20 Episode results for "Clementi"

The Morning Briefing: Wednesday, February 12

The Briefing

02:06 min | 1 year ago

The Morning Briefing: Wednesday, February 12

"Hello I'm Danny Boyle with the briefing from the Telegraph. It's Wednesday February twelfth and there's a warning about scrapping the BBC licence-fee. So would you really better off if the BBC licence-fee was ditched. Well Save Your household around one hundred and fifty pounds a year. But the corporations Sion's chairman's warning today the effects could run much deeper the government's considering getting rid of the fee when its royal charter ends one option is to turn the BBC into a subscription service. It's chairman Sir. David Clementi's giving a speech today. He warned that Britain will be weakened if the fees removed and he'll describe a future where these plans lead to events like weddings in the Olympics. Becoming pay per view and he's a singer explains why his timing will raise eyebrows in number ten and Tim Stanley's written a piece on why the BBC's in trouble he says it's because British TV just isn't as good as it used to be though emerged one of the eight people. DIAGNOSED WITH CORONA virus in Britain is an am medic that based worthing hospital in West Sussex Staff. There have been since a memo telling them the work who was still treating patients before they became unwell. And we've got some essential reading a practical guide to spotting the symptoms. And I was telling yesterday about the break-up of pizza in Autumn Phillips well our associate editor Tommy's been learning more about what happens next. It's transpired the queen's grandson intends to remain neighbors with these acts and sources told Camilla that Mrs Phillips has no intention of going back to her native North America America unlike the Duchess of Sussex. Her piece is well worth the read. Write stay put. If you're listening on. WHATSAPP will send you those links? Now if you're listening on spotify Apollo wherever you get your podcast. You'll find them in the show notes as well as links to Alvar Dick on the new Samsung rivals to the iphone and makeup for men. One on rights tries it out for himself. Say you're up-to-date crystal have you'll second briefing of the day this evening.

BBC West Sussex Staff Britain Danny Boyle chairman David Clementi Tim Stanley Autumn Phillips Alvar Dick worthing hospital spotify Samsung North America Olympics Sussex associate editor Tommy Camilla
268 - Why Is Cyberbullying So Damaging and How Can You Cope?

The Savvy Psychologist's Quick and Dirty Tips for Better Mental Health

17:46 min | 1 year ago

268 - Why Is Cyberbullying So Damaging and How Can You Cope?

"Bullying is not new that the Internet has raised this dangerous game to a new level bill. Why is cyberbullying so insidious and how can you cope with it? Welcome back the savvy psychologist. I'm Dr Jade Woo every week. All help hope you meet. Life's challenges with evidence based research a sympathetic ear and zero judgment on September. Twenty second two thousand ten eighteen year role. Tyler Clementi jumped to his death from the George Washington Bridge. He had been a student at rutgers. One of many hopeful young people starting an exciting new you face of life at college. But three days before his suicide he had experienced an extreme case of cyberbullying Tyler's roommate and another classmate had used a Webcam to spy on him kissing another male student and then they posted about it on twitter. They even invited others to tune in for a second. Viewing Tyler found out and it's impossible to say what he felt at that moment. All we know is that he took his own life within within days. Tyler's tragedy is not an isolated event in two thousand nine a large survey by the Cyber Bullying Research Center in the the. US found that thirty percent of teens had experienced some form of cyber aggression in the past thirty days. The things they experienced included being targeted rumors mean or prejudice comments having someone impersonate them or even threats cyber bullying is more than a matter of just hurt feelings. A two thousand eighteen study of over thirty one thousand teens found that cyberbullying was a strong predictor of emotional and behavioral problems. This and that this effect remained even when traditional bullying was accounted for. We also know that being a victim and interestingly being a perpetrator to is linked to having more suicidal thoughts and attempts and it's not only teens who are affected adults also experience online aggression and harassment. A two thousand fifteen survey of young women mostly in their twenties. Found that one in five had repeatedly received unsolicited sexual actual lease obscene messages and solicitations. Although this particular study focused on women's experiences it's important to point out that men also experienced cyber aggression. Interestingly one study on perceptions about cyberbullying found that men's reports of these experiences are taken less seriously and people tend to blame the victim. If it's a male we have to be careful not to overlook people's experienced cyberbullying regardless of their age and gender under. So what do we know about cyber bullying and what can we do about it. Well digital technology and social media make for unique modern challenges risk teens and adults today deal with a whole new online world that has only become mainstream in the past couple of decades we have to understand what makes cyberbullying so damaging to help us prevent and cope with it so fact number one about cyberbullying is that the Internet allows allows perpetrators to be more anonymous and removed which amplifies the intensity of the aggression so when you think of the classic playground bully what comes to mind. Probably they're aggressive. They're mean and they're not exactly prone to empathy this applies a cyber bullies to perpetrators. Traders tend to be less empathic less able to put themselves in someone else's shoes. The problem is that the Internet makes it much easier for a person to lean into this trait trait. It's hard to look someone in the eye as you humiliate and hurt them. Most people aren't capable of inflicting emotional pain or physical pain on another one there so up close and personal but online or physically removed from one. Another we can't see the hurt or fear in someone's eyes and and we don't even need to show our face when we interact that dynamic can make some people less inhibited and if someone already leans toward aggression this anonymity distance may be all. They need to be drawn into bad behavior that they wouldn't risk in person. This makes cyberbullying particularly securely hard to combat. Because there are many more people whore capable of hurling nasty threats from behind a keyboard than in face to face interactions. And when we go online we step into a world of less inhibited less accountable and unfortunately less empathic people so what what to do about it. Well first of all don't French strangers on facebook. Even if the people that you know are less inhibited on facebook they aren't hiding behind total anonymity. So that's a layer of protection and if you engage with someone on twitter reddit or another slightly more anonymous platform blocked them right away if they use threatening harassing or prejudice comments remember. You don't have to engage. CYBERBULLIES are not looking for a productive discussion with with you so no amount of reasonable arguments will persuade them in fact your discomfort could reinforce and feed their behavior. Silence silence is the least satisfying response. They can get from you and make sure to get support from forum moderators other participants in the conversation. And the people in your offline life and we'll be back in just a moment with three more facts about cyberbullying and what to do about it. Today's episode is supported by acuity the scheduling assistant. That works twenty four seven behind the scenes to fill your calendar. It takes hours of work off your plate. So you're free to focus on the the big picture stuff with acuity clients can view your real time availability book their own appointments reschedule with a click and even pay online wants wants a booking is confirmed acuity automatically sends personalized confirmation and text reminders. It can also send your clients customizable intake forms I was scheduling. Anna keeps all of their information. Right where you need it and scheduling can help you reach new clients using social media with your facebook business this Patriot instagram booking button. Your next client is only a click away save yourself from the day to day administrative drudgery with acuity scheduling right. Now now you can get forty five days of cutie scheduling absolutely free. No credit card required. Just go to a cutie scheduling dot com slash savvy that's A. C. U. I t. y. scheduling dot com slash savvy. Today's episode is also supported by sips by by the best way to stay warm. This winter sips by is a fun and affordable T- Subscription Club. That helps you discover great. New Tea is the only multi Lebron t subscription box personalized to you. Start by taking the SIP spy quiz at SAP SBY DOT com to find your recommended commended flavors. Then each month sips by it will send you a box with delicious teased. Based on your preferences each box includes enough T- for at least fifteen eighteen cups and you can choose between bag or loose-leaf and caffeinated or caffeine free and even select preferred flavors and account for dietary. Needs I personally love T. I love that different teas can relax or help me. Focus or just be really cozy on a cold winter day and spies helping me discover discover amazing new tees. I never heard of before. And it's really affordable so last night I tried the T.. Pigs Chai tea and it was exactly what I needed to sort of wind down from a busy day curl up on my couch while I read my favorite book so thank you follow at Cyp spy that's SIP IP SBY on Instagram for weekly giveaways and more for podcast listeners. Only use the code savvy for fifty percents off your I spy box at Cyp. Spy Dot Com. That's SIPS BY DOT com. All right we are back. We've already heard about how the Internet can make us feel more removed and therefore less empathic. Now what about bystanders. So fat number two about out cyber bullying and why it's so particularly damaging. Is that bystanders. To cyberbullying are less likely to step in and help so the distance and the anonymity on the Internet that we've already talked about also creates worst bystanders. If one person witnesses a physical physical assault the victim has a potential ally or at least someone to call the police. If a hundred people witnessed the assault. Nobody feels like it's their their responsibility or their place to step in and sometimes they might even think that what's happening. must be normal if so many people are witnessing it. This is called the bystander effect in not only happens in real life it happens online to an even greater extent. This diffusion of responsibility leaves victims more isolated and makes perpetrators more emboldened. So what can you do about it. Well be the positive also change that you want to see it starts with you if you're a bystander. Step in and call out bad behavior and reach out to the victim to offer your support invite others by name to also add their support. So they don't feel like they're just fading into the background. Focus on the behavior itself not the person perpetrating. It make sure to aim your response at calling out bad behavior and supporting the victim rather than shaming the perpetrator because fighting bullying with more bullying is not the answer. Now fact number three. This is a really difficult. One cyberbullying can be really hard a to escape. The Internet exists twenty four seven all around the world and we use it every day. This makes cyberbullying very very hard to avoid read. There isn't a physically safe locations such as home the workplace or even out of town during vacation where a victim can be totally Out of reach. You can't simply move sometimes. You can't even pursue a geographic restraining order to escape the harassment for example in in two thousand and eight. Melissa Anneli started getting threatening messages from someone in New Zealand. Melissa herself lived in the United States. These sexual sexual and violent messages became more and more graphic more and more threatening and eventually Melissa and her family members were receiving postcards and phone calls from the Stalker Walker Mosa is an author and webmaster of the leaky culture in a Harry Potter. Fan Site her experience of cyber stalking was a perfect case. Study of well how difficult it can be to escape because the stalker. who was a Fan Melissa? Banned from a leaky Cauldron Forum for offensive comments did not live in the. US US as Melissa did. The police had no jurisdiction. Eventually the offender was arrested in New Zealand and then arrested again and again but Melissa has reported that the harassment has never fully stopped so what to do in this case while through perseverance. Melissa Anneli was able to get some help from international law enforcement but she has also talked publicly. About how traumatizing. This experience has been N.. Because it took so long to get help and it never really fully solve the problem. Cyber bullying incidents don't have to be as extreme as Melissa to be frustrating and scary experience. So here's what you might consider. Give yourself breaks from the Internet and social media so you can create a safe spaces and times for yourself engaged with your resources to protect yourself. Keep records of the Harassment Report Incidents to webmasters of four moderators report stocking and hate crimes to law enforcement and safeguard personal information. Like your phone number and address and at the same time time. Try Your best to let go of what you cannot control and focus on what you can instead of checking your inbox throughout the day repeatedly or reading reading offensive messages. Spend your time a mental space on other areas of your life that are more fulfilling and give you a sense of mastery. Remember in this case letting go is not resignation or defeat but rather an empowering choice that you can make and lastly even with all that you can be doing everything right to protect yourself and to be coping with cyberbullying but fact number four is that cyber bullying is incredibly congratulating cyber aggression leaves no bruises and scars even though the emotional damage can be just as bad and ironically I wildly abuse can be invisible it can also be very exposing at the same time. We all know that what gets on. The Internet tends to spread and stay even years after the initial cyber bullying. There may be permanent records of humiliating videos sexually intimate pictures and vicious rumors that follow a victim. This can affect every relationship or hopeful relationship that this person has for the rest of their life. These factors actors make cyberbullying a particularly isolating type of trauma. It may be hard to reach out for social support because you may feel intimidated or embarrassed. What about what's going on I can imagine? For example that if say someone's ex-partners spread nude pictures of them on the Internet the last thing they would want is disappoint their family and friends to these pictures and ask for emotional support and even when there's no embarrassing materials present being the recipient pinch of repeated harassment's can also be difficult to share. Remember the statistic. I talked about earlier. Said twenty percent of young women in one study had received seved repeated unwanted sexual messages that study also found that a large number of these women internalize a harassment keeping that harassment harassment to themselves affected. Not only their mood but even their appetite and sleep demeans it is really important to reach out and get support so what to do about it. It's important to get social support from people you can trust and people who will want to help you instead of judging you. If you don't don't feel comfortable sharing with family or friends you can also reach out to a mental health professional who will not only be non-judgmental but also be bound by confidentiality. Remember that you don't have to deal with this on your own. It's possible that the stress of the isolation will cause you even more grief than the stress of sharing your. You're embarrassing experience with someone who cares so to summarize. What have we learned? We know that the Internet allows perpetrators to be anonymous Thomas and removed which makes cyberbullying even more dangerous in some cases than traditional bullying. So you should protect yourself on the Internet and tried to disengage as soon as possible from threatening harassing and harassing behavior. We know that it's harder for bystanders to she step in and help so if you are a bystander make sure you step up and call it bad behavior. We also know that cyberbullying is hard to escape because because the Internet is every when everywhere so got to protect yourself again and also make sure to set aside protective time and mental space for yourself. So so don't go back again and again to check on your inbox when you could be doing something a little bit more empowering and masterful for yourself and lastly cyberbullying is really isolating so this makes it extra important to seek social support and you're not alone a lot of people experience cyberbullying and we can only stop it and prevent it and cope with it vest. If we get together and support each other through it now let me know. What else do you want to learn about cyber bullying or other psychological tips? You can find me on facebook or twitter. I'm at Cutie. T- Savvy Sake and if you want wants specific sleep related tips. I'm also at jade whoop. You can listen to the show on Apple spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And and don't forget to subscribe so you keep up with each episode next week. We're going to have a really interesting conversation with Elaine Birchall about hoarding eating disorder. Psychologist is audio. Engineered by Steve Ricky. An edited by Karen Hertzberg as always savvy psychologist is strictly for informational purposes and does not substitute for mental health. Care from a licensed professional. Thank you so much for joining the and I'll see you next week for a happier healthier with your mind.

harassment Melissa Anneli facebook twitter Cyber Bullying Research Center Tyler Clementi New Zealand George Washington Bridge Dr Jade Woo rutgers assault jade whoop caffeine Cyp Elaine Birchall Anna
Une tasse de Dieu ep#4 Renouvellement Spirituel

Une tasse de Dieu

06:37 min | 1 year ago

Une tasse de Dieu ep#4 Renouvellement Spirituel

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Sean Canoe Luke facebook Levy Duprey Meetable Shackleton Anton Donald Clementi Daniela Lucia Google Beijing Julie Verka Don Minister Berlaymont Infocomm Kudarat Kuhn Flam Davies Nfl Hong Hugh John
Une tasse de Dieu ep#4 Renouvellement Spirituel

Ablaze

06:37 min | 1 year ago

Une tasse de Dieu ep#4 Renouvellement Spirituel

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facebook Nouvelle Luke Shepherd Lucia Sang Sean Canoe Luke Donald Clementi Stan ECLECTIC Activists Plaza Aleppo Mike Twat Tada Don Minister Berlaymont Dennis Red Daniela Google Julie Verka Bam Beijing Kuhn NFL Flam Davies
119 | Fall of an Icon (Part 2)

Best Case Worst Case

38:14 min | 2 years ago

119 | Fall of an Icon (Part 2)

"You could see the sweat stain under his and that could have been because of the hot lights that could have been because he's TV. But I also think it's an indication of how nervous he wants. He was on literal video being abused and denied being victim. The act is a seasonal anthology series that tell startling stranger than fiction stories based on real events. The first season follows gypsy rose Blanchard a girl trying to escape the toxic relationship. She has with her overprotective mother Didi for neighbors. Looking in the Blanchard seemed to be the perfect mother daughter pair gypsy is confined to a wheelchair. But always cheerful gracious. She's everyone's idea of the perfect sick child Didi appears to be the perfect as well guiding in protecting gypsy always putting her first but behind closed doors Dee's insecurities in need for control often get the better of her leaving gypsy imprisoned in a web of deceit. Dreaming of an escape. She begins a secret online romance which quickly intensifies, and ultimately leads to a murder the murder of her mother starring Academy Award winner. Patricia Arquette, Joey king Golden Globe winner Chloe. Seventy and honest fear. Rob. The act is based on real events that explore what life might have been like inside that little pink house, and what powerful human emotions could have led a mother daughter to such a tragic end stream new episodes of the act every Wednesday only on Hulu hail. It's francey. I have some really exciting news. You can now listen to our back catalogue and new episodes of the show completely ad free on Stitcher premium in addition to our ad free episodes. You can also listen to tons of other add Frey wondering shows plus listed your premium. You'll get access to hundreds of hours of ridgeville content. Audio documentaries and exclusive bonus episodes from some of your other favorite podcasts. You can sign up now for a free month of Stitcher premium by going to Stitcher premium dot com slash wonder in using the promo code wondering. Then once you're signed up just download the Stitcher app for s or Android and start listening. That's Stitcher premium dot com slash. Wondering and promo code wonder. Hello and welcome. The best case worst case. This is your host, Jim Clementi. Former New York City prosecutor retired FBI profiler writer producer row CBS. Criminal minds with me today is high Jim and everybody it's state and federal prosecutor wealth former anyway Francey, hey, it's great to be back in the studio humor frenzy Russkies, either one. I don't know. I'm so excited to be back at the studio with you. I can't even thank strand. I think is one of the. As you should be. Yeah. For 'em. So we're going to continue our coverage of the case against Michael Jackson. And we know it's a controversial topic. But we are absolutely dedicated to informing people so they can make better choices about whether or not to believe the people that have come forward and told you in great detail about being sexually victimized by Michael Jackson groomed and sexually victimized. Well, we've talked already jam about Maureen, and I talked a little bit about indicators veracity. We went through that for our audience of Wade Robson Jimmy safe, Chuck you, and I talked last time about your own personal experience with this case that is specifically the case against Michael Jackson. That was brought in criminal courts here in California, and that ended in acquittal, and I wanted to talk to you a little bit more about Jimmy and Wade and what you saw on their interviews after the documentary. With oprah. And what you have in common. A little teaser here. What you have in common with them when it comes to Oprah. Sure will want to start out by saying that when you look at the behavior of Wade Robson and James safe Chuck on the post leaving Neverland interview that Oprah Winfrey did with them. There's something that's very dramatic that I think everybody probably saw maybe they didn't understand fully. But Wade Robson seemed much more composed and relaxed and open about what he was discussing. Whereas a really felt the Jayme safe Chuck seemed shellshocked he times look like during the headlights at times looked to me as though he was wanted to get up and run away. And I completely understand and relate to that. But I also want to point out in it's small thing, maybe some people, but as relaxed as Wade Robson was there was a very touching moment at the end when Oprah hugged each of them. And then they hugged each other. And I don't know if you noticed, but when Wade hugged James safe jock. You could see sweat stain under his arm, and that could have been because of the hot lights could have been because he's on TV. But I also think it's an indication of how nervous he was. It's a very difficult thing sitting there and having all that very intense scrutiny on you and your life, and how you've handled things and having to explain your behavior when your behavior doesn't seem very explainable. And I. Totally related to that as well. And took me ten years to come forward and tell the police what the FBI what happened to me when I was a kid and very hard for me to reconcile that. Because when you're in yourself during that time period, you think you're grown up. You think you're you know, every year, you are you feel like that is grown up. A man, you know, why didn't I do something? Why didn't I stop it? Why didn't I see it coming all these questions that you barrage yourself with and I could see James Wade sort of wrestling with those issues as well. And some things Oprah bought up in the interviews. She asked them about specific things that I thought it was very well done interview by Oprah. But I think that Oprah to had to be dealing with her own demons because certainly she had a very close relationship with Michael Jackson, and certainly Oprah was sexually victimized. She's talked about that many times she's done. Over two hundred shows I think about sexual victimization. So she's a pretty good expert herself in the field. But yet she was groom will. So let me ask it back up a little bit. Jim. I wanna ask you this question. It's going to be a little controversial in my experience as a prosecutor I have to say I prosecuted far more sexual abuse cases, where the victims were girls than boys statistics, tell us that children failed to disclose sexual abuse in massive numbers. So it's disclosed anywhere surveys Telus in ten percent to twenty five percent of cases where it happens. That's all we get from children. So for every one hundred times a child or everyone hundred children who are sexually abused. We actually get a report from anywhere from ten to twenty five of them. That's it. The other seventy five to ninety of those one hundred never tell us or don't tell for a really long time surveys. Tell us that boys who are. Victimized the numbers are even smaller. They come forward even less than girls do and I wanted to ask you about that. You're a man your survivor yourself. I think it's really part of our society. But I wanna get your opinion on it. I think part of the reason that Jimmy and Wade are being so attack. Now is not just Michael Jackson celebrity. It's the same reason people discount what Corey Feldman says, they're men. This is very unmask Yulin somehow people think or people say are in the back of their mind. They believe if a boy was abused. They would either fight right then or tell someone right then because boys are just tougher than girls. They're not gonna take it. So there's no way they're the truth about something that happened to them. So long ago, they would've told then can you talk a little bit about those dynamics. Will it's grooming. It's it's not right. People who grew people have the skills to groom understand that this is a way to control victims and their guardians or families and the communities around them people don't have the skills to groom children. They duck children. They assault children in get caught. And they get caught because all the alarms go off as soon as something like that happens. These people are much more insidious they control child's behavior by grooming them and everybody thinks they know grooming. Let's talk a little bit about what grooming really is. Sometimes it's showering kids with the tension affection and assets. Sometimes it's getting child to do a tiny little thing that they knows wrong. Saying bad words, looking at dirty pictures, cutting school driving a car when they don't have a license going into movies that are are rated looking at pornography. Talking about sex. Once in a Fender gets a child to do something like that something they know is wrong. The chances of that child running to their parents and saying daddy. Mommy daddy. I did this bad thing. And then this bad thing happened to me or minimized to almost nothing. Well, that's right because children understand that or at least the grooming makes the children believe that their initial conduct. Whatever it was is so bad that they cannot recover from the conic that happened after it. And then or so that's one aspect of grooming. Another aspect of grooming can be building a quote loving bonding, trusting relationship with the offender in other words, the offender causes the child to look up to them in love. The children have natural need for nurturing. Nurturing is holding and being close and cuddling. It's totally non sexual. But what fenders do is use that child's need for nurturing. In perverted into a sexual thing for the adult, the next level is when they do that child can sometimes experience pleasure from that. And that reinforces that arousal pattern and that pleasure pattern in the child's brain. So they feel it's my fault. I know Wade Robson and James safe. Chuck both mentioned like how do you reconcile that? This pleasure in thing that they know is wrong or weird or strange and that they're being told by Michael Jackson, if the world found out about that they would both spend the rest of their lives in jail. Well, it was right about one thing the world found out about it. Michael would have spent the rest of his life in jail. Instead, he basically spent the rest of his life running away from his crops, and I believe that's one of the reasons why he couldn't sleep at night. I believe that's one of the reasons. Why he got so heavily into drugs? I believe that he understood fully he was in fact, hurting children. I think that's part of the reason why he was self mutilating there is all that hatred. Clear hatred of who of how he looked and who he was because he knew inside he was hurting who was damaged. He was very handsome guy and trying to blame it on vitiligo is complete bullshit. I'm sorry complete bullshit that has nothing to do with the shape of your face. No. It has nothing to do with who you are as person and one of the things I always do by the way when I see images of people who actually have a Lago on on social media. I always try to like that image because one it's a ports that person says you're not a freak just because some of your skin is a different color doesn't mean that you're some kind of freak that people shouldn't. Look at and I want to support them Michael apparently had that disease. And the reason why I say that is because both governor viso and Jordi Chandler described. A patch of skin like that on the underside of Michael's erect penis, and they both described away that Michael approached them with that. And it was incredibly consistent between the tooth. And again, that's cross corroboration. But it's also corroborated by the fact that Michael claimed he had been Lago. So why would they see that part of his anatomy, if he wasn't engaged in exposing himself to them and grooming them and sexually victimizing that now, and that's classic crop ration- is when a child describes the the body of the offender in some way or the event in some way that is outside what they would have ordinarily. Been able to experience except for sexual relations. But what I want to ask you Francey is how the hell did the defense in Michael Jackson's case bring Wade Robson and MacAulay Culkin in as witnesses defense witnesses in criminal trial. How did that happen? Because just the fact that he didn't commit a crime against person. A doesn't mean that he didn't commit a crime against person be in. It's a mystery to me, Jim I remember because I was a prosecutor a young prosecutor at that time, and I was absolutely horrified. Because in Georgia where I started as a state prosecutor in Georgia. You can't do that. You can't bring in evidence that you abused that the allegations UB's five people, and we're bringing in these other tend to say, he didn't abuse them. Therefore, you couldn't have abuse five. It's not a lack on believable not allowed. It's unbelievable because that's like saying to a murderer bringing the entire live population of the planet. Right because you didn't kill. Kill them. So obviously didn't kill this person. It's just ridiculous. I remember wanting to ask this of his attorney Tom mezro on crime time about that. But really not wanting to call out way Robson at the time. Of course, because I did believe way was victim. I did believe that he was still sort of in the grooming. Trance of Michael Jackson. And I did believe he wanted to maintain his manhood by sticking up for Michael Jackson. But I couldn't believe that mezro was able to convince a judge to allow that kind of testimony to come in. It's to me, it's absurd. California. Cow horn is crazy in their other states in the country that do it. I I don't understand it shouldn't be allowed because it's so distracting and wrong, especially when they're celebrity. Well, of course, kinda just say. To that this whole idea of abused boys in whether there's a difference in wasn't girls. I'm not not sure about that. I don't know. But there's a very famous case, I'm not gonna mention the children's names now because they're all adults. It was a case out of England and a stepfather abused two stepsons and a stepdaughter of his four years from the time the children were five or six or seven all the way up until they were ten twelve thirteen cetera and filmed, it it was a very very famous and still is child pornography series. Because there were so many images that were trafficked in far flung places all over the planet. So when a case was made against this stepfather, two of the children one boy and one girl testified and talked about it the third denied being a victim his brother and sister said he was a victim. He denied being victim. He was on. Literal video being abused and denied being victim. And as far as I'm aware at least just a few years as of just a few years ago. He was still in denial as a grown man that the stepfather ever of givers, just face it. I mean and right. He's a victim. And we can't force him to admit that in knows what what defenses he's worked up in his brain. But clearly, that's what Wade Robson was doing. That's what James safe took was doing. And I believe a number of other of the boys that Mike Jackson slept in his bed with I think they're still doing it. But we'll hopefully one day will know the full truth. But it doesn't mean if he didn't sexually victimize one or more of the boys that slept with him. It doesn't mean that he didn't sexually victimize any. Of the boys that he slept with more that heat spent time with traveled with and groomed and had over playing games and watching videos, and so on and so forth. Hearing used to be hard multiple job sites. Stacks of resumes. A confusing review process, but today hiring can be easy. And you only have to go to one place to get it done. Ziprecruiter dot com slash best-case. Ziprecruiter sends your job to over one hundred of the web's leading job boards, but they don't stop there with their powerful matching technology. 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While you also say in the last when Maureen and I recorded our episode about this. I talked about Corey Feldman because of the time we were recording Feldman come out publicly against Wade. And Jimmy and said nasty things about them and accusing them of merely coming for for money and defending Michael Jackson and saying, well, he never abused me. And I was horrified, and I really took him to task in that podcast and about the between the time when we recorded it in the episode dropped Feldman put out some sort of a retraction and said that he thought better of it. And I think he might have apologized. I'm not sure exactly whatever it was the damage was done. He was one of the early sort of accusers are calling Wade and Jimmy liars. And I think it was damaging to them. And what I worry more about is it's damaging to children now children right now who are being. Victimize or just been victimized. See that kind of haven from other people who are accusing these guys being lying in their only out in it for the money, and they couldn't have been abused or they're they're to blame in some way. It's going to prevent them from coming forward. You're right. And I'm glad that Corey at least step back his statements, and I'm glad that Barbara Streisand. At least step back, her statements. I don't know of Diana Ross step time scene. But what's great though? Is that Wade Robson is now a hero, James safe? Chuck is now our hero that together. They're supporting each other. Yes. I mean Wade coming forward and telling his story telling what happened wasn't inspiration for James. He gave him the strength. It made him realize. Hey, I could do this too. I can actually tell what happened to me as well. And I don't have to basically cower in the darkness in. He had made. Decision. And he told Mike go, I will not testify for you. I will not be used by you again. Michael threatened him. According to James with perjury. Will the only way he could Birgit himself was the anti actually was sexually victimized and lied about. It Michael that's an admission that you know, you were sexually victimizing James safe. Chuck gimme a break. No, listen. Michael jackson. Shockingly is a terrible was a terrible terrible child abuser. There's just no two ways about it. And like you said in the last episode, Jim like you I grew up in a time. When Michael Jackson was the biggest celebrity in the world. In fact, when I was a high school cheerleader. We did, you know, like a halftime show to thriller, and we learned that full dance, and we performed it as we were frilled to so to speak with it everyone loved Michael Jackson. And so what we are learning today. Hey, what you've known for a long time in what I certainly suspected for a long time as I became a prosecutor understood these issues is something that everyone is trying to come to terms with. But for people to go rushing out and accused each other of lying simply because they don't want to believe that a great musician is also a child abuser will. I there catastrophically wrong. They're making a mistake, but they're hurting victim. And that's what you and I talked about in the cavenaugh hearing, but we offer roles Asian. The whole metoo. Yes movement. Everybody say what you have to believe victims await those same people are not believing these victims. However, what we correctly corrected that statement to be is you have to not disbelieve victims, particularly just because of who the victim is or because who the offender is. That's what you have an obligation to do is don't disbelieve victims interview get details. Find out what the story really is look for corroboration refutation and only then should you be making a determination. Right. The fact is everybody because Wade and James were so forthcoming everybody. Now has plenty of information. Graphic information about what happened those details. Help to corroborate those statements the crew. Corroborate each other and the way in which they are delivered and the emotion and the effective and the geographical information that's provided in the Gretchen of events and how they affected those boys who are now. Young men all of those details. Help us to form a better picture of what grooming is. And I'll tell you this. Don't be fooled that it only happened because Michael Jackson was an icon entertainer. This is happening right now in your communities in your schools in your sports teams in your clubs in your organization's possibly even in your family's in your homes, people who are sexually attracted to children. Find variants cities ways the worm their way into your life and your love and your trust. And they take advantage of that. They look you in the face, and they take advantage of that you as a person who is associated with kids parenting kids guarding kids, teaching kids coaching kids, you have a responsibility to one not take advantage of children sexually or otherwise. And to to protect the children in your care from it one of the ways to do. That is to make sure that you educate yourself, and that children are educated about the threat. I always say this. If you live on a busy street, do you protect your children from the dangers by not telling them that it is dangerous or do you walk them to the corner and tell them to look both ways discuss how cars can't stop in time. If they can't see you if they don't know you're coming, and you tell them to wait for the light to change and look both ways and you hold their hand. And you walk across the street with them until they can safely do it on their own. I'm telling you, I think France joins me in this you need to discuss sex and sexual victimization with your children from the time. They are born the earlier you start the easier. It is for you to get over the U mountain that. It takes when they're older to talk to them about sex. If you discuss it with them early, you are actually helping to insulate them. Protect them, the well Armagh child by Joel hysterics is a great book to teach parents how to arm their children with his information. We do not protect our kids by keeping them naive and innocent never sex and talking about sex is not bad for children unless it is done in an exploitive way. What you have to do is figure out a way to come to terms with it yourself. So you can then talk to them. Don't talk to them with all these hang-ups. Don't talk to them with fear in your voice, talk to them with love and support. Just like you would talking to them about learning about their ABC's are learning about nature or science or matter life lesson that is and we make it in especially in this country. Make it such a tab. Boo topic that all it does set up children to be victimized. I wanna stop that. I want to prevent that from happening in the best way to do. It is to start with a foundation soon as you start talking to your child. Whether it's in the womb or out talk to them about their bodies about natural things like sex and talk to them about being wary about people who wanna take advantage of them sexually now. Absolutely true. Army your challenge knowledge that kids their own I best defense, and you have to arm them or they can't defend themselves until IT's at the beginning. Jim that you have something in common. Well, several things in common, but something in common with Jimmy and Wade having appeared on Oprah. You have an Oprah connection. So let's talk about that. Well in two thousand and ten Oprah the show in which she invited two hundred men from across. Country who victimized as kids we were all in the audience when we she did a show. And then said, you know, what I'm gonna do another show. So she did two shows in a row, and maybe even third one. But she had us all standing there in the audience holding up pictures of what we were like when we were the age we victimized and I was on that show. And I remember Tyler Perry came to that show. And it was great to see somebody a man of his stature to come forward untalkative about what happened him, and it was great to see him supporting the other two hundred other men in the audience, and it was powerful disturbing hearing the stories of some of the guys that were there. But to be able to stand up on national and international TV and be able to say, I'm not alone. It was wonderful event. I applaud over for doing it, and she sort of revisited really quickly when she interviewed Wade, James. She showed a clip from it in will post pictures from that clip. But the fact is that it is a turning point in your life. When you can stand up and say, I'm no longer victim survivor and thrive, and what was really interesting about me being on that show was I had a massive heart attack one month to the day before that show was filmed. And although I was going to be much more of a part of that show as an expert on that kind of fell by the wayside when I had at this heart attack, but I provide the heart attack, and I was recovered enough that my doctor let me travel to Chicago to shoot that show and. And I might be able to find the picture of me talking to Oprah about that fact, and I told her, you know, I thanked or doing the show, but I also told her to miracle that I'm standing here talking to you. So for lotteries ins, I'm really indebted to Oprah for doing that show. But I was also really glad to see that it brought a connection between my personal life experiences might professional life in experiences and the life inexperience of a lot of people who who grew up knowing and loving in Meiring Michael Jackson, and I just wanna let you know, one of the most difficult things about this. I think Wade spoke about a little bit maybe James is separating out the good of people from the offending behavioral people, and I have had to do it in my own personal life because the guy who offended against me talk. Me. Good things. A period of my life that I didn't even want to think about for a number of years. I didn't want to go there. I didn't want anything that associated me with that time and that person or bad. I just got rid of it all and that was mistake. And it was when I was watching a one man show. I can't remember his name. Hopefully, I will. But I was watching one man show about a guy who was doing show about being victimized in in the show. He says to the guy I wonder what I would have been like if you were the honest, trustworthy, loving, man and mentor, but I deserved rather than the offender who manipulated abused me. And in that moment, I thought, wow, I can actually take back my childhood, and I could actually think about. Yeah. If that didn't happen. All these wonderful good things that started out good. But turned really bad in dark. I'm just gonna play him out like they start out. Good state. Good. And it really brought a smile to my face for the first time thinking about that time period in my life. And I would encourage other people who were victimized out there to do the same thing to excise out the bad parts and keep the good parts and grow with them and think about them and live with them. And I hope Wade and James are able to do that. And I hope Michael Jackson's other victims are able to do that. And I hope people who were victims, and are now survivors are able to do that too. Well, I just want to. Thank you, Jim. But you and Jimmy and Wade and Gavin and all the kids that I knew in my career and everyone who's had the courage to come forward as an adult because it's so important to make sure the public under. Or stands so that we can protect the next generation of children, and what you are doing in your career now and advocating continuous advocating for children is important in that effort. And I hope that our listeners will take that we often get people say, what can we do, you know, how can we support kids? How can we in our own life? Do it. Jim has had a great discussion with everyone today about what to do with your own children. But there's also supporting the police supporting child advocacy centers supporting raped treatment centers like the one here in LA supporting the crimes against children centers of Georgia. Supporting all of these centers in your state and your local communities that are helping children getting involved in getting educated by organizations like darkness, delight. Yes. And stop it now and save for athletes and male survivor dot org. Please look up their sites. Read the information there get involved don't. Eight make this part of your life, and you'll be helping to protect children, not only in your family and in your community, but around the world, well, thank you for listening, and there will be more on this topic. And unfortunately, this is a crime that will continue as I said, it's going on in communities right now rooted out talked to kids about it, make sure they know they have a safe place to come make sure that it's okay for your children and your students and kids in your charts to come to you and use the words because if they're not allowed to say sexual herds, how are they gonna tell you about what happened to them or what grooming is going on right now, if kids know what grooming is they can tell you about that, maybe never be victimized in the first place. Thank you for listening to next time signing off that's case. Viscous worst-case is an ex g production produced by Jim Clemente at empire studios, LA engineered edited by Mike thal music composed and performed by Simba soon. And hosted by one you can listen to best case worst case on your favorite listening. We are on Spotify Stitcher, apple podcasts and wherever you listen to podcasts. If you want to do something about child sexual abuse darkness delight can help did you know that more than ninety percent of the time children are sexually abused by someone. They know Jim this isn't about stranger danger. It's about learning the true risks darkness to lights training can help prevent recognize and react to child sexual abuse in your community. When you make the decision to get involved. Kids can be protected. It starts with you. Visit WWW dot D two L dot org to take the training in learn more. That's the the number two dot org.

Michael Jackson James Wade Wade Robson Jimmy Wade Robson Jim prosecutor Corey Feldman oprah Chuck Oprah FBI ridgeville Francey Maureen Stitcher California Academy Award Jim Clementi Blanchard Didi
169 | Joe Mantegna Faces A Familiar Serial Killer

Best Case Worst Case

35:36 min | 1 year ago

169 | Joe Mantegna Faces A Familiar Serial Killer

"How hard we work on the side of justice unfortunately in you can all come down to a jury and those losses where the jury came back outright. A little still hot me literally thanked me. I think it was important for us to try to retrieve this organization since consciously the best case worst case this is Jim Clementi retired. Fbi profiler former New York City prosecutor reducer on the amazing CVs. Show criminal minds with me today electronic leaders. Hi everybody it's Francey Hague's former state and federal prosecutor Jim. I am still at X-xi East in Atlanta after Elaine been an off our and our but I definitely did not WanNa miss being able to interview with you are Very Special Guest Giovanni Aka David Rossi from criminal minds. Will Joe Thank you for coming back? This is an amazing opportunity to talk to somebody who not only have. I had the pleasure of working with for the last thirteen years. But I've seen your work on TV and it's amazing. I mean the body of work that you have reduced over the last fifty years fifty years and it's so cool that you were the guy who cvs went to to fill that space and became David Rossi on the EU the first Italian American member of the Bau on criminal minds as I was the first Italian American member of the view in the FBI. My Role Model. In there you go. I'm wondering is there Pasta on table? Jim Did you schedule this interview just to would mean frenzy. The fact is that if you're actually an FBI agent and cool then you'd be in the room to every prosecutor cross. Country has just slept their head in disgust. Prosecutors Judge Prosecutor film over Donna by evidence it was also prosecute film. Suspect we share. Oh y'all confess playing prosecutors obviously far more difficult than playing an FBI agent refused to answer the rest incriminate me. He's taking out with France. Jero you know the driller Joe I do A. We're going to start on another case another episode okay from it'll mines. Do you have one of my will again as I said before you know talked about an arc in this one is somewhat of an art but there was a there was an about eleven year gap on allow New York. Wow okay well so I was going to ask so where was David Rossi in his career? When the first case happened will he was well first of all as people who wants to show no David career what the FBI prior to my entrance is a character on lines was. I was one of the guys. No-man's character mind Gideon an eye Rossy supposedly with the guys at Kinda got it start right worked in the basement common I know so so so the time that I come into the back to the BAU. This happened fairly recent shortly afterwards and other ones I just rejoined the FBI and come out of retirement. I'm still wearing my my my twenty five year. Fbi retirement. And I've decided I wanted to come back and it isn't long after that that I come back. That is one case kind of rears. Its head and what's so especially kind of disturbing about it has to do with you. Know Young. Two young girls had been kidnapped. And what had been. Murdered me your digestion. We're dealing with like obviously child. Crime like that violent crime. It's especially heavy now while France and I both know because that's what we focused our careers arm. Francey you the first congressional liaison from the DOJ on the prevention of child sexual victimization where you I was I the Congress did give me the title. I National Coordinator Todd Exploitation Prevention Interdiction. So that was my job. Jim To coordinate. The federal government's fight against China `exploitation. I was fighting child-sex garage when I was a prosecutor in New York and then when I initially joined the FBI as well and then became an expert in this field when I became a profiler and so those kinds of crimes were. Yeah the most difficult ones that we weren't but also the most motivating crimes that worked well and so as you can imagine that particular kind of a show would be even more disturbing than some normal kinds of things that you deal with. What made this one. Unique in that the narrow time was the show runner of that Internet pary. Nothing was like everything was just my either. My very first might be my first season on show. He came to me and he was familiar with the fact that in real life I have a daughter who at some acclaimed as an actress she'd been because unaccompanied minors Eliya get directed the go-to bridesmaids in la where she played one of these kids stranded in airports. Who was like about fifteen when she made them mustn't paget in that movies and it was in it next absolutely paget. Hadel harden as it turned out but an hour. Then but ed came to me and said look the end of the year for storyline dealing with these two girls. That were apprehended. One of them was killed but the one at St alive he wanted it to the storyline being that she was going to be the daughter of Hitman. So here you have a scenario where the guy who's in witness protection because he's a hit man has a daughter and that daughters cabinet in her best friend has been killed Lauren. And now you've got this kind of a strange dynamic going of like we've been trying to find this guy who was kidnapped his daughter because in essence. He's picked the wrong kid to kidnap. Does this turns out? This girl's father is advantageous. Human being right and he thought my daughter would be a good choice to play this character. What would be all right with me? I said look of course. She's she's she's good enough. I wasn't campaigning for at all. They know that the existed. But I said if you'd like to on caller in and see what she's right fourth go ahead was. It turned out. She did indeed come in play the part. She was about seventeen years older than time and being prejudice. Of course his father. I'm GonNa say Oh God. She was great but not really did a wonderful job and she did it. Yeah that's a new she went. She's really talented. What made it fairly. I mean so was unique enough to working with her on the show and doing Danila scenes with her which represented matter. We were working on the same show then would made this particularly interesting jump cutting out ten years later. New Show runner Erica. Messer comes to me and says. Hey we've got this idea for an episode. What happens to a girl who's daughter of the Hitman ten years later ONC- girls out? She grows up. And so that created the whole scenario and that led to two or three other episodes that also that focused specifically on my daughter's character but that was at Saint Edwards. What happened to her in fact that she gets involved with some other person in whose even you know even worse rash and and so for me. That's obviously very memorable because here you're I get the bookend. Mike basically my career criminal lines very early on when I show to sometime. Almost which is maybe a one season left to go to book ended working with my daughter. I as a base of young teenager and later as an adult woman her getting to play the evolution of that character. Just as I have David Rossi on the plenty of Lucia Mike character from where he started to thirteen seasons. So go back to that first episode in Case You have a serial killer whose daughter was abducted and obviously he's not happy about it and have not in that case fall out what happened well ultimately what happens is you could see that there. Is this the school kind of thing of we know that he has his own way wanting to deal with things right? Well we have our own waiver. He's a witness protection prison where is protected as it turns out he's able to get privy to some information that allows him to figure out where possibly his daughter is being held before we find out and it was a pretty remembered the time whether episode ended up particular episode. There were still some debate about because the network really didn't want us to end it the way we ultimately bureau. They wanted to the sugar coat. A little because ultimately happens is that guy from witness protection gets to the place where his his daughter Wu in real life was. My daughter is a -ducted. He confronts this young man who's basically young man is himself. He's only about eighteen eighteen supposedly. But he's already killed best friend So remember was matthew googlers character to read. He shows up. He's got no drop on them. The fathers there were two shotgun aimed at this kid. The kids pleading for his life. Samoyed I didn't you know. Look at my second and I shouldn't but here's my daughter playing and years this. Get the inside of whippy warrants. Like the daughter of a guy like that. She's basically telling your Father Daddy kill him. She killed each best friend. She was bringing for her life. She didn't care some Daddy. Can the network wanted us to kind of do what you know as often happens as he shows like okay? We gotta do the right thing. We're GONNA apprehended taking but we all thought for what we knew would be the real ending where the father looks at his daughter looking mattheus telling him what do you. What is his madness? Look as she's begging you to kill him. This is crazy. When is this madness going to stop and in one? Lash out of my daughter looking at her father king and then act who played. The father looked at Matthew and says to answers questions when this madness stop. He says tomorrow banged. Wow shoots and of course when we come rushing in two seconds later. It's almost like and to me. That was but that was where loved about it is. That's probably how go down. And also because than somebody they said in line to meet. Ross his character nothing was matthews characters. Woods can happen that a guy and I say it depends how valuable Assia San because when you think about it. What did he do murderer? Who had no? It's it's not a clean cut kind of things but here he was already killed. His girl could've conceivably killed daughter. Who's about to eat at his knife out so in essence it was justifiable homicide. Brian fact. Yeah but if you look at Santa Bogor veto right. I mean how many people was he involved killer. How many people but yet. He testified against a quote bigger fish writings. So nissen's in that episode into the episode all of a sudden jump cuts to see the. The father and daughter are now living a whole state in talking to the neighbors and my daughter has now assumed the name of her best friend. The one whose murder you know and I just thought you know that was very partial episode in just goes to show. Sometimes it's not all like doesn't fall exactly into exactly the way it's supposed to and sometimes you get bent and twisted. That's real life. That's relent. Israel. I'm curious how you felt as a father having your teenage daughter sort of portray someone who's obviously quite disturbed but also in a just seen being kidnapping victim and all that did you know it's again. It's it can't help but affect you. Someone your any gift that keeps yourself gladys's up to ten situation. You know because you start at the center for self. What would it be like if this was a real the real deal you know you can? This is not just. They're not gonNA say. Cut THAT THE TO SING in harmony. Really dealing with this but that some in you know that that's drama. That's that's the business that I'm in and we try to portray it as realistically as possible and I just thought you know it was. It was an effective job that the episode was really well done and well written and well acted by everybody in his. I can hope to do and my daughter. This is a profession. She's chosen so and she knows I mean we've talked about it enough when she understands a sigma. This is something you really want life. You gotta go get it. You don't do it because she has never. It's never been like one of these things like. Oh I WANNA do this. Because my dad does it. It's like it's the first of all it's too difficult in occupational but nobody comes inactive because they say oh yes. Then this isn't this isn't quick way to make Milkman. Make millions of dollars. There's no guarantees no promises here. It's very competitive difficult business and so you have to really have a love for WanNa do it and if you do go fortin feudal find something else. So let's fast forward eleven seasons so this case combat so it comes back in essence that you find out that there's there's this female character who is somewhat a serial killer in her own right and as it turns out she has tapped into another young woman of a like mind who turns out to be that character that the one daughter played and so the two of them we have on the B for at least two or three episodes on especially on Matthews character. So I thought that was very interesting because you basically was a perfect example of like Fata like Dada. We even brought. That actor back showed. That was a scene where they interviewed him and as it turns out he even says he's still a witness protection. Decreasing says lost contact with two years of model at the half. And when you find out that she kind of like she an and if you think about if you look back for step aside you see that those roots had already been planted when she looked at her father and with no not an inch of remorse nut an inch of sympathy looks able to say to him killing me. Killing you noticed. This young girl had been strongly influenced in her. You're Kinda path. Let's so so we've talked about this before. But the whole fact that or the whole issue of nature versus nurture. And as you know I like to say that it's not just nature nurture was another factor and so it's bio psycho social and if genetics loads the gun your personality in psychology aim and your experiences. Pull the trigger. So in her case she had the predisposition or at least from her father's genetics absolutely during the course of that incident at least when she was a kid. Her personality in psychology led her to embrace that dark side and it definitely shaded and filter the way. She experienced that abduction. And how did you come out of it? She came out of it. Saying it's absolutely eight to use violence. Exact so she participated in that formation. It's not just something that happens to somebody. But they have to make an affirmative decision along the way and in these episodes we kind of compress that into radio really dramatic incident but in fact in the real world what we see all the time is that people make these tiny little decisions in the privacy of their own mind and over time it just snowballs and they're going down that dark side they're embracing it. They're doing things to get away with things. They're hiding it through getting better at what they do. And before you know it. It's a second nature right exactly. Susanna was like the triple. Whammy in this particular instance. All those things were in place so you and your colleagues half to try to hunt her down right. And how is that for you when you're actually hunting y'all you know? I love true crime. One of the things I love about true crime. The most is that the further you dig into a story or a case the more layers you uncover. Well reaching each new level on best scenes feels like uncovering a new layer in story of the case. This time. It's one you get take part in. The best part is the longer you play. Best means the more exciting. It gets this puzzle. Game has gotten more and more challenging and more fun. The more I've played in my strategy changes every time. I play the game every level that I advance. I'm really invested in best beans because the design the events and the levels the slugs and the fiends. I love the mall. They're colorful. They're cute. They really keep me engaged. I've gotten half my family. Hooked on the game now to and I I'm competitive so we all compete together. Best fiends updates the game monthly with new levels in events so it never gets old. Svn streets the game like service for their players. You don't even need the Internet to play so it's great for travelling. You can play anywhere or let's say now when we're all stuck at home a little more often you can play at home. You can play when you need to maybe get away. Get a little space from your family. You can play the game yourself. Best fiends has thousands of levels already with new levels events and characters at every month. It's hours of fun right at your fingertips and you can even play off line with over a hundred million downloads. Tons of five star reviews. Best fiends is a must play download free on the apple APP store or Google play ads friends without the our best feeds. I really don't have a lot of trouble. Separating my real life to my pretend lash whether it's David Rossier whether they play Dean Martin. A rat pack when I played Joel. The Godfather when I play Fat Tony on the Simpsons. I mean I understand it what I do for living. This doesn't necessarily have any bearing them when I who I am as eating me and so it was not that difficult for me to divorce myself from that but yet having said that who still something to be said about you know when you're involved in the scene and you're looking in your the actor who's has is only a bomb in there again is about the hit a button to kill us all you realize. Oh that's also my dawn yet. Real Kim woman opponents yeah but have offered David Rossi like David. Rossi knows this girl's history. Does that what she's been through? And and the sort of or Mason of this serial killer that she's become right so how's he looking at this situation? Hopefully you were looking at is like you're grateful for the fact that you are playing this character. Who supposedly has all experience of this education? All this this is what he does for live where I know what I mean and so in the end like to think you know the professionalism will win out the good guys. There's reason you're good guys and that you may be put in the time the effort the work in you will triumph because of that doesn't always work out that way but you like to think that while I have to say and I'm sure Francey you agree that matter how hard we work on the side of justice unfortunately in the end it can all come down to jury and and they might not like a particular person who testify might night like particular piece of evidence and and the case could fall apart or and crazy things. I've been writing trial. Don't don't they francine they really do Jim and I. I'm very proud of the fact that I didn't lose very many trials prosecutor but there were one or two that were child abuse cases and those were the toughest the I could. I could give you every fact in every detail about those cases and those losses where the jury came back with an outright acquittal. Still haunt me literally haunt me because I worry about those children who were victimized because I one hundred percent believe that they were and the offenders that got off scot free. What did they go on to do? Those cases live with you jam. You're absolutely right and I think this series of episodes that you're talking about I think David Rossi probably has a similar reaction to that that here you are sitting. You're in a situation where this young girl is encouraging our father to kill this guy and they literally didn't have to kind of beyond the self defense Right situation but they did that. And here's David Rossi. Witnessing maybe the birth of zero killer right there. There's one other episode. I could recall that someone in the similar vein than I also was somewhat influential infected. I pushed for it and I pushed for for this particular thing to happen. And that was the episode where we're Gideon Refinement. Gideon was killed And the ultimate. I'm the one that confronts the guy who did it I remember this episode and I remember I I sat were on the Roy so all the writers and I really thought this I said look I says this episode the only way I really WanNa do it is that it has to be a situation where this guy's him and is kind of like okay. Is the gunfight okay rows right no? I've got the drop on them fine. He puts his gun down. He puts his hands up. And then he's GonNa say something to the effect of okay. You got me I surrounding big deal. I killed Gideon. You know I'm going to go to prison and will be a big shot in debt that I'll always have that and you have to understand. This guy's also killed varies women prior to this when I fought for and what we were able to do and I just thought it was very important. I said I want a situation where okay. I'M NOT GONNA KILL US. Clean COOL BLOOD NO NOT. GonNa do that. What I am going to do is I'm GonNa lay my gun. Dow is equal distance as where he's laid his countdown. I'M GONNA put my hands in the air and say you're right you're gonna go to prison and be bigshot killing an FBI agent like getting you'd be even bigger shot if you killed two FBI agents basically. Here's your shot. And so now here you got both of us. Stand near with her hands looking at each normal suddenly he realizes he's going to have to go for He has an amazing opportunity. Gratuity or and I'm I'm betting on me and so of course cuts away and you see Thomas Face and all of a sudden you hear bang. And we've Thomas shows up you see me standing there. He's laying there dead. I'M GONNA come. We look at each other and I think he knows and I know kind of maybe what happened. But it's one of those things so did think about that for well. Listen that was an Ara way to resent Joe. I'm an I'm a southern girl. And you're in the south way of something called the he needed killing defense The yeah exactly and and and it was funny as gotten at idea someone from an episode. A good friend of Tom SELLECK and I've gotten from an old episode of Magnum that he had done years prior which was again for the I magnin. Pi where was a similar thing where he confronted some guy? Who's just as horrible human being a guy who needed killing and she gets finds kind cornfield or something and the guy was l- says okay got Mississippi. Then you being out in all of a sudden it you just. The camera went to the pistol and gunshot happen and then the screen went blank. That was the end of the the the the zero. So you didn't know but in remember Tom telling me holiday caught so many letters in the network was getting this and editor caused such. This was like fifteen years prior. I thought to myself well. Hopefully where was been a little more educated since then? I don't care as an Oh march to that. We're going to do very similar and my feeling was listed as David Rossi's did causes me is such a thing. This guy has to leave the F. B. B. for the second time and so be it but I don't think so my feeling is eight in the scheme of things maybe it's not done by the book but he has yet an equal as I did. The Guy was was a bad guy and as you say in the cell he needed killing was again episode of criminal minds. Very well remember. How gripping and dramatic it was an. Can I just say off topic a little bit? I also remember that episode of Magnum. Pi Because I was a huge fan and then off off topic. We're GONNA have to have an offline discussion about this. Tom selleck connection. I think listeners Jim once again joy. So you couldn't be you looking for me. That was a very dramatic episode. And I think it was really true. You were so right Joe because it was really true to the Rossi character but really satisfying to the audience. Because he did need to die that guy. Yeah I mean you know why Senate guide the prison. Where he's you know he's he's he's done all these murders in plus he's going to be a hero because he killed an FBI agent not as knocking in not on my watch. Wow we'll joe. Were at the point. In the episode where we ask you this episode or series of episodes categorized in your mind as best case or worse case. Well I think I think it's taking a worst case scenario turning it into the best case scenario my mind you know explain well. I mean I just again. This is the thing of like to tell you you guys are long Schwartzman. Bad things happen to good people every day. Nevarez world you know and it when you can alleviate that when you can make amends for that when you can affect that we have laws and we have people who've who've devoted their lives to protecting those laws in in stopping those people is that whole thing of like when I first joined criminal minds and Ed Manera explained the reason they chose to do a round table instead of as you have it. The real long tenure. One 'cause you need one because you have more people more beef. But we will. He wanted around able to exemplify the knights of the round table that we were fighting. Dragons than than the modern day dragons. Those modern-day Dragons obviously being serial killers glow of that ILK and. We were the last of the nights to do that. Insult to me. That's so sometimes it's dirty job and sometimes doesn't it's not smooth and sometimes it doesn't know dot the i's and cross all the t's for the end of the day rather being decided the knights who cited dragon absolutely and I'll say in the real world we we don't have that opportunity. I don't think to be able to put down our gun and and get another shot at the guy basically so it's nice to be able to do that. Dramatically and make that point on TV in front of millions of people around the world. Yeah and I thought it was fair. I mean my my feeling was sometimes just like you were saying about the cases you've had to show molester. Sometimes it goes against two new. You Walk in a in a haunt you you know and again it is just do. The Cork in the law at the jury has found these while once in a while. You know you like to be able to say summarize due to the fairness kind of works out. Yeah so all right. So what what that scene reminded me of is the old westerns. And certainly there were times when the new marshal in town got challenged by. You know the quickest draw in town and literally they would have in a dual or shootout whatever and and may the best man win and clearly Rossi was the best Manhattan. Tv now. I mean we can. We can make the good guys win this there. You go absolutely well right so you WANNA ask any. I'm just I just wanted to. Well I do for him on another question. I do have one last question for you. Joe and that's really about the whole body of work of criminal minds you know you've talked about working with people like Jim but I wondered if you can talk a little bit to our listeners. About what it is like to work on a set where you do have access to to people like Jim you can go to the BA. You really feel like you have a bit of a handle on what they do. And that that honest will in this particular in this particular instance. We couldn't have done it without debt. I mean it really could. I mean there's a lot of TV shows at the fictional things like the visit. Nowadays is only source of these new note. Fictional Superhero stop stopped by Denny Union. Ventas situation but in this particular instance especially talking about a real branch of the of the unit of the the FBI. This really exists. Like I said I've been there. I've seen the rooms of talk to people met women who did the job. That Garcia does you know then the analysis and some of them too sentimental or we love the show. Because I didn't altered my clothing a little bit because of Penelope acas. He's a little little more flamboyant under closing kind. Allowed me to maybe get a little and I love debt and it made me realize just poorly but life imitating art imitating life. I think it was vitally important for us to try to portray this organization as is the. Yes we understand. It's a TV show on. It's IT'S FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES. Who was always aren't jobs trying to portray his honestly as possible and so having access to the real deal having tim there from day one the first day that will last day it could have been done without it or if you do try to do without debt. Then I think you're kidding yourself. Then then you you open yourself up to any sort of kind of Criticism of like well. That's not the way it is or you know. I don't know you know bottom line. Was it was invaluable to have that ability to tap into the expertise of the real people in the for all of us would just support and it wasn't just me. I mean Jim fits came in and and we based the characters on him and of course Emily Bachelor. She came in and we ace. Emily burn zone so a lot of my friends and colleagues. Were right there to help. And of course the FBI. I mean once they saw kind of show was once they saw how well you and the rest of the cast members portray us in the FBI in the EU. They were more than happy to help in any way they possibly could. And and of course you know everybody at the beach was so happy when you came to visit. Thomas came as well rate and we just had a blast when you guys were there and there is no way that anybody who who's ever worked in the EU will ever be able to affect as many people in the world as you and the other cast members have because no matter what even though. It's a dramatic series. Even though it's not real you guys betray a so well. You guys helped us do our job and you. You created these fans you know. Almost every country around the whole glowing three hundred and twenty five episodes in fifteen seasons. I mean I think that nothing else says elaborate there and I didn't travel showed notable publicity in Italy England Germany and France bought on a Carl. And the hear them people talk about to shore important was cinemas kind of Fan. Mail that I would get. It's heartening because it does make me feel like okay. I think we did nothing else. We did something right that it's not by accident them that something less fifteen seasons in rarified air and so among providence while some otter having worked with you and. I'm planning to keep going you. Jimmy you gotTa pill we will have to come up with something some way to have the criminal minds legacy go off any last words. Francey now. I'm definitely going to watch that legacy myself. Jim Awesome Awesome. Well thank you joe again as you it was so can you Francey It's so good to have you and until next time to our listeners. Thanks for listening to the best case worst off. Case is an ex g production produced by JIM CLEMENTE AT EMPIRE STUDIOS LA engineered and edited by Mike Donald Music posed performed by Simba Soumaa and hosted by one case. Worst case on your favorite listening. We are on spotify stitcher apple podcasts. And wherever you listen to podcasts. If you want to do something about Child Sexual Abuse Darkness. Delight can help. Did you know that more than ninety percent of the time? Children are sexually abused by someone. They know Jim. This isn't about stranger danger. It's about learning the true risks darkness delights. Training can help prevent recognize and react to child sexual abuse in your community. When you make the decision to get involved. Kids can be protected. It starts with you visit. Www DOT D. two l. Dot Org to take the training and learn more that's Di the number two L. Dot Org.

Fbi David Rossi Jim Joe I prosecutor matthew googlers WanNa Gideon France EU Tom SELLECK New York Thomas Face Jim Clementi Ed Manera DOJ murder Mike Donald Music David Francey Hague
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Best Case Worst Case

48:58 min | 2 years ago

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"Well, we don't necessarily suspect the parents right away. But we want to clear the runaway. He's actually building alibi. I mean, he he sounds like a reasonably intelligent offender. Hello. And welcome to best case worst case. This is Jim Clemente retired up profiler form in the city prosecutor and writer producer on CBS criminal minds. And with me today across the country is everybody it's Francey Hague's, former state and federal prosecutor as Jim said we are in distant locations. I am in the x g productions Atlanta office ident- Diam in the LA division. So it's great to talk to you Francey in happy new year. Happy new year to you too, Jim. And it seems to me that we have the entire country, maybe even the whole hemisphere covered a we. Yup. Pretty much do at least at least this continent. So I think you should be interviewing me today. What a chance to cross examine Jim Clemente. It is truly a. Did I say cross exam Francey? It's amazing. How you go right to cross examine what about direct examination what about a friendly witness? What's I think all our listeners will accept that? You can be a hostile witness at time, and I'd like to treat you that way. I don't know what you're talking about. But whatever have at it. All right. I'm ready. Okay. So I'm very excited that we're digging into the gym Clementi case falls a little bit nervous because your case files tend to be if possible even worse than mine. So do you have a case in mind to talk about today, do do and where were you in your storied career when this case came in? Well, I'd already been prosecutor in the prosecutor's office for total five years, and then I had been an FBI agent for fifteen years when this case came in. Well, so you were what we would call season for sure I was seasoned Wilson to in. I was at this point at least five years into being an FBI profiler. So you were stationed or whatever you call it your duty location. Your duty station was the VA you in Quantico Virginia. Right. Yes. It was. And we're unique division. We were in surg critical incident response crew, and it's a division the FBI. Unlike any other in that it covers the entire nation and the world so we respond to any critical incident across the nation around the world that we were called into. And we were co housed with the hostage. Rescue team. The hostage negotiators rapid deployment unit. Violent criminal apprehension program any entity in the FBI that needed to be called on for a critical incident and could be any major case child abduction or any of the things that you see the characters. On criminal minds running around after that's pretty much. What sir did that's pretty much? Any kind of major case it is. So I've been there for five years at this time, and I was on the crimes against children unit in the vehicle now says unit and that was a youth three and that would be world play out the rest of my career. So I have a question for you. Jim before you start on this case, I'm curious because I know how I feel about it. But I wonder how you felt about it. Did you have ever any ever, I guess but routinely? Did you feel sort of dread? When a case came in working crimes against children. It's always going to be something. Yeah. It is. I mean, you never actually, you know, relax about when a new case comes in. But you also didn't have any question about motivation in you knew right away that it was critical and many times life-threatening. So you just responded, you're just there you're doing it. Where were you in? This particular case came in was it a kind of a normal day was that weekend. It was actually a Monday February fourth two thousand two and it was a normal day is far as I can remember. I was definitely busy. I did a lot of consulting on cases. I did a lot of traveling on cases. And I did a lot of training across the country and around the world. So I was constantly doing stuff from point A point B was sometimes in three different cities that week and was really busy time. But at this point, I was actually in the office at the U Quantico Virginia, and it was sort of late morning early afternoon. I believe when I got a call. Can you set the scene force a little bit? Jim. I think probably everyone listens. This podcast is seen criminal minds. Kind of the EU bullpen how true to life is that do you have windows is it a basement where he working well, actually at one point when I was in the U, and I think this could have been during that time I had a window office, and it kind of looked out over beautiful parking lot. It was it was just great. But later on we kind of reshuffled some people in and I chose sort of an inter-office because of it was a larger size, and I like to keep all my case files out on my desk out on the shelves and so forth. And so just it. Afforded me the opportunity to to organize my office the way I like it. There is no bullpen in the VA. You the way that they have it on criminal minds. Everybody has their own office. And roundtable is actually not round it's actually horseshoe-shaped. And that's so we can get a lot. Lot more people around it then around table, and it's kind of the highest tech room in the us. So it does have the technology. It has smart boards, and smart TV's and a good phone system that we can link a whole bunch of people talking at once and built in speakers into the table, and and that kind of stuff so it does have some technology, but it's just not around table. Well, that's good to know so year in your office in the b you on Monday morning, and you get a call. What was I got a call from the coordinator in the San Diego division. I believe and I was told that they have report of a missing girl seven year old girl. And of course, that's always, you know, difficult thing. So the first thing I did was grab some colleagues and moved to our roundtable room and. And put him on speaker. And first thing I asked him for was a map of the area. And what we noticed was that this was sort of an upper middle class neighborhood when I say upper middle class for the area, that's pretty much fairly wealthy people for the rest of the country. It was a nice neighborhood. But one of the things that I noticed right from the start was that there's basically one way in in one way out from the main road and in order to get to this house with this girl was in bed that night and winter parents cook breakfast and called her down for breakfast. There was no answer. They went up and looked and she was not there. So she went missing from her own home in this quiet suburban neighborhood and a very low crime neighborhood. And so I can't it the turns that would be necessary. From the main road, something very basic, and you had to take nine to eleven turns to get to this house, whereas people at that point immediately started, you know, looking for sex offenders and looking for people, you know, in across the county and the and the area I said the person who did this lives in this neighborhood because the chances of somebody making all those turns to get to this house and randomly finding this girl who was vulnerable at that time of night. I thought were Astra nominally low. So I thought it someone who knows her master few questions, for example, you know, she went to school in the neighborhood when she played she didn't play out on the street in front of the house. They had a six foot wall behind their house. And that's where her and her brothers played in the backyard. The family were together mother and father were together. Although we'll find out. Some more information about them down the road. So remind me to tell you about that. But it just seemed like the all American upper middle class family, and she was extremely low risk victim. So that the. The first second. You're sure so you get a call about a seven year old who's missing whose parents reporter missing. Of course, what's flying through my mind is I'm sure the same thing that went through yours at the time was all the cases that you had to have been aware of at the time of parents killing their children they have to. I mean, they're almost always I immediate or maybe always the first media suspects because of access than because of living arrangements in just because frankly, as you are more aware than anyone else child abduction is quite rare act when it's especially stranger objection. So what made you jump to? Okay. Had to be someone in the neighborhood versus it was her parents. Well, we don't necessarily suspect the parents right away. But we want clear that right away. So we wanna look at their alibis in what's going on. And so we do look into that. But we also have to understand that as you know. Of the kids reducted and killed forty four percent or killed in the first hour. Seventy three percent in the first three hours ninety nine percent in the first twenty four hours. So we don't have time to just say, oh, we'll only look at one aspect, which is let's clear. The parents first we have to buy for Kate. The investigation will in the home and look outside the home at the exact same time. Otherwise this child's life is extremely at risk. And so you got a call late morning. You said so that means it was barely few hours into this investigation that it was right in the beginning of the investigation, and we have a child adoption rapid deployment team. So immediately. When child is reported missing dotted we we dispatched that team the local team goes there. So the coordinator for that team on the on the west coast, basically reached out to me right away. So they were onsite and called me. You know, I think basically when they were en route as soon as they got the. Basic information. So I was getting up to speed right away. And I wanted to get certain things done before I got on a plane flew out there. Okay. So you ask for a map and you noticed that this child's house was deep within this neighborhood. And it would be very difficult for this to be kind of a random drive-by opportunity. The way the say much more recent Dylan Shasta Growney case was right. And so what happened was we get the information that the father had woken up because their dog had kind of been winding little bit in the room and of so he went to let the dog out early in the morning like, you know, sometime between two AM and six AM. And when he went downstairs he noticed that the sliding glass door to family room was opened like six or nine inches. You know, he was like who the hell left. This open. Let the dog out the dog came back in and you went back to bed thanked himself. Oh, someone's been abducted, correct? They have an alarm system in their home. Apparently, it wasn't either that door was not part of the alarm system or the alarm system was not and remind me to get back to the alarm system later. Okay. But as one of the thing about this dog this was a designer dog they had the dogs larynx removed. So that he could not arc. So that he was going to offend the neighbors and so forth. So he couldn't walk our alert family of anything. Remember, we'll get back to the dog too. So we have the alarm right earn. Dog. So we wanna make sure we get back to all those topics when they reveal themselves to me. So obviously, we wanna put the parents on polygraphs, and we want to interview the other two children will the girl's name was Danielle and she had to slightly older brothers, and they were both in the home that night. And so they were able to corroborate what the parents said about what went on at least while they were awake. So Jan you said that you want one of the first things to be done with polygraph. The parents interview, the children, do you have any idea whether the children were going to be interviewed by forensic interviewers? Or did they just not think that was necessary because maybe they were little bit world. I don't think they were interviewed by forensic interviewers. I think they were interviewed on the scene by FBI and local police, I think that happened dynamically, right? Then in there because of the time it's not something you wanna wait till you can get. Something to child advocacy center or something like that. So they were interviewed. And basically, I got two of my colleagues to sort of step in and consult on the case while I got on a plane with another colleague, and we flew out there. So we wanted to get out there. We don't have the chief five or g six like they do on criminal minds. Wego we've liked -mercial. We literally sped up to I believe it was national airport and flew out within a couple of hours. So by the time we land the people on the ground at the end, you briefed us on developments that had happened since then until what what were the developments? Well, one of the things was that the parents had kind of unique relationship, and they were actually swingers it turns out and that year's swingers. For those probably millennials who might not know the germ will reschedule they had sort of an open relationship, and they would bring other people into that relationship. They would have other people comment they would have sex together with third or fourth person. And or one of or the other of them would have sex separately with another person. So there was a lot of you know, sort of sexual activity going on in that house, and that actually increased risk level a fair amount because obviously bringing in other people into the home, and they were also frequently smoking pot also bringing people into the home who liked the parents are sexually adventurous. I guess and that concerns me you can insured so kind of a a little bit of alarming situation. I believe both parents though agreed to take polygraph, and they. They they passed. They did not have any indications that they were deceptive about one Danielle being of -ducted and to being involved in any way when I think Jim that's one of the hardest things for for for me. In for a lot of people to understand. I think it's really hard to put yourselves in the shoes of someone whose child is kidnapped from their house, and they don't even wake up in. No, it you have some very famous cases that have happened Polly class, Elizabeth smart and others that have happened. Exactly. Like that. But it always to me seems almost fantastical that is fairly difficult to believe in an intruder can get in take a child and get out all unnoticed. You're absolutely right. So it's a high risk thing for an offender to do. So they have to be very sophisticated skill than experience to get that -ccomplish and not have anybody know they were in the house. Starting a healthy routine and sticking to it are two very different things inevitably. We all scam on that full night of sleep or skip a workout or maybe two or brush our teeth with tired all toothbrush. Yeah. We're not perfect. We can do better quip is a better electric toothbrush. That will help us for active clean general in your sensitive, gums, quip has sensitive sonic vibrations. This is because most people brushed too hard and some electric toothbrushes are just too abrasive. I love the multi use cover it works. 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If you use promo code best-case, that's promo code best case, so what we found out along the lines of this swinging activity was that the father was home that night with the two boys and Danielle and the mother went out to this bar called dad's bar and grill and at this place. She was hanging out with a bunch of friends and she bought some of the friends home with her and one woman apparently went upstairs and got into bed with dad, and they fooled around and the rest of them were downstairs mocha pod. And whatever and then late night early morning to 'em about they all left on mom went into bed on never having checked whether disowns or Danielle were safe and sound so. That again was very risky environment to be in. So obviously, our next set of leads were let's track down these people and find out, you know, who they are what their backgrounds are any of them sex offenders, you know, so on and so forth and do they have good alibis? So that's where the leads were going at that point threatening seems quite convenient with the end of whatever this sexual swinging is with the dog activity in the sliding glass door all seem sort of conveniently pointing in one direction. Yes. So I get on the ground. And the first thing I wanna do is go out, you know, stand in front of the house, by the way by this time. It was basically Jon Benet Ramsey seen. They were hundreds of media, trucks and reporters swarming this neighbor neighborhood. But I went out and stood in front of the house and looked at the situation. Backyard was gated with a six foot. Cinder block wall around the entire perimeter very secure. And I looked and I saw that neighbors on either side and three neighbors in the back had views into the backyard. And I said I need to look at all these families right here. Anybody who has view into that backyard who will know who could look at this kid and develop fantasies about her. And then wait for an opportunity when she's foldable and take advantage of that opportunity. So we started looking at all the neighbors and four out of the five neighbors were there and one neighbor was not at his home. And so obviously that we we started interviewing those neighbors, and I've put a big star next to the guy who is not home because that's a risk factor. I mean, somebody who gets involved in this may leave the area until things quiet down. And so we put a star on. This guy's name. Name was David and you live next door. And so Jim one of the things. Sorry. One of the things that really strikes me is the level of activity here. I mean, you're talking about not to and I don't just mean media who obviously have come because at seven year old girl is presumably been of -ducted, but you're talking about polygraphs and interviews of the parents in interviews of the children in interviews of the neighbors in canvassing the neighborhood in looking at maps and presumably checking traffic cameras, all sorts of things all the statistics on how many people are actively involved in an investigation like this, right, then lots I mean, you know, anywhere between fifty and a hundred law enforcement officers are volved in neighborhood community groups are involved too. There's a lot going on. We have our the behavioral mouse's unit developed the child abduction response plan. We worked very very diligently on putting together best, practices and. Advising law enforcement what to do in the first minutes of the first hour every hour after that. And the first day the first week the first month after an of duck Shen, so we were following that plan to the letter and following any leads came up along the guidelines. So we had interviewed for out of the five neighbors that could look into this backyard. And we were very impressed that everybody was you know, normal and did not object. Danielle this fifth person, though was gone. We talked to other neighbors who said that early that morning. He had pulled his big thirty five or forty foot RV in front of the house. You're not allowed to park in the neighborhood. Yes to park it remotely, and then bring it in to the neighborhood when he's going to use it and he had like four wheelers on trailers and things like that. He was that kind of guy who often went out to the desert in road around on four wheelers and things like that so kids. Yes, he had kids. It was. Was divorced, but he had a seventeen or eighteen year old son. And I think in nineteen year old daughter and all those toys jams suggest to me somebody is trying to attract kids, but I digress attract kids not seven year olds. But he has fem teen are just turning eighteen year old son at a nineteen year old daughter, and they live with their mom, but they visit often and they often go out are being with their dad and go out to the desert into the beach with him. And and that kind of stuff early they have a close relationship and everything's great that way. But it still bothers me that he just coincidentally on a Monday morning decides to drive off out to the desert. So one of the things that the neighbor said was what's weird is this guy's meticulous? He cuts his grass like every week at the same time. It's the same height. You know, everything is meticulously always puts things away. But this warning when he filled the water tank up in the RV. He left the hose out across the front yard. This is a very meticulous neighborhood f-. Anybody listening hasn't ever lived like in the Orange County San Diego area. They may not know how beautiful lawns are kept up. And how everything is landscaped and just wonderful. And this neighbor who was no exception. And this was an anomaly for him to have left the hose across the front yard leaning out to the RV. So talking to this guy in depth found out that he said that this guy bought out a box of provisions and loaded it into the RV and then took off. And I was like that's interesting. And what about what time was this the same day you arrive that you guys hit because this sounds like there's been an awful lot of information that you've already leaned is it still the same day for objection. This is all yeah. We're all real time here. Yes. It happened earlier that day and. So that happened earlier in the morning, and he was gone and unreachable at this point. Anyway, we tried to contact his family, and we did. And and we interviewed the kids, you know, the adult kids, and the ex wife, and that sort of seemed Copacetic, but it's still sort of raised some red flags in my mind. So what I did was planned for when this guy comes back to interview and set out, you know, AP on his RV to see if any state troopers or police officers could find him, you know, and tell them that we wanna talk to so that was going on. And we're doing, you know, we're continuing the investigation and one of the things that we then do is we sit down, and we interviewed the parents again separately that just in case our listeners haven't heard you talk about this before Jim talk about why it's important to interview people who could be suspects or one of them could be a suspect separately because. We don't want them to hear what the other party is saying and conform their testimony to the other party at all. We don't want them to collude together if they're covering up together. So we separate them. And then we test their stories against each other. And what we found was some really interesting information, and we're asking them at this point about Danielle, and, you know, her exposure to outside people, and so she the mother said well last week, I took Danielle around to sell girl scout cookies, we just went around the neighborhood. We went around this big block that we live on went to all the houses. We went this way. And we went all the way around that way. And you know, so we knocked on all the doors, and she sold cookies and went into a couple of homes, and you know, there was nothing really strains except that when we got to the house right next door to us the last house, it might have been the second blast outside the house. Right between them was making. And this guy. David answer the door invite us in blocked cookies. And while he was doing that. He said, hey, it was great seeing you dad's bar last week. Are you going to be out again this weekend? The mother said no, my husband is taking a boy skiing this weekend to the mountains. So I'll be home alone with Danielle. And then he said, well, why don't you give me your number because you know, I host adult parties year at my swimming pool. Just so, you know, and she said he looked at me, really creepy. So I wrote down my husband's name and wrote down his phone number in gave it to the guy and less interesting. Very interesting so fast forward a week from this encounter with this guy. And this is the night before mom is out at dad's bar now. She had been out the. A week before and David had been there. She had mom been there with a bunch of her friends, and they were dancing and stuff and David bought them all around drinks, and they took the drinks, and they were having fun, and Dave they were out dancing on dancefloor. David wanted to the mom, and she was like, nah, I'm not having this. So she just kind of walked away. And then that next day or the day after mom was out. So in cookies with Danielle and then a week later she she told him she wasn't going to be a dad bar. But she actually was there. And he bought them all rounds of drinks again. And this time mom is like, no, that's okay. We don't need drinks. We're good. Two rejections from to right? And he leaves the bar. So yeah, it was you know, definitely something of note. And we had to look at so mom, then tells us while this information, and we now are really looking to find this guy to talk to find out what's going on in his life and lo and behold, although media sees part and he pulls up to his front yard in his RV. Is it still the same day next day next day? Okay. Yeah. So he's been away from his house for what like twenty four hours yet. You know, something like that. Yeah. It might be even longer than and of course, Daniel has not turned up, and we all are wear those two ticks, it's it's kinda grim. So because there was so much media round. They mmediately swarmed on him. And what we were able to do though. Is immediately watch his the interview him, and we were able to watch that basically live said, the medium got the media got the him before you could. Yeah. Because we weren't necessarily waiting at the house or him to come back. But some cops were there, you know, we had left the cop with the family, and and they notified us. So we're on the way back, but we're able to watch the interview. And basically what happened was they wanted interview looney standing in front of his house maybe in front of his garage. And they're about to interview many says, wait, hold on a minute. He goes inside. It gets a baseball cap puts a puts it on and comes back out. And he says his look good. It's very weird. Right. Right. Exactly. And then you know, he's interviewed and he's all concerned about Danielle being missing. And so on so forth. So that was an interesting thing. So we immediately send two of the child election rapid deployment team members to interview him. And they bring police officers and evidence response teams people and we asked for consent search and he agreed. And he told us that he drove, you know, out to the desert. He drove down to the beach us all over the place. He drove about three hundred miles in that time by himself. He said, yes. And like he went out to the desert, and he got stuck in the sand. So he decided out of the health this went to the beach. Instead, that's what he said. So obviously, we want to go and dig up that desert area and any place along the way. But that's what he said. And we later find out that he stopped at a gas station and made a big deal. L A pain this kid five bucks to go in and buy a newspaper, which of course, would have the day right on it? And, you know, something else and get a receipt, and he bought gas there, you know. So that he would prove where he was which was about one hundred fifteen miles away. And then he drives out to desert and drives into the soft sand about a quarter of mile and get stuck and has to get call a tow truck to get him towed out of there again, it does sound something like that. Right. So we got consent to search house. We get consent searched RV when we got consent to search house. I told the RT people I said look that dog may not bark. But that dog is like a normal dog that dog will shed. And if that dog sheds Daniel loved this dog she's going to bring that dog hair to wherever she goes. So they walk in and they find his laundry room. There's all this betting piled up on the dryer. Having already been washed and dry. Ride and their stuff going in the washer and dryer right now. And I said collect that drive because if she was in that house and had contact with any of those clothes she probably bought dog hair from her dog. And so they collected that Dr vent and sure enough. They would find dog hairs from Daniels dog there. They also found two empty bottles of bleach and clean other cleaning fluids around that excuse, but I can't help thinking with my prosecutors is about dog hair in the cookies, and there could be an explanation for that dog's hair to be in his house because of the cookie visit wrote the cookie visit you're right, which was a five minute visit to the four year of the house. She never obviously never went on his bed in the master bedroom. So the volume of the hair, and the fact that clearly what had just been washed dried was the linens from. Master bedroom. It may not be perfect evidence France, but it's certainly is good circumstantial evidence, great circumstantial evidence. And what it really is is evidence points at him right now on the investigation. And so you can focus on him now. Right. So we do focus on him. And what we do is. We get a warrant to search the RV, and we ship it off to search it. And what we find is a receipt for a laundromat go to laundromat, and we recover the clothes. He dropped off. And he dropped off seats or blanket and a jacket on the jacket. They found what looked like blood and they would test. It new find that. It was Danielle's blood. Can't. Yeah. This this story does not seem like it's gonna have a happy ending does not have happy ending. And they would also find a handprint of Danielle on the wall next to the bed in the RV. So he's definitely the main suspect at this point. He's arrested. Unfortunately, the detectives who questioned him stepped way out of line, and no statements that he may could ever be used in a court of law because they were way out of line. And in fact, I don't even believe they ended up testifying when this case went to trial jam that terrible. But important object lesson no one day turn into two days turned into a week turned into two weeks. There are all these law enforcement officers and citizens groups out searching, including me, and my colleague, and we get a call. Call that I have to admit I think it was thirty miles away from the home that a body was found, and it was fairly decomposed. And it was later identified as Danielle and it was an anomaly because offenders don't normally go thirty miles to dispose of a body. But when you take into account the fact that one he had her in a transportation, modality, right? The are Wien and that he drove three hundred miles in that twenty four hour period than it makes sense because thirty miles he wanted thirty miles away. But then he went on to do a three hundred mile trip. He could distance himself from that. He was you know, it sort of similar to trucker serial killers who pick up a prostitute at one truck. Stop drive hundreds of miles and throw the body out in a different state. It's it was similar to that. Kind of dynamic offer Jim like he's actually building alibi. He he sounds like a reasonably intelligent offender in the sense that he's got cleaning supplies. He's dropping stuff at the laundry. Mat he's, you know, dropping her a long way wrote on you should mention that he is very intelligent and sophisticated. And in fact, he's a patent holder. Do you know what he has patents on cleaning? Suffice. I don't know how about the control system for home security systems. Oh my God. Really, really? And as you reminded me earlier, the parents had an alarm system, they did and father, you know, when he woke up because of the dog and found the door opened probably just figured, oh, you know, one of the one of our guests or one of the kids left the door open or something and didn't think of anything of it. But it could very well have been the David was able to. To disable the security system. Does he knew how they worked? So what happened from that point? Forward was body was autopsied they could not determine if she was sexually assaulted, but it was probable, and we got a search warrant for his computer. And what I had said in the search horn of David was that this guy was probably sexually diverse. In other words, he was sexually attracted to both adults and children, and that if that were the case his pornography collection would reflect that and typically sexually diverse people will have categorized pornography in and they will have multiple sexual attractions that are exhibited in this pornography. And sure enough that's exactly what we found on his computer, and one of the most chilling things that we found on his computer other than child pornography, which he would then later blame on his seventeen turning. Eighteen year old son. Yeah. He had a collection of anime Japanese anime cartoons. And one of them was this situation, which this creepy guy was hanging out in the bushes. This little school girl was walking by and he docks and rapes and kills this girl. That's the enemy had anime can be so violent, right. And so I, you know, immediately bought it to the attention of law enforcement there. And and they kinda played it off. It's not child pornography. Can't prosecute him for that. And I was like this is the motive this is fantasy material for exactly what happen, and I bought it right to the district attorney, and they in fact used it as proof of motive in the trial. He did go to trial. He maintained his innocence. Despite the fact that there was overwhelming evidence that he had of -ducted and murder Danielle. Well, I mean her rod was in his RV on the walls by the bed. Right. Well, the blood was on the floor on his jacket, and I think in the bathroom and her handprint was on the wall. Okay. That is what I consider to be overwhelming evidence. When you also Catt you EU also combine that with the dog hairs in his house, the patent on a system that could have disarmed the alarm the anime the child pornography his flight the morning that she was discovered of -ducted. I mean, all these things just pile up one after the other and scream he's guilty. That's right. Well, that's what the jury saw. And on August, second two thousand to us convicted of kidnapping possession of child pornography, and I agree murder. Ano- you, and I don't agree on this topic jam but what was the penalty? Please tell me. It was the death sentence will I guess you're going to be happy. It was I other. I'd be happy. If it was a different state, California. Hasn't executed any. Since like, nineteen seventy four something. So he sitting there eating and breathing and working out at the gym in watching cable swimming. He hasn't died in prison since then anyway, don't believe you. In fact, he's continuing to maintain his innocence. And of course, he has followers and people, you know, are fighting for his cause and so forth in saying he's innocent. And he was railroaded. There was exemplary work by hundreds of police officers in detective, but they were too that. Unfortunately, went way too far Meyer recollection is that they use the death penalty to threaten his life. And may not have even given maranda, you know, just all sorts of unprofessional conduct that ended up meaning that none of his statements could be used in the trial. And basically fortunately, there was overwhelming case and everything came together. And by the way, when they did the search of his house if you go up to the master bedroom. And you go into the bathroom, and you open the window. You'll see the screen covering that window is pushed out in exactly the shape of a man's head. So he was leaning into the screen so much so that he could see into the backyard where Danielle played that his face left impression in the screen in one of the neighbors that we interviewed said that guy is so creepy one day I was walking my dog and he walked up to me. And he said, oh, aren't you? The one that runs on our treadmill with your low puppy, and she was like what she just walked away because she does that at night in her own bedroom. How did he know that and to the neighbors that were actually character? Witnesses for him testified. Character to the neighbors. Yes, he did. They testified that he was a great guy and he babysat their children. Never did anything to them away we found and we showed them the videos. He took surp- tissues tissue out his window into their bathroom window, taking videos of them while they're in the bathroom still testified for him. Yes. And one of his nieces believe came forward later and said that when she was a small at he came in to a room molested her, of course early. She reported it and her parents did nothing about it. So this is a terribly heroin case, Jen, just bad upon worse upon worse. I hope those two detectives were fired. And I hope that people who testified as character. Witnesses on his behalf. I'm just gonna say it burn in. Hell because they should. That's just disgusting that they vote just ignorance it's complete and total ignorance, and it's also if they believe that he did this today in yell then they have to face the fact that he could have done something to their kids. And I think they wanted to turn a blind eye to that's disgusting. So Jim I have to ask you was this a best or worst case. It was definitely worse case. I mean, it's the worst possible scenario in child of Russian case in that is it ended in the death of the victim. But fortunately, her body was recovered and sufficient evidence was found to identify try and convict the offender so he'll never do that again to another child. So overall, you know, I mean, it's just it's just one of the cases that wants me because poor Danielle really didn't have a chance, and you know, she didn't get to live. For life and twos, sweet little girl and just got her life, rob from her and violently stolen from her. So it'll always bother me. Well, can I just want to pay tribute to you and all of your law enforcement colleagues who worked and are still working these kinds of cases today the emotional burden and baggage that law enforcement carries from these kinds of cases is tremendous. And I think it's something that I hope our listeners never have to experience for themselves in any way because it is very difficult to live with these images that you have to see on fenders computers, the images of the child in life and in death. And so I just wanna say thank you for all the work that you did. And especially to our law enforcement colleagues and friends who are still working these kinds of cases, we pay tribute to you as well. Good point. I know you can relate. So I'm thinking you as well for the work that you did and continue to do. Thanks for telling us about this gym. I hope there's lessons in it for our listeners, also, especially for our law enforcement listeners about policies procedures professional conduct and ethics. And how important they are. And how they can lead to disaster. And we never want that to happen. Nemann that wraps up. This episode of best case worst case. Thank you. For listening. Viscous worst-case is an ex g production produced by Jim Clemente at empire studios, LA engineered edited by Mike. Music composed and performed by Simba bar. And hosted by one you can listen to best case worst case on your favorite listening. We are on Spotify Stitcher, apple podcasts and wherever you listen to podcasts. Stories about child sexual abuse can make us feel powerless. But the good news is that there organsations work into preventive Beauce and keep kids safe doctors to light and they're stewards of children prevention training, his train more than one point four million adults to protect recognize and react responsibly to child sexual abuse. But there's more work to do and with their four million by twenty twenty goal. Darkness. To light is setting their sights on training four million adults around the country to keep kids safe by donating to darkness to light. You can help reach this goal that will make communities across the country safer places for kids. It starts with you. Visit WWW dot D two L dot org today to give that's WWW dot de the number two L dot org.

Danielle Jim Clemente RV David FBI Madison Reed prosecutor FBI LA coordinator EU Francey Hague Daniel Quantico Virginia Clementi
Hasidic King of Coke - 2

Locked Up Abroad

37:17 min | 11 months ago

Hasidic King of Coke - 2

"The. GO-TO. Drugs were not known in our community. Is. Game, is not mentioned in the Jewish religion that you are allowed to. You're not allowed to dealing drugs. That was going to be the. Jewish, publis. COPA. Life is full of crime. Bullet or something end up in. Billions of Dulles, but it's going to be a time even before. The game is over. You will die. All the women in my life. told me that changing their hair color can change their whole day week or even Mont.. Problem is might be hard to get to a salon right now or maybe expense is holding you back. But cat who works with Mir wondering just colored her hair at home for the very first time ever because that's how many good things she's heard about Madison reed catches watched a few videos online to see how it's done and right away she felt confident. Confident that she could do it herself. She loved that the kid came with color protecting shampoo and conditioner to us. After she colored hair and I saw the results, the color came out looking shiny and beautiful, and it really brings out the blue or is Madison. Reed products are also made with ingredients. You can feel good about like Argon Oil and Carrington. paraffins or Sodium Laurel Sulfate. You can get multidimensional colored delivered right to your door starting at just twenty two dollars at Madison. Dash Dot com use our promo code locked up, and you'll get ten percent off plus free shipping on your first color kit. That's Promo code locked up visit Madison Dash Re, Dot Com now to find your perfect shade. From, one. This is locked up abroad. I'm your host Jim Clementi. Acidic. King. Of Coke is the story of Samuel. Liebowitz but British Orthodox Jew. Coming from the cloistered life in his religious community, he had never experienced the temptations of the secular. World Yum wittingly gets lured into the dangerous underworld of drug smuggling. A lavish lifestyle is very appealing and he ultimately becomes a major drug kingpin in Brazil. He doesn't truly understand the consequences until a devastating event curves, but this isn't enough for him to walk away leading to a terrifying stint in the deadly Carandiru jet. I'm a cosmetic Orthodox Jew. At, way, I was brought up in London. It's very strict home. Very rarely that we should mix with the outside world. We brought up our own schools segregated. There was lots of times we got. Bullied by neighborhood kids. My. Parents is scientist who when I was seventeen I should get marriage. I said that I'm not interested in getting married yet. I was told I'm engaged some go. Got Married. Wasn't very happy. Removing. You. Needing separated. By the PUTT Eight find the getting divorced. Talk. decided. I'm moving away from England. Nine Hundred Ninety two hours twenty four years old and I lived in Antwerp. And to is a very nice, but it's very big Jewish community. I worked with my friend Grocer. Waking up early every morning going into the market to get the fruit vegetables shop. I was to start a new page in life. Monday some guy who I knew approached me. Is Name is, Husky? Listen, he was in the diamond trade. Out to the blue, the offensive holiday who doesn't want to go. To, okay. Do you want to go to Brazil? Sao? Paulo. Pretended all fully paid for. I was working very hard. Other. Maybe. So kind to me because we work is hard. Did I. ASK ANY QUESTIONS NOTE? Okay. I'll go. A fleet to Brazil some policy. Husky told me my friend will meet you airport. and. Obviously, my friend means another. The met this guy. Has. They. He took from an international overall we into some. Kind of tool guide. To like an evening to see places. People are so friendly. Brazil is an amazing country. The day before was going back home. Has Got Chemistry Goodbye to me. This bag and said to me all right. Just take back Haski. Seeing, this big. says. I would guess about the size of Kilo of sugar. Wrapped up in some Brown tapes. Just give it to him. Make sure you get. Present or something. Did I. ASK ANY QUESTIONS? No. Thank. Thank you. Thank you. I. Didn't think I have in my possession something, it could be classy. Luggage. Ivo into the airport. In Brussels came off the plane. Quote my friend, up. Just the I arrived. Hello Murkowski. It's me. He says to make sure nobody's funniest. What's going on with your right? Did you sleep at night or what you? Why should follow me and don't go home between? Does. Big, cinema complex. Competent Cinema. Why. He wants to meet me right now. And he says, I'll meet you in the. Car, Park. Knows how the don't ask any questions. Make sure nobody makes you makes you are you nuts. Nuts? He was waiting for me. Didn't come up to me, shake my hand whatever these he got to the package. I. Don't even know what the packages. These free thing to me. Just. Truth into his car. What's going on? Now Lady came over to my place and the opened up this package. And I see like. A flower. There was a special flour to make bread or something. Cakes other. Than I thought to myself. Why the heck did I have to travel sixteen hours to get you some flour. Just took out a bit mid like a kind of task. Between his fingers. I thought maybe that's the flower. He's testing if it's good flowers or not. You. Took out an envelope was Puckett and give it to me. They have something for you. Thank you. I look at an envelope was ten thousand dollars. You must be joking. That's Santa. Claus. Came early. I use. This mistake. He gives none on size. Finest. I'm Jewish after all, we have a Jewish. No. So we tried to smell things we trying to be nosy. Asked. Why do you send me all the way to deal to bring you flower? System is not flower. It's not flower. Cocaine. What is game. Drugs were not known in our community. A young man of twenty four years old had never seen drugs before. Only drug I saw what was secrets, he eats it. You Cook it when you do with it. No, you sniff it. It makes you feel good. Makes you feel like a? King. So. Why do you have to bring cocaine from Brooklyn? But is it each packet you bring back gets sold for? Thousand Francs. At sixty thousand francs. Fifty five to six, thousand dollars. What you will you pay it over there. I said, how much does it cost you out that he's a penance? For peanuts makes sixty thousand. Francs. Good. Business. I had no idea that she legal. I thought to myself. It must be some kind of a gold mine. Came back to me a few weeks later. And he asked me if I want to go to get. Said I. WANNA get two or three bags. I was just busy lead courier. Literally like the Postman. Who I should be a career if I can make more out of its. mind out again. But this time. On to make a deal with you. I said, how about to? Committee opportunity making someone as well and winning deflation. You on three bags. ABREU MIC four. One myself. So you sure about that. I didn't know if I get caught. I might end up in prison because he didn't tell me anything about it did not want me at all. So yes. This is no problem she already. I'd open the way. I thought to myself. I'm going to become a millionaire. Same thing again afterwards. and. The same gentleman that met me. Gives me the four bags. Same thing seemed routine again, the same way. I go back into time with four bags. He comes to my place. Takes three of these me one. So stories. Alert. In an hour or so I, send somebody. To show you to. Ringing the bell. I opened the door to Moroccan kid. Be System Husky Send Me. He comes in and takes trae. Such with a knife. And makes it into small tiny. She's. Standing at. Watching him doing it. Scale. And weighs two grams. Takes ten of me. Ten small packages. And goes. Attorney minutes tough, and our lady comes back and gives me six hundred francs. I. Think that was just over five hundred dollars. I said, well. And then he took a few more and. Every few hours it came back. It's nice you know. We're going up the stairs now. Within a week, you got everything sold for me. Sitting at my dining group and is sixty thousand Belgian francs and the table. Estimate knowing that illegal. Voting. Was the weekend that we went. Why not skew system and you know what you? Should cocaine cocaine. You may end up in prison. So actually ended up in prison. It's illegal. You're not allowed. I was never associated with crime in my life before. Shocked, it's illegal. You're not allowed. You know everything comes in all. Stop thinking of everything in life that moment. Didn't have much to lose. Anyway. I don't have a family of a wife and kids. Was I afraid to get not really. You're not as what? Now, I'm making money from it. What do I care was going to happen tomorrow? I did another couple of tips myself. We have brought trucks back for myself to sell. I continue the same wit. Luggage is normal. Even though I know I'm bringing something that is hundred illegal. My appearance as a religious Orthodox Jew helped me a lot to get through these Jews are all good and they're all good boys. She led the Times other people getting stopped the bags searched. Visible. I came into Brazil in one day and just literally a couple of days later, I'm leaving the country. was by the by the check in. Looking at her she's looking at me was the purpose of my trip. You panic when you know what you've got. You can't show anyone in language. Tell you something. So what I don't live here. I'm just for the wedding from a friend. I said okay. Thank you very much. I wasn't we call it a SCHLEP. Anymore. Was? Coming, up, to highest age. A music recorded. which was a good feeling. In my apartment we watched a movie about Kabila's Guber. Harmless Kobe was busy. The father is a drug cartels in Colombia. Z number, one drug trader. He was worth billions of dollars. He owned everything. That's what I want to be one. That's going to be me one day. decided to go for it. decided to don't want to live anymore. Peck my bag moved down to Brazil. was going? To be the Jewish. Published Kober When I moved physically over to Brazil got much more involved in the drug trade. Now, there was one Jewish guy. The Godfather. The owned of coke fields. He was in charge of drug. Trafficking out of Brazil. Have to meet him. Did. Drug. Pushes with. Jewish, community. The told me there's a few doors to go through to meet the main person. You need to gain kind of a trust. This Guy Y'all switch come with him. I. Said, why is that? To meet the. Godfather. No I have to start worrying. We went downtown to this club. He's a witty and I'll tell him that we hit in those you coming. The gun on my. Forty searched. See. Him wired or fat carry weapons. As it? Yeah. Maybe he's afraid I'm gonNA steal his business. All the time I was so afraid. We was sitting there like. Public. By himself. He's Morton. Kocic from like a religious boy. So you are some. A new, I am coming to Brazil. Is, set for me to build up trust I do test my soldiers so. I need you to do something for me. Going to dry my money. into. Come. Within. SOLITU- comprends about nine hours. Nine, ten, I was Dr. He took this bank fully loaded with the money. It went through my head. What would happen on the other end? Maybe officer gave him the money show. The thing with him? You couldn't say, no. You live. Today. Come back tomorrow and you have to go home. To, pick up something that's most precious to me. My Wife. You, taking my wife with you. If I got stopped by the police in the way. They've anything happens I'm going to his wife me. He's GonNa Commit. There's nothing I could do. Drove into the driveway. Beautiful. Huge. House. She's dead. She's looking at me. She's beautiful. Very, fancy, very rich closed jewelry. Like a typical lady that would go down to the horse racing here in England. She's like really tanned skin blonde hair. Brazilian. Straightened. Back. Enough we. Went. That's going to pay for the. Petrol. And when I came back, Takashi was sitting on the front. She's okay for now, I can sit in the front seat because nobody faith you know. His wife was next to me wanting was in my mind tonight. I've only ever. My she is she is beautifully, lady will very flirty. So it kind of. Like. A Nice Jewish girl, but you have a type. Well. You know it's A. Good Ib. Omar Good. Stop to overnight to tell. told you to separate rooms. Now. She kept him building my hopes up in a good looking that you know. My bloodstains boarding and when my blood starts boiling is very hard and they get very sweaty. Turner, she became much closer. I was afraid you don't mess with bottles wife. You? Try? Touch? And she goes back until you touch with then he got shot. The Godfather maybe sent to is just A. Try to test me out to try. The conduit. Everything went as it should money go deliberate and everything went as planned. When we got back to the house, it came out. GREETED US at hello. Then, he asked me how was your trip? Behave. This you're gonNA. Tell them that try to touch. took out the gun. was, anything going on between you, my wife. To his nothing going on. Our. Nervous. Feel guilty to you did nothing wrong. Why are you never? You don't find my wife attractive. So, freight. To the family. Like a stone went off my chest I've. POSS- My tests. What about the starting to come and work for me? It was straight open up front with him, I said. It for anyone I work for myself. E system in. And so we became partners in sending the drugs. Thoughts dealing with his people. Drugs. Were stopped to the boots every now and then. So we have to come up with an idea that it won't look suspicious. So introduced specialist in these things. I'm on your show, you the plate, the seven thing to be hang up on the walt. See what is this? This is pure cocaine. Just, letting mazing I was happy about. Cocaine has quite a bad smell. The varnish took away the smell of it. I would never suspect that this could be a drug. was. Immaculate. The, my showed it to the godfather that has a lot of experience and his that's it. You would have to be tipped off to display his cocaine if you would. Where different ways antidote? Food Cans wasn't in the cans. The head the. Sticker. We put paste. Even, just a tiny drop. If you make a million stick, a million cans got quite a nice amount. Stuff, came from Bolivia was delivered to a warehouse. The work was done. And then shipped us from the rows. Figures huge. Profit. To three to four million dollars. Big Money. mind. That's the thing about it. My life has changed. He's nice girls drugs in the rural, my apartment was outcome. Believe it? This is my. Old I'm dreaming. Is, there was so much money. Just. Feel great what I have. was. Very, happy. Kind, of remember how I felt when I was a kid being pushed around. Believable. Well, I've got to a stage where. Enough. To worry like in the past because it was respected ahead, money. So found good. But. You can't always stay on the top. We went to only people is dealing drugs. Monday we found that stuff got stolen from us. Good A new that I should be afraid. That, our contained got opened by another group. pulled. People going nuts. People started going out. I am not carrying a gun. I was so afraid we were in the war with them. Myself. You will die. And after that was very cautious. We kept a very low profile. We'd never mentioned the would drug all cocaine. It was old dumb. Codes. Word Flower. would. Use The word in Yiddish, which recorded mail. was very prepared attention. But is going to be a time you're. GonNa. Fall. In one day. A friend of mine came up to me was preparing a long trip by car. Begging me. To come and pick up. My. Life. From airport. To I'm awfully long trip. Sound please I really needed. No San, please a promise. You'll be back within an now. Image to persuade me. And he just said to me. Good. Bye. Thank his arm with by. I was about ten steps away from camp. It puts a key into the ignition. Oh, my God. This was a message from God. A son see enough. Made. Enough money is a bit Pekka. List a game. Know, sometimes you lose. The life is full of crime bullet or something end up in. Don't have to print down. They would federal police. into the rooms and such everything. You're now looking for weapons and for drugs. We have six months surveillance on you. All my good, the game is over. We, know you are a part of a group. We want old group. To, know what you talk knowing. Where I? SAW WE'RE GONNA. Make sure you get ninety. They told me, we got loads of conversations recorded from your phones. Okay, they've got now. I was charged with possession of. Cook. And three guns. The. Just sent me to four years. That's what I was. Lucky. This is class as he was prison in the world. Standing by the gate. Did, just press a button. And the system you go find yourself through. was much worse than expected. there. Was Group in prison. Satanic. Cults. Known in Brazilian prisons as being very bad evil people. Could ugly disgusting. Things. Cannibals basically. Just bow down woke. shotting fresh meat come here. Fresh meat come here. Fresh meat come here. Do I have to be afraid of these people because of Jewish. NFL TO TAP on my shoulder. CLICKER will. System Gringo. Oh. Follow me don't look left. Don't look, right. Follow me. There was no choice. Took me to his room? System this is going to be your bed for as long as you hear. What does he want from me now? When I came into putting up bags and it was like. Coming. Should, yeah, it was a fight. Be, amazed were killed. Every day. Here for. Murder. Forget about four years. I wouldn't even have four minutes. You're. In. Prison. You see anything happening to stay away from it. Right. I. Didn't want. I don't even want to think about it. I wasn't expecting what happened. Just sitting there in the God minimum business, people, plant football. You hardly see any gods of. The. Made Rule, the place. Argument around one of the prisoners. He was asking for cigarettes. Everyone. On the wing was afraid of him. He pulled on a shame. That was scared. Is Really, angry? And came towards me. Is. GonNa kill you. Inmate, he had no idea what I'm capable of doing. Being bullied as a kid. My father, put me into clauses of Aikido. Design you to defend myself. I. What did? Grabbed his two hands. Just around. So he looks penance. Shake was touching him just great there. Took moving probing. Open your arm to let us. He wouldn't do it. Williams ovary shanks in day, came out from his back. Is. Oh. My God just. A dish mobile. Pray every day. You shouldn't take. Why did you have to do this? Why? Not You. Hurts, there's nothing you can do. Off. Of. The please help me get to use. Sure. Federal Police. To some poll international airport. Took the cups off me. You're on your own hit the road. I'd been released. Wow account believed. Have made it through. That made me proud. And, that's what pushed me to do it again. Just. Continue the same. Drugs. Lows, Amani. Party. Goals fights. It's a mistake and again. To prison. There really got. Hit in the face heart. So when I was in prison in Israel. was. One prisoner a teenager use drugs annoying. I, never was close to a junkie. No one in the wing wanted him to come into their room. He was sleeping on the corridor. I want to. Help. I told them. I'm willing to take into my room. In one condition. This is a room that we don't use drugs. If you do. You just going to be back out on the corridor is going to become clean. I helped him. In Brazil when I was all the way up to I. Felt Great. Thousand. Times better. Than Israel. Seeing him stop using drugs. He got clean. I was so proud. To one day when I come back often. It was in the corner is is to tell over. It must have managed to get hold of some drugs. Wasn't strong enough. is on my own when he died from whatever days. One of the only times in my life, I shouldn't here. Is the moment I stopped and I thought to myself. Never ever. Will I be close with drug trafficking? We'd drug dealers. I will try to get people to stop using drugs. That's what I will do the rest of my life. And, my dream is not to manage to see some others not using drugs. To have stream of people behind me one-two-three for five and so on. Do not use drugs not because of me. That would make me feel really good. These flashy cars and everything being in the limelight S-. Being on a top. Who needs that life is so good without it. Thank you for listening to locked up abroad exclusively on luminary from wondering the network Dr Death Dirtyjohn, and business wars to listen to more great shows like locked up abroad, visit luminary dot audio, and wondering Dot Com. Locked up abroad was produced by RAW TV limited for National Geographic Channel's copyright two, thousand twelve, all rights reserved distributed under license from Fox networks, group, content distribution UK limited. Our audio adaptation is edited by Daniel Charisma. Our producer is Donna, himes are executive producers are Marshall, Louis and Hernan Lopez for wondering.

Brazil Cocaine cocaine Husky England Madison reed Madison Samuel Dr. He Dulles Mont Jim Clementi scientist Antwerp London Argon Oil Mir Talk. Times Carrington.
#1521 - Josh Dubin & Jason Flom

The Joe Rogan Experience

3:04:18 hr | 11 months ago

#1521 - Josh Dubin & Jason Flom

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Were also brought to you by cushy is a new sleek BA day attachment that clips onto your existing toilet and sprays your but completely clean with fresh water it's called cushy and it's the best thing that you can do for your but. Wiping your ass with toilet paper does not remove all the Shit I. Think you know this if you've got poop on any other part of your body would just wipe it off with dry toilet paper. Of course, not water cleans better than dry paper my friends to she sprays directly to your ass and removes the poop completely so that you aren't sitting on bacteria that. Leads the nasty things like hemorrhoids, east infections, new Ti's and Itchy assholes and skid marks. But days are common the rest of the world but days are great. But you know what's better day attachment that sits on your existing toilet. That's what pushy is and it saves you money on toilet paper. You still use a little toilet paper, but you just pat it dry with it. Won't clogged toilets and to she sprays your ass with fresh water it's not toilet water to she connects directly to the water supply behind your toilet to spray your dirty parts with clean fresh water. It's the same water that you brush your teeth with wet wipes or even worse than toilet paper they're terrible for the environment they cause anal fissures you. You don't want that and also tushes only seventy nine bucks. It's a sweet deal to Hello Toshi, dot com slash Rogan to get ten. Off Your order and free. Shipping. All right folks, this podcast is easily one of the most intense if not the most intense and one of the most important if not, the most important podcasts have ever done. I cried several times and I was choking back tears multiple occasions. My guests, Air Josh Dubin and Jason Flom from the innocence project and this podcast is all about wrongful convictions, wrongful incarcerations, people getting released and just mass incarceration as a whole. It was I opening. It was humbling. It's terrifying. and. It's very sad but but very important. Please welcome Josh Dubin and Jason Flom. The Joe Rogan experience. PODCAST. Jason Thank you thanks for being here. Try to keep the sucker fish from your face. Gentlemen is happening. How are you thanks for having us? Happy to be here my pleasure, my pleasure. Let's let's just start this off. Just tell everybody what you guys are here for and what you do. Well. We do a lot of things you do a lot where I do a shout out to Andre Ward for introducing L.. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. One of my one of my best friends and actually personal heroes but So Jason I, both worked at the innocence project. On the on the ambassador, the Innocence Ambassador, the innocence project in New York and. We're here to get the word out about wrongful convictions. We have a podcast. Jason has had a long successful podcasts called wrongful conviction with Jason Flom. I'm the host of a new spin off of that called wrongful conviction junk science, which examines all of these disciplines of forensic sciences that have been proven. To, be total bullshit. Total. Junk is the name would suggest let's get to that. Want to what those are but Jason can you just tell everybody what you're originally in the record business? Yeah. Thanks for bringing that up. I've been in music business since I was eighteen years old. So I signed acts over the years. Business because I'm old yeah. I still call it that to. Track game for awhile it sounds nest. aljic a little. We miss those dot vinyl discs a little the. They used to be able to clean your weed on and everything else on the on the album covers but yeah I've been in the music business eighteen I've signed acts over the years everybody from stone, temple pilots and skid row all the way Tori Amos and Katy Perry and kid rock and more recently Gr- event fleet and Lord and you know it's been an amazing run at various times chairman and CEO of Atlantic Records Virgin Records Capitol records, but my calling in life has been. Eliminating mandatory sentencing decriminalizing. Drugs. Basically. Getting people out of prison that don't belong there and reversing mass incarceration which I believe to be the worst failed social policy disaster since slavery and it's really just an extension of slavery. So I, really appreciate you having us here and I can't wait to tell you the story of how we first met but I love that you doing this before before we even get started. This makes me excited when when successful people go out of their way to do something like this where it's just good you're just trying to right wrongs and I couldn't agree with you more I mean the the war on drugs is one of the most disgusting. And confusing aspects of our enlightened culture it's just it's infuriating that we have a gigantic percentage of people that are in prison for non violent drug offence of offenses, and then a lot of them are only in prison. There's that and Joe. Do you know how many people are still annually locked up for possession of marijuana in this country? How many? Almost seven hundred thousand last year like that's that's insane for possession of pot is legal people are making tons of money on it. I mean I don't have to tell you. Yeah you don't tell me a yeah, it's it's outrageous. It's it doesn't make any sense and it's the slowest battleship to turn. In terms of the way, our culture deals with it and handles it. We all we all know that it doesn't kill anybody. We all know that look I'm gonNA fucking. Bottle of whisky right here. This is an illegal can I could drink this guy like this in my hand if I drank that I'd be dead right or close to it. Yeah. You know what's crazy is that when you said thank you and we like successful people do this when you said that I almost felt like. I. Under the right with articulated I never feel like I'm doing enough because there's so much bad shit happening to people. And you know I remember reading this book called inside rikers. Forget the author's name Jennifer. Win. But she did this study of of the population. Of. Incarcerated at rikers island and how such a large percentage of them were in there for petty drug crimes the recidivism was all about people that will had drug and alcohol problems and makes up over ninety percent of the population rikers island, and she had a revolutionary idea right she said, what have we start a program in give them vocational training and put them in jobs and the recidivism rate in her program called the fresh start drop to almost zero point three percent. And it just shows you that the you know the first episode of my my podcast. There was a great quote and I'm a Sucker for quotes from the guy that I interviewed. He's attorney at the innocence project named Chris Fabric. Connie said that the justice system is inefficient eating and killing machine for poor people of Color. And rikers island is the best example of that. I mean right that. Down your spine to hear put that way. But that that's exactly what it is succinct. And my calling Jason's calling sort of collided we both work at the innocence project and we have sort of I. Don't know we've merged embryos and we have been we've been to be Modern Day Robin Hood. So thank you so much for my pleasure have. Come one of my favorite kind of podcast a podcast where I think we could actually do some good and we get the word out about the stuff justin, how how did you get started doing this? Oh, thanks for asking I. It's it's kind of crazy serendipitous occurrence that happened in the early nineties I was on my way to play tennis is played tennis and I wanted a newspaper read in in the taxi ride and usually I would buy the times but it was sold out happen to pick up the post and there was a story Cuomo bid sorry Ferraro bid for cocaine kid, right. So this story of course I read I'm fascinated by drugs and stuff. and. The story was about a kid named Stephen Lennon who had been. Sentenced to fifteen years in life for a non violent I defense cocaine possession charge in New York state, and just in case people think might be that may be misstating that that was a nonviolent first defense cocaine possession charge in New York state to life fifteen to life right so what year is this? This was ninety two or three, and he was sentenced in the eighties. So he had been for eight years already and the reason it was in the newspaper was because his mother Shirley Lenin was her name had been trying to get clemency from Governor Mario Cuomo Andrew Cuomo was father, of course. And for New Yorkers I remember that and she had gotten letters from the sentencing judge from the warden and even Geraldine Ferraro had written a letter on behalf of this kid who had A. Good. Record in prison everything else and it has been turned down. So that's why I made the newspaper and I've read this my whole sense of fairness and equity and everything just got thrown completely out. Of wackos like I don't understand. Like I kept reading and going this doesn't make any sense nonviolent first defense like could be anybody right? Wrong place wrong time kind of thing. And I decided I wanted to do something about it so. I only knew one criminal defense lawyer back in those days, and there's a guy named Bob Kalina. Pilots and skid row who both were artists that I had signed and so I had him on speedup because you know they were getting arrested a lot in those days and like weekly. So Bob agreed to take the case pro bono and long story short even though he said it was hopeless six months later we ended up in a courtroom in Malone New York. And I sat there holding Mrs Lennon's hand the woman I originally spoke to Shirley Lennon who was in the story her husband Stan was on the other side of her and they brought the kid in shackles like he was Manson or something right leg irons I was like this is all new to me. I'm just like what the hell. and. A skinny guy with glasses whatever and the judge looked like Ted forsythe I thought we're we're screwed right there's no way guys gonNA. He's old guy with white hair and your bed arguments went back and forth I knew nothing about what was going on and finally the judge says, Blah Blah Blah whatever sending goes the motion is granted. and. He bangs a gavel down and Bob running a Bob. What's happened? He goes we won. We won the Fuck Outta. Here we won. He's like we won I was like Holy Shit that's incredible and it was the best feeling I've ever had and they sent the kid home he'd served nine years. But he had six to go before his. Parole is eligible parole. And and that's I was hooked. You know. So I did a little research just. To bring it to a close but found about organization called Families Against Mandatory minimums, F am Dot, Org which had just started and I joined their board, and then soon after that found out about the work of the innocence project and I, I marched in just offered my services for whatever they needed and. and that's how it started I started in a similar I got hooked a similar thing. I mean. I didn't want to cut you off. No no no. So I'm trying to remember the year but it was. So it was about eighteen years ago my my I got a phone call. And I was only twenty, seven, twenty, eight I'm only forty five only it makes me feel good but I got a phone call and is like, Hey, josh is buried shack I need your help on something you give me a call back now. It was my brother. Pranking me because when I was in college, we used to watch the OJ Simpson trial and we used to think he was fucking great. He was hysterical. He was like this dynamo like this this Tornado of action that you know just like everybody was watching number trying remember Barry Sheck. He's he's saying he's the the little Jewish guy that said, how about that Mr Funk at the OJ trial was like the big moment, the OJ trial where he was undermining all of the DNA. And he found the innocence project. That guy yes. He Peter Newfield, founded they found it together. Yeah. Almost got myself into trouble. So that's Berry Shuck. So I didn't return the call. because. I thought it was my brother fucking with me. So I then got a call from a real famous civil rights learn Jerry left court. Who said he said what the Fuck is wrong with you I refer to bury shocking. You don't return this phone call. So I said, Oh my God so I called him and at the time I was you know a a alleged Expert on jury selection. So I was getting passed around this circle of criminal defense lawyers and I had to lie about my age a lot because I was twenty, seven, twenty eight, and I was you know regarded as an expert jury selection and people would see me and be like the fucking to take advice from this young kid. So I, went and met with Barry Sheck. Then, he had this case where this guy was Like literally brutalized He is in his Christopher Ocho. In. Austin Texas and he gets implicated in this murder at a pizza hut and he's accused of raping and his friend is accused of raping and murdering this employee at a Pizza Hut. He had nothing to do with it. His friend had nothing to do with it, and he was a vulnerable kid and they took him in an interrogation room and they beat a confession out of him. And I was so horrified. I was so perplexing this could happen in our country and what happened to him was they threw things at him. They threatened him with prison rape. They did everything that you hear about happening in an interrogation room to him until he finally just said what a lot of people say which is okay. I'll tell you what you wanna hear just to get out of the room. And he spent you know thirteen plus years in prison for a rape and murder. He didn't commit. He implicated his friend his life was ruined and I said, you know what? I can't do anything else with my life if I don't committed to this and that was it I was hooked. Wow. Yeah. I. Mean I hate injustice in any form it just have a visceral reaction to it in a hate it when it's in the form of bullying, even more you know as a kid and my brother was a victim of a terrible bullying. I think we all have been at some stage but he was really. Really affected me a lot and maybe that inform me I. Think I learned a lot from my dad to my dad always taught me. You know about doing the right thing and I tried to do that in my life you know But this is my way of giving back and it's extremely rewarding I. think anyone that's in this work with us would say the same thing that it's the feeling that you get when you're able to have. That impact on someone who's in a position through no fault of their own. That is the most dire circumstance. Anyone can find themselves in like someone Josh's clients clients sentenced to death Julius Jones. is working on. Now of course, James Daily in Florida innocent on death row. It's like those words should never be in the same sentence together. Let's let's talk about how you know they're innocent like these. These individual cases you're talking about here how how you shore? Like how do you know? Well, so we can pick on. One on my podcast wrongful conviction, we've covered a number of death penalty cases. and. You know this one Julius Jones for instance and Josh can speak about James Daly who we also just did a podcast on recently Josh and I did it together. which I thought was really powerful. In again, he'll speak about that but Julius Jones. In this case, the actual killer has confessed to numerous people the to numerous people like in law in prison he the people printed hooper who are strangers who came forward admitted it. Okay. who talked about it did description didn't match Julius. I'm sorry to cut you off but the the guy who was in prison who confessed to see in prison for life. Out Out. Yeah. He he did fifteen years. Julius has been on death row for twenty one and he's facing execution unless we're able to Okay. So he confessed to people. So you have an account that he confessed to other inmates. Other inmates have said that you can fast we have multiple accounts and we have Julius had. He also was a student at Oklahoma. University he had. He, had his whole life in front of him. He was a phenomenal athlete. and. This was a kid who he had befriended in high school because the basketball coach asked him to because it was a troubled kid his friend and this kid ended up, you know release says when you're a kid, you don't you know the company, You keep your not so careful and he hung around with him to stay Julie's is house sometimes. And ultimately, we know exactly what happened. There was a carjacking this this other young man went and carjacked a local prominent members of the Community White Guy. I think he was church Deacon as well as a businessman. And those cases get a lot of attention Oklahoma white victim. Killed in a car jacking black perpetrator. You know shit goes crazy and he implicated Julius to get the attention off of him. He actually hit the gone enjoys his house and then brought the cops who went in it was hidden in the attic and the cops went and came out with a gun like thirty, forty, five seconds later. So they just magically had like radar to figure out where it was. No Kid told them where it was because he put it there and it gets worse from there. this particular case Joe is an all white jury. Julius had. Who basically mounted no defense on his behalf in a capital murder case, and the only was an all white jury but one of the jurors and this is probably going to blow people's minds but. One of the jurors sent a note to the judge during jury deliberations and said that the other juror had used the N. Word and said, why don't we just take this? I won't say the word out behind the courthouse, shoot them and Barium back there and quit wasting our time with this stupid trial but whatever I'm paraphrasing but he used those words. So you're juror reported it to the judge and the judge allowed to journey to continue to stay on I mean it gets worse from there. So the whole concept of a fair trial in this country unfortunately. Is Kind of myth but I have a different answer to the question though because over the question was, how do you know they're innocent? And in this case, it seems like you have a lot of evidence. Yeah. A lot of C. which it's interesting. We have a different perspective slightly different perspective because I'm an attorney that represents these guys and he's a justice advocate. And but he does get to know the facts of the case. But for me, you know I have three young kids and a lot of the crimes or rapes and murders that these guys are accused of, which is why they get long prison sentences at least the cases that ideal move for the innocence project and that I take on pro bono and I'll give you two examples because I take it. You know a lot of criminal defense lawyers say well, you're not supposed to ever ask the question is the person innocent to me it does matter And I I had to cases where I demanded of myself and of the client that I really was convinced they were innocent and what blows my mind is that science. Is the truth to me good signs DNA is the truth. So here we had a case and this was one where I said well, I want to be convinced that he's innocent. So it's the case of this Guy Clemente Gary. and. If I tell you this story, you'll say to you gotta be making this shit up can't be true because the story from start to finish is is just mind-bending. He's a Honduran, immigrant? He is escaping Ms. Thirteen Honduras. And he wins like what it was like the Honduran. Version of the voice. Of America American idol. During idol yet right. Honduran idol when he's young when he's in grade school. So the gang leaves him alone because he's kind of a novelty and he's nicknamed, shorty. Because he's only four foot eleven as a grown person. He's in his early twenties and the violence is getting so bad. He's a I gotta get the fuck out of here. They Kill Front France they they kill his best friend and dump them in the street in front of him. So he flees to America and he does the whole circuitous route through Mexico or he gets trust to get a Mexican accent. He finds a coyote and he swims across the Rio Grande almost drowns. And then he's taken. I mean that whole story, I could spend a half hour on. He's put an escape hatch of a car and driven around the country till he finally Land Sanford Florida right. And Sanford Florida is where the Trayvon Martin trial happened and I ended up in front of the same judge that presided originally over the Trayvon Martin's trial. So. Is accused he gets the Sanford Florida on a Saturday he begins working at a golf course on a Monday climbing trees and cutting down branches. One of the golf member says I like this kids work ethic you WanNa come work at my restaurant he goes and begins working at the restaurant he lives in a trailer. In the back of a trailer no shit on Vagabond Way. And he's got neighbors who are three generations of poor white trash. It's a grandmother, a mother and a daughter, and he's like a novelty. They call them little Mexico he's not even from Mexico. He can't speak English and he used to go and do coke with daughter. Smoke we drink and it was a outdoor dorm. You know they would go to his. Trailer go to hers was like their doors were always unlocked. He's out one day partying with his friends. He does coke. He comes home and it's like five in the morning. And he wants to beer because he wants to try to come down. So he waits till the sun comes up and he goes to knock on their door and he sees a bloody shoulder blocking the door and goes to push it open and the mother establish one hundred twenty nine. Times. And he bends down. He, he was no stranger to seeing violence. He bends down to check her. and the dog starts barking here's noise and he picks up he sees a butcher knife bloody butcher knife sitting on a on a box and he picks it up and he screams and Spanish is anyone here. He then walks into the other room and he sees the grandmother. Slumped over in a wheelchair. And he freaks out, he goes he's about to call the police and he says, wait a second I'm a legal. They'll never believe me and can you imagine this shit on a cocaine bender? So he leaves the trailer he runs back to his throws the knife in the grass takes his bloody clothes off his closer bloody because he picked up the mother and to check her pulse. TAKES OFFICE CLOTHES, throws them in a garbage bag puts him on top of his trailer. The boyfriend and the daughter slept out that night, right. So the mother and the grandmother dead, the daughter slept out that night. He and bear with me because this will this is like worth waiting for. He. The police show up a couple of hours later because the boyfriend is sent by the daughter daughter says I have a weird feeling about my mother and grandmother can you go check on them and get my work clothes because she worked at subway Sandwich Shop So the boyfriend of the daughter discovers the dead bodies calls nine one one. The police come they come next door to Clemente's and say, did you hear anything last night? You know anything about this? He says, no, he's freaked out. He then goes to a friend's house and tells his friend. What happened he said I'm just going to go back and tell the COPS would happen. This is America right. And the friend says, you don't know America Ud to get the fuck. Outta town. He Says No, I'm going back. I'm gonNA tell them he goes back walks over there and says, tells them exactly what happened They put him in handcuffs. And they sit him down and they said, listen we know how you Latin guys are. You wanted sex from them right He says, are you out of your fucking mind? No I had nothing to do with this. PS long story short he gets tried convicted and put on death row in Florida. The. Crime scene analysts sat on their hands and knees for days in the stinking Florida heat and scraping blood swabs in the trailer. Okay. Hundred and fifty one blood swabs and what they're swabbing four is not the victim's blood. They know it's victims blood. This woman has been butchered one, hundred, twenty, nine times the crime scene analysts in his case testified that we were swabbing for evidence of who the perpetrator was because in a knife fight the perpetrator often get nick than cut especially when you're stabbing someone that many times. So. When the innocence project case they said, well, what were the results of that blood tests? Draw blood they tested. Not a single drop of blood. They never tested a single drop of blood because they thought that he was guilty. We had the blood tested. And right in the within inches of the mother's body. In the bathroom where the state argued, the killer cleaned up. Is the daughters blood. A trail of blood going to the bathroom, and then the mother is blood on the outside of the daughters window. We did a just a minimal investigation into the daughter and it turns out. That, she had a history of. Crazy violence she had a condition called intermittent explosive disorder where you would snap and just go off the rails the that's a condition. It's a condition, a psychiatric condition we look at her medical file. When she's diagnosed with intermittent express explosive disorder they they put her in four points restraints. That's your arms and legs. And there's in the doctor's notes. Few years before this happened where she says her mother I'm GonNa fucking kill you if I ever get out of your fucking kill all of you. Then, we find out that she is confessed all over town. We had people coming in all over the place testify affidavit says, she said I killed my mother and my grandmother, all do it to you and I got her on the witness. So Watch this the state still retry him his conviction gets overturned. The Florida Supreme Court throws it out says that he is obviously there's obviously a real problem here in the state instead of saying you know what we screwed up here they double down and it happens in all of our cases very rare not all most of them were the state comes up with new theory. They said, well, that must have been old blood from her cutting herself and they had no explanation for why her mother's blood is mixed with her blood in her bedroom. Want her mother's blood is outside of her window I demanded proof there and there was. Incontrovertible proof. So Watch what happens? There is a blood swipe on her mother's ass. Her mother is struggling to get out of the house. and. The killer grabbed at her pulled her pants down and there's a four fingered blood swipe. And I always thought it was weird or three finger blood swipe excuse me and I always thought it was weird that there was only three fingers and blood at someone trying to grab it her. So when I had her on stand I said. I got a court order to take pictures of her hands because I wanted to see if there were scars on her hand and she lifts up her hand and her pinky is bent down like this. And I said, what happened to your Pinky? She said certain I cut my finger off when I was fourteen because I'm a cutter and I severed my attendance exactly right I said was your hand like that on the night that your mother and grandmother were killed. She said yes. and. I looked at the prosecutor and I said. have. You have you seen enough? They don't quit I. had they just WanNa win they just WanNa win. They just WanNa win and he I'm happy to report that after her examination and then an amazing examination by my co counsel Maury. Palmer. which explosive bunch of other lies the ex-boyfriend ex-boyfriends current wife came in and testified that he told her that the daughter killed her and that she snuck out of her house that night his house that night climbed out of the window and then returned later in the night. They dropped the charges in the middle of his retrial and I got to walk him out. Off Death row and in trump's America. They would not they put an immigration hold on him and It was like out of a movie he got walked out of the prison. To immigration. and. There's like a mounting crowd outside of immigration on. How it happened, I got him at Immigration Bonn and walked him out of the Immigration Center that night. And to Jason's point I have never other than the birth of my kids my wife hitting a home run and little league. Never, had I've never floated like that. Fighters winning world titles that you. No. Better feeling than to restore someone's life you hit a home run a little league one way. To Great. So it's so hard to hear these stories man because you just imagine yourself. Did I get to you on camera man. Yeah Yeah. He's a beautiful guy to Joe Girardi some guy who comes to America. You know. And you know you get me going you meet this guy and. Here's the crazy part I was called. He got. fucking crazy. Just about Joe I'll tell you what I had to go through to get it. I'm not patting myself on the back watch this. I've skipped one retrial. The first retrial was in front of a judge. The same judge denied him post conviction relief said I don't care that the daughter's blood is there that she confessed I don't care watch this. She denied him post conviction relief. And she he gets his case overturned in the Supreme Court. Her credentials to serve as a judge in a death penalty case had lapsed? After his case gets reversed she files for special dispensation. To become a death penalty judge and says, even though I don't still have my credentials, I wanna be the judge on his case seeks out his case. They're seeking the death penalty and she denied him the constitutional protections that the US Constitution said that when you death qualified jury. If you violate these rules, the case is going back appeal and I would say to her your honor. You don't understand we're going to be back here. Again, you can't not tell the jury don't research the case in the hallway. They're going to research the case in the hallway and she was she wanted to kill him and at one point I stood up and I said I'll tell you something I had to go at her so hard I find out that she was the judge in the Trayvon Martin case whose husband represented George Zimmerman and wouldn't recuse herself. So all of a sudden the paper start picking up that I'm clashing with her in courts. And I one point had such a run in with her that I sat down and Clementi was crying. And I said I'm sorry I thought he was going to fire me because I went out with her so hard and I said, I said I understand and he put his arm on me and he said. She's GonNa kill me. He said. Please, keep doing. So I kept I just kept going at her. And she finally had to declare a mistrial. because. A juror came in and said that they were all researching the in the hallway. And that they thought that he was listening to music because he was listening to the translation on the headphones. So to get these exonerations, it is such a grueling fight and if you meet Clementi. He's the most gentle kind human being. And is still an immigration limbo and to tell you what a great man this guy is I'm in there in Florida. Lake. Fighting like unthinking. There's no fucking way. I'M GONNA, get him off and he's calling me listen when we get him out. I'M GONNA get we'll get him up in an apartment and we'll pay for this and pay for that. I thought he was crazy I said, this guy has no fucking clue involve against. And to. You know I'm such A. Amid? So in his debt and I am so all of him, even though he's my friend that to this day. He and I have jointly supported Clementi financially, but he pays for his. Room and board, and to be able to be in a position to help these guys and just help them start a life again. and. You know this guy still believes in. America. After all that's happened him. He still believes it's the best place to be. What happens to a judge like that? How does judge not go to jail? How how does someone I mean? How does someone get away with that? She's violating the law in a in clearly he's innocent right so she's trying to kill a man who's innocent of the judge that took over the case she had to recuse herself in a fit of embarrassment and the judge took over the case of such a beautiful guy his name is judge Galactico. All he did was uphold the law and he prosecutors would come in and try to get rid of jurors that said I believe that you know I'll listen to the facts and I will only get rid of. You know I will consider life instead of death and he was just so and you know they have immunity is the answer these judges and prosecutors one of the many flaws of our system right? Jason is that they all have immunity. So what about these cops we were talking about the cops beat the gun in the confession I accomplished that not go to jail how does if you know that? What. Where's that COP now? One of them got promoted. one of them got promoted one of them guide. Does the cop no, the kid was innocent. And they did this many times they do joe and you know we can't take make a blanket statement that they all do and none of us believe that all of them are bad. But there are a lot of really bad actors throughout the system and they don't face repercussions and as a result of that, and it's so important for people to know this I talk about it on my podcast all the time and Clemente's episode. is so wonderful because in in that episode, you really feel his humanity he still has a great sense of humor. He's still has a joy of life and all the exonerates I find have this sort of incredible. I can only describe it as grace right after literally being to hell like death row in Florida get doesn't get closer to hell than that right and he was there for fourteen years and he talks about on the pot. On death row for fourteen years. Yeah. Listen there's a lot a lot worse than that too. Don't get me started on. Anthony. Pan Of which is current case in Ohio you your fucking head will explode. Got Them off after he had he was actually ten of the fourteen years he was on Florida's death row. The other four years were in jails not to be technical but yeah, he was on death row right? But. He funny joke because if we had been checked a little humor into this, right so in in on the PODCAST, I'm wrongful conviction. He talks about how when he went to prison he didn't speak English and he figured he need remember this Josh and he said he needed to learn how to speak English I figured I'm never going to get out of here if I can't help in my own defense. So he asked the guard for a Bible in the guard said there's no no. Bible he goes this is hell no bibles here. So he gave him instead a letter of book penthouse letters like porn giving porn, and so committee says he read this thing seventeen times and he says the seventeenth time he finally got a heart audience says but not because of the Ford because I realized I could speak English right and you hear him say this just you WanNa hug them fugger he's such a good and decent guy and he just loves life and appreciates everything but imagine that. It took Josh Dubin right one of the great lawyers in our country. Yeah let's that's. That was right after that was that's me on the right was right? That was the moment. That was the moment that he got exonerated. Wow co-counsel Lindsey Bony and Dylan Black Southern Gentlemen who this case changed their lives and that's Mari Palmer I mentioned before and when and where is he? Now? He's so listen to this. How about this? He would go into court when he was that guy in the white and he would throw a fit. I'm fucking innocent who the fuck you do this to me early in his court appearances when I knew him, he was very docile. So he acted exactly how I would expect someone act. So watch this. Three days after he gets out is always told him. I'm GonNa get you out of here in jail I would say and I'm GonNa take you to the Beach GonNa have a beer and I would say to Jason Up I'm. Starting to think that I'm not. GonNa be able to live up to it. And I had a call at two days after he's out in a hotel. And I said, you know he got located at this place called the sunny center in Tampa. It's this property where they have like officiency apartments for death row honorees and Jason goes to me. That's my place I bought the property. Even know it and he's like this guy's like fucking Robin Hood. MIAMI. Like. Literally from death row to the front row, raise incredible. And I actually it's one of these young. As you mentioned, the music is actually had that experience about a year ago. This is off topic but I can't help saying this is on my mind. About a year ago I was visiting an innocent guy well, no year and a half ago now because it was early, Lee January visiting in this guy death row in taxes name rob will and I left there and food to La that was on a Monday was down there and then. Food L. A. and ended up going to the grammys on Sunday and ended up moving around some sees whatever and sit in the front row and I had that feeling I was like Holy Shit what a week I literally went from death row to the front row. It's strange lifestyle leave it's it's a double life. It's you know it really is it gives a lot of meaning to to our days you know and it's important. You know I can't help talking about the death penalty when we talk about Shorty Clemente because. In this country, a lot of people still don't believe in death penalty and I don't and what I say that people believe in the death penalty is. I respect your view. But what percentage of innocent people are you? Okay with executing right because the system is fundamentally flawed and even if the system was reformed all the ways that we could sit here and think of right now I have some ideas on that. There's still going to be errors there's always going to be they're always going to be errors made, and so you have to accept that they're going to be mistakes. We know that like in Florida were Josh Represents James Daily, and again, we did a podcast episode about his case as well. James is either going to be the hundredth guy executed by the state of Florida or the thirtieth guy exonerated from death row. Clementi was the twenty nine that I'm representing who should be the thirtieth. So they're not even if all the people they executed, we're guilty and we know they weren't right. We know certain people like Jesse to farrow who -absolutely innocent executed by the State of Florida in that gruesome execution where the electric chair quote unquote malfunction and his head caught on fire and add to exit unless we get him three times but even if they got those right, they aren't even batting seven hundred. And then in Louisiana, you know to your point before Joe. A guy named John Thompson rest in peace was a good friend of mine He came within a month of being executed by the State of Louisiana. When an attorney. Investigator staring into a microscope and saw the DNA evidence to prove that he was not guilty of this murder and he was ultimately exonerated and he wrote an opinion piece in New York Times where he said I don't understand why the prosecutor who prosecute because he proved that they knew he was innocent before they prosecuted right he knew it and it was absolutely proven that was not in question. So he said I don't understand why that prosecutors not being charged. With attempted murder they tried to kill me and they knew I was innocent and I've proven that but what happens to the prosecutor nothing nothing nothing this is I've been saying this for a long time that there's a real problem with human beings when it comes to anything where there's a game and the problem with policing and prosecuting people and convicting people and it's a game and meaning that there's winners and losers and when when winners and losers people cheat. There's a lot of people with poor character and they just WanNa win and they get caught up in this game I mean, you can call it a game. You can call it a pursuit whatever you WANNA call it. There's a there's an end that you want to achieve if you're successful and if you if you don't achieve that end, you're unsuccessful. So when people are trying to achieve this end, they will do all kinds of things and it's just inherently a part of human beings that are weak people of character people that are morally flawed. They do things like that. They'll they'll. They they'll know they're wrong and they do it anyway they they know that someone is innocent and they pursue it anyway because they want that. W.. It's a real problem with people. I've seen it with we've all seen him playing games with people kids do it adults do when you see a grown adult cheating at cards? Just, a game of cards it's a fucking it's embarrassing. Think like, who are you? You? You? Really you hate it on the head so much but that's all right. Listen. It is so. Even in the prosecutor Glenties case, and this is not this is not some one off circumstance Joe, you could not have articulated it better. I mean it is you ever been in an argument with someone. And it's like with my wife sometimes, she'll be like, no, you left the keys here. It'd be like, no, I know I gave them back to you, and then as you're in the argument, you remember what she's right I absolutely right. But then you have, you have a decision to make am I going to be big person and I fucked up or another? GonNa continue down this course, right unfortunately. I think I think joe like hit on the fundamental site psycho the psychology is almost like you're right it's binary. It's either win or lose and I was begging I mean you know I'm an emotional dude a mushy and I had to weep to this prosecutor and Clementi's case I had the real murderer on the Stan and I got my first question to her was how many times have you threatened to murder someone watch how Duggan they get she said never. I had dash cam video of her saying to a cop blasting or head against the partition. I'm fucking murder. You you motherfucker. I played the video for. And I said what about that? She said I didn't listen I didn't watch. That's what you those your voice right. And you know I got her and then she says, well I blackout. I say things and do things and I black out them, block them out. I. Finally got her to admit I said isn't it true that you may have murdered your mother and your grandmother and blocked it out she said yes. And I had to sit in a room with this prosecutor. and. I don't know if it was just like you know with like a cry 'cause I'm angry that he won't just say I fucked up here we fucked up and we got the wrong person and I'm weeping to him saying can't you just admit the made a mistake? And and you're right it is that that I have seen it so many times with prosecutors. It's all about getting the W and they just want him admit that they're wrong and I think there's something deeper about human psychology working there where the powers that be won't admit I mean I hate to say but Kamala, Harris was no different here in California I mean she fiercely defended. Wrongful convictions why I mean this isn't like made up. There's like a huge investigative piece in the New York Times about it. It's not something that's Germane to, Florida it's in California to New York and God forbid you're in the south. You know and it's it's a real problem and I don't not solve it when it's not like they're going to completely overhaul the system and stop the whole the way it's set up now with the judge and prosecutors and attorneys, and they're not gonNA change it I mean the system is in place. There's too many cases right? There's constantly. They're constantly hearing new cases. To completely overhaul in and change this method of policing and convicting people, it would require a massive undertaking and that's why we're so appreciative that you give us this forum because there are so many amazing people. that. are that it really literally takes being in in the bowels if you will of the system getting it beneath your fingernails and standing up and speaking truth to power gotta be terrifying to be there to to know that someone is willing to convict someone that they know is innocent because they WanNa win and there's more. There's so many factors that go into wrongful convictions Joe, we see them again and again, tunnel vision is one right they lock in on you decide you're the guy and then more at new evidence comes in says he did it they don't want to hear it they just it's a psychological thing also blind ambition. And there are so many factors that I think some of them are preventable and when when we set out to do these podcasts whether it's the wrongful conviction one or junk science that Josh is the host of just came out or even the false confession series that we did. Our goal is to educate the public because your listeners are GonNa, you and me everyone Jamie over here the engineer's going to end up on a on a jury at some point right and I mean maybe having maybe holding somebody's life in your hands and it's important for you to understand that the people that you hope that are going to be telling you the truth that you respect because authority figures right I grew up respecting uniforms and and. Everything else and I still do. But the fact is they may not be telling the truth and the just because somebody says, they're an expert this with Josh talks about in his pocket doesn't mean they're really an expert they may be talking about things that are actually junk science and furthermore they're allowed to lie in the interrogation room and this is something if we get nothing else across today I, I always tell people when I go to talks. On my show I talk about the fact that if you get picked up and brought in for questioning and people who are innocent waive Miranda rights eighty, five percent of people wave them around rights anyway people are innocent almost always do because they don't think have anything to hide. They think I'll just go in I'll tell them what you know like I wasn't there I was with my mom whatever was and go home and they may not say that you're suspect at all. They may say we just want to ask you if you. So, the answer is if that happens to you. The only thing you should say is this is my I'm Joe Rogan and I want a lawyer or whatever your name is whoever's listening those the only words you should say because they're not your friends and you can get talked in that interrogation room crazy happens they don't always be people up, they don't need to. They can use coercive psychological tactics that can get people to confess to crimes they didn't commit, and once you start talking and. You're in that little airless room. You've seen it on TV right and they start the good cop bad cop and they intimidate you and they threatened with the death penalty and they're allowed lie why they allowed to lie. That's a great question Joe I mean other Western countries they're not but here they are. So they can sit there and especially and you know the people that are most likely to falsely confess our people adolescence right? Anyone who's Brain is not fully formed. We know that you rains not fully formed to your twenty five and military veterans interestingly enough, and they're disproportionately affected by this because they're used to obeying Authority figures right and following orders, and so the Norfolk four classic case that for four guys confessed to Crandon, commit and none of them did it and the central park five is another good example, right? Those raises kids they were just young teenage kids. And, you know they they can sit there and they can threaten me with death and they can sit there and go joe listen we got your buddy in the next room. He's not even there and he says he saw you do we got your fingerprints on the on the knife. Joe What are you talking about? Best thing for you is could best and Joe s you ask the critical question which is why are they allowed to do it? Because there's not a law. No one has the balls all these blow hard politicians have the balls to introduce because they're afraid to piss off the police union because they'll lose that vote right? To introduce Lexus Damn. With the police union should be the ones that are clamored right that introduced legislation now, right introduced legislation right especially now introduced legislation that makes it a crime right to lie to a suspect think about the mind fuck that's going on here and remember the psychology is we're going to deprive you of sleep. We're going to deprive you of food. We're GONNA, scare the living shit out of you and we're going to lie to you. We're GONNA, lie to you and make you see that Chris rock bit reads like cop pulled me over and after a while MME maybe I fucking did do it. It's like that shit is going on and it's like you know you're like. Maybe. I did something and didn't remember it. That's what they start getting you to believe because if they're telling me, they're saying Joe listen we have how the fuck do you explain how your DNA is on the victim? How do you explain that and you're thinking to yourself I can't fucking explained that a I didn't do it but maybe I don't I don't know maybe I did something you don't remember it and then there's there's this. which is you'll hear from a lot of people that are victims of coercive interrogation is. I figured I would just tell them what they wanted to hear get out of the room and then sort it out. Right right and they and they'll say to you listen you're just a kid no one's GonNa. Believe that you committed this gruesome murder, right? You just got to my partners crazy I. Don't know what he's GonNa do you buy while he's out of the room and let me tell you the best thing to do is just signed the piece of paper and you know we'll sort this out later you'll be fine but now you've just signed your own death warrant because juries can't understand when you ask people would you ever competitive? The first one, hundred people you see all saying? No no I'm I'm smart. I would never do that. But the thing is they don't realize twenty five percent. Of the DNA honoration approximately twenty five percent involve false confessions process that that's how many people confessed because because they go down and some of them were right great at it. Some of them may be mentally challenged right the contents also a game it's a game. The same kind of game, it's a game to get you to contrast and it goes on even after the conviction has been overturned liken CLEMENTI's case like in my own adopted daughter Jackson's case where the Tennessee Supreme Court unanimously overturned her conviction for murdering her own mother. And in their in their ruling, they excoriated the prosecutors for having played. So loose with the rules right to say the least and yet they came back and said, listen we're GONNA. Try You again unless you take you take a plea. And most people say to me. Well, let's. Try again for the same thing but they can because the higher court when they overturned your conviction, the indictment still stands originally and most prosecutors say, wow, you know what? It's a long time ago and we've been proven wrong and you know the. Let it go. But if they really are vindictive, they may say you know what I want to protect this this conviction at all and let's not forget that every time we convict an innocent person. The real. The real perpetrator remains free and that even if you're someone who may be pretty hard line hardcore on law and order whatever you know a lot of your listeners come from different. Walks of life different viewpoints. But everybody can agree that we want that person especially these vicious violent crimes, brutal crimes we we should all want the real perpetrator off the street and not for the convenient target to just get you know you know manhandled and and brutalized by the system. And then that other perpetrator oftentimes goes on to commit terrible crimes creates more innocent victims Joshu. You were talking about Comal Harris and I, think this might be a good time to talk about this because she might be the vice presidential nominee. What, what specifically did she do where there was someone who was? Innocent or someone who was wrongfully convicted. Let me give a caveat caveat is that I know I'll catch shit from some people that you have to do everything you can to make sure that trump is not elected. I will say that even even she's an improvement as vice president. If he does pick our anything's an improvement of my mind. So with that caveat, we it would take this podcast and four more to go through. She fiercely fought wrongful convictions and was shamed by judges when she was district attorney in San Francisco what was the case? The Gate the gauge case George the George Gage case where her prosecutors hid evidence. And they tried to protect once she knew that there was. Evidence that was withheld from defense attorneys. Once she should have known in my opinion that people were innocent. She tried to protect those convictions why? Because she wanted to continue winning? She blocked. DNA she she. Went. To great lengths to try to block access to DNA for people that were accused of or convicted of felonies we're talking about a twelve dollar DNA test to see if the biological material from a crime that has been preserved is actually the defendant's right. She blocked access to that. Block access to something like that. That seems like that should be a right. Yeah. It seems like it should be a right. But in a lot of states, there's legislation that says you cannot get access to it in the the rationale behind the does that will open up a floodgate of criminal defendants asking for the biological evidence in their case to be tested I mean, that's the last thing we want is more innocent people being freed we. So what was her justification for? Know. When she's asked for her justification of it, it's always been on a debate stage and she'll always default to I. stand by my record as a prosecutor and She's never had a an explanation that I have ever seen. Jason. There was Jason and I were talking about this before we came on today because there was a new, York Times piece by her name's escaping me Lara Basilan Lara Basil Lawn. which if if any your listeners WANNA listen to her, she goes into. You know exhaustive detail about specific cases and things a Comma Harris did and you know the sad part about it. Yeah. That's it. Right there. Times comal Harris was not a progressive prosecutor. She was often on the wrong side of history. What does that the highlight marijuana one the each she she she stood by criminalizing marijuana in this state. Now listen to what we can hope is that she certainly been saying all the right things lately I don't know what to believe to be honest. She wants to be the president well okay fair. Enough. I mean I. I like to believe that people can evolve and I hope to her viewpoints have evolved now she supports legalization. But the fact is it's it's impossible to ignore and I hope I hope Biden pick someone else personally. But you know we'll see and I don't mean picking anything I doing it for him at this point well, I'll support him no matter what who he picks if he picks her so be it because I believe we're in an existential crisis and we need to DC the look at this is crazy. She could have demanded DNA testing and Cooper case now. is on death row. All right. You think about this Could if they had denied DNA testing and CLEMENTI's case, he would have been either dead or still on death row. What are we talking about here? We're talking about a test. She has constantly in case after case issue after issue and look the that she hurts the most or people of color in this country because they make up you know does the portion of disproportionate and so it's it's it's kind of truant children think made me fucking yes. Sick awful. She went after the parents of truant children threatened with jail time. Imagine you're single mom you're just doing your best to put food on the table you have to work two jobs in your kids are understandably fucking up and not going to school because there's no father around. You Know How do you know? Yeah, you're not devastating. This is think about it this way because I can only think about it in real life examples. Okay. This is how there's enough of a shit show and a fight to get out even at look I have a client in New York who is like and these people become like family to us I mean he's adopted one of the exonerate uses his daughter now. You know John Restivo was convicted of raping and murdering someone with two of his friends to people that worked for him. He is framed by a cop. They take a hair from the victim and they planted in his moving truck. Oh Jesus, Christ the way that they found out that it was planted. Is that when your hair? You'RE GONNA love this right when the hair is attached to the human head. When you die, there's a physiological phenomenon that happens called postmortem root banding where a band goes around the root of your hair. Okay, and it happens after you've been dead, the minimum four hours prosecution's theory is that he picks up this girl sixteen year old girl walking home from the roller skating rink with his two buddies throws earn a van. They raper killer dumper near a cemetery in it. All happens in forty five minutes. The way that they finally find out that he was frame is it's a moving truck they searches moving truck and they find hundreds of hairs because we all shed hair. They find one hair from the victim. And it's pristine the prestige hair in the trump no kinks on it no dirt no debris and there's a postmortem root band around it, which means they had to have taken it from the autopsy after four ads, four hours, and we ended up finding out that the cop had access to the envelopes were the autopsy was. In any event John Restivo back to the DNA. The perpetrator ejaculated. And they had a lot of semen a lot of biological material DNA. He fought for years to get access to the DNA. Finally gets access to it. They test the DNA and he's excluded and his two co-defendants or excluded. All right. What the prosecutor does is say, okay well, there must have been a fourth perpetrator. Oh. So they start testing in. This is a process that two years they start five years. They start testing every single known male associated of John Restivo, Dennis Hall said, Halston John Cogut, and they can't, and it's only after that. That he gets out, he spent eighteen years. For a rape and murder, he didn't commit. He's you know I love him. He's like a like a brother to me now but you know he's destroyed. You don't come back for what happens to someone like that. Do they have any recourse? There's a happy ending in that regard and John Sorta I was one of his one of the lawyers that represented him in has civil rights trial he. was awarded eighteen million dollars a million dollars for every year that he was incarcerated. And you know to show you like what the lasting psychological damage. So we got to civil jury for civil, Rights Violations Against Nassau County with which indemnified this cop that framed him and he got some closure that way to the extent that you can get any closure and we were outside waiting for the verdict outside of the courthouse and he's smoking a cigarette and he put out the cigarette and he took a paper bag a plastic bag out of his pocket, grabbed the button, put it in the plastic bag and sealed it, put it in his pocket I said John What the fuck you doing. He said you think. I'm going to let someone take my DNA. Again You know and I you know that's how bad it is. So think about that in the context of Kamala Harris. Block access to DNA. Once you get the fucking DNA, you're still sometimes in a crazy uphill battle because there's prosecutors in my opinion just like Kamala Harris the one that WanNa win and want to protect that conviction and we have so many cases joining last year this year last year the instance project was representing a guy in Arkansas name ladele Lee was a Kansas Arkansas Arkansas as Arkansas and we were just just wanted to. DNA test. We had a lot of evidence that he was innocent and the state refusal that has tested and they went ahead and executed. In any way. We also have cases like the Sedley Alley case, which ironically is the same prosecutor prosecuted my doctor daughter Nora on Jackson but in the case he was executed and the state denied him access to DNA it was a horrible crime young Cadet Girl was jogging and she was Brutally raped and murdered, and he was executed for this crime asking for the be tested and the state reviews and five years later, the higher court said, Oh, you guys made a mistake you should have allowed the DNA testing. Now his daughter has come forward and said, I want to know I want my dad's DNA tested I wanNA prove his innocence and we now have evidence of who we think it might have been because there was another guy who was a cereal. Murderer, and rapist to his in that area at that time, we don't know that it was. But until we tested DNA, we can't now and the state has refused to let us let her tested even posthumously. So this goes on all over the country and it's crazy. Of course we want to DNA tested everybody should want the DNA tested and but you know one thing I wanna point how does that it's it's gratifying to see attention being brought by by you and by others people who are so prominent in society and it's also. Become such a hot button issue that if you look at for instance Ab Kovic I right I mean her campaign was derailed because people were going hey, what about my own Burrell? which was a sixteen year old kid that she prosecuted there was evidence of his innocence she ignored all of it. He's still in prison twenty years later and she she touted this as as a you know like she she bragged about like it was an accomplishment as accomplishment right and then she also part of the problem dirk show von was still out. was still acting as a police officer I'm not familiar with she was. Yeah she she's heard that tell us she's from Minneapolis Yeah, right? Yeah. No there's there's a connection because there's had something to do with him and his the prior cases where he had exhibited police brutality and that she had done nothing about it, she was connected to that. In many people's eyes was eliminating her as being a possible candidate for vice president because they thought it was gonNA come up and I've read that very briefly a few months ago Jamile find something if it's and. Then she denied the charge that she didn't charge them. But I don't know she denied. They didn't charge him. What does that mean? Reports that she failed to bring charges on two thousand six. Sounds like a double negative lie but she says flat out shells shows no the president Mexico's. But maybe now joe saving now we will have an environment where. You know prosecutors we know our our ambitious people generally speaking there you know everyone is, and then everyone has the right to you know existing succeed to the level that they are capable of succeeding to but not cheating right to go back to what you said before. But now there's finally even though there are no legal consequences. Accepted the rarest airs rarest of cases. But now at least there are real consequences in terms of running for higher office where these things can come back and bite you in the ass, and hopefully that will make people think twice and this is the case we quote. Yeah. The case one more time. What happened visit Kidney Mayan Burrell Ny O. and Barral B. U. R. E. L. and he was a sixteen there was i. think it was a young girl eleven year old girl was shot in her kitchen when she was doing her homework and the. You know a lot of pressure to solve that case right and they'd picked up this kid I don't know why exactly I don't remember all the details of the case because I have so many of them at once. Held jail teen for life but case was flawed. And this is ABC News and this is a long time ago and he's still in prison and and by the way we're we're picking on on, you know certain people but they're not this is not a problem that's exclusive to Democrats by any mean they're they're means they're a ton of. The case of Courses Republicans. So what is I'm sorry to interrupt what was the evidence and indicated that he was innocent. Do you know the cases I remember that the actual killer confessed in this case and this guy still in jail. Yeah. He's still in jail. There's there's a lot of evidence of his innocence. We can go back through it but I I, it's it's a disgusting case and he is. But he's still there just like so many of these other people are and I do want to talk about the compensation because you raise that earlier joe because I think that's an important thing for us to talk about because in the twenty seven years, I've been doing this work. People ask me the question that you ask both questions that you actually most frequently people who are new to it. I'm talking to them on the golf course I'm talking to them anywhere we are. And because I'm always Out there talking about this stuff. And they'll say to me did did did the people who framed him? Did they did they have to face any consequences right and the answer's almost always now and they will tell me that that that the compensate like people like breathless, right? Like this is so horrible. They react the way you did this I anything right And the answer is usually not I mean this Restivo case and John, it's such a beautiful beautiful guy. He also was on my pocket what a guy man he's incredible and he's helping other exonerates to as as so many others are. But and I want to show him out for that. But in the majority of cases, there's no compensation we at the innocence project and that's innocence project DOT ORG FOR PEOPLE WANNA learn more. We are working state by state. Rebecca Brown runs our policy department she's incredible she's going state by state with exonerates to pass compensation statues because eighteen states have no compensation statute whatsoever for exonerates and some of them it's capped at twenty five thousand or like Illinois two, hundred, thousand no matter how long were in for. The COP planted the evidence is there consequences for him? None what none you know the the judgment against him was covered by Nassau County He died a horrible death of cancer and you know John Always says to me look I would never wish a lot anyone, but it seems like Karma played a part in that. you know and it's interesting. You ask the question earlier. That I'm not so sure I know the answer to which is you know when they're in, they're interrogating someone. Or they beating a confession out of them because they think they did it or not. And I don't know the answer. I. Think that there is some cops that. Barry Sheck taught me this. Once he said, don't always demonize the COP. Because sometimes I think that they feel like. They have their hunch is better than the lack of evidence in other words they feel like because they feel it. They think that the person did it that they'll let the the means justify the or the ends justified the means So I don't know that they go in trying to frame someone but there's always a point at which like the story with my wife and the keys were you have a choice to you have this open your eyes and say you know are am I going to realize that there's no evidence here and get off this notion that this person committed the crime the problem is with your wife and the keys there's no consequence. If you're a man, you say fucked up I'm sorry. But if you're a prosecutor and you realize that this person is innocent and you back off and you lose the case, there's consequences for your career. You look like a fool you look like you can't be trusted. Someone's going to point that out when there's another case, right? I mean listen it extends the Compensation Issue Watch. What happened to Clementi? There's a wrongful incarceration. Compensation Statute in Florida. All right and what it says is that. From the time. You are no longer incarcerated. you have ninety days to file. CLEMENTI's case got overturned in I think two, thousand, thirteen the very day. The Florida Supreme Court overturned his conviction. The State of Florida said going to retry you they announced the same day. We filed for wrongful compensation wrongful incarceration compensation. In it got denied. And what the state said was. On the day that they announced, they were going to retry him. He was no longer incarcerated. He was went from being incarcerated to being in custody and so wow, that's that's pretty fucking rich So in other words what he thought. Was I'm going to face the death penalty again for a crime I didn't commit no one came to his prison cell and said, by the way you're no longer incarcerated you're just in custody. So they write these statutes in a way that they have trap door to jump jump out of and to not his compensation was denied. So I filed a federal civil rights complaint on his behalf we have a civil case going, but it's very rare that they get compensated and I think that that's where you know where I have been. Inspired so much by Jason because here's a guy that. Uses. It's made me poorer but I'm happy to be poor as a result because we're he's made it his mission in life I mean is like a modern day robin. Hood he really is. He's made it his mission in life. To sorry if I make you blush but he's like a hero of mine because. He has made it. His has life's calling. That you know. The people indeed in that needed most are GonNa get it as long as he can give it. And he's sort of brought me along on that ride. So we personally financially support as many exonerates as we can because we feel like it's it's the very least we can do to try to help whether it's buying someone a car helping them with their rent with school tuition whatever it is because it's the very least we can do and most of them are denied compensation and until they can get back on their feet in some way, I, mean you think about it, they come out their life is ruined. You don't ever really I don't care what anybody says you never really recovered from this. I mean look Clementi. Would send my daughter from his prison cell. Exquisite. Drawings, he taught himself to draw on death row. And he told me the only reason I learned to draw is because I would've I literally would have lost my mind I was losing my mind I had to figure out something to channel anxiety. So when he got out Jason has been having these art shows for death row for on death row inmates because so many of them. Become good artists because they have so much time on their hands and I said Clemente do you want maybe we can do some art and raise some money for you and he started a weep. I said, what's wrong he said Josh tried to draw. And I had a panic attack. Brought me back into the cell. And let me just talk about Josh for a second to because. First of all, we're blowing each other exactly. It's funny. It's funny though because we were introduced by Nina Morrison, who is the? Super Bad ass senior litigation counsel at the innocence project and when she put us together, which is several years ago she said Josh what do you? What do you do? He goes I'm a jury selection expert. He goes I can look in your eyes and see your soul I was like Oh shit but anyway, he's more than that and the fact is that this case my son Michael Michael Flom he he called US earlier when we were talking he, he brought me to buy attention to a case of Albert Wilson who we believe is roughly convict in Kansas. Josh is wearing the shirt free Albert, Wilson and I brought it to Josh attention. He looked at it and he said you know what? I'm going to take this case pro bono we flew out there. We visited Albert was plenty because his lawyer forgot to tell him that his his local. We were coming. It felt like the scene in animal house for the kids eating a playboy bunny flies in the window. I don't even know if we can say that anymore. But anyway so we just showed up unexpected here we are like bumble fuck, Kansas, and and sitting down with Albert and but but we were like the fucking Jewish Beatles walking in their. Vendors. Are here from the process we were like. Yes. We're here to save you sir but Josh is the guy who actually that we we've been supporting the local attorney, very good local attorney Mike Wheel and in this case and Josh. He's spending not volunteering services. He's spending his own money to finance the case, the parts that he can't cover himself and he gets mad at me like if we we alternate payments and if I take two in a row, he gets mad at me. Are you. Some Mother Teresa Shit he's on whatever it doesn't matter what the point is. I'm really excited that he's now doing this new podcast junk science and by the way if anybody wants to to learn more about this I, post about all the time on my instagram, which is at it's Jason Flom. There's another Jason was a schoolteacher in Tallahassee had their first, but now we know each other but anyway But yeah, it's Jason Flom is my instagram and I'm always posting about these cases but so so josh is now. Hosting. Pike has called Junk Science. This is what we started talking about the beginning. Then I made you stop and redirect. So we've come back to it. So explain what is the junk science? What are the issues with wrongful convictions and junk science? So the All various disciplines of forensic signs are used to convict people, and in fact, wrongfully convict pizzas polygraph polygraph work polygraphs not admissible. It's not so no, it doesn't work. It's not reliable, but is it because you could beat it if you're a psychopath beat it. There's all different factors that cause your blood pressure to rise. You may just have high blood pressure. You May. Your heart may beat faster and you get anxious in different situations. So it just doesn't work and it's not admissible in any courts but I'm talking about things that you would probably think it just based on pop media even if you're very well read which you are, you'd say, Oh, well, that's reliable. Bite Mark Evidence. All right. It's complete junk science and the National Academy of Sciences is a the gold standard it's got the finest scientists in the country that did a review of all of the forensic disciplines that are used in courts. And found that with the exception of DNA. All of these are fraught with problems. Bite Mark Evidence Blood splatter arson. Coercion. Course Confession, what the podcast does is it examines all of these. Episode. By episode, it examines all these forensic disciplines and it goes through to explain how and why a total bullshit and be. They are. In the face of it being total bullshit still accepted now, like the fact that you got emotional, made me WanNa hug you because it was like I you know it takes a special person to be able to get there on that level, but now wanna try to make you angry because I think it is. It's the anger that should drive people I'm already. Take by take. About this another things take the but about all the so bite mark evidence for. We give an example I. have crooked teeth like the bought my body crooked. If I bite into a mouthpiece like if I get a mouthpiece forum, do you can clearly see I can see that it's my teeth you WanNa know the you want to know the difference between a mouthpiece and human skin everything humans your skin is different than my skin in thickness and consistency if you're flexing when I bite you if it's during struggle or not, and you have to follow the Science and what the science tells us is that bite marks on human skin Are Not only unreliable but there has been study after study that the so-called experts that they call Odin Tala just can't tell the difference between a bite mark an insect bites they can't even agree they were all shown the self professed finance Odin technologists in the country are all shown pictures of Marx on human skin they can't even agree as a threshold matter what's a bite mark and what isn't data? That's a medical term Odin Tall Gist Sell Odin Tala. Gist is is a forensic denton dentists that fancies themselves an expert and bite marks, but it's bullshit. Not only is it bullshit? But the origin story of all these forensic scientists sciences you end up down a rabbit hole to some. fucked up story that sounds like a wacky religion. Take Bite, marks, for instance. There's a guy named George burroughs reverend in the late sixteen nineties. He's accused of torturing young girls. Okay and one of the forms of torture is biting them. And he's tried and convicted, and they take him around the courtroom and pull his mouth open and they point to the crookedness of his teeth, the ridges in his molars and they compare it to the bite. Mark. And he's hanged publicly. And he cites the Lord's prayer at his hanging and you know everybody in the crowd was like that's kind of fucked up because. Witches. Aren't supposed to be able to sight the Lord's prayer. Because this was a trial during the Salem witch trials. He's the first. Posthumous. Exoneration I'm aware of twenty years after this they ended up finding out that George burroughs was in a different town altogether not only didn't bite these people but at the march warn even bites. This is a part of the sale Salem witch trials and. They. They posthumously exonerate him. The colony of Massachusetts Paces family compensation. So watch this in the one, thousand, nine, hundred, Seventy S. there's a guy named Walter marks that is accused of biting of victim in a murder. And the court. In that case says, you know what? There's no established science here it can't be replicated. But Bite marks are associated with you know identifying accident victims, burn victims and admits it. And it gets admitted into evidence. The Appellate Court says, well, if the if the judge founded credible, who are we to overturn it And so Joe Watch this it now infects and is probably an unpopular analogy to us now, but it spreads across the criminal justice system like a virus. Every court just start citing this marks case and judges to start admitting it. The National Academy of Forensic Sciences. Found that there's no way to replicate it that it's unreliable the there's this fucking crackpot name West who is an Odin technologist that claimed to use three d pictures ultraviolet he said they set him up. They sent him. you know bite marks and the mold of a teeth from someone other than the defendant and said, we think this is the defendant. Can you match to this bite mark and he said, yes, they had sent him the bite mark of someone other than the defendant Emmett is that it is that bad of a junk science. So what what we're hoping to do is through the podcast to educate people because it you're right it is how do you overhaul a system burn? It's a monster and one of the ways that you can overhaul the system is everybody says, had he they asked me a lot how I get out of jury service and I say, you know what? You should want to be there because God forbid you're accused of something you didn't do wouldn't you want you on your jury? So one of the ways we want to do it is to get people thinking you know what I can make a difference here because there's no presumption of innocence we throw that around like it exists it doesn't exist there been studies done. My firms done one were well over ninety percent of people. Feel like if you've been accused of a crime you probably did it look I represent how I met Lennox. I represent Lennox in a case Lennox Lewis we should tell people. Okay. So I managed Lennox. Lewis and. I represented him Him was I- represented him in a case and. It's interesting. Most people say to me when I say that, what did he do? Of course, instead of what what was the accused? He actually wasn't accused of anything Lennox was suing a boxing manager and promoter or from ripping them off and for stealing from him But if you ask people during jury selection, how many of you in a criminal case and when I was you know a lot of jurors were asking well, what did he do? An do anything. But if you ask jurors criminal case if a judge will let you ask it what you should be able to ask. How many of you think my client? He was arrested indicted must have done something wrong. Hands go flying up. And, you know it should be a basis to get rid of people. That's not the Brim Shipman. That's the assumption of guilt. It doesn't exist in this country and it takes more people to be conscientious and one of the things that we're trying to do on the podcast. Is Educate them about these junk sciences so that if you're ever on a jury and you hear, well, the trajectory of the blood mark on the wall shows you that the person must have grabbed the knife from this angle it's total bullshit. More. Time, what's the name of the podcast the name of the podcast his wrongful conviction junk side. Okay. So that blood splatters Shit I'd watched the whole thing online about how? These people figure out like how someone must have hit them this way and I've seen it in movies. That's all bullshit total bullshit said the second episode of the PODCAST I have a gas by the name of Pamela, Cole off who's an award winning writer. She just won every award. You could win for writing an article about uninformed in case of mine and I got to know her and she wrote an amazing investigate piece about blood splatter evidence Propublica, our Texas monthly or the New York Times. One of those three I should know and she went. Undercover, deep, and she became a certified blood spattered analysts as part of a research. This is a discipline that was born in the basement of some wack job up in New York, he called it the national forensic laboratory or some shit like that, and it was his basement in his house and he would do things. Like. Recreate crimes by like. You know hitting cadavers and watching the blood splatter and it just like think about it. There's so many things wrong with that. The way the blood travels out of the body from a static. you know a static body versus one or blood is circulating already changes it. The temperature of the blood is different. If you're struggling and I hit you with a blunt force object a hammer bat and your arm is coming up this way depends on the speed your arms traveling it is total and utter bullshit, but it's admissible it's admissible. As his bite mark evidence even though in all fifty states as is even though the the highest court in Texas faced in the work of the innocence project I mean the highest authority in Texas strongly admonished the course not to consider blood to consider by Mike evidence but they still do in spite of the fact that there's case after case that proves that these guys who make themselves out to be these experts don't know anything about what they're talking about I mean, it's it's we should all be embarrassed and ashamed that this is allowed to go on in our courts and you think about a joke. For policy was created as a practice so that if there's a disaster, if there's a plane crash right and bodies are obliterated, they can take a full set of teeth and it can compare it to your dental records. Now, you take the idea that someone's going to bite an imperfect surface, right like a finger or you know your neck or whatever it is right and now you're gonNA. Go with a couple of teeth on an imperfect surface days or weeks later and you're GonNa go this must be Joe's Steve Because sometimes I, really know if you have teeth or not joe check this out in the National Academy of Sciences Report. They were able they did a study and they sight to it in the report you can get it online. It's they did a study where they would have people with no teeth bite human skin. And the people with no missing there to frontier, the bite mark appears as if they have to frontier. People that have to frontier combined down and if their incisors are too long, it can make it appear that they're missing to frontier. So it's just you know as far as blood spatters concern. There is a case. I think it's the Peterson case that my friend David Rudolph did know the staircase that show on Netflix Guy. Guy. Was Accused of pushing downstairs. I think it was in this case where they were trying to recreate the blood splatter analysts were trying to recreate the spanner in the staircase and there's video of them doing it. and. They keep on hitting this. this receptacle full of blood and they can't recreate it and they keep on doing it and doing it, and finally on the whatever fifteenth, try they get it and they all start celebrating and high fiving. You're supposed to be able to replicate this shit and the reason why DNA is is so. Reliable is that it's going to be the same every time it is the gold standard it. Now, there are ways manipulated. There are certain people out there that are trying to fuck with it right now. How so you know like for instance, there's this guy who runs this computer algorithm. and. He claims to be able to take a mixture of a bunch of different people's DNA, untangle it right and basically be able to say who's DNA. Is What and you know he won't give the on a code for his data and. This shouldn't be a black box. So there's there's some things going on like that. But for the most part when it's done correctly and the right standards are applied, you can bet on DNA, but a lot of these pattern matching disciplines, blood splatter fingerprints in some instances Evidence you know and what are the other ones? Tread tracking on shoes arson are arson. Arson slip and they can figure out where fire was started. I always wondered about that so. No sorry. So arson. Arson? Science, is not science whatsoever arson. You can become a licensed arson investigator with a forty hour correspondence course I know it sounds like a joke, but it's true same thing with blood spatters a forty hour course at the end of the week, you can go into any court in the country and SAMA bluffs better. I always wondered because I would see house burnt to the ground and they would say, Oh, they determined it was started by a fire and this is how they determined I'm like but everything's burnt out like how do. You know there are countless people serving hard time in in prisons in America Joanne Parks. I'm Christine Bunch interviewed product is she brought me to tears who was convicted of setting a fire. I mean her her case in Indiana Helen scene is Joe. Whereabouts Releases episode. But she was twenty one year old mother of a three year old boy and her trailer caught fire. She was asleep. She woke up she couldn't get into this room was to the fire was out of control and the little boy died and the fact is that. She they they went they arrested or six days later and charged with arson and murder, and the prosecutor said to the jury. Look. We admit we don't have a motive. We don't have a motive. She was a loving mother with no mental issues with no esther you have any other history, the apartment she goes. Yeah. Once I got a warning for five miles an hour over the speed limit and she everybody said she was a doting loving mother. She was working going to school and she lost everything she owned she didn't have insurance. She didn't have a shirt to wear at the end of this right because she was in her pajamas it's like. I mean and it was an electrical fire was proved seventeen years later by actual exported they us as arson evidence against her case, they claim that there was certain type of accelerate which there wasn't They withheld evidence that there was kerosene that had been present in the house from previous owners who who had come forward and said that there was you know and that was you know there was just decided that she was guilty and they were GonNa try to win and and that's the sick thing about it is that these arson cases there is there was no crime, there was a tragedy but no crime nobody. Co is in for seventeen years and she's such a beautiful human I mean you would you would meet her. And you just want to her she's just a magnificent human who in prison did do most phenomenal things and now she's helping other she has an organization maybe look it up Jamie. She has a wonderful organization I'd like to shout out and she's making a real difference and she I think helped pass the compensation statute in. Sorry in minute step, I was just going to say that what happens with a lot of these forensic as is they were they engineer outcome. So they decide that the person did it and there's all this this confirmation bias I know that I've heard you talk about it you're familiar with it. You know you know the desired outcome. So you confirm that bias so you know then start looking at. A streak. From a smoke stain on the wall. And knowing that the theory is that there was a match struck and placed against the wall right? They will say, well, that's why you see the pattern that you do of that stain on the wall of smoke were the reality is that there are a lot of different explanations for how something can look the scientific analysis of of charred remains not remains of people but remains of different things, chemical compounds and things, and if you're working to reverse engineering an outcome, you know it's it's easy to make this stuff sound. Reliable because if you don't have experience with it, I mean look this is a big. I hadn't done any bite more cases all of my cases. So I, I actually tried to approach it with an open mind. I'm literally stunned at what I'm finding out doing research for the episodes because it sounds like some wacky religion you know that somebody invented in their house and people buy it. So is all this stuff still in? Use because no one has exposed the fact that it's all junk science or is it because it's established as a part of what they accept in trials and they just haven't made the corrections yet because if they did, then they would have to accept the fact that all these other convictions that were based on this junk science would be open to reinterpretation in the trailer for Junk Science Josh addresses exactly that and he judged. Very eloquently, which is that along with Chris Fabric can't who is a Strategic Litigation Director at the innocence project it was actually a post I created in honor of my dad who's not anymore why helped to create I should say, and he does an incredible job but basically, they keep using it because the precedent is there right once it's Josh talks about maybe we could even play the trailer but Shawn He. Can we can we pull it up on a podcast APP now Jimmy Fallon Suzy finds. That'll that'll say it more eloquently tonight possibly. fucking hard to listen to, and then they're shaken baby syndrome, which will be covering on junk science, which is, which is like everyone's heard those words it's. It's a ridiculous idea that you can shake a baby hard enough to rattle its brain without injuring it in any other way right. So we're supposed to believe that a woman who's a mother right? First of all, it's hard to believe that they would kill their kid but okay, let's let's suspended this believe how do you shake a baby where you're the? You're strong guy. Okay. But let's say you don't have a big muscle mass and you have a baby sometimes they're toddlers it could be a fifteen twenty pound kid. You're going to hold it out at arm's length and shake it. No, your arms aren't going to do and by the way. Unless I'm mistaken people most people get mad at something they don't shake it. They hit it they kick it or throw it right and get mad at your golf club. You don't shake it hit a bad shot whatever I mean it's you know it's madness and yet it's accepted in courts and they're. Countless. People serving time. You Know Melissa Kallis INSKEEP WANNA can't leave her out John Jones and Ohio innocent as could be misdiagnosed. It's interesting to Joe Because you. Earlier I may dislike it seemed probably add a places this reference to Lennox Lewis and the reason I made it as because it it blew my mind at how many people walk into a court proceeding with a misperception. and it opened my eyes in that case because people thought or here's a big black dude that's a boxer. He must not be that smart. Any must have done something wrong. That was the the that was the default that people were at and whether or not. That was some intrinsic bias or not I'm not going to upon about that I. Think it's pretty obvious though but. The preconceived notion that people walk into any criminal courtroom with is that the person must have done it. Most people think that if someone was arrested or accused, they must have done it. So that was wise said earlier the presumption of. So then when you hear this impressive-sounding Lingo about something, you don't know anything about. And there's someone who is qualified as a quote unquote expert and they're sitting there using language. You don't know you can't really fault the jurors for falling victim to it. So that's what we're hoping to do is one mind that a time open up people's People's minds if you will and they're thinking about the way that they approach the accused in this country. Jim Zan, play the trailer. going. I'm Jason Flom founder of lava for good podcasts and host of wrongful conviction with Jason Flom true scientific expertise is built through rigorous study review and his absolutely in a court of law. When you trace any of these so-called forensic scientists back to their origins, you get a curious origin story. But what happens when one claims to be an expert in a? Discipline that isn't based in science at all, they take course forty hours. You're an expert in there testifying all over the country. This is Attorney Innocence Project Ambassador Josh Tuban whose name you've heard from me, and from some of the people he's helped free. We hear horror stories of innocent men and women robbed their freedom. We'll examine how science in fact junk science. has played a role in wrongful convictions. He is the host of the brand new series from lava for good podcasts, wrongful conviction junk science whether it be bite marks or are center blood splatter for one court to accept a quote unquote science as valid can lead to the spreading of that science much like a virus across the criminal Justice Josh interviews actual. Experts who can shed light on just how dark things can be in the American criminal legal system? How is it that you could have multiple expert witnesses make that fundamental a different finding with the same evidence why was it ever accepted as reliable because it worked you know the criminal justice system is an efficient edna killing machine of largely poor people of color. and. Whatever facilitates that process is going to be used as long as courts admitted wrongful conviction junk science. Coming to this feed August third, find it wherever you listen to podcasts. I knew this podcast doing with you guys is going to be disturbing, but it's It's more disturbing but I thought it was gonna be like I never would have imagined that all those things were bullshit. I never would have imagined that you'd asked me but you should have given me a pop quiz. Like what is a bite science? Good. You bite the teeth. Yeah. It's all teeth raw fucked up. You could tell his blood splatter. Oh Yeah. The thing you hit a guy with the hammer blood splatters What about arson I guess? Yeah. They figure out where it's lit somehow they're fucking really good at it. Forty hours you go to school forty hours he correspondence course This is crazy in the fact that there's all these people in jail for all these different things. Cameron, Todd Willingham rest in peace was executed by the state of Texas in an arson case where his three children all died. You know and and the his This woman wonderful advocate who had befriended Komo's in prison got a hold of the top fire expert in the world guy from England who has like over one hundred patents invented everything and and he proved all twenty of the. Prosecution's. Theses were wrong and that it had to be an electrical fire, which is what it was and nothing happens to those people. No no and governor Perry oversaw the he he actually. Really rail re rammed that through that execution. It's awful. It's just a it's got to be that story. The Camera Todd Willingham story kills me. You know it's for me Joe it. It goes back to the same thing again, I hate bullying I hate people who are in vulnerable positions being abused in any form or fashion. This is the most serious form obviously when they're literal their freedom and their life is steak and we hope we can touch know we don't have forever while I could talk to you forever love to but you know mass incarceration is it's OK. Oh well, I did want to. Get Home for dinner if it's okay with you. Let's we could probably be. Crying again it's two, thirty, eight as we speak. So we'll get dinner but I if I if you don't mind I would love to just Put a shameless plug out there because this this bullying thing bothers me so much that I wrote a children's book about it with my my other daughter Allison it's called Lulu is right now and it's about my bulldog who who's actually not a bulldog at all. She's rhinoceros trapped in a bulldogs body and it's about her struggle to find love and acceptance where a world in a world where she's judged by her physical appearance in heart just basically trying to teach kids. At it's okay to be different. It's not okay and it's and it's you know in the end of the day of course, she prevails but I, she endures ridicule and bullying I equally hate bullying but I have alternative perspective on bowling I think it's a natural part of animals. It's a natural part of finding weakness in systems and I think there's a way to fix it and I think the way to fix it very counterintuitive. It's to teach people how to fight. And to teach kids how to fight very young. So they never even think about bullying. So these instincts to fi weaknesses in in these systems is a societal systems systems of friends and and systems of communities. Instead you you find them in yourself, you find them through combat you find them through Martial Arts Jason. Can we pause on mass incarceration from minute because? You just like. The my I got the chills just now because you know as A. As, a guy that manages professional prize fighters you know. I have been have an eight year old son. And I told you he's got type one diabetes and I knew as soon as he got diagnosed, he was you know close to a seventh birthday. He's GonNa get fucked with than picked on because he wears an insulin pump on his arm. But before that I I had this idea that my wife's a gentle Canadian. So I took him to Lennox's boxing Cam Lennox Lewis Boxing camp in. Jamaica when he was six right before he got diagnosed, then my wife was like. Why I don't want him to learn to fight and I said, no, that's wrong. Because had I known to fight better? You know I would want some more fights. I got picked on a little bit but I I wasn't you know like I eventually felt like I needed to teach myself to fight or else I was going to get my ass kicked right and so I've been teaching him in Lenox teaches them and Andre Ward teaches him and I always have this tension but I I tell my wife like I think it's the right things long as it's taught the right way use it to defend yourself because as soon as someone Fox will do and you fight back in a way where you put that, you put that fire out very quickly. You're not gonNA, get full that's one way but I really think it should be universal i. think it prevents bullies it prevents them from being bullies I. Think part of why people are bullies is because they're? Insecure and there's a natural inclination to find weakness find weakness another people. It's also one of the reasons why you find this is another people is because you don't WanNa see weakness in yourself and you see another other people you recognize it and you pointed out you pick on it. It's a weird part of humans and I recognized very early on that I hated being picked on and I moved. Around a lot when I was a kid and I wasn't a big kid and I realize when I went to high school with this new plus I learn how to fight and I started doing martial arts and the first thing that I realize. First of all, it changed me it be I became a much much easier going person much easier to get along with my insecurities faded away because now. Instead of being constantly worried that someone's going to pick on me and beat me up I was fighting. So I was always worried about like trained opponents and like regular life stuff was nothing it all faded away because like all my anxiety, both groups of people and dealing with other guys like it kind of went away because my my fear was really getting kicked in the face in Ohio at a tournament. I was GONNA be in two weeks like that was my real it became a real thing and also like who I was like I calm down in this radical way because all of my energy was being exerted in a gym or in a martial art school i. Changed and I realized like real early on like kids need to learn how to fight because fighting is a part of being a person. It's it's arguing is part of being a person physical confrontations apart in person it shouldn't be sure certainly shouldn't hit people, but it's always happened from the beginning of time. The best way to prevent it is to let everyone know how to do it like martial artist trained martial artists are some of the kindest nicest people they don't want to bully people they want to test themselves and challenge themselves. But the ones who wanNA believe people they give fucking weeded out man listen I could every people ask me all the time? What's Lennox like what's? Nice is at actually not only the nicest guys the most deep feeling sensitive insecure in some ways healthy insecurities. If you you know these are too bad motherfuckers. I couldn't agree with you more like I think the May actually has helped bullying and I'll tell you how. I watched Sebastian. MANISCALCO is bit at Radio City musical my wife took me a huge fan. It's good buddy. Man was awesome. I fucking Love Dude. So he has this bit I'm sure you've heard of where he's like man fighting different now you don't fuck don't WanNa fucking these guys will wrap you up and that'll be the end of it and I think that that probably gives bullies. Thought sure. Move Till I. Find Out that you can't fight. Right. Then they start fucking right. That's the inverse album is colleges I really think that even them even the bullies themselves like that's where it's counterintuitive should teach bullies how to fight. You, teach them how to fight. They wouldn't do it would it would get out of their system there'd be better people that's reverse psychology. Reverse psychology. Treating the issue Joe's right every fighter that I know that was a great successful professional fighter. Is a deep thinking not I wanna go so far and idealize him but they are a warm sensitive, sweet human being to be good. You have to address all things you have to address your own insecurities, your own problems you own flaws you have to address everything you know the thing is there's a difference in striker's versus grapplers the difference in strikers physical attributes considerably more important their. Physical attributes and speed and power there. So significant because if you just teach someone throw punches correctly the people that have speed and power. A lot of them are just born fast and powerful. They have great bodies. When you have that you have jain advantage guys with pillow fists, they only go so far You know if you can't of can hit a guy two or three times and always hit you once he can absorb those three times in hit you but in grappling, it doesn't work that way and His technical, it's almost entirely technical like even me as a black below a two hundred pounds. If I grapple another black belt, that's one hundred, fifty pounds, they can tap me out regularly I know a multiple friends that are much smaller than me that are better than me that can tap me out because it's technique is everything, and so you could t and also you gotta get you're GonNa get humiliated and tapped, but you could do it over and over and over again when you get punched in the head, you can only get punched ahead a couple of times a month. Greeley rocked you can get tapped duke gets done little but I mean dropped Like. You can only do that. So often you got fucking permanent brain damage. Arm Barred Multiple Times a day. So you get humbled you recognize what? It's all about, and then you learn these valuable lessons. You've learned valuable lessons as far as technique as far as Marshall is but also. Of who you are as a human, you learn that you can overcome. You learned that you can get better. You learned that you can improve you learn all of the different pathways and where are you went wrong and why you got caught, and then you find that same pathway again, you recognize coming you stop it use the proper defense and you learn you get better you feel better and it gives you a lesson that it improves your human potential. It makes you understand that through these struggles, you can get better at everything you know what? I gotta say. not the sound barrier Dushi about it, but I gotta say. When I started lifting weights and getting physically stronger probably in college when I started to take it really seriously. I don't think that I would have had this may sound dumb. But I'd I know as a matter of fact that I would not have had the emotional strength to stand up to judges and the powers that be. Like I do because struggled I struggled because I struggled because it was a self confidence thing and when I got physically stronger that I'm the most. I know what you're saying right when I got physically stronger of my insecurities about getting fucked with emotionally and physically faded in for me to stand up not that I'm gonNA fight a prosecutor. But for me to know in a purely physical world, there's no match. No. It does something for you psychologically to be able to stand up and say, you know to be able to say look you're not fucking doing anything I mean in the in Clementi's case at one point the cop every time me and the judge got loud. The COP would put in. It's in the transcript the cop put his hand and rested on his gun, and this was probably not the right move but I said what is he doing right now you should do said, what is he doing every time? I make a forceful. Arguments your honor you're grabbing your gun, and he goes like this not doing anything I said now your hands off your gun, but I don't know without getting myself like I also felt that managing professional fighters, the best professional fighters I didn't want to be some some week Dushi lawyer, right I wanted them. So the first thing that I did was got into tournament an amateur tournament and Lennox trained me the tournament work my corner and I made it all the way to the semi finals of this. It was like a pro-am tournament. and. He's like you doing great. You're doing great. I won four fights in a row. I was twenty nine and he said don't get cocky though. The second round of the semifinals I squared up, drop my hands and what donal and I got hit. So hard in the sternum or in rate here that I cracked four. And I was in the corner. Lennox. Is like go dancing last round because you're not. Still would mean your corner. Let's. Dance allows around and they and it was crazy because from that point forward even though I br I didn't even know how dumb I that my ribs extended that far. And from that point on my relationship with him changed it really did he started relying on me for more stuff. To. Up It, really did change and just the Po- The postscript. Grippier. You know who the most the sweetest most sensitive guy is Mike Tyson. I wanted I wanted to something in as well because. Picking up on where what you said Joe the there's an honorary based in New Orleans named Doug, the Lhasa who have developed a tremendous friendship with over the years he was wrongfully convicted of murdering his wife and sends the life in prison actually wrote his own pro se motion which means written by the by the incarcerated person themselves. and. It was granted by the fifth circuit. He's the only person ever do that and was freed after fourteen years and a couple of years ago I was speaking them because we talk all the time because he does a lot of work helping other honorees get back on their feet and we worked together on that. And he sounded really down and I was I was like what's wrong? He goes man my grandson is just his on macy's getting brutally bullied at school. You know he's they broke his glasses they threw him down the stairs in this and that and I was like, have you thought about taking him to martial? Arts. And he said, no, I hadn't really thought about that and sure enough he took his grandson martial arts and now he sends me pictures. He's got this belt. He's got that belt. He's got the other belt and just like you said, I mean I have never met the kid but a lot of respect for him because he's taken the initiative and he's doing great and he's going to have a better life. Exactly. As you said specifically because of that and you know I just wanted to shout him out on the air because I encourage. So often mental broken record but I really encourage Jujitsu because Jujitsu you you're not getting hit. I think that's one of the most important things you don't. You're not. You don't have to worry about brain damage brain damage is real. You know. I've I've seen two people that get it and when you're involved in striking, you only have so many holes that you can punch on that ticket. Until everybody's tickets different some people can go a long time like we were talking to Lennox on the phone today. He's great. He sounds amazing. He's got a he is a clear-headed. He plays chess. He speaks eloquently he totally articulate. He has no issues whatsoever with his long career as a world championship heavyweight boxer but that's not always the case and there's a lot of people that have significant problems when they never go anywhere as an amateur. It's I've seen too many. I was real unpopular to with Lenox because. After. He fought the tally. Klitschko. Young I was the new guy on his team. I'd only been with them for a few fights 'cause after that court case, I ended up CO managing him. And After the cliquot fight he's didn't he didn't habit in them anymore I knew enough to know that he just was done with it. Yeah, and. There was a lot of money on the table for clinical rematch and I would say you don't need this shit anymore and because I saw him stumble one time walking around a corner in a hotel and a man. I said I won't stay on your team until you get. An MRI. And I got threaten I got fucked with by people became a dear friend of mine like like an Uncle Emmanuel Stewart would call me privately say come on Josh One more fight said all takes us more more fight. I represented Shane Mosely represented terrible Terry Norris. King terrible example and you know I shine to this day. We have an icy relationship because after the pack yell fighter said, Shane You. Don't need this anymore and if you just listened to his speech, I love guys beautiful. But I think that he's been hurt Terry's is most certainly been hurt yeah. I remember I rented a Terry at. Boxing Event and I didn't like physically running. I was there he was there and I was watching him talk to someone and I was stunned and this was a long time ago it was Felix Trinidad was fighting someone else who in Vegas and Terry was in the audience and I remember listening to him talk it was awful and it was so. He was you know I represented him against. Don King it made it to jury trial. and. He was diagnosed with dementia pugilist, which is just a fancy way to say brain damage and I gotTa tell you. He hysterically weep when the doctor would get on the stand explain the extent of his brain injury. And a few years after the trial I mean, he spent Thanksgiving at my House I. took him in and became very very close. We won the case real big. And he forgot forgot who I was at one point it's just it's heartbreaking to watch. It really is well, he has some brutal fights man some brutal brutal brutal fights remember when. He fought Julian Jacksonville Mad Billion Jackson crack. He's Hawk he had. He was one of those guys with weird power, right? Like they look like normal punches but people just. That happen in the. Something about the Torque of the punch some some it's it's there's a lot of factors. It's weird. It's so hard to figure out some guys you look at them and go well, of course, he can hardly the fucking build on like Tyson right you look at me go Jesus. Can. Well you know first of all with him, it's not a one punch thing. It's an accumulation of punches in his technique is flawless but I've heard. I've heard from a lot of people that have been hit by him like Curtis Stevens Right He said man. I said you look. So surprised on the campus he look W man. I never been hit with anything that hard on my fucking life. There's a lot of factors you know there's also physiological factors like we were talking about the you can't change like the you've seen George Foreman's hands Oh my God. The fucking Hams, it's like a bowling the end of a log. He's got these crazy Han Lennox is. Normal. Those guys have bigger power. There's just no if ands or buts about its guys with smaller hands there there's no way they're going to be able to hit US hard. It's like having a sledge hammer versus having carpentry finish hammer. You know there's there's a There's Some bureau footage the wall. I don't feel at all bashful about plugging something after you're like, you're like a professional plug machine is very effective. I don't blame you for it, but I was just GonNa say so I don't feel bashful. So I haven't documentary that is coming out um about Lennox. Called Tough Love, the untold story, right? It was in the TRIBECA, film? Festival and at the end of have this awesome footage of Tyson being asked. I think fat Joe's interviewing him Ha- in fact, Llosa. He's got this I guess this web series he's doing a lot of stuff now. Instagram fat Joe said, who's the horrors you've ever been hit by and he pro Lennox? He said man no contest. Just Lennox. Guy would would fucking hit people and they would like. He had so many lights out people just one of my favorite was the Hocine Rochman rematch. Because you knew, the first fight had been stopped quickly and the second fight in he was on a different level he was on a different level and he should have won the first fight. But for whatever reason he got caught and then the second fight man, you could tell he was out for blood and when he lands at knockout blow when you see Rachmaninov's back like that was like the most textbook one to oversee it was so sweet sweet. Well, he's such a big guy to torture the shoulders. There's something about those broad shoulders, guys like those punchers like Tommy hearns him when they get that full snap black and full extension and Lennox's fucking enormous he's in he's He's a crazy athlete. People don't realize like he could play basketball he trips over his feet a little bit. I used to give some big. He's so big but he could play basketball but you know you talk about bullying. I've never I mean the guy you'd have to really really push him. But if you push him in, you crossed the line fucking run. Oh yeah that's a big. That's the problem with Nice guys that are enormous. Dick heads will fuck with them. Even Andrei use a guy looked get his get back if you hit them in the ring. Almost Australia's got a mean streak up at all for sure. We can talk about boxing and wrongful convictions without mentioning Rubin Hurricane Carter right because that's a long time ago but that's One. Slippery. Slippery people think he did it. Yeah. I never heard that billing didn't. Not only did Bob Dylan not thinking but the movie that they made about him with Denzel, Washington left out a Lotta. Shit. Not just left out a Lotta Shit added a Lotta. Shit. They created a lot like the cop that was chasing them the bad cop that wasn't real. Yeah they did. That was what they call a composite. I actually know the whole story on learning from you. It's unfortunate he a. I don't know what he did. What he didn't do. He's a fantastic fighter, but he was definitely hanging around with some bad people. He definitely was involved some bad shit whether or not he committed murder. Like the movie left out for instance that he was too important things in my mind that he was actually let out first and second trial. And was. Put back in from beating up a girl. And then the other thing is that when they found when they pulled him over. They found either the same gone or bullet casings that were in the murder, his car. So there's a lot of shit was left. It's hard. That's a hard. You know when he got out, he did do a lot of work helping other people, and in fact I'm working now on the case of an innocent guy in Washington state name of. It was convicted of murdering his family and that was the last case at Hurricane Carter actually worked on so I didn't WANNA leave that. Hanging well, I think it's wonderful that he did great things when he got out I mean I don't know if he was guilty or not. Right the way we'll never know now. Right. But I do know that the case there's two sides is not there's not. It's not a clean. I'll give you a better one a better boxing cases Dewey Basell, Oh yeah. Do We Zella credible incredible. This is like who I don't know who has the right I should ask to do but dewey was in jail for what thirty years you worked on that. Yeah. Well, I helped him when he got out what happened was do he was a guy that was framed for a murder in Poughkeepsie? and. He became a legend in prison in the prison boxing system. He was like the prison champion they actually had penal boxing league had thinking at Sing Sing and he was just there he is. So when he when he got out. He did a twenty six years. So he got out, he was fifty four and he fought one pro fight. I saw that Yeah I. Remember that. So what I would do joe's I would try to get. So Berry shot called me and told me about him because he knew my connection a box. So he's fifty four here. Yeah. Fifty four look at him that's insane who. He actually someone who I don't have much respect for put him on his card out here in La I, wanted to mention his name and got at least he did that and they got him one fight. But when Dewey was about to get out Berisha called me and said, listen to you have someone in. New York. AH, pro boxer that we have a meet with would really boost him. So it was the week that he got out I had actually had a at the time I was managing Paulie Molin, Ozzy? And I had Paulie come meet with Dewey. and. Paulie. Was Real enamored with the work I was doing at innocence project and Paulie actually took. Dewey under his wing and we flew him up to polly's rematch with Juan de as. And really got him in the dressing room and got him behind the scenes and it really it really boosted him. He's a special dude, and let's not forget that. Do we when he was in prison met the guy who was convicted of killing to his own son. and. Obviously, he could have destroyed the guy but he forgave him right I mean that's the tight Nicholas back I what you're talking about to an extent Joe Right because here's a guy who's got all the power in the world inside the prison and could obliterate this guy and instead he chose to you know. Keep it moving, and I don't even know where that kind of grace comes from. But I mean I WANNA kill myself. But that's beside the point. One thing I learned from Jay Prince who by the way is probably the Mo the smartest negotiator businessman. He would be a fascinating dude for you to speak to is and up. Yeah. But he he he has taught me that these these trainers really know like like Virgil Hunter for instance Rodger Ward he's like Yoda You know there's this he has no manual Stewart who, yeah manual actually helped me get someone out of prison in Detroit Real Oh man this. This is fucking crazy Emanuel was You Know Matt Emmanuel such a fascinating guy to me. He was like you know there was this quote about him when he died by this guy more Brunell and the Detroit free press, he said. He loved the steak and he would never he. He dined with with pretty women and cops with corrupt politicians and police chiefs. He never could deny someone would their hand out and he used bad language but not in front of women and children manuals like this Detroit slick stir and I never knew the full reach of of his star his bright. Shining Star in Detroit and one night I was a dinner with Barry, sheck he's telling me about this case of this Guy Walter Swift who's in jail or something he didn't do and how he couldn't get the district attorney to pay attention to him. He throws a hell Mary Rodeo. I wrote an article about it in ring magazine article that I'll send you. And he lobs this He loves this question measly no anyone big in Detroit Asset I know Emanuel Steward. He's like worth a shot. So I called the manual a sent him an article about the case and Emmanuel was like he was like like it was his next pro fighter that he was going to groom into a champion. He would not let go this case he wrote a letter to the Parole Board. And I remember calling a manual to tell Emmanuel that Walter was getting out. And there are also two theories floating around because manual new the prosecutor she had been a patron at his restaurant when he had a restaurant in Detroit so he would not accept me not taking him to the exoneration hearing and I remember I got to Detroit in the middle of the night. And Emmanuel insists that I stayed his house. And he goes to the exoneration hearing with me the next day. And it was like women and children and and the bailiffs and the court officers are all coming up. Hey, can I get a picture? Can I give you a hug but We get into the courtroom the judge takes the bench, hits the Gavel, and she looks out into the crowd and she says that Emanuel Steward sitting in my courtroom very first thing she says, and he stands up all all dignified and he's handsome duty said yes your honor. And he said Emanuel he goes it is indeed Emanuel. Steward and I'm here on behalf of Walter. Swift and she said it is a pleasure to have you in my courtroom. And when he sat down I, thought to myself, he really is all that you hear about him in Detroit. And then Walter gets out and he's like shell shocked. And Emmanuel comes up and he grabs his garbage back from him with all his belongings and we get into Emmanuel. Cherry. Red. Mercedes. And I'm thinking to myself this like fucking Shawshank Redemption House and that's how it went down. The Wall to swift got out of jail in Rhode away from the penitentiary and style with. Emanuel. Steward of this is this is something. I've always tried to get. Boxers and maybe you could help with them and may fighters involved I always thought there was something synergistic about the innocence project and wrongful incarcerations because it's a fight to get them out. Well, I think there's a lot of people that know the people wrongfully convicted, but they don't know exactly what to do and they don't know what if anything they can do to help. Yeah. You know and I think one of the things we could do with this podcast is provide some avenues that people can help and I would love to be involved. I would love to help more I'd love to. Whatever cases you have the you think are legitimate. Let's let's get people on. Let's talk about. Let's see whatever I mean. Let's brainstorm see what other ways we can help. Yeah. We'll give you some links to not only whether its petitions signing up for the innocence project newsletter you know keeping your voice out by writing your governor. Parole Board's politicians and you know we can give you various ways that people in their communities can help and I know you're chomping at the bit to talk wrongful incarceration I mean mass incarceration. Yeah and I'm so glad you brought that up joe because there are things that people can do just by making their voices heard and we need everybody because this could happen to you could happen to somebody you love I mean no-one thinks it can until it. Does but it does and it happens all day every day in courtrooms around this country and the prisons are filled with people. You know who who are actually innocent of the crimes for which they were convicted. In fact even you know it's it's interesting. You brought that up because I can't leave out Christina Curl case I'm working on in Vegas of a woman who's been wrongfully accused of shaking her baby to death and I had the top forensic Top expert Berry Shack actually referred me to a guy, randy petty who actually wrote the Book On. Shaken. Baby Syndrome who looked into this case for me and came back and basically what an email saying it is his certainty that nothing was done to this child support child had a brain that was twice the normal size and then suffered from sickle cell as well and those factors are what usually led to his demise and now they want to you know lock her up for the rest of her life or something that she didn't do and she's still with this evidence even. If. They don't know that we know that now I don't think but hopefully, this is going to come out and I think now we have listen we have the Arizona Innocence Project looks like they might get involved. There's she's going to have a wonderful team and if they decide to take it to court I I'm optimistic that justice will be done. Hopefully, we'll head this off at the pass because she's a had thinking about you and they connection I just had to bring that up before we get into the other part. Of the conversation about mass incarceration because at the end of the day, that's the underlying problem with all of this and of course, as Josh said, we will put petitions maybe we can put the links in your bio maybe we can put them on your instagram or whatever. There are a lot of ways for people to help, and even if you want to talk about that Doug, Los Guy was talking about before the honoree this organization, the first seventy two plus if people wanna go to the is just I number seventy two. Plus pl US dot org if you want to donate to help honorees get back on their feet when they're coming out of the system. That's a great way to do it. It's a wonderful organization. They do great work and it's so important that we give these people because even the ones that do get compensation Josh knows better than anyone because he's you know he does civil law as well when the many hats he wears, but the it takes years and they come out two nothing they come out to like world they don't. Know. They don't know they haven't maybe been on the streets for twenty thirty years or more, and the you know the process of getting started again is so so daunting and so if people want to look into their hearts and and help on that level, that's a simple thing you can do but you know go to innocence project dot org that's for sure I mean. Then then there'll be steps you can take their. Of course we'll talk more about that but I did want to touch on mass incarceration as a whole because. At the end of the day. We have a system where we lock people up at a higher rate per capita than any country in the history of the recorded world. It wasn't always like this. In America, our prison population has gone up seven hundred percent in the last thirty, five forty years with no benefit to public safety none and. Every aspect of it is. is is cruel. Every aspect of it is unusual right and no other country does it this way and so when you look at inside the numbers, right we have four point four percent of the world's population but we have twenty five percent of the world's prison population. So why is that like? Worse than other people know do we have a higher crime rate than other countries? No. Is there any benefit to this policy? No does it cost a fortune to keep this thing going US taxpayers everyone's paying for you listening right now you're paying for it. Everyone pays for this bloated. System I'M NOT GONNA call it broken because it works the way it was designed, which is, which is as a lever to control people mostly poor people mostly people of color we lock. The and this this statistic sounds crazy to me even when I say it but I know it's true. We locked black people up in America at six times the rate of South Africa at the height of apartheid. So. We have thirty three percent of the world's female prison population thirty three percent what in the world are we doing and it costs a zillion eighty billion dollars total incarceration more or less budget in this country eighty billion, a huge business and a lot of it is is really a tax on the poor and it functions as a way to keep poor communities poor and desperate, and that's what. It does by over criminalising these people by investing in resources that could actually help those communities but instead cycling them in prison you know inside those numbers Joe, we talked about seven, hundred thousand or potter s every year mostly again, people of color even though they don't use drugs at a higher rate than white people do in fact, the most studies show that they use a metal lower rate. If I tell you how many people are jailed in. America every year and we called his jail. Right and it's important to talk about this now because of covert because now a Harvard study came out yesterday showing that this is a this is a real thing, right? Eleven to twelve million people are arrested and jailed at least for you know period of time in America every year eleven to twelve million and those people forgetting all the other problems with it. In this time of covert, they go in and out and they bring the disease with them as do the people who work inside the jails and prisons right? I mean the the spread in the prisons is well known. Now, of course, it's spreading there's nowhere to social distance in a prison cell or a prison environment. And of course, there's all the workers that go in and out not just the guards. But the you know the religious people the you know the social workers the. People who work in all different aspects of the prison maintenance whatever so. You know. There's I'll I'll stop talking in a second but the fact is there's a guy who I hope. Someday, we'll get to be on your show him Alec Carpet Santus, who's the author of a book called Usual Cruelty, which is like my Bible now, and it is usual cruelty by Hellenic Ailey see carpets on he's got an organization called civil rights car and he's been suing cities and counties all over the country to eliminate cash bail because cash bail is at the root of a lot of these problems. So money bail. Since you know. Thousand years since bail was invented wherever the hell was a long time ago. But bail historically was an unsecured was an unsecured bond right which meant that they they figured out they wanted to charge people if they didn't show up for trial right so but that what that meant is if you were arrested and you're supposed to show up in court if you didn't show up, they would send you a bill right and then in eighteen ninety, nine, it changed and people realize that actually started in San Francisco strangely enough, which is now actually leading the charge in the other direction. But in eighteen ninety nine, they decided to start charging people upfront. So you had to post bail money. To be free until your trial. Now this obviously affected one group of people poor people right because and you know we always see mugshots of celebrities right when they're arrested in there smiling right because their lawyers waiting outside to take them to a lobster dinner or whatever the hell they're gonNa go do. and. What what happened is that soon, enough And Alex taught me a lot of this stuff soon enough. It became clear that this could be an incredible profit center, right that charging people for their own freedom. It's bill you you. You can't afford not to pay but if you can't afford to pay it, you go to jail. So then emerge this bail bonds industry, right which is now a multibillion dollar industry and how that works is if you're poor and you can't afford to post bail for yourself, someone will come along and say if you give me ten percent of the money non-refundable whether you're innocent guilty whether you're charges are dropped in an hour doesn't matter you give me that money I keep it I post the rest, which usually they don't even do. It's just an understanding they have. And you can go home now. If you don't do that think about the consequences, right so you're picked up for anything shoplifting could be mistaken identity could be any crime at all. Any minor thing misdemeanors make up a huge percentage of the population most commonly driving suspended license. That's the most common cause of arrest I think in most places in. America driving on a suspended license. And they're gonNA put you in a jail cell going deprive you of contact with your family, your ability to work of your ability to take a walk of your ability to avoid violence that may occur to you when you're in that cell of all different types. And you're very like very life will be at risk and so. If. You don't if you don't have the money to avoid that, you're now going to be subjected to being in jail. We have about four hundred, fifty, thousand people in jail in America right now as we're sitting here. We don't know if they did anything we're not. They haven't been dried eighty percent of people in jail have never bitten had a trial yet and they sit there for a week a month a year several years awaiting trial, and that's why most of them will plead guilty within about three point two days is the average time with someone will plead guilty if they're in jail, where's if they're out and think about this too right. If you're out, you don't plead guilty you wait and you have your day in court. And it also deprives you of the ability to defend yourself. Right. So let's say you're accused of attacking somebody right and beating somebody whatever. Whatever it might be. Right. And you're in jail because you can't post bail you can't meet with your lawyer. They don't have time to come visit you in jail you can't get them on the phone readily you can't take your lawyer to the scene of the crime to show that it couldn't. You couldn't have been there because whatever the witness couldn't have seen you because the lights or whatever it is. You have no ability to mount an effective defense. If you're in jail, which is why ninety six, ninety, seven percent of up for now, and we're talking felonies but ninety six or seven of felonies a conviction this country, a result of guilty pleas because people realize they can't fight it and they can't afford to sit in jail because they could lose their job. They could lose their home they could lose their family if they don't if they don't either either put up the money which they don't have. Or or plead guilty. So this is this is a problem that is being addressed like I said Alec One has been winning lawsuits all over the country because it's a violation of the six and the fourteenth amendment you can't call it equal protection if two different people are charged with the exact same thing but the one with money goes home the without money goes to jail. That is such a beautiful way to put it in. So clear because I've been seeing people talk about. Different progressives that want to get rid of cash bail and how ridiculous that is. and. What you're saying makes total sense and I've never seen it laid out like that before. And I didn't know that there were that many people that are in jail for things and they can't post bail because they don't have the money, and so they just have to wait for trial and what percentage of them did you say what percentage of them are are, what what percentage of people to get arrested can't post bail I? Don't actually know that a percentage, but I think it's it's very high because most people don't have I mean. Look. At most Americans don't have more than four hundred dollars in free cash out and watch how this works. If you ever WanNa be if he ever really want to see the inequities here and see how the system is. So fucked up go sit you could do it obviously not now. But when when the world resume some sense of normalcy, go to any criminal court and watch the arraignments right and if you watch the arraignments you will see. They parade in all of the arrestees of the last twenty, four hours. And they read their charges. And they will then set bail they'll make a decision on bail your you'll notice two or three things one you'll notice that the vast majority of people in any certainly in any urban jurisdiction in any big city or people of Color. And I sat recently watching this happened in Tampa, Florida? Because I was working on the James Daily case and they did arraignments before my hearing. And I sat with a bunch of public defenders and I listened to them wince every time someone of color young person of color was brought in driving on a suspended license possession of marijuana possession of hydro cone without a prescription and they set their bail, thousand, ten, thousand, seven thousand, and they would say, well, that person's GonNa get out or they say if you don't want to let you out. But if you don't pay a fine of fifteen, hundred dollars within sixty days, you're back in, oh, he'll be back in I'll be representing him again in you watch as Jason put this machine. And you watch how these people of color are treated very differently from white defendants. And you you can just assess based on the fact that the judge will say, do you currently have a job? No were you living while I don't know I'm going to stay on someone's couch and you start to quickly be able to do the computation, your my word, they coming up with a thousand dollars or five hundred dollars, and then they will re offend an end up right back where they were and what will really be striking to is that I would I would venture to say in the high eighties in terms of percentage. These people what they really need is help with an addiction, and if we put a third of the money that we spend incarcerating people keeping them incarcerated. On drug and alcohol rehabilitation. The incarceration rate would plummet. And the recidivism rate you know people re-offending would plummet and not only we don't have to hypothesize that's in fact what happens it happens in countries that. decriminalize drugs and happens in countries where there's not such an emphasis on jailing people and there's more of an emphasis on getting him help and to answer your question. Georgia's looked it up because this is going to quote from the Book Usual Cruelty again by Alec, car cuts on. Between Eighty and ninety percent of the people charged with crimes are so poor that they cannot afford a lawyer twenty, five years into American incarceration boom black people were incarcerated rates six times that of south. Africa during apartheid, the incarceration rate for black people in the nation's capital where I live is nineteen times that of white people and it's it's still goes on every day and the net benefit. This is well, there is no net benefit to society. In fact, has been proven University of Pennsylvania Transcend did a study that showed the people they. Studied people who were jailed or freed for the exact same crime under the same circumstances. Right and this one posted bail out one couldn't, and they found that the people who went to jail even if I little as a few days, we're forty percent more likely to be arrested for another felony ensuing year. So because their lives fall apart while they're in jail and then you know like I said, they lose their job you can't just not show up for work for a few days and be like I was in jail you know so you know. If I could I'm just GonNa read the first paragraph of the book because this really I think puts them in stark contrast. Book the book is called usual cruelty. BY ALEC CAR CUTS ON US which is K. R. A. K. A. AT SAS kind of a tongue twister. And so the book starts off on. January twenty six, two, thousand, fourteen charnel. Mitchell was sitting on her couch with her one year old daughter on her lap and her four-year-old Sunders side. Armed goverment agents entered her home. Put her in metal restraints took her from her children at bought her to the Montgomery. County. Montgomery city jail. Jail Staff So turn the page jail staff told shore Nell that she owed the city money for old traffic tickets. The city had privatized the collection of her debts to a for profit probation company which had sought a warrant for her arrest. I happen to be sitting in the courtroom on the morning show was brought to court along with dozens of other people who had been jailed because they owed the city money. The judge demanded that Chanel pay or stay in jail if she could not pay you be kept in a cage until she quotes, sat out her debts at fifty dollars per day or seventy five dollars per day is she agreed to clean the courthouse bathrooms and the feces blood and mucus from the jail walls an hour later in a windowless cell Chanel told me that a jail guard had given her a pencil and she showed me the crumpled court document on the back of which she had calculated how many more weeks of forced labour separated her from her children that day she became my first client has a civil rights lawyer. So you know, that's that's really you know we have this mythology in America that the people in jails are bad people. A lot of them were there just because they're poor there's no other reason that are now Mitchell or all these other people are there except they couldn't pay their traffic tickets and what are you? You know we talked about single parents. What do you do your single parent? You have a choice between feeding your kids are paying a traffic ticket or whatever it might be. These are not bad people and the idea that we send a like a more or less like SWAT team to the home of this woman to pull her away from her kids. What kind of planet is is there where that's okay. But it's it happens. In darkness, right, it doesn't. We don't see that right now there's all this wariness being brought to. George Floyd and the rest of this stuff, which is really important and I'm so glad that it's coming to light and people are starting to you know really rise up as one right as as one group as humans not as black people or white people or or any other kinds of people but together. But this stuff happens under under the shade of darkness where we don't see we don't see what happens in the jails and prisons. But what happens there in Harris County where Alec one the suit recently and now this did a wonderful piece on this but. About Twenty people year die in the Harris County jail awaiting trial right there either murdered or something Sanjay Bland died in that jail right and You know we we have to just fucking stop I mean this is this is i. It it's it's unconscionable to me. We have we have seventy million people under the control of the criminal justice system. We have more black people incarcerated right now under control the system than we ever had enslaved in any time in US history Jesus Christ. What is that? It's crazy the and the amount of human potential that's lost I it it it boggles. My mind. There's probably another Lennox Lewis could have been right. There's another Jay Z. in there. Somewhere I asked meek mill when he was on my podcast wrongful conviction I said how many guys were did you meet jail who could have been another you and he said I can't even tell you he goes so many talented people in there that just you know. Yeah I mean so. That's the and I think that that is part of the reason why wrongful conviction happened because the system is so over-burdened there's so many cases the court cannot possibly function correctly when there's this much churn and people just become processed people become numbers to be processed in and out of the system these cases in Texas, we're taking about five seconds the bail hearings five to six seconds. You weren't allowed a lawyer going allowed to say anything in your defense on, you've got to watch the weight happens Joe you'll watch. And it's all video all recorded so We were in fact, we were watching it before we came in where a judge will say here, your charges your to answer me yes or no do you want a court appointed lawyer Yeah. Again you're going to answer me yes or no I just said, yeah. No I WANNA. Yes or no Yes we'll when I asked you. Yes or no what didn't you understand about that? Well, I said Yeah. Now. Your bills doubled two thousand dollars. You know they fuck with people these white judges or fucking with people of Color Lead. They don't matter and you know it's interesting because you probably sitting here thinking. So overwhelming. It is it's overwhelming. What the fuck can be done about it. What can we do about it? But we have no choice but to fight back and mobilize and whether that means you know. Putting pressure on local politicians or dare I, say run for office yourself. We need people that care. We need people that will speak truth to power by standing up for the people that are being oppressed in this country as Cliche as that sounds you know you're you're sitting here horrified by few stories you know each one is more heartbreaking than the next when you actually see how it works in action and you live it would these people You know it changes you it fundamentally changes us a human being. I can only imagine I mean I've never heard it laid out as well as you guys were laying it out and I think most people listening to this probably are going to agree they they they knew but they didn't know you know and. It leaves you with this overwhelming feeling of. Of helplessness like. Besides running for office, what can be done I mean we obviously need to change some laws we obviously need to first of all. The conviction and arrest people for nonviolent drug offenses is fucking insane. It's insane and it's a giant part of the entire problem the fact that you can arrest people for traffic tickets and leave them in a cage separate them from their children. That's fucking insane with all these things are immoral. The fact that we're supposed to be the shining beacon of of. Of Democracy and civilisation in this country to joke when you look at our criminal justice system as you guys have laid it out, I, don't want you to feel helpless though and I. Don't want your listeners feel helpless and here's why the way that I when I start to feel that way and I do sometimes. I started thinking of the. The strength that you have to have. To, survive an ordeal like John Restivo or Clemente Jerry or do we basell or the countless other people that we've talked about it is beyond belief to be accused of something you didn't do but to survive in conditions that. Popularized by movies, but the worst thing that could happen you in jail often happen to these people and to have the resolve. And not be helpless at some point. You overcome that helplessness than I. Think it's in all of us to do something that path is different for different people not everybody is going to go out and be a civil rights lawyer or criminal justice reform advocate but there is something that all of us can do politicians don't like to be embarrassed. So whether that is writing an op Ed writing to your local politician calling the newspapers like on the first episode wrongful conviction junk science I say look. Many of you are thinking, what can you do? One thing you can do is, for instance, just dealing with forensic science is. Write letters to your local criminal court judges find out who they are. You can look online and send them articles about the junk science of Bite Mark Evidence. They're out there. Is there fear or their reluctance to change the fact that there are so many cases where that was how they got convicted? That's part of this junk science. Did they would have to revisit these case that's part of it. Part of it is also our laziness in local elections as voters in in many states, state court judges are elected. So a lot of them are not qualified. And you know. What is the answer to that bigger problem but I think part of it is fear of bucking the system. But one thing we do know people act differently. If they know that they're going to be embarrassed exposed the reason why the judge Clementi's case that I told you about that was the judge that wouldn't recuse herself in the Trayvon Martin case even though her husband had represented George Zimmerman prior. She had to get outed and the press to write about it and she got publicly embarrassed into being accused in my case with Clementi the same thing the paper started covering it and picking it up and she finally had to give in. So it might be an uphill a steep of climb, but we can either take it. Right we could either lay down and take it or get up and fight, and there's something that all of us can do and I and I can tell you joe I have seen, and when I say that it transformed me as a human being. You know. I watched the pride of my ten year old daughter, my eight year old son. Four year old doesn't get it yet and say, my dad stands up for people. You Know My dad helped save his life and to watch them you know these people become parts of our family. I'm telling you man you vibrate to just to know that you physically saved a life. There is no more gratifying thing in the world. No sporting event. You know no cheap thrill at a club out with your friends drinking or you know whatever it is they get your rocks off I can tell you that if you have warm blood in your body, the reason why wrongful convictions and exonerations are so popular as a genre on podcasts or and movies because it is that exhilarating to be able I think that it taps into the best part of who human beings really because I think that we are fundamentally. In many ways. even know we love to We love to. we sort of celebrate people's downfall that's also intrinsic in human beings. For some odd reason, we celebrate disasters but we also intrinsically in all of us to celebrate the triumph of the human soul really is and I and I feel like the reason that evokes that in us because that is in us and you know. You you will never find more gratification and being able to look in someone's eyes and say I helped save his or her life, and if forms a bond that is not comparable to money or or you know any kind of material gain, it is just it is. It is the human experience on the most fundamental level and the best part of the human experience. So you know your listeners were. What. Can I do? We could never list all of the ways but we I think we've given some ideas and we would strongly encourage a mean never know what one letter will do. Clemente Gary wrote seventy four letters when he was on death row too wild fucking people Oprah Oprah Sally Jesse re defunct talk show host Maury, Povich Sally Jesse Raphael, and only one person answered the innocence project not to pat us on the back but you know you can write one letter, and if a catches use the right person's attention, you can change a life I got another thing vote because voting you know in local races especially local Da's races local judges. Races. So few people vote that your vote literally could be the deciding factor and it will have a ripple effect. If they know that you're gonNa vote for judges and for prosecutors do the right thing who want actual justice and not just to win at all costs like you said before Joe then that is going to make a huge difference. You know Jason Bodine, just one in Francisco by a very tiny margin less less than one percent he has d.. Car Serrated. San Francisco by over fifty percent in less than six months with no, no spike in crime. No nothing right and so the fact is another people needed to be. In the first place. He's refusing to prosecute these low level nick crimes that don't need to be prosecuted people that need help who need a society, give them a lift up not to brutalize them and put them through this this this miserable system Co. to go to F am Dot Org Families Against. Mandatory. F. A. M. Dot Org go to I seventy two plus if you want to donate to that, go to drug policy alliance. Dot Org it's an organization I've been on the board of forever that's fighting leading the what I call it a war against the drug war and and is doing such amazing work to help to take away now, the the the the legal penalties, but also the stigma associated with drugs and don't forget like in even the presidential. Race. Right. Over twenty percent of federal judges now have been appointed by trump and most of those judges the overwhelming majority of those are exactly the ones that we are sitting here talking about they're the ones that we don't want on the bench because they could victimized. So many more people many of them have been judged unanimously unqualified by the American Bar Association and they're appointing these Republicans are reporting these judges to lifetime tenures. In places where they're going to be. Going to see hundreds or thousands of cases. So if you don't think your vote matters in the presidential election, if all you care about, you know if none of that other stuff interests you, it should interest you and for the sake of your yourself, your friends, your loved ones, your children, those judges are going to do a tremendous amount of damage. Hey, Joe, bring Auburn. This right I'm GonNa Bring this full Circle Watch this. I remember seeing comedy bit that you did it must have been like. Two thousand. And you said Two things were supposed to happen by now policy supposed to be legal when we were all supposed to have jet packs, I remember that did really well. So, my hope is that in ten years or five years or seven years that we come back and you say, well. Another thing was supposed to happen by now it's either happened or beginning to happen. We were supposed decriminalize you know low level drug offenses or we were supposed to change this bullshit about prosecutors and being an cops having immunity right We're starting to see that with cops I can guarantee you that have prosecutors knew that they were reprecussions right that there were repercussions the hiding evidence. Okay and not turning it over to the defense it happened one Kamala Harris cases wasn't it one of her cases where the crime lab? That wasn't her case where the crime lab had descended DNA and I'll know was in California where the crime lab. Sees that the DNA doesn't match talking about Anthony a part of it and I'm glad you brought this up. So we're the cry. You can tell the story in a second, but the crime lab, not the prosecute a crime lab technician says, you know what is wrong? This DNA doesn't match the defendant and on sending it to the defense counsel and what happens is that he gets put back I. He gets out because they realize have the wrong. Guy But. He gets put back on death row because he got he obtained the evidence illegally because it wasn't. So hold on you can tell the story in the second but a my hope is that we we start to beat back against the system so that we can come back on here wherever you are whether it's on a podcast or the your next bit or maybe you'll have a talk show at that point and say you know what? We. Already have one. And you. We lit a match here today I think we did I really do please tell the store real quick. So Anthony upon a visual and again in another thing gonNA shamelessly plugging my instagram it's it's Jason Flom because I post about this stuff all the time and I'll give people trucks. For sure in my instagram. So Anthony upon which this story is just even by my standards absolutely buck in mind blowing right anthony upon which was wrongfully convicted in Ohio and sentenced to death. He's on death row in Ohio for thirty five years. When what happened happened right? The state finally tested the DNA. Didn't exist. So the test came back and showed that he did not commit this crime. So they withheld that from the defense. So there he is on death row state knows he's innocent they they may have known all along I don't know. But somebody I think it was a crime lab technician. Whoever was some whistle blower? If you WANNA call it sent that evidence that defense. Now the first time we've heard that kind of story. He gets out. He's out for seventeen months. He's a grandfather he's a mean the is terrific. To, fall in love them you want to have them on the Bam show and. He's sitting on the lawn with his grandchildren. One day SWAT team shows up and arrests them again. The state appealed his reversal saying. that. Only, he technically only he was allowed to request his DNA something in Ohio law right the the person who was wrongfully or is appealing their conviction has to request the DNA themselves. So they said that since they requested the DNA, he couldn't use it in his appeal which technically was correct and so the vapor saying you should have requested the DNA that we told you doesn't exist. And since you didn't, we're taking it to the higher court and the higher court was left with no choice but the FA I mean, I guess they had no choice. They followed the letter of the law and sent him right back to death row, which is where he is right now has the worst sitting here. Anthony upon which. fucking believable. Yeah I mean, and that's our. That's our system at worst. I mean we're Josh both involved in the case of an Richard Midkiff down in Florida who is who is the the prosecutor? WHO's the judge who are these people on the upon which case I'll have to get you that information or maybe Jamie can find it but it's Anthony upon AP A. N. O., V. I T. H. and I know it's Ohio but I don't remember. Sick, it's so says they know he's innocent he's. Is Science DNA and happened it happened and it happens in a lot of cases. Hurry say that name Hobo Cuyahoga County Prosecutor Bill Manson. Let's let that looks sorry that looks like the original has confirmed through conclusive scientific evidence to death row inmate Anthony upon brutally raped and murdered Marianne planned in nineteen. Thousand. All. That is that's the article where they I got this updated Oh updated July twenty six. Th, what what is updated? Got Because here is July Twenty six, twenty twenty. So confirms the guilt. DNA confirms guilt there is. This judge. July twenty fourth yet. Judge Sends Cleveland Man Okay here goes. Common Pleas Court judge on Tuesday rejected and imprisoned Cleveland Man's challenged who's nineteen eighty-four conviction nineteen eighty-four Jesus fucking cross and death sentence in the raping and killing of a nurse Judge Robert mcclelland. Sent Anthony upon which back to death row after Ohio Supreme Court last year reverses two thousand fifteen decision granting upon which a new trial based on new DNA tests. McClellan, and a five page opinion expressed dismay that upon which was sentenced to death based solely on circumstantial evidence presented during a trial that took place just five days after the crime and noted that the record of the case against the pontiff which was troubling. So what the fuck is difficult to be the end of the line cloned wrote. Legal precedent and prior court rulings leave this court with no option. Then to deny the motion for new trial on the basis that the defendant is unable to show a strong possibility that a new trial would end in a different result. Prosecutor Michael Molly said in a statement through a spokesperson upon which belongs on death row. The Gamesmanship has gone for too long o'malley said putting him back on death row ends the agony of years of litigation that has tortured the victim's family. Upon of inches appellate attorney Mark Devan. Did, not, immediately, return a request for comment Wednesday. Fuck? Tactic, it's a technicality that's what it is and If he can't use the DNA than he can't he probably can't ineffective Defense Josh gets speech that better than I can. Yeah. I mean look there's all sorts of roadblocks courts throw up where you know you have to bring new evidence within a certain timeframe and there's just these paralyzing. outs he was out. Richard. Old. Man Oh. My God. I. Mean. He was in for thirty five years. He's not a young guy. Crisis so sick and you didn't do anything. It's Yeah. It's listen because of this conversation we've had. Millions and millions and millions of people are going to be aware of this that weren't aware of it before. What's the best place for them to start? Is it? What does the innocence project's Website Innocence Project Dot Org not the Innocence Project Purchase Innocence Project DOT ORG and Jason and I post about this all the time at Dubin. DB. I N. Dot Josh at Duman Dot Johnson Jason's at Jackson Flom. but innocence project. Dot Org has great resources for how to get involved. Right? We have like as you see, we have purvis pains, pfeiffer innocence, add your name to a petition. You can donate you. Can you know get yourself educated about what's going on in your community as Jason said, our policy group headed by Rebecca Brown on just fantastic. So we would say this is great starting point. Well, we're going to send people to the starting point and we're going to keep the word out and whatever you need if you need more podcasts like this if you need. Social Media Help if you need whatever you need all of it in love to I'm happy to help I love. Sorry guys I would love to bring one of our clients on the show at some. So they can talk about the person you know and I can't leave out one other person I didn't mention. But who I want to send love to is Michelle Murphy who was wrongly convicted of murdering her own baby in Oklahoma and served twenty years the life sentence. The judge at her when her when her conviction was reversed. The judge said through tears that it was the worst miscarriage of justice. He'd ever seen another person we should mention by the way is whose case is still going on people can make a difference James Daly James Daly has been on death row in Florida for thirty three years for murder. He didn't commit his defendant. The real murder has confessed. He confessed to me he confessed to me that he did it. He told me why he implicate he implicated my client James Daily and we we could really use people I mean here's a situation where the governor of Florida Rhonda Santa's has the ability to call a clemency hearing in grant James Daly clemency at least to hear his case. And he they've basically communicated to me the governor's office that if he doesn't show contrition. That it's not going to go well for him. So think about the catch twenty two, they put me in as his lawyer and him in. For a crime, he didn't commit to it someone else's confess to time and time again, twenty twenty is airing a whole special about the case, my representation of him in October. We could use people writing letters to the governor, Ronda Sant of Florida to grant James Daily Clemency hearing think about what I'm asking for right now. I'm asking for governor. To exercise his power. To just listen. It's difficult to just get a hearing just to listen this other man has. Confessed to. Inmates he's confessed to his. Friends, he's confessed to me, and then what he does is he goes into court and changes his mind and says I. Want to talk about this because every time he confesses his family reads about it in the paper. Then call him. I have recorded prison calls where they're saying what did you do? Why did you confess? We've been telling people you didn't do this now we can never say that anymore your son will never come visit you again and then he changes at pack. All of the evidence, the physical evidence leads to him he's confessed yet. My client sits on death row for thirty three years for a crime. He didn't commit the governor has the power listened his case the clemency scheme in Florida is is Rhonda. Santa's has the of the ability in the power to make it less of a joke than it's been but they don't even hear cases of death row. Prisoners. They don't even hear him. And the last word on Michelle Murphy and then we'll wrap up because I know that you probably have sent in other parts of your life you. Know exactly I'm Michelle Murphy's case in this this touches on a number things we talked about. Michelle Murphy. Even. At her original hearing the judge called all lawyers into his chambers and said. There was a kid in the courtroom who is the witness against her it was a next door neighbor kit and the judge says how come the kid doesn't have a lawyer and the the prosecutor says because he's not a suspect your honor, he's a witness and the judge says, are you the only person here that doesn't know he's the real killer. And of course, that was the case with that kid killed himself before the trial and he was never able to be put on the stand about Michelle more importantly through twenty years of a life sentence he was exonerated fully exonerated with DNA. And here it is five six years later and she hasn't gotten a dollar from the state and they've fought. Tooth and nail any compensation for her and if not for people like. The first seventy, two plus and other you know other hearted people would be on the streets. I mean. It's just a it's it's shock. Everyone's conscience. The world needs more people like you guys. Thank you. This country needs more people like you guys what are you doing amazing It's been an honor to have you on I. Appreciate you very very much and again, whatever I can do to help Joe. Thank you for having us if. We're tapping in I'm in I'm in. Thank you very much. Bye Everybody. Thank you friends for tune into the show and thanks to our sponsors. Thank you to. Go, to hello to she dot com slash Rogan and get ten percent off your order and free shipping is only seventy nine bucks and it's so much better than toilet paper. Go to hello she dot com slash rogue and again you get ten percent off your order and free shipping. Thank you. Also to butcher box butcher box and they're fantastic high-quality humanely raise meet that you can trust one hundred percent grass fed grass finished beef free range, organic chicken, heritage breed pork, and wild caught seafood delivered directly to your door. Go to butcher box, dot com slash rogue, and the wait is over butcher boxes. Now, welcoming new members and you can sign up today at butcher box dot com slash rogue into get high quality humanely raised meat delivered directly to your door that's butcher box dot com slash Rogan thank you also to the motherfucking cash APP download the cash APP from the APP store or the Google play store today and when you do down though the cash APP make sure you enter the referral Code Joe Rogan all one word you will receive Ten dollars in cash apple also intend to our good friend, Justin Rennes fight for the forgotten charity building wells for the pygmies in the Congo. Thank you also to whoop the best damn fitness tracker on planet Earth and in the known universe and for the listeners, this podcast whoop is going to hook you up with fifteen percent off with the code Rogan at checkout. Go Whoop. That's W. H. O. P. Dot Com enter the code Rogan at checkout and save fifteen percent sleep better recover faster and train smarter optimize your performance with whoop. Thank you friends thank you. There was a rough one, right It's hard to get through. but important, and we're going to do a lot more work with these guys. I'm very excited about that and we'll have a lot more people that they recommend on and hopefully we can. We can do some good and make some change. So thank you to Josh, Dugan, thank you to Jason Flom and thank you all of you listened much luck by.

Florida Jason Joe Josh Dubin prosecutor Joe Rogan America murder New York attorney Clementi cocaine Mexico Julius Jones Julius Robin Hood Shorty Clemente Trayvon Martin chairman and CEO
Denial is Not Just a River in Egypt | How to Avoid Paralysis by Over Analysis and Denial

Thrivetime Show | Business School without the BS

50:39 min | Last month

Denial is Not Just a River in Egypt | How to Avoid Paralysis by Over Analysis and Denial

"Andrew argue are you prepared to climb. I'm so ready okay. Let me go hit. The dial technology looks call up right now. All excited about this interview with matt. Klein met coin. Welcome onto the thrive time. Show right my friend. You sound like you're looking terrific. How are things going in denver day. Where island you know by the beard and his hair go my head very closely that a proportionate about three and a half days so i gotta keep this up trimmed. Well matt on today's show. We're talking about denial. How dangerous it can be as a business owner to deny the facts and refused to act even once once. You've gathered the axa man. what is your take on. Denial clementi era there on many here. Your mattress lose you re okay scrapped are there. There's some yellen office over here. So i couldn't hear it. Oh no prophet john. Meet for some shows. Don't need a celebrity narrator to introduce this show this show too men. Eight kids co created by two different women. Thirteen multi million dollar businesses. Ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to thrive time. Shaw the yes. Yes yes yes kind is on the phone line. How are you sir. I'm doing awesome. Are you guys dude. I'm fired up to talk to you in an andrew. I'm looking at a note here from andrew. He's on the show today. Taken a show notes on andrew on today's show you don't have to take any notes. We will present in the moment here on here but before we called you. He was talking about what proportionate head you have. Your cranium was directly proportionate and senator keith. You talk about this more andrew place. Yeah i mean it's just it's not too often where someone has a head that's proportional to the rest of their body and i was just Complimenting you without you present so plays now shed that light on the situation. Honest to god one hundred percent true just happened it did just going andrew. Who are we to hold back a verbal gift. There's a lot of men running around going. On my lopsided. There are not one of those men. I thought i'd bring it up. Okay so now me at a day where island this the beard and his hair go. My head gets very closely. It's not a proportionate about three and a half day so i gotta keep this up trimmed. Oh what they caught me on. You caught on a good day. Oh man well. here's what we're talking about. We're talking about matt clients proportionate cranium and we also are talking about this problem of paralysis from analysis. It's where somebody gets the facts and they won't ever act. It's where you give them a gun. You load the gun. The figurative gun the entrepreneurship gun and they do ready. Aim aim aim and then they go get a book about praying for success or a book about how to be successful or how to make your life less stressful and then they watch ted talks and then ready aim a and then they go to a seminar and then matt you know then they go to another chamber of commerce event and then even though they have all the facts right in front of them even though. You're showing them irrefutable data. they're ready. They aim they aim. The and the and the rhythm of entrepreneurship should be like this. This is the rhythm of entrepreneurship. You define what you think's going to work step one you define act measure refined step on you define what you think is going to work step to you you divine and the new you act step three measure the results and step four then you refine so define act measure refined matt klein. How big a problem is this idea of gathering data and the never acting. Well it's big because if you've gone through the trouble of going and getting all of the facts and all the data for you then to make a decision that should effectively help your business and you do nothing about it. You hurt yourself in variety of ways one you wasted time getting the data secondarily. You don't do anything with it. Then you're right where you started so you shouldn't even looked at the data in the first place right. So why collect the data. You're not going to do something about it if you're not gonna do something about it. Sell your business. Because you're just wasting your time andrew. You work with a lot of adults who are a forty-five true fifty. And i'm going to think of a client that i had years ago. I won't give any more details. I'll just say they were not in the state of oklahoma there in the medical industry. And every week i would tell this person person we have a weekly call at say ten him and every week this individual would be between thirty five and forty minutes late to the meeting and every meeting matt he would would tell the tell. Tell me that he could staff can't find good staff and i would say well. Hey you know it's really important for your weekly staff meeting that you're on time and that you do the following three activities every week so one you need to do the group interview to you. Need to have daily huddles and three. You need to have a weekly leadership meetings. The group interview a daily huddle and a leadership meeting And every week he thirty five to thirty seven minutes late would call me and say oh clay. You wouldn't believe the staff from. I had today all my good people quit and then i would say matt i would say did you do your weekly group interview and he would say no. I got busy. I was very busy okay. Did you do the daily check in calls no no. I didn't get a chance because the employees and i got this problem. Did you start your leadership meeting on time or cancelled altogether. Well yeah but i would say. What data do you have to show me that interviewing people every week is absolutely needed. Could you show me some data. Matt he would say you show me some data cement i would go through the charade of showing him the forbes data and andrew can find a link to it real quick the forbes data that would show how long somebody stays at job. Matt i would show them the stats that shows. The average person who's like a technician level is only going to stay at a job about a year or two maximum. And and then. I'd show it to him and he still wouldn't do the group interview. Can you relate to that at all. mad. I mean is is. Am i in a foreign land here. Where i deal with people that want to gather data act as it unique to me. Have you seen this before. What kind of situations could this be common in the world of franchising business ownership and general store. Well i think people ignore the data because they've talked themselves into situation. I'm certainly i have done that. I with technicians. Before i literally had to sit myself down because i was so worried that one of my so. Let me backtrack. I wasn't state of mind where i talked myself into. My employees could do no wrong. Oh yeah and all. The data showed the exact opposite show that he was stealing jobs. Or cancelling he was doing jobs on the side all these things and because of our relationship. I talked myself out of that being even possible so i look at data. I looked at all my other technician. I at all the people across the country and he was like the worst right. And i talked myself into this person being so good that he could do no wrong but in fact he was actually stealing from me. He was taking jobs. And cancelling them and doing he was doing all the things that are clearly out of day right and so i actually had to go to my team here at ox depression. I say you guys take all this data and come back to me from exactly going. I was going on the internet. I was looking to call in like competitors to see if they were like booking jobs. And cancelling them out of my mind talk about paralysis by analysis. That was me. All i had to do was cook at the information right in front of me and let that makes the decision and an act and fire that person because that person is not there to help my business in fat but i i did right so it took me a few months. Oh good learning thing but then all in my office literally goes. Are you stupid like if you know the answer. You just not letting yourself actually believe it. And so you know. And and so those things happen. It happens with our routing. Right people over out analyze the routing to the point where they have thirty eight zones and a five square area like five mile area where you know so now. They're actually hurting. They're like we can go through all sorts of scenario but there's one thing about ballo the data be able to collect it. Use it to your advantage and then make managerial decisions. That will help your business. Just the data does not lie to allah's not lie andrew want to do is i'm going to tee up a scenario that i have experienced having clients since two thousand seven. My whole thing is we don't want more than one hundred and sixty clients and met. You got a chance to meet probably a third of them at the workshop. You know so i don't. I'm not in a growth phase if that makes any sense i'm not trying to oxy fresh. I mean you guys have four hundred locations and you guys are growing so your situation's a little bit different mind. I've i've kind of got to a place. Where all. My clients are very doable. Executed action driven people. I don't have to sit there and argue with my clients. They do their stuff. But i have some stories from back in the past. And i'm gonna bring them up and you can tell me if you can ever relate to this or have seen this kind of thing. Yeah one is the client who won't install call recording because they don't want to know what their people are actually saying and then there are people that they don't want to know the people that they don't wanna no matter what they're saying they don't want to know what the person is saying who answered the phone because that person is their son or that person is their daughter or that person is your best friend from college so the person answering their phone the person causing them poverty is their closest of kin. Have you ever seen this situation andrew. Oh yeah no. It happens quite often and it's something people try to avoid is the hard conversations of the hard conversations are super important to have and something like that you want to have it before you even get to that spot so you wanna you wanna pre the conversations before you need to have the hard conversations so This is something that i see very often often very often madame. You've been screwed by somebody that you know and liked. Oh yeah many times actually. I don't go down the friends and family route because by nature. If you're a good kind hearted family person you're gonna give them the benefit of the doubt and that is a It is a tough situation. All the way around it's been burned by so call. Recording is the first area where i find people. They don't want to get the data and if they get the data they don't wanna listen to the calls because then they would actually have to know so that people people just they don't they don't actually pressure mad. If you guys didn't listen to the calls what would happen It would be very hard for us to well. We wouldn't have the ability to actually you know Have any backing to any conversation. That was out of the norm right. So if a customer says hey i actually asked for ten rooms and we're like well the quote says five right. We wouldn't have any backing to say well. You didn't bryce allows us to actually have real data for the for the technician in the home to say. Actually we record our calls. Let me make sure that i'm not wrong. And so shut that problem down right there before it becomes a situation where your company being taken advantage of or we can go in there if we don't record calls there's any mistake that ever on the phone which happens right. We're talking about people talking to people there's mistakes there's actually times where you might put a seven instead of four into an address if you don't have the ability to go and just look at that then you're making it hard on the customer doing call. We can just listen to them. Make sure all the information's right where needs to be. Make sure the information that goes to the technician. That's doing the job as appropriate. You just eliminate so many possibilities. That could go wrong. If you don't record calls you can't train you can't require you can't do any type of managerial upgrades to your business. If you don't know what you're actually managing it gets worse. We're talking about this whole idea of of analysis through Paralysis through analysis. This idea of fighting through this paralysis. That many entrepreneurs have they they. They don't want to act. They get all the data. These keep gathering data. They don't act or they don't wanna look at at all. I have found that business owners don't want to track their numbers period. Yep something as simple as how many google reviews. Did you guys get this week matt. I'm sure you've never seen this before. I've seen this with doctors and dentists that nobody within the oxy. Fresh system would ever do this. This is just doctors dentists and lawyers and people that are no longer my current clients. These people they don't want to track they don't want to track. How many reviews they get this week. The ones who don't win don't want to track the winners. Do want to record their calls. The winners want to record their calls. The whiners do not the winners want to track their numbers and the weiner's do not met. Why do people don't want not want to track. How many reviews their team. God or or didn't get I think denial is a huge part of bad businesses Right it's easier to not no one of your employees that you think it's awesome isn't it might suck to go through the process of trying to reevaluate your business and maybe implement some change that you know down the road but at the moment it's going to be painful but i think the nile those types of things Just like you guys just mentioned right. You don't wanna listen to your sons call or your family members call because they might not be great and if you listen to it then you have to. If if if you just completely ignore it then you can just you know claim ignorance. You don't have to do anything about it. But those types of things as they linger right and as your company grows then. That person is probably going to train other people in very bad behavior. Then you get into a situation where you can't go back right you are so far beyond because whoever's training the other people are doing it wrong and you never nipped it right in the beginning so now you're in a very bad problem. I mean you have to at least look at the data and know if you don't want to do anything about it you're just admitting failure and you're okay with that but if you're gonna ignore everything in your business you should probably go get a job. Oh man you don't met. You said this. I think i did you just say. Denial is not just a revolt in egypt. Denial is not just a river in egypt. It is not just ribbon. Egypt major problem small. I find it all the time. I find this all the time i love. I love having declined. Denial is not just in. Denial is not just in egypt. It so important for everyone to understand that. Write that down. Denial is not just the river in egypt. It is so important. It is so important that we write this down. Why because if you can't face the truth and know what is actually happening. You can't improve it if you don't know what's going on. You can improve it but once you know what's going on. You got to make some changes and to quote tim. Ferriss the chart-topping podcast. Her investor entrepreneur bestselling author guy. He's says a person's life is a person. Success in life can usually be measured by the number of uncomfortable conversations. He or she is willing to have so i'm going to do is. I'm going to have an uncomfortable conversation with some listeners. Out there right now and hopefully we work through this together. I am not an entertainer so this show is to help you. grow your compensation. This show is not a show just to learn general education. Some people listened to the shit. Listen to shows podcasts. And they say. Now i love the show. It's great you know sometimes does funny voices and has down to facts and he gets all buttons all time and that's why it's awesome. Slams goes on rant. And i get upset and i m in my car and listen. Listen it's why keep looking at my arash. it's gross. But i want to keep looking at it. I get off my show. Stop it we need to do is you've got to listen to the show implement. And that's why conference met you saw. How many people did you see. Get up there and share how. They doubled the size of their business. What did you see that. Doesn't people half a dozen matt. Oh lee and actually the nice thing is. I've talked to people that weren't even on the that. Were you know it was just an environment where people want us to succeed are known was. They're trying to. They're not looking for tip implement. It was a pretty amazing environment where everyone was pretty much on the same page trying to better their current business situation show homes. I talked to them. I saw. I know you saw them speak at the conference. They've been a long time client. I started working with him four years ago almost and they've grown from or three and a half years. They've grown from thirty seven. Million dollars of sales annually to eighty one million last year and january is the slowest month of the year. Last january they did just under three million dollars of sales and they are now over twelve million dollars of sales for this january. These homeboys implement everything. Let me tell you. What andrew did they want to hear their calls. every day. we listen to the calls every day every day every day now to business owners who are successful. Want to track their numbers they want to now. Three business owners who are successful want to track their conversion percentage matt. Why would you wanna know if your technicians are going to ten houses. You have ten technicians. They all go to ten houses. Why would you want to know who converts the most upsells who has the most. Why would you wanna know those kind of numbers man. Yeah this is a no brainer to me. And this one gets lost in the shuffle. A lot i mean just because you're going and doing jobs doesn't mean you're successful right. You need to be able to understand where your bottom line is because if one technician cost you twenty dollars to go to a hundred dollar job and another technician costs you seventy dollars to go another the job because either behavior or the fact that they're not actually doing the jobs right or their over using product or they're stealing from you. If you don't know those things behaviors in your business. We'll take you to a point where every technician is causing seventy dollars to do one hundred dollar job right. You need to understand your numbers in a way where you can actually see the bottom line. Behaviors will create a bottom line. Reverse really good for your really bad right. Things like time management skills things like managing your marketing budget. Things like going out and making sure that you know how much be used per technician will actually allow you at the end of the year to put more money in your pocket. You don't have those things lockdown. You are guessing. There's never been a successful large businesses that use guessing as a skill. You know matt There's this controversial book that some people read from time to time known as the bible and you don't have to be a christian. Listen to the show but i do like to quote certain bible stories because i feel like they. Demonstrate certain ageless principles and one part of the bible where jesus talked about talking about jesus flipping the tables. It's matthew chapter twenty one versus twelve thirteen and it says jesus entered into the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling their essentially just backstory. Jesus didn't want people turning the church into a place where you buy your way to heaven. You see you did. We do want you selling stuff there. So as jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling their overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling dubs it is written. He said to them. My house will be called a house of prayer but you are making it a den of robbers now. I was reading that verse whereas read in that verse in the engines. Kinda right before. I met you. We had a meeting and in the meeting. We like to track when i ran this particular photography company matt. You're getting married soon right when when when you. What are you getting married july. Nineteen did you already of wedding photographer. you know. Those are questions like an unanswered. Okay well what happens is if you're a wonderful bob. Ride to be here if she booked a photographer. According to the not dot com the average wedding photographer takes right now between three months in six months to get the bride. Her wedding photos back. It's crazy that is very crazy but We had a thing that andrew at epic. How long our that we would promise to. People like matt klein turn around. Yeah turnaround was two weeks two weeks. Does that sound fair. Two weeks that downstairs. So if i told you two weeks when would you expect it. I mean if i told you. Hey we'll get back to you two weeks when you back from the honeymoon. We'll have within two weeks. What would you expect a lot. Hope that you try to go above and beyond and get it to me for two weeks but every week to week at least two weeks okay. So here we go so we had a meeting and this is a true story. And i don't feel bad about this story. By the way thrive nation. This was only about ten years ago. So i don't feel bad about this. I feel good about this. So i was reading this vial versus about flipping tables and i thought well. What's the equivalent. Flip tables and kindle are videography. He's been around editors and photography people and matt. If you've ever worked around a lot of creative people they have a lot of accoutrements. If you can kindle film the man cave creek lot of accoutrements like they have a prized possessions. Like a mug from a town. They went to matt or they'll have like a framed picture you know. They have like quotes that say blast. You can these people right. They wear hats that are recycled and knitted you know. And i said guys we promised. The bride's a two week turnaround time and last week. All of you mailed the photos out late and they go down and we put them in the mail on the day up. they just didn't get it until four days after might not no no so next week. What's going to happen is if you send the photos late if you send them late. Two things are going to happen. Because it's in your pay scale one. Is you get paid half as much as you used to get paid. You get paid two hundred dollars to edit. Someone's wedding photos for about mad. It's about eight hours of work but if you don't do it on time i'm gonna pay minimum wage so you're gonna make like you know seven twenty five an hour versus two hundred bucks for for eight hours so you're going from like thirty bucks an hour to seven hour but not only that. I'm going to break your most important possessions. And they said you're going to break them. I don't know you know whatever that is. You have that mugging. Where'd you get that mug. And it's like i got it from. Italy is important to you. Oh yeah we don't weddings are important. Brides injury no wedding photos are important to brides very important. Yeah the bride's paying us. And i just got chewed out from abroad and i had to apologize. It's my fault. I own the company. And i had to give her a partial refund. You only make a twenty percent profit margin. I had to refund all of that back and somebody's wedding photos are pretty important to them. And somebody's daughter got married to. That's probably important to them and somebody's girlfriend is now their wife. These are all important things so if you are late on your photos next week i'm gonna cut your paid on the minimum wage but i'm also going to break everything that you value and they're going. Oh my gosh on. And so i. The next week came true story and matt they were late now is a manager and as as a manager and is a guy who was level-headed. What do you think that. I should have done at that moment. I tell me monday morning quarterback at your level headed guy. You know very proportional head that you know. What would you do that. Her manager word. You've got to kind of break. So here's what i did. I decided to be a liar. And i said guys. Here's the deal. I'm dropping all your pay minimum wage last week. I'm not gonna break your stuff. Because i'm kind guy dishonest guy but a kind but next week as the sweet lord above is my sanctimony witness i shall break the things. Like jesus flip the tables and down not gonna feel bad so the next week came home at their late. So this one young lady nice lady. I said hey this mug of yours great mug like this mug like this mug. You like the mike the muck i think. It's a great mug. We have here. And i broke it and she you know what else you got is. This is this. A wedding photo is sizzle. We broke it. Oh is this. And they're like they all ran out with their crap. What's interesting is the people who stayed more on An injured you remember what it was like working in a culture where you had to be on time. Yeah like it's great because all your peers and people you're working with are also on time because you've weeded out all the late people. What happens when you change the culture. Not that other companies. Have you change the culture where you get rid of that and you say hey everybody. You're all making the same amount of money even if you're late what could hypothetically happen. The business would probably not exist anymore. You'd go out of business because it would become the new normal. You lower your standards. So the new normal becomes Being late all the time so happy story. You were chick-fil-a i did Chick-fil-a to chick madiba chick-fil-a in denver. Oh yeah on. Chill chill as always busy. They always have a big line around the door. Then popeye's chicken is always confused and scared when a customer shows up. Yeah bob is. The chicken tastes great. It's just like they're always like we should clean the bathrooms for the first time this month. So think about this for a second. Let's think about this for so it chick-fil-a how come their bathrooms are clean all the time. And what kind of crap was going. On at chick-fil-a profound management crap was going on. Why are the bathrooms yelling at chick-fil-a and why did you have a shell gas station out there. In denver. give a shell their matt. Mattie many french we do or those bathrooms kinda gross. Sometimes where they've super clean usually on average. I wish i could give you i. I don't i don't know the lacrima. Why don't you get yourself a tetanus shot and run on run over okay but serious touch everything. So let's talk about this research andrew. Why why we're things done properly chick-fil-a places like quick trip convenience stores and why can they not figure it out at shell so at chick-fil-a the way it works is you have a checklist gets done every morning mid before noontime before the rush comes in at two o'clock and then you have one later in the evening. Then you have close so. It is on the checklist to literally washed the floors night to wipe down in. It's on a checklist in the bathroom. At the chick-fil-a. It's in there and it's like line item how to clean the tile how to clean the toilet how to clean everything to sink had to clean the mirror. The bathrooms are always so clean because one. There's a checklist you have to follow it. We don't work there anymore. And to i mean they stab someone all the time to keep that clean. It is a priority to them. They see that it is valuable and they see that they have that standard and so they had someone like an someone on staff to keep the dining room clean. Keep the bathroom clean. Follow the checklist. And now i want to ask you this matt and you you you make the ethics call on this. I was working with the church. Many many years ago Okay now also not in tulsa and Matt the church services supposed to start at ten. Am and they would always start about ten twenty and the next service is at twelve and therefore the first service never ended till about twelve twenty in every week about five hundred people who are there for the second service would run into five hundred people who there from the first service and the and worship leader couldn't actually sing but he was up there and they wanted me to help them grow the church. And i'm like well guys. Have you watched the praise and worship service recently and they. Yeah why it's bad. It's a bad thing. It's not good and then have you noticed starts late. We'll yeah but clay. Their volunteers can't fire but yet at life. Church one of the fastest growing churches in america with thirty some odd locations. They're not gonna let you work there anymore if you're consistently late met i think it's mean if it's mean to your customers to allow jackass redo agree with that or do you disagree that. It's it's wrong that a mean thing to have to keep hiring bad employees who provide bad service for your good paying customers. Well i think it's It's not very trustworthy. If you have people go out of their way to come to your establishment sounds going to start at noon and it starts at twelve twenty right now. Their whole day is is altered. You might not big at the big deal when you do that. In two hundred people right. You're going to ruffle some feathers and if you keep doing it then you can't really trust. I mean time time management is a pretty easy thing to do that telling me if i'm going to somewhere and you can't do one simple thing of just starting your service on-time boy. What else are you not got the one thing you can do very quickly my managing the moment you get out of bed now. This is interesting. Is that the same church life church and big churches that grow. They always track. How many people actually attended. They would never want to know the number so every week. They're like well. I couldn't really tell. I might just take a photo. Count the empty seats you got with. Nba's and degrees from fancy christian schools. Go i can't figure out the attendants really hard for me to you. Know good point four. Be good business. Owners they want to attract they want to track employees attendants. Who's on time and who's not on done bad business owners. Don't want to track that matt. Why would a bad business owner not wanna keep track of how many times employees or leader in the company did not show up because then they have to do something about it now. It's a task that they have to do to make their business better again. If you're ignorant to or or or you literally just deny the fact that's happening you can justify not making decisions on it Right it's easy for you to do it at that point about this for a second. There thrive nation thinking about this for a second. Do we track employee attendance. Were you in the. Were you injured. The meeting with me recently where. I asked the question if this person was at the meeting. At least half the time but did you did you. Were you at that meeting for elephant room. When i did this week ago in all staff now is just elephant meeting your wife. What wife was and i said. Hey this person are they at work at least half of the time and your wife looks at me. Everyone looks at me and goes because this person. Who has great branding matt you know. There's a beautiful person. Happy person a great guy. Beautiful lady great. Branding like a squirrel. It's like a rat with good branding just a squirrelly personnel and they run around and everyone likes them but they literally only come to work forty five forty five percent of the time. Have you ever seen this phenomenon. The pretty people that get hall passes certainly have. And i would just say that's a i mean in your office i'm asking rob nation. Who in your office. Is that guy. That girl i mean are you. Are you married to who business owners. You don't wanna client satisfaction now mad oxy fresh you guys call clients and make sure they're happy and you just you guys are maniacal about quality control and gathering objective reviews but what what would some people especially this particular church. I'm talking about. They never wanted to call members of their church ever and ask them how the experience was. Why do you think that bad. Churches backed companies bad organizations. Don't want to track that client satisfaction. Same reason i mean you want if you are not interested in knowing what your customers are saying about your business you read. You're already know suck or you are so detached from that business. You don't know that it sucks. Both of those are equally bad by the way because the end of that conversation is always. It's suck right. And i think more often than not people know what their current situation is italy. Don't it is what i hear. People say they'll go. We'll if you call your customers and survey am. I actually heard this last year if you call all your customers in survey them after you do a home remodel. Some of them might be upset. What i mean. Just probably call them the logic of that now. Okay there's there's four areas are three more areas. I want to tackle here about again. This idea denial not just a river in egypt how to avoid paralysis by over analysis. And just flat out denial. People don't want to know the taxes deo matt. My wife run around all the time. You've met my wife. My wife loves paying taxes every time she pays off the taxes. Andrew you've seen this runs around the office talking about how we just bought like one thirtieth of a nuclear missile cone or something or how. We helped build a road or how we paid for library. She's always like we just paid the tax. Oh yes great. America estimated quarterly. Don't we have overpaid might have overpaid. Why would you sit well baby because that way we don't owe anything you that's what we have an accounting. She met why would not want to know. The taxes owed well probably because they didn't save for their taxes. Oh boy well. I'll tell you what this button for that. We just hit that button right there and get yourself beer and drinking before noon and hit this button over and over and don't worry about those texts. I met andrews actually seen this. You've been in meetings andrew with people in the past who have told you. Hey by the way. I haven't paid taxes like two years. Have you seen this my making this up. No i have definitely seen this. Don't do only action item to do. It's another problem and it's it's one of those things where it's like. Oh we'll we'll we'll took it away. We'll just forget about it and they'll get away go away and then it just keeps getting bigger and bigger kentucky away. But you're still a dude. That's what i always say just andrew. I'm sorry wrong okay. Backline met glider. We go so business owners. They don't want to count through siebel business. That don't wanna track account accountemps capable. Why would they not want to track accounts. Why would they not want to track the money that's owed to them That one i don't know yourself at that point eight money. Yeah oh man okay You know you don't wanna pay the taxes on the money that you collect data i. I don't understand it's another hard conversation. People just avoid hard conversations. It's a it's a phone call that you have to make of. Hey can you pay me. That money and people don't want to do that because they're afraid of the rejection that comes with i like suren stories about clients that are so far in the past. You can't guess who they are because people can learn from it. But i mean so common. There's one particular situation back to the female entrepreneur and her husband was in charge of bookkeeping matt. Can you relate to this story of. You've seen somebody like this where there are. There are significant other. Does the accounting. Have you ever seen this. Yeah i usually don't like it so she she is a doctor and she brings in the money. I mean we're talking next level. We'll say it's one of these professionals a niches where you can make you know. Quarter million three quarters of a million dollars a year. He is in charge of accounting. He is in charge of accounting. Now when it gets called to my attention he says hey klatch when i'm gonna kinda tight spots. What do you mean. You're having like the best sales year ever you tripled your size double your size. I mean you're growing every month through their tripling or doubling euro. We've we've maniacally tracked the gross revenue. We track. what's going on. He says well she says well he. The entrepreneur says he is my husband's in charge of accounting. And i think he hasn't collected money this year this year matt the during the entirety of the in. Andhra hate these situations because there's a kind of common they are. Yeah but what's the most amount of money you've seen that a client is owed before somebody hit the panic button mainly you and said well you got to collect money. Homey that number was around six hundred thirty thousand dollars and i asked. Who's who's collecting. Oh my gosh on. No one was. No one was billing collecting matt. Why i've seen this. I mean people. It's like it's they're making the choice to die by unpaid invoices matt netflix. Something and get away from here with an oxy fresh. If you're not careful you do own the business. I mean it is your you know your duty to collect payment from the customer brought. I mean if you don't have it in you to take the extra step to get paid for from your customers. I really think you shouldn't be a franchise owner. That one is tough for me. Because you can't do all the process you've paid all this stuff to actually go to someone saw with the insurance and the marketing to get there you train. Your employees got the ability to do the job you go and do it and they give you the thumbs up and you don't take payment form. I mean i don't know what what scenario that that makes sense to anybody so weird and then the justifications always i don't want to upset them Are you kidding me. Imagine how that would agree to go there. I mean imagine that would work if we went into chick fillet today whole foods. I wanted chick-fil-a going there. Hey i want to six. What what what kind of things need a ten piece. Chicken eight count. Nugget eight count nugget. There you go and they say it's like You know seven fifty five or something. Okay i can. I pay later and they go. Yeah like right now or in a second from now which is now but can i pay i. Just could you invoice me and you go. We'll obviously restaurants that doesn't make sense. Why does that make sense. If you're like a title guy. I see this with doctors all the time. It's crazy so many of my doctors are great. Dr brek is a great client. Just yes love that guy. A contractor pm. H okay see yes. Love that guy timothy johnson the ophthalmologist love that guy. This is him laughing by the way laughing. All the way to the bank right here. That's his voice here. These guys collect but some people just don't collect in the issue comes back to over and over and i hope that i'm helping somebody out there because you are locked right now. In the habitual cycle of denial. You are stuck in the habit force of paralysis. By analysis. you are stuck in the doom loop of jackassery and right now. We need to have an intervention. We have a spiritual exercise of. We need to exercise the demons. Matt we the cast out demons of the now. You gotta pull your head out of your rectum. Okay my heads out. What do i do matt. What would you say to somebody out there for the first time in a long time. Their head is out of the rectum. There would you say what do you do now. Your heads out of your rectum. You ready to stop denying what advice dash anything the door their dornoch men read here. We lose you re. Okay backlot matt or or are there. There's some yellen in the office over here so i couldn't jump meet. I like what i would say is. If you've got your head you're disproportionate or portion. Had out of you but then you should essentially start doing things start making a list and start doing the things on that list that will help you and maybe you should listen to this. Podcast one more time and right down the list of things that we talked about. That would be a good start right. And i was certainly start with the fact that you have money out there. Go collect that first and then potentially utilize that to grow your business. Start looking at your numbers. Start looking at the money. That's going in and coming out looking at your employees so looking at your customers. Really start looking at your business. I mean we see time and time again specifically with rive. People that have come to your. You know your business. And i need help. These people are seeking out help because they know they need it right right. It's not that they're not capable they just don't know the steps to take so if you don't know the steps to take find somebody that can help you and then actually go do those things or go get a job and really only two. There's a soundtrack i wanna. I wanna have kind of sing along to. But this is the song that will be saying to your face when you're getting screwed because remember seventy five percent of us employees steal from the workplace according to cbs news. Seventy five percent. Seventy eight percent of men surveyed by the washington post sar cheating on their current partner. Seventy eight. it's it's big number. Eighty five percent of employees are lying on the resumes. Here's the soundtrack this is. This is what the person andrew this song person's gonna sing right to your face when they're when they're when they're stealing from you. You're just too good to be true. Matt can't take my eyes off of you. You'd be like heaven to touch. I wanna hold you so and you're and you're going. This person loves me. And you're going. This person loves me. This is my guy. You're my ace here my home. You're my and that's the person who is going to be able to screw you. 'cause you're denying it. You're turning a blind eye to the facts. Mad had happened to you. It's happened to me. And all i wanted to do on. Today's show was set to listeners. Freed denials not just rivard egypt. You got to avoid paralysis by over analysis and denial. And i cannot deny it. Matt your hair so proportional. Your head is so proportional and if you're out there thinking about checking out an oxy fresh you gotta do. This is these are the steps. I got three steps when you go. To thrive time show dot com ford slash oxy. Fresh thrive time show dot com slash. Oxy fresh oh x. Dash fresh drive time. Show dot com slash oxy. Fresh you fill out the form and just kind of flirt with the idea of escaping from the norm and then you're going to get a call from mike. Matt andy somebody up there at oxy. Fresh will call you and then what happens man after you. Would you call them. What what do you do next. Yeah we're gonna get into it right away. We're gonna understand you as a person what you looking to accomplish what your goals are what your expectations are. What your background is. What you're skill sets are and then we're going to see if that's a bit rocky fresh and bossy pressure good for you and it's going to be a combination of many calls. Many document sharing session. Right going through mapping software. We're gonna get to the whole bottom of to where you feel comfortable saying. You know matt andy mike love to come out and see you guys and eat the rest of the team and really lock this. This is a good option and if somebody does end up saying i think it's a good option then they then they fly out to denver right for a discovery day. If you like them they like you. They fly out. What do they say days. Do they spend two days with you. He's been two months when you. How long do they have to be there in denver. How long do they want to be in denver to check out the oxy fresh expense. Well there is two ways you can go about. There's some people that know beforehand like before they make. This is the business for me. They're gonna come out for four five days. That includes a two day discovery. Monday and tuesday with the additional three days worth of on in the field type of training. They are a franchise at that point. There's also the option of coming for two days. Just exploratory going back home evaluating your trip evaluating maybe some potential of their options. And then making your decision. If you do that then you would come back out at some point for the additional train. Completely up to you. And how much money am i going to be out. How many points to. I have to to to give you. How much do have to pay you to buy an oxy. Fresh thirty eight thousand nine hundred mega points That's your initial investment that includes your equipments product training and denver plus the protected territory. Best practice after using coming you become a franchise and the training and all that you want to have about twenty thousand of accessible funds for operating capital to get your business to a cash flow positive state where it can be funding itself and you can consistently grow i tell you what thrived nation. If you're trying to figure out how. I want to be an entrepreneur. But what should i do. I mean what what can i do i. That's a great way to. Don't you have a guy right now in lubbock texas. Who's not even twenty five years old. Running oxy freshman am i. Am i making that up. Yup he's a college student. Our youngest franchisees very driven. Young man. He is really setting the standard If anybody can bring his time or effort and enthusiasm they will absolutely be successful Age is just a number for him he is really Is turning the tide. If you will age is just a number and in a good way not in an r kelly kinda way. It's a good way for him. It's a good way. That's a good way in business ownership for him he's He's turning everything opposite right. I mean he's taking things He's following the the path he's bringing more effort. I mean he's in college right now going to classes and running a very successful business. I think he's a pretty special person. I think i'm gonna in on a capstone thought here before we say boom quote we should put on a shirt. You can talk it. But you're still a dude to kentucky steel. Wow you take care my friend. Big about that Rocky week i really appreciate the tab everyone out there be awesome. Take care and now without further ado three wrong. What if you could gain access to download each and every book that i've ever written for free. Well that'd be terrible. Because i don't like you okay. We're making a big assumption. Assuming that you do like me. And you like the thrive time show you can now go to thrive time show dot com forward slash free dash resources. That's thrive time show dot com forward slash free dash resources to download each and every book that i've ever written for free. You can download the book version of each. Every book that i've ever written for free clans want to chime in here. Real quick like or capitalist. I've looked we should get free stuff. I am in the process of explaining where you can get free stuff and you can now also download all the helpful infographics infographics on firing one. Oh one the perfect hiring system. The principles from ray daily internet marketing one. Oh one the lead been management system. Managing humans went on logo creation. Why google loves wordpress time management one. Oh one we also have an incredible info graphic about the importance of calling your leads often because the average person no longer answers their phone unless they're cold multiple times and unless they received a text from you also have the importance of file nomenclature one sales lead conversion one. Oh one and much much more and it's all available for you to download for free right now by going. To thrive time show dot com. Are you suggesting nice staff to move my. Yes as for free. Isn't there a way you could just men i mean. Why do i have to move my body. Because i be causes me. Zion would never go drive time. Show dot com. Come forward ford slash free dash research would never time dot ford slash. Free dash scores right. Let me clarify. If you have the capacity to move your fingers go to wrap time show dot com slash free dash resources to download an e book version of every single amazon bestselling book i've ever written and all the info graphics that have the power to change your life.

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207: Taking Your Health to the Next Level (with Josh Clemente of Levels)

Entrepreneur Stories for Inspiration: Millionaire Interviews

1:11:03 hr | 3 months ago

207: Taking Your Health to the Next Level (with Josh Clemente of Levels)

"That's when you're going to go get pizza and finish off with a half gallon of ice cream. That's a lot of ice cream. i love ice cream talk. Every person is actually playing around with these controls all day every day and they just don't know the effects of them and i was right that i was having these hypoglycemic episodes but i was wrong. About what the problems problems not. I needed to eat more. We're flying blind. We don't know the deposits and withdrawals so to speak that we're making every day but we're trying not to overdraw and end up in bankruptcy. Well you don't have to check your bank account. You got like fifteen million right well. Let's let's continue building business. My name is josh clementi. I'm thirty one. And i'm currently in strathmore new jersey on the jersey shore and am the founder and president of levels health. Which is the first metabolic fitness company seeking to help people answer the question. What should i eat. And why by using real time biometric data with an insightful software platform. So essentially you wear a fulltime little patch on the back of the arm which is measuring molecules like glucose in the body and then we create a closed feedback loop with that through our smartphone app. Which tells you minutes after consuming a meal for example. How your body responded to that meal or is responding to that meal and then eventually scoring that response and helping you to understand whether that was positive or negative and what other opportunities there are to improve both a meal like that or lifestyle actions around it like exercise take a sleep quality stress etc to string together a lifestyle that is personalized for you and is going to benefit your overall metabolic health in the long term and was the website in case anyone wanted to check it out so website is levels. Health dot com and the blog is on there as well which added recommend level south dot com slash block. There's an app to if they wanted to download dad that i mean i imagine they'll probably still need your arm device rain but if they wanted to. Is there an app that they would just give from any app store. So the app is still in development. Were test flight mode which is invite only but we will eventually be rolling that out to you the the app store and google play detroit. Sign up for the invite but you denied me so now. I'm just kidding. We gotta fix so okay tracks. Your blood glucose so for anyone who's not even understanding that i mean. Can you make even simpler to understand like. Is this going to tell me my health. Overall or is blood glucose like one hundred percent correlated with that. Just give me a bit more oversight. Essentially what's what is happening. Is your body. Takes the food we eat and then other factors like sunlight and convert that into energy. And the way that happens is your digestive system breaks food down into basically two types of molecules glucose which sugar and fat and those are the the molecules that your cells can use with oxygen to create energy. When that's working well your blood. Sugar levels and blood fat levels are really well controlled and they stay in a tight bound but when things start to break down either through bad decisions or poor-quality decisions. We aren't understanding their poor-quality. Because we don't really have any way of knowing that for a long period of time they can compound and essentially hormones have to respond to these molecules when they're getting out of line and it starts to kind of wreck havoc on the body overall can affect cognitive clarity memory all the way down through the physiologic effects. Which are eventually insulin. Resist inch which is also called type two diabetes cardiovascular disease inflammation all the way through to which are the leading causes of women's infertility in the united states. So there are all of these kind of syndromes associated with poor metabolic function and they are connected. Typically to blood sugar dysregulation so glucose irregularities and so by tracking these levels specifically associated with the choices. We're making every day. We can surface these insights for the first time so rather than you doing things. Every day eating lunch you know eating dinner formulating a meal. Plan that you think is gonna work out but not really having any feedback for a long period of time. You know until the bathroom scale starts to climb or until the doctor says something's wrong we can instead surface this information immediately and help you understand. Both what's working well and what could be improved. Sure yeah you might have to let me sign up says request access so i guess people could sign up on levels dot com just to get on a waiting list or something like that. Yeah we're still in development mode right now and we're you know we're building this behavior. Change software on top of the devices themselves to help make this sort of raw data easily interpret like most people don't know really that there is sugar in the blood or what it means when you know how much is in there. So we're building this software that abstracts away instead you have simple scores for your meals and for the some of your day to help you understand the positive negative. It's like a great point. We're still rapidly iterating on that and so we're in this invitation only mode you can sign up for the weightless on the website. We are inviting people. Basically as quickly as we can but looking to launch more fully later this year sounds good. I mean so. If i'm looking at it or i'm just thinking aloud. Tell me if i'm wrong in here. People used to always think of looking at our health is like overall calories right like. I'm only supposed to have so many calories but over the last let's say twenty years. Maybe people have become higher educated. That okay. Two hundred calories of a snicker bar versa. Two hundred calories of spinach is way different. Right so we're looking at. I guess the ratios of fat carbs and protein. I dust kind of the level of understanding looked at whenever i'm eating something. I just always want more protein especially from work now than the carbs to me is a worse personally. So i'm like i've always looked at that. This is another. Oh well. I didn't mean to do this. This is another level as far as understanding this. Yeah i think that's a good way to put it historically like we haven't had a good way of easily measuring and explaining these things to everyone right. They've been measured in labs and they've been measured in the medical field but we tried to simplify as much as possible down and what. We ended up with with the calories theory. Which is basically that. You know you're eating energy and no matter where that energy comes from like you said. It's all energy that is just not the way the human body works like. We're not perfect machine. Were you like put in some fuel of any kind and it will just burn cleanly and you'd end up with the same amount of energy. What we are is like a giant chemistry set. As i mentioned we have these molecules that we can get energy from sugar and fat but the way that we get energy from them is through hormones which are other chemicals so certain molecules generate different hormones and in your example of spinach versus. I can't remember. I one but singers already. Go spinach has mostly fiber some vitamins and minerals a lot of water. Basically no carbohydrates whereas snickers is almost entirely processed sugar so when the spanish goes into your body it's going to break down slowly. It's got a lot of fiber which is insoluble which is gonna help clean up the digestive tract but the energy that comes from there is going to be very slow release. It is carbohydrates still. They're very slow release variety because they're bound with fiber whereas the snickers bar breaks down immediately. It's essentially already processed sugar and it's gonna go right into the bloodstream. And that's gonna create a massive amount of insulin which is a metabolic hormone. That has to get sugar out of the blood into the cells so the difference between those two is going to be that insulin response and when overtime were continually eating foods where the energy is coming from these very process sources that are creating large swings in our hormones. We experienced those as changes in our quality of life and or changes in our physiology. If you're constantly in a high state of insulin because you're eating processed sugar or processed carbohydrates. Your body is constantly having to store that as fat. That's essentially how the system works and this is like the interesting thing is that different people process these things differently. So some people that seems just can't produce body fat very effectively which is a good thing to right. but that hormone is still being released in high quantities. And what you can end up with our other factors like you know you have secondary systems breaking down and this is where like mental function gets affected your brain inches sort of insulin. Resistance state something. Most people don't know is alzheimer's. Dementia is currently being taught in medical schools as type three diabetes. Because the way that the brain starts to change is that it's not able to process insulin effectively anymore. So it's like for people who maybe aren't in. This isn't exclusively people who don't gain weight but just generally speaking these hormonal dysfunctions start to affect different systems differently. It can be the brain. It could be the body for women it can be ovaries for men. It can be sexual dysfunction that leads to low testosterone. Basically there's just all this mayhem that can happen and all of it comes down to the fact that what we eat. Various specifically matters and the calories hypothesis. Although it's true calories are a unit of energy not all calories are the same and the effects on us are very very different and we know that with you know with better detail. Luckily we can with this new technology. I still want to dive deeper into this real quick. But overall businesswise can ask about that first and then we'll dive back more into the science. Because i'm kind of fascinated by but you said you were going to plan on coming out late. Twenty twenty one. So i imagine your pre revenue. So we're actually not pre revenue. You know we've been doing a paid beta program for about a year. Now we had like an early prototype concept of basically bringing this hardware. The continuous glucose monitor and then connecting it into our software suite and and we've built a business model that includes access to the devices which are prescription controlled in the united states. So we have a relationship with a fifty state pharmacy provider. We have a relationship with an independent telehealth network of physicians who can take consultations with our members and determine whether or not to write a prescription for them and then we can fulfil our levels kit with devices from the pharmacy to the end user. It's kind of like a direct consumer is version of getting access to this medical technology. So that's kind of the business model than our software is built on top of that so we've been testing that model for about a year. Now we've been slowly increasing volume so far we've had about five thousand people use the program we've exceeded up two million dollars in total sales thus far but we're not growing actively our focus is still heavily on development on product milestones and limiting access to products such that. The number one thing that we care about which is customer feedback is what we're optimizing for not rather than revenue growth etc. That's kind of where we are today. We're planning to finish up those product milestones here in the coming months and then moved to a a mainstream launch and started growth mode in terms of capitalization and team. We raised about twelve million dollars in seed funding from angels and then new money from a sixteen z and that round came together over a fairly long period of time you know we were initially raising from strategic angels on safe notes brought on some strategic investors some and then later in two twenty twenty when kind of the co of uncertainty had passed and. Vc's were doing deals again. We raise that full round that larger round and with came in as our lead. So we've been moving quickly in a primarily because we're a remote i company. We had actually made the decision to be distributed before covid hit so it wasn't a major disruption for us. We continue to hit our cadence this time. Last year we were at seven people full-time we're now at about seventeen. Burn rate is quite low bringing revenue. So we're in a good position to capitalize on our product objectives and ramp out of this development mode and use our funding that we've raised to really start hitting our growth phase if someone was interested in this. They can't really get it yet without going to. The doctor is like the people who are still in the trial phase. Who are being given access. Are they people with diabetes where this seems like it might affect a more. Someone wanted to get this now. Before whenever you actually roll out with the public offering. How would they do that or or your normal clients for the yes. So quick history on the technology we're using we didn't develop the patch itself. These are devices that were developed for specifically the management of diabetes which people who aren't super familiar it's a disorder where it kind of is the effect that i was just talking about glucose and insulin. The hormone that response to glucose that feedback loop is broken and blood. Sugar levels are out of control. This technology continuous glucose monitoring was developed for people with diabetes. To keep an eye on their glucose in real time and be able to to monitor and manage effectively. We're using these devices which have been developed over a very long period of time and have been approved by the fda for the management of metabolic dysfunction. And we're moving into a new space. Which is general wellness and information. You know better metabolic awareness and ultimately for metabolic fitness. Which is the focus effort and repetition that you take to the gym or to mindfulness for people who practice meditation you kind of have to put in work overtime to get better. Same thing for this metabolic health. You know we need better information and then we need to use it to make better decisions. That's where we're applying it. So actually. Our use case is not for diabetes and our earliest adopters are typically non diabetic now. you have to clarify. that levels. doesn't decide who ends up using the product because we have a telehealth organization because prescription only physicians are reviewing information about each person that comes into the program and ensuring that cgm specifically continuous glucose monitoring is right for that person and if they determined to do so they will write a prescription for them. So it's a little bit of a unique scenario because there is medical technology involved but for the most part people are using these to learn more about themselves and understand. You know with confidence. The connection between what they're doing every day in terms of diet nutrition sleep stress and exercise. And then what they could be doing to improve. We're all looking for ways to save money right especially now so let me ask you this. 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You know as an entrepreneur you know that every dollar counts and you could easily take that savings and start a new side hustle this very weekend so like i mentioned earlier gabby customer save nine hundred and sixty dollars per year on average. I bet that'd be nice to have in your pocket every year. If they can't find you savings like they did for me dylan. Oh so you can relax knowing you have the best read out there. And they'll never sell your info so no annoying spam or robocalls. You know what you're probably overpaying on car and home insurance and so why don't you see how gabby can save you money. It's totally free check. And there's no just go to gabby dot com slash millionaire. That's gabby dot com slash millionaire gabby dot com slash millionaire. I was looking for some sort of community where i could get some ideas on business. I could find motivation inspiration to pursue my own things. I've technically have my own business for twelve years now but it's a really small operation and i'm trying to do something bigger being told. Just go out there and do it is very helpful and that sly joined. Yeah so. I mean understanding the like you said. The doctors are writing the prescription. People have to note. I guess to ask for or most of those people are they the ones going in not very healthy. 'cause that's what i was thinking when i'm looking at your website and you know maybe people who are super fit who wanna get one of these but i don't know if i would qualify or someone who's really fit would qualify to easily get a prescription and it's like how many hoops to jump through to get it. At this point it comes down to just a few things like the physician wants to ensure that if someone has a concern they already have a disorder of metabolism. They should probably work with their personal doctor in a much. Tighter format to get healthier. That's kind of the thing. Is that this program that we're building is for general awareness in general insight for people who are gonna flying blind today and they don't yet have a concern a metabolic health issue. That's what the levels programs for and you may be an athlete. You may maybe someone who wants to lose weight. You may just be the average person who's just trying to make better choices for better health. It's not specifically for any category. You know we're trying to build this such that. It can hit the mainstream to really elevate our awareness of just how bad metabolic health is at the societal scale and get people taking the lead in their health so right now there isn't any criteria that you be a certain type of person and ultimately like as i mentioned it comes down to the physician. It's just the belief that people who already have a concern that needs to be very rigorously cared for should work with their doctor. You know one on one off filling on that. I mean maybe years down the line where i understand that. No one's going to be necessarily the perfect customer. You have a specific niche of a type of person. But like for me. Now if i went in and went for the doctor and i think i'm pretty healthy. What are the chances day. Say yes versus no again. I know it depends on doctor doctor. But i like testing myself and like what happens if i eat a whole bag. Candy verse again. Like just talking about spinach. I would want one of these just to kind of see what it does because then i would know versus like now. I don't know i can kind of feel sometimes energy rush and then a crash but just for a regular guy like me is the way i'm thinking about it like refund but i could see my doctor saying like austin. You don't need this so some background there for me. I started out in a similar situation. I'm cross fit trainer as well like an engineer but also cross between. I have always kind of thought that. If i'm physically fit i'm really healthy and had this lifelong obsession and addiction with candy. My friends in college will tell the tales. I would eat peanut. Eminem's for dinner and i would just eat enough of them that i was full and i would feel that energy rush. I would love it. Inevitably at crash out an hour later. So i never really connected that to health i through my work ended up getting more familiar with human physiology metabolism and start to understand. That diet and nutrition are huge. They have these massive implications the way our bodies function. What we're made of is what we put in our bodies and it does matter. And so i tried to get access to continuous glucose monitor myself through my doctor and early on he. He did exactly what you mentioned there and he just kind of said you don't need this. You're not diabetic. You don't need to measure blood sugar at all because that's for people who already have a problem with blood sugar. That struck me as very strange. Because i knew that these sorts of issues build very slowly over time you can think of them as compounding interest either positively or negatively. If you're making bad decisions every day that can compound over time into steadily worse. Blood sugar regularity and then ultimately it can really break down and that's when you have diabetes but if you're waiting until that happens to start measuring it you never see it coming so felt to me confusing and that's why ultimately i wanted to do what we're doing here with levels and there's a piece in between here where i did end up. Getting a continuous glucose monitor. And i discovered that i did have blood sugar dysregulation it was very erratic it was well outside the normal range and i was heading in a bad direction and i had this gut feeling and then my fears were confirmed when i got the device and so that's one of those strange situations where i was just experimenting. I thought man. I must be one in a million that this happen then. I looked into the statistics and it turns out. There are ninety million adults in the united states alone with prediabetes. And the cdc says that seventy percent of those will end up with type two diabetes. If they don't make changes but the kicker is that eighty four percent of those ninety million don't know they have prediabetes. This is based on random testing. But they don't understand that there's a problem because they've never tested for it. That's the situation that we have in in in our current site. Is that about a third of the people. Walking around currently are at high risk of type two diabetes and they don't know it and we have ten percent of the population with type two diabetes and that's increasing at an increasing rate. So it's important that we change this philosophy around who should get access to their own bodies information and when and we need to start putting it earlier and earlier so that ultimately we are all well aware of how our bodies function and we're making data driven decisions instead of random emotional decisions kind of a roundabout way to answer your question but that problem does exist. The access issue and levels exists to resolve by connecting with physicians. Who are very open to the concept of real time biological information being used to make better choices. Did you get your glucose monitor in the black market. Well you know it's funny. In other countries. These monitors are available over the counter. You don't need a prescription so actually got one in australia. Where where they're readily available. Okay so i just gotta get onto mahyco right now. So i know where i'm going. You're close. Yeah i mean yeah where to pod man. Worst thinking the same thing i think. How fucked up. It is that you're trying to be proactive. And i'm thinking the same thing. I already know what the doctor is going to say. Because they'd say it to like when i go in there like your healthy. I'm like dude. I still don't feel like i'm that healthy like overall if you considered to most americans on probably in the top ten percent but put me back. Fifty years ago might be average right just because just because i'm not obese right. So is this. Like i want to be proactive. Like this is funny. A lot of people who are business. People are proactive in general. So it's funny that you said that doctor said that to you because i feel like that's exactly what it would say to me if i go in. Yeah you know i. It's definitely individual and there's so much difference across different physicians who have different perspectives in. So that's why we have partnered with the network that we did. It's a forward thinking network of physicians. Who basically believe in telehealth. Which is the idea that you shouldn't have to go to a specific office in order to work with a doctor. You should be able to work with dr. That works with you and you should be able to do that from anywhere. So that's the first thing just making this telehealth possibility real and then secondly working with doctors who believe in the individual right to access their own information. What i think is strange is that we would ever limit someone from knowing data that is being produced by their own bodies. That's the first thing that has to change is just recognition that if my body's producing the signal and i measure it that is my data to own and then i should share it with my doctor who i trust to help me get better health. The first step is just making sure that we don't have an unnecessary gatekeepers situation where a person is blocked from understanding something about their body. Like you're saying that it's hard to get in. you can go to other countries to do it. I mean imagine because big pharma might want people to be diabetes. It seems i. I'd go into ketosis and do you know that i imagine yet. Totally up speed uncontested. I i didn't realize you were kito guy. I go back and forth. I like i said when i try to be like less carbs or whatever i'm just point now is like if i could measure something you could buy kito sticks which you just piss on and it shows you whether ketosis or not right so i can't tell you how much more momentum that would have me on not eating as many carbs. If i saw that right so that would make me wanna be excited. Be like okay. I ate this now. I can see what actually did to me when i can measure it like i might only need this thing even for a month. It would seem like for me personally like okay. I knew what that did to me. That spiked it up a nanny. Good austin just like people again. Trying to be proactive. Like you were saying like dowd. Make it so much. Better in the future far as people getting diabetes and whatnot but it's frustrating to even think that doctors when you went in for glucose monitor or alec giving you should it sounds like it's it's something we have to slowly change. It's just a matter of recognizing this technology exists. It's ready you know people can access it. It's not super affordable yet but with wider adoption. We can make it affordable and by doing so. We can kind of these crazy statistics. That i was talking about you know like here. An globally metabolic dysfunction is on a rampage. You know so. It's really important that we recognize that equip people the people who are responsible for maintaining their own health. Like i think that individual is responsible for maintaining health. It's not the doctor's responsibility for me not to get sick. That's just a personal belief of mine. And i think that everyone if we adopted that philosophy and gave everyone the responsibility in the tools to keep themselves healthy. We would quickly change the situation. We're in and that would only benefit doctors you know. I think the medical industry is not equipped to both cure people who are sick with disease while simultaneously preventing everyone else from getting. And it's just not how how this is gonna happen. So we got to really shift the responsibility metric and get rid of any regulations that are limiting that. I'm gonna keep just ask about this. Because i don't know how far we'll get into till we discuss business. We might have to do that on a part to later on if that's okay because i'm just so fascinated by this because i mean i mostly listen to business podcast every once in a while health especially again type a. personalities or whatever you want to strive to be your best self and talking about ketosis in case anyone doesn't understand and tell me if i'm wrong right as you're trying to make your body burn fat so i'm trying to have less carbs and how higher protein and fat and so my body's gonna use that instead of the carbs for energy is that right. I i mentioned beginning. There's basically two molecules. Your body can use for energy fat and glucose and there's kind of a third one which is key tones but ketones are medical but they can dissolve in water. And what that means is that it's a little bit tricky but like there's a barrier around your brain and you have to be able to get energy molecules across that barrier and key tones can cross that barrier to be used by the brain for energy so usually glucose as the only molecule that can be used by the brain for energy. And when you're in ketosis you're producing this ketone molecule which is fat. but it's fat in a format that can be used by your entire body including your brain for energy so it's a really unique specific kind of a cool molecule. That does exactly that burns your fat and makes it available to every every tissue and most people aren't in that state i don't know maybe one percent if that gets in his brain because everyone's eating so many carbs right so your body's going to only use that if they don't have the carbs as the energy like you were saying exactly because here's one of the things i mean. I started hearing in it. I think dr up. I think i heard it from him. Yeah yeah we're working with him. Because i'd like to have an energy drink every once in a while every once in a while i mean every day but it says zero sugar on it right so i'm like i'm gonna get zero sugar because again i try not to eat too much sugar. But keep sneaking sugar into stuff. And especially i think he said something about. This is a zero sugar. But really if you look at the ingredients they have all this other shit in there that basically hiding in basically is sugar. They just don't have to put on the ingredients label and that makes sense to me because y becoming addicted to this like it just frustrating. That's why i'm looking at your thing. I'm like dude. I really wanna know if this other ingredients that they stay on. This can right now that i mean looking at. Is this really thirty grams of sugar. But they're just hiding it. S why if i had your levels health right now okay. That would help me figure that out exactly. Yeah i think what. You're feeling right now which i don't know if you've felt this before but like it's certainly for me. When i first dug in and realized i don't know anything about what's going on in my body later like what i'm putting into my body. There's all of this marketing but what it is just marketing and nutrition labels. Don't tell the whole story. And i had no confidence what i was doing. And so when you first put on this device and you have that close feedback. Would you eat something and within fifteen minutes. You're seeing a live data update from your body on how that's affecting you it's completely transformed a we call it a magic moment but like it's a light bulb you're like in conversation with your body are able to see something and that builds confidence even if you end up being portrayed by some of your favorite foods you're betrayed and you're happy about it because you're like now. I know i'm not gonna keep doing that to myself or if i do. I'm going to do it on my own terms. Like i'm gonna decide to indulge in that energy drinker in that desert that i know you know isn't great for me but i'm going to do it on my own terms and so that's really unique and it's something that changed my life you know again. I kicked my candy habit in two weeks just using this device i just realized how bad it was for me. It was so much worse than i had ever imagined before. Now that i knew what the human body you know where it should be in terms of blood sugar ranges and and where it was going from regular foods let alone from candy which is just pure sugar so. I just decided not to do that to myself anymore. I stick to to richard desserts. That have fats and proteins and are more balanced meals. And i did that because i have data. You know i have an objective source of truth. Now and so one of the beautiful things that i think wide adoption of this technology will lead to we will be able to eliminate or at least push back misleading marketing. So what you're talking about. You know hidden sugars putting molecules ingredients in something that aren't recognized by the usda as added sugar specifically so that you can get that nice zero sugar label all over your marketing materials. But you know very well that it's having similar or the seem hormonal effects on that person. Those are the types of things that are happening in once. We have this technology out there. We'll be able to identify them. And then people will make different decisions. Consumers will buy other products and that will force. I think our food supply to change so the marketing will change and the options will change. We'll have across the board. I think healthier opportunities to eat for more affordable prices. This is will have decided to. I mean you can tell me. If i think i'm wrong between listen to mr high mennan understanding basics i guess hopefully of nutrition and whatnot but when all these energy drink companies what do they have like twenty five different flavors. They must be making profiles that get some people addicted. 'cause there's only one flavor that i like versus the other twenty four and i feel like their certain profiles for and it's not just the energy drink right there's other like candy or whatever it is and it's like you almost get hooked into it and i need to see what it actually does because now i'm just used to it and then you kind of just addicted to your habits and i don't feel horrible i still think i'm quote unquote healthy but i know it can be like a healthy me and if i saw that hey this thing was really messing me up. By using your hap- i've just feel like have changed the habits you're saying. I can't speak to the formulations of the other products. But i know what it's like to be addicted to certain things like sugary. The taste was so rewarding. There was nothing to tell me not to do it. It was like i wasn't getting overweight. I wasn't gaining weight and it tasted delicious. So why would i not do. You know calories are calories. And that's what the food system had led me to believe. But the reality is that i was wrecking havoc on my metabolic function. And historically my family does not have a lot of overweight and diabetes but we do have heart disease and we do have cognitive decline in dementia. At the time that i discovered this tech i was burning out mentally and physically. Like my mood was terrible. My mental clarity was shot. I felt like i was like walking around a fog all day long and i think the effects for me are different than the effects for other people like. You're saying there's a lot of individuality and because of just probably my genetic. Makeup i manifest metabolic dysfunction differently than other people and so all of the negative effects of the that candy was hidden from sight. Because i couldn't see into my body and now with with just this one data stream you can do so much with it to better understand yourself and understand what choices you make to live a healthier life. you know. there's also some really cool research has been done just touch on one of these studies but there's a lot of fascinating stuff happening in real time one study was done in two thousand fifteen. They took eight hundred. People who did not have diabetes. They put continuous glucose monitors on them and fed them a whole bunch of identical foods and they showed that two people can eat the exact same foods in this case. It was a banana and a cookie made with wheat flour and they can have equal and opposite blood sugar responses so a spiked of banana and flat flatlined for the cookie for one person and the exact opposite for the other person. What that means. Is those two. People are probably having exactly opposite hormone responses to so the insulin. The weight gain all those downstream effects are probably different and we need more research to confirm that but more research is being done which is showing that not only that affect true but it's also true for people who share all of their dna so identical twins who share a hundred percent of their dna. Have that same amount of variability you in. Your twin can have very different responses to the same foods so genetics isn't everything it seems to be like context your body composition. How much fat. You have how. Much lean body mass. How much stress. You have how well slept. You are all of these things affect how a person processes their food ultimately the only real solution for someone to know exactly what they should eat is to have more information in real time until we at least cracked the code at that point. Maybe you don't need to continue measuring but some of us like myself prefer to anyway guys. 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And guess what you can have all this done by seen investor without you doing any of the work how well just contact jonathan tuttle at midwest heart capital again that's mid west part capital dot com to learn how you can invest in mobile home parks today. One more time go visit mid west park capital dot com. So i know this past. Friday was your first group call. Did get the answer. You're looking for actually. I got a good answer to like. More questions of those are like the best answers awesome. Try to make sure. All of our new members get their questions answered. I yeah that was perfect. That was definitely perfect yet. House like okay. now. I've got a research. This and ex team is like it was perfect. Yeah again even if someone used it for a week and like understood like because people get regular eating habits right and then you at least see what it does then. I think there's certain people like maybe you and me to love like maybe measuring things. Whether there's maybe other people want as much but i can see i'll be benefit long-term but even short term for people who have no idea. I was kind of going out to jones on the flavor profile ideas but a feeling couple years. Because there's certain things that like. I ask people if they like are hooked to something. They're like yeah. I'm hooked to that too but again like you're saying to people might have opposite responses to one energy drink like you were saying earlier but so i mean what's craziest things that since you've got to put on the levels patch you call the levels patra would you call it exactly. Yeah levels patches get the levels device. Okay yeah so. What do you put that on. What were craziest responses that you weren't expecting well. One of the craziest was just very early on in the project. I was actually trying to raise money. I was going into an investor meeting. Let's see i slept really poorly is preparing all night. Took a train up to new york. And i'm walking into this office building. And i saw this little organic juice cart. You know about press juice. You know this is all the rage is a really healthy thing. You press a fruit or vegetable and just get that clean healthy juice so i ordered from the menu. This drink called health drink and it was a green apple. Some carrots and celery and they were all pressed. There was no sugar added. I watched the lady make it right in front of me. And i took this into the meeting and i'm drinking at about thirty minutes. After i finish this healthy drink my blood sugar was at two hundred ten milligrams per deciliter which for people who don't know which is almost everyone so don't feel dumb if you don't know because i don't know either. So tell me josh. You shouldn't nobody talks on this enough bushes say that the highest should go after a very sugary meal if you are healthy is lower than one hundred and forty milligrams per deciliter. And you shouldn't exceed. One hundred eighty unless you have diabetes. And i was at two hundred ten now a year later my goal is to stay below one hundred and ten after every meal all the time so i was basically double the blood sugar concentration that based on the research. I believe to be healthy from drink. That's called health drink. That has just pressed fruits and vegetables. And i think what's happening there is that we're you know. We're stripping out all of the fiber from these healthy plants and vegetables with the tent of getting more of them into our bodies like to get more of that health stuff in but what we're doing is actually completely changing the way that our body can digest and metabolize these things and it's causing a really unhealthy response at least for someone like myself so. I don't know how everyone else responds but i know for me. That is not a good choice. And i will not be making that and it was alarming to see it happen in real time. Another interesting one is oatmeal oatmeal. Is if you google the healthiest breakfast. I see that. I fucking hate me on. My wife likes it one. I wouldn't even try this. I've never been a big fan myself. I'm more of a cream of wheat guy. But anyway the you google the healthiest breakfast and top three guarantee you is going to be in any list oatmeal and i don't know how this ended up happening at some sort of sleight of hand or marketing but at the end of the day oatmeal is a process green. And when i eat oatmeal which i thought to be very healthy meal completely plane did not add any syrup any brown sugar. My blood sugar was again in a diabetic budget. Arrange like it was way out of control. The thing is is that blood sugar spikes and you know what we call. Variability the the number of spikes and crashes is very closely associated with inflammation and with cardiovascular disease so people who have diabetes and prediabetes are at a much higher likelihood of having a disease of their arteries or cardiovascular dysfunction so oatmeal is marketed as this heart healthy food that everyone should have every morning. Especially if you wanna maintain cardiovascular health yet for someone like myself. If i were to eat that every morning i would be driving myself daily closer and closer to a cardiovascular condition so it's a very real and concerning problem that i can't entirely say that it's fraudulent or anything like that i. I don't know the whole history of how heart-healthy ended up on oatmeal. But it's certainly not heart healthy for everyone you know. Those are two examples that like definitely changed my perspective on food and i believe that they made me healthier in the long run. Because it's one thing to to find out that something that you thought was unhealthy. Really is unhealthy. It's another thing to find out that you think is healthy is actually the opposite so i now eat a much higher fiber protein and fat breakfast. I'll have eggs rabakov toast. Or i'll even do like chia seeds and putting in like chia seed pudding which is like the seeds are high in fiber and healthy fats. I'll make some protein powder. I'll how does really tasty breakfast dish. That's similar to oatmeal inconsistency which i actually liked the consistency but i think it has much better flavor and has absolutely no response gives me energy all day long and those are the types of things that i would only know through better information real time. I might even ask for some more examples if that's okay because the reason i was wondering like especially the surprising ones recently i've had a sure kick rival candy. You know and so we all know. Candy's not good for you. But gives her some people who still don't understand that. But it's a surprising things that especially if i'm forcing myself to eat oatmeal and i hate oatmeal in. It doesn't do well on this right. Go spike. I'm like no way i'm going to touch that again. You know right. Yeah it's and again it's individual. There's there are people on my team who have no response to oatmeal like they. Just don't have a big spike from it and so again we don't really understand the mechanisms well enough yet. We will in the future and that's what levels researchers working on his better connecting the dots between all of these interesting variables but other examples. That even go beyond nutrition you. I also tested fasting for a long time. I thought that i was a person who got hypoglycemic. You know just like. I felt shaky and i felt hungry and i would feel irritable and so i was like i must be. I must have low blood sugar. Because i haven't eaten and this is what i was eating i. I used to be one of those. Proponents of kind of the bodybuilding mindset. Where you need to eat six meals six days in college i. It's be hard to like. I did i forget. The guy's book i'm going to look it up. But it's like the perfect ratio of carbs protein fat and something to look that up but Yeah i know exactly what you're talking about. I did the same thing in college. And that like i tried to kind of keep that up after school and i would just assume that any time that i was feeling the sensation. Oh i need to eat again. But once i got the device i started to see that i was having these meals that i thought were really good. In example would be like sushi. Right out have brown rice sushi or i would have a burrito bowl with brown rice and black beans and a tortilla on the side. And you know. I'm like getting a lot of carbs protein. A lot of fat. This is a great meal. And i was going to say to real quick. Is that you're even trying your best. Make sure it wasn't white. Rice rice understood the difference between brown rice the slow-burn versus the of white rice. So you're trying to do everything that everyone says exactly. Yeah so that concept there. The brown versus white races glycemic index. It's the idea that there's this list of foods in it's like ranked by how sugary it is or how how facile affect your blood sugar so that. That is why i was eating brown rice. So yeah i'm again. I'm across fit level to trainer. Like i've taken fitness seriously my whole life. I'm trying to eat in such a way that it will fuel my body and give me muscle and give me energy. And i'm seeing with this device that like after these meals. My blood sugar is skyrocketing. It's staying elevated. Where i feel this kind of strange like a flutter e like weird chest sensation a little tinguely in my face like a bit strange like nothing that i would call home about. Typically when i see that data and connected to the sensation i start to like recognize it and then two hours later my blood sugar's crashing so my body has like flooded my system with insulin to try and get control of the blood sugar situation and i just get this plummeting glucose level and that is when i feel that shaky fatigue situation where my mood is dropped out from under me. I'm irritable. i'm like immediately hungry. Desperately hungry i feel like i need to sit down and i was right that i was having these hypoglycemic episodes but i was wrong about what the problem was problems not. I needed to eat more problems. I was eating the wrong things which are causing this rollercoaster. So when i tuned my diet like pulled back heavily on really all carbohydrates because i'm very carbohydrates sensitive and replace them with high fiber high protein moderate fat. My blood sugar levels completely flattened out. And so i ended up. You know right now where i am. I stay within plus or minus ten points all day. Long all my meals in that like sensation of you know shakiness of fatigue and irritability is just gone. I don't i don't experience that anymore. Because i'm not experiencing the highs that come before the lows and that is also connected me with fasting where i can now see. I've done seventy two hour fast at this point and learned that you know what i thought was hypoglycemia. A need to be eating six times. A day is not real at all and in fact my body will produce. Exactly how much blood sugar. I need to not only survive but perform from the fat stores. I have and the sugar stores. I have already in my muscles and liver and so i can just cruise. My glucose will be nice and flat consistent no weird elevations and crashes for three days at a time without eating single calorie and so seeing that. It's pretty powerful to see and recognize like your body's pretty fine tuned machine. And as long as you're not kicking it repeatedly it will perform well and it's brings about a lot of freedom when it comes to food to recognize. You can eat once a day if you want you know. It's just a matter of getting as much energy as you need and most of us don't need that six meal thing and i looked it up. I don't know if this was the book that did it for you to of somewhat right. I knew it body was called body for life by bill philips. I never read it. But i think i'm familiar with what you're talking. I know that it's the same. It's the same content rate same concept. Yeah yeah basically. Just make sure you have the same amount of carbs and he wasn't even low-carbon this. This is before i started doing lower carb but they're just like the same ratio of carbs to proteins rate. So at least. I was on a level of understanding that again. Versus like just. Don't have too many calories in a day. I'm like dude. I'm bigger than most people. I i need more calories. So that makes sense and so i would eat exactly what we say six meals they're supposed to be smaller quote unquote but at the dude when you have to time every three hours to eat in doing that in between classes and try to have the protein drink eaten apple with it so my levels are equal. And i've done the whole route of like now. If i could measure it like you were saying i don't do that anymore. But that's the reason. I brought up spinach because from my understanding. That's probably the healthiest thing you can have. So it's just like. I try to make sure i eat some of that stuff. I'm not going out eating mcdonalds. Luckily i don't even like that stuff to be honest but if i had even better way of measuring there's certain people even if you take a personality tests. I think i mentioned this. It's been a long time that i did. But there's like traits that you look at one of mine is like being a competition or chievements. Those are my top two. I think and it's like dude. If i can see that achieving certain things and not going to hire you low like you were saying. I know that could take me to another levels. I if you're looking back can you tell us like the difference. You feel as far as if you're able to keep it level all day versus before when you were in oatmeal and whatnot. Can you remember the difference for sure. I mean when i was going through the early experiments you know just trying to measure this myself for the first time i actually went to my doctor prior to getting advice and i said i think i have a terminal illness like something is very wrong with my with something because like i don't feel healthy in every day. I'm struggling to get through the day. Like i was remembering back to win. I was in college or just out of college. And i just had a lot of energy all the time and my mood was upbeat and i felt like i was cruising and then this you know now. Six years on. I was just like every day. I get hit by these waves of fatigue that i was describing and and it was not just physical mental and it was mood and so now. The difference is dramatic and primarily. I think the major benefits. So i don't want to say that. I've got nitrous oxide in my veins and i'm flipping cars over and like flying around on you know like superman. It's more so just. I don't have those low lows. And i have a consistent output energy and the biggest thing for me is mental clarity so my mood and my ability to just recall words and maintain a steady output of mental and physical energy. All day long is restored. So you know. I certainly feel like. I think this is just standard aging decade later after school. I'm not the same. As i was. When i was twenty but consistent performance daily in my ability to just get up and work out and then do a eighteen hour work day and feel good is back and that is what was completely broken. You know just a year or two ago. I really put all of it. On this metabolic function it was developing and it wasn't just nutrition. I'd love to touch on some of the other stuff. But the ways that i was breaking myself down previously where the nutrition i was eating in the fact that i couldn't i was too sensitive to it and then also just like the sleep and sustained stress that i was putting myself under which stress of course is related to hormonal releases. Like quarters cortisol and those have direct implications in metabolism so connecting. All of these dots together. I've changed a huge number of things about basically every decision. I make every day monitor. Mike lucas right. Now i would have been able to remember. It was called body for health instead of body for life see. I can't even remember dude. I lean over to a different. Like i'd almost remembered it but if i been eating gripe and measuring everything i wanna have to even use google anymore. So maybe so. I guess what are the points of again. I'm just fascinated by the nutrition. But i i think that's the foundation of everything. Start eating a little bit better. That's almost gonna fix everything out said. That was the most interesting thing to me. And when i'm just looking at it what else does it do. So i was always kind of person that believed that you could sort of sleep when you're dead. I'm comparing uncompetitive. Sleep a long time really wondering like to us like when you said eighteen hour workdays. I'm like maybe you don't have to sleep anymore. Monitor glucose land. I should take that back. I don't like any more. That's that's not good for me. But i didn't learn that lesson really until i had the feedback from a glucose monitor because i was finally able to see the negative impact of the stress that i was producing for myself. So basically stress is a state probably best defined by cortisol levels to of cortisol. It's a fighter. Flight hormone is released in response to stress and it primes your body for a fight or a flight the way it does that. Is it interferes with insulin and other hormones in the body and causes you to produce a ton of energy so the goal is to get your body ready for an endeavor. Once i put on this device i recall specifically going into a very stressful meeting. You know preparation presentation like it was all really important and sugar skyrocketed. Like i had just drank a health drink. You know when does press juices. It went up like fifty points in stayed elevated for about thirty five or forty minutes like during the most stressful part of the presentation. That was like one of the first lessons where kelly kelly. You know it's not just nutrition that can have major physiologic effects but this stress thing and the way it's impacting us both acutely like in that moment where you're in that meeting and long-term where you are constantly in a state of stress because of either psychological concerns or because you're you're sleeping poorly were not enough and your body is never recovering and so it's always in this elevated state of readiness almost because you're you're never allowing the full process of deep restorative sleep to happen so that can compound over a long period of time and people are ending up with a lot of weight gain issues and a lot of adrenal issues and a lot of frankly metabolic dysfunction that is blatantly due to their poor stress management. So you can be eating a good nutrition fill diet by just a single night of short sleep sleep four hours instead of eight hours can cause people to have forty percent higher insulin. Requirements declare the same amount of sugar out of their blood. So basically a meal that you ate yesterday after eight hours of sleep can be forty percent worse or more taxing on your insulin resistance system or on your your metabolic system the next day if you only get four hours asleep and that's been studied repeatedly and i've seen that relationship so i've taken red eye flights and you know i sleep terribly. Get the flight and the whole next day. My blood sugar is constantly elevated mode. Just ten fifteen percent higher than normally as an every response to every meal is dramatically worse so this is like this lesson taught me a sleep. Matters recovery matters. I need to start prioritizing it. And then b when i am compromised. When i've had that core sleep. I tend to be more likely to cheat on my diet when you're all stressed out got a tough day and you haven't slept well like that's when you're going to get that pizza and finish it off with a half gallon of ice cream but that's a lot icier pro. I love ice cream but the reality is that the preservation of your metabolic health matters most when you are so compromised by sleep so you have these four levers nutrition exercise sleep and stress when you're compromised on one of them. It's more important to make up for it on the others so it's the opposite of what we tend to do. Tend to like beat ourselves while we're down with the poor sleep followed by the poor nutrition and we need to be more mindful of more aware that we have to start doing the opposite. And if you're going to be indulging in a meal or getting poor sleep you should make sure you're doing everything you can to keep things on the straight narrow on the other parts of your life daily lifestyle if i have one of these patches on i'm sleeping can you just like make me exercise while i'm sleeping so are getting that balance. We haven't gotten that far yet but it's on the roadmap virgin too. Yeah exactly yeah. So you're saying exercise nutrition and stress with those three things that you kinda were alluding to if you have balance at all those you're gonna feel much better. Yeah i consider sleep to be separate from stress but it really is the same thing it's a. It's a stress control mechanism. These are the four big levers that were pulling on every day. Every person is actually playing around with these controls all day every day and they just don't know the effects of them other than like every once in a while you'll be like man. I really feel bad right now. Or i feel really great right now. I wonder what it is. Maybe it was that health. Drink that i got from the juice car yesterday. You know it's like we don't have the ability to connect the dots between all the things we're doing and these are the four big things that we can control. there are of course systems. That will break down. That are out of our control. there are illnesses. that you know won't be prevented by managing glucose current cancer with us. Yeah you know it's like it's certainly not a cure for really anything it. What it is is a tool. It's a tool to help us. Better understand how our bodies work and what. The implications of our choices are and then we can like you kind of the way that we use financial information. You don't open a bank account and then say like i'm never gonna check this balance but i don't overdraw that's kind of the situation with metabolism. His like we're flying blind. The deposits and withdrawals so to speak that. We're making every day but we're trying not to overdraw and end up in bankruptcy. Well you don't have to check your bank account. You got like fifteen million right well. Let's let's continue business. But that's kind of the metaphor is just like we've gotta make it more like financial information where we're using it to plan a strategy like all of us were many people have their retirement plan and they're like slowly but surely building towards that end goal of like being financially secure and being retired and being able to enjoy their lives. But guess what most of us don't know whether we're going to be healthy enough to be around for that retirement or to be able to take advantage of it and we've got to get to that point where we're using health data to you know plan our daily decisions the way that we're going to compound positive actions to make sure that not only are we financially secure in retirement but we're also healthy enough to live and enjoy it can measure your heart rate to all those other there's any other functions on there that it actually measures that would help like throughout the day. Well we've got integrations built with apple. Health kit and google fit so we do auto import activities and heart rate data and sleep data were feature sets on top of each of these to really bring together all of your lifestyle choices combined with gm and allow you to see in the context of metabolic information or in the context of blood sugar information how different activities affect your metabolic response. How your heart rate implications effect response and how your sleep quality and duration affect you so definitely building all of that in. We consider all of those to be kind of secondary to the main metric which is glucose but they can contribute pretty significantly to understanding. Like if you eat you know piece of pizza or something or you have a whole pizza for that matter and then you sit on the couch for two hours watching me but you know that that's an example you to eat a whole personal pizza pizza and sit on the couch for two hours and then see how your blood sugar response. And then we'll prompt you to try the same thing but eat pizza and then go for a walk. Go for twenty five or thirty five minute. Walk around your neighborhood and we'll pull in the activity information that you took that walk and then we'll bring all of those together into two insights where we compare pizza plus no activity with pizza plus activity right right after it and you can start to see what happens. Is your your muscles in your legs. As you're walking are immediately pulling in sugar that's flowing into your bloodstream. From the pizza and using it for energy that is changing the way that your body's metabolising pizza and it is actually improving your overall exposure to high blood sugar and intends to for most people give you a much more favourable response. So it's tiny thing it's a little like kind of intuitively makes sense like you know more activities better. We've been that our whole lives but when you see it in that moment in realize wow that's like kind of a really powerful little micro optimization i can make and you can get a little receipt from levels that shows you. You made a better choice by taking that walk in improve improved response over. Doing nothing appreciate you doing recall here. Bod- cast knife far. I love it was that i graduated two thousand seventeen permission. I heard that john today does pretty cool. Basically two months. After i graduated i started listening to the podcast of the i think there were maybe thirty episodes or something out by that point and i consider myself pretty. Entrepreneurial started a business last year this helped baton at it's hard. I think the find entrepreneurs. I was just looking for entrepreneurial meet ups and i think this is more of an awesome opportunity to talk with other entrepreneurs value is. I mean it's insane like people make feast heights of entrepreneurial insight things are thousand dollars. This is twelve per month. The month is like nothing. So i mean for you personally since you have one on right now i d always avenue figured that'd be good marketing regardless you make sure if people never take it off you have it on your forehead for every zoo as my barcode just future wise fifty years from now. They're talking about putting chips in people's brains right like your boy on like which i would be down to two. I told my wife. I'd be this thing makes a lot of sense to me of like okay. This kind of stepping stone to that at least you wanna know raw. How dictate has everyone to their phone. That's basically on missing your brain now to an extent of you won't drop that but this is something that's on you and that's actually going to help you but i was wondering for you personally. Do you even look at like. Didn't traditional facts in anymore because seems like this is the highest level of understanding your fitness. If you will. I mean unless i'm understanding that wrong like so. Are you even looking at protein fat and scarves and all that other stuff i do. I pay attention to it. But what i do is actually look at ingredients more than i do. Nutrition facts so as you mentioned. You know the nutrition facts don't always translate and so i now know how i respond to most specific foods like corn versus flour verses kostrzewa flour coconut flour. You know all of these different ingredients that will show up on a label as fiber or carbs. I respond differently to all of them. So i'm gonna pick foods that i don't have a personal sensitivity to and i'm going to look at the ingredient label then i'm gonna look at the nutrition facts but i will try to avoid foods that require a nutrition label and what i mean by that. Is that if you're making your own meals and you're making them from whole foods. You don't need a nutrition label on you know on the on. The beans are on the rice. If you're gonna eat that you know what's in it you can understand that that's like entirely carbohydrate. And then the meat that you're using his entirely protein for the most part with some fat. So i guess what i mean is that i try to get further away from foods that are unknown combinations of ingredients and more towards meals that i'm preparing and it's been a very slow process like by no means in my someone that is a great cook and enjoys the process. It's tricky it takes time. It's something i gotta make space for. But i've just realized through this process how important it is to be knowing what's going into my body and controlling. The important thing to me is quality and choosing ingredients that. I know i'm not specifically sensitive to in the secondary thing is trying to hit ratios that work and like the rough ratio for me is. I won't even give numbers. It's more so like i prioritize protein above all and bring in you know. Eat moderate healthy fats. Like lot of avocados cashews and almonds and other nuts. That have high fats chia seeds and then my carbs are fairly low. I tend to keep my carbs. Probably at twenty percent of calories or below and and kind of eating them around workout times mostly then just of green vegetables and fiber is really important. I mean after imagined that you're the top one percent of like standing that eating too that perspective. What happens if the eating wheat thins and they think they're good when you know it's a lot more process but is it really that much better than a bag of doritos right. Maybe maybe it's even worse or like you're saying even if you're cooking. Weapons of people are using certain types of oils. Like you think. Everything's good. But i went to go use avacado oil instead of olive oil. What's the effect like. That's the kind of stuff. I would wanna test with the. Yeah right now. We're measuring a specific molecule glucose. And that is really important. Because it's so rampantly broken in society today like it's such a problem glucose metabolism and insulin. Resistance is is really big problem but you know it's not the only molecule that matters to your point about avocado oil versus olive oil. We wouldn't be able to determine the difference or the quality of those two different foods or wales very effectively with glucose. I mean it could show up for example if you're having like a really bad seed oil of some kind that's causing inflammation in your body like maybe that would show up because the inflammation would induce stress stress would blood sugar to rise but the point is just that glucose isn't everything it's a lot but we've got to get to the point where we can measure multiple molecules in real time to provide the same degree of insight across like a number of factors and i'm just super mystic like i think we're going to be a part of that innovation and bringing that future to reality where we can understand not just sugar but also hormones and other protein molecules in our bodies that really affect health or maybe that was a bad example by me but i was trying to think of something the because both those are really good for you it seems like right overall. Do you have another example where somethings like good bad night. I think you're totally on the right on the nose like with the idea. Is that being able to compare different foods to each other. I mean the brown rice versus white rice example or the corn versus flour tortillas or all of these are great examples and and something that i drove deep into at the beginning of. Everyone does as they come into levels program. We have these things called challenges in the app which make specific recommendations so try a meal with red beans and then the same meal with black beans or exactly. Yeah all of that and then other different factors like vinegar tends to have a digestive slowing effect. That seems which can slow the rate. At which glucose makes its way into the blood. So we'll kind of recommend either. Try taking a shot of apple cider vinegar before you have that meal. Oh dude. I just bought some net and tried to it is like i bought these little detoxing because again my my wife just recently kind of with a couple months vegan and so i've been trying to eat like better like doing spinach. Whatever not that. I ever ate that horrible. But it's like for me like you were saying i'm mike honey. I didn't get all these muscles for no reason he's protein. I need more protein. Like i go get my own me and survey and do all that and it's just like i need the protein but she doesn't really cares much but sorry about I forgot where the vinegar in fact is like. I mean it's tough. I mean for cherry. So maybe like make quick dressing with apple cider vinegar and put it on apple cider vinegar yet so sorry i remember 'cause i tried it before anybody if you tried it before because there's buy one get one free and nine new i york. But but it's interesting to see that effect if the difference between having vinaigrette on like a cold salad with noodles it may affect how fast those needles breakdown and make their way into your bloodstream. So you can see that in understand that like vinegar you know if you like vinaigrette. You can incorporate that into your dietary approach so yeah we just kind of a ton of these. The walking after meals the sleep quality the effects of alcohol which are counterintuitive. Like all of it is coming together into experimentation. That each person comes away with a better understanding of of not just like a very small number of things but also the edge cases the things they otherwise wouldn't have tried and you can see these new tools that that person can use. I was going to say that eventually. I'm glad you brought it up the alcohol thing. You know a patch on me on mike. That'd make me feel better about like okay. If this really did make it that much worse. Like i feel bad. And then i would be like okay. You need stop doing that. The process you're describing is like that's the accountability that this device provides you know it is amazing. The reason i continued to wear it. I mean obviously beyond the branding fees but just like i wear under four hundred. Yeah but i wear it because it is the most amazing accountability device like. Because i know that. If i'm gonna eat that thing that i know i have a sensitivity to tested many times. I'm going to have to see the data and i'm going to have to come to terms of the fact like i just did a little bit of damage to myself. You know it's like. I smoked that cigarette effectively nutrition wise. I don't know it's just like it's small nudge. I needed to not make those little decisions. That go against my goals and everyone's different goals are gonna be different. The way they use the technology will be different but the accountability piece i think is the same for all of us in terms of alcohol so it kind of works is that ethanol is the the molecule in in most alcoholic beverages. That does the work and so your liver can only process alcohol. Ethanol in one way. It has to turn it into triglycerides or turn it into fat. So ethanol can't be used by the cells for energy directly. It has to be converted into fat and then it can be used for energy but it is also a toxin so what seems to happen. Is that your body. Goes into like high alert. When there's ethanol and it stops producing glucose from the liver which is called gluconeogenesis which is where your body's like basically producing when you're not eating it's producing new glucose from the fat and glycogen so the the store glucose in your body and releasing it into your bloodstream. Just make sure that there's energy available for your brain and for your muscles so when you drink alcohol your liver like stops that and starts just producing fat. It's converting the ethanol into triglycerides. What happens is that because your liver stops producing glucose. Your blood sugar starts to drop and this is different for different people and i think are kind of a bunch of different factors like what the alcohol is mixed with. How many carbohydrates are like in the beer along with the alcohol. Or if you're having a cocktail margarita or something like that all of that will have different effects for most people if you just were to have some jenner vodka or whisky or something like that. You would see this effect where your blood sugar will start to actually drop which is confusing for people because they think I thought this is all carbs. I thought i was gonna put me through the roof. I don't think the effect is a good one meaning like i don't think people should be like. Oh it drops my glucose for me because you have a talk radio because what was happening behind the scenes is that like that increase in fat production and specifically triglycerides which are not something we want in high quantities in her blood. So i'm looking forward to being able to obviously produce the real time triglycerides monitor that will allow us to like that data stream but for now. I just think it's a tool. It's got like it has. Alcohol is for definitely stress. Relief for some people in moderate quantities. I certainly am not a person that says never drink alcohol. But i do think that that counterintuitive piece. It's a really fascinating thing to learn about your body. And it's something that's good to know and probably fine in moderation. I'll just give you some advice here. Then what's up. I'm ready if you're into nutrition. You probably should stop smoking. No i don't smoke example. At least we gave that up. It seems like everyone in florida. I know what. I go to south carolina and stuff when i was in college like went there. Everyone's there was smoking. I guess because there's like tobacco region. Get those kids hooked and like they come down to florida nate. Ask all the kids. When i was in college like cigarettes do people don't smoke anymore. Like what are you talking about. Because there's always a balance of like okay. Are you the anal guy. Who's never going to have fun right. But again the main thing that you brought up and i think it's going to be most helpful to anyone over once this easier for everyone to get involved with. Just the accountability factor. I think that's what it all comes down to. If anyone is interested is the best way for them to again. Go to the website and to sign out yet. So level south dot com. Got the wait list right there. We're still imitation. Only but we're expanding quickly you know and and will ultimately be opening this up later this year. So definitely sign up. Stay in the loop definitely check out the blog. We touched on a lot of stuff here on this episode. But if you go to the blog we break it all down sort of article format to help you kind of understand these mechanisms and how they might be affecting day by day and it's only wanted to say thank you for doing this. Episode is their best way for them. Personally reach out to you to say thank you yes. I'm on twitter at joshua's forest with two rs and also on instagram. at josh. dot dot clemente. So you can hit me up. There would love to hear from you. Thanks for coming on josh awesome. See i'm looking at our new. What are we doing now for patriot for group calls. Oh we're doing two a month. Yeah we are in the membership. Price is still the same unbelievable so if you want to become a member. Join our on membership by going to millionaire dash interviews dot com forward slash patriot and again. The price is still the same. I'm not going to keep it this way forever. We're now doing to group calls a month for the price of one you're welcome.

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20 Minutes About Metabolic Fitness - 20 Minute Fitness Episode #198

20 Minute Fitness

37:59 min | 11 months ago

20 Minutes About Metabolic Fitness - 20 Minute Fitness Episode #198

"What's up everyone and welcome to twenty minutes sickness today's going to be all about metabolic health. Now, most of you are probably familiar with diabetes and know about the necessity of monitoring to effectively regulate one's own blood sugar levels in recent years CGM's short for continuous glucose monitoring half grown ever more popular as they allow for continuous monitoring of glucose levels throughout the day and night without the continuous need fingerprinting yet even for healthy non, Diabetic Individuals Monitoring Blood Glucose levels may have its own benefits a high in reoccurring amount of spikes incur costs levels after. Meals has been found to be actually both a symptom and factor in developing chronic metabolic diseases, and often comes with a variety of negative side effects such as headaches and fatigue. So it's a little surprising that C. found growing following among bio hackers and serious health enthusiast started monitor their own scenic response to food exercise sleep and much more one company that has started to cater to the growing market is the start company levels. I've been using levels myself for the past two weeks and on today's show, I will discuss with levels co-founder Josh chronicity how? Can actually help you to improve your own metabolic fitness I Martin, Kessler, and you're listening to twenty minute fitness twenty proudly powered by shape skill that body scanner that is monitoring your body composition and photo realistic three. D. Everyone it's Martin from twenty minutes fitness. I'm here in San Francisco and I'm connected to levels founder Josh, Clementi Josh. Why don't you to be yourself? Martin's great to be on the show I mean on I'm josh, founder of levels and John Interested in bringing metabolic fitness to the mainstream rates, and so what does everyday mean? What is Metabolic Chiasso metabolism? Easy Way to think about metabolism is the set of cellular mechanisms that create energy from our food and environment that. So this is how we power the processes in our body ourselves bringing fuel and they turn it into energy and so metabolic fitness or metabolic health is when those systems are. Operating properly and you have often energy weight balanced performance without excess byproducts and so the way that that we're doing this is using continuous glucose monitoring hardware software analytics to close the loop between actions you take every single day in your daily life and the reactions, your body experiences in particular, the blood sugar response, your body experiences, and so this is this is the level, is that closing loops between action reactions the way that behavior change becomes eating, easy and obvious I, and so we're the first metabolic fitness company greenest market, and how do you define an excess byproduct like at what point you have too much nutrition what is it exactly? So, the some of the easy ways to think about this art glucose itself. So this is a it's sugar essentially, this is a molecule that is the primary energy molecule in the human body so that metabolism functionality that we talked about is driven primarily off of glucose sugar and fat, and so when you're consuming sugar, it releases into the bloodstream and You know this is actually just tipping carbohydrates while they sugars that interest the bloodstream, and so this triggers a cascade of processes, hormonal processes, and those tell your body, how to op sort of appropriate that Lucas, into the cells for for their useless contrived things like weight gain can. Be for muscle expenditure for energy using mechanical loads on a commute for cognitive function in the brain. But those laws get too high. You actually have an inflammatory situation because Lucas is a very reactive molecule it produces what are called free radicals, inflammatory cytokines. I'll sixteen alpha you know these different molecule byproducts of glucose reactions that actually are very inflammatory and can cause breakdown of tissues and skin glaciation, which is right leads to Browning of the skin and wrinkles. All these byproducts that ultimately are are not good for us. So there's a fine balance and glucose is meant to be kept in tight control and that's what we mean by byproducts. Normally unless you have diabetes, you should not have resistance to insulin release right so how does that really matter van for you know everyday use that a non diabetic being that we have been since glucose is the primary energy source for for the modern person we've studied the Post Disease State of Glucose for for many decades. So this is called diabetes typically type two diabetes which a lifestyle driven illness that sets in your body can no longer respond to insulin you can't use glucose in. Your bloodstream effectively, it gets really high toxic levels. So we studied that quite a bit but the thing is that all of us across the metabolic spectrum from healthy to to less healthy are all using net glucose and so there is an optimization function here where because these mechanisms are linear you know it's not it's not like a a threshold where you cross over it, and then suddenly you're unhealthy that's kind of how start thought about a me to think about this metabolic fitness meaning the choices. We make require focus effort and repetition to achieve optimization. So it doesn't matter where you fall on the spectrum metabolic health de Choices you're making today are affecting your hormonal cascade causing qualitative experiences in causing quantifiable to potentially detrimental effects like weight gain, where's performance exercise cognitive decline sort of all of the things that we struggle with our day-to-day are affected by the choices we're making that we don't really connect because we don't have that close loop system. So now by by showing that the person who. Doesn't have diagnose metabolic dysfunction. You can optimize your choices daily see the data in real time, make better ones, and then achieved this sort of metabolic control where instead of having these this roller coaster of spikes and crashes in energy issues, and again wait gained the rollercoaster. We all ride day today that we kind of use our emotions feel way through. You cannot have data and you can use that to achieve this the state of balanced control and you know lower flatter smoother continual on metabolic control. Right. So what is really the goal? Them won't be like a great metabolic health would be where where you don't have any spikes whatsoever is that the goal think about mental fitness as what? What underlies physical fitness mental fitness because energy is is used all of the cells at all times. We we need to have energy available. So it's it's not the case that we we want to minimize glucose levels but we. Do need to provide the appropriate amount of fuel fuel molecules so that our bodies can can tournaments energy in the appropriate way and so It's it's kind of like you have a dynamic system we're sort of like the chemistry set where everything's run by chemicals that are released in response to other chemicals, and so if you just dumped in one chemical enlarge proportion, other chemicals have to be dumped in large proportion to. That and so this is the glucose sort of coming into your bloodstream calling huge increase and insulin has to be released to flood bloodstream to take care of that to try and push it into the cells and in many cases over compensates, and then you have hormones to tell you we're actually going to low now all the blood. Sugars blood, we need more and so that releases hunger hormones that cause you to feel this wave of hunger because of the overcompensation, right you can start to feel tiredness because insulin's for of by storing all that energy. You've now got low energy feel that that wave of fatigue. So it's dynamic system that we're kicking when you when you cause too much of an impulse in one direction or the other. So you know it's not that we are going to get. Rid of all spikes, all increases blood sugar want to shoot for is a modifying behaviors, for example, exerting some energy like walking after meals, timing our meals around sleep for example, exercise sleep stress. Diet being the big levers. We can pull on such that we have continual smooth at there are no spikes and crashes I really spikes not not not in the sense that you will. You will always have a sort of fluctuations as just how the human body works we. Want to remove the real kicks to the system that are causing those those detrimental downstream effects right and can you describe it a bit more how the levels program actually looks like? So you already mentioned that you work with a continuous glucose monitoring, but then what us levels actually then or so the program that we built is a twenty eight day experience where you receive twenty eight days worth of clinical grade continuous glucose sensors. The sensors are worn on the arm they have. A little film it that Measures Electric Chemically the amount of glucose in your skin, and that sensor has a life associated with it. So each one lasts fourteen days were two of these over the course of a month, and throughout that you connect into levels ecosystems. This is AP scores and reports daily weekly and monthly reports allow you to observe interact with your ghost responses to specific choices then optimized. So I bring together all of the the educational material that you've that you've learned. About yourself and how you respond to your choices and shoot for a metabolic trends and patterns that are optimal for your goals, and that's the way it plays out. We sort of break it down into four weeks where week one you just observed sort of baseline. See how you're responding to the choices you already are making daily and then in the second. And third weeks, we encourage some sort of exploration. So look at the boundary cases you how you respond to specific choices, experiments, timing macro nutrient content with vegetables and fats, and proteins all single out sort of meal without you know where you out individually start to see how you personally respond to these choices, and then finally on the fourth week really strive optimizations. Bring all of those lessons learned together make choices in in your Diet Sleep stress exercise routines that can help you try to achieve optimism about control in the they can use that going forward and also we offer scripted options for for continual use. This is really useful for accountability training and true multi-month optimization if you'd like to continue at ongoing basis, right? Within your APP you can lock exercise can lock food, and then you can really see how how your group goes levels actually response to those different lifestyle factors rise were at the the early stages as organization, but a program currently is oriented around the big ones which are a diet and exercise. So you can log this directly into the APP YEP apple, healthcare Google fit so that we can import directly impassively your workouts into the into ecosystem and then you no longer term. We're we're constantly exciting stuff to have to do a stress and sleep because these are very. Very large actors as well if this regulation people so stresses a very profound sort of kind of a hammer on the system that people don't really realize stressful meeting or lack of sleep for example, can induce short-term insulin resistance that can that can really defeat your goals in the longer term in. So seeing how these choices, how your sleep data is affecting, you starting to string together comparisons using our futures are zone scores to help you understand you know five dollars asleep versus nine hours. You're gonNA have a completely different day in terms of processing your dietary choices and the same goes for walking stressful meeting. You may want to do but a mindfulness to bring your glucose levels down. So you don't kind of have this major increase in maybe started as fat that type of micro optimization, right and who do you actually see using really that first initial program for twenty eight days for anyone who wants to know themselves better. So anyone who wants understand their bodies and how their lifestyles affecting them and their long-term goals. He's kind of the health seekers health optimize irs long-term. You know those are the early adopters people who already as soon as they know about the product they say I've been waiting for that, right? Away to to really understand how their choices are affecting them immediately rather than days weeks months in the future and we're starting off in this kind of premium space where you're very similar to other hardware and software blazing Peleton. Mirror. These other areas where you know you're using a really elegant user experience plus hardware plus software obviously the comparison with other wearables like aura and ultimately we're going to we're going. To be bringing this down into the into the mainstream in kind of moving into space where metabolic health is the thing people think about prior to thinking about achieving fitness or achieving mental fitness right? You WanNa, you start to realize that you've got to kind of optimize the the terrain that you're standing on before you can start to build a solid structure and and that's that's way we wanna think about mental fitness. Can you give us like maybe some examples of? What have been like some lessons that Nelson Fuses have been drawing those initial couple of weeks program. Some of the stuff is is quite intuitive and others are are very counterintuitive. Self of the most profound research that's been done as a result of continuous glucose monitoring becoming more available is on non diabetic people in the the sort of research factor is showing the personalization between individuals. So there was a study in two, thousand, eight or two, thousand, fifteen rather took eight hundred people who did not have diabetes but. The US continuous glucose monitors on them showed that two people can eat the exact same foods have equal and opposite responses. So in this case, it was two people each ate a banana and a cookie made with meat and one person at a large spike from the banana, and it was totally flattened a cookie and the other person had the exact opposite response. So this shows that there's actually no one-size-fits-all solution. So individuals may be genetic it may be microbiome, maybe stress or body composition all of these factors can come. Together to determine how you respond point is, is that if you're going to go about making choices that you think are healthy, you kind of need this at in order to able to be confident, and that's what we're seeing primarily as people are realizing that specific dietary choices I'm making can be optimized for me. They're eliminating things that counter-intuitively don't work for they might might have been doing things like, for example, eating oatmeal every morning because that's know Google, it's it's typically top three on the healthy breakfast foods and Also people are are are doing the daily for decades in some cases, put on levels and realize that that's causing a pre diabetic blood sugar excursion for me and ultimately two hours later on crashing back down and feeling extremely low energy, and that's what I'm snacking and so they removed that and shift to a to a meal that has maybe a more balanced content. Maybe they're just adding some almond butter to bring up the fat protein and balancing out that sort of glucose excursion. Another big one is just moving. More. So realizing that taking walk after an indulgent meal can do a dramatic amount to to modify your body's response to that to that meal because your your muscles are consuming glucose in real time and so seeing the effects of walking balanced meals experimenting with new macronutrients, the whole fat protein carbohydrate balance of waiting processed foods, and then playing with the timing people are moving their meals away from bedtime in order to allow themselves to come down stop sending energy to the digestive system allow themselves to achieve more. restful sleep seeing the effects of alcohol. For example, it's all. It's all sort of these these large scale lessons that are happening the individual basis every day. Yes. That study in an also thought it was really really fascinating because they have different charts, different types of foods, right? Like you mentioned oatmeal but also some hike licey make foods like bragging on which has literature G. I off seventy one. But then you see the response, right? Some people go as low as twenty and go all the way up to two hundred. which is crazy. High, right. So it's like something that you can know about you unless you've actually gone through the testing and that that's really what sold me because initially I was like if it skeptic frighten you not like if you just go by the literature, you can okay. Should stay away from anything that's high mix of meow no, no flour no grad no pasta no starchy vegetables like potatoes at Sarah. We all respond differently to it and it's like you said that really matters what your lifestyle is like you. Know like I really active or you know like I I saw like in your own private facebook group. Some people when as crazy as doing like thirty pushups just before breakfast just a metabolic response to it, which is exactly no I prefer to. I, prefer to go for a walk myself but you know it's it's it's interesting because the the advice we've always heard is eat healthier workout more right and that's just blank bland. It doesn't really make any sense not anchored to anything specific but when you eat A meal something that you enjoy. Let's just say it's a it's a personal pizza eat that meal and then you sit on the couch, you get this blood sugar response is GONNA trigger inflammatory downstream cascade. Your body's going to store a bunch of that fat is going to be you're gonNA feel terrible you're GONNA be very tired shortly thereafter now the next day go out and eat that same pizza and then go for a walk just twenty thirty minutes walk around the block look at the beautiful sites come back. And look at the score two hours later, and your body will completely modify its response to that to that meal, and that's really profound for people who may be don't want to go the route of completely eliminating everything living this sort of stoic lifestyle where they have no indulgences they can now see that there are ways that you can you. Can. You know sort of micro optimizations actually have a large effects kind of the eighty twenty rule of moving a bit more on it sounds just like a kind of A. Legend or No lifestyle had thing but reality is that has has basis in data now and to your to your comment about like I. think that some people will take this very extremely. They'll sort of do a hundred push ups before exercise or whatever but others they'll just realize all I have to do is get up and move around for a few minutes and and this is going to. Now give them that sort the data that will push them across the motivation boundary to to actually go out and make that happen and so you know the the studies continue to roll in showing the differences between like you said, you know bread response. For example, you know it's interesting because we all know that read is somewhere on the glycemic index, but the thing about the price index is. It takes all this diversity individuality and it normalized that one hundred. So let's say you and I we a slice of bread I go to two hundred milligrams per deciliter, which for those who aren't familiar that's that would be a diabetic electric response. I've tested this I know that that's where I go in. Let's say you go to one hundred ten. So you have a much better response. But the way that the glycemic index works is it normalizes both of those to a one hundred out of one hundred. So around normalize them compared to Lucas which which is a one hundred out of one hundred. So for me read would be forced to one hundred for you. It might be forced to eighty four Ryan and they take the average of all of that and and that's how they. Index but you've now like blended out all the individuality. So now people are using the index and saying Oh. Yeah it's just it's it's high glycemic or meeting by CMEC. It's totally it's totally fine. I know how to to eat based off of this, but the reality is that their individual, not an average and so they're essentially causing themselves to dramatic results or consequences at because they're using these very blunt instruments, likely scenic index, and so we hope to be able to bring a large amount of nuance into this conversation say your personal placing index. is much different than that population average and that's perfectly fine. Are you ready to your personal pricing mechanics and at at what point do you actually now that I don't know you have high blood sugar let's say hypoglycemia where it's like to the point where you really feel for like my case, for example, I hap- doing the test phase a pizza and my you know slicing inex- went two hundred, sixty something an felt retired Asta Woods and then another time though I had some ice cream and a wind up two, hundred, forty and I. Did Not see actually tired. So I was wondering like what point do I really have my limits you know like what point isn't reading reach? Yeah. So you know there's a lot of research on the specific detriments. Of course, as we study the space more and more we're going to better understand what optima looks like. You know we don't want to tell people to strive for normal normal unfortunately in the United States is is metaphorically dysfunctional about twelve percent of US adults are metabolic healthy, and so that means that we need to not. Just shoot for population averages but but for again, the optimal direction and so you know that that's a personal sensation in a way of feeling our way through diet has been what we've been. You know we've been doing this forever is eating our way through life and then kind of looking back and saying I i. felt okay I kind of feel a little tired now that maybe that was I didn't get enough sleep last night or maybe it was now I ask data that drives that because there's so much nuance like know the the ice cream. ICE CREAM IS A. Essentially a mixed meal. So it has a lot of protein on fat in a lot of carbohydrates is a ton of energy in that meal that also matters quite like what is the combination like you have some protein with car so you just eating pio yeah. So right so that you know the thing is is that it may have a more prolonged response in your system where you elevate because there is quite a bit of. Sugar in there in the fact that make you can affect the euro spots there. So you may elevate and stay elevated for longer versus a a meal like oatmeal for me where I see a very sharp spike in an immediate crash in my body just instincts response to that, and that crash is where I feel that intense fatigue and so the whole background of this company is that I originally had extreme fatigue issues. So my my my day to day was extremely challenging I'm across the level to trainer. I was working at SPACEX at the time on support systems and doing all this work in the in the world of human performance and every day I can barely make it through my meetings two o'clock in the afternoon I'm literally like desperate for a coffee in order to make the next one and these waves of of fatigue or so counterintuitive to me. I was struggling with weight. I. Didn't ever have an issue that was obvious to me from the outside and yet when ultimately got a continuous glucose monitor which took over a year by the way get one and I put it on just as an experiment I. saw that my blood sugar I was riding this extreme wave of spikes and crashes all day every day my blood sugar would elevate into the diabetic or diabetic because. I would then Crash Back Down I. Feel Hungry I feel shaky I feel tired irritable and the night go and I you know snacking for for another meal and all over game and that realization completely change my life right led to let's levels but it also leads me personally renovating my approach to lifestyle and understanding that these these choices we make individually. There's not a lot of symptom associated with them in real time. It's what you experienced two hours later that you completely decouple from from that dietary choice you're like Oh this is this is different I was two hours ago while it's actually you're you're still riding that wave you know that that was a consequence of meal. So I, think it's a lot a lot. Of It is personal but there is certainly an optimal range to shoot for, and as we continue to grow our data set and dig into a deeper deeper were going to be able to provide some some really strong individual recommendations through the the APP the APP ecosystem, right and every day on that yet been locking you you metabolic responds you also get a score. From levels. That's right. So we have a couple of scores were developing and the key is we want people to understand a how a specific choice you may affects you in the following hours as your body responds metabolize it also that choices don't happen in a vacuum so they affect each other. I gave that example of you know eating a pizza in lying on. The couch versus going for a walk. So we've developed a scoring system which actually Zona fi are like basically groups choices that affect one another or actions that affect one another and provides a score for the entire region of times that make sense. So that that pizza with nap afterwards versus the pizza, the walk it will detect that you had exercise and. That the meal and group those score them together and that way you can superimpose these choices against each other see all the factors that are at play zone scores really important to help you to understand specifically how groups of decisions can modify one another. You can string choices together to improve the patterns trans, and then that goes up with our metabolic fitness score, which takes all of the zones throughout the day and provides you with more of an overall grade for How how controlled has bent throughout that twenty four hour period it's this is. The one with the mental fitness score where you want to know string together a series positive zones and individual choices in that will improve your mental fitness score for the day and these string together multiple days of you know, sort of a streak of metabolic control and ensure one hundred percent on the kind of gave is the experience, but it really is anchored in specific choices and low hanging fruit. The small decisions you make every day and and so it's driving people start thinking about this in of grade scale terms as opposed to in these clinical. Billick grams per deciliter type terms. So what types of choices that's one have to make to scorn at about it's it is skulls eighty, two, hundred, eight, you know it really depends on the individual in most cases where right depending on how your body is responding to choices you're making you certain people will have to do different things and ultimately what the score is looking at is these complex micro Vera. Variables of how your body or glucose curve actually means. So there are things variability, which is the number of spikes and crashes. In a period of time, there's the target range. So we of course, WANNA stay inside of a certain threshold where the body is most comfortable. So anytime, outside of that range is working against your score and the amount of times the area under the curve works against you that rate of change of that peak the or the peak that you achieve all of these like you. Know Analytical Little little variables of how your body's responding come together to drive that score and so You know the way what I personally choose to do is I strive for very low variability. So I want to minimize the number of peaks in crashes in my in my day. So very spiky chart that's associated with a lot of influence inflammation, cardiovascular outcomes. It's something that I think. Is is kind of a newer vector. We've always studied fasting glucose and average ghost. But now that you have real time data, you can see the variability. So I personally choose to shoot for fewer spikes, lower spikes, and then I really try and stay within the target range one, hundred percent of the time if you can achieve that those two things minimal variability making choices that provide. SMOOTHING, controlled response rather than spiky sharp one. That's how you get up into the higher ranges for the medical fitness score and is something like that. Actually achievable with you know diets that is not local s One of the fascinating things is a again. There's so much personal variability. It's hard for me to be able to say that every person can achieve right scores with every type. Of Diet I'm not entirely sure where where that sorta falls, I, think there's probably an optimal diet for the individual but you know for example, Casey means when my co founders she's medical doctor from Stanford she's all plant based. So she eats a one hundred percent plant based diet very, very high in carbohydrates. She has some of the best metabolic fitness scores of the entire data. Set so not just on the team and You know she achieves this through very focused on honing die. She uses that data daily to improve your choices and she's always eating mixed meals. She's staying very active, and so she's going to eat a large carbohydrate Otniel. She's also going to have Tahini Kado or beans or something that brings in that fat and fiber in help the. Body to maintain a very treasured measured response. So I would say that that, right, there is a prime example of someone who is eating almost exclusively carbs and he certainly just getting protein and fat in there, but it is primarily giant carbohydrate and yet achieving exceptional mental fitness course and and she has a very strong signals of overall metabolic So it's you know it's certainly. Not The case that levels requires everyone to sort of give up the carbs entirely it is just that whatever dietary philosophy someone subscribes to. They should be using their own personal data to grounded in. You know how their body truly response rather than a philosophy at large right though I guess if somebody was like Dying Fast Food and Soda, it would be very difficult them extra do have. The processed food is one of the quickest ways to get a a poor score and that's where I. Think levels is really profoundly useful for society at large guy is kind of touched on some of the numbers but we have metabolic epidemic. In this country, we are ninety million people are pre diabetic, thirty, five million or are a type, two diabetic and all of the downstream consequences. Heart Disease Cetera you know are coming from this and it's because the feedback cycles are so long. So if you're using the bathroom scale to determine what your health standing on the scale waiting till, you gain twenty or thirty pounds before you start to think about it, that's way too long cycle. You're not connecting it civic actions if you go to a fast food restaurant and you load. Up on the whole nine yards soda and French fries and a big meal you're GonNa see a blood sugar response. That is that is extremely detrimental in real time and this has happened you may people in our program have seen exactly this and it really reframed that debate in your mind it's no longer someone giving you advice to change behaviors. It's your body now telling you to change. Your behaviors because that you compare that to a home cooked meal in it's just night and day, and so I think this is really gonNA shine sunlight on these areas of our processed food supply that that people rely on some cases because they think they can just jump on the treadmill and reverse it, but it's really not the case of the damage is done in real time. Right. Actually, speaking endemic, they have been quite a few obstacles in in recent weeks that also mentioned levels. Any tell me more about how somebody could actually currently benefit of that was during the earn pandemic question I, you know the pandemic itself Covid? Is it certainly what's interesting one because people are asymmetrically experiencing a poor outcomes who already have met about this function so For example, in Mexico their forty three of covid deaths already had existing diabetes and there is definitely a correlation there, and so specifically, metabolic health seems to be tied into the covid outcome, and so it's definitely a good idea to try to improve these metabolic markers. Another thing that that blood sugar control specifically is very closely tied to his inflammation and immunity. So. In, in the the context of extremely high blood sugar, the immune system essentially cannot function and I don't want to deepen science because it is certainly not my expertise, but it certainly affects the way your body can respond to pathogens, viruses, and so that in combination with the the inflammatory response of the body to hide high. Glucose. Means that you know we should be making choices that improve our immunity particularly right now and I. Think the way to do this is hone diet exercise choices take walks after meals remove processed foods sleep seventy nine hours try to bring you know balancing control into your blood sugar in your metabolism at large, and that will definitely benefit. It seems the covert outcomes you know. So I believe that that was a really good to get an understanding of how your body is responding to your choices and by optimizing those. Potentially set yourself up for ideally a better outcome if you should have to battle cove it also another interesting factor where essentially any whole-body inflammatory sickness can can bring on large blood sugar elevations. So it's it's. The Glucose elevation response to stress as normal physiological response and So it's sign of inflammation and it tends to kind of predate symptoms by settled as many cases. So if someone's coming down with an they'll oftentimes see an increase in their blood sugar response as one of the early signs. So this is something we're we're thinking quite a bit about right now is kind of digging into is it possible that coast could be an early warning indicator in the way that you know right now I think companies like aura are. Doing the same thing with Harvey ability you know in this is not say that levels is going to be diagnostic tool, but it could be an early sign your body's fighting off some sort of inflammatory attack and in enacting very useful for people to to know obviously. Interesting. So going back to levels where where you're currently at it's not Saudi available in the market yet it's still in Beta right now we're running a closed Beta right now and it has been ongoing for about about seven months in and the goal there is to essentially do a small high-intensity, very close feedback loop approach to our programming where people use the levels program will software and just kind of guide us in the direction. That they would like product features develops we understand is behavior change become easy and actionable for people, and so we've had about a thousand people go through that data data thus far a thousand people signed up about seven hundred gone through and and you know we're starting to get really strong signals that people are understanding their own metabolic situation and they're making changes. As early as we want, you don't really renovating their lifestyles and so that's The indicator that looking for, and so we're starting to spill out for our our kind of slow slow launch, and then ultimately are major launch in the fall timeframe. What have you learned so far? Maybe anything that was unexpected. Perhaps you know what's expected is how strong the demand for something like levels truly is given that we were kind of in stealth prior to January, we now have twenty, three, thousand people on our wait listen we really have done very little if any marketing testing people are resonating with this in a way that is I think it's absolutely a good sign because I truly believe society needs this, but it's also just very interesting not expected how quickly the appetite is expanding where people see. Another individual using this and learning from their own body in real time and they just desire immediately I need to have that like I need to understand I have this feeling that I'm making choices that maybe aren't working for me, and this is the fifth tool that I really need to know once for all people want confidence and so that's very inspiring I think you know something that. Ultimately, we're going to be looking back and saying one day we're gonNA, treat metabolic dysfunction. The way we did kind of the OPIOID epidemic of of the years we're GONNA look at it as something that was a it was a hidden but epidemic scale problem, and we're GONNA be able to shine some light on it with this and I think people are ready for the appetite is there One thing. That's of course holding back is that CGM's at being Nassir restricted to us about half diabetes, right? It's a prescription device that makes it very hard to attain for somebody that doesn't have diabetes historically there. So the technology was developed for the management of diabetes and that exceptional people with diabetes need to know their blood sugars in real time. It's a very immediate concern for them to to understand that, and now it ran into a point where the technology is. The cost down in the supply chains have gone up so much more available. So Bill is the access pathway. So we have a telehealth partner partner network, and all of our customers receive telehealth consultation with one of these physicians are licensed in their states, and so everyone receives a prescription for the use of these medical devices, these these clinical great monitors. So we are we're leveraging technology that was originally developed for in the management of diabetes, but bring into the space wellness performance optimization, and that accessibility is is really a key factor for for levels I personally i. Struggled with fatigue ultimately found that I was borderline or full full blown, pre diabetic, and the key for me was getting my hands on this technology that gave me real time awareness and that access sort of issue of not already having diabetes was a major blocker. took me again close to a year to figure this out, and that's a that's a really a big problem. So yeah solving that access issue is one of our main concerns, and then of course, the the action ability of the data is the. Next thing and you think the regulatory environment is going to change anytime in the near term future you know you're not going to be required to prescriptions uses John Deere optimistic I see a lot of great trans in the in the world you know both in telehealth space where we're seeing some improvements in regulation availability of Telehealth, which I think is a great thing and then also just generally we we see technologies working their way from therapeutic space out into the mainstream quite often and I'm very optimistic. That the next two to three years, we're going to have not just one but many options for sort of a direct to consumer continuous glucose option for the hardware, and so you'll levels were working with all the next nation manufacturers and and really seeing some exciting things at signal. I think what a bright future ahead for this technology, and hopefully that's also going to bring up the scale of the types of devices are gonna be available because right now on insurance at compass worried, they asked quite expensive. It's it's one of those things where a technology like this, it's developed for the management of illness. It requires quite a bit of an efficacy trial effort, and so it's very expensive and the companies need to recoup their investment in. That's kind of what we're seeing right now. But of course, with the mechanisms of supply and demand as more people uptake this this technology and start using in their daily lives. That's GONNA. Expand. Can have great market effects. I think where the technology will just come down by draw dramatic orders of magnitude improvement that will make it more available to all of us and also just improved the quality consumerization of the technology. So yeah. All good things that more people that use this the better it's going to be a long-term. Estimating and It's our listeners wanted to learn more about well a levels and be metabolic health. What will be some good resources to learn more about beverly. So one of the big things we're focused on at the company is education and just helping people understand why metabolism is important why you should care and the best place to do that is level south dot com slash blog. We write a lot about it in a lot about specifics of how this can affect cognitive function weight gain everything to pcs. Sexual dysfunction, and so I highly recommend going there and starting to read that, and then of course, level dot com, you can sign up for a newsletter and join our weightless, and then you can follow along on social media at unlock levels, and if you WANNA die in deeper his stomach, any book that you would recommend to reap there's really good ones I. Think one one of my favorites personally is the Diabetes Code in Obesity Code both by Jason Fong. These are these are exceptionally good. I think personalized medicine by Tokyo, is another great one there are wired to eat by Rob Wolf is actually the book that got me. Very. Interested in Measuring Glucose for myself, and so there are quite a few of these books that have started to open up the the problem space of the hormonal theory of energy. Balance Which Means Glucose and insulin drive you know many many processes, detrimental effects, and also how this technology can be used to get yet to get a better understanding of your personal. Relationship to these these serious bekker's awesome. Yeah. We make sure to of course, all of those in our show notes while thanks so much for coming on the show Josh really appreciate it Martin as great conversation was that was fascinating compensation with levels co-founder Josh. Clementi, with Daphne Stewart the very early stages of research intent adoption of CTN's by while at least the non diabetic population. I'd say however there Stephanie Growing Body of research that is pointing towards the benefits of maintaining law class, cemig variability, and overall lower glucose average of less than one hundred milligrams per deciliter, and why many of us may already be following a low carbohydrate diets such as payroll Kito you will still in. For a surprise, their about varying responses to sometimes well, supposedly healthy foods such as steel codes or that cauliflower pizza crust. In my own case, one of my habits that are have already started to adjust is the amount of berries that are half with my breakfast in the morning as even though they range in lower class seeming range than Say Bananas Mangoes Pineapples etc that Fructose, to metabolize rather quickly, which easily leads to early morning spikes in my blood glucose beyond one hundred, fifty milligrams per deciliter, which is quite high. Now, over the next few weeks, I'm still super keen on doing more tests around certain foods and also combinations such as adding more fiber to my meals with say. Especially for those meals that heavy on cops now could I number wearing a long-term? Well, yes and no maybe not all the time on an off Daphne and 'cause it's easy to get obsessive about it and that's to quite expensive. But I would say that definitely a very meaningful tool of discovery and accountability similar to that of tracking your nutrition for month or two, you set to learn a ton about your current habits, which really empowers you to make meaningful adjustments. Later. Hopefully, we'll see though that the cost of. Comes Down with great adoption over time especially among the non diabetic groups right and maybe even doctrine insurances will start prescribing it to risk groups 'cause it can definitely alter their lifestyle choices if they actually know what's going on as always, you will find the food show notes with resource links to some of the research we've talked about today on twenty dot fitness, and anyways, what are your thoughts regarding glucose monitoring? Let's on twitter or instagram. You can find us at shape twenty fifth and you can also find me personally at Kessler I. Oh, I'm Kessler and you're listening to twenty minutes fitness.

diabetes Lucas Martin Clementi Josh Google United States CGM co-founder John Deere Kessler Josh chronicity tiredness founder San Francisco facebook
94 | C9 Takes On NYC, Cocaine, & the Cold

Best Case Worst Case

32:52 min | 2 years ago

94 | C9 Takes On NYC, Cocaine, & the Cold

"Seeing the wreckage that these fenders make their own family and their own friends, and those people in court, and they're suffering. I had the ski bunny hat with braids down the side, so cute. If you're addicted to true crime like we are, you need to check out the weather channel's newest TV series storm of suspicion, which airs Sunday night at eight eastern seven central. It is gripping storm. Suspicion has everything you love from your favorite true crime shows and documentaries like deceipt, murder, mystery piecing together clues, but with a clever twist of weather in a way, only the Weather Channel could possibly do. It did a hurricane initially cover up then help solve a murder. How did rain puddle lead to a murder conviction? Watch to see how the weather can help suspect, say under the radar and also lead to their downfall. Dr. Elizabeth Austin world renowned forensic meteorologist will have you looking at crime in a whole new way as she shows you how investigators us mother nature to solve some of the most difficult cases don't miss storm of suspicion every Sunday night through November at eight eastern seven central only on the Weather Channel. Hello and welcome to best case. Worst case. I'm your host Francey Hague's former state and federal prosecutor. You will all notice that Jim Clementi is not here his booming voices missing. He is filming his episode that he wrote for criminal minds season that will air in November, so don't miss it. It's gonna be great. In the meantime, it is an all girl episode today. I am so pleased to be joined by Maureen O'Connell of be retired marine. I can't tell you in every you're on best case. Worst case we get so many people writing in saying, please have Maureen back. Please have worrying back lease have morning back again. So I have listened to everyone and we are having you back in excited to talk to you. Thanks for coming back. Oh, you're welcome. Thank you. You so sweet. So we're talk about a best case or worst case that you've had in your career. Do you have a case in mind? First of all? Yes, I do. Great. In wear in your career, what time period in your career were you when you got this particular case. Case it was in the early part of my career. I was brand new to narcotics and it was very exciting. I was so thrilled to be working with the squad c-9 as it was known in Los Angeles in it was just the most magical squad ever beyond in your life and it's a once in a lifetime thing, I was actually talking to one of my colleagues the other day, and he said, you know, there are so many people that even go through the FBI or wherever and never have the type of experience that we had on that squad will tell me what c-9 meets I'm intrigued was the ninth criminal squad or designator? Nine just meant it was a criminal squad, and we were. We did cartel level narcotics, and we worked really hard fast in hard, and it was great. I was the only woman I'm squad and man we just, we just made. We made a difference. You know, we know. I don't know. I didn't do many drug cases when I was in the US attorney's office only a few when I was in training. Handled some lower very lower level drug cases when I was DA. But what I remember about federal drug cases is the amount of time that the agents and the prosecutors spent in wire rooms doing paperwork, talking to the judge and doing surveillance all stuff that you know if you do it in a five minute block on television looks really exciting, but is really, in fact a grind and difficult work. And it's late night. Weekends is not like drug dealers running around only between nine and five Monday to Friday to write in. It's it's very rewarding work. I mean, the first time that you take, you know a hundred pounds of methamphetamine off the street. You know that it's a big deal and you know that a lot of people are going to be safer and the same holds true for heroin or cocaine or anything. And so we did a lot of high level stuff in in addition to all the things that you mentioned, we worked a ton with informants, which is its own. Were course, I mean, all the things you mentioned. Are sufficient what we call sophisticated techniques, but their techniques that really chew up a ton of your time and sometimes some of your soul. Well, of course, it has. Did you ever were one of the things when I was a state prosecutor got some great training once about sunning called clan labs, which I've never forgotten means clandestine labs. So it's basically people cooking meth where I'm from Georgia in the north Georgia mountains. Specifically, I'm not from the north Georgia mountains, but in the north Georgia mountains, people were famous for cooking math in their clan labs in their trailers in their mobile homes. Did you ever deal with any clandestine labs that you had to take down will that was clan labs that's actually a separate group because so many people were getting hurt in with those explosions. It's so dangerous, so dangerous for everyone involved. So we had special teams that if we suspected it was a clan lab, we would call the team out of this group called Elian packed yet his that taken down. Clan. Labra suspected clan lab requires everybody gear up. You've got have has met suits. It is such a volatile situation to go entities places to try to rescue people who may be in their hurt from hailing the fumes any second. The entire place can explode. And there were certainly lots of examples of that happening. So I can understand why that was a specialty team that you guys use, but it sounds like you were doing high level cases, especially if you're using formats, but we were on the street every day all day every day and we were in the inland empire. So we're out of Los Angeles out of Los Angeles division in Los Angeles is just as really cool place to be an FBI agent. I mean, we do fantastic work. We don't necessarily get the resources that other divisions get were so far away from the mothership or from FBI headquarters. But we learned to do a lot with less than I am. The key element to that is working really well with local law enforcement state and other law enforcement entities. So we did that very well, and I'll tell you. What France is hard. As we worked, we played even harder and we just had more fun than should be allowed. Well, I think that's a great experience to have as a as a law enforcement officer because so much of what we do is Graham so much of the work is grim. And when you're dealing with arresting people and go into trial and seeing the wreckage that these offenders make their own family and their own friends and those people in court and they're suffering, you never really get a sense of victory. When you put them in jail, you feel satisfied for a job well done, but there's just so much sorrow in the wake of crime. So it's nice to hear that there are some good moments and obviously had a great team. So let's talk about where you were. When you got this particular case that we're talking about, you said you were working with c-9 was relatively early in your career. Tommy how the case Cantu? It was one of my first couple days assigned to this new squad that I was so excited to be on, and apparently a call come in that. Someone recognized something odd about a shipment that was going out. They wanted to pay cash, you know, all the re regular red flags that you would find in a nefarious shipment of some sort. So they said, hey, O'Connell go out and check it out. So I went out there by myself and I met with the person who worked at the little small shipping yard, and he said, yeah, I'm shipping the stereo equipment to Jamaica New York and something just isn't right. He just kept saying something right something right, and I said, all right, so I called and I got a warrant for it. It took me four five hours just to get the warrant. You know, doesn't happen in five minutes. We start opening up the stereo equipment and low and behold, it's kilo of cocaine after kilo of cocaine after kilo of cocaine, ninety kilos Jane. That's Hugh, yes, that is a lot of cocaine. There was a ton of cocaine, and it was it was in the mid nineties. So we I'm all excited. So I called my. A good friend on the squad Ruben and I was grouping you gotta get out here. There's so much cocaine. You can't believe it. So he laughed and he said baptism by fire baby. So I said, yes, it is Baptist by fire. So Ruben comes rolling out. We look at everything. Now we've got the, you know, not the cavalry, but we've got some people rolling up in local police show up. Everybody does, and we decide that we're gonna do what's known as control delivery to New York to Jamaica, New York. So explain what that is a control delivery. So the bad guys think that it's being delivered exactly the way that they were delivering it, but reality we take possession of it and we keep possession of it until it lands, and then we try to set something up to catch them. Now, are you going to take a obviously you're gonna take the same shipping container or duplicate the same shipping container to send this? Are you actually going to fly the cocaine across the country? Yes. So you're not going to substitute it for something fake? No, we're not urinate ninety eight key. Lows, cocaine, correct, and put him back in the box and fly with it. Like in the cargo plane? No, we got a c. one thirty from the military. So you're not actually sending it to the carrier anymore. You are actually the carrier now, correct. But at this point we, this is, you know, mid nineties, so you don't have all the same tracking things you have. Now, however, we worked with FedEx to show that the shipment was actually you could call in and ask, or I think you may have been able to do something on the computer. I don't, but it was rudimentry at best and you able to see that it's into Pika, Kansas. It's here, it's creeping across the country. So to speak, where we're flying. We flew either late that night or the next morning we flew into LaGuardia. We had the port police meet us there. They got us out. We took all the cocaine and all the stereo equipment, and we brought it to a a big loading dock that apparently was run by Teamsters. I have a lot of teams. Stirs in my family. So I meet up with a detective from NYPD who's on the task force with the FBI agents there I made him. He's fantastic, and I've got Ruben with me and I have to LAPD detectives with me. So this is this is a major operation. I mean, this is something that you have had to fly cocaine across the country, get cooperation from FedEx to help you make it look to any of the dealers waiting for the shipment that the shipment is coming. You got NYPD port people on the other end that this is a major operation sounds to me and I even had my disc man with me in the c one thirty. And the one thing I didn't realize was that it's so cold in the back of a c one thirty and you can't hear anything even if you if you had your ear buds in full blast. You can't hear anything. And the other thing that I found interesting was I grew up in Chicago, but now I'm out in LA and I've been here couple years. I didn't have any warm weather gear in its dead. A winner in New York. The only thing I had was fabulous. Pray ski-wear which wasn't. I didn't think it was going to serve me well, but it's all I had. So I had a beautiful like metallic blue origin with silver stripes in it. You know, tonight, padded shoulders grave for this loves not too much for an FBI. Yeah. Then I had the ski bunny hat with like braids down the side. So cute. The only winner boots I had the really winner ones where my upper ski boots with a little bit of fringe on it. Essentially, I looked ridiculous everyone. If I can get a photograph out of Maureen of her in that gear, I will post it and then my partner in crime Ruben is one of the best agents you'll ever meet. And he is just flat out. Awesome. And we love him any one of the funniest guys you'll ever meet your life? He's a lot shorter the me. So I'm a really tall woman and he's a not so tall guy. So I always told him we should go on the road is Sonny share, but that was funny. But anyhow, the only jacket he had was a Miami Dolphins, Jay. From the eighties because we're in the nineties. So it was peach light, green huggy Grizzle when will stood out so badly? Yes. When we got off the plane, the port authority in the NYPD detective just looked at us like, oh my God. Are you guys kidding me? You gotta be for had to wonder if you were actually agent. We look ridiculous. So what's the plan your get you get there? You've got your shipment in. It's also stereo equipment, cocaine in it, what? What happens? So we take it over to this big warehouse. It's run by the Teamsters and we're gonna put it on a pallet. We're gonna pal, ties it put a tracking device on the bottom, which was brand spanking new. Nobody was even doing that back in those days. This was hot off the press. So we put all the stuff on a pallet in. We're getting the big role of of the sheer Platt or the clear plastic in we're wrapping it. So we're wrapping the palette and all the sudden these Teamster guys come rolling up on a golf cart and they're mad. So they come up and the it was funny because the LAPD guys. I mean, we don't deal with that much here. But you do in Chicago VC all the time and you do New York. So these two teams guys come running up and confronts us in their like, are you guys Teamsters what you do in your Eskenazi questions in these LAPD guys who I'm sure had jet lag as we all did. They just kinda stood there and simultaneously than NYPD detective. And I just start yelling right back in them. He was saying the same thing, they're saying we're parroting right back to them and they're like, that's all. He had to say goodbye. So they got on a thing and they take off and we just crack up and I was like, oh my God, you guys it so funny. Have you heard of Madison read? 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Find your perfect shade at Madison dash free dot com. Madison Reed is honoring best case. Worst case listeners with this ten percent off plus free shipping offer on your first caller kit. If you use promo code best-case, that's promo code best-case. So we get into the palette. We get the tracking device on it in now it's going to go to Jamaica New York. So we drive it over there. We have it delivered in a truck goes right toward supposed to go. Now we're gonna sit on it. It's gotta be a bad moment though. Maureen explain how that makes you feel. I mean to have a pallet like that of cocaine, which is a dangerous drug, you deliver it to bad people. Presumably it's a lot of it. You had to be nervous. What goes wrong and you just lose it. We're always nervous, but we hit the delivery was could still controlled at this point. We control the person who dropped it off who had them signed for it who was then inside the building. When they came out, we met, you know, far away, we left a person there to watch it. Obviously, we never left lost sight of any of those entrances. The. Whole time. So it was a business and it was like a shotgun business, meaning it's an old industrial area and it's a long, long, narrow structure. So one level. So anyhow, we're shooting right about someone Belan out with the cocaine worrying away. We're, we're worried about someone coming to pick it up and we're worried about what's going to happen, but we're doing everything we can to control everything. We can't control and we're just dealing with the rest. So we've got a federal prosecutor like you that was on call and we were dealing with them. Anyhow, a whole day goes by twenty four hour shift. Nothing the next day's gone by and it's like freezing bitter cold and I'm sitting out there my up risky where with blankets on hiding in a car. So this goes on for almost two whole days. That doesn't sound glamorous. Oh, it was absolutely not glamorous at all. There was no place to eat around there. There's no place to really go for break. It was it was awful, but it's one of those things for every you know, for every bit of glory, you kinda gotta go. Through the drudge is a little bit. So we're sitting there. We're sitting there and finally we got movement. We got, we're using Nextel's at the time. So we got movement. We got somebody coming up. They're looking to low the pallet odd to the back of this truck. Everybody's, you know, there's also there's a hustle and bustle of activity. Peop- the back. We see the door start to open. The truck is about to come out. It's loaded up. We can see the pallet on the back, the things paying nine, our little old laptop with the little red, beep beep with the tracking device which was about to run out of batteries by the way, which was really scary. So next thing you know, the swarm happens. We all Russian everybody rushes in. I'm in front dealing with the guy in the truck. Initially, we get him hoped up. We put him in the back of a squad car. We're making sure that the pallet is off the truck. Now's no one else jumps in it and takes off because we know that they've got is on it were looking all around. We've got NYPD poor plea, everybody helping us. So then Finally, I come walk into the structure and I'm freezing. Cold. So I'm walking down and I can hear one of my buddies from NYPD talk into the main subject. I can seize the main guy and he's, but the the main guy can't see me, but I can see the detective as I'm walking down this shoot, so to speak. So the detective saying, buddy, I can't. I can't make a deal with you. This is a federal case. You know, we got the case agents coming down case age will be here in a minute. You just I'm telling you right now. You should just cooperate and whatever he was saying. So all of a sudden I come into the view of the bad guy in your app. Race gate wear dress like Helga. The slayer and the Colombian looks up the detectives and says, are you guys pumpkin me? And we dropped a few bombs in there. And so the detective starts laughing, which makes that guy start laughing, which makes me start laughing, and the three of us were looking. It was just ridiculous. But funny, you did not look like an FBI agent. No, but then I took my hat off and then you know the with the big ball on the top of the big, whatever you call those hats. And then I looked took my jacket off and then I was wearing cargo pants in a black shirt. So it was a little bit better, but it was hysterical and it was. It was so funny. So those guys called me hell go for the rest of the trip, and we have had to go everywhere in the US attorney's office and running around back to the, you know the military base to get on c. one thirty again, and it was just it was hysterical was so much fun will tell me what happened to the guys. I mean, what's the deal? What was the what was happening was a cocaine? Where did it come from? Where was it supposed to go? What? What did you find out? Well, Los Angeles is known as a Haida area, high intensity drug trafficking area h. i. d. t. a. n. s. such against federal funding for all kinds of programs DA and the f. b. I work very hard on these high to areas, so it'd be like Miami or here, but a big chunk of the narcotics that come into this country come in through LA and from l. a. they go all over the country even into Canada in. Other places in the world. So we are almost the Genesis of so much of the stuff being traffic through our country. So we have to be really good. We have to work really hard and we have to always always always keep our eyes peeled. We, you know, we worked with Haida in Atlanta. I would sit to hide Harry there in Atlanta because it's it's the nexus of interstates eighty five seventy five and twenty. So I twenty runs all across the southern part of the United States from east west and seventy five goes north and south from Florida, all the way up to Michigan in eighty five runs through Alabama all the way up the eastern seaboard. So inland is a huge hub, a huge drug oven. In fact, a huge sex trafficking hot as well for all those reasons and because of the airport. So I have a little at least a little bit experience with Haida and you're right. Those task forces have to work so hard, and it's a really street level experience. That's what I'd like you to talk about a little. To our listeners can get a feel for what it's like to be street level. Because you know, the perception I think for for the especially for the FBI is that you don't really do street level crime. I mean, it's all very high falutin. I dunno, terrorism, maybe Bank robbery here, but look what's on street Francey when you're talking about one hundred kilos, two hundred kilos, one hundred pounds of math, heroin, laced with fennel even though that is street level, it's gotta be dealt with and and patrol officer is not in a good position tactically handle that because there's so much movement just like you talked about all these cross country tip trips and everything. You have to be in a position where you're surveillance team can contact another one down the line and another one down the pike, even further so that you can coordinate. It takes coordination like you've never seen to make these things to disrupt them successfully will in this particular case, it started for you anyway. Started LA with some eagle-eyed shipping guy who thought something looked wrong. With the packaging or the address or whatever it was he thought was weird. Were you able ever able in that case to figure out who was responsible for that in the LA portion? Yes. So tell me a little about that. We got a description from our witness, and he was one of the people that actually traveled there with us. So we were able to, we pretty much rounded up the whole crew when we busted the attempted delivery. So. So was this a case it was handled then for prosecution out of New York because it really ended in New York? No, it was prosecuted in Los Angeles in Allah, and I think they think they handled a chunk of it there. So probably part of it was handled New York impart in LA. Right? That's one of those cross country cases that has federal prosecutors. We handle all the time and sometimes argue over, believe it or not. When there's a good case or good agents, ios wanna be the one to prosecute the case. So it's interesting to hear that they would split it, but that makes sense because you did have some criminal conduct in LA in some criminal conduct in Newark, although for our listeners. Either US attorney's office in l. a. or New York coulda prosecuted the entire conspiracy start to finish even though across jurisdictions because federal prosecutors have full federal jurisdiction that the beauty of it, that's the beauty of it. And I think another thing that I've talked to our listeners about is the the collaboration between prosecutors ages and you said something interesting a little while ago you said that when you were in New York, you were in contact with the Aiwa say, and that would have been because you're on surveillance and you have to get permission from the USA the has Turney to make arrests to get search warrants, right? We need a warrant on. We had a warrant for that place, but we weren't gonna use it unless we had to extract cocaine if they didn't come to pick it up, just walk in and get the cocaine. It's probably business ones it's delivered. Right. And in LA you said you were working with someone there to you had to get a warrant from a judge with the prosecutor to open those packages? Correct. So it was a multiple packages that you had to go look almost like like year. For some type of a photo shoot or something. There were a lot of these big boxes with big speakers, and you know, again, it was the mid nineties. So they had all those giant China speakers in base speakers, stuff like that. And was this thing that did the shipment come in from out of the country? Do you remember the what they did was they bought the stuff here from some like flea market, and they bought a bunch of those speakers and they bought this these console units for all the components in. They took out everything that they could. They filled it with kilos, cocaine, and those have been packaged in plastic bags wraps. Yeah. The plastic wrap, which we fingerprinted a few of them just for purposes. It was always my my feeling that we should fingerprint all of them, but that just wasn't the the way it was done back then because I always felt the people work the way up into into an organization and in some at some time we're gonna find fingerprints for some guy who is now, you know. A very high level, and we may not be able to convict him on some case that we want to convict Amman. But if we've got his fingerprints on cocaine from seventeen years ago, that's a nice case. Well, any, no, Marin, that's a great point that that brings up issues for me in lots of different kinds of cases, sexual assault cases, another's where you may potentially have evidence of multiple defendants or multiple offenders, but resources being what they were and what they are still today. You just can't. You can't ask your people to run the the dust or what are the black lights or whatever it is whatever the case is over that much evidence, they just won't do it. It's like they feel like it's a waste of time or it's a waste of resources because resources are limited. Resources are limited, but they talk, you know what I, when it would bring up the idea, they would say Maureen. These villagers from Columbia and stuff, and they may well be villagers from Columbia, but then it's transferred onto a plane. And then from the plane, it lands somewhere or truck. The end is being handled there and then. From there, it's being broken up into separate piles and it's being handled and it's such a perfect substrate to lift fingerprints off of plastic. It's like the perfect dreamy conditions or developing a fingerprint. So I always kinda wanted to do that. But I was only I really only did it a couple times and mainly because we were ridiculously busy and always on to the next fire so to speak well. And so in this case, the Rob's in multiple defendants and did the defendants get prosecuted, yes, everyone got prosecuted in. They got a lot of time, and but I mean, literally within a week of being back, we were hot on the tail of somebody else and just running. I was trying to carve out time to deal with what's left of this case and it's hard to look forward when you're doing these type of cases. It's it's sort of hard to look forward and and also look back to make sure that every is dotted every t is crossed and you're always in con-. Act with your federal prosecutor and they're saying, hey, Maureen by next Tuesday are hearing, I'm gonna need this holistic stuff. I just emailed it to you and you open your computer and it's like, oh my God. You're already onto another case. This is something that happened weeks or months ago. Right? And you have to just, you know, coming on the weekend or whatever, and do it. So I wanna ask you are most important question. Is this a best case or a worse case for you? I'll see. It's one of my best cases in the reason I say that is because I learned so much and I've always been an out of the box thinker, but this case really pushed my Bhandari's on every single level it we used every sophisticated technique we could think of. I mean, anything I thought of trying. I was supported in trying that and we were successful in completing it. So it was it was fun. It was funny. It was different. We were freezing. It was. We went to great Italian restaurants while we were there with a bunch of NYPD cops. So that was awesome. We built bridges, we, you know, we worked hard and we got a great result. So everyone went home safely, which is something that's not happening these days as you know. And I think that's an. Portent point. You know, that's the great thing about law enforcement and being in on that side of things is that spirit of commodity when you are working together, you and I both know there's lots of rivalries inside the government federal government in between state and federal agencies. But the truth is a matter is that at the line level, those relationships are what makes you able to build the kind of cases that put away the really bad people? Absolutely into willing, yes. People are willing to go the extra mile for you because they know you went the extra mile for them, but that's not why they're doing it. You know? I mean, it's just I've just had the luckiest life. I'm just so blessed with worked with some of the finest men and women on earth. Well, I think that's also what creates what people call that thin blue line. You know where we are short of all. We have each other's backs in maybe sometimes to the detriment in a way people think when you're talking about police involved shootings, but there's. A reason for that because you spent hours sitting in a car with those people. You've gone to dinner with those people. You've worked with them on hard cases and Mr. family with those people and spent nights weekends in difficult conditions with those people in. So those relationships are what helps us build the cases that put away the really bad people and build those cartel cases that I know you also worked on where you've got you pick off the low level guy, but eventually after weeks or months or even years, you get the big one and that makes a difference in people's lives. While also think about the fin blue line that it has as much to do with doing the right thing holding each other to a really high standard. People don't understand how tough we are on each other. And I don't mean being tough. I mean, tough love like their expectations are high and you better meet or exceed them. That's how we treat each other. And as for the thin blue line when someone goes rogue or does something illegal or the first ones to pounce on him. But you know. What we've been in the arena with these other people. And when you said we spend time with them, we spend so much time with him sometimes more time than the family spends with them. So we know them and if you're or if someone is accusing them of something that we know didn't happen, we're gonna stick up for him and there's nothing wrong with that. Now there's nothing wrong that why can't understand why this is one of your best cases, and I really appreciate you coming back on the podcast, especially when Mr. Clementi is out. So you and I have not had anyone to sort of poke at or insult, which I do like to do occasionally, Jim because Jim's always wrong. And I'm always right, and you know what, Jim can't respond to that today goods. Interesting, right. But thank you for joining us on the best case worst case and to everyone listening. Thank you for tuning in. Thank you for all your comments on Facebook and social media. We really appreciate it. And most of all thank you for listening to best case worst case until next time. This case, worst case is an ex g production produced by Jim Clemente at empire studios LA engineered edited by Mike thal music composed and performed by Simba Bob. And hosted by wondering, you can listen to best case worst case on your favorite listening. We are on Spotify, Stitcher, apple, podcasts, and wherever you listen to podcasts. Stories about child sexual abuse can make us feel powerless. But the good news is that there organsations work into preventive Beauce and keep kids safe doctors to light and their stewards of children prevented training his train more than one point, four million adults to protect recognize and react responsibly to child sexual abuse, but there's more work to do and with their four million by twenty twenty goal. Darkness to light is setting their sights on training four million adults around the country to keep kids safe by donating to darkness to light. You can help reach this goal that will make communities across the country, safer places for kids. It starts with you. Visit WWW dot d. two l. dot org today to give that's WWW dot de the number two l. dot org.

cocaine Los Angeles NYPD Maureen O'Connell New York FBI US attorney FBI Teamsters Jim Clementi Ruben FedEx Chicago prosecutor Jamaica New York murder Madison Reed north Georgia mountains
Bitterness Scale

Baseball Tonight with Buster Olney

42:26 min | 10 months ago

Bitterness Scale

"Baseball tonight, the PODCAST, these the baseball tonight podcast for Wednesday September nine, two, thousand, twenty, producing from his home studio in the foothills of Connecticut Taylor Schwenk on Buster only working for my home studio in New York. Well, today's a big day in Baseball Roberto. Clementi Day. Today, he'll be honored players who were born in Puerto Rico are going to be allowed to wear Clementi's number twenty one that with permission from Major League. Baseball other players will be able to wear a number twenty, one decal Pittsburgh pirates. Of course, Roberto Clementes team All of those players will also be wearing number twenty one on Tuesday in Saint. Louis you gotTa Emelina Puerto Rico wore number twenty one because the cardinals are not playing today in that double header. The twins won the first game. Cardinals won the second Game Nelson Cruz of the twin slamming three homers during the course the double header it was a nineteen pichit bat for Matt leaders give a listen to this. Again. I believe this is the longest and bad I've seen. Him Play, center. With the catch on nine, t sits battle ends Liaoning Dick Bremmer with that call on the twins television network the phillies playing the red sox rookie came through for. Philadelphia. To and again, the pitch from Barnes swinging ally drive to left. Basit one run scored Didi coming around third. He's way to the plate and the throw is time Alec Baldwin has won. A two run single the walk off here on the bottom of the Sabbath the phillies down to their final strike and boom strikes for the polls. The six, five, the final, the Phillies, win it, and walk off I. Got France King Ninety four wip in Arizona Gavin locks had a really big day and you know the trajectory of his season he came into the year lot of Hoopla about him. Then after the summer camp, he was initially left off the dodgers roster. He's now worked his way back and his talent is manifesting. In for a big innings. A high fly ball to right field calhoun going back on it. With a second home rather than. A skyscraper being three run shot against Lopez and they've broken it open in the tenth. Joe Davison Orel Hershiser on the dodgers television network. The dodgers coming back from an early deficit after Walker bueller lasted less than three innings. Brian Cashman the general manager of the Yankees address the players yesterday and he spoke to reporters afterward and he talked about how the fans deserve better baseball his message to the players talk cheap and all that matters is the performance will after that conversation took place this is what happened in the game. The. To to to Davis. And he gives it a ride to teeth left field. I battle this season and he just. I was Dan Schulman on the Blue Jays television networks. So yesterday, the Jays win the Yankees lose incredibly the Jays with a three game lead over the Yankees for second place in the American League East, the Orioles one and the Tigers wants to the Yankees, lead over Baltimore for the number eight playoff spot is now just down to a half game. Tell you gotta be feeling good about that your os right in it? Oh my gosh. I. Watched the mets game last night I was going bananas we got four Games against gangs this weekend looks Stores Oh it is so on and I jacked and the Yankees. Now, just a game Detroit who would have imagined that we'd be in this situation at the start of all, this will be talking about that with David Schoenfield coming up six Sanchez of the Marlins man does he look awesome? Is it'll be a two to pitch coming from sixto and he went around strikeout number one, four, six does Sanchez tonight, hell dial it up triple digits here six pitches into the ballgame it's overpowering a hitter, right? It's going to raise it at the top of the Zona Kuni goes around. So that strikeout number twenty on the year in this is fourth starts. With now, six more strikeouts yeah pretty impressive. He didn't just drag out a hitter. He struck a the Kuni junior one, hundred miles per hour at the top of the zone, and by the end of the night here are six of Sanchez's numbers for the year twenty, five innings in four starts a one point eight Oh era, a twenty five strikeouts to walks twenty five strikeouts in two walks for a pitcher four starts into his career I'M GONNA ask Paul Bikinis about how rare that is Max freed the best and most stable force and the braves tation went on the disabled list with back spasms his viola dropped precipitously in his last start. Before we continue, we need to talk about our friends at marathon oil. Now, more than ever have to look out for each other in count on each other marathon wants you to know that you can count on them for high quality top tier gas marathon gasoline's are formulated. With SDP additives. They keep your vehicle running at peak performance by optimizing fuel economy, removing those deposit buildups in by reducing emissions, and right now, you can get five cents off every gallon. Every day with make it count rewards marathon plus you can earn points for additional savings on fuel airfare hotels and more. This is definitely a deal you can count on it's quick and easy to join just download the free. Make it count APP or go to make count dot com slash radio start saving today. This offers valid only at participating marathon stations remember wherever you need to go be safe. The people at Marathon are behind you all the way before. We continue we need to talk about our friends in marathon oil. Now, more than ever we have to look out for each other in count on each other marathon wants you to know that you can count on them for high quality top tier gas marathon gasoline's are formulated with SDP additives. They keep your vehicle running at peak performance by optimizing fuel economy, removing those ugly deposit buildups in by reducing emissions, and right now you can get five cents off every. Gallon every day with make it count rewards marathon plus you can earn points for additional savings on fuel airfare hotel and more. This is definitely a deal you can count on it's quick and easy to join just download the free. Make it count APP or go to make it count dot com slash radio start saving today. This offers valid only at participating marathon stations remember wherever you need to go be safe. The people at Marathon are behind you all the way. Welcome to the show. Welcome to the show. Welcome to show. Welcome to the show. Welcome to the show. COON to the show. Welcome to the show maybe you're in the show with TV show and. David Schoenfield covers baseball for ESPN and Dave on this the Roberto Clementi Day I feel like that. It's important to remind people that he was a lot more than a great humanitarian and he is know baseball's humanitarian award is named for him. Of course, his life ended when he was making A. Flight to give relief to people who had just been devastated by an earthquake but I almost feel like now as time goes on people sometimes forget just how incredible credible, what kind of incredible player was and what kind of an athlete I don't know about you. But they're just some guys that when you watch the move and running throw, you're like, wow, that guy's an athlete like Jack flair cardinals now Fernanda tease junior clementi was like that for me when I was a kid. Yeah no doubt. He's one of those guys use a little before my time that you wish you could have seen play, right? Yeah. There's a few videos out there not a whole lot because there's not many from that era that we still have an existence. But yeah, obviously what a player three seventeen career batting average in a very difficult era again in the sixties with the big mouth for batting titles. Of course, he finished with three thousand hits on the Diet and like you mentioned yesterday. Without a doubt I. Think you know the greatest defensive right fielder of all time. And then nineteen seventy-one World Series He pa-. He was killed on December thirty first nineteen, seventy to the nineteen seventy one world series was a grand stage, Roberto, Clementi. He had four fourteen had an L. P. S. over twelve hundred. He was firing the ball all over the place in game seven of the world series. The pirates won that game behind Steve Blast. Tudo. One was Clementi who gave the pirates a lead with a home run off Mike Mike give a listen. That is fit well. Commentary. Pirates lead one nothing. Breaking. Point at twelve hip. One short now tying bobby pins all time. World Series Record. Thirteen hits in a seven game world series. Triple a homer yesterday and a home run today like his wing now look at him. tee-off. One hundred eighty pound body whipping around that's when he pulled the left center. Get the been the right yeah. So then the nine hundred seventy world series Brooks Robinson was playing third base for the Baltimore Oriels and it feels like that they're about one hundred and fifty highlights of him making defensive plays from that world series and it's the same thing with Clementi from seventy one like if you just Google Roberto Clementi and throw about three or four throws come up from that world series of one of those actually involved to play that with with Merv Redmond who I got to know and many years later when he was a hitting coach with the San, Diego padres and what happened on that. Play was it was a fly ball was at second base. There's a fly ball toward the right field line and CLEMENTI's racing from right center field over toward the right field line to catch and Moore was really fast and committee catches it, and then does basically a two hundred and seventy degree. WORL- and fires off his back foot from that spot to third base and merv barely beat it and we had about eight years later he said he couldn't believe it was that close he was just amazed by how committee was able to use his body and set himself up that way, and of course, make those incredible throws. It's true here. One thing people say it's too hard to measure defense. A lot of that doesn't show up in this stat. Oh, for guys agreed, our players don't run out of well, they tried to run on. Clemente but look at some of these assist totals buster. To Nineteen Fifty Eight, twenty, seven, nine, hundred, sixty, one, nineteen, you know I mean just you know seventeen and so on. So yeah, they knew he had the best arm ever. They tried to run on him and he still threw them out all the time in. The defensive staff from that era we kind of estimate what they are but Clemente's the charts better than each row Suzuki. I don't even know who else. I would put in that alkaline has married good stats of course as well but clemente defensively. Fifty years ago since he's played and nobody had matches them, he played in two world series I in nineteen sixty, then nineteen seventy-one fourteen world series games. You got a hit in every single world series game he played in six though Sanchez made his four start for the Marlins last night and wow David. He just jumps out at you when you watch him pitch and the numbers so far twenty-five innings to walks twenty five strikeouts, the Marlins have themselves as. Yeah. He was part of that JT mutual trail. I believe, right? You know he was a top prospect battled some injuries here and there while with the phillies that's one reason I think they were willing to part with them. But Yeah, man last night he hit one hundred a couple times he and Jacob degrom only starting pitchers to reach one hundred with their heater this year. But the thing that impresses me to walks in twenty five innings if this kid is gonNA throw strikes with that stuff he absolutely as as potential. So what you read on the National League as now that we got word from the braves yesterday Max freed going on the injured list at the moment the braves two and a half games ahead of the phillies three and a half ahead of the marlins five and a half ahead of the mets, I don't rule out any of those teams. Know, what we know how much Atlanta rotation has struggled outside of freed. So now without him man at rotation is still a mess. What cowl right last night with another. Bad Start is yeras over over eight. You know he's supposed to be a top prospect hasn't delivered the Phillies I. Don't know how they're doing it with that bullpen. They're in it and the MARLINS somehow. They pitch pretty well, if Sanchez is the real deal of the rest of that rotation solid, they have a shot mets live ground to make up I keep expecting him to win six in a row. But as we saw yesterday, they just can't. Rob's not on the hill that rotations amass mass can hit. Haven't hit with runners on base. So I think it's braves, phillies, Marlins I. Think all three of those teams are going to be battling down to that final weekend well in while all the teams in the National League Eastern Nash League central are in perfect at best because of this format for two thousand and twenty two teams in each of those divisions are assured of being in the postseason because sunlight past years, where was the first place teams in each division, and then you just take the best records to round out the wild card berths. The first and second place teams are GonNa be in the playoffs. Do you prefer this system or do you like the other? So he mentioned this to me, this is a possibility if the Yankees and the orioles both end up with a better record than the Astros. The Astros make because they finished second in the West Man. Can you imagine how ticked off Yankee fans will be that happens? I think he almost had to do it because you had to factor in the potential. Unevenness of the divisions in with all the Games being within your division or the corresponding geographic division it's Kinda hard to group the League's together. But yeah, we'RE GONNA, end up with the possibility of a team finishing with a better record and missing the playoffs. You mentioned the Yankees yesterday Brian Cashman was moved to go to Buffalo. He actually had been there watching his team as it was in crisis and hold a team meeting and basically try to assure the players maybe nudged them a little bit. Maybe put a little pressure on them. Maybe to telling them that he supports them fully but then they won out lost another game and incredibly. Their lead over the orioles for the eight spot in the National League is a half game. They have a one game lead over the Tigers only to over the team that's near dear to your heart the mariners. And I I did sportscenter yesterday and they asked me on a scale of one to ten. How much in trouble are the Yankees and I said seven and a half and trending badly because you know and I know the way baseball is it's not like. We're the Yankees. Could suddenly turn on a light necessarily run away from other teams. They have played all of these other teams into this race. You know you know the mariners they have legitimate shot the Tigers have a legitimate shot. You know as we come down the stretch in the enke's control that they have lost control of their own destiny with the way they performed. Remarkable. Watching the game last night they just left runners on base. You Know Look David Call, set it on the Yankees broadcasts. You know they're a five hundred team. This is who they are. This is no fluke. It's no accident. Yes. The injuries bla-bla-bla, but go through that roster and guys have not performed. They are a five hundred team. Do they have more talent than the orioles with the mayor's? Yes. Of course they do but they haven't played up to it. It's wide open. They had big series this weekend with with Baltimore. They still have what seven gained with Toronto and they finished with the Marlins so. Is Not going to be easy. I know our playoff odds still give him eighty three percent chance the orioles only Levin Point Eight and that's based on the talent level. That's guarantee it's wide open well, and you're right. That's based on track record for guys like Gary Sanchez like Labor. Torres Gleyber Torres hasn't had any impact this year he's not playing that well, he's not playing well, defensively is now playing offensively and Gary. Sanchez, I was texting with much evaluators yesterday about him like they're confused right the they don't understand. They couldn't imagine a couple of years ago. You'd have a situation that he would look this bad at the plate. One hundred and fourteen plate appearances and think about these numbers He has a total of five singles, one double and seven home runs in one hundred and fourteen plate appearances Pete that hundred fourteen plate appearances, five singles, one double seven home runs and forty eight strikeouts, and we saw this in the postseason last year and even the postseason the year before that where once he gets into a funk of any kind, it's like the pitcher can stand out there and yell to him. Hey. I'm going to throw a slider Lohan away, and for whatever reason, he's just not able to make an adjustment. This is the problem I have with the modern approach to hit it and Gary Sanchez perfectly sums this up luck is rookie eerie hit two, ninety, nine as a sophomore to seventy eight with thirty three home runs. He was not just a slugger he was a really good hitter since then one, eighty, six to thirty, two, one, twenty, five, it's home runner nothing isn't hit enough home runs to make up for all the nothing especially this year either he needs a total revamp of his entire game 'cause he has talent we've seen it he shouldn't be this bad I'm sure some of its mental, but it's also just the modern approach to. inning willing to live with the strikeouts to try to hit a home run and I think some players are negative negatively impact to buy this style of play and Sanchez is is case number one boy so much swing and miss, and again in you know in the toughest games of the year when you need your best players to step up, he has struggled in the postseason You know we saw that in the first couple years cody bellinger with the dodgers, and then as time has gone on, it seems like he's beginning to make adjustments. But that's you know my question about Gary Sanchez as we go forward and it's interesting because. I really feel like that while we've talked about how this winter's free agent market is going to be really bad for a lot of players because of the volume of free agents, all the non tenders it's like and I'm going to write about this some in this Sunday's column. It's like if you look off on the horizon like all the. A weather formation that's gathering perfectly for jt Real Muto beside. He is going to be the most prominent free agent this fall, and he's already got the Philadelphia phillies invested in them. They absolutely love them. They love him as a player. They love him as a as a teammate as a catcher. He's got bryce Harper in a basically advocating for him to be recite. so He's already got one big market team. Coming after them, then you have the New, York mets with new ownership, Steve Khan, richest owner in baseball he can outbid anybody for any player. He wants the mets need a catch your long-term. So that's to potential teams and I just the last couple of days in watching. Gary Sanchez struggle it occurred to me like you know what I wonder if the Yankees. Watch and see how Gary Sanchez struggled defensively last year to the point that they made a lot of adjustments with his defense and how he sets up. If they might say, we don't know about Gary, Sanchez, we don't have confidence necessarily in on the other hand jt. Real. Muto that guy's athleticism is so phenomenal while you know be thirty years old for catcher might sound older. He just looks like somebody who could play and be successful players for years to come. So it does feel like you have at least two teams maybe more than that jumping in on the bidding on him no I agree and this May. Be a little unfair you know and certainly if George Steinbrenner was still rattling the team, there's no doubt. He would make Sanchez the scapegoat for this season right I'm not gonna say that's going to happen with the current ownership. Eh, the current front office, but it does feel like a change of scenery might be needed for everyone involved here. You know like you said, he's never going to be a gold glove candidate behind the plate. anyways. Real Muto is just going to be true to a player more reliable. You know the kind of guy he want handling the pitching staff you know his Sanchez GonNa take the blame. For some of the struggles of the pitching staff it's hard to kind of get those reports this year. But that certainly has been the case in the past and I'm with you. If the Yankees look I know they got all that money and Garrett call they're gonNA have to maybe coney up for Aaron Judge Down the road but jt rail who is absolutely perfect fit for them yeah and I wonder you know big picture is the Yankees look at the players they want to invest in if Aaron judge is injuries begin to begin to factor in where they feel like you know what don't know. If we want to you know throw it on two hundred million dollars is something in that range, for Aaron, as much as they love his at bats and they love power and his star power is that something somebody who want to invest in or would you rather spinoff and you know find pitcher to invest in or someone like rail? Muto it's GonNa be really interesting off season for the Yankees especially, if they don't make the postseason and there's a a large internal assessment based on just the sixty game season before you go give me a handicap, the American league central you think's GonNa win that three team race. I guess we always default to pitchy right so I'll go with. Cleveland that rotation just so stellar. The twins I think they're gonNA. Finish third they just haven't been bashing the ball like they did last year other than Nelson Cruz I think to a man everybody's having a worse were season the white sox they're right at their them in Cleveland plus fifty to render differential. But when in doubt the fall to starting pitching in that's Cleveland, totally agree with you all right sir, I appreciate it. Very good. This is one of the moments remembered from a Berta commence career. This is right after the pirates won the nineteen seventy, one world series Clementi was named the MVP and legendary broadcaster Bob Prince spoke with him and you'll hear Clementi as they talk, ask his parents for his blessing in Spanish give a lesson. Life? People are. I. I. Told my mother is probably. ME I. saw. Before, we move on we need to talk about our friends at draft kinks. 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I runarounds Cincinnati, by two hundred points by you. On This is Hembo. Knows in Hembo is Paul Katie's researcher ESPN is also a haunt you on the show get up. He tells us he's the head Honcho and you've got to be in studio today. Hammo, tell us that story. Today was a big deal over here. So since I don't know what it was like the second week of March like everyone else I have been working from home working remotely and look when you sign up to work at ESPN. It is your dream the apart of a live studio experience as I've had the opportunity to do for so long it is not your dream. To Be Texting, e-mailing famous people from your mother in law's couch, and that's what I had been doing before. So going back in the studio today being a part of it feels dynamic again obviously, it's it's a little subdued in different here everyone's keeping their distance and wearing the masks and all that. But it felt like a little slice a normal and I think all. Of US at a time like now can really appreciate that well, between signing autographs for all this people who've been missing you you did answer one of my email this morning about the performance of Sixto Sanchez of the Marlins in his first four starts in the big leagues remarkable stuff twenty, five innings just five runs allowed a one point eight Oh, you're a twenty five. strikeouts in two walks, and of course, I saw that I'm like man that never happens and I emailed you about that. What did you find out? Well, that happens more often than we thought a handful of times in the last handful of years including Masahiro Tanaka, Brendan McKay, and Elias Back, and said, you know it's really not all that rare. But Buster, it's not really the the. Numbers that jump out to me as it relates to six though Sanchez, it's the stuff I mean, you watch this stuff when this guy is totally electric I mean like built for the touching Ninjas twitter feed and as a as a phillies fan. Obviously, he was a mega prospect for us. He seems to have become the crown jewel of that organization in slowly but surely the. Moments a really building something that fastball changeup Nick that he has is completely vile, and if he can develop a a legitimate third pitch sits compliment often that change up and play plus I. Think we're looking at a front end type star the question I have as it relates the Sanchez's future is how durable not the biggest guy in the world, but it stuff is. Electric I've heard people use the the name, six inches and Pedro Martinez in the same breath. So I was just talking to David Schoenfield field about how all the stars and moons are all lining for JT Real Muto in free agency. The course the phillies want to retain him the mets have new ownership, and then just watching Gary Sanchez in recent days and how much. He's struggling wondering you what another big market team, the Yankees who knows maybe they get involved in that into this point. That's all speculation on a scale of one to ten Philadelphia Phillies. Fan Bitterness. How bitter would you be? It'd be Sixto Sanchez dominating for the MARLINS. The big piece and jt winds up signing with some other teams besides the Phillies Oh, twenty, five something like that. That's it would irk me to no end as well. It should because phillies fans for a year have been talked told radio and sank. Let's lock this guy up. We have the best catcher in baseball while. Possibly let them go. Of course if if we can retain them, it's has the money. We know they have more money than practically any team in baseball and look I've never been one who has this sort of sellers remorse after one of your prospects becomes a study elsewhere. So long as you got what you signed up for it and affiliates have gotten what they signed up for but if they sort of any sort of financial pressures or allow themselves to get up or even don't make a real pushier for the end of the season when they have rights to him and no one else does. Most of you will be enraged speaking of the Yankees they've been struggling. What do you make of that? Well. There are two areas in particular that stand out to me about their last twenty games in which they're five and fifteen buster number. One is that there lineup lacks LANC lanky eight nine hitters or batting one, fifty five with a league low OPN during that stretch for context eight, nine hitters in the National League at a to ten last year that was was before the d. h. rule is wanted to affect they have automatic outs the bottom of their line of. Their pitchers can't swing the game buster to the back end in innings five and six during those twenty games. So that's forty innings total. The Yankees have allow twenty four extra-base eleven of which are home runs and fifty one runs. We know the back of the bullpen is is terrific even despite some of the injuries that they've suffered but if you can't swing the game in that direction and you're not getting any light from your starters. Good do either of them do that's a major problem area for this team right now, it's really exposing this club in a way that's causing them games, and these are now really meaningful games. Last thing that I'll say plus they built a team during much for their ballpark to deal the homer Owen nine that she when they when they haven't homered, they won a game yet and which they have not hit a home run. That's a real concern when you can't manufacture runs and you don't have the kind of lengthen your lineup that you anticipated one of the teams ahead of them in the American league standings, the Tampa Bay rays who have this incredibly versatile roster. What he got there again. So they're twenty, two, eight since August eight it makes them the best team in baseball over the last calendar month or two things they've done really well over that span. The first is extinguished fires in the bullpen they're only seven forty, six inherited runners have scored against the raise during that time that is by far the best rate in baseball, and secondly there lineup chases opposing stars, Tampa, eight forty, five ps against starting pitchers during that time. That's the fourth best baseball further he's please forty three games this season forty, three games these forty, two unique lineup. There are plug and play. They have no unselfish on that team the fact that they've. Given catch US pulled out a different lineup in all one one day this season only one duplicate lineup is is a remarkable. It really speaks to the versatility they've built down there. And lastly, today Roberto Clemente will be honored I'll all around baseball we've heard from him a lot and heard about them a lot today in the podcast. Would he got on Roberto Clementi? Well Clinton is to Latin America Jackie Robinson into the black community as as as best I can tell as a player buster his throwing arm is what most stood out to me the all time record for rightfielder instantaneously with thinking garbage can at the third base as practice targets for throwing out baserunners as a humanitarian. Of course, he staged these baseball clinics for low income children in Puerto Rico, and visited patients in Pittsburgh's Children's hospital during the season, and of course, he ultimately died doing that humanitarian. Work, committee was inducted into the hall of fame by special election, of course, in Nineteen, seventy three and is the only player enshrined posthumously before he would have turned forty years old. All right Hembo. Good to talk with. You welcome back to studio. Now go home and don't come back for another week. That's right. That's what they're telling me over here later boys. Leisure tweets. Already Buster bleacher tweets for Wednesday I up Andrew desalvo at salve ocean in for teams that fall short of expectations. For example, the Yankees I hope he includes in parentheses is it possible? Their manager GM could lose their jobs based on the team's poor performance or will owners give them a pass due to this season's circumstances and we've talked a lot about high. In Bloom but what about elsewhere around the League Yeah Anaheim Bloom save his job is safe I. think more what I was mentioning with him is it feels like that. You know in a year when there were a lot of expectations for the, red sox at could SORTA go about his work and no one noticed but the red sox have struggled so much. that. I. Feel like that. You know what? Maybe the clock starts to tick this year I can't imagine did either Brian Cashman or Aaron Boone would be in trouble You know they're very highly regarded within the Yankees Organization. You know one name that's brought up a lot in baseball circles is at a billy apple, the general manager of the Angels He's in. The last year of his deal the angels you know had hoped even in the sixty game season to perform well but again, they've lacked starting pitching Shohei Ohtani had the injury that he had. You know what we'll see what happens with belly but I know folks with other teams are wondering about whether or not he's going to keep his job moving forward. Next up, we have buffets the back guy. slayer. At will wheels. PhD. That's a good little run there he writes in favorite Lou Brock story white met him at a function but didn't know who he was because her only frame of baseball reference was the two thousand fourteen Indians she asked Brock I hear that used to steal bases but were you as good as Michael Born to which he replied all most what a great story and it absolutely falls right in line with the stories I've heard about Lou Brock and how nice he was as a person that he he would deferred to that excited fan fired up about Michael Born. Very. Cool. Last one for today. Andy Peterson. At m. a Peterson writes in hello buster Taylor. The L. Central has taken the goat Rodeo title from the NFL West Three teams below five hundred, the cardinals outbreak, and yet they're listed in the playoff to spot cubs with the lowest win percentage of all division leaders is that one the Goat Rodeo division for you at the moment buster I could be I would say this the national. League East is also in that category especially, as we get news about Max, reads injury like the one stable part of the braves rotation. Now he's out to and you know the the phillies have been playing a lot better. I don't think we could completely rule out the mets. The marlins was sixto throwing so well that that's going to be an interesting divisions. Well, yeah. But the national league central is a great candidate for that. A lot of fun coming down the stretch here. Thanks for writing and everyone has bleacher tweet on twitter and please subscribe to rate and review this podcast wherever you listen to podcasts. That's it for today. My thanks to Dave to Hembo and Taylor thanks for listening everybody stay safe and remember hate inequality based on race is something we need to fight against every day, and in that vein, listen to the last interview that Roberto Clementi did this is from October of Nineteen seventy-two, the broadcaster named Sam Nobre this is Roberto Clementi. People like Joe Namath and Muhammad. Ali. For example, who could easily be categorized with you Roberto in the greatness as an athlete have no inhibitions at all about allowing the public to come into their private like maybe they do secretly but certainly, they don't disguise it. How do you feel about athletes like name finale for example, who whose exploits The whole world knows about. Say That It's a little different model with Ali because I have admire this man because I don't Mi- I might not go with the idea that he has. I think everybody think different. I Don I. Don't know what all the idea he has as a as a professional athlete. I admire him a lot because. he's a fillion person. most of the. Going public on the fact that he put in public. He doing hisself a promotion for his fight with his job. And I admire him for that name as A. Nation make him I on the. Is they tried to they making my playboy and over boy which. This is something that had to grow in the in the personal also. And I don't say one thing the other because they do their job does their business but to me I can be like that I I gotta rest. I had to rest on much as I can. And I think that. The little different story because. I've been the liability minority group I Puerto Rico, I'm black. And I have between the wall. So. Anything I. DO I I re recruited them because I'm black. I'm sick. I would reflect on me because I am Puerto Rican. But with this might tell you that to me. I always respect everybody on socks to God when I grew up. I was raised I was I was raised. By my father and then there were told me to hate anyone or they never told me to this leg will because the racial we never talk about that the mother of parks I I started listening to this talk when I can state. So to me. I would say that. This. Is something that I love everybody on the. And I have to be very good for what I do because ym so I. Give you a somber I was in New York one time by furnace on furniture under the people my was was going to have a baby. And we'll we used to around on the people they meet us out the door and they said they, what do you want? To see showroom I, see some furnish you. On this world, let's wait for a little bit and we want to send somebody to. Lord to see what we have. So. They said that they have one floor furniture. And so they to. To Rio Rio place where I they they. They shot the funding wasn't the showroom wasn't the furnished now they were showing up upstairs. And I said, we will see these phony two downstairs that wasn't the showroom and they said, well, you have enough money to buy that. I say how it you know that I don't have enough money a world, but that's very offensive. I said I would like to see it because I have the right to see as a human being supported by for you. So finally, they show it to us. And I remember I use hustle money a we went to Europe I me my my my wallet. I have five thousand dollars in my wallet. We said to do the whole amount money instead using this one combined. So they want to know who I was married or the top and. They find who I was. So they said, we seven stores seven, seven, seven floors four finish we wanNA short to you and. You know you will with was like a more for Rican. Railway. Just got mad I said look. Your Business to sell to anybody. I don't care if I'm Marie Cowan US or whatever you wanNA call me but. You see this was really give me mad because I have Puerto Rican you different from the other people. I have the same money that you are asking for but I have a different treatment with right now giving my wife different treatment I myself and my friend Puerto Rican I don't WanNa do anything about it. I don't want to buy your financials I walk out. Thanks for listening to the baseball tonight podcast. If you're playing fantasy baseball toe, forget to listen to the fantasy focus podcast checkout all podcasts at ESPN DOT com slash podcast. Center. Baseball tonight, the PODCAST.

Baseball Sixto Sanchez Yankees Philadelphia Phillies Roberto Clementi Marlins mets braves Brian Cashman dodgers Baltimore Gary Sanchez David Schoenfield Roberto Clemente Philadelphia cardinals National League Tigers Pittsburgh
113 | Dead Mountain Mystery

Best Case Worst Case

35:52 min | 2 years ago

113 | Dead Mountain Mystery

"In his final conclusion, what caused the death of the love hikers was an unknown. Compelling source. Yeah. This sounds like a setup of like a murder mystery movie, doesn't it? His description is just sinister. This podcast is sponsored by ADT. This is real protection when it comes to something as important as your family safety. You deserve real protection. From eighty real protection means the nation's number one, smart home security provider is standing by in there for you. When you need them. Real protection means having a safe in smart home with everything from video doorbells Valence cameras smart locks lights carbon monoxide in smoke detectors in a system custom designed to fit your lifestyle. Real protection means helping to keep you safe on the go in the car, or when your kids are at school with our ADT go app and SOS button. No matter how you define safety for you, your family or your business AT is their visit AT dot com slash podcast to learn more about how eighty can design and install secure smart home. Just for you. ADT? Real protection alone welcomes best case worst case. This is Jim Clementi retarded beyond profile foreign. New York City prosecutor writer-producer on CBS criminal minds. And with me today. Electrically is everybody it's Francey Hake. Former state and federal prosecutor, and Jim our listeners may notice we are once again on different coasts. And so we were talking to each other over that saying, I'm informed is called the interwebs field. Website's very complicated thing. But it's great to have you electrically with me, they Francy and aren't we both excited today? L? Yes, we are. We are our listeners, you should know because we have a really special guest of very close friend and colleague we've worked with him before on very important shows, and he's done some amazing work in the real world and on different forms of media. And that person is Danica. Hey, donny. How you doing? I'm good. I'm good. How are you guys? Good. Could you tell? Our listeners Donny what you do for a living. Sure, I am a mainly documentarian. And I've got quite a lot of experience in true crime as well as I wrote a book called dead mountain old true story of the D at love pass incident said nonfiction book. Oh, wait a minute. Wait a minute. I think this is a first this is our first documentarian, and maybe even our first of the new author. Well, maybe, but let's put it this way. Donny is a lot easier to look at. I'm sorry. I had said. Well is wonderful guy. And we're so happy to have him here. And we both worked with Donny on a great show that we did together called the case of and we were fortunate enough to have Donnie and his very calm and very thoughtful personality because it was a rough time wasn't doing that show. It was a tough time. But Donny is that way, I mean, Donny, I don't know how it's like you're the common the eye of the storm that is named Jim Clementi. What he's talking about. Donny is. I think I'm a storm. Do you? Yes. But you're you're more like a cool breeze. Jim. Thank you. That's that's exactly what I thought. Okay. Cool. Will Don it's great to have you here. And we want to talk to you about a case in your life. And obviously this happened in the real world. And the fact is Francine, I know something about this story because we both read your book, which is amazing. And we want to know where in your career, you were when this case came into life. Well, I just finished a show called the buried life, which was a show on MTV about for Canadians who had a list of one hundred things to do before they died. It was very inspirational show, and I was in Idaho with my girlfriend, and we were staying in a old bed and breakfast out in the middle of nowhere in. Two. It was New Year's Eve, and we actually had the bed and breakfast to ourselves, and I was working on a scripted projects. In procrastinating. I know you don't do that. I stumbled upon a mystery that will literally alter the course of my life while at sounds, very interesting and change your body. You can tell donny's a good storyteller. Absolutely. But what I I wanna know is how do you find out about a mystery when you're in the middle of a better breakfast in Idaho? Like what how did you stumble upon it? Well, up in the loft end. I sorta hit a roadblock with what I was writing. And I was doing some research in I read about these nine Russian university students in nineteen fifty nine that went on expedition in euro mountains, and that's the euro mountains where did in the northern mountains in Siberia inside Syria in in case. And this is going to be important later on in the story in case people don't know, it's pretty damn cold in Siberia, isn't it? Yes. I. Grew up in Florida. Where you know, maybe it'll drop to forty five degrees. And you know, all hell breaks loose. When that happens and Siberia does it ever get as warm as forty five degrees. Matcher? Stay tuned. Okay. So you're you're doing some research, you find out about these hikers will what can you tell us about these hikers? I mean, why did this story interest you in the first place? Well, originally, you know, the these hikers basically went into the northern your mountains to conquer the distance and document this unknown territory for their university, and what I had found out through my research, actually, boots on the ground there living with the families that they were mainly engineering students highly educated in they were poets in music. Titians amateur photographers suggests in extraordinary group of young men and women that set out on this expedition surely to challenge themselves, but they never return women. You just something that you did research by actually interviewing and living with these families. Yep. So I found the story in an obscure article at that point there really wasn't much about this. And I called a man named Yuri could snitch in Russia had a short conversation with him with the Russian interpreter any kind of got fed up with me asking all these questions. And he said, you know, if you wanna find out what happened to the hikers, you need to come to Russia, and basically hung up. Wow. Normal person says, yeah, I'm not going to Russia. Correct. Luckily, I have a very supportive girlfriend now wife, who I, you know, rush down and told her that I'd spoken with this, man. You're a Kootenai vich, and he said I need to come to Russia figure out what happened to these hikers. Okay. I just need to ask one more question. Are I get you found out? You got this article? You got this guy's name. But here's a guy in Russia in your in Idaho. I'm not mistaken Iraq. How did you get his number? Well, how did you find this guy in the middle of Russia? Google man. So he was actually the head or still is the head of the data pass foundation. So he sort of holds the keys to the kingdom with this case. I later found out when I went and stayed with him. Okay. So the the at love pass, what can you tell us about that? Because, you know, most people in the world don't know, what the hell that is sure the dialogue pass is in the northern euro mountains, and it was named after the hiking groups leader eager d at love, you know. I don't know if you want me to dig into my experiences there quite yet. But it's it's extremely remote. You know? I I I did two different trips to Russia. And I spent a lot of that time trying to figure out where Siberia starts in where Russia ends in where the border is in really I kind of. Figured out the Siberia's more state of mind. Once you get to the euro mountains, you're in Siberia. Okay. So subira doesn't have actual borders. It's basically it's the frozen tundra up. There. Isn't it? It is. Yeah. For my understanding. It's really the the euro mountains are the the border of Siberia. Okay. So we've gone a long way from your in Idaho at this Bennett breakfast, and you told your girlfriend that you're interested in this story called the guy. A now you decide what you're actually going to go to Russia. Correct. So what did you do? How did you set this? This is insanity. Who read the story in a magazine? No matter how interesting and says. Yeah, you know, I think I'll go to Siberia because this is interesting will I am from Florida Francy. About explains anything. Well, Donnie at being from the neighboring state of Georgia. I get what you mean. Well, let me let me tell you a little more about this story. You know? So so basically, these hikers they go out on this expedition two weeks later, the students never returned home in. They sent out a search and rescue team to try to find the hikers. In what they would later fine would in my opinion, become one of the most profound unsolved mysteries the twentieth century. So the hikers tent was found still standing, but inside the tent? Were the hikers belongings majority. Their some of their coats in their boots in this is in sub zero conditions in their backpacks in there was even a plate of sliced ham that had been left out that was uneaten. While so over the course of the next few months, they found the hikers bodies scattered about a mile away from the tent in most right now Donnie, Mike crime end Tanna have gone on. So you have nine young hikers in how what was their age range the majority of were in their early twenties. And then there was a gentleman by the name of Sasha. Who was I think around thirty five years old and any believe affect so he wasn't. He wasn't a student though wasn't. He wasn't a student one of the hikers had pulled out early in. They needed a replacement in. He ends with eager love who was the head of the hiking group. He was a veteran of war had tattoos in a gold tooth. Wow. So yeah, this sounds like a setup of of like a murder mystery movie, doesn't it? I mean, you know, bunch of kids are gonna go do this thing. Now, they were experienced hikers. I mean eager was the leader. He was extremely experienced. But what about the rest of the a highly experienced hikers? These guys were no joke, and they specifically went to this region. I later found out to challenge themselves in the very harsh conditions also document is unknown region for their university. So don't they have to sort of to get certification at different levels have to go through a certain number of very difficult, hiking maneuvers, and this is one of them, correct? Yeah. The one of the other reasons they went out there to such difficult terrain in harsh conditions is to get an upgraded, hiking license. So it's like if you were to get a masters of say scuba. So you could teach diving they wanted to be able to teach hiking. So they were working for their highest certificate of a hiking license got it. So this older man that was with them with the gold tooth. Do. We know anything about his history. Well, he was the war veteran. He was friends with eager love, and you know, he had tattoos which back then was a bit unusual, and you know, he did have some gold teeth. So he certainly stuck out in the crowd. But what I later found out. He was a very helpful person to the hiking group. Sterling his description is just sinister and Jim when you said earlier murder mystery, I'm thinking horror movie. Oh, well could be we don't know yet. How this ends so eager yacht. Love. He basically led this team into the mountains. So that they could have this experience and get upgraded hiking licenses. Right. Correct. So kind of gear did they have to take their planning on being gone for two weeks is at it. Yeah. They had you know, they they would pack about seventy five pounds in their packs and take only the absolute essentials in. They had different areas throughout the hike part of their expedition was on the train in through remote Monza villages, but they would sort of drop off gear in certain areas to lighten their backpack in then on the way back they would have more of their supply. I got it. They would station some supply stations along the way. So they didn't have to carry everything all the way up the mountains. But when they were coming back, they would pick up like, I would imagine food, and maybe extra clothing or whatever that they didn't need in a mandolin. Now, I bake. So I'm thinking, you don't mean the kind where you cut up carrots in a nice circle. What you mean? What are you talking about mandolin is a kitchen tool? But I think dining might mean the musical instrument. It's also called a mandolin never heard of a mandolin the cuts character tonight, circle, but very much for that France total after you've just everybody listens to us wanted to know about that kitchen tool. So thank you so much. I have another question though, these hikers were were looking to go on this crazy hike in Siberia, they did it in the summer. Right. Donny when it might have been little more seasonable. No, they did it in. Late January, which is you know, obviously, the most extreme weather. Wow. In that region to challenge themselves, and they were so specific about what they packs. One of the hikers knew that it was gonna be there was going to be a birthday celebrated and what they brought was in orange in an orange may not sound like much but in Russia in the middle of winter. It's a lot while on this person's birthday. They brought out the orange in shared the orange among the group while in that was a very amazing gesture to do that at that time. So everything they brought was absolutely needed. They did have a little bit of alcohol, but it was purely medicinal. So that's really that's really interesting, and it goes to the kind of people that were talking about here. The fact that that such a little thing. Like an orange. I mean to Americans they would take that for granted because we can go into a grocery store anytime of the year and get oranges and particularly in the middle of winter. We can get what Francey sumo citrus. We can get sumo Mandarin ordering are they sumo management actually comes. Well. It's called sumo citrus. But I think they that's the brand sumo's test. Yeah. But they only do do mandarins yet. Right. So we can actually get sumo Mandarin oranges throughout the entire winter. It's amazing. These are like amazing oranges. But that's not something you can do in Russia in certainly not in Siberia. So the fact that they would think in advance to do that. It's such a touching gesture and knowing the culture knowing what was available there the weight of that orange. I'm sure weighed on whoever had to carry it, even the hope a single orange isn't much. The fact is. Is that any extra ounce when you're trekking through the most treacherous terrain on the planet has to be a lot. Well, it's a great point Jim because it really shows that who these people were that they were gentlemen, adventurers. And you know, you have to also think about the care that would need to be taken for eight days to not smash that orange or lose it in keep it in good condition their attention to detail in their attention to forecasting. What is coming up into planning was meticulous? And these were not college kids out there, partying taking drugs or drinking. These were highly educated highly experienced students that were out there to conquer the distance. They were all business adventures. I almost feel like I know it's not true, especially when you look at our military heroes. But it's. Seems like that kind of adventurous spirit is dying out. Well, you know, it's also to consider here is that obviously they didn't have iphones back then. And one of the things that I recovered when I was there are a lot of their photos that they had actually taken on their cameras in. This is the time when you had twenty four thirty six exposures in every photo that was taken was a important photo. You didn't just bang off one hundred fifty photos in five minutes because you felt like it, right? These were also great insight into time in place because sometimes they would take photos of each other at the same time. So you could tell where they were one was writing in a diary. So that was really great to start putting the pieces of the puzzles together. Right. And can we just remind our listeners when this happened? This was in nineteen fifty nine nineteen fifty nine nineteen fifty long time ago is posts stalling, but you know, these these hikers were also experiencing somewhat of a cultural flowering, you know, things were starting to open up to them in to go and do these hikes was a form of escapism. So that they could co out in sing songs in play bone records. And do all this stuff that they felt it was very controlled by the government, they're university while. So this was sort of an active freedom. Absolutely. It was inactive freedom, and they would go out in in recite poetry that they wrote or forbidden poetry or even seeing forbidden songs. Beatles Elvis, really. Yeah. While it sounds amazing. I mean, I can understand Donnie why this story really peach your interest. This year make health and wellness a top priority with the help of care of monthly subscription vitamin service. Whether you're focused on glowing skin, boosting your energy levels, getting more sleep or generally being healthy, you should build a vitamin routine. That's made just for you and your health goals. 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Well, lived use promo code case to get ten dollars off your first box. That's over two hundred dollars worth of products for only thirty nine ninety nine go to fabric, fun dot com. Use our code case and get ten dollars off your first fab fit fund bucks. So let's talk about you going there. Well, what if you don't mind, but when a back step for the second, so to take you back to, you know, they find the ten okay? And they find all the hikers bodies. They recovered him over roughly a mile away. They were insufficiently dressed in sub zero conditions. Most had no socks a lot had ripped clothing on N even had each other's clothing on really in the majority of the hiker suffered violent injuries is some skull. Fractures, broken ribs. One of the girls was missing her tongue into the boys had charred arms and legs earned arms and legs. Okay. Now. Well, now, you see why is really pulling me maniac killer is on the loose perhaps. So what did you do the lead investigator at that time? He was actually a prosecutor Francey. He was forced to close the case in his final conclusion that what caused the death of the DR love hikers was in unknown. Compelling force. What? Okay. So I've been doing this law enforcement thing for I don't know thirty five years I've never ever ever heard of that being the death in God of either me either. So is that what really piqued your interest? Yes. So this unknown compelling force soon. Consumed my life. Well, force me to sort of figure out. What does an unknown compelling for me? Right. While that was my jumping off point. And I jumped on aero flood which I would never recommend flying. And sorry are flopped. But in I flew to Russia in met with Eureka Cevic while so just one more thing about that. So unknown compelling floors. But this was an actual experience. Prosecutor somebody that actually did this for living. This wasn't some bake or anything this conducted investigation. And that's what he concluded. This is the equivalent of a Russian Sherlock Holmes of the region. He had a perfect record of solved cases. So as you could imagine this would be absolutely devastating. While so unknown compelling or I mean, this sounds like area fifty one perhaps harder. Okay. So you get on a plane, but before you got on the plane. I'm just curious. You are a man from Florida. And as you've said, you don't really experience cold temperatures. What time of year was it that you were going to Russia summer will. Summer would have been smart. I did two trips. The the first trip was I believe in March. It was still very cold there. And that's when I sort of based my camp out Eureko vich is flat or his apartment, and it turned out. He had just this massive trove of previously unreleased data really uncovered the criminal case files hikers photos in their journals. Wow. So that sounds like something that could keep you busy as you sort of investigate will not sort of as you investigate this strange. Compelling force. You've got a lot to look at a laugh to review massive the criminal case file was over four hundred pages. And I had to get all that translated. I had Russian imagine. Yes. Yup. And I had negatives. That had never been printed that were. For crime scene photos, or I guess you could call them. I don't know what it was a crime scene or not it would they would have called it. But the rescue photos, I had all the autopsy photos in data is well as the hikers journals in photos from their cameras. So I just I was staying in town city called Yekaterinburg. Hope I'm pronouncing that correctly, and they actually had a one hour photo. Cirilli? I went to a one hour photo in started developing photos in what started to materialize was a huge pitcher of this investigation. Also, the the hikers story started to materialize. But there was one missing element a man by the name of your union who was one of the hikers with the hiking group who turn back halfway due to illness await that sounds suspicious, and is that the guy that was replaced by the gold tooth guy now. Nope. This was a different guy who was really good friends with eager outlaw in. He was studying geology as well as he was excellent hiker in outdoorsman, and he was going out there to to get geology samples as well. As to conquer the distance, and he had some health issues. In turn back half way. So I just wanna say so he claims. So I had a lot of people warning me, you're a union suspects. They'll never talk you'll never find him. Really? He's kind of gone, you know, become reclusive than but Donny. I know you. I know how hard you did when you got your teeth into something. I bet you did find it. All right. I did find him on my second trip to Russia. I got news that you're a union would be willing to talk and. Showed up at his place out in the middle of nowhere. And my translator was in our late. Really? So I sat there across from your union having tea not able to talk to the gentleman and just i-in each other in when the translator finally arrives. The first thing your union said was don't you have mysteries in your own country. Why why why do you care, and he proceeded to tell me to turn off? My Cold War tape recorder in basically, interrogated me for an hour till he felt that it were okay to turn back on the reporter. Wow. How did you convince them of that? I just did a lot of listening, and you know, you can imagine if a Russian where to come here and investigate the JFK assassination. In someone that was directly involved in the assassination would probably be a little suspect. Right. And on top of that. I'm sure that they don't trust their own government that much. So when they're talking to somebody from another country, they probably spec that person could be a government person or a spy. Well, you're absolutely right in. I think would do reason they don't trust their government. Think about it. I mean. I I love Russia. And I love the people I stayed with their I never stayed in a hotel always stayed with families than I believe that's way to do it. But it's a scary place. Man when I arrived on my second trip the person that picked me up at like four in the morning drop me off at the house. Somebody beat his car in with crowbars while somebody attacked the guy just because he picked you up somebody. Yeah. Somebody beat his car in the person that pick me up from the airport. And you know, I was told the next morning that you're gonna have to take public transportation. And I said oh, come on. Nope. Nobody wants to drive you. Everyone wants to help in his supporting you. But no one will drive you. Sure enough. Nobody would try me anywhere. So we had to take a bus. Criminal conspiracy to this old prosecutor right all so you take a bus around Russia. Yeah. So so you actually got to talk to him. Did he fill you in on details? Did you come away from that thinking that he could be a suspect? Well, you know, I had a lot of people told me he was a suspect in the be careful and in I really bonded with your union. And. Once I had all the photos from the hikers cameras laid out. He is the only person on earth that could tell me chronologically win in where the people were in really put together what those photos meant what they were doing at that time what they were writing about. It was just priceless. It was incredible the information that he gave me, and you know, he turns out he had survivor's guilt, which was really sad. And I told him I'm going to retrace the hikers footsteps where what he did. And you know, he would get up in the morning, and we were all sleeping in the same place had another nightmare that you're gonna suffer the same fate as hikers. I don't want you to go and almost tears in his eyes. And I'm like, oh my God. While dotty, this is really an interesting case. That I know there's so much more for us to talk about what we're going to have to continue it on our next episode best case worst case. So thank you for being here. Donnie, thank you guys. I really appreciate the time. All right. And we'll have you back. So we can finish hearing what happened to these nine hikers back in nineteen fifty not on the love pass inside Syria till next time. Thank you. For listening to best case worst. This case worst case is an ex g production produced by Jim Clementi at empire studios, LA engineered edited by Mike. Posed performed by Simba Suva and hosted by one you can listen to best case worst case on your favorite listening. We are on Spotify Stitcher, apple podcasts and wherever you listen to podcasts. If you want to do something about child sexual abuse darkness delight can help did you know that more than ninety percent of the time children are sexually abused by someone. They know Jim this isn't about stranger danger. It's about learning the true risks darkness to lights training can help prevent recognize and react to child sexual abuse in your community. When you make the decision to get involved. Kids can be protected. It starts with you. Visit WWW dot D two L dot org to take the training. In learn more. That's the the number two L dot org.

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Why track your glucose levels? - Josh Clemente, Levels Health, Ex-SpaceX engineer

The Kevin and Ryan Show

1:18:57 hr | 10 months ago

Why track your glucose levels? - Josh Clemente, Levels Health, Ex-SpaceX engineer

"Everyone Kevin Rose here welcome back to another episode of the Kevin Rose Show. Before we get into this episode, a quick reminder that I published an email newsletter that comes out every four to six weeks or so it's really once I've kind of accumulated enough for a newsletter I, publish it. So it's not weekly were I'm trying to figure out how to cram in stuff just to fill out a newsletter. This is really high quality things. Things have been paying attention to APPS and products I'm checking out sometimes little mini reviews and some. Great Tips on how to live a healthy and balanced life. You can sign up for that over my website at Kevin Rose Dot Com. Now, today's episode is All. About Glucose and insulin is impact on fat storage, energy levels, cancer and dementia risk, and why that even if you're skinny, you should consider tracking glucose levels with a continuous glucose monitor. So today's guest is Josh Clementi founder of levels, which is a startup that uses data and continuous glucose monitors to give people a window into the real time Health Josh's a mechanical engineer in. Cross fit L. to instructor in previously he developed life support systems at x, and actually the most recent launch that we all watched here, just a few weeks ago, tooth those astronauts to the space station back he was the one that had developed those life support systems which just insane, and then even previous to that he was working on another Elon Musk project hyperloop, and so he did that for Virgin hyperloop. So just insanely talented engineer fellow bio hacker and someone that really digs into the science to figure out what's going on with. Metabolic Syndrome Glucose and insulin. So I'm really excited to have him on the show will josh. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I can't wait to to dive into all things metabolic health. It's great to have you on. It's great to be here. I'm super excited to talk in in dig into some of the exciting stuff. Yeah. It's it is really exciting and I feel like there is a certain set of the population out there that are really into health whether it be the bio hackers or the early adopters and. You know we have been if you track the stuff as I do on, read it all over the place. We've been aware of of some of these issues and why this is so important for for a few years now but really curious to get your take on on what's going on why? Why do we CARE About Tracking Glucose? What is metabolic health and? You know were you think it's going in and why do you think it's GonNa be a big deal in a in a few years definitely at the highest level metabolism is the set of cellular mechanisms that our bodies used to make energy from our food and environment. So it's it's fundamental to life in order to power any process in any cell in the. Body whether muscular or brain we need energy and so that metabolic layer is how we get that energy and where we get that energy is up to us. That's the lifestyle choices we make and our food breaks down into two primary molecules in the body glucose and fat, and the way our bodies sort of store those access them is in individual very. Very, different both between the two substrates and between individuals. So ultimately, what we're talking about here is the concept of metabolic fitness which means optimizing these metabolism mechanisms so that you can produce energy effectively access it whether stored in the body or from food that we consume in an efficient way to power everything that we need cognitive function to physical fitness. While maintaining optimal weight and the mental characteristics that reduce risk. So long term when metabolic dysfunction sets in we see things that ranged from prediabetes type two diabetes all the way to sexual health dysfunction pcs the number one cause of infertility mood disorders Alzheimer's disease is being called type three diabetes stroke cardiovascular disease this whole host of problems that we talk about social scale but we don't necessarily focus on the underpinnings, which is chronic lifestyle choices leading metabolic breakdown it. What is it that that changes like I I think of you know how I felt when I was a teenager or you know just I would throw anything into my gut it didn't remember what it was. Limitless energy you know run play all day crash out and feel amazing the next morning like what happens between you know that teenager kind of life and then getting into your I, Dunno I I started noticing that certain changes here. I'd say probably in my early thirties like what what's happening there yeah, it's it's a complex multi variant problem. But what we know is that you can kind of think of this as interest on deposits we make. So we have compounding effects of the choices were making over years and decades which ultimately lead to an outcome, and so every day you may not have an acute symptom especially in the early years. Young adulthood after consuming specific meal or. You know skipping a night of sleep but over time as these become habits inhabits lead to outcomes, we we start to to sort of experience the compounding return on those on those choices and This is essentially hormonal imbalances. So the body is of this big wet chemistry set is kind of how we should think about it. It's not a pristine. Machine where you know input equals output. It's everything is chemical releases and responding to the other chemicals in the body, and so when we make specific choice especially around diet nutrition, we're causing the body to respond to that Miss Specific Way. Ultimately, you stuck bias towards a hormonal environment that is You know in some cases adoptive positive and other cases maladaptive. So This is this is the the hormonal theory of weight gain and and disease, which has recently come to the forefront as opposed to older nutritional concepts like just the calories model of energy exchange and I I. I really subscribed to this because I'm very similar to you when I was younger I. Was a candy addict I was playing sports all the time but just fueling pure sugar and I would eat literally anything within grasp at anytime day or night you know just no concern for nutritional guidelines kind because I was exercising I consider myself to be super fit and now in in. The later years I've ultimately the reason I've become even interested in tablets specifically is because I kinda hit this wall of personal fatigue and mental. Mood, swings that related directly to my physical energy and all of this ultimately, I found out through accessing my. Sugar information to be driven by choices. I was making. So the the meals I was eating the sleep habits, the stress management techniques, the exercise timing all of this was causing like a really wild instability in not only my glucose levels, but then the hormones that are downstream of them and I really think this was A. Compounding effect. Over Two decades of of making just frivolous decisions without any real 'cause man's then I I was in that boat I was just talking to a friend of mine yesterday remember pop rocks Oh. Yes. I was talking to him about that as we had a drink that I'd open it. It was like Super Fazli and I was reminded me all of a sudden for some reason back to those pop sue us to eat and he's like pop in your mouth and I was thinking Oh my God that was pure sugar like just pure sugar. It was just like Oh poor this sugar into your mouth and swallow it gets crazy and we did that with all kinds of crap. You know like those dip sticks to you just put the sticks in your. Fund dips. Yeah it was so bad. At. The nerds. nerds and the nerds ropes. Attached to twizzlers which he then his chew on for hours right? Yeah it's. It's crazy. So. What I think about the evolution of our knowledge in nutrition the body, and you know I think back to just a few years ago and it was like all about, okay Super Low carb cutting out sugar. then. There's people that are in the camp of Vegetarian those people in the camp that are Vegan and you know people are changing their diets and they do feel better when they make these changes, you know some people are key. Now they feel much better. What do we know what's happening behind the scenes? Why did these changes make people feel better and Kinda word you stand on all those different types of inputs What what what what are your thoughts? Well, I, I used to be a very calories in calories out person where it really did not matter where the food source was or what it was rather with the macro nutrient. Balanced wasn't that really mattered. What mattered was just whether you're getting enough energy to two or the appropriate amount of energy for what you're doing, and recently especially in the past since twenty fifteen essentially new technology like real time biomarker tracking has allowed us a much higher resolution of information about what happens in the body of a person. Without diagnose metabolic dysfunction when they eat different foods and so a prime example of this is the recent breakthroughs in the personal understanding, of blood, sugar, response from studies like the Weizman Institute study from Twenty Fifteen, which put continuous glucose monitors on eight hundred people without diagnose metabolic dysfunction and demonstrated that two people can eat the exact same foods and have equal and opposite blood sugar responses to them, and this implication is massive because what it does flips over the concept that there is a one-size-fits-all solution for diet and you know. The implication of having blood sugar that it is extremely high to one food and flat to another that somebody else has the opposite of spots to implies that there has hormonal downstream effect that will be opposite as well. So the amount of insulin that your body releases and the rate of release will be different because the blood sugar you know basically your body responds with hormones to the amount of glucose in your blood to get out into cells for energy production in if that is a slow in control process, the insulin release will. Be Flown Control. However, if that's a wave, you know basically a spike in the blood sugar levels, your body has to spike insulin to get that taken up into the cells and insulin spikes ultimately to, as we know from from longstanding research, eventual insulin resistance where we are in a constant state of elevated insulin, ourselves become known to them and so that that that original implication of which foods ike personally sensitive to in a classic sense hasn't has very large patients for how my body is responding in storing those those Those foods essentially as as fat or energy use the muscles and the rate of responses is really important there. So this type of research and you know there's there's been additional trials of glucose types trial in Stanford. The King's College Studies in the UK which actually showed that. This effect of individuality extends all the way to identical twins hundred how? Yeah. So it must be or by unrelated than. Yeah. Well. There's a ton of different underlying variables could be genetics play some role because you can see some genetic overlap. In particular the foods that are sensitive to still have that that really strong difference between people. So some genetic component, some microbiome component seems to be. The ride sleeps a big one. That's exactly right. So so a lot of it I think is context. So it's it's what is your body composition us so body mass will matter adipose tissue amount of muscle muscle on the skeleton and then the amount of sleep and stress that you're experiencing in real time with all of that is going to play into how your hormones are responding, and so I I really think that it's contextual and even though you'll we'll have those like specific permanent I. Think Sensitivities, which might be allergies they might be genetic micro-bionic. You will also have this this context which you can you can manipulate, and that is really where I'm most interested is like taking real time data, giving it to the individual and allowing them to guide their choices with a closed loop feedback system. So can either improve your sensitivities for guide around them to make sure that year optimizing. Yeah. This just makes so much sense. I I like to give the analogy of of. Any modern car that has you know hundreds of sensors on it like my my tesla will tell me my back left tire is down by. Two percentage points in the air and it needs and we have no window into what's going on in the human body in a real time Nature Intel these continuous glucose monitor started come out in. So it's fascinating. I feel very fortunate that my my Dr Peter Attiyah, he put me on a CG a continuous Glucose Monitor. I guess it's been almost five years now. Wow. I started wearing one and so we have a ton of data around that but he did. So because in most physicians it a physical, they will never do this. But this is a great first step. I think for a lot of people I'm curious if you agree but a Tia, had me do glucose tolerance test. I would go into the actual office. It's harder these days with covid. You go in, you get your blood drawn. You got what Your Baseline Glucose levels are fasting. You drink this drink, which is just pure sugar, and then you do blood draws. You know what is it about every half hour? Yeah rocks. For essentially, for a couple of hours and you can see not only how high did you spike but also the insulin levels during that time period, and then how good you are at disposing of your the glucose you know how? Quickly as it returned to baseline and we found out the is why he put me on C. GM is we found out. Pri Diabetic I don't have diabetes, but I'M A horrible disposer of Glucose I stay elevated longer than I should. And so that was like a little bit of a red flag like we need to pay attention to. This is something we needed to track and I would have to imagine there are a lot of people in a in a similar situation and the the other thing to your earlier point about not all foods being equal and being. So different between individuals it's funny you know. Seven eight years ago I was paying close attention to the glycemic index load of foods, and this is a number that associated with a food as kind of like a blanket one size fits all a piece of white bread has this much indexes, Michigan Simic. Load Brown rice has this right but the crazy thing is the second I started putting. On the GM I did all those tests I'm like, Oh, I can have brown rice because it has a lower glycemic globe. But guess what for me Brown Rice shoots me up through the roof like well, how's that possible at a totally makes sense based on what you're saying it is it is it is. It's so based on the individual that you. Almost have to throw away everything we knew Batman or without we knew about glycemic load in glycemic index, which would you agree with that? Absolutely agree across all the points. So the first I wanna I wanNA concept one at a time because there are also relevant to where we are today how we got here. So the physician question know Peter for. Small is like totally luminary in the space like really shining a light on the underlying manifestations of metabolic syndrome that go beyond just your standard threshold effect prediabetes diabetes like we have this concept in society that I'm just metabolic we healthy or I'm not and not just that's binary switch there's no in between and what it is especially like his most recent. Ama episode with really fascinating here because it goes into actual case studies of people who are manifesting metabolic dysfunction somewhere on a spectrum. So it's not great. It's not a disaster, but there in the middle and they really have to make some some real serious life changes in order to continue, optimizing and remain healthy longer term because it could very quickly transition into something that and I'm I'm very similar to you in the sense that I'm just objectively. Carbon tolerant It's kind of across the board very small quantities extremely careful about fiber content and in mix macronutrients including protein in a good fats I'm going to stay elevated at a very high level for for hours and so my experience. Initially, we see Jim very different than yours unfortunately I'm glad to hear that Dr So forward, thinking with this, I knew he was, but for me, my mind is when I first became interested in. continuous glucose monitoring. It was after I had been working at SPACEX on life support systems for about six years and I kind of burned out physically and mentally in some ways. But also had realized that this burnout was it seems to be counterintuitive because I was very physically fit and across to trainer and I really care about fitness. But for some reason, my health or the way that I felt did not reflect the way that I thought of myself in terms of health, and so I went to a doctor and I I did a bunch of research on my. Own discovered that Meta metabolic breakdown in endocrine breakdown Israeli, underlying all energy issues essentially, and so I was asking for full blood panel. I'd love to get more information yet have some quantitative to drive my choices and I'd like to get access to see John and take some concrete data by doctor. Kinda, laughed at me. It was just like this is this is people like you're you're underweight if anything you need to stop worrying about this, this isn't a concern at all I would know because you're a one C would be over five point nine or something, and that's where you. And the sharks played a paper real quick agency is just yes. Sorry. Sorry So so is it it's basically measuring the amount of glucose that binds red blood cells, and so it red blood cell lifts for about ninety days on average and so if you can measure the amount of glucose stuck to a red blood cell, you can kind of approximate the average blood sugar of that individual. Now the issue here is some people's red blood cells last ninety days some last one hundred and twenty days some last only seventy, five days, and so it's very, very rough in inaccurate calculation of average glucose whereas a continuous glucose monitor is measuring your blood sugar full-time and is giving you average glucose. You just divide the amount of the your glucose levels over the day it'll just spit out average glucose. So it once he has a very rough measurement and the way that this physician standard care approaches this. is they wait until your average blood sugar has exceeded a threshold of objective disorder before you start monitoring in a more meaningful way or intervening in the problem there is it takes very, very long time periods of dysfunction for your agency to break. Right imagine it's almost too late at that point right? It certainly more complicated I mean at a minimum I think it is you know Verte health and some others have shown that you can reverse the symptoms of diabetes even when it's dramatic with with diet focused lifestyle but. Why should we wait until that time? Why are we not constantly towards optimal and trying to be well ahead of any dysfunction because ultimately The side effects of of metabolic breakdown are devastating unites. It attacks the nervous system attacks, vascular attacks, the arteries of the heart you lose your sense of sight and touch in all these things start to break down because of exposure to you a radical oxidative species are oxygen species, which are really these reactive byproduct of having elevated glucose in the in the presence of oxygen and so. We really want to avoid having these situations and it's it's really not a concept that most physicians certainly not mainstream medicine is is thinking about and so unfortunately, I did not get asked us to see GM for about fourteen sixteen months and when I did I found out similar to you that I was either borderline diabetic or pre diabetic depending on who you ask. And this is I didn't have an oral glucose tolerance test. This was just Mike lyceum response after meals was was remaining elevated for hours and the pre diabetic zone, and this is something that did not show up on again my Onc- tasks on fasting glucose test. So using that see jam, I was able to start to implement closed loop decisions. So testing foods testing. Sleep and stress, and how I was responding to different choices as making every day seeing how my blood sugar responded and then implementing permanent habit change. So the it's really I mean it sadly, it's still extremely difficult to get access to see gems from standard physician. I have had several friends that have reached out to their primary care provider and they say, Nope, like. Are. They worried doctors worried of writing prescription that may come back to bite them in some way? Why won't they just more freely write these? You know it's or a really good question and something that I think unfortunately is. To some extent, due to a culture of litigation, and we really put the onus on physicians to be perfect and so there's a there's a long history of malpractice actions being taken against physicians who I think are trying their best to to make the choices best for the patient but I I think when ultimately needs to is. A bit of fear of moving into an experimental space or space. It hasn't been rigorously demonstrated to be the ideal standard of care and so in this exact example, where using monitoring technology that was developed for the management of diabetes but using it for a completely different population, which is interested in avoiding long-term dysfunction or making optimal choices it seems like. Certain physicians and unnecessary risk to have anyone use any medical product that is not designed specifically for their use case and It's an unfortunate thing is something that we're going to change in the coming. Months and years as people realize that real time information is the thing that's been missing from their daily life. You know everybody's sitting down and making choice for lunch like what am I gonna eat and why and all of us you know with very few exceptions are doing that based on Internet advice something that worked for a friend or just taste you. Know the way it makes you feel, and unfortunately that's skipping all of the under the hood effects like the hormonal implications and a long term compounding interest on on those choices which we don't have any feedback loop for we don't know is that a positive or negative choice until now and once people realize that and you know there will be a. An. Access to personal health information component of this. So we're starting to see a transition society to the point where people want their own data to be fair to own it whether that's data from Social Media and privacy implications or you know your your own bodies health information biological information. We should own that at the individual level and we should be able to. You know reach out and combined forces with an expert or a medical provider that we trust and give them access to that data. But we certainly shouldn't have the situation where there's kind of a gatekeeper scenario where we can't access our own data from our own bodies because of a kind of this, this nebulous concept of of I don't know litigious legiter malpractice concerns. Diamond. It requires both parties to change their perspectives and have a little responsibility. Do you think this eventually gets to over the counter? It's crazy today that you can actually go into any drugstore and buy a standard glucose reader meaning like you prick your finger, you put a drop of blood in don't have to have any type of a prescription for that. But yet a device that does the same thing I get. I get that it's a little bit deeper needle. You've gotta Kinda Swab with alcohol. Thank like he do on both both cases it just seems silly to me that it's the same thing about one is. How long until we we see over the counter continuous glucose monitors but I'm very optimistic. You know I I think that. Just, given the scale of the of the problem in the also the. Optimistic potential outcome. You know if if the the mainstream market uptakes this as the Bio wearable future I, I think it's going to be really a an amazing come and so there is a lot of incentive pushing in this direction for amazing new breakthroughs in the technology both accuracy availability affordability as I think we were seeing some great progress in this direction and I do believe it will. Become over the counter soon, and this will eventually be integrated into a wearable that you kinda would think of as your career aura, you know something very minimal and easy to use. Now in terms of timing, I'M GONNA guess that this is going to happen on the two to five year timeframe. We'll see like a, you know a direct over the counter solution and you know I think. One thing that is a little bit tricky is you know it's hard to it's hard to determine specifically y the regulation exists. It's arguable that for someone who is managing diabetes currently with with Zionists Insulin. Insulin that you have to inject because your pancreas isn't producing it. If you're wearing a see GM, you're making those choices based on the data. It's definitely possible that a malfunction the device could cause a life threatening situation for that person if they if they inject the wrong amount of insulin, insulin is deadly Ronin into into I of quantities so that that's a scenario that understand there should be some protectionists regulation around. But if you look at the much much lower risk population, you know the people who are not use insulin exigency are not dosing medication this but instead, they're just choosing whether or not to go to McDonalds or like what? What time of exercise how much sleep together get this is an extremely low risk. And far lower risk than that finger pricked by siege talked about because you know with that device, you're actually penetrating into the bloodstream you're bleeding out now have an in your fingertip, which is exposed more germs than on your any other part of our bodies whereas the GM is a little film it you know it's a single. Does break the skin, but stays in a single location at sealed off with a piece all the way around you know, and it's a full-time high resolution industry to the quality of the information is so much better. So I really think that the the argument in favor of making this readily accessible and available, it's just very well stated already will continue to get more obvious. So, if someone does we'll talk about the ways to to get access to your data both in terms of devices and and the finger pricking. Let's say someone does notice. Okay. Well, first of all, what you consider abnormal like if someone is looking at their glucose levels. I guess we can say you could do this without having to have a C. GM. Right you can go and get a device at your drugstore prick your finger measure premium will measure thirty minutes after a meal in our after a meal and get the same data. It's not going to be in five minute increments like you would with the GM. But if you just want to say listen I, don't have the budget to go and do this but I do have you know fifty seventy five dollars to go play with the test this out and see. Where I stand on a few meals. Yeah. What ranges are you looking at? Were you like to fall? What would you consider to be healthy? You know a pretty significant debt to people like Doctor Rhonda Patrick Jason Fong, others who are really looking hard at the space and pushing to redefine what is what is normal, and what is optimal and especially in a world where were specifically the United States were eighty eight percent of American adults are metabolic the unhealthy thirty, five insanity. It's hard to imagine but thirty five percent are either diabetic or pre diabetic. We have seventy percent obesity or overweight in this country and rates of childhood obesity are on the rise non alcoholic fatty liver disease. It's like all of these terrifying statistics and then you go look at how the sort of normal ranges are developed for blood sugar control in. It's basically an average of people who have diabetes. That's kind of how these ranges have been developed in realize that's not what I wanNA talk I don't want to be in the normal range I want to be in the morning we're every day I'm making choices that are improving my long term health outcomes not just. Fitting somewhere in the middle of this metabolic unhealthy data set. So at our current company levels were currently taking a hard look at the research that does exist and unfortunately. The non diabetic blood sugar space unstudied essentially, not just under studied There are very, very few trials that were done with continuous glucose monitoring in people without diabetes. What does exist there shows that for the lowest risk. So basically, the bottom core of risk for long term chronic illness people maintain. Glucose. Levels between seventy and one, hundred, ten or one hundred, twenty milligrams per deciliter for ninety, five percent or ninety, nine percent of the day and so that's where I really liked to aim I. I actually personally tried to keep my blood sugar below one hundred or hundred, ten including meals twenty, four seven and my average as sheet to keep. At between say eighty five and ninety five milligrams per deciliter, and these are much tighter than the American Diabetes Association, Normal Ranges and certainly It remains to be seen as we continue to improve both the population who is using this. So expanding accessibility and increase in the data set that all these information is derived from. We're going to get much better high resolution information on outcomes as a result of like where people are staying in what ranges they're staying and and so I think this is a space study you to stay under one ten after a meal like an hour after a meal. Yeah. fulltime out keep my CGM data I'll always wonder one, hundred, ten Arjan. Steak like. Like how do you? Like no carbs like what are we talking about here? So you know it's I. Actually do eat a fair number of cards a lot of it comes in the form of nuts and seeds. Cashews and almonds, and a lot of almond butter and I also eat very high fiber carbs. So I have this kind of daily. It's almost like a cold cereal type thing, but it's like Greek yogurt. Week. Bran flaxseed. Protein powder mixed us all up and it's it's really kind of a delicious treat up blueberries in there which I have a very positive response to is not I i. don't like off the charts and I think that's low glycemic fruit with high fiber that just works for me, and so I found the foods that I can kind of indulgent and get eighty to one hundred, twenty grams of carbs day out of without this this large blood sugar excursion result. So you know this is kind of. For me, it took me some time to find this combination of foods that really works well, but I certainly do not eat like a carnivore and actually don't even eat ketogenic I I have a a pretty mixed diet all things considered and Casey Means Actually Casey means is my co-founder levels and she's a stanford trained surgeon and then she turned functional medicine and she's one hundred percent plant based and fascinating despite having a diet that is largely vegetables in largely carbohydrate ace. The best classy cement control on you know of the entire data set that I've seen. So her blood sugar typically stays below hundred including post meal and you know this is like with beans and with you know a lot of a lot of vegetables, some of which are starchy and tons of carbohydrate, and so it's really fascinating and and certainly there is individual element but. The beauty of it is with that data. You can find what works for you and just cling to it, and you actually see so I've seen improvement in my insulin sensitivity. So the way that I respond to even a carbon me all that I don't typically indulgent is much better now as a result of kind of retraining my body and probably lowering my instant background levels. So when you say retraining your body, you know I. Diet is a piece of this I. Think we've got one big takeaway for people at home that you should figure out whether it be through spot checking or or a C. GM like what foods are offenders for you and what kind of keeps you in a and healthy range. So that's the food component of it. Now, when you're talking about what are the things that you can do for your body in terms of exercise, you know Attiyah talks about zone to cardio fitness like what are your thoughts on on ways to Kinda sensitize the muscles in get them so they're doing some lifting as well. That's a huge one I think that. Given the way that muscle can. So muscle is a separate type of tissue in the body can actually use glucose even without insulin, and so however, it can only do that in a low insulin environment. And so specifically, adding more muscle to your body will improve the amount of tissue that can consume glucose without having to increase the amount of insulin. So it's definitely something I would encourage adding strength training and in your building some muscle but then also depleting your collection using the blood sugar stores that are both on your body in your bloodstream is a is. A really big one, and then exercising in proximity to meals. This is like if there's any take home, this is the one I would I would advise I've personally seen with my jam data taking a walk after a meal especially indulgent meal with a lot of carbohydrates can completely change the blood sugar response that you'll see or budget excursion that you'll see. I did Click dive into that a little bit I'm curious because I've heard mixed things on this and that some people say it has to be a pretty intense walk of the people say just you know a stroll around the block. You know you have Tim Ferriss as the world that we're doing this a long time ago that we're doing air squats in the bathroom in between between the courses of meal like where do you have to be? What is your heart rate have to get up to like what? What's your take on that? Yeah. Well. That's a that's a really good question I personally actually see the best results from a brisk walk now not we're not race walking or anything, but Mike my heart rate. When I'm moving at a comfortable piece, walking will be around one, hundred hundred and five beats per minute and so I'll. If I eat a a meal that I know is Pretty Richard actually this is now just a habit I like to walk after every. Meal I'll do a fifteen to twenty minute walk at a brisk pace in again nothing strenuous. I'm not breaking a sweat, but the fact that we're using the largest muscles in our body during that time when the when the carbohydrates beaten are breaking down into glucose and flooding into the bloodstream, your muscles can pull those directly in as opposed to waiting for the insulin signal to store that who cuss as either glycogen or fat depending on. How, how much energy or storage capacity you haven't in glycogen so for people especially people who want to avoid weight gain, this is really easy and honestly a really nice habit to implement. You know because we all serve to we all benefit from walking more and and just getting up and doing afternoons seeing in the data, how positive that changes on versus eating the exact same meal without a walk is really powerful for people and. So. I actually see Yeah. Great results without having to go through strenuous and I nobody should really worry too much about having to air squats, push ups or anything in between meals at doesn't seem super practical. So I I would just encourage generally try and get up and walk in as quickly as possible after a big meal and you'll feel you'll see a really good. Yeah. Walk to from restaurants you doing fifteen twenty minutes thirty minutes. With was. Fifteen to twenty is is kind of sweet spot for me Obviously. The longer the better you know I think in general like if you can do thirty forty minutes, feel happy about it. You know by all means I, I would encourage it. Definitely, I've seen dramatic improvement in post meal response especially on those nights that you wanna kind of indulge a little bit more. WHAT ABOUT SAUNA USAGE? Because I do that post dinner sometimes, you know it's not getting your Mu-. While I mean your heart rate does go up so I can get my heart rate up to about. One, fifteen, two or so. For if I do a twenty minute, one, hundred, eighty, five degrees sauna while you think there's benefits there as well. I believe there are I'm not a super expert on the stuff, but I personally family install dishonored recently at at our family home and so when I go back I, I definitely use that often I've seen some interesting results in the in blood sugar data oftentimes, it will my glucose actually increase a lot of that has to do with the the actual sensor heating. Exactly. Yeah. The resist of sensor elements are likely being affected there. So I don't have really good data in terms of glucose control on whether or not sauna is a is actively disposing of. Glucose from the bloodstream or were not but you know I could certainly see if your if your body is being stressed by the heat you release Cortisol and other stress hormones which could be causing you know low lower glucose disposal, which which you also see this fact if you're doing high intensity exercise like above ninety percent of heart rate on A. Lot of people see actually a flooding the bloodstream with glucose as he tries to respond to this sort of fighter flight scenario and and just give you as much energy as possible. So there's this kind of threshold effect in offer me in I haven't yet seen like a glucose disposal but others they have described this. It's really interesting. The differences there too. Yeah. I haven't looked at that have to do a pizza night in the Sahel. Staff a chief. Yeah, no it's. These types of things are so fascinating because finding the hacks and learning about the first of all understanding. Exactly. We touched on scenic index awhile back but I'm just seeing whether or not. There's any real sort of content there for for the individual I. Think it's really education. A lot of people leaned. So heavily on the glycemic index and then you test brown rice versus white rice and you realize this is this is exactly the same and the result of that for many people is just the glycemic index is. An average and it's normalized to one hundred against against pure glucose and so Everyone's peak response to food is forced into into this normalized rating scale against Jerk Glucose, which removes all the individual individuality, and so it's perfectly possible for one person to have a response of, let's say, hundred ten milligrams per deciliter around rights, and then another person to have her blood sugar spots two, hundred, fifty milligrams per deciliter to brown rice, and as long as they also responded proportionally glucose. That's the consider it. They like force. It that kind of a like force it down to normalization to on a scale of one hundred, and so all of that nuance is lost and when we look at just the glycemic index were looking at incomplete information restricts out the personalization. So having the data that you can understand like is eating brown rice after every workout in order to quote unquote replenish glycogen the best for me or am I completely overdoing it spending two hours in the pre diabetic blood sugar range then having an insulin crash and then feeling. Sluggish. In wanting more food and going to the ice cream cabinet or whatever, and this is the type thing that we're all half it's happening too many people in the background and have no context or they don't understand you'll have the closed loop feedback. So it's just so powerful to be able to see this stuff happening real time. Yeah. Absolutely. What are your thoughts on on sleep I noticed that for me if I get less than say seven hours or just a bad night's sleep, you know you have a couple Glasses of wine and you're tossing and turning a little bit and hot at night. Yeah. I wake up and I would say Ten to fifteen points higher sometimes, only glucose depending on on my sleep A. DC sleeping a big big factor here as well. I see the exact same thing and I'm actually embarrassingly currently cruising about fifteen to twenty percent higher on my baseline blood sugar today I took a red eye yesterday and didn't get much sleep and and so I'm playing catch up on my sleep in my glucose response. The same exact way I will see this. This is basically my my baseline blood sugar without any calories. is increase and then also it seems like I have this acute insulin resistance where any food that I eat that has some carbohydrates in it. My response would be much worse for the for honestly for up to several days until I'm able to restore that sleep debt and so asleep genetic is huge. Everyone can see the difference in their data for the most part between a five hour of sleep and a nine hour night asleep. And like you know we're working with people. The folks over at eight sleep hoople really good sleep data combining that with blood sugar data and a really interesting pilot potential here for us to demonstrate exactly how. Metabolic control is affected by sleep control vice versa you know these are essentially inextricably linked. You know I've seen those eight sleep mattresses right that they do I've yet to try one. Do you have you checked out that you'd think it's pretty high fidelity data I think it's really good data in most interesting it's the movement because it's underneath the body the full body also because it's as temperature data to, which is really fascinating something that's kind of missed by most of the sleepwear also does a good job playing temperatures while, but it's really cool. I, think to have that high resolution data show specifically higher body temperatures responding. For the most part, the most interesting thing to me is how much alcohol is involved here make a lot of people. You. Know, they think that a nightcap know having a glass of wine or a beer before bed can help them sleep, and then when you see data especially from gate sleep, who can show it in such high resolution that no. In fact, that's like raising your body temperature by one two, three degrees all through the night and you're tossing and turning, and you spend much time in deep sleep It is really fascinating and then there's also the metabolic effect of alcohol consumption which counter intuitively for most people actually reduces blood sugar and I. Think there's a lot of hormonal response there where as your blood sugar reduces. Hormones are released that increase hunger and reduce tidy, and so people will often having drinks not only as their sleep effect but also there you know feeling a high increased appetite for carbohydrates and indulgence. Now, how many times if people had drinks one night slept woken up with acute insulin resistance gone to a big brunch because it really hungry. and. You know now the effects are like twice or three times worse than they had to be. Yeah absolutely I mean you're describing a lot of brunches for me is. Is. That reason. Exactly. a curious on on your kind of sounds like we've already got a couple of really great hacks for people looking to to get back on track. One thing I had heard about I. I saw a study on it, but I don't know where it's I'd never read the study was around the order in which you eat your proteins versus starches is that is that just make believe is there is a real data there. I'd never looked at the study they're. They're they're certainly appears to be an awesome. The study was conducted as people, the study participants and they gave him the exact same meal in different orders. So imagine like there were vegetables, proteins, and fats all in this mixed this mix macro nutrient meal, and so they gave the study participants they started off with eating carbohydrates I and then eating the protein in vegetables, and then they switch the order in had vegetables with fiber. I in the protein fat carbohydrates last and fascinating. There is a huge effect in both blood sugar response and also insulin response which to me was the most interesting thing was insulin was affected by this given that you're eating number hydrates. So I'm actually looking at the results right now and the insulin effect was Let's see the peak cosplaying was hundred people or leader with the CARBS I and with vegetables I it was. Five hundred. So basically reduced the insulin response by over half by just putting the same meal in a different order and glucose response was was improved by about it looks like about twenty five percent and so like that's the the amazing thing there is likely in effect from digestion. So when you have the fiber upfront, it might have kind of a mechanical effect where it limits the rate that because there's a bunch of fiber in their. At, might limit the rate that the sugar breaks down and get into the bloodstream. Fat seems to have a similar effect on constricting the digestive pathways and and slowing things slowing things down. So taking a blood sugar spike turning it into a slow that increase and I think that's what's going on there. I'm not an expert, but I certainly have internalized that study and I always push to put the fire and vegetables up front in an indulgent use. Yeah it's really cool that there's data to back it up. It's one of the things that I'm really eager to research on now. Do you have to do that? Let's say, let's take a plate. Dinner veggies chicken no sugar no desert nothing like that. Does it really because those are low offenders generally, right like you're just having like a vinaigrette or something all dressing does it really matter at that point? Like are you going to see that big a difference if you do salad I or well this is a I think we're having individual data super powerful because you can kind of make that choice on the fly known for and for many meals. When you just describe it's unlikely to have a big. Individual variation because there's there's not much you know sort of. Rapid acting carbohydrate in that meal. But for some people, they might have a personal response and certainly for meals that you know you have a strong personal budget response to that's where you can kind of make these these decisions like Yeah. Macro Nutrient order making sure the evidence big salad advanced vinaigrette vinegars actually outside in your particular is also shown to control blood. Sugar Response and then maybe choosing to walk after that meal specifically. So you can kind of make these context driven visions because you know, okay I'm going to have brown rice tonight where I'm going to how sweet potato with my meal Pasta and I know how I respond to that and I'm GonNa, make sure that order my meals appropriately in an also just. Be a little active afterwards, and it's really strong habit forming Driver when you see that data and you get the the negative reinforcement when you choose not to do these little tweaks and then the positive reinforcement when you do and you see much better scores and data you know coming from your own body, right? It's like it's your body telling you great work. You did it's not like a coach or somebody else looking at it's just you and yourself. between you and your body. So I think it's very context specific you need to understand explore before you can start to make those danger choices. And then what about rate of consumption chewing if anything there, I don't have any purcell. Inside on yet something is probably consider. Now one thing that I do know is instant kind of similar but let's say juice versus whole fruit. So you can kind of assume that like a juice or a smoothie is similar to taking a whole fruit in like chewing it up in advance. Let's just think of that way. So you've already processed broken the food, the fruit down and then or vegetables down, and then you're Kinda, just drinking directly rather than having to do all that chewing and so the effect of a whole, a whole fruit versus a smoothie or in particular oppress juice where you've you've squeezed all the liquid out and strip, the fiber away is credit profound. LARGEST SPIKES I ever had was I went to a organic juice car in New York and strolling up, they're looking for something. Tasty. Nutritious because I had just taken a flight and I picked a drink call health drink which was apple celery and carrot and I watched the The lady prepare it, and she just like pulled the fruit and vegetables impress them. There was no additives at all and I drank this sixteen ounce drink feeling pretty good about myself. Michael trigger was over two hundred milligrams per. Hour. Sane it's wild and I mean I can eat an apple and I can eat carrots can celery carrots and celery like don't even move my glucose with most part an apple will but I won't exceed one hundred ten most likely for green apple as seeing like by stripping out that fiber and just you know condensing this into glass chugging ineffectively I had just given myself a straight up pre diabetic episode for no reason actually assuming that it was healthier was good. Choice for me and I think people are doing this all the time on necessarily and it's static is really depressing the you know it's funny Joshua My wife writes about food and she did an article one time talking about it. I don't think it was the main piece of the article, but there is definitely a big section. They're talking about the dangers of just straight juicing in ripping out of the fiber and you know what it can do the body and. Like dozens if not more, the producers got on there and just they are hard core I had no idea that the producers will like tear you up like they're like they're really bought into this idea that choosing is the ultimate healthy food and in reality I mean I'm the same as you take anyone throw on a C. GM and I would I would say nine tenths ten, you're gonNA see spikes that are not healthy in any way not I'm. Not saying the underlying ingredients in nutrients are bad because of course, that's not the case, right but the sugar in the delivering the mechanism, the fact that it has been all predigested away it just it's not good for you. It's crazy and you know I actually have a pretty good hack for this. I will occasionally make a smoothie kind of like what you mentioned with the Greek Yogurt with your your blueberries and you know I will take some fruits. That I wouldn't normally I know have been bigger offenders for me. A great example is You know we get this when when oranges are in season, we'll get some light locally like fresh squeezed orange juice and I'll put a quarter cup in smoothie and I won't see any movement at all. If I were to Chug that quarter, Cup straight up without the extra fat I would be like the bad I still get all of the flavor in some the. Vitamin, C. and some of the great nutrients from the orange but I make sure to pair it properly will one of two things one. You could probably just eat a orange which would be much better and it is it is a slower delivery mechanism as well. Right because you're chugging it but when I do throat with fat, I don't see. So it's not to say you can't have these juices. It's just that you gotta figure out the delivery mechanism in. Throwing a bunch of fat as like a binder with it I this right word. But you know what I'm saying like about for a buffer, right? Exactly. That could help I. Totally agree it's all context and portion control is something that that really does matter. It's not. We're not making the argument of of calories here. We're not saying don't overeat were saying the context in the way that your body has to respond to a rate of increase of your blood sugar is is very specific and very real. It's not this is not a weight gain balanced calories. It's a it's a question of whether you know if some is good is more better. Always and I don't think that's actually true. It's not the infant oranges good. Should we strip out all the pops that we can pack ten origins into a glass chuck it probably not you know there's always limitations and we should find small you know and I think this is where the the people who are really hard core about any dietary philosophy missing the boat is that it's perfectly possible that the dietary philosophy that you subscribe to can be consumed in a data driven way at using objective data to optimize. It's not necessarily that no one should ever drink prestigious, but I would think that who really believes in the nutritional qualities of. Fruits and vegetables should just drive to to have meaningful advice for how people can consume them in a way that is going to work for them and reduce their risk while also getting those nutrients now might be portion control might be different ingredients might be timing only having them right before or right after exercise or what have you but there are certainly you know limitations to the idea that. Drinking press vegetables is always better for you than alternatives like health. Officials. Yes. Curious. Real quick on the supplemental side. You know there's there's cinnamon. There's a whole slew of different things that have been reported to help. You know I don't even know like you always see these on the side of labels like maintain healthy glucose levels. What does that even mean right? It's like you see that as a claim on some of these, what's crap what works is there anything out there that people can take along with a meal or I know there's there's crazy drugs like arquebuses and those are prescription drugs that will bind glucose and Ida I. Worry about that stuff I've tried that once and I tell you it's kind of amazing like I. I get a whole Oh, my God I, took it Arcus talk to your doctor. Is this is X. biohacking like prescribed substance. I took one in I had a pizza afterwards and Michael because it's all. That's why but it just binds up. I've heard can cause GM said I was lucky. I didn't have that for me but I'm curious what what out there on the supplemental side? Have you seen any solid data around? Yeah This is a really really interesting one. There are a couple like you've mentioned cinnamon. Chocked about vinegar there sperber in which is a I. think it's an actually drive plant. A product that is has also been studying research environment. In. These mutations? I have a glucose control supplement that includes brethren that I have. You know ultimately, I have not seen any benefit from I've taken it a few times actually I took a quite consistently for a few weeks and didn't see any change in both my post-prandial like postponed response or my averages. So having that data, I just feel I'm generally skeptical about supplements overall I. Don't I don't think it kind of goes to the press juice example where you have elite multivitamin supplements where it's like a thousand times daily value of you know this or that and. Just probably isn't delivering you thousand times improvement and it might not even be delivering single digit improvement in might have all these side effects. So I kind of tend not to take them and Now, the exceptions are vinegar for me. I have I have seen a really amazing difference when I either have like a shot of apple cider vinegar in the morning or add like a to. to foods, and so I make a lot of sauces and a lot of dressings with vinegar and use them pretty prolifically throughout my mind nutrition. What's the mechanism there? Do we have any sense of what's going on? I honestly I I really do not know what's going on there. I have got to into this one that's been I I've been mean you suffer sometimes there there are studies. That show this effectively with apple cider vinegar. And the mechanisms themselves are unclear to me right now. So I I don't get answered but I do know that totally, and for several other people on the team we've seen the same effect. So some people actually will preloaded for similar to US acres for the pizza. They'll freeload for an indulgent meal by like shooting outside vinegar and It seems to have an effect. You know it's pretty pretty fascinating. I I would love to be a fly on the wall at your office and. Tax that are happening. One thing I will say In this episode that I really appreciate you telling me off before we started hitting record. As you said, I, don't want this to be a commercial for my company and. That's always appreciate because you never know like when you have guests on, you know it's like Oh. Is Kevin have him on the show because they paid none of this was the. Because to have a conversation about glucose control, but I do WanNa get into your company because I think you are providing valuable service at the perfect time. Awesome. Tell me about levels. Yeah. So levels is it is the metabolic fitness company and we're using continuous glucose monitoring will ultimately real-time access to his own biological information to help people make better choices to set themselves up for long live with metabolic control, and specifically that means right now we're building metabolic fitness program where you can get access to continuous glucose monitors. A prescription consultation with a licensed physician, and then the level software which takes this raw data stream allows you to log your lifestyle, your diet exercise sleep stress, and then received scores that help you make better choices instead of just having this. Milligrams per deciliter unit coming at you and having to do all the research on your own. So we surface insights to help you make better choices. and. So it's interesting because you're you're dealing a bunch of. People, it's levels health dot com check out the the thing that and I, I have used it. I. Went Through your program. There's a few things I really like about one you don't have to talk to your primary care physician to get A. GM. So you guys take care of that. you see gm the second piece I like is that it's it's it's kind of something you do what? Like once a year so you wear it for A. Month and then you're done for the year or like how do you think of this? How does this fit in the People's lifestyle? Well, we of meet people where they are. So the goal is is not to you know it's two fold one. We don't push any specific dietary philosophy we touched on this earlier it's just whatever your choices are would however you choose to eat do so grounded in your debt, and then also we don't drive specific monitoring. cadence like we recommend that you do a month, learn a ton about how you're responding to where you are and set a trajectory for how to make better choices for for the future and then check in regularly we in some cases, it makes sense to do this quarterly in some cases, people like to do it for once a year. In another cases, you know something like ten or fifteen percent of people that are program, they just do it continuously. Because it's almost like giving up your cellphone. When you have the data, it's like I can't ever not have this. So like holds me accountable and it helps me understand contacts and just keeps you on track and so it's really individualized. It depends on your goals where you are and where you're heading and and we kind of make it flexible and easy for people to to do whatever makes no sense for them both financially and Yuck due to. Concerns Yeah I'm excited for you guys because people should know that this is not a inexpensive program and that's partially because the devices themselves at this point when not covered by insurance, which they wouldn't be for this use case are expensive like I. Don't I don't use you guys I use you for the one month try it allow but like you know. A in his team and they're looking at my data. So I get Jim through decks calm and You know it's not inexpensive. We're talking the hundreds of dollars a month for this type of stuff I would not continue to do. It had not had an continued to have issues where I wanna pay attention to this stuff. You know I was just a healthy person had two issues. I like my wife she doesn't do it because she's like. Well, I'm like she's perfect in that. I ve very jealous of her. Odds to all individual. Yes. Totally is. But I I'm curious like when someone signs up. Okay. So let's walk me through what they actually get because you get to see GM, you put it into your arm. You have an IOS APP or I don't know if you have android to but you have I if a of android. And then you launch it, you see your numbers but then what do you do with your food would how do you coach them? Do they interact with someone like how does that work? Yeah. So also for on the price of peace right now said, these are devices that were developed for therapy and moderation management of diabetes. So right now they're quite costly but what we're seeing is strong indications that this is going to waste is gonNA. Come down especially as companies like ourselves expand the market and allow supply and demand to do their thing and so we expect that in the near term, we're GONNA be able to get this down two hundred. Dollars a month and people will be able to really across the metabolic health spectrum. This is our goal is to get this into the mainstream in need it. The most can have access to it, and it's not a financial issue cheaper than a gym membership where goal is and then as the program rules out So initially, this e-commerce like order experience where you fill out a medical history form, we send that over to our partner physician network they review and ensure that the products right for you. Specifically what that means is we want to make sure that you shouldn't see your primary care provider I you know an event of having. Diabetes, for example, we would want to make sure that you're getting more intensive care. In another interesting I never thought about this you have people that will sign up for you. They have no clue that they have diabetes well it yet or they do know the diabetes and they they really want the levels program because it's so more so much more insightful than the standard cj Gotcha right and and so we aren't yet ready as as as we're developing very rapidly. We WanNa make sure that the software is really nailed and their platform is you know kind of buttoned up before we start bringing on therapeutic cases that we're not currently were just general wellness. We don't do I diabetes management today so. After the physician consultation, which is quite quick and effortless. The pharmacy delivers year levels kit and inside there are off to see jams, and then we have these forms covers that go over the sensor and help keep it here especially for active lifestyle and you use the level software that's your lifestyle hub. So logging, for example, very focused on making this a minimal easy elegant experience so we don't want people to have to. Enter way their food and enter macronutrients and worry. About ratios a against serving sizes. It's all about effortless and low overhead, and so you just snap a picture and interview where it's about what the food is, and that's mostly just so that you can it's for your recall. So then a few hours later after the software has analyzed your blood sugar response to that meal you'll get a score and that's a score out of ten and that'll surface and you take a look at. How that meal effective you and then also how any secondary lifestyle choices he made affected you and so an example here would be that walk. So if you chose to have a meal and they get up and take a walk, we use integrations with apple health kit to censor your activity, and then we'll surface that as well. It show that you know for example, you can see comparisons between having a personal pizza and doing nothing, and then having a personal pizza and having walk shortly thereafter, and you can see how. The differences in scoring affected you? You know you're about control and then there's all those implications of weight gain any mood fatigue, and all the downstream issues. If if you have a big blood sugar response a crash so you can you can put in context the scoring and how your body responded with how you felt and you know the qualitative experience. So really making a lightweight easy to to log interface joining with real time data and just surfacing realtime actionable insights. It's beautiful to your websites. Beautiful. The APP looks great. Thank you Joe Hossam that you're doing this? Yeah, and then we also were pushing more into sleep and exercise and stress helping people surface. You're when you're having a non exercise related blood sugar, nonmeal, related increase. We can identify if that was exercise or we can insert insights and ask you was the stress related thing where you may be in a in a call or meeting or something that was very stressful and so helping people connect actions, reactions. We're all about closed very tight feedback loops. Lot of the stuff is were in various stages of internal testing product released and. We're still in Beta mode. So we re release about four hundred rations of the APP since January, but there are some really exciting things coming down the pipeline with a specific insights framework in eventually will be able to provide proactive insights and recommend. So this morning, I got yesterday morning got off the red eye flight eventually, levels will surface say he didn't sleep at all last night typically your blood sugar is a twenty percent higher and he respond negatively to these foods maybe here more to these tend to do better with after a short night asleep. So this type of very proactive. Low cognitive load inside is gonNA. Really be a game changer. Yeah I mean this is this is without a doubt. The future right? Like it's it's it's early days. Obviously it's GonNa. Take a while to accumulate enough data to where you'll. You'll be able to automatically have these insights but like you know five years from now when the the gyms are going to be there would be way less than ninety nine dollars, right? Yeah and you'll have millions of data points and coupled with all the latest advances that we've seen in the last couple of months alone. It's going to be a beautiful thing of like. Push notification to my Apple Watch. Hey, we noticed you just had this particular meal like time to get up and go for your walk because you'll have this predicted outcome like it's going to be fantastic. Yeah. It's it's a future where we can. We can use data in our wellness choices daily for the first time. You know it's very interesting like most people. If you think about how you live your life, you have a lot of data and information you're using to make choices except for when it comes to your health and wellness, and so for the first time I think we'll be able to use. Health data more likely use financial data, and in real time to pull at your phone see where you are. You see the quote unquote deposits and withdrawals like projections into the future and and the implication here is You know you can use an expert to help you guide your plan such that you're not only are financially secure for retirement you know someday in the Future but also are going to be healthy well to enjoy it that type of like large-scale vision that we have to point people in the right direction very early so that they can plan for it make those daily choices that support it. Yeah, I. One thing we didn't cover that I feel like it's just I can't believe I miss this. I would love to come. Back. Real, quick and just talk about Weight Gain Yeah and how Glucose and insulin impacts that. So why do people put on weight when they had these big spikes? Well, the mechanism there is insulin. So insulin is a, it's an anabolic hormone meaning it is a it's a storage hormone. It tells your body to take what's available in store it and So Insulin's. Also the hormones that let's blood sugar or tells cells to bring blood sugar into the cell and use it for energy, and if the SAL is basically at its energetic capacity. So a say in a situation where you're sedentary and you have a lot of blood sugar or a lot of shuttering your blood insulin will release it'll tell, Hey, this glucose needs come out of. The bloodstream into the sal used for energy. The cell does not have high energy needs because you're you're stationary, you're not using your energy, and so the the insulin then tells the body to start producing fat in storing it. So it'll turn glucose into triglycerides and stored in the adipose tissue on the body, and so this is again, this is kind of a dose dependent. Situation. So if you have a little insulin, this is happening at a small scale. If you have a lot of insulin in a lot of sugar, this is happening at a large scale, and so the insulin environment is influenced by Glucose. Environment. So a little glucose increase will produce a little bit of insulin for most people a large glucose increase a larger spots. So it's Really, important if you're trying to maintain a low insulin environment to allow your body to not store but actually burn your fat stores and your your energy available, it's really important. You have insight into your blood sugar response. You can approximate your insulin response, people like Dr, Jason Fong the Obesity Code really dig deep on this and really elegant picture of how you body. Is is not this clean machine with an an input was now but but actually the context of your decisions and the way that your body responsible or only is what's driving your weight Allen's energy balance. So it's really important I. Think we're GONNA see some amazing impacts. Actually we've run a few trials internally called our wearable challenge, which is a partnership with Justin mayors from. Perfect Tito, kettle and fire, and we we gave a bunch people who are looking to lose a little weight. We gave them access to wellness program, and then the goal was just stay inside this blood sugar range twenty, four, seven for twenty, eight days. What was the range it was? Actually. The first one was just below one hundred and forty and the second code where we dropped down to below one hundred twenty and the average weight loss with no dietary restrictions we didn't say after these foods are the number of calories just keep your glucose and range was about nine point eight pounds. Crazy yeah for twenty or thirty. Days. Twenty wow. So, basically what that means you would think like, well, okay. Someone's watching their numbers in real time. So they're probably just they've made some mistakes in the past of when they're having that Lasagna they're like, okay. Five less bites will still keep me within the range or so they're Kinda? Is that what they're doing some extent? Yeah. Yeah there is a variety of approaches to some people when it full Kito, some people fasting some people ate the same diet that they were eating but just restrict portions in the fact is just by lowering the blood sugar response were doing that secondary effect of lowering the insulin response and in many cases especially if they're fasting or ketosis stepping in your body will go. Into a really low insulin environment, and you'll start rapidly oxidizing by fat you have on and I. Think it's much easier to do that to to access key ketosis if you are in a low insulin environment to begin with and a low glycemic environment and this is what we call metabolic flexibility. It's where by by encouraging hormonal environment where the body to easily. Switch between glucose oxidation on like sugar burning or fat oxidation, which can come from your food or it can come from your body fat. That's that's the concept of metabolic flexibility. So I think we see a lot of that in these these challenges where people are removing the Super High Kicks, system the glucose spikes that are influencing hormonal change and a big insulin response and. When you remove those the entire environment sort of slew his out and and they can more easily switch to burning their body shots. Gotcha that makes sense. That's really cool. It's what a great little challenge I hope you have more of those in the APP, yeah, we're going to do quite a bit in the space I. Think I certainly believed the implications for weight loss tremendous. Has Great. Excellent well how long the way if people do want to sign up and become a member because I know you did have a kind of a a little bit of a way to get in. Is that right? Yes. So right now we have we are currently doing invitation only bay that still. Increasing the volumes there and and so that is very much a development process for reaching the point where we're really seeing the behavior change and the the resonance with the product that we're looking for in order to go to our to our full launch and so right now. Joined the website on joined the the weightless on the website. I'd also like to get you a code. You know if you'd like to share with your listeners so that they can you sign up in preorder today if they'd like to call that sounds great. Yes. Let's do that I'll. I'll get you code and can share that people can get into the early access Beta program the output that in the show notes for people that are listening over at podcast Kevin Rose, dot com so people can find it there. Okay, Great. Yeah. We should also mention that. I always like to do this. There's no affiliation. You guys aren't paying me for this I. I'd just. I think it's an important topic to talk about excited to get more people on a healthy path. So that's good. Yes anyone that would like to contribute to development processing. We'll get you that link is going to likely be it'll be in the show notes and And, you can participate in what we're building here and help us sort of guide product features as we as we move towards full launch, which will likely be towards the holiday time. That's awesome. Josh thanks for being on the show. Is there anything else that you wanted to mention or that we're leaving out I feel like this was a great overview of all things glucose. Yeah. This has been awesome. I I really appreciate keeping tactical and helping surface insights. Ultimately, what the company is all about is is making metabolic will reverse the. Trends of metabolic dysfunction in this country and abroad, and we just want people understand that this is in your control and met about fitness is focused effort and repetition to improve your metabolic health and it's not a binary situation. You may put on a device for the first time and and be a little bit uncomfortable with what you see but you have a full. Autonomy to to make changes that that improve that well into the future. So we have to show US information. I highly recommend anyone checking at our blog at level south dot com forward slash blog we publish a ton of research and and just kind of bringing that research down to the approach level where you can see how it affects you in your daily life. So an anti back. On that, I've read. I've read some of the articles they're fantastic and I think that the other thing to just reiterate the very end of this is that a lot of people when they see my gym over the years they said, well, why do you care so much about glucose like and I think that is easy just to think, oh, it's just people that care about diabetes but in reality. You know. Obesity. So many different types of cancers linked to that outside diabetes, cognitive health and Alzheimer's in like there's just so many different processes that hang their connected here. that are much more serious than than just you know someone that is has basic diabetes you know like it do you want to do have we listed them all off our will what would we be your main ones there that people should be should know about well, you know to kind of start off like the the implications of control are kind of they vary the way from just the daily quality of life like you mentioned that the cognitive. Overload the fatigue levels that I was experiencing due to just this roller coaster ride of white sugar insulin crashes I was I was on and then yeah there are these chronic lifestyle like prediabetes type two, diabetes timeout being called type three diabetes today stroke cardiovascular. Disease. Sexual Health is one of the first Mercedes of of Metabolic Dysfunction Mood Disorders PCs, which is the number one cause of infertility in women in the United States in all the way down to like skin augmentation which which causes wrinkles and acne. This has also been proven research to be connected to glucose regulation, and so you know out into the mix weight gain An just sort of the the entire picture comes clear that this is something you. sick people. It's actually for anyone who wants to pursue health each day and make better choices influenced by their own knowledge of their bodies and so that's what levels really really doing is changing this stigma where you should only concern yourself let sugar. If you're already set rights actually quite the opposite, you concern yourself with blood sugar. So you don't come sick and all, and also the optimized performance It's it's being used by athletes right now to improve fueling choices before they go out and and try to break records. So yeah it's it's we're all using metabolism every day and and certainly a tool that will be used well into the future as people. Look to improve and optimize it rather than just wait until it's broken. Yeah. With last question. I. Promise I just keep coming up with as. At least. We can talk about this I don't have anyone to bounce ideas off oceaneering. COVID So I have noticed that for me, you mentioned that range you know going into the seventies if you can get there you know and that's oftentimes for me and I don't know if I'm GonNa get there in any given day I might be eighty somewhere. Obviously. But not not. A little bit harder. One of the things I have noticed without a doubt that gets me back to really healthy levels is when I fast if I can do a eighteen hour fast I am almost certainly in the seventies by the vast have you noticed fasting to be a great kind of way to rebalance and get back down to two decent levels? Absolutely I it's Fast thing I think is is an amazing mechanism because without the external pressure of of external food and macaroni translator throwing your body and removing that digestion, and also what those Break Down Glucose Cetera your body can start to clear out the the insulin levels in the high insulin background that you might be experiencing, and then I start to access your store glycogen. So that's your storage sugar. It'll. It'll consume that, and then it will switch over into ketosis start using your adipose tissue. That's the fat tissue on your body and that process of reducing the insulin environment and then reducing fuel storage. Levels in your in your body even without you know it's not like you have to be super active while you're just this is going to happen even if you're stationary about. Facile but most people into fast ketosis. So I think this is you know certainly it's something that people ramp into you know don't try and go to seventy two hour fast if you've never done it before. League. Brutal. An potentially dangerous to. Always, good. I always tell people if they get a lot of fasten questions obviously with starting zero and. A lot of people will say like, how do I get started I? Do this crazy fast? No. If you're going to do anything outside of like a, you know a thirteen to sixteen hour fast like baby steps number one to talk to your physician. Make sure you don't have any underlying health conditions that would prevent you from doing something like this because it can. It can be dangerous. Totally. Yeah. It's an. Also, pointed point know talking about getting US Los boss with glucose onto the seventy s I think that. Overall. We want to reduce our area under the curse word exposure to high levels, but there is actually a low bound where it's not. It's not favorable to get lower, and this is all the way back to the press juice conversation where like you know if lower is better than the lowest must be the best. Right. Because levels. That is not fun right we've also so I I like to do I'm doing more endurance training and So bonking is the the point where you run completely out of sugar if. You're in a glucose oxygenating state and you just hit a wall in your energy drops out from under you in for. Not, actually, the dangerous situation dangerous scenarios. When you know for someone who has diabetes, for example, having a blood sugar get critically low can lead to seizure in ultimately death, and so your body needs glucose we have to have it. Now the interesting thing is that your liver can produce the amount of glucose you need even when you're fasting. So you'll you'll see this especially with C. GM data as you fast. It's not like you're bludger continuously ramps down down down lower and lower. Towards zero, it's actually going to ramp down and it's GonNa sort of passing to- towards this level where livers producing it from your fat stores protein and just keeping us for rock-solid flat all day day long it's really beautiful to actually see that that system is well-controlled and you don't need to rely on dietary sources for for blood sugar But again, like it won't be near zero and no one should ever strive to get towards zero. Have you ever seen a an issue wherever in this few times? Where you it's mostly those brunch days where you kind of like go over the top. You do something Karbi because you had you know some drinks or whatever you spike up again, and then your body releases so much insulin that you actually drop into a low level yet it's like the worst feeling ever I yeah. It's like your stomach is dropping I get a little cold sweat shaky. Oh, shake isolate. Yeah. Yeah. This is exactly what I was experiencing when. I was subscribing like my fatigue level. I was having these rollercoasters like super high elevations after these big carbon meals, and then my body would just flood my system with insulin and I would experience that that reactive hypoglycemic event where my my blood sugar which plummet suddenly and I feel just as intense like just shaking not got to sit down and I would be desperate to grab either another coffee or more food you know more food anything you can do to. Get back up. Yeah exactly and once you see the it's like, Oh, I can just completely cut this out by just avoiding that thing that caused the whole rollercoaster first place right now, and so once you maintain those low control glucose levels making data driven diet decisions, you'll notice just a total absence of that reactive hypoglycemia for me in particular does not happen without the spikes the essay now that I've really started to keep it within a tighter window, it's. It's It's I. I don't ever get those unless I go crazy in I know what you know exactly at least you have the data. Exactly. We'll Josh thank you so much for being on the show. This is so much great information will get a lot of detailed show notes on the website and that codes that people what does that allow them to just jump the line and it'll be next on the Beta sign up for the for the Beta Yup. We have were moving quick speaking on delivering Beata dates. Right now, we'll be towards late. September early October but we'll get you into that early access program. You can help us develop Awesome. Will thanks Josh thanks for being on Kevin. Thank you so much. This was really exciting. I'm glad to be able to be on the show all. Right, that is it. For this episode if you enjoyed it head on over to podcast I Kevin Rose Dot com can get all the show notes there of the links to things that we talked about, and then also you can sign up for my newsletter comes out of every four to six weeks. I. Think you'll enjoy it. Thanks so much be well.

diabetes GM metabolic syndrome Dr Peter Attiyah Alzheimer Kevin Rose Dot Com Mike lyceum engineer Kevin Rose Weizman Institute apple Josh Clementi Ama instructor
117 | Worst Case Scenario: Murder on His Mind

Best Case Worst Case

27:37 min | 2 years ago

117 | Worst Case Scenario: Murder on His Mind

"All those things are at Rhys. If he serves a lifetime in prison. There's no way that this offender woke up on March the first and said, I'm going to salt and murder and strangle that child. This podcast is sponsored by ADT. This is real protection when it comes to something as important as your family safety. You deserve real protection. From eighty real protection means the nation's number one, smart home security provider is standing by in there for you. When you need them. Real protection means having a safe in smart home with everything from video doorbells Valence cameras smart locks lights carbon monoxide in smoke detectors in a system custom designed to fit your lifestyle. Real protection means helping to keep you safe on the go in the car or when your kids are at school with our eighty go app and SOS button. No matter how you define safety for you, your family or your business AT is their visit ADT dot com slash podcast to learn more about how ADT can design and install secure smart home. Just for you ADT real protection hail. It's francey. I have some really exciting news. You can now. Listen to our back. Along and new episodes of the show completely ad free on Stitcher premium in addition to our ad episodes. You can also listen to tons of other ad free. Wondering shows plus listed your premium, you'll get access to hundreds of hours of original content. Audio documentaries and exclusive bonus episodes from some of your other favorite podcasts. You can sign up now for a free month of Stitcher premium by going to Stitcher premium dot com slash wonder in using the promo code wondering. Then once you're signed up just download Stitcher app for S or Android and start listening. That's Stitcher premium dot com slash wondering in promo code wonder. Hello. And welcome to best case worst case. This is worst case scenario. I'm your host former state and federal prosecutor Francey. Hey cts. And I have a lot of my mind today. You guys may notice that I'm by myself Jim committee is on assignment he will be back next week where we will be taking up our discussion of the leaving never land revelations that have come out against Michael Jackson. So make sure that you tune in for that. Because Jim has some very special insider perspective, but this week I wanted to talk to you all about what I consider to be a worst case scenario, and that is the murder of eleven year old amber Libor net. I don't know how many of you heard about the murder of little angrily. It's a very sad case. And I think there are a couple of lessons to be learned. And I wanted to talk to you guys about today. And I wanted to get started with you a Facebook discussion at Twitter discussion. Engage. Let's talk about what you think because they're too. Things here. One is the death penalty, which I know that some of you agree with me, and some of you agree with Jim on the topic. So wanted to expound on that a little bit this time in two are there any lessons that we can take that we might be able to learn from the death of angrily Burnett to protect children. So that something like what happened to her never happens to any children that you know, or that I know so let's start at the beginning back in the beginning of March March, I actually Emberley Ornette was at home where she lived with her aunt in Alabama her aunt's in her aunt's boyfriend went shopping, leaving eleven-year-old angrily home alone. It was the middle of the day. It was light outside when they got home from shopping at seven thirty that evening. They discover that amber Lee was missing they report it immediately to the police and a manhunt ensued, everyone did what they were supposed to do to try to find angrily Burnett. Everyone except one man, and that was a neighbor, and he was related through a dating relationship to the aunt and her boyfriend in this case and police went to his home, which was near to home wherever lived, and they asked whether he had seen her and whether he could help look for her this man, who I won't name told police that he had looked for angrily in the woods behind where he lived. And then he hadn't seen her. And didn't know where she was. So police kept searching in other places for angrily. Of course by then angrily probably was already dead. Jim Clementi always knows all the statistics about children who are kidnapped and killed in how quickly such a tragedy. Befalls these children. The statistics are shocking. A great majority of them are killed in the first hour or even to after they're kidnapped. What happened to amber -ly will? I'm sure as the weeks in the months roll by as this. Case proceeds to the courts will here we'll know everything and we'll be shocked by everything happened to amber Lee, what it looks like now was this heinous neighbor targeted amber -ly. Now, what did he target her for? Well, we certainly know that she said it looks as though at least he's accused this man of killing her police in prosecutors believe they have enough evidence to charge him with capital murder now capital murder doesn't necessarily mean the death penalty. But it could it means that this murder charge can bring either life or death. Now, I've made my views on the death penalty clear, and in this case, it certainly looks as though there's a lot of blood evidence in this man's house. That will show that amber Lii was killed there. There's also rope this blue rope. It haunts me a bit Ambuhl was apparently strangled that was the cause of her death. When she was found with just one. Doc on in the woods. She had been strangled by a blue rope. This same kind of blue wrote that this man had in his trailer that man's girlfriend says that yoga's that wrote books familiar he uses that kind of row banded turns out he's into bondage. So what I suspect we're going to here is that this man who I believe is thirty three years old saw angrily playing maybe on many occasions, maybe even had dinner with her. Maybe he had meals with the family because like I said he was dating someone close to the person the aunt was dating. So he saw amber Lee any decided he wanted to take her it appears he had some kind of bondage fetish, a former girlfriend has come forward to say that we don't know if it's true or not. But I suspect we're gonna find that it is. So I think he targeted Emberley, and she was a target of opportunity. She was left alone. Now at eleven years old left alone in the middle. Of the day. While your guardian goes out shopping doesn't seem that unreasonable. Does it but it allowed angrily to be targeted? And so I suspect he went over there and either lured her out or took her. Unfortunately, I think we're going to find that amber Lee was sexually assaulted, and then murdered by this man who then dumped her body after dragging her through the woods, they found her sock, and some hair and other places that suggests that she'd been dragged dragged her through the woods and doctor and then lied to the police about it. And then he tried to get rid of at least some of the evidence by taking off his bloody genes, we can assume they were bloody with amber Lee's blood and putting them in the wash police later found them still with blood on them in the dryer. Now, what could have caused him to target Hambly, and what should have been the penalty for this. And is there a way for us to protect our children from? These kinds of predators. This is what Jim and I talk about all the time. The virtues of vigilance how do you protect your children from someone who is a true predator? And who takes them to kill them. First. Let's talk about punishment. I make no secret of the fact that I support the death penalty. I always have probably always will in. This is the kind of case why assuming the evidence stands where I think it does assuming naked prove in court. This man took in murdered angrily. I think he deserves the ultimate punishment. Why is that you'll hear from a lot of people? And I'm sure so of you are thinking right now. Well, life in prison is much worse punishment than death. I don't believe that. This just not true in prison. They get cable they get to educate themselves. He can go college. He can get degrees. He could get conjugal visits. He can get married. He can. Enjoy life. Sure he's in prison. But it's not like it's torture were not allowed to do that. So he gets to enjoy the gym and working out and socializing in reading all of these things he gets to do every minute of every day of every month that he took from this eleven year old girl that her family has to suffer every minute of every day of every month of every year that he took from them and people who think that life means life don't actually know anything about the prison system. Most offenders do not spend their entire lives in prison. They don't get what I like to call a pine box sentence because when they get old or when they get ill. They become too expensive for us the taxpayers to house, and so the parole board the people who run the prisons, they decide to just let them out. So at what point is he sold in so sick. We no longer care about every second of every minute of every hour every day of every month of every year that he took from amber league, she'll never do any of the things that he has gotten to do in the twenty more years of life that he has lived now and Mayberry well live if all he gets is life in prison. I fundamentally do not agree that that is fair. Now, I agree that there are some issues in our criminal Justice system. I don't dispute that I would never say no innocent people get prosecuted that would be absurd. Of course, it happens mistakes happen, but we have a ferry aggressive in very thorough appeal system in this country specially in death penalty cases, the paperwork, and the hearings that the prosecution has to go through just to get to a trial generally takes about two years. That's a massive. Investment in ensuring that the wheels of Justice are grinding fairly in every death penalty. Case wasn't always that way. Definitely not visit that way now. Yes. Do I feel confident this comeback will get a fair trial. Oh, I do. I absolutely do. So life in prison is not sufficient punishment, in my opinion. It may be in some of yours in. I respect your opinions. I really do. I disagree vehemently. But I respect them in my opinion. Someone who takes the life of a child like this in this kind of cold calculating way does not deserve to breathe the air the rest of us brave. And that's just the way I feel about it. I will always believe someone like him should be executed. In addition to enjoying his time in prison and possibly getting out when he is sick. You simply cannot guarantee that there won't be someone down the road with. Political clout or someone who is favor by governor a future governor of Alabama who can commute his sentence who can let him out who can pardon him all of those things are at risk if he serves a lifetime in prison in twenty years from now someone will say, oh, he's paid his debt. He's spent enough time in prison, and in many other countries twenty years is a big Senate in places like England killers rarely get that much time in prison. So who's to say twenty years from now, the mores of this country? Don't suddenly decide that twenty years for the murder of an eleven year old is more than sufficient open the gates. I don't agree with that. I don't agree that twenty years is enough time thirty years isn't enough time forty years isn't enough time this offender this murderer of child is thirty three years old. He could live to be eighty or ninety. I do not agree that simply because he's spent a certain number of years in prison or sick or is otherwise just old that he deserves to get out. So for all those reasons this is the exact kind of case, assuming the proof is what we think it is that merits the ultimate punishment. This man has taken the life of an innocent child and should pay the ultimate price for it. I just I don't see any other way. And I hope that's what happens on all follow the case. And I'll certainly update you on that. The twenty nineteen fab fit funds Springboks is on sale now to yourself with items in it such as quay, Australia, shades, and some of the most luxurious hand body and skin care products. You can imagine and so much more. It was so fun to get my box and open it up and try new products. Glam glow is one of my favorites in there were some of that in their fab fit fund is a seasonal subscription box delivered four times a year with full-size, beauty fashion home, fitness and wellness products for just forty nine ninety nine a box. They're full-sized products. Not samples every box is guaranteed to have over two hundred plus dollars in retail value. It's a fantastic value. So sign up for fab fit fund today. These boxes always sell out. Use our promo code case to get ten dollars off your first box. All you have to do is go to fab fit fun dot com to sign up and start getting the box for a life. 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Reporters I have the glasses and the sunglasses were we has a free home try on program, you can order five pairs of glasses and try them on for five days. There's no obligation to buy they ship for free. And it includes a prepaid return shipping label, just go to war reporter dot com slash best case to order your free home try on today. These glasses started ninety five dollars that include. Prescription lenses lenses include anti-glare, anti scratch coatings. They even have blue light filtering lenses now available. Just go to war report com slash best-case today and get your five free pair of glasses to try on for five days. You'll love him as much as I do. But what can we learn from this? This is such a grim case. It's so difficult to read the facts in think about amber Lee bar net. It's one of the things I think that most upsets me when I was a prosecutor in now as a former prosecutor, so many people don't wanna listen when you talk about ugly crimes and yes agreed. It's difficult. But if we don't talk about it, how can we address it? If we don't think about it. How can we protect the children in our families in our communities from this very kind of predator, and how can we serve as jurors as fair impartial? Jurors passing judgment in these kinds of cases, if we can't even think about this issue, if we can't face the fact that in our society in their few in number not as few as we would like, but that in our society, there are those who. Prey upon children who take advantage of those who cannot defend themselves. Little angrily would have been half or even less than half the size of this offender. She could not protect herself who stood up for angrily no-one, did then I hope someone does now in we all have to stand up. So that the next child does not fall prey to the same kind of predator. So what do we look for? What do we know what we know a lot about these kinds of offenders in while especially when it comes to serial killer cases, like the Golden State killer and others. We often hear the neighbors will come out and say things like, oh, you seemed like a normal guy. He was very quieter. Always seemed very nice to me or I don't know much about him. But when it comes to these kind of predators specially those who prey on children. I've found someone always news something that was a sign. Or a signal of this person prurient deviant criminal interest in children. What we have here is simply the fact that this Fender apparently was interested in bondage. Of course, not now some of you may think bondage is fine. Some of you may think it crosses the line. I don't know. But there's nothing criminal about it so long as it's between consenting adults. But there's no way that this offender woke up on March the first and said, I'm going to salt and murder and strangle that child that did not happen. There has to be something in his past. He's thirty three years old. So his parents his siblings, his cousins, his former ex girlfriends his current girlfriend, his friends if he has any some one of them or number of them have seen the signs that we? We should all know by now to look for is he watching or collecting or trafficking in child pornography. That is according to legendary FBI men, Ken lanning, the primary signal of a obsessive sexual interest in children that is the collection. The use the trafficking in child pornography is their child pornography on some of his digital devices as you have a laptop or phone as have physical collection. I think we'll find it. I think the police are looking for it. Someone knows something in his past that shows that as our social scientists friends tell me this man's deviant sexual interest in children was set at the time. He hit just about puberty or lease by the age of eighteen he thirty three that's more than a decade for people to have noticed his d. Vient sexual interest in children. Did anyone who saw it report? It did anyone express concern about it? While clearly not to amber Lee's aunt, or at least not that we know of and so- amber Lii was vulnerable to a predator that no one reported. What else did he talk to anyone about his interest in right to anyone about his interest? What was his internet search history? Like did he have violent sexual fantasies? Did he injure or hurt his prior partners? Did he ask them to call him names like daddy? Or did he ask them to role play younger than they were? These are all potential signals of a deviant potentially criminal sexual interest in children. These are things to look out for where did he hang out was his job? I haven't heard anywhere in the media. What he did for a living. Did he volunteer anywhere around? Round children. These are often classic signs of someone with an interest in children who doesn't have any. But who always wants to spend time with them is he known as that kind of person in the neighborhood kids congregate at his house. Did he possess games in toys that were age appropriate for children when he didn't have any or have any reason to have any all of these things are signs that people can look for to figure out whether or not someone that they are trusting to be around their children is actually someone who would victimize or ultimately horrifyingly murder the children in their care. We have to do a better job as a society of looking out for these people was he stocking amber -ly did anyone notice that he was constantly watching her or making excuses to be around her? Did he ever try to pick her up from school? Did he make her uncomfortable? I hope the police. Are very carefully interviewing all of amber Leigh's, friends and classmates to see whether or not this offender ever made amber Lee herself on comfortable, and we need to talk to our children about it. It is not enough to prepare ourselves. We have to protect our children. I like to say that children are their own. I best line defense against victimization. We need to teach our children that it is. Okay. For them to tell a trusted adult a parent teacher counselor aunt a coach if someone is making them feel uncomfortable. Make sure they understand that. No one has a right to make them feel uncomfortable that line of communication between you and your child is critically important. So that when if something happens to them that concerns them that makes it seem to you that they might become a target. That they are perfectly comfortable communicating that fear that potential threat to you. We have to better educate ourselves, our families our communities and our children about protecting themselves against people like the person who murdered amber league Bornet. I'd like for angrily Barnet's murder to be the last child killing that we ever see do. I think it's possible. I don't know do I think it's likely tragically. I don't because children are uniquely vulnerable. They're small people don't believe them when they tell stories that someone else is not inclined to believe it doesn't wanna believe just look at what's happening in the Michael Jackson case, how many people around the world are lining up on the side of Michael Jackson and disbelieving the two young men who've come forward to say that he series abused them when they were children. Why is that so hard for people to believe why is it so hard for people to believe that someone like this offender who killed little angrily exists? Well, evil exists. Jim hates it. When I use that term. But I I don't know. I can't think of a better one evil exists. And if we accept that we can learn to recognize it and learn to protect against it evil came for ambulance Barnett on March. The I I hope that you all are little better equipped to make sure that evil never comes for the ones that you love in hopefully, evil never comes for child ever again. But let's continue talking about this on Facebook. What do you do? How do you talk to your kids? Send me a tweet or send us a message at our best case worst case Facebook page, what are your strategies for protecting those that you love? Do you? Leave your eleven year old home alone in the daytime. Will what happened to amber Lee, Burnett change what you do should it? Or should you arm your children with the knowledge that they need to protect themselves? So that you can feel confident when you do leave that they can protect themselves that they will tell you when they feel under threat. This is a very difficult topic. I'm sure we will revisit it. In the meantime, thanks for listening to best case worst case. This is worst case scenario. Thanks for listening. Viscous worst case is an ex g production produced by Jim Clemente at empire studios, LA engineered edited by Mike thal music composed and performed by Simba Suba and hosted by one you can listen to case worst-case on your favorite listening. We are on Spotify Stitcher, apple podcasts and wherever you listen to podcasts. Knowledge is power. And when we know the facts about sexual abuse, we can better protect kids darkness to light has already trained more than one point four million adults to keep children safe from sexual abuse. I'm one of those one point four million Jim using their stewards of children prevention training, they give you and gave me the facts, tools and tips I needed to help keep the kids. I love safe and you can do the same with their stewards of children prevention training, get trained today to prevent recognize and react responsibly to child abuse in your community. Learn more about darkness delight and child sexual abuse prevention at WWW dot D, two L dot org. That's d the numeral two L dot org.

amber Lee murder Jim amber Lii Facebook ADT Emberley Ornette Worby Parker Michael Jackson Burnett prosecutor Stitcher Jim Clementi Jim committee Alabama amber Leigh
Une tasse de Dieu S#2 ep#9 surdit spirituelle

Une tasse de Dieu

13:53 min | 4 months ago

Une tasse de Dieu S#2 ep#9 surdit spirituelle

"Bushels sicily cola. Politics debris media. What if padilla devotional khatri the zero eclipse over there. Were you all talk about that. Don't want to take the this applause off of it ended better. She never you. Ju- compare elegant his own way. Kotik shibata may day but what this devotion accident or they will sue breath media com slash paw dig it of resource Really also told this issue is colorful. He's remedial usually should be sung the citizen of hope to word close future. Mosul commute was spiritual normal ever purtill bible gateway addition jizya going yesterday. Partial nudity for moscow s yours failed as police yet. You eat as you said. Wander chris keyword. There will be could could've been ask you remove clementi's want to sell on on you beverages claim over the levee and still be about a becky zone hoosiers. He's african tourism teach nobel peace cinnabon oil. We've lynnwood s you week. Which accused yankee blessed confirmed on his own. Levy don in albany as morally. We've assume love young leisure related model of what you don't view on if he was young. Mary lack audio volume buskila. He's loving depot. Usual news neighbor love yahoo to search ever defeat them off also. Jim suit all bianca. Sushi's component metaphysics from washington affiliate failed. Michael push evolution commitment to cash at his inappropriate. Easier murphy wouldn't disagree. Came away soon coaches. You felt that spiritual donahue spiritual. Paula accidentally of festival senior. Some spiritual school compiler veggies. You were basically with this. Don't achieve all of what he knew us equity sheila leading rusher mandola. Show me. She knew. Do i said walking on. Italy's antion fishy. Jewish student in for rush was gone on sean. The show this mosque ritual. If you don jr. spot your phone august general associate didn't sell the muscles could include the garden. Template did you mention muscles syllabus. German linear right by dusky. Me sweetheart here sep it senior. She's utrillo bloomberg she cla messy wheel in those soviet massino. Correal what it'll be offended. Complete this too Consumer guests on the Will be

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111 | A Life For $10

Best Case Worst Case

49:25 min | 2 years ago

111 | A Life For $10

"There's nothing like the sound of racking shotgun. Everybody knows what it sounds like. And everybody knows you're not gonna miss. She's sitting Naressenee emotional coma. Prince are not burned into the metal of the cough. This podcast is sponsored by ADT. This is real protection when it comes to something as important as your family safety. You deserve real protection. From ADT. Real protection means the nation's number one smart home security provider is standing by in there for you. When you need them. Real protection means having a safe in smart home with everything from video doorbells Valence cameras smart locks lights carbon monoxide in smoke detectors in a system custom designed to fit your lifestyle. Real protection means helping to keep you safe on the go in the car or when your kids are at school with our eighty go app and SOS button. No matter how you define safety for you, your family or your business AT is their visit ADT dot com slash podcast to learn more about how AG can design and install secure smart home. Just for you ADT real protection. Low. Welcome to best case worst, case cases, Jim Clementi. Former New York City prosecutor retired profiler in writer-producer on CBS's criminal minds with me today in the studio is high money. It's Francey Hake state and federal prosecutor, at least I was at one point Philip still have at heart, though, will specially when with you certainly in action so true with us today, we have somebody. We know very well known for his entire life. I am Tim Clementi Jim's younger brother, a former police officer in a former FBI agent in a characters Manolis for the or defense overseas and a current writer, and producer and Hollywood. Wow. So everybody listening I have to Clementi brothers in the studio. You're lucky. I don't know. Not sure that's the word. I would throw third all that. There are a lot of you. There are a lot of Clementi's us the roar. All right. So today, we're gonna talk to you to about one of your best gazes or worse cases and used to tell us start off wearing your career were you when this case came in. I was police officer with the Saint Louis metropolitan police Al how has the last time? He told us about a case when he was in Saint Louis, there are a lot of bullets involved. So it was at the beginning the middle of the end of your time there it was I was only there for about four years. So it was like three. Here's the way through that third year. I feel like in four years, Tim, actually, you know, spend the time as a police officer more like twenty girl slows the benefit of working in the highest crime neighborhood in the highest crime city in world, which by the way, he recommended I buy a house in with to wonder why that is gyms listener to maybe it's because you threw something Adam in broke his tooth so long long drive to get back at you for that. And she refines the world. So if you're three cores away through career won't you doing on the day that this case came in at the time it came in. I was just was a regular routine patrol day driving around in a police car with a young rookie cop in the car with me. So he is being trained by me. I was his training officer we wrote together on and off for over a year. We this probably maybe a couple months in. So he's still pretty green in this happens. His name was Mike. Okay. And. Is it normal for you to train was at your first rookie officer think you know, there's a what what's the show on right now. Call the rookie where Nathan Fillion plays a forty year old rookie in L A, P D And one of the greatest things about it is we're following him in two of his fellow rookies as they started LAPD with each of their training officers, and they're all very different personalities. They all experience a lot of different things is Rachel a big Nathan Fillion fan. Was this your first time as training officer? It was the first one where completely threw older guys had to fill in every once in a while in a year and a half years on the street. You're an older guy had high turnover because such a high crime city that was a really tough job for the department to keep cops on that department. We were the most highly trained on lowest paid in Missouri. So there's different classifications of police academies. So we were the top classification. So if you went through the Saint Louis metropolitan police academy, we can get on any police farm in the state of Missouri. So they would so. Starred in Saint Louis. Get your to experience go will cushier job that paid more more nicer schools, better homes, safer community. So you could have done that too. And yet, you did not Tim. I don't mean to be insulting. Well, actually, I do isn't wrong with you. Why would anybody wanna be a cop and then go and be a school crossing guards? Well, that's a good point. I mean, I we definitely know a lot of people like that. But at this point, I'm questioning your sanity after the last case with the bullets flying. I don't know why didn't leave that point. So you've met this rookie Mike in the car. You've been with him for a couple of months is like day night. What time this answers the evening shift? So my I worked on the overlaid shift. It was called saying Louis there's a normal seventy three three to eleven eleven to seven rotation of most officers in the police Armin and then in the higher crime areas. There's what's called an overlay shift where that's ten AM to six PM shift, and then you rotate six PM to two AM. So every three weeks. Do one of those two shifts was nobody replaced the two AM end of shift because if there was still a lot of crime going on we just stayed and we got over time. So it was like the the high energy platoons were the overlay shifts. And we worked the busiest time of the day ten AM to two AM. I just wanna say here that it's I think it's just incredible. When you think about you know, when most of us are sleeping safe. Instead, you know in our beds, you've got police officers out there policing all hours of the day or night. And I just wanna say thank you for you. Did when you did that? It's like, you're. So would I find out what we we were on the the evening shift that the six PM to two AM and the first thing one of the first calls, we got was a possible attempted robbery. And I looked at Mike Mike didn't really say anything weird about that. And I said the dispatcher call again, she said, yeah. Possible attempted robbery at the international market on grand avenue. And I and I thought okay, we're in route with time is up. I don't know it's probably eight or nine o'clock at the latest in evening out enough satellite. Maybe eight o'clock so is still open. This is still open with good. So we get over there. And the owner's name was Muhammad us from Egypt his wife. I think it was Naya was behind the counter at the front of the store, and they had a little boy about five years old. And they were especially the mother in the kid. We're really shaken and the father who I knew pretty well been placed. Many times used to get robbed all the time because he was in gypsy emigrant. And if he'd be easy prey, let's care. So you might remember the international market was right on grand avenue about half a block from Hartford Henry. All right. So you you responses location you've been there before this guy been robbed a number of times. But now you have a possible attempted robbery. Killington grand market is like a little store. It's a small little I thought maybe you were talking one of those big like farmers market kind of our it's it's just store he's from Egypt. So he had specialty foreign foods for for Middle Eastern, people Hispanic people was just lay of just a small market, and it was like a convenience store too. So we had coolers with beer and soda in the back, and then all the chips and all that stuff in this specialty foods have husband wife and five year old. Yeah. He's is roll up. We come up we walk in Hamad what's going on. And he said, you know, officer, Tim, I'm not even sure it was real. I don't know what what it was. And I said, well, what do you mean? What happened? He had some. Surrealness cameras in the store. So he took me in the back and showed me on the camera or on the monitor what had happened and four kids at come into the store. It looked pretty young ones in a green white striped shirt tour in like, Dr t-shirts ones in a sweatshirt that was kind of an overweight kid. They looked like they were mid teens. And they came in the store and Muhammad was in the back of the store, stocking, the cooler, so he's putting beer and soda in the coolers, and he's not paying attention. He's making a lot of noise doing this. And then he here's his wife scream Muhammad. They have gone she yells at an Arabic to him and Muhammad turns around and looks and the kid green and white shirt is standing near the door. He's holding a gun at he's pointing at Muhammad's wife and the kid must be such a terrifying. Experience a gun pointed at is especially by someone who's in his mid teens because to that young do not have a real appreciation for life and death, and they are the most dangerous people on the planet when they have guns and also. Have poor animals control. Well, what happened was Muhammad said he immediately looked saw what was going on one of the kids. Grab a six pack of beer out of a cooler and was walking towards the front door other kids grabbing chips, the one with the gun was standing closest to the door and the three that were grabbing stuff we're going towards the door Muhammed fearing that his wife or son would get shot by the kid with the gun screened. And he said, I didn't know what to do off stri. You had no idea what to do. So I pretended. I had a gun. So I reached behind my back and yelled, I will shoot you. I will kill you shoot. And I was running towards him. And what did they do any said the kid with the six pack turned Zalmay, he dropped it in. That's this crash puddle of glass beer, right here. And then Mike looks over. And there's not when he goes what's this puddle in Muhammad said, well when I screamed I will kill you kid with the gun. He just pants right there. Well, he's lucky didn't shoot him. And and his Yale. L for his wife to get down. She ducked behind the cash. Register counter huddling over low boy and Muhammed ransom. He said, I didn't know what I was going to do when I got to them. But I was reaching behind my bag saying, I will shoot you kill you. And by the time, I got to the door dust other three grab the kid the gun. They ran away when I said so that was it in and he said, yeah, I said, well, we got a good description from the video do you want us to prosecute him? He said, I think they always still one bag of chips. That's all they got other breaking veer bottles. No. And he will this is what he said was. That's why he said a possible attempted robbery. He said, I think maybe it was at toy in. That's why he was so scared because I I was only pretending I didn't have a gun and he urinated himself while he supposedly had a gun. So I think it was a toy. Right. Well, except that whether it was a tour or not it's still an attempted robbery and brandishing what appears to be a gun lurching was the crime in Virginia. And so, but Hamad wasn't sure. And he said, I don't wanna. To waste your time. I just wanted to let you know what happened. My wife was really upset. But we're fine. You know, I said all right. Well, he wants to go look for him. We'll we'll do a report he said, I don't think it was a real robbery attempt. I think they were just kids doing a prank and they got scared. That's very generous him. It was a great smashed of soup pack of beer, which is her say stealing that beer. They did it. Yeah. But he was saying that it's it's such a minor thing what they got away with what they did. He thought they came in trying to joke, and then it got out of hand. He scared them, and he felt bad that he scared them. Well, let's what about the fact that they could walk out and do it anywhere else. Well, he didn't think that was going to happen. Plus, he can't possibly know that gun was actually we were trying to look at the video videos, not clear enough for us to see if it looks if the real gonner at toy or not we can't tell calls are backing up on the radio so Muhammed's like I'm sorry to bother. You. Don't worry about it. We said, okay. So next thing we call. Back into service. It's it's disturbance call. What it gets coded as eighty four. It's just into servants not crying. So when I will report we get back in our car did the next call next. Call is a bunch of Crips hanging out on a corner on Crips are a national gang. Right. Our identity by the color blue held like a blue handkerchief for blue sweater jacket or been Denizli white t shirts with with a blue band somewhere in a pocket on their on their head whatever and bluejeans of charmers, I think and so they were out on a on a street corner. And we pulled up I drove up with them on my side of the car. I was driving turn on the spotlight on the on the eighth pillar of my car when it shines right in phases of a bunch of guys there. And when I rolled out my side, I already buddy up against the wall. Call had been for suspicious activity in possible shots. Fire. People heard bangs. They thought these kids were cornered fired a gun good syllable begins wall in one of them starts to get grave mouth off to me. He's not gonna shoot all of us. He can't. It's just one one bitch alone. Like that calls me in the end. Then he'll agai say. Yeah. He can't shoot all of us when injust then I hear over the car, and it's Mike who's six foot four he's leaning over the root for the car. And he says no, but I can. It my I was like that's a good call right there. So they hear the shotgun. They can't see him because of the spotlight, but they know Shaq on to they're gone. They all run scatter and a couple of drop guns. They were running they were gone. So we had no arrest there. We we work at about the pursue for for nothing was really no case there. He knows calls are stacking shotgun. It's when I first started as an assistant DA in Columbus. Georgia Jews gore. Prince I really need to know now on that's a great thing. But I wish I had. No, when I first started as a city, I started saying, you know, I was living by myself, probably the first time my life, and I thought about home defense. And so I was talking to the old ADA's the old southern boys who were in the office when I got there. And I said, you know, what kind of gun should I buy? And of course, I'm thinking dirty, Harry. So I want some sort of a handgun will, you know, definitely. And they said, you should definitely get a shotgun. And I said, oh, really why it's not like I can care that in my purse, and they said Wolfer home defense. There is nothing like the sound of racking shotgun everybody knows what it sounds like. And everybody knows you're not gonna miss no matter. How bad you are at aiming you shotgun you racket. And whoever's in your house is going to be out of your house, very quickly for truth. Yeah. Wouldn't disagree by the way? I did end up getting a handgun. So we know that anyone should know. So are so these guys take off your collect the guns? For probably twenty minutes or so maybe a little bit longer dealing with this call, and then we come back in service when we come back in service. We're driving right in that same area where we had our first call refinish couple blocks there and we get a call for a car accident accident with injuries. And that's a rare thing in our district is not a lot of car accidents. So I get the call. It's an RV where only block and a half away three. Roll around the corner, we come up on a car, and it's diagonally almost ninety degrees opposed to the street in its crashed into the steps from if you can pick your house sitting bag twenty feet from the road with a front porch got a sidewalk in it. It's got steps coming down to the other side. Walk the streets. Sidewalk. And this car is crashed right into those steps in. It's kind of up a little bit of angle. So it's kitty corner a little bit in. It's just crashed in there when we pull up right away. That there steamed. Good 'cause it's crashed in when the radiators dented in for destroyed when I so I get out I come right to the driver's side window, Mike walks around to the pasture signing two people in the car. The drivers slumped over in the passenger seat in the passenger is young girl about twelve years old, and she's just staring straight ahead and Mike goes to grab open the passenger door, and I said don't touch anything don't touch anything. And he said what's wrong wrong? We gotta get him out. And I said no don't touch anything when I get homicide on the horn right now, and he said homicide for what I said, this isn't a car accident. And I said just get on the radio do it. So he gets on the radio explains we need homicide here. It's not a car accident and the dispatchers confused I got a call for a car accident heart were there when I get on the radio dispatcher just get homicide here. I also need officer Lisa on what's their last name. But I need Lisa here in this Batra said for what I said, I just need Lisa here. Get her here when my sergeant immediately. Sergeant a good sergeant in. I had a great sorry. Ralph Harper he he was on top of everything. His did he showed up on every call? He could he was always on the radio making sure he was aware of anything that was happening and he gets on and we were called car twenty three thirty the two stands for the second shift. So nightshift is was two for us. Three is the third district in thirty eight or precinct is thirty eight. So in the third district thirty eight precinct and were second shift. So sorta Ralph Arberg is on the radio says twenty three thirty eight what did this turn into? I said Sergey might wanna roll by. He said two seconds away. So he pulls up a minute later by then I might get the yellow tape out tape all the way across the street to the Bank. And he said why mice because I think this was a robbery at the Bank ATM what? Confused as the dispatch he said, how did Russian travel where the car cars like this? If you back the car up, you would see there's an ATM right there. So I said I think they came from the team plus drivers slumped in the passenger seat and his brain matter blood is all over the after. That's terrific for that girl, and so's twelve year old girl is in a emotional coma. She's staring straight ahead. She has not responded. Ladies are y'all like me? And the first thing you do when you get home is rip off your bra because it's so uncomfortable. Then you haven't tried third love using millions of real women's measurements. Third love designs. It's bras with breast size and shape in mind for an impeccable fit and incredible feel that you're happy to wear all day. Like, I am you can skip the trip to the store. Find your fit in sixty seconds. Using third loves online fit finder than you can order try on at home. And you don't have to worry about those awkward bad lighting fitting room experiences. Third. Love offers double the number of sizes that most other brands offer. They have Cup sizes from a through h and bands up to forty eight fifty percent of women fall in between standard Cup sizes. Did you even know that was a thing? And so third love invented half Cup. Sizing thir- love knows there's a perfect proffer everyone. So right now, they're offering our listeners fifteen. Percent off your first order just go to third. Love dot com slash best case now to find your perfect fitting bra and to get fifteen percent off your first purchase. That's third. Love dot com slash best case for fifteen percent off today. I think we can all agree that finding the right people. Hiring can be pretty time consuming. You post a job to several online job boards. Only tons of the wrong resumes. Those job sites overwhelm you with the wrong resumes. They're not smart. That's why you should do the smart thing and go to ZipRecruiter dot com slash best case, unlike other job sites, ZipRecruiter finds qualified candidates for you. It's powerful matching technology scans thousands of resumes to identify people with the right skills education and experience, and then actively invites them to apply to your job. So you get qualified candidates fast. It's no wonder ZipRecruiter is rated number one by employers in the US this rating comes from hiring sites on trust pilot with over thous-. Reviews, and it's how we found. Our own engineer editor in right now. Our listeners can try ZipRecruiter for free at this exclusive web address ZipRecruiter dot com slash best case, if you love best case worst case show, your support to it. And ZipRecruiter by going to ZipRecruiter dot com slash B. E S T C A S E. That's ZipRecruiter dot com slash best case. Ziprecruiter, the smartest way to hire. So more sergeant polls thirty seconds later. He says when he got I said, I think it's a shooting probably from the ATM most likely robbery. So we're gonna go secure the ATM's get the cameras get whatever we can. He said. All right. Let's get the manager in here from the Bank their banks or the close for a few hours. And I knew the manager. I knew everybody in that neighbor that was the Bank Bank that and it's a might be. So I said all right. I'll get his name fill. I'll get him in here. We'll take care of that. He said all right homicides on the way, they'll be earning minute. Okay. And then he said, what do you need Lisa for? And I said, well, if you can see that the pastures twelve year old girl rocks. She's sitting there she's in emotional coma or father obvious just got shot and killed in front of her. His blood matter in his brain is sitting in her lap. And I believe it's probably most likely guy that shot her father. So I think a woman should approach her not a guy. So I don't wanna get close to what we're needs talk to where we need information. From her, but she needs to be consoled more than anything else right now. So those nice that was very very sensitive. Just you just everyone knows you have a pack of daughters. I have six daughters, and I know that girls are close to their mothers ordinarily until they get teenagers. Very true. And so Lisa I knew had a young child. And so she was a mother she was the only one on life. Tune. I knew about a female that was a mother. She was the only female, I think working shift at that time on our platoon. So she showed up what he need I explained to her. So she said all right. I'll try and help her and by this time in ambulances on scene homicide arrives there. So we sagoes over with the endless crew. And she opens the door the ambulance crews taking the father off the girls lap and Lisa's trying to get the girl out the girl was absolutely completely unresponsive in every way. And finally, Lisa said mediate, you have a car. Are you hurt in any way? She wouldn't answer. The ambulance crew is looking through the window at the girls didn't see any signs of her own blood. They figure she was. Okay. So Reese ago the girl out as soon as she lifts around the car girl. Just collapses on Lisa all the blood and reading all over her gets all over Lisa. Lisa than the girl up walked over to the ambulance. Saturday on on the tailgate of the ambulance. So that the crew treat her and keep her away from seeing the father taking out the other side of car ten I can't help but thinking with my prosecutors brain about evidence here and how and we've also interviewed Maureen O'Connell on this podcast several times did your teeth. So I can't help thinking that there's almost a conflict. Right. They're seeing you know, you've got caring for that child, which obviously has to be priority number one, or at least emotionally kind of morally it needs to be priority number one. But evidently wise and for a prospective prosecution you have to be thinking about evidence. And so moving the child could change the way the evidence is collected. Could it could take away evidence that shows things like angles in where the bullets came from? Or how close the person was when they fired into the car. So do you think about that? Or is your instinct, just let's fix the child figure everything else out. There's a hierarchy of priority on any crime scene. And the first thing is save lives and take care of the living. And then take care of the debt evidence was actually the last thing, you worry about it's something that's really important because you have to prosecute somebody eventually hopefully for the crime, but you can't think about that. So like on nine eleven when you're running into the World Trade Center or Pentagon. You're trying to get the living out of there. Get the wounded get the living than you wanna get the dead out of there if you can because those are still beings, and then you worry about okay. How do we process the evidence? So the same thing in this case, that's why told might not touch anything. I didn't want to contaminate the door handles just in case in one our fingerprints anywhere on their even though we can elimination prince later on you don't wanna smudge the the one actual legitimate print of the bad guy. If it's on that car one thing that people don't realize is that prince are not burned into the medal of the car. You know, they're they're light of prince of oil and dirt. And so forth that have ridge patterns that match the fingerprints that put him there, and they could be wiped off simply, and so you do have to be very careful about that in when we do open car doors. We try to reach to an area that doesn't look like that's where you would normally grab and things like that to try to miss where the prince are. But in an emergency situation. If somebody's life is at risk in you have to forego that and just go for saving their law. You can't leave a tour viral girl in a car with her dad father, and so get out there dealing with her when he do next so the homicide detective arrives on scene. I had called the manager of the Bank who lived close by. So he was there within minutes, Mike, and I and homicide detective walked over to the Bank manager by the front door. He let us in. And we went into the Bank. Can we explained we need to see the ATM the campus? This is in nineteen ninety three ninety four and it's ninety four and they were actually video game. Yeah. Where he's old school cameras. This was not high tech digital equipment, very low tech. So we came in explain what happened the was very distraught. The hear about that. So we said look we need to we need to look at the camera. This thing happened eight minutes ago, or whatever when the call came out. So we knew the approximate time. We went to the tape for that ATM. Actually, there was only one eighteen at that time. So went to the date for the ATM played it back to that point in time. When we saw victim drive up the ATM the thirty year old black male named Frank use a working guy. He was wearing a union windbreaker one of the few intact families that just an Admiral guy and in on the video. We can see the daughter is holding a blockbuster video tape in her have the H S take. So they just come from blockbuster. They were underway to go get some Chinese food. It was a family tradition. Every couple of weeks on his pay days. He would. Bring home a movie and some Chinese food. He had three kids and a wife, and they would all have a family movie night in Chinese food. And so when drove to the ATM he put his card in put his code in and try to get twenty dollars. Sorry him. Sorry interrupt. This was a drive through ATM versus walkup, Dr ATM's. So he drove drove up today. TM put his car in put the code in and tried to get twenty dollars out and on his first attempt. Got rejected were seeing what he's doing on the video at the same time on another screen. We're seeing his transaction history. It's same time. So he tries to twenty dollars out. Twenty dollars doesn't come out. It gets rejected in back. Then the ATM's were not these digital digital wonders that give you your balance immediately and everything else that just says reject it, you know, your your your transaction declined. Yes. And so that's all that's all he knows. He doesn't know why. So he goes to try again puts his card again. And as he puts his car in the second time. A gun comes into view in the camera, and it's pointed right. It is head. So that gone is in the back window of his car is open and the front windows open because it's warm night. The gun comes in the back window in his right at the back of his head. And so he you see him look up, and he's totally startled. And we there's no dialogue. There's no audio on the recording. And so he puts the card in hits the thing. Again, tries to get twenty transaction decline tries again and again and again to his head the snake. On the thirteenth town goes for ten dollars. Transaction was the code and again, ten dollars comes out of the ATM immediately. A hand reaches grabs that ten dollars. And then just then he's looking up at the gunman and his attention, all of a sudden turns to his right, and we see too dark shirt guys on the pastor side of the car attempting to open the daughter walls, and he sees they're trying to grab his daughter. So he just steps on the gas and bang gun. Does off by that shot him in the back of the head car comes out of frame, and we know the rest of these crashes into the steps across his we know. Fairway robbery at the ATM and attempted kidnapping probably that's horrific, but Tim, it sounds to me like you don't have faces on that video of these bad guys know, we don't have any faces on video all we have on the video at this point is is the gun. We can see the two guys in dark t shirts on the far side of gun all black males. We see the hand of the black male. That's holding the gun. That's all we know. So we know there's at least three of them can't tell age anything. There's nothing we can tell from this. It's a revolver. So we were at the crime scene. We don't find showcasing. Because the showcasing remains in the cylinder of the revolver, not adjusted like a semiautomatic handgun would object around. So all we know is what we now haven't on this video. So I tell them beg manager. Okay. Go back about ten or fifteen minutes. Let's see who was at the ATM before. Maybe we'll have a witness to what happened here. We'll end this. Point. It's how long since the murder approximately. We're talking probably fifteen to twenty minutes now since the earth, and so you're on it's a man on. This is a manhunt because you've got killers on the loose in. You know, we don't know if there are other victims are possible ridiculous coming up so right away. We we gotta go back in time with see what let's see what happened before this. So he goes back about fifteen twenty minutes, and there's a little dead spot on the video. There's nobody at the ATM nobody at the ATM all of a sudden blue suburban pulls up to the ATM and right away. My partner might turns. And looks at me little bit exasperated. An aunt my eyes are wide open. It's my wife at the what my kids I have four kids at the time or climbing over the back seat onto the front seed. And and and there they are at the ATM in my wife's getting cash out of the ATM, and I right away grabbed the phone. I feel like I'm stunned and I'm in an alternate universe. Seriously. I told you this is the Bank I Bank that I knew the manager was the closest Bank to our house. We only live about four or five blocks away from here. And so I'm dialing the phone trying to call my wife. We don't cell phones at the time. So I'm calling my home phone. It's ringing training. It's raining. It's ringing. I the videos just pause there with my wife on the screen, and I'm trying to call my wife. I can't reach her. I'm thinking the worst. Everybody's thinking the worst the managers sitting there saying what's going on. He doesn't realize it's my wife on the screen and Mike says that's Tim's wife, and he's oh my gosh. So I'm trying to call her just then the dispatcher gets on the radio and caused the homicide detective and says, hey, calls out his call sign. Call your wife immediately. I'm like tiller. It's my wife, not an unknown of like how does the dispatcher? We're trying to figure he looks at me. I'm looking at the homicide detective, but the heck's going on. And he goes this bedroom can busy here. And she says, call your wife immediately. He picks up another phone. So he. Dials. It's actually they're separated. So he calls his wife, and he's like art. What the heck's going on? She's screaming into the phone. I can hear her while mine's just ringing ringing ringing ringing ringing at home. And I kept getting the answering machine in calling back again. I'm getting no answer. His wife says you need to get to this apartment right now deal with your daughter, and he says I can't on a homicide right now. And this is my fourth homicide tonight. I'm a little busy. I you you're gonna have to deal with and she said, no, I'm not going to deal with it. She was just open your when your boyfriend and he shot a gun off in my living room. And he said what year her boyfriend was just up here playing around with a gun. He shot it into the ceiling of our living room. I chase them out of here with a broom you said, what do you mean them figuring? He she chased the daughter out to and she said no there was four of them. It was him in three of his friends. And so I said him and three friends who are they and I said go so he races back to his house bullet in. The ceiling. Talks daughter gets a description of guys he comes back to homicide scene house, two blocks away from the crime scene. He comes back. I meet him on the crime scene. Now, my wife is still in limbo. I don't know where she is his wife has just chased a gunman out of their living room. Fifteen year old sixteen year old boys that were in. There comes back on the scene. And he says I took care of that problem will I'm gonna go find the kid later on elsewhere that away. Nobody was hurt. My wife was just upset and I said, well, it's kinda understandable. And then Lisa comes walking over to us. And he said the Lisa did we get a description from the girl was her anymore that she could give us Lisa said not much, but I got a little bit. I got something on the shooter. And she said, okay. Do you want me to put it out? And I said, well, why don't you let Mike put it out? He needs the radio time. So Mike grabs Renault. No pad start gets on the radio dispatch. I wanna put it out of description shooters. He goes the shooter has a green white looks at me. And I said. What's wrong? He said green and white striped t shirt on black males. I sent Muhammad and while and the homicide detective goes through the house. Muhammad goes that's my daughter's boyfriend, that's pootie. I said what he goes. Those are the kids that were my daughter. I said, well, those are the kids have tried to rob the the grocery store, and he said what he what grocery store, and I it was coded. It wasn't a robbery they thought it was the owner thought it was a toy gun. He didn't wanna do report. He's way. What are you talking about because homicide detective does know about our prior call. I don't know what happened in his house with his wife and the kids we put relative to other. It's all the same kids. They attended the rally. Muhammad, they left. Muhammad store. They came around the corner ended up behind by the ATM saw the guy pull up with at the ATM. So while they were at the store trying to rob the gifts in guy, your wife was at the ATM that they then go to. Yes. Wow. And then we we go we play a little bit more on the tape, and my wife drives away. So I assumed she survived the ATM encounter. At least. I still don't know where she is the next person just a minute or two after my wife, a guy in a brand spanking new really nice Ford pickup truck pulls up to the ATM. And he's on camera puts his card in and he's withdrawing four hundred dollars from his account. There are thirteen thousand dollars change in his account while he's getting his money out of the ATM as he's waiting for it to come out. Something catches his eye on his left side view mirror. He's looking at the ATM screen. Something catches as I left side view mirror. He looks at that looks startled looks to the right side view mirror. Looks back to the left side view mirror and something has his attention. All of a sudden he lays down in the Seton disappears out of frame for a second comes back up. He's only using his left hand to get the money and his card out of the ATM is no. No longer using his right hand. He's looking around frantically. He grabs the money grabs the car looks in drives off quickly. I'm like, he's got a gun. He got a gun out of the glove compartment. That's why disappeared out of frame. He's holding a gun in his right hand. He's afraid is about the rob. He saw the shooter's. So I call this guy. I have is whole counterfeit information everything he lives in Saint Louis county doesn't live in the city. So he's about ten or fifteen minutes away. I call them and say officer implemented with the Saint Louis police, Marvin there was a problem with your transaction at the Bank is insured with your account, you need to get back your right away to get the straightened out at the Bank of with the manager right now, there's been several issues with the ATM somebody may have gotten into your count. So he said, okay, come now. Can I come from all you have to come right now? So he drives back to the Bank when he gets there. I pull him aside some down room alone. I said, look, I know you had a gun. I don't care. Nobody. Else needs to know you had a gun. Okay. That's not what this is about. Who who said I had a gun. It didn't happen. Don't worry about it. I don't care about that. I'm not here to go. After you. I'm here. Go after the guys. And he said, I don't wanna even talk about this. And I said the guy that was at the ATM right after you was murdered by somebody. I think you saw he said what I said. Yeah. I think there was three or four kids by the ATM. They rob the next customer shot him in the head and he died in his twelve year old daughters. Laugh, I said I need to know what you saw. And he said all I can tell you is. I was sitting there and I saw movement right behind my bumper. And I saw green and white striped shirt look like a black kid. I couldn't see their faces. They said I looked to the right and I saw two or three or four more kids all wear dark. You really hard to see him on that side. And it was like they were crawling up to me. So I got my gun. I held it in my lap. He said, I'll tell you officer. If they'd just even approach me, I probably would have shot them. All he said. I was terrified. I said. Well, I could see that you were terrified on the video. But Jim they're crawling along. They're preying on, Freddie. Look, obviously. So that so you're you got all this stuff going on all the same time. We luckily got a great sergeant. He's like what you need what you need. So I turned to the homicide detective I said who's your daughter's boyfriend, and it was like kooky or some nickname like that. But said she know where he lives a few blocks away, June Yata, she thinks he stays there said what are we waiting for? So sort Harper said bringing the cavalry whoever's available we race down got to this house. He's not their mother or aunt or somebody was there. She said he went over to somebody else's house. So we all race over there. Fifteen cop cars lights. Inspire shotguns, everybody. We have a murderer on the loose right now. We're finding these kids. So we get to the second place. We come rushing in kick in the door. They're in there before kids while just sitting there joking. Laughing. They got a bag of onion rhines or something onion rings or something that they stole from a HAMAs, and they have ten dollars that they went and spent in bought a bunch of sodas or something the ten dollars. They murdered the guy, and they're all sitting there and income twenty cops shotguns in their faces. Where's the gun on all the kids are like kooky got the gun in the other three pointed to him and he's sitting on the gun. It's underneath them. Is he still wearing agreed in white striped shirt, or we're in the green white striped shirt blood on his arm from sitting around with blood on eating in rings? And they're sitting there, and they're joking until of course, the shotgun muzzles are in their faces. And we get them all and I get them up cuffing all and I said three you guys are going to prison for the rest of your life. One of you is getting the death penalty which one and they all pointed Kim green white structure, he shot him weeding new, right? We do. Anything he shot him. And I said you got his money. He only had nineteen dollars in his Bank account Chris's. Check hadn't cleared couldn't even get twenty dollars. I took the guy's almost last ten dollars. Why did you shoot him? He didn't have the shoe of got his money. And you said because he wouldn't let us take the bitch said that was his twelve year old daughter. He said, yeah. But she was fine team friend who it goes that was why was my worst case over because it was not only that innocent guy killed girl is traumatized other victims. But that there was a didn't care at all. There was no human empathy was no humanitarian will go to school way for over dude. The Pulu slug out of the ceiling Majid outside detective got evidence response team run his house pull that bullet out. The got the bullet out of the victim's head, and they got the gun with the other. Rounds in it and the shell casings that matched to bullets that were fired. So I seem they rod prosecuted they were all adjudicated as adults and charges adults, and it was a homicide first degree because basically attempted kidnapping robbery. So you have a felony murder. They're not a lotta easy ways to get out of that one known defense attorneys can get out and did the store owner also testifying use the video from that as a precursor chrome, what a horrible what a horrible case, Tim, and I feel so terribly for that little twelve year old girl who grew up probably obviously had a hard time in life for variety of reasons. Missing her dad and her seizures it trauma of seeing that happen right next to her. I can't imagine was easy. If she ever did get over it near the shooter was the fifteen year old and the other kids were I think, we're sixteen seventeen and you know, really? Really sad thing is that was nineteen ninety four in October twenty eighteen I was back in Saint Louis for the unfortunate. Burial of sergeant Ralph harbor the great sergeant I worked for when I was a comeback. They're killing on duty. Now he was killed. He retired after thirty three years on a job from the most legacy family in the Saint Louis police for him and his three brothers were cops in his father was a calm. So the five Harper's were Cox, a total of two hundred years of service on the Saint Louis. Police department in his family alone so row retires after thirty three years. He's sixty six years old with his wife married for forty some years. They're driving in the same neighborhood over by our growth park in going to babysit their grand niece and grand nesic nephew. And they pulled up outside the house. Ralph's wife got out walked up into the house and then row, Saul parking space, but three or four. Cars down Senate. Honey, I'm just gonna park the car. I'll be right in with the groceries. So he pulls up into the parking space parallel parks in there gets out with two bags of groceries car pulls up screeches to a stop right beside him. Young black male gets out with a gun in his hand shoots. Ralph operating the chest. Ralph drops onto the street groceries. Follow replace he pulls his gun, and he gets off five rounds card takes off can jumps in. They're gone. Ralph calls nine one one explains who he is wary is wounded robbery attempt. I think I think I wounded the shooter they took off in this direction gave a physical description clothing, description, car description, everything direction travel mmediately officer, Nina vague, call comes out, which is the cavalry. Everyone comes they all get there. And this is seven thirty in the morning on like a Wednesday and just really unusual time for a crime like this to happen. But it's because of the drug problem now keeping. Timelines outta whack so kids that are using you know, they're using opiates and everything else. They're not sleeping normal hours of the crime times of spread out all over the twenty four hour clock now so Ralph is transported by police officers to the hospital with an escort of about fifty police cars rushing into the hospital. They take him to the the closest trauma center. They're bringing him into the emergency room in the emergency room is the kid with a gunshot wound his hand in the exact clothing that Ralph I just described so they immediately take him down and then outside in the parking lot is the car that Ralph described and so that car takes off when all the cops rollout. Now, there's a pursuit chase this car. It crashes several blocks away into a building and that kids rest that he's sixteen years old shooter. I think is sixteen years old actually may one of them might have been fifteen. So it's basically the same circumstance from twenty four years prior when you know, a good. Guy is killed for no reason at all by kid with no conscience, and no empathy and no human emotion in any way. Fifteen sixteen years old just kill the guy because you wanna take what he has. Who knows they were after his car, the groceries his wallet, whatever. But a senseless murder aren't will. Tell me what happened when you finally got in touch with your wife on that fateful day twenty four years earlier. So when I Finally I kept calling all night while we were running around. I finally get a hold of my wife. Karen? And one of the kids had croup was sick. And so she wanted to go to the store and get some some Vicks vapor. Rub the vaporizer and gets a medicine for her. So she had to go to the ATM get some cash, and then she drove down and the first place. She went to didn't have any. So she was driving from grocery store to grocery store looking for a twenty four hour pharmacy. Try and get these things with the kid and three other kids in the car. So she's just having a typical miserable night when I call. Hold on screaming at her. What the hell are you doing going to the ATM? You know, whatever time in the night, it was and she was like I had to she didn't know what was going on. And I explained ten minutes after you were there was a guy shot and killed. I will thank you so much for for that story. Like this. And it's while I mean, that's insane. What happened that night? And, you know, thank God, the Saint Louis had an has amazing police officers and in every major city across country does that risk their lives on. I'm so sorry for the loss of that citizen, and for loss of your mazing sergeant it's really really horrible. Thank you for telling us that story until next time. Thank you for listening. Best case worst. This case worst case is an ex g production produced by Jim Clemente at empire studios, LA engineered edited by Mike music composed and performed by Simba Sumberg and hosted by wonder you can listen to best case worst case on your favorite listening. We are on Spotify Stitcher, apple podcasts and wherever you listen to podcasts. Knowledge is power. And when we know the facts about sexual abuse, we can better protect kids darkness to light has already trained more than one point four million adults to keep children safe from sexual abuse. I'm one of those one point four million Jim using their stewards of children prevention training, they give you and gave me the facts, tools and tips I needed to help keep the kids. I love safe and you can do the same with their stewards of children prevention training, get trained today to prevent recognize and react responsibly to child abuse in your community. Learn more about darkness delight and child sexual abuse prevention at WWW dot D, two L dot org. That's de the numeral two L dot org.

attempted robbery Mike Mike officer Tim Clementi Jim Bank Lisa I Muhammad Saint Louis robbery Ralph Harper Muhammed ransom ADT Saint Louis sergeant Ralph Hamad Missouri
Re-Release!  LNE.news - BoxerBlu & Bram - S1E75 - This Church Will Remain Open, Cicadas are Coming Back, A 1080!

Little News Ears

14:57 min | Last month

Re-Release! LNE.news - BoxerBlu & Bram - S1E75 - This Church Will Remain Open, Cicadas are Coming Back, A 1080!

"You i am names brand. And i'm jake brims dad but some people call me bucks or brew and here's the news to the heavens. Oh sorry this may dad's new way of going boxer wings eagle rock new jersey today. He can't we. Yes that a good thing up up to the heavens. that's our new thing. Fragment choose twenty six two thousand twenty and it is selling right day. That's right sally. Ride is a famous astronauts. He's the first american astronaut Took to go and space but then the others before. oh yes. there were actually two soviets. Lets us soviet own. Soviet is a russian under a different government back. Then oh okay. So we'll say that Valentina tereshkova and spent lana savvy skyro- were the first woman in space again. Why are you celebrating. Russia you celebrating communism I'm just. I'm just sitting. In fact boys girls program does not promote any ideology. We used to have the facts out. Oh that's cool. It's also world dracula day by the way it's weird weather even say who. Let's go to church. I think you know what a churches bram. Yes building with the steeple on top people go and they dress there and they stare at a man or woman talking a lot more than that bram. A church is a house of worship worship. What does that mean. Well to worship means means to pray. I know we've had that word before a long time ago. Oh what do you believe that. let's talk about that program. Basically in church people go and they pray to god sing hymns to god what bramhall. Don't you know these things. Him is as a kind of song. That's related to the bible into church. Oh okay so. Why are we talking about this well. There's a big controversy controversy. Yes too many states across the united states are seeing cannot go to church the church. Why well of course because corona virus all those people together you know over this past weekend all many places in the us. Been lots of people together. I'm a little scared. Yes i understand that so. So what's the story. We'll basically churches her are defying. The government defy means not listening. You mean when. Ps did i put them in. Yes that's defying so some churches all across the. Us are doing this. They're they're having service on sunday and they're you know they're taking a chance in the really breaking the law. Oh my gosh. isn't it dangerous. Yes so in palermo. California for example recently hundred eight people were exposed to corona virus. The probably going to get six months people. Oh my gosh. There's a very outspoken. A pastor in new jersey's is charles clarke junior and he's been calling governor murphy tyrant what the tyrant tyrants like a cruel mean dictator. Somebody who rules the country with an iron fist governor murphy say. He's he's compared new jersey to nazi. Germany nazi germany. We've talked about that a long time ago. With adolf hitler rate us his new jersey like nazi. Germany will charles clarke junior douche. What's that sound. I don't know how you hear that sound. Since we're way up skies that's keta oh keys weren't in new jersey Of the arts. That's also where that's boys. You don't know this every seventeen years this bug. His flying insect comes out of the ground. Seventeen years why while scientists don't know i'm talking about a cato. By the way they think. Maybe it's because the cycle is between thirteen to seventeen years and it's so they stay away from the predators aquinas. Oh so all these male cicadas. They're the ones who make that sound. By the way they start flying they start and the females start laying eggs everywhere. Oh poisonous no. Actually animals love eating. Cicadas raccoons turtles birds. They all eat. Cicadas and skaters can't really do very much. Oh so succeed was really bad except for the sound will actually their eggs have kind of luck basically. It's like a poison because they lay eggs everywhere and the eggs actually can kill trees former. You wanna plant some trees. Don't do it youtube before the cicadas came out. Oh gosh okay well. That was a loud music of bram. That's not the point. Did you see what that boy did. You mean spinning a random escape like three times. Exactly that was pretty amazing The boy's name his name by the way but maybe it's e- curry g. u. k. h. u. r. y. california and. He also lived in brazil for a while. He did a ten eighty ten eighty. What's that well when you turn around in a circle one time. That's three hundred and sixty. Oh why let's not get into that. Three hundred and sixty. He did it three times right so three. Sixty three sixty three sixty three times. Three sixty is ten eighty. And it's really cool. Yes it actually hates better than the skateboard champion ever did right. Oh you mean in the game. Seven twenty or skate or die. What are you talking about no. I'm taking the real skater. Tony hawk oh that's right. Yes it's it's pretty amazing. I had to say. I cried when i saw that rock and roll sound. You can't hear it but when you really see quiet. It's amazing that the crowd was just flabbergasted. Oh yes yes. it's an easy. How did he do that. Wal brands very simple he. He practiced ever since he was four years old. My his dad has been really helping him get better and better skating and so you know he worked really really hard look what he accomplished accomplished what he did. Oh well dan. I'm going to read some names and you tell me if you know any of them. Okay okay brim. By the way we've almost land. Okay so muzy oh clementi hummel over john not is love do sake. Yes jews in full ludvig. Beat overtone. yeah. I know him bop bop. Bop bop bop. Aw yes soon. He's two hundred and fifty breath things coming up by the way. His birthday is unknown but it was in seventeen seventy. Oh that's interesting. With what why. I read those names. E pianist name appeanas. what's pianist. Oh the piano. I misheard yes. So pianist name joe. What a beautiful name. it comes on my own. John bubbles love that yes and so he's a pianist who plays beethoven master playing beethoven's music but he's playing those other teams. I mentioned there were contemporaries. What's to contemporary contemporary. Somebody who lived around the same time. Some people were like friends with composers to and so they're not in the canon the canon like bom. No dad cannon. Is that group of things like everybody moves beethoven. Everybody knows moats are. Everyone knows that beethoven was deaf. For example oh yes yes That makes it but there's other composers. Nobody knows their names. Well that nobody just not known so the idea that mr busey has for us to celebrate beethoven through through other artists we learn about them and you can see similarities and differences or compares bittu oven and all this composers to the himalayans. We've been there right. Nepal walked around was really gold. Yes yes i do remember. That was kind of a gamble and clinton weird game. Red-state green greenstock yes anyway. Fm bubbles e. he what he's doing to the himalayas. because it's not about one himalayan. It's all about all of them. Maybe beethoven is. He's like that the top dog. Let's say but he wouldn't be there with all of his contemporaries. Oh that's a nice metaphor. Oh yes yes. Douche got story about like kids being awesome weird about the skateboarding rate. Pretty amazing. now. Tell you about biking. Oh i heard about us in india right. Oh so she. She's fifteen years old. Geo tv kumari and she. Her dad is a migrant worker. What's a migrant worker. Oh a migrant workers somebody who moves from place to place is not in the same spot all the time because of covid nineteen india. There's been a big lockdown. Just like an america pretty much but migrant workers really hurt because no one is moving around like knowing his needs rickshaw drivers and took two drivers in all kinds of things like that. Oh so so. What happened with his girl. Yes so her. Father was injured so they took all of their savings. They bought a twenty dollar purple bike and they all the way from the outskirts of new delhi to their village about seven hundred miles away. This sounds like a hollywood movie bram. Is it real. Yes is totally real. It's pretty amazing. yes yes it does. Yeah so it's also interesting about know. Her father's in the lowest one of the lowest castes in india cast the cast bram well in america. We have a class system. But it's it's kind of very great. You could be a lou. Class person would not have any money education and you could get a lot of money you could get for education. You know you go up to middle class. You know but it's kind of vague all over india. Not like that at all right. It's a lot stricter writers different levels born into. Yeah i hear that it's changing but but that's kind of the idea. Well we had almost kind of a crash landing. We're walking around okay kind of secretly but luckily everyone's busy with sunshine and looking at the greet sky view right september eleventh. There's a lot of statute around here and things like that. All about that does New jersey doesn't seem like nazi germany. Here oh i agree my dad and i go on this trail. Okay walk-in oh what's that. Oh that's really cool with girls. There's this like a shelter. Somebody new is sticks a little shelter and it was really fun to play. Let's go and say wait a minute. This reminds me something my brother. My brother rupert sent him a letter. This is to be continued Thanks for listening. Little news ears by the way chickens on facebook on twitter. We we talk a lot on twitter and instagram to. That's right graham to okay. Let me think about about riverdell. What should i right. Okay bye bye everybody bye. Do you want this week's news. Good a little news. Ears dot com. Don't forget to check out our videos on youtube dot com and our teacher lesson plans and more a little news years dot com. May your sweetness shot and your colors. Glow breath sources for today's broadcast. Include the daily beast fox news and the new york times however by once again we're hearing about brown had boxer blue and there hiking around vying. What's the big deal. Why can't we just an art caves. i today is tuesday. May twenty six th two thousand twenty but zoo sania. It's one sixty six be off and the quiz begins now. West and number one. What is that high risk is it. Hey it rhymes with fire hydrogen. That's all you need to know or is it a very bad leader. Who controls everything or is it a person who is tired like the answer is a very bad leader. Who controls everything. The number two jimmy. Why do we say that. We curry nail. The ten eighty isn't a three sixty. Three sixty three sixty equals ten. Eighty three sixty times three equals ten eighty four zizi and the answer is resident number. Three which animal likes eating sick. A turtle visit firefly visit and the cancer is a turtle west. And i'm four jimmy. What is strange about the way joel. Effingham bubbles eight is celebrating. Beethoven's to interns fiftieth birthday isn't it. Hey he will dress up exactly like visit. Biki will play beethoven's music twenty four hours straight whereas the he will play any. Beethoven music can answer is he won't play any beethoven number five. How far did you see. Kumari ride with her father on her. By is it takes seven miles be seventy miles or is it. See seven hundred and the answer. Jimmy is seven hundred miles. Well i wanna talk about a little bit about that comment about governor murphy and new jersey and it'd being like nazi germany deere new jersey. That could more on the water goodbye.

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