big meaty one. That's at the heart of most difficult decisions is Choice two options and you have no commitment to either the second theory. I'll try metatheory slightly shorter than the last one. The second theory is one called it's called the safety model and it was designed by Lawrence Allison. Klaudia Vanden Heuvel back in 2012. Now it's it's it's basically a a phase based model of how you make decisions. Right? So so the idea is simply right situational awareness out. What's going on plan formulation. What can I do plan execution? Let's go do it team learning. What did we learn? Right that that's not the Innovation, right? They they basically looked at how people make decisions and bought a model but what the safety model does and then it comes down to your point earlier. Is it identifies the ways in which you can fall off the rails when making a decision now dead. It was around two thousand three and a guy from Anderson wrote a paper called the psychology of doing nothing. And basically he said that with the normal all that studying decisions right how people make decisions. Wish you are really bad thoughts on how people don't make decisions and how people fail to make decisions. And so the safety model kind of tries to explain that and so basically it says you've got situational awareness and then the next thing is planned formulation. Well, if you miss the link you basically get into what they call decision avoidance, which is I know there's a decision. I need to be made I'm just going to avoid it. Okay, you get plan formulation took I'm deciding what to do. If you never get to plan execution, you're in what they call redundant deliberation, which is you can't work out what you want to do. You can't choose between a and b and it's not avoid because you're not hiding from it. You're really working hard to choose and you just can't do it. And then you get to the last one which is you can choose a or b and then you can just not actually do a job. And that's what they call kind of implementation failure now kind of an example of this. I mean, I always give it to my students is a really simple example is Imagine someone's in a relationship. It can be a relationship with an employer. It can be a relationship with a partner right and they start to feel that they're not happy or they start to feel that there are you know, there are our problems things that they're not happy with right they can avoid that they can avoid the decision of what should I do and they can just press it down and and live in their Library resentment and you can actually sit here mad at the world. They can embrace the fact that they need to make a decision and they can spend they can try and work out. What do I do? Do I find another job do I stay in this job? Do I break up with my partner? Do I stay with one partner and they can be deciding that for a week a month a year a decade a Lifetime right? That's that's redundant deliberation. You can just go back and forth. Can change by day you can change by minute can change by our right, but you can also decide you can decide that. I'm unhappy in my job and I want to leave but you can never actually walk into the office and hand in your resignation that is implementation failure. So the safety models Innovation is not that it tells you how people make decisions that isn't really new knowledge there but it shows you there's these three different ways that you can all fail to make a decision and each one is actually a different. It's a different psychological process and it kind of has different elements associated with it. But all of them result in the same thing, which is you never you never make a decision now and the last one and it's not even a theory really it's just more of a concept that I just love to remind people and basically it's this this argument that page there is a kind of an arms race for energy going on in the body and the brain are are cognitive muscle working to make decisions. The more complicated the decision the heart of the brain Work but what that means is that the less blood the brain has all the less nutrients or less like the the harder it's going to or the worse. It's going to be in terms of making decisions off and that's I think that's really important because if you look at everyday decisions, you know, yeah, I like if you look at everyday decisions and people are hungry hot hungover sleep if she lived right that's drawing away energy. But if you look at some of the decisions, you know, I know that you Gentle face, they're the kind of decisions. I study with Soldier, you know, if you look at the fight or flight response by design that moves all of the blood to the big muscles to the arms and the legs the dinosaur Fighters right there because back in evolutionary times you didn't need Advanced complex cognitive process is to find a dinosaur you have to run but what's interesting is that then when we take soldiers or we take police officers or take fire fighters or you know, government officials under stress and we put down In stressful fight-or-flight situations, all of the blood is going to move to the big to the big muscles and then we asked them to make, you know, very very complex cognitive ruminations. We asked the most of them cognitively while at the same point they are in a state where they have the least resources to go with and so I part of all of those combined to me those those three theories they need to come as one because true hard decisions present as a choice. There are the safety tells us what how the many ways people are going to try and avoid it and unless they clear the the the the instant reaction is to try and avoid a difficult decision right off. Right? So if there's a choice in front of us our first thought is how can we avoid it and if we can't avoid it, here's how we get stuck and then the arms race is just as idea that we need to I think sometimes we just need to respect the fact that the body is a is a is a is an organism and we put people in situations where they're not equipped to make unbelievably wage cognitively complex Advanced decisions as an Army study a while ago about they were getting annoyed. Basically that soldiers in operations were getting tunnel vision and not innovating and not adapting and not be in a responsive and adaptive and it's like well, why do you think that is do you think maybe it's the fact that they're sleep deprived hungry and carrying eighty pounds on there, but they put a gun to your head and have you do a painting for me and it needs Mene, I'm racking the slide. I got my glock right here. Let's go you be creative. You numbskull study designer the heck guys. This is the kind of crap God. I gotta do push-ups for a second. I'm so mad. I'm going to tell you can I tell you my favorite study and I don't know if this isn't this is favorite Theory, but I'm just going to I'm going to Pivot me over to favorite song 2001. I don't know if ethically there were allowed to do it then and not now there's a study on the Norwegian military right where they take these sleep-deprived Cadets who are done like a four or five-day exercise and what they do is they sub the bullets in their guns for blanks and then they sub the the cutout people down on the driving range for real people and they basically get right guys. Come on. We're going to go do I like shooting Mission and so they go down there and these guys think they're firing real bullets at fake targets and in truth, they're firing fake bullets at real targets, right? And so they go down there off. The people start moving what I'll ask you this on Chris and then right what percentage of soldiers do you think shot? So fired they fired what they thought was a real Bullet at a moving Target should have been stationary 10% I don't think they I don't know. I wouldn't I wouldn't shoot 60% 660 percent and I'm not I'm not blaming that they they put those things on the edge of the council. They were hallucinating. They weren't really sure well and they had the authority to exactly. Yeah, go ahead and shot the man type thing and there are sleep-deprived right point about the cognitive resources that are being drained in that moment. Right? I'm not surprised right now. So, you know, they should have made him all have kids first and then they're like, you know actually get more sleep in the army that I did is with Iraq, but for this but when we talk about decisions, right, it's always in the extremes right when you look at soldiers, you know, the sleep deprivation. They go through the the load they carry the the nutritional aspects. It's always in the extreme. That but you take that down to a a business level decision and it's like you your decision-making can be really negatively impacted by you having a few hours less sleep, you know, you having, you know not eating properly you making the decisions before lunch versus after lunch and it's just an awareness that decision making and how that process works is dead and physiologically as much as psychologically and one of the things that I feel we see a lot is people assume psychological independence from physiological Independence gave you this doubled Association. It doesn't matter what you're doing in the real world what the situation is your brain should be working almost in a vacuum. And the reason I kind of just like the arms race is a concept is dead. They're they're two combined things, you know there to combine things the same way you'd say, you know, never go take a test for never go take a college test hungover and hungry right or don't get people to go make extreme, Decisions while they're you know, physiologically depleted or at least if they are physiologically depleted appreciate that when you try and understand the decisions that they made and why they're you know, they operate in a certain way so that to me it's just such a a fundamental concept that so often forgotten this idea that the body really dictates our Behavior first. Yeah, that's phenomenal. Hey what one question that I had just thinking about as you were describing this so I'm curious to know what you kind of think about the idea of intuition and you know, the gut feelings. I'm thinking of GERD gigerenzer off work. He wrote a book called gut feelings talking about, you know, the the role of intuition are actually can be helpful in certain circumstances that kind of thing and don't know if that ties it may be that goes directly back to the recognition Prime model or or something else. But what what are your thoughts about the role of intuition and making decisions? Well, I think I think it's a really interesting. I definitely think so in terms of goods work with kind of with the recognition Prime stuff. Yeah, I mean, yep. 2% think that, you know, you can not cognitively process a full situation and yet react and I think that that actually, you know that probably helps with some of these decisions that are you know meant to be a quick, you know, a lot of decision-making is about time, right and a lot of the the high-stakes decision making especially in an operational environment. It's about making decisions quickly quickly and lightly but I would never dismiss intuition in any part of the decision-making process. You know, when we look at choices, right and it's something I think we'll probably I think we can we can touch on later but one of the things we talked about, you know, when you'll making a choice is that you kind of need to prioritize your own values, right? You need to pick right a is super important to me and it is more important than being. I think that sometimes you can't cognitively articulate why that is and that I think is where you get to the same thing of intuition, you know, there's old fmri study where they ask people to, you know, describe their perfect. Love one girl. What are the what are the variables you look for in a partner? And then they showed people all of these pictures or pictures and profiles or whatever it was and then they came out and they said right who was you know, who was the the partner that they you know, you thought you liked the most or whatever it was and the Brain the reaction of the gray the hot one heart one. It was all college-age men. The reaction of the brain was a better indicator of their choice than what they said before and I always think that it didn't is this an example of there's this, you know underneath everything there's often this kind of unconscious processing going on that you're not that really that aware of Gerald and then when you make a decision you afterward you kind of come up with all of the justifications and I think in decisions, you have the exact same thing. I have myself made decisions where I can't are typically articulate to you why I'm so committed to doing it and why I'm going to always do it instead of thing, but however, I'm going to go with it. Now the problem is that that can go both ways dead. Because your intuition can guide you perfectly toward a but at the same point some of these unconscious processes and intuitions, they can make you guide you towards a but you know, a is an edge right? I can give you a I mean one of the examples I would go with is one of the soldiers I interviewed for the book a while ago. He he described to me what he calls the worst decision he's ever made and it was thought they were they were out at this forward operating base constantly receiving fire from basically a group of Taliban soldiers out in the in the kind of a Woodland area basically just constantly off not annoying but constantly is Farhan on the base and it was really getting to him. It was getting to him. It was getting to his troops and one day I think it was a special forces guy came in and was like, right we've got Intel we've got wage can see them with the with the art with the with the some of the intelligence materials. We've got we think we've got their base. What do you want to do? And he was like right hundred percent launch a strike. And so we launched to strike and you know, he said he's watching the whole Mountain be kind of, you know lit up and he gets a call from his commanding officer and his commanding officer higher. What are you doing? And he's like dead-on bombing bombing the Taliban, you know, and we found it. You know, there was this movement I interpreted it. I think it's their base, you know, they're moving late at night missions ago and the commanding officer said do not think for a second that that could be a bunch of men cutting wood and he was like no and he said that whole moment just drained everything out of him realized basically a community of closure all of his intuitions, let him down this path to to commitment to this action and only when someone told him afterwards did he realize you know, that the rebates just just followed this guy intuition of I'm annoyed. I want them, you know, I really want to get these guys and that just led him down this partner and he's he like this isn't my interpretation. He's open about this. He says, you know worst decision I've ever met Aid he told me he almost resigned because of that, you know the in the end they went into the battle damage assessment and it actually was it was the Taliban he actually got but he was so upset in his own process. You know, he told me he he did, you know courses afterwards and just like studied his own personality studied his own decision making all to try and work out how he'd got it. So wrong in this in this one thousand so I don't take intuition out of anything. I think it can be sometimes we we can't explain why we're committed to something at the same time. Sometimes we can follow intuition, you know too far and and we can get to expertise later and not talk about how some of these things we can try and overcome but intuitions that I'm a big believer that we are unconscious processes first and conscious process a second, you know, some of them important elections I ever had as an undergrad were about this idea of the literally the illusion of Consciousness and I Chris was earlier like we're not going into Free Will I would try let's go and take us off. Because I did that, you know, a lot of conscious experience is a confabulation of the brain that we we create, you know, we create conscious control and often we do it after we follow our unconscious impulses and thoughts. I don't think you can take it out of decisions. I think it operates in all of them in choices. It's going to it could it's going to guide us A and B and then, you know, like you're mentioning earlier, you know in in recognition crime and gut instinct is a guide us, you know in certain in certain directions. And normally I think intuition is correct because I think you know, the unconscious processing has much more power than the conscious processing, right but let's start something in on that. All right, so mate selection, right? Let's see he grew up in a bad family and you keep making these bad bad decisions. I had a girlfriend of mine is like, I know this guy's horrible, but I just can't help myself saying those kinds of things. So maybe if you really wanted to commit you'd have to say I'm going to have these people select my spouse from a country that allows arranged marriages and I'm just going to go with it now. If you commit to that kind of process, it's probably not going to feel like man. This is such a sexy marriage that gosh. It's so great everydays hippity skippity, but maybe your heart could come around to it on the office in let's take a look at a policy decision. If we know that we're flooded like the day after nine-eleven Bush wants to be it's time to make some glass. He caught probably could have turned some square footage into glass overseas in that moment and the country would have been with them. But instead we went through several years here. Like why did it take us so long to get to Iraq man planning a whole country Invasion takes a mission mission planning right away. But if we know but instead we did get massive new bureaucracy with all the homeland security stuff that got set up. So, you know, one of the ways we could do a process to prevent, you know deal with our fact that our mind get hijacked as we have to say only a supermajority can do anything after a nine-eleven event and we give ourselves a year to cool down and then we're deciding in a different space right dead. Why I think one of the points about that creates, I really like is that I think a lot of I think a lot of the things we do in life are designed to stop us to avoid the needs to make decisions right now. Okay. So going back to try model tri-modal choice is really the tough one and we don't want them off. I don't want to spend all of my day having to make choices because they're tiring and they're tough and I have to convince myself and it makes me work hard and I don't have any guidance. I don't want choices. I want an easy life. I want to live where I either know what I'm going to do or someone's telling you what I want to do and literally we design all of our systems to avoid us from having to make choices. The reason we train, you know people with rehearsal Mission rehearsal, right is like Mike Matthews calls it a library of experiences. So you never faced a situation. You haven't already faith. Because if you've already faced it, you know what to do. Why do we feel organizations military and business organizations with policy? So people don't have to make choices because it's a policy choice you what you want to do. And I think there's a there's a there's a there's a psychological benefit of not making choices. And again, where do you want to go with that? You want to go to Milgram with it? You want to go see anything else with it, but it's deferring autonomy. I didn't decide the policy decided. I didn't decide I was trained to do this and you're deferring you know your responsibility because when you make a choice, you chose a you chose d right that was you and we I think it's humans. We we don't really like that in a little bit so we know like in the Army we make an s p p right never unit that rolls out infantry has a different sop and so like we make those decisions clutch decisions and those narrow, you know, you're emotionally flooded your vision gets small and then we we review page. And we say you know what? I I made a numbskull decision and then you make that process right there. It's a way of triaging your own biology, right? You mean it's not like you don't cuz as inventory person I don't want to roll out with somebody else's sop, right? Cuz that's the team Dynamic that we have you no matter of fact resent it a little bit down. So p i don't agree with comes down, right? Yeah, but I mean what you've got there it sounds like is you kind of got you've got your you've got your situational awareness as a group and then you have come up with your kind of as a group based decision-making you have agreed on what the correct decision should be. So you've still developed a guideline, but obviously your guideline is unique to use unique to your team and you need to how you operate and I know this is something that we discussed before this idea of kind of well, then when you leave a new people come in and their interpretation of a situation might be completely different which means there are so often he'd is going to be completely different. And so that's what you get and it's like it's this idea of hey, I don't know how to necessarily do Nationwide Mission planning. So I'm going to have some experts think about this so I don't make them either uninformed decision or an emotional decision. Right? Like what would you tell that somebody who keeps picking the wrong mate based on some kind of emotional wiring yet wants to be in a relationship with somebody like, I mean some version of somebody else decides and but you're deciding to submit yourself to that right? I think I see what you're saying. Yeah. I think that there is something to be said for Identify your self reflecting on what your own faults are and then deferring to kind of somebody else to make that decision for you. Right? But I think that the the problem is is well one problem. I think you'd have would be investment. So I think that if you if you fully defer everything. And then okay. So if you go to a it's an interesting point, if you go to some of our other work and I like this is very unrelated is on is on kind of how interpersonal interaction right and wrong basically get to is the fundamental essence of human behavior is autonomy as if you look at studies where they put monkeys in cages versus studies where the dog sort where the monkey goes into the cage itself. They're both they're both in they're in the same cage. They're reaction is so much more distressed and so much more emotional if they've been put in the cage and it's because they didn't have the autonomy to choose their outcome of the same thing. I've got a puppy here. I have to try and make the puppy think that it chose to go to the pain to go to bed because if I pick him up and put him in the pain to go to bed. He's not going to sleep for two hours away. So I do think that when it comes to decisions, it is interesting balance. I literally realise I contradicted myself but there's this interesting that there's fundamental kind of challenge there of we like feeling Like we have autonomy like we like to feel that we choose things. We don't like our lives being chosen for us. But at the same point we also really don't actually like making choices that often because it is all on us and I think that comes out. I mean the difference there is going to be this idea of accountability. But how accountable are you going to be for your actions now with your relationship dilemma or relationship example off the what are the costs of repeated failed relationships? I mean not that it's a lot of my life lately broke. Yeah, they can be a big fiscal call back. If not, it's not the same degree of accountability as you know, if you make a decision in a job-related realm and the accountability is, you know, termination of service or the lives of thousand things. So I think it that's probably a Nuance there in terms of like we can go and make poor personal decisions routinely and if the consequences Aren't Dead As drastic and Azrael, it's probably you're more likely to continue the behavior. I think in an employment-based world where the accountability and the outcomes is so high that's when things get a lot more murky. I think and a lot more kind of I think that's where probably more likely to embrace avoidance. I think it's a business. You've got to think about this. So one of the things I think about sop specific life is businesses have okay, let's go to the Afghan. Let's go to the Afghan war right the app. They have a national war strategy if you will, which is this is how may want the war to go? Right? And the Crystal can come in and he can literally change the whole strategy from you know, I want all decisions to be around hunting insurgents and you know, a counterterrorism operation who I want all decisions to reflect a fundamental respect for the civilian population and counterinsurgency principles. So that is supposed to bleed its way down through all decisions that are made dead. All the way down to the the everyday Patrol any decision you make down on patrol should reflect this overarching, you know, General Stanley McChrystal one decision that he made at the top but the problem that you have and this is like what you were talking about. Chris is on the on the ground level. You also have made decisions and are making decisions about how you think it's best to operate say you have to balance bottom up decision-making where you're benefiting from your experience is how you know, your group Works how you know your village Works how you know, you can achieve the things you need to do and just top-down directive of we need everything to kind of in unity all be in accord with this overarching decision that we've made. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know and there's definitely plenty of room there for disagreement and for misalignment and and everything in between. So, you know one thing we had talked about. I think it'd be interesting to explore a little bit too in terms of hard decisions out. There are some of the decisions that have to get made in for example police and fire service and those types of Arenas. What are some things maybe that you you have seen or maybe some of these ideas that we can apply to those situations? I mean, I think if you look at the most I think the way the the clear decision that we're seeing I mean at least at is at the Forefront of the public Consciousness, right is this kind of I think this use-of-force decision and I think there's I mean so long as as a UK person, you know, obviously this is not something that I've grown up surrounded by but I mean since being in America now eight years, you know, it's it's a pretty constant source of of discussion and when whenever. Tell anyone you study decisions one of the ones that they bring to the fore almost is, you know, the drug. What do you think about you know, police shootings and police use-of-force now, I think studying it or looking at external. I think the the first point that I would make is that when it comes to high uncertainty decision-making you do have to be able to separate process from outcome. There's the I mean these original original the original work in I think was Nineteen ninety-eight a residue or Erasmus 1998 studied the NASA pilots and she she wrote it in a paper. She wrote their, you know, when it comes to life, you know, these kind of decisions good good outcomes are as much about luck as they are about good decision-making. Right? Right and this comes in two people judge off. All the time in politics is like well that president had a bad outcome. Well, what if this decisions were between bad horrible and gosh darn awful exactly and also, yeah, he doesn't know. Yep. And this is why least worst decisions are at least worse and we all face them. You don't know what happens if you do if you do a okay, let's go with the police shooting example, right so long one option is that you and I'm going to I'm going to strip down the decision to a binary use Force don't use Force. I think the more complicated argument here is actually there are alternative courses of that potentially could there be alternative courses of action that don't make it this binary decision. I think that's a that's actually the the discussion that should be had. But let's go with it to Binary decision, right? If you choose to shoot down there are two options one you saved your life in the life of your fellow police officers because the person was going to do violence option to the person was not going to do violence and you were harmed and hurt in a billion Who had who posed no threat of harm. They are too realistic outcomes if you choose option eight if you choose option b, The the outcomes are either a that as an option b being don't do anything. Hey that you are harmed and your fellow troops. Are are your fellow officers are harmed or be that no harm comes to anybody and the individual was not going to do any harm anyway, and everything's okay and that that manifest in the police, but I studied that in the military of interview tonnes of soldiers who have faced very very similar decisions when I'm eating out as part of the civilian population, right this basically, I don't know what's going to happen what this person could do. They could do something very very harmful. This could be something completely benign and I don't know. Yeah, they make sure that framing you did about decision criteria when I talked to people about this stuff all the time cuz I oh you're in the Army way it on this. They don't even Frame It That Way. Well, let's just lay the options out. Yep. Yep, exactly structurally. If you had to play the odds like I never want to gamble against the house. That's why I think with the Vegas once I thought it was gosh. This is ridiculous. You know. Yep. Oh, the tables hot statistics aren't hot or cold buddy. Yeah, so but when you look at the decision, it's structurally biased towards a violent outcome because you're juggling. Okay, it gets down to I think a very very sacred value and I mean this this if this is something that the full and needs to be unpacked and I mean we can talk about I think from an organizational standpoint if an organization has a has a decision that is repeatedly being made that is you know, is is is having negative and bad outcomes. They need to break down the decision and say what are the two values that play here? And if you look at the police decision at the moment one value is protecting the police officer themself and one value is protecting the civilian population. You cannot have both at the same time. You can have 60/40 of one or the other but at some point you need to put a policy in place to go home. I want to go home. I may lose my job and reprimand but I don't want to die and not see my kid that I know I agree with you that there's a there's a psychological theory called Terror management Theory which is we're just biased way to avoid the most costly error and often the most costly error is something that harms and murders ourselves cuz I mean you have to take well today. I'm I'm just going to get shot today maybe to get a friendlier picture for police enforcement right today. I'm I'm going to do the Sakura. I mean if you're in a fight with your team in Afghanistan, you might be like, I've got to go get those my buddies leading out over there and I'm going to run across this field getting shot at and you're like, you know what I may just freaking died and I'm just going to do it. I'm going to take that risk, but when you got to go day in and day out twenty Thirty Year career as a police officer, you can't have that mindset of I'm just going to never pull out my gun ever. Cuz like that's ridiculous. Right? I agree. But the thing is if you look at the so when you're that decision itself is a phenomenal difficult decision. Now what it means is that way someone can make the very very best decision that they can in a very very horrible High uncertainty awful situation, right and they can have a good outcome or a bad outcome. They can take you know, they can use offensive force and the person can oppose a threat and they can save everyone's life at the same point they can use offensive force and they can they can get it wrong. But the decision they made with the best possible decision in terms of a process at the same time. Also, someone can make a very bad decision in terms of process and they can they can choose the same outcome, but they've got there through a a bad kind of decision-making process where you know, they misinterpreted the situation or they just generally get did the wrong thing for the wrong reasons, you know, some of the military cases we've seen I did dead. Some some work on the uh, there's a documentary on the Lawrence case, which you know, we've got a lot of press last year. That was a that was a bad decision by all accounts, right? He made people do the bad decision. So you've got a process which can be good or bad and you've got an outcome that can be good or bad and they are perfectly correlated. Now, the problem that I'm seeing is that we are judging on outcomes and not judging on processes. And I mean, I think a lot of it comes down to almost maybe maybe it's something as simple as fundamental attribution error, right when we make our own errors, we blame our environment when someone else makes error we blame the person but I think that there needs to be a we can't constantly assume that a bad outcome is and is indicative of a bath Asian making process and we definitely can't avoid investigating the process and I think what we're seeing at the moment is that I think people are very quick to infer process from outcome. And so just as a decision I can person decision-making researcher. I would always argue that you know, we we need to investigate the process and this is something that I mean I've been doing this more recently actually, but I've been doing some work on on on cases on murder charges where people you know, look at the the individual on trial and they're going for you know Murder one and they're saying this is premeditated premeditated murders and I've done some kind of gang working past and things like that and it's like no no you need to look at this person's process and assess when they made their decision what was going through their mind what their courses of action, how they perceive the situation and did they make the best albeit awful but the best decision that they could or did they make a terrible decision in which they say should be fully culpable for their actions as I think from the the problem is that that process question is so tough and you can get protective on one side of the other but it is what it comes down plus the issues too. It's policy is dead. Think every time you go overseas with the government, right? Well, oh well America just goes and screws up every country it went into. Right. They're they're looking at outcomes right versus maybe not the decision process. Like they're not familiar with the complexity of policy and different things that that go in there, but it's another thing. Oh, well, I think that people it's it's a simple activity but I think that mapping decisions out in terms of the least worse outcomes from both options. It just it shows you how complicated decisions are one of the if we're going to talk about kind of a policy-making decision. I think it really interesting one would be kind of intervention in Syria, you know, actually the one that if anything was kind of the the the the decision not to intervene now you map that out, right? So you've got this emerging you've got this emerging kind of group of kind of you know, Al-Qaeda Affiliates Al-Qaeda and Iraq is breaking off kind of beginning to operate and the question is do we go in, you know, do we operate militarily or do we not operate militarily? Well, let's say you operate militarily, right? What are the outcomes outcome one grayed out dead? You put them down that no more issues and you've controlled kind of or minimize the amount of harm that's being caught in that area other outcome you recreate or redo off the early, you know, nineteen ninety-eight, you know Afghan intervention in which you go in and kind of make things worse or you know, how you know, Iraq 2003 got you go in and get most create the problem that you went in there to solve and then they get more support from the civilian population and they get bigger and they get more powerful and you've created that right. So acting military base one great outcome one awful outcome. Let's not act now will not act good outcome. Nothing really happens, you know, they go away or you know, there's infighting and they fall apart and you don't need to worry about it in a year. Not at not out not acting out. Number two, they grow into a massive terrorist organization that inspires terrorist attacks all over the world and establish is a physical stronghold and a caliphate now. It's very easy to look at that outcome and say well that was terrible decision-making process it but you don't know that if you hadn't if we hadn't chosen to page, hadn't chosen the other outcome that it wouldn't have created an equal negative situation. So I think in most policy decisions and this is why you know, I personally don't want to be president but most policy decisions are the least worst. And you know, if you look at I think I think a really interesting and this actually I think Matt this maps on to what Matt spoke about in your last episode right off is when people are making least worst decisions and I think it's something we can we can we can go to and a bit I think to talk about how people make them but one of the biggest guiding principles is going to be kind of people's values systems, which is linked to their purse. Politics and so it's interesting to see a bombers handling versus Trump's handling right Obama famously established a red line in Syria. And when it was crossed didn't really operate militarily or take a quantifiably large military intervention Trump on the other hand have been very militarily orientated when it comes to movements and the use of chemical weapons, you know in Syria in an office. So I'm not saying either of those decisions are better than the other. I'm not saying one made a better decision making process than the other what I think is probably true is that both faceless worst decisions, they both went out with their value systems and they both came to different outcomes and it is luck and time that will tell us in hindsight who made better decisions. But but the problem is that when we look at when when we are when we have a responsibility to investigate how people make decisions. It's very very easy to get distracted by outcomes at the cost of really investigating their process because there is no Process is done on face of what the outcomes will be and that I'd say that I don't know what ESPN would have a business model if you know cuz everything's about well and you get like some law school, you know sitting on their couch calling in. Hey, I just want to call in about that call. What was that coach thinking that guy is a big dummy, you know, we would would have won the game and like dude. He's got the position of Coach what you got a Beer Drinker at home like that. And and it's it's that kind of thing that we have so much in social media drives a lot of this, you know, let's go find out from Joe listener on the street. Hey, what do you think about that? Wait, this is Sky have any expertise in this kind of stuff going on it outcome orientated, you know, and it's nice outcome orientated on steroids probably with a bit of fundamental attribution error and the human tendency to assume we would have done it better answer you put all of those things and you can get and you know, it's not nice dog. To have your decisions, you know investigated and questioned by the The Wider population because at least worst decisions usually create a fifty-fifty split anyway, so 50% of people disagree with you. But if it has a bad outcome, then that 50% is now, you know, given given some view of support that they were right all along and it's one of those problems but it's interesting because when we look at organizational decision making choices, you're making military decision-making, you know, a lot of this stuff people start to think about this they start to think about this idea of what are people going to say about the decision I make not is the decision. I made the best possible chance. I've got to do the best thing right? It's what are people going to say if I do this and what are people going to say? If I do this that's nice where you want people to be you don't want people in in high-stakes situations making decisions on how do I think people are going to judge the decision? I made you want people to make decisions on how long And I save the most lives. How can I do the most good? How can I protect the most people there's a paper again? I'm going to bring in my second favorite paper now, but the the safety paper that I mentioned earlier, right the title is called how accountability and uncertainty derail strategic save life decisions. And that's what they found when people were in uncertainty and feeling highly accountable as in what's going to happen with me. They stopped thinking about what decision protects the population what decision brings the best good to this. They started thinking what decision is the most defensible if it's wrong in the morning what decision doesn't put me on the front page headlines of the newspapers? Yeah. We've seen that in the Army, you know, when we roll outside the wire everybody. Hey, I'm just going to pump all this decision up and then it's off. Is it your fault 123 not it, you know, like and nobody's focused on you know, what's the benefit or take a look at organizations the budgeting process. So so you report to me home? Neil and and it's so I say hey Neil listen your budget was two million dollars last year for your section and I'd like to get 40% more work out of you for 25% less. So I'm trying to get the most work for the least amount of money, right? And then what did you say to me? You say? Oh, well, gee I want to actually get more money for Less work. But what's missing here? It's like how is this going to help us win in the business space? Right. Nobody has the the whole budget process sets up a decision making that's about deal-making between individuals rather than pushing the organization strategically forward. No, I I hundred percent agree that but that's the thing if people are. In an organizational culture, I think incentives and I think priorities are some of those things that can not always match what strategically or the long term is best phone now has a Sheehan and that's kind of one of the things that I think we've talked about a lot in terms, you know, how can organizations make better decisions it is self reflecting on what are the cultural variables that people are factoring into their choices and are they the cultural variables that you want people to be thinking about when they're making these kind of decisions. I mean like an example, I would give it a few thinking about, you know, life like a fortune five hundred or some kind of financial firm, right and they're making all these decisions are they thinking about now you can say as an organization that you want them to be thinking about the the stakeholders or say you want them to be thinking about the the people whose money is invested in these companies. But what is that organizational culture actually encourages making deals and being competitive with the guy next to you to make sure yep. Get the promotion or you get that quarterly bonus or whatever it is. Right that is if those cultural norms and there's the most poignant cultural factors. That's what people are going to be thinking about when they start to make there. Now that's human decision-making process. But what you need from an organization is is you need to know what they are and you need to make sure that they all aligned we wrote a book in there. Sorry a chapter in the book. We wrote down on conflict team conflict, right and a lot of it comes from this mismatch of values write your individual values about what you think you should do clash with the organizational values of what the organization thinks you should do. And then if you're putting those if you're putting the decision and you have on on one side what you think you should do because what you want to do as a person and what you know, you think you value and on the office you have a decision of what you think the organization wants you to do for what the organization values as an organization that is a is a horrible position to be and I'll give you a I'll give you an example and these job Down to I mean what I think is one of the more formative decisions of the soldiers are interviewed, but there was a soldier who basically was was offering of operating base. And basically he was there was a group of his of soldiers up in the mountain being attacked by I think hundred maybe 200 Taliban outlet and they basically asked him to put together, you know, a quick reaction force. Oh a small group of troops to go up there and help them out help them repel. So that's exactly what he did got the guys together left the base of the unprotected but knew the right decision went up there and help them and and not the Taliban and then another guy his Senior comes over to him and he basically says, you know, right congrats everyone. Thanks, right. Everyone's basically beaten up. No, mo no food tired. I want you to now go in a mountains and get me my battle damage assessment. Right? How many bodies are there? Because my commander wants me to report how many bodies there were at this battle and he told me he said in a few seconds he weighed up dead. Protecting everyone around him which is what he as a person felt he's there to do and what the organization wanted him to do and the Army leader wanted him to do completely but opposite. He said he waited up in about six seconds and he said I knew I was saying goodbye to my twenty-year career and I said me and everyone on my side of driving back to base see you later and that I mean the intestinal fortitude to make that decision stick to this day. I mean unbelievable, but that is that's from an organizational standpoint. That's not what you want. You don't want people deciding between the value. They hold most dear and a value that you as an organization want them to be leveraging because you'll get those situations where people will either a a a sacrifice themselves to make the business decision which will hurt them in the long run resentment trauma or whatever. It is. It's not worth what you want them to be doing or be they'll say two fingers to the organizational culture and they'll make the decision that that drives them. You know, ideally you need some kind of alignment, you know, you need people who ever value a line off. With what the organization is giving them in order for them to make the decisions that you want them to make. That's that's a really good question is actually what it's one of the biggest challenges that that Lawrence and I have faced and I know you mentioned earlier kind of our our Penguin book, but you know, we the picture of that was we're open conflict how soldiers make impossible decisions and and you speak to people everyone's like I'm a terrible decision-maker. I'd love to know more about this fantastic move all the other sentence in my own everything. I probably go out to help my friends one thing. I'd like to leave our listeners with I think is great and funny situations instead of making the black and color is it in and put down a little bit of anybody hard decisions in awful situations how we can help anyone make a decision if we can understand that, you know, it's kind of like that. I think I think it's like the Fitness World, right if it trains the if it trains the US are they you can train at any any everybody loves it. Right? Anyone can be trained by it's the same with decision and it's the same with science so I think when I was like I think if I try to think about too fundamental lessons here, they all almost done from the same place. But I mean then you'll I know that you've you've got you got your Ph.D. So you're you're appreciate this moment. But I remember I wrote mine so mine was on the soldier decision-making work. All the interviews did some research study and I wrote, you know, three I wrote seven chapters of basically empirical work and I sat there and I thought right out what I need to do is I need to take a week off. I need to relax and I'm going to I'm going to reflect on this this process before I write my you know, over aggrandize and egocentric conclusions a claim of sold all the world's problems and and I was on Instagram, right and and and Chris Hemsworth has this this probably paid advert for this book by a guy called Mark Mark Manson, and it was called the subtle art of not giving a most people will recognize the right bright orange cover big black words, you know is very very visible and Chris Hemsworth was like great book and also a Thor recommends it as exactly yep. Read so I guess, to come come through the map and I sit down and I'm reading it and I'm trying to take this time off and I kid you not in the first ten Pages. He had said every he basically said my PhD but it said it much better than I did and much more basically says these two I think fundamental lessons when we think about decision making the Thursday. It's basically he say he said it's it's called the kind of the the back woods law and it's a philosopher Alan Watts, and I've got a philosophy friend Nick Evans. It'll probably be very upset if I murder this one bit of philosophy, but what he basically said is that the desire to experience is in itself a negative experience and paradoxically the acceptance of one's negative experience is a positive experience. And that to me just resonates with decision-making because think about at least worst decision. I just decisions in general in which you can't guarantee that. Everything's going to be fantastic, right? You have to accept it's going to suck. I mean guys you don't you'll you'll know that kind of you know, military military adage, you know, like embrace the suck right? So I think you just gotta accept that it's not going to be perfect and only once you've accepted that it isn't going to be great then can you work out? What's the best thing I can do for me? Right and I mean like a big kick out of that and personally, I think a big example of that at the moment is kind of, you know, covid-19 releases, right? We need to embrace the negative if you if you start if you start to undo a lock down cases are going to go off debts going to go up but only by embracing and accepting the negative the true reality of the situation. Can we strike try to make positive decision the opposite right this quest for the positive. I'm going to make sure Everything brilliant all that's going to do all that's going to do is create this like redundant deliberation because no option offers you pure total positivity, Therefore if your quest is this has to be the best ever. All I can do is show you why I won't boot and that's where you see, you know, there's this this individual trait that we kind of done some research on called maximization write this down decision-making Theory right? There are satin, you're satisfied thing in there as maximizing satisficing is it's good enough. I'll be fine maximizing is I want the absolute best maximizers worst life decisions. They're less happy with their own decisions. They spend more time. All these things right maximizing is in the real world. It's okay. If you want to buy a car, right you want to make sure that your $8,000 get back to the best car with the low mileage and the and the nicest heated seats, but in the real world like a covid-19 Down release, you can't maximize that but trying to maximize it all that's going to do is lead to suck. Redundant deliberation delays status quo that status quo biased so I think that often we have to have a really tricky and I think honest conversation that things are going to suck but what we're going to do is we're going to make the best decision that we can to have advanced the most positivity out of this that we can and then the second part of that. Is that okay? If everything going to suck right some some bad things are going to happen. How do we make sure that the good thing that happens is the really important good thing and this is where so we we wrote a paper on colliding sacred values box got his work on sacred and secular values and basically what Marc Monson how he phrased it, which is again probably wouldn't get published but it's far more articulate. It's basically he said the goal of a good life. Yeah. He's the art of not giving a But he clarifies that to say it's not about not giving up that's called psychopathy right? It's almost I think you mentioned earlier Chris Wright not caring about a decision, right? That's not good. He said the art of not giving a month is giving about something so much that you don't give a fuk about the adversity and that's what we always talk about and we preach in our kind of research is off. The good decision-making is about a very clear value hierarchy one of the things that I got. I remember being an absolute failure my PhD was on decision and not in the military, right? So so facing on certain decisions do they do they succumb to decision inertia do they fall foul of decision avoidance? Do they get stuck in redundant deliberation and like interviewed soldiers and they kept making decisions really quickly like super tough decisions that we don't see in other cultures and I was like why and the end of it while I kind of identified was they have a very long Very clear value structure. It goes 1 2 3 and I'm not going to speak for all of them because there is individual difference but it was one guy said it first did I had three priorities in this protect my troops home complete the mission protect civilians. And if you have one two, three, you can normally make a decision when people struggle to make decisions. It's cuz they have a tie at 1 and 2 I want to do is I want to protect the population but at the same time I need to protect myself. I want to go and make it the best I can out the situation but God I can't I can't be wrong. So when you have equal equally home or an opposing values, that's when people struggle the people who make the best decisions they can articulate one two, three, and I've used that in my everyday life my my wife and I had bought a good wedding, right? So we were do a big big shindig New Orleans met hundreds of people flying over and and Covetous happening as I write. We have to make at least worst decision here. There's no good choices. What is our values? Araki, what is the one thing that matters to us? And we sat there we discussed it we said right what matters to us is that we are married on May on May 24th. Was it ended up being May 31st. We get married, right? That's it. We can sacrifice a celebration. We can even sacrifice my mum being there like my family be in there that but this is the one value and that's how we that's how we made a decision and when we do trade-ins, that's what we teach now goal-oriented decision making more value-oriented decision-making articulate value one and then value to Yeah, people's behavior is monkey. See monkey do okay and that's like okay. Now I'm going to do the self-serving thing to get promoted to move up to move up. And then now they're executive-level. Hey, man, and I just want to really highlight the person I've talked about this podcast before this dealership standpoint. We have to know and what you think values are what are your non-negotiables as a person? And you know, I think once you have that in place, I mean they need to be done and I feel this principle sign it says that you face and come out somewhere that's off and then if you didn't have those, how do I develop values? I mean, we brought a consultant and we we've got this plaque on the wall and it says integrity and honesty and happiness you off and your and it's like dude, you've got to go get a moral education, right? You need to talk stand on the shoulders of giants with this stuff. There's a bunch of thinkers. I'm not going to say just I come out of the western Canon tradition. I love that. I'm not super familiar with some of the stuff out of the East but like you can if you don't know what the great books are. You gotta get plugged in guys because you've worked yourself on out onto a plank of values that you are not equipped. Who cares that you can make it sexy PowerPoint or crash all the freaking Excel models and and look back and I haven't figured out how to pull that one up but you got all this stuff and now your values and this is what's so great about what Nils saying as I go on this rant at our listeners as these values are the way you make decisions that are hard and ambiguity with uncertain outcomes and all that kind of stuff. There's not some like oh, well, I followed the abc123 because you're getting to where the cool stuff in life is and individual relationships raising your kids going out being a police officer everyday helming the ship of an Enterprise and the business page. I'm all the cool stuff is out there on The Fringe, you know who wants to say it's like well, how was your life while I applied all the rules correctly and completely copacetically. I mean, it sounds like I mean, maybe there's some guy there's a guy came out there that's lived that way and figured out how to do it and happy. Hey, I'm not raining on your parade buddy. But lot of the people that listen to this show are really trying to do something and and if you want to do something cool, you gotta get your values straight. I'm I'm glad you I'm glad you went on around there because I feel like I've been talking a lot this entire time. So I thought my voice is probably getting monoxide. You're smarter than us too. Well so interested because so we actually did this we started doing this work recently. There was a chapter in the book and I am I driving some work about One of the things that I noticed was that the that people these decisions people made by these lease worst decisions. They always they always had one and it was it was always very formative to them and their identity as a thought exploring, you know, well what happens if these decisions what happens if you make a decision that's against your value and we got really into a song called a moral injury in in in an injury and servicemen and that is defined as a value transgression. And so we were talking about we started writing about stuff like covid-19. You know, I'm not saying every decision but the extreme decisions that truly test your values that that's the link that we're seeing with a lot of people about kind of, you know, moral injury trauma and just struggling to to live with the decisions that they've made and that's as important as making a decision as being able to make it be okay with outcome good or bad and live with it. And a lot of that comes to being Guided by your values it almost think Ricky Gervais said it once a long time ago, and I probably took it far too literally, but he basically said I'm darwinian I am who I am. I'm going to be me and I will either survive or die I will be successful. I will not be successful and sometimes I think you know we have to do that. We have to know what our values are know what's important to us and be driven by and stick to it. I think organizations need to do that. If she has a she has need to be true to their values and be guided by them. And I think people need to do the same things. But it it's self-reflective. It's in a situation where everything sucks truly. What is the birth? Thing like you said, then the non-negotiable Chris the non-negotiable, but we have to know that and be clear and then be be so confident in it that we don't give a fuk about all the adversity the follows because I'm stuck to the most important thing. Yeah, I run into These Guys these Executives hollowed out and it's because they've just well, I just went with what the organization that you know, the survival mentality like why why why does life not have any colors? That's to it where where am I? Who am I I'm having a midlife crisis which are trying to paper over the whole of my heart with Ferraris and hotdogs AIDS, you know, and it's it's ridiculous and but then some people they just really haven't had this foundational moral education. And so, you know, the humanities wasn't a big part. They hadn't thought about or maybe come up through an organization that teaches some morality likes a boy scouts or something like that dead. And so they're like hey, there's something here, but I need to come up with some values and that's soul-searching doesn't happen. You can't do that in a two-hour session at church on Sunday 1 Sunday. He can't do that in a two-hour yoga sweat Retreat. You can't do it at that peyote sweat lodge. This is a process that has to unfold as you are having that dialogue internal yourself and reflecting on some situational scenarios to kind of test drive in your mind, you know doing the work of Crisis without the crisis right really having your thinking cap on with this is we we can throw a paper coming out soon called for Taylor's of Doom and basically it's that in all in in training you need to train people with you know with these rare on foreseeable, you know, you need to be creative in the challenges that you posed people because the thing about values I think often is you don't really know what they are until you violate one, but you really don't know what time Truly matters to you until you find out that it truly matters to you. And in order to do that, you need to have experience you need to you need to go through the process and it's one of the things that we talked about in terms of organizational decision-making is people practice the RPD stuff a lot. They practice the policy stuff a lot. They don't practice the least worst decisions a lot. So I said, you know all these soldiers going out there phenomenal train. So I thought well all the all the mission rehearsals everything down to a team. They have never been trained to make a decision to make a choice. And so when they're presented with one, they're like, oh this is this is something I don't normally do I do this and it's like that's the kind of squeeze a train people in these skills to face situations where they are juggling things that are all very important to them and a lot of other people and how do I go through that identify the most important one make the decision defend the decision and reflect on the decision. Yeah. I'm so glad you brought up that violation. Peace because that's part of our practice wage. No skill like making moral decisions. Like you're not going to bat a thousand right? You're going to miss a couple and it's that missing in sitting with a ton satisfaction that dissonance between who you want to be and who you were in that moment that helps teach you those lessons to solidify but one of the interesting things is our society doesn't have a way for moral Redemption. No, no the moment, right and so as somebody's like I biffed it, you know, or they have to just stick you late and such a massive massive way to get back in Social good graces, cuz it's that like you said the attribution error outcomes, all those kinds of things. But if the Best Literature that man has ever written Humanity, he's ever written is like this Redemption process, right? Like if people are with the judeo-christian values, that's a whole thing that Christ came That you might redeem yourself that you've actually have this magical forgiveness that allows you to have another app that but if we look at it from a pedagogical perspective everything's about learning, right and you're going to make some of these moral failures but and again, I think from an organizational standpoint, if you know that you're one and done like if you know how long you can you can't you can only make one wrong decision and then it's game over. How much is that going to change your decision making process? Because now you're now you're defense it, right? You're you're always price needs to be avoided and that was that study. I mentioned you when we were prepping for this right? We we recently did a study with soldiers where we put them in higher levels of command and they got more avoided and I spoke to it goes against everything from the social ciclotte, but when I spoke to Lawrence about it, he was like, yeah, I'm not surprised. He was like all the naturalistic where we do put people in command and they become more avoiding. They become more error of verse and birth. That's a cultural then that's a fear of a chance for Redemption. It's say if I'm wrong. I feel it and it's game over for me. Yeah, that's the whole golden parachute thing for CEOs, right? Oh because if they you if you flame out, even though you've got a board of directors that you're resonating your decisions with even though you got all this stuff. They're going to hang in the public forum. And that's where your psyche well since I'll never work again. I need like five million bucks. Chill out and has been for awhile. Right? Cuz I've done I don't get another CEO at-bat unless I start in org on my end. Yep. So when they made a decision they're going to be thinking about right what decision gets me in the least trouble with the Border in the morning not maybe what's best for the company, you know, maybe what's best for the people what decision puts me at least personal risk and maybe ninety percent of the time that decision is the right decision, but they're 10% that decision is not going to align with what the right course of action was, right? That's why I that's why I like studying decisions. To be honest. I think it gets I think they're very very calm. Gated to start to say I think the idea that there are good and bad decisions. It opens up a can of worms. I mean as you can see that we've gone on for at least ninety minutes about and I don't think we've got an answer yet. So that's right, but what's so just to summarize so when we we always wrap up our episodes with advice and we're going to talk about organizational advice here in a second, but for individuals and for leaders, it's the same thing. You gotta wash em dag on value guys, and that that doesn't come easy. If you want great responsibility and a place to live in a place to exist in a psychologically healthy Place morals and values that you explore or develop on your own, right? So awesome. Now, let's talk about organizations. So if you have a control of an organization, or you can shape things and stuff within their culture and that kind of stuff took we want to think what this decision making literature some implications for organizations that maybe want to do this better or Empower their people too. So I think from the organizational standpoint, I kind of break it down into a job. I think there's two issues to think about I think in terms of an applied issue. The first is this idea of culture, right and and and reflecting on how does our organizational culture trickle into the decision-making process and so from the some of the early work I did was on kind of the the US Army adaptation around civilian casualties, right? And that had I think obviously that had really benevolent attention right in a general Stanley McChrystal. What do we get? What don't we understand? We're not going to win a war. If we don't stop killing civilians right great quote, but basically said it then you change the whole policy right when that trickles down. That then manifest itself in a situation where soldiers feel that they can't do the actions that they need to do to save themselves and their men and women because they're worried about violating this strategic level Command, right? That's not a good recipe for operational success now because you've created a value conflict down there and a lot of times are interviewed expressed that exact thing. Sometimes she said I knew it and I did it. Anyway, sometimes I said, I didn't know what to do. Yeah, we cut emissions and 1/2. We stop running out of the fob. Yeah, exactly. So sometimes a organizational culture or value you need to interpret and understand how that's going to manifest in different types of situations and just identify what are those situations that are really going to put stress on that value month. And then how can we either help the people make it in terms of can we do we do we talk about when that value needs to be maybe moved down? Maybe it needs to be seconded or how can we help you today? In terms of letting people know that if they do break that value or make a decision that's in violation of that value. You know, that's okay if it's the right decision, right but they there has to be a reflection on what the organizational values them all and an understanding of what that does to the decision-making process and I think we have to look at the organizational values. I think if you're talking about big businesses and you're talking about public financing businesses though police fire all these things. You also have to think about the you know, the the public culture and what that culture looks like because that's going to come into the decision-making to and this is something that long I mean Lawrence has been studying this for years with terms of UK police UK fire, you know, when they make decisions, you know, they're thinking about the organization and the organizational values, but they're also thinking about you know, public education accountability. And so I think organizations need to be transparent around what the factors are that people are juggling because you can't judge and blame someone for their dog. You're making if you don't anticipate it understand the kind of factors that they're going to be considering and the impact that that's going to have on what they do and the second thing and this is a very we haven't really talked about this. But but I think that it's a personality for organizations, you know, there are people who have certain personality traits that make them slightly better at making decisions anyone who's had a boss and I like guys I've interviewed people we've worked with Chris. I'm sure you've got your own Stories books, you know, there are good decision-makers and bad decision makers there a decisive people in there are involved with people. There are even two decisive people the quarterback analogy. I always give right, you know, you don't want to call back who gets the ball and immediately just makes the two-yard pass a single time cuz he scared to hold on to the ball and he's scared to take the T scared to let the play develop. You also don't want a quarterback who holds the ball is scared to make the past in case there's an interception and let's see. They develop and hold on to it too long that he sat right kind of a Goldilocks model here different personality traits lend you to each of those experience lends you to each of those right? So there's a Personnel issue in terms of if you do need to think about the kind of the science of what a ideal decision maker is that we found we did a study recently in which we compared police officers with military experience to police officers without military experience and we found this thing that we kind of called a foxtrot thinking so police officers who had military experience asset was slower to assess the situation. So they took long to listen to the scenario cognitively cognitively kind of interpretive scenario and then move on to a decision making phase but when they did move on they made the decisions faster, they were faster every single stage picked a choice after committed to it just faster and submitted it faster. And so there's interesting nuances in the way different people make decisions and I think organizations need to sometimes think about that, you know, you don't want people to leadership who are scared. Make the decision right? You don't want people in leadership who are scared to not make the decisions right good decision-making is as much about not making a decision too fast as it is about making a decision wait is like and there is we're kind of unpacking it a bit but there are you know, there are decent indicators around what good decision makers are and I mean the one that we've looked at the most of them, maybe you don't want to maximize her life you if you have people who handle uncertainty every day who have to choose between crap options every day. Maybe you don't want someone who needs it who needs everything to be. Okay. Maybe you need the realist in that right who says it's going to suck but I've got a challenge a challenge orientated mentality. I'm going to make it the best it can possibly be knowing that it sucks man. That is so good. So just reflecting on the organization stuff. You culture just plays so much of a piece on this if you punish somebody for a bad outcome wage. Data review of their process. Nobody's going to make a decision again. They're going to push it push it as far as way so and assessment the kind of people you have in there makes a difference for you. So now we've covered so much territory today we've talked about what is a decision and making hard decisions. We talked about some models for that. We talked about some current applications to events like firefighting policing business and then we talked to about individuals leaders and orgs some implications for them anything else Neil Vogt that you want to throw out there or need. Well, we'll talk about where where can they find you on the web if they want to find you? I would say I'm on Twitter where I kind of where some of our work is Neil shortland Mom. Although I still need to update that that that might be a good place to so I would say if anyone's interested I'd go on a ground truth. Co. Uk, I can give you a link to it. But that's where I am. Large and that's why we put most of our stuff that we do for the kind of the organizations out there. So any of the work we've done for you know, real life businesses, you know, where we kind of look at their decision making and things like that and that's kind of our own not applied from and then you know, the if anyone's interested, you know, if you want to read the science of it, you know, the conflict book is is the favorite thing I've ever written but in May maybe early next year, you know Lawrence and I going to be putting out a book for everyone, you know kind of on on the lessons that we've learned and how anyone from from relationship decisions to business decisions are personal decisions how you can kind of learn from this and and try and seize opportunities because like I don't I don't say it lightly Anderson got it right in 2003. We we love avoidance. We if there's a hard choice we could try everything we can to not make it and so everyone can just do better and be better if we can overcome those hurdles and actually begin to commit in the face of uncertainty and commit in the face of fear dead. Excellent. Anything else you want to add that we didn't cover in this episode gone all the other I think you I think you are you on everything. I know we mowed the lawn or everybody. Thank you Neil for being a podcast. Everybody do check out his links. They'll be in the show notes. And once again, thank you for such a high-quality conversation around decisions. Well, thanks guys for having me. Thanks, Matt Green 4700 rest it, but no credit has been a joy. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you Ben. Thanks for listening to the Indigo podcast. If you like this podcast, please consider helping off by rating us on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen telling her friends about us having us on your podcast or mentioning us on social media. Our website is www.indigocard.com where you can access more information about us and this episode. Thanks again, and we look forward to talking with you again soon.

officer Chris Evert Army partner Lowell Neil Professor Lawrence Allison Gary Klein UK Neil shortland Iraq Gary Matt Taliban Cleveland State University University of Liverpool University of Massachusetts Oxford University assistant professor of crimino Gary Pine
Managers as Coaches: Great Idea or Total Numbskullery?

The Indigo Podcast

44:50 min | Last month

Managers as Coaches: Great Idea or Total Numbskullery?

"Welcome to the Indigo podcast and exploration of human flourishing at work and Beyond. I'm been Barren of indigo anchor and Cleveland State University, and I'm Chris Evert of indigo. Anchor more information, please visit us at www.pfizer.com. Hey, so today we're talking about managers as coaches and specifically coaching as a critical part of Performance Management coaches in the workplace and manage just as part of that stuff and how organizations can promote coaching Behavior. That's right, and we're talking about this because we have seen in the HR world and in talking with some of our leaders and development types of gurus in our Circle that this is an important topic that people are wondering about this and trying to figure it out in terms of how we we can have better coaching in the workplace and whether or not this should be something managers do so, let's start off and talk about this idea of coaching as a critical part of Performance Management. And as always we are drawing upon the social science literature today to talk about this topic in a an evidence-based manner. So two articles will post links to him in the show notes one is from Steelman and wolf dog. The manager has coached the role of feedback orientation that's in the Journal of business and psychology. And then we got another article by number of authors and it called a multiple phases of coaching managers coach Executive coaching a formal mentoring and that's an organizational development Journal. Okay. So let's start off with the landscape. So what are some things we need to be thinking about more broadly to try to contextualize and Define all of this cross? Yeah. So there's all these words so many words and they always get interchanged. Right and I think it's helpful to separate these off and think about them individually. So sometimes they you know, they may not mean what they you think they mean right so you got available. Yes for those off Princess Bride. Yeah, which they did as a drive-in movie here in Park City, which was pretty cool past my kids bedtime so we didn't get to but so anyway, Got training you got coaching. You've got education. You got mentorship. You got feedback. Oh my goodness. If you went to probably assure of education course, maybe you call it leadership and development or you've got corporate education. You got all these so many all the words. That's right. Yeah, right. So it is very helpful for us to break these down first to briefly Define them so we can know what on Earth were actually talking about when we talk about coaching. The first piece is training and so training is typically defined as something that's more of a periodic or systematic approach toward skill-building right these things that require some practice it could be management and coaching skills, right you could train on that but when we're talking about trading it's more about skill building, right? Right. So yeah, like I you know, I always think of you know, somebody went to army training, right and somebody has had a dog or two, you know, I always feel like the dog at the training wage. And it's like okay. This is where George learns to do. Good. Good Boy George. Is that what happens at army training where you learn? How to Army? Yeah you learn now, which is like maybe this is how you sit in a page her for half the day doing ranges. But anyway hurry-up-and-wait, right? I mean you gotta cohort anyway, so trainings about specific skills, right? So like I can train you how to put gas into a lawn mower or how to change the oil in your car. Like that is a very odd specific skill notice how that has nothing to do with the complexity of billing or complex customer interaction writing is like know George didn't know how to do that. George knows how to put oil in a car. All right training. You gotta have that like you can't do anything without at least some modicum of skill in some right and then says let's contrast that that with with education what's education about Yeah, so this is like so this is where you take those raw materials as raw skills that you get in the training environment and this is knowledge building right. So you're actually adding to all these individual skills and maybe putting them together. To think about something broader. How would you define education man? I mean you're an educator technically supposedly word on the street is that I'm an educator. So I mean typically I think of it as knowledge building and you know, for example in my courses that I teach at Cleveland State University, I teach a number of NBA level courses and programs, you know courses in our masters in age our program and you know, those are more about the knowledge they're so for example in my age are class that I I teach for MBA students and others. It's it's all about a here's what the legal contracts of HR is here's what Staffing is and how it operates in organizations Performance Management employee relations compensation benefits, all these different topics and giving students the knowledge that they need to be able to understand how these things operate in organizations. We don't go into skills. Really right skills are more about practicing things and trying things out and learning how to do things in your organization. Where it's like, okay, we talk about, you know, the education piece of maybe compensation and benefits and dr. Barons class. Now, we're going to go we're going to figure out how that operates in my organization. That would be much more about skills, which is not something that I can do in my course, right? Because I have people from all over a different organizations and so forth. So education raw materials knowledge-building training skills building another piece here is feedback. So feedback is that information that about some sort of specific instance of job performance that a person shares with another so it could be a a supervisor saying hey, here's something thousand well or did not do well or it could go in the other direction where maybe you're even providing some feedback to the boss or with appear so feedbacks that information piece and you know, this is kind of a single data point on a particular topic and you know, usually try to calibrate that with maybe some other data points for that feedback instance. That's yeah so teaching though. Yeah. Yeah, but before he hopped off Coaching let me pop in so there's this field of it practice known as Knowledge Management. And so go note when you get a chance go Google the Knowledge Management pyramid, right? And so at home base level you got data, right that's just stuff my if you got a piece of feedback, that'd be one data point right that you take that data and you turn it into information, right? This is where the data is contextualized categorized and it may be calculated. You got a graph right and then so data turns into information and information turns into knowledge. So I talked about that knowledge piece that we're talking about that's know how experienced Insight understanding this is information. That's now contextualized in the broader sphere now how long how do we move up that knowledge pyramid from training education those kinds of ideas and feedback which could be just one data point and we all love it when a manager that doesn't know wage. Going on or a senior VP or director comes by and just says something like well, why is this happening horsa? I call it a you know said what do they do? They call it pigeon management where they fly in crack all over everything and then just get away right? It's like like hey guys just giving you feedback. Right? Well, so you're in that environment right with the with the training education and then maybe some dry by trappings. What are you going to do with all that stuff? I mean, it's just a primordial ooze of the environment you find yourself in life. And this is where coaching and mentorship as well can come in a place. These are people who are guides that'll say okay. Are you doing something not just okay stuff, but are you doing some better stuff with that training knowledge education and feedback, right? So you're coaching itself, you know is typically more FAQ. One-on-one type of process that involves maybe some specific skill and knowledge building and it usually pertains to a particular role. So, you know helping you do better in your job mentoring is a little bit different from that. So mentoring usually kind of happens outside of your radar system or outside of what we call the chain of command in the military and these are more long-term relationships that are designed to help a person with their career advancement provide some psychosocial guidance, you know this side of fit into the culture and so forth and how to navigate maybe different relationships and we're going to talk more about coaching specifically here today because we're talking about this idea of managers as coaches. So maybe we can move now to talking a little bit more specifically about how coaching really is, you know, a a critical part of the the whole formula for performance management and organization. So, you know Performance Management is about truck. Get people to do work in the the best way possible and it's not just performance appraisal though. Is it? No, I mean so and this is why it became so hard to unpack. Lots of organizations have horrible performance appraisals. They have like this whole concept of how they ingest somebody in the organization treat them grow them do what will just say do stuff with them while they're at the organization and off-board them is just a primordial ooze of shenanigans choices. It's a landmine though to be sympathetic that at this is something you can't just Riff on to execute. Well, so that idea of coaching needs you need to think about it in that knowledge pyramid because if you don't have a basic, you know, that's like talking about like hey, I'm concerned about competing in the NBA this year. Yep. Really Chris. I mean last time I saw you pick up a basketball. You couldn't even dribble. Hey, you can't be having that NBA competition conversation before you have that stuff so long if you're in an HR role, if you're have somebody that has influence on that make sure those key Training and education pieces are are delayed. That's not only for the person is turning the wrench or cranking out the widgets or whatever. But also those key Training pieces for your managers cuz they need to be ready to become coaches. All right, so, you know just to come back to this idea of performance appraisal performance appraisal is that yearly usually type of activity in which someone is formally rated in the system and that's also known as the most awkward time of the year. That's the most awkward time of year. Yes, so it can be right and it has its own purpose and we talked about this in Anna nagar. Episode where I'd encourage our listeners to check that out. We put a link to it in the show notes. So what we're talking about is how we can actually help people develop at work and regardless of whether or not you're on one side of this debate of whether or not performance appraisal is good or not, or you think that you know performance appraisals are the best thing ever regardless of where you fall in that what we can agree upon what the scientist suggests is that having high-quality conversations and relationships between superiors and support subordinates. So to speak or between employees and managers is a very important component of Performance Management. This is ongoing this is not just that once a year thing ongoing high-quality interactions as a critical component of Performance Management in your organization, and that's where this gets messy because you know, it's not just about Having some sort of rigid managed process that you can you know, check in on all the time. This is about managers actually doing the hard work of coaching of developing their people. And so that's what we're going to try to unpack here a little bit today is this idea of managers doing the coaching within the organization? Yeah, and imagine just taking that kind of check the box thing but I don't know how you could say my bad manager per the checklist. I've had six social interactions with said employee. That's that's like God to your kid of like, how do you make you feel my parenting is suboptimal? I went to 70% of your at home games. Yeah, you missed Augusto. Like that's that whole office space. What do you mean? I have four pieces of flair. Well, that's that's the right we can tell when people are doing the minimum and and there's a focus. There's a mindset that people that do better as coaches. Half and they have a bias for feedback been tell tell us about that bias for feedback. Yeah, so people who are good coaches and we'll talk about this a little bit more within the context of this idea called feedback orientation, you know coaches that that like feedback themselves and use feedback themselves tend to be better coaches. They see the value in it. And what I'd like to do is fall before we go too much down that trail of this idea of coaches in the workplace is to think about and we can talk briefly about how being a manager and a coach same time managers as coaches this differs from this more external type of idea of Executive coaching now learning, maybe some Executive coaching skills could help you as a manager. However, this is not the same thing because as a manager you're dealing with these people, you know in the course of your everyday work. This is not not some sort of kind of dog. Journal intervention to try to take someone to the next level so, you know to quote from one of the articles that we post a link to the show notes. This is the Steelman and wolfeld article wage. I'm going to read this and it's I'll try to do keep it interesting for all of our listeners in a dramatic voice. So here's what here's what they say cuz I think it's really good how they Define this they say and I quote the manager has coach is a critical component of organizational Performance Management processes managers who actively work to improve the skills competencies and performance of direct report viewed as coaching managers. Gregory and Levy 2010 another study to find the manager as coach process as a developmental activity in which an employee Works one-on-one with his or her direct manager to improve current job performance and enhance his or her capabilities for future roles and challenges the success of which is based on the relationship between the employee and manager as well as the use of objective information, such as feedback performance data or assessments and I'll pause right there before we kind of move on with a little bit more of that quote because I just I love how they they say the success of this is based upon the relationship between the employee and the manager. Yeah, because I see all the time where it's just treated transactionally. Yeah, right and and and it's treated trans actually because the person above that manager normally talks about well tell me how you're managing and they focus on some kind of like Progressive discipline all of these things. It's not a thriving relationship that builds on the success of what the employees already doing to Greater success of what they could be doing. Right and it's also presents a little bit of a challenge because if I tell an organization, hey, you guys all be amazing an amazing, you know managers as coaches type organization. If you implement these three steps and give everybody this specific tool that that's a lot easier thing for me to swallow and say oh well, that's wonderful. Mr. And mrs. Vendor. I'm going to use that now to change my organization solve world hunger with Windex and this one easy trick. I mean, this is the same verse Have those really horrible clickbait, you know dancing person advertisements that are on the web and yet your vendors anybody that's an executive role is bombarded by these but in their mid-market companies they may oh, well, this one looks interesting, you know, they have an idea they want something but these vendors are saying Hey, look, it's just this too easy tricks or off even covered the secret system to manager coaching. Yeah. They are liars. Don't believe them right there is no secret here. Yeah, I would say the only secret is that you know, that isn't really a secret is that it really does come down to these relationships that develop between employees and their managers and so you have to have people who have those good leadership skills have those relationship building skills in order for any kind of coaching to actually work and one reason for this is that we are much more likely to accept Any kind of feedback that comes from someone whom we view as credible whom with whom we have a decent relationship, you know, if you just walk in and maybe I have a bad relationship with your boss. Don't trust you. Maybe I just just met you and you start giving me a lot of feedback. It's harder for me to accept that than it is if I have worked with you. I trust you. I think you're credible. You're a good source of information. So that relationship piece is so critical so got to focus on that first and I'll continue with this quote because I love it in that article, they continue and say and I quote again effective coaching managers do more than conduct an annual performance appraisal. They evaluate patterns and Trends and employee performance. They create awareness through ongoing feedback. They provide learning experiences opportunities for reflection and assist in action planning identifying critical steps to goal accomplishment coaching managers provide guidance in the interpretation and utilization of feedback for birth. Setting and self-regulation. That sounds like first of all, hey, I have to actually care as a manager about my people number one and number two. It sounds like I've gotta put in some effort wage and and so whenever interviewing managers or people just stepping up to a director role one of the good questions. Like why do you want to manage people lots of times we'll get what we want to make money. First of all that tells me two things that that one whoever's managing him now doesn't know or her now doesn't know how to develop leadership coaching Baptist people, you know, so it's like that's not just a knock on that person cuz who doesn't want to make some more cash. Yeah cash is pretty cool. So but then the second thing is it's like the person is missing a thing is like I'm adding value more than just making sure people stay show up on time that we have a good schedule and then I log Vacations like there's this whole dynamic of in increasing the quality of the organization and how all the interactions happen within it right off, right? You can't fake this stuff as we often times say if you try to well, you know, it's not going to work nearly as well as it as it could so, you know, this is also challenging for many organizations because you know as we've seen interacting with organizations as well as in organizations in which we've been members many organizations don't see this as a valuable activity page in terms of having their managers be coaches for their people. It's not a priority it takes time and you know, there's a variety of reasons for this. It could just be plain ignorance that thought maybe this isn't thought of in that organizational culture as something that managers need or should do and I think that's that's where we have to think about. What what is it that managers do and what time Expected of them within a given context and I would I would wager that if you are adopting this idea of manager as coach, then you've got to broaden your definition a little of what it means to be a manager. Right? And then so let's let's talk about what organizations can do to start. Okay, you've decided I'm going to go down this path. I buy it then I think this is valuable. I we have a list of key skills associated with effective managerial coaching. Could you read those spin off or so, you know, this again comes from the literature that we've cited here today and you know, these are some tough things things like listening analysis off interviewing observation communication and giving feedback setting clear expectations than some coaching behaviors like guidance facilitation inspiration job. There's a lot. Yeah, these are these are all the things that are hard to get managers to do what I thought but I thought they were soft skills. Chris soft skills. Anybody has been on LinkedIn learning or in in this space for a long time knows that there's whole like there's whole many chapters of many books devoted to listening. There's a whole trainings developed into analysis interviewing anybody's. Oh, yeah interviewing so easy. Oh my gosh, you know like it takes a long time to get to that place. Right and we're not just talking job interviewing. We're talking about finding assessing. What's really going on. Yeah. Are you are you punishing Martha for Bob screw up? Well, don't ask the right questions. You may not know and maybe punishments not even the right Paradigm to be using communication and giving feedback. Everybody talks about. Oh the annual birth. 4 Minutes review is so hard. Well, lots of times it's hard cuz the whole process and system is garbage and a lot of places but even where it's good managers will continue song struggled with getting feedback. Like you see these behaviors such as stonewalling or letting that person just kind of walk the plank on their own rather than hurting them back in and seeing if they can be salvaged, you know, these kinds of saying setting clear expectations hold trainings on that. So when so when you're looking at this how to build this death star that's fully functional. You got a lot to get one. And if your development program doesn't have that I mean think of that knowledge pyramid the training the education and their own type coach. There's not a whole lot of people that will kind of come to this on their own self development, right, especially if you've been in an organization where this was not the norm so if which is most places home Seems, you know, most of us learn how to be managers based upon how we were managed how we were LED that's how we start to lead and manage others. And if you come from an organization that I didn't value coaching or where you didn't have a manager or leader who really took special interest in you and tried to develop you and did all of these types of things like listening and observation and giving you feedback then it's going to be a challenge. This is why culture changes hard. Yeah because somebody could let's say you can paint the idea of that vision for where your company needs to be versus where wage is now everybody's like we see it. We love it. We want it but then they go look at their skill inventories each manager in the organization. Looks like I have no idea what I need to even go out there right and like your your Mackenzie slide deck is awesome as it could be or your most dynamic, you know, you get struck by lightning and you have a vision wage Where the skies opened up and you know what your business needs to be. Let's say it was just Divine inspired into your head. You can't, you know Executives talk about this all the time then I mean we hear this is Josh. I just can't get the traction that I need. So if you want to build this learning organization coaching organization, you've got this foundational work of knowledge and education you gotta do and you gotta do some coaching to get those, you know to kick-start you got a prime that pump before you have a self-sustaining managers as coaches turning out more managers as coaches turning off or managers of sketches, right? So, you know, I think there's a big component here of building this into how your organization even talks about leadership how your organism haven't thought about management. So right and you know, so this should be truly infused into every part of your Learning and Development for Managers from the dead. Moment that someone gets you know, even thought about as being a potential manager, they should be thinking about these ideas of coaching and how how to improve the performance of the people around them. You know another idea that I think is really powerful is this idea of a feedback environment in with and we've talked about that before in another episode will put a link to that in the show notes as well, which is you know, this idea that feedback doesn't just come from your boss. It can't it's not just necessarily your supervisor who can coach you some amazing organizations are ones in which coaching is thought of on the regular as coming from any direction. So, you know as as a supervisor having one of your people provide you some coaching can be helpful having you know. And peer-to-peer type coaching can also be a way to improve performance if it's all coming in good faith now and nobody likes the guy or gal who his like I only care about My managers feedback, you know if you guys can go drown in a lake cuz I'll be moving on up the ladder. You know that that kind of person is miserable to be around and people will remember that it may when you may win short term, but especially when you're younger in the field people remember if you were a jackwagon or not, they may move up higher in the ladder. You may need to hit them up for a job. Like I know I know what I know what you're about which is like this and let's keep going on that feedback organism orientation. But this idea of the high quality relationship where we offer LMX leader member exchange people come from all kinds of backgrounds. They come from all types of cultural contexts. They you know, some people come from broken homes that were horrible and they've never learned to really contextualize relationships. Well, you know, it's it's like, all right, it's Tit for Tat, you know, you give me this I'll give you that and it becomes less more FAQ. Transactional and stuff so I think organizations can even Define what a healthy good work relationship looks like within a certain cultural context faith in a given organization, right? Like these are things that you can spell out right for people so they can start to think about it get some coaching learning training around it off to even have those high quality relationships. Now this idea of feedback organism orientation that feeds into that as well. How do you get feedback if off the example can be don't you know, so many people just run with these things. You gotta be super careful about what you say, but our listeners are smart. So I'm going to trust you guys with this one. Maybe maybe you let you guys your team observed you receiving feedback from your manager, you know, Hey listen, these are the things I'm noticing on your team that you're not dead. Driving and okay, and then you asking some clarifying questions like you can model those or you could have like, you know a video of somebody displaying giving a quality wage giving feedback equality way to receive feedback. These are things that just have to be kind of launched within your organization when that's not the cultural norm. Right? And what's interesting is if you're an organization that really imagine that you really really want coaching to be part of your DNA as an organization and you really want to be able to do in your large organization going out that is is tricky because you know having some sort of top-down mandate and certain requirements and so forth starts to really turn it into something that could be very negative and actually starts to take a bunch of time and no one will do anyway. And so, you know mandatory Family Fun Time everybody hates that or turning it into just something that's like a morgue. Frequent performance appraisal that happens all the time, you know tell me whether or not you have coached your people five times this past quarter or whatever, right or it was once a year. Now. Let's have a bad five times a year exactly. Exactly. And so, you know a better way to go about this is to start with those. What are you trying to achieve and and I would argue that a good goal is we want to have high quality supervisor subordinate relationships that have high quality conversations in them about performance and I you know providing those tools and those and that education and some of that training around some of these coaching skills to people all along their Career Development. So, you know the first time maybe they get put in charge of of our people, you know, there's some some Education and Training around these types of skills, like listening and feedback giving and setting expectations. So you provide that if those times and you continue to provide that along Way so that people really start to get this idea of being a good coach as part of their managerial role. So, you know, you can't you can't make this something that is over burdensome and turns into some sort of engineered process because human relationships are Dynamic and fluid. Yeah and the coaching stuff. So we're all focused on managers and stuff here, But if somebody's going to be let's say you're going to be a Amazon web Cloud expert and you only want to be an expert you're not interested in moving up the chain right coaching still can be dynamic. So like well, let's talk about getting you some training on managing stakeholders. Let's coach how you managed stakeholders month going forward so that people have higher quality interactions with the IT department. So now that they have a higher level of trust that the IT department knows what they're doing and as the best interest of the org, And mind, you know, these are things this isn't only about like all right, what skills you need to do first, you're going to do your job well, and then we're going to promote you with no management skills to a manager position wage and it maybe if you're lucky will Coach you some more there. No, that's not that this is talking about what kind of behaviors skills knowledge. Do we want people to have faith sued and had display and cultivating notes, right? And there's some evidence to suggest that you know, the perception that you have as a manager are really important with regard to how you're going to coach others. And this this may to some degree indicate that some people might not be the best that coaching, you know, some interesting findings from that same article that we've been talking about the the steel mill and wolfeld article where they looked at this idea of feedback orientation. So feedback orientation is whether or not you actually value feedback for yourself if you think this whole feedback idea edging Good one and what they found in their paper was they found that managers who value feedback for themselves? So they have a high feedback orientation were viewed as better coaches as assessed through employee perceptions of the coaching behaviors. So, you know, that's interesting methodologically cuz it's saying okay. I rate myself pretty high. I really value Orient you my you know feedback. I have a high feedback orientation, but then you shouldn't of that other people are saying that people who do that have are better coaches, right and do a better job with this coaching relationship and creating this feedback environment. So that's an important piece here and what they also say in this study in the abstract. They they talk about how this study demonstrated that the coaching manager with higher feedback orientation is viewed as more effective than the co-manager with lower feedback orientation. And so that's an important component, you know, if we're going to kind of boil down some of these uh types of steps that an organization should take to promote It's managers as coaching or as coaches type of behavior, you know, so we talked about, you know, thinking more deeply and having a shared understanding about what being a manager is. That's the the most important thing to start as a foundational piece. Yeah, so it's interesting cuz when we do Executive coaching or just regular Consulting engagements, one of the the big pieces is well, I want young people to view me as competent more. I want them to have a positive view of me as an executive as a business leader or thought leader, you know, those kinds of things but one of the few things you can do to Super impact that is to have a feedback orientation, you know that here here the the subordinates are saying they had a pot more positive view of you just cuz you're open to feedback site. So don't be a numbskull like there's a nugget of gold for you. I mean often times new managers in particular and but we've come across people who are actually have name. A very relatively senior levels people who are you know, that they've you mean being a manager being a leader as being the person who knows what to do and being the person who gets stuff right? And I hope that you do have some competence and you do get stuff right? You do know some things well knowing what to do. Well not knowing what to do and being wrong all the time is not decided that he saw you want to be. All right, right, right how you know, but at the same time people need to be open to the idea of getting feedback and it's actually a sign of maturity of a manager or a leader to being open and being a little bit vulnerable to saying. Hey like I don't know everything I might screw up that some things I know what I know and I know what I don't know. I need you to tell me more about how I can improve or other types of things that we should do better as a team and when managers actively seek that feedback people actually tend to see them more positively they don't see it as some sort of dead. Big flaw that the manager has so open up those communication channels and actually seek feedback as a manager. It's a good thing for you. So having a shared idea of what being a manager entails some skills training around these different ideas of of what it takes to be a good coach as a manager and developing those high quality relationships some those are some very important components. If you as an organization want to run with his idea of managers as coaches. Yeah. It's a long journey. There's no Windex and three easy tricks. It'll get you but it's a journey worth going on as an org. So if you have remit, you're going to have to build some focus and organizational support around Ada managers as coaching model really around them any of this kind of stuff, you know, whatever you want to bite off in this space. And if you're an individual you gotta think hey, I need to keep focused and doing good on my job here. But if I wash Successful, I need to avoid derailment. I need to know how to manage people. I need to know how to set schedules, you know, make an inventory of the things that you're going to need to develop and start doing some personal development there. So then let's talk about some take away points for we wrap up sure. So the first one is that these ongoing high-quality conversations about performance are very important this differs from the performance review the performance appraisal. This is about having those ongoing high-quality conversations related to Performance. That's a key part of the idea of managers as coaches. So, you know one way to think about this whole idea is to differentiate this a little bit from mentoring and from the formal performance appraisal saying about being a manager also involves good conversations on a regular basis about performance. Yeah, the if you get to your performance and review and you're like what wage If the person you're given that review to is like that then you haven't done your job in those quality conversations along the way the great point to never be a surprise. What someone's getting in that formal performance. Yeah. I just think like this is a time to put a mark of where you are at a specific point in time. This is not I never view those as this is a particular time after some coaching or developmental like this guy's actually being rated according to a system. I want to set up everybody that I work with or manage to get an a dog right unless they're a jerk. So another takeaway point that managers need to take here is that they need to see the value in comb and receive some skills training and some practice you gotta be open to getting better yourself as a manager and realizing that you probably don't have all of these skills. We can all continually improve. These areas of Human Relationships human interaction listening feedback giving and so forth. And so, you know, you've got to have managers who actually buy into it can't be something that's forced upon them, which means you know programs can't be garbage. This is not where you go dumpster-diving for the cheapest vendor to help you at least when you're kicking it off, right? But once you kind of get it going maybe you can dial back I wouldn't go there but that's that whole thing of you can make it to where you can swim on your own but you're going to have to go deal with how people actually are not how you fantasize that they would be and develop a quality program. That's meaningful. You know, if anybody I use this example all the time then is if anybody's pushing a wheelbarrow with a trying a wheel And they look across the street and they see somebody with a circle wheel. They're going to knock the corners off their triangle. And so you're training and manager development programming needs to be so compelling that people that aren't displaying this cultural values and good faith coaching feedback behaviors and those kinds of things that you want to see have such a compelling reason to just knock the corners off the wheel. Right and a proper culture is the only way that any of this stuff worth right. Now. I'm half you have to have that tone that comes from your top leadership. But also those Norms that actually support these ideas you have to have leaders throughout the organization who understand that being a coach is part of being a manager and this is what that entails having a shared understanding of that is so important because otherwise you have a new manager who tries these things off and if it's something that's not supported by the rest of the organization then it's it's not going to go well and they're going to stop doing it and it's not going to persist so culture is very very important. Yeah, I remember For being a kid and had some retail jobs and I was just treated like any other retail numskull and I just thought that was a deal you gotta do really well take the punches from Bad culture home and just drive drive ahead like some Wicked dark elf and like the worst Cutthroat culture ever like know and then but then I you know, I was started being interested. I actually did get mentored by some people that I had turned around businesses and stuff when I was in undergrad. I worked at a retail music store type thing and they'd take me aside and start and I was like damn this is so interesting. So you start reading Publications and people say, oh, well, you know, it's very important for top leadership the focus on culture and I remember being a kid being like, what are you talking about? This is dog eat dog, you know spear in the back. We're going to carve away success in business is like a giant, you know, King of the Hill competition man was I ever wrong and I was glad that people help calibrate that for me off. When I was younger, but you can start to see well wise culture important. Well, first of all existentially you should want a good culture. That's how people thrive just on your own. But if you're one of those people that gave the wrong perspective like I did when I was younger you actually can't do anything in the world of business life or anything really well without a good culture. So, you know, just like you don't plant a garden and garbage soil those of you guys with a Biblical background. I love that allegory of a seed planted in good soil grows. Well, but why would you spend your time sowing a seed and garbage soil? And that's exactly what you do when you're trying all these efforts of coaching or maybe it bring in somebody to do a seminar and you're like why is nothing taking why is not getting it? A good place to look is your culture there. Yeah. No, that's a very powerful metaphor of you know, having the good soil of your organization really is your culture and the tone that you set about these types of ideas in these types of priorities. So managers as coaches, u-shape everything from how somebody comes into that org to how they grow up and often times how far I'll go in life, honestly, right and what I like to say and the research supports this as well is that managers are often times the windows through which everyone experiences the organization them window through which you decide whether or not the organization is fair or unfair whether or not the organization is a great place to work or not. Whether or not the organization is a place you would recommend to your friends or not. And then for you as a manager you have this enormous responsibility and a huge opportunity to really do great things with your team as well as for the organization. And so, you know, I hope that by our conversation today we've Thursday About this idea of managers as coaches and provided some ideas for organizations out there who are trying to move down this path with some ideas around culture with some ideas around specific skills that need to be trained in built in some ways to move that forward in a way that's actually going to be sustainable and not just kind of a a, you know, a slogan or something that you you talk about. So, you know specifically we talked about how coaching is a critical part of that Performance Management piece what the side Meat means even to have coaches in the workplace how managers can be coaches in the workplace and then about how organizations can truly promote coaching Behavior? Thanks for listening to the Indigo podcast. If you like this podcast, please consider helping us by rating us on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen telling your friends about us off having us on your podcast or mentioning us on social media. Our website is www.indigo.com where you can access more information about us and this episode, Thanks again, and we look forward to talking with you again soon.

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Corporate Training Doesnt Have to Stink!

The Indigo Podcast

52:50 min | Last month

Corporate Training Doesnt Have to Stink!

"Welcome to the INDIGO PODCAST, and exploration of human flourishing at work in beyond I'm Ben Baron of INDIGO ANCHOR and Cleveland State University and I'm for seven of indigo anchor for more information. Please visit us at www dot indigo podcasts dot com. Hey said today we're gonNA talk about corporate training does it have to stink? That's right and I think most of us have probably been through some pretty stinky corporate training, your been through some training that doesn't or that's bad. Yeah. Not only have I been through it. I've had to conduct it myself and you're looking at this stuff and you're like cat but. Are Guilty we're saying it doesn't have to stink. But with all the stinky training, want the good training feel left out. It's like, what does this this joke about Abraham Lincoln was visiting a jail. A true story I don't know it was in this Abraham Lincoln. Joke Book I had as a kid and he's visiting all these criminals and you know it's like Oh what what are you in here? I didn't do it. I didn't do it. You know the next guy I didn't do it and he gets his Co. Yeah. I did it and you know I gotta serve my time. He's like we gotta get this guy out of here. and. That's great. So yeah, we're GONNA talk about that training the dozen stink that's out there and we're GonNa talk about what training is and why it matters retirement some ways to design training so that it actually helps people learn and we're GonNa talk about some key takeaways for people, leaders, and organizations. So let's kick it off with the first topic, which is what is training why does it matter? So in your own words Chris, Everett what what's training about? Well. Okay. So I think about because I come out of it. Right I think about this in the Knowledge Management Pyramid which people should go google at the bottom of the pyramids information right and then on top of that is knowledge right and then you get you turn that into data right or I forget how it goes but you're you're you're at the base level data right and like if a tree fell in the would would anybody here it if there is information that nobody picked up and taught what anybody learn it Probably not right. So training is about helping people home current skills. So this is stuff that they can do to different levels of quality or efficiency or something or to develop all new skills right. So it's different than taking college course on civil war history, right because that would be getting the information. You College you get a bunch information kit, a bunch of information that may towards your senior years or masters. You'll learn to start putting that information together and start you know maybe drawing conclusions using it to help you make decisions, those kinds of things, right so there's a great article that it will post a link to in the show notes from her McGinnis and Kurt Krieger they wrote this a couple years ago, but it's still very relevant and it's called benefits of training and development for individuals and teams organizations in society, and this was in the annual review of psychology, and in that article, they provide some good definitions here. So what they write as. Of Training is as follows and I quote the systematic approach to affecting individuals, knowledge skills and attitudes in order to improve individual team and organizational effectiveness right. So in that definition, you can see this focus on the organization and doing something for the organizations of objectives so to speak. So if you're an organization, you probably should figure out what kinds of knowledge skills and abilities do we want to or attitudes do we want to effect among our people development on the other hand is and I quote again, systematic efforts affecting individuals. Knowledge or skills for purposes of personal growth or future jobs and or roll. So it's a little bit longer term focused. It's not necessarily about specific things that are going to improve the team's effectiveness right now but that's what training us and training matters. Training is an important thing. We'll go out there on the record as saying this, and we'll have some caveats to kind of training as a as a panacea for all organizational ills but what are some reasons why training matters? Chris well, let me just say first of all. You GotTa have a concept of training. It's the training doesn't I mean it goes off accidentally all the time while I guess I'll show fills in how to do this thing right? Right. But if you know when in that definition, it's the systematic approach. If you want to achieve these positive outcomes, you need to be disciplined not only near thinking but in your planning your execution, you're reviewing and improving your attempts because you're talking about, why does it matter what Dagang Supports? Higher Job, performance, right and everybody's like well I I wish we just can't get good help around here. Which is kind of a translation of performance out of people in my organization is not where I want it, which sounds a lot less numb scully, and that's what we're aiming for. Right is not the be numskulls and to you want better performance out of your employees well, trainings, GonNa play a key part in it right and you know you can. Go through the the literature and find many studies and empirical support theoretical support for the idea that having a more robust set of human capital in your organization the knowledge and skills of your people that that is a good thing for your organization and it's actually a good thing for society overall and this happens Lotta Times throughout organizations and that's kind of. Another thing that that I think is a benefit of training but if done well, and of course, we're that's the big. If here it good training supports higher job performance good training can be good for satisfaction and morale and commitment. You know just in general people like to master skills they it feels good. You know. So for example Chris you know you. You take on a couple guitar students once in a while and you know as they learn stuff does it seem to be something that they enjoy? Yeah. No, that's that's why I keep a few students. Now I don't have to make money off of teaching lessons but I devoted so many. Gosh. Thousands of thousands of hours and playing professionally and stop that. Fulfilment continuing to my skills but then I also keep myself sharp by sharing it with other people and so generally my students you know they'll come and for an hour or two lesson, and then it's all right. Here's the next thing she got to work on come back when you're ready for the next lesson but watching those Aha moments I mean it's probably why I enjoy what we do so much with organizations and coaching individuals were continually seeing people because I think Ben would you agree it started off with us be like, oh my gosh. Yes. This piece of information or knowledge or ability is amazing Gosh I can't wait to go. It's like when you need something good here try this. This is amazing Right right. You know another reason why training really matters is that you know the the work environment business in general industries technology these are always changing and you need to keep up as an organization unless you're just going to continually hire new skills in by just firing the people who don't have the skills you need and getting new folks all the time at have a big credit card. Yeah that's just not sustainable. So what you've gotta do as an organization if you want to keep up with the changing external environments is you've gotTa Invest In training and you've gotTa help your folks continually develop their skills continually develop their knowledge and and also you know their attitudes in order to be more. Productive as members of your organization. So that's another benefit. Yeah, and you gotTA carve timeout for this now and and the thing is there's just somewhat structural and somewhat the Numb scullery thanks cogs wealth that word. But the NUMB scullery that we see out there where it's like okay I'm charted or a new manager and their preparations not ready for the kind of triage are GonNa have to do when like now they have a hundred things on their plate rather than to. But it's okay we're GONNA hire this guy. All right. Here's the one job you gotta do go do it and hey, you need to perform better. Hey, stop stinking and there's no help for that person and then that person let's say they come in they thrived the best one on it and they WANNA move up within their organization. Sorry. We we just want you to be a brick in the wall my see from everywhere and how they do call center. Call Center training. And all this kinds of stuff you know on one hand we say in our society, you can move on up. And then on the second hand, we have whole swath of people saying. You should buy into the system. It's a good idea. But by the way no training and you're going to have to like stab kill and stomp boot stomp your way up to the top here I I don't know if that's the best that's not the kind of society I prefer to live in and it's not something because one of the things as a manager that you gotta develop as the ability to develop others. Right right and if you don't, then you're putting yourself at risk for derailing as a leader. You know organizations spend quite a bit of money on training according to the Association for Talent Development and we'll post a link to their organization. That's kind of the global organization that is devoted to the the function and the craft of training and development according to they do the state of the industry thing every year and Their most recent one suggested that organizations spend on average about one, thousand, two, hundred, ninety, nine dollars per employee per year on training. So about thirteen, hundred bucks per year on training have you multiply that out of over workforce? That's quite a bit So you gotta make it worth it and don't have stinky training. You want training that actually influences learning behavior. Kinda, different approach toward training that I have in you have Chris you know as management consultants coming from the field of management from the field of organizational psychology. We want training to actually change behavior and I contrast this a little bit ingest with the lawyer approach. So I love attorneys. I. Have a deep respect to fascinates with the law I've considered going to law school many times myself. My wife tells me I'm too old to do that but. That would be a terminal degree for you Ben. Finish it because you're white kills you. Exactly yeah. But. But it's interesting when you do talk with attorneys about training a lot of times, it's about risk mitigation and saying, have you done your sexual harassment training? Have you done this type of training in order essentially, Cya right to have some sort of record of someone having done the training so that in the event that they do some numb scullery if they start acting like a Jackwagon in your organization. Trained you know we had now you're fired. Exactly. Setting you up for success I mean a hostile relationship like listen. We're going to do these things. You'd pay attention and write all this down and here's your checklist because if you cross that line about a year Outta here, and that's the difference between compliance and really engagements and you know I'm sure that there are there are attorneys other amazing training and support amazing training they they're smart enough. You know lers are pretty smart. They get what I'm talking about here that you actually want people to change for the right reasons, and there is an element of risk mitigation that you do lots of you know have records that you've trained done done your employee safety training and other types of things. But our approach here in this podcast in our approach, just as as individuals. When we go out and work with organizations, we want training that actually changes behavior, and so let's move now. Let's hone on that for a second how many times we got in and had an exact say, how do you get people to stop or to be more more to right and these are all behavioral questions? We don't ever get like how do you get employees to not a change a light bulb or to log into their system and enter a proper Accounting Entry. We we never get those questions like how do you get and it's always they're always behavioral questions yet when we look at their training, their development, all that kind of stuff. There's next to no behavioral. Pieces there it's all that hard quantity which is fine. You gotta have training hard quantity stuff but on one the easiest things to do right every I seldom see somebody trained at a task level event struggle to accomplish that they wouldn't be an organization. But they do struggle with the behavioral yet they don't address it, right? Yes. So an example, there would be you know I training p someone on something technical right versus training someone on you know I hate this term but a lot of people use it the soft skills you know the skills are really very hard. You know I it's. Things like leadership skills and how do we be more adaptable as people and as teams? How do you develop a team? I'll those types of things can be really tricky, but certainly, training can help at the same time. I do WANNA throw a cautionary note out there because you and I come across organizations all the time that come at us with some sort of issue that they have and say, and they define the problem in terms of the the solution right by saying, Hey, we need some training. It's like how you really need some training. Centers go. and and sometimes the training. Component of that organization needs however, organizations very frequently take training as his kind of knee jerk reaction to something that either went poorly or some sort of incident. They're like, Hey, we need to do some training. You know that's GonNa fix things well, maybe that'll fix some things, but it's not necessarily going to fix everything. So you know bad training is also worse than no training at. All right. So we're focusing here on how to make. Training that doesn't stink. So maybe we can turn our attention there too. You know how can we design training? So it actually helps people learn and do stuff differently. Well. Yeah. So you know the hard skills stuff I think most people have and you can have some on the job for that kind of stuff. But those other stuff that people are missing that they tend to come to us for his there needs to be compelling why? And if you're you're why is so you don't get fired well, I guess that's pretty compelling but that's like you know, hey, kid go clean your room where I'm GonNa beat you. So that kid may do it because they don't WanNa get beat. But what the heck kind of family life is that right now, what kind of Org life is at? So why are they learning this? What's in it for them? Like you know any time that we've conducted a training and people are really interested in the material. It's you know they're asking quality questions they're staying after they're. They're displaying that thing that every org wants it struggles to capture called engagement right and it's starting off with a compelling. Why? Why are we doing this? Yeah. You know just to take like a topic that's near and dear to our how our hearts, which is the topic of organizational agility for example Ryan. So I wrote a white paper with our friends, Scott Bible for the Society for industrial. Organizational Psychology. Agile and agility and why it matters and so forth, and in that you know as kind of some final points, one of the things was like, how do you? What do you? What do you do to get going if you want this in your organization and the first thing that we put was you you to start the conversation about why people have to understand what the compelling reason is in order to see some relevance in the training so I completely agree with you there you know when it comes to designing training. There are a bunch of different models for this and this'll be interesting I think for some of our people out there in the world of organizational psychology because these actually are oftentimes more talked about in organizational development fields or in the instructional design world but can be very helpful for us to keep in mind. So one of the more popular ones what's called the Addie model add I e, and that stands for analysis design development implementation, and evaluation as being one way to approach training design, and we're going to walk through. Those steps kind of in slightly different way 'cause I like like the way that we're GonNa talk about it a little bit more we're going to. Kind of unpack that for for our listeners here today. Yeah. So this is coming back to that thing that that training needs to be systematic. Right. Do this you know I at a whim, and then I also think you know we're GonNa talk about just conducting block of instruction type of thing. But if you're really looking for the outcome training needs to be like, do they have information? Has it been taught to them. Are we observing it out in the wild right? So we can, and then are we coaching out in the end so if you wanted that holistic thing that I think would probably come under more the definition of learning right or that kind of learning organization growing organization that kind of thing you really gotTa have more than but here we're. Just focusing on kind of conducting this block of instruction right and the first place is start step number. One is a needs assessment. This is where you've got to figure out what kind of training is needed and the sounds obvious. However, organizations don't do this frequently they they will see training that looks like something that they kind of want and they'll just go with it. The. Danger with that is you could end up with some sort of training that everyone maybe everybody knows it right everybody all they all know what you're training them on it and then they're just bored and a waste of money. You know if you ever do that like I, say you go into an organization to provide some training and there wasn't a sufficient needs assessment upfront if everybody's looking at you like, oh my gosh, we all already know this. You know what happened right? There was not sufficient needs assessment and they're kind of three parts of that and the first one is figuring out what the organization needs right? What are the? Kind of those strategic needs. So Chris what might be some ways how would you figure out what the organization Kinda needs? Well, I think there's different types of surveys and interviews that you can do but that's one of the ways that we kind of assess if there's some maturity in that. Hey. So what do you think the top three training needs for your organization are right now and if somebody's like well, we have this list of trainings that we do. Well, then we know that like, Hey, we need to hone in on helping them assess what the organization needs right now I can't just be interviews though right because you know one. You can't just be like some kind of assessment or survey one. Those assessment surveys need to be done designed by somebody that knows what they're doing. Right. But something's better than nothing. But then also going and doing some interviews with key stakeholders and finding like, Hey, where are the gaps because you you survey the whole organization the majority of people are the individual contributors now and it'll skew your results that, oh, I think I need this and this, but you need to tie what the lay people think with the direction of where the company's going. Is there a strategy of entering a new market have even done some discovery of what are those training pieces? What are the skills we need tomorrow? Okay. We got a good handle of what we need today. We got a good program, but are we really future looking for where we might be going? You're exactly right and you know it's funny when I pose questions sometimes to my students it takes a while to figure this out but it's like, Hey, you got to figure out what your strategy is where the organization is heading exactly like you. Said Talk to the senior leaders, and hopefully they have a clue of the organization is added but the first step of needs assessment is what are we? What are the skills? What are the? What's the knowledge what needs to happen in terms of the behaviors of our workforce for us to succeed tomorrow not just today and figuring that out is is definitely the first step. So needs assessment start with assessing the organization. You also gotta look perhaps at the actual job, it's a specific type of training devoted at a certain type of job within. The organization see what that job entails also looking at the people, right. So understanding who your audience is and you know most of the times, you don't have this luxury. But if you're if you can doing some sort of pre assessments can be really powerful right? If you can assess their knowledge or skill level before you do the training, then you can tailor. Okay. This is kind of the level at which we need to deliver, and you could also if you do that, if you have that pre test data rights you that pre. Or Pre. Intervention data. I should say then you can look at afterwards right if as long as you can link everything up, you can say look we did this training and this is the result right? So that can be helpful. Cultures so important to that piece because people front at work. Everybody wants to look like they know everything do everything and Gosh darn looked goodness soup. Right or pants dress or whatever. Right? So. If, you give an assessment to a bunch of people that has tons of questions. They don't know if you don't have a culture that allows us to stretch and reach, you might not get the results that you really want. Somebody may walk out of the test. Because, they don't want to display that they don't know those kinds of things. So be careful and how you're designing this pre interventions because it can have a negative cultural impact if you don't handle with care that's a very good point you know in the next step. So let's say you do this needs assessment you figure out what the organization needs. You figure out what the people need, what the job entails. Then it's about setting some learning objectives. This is about trying to figure out you know what types of things should the people who go through this training be able? To do after they go through and and we we started off with learning objectives at the beginning of this episode got to succeed today you're GonNa what is training and why does it matter ways to design training? So that helps people learn right I. mean these aren't fully fleshed out like this. These are not learning objectives for a official training program, but we're still using those kinds of concepts. Yeah and I guess recommendation that I would have for anyone who's trying to write some learning objectives or come up with them is you know you want to avoid kind of the lame. Words that sometimes are used with these right. You want to avoid the ones that don't have clarity aren't things you can observe can't measure them right. So things that oftentimes you'll see learning objectives like well, we want people to learn XYZ well, I I get it but that's not an easy thing to necessarily kind of vague right or appreciate or understand or know what can be even better is to say things like you know we want people to be able to demonstrate EX WIRES E we won't be able to outline this list. These be very specific in your learning objectives. Because then you can tailor all of your training design to those those objectives and you can also kind of preview of coming attractions. You can also look at how an assessment later to see if they actually acquired that knowledge or skill is that they don't you're going to have to go back and change your training, right? Yeah, exactly. So set those learning objectives make sure that there are ones that are clear that they're measurable are observable, and then you can start to design your training activities. Right. So a lot of times I see organizations, I see trainers who just jump to. kind of this step or maybe they don't even go this. Training or like, Hey, that looks good. This. is where you can start to actually design with the training involves and there's lots of different tools you can use. How are you going to convey this information? How are you going to get people to engage with the material? You know oftentimes we kind of default to the lecture, but there's lots of different ways that you can. You can teach people and. I think a kind of a combination approach is usually better than just one singular approach. Yeah. Games can be good I. Know we've got several organizations that actually use episodes of the indigo podcast. Ellen de you know like it's actually part of the way they develop. Leaders within their organizations which you know. The Dead Sea idea of just getting away from the droning lectures somebody up front with A. Bad powerpoint just reading the slides people looking at their phones and fallen asleep you know engaging content and this all comes under that training design right which would google some of that stuff. Good training designs take a look. You know if you were build a house then like, yeah, I. Guess You know you just put a connex out and it would meet the standards of House. But. If you really want to build a house, you can actually work with an architect because you've seen so many cool houses and ideas. That's the whole thing with pinterest. You Start Pin in those different ideas. While if you're in training design start pinning those ideas for things that you saw on training light, maybe talk to your friends. What were some cool trainings you went to? Start binding those kinds of things, and if you WANNA be relevant and hip in this space with the cool. Ken. So to speak, just make sure that you have a pulse on those emerging trends kind of what they look like. So you're you're content stays relevant. You don't WanNa be like a nine, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, six youtube video. There wasn't even Youtube and eighty. Right and I don't care how old you are people don't like being bored. We just don't, and this is actually something we discussed a little bit was your prepping for this episode was ideas around adult learning theory and how different it actually is from how children learn right I. Think I don't care how old you are I think having variety and making things relevant and interesting and exciting. We all appreciate that I don't think there's a magical age reach which is like, Oh, now I want relevance. Now, I'd like to not be bored to tears. So I think as Corny bad joke is better than a speech without any jokes. You know like at least taken at bat on making your stuff hip right by. Yeah. So once you design all these different training activities should be, of course, linked to your learning objectives saying, okay. Learning objective number one, how are we going to help you know with this this item? Hasn't training activities. Then you WanNa look at a sequencing of those training activities and how you might put those in a logical order that makes sense that is easy to follow you know, and then just really tactical things like how long is this going to take and maybe people white want to take a little break at this point and go you know drink a cup of coffee or hit the restroom like that type of stuff is actually really important when you're designing training then you want to go back and try to revise some of your design details. So kind of hone what you've already. Come up with some ideas get some feedback from those people who might now right maybe even talk to some of the actual training participants, some of your target audience or the people who are very familiar with them, and then you can start to build a what's called a training map and this is just a simple. Document I find this to be really helpful especially when I'm doing a training for the first time just to a little table that says, okay here's where learning objective like column one right column to hear some activities that what I'm going to do to help support that learning objective and then call them three my estimation of how much time it's GonNa take just to keep yourself on track so you're removing Through all of your learning objectives in a logical way. So, if you're out there purchasing training as of as a as an organization and vendors coming at you, this is the type of thing I would want to you know encourage you to look for look for what are your learning objectives tell me how this all links together. All right. So we've talked about needs assessment setting your learning objectives, designing your training activities, sequencing, those training activities revising those designed details. The last one is evaluation evaluating bat result. This is one that oftentimes gets missed I. Think Chris Yeah I. Mean you're tired after the gauntlet of going through again getting it agreed aligning with the strategy probably. So many meetings you WanNa Puke if you have to even think about another meeting about the training. Then you then you finally I a Beta, now you gotta go evaluate and put the final sheen. This is what separates the pros from the hacks right as evaluate the total result like what is the reaction of the people that are sitting in there? You know sometimes, you could even put up a little. You Know Cameron like film participants or something while delivering you should film if you if you're about to deliver and you just did a train the trainer and you're concerned about the training that's going across your enterprise level organization, you want to have some way of evaluating the way your trainers are delivering, right? Yeah. Well, and this is also an interesting topic for. You know the the outside vendor who's coming in to do training for you. Because you think about it, you're an organization, you purchase training from someone from the outside they probably want to continue doing training with your organization. There is a I would say there's there's an incentive for them to not do the evaluation piece. You know because they don't want there to be any possibility of there being negative reactions and they WANNA, keep doing business with you. If there a great vendor though they will have something built in to do this right so that they can continue to deliver something of value and ready to stone them like like you see some negatives you just make. Do we need a calibration? There's I see a lot of throwing the baby out with the bathwater of Oh. We'll let the vendor take the fall. Well, one that's not cool. That's somebody else's family and and hard work and effort But the second thing is like any nothing's perfect and so you need to be more pragmatic and how you're evaluating like, okay. We just need to spruce this on the second. Iteration will will change us one piece. Yeah on. So the most common way to look at evaluation of training and people have critiques of this Love to get, we'll do an episode with one of these folks who does this a lot more and has some ideas around other ways to evaluate training. But one of the more common ways is the the Kirkpatrick levels of training evaluation, and so the first one as Chris already mentioned is reactions. So you get people's reactions. You say, you know what did you think of this training? That's the easiest type of data collect it's not. NECESSARILY VAT informative other than I liked it. I didn't like it but it is a level of training evaluation. The next one no is learning and this is where. You would actually assess whether or not they learn something from the training. Now it's a little tricky if you only assess this via test or survey or something afterwards because you don't know if that's due to the training or something I knew already if you didn't do a pre-test so it's it's oftentimes great to have your your assessment, your Nita's be tied to your. To your actual evaluation afterwards or something thereof and if it's If it's a long training maybe you have some intermediate test as thing. So Vincent Month Training Program don't wait till the end that's too much. It'll be hard to parse. Yeah. Yeah. Because then you calibrate right. And then the next level is behavior. So seeing people actually act in different ways based upon the training. Now, the requirement here though is that you have to wait until people go back to their jobs you have to give it some time and you might, for example, get evaluations from people supervisors say have you noticed that you know are people doing anything differently or? This that's that's the behavioral and then results level. Is usually referring to more organizational team level results. You know we did sales training did sales actually go up? That's results level. Other variables that can come into play there by that is you know kind of a a higher level of training evaluation. So okay Let's talk a little bit and there's some kind of six steps to consider when designing training. Let's talk about trading delivery a little bit. Yeah. So just in case you thought that, Hey, this is your cohort yet still pilot mode. Now now you have something that's been evaluated, pre-test, baited designed, sequenced all that stuff. Now, you're actually ready for prime time that this can be an ongoing piece of training that can go into your order I one. Don't, be, boring case. Nobody likes it. We just don't like the in bore Boorda. Regardless of our age especially for busy and maybe we didn't really want to be at the training to begin with like we it needs to be engaging people So another way to do that is to keep it focused on the learner keep it relevant to things that they actually can use in their job, a whole `nother topic, which we're not really gonNA touch on too much today but you know I think is relevant is this idea of training transfer? You know so you can learn a bunch of stuff, but do you actually take back to to the job and having a be stuff? It's really relevant that can't can help that can support. There's other things too but that's one thing. and. Then we already mentioned use a variety of methods. Right? You know if you put out a bunch of stuff say, Hey, you must read this before you come to the training some people might read it. A lot of people might not. Maybe even provide time during the training for people to read something short used videos, lecture activities. You know various things as in teams, you can do presentations. There are myriad ways that you can get people involved and engaged, and I encourage you to explore them all as as part of your kind of tool kit that you use when designing training and one of the things that I like to use it. I don't see a whole lot of people do is like Org. Fit? So, lots of times like I'll go in like with agile transformations right everybody knows how to scrum they understand the agile methodologies but then there's something in the organization that prevents them from executing on. There's this cognitive dissonance like wait a minute I was told that character and integrity this I go to my job and I'm asked to do this thing that doesn't have character and integrity and and you don't want to. Paint the pig. Out a reality right and so then, and here's the other thing if you have crap training if you have stinky training. People are just going to expect more stinky training, their expectations. They're you know one of my things that we get on our kids report card when they were like in kindergarten first grade was ready was today at ready to learn day if you want the people in your organizations, show up at your training ready to learn. It. You can't have this pantheon of bad training that they've already been to that. They just expect garbage. Their minds are already shutdown that's going to be hard to turn that cultural dynamic route. But then on the other side culture or fit of your training, make sure that your own organizations living up to the values, the skills, the abilities, those kinds of things that you're. Saying that you're expecting from your training that you're giving. Yeah great points got to have that fit their. You know another tool that you know we can explore future episodes is yet you have using games, and so there's a whole host and kind of this burgeoning area of research and thought around how various types of training can be gamified. So to speak I, we'll get an expert on here to talk more about that, but you can't even use simple games to teach things, and I'm reminded of a little session that I had the pleasure of being a part of about ten years ago or so. Where this guy named theology and theology that's that's short for a very long name. Yagi is this kind of legend in the instructional design training delivery type of field, and we'll put a link to his website, but his idea is that. Anything that you're teaching to adults can be taught with a game and anything that you teach to adults should be taught with the game and so he has a bunch of free games on his website and I think he probably has you can pay him or his organization to provide you with other games. But I think the idea I don't know if that's necessarily true. It's kind of empirical question whether or not. You can teach everything with the game but I think there's some value there in thinking about how you can have interactive. Engaging experiences with people that help them learn a concept yeah. Because it it comes out of the realm of the mind like I could spend twenty years lecturing you about boxing and we'd say this all the time. Well, here's a book on boxing get in the Ring Jaguar again you know. Like, we can go through. We could just you know look at Youtube video with all kinds of punches and and dodges review famous fights, and you'd have such as years went by you'd have such a detailed knowledge of watching boxing, but you'd had next to nothing next to nothing about what it feels like to take a bunch and recover. And how how it actually works when you're against an opponent and real time games help you do a bit of that rehearsal that's another role playing rehearsals. You know if you can go to an element of performing that task within a job environment like cool. Now we're GONNA go simulate the job environment do it all right now we're GONNA come back and learn. All right. What did we learn games? All these things are just solidifying that functional learning. There's probably a really detailed science term for what I'm talking about but that gets you to done on do the people have mastery of this You know issue right right. So what I'm taking from what you were just saying is that if I'm sitting on the couch playing call of duty. That I'm not actually serving my country. I won't even even have you said, you'd go I. I'm not GonNa put a M16 in your hand and head over to Afghanistan with you know way buddy you gotta gauntlet of training you're going to have to do and demonstrate reiten. That's right. You know. I'm laughing because in the Navy I don't know if we still have this for a while we had an online training on how to assemble this assemble and reassemble a weapon like an m four Don't do it every day right but it was funny but it was so hard because like you know but you know having gone through both doing it doing the online trading of how to take apart this weapon and put it back together and then actually doing it like learn way better is actually doing it. You know with a piece of metal in your hand. Yeah. So anyway, let's move on from there. We've talked a little bit here about what trading is what matters talk about ways to design training so that it doesn't stink and so actually helps people learn now move on to some specific key takeaways for people, leaders and organizations so. What are some good takeaways for people here at the individual level like listen, you can't control what quality year find yourself in a job and organization you can't control your just a person, right but one of the things you can do is you can actively engage with the materials start riding at some point. If you move up the ladder, right it, which you WANNA move up the ladder if that's something that's in your heart right right down this is what went well, what didn't engage actively even with crap training if you're the only person that alright on Molin and you're not having a bad attitude that's gonNA stick out to people that are observing. Gee that was really garbage training, but ben was paying attention taking notes and didn't complain. Right right yeah. I mean. I've done a lot of training taught a lot of classes and you know if you have one person especially that person has. Various characteristics of leadership and people kind of like that person if that person starts turning on the trainer and starts Oh, this is garbage. Right about it. Then you know you can really start to make the experience negative even if it was well designed training and so don't be that person be positive participant and hey, if if you're in training that stinks, it's not going well, and if you have the ability, you know this is actually an opportunity for you to stand out if you can try to help improve what's going on volunteer to teach some sections of of whatever the the learning about and. Try to provide some good feedback to help improve it. These are key opportunities for you, and I think that you know just by kind of saying Oh this training stinks that just absolves yourself responsibility no, that's not being a leader. There's no leadership in that statement right year just a non helpful scumbag right. Now, I think true. It'll jackwagon but you know and if it's endemic and your vp or CEO, maybe you can stand up and be like I'm tired of our training stinking sir. Well, then go but then you gotta do something about it. So if you're an individual, this is a great time to be like, Hey, you know I. Think I can conduct that block and training and maybe improve our materials. Do you mind? People generally be like man, you can make it better shirk. You know we got so much on our plate. This is a way to show that you're actively engaged in the organization and you're going to be better than other numskulls because you're going to think about the addie process that we're and the stuff that we're teaching a here thinking about that process on how you'll help improve that and how you're going to share your knowledge with others. Right. Another thing at the individual level about trainees this is just a great opportunity for you to really get some exposure and experience by helping to teach helping to. Onboard New People those types of trainings can be really great for you professionally, and it also helps you master new material. It's it's fascinating. You know you think about your work with Guitar Students Chris learning is one thing how to do things yourself when you try to teach it to another person that's another level altogether, and that can really start to solidify the learning for yourself. So what are some key takeaways for leaders in organizations? With regard to training? Well, this is where if you're at the manager senior manager director on a roll level, right, you're not going to be able to do all that training yourself. Well, maybe in a smaller organization, you can't, but you have a vested interest in the quality of the training that your team receives. So you need to make yourself a partner with not a hostile agent to partner with the learning and development or HR whoever handles the WHO comes in and trains how designed that training you need to work with them. To. Develop meaningful learning objectives and other things that because this is going to determine the quality as well. I'M NOT GONNA say existential quality but what kind of learning and the functioning of your team on key skills and abilities that you're going to need to push organization forward and straight your quality as a leader right now I think you should do is a leaders look out for your people and make sure that they're getting training that they need training that actually helps them and training that doesn't stink. You don't have to tolerate this as a leader you. Should be demanding and expecting and supporting good training for your people. You know another thing that you can do is to make sure that you know people on your team are able to train others and that they know how to do that. This is a great way to develop people's leadership skills. As a stretch sinement you know to help people develop their own skills is a train other people, and that's just a really great thing that you can do for your folks. Yeah and then as a leader, you need to have meaningful way to evaluate the quality of training. That you're teams received. So don't just be like well, I think this is garbage you need to have some quantitative way. So when you go to have that conversation with your training people within your, Oregon say, Hey, listen based on the the atty framework or whatever. You know this is just me saying I don't like you or that teacher this is you know this is a quantitative evaluation of what's going and look here's how I'm capturing how my teams performing after your training. Right. It's it's not there and here's the other thing. It's also a lot of people don't now more mature enterprise organizations will say they'll has some kind of learning management system that can measure how many people have been trained, how well they did or how. That, works in the space was telling me I can tell all my senior leaders just click through. This is a forty minute course. It takes the lay people forty minutes they just click click click click click. I did your training and it's like the people learning and development not only do they know that you click through the training real fast but they can see when the lack of behavioral change what you're doing that you want didn't give a rip about it and that you just pencil whipped it. Team, or team severance as a leader. Even if you feel that way just know that people can see that that's going to be bad for your brand. Back, to your team, you gotta have a Quantitative Way to evaluate that quality and then capture the learning. So you can say listen I need to get three of my new recruits into this class and it happening two years from now the next time you're offering it doesn't work for mayor Y- be able to have those strategic conversations. Yeah. I would just encourage leaders to also when they're thinking about evaluating trending to focus more on the learning and the behaviors and the results versus just reactions reactions are helpful I mean people probably should have a positive reaction whereas helpful sometimes however, sometimes, as you would say, you gotta eat your asparagus. I've been through some training in my life especially on the military side that that wasn't pleasant but I did learn things. You know I'm thinking in particular about the time that I became a certified Oleo Resin Capsicum, a trainer, which is pepper spray, right? So I got. A part of that trading you get sprayed in the face with pepper spray. Then you have to run around and like fight people and it is not. All Be This trainer one chick three not at. The traders got the spray you in the face but anyway, yeah, it was so not pleasant but you really do learn a lot going through that process. So sometimes, you got years Barrett, stink Galileo conducted the not the center of the universe training and then spent decades hiding so he didn't get killed. I. You know as a CEO as a senior executive out there I. Think you gotTa make sure that. The development function knows the strategy of your organization. This helps with that initial phase of needs assessments so that they know where the organization is headed and a good excuse in the HR L. D. function is going to say, Hey, I know have a knowledge of of of where the organization is headed and now my from my perspective I need to be thinking about what kinds of knowledge and skills do I need to start making sure I have in the workforce and is that something I buy in terms of hiring new people or is that also? Something that I should be a building within my organization through training and development. So make sure that that's going on at the organizational level. You know I think there's also the need here to make sure you're having quality training. How does have a good training audit half some metrics behind these things to yeah. You guys need to know what's going on. So if you're if you're a high level exact and you're not familiar with trading and all that kind of stuff you need to go just like go do a lunch and learn with the Ellen de. People. Some of them will be glad like look I've never seen somebody from the organization before you know it's like go down to the Dungeon and and really get your hands on what and Thebenz Point Audit that annually quarterly depending on the cadence of your and maturity of your training organization and those metrics are important and you know we don't have time to do a deep dive into training metrics. Maybe we can do that on another episode, but make sure that those metrics are based in the. Science. Right, right Also important to have some sort of plan for refreshing things as you go through the years, right. So you know some training materials that were developed ten years ago might not be relevant anymore or they might just be so corny looking nowadays, board music is so bad. That people just have this. Immediate negative reaction to it and they stop listening. So you WanNa make sure you have a kind of a refresh plan. In place, and you know also think about whether or not some of your training is best done via internal development or via external vendors there certainly topics that you do not have the bandwidth or the expertise to address internally, and for that, you probably do need to look outside other things. You might be able to look inside and good to explore that as well. Yeah and another good thing about bringing in some of these external vendors as you can see what the landscape I know you hate to get their emails. Urchins looking for email harassment. This Thousand emails a day from vendors, but having a few the leaders in your org for at least an annual demonstration or go into their website that checkout or purchasing and having them as part of a portfolio partnerships that help you. Allow can help raise the bar for your internal training Right right. You can kind of latch onto the kind of methodology the way in which they designed those courses like so that that can be helpful to right and the last thing here is you know take a hard look at your learning management systems that you're using your organization. Make sure it's something that is useful. That's giving you the metrics you need in order to evaluate what's going on. And is easy for people to use. Yeah. So that you can spend a bunch of money on tech and get no results. And then I've seen some people that just keep their training on powerpoint files that are on share point site. And, they refresh him and all those kinds of things their software helps you do certain things, and so you know determining who got trained across the organization, those kinds of things that can be helpful but beware of the bright. Shiny. Tool actually not doing the work than it needs to do for you and your organization right remember while you're trying to do is actually change people's. Behavior change their knowledge or skill level change some results within your organization. So today we focused on the fact that corporate trading doesn't have to stink. You can stop the Numb scullery out there in its tracks a we talked about what is trading, why matters ways to design trainings. So it helps people learn and we follow up with some key takeaways for people, leaders, and organizations. Thanks for listening to the Indigo podcast if you like this podcast, pleaseconsider helping us by rating us on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen. Telling your friends about us, having us on your podcast or mentioning us on. Social Media. Our website is www dot indigo podcast dot com. Where you can access more information about us and this episode. Thanks again, and we look forward to talking with you again soon.

Chris Ben Baron youtube boxing Organizational Psychology google sales training Abraham Lincoln INDIGO ANCHOR scully Kurt Krieger McGinnis harassment Cleveland State University Association for Talent Develop Dead Sea Nita Oregon
I Want You to Want Me: Exploring Impression Management

The Indigo Podcast

41:52 min | Last week

I Want You to Want Me: Exploring Impression Management

"Welcome to the INDIGO PODCAST and exploration of human flourishing at work in beyond I'm Ben Baron of INDIGO ANCHOR and Cleveland State University, and I'm for seven of indigo anchor for more information. Please visit us at www dot indigo podcasts dot. com. So today we're going to talk about, I, want you to want me. Exploring impression management. You gotTa love that old cheap trick song, right so yeah, today we're GonNa talk about what impression management is. We're GONNA talk about how we shape impressions as humans and a little bit about how we can change them, and of course, we're GONNA. Talk about some implications for people, leaders and organizations, and before we jump into this I just wanted to mention this is a a very large area of research and. So we have a number of studies that we've cited in the show notes as usual, but there's a couple more this time than normal. So please check those out. If you want more information about this topic, if you're maybe a graduate student, who's interested in this dig in there because there's a lot we're gonNA skim the surface going to try to give you some gold nuggets here in the course of this episode. Yeah I mean this is kind of impression. Management is how nerds Covered says, what's it mean to be cool? A Am I trying some version of like hot or not or seventy. So, but it's this process that you know humans by and large engage in on a very regular basis. Impression management sometimes, it's equated with self pres- presentation. There's kind of some differences there but you know there's even this idea of the self presentation to yourself. You know how you how you present yourself to yourself how you think about yourself but you know in terms of impression management in the way we're defining it here is this process by which people control the impressions or attempt to control the impressions others form of them. You know. So we do this pretty frequently even if you don't think you do think. Yeah, I mean. It's. Something I'm never going to tell my kids is grow up high school's not like the rest of life. It's like dude, high school is the rest of life only you don't have the goths and the jocks and the nerds you've got the you know Chan. From accounting. Stephen from it you have. I mean they're not as colorful buckets people. They're the same thing and this idea of the process by which we control the impression others form of us. Right and we all think about that. You know we worry about what we're going to wear to a job interview. what would be appropriate tone to set because it's not just outside dress it's also the way you talk when I'm in the army. When I'm with my family. Especially, when I'm with my little girls, I'm all like high. My kids are awesome except when they're jerks. But. When I'm with the army, it's Hey, nice hand. But it's different when I'm with an infantry unit, it's a little bit some of that like, Hey, can this jackwagon lead us into? A small. Arms. Firefight. or where I'm with the cyber team and I'm dealing with a bunch of computer jocks that are also in the military. There's different ways in which the way the cadence and tone of voice sales people do this. One of the things that people teaches matched the tone and pace of how you talk to the person you're trying to sell something. These are all forms of impression management and they're as old as nature itself. Right I've how we navigate right and if someone doesn't do any of this, if you could imagine either yourself or someone around you not doing any impression management that's probably not very good right they would probably come across as being extremely Unselfish aware. I'll say, right. So which can be a strategy in certain circumstances e there's no way not think of this, right? Right. But if but if you're using a quote unquote last week of self impression management as a strategy than isn't that also impression I mean this is. Like is no form, a form itself. Of course. Yeah. So the literature breaks down and we'll post the link. Of course, as I mentioned to this great article that is one of the probably the most highly cited or one of the most highly cited articles that reviews and kind of pulls together. A lot of the research on impression management pulls together these two different processes that they talk about. The first one is impression motivation and the second one is impression construction. So impression motivation is all about. The degree to which you are motivated young though the reasons why you might want to control how other people see you, and that has a couple of different factors One of them is the goals right what are what are you trying to do? Why are you trying to create some different impression of yourself? Yeah. Sometimes you have so much money and so much not need to work. You're really not highly motivated on that. If you if you WANNA wear yesterday's pajamas. To the country club and they'll let you get by with it. You have just my do it. You know. And why is that why you're wearing the shirt you're wearing right now? Yeah. Well, this is my daytime pajamas transitioned to my night time. The Cova. Come in uniform. Right. But there is some motivation thing right and they're this three factors that go into impression motivation right and the first one's goal relevance of the impression one creates. Do you have something you're wanting to accomplish that may be get that job convince your boss. A major initiative, those kinds of things. The second is the value of the desired outcomes whether or not you know care yeah. Yeah. Well, some of it is like my best day in a suit, I don't care if it's custom-tailored from Brooks brothers is not going to be as good as your best day in bed and she just. You goodness suit I look like somebody who's put on a suit, right? And then there's this idea of discrepancy between current and desired images right and so I. You know I'm come into a place in my life. I'm pretty comfortable right? I've I've achieved things and my military career in my business career I'm very comfortable with my level of comprehension of key business topics and stuff. So there's not a big Delta between normally when somebody reaches out to me, it's not because I look good in a suit. It's because I can solve the problems that they have. Right so there's not a large discrepancy but. What what would be an example of a place where there might be a big discrepancy between current and desired image? So I'm thinking about one particular example that I had a couple of years ago whereas going to do a talk and I this is not a huge example of this but I think it is it is one. As going to do this talk and I, it was going to be in front of a bunch of people whom I let's just say that I wanted I wanted to come off. Well, I want people to be like, wow, I got something out of that talk I wanted I wanted them to walk away also thinking you know that person Kinda Newt they're talking about and and so forth I didn't want them to leave that that experience with a foul taste in their mouth either about the topic or about me and one thing I thought about pretty carefully was when I was going to wear and the the current. Thing that I was going to wear I just didn't really like it. I didn't fit quite the way I wanted to and so forth and so I, got some new stuff. That's a very basic example, but it's like, Hey, I don't want people to be distracted by the fact that you know this person's you know their tire or whatever isn't. Isn't fitting well or whatever. So I upgraded and I did that very much deliberately and it was because I wanted to at least have a little bit of control over the impression that I was creating and I think that that's totally fine I was just trying to close that gap between my what I thought the current image would be and the desired one. Yeah. Here's another example. This is exact for a technology start up that I'm coaching right now. He tends to go into the deep dive when he his first couple of investor pitches before he brought me on. He would be like Oh. Let me tell you about how this integrates with Amazon web services and they have this new platform and I've got eyes glazing over. Yeah, right. So so technical and it's not that some of these investors weren't technical. But the impression that they had, and you know when he gave me the brief back about these, how my pitches have gone so far the impression they definitely had was this is somebody that's so down into the technical beef stew. That he's not going to be able to be strategically minded around maybe some of the larger industry or business pressures he might based, and so we worked as part of our cultural are coaching engagement to like, Hey, listen be able to deep dive there but you also gotta show him even though you're so passionate about the technology you gotTa show him you have competence and mastery of these broader business base perspectives and objectives, and that this was an idea where he's like hand you're so right and so we spent a Lotta time. Let's pretend you had to do a pitch and not talk about anything technical at all. How would you pitch your idea and using some of those? Lens allowed him to address at discrepancy but between what he found out, right when we held up the Mary found out its current image and perception by people that he was pitching was one way but his desired image was to be seen as an adequate expert both right? Yeah. That's fantastic. That's a great example and I think it's interesting also to you had to share that right. You share that feedback with this person and and kind of work through how that impression was being portrayed and we've done that with each other Ben sure there have been times when you know it's like, Hey, did you realize? I'm like Oh man don't and then Tyson Hey did you notice? Yeah. So we need each other right for this well said, well said. So that's this impression motivation piece and the other piece. The other components of impression management is impression construction, and this has to do with those types of impressions that you're trying to construct and a big part of this is how you WanNa. See Yourself your self concept. And you know we talk on this podcast a lot about. How how do you live your best life? How do you construct an identity that you can be proud of love and that's part of this identity or impression construction piece we already talked a little bit about this idea about desired and undesired identity images how you WanNa be portrayed. How do you want what kinds of images you want to be like versus not WanNa be that's another part of this this impression construction piece. Yeah. So the book the Chimp Paradox talks about the person you want to be is the person you are because you even have a desire for that thing right and so it's good. Have a self concept. We also talk about all the time that sometimes the impostor syndrome is true. You are an impostor if you can't live up to the integrity in your heart and soul that you know that is right. and. You're. You're maybe going to church on Sunday but being a you know industrial baron pirate Monday through. Friday you're on the wrong side of life buddy. So have a positive self concept have an idea of like these are the desired pieces of my identity that I am actually gonna live up to and. These are some undesired parts I need to work on those and come up with a project plan to mitigate and eliminate. Go Fix yourself go fix yourself is another part of this is just what role urine and you know be in your job be it in a particular setting you mentioned how you might portray yourself a little bit differently when you're around your young daughters of compared with how you may be around an infantry unit. Maybe. They should blend a little bit more high maybe those rooms are push ups. I was thinking the other way. Maybe you should talk to the entry unit like you do with your daughter's. Is, not like a cuddle before bed time in the field. Really haven't really bring some outstanding results I. I look forward to hearing about that. So. But thinking about your role and and kind of how that plays into your impression. Also has to do with those people who you're trying to influence what their values are right what they see potentially as pro typically competence or effective and also. You kind of your current social image. So all these are part of this impression construction. This process that we go through to try to come up with a good impression for the world how we present ourselves. Yeah, and then some talk about the target values maybe just need a job and you really don't like the mission to this company. But in the end that does not like an, it doesn't pay the rent. You know maybe after. Put on some impression management. It's like, yes, you know I think Gobert yogurt is the best thing ever to happen to. America you know because that's A. Little Bit. We're talking about Greek yogurt then yes that's true. Magic. Fan. Are you at show Bonnie Guy. Fi. Okay. All right. Because they have big things of it at Costco it's. True this is true. All right. So we've talked about what impression management is. Let's move now to your another piece of this puzzle, which is how do we shape impressions and can we change them and what's fascinating here is just how darn quickly we create impressions of other people. Yeah like you. Matter of fact, this is what's What's the unit of measurement that's used the about one hundred milliseconds. Milliseconds, and if you look across all the literature I, mean they haven't done any tests to say that it's a nate but the literature seems to suggest that you're GonNa, make those judgments whether you want to or not. They're going to happen. That's part of our survival mechanisms. Right you could use kind of an evolutionary psychology argument here suggesting that you know back when we were. More hunter-gatherers when there were more environmental threats to our well-being in our safety that these snap judgments, he's very first impressions. helped us to survive because it helped us make quick decisions about different pieces of our environment and be the other people. Be They animals, predators, other types of of things that might be out there. But yes, you know I. It seems like we make these impressions after less than one second. You know much less You know one tenth of a second or even less, and you know what? What? They've what they've looked at again, check out these articles that we posted in the show notes. What they found found at least one study is that after a one hundred millisecond exposure to a picture so they're showing people, pictures, You know this correlated highly with the judgments that people made in the absence of time constraints right and I'm quoting from the abstract here. But suggesting that this exposure time was sufficient for participants to form an impression in quote. So you know in that short period of time, it seems like we start to make somewhat enduring and that's the tricky thing somewhat enduring impressions of other people. Yeah. So I think about when You know I studied music I wanted to play music professionally and I got to Nashville and I was running out of savings and I needed to get a GIG but is new to town did know anybody and I got offered for a Gig and they pick me up and drove me from Nashville over all the way to Clovis New Mexico. and. And these are not the kind of guys. I was raised around. You know I was raised in an air force family. These guys were. Had all kinds of interesting colorful things to say that would not allow us to keep a okay for kids rating on this podcast and my eyes were just like well, wait what but I was like I really need frigging cash GonNa have to call my parents and say you're right. I should've never majored in music. Bad Idea I've a dummy all that kind of stuff which was the last thing I wanted to do. But after I got to know these guys for a while and which actually help prep me for the military 'cause it's been. So myopically in one way, I didn't have my initial judgements and what I was the values I was taught growing up was not a sufficient Lynn's to make accurate comprehensive judgements of these. Musicians I was on the road with right some who smoked weed, which I like what? What's all this know now we it's kind of more accepted now days, but then I was like, oh, my gosh. That marijuana right. Well, the story from you where you know perhaps one of your bandmates was had been indulging. In In the weed and afterwards, you're sitting there in the hotel room reading Adam Smith's the wealth of nations. Well, he's whacked out of his mind. Okay. Yeah. Lord of the Rings and he's like run FRODO run and I'm like, oh. My God has my life come to this. But these guys, let me tell you these were some really loving good people. I didn't have my initial by speed judgments needed a broadening. Now people go like I need a cultural broadening experience I'm GonNa go to Europe and visited Lou. That? Way. But another like. I need a cultural broadening experience and Deep in the bowels of the South and maybe. distill some illicit poos and try to run it across state borders. I mean, they're both broadening for sure. But but the whole point is you gotta take stock how wide abroad have you really gotten to see and know people right so you're you're split judgments, my split judgments so that time coming out of a completely sheltered numb scullery of a good childhood by well-intentioned parents did not let me for making accurate calls. That exposure like the military you know some of those guys the first airplane they ever we're on was a flight to basic training you so guys like all right good night. Sir. They put in a dip and then go to bed with the dip in their mouth and I just had never seen that kind of stuff and you know what? These are the guys that are fighting for our nation's freedoms. And they signed up when other people wouldn't and that was a real important I mean just totally in down that like the growth curve I went on this impression management. And this is why we care because. I. Think that we know we know that we all do this to everybody else. And so it paralyzes us with ear when we have to go navigate a new situation because we know for for darn sure they're doing it to us and he just happened. So quickly oftentimes, if we're not careful, you know you mentioned the one study that looked at a one hundred millisecond exposure to someone's face. There's another one and we posted a link to this one as well called very first impressions. Suggests that people make pretty consistent. First Impressions based upon Thirty, nine milliseconds of information right now, they make less reliable judgments about people's, for example, intelligence and that, but they make judgments about personality about kind of character that person just based upon these very fast impressions, and It also reminds me. I had a someone I came across was talking with. People I've gotten feedback people to say that they think I'm kind of unapproachable until they come in come and talk to me you know and I I agree with this this person was very approachable, right? Super friendly and I said, well, you know what? We kind of talked a little bit about it and I said, well, let's look at your head shot and. The head shot for this person. It was porter line mugshot where this person was just not. Here, I'm GonNa stab you. Right. Away. So they're probably seeing that even if they see it maybe just for thirty-nine milliseconds. Developing a first impression and then having to deal this person and they already have already been primed kind of feel like this person's unapproachable. So That's that's a key word pride because because the next question that would come to any person, any thinking person's mind is going to be like, okay. Well, this happens and something's off. Can I turn that Frown Upside Down Right? How many change a first impression, right? And we all know that it's important. We all do this. And you know there have been some studies of this I think that it seems like the literature basically comes to a conclusion that yeah, you can change first impressions but. It's hard. It is hard wicked hard in other words you have to provide. So here's some of the stuff if I'm remembering correctly from the literature, which a pretty sure I am is that you have to provide tons and tons and tons of contrary proof. Right right, and but the one thing that can change an impression very quickly as if it's. Wildly negative you know Jim Bob is a pedophile. Like all of a sudden, it doesn't matter what good bad having. There are certain kinds of pieces of information that will immediately and then we can see this some political campaigns with this smear tactics. Right. The idea is to sh hijack how our minds work. And use it for ill Right. So but if you're a person WHO's trying to change, you know a an impression perhaps that you've created. You are going to have to be very intentional about countering that with contrary information with you know if if people perhaps see you as unapproachable, you're going to have to go out of your way to be approachable and maybe even be explicit about it saying look I know that maybe sometimes I come across as unapproachable but I I really am and this is something. I know about myself. You know if you're the leader in that situation you've gotta you've gotTa live with that that impression because this is your team, but you still gotta lead them Then you really need to provide that contrary information you got to do it deliberately, and then you've got to be consistent in that behavior if you start to revert back to that. Initial. Impression then people can back. It was just just an act. This is how they person that person really is. Yeah, and there's there's a cultural piece here too and it's relates to what we call him the literature. Organizational citizenship behaviors. Right people may be acting positively to manage positive impressions rather than being committed to the mission of the ORG and we see. That we coach. Right you know they're sitting there was like do people like me? To people really liked the company were building. I really want to gather feedback so that I can make sure that we are you know like. So if you're a caring executive, how can they find out what all these people think? So it could build something that they want to be a part of so that we can have success and wealth and everything else together. and that's really hard because this impression management creates a muddy murky view of what people are really thinking or feeling and. You know. Then the other question is, does everybody have to really be bought into the mission organization? If if Bob over an accounting just like listen I, don't care about this place but I do the accounts receivable to standard every week and in the end I just want a job and take Gulf every weekend right? Sounds. Good sounds good, right. This is you know some people might just be acting positively to kind of create a positive impression of themselves You know I guess I would say Does, it doesn't matter too much right. Are they are they just acting or not? I think that's where you need to take on face value. But always, you know continue to watch their behaviors I think that that's that's an important way to to kind of go forward and to make more accurate judgments about people I. Think it's also just so important to You know be careful about the snap judgments we talk about US hundred milliseconds thirty, nine milliseconds that we do this. And it ties into another idea which is called the fundamental attribution error and this as. One more time. Fundamental attribution error. This say tendency that we we all seem to have. Where we see someone doing something, we see a behavior and we attribute it when it someone else we attributed it to. Something about them that were. Whereas with ourselves. When we do something, we attribute it to something circumstantial perfect example of this you're driving down the road and someone cuts you off right they just take their car and they move right in front of your act wagon. Hagler Jackwagon this person can't drive what an inconsiderate person. You don't sit there and go you know that person probably had a really good reason to try to get off at this exit. In front of me. Now you are first reaction oftentimes is to to commit the fundamental attribution error and attribute that behavior to something about them. Conversely, if we cut someone off, we oftentimes are kind of like. We think oh well, I got to get over this late. I gotta take this exit because I'm going to the hospital or whatever or whoops i. made a mistake you know and We attributed to something external to us. So I think it's just about being more thoughtful in our impression judgments of others and giving people a little bit of grace I. think that that's a helpful way. Forward I think I kind of moves us in to the next section of what we're GonNa talk about here with regard to impression management, and that is what are some implications for people, leaders and organizations. Well, the first thing is to notice how lame it is. When we formed this impressions right very quickly with no evidence, we just look at somebody and instantly know everything about their life right and actively seek to treat others the way that we would want to have our first impressions handled, right? Right. I. Mean I think if we're all honest with ourselves. We could probably find some examples. Of Times in which we have probably created an impression that was not great or maybe if we had some people around us who are honest with us, who told us you know if you don't know that about yourself, you are not self aware out of thousand at-bats you're going to have some whiffs you're just gonNa Miss Hardcore, and you'll be like actually I. I I'm not interested in this job anymore I'm gonNA applied somewhere else I whipped so bad or something right so yeah, you gotTa treat people the way you'd want to be treated. That means one understanding your brain psychology. So. If you go into interview a candidate, let's say you're interview word like maybe a manager of something or if you're on like a I don't know community choir or something and and Oh we're GonNa meet somebody new today you could say to yourself. Is GonNa, tell me a bunch of Baloney, that I have no ways validating right out the gates. So. When you see those, you're not going to be able to unseat. It's just be like. How might I know if these are true or not, and then rather than forcing that person to go on an impression management crusade of positive information and dressing. Shenanigans you could seek those pieces of information maybe through questions dialoguing getting to know that person you know. Hey. So how do you solve problems here or when you solve that problem? What were you thinking that was novel or something like that right and I think if you've ever been part of a team or a group of people who was charged with hiring a new person and you listen to the conversations that happen after you've met with candidate. You've probably encountered a lot of this. You know that person just kinda seemed disorganized. Now. Is that something that they actually said or something about their record or? You A lot of times. It's like that person you know maybe they had a couple of creases in their shirt that were in the wrong spot for who they got their laid out the door because her kids wouldn't pack their lunches on time. and. They're frazzled. So you gotta be very careful about that. So to your point. To Force yourself to slow down, you want to seek out some data to really try to validate whether or not. Your first impressions are worth anything because sometimes they are sometimes they aren't and you WANNA be careful. Over on the I O. Psychology the other day. and. It's funny because one of the things that I owe psych people like is a huge pillar of what they focus on is this idea of assessment, right? Oh for sure. Can we assess if some numskulls going to be a good worker in this or Graham so but they talk about all of that but when it comes to I, excite people choosing. People to join their team or their organization or their program. What do they do? That same nothing. Dragon Jackwagon Baloney of first impression man. High Pot Kettle Black, right? Right. That's an interesting point and I think there's there's something to it. You, know one other thing that we talked about when we're thinking about this topic with regard to some implications is that you know if there is a team dynamic maybe some people have gained or started to have some first impressions about someone and it might be going down the wrong path. Try to slow that process down a little bit offer some contrary data or some other thoughts to help to. Keep people on a more deliberates and more evidence based way forward. Yeah. So I've had this team that I've managed you know I just know of jam or care whoever doesn't fit in Oh my you know that the pettiness starts coming to you as a leading and you know one of the pieces of for you know language that I use when it comes it's like you know. I helped higher tim and I believe Tim is completely committed to the mission of the organization here. Now, that forces everybody else to recalibrate one, I'm not gonNA listen to any pettiness that's not validated with. You know it's not that fringed my impressions are off you know it has to be you know Tim's been late ten times in our last three projects have been really disrupted because of that you know something like that. That's quantitative about something because what'll happen and we know this from the science in group out group will four and as a leader, you've got to cure rate that culture not only the broader culture but that team culture and be watching for especially when New People are coming on, that's the time you know we talk about you know people derailing. That, some of that derailment can be caused by those impressions and having some language to force people to say listen, we don't go by first impressions here we only make qualitative data driven decisions that is the norm for this team. Maybe you're the one who has a problem you know you can start shaping that kind of thing. So be watching for that as a manager as a leader. It reminds me of this time back early in my I. My navy career back when I was on active duty and we got a new captain for our ship and You know everyone when you get a new leader when a new person around everyone's trying to figure that person out right and. I. Was talking about the new captain with another person is like yeah, you know he seems like a Pretty Good Bob La, and this person who with whom is having the conversation was much more experience than I had been in the Navy probably longer than I've been alive at that point and this person said to me. You know I, I usually give a new a new person about three months before I try to come up with any judgments about him. Wow that is smart right and it turned out that that person I think you know my let's just say it by impressions changed over the course of. Three months but that's really wise right to take some time because people are complex humans are complex I'm complex your complex. We don't want other people doing that to us. Let's not do it to other people. Yeah that's that's such a I. Know Full knowing that your minds GonNa. Feed you Baloney first impression data that you have to be is. On that you know and it's the same thing. It's like you know with kids at neighborhoods. You know you see someone like my kid can do no wrong. But other kids can somehow you know there's some of that dynamic like anybody could be a long as there are total jackwagon wagons out there that should get fired or should never be in charge of people totally just make sure that you know that you're treating other people the way you'd WanNa be treated. That's great. So this also then brings us to. Some potential implications for organizations and you know if you're trying to design an organization where everyone can flourish and thrive, how do you know these these ways in which we think and create first impressions about people? How does that tie in and one thing that I think organizations can do is try to have some structural ways in which you can try to. Counteract some of these biases that we have create some better decisions right you know part of it is maybe hey, our culture around here is we don't make we don't. We try not to have first impressions about people try to give people the benefit of the doubt and let them have have their shot maybe that's part of it. Another part of it is you know how do we make decisions about people newcomers in terms of how do we interview people? I think that's a huge one. Yeah. So you know I think of the symphony example which does have some issues with it, but the idea is good as far as coming up with a structural way. One of the ways to evaluate somebody on their playing rather than how they look or the you know the base face they make when they're getting down with a hard mozart line is is to have a scrim they set up an acoustically transparent scrim and they'd say you know. Audition number six and somebody everybody wear flat shoes. So you can tell heels versus guys shoes and would sit down and play and they would have to make a decision on that person solely based on the sound because in Symphony Orchestra. I don't know what else you would look for you. You want awesome players who play amazingly. And and and you know what you're seeking to there is that you know impressions about how people look you know can really get in the way of how we evaluate other aspects of them. So in most jobs how you look doesn't have a big bearing on your job performance or it shouldn't you know unless you actually are a model or an actor There's there's a lot that you do in the course of your your careers I will never Chech-. There's a lot that you do and make decisions about that has nothing to do with that right and so your competence really shouldn't be based on that and likewise are hiring decisions shouldn't and there's loads of data around you know even for example, the biasing nature of people's first names because certain names of course are can be associated with genders can be associated with a different ethnic or racial groups, and those can start to trigger some of these first impressions that we may have and some of these stereotypes perhaps that we have and that's not related to job performance and so you know. There's some good sense in for example, not even having the names of people be President on resumes now. oftentimes never happens but there, there are some good science behind that likewise not looking at pictures of people. In terms of making decisions about their army just got rid of the DA photo as part of promotion packet. Yeah. So the navy has had it for a long time. They had it. They got rid of it. It came back and now we're we're using it currently for for promotions. But what they used to do is you'd have aspects of your record that would show on a big screen to the board is sitting there making decisions about who to promote and you got one of the screens has a picture of the person and other screen has decisions about the person's record and You know that could have a biasing effect and so that guy looks like an admiral look at it right? Now look at that so. Those are things that you can do based on the science to start to get away from the danger of these first impressions that we can make know been an item that we've introduced together, and that I really like is this idea of a collaborative alliance sometimes, the cultural norm is everyone we hire is going to be just like us. And we disguise out and the rhetoric of culture fit. Right, and which really means while we WANNA hang out all day with people. We'd like which, hey, if that's what you want I, guess that's a cultural decision making but I think you you short yourself especially, if you're in a competitive environment which who isn't from people that could you know diversity is not just about gender and color it's also about ideas, backgrounds perspective. These are things that you can wield for your strategic advantage in your org. But if it's this idea of you know these two people are equally qualified but this one felt more like somebody I could have a beer with. Maybe. Your interview price terrier wasn't robust enough to really uncover the differences right and maybe you have a cultural norm of similarity that as problematic. So now back to the idea of collaborative alliance, if you say, we are here as a collaborative alliance of people who agree and can get behind the values and mission of this organization it's different when I think about in the US army. You know there's a lot of people I don't like in the army. Right But one thing I do dig is that they're behind the mission of the US army and we can go to Afghanistan or whatever and do what we gotta do. And that's fine. So it makes me take a different Lynn's on how I evaluate people on rather white buddy buddy cozy cozy which I get it. You spend a lot of time with each other at work. But if you have a culture where it's not about that kind of stuff and it's like you know what I need a collaborative alliance with this person for this time and it can broaden your structures and you just might find you can be buddy buddy cozy cozy with a broader source of people initially thought. That's great. So today on the PODCAST, we have explored impression management. We've talked about what it is. We've talked about how we shape impressions and how he sometimes can change them and we wrapped up with some implications for people, leaders, and organizations. Thanks for to the INDIGO PODCASTS. If you like this podcast, these consider helping us by rating us on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen telling your friends about us having on your podcast or mentioning us on social media. Our website is www dot indigo podcast dot com. Where you can access more information about us and this episode. Thanks again, and we look forward to talking with you again soon.

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Mike Richardson on Agility Before, During, and After COVID

The Indigo Podcast

1:09:24 hr | 2 months ago

Mike Richardson on Agility Before, During, and After COVID

"Welcome to the Indigo podcast and exploration of human flourishing at work and Beyond. I'm been Barren of indigo anchor and Cleveland State University, and I'm Chris Evert of indigo. Anchor more information, please visit us at www.pfizer.com. All right. So today on the podcast we've got Mike Richardson and we're going to talk about agility before during and after covid-19 days of the main topics are agility as a business imperative bringing agility is small and medium-sized businesses the mid-market void as we call it. We're going to talk about filling a void with the referring series here that we're going to do on agile conversation flow to cash flow and we're going to talk about the agility challenges of CEOs Executives and managers running a small to medium-sized and and especially fast-moving businesses. Yeah. This is going to be so great and I just want to take a moment and introduce Mike properly Mike Richardson specializes. Yeah Mike, you know Mike's a great guy and and he for a long time has been specializing in the agility challenges of CEOs and Executives running. Small to medium-sized Enterprises at Mike Richardson. Live. He shares insights at the intersection of his agility experiences in three worlds in the real world. He started his career as a petroleum engineer on offshore oil and gas drilling rigs with Shale International and now studies other every day as your leaders in the real world fighter pilots Navy Seals firefighters and not others in the business World via an MBA at London Business School. He went into the Aerospace industry and end up running the Aerospace division of a British public company Spirits PLC off in the advisory world for nearly twenty years as an author keynote speaker facilitator coach and board member including fifteen years as a CEO peer group chair and speaker with vistage Worldwide. Wow. Mike's first book is titled wheel spin the agile Executives Manifesto, and the second book is a work-in-progress titled the five rules of every day as your leaders cracking the agility comb. For CEOs Executives and managers of small to medium-sized Enterprises Mike. Welcome to the Indigo podcast. Yeah, so I'm sorry excited, right? Yeah. So those are kind of introductory episode with Mike Richardson where we get to learn a little bit more about him get to learn a little bit more about his perspective on this thing. We call a Jilla T and agile and Thursday. It's going to be great because as we'll talk about a little bit later in the episode. We're going to start doing some recurring episodes with Mike and it's going to be wonderful. So with all of that being said, let's launch into this first part and we're going to talk about here is Mike himself, you know, the the the why the what the who the how the where the wind of my call the double use em, like all of a sudden. Yes, all the doubles plus the how and I guess let's start with this why you know, we your focus in your writing. You're speaking and you're Consulting in your executive leadership has all been around this idea of agility and agile, and I'm just curious man. Like why why are you so passionate about this topic? Well, I guess because I felt the pain, you know, I've sat in the seat of being a a CEO and executive first of all and then a CEO and then the divisional CEO of em, you know, mid-market small to medium-sized and fast-moving businesses. And you know, I had a lot of people coming into my office, you know offering their their service sucks. Sometimes the big Consulting houses. Sometimes the smaller sort of training and coaching and Consulting organizations sometimes academics wage and sometimes you know practitioners and what I discovered was that it was very hard for them to relate to the challenges that I faced everyday. How did I. You fill the shoes fully fill the seat. If you like in the driving seat of a small to medium-sized and fast-moving business and I just increasingly felt that there's something missing. There's a vacuum there's a void. I mean Avid Reader, you know, I've read all the all the primary books. I've listened to all the speakers. I've just tried to join up all the dots as best I could and I just felt there was some dots missing and so I felt you know dedicated and passionate to figuring out what those other dots were joining up the dots to make the whole picture and that's what I've been passionate about it for nearly twenty years. Now. Wow. Wow, that's fantastic. And so if that's what you've been, you know passionate about tell us a little bit more about that what this idea of agility and agile your focus. What is it? How do you define that? Yes, so you know agility is the ability. Need to adapt clearly. We're all very familiar with that Charles. Darwin said it's not the strongest. It's not the most intelligent. That's the most adaptable change who survived so we're all familiar with that and we can pick up any business magazine any day that week and and or blog and we'll see people talking about, you know be adaptable but frankly, that's my experience that is a massive over-simplification. It is incredibly complex because it's not only the ability to adapt it's the ability to out Xbox cute rapidly changing circumstances. Just look at the environment. We're in right now and execute your competition and execute the expectations of your very own categories of stakeholders, of course, your customers first and foremost, but equally your employees you keep the best talent equally your suppliers in your supply chain so that you get the best service and the best price and wage. And the best support and of course your shareholders and frankly your debt holders. The last thing you want. Is that phone call from the bank at just the wrong time. So it is massive. It is massively complex to get that agile execution equation, right? And that's you know, that's the challenge that I focus on is is how you doing that as an executive as a manager as an executive as a CEO of a small to medium-sized and fast-moving business. It's very complicated. Yeah. Yeah. It's like somebody gets on LinkedIn and says, hey buddy, I got the suggestion for your business. Why don't you just suck less? I want to suck less. I realize I don't have the stuff. What what do I do or huge book on boxing? There's Mike Tyson. Why don't you go get in the ring? That doesn't that doesn't help know exactly and you know, I love the inspiration and the insights that we're surrounded log. I love it all but frankly my experience is that for your average CEO and executive of the kinds of businesses were talking about all this stuff that's very hard to relate to not least of all cuz they just don't have the time or the headspace to read it all digested all distill it all and figure out what do I do with this month? How do I translate it into terms of irrelevant in my business and even more importantly, how do I facilitate my team to get into traction with a tall guy consequently, they kind of shrugged their shoulders and and kind of resigned themselves to well. I'll just do the best I can I'll go with the flow and hopefully everything will be all right. Yeah, there's no there's a real appetite for some practical guidance here, you know, people are literally starving for this. But every time they go out into the primordial ooze. That is the agile landscape dead. It's terrifying. It's terrifying. Yeah. Yeah, it's overwhelming and frankly not least of all, you know, the big guys the big consultancy has is a constantly pushing out in a research data that pushing out the latest book they can get the cover article in the big magazines the Harvard Business Review any time they want cuz they have that kind of, you know influence and it's good stuff, but it's thirty thousand foot stuff that doesn't relate to my day-to-day reality even all the classical training and Consulting coaching organizations. One of my very very very favorites. By the way is Dale Carnegie. I've worked with Dale Carnegie for thirty-five forty years so much. So actually that one of my clients that I've been working very closely with in the last couple of years actually won the global international facilities and a global and international. What am I saying that 4 a.m. Annual Dale Carnegie leadership award the issue one per year. Even Dale Carnegie is trying to Hitch its wagon to the agile train and I don't I don't have a problem with that good luck to them and do everything I can to support them, but it's just adding to the confusion in my experience is that most Executives and CEOs experience in this expanding Universe of insights and inspiration about agile there left kind of like looking around and thinking what do I do? And how do I do this? Yeah, you know you describe this vast landscape of people in Consulting and in various aspects aspects of business talking about a jillion talking about agile and so forth and I think you're right. I see it all the time. I see it on LinkedIn. I see it in Publications. So that kind of brings us to all right. Well, there's this huge landscape, you know, yep. Where is Mike Richardson in that landscape? Where are you? Who are you in that way about that child? Well, it kind of how I go here was you know, I I think as you mentioned in the intro, I actually am I'm a scientist first and foremost. I studied geophysics at University which is geology physics and maths that shows me. Well now actually because geophysics is everything from the very center of the earth to the very edge of space and everything in between. So that serves me pretty well to wrestle with the whole of the agile challenge that was natural training to get into the oil and gas business which I did as a petroleum engineer was shell International and spent a couple of great years working on their drilling rigs onshore and offshore and again, and I now look back on that experience and realize now that I have the vocabulary for it. I realize what I learned about agile, and and that's where I ended up talking about wage. I call every day a Giles leaders. These are leaders who faced the agility challenge every single day in a real-world environment like a petroleum engineer on offshore oil and gas drilling rig or a Navy SEAL or a firefighter or a or a. Or a fighter pilot or both of you know this because you've both got military experience. Do you live that challenge every single day and you know how you're doing with that challenge at the very least that the end of the day possibly at the end of the next hour possibly at the end of the next minute possibly at the end of the next moment. It is black and white clear to you how you are doing. Are you influencing things? Are you in control of chaos or is chaos in control of you trouble is in business. It's a lot harder to know, you know, how we doing and often it takes off. Weeks months quarters sometimes used to play out by which time it's too late. So after I did my stint was shell for five years. I I did the classic thing in a ATS. I I decided I didn't want the technical career for the rest of my life and I needed to Pivot there's an agile word. And so I I pivoted via an MBA a full-time MBA at London Business School for two years, which was a blast didn't teach me much about our job. By the way now that I look back on it, but it did give me a good grounding and I was scanning around looking for what I wanted to do next. I nearly got into an automotive business, but I I got into the Aerospace business really through chance, but I am so glad that I did because once again I learned so much about agility in the design of fighter planes, the training of fighter pilots commercial Aviation defense and space and I did that wage. For through until the early 2000s by which time I'd relocated to the USA. I'm English originally American now live in Southern California and you know nine eleven happened the.com bubble burst the technology boom crash the markets crashed and in two thousand and two I decided to take the leap to follow my passion and therefore for nearly twenty years. Now. I've been pursuing this agility Challenge and loving doing it. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. I love your story. I love the, you know, the real experiences you've had along the way and so forth. I'm not surprised that you didn't learn much about agile and in business school, you know as a professor myself teaching some NBA off I try to do a little bit of that to try to bring that into the conversation. So so maybe things are a little bit different now at least in my classes. I don't know but so great. So you suck. A good picture of who Mike Richardson is which kind of brings us back full circle to you know, kind of why why is this? Why do you see this big need for more agility in our businesses people being more agile in their leadership approaches and so forth. Well, I think you know, the the main focus I have is when when I was sitting in the seat facing the challenge and feel the pain of not being very agile and the the the, you know, the rewards of discovering agility. I was really, you know able to identify with the challenge kind of from the inside out and then in the advisory world, of course for the last twenty years including as you mentioned being a peer group chair with with hundreds of CEOs and speeds through hundreds of peer groups around the world about agility as an advisor and obviously sitting on boards and coaching and Consulting and speaking and writing and all that kind of stuff, you know looking at the agility change. Show me outside in kind of living between those two those two worlds. What I realized was that the real key is to focus on whom do we need to be as executive as managers Executives and CEOs in the equation of our agility so that I can flick a few switches in my brain walk into the office differently this morning and in with me comes a different agile presence and as a result I'm able to influence scales influence, you know this concept we call Luca volatility uncertainty complexity and ambiguity influence all of those things. So that in the next minute the next hour by the end of the day, I can feel good that we had an agile day today not a fragile day and we control we influence chaos today. We didn't have KO. Influence us today. So it's really about who managers Executives and CEOs need to be in the equation of their agility to influence the unfolding Journey that they're on every single day. Yeah, so it's kind of a little bit of a gut check and some soul-searching that people gotta do it sounds like it is and looking in the mirror and you know, when a front of groups of of CEOs in particular, I love to sort of hold up the mirror metaphorically and say look you are simultaneously the problem and the solution and if we can get you to flick a few switches in your brain and start to to act and think differently than we can gradually align the rest of the organization with that enterprise-wide and Enterprise deep and essentially change your future change the trajectory of your future change the Journey of your future have a more agile future and a less fragile. Future. Yeah, because these CEOs are coming in some of them right and and they're just sick to their stomach. They're sick to their stomach when they go to bed. They're a pain in the rear for their spouse off. They come in you can see them just sadly turning the key to their car opening the garage driving the work powerless to affect cuz they don't know like this month. This is something these are behaviors that you can learn ways of thinking that you can learn so you can be empowered you talk about being fragile. You know, it's like well, how you doing today? CEO? We've got a big grin in our face when we come in and like total moment, but but we're smiling because we know what the other side of that Journey looks like you can get their guys and I've lived in both places. I truly have I I've identify with those days when I'm I'm feeling worn out and log Exhausted I'm feeling empty. I'm feeling beaten up. I'm scared stiff. I'm worried, you know to a high level of stress and then I catch myself off and I remember this is all in my head. This is all in in my body as it were if I can flick a few switches and change my mindset first of all. And then having changed my mindset. I regain my access to my skill set of being agile. And then in regaining my access to my skill-set, I regain my home to my to set things I can practically do today. I'm a big, you know believer that we don't feel ourselves into acting better off we act ourselves into feeling better. So what can I do today to get back in the seat to get my feedback on the pedals to grab the steering wheel and to start driving in an agile way. So I've lived there I still have days like that clearly. No one is immune from this but also have great dane and I couldn't agree more with You Chris of what you've said this whole concept of agile is just mired in myths and Mysteries. And so what I like to do with people and we'll be doing in in you know in these podcasts as we go forward is we'll be exploring the myths the Mysteries and the magic box. And when you stuck in the midst of it when you're stuck in the mystery that you wonder how will I ever get to that other side and yet when you do get to the other side and you look back you realize my my God a magical is this things flow is still chaotic. I still got you know a lot to get done but I'm able to be more composed. I'm able to be more calm I'm able to me more often hopefully but no matter what disruptive change comes at me. We've got the tools for the job. We've got the skills for the job. We've got the mindset for the job. Yeah, and you gotta actually pick them tools up some of you it's not illogical to be terrified of the work day cuz you actually don't have the skills or the mind-set ought to thrive. And so that that's that's a give you hope though because dead People's actually kind of salt this, you know, if you're in Afghanistan and you're on a convoy and you get hit by an IED, we now know what actions on need to look life after studying thousands of IED hits, right? And it's the same thing here if your company's going along and look we just had a giant IED called covid-19 and it's blown everything wrong words. I can't say and not get an explicit rating on Apple podcasts. Everything's blown to high heaven here. And the question is two leaders know what actions on our in the Box challenge now, it doesn't have to be covid-19. When you face that agility Challenge and that's and we need to talk about it. Yeah, and one thing one thing Mike says on a regular basis that I've heard him say and you've said it a couple of times kind of a different ways here already is it's not about the chaos. Like the chaos is going to be there. It's always going to be there but it's about your relationship with that chaos. I love that. Yeah, so it's it's about you know how to be different clearly wage. There's a lot of things to think about those little things to do, but mostly it's in the face of this craziness how to be, you know, calm composed collected and as a result conflicts and and indeed what I've distilled progressively over the years, you know by kicking around ideas and thoughts and have conversations and interviewing firefighters Navy Seals fighter pilots lifeguards commercial pilots those kinds of folks. And sort of comparing it with my own experience as a petroleum engineering Etc is that there are what I call five rolls of every day a jile leaders off that I urge Business Leaders CEOs Executives and managers to live up to and you just mentioned one of the attributes of agility to change our relationship with and that is chaos. And as you just said and then increasingly ruko World chaos is not going to go away. In fact, it's only going to get worse. So the challenge isn't how do I how do I minimize chaos? How do I deflect chaos? The challenge is know. How do I brace chaos and how do I change my relationship with it? And in particular? How do I poach my people my team my Enterprise to change? A relationship with chaos because there are two kinds of chaos. There's disorganized chaos where the majority live chaos controls them. Chaos defines them. They're lucky to survive the day. They go home worn-out burned-out stressed out versus the other kind of chaos, which is organized chaos. It's chaotic. It's moving fast, but we're in the flow of organized chaos. Those are two completely different worlds and our first role one of the five roles the first role of their 5-month roles of every day and real leaders is to coach people from this organized chaos to organized chaos and a challenge is that few people have had any coaching job chaos at all. They don't know how to do that. Whereas if you've worked on a drilling rig or you've been in the military like both of you or a firefighter or a life wage. Or any doctor and those kinds of every day at our leaders, you know that the difference between organized chaos and disorganized chaos is the difference between a Great Dane a terrible day and potentially has life-and-death consequences. And so you get very very very familiar with chaos and how to organize it so that you live in organized chaos, not organized chaos, and that's the first of the five rolls of every day aaja leaders. All right, so let's totally get into those five rolls here in a minute, but I think our listeners can start to see why agility is just crucial. It is an absolute imperative in crisis and you'll always have crisis so we've covered that. So what is the world look like once we get some agility? Is there an after for us as agilest? That's a great question. You know, I the reason I like to talk about agility before during and after Cove it is is actually you know, a lot of people obviously here in the middle of the covid-19 since I've talked about the need to be agile and pivoting to Virtual and people think their business model in all kinds of new ways, and I'm about to do a webinar with a commercial airline pilot talk about, you know, the everyday agile leadership challenges of being a commercial airline pilot of a 747 400 or indeed an A380 which he ended up flying but he is also an expert in the airline business and I listen to a webinar that he did the other night with one of the aviation industry dead bodies talking about the future of the airline industry after covid-19. Pretty so the challenge is that you know? We've been talking about agile for ever and certainly for nearly twenty years because back in two thousand and one we first came more formally started using the word agile with the agile Manifesto and and agile software development. But for many people agile is still a very confusing confounding concept that they can't relate to but they know now implicitly here in the middle of covid-19 need to adapt. They need to be more a job for me. The after covid thing is a very interesting question because the first question is challenged the Assumption. Will there be an actor or is there a permanent to a shift here where to some degree at least there is no going back. I wonder if that's the case to some degree. For the airline industry for instance have a whole bunch more people now come to terms with the cost-benefit equation of Virtual Office realize that you know, what why did I ever used to jump on a plane so frequently and go through, you know, all of that rigmarole when I can I can get you know, what levels of cost-benefit without needing to jump on a plane. So I think that's the key question for all Industries to ask is will there be an after covid-19. Would you know from from 0% you know, everything goes back to what it was to 100% know everything stays as it is and now where are people going to be on a spectrum and as a result how agile are people going to need to be with their business model with their organizational mall with their financial model and all those up that economic wage? Model and as a result their cultural model their Leadership Model and they're agile operating model for their business. Yeah. I like to think of it as an operating system. If you've got a fluent agility baked into all your models all I mean, you're just you're like a prime steak marinated and ready to go on the grill as far as agility off medium rare. Please doesn't matter the challenges that you face know cuz you have an operating system of agility and and there's and those are void here that people miss out off Mike tell us a little bit about that void. Well, you're so right and and that's why I talk about people being in the driving seat of their business because I'm I'm how do you fully fill the seat? How do you fully fill those shoes? Because think about it in the driving seat of your par? You jump in the car? You start it up you select gear and you go you don't sit there for ten minutes trying to map out a plan or what if I get to the end of the street and this scenario is happening. I'm going to turn left or turn. Right what if I get to the end of that street and I, you know, come down to the to the traffic lights and this is happening or that is happening. You don't sit there for ten minutes and try to map out a plan on the other day that you don't just drive off with zero plan and you don't know when you get to the end of the street. Are you turning left or right you get into the flow and you're very calm. Hopefully mostly you very calm very collected. You're very confident that in the driver's seat of my car pretty much no matter what happens 99.999% of the time. I'm going to get where I want to go pretty much on time safely and ready for business so we know how to log In that mindset, we know how to have those skill sets. We know how to have those tool sets cuz we do it every single day. What I like to challenge people is with is so when you park in the in the park outside your office and walk inside. Why do you leave all of that in the car? How do you take that in with you? Those mindsets our skill-sets those pool sets off. So the in the driving seat of your business you're able to operate in the same way as you just did in the driver's seat of your car. The trouble is that in this expanding Universe of Consulting expertise. Nobody's ever really distilled that and filled that void and that's what my instincts tell me off is the void that needs to be filled after all of these years and that's what we're focused on. Yeah. Well one thing that I really like about your approach Mike is that it empathizes with the dog. CEO of the small to medium-sized business and other other organizations, right? It's not that these people are stupid or lazy or or any of that. It's it's that they are pushing for time and they're they're doing their best. These are generally smart people who got in their positions because they had good experiences, but they need some guidance with regards to this page idea of of agile and Agility and how they can actually make it something real in their everyday life. Exactly. Exactly. I couldn't agree more with you, you know, one of the reasons I liked working with stood for so many years and having three hundred plus in my own members and talking to 400 plus groups around the world. Probably You Know Each of which had 10 to 20 members in it. So, you know, that's five thousand six thousand seven thousand CEOs is these are incredibly smart people and and very successful by large and surfing With my own members, you know, they would agree with me when I would often say yeah, you're very Street Smart. You've learned stuff the hard way, but you're not very book smart bulb. You've not read all the books. You've not listen to all the speakers. You've not pieced it all together. You have a joined-up all the dots. You don't have time. You don't have the headspace you maybe don't even have that interest frankly cuz it's just not how you're wired your wired to make stuff happen, but the challenges were not careful. We can be a busy Forum. We're very busy, but we're not putting it all together in a very agile way and so it it coming together in a more fragile where it's more frenetic hair on fire seat-of-the-pants kind of stuff and that's all we need to do is to bring a little bit more organization to it and we can start to unlock a next level of agility. One of my favorite questions to ask people when I when I hear people dead. Me any indication of tool that they are overwhelmed right? They say things like a buried I'm snowed under I can't get my head above water and spread too thin. That's all pode for I'm overwhelmed what I like to ask them is well, are you overwhelmed or are you under organized under organized for agility under organized for chaos in Dish organized chaos, not organized. Chaos, frankly under organized for Buca. You're letting Buca and Chaos Define you say explain vulgar. Buca is once again Buca is volatility uncertainty complexity and ambiguity. It's kind of a it's a military term that is widely used in the commercial World these days that really describes how change itself has changed know. We've always said changes of constant, right? That's an overused cliche. Yep. That I'll buy into that absolutely but the but actually change the nature of change itself has changed. It's now become a vuca world. We live in this accelerating world of Buca volatility uncertainty complexity and ambiguity and the antidote to ruca is agile, but agile remains a confusing confounding a lose something for so many businesses and so many CEOs and and we you the three of us myself were dedicated to changing that. Yes, what's missing here is a distinct pedagogy. Now if you guys don't know what pedagogy is go Google it happens again, I guess one of these fancy words, here we go, but this is a method for teaching. So when I came to Nashville to be a professional musician, I could listen to any record and I could duplicate the tones and I could rip all the music but if you sat me in a studio and said, all right now play a solo that's never vote. Played before on this on this session. I just looked and it's like man. I don't know. That's the Wizards Wizardry of session players, but after I'd been in Nashville for a while some of those session players said hey, Chris. Let me show you how this works and the and there is a methodology to be able to go to the studio. Say okay play a solo. All right now play another one play five more will have the produce pick later and and that seemed like magic to me but there was a methodology that these Pro players in Nashville knew about Victor could get you from not being able to do that song due in the magic. I love it. I love it. And and in other words what you've just revealed it's a great analogy a great story is there's a whole bunch of myths wage, right? You don't just show up and stop playing music. It's a bit of a mystery as to how, you know, a bunch of people musicians could show up and and just get started off. In the flow and they immediately in sync with each other, right and that's a mystery and it's magical when it happens. You just use the word magic several times in other words for the song enlightened. It's an unbroken code. They can't see through the chaos to them. It looks like what I don't understand what's going on here. I can't see the patterns. I can't see the method. I can see the skills. I can't see the tools. It's an unbroken code if we can get them to the other side where they broken the code. They can understand the system the page the method then that's a completely different place to live and next thing, you know, they can show up at a studio. Everybody can plug in 10 seconds later. We're all got got started and it it's just flowing beautifully and that's the difference where you live is are you stuck on one side? That's an unbroken coat and it's just remain. Mystery to you or have you crossed over and you broken the code and now it's magical for you. Yeah, so let's talk about how we're going to do that Mike break this down, you know break through to the other side of that mystery and one of those things is just breaking it down into bite-sized pieces that people can eat and begin to understand. So there's five steps five attributes that you need to do to change your relationship and that and that deals with five rules. So let's talk about these five deaths that you gotta play. Yeah, we started on the first one that we sent the first attribute of agility to change your relationship with during five that I've distilled. And the first one is the most important one and that is chaos. We've been talking about in an increasingly vocal World vuka drives chaos, and if you're not careful, it defaults you into living on the side of the unbroken code, which is disarmed. Analyzed chaos. It's it's a it's a mystery as to how you could ever live anywhere else because you kind of a resigned yourself to the fact that just how life is there is no other option. This is it. Well, that's not true. If I lived in disorganized Chaos on a drilling rig, I wouldn't have been a petroleum engineer for a very long at all or perhaps even worse things would have happened like the BP Gulf oil spill there is a beautiful place to live called organized chaos. You just gave a great example of it in a music studio when it's flowing. It's it's a little chaotic fast-moving but it blows it's beautiful. It's magical. It's organized chaos not disorganized chaos. So that's that's first attribute of agility to change your relationship with and you the CEO the executive the manager have to step up to be the chief chaos approached in your business off. Watching your people from this organized chaos to organized chaos, because trust me if you don't you risk the fact that nobody else will and you will continue to be stopped in a world of The Unbroken code of disorganized chaos, which is going to cost you a fortune in some way shape or form the second one the second attribute of agility to change your relationship with is if you want to live in organized chaos, not disorganized chaos, then the second attribute has to kick in which is triage priage. Now, we've heard that word a lot in recent times because we've heard, you know politicians on the TV talking about we don't have enough face masks. We don't have enough, you know, personal protection equipment off. We don't have enough respirators. We don't have enough resources to go around we often hear this in wildfires in aircraft accidents in oil spills, right we have, New Jersey. Choice except to triage our resources because demand massively exceeds Supply in a real-time unfolding high-stakes journey of a situation like a covert crisis or an oil spill or a wildfire. So triage is a word that we encounter in those kinds of environments. It's kind of the most acute form of time management priority management focused management attention management Resource Management, frankly, everything management, you can get and the challenges off the White House defaults. Most people to is it defaults them into partial Prius, they're triaging like crazy, but they're triaging inside of a commercial situational awareness. They're only dealing with the very clear and very present dangers and opportunities and opportunities the Urgent song. The fighting the fires right in front of them. If a fire chief fights a wildfire that way the only fight the fires in front of them it gets out of control real fast because if the wind changes and the weather forecast changes, I have to be ready to have stayed some resources over there to fight the fire on a new front and and if I'm not ready for that scenario until it happens, I may now be behind the curve and I can never get back in front of the curve and we lose more properties. We lose more jobs than we otherwise should have done so many many many people unfortunately get stuck in a situation of partial triage if that happened to me on a drilling rig, I wouldn't have been a choice. I am engineer for very long. I have no choice except to step up to full triage inside of full situational awareness. One of my favorite sayings from a Navy SEAL. I did a webinar with what she said. Yes maintain front sight focus with whatever you're shooting at and keep your head on a swivel. You hate to be sustaining 360-degree situational awareness or you're about to get shot in the back. And and so it's the same in business and the second roll for us step up to as everyday agile leaders is to be the chief triage facilitator in your business facilitating your people from partial month charge to full triage. If you don't do that you risk that nobody else will and the challenges that few people have had money facilitation in triage. They don't understand what it is and how to do it. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's great. I like this distinction between partial and full triage. I think that's an important distinction. And because I'll often times come across Executives and managers who say that they're triaging but really what they're doing is just triaging for that day or looking at the the fires that they have to put out. So to speak not drowning like my triage means like I don't know how to swim but somehow I'm flailing to the top every night. Yeah, right. So, you know, this idea of of. Is gaining that bigger sense of situational awareness and making sure that as an executive as a leader you are not only focusing on those things that are urgent but you're also focusing on those things that are important for the long-term and you're not losing sight of that. Not one thing. I wonder about many businesses right now is that they're dealing with these very immediate and very real concerns with covid-19 what it is doing to their business and their Workforce and yet some of them I would guarantee are losing sight of the big picture and what's going on in the long term and also not learning all the lessons right now that job Going through and not taking that into their DNA so to speak especially when we live in a nuka world and many of these things coming at us are still very often ambiguous. They're very unclear and they're certainly very unpleasant. They're not here yet. But the trouble is an accelerating Buca World, they'll be very present and very clear very soon. If that's when we start thinking about them we are going to be behind the curve and it's going to put us back into this organized chaos. If we're not careful, you know, when I was working on offshore drilling rigs. I had no choice except to be simultaneously focused on the next few minutes the next few hours tonight's operation is everything situated is everything good is everything ready for this month's massive heavy operation that we're running tonight and perhaps the weather is getting worse and perhaps some some Machinery is broken. Perhaps a supply boat is going to be late wage. I've got to be triaging the next eight ten twelve hours possibly the second night without any sleep and simultaneously I have to be triaging the operation that's going to come right after that. Perhaps in the next 3 days. We're going to move into a different phase of this world and perhaps the next three weeks. We're going to be finished with this well, and we're going to float off and go over and start the next one would be fully triaging that full spectrum of timeline issues. Otherwise if I'm so focused on the long-term, but not the short-term something will go wrong tonight. God forbid, you know, somebody will get hurt and that will cause me to have to shut down the ring. While we you know deal with that situation if I'm so focused on avoiding that tonight that I don't order replenishment of the materials I need or I don't situate, you know, the things I need for the next operation the next operation the next operation and let's suppose the weather changes us a supply boat is laid and we don't have what we need them to shut down the rig and wait. So if my triage goes partial either way around I have to shut down the rig and wait and that way the consequence of poetry ours and so on a drilling rig, it becomes very black and white very fast. Unfortunately in business. It doesn't I was on I was on drilling rigs to 300 days and nights found I had to shut the rig down once Boy, I was upset I was very upset but it we we got into a situation that could have rapidly unraveled and become unsafe. I had to make the phone call middle of the night to the duty, you know officer on Shore how you agree with my assessment and said we have to play safe my shut it down. We'll deal with it in the morning wage, um 300 days and nights once I was very upset but very few, you know, petroleum Engineers. Keep in mind. I was in my early twenties very few had a perfect record, but the the results of my truck became black and white obvious the challenging businesses. They don't I can go I can go you know minutes hours days weeks months quarters, perhaps even years and the results of my triage don't show up until some way Downstream. Yeah. So as an agile leader, you've got to be that Chief chaos coach. You've got to be that Chief triage facilitator wage. What's this next one? Yeah, so the third one is if you want to be fully triaging then you have to change your relationship with the next attribute of agility, which is in sight because in an increasingly Buca World, there is a lot of insights to gain about new and novel things coming at you that you haven't seen before she knew Luka and the challenges in business. If we're not careful. We learn way too much Insight in hindsight after the fact twenty-twenty hindsight often in crisis mode and disorganized chaos, and every time we learn something in hindsight, I want you to look in the mirror want you to ask yourself. Did I really really really need to learn that in hindsight? If I'd been working harder. Could I have learned that in foresight? Not home? And how do I train my people to learn more in foresight not find site because hindsight can be hideously expensive and potentially on a drilling rig bought a life-and-death consequences. And so the challenge is how do I step up to the third role of everyday? Aaja leaders be the chief Insight trainer in my business office training people how to move from learning in hindsight to learning in foresight and the challenges that few people have had any training about insight and how to learn in foresight. They don't know how to do it and the risk we take is this that we don't step up as the chief Insight trainer in our business. We risk that nobody else will and will just be left learning in hindsight very expensively. And so that's the third role of every day a Jarl leaders. Yeah. Absolutely. So, yep. Thing that you do is absolutely predictable right? No more, right? What are we got? Yeah. Yeah. Well and and the dog the thing I like to say is the only of surprising thing about the future is that it will be full of surprises. And so we have to we have to expect and manage the unexpected. That's what it takes to be agile. And when we do that we can change our relationship with the fourth attribute of agility, which is one of my favorites we can change our relationship with them luck is huge in a Jolly except. It's a lot less random than we think luck is where preparation meets opportunity kind of thing a heart and if we're not careful we are woefully under-prepared. We haven't been learning from foresight. We haven't been fully trained. And and stuff shows up and takes us by surprise were underprepared and things go wrong. And what do we write it off as we write it off as long as luck by accident and unfortunately, that's often where the majority can live stuff happens Sorry boss, but stuff happens off. Well, yes, I'm not saying that you can learn everything in foresight. You're going to learn some things in hindsight. But what I invite you to ask yourself is how do I change my relationship with luck by being more prepared by doing more work by thinking about more scenarios by learning more in foresight? And so I want you to step up as the chief luck consultant in your business. I want you to have all of the phrases the one-liners the quotations that you're dead. Fingertips to consult with your people about luck and Inspire them to stay in the zone of luck by Design not luck by Rod accident would most used bad luck by Design can be mostly good and the challenges that few people have had any consult in lot. They just don't understand the difference between locked by Design and luck by accident. So that's awful. Yeah, you know, it reminds me of this. I don't know who said this quote maybe one of our listeners will write in and tell us who said this but it goes something like luck is a funny thing the harder I work the more of it I seem to have right wage and it's got you know, I think it's a great great idea, you know, if it takes people out of this, you know victim mode as a leader as a as an executive and says, no you suck. Can have an influence on the world around you and have a proactive more agile approach towards your life towards your business towards the opportunities that may come that is exactly where we're headed ban. And I look forward to talking more about that in the coming sessions where indeed if we're not careful. We are resigned to living and disorganized chaos partial triage learning from hindsight bad luck by accident. We resigned that that's just the way it is and we may not use these words but unconsciously internationally we are being a victim of all of that and and it remains an unbroken code for us it remains a mystery and we think that that's all there is and yet if we can get to the other side where a Victor not a victim we begun to master this we begun to take control. This we're defining chaos. It's not defining us so that it is indeed the journey that we're on and the last attribute of agility you change your relationship with is what I call Journey orientation and that is getting oriented to a journey and what a journey is and how a journey unfolds maybe a little bit differently than we've been orange before. Hopefully the light bulb is already, not coming on that. I need to get oriented to a journey as an unfolding flow of luck and unfolding flow of insight unfolding flow of triage unfolding flow of chaos. And how do I be oriented to my journey to keep it in the zone. I want to be in of organized chaos, not default into the other's own that I don't want to be in an organized chaos and in particular, how do I how do I architect my journey differently as a combination of macroscopic stuff, which is the birth Picture and microscopic stuff which is the small picture and so I urge CEOs and Executives to step up to the fifth role of every day. Our leaders becoming the Chief Architect of their journey and in particular changing their relationship with one of my favorite topics to talk about micro-management. I probably lose your listeners at this point because hopefully everybody thinks that micromanagement has a bad reputation. It's a bad thing, right? We hear that a lot of yes, but there are two kinds of micro-management. There's bad micromanage, which is breathing down. Somebody's neck. Is it done yet? Is it done yet? What's taking so long and then good micromanagement good micromanagement is thinking ahead paying attention to the details asking the what if questions have nobody else is asking thinking about them. What if scenarios that nobody else is thinking about on a drilling rig you have to do a boatload of good micromanagement. You double check and you cash or check you pay attention to details. You don't the eyes you cross the t's you measure twice and cut once because if you don't you're going to learn in hindsight Thursday is hideously expensive and potentially with life-and-death consequences. So it's all about architecting the journey get it oriented to the journey differently and driving the the job you need the trajectory of profitability and growth of career and life and if we live in the agile zone of organized chaos and food triage and learning in fog light and locked by Design and good micromanagement. We can drive our business a trajectory onwards and upwards where we want it to go no matter what vuka comes out us dead. If we live in the fragile zone of disorganized chaos partial triage learning in hindsight luck by accident and bad micromanagement. Then things can go the opposite way and we can be on break down Journey at the very best the Flatline Journey full of frustration and and burn out and stress and that's just not a nice place to be so I bite your listeners to to tune in and and understand how to break the code and move over to the other side. It's a magical place to be that's right. That's right. You got these five rules being the chief chaos coach the chief triage facilitator Chief Insight trainer Chief luck consultant and chief Journey architect and you know what this kind of comes into and I think really supports is this idea that we're going to explore in a recurring series called agile conversation flow to cash. Oh, so what's that all about and yeah, tell tell our listeners about that. So, you know the trajectory of the journey essentially comes down to the bottom line off of the trajectory of your cash flow, right your Revenue your profit and how all that flows into cash and if you had a share price which obviously most of your listeners probably don't but if you did have a share price or at least if you think in that in terms of what your valuation then the real question is, what's happening with your share price right off of analysts is following your share price. One of the things are going to analyze is the net present value of your cash flow and they'll put some kind of spreadsheet together and they'll dial in some some parameters and variables practice, right, but they'll did juice from the trajectory of your cash flow. What's likely to happen with the trajectory of your share price or valuation now given everything that we just been talking about. What I like to do is distill down to the bottom line for your listeners that what comes first before your cash flow is what I call your conversation flow now don't misinterpret that. I don't mean we just sit around tool notice that we call this agile conversation flow and agile conversation flow is how how do we have a an unfolding flow of thoughts on questions decisions and actions and that last piece in particular opens the door to an agile mindset agile leaders understand em actions are a part of the conversation. They are a conversation with reality. If only we will get into action sooner reality comes into the conversation off. And telling us the loud and clear what's working and what's not working. The only question now is are we listening and are we looking for all we asleep at the wheel? So I'm a clue Civ of actions and we'll come back to that and talk about agile actions and minimum viable products and 1.0 2.0 3.0 and testing and verifying and fail utterly fail often fail small fell cheaply all that kind of stuff in future sessions, which is at the heart of an agile mindset. But the concept that conversation flow is an agile unfolding flow of your thoughts questions decisions and actions and how does that trajectory take shape became where your conversation flow goes your cash flow will follow it's just a matter of time. So what I like to suggest to people is if those hours to following your share price wage and they're doing their massive spreadsheet of cash flow. What they would also love to be able to do is they would love to be able to listen in to your conversation flow. They would love to wire your office wage. And why are your conference room for sound because they want to know these guys and girls talking about the right stuff. Are they talking about it so that they will be ahead of the curve in office has chaos in full triage learning from foresight with luck by Design doing good micromanagement or am I hearing that they're sort of asleep at them? You and very soon this Buca that's coming their way like an iceberg is is just going to put a hole in their Titanic and they're busy rearranging the deck chairs. I have confidence in these people and therefore I'm going to sell I'm going to recommend selling their shares and therefore their share prices going down because I predict that where their conversation flow going to cash flow will follow and their share price will follow that so it's going to be a what we call a jar see the C conversation flow the cash flow and we're going to make sure in these future sessions that we're open your listeners think about all the right things talk about all the right things proactively in their businesses not reactively there's a lot to talk about and we're going to have a lot of fun doing that and I look forward to being with you. Yeah, it's going to be fantastic, you know, and I that idea of if your analyst was listening in to all the meetings that you're having with your fellow leaders if if that's a dog Comfortable Prospect for you, then. Maybe you need to tune in st. A minute. Let me let me pop something in there been. So the thing is is and we deal with this all the time if we're able to take a cohort of the CEOs that we coached at executive teams that we coach and have them listen in a lot of them be like sounds okay to me, you know, they actually don't know but then if we showed them a company that was actually having those agile conversations, they'd be like, oh man. We were missing the boat and we did you you realize it. You gotta know what right looks like the exactly exactly and we will we will, you know get into all of that in future sessions and will articulate that will color that in will distinguish the differences Thursday and will gradually paint that picture and join up all the dots for your listeners. It's going to be a lot of fun awesome. So we got that coming up with Mike and then we also have this webinar that we're dead. To do on September 16th and will post a link to that in the show notes. So you can go check that out. Please join us for that Mike. What are we going to talk about in that webinar September 16th. We're going to do a deeper dive down the five year old chaos coach Chief Costco Chief triage facilitator Chief Insight trainer Chief consultant and chief Journey architect. We're going to do a deeper dive off going to show some visuals some moles and invite people to flick a switch in their brain and become students of agility to go on this journey from The Fragile majority to the agile minority. We'll we'll invite them to come along for the ride and they'll learn a lot more about it on that session in on September 16th of June to doing that with you guys. Yes, and also if you're not already subscribed to the Indigo podcast you need to subscribe because this is a weekly series. We're going to be doing with Mike going forward. You need you need to go ahead and sign up for that webinar soon as you get into the office or you know, you're done with your run or whatever go sign up for that webinar. You need to register to get in and then also subscribe to the podcast so you can be aware of these things that were bringing, you know, covid-19 is Wrecking everything but even why is it take covid to get people to wake up? You know what I say. I like when I when I don't learn ahead of time I go do push-ups and and and some of the listeners that regular listener know I sing am I can't be smart. At least I'll be strong. But Jack I actually am a smart right? I mean we could do our push-ups on her own time. So subscribe to the podcast so you can get this this is just going to be more content coming out here off the podcast with Mike weekly, so we'll have the regular need to go podcasts and you know, I toyed will probably call it conversation flow to cash flow agile see to see something like that for this recurring weekly off. Reason with Mike. It's going to be awesome. So let's talk about what are some of the stuff we're going to talk about in a recurring weekly series. Oh, there is so much those probably, you know, thirty five fifty a hundred things to talk about what we're going to start with three of the most important to to to get into first. And the first is going to be agile decision making money for me. It's at the heart of that conversation flow to cash flow. We said that's thoughts questions decisions and actions. The hardest aspect of that is is the decision making peace illuminated by better thinking illuminated by better questions illuminated by better agile action's going down the path but front and center is decision-making when we assess agility that the number one challenge that typically comes the top of the list from Sears and Executives is agile decision making so we're going to get into that first second after that is okay. A knife, I've got this sort of portfolio decision-making going on. How am I going to be productive in the flow of all of those decisions and all of those questions and thoughts and actions have to flow from their how do I make sure my agile productivity productivity is a challenging Concept in the best of times even more so in difficult times even more so when we need to think about it in agile terms, which we will do and then thirdly closely associated with that is if I want to be productive, I've got to be careful and assure that I'm being mentally productive because how many times have we heard stories that people are very very busy, but they're being busy fools cuz they're stuck wage a mental assumption that they're unconscious of a paradigm shift has happened and they are looking at a new paradigm world through an old Paradigm lens and so the third concept wage Mental agility and how do we make sure that we don't become a dinosaur real soon and we we stay fresh. We stay contemporary. We stay out there on the Leading Edge with the ladies were looking at the world through called our mental agility. Those are the three things that we're going to put at the front end of this on ramp and then the other you know, Thirty fifty or a hundred or come after that outstanding like so just thank you so much for being part of the Indigo podcast. I'm so excited about the work. We're going to continue doing with you. I'll let you have the last word. What are some of your final thoughts for today? Oh boy. I am just so pleased to reconnect with the two of you. We've done some great work together with clients. We share, you know, the same mindset School sets and pull sets. I'm very excited to be doing the webinar on September 16th with you again, go to Mike Richardson. Live webinars to join us there wage. And can't wait to unfold the conversation flow with you here and help your listeners turn that into cash flow. So, thanks again guys for having me and looking forward to this very much. Listening to me indigo podcast. If you like this podcast, please consider helping us by rating us on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen telling your friends about us having us on your podcast or mentioning on social media. Our website is www.indigocard.com where you can access more information about us and this episode. Thanks again, and we look forward to talking with you again song

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Cort Rudolph on Debunking the Myths of Generational Differences

The Indigo Podcast

1:05:54 hr | Last week

Cort Rudolph on Debunking the Myths of Generational Differences

"Welcome to the INDIGO PODCAST and exploration of human flourishing at work in beyond I'm Ben, BARON OF INDIGO ANCHOR and Cleveland State University, and I'm for seven of indigo anchor for more information. Please visit us at www dot indigo podcasts, dot com. Today we have court Rudolph on the PODCAST and we're GONNA be talking about generations and generational differences. Or the lack thereof this is going to be a great great podcast and we're GonNa talk about what generations are if they even exist talk about whether or not they matter. We're GONNA talk about myths about generations and generational differences and course some implications for people, leaders and organizations. So before I introduce them, just you know we actually have him on the podcast say High Court Hey, how you doing thanks for having me. Awesome. This is our pleasure. So Court Rudolph is an associate professor of industrial and organizational psychology at Saint Louis University he received. From Depaul University and his master's Hd from Wayne State University courts research focuses on a variety of issues related to the aging workforce, including applications of lifespan development theories, wellbeing work longevity, and ageism generational ISM. He is an associate editor of the Journal of Vocational Behavior Answers on the editorial review boards of the Journal of Managerial Psychology and the Journal of Occupational and Organizational Psychology and today's conversation really came about because he's got a paper. That's that's. Impress Right now at the Journal of Psychology, I came across it and I said, wow, we've got to talk to about this. So He's the lead author of an article that's titled Generations Generational Differences debunking myths in organizational science in practice and paving new paths forward. So with that being said, that's the focus of today's conversation. So I guess let's just start off with your initial thoughts about You know what motivated you write this article Tells us about your research and some of your thoughts are on generations. Yeah. So I started studying generations. Probably. About. Seven years ago I would so some years ago. Mostly. Stemming from work that I was doing regarding aging work and features of the kind of older worker workforce. And There was a couple of things here. I mean first of all I, get these reviewer comments on papers regarding age and work and the comments say something like. Yeah this is great but. Couldn't these differences or couldn't these effects of couldn't these relationships that you're finding with age be due to? Generational differences. and. So I mean the short answer is maybe I don't know. Let's go figure that out and so I started digging into that literature a little bit and You know reading a lot of the early work that was done in sociology on us, and then sort of digging through You know what? What incurable where we can find in our field in you know in psychology and it'll be in management. About generations, generational differences and figured out really quickly that the answered review or to is pretty strongly no. the these age effects are probably not generation when in fact, anything that we probably think is generational effect could be better explained either by age effect or by some. Interaction between people and the time and place that they're living and current kind of contextual contemporaneous factors and when you kind of figure out what's going on in this literature, which you figure out pretty quickly as that. there's a lot of limitations with the ability to study generations so much so that I made the statement before and I'm happy to stand by it. I don't think we've ever actually done a study generational differences because I'm not even sure it's possible to study these things. And the reason I'm laughing. Because I know the rest of the story. Yeah. Generational stuff that pervades pop psychology media linked in your dinner room conversations all of it is. It's garbage guys. Yeah, that's the that's the technical way to put. Yes. Since here on the INDIGO PODCAST, we focus on evidence based interventions for individuals and organizations. We just there was no way that we couldn't kidnap court for an hour. And get him on here and talk about it. Right. So let's let's do a deeper dive. So like what? What is a generational or what is a generation anyway yes. So there's a few different ways it'll be configured out this and I think the most classical sociological perspective on this generations are this sort of unit of slight social importance and so sociologist talk about generations as like. The sort of groupings of birth cohorts stat have gone through sort of formative life experiences early on. In their use and so classic example from Selah. Sociological Literature is the experience of the Great Depression. So there is a sort of broad studies of of of of children who grew up during the Great Depression and looking at kind of the effects of that experience. The sort of formative early experience on later life outcomes, and so generations in a sociological censor this sort of unit of study for Understanding Social Change. and. The basic principle from the sociological literature is is stemming from this early sort of thought experiment that was put out by a researcher from Sociology and Karl Mannheim in Manhattan says. something. Like would it be possible for societies to change if there weren't new generations to bring new ideas to bear On culture. and. So the idea behind generations really comes from this sort of this. This perspective can we understand culture change from the way in which new members of society bring new ideas to bear on that culture? So. Somewhere in the mix of all of this, these ideas get co-opted and so in like translating these ideas into business and management and marketing there becomes this process of labelling different generations and ascribing qualities to these generations so that we can differentiate them that we can segment markets so that we can said that there are you know differences between members of one generation versus another in terms of values or attitudes or behaviors you know. Yeah, you say the first word that comes to mind millennial Avocado Toast Avocado Toast. Millennial, they're forty years old retiring from the military. Service in over a decade of war. Come minded all. Exactly, yeah. So, they become become these really convenient rappers that we can put around this really complicated thing which is everybody gets older and everybody experiences age change. And everybody has this fundamental motivation to understand other people's behavior. and. When we have these sort of universal's, we need to simplify some of the complexity there, and so generations are really convenient way of doing that we get these sort of labels and prototypes of what a member of one generation versus another generation looks like or does or thinks or know values, and then we can. We can draw lines between them, which help simplify otherwise really complicated things like this really messy process of development, which is different for everyone or the changing nature of society, which is experienced different by everyone as well, and so we kind of intersect those two things aging and culture change. Then we get this idea of generations and. It becomes it becomes sort of universal thing that people kind of accept as being truth you know generations exist. So we might as well talk about that right? Right. So it's kind of a cognitive shortcut that we use to try to think about the world and our place in it and who we are even, and you know this is really been a pervasive thing we were prepping for this episode So court. And I both went to graduate school around the same time period and I was thinking back to you know early on in that experience to seven thousand there there was really starting to be this burgeoning at least in the popular side of things in the Popular Press about managing millennials and and things like that. It always struck me as odd as different species or something and but it has been pervasive. There are lots of people who Have built entire consulting practices and sold books around this whole idea, and it just fascinates me that this is persistent. I. Agree I use this analogy always that you can like walk through an airport bookstore? And then look at the shelves and some you know three or four of these books at least are GonNa be about features of managing generations in some capacity and like you know that's like that's like to me the. Prototype of what? WHAT IS POPULAR BUSINESS CRAFTS? It's like you got your walk into the airport. We're getting a bottle of water and you're getting a book about managing millennials I, feel. You know that's where that's where this sort of stuff comes out. So yeah, no I and the funny thing about this lake emergence of this idea that all we need to manage millennials is that you can trace that back in. So there's there's books from the eighties about managing numbers of generation acts and you can find references going back to the fifties about managing members of this sort of like emerging boomer generation as. Well, not not nearly as formalized and not nearly as much of an industry around it as well. But yeah, you can go online and you can hire yourself generations consultant to come into your organization and tell you how to how to how to do this that and the other thing to to manage members of different generations and also manage the differences between them which I guess is sort of the other issue to. Bed and that's that's our moneymaker. Managing. NUMSKULLS complete guide we'll make a million dollars. But I I used to think when this stuff I came out and they're like well. A. Pervasive. IDEA IF I can learn it, this is like the worst click bait on the Internet you know. Cure your foot fungus with windex in this one easy trick. Right and this is the managerial version of that, which is garbage because underlying and my idea as this idea that if I can just say the magic words, I can get people to be a cog in the wheel. I have them to be a ton of Matonse in my organization and that's bull that is just such Baloney. It's ridiculous. So wait a minute. Your company can't retain its talent. It must be them. If I knew the magic words let worse that introspection of my companies garbage or hand, these guys may be. grabbed, capitalism a little bit more fiercely developed a skill set that they're able to print cash with elsewhere and like some of this stuff that we've seen, it's like, Hey, listen we don't want to be able to keep them forever. We actually don't have that big of an organization, but if we just retain them for two years because we need somebody to do this numb schoolwork and there's all this other stuff that goes into it, but the shortcut is blaming a generation. And and at that is just stinking thinking it's shortcut And it's back. Yeah, and I'll just quote you know courts writing back to him here because I love this piece from the beginning part of his article in which he says, and I quote indeed a recent consensus study published by the National Academies of Sciences Engineering and medicine concluded that, and this is quoting again from that categorizing workers with generational labels like baby boomer or millennial define their needs and behaviors is not supported by research and cannot adequately inform workforce management decisions end quote. I think that's a really key thing for us to be thinking about here in terms of why are we treating people differently based upon some generational I'm using the little thing here right differences. It's just a it's a pervasive myth that really needs to be exterminated in my view absolutely now I think there's some cohort approaches like people that graduated during the last economic downturn like they showed like lifetime earnings can be built on when you happened in history like if you were bored during the black plague, you had x percent chance of dying. Okay. That's fine that's a cohort and took place in time fat. But let's talk about some lenses by which we can view generations. Right just like one of them is the social construction what what is that? Yeah. So the Sun, the social construction perspective social construction as perspective on generations really stems from this idea that we need a way to rectify the fact that as you said, the evidence base for this is really not existent but everyone loves this idea. Right. So how do we? How do we rationalize the fact that generations exists in people's minds? But that they don't actually manifest in effect work behavior or or values, or whatever, and so the social construction has perspective tries to put some some sort of a framework around understanding. What the value of generations is people. So the first thing that recognizes that we made these things up. And so by recognizing that we may be we made these things up because we needed to simplify a really complicated issue, and so the first ten years basically generations are social constructions we made them up. Through various mechanisms, this is supported by media. This is supported by you know, sort of basic fundamental psychological processes related to stereotyping and prejudice prejudice, prejudice, and discrimination. So, if we acknowledge that generations don't really exist then we start to ask different questions about them and the questions we need to ask a construction has lens are why people like these things? Why do they apply them and what is the consequence of applying? and. So we can start to ask questions about. What supports this continued focus on generations How how do people learn about generations? What are the sources of information that lead people to to form these these sort of broader pictures of what members of one generation versus another? Look like. So that's one perspective. So social construction has perspective basically is, is you know, hey, given that we know. That that generations don't. Hold out much water as kind of a unit of study. You know what we do at this this pervasiveness of generations, how do we make sense of it and so the the other kind of piece of this is that you know recognizing the social construction of it because social constructivist have perspective on decorations gets us to a place where we can start to ask questions about you know why people use generations as as as kind of a sense making tool. And why people turn generations as a way of making sense of really complicated features of social environments And yeah. So so I mean there's all different related variables in kind of intertwined within this perspective. One time wanted to look at it sort of generational identity and sort of the strength with which people can identify with one generation versus another. So this isn't saying. Generation objectively exists, but basically, you can ask people, Hey, do you believe that you're a member of this generation? And what are the implications of that belief system? Friend who says I'm elder millennial. So she wants to be hip to the technology but not dumb as those numbskulls. Will the reason the reason we started pushing for? This is kind of interesting. So you ask the question before about like, why why did I start doing this work and it comes from teaching actually so I teach undergraduate personnel psychology. and I have students give presentations about different features of personnel, systems, and and one one in particular that students usually talk about recruitment methods that organizations can use to attract new members and more than once I. had students that would get up and give a presentation and they would say something like You know as a member of this generation, I want this this this and this from an employer. And the first I heard it didn't you know I was like you know what are you talking about at the second time I heard it I was like. That's the same thing I heard before and the third time his pattern here, and so the question is. where. Do People get these ideas from and so I just started asking people like, why do you think that as a millennial? You're you're seeking flexibility. And the answer invariably invariably was well I've been told that millennials want flexibility. And it's like wait a second. So you're constructing this picture of your own identity as this member of generation, and that's changing the way that you're seeking out information about organizations you want to join, and then it just becomes this sort of weird cycle of reinforcing these ideas from you know this is what the organization thinks people want. This is the message that we're using to recruit people holy crap. I'm a millennial I might as well join that organization that that favors flexibility. Oh but by the way. Nearly everybody wants lex ability. Right. And Everybody wants these sort of core features of jobs. Autonomy and flexibility and feed that for performance and to feel like their work as meaningful and it has nothing to do with generations at all. It's just that like some hr recruiter figured out something wants about job design and then translated that into a generational difference and everybody thinks that millennials. Want all this stuff or members of another generation don't or whatever, and then tailor their practices to that. And it's not it has no basis in actual reality. Well, wait a minute I just googled what millennials want from work and the first thing that shows up in the result what millennials want from work coal and seven research back truth research. Maybe, they're sitting on a pile of old journals while they just. Puke out this stuff but a culture fit. Aligned personal and organizational values timely and regular recognition ability to learn and rise through the ranks who doesn't want that. You know I woke up today I turned fifty guys and all of a sudden I don't care about recognition at work ability to get promoted. That's No I mean, that's the other really fascinating thing about this is that people people see this as a staged process right or? I mean that's that's sort of implying that there's like these jumps in age differences. Right. But also people make these like really they kind of put up these walls between generations and they don't recognize that like. You know in psychology we talk a lot about variability between and within groups ride we're really interested in the distribution of individual differences like I have. No doubt. That, there is somebody that doesn't want that much time be in their jobs like there are some days honestly where I wish someone would just tell me what to work on. Because I'm sitting there you know whatever? That's an individual difference. That's going to vary across generations and there's going to be more variability in references work. Features you know within and between generations that aren't accounted for but we just say O'Neill's want this boomers. You know that doesn't it doesn't make sense. Quickly falls apart. Yeah. So another lens that you've mentioned in your paper and then we've talked about when we were prepping for this episode through as we can view this idea of generations is the lifespan development type of you. What's what's that about? Yeah. So the lifespan development you comes from kind of core theories in developmental psychology, and so one of the things that I do in my work is to try to bring these theories over from from developmental psychology so that we can come to a better understanding of the role of age in aging in the workplace. And the lifespan of view takes a pretty different take on the role of age in a workplace than the generations view would have us believe the sandy was based on this idea that development occurs as a lifelong process. and. So we get rid of all these ideas of kind of stages of development. We we inside talk about Inter individual variability in kind of factors that predict changes and trajectories of development over time. So courtenay's idea is, is this idea that we really need to consider individual differences in development rather than thinking about groups of people as cohorts and the generations model tends to focus on grouping people into these broad cohort groups and then we label them and then we treat them differently right and so the generations model doesn't really fit with what what developmental psychology would say about the role of age age related change over time. we recognize this model that there's a lot of variability that needs to be accounted for within the developmental course, but we also look at things like. Factors that modify development, and so for example, there's a recognition that contemporaneous events like like you're suggesting before growing up. or coming of age during a recession and entering the job market during a recession that might have a profound impact on individuals likely does right but that's not going to manifest as a generational difference. That's more sort idiosyncratic developmental sort of shock that would change the course of development for some bug. Yeah. If your Mommy bought your way into Harvard and your now rotting in jail, you may be on a different. Than people that have to earn their own way. Right. and. That's really the problem with generations is that it's really top down right? Like something happened. It affected everybody in the member every member of this cohort, and then it's just sort of it's this heterogeneous process that that sort of followed them through life. It's like this the shadow of being a member of specific court and this has been called various things. It's been called Cohort determinism. It's been called the generations trap. So falling into this idea that like you know just because everybody went through the last recession doesn't mean that everybody came out of that. Worse or better or whatever people find their own way through those types of contemporaneous. Exotic shocks so to say. And so the generations perspective. Give gets us to a place where we can talk about aging and work, and we can talk about actionable. Things we can do to manage an aging workforce that doesn't require us to label people on the basis of generations. Assume you sort of homogeneous processes that flows and thinking about generations. It gets us to a place where we can talk about age directly. Or indirectly by categorizing people into younger versus older generations, groups it opens up the doors to a whole bunch of other research questions but again, I mean it has a lot of practical value in that we can actually translate the suggestions from lifespan perspectives into hey, what should we do to manage older and older and aging workforce or what should we do to manage workers across the entirety of the work life Stan rather than thinking about we got to focus on just the millennials because of whatever assumptions were GonNa make about what they want or because somebody in HR bought one of those horrible books at the airport yeah. They were. You know it just strikes me as so odd and it always has the the labeling that happens with regard guard generations because you know we we we recognize that that's not a great way to think about other groups in society either it let's even say, okay, generations exists. Let's let's put that out there even though that's dubious at best right? Even if they do exist putting broad labels on such a gigantic group of people is doesn't work very well. We. Don't we? Just discrimination yea. Well with. When we refer to different races and ethnic groups that doesn't work really great when we talk about different genders. So let's maybe not do that with generations right Ex- exactly. Yeah. So I mean the funny thing is right. So aging. is a universal experience for most people who are lucky, right? Hopefully, we're all going to get. It took me a minute. I'm slow but I'm working. I'd say that again. So I mean hopefully, we're all GONNA get old right everybody some aren't. But truthfully that's one of the few universal experiences the process of aging. And so. We don't you know not everybody is a member of one race versus another not everybody identifies with a specific gender versus another, and so we can. We can make differences between those relatively easily and it's pretty socially unacceptable thing to do. Right. But Age? Open season that's going for it. I mean you know and then. We can say, well, you know that's augist. We can say like, well, you know classifying older people as whatever litany of serotypes you watch you that's Asia's but but. What's actually let's do something a little bit different. Let's couch this in terms of generations. Now, we're removing age component. We're talking about generations which doesn't classify individuals. It's classifying groups that are socially agreed upon. And so then we can say, well, millennials do this and boomers do this and really what we're saying is that older people do this and younger people do this and so it's really it's really thinly veiled ageism I mean it's it's almost like the sort of modern form of ages and where we can just by being ages on the basis of saying no no I'm. Not Augist This has to do with generations. Some old people are hip to instagram and can check their email. Right some old people don't Ford You dad if you're listening to this. Jail every piece of. That they get into their inbox. But you see how easy it is. Immediately. This is basically socially sanctioned discrimination and it's not just and these pop books. It's like it's an HP are Harvard business. Review which a lot of people look at it. It's like Whoa. Hey, this is a big institution. They got a lot of you know one of the elite business schools they've got ta they can have any professor they want for the most part. HBO had some articles that have have missed it, right? Yeah. So each Has had a few articles about this and you see these top and then they also, but to be fair I mean they've also had articles where they go. We'll wait a second guys hold on. But then that super confusing too because you've got two papers in front of you in one says something exists someone says something doesn't exist and which one are you going to go? You're going to go with the one that society says exists or you're going to go with this sort of wait a second hold on a second let's think about this whatever. View at the time whatever justified or whatever. The money I've already spent on a consultant to tell me that they exist or whatever. We already have a budget for this program so it must it must be important trait. This is this is so important because we're talking from the top fouts of where working. Practitioners and business people go to get information and there's Bologna put out and we're dealing writ large as a society with all kinds of well, how do we define bias? How do we maybe up Ruta and it for the better Hey, discrimination is bogeyed like maybe you don't mind discriminating against older people until you need a job in your seven, right you know all these things I think like at a thirty thousand foot level, we can say, Hey. This is garbage, but then we get down to the. Level, it's got to execute. All of a sudden, all this stuff flies apart at we are executing the same garbage. So in a Harvard knows about bias and all this stuff yet here it's so insidious it's like eggs A. Right somebody has an egg allergy, you can say I'm eating this cake I can't taste the eggs in there. But there's eggs baked all in it and it's just ubiquitous. You can't. We baked a cake of bias and discrimination that it's GonNa take smart people like court to help us. Get us out of here. Yeah. Well yeah that's true. I mean it's it's it's very deeply ingrained. You know it's funny I a psychology department It's There's actually. So here's how deeply ingrained is so. Across the street literally from my building, our business school. and. You can take a class there I'm. Differences at work. So like you're teaching this across the Street Court Jab Tenure you're not going to get fired from this. Assignment tenured at school. No away. I. I. Bring this up every chance that I get and so but you can if you do a little a little googling for this, there's this. This isn't the we're not the only offenders it just. The day that I google that because I was trying to make the point like, Hey, this is this actually taught in business curricula you don't like is that Do and I was like. Wait a second. There's this. I. Hit and I was like Oh you guys. You guys. These are these are people here when you do it and so yeah, it's interesting. We're building education policy around this. There's a lot of discussion right now in higher ed about. Do, we need to modify how we how we recruit. UNDERGRAD. Students on the basis of generational things. Do we need to attend to to differences in in their? You know their preferences for Education and Probably not I would. I would think now based on the broader literature on this, but there's a lot of money being dumped into definite answer, your marketing tire marketing all the analytics should get from Google analytics if you develop a social media like, okay, we're looking at age we're looking at sex any data point somehow meaningful so I can sell you my solution and actually. Like here's the problem as people are looking for shortcuts thinking, and the short cutting thinking is getting us the bias and discrimination that were saying and racial issues in that are coming to the fore right now it's all across the board and wonder what how could somebody be deceived by some of these like say racist thoughts while here's an example of our own bias that it's. Baked into our society structurally I e entire lines of business study and work like marketing. Around it and we're stuck here. Yeah. Well, I mean, like the marketing stuff is really fast I just I honestly. Think. Someone made the decision at one point that it's just really hard to explain what a standard deviation is to someone else. And so if we don't if we just bucket. To explain that variability, it's this this this and S it's not you know this range and so you know. People like that people like that simplification and I it on the surface. It's really benign. If you dig into it a little bit. You know there is a lot of possibilities for this to Kinda go south on folks so You give this example of you know millennials are retiring. Yeah. So I mean like if you look at the cutoffs for these generation groups and that's a whole messy thing in another itself, the youngest members of the millennial court. So to say typically are that's that's like. I should say oldest members excuse me they were born nineteen eighty depending on who you read right and so it's twenty twenty s at least folks are turning forty. So all these millennials who are disrupting worker actually tick technically considered to be older workers as defined by the age discrimination in Employment Act. And so? So, millennials are now older workers officially some at some point this year they started to become older worker everybody who's turning forty this year who was born in nineteen eighty is technically a millennial. If you believe what Pew says, one of these organizations that sanctions these labels. On. That actually brings us to a great part of your paper where you talk about these different myths and ten of them in the paper and I thought maybe we probably can't go through all ten but I think we can just pick a couple in a little bit about them. You know the one that you just alluded to. So it's perfect. Segue is you label is myth number three, which is that generational labels and associated age ranges. Are agreed upon that. That is a myth. So there's there's seems to be a wide discrepancy in how he even define these generations. Yeah absolutely. So one way to think about this is to consider how individual research papers defined different generations, and so if you take papers by five research teams that are all purporting to study generational differences, there's a pretty good chance that each one of those papers is gonNA use slightly different age ranges to define. Labeled Generations millennials are boomers or whatever. and. That's a big problem right That's a pretty big liability in science. If the way that I measure something is different than the way that you measure something and we're GonNa drive similar conclusions on the basis of those different measurements. Then you might say, well, wait a second here. What are we actually holding constant as part of that we scale something That's sort of a fundamental premise of psychological measurement. If you're not holding that generational grouping constant, you're working with a moving target. So there's there's there's very little consistency among these. And I love to watch people talk about that because they're like, well, you weren't organization says that these are the cutoff said, another organization says that these are the cutoffs and You know. Sometimes. They're based on doubt sometimes they're just like ten year grouping. Yeah. So there's a there's a ton of variability NAT Now, they're definitely not agreed upon they one little who cares you know it's interesting. The tells US something about people about differences between you know sort of these fuzzy groupings of people on the basis of age at another level. We don't really know much about generations if we can actually define what they are in terms of when they begin an. Yeah Yeah. So which leads us to the thing of generations don't exist except in our minds. Except in our I mean, this is like a horoscope guys for businesses. No I don't believe in Bologna horoscopes stops cancer Leo whatever. But I believe in these generational differences than forecast who you're GONNA be as a worker through your life cycle. Maybe, maybe there are generational differences in in bt. I scores. Yeah. So I've actually seen, I've actually seen papers on us and I can't. Yeah. I've seen papers people do this right so. So they'll take they'll take generations it gets it gets it gets studied in a variety of context. I think I actually have seen the generations in be paper. Oh. My Gosh and Yeah Gosh. That's horrible. We made up the worst thing we could think of and Lo and behold quarter. It's like it's true guys. Well. No I've said this before, but I mean, like in psychological research you you get some leeway with with how your creative in the way that you set up your your theories in your models. Right. But like honestly you can only really make one thing. and. So you know generations are made up. and. Whatever I mean I love talking about the whole thing. That's super made up right like. You can't make up both the predictor and the criterion Annette Model. I'm sorry you I know. Yeah. So it's it's interesting. As, well, you can learn about yourself and I'm like well, you know peyote Indian sweat lodge to. Yeah. Well I mean that's interesting. Right. So there's there's the these are management stats, and that's the other way we've talked about generational differences is that there is like management has this this strong culture of of ascribing to fads? And he'll like it used to be Ti and desk and you know you know kind of sort of typology types of sensors personality in those still exists there there around to You know for a while we were real ended like leader's emotional intelligence in like what that means and such. And then you know. So generations are sort of like a subtext. There's there's all. These all of these sort of pseudoscientific fatty elements management like they intersect at some level. So it's it's actually pretty interesting I've done a little bit of work kind of digging into this sort of leadership development generation side of things, and there's just some really fascinating suggestions about. How, we should develop members of different generations using like. Interventions that are based on having leaders ride horses. And so they called happy. E Klein based leadership development. There's something about the interaction between members of different generations. I'm sort of like whatever. Whatever the experience of riding a horse does to use psychological and I'm not even joking this is serious. This is like published research. So yeah, like I said I feel like you get to make up one side of the equation when you're psychological research but. Not both now you can't. Rely On. That's right. Well I. Think you Kinda brought us to what you label in your paper as myth number six, which is. That generations needs to be managed at work that this is a myth leaders probably don't need to care about or be concerning themselves with managing people in terms of different generations, right? Yeah, exactly. So so there's levels to this at least almost. So the one hand you have the research suggests that he's there's there's no generational differences to manage. So you're managing since of Stanton phenomenon or or worse you're creating the phenomenon, right? So I'm gonNA treat you differently because I. Assume you're a millennial. So let meals are pan right there narcissistic and they're entitled and and I think your tie I'm in a business school and I'm a new leader. That's probably not true but whatever you know I, I've been told that millennials are going to act narcissistic Lii in. Narcissistic behavioral act very entitled. Right. So. You know what? I'M GONNA do. I'm GONNA treat you that way and I'm going to be surprised when you act that way. Right. So if you treat people like they should be narcissistic and that they should be entitled, you shouldn't be surprised if you seek out those differences, you're gonNA find them. So it's kind of one of these social psychological. Principles of. You know of the way in which you you interact with people affects their behavior. Sort of pygmalion effects China, the thing, right so But yeah, no, there's no differences to manage, and so the implication is, is like at one level maybe it's pretty benign like, Oh, you're managing stuff it doesn't exist. So maybe just kind of wasting time but at another level, if you start to treat people differently based on false assumptions that you make about them. That leads you to kind of a bad spot you know, and so we are starting to see. Eighty eight discrimination in employment at cases. Brought that have mentioned of these ideas so. People are saying like I was told that we're an organization that wants to hire millennials but I am a member of a different older generation, and so I was passed up for promotion or something like that, and so these cases these legal cases are being brought on the basis of age discrimination in Employment Act. But the way that that age discrimination is being communicated to to the to the. People bringing these cases is is. You know through generations Lenz. So you're not saying I might hiring me because you're you're saying we're trying to recruit millennials, and so that's sort of subtle subtext. So there's no there's no generations to really manage here. It's unnecessary liability in some. Sure. Well, another myth that you mentioned is that members of younger generations are disrupting work. You know they're the ones out there that are you know. Shake things up or whatever but that seems to not be the case necessarily. So. This has a couple of this. So all these myths have some basis in some reality right and so this kind of goes back to an idea that I discussed earlier, which was that be kind of early conceptualization of of of generations from sociological perspective is you need New People to change culture. And so culture theory recognizes this this as well. So organizational culture theory recognizes this as well like you know, shine talks about you know changing cultures to change culture is you need to have new ideas, new ideas come with people. All right and so this idea that members of younger cohorts are changing work probably isn't wrong but there's all of these sort of. Speculation that there's something unique about the way that this young generation is his changing work and the funny thing is that you can trace that back in history. I mean like if you go back and read accounts of what youth does to institutions, there's mentions of young young new ideas, young people with new ideas, changing social institutions over time, and so there's a remarkable cyclical nature to this. Things are changing. Could we blame? We blame the New People? Now. But let's Say you're an organization and like you look at the fortune five hundred. They're not the same cohort year after years some of them die and go, and this is like the idea of the good idea ferry at scale. This is a whole generation of good idea theories that are going to change how things going on and it's like wait a minute. What organization doesn't want good ideas. You will die on the capital capitalist vine if you're not evolving and and you're not gonna get those new ideas continually from that same numskulls you have right now you have to refresh like I mean who wants to go back to having you know buggies buddy whips who wants to go back to the model Ford I'd love the I don't know how my parents raise kids without an IPAD because if we're at a nice. Here watch this so I can have ten minutes of eating with your mom right and like new ideas are awesome. Yet there's this thing where like. Change like we also know that from the literature didn't change changes challenging on us. We can't continually stay in a growth cycle and maintain our humanity. So the goal for organizations is to maintain this. This tug of war is actually a positive thing not a negative thing. Yeah no I completely agree unlike these disruption disruption idea is everywhere with generations. It's not just within organizations I mean. You can go on Google type in millennials are killing. Dot. Dot Com. Right. You know and you can get this list that like every hit is like some way of life or product classification or industry that they're killing like baseball or process cheese are high heels or You know and so it's like this this this this this disruption. I just googled it. So I got a couple of hits for you have to throw. By the way this is not when you mentioned, but millennials are killing mayonnaise. Are Killing the diamond industry millennials are killing, change the doorbell industry. Plenty of. Had to interject that. Yeah. So you know and I think this kind of brings us to the last method talk about in the paper and I encourage all of our listeners to go check out the paper. We'll post a link to in the show notes but this last myth is that talking about generations is largely benign and I think it'd be great for us to talk a little bit about why there's some non benign features of referring to generation using this kind of lends to seeing people in the workforce. Yeah absolutely. So As we discussed before I mean these ideas. At some level seem really benign they do they see well, you know all we're doing is we're talking about generations guys it's not a big deal but has suggested and we talked a little bit about this is a really thinly veiled way of of of couching ageism or like conveying, communicating about ageism. That's really socially sanctioned, and so one of the things that we've tried to do in thinking about, how do we talk about the risks of generational thinking is to try to advance the idea of of what we call. Generational. ISM. Which is an ISM like racism or sexism it's basically like guys if we if we if we take this idea and we you know try to apply generational labels to everybody. We're going to start to treat people differently as a result of that, and so if we think about generational thinking as as an ISM. Then maybe that'll change the way that people see this sort of otherwise socially accepted way of of talking about age or thinking about age. making it a little less socially acceptable to do. So but yeah, no, I mean it's it's. It's one of these things where. I think that you know if you if you were ranting about. You know if you read a buzzfeed article about how older people were killing something or how you know how they were these massive differences between older and younger people that aren't really well-founded. Maybe that would maybe that would spark some attention from folks that, hey, that's a little bit of Asia sentiment. But if you if you say it's boomers versus millennials. kind of protects people from from from the criticism I. Think a little bit right all right. It's stop I don't like is negative. The things I do like is positive, and so let's let's just that's just address court a few bullet points. Why should we care about ageism other than it feels nice and fluffy what does that concrete reasons? We should give a rip while. So where do you want me to start? So long sweet. Well, if you're trying to make a business case, it's illegal. To discriminate against. Workers, who are aged forty up now younger workers aren't protected by that. So if you're if you're less than the age of forty. Clan Age. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't occur. It just means that's not a protected class on the other side of this If you WANNA maintain a diverse workforce, it kind of gives you to have a climate that is age inclusive my own research on kind of age inclusive. Climates age inclusive HR tract houses suggested if you can develop the systems that are age inclusive that actually benefits employee wellbeing regardless of age and so organizations that have more age inclusive human resources practices, which is to say that they're human resources practices that are beneficial to members of the workforce of all ages that don't single out younger versus older employees that tends to lead to higher levels of perceived age inclusivity right so Everybody gets these benefits. Everybody gets these these affording says regardless of their age I feel this is a pretty good place to work. Maybe I WANNA stay there long term but also those are the types of things that produce. Positive health benefits and wellbeing benefits for workers across across the workplace fan and so there's this sort of legal pragmatic as we shouldn't discriminate against people who are over forty because you know we're GonNa get sued but also, Hey, if we if we have a better more age inclusive work environment. Everyone's going to benefit as a result that has long term and there's other research has suggested there's performance. Performance benefits from doing the same thing Regardless of worker I. Think we can think about. You, know other things as well like. Socially we should strive to have a more inclusive work environment in general and I think age is sort of a missing component of that. But the other thing we don't really talk about that much. It's sort of the intersections among different categories of. older females, older black females sort of those sort of combinations of qualities of people lead to different types of work experiences, different risks for marginalization such. So again, being kind of one of these universal experiences, everybody gets older everybody ages right. But how is that experience different for you know members of the workforce who have? Different qualities, men, verses, women, you know members of different minorities are. So I think you've you've already started taking us into some implications here and I think you just mentioned some great ones for organizations. You know that there is this liability that you can have in terms of age discrimination. You obviously don't want to create some policies or practices that are based upon generations right? Because we don't even know if they really exist and we have concluded based on the research that that doesn't really matter and I love your idea of these age climates right having an inclusive climate for people across the spectrum of different ages. That's a good thing. So we drop down to the individual level What do you think are maybe some implications for your research and some of these ideas around generations and the lack thereof kind of have for individuals. So, individuals can be thought of and I guess in a couple of different ways I mean in terms of you know, let's think about like decision-makers we can talk about different stakeholders within organizations kind of what these. What these ideas have but I guess, you know the one one level to to think about is sort of individual kind of decision makers within organizations. Maybe people who are setting policies maybe people who are thinking in terms of you know, what? How would we tailored environment to be you know age inclusive? And there's a few different things we can talk about me like at one level. If we're GONNA talk about tailoring organizational processes to age sensitive. We need to recognize that at some level. There are some age related differences in like physical and cognitive abilities right. But we can tailor work processes to account for that, and so you know as as workers get older their physical capacities on outrage ten decline somewhat while let's design work that actually can account for that. And I think for individuals what I would recommend is let's not we've gotTA stop talking generations here. We need to start talking about what are we going to do because here's the reality. The workforce getting older. Even. Even in you know kind of emerging economies, the workforce is getting older. Across the globe that's a universal fact and pension systems. Are declining right and so everyone is going to need to work longer. Regardless. Of where you live, there's a pretty it's pretty clear that there is a an economic imperative to extend working lives beyond the traditional sixty five you know average retirement age. If. We're going to make this thing work clung term, and so we need to develop systems that let that happen. And so the way to do that is. Determined. Right. But I mean like one level we need to reduce the sort of. Age Discrimination. Component which can drive people out of the workplace. Yeah, we need to build systems that allow for for us to. Take advantage of all of the opportunities that come with having an older workforce knowledge retaining that knowledge long-term. If someone's been with the company for thirty years, they've seen every different way that you've tried to solve that problem. But if they retire because they're feeling pushed out because they've been told that there are boomer and we're trying to recruit millennials that talent leaves that knowledge leaves the organization. What are we doing that? So that kind of stuff I mean that's the that's the advice I would give stop thinking in terms of individual speaking in terms of of generations and start thinking in terms of how do we leverage what we know about all the benefits of an aging workforce and Taylor specifically to you know changes that we noticed lifespan development changes in sort of like you know the fluid cognitive capacities and changes in physical capacities. How do we Taylor work to that You know to be able to to take advantage of the fact that. Older workers want to work longer they need to do and we all need to, and so that's that's an inevitability for everyone coming down the Pike for sure. Yeah Right. So I for the new ideas about the one percent, the newer ideas, right? Let's go get. There's a resource conflicts right between the younger generation and the older generation. This idea while we're in this hot mess in our country right now because of what you guys lay down you Jack Wagons yet. If we know anything you guys would have knowing what they knew. You're the saint. There wasn't enough evolutionary timespan for you have different cognitive functioning between the boomer to the millennials the generation see right and so it's. It's like the land of the dark elves did you want it to be like kill or be killed? You know it's like, okay. You're old now goes starved to death you just couldn't hack. Individuals, I met adventure during the early days of Zuckerberg, all these venture capitalist. Well, we need a young entrepreneur that wears a Hoodie have you seen any of those around because young entrepreneurs with hoodies do amazing things and arguably there's all these business models that could come out of Silicon Valley and other places from older more indepth industry knowledge, but we miss that. There are bias at at the individual level right. Term. Yeah. No I. Agree I mean it's it's it's it's definitely a challenge like I said it's sort of a natural process and you know we love classification people love. Reducing complicated information into buckets you know it's it's it's pretty natural overcoming. That is a challenge for sure It doesn't help that it's so. You know supported that there's so much media attention around generational differences and others so much. Like. It doesn't help that were teaching MBA's that these things exist and that they're going out there doing. You know what I mean like that's Station raining about discrimination on a whole thing and they got it. You know getting way better when it comes to race and stuff, but it's not a suspect. There's a plank in their own eye on discrimination that that's at doesn't even take hardly anything for us to pull back the veil here now to start to see does stop right. So and one thing you mentioned earlier court I thought was really good. Was You know a lot of these things that we talk about or that people say oh Millennials, wall flexibility autonomy, all these things that we know right pretty much everybody wants and you know I think a good point here maybe an implication for leaders out there is that eight focus on those things that we know work for a lot of people most of their lives and you know people do like to have some variety and autonomy and significance in their work and so forth. So those are you know no person out there is is going to respond negatively to a leader who? Values, their contributions and cares about their wellbeing. Good stuff, right Basics out there. We heard on the web was I'm so glad Kovic here. Maybe some of these old people will just die off and I remember. That and being like what in the world? This is not. This is Sparta and we're GONNA, kick our old people down a whole. What is what is what is wrong here? sometime in mid March started like going through the headlines daily on this stuff and kind of focusing on how how is. How is Cova being framed at worked in terms of age in work? So. We actually did a little bit of a kind of a it's it's rather cursory, but we have a paper where we kind of went through all these headlines and basically, what are what are the themes ear in? It's exactly that I mean we were seeing a lot of this like you know how is this generational and they think it's silly stuff like well, you know what? These millennials had wanted flexibility the whole time, and now they get to work from home. That's going to benefit them and it's like well, no, it's going to benefit everybody. This isn't this has nothing to to if the preference that people brought. That preference doesn't even exist. There's A. Ton of like you know speculation about the generational consequences of coded for work. And it's It's a pandemic by definition it affects everyone. But the actuarial say that you're over a certain age, you are much larger chance of dying. And that's just like an macular degeneration like as you get older your eyes for a lot of people well, Arctic. Obama's millennials are chilling the knee replacement industry to yeah. and. Good. So we're talking about leaders here and wanted to thank all this stuff. We've said it. It's short cut thinking, and so if you're at the top of the organization looking down, you don't want leaders shortcut it thinking, right That's it's like we said before it's stinking thinking. So if they're just applying some easy paint by the numbers management leadership style, that's not the kind of leader you want your organization. If you've got that kind of leader in your organization, which most of you do, right you're going to have to do some teaching and training on this. You can't just take the how to manage millennials and three easy steps. This is about sensing a sensing function of saying who is this person? They're not just a cohort. My team is a cohort at tools that I use to go from director to VP. No that's a wrong answer that's going to be bad for your organization and out you know things like perceived organizational support because your team can smell that a mile away. So if you're at the top, you need to make sure your leaders below if you are a leader and don't want to get fired as people start to wake up to these realities, you need to treat everybody as an individual and say rather than, Oh, well, you're a millennial. So surely you want a beer keg in a football table. Why don't you just ask them what they need hanging Chris Chris Chris everybody wants a beer keg. Eh. I that's that's. See My beer keg is back there in the back and I can't see. What's on tap court. Actually. I think it's full of Lacroix right now. Sparkling water by the KEG. Yes. Guy Says a thing you've got to pay attention and start asking your people what they need. You need to develop programs don't just buy them off the shelf. Some guy looks good or Gal that looks good into sue right yet. Kaoh. I'm always worried about people that have. have an agenda and also stand to lose if at agenda falls apart right and so like. This this is an area where there's a ton of that. You know there's gurus that you can hire to come into your organization and fix all of your generation's problems or you know maybe just give a one hour seminar about. What members of different generations want and like I think that it's interesting I mean these these ideas we seen these ideas and talk a little bit about these ideas. They, these individuals stand to lose a lot if. If more people really understood what the actual science was behind scuff. On I think we're starting to see change I. Mean the National Academies Report. Should be influential I would? earlier, there was a report by the Center for evidence based management that reached basically the same conclusion and so we we I see paper is where we look at different literatures and come to similar conclusions Some hoping that there is a bit of. A mass of of new kind of ideas behind this sort of help to to translate what the actual scientists here. But I mean to the extent that people like this stuff and to the extent that people are selling these ideas I think people will still buy them and so We got to focus a little bit like one one area that I think is really interesting. Let's let's focus on the guru's let's focus on what people do when. They're trying to sell a but the evidence for A. Doesn't exist it snake oil right to some extent it right? Totally. That's interesting. And then I wonder why people are buying it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah we all want to figure that out for sure for sure. This has just been a fantastic conversation talking about generations and generational differences and the lack thereof and debunking some of these myths You know today on the podcasts we've talked about this whole idea of generations and some myths we talked about some implications for people, leaders, organizations, anything else that you'd like to leave. Our listeners with their court, tell our listeners where they can find out more about you. Those types of things. Yes. Sure. So I have a website. It's pretty easy. It's Court Rudolph's DOT COM I. Post a lot of my papers there. When I when I remember to update it But I also had links on there to social media I'm on twitter at court Rudolph my tweet, a lot about generations and research in this space in a kind of OB HR management and psychology. Awesome. Awesome. And I'm sure it's a challenge keeping your website updated because you publish a new paper about every other day so. You know it's a Lotta work but I just wanted to say on behalf of Chris and myself just court. It has been an absolute pleasure having you as a guest on the indigo podcast. It's a lot of fun things for Heddon. Thanks for listening to the INDIGO PODCASTS. If you like this podcast, please consider helping US rating us on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen telling your friends about us having on your podcast or mentioning us on social media. Our website is www dot indigo podcast dot com. Where you can access more information about us and this episode. Thanks again and we look forward to talking with you again soon.

boomers Harvard google consultant Asia Rudolph Journal of Occupational and Or Ford Journal of Psychology National Academies of Sciences Depaul University Wayne State University Saint Louis University Karl Mannheim Ben associate editor researcher Manhattan Cleveland State University
110: Clevelands Historic League Park  With Ken Krsolovic

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1:16:51 hr | 1 year ago

110: Clevelands Historic League Park With Ken Krsolovic

"How about them? Great here doing exciting team is telling their new home dig steel and filling their fans with dreams of a championship playing much better than anyone expected this late in the season. The fans have waited a long long time for the dive the win another pennant having. View in the one hundred twenty five story. Only three American League championships and just two world titles to be exact, and they weren't always known as the Indian when the franchise was formed in eighteen sixty nine. They were called the forest cities later, the Bronco the blues the naps after player-manager Napoleon Loy, then the spiders so named we're told because most of the players were tall and thin with gangly armed legs. It wasn't until nineteen fifteen. They became the Cleveland Indian named in honor of Louis chief Sockalexis the first American Indian the play major league baseball. He roamed the outfield for Cleveland at the turn of century was at their first home old Lee park that the Indians finally won their first world championship bidding Brooklyn in nineteen twenty just the Charlotte itself. Now as it stands in ghostly silence at sixty six and like. Welcome to good seats. Dila vailable a curious little podcast devoted to exploring. What used to be in professional sports? Here's your host, Tim hamlet. Cleveland? Hello now. That's not fiery king. It's your pal Tim handling. How are you? This is good seats. Still available are curious little podcast journey each and every week in to what used to be in professional sports. And I thank you for finding us. And yes, indeed, we have pointed our GPS coordinates to Cleveland, Ohio gigantic and very fluential city in the northern part of the great state of Ohio, and we're going to get into one of the palaces of sports in Cleveland's history. This week with our guest Ken Kresojevic about in particular league park, the the baseball and football park, and frankly other events as well that was literally the crown jewel of professional sports in Cleveland from what eighteen ninety one and nineteen Forty-six primarily, of course. Well, and best known as the home of the Cleveland Indians. And in latter years shared home with Cleveland spinach. Simple stadium. Not uncommon by the way to see the the Cleveland Indians playing day games during the week at league park in Cleveland and weekends holding down the fort at municipal stadium for much larger crowds and even some lights in case of of evening games. Interesting. Little footnote is will here in our conversation with Ken crisslow, Vic and a few seconds league park before its demise. In nineteen forty six was I believe the last major league baseball park to not have lights as as the years went on the stadium, basically came to its demise before lights even came into the picture. Although I shall here in our chat. There were some temporary lights lighting situations that occurred mostly from some of the negro league play as we'll get into because league park, not only the home of of the Indian. But for listeners of this show was also the home for for years of a bunch of teams in both baseball and football that are. No longer with us that we liked to kind of obsess about here on this little show the league park dates to all the way back to some of the earliest days of pro baseball in the US in the in the eighteen nineties, for example, the Cleveland spiders of the of the National League were one of the original one of the original. But certainly one of the earliest teams in in pro baseball. But as we mentioned, the buckeyes of the negro National League called league park in Cleveland home, and actually that's where some of the actual night games that were played at league park actually occurred. Albie it not with a permanent lighting, we'll get into some of that an couple of couple seconds or couple minutes. The football though, legacy of league park, quite substantial. The Tigers the Cleveland Tigers of the very first two to three years of the National Football League back when it was known as the association for professional. Sorry. The American professional Football Association, you get your Akron straight. I'd try least give it a try the association for professional. Now, the American the AP FA for God's sakes. Let's call it that right? But now, of course, the NFL has gone back and absorbed those early years when it was named as such even they couldn't keep the right name intact. So they just made that part of the original NFL, but the Tigers indeed report of that in Cleveland and they played league park, and we get into some of that as well as the Cleveland Indians. And or BULLDOGS depending on the year, you're asking in the twenties was another NFL franchise kind of took over after the Tigers fell apart in nineteen Twenty-three. They played at league park as did probably more famously and more memorably for successor generations that may be still alive. Listening to this will show. The Rams the Cleveland Rams who obviously absconded for Los Angeles after the nineteen forty five season. And we had a couple of episodes devoted to that. By all means give listen for those. But that's all part of the history of league park, our conversational topic this week with our guest, Ken crossover. Coming up for your enjoyment in just a few moments. And of course, though before we get into that. We gotta pay some bills, and we're going to do so with one of our favorite sponsors, of course. And that's our friends at old school shirts dot com, and that's PF Welson and his friends in Cincinnati just down the road from our our topic this week in Cleveland, the promo code therefore, you at old school shirts dot com is good seats. Good seats. Yes. That's the promo code. You're gonna get ten percent off all of your purchases at old school shirts dot com. And like the name implies a tremendous array of great logo t shirts, high quality distress looking and it's not just teams and leagues of of sports franchises. No longer with us. But a whole hefty amount of pop culture places radio stations abuse, -ment parks stores and ice cream, parl you name it all kinds of stuff memorialize. There is a page devoted to Cleveland there that you can enjoy. Find all kinds of great Cleveland memories in shirt form. And of course, in particular as it relates to this show a shirt devoted to the Cleveland leak park experience that is the league park tee-shirt. It's a beautiful red shirt. It's got a great image of the dimensions of what the old league parks to look like, it's a great piece. And again, you're going to get ten percent off that and all of your purchases at old school shirts dot com. Promo code good seats, make sure that you check out the league park shirt as well as the dozens and dozens of other great shirts, not only commemorating the great history of Cleveland, but also all kinds of other teams and leagues and places across the United States and Canada. And again, that's old school shirts dot com, promo code good seats, ten percent of all of your purchases. Enjoy it by all means on us and our friends at old school shirts dot com. We thank them and you for listening further to our great conversation with Ken Criollo Vic as we talk about. About the old times of Cleveland's league park coming. Have a little background on you, what your background is who you are and sort of how you stumbled across the story of league park, and why he wanted to go deep into a book about it. Right kim. I was I grew up in Cleveland, Cleveland suburbs and fascinated with baseball from the time. I was you know, could watch it on TV and whatever. And and the first game I ever went to ironically was not in Cleveland. It was at Forbes field in Pittsburgh. I think it was seven years old. And we were my family was there on a vacation for something and got to go to a game. And we we're in downtown hotel. We took a cab over and we got out of the cat. And my dad got out of the cabinet looked up. And goes Jesus is just likely park when I was a kid, and that was the first time, I think I realized we park existed. And then when I found out as I grew up that there were remnants of it's still there and a ball field still there. I was fastened. Hated by it. I loved going to the old Cleveland municipal stadium, then growing up and always had a curiosity about league park. And there had never been a comprehensive book written. And I always said, I was a journalism major. I started out I worked in college athletics. And I started out as a sports information guy public relations type and always had that interest, and I wound up getting hired at John Carroll university in Cleveland and the year I got hired was just out of college, and I was playing summer softball. And there was a guy on my team that similarly lights old stadiums and whatnot. And we got to be pals wind up going to games a couple of times different places. And he also was kinda fascinated by league park. And we always said some day, we should write this, and you know. He winds up getting married. I wanted to get married. You have kids. You know, we always talked about it, we stayed friends. Even though I had left town for a couple of different positions. We stayed good friends and eventually I wound up back in the greater Cleveland area. We reconnected and Brian Fritz who end up being the co author of this said, you gotta meet me downtown for lunch one day here. I got something to show you, and so this was probably about two thousand and seven or eight I met him downtown at the famous Slimane's in Cleveland where they have the best corned beef sandwiches. And he pulled out this envelope of a bunch of anecdotes little paragraphs written different stuff. He had been going for about a year down to the downtown Cleveland library, which has a fabulous sports area. It is unbelievable. They're collection. Well, he had been going down and going through the microfilm of newspapers and just kind of skimming and reading and coming up with little bits and pieces and stories, and he hands to me and this envelope and says. Well, we've been talking about it forever. Here. It is I've got stuff, and I went whoa and started sort through it. And it took us about six or seven years on and off working on it. And adding to as we went and came up with tons of great stories, we dispelled a lot of things you're gonna these these plenty of these anthology books with all kinds of ballparks and a couple of pages on each and the same mistakes while end up over and over in in these books and perpetuated, and we corrected some of them found some great stories and we've together into what became the book league parka stork home of Cleveland baseball. So walk us through a little bit of the process. Right. So so library, of course, that you're you're going back in time. Right. So this is more of a I'm gonna guess more of a a secondary source. Look back in top Mr. ical versus first-person memories. And that kind of stuff, but were there anybody was there any was there any sort of a any direct people involved in some of the stories, maybe from the Cleveland Indians organization were with any sort of people still alive of of you know, of any kind of note in this process or was this all an Stoorikhel kind of investigation dig there weren't any decision makers. We kept trying to find people, and we came up with lots of people who said, oh, I'll never forget riding the trolley down to league park with my grandpa, or my father, my mother or whatever and going to ball games. And we had that same story from a couple of thousand people. We there was no one left really that was a decision maker or was involved with the actual building or whatnot. So really everything. We did came out of research. You know came out of again combing new newspapers, which Brian did the most of you know, generated a lot of anecdotes and these little stories, and and things that that we were able to come up with and that make not only the book, but we do like PowerPoint presentations and whatnot. We did a thing at the Indian tribe fast for a ton of people. And you know, those kind of things are what really makes the story and the fact that league park, I think has an an inordinate amount of amazing things that happened there. Just incredible. How much the history of baseball and sports and whatnot and significant things that happened all seem to kind of weave around league park one way or the other. It was amazing to to to realize that. And in fact, working title of the book was in a league. League of its own. Because it we felt like it was so unique that so many crazy things happen there and significant things, you know, routes five hundred home run some big ones, you know, the fifty six game dimaggio's hitting streak etcetera. There were some big ones that happened there. But then a lot of these other things that kind of what you're interested in tied in with the the federal league and the early days of the NFL and the Cleveland Rams, and it just cry criss crossed over all of these various areas and was amazingly interesting. Well, the publisher didn't like that title. And no one's gonna know what that means. You know, just league park. Okay. That's what we wound up with. And the ironic thing was to find a publisher. We were. That was new to me I'd worked in a writer and whatnot as part of my career and college athletics. But I distinctly. Remember calling fella that that was at one of the Philadelphia papers. I worked in Philadelphia for a while that I knew that had had a couple books published and I said, I said, hey, how did you find your publisher? And he said, well, what's the book? I told him a little about it. And he said, oh, he says sounds like a great topic. Really interesting. He goes, nobody's going to publish it. No one's going to read it like what he goes, dad. There's nobody around and eighty year old people don't buy books, but we thank goodness found a publisher McFarland. That was the takes a lot of this kind of stuff. And the response has been just the opposite of what he said we have gotten tons of great response. Thank goodness. After you know, you're coming down the stretch of six or seven year project, and somebody tells you no one's going to print it. And no one's gonna read it. You know, my heart. Song, but it did you printed? And again, we have been, you know, going around various libraries talion American clubs, you know, whatever all kinds of different speaking engagements, and and get great feedback. Well, look and also it also does have some connection to current sports Linnea trading. We're big fans of sort of the the the used to be here on this this little show, and you consider yourself a I guess now in Los Angeles Rams fan. Right. I mean, you know, how many people want to trace it back. But you know, the Cleveland Rams, you know, where the were you know, without them. You wouldn't have any Los Angeles or Saint Louis or Los Angeles again or Saint Louis rans and the Indians, of course. Right. You know, one of the legacy teams dating all the way back to the origination. Of the American League, right? You know, didn't just Cup one day and start playing the Jake or what is right and nationally ball before that was at league park spiders who. Had a special show on just on them in the past. So so so let's let's start with this because this league park, right? Was essentially built for them. I will say exclusively. But but with them right now it was exclusively for them. Frank Rogerson was the owner of the team. He also owned streetcar lines in the city. You know, they were not public transportation is just that today. It's public in those days. It was private privately owned lines. They paid for the rights to to build streetcar lines on the city streets. So Rogerson owned the team, and he owns some streetcar lines and the ballpark eighty had. I believe it was at fortieth in pain wasn't very good. I think there was a tree and deep dead center field, and you know, was goofy park and didn't really work, and he spied some land a little further east, which at that time. You know, was you know? Not packed with homes or whatnot yet, and he picked up a block of land. And that's pretty much outta footprint of these ballparks in those days came to be and so he did pick one out wisely that happened to be where his streetcar lines intersected. So not only would he get your nickel when you forget there. But then he would get you to buy ticket as well. So he got you. I if you could literally say coming going. Well, that's the that's especially because you know, we we also try to look for some themes here and the intersection between professional sports and real estate right is absolutely. A Majorcan Centric configuration because you look at say what's going on with Major League Soccer right now. Right in the must have soccer specific stadiums. As part of the mix, and what the Atlanta Braves have done by basically moving out of the heart of the city into the suburbs. And basically, you know plopping their their ball field. Literally in the midst of a a mixed use development of of office buildings and restaurants and fem- kind of situations and stuff so in some respects, this is almost a, you know, a glimpse frankly of the the the necessary or the the dual relationship between that of real estate and the pro sports team, and in this kind of fashion. Well, and and you know in Cleveland again league park. Ties into what set the stage for? Municipal investment into teams beginning with Cleveland municipal stadium on the lake front in the early nineteen thirties. And so that that that story of league park and initial stadium built in thirty one the Indians only park the city invested first time that ever happened that the city invested in a ballpark and said we're gonna build this and the team's gonna come here. Well as soon as they finished the ballpark. The didn't move in the middle of the nineteen thirty one season, they said, well, we only park why are we gonna pay you rent and play down there? So it took them year to come to an agreement to get the Indians to move down to the lake front. Middle of thirty two. They played the rest of that season and had at least the playoff thirty three at the end of the thirty three season. The Indian said we've had three crowds here in a year and a half that wouldn't have fit into league park. So they said we're going back and they moved back to league park, which was still there and still in pretty good shape. Fact, they invested money in it. You know, added some seats and and painted everything up and in nineteen thirty four the Indians were back at league bark. So that whole thing though, that happened set the stage for what you're talking about not only real estate but cities investing to get teams. And the struggle that went on in Cleveland from the thirties early thirties until nineteen forty seven is an amazing story and itself before they finally took all the games to Cleveland state. It's interesting are before we get to that sort of that back and forth. Let's let's delve into the spider's for second. Because the original park was was made of wood has most most. Of the stadiums were at that time in the late eighteen hundreds right? We don't to go through the entire history of the spiders, but pretty interesting club, especially in their last season in eighteen ninety nine maybe it can kind of describe a little bit of a sort of the futility of that. But but maybe house successful or maybe then ultimately, not spiders were with this park. Yeah. Robots moves the spiders to this new parkey build your right wooden in eighteen ninety one moves the team. They're opening day pitcher is sei-hyung for the Cleveland, spiders, and spiders, not great didn't draw. Great the first couple of years there. But by the mid eighteen nineties AB came pretty good went to the temple Cup. Which was you know, there was only the National League at that's stretch. So they came up with a playoff system and the spiders went to the to the temple Cup. Eighteen ninety five eighteen ninety six. Meanwhile, Rogerson he's pretty frustrated because as many cities had they had Sunday blue laws. No games could be played on Sunday. He was he got angrier and angrier. Because now he's putting a good team on the field. 'cause attendance went up some but not what he thought it should be. And he thought the solution. We'd be Sunday baseball. He tried going. You know, just to the edge of the city went to the museum park yuko beach park. Played a couple of games they're played in Newburgh heights. Just on the south side of out side of the city limits try to couple of things and constant fight. Well, it never worked. It never paid off. And he got more and more frustrated. So by the end of the eighteen ninety eight season he came up with a different plan. He and his brother invested into the Saint Louis team and what they called syndicate baseball. You could never do this nowadays have two competing teams supposedly but common ownership so in eighteen ninety nine. They take the Rogerson take all the best players from Cleveland, and trade, and yeah that would be an air quotes. They trade the best players from Cleveland, all Saint Louis and trade all the worst players from Saint Louis over to Cleveland, so Cleveland has an absolutely miserable team loses goes wins. What was it one hundred and one hundred and thirty four losses. Fact, they lost forty of their last forty one games worst team in major league history. Of course. But no fault of Cleveland's or whatever it was really the spite of of Rogerson at that time to, you know, do this to to to the franchise and you Saint Louis cardinals fans out there should know that this was the teen ninety Saint Louis Perfecto. Are part of the lineage of the Saint Louis cardinals that we know today. Correct. So at the end of the eighteen ninety nine season there were twelve teams in the National League. There had been for about a decade and Cleveland was one of the four that they kind of got rid of. So it's down to eight teams and league park would have been vacant except that in nineteen hundred. There was the American League beginning to form, and it was a minor league in nineteen hundred. But it had designs on challenging the National League. So Rogerson on loaded league park to the new owners that came in with this new team. It was again it was a minor league team. They were called the Cleveland lake shores in nineteen hundred. But in nineteen one they declared that they were going to be a major league instead of being own. Only mid west based league. Many of the franchises shifted east. And they went head to head with an eighteen circuit to go up ahead against the National League. Yeah. So ironically, the the the damage was done, right. You sort of kind of blow up the team that was in Cleveland in many respects that a fresh start with this new American League circa nineteen one exactly and so- Cleveland got into that league. And and wind up having, you know, pretty good run their early on especially when nap LaJoie came over from Philadelphia because he tried to jump from the Phillies to the new athletics. In the American League. There was a court injunction, the Phillies said, you know, we have him under contract we ever reserve clause. He can't leave and accord in Philadelphia. Agreed. What the American League did? Then was in nineteen oh two they sent leisure way to Cleveland. So Cleveland picks up perhaps the greatest player of that time kind of on a fluke and the while the court battle was raging that year Lasley could not play when the Cleveland club went to play the flex in Philadelphia. If he was in Pennsylvania, he could have been arrested. So the team would go to Philadelphia he would take the train down through West Virginia across Maryland and go to Atlantic City and hang out for a couple of days. The team was playing the series in Philadelphia. Then he catch up with them after then finally got settled in nineteen oh three and could play full-time. And that's when last became the player manager of the Cleveland club. And they named the team. He was so popular they called them the naps. Yeah. If you want to hear the Philadelphia as side of that story, go to our episode number twenty one with our conversation with David Jordan. But that's an interesting component there of historian the fact that he basically to carve out a little detour. Or for himself before? The club because he can't get less to yet in bigger trouble. Why what's explain that? Then the rest of the the offs, right? Because this by the end of that decade, the notion of a wooden ballpark right is is clearly getting long in the tooth across all of baseball. And so maybe you can give our audience a sense of sort of win in how the the next generation of league park construction was sort of brought about well in nineteen oh eight plans when in place for shy park and Philadelphia and Forbes field in Pittsburgh, they opened brand new and ninety-nine Cleveland wanted to get on the bandwagon and have a concrete and steel ballpark like that. There was also actually ninety nine. There was another one other park was into Lido for the minor league team there. Well, that was built by Osborn engineering of Cleveland. So the owners of the Indians at that time in nineteen. Nine went and said, right? We want in on this. We we're we want to reconstruct take down the wooden structure and build a new ballpark on the same site. And that's what happened Cleveland winds up with a concrete and steel ballpark that opens on opening day of nineteen ten oh and irony. Opening day pitcher sei-yung it opens ballpark in eighteen ninety one with the spiders was the opening day pitcher who is back in Cleveland after some years in Boston was back in Cleveland and open the ballpark. A second time pretty unbelievable to think of that. That's interesting. So, but so the idea of these concrete and steel structures were so how long did it take to build that stadium because there was no interruption between the ninety-nine wooden? League park and the nineteen ten concrete and steel league park. Right. Right. Well for the nineteen nine season, the structure that's at the corner of sixty six Lexington which is the team offices, and the you know ticket windows and whatnot was built it was built in nine. So that was their beforehand and the old configuration. The ticket ticket windows were at the corner of sixty six and Lynnwood. So just on the north block north corner of the block, well when they rebuilt this. They put those tickets the ticket window on that what would be the right field corner that signature building which still exists to this day. And after the day after the final game in nineteen oh nine workers came and dismantled the wooden stadium. And the ballpark was in place. And ready to go day nineteen ten. Well, that's pretty that's pretty well thought out, right? You'd think that it would take longer and would be a bit of a Messier prospect, then but that's in that area. Very. So they pulled it off Cleveland Cleveland, Scott, the new ballpark, and they're you know, it was it was a rave, they were drew rave reviews. Now, it was the grandstand. That went essentially right field corner to left you'll corner the bleachers in left left field state intact from the old ballpark. Those did get rebuilt eventually and more seats were added in that corner. And lower deck come around another decade, nineteen twenty we're not gonna spend a whole lot of time on the although it's very they're very integral to this to the story. But it's an interesting little sidebar a couple of years later, you sort of alluded to it before. But maybe we could sort of talk about it now. So there was this upstart circa nineteen fourteenth nineteen fifteen call the federal league, and we've had a couple of episodes devoted to to that that league, and what that was all about it and the reasons behind it, but you want to the. League park had a significant role. Actually when it can't. And it's possible play in the federal you want to sort of walk audience through sort of what happened there. Yeah. Not much different than in nineteen hundred. When this upstart league, the American League came to be they were, you know, a minor league circuit for that one year, then declared themselves major league in nineteen to one and started raiding the Rosser the National League. Same thing happens. Come this. Federally group they have league called the United States league in nineteen thirteen. It's operates as a minor league. They put a franchise in Cleveland plays at what was called Luna park, which was actually a an amusement park. But did have a, you know, a grandstand and whatnot for for football. And and baseball, and that's where that team played in the nineteen thirteen season while the owner of the ball clubs Charles summers at the time, he was you know, panicking. There's another threat to my business. So what he did was he took. His top minor league club moved to the Toledo team to Cleveland for nineteen fourteen. So that there would be a game at league park every day either the Cleveland club or this Toledo club transplanted to Cleveland. And so if there was a competing team if the federal league had chosen to put a team in Cleveland, they would always be going head to head with another contest. So that's how. Dot Cleveland into this and really Cleveland was badly hurt though by the league with two teams playing. The teams were not successful. The attendance was down for both and summers. Gotten a real financial trouble and wound up on loading the team after the nineteen fifteen season. That's interesting. So in many respects, the idea to sort of backstop and try to prevent the federal league from sort of invading Cleveland the wounds were actually been more self inflicted by bringing a minor league team to fill in all the other other dates around sort of and hastened the demise of the current ownership of the current team. It definitely hurt them. You know that holy again. You look at the federal league standings, there's no Cleveland club. But there was this behind the scenes story going on in Cleveland, and yeah, it had a huge impact on the franchise. And what was what was the there were two gnome diploma of of the Toledo mud hens where they were playing those two seasons in Cleveland. What were they? It's not a quiz. I can tell you. Bearcats one year. And then they were the spiders which were reviving the alt-right. Exactly, they thought it would be a good marketing move to revive the the name spiders because it did tie into the into the history of the city in baseball. But ironically, we did find different references of nicknames based on the teams are based on the newspaper. So when they did Bearcats some used other names were they were couple of names that went around that year. So it was a unique situation. So that's very ironically, the federal league wound up actually compromising of what was going on in baseball in the city of Cleveland having never have played a game there. That's interesting without question. Yes. All right. So let's go into the twenties then because the team owner of the Indians by that time has guy named a who's a sunny Jim done guy and wildly decided to rename the park in his honour. Well, he renamed the park in his honor. He bought the team in nineteen. Fifteen and again, the fifth fourteen and fifteen teams were not good done comes in. He acquires Chris speaker, huge huge move to get speaker out of Boston becomes to clean becomes a player-manager. And the upswing starts so Cleveland has, you know, competitive teams in the late in the teams and culminates with you know, the nineteen twenty World Series and that championship. And again, you talk about first and crazy things that happen. You know, the first ever grand slam in in a World Series. First home run by a pitcher in World Series on assisted triple play. The only one, of course, the World Series ever still. And then we're all in the same game five in Cleveland league. Bark. So amazing. Again, confluence of things that happened there. It just is incredible. And yeah, sunny Jim done buys the team. But he got one of those things that we saw in many of the books. Oh, well, he bought the team in nineteen sixteen and then it became done field. Totally untrue. Some people may have referred to it as as as done field because he was the owner not uncommon Griffiths stadium Ebbets field. It's not all you know, lot of ballparks were named after their owners in fact before done bought the team a lot of people called league park summers field because Charles Somers was the owner, but our summers park, actually. But it never was officially summers park was always leak park when done bought it. It was still league park. But he promised to bring championship to Cleveland. So after the nineteen twenty real series victory done declared. He said okay now we can name it done field. And. So the truth is is that it was named on field. But it was only from nineteen twenty one he passed in about nineteen twenty three twenty four. His widow owned the franchise for a couple more years. So it was a nineteen twenty seven then after that season when she unloads the team then it goes back to officially being league park. But again, the locals really called league park way more than they ever called it done feel. All right. That's interesting. Okay. So we you know, you can understand right? That sort of the I guess you'd say the owners owners prerogative. Right. Absolutely absolutely earner field. Whatever it goes on to this day Jacobs Field when the when they opened in ninety four with the new Parker in Cleveland, Jay Jacobs was the owner at the time. So, you know, not unusual ever in the history. All right. We're gonna take a quick brief pause. And we wanna remind you that our friends at audible are offering to you our listeners an opportunity to get a free audiobook download from their amazing array of over one hundred ninety thousand titles Jews of when you go to audible trial dot com slash good seats. And that's the place to go to get your free audiobook, download courtesy of us. And audible, and it's something you can cancel it anytime, and you can keep the book for as long as you're device exists. And like I said before this is a ton of choices available to you to burn up that free credit, including a bunch in the realm of our forgotten sports little genre here including in the row of basketball. If you fancy yourself a fan of the old ABA, for example to great books on the great, Julius Erving that might be worth using your credit for one. Of course is the the rise and rise of Julius Erving. It's called doc. And it's written by. Vincent Malagasy narrated by David format. You could use your credit for that book. 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The downloaded book free and gratis courtesy of yours. Truly here. It could still available and our friends at automous. Thank you audible. We appreciate it. And that we appreciate you joining our conversation once again. Well, it's also around this time where the earliest days of professional football in the United States were starting to make itself. Kind of known rag-tags at might being plenty of episodes kind of devoted primordial of what then became the NFL. But but Cleveland was no stranger to those those beginnings and early years of the NFL do you want to kind of kind of rebel a bit in how the NFL and league park kinda intersected? Well, pretty good timing because you know, nineteen twenty you know, we're coming up on the hundredth anniversary of of the National Football League. The NFL was founded in canton in a building. That was a car dealership was where the meeting was so northeast Ohio, which use the canton BULLDOGS the Cleveland team was actually dictating the BULLDOGS at the same time for one strips there. There was a team in Akron the Akron pros. You know, this was a hotbed. The NFL really its roots are in the mid west from Green Bay and Decatur, and you know, those towns Portsmouth, Ohio in on the high river, you know, the mid west was the beginnings of pro football, so Cleveland again, right in the midst of this, and where are you going to go? If you're gonna play pro football in the twenties. Well, there was really one good choice and that was leaked bark and with its odd configuration which was short porch down the right field line. It was more of a rectangular, you know ballpark. So it really did serve football. Well, and Cleveland had again a variety of teams that came in and out at you know, over those years in these early. Early years of of NFL football. And again, some of the competing teams to because there were a couple of different aren't incarnations of the AFL. I'm sure that was one of your episodes. Well, sure, so the Tigers quote unquote with the first ones in the the true, I two or maybe even three years two years of. Of the National Football League. I guess the NFL let's be clear the NFL. Named itself such in nineteen twenty two but the two years prior notice the the American professional Football Association, but but that technically is part of the NFL's original history and lineage and the Tigers were absolutely one of those first franchises playing in league park. Correct. And you know, the history of football league park those pre gate that because it became the site for big high school games. There was an annual Thanksgiving Day game there, you know, what was called the big four in Cleveland four colleges. Case tech, Western Reserve John Carroll and Baldwin Wallace. You know, that was a big deal in Cleveland, those four schools in so many of those games head to head and some of the games when they played outside teams were also played at league park. So the football history at league park does predate pro football. But also went simultaneous with the pro teams really all the way till the end of the end of league parks life as a stay. Radio. So what? So what was the relationship of the early and we'll get to the Rams in a minute because that's sort of a different sort of Ballo axe. But based on your research, what was the sort of relationship between the park and the Cleveland Indians has owners of of the park with say the Cleveland Tigers in those first couple years, the NFL, and then the Indians football slash BULLDOGS of the NFL in the latter part of the twenties was it a a rented, you know, ownership kind of thing where they paid rent these these football teams or was there any financial relationships were was there any friction say in terms of dates and and usage of the field and chewing it up and all that kind of stuff, especially when. I'm not aware of any financial dealings with the Indians ownership and the football teams that I'm not aware of it. I guess it's possible. But as I understood it, it was always a rental situation. But clearly major league baseball and the Indians, you know to dibs on the field because there were years where if there was early season game and the Indians were still playing that early season football game, maybe played at Akron or somewhere else instead of tearing up the football or the baseball field at that point. So that happened a couple of different times when and football really didn't take grips until October. When the Rams come about. And obviously there was a bit of a murky sort of a birth of them having played in the second American football league in nineteen thirty six and then correct? Then in the NFL. Self in nineteen thirty seven all the way, I guess until forty five, but they took a year off or forty three during the war and all that stuff yet talk about that and certain other episodes. But so you know as the Rams come into the into play at league park. It's a little uncertain to me as to why perhaps that they were in league park versus say municipal stadium which was built win. Well, municipal stadium opened in thirty one. Okay. So it was already established well established by the time the Rams came in and thirty six, but again the rent was higher. It's eight thousand seats did the NFL in late thirties. Need eighty thousand seats and the answer is no they didn't need it. And it was more cost effective to play at league park. So again, the city of Cleveland was extremely frustrated with the situation they had spent you know, gobs of. Money almost three million dollars in the early. Thirty sounds like nothing today and build a good scoreboard. Can't even here. Good scoreboard for three million dollars. But in those days, you know, it was a huge investment. And here they are frustrated they couldn't get the Indians in their fulltime. They couldn't get throw football in their full-time. They're filling it with, you know, all kinds of events to try, and you know, show that it was a good investment for the taxpayers, but I'm sure that they were very frustrated and it was an ongoing fight between the ballpark at league park and the city owning Cleveland municipal stadium. So yes, you know, the the Rams decide to play I league park. And in fact, they went a year to what was a high school stadium, a huge high school stadium somewhere around eighteen thousand seats, but they went there for you. You know, again, it was negotiating and eighteen. Thousand seats was enough. They did wind up playing a couple of seasons Cleveland stadium. But again, the the crowds didn't warrant the cost the higher rent to play down there, and they wound up back for their last few years of existence back at league park once again, and that's where they won that actually won the last champion won the championship in their last year. I should say, but the interesting thing was they did that great year in forty five. The words closing down. Troops are coming back. Pro sports is really taking off. And all of a sudden they wanted to in forty five. They wanted to move games from league park down to Cleveland stadium because they knew they could sell more see suddenly Parkhead. I'm was they had a lease. And they were stuck playing league park for the forty five season had a couple of huge crowds in there. And then finally for the championship game, which wind up being of course, their last game before moving to LA was at Cleveland stadium because the least didn't cover the potential of a playoff or championship game. So the club the Rams were able to negotiate a deal to play that one game the championship in late December forty five at Cleveland stadium. But there was lots going on then because the new Brown's had already been announced they had, you know, there's a great owners setup to come in and have have his team there and Paul Brown. I'm talking about and. The Rams couldn't get a lease to go down to the stadium at that point. Because the Browns now had a lease. They beat him to the punch and had at least for forty six at the stadium. Meanwhile, quarterback Bob waterfield of the Rams was out of southern California. He had a Hollywood wife in Jane Russell. And so the owner of the ram said I'm going to LA, well, actually, the NFL blocked the move at first because they said it's going to cost us a ton of money. And he said I'll pay the difference of what what got you to Cleveland and send your team to LA to play us. And that's really how that deal came about with the Rams moving had it not been waterfield. Had it not been. Jane Russell Cleveland by the head to NFL teams. They might have had the Rams plan at league park. And they might ahead the Browns down the lakefront, and for you complete is set there you want to check out our perfectly time with Jim celebrity and Andy on on both the the the Rams. And that those last couple years, and then the move to LA and the Browns coming in from the AFC and arguably being perhaps one of the greatest dynasties of pro football. So very interesting leak leak parks its share of quality. So what we're? You're some really cool pictures in this book of of sort of the of how some of the different layouts and stuff as a press box was like a temporary press box and how the Rams sort of used league park, but any indication as to how much reconfiguration or a fan inconveniences, or or were seating arrangement changes that might have gone down because of playing of gridiron football versus baseball in that stadium because it wasn't built for football per se. Right. Correct. Absolutely. But again because of the layout because of the block that Mr. Roberston picked out, and because of those trolley lines in eighteen ninety you know, it did it did work. Well, for football the third base line double deck grandstand. You know, went right along the field was an awesome view. And what they did was. Of course, if folks that aren't familiar with league park's right field had a high wall similar to. To the green monster at Fenway. Well, that ran along you know, behind that other side other sideline. Well, there was that whole area of what would be right field there. Yeah. And you're right. They did build a it would put a temporary press box for the Rams games that would be kind of against the wall and in front of that there were you know, they would bring in temporary bleachers. So that there was seating on both sides of the field. So and in fact, there was one time where you know, the some of the bleachers collapsed and they kept the game right on going. But yeah, there was some accommodations made for football absolutely miss out on another part of the baseball story here. Right. And that's the negro leagues in particular, the Cleveland buckeyes who are very much integral part of of league park during during the nineteen forties. And do I this is my presumption. So tell me if I'm off base on this or not it seems to me that the Indians, right? As the owners of league park seemed to kind of show more than just a few dalliances towards a municipal stadium. As those as the years progress in the late thirties and into the forties. It seemed like there were more and more games. Whether they be, you know, weekend games, or I guess the occasional night game. Right. 'cause was league park was never this. Interesting piece of trivia right was never lighted permanently. And I was the last park to be played in the major league baseball that never had lights purple Wrigley. Of course. When till fair that that went on and is no longer with right? It was still right. But so, but it seems to me that the negro leagues and particular the buckeyes team in my correct in assuming that they kinda saw a gap as the Indian started to kinda cast their I elsewhere besides league park, and they decided to fill that or or is it just different market altogether. Well, I get get remember, you know, they only park so they had this Trump card, you know, in negotiations with the city every time they would go back to the city, and they'd say, we don't wanna pay this much rent. Okay. When we take these games there. So they started to make you know wise decisions. What happened was after the Indians had moved out. We've touched on this earlier after the thirty three season thirty four they play all their games in back at league park comes thirty five. All the games are at league park pride in nineteen thirty three. They started something called the all star game in Chicago at Comiskey park. Well in thirty five they awarded the game Cleveland. And of course, major league baseball said eighty thousand seats, we're gonna take all star game. They're not to league park and the Indians, you know, the light bulb went on their heads. They said, wait a minute. We don't have to take all our games there. They sold out. They saw that this all star game sold out and made all this money. So the next year and thirty six they said. Well, we're gonna take a Sunday game against the Yankees down there and see how we do. So they promote the game heavy draw sixty some fouls and people. Let's filling league park, you know, two and a half times at least and they that gate on one day. So. It's all about the money, folks. It's pro sports. Whether it's the the teens the twenties or the, you know, the next century here. It's about the bucks so Cleveland decides start taking key games. Specially Sunday games down to Cleveland stadium. In thirty nine. The install lights lights started across the field. I believe thirty five or thirty six they put life city Cleveland puts lights in the stadium. So now Cleveland starts to take some games away from league park on week weekdays as well. Playing occasional night game down at the big ballpark. So Cleveland stadium, you know, and that fight between league park and Cleveland stadium continues. But you're right more and more games kind of make their way over time to the big ballpark because it becomes more financially viable. So the Indians are basically the the owners are getting paid by the by the buckeyes, I guess other other entities to right as right? So certainly within their, you know, within their realm they on the ballpark, and they still want to, you know, get the most value they can out of it. So yeah, they're renting to the buckeyes Western Reserve University. One of those big four teams we mentioned they were making a stab at trying to go big time in college football at that time. They scheduled pit West Virginia some bigger, you know, more name teams trying to elevate their program. So they're playing at league park. So it was within, you know, certainly something that the Indians it's a good business for them to make money off this piece of property that they own and again to the dismay of the city of Cleveland. So it wasn't until bills that bought the team during the forty six season that that type finally turned and after the forty six season that negotiates a deal. To take all the games back down to the big stadium for the forty seven season. Again, the Bassett families the grounds crew now they're taking care of the stadium while they kept keep kept on taking care of league park too. Because the buckeyes are playing there, and there's football going on there every fall as well. So, you know, the Indian haven't investment they have a piece of property. You can't just shut it down. And you know, they needed to make some money off it. So it was fortunate for them. And in fact, there was a time where they did talk about the buckeyes talked about adding lights to league park because they were paying twenty five hundred dollars per game. If they played a night game at Cleveland stadium that was their rental charge. Well, the lights were ten thousand and the installation was five. So in six games, they could get their investment back. Well, it never happened. They never did put the lights in and of course, the decline another story for you. You know that decline of the the negro leagues. After after the integration of the major leagues in forty seven. So negro league baseball, you know, really dropped off and fans didn't wanna go. They wanted to go. See Jackie Robinson played. They wanted to go see satchel page play with the Indians. And and Larry Doby play with the Indians. So that was the demise not only of the negro leagues. But ultimately became the final demise of league park. That's ironic that it's actual page. Obviously, plenty of tricks to to league park to compete against the buckeyes and wound up then being part of vex team in in forty-eight plan for the Indians across town. So, but you know, it's also interesting to in your as you discuss the negro leagues, and the buckeyes which had a very interesting history, mostly forty three forty eight and a couple of dalliances and Cincinnati and Louisville along the way, but there's an interesting picture on on if you're reading at home chapter chapter chapter. Six page one thirty four there's a very interesting picture there of league park circa nineteen forty nine. And it's amazing to see all of the housing and other construction that now by that time had surrounded the park. I mean, it literally looks like it's sticking out like a sore thumb. Amidst all this other megalopolis nece if that's a word. And you're right. Could see how tight and door. How constrained I guess it was right in terms of its maybe ability to to do more and be more as as the years went on for other sports and other events again remember in eighteen nineties when that lot was picked, you know, we're not private automobiles. You know, you got there by trolley or your horse or you walked or whatever. So. Yeah. As the ballpark grew in that area around it grew it was not conducive to parking. And you know, there were people made, you know, a quarter of car parking squeezes many cars on their front lawn as they could. And and you know, that's what that neighborhood was. And you're right forty nine that picture, you're referring to an aerial view. Or you can see it was just jam packed with. There was some businesses. And and of course, you know, plenty of housing but once league park went out once that nineteen fifty season. The last year the buckeyes fooled midyear and new owner gets the team from vac signs of deal to stay at the stadium and part of the deal to the city's relief is finally the deal includes that the city takes over the space that is league park and says all right? That's that's going to be the city's the city will own this. And what they did was they began to dismantle it. Then that winner of fifty fifty fifty one to one it is now in sort of it's legacy. What other things went on at that park, the sides baseball, and and football, what kind of events kind of a concert just other things because obviously, you know, despite having municipal stadium there since the I guess the thirties, you know, the league park was probably, you know, one of the pro prime venues in this city metro near Cleveland for I guess any other event or spectacle, right things like boxing and those. Boxing, was was big there really wasn't much else. In terms of concerts, or anything? There was we did come across since the book was published. We came across in nineteen sixteen. There was an opera held at league park the Zeke freed opera took the took the field space and was presented in league park. But you're right. If there was going to be a big gathering that was by far the biggest space in Cleveland prior to you know, prior to municipal stadium being built now there was the indoor public hall, which got built in the twenties downtown indoors and became a boxing venue in a basketball, then you, but indoors was different. The biggest outdoor space was league park until you know, Cleveland stadium came about in nineteen thirty one. So it's demise. And it's it's memory, right? So so it has become. What is it? Now, I'm not live in Cleveland area. But it was denoted as a national stork landmark, right? Wasn't it along the way somewhere? Yeah. And that was in seventy nine several attempts to try and revive us. Because again, the the area around league park after the team left that became, you know, really downtrodden area lot of the housing became, you know, vacant was not a good area of the city by any means over the next several decades it really was into Klein, but. In. There were a lot of people with nostalgia for the park and the leader. Honestly being fella named hell level. It's who was the sports editor of the Cleveland. Plain Dealer had been at the Cleveland news before that when out of business in nineteen sixty we're up at the plane dealers sports editor, and and really longs for the place and in seventy nine there was the first effort to try and say, hey, there's still this field here. Because again, the city took it over his apart and kind of on usual, you know, feel gets plowed under and they build apartment buildings and Forbes field lines up on Pitt's campus, 'cause it's right there, and it cetera etcetera, none of these places over very few which revive certainly not as a ballpark. But there was a ball field there and that in the fifties. And in the sixties, it was largely used by a lot of the Cleveland high schools, the premier games, they left some of the seating up, and and it was supposed to be the premier area. They actually built a city pool. One point down one of the down the left field corner. There was a basketball court down the right field corner. You know, that's how this place miraculously survived all of these years and Lebowitz Mr. Lebowitz at the Plain Dealer decided he was he kinda got behind. There was an effort to try and do something. And so he really trumped it up with a couple of columns in the Plain Dealer, they they had a big to do invited some little players back. I was just into college. And I went down there. They had a celebration on a day. And they'll want scans the fella who turned the unassisted triple play in nineteen twenty. He's standing out there describing on the field. How he did it. What a cool day. It was and it raised a little bit of money, but not nearly enough to do what the hope was and really the effort fell apart. There was a councilman from that area of Cleveland. Woman named fanny Lewis who you know, then took over the charge later into the nineties and whatnot. And said, you know, we we need to do something with this. There's all this history all these famous people and things and that that occurred there, and so she kept pushing unfortunately, she passed right before the city finally did come up with funding to completely renovate the field. They put all new fencing recreated the famous right field wall, which is higher than the one at Fenway park. So they they did a recreation of the wall and now you can go on that field and play in the exact spot where sei-yung towed the rubber and Bob feller. Did you stand into batter's box where Ruth hit the five hundred home run over that famous wall? And and that is all there today, and then that ticket office and office building two story building on the corner. In. What was right field that survived as well. That was used oh, it was used as a kind of a community center and whatnot gotten pretty beat up and run down. But the building still was there, and they fixed it up and city made the investment to fix that structure. Now, there's a museum there a fella named Bob. Zimmer had a fantastic collection of of baseball memorabilia and his what he calls the baseball. Heritage museum is now in that building. And he has lot of league park items. But also things his interest is in whether it's Dominican baseball and Mexican league and negro leagues. So he has lots of different things like that. And of course, even amateur baseball and Cleveland, which was huge back in the nineteen teens there's tributes to that and whatnot. So it's really a neat. It's a small museum. But it's very very cool. Definitely we're saying and again ties into this whole aura of history when you walk on that area and think oh my gosh. What all has happened here, and you can still picture it. And that's what's really cool. I think that's awesome. And I guess one. Last question is is how much if anything do the Indians Amish to the field at all in their current interational? Or is it pretty much in their review window window at this point? I would say the Indians have been supportive of the ballpark of league park. Major league baseball. This year has reserved league park for the week leading up to the all star game this summer. They haven't announced what's going to go on there. But there are so many things going on in Cleveland miss year. The all star game. It's become really a whole week long festival. So there will be something going on down there. But the Indians have been very supportive, and they do they do a pretty good job of honoring their history. They have a neat in in progressive field. Now, there's a. Very cool outdoor area with plaques and whatnot. In fact, plaque that hung league park honoring the nineteen twenty season. And the death of the Indians shortstop at that time that only league park is now in that area at progressive field. So that area on what they have done is very recog- makes great recognition of league park. In fact, if you go around on the concourse and the lower deck just to the third base side tasked home plate, and if you look closely at the concession stands that are there. They are built in tribute to league park, they have brick archways. There are large paintings of ballplayers from that era. There are a couple of plaques that represent some of the stories that happened at league park. So they really have done a great job of recognizing their history and inside the park and out. You know, the statues and whatnot outside it, really. I give the Indian organization. Great kudos for the things. They have done. Well, so there it is. There's the the admonition to our listeners is if you are considering going to Cleveland this year for the the baseball all star game and all the festivities you owe it to yourself to go check out the the old and still their league park or the remnants thereof as well as what's remembered progressive field, and I'm sure Ken will be more than happy to autograph purchased copies of his book as you go back in time. And and explore and see for yourself all these great little tidbits that we've frankly just scratched the surface within our in our conversation. So they can this has been pretty cool. You wanna give us a little bit of promotional goodness for the book. Which by the way, I have to say is. You know is very well written. It's very tightly put together. The the pictures are are tremendous. They seem to you've got to even interesting thing in the appendix. We were talking before about the renamed lease for few years done field in the appendix there in the back. There is literally the seemingly ahead of its time season ticket brochure that describes in great detail, including scenes of what your seats will look like depending on what you're sitting. It's it's beautifully reproduced. And it's just about as comprehensive book, I have seen dedicated to a particular stadium so kudos, but how can our listeners find it. And what else do you have up your sleeve, maybe beyond this book? Well, it's easy to find. If you type in league park book, it'll come up, it's it's officially it's leaked Barca star calm of Cleveland baseball. But it'll come up mine name canker salvage, and I my co author Brian Fritz are the authors of the book, and it was published by McFarland. You can get a straight through the McFarland website. They're on North Carolina. But it's on you know, of the usuals, Amazon, cetera Barnes and noble. You can find it on on most of those places. It'll come up at lots of different bookstore sites. It also is available at that museum at league park itself. It's available there. They use the book as a way to raise donations. So it comes with a donation to the museum effect. It's free entrance to see the museum. But they do ask for donations. If you make donation of a certain amount, you get the book. So. Yeah. And I'm down there. Sometimes so yeah, I'm there. I'm happy to sign it, Brian. And I again, we do lots of speaking engagements and whatnot. So it's it's easy to find. If if you give it a little look you'll you'll come across our book. Also, if you're interested in league part, I run a Twitter site that league park cle- league parks feeli, and we post this book could've never come to an end because we keep finding more great pictures, and you know, little tidbits and stories and different things about. So when we find that kind of stuff, that's where it goes. It goes on the Twitter site. So we'll find a new picture that we'd never seen before. We'll post it. We'll put the information. We we do. Note famous dates in league park history at cetera et cetera. I'm amazed at how we can it just continues to to add a followers of our sites a league park cle- on Twitter. If you're interested in old ballparks in general and league park in particular. We have lots of stuff on there all the time, and and just try and tie it to whatever's going on and we've come up with some meat things. We didn't even talk about you know, a lot of the famous events to nineteen eleven the first purported all-star game took place at league park after the death of Addie joss unfortunate death of great Cleveland pitcher, who's known hall of fame and in nineteen eleven they had a fundraiser for his family and the American League all stars played against the Indians in nineteen eleven at at league park. So that's outlined there. It's just it just goes on and on and again, the anecdotes little tidbit stories. The crazy funny. Things that happened down there. We have plenty of in inside the book. Hi, we'll save it for the for the book that people need to buy. And we appreciate all was only half joking. I guess apparently the Ken will be out there in about and with sharpie and handed. I guess they'll sign copies if and I think that's also a cool. Maybe even a better way to buy the book, obviously linked to it on our website and all that kind of stuff. And of course, we always enjoy when people click on the Lincoln, give us a couple of shackles keep our episodes going, but what better way, frankly than two more genuinely by actually at the park itself to such part of the story and stuff. So look I wish you continued success with it. And I also appreciate your squeezing some time in between your your unpire duties to talk about this. Among other things. I'm sure and I hope few other books get sold because of this of this thing, I learned a lot and I haven't been Cleveland in a while. But obviously next time I go I will make an effort to to go and actually see this because it's it's still there, which is rare to say, you can't say that about a lot of former ballparks with all this great history that you know, that actually still, you know, in some form or fashion somewhat close to original incarnation. There's a couple tiger stadium. Now has as a field there Morial stadium in Baltimore. There's field on that spot. But again, you know, this goes back to eighteen ninety one so too. It is purportedly the oldest major league field. That is still in operation where you can still go to play baseball on that. Our thanks to Ken Kresmanovic for a wonderful discussion about the history of Cleveland baseball league park. Cleveland football for that matter and a bunch of other teams that we can now at least put a little small little check Mark next to that. We've actually we've talked about. And hopefully, we'll we'll go deeper as the months and God forbid years go on the book, of course, is called league park historic home of Cleveland baseball, eighteen ninety one and nineteen forty six. It is written by Ken present Ovik and his co author Brian Fritz it is published by our friends at McFarland and company. And of course, you can find that wherever good books are sold. But of course, we encourage you to buy the book through the direct link. You'll find on our website at good seats still available dot com to search this episode about league park, and Ken and our conversation of which and in there, you will find a link to the book and by doing so. You'll give us a few shackles when you do so. And again, that's good seats still available dot com. That is the locus for all kinds of information about the show. What we're doing what we're up to what we've done in the past. My God we've got over one hundred ten episodes now. So by all means give a chance to to listen download link to whatever you wanna do with all those episodes. They're all yours for you. And hope you enjoy them in a way, your commentary, and you can send us Email from the from the site. You can send us you could sign up for our newsletter, which we send out each and every week. And of course, you're gonna find all of our social media links there as well. And again, if you're on Twitter, you'll find us at good seats, still if you're on Instagram, you'll find set good seats still available, and if you're on Facebook, find a page devoted to us there to forgot sakes. There's no shortage aways to to follow indoor interact with us here at the show, and we curd you and appreciate you doing. So in all of those many different four, we also want to send our, thanks. Tip afar. Cleveland Indians, were spiders or whatever baseball to our pal Jerry Payne, who of course, this week has gone through hell and high water to make sure that my rough and jagged edge pieces are nicely and smoothly but together into something comprehensible, and he of course, at pod. Fly productions the experts in helping podcasters do what they do. Check them out at pod fly dot net. Thank you tremendously for listening. This far. We look forward to talking to you in the next couple of weeks for now the box office is closed. Take care, buddy.

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12/06: It's taken more than 30 years, but the undefeated DePaul Blue Demons are back, baby

CBS Sports Eye On College Basketball Podcast

56:42 min | 11 months ago

12/06: It's taken more than 30 years, but the undefeated DePaul Blue Demons are back, baby

"Hey there it's Gary Perez is Friday December six two thousand nineteen welcome back to the CBS Sports College basketball. podcast where we sometimes discuss CAM fighting leaky Black Matinee Orlando's here we've been Orlando what's up. It's Friday morning parish which I got a dead deer in my front yard right now. I woke up inside of a David. David Lynch Movie Sell My. I'm freaked out. I'm happy I'm here with you because it's comfortable it's cozy but I wake up. My wife brings is our four year old pulls out of the driveway to take him to pre K.. She calls me goes. We've got a dead deer in our front yard right now and I go. I don't there's no dear I don't see it. It's tucked behind Hind Bush from my vantage point. So I walked to another side of the house where I can look and sure enough. It's like it's like thirty feet from the road. I live off of a relatively busy road but I'm not like off on a cul de sac in the neighborhood. So we have there's consistent traffic in front of our house and this doesn't look like a situation where we had a deer ear hit by a car and it. Just you know wound up on the sidewalk or tenor ten or twelve feet from the road. This this puppy is like twelve fifteen yards deep into our yard and I'm freak the hell out right now. I'm ret- right now Paris. I call this this so I see my wife goes. You GotTa Call Animal Control Because we actually live near elementary middle school and high school when our kids get older. They're going to be they're going to be able to walk to school. I can hit the high school with a driver from where I live. And so she says you gotTa Call Animal Control so I call I call animal control and I have never dealt with this before and they go. Okay so is dear on your yard and I said Yeah. Yeah it's like it's not on the road is like no. It's like twenty five thirty feet into the road. I don't know if it just thought this is where it's like okay. This is where I'm going to die. This is where I want to die right here and the woman goes well. We don't take we. Don't take deer off of people's property we don't even deal with dear. That's highway control. I said I said Okay and she said Yeah. You'RE GONNA WANNA call highway control but highway control won't go on people's property to remove animals still only take it if it's on the side of the road and I said hold up so you're telling me right now that I've gotta go pole. What I presume is a two hundred and fifty pound animal twenty five feet from my yard to the side of the road for highway? Control the take it and she said Yeah. That's that's that's that's usually what happens in instances like this and I'm thinking instances like this. How often do you have a dead deer in someone's yard and you're asking these now I understand is my property terrified right now? I'm going to take a picture. Would you do. How comfortable would you be? Let's for the sake of the conversation conversation. It's not so heavy that you can't move it you're capable of doing. I have no idea he I don't know can you. Have you ever pulled a deer in your life. WHOA Have you ever have you ever where we sometimes talk gamble fighting leaky black and dead deer after five deer living. I've been listening to live and Mississippi. You live in Mississippi. These things might. This is very. Your story is very much a Mississippi Story. I live in Mississippi. I my wife hit the deer not too long ago. We were in a a courtesy car from a car dealership. That was a advertiser on the radio. Show it wasn't even my car my wife's driving a car dealerships car hit a deer and so we called it was lying on. The road wasn't completely dead but it was like it. It wasn't going to survive but at one dead yet. And so we call the whoever you gotTa Cau- and they come out and they're like what happened and she's like I was driving in a run out and I hit the deer and they said okay. We'll handle this and I was like okay. They're going to handle the next thing. I hear pop. They shut theorizes in so with that seemed to that was aggressive humane but like yeah but like Geez I would expect it I never seen. I'm I'm from Mississippi. That's true but I've never been a hunter. I've never hunted. Yes I've never seen a deer with is get shot. It was startling. It's creepy as eth- man. I walked up to this thing before we podcast and I was like I just gotTa look at what's going on here. It's eyes are open like I'm looking at it and I'm thinking my seeing this thing still breathing. Am I seeing the stomach like like gently go up and down. I was like I don't think so. And then like you want to back away but you WANNA get closer. I gotta and live near all these schools. It's like I got kids walking past our house. Go into middle school going to the high school and they got this dear next to our tree in our front yard. Like what am I doing learn. How am I living right now? What is going on can't you okay? So here's here's what. I think my plan would be if I were you. You get a couple of high school kids in need like us paying twenty bucks to pull it dead deer two thousand feet. They'll do that. Kids don't care I guess he they probably don't but it's it's ten thirty eastern in here. I got about high school. It's about choose thirty so I got four hours to go. Get the cash stand at the end of my driveway. Wait for these for these. These fourteen fifteen year olds to walk by and be like. Hey forty bucks. If you guys pull this twenty five feet you get arrested for trying to recruit high school kids to pull a dead bureau your property. I'M GONNA take a photo and post it to twitter after this podcast. It's it's just it's it's creepy as hell. I mean I just I felt like I. I was in an episode of Twin Peaks so anyway we can get to hoops here but it is. It is not common when we start the POD and there is a significant life event that has happened and psychologically psychologically damaged me. But that's that's what I'm living with right now if you don't have video by the end of this day of you pulling dead deer yard they're gonNA have opportunities the top pulling a dead deer. It's not gonNA it's not GonNa Happen Okay not I guess my wife's like do we. Should we cover it. And I'm like we don't even can have tarp and she's like do you want to put one of our blankets over it as like then. We're burning the blanket like I'm not gonNA keep. I'm not going to wash the blanket that I'm covering with with a dead deer ear. That's not happening. Hey hey sweetheart of Saturday night. The kids are asleep. Let's cut it up on the couch with our dead deer blanket. Watch a movie doc sick. That's sick okay anyway. We got some good basketball talk about an by good. I mean depaul right. Is that where you want to start. It is where I WANNA start. I WanNa start by doing something. We've literally never done before. And that's discuss at length. The Depaul Blue Demons the undefeated depaul blue demons on Wednesday Night Produce Smash Virginia by twenty nine. I Ohio's date embarrassed. North Carolina by twenty five and yet by the end of the night. All anybody was doing was tweeting about the Paul Final score sixty five sixty they beat Texas Texas tech in overtime and yes I know Texas Tech had just last week lost to Iowa and Creighton and I you know I wrote an entire politics column about a Doodoo clearly. Didn't know that Abbott and I also also know that Texas Tech's leading score Jemima's Ramsey didn't play in the game got a hamstring injury. But why focus on that when we can focus on the Paul being nine and for for the first time since the nineteen eighty six eighty seven season. Norlander you're enjoying the story as much as I'm enjoying the story. I'm so enjoying this story. Nine oh the Texas tech game was one of those weirdly thrilling awesome bad games. You know I was watching most of it on the on the second. TV there and and it was it was it was bumpy for a while there and then it just becomes thrilling like gets overtime. Jalen Coleman lands is just going nuts hitting these threes to keep them alive and actually traded some threes as late there and they did it despite Charlie Moore the Kansas transfer not really having a good game overall. Paul reads men a great player this season. This is an awesome story story man like I don't know if it will continue for can't continue. I think it probably can. They got buffalo this weekend. Then they've got you I see and then they play at Cleveland. State obviously Obviously a very bad Cleveland state team then it's northwestern at home at wintrust. Were Paul Place to. There is the possibility. There is the possibility to Paul twelve zero. Oh heading into biggies play at the end of the month. That would be an incredible story if it beat Buffalo on Sunday. I think it's near locked. Paul is going to be ranked. You've got them in the top top twenty five and one I did my power rankings and I was just draped in Paul Fever I put him at number nine not that I think it's the ninth best team but with the way they are playing and getting. The road wins against Boston. 'cause I know not that good but they've won at Iowa at Boston College at Minnesota. Three true road wins. I just I just you know what I just went totally overboard and I love it. So yeah and DePaul fans were very this fan base and yes depaul fan base okay. It's in it's in second third largest the city in the country they have been starving forever last made the tournament. Two Thousand Four. Who was the coach? Extend well of course it was Dave Lehto just left and then returned since then. This is his second coaching tenure. So I really love the story. We get a few genuine surprises every season the sport no one saw depaul nine. Oh come and I love it man I love it well. What makes us different? I think 'cause like listen Teams that were supposed to be bad are good every year. Every year it happens to open this was picked last in in the SEC. Last season in the preseason went to the NC Double A. Tournament spent part of the season ranked. But it didn't get the buzz that depaul gets in the reason. I think the reason this is different is is because. I'm not sure exactly how this happened. You might know depaul became like the Punch Line of college basketball. Almost like nickelback has become come here punch line of music like if you're going to make a music joke you tie it to nickelback right you turn on Game Day on Saturday morning. Somebody's buddies got Jim. Harbaugh likes nickelback side like ride nickel bag just sort of became this thing now. Nickelback is let me be clear. I'm not a fan. I don't only albums but like hugely originally successful band sell arenas and yet they become this punchline of music similarly the Paul's not the worst basketball team in division one and or anything close to that never has been and yet. If you were GONNA make a basketball joke DePaul became the the name that you you used. And so what. We're watching right now with depaul being nine to know nationally relevant with a win over. Yes shorthanded in flog. Texas Tech Tech Team but a Texas tech team that played for the National Championship last season and was preseason top. Fifteen in the people this season what we're watching is like like if nickelback suddenly had album of the year. That's what Paul and Anne nationally relevant is. It's like if if the nickelback in the year two thousand nineteen won a grammy for album of the year. It's a total total plot with mega plot twists. And ask just as a a side note depaul being this was surprising. How about the fact that the only two teams still undefeated in the big east are depaul and the Butler bulldogs who are eight? No Oh and doing well for themselves as well and they got a big game on Saturday against Florida there Ya credit to credit to Lehto because you know what news came out in the off season that depaul which by the way was tangentially even connected to the FBI investigation because of assistance on the staff and connections with some recruits there. There was news that you know they were working on extending Dave latest contract and that became a joke that became a punchline where it was like. It's the Paul like like. He's so far under five hundred first career. They finished above five hundred last season. Nineteen seventeen. But we're again among the worst teams in the big east as usual and now how it just it seems to be paying off here and You know you get a player. Like Coleman lands who it's taken him four or five seasons to two seemingly click he was he was okay player Illinois but never the player that People thought he would be. He's been good. Paul read into a nice player overall. Romeo weems James is a nice freshman. They're so credit to the blue demons. I don't yet know if this team is going into the tournament. But I'd really love to see that you get these schools that can Can End these droughts and for if you're in a power conference which Depan Liz and you should never ever go more than ten years without making the tournament now. I understand. It happens but that's really not that should never be the case. Depalma just been has been to college basketball now. What the clippers were to the NBA for about two and a half half decades? And while I don't think the Paul is going to turn into the modern day clippers or anything like that they don't got a quiet on this squad they certainly can compete and be a player and they we. We could see one of the longest in fact. I I gotta believe. That's the longest power conference Strafford Tournament for any program America. They do not have Leonard heard on the depaul roster but they do have a charlie more average of fifteen point nine point seven assists three rebounds in thirty three point one minutes per game. What a story? He is shooting thirty seven point. Eighty percents of three point range. This dude has lived everywhere from Chicago. COMMITTED TO MEMPHIS at a high school decommitted. When Josh Pastor left for Georgia Tech went went to cal played one season transferred to Kansas set out played last season at Kansas but just barely average two point nine points and thirteen point one minutes per game transferred transferred to Depaul and now he's looking like an all big east player so that's a young man from Chicago bounced around now back home and flourishing? So that's nice. It is nice and just a quick note on on Texas Tech Texas Tech Five and three three straight losses. Here you know dropped two games against Iowa and Creighton out out New Orleans during Thanksgiving the winds are over you know low major fodder Just no one of note. There and next comes versus Louisville Number One ranked Louisville Louisville should be number one again obviously when they play Tuesday at the Jimmy V. I will be there at the garden for that game but I don't know if you picked up on this parish or not but the final four teams from last season Texas Tech Five and three Michigan State five and three both hugely under underachieving. This point in Virginia Nya although it only has one loss lost brutally by twenty nine points and it has absolutely no offense and then you've got the Auburn Tigers us who are eight and Oh and they need to not to win on Wednesday night against Furman but as we are prep for the podcast and we will talk about tech it just kind of popped in my mind Auburn hasn't gotten the love but they're the only team that that looks above expectation of what they were thought to be. preseason twenty five team and all that stuff but But a lot aww final four hangovers for those programs right now. No question so shafted. A Paul started seventy-six Akin Palm Up to fiftieth. Now you mentioned could be twelve and Oh when they start big tin. I mean big east play I think it's it's reasonable to assume they'll be thirteen. We know they'll at least be favored in every game between now and when they get Seton Hall on December thirtieth let me make picture. That's right nine. Ten eleven twelve thirteen. They should be thirteen to know heading into that. Seton Hall game on December Thirtieth. It's a home game and if they win that I don't know if they'll be on everybody's top twenty five ballot before that game e even if they're thirteen no but if they are to knock out Seton Hall and you move to fourteen fourteen to know with wins over Texas Tech Seton on those road winds reference then it will be. I think impossible for anybody to keep them off the top twenty five ballot so anyway anyway interesting story In the Big East to Paul is nationally relevant like I mentioned earlier. Norlander also Virginia got his brains beaten in Wednesday night so to North Carolina. We're GONNA get into that next. I though check this out championship. Saturday can get pretty busy. And that's why you need to have lots of different screens. That's why you need to have lots the different streams and CBS. Sports network is happy to announce that the conference USA Championship game which can be seen on. CBS Sports Network will also be streamed on CBS sports dot com or with the CBS sports mobile APP. All you need to do is log in through your cable provider the conference. USA Essay Championship promises to be Great. We've got you a be an fa you the hardware is on the line and you know that these teams are looking to add something to their trophy case so if you WANNA watch UAB and Fau you WanNa make sure that you do it with the stream which is available on CBS sports dot com or CBS sports mobile APP kickoffs is at one thirty eastern time. Fau Conference USA Championship. All you need to do is log in through your cable provider toll. Yeah this is Brian Campbell with a CBS. Sports State of combat. PODCAST reminded you to get some of this. If you love combat sports we've got you covered each week with separate episodes so it's centered upon the latest news in boxing mixed martial arts and pro wrestling each week. It's the biggest recaps previews and interviews. You need to hear that unmistakable. All dose of performance enhancing audio every week. It's the state of combat. PODCAST with the Brian. cavell subscribe download. Today so sulfur genius thirteen game. Winning streak was snapped Wednesday night. They lost sixty nine. Forty at purdue. Virginia missed twenty of twenty four three point a tips. It was ugly meantime. North Carolina took its worse loss at home under Roy Williams ever tar heels seventy four forty nine Ohio state they Miss Sixteen twenty three three point. Attempts are Mondo Bakut. Bakut left that game just seven minutes in with an ankle injury. Roy has subsequently said he expects the freshman. Big's going to be quote out a while. Norlander you you had. I went and looked it up this morning. Dealing with a dead deer North Carolina and Virginia finishing first and second in the ACC in the free season if allowed to reconsider right now. Would you reconsider right now. Oh boy I would reconsider. But I'll I'll dig my heels in December sixth ext long season to come here those offenses they've issues here now. UNC We're going to them in a second but they lost bacon so it's not like it's calling anthony absolutely absolutely nobody but it certainly looks like that. Virginia that was the I mean that was the nightmare scenario for for the. Wha who's just in terms of how they lost and what everything that went wrong. It was the first regular season loss for Virginia since they dropped a game against Duke Back in early February. So impressive run comes to an end there but there's just no denying that the offense is going to be a you know when I did the court report earlier this week and I led with all the stuff on Virginia had a chance to be the best defense of the modern era. That can still by the way happened. I mean it's still comfortably. The Best Defense in in college basketball right now. Opponents are only averaging like forty three game best defensive efficiency all that all that stuff but I did not. I had a quick line in there. I didn't address the offense. I said we'll save that for another time. We'll we can address that here right now because because it's just bad then they don't get to the foul line they can't shoot. Three's all three forty seven. The Nation from beyond the ARC. Twenty four percent of their trays raise. And here's the thing you're not you're eight games into your schedule and you're shooting twenty three point eight percent your best case scenario. If you're Virginia your best case case scenario is that you get that to like thirty percent at the end of the season and even that's not gonNa be good enough so in the modern era. Even if you have the best defense ever Virginia fans that are hoping like okay maybe week epoch defense and we can even sneak back into a final four. If you can't hit more than a quarter of your threes that's just not going to happen Because you're going to run into teams a lot. Closer to the level of purdue than the level of James Madison a Mediocre Syracuse. He's team and Arizona State team that might not even get to the tournament Overall so yeah I have my questions here. They don't have the perimeter shooters. They don't Braxton key. I understand that but But had they had braxton key on floor they might have lost by twenty two instead of twenty nine against purdue and one more note on the game perish and take it wherever you want purdue fifth camp home it's just not can bumper do ranks as a top fifteen team almost every mainstream advanced predictive metric so while it has three losses text Marquette in Florida state. Those are relatively respectable losses. The only one coming home by four to Texas that was a case where produce favourite. Maybe looked a little bit. We are going in there. Because they're four and three record but you can understand why sometimes these predictive models can be reliable. And certainly that's the case they are right now because all though the boiler makers don't have a strong record they look like a strong team. I don't think they're the top ten team in America but I definitely think that they are top twenty five quality without question real quick on perdue because I had somebody asked me when the top twenty five and one on Thursday they morning and I didn't have a win there. Joe Purdue is exactly what you said top five and all of these different computer rankings including Kim Palm and coming off of a twenty nine point win over the reigning national champions. Like how can you not rank that team The truth is they're five and three with two losses to unranked teams. If I would have put purdue in the top twenty five and one. It wouldn't have been ridiculous. I mean you could. I could easily justified if you asked me to. But if I would have put purdue in the top twenty five and one with this body of work they would be the only team in the top twenty five in one with two losses to unranked teams. Nobody else listed has that on their resume may right now. So purdue is undeniably good. But I think it's reasonable to leave them unranked right now if you choose to leave them unranked right now with Virginia Jinya you know just some more numbers that are disturbing. You mentioned the twenty three point. Eight percent from three point range breaking three forty seven in the country. They're effective field. Goal percentage is forty four point. Eight eight that's two hundred ninety nine in the country. They're now one hundred and twentieth an offensive efficiency. It is. It's bad any way you look at it. And and so people will often after a game goes a certain way particularly a game is lopsided in a certain direction who who does say more about right. We've all heard that what is what does it say about who. Who does more about this team or that team and I think if we we ought to take these two games where the schools got hammered on Wednesday night and asked that question I would say that purdue beating Virginia by twenty nine points it's like it says more about Virginia about the limitations that that team is going to have especially in undeniably on the offensive into the court and yet you asked me the same question about North Carolina Ohio State? It says more about Ohio State. I think states really really really good. They now got a twenty four point win over villa. You know in a twenty five point win over North Carolina. You can fluky shoot your way to a twenty point win over a good opponent. One time name but when you're smashing everybody and beating you know nationally ranked teams by more than twenty points multiple times. I don't think that's an accident. I think that says it. You're you got the goods wonderful night for the big ten on Wednesday Purdue doing what it did and yes Ohio state just smashing North Carolina which lost Armand Obey Cut But like if Virginia would've lost by twenty two instead of twenty nine with Braxton key then. UNC loses by eighteen instead twenty-five if they've got bacon on the floor there are we going to ask you to spoil one are we gonNA talk. UNC UVA in the final form one. I didn't put it in the final because I figured we would get to it right here because they do. That's another sort of interesting thing about this. Both these teams are at least on paper in the preseason supposed to be national championship contenders and yet. Now they're both coming off losses by more than twenty points. They're both missing key the players and they play each other on Sunday. So somebody's GonNa go to bed Sunday night. Either Roy Williams Tony Bennett on a two game. Losing streak in those aren't men who usually deal with that kind of stuff. Yeah and the game is obviously you know you. You look and you haven't even done your Christmas shopping yet. And you've got Virginia and purdue Virginia and North Carolina Plan. You're like well. This is weird will. This is a function of twenty game. Ac I see schedule and so you've got ACC. Intra League Games on Saturday and Sunday in college basketball. which is like it's a fun? Little Perk there be. It's a little weird Good on the ACC. By the way if you've got to do this this is what you absolutely do you. SPRINKLE in a couple of high profile in league games before we get to stick to the schedule. I'm not saying do Carolina. It feels more appropriate when that first meeting happens right around Valentine's Day but Virginia. UNC absolutely absent frequently. Do you do that there. And I. I don't know what the over under is going to beyond this. The Ken projected outcomes sixty one fifty five. Virginia I will you know this isn't going to be an official picker here or whatever but since we're not in the final four and one but I think that average Inya will win the game. I think it will but I'm looking for more than any other just out of curiosity now. Carolina loses loses. It's going to be six and three and I don't. I don't know if it would totally drop out of the polls at that happen happen but just a reminder like Carolina if it loses that game it's got to go to play Atkins Saga on December. Eighteenth still and that will see him the person a few days after that in Vegas at the CBS Sports Classic Against Ucla Team that yes UNC should win that game without a doubt but the heels could really be up against it in a major way in call Anthony. He's been been solid. I still like the frontline there. If they can can get back and get healthy there but can I be real human like they need more outta leaky black. They need more leaky black. Okay we sometimes talk camel fighting dead deer and leaky black and we gotta talk about leaky black here. Real Quick Twenty eight point six percent from two point range only four of ten from three. He's a solid power forward type but it's time for leaky to step up if Carolina is going to be one of the two best teams in the ACC this season. It can't just all be coal leaky. This is our plea. You time to step up live live up to the name. We need you time to stop. Stop worrying so much about your next nick state in focus on basketball. Because because you're you're not getting it done right now. Twenty six point minute at Twenty six point nine minutes per game. Four point eight points. Four point five rebounds and we shooting thirty one percent from from the field I think he needs pop. Johnson Puff Johnson coming next season and when that when that team of happens home. Thank God it's GonNa be like watch the throne it is. We're GONNA have any black up. Johnson come together to create. Watch the throne. We're going to have those guys team up and give us our new bumper music music to start the show. Okay we did bring the highest state and I do want to get to them. They are number two in my power rankings only behind Louisville. Because at this point you own twenty five point win over were Villanova and North Carolina undefeated. You go on the road. You look. That good defense is Great. It's not just caleb western although he has been terrific as well DJ cartons stepping open up to weigh in Washington has been strong and Chris Holtman coach. They've also defeated Cincinnati by the way but he just has a roster. When you look at it? You wouldn't think that this team is set up to a top ten in the sport. Ohio state was in Paris's preseason top twenty five even want it was easily in the top twenty top twenty of my one two three fifty three so we expected the buckeyes top. Three top four caliber in. What's turning out to be a big ten? But but they are ahead of schedule to stay the least here. Next episode Penn State at home on Saturday would fully expect the Buckeyes to win that interleague game so credit to them and a little bit of irony here was a year ago when the net rankings debuted for the first time in Ohio state which was just okay at that. Point was weirdly the number one team in the net rankings and then that became reason for people to just you know mock the net way prematurely but Yeah here we're going to get the net rankings. At about eight to ten days won't stunned me. If in back to back years the first publicly known version of the net has the Buckeye sitting sitting at number one in those rankings. Keep an eye on that. Because they got penn state at Minnesota and then after I think he's right on that Minnesota Games when we'll get the net Very very possible. Awesome that Ohio state sitting there and Holson good job. They look like parents. They look like the best team in the big ten right now. I gotta say that after what Michigan could not do against Louisville. Did you forget mark turgeon exist. I think Ohio state's better than Maryland. Right now it's not crazy. I mean I could put them in any order. I've got him. I think right now Maryland Three Ohio state four. But if you want to argue Ohio state's better There's a lot of data that suggests that certainly Ohio state has accomplished more in the season if the question because I had you know how state finance. Oh how good you have to ask as much as Yale. How could you have America it ahead of us it's just a byproduct of the preseason rankings Maryland was six preseason top twenty five and one Maryland undefeated? That's how Maryland history. It's it really is as simple as that now Maryland did a nice win last weekend but certainly to this point. If your point is Ohio state's been more impressive I I can't argue against that and I tell you it's the second straight year that I'm Chris Opens just got off to an amazing star started twelve and one last season and and then they they. They fell apart a little bit. So keep that in mind but this season now off to an eight zero start but the metrics are all really really really good I think after they blasted Villanova. 'CAUSE you're right. We both had them in the top twenty five and one preseason but it doesn't appear we had them high enough and I texted the Chris and I was like Yeoman next time. Can you just tell me like Joe. GP You've got me. You've got me way underrated again. Never like you need to get me into the top ten and he was like I. It's still bill early and things he always says but he is tremendous and he's got another really good team and I'm looking forward to seeing them in person December twenty first. CBS Sports Classic. Las Vegas the opponent will be Kentucky and right now. According to Kim Pom State would be expected to win that game. Sixty five sixty two one last thing before we moved to the final four and one circling back to North Carolina. I still have them in the top ten of the top twenty five and one in the reason it has because their two losses are to the teams. I have fourth and fifth in the top twenty five in one Ohio state in Michigan so. I don't think it's unreasonable. When you've got a win over Oregon and losses to two teams in the top five for me to still have you in the top ten but I'm also not ignorant to the numbers and this is a team that is trending the wrong direction? They started six to Kim Palm their twenty fourth right now so even though they've got a big win over Oregon and the the the losses are not embarrassing losses their losses two teams. I have in the top five right now. the the you know the numbers connected to them are trending in the wrong direction and now without Bakut it could continue to do so. So they'd guest stuff to get fixed. We'll see if they get. It fixed again. Virginia North Carolina Plant in Charlottesville. On Sunday et Al Right. Let's get to the final four and one and you want the update of this mixture. Our records are are matched up you at nine ten and one. I've got me at eight eleven and yes okay. So I'm one game behind you but this is the weekend Orlando where I catch you once and for all. Aw In make you just I'm GonNa drag you like a dead tear by the way hold on I got I so as in. We're going to make these picks but I tweeted out the the photo of dead deer on twitter. The reply I gotta read a couple of pride. I'm giving. I'm giving people shout right now on this because because some of them are great Gosh someone says this is a message. Take it easy on. UNC on the PODCAST. Benny side goes still moves. Faster Than Virginia. In Your Guy The handle at Zion money son goes no need to brag that you own land because I said I it was on my front yard. My Gosh somebody goes fairfield beaten. SCC team now. This I live in Fairfield County in in Connecticut and then another one goes God is telling you to take the under on Fairfield. Fairfield is the stags deer. So that's why people are doing this. Oh my gosh and then someone else go anthony. Weyermann goes goes quote Kentucky. Should be in. You're not in your top nineteen signed God because I did not put the Kentucky wildcats in my power rankings. You all made me chuckle. As I was doing his pockets checking the replies as Paris talking earlier. Please don't drag me like a dead deer okay. Let's get to the Games Paris. What do you got okay? So the way the final foreign one works pick four games. We use point spreads if they're available if not we use the projected. Kim Palm scores to set a point spread the norlander. NORLANDER gets to pick the final game. That is one we will pick them all against the spread. We'll keep tally. I think we're playing for concert tickets or something. I don't even know. Well actually we actually we we. You need to decide the no because the concert tickets are and someone sent me this after we did it so I have in my notes. I just don't have in front of me. The concert ticket was we took the draft kings prediction over under for like fourteen teams. Remember you probably don't okay so you remember you actually do remember this okay so we so that whoever gets more of those correct. That's who has the winner gets to go to their concert of choice the losers to buy the tickets. We actually need some sort of wager riding on the season long stuff. So let's try and get that. Let's give ourselves a week to try and figure out what we're GONNA do do. Their winter winner gets to keep the dead deer. The dead deer is going to be off my property by the time. Half these people have listened to this podcast. So that's it's not happening. Winner the winner while why would the winner want the dead deer. Why would the winner want Bambi? That makes sense. I Live Mississippi. People dead there in their houses. The people have did deer on the walls. I'm not I'm not shipping. You a dead deer. I don't even know I don't even think that's that's allowable by the way I don't even think you can cross state lines with what's on my a front yard right. Now she shipped me. That did dear RIPTA deers head. You want you want me to go out. Oh get some sort of machete. If I give myself we'll tennis elbow with the machete getting that dead deer off ship it to you. I can't I can't I can't do that if I gave you the proper tools and five hundred dollars now. Would you cut that off. I why would cut the diers. I would define proper tools like whatever you need to do it. Well like is it like. It's easier zero with a chainsaw. Now that's going to get messy like do I have facial I have do I do I have. I don't even know when you're when you're working the iron and you put it over your face and there's just like this small there's a small little I glass thing you know what I'm talking about. Like if if I can have one of those. I have no idea what that's called if I have one of those things and you're giving me a chainsaw and I've got like a whole outfit seven fifty but if you're telling me that I I need to that I need to do this with some sort of machete or any kind of proper animal tool i. I think I'm going to need to grand minimum. I could not. I don't think I could cut the. I don't think I could bring myself to do it already. Dead Animal. Yeah yeah or anything. I don't think anybody's head off or anything. I don't know how people to dead man. I don't know these these and we're going to a dark place right now by the way we're talking about concerts Bring this up. Only because I know we have a By definition we have a lot of college basketball fans Who Listen To this and college basketball is very big in the Durham North Carolina area? I would see Dave Chapelle spell last night and he was awesome tremendous. It's all new material. He's got like it feels like if he needed if he wanted to record new Netflix special tonight he could do it. And I say that. Because he's going to be in Durham North Carolina tomorrow night so Saturday night right Sunday night and then Tuesday night. He's got three shows in Durham North Carolina. So if you are a basketball fan listening to this and Dave Chapelle Fan Fan and somebody. WHO's on the fence about whether you want to go or not? I'm telling you you will not be disappointed. He was a tremendous to the final four and one first game Saturday today. Noon eastern number twelve Arizona at number eighteen Baylor Kim palm has a projected score. That would lead to a line of a Baylor minus four norlander. What you want first of all this is a free game because the Baylor football team is kicking off at noon on each eastern? I believe it's noon Eastern Against Oklahoma for the big twelve championship. This game is tipping off. I guess simultaneously or an hour beforehand and and being that it is Texas and it is Baylor. The tickets are free for this. which is the best bargain in sports? This weekend I'm actually interested to see how many people show up for this now. You've had Josh Korean and Nico Manion I think they're going to play but they have been practicing all week. So keep that in mind in Paris as you go. We pick this game. But I reached out to Scott drew when I learned that. This is a free admission. And he's like if you can do something good for somebody white right and I do something great for somebody and Yeah this is on the house or for Baylor Athletics. I think that's just a really cool thing overall. So that being said I'm GonNa Take Baylor here to win and and to cover because maybe we not might not get Arizona full strength. I just don't know what to expect there. They're going to have the home venue because it's free maybe get a little bit of a stronger. Homecourt advantage Baylor actually doesn't have a usually a typically great home crowd until early February just due to nature program. It just doesn't trust much fan support so I will go with the bears Paris. I have this correct. This is one of only two rank matchups this weekend it would be this and then obviously UNC UvA there if there are others. I assume there were picking them but those are the only two that Spring to mind. There's at least two more. Okay then I just don't know what the hell and talking about okay. I'm taking daily real quick on Arizona. Zeke Naji Arizona enrolled another great recruiting class to five stars one of them was Nico Man in the other. One was Josh Green and yet Zeke. Ninety is the leading score leading rebounder leading the team in blocks and Phil go percentage right now. Four four star prospect ranked fortieth in the class of two thousand nine hundred. And Nico's been amazing but again if you go. And just WHO's lead the team in points rebounds blocks field goal percentage that he's been a terrific I'm GonNa Take Arizona plus the four just because I think either team can win this game. So if you're gonNA give me four points I'll take him. But but I I if I had to pick just a winner. I picked Baylor to win the game. But I'm GONNA take the pause for because I don't think it's crazy for Arizona. Bill Win in Waco all right next game Saturday seven PM Eastern. Here's one of the Games between ranked teams number twenty Colorado at number to Kansas and can palm a the project the point spread of Kansas minus eight Colorado off to its best start in almost forty years ears. They are seven. Oh this is set to be probably the best Colorado team and at least twenty five seasons two guys. You should know about if you you don't already tyler. He's my bay very solid junior power forward. I can't believe I just said that. McKinley right. The fourth is the other guy to know. He's a point guard. I think that Taliban McKinley right the fourth will will look for years from now and they're both going to be on NBA roster here no doubt Tad Boyle would love if he could keep both these guys for for another season so a year from now Colorado could be. Potentially you know like a top ten team in America but we'll see if that can happen. This is a tough task. It's a tall task. I did put the buffs in my power. Rankings ranked sixteenth which published Thursday. You can read that on. CBS Sports APP eight point spread. I think Kansas has really solid here but I'll take Colorado to cover in this spot. I I like what I've seen from Kansas. I think that you know even what they've done with. Maui they get they get the benefit that say a Michigan State. Didn't they went to Maui. They haven't had to play in a week and a half year which is good for the show which is good for the body clock so I think Kansas will win. But you're going to be eight take Colorado to cover. You mentioned McKinley right in Tyler Bay. When we did our top one hundred and one players in the PRESI McKinley right was number sixteen? Tie Bay a number fifty nine tyler. Perry now leading team in points and rebounds fourteen points eleven point nine rebounds shooting forty five point five percent from three. He's right now tyler tyler number six in the palm player of the year ratings so he is Having a tremendous start to the season I will will. We had one we. When did our coaches who's GonNa win the National Championship? We did have one coat say Colorado you are correct. I just remembered that that happened It if we had more than one hundred votes Michigan State one person Colorado. If you're listening you know who you are. Yeah right so far so good. They look good and so- Kansas minus eight. I'm GonNa Take Colorado plus eight. I just think it's too many points. I think Keynes's wins the game like. I don't believe I'll ever bring myself to to pick against Kansas at home almost anybody but so I'm not doing that here. But if you're gonNA give me an undefeated Colorado automate points. I'm going to take the team in the eight points on Sunday. Four PM Eastern Number Nineteen Dayton against saint. Mary's in Phoenix. Kim Palm has a projected points of Dayton minus. Two beautiful weekend basketball here. A lot of interesting games reason why we're getting. This is not just the twenty game league schedules schedules but as many schools prepare the following week to go into finals. This is the one weekend where you squeeze in when you're working in April may June to train nine Assembled a non conference schedule. And you're trying to get another Quality game this is the weekend. We're a lot of schools. Try and do it at credit. Saint Mary's we ragged on rag on him in the past for not you know scheduling scheduling up here. Now this is this game is taking place at the famous talking. Stick resort arena as part of the The hall of fame deal. This was the same spot saying we can last season. We're actually Gonzaga. Tennessee played what I thought was a top five game of the regular season. We'll see if we can get some more of that. Juju there I put Dayton in my power rankings. I did not put saint. Mary's I will go with Dayton here. I still am a believer very very excited to watch this game. Especially since my bears. My bears got to win against the cowboys Thursday night. NFL Sunday it's freed up here. I'm excited to dig into all the hoops on Saturday and Sunday. I I will go with Dayton to win and that would mean winning by at least two I like them here. But these are both quality teams and you should expect in the. I use the word expect at this point. I think that's fair. Expect that both of these teams will be in the instability. Tournament Saint. Mary's unranked right now but nine one on the season they got a nice one of Wisconsin. A Nice win over Utah. State the problem. Is They lost early to winthrop somehow. Sixty one fifty nine at home. And that's what's knocked them out of the rankings. KNOCKED THEM OFF People's radar Dr but there are two points from being ten and right now with wind over Wisconsin in Utah State they would be ranked if not for a two point loss at home to winter. So that's a that's a good team but but I'm in love with ob top. Like plus. I'm the I don't know who you're talking to here. But I'm the M Sea of the Atlantic ten media say there's no scenario against ob top in Dayton as the the Atlantic ten media days I'm taking Dayton minus two in my fourth game Sunday seven PM Eastern Number Nine Gonzaga at number twenty two Washington Gonzaga. According to Kim Palm is a projected. Two point favorite. I'm GONNA take Washington. I'M GONNA take like Washington as the dog to win straight up. GimMe Mike what. Yeah that's right you heard me. Yeah give me the. Give me the dogs here. Gonzaga has owned this rivalry. I love that the school still play each other This is a geographically sensible label rivalry that has continued and should continue in perpetuity But I feel like the public would be on Gonzaga in this spot I'll I'll ride. I'll ride Washington here. It's been good the only loss to Tennessee so far. Best winners against Baylor not much gels. They're so this is going to be an interesting test for them. But I'M GONNA I'm GonNa Lean I think nausea Carter's been terrific for Washington Isaiah Stewart's rightfully got a lot of puppies when adopting and freshman Jaden mcdaniels. Not Quite as much. Maybe he has a big game. GimMe U. DUB I'll go Gonzaga to be different but I do not like picking entering teams the home then just take Washington like you don't have to take Gonzaga two different. I want you to take what's in your heart. That thing that I know's goes inside of your chest because you're a caring you're a loving man what what's inside of my heart is wanting to drag you like a dead deer and I can't do that if we mapped on every game. So I'm going Bagga- because I want to my goal here is is is my goal here is to drag you dear because I'm taking the zags minus the two. I will what you said. This game in state rivalry love it. I wish every every state that has schools that have an opportunity to do this. I wish they had it sensible civil. I wish they would do this. You know the Memphis Tennessee. Game is coming up next weekend. And Rick Barnes has already said because he hates Penny Hardaway. He's already said that this is probably condemn it right like literally a year ago. Rick Barnes was publicly saying how much Tennessee Memphis needed to play each other and it benefits both schools goals and it's great for the state and it's something that should never not happen and we'll always happen and now he's like I I'm done with it just gets too so I don't know if the series will really end but rick is talking about ending it. which would be unfortunate because those games matter to the fans if you if if you're if you live in the state of Washington you and you're a Gonzaga fan odds are somebody in your family or somebody you work with? Somebody live near Washington Fan. You have those connections and vice versa. If you're Washington odds are you know somebody married to somebody cousins with somebody who's Gonzaga that connection in the state of Tennessee if you're memphis fan you've got friends or relatives. Who are Tennessee fans? If you're Tennessee fan you've got friends or relatives who are Memphis fans. So those games are fun. And so I give Mike in mark a tremendous amount of credit for making sure. This game happens because games like this should happen Isaiah Stewart and Jim mcdaniels As you pointed out the two five star freshman at Washi