20 Episode results for "Civil Division"

Avast Ends Access of User Data for Subsidiary Jumpshot - DTH

Daily Tech Headlines

05:38 min | 1 year ago

Avast Ends Access of User Data for Subsidiary Jumpshot - DTH

"These are the daily Tech Headlines for Thursday January thirtieth twenty twenty. I'm rich drop Alina. The Antivirus Virus Company avast announced that its subsidiary jump shot would no longer have access to user data from a vast products and will eventually be shutdown jump shot previously sold this package anonymously information to enterprises and marketers and investigation from motherboard and PC MAG earlier this week found that information was tied to a unique device. ID although that was anonymous from those clients bit Muggy TV will launch on snapchat on February. First the new offering will have its own snapchat show page that users can subscribe Graham to with new episodes showing up on the discover page content will feature the Avatar of users as the protagonist and the last person they interacted with on Snapchat as a Co.. Oh Star user. avatars are silent while friends will be voiced shows are designed to be PG thirteen raided with violence and bleeped out swearing. Content from the first season was written undirected by bit Moji Co founder and CEO. Bob Blackstock snap says that seventy percent of its two hundred. Ten million daily active users have created a bit Moji Avatar Ktar jody haunt assistant attorney general for the US Justice Department Civil Division announced. Its first ever enforcement. Actions against two groups that facilitated hundreds of millions of Robo calls per month. The Justice Department is seeking court approval to stop the organizations from operating which include to Arizona based companies toll-free deals dot com. Sap sipe retail and their owner operators plus New York defendants global voice calm global telecommunications service cat telecom and they're owner operator the DOJ says says the companies serve gateways for far solent call operators and get paid for facilitating the calls and passing them into the regular US telecommunications network using digital voice over Ip hype technology a jury in the US District Court for the Central District of California ruled that apple and broadcom infringed on WIFI patents from the California when you institute of Technology Ordering Total of one point one billion dollars in damages. The suit was filed in two thousand sixteen with Caltech naming iphones ipads ipods. Apple watches his and MAC computers as devices including infringing broadcom components. The damages break down to eight hundred thirty seven point. Eight million dollars from apple and two hundred seventy seventy point two million dollars from broadcom. According to a European Commission proposal seen by Reuters the European Union is considering the creation of a quote single single European data space a genuine single market for data. The proposal calls for new rules affecting cross-border data use dead interoperability and data standards for industry verticals like manufacturing the auto industry healthcare financial services agriculture and energy as well as more open access to geospatial environmental and meteorological era logical data across companies it also considers new rules to prevent large online platforms from unilaterally imposing conditions to for access and use of data pinterest announced a new civic participation policy which states that platform will remove any content from users post or adds that mislead people about where when or how to vote the policy will also crackdown on misinformation about the US census with any hoaxes reported to the US Census Bureau to help the bunk them. Sources tell the information that upon acquiring these start-up x. nor ai apple decided to terminate a contract it had with the US Department of Defense's Project Maven Project Project maven known as the Algorithm Warfare Cross function team was launched in two thousand seventeen to use artificial intelligence for autonomous object recognition on drone video footage cloud services company Microsoft reported revenue up fourteen percent on the year net income up thirty percent of the year in earnings per share of one dollar and fifty incense being the expectations from analysts. One dollar and thirty two cents per share digging down office three sixty five commercial. Revenue grew twenty seven percent as your cloud. Revenue grew sixty two percent office consumer products and cloud services grew by nineteen percent and dynamics through sixty five grew forty two percent with Lincoln revenue growing twenty four percent in non cloud earnings surface revenue grew in the single digits and xbox digital products fell eleven percent on the year Samsung announced its operating the profit for q four decreased thirty percent of the year to seven point one six trillion won. That's roughly six billion dollars. US overall for twenty nineteen operating profit if it was down fifty two percent compared to twenty eighteen and the lowest since two thousand fifteen much of the decline was due to the slowing demand for memory with Samson's chip division profit down fifty seven percent percent to three point four five trillion profits. were up however for Samsung's mobile division to two point five two trillion won overall revenue increased in Q.. For one percent to fifty nine point eight eight trillion and finally nintendo announced it had its strongest switch sales in Q.. Three with ten point. Eight one million units sold but the end of two thousand nine hundred fifty two point. Four eight million switch units had been sold making ten does third bestselling council of all time surpassing the Super Nintendo so which sales increased fifteen percent of the year with antenna setting the launch of these switch light and the launch of the Council in China for the growth. Remember for more discussion of the Tech News of the day. Subscribe take new show at daily tech new show DOT COM and remember to Rick in Review Daily Tech Headlines of forever. You get your podcast thanks. Listen we'll talk to you next time and from all of us here at take headlines Remember have a super sparkly day.

US broadcom apple Justice Department Samsung Snapchat US Justice Department Civil Di US District Court US Census Bureau California US Department of Defense Alina Moji Co Council Tech News apple Bob Blackstock
The CRUSADE Channel Newscast For December 23rd 2020

CRUSADE Channel Previews

10:01 min | Last month

The CRUSADE Channel Newscast For December 23rd 2020

"Smell that just say. The name stake amounts begin to water while chops are being licked. Good no one. Loves steak more than me folks and address stumbling upon a stake cookie secret. I spent the last year perfecting my signature. King dudes katie anna steak rob and cookie system. My unique blend peppers herbs spices. With just the right amount of salt makes the perfect stake rub. You'll get tender juicy never overcooked and season to perfection stakes. The king dudes qena steak rub takes all the guesswork out of steak seasoning and cooking times. Try a bag of my arcadian steak rub today and i guarantee you the best steak dinner you ever had right now. You buy my rub separately or as part of my cooking with the king. Dude gourmet seasoning and cooking gifts. It includes a bag of my poor beast in but rub gourmet kitchen. Cutting board from chlor tables and three of my el-rais do corona cigars daughter gives set or any of my rob's carte go to mike church dot com forward slash rubs or call us at eight four four five two seven eight seven two three the best dinner you ever had a awaits crusade channel news news. You can trust because the truth can be trusted from the crusade channel news desk. Here's stacy cohen. Good morning crusaders. Welcome to win. Stay december twenty third twenty twenty. I'm stacey cohan reporting from the crusade channel news desk the cohen ranch in winkelmann arizona. This report is brought to you by founding father films publishing featuring rare essential works like humility apart and life of washington put back into print and edited by mike church available exclusively at my church dot com slash books. Here's what to listen for this hour. President trump called the covert relief. Package a disgrace and he called for increasing direct payments to americans. But he didn't say he would veto the bill. President trump pardons in new group of people and dr burks has had enough to taking her scarf and going home. President trump is demanding lawmakers. Raise the second round of stimulus checks to two thousand dollars per person from six hundred. I'm asking congress to amend this bill and increase the ridiculously low six hundred dollars to two thousand or four thousand for a couple of trump said in a video that was posted to twitter. Tuesday night while the president didn't outright threaten a veto of the nine hundred billion dollar covid relief. Bill he did call it an unsuitable disgrace. But if you're one of the people eligible for stimulus check. Don't get your hopes up. The legislation passed both houses of congress with veto proof. Majorities meaning that trump is really powerless to raise direct payments from six hundred dollars. Still though the top democrats in congress house speaker nancy pelosi and senate minority leader chuck schumer said they would support bigger checks to people. President trump tuesday issued a flurry of pardons and commutations to a slew of controversial figures with ties to his administration in a move that further cements his legacy of exercising his sweeping powers to benefit his political allies among the list of individuals. Pardoned tuesday or george. Popadopoulos of former trump campaign aide indicted by special counsel robert. Muller duncan hunter and chris collins both former republican congressman convicted of financial crimes and four former blackwater worldwide military contractors. That were responsible for the shooting deaths of fourteen iraqis into thousand seven in total. The president issued fifteen pardons and commuted part or all of the sentences of five individuals. The justice department accused walmart. Tuesday of contributing to the deadly opioid epidemic by filling thousands of invalid prescriptions and failing to report suspicious orders of and other drugs placed by its pharmacies in it civil complaint Federal authorities allege hundreds of thousands of violations of the controlled substance act and are seeking billions of dollars in penalties as one of the largest pharmacy chains in wholesale drug distributors in the country. Walmart has the responsibility and the means to help. Prevent the diversion of prescription opioids according to geoffrey both art clark. The acting chief of justice's civil division. Instead for years it did the opposite this unlawful. Conduct contributed to the epidemic of opioid abuse throughout the united states timothy shea. Who is the acting head of the drug enforcement administration said the retail giant's pharmacies routinely filled illegitimate prescriptions anticipating. The lawsuit walmart filed a legal action of its own in october. Claiming that justice officials were more focused on chasing headlines than fixing the opioid crisis. Coming up are cena. the day. He was a serious man. He was humble but known to all the poor of krakow forest kindness his goods and his money. We're always at their disposal and time again. They took advantage of them quota. The day disorder in society is the result of disorder in the family. Saint angela murray itchy. You're listening to crusade channel news. The home book series has become an immediate success helping tens of thousands of american housewives turn their homes from places to live two places to lovingly raise nurture family kerry grass and the other authors opened up a world of beauty charm and old fashioned. Homemaking using things you already keep around the home. Our theology of home gift set contains theology of home volume one and two and the g of home daily planner and essential place to plan. And keep your own personal theology of home order your theology of home planner at my church. Dot com forward slash. Home custom. Gift wrapping is available but time is running out till christmas. So please order as soon as possible mike church dot com forward slash home or call us at eight four four five to seven eighty seven. Twenty-three are saying the is saint. John of canty. John was a country lad. Who made good in the big city. In the big university of krakow poland after brilliant studies he was ordained a priest and he became a professor of theology the inevitable position which saints encountered led to his being ousted by rivals and he was sent to be a parish priest and extremely humble man. He did his best but his best was not to the liking of his parishioners besides he was afraid of the responsibilities of his position but in the end he won is people's hearts after some time he returned to krakow. He taught scripture for the remainder of his life. John was a serious man and he was humble but known to all the poor of krakow forest kindness. His goods and his money were always at their disposal and time again. They took advantage of him. He he kept only the money and clothes absolutely needed to support himself. He slept very little ate sparingly and he took no meat he made a pilgrimage. Jerusalem hoping to be martyred by the turks later. John made four subsequent pilgrimages to rome carrying his luggage on his back when he was worn to look after his health he was quick to point out that for all their austerity. The fathers the desert live remarkably long lives president trump's former lawyer. Michael cohen filed a lawsuit. Monday arguing that. He deserves early release from his home confinement under sentencing reform. That was signed by the president under the first step at cohen says he could be eligible for release a matter of weeks or months based on credit for good behavior and hundreds of hours of work in prison courses that were completed when he was locked up at i. Otis fill. He argued that his home confinement should be shortened by months but the us bureau of prisons told him in a letter that he's not entitled to any credits for his work that was performed at f. c. i. otis ville dr deborah burks has announced. She's planning to retire. After being outed on sunday for not following your own holiday travel guidance calling the experience overwhelming in an interview with newsy the white house corona virus task force coordinator said she would help the incoming biden administration but then planeta head for the exits. I want the biden administration to be successful. Burke said noting that she has worked in the federal government since the reagan administration in one thousand nine hundred eighty the infectious disease expert. Sixty four was outed on for not following her own travel guidance when she was joined by three generations of family at one of her vacation properties on fenwick island in delaware. This was the day after thanksgiving. Looks like more residents escape from new york over the last year than any other state according to estimates that were released by the us census bureau on tuesday. Some one hundred twenty six thousand three hundred fifty five people high tailed it out of the empire state between july two thousand and nineteen july twenty twenty. That was a dip of zero point sixty five percent. The preliminary figures show. That new york has been losing local since two thousand sixteen but the most recent drop was significantly larger than in years past semi news. Tips did news at crusade. Channel dot com stay tuned to the crusade channel with live breaking news. Updates all day the best live talk radio anywhere up next. The mike church show continues. I'm stacey cohan for the crusade channel seeking news and finding truth.

President trump mike church katie anna steak stacey cohan stacy cohen cohen ranch winkelmann dr burks walmart congress Muller duncan hunter justice's civil division timothy shea Saint angela murray trump chris collins chuck schumer
CAFE Insider 9/15: Durham, Defamation, and Disenfranchisement

Stay Tuned with Preet

15:19 min | 4 months ago

CAFE Insider 9/15: Durham, Defamation, and Disenfranchisement

"Hey folks another busy week a politically charged legal news making the headlines. Last week nor dennehy veteran prosecutor and top aide to John Durham in the investigation into the FBI's Russia probe reportedly resigned in protest sparking concerns over the politicisation of Durham's inquiry. Meanwhile, the DOJ intervened in a defamation lawsuit brought by columnist Carol against trump seeking to take over the president's defense in the case. Eleven Circuit Court of Appeals Rule. The people convicted of felonies in Florida must pay all fines and fees before registering to vote reversing the lower court's decision which likened the payment requirement to poll tax and I discussed all of this and more on the cafe insider podcast. Today we're sharing a clip from the episode with listeners of stay tuned. To hear our full conversation and access all other cafe insider content including the newly launched United Security and Cyberspace podcasts try the membership free for two weeks. You can do that at cafe dot com slash insider that's cafe dot com slash insider college students with valid dot edu email qualify for a discount. To Cafe Dot. com slash student and sign up at a lower rate again that's cafe dot com slash student. We look forward to having you as part of the insider community. There's another issue that came up this past week and the Department of Justice, also relates to the Department Justice Department of Justice intervened moved to intervene in the defamation case that's been brought by president trump against Jean Carole and listeners may remember that Jean Carol. She is formerly contributor to. A writer she stated that she'd been raped by trump in the BERGDORF Goodman's dressing room twenty years ago. While she made this accusation a couple years back trump denied that while he was president and said that she was lying. Jean Carole then went on to sue the president for defamation surrounding this, and so the president has been represented by his private attorneys now DOJ is going to intervene what was your reaction to that. My reaction was the same as mostly like sports and I think the same as yours. It seems odd and weird and not the normal course that's before I look deeply at the law. The United States did something years ago in his personal capacity and there was an accusation with respect to that. And then as president. He made some remarks that I don't see how they can be considered part of his official duties as president, and that has to be the basis on which you get the DOJ at taxpayer expense. To defend you, I mean you and I have worked in government. Many many people are sued criminal defendants sometimes filed suit civil defendant sometimes filed suit and because you're doing things in the ordinary course of your official duties in my office, the Civil Division would represent. A USA's who got sued and have to face litigation. There has to be a certification by someone in the department that in fact, the conduct on what you're being sued. Happened in connection with your official duties. That certification was made here with respect to the president. It seems bizarre. That these comments about conduct that happened years earlier as a private citizen. Could be deemed to be within the president's official duties I've talked to. Superstar former colleagues. In the attorneys office in my civil division. In wondering am I missing something their view the view of both of them was at this was was not a sound argument that's that the president's making that department justice that the presence make a point. One other point when other parochial thing. This suit was unfolding in State Supreme Court in Newark and removal means it goes to federal court, and as you said, it's come to the southern district of New York in the ordinary course during seven half years and I was there That lawsuit and that motion would be handled by some person in the SDN Y. Maybe alongside someone in Washington but there were certainly be the US Attorney's signature block on the motion. And a particular assistant US attorney would be on the motion. There is no such signatory. On this, that could mean. Watching decided, they want to handle it on their own because they don't trust Sdn y unusually object to that. Or the acting was attorney Audrey. Strauss wants no part of this either because it's overly political or because they don't think. It's well-grounded in in law in fact, it's got to be one of those two things and that will be noticed by the judge in the case, it feels to me like it is more likely to be the latter that the acting US attorney didn't join in part because I think you're right I. think southern would fight very hard to be a part of it and also DOJ would will should understand that the judge will note that the southern district is part of it. It looks strange right? It sort of raises an issue that you wouldn't WanNa raise I think in the normal course unless there was a problem. So one of the things just to note is that You know an and this has been in State Court. The state judge recently opened up the door to for potential depositions of the president related to this, and also said that the president may have to provide DNA because of address Jean Carole. Still has didn't you think? The dress DNA and president would never have to be spoken in the same sentence over again again. Yeah. Exactly. After Bill Clinton. Yes. I. Very Much. Look, history rhymes I say. Yeah I'm sure it's true. I was having this problem when I read it and I was thinking about all the work. I did when I did sex crimes with DNA DNA stays on clothes for long periods of time I don't think it was. Not, a gap dress now but it exactly. But the whole thing was going through my my head as well. The sort of parallels. But yeah. So so look, there's the question of Wise Wise Doj doing this now I mean in part it's because the state court was heating up and and really what I think it is is that that the president's defense is basically said, look this is the best possible defense which is to walk in and say that the Federal Tort Claims, Act protects you and that you will be immune and just to let go A. Little Bit weedy on the law second because my initial reaction was exactly the same as yours. This is twenty five years ago. It relates to an incident that has nothing to do with the president's official duties, and essentially the only thing that the president did was make a you know a denial and criticism of miscarriage will while he was in office, there are two things to look at first is tort law and the second is a case that bill bar sites. The case law is very clear and there's a DC circuit case called Ballenger on the top. That says that because we are a representative democracy. Officials who are elected. And answer press questions while they're in office even if those questions relate to their personal activity and could bear upon their personal fitness. is in fact, in the course of federal employment and can be therefore certified under the Westfall. Act Ballenger related to a congressman who had made some statements about his wife didn't like living across the street from an organization that she'd like into being similar to Hezbollah, which is a organization that's on the terrorist watch list, and so he's sued for defamation and this goes in front of the DC circuit which found that the congressman was immune and pointed to the recruitment of. which is a law that defines the scope of an employee conduct. The restatement says that basically points out to potential areas that could be defined as within the scope of employment that could apply in this matter, which is one is the action. The kind that the person is employed to perform, and the other is whether or not the action is actuated at least in part by purpose to serve the master right basically like that, you're doing it in the course of your employment to serve your boss and so the question really here you sorta shorthanded as within the scope of the president's actions what I think is complicated. Is that and why this isn't exactly as I would have expected to be is that your gut is that this is a private matter relates to the president's conduct when he was not in office but as to the defamation claim and the statement made by the president, it is clear that there are cases that have found like you know Senator Kennedy was found immune when he had a conversation at one point about operation rescue talking about antiabortion activists and. So it's clear that like a politician scope of office like they talk about a lot of things and so there are definitely examples where there has been immunity that has been found. But I think here pre like I. Think the President May win this one but I don't think he should. But the reason I don't think he should win is that about it basically be saying that anything in the world is within the president's domain and anything he talks about. Is Part of his official job I mean it goes back to the president having this view of himself as this autocrat and the president being powerful. Like, there'd be no line if this could apply to his private conduct. Yeah we should be sure that we're distinguishing two things. One is whether or not he deserves taxpayer-funded defense. By the Justice Department. And separate from that is whether he deserves to prevail in the suit whether he's immune or not, and those those are two different questions and they have different standards. With respect to the first question that's that's the one on the table most directly at the moment. I'm you and I were talking about before we started taping. Often Bill Barca tasks to question they talked some smack and he makes passing references to. Fax Not in the record here. You know he was pretty strident and made specific reference to that case that you mentioned and to other areas of law and you got the sense that he was a little bit more prepared. To answer this question and look, and they do have a certification. From within the department saying this within the scope of the president's duties and you can argue about it but. When we think about the arguments made by the Justice Department and by the president's allies in by the president himself. It is useful sometimes. To put them on the spectrum and sometimes the arguments are ludicrous and ridiculous. Sometimes. They're arguable and sometimes they're strong that last last bit. Is Not. Often the case but sometimes they are there's other legal question. I don't know the answer to, but people have talked about it. With respect to the question of whether or not. The DOJ should be defending the president in what looks like a private suit and that is. The Federal Tort Claims Act applies only to an employee of the government. The case law crystal clear that the Westphal lacked applies to claims against the president, the vice president, as well as other federal employees and members of Congress. Is the president and employees of the government and I think that's a a little bit of an unclear question or the answer that is a little bit unclear. The act defines employees as officers or employees or persons acting on behalf of. A federal agency or members of the military. And one. Legal Scholarly is pointed out. It's not at all clear that the president is an employee of president is the head of government. And if he's an employee that implies that there's employer. And who would that be? Yeah I. Just. Sort of go back to the specifics of of the merits just as say it this way. I think that there's an argument that the tort immunity statute that the courts have had an expansive reading of the scope of what an elected officials office might be. But I think it's also really important to think about here we're talking about a rape allegation against him personally I think it's different if he were discussing a bill to outlaw rape of a victim's compensation bill like obviously he's going to be talking about this subject. But what's different is that this is about his personal conduct and there's no potential argument that a sexual assault would fall within the scope of the presidency and so I think that there's a really interesting. You know politicians have been given sort of wide. Berth on what statements can can be considered part of their official capacity. What cannot be, but this feels to me like it is beyond the line both potentially because the statute doesn't apply to the president and as everybody knows like if law doesn't say it applies to you then the court either has to read it in that it would apply to the president which it hasn't done before this has never come up or they have to follow the letter of the law as it's written, which is what most courts in my in my view when a law is clear on something most courts will follow the clear language of the law. You know you should make another point you know. When you make arguments. Whether you are a member of Congress or your company where the United States you'd like to have consistency in the arguments you make to the courts. Even, if they're different context, you don't make arguments of convenience. To avoid liability or responsibility. Depending, on what the circumstances are argued, different points of law. In other contexts, we've seen the Department of Justice advanced one position in one case in a different position in another case, and that is happening here as well. Leela decide to her again points out that in this case with respect to the defamation suit, the president wants to make the argument through the Department of. Justice. That his comments, even about a private matter. Constitute official action something that's officially part of the the the president of the United. States as supposed employees of the government in other contexts has been fought out in court well. The president wanted to justify the ability to block people from following him on twitter right and in that case as Lipton writes. The department has argued that the president can block people on the social media site because the president's twitter feed amounts to purely private speech, not official action. So if it's on twitter and he likes it and he wants to evade liability, he wants to obey liability for blocking people. It's private speech on the other hand if it's about an alleged rape from years before. That he talks about in denies that's official action. Those things are inconsistent and by the way courts notice things like that. I agree and it's also it really does speak to the president's intent what he's trying to do here and I great. It's important to look at how he flops his position really in order to to gain additional power for him south. So you know we've been doing long enough and that stories. Come back to us that we've talked about at some length previously in one story that we both talked about. Is the voting situation in Florida. And I. Think we're both in agreement though we were former prosecutors. That once you've served your time. I hope you like the sample of the cafe insider podcast to listen to the full episode head to cafe. Dot Com slash insider, and try out the membership free for two weeks. Interested students with a valid dot edu email can head to cafe dot com slash student too many of you who have chosen to join the inside or community. Thank you for supporting our work.

president DOJ official Jean Carole Department Justice Department Circuit Court of Appeals Justice Department United States vice president Cafe Dot. Florida State Court cafe insider Civil Division Bill Clinton rape BERGDORF Goodman John Durham United Security Jean Carol
Monitor Show 17:00 06-20-2020 17:00

Bloomberg Radio New York - Recording Feed

01:42 min | 7 months ago

Monitor Show 17:00 06-20-2020 17:00

"Sure you're smart, but do you have Bloomberg intelligence from Beijing Kubeck Intelligence Chief Asia economist Tom. All insight into where crucial industries stand today and where they may be heading next. Senior analyst Jonathan ties enhance your Wall Street acumen with Bloomberg. Intelligence Ellie director view be Bloomberg Intelligence. And Great. On the program in Beg intelligence only on Bloomberg Radio, the Bloomberg radio plus APP and Bloomberg Dot Com twenty four hours a day at Bloomberg dot com, the Bloomberg business, APP and on quick take. Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg radio now a global news update. Prosecutor fired. Bolton Book I'm Anne. cates the top federal prosecutor in Manhattan who had been investigating some of president. Trump's allies has been fired correspondent Evan Perez reports Jeffrey. Berman had refused to resign. There was a meeting in New York between the Attorney General Bill Barr. With Jeff Berman the journey in Manhattan. He was offered. Another job told we need you to step down, and we're going to offer you a position here. At main justice at the headquarters for the Justice Department running the Civil Division, Berman declined that offer and according to sources. Berman thought that there was gonNA be further conversation. A federal judge has ruled today that former national security adviser John. Bolton can release his. Tell all book next Tuesday despite efforts by the trump administration to block it correspondent Kristen. Holmes is at the White House. The Department of Justice did not present enough evidence. That should stop the publication of this book, but they also cite this idea that the damage was already done that the book had already been out there had.

Bloomberg Bloomberg Intelligence Bloomberg Radio Jeff Berman Beijing Kubeck Intelligence Bolton Manhattan Department of Justice Senior analyst Prosecutor Trump Jonathan ties Justice Department Tom Bill Barr Kristen Evan Perez White House Holmes
CAFE Insider 06/24: Unsafe, Unsanitary, Untenable

Stay Tuned with Preet

15:21 min | 1 year ago

CAFE Insider 06/24: Unsafe, Unsanitary, Untenable

"I folks another other week of news to make sense of the Justice department attorney has argued that the government isn't legally required to give soap and blankets to detained migrant children, shocking the judges and the public who viewed the video of the oil arguments in unusual move deputy attorney general Jeffrey Rosen intervened, seemingly to spare Paul Manafort, from being transferred to the notorious Rikers island jail, and New York while he awaits trial in state charges. And the White House of stonewalling of congress continues with former White House communications director hope Hicks asserting absolute immunity in refusing to answer the House Judiciary committee's questions last week. I've talked about all this and more with Anne milgram on the cafe insider podcast each week. We break down the news and take stock of what's happening today. We're making a clip from the most recent episode available and the stay tuned feed to listen to our full conversation and access all other cafe insider content become a member at cafe dot com slash insider that's cafe dot com slash insider. To the ninth circuit. We only have one case on the calendar this afternoon, Flora's versus bar. The florist settlement basically says that the children must be housed in facilities that meet certain standards including state sandards for housing and care of dependent children. It gives lacing authority. So all the programs have to be licensed. And then basically, what it's required that the miners are in the least restrictive settings. And, you know, you said it safe and sanitary facilities toilets and sinks drinking water and food, medical assistance, temperature control supervision and contact with family members among other requirements. And what the lawyer was saying, was that she doesn't want to get into or sort of have at least at first blush. I think she was starting to say, I don't wanna get into what that list is the government doesn't see this as part of our list. And by the way, you're supposed to look at it in the totality of circumstances. So it's not just is there a toothbrush. Is it? Was trying to basically argue it's everything put together. It is the most absurd legal argument. I have seen. I, I don't know how she made it with a straight face. I actually I don't know how she made it shock, frankly. Yeah. Safe and sanitary conditions is one thing. But the ultimate conclusion is. Safe and sanitary is a singular category in the agreement. And it was it was one has to assume left that way, and not enumerated, by the parties because either the party's couldn't reach agreement on how to numerate that or the it was left to the agencies to deter to determine oiling. It was relatively obvious in his least obvious enough. So that if you're putting it it's, it's really reprehensible in my view, and we should talk a little bit about what the administration is doing because when you and I am in both of us you did investigation into Rutgers the jail facility, which will probably talk about a minute when we start talking about Paul Manafort, but I spent a lot of time in federal and state jails and prisons there. Everybody gets a toothbrush, right? Everybody gets a clean change of clothes. When you look at prisoners of war by the Geneva Convention. They get toothbrushes. They get cleaned clothes. So what our United States government is basically saying is that children who've come with their parents seeking asylum. Are not entitled to basic human rights. Does a couple of things here? Right. So on one level, the average person listens to the argument and says will at seems to violate everything that I think is good and right. And proper anything about your own kids, and you think about what common sense dictates and most people don't know about the floor settlement nor should they know about the Florida settlement. But they think you know, the, the way that proper human beings treat children is a certain way, and that includes, you make sure they're able to sleep and have toothbrushes it's cetera. But I want to think about this as a lawyer also. So obviously, that's the most important thing as a lawyer. You're sending one of your people. You're the attorney general. I was he was turning and I had people my civil division, who might have argued things like this, you to defend your client in this case. D DHS. Yeah. It's worth noting that the local US attorney's offices. They represent the department homeland security, and they're in the position of defending the United States. Government over here is not using his office. It's being done at a Washington. It's done at a main Justice, but it's all the federal prosecutors, essentially represent the federal government. What's really? Trusting here is it's not just them representing the federal government. It's them appealing from the decision of the lower court. Roach said no, there are not safe insanitary conditions here. And the government is sort of accepting that and changing their practice. They decided you know what we're going to appeal this. Right so separate from a humanitarian issue as a legal strategy as litigation strategy. You're sending your lawyer in to make this argument in front of a panel. That's a fairly if people like to say nine circuit is generally liberal, these are all three Clinton appointees, and you know, that the public is going to see this argument you're making and, you know, if you're thinking, rationally at all that it's really going to piss off these judges, because it's kind of an insane argument to make so as a litigation strategy, we have other issues that are before them. And you have other cases you may want to, you know, appeal and talk about you're putting your weakest foot forward and, and credibility is important, you know, in leadership, but it's also important for a litigator to go before a court. And as we saw from the clips. And people should watch them if you haven't every single one of the members of that court panel were, if not enraged, then shocked by the argument being made and that should have been, I think predicted before she went in. Yeah. There's no question about it. And, and I think there's sort of a number of layers of legal questions, we could be asking the first is whether the government should have even litigated the original case in the district court, which is to say that, look, their basic minimum standards of human decency, eight that are not being complied with the government should do that. And I want to sort of talk a little bit, maybe in a minute about why I think the government isn't doing that, but they should have agreed to that. But even if they didn't at that I cut once the judge basically said, no, you're wrong. You gotta change the judgment to take that appeal, which you were clearly gonna lose in my view, and you clearly should lose based on the language. The clear language of the settlement. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. There's obviously politics and all of this, but they sent a lawyer. And she changed her story a little as you're watching it. She's deeply uncomfortable. And I find it fascinating one of the three judges was actually he was in a Japanese internment camp as a young child, and he was the first Japanese American federal appellate judge. Everybody's common understanding that, you know, if you don't have the toothbrush, if you don't have. So if you don't have a blanket, it's not safe and. Wouldn't everybody agreed to that? Do you agree to that? Well, I think it's I think those are there's fair reason to find that those things may be part of statement may are apart. What do you say, maybe? You mean there are circumstances when person doesn't need to have a toothbrush toothpaste until for days? Well, I think in custody, there's free. It's frequently intended to be much shorter term. So it you know she's walking in chino. She's walking it, and she's gonna be up against a lot of very tough questioning and she can't do it. I mean, she they're saying to you personally. Are you telling me that you don't think that basic safety and sanitary conditions require things like toothbrushes is unclear to me, whether she had a hard time of it because she's not a good advocate or because she knew she had no argument or she was uncomfortable, making the argument or all of the above. Just also, by the way, I watched the argument and I thought about it, and it seems shocking to me and abuse that word a bunch of times already. But also like to do a gut check. And I think careful citizens and lawyers should always do that and thinks yourself, what am I missing? Is there some argument in favor of the DOJ position? Hear that? I'm just not aware of and his alluding me and my initial gut was that if someone in my office were being asked to make this argument on behalf of the client when I was used to journey. I don't think there's any civil division. Assistant us attorney in my office, who would have agreed to stand up and make that argument. And if someone had agreed to stand up and make that argument, I would have told them we're not doing that. And we wouldn't have signed the brief and there were times during my, my tenures, US attorney that, you know, we sometimes had a disagreement and we would take our name offer brief, and we would not make a particular argument. Some people can call that defines I call it through exercising, your own conscience. But I did a gut check. I talked to other folks for prosecutors prosecutors, who I worked with in our civil division, and they had the same reaction that if it had fallen to us to make that argument, we just wouldn't have made it. And so that gets to another question that people have been raising and that is what was the proper role for individual attorney at DOJ Sarah Fabian, and how much blame should be placed on her. Was she just doing her job? You know on the one hand, she's not the only person who can be blamed for making the argument, obviously it was vetted. Obviously, it's a position of the department as often happens in these cases, you had to have been mooted, meaning she did practice sessions of argument with supervisors in the office. Maybe when, you know, fairly high up in the Justice department, it's a very sensitive case in a lot of people looking at it. So the department has a whole has a responsibility to make only worthwhile and humane and moral arguments and legal arguments. But then what was the role she plays in? How do you think about her decision to go forward? I think I think it's important conversation for us to have because, you know, my view is that the way society treats its children is really illustrative of how government works, and that we're failing miserably, here's a country and I sort of think that, you know, if all of us, sit at home and think about, you know, you read a book about the civil rights movement. And you think, oh, I would have been you know, with Martin Luther King on that side you'd like to think about how you would have responded in times of crisis in turmoil like this and. I sort of feel like we're missing the point that we're actually in one of those times right now and countries and governments that use children and harm children to punish adults to me are not countries that we want to be a part of. And so I personally feel very, very strongly about this. And I think there's no question in my mind. I wouldn't have done it. I wouldn't have let or asked any of the lawyers who worked for me to do it. The one thing I will say, though is that? And so I, I do fault her personally with doing it. I think she shouldn't have done it. But I agree really strongly with your, your comment that, there are a lot of people in this, and I think it's a mistake to see it as this is Sarah Fabian decision. This isn't Sarah Phoebe incision. This is Donald Trump's decision. This is his head of the department of homeland security. This is the head of customs and border patrol. And so she is an arm the department of Justice is being an arm of those political wishes, and she went along with it, and I think all of us have to account for in this moment. Whether we go along with this, or whether we stop it. So I think she's accountable, but I also think that it's just easy because we saw her on TV the argument is so outrageous, it's easy, just to point, all of our sort of vitriol at her. But she's one small piece of a much bigger pie that we need to stay focused on. And I think one of the things I would, I would sort of raise is that there's a real conversation that's happening here and I haven't seen it in the media very much. But there's something that the customs and border patrol have been doing for a long time, which is the sort of hundred mile zone and what that means is that the way CB PC's is at the constitution essentially doesn't apply that the rules are different that there's expanded powers for customs and border patrol within a hundred miles of the borders of the United States, and that applies to when people are seeking asylum that applies to, you know, search and seizure rights to length of detention. And there are real questions in my view that the administration is pushing based on this argument. That the same rules, do not apply in those territories for people who are not lawfully in the United States that apply in the rest of the country and all that people could sit at home and say, well, what does it matter? I'm not crossing the border at Mexico, but one hundred miles from the border is literally two thirds of all the people in the United States. That's two hundred million people. So if we start to think about this, and, you know, I'm just sort of, you know, putting this out there. If this is one of the first steps of how to Tallaght -tarian regimes treat children and families and start to strip away rights. It's not just a question of people crossing the border. It is today, people coming seeking lawful Silom. It's a question of within one hundred miles, that's a lot of people in a lot of distance. And so what worries me about this fight on Florida's influence, the US government? Agreed. We'll follow any state detention rules. Right. Any state that has foster care rules are child protective rules. We'll follow them. So the government has agreed to that, now they're walking into a court and basically saying, we want to make that as narrow as possible. They're supposed to hold. Kids for twenty days, they're holding them for way more than twenty days to breaking all the rules, and they're going to argue that either the rules don't apply or that they're coming up with, I think, specious with really, you know, unfounded legal arguments to try to justify conduct that you and I would sit there and say, how is that possibly not violate the laws in don't even get y you know there's the moral reason that it makes no sense. There's the legal argument that is species, and terrible. And there's a pragmatic argument like what, what does it get you going to have defeat after defeat handed? Maybe they're thinking, it'll go up to the supreme court and we'll have a favorable supreme court but as a weird case even to do that on because they signed a settlement. So I, I agree with you. This is a very odd example. I tend to start to believe the argument that some people making that new, the cruelty is the point and you'd like to think that no one is being intentionally cruel. There just may be being dumb about how they're engaging in their policies. But at some point, you have no choice but to believe that the cruelty is the point. And you want the message to go forth through Central America and other. That if you come with a child, they will be if not abused then completely neglected and not given basic elements to live, a safe and sanitary existence, while they're held on concrete floors, with no beds, and aluminum blankets in US custody. And that seems to me to be, you know what a terrible policy not as a terrible, legal argument, toothbrushes, and blankets and medicine basic conditions for kids aren't they apart of how the United States of America? The Trump administration treats children. Well, of course, they are J. Well, the alarm was arguing honest, I can't speak to what that Lori was saying. It's one of the reasons we ask for more 'bedspace, right? When we're the negotiable, mental note, when we were negotiating during the government shutdown Democrats, in congress, refused to expand the bedspace, and the capacity for us to, to detain going on right now borders. It it's one of the reasons why we continue to call on congress to give DHS customs and border protection. Additional re. Resources at the border nation in the what? Have money to give toothpaste and soap and blankets to these kids in this facility. I hope you've enjoyed the sample of the cafe insider podcast to listen to the full episode head to cafe dot com slash insider and become a member. That's cafe dot com slash inside to the many of you who have chosen to join the insider community. Thank you for supporting our work.

government United States attorney Paul Manafort Justice department congress US attorney Florida Anne milgram Sarah Fabian DOJ cafe insider White House Jeffrey Rosen Flora New York department of Justice deputy attorney general House Judiciary committee
Masha Gessen on Recognizing an Autocrat

Politics and More Podcast

15:15 min | 7 months ago

Masha Gessen on Recognizing an Autocrat

"I'm Dorothy wiggin on today's politics and more podcast David Remnant talks with New Yorker staff writer Masha, Gessen about her new book surviving. OUGHTA crecy. Guessing who has lived and worked in Moscow discusses what her time journalist in Putin's Russia has taught her about trump's America. Hot dominated you don't. You wish to. Jerk. Response to the uprising triggered by George Floyd's killing the president tells governors to dominate protesters. Trump is threatened to use the insurrection act of eighteen. Oh seven! He's called military forces to patrol Washington DC and he issued this ominous threat. When the looting starts, shooting starts. His administration used tear gas and rubber bullets to clear protesters for a photo op though they claim otherwise. For Staff Writer Masha Gessen. These actions are just more fodder to reinforce something that has seemed obvious to them for years. Masha new book called surviving autocracy. It's a series of essays making the case that the president thinks and acts not at all a democratic leader, but as an autocrat, a strong man for whom laws and norms are just hindrances to be ignored. The book was informed by the years that Masha spent as a journalist and Vladimir Putin's Russia. We spoke last week. Has Been Bizarre few days for me and my social newsfeed. I see posts from my friends in the states and my friends in Russia about their children getting arrested I, suppose from my friends in the states and my friends in Russia about journalist, getting arrested or beaten up at protests. And Sometimes I. Forget what which language I'm reading in. How do you see what's going on? Are these protests going to set out a kind of civil division that can be exploited by Donald Trump in an election, and in power in such a way that his autocratic a tendencies will deepen and deepen and get even more profound. And then I really try not to make predictions, but what I think we do know. Is that polarization and violence anti-anxiety? Or all things that benefit autocrat. And actually of all of those I think anxiety is perhaps the most important element. My favorite social psychologist Erik from has I think the best theory of how autocracies come to be. His famous book escape from freedom, which was published in nineteen forty eight. When he felt, the world was on the verge of catastrophe. And it seems he was right. But his his theory is that there are times when a critical mass of people is experiencing such extreme anxiety. About how to invent themselves about not knowing who they are or what the future will be like it and that kind of anxieties. Can Be caused by economic upheaval by the dislocation of people. And at that point it freedom becomes so unbearable. The people want to give up agency. Give it over to if figure that from called the magic helper. Somebody, who promises to transport them to imaginary past. were. They felt more secure. And we've you know this is just the perfect storm with were We've been in a state of high anxiety bordering on terror because of the corona virus now for three months. And we re opening into the state of extreme anxiety and and violence. And That that can be revolutionary opening. But it's also very likely an opportunity for the autocrat to weaponize anxiety to weaponize the fear, and certainly to weaponize the division. Masha I want to return to the demonstrations on and all of this members of CNN crew were arrested in Minnesota by the police as they were covering, the protests and other reporters have been hit with tear gas rubber bullets in. There have been arrests all over. I wonder what went through your mind when you watch that video of Minneapolis police arresting the CNN correspondent Omar Jimenez. Several things with through my mind at the same time I think they're probably office one. Is You know this is what she gets broadcasting while being a person of color. but also you know being labeled. The enemy of the people has consequences, and that's what we're watch. For, Steve Bannon Donald Trump started labeling the media, the opposition party, and then the enemy of the American people. I think that is very strong labeled. That has spread far beyond. What we imagine a trump's base of support actually I see it when I. When I talk to my students, how so you're sort of left leaning students are think of the presses enemy. People's well. My left-leaning students at a very liberal college. have clearly been affected by this idea that it is not cool. To like or trust immediate. They're they're suspicious agents and you think that's the influence of trump or the failings, either occasional, or often of what's now called the corporate media. I think it's both I think that's you know. We obviously saw declining. Trust in the media long before trump I mean it was on a on a long downward slope, and then trump came along and amplified this beyond anything. We could have imagined I think a few years ago. I know that your daughter was detained at one of these protests in New York and you. You wrote about it so well. I wonder what. Someone that age makes Donald Trump I know when I'm talking to Sometimes with younger people And I start in on trump. They're bored with it, not bored with it, but they just think that enough already about that. You're missing the essence of things I think I'm not that that trump actually as an individual is important How do you view that? And how does your daughter view it? You know my daughter. Has had kind of tragic history. She was born. Under Vladimir Putin. There was a moment when. When rural protesting! Now almost ten years ago. and. I talked to her about the protests and she said. You mean. There may not be Putin at some point. And I realized that to her. She was ten years old at the time. To her. That was almost unthinkable. Had always been there. And fast forward if years we had. Emigrated to the United States and And I came home in election night. And, she was in tears and she said. It's it's rush all over again. But. What did you say to her? Did you say yes, it is Russia all over again or something else. I said something else. I said this country has a different history. This country has different political culture. no institutions will not save us. But here we still stand a fighting chance of. Of a peaceful transfer of power. That is external to Donald Trump. Marshall one of the things that seems to me. Particularly alarming is the sort of. Insistent misinformation that you see coming from the administration. I mean you see this in his tweets in his remarks of course, but it's. It's been hard to get even transparent data from federal agencies. The CDC's numbers on Covid nineteen deaths have been called into question by epidemiologists and even politicians. How do you explain this utter lack of transparency even around numbers when you're thinking about an autocracy? You know one way that I have found the useful for me to think about the hard to explain. Events that that we witnessed is is a question of audience. In Democratic country, the audience of public health agencies of politicians is the public. Right, but it's represented by the media or directly. In a talk received. The audience is one person, right? It's the it's the autocrat and that can take. Various like one of the reasons that it's to this day extremely difficult to work. With Soviet archival materials even when you can get access to them. Is that there's that lingering question of audience. An intent would was this fort. Was this something that was just created to get whoever wrote up this document out of trouble or to get him promotion? Perhaps, it has new relationship reality. So my question in looking at those kinds of reports that that we find explicable as WHO's the audience that is the same question that. When we look at some CDC reports right that are impossible to reconcile with state by state data. It's possible that is explained by incompetence and some sort of bureaucratic mess was possible that explained by looking at who the audience, these reports trump in many ways is a very transparent being. He talks to loads reporters. He gives a he. May Not give the kind of press conferences that we're used to, but he's quite available, and that is not the case with Vladimir Putin. You're one of the few journalists I know who's had experience in both countries. That's really deep. And I remember that you had a very interesting encounter with when you were an editor of a magazine that really. I guess. I could compare in some ways to national geographic in Russia. Yes I while I was fired from my job at at the magazine. For not sending reported to to cover Putin's hang gliding with the Siberian cranes. But. That is because. You gave that in shorthand most autocrats or leaders of any kind do not hang glide with Siberian crane, so what exactly was happening there? Most autocrats like spectacle, and and that was that was a special he was, he was proving that he was not just president of the country, but also king of the jungle and so he was going to. I mean that's the thing people. There's a way to show migratory birds new migratory routes that are safer by kind of pretending to be if flock leader. So pushing actually dressed as a Siberian crane and Hang, gliders. I refuse to send somebody. That didn't go over got fired and Putin called me. And her in a car. You're at a restaurant. You're your tax. Taxi. He called me on my cell phone. And you say Hello Vladimir Vladimirovich. Well I thought I was talking to a Prankster, so I kept trying to come up with something smart to say would say to you. Well you said you know I heard you got fired I heard him unwittingly at fault. Would you like to come in and talk about it and I said Yeah I. But how do I know you are who you say you are? In, he actually started laughing. So after we hang up the deputy administration will call you. Set up an appointment show you'll know. How did the meeting go? It was ridiculous. He offered me my job back. The president of Russia offered you your editorial job back as the head of Russian National Geographic as it were. Yes, because I mean this was back in twenty twelve but by that point. person, really could not tell where he ended and everything else in Russia began. Basically, if he thought if you liked them something if you like something, he thought he owned it. And I think this this is something that is. That is important to keep in mind as we observed trump. I mean I. think that it's not dissimilar to how he conceptualizes power. Power is everything powers control over everything. Masha is this reversible in in an immediate sense. Let's let's say right now. We're looking at polls from CNN. And elsewhere that have Joe Biden. Whatever's limitations far ahead? Of Donald Trump nationally and I believe that he is the running highest in modern polls ever for somebody challenging a sitting president. Now that could all change, but of Joe Biden's elected. How much of trumpism lingers? Does he leave office peacefully? Happens the next day on. Twenty first, twenty twenty one. Well actually more worried about what happens in November fourth. I think there's a very real possibility that he will refuse to recognize the results election. I think he has certainly rhetorically laid the groundwork for that again I think. Journalists should never make predictions but we hand observed that he has laid the groundwork. He has continued to to talk about voter fraud to the point where it finally got twitter to to faction Kim for the first time ever. So he in his supporters are absolutely prepared and will be credulous. When he calls fraud it, he lose so in a way. The country's fate in possibility of civil unrest in that sense rests upon a one man's. Sins if personnel humiliation. possibly. There's a slight hope that he is laser than than he is likely to feel humiliated but I'm scared at the again the the sort of the theory of the case. Is already out there. The New Yorkers Masha Gessen. The new book is called surviving autocracy.

Donald Trump Vladimir Putin Russia Masha Gessen president Steve Bannon Donald Trump CNN CDC anxiety Washington DC George Floyd Joe Biden staff writer Moscow Russia Dorothy wiggin New York America
#B222 (born to borough hall)

The Dictionary

09:43 min | 5 months ago

#B222 (born to borough hall)

"Hello were nerds welcome to this soothing episode of the dictionary. I'M GONNA speak like this the whole time. But in the last episode I was yawning a lot and I think every time I looked down. which I was doing most of the time I don't know it just made me on. So. Let's try and not make that happen this time. The first word is born B. O., R. N. adjective from. The before the twelfth century, one, a brought forth by or as if by birth one, be synonym is native. Usually used in combination as in American, born, one-seat, deriving or resulting from usually used in combination again as in poverty born crime to a having from birth specified qualities as in a born leader. To be being in specified circumstances from birth as in nobly born also is in born to wealth three destined from or as if from birth as in born to succeed. This is from. Old English Boren or Bhairon, which means to carry and there's more at the word bear. Next. Is Born again two words they hyphen adjective from ADP eighteen, sixty one sorry. Had some guests that came out like a burp one of relating to or being a usually Christian person who has made a renewed or. Commitment faith especially after an intense religious experience never to having returned to or newly adopted an activity. A conviction or a persona especially with a proselytizing zeal how do you say that word proselytizing I thought there was a t h in their proselytize, but maybe not as in a born again. Conservative. This is from the verse in the Bible. That says except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God from some letters and numbers. Are Right now we have the word born, but this one has an e at the end. It is the I form past participle of the word bear be our. Second form of born adjective from Circa Fifteen, fifty, nine transported or transmitted by, and that is used in combination as in soil born or airborne. Next is Borneo or Borneo. B. O. R. N. E. O. L. Noun from eighteen seventy six, a crystalline cyclic alcohol C ten, h seventeen o h that occurs in two. And Nam Matry Americ- wet. And then an-and trio Merrick it goes over to the second line. Why is it that the hardest words go over two lines? And Nan trio merrick forms is found essential oils and is used especially in perfumery. This is from the the island of Indonesia called Borneo. Next is bore night. Noun from. Circa eighteen forty seven, a brittle metallic looking mineral that consists of a sulfide of copper. Consists of a read that correctly that consists of a sulfide of copper and iron and is a valuable copper or. This is from German. Let's see. Okay. Yes it is from. Ignacio von born. WHO DIED IN WO 179 not. Oh Oh boy I misread that. died in seventeen, ninety one was an Australian Mineralogy I. and. So They took his name and they made born knit B.. O. R.. And then we changed it with an e at the end for night. I thought that the one in seventeen ninety one was a right bracket, but it is not. All. Right. Next is borough B. O. R. O.. It is a prefix which means Boron as in Boro. Silicate. Next. Is Borough hydride now known from nineteen forty, the an-and be h four of Boron. And it looks like there's a minus sign next to the four but super script I don't know what that means. So the end of Boron and hydrogen that is used especially as a reducing agent and as a source of hydrogen atoms also any of various compounds as of metals containing the borough hydride antion I don't know what an anti on is but I'm sure I read it before. Next is Boron. Noun from eighteen twelve, a try vaillant metal Lloyd element found in nature only in combination and use the specially in glass and. And then it says, see the element table Moronic is an adjective. You just switch the be with an m. and you have something completely different moron. MORONIC. Next is Boron. Carbide, now, from Circa nineteen o nine, a refractory shiny black crystalline compound before see that is one of the hardest known materials and is used especially in abrasives and as a structural reinforcing material. Next is borough silicate or. Silicate it is a noun from eighteen seventeen, one, a silicate containing Boron in the antion and occurring naturally number two synonym is borough silicate glass, which is our next word Noun from nineteen thirty three, a silicate glass that is composed of at least five percent oxide of on and is used especially in heat resistant glassware. Next is borough This is the one that I mentioned a couple of episodes ago B. O. R. O. U. G. H. Noun from. Before the twelfth century one, a medieval fortified group of houses forming a town with special duties and privileges. One be a town or urban constituency in great. Britain, that sends a member to parliament one see an urban area in Great Britain Inc for purposes of self government. To a a municipal corporation proper in some states as New Jersey and Minnesota corresponding to the incorporated town or village of the other states. To be one of the five constituent political divisions of New, York City. Maybe I can find out what those five are and number three a civil division of the state of Alaska corresponding to a county in most other states. This is from Middle English Burg So it's related you know you'll see Burg at the end of a Tau or at the end of a name of a town. In the that means a little a little town, a Burgh. From Middle English, Burg of old English Burg, which means a fortified town akin to the old high German Burg which means fortified place and probably to old English Bjorg, which means hill and there's more at the Barrow. Next is borough English. So yeah, just English after Borough Noun from the fourteenth century, a custom formerly existing in parts of England by which the lands of an into state descended to the youngest son. Okay interstate what is this word? It looks like interstate but they took the are. A custom formerly existing in parts of England by which the lands of an interstate descended to the youngest son. Alright. Borough English and last word is borough hall borough -Bio Oh. No B. O. R. O. U. G. H. and the Word Hall Noun from Nineteen Thirty eight a chief administrative building of a borough. And Yeah. That's all of them. So we had born born again born Bernie oil born night borough borough hydride Boron Boron Carbide borough silicate Brazil glass borough borough English, Borough Hall, I'm GonNa pick borough as the word of the episode So yeah, that's it. we are. At, the end of August we're almost at the very end of August. Now when I'm recording this, I'm in night even the really the middle of August yet. But you know I like to live in the future. Or the past depending on how you look at it. This has been Spencer dispensing information, thank you and goodbye.

Boron Boron Borough Hall Boron Boron Carbide Burg Middle English Burg England English Burg Borneo B. O. Nam Matry Americ Indonesia Merrick Bhairon vaillant metal Lloyd Alaska B. O. R. N. E. O. Spencer Bernie oil B. O. R. O. U. G. H.
Week In Review for the Week of 1/27/2020 - DTH

Daily Tech Headlines

06:50 min | 1 year ago

Week In Review for the Week of 1/27/2020 - DTH

"I'm Sarah Lane these tech headlines for the week. Starting January twenty seventh the vines accessory. Bite launched Sean Sean. IOS And android on Friday the APP was created by binds CO founder. John Hoffman and lets users upload and share six second looping videos at launch the interface offers offers a main feed explore page notifications and profiles by plans to launch a pilot partner program soon to provide popular users a way to make money. Something and at Hoffman claims will differentiate the service from tick tock and snapchat APPS. Google is changing its newly created presentation of paid search results on the desktop. The company had had changed the paid results to look just like regular results but with an ad icon in the upper left hand corner where a publisher's barbeque on. Otherwise go in a tweet. Google said quotes. We've heard your feedback about the update. We always want to mix search betters. We're going to experiment with new placements for Falcons. The test will try different placements of the icons in response to a San Francisco Chronicle Investigation Grub stated. It began adding some restaurants with sites for delivery without a formal agreement from the restaurants. These are usually high demand restaurants. And in these instances grub send somebody to the restaurant to police the order with driver coming for delivery grab did the state that are partners with over one hundred forty thousand restaurants and that most listings are with explicit partners restaurant owner. Say in these cases grub hub often has inaccurate accurate or out of date listings in prices. You came ministers on the National Security Council agreed. The National Cybersecurity Center should issue guidance that high risk vendors should be excluded from the core of telecom operators and no high risk vendor should make up more than thirty five percent of the edge access network like phone masts in addition high risk vendors would be barred from sensitive locations like nuclear sites and military bases as well as any critical national infrastructure. The NCS's does is not an exhaustive list of high risk vendors but while way is considered one of them while we're has more than thirty five percent of the equipment in UK access networks. telcos have three years to modify their implementations to reach the recommended levels the guidance has been issued to telecoms but parliament will need to enact legislation to implement the guidance as law facebook made its off facebook activity tool available to all two billion plus members which shows one hundred eighty days of data that facebook collects from code. I used by non facebook sites to serve ads or offer facebook interactivities such as lakes or embedded posts. You can see how facebook received information such as whether you logged in using facebook or did a search and you can disconnect the third party from accessing your facebook data with a clear history button although any data it has already collected won't won't be affected it also isn't the sending that will stop the third party from collecting data in the future. That's in a different section of settings over the next two weeks. FACEBOOK plans to prompt all users to review those settings in the privacy checkup to all the information. Sources say that Google may unify its existing communication services into a workplace oriented did apt to compete with slack and Microsoft teams the unified opposite to include g mail messaging and the companies to hang out APPS hangouts chat and hangups meets plus drive have access so teams can share content more easily all offered as part of G. Suites the United States Interior. Permanent officials plan to formally adopt a no fly rule for all non emergency uses of drones while it assesses them for security risks. Interior officials say that all departments. Roughly eight hundred drones are made in China. War Have Chinese parts and temporarily grounded. Its fleet last year over concerns that the devices could be used for espionage interior secretary. David Bernhardt told The Wall Street Journal that his department will grant exceptions for training flights tracking wildfires and in emergencies where human safety or property damage our risk such search and rescue operations bit Moji. TV will launch on snapchat February. I the new offering will have its own snapchat show page. That users can subscribe to with new episodes showing up on the discover page. Content will feature the Emoji Avatar of users as the protagonist and the last person they interacted with on snapchat that as their co-star user avatars silent while friends will be voiced shows are designed to be. PG Thirteen rated with mild violence and bleeped out swearing content for the first season was written and directed by bit Moody Co Founder and CEO Bob. Last snap says that seventy percent of its two hundred. Ten million daily active users have created a bit Mu g avatar assistant attorney general for the US Justice Department Civil Division. Jody Hunt announced its first ever enforcement actions. Against two. Oh groups that facilitated hundreds of millions of rebel calls per month. The Department is seeking court approval to stop the organizations from operating which include to Arizona based companies toll-free toll free deals dot com SL retail and their owner operators plus New York defendants global voice calm Global Telecommunication Services K.. It Telecom mm-hmm and they're owner operator the DOJ's has the company is served gateways per fraudulent cooperators and get paid for facilitating the calls and then passing them into the regular US telecommunications communications network using digital voice over IP technology. The European Parliament voted five hundred. Eighty two forty in favor of the resolution on a common common charger for Mobile Radio Equipment. Lawmakers now have until July to adopt an act related to the charger harmonization directive from twenty fourteen or introduce introduce a similar legislative measure. The resolution hopes the adoption of a common charger will cut down on waste and warns against fragmentation in the wireless charging space as well and finally apple's web team published a proposal on geared hub to standardize the format of a one time passcode sent over. SMS used in two factor authentication authentication. The format was Sunday to lineups amass one for human verification with the code and also the confirmation of what website scented the second lane would have the site url and the code preceded by a pound sign. The goal is to have browsers and messaging. APPs recognize the domain automatically from the message then extract the code owed to complete the lugging without user interaction. The proposal claims that feedback from Google has been positive with Google product manager. Stevenson F. and software engineer Sam Goto providing feedback in Development Tech News of the day subscribe to daily Tech News. Show DOT DOT com. You can find show notes links to all headlands Peres bomb. I'm Sarah Lane. Thank you for listening to have a nice weekend next time.

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Covering the State of Our Union (with Jake Tapper)

Stay Tuned with Preet

1:20:12 hr | 6 months ago

Covering the State of Our Union (with Jake Tapper)

"From cafe. Welcome to stay tune. I'm pre-. Perahera. I WanNa live in a world where if the President says something that is critical of journalist or anyone everybody cares. Because if the president is the president whoever it is he or she may be. But he now the only conclusion I can read. Is that it's just noise. So that nobody even cares anymore. That's Jake. Tapper. He's the host of the CNN shows the lead and State of Union. In addition to his on air work, Jake is a prolific writer. His Two thousand twelve book. The outpost is a wrenching Lee detailed account of a devastating battle of Ghanistan. It's recently been adapted into an acclaimed feature film of the same name. Jake I discussed the almost two decade conflict and if Ghanistan the importance of combative interviews and his criticism of New York Governor, Andrew Cuomo's covid nineteen, response. That's coming up. Stay tuned. Let's get to your questions. Question comes in an email from lane who writes your pre I I love your podcast. Thanks Lane. Secondly I'm concerned that trump signaled yesterday regarding gylain maxwell that his comment that he quote wishes her well and quote was code for don't reveal anything and I will pardon you is that possible it would be so disgusting if true, is there any way to prevent it? I E take the case to the states of New York, and Florida where trump does not have pardon power. Thanks so much I would really appreciate your insight best regards lane. Well, I think your instinct is exactly right on. And lots of people will join you in assessing that. That's exactly what trump was doing. I just wish well, frankly I've met her numerous times over the years especially since I lived in. Palm Beach in. Palm Beach but I wish her well that he was sending a message as he's done in the past with respect to other cases that if you keep your mouth shut and take care of yourself and take care of me, then maybe there'll be some benefit for you in the future. You'll recall he did sort of that thing with Roger Stone he tweeted openly during the pendency of the Roger Stone case that stone was being have these words in front of me was being a brave and courageous by keeping his mouth shut and not spilling the. Beans Roger himself seemed to acknowledge that he understanding of what might happen to him if he didn't in his words turn on the president which he did not. So this is another example of Donald trump sort of thumbing his nose at how the operation of justice should unfold in the normal traditional matter norms are observed because he doesn't observe them because even for Donald, trump it's a little odd to be taking time at the presidential podium to wish well, someone who has been charged with something as serious as the southern district of New York has charged with. The sex trafficking of young girls some people have pointed out that comes in stark contrast to the kinds of public statements. He's made about other people. It took a long time for Donald Trump in the same week to make any acknowledgement at all about the passing of civil rights hero John Lewis. And he didn't even bother to go pay his respects. At the same time with the Specter d'alene Maxwell saying he wishes her well, which I think further supports the theory that he's trying to be nice to her a nice about her. In the hopes that if she does have information that's damaging to the president or his associates that you'll keep that to herself. Now, one interesting issue on the timing is this. The Maxwell case has just begun. There won't be a trial at any point in the near future and it is possible that trump out of office by the time there's a conclusion to that case. So depending on what the circumstances are if there is some possibility that Maxwell has damaging information to the president or associates of his if he ends up leaving office by January twentieth of next year. He loses the ability to pardon her so that'll be an interesting thing to watch I also think. That controversial, some of his prior pardons and commutations have been I think really any kind of clemency especially in advance of a conviction. For Elaine, Maxwell would really top all of those in terms of controversy and criticism negatively. Trump himself has not made the allegation with spectrum maxwell that she's been treated unfairly like he did with Roger Stone and Michael Flynn and the charges are a lot more serious than the charges in those other cases. So I never say the Donald Trump is above anything and he's proven himself not to be but I think any kind of clemency for Jillian Maxwell given the charge and if they're to be proved. would be a bridge too far. Astra whether the states of New York and Florida could do something about it. I I. Don't know what investigations are taking place in those states. I. Don't know evidence. They have I. don't know what the statue of limitations issues are in those states I haven't researched it but yes, you're correct that a state prosecutors decided to bring a case against Lane Maxwell and successfully prosecuted her for some crimes. Those would not be pardonable or commutable by president trump. You saw an effort to do that. That has not been fully successful on the Parsi Sivan's with respect to Paul Manafort. So, we'll have to see. This question comes in an e mail format who writes, Hey, pre love the show and cafe insider as well. I'm a law student from Oregon currently interning for the DOJ prior to my remote three L. Year I've been surprised to see that US as do a lot of civil work particularly in immigration what are the roles of the US attorney's for the various districts in civil matters and to civil USA's ever transition to the criminal side and vice versa thanks Matt, fouts. We'll Matt I'm glad you asked the question because it gives me an opportunity to brag about one of the most well kept secrets at the attorney's office in the southern district and it many was tourneys offices and within the Department of Justice. So my office had about depending on the time two hundred and twenty assistant us attorneys, and while a lot of the attention gets focused on the criminal prosecutions and all the criminal cases there were. About one, hundred, sixty, five, criminal USA's and about fifty five Civil Air USA. So that's a pretty large group of folks when the biggest divisions the country and they do a lot of amazing impressive work in one of the great pleasures of being the attorney having served as line assistant in the criminal division is I got to know the women on the civil side and incredibly impressed by their work their contributions in mentioned a few of them. So on the affirmative side, the civil division does investigations and cases in the area of civil rights. We pursued a lot of cases with respect to enforcement of the Americans with disabilities act in fact I. Think this week marks the thirty, th anniversary of passage of that act, and I remember very well the twentieth anniversary of the passage of that act. We undertook a very big program to make sure that restaurants in New York within the district were complying with the Ada. You may have heard about or read about our civil rights work with respect to rikers island a civil case that we brought and also criminal cases we brought against correction officers who violated the civil rights and caused the deaths of inmates at rikers island. Those cases, the criminal cases were done jointly by our civil division in our criminal division, holding those people accountable and bringing justice to the families of the victims. We also commenced an investigation, a very massive one of conditions of housing run by the New York City Housing Authority which ended up resulting in a very huge settlement with the city and also something I'm very proud. Of at, least in our office, we start to do affirmative civil cases relating to financial institutions and fraud at financial institutions were criminal cases did not seem to be appropriate or we're not going to be possible to bring. We did those kinds of things as well, and then on the defensive side, their civil division lawyers who represent agencies of the government when they are sued by individuals are or other organizations they're deeply involved in freedom of Information Act Litigation to deeply involved in national security law. So there are a million things at the Civil Division folks do which people should be proud of and I wish it got more attention. And so as you think about the kind of you want to do in the future civil division is great opportunity. Ask. Your question to. Of Transition to the criminal side and vice versa yeah. It happens from time to time there have been people who have spent a number of years in the civil division want to try something different got a taste for it perhaps when they were doing criminal trials in the civil rights area. And so they move over to the criminal side doesn't happen. So frequently in the other direction for some reason, but thanks for your question. This question comes into tweet from Ben Claus, who handles at loose rooster, the name, and it's a question in reference to some of the bill bar testimony from this week about the consequences of removing Jeff Berman STN Y. and loose rooster tweets at proper. Is it true that quote? This is a quote from Bill Bar anybody familiar with the DOJ knows that removing the component head isn't going to have any effect on any pending investigation close quote Hashtag ask pre. That's an interesting question. A couple of other people have asked including a journalist when they heard the testimony. I tend to agree with bill bar in ordinary circumstances during ordinary times and I'll tell you why I give that caveat in a moment. I've always found it interesting that some people have the view. The just because you're move the United Attorney or you move a DA remain head of the Civil Division with a criminal division at main justice that some sensitive investigation that has been pursued by line assistance for a long period of time or even a prosecution that's underway charges already having been brought that somehow the removal of the head of the office is going to cause that case to evaporate doesn't work that way you know deadlines get set cases have their own dynamic in their own momentum and judges expect proceedings to continue apace because remember. It's not the US attorney who's doing the cases. I wasn't the one going to the banks and asking them for their documents. I wasn't the one who is on the street doing interviews. We're going to the grand jury I presided over the office and led the office, but it's line agents line prosecutors who worked together in tandem to develop the cases. The understanding is you know, for example, when I started on August thirteenth two, thousand nine, I inherited thousands of cases they didn't stop. I didn't call an all hands meeting and say, okay Tell me about the hundred cases that were working on. That are very important and let me think about which thirty five cases I'm going to end and close because I feel like it it's not how it works. It's not how a professional office works the only political appointees, the person at the top but everyone else the staff lawyers are career public servants, some of whom have been there for very long time. So they have their own momentum, they have their own energy they have their own time line, which is why by the way when there was this whole controversy about the firing Of. Jim Komi. People legitimately said, well, I don't know what that was going to get the president because again it's a component head who doesn't necessarily launch the investigations or advanced the investigations, overseas investigations and a replacement for Jim Komi would reasonably continue investigations that were going on. Now the reason I give the caveat is we're not necessarily in normal times and we have seen by the way with respect to the work of Bob Muller that a change in leadership the change in who was overseeing those cases responsible for those cases has worked a substantial change in how those cases move forward. In both the case of Roger, stone and the case of Michael Flynn cases brought by the mother team have been undone in significant ways. Because Bob Mueller is no longer in charge of those cases. They've gone to the US Attorney's Office for the District of Columbia and Bill Bar has been able to reassert his control and command over those cases because there's no longer special counsel to contend with. So in the abstract is a general matter in professional offices cases continue in weird rare circumstances some of which we're seeing now there's an argument that maybe they won't. If. Implicit in your questions what's going to go on? Sdn Y? I don't have a concern that the removal of Jeff Birmingham 'cause legitimate good faith investigations to come to an end or cases to come to an end and a very large reason for that is that Jeff Berman stood firm and acquiesced in the firing only after it was clear his deputy Audrey Strauss would be taking over the office. There's continuity I expect cases to continue. I expect if someone at main justice like bill bar tries to interfere tried to influence cases in an illegitimate in bad faith way that will be met with substantial resistance that the public might even find out about it. So the question, thanks for asking it. Stay tuned. There's more coming up right after this. We all shop online for our books for food for clothes, and during these last five months, we have become even more reliant on the virtual marketplace as we've contended with sheltering in place. Online shopping is great but I know we've all seen that Promo Code, Field Taunt US at out if only we had a coupon code. But where to find one. Thanks to honey manually searching for coupon codes is a thing of the past honey is the free browser extension that scours the Internet for Promo codes and applies the best one at finds to your card. Imagine, you're shopping one of your favorite sites. 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That's simplisafe dot com slash preet. Jake Tapper Two thousand twelve book the outpost about the war in. Afghanistan. was recently adapted into a powerful film which you should all see. He joins me today to reflect on the conflict talk through the other pressing political issues on his radar from covid nineteen revisionism to his exhaustion with president trump's twitter attacks. Jake Tapper. Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Great to be here. It's been a long time I. WanNa have you on for a long time I feel like it's a little bit of a turning of the tables. Usually you're the one asking me questions. Now I get to ask you questions are are you ready for that? I guess we'll see. You seem totally unintimidated, which is the correct way to be. So the one thing is you have guests on the show and I feel like, I know some of them pretty well known for a long time and followed you for a long time and we've gotten each other. But then when I have someone on the show I, get a bundle of research and other new things about them. So I I guess I have what you can call the dossier J you. Okay and see now you're starting to worry a little bit while it's this one proves to be reliable while you I'm giving a chance to comment One thing that's interesting about you have a lot of talents obviously journalistic talent writing talent but you also have drawing talent and you show that obviously every week in the state of the cartoon. WanNa talk about that a little bit. But what I didn't realize you have been drawing cartoons for a long time and once upon a time, tell me if I'm correct or not. Your penchant for drawing you suspended from school. Well, it's a I think didn't get suspended per se per say when someone says I didn't get suspended per se. Well, it's an interested teacher. They didn't say what had happened. I have talked about this before publicly but my friends and I were. mischief-makers. I. Think is a nice way to put it and. We concocted away to come up with a mad magazine style fold in in the back of the yearbook. I, drew it and designed it and then a bunch of my co conspiritors got it in the yearbook and you know faked a payment for it and all that stuff. You know it was probably like one hundred and twenty dollars for a full page ad or something like that and when you folded it in, it was It formed a a visual of particular appendage of the of the male, a male anatomy. knows. and Said The ear and there was a there was an instruction for readers and it said for all the best. That's what all the bs either so I don't know what's wrong with. Either knows why that's a problem. Yeah. One would hope that that wouldn't be are you less mischievous today? Yeah definitely. I you know they the teachers found out about it. The day of graduation that's that's when they found out. So we weren't suspended because there was nothing to suspend as from, but we did get in trouble. We did not get our diplomas. That day with everybody else we marched in graduation, but we just got empty Naga hide folders and we we had to do community service issuing apology was a whole. It was a whole thing. And I would not recommended and now the yearbook that high school and told our of my alma mater are are Assiduously checked every year by the faculty advisors of the of the school. It was a it was you know as scandal and it's kind of embarrassing when you think about it. I. Didn't really have much to be revealing about, but do you regret it if you could do it over again, you would do it again. It's a nice. It's a funny story. No I mean you know I'm not I'm fifty one. Now I'm not eighteen. So I. If my fifty one year old brain was in that eighteen year old body I do it again. Some wasn't worth it. But you know I I wasn't fifty one at the time I was you know felt Diana Lot to rebel about and I hated authority and this and that and Now that that quality ended up serving me fine suspicion and distrust of authority but. Probably hopefully, I channel it in a more constructive way today I think that's probably right. So I wanNA talk about something that I know that you're proud of and a lot of people are talking about and that is the movie The outpost based on a book that you wrote some years ago congratulations on the success I've watched it. It's really It's really compelling. It's really really well done directed by Rod Lurie. Are you are you pleased with how it came out? I am I think rod did a really good job rod has done a lot of very political newbies the contender. and has very strong political opinions and those are not in the movie which which I was very happy about because the is is not political either the book is just about these men and women in this one location and their families and what they what they went through because we and our leaders sent them there and we sent them as we did and You know you can apply whatever politics on that you want. You can take whatever you want to learn from it but I think. Rod Did those men and women of a real service by having the movie, Hugh. So closely to the facts, there are few liberties taken here and there, but generally speaking it is true and by merging the audience watching the film in combat up was getting in what it was like in a way that I don't think has been done as effectively as as rod does it since Steven Spielberg at the beginning of Saving Private Ryan when you feel like you're actually storming the beaches of? Normandy is everybody yes sir okay. We're making great progress Aaron Cam Dash. Still. Got A lot of work to do. Our outpost still talkative insurgence. See I noticed. How do we do odd jobs? Stay safe. We need to keep a good relationship with the locals. Respect. Keeps US safe. So I just think yeah, I'm really I'm very pleased I think Reid. Did a great job casting crew did an amazing job as these things go I mean in what I changed one or two things here nurture but. Given all the things that could go wrong with taking true book. Film I feel. Really. Lucky. One of the unfortunate things about the pandemic and they're so many of them is that the movie is not going to be able to be appreciated for most people on a big screen and and this is the kind of film but I, think you want to see on the big screen. So that's unfortunate. I think that's true. But once it's once it safe again, I imagined why have no idea but I mean you know perhaps there would be a rereleasing studios in in theaters I. Don't I don't know but if you have a decent TV. I tried I tried to use it as an excuse to get a ninety, six inch television my wife was. Not even for Tapper I wanNA, ask you about Afghanistan. Simple non-complex subject by way back when you said something that I thought was interesting and I want you to explain what you meant. You said, we haven't fought a nineteen year war. We fought a one year war nineteen times. Would you mean by them? Well, there's just so little institutional memory. I went out to I set out to write a book about the history of his outposts combat outpost Keating and. People you know in in two thousand nine had no idea why their observation. Post was named. After you know Fritschi. And in fact, when the army did its report on. Its after action report after the big battle, they didn't even refer to observation post Fritschi bidding even pronounce it correctly I think they call it like for French or something like that people just don't even know there's no knowing that those are small little details like how to pronounce the name of your observation posts but. They don't know there just isn't the history of while this guy in the valley is reliable in this person isn't and this guy could be helped in. This is what I mean and I don't blame them I don't blame the soldiers. It's just this. It's the the way that the situation is set up. That the army has a certain mindset and. The mindset is we can do whatever you tell us to do. Tell us what to do. We'll do. Which is great and Admiral, but it also means that it's difficult to. Acknowledge mistakes it's difficult to. Step away from decisions that were made that were bad. Because the environment changed in two thousand six when they set up the outpost outpost Keating the situation in Afghanistan and in that valley was very different than it was in two, thousand, eight, two, thousand, nine. Abbott. But there is a reluctance to shut things down. And that's what I mean. It's just it's not. It's as if it isn't one coherent whole for the whole time, it's ad hoc decision making by whoever is in charge any given year. And I just think that that leads to a lot of. Myopic, vision and short term decisions, and this is how it operates and Agana Emma criticizing the many women who do this. But just as a as a person who you know became an expert on this one combat outpost. I mean I think you have to ask why would I be like the World Authority on Combat Outpost Keating. I've never I've never been there it was destroyed. A couple of days after I heard about it for the first time. I. Mean there should be a way to. For somebody to have more institutional knowledge about what works and what doesn't work. Can. You Describe Combat Outpost Keating and there's early in the movie that sort of makes you understand why is a really dangerous place as the soldiers there look at the mountains. Well, and that's based on real the. Based on a real experience that Sakaba Keating was at the bottom of three steep mountains really Steve. Mounts. Also not in the movie, but in real life right next to rivers as well and it was fat fourteen miles from the border with Pakistan, very porous border where a lot of bad guys live and so it was just about as dangerous place as there was because the enemy had the high ground and the scene in the in the book where they I sorry scene in the film where they land at night and specifically on the night where there's very little moon shining light on anything matt. That is how the men and women would would go into the outpost at night. And they would you the next morning they'd get up and they'd see the stunningly horrifying. Image of this panoramic view of like Oh my God we're surrounded by the high ground, which is obviously the worst thing you want if you're in a military situation because your enemy has all of the advantages and you have none right. So why does one build an outpost in the valley like? This this is one of the things that when I set out to write the book I, that was the big mystery because everybody in two thousand nine was like we don't know why this outpost was built here, and so I went to find out why and the answer is in two thousand six George W Bush had changed the mission in Afghanistan it was no longer. Just going after. The Taliban and al-Qaeda, it was about. The Nation of Afghanistan and the way that they were doing that was setting up these little outposts all over North Eastern. Afghanistan, at that point colonel now general retired general Nicholson is the one who put a bunch of these little alcohol over and why were they little they were little because most of the troops that were deployed in Iraq not Afghanistan. So they had to be small little camps and then why were they at the bottom of the mountain? Well, because in that part of Afghanistan, you're either at the top of the mountain or you the bottom of the mountain because it's mountainous and. The only way to get to the camp and to resupply the camp was by road because once again, almost all the helicopters were in Iraq not Afghanistan. So you have big decisions being made by the President George W Bush and then later Barack Obama and big decisions being made by the secretaries of defense whether runs, boulder gates or whomever about what's priority what's not a priority? Where where do we send our troops where he's under helicopters and that ends meaning this outpost is small and it has to be by the road and that's that's why. So. Why did you choose to write this book and the time you did it's actually kind of a weird story My son was born October second two, thousand nine. And the outpost was attacked October third two, thousand, nine, and some. Point during that week in that haze of you know my wife just having given birth to our second child our first son I, and only son in the recovery room at the hospital with her there was some point moment where I was holding my son and watching the news and hearing about eight other sons taken from this earth at the same time that I just gotten mine. And there was something poignant in that moment and I wanted to know who these men were. I wanted to know why a were at this incredibly indefensible place and I kind of just waited for somebody in the media to investigate it and they never did so. I did and that's how it happened and. The only reason like I kind of even told the story a other than the fact that it's true is because. I initially confronted a lot of skeptical troops that wanted to why I cared why I wanted to tell the story. And at one point, one of I remember a guy who brandon kill team named Cricket Cunningham Creek Cunningham was just very skeptical. Why do you WanNa do this and I told him that story is told you and It's God's honest truth. That's what happened. and. That was kind of the moment that I realized it. And ended at one a convert cricket cooperated with the book. So it ended up becoming you know this obsession in his mission for me. So on October third of two, thousand, nine to get folks a sense. Am I right that there were only about fifty some odd soldiers at combat outpost Keating when they were attacked by the Taliban, fifty, three, fifty resume. There were fifty three US troops to Latvian troops as part of the coalition and then some Afghan troops. But the Afghan troops were worthless. They ran away the laughing troops were great they helped out but it was basically this these fifty three troops in the bottom, the valley against somewhere between three hundred and four hundred insurgents. What was the prospect of survival for the soldiers in that camp have precarious was it for them? It's amazing that any of them made it out. Balanced. Didn't have air support close by by the time air support. Got There. The insurgents had set up in such a way that they were firing upon the helicopters. It's called enemy in the wire. They got in camp. They are in the camp walking around as it as it is depicted in the film I mean they. It is literally amazing that any of them survived much less that forty five of them survived as you know of the fifty three but it was the deadliest day for the US in Afghanistan that year and it was Remarkable I mean the only reason that they survived in addition to air support, which is which was on huge, but it came relatively late and the only reason they survived is because of the incredible courage shown by these men fighting for their survival and every one of the guys who was killed that day. was killed doing something to help their fellow soldiers, their brothers, every single one of them whether it was supplying resupplying, ammunition or trying to return fire every single one of them died heroically and It's just a remarkable story and you know forty five survive but a lot of them are still in bad shape you. In fact, one of the things that struck me was how many people both living and dead received received honors from the military and I think it's the case and it says in a caption the movie. That was the first time in fifty years of two medals of honor were awarded in the course of one battle. For. Living recipients. That's true. There was a time the Blackhawks Fan Mogadishu. Incident, there were two medals of honor for that battle, but they were both awarded posthumously. This was the first time since Vietnam the to living troops from the same battle had been awarded the Medal of honor, and it really is just a testament to how roic everyone was and the the truth of the matter. Is there any number of those guys who got who could have gotten the medal of honor based on the definition of what it's given for when you? You know when you you? Right? It's basically if you know that you could die you are likely to die and you do something anyway. And rochet deserved it and ty Carter deserve that and there are a number of other guys who'd probably deserved it as well. When you talk to the people who survived the soldiers who survived that attack? What's their mindset? How do they feel about the position that were put in? How do they feel about the military how they feel about the war effort? While they're forty five of them. Right. who were there that day not to mention others who were you know local Ford Operating Base and you know their opinions about everything run run the gamut of politics and emotion. Guy. You know I think that they are soldiers and you know I mean one of amazing things about it is that after the outpost was attacked and the battle happened in October, they still had to serve out the rest of their tour and sound like they got to go home they had to. Serve the rest of the tour until May or June of two, thousand ten. So I mean, I don't think there was a lot of time to process what they went through A lot of them have survivor's guilt. which is a very real thing. Why did I make it an end my buddies didn't. A lot of them. deal with it in different ways There's a character in the movie at Faulkner. You might remember him. He's at the beginning of the movie. He. Smoking. Hash. While on guard duty and then he's one of the heroes when Josh Heart and Chris Griffin. Go on the mission to try to save the guy's stuck in the in the Humvee faulkners. The only one who makes it back Griffin and heart did not faulkner was a real guy. He Oh, deed. He was discharged from the military and because of his problems with drugs and he he adid before the year anniversary of the attack. So I mean you know That's the only one of those guys like that that I know that that has odid but a lot of the other guys are having. A rough time divorces, various levels of self medication. Are doing fine I mean I should say, I mean. Some of them that I'm in touch with her you know seemed to be thriving and have our team to be doing really really well. But so it runs the gamut really but I mean, I've never really asked any of them. Are You mad at the army. Are You mad at McChrystal? Who was the General Time War War Obama was the president of time or whoever I'm. For me it was just more about like what happened to you, and then when I talked to them, how are you doing? Doesn't even make you angry about the army and how they were treated and what position they were putting. It makes me angry. Yeah it makes me very angry. It makes me angry but one of the things that I feel like I feel like a lot of this book is for me is was just opening my eyes about how decisions made in Washington end up having real world consequences to men and women. whether it's just about going into you know particularly. Rough area of Afghanistan or not providing. Full protection. It makes me very angry now that I know a lot of these men and women and their families it makes me you know I know these kids at won't don't have dads it does it but it's not like angry at Bush or Obama or It's just more like. I'm Kinda impact makes me angry at all of it just the United States. Of America not mad at America but just like the way that our. Decisions are made about putting these. Very brave people in harm's way like the entire system of it of. Whether it's members of the House or Senate voting on these missions or The Pentagon and how they make decisions, presidents how they make decisions. Hamid Karzai who was the president of Afghanistan at the time and how he made decisions just the whole thing, the public, the media, all of it it just makes me feel like none of us are. Worthy of what these men and women are willing to do for us and. and. Most of us don't even pay attention and I certainly include myself in that up until. I was kind of radicalized by watching what happened with combat up Keating. I was even though I was a White House reporter for ABC News I. Wouldn't say I was firmly paying attention to every single development in Afghanistan or Iraq So an you know but more than angry really pretty makes me too sad. Event just a couple of days after the battle of October two, thousand nine as you mentioned already, we blew the whole place up raised it to the ground yep. because. There was no point. There was no point. Look the guys who came in. Then, colonel now General Randy George, and then lieutenant colonel. Colonel Up Brad Brown, they came into their command. Wanting to close down cop keating in a number of the other outposts that had been set up in two thousand six they had no strategic purpose It's what people in the military referred to as a self licking ice cream cone meaning it's only there to exist for itself. That's you know that's all it accomplishes. They were not making any headway in convincing the locals to lay down their arms and not join the insurgency even though there had been some achievements along those lines in maybe two thousand seven. Hundred different group and a different set of circumstances. So yeah, they blew it all up. And that's one of the one of the ways to look at the Afghans war not that nothing's been accomplished in Afghanistan of course, stuff of course, many things have been accomplished but but one of the ways to understand the Afghanistan war is to look at this one outpost and what had been done and why these men had been asked to die and the truth of the matter is they weren't asked to die for nothing would they ended up dying for them but for their brothers and for survival and that's not nothing that's lot but. Are we worth. Of the sacrifice was the mission we sent them on, were that sacrifice and I think that's I think that's an open question. In other related to Afghanistan, that makes a lot of people angry I suspect based on some things you've said, makes you angry also, it's been a few weeks now since we heard reports of the intelligence community believing that there were Russian bounties being placed on US and other servicemembers. In Afghanistan and I gotTa tell you I don't hear a lot about that. It's one of those things that seems to have. Faded from from the news. Why is that? How do you feel about that and and what are your thoughts on the underlying story? Well, I did a did a commentary at the end of state of the Union about this earlier this week and I mean I can understand why there haven't been many new developments in journalism part of this because. You know in times has done an amazing job reporting the story. which other media outlets including CNN have have masked, which is you know there is this. Know the US intelligence got intercept said suggested some payment from GRU, which is the Russian Military Intelligence Unit Aguilar, account going to taliban-linked accounts, and they think that that's part of a bounty But beyond beyond whether or not it was part of a a bounty. It's just pretty much understood that the Russians are helping the Taliban with money and arms. So it's almost. To be frank kind of beside the point whether or not this particular piece of intelligence is. One hundred percent agreed upon with the intelligence community, which is which is not. But the very fact that the Russians are helping the men who are trying to kill our service members and Britishers. Members is fairly undisputed in intelligence article so. I have to be honest. I. Was stunned that the President did at least for interviews last week. And I didn't hear one question about any of us not even just like have you made a determination on the intelligence or the larger point I just made, which is whether or not the bounty stories. True. The Russians are helping the Taliban, have you confronted? Putin about this why haven't you confront Putin about this etc you why would you invite Russia to be to rejoin the G. Seven become the g eight again knowing this I can't understand it. Let's because people have to ask about person woman man. Camera TV by the way I have that memorized now. Person Woman Man Camera Cheating. But you know look at the doctor who interviewed him wants to talk about covert fine. But there are other people in there who asked other questions and one of them is Chris Wallace someone I wanna I wanna read a tweet of yours Chris Wallace has been apparently suggesting that Joe Biden is uncomfortable coming on his show. A competing Sunday morning show for a sit down and then you you tweeted quote speaking back to the story speaking of sit down you meaning Chris Wallace had an interview with the president and you ask about mean tweets about you and not about until reports about GRU bounties against US and UK servicemembers some people were surprised when you agreed. To this interview to sit down with me what are you gonNA ask. Especially, because of some of the mean tweets that you've said about a Mike Wallace Wannabe Nasty and obnoxious I will tell you after that one, my son Peter who? Called and he said nasty now obnoxious maybe. And response from Chris Wallace No, and I probably shouldn't have sent that tweet but I do get an idea get emotional about this. I do get angry about. The cavalier way that politicians and people in the news media act about our troops and I, do it upsets me Annette. Probably was emotion talking in that tweet but but it did make me mad because look Chris asked a number of tough questions against the president. It's not like that interview was comparable to. Other ones I could name that are. Ridiculous it Chris did it. He did an interview, but he also did spend a great deal of time relatively talking about how the president thinks. He's mean thinks he's nasty. And? Spend number you spend time talking about how he's actually really tough when he was tough on Komi and he's on and it's just like This is one of the things we we are people in the news media and I'm certainly not immune to this. We're all so focused on ourselves and it just really rubbed me the wrong way that nobody asked about this when we're talking about. Service members who have been killed, and there's specifically one I e D attack that went on in two thousand and nineteen were three Marines were killed. And the families of the Marines are you know they want answers? Is it true? Is that what happened? And there's no, we don't know if it's true or not but it is being investigated by the military and I just thought it was deserving question and I just thought that the preening. So and so's afraid to go on my show Blah I mean like you know I could do that every day about trump trump trump hasn't given me an interview since two, thousand, sixteen it's kind of stupid I mean politicians do interviews and it's based on a whole number of factors and it's not really the point. The point is, what are you doing when you get an opportunity like that and? I was just really upset that nobody. And if one of them had asked I, I would I don't think I would commentary at all it just one of them had and it's not to single out. Chris I mean, there are a number of people who didn't abuse with President. and it could have been any one of them and just why but what's what's the answer? You know some of these people are not no novice journalists and it seems to be an important story what what is the reason why some things are not asked about you have the theory? Is it common? I don't know and look you could go again it probably wasn't fair. If you could go into anti any interview with a politician and find incredibly important subjects that the interviewer didn't ask about because of time like if I had an interview with the President Right. Now, I certainly would ask about the rush abandoned story but I might spend most of the rest of the time just talking about covert and that would mean I wouldn't talk about poverty. Income inequality or hunger in America or or racist doesn't mean that I don't care about those issues. So it's not really super fair of me to have done that. But like I said, I get very emotional about the fact that I don't think we in the news media and politicians in general talk enough about the fact that we're still losing troops in these wars one of which has been going on now for nineteen years and almost and I just the fact that he was asking about a mean tweets against him and not about I mean that's just bothered me but I shouldn't I normally don't say anything and I shouldn't have. But I did in that that's the reason that's the reason. So. Before we started taping the show, we were talking about other things relating to the president how he sometimes lashes out at particular journalists he lashed out at you and you boasted as a tweet. Last. Night in which you said, honestly, the second worst thing about the president attacking me on twitter after the sad statement made about his focus and how wrong he is about the pandemic is that I didn't even know what happened until three hours later no one called no-one emailed. It's just noise and I should point out that we're recording this on Monday July twenty seven that happened on Sunday July twenty sixth do want to comment on what it feels like to be attacked criticized by the president and what it means that you didn't find out about it for three hours was a strange he's attacked me a few times He certainly doesn't go after me with the the anger. and Vitriol that he goes after others especially women of Color in the White House Correspondence Association who challenged him directly. he really seemed to have a problem with them but I, mean it was it was strange. It was a I did an interview with testings are Admiral Brett, your Wa and I think it's fair to say it was a fairly tough interview because I think it's the it's the biggest mystery going on why is the United States government with all of its resources not doing every single thing you can do to identify nice like the which would mean widespread surveillance testing all over the country. Harvard says, it needs to be about three and a half to five million tests a day as opposed to the current number, which is significantly up it's still only about seven, hundred, eight, hundred, thousand today. So you do one of these interviews and then always whether it's a Democrat or a Republican interviewed some Flunky Association or twitter feed or whatever. We'll try to frame it the best way they can, and in this case, some I never even heard of this twitter feed. TV news HQ or something like that. Had some dishonest framing. About Joie correcting me it was just stupid and I didn't care but then I just you know I was just lying in bed about ten thirty and just surfing. Twitter and I'm online all the time I mean I have my phone next to me all time and emails all the time. So I'm not like disconnected from the world I should be more I. Wish I could be more. But I just couldn't believe in all of a sudden I'm like, Oh, my God wait the president re tweeted that kind of dishonest framing tweet and attacks CNN fake news, Blah Blah Blah, whatever it was. And I want to be attacked it. It doesn't even matter just comes with the territory and and. Whatever it's it's fun. They pay us. You know we get attacked by the president's and but plenty of other people too. I just thought it was strange. The no one told me. Literally no I had no idea. no-one re tweeted to me nobody texted me nobody emailed me Unisys during primetime Sunday night people awake people saw nobody cared. That's the thing I want to live in a world where if the president of the United States attacks a journalist people care. Oh. What is he saying? Is he behaving indecently as the reporter? Wrong. Whatever that's interesting. I didn't I didn't know you were going in that direction. I thought the part of what you're about to say was. You know maybe it's not terrible to live in a world in which responsible president who attacks people by name given the bully pulpit. He has that it's kind of a nice thing that after three and a half four years people pay that not so much attention and it makes life more livable. Well, I think both are true I. Mean my point is that like fear radically I wanna live in a world where if the president says something that is critical of a journalist or anyone everybody cares because the president is the president whoever it is he or she may bidding. But he now I the only conclusion I can reach. Is that it's just noise. So that nobody even cares anymore like if you had told me. Ten years ago twenty years ago. There's GonNa. Be a point where we have a president who attacks you and nobody cares. Nobody I don't think anybody's written the story about it on like you know the bar for some of the. Media Organizations for a store I mean people will written stories about me on the following somebody on twitter. So. It doesn't have to be particularly import literally they have. So it doesn't have to be particularly important I haven't even seen an if anybody did that maybe that will change by the time. I get off the phone with you today but but I mean it just it's so weird that his criticism is now. So common and his Anger in grievance is just Like the home of radiator that you're just used to. That doesn't even bother you anymore. You can sleep right through it. I just find it remarkable that I mean I'm obviously alarmed primarily by the fact that the president is not doing everything, he can according to health experts. To identify, isolate the virus, and that's the most important thing about his tweet is that he's wrong. Like yes, testing is up but it's not where it needs to be and I did a whole twitter. Thank thread about that. But then my second note was like man I can't believe it. I. Mean I, hear about it. If people were mad at me. All the time Oh so and so do an interview with you because he's mad about the last interview or. I mean am fairly well behaved so I don't hear about things like this too often, but I mean in my personal life but I mean this was just I mean don't you think it's just bizarre that the president would attack me and I wouldn't even hear about it for three hours I'm wondering this has something to do with other things that are going on the fact that to a greater degree is the president becoming. Irrelevant. Is He becoming an aside? Is he less capable of commanding attention? Are People tuning him out and it's interesting what you said before there's two sides to the coin each of those things, right. So on the one hand when the president attacks particular journalists like you or when the president makes some sort of racist remark or he says something else that sounds like we're towards fascism on the one hand maybe it's a good thing. That people sort of ignoring him and even people in government are not paying attention to knock down to carry out his orders, his wishes the other hand are we just becoming to used to it? which is itself a huge problem? Right that you have a president saying these things forget about the insults towards particular journals but other things that are much more important. No disrespect. The. People are just sort of ignoring them. Right? You know you're you're right I mean, and that might be the other part of this, which is let me say I do not think it is important to president trump attack at all. I. Think of his stupid trifle like that. You know that kind of thing I don't think it's an important issue. COVID nineteen is an important issue people. Being killed in in protests or what's going on in cities like Portland or Austin or Chicago whatever that's those are important issues. And maybe that is the reason why nobody cares about him saying fake news anymore or whatever may maybe. Maybe just the fact that obviously I'm right about the fact that testing is not where it needs to be, and he's so obviously wrong that nobody even pays any attention to it or maybe the fact that I remember a year or two ago listening to a disagreement between two people they were talking about whether president trump was the worst president in the history of the United States and one of the point I was listening I was not participating in this conversation, but one of the arguments being made was. No because. His decisions hadn't really cost lives in the way that previous presidents whether you want to I mean there's any Ho-. How whole host of presidents you could talk about whose decisions or inactions or proclivity for war or whatever cost? Tens if not hundreds of thousands of lives. But now. His decision making has resulted in. A body count in terms of whether you WANNA give him credit for people. Loved as it would have been two million. The death toll would have been two million There was projections. Yes. That death toll was if we had done absolutely nothing. Would have been two million, and now we have done what health experts say is not enough and the death holes right now as of this moment one, hundred, forty, five, thousand or something like that. So I mean maybe now the fact that like there is an obvious direct line from president trump's decision making and results that have cost people, their lives, some of those decisions by the way good ones in terms of. Getting ventilators up to speed although it's unclear what the medical community thinks about Ben leaders right now when it comes to Kobe but some good decisions and then some so agree decisions when it comes to wearing a mask and and. and. The testing inadequacy. So maybe that's part of a to. Do you think Dr Fauci is deserving of criticism. Anybody can be deserving of criticism I have criticized him I. Mean I'm not as protector I think that He. has done everything he could based on the. Scientific knowledge at the time to try to save lives while also maintaining his. standing in the government and being able to push for things to be done. So I mean I see it that way but you know sheriff some of the things he said which were you know things that everybody was saying at the beginning in terms of masks don't really make a difference or whatever. You know proved to be wrong but as I think generally he's I don't have any question my mind that he's a force for good and been trying to save lives. Do you disagree? No, I don't would I find upsetting. In case after case is the taking of somebody who is widely believed to be good intention and acting in good faith in a nonpartisan way in their field. And then when they disagree with the President or make the person look bad in any particular way, they get swift boated and I often put together these two men. who were not alike in many ways except for the ways in which I described and they are Robert Muller and Anthony Fauci whose reputations whereas sterling as you could have and their relative fields in the country in the world in fact, and then they committed the crime of differing with the president a little bit. and. Then criticism was one thing but character assassination and the attacks that we've seen. On. Both of those men most recently most recently Dr Fauci that's very disturbing to me. I think that's a different well and also a difference between criticism. And smearing right I mean the the White House. Officials. In the White House ranging from Navarro to screen, go to whoever put together the Otto file of quotes of counties, some of which were early based on now ing scientific consensus that changed some of which were completely out of context. But ultimately a sheet that was put together to try to discredit him I mean, that's just nuts. Of course, people are not no one's above criticism. No but I mean having a White House apparatus trying to smear him. Guy. Their own guy. Yeah I mean you know and it's but this is where we are. I mean we are in a place where. You know Dansk Gavino was white, house? Deputy. Chief of staff posts. Cartoon. From this fringe cartoonist Ben Garrison. On his facebook page attacking county as a leakers something I don I didn't even fully understand it. Then you had the whole Cunanan thing I mean there's just I've never seen I mean we we're talking about the overton window earlier before we started taping and like the the dislike how how much things change? How much of acceptable conversation conversation changes and the overton window of just batch it crazy conspiracy theories. Just becoming mainstream. Is. Has Been remarkable in the last three or four years. Sinclair. Television. Had some insane. Special? Run where they? Basically, it was a theory that found she had helped create the corona virus. And ultimately I think they've postponed the airing of it only because there was so much bad press but I mean it's just lunacy. So when you say you know should found to be criticized sure you know based on facts but based on just attempts to smear somebody because you don't think they make the president look good or deranged conspiracy theories from like FREAKS NO I don't think that's criticism. From freaks did use of the term. Sticking with covert for second do you think eat this may seem like an odd thing to say but. It's obviously true that everyone in America everyone in the world is thinking about cove it all the time people have lost loved ones people are otherwise. unemployed or harmed, both physically financially emotionally mentally it is obviously the story of our lifetimes and yet. I wonder if you think. People still don't have a full grasp on how terrible it is. In part because. Unlike, some other tragedies like nine eleven. Where fewer people were killed? We don't have the visuals. You don't have cameras in the hospitals and people dying you have the the metric on CNN, another stations showing how many are dead but at some point, every additional thousand deaths. DoesN'T CAUSE PEOPLE TO BE AS disturbed. As you might think, they should be because these things are happening a bit tucked away. Is there anything to that? Is that is silly observation a one hundred no, it's an observation that I've would agree with and I've I've made which is. Look I mean this has to do with any with a lot of things I'm going to do with death. It has to do with you know war our coverage of war. You know if we had if people saw real images of war more. I don't know what the result would be, but people have these images shielded from them. Gun Violence if people had saw. PICTURES AFTER SANDY HOOK Of those twenty kids and six teachers and administrators slaughtered. What might the impact be? I mean what might the from public policy and public opinion perspective and that is definitely true that this story has been very challenging to tell because. Obviously for understandable reasons, hospitals have privacy. Patients have privacy and we don't see what this means. So I can put up a picture of a victim of krona virus but. You don't I still don't know what it looks like if somebody is intimated. Right there on their stomach, they have to shut down their throat, their windpipe rather they're in a medically induced coma. That looks like an this has been going on now since February march so. Yeah I do think. You're right like I mean what's that old? I think it was like Stalin or somebody said something like. I'm going to completely botch this quote, but it's something like five deaths is a tragedy. A million deaths is a statistic something like that. The idea that the bigger the number gets the less able we are to comprehend what that even means. We talking about have some politicians are not just dealing with the crisis but how they're talking about their own performances putting trump aside for a moment, you've taken some issue with the governor of New York Andrew, Cuomo sort of doing I. Don't know if this is the phrase you used but sort of taking a victory lap and you pointed out well, you know what? Thirty, two thousand plus New Yorkers died more than any other area state in the country. Maybe, it's a bit early for them. It's not even close they look. The facts are. What they are and I'm really glad that New York has been able to flatten the curve and I'm really glad that they've gotten their productivity rate down and in really great that they were able. To make improvements and I know the governor Cuomo is popular in New York and I also know that this is an incredible challenge. especially in a city like New York say that is so compressed. So many people on top of each other people travelling on the subway. But that said, there was a twenty four hour period where he was like. He somebody designed a poster with all these little inside jokes about his daughters and the boyfriend and this and that. And he went on Falun. Foul asked him about his dating life and this and that I know you've definitely probably heard this You are well liked among the ladies people knowing that you're single and you think you're good looking in there some people calling themselves chroma sexual they are obsessed with you and wanted to date you wanNA marry you Is that is that changing the way you act at all or bird your kids rubbing in your face or what are they doing? No I enjoy using it selectively certain friends and family settling. And those people were saying good things. It's only because they don't know me Jimmy when they get to know me, they have a much different. NASA chips and the I've found that a little and forget what I thought a bunch of New York for Friends of mine thought it was really inappropriate because New York has to this day the highest by far death rate. Of any state. In the country. I mean it's it's growing unfortunately all over, but it's still not even close I. Mean Florida and Arizona in California is still not even close. And there have been studies and reports about what would have happened if de Blasio and Cuomo acted sooner even just one week. Soon, what would have had? You know there have been investigations by the New Yorker and the New York Times famous conservative publications like the. New. Yorker in the New York Times about how Cuomo de Blasio messed up a lot of. Stuff and the questions about whether or not the order that nursing homes taken people even if they have covid whether that cost lives or not. At all I was saying was look there's no this is not a good time for a victory lap I mean. I know it rubbed a lot of people wrong. Especially Democrats especially New York Democrats, but it's time for humility and. I just I don't think there's any any anything jokey. About it like Haha here's my here's this poster I mean what I mean anyway. So in agreement with you I, think you know we we had a lot of positive. Discussion in the country how California was doing and a lot of praise going to Gavin newsom that has not worked out. So well, you had the governor of Florida Ron to Santa's asking where he's going to get his apology because he did things his own way and there was not a spike that was delayed a little bit and so as you say humility in the face of not knowing what this is GonNa look like not knowing what the second wave will look like if there's going to be one people should just keep your fingers crossed and pray and do what they're supposed to be doing and not crow about anything at this moment. So I I agree with you. Can you imagine if you had lost loved ones in New York and you're thinking to yourself like if they pick up the times and there's a study saying if de Blasio in Cuomo just not had as much inviting that they had just shut everything down a week earlier, seventeen thousand lives have been saved and imagine if it's like one of the. One of those lives was somebody you loved and maybe like a marginal like not not somebody's super old or super unhealthier in somebody with a lot of what they call co morbidity but maybe somebody who was just. One of those really unlucky forty year olds who was healthy or somebody who had a seven year old I mean. It would just crush me and that's one of the things that I think I'm here to do my job is to speak for those people or speak for the family of the three Marines were killed in two, thousand nineteen and just be like. This is we're supposed to be taking this stuff seriously and look I make mistakes and I screw up and sometimes people don't like means sometimes people don't like what I say but I do think this job is important. And you know if we don't do anything with this platform, if it's just about making friends and then then word squander I. Thank. Cast you couple of questions about interview techniques at something that I thought was interesting. Once you said the tougher the question. The more calm the delivery should be. A wise that and be is there ever a time when the delivery should not become? Yeah I mean I mean that mainly in the situation of where you're challenging especially president but somebody in power who's not used to be challenged and also like in the White House press room when I was a White House correspondent. Because I? Think that one of the lessons I learned in the early years of covering Obama was the louder I was the more distracting. It was to the substance of what I was trying to ask about the and the more I was a coming across as though I was a pompous ass as opposed to an earnest journalists trying to ask a question. To legitimately find out an answer which is how I feel even if sometimes I came across the other way and so sometimes like for instance, if you watch the last time, I got the interview president. Trump, which is two, thousand sixteen, and perhaps the last time I'll ever interview him which is when I asked by Judge Curiel and I basically said. If you're challenging judge Curiel because of his race, is that the definition of racism? That was delivered pretty much. took me a long way to get there because he kept interrupting and trying to steamroll but it lasted again and again, and again, which actually I think is a pretty good technique but I had I had to keep going back. But my tone as I recall was fairly calm because the accusation because I was building up to is like aren't you being racist isn't this exactly what racism is which of course it is, but you're invoking his race when talking about whether or not he can do his job I'm building war. Okay. I'm building a wall I'm trying to keep business at Mexico Mexico's fine does nothing he's American. He's a Mexican heritage and he's very proud of it as I am where I come from. You keep talking about Jake. It's a conflict of interest because of Mexican and even the. Republican. Speaker of the House Paul Ryan at the time said that the dictionary definition of racism which it is but I mean I thought the fact that I was asking calmly not like yelling at him. which by the way would be perfectly understandable. Somebody was upset about the president or the the then Republican presidential nominee being racist perfectly understandable. Why somebody would be emotional and ask the question loudly but I thought it was more effective just to sit quietly because then it's about the words and it's about the tone and the substance it's about the substance and the tone. That's generally what I mean sometimes, you have to interrupt especially if it's a cyanide interview, especially, if somebody's you know. Gas lighting changing the subject to this and that, and that's different but I think with very powerful people and very incendiary subjects the less focus on that the interviewer and more on the question the better. Is there a certain kind of guests that you have on and then realize you're never gonNa have him on that then you're never gonNa have them on again because they're not good or because they're not truthful or some other reason. Yeah I mean I don't I'm not going to give you a list because you can always change your mind and who knows what I mean first of all some people are just bad interviews second all you know I see people out there who are just lying I mean public officials who were just lying. Just, blatantly lying. Anybody who thinks that parents are concerned about schools opening? For any reason other than health reasons? Anybody who thinks that you know the people are just scheming to keep close schools closed because they want. To hurt president trump as opposed to we are worried about kids lives and were worried about the fact that if you look at for instance Israel when they reopened schools the virus spread all over again. It just drives me nuts and there are smart. People out there leveling suggestions, Asians and I find it so irresponsible than. It makes me think about whether or not. It's worth giving such a person any airtime at all. Talk for a minute about the literary output from the Tapper family. So we've talked talked about the outpost and you wrote another book some years ago. But I will say as a matter of professional jealousy I. Don't know where you find the time to do it. You also wrote a novel called the Hellfire Club. I did they make it into a TV show now? On, HBO. So you couldn't get the big the big screen for this one. I. It's better as a series. Mark. Smith. Okay Mark Smith revenue is turning it into a TV show. I saw a copy of the pilot. It's awesome. He did really are they are they able to go into production or that has to be delayed We're not. We're. We're not yet. We're not anywhere near that I think after the pilot than if they like it or more scripts or whatever, but no. I I think Hollywood. Is Still shut down pretty much what was more fun and what was more difficult to write the last nonfiction book or the novel? Well, the novels fund to Right I mean, you know it's fun and you get to have the characters do whatever you want them to do, and you get to control them in a way that you can't do with nonfiction. So it was a lot more fun and also you know my previous nonfiction experienced reading the outpost about Afghanistan was emotionally grueling not to mention. Interviewed more than two hundred people and all that when it's Afganistan twice interviewed in surgeons interviewed. Grieving Widows and medal winners who have survivor's guilt and all the rest. So it's not even close. I mean the outpost is a much more important of bog. It's it's the journalistic accomplishment of which I'm proudest but. It was exhausting emotionally. And psychologically exhausting to. Right. There's another member of your family that came out with a book. One talks about that. Well, my daughter Alice twelve. But when she was something like nine or ten, she noticed that. Something was happening her schoolwork girls in her class were girls. Not raising their hand as much invoice for raising their hand much more and boys didn't feel like any voices raised their hand. Even if they had no idea what the answer was girls, she talked about it with a girl scout troop and they felt like they had to be one hundred percent before they would really make sure that they knew the answer before they raised their hand as she talked about it with my wife and she talked about it with a girl scout troop and she then talked about. It with the head of the local girl scouts and they came up with a patch, raise your hand patch in which girls committed to raising your hand in class more and get three friends to do so three other girls and I was so proud of her when the pants came out, I, tweeted about it and Barry Weiss than at the New York Times op Ed page saw that and asked if Alice would work with her on our bed about the importance of raising their hands. So she did. And then penguin books saw that in development work with them on writing a book so she did that to. Has a book called, raise your hand and came out and. It came out last like two, the early two, thousand nineteen. And yeah it's It's fun and we're really proud over. I. Saw you guys go on tour together. was been on was that. Allan Yeah, we went on Ellen that was fun, and so you just notice that girls weren't raising their hand in class and said that there's something wrong with that. Yeah. I noticed that will I wasn't being confident myself and I noticed that one day when I will kind of knew the answer to a question, the teacher asked me. that. All the boys in their hands and. And all the girls were kind of like just sitting. quietly. and. You said that I gotTa do somebody in your eleven, right? Yes. With a mop. We went on. She did the today show I was not I was not invited to that one and then we did. CNN. With Allison and John, Berman new day and. The coolest thing can I tell you? It was she ended up reading at politics and prose the independent bookstore here in DC. When she was on her book tour March Two Thousand Nineteen and we walk into the Children's section and there's all these little girls, all these six and eight year old girls. So excited to see Alice who at the time was ten about the turn eleven. Or Eleven, about the turned twelve rather and. It was just so cool because she was inspiring. These I mean she's a little girl. You know in my mind and she's inspiring all these little girls and so that was that was one of the that was maybe the best moment of two, thousand nineteen for me I mean it was just so great. Something else. How's your house? How's her brother handling all of this? Oh, he's fine. He's got his own. But you said in a particular way though he's fine. Well I mean we we were worried like what's IT GONNA be like but he was he's just he's just his own Kid Jack, my my my old. He's just he's his own. He wants to be a policeman and he's into video games and he's got his bros. and he's proud of his sister and there isn't really there sibling rivalry but there isn't jealousy I mean they annoy each other and fighting all that stupid stuff that you do with your brother sister they're they're pretty supportive of each other. So it's cool. Jake Tapper. Thanks again for being on the show was real real delight our so much. Thanks for. Conversational Jake Tapper continues for members of the. Cafe insider community. Insiders get bonus. Stay tuned content the exclusive weekly podcast co host with an milligram the United Security PODCAST CO hosted by Lisa Monaco and Ken Wayne Recordings of weekly notes by L. E. Hoenig, and me and more. To get a two week trial for free head to CAFE DOT COM slash insider that's cafe dot com slash insider. Show by telling you about a family project that I have been working on. So. Here we are at the end of July. The summer is still sweltering, but we're about to head into an election season. Yes. We've been the election season for a little while the two parties are going to have their conventions and then I think for the first time it is really true what get said in every election cycle that this is the most important election of. Our lifetime than you've heard me talk a lot about what I think should happen. It's no secret, but the election is not only important at the presidential level. It's also important at the congressional level in the House and the Senate and in the various states, and it's something that I think everyone should be focusing on and should be carrying about and should be registering to vote. Whatever your point of view is. And so the combination of being in the pandemic and being on home confinement and my two boys fifteen and seventeen, not having cam to go to not having a whole lot of other stuff to occupy them. We decided we engage in sort of family. Political Enterprise is the boys I mentioned before my two sons do extemporaneous speaking in competition at high schools who pay a lot of attention to the news maybe because of their parents. In a very versed in public affairs and politics international relations as well. So we came up with this project they have been spending some time focusing on thirty one battleground house races around the country they believe as I do and maybe indoctrinated them sorry that the house should remain in democratic hands so that various things can be accomplished in the next administration, and so they focused on thirty one battleground house races to bring to my attention and I told him if they do that that every day in August beginning of Saturday August I I will highlight one of those races. And highlight one of the candidates in those races based on their recommendations which they vetted very carefully I believe every day I will make a five hundred dollars donation to the candidates they have suggested I will tweet it. I've done that, and I'll suggest other people to donate what they can or at least follow the candidate learn more about the candidate and do whatever they think is right and at the same time we're going to be focusing on other ways we can promote voter registration voter participation mail in voting, and then maybe in September will focus little more on the Senate. and the presidential race. But for now, if you don't like the recommendations made by my boys, blame them not me. Somebody who know that I have a nineteen year old daughter maybe wondering why is she not involved with project and that's because she very industrious in his simultaneously doing to internships including working directly on a political campaign so She's busy. By the way if you're listening to this anything, there's a particular candidate that my boy should be focusing on and should be promoting tweeted at me and I promise I'll share the tweets with my son's It for this episode of stay tuned. Thanks again to my guest Jake. Tapper. You like what we do rate and review the show on apple podcasts or listen every positive review helps new listeners find the show. Send me your questions about news politics and Justice tweet them to me at pre Berar with the Hashtag. Ask Pre or you can call and leave me a message at six, six, nine, two, four, seven, seven, three, three, eight, that's six, six, nine, two, four, prete or you can send an email to stay tuned a cafe dot com. Stay tuned is presented by cafe. The executive producer is Tamara seper. The senior audio producer is David Tattoo Shore, and the cafe team is Matthew. Billy David Kurland Sam Oser Statement Calvin Lord know as Eli and Jeff is with. Our music is by Andrew Dust. I'm pre- Perahera stay tuned.

President US Afghanistan. president Outpost Keating Donald Trump Jake Tapper CNN Taliban Roger Stone twitter army New York Lane Maxwell President George W Bush Afghanistan Bill Bar Florida Palm Beach
Barr's botched effort to rig SDNY for Trump prompts investigation

MSNBC Rachel Maddow (audio)

47:44 min | 7 months ago

Barr's botched effort to rig SDNY for Trump prompts investigation

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S. and get sixty percent off your luminous ilk for in one airbrush system. That's try silk dot com slash tr. The. Show. To minutes turn on MSNBC. Happy to have you with us? The United States has about four percent of the world's total population. As of now we account for about twenty percent of the new corona virus infections every day. The WHO said today that today was the largest number of new virus. Cases reported worldwide since the start of the epidemic. But for us here at home. It's just mind blowing that this far into it right now. On average one in five of every new corona virus cases, every new coronavirus case reported daily is a case from the United States when we are only four percent of the world's population. On the daily chart of American new cases reported each day we had dropped down a a little bit, but now we are very clearly climbing back up. We had recently hovered around twenty, maybe twenty five thousand new cases each day. Twice in the last few days, though we have talked thirty thousand new cases in a day. Epidemiologist Michael Oester home now says that we should stop thinking of this thing in terms of first wave and second wave because we're just GONNA. Keep Burning through twenty twenty-five thirty thousand new infections every day than this is. This is less like some succession of distinct waves. and. He says it's more like just a forest fire. To something that is large and raging and by the way we're not really trying to put it out anymore. More than twenty states now have rising case numbers each day in Washington State Yakima. Counties main hospital is now out of beds. They're out of both ICU beds and regular hospital beds, new covid patients and Yakima County being shipped out to their neighboring counties Franklin. County in Benton County Washington, but officials in those counties now say that if this keeps up, they are going to be full in those neighboring counties as well. Some Washington Kovic patients are now being flown as far away as Seattle to find them a hospital bed. Seattle is hours away from Yakima County. The other corner of the country Florida Florida's arts largest spike yet in new infections this weekend there over one hundred thousand cases in the state. Now we are two months away from the Republican. National Convention being hosted in Jacksonville Florida. That's where they moved it. Because of Corona virus concerns by local authorities in North Carolina. The Republican Party has thus far submitted no safety plan for how they're planning to deal with infection concerns at the Jacksonville RNC. That Jacksonville Republican convention can in two months time that one really is expected to attract thousands of people. Unlike the sad little show, the president was so disappointed by this weekend in Tulsa with that Tulsa arena two thirds empty as he spoke. In Florida statewide. The governor, there is still refusing to release straightforward numbers about things like Kovic Hospitalizations, and how much hospital capacity is left available in Florida but cases, their new cases there keep hitting new record numbers. Case numbers are just rising relentlessly. We know from local reporting about some Florida hospitals being pushed to the point of capacity already, even though we don't have statewide numbers for hospital capacity. Now as of today, the Great City of Miami Florida says they are going to pause. They're reopening plans because of their serious concerns about rising cases in and around Miami. Few states over Louisiana also announced plans today to pause. They're reopening plans giving case numbers rising once again in Louisiana. In Texas where the governor has been very trumpy in his happy talk assertions about the virus while Texas case numbers been going through the roof, rising super steeply since the end of May, even in Texas the fact that they have just hit ten straight days of record hospitalization numbers appears to have given the state government there. Pause as of today governor. Greg Abbott, of Texas, now, warning that the state of Texas may have to close down again in order to try to save lives. At the federal level, the president today refused to entertain questions about whether he really meant it on Saturday night, until when he said he told the government to slow down covert testing, because all the positive test results were making him look bad. White House officials keep telling reporters that the president was joking when he said that the president himself does not say that he was joking in those remarks, and he wouldn't answer direct questions about it today. He wouldn't answer direct questions as to the underlying assertion whether he really is deliberately trying to scuttle testing effort, so there's less data about the number of Americans getting infected, getting sick and dying from this thing. You might remember there was that senior economic advisor to President Trump who a few weeks ago circulated his own cubic model of what was going to happen to the epidemic. Remember that he had this graph that he made which was distributed on behalf of the Council of Economic Advisors. This graph said the number of corona virus cases in this country was going to drop to zero by the middle of May. Put that on May fifth. He said, don't worry. There's only ten more days of this thing by the middle of as things going to be over. Not long after that that's when we got vice president pence as head of the coronavirus task force, saying in an interview that the whole epidemic was going to be behind us. It was going to be in the rear view mirror by Memorial Day weekend. Perhaps he got that from the Council of Economic Advisers putting up that graph, saying it would all be over in mid may well the genius who came up with that. It will all be over in mid-may idea. He wasn't economic advisor to the president. A senior advisors name is Kevin Hassett. Today! He announced that he is resigning. couldn't come at a better time. I also WanNa let you know but a breaking news development that we are following trying to get some more information on tonight. This is the footage we got so far of Lafayette Square Tonight Lafayette. Square also known as black lives. Matter Plaza. Directly across from the White House. We're getting word tonight. You see protesters trying to pull on the statue there. We're getting word tonight that they may have again once again. You can use tear gas to clear protesters apparently trying to take down that statue of Andrew Jackson. Again that is a developing story that we are pursuing more reporting on. We will have more on that when we get it. On on the subject of of resignations. With the clarity, of hindsight, now it is starting to seem like a recent rash of high level resignations from the US Justice Department might be more interesting than that. String of resignation seemed at the time that it was happening. Within just the past couple of weeks, the head of the Criminal Division at the Justice Department a controversial trump appointing named Brian Bench cousy. He announced that he was resigning from the Justice Department. In short order the head of the Civil Division at the Justice Department of men named Jodi Hunt he to announce that he's resigning from the Justice Department also an equally short order it. We got a surprise announcement that the Solicitor General, the lead litigator for the Justice Department the lawyer, who among other things, represents the federal government in cases before the Supreme Court very high profile job no Franscisco. We got word to that. He also has submitted his resignation to the Justice Department. I mean attorney. General is still there attorney. General Bill Bar is still there. We're going to talk with House Judiciary Chairman Jerry Nadler, and just a moment about his open investigation. Of Bill. Bar, we're going to talk with New Yorker reporter David Rohde about his reporting. That Bill Barr thinks he's going nowhere and he's going to be with trump to the bitter end. But for now William Morris still there, but it's sort of passed without notice that he has just lost the heads of both major divisions in the Justice Department. He lost the head of the Civil Division and the head of the criminal division and the Solicitor General Basically all at once. And it's all happened very recently and very quickly, and maybe they just decided to spend more time with their families all at the same time, totally possible. But it also seems like this terrible miniseries. We've all been watching about the death of the republic. It feels like it's recent. Episodes have taken some very dark and very ugly turns that are now getting sort of not just more worrying, but more poorly executed. I mean it has only been three weeks. The John. If you just look at the snapshot of what's happened over the past three weeks, it does kind of feel like bill bars. Wheels are falling off. A. Just, the past three weeks, since since attorney, General Bill Bar for some reason that stills and explained. Assumed, some kind of military command of various federal agents during protests in DC like the one we saw tonight. Under, Bill Bars Command these federal agents by enlarge didn't where news or name badges or anything identifying what agency they were from bill bar also supposedly commanded these random agents from some kind of F. B. I. Outpost. New torney general. General isn't. Actually a military title you're the Attorney General and some people call you general Bar, but you're not actually a general. Nevertheless bar assumed command three weeks ago of these federal agents under mysterious authority, and then under his mysterious authority. He ordered these federal officers to attack peaceful protesters in Lafayette Park three weeks ago right? He ultimately ended up sending the tactics and the weapons used by those federal officers by saying in part that nobody should object to the use of pepper spray on those protesters. And on the clergy and on reporters, and all the rest of the people there, he said nobody subject to these pepper spray on those people because according to attorney general of our, he said pepper spray is not a chemical irritant. Thinks. It's like a spice. Seasoning for your eyeballs. An irritant, it's just pepper spray. Shortly thereafter that episode, in which Attorney Journal bar ordered federal agents to attack protesters, and then said it was no big deal. Those tactics and weapons and gases that they used. Shortly thereafter, when the criminal division chief resigned in the Solicitor General resigned, and then the civil division chief resigned. Then in very short order the first excerpts of the John Bolton Book came out in which John Bolton said among other things that the trump White House carried out quote obstruction of justice as a way of life. Bolton's book says that Attorney General William Bar helped the president to interfere in for example the prosecution of a Turkish baths. President trump had apparently told the Turkish president. He would take care of that prosecution. He'd get rid of it. That case was in the southern district of New York. Bolton says in his book. Is that attorney? General will embar in fact tried to interfere in that case at the president's request, but the prosecutors in the southern district of New York wouldn't be messed with and so the prosecution went ahead. Soon after those. Excerpts became public bar. Then launched this weird late. Ham handed effort to try to secure a legal injunction against Bolton's book. He tried to get a judge to. All the copies of Bolton's book out of circulation. Tried to get a judge to order. That Bolton's book should be retrieved from all the bookstores that had been sent to and I'll the reviewers that had been sent to and all the news organizations that had been sent to. That effort to try to get a judge to do that with Bolton's book that effort failed. Obviously, it was bizarre that even tried it. Thin in short order, the trump administration lost two major cases at the Supreme Court One right after the other on lgbt civil rights, and then on Daca the dreamers case that dreamers case they law specifically through the sheer ineptitude of the administration's lawyering abilities. We're still right now. Awaiting another Supreme Court ruling on whether the president's financial records, tax returns are subject to subpoena by prosecutors or investigators. Attorney General William Bar Naturally had the Justice Department joined forces with the president's personal lawyers to try to shield the president from that kind of scrutiny. But. We'll see that that ruling could come at any time. If there's one prospect that seemingly causes president trump more agitated than anything. It is the potential public release his real financial information. While the Supreme, court could rule on that anytime now. Again Attorney General William Embar took the interesting step of citing the US. Justice Department with the president's personal lawyers in his personal interests to try to shield those things from investigators. Then, in short order, we learned that the House Judiciary Committee would hold a hearing this week day after tomorrow a hearing for which they have scheduled. FROM TO WHISTLE BLOWERS To currently serving Justice Department officials who will testify as whistle blowers as to attorney, Joe Journal bars repeated interference in the course of justice in ways that are designed to bolster the president's personal and political interests. John Elias is due to testify from the antitrust. Division about William. Bars alleged interference with antitrust cases to try to help the president politically. Errands Linski is expected to testify as well. He resigned from the Roger Stone Prosecution. After bar took a wrecking ball to the US attorney's office in DC sideline to the real us. Attorney inserted his own handpicked flying monkeys instead, and then swiftly intervened to roll back prosecutions of stone and one other of the president's friends. I mean this is the last three weeks. And time has no meaning anymore, and it's hard to figure out what day it is. Let alone what week it is, but over the course three weeks. All of this has been rolling downhill. Faster and faster. And then. Friday night late Friday night just days before this upcoming hearing about bill bar intervening in the course of Justice Detroit, a benefit, the president. Laid Friday night classic Friday Night News Dump Attorney General. Bar Rolls out this absolutely botched effort. To try to fire the head of the other most important federal prosecutor's office in the country right? He succeeded in decapitating the US Attorney's office in DC. And getting rid of its independence, taking over installing his own people making that office do the president's favors. That's the DC US attorney's office bar one there. The other prosecutor's Office that most touches. The president's interests is obviously the prosecutor's office that named president trump individual one in the Michael Cohen case, the prosecutor's office that described the president as the person who directed the Commission of those felonies that put the president's personal lawyer in federal prison for those illegal hush money payments. He made during the two thousand sixteen campaign. It's the same prosecutor's office that recently brought charges against our friends Levin, eager for allegedly funneling hundreds of thousands of dollars in illegal contributions to Republican campaigns. Campaigns the main super pat in the main SUPERPAC supporting president trump's reelection. They did those things according to prosecutors while they were working with the president's other personal lawyer on the Ukraine scheme, for which the president was impeached back in December. This is the same prosecutor's office that has reportedly been investigating the president's lawyer himself. Rudy Giuliani as to among other things whether he was illegally acting as a foreign agent while also working as the president's lawyer. Jenning up this game for which the president has already been impeached. Is the same prosecutor's office that subpoenaed president trump's inaugural committee as part of what appears to be an investigation into potentially illegal foreign contributions to the president's inaugural committee as well. It's also the same prosecutor's office that in September is due to take up the bizarre case of this Chicago Small Time banker who allegedly tried to buy himself an appointment as trump secretary of the army by giving trump's campaign chairman convicted felon. Paul manafort millions of dollars in bogus loans as a bribe. That trial of Steven Kalk is due to start in September in the southern district of New York. When Attorney General William Bar announced late on Friday night that the US attorney in the southern district of New York was stepping down. He was apparently ham handedly trying to force that US attorney into stepping down into resigning so that he could slot his own guys in the VAT office much like he did in the US Attorney's office in DC. But he botched it. It did not work out well. He didn't do it right. Bar said in this late night. Statement on Friday night Jeffrey Berman had resigned. Jeffrey Berman had not, and he very soon made that publicly. Clear bar then said well okay. If I'm not firing you. The president has fired. You Bar then said in writing that president trump had fired, Jeffrey Bourbon the president himself than directly contradicted that instead no I. Didn't. I didn't have anything to do with it? Among other things, Jeff Berman thought back against whatever this is that attorney William Bar has just tried to pull off Jeff Berman fought back in such a way that now, his deputy woman named Audrey Strauss will be keeping control of that office. Rather event bar. Being allowed to put in his hand picked replacements. But with all those cases in Y, all those ongoing cases that pertain to the president's interests. and. Honestly the prospect that if the president is going to be indicted for anything that he did while he was in office. That he would be indicted. After being voted out of office in November once he was no longer president. If you were expecting any sort of indictment for anything. The president did while in office that would likely come from the southern district of New, York, but hey, the Um. With William, bars, legitimately horrifying record of intervening in matters of justice on the president. CEO Say so on the president's behalf. The one way William Bar most badly botched this whole thing. Is that he forgot to come up with any explanation for why he was trying to fire that prosecutor, and take over that office with his own guys. He didn't even cook up a cover story. And now judiciary chairman Jerry Nadler says he has opened an investigation into what exactly William Bar has done this time. hoops. Terminal joins US live next. 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That's northbound dot com slash motto for twenty. Five percent off H used to. Do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard, I'm Chuck Roosenburg on my podcast. The oath I speak with those who sacrificed for the common good who believe in collective responsibility who do things because they are hard, our conversations on the author thoughtful, civil, respectful essential, we bring these leaders and their struggles and successes to life this week. Former Surgeon General Vivek Murthy, their fundamental core values around decency, Brown kindness round compassion this part of our shared humanity. We are truly interdependent. We are stronger when we are together. Join me for season three. The oath and MSNBC podcast search the oath wherever you're listening right now and please subscribe new episodes every Wednesday. Joining us now for the interview, I'm very pleased to say. Is Jerry Nadler? There was the chair of the House Judiciary Committee Mr. Chairman There's a lot going on I. really appreciate you making time to be here with US tonight. Thanks for your time Sir. Rachel! I everybody was. Shocked by the news on Friday night that the attorney general was announcing that the attorney in New York was stepping down I. was something more than shocked when I saw? That US Attorney Jeff Berman. Respond by saying I have done no such thing and I. do not intend to resign. Since that happened on Friday night. Have you been able to figure out any more about what happened? Do you have any idea why attorney general bar has moved to oust fat US attorney and done so in this sort of shocking way that he did? Well! We certainly think that it's because. This is another instance of the Attorney General. Doing the president's bidding, corrupting justice in trying to make sure that the Justice Department doesn't do its proper job only serves. As an instrument to the president for whitewashing, whitewashing improper things he's doing. That's why we're holding this investigation into the corruption by bar of the Justice Department. Which we've announced. In terms of. Mr Berman's public statements around this. Botched incident. It was striking to me that he. In his initial statement immediately talked about protecting the important investigations of that office, making sure that they were not impeded in any way, he outmaneuvered the attorney general over the course of the weekend, so that now it is. His deputy is his handpicked entrusted Deputy. Who's going to stay in control of that office? Instead of attorney, general bars handpicked replacements. But obviously the way this all went down and what you just said suggests to a lot of people, but there may be investigations here that touch on the president's interest. That attorney general is trying to mess with. If. That's the case. How do you figure that out? How do you structure such an investigation to find out if there has been that kind of improper influence who is allowed to tell you those sort of things? We are having investigation. Because that's exactly what we suspect we will be having a a Mrs Lewinsky for example, one of the prosecutors who resigned the Because he was told. Not, told by the Attorney General to corruptly change the sentencing recommendations for the presence friend Roger Stone. He'll be one of the witnesses. We'll have other witnesses and I think we can get to the bottom of this of this corruption of the Justice Department by the by the by the president by Bill Bar. Those witnesses that are going to testify. You're hearing on on Wednesday, do you? They're both serving Justice Department officials. Will. They have whistleblower protections to so that they can't be retaliated against at the Justice Department for what they're going to tell you. They'll be able to say what they have to say. Can you elaborate on that at all? I think no, I think. They will be able to say what they have to say in the and that's sufficient for now. It's been reported over the course of the evening. Both axios now NBC News reporting that you are. That you intend to send a subpoena. To, the general. For his his testimony, in this investigation that you're launching, is that true? And what do you expect will be the result? Well. We have begun the process that takes a process. We have begun the process issue that subpoena. Yes, it is. It is very much true we are. We are doing that. Do you expect attorney. General Bar will respect the subpoena, or do you expect that he'll defy it? Well? We know that Subpoenas are supposed to be respected obviously. the corruption of the attorney. General of may lead him to try to do to to To defy it. In terms of Mr, Berman, we have other. We have other you have others. Go ahead sir. We let me say we we. We have other. Other remedies to to try to force attorney general weekly can. We can eliminate is is his His office budget. Their number things we can do which we will do. His office budget like his paper clips budget, or does he have some sort of large discretionary amount of funding that you could cut off? No, we're talking about the. We're talk. We're talking about the budget. The Department of Justice. In terms of Mr Berman and the firing of this US attorney. You've said that you have invited him to testify about what just happened. And you said this this weekend that you expect him to testify, although not necessarily at this hearing that's coming up imminently on on Wednesday. Can you tell us anything else about whether or not about your invitation to Mr Berman and and what we should expect in terms of hearing from him about what he's just been through. Well, we would certainly like Mr Berman to testify. There are issues about his testimony in terms of prejudicing prosecutions. That may limit that we'll have to see. I. I just WANNA I know you're limited in terms of what you can say I'm limited in terms of what I can articulate about my frustrations on this, but what I at the top of the show I went through this list of all of the different prosecutions that have happened Sdn y just since president trump has been a candidate that that all touch on him a number of which appear to be ongoing or were potentially looking at superseding indictments for people for existing cases for more people who are connected to the. The president clothing personal lawyer Mr. Giuliani who recently resurfaced is becoming part of the reelection campaign. We hadn't heard about him for months I. Mean I'm very worried. Given what we've seen from attorney journal Bar about the way he's intervened in ongoing investigations and ongoing prosecutions, we to undo things on behalf of the president, and I because other people in the Justice Department respect the tradition in the necessity to not talk about ongoing cases. I'm worried that there isn't a way for us to find out about that improper pressure. Well that that is the point of of the investigation that we're doing very worried that the traditional independence of the Justice Department and of the Southern District of new. York is being interfered with and subverted correctly by the by attorney, General Bar on behalf of the president We very much believe that that is what is happening, and that is what we it investigating because that kind of corruption of destroying the independence of the Justice Department of the Southern District and make in trying to make it into a a personal play thing the president is exactly the kind of corruption, but this country cannot tolerate and that we are investigating here. Has Judiciary Chairman Jerry Nadler I really appreciate you making the time tonight I know these next couple of days are gonNA be really intense. Thanks for helping US understand. Jerusalem! All right. We've got much more to come here tonight. Including Conversation with New Yorker reporter David Road who has some late reporting tonight. About, William Bars own plans in terms of what happens next in his own career. Stay with us. A. Quote on Friday night. William bar seemed to embrace obstruction of justice as a way of life in his ongoing defense of Donald Trump. It didn't go well in apparent attempt to protect president trump's personal lawyer. Rudy Giuliani from criminal prosecution attorney. General Bar issued a false statement that the US attorney in Manhattan. Jeffrey Berman had agreed to step down Bar Shirley at trump's behest was attempting to remove a federal prosecutor who's carried out a series of politically embarrassing investigations of trump allies, so begins the latest piece from Pulitzer Prize winning reporter David Rohde up tonight at New Yorker Dot at New York. Excuse me at the New Yorker Dot Com. David rose been on sort of on the on the William. Bar beat in recent months in this PC goes on to describe Attorney General William Bars Ham handed hosting of the US Attorney in Manhattan as capturing quote the confusing. The confusing combination of brazen corruption and sheer incompetence that has become a hallmark of the trump administration quote the attempted Friday night. Firing confirmed allegations in a new book by former National Security Adviser John Bolton, which trump and bar unsuccessfully tried to suppress that the president has repeatedly interfered in criminal investigations into friends, political allies and most of all himself. Here's the reason I want to talk to David wrote about this tonight, not just because he's covered this attorney. Journal extensively for the New Yorker and for his latest book. But, because David Rhodes reporting has led into some soap ring conclusions in the last few months about bill bars Justice Department earlier this year. David Road told me on this show. That bill bar believes the president has the power to disobey a court order. which is the actual real life definition of a constitutional crisis, and may become very operable concern if the Supreme Court in a soon expected ruling, says that the president's financial records and taxes have to be handed over to prosecutors and congressional investigators. Mr Road published a piece. Just last month headlined from the Justice. Department to the Intelligence Community Donald Trump and William bar have one arguing that any guardrails preventing a president from using the Justice Department and intelligence agencies for political purposes have now been quote obliterated. which makes it all the more notable tonight that David? Road sees signs that Donald Trump and bill bars attempts to turn the Justice Department on its head so that it does the president's bidding. Those efforts may be encountering resistance quote in a sign of how quickly trump in bars. Political standing is shifting one of trump's most fawning backers in the Senate Lindsey Graham indicated this weekend that he would not support trump's pick to replace Jeff -firmative, Sdn, Y after other Senate Republicans declined to support trump's pick bar agreed to appoint Berman's deputy following standard practice support for bar among career Justice Department officials appears to be eroding of the past several weeks. Three senior department officials have announced their departures as I mentioned at the top of the show head of the Civil Division head of the Criminal Division and the Solicitor General All, just resigned in very quick succession. Things feel very uncertain at the US justice. Department right now. Kind of feels like just about anything could happen next. Joining us now with what has been a pretty clear crystal ball about this part of government in the trump administration is David, road, who's executive director executive editor for News at New Yorker Dot Com? He's also the author most recently of in deep, the FBI the CIA and the truth about America's deep state at Dave wrote. It's great to see a thanks for making time to be here tonight. You're kind have me on show. I've been talking about this for the last. Few minutes here on. The show just spoke with Chairman Nadler. Let me I just asked you. If anything that I've said strikes you as as wrong or backwards, or if I missing the point of any of this as it has unfolded over the last couple of days. No. You're absolutely right in. It's. It's been surprising you. This three week timeframe from clearing the park outside the White House. To this, you know amateurs effort to oust the US attorney in Manhattan on Friday. Something seems often the way bill bars is executing. What, you spoke with somebody at the Justice Department, who wouldn't let you print their name, but somebody who's appeared to be close to bars, thinking on this matter in terms of what's going on with him right now. What? What did that person tell you about How bar is sort of coping with how botched this has all been like the way. This is all kind of falling apart. the line from the Justice Department. Is that you know build ours? Following the beliefs he's had for decades. You mentioned this earlier. The power of president to in in essence run criminal investigations of himself to pick and choose. Which prosecutor looks at his allies? and at bars determined to stay in office through November He's standing by his beliefs. from law and order. If you remember bar was agreement president trump that you know. The streets needed to be dominated to who gets to investigate the president and whether he. Has To obey subpoenas from Congress. Well on that point a jerry now they're just chairman Jerry. Nadler Judiciary Committee just told me effectively that they are on the on track towards subpoenaing bill bar to testify as they have opened up an investigation into whether he has been improperly interfering in parental prosecutions to benefit the president My expectation based in part on your reporting and analysis. Is that Bill Bar will ball up any subpoena that he receives and throw it in the trash immediately that he doesn't have any respect. For those kinds of supposedly mandatory summons at all. I think that's what's going to happen in an a big change I think more than anything in the last few weeks. in addition to the protests is branch is standing up to the president. Chief Justice John Roberts delivered to you know politically devastating decisions this week her last week, to the trump administration. You've got judge Sullivan. It's fighting bars effort to throw out the charges against Michael Flynn. So I was very worried. I wrote as you pointed out that are trump were winning so I'm I'm? Surprised it is I think a positive science. Judges are pushing back again as you notice the key dynamic. Here's Lindsey, Graham a Republican, who has endorsed everything Donald. Trump is done and bill bar has done is under so much a political pressure as he faces reelection in South Carolina that. He didn't back this maneuver on night, so it's it's a dramatic shift in a trump in bars. Political standing political capital might lack last given how quickly things have been changing throughout this administration, but something has changed. What Bill Bar is doing is not working and this this attempt on Friday night sailed. David, road executive editor at The New Yorker website David. Thank you for your time tonight. Thanks for your reporting are being here. I will just say. That when Bill Bar. At the president's behest decapitated the US Attorney's office in Washington DC. Engineered the ousting of the US attorney there and installed all his own flying monkeys on motorcycles to get in there and botch and screw up an undue ongoing prosecution and sentencing procedures. For people who had already pled guilty or had been convicted. And as far as we can tell, potentially also installed people to quash ongoing investigations that had not yet led to public indictments where he we could see charges when that happened when he successfully did what he needed to do to eliminate any threat to the president from the US Attorney's office in DC was seen as sort of like a horror movie. But it didn't cause enough of a backlash that trump that trump in bar didn't just try to do it in the next most important office to them, too. They got away with it in DC. That's why they tried this weekend to do it in New York and they'll continue trying to do it. In New York Berman is out of their his deputies still there, but they will continue because it worked for them in C., and they need it to work for them in New York and what kind of defense will the rest of the country make of the rule of law and the independent prosecutorial system that accountability and our? Constitutional Republic depends on. Seeing, what happened in DC should have been a five alarm fire well now. Here's another US attorneys office. That's on fire to where's the fire brigade? All right, we'll be back. Stay with us. Today's supposed to be. What is the beginning of my workweek, but last night it picked up an extra shift. and that is because. We don't have enough nurses to. Take care of the patients that we have on any given day so. A lot of us are working overtime several shifts a week just to. Be Able to care of the volume of patients that we have an ICU right now. So. Depending on the week. Can work four shifts or five shifts instead of our three. So. Today supposed to be one that. Day To. So, That's okay. Last night was tough. Spent a lot of emotional distress. Amongst myself and my co workers. More. End of life care. And conversations. Spin really emotionally distressing. Seeing these young people get sick with families and. These lives laughed to live That just pass away and. It's hard. You see I'm come in, and they're gasping Aaron. You intimate them, and you try to reassure them that it's GonNa. It's GonNa. Be Okay and. Then it's not. And I honestly don't know how things are to get in. It's Kerry. Yeah I'm going to go. Take a shower real quickly. Have Breakfast, my kids and try to switch tomorrow mode and just. Be! Strong reassuring. Person In my kid's life. Kim Stability. That's the best I can do. Anything. We're GONNA fake it today. Feeling all right? But we're to make it work. To make work. Last night was a bit tough in the sense that it was just really busy. For the hospital itself. I didn't get to see our intensive. She was so busy. With several codes and At missions, lots of admissions. So. have very limited space. Is You right now? It's. Becoming a bit of a problem, it is the problem actually. There's talk of crisis coming in soon and helping us out. And, I would be very thankful for that. That's melody noon. Garage Ortiz she is an ICU nurse at Banner University Medical Center in Phoenix, Arizona. Or what the frontline health providers like Ms Ortiz are saying is that the situation is? Unsustainable Heart. As you heard her, say there. For example says she said that some of the their patients are hooked up to machines which are machines that are essentially designed to work as an external set of lungs. When even a ventilator isn't enough. The ECM machines are an extremely sensitive form of life. Support normally requires a two person team to care for a patient who's on an Echo but at the moment they can't afford that many staff because there's so many people in the circumstance, and so it's one nurse per ECM, oh. That's how overwhelmed they are at the moment, and it's not just banner university. Medical Center in Phoenix alone as of last night, intensive care units across Arizona were at eighty four percent capacity every day. More than thousand people are being hospitalized in that state with no relief in sight, daily case numbers skyrocketing over the past few weeks. And while the state is just barely treading water and dealing with people who are already sick, it's also struggling with testing system that has proven to be among the worst in the nation this weekend. Residents in one part of Southwest Phoenix. In line for nearly thirteen hours just to try to get tested. A miles long line of cars thirteen hours one mantle the Arizona Republic. He brought his grandmother to get tested. He brought her in early at five thirty. In the morning. They sat in the Sun for more than nine hours before they decided that they would. They couldn't wait any longer, and they just went home and she never got tested. That is a bad sign in a place that is already looking at numbers that are off. The charts with hospitals are already full. And so naturally. That's what the president's going tomorrow. For Big Congregate in person inside event. Because Tulsa was such a success. Why not follow it up? His first stop is actually going to be in the Yuma Arizona one of the hardest hit counties in the country. In Arizona that we're one of the first hospital systems to be overwhelmed to start Medevac in their patients elsewhere. He's going to Yuma not to do anything having to do with the pandemic response. He's instead going there to talk about his wall. From there he will head to Phoenix to Mega Church for a campaign speech that more than three thousand people are expected to attend. Endorse. At yet Tulsa went so great. Why not start in Phoenix next of all places? You thinking about doing a meat packing plant tour next maybe some nursing home events. While, you're probably thinking. It might be dodgy to attend tightly packed indoor rally in a state with an exploding corona virus epidemic, the pastors of the church where the president's going to be speaking what? You didn't know that actually everything's fine. We some exciting information about what we're doing to fight. covid nineteen. Here dreams to the church were probably first searching the nation to yeah, we've We've installed clean-air, ESP. We have a local Arizona Company was technology developed by some members of our church, and we've installed these units, and it kills ninety nine point nine percent of Cova within ten minutes VIP testing is. Is is in its isolation of out the air, and it takes particular salad and Cova cannot live in that environment so when you come into our Tony, I'm ninety nine percent of Kobe is gone killed. If it was there in the first place, so you can know you come here. You'll be safe and protected. Thank God for Great Technology and think for active man. Bless you guys. They solved it. They figured out how to get rid of it totally. Nothing to worry about I suppose it's not like. Arena is in crisis or anything. Everything's fine. Listen to those guys that got it all under control. Watch this space. Grade something back. Up. Shomari stone is reporter for the NBC affiliate in DC reporting tonight from Lafayette. Square right across from from the White House. And Federal Park police have used gas again against protestors and Lafayette Square of the parks police just sent out this statement saying quote, the US with assistance from the Metropolitan Police Department, the police and secret service are working to prevent the destruction of the injured Jackson Statue in Lafayette Park in front of the White House quote. The park is temporarily closed. This is an ongoing situation. Tonight in DC we will have is on it throughout the night the. Show! We did nine eastern on MSNBC.

president President Trump US attorney US Justice Department General Bill Bar United States attorney prosecutor William Bar New York Judiciary Chairman Jerry Nadle Attorney General William Bars Jeffrey Berman DC General Bar White House MSNBC reporter bill bar
Wednesday, July 10th, 2019

Up First

14:03 min | 1 year ago

Wednesday, July 10th, 2019

"Resident trump's administration convinced mexico the shelter some asylum seekers there waiting just short of united states what's daily life like for those who say they fight for their life i'm noel king in el paso i'm steve inskeep deepen washington and this is up first from npr news a judge rejected the president's tried to change a legal team the justice department were seeking some new strategy to get a citizenship question on the census what did the president have less should the secretary of labor pay a price for his past alex acosta was the prosecutor who made a plea deal with jeffrey epstein which many democrats now disparage he had a sweetheart deal for the powerful it expensive the people who needed his protection how does the president defended stay with us we'll guide you through this day's news support for npr and the following message come from honest committed to better for you organic options for all honest products are fair trade certified in what you choose to drink and honest product money goes to a fair trade certified suppliers to help support their communities visit honest t dot com slash podcast to learn more support also comes simply safe home security simply safe protects your whole home every window room door with round the clock professional monitoring no long term contracts get free shipping on your order at simply safe dot com slash up first all this week i had been walking back and forth across the border between the united states and mexico we're here at a time when this country's approach to migration is changing there's no more wall than there used to be even though president trump says otherwise but what has changed is that some people seeking asylum in the u s are now being told to wait in mexico and were down here learning how that policy is changing people's life will know all my first question is whether that policy would be a reason why the number of migrants grunts reaching the united states seems to have dropped a little lightly yeah authorities tell us it is part of one reason migration steve always goes down in the summer as you know because it is just unbearably hot and fewer people decide to make the journey but but important note there's it's also been increased enforcement of crackdown essentially on the mexican side of the border and then there's the trump administration policy called the migrant protection protocols initiative most people just call it remain in mexico how's it work all right let's say you are looking to get asylum and the uss back in the day in the past you cross the border and you'd say i had to leave my home my home country i'm in danger for x reason an you would be given a court date and you'd wait in the united states until you're court date remain in mexico changes is that now you get to the u s n you are sent back over the border to wait in mexico for you're day in a you escort now this is happening to thousands of people i'm right across the border from seed on whereas in mexico over seven thousand people have been dropped off their sometimes in the middle of the night with no money and nowhere to go eat is really really unpleasant and you could see what the purpose of the trump administration is here one purpose anyway they argue that letting people into the united states to wait for a court date gives them an incentive just just to come whether they have a good reason or not that's their case so they're making way more as what do you see when you go there i've seen a lot i mean i went looking to talk to people who'd been sent back to mexico so i went to one of the shelters where they've been staying it's on the outskirts of the city it's and the desert there's this cluster of little yellow buildings so i walk into one of them there are two bedrooms and there are twelve people from three families living there there's lots of kids teenagers toddlers running in and out i mean it's very hot i met a woman named bill keys peace and she had just the worst stroke of luck she showed up at the u s border seeking asylum the same week that remain in mexico came into effect here and she told me that the border patrol essentially said to her bad luck you guys are going back to mexico now she's here with her seventeen year old son he was targeted back home by the gang ms thirteen and she told me like right now my kid is a mess could okay any whole fnc massive feeling his tibia stay standing she said said he's seventeen years old and adolescent but he cries all the time like a little kid oh gosh a one of many people i gather you met including one who has a court hearing today is that right that's right there crossing the border into el paso today so this is josephson tanya they're a family from honduras they have a little daughter witham tanya saw her her parents murdered again by members of the gang she was incredibly brave she testified against them in court and the gang was furious steve she told me that they left a note on her door one day and the note said you have forty five minutes to leave sincerely m s thirteen so she took her family and got out you're you have to believe that's inserted in that situation yeah absolutely now this is a terrible story but let me explain that in some ways they are very lucky because they have a lawyer here in the u s that is very rare most migrants were showing up in immigration court by themselves joseph told me either way he's really nervous about this hearing today now steve some of these migrants have been stuck in morris for months and one of the things i heard yesterday is that a lot of people significant number of people are just giving up and going home while i was at the shelter i met a young guy eighteen years old he's guatemalan his dad lives in oregon and had basically said come and stay with me so that's where this kid was headed he shows up at the uss border he get sent back to war as to remain in mexico and his dad basically tells him son i think it's time for you to give up i will tell you something interesting steve this young man did not seem happy about going home but he was one of the few people i've talked to this whole trip who didn't break down in two years while i was talking to him he told me he's just gonna get on a bus and go home you're telling me the most people do do we when they start talking oh absolutely yeah all right thanks for your reporting will continue hearing it through the weekend okay president trump's push to get a citizenship question on the twenty twenty census has hit another setback even after the supreme court ruled the question moscow the trump administration though is still trying to get this done if they're gonna do it within the law they need some new rationale some new reasoning so the justice department tried to change its entire legal team new lawyers to make a new case yesterday a federal judge in new york said no address hunter lo wong covers all things census and joins us now from new york concert good morning good morning steve why did the judge say now the judge called this request to withdraw these attorneys quote patently deficient any noted the administration provided no reason let alone satisfactory reasons which is what is required in order to change out lawyers here in this court in manhattan and he did allowed to attorneys who one is already left the justice department when his left the civil division of the justice department to withdraw but most of their attorneys are still on the case and the justice department has declined to comment on this latest development as the president responded to being stuck with the legal team strategy apparently he's not like yes not surprisingly he tweeted last night and he called this judge you us district judge jesse furman obama appointed judge andy said that this judge won't let the justice department user lawyers that it wants to use that's not what judge fermented here he said that he is declining this request a because the justice department did not provide a reason for withdrawing these attorney now i i guess we should mention we would normally not bothered to spend people's time talking about the exact identities of of various members of a legal team 'em but there seems to be something much larger at stake here what is behind this effort to changed lawyers that is a really good question and that is also what is so unusual here on the justice department is not provided a reason to the public as well for this change and i've talked to former justice department attorneys they're concerned about what's happening here sam alka free free lena former career dmz attorney entered a service under president obama just left earlier this year under president trump this is what he told me to reassign a trial team at this stage in litigation is did not put two front of a point on it insane just sort of throw someone in the deep end at this point in any litigation this major causes massive disruption and as the client you would never scared tiniest if that unless there is a good reason to so i guess we don't know literally why they try to change the team but we do know they were trying to change the legal argument right that essentially loss before the supreme court they had a very long shot opportunity to come up with some new rationale to squeeze a citizenship question on the census and they needed lawyers who would try to make that case and former deal jay attorneys are telling me they're concerned that this is a sign that just is why attorneys are being pressured to possibly violate their ethical standards by making arguments going forward onto thanks so much you're welcome centers on people won't high pressure is mounting labor secretary alex acosta to resign here's democratic senator chuck schumer it is now impossible for anyone have confidence in secretary acosta's ability to leave the department of labor if he refuses to resign resident trump should fire schumer is making that call because acosta helped broker a plea deal for jeffrey epstein acosta was a federal prosecutor in miami when epstein the billionaire was first accused used at sex crimes back in two thousand and seven now i've seen ended up doing only thirteen months in jail he was also allowed to leave six days a week to go to work he is now back in court on sex trafficking charges so how is his past affecting him now npr white house correspondent correspondent frank road just discovering the stories in her studios good morning good morning so there's one guy who can fire a alex akasa what's he saying that's right well right now president trump appears to be standing behind his labor secretary here's what he said yesterday when he was asked about it i feel very badly actually for secretary acosta because i've known him as being somebody that works so hard and has done such a good job i feel very badly about that whole situation but we're gonna be looking at that and looking at it very closely you know we've been here before where other top officials have fallen emitted drumbeat of calls to resign sustained reporting you can names health and human services secretary tom price interior secretary ryan zinke he pva administrator scott pruitt all these officials eventually resign despite similar words of support from the president i guess we should also noticed it in some ways this issue is personal for the president's he has a guy who's accused of doing something wrong in a case of sexual misconduct the the president's been accused of sexual misconduct he has a guy who's been accused of doing something wrong in a case involving jeffrey epstein who in the past was a friend of the president by the president's own account and they spent a lot of time together this is a case that the president has some involvement in yeah i mean the president obviously has this history he has the history with a with epstein and he is trying to back away from some of that we heard that yesterday as well despite a the reporting in the know what we know about their relationship he he is now saying that they are no longer friends that they had kind of falling out now a there is as you pointed out the fact that alex acosta did this plea deal long before he was labor secretary years and years ago a but senator tim kaine democratic senators senator said it wasn't illegal plea deal is there any way to say that it is illegal well i mean i think really is gonna be up to the courts decide that but earlier this year a federal judge did rule that prosecutors had violated federal law when they they did not tell victims about the plea deal because of that the justice department says they're investigating allegations of a professional misconduct by prosecutors in the case the white house is also looking into this is alex the cost of himself just going about his job is labor secretary not surprising he's defending himself he took to twitter saying they outcome with epstein with a good outcome a epstein went to jail he registered as a sexual offender 'em but obviously democrats want him to resign i i guess it's a detail of epstein going to jail that makes some people question this because he did go to a a a a facility but wasn't like six days a week allowed to leave and go to work there abject that's correct okay franco thanks so much thank you that's npr's frank on the onion and that's a first for this wednesday july tenth i'm steve inskeep and i'm noel king ended up first of course will be back tomorrow morning but in the meantime you should take out the indicator from planet money it's npr's daily podcast about money work in even after last week's earthquake north of las angeles earthquakes in fact indicator looks at how ls preparing for the big one the seismologist say is long overdue what do all these people have in common comma harris pizza the judge and bernie sanders they're all running for president and they all sat down with us on the npr politics podcast drugmaker booby grizzly we're going out on the trail with as many of the democratic presidential candidates can bring you in depth interviews

trump noel king steve inskeep washington president secretary mexico el paso npr six days forty five minutes seventeen years thirteen months eighteen years seventeen year two years one day
HHS update on regulation reform and the CARES Act Provider Relief Fund [PODCAST]

The Hospital Finance Podcast

15:44 min | 7 months ago

HHS update on regulation reform and the CARES Act Provider Relief Fund [PODCAST]

"Welcome to the hospital finance podcast you're go to source for information and insights that can help you stay ahead of the challenges impacting healthcare finance, and now the host of the hospital finance podcast Michael Pass Naughty. I, this is my day. Welcome back to the award. Wedding Hospital Finance podcast. Today's episode, we'll be talking about the state of Regulation Reform and the Cares Act Provider Relief Fund with Brennan Jenny Deputy. General Counsel and chief legal officer for the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid services within the Department of Health and human, services. She joined hhs from the Department of Justice where she served as a council in the civil division. Before joining DOJ, Brenna worked at the law firm of Sidley Austin and clerked for a judge on the United. States Court of Appeals for the eighth circuit. Brennan is a graduate of Dartmouth. College and she earned her masters in Public Health at the Harvard School of Public Health and her juris doctor from Harvard Law School Bradtha welcome to the show. Thanks Mike Brennan, one of the main roles of the Department of Health and Human Services is to regulate the industry. How has HHS under the current administration? Pursued that mission. From the start this administration has pursued a robust regulatory reform agenda during just second week in office. The president issued an executive order directing all agencies to alleviate unnecessary regulatory burdens under this executive order, each agency was tasked with identifying regulations to repeal replace or modify and more broadly to implement regulatory reform policies and initiatives. Excellent, talk about some of age S.'s ongoing Regulatory Reform Initiatives. Sure one major one is our deputy. Secretary has been leading what we call the regulatory sprints to coordinated care which aims to reduce regulatory burdens that hinder innovation. Pursuant to this initiative. In October of Twenty nineteen hhs issued long-awaited notices of proposed rulemaking regarding reforms to the anti kickback statute and the physician self referral also known as the stark law. The goal of the proposed reforms is to ensure that the anti kickback statute and the star Claude do not impede value based arrangements or coordination of care. The comment period for this propose the proposed rules closed on December, thirty first, and we are currently hard at work synthesizing the public feedback that we received. Brennan many healthcare regulations are complex. Are there things the department can do to reduce uncertainty in how these laws are applied? Yes and one way we have tried to do that also actually relates to the stark law in the most recent physician fee schedule final rule, we included significant revisions to the stark law advisory opinion. PROCESS HHS OFFERS ADVISORY OPINIONS IN ORDER TO PROVIDE clarity on how we interpret and apply stark law. We know that for providers. There's a lot riding on compliance with stark law. The changes we made in this rule are designed to streamline and speed up the stark law advisor, opinion process, and in particular to do so. We moved to a user fee structure. Some people might not know much about our stark law advisory opinion process, but HHS will actually issue an advisory opinion on whether particular arrangements would violate stark law if we conclude that an arrangement would not violate the stark law. Then HHS is bound by that determination and cannot impose sanctions on any of the parties to the arrangement. Under our new process HHS will also not impose sanctions on any other arrangement that is indistinguishable in all material, respects from the arrangement analyzed in prior advisory opinion and providers can seeking opinion on whether they're. Arrangement is indistinguishable from a prior arrangement. Does as you just frequently. Issue Advisory Opinions relating to the Stark Law. We don't I would say our stark law advisor opinion process is fairly under utilized right now, not counting the handful of narrow advisory opinions issued in two thousand four on Specialty Hospital. Moratorium CMS has issued only fifteen advisory opinions about twenty years in contrast our office of Inspector General which enforces the anti kickback. Statute has been averaging about fifteen kickback advisory opinions each year. The relative scarcity of Stark Advisory Opinion, factor opinions was one factor I would say motivating reforms to the process. We hope the new process. It's easier to take advantage of and that the healthcare industry will reach out for guidance on Stark Law. If HHS cashew more advisory opinions, it will provide greater regulatory clarity to the industry and reduce the stark. Laws Burton. Brennan. Another priority of the administration has been to reform the administrative state. How is HFS contributing to that effort? You Administration has tried to bring some consistency to how agencies issue binding regulations, one of the most significant initiatives was an executive order issued in October of last year, restricting the use of agency guidance documents before I get to that executive order a little background, the heart of modern administrative law is the requirement that agencies must provide the public with notice and an opportunity to comment before a new rule, imposing new obligations becomes final. This is referred to as notice and comment rulemaking. If agencies want to merely explain existing obligations, they can do so by issuing guidance documents which do not need to go through notice and comment rulemaking. But, too often agencies have worked around the requirements of notice and comment rulemaking by embedding new regulatory obligations and guidance documents. This executive order requires agencies to issue regulations governing their usage guidance. These. Regulations must seek to ensure that guidance does not purport to create new legal obligations for example, all guidance documents are required to clearly state on their face that they lacked the force ineffective law. But even where a guidance document does not include new requirements and merely interprets or summarizes an existing requirement, sometimes that guidance is buried in a sub page of some page of a website, and it's not always easy for regulated parties to find it. So, this order has simple solution. It requires agencies to post all of their guidance on a single searchable website. I didn't spend is not posted is deemed rescinded. Finally. The public must also be given an opportunity to petition any agency to modify or rescind one of its guidance documents. HHS is is working on implementing this executive order, and you should watch for further development soon. I imagine there's been some distraction from this Regulatory Reform Agenda lately as a result of covid nineteen. Let's talk about some of the work. HHS is done recently to oversee distribution of money from the coronavirus provider Relief Fund. This has been a major undertaking to say the Least Congress appropriated one hundred seventy five billion dollars in the cares act and paycheck, protection, program and Healthcare Enhancement Act to H S. she dispersed. Healthcare providers these are not loans their direct payments. The money must be used to prevent prepare for or respond to corona virus, and must be used to cover providers, healthcare, related expenses or lost revenue attributable to corona virus, but otherwise Congress gave providers a lot of discretion, and how to use the money and congress also gave the secretary of hhs a lot of discretion in how to distribute the money. So. Let's dig into that a little bit more. What have been the motivating principles for how h h US has distributed the money so far. We want our distribution of this money to be fast, transparent and fair within just two weeks of the president. Signing the cares act into law. We started distributing money. I can provide an overview of those distributions, but I encourage everyone to go to our cares act website for more information about each round of payment. Just go to HHS dot, Gov Slash Corona virus, and then Select Cares Act provided relief fund. I we made a general distribution of fifty billion dollars, and he provided that build Medicare fee for service and twenty nineteen was eligible to receive a payment. We allocated fifty billion dollars proportional to providers share of twenty eighteen net patient revenue. The goal was to give each provider a payment of approximately two percent of its net patient revenue regardless of payer mix. We have also done a series of targeted distribution. I made an allocation to almost four hundred hospitals who at the time had the majority of the country's cove in nineteen inpatient admissions and we've announced that we will be making a second round of high impact area payments. We also devoted and allocation to rural health care providers who often operate on center profit margins. We also had distributions, skilled nursing facilities, tribal hospitals and clinics and hospitals. Finally, we are doing a distribution of about fifteen billion dollars to Medicaid and chip providers that did not receive money in the general distribution. Although our website refers to this as a targeted distribution. It's really general distribution for providers who are not eligible to receive money the initial general distribution ways because they did not bill Medicare fee for service. Like the initial general distribution, the goal of this payment trench is to give Medicaid and chip providers approximately two percent of their net patient revenue. Providers must submit their growth revenues from patient care into our secure portal by July, twentieth providers can find a link to this portal, also on our cares act website. And what restrictions does HHS impose on Provider Relief Fund payments? Every provider that wishes to formally accept money received from Provider Relief Fund. Distribution, must I accept the terms and conditions associated with that payment, and they must do so within ninety days of receiving the money. Providers can find the terms and conditions on our website, but among other things they include certain restrictions on eligibility and specified permissible uses of the funds. To give more guidance to healthcare providers, we've also been posting a series of frequently asked questions on our website. We have dozens and dozens of questions organized by topic and often inspired by questions. We've been receiving from providers out in the field. I encourage. Review those if you have questions about your obligations under the terms and conditions. And what can providers use cares? ACT Money for. The money must be used to reimburse the provider for healthcare expenses were lost revenue attributable to corona virus, and the money must be used to prevent prepare for or respond to corona virus so to break that down a little further I. The term healthcare related expenses attributable corona virus is a broad term that can cover a range of items and services purchased to prevent prepare for or respond to corona virus. This includes supplies and equipment, workforce, training, building, temporary, surge, capacity, or reporting Kobe. Nineteen test results to state and federal governments. Providers may have incurred eligible expenses before they receive a provider relief on payment, and it's fine to use the payment to cover those expenses. The term lost revenues that are attributable to corona virus means any revenue that you as a healthcare provider lost due to coronavirus, this may include revenue losses associated with fewer patient visits canceled elective procedures or increased uncompensated care. Providers can use provide relief fund payments to cover any cost that the lost revenue otherwise would have covered so long as that cost prevents, prepares for or. Response to Corona virus. itch encourages the use of funds to cover lost revenue, so that providers can respond to this pandemic by maintaining healthcare delivery capacity. That means it's permissible to use the money to cover things like employee, payroll or health, insurance or rent or equipment leases, even if the provider had closed its doors temporarily during Kobe nineteen outbreak. Are there any common questions you've been getting about? The Provider Relief Fund payments. We've been getting a lot of questions of the Faq page will demonstrate, but two areas in particular come to mind. The first is reporting requirements. The terms and conditions refer to two types of reports one very specific and one fairly general. The specific one is a reference to quarterly reports, but must contain certain information. This is actually a requirement from the cares. Act itself, and it's not a reporting requirement that HHS created. We recently put out an Faq on this clarifying that HFS will be working to create a report with information that satisfies this requirement and so providers do not need to send that separate quarterly reports to hhs. However. The terms and conditions also reference general reporting requirements namely that providers must submit reports to the secretary as maybe specified in future program instructions. We will be expecting providers to submit reports about how they use the money, and we're going to be releasing guidance in your future on the timing and content of those reports. But the key point is nothing is due imminently and please don't try to send me your report I've had some providers tried to do this, but we need to channel everything through the proper process. Second. We've received a lot of questions about what to do. In the context of a change in ownership either one that happened before or after receipt of provider refund payment. I will say this has proven to be a very complicated fact, specific area, but there are restrictions on a recipients ability to transfer provider refund money to someone else so I strongly encourage everyone in this position to carefully review the Faq on our website, and if you do not think your question is answered, please contact our provider helpline at eight, six, six, five, six, nine, three, five to two. Brennan, thank you for all of the insights and for joining us today on the hospital finance podcast. Thanks a lot for having me. This concludes today's episode of the hospital finance. PODCAST for show notes and additional resources to help you protect and pass revenue at your hospital visit Bessler, dot com forward slash podcasts. The hospital finance podcast is a production of bessler smart about revenue tenacious about results.

HHS Stark Law Mike Brennan executive secretary HHS HFS advisor Court of Appeals Provider Relief Fund Regulation Reform Wedding Hospital Brennan Jenny president Harvard School of Public Healt DOJ General Counsel and chief lega Michael Pass
The Conservative Legal Resistance

Amicus with Dahlia Lithwick

1:00:43 hr | 1 year ago

The Conservative Legal Resistance

"Is by providing free digital skills workshops and one on one coaching in all fifty states helping businesses get online connect with new customers and work more productively from Connecticut to California Mississippi Minnesota Millions of American businesses are using Google tools to grow online the grow with Google Initiative Support Small businesses we laugh about it but it is actually not a funny thing when the president is calling some of the foremost legal minds you've all given service to this country it's more that we can do throughout the country high an welcomed in to president trump this week the president obliged by calling folks like them and other never-trumpers quote human scum he worked so hard within the federalist society and within the the conservative legal edifice to be called scum into be called illegal and unconstitutional behavior by the President that group called checks and balances recently issued a statement calling for quote an expeditious impeachment probe EXPEC in which a federal judge found that President Trump's proclamation of a national emergency along the southern border violated federal law because it illegally that's what the framers had in my and it really matters it's not just an extraction going forward we need to wreck acting attorney general for the Clinton administration in Nineteen ninety-three a job he took over from one William Bar he's a member of the firm at Epstein Becker Green he is also as I said a founding member of checks and balances and as I noted at the top he is also one of the lawyers who obtained a court ruling just a few our first guest this week is one of several very prominent conservative lawyers who have helped form a coalition seeking to check what they deem uh-huh I maybe we should start there your colleague in arms it checks and balances Paul Rosenzweig did right Curson was also on the winning side of this past month of a big lawsuit challenging the president's authority to build a border wall and we wanted to talk to him a pretty bracing piece in the Atlantic celebrating having been called a scum I wonder this is not funny is the Lieutenant Governor of Washington State and we're going to hear from him about reasons believe it or not to be optimistic about the law and the Constitution in October of twenty nineteen but but that is well Stewart served as assistant attorney general for the Civil Division of the Department of Justice from nineteen eighty nine to nineteen ninety-three and as a good deal you're going to be a surf you're going to be subjugated forever if we trend towards an authoritarian government we want a government of the people and is that a politics of inclusion positively and abundance thinking allow a blind Iranian American to win statewide then there's lowlifes and I I I wanNA give you a chance to respond because I think it's easy to laugh it off but it's actually not all that funny well to an intelligent informed person feeling a bit as though all those things just a boomer in the window of a speeding train but that's why we're here later on in the show we will talk to Cyrus Habib he the Appalachian says more about the speaker than it does about the subjects and all of us are people who I believe sir resistance within the conservative legal community so Stewart Carson welcome back to amicus to paraphrase the president greetings from the bottom of the pond. It's nice to speak with you when you resort to the kind of invective that we see I think it suggests that anybody who's intelligent that you have aw override Congress's decision to not fund further border wall construction so we wanted an update from him on that litigation and to generally have a check in on the trump left with the if not distinction at least general approbation None of us are looking for a job We we believe in the Constitution works for Damacus this leads podcast about the law and the Supreme Court and the rule of law I'm Elliot with wake I cover those things for slate and you would be forgiven if this weekend you are the of El Paso Texas and a public interest group called the border network they are directly affected by the President's proclamation I'm call you're suggesting that you don't have the horsepower to confront this directly let's talk about your lawsuit we had you on when it was first filed this is a separate them l. let's that's sad we at checks and balances and elsewhere are trying to get enough out there in terms of reasoned views suit from the California challenge to the border wall. This is a suit that it's an amazing coalition of co-counsel has come together on behalf of it lives are disrupted now of by the President's proclamation and fear of what's going on which of course was greatly aggravated when a nutcase decide constitution and we and we see the law unfortunately we have an administration that sees things a bit differently is one thing there's a mass out there that's that's called the president's base that unfortunately is relatively uninformed if this has resonance with as to why we believe what we believe that you know we believe that still we're children of the American revolution where people who are against authoritarian pressing traditional and fundamentally conservative not just valued but principles with in in terms of the way that we see and not just in terms of the fact that additions to a wall will be coming through the county itself but they're affected right now in terms of reputational damage people not wanting to risk doing business with them economic damage because funds are about to be diverted from Fort Bliss which is in El Paso it's the economic heart of that community and the border network which is an organization which under normal circumstances a lobbying group that ending a barrier with no disrespect intended to the plaintiffs in California who were talking about recreational injury and some other things are injury was pretty profound and Judge Brioni parts stayed a ruling from a federal court in California that was blocking the border wall expressly in California Arizona expressly because the did he come from elsewhere into El Paso and commit murder and so we were able to surmount the the St Pains for humane immigration policies has had to put aside its charter and it's become a counseling group dealing with people who who's lost the Supreme Court at least had I think some sympathy for the standing argument so not only is your case differentiated From that because you think you have a stronger claim to the US Supreme Court has blocked blocked this effort in California is that what you're saying that's largely correct it's not the only thing as I noted earlier Audi and and network officials talking about the immediate effect that the president unlawful proclamation is having on that the claim that we that we wonder with respect to the consolidated appropriations act is different from what was being argued in California of course it has a constitutional base in in Article One what the president has done here and what the court has found that the president is we also have different causes of action from what was abiding in California for one thing we've brought a claim under the Administrative Procedure Act Oh Paso County in Texas and the border network for Human Rights can you remind us about what your lawsuit is and how it differs from the other Litigation California we represent the count what is unlawfully divert monies from programs where Congress has specifically appropriated had things having to do with the he gave the plaintiff ten days to submit specifics he gave the government five days to respond. I think we're still in that window correct me if I'm wrong Sir wrote at length about it and very responsibly so he understood that we had testimony through affidavits were prepared otherwise to present it from was having on them at least until the the the the court's order folks who were following these lawsuits noted in some dismay that in July the Supreme Court where Congress itself has said that funds can't be redirected and in the wake of the administration having asked Congress for full funding for all for will force no intellectual force no substantive force behind any of the arguments here that you're making you're just name calling now to satisfy the educated as is we'll we'll see what happens but we're standing under the umbrella that Justice Jackson described in the steel seizure case youngstown sheet and tube and Nissim we don't have to take up arms are our arms are are are the pen in the in the word and as I say if you if you standing but I think what you're saying and I just WanNa say it explicitly is that that stronger claim to standing is going to hopefully what gets you and your view past the hurdle where military military housing based development things along things that affect the well being of of military members and their and their families in an Appropriations Act Tehri responsibilities its power of the purse and if indeed the attempt to use of various military appropriations statutes wall a transcontinental wall and having been denied that by Congress so our focus is a little bit different judge Brioni you're correct we have filed the the plaintiffs have filed we're seeking injunctive relief that is consistent with the court's order in other words no spending chance to respond I think the government will argue among other things that the injunction that we're seeking is too broad that it constitutes a nationwide injunction back to help craft something that is workable or is this going to be another sand in the gears moment well I don't know if it'll be sent to the gears but I doubt that it's going to be very cooper each to siphon money out of out of the out of the place where Congress intended it to go if it's illegal in one place it's illegal every place holidays appropriations act was so clear that he ruled on that basis so that along with standing is what is what distinguishes us and the congressional the Consolidated Appropriations Act we'll hear from the government in a couple of days as to what its response is going to be and in your is practiced the wise doctrine of constitutional avoidance and noted that it didn't have to reach a whole bunch of the issues because the violation of the CIA the on the on the wall allowed from the couple of provisions that the administration is attempting to use to evade Do you have any worries that you're looking down the barrel then appellate court that is pretty fond of Donald trump or at least more inclined to say about the ninth circuit but when trump was sued he said we're going to be very successful I think we might do very well even in the ninth circuit it's an open enclosed case the kinds of executive powers that he's asserting are palatable for the judiciary that may or may not be the case but I'll tell you why we're in the Fifth Circuit Lisa again part of a pattern of de legitimizing the ninth but you filed in the fifth circuit is is notoriously conservative brought in in the deep South in the places where where the action was taking place where it matter the constitution criminal cases of course the framers had But I think that will miss the point because this is a question of geography this is a question of of spending congress I believe if anybody's presented a good case to challenge administrate administration action it's it's it's us now judge didn't craft an injunction rates a sense so far is the government been more or less responsive or you going to get either a bait and switch or a delay or I mean do you have some sense that they're going to come back active either I mean it's now it it hasn't been up to now and I don't blame the lawyers in the federal programs branch of the Civil Division Awful Lemme there's never a guarantee in any case like this the supreme court has always resistant in in matters that where they're interbranch conflicts and happy to to litigate at the center of things in the eye of the storm now that's one reason why we're there I mean we have a client who's there I wasn't the only one who advocated being there but speaking for myself it's always been my view that you try a case talking about carrying out the framers intent being faithful to the constitution as it is not dealing with a a constitution that we don't Tom but in it in addition to that I'm not pessimistic about the fifth circuit either we're making a very conservative argument this is not about what our immigration getting the restoration or the reestablishment of king that power should be separated among three branches checks and balances the is the slogan by which that has become known but I'm one who in the first Bush administration argued for virtually unlimited Congress to spend to appropriate spend money here's a case where the executive is arrogating legislative power to itself and I feel comfortable in are making that argument to them amicus is brought to you by First Republic Bank business owners know that that's something that a conservative court ought to understand I know several of the Conservative judges on the fifth circuit quite well with the structural constitution and if you follow things did many of us have done with organizations like the Federalist Society Things Oh a client's company and goals providing personalized customer service financial expertise and customized solutions not just for today but for years to come and whether a client needs Business First Republic Bank provides the kind of exceptional service customers deserve to learn more visit first republic dot com today member FDIC equal has the key to success is to make sure their customers are well taken care of First Republic Bank understands just how important that is and that's why the first republic team goes above come back and say is we know that we're going to get injunctive relief I mean all the court has asked us to do is just tell us what what it is that we think we ought to get and and give the government war power That that the president has an I still I still believe that but when I say virtually unlimited there is one limitation and that's the article one powers are doing what they're being instructed to do but it's clear that it's the the will of the chief executive to take a hard line position I imagine what the government is going Englander friends I am so excited to announce that I'll be in Miami on November thirteenth and I hope to see many of you there we are teaming up with the Miami Book Fair Air but within the federal government to deal with questions of factions as as Madison pointed out to deal with with the issues of prevent George Conway has very much taken it upon himself to think about the president's mental fitness he's written extensively about that Paul Rosenthal in the place that is most affected by with with a client that that really has an interest in the Kennedy Administration the Civil Rights cases were overthrowing the rule of a King that we'd better divide government and Sarah in several ways I have powers that are retained by the states that's not an issue here revolving line of credit to meet working capital needs a flexible checking account for high volume transactions a stand by letter of credit alone to finance expanding offices or agree out the boundaries between the president's power and congressional power and I wonder I mean I think it's a lane in some ways it's so abstract Stewart and the certified as a matter of of logic and law so they'll no doubt be a debate about that but I really do think we have better of it it's interesting because you mentioned the mind that criminal defendants would be tried by their peers where they lived and I feel much the same way about that in in every case I'm it's it's the client's home ground it's it's it's territory it's defending it's itself it's it's it's community values in its in its home a clear what when George Conway rates about narcissistic personality disorder what he's trying to do can you explain in a very very concrete way learn more at google dot com slash grow that's google dot com slash grow never gonna get so the idea that you know Donald trump can do whatever he wants because he's the president and you know whatever whatever valence you WanNa put on it that his executive slow that you describe I'm doing exactly what you're suggesting I'm speaking to people who have gone to law school or or who have studied policy power is King Lake and I wonder how you I also want you to concretize what you're saying and help folks who are struggling to understand it's very visit slate dot com slash live hope to see their let's now return to my conversation with Stewart Carson one of the things that I've been thinking about you have been watching the friends of prominent I know you're one of the founding members of checks and balances is that you're all self sorting kind of picking Elaine I think leg has picked a another route and you have really think it seems to me been laser focused on very structural arguments like the one you just laid out about I am beyond to ensure that its business banking clients are treated with the utmost care it is not simply a banking transaction a personalized banker from first republic it's too the reporters committee for the freedom of the press for very very special amicus live show I'll be joined by an all star panel of fantastic female journalists Laura Moscoso from the the arguments that you're making a are both incredibly compelling to somebody who went to law school and yet I think it's very very ephemeral to somebody who just buys in for folks who haven't thought about it as surreally as you're describing what it is that you feel is at risk let me deal with that on two levels first in the Centra Deputy Small Norodom Torres for El Nuevo Herald and Emily Michaud of the Miami Herald tickets to the show are free for more information and tickets policy ought to be we want to have a better immigration policy but that'll be for the congress to to decide and it and it probably carry over into the election this has to do have one that arguably assigns rights and benefits at that's not our constitution our constitution is one that recognized in in parallel to other arguments at the same time I'm a party to letters that deal with the president's tolerate all science majors of whatever I it's not just intelligent people but it's to educate people who can act on this and do something about it it it's sending their their constituents the house the same way we just need a more productive legislature is unpopular as the president might be the congress really different we don't want to have a government that in the name of promoting the economic wellbeing of people sponsors anti-trade policies bad when they put a second amendment in the constitution when they separated powers and when we had our first President George Washington here's the issue and it's the issue for people ordinary people who are concerned about gun rights and a whole host of other issues what were the framers getting narrower audience than things that my friend George has been doing but that aside if you're asking me let me synthesize this for the mass public a refused to be crowned king which was offered to him several times and I'm now talking to the guy in West Virginia in public there's no question about it but as I'm looking at the polling data that I'm seeing the public is becoming better and better informed what we hope for on on the conservative side is that by election time there are rational choices to make that we who might not have taken much civics as as others and hasn't studied the constitution and and some of these somewhat technical issues that I'm we're all doing these these different things the so-called cerebral arguments that I'm making are indeed targeted to a perhaps that Congress isn't doing its job that the Republicans in the Senate or viewing themselves as a parliamentary party that's not what they're supposed to be they're not electing the president there ah both to the left and right of center that is unrepresented now well I condemn the executive in in many ways it's also then require subsidies within the government that could better go to things that actually would would help people this ultimately is a bread and butter issue yeah there's driving about and doesn't bridle when when they hear a president say that article two allows me to do anything I want this is the second one Nixon said that too it's not just an abstraction we don't want a government that tells us what the what the truth is when the facts are decided are if we trend towards authoritarian government we want a government of the people and that's what the framers had in mind and it really matter APPs who's WHO's concerned about his job future and the like of that I mean the response is you're never going to get a good deal you're going to be a surf you're going to be subjugated forever is just as as at least as unpopular there's a reason for that paying attention to the constitution as a way to come out from under that rock attraction between it but we're we're trying to avoid dictatorship that's not an abstraction that's my answer to you this ought to matter we we need better role in an and other matters that that are that can be just as dangerous there's too much of the electorate perhaps the majority of the electorate and we're being challenged as never before in that area this is just such an unusual administration and I hope that that that people points that I'd like you to respond to if you would one was litigation just too slow all these cases are just on spooling demand that you and the checks and balances crew have made which is that's why impeachment impeachment is the only solution the courts cannot do this checking the haven't swung too far to the left with an untenable policies that that involve the government in economic control and ultimately the responsibility lies with the people I mean when when the Constitutional Convention Presi- presented the Constitution understand that and it matters to them their problems are not being solved they should know that and there's a reason why it's so I had Larry tribe on the last show and he made he's the all deliberate speed locution but there this is all happening too slow to check this president and then I think he braided that into argue I'm in Franklin was asked what he thought what had happened and he he said we've given you a constitution republic if you can keep it related Louis when you call for an impeachment because it needs to go fast do you sense that there is enough time for an investigation and a try and so I think I want you to respond stuart if you would to a two part question which is a big win on the wall congratulations none of this is going to happen fast enough and Asian Strategy and the impeachment that his only really just begun to unspools an investigation to slow let's look at it in a different way let's step back war and no successful war in any mass scale can exist without a number of different fronts a number of different ways to attack the enemy here the enemy is an authoritarian lawless ex executive the litigation is part of that there are various other things investigations in the like of that that some of them are within normal process for example one of the potentially impeachable offenses has to do with the Ukrainian situation l. to really preempt what I think you and I agree could be catastrophic outcomes are both these processes both load litigate Giuliani but apparently Giuliani himself so there's another aspect where there are a criminal cases referrals from the Muller Investigation outcome to that in a second in the context of impeachment but at the same time it's clear that the United States attorney for the Southern District of New York that is somebody who's in the that are in court impeachment is different story and this is something that I don't think is widely understood and I certainly hear a lot of ignorance from a little short litigation is slow and it's hard to know when you when when would get an ultimate resolution for example of our case if it goes up to the Supreme Court and hits there consistent with the responsibilities of the office abuses of power and they're the house is well within its prerogatives to have an investigate sadly rip Republican critics of what is going on in the House with regard to the investigation with regard to some of this conduct they're saying well this or that isn't a crime there's very well understood this sequential matter of impeach and then the various jurisdictions could get their cases actually her the president can be investigated and indeed it suggests that he can even be indicted just can't be can't be tried while his office and so the the free is what high crimes and misdemeanors or about you alluded to that earlier high crimes and misdemeanors are not infractions that are prosecuted under the Criminal Law it's conduct this department and this administration is actively pursuing a criminal investigation not just against these tweedle dee and tweedle dumbs who are associates of Mr in the summer especially when they're away and they don't get to it and we roll into into the high election season that all these things can happen but step back from that a second think of this and so it can't be prosecuted and so there's a question of the Justice Department's memorandum about prosecution more to come on that but the framers understood that too and he tried in case while he's in office I think is correct but that the memorandum itself suggests more than suggests states that the Asian the Justice Department Memorandum of the ultimate conclusion of which I agree with by the way having to do with whether a president can be of what they think is in their best political interests. I think you just said the single most important thing that I've noted this week which is we're starting to map this no quid pro quo language onto this there was no crime language and we're Matt Whitaker said at this week who is more responsible for the bill of impeachment that was was prepared and and ultimately the president's resignation so who it indeed there they were there so to go back to your original question there are a number of fronts here ultimately it may be that they'll be a political solution he's involved in the case ultimately the responsibility here is GonNa is GonNa lay with the people both at the polls and in informing their legislators now my sense that quote no quid pro quo has become the new no collusion it's something that is being imported from the criminal law it was what the timeframe will be Larry Tribe is corrected litigation is slow it's only one aspect of this we're pursuing it because we believe that we're right he does too obviously would even if trump were reelected recall nine hundred sixty eight when Nixon was reelected by a vast majority and yet once essentially a lame duck it's become the line of defense a lot of Republicans in the Senate or saying no crime and I just want to reference you wrote an article in July in the Atlantic into an impeachment inquiry that is you just pointed out has nothing to do with federal statutory crimes necessarily abuse of power is not arguing for seeing more of the mull report in knowing more about the obstruction allegations there but you made this argument I want to quote it to you quote this has been named is a question of collusion collusion's not a term employed in federal criminal law and the fixation on it has been a diversion in quote. I wonder if you just respond is that if there's no quid pro quo in the conversation around Ukraine then this whole thing goes away can you respond to my sense that no quid pro quo is a crime says says the defense here but we're not looking for crimes I just wonder if you think that we're being Jujitsu in some sense yet again by claiming now what does that mean besides the fact that it arguably as an impeachable offense but if proved it shows that the president the fear went out of him and and Republicans stepped up to the plate indeed led the action Howard Baker was a Republican and certainly no one flation of quid pro quo and no criminal offense that's wrong too but you're right that the fundamental issue that the Congress has received an emolument because that's something of value which the emoluments clause speaks about it's a violation of the Federal Election Campaign Law because something of value has been seve that is a benefit to the campaign but his unreported and so those are criminal matters now whether they're ultimately provable that goes way beyond this Here's here's the issue I mean I think in the interviews that have been leaked this week but in the transcript the call itself it is very clear that it was transmitted report triggered a impeachment against a Bill Clinton but I wonder if your sense is that all of these process arguments about how the process is in the other line of attack which seems to be that this impeachment effort is unfair because it's you know not affording the president into the leader of the Ukraine both by the president and otherwise by by the agents of of the president that everybody's entitled to a trial ultimately the president if impeached will get one and if not out of office and indicted we'll we'll get a trial sair to the president are rooted in something that is there's some principle here that is compelling an interesting or if this is kind of more of process because it hasn't yet turned into a formal vote proceeding with impeachment barring everything we know about how The star is being deployed in exactly the way no collusion once was it is your summary is correct but there's a fundamental problem with that transcends this this would have characterized as sand in the gears these are the same kinds of arguments that many Democrats were making when the Clinton impeachment military aid was good it was gonna be withheld unless an investigation was undertaken into the president's political opponents that's a quid pro quo like a grand jury now crime shows on TV don't show Grand Juries law and order doesn't deal with grand juries they just deal with with with with going back hundreds of years before the creation of the American Republic the House of Representatives was intended to act better which which really is a screen that has very little to do with the law but the framers understood this and the way the process was was underway and to step back from that it's an argument that's directed Zor Meredith it's at the trial stage where you have the right of confrontation where you have the right to introduce evidence to call witnesses of your own to get the kind of process to see the the laws of the nation are carried out and before we leave impeachment Stewart. I wonder if you could talk for a moment about is considering is an abuse of power whether the president's provable actions whether there's probable cause to believe that the president's provable action aw is carried out in the way the constitutional provision or carried out is much the same as you pointed out earlier as it was a long history of in English law sorry if you will under the command of the chief justice who presides over the impeachment trial and there's where due process obtains argument and that is it's pretty clear there was a quid pro quo and that there were crimes and let me tell you what I at least probable cause to believe that there were yes violate the take care clause of the constitution violate the emoluments clause of the constitution and violate the president's oath of Office Gene Administrative Review into a criminal investigation and I think I should be clear that we don't know who has leaked this and maybe I don't cereals you don't get to sit in with the grand jury you don't get to cross examine witnesses the grand jury is a fact-finding body that brings charges if it thinks charges Nick Charles free did very persuasively in a very fine letter that he wrote to The Washington Post in the wake of that unfortunate Cipriani about the argument that's being made about due process is a diversion it was a diversion when it was made by Democrats it's a diversion when it's being made by reports that's well understood it's this bipartite process the house serving as a grand jury the Senate serving a trial court that people need to understand you know what I've read in the paper either a an unauthorized leak or a controlled leak suggests that there's been some escalation to people who watch a lot of television and who watch crime shows it ought to be explained that I'll explain now as my colleague us that supporters of the president are are are yelling about it's a dual process it parallels what actually exists in federal opinion and those are facts and however the investigation started we now know of things that we really need to art to how the investigation began there's either direct door or constructive coordination of of arguments I don't know anything Criminal Law but you don't look at that at the house as a as a thing unto itself as as as a completed matter all the house does is if the new the the contours of how truthful that is but I would I find that sort of Defcon level terrifying and unacceptable cyber-security warfare being conducted against the American electoral process and American policy uses to do so to bring to bring charges under which the president will be tried it's up to the Senate to decide to sit as I wondered if you'd help explain if that is in fact correct what that means well I don't know anything for sure because like you it is also clear to me that there was a substantial basis to undertake an inquiry into the activities of rush and I also note that in a brief that has been filed in the last couple of days by a General Flynn in the District Court said I should indeed encouragement of of racism of of ethnic stereotyping of violating the the rule of law to bunch of concrete way so no about and react to you raise an alarm to me the alarm would be however the investigation comes out and I don't express an opinion about it because I just don't aw and the intention of the the leadership of Russia to manipulate not just election results but public forth any number of allegations with respect to the conduct of the FBI and the government that the attorney general's probe into the origins of the Russia investigation has somehow morphed from a clue lyles where you get due process but in a grand jury proceeding in a in law state law and federal law You don't get access to me by not only Russia but other countries as well I mean we have to deal with with with China and state sponsored organizations Iran North Korea but Russia in particular if we lose pige though I think we have to turn to what I think is the most alarming news the came at the end of the week which is reporting from NBC beyond that the whole thing is very troubling It will be what it will be I mean I there's just too much that obtains that we don't know about but light of that we are in a tremendous trap where responsibility for our government will be seized from our hands and placed in the in the hands of of foreign for Surrey so that to me is the alarming issue about this I don't know where this investigation will will go there certainly was some some conduct that I wouldn't approve of have the factual knowledge to do so but however that comes about it should not obscure the fact that there is ample evidence of entirely and in the review of the conduct of the FBI in particular but other aspects of the government with respect to how this whole thing got going case there is language I just to put meat on the bones here quote in this case high ranking FBI officials orchestrated an ambush but whether that rises to a criminal level or not I can't say and I just want to read from that the pleading you just referenced in the Michael Flynn attempts to influence the American public policy and American election behavior and however that investigation got started there's plenty of with this language of the real conspiracy the real crime here is the massive corruption in the department in the in the subcontinent in Turkey in Syria and how that seems to have influenced the administration and how Russia and not only Russia attacking the Justice Department attacking Investigators is not simply to try to clear Michael Flynn or to try to clean eight others but I worry so much about what it means as you say in the fact of unequivocal evidence that foreigners are tampering with the next election itself and in in our national security apparatus and I think that the point you're making is this feels a lot like the Ukraine ask it's you're in our public policy in our elections and that cannot go unaddressed that is a fundamental problem that threatens our democracy and in nineteen ninety-three he is a member of the firm of Epstein Becker Green he is a founding member of checks and balances and he's become a really I think self which is we're GonNa throw into shadow you know the the the real corruption that is happening is elsewhere and the effect here of quite as far as your I I'm not going to imply intention -ality on the part of of Bill Bar and the Justice Department that will take its own pace and singularly important voice in the conservative effort to talk about the need for checks and balances on this executive at this time Stewart it is a pleasure Arruda Giuliani or the president but it's to sort of deflect the actual harms here which are oh my goodness this is happening and to try to increase legal investigation and in the interest of full disclosure. I'm sure that I've raised it on on on behalf of clients in in the past ever is involved in this it shouldn't be allowed to be a diversion from the fact that there's a real problem here that has nothing to do with it that we have interference by a foreign power so these are these are Flynn's arguments I'll just leave it at this the fundamental point that you're making I hope is is clear to me is that they had questioned Mr Flynn but for the purpose of trapping him into making statements they could alleges false end quote and and the document you're referencing is replete I feel better about what you eat but sometimes it's really hard to prepare healthy meals that also tastes good but here's the good news eating better doesn't have to be boring or bland enter on the other hand I certainly know what the evidence is about Leonson occur encouragement the the role of Russia in dealing with questions shen that instead throwing dirt around and seeing if you can somehow destabilize the very forces that are meant to protect against that prepared to go I note that the arguments that you're describing are made by Michael Flynn to try to get himself exonerated and this issue of perjury trap is something that we hear in every it's that we've got a problem that needs to be addressed and it's a far more important problem then whatever the outcome is of the investigation of how the inquiry gut started Stuart Gerson served as assistant attorney general for the Civil Division of the Justice Department from nineteen eighty nine to nine hundred ninety three and his acting attorney general for the Clinton administration congestion and help with healthy weight loss and I have to tell you now it's as easy as opening a package heating it up my kids liked it too and the menu with the cars meal programs breakfast lunch and dinner are delivered right to your door ready to eat anywhere in the US their meals are specifically designed to enhance your energy I don't know what the US attorney in Connecticut who's leading this investigation is GonNa is GonNa do so I won't attribute intention alley the government and aw Sikora they make organic ready to eat meals with nutritious and really frankly yummy plant based ingredients that are designed to help you look and feel like you're bestself so have you back on the show you're welcome anytime we're going to pause now to hear from one of our great new sponsors and that is Sikora you want of chef crafted dishes changes every week so you never get bored and along with your meals you get supplements and tease I'm actually drinking one of their teeth now and support from a certified health coach to help be stay on track Sikora has received rave reviews from Vogue oop The New York Times and more and as of right now Kara is offering our listeners sixty dollars your own pace better help has licensed professional counselors they specialize in depression and anxiety navigating family conflicts and so much more and you can see if people have to be changed at the FBI or there's some issue there that's an action that will take its own course I can't comment on it I don't know the evidence so why not get started today go to better help dot com slash amicus simply fill out a questionnaire to help them assess your needs and get matched with the counselor love that's better help dot com slash amicus Cyrus Habib is the lieutenant governor of Washington State elected in November twenty six therefore you better help is super convenient you connect with your professional counselor in a safe and private online environment and you can get help on your own time at you agile secure video or phone sessions plus chat and text with your therapist anything you share with your counselor is confidential and if you aren't happy for any reason you can request off their first order when they go to car dot com slash amicus that's Sikora S. 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The Oath with Chuck Rosenberg: Joyce Vance

MSNBC Rachel Maddow (audio)

1:00:30 hr | 1 year ago

The Oath with Chuck Rosenberg: Joyce Vance

"I do solemnly swear I will support and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign the master that I will bear to faith and allegiance to the scene that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion and that I will well and faithfully is Angeles raised by a single parent mom who taught preschool and was very dedicated to education so I had a very sort of a rich upbringing welcome to the oath I'm Chuck Rosenberg and I am honored to be your host for another thoughtful conversation with a fascinating guest many of you know Joyce Vance from Peter Joyce handled a wide variety of important cases including a difficult and disturbing corruption case involving a small Alabama police department she is here too Amalgam delivered to his home that album also grievously injured judge Vance's wife the cold-blooded murder of Joyce's father-in-law inspired her to become her impressive work as legal analyst on MSNBC before taking on that role Joyce was the United States attorney for the Northern District of Alabama in Birmingham from his second marriage wonderful so I assume you graduated from High School in Los Angeles too I did barely because I spent a lot of time at the beach but I did manage to get they decided to move their Bob is Bob Vance and he's a judge he is as we like to say at the family dinner table not a very good one but he's no he is a really get judge he's a State Court judge in Birmingham and is just tremendously dedicated to what he does you have many fans some of whom no this many of whom I assume do not but your father the prosecutor in her adopted home state of Alabama it also helped to shape her views on criminal justice issues including the death penalty as a federal process was interested in a lot of different things and I benefited from that exposure siblings no siblings with my mom she and my dad were divorced and I've got four half brothers see where I wasn't and ironically go to work at the Justice Department but I had a case in Jackson Mississippi a really interesting case was spending a lot of time in Birmingham and ultimate share her story with you Joyce fans welcome to the earth thanks for having me check Oh it's a pleasure to have you tell us a little bit about Joyce fans I grew up in the suburbs of voice shares a deeply personal and tragic event in her own life on the show in nineteen eighty nine her beloved father-in-law Federal Appellate Court Judge Robert Vance was killed in law. Bob's father was also a judge can you talk about him yeah my father in law was an Eleventh Circuit Judge Federal Court of Appeals Judge and before that he l. a. and it means Lower Alabama but actually grew up in the real la after college after Bates you went to the University of Virginia for law school dead I went to honestly fun and very loyal group if people I'm still very close with most my law school friends will how did you end up in Alabama my husband is from Alabama we met each other you love about it the people you know we had a wonderful class we came from a lot of different backgrounds brought a lot of different beliefs to the table but it was a trick other in law school I was working for a firm in DC. I was working for Fox when we got engaged was he a classmate he was a classmate it's actually worse than that Akil appreciate this we were in the same small section which navy as sort of like Marian a member of your family but nonetheless Bob it intended to move up to DC through high school and then went to college in Maine Bates College in Lewiston Maine we think of you as an Alabama woman but the roots are really on the West Coast we stay in Alabama we say it had been plaintiff's lawyer and was involved in some voting rights litigation was involved in litigation on behalf of consumers before he went on the bent TV a Wa Wa. I should point out the defending national champions in basketball I was there during the Ralph Sampson years it was I loved law school he was murdered in nineteen eighty nine by a mail bomb sent by an individual named Moody who sent mail bombs to win a number of people and was ultimately caught and prosecuted in both the federal and state systems you were married when your father in law was murdered I was we had been married Bob's mom and endowed worst sitting around little white table in the breakfast room when he opened the box that contained the bomb she was sitting right across from him Blah years earlier and got married in Alabama not at home in Los Angeles. I've always been really grateful that we made that decision because my father in law who had two sons and no daughters really enjoyed the fact that we got married there tell me a little bit about the day you learned of his murder and by the way in that bombing. Your mother-in-law was seriously injured so she was wounded very seriously I was in New York taking depositions in case Bob my husband had come up to meet me for the weekend so we were actually had a history of building bombs he had a ex wife who had been hurt when one of his bombs when she discovered it in the home he just seemed like one of these people who was thoroughly amazing woman she since passed away she immediately realized a couple of things simultaneously that he was dead that it was a bomb and that other people that she loved primate y you know I think it's hard to know what people's motives are but he had had a criminal conviction could not get it removed so he could go to law school ah unhappy with his own life and took it out on other people ironically tragically your father in law had nothing to do with Moody they never intersected in there Bob to think twice about opening the box came in the mail was killed instantly he was killed instantly and it was it was loud my mother in law who was a really are at risk so with horrible injuries she got in her car and they lived sort of in a area where the houses weren't close together and she drove to their closest neighbor end told him we need to call Frank Johnson. Bob's just been killed we need to make sure frank doesn't open mail Frank Johnson was the judge on the eleventh circuit who had a tremendous national lives in any way no in no way at all and in fact when he sent the bomb he used return address from one of the other judges on the court so there was no reason for this track record for civil rights and mom was really worried about him amazing with what had just happened to her that she had the presence of mind to do that in New York with friends from Birmingham and with some friends from law school when we learned about it and flew back home right away you mentioned moody had said the Bomb Has Walter Lee Roy he was a remarkable woman moody killed others he did he killed an Alderman in Savannah Georgia named Robbie Robinson who had a Alabama subsequently prosecuted a capital case and by the way the prosecutors in the federal case are quite well known Louis Freeh was that was sent to the main court on the eleventh circuit and Atlanta was intercepted it was intercepted this was close to Christmas it was a week ahead of Christmas so one lead prosecutor in that case assisted by at the time a a young lawyer named Howard Shapiro and they came down from the southern district of New York to work on all of eating dinner with them and spent a lot of time with them always remember that when my mother in law who was in surgery and was intimated when she could finally speak doc record of doing civil rights work also sent a bomb to the N. double ACP in Florida and then one to the eleventh circuit to the main court in Atlanta another one both the state and in the federal systems it's a bit unusual it is there was no death penalty in the federal system at the time that he was prosecuted and so the state of on the hospital she had had extensive surgery still had some nails in her body they stayed in her body for the rest of her life and she she looked up at my husband and the first thing she said was I'm sorry about your daddy you've told me a story about going to visit your mother-in-law in the hospital which is I think charming the mind sharing that so I was unexpectedly pregnant with our first child just a couple of weeks pregnant when Bob's dad was killed and I went to visit my mother in law in good thing that happened was there was slower mail delivery in those last two parcels were intercept for they could go off what happened Moody Meaty was ultimately prosecuted in the cases Louie Freeh later served as the director of the FBI and Howard as his general counsel. It's a small world right your mother-in-law and your father in law obviously victims of the crime but you bob as well you know it was really hard for my husband he loved his daddy so much we were close to his parents we used to spend Sunday nights family who felt very strongly the death penalty needed to be sought against the man who had killed their father brother cousin that was exactly what you would expect she was depressed she was sad she was down and I told her that I was pregnant and she was you know she was happy she wasn't exuberant but she was happy and I came back here again later that afternoon and she there was no one in her hospital room and I was frantically worried because her injuries were serious recover initially Howard Shapiro Louie Freeh Convicted Moody in Federal Court he was also convicted in State Court and received a sentence of death can you talk about that at all before then and she got up and she said I've got to get ready I've got to go home I have a grandbaby becoming and that I think you know by the grace of God was what helped her happened and my mother-in-law were able to watch that trial which I think was very good for them the state case was a little bit slower came a couple years later was your mother-in-law we know the federal conviction came relatively quickly the case was tried in Minnesota because there were concerns about conflicts if it was tried in the south both my call a witness at trial she was a witness in both cases and she was a good witness I have to say I've put a lot of victim witnesses on the stand in in my life long lag between sentencing and execution something that I experienced personally is how you view can change over time and back now in the State Prosecution he was found guilty and in fact was sentenced to death he was sentenced to death and because there's father in law I did have a view on it at the time and I I was strongly in favor of the death penalty in this particular case I loved my father in law cuter about whether the death penalty serves the the deterrence interests that we think it serves it just felt like the wrong way to address so I went flying out to the nurse's station and asked where she was and they sort of laugh a little bit and they said you know after you left she got out of bed she had not gotten out of bed other family members I think people really do change I think there's an instinctive reaction right in that moment where you're searching for some way of making the house was his his sister in a number of other family members. My mother-in-law never was a supporter of the death penalty and her point of view was it win bring so the death penalty is always one of those issues that people can debate do have a view on it at the time do you think it was the appropriate sanction for the man who killed if you know she just was a genuine person and out to she was when she testified we had the two different prosecutions the second one was a capital case there were some members of our how that emotional response that you have in the first year after you you lose somebody that you love in that very violent manner I ultimately came to believe me mother-in-law was was right that there is nothing that would bring Bob back and it really was part of a change in my viewpoint about the death penalty did you notice a similar change in was I mean you know I was mournful it was a terrible loss in our lives but ultimately in addition to having some really pragmatic concerns as a process effort that's being spent on that sort of capital litigation and the issues that are unique to death penalty litigation could those resources be better in this situation of of loss your father in law was murdered in nineteen eighty nine Walter Leroy Moody was finally put to death by the State of Alabama and was emotional about losing him emotional mount him never getting to meet his first grandchild and very much eye for an eye at that point in time sounds some way of restoring order to your life the death penalty may be seems easy for people in that situation I'm not proud of that it's just where I thousand eighteen twenty nine years long gap right I'll talk about in a cold way and say that takes a lot of prosecutorial resources there's a lot of spent in other ways you know that's a judgment call for policy makers I did have capital case in my office that was started by my predecessor she served terrific prosecutor by the way in a good boss great guy it was really watching Louis Freeh and watching Howard and watching this team of FBI ATF street it was their entire approach they were so rigorous they were so ethical there were multiple potential defendants that they had to make decisions about little punishment off of the table simply because it's so difficult in so many ways to get there when moody was executed Were you given the option to attend federal office space with my father-in-law they knew him they interacted with them so it was in so many ways very personal Birmingham's a small community but that Rian covered by secrecy or or for other reasons and they did it so well and I was so impressed and I felt an obligation to try to pay that forward this may be weren't interested I think made our peace with it years ago as a result of your father in law's murder you became a federal prosecutor personally I imagine they did and my office was co located I say my office the US Attorney's Office in Birmingham was co located in the same district of Virginia every time we saw him he talked about how much he loved his job as a prosecutor working in the criminal division so it was maybe in the back of my mind agents who we hadn't previously known in Birmingham it wasn't just their commitment to getting the right guy to protecting the community by taking a bad guy off the for eight years I served for close to eight years by the time I left my office that case was only just close to being resolved and the resolution would be to take they had to think about the evidence they had to deal with the victim's family that really wanted to know a lot of information that they couldn't share with victims in part because it was grandeur preschool I had loans but we made a decision that it was right for us for our family and so with my husband's blessing I am joined the US Attorney's office I was a federal prosecutor we work together one summer when we were both in law school remain very good friends he and Barbara very good friends I knew that he had gone to the eastern court the four of us took it together the following week remember that occasion idea I remember it very well my husband came our oldest child was in a stroller inspired you it really did and it was it's hard to leave private practice when you've got student loans and as the kid of a single parent mom during the Bush administration I was one of the original lawyers in it and then became the chief of the appellate division several years down the road became the acting apparent but for agents and prosecutors the murderer of a federal judge is an assault on the system they take all crime seriously but this they also join the office at the same time as to other people and then another lawyer came on board the following week so I took the oath internally that morning but in I attorney in April of two thousand and nine and then was confirmed in August tell me a little bit about your tenure as an a USA I don't know if they do this in all offices but the practice in our office has always been to go across the street to the Federal Court House and be sworn in by a federal judge in there I became the United States attorney I was in our our criminal division for about ten years was moved over to our appellate division we formed an appellate division God and how important it had been for her to stand up in court and say I represent the people of the United States was at the best job you've ever had there's just no doubt I mean seriously injured but we tried the case and something really interesting happened during the case on cross examination Shen of one of the witnesses it became apparent that the defense lawyer had been able to access some law enforcement material that he is that a fair connection yeah it's an extremely fair connection you know had a good friend who you may know rob chestnut who was in the Eastern District of Virginia Rog was my boss when I'm try- There are two prosecutors on each the first chair would be the lead or perhaps the more senior prosecutor the second chair would be the more junior process I was unusually blessed as a young associate spend time in court including to try some cases in federal court the lawyers the prosecutors in my office were sorry it was nice I think to be able to do that I learned a tremendous amount trying cases with people you know I've been in Washington I had been in Birmingham and she was dead on the money there was nothing like standing up in a courtroom and saying I represent the people at the United States how long were you a a USA I was in a USA until room and the and the federal judge makes comments and this federal judge had been a USA so she talked about how being a USA was the best job she'd ever had turn you know I was the daughter in law the federal judge who had just been killed and that undoubtedly had something to do with my ability to get hired to that highly sought after should not have been able to and Harwell immediately realized that there was an ethical problem and he advised the ahead tried a big drug kingpin case and one of his key witnesses had been firebombed after he testified firebombed and killed extraordinary people and the first case that I tried with one of our senior guys who went on to be a magistrate Judge Harwell Davis Harwood your job and I didn't want anyone in the office my new colleagues to think that I couldn't pull my own weight so my strategy when I went on board wisdom the Monday after Louis Freeh got a conviction of Walter Leroy meeting and when was that July one thousand nine hundred ninety one when you took the oath I took the oath a few days later I volunteered a second share every case that went to trial I just literally walked around the office and said Hey do you need help I'd I'd like to help we should explain that cases are often Ti- cuter and we were in fact a small enough office that many people tried cases on their own so for some of these folks having a second chair especially somebody coming out of it some of the things he worked on some of the things that remain important to you to this very day when I went to the office I had a big we discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter so help me gone so help me God so God vet practice who they knew they could get to do some of the written work and right motions responses that convinced them to take me on and helped me learn how to try cases you're a luxury was not killed those molotov cocktail was thrown into a window in their house where their children were sleeping and by great good fortune everybody got out no one was killed no one was thing was wrong the situation which was sort of complicated was ultimately handled but everything about his bearing the way he conducted himself the integ- edge that we needed to sit down in chambers and deal with the situation he did it very calmly there was no perception on the part of the jury that any charges that he became a fugitive and for the ten years that he was a fugitive on those charges he ran a nationwide drug trafficking organization at the point where we arrest before they're convicted I believe that this cooperation and other evidence eventually led you to a drug kingpin named a Teeny Man Teeny man Roy Mack West this given name was Roy Mack West was from Sand Mountain Alabama he had a fourth grade education ultimately he was indicted on federal drug trafficking and saw and at the point in time where federal agents went in with a search warrant there is half a million dollars worth of lab glass in that facility what do you mean by lab glass is dedicated to networks that traffic in drugs across state lines often across international lines so who was teeny man teeny man who's we convicted a blind man of driving the getaway car from the firebombing strange but true you're GonNa have to explain that it was a crazy case the reason that the guy who drove the getaway car was the guy with site but as it turned out when they finally decided one of them to talk with us it was the legally blind guy who drove the I'm and Drug Enforcement Task Force units that exist in in every office across the country and go after the most serious organized drug trafficking we had the evidence and identified the defendant was that one of the tires was you know sort of down to the metal and so there was a rut literally a Rut in the road went allegation to your community to make sure that you can get convictions in cases you have to protect that integrity rigorously what happened enough for trial Joyce so significant meth lab probably the biggest formal meth lab we'd seen at that point in time in in the mid nineteen ninety s meth labs by the way are extraordinarily or can be the house that was firebombed about two and a half miles back to the house of these guys and they were arrested Tieman we'd figured all along we had a prosecutor in our office who had been state prosecutor named Bob Mcgregor and Bob worked in our hosted F unit this was the unit that looked at organized crime and drugs have lower level drug cases which are predominantly handled by state prosecutors have stand for us to death is the organized crime this is a formulation I've heard from others that takes a lifetime to build a reputation an instant to lose it you know I think that that's true and for prosecutors because you have an awesome that's not unusual particularly in these drug cases where you've got a network of people that are working together it's very common that they cooperate office eighty and I assume how you conduct yourself how I always tried to you know you learn on the job right but the most important thing is your integrity and what we ordinarily dangerous I have never put a meth cook on the witness stand who hadn't had some sort of explosion the head Meth Cook in this case in getaway car with the other guy telling him go left go right go left once they were convicted they ended up cooperating with you in other cases one of them cooperated in other did him he was running a poly drug organization he had three farms in New Mexico where he was growing the marijuana that he sold we took down a meth facility in Arkan- the equipment that was used to manufacture methamphetamine so this was at least for Little Birmingham Alabama a very always said in our office was there is no case that was more important than the integrity of the office used to caution young prosecutors new prosecutors at the traffic and explain what is is is a unit that exists I think in in every US attorney's office across the country and you know you many ways they were equally violent although motivated by that same you know sort of family connectedness that you see another criminal organizations user Code Enforce Their Code of silence you know this isn't Mafia as somebody like Pat Fitzgerald folks in the Southern District of New York thank this is what we call Dixie Mafia and in I've been blinded in an explosion of some of his stuff we organization that teeny man ran Was it violent it was violent day used violence to it why was that his nickname he weighed three hundred plus pounds and so that nickname had been given to him years before I became involved in the case between amen go to trial he did go to trial Bob Mcgregor and I tried that case together in Birmingham for three weeks a lot of witnesses a lot of complex wchs moving pieces in that case including witnesses who had to come from the witness security program to testify about some of the cocaine deals her and convicted on Eric cooperated we didn't need cooperation. We had obtained the cooperation of some of his lieutenants we tried additional cases against some major players after that is absolutely a code you didn't cooperate you didn't tell that's what enabled somebody like teeny man to avoid federal authorities for ten years I have to ask you joy so why teeny men I wanna they had connections with traffickers who were bringing drugs across the southern border so they were positioned to appoint were when they lost the trial Judge Bill Aker try to very tight case it was the outcome that we expected to T- men and up cooperating or were you done at that point on all counts it wasn't really a close call teeny man was represented by three lawyers including now Senator Doug Jones so he was represented very capably when someone goes to jail it's justice it can be important but they have you know they're individuals with families in a life story even when they're bad people who've amount of the drugs that were moving into the northern part of Alabama at that point in time were they coming from they came from all over the place you know I told you that he gruesomely just one aspect of their supply chain they could replace it pretty quickly we've talked on this podcast with other guests about how receiving a we were happy at the point in time where somebody went to jail if you looked at that as a happy moment that you needed to be done as a prosecutor because it's never happy verdict in a federal courtroom is actually a somber moment not a moment for celebration do you find that to be the case I always thought as a prosecutor that if you will tend to be something that you saw in movies and not in real life you know I can think of some cases involving child predators where I was in one hand quite easily the number of evil defendants that I saw most were greer reckless or some combination but e and the importance of doing that of making sure that you go after the key players is interdicting the supply of drugs and this organization was responsible for a significant hurt other people that's brought them to that path I've never felt any sense of happiness at that point and a case I was a prosecutor for a long time and I can probably count on relatively small police department in Boas Alabama you talk about that the entire night shift of the Boaz Alabama Police Department took a bad turn you get your podcast the last case you tried as an assistant us attorney involved a fascinating set of facts out of take on politics the two thousand twenty election more candid conversations with some of my favorite reporters about things we usually discuss off camera listen for free wherever I Hispanics who were working in that area and essentially steal their money so this is how that worked there are a number of poultry plants in that part of the state and the happy to see that particular defendant go to jail but not really the notable exception agreed with a few other cases here in their thrown in but most were not able Ashley police officers who were sworn to protect people taking advantage of whatever your views are on immigration these were people who were there to work this particular Captain Tim Hooks knew that and so he and his men began a practice of arresting these folks on payday holding them overnight unrest the captain had influenced all of the men on his shift and this is a small shift with only five other people but they had realized that they could arrest yeah he was outraged he was angry the FBI agents spoke with him and immediately started to make some connections and so they called me on a Friday afternoon to speak with the district attorney up there and we agreed that the case would be handled federally and so the Gadston agents did all of the investigation put the Asian status working in these plans and they were une banked on payday they would get their check they would cash it they didn't deposit into bank they carried it around as together you know we had a language problem because back at that point in time we had very little access to translation services are witnesses who were all frightened who who own those plants advertise heavily did at this point in time in newspapers in Central America for workers so you would have large numbers of people without legal immigrant made this scheme work they knew that because these folks were undocumented they would never report crime and that was why it was able to continue uninterrupted for so long this was and they took advantage of that but you began to say one of the people who were arrested was actually not an undocumented immigrant day arrested Americans Ingham the following morning they were never charged but keeping their money and this went on for a period of time until they made the mistake of arresting someone who's an American citizen because at this point Doug was the US attorney and we talk with Doug about the Caisson early the next week Doug and I drove up to Marshall County where Boaz is we had an ultimately one by one they began to agree to cooperate until only the captain went to trial because cooperating with you with the FBI was at issue here it was absolutely an issue here none of these defendants wanted to cooperate with us and we had a series they were coming to see you what did they bring they brought a witness and we sat down and and we talked so Doug Jones seems to always play into my stories mint cooperating against fellow officers they did they all had to take the witness stand they all had to testify against him as it turned out the spoke Spanish it took some doing to convince them to trust us many of them did speak English and once we were able to build relationships we were able to go as are quite large stands for resident agency this one was quite small this was a small office at the time they had four agents and a secretary it looks like in any way shape or form was a captain convicted he was convicted was sentenced to prison. He was eight year sentence Joyce after serving in instead don't go home we're coming to visit now the Gadston Office of the FBI is what's known as an Ra right it's a satellite office of the Birmingham Field Office some citizen a young Puerto Rican man who was in Boaz visiting some some family and as soon as he was arrested he went straight to the closest FBI office Gadsden Alabama additioning units going into car dealerships and getting keys and stealing stuff out of cars and it was shocking because that's not what the face of law enforcement in that part of the ahead and put the case together but you have another challenge in a case like that the Code of silence that you find in some police departments when there's an investigation of wrongdoing I think that's right depress chuck todd cast it's an insider incident that had put us onto their wrongdoing was not the full extent of their wrongdoing and they had just been in essence operating like a criminal gang stealing air can and it was a great office I'd done a good bit of work with them at this point in time they had some very senior agents they were very good at what they did so they called you up the told you don't go home on and the the Attorney General's Advisory Committee also has a number of subcommittees that deal with self one of the things you did as you attorney and I had this honor as well was to serve on the Attorney General's Advisory Committee can you explain what that was and what you did rafter you were nominated by President Obama and confirmed by the United States Senate as the US Attorney Right I was actually the acting after I'd been the criminal practice subcommittee looked at a broad spectrum of issues anything having to do with criminal practice early on for instance we were asked to look at an issue involving the he's of meetings with these defendants and their lawyers and this was the sort of a situation where we had to put the case together and then show them large large medium sized and small offices really a bird's eye view that gives the attorney general advice on issues that he or she believes he needs advice discovery practices discovery is the evidence that federal prosecutors are required to turn over to criminal defendants typically at a fairly early stage in the front substantive and procedural aspects of the work that's done in US attorney's offices and and has focus so early on it and look I have to say all dude the role was so the attorney general has a council of United States attorneys from across the country geographically dispersed from extra case but there wasn't a uniform practice in the ninety four US attorney's offices across the country and we were asked to take a look at that and come up with policy longtime and I was the only woman Attorney General Eric holder asked me to serve on Aga C. which was an incredible privilege and asked me to coach is the era shorttimer right you'll only be in the office during the time that you serve the president who is appointed you so I had to think really hard about whether I was willing to exchange affirmed and while I was waiting for confirmation I imagine that being an a USA was an even better job but being us attorney a great privilege it's an important at a politically appointed one I thought that way the whole time I was us attorney at a hard time remembering that I was no longer courier right because that becomes the way in which you define for eighteen years as an assistant us attorney who became the acting United States attorney for the northern district of Alabama that's right and then sooner double criminal justice reform theory looks at the system a little bit differently and it says we need to think about prevention one set of responsibilities for another very different set I struggled without a bit too because I always thought of myself as a career prosecutor meaty similarly an issue came up involving charging and sentencing policy and we were involved in that Attorney General Eric holder though was committed we need to think about preventing recidivism and it's not always true that putting someone in jail in prison for the longest possible time is the best way Russian and re entry or or work to avoid recidivist crime that prosecution work is the most important work that US attorneys offices do what we tried to work on was building awareness that these other aspects of the problem where things we could do in connection with other criminal justice stakeholders in the commute this effort it's interesting that we had worked with state and local law enforcement like prosecutors always do on prosecution issues they were a lot further along share the criminal practice subcommittee which turned out to be some of the most interesting work that I did as a US attorney what was the remit of the committee what was it looking at choice what did you do it was a big ream it and I have to tell you chuck it was an area that ran a little bit against the grain for a career prosecutor was that the way that I was brought up in my office was to believe that the most important thing that I could do to protect my community was to get serious criminals off the street and to lock them up for as long as possible to reforming the criminal justice system and some of the aspects of it that weren't working as well as they could have been and that was where the meat of our work was so how did you go about it honesty the reason that I ended up on AJC is because early in the Obama Administration the Senate was slow confirming US attorneys so there were only five of us for a really long before we also began to develop some really unusual partners we developed partners in public health and you and I have talked about this over the years for instance in the area with the criminal justice system most of them are going to go back to their communities and a large number of them will commit new crimes fairly short term after entity and by creating a synergy among people who really weren't used to working together and coordinating we could do a lot to help our communities for instance which groups that you bring in every problem that comes along that they can make other partners in the community and so I think where we were particularly successful in this came out of the of addiction where we began to understand that as much as our job is prosecutors was to try to cut off the supply of drugs coming into our communities we could also face it seemed pretty clear that they have a problem getting a job right we knew that we didn't fully understand was how difficult it was to France when your entire toolkit is a hammer every problem looks like a nail and that's true and so it's important for prosecutors to understand that they don't have to deal with since get a driver's license get your social security card these baby steps that you have to take before you can even think about getting a job what do you do if you live in an area with you work with Public Health to think about the demand for those kind of drugs right well I think one of the important changes in recent years is thinking of addiction their release said the question becomes he keep that from happening and we began to look at structural issues what are the problems that people who come out of prison GAC work attorney general holder was big proponent of re entry work a lot of people go to prison in this country something like one in every four people have contact of keeping the community safe fair enough there are still some people who need to go to jail for a long period of time that's absolutely true and and you know the most important work that prosecutors do if if you think about the criminal justice system of a as a three legged stool and you need to keep all three of the legs in balance and that would be prevention prosecute ready he approached the situation with he didn't make any unfair accusations he stuck to the facts and in my mind has always been such a picture of integrity to that point the undocumented immigrants working in the poultry plants were in coming forward to law enforcement to report what had happened to them that was what responsibility and it actually took me a while to be convinced that it was something that that I wanted to do because something that you know is a US attorney uh-huh than we were on the prevention side of things and so we developed relationships where we began to work with people in law enforcement and on issues that we had not worked on as a public health crisis which it is and not as a criminal justice issue that's a hard switch for prosecutors and I've often heard people say Tom at the same time that the subcommittee in Washington was getting an enormous download of data and information so we could study the problem I doubt wonderful no transportation how do you get housing what do you do about medical care and so we began to work with a number of community stakeholders on those issues in Birmingham application pretty early on has a bunch of boxes that you check in one is have you ever been convicted of a crime have you ever been arrested and that's what this program proposes six people about criminal convictions early on in the hiring process and many of our large local employers have become to take on a really advanced sort of point of view in that air employers and we were able to begin to make some inroads in that area ultimately the city of Birmingham adopted policies where it no longer ass ocean initially and mark was incredibly gracious he came down to Birmingham he met with people from across the community including some of our largest the type of reception did you get for these initiatives both in your office and in your community in my office the initial reaction was very cold it's not that employers don't collect that information but that they collect it at a later stage in the game and I had one fascinating conversation with a man who was the CEO of a large business that was heavily regulated so he felt like he couldn't employ people with felony convictions in uh-huh crimes that really impacted our community in a negative way if we could keep crime from being committed then we were really serving our community and so we had title history you do learn about that later stage it might impact the kind of job you give someone but mark holden the foundations general counsel and coke advocate strenuously for what's called banning box that means that you don't remove somebody from your pool of potential employees accusers people like me in the office to bridge that gap the younger prosecutors seemed to really access these ideas much more easily but what we employers in Alabama were they receptive so we had a great partnership I had actually done some work in Washington with people from the Coke Foundation ultimately understood was this we were in office like all offices with limited resources we wanted to use our resources on the most serious crime area is that what banning the box refers to not asking a potential employees to check a particular box on a job application standard job the people who originally were very put off by this notion ultimately invest in some of the community partnerships we we made we didn't anti-gang program is deeply committed to this work he has an interesting background he started in in Worcester Massachusetts and worked his way through college working in jail so we used to say to each other you know we're not social workers we would recognize our boundaries we're prosecutors we were there to put people in jail to solve crimes we weren't there it was a heavy lift to convince Alabama businesses that we should think about banning the box and and hiring people who had convictions right it's sort of hard Alabama a company that operated nationally and I said to him sure you know in in your regulated positions you can't hire people but you've got a cafeteria you've got janitor to handle these other aspects of the problem and that is it turns out is I think very shortsighted and limited version it was more difficult for some of the older did involved bringing in some youth who had committed low level crimes who were susceptible and working with them and I had prosecutors who gave generously of their time on nine rates and on weekends to attend those meetings because we began to understand that we could actually reduce the amount of crime that was being committed with this kind of programming and what about it just because they have a criminal conviction that you get to know people and assess their talents and make a decision about whether to hire them without knowing about their ars and the amazing thing was he opened up and told me the story of his sister who had struggled in her twenties who had been arrested who had gone to prison who had problems with drug addiction threatre life and finally much later in life was able to get our act together and come home and take care of their mother and he had sort of kept that story inside all of those years and he finally told it publicly to help convince other companies that it was important for us to take the step if you're businessman and you think about this pragmatically if one in four people in your employment pool have some sort of previously disqualifying criminal history you've really cut your pool significantly and there's good data on employing people with old convictions that says that they make good employees Johns Hopkins the University has about fifteen years of data now they aggressively hire people with convictions they find that they're loyal employees they don't have problems on the job and they don't re-offend once they have that job so generally speaking it's working it's working well one of the things you also worked on and this was in the civil division of is enough everyone knows what criminal prosecutors do right they they prosecute when people violate the law but civil divisions are incredibly important and I think you're right fifty six say a word about the civil division because they do extraordinary work around the country in US attorney's offices but we sometimes don't sing there chuck people don't know about their work and they should know about their work not only did they defend the United States when it gets sued they collect in some cases significance the US attorney's office in Birmingham was a bill passed by the Alabama Legislature H. B. Fifty six before I ask you about HP HBO Fifty-six Sometimes the Civil Division lawyers became plaintiff's lawyers and in my office that typically in involved protecting the civil rights can't debts owed to the United States couldn't be collected without their hard work every year that I wish US attorney my office made more in in those collections than it cost to run the office we were very good bargain for the tax payer because of the dedicated employs the civil unit and in cases like the one we're about to discuss Asian bill and the goal was to make life so miserable for undocumented people living in Alabama that they would leave and there's only one problem with that and it's not about at immigration policy and where you stand on those issues it's a constitutional issue under the Tenth Amendment the State of Alabama didn't have the Congress has articulated a federal interest and said that the federal government will set policy on issues immigration is one of those issues and it's pretty easy to understand in a football game if you had fifty different quarterbacks throwing passes it would be a mess immigration is the same sort of an issue rights of people in our district so explain it please Joyce Alabama's legislature passed H B fifty six it was a measure that they described as deport yourself Imigran Oughta have one quarterback imagine being a foreign country and having to deal with different rules in fifty different states it would just be impossible so what did you do initially we try right to create legislation that was contrary to federal policy that was the argument you're positing that was the argument that we made you know in in some areas Dingley enough had standing to challenge some aspects of of the bill there were a number of objectionable provisions but just because we thought they were and to convince the Attorney General in Alabama that he shouldn't defend the bill that it was clearly unconstitutional that didn't work and so along with colleagues from religious volunteers who had been in the practice of driving people who are undocumented to doctors appointments and other appointments the bill made that a criminal act filed along with ours one was filed on behalf of the Episcopal Church and the Catholic Church and there were issues because parts of the bill made it illegal for and so the faith based institutions came into challenge that and then there was another lawsuit that was filed by the Southern Poverty Law Center and the ACLU challenge elected I think that's true one of the provisions of the bill required state and local law enforcement when they came across someone who is undocumented too challenging about ten of the provisions of the bill essentially gutting the worst provision in the bill and the Supreme Court did not take the case on Cert- so that eleventh circuit aging some other provisions of the bill but the

Bob Vance Alabama Moody Alabama Birmingham Peter Joyce prosecutor murder High School Los Angeles Joyce Vance State Court Frank Johnson FBI DC United States Federal Appellate Court MSNBC New York
Voting machine woes. Router exploits trouble Brazil, Bitpoint alt-coin exchange investigates theft. Facebook fined $5 billion. Power failures probably unrelated to cyberattacks. Amazon Prime phishing.

The CyberWire

19:38 min | 1 year ago

Voting machine woes. Router exploits trouble Brazil, Bitpoint alt-coin exchange investigates theft. Facebook fined $5 billion. Power failures probably unrelated to cyberattacks. Amazon Prime phishing.

"Hey everybody Dave here with a quick announcement that you can now get a version of our daily news briefing on your Amazon. Alexa just set up the cyber wire as part of your flash briefing and say Alexa. What's my flash briefing? Check it out upgraded. Voting Machines may not be as secure or as upgraded as election officials seem to think criminals continue to exploit routers in Brazil a Japanese crypto currency exchange shuts down while eyelid investigates a multimillion dollar theft. The Federal Trade Commission finds facebook five billion dollars over privacy issues weakened power outages seem not to have been the result of cyberattacks. Another city sustains a ransomware attack and shop of carefully on Amazon Prime Day. It's time to take a moment to tell you about our sponsor recorded future. You've probably heard of recorded future the real time <music> I'm threatened company. Their patented technology continuously analyzes the entire web to give Infosec analysts unmatched insight into emerging threats we subscribe to and read their cyber daily. They do some of the heavy lifting and collection and analysis analysis that frees you to make the best informed decisions possible for your organization sign up for the cyber daily email and everyday you'll receive the top results for trending technical indicators that are crossing the web cyber news targeted industries threat actors exploited had vulnerabilities malware suspicious I._p.. Addresses and much more subscribed today and stay ahead of cyber attacks go to recorded future dot com slash cyber wire his subscribe for free threat intelligence updates from recorded future. It's is timely it's solid and the price is right and we thank recorded future for sponsoring our show funding for this cyber wire podcast is made possible in part by extra hob providing cyber cyber analytics for the hybrid enterprise learn more about how extra hop reveal X. enables network threat detection and response at extra hop dot com from the cyber wire studios data tribe. I'm Dave Vitner with your cyber wires summary for Monday Day July Fifteenth Two Thousand Nineteen the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania has announced its determination to upgrade its election security before twenty twenty and it spent more than fourteen million dollars in funds mostly contributed to the state by the Federal Government do so but this upgrade hasn't proceeded happily the Associated Press reported in an exclusive over the weekend that county election authorities have for the most part gone with voting machines running windows seven and operating system that will reach its end of life in January. The systems are used the A. P. says quote to create ballots program voting machines tally votes and report counts and quote all of this is as the engineers would delicately put it sub. Optimal and no one is particularly happy about it U._S.. Election Assistance Commission Chair Christie McCormick told the A P using windows seven systems quote is of concern and it should be of concern and quote the largest U._S. voting system vendor yes an s say they've got arguably more secure windows ten based systems coming soon and that they're working with Microsoft to provide windows seven security upgrades until all systems came to be converted to the latest version of the O._S. U._S.. This is not an unfamiliar problem with Internet of things generally vendors modify operating systems in ways that tend to prolong their life beyond the intended limits. There may also be a standards issue here county election officials tend to take certifications as solid evidence that their systems are secure but the A._p.. Story goes on to say that citizens for better elections and advocacy group says that many county election officials seemed to be unaware that many of the systems they intend to use these were certified under two thousand five standards in any event vulnerabilities in systems that count and report votes would open the possibility of direct manipulation of elections a step beyond the kind of influence operations foreign actors have deployed in the past avast follows up the trend toward cross site request forgery attacks against routers with a report on the exploit kits used the attacks had been noted earlier by Rad wear and Net lab victims victims continue to be concentrated in Brazil coin desk reports. The Japanese Alt- Coin Exchange bit point has halted all activity while it investigates the theft of some thirty two million dollars in crypto currency the exchange notice there was a problem when it observed anomalous behavior in hot wallet. The Wall Street Journal reported late Friday that the U._S. Federal Trade Commission has approved a five billion dollar settlement in the matter of facebook privacy missteps in connection with the Cambridge Analytical Data Scandal. The commission divided along partisan lines in their vote. The three Republicans approve the F._T._C.'s proposed settlement while the two Democrats saw things to dislike in it the agreement which now goes to to the Department of Justice Civil Division for final review is expected to include provisions for closer privacy oversight of the social network but those details weren't immediately available. It's thought the partisan divide may have been over the character of the oversight measures us as heavy a burden as five billion dollars may be congressional critics of the fine point to facebook's very high revenues which were Washington Post notes fifteen billion dollars for the last quarter alone facebook had had expected heavy fine and in that same quarterly reports said that it had put aside funds to cover that eventuality another way of looking at the matter is in terms of profit per employee at facebook. That's over six hundred thirty four thousand per employee three per year a record for the tech sector according to Silicon Valley Business Journal nonetheless. It's hard to regard five billion dollars as chump change even around Menlo Park. The settlement easily sets a record for penalties. is imposed for violating and F._T._C. order. The previous record was a twenty two point five million dollar fine against Google in two thousand twelve which in relative terms is chicken feed. The F._T._C. has greater latitude in punishing repeat offenders and we're facebook not a privacy recidivist might have gotten off easier on the other hand a number of observers including some members of Congress think the penalty amounts to a slap on the wrist and opinion piece in the verge agrees arguing that facebook has behaved badly since its foundation and that it has consistently escaped accountability for such missteps as those on display in the Cambridge analytica affair the G._A._O.. Recently published a report federal title agencies need to strengthen online identity verification processes urging federal agencies to up their game when it comes to user authentication Patrick Cox is founder of trust I._D.. A company that specializes in call authentication Haitian the traditional way I- traditional meaning. Maybe the last ten or fifteen years the way authentication has worked in these channels primarily asking questions right. We all know the drill. What's your mother's maiden name? What your date of birth which your social security number things things like that and and that's broken? That's really what led us here. Today is that that information is totally broken and so what are the alternatives then well three ways to authenticate somebody one obviously is asking questions and that's called knowledge wjr face identity <hes> proving the second one would be ownership so you think about a credit card physical unique device right that would be ownership authentication having a device a key for example Kita safety deposit box would be an ownership token and the final one is what we call inherent something you inherently are so a fingerprint a retinal scan. You know DNA things like that would indicate who you are. Those are the only three tools we have in the in the authentication arsenal so so questioning you know is really easy to understand why you do that especially over a phone call because it's hard to if not impossible to get a fingerprint or something over a phone call right so it becomes more challenging. I know one of the concerns here is that if you move move to a digital method if you do something that requires something like a mobile device well not everybody has a mobile device absolutely true and so what we've what we've been advocating for in fact we do this. Millions and millions of sometimes each day for some of the largest financial institutions in the country is relying far less on the asking of questions right the knowledge information that whole approach frankly broken because criminals know your data birthright us on social media it's been shared the sad news with all the data breaches and hacks and so on out there late they have your social security number. They have your address. They have your mortgage payment information. The information has been shared with the bad guys and so what we advocate for using using more <unk> ownership authentication so if you're calling from a mobile phones you save Dave is pretty pretty common sense to say hey we can make sure that mobile phone is unique. It's not duplicated is actually engaged in the interaction. It's in that person's possession. Possession because they've obviously used some sort of probably inheritance method right. They've used a facial scan or fingerprints or a pass code to get access to that phone. That's great and then also is nice though on a phone call even if it's a landline you can do the same thing for landline phones yes which is great right now. You've got basically a hundred percent coverage because of the person is able to call in then they can identity proof with that ownership token. The phone itself doesn't have to just be mobile. It can be landline as well and is that is something as simple simple is a callback system where they're calling us so they know the number they're calling or or using some sort of caller I._D.. To verify the number you're calling from yes you'd use a caller I._D.. Information which is great however you probably heard of a thing called spoofing were criminals and others can yeah they can fake your phone number so if you can solve for the spoofing problem and there's technology today that does that and also if you can solve for what we call the virtualization problem and there's technology that solves that when I say virtualization think about calls calls from <unk> skype or google voice right. It's not really a physical device. It's not really a physical location. It's more virtual a log in username and password you can deal with that technology and be able to identity proof these calls if you can solve the spoofing virtualization sation problems and again as I said there's there's really proven technology out there to do those things. That's Patrick Cox from trust I._D.. Deutsche Avella reports that an unprecedented power failure yesterday affecting Argentina Uruguay and Paraguay remains under investigation but Argentina's energy ministry says a cyber attack is not among the main alternatives being considered M._S._N._B._C. quotes New York City's Mayor de Blasio saying the city is as certain as we can be that Manhattan's weekend blackout was not caused by a cyber attack power has been largely restored in both instances official announcements concerning grid failures now routinely addressed the possibility of cyber attack. The Syracuse City School district in central New York state has confirmed that a cyber incident. It's sustained last week was in fact a ransomware attack. This is the most recent in a string of ransomware attacks against local governments and their services Syracuse schools haven't yet brought their systems back online. The town of New Bedford Massachusetts also sustained a recent cyberattack but the city is keeping quiet about the details acting it says on the advice of the security consultants sultans. It's hired to help with recovery and it's Amazon Prime Day as you may have noticed. Even if you haven't noticed the drifters scammers the hoods all have Amazon prime is being used as fish bait all over the place so shop carefully and now a word from our sponsor no before the experts in new school approaches to defeating social engineering ever wonder how hackers and con artists artists know so much about their targets physically. There's more information out there on everyone then. You'd like to believe there's even a name for it. Open source intelligence sint Kevin Mitnick no before his chief hacking officer can show you what the bad guys can find out. What about you go to know before dot com slash Oh sent and register for a free Webinar with people who know a thing or two about mind-blowing underground open secrets that you need to know that's K. N. O. W. B. Numeral four DOT dot com slash O. S. I N.? T. and we thank no before for sponsoring our show <music> and joining me once again as Joe Kerrigan he's from the Johns Hopkins University Information Security Institute and also my co host over on the hacking humans podcast jobs could have you back. It's good to be back. Dave Joe we have been following this story about apple and zoom zoom the conferencing software and how <hes> Zoom had installed a web server on Max and if you uninstalled the Zoom App <hes> This web server would stay behind correct <hes> to zoom says is to facilitate <hes> easier reinstallation Bri of the <hes> of the APP right while the the voter ability actually stems from a problem with this ease of use feature if you can call it that <hes> the zoom is was insisting on now since backtrack from it but the idea that when I clicked the link I just get it just works zoom just comes up and I'm teleconference thin right and the link the the person who administers the Zoom Conference can turn my camera on and my microphone on so that presumably. I don't have to sit there going <hes>. How do I get my audio connections right to work just like I did this past Tuesday and a Webex meeting exactly what happened about yes they are there? Yes I had I I had to type in a chat and say hold on. Let me audio settings right <hes> but yeah we've all been through that for tours. Zoom Zoom is from from a user perspective saying well. That's too much. Let's just do this <hes> well that is also too much. Apparently really what's interesting is <hes> in this is that the apple version of the software contained a Web server on your machine that even after you uninstalled zoom when you clicked on another link this web server would help him to reinstall the software again and it was seamless. The user didn't see it getting installed apple then this week late. This week has pushed out a an update that goes in silent update that goes in and removes this server from your machine right right now this. I find interesting as well. There's a person on twitter. His name is <hes> Eric Capuano and <hes> I think he captured <hes> he captured this this tweet he said <hes> Infosec twitter. How dare you silently install a vulnerable the web server on my system also Infosec twitter? How dare you silently remove vulnerable web server from my system right everyone else? I guess there was a bad thing that could turn on my camera but it's gone now right. That's right so what do you make of this. This <hes> some people pushing back on Apple's capability to silently alter your computer right for all software uninstall software from would they say are for security reasons and and in this case that is absolutely true. Correct what do you make of people getting spun up about that. I don't know I mean I tend to think that when you buy an apple device you're going into the apple ecosystem <hes> right and part of that ecosystem is they have a security culture and they have the idea that the user is not really in control troll of their computer experience to me. They are on other with other with other. Oh S.'s this. This is the main reason I don't like apple as as a as a guy who comes from a technical background I enjoy using a windows machine or Lennox machines right. I don't want the the apple experience. I don't want them telling me what to do. So if you don't want apple behaving this way don't buy an apple right right <hes> but the vast majority of people just like so this tweet says have the attitude that hey there was something bad map took care of it. Yeah we're good here. We're good. We're done <hes> you know and and I think that what really prompted apple to do. This was the fact that zooms web server didn't uninstall as part of the APP on install. That's probably in violation of the developer agreement I would imagine so. I am not an APP developer for Apple. It makes sense that it would be. It's just it's bad form. If nothing else leave behind a web server running after the user has requested that your software be uninstalled right exactly yeah there's a article <hes> Zach Whitaker <hes> road over on tech crunch and part of it includes <hes> a quote from a spokesperson from Zoom who who said we're happy to have worked with apple on testing this update right yeah I'll. I'm just guessing what that everybody. I'm just saying I'm just imagining apple saying to get speculating here but thinking that apple saying okay so here's what's going to happen and doomsaying. Okay okay very good. We're GONNA have a lot of computers. If you WANNA have access to say okay right right. I mean this. This is like I said this is why you buy an apple. It's because of the security posture and because a lot of this it's a lot of this maintenance. which would you'd have to do yourself on other? Operating Systems is handled handle by apple themselves yeah all right well. It's an interesting <hes> kerfuffle and and certainly <hes> I mean it's the security event as well. It is yeah all right well Joe Kerrigan as always thanks for joining US pleasure Dave and that's the cyber wire thanks to all of our sponsors for making the cyber wire possible especially are supporting sponsor observe it the leading insider insider threat management platform learn more at observant dot com. Don't forget to check out the grumpy old GEEKS podcast where I contribute to a regular segment called security <hes> I joined Jason and Brian on their show for a lively discussion of the latest Security Kirti News every week you can find grumpy geeks where all the fine podcasts are listed and check out the recorded future podcast which I also host the subject there is threat intelligence and every week we talked to interesting people about timely cybersecurity topics that chat recorded future dot com slash podcast the cyber wire podcast is proudly produced in Maryland out of the startup studios of data tribe with their co building. The next generation of cybersecurity teams and technology are amazing cyber wire.

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Joyce Vance: Sweet Home

The Oath with Chuck Rosenberg

1:00:45 hr | 1 year ago

Joyce Vance: Sweet Home

"I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign the master that I will bear to faith and allegiance to the scene that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion and that I will well and faithfully we discharge the duties of the office which I am about to enter so help me. God Help Me God so God welcome to the oath. I'm Chuck Rosenberg and I am honored to be your host for another thoughtful conversation with a fascinating guest many of you know Joyce Vance from her impressive work as legal analyst on MSNBC before taking on that role Joyce was the United States attorney for the Northern District of Alabama in Birmingham. Joyce voice shares a deeply personal and tragic event in her own life on the show in nineteen eighty nine her beloved father-in-law Federal Appellate Court Judge Robert Vance was killed by album delivered to his home that mail bomb also grievously injured judge Vance's wife the cold-blooded murder of Joyce's father-in-law inspired her to become a federal the prosecutor in her adopted home state of Alabama. It also helped to shape her views on criminal justice issues including the death penalty as a federal prosecutor. Peter Joyce handled a wide variety of important cases including a difficult and disturbing corruption case involving a small Alabama police department. She is here to share share her story with you. Joyce fans welcome to the earth. Thanks for having me check. It's a pleasure to have you tell us a little bit about Joyce fans. I grew up in the suburbs of Los santeuil assists raised by a single parent mom who taught preschool and was very dedicated to education so I had a very sort of a rich upbringing she I was interested in a lot of different things and I benefited from that exposure siblings no siblings with my mom. She and my dad were divorced and I've got four half brothers from his second marriage wonderful so I assume you graduated from high school in Los Angeles too. I did barely because I spent a lot of time at the beach but I did manage to get through high school and then went to college in Maine Bates College in Lewiston Maine we think of you as an Alabama woman but the roots are really on the West Coast we stay in Alabama. We say L. L. A. and it means Lower Alabama but actually grew up in the real ally after college after Bates you went to the University of Virginia for Law School Dead TV TV a Wa Wa. I should point out the defending national champions in basketball. I was there during the Ralph Sampson years it was I loved law school. What did you you love about it. The people you know we had a wonderful class. We came from a lot of different backgrounds brought a lot of different beliefs to the table but it was a tremendously endlessly fun and very loyal group if people. I'm still very close with most my law school friends will. How did you end up in Alabama. My husband is from Alabama. We met each other other in law school. I was working for a firm in DC. I was working for Fox when we got engaged. was he a classmate. He was a classmate. It's actually worse than that. Chuck Akil appreciate this. We were in the same small section which navy as sort of like Marianna member of your family but nonetheless Bob it intended to move up to DC see where I wasn't and ironically go to work at the Justice Department but I had a case in Jackson. Mississippi a really interesting case was spending a lot of time in Birmingham and ultimately. They decided to move their Bob is Bob Vanson. He's a judge he is as we like to say at the family dinner table not a very good one but he's no. He is a really get judge. He's a State Court judge in Birmingham and is just tremendously dedicated to what he does. You have many fans some of whom no this many of whom I assume do not but you're father-in-law in-law. Bob's father was also a judge. You talk about him. Yeah my father-in-law was an Eleventh Circuit Judge Federal Court of Appeals Judge and before that he had been plaintiff's lawyer and was involved in some voting rights litigation was involved in litigation on behalf of consumers before he went on the bench he was murdered in nineteen eighty nine by a mail bomb sent by an individual named Moody who sent mail bombs to a number of people and was ultimately caught and prosecuted in both the federal and state systems. You were married when your father in law was murdered. I was we had been married a couple LE`veon's earlier and got married in Alabama not at home in Los Angeles. I've always been really grateful that we made that decision because my father in law who had two sons and no daughters really enjoyed the fact that we got married there told me a little bit about the day you learned of his murder and by the way in that bombing your mother-in-law was seriously injured. Bob's mom and endowed worst sitting around little white table in the breakfast room when he opened the box that contained the bomb. She was sitting right across from him so so she was wounded very seriously. I was in New York taking depositions in case Bob. My husband had come up to meet me for the weekend so we were actually in New York with friends from Birmingham and with some friends from law school when we learned about it and flew back home right away you mentioned Moody had said the Bom Has Walter Lee Roy Roy primate y you know I think it's hard to know what people's motives are but he had had a criminal conviction could not get it removed so he could go to law school had had a history of building bombs. He had a ex wife who had been hurt when one of his bombs when she discovered it in the home he just seemed like one of these people who was thoroughly ah unhappy with his own life and took it out on other people ironically tragically. Your father in law had nothing to do with Moody. They never intersected in their professional national lives in any way no in no way at all and in fact when he sent the bomb he used a return address from one of the other judges on the court so there was no reason for Bob Bob to think twice about opening the box came in the mail was killed instantly. He was killed instantly and it was it was loud my mother in law who was a really amazing woman she since passed away she immediately realized a couple of things simultaneously that he was dead that it was a bomb and that other people that she loved were are at risk so with horrible injuries she got in her car and they lived sort of in a area where the house is close together and she drove to their closest neighbor and end told him we need to call Frank. Johnson Bob's just been killed. We need to make sure frank doesn't opening male. Frank Johnson was the judge on the eleventh circuit who had a tremendous this track record for civil rights and mom was really worried about him amazing with what had just happened to her that she had the presence of mind to do that. She he was a remarkable woman moody killed others he did he killed an Alderman in Savannah. Georgia named Robbie Robinson a WHO had a track doc record of doing civil rights work also sent a bomb to the N. double. ACP in Florida and then one to the eleventh circuit to the main court in Atlanta now the one that was sent to the main core of the eleventh circuit and Atlanta was intercepted. It was intercepted. This was close to Christmas. It was a week ahead of Christmas. So one in good thing that happened was there was slower mail delivery in those last two parcels were intercept for they could go off what happened. Moody Needy was ultimately prosecuted in both both the state and in the federal systems. It's a bit unusual it is there was no death penalty in the federal system at the time that he was prosecuted and so the state of Alabama Alabama subsequently prosecuted a capital case and by the way the prosecutors in the federal case are quite well known Louis Freeh was the lead prosecutor in that case assisted by at the time a a young lawyer named Howard Shapiro and they came down from the southern district of New York to work on all of the the cases Louie Freeh later served as the director of the FBI and Howard as his general counsel. It's a small world right your mother-in-law and your father-in-law obviously victims victims of the crime but you bob as well. You know it was really hard for my husband. He loved his Daddy. So much. We were close to his parents. We used to spend Sunday nights eating dinner with them and spent a lot of time with them. always remember that when my mother in law who was in surgery and was intimated when she could finally speak she she looked up at my husband and the first thing she said was. I'm sorry about your Daddy. You've told me a story about going to visit your mother-in-law in the hospital. which is I think charming the mind sharing that so I was unexpectedly pregnant with our first child just a couple of weeks pregnant when Bob's dad was killed and I went to visit my mother-in-law on the hospital she had had extensive surgery still had some nails in her body? They stayed in her body for the rest of her life and she that was exactly what you would expect. She was depressed. She was sad she was down and I told her that I was pregnant and she was you know she was happy. She wasn't exuberant but she was happy. Happy and I came back here again later that afternoon and she there was no one in her hospital room and I was frantically worried because her injuries were serious and so so I went flying out to the nurse's station and asked where she was and they sort of laughed little bit and they said you know after you left she got out of bed she had not gotten out of bed at all before then and she got up and she said I've got to get ready. I've gotta go home. I have a grandbaby becoming and that I think you know by the grace of God was what helped her recover recover. Initially Howard Shapiro Louie Freeh convicted Moody in Federal Court he was also convicted in State Court and received a sentence of death. Could you talk about that. We know the federal conviction came relatively quickly. The case was tried in Minnesota because there were concerns about conflicts. If it was tried in the south both my husband opened and my mother-in-law were able to watch that trial which I think was very good for them. The state case was a little bit slower came a couple of years later. Was Your mother-in-law call a witness at trial. She was a witness in both cases and she was a good witness. I have to say I've put a lot of victim witnesses on the stand in in my life. If you know she just was a genuine person and out to she was when she testified. We had the two different prosecutions. The second one was a capital case. There were some members of our family who felt very strongly. The death penalty needed to be sought against the man who had killed their father brother cousin so the death penalty is always one of those issues that people can debate do have a view on it at the time. Do you think it was the appropriate sanction for the man who killed your father father in law. I did have a view on it at the time and I I was strongly in favor of the death penalty in this particular case. I loved my father. In Law I was was emotional about losing him. Emotional mount him never getting to meet his first grandchild and very much eye for an eye at that point in time. The house was his his sister in a number of other family members. My mother-in-law never was a supporter of the death penalty and her point of view. Was it win. Bring back now in the State Prosecution he was found guilty and in fact was sentenced to death he was sentenced to death and because there's a long long lag between sentencing and execution something that I experienced personally is how you view can change over time and how that emotional response that you have in the first year after you you lose somebody that you love in that very violent manner. I ultimately came to believe that my mother-in-law was was right that there is nothing that would bring Bob back and it really was part of a change in my viewpoint about the death penalty. Did you notice a similar change and other other family members. I think people really do change. I think there's an instinctive reaction right in that moment where you're searching for some way of making sense sense some way of restoring order to your life. The death penalty may be seems easy for people in that situation. I'm not proud of that. It's just where I was was. I mean you know I was mournful. It was terrible loss in our lives but ultimately in addition to having some really pragmatic concerns as a prosecutor cuter about whether the death penalty serves the the deterrence interests that we think it serves. It just felt like the wrong way to address in this situation of of loss. Your father in law was murdered in nineteen eighty nine. Walter Leroy Moody was finally put to death by the State of Alabama in two thousand thousand eighteen twenty nine years long gap right. I'll talk about in a cold way and say that takes a lot of prosecutorial resources. There's a lot of effort that's being spent on that sort of capital litigation and the issues that are unique to death penalty litigation. Could those resources be better spent spent in other ways. You know that's a judgment call for policy makers. I did have a capital case in my office that was started by my predecessor. She served for eight years. I served for close to eight years by the time I left my office. That case was only just close to being resolved and the resolution would be to take capital little punishment off of the table simply because it's so difficult in so many ways to get there when moody was executed Were you given the option to attend. We were weren't interested. I think made our peace with it years ago. As a result of your father-in-law's murder you became a federal prosecutor is is that a fair connection yeah. It's an extremely fair connection had a good friend who you may know rob chestnut who was in the Eastern District of Virginia Rog was my boss. When I was a federal prosecutor. We work together one summer when we were both in law school remain very good friends he and Barbara very good friends. I knew that he had gone to the Eastern District District of Virginia every time we saw him. He talked about how much he loved his job as a prosecutor working in the criminal division so it was maybe in the back of my mind rob was terrific prosecutor by the way in a good boss great guy it was really watching. Louis Freeh and watching Howard and watching this team of FBI ATF agent agents who we hadn't previously known in Birmingham it wasn't just their commitment to getting the right guy to protecting the community by taking a bad guy off the street. It was their entire approach. They were so rigorous they were so ethical. There were multiple potential defendants that they had to make decisions about they had to think about the evidence they had to deal with the victim's family that really wanted to know a lot of information that they couldn't share with victims in part because it was grand jury. Rian covered by secrecy or or for other reasons and they did it so well and I was so impressed and I felt an obligation to try to pay that forward. This may be apparent but for agents and prosecutors the murder of a federal judge is an assault on the system. They take all crime seriously but this they also took personally. I imagine they did and my office was co located. I say my office the US Attorney's Office in Birmingham was co located in the same federal office space with my father-in-law they knew him they interacted with them so it was in so many ways very personal. Birmingham's a small community but that inspired inspired you it really did and it was it's hard to leave private practice when you've got student loans and as the kid of a single parent mom who taught preschool. I had loans but we made a decision that it was right for us for our family and so with my husband's blessing I am joined the US Attorney's office the Monday after Louis Freeh got a conviction of Walter Leroy meeting and when was that July one thousand nine hundred ninety one when you took the oath I took the oath a few days later I join the office at the same time as to other people and then another lawyer came on board the following week so I took the oath internally that morning but in court the four of us took it together the following week remember that occasion idea. I remember it very well. My husband came our oldest child was in a stroller. I don't know if they do this in all offices but the practice in our office has always been to go across the street to the Federal Court House and be sworn in by a federal judge in their courtroom room and the and the federal judge makes comments and this federal judge had been in a USA so she talked about how being a USA was the best job she'd ever had odd and how important it had been for her to stand up in court and say I represent the people of the United States was at the best job you've ever had. There's just no doubt I mean and she was dead. On the money there was nothing like standing up in a courtroom and saying I represent the people at the United States. How long were you a a USA. I was in a USA until I became the United States attorney. I was in our our criminal. Division for about ten years was moved over to our appellate division. We formed an appellate division. During the Bush administration I was one of the original lawyers in it and then became the chief of the appellate division several years down. The road became the acting. US I attorney in April of two thousand and nine and then was confirmed in August. Tell me a little bit about your tenure as an a USA some of the things he worked on some of the things that remain important to you to this very day. When I went to the office I had a big concern. Turn you know I was the daughter in law the federal judge who had just been killed and that undoubtedly had something to do with my ability to get hired to that highly sought after your job and I didn't want anyone in the office my new colleagues to think that I couldn't pull my own weight so my strategy when I went on board with volunteered volunteered a second share every case that went to trial. I just literally walked around the office and said Hey do you need help. I'd I'd like to help. We should explain that cases are often team. I'm try- There are two prosecutors on each the first chair would be the lead or perhaps the more senior prosecutor the second chair would be the more junior prosecutor cuter and we were in fact a small enough office that many people tried cases on their own so for some of these folks having a second chair especially somebody coming out of private vet practice who they knew they could get to do some of the written work and right motions responses dot convinced them to take me on and helped me learn how to try cases. You're a luxury sorry. It was nice. I think to be able to do that. I learned a tremendous amount trying cases with people. You know I've been in Washington. I had been in Birmingham. I was unusually blessed as a young associate spend time in court including to try some cases in federal court the Lawyers. The prosecutors in my office were extrordinary extrordinary people and the first case that I tried with one of our senior guys who went on to be a magistrate Judge Harwell Davis Harwell ahead tried a big drug kingpin case and one of his key witnesses had been firebombed after he testified firebombed and killed he was was not killed. Those Molotov cocktail was thrown into a window in their house where their children were sleeping and by great good fortune. Everybody got out. No one was killed. No one was seriously seriously injured but we tried the case and something really interesting happened. During the case on cross examination Shen of one of the witnesses it became apparent that the defense lawyer had been able to access some law enforcement material that he should not have been able to and Harwell immediately realized that there was an ethical problem and he advised the judge edge that we needed to sit down in chambers and deal with the situation. He did it very calmly. There was no perception on the part of the jury that anything thing was wrong. The situation which was sort of complicated was ultimately handled but everything about his bearing the way he conducted himself the integrity ready he approached the situation with he didn't make any unfair accusations he stuck to the facts and in my mind has always been such a picture of integrity eighty and I assume how you conduct yourself how I always tried to. You know you learn on the job right but the most important thing is your integrity and what we always always said in our office was there is no case that was more important than the integrity of the office yeah us to caution young prosecutors new prosecutors and this this is a formulation. I've heard from others takes a lifetime to build a reputation an instant to lose it. You know I think that that's true and for prosecutors because you have an obligation allegation to your community to make sure that you can get convictions in cases you have to protect the integrity rigorously what happened enough for trial Joyce so we convicted a blind man of driving the getaway car from the firebombing strange but true. You'RE GONNA have to explain that. It was a crazy case. The reason that we we had the evidence and identified the defendant was that one of the tires was you know sort of down to the metal and so there was a rut literally a Rut in the road went from the House that was firebombed about two and a half miles back to the house of these guys and they were arrested Tieman. We'd figured all along the Guy who drove the getaway car was the guy with site but as it turned out when they finally decided one of them to talk with us. It was the legally blind guy who drove the getaway getaway car with the other guy telling him go left. Go right go left once they were convicted. They ended up cooperating with you. In other cases one of them cooperated in other cases awesome. That's not unusual particularly in these drug cases where you've got a network of people that are working together. It's very common that they cooperate often before they're convicted. I believe that this cooperation and other evidence eventually led you to a drug kingpin named a Teeny teeny man Roy Mack West. We had a prosecutor in our office who had been state prosecutor named Bob. McGregor and Bob worked in our host to death unit. This was the unit that looked at organized crime and drug-trafficking Traficant. Explain what does seductive is is is a unit that exists I think in the US Attorney's office across the country and you know you have have lower level drug cases which are predominantly handled by state prosecutors have stand for us to death is the organized crime. I'm and Drug Enforcement Task Force units that exist in in every office across the country and go after the most serious organized drug trafficking. OSA death is dedicated to networks that traffic in drugs across state lines often across international lines so who was teeny man teeny man whose this given name was Roy Mack West was from Sand Mountain Alabama. He had a fourth grade education. Ultimately he was indicted on federal drug trafficking charges that he became a fugitive and for the ten years that he was a fugitive on those charges he ran a nationwide drug trafficking organization at the point where we arrested did him. He was running a poly drug organization. He had three farms in New Mexico where he was growing. The marijuana that he sold we took down a meth facility in Arkansas and saw and at the point in time where federal agents went in with a search warrant. They're half a million dollars worth of lab glass in that facility. What do you mean by lab glass the equipment that was used to manufacture methamphetamine so this was at least for Little Birmingham Alabama a very significant significant meth lab probably the biggest formal meth lab we'd seen at that point in time and in the mid nineteen ninety s and meth labs by the way are extraordinarily or can be extraordinarily ordinarily dangerous. I have never put a Meth Cook on the witness stand who hadn't had some sort of explosion the head Meth Cook in this case in fact. I've been blinded in an explosion of some of his stuff. We organization that teeny man ran was it violent. It was violent day used violence to enforce enforce their code of silence. You know this isn't mafia as somebody like. Pat Fitzgerald folks in the Southern District of New York. Thank this is what we call. Dixie mafia and in many ways they were equally violent although motivated by that same you know sort of family connectedness that you see another criminal organizations user code. There was is absolutely a code. You didn't cooperate. You didn't tell that's what enabled somebody like teeny man to avoid federal authorities for ten years. I have to ask you joy so why teeny men Wai Y. was that his nickname he weighed three hundred plus pounds and so that nickname had been given to him years before I became involved in the case between amen go to trial he did go to trial Bob. McGregor and I tried that case together in Birmingham for three weeks a lot of witnesses a lot of complex six moving pieces in that case including witnesses who had to come from the witness security program to testify about some of the cocaine deals her and convicted on on all counts. It wasn't really a close call. Teeny man was represented by three lawyers including now Senator Doug Jones so he was represented very capably the trial Judge Bill Aker. Try to very tight case. It was the outcome that we expected to T- men and up cooperating or were you done at that point never cooperated. We didn't need cooperation. We had obtained the cooperation of some of his lieutenants. We tried additional cases against some major players after that and the importance of doing that of making sure that you go after the key players is interdicting. The supply of drugs and disorganization was responsible for a significant amount of the drugs that were moving into the northern part of Alabama at that point in time were coming from. They came from all over the place. You know I told you that he gruesome marijuana. You WanNa they had connections with traffickers who were bringing drugs across the southern border so they were positioned to appoint were when they lost just one aspect of their supply chain. They could replace it pretty quickly. We've talked on this podcast. with other guests about how receiving a verdict in a federal courtroom is actually a somber moment not a moment for celebration. Did you find that to be the case. I always thought as a prosecutor that if you're we were happy at the point in time where somebody went to jail if you looked that is a happy moment that you needed to be done as a prosecutor because it's never happy when when someone goes to jail it's justice it can be important but they have you know they're individuals with families in a life story even when they're bad people who've heard hurt other people. That's brought them to that path. I've never felt any sense of happiness at that point and a case. I was a prosecutor for a long time and I can probably count on in one hand quite easily. The number of evil defendants that I saw most were greedy reckless or some combination but evil will tend to be something that you saw in movies and not in real life you know I can think of some cases involving child predators where I was happy to see that particular defendant go to jail but not really the notable exception agreed with a few other cases here in their thrown in but most were not able. I think that's right. Hey it's Chris as from MSNBC every day. I come to the office and we make a television show and every day I think to myself. There's so much more. I want to talk about and so this is our podcast. It's called. Why is this happening and the whole idea behind it is to you get to the root of the things that we see Lee out every day. They're driven by big ideas each week. I sit down with a person uniquely suited to explain why this is happening new episodes of why is this happening every Tuesday. Listen for free. Wherever you get your podcasts the last case you tried as an an assistant. US Attorney involved a fascinating set of facts out of a relatively small police department in Boas Alabama. You talk about that. The entire night shift of the Boaz Alabama Police Department took a bad turn their captain had influenced all of the men on his shift and this is a small shift the only five other people but they had realized that they could arrest Hispanics who were working in that area and essentially steal their money so this is just how that worked there are a number of poultry plants in that part of the state and the people who own those plants advertise heavily did at this point in time in newspapers in in Central America for workers so you would have large numbers of people without legal immigration status working in these plans and they were on banked on payday. They would get their check. They would cash it. They didn't deposit into bank. They carried it around this particular Captain Tim Hooks knew that and so he and his men began Gannett practice of arresting these folks on payday holding him overnight on arresting him the following morning they were never charged but keeping their money and this went on for a period creative time until they made the mistake of arresting someone who's an American citizen to that point the undocumented immigrants working in the poultry plants the foreign coming forward to law enforcement to report what had happened to them. That was what made this scheme work. They knew that because these folks were undocumented they would never report the crime and that was why it was able to continue uninterrupted for so long. This was essentially police officers who were sworn to protect people taking advantage of whatever your views are on immigration. These were people who were there to work and they took advantage of that but you began to say one of the people who were arrested rested was actually not an undocumented immigrant day arrested American citizen a young Puerto Rican man who was in Boas visiting some some family and as as soon as he was arrested he went straight to the closest. FBI office Gadsden Alabama he was outraged. He was angry the FBI agents spoke with him and immediately mmediately started to make some connections and so they called me on a Friday afternoon and say don't go home. We're coming to visit Nova Gadston Office of the FBI is what's known known as an Ra right. It's a satellite office of the Birmingham Field Office. Some are as are quite large stands for resident agency. This one was quite small. This was a small office at the time they had four agents and a secretary and it was a great office. I'd done a good bit of work with them. At this point in time. They had some very very senior agents. They were very good at what they did so they called you up. They told you don't go home they were coming to see you. What did they bring they brought a witness and and we sat down and and we talked so Doug Jones seems to always play into my stories because at this point Doug was the US attorney and we talk with Doug about the caisson hasten early the next week. Doug and I drove up to Marshall County where Boaz is to speak with the district attorney up there and we agreed that the case would be handled federally early and so the Gadston agents Did all of the investigation put the case together. You know we had a language problem because back at that point in time we had very little access to translation. Services are witnesses who were all frightened spoke Spanish. It took some doing to convince them to trust us. Many of them did speak English English and once we were able to build relationships we were able to go ahead and put the case together but you have another challenge in a case like that the Code Code of silence that you find in some police departments when there's an investigation of wrongdoing was at an issue here. It was absolutely an issue here. None of these defendants wanted to cooperate with us and we had a series of meetings with these defendants and their lawyers and this was is the sort of a situation where we had to put the case together and then show them what we had an ultimately one by one they began to agree to cooperate until only the captain went to trial because cooperating with you with the FBI meant cooperating against fellow officers they did they all had to take the witness understand they all had to testify against him as it turned out the incident that had put us onto their wrongdoing was not the full extent of their wrongdoing and and they had just been in essence operating like a criminal gang stealing air conditioning units going into car dealerships and getting keys and stealing stuff out of cars and it was shocking because that's not what the face of law enforcement in that part of the state looks like in any way shape or form was a captain convicted he was convicted. was He sentenced to prison he was eight year sentence. Joyce after serving for eighteen years as an assistant. US Attorney who became the acting acting United States attorney for the northern district of Alabama that's right and then soon thereafter you were nominated by President Obama and confirmed by the United States Senate as the US attorney right. I was actually the acting after I'd been confirmed and while I was waiting for confirmation I imagine that being an a USA was an even even better job but being US attorneys agreed privilege. It's an important responsibility and it actually took me a while to be convinced that it was something that that I wanted to do because something that you know is a. US Attorney is the era shorttimer right. You'll only be in the office. During the time that you serve the president who is appointed wanted you so I had to think really hard about whether I was willing to exchange one set of responsibilities for another difference that I struggled without a the two because I always thought of myself as a career prosecutor meaty not a politically appointed one. I thought that way the whole time I was. US Attorney at a hard time remembering bring that I was no longer career right because that becomes the way in which you define yourself one of the things you did as you attorney and I had this honor as well was to serve on the Attorney Attorney General's Advisory Committee. Can you explain what that was and what you did. The role was say the Attorney General has a council of United States attorneys from across the country geographically dispersed from extra large large medium sized and small offices really a bird's eye view that gives the attorney general advice on issues that he or she believes he needs advice on and the the Attorney General's Advisory Committee. It also has a number of subcommittees that deal with different substantive and procedural aspects of the work that's done in. US Attorney's offices and and has focus so early on it and look. I have to say in all honesty the reason that I ended up on. AJC is because early in the Obama Administration Astray Shen the Senate was slow confirming US attorney so there were only five of us for a really long time and I was the only woman Attorney General Eric Holder asked me to serve on HVAC CAC which was an incredible privilege and asked me to co-chaired the criminal practice subcommittee which turned out to be some of the most interesting work that I ted as a US attorney. What was the remit of the committee. What was it looking at. The criminal practice subcommittee looked at a broad spectrum of issues anything having to do with criminal L. Practice early on for instance. We were asked to look at an issue. Involving discovery practices discovery is the evidence that federal prosecutors. Here's are required to turn over to criminal defendants typically at a fairly early stage in the case but there wasn't a uniform practice in the ninety four. US Attorney's offices offices across the country and we were asked to take a look at that and come up with policy similarly an issue came up involving charging and sentencing policy and we were involved in that Attorney General Eric holder though was committed to reforming the criminal justice system and some of the aspects of that weren't working as as well as they could have been and that was where the meat of our work was so. How did you go about that choice. What did you do. It was a big ream. It and I have to tell you chuck. It was an area that ran a a little bit against the grain for a career prosecutor was that the way that I was brought up in my office was to believe that the most important thing that I could do to protect my community. Andy was to get serious criminals off the street and to lock them up for as long as possible criminal justice reform theory looks at the system a a little bit differently and it says we need to think about prevention we need to think about preventing recidivism and it's not always true that putting someone in jail in prison for the longest possible time is the best way of keeping a community say fair enough. There are still some people who need to go to jail for a long long period of time that's absolutely true and and you know the most important work that prosecutors do if if you think about the criminal justice system of a as a three legged stool and you need to keep all three of the legs inbalance and that would be prevention prosecution and re entry or or work to avoid recidivist crime that prosecution. Shen work is the most important work that US attorneys offices do what we tried to work on was building awareness that these other aspects of the problem where things things that we could do in connection with other criminal justice stakeholders in the community and by creating a synergy among people who really weren't used to working together and coordinating dating. We could do a lot to help our communities for instance which groups that you bring into this effort. It's interesting that we had worked with state and local law enforcement like prosecutors. Prosecutors always do on prosecution issues. They were a lot further along though than we were on the prevention side of things and so we developed relationships where we began to work with people in law enforcement and on issues that we had not worked on before we also began to develop some really unusual partners. We developed partners. Here's in public health and you and I have talked about this over the years for instance in the area of addiction where we began to understand that as much as our job is prosecutors. I was to try to cut off the supply of drugs coming into our communities. We could also work with public health to think about the demand for those kinds of drugs right right well. I think one of the important changes in recent years is thinking of addiction as a public health crisis which it is and not as a criminal justice issue. That's a hard switch for prosecutors and you know I've often heard people say when your entire toolkit is a hammer every problem looks like a nail and that's is true and so it's important for prosecutors to understand that they don't have to deal with every problem that comes along that they can make other partners in the community and so I think where we were particularly successful in this came out of the aga see work attorney general holder was big proponent of re entry work work. A lot of people go to prison in this country. Something like one in every four people have contact with the criminal justice system. Most of them are going to go back to their communities and a large number of them will commit new crimes fairly short term after their release said the question becomes he keep that from happening and we began and look at structural issues. What are the problems that people who come out of prison face. It seemed pretty clear that they have a problem getting a job right. We we knew that we didn't fully understand was how difficult it was to for instance. Get a driver's license. Get your social security card. These baby steps is that you have to take before you can even think about getting a job. What do you do if you live in an area with no transportation. How do you get housing. What do you do about medical care and so we began to work with a number of community stakeholders on those issues in Birmingham at the same time that sub committee in Washington was getting an enormous this download of data and information so we could study the problem that wonderful luxury of being exposed to experts and and really understanding the problem with the fresh eyes and then being able in my own district to put some of that information to good use. What type of reception did you get for these initiatives both in your office and in your community in my office. The initial reaction was very cold. We used to say to each other. You know we're not social workers. We would recognize our boundaries. We we're prosecutors. We were there to put people in jail to solve crimes. We weren't there to handle these other aspects of the problem and that is it turns out. Is I think very shortsighted lighted and limited version. It was more difficult for some of the older prosecutors people like me in the office to bridge that gap the younger prosecutors seemed seemed to really access these ideas much more easily but what we ultimately understood was this we were in office like all offices with limited the resources we wanted to use our resources on the most serious crimes crimes that really impacted our community in a negative way if we could keep crime from being committed then we were really serving our community and so we had people who originally were very put off by this notion ultimately invest in some of the community partnerships we we made we didn't anti-gang program that involved bringing in some youth who had committed low level crimes who were susceptible and working working with them and I had prosecutors who gave generously of their time on nights and on weekends to attend those meetings because we began to understand that we could to actually reduce the amount of crime that was being committed with this kind of programming and what about employers in Alabama were they receptive so we had a great partnership CNOR ship. I had actually done some work in Washington with people from the Coke Foundation and coke advocate strenuously for what's called banning box that means that you don't remove somebody from your pool of potential employees just because they have a criminal conviction that you get to know people and an assessed their their talents and make a decision about whether to hire them without knowing about their criminal history. You do learn about it at that later stage. It might impact the kind of job awed you give someone but Mark Holden the foundations. General Counsel is deeply committed to this work. He has an interesting background he started in in Worcester Massachusetts and worked his way through college working in jail so it was a heavy lift to convince Alabama businesses that we should think about banning the box and and hiring people who had convictions right. It's sort of hard notion. Initially and Mark was incredibly gracious. He came down to Birmingham in him. He met with people from across the community including some of our largest employers and we were able to begin to make some inroads in that area ultimately ultimately the city of Birmingham adopted policies where it no longer asks people about criminal convictions early on in the hiring process and many of our large local employers have become to take on a really advanced sort of point of view in that area is that what banning the box refers to not asking a potential employee's to check a particular box on a job application standard job application pretty early on has a bunch of boxes that you check in one is have you ever been convicted of a crime have you ever been arrested and that's what this program proposes not that employers don't collect that information but that they collect it at a later stage in the game and I had one fascinating conversation with a man who was the CEO of a large business that was heavily heavily regulated so he felt like he couldn't employ people with felony convictions in Alabama a company that operated nationally and I said to him sure you know in in your you're regulated positions. You can't hire people but you've got a cafeteria. You've got janitors and the amazing thing was he opened up and told me the story of his sister who had struggled in her twenties who had been arrested who had gone to prison who had problems with drug addiction through life and finally much later in life was able to get our act together and come home and take care of their mother and he had sort of kept that story inside all of those years and he finally told it publicly to help convince other companies that it was important for us to take the step if you're a businessman and you think about this pragmatically if one in four people in your employment pool have some sort of previously disqualifying criminal history you've really cut your pool significantly and there's good data on employing people with with old convictions that says that they make good employees Johns Hopkins. The university has about fifteen years of data now. They aggressively hire people with convictions. They find that they're loyal employees. They don't have problems on the job and they don't re-offend once. They have that job so generally speaking. It's working. I think it's working well. One of the things you also worked on and this was in the civil division of your. US Attorney's office in Birmingham was a bill passed by the Alabama Legislature H. B. Fifty six before I ask you about. HP Fifty six say a word about the civil division because they do extraordinary work work around the country in US attorney's offices but we sometimes don't sing their praises enough. Everyone knows what criminal prosecutors do right they they prosecute when people people violate the law but civil divisions are incredibly important and I think you're right. Chuck people don't know about their work and they should know about their work not only did they defend defend the United States when it gets sued they collect in some cases significant debts owed to the United States couldn't be collected without their hard work every a year that I wish US attorney. My Office made more in in those collections than it cost to run the office. We were very good bargain for the tax payer because of the dedicated employees choice the civil unit and in cases like the one we're about to discuss. Hbo Fifty Six sometimes the Civil Division lawyers became plaintiff's lawyers players and in my office now typically in involved protecting the civil rights of people in our district so explain please Joyce. Alabama's legislature passed asked H. B. Fifty six it was a measure that they described as deport yourself immigration bill and the goal was to make life so miserable for undocumented people living in Alabama that they would leave and there's only one problem with that and it's not about immigration policy and where you stand on those issues. It's a constitutional issue you under the tenth amendment. The state of Alabama didn't have the right to create legislation that was contrary to federal policy. That was the argument. You're positing that was the argument that we made you know in in some areas. Congress has articulated federal interest and said that the federal government will set policy on issues immigration is one of those issues and it's pretty easy to understand in a football game. If you had fifty different quarterbacks throwing passes is it would be a mess. Immigration is the same sort of an issue. You've gotTa have one quarterback imagine being a foreign country and having to deal with different rules some fifty different states. It would just be impossible. So what did you do initially we tried to convince the Attorney General in Alabama that he shouldn't defend the bill that it was clearly Lianne constitutional that didn't work and so along with colleagues from DOJ. Tom Perez who was then the head of the Civil Rights Division and Tony West. WHO IS THE HEAD. If the Civil Division we filed lawsuit the Federal Government Interestingly enough had standing to challenge some aspects of of the bill there were a number number of objectionable provisions but just because we thought they were wrong headed provision didn't mean we could go to court and sue over them and what is standing main joyous standing is who has a right to challenge faulty provision in a law and because we couldn't challenge everything in the law that we thought was unconstitutional. There are actually two parallel suits that were filed along with ours one was filed on behalf of the Episcopal Church and the Catholic Affleck Church and there were issues because parts of the bill made it illegal for religious volunteers who had been in the practice of driving people who were undocumented documented to doctors appointments and other appointments the bill made that a criminal act and so the faith based institutions came into challenge that and then there was another lawsuit lawsuit that was filed by the Southern Poverty Law Center and the ACLU challenging some other provisions of the bill but the three suits were put together they were combined in front of one judge and preceded together what happened in front of the District Court. We were successful in invalidating some of the provisions but not all that we challenge the case ended up in the eleventh circuit. We were successful in challenging about ten of the provisions of the bill essentially gutting the worst provision Asians in the bill and the Supreme Court did not take the case on Cert- so that eleventh circuit holding steady now interestingly some of the local law enforcement departments in Alabama had a view on this which was perhaps not what you would have expected. I think that's true one of the provisions of the bill required state state and local law enforcement when they came across someone who is undocumented to turn them over to the federal government that might not sound like a big deal but it means that if you're a Birmingham police officer or police officer in a small police department in Rural Alabama and you make a traffic stop in one of the people involved as undocumented minute. You have to stay with that person on the side of the road sometimes for hours until a federal agent could get to you. We had an immigration strategy edgy in my district. Our priority was to prosecute people who were violent criminals. We didn't have the resources to prosecute. Everybody who was out of status are our decision was to go after the ones who were a danger to the community to prioritize your work which is whatever US Attorney's Office does and we did that in coordination with state and local law enforcement they they all understood the priority we worked together on it but the Alabama Bill criminalised in essence mere presence and misallocated law enforcement resources so sheriffs sheriffs and chiefs were uniformly up in arms about the bill. Many of them didn't feel like politically like they could do that. Publicly sheriffs are elected in Alabama Alabama but we did at the time where we filed a lawsuit had affidavits from chiefs and sheriffs three of them who publicly went on record and just said this bill is bad. It missed allocates law enforcement resources. It won't let us do the best job we can do at keeping our community safe. Do they pay a price politically for that interestingly they didn't it didn't cost any of them at all. One of the ironies of this bill was the people he passed it and the people who defended it for certain in the Attorney General's office they had good intentions but as we were further into litigation one of the lawyers on the other side told me I didn't understand when this bill passed that it would have the impact of tearing families apart and this happened in twenty. Eleven immigration wasn't really on the national radar screen like it is today. The biggest problem with this bill was it did result in that it resulted in kids who went to school and when they got home their mom or their dad wasn't there. It was heartbreaking. Do Miss the work I do. I think I'll always miss the work. All always miss the people in fact this morning before I came to meet you. I was on the phone with the current. US Attorney in Birmingham someone who have a lot of respect for and and I'm I missed the office but he said something to me. They had just gone through an office evaluation. They came through with flying colors which made me really happy. It was something that each office has to do every three or four or five years and we really look forward to it boy oh boy but Jay told me that they had come through and when he had spoken to the office afterwards he had made sure to give me credit which was crazy he's two years in and he's doing a tremendous. Mantis job and so although I missed the office I take a lot of comfort knowing good people doing good work on behalf of all of us Joyce all of us who grew up in the the US attorney community had mentors. I know you must have had mentors as well. Would you talk about one or two of them. I had a wonderful office when I joined it was small and and it was close and the criminal chief was a lawyer named Bud Henry who'd been in the office almost forever. We didn't have a lot of women in the office. In fact there was is a point in time where I was when I was in the criminal division where if I wanted to have lunch with other women in the office I sat down and ate at my desk alone and so without absence of role models it was particularly important to have a good mentor and Bud was outstanding mentor what he instilled was this notion that the integrity of the office the integrity of the prosecutors mattered more than anything else and so the ethic in our office when you had a problem was not to solve it on your own. It was to grab everybody that you could sit down and to get different opinions and to move forward but in terms of helping you figure out how you know those difficult things that prosecutors have to understand. When do you have enough evidence. Wendy need to push back until you're agents to go back and get more hattie charge case. What's what's the right way to charge a case what's not charging and defendant too heavily but at the same token not too lightly those sort of judgement calls but had such a nice way of teaching those issues and and never making you feel stupid which I spent a lot of time feeling stupid as a young prosecutor. I still feel stupid just about every day we are our bud. Henry in the Eastern District of Virginia was a man named Justin Williams. I remember back in the day when we actually had libraries libraries that the library coming out of my office was to the right and Justin coming into my office sat to the left and I never went to the right because the answer was always is to the left it was always to walk down to Justin's office. He had been there forever. He was the criminal chief and it didn't matter who you were how much tenure you had in the office us. He will drop everything he was doing. If you knocked on his door and ask for help you became the most important thing in his professional life while you were in his office office and that was comforting right knowing that you had somebody that you could go to who'd help you make the right decision because as a young prosecutor you have a lot of discretion. I talked to one of our senior judges in Birmingham. When I first went on duty a wonderful judge named Clarence all good and he told me that I would have more authority and more power whereas a thirty one year old prosecutor then really anybody should have and what was the most important thing for me was to remember that cases that we charged they weren't statistics that that was a living human being on the other end of that case that was the same sort of message that but Henry always had for us and we were told was to always do the right thing so what is the goal of the criminal justice system in your view I mean obviously it's justice and integrity and respect and responsibility responsibility but what were you trying to accomplish today justice that simple I think it is that simple. It's making sure that the system functions with integrity that treats everybody fairly that we protect the community that's not to say that the system is perfect and and we know that their issues with the system but we have to always work towards making it a better system of system is nothing more than a group of men and women and people are fallible. Human beings are that's absolutely right and I think the one of the things that good prosecutors learn is that they're not infallible and that they have to admit when they make mistakes learn from them and move forward and I remember there was a point in time when Sally Yates was the deputy attorney general and she became very interested in in the notion of implicit bias which simply simply says that we're all human beings. Our brains are hard-wired to accept messages from around us from media and advertising and sometimes our brains function. Even though we're good the people who aren't I don't believe that we're discriminatory in any way but sometimes those messages can cause us to act in that way with implicit bias and Sally became committed the training for both agents and prosecutors. You know a lot of people didn't like that. A lot of people felt like that was accusing them. Maybe being racist but good prosecutors understand stand that we have to always be open to examining our behavior to make sure that the system works the way it's intended to when you make a mistake identify it admitted and fix absolutely and sometimes that means telling federal judge that you've made a mistake and those are never easy moments but that's what the law and our oath demands of US Jewish. There's another passion passion in your life which I have to ask you about. You've talked about your knitting community time to give a shoutout to your knitting community. nigger is a really wonderful people so here's something interesting that I learned chuck a lot of the pellet lawyers at DOJ and in the state system are niggers and niggers. Go on retreats like other people with similar interests. I STU and I would hang out with other niggers who were appellate lawyers inevitably but knitting is is wonderful. There's nothing like knitting to make the time that you're waiting between when the jury gets your case and when they return a verdict tolerable I was always a bad waiter when one of my jurors was deliberating on a verdict and knitting helps and what do you do with the stuff that you make. I have four kids so I need socks and hats and I forced them upon my children and hope that they wear them all Joyce. It's really a pleasure to have you on the thank you for doing this. Thanks for having me check. Thanks Joyce Vans for joining me today you can see Joyce on Msnbc where she shares her wisdom. As a legal analyst you can follow her on twitter order and of course in her knitting circles. If you like this episode please leave us a five star rating on your favorite APP and write a good review and if you have any thoughtful criticisms the feedback or questions about this episode or others please email us at the Oth podcast a g mail DOT COM. That's all one word. The oath podcast had Jim L. Dot com though I cannot personally respond to every email please know that I read each one and that I definitely appreciate it thank you the the oath is a production of NBC News and they mess NBC. This podcast was produced by the wonderful team at Fan. Icho with Vanik Cohen Nick Bannon and Robbie Title Barbara Rob is our senior producer and Steve Lick is our executive producer thanks to Archie Moore and the good folks at clean cut studios in Washington. DC for for hosting today's interview this is Chuck Rosenberg. Thank you so very much for listening. What happens when a true crime show becomes part of the story. Hold onto onto your seats. The thing about Pam is the chart-topping podcast series from dateline and Keith Morrison. This is a strange story a strange in story and the career of strange stories things became personal. All episodes are available now. Wherever you get your podcasts join join us for the ride on the thing about pan.

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The Merit Trap (with Michael Sandel)

Stay Tuned with Preet

1:25:32 hr | 4 months ago

The Merit Trap (with Michael Sandel)

"From cafe welcome to stay tuned. I'm pre- BERAR. People who have technocratic expertise. But who lack human judgment? And experience. Practical, wisdom. Sense of history. They've gotten us if you if you just look back at at the last. Half Century. Gotten us. Into some pretty. Dangerous. Political circumstance that's Michael Sandel. He's an esteemed philosophy professor at Harvard. I sat in his classroom many years ago to learn about justice during his four decades at the school. He's inspired thousands of others explore thorny ethical issues this week Professor Sandals publishing a new book, the tyranny of Merit what's become of the common good Sandal and I talk about the roots of America's obsession with meritocracy and why we might need to retire the word smart. That's coming up. Stay tuned. If. You're hunting for a vintage rare or new watch check out ebay. It's massive inventory can help you find the exact time piece searching for and your purchase will be backed by its authenticity guarantee no fakes no fraud. No doubt. That's because independent experts meticulously inspect your watch before it ships find your dream time piece of ebay dot com slash luxury watches today. The expert journalism and Apple News plus is now easier than ever to enjoy. Now, you can read and listen to leading newspapers and magazines anytime anywhere on your iphone with audio stories. curated by top editors here the most thought provoking articles out loud from the Los Angeles Times New York magazine Time and more. Tune, in on your run in the car at the park or wherever you go, start your free one-month trial of news plus today inside the Apple News. APP. New Subscribers only terms apply. For. Let's get to your questions. This question comes into tweet from Twitter User Darren K. H. who writes don't understand how actions prior to his term can engage the resources to the DOJ defend Hashtag asprey thanks Darren for your question. I've gotten this question a lot over the last twenty, four hours through obviously referring to the case of Aegina Carol Against Donald Trump. Gene Carroll is a woman who claims that many years ago Donald Trump raped her after she made those allegations Donald Trump said in return that she was Aligarh was making up she has since filed a defamation suit against the sitting president and the president's lawyers personal lawyers have been defending that in New, York State Court, and what happened this week is that the Department of Justice Itself Important Department within the government has essentially intervened and filed a notice of removal. Means just to sort of a emotion to change the court from New York State Court to the Southern District of New York federal, court, and lots of people have been asking the question. Why is the president's defense now suddenly going to be paid for by the taxpayer and be defended by the Department of Justice? Well, the first thing I'll say is it is in the ordinary course of Department of Justice responsibility to defend suits against federal employees when they have acted within the scope of their official duties. So they've engaged in conduct that is being attacked in some way in the civil lawsuit it is the Department of Justice after a certification has made that was in the scope of official duties they. Take on the responsibility that was true when Criminal USA's in my office were sued by people, are civil division will take over the defence after certification and there's nothing abnormal about that the question here the reason people raising their eyebrows like this person in the tweet is how could it be that this conduct by the president was part of his official duties let me just make one response to the tweet which asks how can actions prior to put his term, engage the resources to the DOJ. So the alleged rape happened before the pos term, but the conduct that causes the suit to arise the lawsuit to arise did happen while he was president and that was the defamation itself the accusing of the. Of being a liar, but that doesn't answer the question of how that could possibly be within the scope of the president's duties. We have a simple declaratory statement by the government in moving the case to the southern district of New York which states quote James G to junior director of the towards branch within the Civil Division of the Department of Justice certify that the defendant. Employee President Trump was acting within the scope of his office or employment at the time of the incident out of which the claim arose goes on to say, the claim asserts defamation based on a written statement issued to the press and two statements. The president made an interviews in June, twenty nineteen in which the president vehemently denied accusations made in plaintiff then forthcoming book and quote. Aside from the question of whether or not the president is, in fact, a quote unquote employees of the government which academics have raised a question about the mere fact that the audience was made while Donald Trump was president I think most legal experts will say doesn't qualify as something done within the scope of official duties in employment I am not an expert myself on the federal. Tort claims. act. But there are a lot who've been posting on social media and I am finding little support based on the certification made for the proposition that we tax payers should be paying for this defense. Former guest on stay tuned professor Steve vladeck posted a tweet in which he said DOJ is allowed indeed it is required to take over toward suits against federal officials for torts committed within the scope of their employment. But how is claiming the Carolina about a decades old rape allegations within the scope of trump's employment as president question Mark Exclamation Mark Question Mark. It's a lot of punctuation for Steve and our friend George Vance for me was. Attorney. From Alabama tweeted, quote DOJ gives legal representation to federal employees suit for actions within the scope of their employment. So we're now footing the bill for trump's defense based on the ludicrous claim that he was acting as police. When he called E. G. Carroll Aligarh trump also said she's not my type I don't think that's within the scope of his presidential duties either end quote but just to be certain I consulted with a former superstar from the civil. Division in St why? Why worked with very closely over the years and just in case I was missing something because sometimes quick analysis on social media doesn't get to the heart of the matter I asked my former colleague is this bonkers or arguably legit in my former civil division colleague replied I'd say outrageous I see the argument that the Federal Tort Claims Act applies if the government official committed the alleged tour while acting within the scope of. His official duties, and here he committed the alleged tour defamation while he was president. But that can't have been within the scope of his official duties and the real alleged conduct happened way before he was president. So I'll stick with outrageous and quote. So there you have it very little support I. don't understand exactly how they're making this argument in good faith I've seen very little support of it. We'll see how the case proceeds in the southern district. This question comes in an email from David who writes quote with the possibility of DC statehood bubbling up political conversations lately I started to wonder about the effect it could have on blue slip procedures for the District of Columbia in DC circuit courts then I realized I, didn't know how the Senate handles those courts now and I haven't found any answers. To some version of the blue slip norm apply to these courts and what implications might statehood pose judicial appointments. Thank you. Well, thanks David. So the blue slip policy norm is something I was familiar with during the time that I was working in the United States Senate on the Judiciary Committee it's not enshrined in any statute or regulation it's basically a Senate tradition of respect for. Home State Senators. So it has been for a long time in the past. The practice of the Judiciary Committee led by a Chairman Democrat or Republican that any appointment of a district court judge an appeals court judge a US attorney or US Marshall from a particular district must have the assent to go forward by the home state senators and there's a slip. It's actually colored blue. That the senator signs upon receiving a nomination of one of those types that I mentioned and the senator can either check a box that says is approve check a box that says I don't approve or just not blue slip all for many many years. If both the United States senators from a particular state did not check the approved box. The nomination wouldn't go forward. There'd be no hearing. There'd be no vote in recent years during the trump administration that policy with respect to blue slips and the courtesy has not. been accorded for Circuit Court nominees, appeals, court nominees. That's one level below the Supreme Court that has been somewhat controversial but they had proceeded without necessarily requiring the consent of all the home state senators recall it. All appeals court judges come from circuits that encompass more than one state. So if you haven't appeals court judge there might be three or four or five states implicated and you would have to have blue slips from all of those states and lately Republicans have not been honoring the Blue Slip with respect to those seats. I believe there have been some exceptions to the honoring of blue slips for district judges but enlarge it's my understanding after having consulted with a lawyer in the committee that in most cases they have continued to be honored with Spec district judges in US attorneys in US marshals asked DC you're absolutely correct there is no blue slip process because there is no United States senator from DC because it's not a state there has been. From time to time respect and courtesy accorded to Eleanor Holmes Norton the delegate to the House during the Obama Administration in the Clinton administration she was allowed to put forth recommendations for the court, but there's no blue slip procedure. For DC, I would presume DC were to become a state, but we're far from that point that whatever the blue. Slip. Practices for New, York or California or Texas or Florida would also apply to DC. This question comes in an email from Max who writes big Fan of the show and book you've spoken a lot about the DOJ memo federally charging a sitting President with a crime does this also pertained to state agencies for example president. Trump recently encouraged North Carolina voters to try and vote twice, which is a state crime. North Carolina put the North Carolina AG indict the president. was interesting question with affected whether or not the president committed a crime by encouraging voters to to try to vote twice I don't think it's quite they're getting a bit more that was dating people sort of eagerly suggesting that the president could be charged with a crime and I don't think that as a matter of substance a prosecutor. North. Carolina is going to take that step. Ask You a question about whether or not the DOJ memo applies or pertains to stay Jeez while on its face, it does not. It only binds people within the Justice Department United Attorneys and people and people who headquarters in the Department of Justice and also special counsels like Robert. Muller on its face, it does not apply to state agee's we have a system of federalism and policies in rules and statutes that apply to the federal government and federal prosecutors don't apply separate rules apply to each state. All fifty states have different rules in different procedures. So a North Carolina prosecutor would not be bound by the guidance. Of the obsolete legal counsel memo but is, I, think I've said before you would expect that the underpinning of that off the legal counsel memo whether you like it or not would be the argument that would be made by the president and his lawyers. If there was a charge filed against the president in other words that the presidency is too important to be interfered with while the president is sitting in office. Some people think that's a week. Claim some people think that's a strong claim. The memo doesn't apply, but arguably the policy underlying the memo that's been confirmed twice I after Watergate than after Bill Clinton. was impeached. Some people find that principle to be persuasive and that would be the argument that the president's lawyers would make. But again, I don't see an indictment happening with respect to that conduct. 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I'm going to get to your book congratulations on yet another book but I on a personal note for those folks who may not remember may not have listen to our special one hundredth episode of stay tuned where you were the special guest. I wanted to remind folks that not only are you just a college professor you remind professor yes some thirty, thirty, two years ago in a highly regarded class called justice I still remember the title and the number moral reasoning twenty two and I know I've told you this before but I want our various tens of millions of listeners to also know that you had a profound influence on me and we're really important in my formation. One of I think teachers have had in my life so for good or ill. A lot of what I've done after was spurred on by you. And so I thank you for that. It's a real treat to have you. Well, it means a lot to me pre really does you must get that a lot over the years. Well, it's it's something special coming from you. So your book, the tyranny of Merit. What's become of the common good. It's a great read. It is I opening I liked it so much that I offered a blurb for the for the back of the book and I think it's something everyone should read in part because it make some arguments and bring some perspectives that I think people don't usually have that. It'll be surprising to a lot of folks and we'll get into more in a moment some of your theses in a moment. But as you point out in the book. Almost. Every conversation debate discussion that we have on the issue of merit and meritocracy is about how we make society or an organization or institution more meritocratic is second guessing of the concept notion Ameritech. REC- to begin. With. which you spend a lot of time on. But before we get to that to that thesis I wonder if you could explain folks what you understand to be the sort of the traditional definition of meritocracy when people talk about that whether it's a politician or school principal or a CEO what is it that they mean by? What they mean is that people should be able to rise as far as their effort and talents will take them and. If there's a level playing field if chances are equal. Those land on top will have deserved. Their success can say to themselves. I earned. My success was my own doing, and therefore I deserved the benefits that go with lending on top. That's the idea and in many ways, it's an attractive idea. Attractive why? Because it gets to the heart of what people think justices it certainly gets to an aspect of justice that aspect of justice that is about. Removing barriers to achievement so that people can rise. Unencumbered by prejudice or the disadvantage of the circumstances, their birth. That's all a good thing. That's all an important part of just society. The dark side comes. When people? Who are successful? Inhale too deeply of their success. When they forget. The luck and good fortune. That help them on their way. This induces but I call like kind of meritocratic Hubris among the successful, and this has become a growing feature, our public culture especially among those who have flourished in the new economy over the past four decades the age of globalisation of meritocracy. And this is corrosive of the common good because the more the successful believed they did it on their own. In deserve what they've won. The less open they are. To identifying with those less fortunate. Than themselves, that's where the dark side comes in. And that's where meritocracy has fueled. I think the resentment of those who feel that elites look down on them Before we talk more about that dark side, what are the origins historically and in particular in this country of this aspiration for Takeuchi was coined relatively recently only in the late fifties. By a British sociologist named Michael Young who was affiliated with the Labor Party and what's interesting is when he coined the term meritocracy, he saw it not as an ideal to aim at nowadays the definition of a just society, but it's a dystopia. Because he thought while it was a good thing that the class system in the hierarchy of birth was breaking down in Britain he saw. That once chances were truly equal or perceived to be equal. There would be a widening gulf between the winners and losers that would generate resentment. But what happened after he wrote in coined that term is that meritocracy came to be regarded as an ideal by politicians in public discourse. Precisely, because as we were just discussing preet, it seems to describe the project. Of bringing about a more a society with equal opportunity where chances are equal where everyone can rise regardless of the circumstances of their birth or their background, their race or their ethnicity, and so this was an alluring part of the meritocratic project and people forgot or overlooked. The dark side, and so it almost became this idea of rising based on your effort and talents. It almost became a trope, a slogan, a mantra of our politics. Across the political spectrum, the main political project was to create a society where everyone could rise based on his or her own talents efforts, and we lost sight of the dark side. Which, Michael Young back in the late nineteen fifties had been alive too when he coined the term. so you write about the particular emphasis on the notion Ameritech was in the United States. Obviously, the idea and the principal is not unique to the US but I was startled to see you cite the following statistics you write in your book asked what factors are very important to get ahead in life Americans overwhelmingly by seventy three percent put hard work, I? And you go on to say in Germany barely half consider hard work very important to getting ahead in France. Only one in four does maybe that's why they have a lot of vacation in France. What what accounts for this disparity among Western countries it is fascinating and a stock discrepancy. I think it has to do with the tradition of American individualism. The longstanding faith and belief that freedom consists in individual mobility. Whereas the social democracies of Europe have. Seen Freedom as more a feature of a community of a certain kind. They always conceived the individual as embedded or situated in a community that shapes our destiny, and this may explain to why the welfare states of Europe have generally been more generous than that of the United States because we are deeply wedded to this idea of individual initiative individual responsibility. And individual mobility. In. Fact we've always we belong said that we don't really need to worry so much about inequalities of income and wealth because unlike those Europeans in America, it's always possible to rise from the condition of your birth. So we've always comforted ourselves with the thought that mobility individual mobility chance to rise is our alternative. To, equality. But as things have turned out, we actually now in the US had less mobility one generation to the next than many. European countries do it's harder to rise from being born into a poor family To into affluence in the US. Than it is in Europe. So today's that comforting thought. that. We don't need to worry about inequality because people are not consigned to the fate of their parents or their family background. We may need to think more directly to contend more directly with inequality because actually having a more equal society creates a more mobile society rather than the other way round. So in court, you're saying meritocracy not only has a dark side. It's also a myth. It is a myth in practice. It doesn't fit the facts on the ground. It's more likely that a child born into a poor family will rise. To the top say top twenty percent of income earners as an adult. That's more likely to happen in Canada or Germany or Denmark than in the United States. So one might say that the American dream is alive and well and living in Copenhagen. So, there is Amiss. There is a kind of a myth. The ideal of rising doesn't fit the facts on the ground and I think one of the reasons that we hear it here here, the the slogan from politicians both parties everyone should have a chance to rise as far. Their efforts and talents will take them the rhetoric pricing as I call it. One of the reasons we've heard this. So repeatedly, really just in the last four decades that's when it came into American public discourse is these precisely the decades when it actually seems to be the case that it was easy to rise in. America by contrast with the condition in other democracies. These days hiring can be tricky for small business owners. The pandemic has made money tight for millions. Monica. starks could relate Monica needed to hire for a pivotal role at our construction company GS group, but was having a tough time finding the right person especially with so many candidates out there. So she switched Ziprecruiter Ziprecruiter doesn't depend on candidates finding you it finds them for you. 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You have a whole chapter or section of the book dedicated to that and I've been thinking about not only politicians use that terminology and that rhetoric I've used it on a number of occasions when I talked about America being special on talk about the fact that my parents. In their both special also common immigrant story came to the United States and by dint of hard work my father who came here with nothing became successful doctor had two kids and. You know it's an inspiring story in immigrants tell those stories all the time and not just immigrants, lots of folks because there are lots of particular examples. Notwithstanding the overall statistics that you mentioned, there are a lot of particular I. I still think inspiring examples of people being mobile and going from the bottom rung to the top rung. How should how should those people talk about those things in other words? With respect to particular stories. Is it counterproductive to tell stories that may inspire some to rise? It depends on how the story is told. And whether the story carries with it, and whether the experience encourages those who do rise and these are deeply moving stories. especially. The one that you're describing it about immigrant families those are deeply moving stories. But looking at those stories more closely. We often find in those who tell them often recognize a sense of responsibility and obligation. For those who didn't make up the rungs of the ladder So immigrant communities very often have in addition to a faith in rising a persisting sense of solidarity with the members of their community that didn't succeed. In climbing the rungs of the ladder. And so that's the concern. What makes those stories inspiring? Is the those who make it to the top? Not, only take pride in their achievements. And not only have gratitude. To their parents and grandparents. Who may have endured. To enable that assent But WHO RECOGNIZE The good fortune associated with that assent. The luck and good fortune, the support of family and community that helped them on their way. And therefore, Hatha a claim on them. So what makes the the story the immigrant story of upper mobility most resonant? And satisfying morally is when it's accompanied by an appreciation of what a gift this is in also that the folks who did not necessarily make that journey should not be denigrated you right of the quote smug conviction of those who land on top that they deserve their fate and those at the bottom deserved. There's also it's also a failure of empathy is as well. You think yes, and I think that this exactly is is the Question Creek you put your finger on it. So those individuals, those communities that rise but with a sense of gratitude. With a sense of indebtedness. Intact a more likely to have a commitment to the community, a sense of responsibility that grows out of gratitude even kind of humility and appreciation. These moral sentiments are very different from what all too often accompanies the harsh meritocracy we have today. Which? The idea of individuals making it on their own forgetting. The communities? The Fortune? The lock, the sense of indebtedness that made it possible for them to flourish for them to succeed and that I, think that that sense to pubis among the successful. The tendency to look down on those less credential less fortunate than themselves. This I think is what makes galling the divide between winners and losers in our society that divide has deepened. Over the past four decades. And it is only a matter of economic inequality. That has deepened it. It's also to do with harsher attitudes towards success. The have accompanied that divide between winners and losers and this I think. Over time has has poisoned our politics and driven US apart and it it it contributes to the polarization that we're experiencing today. Because as you right the more that people who win think that they have won because of their effort and virtue or any other positive quality the more they tend to think that the people who haven't as we said before. Deserve their fate and if you do that persistently decade after decade after decade at some point, those people who haven't been able to be mobile and climb up the rungs of the ladder they start to feel what humiliation and what else Humiliation resentment, essense elites her looking down on them a sense that society doesn't value. The contributions they make. There's one other ingredient to this story. which is the idea that the major political parties mainstream politicians have encouraged and promoted. In recent decades that the inequalities created by globalisation can be addressed. If only people will equip themselves to compete and win in global economy by getting a college degree. Preferably one from a brand name university do any like. I I do and some of my best friends. Some of my best friends teach at Harvard, but this is a political of course, I'm all in favor of. Encouraging people to go to college making it possible for people who can't afford it to be able to go increasing access? Those are good. Noble and precious. Aspirations so of course, I'm in favor of that. But what I'm what I'm critical out in the book is the tendency of politicians who have embraced a kind of market driven version of globalisation to say, yes, it's true. The median worker has had stagnant wages for for decades. Yes. It's true. There is growing inequality of income and wealth, but the solution is. For all workers to get the kind of college degree that will enable them to rise has that political project. Seems to me a kind of cop-out because it really says you're struggling in the new economy. It's because of you it's because you haven't pulled up your sex gotten into a prestigious college or university because if you had then you could rise. But what this MRS is that the rungs on the ladder are growing further and further apart. And politicians and political parties especially ones who claim to be progressive need to address that to not only to say if you get a prestigious college degree then. You will probably succeed in scrambling up the rungs of that ladder more successful than you otherwise would. So what I'm against is using college as as kind of response to inequality what that forgets breed, and this is something that's easy to forget for those of us who spend our days in the company of the well credential. Let it forget. Is that most Americans don't have. A four year college degree nearly two-thirds don't. So it's folly to create an economy. The set says the precondition. Of dignified work in a decent life it, you have a four year college degree that leaves out the majority of Americans, and I think progressive parties the Democratic Party in the US and Social Democratic Parties in Europe are paying the price that kind of tendency to ignore. The, the importance of improving the lives of people who haven't been to college but who do make important contributions to our economy and to our society yet you write in your book at one point quote. One of the most galling features of meritocratic Hubris is it's credential him and you talk about this issue. Of College versus Non College as one of the last acceptable prejudices. Yeah. It intuitively we sense and in many working people feel. That credential they leads look down on those who lack a college degree and don't value the workday do especially as more and more prestige to say nothing of remuneration. Has Devolved to those in two elite professionals and in those in the financial industry and so on. But from time to time event, bring us up short. I mean think of the pandemic can away where suddenly. Applauding for essential workers thanking essential workers, delivery people, people who work in grocery stores, truckers, home healthcare workers. People who are not well paid and who are not widely honored in our society. Now, we're calling them essential workers. and. It's an occasion to reflect. On just how we value the and how well we recognize the contributions that people make regardless of whether they do work. That requires a college degree. So I think we need to. We need to reorient her politics away from arming people for merit critic combat or competition, and putting instead at the center of our politics, the question of the dignity of work. And ask how we can make life better in accord greater dignity and respect. To people from all walks of life regardless of their educational attainment who make. Contributions through the work they do families they raise in the communities they serve. I want to go back to this idea of. Whether or not meritocracy itself is a good idea. Rabat as I mentioned at the beginning, most of the debate is you in the book is about how do we get to America crecy? And you ask the question and I'd like you to tell the listeners what your answer is and what the analysis. You. Ask the question what a perfect meritocracy digest. What? No I don't think it would and I'll tell you why in a in a minute. But first, it's important to recognize that we fall far short of the meritocratic principles we profess. We've. been talking about, universities. To take one example the. Competitive. Selective universities at the Ivy. League universities, there are more students. From the top one percent. Than there are from the entire bottom half of the country. And this is despite generous financial aid policies. So successful and affluent parents had figured out how to pass their advantages, their privileges onto their kids, and it has to do with equipping them often through a kind of stress strewn strenuous. Adolescent period in high school years to compete effectively to get into these these selective universities but even if Even if we could fix that. Even if we could establish perfectly. Equal opportunity. Would that make for a just, society. Well, it would be an improvement. Over a society where people were held back due to being born to poor families. So held back due to racial and ethnic prejudice or or gender based prejudice it would be an improvement over that, but it would not be enough to create a just society because. Think about who would win the race even in a perfect meritocracy, the fastest runner, the fastest runner. But is it really my doing not that I am a fast runner but really the doing of the fastest runner. A to have the gift, the endowment, the natural talent. To run as fast as Seigne. Bolt. Or is that his is that our Good luck. So even a society that reward where the winners one having started at the same starting point. There are differences of talent and there's a further thing. Let's take concrete example Lebron. James is a great basketball player. and. He works hard to cultivate his talents not only is he not himself solely responsible for being gifted? An athlete as he is, but it's also, is it really his doing? That, he happens to live in a society. Loves basketball. Or is that his good luck? If he lived back in Renaissance Italy. Where they didn't much care for basketball. They like fresco painters more than basketball stars. He wouldn't be at the top of top of the earning scale. is now. So either example you give which I like when you mentioned Lebron James is you're sure that there is someone who can arm wrestle as well as Lebron James Plays basketball, right but that poor fellow is not making hundreds of millions of dollars because the market is not configured for the wrestler right? We're. We're we're not wild about arm-wrestling we don't flock to see it. And and by the by the sneakers running shoes of the people who are good at it. So even if you put aside the contingency of having. Certain gifts to arm wrestle well or to be great at basketball. Or Science or whatever. The fact that we happen to live in a society that prizes the qualities we happen to have that too is not our own doing. It's a matter of our good luck and we should be a little bit humble in recognizing bat especially those of us. Who who flourish, whose talents are for whatever reason in high demand we should be? We should have a little humility in the face of that good fortune. So these are the reasons why even in principle breed. A perfect meritocracy understood is one where there were living level playing field ben the race began, and then the winters got their winnings. These questions would still have to be asked about how we distribute those winnings and to what end right because in part the idea of meritocracy. I. Think is the elimination of prejudice and bias and things that hold you back but the elimination. Of Luck Yeah Right. Everyone has equal opportunity and because of the nature of talent and how that's given to us not because we've done anything to deserve it. We don't deserve our talents and a perfect meritocracy by definition. Still. Rewards look right and not only rewards it economically in material terms with income and wealth, but also rewards it. In terms of honor and recognition and prestige and Socialists team, and this is the most fateful aspect of the. Will of the anger that arises against. MERITOCRATIC, elites. People may consider that a system that doesn't pay them. All that well compared to others who don't seem to be making far greater contribution to the economy. People may consider that unfair and may protest against it. But if you also look around. And FIND THOSE WHO REAP Millions even billions. By making contributions that aren't obviously connected to. Contributing to the common good. And and if you feel the society looks down on your contributions. and. Doesn't really accord dignity. To the kind of work. That's less honored. That generates more than a sense of unfairness. It can generate a sense of humiliation and of resentment and anger and I think that's the kind of resentment that's animated the populous backlash against elite set we've we've seen well certainly since two thousand sixteen. So I wanNA, complicate a little bit more and as you do in the book, it's not so simple as we don't deserve our talents there's also this other thing called effort and people tend to think well, I get it that I was born tall and I was you know maybe endowed with certain athletic ability but that didn't automatically you know since me a spot in the NBA so I worked. I. Applied a lot of effort and I trained and I trained and I trained the same as you point out for musicians before they can get to. Carnegie Hall I Will Never Get to Carnegie Hall I will never get to the no matter how much I work no matter how much I practice, but it still is the case for people who achieved the most success. There's a pretty considerable amount of effort. Does effort make people worthy and how do you? Analyze that in connection with meritocracy. I think effort striving are admirable up to a point. We don't admire and shouldn't admire people who are who are indolent or who fail to cultivate their talents or who don't care about contributing to the economy or to their family or their community. So Up to a point. Initiative drive, hard work effort our admirable human traits they are virtues. But. It's quite another thing to suggest. that. Those who land on top of the society. And reaping. Rewards. Through the market system that that we have. It's quite another thing to say that they deserve the full measure of those winnings. because. They worked so hard. Lots of people work hard. And some people who work hard reap enormous rewards of the way our economy is configured. And lots of people who work hard don't. So I think it's a mistake. To not a mistake to admire people who work hard and strive and heavy initiative. Those are good qualities but I think it's a mistake to say that this is the basis of superior moral desert. You trace in the book something fascinating about the increased use of a particular word and that word is smart. And I found that to be fascinating that over the last number of decades, the frequency of the use of of smart by politicians and magazines as a positive and it's something that denotes worth beyond just you know a latent attribute that someone is born with. Why is that happening and why is that good or bad? It is fascinating thing and I went I did word counts I looked I was thinking how you did that did you have research assistant sup you with that sir? Well, I had a little bit of help but I, also I also, there's it was pretty rigorous. Rigorous accounting of the use of the word smart over years. Yes and I it's now possible given the search engines that are available to actually scan the scan. The Archives of public discourse including? For example presidential. Discourse. And as well as looking at the incidents of the use of terms like smart and dumb in newspapers over time. or in books and it is striking. The during the last four decades which have been decades of deepening inequality and greater emphasis on meritocracy. The use of the term smart. And of the contrast smart versus dumb has skyrocketed. Over the past four decades in general public discourse in political discourse and even in in newspapers as an evaluative, can there lots of the value of categories that we use especially when we're talking about politics in the economy? And public policy. We might say that this or that policy is just rather than unjust. Of the ditch right rather than wrong. That, it serves the common good rather than individual interests. These are explicitly moral normative categories. But increasingly, politicians have been relying on invoking less those explicit normative categories, moral categories, and instead being instead arguing for their policy on the ground that this is a smart policy rather than a dumb one. and. In a way, this reflects a certain kind of technocratic orientation smart rather than dumb. It seems nonpartisan it seems value neutral. It seems just a matter of efficiency. But actually reflects a shift in the public culture. It seems to me take together with other tendencies I document in the book toward valorising the smart, not only smart policies but smart people and denigrating the so-called dumb those who often are referred to. As those who who lacked the kind of credentials that are prized in America meritocratic. Society. You make the point further on this college non college divide that unlike in prior times. In today's US Congress, for example, also true in the UK in their parliament. But in today's, Congress, one hundred percent of senators have a college degree and I, think something like ninety five of House members and you suggest that maybe that's not the greatest thing in the world my question is with respect to other kinds of representation. Whether. It's a black or brown members or women. We like to say we want Congress to look like America and for people to have proportional representation by that. Analysis then should should congress be made up of two-thirds of members without college degrees I think there should certainly be far more than they're currently are I wouldn't say there needs to be an exact proportion but I think it is a dimension of political representation. That is remarkably skewed and we don't even reflect on and of course, it's closely correlated. With representation of people from from working class or modest middle class backgrounds who are largely effectively excluded from a from governance from from Congress from state legislatures, they're only a tiny fraction of members of Congress or parliament in Britain or state legislatures. In the US who come from working class backgrounds I, get your point, but you know in other areas and maybe that we just we don't think. Too highly of the difficulty of being a member of Congress. But I want the pilot of my airliner to have the proper credentials and that's not valorising credential ISM. That's why to make sure and I want my president to be educated. Is it so bad to demand certain kinds of credentials and backgrounds for people who have a lot of authority and power in the country? We certainly want merit. Stood, but that's not equivalent to credentials is we've been discussing them so in principle. we would like the people governing. To be people of good and sound judgment. Aristotle way back in ancient Greece. Spoke of practical wisdom. We want people in this also goes all the way back to aristotle and the Republican tradition people who have civic virtue, which means they identify with and care about people from all walks of life in their society they care about the common good. So. These are the qualities have outsmart that well, it depends how we define smart if smart means technocratic. Expertise. Will we do want technocratic expertise in certain domains, but it has always to be tethered to moral judgment and to the ability to to exercise good judgement about common good and so I think it's a mistake. So, here's another way of putting it maybe even more starkly create. Ideally, we should be governed by the best. So you could say that's a ringing affirmation of Merit in governing and the brightest, and well, this station this exactly the distinction that I. Wanted to in that book, you mentioned that book in your book as well. Right? The best and the brightest David. Halberstam, pointed out. that. LBJ. It came to Sam Rayburn his mentor. From Texas and described brilliant background. Of all these people in the Kennedy Cabinet and Sam Rayburn said to him well, they may. All may be off Allah smart as you say Lyndon but I feel a little bit better if a few of them had run for sheriff. Ravens skeptical comment was pointing to the importance of people who are connected to ordinary citizens in their predicaments and who cultivate the kind of judgement that comes to mixing it up with people from various walks of life, and it was a prescient observation because the best and the brightest in Halberstam's. Ironic book title. Got In to the folly. The at now, that was their achievement. And as I pointed out in the book. The best and the brightest the economists in this case, many of them with a Wall Street experience during the Obama years. Well I in the Clinton and then in the Obama years. Were among those who favored the deregulation. Of the Financial Industry Getting rid of glass. Steagle. DECIDING NOT TO BAN OR RESTRAIN DERIVATIVES All of those high-powered financial engineering techniques. And who went win it? All went wrong in the two thousand eight. Financial. Crisis. Encouraged Wall Street friendly. Out The did very little to help people who actually lost their homes. and. The did not hold those who had brought about the crisis two democratic account. These were the best and the brightest among the economists assembled by. Democratic as well as Republican administrations during the two thousand late nineties in two thousand. And so they created their own own disaster, a not as lethal as the Vietnam War. But in a way, it cast a cloud over the promise of the Obama presidency generated resentment way the the bailout was handled and actually I think it can be argued paved the way to Donald Trump. So, p people who have technocratic expertise. But who lack human judgment and experience. Practical Wisdom. Sense of history. And they've gotten us if you if you just look back at the last. Half. Century they've gotten us into some pretty dangerous political circumstance. One of the most fascinating parts of the book that made me think about certain things differently is is related to what you just said and that is. I'm in the Group of folks. Who have been concerned that there's an attack on expertise you get that in lots of different areas, climate change and other issues as well and certainly in during the time of this pandemic and we say things like you know believe in science and science should. But you make the point and I won't make it as well as you just introduce it. I want to hear more of what you have to say about it. The sort of persistent day after day banging the drum of people who say Nah No. The only people who have the ability to deal with the issue and who should be listened to our people with very very deep you might say technocratic. Expertise that that has an off putting effect. On, lots and lots of folks who used to believe and we're told it was okay to believe that if you're a person of common sense and good judgment in America whether you're credentialed or not you can follow the debates of the day. You can follow the issues of the day and you can participate in the debate at home or at the water cooler or with your neighbors or whatever, and this emphasis on technical knowledge, which I've always thought to be one hundred percent in good thing has alienated those folks disenfranchise them. And made them now deeply suspicious of the thing that you think is good expertise right I. think that's exactly right now let me say at the outset. Crete. I believe in in I, trust FAUCI not trout, but but the reason. I trust FAUCI is partly it's not because he's smart in some abstract intellect sense or in some in terms of high Q.. Or a cognitive superiority, he has the relevant knowledge medical and public health knowledge about. Infectious Diseases. And he's honest. So he brings together a kind of technical expertise of the relevant desperately relevant kind with a human quality. To do with judgment and trustworthiness honesty. That shows how the best sources of political judgment intermingle technical knowledge or scientific knowledge in this case, medical knowledge with civic virtues honesty trustworthiness. In fact, when some in the trump administration including some public health experts other than FAUCI. were relying solely on models quantitative models that they were interpreting overly optimistically. FAUCI. According to reporting. He was skeptical of these models he understood them. Of course, he was skeptical and he was actually on the phone every evening calling people in various cities to ask what they were seeing on the ground. The equivalent I suppose in a way going back to help her stems. LBJ's Hem. Rayburn store. He he was sort of. Talking to the sheriff's talking to the people on the ground about what actually was playing out in these communities. So he has a what we admire about foxy and I take this because the pandemic and in the debate about science is is right before us. He combines. Knowledge Medical. Knowledge with. Kind of honesty untrustworthiness that our moral and political. Virtues. And so I think it's important not to lose sight of that. But to to go back to the other aspect of of your point about this I, think that critics of trump. And I'm certainly among them make a mistake. Simply to say, we must follow the science. When Joe Biden says is asked you know, should we close down the economy or keep it open and he says I'll just decide based on what the science tells me. I think that's not a great answer. Now. He could say. Any judgment about that, it's a fateful judgment. It has to be informed by the best medical in public health knowledge we have. Recognizing that public health and medical experts disagree. So we have to hear out those disagreements and exercise some judgment. About how to weigh their accounts? But these are political judgments and so I think that some progressives are because of trump's obvious hostility and refusal to accept even the most basic advice from medical in public health experts, there's a tendency. For Democrats and progressive to say, well, the problem here is he's against science and we're for it and we will be guided by science. I think overstates it in a way that misses the importance of political judgment and trustworthiness and honesty. I think there's some truth in that, but it seems to me that people like Joe, Biden, others as you mentioned. Are using that rhetoric because it's politically useful because they have as an adversary someone who so seems to disdain expertise in science but that people like Biden do appreciate that they're the leaders and they're not using that rhetoric abdicate this look in the same way that if you think about the Cuban missile crisis in retrospect and maybe even at the time we wanted a president. Who would say I will listen to the generals and I will take them their views into account, the military leaders but I'm the president. Now make the call. We don't WanNA leader which I think part of your point who will say I'll do whatever the scientists say I'll do whatever the general say exactly there's a reason why you have the leader. Why the generals. It's the reason why the scientists does not the president and I think that the rhetorical flourish is there now and maybe as being taken extreme because of who the adversary in the White House is yes I think that's right and we see in the debate over masks. I mean there are some who say well, this is just the irrational wearing a mask is what's medically and scientifically mandated, and how can anybody possibly against wearing a mask The debate about masks has become a kind of a moment in the culture wars precisely because over roughly four decades, a great many people have become resentful of. Credential meritocratic elite who have condescended to them who have said in a will will figure this out. It's a matter of of technical expertise. Especially vis-a-vis the economy because remember this whole condition this divide between winners and losers. The growing up gap in the deepening inequality arose when experts assured US economic experts assured us that deregulating the financial industry. And pursuing the neo-liberal version of globalisation the market driven version of globalization may create some temporary job losses imbalances, but the overall gained to GDP will be significant enough so that the winners can compensate the losers that was the the premise of all of this. And that turned out not to happen. It didn't happen and instead the median. Wage Working People. Was Stagnant. For. Forty Fifty Years So it's not surprising that there's a backlash against the confidence smug assurances of credentialed elites that trust us where the experts you may think that the manufacturing tons of the Midwest. Are being hollowed out in jobs are being lost Stagnant. But it's all part of a bigger economic picture that we have fully in mind and furthermore the financial it's as financialisation of economy will also help generate a kind of economic growth in the end that everyone will benefit. Well, that wasn't true and people know that and and so Dan other example there other examples of that. Awesome. The part of the problem is that these experts or technocrats whoever they are, they happen to be among other things, people and this extreme valorization of of experts and technical ability insofar as it starts to border on a belief in their infallibility. Allows critics to weaponize every single mistake that they make. You mentioned the pandemic. I'm old enough to remember. The phrase goes that they were experts said, don't wear a mask. I get where people are coming from. When you know we said listen to the experts let the science govern will one point the experts said don't wear a mask, and now they're saying you must were a mask and they're laughing at you and mocking you if you question that directive now I wear a mask everyone in my family does because I think the the weight of evidence is in favor of wearing a mask but I get I mean it's maybe a small example of lots of other larger things like the economy you're talking about if you over emphasize the experts. They, they can take on an arrogance and their supporters can take arrogance on their behalf. That causes any time they make an error. It causes people to just walk away altogether. So it counterproductive the mask chest to to follow up on this point, which is a really important one pre the fact that the experts Priscilla's one thing about masks and now tell us another. Is an example of how we need to bring judgment to Bear Lake judgment to bear on the advice of experts but more than that. Let's just take as given the importance of wearing a mask. When it comes to deciding how to balance risks to oneself into public health against other aims. That involves certain judgments about the public health, but it also involves political judgments and choices when son wanted to go out wearing a mask. And participate in black lives matter marches. He knew that he was undertaking certain risk because these were not socially distanced marches they couldn't be. And yet he was you know wearing a mask and exercising precautions. He made a judgment we had some discussion in the family, but the march, the cause was important enough so that in balancing the various risks taking into account medical judgment, political judgment civic, commitment. He made a choice to march even though it meant he then isolated himself for fourteen days from us because he knew he had not socially distanced but these are choice. These are civic choices. These are moral choices eats our our political judgments that intermingle with enter and overlap with questions of expertise, but it can't be decided by science. There's so many things that are fascinating about the book and your observations. But one in particular is we're running out of time is the particular architecture. and embrace of meritocracy in this country. Lead you to observe that it may be helps to cause. A willingness to accept inequality not just on the part of the people who have but on the part of the people who don't have. Explain what you mean by that what you think about that. Well what's fascinating is how the idea that people deserve where they land. Whether it's on the top or on the bottom has so entered into our public culture. that. Not only has it led the successful credentialed. To look down on those who haven't flourished. But it has also been absorbed to some extent. By those who struggle. In the New Economy. And who may partly believe they're struggling because the system is unfair. They haven't really had an equal chance the system is rigged. That's one way of interpreting ones struggles. But. This may be intermingled with seems to be intermingled with the sense that among some of those who struggled that well, maybe I don't have the talent. Maybe I haven't worked as hard to deserve the success that others have and that's deeply demoralizing, and it's a demoralizing thought that American society can induce, and so that's where the Hubris of the successful. Goes along with a certain gnawing sense of doubt even humiliation among those who who struggle in this economy because if they to believe. That, you can make it if you try. Then there's the tendency to to believe that if they don't rise, they have no one to blame but themselves and this is a message. This is a hard message that America critics aside, he even a perfect meritocratic society delivers to those. Who Don't rise who don't flourish who struggled to make ends meet and demoralizing. And we we should be aware of it because we live at a time when politics aides were stunned shocked by the triumph by the election of trump in the US. By the by the Brexit vote in Britain. But WHAT THEY MISSED Was the growing. Anger and resentment. Of those who haven't won out in America critic society. And I don't think progressive politics will be able to renew itself. And to recover from this backlash. Unless progressives begin to address the inequalities and. The social, the attitudes toward success that have. Way Legitimated those inequalities it's not just policy. It's rhetoric to right? Yeah. Rhetoric and the way we understand ourselves and who deserves what and why and what we owe. To our fellow citizens including those who who are less fortunate than we. You ender book with among other things a reference to Hank Aaron. One of the greatest hitters in baseball history and you quote from his biographer Howard Brian who writes quote hitting it could be argued. Represented the first gotTa crecy enhance Aaron's life. And some people talk about sports this way, right? It's it's pure meritocracy because the ball leader goes over the fence or doesn't go over the fence it just it is what it is based on your your ability. And you say look, but this is a mistake quote. The moral of Henry Aaron story is not that we should love Mary talk recy-. But that we should despise a system of racial injustice that can only be escaped by hitting home runs. Equality of opportunity is a morally necessary corrective to injustice, but it is a remedial principle, not an adequate ideal for a good society. Would you mean by that? That we do need. Equality of opportunity so that no one is held back. By prejudice or disadvantage of conditions of birth. But that isn't enough to make for a just society. What makes for society is one what makes a good society? Creed is creating circumstances where we really say and believe. That, we are all in this together. Where we recognize our mutual dependence where we ask ourselves as an active part of our political debate. What do we owe one another as citizens And if we think that those questions are answered or put to rest simply by saying, well, everyone had an equal chance everyone headed got to the same starting point. And then had a chance to run the race to clamor up the rungs of the ladder. That's all justice requires. Were missing something important. We're we're missing the whole idea of the common. Good. Of a sense of that even those of us who succeed should be able to look upon. Everyone in our society including the less fortunate and recognize there. But for the luck of the draw. The grace of God. Are they exited the fortune go by? And that sentiment. An appreciation of the role of luck in life. Can. Prompt a certain humility. And humility it seems to me is the civic virtue we need now. And that a going meritocratic society militates against that kind of humility. Can Point US beyond the tyranny of Merit. Toward a less rancorous, more generous public life. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your service. Thank you for your participation in the discussion, the book, the tyranny of Merit. What's become of the common good is excellent and thoughtful out quote from myself. Advocating for the book, you will catch yourself wondering again, and again, why have I never thought of it that way and I believe this to be true also, no good faith reader will come away from this book unchanged. It made me think about things in many different ways that I had not expected and I think it's it's a very fruitful contribution to the discussion. Professor. Thank you again. Thank you for this conversation and for your very generous words about the book and for really, helping, bring. These questions and this debate to public attention. It really is such a pleasure and an honor to be with you. My conversation with Michael Sale continues for members of the cafe inside or community in this special bonus Sandal, and I discussed the role of Meritas crecy in the covid nineteen pandemic and how. To use their fancy maters as excuses for bad behavior. Try out the membership free for two weeks cafe dot com slash inside you'll get access to the full archive of exclusive content including the weekly podcast I co host with Milligram Cyberspace podcast with John Carlin the United Security podcast co hosted by Lisa Monaco can Weinstein Audio Essays Ellie Hoenig and me and more. Again. That's cafe dot com slash insider. So I want to close the show this week by giving you all an update on a project I started with my two teenage sons at the beginning of August. May recall that as we were getting into the late part of the summer and thinking about the upcoming election, I made a proposal to my boys seventeen and fifteen that. Maybe we could make some recommendations of WHO to support in the house especially in battleground districts to increase the majority of Democrats in the House, my sons on their own independent thinkers happened to also be Democrats. And the idea would be that the boys on their own research every day in August would recommend that I tweet about a particular candidate and I would also put up five hundred dollars of my own money in donation and encourage people to give whatever they can, or at least follow the candidate learn more about the candidate or if they lived in the district to support the candidate. Midway through the month I, suggested to the boys that maybe they create a website so that people would be able to see who all their picks were. They did they created a website that you can find at housework twenty, twenty dot org. They even created mission statement in which they write quote as we're sure you all know by now our dad likes to tweet a lot so much so that people often miss our housework twenty twenty endorsements in the mix of the rest of his feed this website houses, all of our house were candidates under one roof so you can find donate to any of them. So everyday August, around dinnertime a little bit before dinnertime the boys and I would huddle they would make a proposal for a candidate to support. I would ask them a bunch of questions about the candidate I would ask questions about the opponent, and if they were making a claim in support of the candidate or in opposition to the opponent would ask for proof sometimes, I would look articles and other things that they had relied upon as they announced in their mission statement the criteria they relied upon to pick candidates were these quote we made our choices based on competitiveness of the race, the merit of the Democratic candidate, the fitness of the Republican candidate and the importance of the seat in quote. And I will say that overall the thirty one days, there are pretty pragmatic. They didn't pick longshots and didn't picture things. They pick people who they thought a little bit more money in the race could move the needle. What was the tally over the thirty one days they selected twenty two women versus nine men seventeen were challengers nine were running for open seats, five incumbents, and the candidates they chose came from twenty different states. As you may have seen once in a while a heavy hitter, notice the boys work. On one occasion when they recommended Wendy Davis who is running to flip a seed in Texas guess who noticed Senator Ted Cruz to respond to the tweet with a reference to the name of the US attorney character in the television show billions, crews, tweeted chuck roads trying to mess with Texas. They thought that was kind of funny. As. We started to near the end of August we got a lot of input suggesting that we also pay some attention. The boys pay some attention to Senate races as well. So we discussed it and even though it was a lot of work over the course of August, we decided that we would extend Hashtag Housework Twenty twenty to the Senate has special Senate addition for the first seven days of September, and so through Labor Day the boy sat down again every day and made a recommendation for who people might support in battleground Senate races. So what was the impact of our little family project on the races that they supported? We'll talk to tell some candidates actually got in touch and said, it was very helpful thousands and thousands of dollars were raised. Awareness was raised attention was paid to those races. It may not have been paid before in certain areas gives my twitter following all all because. So many people gave small amounts of money in alignment with the boys recommended and I could see their responses on twitter as the boys could also I think we likely raised altogether in all thirty eight races that were recommended a few hundred, thousand dollars, which is not bad for just sending out a few tweets. What was the impact of the project on the boys while you'll have to ask them but at least I think it was educational for them and I think they learn more things than they expected to not just had to research candidates not just about what polling means but also how difficult it is to run a campaign and to compete in the campaign and even though the project was focused just for sake of ease on donating money to candidates. I think they have understood actually how terrible it is that money occupy such a primary role in who gets elected and who doesn't, and whether incumbents have an advantage whether they don't maybe that's the reason they recommended so many challenges to support. So even though the project was centered around helping candidates many of them underdogs financially I think really made an impression on my son's that so much money was required. And maybe there's a better way to elect people in this country than to have folks have to grovel for money in cash to compete in race after race after race. What was the impact of the family project on me while a couple of things one and this is the only negative from the whole thirty, eight day enterprise. It turns out that when you donate money on act blue your email and I think in some cases, even your home address are released to the campaign. So I am now awash in spam and email from thirty eight campaigns. So. cluttered. My inbox a bit, and also our actual physical pillbox is receiving a lot more incoming than it has before. The more importantly, the impact it had on me was I. I got to spend a lot more time with my boys. They were kind of required to spend an hour or two every day with me for thirty eight days which I enjoyed even though we were talking about substance. And then more broadly, it really reaffirmed my hope that change can be made by young people. I think more than ever before young people are focused. Young people are excited about making change. Young people are spending the time in the energy and the work to learn what the issues are. Young people are at the forefront of protests around this country not just my boys but hundreds of thousands, millions of young people in high school and college in the early twenties are sick and tired of the mess that some of US Open have made of the world. I think that today's young people are more sophisticated than we think I think they're more smart more savvy at the same time more idealistic and also more pragmatic than we may think. And that gives me a lot of hope to. One final point when I sent that tweet with the Hash Tag Housework Twenty twenty made clear I wasn't talking about chores but I was talking about the House of Representatives. Some people responded saying, well, you know housework actual housework chores or good too. So rest assured my poise do that also and they will continue and we're gonNA find other ways to try to promote voting in voter turnout and access to the ballot as a family and as individuals and hopefully as a community. If you're curious to learn more about the project, you can go to housework twenty, twenty dot org. Well, that's it for this episode of stay tuned. Thanks again to my guest. Michael Sandel. If you like what we do rate and review the show on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen every positive review help new listeners find the show. Send me your questions about news politics injustice tweet them to me at Pre Perot with the HASHTAG ask pre. Or you can call and leave me a message six. Two, four, seven, seven, three, eight. Six six, nine, two, four, preet or you can send an email to stay tuned cafe dot com. Stay tuned is presented by cafe. The executive producer is tomorrow supper. The senior producer is Adam Waller the senior audio producer is David Tattoo Shore, and the cafe team is Matthew Billy that Wienert Sam. David Kerr Lander Noah as ally Jake, Kaplan? Calvin, Lord, Jeff Eisenman, Chris Boylan Sean, Walsh, and Margot Molly. Our Music is by Andrew, DOST I'm pre-. Berrara stay. Tuned. Don't forget avid watch buyers and sellers are on Ebay whether you're looking for new luxury watch or hard to find time peas. Ebay. has you covered with its authenticity guaranteed? 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"It's Monday June twenty second crowd size matters, and it's not life or death. We start here. As cases and hospitalizations swell president trump supporters. He wants fewer over nineteen tests so I said to my slow the testing down, please. Why health experts say lackluster attendance figures are not the biggest from this rally John. Bolton says reelections on the president's mind even when it shouldn't be his the president lying. Yes, he is. And it's not the first time either Martha. Raddatz breaks down her exclusive one on one interview hit is alarming, national security circles and he's resigning no eight. He's fired. What's he doing and none of us? Who Cover Him on? A regular basis saw that coming the bizarre power struggle over one of the country's most powerful law. From ABC News this is start here, Brad Mielke. For weeks, people talked about the height of the covid nineteen pandemic as it were gone time to talk about reopenings, maybe a second wave, but disease doctors will tell you. This virus hasn't gone anywhere. It spread to different states and favorite places they say are were people are in close contact for extended periods of time. This point cases in this country, not just staying the same. They're actively rising in several states to the point where just this week and eleven states set records for how many cases they saw in one day. You might think well. Well, that's because they're testing more people that just catching. Some of the folks with no symptoms will. That was true. You wouldn't have people showing up to the hospital in droves, hospitalizations now increasing in seventeen states, including Florida, a state that opened early I don't feel like people are doing enough of a job of keeping social distancing in keeping mass on their face. Doctors say the key drivers are large gatherings, close contact and not wearing a mask travel can up the risk factor as well since I can make the virus hop into new communities. We Begin. We Begin Narc campaign was this weekend. President trump chose dance first mass rally, thousands of people indoors traveling from all over Oklahoma and beyond with no NASC requirements noticeably empty seats in the arena that he promised would be packed that you might have heard. The arena was not as full as many people expected. That is true. Fire officials told us the arena holden nineteen, thousand, they estimate about six thousand showed up. Critics of the president pounced on this after all president trump himself judges offense by crowd size, but let's clear things up first off. One some people credited this to a blitz of anti-trump votes, reserving seats ahead of time leaving real trump supporters without a ticket. Trust me as someone who's gone. That is not how trump rallies work. If you show up, you get in those RSVP's or just for the campaign to get your phone number. Basically to the trump campaign claimed that protesters blocking supporters from getting in that also does not appear to be true. People just didn't show up and so this whole storyline. You're going to hear people arguing about throughout the day that the president himself might be arguing. Arguing about today, it really seems to be less about Tiktok, trolling violent protests, or even the popularity of president trump than just the people of Tulsa, not wanting to risk getting sick, getting their neighbors sick, which made it even more bizarre when President Trump said he had directed officials, not to conduct more covid, nineteen tests, but fewer. Let's start the week with Rachel Scott. Who is still in Tulsa Oklahoma after a busy last couple of days Rachel? Can we start with the speech itself? The president's first rally speech and months. Did he really order fewer Cova tests. Brad this was a rocky campaign relaunch, and now we're seeing. The president's allies rushed to his defense for the way. It's a disease without question has more names than any disease district. I can name. Comes Lou I can. Nineteen, different versions of. Inside that arena the president downplayed the risk of the corona virus. He called it a racist name. A name that his own team says is racist and he told supporters that he asked to slow down. Testing is the bad part when you test were. You do testing to that extent. You'RE GONNA, more people. You're gonNA find more cases. So I said to my people slow the testing down, please. Come on now. Jake know his tongue in cheek. Kamov Chiba the White House Trade Advisor Peter Navarro suggested that the president was joking, making light of it, he says these rallies are for entertainment to saying that it was a tongue-in-cheek moment, but the president has complained. The number of cases in the country makes the US look bad test they test. We had tested. People don't know what's going on. We got we got another one over here. The. Young Men's ten years old. He's got the SNIFFLES who recovered about fifteen minutes suitcase and that's. That's. He has said this before. He has said that testing is overrated but this is a time when you had thousands of supporters in. They're not wearing masks and the president downplaying the virus will. It was going to say it was not clear. He was joking in the room necessarily, and there has been this larger question Rachel over. How seriously he's advice has taken right. It's the president so where people wearing masks in their Brad. The campaign was passing out mass Many of the president's supporters were not wearing them. It was optional. Arguments back and forth on the match. Just doesn't stay. Mild air over and over again. Don't think you're GONNA. Catch it from. I talked to lots of the president's supporters that were camped out for days. Many of them told me they didn't find it necessary to wear a mask. They did not think that they were at risk of getting the virus, and they said that they were not planning on wearing wine as a family. Do you plan to go with the arena where Bass? No, not? Standing on not yelling. Jesus really words that mean what is interesting here is that before the president even touched down in, Tulsa. The campaign announced that six members of his own advance staff, including two secret service agents had tested positive for Kobe nineteen, and then hours later we saw the president take the stage, and he downplayed the risk of the virus. Hey, beyond the rally itself. There was a lot happening outside. There's been a lot happening even just in Tulsa. The last couple of weeks Friday was June team. That was when the rally was originally. Originally scheduled. What was it like outside the arena on Friday and then of course on Saturday Brad? This was really a tale of two cities, and that has stored Greenwood district. The words black lives matter it's now in bold yellow letters on the street, and as we talk about what the president did say, it's also notable what he did not say, he did not say the names of George Fluey or Briana, Taylor or Ahmad Armory. Their deaths have sparked nationwide protests and the president did not touch on that at all. The less than a mile away just outside of the arena that the president spoke you had his supporters camping out. Painted in Greenway. Right around the mortar. What is your reaction? And I talked to several of them. One man told me that the black lives matter movement is racist. Lack. Interest. All. Live? All your life even matters. He told me that he does not believe people of color or treated differently in this country. And just ten minutes after I talked to that support. Who told that people of Color in this country are not treated any differently. My producer and I were walking back to our hotel and a pickup truck drove by us. They rolled down their windows. And they yelled out calling US stupid black. Expletive a word that I'm not going to repeat on this podcast Brad. The racial divide that is happening in this country. Him was spotlighted here in Tosa as the president made this visit an returned back to the campaign trail. I. Sorry, that happened to you Rachel. Can we look forward I? Mean going forward. How does the campaign see these rallies than in the era of covid nineteen? I mean how the president trump feel about this one, and are we going to see more of them yet? The President Brad is clearly frustrated by these images coming out of his rally empty seats just days before he touched down here in Tulsa. He said it was going to be a packed house. You said not a single seat was going to be empty. The president is Livid. I asked one of his campaign advisers on a scale of one to ten. How mad is the president the answer? I got back a fifteen. All comes as the US approaches another grim milestone. One hundred and twenty thousand lives lost to cove in nineteen, but this is the president that is eager to get back on the campaign trail. The president said he feels like his campaign lost momentum during the pandemic. He's actually going to be heading to Phoenix this week and as A spike cases, the local officials in Phoenix are now requiring every single resident there to wear a mask in public, but it is very unlikely that we are going to see the president where a mask. In a culling that Guzman was telling us, you know when Amazon reopened businesses in mid-may, there were like three hundred covid nineteen cases in Yuma tomorrow. President trump visits. Yuma Arizona be close to five thousand there. Rachel Scott in Tulsa. Thanks for the reporting. Thanks red. Next time on start here. He wouldn't tell Congress, but he told Martha Raddatz John Bolton's exclusive interview coming up. This another show we think you might enjoy is called Ted interview and a toast by Chris Anderson head of Ted. Listen now ideas on how to work through this uncertain time you hear from some of the world's most prominent civil rights leaders on the path to stem racism, including words of wisdom from Dr Bernice King the daughter of Dr. Martin Luther King Junior and the CEO of the King Center. He also learn what corona virus means for the global economy, and how we can create meaningful connections wall apart for more deep dives with great minds. Check out the Ted interview wherever you listen. I knew the threat to this nation was unlike any I'd ever seen in my lifetime one of Joe Biden's primary lines of attack since he launched his campaign. Was this one? That's even more true today we are in the battle for the soul this nation. Says Basic. Case was even if you don't love me, you love America and a vote for Donald. Trump will forever change America. Bow To more of our ABC News exclusive with John Bogel last night in a primetime special. We got to hear from John Bolton himself in his first TV interview since leaving the White House, he gave it to our chief, global affairs, correspondent, Martha Raddatz, and in this exclusive interview staunch conservative who disagrees with Joe? Joe Biden on what two things basically, said the exact same line? Martha's here with us now and Martha. You told US last week. About Bolton's claim that politics creep into everything. The president does and I mean one thing. He does not saying this book that he just hammered home with you. He's how dangerous he thinks. The president is like wow, he said it is a well Brad. He said over and over again in so many different. Different ways that he just did not think Donald. Trump was fit to be president. A lot of people have complained that he has a short attention span. Andy doesn't FOCUS WANNA. Say when it comes to reelection his attention span lose infinite. The it's just too bad. There wasn't more of that. When it came to national security, he did not think he was competent or coherent. In his approach to foreign policy to would say a very wise. Wise person told me or somebody who really knows this stuff told me why doesn't read briefing books doesn't really read anything according to Bolton that he should be reading. The intelligence briefings took place perhaps once or twice a week. Is that unusual? It very unusual issue. Take place every day Bolton is basically aghast. After his time in the White House will end. So can we talk specifics because one of the biggest questions everyone in had was. What did John Bolton know about? Whatever president trump said to the Ukrainian president. Because you know some people said there's a quid pro quo here. It's obvious, but no one ever seemed to hear it. Come out of the president's own mouth, did John Bolton Bolton says he heard it with his own ears in it is that key piece of testimony according to the Democrats? That could have made a difference. What exactly did the president say to you well? He directly linked the provision of that assistance with the investigation. The New York Times reported on that August conversation and the president denied it. tweeting I never told John Bolton that the aid to Ukraine was tied to investigations into Democrats including the Biden's. Is the president lying. Yes, he is, and it's not the first time either. Fulton has said that she would testify. Bastard Bolton testify under oath Bolton has eight. Relevant test, Senate must have him testify as a witness. This was John Bolton's defense about why he didn't testify. He said he thought the hearings were too narrow. They should have looked beyond just Ukraine, of course. How would they do that if they didn't know what was beyond Ukraine examples? He focused on terms like China buying more agricultural products. which she said, does she should? Pink directly would help him in the farm states, but he talks about. Talks taught about China's president. He talks about Putin. He talks about Erta Juan Turkey's president, and especially the most powerful bank in Turkey Hulk Bank so you're saying that if the Democrats have looked at what you call, a broader pattern of behavior, then there might have been a greater chance to persuade that high crimes and misdemeanors had been perpetrated I think the example of Ukraine could well amount to it as for the others they require more investigation. But then like. Bro Why work for the president, then right like if Bolton things, the president is so dangerous. Why did he take this job? Why did we stand by the president side? And then? Why did we keep silent until he could write a book about it, you know those are exactly the kinds of questions. I asked to Brad thanks I ask. I ask again and again. Why stay I cited an example one month before he went to North Korea. He sat on set with me her. The president's confident in his personal relationship with Kim Jong, UN. He's invested a lot of time and trying to develop that relationship and said he thought the president would be very good at sizing up. Kim Jong Un. Do you think he really believes that? Kim Jong On. Love Him I. Don't know any other explanation. I think Kim Jong. UN gets a huge laugh out of this now. He says it was all folly, because the stakes are so high that I thought I could continue to make a contribution. He eventually just couldn't take it anymore. He never wanted the girl to break up with him and I think that explains everything. He broke up with you. If he wants to look at it that way I resigned, but he really did at one point and another point and another point think I hope I can make a difference in finally realized he couldn't. The judge was very powerful statement on classified information and very powerful. Also the fact that the country will get the money anybody. Martha. We talked last week about whether. Bolton's book would be allowed to be sold at all because there was a question of the trump administration's gonNA sue about it. It's got classified information. A federal judge had to rule on it basically in real time. What if you say the the federal judge did not block the book he basically said. Look the horses out of the. The Barn and indeed it is so many people have read it. A jungle talked about it last night, but the federal judge also said there was likely a release of classified information in the book, and the John Bolton could face civil or criminal charges. We don't know whether that's going to happen. And John Bolton does deny that. There's anything classified the in the book. Is this a book criminal disgruntled employees? Look it's it's a book that will stand on its own merits, whatever mind motives are what better time for the American people to look at the character of the people running for president than during presidential campaign. And complicates things right there, because if though civil or criminal charges stick John Bolton would after you wondering whether you'd actually get to keep any money from this book, which comes out tomorrow? Martha Great Interview Thank you great to talk to you Brad. You Heard Martha talk about that case involving Turkey wear as bulletin describes it. The president was telling a foreign leader. He could take care of a legal issue by removing some pesky lawyers. The president said to air one at one point. Look those prosecutors in New York are Obama people wait till I. Get my people in, and then we'll take care of this particular case the southern. District of New York which is famously independent and just this weekend we saw a bockel happened. There is the trump administration, said the prosecutor who leads that division was stepping down. That prosecutor said. No I'm not the bizarre back, and forth at times seeming to bring up some of the same questions that John Bolton was raising. Let's bring an ABC senior investigative reporter Aaron Katersky Aaron. You deal with this US Attorney Jeff Berman all the time. What happened here? This was a dizzying twenty four hours Brad that really brought to the four questions about political influence in the justice system, and it all played out starting late on Friday evening, heading into a summer weekend, and at about nine PM Eastern time. Time out popped a press release from the Justice Department saying that Jeffrey Berman the US attorney for the Southern District of New York was going to be stepping down effective July third and none of us who cover him on a regular basis saw that coming, and then within an hour Berman issued his own statement, saying I have not resigned and have no intention of resigning my position, and that touched off a bit of a crisis. Was this like an issue of you say I'm resigning, not resigning. Resigning like if you want to fire me, fire me or this him. legit saying like I'm not going anywhere. You can't make me Berman in an odd move was appointed by the District Court after president, trump fired the US attorney's when he first took office then Attorney General Jeff Sessions appointed Jeff Berman on a temporary basis and president trump never bothered to fill the job with a nominee confirmed by the Senate on a permanent basis in so after one hundred twenty days, the District Court appointed Berman. Berman and so Berman said the president can't fire him because he was appointed by the court, and there did seem to be some support for that view in the language, the court used back in two thousand eighteen, when it may be appointment that he shall serve until there is a Senate confirmed nominee, US. Attorney Jeffrey Berman arrived at his Manhattan office Saturday for what turned out to be his final shift this morning. I'm just here to do my job well, then fast forward to Saturday and attorney. Attorney General Bar said Well Jeff Berman. You've decided to make spectacle of this, and so I've asked the president to remove you as of today, and he has done so, and after a couple of hours of it limbo, not really knowing what Berman was going to do. He did issue a statement saying that he would leave effective immediately, but Brad is important. Caveat here, because initially when they tried to oust Brennan the administration wanted a favored replacement. They were going to bring in someone that Attorney General, Bill. Bill Bar trusts president trump is nominating Jay Clayton, who served as chairman of the SEC, but has never been a prosecutor now. It's going to be Jeff. Berman's handpicked deputy who ascends to the to the job at least on an interim basis, we will not hesitate to investigate and prosecute those who engage in criminal conduct that draws into question, the integrity of our political process Berman has always known. He's being watched he. He knows he wasn't particularly popular after making some prosecutorial choices that the White House. House didn't like and if they were going to get rid of him, he wanted to make sure that those cases went on uninhibited. How whose decision was that then is that the DOJ kind of the Burmans swimmer? Is that somebody else decided to make that happen well, I think Jeff Berman by waiting this out, and trying to to dictate his own terms, succeeded in forcing the attorney general to put President Trump's name on this decision remember. This is a prosecutor who's investigating president trump's former personal attorney. Attorney my loyalty to Mr. Trump has cost me everything his current personal attorney I should be getting whistleblower protection and other cases that have really rankled the president, intense new scrutiny tonight on President Trump's inauguration, and the more than one hundred million dollars race for it, and obviously the president didn't want to be anywhere that decision to get rid of him, and so when he was asked at the White House, just a short while after attorney, General Bar, said the president had removed Berman, the president said. I'm not involved, and it turns out that the president did in fact sign of piece of paper that forced Berman to step down effective immediately, but not before his own handpicked deputy was named to the job on an interim basis. The House Judiciary Committee is now investigating and invited Berman to testify because I think he has a lot to say about a continuing pattern of chaos, crisis and corruption. Like destroying clearly did the president or Attorney General Barger, they give it clear reason for why he was being fired if he's bad enough to fire why? We still don't know the Justice Department press release made it sound like this was Berman's choice, but Berman said it wasn't in fact bill. Bar Tried to offer Jeff Berman some other job either as head of the civil division which comes with a fancy title, but no real portfolio or the head of the Securities and Exchange Commission and he dug in his heels we. We don't know specifically why the president and Attorney General. Bar Wanted Jeff Berman out, but look at the cases that he has been bringing and critics say this is a president who has trying to exert his control over an office that could really damage his reelection chances yet, and this would be bizarre. Maybe even embarrassing any other jurisdiction. This is not any other jurisdiction, the southern district of New York on the sovereign district of New York because of where it's situated handles Wall Street it handles terrorism cases handles the Mafia. Just a huge decision on whoever runs it right now. We're seeing a big shakeup Aaron Katersky in New York. Thank you. Thank you Brad. It won't last thing we show by talking about how important ally audience is well. Presidential rallies aren't the only event struggling with this I. Don't think it affects the drivers, but I think it definitely affects the fans when you jump up and tear for your driver there any people here in the NASCAR welcome. It's fans back to Talladega today. It's first non-military fan since the damage struck since a weather delay yesterday since this huge decision to ban confederate flags from the grounds. Now does no one is going to big outdoor music festivals. There's this Tiktok meanwhile people trying their own hand at epic Dj sets performing for one or two family members in the backyard. Sometimes they'll set up hundreds and hundreds of action. Figures gummy bears anything to watch them play, but empty seats are just sad. Right so in Barcelona tonight. A famous Opera House will hold a full performance for plants. Yeah, no humans are allowed, but rather than leave empty seats, a couple thousand plants. We'll take in the show. The director says it's kind of this commentary about how this pandemic is played out when human stay home nature seems to take over everywhere else, there are trade-offs when you branch out like this. It leaves out the audience, but the performance will be livestream for the chlorophyll challenged. Performers won't get that rush of energy. There will be more oxygen in the room than ever before. The applause. These plans will all be donated to medical workers. Even the palm fronds would agree. That deserves a hand. And if you didn't catch that music earlier, that is the piece they'll be playing tonight. A Pechiney Quartet called chrysanthemums very clever. These operatives. Hey Big Day at the Supreme Court this morning. Still waiting on some huge rulings, we will have the latest ABC News. Dot Com or the ABC News. Apple expecting those to come down around ten am eastern. Tomorrow

president President trump Brad Mielke Martha Raddatz John Bolton US Tulsa Rachel Scott Martha New York John Bolton ABC News White House Oklahoma Jeffrey Berman Joe Biden Jeff Berman Democrats Senate Donald Ukraine
When Interpreting Power Means Abuse

Trumpcast

34:31 min | 1 year ago

When Interpreting Power Means Abuse

"Trump cast is brought to you by Omaha Steaks steak. I love Omaha Steaks my freezer is currently packed with them. And I even I can make a perfect dinner, and like that classy dinner for my kids, if I use Omaha Steaks right now, Omaha Steaks is giving a limited time, Father's Day gift to Trump cast listeners order now and you'll get, you're not gonna believe this to Philly Magnon to top sirloin to pork. Chops four Omaha Steaks burgers for gourmet jumbo pranks four chicken fried steaks. All beef meatballs, four chicken breasts flora caramel. Apple tartlets a packet of Omaha Steaks signature seasoning. You'll get four extra Omaha steak burgers, free. Can you believe this? I can't even believe I set all that, just go to Omaha Steaks dot com. And type Trump cast. Into the search bar. Don't wait, this offer ends soon. Go to Omaha Steaks dot com. Type Trump cast in the search bar to get the Father's Day steak fix package today. Crohn's two meters. There was no high crime. And there was no misdemeanor. So how do you peach? The opinion says that the constitution requires a process other than the criminal Justice system, do formally accuse a sitting president of wrongdoing politics, patriotism, is the nicest essential threat this initiation to our democracy in terms of our constitution. We cannot afford to allow our president to be above the law. Hello, welcome to Trump cost. I'm Yasha monk. I've been thinking a lot about where we are at advance stage in the Trump presidency. We are two and a half years into his hopefully first and last term in office, and it strikes me that a lot of the most pessimistic predictions have come true, the department of Justice at this point is under pretty firm control of partisan hacks, who make quite clear that they are just interested in being personal lawyers to the President Robert than enforces of the rules constitution of the United States. I am personally somewhat skeptical about the usefulness off impeachment proceedings. Not because I don't think they are warranted given the actions of Donald Trump. But because it is so depressingly evident that they would fail to reach a. Two thirds majority in the Senate because the Republican party has also become a partisan tool off the president of the United States. And so all of the old ways in which our institutions are political parties. The whole machinery of a separation of powers was supposed to protect us from for a and Embiid of president seemed to a remarkable extent to be failing, and it makes it very hard to know what we can do day in day out to protect our democratic rules, institutions and norms. We do have an election coming up in twenty twenty and that is one obvious remedy, but I'm finding myself more and more despairing about the ever ones. All we can do, I think, is to plaster over wound to delay and stench the flood, until we are hopefully able to place somebody with a real commitment to our democratic institutions in void house again. My guest today is Christie Pokka. She has had a very long career in the department of Justice pursuing civil rights cases among others. And she now serves as counsel at protect democracy, wonderful organization trying to protect liberal democracy against four-time populism where I too am involved as a senior adviser, I'll be back with Christie in just a moment. Nothing changes from the Muller report. There was insufficient evidence and therefore, an dre a person is innocent. The case is closed. Thank you. I was actually sticking up for sleepy, Joe Biden, while on foreign soil Kim Jong got him a low IQ idiot and many other things whereas I related the quote of chairman Ken, as much softer low IQ individual who could possibly be upset with that. North Korea fired up sub small who at bins, which disturbs, some of my people and others, but not me. I have confidence that cherry Kim will keep his promise to me, and also smiled when he called swamp. Man. Joe Biden, low IQ individual and worse. Perhaps that sending me a signal. Storms overnight across Ohio and many other states were very dangerous and damaging by team continues to update me with reports from a -mergency managers in the states affected. Listen to your local officials and be resilient. We are with. Republicans cannot allow themselves to Dan lose the Senate seat in the great state of Alabama, this time it will be for six years, not just for June. I have nothing against ROY Moore and unlike many other Republican leaders wanted him to win by. He didn't. And probably won't. Welcome to Trump cuss. Chrissy, thank you so much for having me. What you do at protect moxie is a lot of legal work to try to protect American democracy against four time populace, the look like how do you try to use legal tools in order to stand up to, for example, polygraphs by something like Donald Trump? Well, let me say first that protect amok Crecy does not use solely legal tools to go after the Thawra -tarian abuses by the Trump administration, but we do do a significant amount of legal work, and I think one of the reasons why that is, is the United States is based on a system of laws. We are government of laws. Not of people, our founding document is our constitution. And I think as Americans, we're all brought up to see the law and the courts as the main tool that we use in order to fight back against things. That are unjust. It really is the people's tool to secure our own rights. And when you have a situation like we have now where you have a person who really doesn't seem to believe in that system of laws, one of the first avenues, you would always seek to explore for going after that is to use the courts as a check against his abuses of power frigging, broadly, certain things that coats may be able to stop an of us, where presumably that's much more difficult. One of the striking aspects of Trump administration has just been extent of victimizing of the number groups, some of the humanizing rhetoric those things, which coats countries stop. We have freedom of speech, and we don't want coach to be able to step in and say to an elected political leader. Yukon say that was of things, for example, if the administration claimed, but it has to do something, which according to constitute. It doesn't would hope that quotes could play large roles. How do you think about sort of in what areas to pursue legal redress? And in what area you might need to stand up for the McCray institutions norms in different ways. Well, it certainly true that the, the hardest thing to attack through the courts and maybe it's almost impossibly difficult are, are the things that the president says that are inconsistent with our democratic norms. There might be a way and we've thought through as that, that you could do that in terms of the president's oath of office. He takes an oath to uphold the laws. He takes an oath to uphold our constitution. And when he says certain things that are inconsistent with that those things are also inconsistent with his oath. So, for example, when he calls the press the enemy of the people that might not be something that's actionable on its own. Own under say the first amendment, but it certainly is something that is inconsistent with his oath of office, but I've really found it's actually very interesting to think, in terms of the system that are found IRS set up, you know, how much they thought through at this way, a how much they intended it this way. I'm not sure, but I think that there is a very, there's often a real link between the things that we do legally to keep the president from abusing his power and the people those abuses affect one of the things are founders did seek to do to an extent, obviously not to the greatest extent that we would think of it now, but to an extent they sought to create a liberal democracy, democracy in which the majority rules, but there's respect for minority rights in one of the things that they set. Principally to do that was our system of separation of powers, which they explicitly said in the federals, papers was a system that was meant to keep any one person or institution, the government from getting to powerful and getting into a situation where you have tyranny. And if you look right now, at one of the key ways in which the president is very obviously abusing his power declaring this fake national emergency in order, really to overturn the will of congress on a matter that is within their exclusive authority. He took us through this. What does it? What's happened around Muslims decoration? Why do you think that that's one area in which we might be able to have legal redress in which actually going in filing Lewis who'd may be able hopefully to stop the president? Sure. Let me just first say the people against whom this falls, most heavily is immigrants. Immigrants who are residents legal residents of the United States immigrants who are coming here to seek asylum immigrants who are coming here for whatever reason that is a community that the president is effectively de-legitimizing through this, this abuse of power, but the, the way in which it works is, we have the founder set up a system, our system of separation of powers, whereby it is congress who is given the power to make laws there, the body closest to the people, they are given the power to make laws and they're given the power to make decisions about how to spend money, and there has been a debate back and forth between this president and the congress over how to address the situation at our border how to address migration how many immigrants should come in, and under what circumstances, what should the rules be as we know the president has said from the very beginning, what he wants is a great wall at our border, and congress has not. Seen fit to give him the degree of wall that he wants. He ultimately decided that he could use declaring a national emergency as a way to get around the no he was getting from congress and what you have, right. There is an abuse of power. That is both really overt and also very scary from the standpoint of our ability to maintain our democracy. She's just clarify. There's all kinds of reasons why when might oppose funding a wood on the border and magin most listening to this podcast have many reasons to be opposed to that. But specifically concerned about emergency powers is not this is about policy is not that we have a substantial disagreement with Donald Trump. It's that if you go to build a wall on the border, it is going to cost money, and that money has to be appropriated in some kind of traditional constitutional way by a vote of congress and what Trump is trying to do you. Muzzy declaration is to say actually what's going on? Them voted such an emergency that I should be able to just find the money myself without an active act of congress. And then when congress actually possibility. No, no, no, no. We did not want to do that. He vetoed that Bill so that essentially would potentially allow the president to preemptively spend money in whatever way he wants. And if congress is not able to rebuke him with a two floods majority, he can spend that money. So that actually completely rejig how our system of raising money and spending money works United States. Right. That's exactly right. And I think what the president has done here highlights that very thing that you're talking about, if you were to read the national emergencies act in the way that President Trump has ready here, which is essentially to say he can declare an emergency whenever he wants to whenever he decides that there's a situation that warrants it. That kind of a reading of that law could be used to completely obliterate Congress's power to decide how to spend money and one thing that's really important to understand about what happened here is that previous presidents have used this act to declare emergencies. No previous president has ever done. So in a situation where congress explicitly made a decision about how to act on a certain type of crisis if you will. And then the president decided to overturn that, that has never happened before. So what would have happened before, for example, might be that there's a big storm hurricane or something like that destroys a lot of property, and the president puts through emergency declaration to help fund some of emergency response, and perhaps, to pay for some of the property damage. But what you're saying different is like one perhaps vis moldable, but of emergency is clear. It's natural disaster. And the response to it something more straightforward than a building crisis, at the border, the to what you're saying is invoked, it was never a case of Atra, President, Try to get money from congress and congress at. No. And then it's oh you know what has an emergency? That's exactly right. Previous situations where like I mean there have been many, but some key ones that you could think of when when President Obama was an office. There was a flu epidemic. That went through the United States. The president at that time used the national emergencies act to dedicate funds in order to make sure that people across the country could get back scenes President Bush used the national emergencies act after the terrorist attacks of September eleventh, in neither of those cases, had congress made a specific decision about how to spend money on those crises and then the president came in and said, that's not how I want to do it. I'm going to declare an emergency to do it. Some other way they use the act for the purpose that it was intended. In here. What you have is just a straight up. Thawra -tarian power grab by Donald Trump. So what we have here is a fury of a case, what you're saying is that we do want to have emergency powers under certain restricted circumstances. VM ministration is liberty MS reading that in order to justify something which could infuriate able president to bypass congress on most spending decisions. So this is a big constitutional problem. We want to step in what does that mean? What kind of next step do you take? So the next step that you take the step that we took was to file a lawsuit that says this is an abuse of the president's authority under both this particular statute. And also our constitution, then who do you soon front of witch court? What does that look like on quickly? So we sued the employees of the president who are charged with carrying out his orders. So in effect, we sued the government we see the government through its agents. The secretary of Defense Secretary of homeland security, all of the people who would be charged with carrying out what we are doing. Is this unlawful order the people on whose behalf? We are suing our clients are L, Paso county, Texas, which is, of course, one of the largest cities on our border, and our, our other clients are the border network for human rights, which is a human rights organization advocates on behalf of immigrant families who live along the border, and a third really important component of our lawsuit and really of this whole issue is, it's, it's not a partisan appear Lee partisan thing, the way you would normally think of it. It's not one of those things that, well, you know, President Trump is a Republican and some democrat organization has filed a lawsuit against him what we have. Here is a lawsuit where our partners are former high ranking officials in. Previous Republican administrations one of our partners is Stuart Gerson, who is a former high ranking Republican official in the department of Justice a well known conservative legal thinker. We've also partnered with the Niskanen center, which is a center, right organization, and the reason why we have this cross section of Republicans, and Democrats, working together on this case is because it truly is an issue about our constitution, and about the separation of powers that should apply regardless of who's in charge, a wide swath of people in this country have come together to say this really is an unacceptable abuse of power in an NA democracy. We have to band together to fight against that view. Muslims politics seems like relatively straightforward power grab. What about some creative attempts to try and use blue in order to get a purchase on his attack? On independence to Sion's on van room minorities on the free press. I understand that. You've teamed up with penna free speech organization that helps protect writers who are at risk to SUV administration around some of its attacks on the free press. What is the feary of that case, how might be used in order to stand up the free press in that way? So the theory of that case is, and we've seen this from really day, one of this president's campaign on his administration. He does not accept the notion that our first amendment, protects and enshrines in our constitution that we have freedom of speech in this country, and that we have freedom of the press in this country, and that those exist, precisely for the purpose of allowing people to criticize and dissent, against their government. That is one of the most fundamental components. Of a democracy. This president doesn't accept that we have seen from the very beginning of his time in office him engaging in a pattern of using the tools of his office, and the agencies that he oversees, chew direct them to punish members of the media who criticized him or who say things that he doesn't like. So, for example, he threatened before he became president and after he assumed the office to intervene in the merger between CNN's parent company, Time Warner an AT and T and the reason for that is his animus, toward CNN, which he has clearly expressed he threatened to intervene in the merger. And in fact, the Justice department that he oversees filed a lawsuit to stop that merger even though the Justice department has not intervened in that particular type of merger in more than forty years. Similarly, he his, he dislikes the Washington Post he feels that they don't cover him fairly. He criticizes them calls them fake news in the enemy of the people frequently. And he uses that with criticism of the Washington Post's owner Jeff Bezos, and he has repeatedly threatened in conjunction with his statements of animosity toward the Washington Post to raise postal rates on Amazon, and, and these which is owned by Jeff visas and a few months ago, he actually directed the postmaster general to do that. So, so pen America, as you identified as an organization of writers journalists, that's whose mission is to celebrate freedom of expression. They decided along with us, and our co-counsel that this pattern of conduct violates the first amendment. The president has has engaged in a scheme to. Threaten retaliation against the media and create this credible risk of threat that hangs over the heads of any journalist or reporter who would seek to criticize him. And the theory of our case is the first amendment, simply does not allow that in a country where you have a first amendment, protecting freedom of speech. You cannot allow a situation where any journalists who seeks to criticize the president has to reasonably think to themselves that they might be retaliated against by the government if we do that. And what specific remedy, are you hoping for Hugh, because remedy Muzzy Powell seems obvious is for quotas step in into say, no, actually miss president allowed to spend his money on the wall? And this way, unless you have an act of congress overdosing, or whatever it is, what exactly would remedy in vis case Canaccord oughta Donald Trump and along to make frets on Twitter. What would viz look like a court can't order the president to stop talking. But what it can do is the court has the ability. Really the fundamental ability. This was one of the first supreme court cases, that was ever decided the court has the ability to say what the law is, and that's actually a very important power in our system of separation of powers. So one thing that the court can do here and what it actually did in the Twitter case that was filed in, in the southern district of New York, a few months ago is the court can declare that the president of the United States, violates the first amendment when he threatens government retaliation against speech. So not just simply when he says, something that is obnoxious or nefarious, or that violates his oath, not just the things that he says, generally, but when he says, things that are credible threats of retaliation, or when he does things that constitute directing government agencies to retaliate against the press that violates the first amendment, that is in constitutional court could simply say. That. And by doing so really create a very powerful tool that the people the president orders to carry out his unlawful commands have in their back pocket as a way of resisting doing that. We've seen in recent reporting that the president is getting more and more overt in ordering his employees to violate the law, and it seems as though some of them have been able to stand up and resist him. But as a former civil servant myself, I can tell you that a declaration from a court saying that this type this type of directive is unconstitutional would be a very powerful tool in the hands of people who are trying to uphold their own oaths, not to carry out unlawful orders who told me about that capacity will you a civil servant and how if you had seen a decision by a federal district code saying something that presidents was do is illegal might have impacted. You'll be. Behavior, the behavior of your colleagues around you. So thankfully in the nineteen years that I was a civil servant, no one ever gave me an order, that I believe it would violate the constitution. But my position was I was an attorney in the department of Justice for nineteen years. I started as a line attorney in the civil division. I went over to the civil rights division, and became a prosecutor prosecuting police misconduct cases and hate crimes cases. And then by the end of my time there, for about the last seven years, I was actually a supervisor at my, my title was deputy chief. But in the entire time that I was in the department and I feel that my colleagues in the civil service very much felt the same way we always understood that we were in a privileged position where we had the opportunity to take an oath to uphold our constitution and our laws and. That is a very weighty thing for any civil servant. It's particularly so I think for those of us who had the honor to work in the department of Justice, and we were always on guard to protect the constitution. It was our job to serve whatever administration was in charge. And I worked in four different ones, and it was never our role to resist them in carrying out the agenda that the people elected them to carry out, but it was always our duty to make sure that the law was always being followed, and that we were doing things based on what the law said and not what while what politics said, and we all would talk amongst ourselves about what it would be like if we ever actually received an order from someone to do something that we felt was unlawful, and we all talked about how hard it would be to have to stand up and resist that even by if necessary resigning from our positions, which affects our livelihood. Woods. Shoot students has situation so under one hand you responsible to the leadership of institution and supposed to act, according to the will Rahva than your own women, as pot of how Rockwall is democratically accountable and responsive. But on the other hand, you have taken an oath to uphold the constitution and the ov- is not I will follow whatever the president does view of you may know it of a hot. I don't to act in coordination constitution in everything you do. So I suppose us to pose to refuse in those circumstances to follow an order that, you know, to be legal. So is importance of having a quote declared that something illegal that you don't have to second guess, but it's not just you saying, hey, in my opinion, visits unconstitutional and venue box can say, well, who are you to have an opinion because, now you can say what they quoting to judge. So, and so this unconstitutional, so therefore, it would bite it off to follow this. I think you've got it. Exactly. Right. I think any time you can walk into someone who you feel as. Telling you to do something wrong, not just with your own opinion, that it's wrong. But with a piece of paper from a court that says this specific thing that you're telling me to do violates the constitution. I think that is a hugely powerful tool for the people who are in the role of civil servant. And that's why I think it's so important that the courts make sure that they don't take a step back from overseeing, what this administration is doing. Now really, is the time if ever, there was a time for the courts to be very mindful of their duty to say what the law is because it is important for the other people in our constitutional system to be able to act in the way that they're supposed to act to have that endorsement from our courts about what is and isn't legal. I'm struck by kind of power docs, in what we've been talking about, which is that, you know, I just traveled through Poland, and Hungary and countries like that. And nobody that talks about suing the government because frankly not worth it. The government has moved, especially in Hungary so quickly to dominate the courts to have the enormous in all of us decisions, and is so much conformity, among the state Brock recy-, but a lot of things which has been talking about just wouldn't happen. You can sue the government for of a court except lawsuit, and then they'll dismiss it even if it should be right on the merits. I don't think that the that many civil servants left loss in Hungary. At least if you will say, oh, hang on a second visit unconstitutional. Perhaps, I shouldn't do it. I should resign. The most important positions at least have been filled with political lawless now in the United States, an assistant where the courts are independent, we still have the ability to achieve change through some of those lawsuits, but as a result, it can be. Easy for quietest to say, well, all of these concerns are ridiculous. Clearly, we have a free press clearly, we have independent courts so why you all even worried. So it seems like earning way to defend against a populist expanding. His power is at the early stages when coats asked independent when the is free press civil servants still try to uphold the constitutional duty perverts up precise. Eva moments when it's tempting to say, well, look was independent caused by the free press. Why are you even worried? I think that's right. And I think especially since I have been with protect democracy, and we've had the benefit of so many great advisers, who study authoritarianism around the world, and who studied the history of the rise of authoritarianism in Europe and its reemergence now, it's, it's important to understand that the United States. Does not exist in a vacuum outside of all of these other forces, I was struck when I read on tier any by Timothy Snyder, that one of the things that he noted in his preface is, it's really important to understand that we may think America is special, but we are not immune from any of the things that has happened in these other places that were so disastrous. But I think what you say is also still very true that is that we do have this robust legal system that not only is robust on its own terms. But that, that Americans have internalized understand as a tool that we as citizens have in order to stand up against the government, when we think it's doing something wrong that we don't just have to acquiesce in a descent of our. Democracy into authorities. But I think the key thing to understand in linking. Those two things is first of all to be grateful that citizens have acted to make our courts as strong as they are into achieve the rights through those courts that they have everything that we've got in this country proceeds from our founding principles. But we have the rights that we have because citizens went out and said, you know what that principle should apply to me the same way that it applied to the wealthy. White men who founded this country. That's how we got cases like Brown versus board of education and expanded the rights that we have in this country. The voting rights cases, all of those things. We need to be grateful that we have these courts, but we also need to be mindful that we could lose our rights at any time, and we need to take we need to exercise the benefit of the system that we do have. And the strengths that it does still maintain that do, I think distinguish us from the European countries that you're talking about, and make sure that now more than ever we both use those institutions, and we also safeguard them from the efforts that this president is making to erode and politicize them Chrissy. Thank you so much Trump cost. Thank you for having me. That's all show for today. Say Hello to us on Twitter and let us know what you think I'm at your among why. H underscore. M. O U N. And you can find the show at real Trump before you go. I have one more quest sign up for state, plus it's five dollars and it gets you. Com slash Trump. I'll show today was produced by Aplin Johnny. Dean medico is of Donald J Trump find him in at Johnny. J H and Y. Twenty three. Again, listening to Trump.

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Friday Night Backfire

Skullduggery

1:05:42 hr | 7 months ago

Friday Night Backfire

"A Michael ISIKOFF chief investigative correspondent for Yahoo News and I'm Dan Kleinman editor in chief of Yahoo News and a quick reminder that you can follow us at skulduggery Pod, and by the way if you've got any questions, thoughts ideas. You WANNA share. tweet right out us now. Let's get on with the show. It was quickly called a Friday night massacre, a completely unexpected announcement by Attorney General William Bar that Jeffrey Berman. Arguably the single most powerful federal prosecutor in the country had decided to step down as US attorney in the southern district of New York. Only. Berman quickly made clear he hadn't resigned at all and had no intention of doing so until the next day when president trump at bars, request fired him. What explains this bizarre chain of events, and does it have anything to do with the sensitive cases? Berman had been overseeing of direct interest to president trump including a widely publicized probe into the overseas dealings of the president's personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani will discuss with the former prosecutor in the same office, and we'll talk to a proud and unabashed never-trumper Florida. Republican Strategist Rick Wilson on this episode of skulduggery. Because, people have gotta know whether or not their president's while I'm not a crook I, told the American. People I did not trade arms for my heart to my best intentions. Still tell me that's true, but the facts and the evidence tell me it is not I did not have sexual relations with that one, there will be no lies. We will honor the American people with the Truth and nothing else. I'm Mike, Eliza chief investigative correspondent for Yahoo News and I'm Dan Kleinman editor in chief of Yahoo. News so bizarre is the only word I can think of to explain what was happening at the Justice Department over the weekend, clearly the idea of getting rid of the US attorney in the southern district of New York with only. Six months left. Seven months left in. The administration seemed inexplicable. You put that on top of all these sensitive cases that Berman had going in the southern district, and it certainly seemed suspicious. We don't really know, but surely it did not do a lot to instill already sinking confidence in the Justice Department I. Don't get it, you know we as we've said on this podcast many times we covered bill bar. Bar closely when he was deputy attorney general than when he was Attorney General back in the early nineties, he always struck me as one of the smartest lawyers that I ever encountered at the Justice Department, but not only that he was also a deft political operator, and he did not make these kinds of mistakes. In fact to the contrary, he was really good about making sure that he had the. The kinds of relationships on Capitol Hill for example that would protect him. He was pretty tough guy, but he was deferential when he needed to be because he knew he needed to keep political capital to do the things he wanted to do. He had a very close relationship at the time with Joe. Biden who is the chairman of the Senate, Judiciary Committee and this time around all he does is. Is Squander political capital by making what seemed to be kind of boneheaded political mistakes, and it's one after the other. It's not just what he's doing. It is how he's doing these things. It's just ham handed and now maybe to give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe it has something to do with working for Donald. Trump and I was just gonNA. Say I don't know if you caught his. Interview over the weekend with Maria Wilma on Fox business and It's Kinda covered the map. Although she didn't trill down on this series of events at all, but she did ask them. How often do you talk to the president and he laughed in. Indelible chuckle that he has and said pretty regularly, so it's pretty hard to imagine that all of these moves if they're not coming from. The president of the United States that trump is being consulted about them. He's talking to trump about them. Because this is the stuff that trump follows as closely as anybody could remember before he ever fired Mahler before he ever fired James Komi, he fired Pri Pera the head of that office, after offering him to stay on the job, giving him the opportunity to stay on the job, thinking that he was somehow going to Seduce Ara and get somebody who he. He felt comfortable with in this very sensitive position that once that became clear that Berar wasn't GonNa go along. He fired him. So I have to believe that trump new. Every step of the way of bar was intending to do with Berman and may have even given the direction to do so. Look I mean it is also conceivable to me. That bar just didn't get along well with with Berman. He you know Attorney General in the modern era has. Has Not sparred and fought with the sovereign district of New York they do see themselves as being independent and independent in a way that I think gets under bill bars skin ultimately, I'm sure he would be saying. You gotta be accountable, and you can't go rogue. So maybe he was. There were concerns about that. Maybe he's having PTSD from back in the early nineties, but what he doesn't seem to be sensitive to. Is that even if he did this for? For the right reasons and we certainly don't know what those are. We're baffled by it. He at least needs to know that he works for a president who has over and over again undermined the Department of Justice either fired or sought to fire people from the Justice Department, because he didn't like their investigations, and I think we have evidence from the John Bolton. Book that at one point correct me if I'm wrong here Mike, but I think it was. Context of the Turkish investigation. The bank investigation that trump at some point says. Don't worry. We'll We'll get our people in there. Right in the get rid of it's. That's being done by Obama people. He tells that to earn on the investigation of the Turkish government owned bank to one being the president of Turkey. He tells them. You know that's being done by Obama. People will get rid of them and put our people in this certain. Bill Bar is doing now. That, the optics of it are terrible. He doesn't seem fair. It particularly sensitive to that, but the point the just to complete that story though is Bolton makes clear the book he takes his concerns about the president's interference or vows to interfere in criminal investigations to bar. HIMSELF RAISES THE ISSUE WITH BAR. So what were those conversations like? And what was bars takeaway from Bolton's concerns that the president was going to obstruct justice by interfering in these investigations I just want to. To point out one more point on this I think would get this to this in our discussion with ally Hoenig in a minute, but before this just a few weeks ago, we learned that Brian Ben's Cow Ski. The chief of the criminal division was resigning then it was the Solicitor General Knoll Francisco than it was the head of the Civil Division jody. Hunt One by one the top echelon of the Justice Department. The top officials. The Justice Department are heading to the. The hills with you know barely six months left in this administration, it does make you wonder what his going on at main justice. Yeah, I've never seen an exodus quite like this. Maybe it's a coincidence, but maybe there's also other shoes to drop things that we don't know her. That are going on there and they want to get it. I will say that I've talked to friends of bars. Who say that he is a guy who doesn't really care that much about. About what the headline writers say about him, or what the editorial pages say about him, but he does care, or he has always cared in the past about the Justice Department as an institution and the and the people who work there, and they cannot be particularly happy with how things are going and I wonder if that is stinging at all I, wonder if Bill Baras particularly happy these days in that job. Maybe he'll be the next to head for the hills. Doesn't seem seems likely. I don't see that happening. Hey, we should also point out before we get to our guests. Quite a scene in Tulsa the other night at the president's rally underwhelming turnout. What did the Tulsa authorities estimate the crowd as about sixty two hundred, well less than capacity, far from the one million that the president's campaign folks were suggesting wanted to come to that rally, and if you saw the shots of trump getting off Alec opther after returning from the rally, boy. Did he look unhappy? He did I think that if I were a senior member of his campaign team right now say Brad Parse. Carl I would not feel like my position was particularly safe and There are already rumors out there that he could be either demoted or out. We'll have to see about that, you know. I will say this. The only the silver lining here I think is that my guess is. There are a lot of people did not go to the rally because they were worried about. About catching covid nineteen, the numbers were spiking in in Oklahoma and people were not worrying masks in large numbers, and as ideology and political leanings only take you so far at the end of the day. My guess is there are a lot of people there who were didn't want to sacrifice you. Know their own or the health of their families, so that Donald? Trump could have a capacity crowd there. Yes, you can't imagine why. They wouldn't want to sacrifice the health of their families. Anyway, look, we got two great guests to talk about it, so let's get right to it. and. We now have with us to try to make sense of the whole US attorney fiasco. In New, York former federal prosecutor former prosecutor in the US Attorney's office in the Southern District Ellie Hoenig Ellie welcome back to skulduggery. Thank you Michael I. Think the key word used was the qualifier tried to make said. I. Don't know tends to be made here. Though bad well, you just let up to my first question. Because I and a lot of other people are baffled by what happened here. Why Bar chose to try to remove Berman in the way he did it obviously didn't succeed, but he did succeed in getting rid of him. What do you make of the series of events over the weekend about your former office in New York? So the only logical conclusion I can draw as that. That, this was a political play I. Just don't think you can look at all the facts as they played out and come to any other conclusion. So what's let me run through what I mean by that first of all? They know this late on a Friday night. That in itself does not solve anything, but let's keep in mind right? No one ever announces anything that they're proud of or they. They feel like they can fully defend at nine thirty on a Friday night. Then more importantly than that, they lie about bill bore lies. He told everybody that Justice Berman will be stepping down. I gotTa Tell You when I saw that announcement. My first thought was I'm not so sure about that in an hour later. Jeff Berman tells US nonsense I not stepping down I never said I was stepping down. So why is bill bar lying about that? Also with respect to the timing to remove a US attorney who was trump himself? Technically, he was nominated by Jeff sessions because trump never nominated anybody and then confirmed by just trump. Trump interviewed him, and he was hand picked by trump, and he's a longtime Republican. WHO's donated to Republicans to remove a person like that less than five months before the election with no warning to anybody is inexplicable, and I think fairly unprecedented so when you look at all of that, and then of course there was the whole confusing sideshow where bar changes position to say well now I've asked President and he is out and he will be firing you and then Donald Trump. When asked about that, I didn't have anything to do with it so they. They don't have their stories straight or their act stray, and my only conclusion is is it's political because look, the southern district is famously independent, and they have a whole series of prosecutions and investigation now going against people in trump's close orbit, so ellie I mean if bar or trump if they just decided, they liked this Guy Jay Clayton. WHO's the head of the SEC? And who was looking for a new job? They could have nominated him, but not removed Berman right. I mean they can say okay well. We want this guy in, so we're going. Going to nominate him, and you know Birmingham be there until he goes in, but I just wonder you say political, but is there at least the possibility, and there have been some suggestions of this and some of the coverage that I've read that it may not be political in the sense that they did like where the investigations were going getting too close to trump Giuliani, investigation for example. I'm not saying that wasn't that, but I'm wondering. Is it possible that it's also far didn't like Berman's coach that he was obstinate that he didn't want to. Difficult to work with. Is that a possibility? Would that be considered political? Let me say that I can't rule anything out, but to me. It seems highly highly unlikely for a couple of reasons, reason number one. They can't have had a problem with Berman's competency because we know. They offered him a high ranking position at main just at Justice Department headquarters, so they had a problem with his performance or his competency. You don't offer to move the guy down to dc into the main headquarters. Let let's start with that second of all Jay Clayton by Biolo- county, decent guy but woefully. Woefully woefully unqualified to be the US. Attorney for the Southern District of New York and all I. All I need to say on that is he's never been a prosecutor one day in his whole life, he works at the SEC the Securities and Exchange Commission, but that's that's not a prosecutorial body I mean to put someone with zero prosecutes or experience in front of the. Is beyond ridiculous, so let's start with those two things. If they just decided, they wanted to make a change legally. Absolutely the president could nominate and the Senate then confirm J. Clinton now the timing would still be very unusual, and it's I. Can't I'm sure it's happened, but I can't think of an example in recent history where president has taken his effectively his own pick for US attorney in Jeff. Berman and then replaced him right on the brink of an election. Election with another one of his picks. I mean George. W. Bush got in bit a heat because he removed a handful of his own appointed US attorneys, or was trying to. That's really the most, but that became a scandal in the Bush administration so even best case scenario I think that's where rapid I think. It's very unlikely that it was just sort of innocuous, but bungled, but look if the purpose here was for bar to seize control of some of. Of these sensitive cases and I want to talk about them in a moment. It seems to me at the end of the day. It entirely backfired because what we've ended up with. What bar announced on Saturday? When he made clear that trump had indeed fired Berman, so there was no question whether he could stay on the job he couldn't. He's been fired. He put in as the new acting US attorney. Audrey Strauss a career prosecutor. A registered Democrat who has contributed. Contributed to Hillary Clinton's campaigns among others, somebody who has seems to have a pretty sterling reputation for integrity, so bar didn't get what you're suggesting. He wanted to achieve in the first place right? Yeah, look. I ended up backfiring spectacularly. Of course, it's never the intention of anybody to have something backfire, but this is why Jeffrey Berman deserves credit and I don't know him by the way I didn't. I was gone before he started i. only know by reputation, but. If Jeffrey Berman had just gone along to get along, and it seems like this. William Bar wanted him to do. And Bar made the first announcement. Berman will be stepping down, saying we thank in first grade. Service Blah Blah Blah. We'll be nominating. Jay Clayton. If Burma just gone along with that, we would have been suspicious. People like me would have been raising alarms, but we wouldn't have known the full extent of, but because Berman said no, no, that's not the deal. I never said this. He did two important things. One is exposure. He shined a light on the fact that Bill Bar had just lied to the public and that there was made it much more likely that there is a. A political angle to what was going on here and to he essentially protected SDN Wyandotte much better end result because I already gave you. My thoughts on Clayton, clearly unqualified Audrey Strauss's is exactly the post who should have filled in this job because this is the way it works in the normal life. Let's just assume Jeffrey Berman had said I've done my time. It's been great but I I need to go make some money with back to my firm, or whatever which is very common thing for people to do. Then the US attorney leaves and the deputy. which is what Audrey stress was the number. Two person in the this steps up and becomes the acting US attorney that happened A. A couple times during my tenure that is the normal circle of life so to speak and Audrey Strauss plenty of people who know her work with her, and she has a reputation as what enough diy prosecutor should be right down the middle all about the facts, not about politics we'll now there's another figure that is part of the story I mean originally would bar was trying to do was put the US Attorney in New Jersey in charge of the southern district. Once Berman was out Craig Carpenter No I. Don't know if you know anything about him I do know looking at up that. He did represent Chris. Christie in the Fort Lee Lane closure scandal and he's a trump appointee, but. But sessions put him in there. Can you explain why ultimately bar was thwarted from doing what he originally wanted to do to put carpeting in there? Well, so let me say that first of all I know Craig. Carpenter fairly well I. Don't know why Earth State decided to thrust ten in the middle of this. He's a straight shooter. I know well I mean he's he's legitimate. He has real prosecutorial background, but he's also running the district of New Jersey I mean being a US attorney. For One district is a borderline impossible job i. mean talk anyone. He's been US attorney. It's it's all consuming and to I i. mean just physically impossible, so I don't know what their plan was there. Quick carpeting know not the Kinda guy who will go in and kill investigations or do the wrong thing, so can I tell you bill bars plan I? Don't know but I think again. The big unforeseen development was Jeffrey. Berman really standing up and saying publicly immediately after bars announcement. This is not how it went down, and it'll be interesting to see what American Jeffrey Parvin says I will say there is one new data point that just before we started this interview, the Wall Street. Journal move the story. Ah Battle letter that the Justice Department that main justice wanted Berman to sign. It was from the. Head of the civil rights visuals, a letter that was supposed to go to Mayor de Blasio, criticizing him for a double standard on social distancing, because he was continuing to push for social distancing for religious ceremonies, but not for protesting, and they wanted apparently Berman to sign this letter berm refused to do it because of wanted to preserve his relationship with the city, and I think he probably thought it was overtly political. Would that in any way explain? What happened here to you or let me say this? If that was the reason, why don't you say? Why not just say we had the difference in policy opinion and we're removing. However you know there's various ways that could be done legally, and and not just not just. That, but why about it was? He's stepping down and beyond that if this is the reason if you had a falling out over policy or whether he should be signing this letter or not, why offering a job at main justice for those three reasons I'm having a little bit of a hard time accepting that some sort of combined or legitimate reason, we should point out also that in bars letter on Saturday he. Encouraged any prosecutors are members of the office. who think that something improper is going on the contact. The Inspector General, which is not something you would do if your goal was to somehow squash the the investigation into Rudy Giuliani or any investigation into the trump organization. Now. Maybe bar felt he had no choice at that point, but isn't that. What the lawyers called men's Raya. Yeah right right. I mean I think that's what a lawyer calls. Cover your ass. I, it could. It could well be that, but it was not something he had to do, and also just think about it, you look. How long did you work in the office? Like eight years eight and a half years you know the people in their. You know their reputation for independence and integrity, and for chafing at any restrictions. Put on them by the by main justice. If in fact, the game plan, a bar was to interfere in these politically sensitive cases. Do you think? Think there's any way the world would not learn immediately about what he was trying to do I mean Berman himself. Let's say Berman took the job and then saw his cases being squashed. Surely you know, he would speak out as many other prosecutors in the office. Well, let me say two things on that number one. There are ways to undermine a case short of just coming in sending in the troops and saying we're seizing these files in this case closed right. There are more. Although bar has done that in the case of Michael Flynn. I'm sure I mean take for example on the molar case. Right Voeller lays out. What I think is a powerful case for obstruction. I mean I was one of the number of well over a thousand former prosecutors who said this is more than enough to charge obstruction of justice. Still Bar just sort of looks at it and the issues this summary Conclusion well I I respectfully in user these terms, but I respectfully disagree I. Just don't see an obstruction charge here. I mean so. That's not you know that's a subtle way to undermine the case to just say well. We have different interpretations. Look at the Michael Flynn cakes. A bar comes in and he and he covers himself in in official, looking legal citations and says this case was mishandled I. Mean if you really look at it. He's wrong legally, but MOLIERE's disagree. Warriors take silly positions, and so you can undermine the case in a really insidious way by just saying well I just reach an opposite conclusion. It's not necessarily as has obvious and sinister I. I hereby shut down. You just say well. I'm the Attorney General and that's why you know God. Bless you for being independent, but you're still part of the Justice Department and to you know I'm the AG and my word prevails. That's number one number two culturally in the southern district of New York. There is a the way you are raised. The way I was raised there is you do your job? You don't be a squeaky wheel. You never leak I mean I don't believe that asking why leaks in any significant way at least. USA's there. There's other people around you deal with law enforcement agencies, but I mean we had. The living daylights scared out of US and occasionally media. Call me I did mop cases, and they'd want me to talk about him. I was scared. I would just go. Press Office called the press office. Had whatever the extension was the and then just hang up. So there's that and also the reality is what's third year a USA if he feels like the attorney general has interfered with his case is GonNa pick up the phone and call the inspector general, who, by the way the attorney general and the president repeatedly have undermine. Let's not forget the undermined the Inspector General Oh, Gosh, they, they embrace the re the Pfizer report right well. No, they they embrace what they like, but they don't embrace with what they don't I mean when there were findings that there was no political button, no explicit political bias I mean trump has spoken out. Out Against this inspector, general several times, Bar hated the initial report that came out of Michael, Horowitz, who the office on the origins of the Russian case, and then that's why bar went and got John Durham and I think he's just you know it's like wow. I Durham was or had already been appointed to do that investigation. In fact, it was Durham who put out the most surprising comment of Durham. Some guy who's been up career prosecutor, a guy who's pretty well respected in the law enforcement community was he who challenged the conclusion of the Inspector General about the origins of the Russia investigation bar did as well, but it was Durham. Minded as well. Say said something to the effect of I. Don't necessarily agree with that and we'll. We'll see what Durham has to say, and an even when a step farther tipped his hand, and said I think we're going to be seeing so really. You know a strong findings coming out of Durham Shop, which is by the way against the Justice Department manual to a comment on pending investigation and be too common in a substantive way about how it might come out so far is undermine the I. J no question. Yeah, and it's pretty unusual for maybe unprecedented for an attorney general to criticize his own Inspector General I don't think. I'M GONNA I'M GONNA. Push back on that. We've already inspector general reports in which it's then distributed to the agencies the FBI the Justice Department, etc, and they make comments they accept the findings, and then they will challenge some findings as well. That is not that unusual for. Justice, department, of say, no, we don't accept all of your findings. There was a natural between any agency head and the I G that's why in hygiene is there to make findings about waste, fraud abuse, and within the agency head of ages. He's GonNa. Be! There's GonNa. There's a natural tension when I don't approve of. Is Bill Bar Holding up the I g the same person he has publicly undermined that we can debate to what extent but to some extent, and said hey, everybody after he got called out by the. The Way Bar for lying, saying well by the way anyone feel free to call the I G. if you see any problems, I mean like I said first of all as a practical matter what third year he's going to pick up the phone and get in touch with the IT office. I wouldn't have I would not have an and I think most of my colleagues would not have you want to do your job. You don't want to cause drama in the department and like I said there's ways bark and undermine. Undermine a case that are much more subtle and much less obviously sinister that I think people often imagine. What are you GonNa? Do say I thought there was an obstruction case here, but the a g disagreed with me. I want you to fix it. I G, that's just not a realistic. Okay. Let's step back for a second and put bars conduct in this episode in some contact historical context so to cough mentioned the Mike Flynn case where bar made the decision to drop that case, you mentioned the Mueller Investigation and obstruction. Obstruction there's of course pushing for a much lower sentence in the in the in the Rogers. Don't there's actually there's actually another? US Attorney episode where they pushed out Jessica Lu in the US attorney in DC to put bars crony from back in the day when we covered him, Tim Shea by the way she is then nominated for a high level. Treasury Department job until until trump pulls the plug on that so in the Pantheon of attorneys general. Where do you put bill bar I mean? How do you see how is? History, going to view his attorney general ship, whose e up there with is it John Mitchell it homer cummings. Where do you put him? Yeah I, mean look. I'll slot up a head of John. Mitchell was convicted of actual crime now at least, but but only a slaughter to. All I can really compare it to it. Is the Attorney General in my experience I worked under four. agee's when I was I think it was four at Seo, I came in under Ashcroft, a couple of years and then Alberto, Gonzales and then Michael M-. UK's easy and then Eric holder so three Republicans for Democrats, you're not always going to agree with the policy priorities of the Attorney General I remember Ashcroft coming around to the SDN lie, and he made his stump speech, and there was a big thing in there about how one of the things we were going to be doing was cracking down on obscenity, case, federal obscenity cases and we. We all just laughed and roll their eyes, and it became a joke within the office after that people are emailing the Home Office thing I hereby point so and so cheap to do obscenities unit, but you never gonNA. necessarily. You don't have to agree with the policy. Priorities of who the attorney general is for all four of those that I just mentioned three Republicans one Democrat I never questioned their essential integrity and independence. I I never saw any of them make a public statement that was immediately obvious or called out as being ally. I never believed that they were there to try to help or hurt the president or other political figures and And I think William bars is completely different in kind from those four ages who I worked under, so let's talk a little about the cases that people have pointed to the politically sensitive cases that the office was doing probably first, and foremost is the ongoing case of lead Parnis and ego fruman the to cronies of Rudy Giuliani, who have been indicted for illegal campaign contributions including arranging fun funding to a pro-trump Super Pac, and that has supposedly spun off. It's been reported to an investigation of Giuliani himself. That would seem to be you know. The most single most sensitive case that the office had there was also whatever happened to the outgrowth if If there was any of the Michael Cohen. Guilty plea for making the illegal payment to the porn star to protect Donald Trump that was implicated the trump organization, because Cohen got the money from the trump organization. What did they know there's that? There's also the Jeffrey Epstein case that obviously has gotten lots of attention as you look at the Pantheon, of cases out there. Do you believe that this could be related to the conduct of any of those investigations? Yeah, so each one of those investigations and I I'll throw in hulk. Thank while Turkish bank which we can talk about right although the Ha-. Bank has been indicted. They indicted the bank right. Right well, so always Epstein Cohen the question is where to these cases go how far and so let partners? The question I was looked. Every case I I mean I've had cases. It started with one person ended up with forty defendants. Right you just. Part of the I guess fun of being prosecutors. When you start a case, you just don't know who else is GONNA end up getting implicated in it, and so the question is on the one hand it helps me keep faith in the independent of SDN. Why did they even been allowed to get some of these cases off the crown that even under this administration, and some of the time under Bill Bar? They were allowed to indict Michael Cohen that was pretty bar to indict less Parnis to indict Hawk Bank, but the question is. Are they being allowed to run their full course? I'll give you a couple. Examples of what I'm talking about. Jeffrey Epstein Obviously He. He was indicted guide. Okay, but there is still a major investigation of co-conspirators I mean all the papers that DOJ put in Suny put in made clear obscene did not do this alone. There are multiple people out there who should have been indicted and if you remember this was last summer of twenty, nineteen. Both Essien Suny and William Bar after Epstein died made very strong statements that this will continue in this bars. Quote was his Co. conspirators should not rest easy well here. We are ten months later. Where's the case against the CO conspirators? That's number one. Maybe it's coming soon. I hope it's coming soon. It seems like an open and shut case Michael Cohen. Michael Cohen is the only person. CONVICTED OF! To do with the hush money payments to the two women who alleged they had that they had affairs with Donald, trump's, and that to me is a very strange outcome because you have a lot of people clearly were involved in authorizing and making an approving these payments yet. Only Michael Cohen has ever been charged. Nobody else. The problem on that one could be as simple as. The only other potential defendant. And the one who benefited the most from that is the president of the United States and under Justice Department policy you can indict a sitting president, or it may be that the evidence to prove that the president's intent was to affect the election simply rests on the word of Michael Cohen who's. Convicted of lying to the government, so not your best witness to bring a case against the President United States. I agree with both of those things. I mean look obviously cannot indict president, and I think SDN lie again. This is pre bar, but they managed to put in a shot in their in their sentencing. About of Michael Cohen where they said Michael, Cohen acted at the direction, and for the benefit of individual walk I mean look I. I'm guessing here. There's no way hell. They'll bar allowed that David to be put. In in any sort of DOJ court by that devastating statement, and yes I agree it's not the strongest case in the world, and Michael Cohen was willing to take a plea, so he can plead to. It S also made the move and I don't think there's anything nefarious here that that could be fairly second guess they free to Wesel Berg and packer right the guy from the national enquirer but. But when the movie were involved in these payments and look, it's the tactical decision I've been in that feed I've had this sometimes decided this guy worth giving a free task to to get his testimony, but they may have well ended up in a situation where there was nobody else. Realistically chargeable there, so look and life part. This is going to be really interesting to see where this case goats. Formation that leads them to Rudy Giuliani, and look back the big. Rudy Giuliani Kevin he did. That's an earthquake for Donald Trump, so we'll have to see how that goes. And and that could be hotly disputed cases well upon the Epstein case, and when we do know, there was some tension about Prince, Andrew and getting Prince Andrew's testimony and one wonders whether there could have been a conflict over that Berman wanted to question have the FBI question. Prince Andrew and the National Security Council maybe at the direction of the president. Who didn't want to dust up with? With Boris Johnson said No. We can't risk a confrontation with the Brits Right now. Yeah, I mean. I haven't seen any specific reporting that that that happened. Possibly look. I'm Rudy God. Bless sem, why here at going after Prince Andrew at least to get testimony per se Prince Andrew, who we know was a buddy of Jeffrey. Epstein's and has made some questionable statements since then he vowed that he would assist the investigation, and so the FBI and prosecutors ear apparently said great. When did we talk? Andrew present when it's a hiding essentially and you know now if you're in the position, you have to do what's called an M. La, Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty. It's this whole difficult process to get a foreign subpoenas served, but what Prince Andrew I mean. He said he was going to pull operating. He's now died. When I what I don't get on. That one is Zane Maxwell. Epstein Sidekick, who, from all the testimony of the women was the one who was procuring girls for Epstein why she hasn't been charged at this point is the biggest mystery to me. It's funny because I puzzled through this with people we've said. How would they not already charged her? I mean six months ago and I'll tell you what I up I mean it could be. She's cooperating and they're still debriefing her, but I don't know who that really else. To together who she's the procure. Seems to be the main person. Yeah I think what it? It's bad prosecution. If you have a large ring like this, the top dyke dies. You don't then flip the number. Two Guy just clean up the number three four five guys. We used to say you want to cooperate up the chain not down. You want to get a lower level player testifying against the bigger level players so I. I really I cannot for the life of me. figure out what they're doing with Maxwell so Elliott. Just wrapping up here there as all of this is going on, there is this kind of bit of a mystery that coffin I have been wondering about which is this kind of rapid exodus out of the Justice Department over the last ten days or so? You had no Francisco the solicitor. General, who laughs then you had Brian Vince cows ski the head of the Criminal Division and just just the other day. Jeffrey Jody Hunt So. The. Civil Division hunt the head head of the Civil Division. WHO's gone and all of these cases? It seemed very abrupt. Where they were where they were going so. What do you think's going on here? I can't remember a time. When that many high level Justice Department officials left in succession like this I I also cannot remember it like I said. I've been through a couple of transitions in DOJ, but I've not seen this. I mean the normal way this works is the election happens whether your party wins or loses, you know the resignation start coming after the election, and it's also not uncommon for people leave, even if the even the administration gets reelected to leave or Or offer resignation in advance of the second term, so it is unusual and I. Don't know what's going on. It could be like if I had to just play complete guesswork. Maybe people are looking at the numbers. The way things are going and just thinking like I. See where this one's headed editor to get out now and might as well have a couple more months out on the on the private sector making money. I, do want to mention because this is a long running pet peeve of mine. There was a time because we talked about I talked about the utter lack of prosecutorial credentials for Jay Clayton, but the top four officials at the United States Department of Justice combined ever tried and prosecuted zero case as the line prosecutor I mean Bill Bar was g in the nineties, but he never tried a case or charged the case himself on the line. You had your your number two your deputy. Attorney General Jeffrey Rosen had no criminal experience, and it's actually funny. I looked at his website, his bio on the official website and there's sort of apologetic line like although he's never practicing criminal law. He has extensive experience in Yoga the number three. Three persons the associate. Attorney General Blanket on the day. She has never prosecuted a case. Then you have bench cow ski, who was in charge of the criminal division and never prosecuted the case, and even the Solicitor General No Francisco has never prosecuted a case, so that your top five people really at DOJ on the criminal side with a grant of of zero, which by the way is the same number of no hitters that I have road major league, baseball I was Gonna I was GonNA say A. After listening to that. They should bring you into the justice, Department have you take over the criminal division? I'm sure that's administration's eager to hire me. We'd be eager to have you on skulduggery either way so thanks a lot for coming back and we'll be back to you as this bizarre story unfolds my pleasure anytime, guys, thanks! We now have with us a special guest. We've been wanting to get on for quite some time. Rick Wilson Co founder of the Lincoln Project avowed unabashed, never trumper, former Republican strategist. Welcome Rick to skulduggery. Thank you so much. Mike I. Really appreciate you having me well look, there is so much to talk about here. trump's cratering in the public opinion polls as corona virus cases sore. The black lives matter protests and the Bolton book, a lot of material for you to work with as part of your effort to ensure that Donald Trump is defeated in November. It seems to me like you've got an almost embarrassment of riches there you. You know the one thing that I can rely on every day. IS THAT DONALD? Trump will get up in the morning and rage tweet from toilet and say something that will will either make it into an ad, or or be an idea for an ad or some message that we're able to put out to illustrate to Americans. Just how unstable and unacceptable and unhinged. The Sky has become as president. The isn't embarrassment of riches, and a lot of it ironically comes down to things that trump thought work strengths, and now are not yet. He thought the economy was always going to be there as sort of a killer APP to keep him in office. He thought that he thought that from the very beginning that his base was. Never ever going to crack and it started to crack a bit, and so we see a lot of these things that are venues for us to talk about where Donald Trump is politically, and that irritates dramatically because the reality bubble he formed relies on people believing that the economy is perfect, covert has gone. He is the most handsome brilliant and incorruptible candidates ever hold the office a president since none of those are true, days are exciting. We're going to get into the issues and where he's especially vulnerable, but just staying on the numbers and the data for a little bit, you talk about his base, beginning to crack and just be specific about where you're seeing those. Those cracks right now. Some of the cracks were seeing are in seniors in polling in both Michigan Arizona and Florida. We've seen this the number with seniors that supported Donald Trump in twenty sixteen drop off between three and five points in each of those places. Sure that's basically margin, but he can't afford a lot of slippage in that department and seniors were very strong part of the trump demo and the two thousand sixteen election. What partly because? Because they were the most likely to watch Fox, they were the most likely to be retired. There most likely to to lean further to the right in the ideological stack, and because of that we are now in a position where you know. Trump is advertising in places like grand rapids, Michigan, which is a red older area. He's advertising in the Florida panhandle again a very read very much older than the median area. So! We know they're having to work with those with those folks we know in Arizona. There's been a drop off of seniors as well. We've also seen a drop off. I, mean we saw this beginning? In Twenty Seventeen Female Republicans and educated married Republicans were slipping away beginning back in seventeen, we saw a big migration especially in the ring. Suburbs of major metro areas like Detroit and Milwaukee in Orlando Start to shift to Democratic candidates, and those things could have only have come with suburban Republicans and educate Republicans moving over those things all add up. In a lot of small numbers in small places to a clarifying moment in the campaign. Just taking this forward here, let's assume for the moment that the covid cases continue to increase in this. In, the southern states, you were seeing huge increases in Florida in Arizona in Alabama. These are pretty hard core red states, and as people begin to absorb the kind of shocking revelations in John, Bolton's book and others potentially come forward. Is there any scenario whereby Mitch? McConnell starts looking at the numbers over the next few weeks and concludes the Senate, Republican majority is in serious jeopardy cannot be sustained with Donald Trump at the head of the ticket the. The Republican Party is facing a potential disaster along the lines of Barry Goldwater. In nineteen, sixty four, and he and a few others go to the White House, and say Mr President. Maybe you should step down I. think that Right now, Mitch? McConnell is not there, but he's knocking on the door in the outer room to that to that discussion, there are Senate races that should be easy. Lay ups for them this year. That are getting sweaty. They're racist. where the Challenger equation, you know particularly Arizona Colorado. It looks like those things. Could potentially you know be competitive races? And now they both like there solidly in the Democratic Camp. North. Carolina is not where they want it to be. Georgia is complete hot mess. Alabama is there one bright spot right now? which is not saying much for a Republican Party, but we McConnell have the gumption and courage and fortitude to do something like that I. Don't think Mitch McConnell would I think he a nervous, nervous, internal player but I think he might be forced into it if the disastrous cap. Nate and I think there's. There's going to be a moment where the economic weight of this problem becomes so overwhelming as McConnell is going to be seen as the guy who block additional release, just as voters starting to get addicted from their homes and apartments, and I think that's GonNa Roll Downhill for a lot of Republicans and even trump by the way we'll Shank shank Mitch McConnell in the end. He'll blame. That's McConnell for not providing additional unemployment benefits. Historic scenario for sure. Yeah, I was GONNA. Say I guess Rick The question is. What kind of leverage does Mitch McConnell? Has I mean unless the premise here is that as some people have said in the past? You Know Donald Trump? Never even really wanted to be president. He doesn't really want to go through another four years even if he does when he doesn't WanNa. Lose electorally, but. The guy whose father drummed into him. You're either a killer or a loser. That is all MO in right so. It's hard to imagine that trump would step down I think it's an exceedingly unlikely scenario would step down I. think it is a meaningfully likely scenario that Mitch McConnell will have to make a choice of stick with trump or save the Senate majority, and I think that's already too late I probably already too late. Now think he's already failed that test. Because McConnell could have made a move that put distance himself and trump, and the members and trump, but now they all own him I mean Susan, Collins of Maine her election would be a layup. If? She hadn't him and hard gone back and forth and furrowed brow, enacted all sweaty and concerned, and then finally exonerated trip regardless. It turned out. The evidence didn't matter that. Her race will be easy. That's the that's the big issue right now is that she says she's independent, but she's not and a lot of these are the folks in these marginal races? Arizona Mc Sally Colorado with Gardner. In these tapes that are that are breaking more blue. The stain of trump is bad. It is a political. Wait on those folks, and and it's not going to get any lighter. Do you see any Republican top Republicans out there? Who might surprise us and publicly break with the President we've had. Lisa Murkowski say she struggling to support him. Romney already sort of you know. Lay down his marker during the impeachment. Do you see potential that others might come forward not at the moment, but I think that there will be cutting time. Probably closer into August between August and September there will be a moment where they're pollsters. Come back and say okay. The unemployment rate is sky. High people are blaming trump in the economy trump on the collapsed economy. They're blaming him on the continued death toll of covert, and it's time for you to put some daylight. They're the trump. Will still be with you because you're a Republican. You believe in all these Republican things, but you've got to save yourself with independence and. You know a lot of them will resist because they are. Afraid of Donald Trump afraid of him because he's some you know. Intellectual giant his mob. They're afraid of getting twitter slammed by his mob. and. Getting on the wrong side of Fox News, and getting on the wrong side of all the trump media outlets out there, but those folks. I didn't do enough campaigns to tell you that survival is a strong incentives that the idea that you're gonNA lose or change. Change will come when you feel like you're gonNA. Lose a sometimes. Finding. The premise of my question that. Nobody wants to lose and that that would be you know the reason that some people might come forward, and you know. Maybe it's a dream scenario. They idea that that they'll be sort of you. Know moment when as Barry Goldwater did with Nixon seventy two where they go to the White House and say you gotTa leave Yeah it's over I. Want to ask you about how you in this polarized environment can persuade anybody at this point. It seems to me that that trump bases so impervious to arguments to new facts that. You know that people are so dug in on both sides that I just wonder you. You're running some really tough ads ridiculing trump. You're right off the the Bolton. Balk with stuff about China, but does it convince anybody who who's your target audience in these ads? This is a game of very small numbers first off. The game small numbers you know. Trump won the whole election by seventy six thousand bucks and three states one four to by less than a hundred fifty thousand boats. So those small numbers that we have to move our targetable in this race, we will be able to find and find that address the people we need to find an address. Come the election window, but we're litigating this campaign with a lot of folks who have believed things about Donald trump that have collided now with reality so severely that you can't spend them. You can't pretend that they you know. Obviously we've talked for last four years. AD infinitum about Russia there was a public space where that story could be confused and conflated and obscured and spa on what you can't spend two hundred thousand deaths. You CAN'T SPEND FORTY MILLION UNEMPLOYED AMERICANS, so we think our ads are very effective in terms of moving moving the discussion moving the numbers and some of our ads we've openly said are designed purely to get into all trump's head and the mess with Donald Trump because everyday. Donald Trump is yelling about us or attacking Lincoln. Project is a day. He's not up attacking. Today he's not up. Spending resources. There's a story last week that the trump campaign is spending four hundred thousand dollars a month now in Washington, DC to run ADS. Because trump was so angry, he was seeing our ads on television, but not the campaign ads as we all know, there's nobody scenario where Donald Trump wins Washington. DC under any circumstances, but playing the world of were playing as as his primary antagonists, and as as folks who are who are who are in this fight, giving moderate Republicans in suburban Republicans. Some reasons to say I can't support this guy a second time. That's a mission set. We think we're very effective them. So Rick I'm what you attribute this kind of creating in trump's standing to a primarily. How much is it just over the last three and a half years the to use your word unhinged conduc conduct the scandals, the crazy leading. How much of it is these executives factors like corona virus, the economy now may maybe even the protests in the sense that the country is out of control and I know it may be all of these things, but was there a kind of a breaking point that has to do with these outside factors. Those factors absolutely have had a role to play in where the debate bait dialogue. Dialogue shifted, but it wouldn't have. It wouldn't have had the same impact. If Donald Trump had been a relatively normal president, if he had been a relatively stable president, if he had occasionally disciplined himself to say the right things that presidents are expected to say in moments of crisis or trauma or leadership, he instead had to play the role of Donald Trump to the hilt all the time. And because of that win, these factors finally hit him the ability to bullshit his way out of the box brand into as I said the unspeakable and two hundred thousand people dead it, which is what we're headed for is unspeakable, an economic collapse of great depression standards on spendable so all in all those cases, there's a sense that trump could have had a different glide slope here, but he did. What about the the protests of black lives matters movement I? Mean he obviously tried to take a page out of the Nixon playbook we've. About nine, hundred, sixty eight on this on this podcast. We know it's not in any sense. A perfect analogy since Nixon was not the incumbent and trump is but. What a deft politics Republican conservative politician been able to have taken advantage of that situation with the kind of a law and order message, or is it just that you gotta get with the times and things are changing. This very different world than nine, hundred sixty eight, and although as I talked and wrote about in the beginning of this. The Roger Ailes DNA. That informs the trump campaign both sixteen today is very strong that Roger ailes approach to the racially divisive politics that Nixon exploited because like the silent majority meant the white majority. The silent majority meant that he was going to protect suburban and EXURBAN whites from those people in the in the that were burning the cities down. And in that narrower media climate of the time, it may have seemed like a much more compelling message than it does today because we didn't see pro the provocations in those cases as clearly as we do today. There wasn't a scene of consistently of George Floyd on TV, there were bigger cataclysmic moments definitely, okay. Bobby Kennedy all these, but they weren't. As the media landscape was a different place. I think that there's a inclination on the side of the trump folks. Very much play to the cop cult and very much play to the back. The Blue folks who he sees as the core of is base not inappropriately by the way they are the core of his base, and I think it also reflects sort of belief of trump himself. Fred's kid here is not a guy who is notoriously been a civil rights leader in this country. And, because of the way, I think that trump himself us. Race based on simple part five the birther stuff that casino stuff all these matters I think very much. Reflect his approach of saying be tough. Knock them down. Don't treat him too nice all that sort of It's not quite bull, Connor, the dogs work, but it's in. It's knocking on the door of the kind of and I gotta just say that as we've been recording this podcast. Trump tweeted. Maybe he was listening because he just tweeted about Mitch. McConnell at Mitch always delivers for the people. Who will hopefully reelect their powerful Senate majority leader. Mitch has helped us make America great again. I and has my complete and total endorsement. Worried about the scenario. Laid out. Will We will see on that, but does it does make me wonder whether they were listening Yeah Rick. You support for President Two Thousand Sixteen I supported Marco Rubio. And after Rubio dropped out I went from radio I Like, everybody else I went to the stations of the cross. As we as we went down the chain, you know it ended with basic I. Guess but I worked for a pro mark of Super Pac briefly that was coming together with a bunch of California. Folks who are investing a Super Pac out there. That fell apart because trump started to eat marco's lunch. And he jabs lunch. And you know, you could almost see in real time the alteration of the DNA of the Republican Party. What are you? Can I can I ask? What do you make of Rubio now? I was really struck the other day when the Bolton book came out, and Rubio was asked about that appalling scene in the Bolton book where the President seems to be encouraging, President Gee to continue with the herding of Wieger 's a million leaguers into concentration camps now that's been an issue for Rubio. He has spoken out about Chinese human rights abuses in particular. What's being done to? To the weavers, and when he was asked about what was in Bolton's book, Rubio, who, now by the way, is acting chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee says well I don't have any way of knowing whether that happened I wasn't there? Who knows whether it happened or not? Now it would seem to me that the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee's job is to find out information when you weren't there in the room. That's what intelligence is all about assure you gotta read back to the intelligence community of those meetings all right. So what do you make of? The Way Rubio responds these days and continues to have good kid gloves about the president of the United States. But I. I like Marco, but there are a lot of people in the Senate now. Who are what I call profiles and Chicken Shit. They are so afraid of Donald. Trump that they will do anything. To prevent him from turning his eye on to them, they'll do anything to keep him from attacking them or tweeting about. or saying something nasty or giving them a new. Name? Them Rick you just set. You told us a little while ago that the president's numbers are so shaky that he's running ads in the panhandle, the Florida panel Lou Most Ruby Red Part of Florida. If he's worried about the Florida panhandle, why is Rubio so chicken Shit of Donald Trump right now? Because if he goes after if he goes after Donald Trump, he will not get invitations to appear on Fox News. He goes after trump. The president's twitter feed will will attack him, and he will be turned into a political pariah, and I will tell you the other reason and. We all know this almost every one of these members of the Senate. Who is younger and more ambitious? They want to run for President Twenty Twenty Four. And they have in their heads of very simple calculus that calculus is this. They believe that they can create a post. Trump nationalist populist party they can sand off the rough edges of Donald Trump and they can become the Avatar for for nationalism and post conservatism, and get the trump based to stick with them in the twenty twenty four national election. That, they can build this new coalition of nationalist economic populism that is still fairly white, but also make big inroads working class vote. To get that they all think to themselves. They have to keep Fox and they have to keep the trump base, and they're going to do everything they can to not have on their permanent record an attack on Donald Trump and conflict with donald trump. They really want to avoid that at all costs. Well, that's certainly been the case until now I do wonder as the poll numbers continue to slip for trump. Now Biden is now up by twelve points in the in the Fox News poll double digits. Murdoch household. Last question from me, this is. Kind of amazingly that this would ever happen in our lifetimes, but there is. Some serious discussion among relatively serious people that. If Donald trump loses the election which he is now on a seems to be on a glide path toward doing that. He may not willingly give up his office. You know there's the possibility at least all these male in votes that we won't know the results immediately that he will use that to wreak havoc and he will you know try to undermine the legitimacy? Is that something that you think people legitimately ought to be concerned about, or is that a little paranoid at this? This point as I told a democratic group the other day that I spoke to like. How do we prevent this I? Said well. You Win the election by such John Margin that it doesn't matter if he cheats you absolutely just have to destroy him electoral. You'd have to beat him not by you know. Two hundred and seventy three electoral college got me by three hundred and fifty, and that that idea that trump will try to stay. I think is legitimate for one reason. What do we know about Donald Trump? Donald Trump Kinda gambler. He's kind of a day trader. He will always try to pull off some kind of bs because he thinks he can get away with it, and he's often right. He's often correct. The Hill tweet, something or name, somebody something, and it will often stick. He's got a very cunning wave getting that that sort of populism to work for him now. Now, does that mean he is going to be able to stay. In the White, house and he's beaten and and the electoral college certifies the vote. No, it will it will, it may take time. He may be stubborn, but don't be surprised if it's a closer election that he declares voter fraud that he tries to litigated that he that he gets on on Fox News immediately every day after that. The election was stolen. The country's at risk I need ninety days one hundred twenty days. This is a scam. This is a rigged election. I need you to my people to stand up and fight for me. Don't be surprised if you see that because. He's again. He's a gambler. Well on that apocalyptic, Note. Yes. Well Anyway Rick. Yes we will be back to you to see whether your forecast of apocalypse happens in reality. To Hope I'm wrong. Okay well. We'd like to either way. We'd like to have you back and for joining us on Scott. Thank you so much. Thanks former assistant US attorney for the Southern District of New York. Eliot Hoenig and co-founder of the Lincoln Project and former Republican Strategist Rick Wilson for joining us on skulduggery. Don't forget to subscribe to skulduggery on Apple podcast or wherever you listen to your podcasts and tell us what you think. Leave a review. Be Sure to follow us on social media at skulduggery. Pot will talk to you soon.

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