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Pick Your God - Dr. Francis Burgula
"Welcome back everybody. Time for another episode of Church hurt. and. The good, the bad and the ugly about church, religion and spirituality today. With a dash of recovery thrown in along the way. So if you've ever had questions about. Your own spirituality or religion today maybe become a bit jaded about whole subject. You've come to the right blood. Because today our show entitled. Pick your God. India. or Proven once again. Tackle anything controversial. Are Host while he was an honors philosophy graduate. He graduated. became an ordained minister and planted three churches along the way. Founded a prestigious university and was teaching pastor at one of them. Even services an executive coach for Wabi Now! Now. He's just an aging curmudgeon. Like, all of us. Who never tires of asking the one question? Maybe the only question on everybody's mind. Why? Why not bring him in. Dr. John Bash welcome Sir. Thank you Paul. What God do you believe in magic and that as the icebreaker question at a party or a Business Roundtable? Quickly we would realize why the old adage game to be in talk about anything, but politics or religion by eight that. Trouble is sure GONNA brew. But isn't it a legitimate question? What God do you believe in i? Work a lot in the recovery field and and talk of a higher power is very important there people were will refer to their higher power. Seemed strange to me I. Do People think that? God is like ordering a hamburger? I'll take my God with a pickle, or hold the pickle, and hold the judgment drop the adultery for sure and give me an extra dose of love, sweet love or reflection upon this took me back to my first philosophy of Religion Course Day one there you learn to distinguish between religions there theus they believing in one God in those which are polytheistic, believing in many guts sound simple. Guess what? I've watched in my lifetime and I can say that now that I'm old the world around me and I mean the USA transition from an overwhelmingly predominant the nation. Even Christian the it's going to church. Too Unapologetic unrefined polytheists. Think about that for a second. Who is your higher power? What God do you? Worship sounds like a smorgasbord to me. How could this have happened? Wait I've might be. It's my western thinking. We can learn from the east. They have a different lodge. It can certainly different view of God. Now if you want confused yet, you were not listening. Today we have a guest who's one of the best people in the world that help us understand what is baffling to most be grew up in India ended up becoming a Christian in college to join the percent of that country, which is so even went on to become a minister. Get a degree from southern California got doctor from Talbot Theological Seminary now. He spends most of his year in India, ministering to Ministers and Dr Francis Burg Welcome twelve and a half hours away to church hurts. A thank you John thanks for this opportunity such a pleasure. Just briefly I love India bond rates here hidden the proud to be a person was born and raised in India but the opportunity. I had to come and live in America Southern California especially for twenty years. I not only read about life on two sides of the planet. What was able to live life on the planet so? All the discussions of east to West. Contrast and commonality. This is a great blessing and I'm just so excited to. US to talk about the world from two different perspectives, as to how will see life in America and how we see live here in Indiana, so looking forward for this discussion will let's let's really just jump into the deep waters in light. You know what's going on in America now. It's so trendy to say. Oh, my gods more of a Hindu, God or a more Buddhist in my thinking. Can you explain to us what that means? Absolutely Jollibee. Let me start with. An Indian PROBAB- by the way. India has several languages so for all all the listeners out here, unlike America where we have a common language English hidden in India, we have at least fifteen. Dominant languages which have made it different from each other, so it's not just a dialect, we are not talking about a language which has dilates. We are talking about fifteen different languages. I speak a language called Telugu. It's a south Indian language. Indians are very religious people, and they come up with all these great proverbs, and this is a great problem intelligence. Let's say in Telugu so that you can have a feel of. How does this language Song so? Dude up Condu- menopausal. It's a saying that's as much. Look smooth from a distance. Mountain's look smooth from a distance. Americans are fascinated with Indians. Eastern religions and saw Indians Indians are also fascinated with the western world better technology, their economy, their fashion. The fascination goes both ways. It's not just that Americans feel. That is cool to be a Hindu or a school to be a Buddhist. In fact, there are plenty of Indians here in India. Who Even Nike shed and feel that at school to have something American Adidas Nike, so those who are curious about America's fascination with eastern religion? I would like to just give a brief overview of how this fascination devil. It started hundred and twenty five years ago close four years. There was A. Great Indian philosopher call we under. He came to Chicago. To clear of say that clear. who wasn't we, Nanda? That was the name of this Hindu philosophy. VIVICA Manda and he came to Chicago. Eight thousand, nine, hundred hundred, was this world religious conference and he was the first one who made a awesome impression on most of these. Westerners. started of their logic is different beer usually thinking more noughties, and he comes there and presence Hinduism and I think there was this huge reception for his lecture in. Chicago so that is when. That's the beginning of Hinduism becoming popular in America, but then I had to come back to where it really turned to get Christie is when the Beatles who became a big fan of transcendental meditation. They came to be case which is very holy, placed in India in one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty eight, so they were fascinated with this guy called Marci Yogi, who taught transcendental meditation, and that is. I believe the beginning of this whole new age moment, and after that came yoga after that came meditation, and after that Came Hardy, Rama Hari Krishna Moment, the fests and Deepak Chopra. All of these guys made Hinduism very fascinating thing for the rest audience. But the reason it is fascinating again. Cool is because they only see to find site or the my side of Hinduism. That's why I started that court. The, mountains look smooth from a distance. Only when you come close to the mountain, UC that it does have many sharp edges, and it's not as smooth as it looks from there. Before you before you go there Francis so because you just gave us I, mean talk about a mouthful, so if someone's listening, they're saying. How did he sneak new age into their a basically? You're saying what we call new age, which really in many ways has gotten into our teaching and business practices in Psychology you mentioned in meditation, certainly in recovery, the recovery world, lots of spiritual stores are under this umbrella the ear staying. Staying, all's really coming out of the East, actually started. Most people don't know about one hundred twenty years ago. That medical conference that happened and Oh. That's good. Yeah, the phone in the middle of the show you put that under that whole umbrella that I was mentioning in terms of people think. Wow, that's really spiritual because in church. We just had this judgmental God that were rejecting. What about the lobbing accepting God of George Harrison? Now! You're really gonNA, tell us it wasn't like that kindle. Isn't that smooth loving stuff? It's not. Let me just add a few more things to what I mentioned so. When you see from when you live in America, obviously, if you end up coming to India and live in India and see what Hindus really believe, and what they actually practice, and all the differences they have, then I think all the. Rosy impression. You have about eastern religion. You look at least it'll be corrected so what you see from there is just nice side. Are the pragmatic useful helpful side of what some of these Hindu practices due to American audience. Present Yoga they don't talk about the origin of huge yoga. They don't talk about the origin of Transcendent Mitch the. In fact, they are so clever and smart. When they brought money up. Many of these practices America they cleverly carefully separated religion just presented them as spiritual practice, the worst financial sound so awesome. That's why most Americans say. I'm show, but not religious, but hey, you know that's a different discussions, we. We can have later, but the Indian Gurus who brought his practices there. They have a clear agenda of the West. They brought this and it is now so popular. In fact, it is so popular that there are churches which have yoga as part of their Bible Study Group and I'm like dude. You have zero idea of the origin of watcher tweeting. You're just saying it's good for health so okay gain now. You could really go down this path. I can hear you talk on this for hours, but I'm going to just get you back to even so when if I talk about the Hindu God? Is that even an appropriate way to talk. What's The Hindu God? Good costume. In fact, that is no one can do God. It's a Ottis. Tick view very many garden. In fact, it is popularly known that we have thirty three million eighties our guard, so unlike the Western mind where we think about one God who created everything. This is just card who is everywhere, and he is so many different appearances, and he functioned differently worship differently, so we do believe thirteen million are so you can actually have a personal guard who is in Europaeus who is different from the Card I worship in my house so India is a very policies to hinduism very polytheistic religion with multiple many many guards at all, so we don't have a single source of scripture Islam has. Has courant Christians the Bible so you can actually go back to so, what do you believe what what are the doctrines? You believe what you believe God what he will humanity when it comes to Hinduism, because it's just an ocean, and it's a constantly developing religion. It's not like, and that's one of the reasons why we cannot really nail it down and be financed. Say So, what is in Lewisham it's like it's an ocean. It is still growing. It's still changing so by the time you come up with definition. It's wrong because there is something you added to it, so that sounds really good, though it's kind of an ocean. This feels good. Let's get out are essential oils and meditate on a certain phrase, but but Francis let's let's do it this way. We're. We're supposedly from a country that has a Christian tradition like to talk about judeo-christian. The truth matters if you just look at the history, this is really a bunch of. Say and I i. really would like to practice freely, and now we're living in a time where people are saying. No, we're not being equal enough, and we're having these issues about race in the consequences of slavery, and the gap in in wealth, and all of these things was statues coming down so this all men are created equal in the separation of journ state and what that means. But you're all peaceful. No matter which Hindu God. It's a peaceful place. They would be handling this much better. Give us a sense of modern political correctness in India. Excellent question in fact before I jump I, jump into the one more one of the reason why Americans are so fascinated with eastern religions. Hinduism because because this is a lot closer to the post, modern thinking where there is no absolute truth, but there is no right or wrong. There is no. It's. It's. Relative. That is very appealing to the Martin postmodern. American mind because. I I would like to be part of that religion where there is no right or wrong. Most standard with which you can measure everything is relative. That's. For why Hinduism is like everybody likes to be part of. Our Brag about I have some friends? I have some into practice, but as I said it's really nice to be there and talk about Hinduism, but if you end up coming here and if you had to live here in India, let me answer that cost of all been created equal. It's a powerful statement for for most Americans. We grew with this statement. It's the second sentence of our declaration of independence. We heard it again and again. It's great. It's brainwashed. All men are created equal according to the Hindu. Scriptures reach our way thus. It's one of the scriptures they have weighed us. Every human being is created into a caste system. So there are two things which Hindus. They're the pillars of Hinduism one. Is this concept of Karma meaning? You do something you pay for it. There is nobody who can pay for you. Give beore of it so. Kerma and lean carbonation meaning, this whole cycle of that should already raise a big red flag for most Western audience, because from the Western point of view, life is seen linear. You're son, you're dead. You're gone. Whereas from the Indian point of view, keep coming back cycle birth, so these two things cast of Karma and reincarnation are very big hot in Hinduism and Buddhism. Hindus believe that people are create their bomb into cast. Let me just give you an overview of the forecast to answer your question. Are All men create an equal the answer? No, absolutely no. But if you live in a country, which always practiced, always said it allowed, and you see it everywhere. You don't even. You don't even think that there is a different way of looking at it. This is how we lived all of. Your born into a cast and you were raised in that cast with from your parents saying that we belong here. You look up to these days. Don't even associated with this case. You'd never associated with these days because they are under you. You don't associate with these guys because they're about. So, Basically though there's four, we all know about the untouchables only one. We really know about right. There's that's the basically. Basically three more rate. What are the other one? The first one, the top one is brandman. Grandma's are the police and the teachers and the second one are the chatelier's. These are the warriors in the rulers, the third one of. These are the farmers, traders and merchants. And, then the fourth one are the Sudras the shooter's. The Labor's now when you talk about the untouchables you talk about the Dalai Bees not even part of the four which I mentioned. These are outcasts meaning that our forecasts and Those who don't belong to the system that's why outcasts and these are the people who. The street sweepers toilet cleaners. There are many others. So you're bomb. Knock equal, and that's the reality with which we live every day here and so basically. This just hit me a few weeks ago. So there are those whose families are literally to sweep the house. It's like what they're going. They know they're going to grow up with their mom and dad did they swept people's homes? And that's what they're going to grow up and do right that basically they're going to be. Four sweepers all their life. Right, yes. As just so four and I. Say to you just because I can't fathom. Years ago. My daughter, who if she was in her teenage years, she went through a real wild stage, and she got real wild friends, but she started to become more aware of political things and a good friends that I you to come to Paris with me. Her Dad at arranged for it to happen, and it was like a big deal. She gets to travel to Paris and so here I have my liberal teenage daughter. Comes home. In was just looked at me and said dad that I understand some things you've said now and I said why. And she said people would talk to me and say you're from southern California. You can be anything you want to be southern California. This is from French. People Matt from Indians. She was amazed in France of people saying. Wow, an American from California. How much better is get where you're coming from? You're talking about the exact opposite of that, aren't you? Yep exactly was in the sense most Westerners. What is very difficult for them to imagine is that they say hey, that was. Many years ago and yeah, it is still true that India has caste system by the way we do have a constitution we do have laws and the on paper. They say it is bisque. Mission is not allowed. We should not discriminate but A. Is Lot of. Have said on paper. They mean nothing when it comes to the real world in practice so in practice even as of today. In the big cities in the big metropolitan cities, we go to New Delhi and Hyderabad well. You won't see very obviously, but. From any big city you go to town or a village. It is very obvious as to. Who people associated with it's usually with people within their own castes, they will not intermarry within the casts. They will not go to an occasion, and even with the person of a different castle is not said it out loud, but in practice it is very very real every day of our life. Baffle you though coming here? Knowing that. In seeing that sense in the world is you met people of the? Looking up to like that would be something to ascertain to. That kind of spirituality were in your own life. You ended up making decision to come to Jesus in College. How did that happen? I was born and raised in a Christian home, so it was, it was easy for me to really consider Jesus, but by the time I reached high school I wasn't even really sure about Jesus claims because I was surrounded, but he knew Francis surrounded by Muslim friends who believe friendly and I just wanted to fit in is just to be. Friends with them? And so I did consider this what they believe and I heard about what they believe in a lot of what I hear from them is just this whole notion of Kerma and reincarnation. There is really no good news. You just have to work your way out and. that. Really depress me, and then it just forced me to think so. What will really help assist like me? Who is guilty? Who is wanting to live a different life, or who can save this wretched sinner, so that was my struggle, and the only answer right? A found was Jesus Christ who did something about my sin, unlike most other religious systems where we have some great, who talked who said awesome things, but there is nothing about your sin, but Jesus was the only person who not only told me what my problem was did. Did something about my sin, so that I can have a relationship with cards, so that that made a big difference in my personal journey started following Christ, since I was in college, so there was a sense that it wasn't just a subjective experience for you, but actually it was an intellectual one well where you had grown up in a Christian home, but you weren't ready just to say. Oh well, that's what my parents believe. You really intellectually. Hey, come to the conclusion. This makes a lot more sense than these gods around me. Absolutely right yeah, so it wasn't just an automatic choice I was raised Christian, so be a Christian I really. Phase when I rebuilt, and I wasn't sure and I had to personalize my fate. Francis, we're going to need more than one show, so I'm GonNa ask you. You told me how to time. There's a chance you'd be able to stay around I. I want you to deal with one thing before we wrap this up in the and get into another show because we got so much more to dig into, but there's just a part in this really ties it in on this. Does he talk radio in where in Orange County here talking to you twelve hours away? When you came here to study, you were how thirty three thirty three. So you come here at thirty three, you end up being called to be a pastor. Wait I. Get this right. It's crazy. You, end up being called to be pastor of what the first Chinese Church of Irvine. Really I know the difference between Chinese and Indian. What's allow? People, ask me I heard. You're passer. In what Church do you shepherd what jersey, passer and as soon as this tell them the name and they're like they have this blank. Look on their face from. And Indian ending of being the past the English English congregation it's a Chinese church in Irvine and. While I was Talbot I I was doing some visiting preaching here. There are other churches and this church asked me to come and preach a couple of times and. One of the things they liked. Is that I actually work a lot with college? Students and I love talking to students about God and faith, and since we are right next to UCI, Irvine does have hey, would you mind coming and becoming passer and just help us with our university students museum? So that's the that's the hook that brought me to Irvine, but then later on I really enjoyed just working with the Chinese church ended up. Being there for fourteen years only does stuff like that. That's amazing and we're going to dig into some more stuff. We're GONNA talk about Ravi Zachariah. In next show we're GONNA. Talk about what you're doing with. Actually other pastors in India. We're going to find out if is really safe because I just don't feel like it's really that safe for you over there and a bunch of other things, but for now. This is John Bash for church. Hurt them. Join US again, so won't you? And that brings us to the close of another edition of Church hurt saying. Them leaving us as always with a lot to think about. If you'd like to continue the conversation. He'd like to reach out and our guest Dr Francis. Just go to standing stone ministry dot Org. Look him up. BP can pronounce his name. Our host Dr John Bash. She's also shepherd was standing. Stone New nonprofit ministry. Committed to carrying for pastors and Christian leaders at risk leaving their ministry prematurely. Come visit at Church San. is a place for you. To Share Learn so much more. For now remember, church isn't the end of the story. Go, enjoy your and. Paul Roberts Rosie? talkradio Biting come back again.