20 Episode results for "Christina Hoff"

60 -  Femsplainers with Christina Hoff Sommers and Danielle Crittenden

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

1:31:49 hr | 1 year ago

60 - Femsplainers with Christina Hoff Sommers and Danielle Crittenden

"Welcome to the Jordan be Peterson podcast to support this podcast. You can make a donation at Jordan be Peterson dot com slash donate. Or by following the link in the description, Dr Peterson's self development programs, self authoring and understand myself can be found itself, authoring dot com and understand myself dot com. Well through the fem planers. I'm Danielle Crittenden, and I'm Christina Hoff summers. And we are thrilled to have the father of all man's planers. In our studio today. I think he's actually more of a man with spor-. Yes. A man whisper the mad genius behind the intellectual dark, web, whatever. Welcome to the fem Slater's Jordan Peterson. Thank you very much. So delighted to have you end. It's an honor to have you honor. It's an inoto our listeners, we're recording this in front of a live audience at the American Enterprise Institute in Washington DC where Christina is a resident scholar, and they'll be video of the podcast as well. And we will let you know where to find that. When it's ready, and we're also grateful to every week for the use of its recording studio for the podcast and now for an introduction, though. He needs no introduction to people here. But Jordan Peterson is a professor at the university of Toronto and author of many books, and and poster of many fantastic lecturers. His most recent book is I can't keep track of how many languages it's been trans. Slated into the sales just a phenomenally successful book tour. In fact, my first question is really about your tour. You look pretty good for somebody who's visited what one hundred cities in the past use June twenty third. I don't know how you do it and mostly flying. Well, what do you do for fun? What do you ever get to relax in brief moments? And what do you do? Go on Twitter and get home. Go on still qualify that is relaxing. And I try to forestall that temptation as much as possible. Well, I have the automotive bit of time that I can spend with my wife, she traveled with me. And so, you know, we've had we try to take some time to walk around the cities that we're in and see what we can. We're usually not at any given place for more than day or two and they're usually pretty packed up with. Well, whatever is societas with the lecture. And then with press, the publishers usually arrange heard you interviewed in Sweden, you're gonna stop call, and you were had a half an hour to visit the city with your wife, and you loved it. But that you know, it's changing. Breaks where you get them. Well, the thing is is that the the lecture tour is unbelievably positive and a lot of this is is ridiculously positive. You know, like, so if I'm going out on the streets now or in cafes or airports. I meet people all the time. And they're always polite, and they're always happy to see me. And they always have some very touching story to relate, and and then the audiences themselves are very, positively predisposed to whatever it is that we're doing together. And so that makes it a lot easier to stay motivated and to continue right now. I mean, it's demanding because everything's scheduled so tightly, and and I do a different lecture every night every every time I find that amazing because I give lectures that I anguish over everywhere. And then I have another one. You go up without notes. Yeah. Well, I have a large collection of things that I know what how to talk about. And usually what I try to do is to formulate a problem before the leg. So I'm addressing specific problem. Right. And then I can track. How I would set up the argument, and then I walked through it. But part of it's also an attempt to formulate the argument on the fly, you know, to to make the question. What would you say to formulate it more precisely and to make a more precise and engaging answer? And then I can use the audience to judge whether or not that's that's happening. And so it's also a real challenge to do that. So I enjoyed that. And it's a excellent intellectual workout, and I've been recording the lectures, and I've been using fair some of them to write the first draft of the chapters for my next book for books after that. And so. You know, I'm I'm able to maximize the what would you say the utility of doing this at each event, and my wife seems to be particularly well suited to travelling like that she actually enjoys it quite a bit, and and is very stable person. So that's also helpful. So, you know, it's nice to have an extra brain along. Because things are scheduled so tightly that we don't ever have any room for error, as I don't know how intellectually rigorous we plan to be with you today because we know that when you ever you're on one of these platforms. You're talking about your ideas, but on the fence planners, we wanna hear more a little bit more about Jordan Peterson the men desperately indefinitely want to hear about your wife. Tammy. Yeah. And also, you're so well known for your views on men or how your ideas have been taken up so enthusiastic by young men. But we want to talk to about women. Yep. That's good. So but. One of the things you and I share is that we both grew up in Canada. I promised Christine, I would not do my Canadian accent. While you were here. But you grew up in rural Elbert, oh, I grew up in Toronto. And you are what the country's most famous grew now since Marshall mcluhan. But is the fact that you came from Canada have any effect on your views. Do you think has it formed you in any way, she's always looking to the Canadian angle? Well, I think the particular part of Canada, I grew up in probably was formative to some degree. I mean, the town I grew up in was only fifty years old, you know, and the particular part of the world that I grew up in was really the last settled part of the North American prairies was outside of Edmund at four hundred miles north of Edmonton, four hundred miles. Yeah. Yeah. It's ready to short short short kids. Very very stretches up that far north. It's stretches farther north and L Berta than it does anywhere else in the North American continent. And so we were at the tip of viable farming, essentially. And so it was it was a new place, and it was a rather raw place. And it was it was a rather harsh place in many ways, especially because of the winter, and it was fundamentally a working class place, although a prosperous working class place, right because most of the industry there was related to the oil and gas industry on on all the. Was cyclical when things were good working class. People could make a very good living. This is during the strategies through. Fun to be a kid in four hundred miles outside a small town. But I liked it. When I was a kid. I I wouldn't say it was as fun when I was a teenager. But I'm not convinced that the majority of people who are teenagers necessarily have the most wonderful time of it. I think adults often look backwards at the pass through rose colored glasses. I didn't that's what that cartoonist Trudeau accused Reagan of doing continually. Gary under Instituto, Mr. bag. No, no. I'm kidding words for it in your book was teenage wasteland. What you call it. But but it's canadianness how does that formed? You affected you if at all maybe it didn't. It's hard to say. I mean, I've lived in lots of different parts of Canada and Canada's quite different. I lived in well Hilbert for a while. And it had this particular flavor of existence. I mean mostly in Fairview. I was striving to leave and to move ahead. Let's say or to move. Hesitate say up somewhere different somewhere more urban. But that's the case with many people. I mean, the small towns all across the west in the US and Canada are dying. They're down to nothing because everyone's moved to the cities. I lived in Montreal for a good while and that was interesting because it was a very very different culture was a culture that was to some degree stratified by language by class. None of that was true in Alberta. Because it was so new that there's no class structure. So that was quite interesting. Right. You worked what I loved. I pulled a passage because I think as you say people are born in small places everywhere and someone Aleve and some don't you said I wanted to be elsewhere. I wasn't the only one everyone who eventually left the Fairview. I grew up new they were leaving by the age of twelve I knew and my wife who grew up with me on the same stream, you what was that thing? What would you call that? What's the thing that makes you wanna leave and and set you off because you point out. There was no class system. Education was. Deep in Canada companion it wasn't. It wasn't cost. That was talking. You were from a middle class you where my father was a teacher. And my mother was a librarian will she had trained his nurse. So we had a comfortable. I would say suburban lifestyle essentially moderate middle class suburban lifestyle. That's what Fairview looked like it looked like a suburb that was built mostly in the night say between the nineteen fifties and the nineteen seventies the young Jordan, and then young Tammy, and you'll have to tell us that story how you've been but wanted wanted more. Well, you know, I think that's one thing that is different to some degree about class, my father, and my mother had both left towns they were from and they were forward future looking people, and, you know, most of my friends who quit school and who didn't attend university. They didn't have. They didn't have that sense. I would say that more developed sense of a world outside of what they knew. And the other thing is that my father took us on long trips. When I was a kid he was a teacher. And so he had summer holidays, and we drove all over western Canada down into the US long, driving trips thousands of miles, and that also gave us the sense that the world was a bigger place. But I knew way before I was twelve I believe that I was off at least two university. And I think generally in your family, if you're liable to go to university, people don't even really talk about it. It's just a given that that's what's going to happen. It's it's something that you take in with every breath, almost it's it's an it's often unspoken expectation, and maybe people make casual reference like well when you go to college, but it's not like there's a question about it. Whereas if you're from a working class background, especially if your family hasn't pursued. Post-secondary education that isn't in the realm of unspoken or spoken expectation, and it wasn't like lots of my friends, including many of them who dropped out before they hit high school. They weren't by. They were by no means the dentist people in the class. Like, they were plenty smart, but they weren't oriented towards the idea of of pursuing a career that that involved, intellectual. What intellectual engagement wasn't in their world view. And when you hear people on the let's say more socialist end of the distribution talk about barriers to education. They are often talk about cost and sometimes cost is a barrier and it's warmer than areas day. Yeah. And it's more of a bear. Although there's still plenty community colleges state colleges where you can get educated for a perfectly reasonable amount of money. But for my friends was never a reason that money was never reason they didn't pursue post secondary education. It was more like. A truncated view of time. I would say, you know, there was more of an emphasis on the here. And now on that. And there were jobs. The plenty I there was also doubt. Yeah. And well paying jobs. It wasn't obvious that you were in better shape. Economically to go to university. Word especially if you were doing something like working on the oil rig. Right, right. But you know, that was rough cold harsh work, and it wasn't wasn't once you had an in you could stay employed, but it wasn't that easy to land an entry level job. And so yeah. Well, it was wise for lots of working class people to to work in those jobs because they were unbelievably lucrative so and they should have been because they were very difficult and dangerous and frigid cold and rough. So it's not like people didn't earn your money. We'll just tell us quickly. How you met your wife? You were you met when you were seven or eight or three and create three. Yeah. And you did you fall in love with her. In grade. Three a great three. Yeah. Was it mutual? Not in the beginning. Wouldn't admit it was there were lots of the boys. Ingred three were in love with her little crew guys that were perfectly willing to follow her around and she was perfectly willing to exploit that. She's very good at it. Yeah. She was very popular. So wonderfully you met as children there. We were friends for a long time we used to play chess together and croquet and she's vicious croquet player. She would I don't know if you've ever played croquet. But if it's your balls touch than you can stand on, yours, whack it. And then the other person's ball will. Oh, she did vanish off into the stratosphere. And she liked to knock it all the down the street, and then she'd laugh, and so she she always had a good sense of good vicious sense of humor. It's one of the things actually admire about my wife when when when we've had her verbal disputes, which have certainly happened. She can string together a sequence of insults that so care racing. You have to laugh. Did she have brothers? She did she has a brother much older eight eight years older nowadays because I wanted peaceful person and brothers get can get along with guys because the they show love and affection by insults in jabs jeers. And if I had brother, and I started learned, okay? But if you don't have others girls, so rude. That's so she was. Yeah. Well, she she she has a naturally they naturally twist. She and her father is quite sharp witted. And and he was a real town character. He's still alive. He was a real character in the tone real, hyper extrovert, everybody knew him, and he had a pretty good width on them. And she had some of that. Well, it still does have some of that. So she was a side from her acerbic humor and her ability to wack balls. And I just don't want to go further on that description that many. Many things that tells us about you. What else what else attract? I mean, you've known her pretty much your whole life. So some of the other qualities that not just attracted you. But enable you to sustain I mean, I think every young person in this room will want to know, and maybe there isn't one. But what's the secret? What's it like to be with someone that long? How do you sustain that? I think if you're fortunate some of its some of its good fortune when I would say, this is true. I've watched people in the relationships, you know, personally for a long time. But also as a professional because I've done a lot of clinical counseling. And I mean, there's some things that that need to be a given about the relationship. I would say it doesn't hurt to find the other person very attractive, you know. And that's a mysterious thing. We're not exactly sure what it is. That produces. Let's say chemistry between people although chemistry is definitely part of what produces it. There's subtle things that attract people to one another that are way below the level of consciousness. So for example, women don't. Like, the older of men who have RH blood factors who if they had children with would be likely to produce a stillborn infant. Well, that's definitely a category match dot com. Right. Right. Well, it's so strange though because. How do you even know? Well, that's a good question. And you know, you know, by older apparently. And so there's wearing Cologne. About then it would depend on what type of Columbia are. What was the smell is very strange sense. And it's very deeply tied to very profound emotions, including memory. And so you find people attractive for reasons that you can't always determined. And so so that that was part of it. I mean, I've always found her very attractive and that continues and I liked her combativeness. Like, I think that there's you want someone I think in a relationship that you can Spar with and it's partly because. You have heart problems to solve. And if the person that you're with isn't willing to put forward their opinion. Then you only have half the cognitive power that you would otherwise have now. And hopefully, you find someone who's interestingly different from you like not so different that, you can't communicate and you have to be careful of that. But interestingly different, and then hopefully, they have the ability and the will to express their opinion. And then all done, it's you know. Then your interest stays heightened. And there has to be that tension in a relationship people think well, I want to get along perfectly with my partner. And it's like, no, you probably don't you just get bored. Then you'd go looking for trouble. And so you want a little bit of trouble in the relationship in a little bit of mystery and a little bit of combativeness, and and the ability to exchange opinions forthrightly, and and I trust her which is a huge element. I mean when we finally did decide to get together permanently. We're both in our later twenties. And you know, one of the things that I had learned by that point and insisted to her about was that we had to tell each other the truth and she took to that. Poll heartedly and forbidden around for worse because truce can be harsh. Does that include like this is how I make? Yeah. Well, the truthful answer that is I don't answer questions that are likely to get in trouble. So I have a son who will answer honestly, and it's infuriating. But then I realized if you want the truth chock to Tampa. Well, that's the thing. You know, it's useful to know tooth is empowering truth. Tellers are charismatic any actually both my sons are like brutally honest which is disconcerting, but it can see that it made them very formidable and people trust them, and the friendships and just it gives the move and you've written a lot about this. Well, if I tell my wife that she looks good in an outfit. She knows that. I mean. Yeah. And so there's some utility in that, and then if you're silent and say, I don't answer questions that she she goes Shane, well, sometimes sometimes, you know, she'll say do you like this all tell her, I don't, and you know. And certainly make her happy in the moment. But, but if I do say like she knows that I mean in, and you know, I actually liked her sense of style a lot. So it turns out that ninety percent of the time. It's pretty easy for me to say, look, I think you look great at mean it, and you know, she's a fairly harsh standard-bearer to like, she's she's insisted that I stay in whatever reasonable physical shape by happen to be in. That was that was something that she's very demanding of. And I would say it's the same from my side. And we've been good at negotiating, which is you know, what do you want from partner fundamentally what what do you want need? I mean, the first thing is is that well, hopefully, you said you're blessed with the fact that you find each other attractive, and I think it's very difficult for the relationship too. Begin or proceed or sustain itself without that? But having that then what you want while you want someone that you can trust you want someone that you can build a view of future with and you want someone that you can negotiate with and that's very hard to negotiate with people because they have to tell you what they think they have to know what they want or figure it out. They have to tell you what they want. They have to be satisfied when they get what they want which is also very difficult thing to manage and you have to continually update that because your life goes through different stages and attraction Wayne's as we all know it our digital. I'm not fatally necessarily for yourself. But but no, but you will go. I mean, you will not be twenty-five forever. So so that that has to be reading Goshi. Yeah. Well, and you have to work at that too. And that's something that people also don't understand because they tend to think that. Well, the that all romantic interactions should be spontaneous. It's like, well, if that's your theory, then you might as well just give up right now, if you're going to get married because that like, the only reason you can think that is because you don't have enough responsibility to make romantic entanglement virtually impossible. And what happens when you're married, especially when you have little kids is that. And you both have job. Let's say is you're so busy that the probability that you're going to find time for spontaneous mutual interaction is decreases to zero and so if that's what you're hoping for then you're never going to have it. And so what you have to do is you have to make time for each other. And you know, if you're dating when you're establishing a relationship. Well, you put some effort into it. You know, you decide that you're going to go out for dinner, and you dress up to some degree, and you try to present yourself to each other in some half lease mutually acceptable manner. And you hope that there's going to be a positive consequence of that that you're gonna find each other attractive? But then people somehow think that once they're married that the same amount of effort isn't necessary, and that's wrong. I would say more effort is necessary on the same front, and you have to think it through. It's like, you know, if you don't wanna be bitter about the intimate element of your relationship. How much time do you have to spend together each week? And my my rule of thumb sort of derived from clinical observations is that you need to spend ninety minutes a week with your partner talking. And that means you're telling each other about your life and staying in touch, you know, so that you each know what the other is up to and you're discussing what needs to be done to keep the household running smoothly, and you're laying out some mutually acceptable vision of how the next week or the next month's are going to go together. Right. So that that keeps your narratives locked together like the strands in a rope you need that for ninety minutes or you drift apart and you need to spend intimate time together. Least once a week and probably more like twice and that has to be negotiated and if you don't go she ate it. And if you don't make it a priority, then it won't happen. You know likelihood and then well, well, then you don't have it, and that's a catastrophe because there's not that many things in life that are intrinsically. What would you say engaging in meaningful and pleasurable and also bonding all of that? And if you let that go then well part of you dies and part of the relationship dies. And well, then there's always the possibility of becoming attracted by alternative attachments, which which you would do if you had any spirit left. Right. I mean, that's the thing is if well if you're not if you're if your relationship at home is entirely unsatisfying sexually what are you supposed to do with that nothing is supposed to just bear it? I mean in one way the answer is yes because it's your marriage. But another way is well what that's all the fight. You've got an you. You're going to just let the erotic element. Of your life die and accept everything that goes along with that because you're not willing to cause a bit of trouble to ensure that it's maintained and we're not very good at thinking these things through consciously. I mean, people are bad at negotiating period as far as I can tell. But they're particularly about it. Go shooting things that are deeply private how much do you want your partner to know about you? Anyways. It takes a lot of trust to have a real conversation about what you need and want. Now, you have. In the press people read that you are you have a following of young men, and I went to hear your lecture in Washington DC. And there were a lot of women there and your book, I personal men. Don't buy books that often compared to women. So I'm presuming you have a lot of female readers. I've found Danielle and I found it completely reversible and wasn't a ribbon for men. No. What a delusional desire on the part of the radical leftists that the only people that could possibly be attracted to me are angry men. Exciting bid be better if they are angry young white men, you know, then that fits the narrative. You have a diverse audience diverse following including many women, and they're also not particularly angry. I mean. I've toured the fusing the anchor that's the point of your book is stopping stopping resentful. Right while resentment is that that's absolutely crippling. Right. Resentment just zen moment. Deceit arrogance. That's part of I'm writing another book and one of the rules is don't allow yourself to become thankful resentful. Hateful deceitful and era. Ghent things together could be read if you just. Well, that's supposed to be good thing. So yeah, I mean, there's been two hundred and fifty thousand people as I said come to the lectures, and there hasn't been a single negative incident. Not once when I find fascinating is that I found you early on. I said I had no idea that was like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid like who is that guy. Who is that guy like you were pretty good, and we were covering a lot of the same topics later on. Wow. And then I found out who you were. What is astonishing to me is that there's this amazing just split between the positivity of your audience and diversity of your audience. The. The intellectual content of your message. And then you get with a snarky journalist with an agenda, and I'm not mentioning names. But this this. No, no. This this young woman from G Q, and it was just be on. So. And it was going to be my lady got four. We don't want to blame the BBC was generous eight, and then I and she seemed like often she seemed intelligent and capable of insight up to a point. But it's almost as if something gets seized her mind and show, you something had something had her you. I think people. Probably it can be a poly says that a whole generation some of our most talented young women are incapable because of this. I thought maybe you mean urges just an openness to she couldn't in. You're saying completely interesting fascinating original things, even to me who studied these topics and. Wow. And north was quite the day. So I went to Baltimore Houston. I get your everyone else. Makes me think a lot that day because I went there, and I had to go out of my way to do it not that I'm complaining, but there's a reason for saying that, you know. So I go there and Baltimore. Yeah. Well, I I was talking in Baltimore. Okay. So so I think we're and I showed up to the to the hotel room where this was all occurring. And you know, what you expect generally speaking, even from journalists who aren't you know, who are more of the attack dog variety, or who may be aren't positively predisposed to you ideologically? Or personally, you expect a certain modicum of professional politeness, right? Because while you don't have to be there, and you came and you accepted, an invitation and all of that. And so even with the channel four journalists, Cathy Newman, she was quite polite and and forthcoming in the in the green room before the interview. So she would have had at least that professional persona, which is it's not nothing, right. There's something to be said for for going through the motions professionally and inappropriate manner. But when I walked into the hotel room in Baltimore, it was obvious that this interviewer had already made up her mind about one hundred percent. And that she was absolutely, you know, negativity predisposed to me with a personal animus an animist is exactly the right word. There was about a half an hour photography session because it was cheap Q. And so I was in that atmosphere the photographers refined. I was in that atmosphere for about forty five minutes before we started to talk part of the reason that I'm so. I'm not as calm during that interview. As I usually am I'm little bit harsher, and the reason for that is that, you know, it just started off instantly combative, and and what I what I should have done. See it's very very difficult to be awake enough to do these things properly, and and they interview progressed fine. Although by the end of it, I thought that I had maybe done enough interviews for a while. Because I didn't think I had regulated my temper as well during that interview as I might have I will shed. Well, I assume it's you were getting and then she brought up a question about anger, and I just saw you kind of just and then after that it was smooth sailing. Well, that's good because it was touch and go, you know, and I thought boy, you know, maybe you're running out of patience. Maybe, you know, maybe it's time to dial back on the interviews because I've had many interviews like that. And they're very I find them like, and it takes me like three days to recover. And then you. Start thinking yourself like what I should have said, I shouldn't have that. And I drive myself, man. No. You did very well. But it's so interesting that what it told me was how parochial she was. And she lives in her own little world as more little bit about the ideology of our time and gosh, you encounter this everywhere. And I used to write about this wisely. I would I would encounter it. I mean, I think part of the issue is that you will acknowledge that there are differences between the sexes. That seems to be. I know that's a hell of a heresy Baresi because when I was reading your book, there's nothing about it that is Anti-female affecting you do a lot of examination of the Adam and eve story, and you have this wonderful passage about like atom being the originally aggrieved man who throws a woman under the bed. Know at all the a return fold. You do you maters hiding so funny? So. So there's nothing in this. And the the rules such as they are. You know, they seem very commonsensical. They could apply to anyone. So is that a fair surmise of y you get so attacked the just the very fact that you're willing to speak about the sexes as being not unequal, but different equal. Yeah. Well, I would say that that's part of it because there's a threat there. So one of the things that happened when I was in Scandinavia, I just wrote a call him about this actually was interesting being in Scandinavia, especially in Sweden because they've pushed the equality of opportunity doctrine farther than any other country. They invented it. It don't start at them in the like in the UN and the original charter the Swedes were there. And they they've never given. No, no. And so and the week that I was there was the same week that two articles were published on gender differences in in temperament and in interest and the biggest sex differences that we know of that aren't morphological are in interest. So women are more interested in people by large and men are more interested in things by large and the difference is actually large it's one standard deviation. And so that means if you're. A man you would have to be more interested in people than eighty five percent of men to be as interested as fifty percent of women. And if you're a woman you'd have to be more interested in things than eighty five percent of women to be as interested as the fiftieth percentile male. So the difference is actually quite substantial, and it's certainly large enough to drive occupational choice differences. And which is explains a lot of configuration of people in the word. Absolutely. Well, and you know, we're approach approaching parody in terms of workplace overall workplace distribution women, but there's massive differences in occupational choice. Like, it's very interesting, for example, to go to the website of the US Labor Department and look at male and female dominated industries, and there's the top ten male. Dominated industries have basically zero women in them people. Rick players being one of the people there people zones according to. Meal poly, you find a lot of men in the people freeze up. Women. Are you ask a group of women and men would you rather spend the next three weeks taking part of machine and putting it together or helping a group of people were out their problems, and the pool of people who want to do it's just far more men than we've been there's more men and women dominated industries than there are women and men dominated industries at the extreme. So that's like nurse nursing. Yeah. Way more male, nurses. Layers. I've studied these male, nurses, and they already been gender activists are upset because they earn more than women and a professor of nursing at university of Pennsylvania tried to find out why. Found out they immediately find out. What's the best paying field sub-field? So they go into like nurse anesthesiology pays a lot more the minner there and disproportionate number. And they're willing to work in cr- insane hours. They're far more willing to moon. Pharrell phone with with gender differences. Is that men are more willing to move millionaire more willing? Hours. Yup. They're more willing to work outside. They're more willing to take on dangerous tasks, they're more likely to work in scalable industries. So like, you can't scale personal care. It's really it's very very difficult. They're much less likely to work part time, if they have small businesses they're much more likely to work fulltime in the small business rather than this than part time. I mean women have the reasons to work part time and Farrell also pointed out that if you work ten percent longer hours you make forty percent more money in non linear, non linear return on overtime. That's something. That's really useful. To know. You know? Interview career push it to an employer have somewhat also marks you out. You know, like if you have ten employees, and they're all doing a reasonable job. Let's say, but one of them is working in extra half an hour a day or forty five minutes a day, and you can observe that every day then that gives them an edge with regards to potential promotion, and so and return on those edges is non linear. And so anyway, so I went to Scandinavian, and it was the same week that two studies were released showing what had already been established beyond a shadow of a doubt that the personality differences between men and women and the differences in interest as well, actually, get bigger as your society gets richer, and as it gets more egalitarian and not just a little bit either. That's the other thing. That's so interesting. Is you might think well, the effect is it's the opposite of what the social construction ists would predict first of all. So that's the first thing to point out. It's not only that they're hypothesis wasn't supported it was decidedly refuted. And none of them have come to terms with that. And and it's not a small affect the difference between personality between men and women in Scandinavia is a lot larger than it is non egalitarian contract and rural but's that's true in the United States, the richer. The democratic your household demographic your household, the more likely the woman is to take time out and be at home with the right to go forward. If you can afford to do and she can afford to major in odd low paying fields like I dunno feminists dance therapy. The other the other thing you see to one of the things. That's also interesting. I think is that there's this idea that may that marriage is a patriarchal institution, that's primarily put there for the for the utility of the of the male and think well, like, I think that's complete bloody rubbish that I don't think there's any evidence to support it at all. But I think the best counter evidences that. Well, if that's the case, then rich people shouldn't be getting married because they don't have to oppress themselves. But the truth is a matter is is that the higher your demographic position, the more likely you are to be married. So marriage is falling apart among the more likely, the wife is staying home. And but not I mean, she has all sorts of pursuits. But she's not. Well, there's an old saying anyone any woman who marries for money earns it. Let's pause there for a quick break. Hey, christina. How's your holiday shopping going on at that stage where I'm trying to figure out gifts for a lot of people whose tastes I don't know. And don't understand including my two grown up sons the same, but I can give you a secret Santa tiff. It's called sent bird, of course, set bird. Yes, centered is our luxury fragrance subscription service, which allows recipients to choose a new Cologne or perfume every month from over four hundred and fifty designer brands you get generous. 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S C E N T bird dot com slash fem splaine and use our code fence playing for fifty percents off your first month. I might get one for my little dog is to she could use a nice. We're talking to Jordan Peterson the author of twelve rules for life an antidote for chaos and to the New York Times has called the most influential public intellectual in the world right now. But now let it just okay. This is where you might get in a little trouble. Because in your book, you've call men. Order and women chaos, and you say order the known appears symbolically associated with masculinity chaos. The eternal feminine is also the crushing force of sexual select what's up with that. Yeah. We chaotic. Men and women that are order in chaos. It's masculinity and femininity symbolically. And so what's happened fundamentally is that were our brains are wired for social cognition. So we're not natural. Scientists were natural sociologists that might be better. Even though I shudder to think that that might be true. Especially even this may be well, that's it. Okay. Figuring or maybe ring. Or or or maybe we're more. We're more naturally people who observe through the lens of fiction, and that what we see is the world has characterized and the world, obviously is made out of men and women and children, and those seem to be our fundamental cognitive categories masculinity femininity, and and and and then the category of children and those categories have expanded to take on connotations outside of of pure person perception, and so, you know, it's for this reason that if you go to a movie, and the maybe it's a Disney animated movie, and I like to talk about those because they draw on a very deep symbolic. Well, it's perfectly reasonable to see a witch that lives in a swamp because those go together like it makes sense, you know, which doesn't live in gleaming chrome high-rise. She lives in a slum because that's maybe quarter. Broom, I think she could. Well, that's it. We I would with a high-rise it'd be better for that could take off take off better. But there are categories of symbolic association that are natural to the way we think and the fundamental elements of those categories seem to be gendered. And so this is partly why make reference to Taoism, for example. So for the Taoists the world is made out of chaos and order and chaos is the domain that you don't understand and that emerges unpredictably, but also the domain from which new forms emerge. Right because it's from novelty that the new emerges, and I think the fundamentalists association between femininity is chaos is the association between what's unexpected inaugural. And what's new because new forms emerged from chaos, and it's not that chaos is is bad. In order is good that that's both have their policies. Both have their virtues. Yes, what you're looking for. And this is this is the book concentrates on above all that you're looking constantly to find the balance between those two. So for example, formerly speaking the domain of order is that place that you are win. What you're doing is producing the results that you want to have produced. So imagine imagine think about the preconditions for not being anxious. Okay. So the preconditions are that you're constantly making predictions about what's going to happen next? And those predictions are tied tightly to your behavioral output, so you act in a certain way, and you presume that a certain thing is going to happen. And if your actions produce the results that you desire, then you assume that you know, where you are. And you know, what you're doing and that your plan is intact. And that the environment is secure and that keeps your anxiety under control. That's order. And then, you know, maybe you're at a party, and you don't know anybody, and you tell a joke and everybody looks at you like. What you said was not only not funny, but also downright offensive. And then all of a sudden, you've moved from the domain of order into the domain of chaos because you thought you were somewhere, and you thought you were someone and you thought you were with people that were of a certain type, and you got all that wrong. And so the suggesting it is going to be the woman who says I find that really offend. I'm suggesting is about probably is never mind, but women are also more sensitive today. Give emotion. So there is some slightly higher probability that that might be the case. But then I think women are also associated at least in men's imaginations with nature, which is part of the chaotic domain say as opposed to culture because they're sexually selective. So you think what is nature we have that as a cognitive category. Right. We think of the natural world, we think of nature versus culture, it's a fundamental opposition. What is nature? Well, nature is trees and landscapes and animals and all of that. But that isn't what nature fundamentally is nature fundamentally is that which selects from a genetic perspective, that's nature. That's the fundamental definition of nature. And it is the case that human females are sexually selective, and it's a major component of human behavior. So the. The evolutionary theory. Roughly speaking is that the reason we diverged from chimpanzees eight million years ago seven million years ago is at least in part because of the differences between sexual selectivity between female, humans and female, chimpanzees female chimpanzees are more likely to have offspring from dominant males, but it's not because of their sexual selectivity. So a female chimpanzee has periods of fertility that are marked by physical by observable physiological changes not the case with human females human female automation is is concealed. So that's a very profound biological difference between human females and chimpanzees and the chimpanzee females will mate with any male, but the dominant males chased the subordinate males away but human females are sexually selective. And so, and it's not trivial fact so you have twice as many, female and. Sisters as male ancestors. You think well how can that be? Well, imagine that on average every single human female has had one child throughout the entire course of history, which is approximately correct, by the way, then imagine that half of the man had zero and the other half had to. Okay. And that's roughly the case so half of males. Historically, speaking have been reproductive disasters. And the reason for that is because of female sexual selectivity. So it is actually the case that female, humans are nature. It's not only that they're that. They're associated with nature symbolically as far as reproduction is concerned. They are the force of nature that does the selection and so their nature in the most fundamental way. And there is a chaotic element of that at least in relationship to men and also in relationship to women because a lot of the female on female competition is competition that's chaotic for the right to be sexually selective. Right. Not only with regards to man, which drives a lot of politicking. But also in relationship to each other because part of what human females do is jockey for position in the female dominance hierarchy for the top position. Which is the woman who gets to be most sexually selective. And so that drove. Female female competition, and it's different dynamic. There's there's similarities between female female competition and male male competition, but there are also differences and their pronounced so men, for example, while men are more likely to compute compete for socioeconomic status, and that's partly because that drives female may choice. So the correlation for men between socioeconomic status and sexual success is about point six and for women. It's zero. Zero. In fact, it's actually slightly negative you so and that's a huge difference between men and women. I know that you knew the anthropologists Sarah Hertie, HR D Y, an and she's like my favorite feminist theorist. Although is she would say, I'm a theorist who happens to be a feminist, but she studied primate behavior, and she watched she looked at the women very care the females and very carefully and looked at it chimpanzees and gazelles and found that the female initially like male Primatology would look and say, oh, the females the males are dominant the females are so cooperative. She looked more carefully. And so the females weren't exactly cooperative like they would pass around their infant's their baby whatever they were and would find an and so the male Primatology say, oh, they're they're so kind and caring. She found out. When it was not your it was not hers. They would take little tufts of hair wouldn't come out or do something to the eyes and the baby would like be injured and she saw all those violence, but it's really true in their status differentiation. Yeah. So much more likely that will happen when a higher status female is taking care of lower status. Infant exactly, and she said, the great tragedy will not tragedy shit the reality of our species. In fact, the subtitle book is the woman who never evolved, we didn't evolve for niceness and cooperation there's immense competition, and we Cording to her. We are it's indelibly marked in our nature to compete for the dominant males man, no doubt about that. There's an so not seems to cross culturally as well that doesn't fly little bit in the morning Gila -tarian societies Yahoo instead of being exaggerated. It does flatten to some degree. So you could imagine that there's a biological component. And a cultural component both in in that case, if you modify the cultural component, then that seems to decrease the overall so like let me be more clear about this women are less prone to mate up across an up status hierarchies in Scandinavia than they are unless he Guillotiere in countries, but they're still prone to do it. So worldwide, for example, women young women find men who were about four years older than them maximally attractive, and they tend to mate across an up status hierarchies. And so one of the consequences of that. For example, is that as women have entered the workforce they've actually driven inequality because rich women will only marry rich men men as rich as them or Richard. Whereas rich men will marry women who are poor but women won't. And so what that means is it's another factor, that's pooling wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer people. This is sorted of Nateing now, and you just find someone. With your background in. Whereas doctor might have once married his secretary now Mary's another doctor can I ask then stepping a little bit back from primates as well. How does this selection work in the area of swiping, right and left? How what is your reaction to the way young people today? That's a good. I was really hoping we'd get into that. You were very into the monkeys. So I didn't want him to rep. Well, I should close off the Scandinavian discussion just by pointing out. And this is something that the Scandinavians are really going to have to wrestle with is that if you institute effective policies to promote equality of opportunity, which the Scandinavians have done you're going to produce some equality. So like a fifty fifty distribution of men and women in the workplace, but you're also going to exacerbate certain kinds of inequality, and you can't get out of that. So you cannot have equality of opportunity and equality vote. Come together, they don't work together and equality of outcome. Essentially quality of all come doctrine, which is often described with the code word equity is that at every level of every occupation. The people have to be represented by the same number that they're represented at the. Population. So if it's not fifty fifty men and women at each inning Charkhi patients and in each strata at each occupation. Then that sort of prima-facie evidence for discrimination for systemic discrimination. It's like, Nope. Sorry. You have to factor in choice choice actually turns out to be a very important determinant. And as the society gets flatter and flatter choice becomes a more important, a more and more important determinant. And so so what that essentially means is that the most radical end of the left wing, political agenda is logically impossible. Doc, and it's impossible for a variety of other reasons, and they should look at the data. I mean, it's just a cliche now of a group of activists. And they'll say, oh, well, we need. In order for women to achieve equality. We need government funded daycare, and we need on. They have it in Sweden, Sweden, whose fewer women in managerial levels. American women are ahead. In fact, now they have they have quotas over there. So they need female CEOs. And when the bills on board hasn't made any difference every bringing in minimum American women because we're so much further ahead to no difference in the distribution of men and women lower in the it's called the Nordic paradox and say you guys are so wonky I want to get it back. That's good. We all want to get back. I wanted to get back to monkeys. I was thinking this morning about I was talking to a variety of political types. And we were talking about this morning. Yeah. Inducing it hard to believe believe. No, I'm not. I'm not telling you a bunch of Republicans here I've been talking to Democrats as well. But it was mostly Republicans here, and we were talking about abortion. And I made a case that that's really not a very productive discussion because you're talking about a problem way too late in the sequence of problems. So I'm by the time the discussion starts to be about abortion. There's fifty problems that have emerged that no one has addressed. And some of those problems are the fundamental problem is how human beings should regulate their sexual behavior. And that's a big problem. And you think well, and there's an interesting thing that's happening because you know, the people on the right would say, well, that's easy is like don't sleep around. And get married and have sex with your marital partner and that solve the problem. So there's strictures on sexual behavior, and those would be the traditional ones, and what you see on the left is that there's this weird paradoxical demand. Let's say. That people should be allowed to express their sexuality in any manner that they choose whenever they want. But that sex is so dangerous that it has to be carefully regulated at every single stage of the interaction. And so you know, that many state legislatures have now followed the example of university campuses and put in a -firmative consent legislation. So that every move you make towards physical intimacy has to be preceded by the stance of a verbal contract, essentially, it's like, well, can I take your hand? Yes. You actually from what I understand you actually have to say, yes, like nodding is not sufficient. And so and so each stage has to be a has to be preceded by affirmative consent and. You know, which which well, I won't I won't say anything about. Yeah. I will absurd. It's absurd to assume that that's how human intimate relationships are supposed to proceed, and then you have complicated laws emerging. That are part of that that for example. This is the case in California as I understand it is that you cannot give consent. If you're in talks equated. Okay. So you think about that? It's like, well, what does that mean? It means it like a lot of sex is been illegal for a long time, including marital marital. It's next to me on my honeymoon. Okay. Well, that he's thinking it seems seems to me it seems to me. No. It seems to me to mean, the California legislation that if you have sex with your wife or husband, and either of you is intoxicated, then you're either one of you or both is guilty of rape. That's what it looks like to me. Actually, I was in a debate a few years ago at the university of Virginia law school, and I turned to my debate partner. Instead. So if what you're saying is, right. Two people can rape one another right? She said, yes. And I thought oh shit. I mean, how can that be? Well, that's the question. Well, okay. So then I would say, well, it's interesting because I think that a lot of this confusion has emerged fundamentally as a consequence of the birth control pill. So because he got to think situationally before you think ideologically or psychologically, it's like. It seems to me that the twentieth century will be remembered for the hydrogen bomb the transistor and the birth control pill, and those are unbelievably radical technological innovations. And maybe the most we are. But my fair lady. Dependent on the transistor. You know, because spawned all that so that that's the big technological innovation that spawned out of the three. I would say the the birth control pill is probably the bigger hydrogen bomb. So and because it it changed the fundamental biological nature of women and men and because it gave women for the first time in biological history. The the option of choosing their Representative status, and and that's that's we like that abs-. Well, yes, and no like, yes, we like it. But it's not something that's come without a tremendous. Complexity a fellow can reading line. No, no, you'll find him interesting. Because as he writes about that, I'm I'm not I'm not making a case for the birth control pill by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm pointing at its complexity and so because one of the questions is once you can regulate your reproductive function. What attitude should you have toward sex and one answer might be the more of it under the more varied circumstances. The better because why not and I would say that was actually part of the attitude that emerged in the aftermath of the birth control pill in the nineteen sixties. Right. And it was it was a reasonable response in some sense because it's such a cataclysmic change that you don't know what it implies. Well, what's the consequence of that? Well, first of all people aren't reliable enough to use birth control in an entirely reliable manner. So even though it can work at near. Percents officiency you have to take it expert narrowly regularly in a disciplined manner for that to work. And so there was still the problem of unwanted pregnancy. Let's say, and then there was the problem of the pl- proliferation of sexual epidemics, and that culminated in aids which could easily wiped all of us out, but didn't but there's other sexual ethics that could have had the same effect. But we've we've been fortunate enough to escape them. And and then and then more recently there's been this weird inversion, especially on the radical left. That points to the reemergence of something like a set of sexual taboos. You know, like, I think the idea that sex is casual and that it's a form of entertainment is I think it's an absolutely preposterous idea. I think that. It's it's psychologically shallow beyond belief to hold that. As a core. Proposition because it forces you to first of all if if it's repetitive sex with multiple partners it forces you to treat people as if they're interchangeable, and I don't see how that's good for you, psychologically, or for the people that you're using interchangeably. It implies that you can divorce sexuality from play from the desire for for a relationship from emotional fragility from love from family from responsibility. All of those things that are part and parcel of everyone. And I don't think you can. And I don't think people's experience indicates that you can and especially on the emotional front. And I think that's partly what's driving, and there's also a residual sense that there's something about sex that's fundamentally dangerous, and maybe it's dangerous emotionally. And personally. And maybe it's dangerous socially, and psychologically, which most certainly is. Because it's a powerful force. And the way the left is reacting to that is by insisting that all forms of sexual behavior are valid, and and and that it's reasonable to manifest all of them. But that it's simple Tena sleep so dangerous that absolutely every aspect of it has to be state regulated and in an increasingly Jakonen form. And so I think what needs to happen is that the left and the right to get together. And have like a real discussion about what constitutes fell and sexual morality. And that's the conversation. You have to have way before you worry about solving the abortion debate, which you know, is very divisive and very and very intractable. What one of the things we talked about actually just last week on the podcast is this cover story in the Atlantic about the sexual recession among young people that despite the advent of the birth control pill abortion is is going down. There's there's lack sec there's is going to look up fewer Hans, and what have you can't looked into that worry about on that? Well, if you raise the cost of something you decrease its prevalence. You know, I think that it's it seems to be dangerous now too. Well. I kind of think that it's also a reflection of the same thing that Bloomberg reported on just a few days ago. They said that across businesses men are thinking, I'm not spending any time with a single woman isn't associated with me in some formal manner. Like, my wife, I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to mentor. Young women. I'm not going to be in a room alone with them because I could face career annihilation instantly. They're frightened young when Kate Julian's that's part of it. But we can over exaggerate the part, I mean, anxiety and depression is going up amongst both young men and young women suicide is going up that it's not just a. Most people I think are not we're talking about an elite demographic who is into the consent and political correctness and work with this is across the board, and it's global it's it's happening even in Sweden. It's really happening in Japan and Japan. Exactly. So so weird things that speaks to an especially in Japan. They have people especially young men have given up on intimacy and having sex is actually I mean that having too much trouble sex robots. Right. Right. Right. Right. Well, Christian there's pornography news congressman zero Ritz allow for pornography that that men and women will sort of separate that from their actual. Secondly, being we we're seeing a whole I guess collapse of intimacy let alone sex, and I don't think that's just explained by the political nature. So. I'd be interested in your thoughts. Yeah. Well, I don't know that I don't know the literature on the decline in sexual activity. Well enough to know if it's fell at a reliable. But I mean, I think that you know, in a stable society, you take lots of things for granted, you take you take the fact that men and women are going to be sexually attracted to one another for granted. And even though it's more fragile than it appears. It's suppressed more easily than you might think. And you take the idea that men and women are going to move together towards the establishment of long-term intimate relationships for granted. But that's partly because you don't understand what invisible preconditions exist to make that self evident. You know, and when those invisible preconditions are disrupted by rapid technological or sociological change, then things shift underneath you. And you don't know why a lot of it is traced to the advent of the smartphone, especially in the generation Z that that Kate was explaining this to us that you could see it was broadband internet and the smartphone that led to this increasing fall off of relationships and you'll maybe the abstract is more interesting than when I saw you see that. I want to know the truth. Have you ever been with somebody who loved them fascinating? And all that. But you really wanted to get back to your smartphone. Has it ever happened? All the time. It happens to me. Known to have his during our podcast. I know I'm researched very very addictive, very addictive them. You know, I read the other day that they're imploring. They are kind of going together. The preferred method of interpersonal communication between young people now is testing rather than face face communication, right and the swiping that apes doa vats. That's that's that's a very interesting topic to the Tinder phenomenon that's because that that's an also a major technological revolution. Because what it's done. I would say for the first time is reduce the cost of rejection two males two zero because it hides it. You don't wanna people you ever hear from our people who have rejected you, although although they true. But there was one man who had to make three hundred he he actually tallied it you had to make three hundred requests of swiping writer reply. So he had the sensibly. Sure. Sure. Sure. But it's massively attenuated because you're not being humiliated, not at all not at all. It's really it's really at arm's length, and you can wipe very very rapidly. And so you been all that rejection over with. A very short period of like losing video gamers, well, less. We're not. I mean, not nearly as bad. So I don't know what I mean. Tender also, reduces the one of the other things that things that you want to think about with regards to sex, and I think this is probably particularly true for women is that to what degree is it in women's interests to allow the cost of sex to fall to zero because with pornography, certainly does that. And it just seems to me that that's not a very good long term strategy for relationships between men and women because whatever sex is worth the cost of zero is the wrong price. And so that's you know, I heard the bunny ranch and pay quite a bit for well. True true. But that's true. But you don't have to. I've heard from a number of women what written read blog reports on their frustration with their attempts to be relatively sexually selective. Like, let's say they decide that they're not going to sleep with their new partner on the first date in they're frustrated by the fact that to the degree that they're being cautious in their sexual behavior. Which I think is actually an admirable idea that they're instantly out competed, especially if they're partners are somewhat impulsive by women who will say yes at the drop of a hat. And so well, again, I don't think you know, what depends on what the goal is. That's the thing is that there's the short terms short-term, sexual gratification. But the literature indicates that married couples, for example, or couples in permanent long term monogamous relationship are more sexually satisfied than single people. And maybe the single people have to be passed out into those who are sexually successful. And. Those who aren't but I suspect that would make that much difference. But whatever there's the utility of relatively immediate sexual gratification for whatever that's worth in the adventurous nece that goes along without let's say the hunt and the excitement of having a new partner in all of that. And maybe even the danger that's associated with that. Because people like to have a little bit of danger in their life. But what's the goal? It's like what do people want? And I mean, there's a great book called a billion wicked thoughts that was written by Google G nears. And so it contains great psychology because Google engineers don't care about political correctness. And they just write down what they find. They don't even notice that. It's politically incorrect, hence, James damore, for example. And what they found was that women use pornography just as much as men, but the pornography that women use is verbal it's not just and the pornographic novels, essentially, followed the same extraordinarily standard plot line to the degree that. Publishing houses like harlequin. We say, it's the it's the bodice rippers the restaurants now. Yeah. Right. So in the harlequin series. You have the ones that were published like in the nineteen seventies. That are pretty tame. There's a sniping. They're pretty hot actually. Well, there's a variety they rain. They range -pletely tamed to essentially hardcore pornography, but the but the plots are quite similar and the plot is young relatively innocent woman finds powerful interesting dangerous male tames him, and then they have anti-graft enough. Yeah. It's the beauty and the beast plot fundamental search for women on porn hub, we discovered we did an episode on point was for women. It was rape. Wasn't that like the no lesbianism, or at least that was your point? That was your thought me. Okay. Is going to the Williams Sonoma store, I know. It is it is seem able bulb those. No still. Bill marr said that men and women should never tell one another their fantasies because women are outraged by what we say, and we're totally bored. By what they thought like women have kind of these scenarios. I don't know unicorns. I don't know what they're dealing only lines storylines men were just like, I don't want to say this to you. But there's a lot of just close ups a female body. We'll men are much more visually oriented I sexually. And but now they're being shamed. I mean now, it's called the male gaze. And so there's all of his sick. Oh my God. The Sports Illustrated is exploiting the female, forget young men. Like it. I'm worried that now sort of the way in the past. Sexual sub gays were shamed. We're now reversing at N shaming like heterosexual. Yes, that's different. Remember, we had the young woman who complained about being whistled at and I said, don't worry it stops with sexual behavior. The question is what's the end game. And this is what people have to ask themselves is like one of the corollaries to the female pornographic. Romance is actually the establishment of a longterm relationship. And the question is, you know, it's so funny because I got pilloried in the New York Times for for talking about enforced monogamy squirting I now because and that gets brought up like in every. Ridiculous. We talked to that woman for two two days. I know it is just like a little side comment, and then that became the sticks. Like like enforcement Naga me, you mean forced marriage, or no, I mean that was an anthropological term which she knew perfectly well because she's a very smart person. And all it means is that there's a pronounced proclivity in human societies around the world to enforce monogamous relationships at multiple levels of the sociological hierarchy, you do it culturally. Do you do an expectation you do it legally enforced monogamy? So my son was just married, and if he came to me next year, and he said, you know, K dad, guess what I've managed to have four affairs in the last year with hot women and my wife hasn't found out about any of them. I'm not going to Pat him on the back and say good job. You know, I'm going to say what the hell's up with you. You know, you violated the vowed that you took you're putting your whole future. Riskier, betraying yourself and your wife, and well that's enforced monogamy. The the idea is that the social norm is the establishment of a long term monogamous relationship. And that there are strictures put in place to support that. Also to punish deviation from it. And you say, well, you know, maybe maybe not so much on the punishment end. But you can't depends like what do you want? What what is it that you want you want a long-term stable relationship or not? And if that's the goal, then your behavior should be devoted to whatever. It is that facilitates that goal, and I don't see that. I certainly don't see that casual and impulsive sex fits that Bill. Not not in the least and all of the evidence with regards to living together shows that that's actually detrimental to the establishment of a longterm relationship. So first of all common law marriage people who are in a common law marriage are much more likely to be divorced. That's the first thing. The second thing is people who live together before they get married are much more likely to be divorced after they get married. So the idea that well, you can try someone on for size and see how it works. And then you're going to see if you're compatible. It's like that's one story. Another story is well, how about you. And I lived together for a little while. And you know, if you're. You're not so bad. But maybe I can find someone better. And if I do, you know in the next year and a half or so because we're not hooked together in any form away. I can just trade you in. It's okay. You can do the same to me. But I don't really see that as the sort of complimentary mutual interaction that leads to the formulation of long-term trust. And I think it's a better story for interpreting what constitutes living together then. Well, you know, we're going to try each other out because that's what mature people would do rental. Yeah. Well, that's right washed. The rental cars, right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's that's it. And, but what more most importantly, the data indicate that it doesn't work is that you're more likely to get divorced not less likely because maybe the right attitude is well, you're probably about as flawed as me, and we're lucky that we found each other. So let's see if we can make a commitment because we're engaging in something that's very risky, you know, an intimate relationship, and we're going to commit to each other and see if we can build something of value across time and there's a definite risk and now, but there's. A complement to your partner. It's like, well, I think you're worth making a sacrifice for and what's the sacrifice while it's everyone else. It's a big sacrifice. And there's an if you don't see that as a compliment. Then I don't think you're thinking because not only is it a compliment it's sort of like the ultimate compliment. And maybe you don't get to have a marriage that works without that complement. Maybe it's so difficult to establish a long term relationship, that's functional that you have to make a walloping sacrifice very early on in the relationship in order for that to even be a possibility. Maybe because what the hell do we know about what binds people together? But but it's not that easy to stay with someone for a long period of time. You know, it's a real it's a real commitment. It takes a tremendous amount of effort. So that actually you're bringing us back to the beginning in the time with Tammy and one of the things about I think I'm going to guess this is a bit of an overlooked part in your chapter in your book. But I just was like one. Of my favorites. It was your book modern parenting, and that was one I thought I would get most trouble for I know, but. Don't read that for into the bull. My mother when I had my first child gave me a nineteen fifties copy of Dr spot, and he was considered so controversial. And yet he's just like sensible person made new children, very very well was a pediatrician and you your rule for parenting is do not let your children do anything that makes you dislike them, and you kind of in that one chapter, and it's not even one of your longest chapters. Just did this wonderful sweeping overview of modern parenting in the problems in in some ways that we're producing maybe some of these kids who are prolonging the markers of adulthood that that you feel that parents you said you see today's parents is terrified by their children. Not least because they've denied credit for their role as benevolent unnecessary agents of discipline order and convention -ality. And then you told some hilarious stories about when your wife ran a daycare center out of your house, and you would. You would get into tests of wills with some of the two year olds. But the tough man to your son is ordinary here. He got married. He still doesn't want to do anything. He doesn't want to do very charming and very emotionally stable. So it's like he's easy to get along with. But trying to get him to do something. He doesn't wanna do. Right. He had my wife defeated when he was nine months old, and she's tough seriously. She she's no pushover, but he would just sit there with his mouth closed and glare at her. Like, I'm not eating that. And I can take more than you conditio was really something to see to see that kind of force of will someone not small. Talk a little bit about that. In just the modern roles between men and women. I mean, we're less. You don't really you're not really supposed to distinguish between fathers and mothers, even though that seems to inevitably happen in most. Well, it happens in large part because the children differentiate between them like parents are under the delusion that most of what you do with your children is driven by what you want to do with your children. When in fact, it's driven to a massive degree by what your children want you to do with them. And so there were studies done thirty years ago on feminist parents who decided that they were going to raise their children in non gender differentiated manners. And when they were studied they found that the parents who had that explicit philosophy. We're just as gender differentiated with their children as the parents who didn't have the philosophy and the reason for that is that if you're a parent that has any sense at all you don't read respond to your children as a rigid ideologue, you respond to them as whatever it is the child man manifest himself him or herself as like, you know, with any individualized relationship, you take your cue from the person, and you might think well child has no intrinsic nature. But you know, if you think that you either don't have children or. I've never seen a child or you're so blinded by radiology that. You don't have a child you just have a blank projection screen onto which you project your presuppositions. And then heaven help your child. So so a lot of the gender differentiation is actually driven by the children's demands. And and that's all for the good. That chapter. I thought I would get into tremendous trouble for writing that chapter because it's contentious right on the surface. Just the rule because the rule I implies that children can be dislike -able, and then I would say again, you know, like have you met children exact very child with their children. You didn't like, obviously. And so lots of children are dislike -able, but it's taboo to admit that because they're all sweetness and light and innocence ever since Russo. But then so put all five of his children in an orphanage where they all died. So maybe we will. So we will talk much about Rousseau and. And then the next taboos well that parents can dislike their children. But if you're a clinician, and you don't think that parents can dislike their children then. Well, then well, then you're not a clinician because one of the things you constantly see is that path all g within families is an incredibly cong- common source of psychological destabilization, right? And it's terrible tension between parents and their children and between siblings. What I suggest in in the book, which I think is radical by today's standards is that your fundamental job as a parent is to ensure that by the time your child is four years old that they are maximally desirable to other children and two adults. Because what happens is that? After the age of four you aren't the primary agent of socialization the social world becomes the primary agent of socialization. And if your child is the sort of child. That's invited to play by other children because your child is capable of four stolen gratification and taking turns and playing someone else's game. When when it's necessary and abiding by the rules and not having a temper tantrum when they lose and not getting to, you know, high on their horse when they win then many children will invite them you get married when you have your children, and your flawed and your partners flawed, and hopefully you're flawed in different ways. And so you put the two of you together, and you make one approximately normal person. And then hopefully, and then your child has to interact with that diet that is reasonable Representative of social norms. And if they disappear if your child disappoints you with their behavior the probability that they will disappoint other people is very high. And so you have an ethical obligation to ensure that your child is behaving in a manner that makes them optimally desirable to their playmates and. Also, two other adults because then the kids invite them to play and they get to be socialized. Right. They get they have friends for God's sake is like what do you want for your kids? How about some friends? Wouldn't that be nice? And maybe what you'd like is that they regulate their behavior well enough. So that when you take them places restaurants to see your friends to see your relatives, they behave in a manner that sufficiently civilized, so their intrinsic charm wins over the adults and everywhere they go people are smiling and welcoming instead of wishing with fake smiles that the damn brat would leave along with their foolish parents, which is not a good. That's not a good environment to have your child constantly exposed to no friends because they're too selfish and immature and irritated irritating to adult so that they're barely tolerated. Under the mask of false smiles. It's like you have an ethical obligation to regulate your child's behavior. So that their optimally acceptable, socially. And that is not how people look at children in the modern world, they think well, you raising their self esteem or your enhancing, their creativity or you don't want to put constraints on their behavior because you're going to interfere with flowering of their intrinsic self, and you know, it's all who so in nonsense, and and there's no evidence. Do. Yeah. Father. In such a corrupt, and he had these babies with this poor scullery maid and left them all in a actually a place where they would just languish and die. Yeah. Right. Five of them Russo. Yeah. I know. Yeah. Exactly. Intrinsically good. Joe Joe, I just remember at few weeks ago. It was really met you in an somehow got onto somebody's Twitter feed whom I will not mention because oh my God. But anyway, but difficult person, and she was attacking you and had a selection from your book where you would called two year olds little launchers. And so suddenly all of these distraught. Twitter followers of this feminist. We're saying called them on Stor little little monsters and everybody, and then occasionally there'd be a parent who would take the kind two year olds kind of Armand stirs, you know, and then there'd be and they can kind of our they had taken this out of context and shown it like something to deplore. But it was so amusing to me this little hopefully will soon be cursed. The some two year. We'll there. Posters. Okay. My son was I won't say which one was two years old and had he was a good boy, but he had an insane meltdown in a supermarket. I was with my mother we both pretended. We didn't know. Oh, yes. Watch it. We heard people say oh my God. Vo have a two year old half. A tantrum is your I didn't want to be associated. We we had a boy who used to be like when my wife is taking care of more kids than ours. There was a little boy who who had learned to throw a pretty decent town. And and he would do that. And it didn't work in our house because we just leave him have his tantrum and going into a different room. And then he kind of wake up out of there wouldn't be anybody around. And so that like if you put all that words audience dramatic display zero audience, it's not going to sustain it. Anyways. He could actually hold his breath until he turned blue. You should try that go home and see if you can do that in front of the mirror, man. Like, it's hard. It's very Gary guy. You have to do. It was impressive. It was and two year olds are very impressive. They're they're they have unbelievable outbursts of rage and disinherited emotion and your job is, you know, they're they're driven by these underlying motivational systems that are unbelievably powerful. And it's part of what makes them delightful. Because when they're happy they're insanely happy when they're playful, they're incredibly playful, and so the positive end of them is is way exaggerated compared to a rather drab adult. And so it makes two year olds extraordinarily interesting. But the same is true on the negative emotion side, they're completely disrupted, and it's really hard on them. Like to have a two year old who isn't in control of their emotions means that you have a child who's developing central personality their ego for lack of a better word, his constantly being swamped by these powerful underlying emotional systems. You know, what it's like if you are in raged for any period of time, or if you're engulfed by grief like, it's exhausting. It's it's it's demeaning, and it's exhausting and it's the same with a little kid. It's like it's a real defeat for the developing integrated individual to be subjugated by those catastrophically, powerful emergency motions and part of your job as a parent is to scaffold the part of the child. That can radiate an inhibit those powerful underlying system. So with my son, for example, when he used to misbehave I would count say you're going to go sit on the steps he'd say. Oh, no. I'm not I say ho, yes, you are. And then usually I'd have to chase them around because he wouldn't go sit on the steps. And so I put him on the steps. So you're going to sit there until you've got yourself under control. And so he'd say, no, I'm not say, yes, you are. And then he tried to get up. And I just told him say you're gonna sit there. I'm gonna hold you till you sit there. No, I'm not it's like, I could wait a two year old. So I usually won those battles. And then he'd sit there and I'd say look kid. This is the deal to things like you won't have a bad day or you want a good day. You think about that? Because if you wanna have a good day. Bad day, we could ever bad days, you sit here as soon as you controlling self, and you really to be civilized. Then you can come back, and we can have a good day. So we'd sit there. I just I was unbelievable to wash just in gin valid with rage. You know, just trying to get himself under control, you know. And so I'd come back thirty seconds later. And I'd say, you know, but got yourself got your act together. You know? Dog weight and usually took him two or three minutes and he'd calm down. And then he'd come back out. And you'd say I'm ready to have a good day. And he meant it when I could tell him into to because whatever resentment I was harboring towards him for his misbehavior. And you have to watch that when you're an adult would vanish because he'd come in. He he was done. He was ready to proceed on civilized basis. And it was really interesting to watch that because it took him every time he sat on the steps. It took them shorter and shorter period of time to attain mastery, right until it got to the point where he could only have to sit for fifteen seconds or so when he would bring himself under control, and that was a victory like if you mentioned the neurological systems developed that are responsible for personality integration was victory for those systems because they were attaining the ability to regulate the lower order spontaneous emotions, and you know. And he turned into an individual who is capable of a tremendous level of self control. And you know, and he had large dangerous with. Yes. Absolutely. And it turned out well for my daughter to because she ended up being very ill. And he'd be ended up being extraordinarily levelheaded and reliable. And thank God for that. Could you could you come to my house into that for my little multiple Izzy because I I can't I can't I can't train her. She's like among the next book the dog. I would love on how to train your dog. Four cats. What I that's the one. What's with petting? The cat. I wrote about dogs for two pages to begin with just to satisfy the dog. It didn't satisfy. You can't satisfy them. No, right. Well, we can't. Thank you enough for coming here. I know the audience is just so delighted to have had the chance to hear you on really good trips to talk. Links of that you like once we met in DC, but I've seen you. Past electro. Yes, yes. Oh you swiped past. Oh, yeah. Well, there was that. We're not going into that. Thank you. Thank you, Jordan citizen.

Jordan Peterson Canada United States Scandinavia partner Christina Hoff Danielle Crittenden Baltimore Washington DC Sweden croquet Tammy professor Twitter American Enterprise Institute Marshall mcluhan Montreal Fairview Slater university of Toronto
S3E6 Be humble

Cup of Tao

10:59 min | 9 months ago

S3E6 Be humble

"On today's show season three episodes six be humble on the show will jump back into one of the pillars or treasures of Taoism uh-huh ism humility. I will read from Chapter Seven and eight the doubt Asia and then provide some commentary. And we'll have a short break and come back and we'll talk more personally coming up on your favorite podcast show cup of Dow starting right. Now you're listening to Coupla Dow with your host Chris L. Mcleish Chris's a man with many roles. Many journeys in one MM spirit. Hello listeners. How you doing today as always I appreciate you spending some of your valuable time with me? So for a forewarning for this season I've been going in order chapter by chapter of the Dow Dashing and it's Nice for those who we're well organized and like to follow a straight path but as you know in life the Path is never straight. I'm probably going to have. Have you read and reflect on the Dow Beijing yourself for some chapters. I plan to move around a bit through the doubt aging this gives you the opportunity to read version or a translation and ponder it. There are many good versions out there and some include commentary. I have many favourite versions the Fang in English version Derek Lin Stephen Mitchell and Oliver Benjamin my my goal is to continue to explore some themes of Taoism including insight non-resistance flexibility mindfulness harmony armony. And of course the three pillars Taoism which are compassion moderation and humility. Today we're going to discuss humility eighty. I will be reading from an anonymous version. The Dow Dashing for Chapter Seven Eight and thirteen chapter seven universes everlasting why is it everlasting. It's because it doesn't exist for itself therefore endures likewise when the sage puts himself or herself as the last here. She is the greatest. Get over yourself and free yourself from expectations you do. This disappointments will not scar. You chapter eight the way to be as to be like water. It benefits all things in competes with nothing. It is content with the places basis that others despise it flows and takes the shape of its container the master value simplicity around others before accessible when you are needed to be reliable and leading become seek peace and lead by example in what he does. He is competent. Do it needs to be done be present for others especially the ones that that you care about. And by not resisting against the Dow your path will be manageable. Chapter thirteen accept defeat willingly a accept tragedy as part of living. What does it mean to accept defeat willingly? It means that you're not special. You you are not immune to defeat do not be overly concerned with success or failure. That is what it means to accept. Defeat willingly what does it mean to accept tragedy as part of living tragedy is part of being human. If we didn't live our lives we wouldn't face tragedy humbly. Surrender to what is and care for those people and things around you as you would yourself and you who will then be trusted with great responsibility during Season Episode Fifteen. I talked about being like water. How valuable is water? How powerful is water? How flexible is water? How humble as water water is this perfect analogy the Dow? It can be hot or cold it can change form. So what's the bottom line here. Well be humble. Don't boast Brag or Pat Yourself I notice that layouts who tells us to put ourselves last and the last or the least shall be first so those of you with a Christian background may notice. There's a parallel teaching here as Jesus said the same thing when ask who is the greatest among them now. This path of humility is not easy. Layouts tells us in the long run. We're GONNA benefit yet. I have noticed and talked about how those who boast brag themselves. I maybe more likely to get ahead in the business world so you have to know that if you follow this teaching teaching there are going to be. Some challenges are also elements here of not being too pushy. Not coercing others to your will. That is part of the Taoist version of humility not to be a micromanager insistent to be flexible. Finally we see elements of compassion. Here we all suffer. We all make mistakes. We sometimes place ourselves subs above or maybe even below other people but we all do wrong. Sometimes we all suffer. Your challenge is is to figure out how you can be more humble more flexible less resistant more compassionate and more resilient. So how much time do you spend being angry at others. How much of your day do you spend being angry at yourself? How long are you GonNa let your brain gene consume you with moments not being fully engaged in the present? And that's something you can ask your mind. It's part of mindfulness ext time you're ruminating dating and worry or you're angry ask your mind say how long by going to spin wasting my day doing this when I could be doing things the demonstrate my care for others and spending more time in what really matters plus it's not healthy to spend too much time wallowing around in in your thoughts and a negative emotions until next time. See if you can go about giving without taking or at least on one occasion occasions week. See if you can humbly own a mistake without being defensive and while you're at it forgive yourself you're an imperfect human and that's okay now. Let's take a short break. Be Sure. Purchase my book accepting life on life's terms Taoist psychology for today's uncertain times. If you love this this podcast you'll love the book. Look for the book wherever you buy books available in written and digital format do you want to start your own podcast. I do do it. It's easy just go to pine cast dot com try pine cast for free forever. No credit card hard required if you decide to upgrade use. Coupon Code Are Dash Eight D. F. E. F. Zero or forty percent off for four months and the Soap Support Cup of Dow Forty Christina Hoff. Do almost half off. Yeah so get get it now go to PINE CAST DOT COM. That's your assignment. Hey if you're enjoying couple now and you can afford to make a small contribution you can contribute. Contribute to the cost of the show does visit tips. PINE CAST DOT COM forward slash jar forward Slash Cup Hyphen of Hyphen. Tau and that spilled tea. A thank you well. I'm sorry this podcast is late. I was doing some work training and getting caught up in some other other things and anyway like I said before. I can't really commit to every week doing this but please please stay tuned. I will try to release a new episode. At least a minimum of once per month may be more her. At least. That's my plan. Well Bill Anyway until next time to good things and stay in harmony with the Dow. See next time. Don't forget to subscribe to my show in your podcast player APP or to the RSS feed you can find my email address contact information a disclaimer in more information in the show notes. So please check those out. Hey that's offered today show. I will see next time a piece to be with you. Thank you for

Coupla Dow Dow Beijing Dow Chris L. Mcleish Chris Asia Derek Lin Jesus Christina Hoff Oliver Benjamin Stephen Mitchell forty percent four months one MM
SIO206: ContraPoints and Cancel Culture

Serious Inquiries Only

53:36 min | 11 months ago

SIO206: ContraPoints and Cancel Culture

"You're listening to serious inquiries on and hello and welcome to serious inquiries. Only this is Thomas that over. There's Jamie how you doing Jamie. How are you doing. I'm so excited to be back. Not only that not only excited to be back with you. I'm excited to announce. This is great that we will be doing a little recording right after the debates tomorrow I don't no I said debates where we only have to do one. We'll have to sit through one Jamie. It's amazing. They know they finally going down to ten so that's going to be awesome. We both look at our schedules and realized that we could we could pull off a late night recording tomorrow and get the rapid response going. I cannot wait to finally finally see all the candidates that I am fond of and the candidate that I really don't like well. Actually there's a couple of dollars on on the same stage and see you how they fare in that context. I'm excited. What do you think I am so excited for tomorrow. I am especially helpful to see Bernie. Elizabeth Elizabeth Warren kind of tag team Joe Biden Nice that is that's really what I'm looking forward to you. I I kinda feel like a kid on Christmas Eve and tomorrow's the day and I might presence going to get delivered so I'm very excited that would be nice because Elizabeth Warren not a big fair. Joe Biden not a huge fan throughout history so that could could be cool all right well that said that's going to look for that. If you WANNA if you're dying for that late night content stay up. We'll try to do like one of those unedited lively type things I can get right up or you know catch it in the morning either way but for today we wanted to talk about quote unquote. I don't know if it should be in scare quotes or not cancel culture because of of several things that have happened but the most recent that that the put it on my radar. I guess was Contra points who I've referenced on the show. I'm a big Fan of Contra points. Natalie win is her name and I think your videos are really cool and and she tweeted some stuff and got a reaction and then quit twitter and I wanNA talk about it. Do you want to break down the tweets of what happens up and so I only have a screen shot available of some of the tweets before she was got before she had deleted her account account and sort of disappeared from twitter what stood out to me as what seemed to get people. The most upset is where she seemed to to be kind of dismissive about gender fluid non-conforming non by Neri members of the transgender community community and some people took that to mean that she was saying that they weren't valid as trans people and they were you know sort of inventing new genders on because she had said that Trans People are roughly about point three percent of the population but then on some discord or facebook group there was twenty twenty to thirty percent identify some flavor of Trans and specifically that they were not conventional binary transsexuals and so that was what got her into the hot water. I think it's the hot water I WANNA talk about. You know because it's not so much. I'm not here for one to kind of adjudicate. This Trans Pronoun issue do what she had said was actually re tweet of someone else's tweet the started off that was about. You know one thing that's hard for. I guess you would say a passing Trans People's. I think the wording she used which is sometimes in hyper woke spaces where you know there's it's just West Natalie win and a bunch of ses women they all decide they need to go around and say their pronouns and for her she finds that really uncomfortable because they're only doing it for her and she feels like she should just be passing and people should assume that she's she her and that causes her discomfort and it's one of those things were reading not as somebody who would maybe be one of those like woke people trying to make sure you're not offending anybody in and saying the right stuff it kind. I felt like Oh shoot. Is that another thing that that you know that you could screw up like being trained to considerate about pronouns and that might actually have a reverse effect for some people people so it it it from from my standpoint I was. I just saw it as like okay. This is something that can happen. This is something that can make. Some people feel uncomfortable. Maybe I'll just keep keep that in mind. You know in the future but it seemed to me to. I don't know just be Natalie. Venting what I wanted to talk about was was not exactly adjudicating you know how pissed should anybody be or or I don't want to speak for non binary people. I've I've seen some good sources on this. I've seen some a couple of good youtube videos that I can put in the show notes that I've watched to kind of. Make sure that you know we're listening to non binary people on this but for me. I I wanted to talk about this idea of Natalie. We just quitting twitter. You know there's so much that goes into this but one thing that's a very negative consequence and I wonder Jamie. If you saw this right away win counterpoint sally win lease twitter because of this all of a sudden she's the intellectual dark. Web's favourite person of all time and they're all like Wa. I I cannot believe that the left with pitchforks again came for Natalie win a moderate. You know they kind of rewrite what happened in like maker Christina off summers totally mis read this. I don't know if you saw that but they have no understanding of what's actually happening. Christina Hoff Summers said Oh now Lee was just just expressing her anti neutral Pronoun opinion and you all canceled her for it and it's like no that's actually not at all what happened but she became all of a sudden contra points became like this mascot for this anti cancel culture crowd and that kind of sucks because now that that must put well Natalie in a real bind. You know she's feeling like art. I don't WanNa be on this spawned line space anymore. For whatever reasons the all of a sudden. She's being used as a weapon weapon against the left. It's the whole thing's a mess. I have some thoughts. I've been talking for awhile. So why don't I let you jump in. If you want to say anything about that thus far yeah so there are a number of moving pieces and I just want to throw this out there because it had stood out to you mentioned you were going to maybe put up some youtube videos. I also have some papers that I can provide links to for trans. Philosophers and Queer philosophers who are working on some of these issues of anybody is interested to do any deep digging into the reading that sort of supplying the theoretical framework for the idea is that Natalie and others are talking about as we navigate this so i. I didn't see what Christina Summers had said because I try dot to look too much into the abyss for fear that it will stare back into me my general policy is like just to not get too deep into the ID wls. I be tainted. They're obviously not acting in a good faith. They will have no use for Natalie once she emerges from this and continues to advocate for Trans Rights and Trans Acceptance. They will be very happy to discard her and I'm sure that she is you know self aware enough and politically aware enough off to realize that that's how they intend to use her so I'm not really worried that she's going to be misused by the idea w 'cause I suspect she is far smarter than any of them have given her credit for yet that she will not be there useful tool and fingers crossed. I don't get proven wrong for that so as you know assists woman. I definitely want to stay very far away from even attempting to adjudicate any of of these issues but you know to weigh in on cancelled culture. It's one not evident to me yet that she's actually been canceled She still has her patriotic. She still has her. You've chip Youtube Channel which I think when I checked it. This afternoon was at seven hundred thirty thousand subscribers end of anything. I imagine that this controversy now that it's taken place will only increase the likelihood that people will be tuning in to her next video to see just exactly what she has to say so. I don't think in a way that she's been canceled her. She's been D. Platform and although there there is a sense here. We don't know the particulars right. We don't know what's going through her mind. You know for all we know. She may have simultaneously gotten bad family news that caused her to just kind of unplug from twitter to focus on what really matters but if it is the result of this sort of the pile-on that she received you know this is what Christie Dotson talks about when she talks about testimonials smothering that Natalie has decided added to sort of self-censor herself because she doesn't feel like her audience is receptive to sort of knowledge. She wants to communicate because as you pointed out this began with her saying her preference for what it's like to be in a room where pronouns are being disclosed yeah. I think that's all that's all right and and the reason I wanNA talk about it. 'cause like I feel like I have some perspective on this. You know like having you know the podcast and some amount of audience and being on twitter and stuff and it it just feel tough sometimes and I think I've gone through some amount of this given that I you know pissed off Carl Sargon something something. Jamie probably knows nothing about that's okay no until it got a lot of harassment got all that stuff for a while and I've kind of come out of the other side of that. It's it's not exactly analogous because most of that was from you know people who I eventually realized. Oh these are right wing alright light assholes I don't care about but initially since it was just as an atheist and they were just other atheists. This was what I thought my people were. You know for a while. It was receiving a lot of harsh stuff especially because there are some very very large twitter accounts including the godless spell checker and that the amazing atheists that guy who who piled on during that time he'd rather not you know hundreds of thousands of followers and it was it was rough and I in no way ever want to minimize especially you know sitting on a on a mountain of privilege especially the experience of a trans person who I'm sure gets all that kind of harassment times a thousand so it's not to minimize it but I but I did eventually eventually gain the insight that I think that when you get to a certain point I really think that Natalie if I were to ever to speak it to her and try to give any sort of friendly advice I think she's just got a not look at the mentioned I think when you get to a certain level of fame and she is certainly that that she has a lot of followers and she's been covered in the New York Times and mainstream sources that means that like she's not even going to know when it's good faith or not you you know when you get to a certain level of reach you sure there are people who have genuine disagreements with her and I don't want to minimize that that's that's all fine but also you don't even know how many people are just cynically trying to make you feel bad by posing as someone on the left. Who's giving you a hard time. You know when you have a million followers or whatever she was up to. I I think it's like Ezra. Klein actually said this on his show that he just literally does not look at mentions anymore. It's it's kind of over like he just tweets out what he wants to say or share or whatever and then you just don't even look at the mentions. I really think it's unfortunate but I kind of think that's how it has to be when you get it to a certain level of fame because you just don't know who these people are and you can do your best to stay out of it but I think what's happened for Natalie as you've said I do not think thinks she's been quote unquote cancelled. She's canceled herself right now. She's self censored but as you said there yes she's getting some criticism but but it could very well be very vocal but a very small group corner of of the Internet and maybe they're right. Maybe they're wrong but she still had every every option to just let that be and to just say all right sorry either sorry is wrong or I was right and this is why and then still have have hurt you know almost a million subscribers and still have her patrons and all that and very much not be d platform. D- Now I don't WanNa be read as saying that she she has any obligation to stay on twitter or anything like that. It's not at all like very many times. I almost left left. All the social media was just like this is the worst I don't WanNa do it anymore. And I in no way mean to say that people have some duty or they out of tough it out. It's not that but but it is to say that she had the option of she hasn't been canceled. I agree with you like she had the option to not be cancelled. Maybe she doesn't want to you know utilize that option currently but it but it's not as though she was forcibly forcibly removed from the internet or something she did it to herself really right and I think at the end of the day whether or not that was a good or bad thing thing is is going to be an empirical question that we can answer well Eager Bedford who to like relative for her or for us or for what do you mean in terms of this conversation. I'm talking about four her right because this was a choice that she made and I think it's not dissimilar from as recline saying that he doesn't check his mentions and a really good way to not check. Your mentions is to make sure we're not getting any until it sort of blows over and you know that you can sort of take the mental space that you need to you know filter out. What's legitimate criticism from what's you know trolls and what's right wing. Internet personalities trying to leverage you for their own nefarious purposes and so I would like to think that that's what she's doing now. some of the criticism are some of the pushback that she got. I do think is legitimate on end is worth addressing dressing and hopefully that will be the focus of a future video where she engages some of the more substantive criticism that she got in response to these statements and that she comes out of this you know more knowledgeable stronger and more determined to continue to be you know a face to normalize normalized trans people in our communities yeah and I so I guess the point. I'm trying to make an and agree with all that but the point I'm trying to make also is. I think are there to speak simplistically. I think there are two variables to speak very simplistically. I think there's the variable of what is the actual amount and the the quality of crappier getting on social media and then the other variable is you and people are in different places and that's totally fine. There are people for whom mm-hmm you know. One bad tweet is enough or maybe it's just a bad enough tweet whatever to where they're like. I don't want to do this. I hate this. I'm out and that's totally valid. I'm I'm absolutely making no judgement of either way because I've been there. I've been everywhere on the spectrum but there's also people who just rolls right over them and it's interesting resting I. I'm amazed at those people because I'm not there. I'm somewhere somewhere between but I I think what I guess. conceptually what I'm worried about. out is blending those variables together you know and saying well if she quit it must be because the hate the hate. She was getting from her own side. The left was so big that she just could not even be on the space and from my view it's like I don't. I don't really think it was all that bad. I mean there's I'm sure sure she's getting a lot of horrible. Suffering people on the right and from Anti Trans people don't mean to minimize that but that's kind of a constant that's just always gonna be there for her because because of who she is which is horrible but when we're talking about whether or not the left is engaging in like a cancel culture. That's that's not the variable. I'm looking at you know like her baseline as line hate she gets from Anti Trans People so I think we have to be really careful about a opting that narrative one. I'm just not really sure that it's true and to I think the people who are pushing that narrative have a vested interest in it being true because so long as they can continue to push narrative that the leftist canceling people the Leftist D platforming people. They're censoring people through criticism. They continued they can continue to exist in this narrative where the real reason their ideas aren't getting purchased isn't because they're terrible old no good garbage ideas. Nobody should adopt but because there is this villainous laughed. That's out to get them and I think we need to be really skeptical all about that. Yeah I totally agree I think if people are taking this was Natalie's response and and sort of using get to assume there was this great universal leftist canceling that didn't happen. That's that's what I want to just clear up and say I. I don't really think that is what happened. Were you around on twitter back in while you've been there for a while but I don't know how active you've been necessarily. Do you remember when Tana Hussy coats quit twitter. I doubt now so he quit in the interesting thing he quit over and I'm pretty sure he's never been back. This has been I wanNA say two or three years he quit just over one thank and it was a kind of a fight with Cornell West. I knew it was GONNA be Cornell new that did so interesting interesting because he just said all right. I'm out I'm gone. I didn't is not what I want to be here for and he had one point five million followers and I'm pretty sure he's never been back back like we can search now but I think he's maybe that's probably a smart thing honest frankly but but that's interesting because is it. Was Somebody quitting twitter. You know who has a million point two five followers. They're over a single person you know like a- An- and I imagine that also Cornell wests fans probably got in there and you know a complicated it there but it wasn't really as though it was like this leftist leftist canceling more than it was kind of a feud between two people we gotta be careful separating people's personal choices of whether they they find it worthwhile to continue on a platform like twitter facebook or whatever it may be versus. Somebody's been actually cancelled in a in a horrific way right and I'm going to mispronounce his name. 'cause I'm a terrible. No good person can never pronounce anything correctly but again coats has has not been canceled. He still writing. He still giving talks. He's still publishing. He still very much a public intellectual and this was as a personal decision where he decided this was not the right medium for him to communicate his ideas to his fans. It wasn't what was most effective and it was probably interfering in his ability to do what was most effective and so at the end of the day he's a very smart man and decided you know after a cost benefit analysis it just it wasn't worth it and to be honest. I'm like kind of jealous that he's got like level of commitment made this decision and it was done and that was it and never never looked back. you know I think for US mere mortals we you know I think we need to think about social media seriously about how we use it and if it's a source of more pain for you like don't do ya like just just. I guess it's really easy to say right like just stop but if there's a thing in your life that on average is bringing you more suffering than is bringing you joy that is that is not a thing. You should be keeping around. You need to find something to replace that fixation. because this world is full of enough bullshit. Social media should not be another place that it enters your world. Yeah I guess just from my perspective. The thing I would say is what what helped me and I think it's going to be very specific to the circumstances was I realized that everybody trolling me was just the same insult piece of shit like and I was like Oh these are all the same guy and I don't care about them so that got actually kind of easy but there are definitely times James where an end There's there's a great book on it. I've referenced before among looking over on my shelf to see what it is because I have the worst memory for names in the history three of time see. I've referenced it before but you know Jon. Ronson wrote the book so you've been publicly shamed and he's actually pretty I. I don't know what you'd would call it. I don't know if you want to call it left right and that's something we can get to. I don't think there is really distinction there but he's been maybe more reticent to you engage in any kind of online. He's been very against online shaming after writing that book because he does he did find you know there are examples of and the famous one that maybe you've heard of was the the woman who got on a flight. Do you remember this. She tweeted a joke about like oh travelling to Africa Africa hope. I don't get AIDS just kidding white yes which was a joke clearly a joke and it also isn't isn't really clear like. I don't know what stance she's taking. Sometimes people are being ironic or people are like targeting group is not even really clear from the tweet that that like whether or not she was being ironic or actually Ashley targeting anybody but anyway she gets on the plane. She gets off the plane and she's lost her job and like everybody's gone nuts. It's gone super viral like there are definitely examples of okay. This craps gone way too far. This is this is actually bad. It's taking people's jobs may be an unjustified way and if if maybe you don't think that's a good example there are others in the book where it's short might be someone making a bad joker making a comment or whatever it is but the idea that that then ruins ends their lives is a very real thing and I think it's a bad thing but the I guess the main point I want to get to is Colin. frigging Kapernick like this is not a left eating itself thing people though the everybody is invested in this being left wing issue like both left in like a lot love people in the centre want the left to be this way so that they can have that narrative people on the right want the left to be this way so they can bash the left and say oh look. It's so impossible possible to be on the left because you just can't live up to those standards. So why don't you be intellectual dark web centrist a hole. That kind of thing like there are so many people with a vested interest interests. I think you arrest referencing this earlier that in that narrative that it's frustrating because it's just not the case. Colin Kaepernick doesn't have a job because he is in the NFL anyway which which is a big sacrifice that he made you know because he knelt literally the least thing you could do almost he knelt during the national anthem and the right decided. He's not a person anymore so like this is not they left wing issue so this is so interesting to me because this is this is a debate. I have sort of been watching in from the sidelines and there is a philosopher at Yale who is currently working on on fascism and he's had a previous book out on how Propaganda Works Wchs on his name is Jason as Jason Stanley and he's been talking about this recently this idea of you know D platforming and censoring and their certain is this narrative right that the left is out of control where uninviting speakers from campuses because they spouse Nazi adjacent views news and there's you know this this sort of impulse to say well you know both sides are doing it and it's kind of you know all over the place and I don't don't have all of the details handy but he does like an empirical analysis of this and what he signed actually is that it really isn't the case that the speakers or the the people who are holding views on the right are actually getting deployed formed in any way that corresponds with the outrage they feel for not having these these opportunities to speak but when people do end up being on the receiving end of being d platform or losing their jobs they overwhelmingly overwhelmingly tend to be articulating what we would consider more left leaning views for example there was I think it was a dean at the University of of Alabama who was recently forced to resign because he dared to suggest that police violence may have a racist element to it and this offended the powers that be defended the the board of directors offended that the donors and so he was pushed out of the university and you mentioned Kapernick right again the same sort of thing right. m- dust you know kneeling right which is a sign of respect. It's literally how you genuflect in Church to to give deference to God and this cost him his job and so there there really isn't this symmetry in place at least according to people who are studying this that the left really isn't isn't doing this to the right the way that the right is claiming it and actually in fact. It looks like if anybody is going to be victim of this. It's it's usually the right wing that that pushes back on people as passing more left leaning views and all gone one better. Oh Sorry WanNa cut in if you had more I do. I say that woman on the airplane. That's that's complicated. This is not a public person. This is not a public official on and I sort of of the opinion that whatever you do in your personal life should not impact your job if your job is in in any way connected to those sorts of comments right and so if this was a nurse treating AIDS patients. I might feel differently or if she were maybe I don't know maybe even a teacher there some there some overlap because to me. I don't think it's quite right to just sort word of dismiss it as a joke it's that that sort of a joke to me seems egregiously vulgar and as predicated on at this assumption that like oh it's funny when black people die in large numbers because we've historically systematically ignored the diseases they suffer from and I did. I think people really are then like there's there's the counter argument and that's what's hard if you're taking an ironic stance and we can. Did you know that this person could have bickered about this. I don but if they're taking an ironic stance like this joke is to highlight that it sucks that there's a racial disparity in this you know like where. Where do you draw that line. I guess what bothers me about that situation. Is I feel like it should be handled like you would handle it and in an actual workplace thing where it's hey this your co worker found this joke offensive and then it's their responsibility to like apologize. Make sure they've learned their lesson do that kind of thing but because like the Internet now all of a sudden. There's This knee-jerk noteworthy clearly we have to fire this person because they tweeted something and a lot of people thought plot. It's just it's weird and it ends up being unjust a lot of the time but it's really agree with that. I think there's a lot of things that intersect here because when somebody loses their job particularly in the United States of America they're also GONNA lose their healthcare they're going to lose their income which means they mix may miss their mortgage payment which means they may lose their house. and there isn't really social safety net here in a meaningful sense on to catch people when these sorts of things happen and I don't WanNa make excuses for people who do bad things but I was. I I was on talk yesterday about Var and we were mentioning that the novel she came to stay in one of the questions is fundamentally about like is is a person fundamentally their worst moment who like what makes a person. Are you your worst mistake or can you recover from that. Can you be more than that and I think you know the way that our system is set up where it's focused on punishing in extracting retribution we have a tendency I think to prevent people from moving beyond their worst mistakes because the way that we respond to their worst mistakes shakes very often puts them in circumstances that leaves them so few choices that the options available to them are pretty Shitty Yeah I. I think it's all it's it's. It's such a game of luck oftentimes for some people a mistake. They made ruins their life to you know whereas if I did the same thing but like got lucky you know if I was distracted driving one time and I just happen to know they're just didn't happen to be like some Old Lady Cross the road or something you know like take the same action could either and blitz ruin your life or you get lucky and it's nothing like literally does nothing to you. It's it's it's I guess yes we could all use to be a bit more charitable. You know when it comes to people making a big mistake but yeah I was. GonNa say earlier to bolster your point about out this not being a left-wing issue and specifically often being worse for people on the left. I I just have to point this out like when we're talking about right wing cancelled culture you're John. Bolton just got fired right. John Bolton and the right is calling him like a liberal now thick to say why yes essays on Fox News. I might have been Tucker. Carlson was one of those people you know like. which is the right you like? That's a mainstream right-wing voice. Now they've decided aided the John Bolton the he had to get out of there because he's always been this progressive like fo- what he's not really conservative so that's how bad right wing cancel culture alter is it's gotten to the point where if you just disagree with their president they're they're like deity in president trump. If you just disagree you're all of a sudden not not a person and you're a liberal actually gone so well. I mean that's insane. I think that's why we need to be especially careful earful and skeptical about any claims on anybody on the Ri- and especially anybody from the intellectual dark web when they start talking about the left being out of control because I think these moral equivocations really are troubling because they it they obscure our ability to identify what should be the center and what should be a neutral point in so far as such thing exists if we are now going to turn John John Bolton into liberal because he disagreed with Donald Trump. We are doomed that if John Bolton is a liberal being liberal roll doesn't mean fortunately. I don't think any liberals were buying that it was just just Fox News the propaganda work well so this is what's so interesting right because the point of saying things like this isn't even to try to convince viewers that on any fact of the matter it's to strip from from them the very notion that there's even such a thing as true and that what that's what makes this kind of propaganda so scary and I think given that this is happening on a national political scale. We need to be extra mindful when other bad actors are doing that with Natalie about her being cancelled by the left for you know just saying her first person experience is that you know when I'm in a room and I'm the only trans person and everybody is you. You know sharing their pronouns. It feels very uttering to me because it highlights the fact that I'm different. I think we've just got to be careful. Yeah so it as somebody who you know considers himself progressive and has has proudly donned the label S. J. W. at times you know and that's for that's for everybody you to decide where they are where they consider themselves and it's also for other people to decide you know whether or not actually fulfil that. I don't know but anyway as somebody who's been in that. Ah Fear Online you know. I think everybody has their limits. I think that a lot of time the a lot of the time we want to assume soon that or at least I see this in some interactions online where there's just no too far for certain things you know and and I think for me I I had took me some time to dial that in of like okay windy. Why Not Care about this disagreement. You like a particular thing. If someone wants to take what I think is a bad faith interpretation of something. I've said and use that to do one of these like Oh. This person is practically a right winger doubted on make one of those sort of I guess cancellation efforts. I think everyone has their line of where they're going. We're going to draw for themselves and they need to draw that line. I think of whether you think this is good faith and worthwhile or not and if you think it's something that you said bad wrong which has often been the case with me. I want to apologize and make your right is best. I can or if I think like okay. This is something who this is. Someone who for whatever reason like doesn't like me and would like to say bad things about me and I feel like they're just taking a very bad faith reading of what I said you have I think the thing we have to try to do which is really hard and which I try to do now. Is You have to just realize you're not going to change their mind. You know there's some people who they they don't want to agree with they. Don't you know they they want to score a point on something or whatever and you just have to let it sit. You know like I I I. I really think that I don't believe that. Contra points needed to quit twitter. I mean if she wanted to for her own. Sake that's always going to be here decision but like she could have just just left us and said okay. This is what I said what I think be. Some people disagree you know or change your mind and apologized but I you know I don't know so ah yeah so there are a couple of different things there. I think I you know when when navigating any of these sort of dynamics you need to be mindful all of who your audience is right and so I have the great privilege of getting to teach philosophy for a living and because of that experience yes I know that arguments actually can change students minds that when you engage people's ideas it really can expand their thinking and people within a short period of time can radically alter their views and that can only be done through dialogue that said if it becomes obvious that someone is in no away interested in what the truth of the matter is and is just trying to or rhetorical points that is a complete waste of time and by all mornings. You should check out right. You might as well pound salt. It's just not going to do accomplish anything except your own frustration and who needs more of that in their life as it relates to. Oh you know self identified progressive people navigating these kind of complicated spaces where we're trying to make sense of changing norms and what should be appropriate especially when it's like a self identified progressive person who's relatively privileged as it relates to other people ball. I think Rachel McKinnon has a paper out that asks people to move from thinking of themselves as allies and encourages ages them to be what she calls active by standards because she says when we think of ourselves as allies it becomes part of the identity we aware and so when we get you know reasonable feedback from the very people we conceive of ourselves as being allied to it threatens our identity in a way that can result in us being defensive whereas if we consider ourselves active bystanders and we intercede on behalf of the people that we want to support in the midst of actual acts of oppression then we're less defensive when someone says Oh hey actually you know what being asked to announce is my pronouns in a room. Full of six people on the only trans person doesn't feel so good for me. We might be less defensive and more receptive to what the needs of the community were trying to help actually need yeah and it's hard with that specific question because I think non binary people might say okay okay but I you know we like this situation. Where people will announce their pronouns. It might just be a conflict that is not easily easily reconciled because sometimes the things people need are in conflict and it's hard you know that's that's if there are there's a group of people that benefits fits and is made more comfortable made more accepted and all that by this pronoun practice of going around the room and doing that lot but somebody else who's going to have the opposite reaction like it might just be that. There's not like some obvious answer that makes everybody happy and in that that case like it's you know people are saying what they think and they're saying how they feel and we gotta do our best but I don't know that it's one of the assumptions I think some people have is that there's an easy answer to this and and we might just have to be comfortable with the fact that sometimes there's tensions here and we gotta do our best. You know I think that at the end of the day what the answer is going to be most most of the time that most of the situations were going to find ourselves in that require us to act in ways that we hope are are more role are going to be ambiguous and it's going to depend on the particular as of that situation and who the person that you're interacting acting with is what their preferences are and there's not going to be these hard and fast rules so it can be totally valid for Natalie to say actually really dear friends. I would prefer if you didn't do a pronoun exercise as a means of introduction. I'm the only trans person there you know what the she's the only trans person there. That's it that's the answer and then it can also be equally true that when there are non binary people in the room and they say actually actually I like the introduction of browns because I like being able to introduce myself as they I like the opportunity to normalize that in and break down the stigma Ma then that can be the answer in that situation and that be also just as correct and them not be in conflict just because they're different yeah I agree and and so yeah this cancel culture thing is like I think it's it definitely exists but the main takeaway that I want people the gift from this. I hope that you and I both made his point. Is that the idea that this is. Some left-wing problem in not anywhere else is just wrong and it absolutely does harm to have that misconception yeah. I think it's also really to point out. I think it's sometimes too easy to forget that the people on the other end of like the twitter handle are real. People and you know were hurt. I know like when we were kids right. People used to say like sticks and stones can break my bones but words can never ever hurt me but that's just fall. It's just not real factor there there. There was a Harvard study that was done that found verbal abuse can be just as is and sometimes more painful than physical abuse because physical abuse you can point to you can see the black and blue when you can say this is bad. This is rob and there's something sort of Cathartic Arctic and healing about being able to point to something tangible and say this is where the violation took place in it's bad where words because of their very intangible nece have away way of lingering and sort of taking root in a person's psyche and can do real harm. I think we'd all be better served by remembering that like the person on the other end no matter how flippant or fun that they're like online personality is is a real human being carrying a history of traumas and insecurities and wounds and like you just never know how something that might be perfectly benign of said to you is like unloading some like deeply buried personal trauma. They don't do that to people kind. It's not that hard yeah well. I certainly have have a lot of room to grow on that. I I sometimes I haven't been my best on twitter. I try and I fail but I but I will still try. It's hard you know 'cause I. It's twitter for me is just like you tend to be. It's short. It's not it's not good. It's not a good place to like. have an argument honestly like I. I think it's it's best. I and I only really you. Try to engage with people who are still you know extensively on my side like if we have some minor disagreement like that's what I try to use it for because you're not the there is no use. I don't think to going around and trying to argue with people who disagree with you on twitter like if they substantially disagree agree with you. It's the worst possible form for that. I think but that's a great point you make I I don't I I in no way mean to minimize the trauma of getting some of this backlash online. I think it can be substantial absolutely but I guess I'm just trying to. I'm just trying to outline like how my perspective shifted did a little bit and it has helped for me. You know to like to to try to look at it. In terms of okay who are the people you actually care about and what do they think and you know If it's maybe we'll be true that I've pissed off the people that I actually care about that could be absolutely true someday and that will that sucks and I'll have to lake apologize figure out where I went wrong or like God forbid. I actually think I'm right that makes it even worse. You know that would be the worst possible conflict is I think I'm I'm right and my whole audience thinks I'm wrong. That'd be that'd be tough to reconcile but like for the most part oftentimes in these anonymous spaces or pseudo anonymous spaces. You really don't no who is just a bit in the problem with the alright. Especially is they love assuming fake identities and assuming positions that they don't even then hold. It's the worst I hate it but once I knew that I realized that you really have to care a lot less about some of these things like you can't can't just nut pick as the phrase was coined to find like okay who's this who's the what I think is the worst argument against me on twitter and use that to formulate your whole world worldview and kind of just react to that which is what I think a lot of people do and I think it's harmful so I I agree. I think part of the Problem Lem is that too few of us are willing to admit like how fragile we are right and all of us. Our senses of cells are are far more fragile and vulnerable than we let on and none of us are particularly great at dealing with criticism yet yeah so right. It's like Oh my God. I'm barely being held together by like bubble gum and miracle right so sticks taped together right until like if you if you nudge me too hard like I may just like fall apart because like this is. This is a high wire act going on plunger for a leg. Yes I think one of the ways that like you know twitter and social media more broadly can be really toxics is that sometimes somebody may make like a relatively benign criticism that that's not intended to be harmful but our immediate impulses to get so defensive because we're so afraid right that. Oh my God we're going to be seen in is not good enough and everything's GonNa fall apart and everybody's going to know that I'm this fraud and you know we sort of like spiral and we don't generally deal well with even mild criticism and so I think you know one possible opportunity that we can take from this in order to sort of propel ourselves forward in a more positive way. Hey is you know there are people who are just trolls right we shouldn't you shouldn't worry about trolls when somebody criticizes you like Marcus. Aurelius has this line in the meditations right. There are two possible interpretations when somebody criticizes you either you know they've they've if they really knew. I think actually epic Titas he jokes. They really knew me. They would have listed all of my other faults right. He's like ideal of being very flippant about criticism but Marcus Aurelius says there's there's one of two ways that that we can interpret this. You know on the one hand. They're just wrong and they don't know anything about us. So why should I concern myself with things. That aren't true. I can just set that aside and that that's not my burden to bear and then it's well if this is true about me what makes it bad isn't that they've said it. It's that it's true and so I can use this opportunity as impetus to improve and that they haven't done me any harm in fact what they've done is brought to my attention that which I need to focus on improve on and it's really easy to say and do do when you're the emperor of the most powerful empire on earth at the time and I don't expect anybody to be able to do that perfectly here now but I think we would all do better to to be less defensive to criticism instead of going into overdrive defensive mode and then people needing to get canceled bolt good framework for dealing with our own vulnerability in these space sets while I I certainly agree with that and as the boomer dad would say I resemble that remark uh-huh but I I did the one thing I do want to say is I do disagree with that quote at least somewhat because I think doc perhaps back then wouldn't have been as much of an issue but certainly today trying to live out that that quoted to try to live by that is very difficult. If you're ever on the receiving end of somebody with like a hundred thousand followers saying something incorrect about you. It's very difficult to deal with It was very hard for me. I felt like okay this. Is You know it's it's. It's hard to just be like go I just want to you know that's not true so I don't need to worry about that. Well a whole bunch of people now think it's true like a lot more than I even have his followers so like what does that mean we know the truth and I don't think you know you know the the the stokes would say like that. It's not hard right where humans after all like. None of us are sages. We're all subject to our own psychological wiring of course it's a struggle on if it wasn't it wouldn't be the sort of thing that we have to practice right but at the end of the day Ryan if you turn off twitter and you you know you wake up next to your wife you take care of your children and your cordial podcast last year feed them dinner. You plan your next vacation. In what way materially has your life been altered by you know. XYZ John Doe thinking whatever they think about. I don't think we live in more than one realm now. I don't think it's true that we just live in this material stuff frighten front of his world. I think we have I think most people have a an identity online that matters to them and I agree. I agree seventy five percent with a quote. The only thing I guess what I would say is I don't I personally. I disagree that you can just say well. That's not a concern to me even though far more people than I ever even have as listeners now thinking correct thing about me. I'll just that's not true. I don't care I think that you can still adopt a form of this. Though that may be old Marcus Aurelius would might approve up which is like correct correct the record in a non flip outweigh as best as you can put it out there and then be like okay now. I've done everything I can. There's nothing that now if people still want I want to believe that I see I cannot do anything about it and that is what I had to go through. let me know if Marcus Aurelius would approve but that's what I did eventually was like all right. I'm just going to counter it with what what I think and say it in the best way I can and there are people who I who are guaranteed to not accept that and it was hard it actually I feel better better now that I've gone through that because once you realize that there are people who just are not going to agree with you in an are not and they want furthermore they want to have like a Gotcha take-down of this specific to you know like the online eight Chan type of person that they just want to hate. You and you can't do anything about it. It eventually was okay now. That's because I don't you know I haven't been like docks or whatever and I am not receiving death threats all that so I am definitely in even even even in harassment circles in a definitely relative position of privilege but it did help for me to realize like while I put it out there. That's the end of what I can do now. I'll just have to accept the one hundred thousand people think of really wrong thing about me so I mean would i what I think are really what says right like now. We've got like eight billion people on Earth. His answer would be like whether you know seven point nine billion people don't even think your significant enough to pay attention to so so why be upset about one hundred thousand people thinking this when there's seven point nine who can't be bothered right and leaves one hundred million people cool yeah so nine nine nine so you teach if you not math but you know but he also has this great passion similar to what you just sat right you can be the most beautiful emerald in the world and you're not less radiant because someone can't appreciate the way you sign the the the fault is not in you being an inadequate emerald your still as great an emerald as an emerald can be the fault fault lies and the person who is unable to appreciate your value and so to not internalize their area in judgement as reflecting something about you and I do think that that it's hard but I do think that if you sort of keep that in mind it does make it a little bit easier to not take some of these criticisms especially from around you know strangers on the Internet so personally yet well. I know you're speaking generally but I'm gonNA. Just pretend you called me beautiful shining emerald and that'll make make my day and there you go all right. I speaking of the tactile things in front of me. I've got kids yelling the house at our home then I gotta go take care of but this was a great discussion Russian Jamie. Thank you so much as always and I hope I hope all of you enjoyed it. I hope you've got if you've got questions or comments. I think we're getting to the point where we could do a nice Cuna with Jamie. That'd be really fun and but if we're not there yet maybe tomorrow when we do our debate episode. I'm sure there'll be more questions and comments can't wait. Hey tune in tomorrow after the debates or in the next morning and it'll be a lot of fun so thanks again. Jamie and I'll I'll talk to you tomorrow. It Mom uh-huh.

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#1221 - Jonathan Haidt

The Joe Rogan Experience

2:13:53 hr | 1 year ago

#1221 - Jonathan Haidt

"Hello friends. Welcome to the fuck. And show this episode. The podcast is brought to you by kettle and fire bone broth. I'm a big fan of bone broth and a big fan of this company. First of all this stuff is delicious, and you don't have to it's not frozen. It comes conveniently packaged in vacuum-sealed cartons that are sent right to your door, of course. But they can sit in your pantry unopened for up to two years. And because it's not frozen, you you don't have to pay a fortune for shipping lists and really good for you. They have ten thousand plus five star reviews from lawyer loyal customers who lawyer customers loyal the drink bone. Broth like myself every day, these fresh organic ingredients one hundred percent grass fed and finish bones. No bullshit additives. No, bullshit, preservatives hormones, antibiotics, etc. All their products are certified gluten free and really delicious. They have beef chicken. 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If you go to squarespace dot com slash Joe for a free trial. Then when you're ready to launch us the offer code Joe to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website, or domain. Hi, my guest today is Jonathan hate. He is a brilliant. Man. He is a professor and author. He is a social psychologist, and I'm in the middle of reading well sort of in the middle of reading two books. I put one of them aside. But the happiness hypothesis which is the one that I'm into right now is fantastic. And he's got a new one out that's called. That's right there. Get used to his voice. It's the coddling of the American mind with. I don't know say Greg's name. He says it in the podcast. But I forget the pronunciation, Greg Lukanov. I think that's it. And it's how how good intentions and bad ideas are setting up a generation for failure. Very interesting subject. The the happiness. I prophecies is really fantastic to I'm in the middle of that. And he then we talk about both books and just a a really really fascinating guy, and I really enjoyed talking to him. So please, welcome. Jonathon? Hey. Joe Rogan experience. Podcast. Hello. Thank you doing this, man. Really? Appreciate it. This is exciting. I don't think I've ever had a conversation as long as we're about to. I've been listening to the happiness. I ipod asus. Over the last few days, and I really really enjoy it. I'm really enjoying it. It's really fascinating stuff, man. But one thing I wanted to talk about because we're talking about it right before we got started was what's happening with Peter. But goes, Ian at Portland state university for folks don't know the story. He and I forget his two colleagues Jalen rose and James Lindsay. Yeah. They released these fake papers on like, homo, eroticism and rape culture in dog parks and just really proprietors stuff papers that almost like an article from the onion and some of them not only did they get peer reviewed and accepted into these journals. But they got loud it as being these amazing one did one guy. And now he's getting in trouble. That's right. Yeah. And we were just talking about it. And I would love to know your thoughts as a professor would. Sure. Yes. So for those who don't know, I guess most of your listeners, probably do, but it was called the grievance. Studies hoax because in the end this is one of the big issues going on Cadillacs. Hope. We'll talk about is what does it take to have good scholarship? And and the argument is that in some fields as long as you hate the right things and use the right words, you'll get published and that's not scholarship, that's activism. And so these three these three people who did this hoax. They were trying to show that that's the case. And so they wrote these papers one of them was actually a section of mine comp. Yes. And they just substituted in something about feminism for Nazism, something like that. And I don't remember that actually got manic. It's it at any rate. The point is they were trying to show that this is some of these fields me kademi are not really about scholarship. They're just about showing that you hit the right thing. There activists, and so there's no way to break in within those closed world. So they did a time honored thing. They did a hoax. They published date submitted. These papers they made up fake names. And a lot of them got accepted. And now what's happening is that the universe Portland state university. Which is only one of the three is at a is a is a professor he's a Sosa assistant professor, so he's not tenured. Of course, he has a lot of enemies. And of course, I don't know what's going on behind the scenes, but it looks like some of them wanted him investigated for violating the I R B the internal review board because the claim is they fabricated data. Because one of the paper says, I inspected the genitals of ten thousand dogs and the dog park, you know, it's like obviously absurd and he said, you know, in sixty three percent of the of the attempted hump because the thing the thing of the article was the idea that you know, you go to a dog park, and you see dogs humping each other. And they were interpreting this as rape as doggy rape. And so he's got all these know. Fake numbers in there. So is that for odd isn't that data fraud, and if you read so I'm writing a letter for a lot of us are now writing letters in support of of below zero. Thank you for doing that. But if you read the they his university committee was impaneled, and they looked at the literal definition of data fabrication, and it's possible that he does fall under that. But the point of of of this whole thing, so it's not I can't weigh in on whether or not technically, but but. These rules are put in place to prevent the corruption of the scientific record. And what he was doing was not going to corrupt the scientific record was done to correct it doing it to show that there's a huge problem. And then they were going to unveil it. So the question is is the university going to interpret it this in the worst possible in the narrowest possible way and thereby make fools of themselves. Look like laughingstocks or are they going to use some commonsense? And recognize this for what it wasn't wasn't data fabrication. It wasn't a fraud. Yet was an expose. That's right. Yeah. And I hope that they come to their senses. And they do have a point. I if I'm going to be completely objective about data fabrication. I mean, technically mean, maybe they could have written that paper without saying that they actually tested ten thousand genitals of you. But what's really important? I think is that they recognize that regular people are paying attention to this. Now people that aren't involved in this very insulated world. And they're going. This is crazy like imagine. If your children are going there and your children are being taught at this school. That's willing to accept this kind of nonsense like this. What happened at evergreen state is another example of that? It's right. It's incredibly damaging to them as university mean their their enrollment is sent down. That's right there. Funding is in real big trouble real bad situation for them. And if you talk to Brett Weinstein, it was a wonderful place just a few years ago when he was teaching there. That's right. And it's gotten crazier and crazier on these campuses to the point where nonsense is never been is not being questioned at all. It's just being accepted as just some some. It's almost like some religious dogma that you have to follow. So the weight I think the way to make sense of all of this is you have to always look at what game is being played. So human beings of. In small scale societies we have all kinds of abilities to function in those small scale societies one of those religious worship. We're very good at making something sacred circling around it another is war were very good at forming teams to fight the other side. And we love that so much. We create sports and video game battles with team versus team. So there's all these different games you can play and the truth seeking game is a is a really special one in a weird one. And we're not very good at it as individuals, and in my view, the genius of university is that it takes people and put them together in ways where each person each scientists aren't these super rational creatures that are looking to discontinue their own ideas. Now, we're not looking we wanna prove our ideas. We love our ideas, but university puts us together in a way in which you are really motivated to disprove, my ideas, and I'm motivated to disprove yours. You put us together we can't sloughed each other's confirmation bias, he's so the truth seeking games a very special. That can only be played in a very special institution with special norms. Okay. So we're doing this for you know, my whole time in academe. I started grad school in nineteen eighty-seven at the university of Pennsylvania. And then just in the last few years. It's like some people are playing this really different game. And it's like if you know if I'm playing tennis, and I hit the ball to you like we're in a seminar class. I give you a question. I challenge you you come back, and we go back and forth and in the process we learned so that's like kind of like playing tennis. So I'm doing this. And then suddenly like some tackles me like what that you? Don't do that. In tennis. No, no, they're playing football. You see and football. It's a much rougher game. And you're trying to destroy the others. I'm not really in football. But I'm saying, you know, and so as norms of combat come in and what I mean, but his political combat as some people within universities see that what we're doing. Here is not seeking truth. We're trying to fight fascism or we're trying to defeat conservatism or. We're trying to fight racism or whatever some sort of a political goal and these games are completely incompatible. And so that's why this madness has erupted where you see professors saying something, maybe it's a little provocative going back to Socrates that was kind of the point was to provoke. And you see these bizarre. Reactions emotional reactions groups organized to demand that a professor be fired because we're playing different games. Yeah. How did this start? How did it start? Because it seems like there has to be an event or something or a trend. Well, so so the the book that the book that I put out in September with Gregg Lukianov, the coddling of the American mind, I read the first chapter that as well. Okay. Well, thanks for admitting. That was only one chapter usually. Donovan to that one. Because the unfortunately, I was I was reading that. And then I got on a flight and I just wanted to zone out said listen to this one on tape. Okay. Well, I'll tell you all about it. But the key thing is that that book the calling the American mind with something that we wrote because Greg began observing this weird stuff happening in universities in two thousand fourteen it all starts in two thousand fourteen. Most of your listeners have heard about safe spaces microaggressions bias response teams trigger warnings. All that stuff that stuff. Pre didn't exist before twenty fourteen it just begins creeping, and then and then it kind of blows up in two thousand fifteen and so our whole book is an explanation of why why did this happen? And so to your question about was there an event Iran, sir, is there are six different causal threads. There's like all these social trends some going back to the eighties and nineties that came together around twenty fourteen so that students are little different. And then there are certain forces acting on them that are different. And so you get this weird new game. You get this explosive mix you get some students who are actually very drawn to grievance studies. And so. Very briefly like the it's things like rising political polarization so left and right never particularly liked each other. But in the seventies and eighties. If you look at surveys done of how much you hate people. Now, they're side. It's not that intense. It begins going up in the in the eighties, and then especially after two thousand it's gone up. Very steeply at the same time university faculty who've always leaned left throughout the twentieth century. But was only a lean and in the nineties it begins shifting much further left. So that now faculties especially in the social sciences and humanities are pretty purified. Their overwhelmingly left so you have a more left-leaning university at a time when left right hostility is getting more and more intense. And so any question that has a political Valence? Now, there's a lot more people who want to do the football game not the truth seeking and when we got to defeat the other side don't give me nuance. Don't give me data. We know what we believe in debt. We're going to you know, so. So he got this changing political situation. And then you've got a couple of threads about what we've done kids. So I'd have this is a whole nother area conversation for us, but we biscuit took away free play and gave them social media. The Saint basically kids who were born in nineteen ninety five and after jen's e they had really different childhoods, and they're not as prepared for conflict and college, and we'll get into that later, but you put all these things together. You get kids who are much more anxious and fragile much more depressed coming onto campus at a time at much greater political activism and now these grievance. Studies ideas about America's a matrix of oppression and look at the world in terms of good versus evil. It's more appealing to them. And it's that minority of students. They're the ones who are initiating a lot of the movements. It's such a strange time to be on the outside and watch this because a person like myself is always counted on intellectuals and professors and people like yourself to. To sort of make sense things and to reinforce the idea that freedom of speech and free debate or critical aspects to knowledge and one of the things that's most disturbing when you see in schools is people that are even marginally right-leaning or centrist being called Nazis and being silenced. And they're pulling fire alarms when they're speaking. We even people like Christina Hoff Sommers who's a feminist gets shouted down and people yelling at her and Karner fascism. It's just very strange. It's very strange to watch the outside. And it's also very strange to not see any pushback by the professors so sitting here and seeing this happen thinking these poor kids they're going to have to go into the workplace. They're going to have to the right now during this very insulated environment. They're going to escape that environment when they graduate, and then they're either gonna push this ideology into the workforce, which do see now, that's especially. Yeah. That's right now. That's right. I know it's strange to look at it from the outside and believe me it stranger from the inside. But one thing I can say that might be helpful here is that from the outside. What you see is the news reports. And the news reports are going to be very selective. And so especially what happens is because you know, university that have always leaned left. And so the right-leaning media have always been suspicious. So the right-leaning media has huge coverage of every little thing. And sometimes it's it's exaggerated. Sometimes it's misinterpreted. The most time there was something there left leaning media tends to ignore it. And so I go around the country, and you know, people in the right expect. Oh my God. It's chaos and mob violence on campus. Which isn't true that's an exaggeration. And the left is like problem. What problem there's nothing changing. And so I think the key thing to keep in mind here is that there's about four thousand five hundred institutions of higher education in this country. Most of them are not selective schools. They'll take anyone who comes. And in those schools not much is happening. But if you go to the elite liberal arts colleges in the northeast and the west coast, then usually something is happening. And so at heterodox academy. It's a group that I co-founded professors that are pushing that bipartisan we have as many people on the on the left is on the right? We created a map of where all the shout outs have taken place, and they're all right in the northeast or along the Pacific coast like from evergreen, snow down to Berkeley and all that. And then a couple in Chicago. So from in most of the country, this stuff is not happening most schools, the culture hasn't really changed much. But at the top schools in general, it has so that's one thing to keep in mind. There is a moral panic on the right about this which doesn't mean that there's not something real the really is a huge problem. But it's not as pervasive as is sometimes made out to be. So is it a Kintu looking at violence in the news media like you when you read about violence in terms of robberies and burgers. In general, you're not gonna encounter much in your life. The the the world is a large place, but we concentrate on these really bad moments. Yeah, it's a little bit like that. Except that. You know, one of the reasons that we took child we took free play from kids is that we were afraid that they'd be abducted and that almost net that was so rare. And but we got a lot of coverage of that in the eighties and nineties, and we changed our behavior because of that and that was a gross overreaction the situation on campus is is not like that. It's your odds of being nailed are much higher than that. And so you know, I hear every day or at least every week. I get an Email from a professor who says, you know, I I used a metaphor in class and somebody reported me like, you know, and so once this happens to you, you you you pull back you change your teaching style. What we're seeing on campus is a spectacular collapse of trust between students and professors. And when we don't trust each other. We can't we can't do our job. We can't we can't risk provoking being provocative. Raising ideas, raising uncomfortable ideas, we have to play it safe. And then everybody suffers is social media partially to blame. Because It's Hugh. She social is a huge part of this problem. So. In a couple of ways. So one is the generational thing that we have a kids. Born after nineteen ninety-five got this in middle school. It had a variety of effects on them. So kids coming in are more conversant with call out culture. And that's a big part of this. The other thing though, is that we used to have what you would call a reasonable person standard. So, you know, so, you know for professor what's one? So professor just wrote to me recently. He's he, you know, he got frustrated while trying to explain something he said shoot me now and student was offended by this. Because are you making fun of people coming suicide, and okay, you know, had she come to him and said, you know, professor, I know you didn't mean anything, but that was kind of incentive that would have been great like that's the way to handle it. But for this generation raised with call out, culture and social media, you almost never hear of a student coming to someone else in private because you don't get credit for that. Yeah. So you only get haul home out public. Weekly. And so that's why we're all walking on edge shells. Because most of our students are great most of them are fine. But if I have a class of three hundred students electric class, I know that some of them subscribed to this new call out culture safety ISM morality, and so if I say one thing, it's not a reasonable person standard. It's a most sensitive person standard. I have to teach to the most sensitive person in the class. It's also that person has the opportunity to score. Right. They'll outlier throw up that virtue flag like of got one on the board here. Look good. I did I nail the professor on saying shoot me now. And now, I'm a hero and Zayd this a safer space for everybody else that that's right? And so, and so that's really what is messing up its own many levels of society. And the fact that a lot of these problems the difficulties of democracy, the rise of authoritarian populism. There are a lot of weird trends, they're happening in multiple countries. And I think it's the rise of of devices and social media is the main way we can explain why it's so similar across. Stories. Do you think that this is a is this some sort of a trend that will eventually correct itself when these kids get out into the real world, and then go through a whole generation of that? And then people realize the error of their ways and the disastrous results of having these unprepared or emotionally unprepared kids. No. I'm not confident that it will not correct itself. I think that once we understand it. I think they're writing things we can do to change it. But I think here's the way to understand why it's not going to change it self. So so I'm a I'm a social psychologist is my main my main area, but I I love all of the social sciences. I love thinking about complex systems and systems. Composed of people are really different from systems composed of stars or neutrons or anything else. And so. If you have a complex system composed of people, these people are primarily working to increase their prestige. So I mean, once we have our needs for, you know, food and things like that are set where we're always interacting in ways to make ourselves. Look good and to protect ourselves from being nailed, you know, or accused of something so we're always doing reputation management. Now think about in any group what gives you prestige? And so if you look in a group of teenagers, you might have a group in which it's athletics. And so if that's how you get prestige. Then all the kids are going to be working out in training and practicing, and it doesn't hurt anybody that doesn't impose an external cost on anyone else, but you can have some really sick prestige economies. And so there's a there's enough Niagara fee about a film an indigenous population in the Philippines by sh-. Shelly result, though, is the anthr- apologised. I think it's called knowledge and passion. About the along. Good, which is a name for a tribe in the Philippines, and in this tribe. It's a head hunting tribe. They find people in cut off their heads, not just for fun for prestige. So in a lot of societies you have a lot of male initiation boys have to do something to become a man. And if the thing you have to do to become a man is you have to cut off someone's head. Okay. So that imposes rather a heavy cost on outsiders. All right. So this is a sick culture. This is not one where we can say. Oh, well, that's just the way they do things. Okay. This has to stop and ideally, they would cut off a stranger's head like they find someone from other tribe or someone from government agency that just cut off his head. But if necessary if there's a fight or if there's somebody within their larger community that can also get you points. So this is a really sick culture. Now head. Call it culture is not quite that bad. But it's the same logic. Okay. So if you have a group of teenagers or college students who are all struggling for prestigious, we all are. And if you get a subculture in which the way, you get prestige is by calling someone out showing that they're racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, Islamaphobia, whatever it is. If you can catch them, you get the points. What you're doing? Here is your imposing external cost on others. And that's what makes you so insufferable because you are playing your game. But I'm paying the cost of your game. And so that I think it's hard people aren't going to break out of that themselves. But once we understand what's happening. I think in a sense, we can all come together and call out call out culture and say stop stop imposing these costs on earth. How would how are we going to reach those kids if professors are so terrified to speak out into caused controversy in class and no one wants to criticize him because do you risk your job? You risk them organizing against you in how does this shift? So so I'm hopeful that we can shift it because most people hate it. So even the people who do it recognize that they're always on eggshells. They can be next. There's the tendency of people in this culture two, you know, as we say they eat their own. They've engine turn on each other. And the mental health costs of it. I mean, there are a number of essays that have been written by people who sort of left that. And it sounds miserable to be inside. You're always your there's no humor. There's no fun. It's always, you know, hyper, serious angry. And so so I think that I think if we can if we can raise kids or encourage them to see the games that social media makes them do and give them a vocabulary. I don't know what we come up with some catchy terms for it. But give them a vocabulary. So they can they can like, oh, you're, you know, you're calling out or I don't know. That's. Honky, but we can help them label this behavior it market. Exactly. That's there's patterns that you see in in people that. From a distance. Like if I look at it when I look at them, objectively there's these these patents. Go, oh, that's one of those maga- guys. He's one of those. You know, he's got an American flag with an eagle in his avatar on Twitter. And if you go through his page, it's all like talking great about police and criticizing any money talks about about trumpets. It's strange. It's like these patterns of behavior these predetermined patterns their stereotypes, not just stereotypes like they've fallen into a well oiled slick groove. That's very easy to predict if you're one of those people it's it's super easy predict that you're going to be pro second amendment yet super easy to predict that you're probably going to be skeptical about climate change. There's all these different things that go along with these patterns of behavior and you see him on the right? You see him on the left, and it's it's weird to watch. It's weird to watch on the outside. It's like this is such an easy pattern. Slip into. Yeah. That's right. So there's data from the pew surveys. They've been measuring attitudes of Americans since the eighties or nineties, but they've been publishing the series on polarization in which they show that in the nineties. If you knew somebody's attitude on say gun control that would only predict their attitude on abortion a certain percent and a lot of people on the left. Let's say would hold six of the ten leftist attitudes and same on the right, but gradually by the time, you get to around twenty ten it's like, if you know one attitude, you know, all and that's in part, just because if you turn up the volume, so we evolved to do us versus them, and the more we see, you know, if it's us America versus them, communist, Russia or Nazi Germany. We'll, you know, then we all come together. And that's great. I go Hejin and trust. But as that fades away, and as us versus Dan became increasingly left versus right. And as we lost, the liberal Republicans, and the conservative Democrats those used to exist. I until the eighties nineties as we lost them. Once it becomes us. Purchase them is left versus right now. If you only hold your team's position on six out of ten items, you're a traitor and see better get with the program, and so the pressures for conformity the pressures to agree with your team on everything have been steadily rising. And that means there's no nuance and we can't do higher education without nuance. We can't do college without freethinking and the ability to say, well, you know, what wait a second. Maybe they do have a point on this on this thing. And that's one of the reasons why it looks so weird from the outside and why it's getting so unpleasant from the inside when you're teaching classes and a subject comes up that may be controversial. Do you do have like this overwhelming feeling that you're treading on dangerous ground? Yeah. So I taught second and one at the university of Virginia, and I would do all I would take them. Into sex differences origin of sex, sexual orientation. I would even do race differences, and you know, because there was a reasonable person standard, and I trusted my students, and they trusted me. We had a great time. And we covered a lot a lot of stuff. But now, and then I moved to New York University in two thousand eleven when my last previous book, the righteous mind came out, and it's not a it's not about UVA versus NYU is just about the changing time. Now, as I said, I have to teach to the most sensitive students. So I teach a course on business ethics on professional responsibility. And we have a section on on discrimination and employment law, it's important to cover it. We have to cover it. You know, NBA students have to know where the lines are what the law is. And yeah, I'm kinda scared when I teach that because I'd like to get into all sorts of things I'd like to get into. Well, you know, what do numerical disparities mean if there's a gender difference in, you know, in the percentage of tech, but not in the percentage of non tech employees. In Silicon Valley. What does that mean? I would like to talk about that. But if a single student thinks that I am denying the existence of sexism, they could be offended by that. And in every bathroom at NYU. There's a sign telling them how to report me anonymously, and they put these up in twenty sixteen in response to student requests. And that means that all professors on notice that they can be reported anonymously at any moment, but children. Well, these are well, I'm not going to call them children. I mean, my students are MBA students, but but the undergrads seventeen seventeen to twenty one year olds for the undergrads. Yes. That's right. Barely not children anymore. That's right. And there's an incentive to this. This what we were talking about before. Is this incentive that gives them attention? They get prestige. They get value from it. And this this culture encourages these things. That's right. And this is a terrible lesson to teach them. So, you know, the subtitle of our book, it's called the coddling, the American mind, how good intentions and bad ideas are setting up a generation for failure. And so these microaggressions reporting system, that's basically what it is a micro aggression reporting system has a good intention behind it. There are cases of professors who make ethnic jokes. Okay. They should stop doing that. I mean, maybe that was okay thirty years ago. You know, there are there are there are legitimate complaints. And and faculty do there should be some accountability, some responsibility. So there's a good intention behind it. But it's usually based on no empirical evidence, and because it's based on pressure applied to a bureaucracy. Not by a committee thing. How can we improve the climate for everyone? No, no. It's like we make these demands. And we demand ten things in the admits. Great says, okay, we'll give you five of them. There's not thought put into what happened if we give the students in east German style anonymous reporting system, and so everybody's on notice that they can be reported any point what might happen to the social dynamics like nobody thought that through. So the net the net effect again is the spectacular collapse of trust on campus to be in the middle of that. It's going to be so bizarre having taught for so many years before that into watch almost like this virus overtake, the institutions. That's what it felt like, and that's why. So Greg Lukiana came to me at twenty fourteen so Greg I'll just briefly tell this story of the book, Greg is the president of the foundation for individual rights in education. He fired they defend free speech rights on campus. And they were always pushing back against administrators who would say, oh, you know, we need a free speech zone, and there was a freighter liability, and so but suddenly in two thousand fourteen. Greg start seeing students pushing back on on speech rates saying we want, you know, ban that speaker, you know, we need a safe space. If debate is going to be held new stuff weird stuff and Greg who is prone to depression. He had a suicidal depression in two thousand seven he's hospitalized when he gets out of the hospital. He learns CBT cognitive behavioral therapy. And in that, you learn these like fifteen or so cognitive distortions like catastrophes ING over generalizing black and white thinking so Greg Lawrence to not do those himself. And then he goes back to record fire and then in two thousand fourteen he sees students saying, oh, if you know if Christina half summers comes to campus, you know, people will die or they'll be people will be harmed injured. And so there's this this new way of thinking, Greg, thanks how how are students learning to do this like are we teaching them on campus to think in these distorted ways? And if we are. Isn't that gonna make them depressed? So Greg comes to talk to me in may of twenty fourteen to tell me this idea. And I think it's really brilliant. I think it's a great idea 'cause I'd be going to see this. You know, the safe spaces the microaggressions, the trigger warning requests. So we we wrote up our our essay submitted to the Atlantic. It came out in August two thousand fifteen and it was like we just seen the first outbreaks of of a virus. And then in the fall of two twenty fifteen it it's a becomes an epidemic. And so many of your listeners will have heard of or seen the videos of what happened at Yale in in in November two thousand fifteen when Erica crosstalk kiss wrote an Email saying that way a second Yale is telling you how to do your Halloween, costumes. Maybe we should think through ourselves. Maybe you're old enough to make your own decisions some students get very upset they protest. They bring demands to the president they screening at her husband. So it was then when that protests was successful when the president of Yale. Basically said, you know, we we're wrong. You're right. We've alad at your narrative, we'll give you as much as we can of your demands when when that happened, then the protests went national and so throughout two thousand sixteen you have you have groups of students making these demands demanding microaggressions reporting systems. So that's when NYU put in its systems, it's microaggressions reporting systems. So that Gail event wasn't just an isolated incident. It really was the spark. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. So there's all these tr threads coming together. Didn't come out of nowhere. All these things are happening. It's almost like the, you know, the whole the whole room is like almost at combustion temperature. And then Yale was the spark that sent a national. What's crazy about yell is anybody that's objective? This Washington from the outside is like these students are out of control they're screaming at this professor like this is supposed to be a safe place, and you fuck this up, and they're they're being incredibly hostile and aggressive towards him surrounding him. And when when you watch that from the outside, I think we'll obviously they've got a punish. The students. I mean, they do the opposite. Yeah. That's right. That's well. It doesn't make sense from the outside. But again, you have to look at different games being played. So so I went to Yale. I graduated from there in nineteen eighty-five. I loved it. I was in Davenport college is one of the twelve residential colleges. And there were a lot of intellectual that would happen in the colleges like the master of the college or the dean of the college would bring in all kinds of people to speak. So they were intellectual spaces as well as sort of homelike or not exactly home like transitional places where they were. They were places that you lived. So the yield that I knew was a place that taught me to think in lots of different ways, and it just was constantly blowing my mind like, my my first, economics course, it was like, wow. Here's a new pair of spectacles that I can put on. And suddenly, I see all these prices and supply, and I never I never learnt to think that way I learned about Freudian psychology or sociology. So a good education is one that lets you look at our complicated world through multiple perspectives. And that makes you smart, that's what a liberal arts education should do. But what I see increasingly happening, especially at elite schools is the dominance of a single story. And that single-story is life is a battle between good people and evil people or rather good groups and evil groups and it's a zero-sum game. And so if the bad groups have more it's because they took it from the the good groups. And so the. Point of everything is to fight the bad groups, bring them down create equality, and this is a terrible way to think in a free society. I mean that might a worked, you know, in biblical days when you got the moa bites killing the Jebusites or whatever, but you know, we we live in an era in which we've discovered that that the pie can be grown a million fold. And so to teach students to see society is a zero sum competition between groups is primitive and destructive now in your book. You you actually identify the moment where these microaggressions sort of made their appearance, and they were initially a racist thing. So yes. So the idea of microaggressions goes back to I forget, the Scott an African American sociologist in the seventies. I coined the term, but it really becomes popular in two thousand seven article by Gerald wings, sue, peaches college. And so he. He talks about this concept microaggressions, and there are two things that are good about the concert are useful. And so one is as racism as explicit racism has clearly gone down by any measure, explicit racism is plummeted in American across the west. But you know, there could still be subtle revealed. A racist claims so perfectly defined the difference between explicit racism. Well, explicit racism is calling someone a racial slur. Or I hate you. Because ex. Ex-? Identified because of they've been reported as crimes or well. I would just say that. If you're a member of a culture, you can tell when someone is saying something to insult to put down at express hostility. Right. And that's something a judgment. We can make right. And as that's become socially unacceptable in most circles. So explicit racism is way way down. Right. But how I'm sorry. But the moment question is how are they measuring us? That. Well, how do you measure microgravity? How do you measure even explicit racism? Yeah. Have you say it's down. Certainly attitude measures. So they're so surveys done in private. How would you feel if you know, if a black family moved in next door if Filipino family moved down? So how would you feel if your child married, you know, a Jew a Muslim so explicit surveys show? It certainly I mean if when you do surveys of people's experience. People have of race of every race. When they report how often this happens to every year. The numbers are actually fairly low. So there are ways of measuring experiences of racism, right? How accurate these because like I used to joke about this? But the idea of the problem surveys is you're only getting information from people so stupid. They take surveys coups taking surveys. So some surveys is subject to that. But in general, if you if you a question from multiple perspectives and say in one condition, you pay them for an accurate answer or not when one condition they're anonymous or they're not. So you can get a sense of how much the answer moves around depending on external conditions. And so the point of just wanted to make is that the acceptability of using the N word or other things, you know, if a bunch of white people are talking the acceptability is in the N word, I think has gone way down in general. Would you agree with that? Yes. Yes. And tremendously I mean, I agree with. The the sentiment, and I agree with the the trend that there is absolutely a trend away from racism, but I was just curious as how they measured it. Yeah. I'm not an expert in that area. So I'm assuming it surveys and analysis of discourse ultimately for everyone's sake. I mean, even for the sake of the people that are in embroiled in all this controversy and chaos. It would be fantastic across the board. If there was no more sexism. There was no more racism. There was no more any of these things. I mean, it would be wonderful. Then we could just start treating humans as humans like this is just who you are. You're just a person. No, one cares. That'd be what a wonderful world we live in. If this was no longer in issue at all beautifully. Put how does that get how does that ever get through? So we were getting there. I mean, that's what the twentieth century was about. So you and I are shaped by I don't know. How old you are? But I'm on one. Okay. I'm fifty five we were shaped by late twentieth century and the late twentieth. Century was a time in America in which you know, earlier on there was all kinds of prejudice. I mean, when I was when I was born just right before you were born it was legal to say you can't eat here because you're black. And so that change nine hundred sixty four sixty five but. It used to be that we had legal differentiations by race. And then those were knocked down, but we still had social and it used to be that if you were gay there was something humiliating had to be hidden. I mean, so if you look at where we were in one thousand nine hundred sixty sixty three when I was born, and then you look at where we got by two thousand. I mean, the progress is fantastic on every front. So that's all I mean, when I say we were moving in that direction and to your point about, you know, wouldn't it be great? If there was none of this. We just treat people like people. Okay. Yeah. That was the twentieth. Century idea is let's let's get past these tribal identification. And what is so alarming to me? Now is that on campus it began on campus? But it's spreading elsewhere. They're an against not everywhere on campus. It's mostly in the grievance. Studies departments they're teaching students the opposite. They're teaching students. Don't treat everyone like a person people are their identities, and you can tell somebody by looking at people. And so, you know, if they're good or bad. This. I think is the opposite of progress. Well, it's it's also the differences between us a really fascinating the differences between men and women. I think are some of the more interesting. Explanations for human behavior, and I'm not meaning that people must be defined by their gender defined by their sex. But it is interesting when you look at these gigantic groups like why certain people tend to gravitate towards certain occupations or certain types of behaviour or certain hobbies. It is really fascinating. That's right. And if we were playing the truth seeking game. If all we cared about is trying to understand things, we would do the research, and we'd figure out what to people like in and do left-handers versus right handers have different preferences. Probably not as far as I know two boys and girls have different preferences. Yeah. They're really big do men and women have different do enjoy different things. Yeah. So we could take that we could say our goal is to create a free society. This is this is what the word liberal, traditionally meant a society, which people are free to construct a life that they wanna live. And so if you're born when race or another that should not in any way, be limitation and in the twenty. Essentially made a lot of progress towards that ideal. Same Bush keeps saying we did. Meaning that you you're plying that it ended that the progress. Hit a wall. Yeah. I shouldn't imply that because overall I think the trends are unstoppable. Right. So I don't want to say the things reverse. I agree. But you feel like there's a slowdown or glitch. Yeah. I think that so so in chapter three of the coddling, Greg, and I look at identity, politics and one thing we really try to do is. There's all these loaded terms, and you know, if if somebody says social Justice warrior, okay, you know, a lot about them if they said that like they're going to come at it and say, oh, those s j ws and and we don't do any of that. We we say. There are people on campus who are very focused on identity issues and on injustices based on identity, and that's great. And there's a lot to be concerned about and the right to do that. Now, how did they do it? And there's two different ways. You can either do what we call common enemy identity politics. Which is where you say life is a battle between good groups and evil groups let's divide people by by race. So it's basically it's straight versus everyone else men versus all the other genders and white versus everybody else. And so you look at, you know, the straight Weltman there, the problem all the other groups must unite to fight the straightway, man. So that's one of the core ideas of intersection -ality. And so we say in the book is that leads to eternal conflict much better is to is an identity politics based on common humanity. So we don't say oh to hell with it entity politics. We say you have to have identity politics until you have perfect, Justice and equality. You have to have a way for groups to. Organiz to push back on things to demand. Just that's fine. But if you do it by first emphasizing common humanity. That's what Martin Luther King. Did. That's what Pauli Murray. Did. That's what Nelson Mandela did this. So this wonderful, man. Marriage was a gay black possibly trans civil rights leader in began the forties. She says when my when my opponents draw a small circle to exclude me, I shall draw a larger circle to include them I shall shout for the rights of all mankind. And this is again when Martin Luther King did he's relentlessly appealing to our white brothers and sisters. He's using the language of America of Christianity. Start by saying what we have in common and then people's hearts are open where within a community. Now, we can talk about our difficulties. So it's the the rise of common enemy identity politics on campus in the grievance. Studies departments especially that I think is an alarming trend another thing. That's alarming to me is the redefining of terms like. Sexism and racism or sexism against men is impossible racism against white people's impossible. Hey, this redefining as these prejudices only exist if you're coming from a position of power, that's really weird. And it also it opens up the door to treating people as an other literally the people that are the victims of racism are now using racism against other people and feeling justified because of it, and and having a bunch of people that will agree with them that this is in fact, not racism, and this is pushing back on white privilege and saying all these different weird things that you feel really comfortable in saying these open racist generalizing things about white people or about white men or about fill in the blank. But whatever group you're you're attacking, and it's it's really strange. It's really strange as see. But again, it makes sense if you look at the different games. Yes. So if you're on university, and you think you're playing the truth game. And philosophers are great at this. They're always unpacking terms. And so you might try to define racism or any sort of ISM, and a common sense view would be an expression of hostility or resentment or limitation on group based on their identity. But that's if you're playing the truth seeking game if you're playing the politics game or the warfare game. You want to define the terms to give your side maximum advantage. So there's a wonderful social psychologist named Phil tat lock at Penn at Wharton. And he talks about these different mindsets. We get into one of them. He calls the intuitive prosecutor. So if if I'm if my goal as a scholar is to prosecute, my enemies and max me convict them. And I am always trying to defend seven different identity groups against the straight white men. They're the they're the accused. I want to define my terms to make it maximum easy to convict. And so I'm going to say racism and microaggressions it doesn't matter. What the intent was all that matters is the impact all that matters about the person felt that way as long as someone's offended. I get to charge you with a crime. So and also on racism, you can say as as a lot of kids are learning in high school that these days racism is prejudice plus power. So by definition, a black person or a gay person, or whatever any cannot be racist or whatever other term because they don't have power, regardless of their social class actually being taught. Yeah. Yeah. So the professors, this is mouth you're saying. So this is taught in a number of high schools. My nephews went to Andover. They learnt this -fensive thing. Yes. To the children. It's not just that it's offensive and obviously hypocritical. It's that it's crippling. Yes. I mean, can you imagine can you? So you've you've got kids but you have two daughters because you have three daughters. Can you imagine giving your daughter's a cloak of invulnerability? Yeah. Where you say you put this on? Now, you get to attack others, but no one can touch you like this is going to warp their development, power corrupts and even moral rhetorical power corrupts as well. How is this being taught the I mean how how is this houses, except as a part of a curriculum? So because the goal is not truth. The goal is victory over racism. Let's say, and so if that's the case you're going to focus on educating kids about their white privilege and making end, so that's what a lot of these privilege exercises. Are you line kids up by their privilege, and you and your your goal is to make the straight white boys feel bad about their privilege and therefore talk less take up less space their privilege. This is what we're talking about. Earlier about the goal is no racism, the privilege. Only exists if there's racism like instead of concentrating on the privilege it only exists if people do preferentially treat certain preferential treatment towards certain races. If that doesn't exist at all, then white privilege doesn't exist. What I'm not? I'm not sure I'd agree on that. So we also well, so we had a funny episode last night. And so my wife, and I were out in LA we were invited to the Golden Globes by by a friend. And so we're here in L A. So we we. We go to bed in the hotel room and at two in the morning guys pounding on the door Saint Claude Lemieux it's me. It's me, Andy I wake up and go to the door, and I and I say wrong room. And he can't hear me. So I opened the door a crack and to show him, you know, like, look I own. I don't know who you are, and you know, some drunk some drunk guy. And and I said, you know, you've got the wrong room. And I went back to bed and breakfast this morning. My wife says why did you open the door? Like, how could you have done that? I said, you know, we're in a nice hotel. I mean, what's what's going to happen? And she made it clear like a woman would never have done that like you as a man you have the ability to go out in the world and engage with a certain that. I don't have as yes. And that's a great example. So there is a male privilege. Sure. Exists even if there's no sexism. Yeah. That's an interesting. That's an interesting example. That's a that's a sexism one. But that's also a physical danger one. That's there's a there is a difference between just the way women have to go out into the world being vulnerable. And also being the target of of. Just a male sexual attention to very different thing. It's an aggressive person dangerous thing. Yeah. But I think you could say the same thing about race in this way. So because there's racism though. Well, okay. Okay. You're right. If if there was absolute zero racism anywhere, but whenever going to get to that. But but the thing that we're worried about is the racism, so if you worried about if someone's if you say you have white privileged well that only exists if are being dealt with in a racist manner. So if you're a black person, and there is racism that's being directed towards you. And it's not being directed towards me. Then you can say, well, I have white privilege, but if there's no racism directed towards anybody that doesn't exist anymore, initials, racism ES, Brian. Okay. But look, I think it's it's helpful to always try to look at it from the other person's point of view to listen to their arguments. And so for example, when you and I go into any social encounter it never. Occurs to me that something you know, something's gonna come up in someone's going to call me a Kaik. Let's say right now because I'm Jewish and it just it just never crosses my mind that someone's going to humiliate me because I'm Jewish, but if you're black even if you're in a very taunt society at some point someone is going to make an assumption. It might not be that might be. So elm saying is you, and I don't there's certain things we don't have to think about and that whereas if we were black or other identities or visibly gay or you know. There would be the risk of spoiling of a social interaction. So I'm totally comfortable saying we should be telling our kids about this. But what follows from it? What follows from it. Should we therefore be telling kids? Okay. So, you know, you know. You know, judge people based on their appearance be suspicious of people based on their race and gender. That's where that's where I get off the but the bus. That's where I say. Now, we're really hurting kids. We should be turning down the moralism, and we're turning it up. Right. But what I'm getting at is pointing at someone and saying you have white privilege if they are not racist. You're you're you're you're giving this person. You're you're putting these this person in a category that really only exists in the face of racism or the real problem is racism. Yes. With the male female thing is a very different thing that male privilege. I think is way more slippery. And wait because it's biologically based there's a creepy to men, and there is and he's much as a nice guy as I'm sure you are. And I try very hard to be a nice guy. Everyone. Just kidding. But every woman's encounter creeps. Yes. It's it's inevitable because it's there's a game being played this pursuing of sexual pleasure or of sexual encounters. This is doesn't exist or shouldn't exist with races. The just the the real problem in my eyes is racism, and if we could figure out a way to just complete obviously, it's not going to let people are flawed. They're going to be in until there's some sort of new way that we interface with each other. That eliminates lies and deception and allows each other to completely understand each other's feelings and appreciate them, which may happen someday. Probably technologically driven till that happens. There's going to be a certain amount of it. But the real enemy is racism. It's not white people just getting lucky. Yeah. Okay. But I would say not that we shouldn't acknowledge. Yeah. Yeah. So you said earlier about how definitions change. So we are evolving as society, we're getting less, sexist and racist. And so our threshold. For what counts as sexist and racist going down. That's a good thing that should happen. But I think what we need to call attention to is that when you if you lower the threshold faster than the reality changes, then you make progress, but yet people feel worse and worse. And so, and so I think that's part of what's happening on campus. That makes sense the the prog so the the the loudest protests tend to happen at the most progressive schools, it's places like Middlebury in Yale in Berkeley. And you know, so I think that we are we are if you bring in a diverse student body, and we're all trying to diversify. We're all in every school. I know of is trying very hard to create a very diverse student body. So if we do that, and we bring people in and we give them a common humanity approach. It's going to work. Great diversity if you handle it. Well, you can confer many benefits. But if you handle it wrong, if you try to make people see race and other groups more, and you attach moral valances to it. And you give them a lot of the stuff that they get in the grievance. Studies of course, they're going to be angry. And of course, they're gonna feel that people hate them. It's a terrible thing to bring people into a university and to teach them, you know, what this institution is white supremacist. People have implicit bias against you. Wherever you go. People are going to hit you like, no, this is a really bad thing to do to create an open trusting inclusive diverse environment, right? The right thing to do would be to emphasize. How foolish racism really is about. How damaging it is not just to our culture. But. Use an individual to look at people in that way, and not open, your heart and your mind to all these different races. And I think one of the worst examples of modern racism that's gone on checked is what's going on at Harvard with Asian students where Asian students are instead of. Instead of being completely neutral in terms of how they approach all these races. Asian students actually have to try harder to get into Harvard because there's so many of them and they're doing so well they're being punished for excelling, which is really racist. I mean, it's it's racist against the people that are doing the best which is really crazy. And they're a minority, which is even more crazy, and because of their culture because they're so hard working, and they're not in general, the the not the type to be really loud in protests these things right? It's gone on target to the point where now they've had to have a class action lawsuit. That's right. That's right. So you know, my hope again, I'm a twentieth century person. My hope is that as time goes on. We'll get past all you have to be at twenty-first-century person. Oh, well, okay. But you know, what? The there are. Okay. Wait moral cultures. Evolve. And they don't always evolve in a positive way. Right. And so I think the late twentieth century. Incredibly positive, and I think we are. I think young people are losing touch with some of the hard won lessons of the past. So I'm not going to say, oh, we have to accept whatever. Morality is here. I still am ultimately a liberal in the sense that what I dream of is a society in which people are free to create lives that they wanna live and they're not forced to do things. They're not shamed. There's a minimum of conflict and we make room for each other. We're going to have a diverse society. We've really got to be tolerant and make room for each other. That's my dream. And I think in the last five or ten years we've gotten really far from that. I mean, the, you know, my first book, the happiness hypothesis was about ten ancient ideas. And you know, one is that we're too judgmental judge not lest Ye be judged, but I think the new version of that if there was a twenty-first-century Jesus he'd say judge a lot more judge all the time judge harshly don't get anywhere with the benefit the doubt. And don't let anyone judge you like that is not going to be recipe for a functioning society. So no, I do not accept this aspect of twenty-first-century morality. Well, you're you're obviously, much more entrenched in that. I am my hope, and this might be naive is that what these far left and far like really extreme. What it represents is the the the extreme poles of this shifting thing. So that the whole thing is going to move closer to a better place. And you're always gonna have really extreme. But you're going to have white supremacy. And you always gonna have extreme social Justice people your suggestion. It's a pendulum. Yes. I some things are pendulum summer not. Yeah. Okay. So there are problems of progress. There are some things that are kind of one way. So. So I'm often pessimistic about certain social trends, but I'm very influenced by Steve pinker know, you've had on the show and Matt Ridley and others who say look, the ARCO progress is amazingly Ravin is all good. And you know, Nick Kristof just had a call him that last year was the best year in human history. If you look at overall human welfare, so that's all true. But there are certain things that happened with progress that lead to certain countervailing trends that are not like pendular. And so for example. Okay. Here's one. Kids. It's it. It seems pretty clear that that human beings. Need a certain amount of hardship stress and challenge in order to develop basic human abilities kids who are neglected and abused are are damaged. I mean, if if it goes beyond certain limits, you have chronic stress, you can have brain damage, so we as we've as we've gotten rid of a lot of the worst things that's great. But as we're making life better and better and easier and easier for kids as we're protecting them for more and more where we're preventing them from basically expanding their abilities. And so it's possible that as we as we get wealthier and safer, and more humane and more caring, and as we have smaller and smaller families as we get richer all over the world. So that you have two parents spending all this time with one kid. It's possible that we are interfering with kids development to the point where we might have an epidemic of anxiety and depression. That could happen. A wait a second it has. So, you know, I think that there are certain problems of progress that are not pendular they change things. And those changes have some negative repercussions that we're going to have to actively fix. It's not going to swing back by itself. What concerns me when you're talking about all these ideas is that there's a restriction on how you are able to communicate to children or to students I should say to young people how their minds work, and how they're how these patterns can form. And how you know this. This pattern can be alternately damaging to them. But yet it feels rewarding in the act of doing it and that their own patterns that they're involved in right now might be incredibly problematic for them in the future. But if you bring it up you're criticizing who they of who they are as a human. You're disregarding your white privilege. You're doing all these different things. You can't really do you? You're doing all these things that could run into these problems with this sort of new paradigm and. What what how do you? How do you mitigate that? When you teaching kids like, how do you? How do you talk to them about the way the mind works when it's involving these critical things that are like incredibly sensitive to discuss today. Okay. So let's you might be talking about like issues like race and sex raised inside, okay gender. Okay. Let's go back to the beginning. Let's start with child development. Okay. Let's let's let's start with. What should we be doing with kids to make them tougher? So that you know, as they live in the world's safer and safer cars are safer. The death rate for kids is has been plummeting for all all causes other than suicide which has gone up. So as kids live in a safer and safer world. They also have the internet, which is going to expose them to virtual insults, forever and ever. So how are we going to raise kids to be maximally effective in this new twenty-first-century world to physically very safe, but virtually unsafe? Okay. How are we gonna do that? And I think the key idea that we need to put on the table here. And that I think everybody who works with kids needs to keep in mind every day is anti fragility. I know you've talked about that on the show before. But I should just give very brief explanation of it. Because it's such an important concept, so anti Jilani a lot of listeners will know is a word coined by Talib the guy who wrote the black swan because there are certain systems, and he was I. I think he was motivated by the collapse of the banking system. So he had predicted the collapse because he said the banking system is really convoluted, and it's never been tested. A system needs to be tested challenge shocked in order to then develop defensive against it. And our system is not contested. So if anything goes wrong, it's all going down. All right. Then you referenced him quite a few. Yes. That's right. He's really concept adventure fragile. That's right. It's a key idea in our book, and I find as I talk about this around the country. Once you explain this to people work with kids like everybody gets it right away. All right. So so tha says there's no word for this property. He says we we we know that some things are fragile. And so if you have a glass of wine glass on the table you knock it over it breaks. Okay. It doesn't get better in any way. And so, you know, you don't give kids a wine glass, you give them a plastic sippy Cup because plastic is resilient. But if a kid knocks over sippy Cup, it doesn't get better in any way until it wanted to know what's the word for things that do get better. When you knock them over. And the classic example is the immune system. So the immune system is an incomplete system. It's a miracle of evolution that we have this system for making antibodies. But it doesn't know exactly what to be reactive to that has to be set by childhood experience. And so if you keep your kids in a bubble and you use bacterial wipes, and you don't let them be exposed to bacteria. You're crippling the system the system has to get knocked over it has to get challenged threatened. It has to have has to learn how to expand its abilities. And so so this is why peanut allergies are going up. Those are really shocking part of your book. That's right. It's stunning. How fast this happy can please. Explain that people the whole peanut allergy thing. Yes. So peanut allergy's used to be really rare. And most of us, you know, older folk we brought peanut butter sandwiches to school. And when my son max started preschool in two thousand eight they went on and on about no nuts. Nothing that touched a nut. Nothing that looks like a nut. Nothing that has the word not. I mean, it was crazy how defensive they were about nuts. And as we write in the book, I thought back on that. And I said, wait a second. Like why you know, we're freaking out about nuts and the more we freak out about. It the higher the algae rate goes, and it turns out there was a study done in published in two thousand fifteen where the the researchers noticed that the allergy to nuts is only going up in countries that tell pregnant women to avoid nuts, and they thought well, maybe that's why. And so they did a controlled experiment. They got about six hundred women who give birth recently. And and whose kids were at higher risk of analogy because they had eggs him out or some other immune system sort of issue. So about three hundred of them are told standard advice your kids at risk the peanut allergy. So you should not eat peanuts. While you're lactating and keep peanuts your kid and the other half. We're told here is an Israeli snack food. It's a puffed corn with a peanut peanut powder. Dusting on the outside give it to your kids starting at in three or four months whenever the ready to eat. And so they monitor them they made sure that they weren't, you know, fail reactions or sewer or strong reactions and then. At the age of five they gave them all a very thorough immunological test and of the ones who followed the standard advice. Seventeen percent had a peanut allergy. They would have to watch out for peanuts for the rest of their lives such a high number because these were because these were already predisposed. Yeah. And but the half that we're predisposed but given peanut powder. Three percent. Just three percent had a peanut allergy at age five. In other words, we could almost wipe out peanut allergies by giving peanut powder to kids, and it just a few months ago and science the front page article was on doing that. And so again, good intentions and bad ideas. We're trying to protect our kids. So oh, keep them we from peanuts. But that's exactly the wrong advice because kids are anti-fraud Joel. And so we're doing the same thing them. The real issue is the people that have an actual severe allergy. Let your child. Yes. But that's what the science article was that exposure therapies are being tested, and they are the most effective even with people with extreme just you just have to. Have to start slow. So you so give them a very spicy. Because I was on a plane once and they informed us that they didn't want us to even eat peanuts on the plane because there was someone on the plane that was so allergic, right? That if you eat peanuts, and you chew it. And it's in the air it could adversely affect that person. And that could well be true. So I have no objection to that. But the reason we got to that point is because we started banning peanuts long ago. So this is one of these. I'm not sure if it's a problem with progress, but as we know it's not necessarily, but but it's an example of anti fragility. Right. Okay. So now, let's bring this to the playground. All right. So you know, when when you and I were kids, you know, boys and girls have different social interaction, but boys tease each other, right? Insult each other throw around insults. Right. Yeah. And that's part of developing to be a boy now if it turns into bullying like a bunch of kids or are after one kid day after day. Okay. That's terrible. We have to do something about that. I'm not saying bullying is okay. But as we've cracked down on bullying, and as we've gotten more and more sensitive about harming. General we're cracking down on any kind of teasing. Cruelty? Exclusion. So my kids go to New York City public schools, which are generally pretty good. But on the playground. You know, there's a monitor and the playground monitor. Look there's conflict he comes and checks it out if a kid is crying, he checks it out. You know seems like a good thing to do. But it's like treating kids like they're allergic to peanuts. Kids have to have thousands and thousands of conflicts. They have to be exposed to insult an exclusion teasing. And if you can imagine if you could keep your daughter in a protective tank when nobody would tease her insult or hurt her feelings for eighteen years. Would you do it? Absolutely not. It's not it's it's important that they do experience some Astles, they they just have to know. But the the on the flip side, there are certain people that are damaged for the rest of their lives by bullies. And some like I have a friend and his brother used to beat him up when when they live together, and it's still fucks with them to this day in these in his fifties. I think he has a certain level of depression. That's directly correlated. That's right. I mean, I can't say about your friend. But the research shows the research does show that bullying can leave permanent scars. So there are a couple things we have to keep our kids are anti fragile. Yes. But but two things one is they need challenges that are graded to their level of ability. So if they're overwhelmed, and if the suffering goes on day after day, so if kids are bay if their brain is bathed in cortisol so cortisol is a normal stress hormone, you have to experience stress you have to have cortisol, and then it drops goes up and down up into but kids who are raised either in an event where they're bullied or their abuse at home. They don't have a secure attachment relationship. Then they get brain damage, then you, you're hurting kids if it's chronic. So in no way, saying bullying is okay. You've got to keep you got to keep the line. Right. But but again, you have to look at each institution. So each school is not. Not thinking how can we carefully draw the line between bullying and valuable sorts of conflict. No, they're thinking. If we do this when we get sued, right? And if we're not really careful, bullying, we're gonna get sued. And so let's overreact. Let's go this way. Yeah. That's unfortunate. Really? But how do you decide how much bullying is? Except like you can. Venom like giving them a little bit. So they develop a tolerance. Yeah. So there's we we did some research on bullying. We didn't put it in the book because while we suspect that anti-bullying policies that that go too far and that ban conflict while we suspect that those are harmful. We couldn't prove that. So we didn't put this in the book, but the the traditional definitions of bullying are actually pretty reasonable. I hope I can remember exactly it's like there's a there's a power differential, and it's a chronic goes on for multiple multiple days and originally there was actually a threat of violence had to be Lisa threat of violence. I think that was the original definition, and then that was expanded gradually so that doesn't have to be necessarily threat of violence. But it it it has expanded so far that like my kids used the term if kids mean to another they'll call that bullying, and that's too far. So I think you have to keep your eye on the key. Far of a kid is mean. Yeah, call so. So like on the on the playground for my daughter. The girls would form these clubs, and so my daughter was in the kitty cat club that got what three girls call themselves, and they'd be in a corner. And they'd say, oh, you can't you can't join us. You're not in the kitty Kat club. That's mean, that's collusion. Right. We can't have that. Right. So the so you'd have to allow everyone in your group because you don't want to be a bully. That's what you're saying. He just knew that. Yeah. I don't know they call that bullying, but her teacher had a conversation with them. Now. She didn't I don't think she exactly ordered them. Never exclude. So it'd be okay. If you use it as a grounds for discussion, but increase, but some schools have even tried to discourage the existence of best friends because if you this friends, you're excluding others. That's hilarious. It is hilarious. But again, if you fail to understand that kids are anti fragile. Yeah. You think oh, my, you know, there's a rising citing depression and girls are cutting themselves at such high rates. We've got we've got to relieve them of stress like, no, that's that's not the right way to go about it. And the really is an epidemic of kids that grew up in that era of participation trophies where everyone one and there's a lot of parents that don't wanna see their children lose. Yeah. But that's a giant and the earning opportunity if you think the goal is to, cultivate, self esteem directly, you're crippling the kid giving your kids self esteem is not beneficial. In fact, if kids have high self esteem, but it's unstable then they're actually more likely to be violent to have more problems. You don't want to build self esteem. What you want to build is capacities. You want to give them a Bility's and skills that they do things that then indirectly give them self esteem and compassion, right? I mean, how do you how do you teach that? How do you teach it? Well, there lots and lots. I mean, it's one of the biggest things that is happening in schools has efforts to teach compassion. I don't know. I've not surveyed the research. I don't know if they work. I don't know. So look in general kids learn from experience, but adults wanna teach them directly. And so there's all these efforts to teach compassion. I have no idea if they work, but I would think that doing things together. And this is the point made by Peter gray an expert on play who co-founded let grow dot org. A wonderful organization. I hope we can talk about one way that kids. Learn compassion is by plane with each other when there's no adult who can step in where they have to look out each other to keep the game going. But when there are adults present who are supervising. Then if there's a conflict, the skills that kids need to learn are, how do you make your case to get the adult to come in on your side, and this is called moral dependence. So one of the best ways that kids. Learn compassion. Cooperation tolerance teamwork leadership is free play unsupervised free play. And that's what kids did from time immemorial certainly throughout the twentieth century up until the nineteen ninety s like when so zaas Q, how old were you? Where would you grow up first of all well all over the place? Honestly, I was born in New Jersey live there all seven San Francisco from seven to eleven keep here seven to that Mexico here. Okay. When you lived in San Francisco were you allowed outside were you allowed to go to a friend's house? Could you and your friends go places? Yeah. I was a latchkey kid. Okay. Yeah. My parents were gone all day. And so they would be arrested if they did them. Yeah. When I was eight years old. I did a magic show on fisherman's Warf by myself. Self fantastic sort of what we dodged a bunch of bullets and almost got molested some guy tried to Tom some some guy tried to abduct me. Wait. We literally tried to day was in a library. Some guy tried to get me to go out to his car with them to check out some books and some lady librarian saved me. She screamed out Joseph you get away from that, man. He just got out of jail. I ran off he was super creepy. But you know, I was eight I didn't understand what was going on studied some good books. Okay. Okay. Good. No, right. So so this is a nice example of how we made progress. Yeah. So so a lot what I'm saying? We're saying the book is we have to let kids out now. Yes, there there are dangers out there. And so kids have to learn you actually can talk to strangers. It's not coming to talk to strangers just never ever go off with them never under any circumstance. You know, put the really the problem with talking to strangers when you're eight you don't understand manipulation United stand. You think of adults as being someone who's going? You can. Count on. Okay. So so back, then we were negligent in that. We just we sent our kids out and didn't think about the dangerous. Now, the dangerous are actually extremely low least the danger of abduction the number of kids who are abducted in America. Each year is on the order of a hundred now many more abducted by the non custodial parent, but what you're talking to a stranger. Now. There's there are creeps out there there guys who masturbating I mean, there's all kinds of out there, but abductions extraordinarily rare. So yes, we have to deal that we have to teach kids. But what happened was there was a crimewave when you were growing up. There was actually a lot of crime in this country in the seventies and eighties. There was a lot of crime. And then the crime crimewave begins to end rapidly in the nineteen ninety s and just as it's ending. We changed our norms to say if a kid is outside, and there's no adult watching that kid is likely to be abducted. And therefore, the parents are responsible. The parents can be arrested or at least child protective services should pay them. Visit. So just as the crime was ending rates of all kinds of crazy violence for plummeting. We locked our kids up, and we said, you're not going to be able to have the kind of experience that you most need in order to become an independent functioning adult. Yeah. And so we don't know why depression, anxiety and suicide are skyrocketing for teenagers, especially teenage girls, but the combination of overprotection, and then social media seems to be the main part of the example. So I totally sympathize with the fact that yet there are there are risks out there. But the risk of protection is kills a lot more kids. There was a store that read about a wanna say the kids were eight and ten and they were walking home in New York City and the police officer stopped them and talk them, and then eventually interviewed their parents and said, why your children walking home? He's like because I taught him how to walk home showed him how to get home. This is a this is a valuable thing to give them the independence to leave school together. They look out for each other. And then they go home. Together. And you know, the cops were making like these people were negligent and criminal and they were saying no, I'm trying to prepare my child for the world. So it's a it's sort of a debate about the philosophy of raising human beings, and exposing them to a certain amount of independence and a certain amount of personal sovereignty. That's right. And so this is this is I think the most important lesson that Greg, and I hope will come from our book is that if you see the world is dangerous and threatening and you raise your kids accordingly. You're gonna raise emotionally stunted kids who are much higher risk of depression, anxiety and suicide so stopped doing that. We've got to stop doing that. Unfortunately, it's hard to stop doing that. Because if we let our kids outside we can be arrested now, that's happens. Very rarely. But it does happen or more concerning your kids can be harmed. That's extremely rare. But it can happen. And for the people that does happen to the idea that it's extremely rare as not comforting. Well, that's right. So we think about probabilities in very ineffective ways. Actually, we have those graphs. I sent in. Some graphs of depression anxiety rates. So if we think that kids are at risk of harm from letting them out, but we don't see that their risk of harm from keeping them in. Then we're gonna make the wrong decision. Right. So there's a silent secret sort of invisible harm of coddling them. Exactly. And then there's the small percentage of possible harm that you could get if you go out into the world. So so you you're raising your kids here what with your policy on letting them out, man slippery. Hell hell is your oldest? Well, have a grown one who's twenty two. And then I have a ten in eight. Okay. And it's hard man because I don't even like when they go over on sleepovers over friends. How scary whose problem is that it's everybody's problem. You know, it's a well. I mean, the parents were pretty selective about the parents. But there's a lot of parents don't pay attention to their kids at all. Meaning they just two now and they get on the phone. The kids are. Sticking forks into the fucking outlets. And you know, there's there's a lot of weirdness when it comes to the styles of that people have been raising their children. What is this this graph? You just pulled. So, you know, so depressive episodes. Yeah. So I guess I'll just narrative for people listening that one video you know, you said before it's like a virus came out of nowhere. And that is sort of what it's been like. So what's happening in America? And I know it's happening the same in Britain. And Canada haven't looked at other other places yet haven't dug into those stats. What's happening is that rates of depression and anxiety were fairly stable from the ninety s through the early two thousands, and what you see here, and this is a graph. That's in our book is that the the percentage of kids age twelve to seventeen in America who met the criteria for having a major depressive episode that is they're giving a symptom checklist but nine symptoms, and if you say yes to five of them, you know, feeling hopeless and couldn't get out of bed. If you say is to five or more. You're you're considered to have had a major. Passive episode. And what you see is that the rate for boys is around five percent. And then around twenty eleven it starts going up. And now it's around seven percent, which is actually a somewhat substantial increase, but as you can see in the graph the line for girls starts off higher because girls have more mood disorders more exciting. Depression, boys, have more anti-social behaviour alcoholism crime and violence, but girl's turn it's called an internalizing disorder girls. Basically make themselves miserable boys make other people miserable. The growth rate is higher, but it was stable from two thousand or these two thousand five through two thousand ten and then right around twenty seven twenty twelve it's going up, and it goes way up to the point where it goes up from about twelve percent. Now about twenty percent of American teenage girls have had a major depressive episode in the last year one in five so this is huge. Okay. Next slide. Now, let's look just a college students. So this is more selective. He's a kids who've made it into college. And what we see is that in two thousand ten and twenty and twenty twelve when college students were all millennials the rates were pretty low. This is do you have a psychological disorder, and they didn't specify or they said such as depression. And so we see about two to three percent of the boys. College men and about five percent of five to six percent of college women say yes to that question. That's when it was millennials, but beginning to twenty thirteen jen's e begins arriving that's kids born in nineteen ninety-five jen's e begins arriving. And so by twenty sixteen colleges are almost all jen's e and the rates shoot up way up yet. We're looking at these charts right now and folks were just listening the it's like it's a like a jump ramp for a BMX racer. I mean really is crazy for women out of nowhere. And it hits a two thousand twelve it goes on a very sharp upward. Angle, right. Goes from six less than six percent to almost fifteen percent in the space of four years. That's crazy. It's crazy. You can't say that. That's my concentration and say crazy. We're going to say fucking nuts. No. Because some people might have had allergy. Oh boy. Ludicrous. It's preposterous. I just really frightening. Really frightening, and so this has huge ramifications. Let me just make clear I think we have another another slide there you bring up the next one. Okay. So some people say oh, come on. You guys are catastrophes. Ing the increases in real. It's just that you know, this generation they're really comfortable talking about mental illness. And so the fact that they say they're depressed just means they're comfortable. It doesn't mean that there's an epidemic of this argument that it's just an argument of recognition rather than of perfectly reason. That's right diagnostic criteria change perfectly reasonable argument. Is it true? Well, let's look at behavior. So with this craft shows is the number of boys out of one hundred thousand who admitted to a hospital every year because they cut they deliberately harmed themselves to be hospitalized. And what you see here is that the there's no change over time. So boys these graphs from two thousand one to twenty fifteen the lines are flat for all the different age groups and just notice at the highest rates are around two hundred eighty out of one hundred thousand per year. That's the situation for boys next graph. Bang the situation for girls is really really different. So the averages are higher. So self harm has always been more of a girl thing than a boy thing vitamin boys except for suicide. Exactly. We'll get to that. That's right. That's next. So we look at self-harm. What you see here is that the rates were fairly stable up until two thousand nine and then bang just in the last same thing the rates for girls, go shooting up. So the rate for fifteen to nineteen year old girls is up sixty two percent since two thousand nine now. Notice the rate for the millennials that is the rate for the oldest girls aged twenty to twenty four that's only up seventeen percent. So whatever happened is not affecting the millennials. It's affecting jen's e ways there when it hit the advance key. Because I think there's one number missing there. Okay. I'll just go forward. Okay. The number of there. It is there. It is the rate for the youngest girls check that out. Now the youngest these are ten to fourteen year old girls. These are preteens. Okay. They didn't use to cut themselves. They used to have very low rates, but bang beginning in two thousand ten it shoots up. It's up one hundred eighty nine percent. It has nearly tripled in the last five or six years. The. The gong. We don't know for sure. But the reason why so because of the huge sex difference leading candidate and the timing look at that timing is social media. So if you look at what happened in this country and all around the world Facebook opens up to the world in two thousand six in that you don't have to be a college student, but very few teenagers have a Facebook account two thousand six two thousand seventy iphone comes out, but it's very expensive and very few teenagers have one by twenty ten twenty eleven around half of American teenagers have an iphone or Samsung, they have a smartphone, and they have access to social media in middle school because even though for Facebook and Instagram, I think the minimum age is in was thirteen. You know? I mean, my my son is twelve a lot of his friends have Instagram you just lie. So middle school kids are now getting on social media by twenty ten twenty eleven you've got a lot of them. And that's what I think is the main cause of this because social media does not really affect boys very much, but man. Does it affect girls? Why is up? So if you look at so a couple of reasons, I look at the nature of aggression within the sexes, boys. Bullying is physical. Okay. Boys are physically dominating. And the risk is that they're gonna get punched. Okay. So you give everybody an iphone? What do they do with it games and porn? They don't use it to hurt each other, boys. You're soy's. That's right. It doesn't affect their bullying, but girls aggression, the girls are actually as aggressive as boys as research for from the eighties nineties on this. If you include relational aggression, girls don't bullied by threatening to punch each other in the face girls believed other by damaging the other girls social relationships spreading rumors spreading lies spreading doctored photographs saying bad things excluding them. It's relational aggression. And so it's always been really hard to be a middle school student. It's always been harder to be middle school girl than a middle school. Boy. Okay. So beginning around twenty ten twenty eleven we throw in this brand new thing into the mix. Okay, girls. Here's this beautiful thing in your hand. And here's all these programs where you can damage anyone social relationships anytime of the day or night with deniability from an anonymous account, go at at girls, and so the nature of girls. Bullying is hyper charged by social media and smartphones that's one mechanism the other two mechanisms are the social comparison because it's always been hard to be a teen girl emerging with beauty standards and impossible beauty standards. And when we were kids, you had impossible beauty standards that these models were all doctored up and then Photoshop okay? So you've got these impossible beauty standards out there, but beginning the social media, and especially recent years, your own friends can put on filter Instagram to make their lips big or the skin cleaner. There is bigger. So your own friends are more beautiful than they are in real life. You feel uglier? So that's the social comparison of beauty. And then probably the biggest single one. Is the fear of missing out the fear of being left out? So all kids are subject to this. Everyone's concerned about whether they're included whether they're they're excluded. But girls are much more sensitive. And so suddenly when everybody is tracking each others who was invited who's there, and especially any program which girl puts something out and then waits to see what other people say about it. That is what's really damaging. I think we again, let me stress we don't know for sure there are some experiments on this. But it's mostly correlation stuff. We're talking about here correlation data, but the overall experience of being a girl who was born in nineteen ninety five or later and got this stuff in middle school is different from being a girl. Born in nineteen ninety. Let's say we didn't get the stuff till college. Are you concerned that this is a trend that as technology becomes more more invasive it and with these new technologies as they emerge that this is going to be worse. Yes, or yes. But it doesn't have to be does. So I think in the last two years, we're really. Waking up to this the founders of this technology. It's really interesting. So first of all, it's important to note as many people have read the a lot of the creators of this technology, do not let their kids have it. So they know that these things were made to be addictive they're made to grab eyeballs and not let go so that's one thing. We'll keep that in mind that the makers of this are wary of it second they've gotten more and more addictive as they've gotten better and better as they've evolved. So they're getting more and more and fortnight is an example of of you know, a extremely addictive game. And it does. But so when you if you've ever been to a. A casino. And you've seen kid you've seen people sitting at those machines like zombies, just, you know, hour after hour pulling that crank because there were psychologists working out the variable reinforcement schedule for the gambling companies psychologists, they're helping companies manipulate users, and that's happening to our kids to their their manipulated to stay on the device. So once we're beginning to realize this the nature of these technologies. The fact that what is good for adults may be terrible for twelve year old ten year olds. And once we realize that these things are so attractive that they crowd out all that other healthy activities like playing outside playing with groups of friends once we realized that I think I hope we'll get some reasonable norms, and what I'd like to propose. This is fantastic. Be able to talk to so many people I'd like to propose his if you have kids, especially if you have kids under about sixteen please do what you can to talk with other parents, and especially. With the principal at any schools. You know and say we need some sensible norms because we can't solve this problem by ourselves. So I want to keep my kids off social media. But my son says well, most of my friends are have Instagram accounts. Now, if it was every friend he was the only one who was excluded. It will be really hard for me to stick to my guns. I would do it would be really hard. Whereas if it was only a few of his friends and most of them weren't it be so easy. And I hear from parents over and over I don't want my kid on social media. But I don't want her to be left out. And so if the principal would just say, parents, please this is getting this is getting out of hand. This is harming kids look at the data. Look at the suicide rates look at the look at the self harm rates. We've got to do something. What do you do a couple of things? I think it's pretty couple of pre simple norps one all devices out of the bedroom by a set time at least half an hour before bed. There is no reason why kids should have an iphone or a computer screen in their bedroom. Because so many kids are attracted to it. They'll. Check their status overnight and it interrupts their sleep. We can't be having teenagers who have interrupted sleep that. There's no benefit from that gave my daughter a fit bit my ten year old to, you know, monitor all sorts of different than she was interested in. So we got one for Christmas and she slept five and a half hours the first night she had it on. 'cause we check. We're like what are you doing? She's checking the fifth day. What's what's going on? Like, this is not good. Like you can't wear this. Now, she's like trying to make all these arguments to keep it on like, listen. She was not distracting me. I go. It's not distracting you. Then you shouldn't care if you don't have it on because then it's not gonna mean anything. And then there's like there's like shit like she got checkmated. That's right now because these things are so attractive addictive. I had one of those goddamn watches those apple watches had on for one day while I was doing the podcast vibrating. My all my God. I'm getting text messages on my wrist, my wrist, so and your brain is all developed your well. Okay. Okay. But imagine if you're. A ten or eleven year. Oh, I've seen it. Yeah. You put something out there. And you want to know D did Bill like it yet? Why did why did Mary like bills, but not so? So that's rule. Number one. You gotta get devices out of the bedroom. Give him an old fashioned alarm clock. Let them wake up one to no social media until high school. There is no reason why kids in middle school elementary school should have Instagram Facebook, Snapchat, any of those agree. They can text each other. When we were kids he'd call each other on the phone is fine. They tend to each other. But there should be no social media till high school because it's it's a social dilemma that. We can't solve alone. We only saw if there's an agreement among parents and guidance from the principal, please parents don't give your kidneys Graham account. And my only concern is that they're not gonna learn how to mitigate it or how to navigate it rather. If we say nothing until high school, and then when they get into high school, then they they're confronted with it. I would like them to have some skills, or at least some understanding of what's going on that. So so I'm not saying don't let him have. Access to these machines. I'm not saying don't let them know. I know exactly what you're saying. You're saying they won't allow social media. And how about this the bullying that takes place in middle school is primitive and destructive and the bullying that takes place in late high school is a lot less and is not really way. What do you think that is well mills like middle school kids are just coming into this? There's some research. So gene twangy has a book called, Jen. And she has some data into that suggests that when you get social media in college. It doesn't seem to harm you. But when you got it and your preteen years it does. And so she thinks that it's important the nature of the bullying has such. So, you know, sure, we want them to know how to deal with this. But you know, they can learn it pretty quickly when they're fifteen. It's not like they need a running start from eleven to fifteen right. So I just see. No good whatsoever. Coming from social media in middle school. And I see a lot of harm. If you want your I go around the country talk about this. The almost the rule now is when some in some says. Oh, my daughter's in high school, and she's had it. And I say how she doing does. She have problems. The answer's almost always. Yes. And if it's not her than her friends are all crippled by or suffering from anxiety. So I think we have to you know, you have to wake cost and benefits a few years ago. We didn't know for sure about the costs. Now, we do. Yeah. No. You're making total sense. I'm purely playing devil's advocate on the same page with you. I don't get my kids don't have phones and my ten year old. It's shocking. How many girls in her class have phones and Facebook, accounts and Instagram accounts? And they all say it right now her friends are at higher risk than she is of having an exciting disorder of being hospitalized because they're going to cut themselves and ultimately suicide. Yeah, it's so common, and it's most of the kids in school now. And when they get older than ten the the number increases like parents hold out for as long as they can. But as the hit older and the kids want phones man, everybody wants phone, so they put in a plug, so I gave my son. So I'm saying to contradictory things. One is I'm saying we gotta let our kids out. Got to start letting about least by age eight at least to go with their friends to play ground stores. We've got to start doing this. And at the same time, I'm saying that the technology has some negative effects. Okay. If you're going to send your kid out. I totally get what you were saying about your the panicked. Like the first time that we let our son out in the park, and then he didn't come home. Right. When he said like, and it was real panic in part. So to one is we have to get used to that. Because he always does come home. But Secondly, I didn't realize this when I gave him an iphone my old iphone? There's a great little product of. I don't know if in they don't make it. It's L G makes it, but it's a Gizmo or Gizmo gadget. And so it's a simple. It's a watch. It's it's it's a big clunky thing. But my daughter loves wearing it 'cause it's kind of like a JAMES BOND, dick, Tracy thing. It's a watch you press a button, you turn it on you can call three phone numbers, that's three dollars. So she can call. And so now I can send her out to get bagels on Sunday morning. She walks about six blocks in New York City. It's incredibly safe. How old is she? She is nine so. Yeah. So. So and she is a much more independent confident girl because of it, and she is proud of this fact that she is a free range kid. She can walk around our neighborhood. I mean, we live in Greenwich Village, it's incredibly safe. So she can go get bagels. And you know, she has no sense of direction. So a couple times when she's been out doing there and she gets lost. She just presses a button. Daddy. I don't know where I am. And she's calm, and we talked through and I can track her. That's the the reassuring thing. I can see on the screen roughly where she is. So I can say, you know, what you see and come back this way. And she always knows if she gets in trouble just walk home and start again. Yeah. Who? What do you think? Joe why what's what's that facial expression? Nothing is just children wandering around on their own. Yeah. Let's always happened. And as they have to do at some point. I know, but listen look at how you're even reacted to this. What what you're you're. You're beaming up your adding a motion to your voice and your smiling as as it's everything's gonna be fine. If you're doing this in sort of your not just reassuring you're selling it. You're right. I am selling it. Because we as a society bought into a set of beliefs that are based on falsehoods the risk to our kids is miniscule. Someone calculated at present rates of abduction by strangers. If you put your kid in a car, and you go into a store, and you leave the windows open your kid sitting there in the parking lot. You'd have to stay in that store for seven hundred thousand years before your kid is likely to be abducted. Well, does not depend on what neighborhood you live in isolation. So, you know, but still the point is that there's hardly any actual abduction. And so actually this brings up a really important point. I'd like to say. You one of the sticking points. Here is that we're free to let kids out because bad things can happen to us as well. As to the kids store, and so hope that would be a least your concerns number one concern would be your children's safety. But you getting in trouble that hope would be the least of your concerns, not the least of them because I am selling something. I am selling the idea that that the the gigantic rise in mental illness of teenagers is caused in part because we've overprotected them we have denied them the experiences of independence, they need to develop their basic social sense. And so I am selling idea that we've we've totally botched this, and we need to undo it. And a big piece of that is we need to be removed from the fear of legal prosecution and so- Utah the state of Utah past a year and a half ago, your, yeah, they passed the first free range kids Bill, which says it puts into state law. It says I forget what the exact terms, but the gist of it is apparent cannot be considered to be. Legit. Just by having the kids be unsupervised. So if you send your kids out to the park, you know, you have to obviously if there's a pattern of neglect. That's a totally different story. But the mere fact that as you just said the story about what I'm teaching my kids to go outside. And I know that they're outside. I told them to go outside you can't be arrested for that. And until we have legal protections. It's very hard for anyone to do it. Because they you know. The risk is you could be drawn into months and months of supervision. Your kids can actually be taken away from you. If you give them independence in some parts of the country. It's interesting that you would be so progressive about that. Yeah. I don't know the history behind it such a safe place. It's one of the reasons why that could be that a big part of this is we don't trust each other anymore. Right. You know, if you don't trust your neighbors. Then you're you're not going to let them out. You're not gonna let your kids. One of the things you talk about in in your book about happiness. It's really interesting is cognitive therapy Prozac, and meditation those those three factors being enormous aids in a Quiring certain amount of happiness. You know, I've I've found it very refreshing that you you also added in Prozac you added in SS arise because there's a lot of people that seem to take this approach with depressing. Anti-depressants in particular that they're over prescribed which I think they probably are. And they do more harm than good, which is debatable. But the fact that they do good I have had to close friends that were in really bad places, and they got on a necessary. I and clean them up. And they eventually wean themselves off hitter. And now very productive and very happy. But they were in a place in their life where they like, my friend Ari put it best. He's like my brain was broken. And he goes I needed to fix it and fixed it and then once it was fixed. I realized it was fixed, and then I weaned myself off. That's right. Yeah. So in chapter two of the happiness, I Papa so the book is based on ten nation ideas. And one of the ancient ideas is the world is. But we deal the world is. We'll just what we deem it it our perceptions. We make the world the world is not an objective thing. We we don't react to the world as objective. Fact, we're we act to it through filters and one of the major personality traits is sort of positively negatively or overall happiness. Yeah. Some people with or they see threats other people look at the world, they see opportunities. And if you take a bunch of kids for five six year kids, and you put some weird toy in front of that makes noise some the kids go towards it and say, oh, what's that some are going to move away? Like, oh, this could be threatening. And from that behavior, you can predict not with a lot of accuracy, but you can do better than chance who's going to go to high school prom who is going to be a successful in in any sort of social endeavors because some people's brains are set to fear and avoidance when your brain is set to see more threats. You have a bias towards interpreting things negatively, and if the world is incredibly dangerous, well that might be adaptive. But if the world's incredibly physically. Safe as ours is you're losing a lot of opportunities. You're going to be less successful. And so the point of that chapter was there are ways you can change your filter. Even though this is highly heritable identical twins reared apart tend to be pretty similar on these traits, but you can change your filters. And so that chapter two of the happiness ipod. This shows the three main ways of changing your filter. So it was a meditation cognitive therapy and SR is an all three work. There's a lot of evidence for all three meditation has only good effects. It's wonderful. But it's hard that is I've assigned it to my classes and of most undergraduates if they have to do it for few weeks, most of them stop a few continue and get benefits. Cognitive therapy is easier it when I was signed students to do it. Most have success. I have a real hard time with that phrase. It's hard that mission's hard. Really do. I don't think it's hard. You find it easy to sit for twenty minutes, not easy, but it's not hard coal mining hard. Okay. You know what? I mean. We're doing something. You hate is hard. Yeah. This is just complicated. I don't think it's hard year. Right. Let me use a different word. Meditation is such that the noncompliance rate ends up being quite high. Well, there's a massive people have problem with a few things. One discipline to. Avoiding discomfort. This is P is one of the reasons why people don't like exercise, and it's also really just starting exercise because the actual exercises selfish on kind of pleasure. Once you develop a habit. It's a lot. Yes. This is. I think what you have with meditation. It's procrastination this your brain tries to find ways to avoid whatever difficult, especially in some strange way. If it's been shown to be beneficial things that have been shown to be beneficial your brain wants to avoid do not know why that is. But things you get I have a theory that especially when you're growing up that you associate work with schoolwork jobs did so anytime you have these thoughts in your head. You're like, oh, it's that thing. It's one of those things, and I don't wanna do wanna go play video games won't play four night. Why do I have to do the work? But the doing the work, really. It's just a matter of how you inter-. Face with it. How you how you view it? And we're it's many many years of conditioning that this is Mondaym dreary boring. Horsh it when you could be out playing. Yeah. You'd be out. They went fun stuff now. That's right. There's a there's a great little scene in the Simpsons were barred is on a video game. And he's shooting down state capitals. And he's shooting like something appears like, oh, there's Helena, you know, there's a Springfield. And then there's certain point says, wait, I'm learning and he throws down to. Yes. Exactly. It's really what is what it is. I mean, it's it's kind of amazing that we have done such a shitty job teaching kids that we make school out to be this dreary thing that they're they have a deep voice. Well, that's right. And that's and this is Peter grace point Peter gray, this wonderful developmental psychologist at Boston College who thinks that schools are are not designed with kids learning in mind kids. Learn best from interacting with the world from experience we get experienced from feedback. And so we make learning painful. So an example would be, you know, like, how do you learn to climb a tree, you know, when we were kids he'd climate tree? And do you know that feeling when you go out on a branch, and a certain point, you just get the sense that it's about to crack you pull back. Okay. Now, imagine that you had hundred kids who learn how to climb trees by climbing trees, you take another hundred kids you give them tree climbing class you never let them climate tree. Okay. But you, you know, you you you bring in the world's best experts on tree climbing. And they teach these kids how to climb trees. And then you put them all out, and you give them trees to climb I own general. I would put my money on the kids who actually learned from experience. Oh for sure. And so to the general principle again is that we'll actually here I'll bring up with ideas and happiness, I I find it really helpful to think of the mind as being divided into parts like a writer on an elephant and the rider is our conscious reasoning the little guy up on top who who has language, and it's what we're aware of. But the elephants the other ninety nine percent of our minds, and that's almost all automatic processes. It's intuitions it's emotions habits phobias all sorts of things. And so child development can't be just training the rider free teen years wisdom knowledge skill competence. Those those have to involve training the elephant and when the two work together, then you get the best results. And I think we just what we've done in America. Especially is we've said. We want our kids to be really good at math. So we're going to teach the math earlier, let's give the math in kindergarten. But there's no evidence at that helps it there's no evidence that teaching epidemic skills earlier will make them advance to a higher level at the end what they most need when they're young is to play. And we've taken that away from them. We've given them too many after school lessons you're in too much supervision of their play. Yeah. That's the saddest thing in the world is when my kids come home, and the really frustrated because they have homework and now ten year olds have hours of homework because you're at school all day. That's and I don't know how to address that. And bring it to the and say, hey, you guys are fucking up even though I've never taught anyone ever in class. I'm telling you, you're doing it wrong. Yeah. So, you know, it's a case where you certainly need the research, and the research we cover some of the research in chapters eight and nine of the coddling, the American mind, and as far as we can tell the research seems to show that they're essentially no benefit. Hits to doing homework in kindergarten and first grade, maybe a little bit of like, you know, they learned to organize their time, but barely any by fifth or sixth grade. There's more evidence that homework has been official, but in between there really isn't clear. What's really clear is that play free play is beneficial? So so it's hard for you as as just one parent to say, hey, don't do this. But I think as part of a larger program to say our kids are being messed up look at these graphs, look at the Ritz visiting depression, and you know, when I talk I talk about the book all around you talknet people come up to me. And they'll say like, I'm a teacher I've been teaching Qatar for twenty years and suddenly like just in the last few years, I give them negative feedback, and they crack so everyone's beginning to notice that our kids are frail, and nobody wants this. And so I think we're gonna find people more open to changing what we're doing. Boy, I hope so. It's also. It's got to be so incredibly difficult to cater a lesson where you have thirty or forty kids in the classroom with varying abilities in varying interests, and you're sort of catering less. We trying to excite them about strana me or whatever it is. You're teaching and get it through into their heads and make it seem fun. Yeah. Yeah. And still teach them. Yeah. Yeah. And then still set them up with to have a certain amount of discipline. If you're going to enter into the workforce, you're going to have to do things you don't necessarily want to do while, you're doing them. That's right. And if we're in now, you add to that the decline of authority of teachers and principals, and you add to that the sense of empowerment that parents have to find tune our control and be involved. The there are stories now that parents who come to the lunchroom because they want to see their kid at lunch where we're principals and teachers where once you know, if the principal or the teacher gives a bad grade. The parents would assume that it was deserved. I think there's more of a tendency in recent in the decade or two of parents who are very competitive or concerned about getting the kid into college to complain. So if you have I don't know how how general these these trends are I don't want to overestimate this, but if you have a general decline of authority of teachers and principals now, they have less leeway to give negative experiences. So if someone does if someone fails to turn a paper because they were responsible, and you say sorry f. No. That would could be a good learning experience. Right. Like could be but it'd be devastating for their GPA. And that's right. So probably a good thing though. It's from the understand consequences. Right. Exactly. What about teaching children? How to think and why is that not a massive part of the curriculum? Because I think that's something that I really had to learn on my own, and I think it's one of the most valuable things that ever learned. But as I got older, I always thought why didn't I learn this in school a couple of reasons so when in the nineteen eighties. There was a huge emphasis on teaching critical thinking, and we don't hear about that anymore because nobody thought a way to do it. So it's not that easy. One of the things I cover in the happiness. I in the righteous mind is we're all designed for confirmation bias. We're all really good at confirming. What we already believe? And so it's very hard to train anyone to discontinue their own hypotheses. What we really need to think. Better is the right system the right community. We actually need. Critics. So actually here I brought you a copy of of a little book that I co produced right? So this is John Stuart mill wrote one of the most important books in the western tradition on liberty chapter two of on. Liberty is the best set of arguments ever made for free speech for why it is that we need to let people talk and challenging criticize even if we think they're wrong, and we get smarter from having to rebut them was if we shut them down if we have blasphemy laws, we get dumber. Yes. We never actually face tests of what we believe. So this set of arguments in chapter two of on liberty is timeless. I mean, we need a million -ticipant every argument that we hear now about why we need to shut that person down. Not let that person talk. And so I thought, wow, we need to get this book backout 'cause costumes don't read this anymore, and it's a little bit difficult the text. So I I happen to be friends with with Richard Reeves who's a mill scholar is Brookings Institution. And and he called he said. Jonathan I love what you're doing. It had Rex academy if I can help let me know. So I said well, actually, Richard. Would you co it it this edition of of mill second chapter? And he said, yes, I'd love to. So he made this elections. We work together like to reduce it. It's only seven thousand words, so it's easy to read. And then this wonderful artists Dave Cicero stopped by my office. I love what you're doing academy. If I can be of help, let me know. And I said, well, actually, could you read this text fine mills metaphor because millions lot of wonderful metaphors and illustrate them. And so if tested over which is that camera. Okay. So what Dave did was he took he took mills metaphors? And so, you know, we've got these like amazing graphic cartoon type images of the dynamics of what happens when we shame people because mill was not concerned about government censorship. That wasn't a big deal in London. Eighteen fifty nine. It was social censorship. Just as it is today. So, you know, so Cicero Ellie made these beautiful illustrations of mills point. And so we think that this book if this book was assigned a in every highschool for seniors or every incoming freshman class. We think that people would think a lot better. So you ought to know how to do critical thinking read this book, and then seek out your opponents. Seek out your critics seek out the people who can do for you. What you can't do for yourself, which has challenged your ideas, are you concerned with this the trend that we're seeing now with social media of I mean, I get removing blatant racism, and sexism and certain really awful types of behavior from certain social media. Sides. But at a certain point in time, it becomes an an ideological battle and people that lean one way or another want that other side they silenced. I'm seeing this way more from the left, which is very disturbing to me because growing up my family was very liberal. You know, and I said my formative years in San Francisco was always around hippies. And I always felt like the people that were on the left with the open minded educated ones who were concerned with the future of discourse. And and humans developing the ability to really flesh out ideas and work their way through them, which only happens through three for through real free speech giving people the ability to express themselves, and then deciding whether or not you agree with that. And why you disagree or agree? And then speaking your mind, and then everybody works it out together. This this is not necessarily the trend that we're seeing today. That's right. That's right. So I let me just say you can get this book for free at least you can download. The PDF. If you go to heterodox, academy dot org slash mill. Or you can get a three dollar. Kindle, you go to Amazon look this up. It's three dollars for the kindle or you can buy the book there to boss. That's so cool that you're doing in loud people that download it for free to we want to get the word out with these the ideas that are needed so onto your question. So in part, there's an empirical question here, which I don't know the answer to in Europe, they ban in most they ban hate speech. So or holocaust there's certain things that are illegal to crime. And in America, we don't now it's an empirical question, meaning it's open to excellent destination does banning it push it underground and let the people feel that they are victims of being silencing comeback stronger. Or is some of the best disinfectant? I don't know the answer to that. I think in general, I think the American system has has worked better. But I I don't know they're scholars who could who could address that as for. What is happening to the left is the left more intolerant. I agree with you that you would think the left would be more open and in my research on left, right? The left is generally higher and openness to experience the idea of dissent. Dissent is patriotic. These are leftist ideas, not not right as idea. So the left should be more open problem is any group that any group that loses variety that loses diversity any group in which everybody thinks the same is at risk of of turning it into an ideology of turned into a religion. And then you lose the ability to think straight, and now if somebody so you know, when I was in college at Yale everybody sort of leaned left, but there was conservatives. There was some conservative professors like I've been exposed to some conservative ideas. But now if you're in a college that has essentially no conservatives that will put out ideas and encounter one. Now, it's much more painful. It's much more shocking. Again, it's like it's like you have a peanut allergy to ideas that are not your groups. And we want so we it's terrible. If we're putting young people in systems that are basically giving them ideological peanut allergies. That's a great way to look at it. I definitely agree with that in terms of young people, but I'm concerned with grown adults as well. I think that the boy a my personal opinion the way to con the way to deal with bad speech is better speech or the way the way deal with shitty ideas is to make those ideas look shitty through debate. It's not to silence the person that's talking. This is one of the more confusing things about people that are pulling alarms on speakers and shouting them down whether talking you have an opportunity with that person's in front of you to listen to their idea, and there should be an opportunity to to debate that idea to to form your own opinion and have a really good argument against it. And to present. That argument and to have people see both sides. And this is what learnings was to be all about especially recognizing the flaws in ideas, recognizing bias recognizing the lack of critical thinking or recognizing critical thinking and applauding it. I will agree with you. Depending on the context what I mean is if you have a group of people interacting with certain norms or laws that that ban intimidation and violence that make people have some accountability for how they the style that they use to argue short if you if you if you lie if yes threaten something your reputation, something bad will come back to you. Yes, intimidation and violence are probably the most important that's as are. And so within a university. I totally agree with you. Now, if you look at the country as a whole or the internet as a whole, and you have a culture war going on or you have a sense of us versus them, and you have all kinds of bad actors like the Russians discovered before then that were there was the the the fake news people who discovered they make fake articles and on the left and the right and just turned out that actually the right would click on the most they went that way there. If there are people. Who are gaming the system, then your idea, which is bills idea? There are I think there are conditions in which it wouldn't work. I'm not sure about that. But I think there are sit conditions in which that logic would not work. And so one thing that I'm very concerned about I don't see why it is that we can ever let people start an account where there's no verification of who they are not saying you can't have anonymous accounts. Like, I understand the reasons why you'd want to be able to post without your real name. That's fine. But if you make a death threat, or what you know, what happens a lot is like, you know, there's research showing if you post something as a woman versus a man as a woman, you're gonna get a lot more rape threats and things like that. If you if you post as a black person or white person to get a lot more racist stuff. So at least the platform should always know that you're a person, and that you can you're gonna be shut down. If you if you talk this way, because I think that there are so many people saying such nasty stuff that it feeds back and changes people's willingness to speak up, right? My concern is not necessarily free speech per se. It's free speech as a means to an end and that end. Is that we as individuals are kind of stupid, and we only get smart if you put us together in the right way where we can challenge each other. That's what university should do. And when we have a call out culture, we're walking on eggshells. We can no longer do that. And in the marketplace of ideas, I think it's really interesting to see those two things play out the one the benefit of being animus that you could talk about things without fear of retribution. You could talk about things without fear of losing your job and controversial ideas, especially in this day and age that you know, might not really be that controversial to you, or at least arguable to you. But they you could get shamed. For and get people could take your words out of context, and you could get in real trouble. So there's a benefit of anonymity. But on the other hand when you looking at slurs attacks threats, stocking all that stuff. It would be nice. If we knew who is behind all this. Absolutely. Yeah. So that's a case where I don't think it's a pendulum. I do think that there will be some technologic. Solutions and maybe some social norms. So that people who critique in certain way, where it slurs and it's guilt by association. Those people in some sense, lose points lose credibility, be downgraded. My big word for twenty nineteen is nuance that most things are complicated. Lease the things we're talking about are calm and anybody who can say, you know, I think you're right about expert wrong about why like that should be one hundred bonus points that is one of the essential skills of of sincerely engaging with people and anybody who uses guilt by association loses one hundred points. So like one thing I'm finding because I'm a centrist. I only vote for Democrats. I've never voted Republican. But I consider myself philosophically to be a centrist. And now people will say that I'm alt-right adjacent, you know, favorite one the adjacency. That's a that's a wonderful. I get that one because I've had people on the podcast that are right wingers. Yeah. So what you should say to them. They say on on social media is anybody who makes. An adjacency argument is McCarthy adjacent that is. If you're making a guilt by association argument, if you say adjacency argument, that's guilt by association. Anybody does guilt by association is like McCarthy. Therefore, they're McCarthy adjacent Loche said that clear, but it is a good argument. That's a good definition of what you're saying. It's it's screwy thing that people are doing by this. All right, adjacent thing. Well, you know in someone broke hold chart of like people interacting with people and connecting these people because they've had communication with these people. And so that somehow another these things are all related like boy that is a that's a squirrelly argument. No. But but but actually, this is the way the human mind works, right? We have to see is that we evolved to do this kind of religion with witchcraft beliefs and voodoo there's all these all these patterns that recur all around the world and the miracle is that there have been societies such as ours that develop norms of science norms of discourse norms of civility norms of tala. Ration- and free speech where the exceptions, and it's precious and it's easily lost. I think I fear. Do you think that it's also this newfound ability to communicate that we're experiencing because the internet leads us to a lot of this sort of sloppy or arguing and categories I can categorizing of of humans and ideas that it's we're just not used to these tools yet. Yes. But it's not. So so I approached this as a social psychologist so most of the commentary about this comes from cognitive psychologists or people who talk about the information bubbles the filter bubbles as though, you know, I have my ideas in my head. And if I'm exposed only to ideas from here, then I'm going to have an incorrect downs of ideas. So look at the information flow. Obviously, these these tools have vastly changed. The information flow mostly for the better, you can Google anything at anytime. So mostly for the better. But we had this problem of unbalanced like, you know, you only sugar or something. So you haven't. Bounced diet. Okay, fine. Those are problems. I'm a social psychologist. I think the social dynamics problems are vastly bigger vastly more dangerous. And they are that if whatever I say, or whether I will agree with you or whether I'll even press the like button, I'm thinking what's going to happen to me who's going to nail me for it. And there are people who go through my Twitter feed, and they look at what I liked months or years ago. And they'll say, well, he like this or he followed this. Yeah. I follow people on the alright and the far left, and communists and fat. I mean, I studied this stuff. Yeah. But the idea that you could be somehow, you know, blamed for having some connection. This is what normal human people normal him being duped this guilt by association, and we have to rise above it. We have to call it out when we see it as it were and realize what we all need critics. We all need to engage with variety of you points. That's what John Stuart mill said. That's what common sense will tell you. And if we have institutions that don't expose students to a variety of you points. It's possible that they are making them less wise when they graduate than they were when they arrived. Well, listen Jonathan we just crank through two hours. And I want to thank you for illuminating, these ideas, and for your great books, and and thank you for coming on the pilot, wait time, you wanna do it again. So again, thank thank you so much five, buddy. Thank you friends. Thank you. Tune into the show and thank you to squarespace for hosting Joe Rogan dot com. Go to squarespace dot com slash Joe for a free trial. Then when you're ready to launch us the offer code Joe to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website, or domain. Thank you also to the cash at the number one app in finance for fuck and good reason and you can download the cash up in the app store or Google play market for free and order your cash card today. And when you download the cash up into the referral code Joe Rogan five dollars. We'll go to you. Five dollars will go to Justin Rennes fight for the forgotten charity building wells for the pygmies in the Congo. And also excuse me, also the cash apple be continuing its support of UFC fire Ray Bork son by donating in additional five dollars to help cover his medical bills. At least until Ray is able to get back into. The octagon. Okay. Okay. That's it. Thank you, everyone for oh, no don't kettle and fire bone. Broth damn. So I started my day off with two, and I forgot I guess I put hot sauce in it that you don't have to it is d- list as one hundred percent grass fed and finished bones, and no bullshit, additives, preservatives, hormones antibodies excetera end, you there's a special offer for you listeners this podcast and go to kettle and fire dot com slash Rogan and use the code Rogan for fifteen percent off your order free shipping when you order six cartons or more that's K E T T L E A N D F I R E kettle in fire dot com slash Rogan and use the code Rogan for fifteen percent off. Ha. All right. We did it. Thank you so much. Thanks to tune in. Appreciate you much love to you all about.

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The Castration of the Modern Male | FRIDAY FIELD NOTES

Order of Man: Protect | Provide | Preside

33:41 min | 1 year ago

The Castration of the Modern Male | FRIDAY FIELD NOTES

"You're a man of action you live to the fullest, compress, your fears and boldly charge your own path when life knocks you down you get back up. One more time every time you are not easily deterred beating rugged zillion strong. This is your life. This is we are this is you will become at the end of the day. And after all is said and done you can call yourself. A man gentlemen. What is going on? My name is Ryan McLaren, I envy host and founder of this podcast. The order of man, I want to welcome you to the podcast. I want to welcome you to the greater movement. That is ordered man with the idea of recapturing and reclaiming and restoring masculinity in a society that seems to be increasingly dismissive of it, which is the exact subject that we're going to be talking about today with the title being the castration of the modern male. We're going to get into that in a minute. If you are new I want to tell you really briefly what we're all about here. We've got this show. Of course, your Friday field notes where you get. To hear from me. And some of my thoughts that I've been thinking of from throughout the week. We've also got our interview show where we are interviewing the most successful men on the planet. These are guys like David Goggin 's Jaakko Willink, Andy for Cilla, Tim, Kennedy Dakota Meyer, the list, the lineup of men that have joined us in this battle is absolutely phenomenal. So if you haven't listened to past interviews that we've done make sure you go back and listen, make sure you subscribe. So you never miss a podcast moving forward. And also, if you would please leave us a rating review, it goes such a long way in promoting the visibility of this of this podcast and this movement and the third show that we have every week is are asking me anything which comes out on Wednesday. Where Kip Sorenson my co host tonight answer questions from our exclusive brotherhood, the iron council and also from our Facebook group. So if you wanna learn more about what we're doing those are two great resources. Facebook dot com slash groups slash order of man and the iron council. Our exclusive brotherhood is order, man dot com slash. Each iron council. So with that said, let's just jump right into this today. No announcements I want to talk about this. It's critical critical that we address this that we recognize it. The we understand what's happening specifically, I'm gonna talk about again, the castration of the modern mail. I'm gonna talk about why this is happening. I'm gonna talk about what is actually happening. And then I'm going to go through ten very specific strategies that each of us can employ in our lives and lives of the men that we have responsibility for or the boys that we are raising. So that we don't continue to perpetuate the problem of these castrated men, and it's critical critical that we recognize it that we acknowledge it that we do something about it. Because if we don't then what will happen is the cycle or the process will continue, and it will be too late by the time that we wake up and realize what's happening. And I've seen a lot of people out there men included. Even men who listen to this podcast who refused to see the problem who don't see the problem who are ignorant. What's going on in society that continues to dismiss and systematically dismantle and reject the idea of masculinity. And it's not even idea. Just reject masculinity. It's not an idea, it's biological. So let's just get right into it. When I talk about the castration of the modern male castration, I think we all understand is removing the testicles and obviously being figurative here. I'm not being literal. This is exactly what's happening men are losing their balls, and we are becoming softer more effeminate, we are becoming weaker. And I believe that there is a larger agenda at play. I believe a lot of this is somewhat organic. And I believe also that a lot of it is orchestrated and it's orchestrated and it's moving organically by three. Main proponents of this idea of castrating men number one, it's perpetuated in the school system. Number two. It's perpetuated in the government and number three and more recently. We continue to see that. This problem is being exacerbated by the medical community. So I'm going to break each one of those down when it comes to the school system. I think it's no surprise that. Most of our young men and young girls, frankly are being taught by women. Now, I want to be very clear here. There's nothing wrong with women schoolteachers. In fact, I honor any woman or man who steps into that role and has a desire to teach our young children. That is not an easy task. It's often very thankless. It's very difficult to do. It doesn't really pay all that. Well, and a lot of the times it's very very frustrating and challenging because our schoolteachers are pigeonholed into the way that they're performing and the way that they're teaching. And the way that they're raising our youth. But if you look at specifically, there's three resources that I want to introduce you to that some of you may be familiar with that go deeper into the problem with the school system, especially in that at stacked against our young boys. So number one is Dr Leonard Sachs we've had doctor sax on the podcast in the past. He's got some great books. One titled boys adrift the other one titled why gender matters. And then also introduce you to Dr Warren Farrell who has been on the podcast as well wrote a book called the boy crisis and then Christina Hoff summers. And she talks about the war on boys all three of these resources, go more into depth than I'm going to go into today. But what happens is that? We have these boys who are growing up in a system that is not conducive to the way, boys. Learn they're told to sit down there. Old shut up there told to figuratively and literally color within the lines. They're told to do it the certain way. And then if they fall outside of the way that they're supposed to operate the somehow there's something wrong with them. And because there's something wrong with them. What do we do? We over medicate, and we get into ADD ADHD in all these types of behavioral quote unquote disorders, when it might just be that they don't want to sit in the classroom that they don't wanna learn that way that there's a more effective way of teaching our boys, and I'm not saying that these boys shouldn't at some point learn to focus, but there's other opportunities that will allow boys to learn in a meaningful and significant way that taps into that masculine energy that we see so many young men possess. And I think the school system has done a huge huge disservice. By attempting to turn off that side of our young men and silence. It when we could actually be harnessing it. And I think this is a large part of the reason that we see in the school system and specifically with. Are young men. More dropout rates. More suicide more depression. We see college entry going down for men women continue and will continue to get the jobs and get into college and higher education. That's because the school system is quite literally stacked against our youth. So that's the that's one problem. Again. We're gonna talk about how to address these things. Number two is the government. The government is stacked against men if you look at entitlement programs, if you look at the family court system, and how often men aren't able to see their children if you look at criminal activity men are more likely to be sentenced for longer periods of time than women for the same activities. A lot of this is really going to create a real it has created a real problem for men showing up in society men. Showing up for work and their jobs and men specifically showing up for their families. And I believe in addition to the attack on masculinity. There is also a huge huge attack on the family unit. And if they can strip away men from the family unit, I think they're going to have a whole lot easier time being manipulative controlling and then subjugating our citizens, which is alternately. I believe the objective. Then we have the third component the third tier of this attack, which is the medical community. Now, I think this is somewhat knew. But I think the problems are going to continue to get worse. And one of the biggest things that I see when it comes to the castration of the modern mail regarding the community, the medical community that is is this American psychological association's, blatant attack and dismissal. Not on what they would dub toxic masculinity. But on masculinity of itself, if you go in, and you actually read that study what it suggests is that the actress. That we would typically and traditionally associated with masculinity things like aggression, dominance, competitiveness, stoicism, what they've said is that these things are actually harmful in society. And that's the furthest thing from the truth. The reason that men display more often than women these characteristics is for good purposes. We just need to be able to harness these things it's not wrong or bad to be competitive. It's not wrong or bad to be aggressive. When the situation calls for it. It's not wrong or bad to be stoic, which I think they've misunderstood. What stoicism is not suppression of emotions please understand that stoicism is not about suppressing emotions it's about understanding emotions and then using him simply as a tool or metric for improvement in growth in somebody's life. So with the school system with the government and with the medical community stacked against men. I think we've got an uphill battle here. I think we've got a real challenging road ahead. And I think it's going to create some real problems in society. And in fact, I think that's part of the reason I believe that men and families also throw that in there as well represent the last line of defense against the powers that would be against the powers that would try to control and subjugate us strong, capable moral, independent sovereign men who are leading their families and leading their businesses and leading their communities represent a threat to a higher power that wants to control and co worse and manipulate and have absolute rain over its citizens. That is why this is becoming an issue. And if we want to continue to maintain our sovereignty and our control our ability to live our lives the way that we are intended to live our lives, and that we have the ability to raise our families the way that we see. Fit without being infringed upon then it's on us as men to tap into the characteristics and the virtues, and the qualities that make us men harness those things so that we can continue to live life. The way that we are meant to live and ward off any danger against ourselves against our families against our communities and frankly against our way of life, and I want to spend the bulk of the discussion on how we do this. Because the last thing I ever want to do is create an environment or a conversation in which all we do is complain about how the odds are stacked against us. And why this is so bad and what's going wrong and you'll find plenty of that out there. Trust me. I don't want to add to that conversation. I want to highlight what's going on. I want to highlight why the school system is stacked against us, and why government programs in the family court system in the medical community are working against men. And then I want to use that information to equip ourselves with the options to fix the situation. Mo. More time focused on the how we fix this rather than why and what is actually happening. So let's get into this guys. These are not in any specific order, and if you have more diff- more ideas about how we may enlist ourselves and other men in the tools that we have at our disposal to ward off the powers that would be keep ourselves as men and keep our balls. If you will then please let me know share that stuff on Instagram Twitter. Both at Ryan ler. My last name is spelled H L E R. I'm very very active on both. And I would love to hear what what solutions you propose as well. That's the whole point of order of man is that we band together as men to become better men, and to keep ourselves relevant in a society that I think wants to make us less relevant. All right. Let's get into this number one. We've got our recognize and reject the idea that that it's not okay to be a man that somehow masculinity ended of itself. F- is toxic. If we bury our heads in the sand, and we play stupid, and we play ignorant, and we pretend like nothing's really happening. And we don't actually look at what is going on. Then it's going to be a whole lot easier for these powers to be to control manipulate coerce. And again, we won't recognize it before it's too late. That's why this work is so important. That's why what we're doing here with order of man is so critical. I want to get out ahead of the problem not be playing catch up. So we've got a recognize what's going on. We've got a see these attacks. Whether they're deliberate and intentional or whether they're a lot more covert. We've got a recognize them for what they are and reject the idea that masculinity is inherently wrong, evil, destructive, etc. Etc. So number one recognized and rejected we do that by tuning into this information. We do that by listening to good books. We do that by educating ourselves and listening to the podcast. Cast and having conversations with other men. This is how we begin to recognize what's happening. And by the way, if you have somebody in your life man in your life who could benefit from what we're doing here. Make sure you show this share this podcast in vitamin the Facebook group have joined the iron council with you get them involved in the movement. Number two. We have got to be strong. And when I say, strong, I'm talking about physically strong, mentally emotionally strong because the stronger that we are in the more that we work our muscles. Our minds our hearts, our souls are physical muscles the harder. It is for anybody to have any sort of weight and relevance in our lives because we're able to ward that stuff off we live in a time where being strong, quite frankly is optional and so it's up to us as men to voluntarily step into hardship and struggle and challenge. So that we can make ourselves strong. In a society that doesn't require it. That's the hard part is nobody's going to tell you to go to the gym. Nobody's going to tell you to do something difficult. In fact, you're going to be rewarded just for showing up. We had these cute little phrases like showing up as half the battle. No. It's not half the battle. You're not even in the battle. You got to the battlefield. We've got to expect more from ourselves. So we've got to go into the gym. We've got an exercise. We've gotta make ourselves strong and capable. We've got to do the things that scare us. Whether that's asking for a raise or asking for the the woman out on a date. Whether that's speaking in public, the things that frighten you that scare you are the things that are going to make you stronger, and they're going to be able to help you ward off any threat when that threat presents itself. So number two is be strong number three live sovereign. I wrote a book called sovereignty the battle for the hearts and minds of men. And what I see so many men do is they're giving away the responsibility in their lives. They give it away to the government when they start accepting government handouts, they give it away to their boss when they know they could potentially go start another business. And yet they've got these golden handcuffs in the form of a 4._0._1._K or some health benefits. And so they give away any responsibility for their own life. We give it away to the school system when it comes to raising our kids, and then we wonder why they're not doing a good job. That's our responsibility. These are the things that we should be doing. We have to live sovereign. We also give it away to financial companies when we go into debt in order to have things that we don't necessarily need will. Now that company has wait over us. They have a bearing in our life, and they're charging his interest. And they've enslaved us with their dead. You've gotta live sovereign essentially, what I'm saying here is that you've got to be independent of these things if you can be bought off or manipulated because of your actions or somebody has there's thumb over you, then you are not living as a sovereign man. And your actions are going to be. Dictated by other individuals. So you've gotta live sovereign. You've gotta live independent. You've gotta get out from the thumb of your boss. You've got to get out from the benefits receiving from the government. You've got to get away from these things in his challenging as difficult as it is in times, especially if you've been living this way for a long period of time. It's critical critical that you do not enslave yourself to any other person entity organization or government, keep yourselves free fight for independence and freedom. And know that anything that you receive from another individual or from an organisation or the government typically has strings attached. And those are strings that you don't wanna be tied to live sovereign number four gain confidence gain confidence. I talked with a lot of men who seem to believe that some men are just inherently confident, and I would argue that if you believe that or see another man who you think is inherently confident that. May not be inherent confidence. It's either something that's been earned or it's an inflated sense of pride and ego. Those are the only two things that can be it can't be some sort of confidence that some individual hasn't earned. The fact of the matter is that if you want confidence in your life, you have to earn you're not entitled to it. It's not a right. It's not something that just some men have those who have genuine confidence are those who have gone out and done the things to my previous point that have pushed them that. Have scared them that have gotten them outside of their comfort zone. And because they're willing to do those things they gain confidence. And who they are. They gained confidence in themselves, and they're able to stand up for themselves because they're capable of doing. So so if you're walking around is a scared little boy, it safe to assume that you probably haven't done anything worth being confident about and have guys at Alaska me, how do I gain confidence with women? How do I gain confidence with with asking for a raise or starting a new business? You gain confidence by taking action by exhibiting. Some level of courage in your life that will allow you to feel good about what you've done that. You're actually able to accomplish something that you didn't previously think you could accomplish this is how we gain confidence. So take some notes and think about what it is. That scares you when you run across something today, that's freaking out a little bit write it down and recognize that if you can learn to plow through that thing or do it in the face of fear that you'll come out the other side more capable and more confident confidence is critical because equips us with the mindset, we need to stand up to other individuals and organizations that would otherwise control us so number four gained confidence. Now, again, these aren't in any order. But if you think about what we've done we've were living sovereign were independent of any other person organization where gaining confidence through action. We're now strengthening ourselves physically mentally emotionally. We actually recognize we've opened our eyes to what is actually happening that gives us the ability now. Now to speak boldly, which is point number five when we see these things, and we see what's happening and we recognize what's going on. And how the deck is stacked against men if we do these other things that gives us the ability to now, speak boldly a lot of men who reach out to me and say I'd really appreciate what you're doing. You're putting into words what I've always thought. And while I appreciate the compliment. And I certainly will continue to do that. My thought is inevitably why are you doing this? Why are you being out there? Why aren't you being vocal? Why aren't you talking with other people about what's going on? Why are you inviting people this movement? Why don't you starting your own movement? Guys. We've got to do better about being bold when it comes to our rhetoric and the things that were saying not only to ourselves, but other people are family or friends or neighbors or colleagues or coworkers random people strangers, which is obviously what we're doing here. When people find the podcast for the first time. It's critical that we speak boldly. We. We can't just sit back and assume that everything will work itself out because the vocal minority tends to be the ones who get the progress. It's like the squeaky wheel. So we've got to be a squeaky wheel in a way, we've got to reject this. But we've also got a talk about why we reject it and what we should be doing instead. But you can only do that. When you're confident you can only do that when you're independent you can only do that when you're strong. You can only do that. When your eyes are open to what is actually happening. But once you have those things in place, you need to speak boldly and speak out about what's happening. And if you're not willing to do that at a minimum, you should be sharing what we're doing here because I'm willing to do it. And if that's what it takes in order for more people to need to to hear this message. Then so be it. The next one despise mediocrity. I think this is point number six. Yes, despise mediocrity. Again, we live in a time where it's so easy to be mediocre. It's so easy to be complacent. It's so easy to just take the default path, and the path least resistance. Nobody's going to tell you need to do otherwise NATs. The rub. That's the challenge is that nobody's going to tell you to excel. Nobody's going to tell you to accede. In fact, in a lot of ways you're actually rewarded for blending in for being average for being mediocre for doing the bare minimum for just showing up. We can't be that way. We've got to be assertive. We've got to be bold. We've got to despise the status quo. We've got to continue to elevate our positions and improve in every single way possible by educating ourselves by getting strong by going the extra mile by taking on responsibility that isn't quote, unquote, our responsibility. These are the things that we need to do in order to excel in our. Own lives. Make ourselves more relevant more credible. And then DEA thority. Of course, that comes with somebody who is despising mediocrity and somebody who is excellent in a lot of different ways, if you're excelling at work, your voice is more credible. Your actions are more credible to things that you say and the things that you do carry more weight than those who were just going with the flow and wherever the tides in the current may take them so despise mediocrity reject it completely step into something bigger. And better in grander and boulder and make yourself better than you were yesterday and tomorrow better than you were today. Number seven. Yes. Number seven is that we've got to edify and sustain men in leadership positions. Whether this is within our community, our neighbors. Whether it's in were a work environment, even in politics, and I don't need to get into politics too much here. But it's critical that we find honorable men and capable men. Those are two different things, by the way, and they're not mutually exclusive. They need to be both honorable and capable. And when we find these honorable capable men, we need to edify them. We need to sustain them. We need to uplift them we need to vote for them. We need to support them in rally around these individuals, the more that we do this. The better off we're going to be I think about for example in politics. It's very easy to see that there are males in politics. But I think it's infinitely harder to find men genuine men who believe in all of the other things. That I've been talking about today who believe that. There is a dismissal at a minimum or an attack at the worst end of masculinity. But men who believe in the steps and the things that I'm sharing with you right now need to be uplifted sustained voted for and elevated to the position of leadership and thority, and when those men when and if those men fall from that if they start to deviate from the steps that I'm sharing with you right now, then it's on us to remove those people from leadership, and instill other leaders who are going to be more effective as men so that's seven. Number eight live morally live morally. There's a lot of discussion in question about where morality comes from. And I thought a lot about this. I'd love to hear your opinion on this is morality subjective. Or is it objective? I believe personally that its objective. I believe our morality comes from God. Now, you may not believe in God. You may not believe that's the case. I believe that's the case. So I believe it's objective. But at the end of the day, I believe that most of us if not all of us know, what is moral behavior because we all have a conscience, or in my opinion. We have the Holy Spirit guiding us and directing us and telling what is us. What is right, and what is wrong all of us know right from wrong. We have to live in we have to live it. And the only phrase that comes to mind when I think about this is through disciplined comes freedom. That's aerostat. Oh, he said that two thousand years ago Jaakko says through disciplined equals freedom is the same concept when we can learn to be disciplined in live morally the way that we know we should be living. Then we will be more free. But if we get into the things that we know we shouldn't be doing whether that's lying cheating, stealing short, cutting being lazy really what I would refer to as the natural man immediate gratification wants the result without the effort when we step into who that man is. We do ourselves and other people a disservice. And we make ourselves vulnerable targets guys. We've got to live morally not going to get into what that means entirely. But we've got to do. What's right? We've gotta have honor. We've got have integrity. We've got to have character. We've got to be disciplined. We've gotta make sure that our actions are in line with our words and all of us fall short. I fall short every day. But I'm attempting and I'm trying I'm doing what I can to live morally. So that I can live a better life for myself. And I'm less likely to be subjugated by those who would exert their authority or control over me. So number eight is to live morally number nine you've got to be enhancing your capabilities. In always you've got to become more, proficient. More capable you've got to become equipped with the tools and the conversations and the skill set, and the mindset and the resources to be able to fend off any threats to be able to have these types of conversations that we're talking about here to be able to put yourself and knows you have an obligation and responsibility for in a better situation to defend to protect to provide to preside you've gotta develop hard skills and the soft skills. So that you aren't reliant upon other people that you aren't giving away your sovereignty that you are confident that you can speak boldly that you are edifying other individuals men who are men that you put yourself in that position through your capability through your ability to perform, and ultimately, I believe that is the measure of a man not what he thinks about not what he wants to be. But who he is? And the results that he produces for himself a talk. A lot about the differences between a boy. And a man a boy is primarily a consumer. He consumes more than he produces. But a man is a producer. He produces more than he consumes, and we are able to produce more we're capable in all ways. So what information do you need to study? What skill said do you need to develop what area of life? Could you improve write those things down and start working towards those user twelve week battle plan system. Do whatever you can to make yourself more capable in always in the last step point number ten that I wanna share with you today is that we need to raise these types of men. I we need to be it. I think the underlying thread between the previous nine points that I shared with you today is that we need to be the type of men that are capable of reclaiming and restoring masculinity. We need to be the kind of men who aren't castrated who don't allow themselves to be castrated by the powers that be. We need to be these str-. Wrong. Rugged individual sovereign men and will make him learn to step into that role. Like we're supposed to then we have the ability to raise those men behind us. There's a huge huge problem talked about it. And that war is being waged. I believe primarily on our boys. Because if those boys can be indoctrinated to believe that masculinity is somehow inherently wrong or toxic. Then this problem is going to continue to get worse. So it's us men who have an obligation responsibility to turn around and assist. The boys who are coming behind us in growing up and becoming the type of men that we're talking about here that means that you need to be a father in your home. If you have children, boys and girls that it is now, your obligation, and your your moral responsibility. To raise those boys the way, they need to be raised. If you don't have boys. I believe just as a man in a leader in the community that you had a moral obligation and response. Ability to step up within leadership in your community. This could be within a mentoring program. This could be a big brothers type program. This could be coaching a youth sports team, whatever you can do to be a leader of men and boys in your community. The better off we're going to be guys. This problem isn't gonna go away. It's not anybody else's responsibility to solve it. It's not my responsibility to be the only one who's engaged in this fight. And I'm not there. Millions and millions of men who believe like we do who see what's happening who dismiss in reject. This disgusting idea that masculinity is inherently wrong in who are actually doing something about it. I encourage you to be one of those types of individuals. I am trying to enlist more men in this battle. It's an external battle against the school system against the government against the medical community. And it's an internal battle in that we are to battle and wage war against what I dubbed. His the natural man the guy who's lazy and immediate gratification. And once again the result without the effort. These are the battles that we are called to fight. These are the battles that we need to quip ourselves with the tools in the resources in information and the conversations and the capabilities to be able to wage this battle and win. So let me break these down again, and we'll call it a day number one recognize and reject what's actually happening regarding masculinity number to be strong number three live sovereign independent number four gain confidence. Number five, speak boldly against this stuff. Number six despise mediocrity. Number seven edifying sustain men in leadership positions. Number eight live morally number nine enhance your capabilities in all ways and number ten raise men, so guys. That's what I've got for you today. I recognize this as being a problem. It's not enough to recognize it. It's not enough to know that we are being systematically and figuratively. I should say. Castrated in society today. It's up to us to maintain our position maintain our thirty maintain our relevance in our credibility in a society that seems to be undermining us at every turn and we can do this. And we should do this. We do this collectively. Would you this together within the order, and I believe that as we had here to these ten systems, and these ten steps or strategies and more the strategies you are to share with me on Instagram or Twitter that we will begin to turn the tide of the battle that is being waged against men. So if you guys make sure again that you're following along with us in our Facebook group or connecting with me again on Instagram on Twitter. Both at Ryan Mechlin. I'm very active in both of those places. And that you do your part in this battle to castrate, the modern male guys. I appreciate you being on this path with me appreciate how you're stepping up in your life. I'm anxious to hear from you guys. And what more we could be doing to win this war? And I just want to let you know that I could not do this alone. And that I'm inspired in uplifted in edified. You guys every single day is I see what you're doing within the walls of your families and your homes and businesses and your communities. So that's all I've got for you today. Guys have a great weekend. Take the stuff to heart apply in your life. And we will all be better off until next week. For our interview show, go out there take action and become the man you on. Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You ready to take charge of your life? And be more of a man, you were meant to be we invite you to join the order at quarter of man dot com.

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Episode 177: Pure Linguistic Chauvinism

Very Bad Wizards

2:04:58 hr | 9 months ago

Episode 177: Pure Linguistic Chauvinism

"Very bad wizards is a podcast with philosopher. My Dad and psychologists Dave Pissarro having an informal discussion about issues in science and ethics. Please note the discussion contains bad words that I'm allowed to say and knowing my dad some very inappropriate jokes the bad. But it's not. It's the album Batman Postman. Plan the reason you they can have very very good man Justin. Wisit welcome to very bad wizards Tamla summers from the University of Houston Dave. Apparently the Social Science Manar Sh- literature richer has some fundamental flaws. Did you even know there was a social science. Menashe literature are are you talking about men Arkie Rickie like like like onset of menstruation. Is that how it's pronounced. It's their replication crisis in the literature on periods. Is it all just one big question Mark I. I don't know the details. This is from twitter. But apparently there's I don't know yeah there's sampling errors. Yeah not taking into account certain ages. I don't know the deal. I was just so it's monarchy. That's my understanding but now you have me doubting like the last time I I heard that word was spoken aloud was in my adolescent development class that I took I think don well so I mean my interest in it comes from being big fan as a kid of are you there. God It's me Margaret. I love that Book Day. Isn't that weird. Like I think a lot of guys just like like have memories of light reading that book and liking it a lot. It's very strange but it made me to you. Interest at according to her when she would get her period back when that happened weirdly. She didn't want want that to be a part of our relationship obsessively focused on her period. Yet you you probably want to have it. You probably jealous of your friends like no not at all. Actually it's not nobody feels that way Yeah I feel like I was interested in it because we were sort of like in a religious school and they kind of didn't like they didn't forbid us from reading it but they had like the boys the girls book and like walls like well wait. I'm not supposed to be the girls book like I'm GonNa fucking read the girl the reason. I think that it goes beyond just you me. I like it. Had Been Dead Pool like there was in deadpool. Your member and South Park has had a couple of references to it in their episodes. So I don't know maybe it's just our our generation than the carry-ons so well I was not aware of the controversies versus in the literature. I wonder if it's just like about estimating age there is there. I don't know if this is what's that question but there was this thing called. Uh a secular trend in the onset of menstruation that over time it appeared as of girls or appears if girls getting earlier and earlier for a variety of reasons. Maybe that's all maybe that's all fake. I think you're right. I'm looking at the Menendez monarchy. That's so funny because I can't tell this story but it involves me yelling out this word Tass appropriate time by French accent Shalem Menasheh. Why would it be monarchy? It's not it's probably Greek. I Guess Yeah I. I'm just surprised is there is a like a whole social science literature on it which is like you know I would think it would be a medical thing and it's really not something that's social science would be involved in but you know this is at at the expense of research on wet dreams. You know the last time you read a paper on what exactly. It's the the guys. The War Against Boys Christina Hoff sommers said by the way she'll be joining me for giving and next next episode exciting. I look forward to a stopping it. Halfway through whip up hysteria hysteria about the latest like crisis at Oberlin. All right so what are we talking about today. Oh Yeah we have a good paper to talk about by Alan Fiske call. This was brought to my attention at first by neuro skeptic right but then you suggested it because of narrow skeptic is well it's coming through with some serious some serious articles the lexical fallacy in emotion Russian research mistaking real vernacular words for psychological entities This year right psych review. That brand new secretary paper by Alan Fiske. Who What do you think about this? He might be the most underrated researcher right now. You Know I. Don't I love him so I'm very happy to to say great things about him. I don't know him personally. I don't know how much like he's an anthropologist so I don't know like in my mind he's like a huge deal but maybe for all. I know an anthropology. He's like this. You know red-headed Stepchild who deals with social psychologist colleges all the time. But he's a social psychologist as well. Is that Susan Fiske. Seems like everybody's named Fisk. It's like Susan Fiske Alan Fiske. Donald Donovan is Donald Fiske related to them. I'm embarrassed to not know like I suspect that it's their dad but they like the Kennedys of awesome Social Sciences Yeah. Yeah he's their father. Wow I thought Joe Henrik had this title for a long time but now he seems everybody loves Joe Henrik. Everybody knows about him. Yeah and there's a guy named Dan Pressler who also does great work from logical tradition But Alan page. fiske his kids relational model stuff and then he wrote the book on Violence with Teenage Ri- So I don't know I hope he gets all the credit we've talked about that paper burn. I talked about it in the very bad book. With him. And Tae J- I think that stuff is is awesome but I think it gets totally overlooked in favor of the found date moral foundations theory. Yeah and to be honest. I think that this the relational model is on on much firmer. Ground Jesse Graham that they're necessarily in conflict but I think that that yeah and we'll get into. I think one of the reasons that that he should be so well respected as just the sheer the scope of of data that he is bringing to the other social sciences honestly. It's hard for us to have somebody from anthropology apology. Bridge the gaps between psychology anthropology very different cultures and. I think he's done more in that way than than most people. Maybe Rick Sweeter just announce your dog on the PODCASTS. People love to know that it's my fucking dogs. UPS truck outside right now. There's just kind of crawling along this street. Trying to just take out a leaf blower right now. I think the two psychologists four beers have sent the ups ups truck to sabotage that they did. They're just sending packages not even to me but just to my neighbors shut the fuck up you know. That was a little off testing search for those listening still temblors having a heart attack in front of us. This is probably will be this or or like when I look and see my daughter on our phone like just suddenly grabbed my heart and freight train your daughter uh-huh oh yeah you wanNA give a dog update before we get to our opening segment brand new puppy. I actually calculated. He's barely eleven weeks old. And we named Him Ozzie. Melendez India's actually like after like at least three different references so I am under slept and currently hating puppies because fucking Handful and why do people include rain like when they say rainbows and puppies. Puppies aren't all that great unless you're just looking at them on video they're so cute but yeah they're they're a bit of a handful. You're also like a germ freak. So yeah so I can't and also I can't wait. Wait till we cut off his balls. Yeah you could just do it right now. So for our for our intro a segment I take it. We're GONNA talk about two main things the impeachment hearings and the Democratic debates yet. Your dream opening. Where do you WANNA start? There was a funny tweet. I saw like sandline. Testimony was devastating. According to many faculty members spoken to they just just like nobody's paying attention to this stuff. But I had about five different faculty you come up and say Oh these shit. You should've seen the hearings. He's a goner for sure. Now this is going to do it. Sick Burns trump is out of here air to The Republicans can't support him anymore. Even the Republicans They'll they'll finally have to admit yeah we were wrong. The whole you can have Merrick Garland on the court and then the democratic debates. Yeah what did you think of Cory Cory Booker's performance last night a fascinating. Which one is he the Black Guy? Yeah Yeah and I know. Andrew Yang is the Asian One and I Know Elizabeth Warren is. The woman won the native American. Then candidate your favorite. She is actually my favorite. Although I'm a little cooler than I was before any case we're not going to really talk about that right. No no although we the way that this episode has gone we might as well point. Yeah like I don't know if we should mention that you didn't you send like four. Dick PIC say Amy Klobuchar. That we're gonNA talk about that. My brother I don't know Kluber Sharia so I'm just GonNa yes and your reference not sure that's yes ending to say. I don't know who that she sent back returned to sender. It's actually my brother she he. He likes her attraction to her anyway. so let's talk about our real opening segment which was a shower idea. It was an idea came up with in the shower our because we didn't like our opening segment ideas and it also sounds like an idea that I would have on adderall. So maybe shower adderall. The idea idea was to connect the various social political factions in our current culture with the the factions in our field so to find the analogs the equivalent for me and in philosophy you in psychology and I texted it to you you said Oh yeah that'll be great. I said it could be fun and then I started trying. This required me to Wikipedia Kapadia. Various things like quote political factions qualified for this exact chew we get going with it. Let's let's get going. I sure let me let me start. By saying that. They're the areas in psychology are super nebulous. So just be bear with me By the clear the only one in fact one that you mentioned in your art text to me that has to be characterized in some manner and other is not an area. It's just a group of people and that group of people are the open science proponents of the world and the twitter heavy corrector of all wrong. The people who like to talk about A P hacking not being moral flaw but nonetheless treated as a moral flaw every time they accuse somebody these these are clearly the because of my of my field. Oh Wow though you're now you're by this. You mean like us on Jay's Savasta on on Sanjay the methodological terrorists number one I mean Daniel Daniel Lake and Sabinas ear. Your assignments is an all the people that you've taken the following. And this is why they're ANTIFA. They are Antifa because the establishment demint loves to point to them as As people who have lost their way in the quest for something good they have become the very thing that they it might hate and the maybe not the very thing they might but but in this case they clearly have lofty goals and then they spend their time making other people feel really bad about the errors that they may or may not have made in all of my pre two thousand and two papers I mean in all of their go into a little strong like I. I'm being being hyperbolic very much on purpose because I love all the people that I would give them a different label see. I was considering going all the way right. But they're not that way they're they're they're disruptors corruptors within a field of people who already might have considered themselves good scientists and they are. They're calling us to to attention. With with the occasional molotov cocktail. Yeah although they were working within the paradigm. That's how that's the reason I I am not working from from within a paradigm they're trying right the paradigm. They're not. What would you have gone with for them? Actually this idea came up I was talking with One of Y'alls and Mickey's Gas Jessica Flake. And she was saying how yo l is kind of woke about some of the methodological article problems Psychology and I was like. Yeah there's woke but there's there's also like I think he's more like a white feminist like he's still working working from within the establishment still bound by a lot of the same premises privilege. So yeah actually I might as well just say who my the white feminists are similar. It's experimental philosophers right. They kind of pose as these rebels and Mavericks challenging the establishment. But at least more than they like to admit they are still working within the same kind of boundaries of what's possible And this is unfair. But they're they're doing their part to prop up the status quo even as they seem to be challenging it by accepting the terms of the debate by accepting the terms of say of the knowledge debate. And then checking to see if you know cross culturally. People have the same intuitions intuitions or whatever. They're like well. You know one outstanding question that has not yet been answered is what the ontological status of tables is since time immemorial. oreo philosophers have been talking about this. But nobody's bothered to actually ask members members of the trump ender tribe. What what what they thought about the ontological so we asked them three items what is the ontological status of tables and whereas they're they're not questioning whether we should be asking what the logical status tables is in the first place or whether you know what the necessary and sufficient conditions of knowledge are all all of that so they are the white feminists and and by the way I? I'm I'm almost saddened that you had to caveat. This is unfair. This is profoundly unfair. This is an intro segment. This is not even close to two fucking caveats directly insulting people that I respect deeply speaking of people I respect deeply happily and people who made it in both categories. I am now you may not know this but I am friends with some personality. Psychologists and Sanjay it has made it t- to to to lists of my now the personality psychologist. This is actually much more kind characterization offician than my ANTIFA comments personality. Psychologists are like Gen. Xers they've been around and they've seen they. They had to watch all the controversy happen about personality. Psychology back in the sixties when it was taken to be damning criticisms from for from from social psychologists who you know the the newcomers who said personality psychology bullshit the nation power situation. They just lurked. They just took a step back into the background. WORKED THEIR ASSES OFF develop new tools at all. Geez They basically Szekely Larry. In the Sergei they built Google and there the Nevada. They changed the face of music. They have given us a whole bunch of of wonderful things and now they have to sit and watch like as social psychologists fight with the methodological terrorists and they can just say like fine. You guys go at it. We we've solved a lot of these problems already. So they're the LURKER. They smirk as we fight over. P hacking checking. Yeah although they might not smart after our second segment electrical fallacy. We'll see that's just. That's just what I 's TJ would say. No I is this. I don't know Myers Briggs typology right All right well I haven't I my Neo Liberal establishment. You know these are like the centrists like Biden and Hillary your girl clothes Shar and and also like never trumpers. You know the from the they. They've been in charge for a long time. They're a little complacent but they still have way more power and sway than we like to think and they are in my field. The analytic the armchair analytic philosophers. They still kind of like. We can all talk doc especially online about all the different ways in which philosophy's getting challenged but they still have a lot more power than you would think from blogs and twitter and philosophy awesome twitter to the extent that that's a thing you know maybe they're not as active on social media but they still run a lot of they have more power than anybody else. It's true they're like the they're like the mister robot opening the doors to the board room and everybody's looking they're gonNa make the decisions about whether or not you have a career. Exactly right they don't they don't the need to show you how much power they have. They do have it and you can have a five nine. You can have like big hacker. Whatever they're still going to end up on tap there's no beating them? Yeah yeah this is a little too close to home. Because I don't know what point. This is a metaphor anymore but social psychologists are very much the S. J. W. of the world I mean they they are progressive to to the point where progressive is a goal Rather than a means to an end social psychologists will jump trump to remind everybody the deep deeply important values of inclusion and the proper pronunciation of ethnic names. They will ask you your gender identity then ask you again to just make sure you're comfortable with the one you express the first. They'll have like he him in twitter profiles they they they they are very much. Desiring to bring Brin a bring about deep changes to the structures of society one linguistic correction at a time they also like wine a lot like they're constantly whining about how hard their life is is in there and the job is and they get mad at at mckeown's lead if he says I actually like my job. Well it's because you don't understand array coming from it's clear From such a place of privilege and philosophy that I couldn't understand what social psychologists has to go author. That is true. We do get jobs at like three times. The rate yeah. That's that's true that it's hard to know where One begins in the other ends all right so further technocrats these are people in their policy. wonks you know and they tend to be Silicon Valley people. They have all these high tech solutions for societal problems. I have as their analog. The the the kind of hard core philosophy of science people not the big broad question philosophy of science people that I read and enjoy but these are people who are there deep into the weeds. You know it's philosophers of biology cognitive science computer science Hans and like so they're the writing. There is dancing. It's complex and it's steeped in all sorts of terminology and it's it's very hard to know with them if they're doing really good work with really cool ideas or if they're full of shit and I imagine at some like like element of both in in that group but it's it's like the technocrats you know like if you I don't know I can't put in the effort firt of trying to figure out like to what extent they're onto something or not but I have a little bit of an aversion to them. It's probably just my bias and not anything grounded in in something real well. It's hard to hear you know talked about like it's hard when you when we're capable of evaluating papers in our own field. It can be frustrating. But I think that your your description is very much like a certain kind of cognitive psychologists. You mentioned cognitive science like there are people who plug away doing. Say like you know computational models of neural networks and I don't know if they're right or not I have no fucking idea and like they've they've machine learning thing yeah or they're studying some some super specific aspect of memory or attentional processing and I understand that much and it's interesting but the world never took interests so they but they don't care they just plugging away at their research. They're not knock. I'm glad well isn't writing about them right but the but they've never wanted to be written about in that way like there's something going to their conferences usually somewhere like on some some awesome place in eastern Europe or Germany. They can understand each other presumably and so good for all of them. I have no probably secretly making more progress than we'll ever back. All right my next possibly my last one is the the cognitive neuroscientists and social neuroscientists in my field. There the Chazan Stacy's of my field. They are they are widely viewed as the cool ones. They get to study the brain and every psychologist when whenever they're pressed for for defending defending their their field as a science they could just quickly point to a brain but they are the Chattan Stacy's in the sense that while l.. Everybody understands that they get all the attention and that people people think of them as awesome and true scientists Most most psychologists view them with deep suspicion and resentment so why while being at the same time envious envious of the attention and the grant funds that that are given to these chazan Stacey neuro scientists. They secretly think that it's a mistake. Stake to even be approaching the field through the lens of a neuroscientist because behind closed doors. They'll just complain. That chattan Stacy's are stupid stupid. Okay just to get clear on who this is. I like that a lot unaccounted algae. Is this like the Josh. Greene's the Rebecca saxes axes exactly. There's a whole cognitive neuroscientist who might fit more into your technocrat mold. And then there's the ones who who emerged that integrated social psychology neuroscience. And so. They're studying you know. Did you know that when that your self esteem is located aided in your left orbital frontal cortex like we did an MRI so for a long time. They're getting all the money and all the attention and then and and then for a long time people were were secretly they were hiring them and they were lauding them as the savior of our science and then secretly behind their back resenting getting them in hoping that their funding with I don't know who des makes the rest of US infidels. Yeah you know but that's actually actually is such a good analogy. I don't know if we have Chad's stacy's I don't think philosophy because there if we did did. Yeah I don't know I think we used to bear all Chad's got accused and let's let's be honest stacy's jazz. Yeah we've definitely never had stacy's and without stacy's maybe it's hard to have chance to. I have a couple apple other quick ones. Do you have any more you know. I was trying to characterize evolutionary psychologists at least have a certain ilk because they're they're certainly a lot of evolutionary psychologists does who just look at a animal evolution. But but the kind that we know that we're talking about like the kind who who who. I think. This is obvious you have for did I. I don't know I put them. I was going to say they're in the the alright but that's just on those. This is no I think there are more like the Ben Shapiro Dave Nice. That's where I met by alright. Think they're all right there. You don't think take or maybe Sam Harris and certain other dark web yeah their intellectual dark web exactly there w people. That's so a secret all right people hi Christina. They're like they're like Scooby Doo villains. At some point they will reveal reveal that they are all right when their emails decrying decrying. The I think that I think that might be the most accurate one. Evolutionary psychologists are the. Id Eddie ws you know they 'cause they also kind of framed their views as brain like right right and They they are doing. The Lord's work by telling everybody how poly-amorous is perfectly reasonable. Yeah so I have like. There's this kind of philosopher like the Notre Dame has a lot of these that are they're not exactly establishment because they're working on philosophy and they're still bill just focused on philosophy that's kind of outdated Like old metaphysics debates philosophy of language debates. That are kind of of old news. But there's like if you talk to one of them it'll be like you're in a time machine travel back to like the seventies the J. C.. J. Store stopped updating for them. Exactly and I like the neo cons for me a philosophy 'cause they still have some power but kind of the debate has moved on and even the establishment has kind of moved on right. Well I found this whole conversation deeply offensive on many many levels as well. Almost everybody listens to it as well. Especially Ashley since I am actually a social psychologist damned myself. I don't know what I am. Well you are. You're weirdly secret. People may not know this. But you're also a weirdly secret. You have weirdly secret S. J. W. Concerns and weirdly secret continental taught philosophy affinities. Yeah for sure. Is it that secret but you know maybe first time listeners. All right we'll be back to talk about. How if there are any listeners? Less we have not burned every single bridge edge. We either burned a bridge or we profoundly board people who know nothing of the stereotypes that we're discussing. This is nothing for for no people. All right. We'll be right back okay. 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The things Dave said there's a whole holiday just created to honor how grateful we are to you for for what you do and for the support they give and we try to reciprocate a little bit As much as we can with some bonus material -Tario on our patriotic page for our Patriot supporters. Dave you just did one. You said you were going to do it. And I didn't know that it was going to happen that quickly quickly but it was very quick. It was the most efficient recording I've ever had because Barry Lam is a professional more efficient than this recording slightly. Yes Oh Berry Lemon. I talked about an episode of Star Trek. The next generation is the host actually the producer of hyphenation find nation a philosophy podcast. It's now on slates network. That is like way way way better produced than anything I could ever but We talked about One of our favorite star trek episodes ship in a bottle has to do with transporter with holiday six and simulations and and the nature of consciousness in reality it was Super Fun. And we're GONNA do more probably all right. Good wow so and I want at least one. Twitter user. Caesar said it was her favourite bonus episode. Ever which I take deep offense to and I think Jesse Graham and the Talia wash take offense to it as well given the six hours of twin peaks bonus materials. She was definitely trying to hurt. You don't don't take it personally because she was just trying to her. But we appreciate that where we also have one once you get back from Dubai where you're going Qatar Qatar Minoshe we'll get back from anarchist. Can't believe you're GonNa Watch the remainder of dark right right while you're there on on the plane on the end and then we're GonNa do a bonus episode as soon as you get back in all German with titles cited I follow through the very bad wizards accounting my own instagram account. I follow the the show runner in creator of dark This was a tip from my daughter and he posts pictures of the third season which is going to be released. I think in June and It was a rap for Miquel today. When is Michael's we've been really enjoying mister robot as well? We're not GONNA do a Patriot and yet mister robot but I think a half to talk to Tamla about it so we figured we might as well record it so if you stick around after the theme music we're going to have a little mini mini mister robot discussion of season four episode. Seven cool. So thank you again. Everybody For All your support we really appreciate it and Let's get onto the main. Okay now. Let's talk about our main topic of today. And that is this paper that we mentioned before four by the psychological anthropologist from Ucla. Alan page fiske who we both already gushed about. called the lexical lexical fallacy and emotion research mistaking vernacular words for psychological entities. I think this is. This is a paper in psychological. Go Review which is our biggest actually oldest. I think journal in the in the field. So this is where you publish theory articles that that would cut across of be of importance enough to cut across various up deals. That would be of interest. Everybody so it's like it's a it's probably the most prestigious salad we have for what it's worth and this is an article that is focused on what I think is a straightforward problem but one that I think has been ignored as he points. And that is when you're studying if you decide what you want to do is understand human emotions and and you decide like how you're going to carve up the emotional world us you think yourself okay like like. I want to study emotion X. Emotion X.. What is it? It's an emotion that you have in your language so you say well. I want to study anger. I want to study for your I WANNA study Chelsea Elsie. Fisk is arguing is that we are making a deep mistake by relying on our language to point us in the direction of what what is scientifically true so he calls this the lexical fouls he says. We're relying on the words for emotions that we have in our language and in implicit sometimes explicit way but often implicit way. We're assuming that if our were if Arlen has a word for an emotion then that emotion is the right unit to to study our language carves nature at its joints right. What what philosophers would call a natural kind so if you ask the question how many motions are there? You would simply simply look at all of the motion terms in your language's lexicon and maybe narrow them down into a family and say well clearly there there there are Dr Whatever six seven basic emotions. He thinks that this is a mistake because for one there are seven thousand languages on this planet who's to say that our language happened to capture the right unit of analysis and and it turns out when you look at other languages as they carve up the emotional space very differently so it's not at all clear that every language shares. There's a a word that would encode for the emotion anger in the way that our languages do and it turns out. There's not a whole lot of research on this. This is something that is has been deeply concerning to me somebody who studies emotions because the question of how many motions are there and how we categorize them is is one. That's actually you know. At least at least since the Greeks Descartes famously made a list of what he thought basic emotions and we've been using these categories of motion ever since by saying. Oh what emotion you. Anger is to be loved assuming that it is actually capturing something real real here meaning universal like an actual aspect of psychology. When in reality we might just be redefining our emotional concepts the ones that are idiosyncratic to our language what I call disgust might be a whole set of emotions and what some other language calls discuss? It might not be any of those or maybe they have a word that if if you had to pick a word. It was To translate as disgust but it picks out all these other different different features of human experience. So yeah this is like right before we started this. I just want to emphasize how deep end distressing problem. This is for a field like ours like and it goes beyond just studying emotions it we don't. We can't look at emotions through microscopes or telescopes we don't see the boundaries of of emotions like we would Rocks or Adams what we have our set of methods that may be leading us a stray quite a bit so I think I mean one of the things. I'd like to talk about if what if if he's right. You know what it would really mean from within the field as a psychologist as you are studying emotion like what would you do So should we talk about his opening example. The emotion that he discusses. Yeah so he. He says he was noticing that he felt this way and a colleague felt this way that he was watching movies with his daughter and he found himself kind of tearing up at at certain scenes. I know you and I have talked about this. How will start crying during like a simpsons or something or big pixar movies movies? I'm I can be a basket case the closest kind of word that we have to describe that feeling is to be moved. It's not I it's it's it's the best we can do to describe that feeling and to try to figure out like sort of what it means because it can come at displays of acts of courage or acts where our family is coming together or. It's not so much what this feeling is. It is how he wants to or how he has approached studying being it and one of the first things he does is choose a different term. So he's he intentionally chooses the term term Comma Mata which is I guess Sanskrit term. He says this is what I am calling this phenomenon that I think might be a real natural kind but I but I'm not sure so for now it'll be a construct that I will call Comma Maruta and and by calling it that it allows him to stipulate the features of this emotion without inviting any any kind of confusion. Because we don't we don't have any associations with Comma Maruta and so he he then can stipulate what it typically is and so. He does that he says. It is a vote by sudden intensification of communal sharing relationship. It is momentary Terry. It is subjectively positive in various senses yet to be resolved when sufficiently intense often characterized by some of the following sensations in signs a warm or pleasant or other pleasant feeling in the center of the chest tear tears or most is being choked up goosebumps feeling buoyant making exclamations such as all like with your puppy putting one or both palms to the chest and it generates motives lives to devote and commit to a communal sharing and that is one of Alan fiske frameworks. What's interesting about? This is a I think he is is onto something about this phenomenon. But be the way he goes about trying to study at labeling it as something that doesn't correspond to an actual actual word that we have in our language you know. I don't know whether he named it. This before. Before embarking on his naturalistic a-list observations but at least potentially before he he mentioned in the paper one of the first things that he did was one start asking people about instances in which they were moved. Like what kinds of things do other people report right. Like our other people saying similar things to me and then he actually started doing ethnography so he got. He got his students to do ten week. Focus participant observation studies have practices end institutions. Where we expected to find and such an emotion so all just pure observation and this this paper just is a nice complement to the to the paper we read the Ross? The Rosin paper on on methodology right so like in one of my favorite parts of this paper is him saying like like. Let's take seriously the need to first of all. Go look at people in a careful detailed way and see if they are at at all experiencing seeming to experience similar kinds of emotions and only then. Can we say well this. This is a candidate for being something that we should put a term to right. But do you see a connection between that and intentionally not labeling it with a word whereas that we have in our language I think so I think that that there we bring to bear so much conceptual knowledge that is probably like a lot of which is just cultural that That he probably of what as soon as it could avoid avoided calling it moved moved. Moved as an interesting case because we don't have the baggage that we might have with an emotion like anger or or fear or sadness because we use that word. A lot moved isn't isn't so much like that. I'm so I think he had a little More Leeway to start studying instances of this without having the baggage of of a cultural concept. So here's the way I understand. This approach is. It's when you're studying it you you can and you're interviewing people and you're just observing. You're doing your ethnography. You're doing these very unstructured interviews. You can use whatever whatever terms I think are helpful. It's just when you start doing it. In a more formal scientific context for scientific journals and for running running controlled experiments that you want to avoid labeling it because that's when the the lexical fallacy is is most damaging and he goes through a list of of why it's potentially misleading or distorting for one thing you didn't it makes researchers think that self reports are going to be more accurate than they really are but I think in that initial stage it would make no sense to to try to talk to people about Comma. Muto them having any knowledge of what that is I think Kamimura is for them. It's for Rutta this. The scientific communication exactly the communication. Let's talk about why he wants to do that. What's wrong with just describing describing this as the motion of being moved and studying in that way but then using that term rather than a Komo Luta as your initial construct? It's such a tricky field. But but I think that that the reason to pick a word that does does not not exist allows people The freedom to report. Because let's get straight what the claim isn't the claim isn't that we can't talk about our emotional Oceana experiences. He specifically believes that we may very well have universal emotional experiences It's just that when we report those if we rely on the single word Descriptions of emotion we might be bringing a whole bunch of other information into bear and we might be missing distinctions or we might be actually combining things that could be distinct feelings so he wants people to be able to talk about the you know the consequence the causes like what happened. That made you feel moved. What what what happened while you were feeling we will happen after what? What was this specific feeling bodily? Feeling that you had and all those might be distorted if you put a label. That's already used onto it. So we have a very very clear script of what it means to feel anger or what it means to feel jealousy and we might be unreliable narrators our own emotional experience when we we are talking about a word like anger like a we might be actually less objective. I think at the heart of it's that in order to be really objective. Let's remove the influence of this cultural knowledge because what we want to know is what's the universal human experiences in a in a culture. It'd be one thing if every single language had the word that encoded for that very specific thing. But that's just not the case so we want to to try our best to find all of the More objective criteria. That might be evidence for whether or not being moved in. This case was emotion when you're honing in on an emotion it totally makes sense that you might have disagreements about what its various features are but there can be productive disagreements about that and unproductive ones and the unproductive ones are when you're actually talking about two different different things so he gives an example of a blackbird and and their properties like are. They never ask this do they. Where do they put their nests? And if British and American biologists are were not ornithologists if they have if they if one of them uses the term black bird to refer to one kind of bird. Another one used the term blackbird Akberg two different species of bird than their disagreements over what the blackbird does and what their behavior is. Our is going GONNA be unproductive because they don't know that they're talking about two different things and I guess what I understood this terminology to do. Do this not using your own. Words allows you to do is be very careful about stipulating what you think the construct is has once you go outside your own language to to label a phenomenon that you think might be an emotion Shen but you're not sure That allows everybody to know that. This is purely stip stipulate Tori. I don't know if that's a word it it just makes the lexical fallacy not possible because nobody has any associations with what Kama Mustafa would be. Is it just that what you you see it is that the word is useful because merely stipulation. Yes that's what I understood. That apparently like everybody knows that it's mere stipulation on. Yeah but at at the point at which They move beyond what they consider mere stipulation in which is where he is at the stage with comuter where he thinks he has sufficient evidence then that term is serving to not confuse the the construct by not using a term. That's common to to a language in their emotional lexicon because then they won't assume a whole other host host of things about the thing that you're studying this happens. This happens with disgust like some people really do mean discuss to be this broad social emotion and some mean it to be merely grossed out and when I give talks about disgust. I'm trying to say well by discuss. I mean this. Very specific grossed out emotion. Not Not the like disgusted at at the actions of our president but people leave remembering that kind of disgust. Because it's so doc it's such a part of our language and so does a bad job of communicating. Even though I already believed that there's evidence of it serving multiple purposes. And I think you're you're right that that it helps the stipulation stage but I also think it helps even once you believe you've collected evidence. Can we say just for our listeners listeners. And possibly also for me because I think I understand it and then I sometimes think I don't. But what psychologists mean when they call caused something a construct so our use of the term construct is pretty broad but what we tend what we what we want to discover are true features of psychology. So when we stipulate that something like extroversion exists we want. We really want to believe that. What what we're studying is a true thing in the world that there is this actual distinction and that is present in nature that some organisms particularly humans are more extroverted? Not but we can't measure that directly like there is no there is no direct measurement aspect of it. There's no blood test I know exactly and so we have to. We have to essentially say well what what would be decent evidence that this exists soon so we come up with measures but we know we're dealing with a theoretical construct In the same way that before we had actual evidence of seeing Adams or electrons or whatever for the the atom was a theoretical construct. It just seemed to fit the data. It seems to be useful when telling this causal story about what goes on psychologists are trying for that but unlike Adams there's no hope of like action line of actually having a microscope that will will show us an atom and and so often we mean some sort of a variable some feature of psychology that we have to use multiple methods to triangulate and and kind of discover that it might be underlying everything even though we don't have a direct measure of it so it's a theoretical entity that you believe exists would like to provide evidence that it exists knowing that you'll never be able to establish it like you can establish the existence of atoms but so then something like Comma Muto could be a construct and then also something like disgust could be a construct right right. I mean the end so a schizophrenia. Schizo friendly you yeah yeah extroversion neuroticism neuroticism right. These are all constructs strikes self-esteem of esteem grit right. It I guess given that you that's what you're working with always you have to by. Necessity is is working with contracts right as a social psychologist so that the debate then is over whether to use news. When you're labeling the construct whether to use terms that are very familiar to everybody like discuss or whether to do something thing else and I guess the worry with lexical fallacy? Is You pick a term like discussed by by just picking that label to describe the phenomenon that you're talking about. People are going to think that it exists because we use that word all the time as a natural kind of some sort because we call people neurotic we we call people extroverted. We call we. We say we're disgusted by things. When in fact act it might be the or at least our terminology for it might be covering all sorts of different incoherent things and it? It doesn't all it doesn't carve nature at the joints. So Yeah No. I was going to give a concrete example of this problem in emotion research. So if you're a Spanish speaker there is one word that Wednesday that means both shame and embarrassment. So if psychology had been developed bye bye largely Spanish speaking speaking populations they when they made their list of the kinds of emotions that we have they would put that on the list and they would include clued instances in which you felt. Shame and instances in which you felt embarrassed now our shame embarrassment actually two different emotions that are failing to be distinguished by the one label bid. Windsor I would think so. That label is doing is it's collapsing. It's hiding the fact act that there might be to to Constructs that that lump together as individual contracts that are shared with one label. And that we might meaningfully make progress by understanding them as two separate contracts but the word itself like how would you ever think to distinguish those If you are encumbered by the word so if you're them you wouldn't distinguish those two and for all. We know shame we could get much more fine grain. About what what we're talking about right right right exactly and so up it would be. I think. Here's what everybody's on board with. It would be a shame. It would be the terrible if there were real distinctions to be made real progress to be made in studying something like emotions that we had never even thought about because we had missed the distinction because our our language just simply hasn't labeled it The the the enemy here is the lexical fallacy. And it seems like the solution is to turn away from our ordinary words. When we're labeling a construct and I guess I'm wondering like how that will work? I mean he gives this extended example Kamu data and I guess the idea is by studying that he is able to give a theory that can be falsified and can be studied without unnecessary confusion. And without begging any questions about whether this exists or doesn't so it's a very it allows for a cleaner sort of scientific investigation right. That's right like clean is a nice way of saying like you start with a really basic question. In how many emotions are there at the heart of what fiscus saying is well. You won't get the right answer if you just count the the emotion terms in your language. That's IT and so once you accept that that step isn't the right step the whole process. Now lets lets you focus on things like the appraisals that give rise to the emotion. What context that emotion is likely to occur? In what the physiological you know or the subjective feelings associated with all of those things. You get sort of a clarity because you realize you can't just ask people. Hey did you feel moved. 'cause that answer to that just means something really different in in different context so I I think that it's a a a nice way of of sidestepping sidestepping a whole bunch of of bias in measuring something as complex as a as an emotion. Yeah and so prevents you from mm assuming that that just because the word exists the emotion exists it prevents you from over relying on self reports at some level. Though right isn't self report going to be even with you. Know you say okay. Here are the stipulated aspects of this. You still have to rely on for ports for you know feeling Kama Mustafa Right. Yeah he gives an example. People I think is informative here. Because you're right that at some level self report Of of certain things is going to be vital in gathering. The evidence for the notion exists. And so he's he points to case of envy and jealousy so Envy and jealousy. If you just ask people they very often say jealousy when they probably mean envy and envy when they probably jealousy. And so you're saying if you just relied on that Mike are you feeling jealous You would you might actually fail to realize that there really are these two distinct kinds of of emotional events and one has a whole host of features that the other one does not an even though. We're not good at distinguishing shing. It in English or at least Americans aren't very good at distinguishing. It doesn't mean that you can't collect a whole bunch of evidence around that emotion. So what makes you feel this way. What like what are the specifics about how you feel? So Jealousy for instance is often taken to to to be a fear. You're that you're gonNA lose what you already have whereas envy's that you really want something that somebody else has and those it turns out if you look at the way that people describe what they. I felt why they are feeling that way. It does collapse into two buckets. Those two emotions do it's just that people's labels for them are bad so if all you relied on with self report of the emotion emotion with those words you might lose that so. There's some recent work by Jim. Russell An emotion researcher on on disgust faces. And he says you know everybody. Everybody has been talking about the expression of discusses. If it's one thing but in reality there seemed to be to face associated with feeling disgust. One is the sick face. Like you're GONNA gag like you're you're kind of feeling sick to your stomach and the other one is that the like wrinkled nose Like like your nose turned up and those seem to be both in English. At least we call those both disgust faces but not in every language right in in in some languages those are they would consider those two very different faces. They're not they're not called the same Emotion when you show those two different faces and it could very well be that discussed. There's a cluster of things that we call discuss. That are about You know nausea and sickness and other one that are that revolves around just rejection of of something that looks disgusting. It could be that. Their sexual disgust is yet another kind. But we call all of those things disgust and so we might be losing out on. What the real by the way? This is what I really also want to talk about. What is what does it mean to be your natural kind? Yeah but at least. That's what Fisk keep saying. He says we want to get to the natural kinds. We WanNA get to Carnegie joins and the words we use are getting in our way. Yeah Yeah I had that question to one of the interesting parts of this. Paper is the different translations of anger in other for in other cultures. And so in one. So if you translate culture Anger the term anger in the inuit. ESKIMO language I won't try try to pronounce it means to feel express or arouse hostility or annoyance. It could also be translated as key. Kook whose literal literal meaning is to be clogged up with foreign material and that me in that translation angry. They believe that angry thoughts can kill will and that there is a wish to harm that's potentially lethal And so it's purely negative. It's purely something that is meant to to harm somebody. Whereas in a Micronesian if luke the IT might translate relate to song which is more like what we would call righteous indignation and it is something that is to advance the the possibilities for peace and wellbeing To identify instances of behavior that threatened the the moral order and so it has this much more positive positive community building connotation rather than the the word in the inuit which is purely negative and is something that is a threat I and then he goes through just a bunch of them and all of them have these different connotations. They're picking out different features and at the end. He says well our use of language and the way we define it to just assume that that is the the basic emotion rather than any of these other ones. That's the one that carves nature at the joints that presumes that English alone among many languages fortuitously capture as as a scientifically valid taxonomy of emotions and that's just linguistic chauvinism. He says I love that pure linguistic chauvinism. What do you think about that? I mean I think there's something deeply right about it. I think that that he goes out of his way to at least make some distinctions about what he's not saying. I think that is that. There's an interesting debate in emotion theory on the one side. You have people who have argued for for a universal set of basic emotions like Ackman like Ackman and these people will fisk things. They've they've reapplied what we mean in English by anger and they have gone about trying to show that every other every other culture in this case faces recognizes emotional faces zander and and and then we make we make our our lists of basic emotions where we think. Nature has been carpeted joints. Anger is one of those emotions You so you have that those universalist and then you have sort of on the on the way other side you have. People who are social construction costs about emotion. These people I think on I read. You might think that fisk is arguing something like this that And there are no universal emotions that emotions are a fundamentally socially constructed out of some basic material like convenience or arousal some just real real basic Quasi emotional reactions that are body has and then layered layered with concepts from culture and language and that. That's what an emotion is so those people would look at this and say well yeah. Anger is a different emotion in the long of the Philippines. And it's different in the Lucan. It's different in Americans Your mistake gives to think that there ought to be any commonality. That's what emotions are emotion. Simply are that layer of cultural cultural knowledge including include clued so it's a language that layer of cultural knowledge including language over whatever the affect is and it won't you can't expect it to be the universal because everyone has different language and and different cultural norms right and it could be universal but it would be universal contingently upon everybody finally adopting the same culture language and a fisk thinks. This is wrong as well. He thinks that no. They're very clearly early feelings. That are likely universal. Like moved or what. I'm not using. Shoot what's come French that That are universals. And just because you don't have a word for it doesn't mean you're not feeling it Which I think is is right? I think that that like analogy that. That fisk makes in the paper as well like with color perception perception. We all have. Is that roughly see the same spectrum of light give her take some people with reporter eyesight or colorblind. But very very obviously it's been shown quite a bit that different languages in code for different chunks of that spectrum so some some languages have one word that covers the green and blue. What would be green and blue for us? He thinks that if you're a complete construction EST you're basically admitting that green and blue aren't a distinction to be made that these people are their whole color. Experience is just what their language and culture tell them. So the GRA- Gra they'll look at grass in the sky and it looks the same or it. Looks like they're like yeah same other that's right And he thinks that that's not right. He thinks that the the things that constitute a caller experience are are features of our biology. That are independent of whatever language you have the same about emotional experience. So so you know sh I. I didn't know the word shot in Florida right but but once it was explained to me I was like. Oh Yeah. I've totally felt that it's not like it's not like all of a sudden. I had a new emotion when I learned the word I think that's kind of an absurd. Ah An absurd you so that two different ESKIMO words. That could translate anger. The debate is over. Where is the proper place to to cut nature of the joints like that's the hardest hit the heart of it right and so if the mets have two or three different words words for it? Maybe they're right. That's where you should cut it. You know or maybe like if it's the Micronesians with song that that's a distinct distinct demotion of its own and if they were doing a theory of emotions that would be a basic emotion. It's not that culture doesn't influence how we group the terms. He thinks that it does so. Yeah this is where maybe where we should start talking about natural kinds because what does he mean then by a natural kind if you think if you're a universalist and think you know we're all feeling the same feelings and there is a right way to distinguish them. And and what does that mean even right. Yeah he he points to hints. He says I this point he says well. I'm not an emotion theorist so I'm not here here to tell you exactly what features ought to collapse into one contract by. Here's what what he definitely wants to avoid right he he so so suppose there are you know there are seven thousand languages. Suppose there are thousands upon thousands Louis of words for anger that each pick up on something specific so Road rage I road rage. We might call it we breath. We have a very clear understanding culturally when people get road rage. What kind of people they are? What happens when they get road rage? What they look like what you feel like when you experience it He doesn't want to say that. There is a single emotion for every possible. Feeling that we're having right. He really wants to find a way to collapse. The road rage of some other subset of anger anger under these conditions. But it's not not anger I think think but he thinks that if you take a look at the Appraisals is the kind of a judgements that tend to lead to To anger in this case and you look at a particular kind of physiological arousal and you look at at a particular kind of consequence that like we should be able to find that there are common features to to a a whole bunch of instances of anger like there would be for common Mata where we don't have a word good word for it but this might include being moved at a pixar. Our film are being moved at the kindness of a stranger. or or whatever And that if you then upon looking at all those data you say oh there's something really common to all of these experiences they seem to be Evaluating what somebody did as bad or wrong and they want to bring that person to justice right if you find that then that might be a criteria for carving natured. It's drawn out again. He's very under under. He describes this because he admits that there is no you know like not every emotions going to have a distinct physiology no no one criteria criteria is going to be. He doesn't want to go down just to making the claim that it's all just physiology because he thinks that that's missing something important at the at the higher level of Organization of the mind but I think he leaves it open as to what what those criteria would be. So what do you think about at that. Like something like disgust. Honestly I have. I have an increasing problem with reliance on natural kinds as a concept is is a term as something that we should be looking to find. Because the more I've read and the term natural kind is obviously a much broader term about about about just the way nature organizes itself but it has been tossed about a whole lot in emotion research and I think that he is really misguided added to think that emotions will ever be a thing like rocks and Adams H. Two O.. which are you know what people might describe as much? I think that to think that we are Some how're not imposing imposing organization upon nature by our by our categories that that we are uncovering the true way that nature device itself for something as complex and psychology is just is just wrong. I think that when we find things like extroversion where we have this. Cluster of behaviors and feelings. Is that stick together. Then we're just making a statistical claim about how organisms with this kind of organization tend to tend to you know how those those behaviors tend to cluster. There's there's nothing magical. There's nothing like onto logically POPs into existence. When we describe that it's super contingent if if there were organisms that had slightly different biology? We might find that every time they experienced anger they smile right and I wouldn't think that ruins our emotion theory. I think like what. What role is the determination in this specific emotion? Trying to do in a theory of yours. And if it's trying to say explain then why A boy in the in the along of the Philippines goes hunting then that serves a useful role like it saying like. Oh okay there. Are these things things that lead for him to feel this that feeling itself and led him to act in this way and that works perfectly fine. It's it's the so so the word natural kind is just it's a red herring but you're but you're you're rejecting the kind of social constructivist view. Right yeah I think there could be as something very real about the way that the human mind organizes itself into these clusters and I think that saying that people feel this this cluster of Experienced this cluster of symptoms when they're feeling angry or whatever word we WANNA use is is true in some deep sense and it might be non contingent upon the word. They're using to describe it. It's just that there's no there's no magic criteria to let you know that you've discovered something. Surreal and it would be weird if there was. It's it's much like the discussion. We had about dentists view of the self right to me and emotion is maybe a a slightly more well organized way of of You Know Mitt. Maybe they're like one step closer to being objectively measurable then then the self but they're right around the like the same kind of thing so it's a theoretical fiction that is picking up on something and is still has some explanatory power. But if you're looking if you're looking to find some sort of ontological basis for sorry you won't find it because that's it you're making a category mistake right unless you are okay saying that something has onto logical a a status if it meets the criteria of being something nebulous like right. You could say well. No the self is real. I just mean like baseball is real like you're stupid to tell me it's not real. So what do you do. You think Alan fiske though thinks that there is some sort of magical ontological distinction between our. It's it's just a difference in terminology. How you think of natural kinds in how he's thinking of natural kinds in this context or do you think this is a real Substantive disagreement about how nature works. I my my real thoughts about what's going on here. Is that Alan on Fisk. This is not an insult office because this is not what he does but I think that he is using that term natural kind away that M- many emotion researchers have have borrowed that term from philosophy and in a way that what it betrays A. It's a stopping point at your thought. It's just it's like I've used it that way before. Like are we carving nature at its joints when we're talking about anger and fear. I think that upon reflection you have have to flesh out what you mean by natural kind and Fisk. For whatever reason he might fully have a view fleshed out. I'm not saying it doesn't it's just that he doesn't view it as his task. In this this paper he wants to improve the methods by which we call something in emotion instead of emotions and maybe that onto logical argument can be had in some other way. But I think that that's dangerous. Because he is making some clearly onto logical claims right right and he's coming up with a theory of Kama Mujtaba that if it's not falsified then he will think this is a real real thing so so. Do you think then about emotions like I think about a lot of philosophical concepts like knowledge and maybe responsibility and and free we will that they pick up on something for sure but if you try to come up with some sort of theory with really defined criteria The more fine grain. You try to get the more precise you tried again about what it actually is. Then you're you're gonNA go astray at that point. It's it's more of a family resemblance. Yeah I knowledge disgust or knowledge like anger or something like so. I think that there are slightly different problems problems with understanding knowledge in this way versus discussed and I think Craig I'm wrong. I think that you think that the concept knowledge isn't a concept that any sort of non modern floss for non modern analytic philosopher has ever really needed in that specific civic way. Yes who. Maybe knowledge isn't the best example. Because maybe that I think is in a different category than something like moral responsibility which. I don't think theft I actually investigation into it has produced has borne fruit. And it's only when you try to get too precise with your theories aries that years that you've now starting to lose the the threat. Yeah yeah so I think that we. We had a A researcher become just a couple of weeks ago to talk in our department. And she talked about emotions in animals and. She's very much social construction. She thinks that it's wrong to to say that feeling when it gets shocked is fear she says that. That's that's anthropomorphic. It's dumb it's unscientific. I think that things like disgust and fear and anger. They have some family resemblance features. There's there like fuzzy categories but I think that where where I can say that. They're real in a deep sense. Is that take disgust. I genuinely believe that Our response to things like putrid meat or fees unless we've learned otherwise is really a result of ah a particular set of selective pressures that gave rise to this particular response so all human beings who are experiencing this kind of like verse Avoidance Response To particular set of of stimulus. I I think there's something there I think that all of the layers of cultural knowledge knowledge play a deep role in our experience. What we remember when we think we should feel it all of the things like when we use it? Metaphorically all of those things but I think there is a core to emotional experience. That's like the raw material that we can use to be on safe ground for some emotions weirdly. I think they the co- The category emotion is actually way more useless visit emotion. Yeah right because people have argued like is disgusted emotion Or is it more like a biological reflex. I don't care like all I wanna do is describe it. So are you going to call disgust something else in future. Where sometimes I actually try to resort to the Spanish term? OSCO which is just grossed out because it doesn't have the moral or social connotation and we've done some work that we didn't never published on how different languages like in what context different languages use their analog for the term discussed so so in in language like French it's very much can be used as a social Term like it's it's fair to say that the CON artists disgusts me. In in other languages you see the word discuss that. We are translated as much more likely to be used in the context of food. And you know like bathroom stuff. So I think that we've as a field completely under like understudied it's exactly whereas in saying we jumped straight to developing a theory of disgust and anger and fear without bothering to check whether these categories the things were shared by everybody linguistically. It's actually kind of ridiculous and the reason that you did that. According to Fisk is that that you were tricked by the lexical fallacy. Well they must be real because we have words for it and now we can start developing helping theories of it by testing people and asking for self reports about. I think that's fair and I think we can be tricked and even more a a more pernicious way. which is that my response to understanding that there might be different like in Polish this this woman that he cites quite a bit? I can't I can't do just surname who's a WHO's a Polish woman who wrote a book recently. I haven't read. But she's pointed out that I think in Polish There are multiple words for the one word discussed in English. And I remember number thinking well. That's that's weird that they've divided the same emotion into three. It's not it's not even just it's like pure linguistic view. It's like no no. I'm aware that the new it have you know seven words for snow. That's not true but imagine but like isn't it weird. They have seven works for the same fucking thing. Yeah so it's interesting. He then applies this to his own own work with cage. Ryan violence He says consequently violences pernicious scientific construct unless used in an explicitly stipulated clearly delineated technical sense. And then he gives an example sample of his book with and he says and even then as Ryan I would have been less vulnerable to misunderstanding if we had voided using vernacular elect seem game violence to denote our construct instead of calling. It say I don't know what that Greek letter is you know let's say you horseshoe that's embarrassing but I mean that's interesting right because a lot of you know. The book was that violence can be moral right and I and I actually think moral the construct that they might not that invited more misunderstanding than violence right. And that's why I think you're right. Yeah the. They got into trouble when they were. You know it's like gang rape can be moral in this very strict sense. But if you say that that I mean that's a that's an example right like moral sometimes the construct and they do stipulate what moral means to them which is essentially that it fits within one of those moral frameworks. The four moral frameworks. But we have these other connotations. And so when you're scientifically communicating with somebody else you can do all the stipulating you want as they did and it will still invite misunderstanding. You will still be talking about Dif- different different things. And your disagreements in that sense will be unproductive yeah. Our language is so not fit fit for scientific precision. You know I was listening to another podcast that I that I liked called. Hello Internet and one of the guys was saying that He he used to be a physics high school teacher and he would say he was just using the example in a completely different context of when you use the terms work and energy and and velocity in physics they have such a very clear precise meaning. But when you give some examples of like well when this is doing work they take a whole bunch of other like concepts with them right. So it's not it's it's not that helpful when you use those in a non physics the context and I think I think that's that's totally the case now. I don't know though there is something really handy about. Being able to use is a common language and say well. I WanNa talk about disgust but by disgust. I mean you know and then put disgust asterisk now. Everybody at least has some sort of clear. Starting Point Sure they mis remember. They may think that I meant one thing or another but but the other error is that they never get what. I'm like the concept common. Muto will I remember this like next week. No I mean and he talks about this is the downside of this I mean number one. You know from incentive standpoint all of a sudden you're not getting written up in the Atlantic if you're talking about common mood rather than the emotion of being moved or empathy or something like that conversion conversion rate you might get an e but let's not cast aspersions on that wonderful magazine. Oh Yeah I mentioned you very nice profile. It's like are we never allowed to make fun of again. We could make fun of just. We just need a moment of respect me thirty second right nice article. You should be very flattered and honored by it even though you were committing the lexical go fallacy Left and right clearly yeah. It's not only that it won't get popular. It won't have popular appeal but it will be very hard for people to delight to to remember it. I mean this is an interesting problem actually like just to like we. Have we have enough going on in our brains is that we don't have to learn all these different words and this is something we make fun of philosophy a lot for. But it's it's kind of what he's recommending is that we you you know instead of calling. It disgust call it. Sh- mushed CHM anger. You Know Lake and that's coming from that same place right is is like trying to not have all these other connotations infecting your investigations. Yeah and really if you really care about doing. The science probably a better idea to make the error in that direction up precision. And and then later on you know when you're communicating. You can decide what to use but but I I really like I'll say what I really like about this whole approach is you know i. There is a ton of open questions about what a psychological construct is what it even means to say that we we have evidence for a real thing all of those things notwithstanding that you would take a moment to try to remove yourself from the bias is that you have and just collect good descriptive data. If that's if that's the only thing that comes from this kind of approach then I'm cool with it because you know collecting unbiased descriptive data. Something that I don't do well and our field doesn't do well and when he's talking about like what was involved in in this like I'm like wow fuck like I'm not the common I ever going to go spend ten weeks in like a you know what I mean. This is part of being an anthropologist. I think that that In this article fisk his saying look You can read like not even anthropologists have been to fifty different cultures right like they usually specialize in. I'm just whatever they specialize in and they rely on the ethnography of their colleagues to to bring together some some theory and and I don't know like it is. This is the sad sociological aspect of it. I need somebody to hold my hand to tell me what good anthropology anthropology is and where to read it and who to avoid. And what's stupid and what's accepted. And what's you know. And I think we speak so much about interdisciplinary stuff. We give all this like you know. Mock praise or we say that we're searching for interdisciplinary researchers but this is the kind of true interdisciplinary and that's going to bear fruit. Where somebody like Fisk has bothered to Publish Psychology Journal and numerous times already and and give me exactly that yeah right like there are a lot of things that I've never heard of that? He talked about here that now. I not go look up including like many of the words that he uses lexi including in all this is I get it fisk. You're educated. Your Dad was a famous professor. Do you think though that this sociologically speaking like what. If let's say he's right and everybody agreed that he's right way. Could it happen. Would you stop all of a sudden stop Stop labeling things according to their normal English terms would you stop doing. So how many experiments and start doing and start doing unstructured interviews which from what I understand. Psychologists make fun of because of all the potential for bias and subjective interpretation and stuff like that I save all my unstructured conversation for this it. I think that you had it definitely has an effect and and no I'm not going to go start doing unstructured interviews but I do I am. I'm more likely to do work on asking people under what conditions they felt this or that and I have done more work on on Looking at disgust in other languages because of influences like this in fact deers Beka like had a paper. That opened my eyes to this problem a long time ago and so I have to credit credit hurt. Now I'm getting old so I hope that the young and pick up more of this but at the very least I think that I know not what not to conclude based based on the nature of evidence that we have I think I am more likely to to seek out cross cultural evidence but but it's going to be it's slow it's slow. Yeah Yeah I mean that's fair. I'm I'm bullish on it. Let's just say that. Like the way that bet Fisk relational stuff influence. It's the field right like a lot of people. Read it inside it as if it were just anything else to read inside between Henrik Fisk Fest Ler these these. These people have really had an influence on our understanding of human nature. And they've brought it over to psychology in a way that I think a new generation is getting trained to look at that way. I think that's good. Yeah I'm in the whole weird thing that Henrik has had a huge effect of it's like part of like a interdisciplinary terminology now and everybody knows to at least is pretend to be worried about that. That's what you get a lot of disingenuously handwriting like like well. We know this is a weird population. Okay okay well. That's that's a good time to wrap it up okay. But before we wrap it up I want to know what what you really think because I've talked a lot but but I think that you probably have a different take on. SPF Thirty thirty seconds. You get an hour. I get thirty seven. I know I mean I'm really intrigued rigged by it. I I tend to think that we err on the side of thinking we can get more objective active about it then we can rather than just admitting that there is some projection. That is inescapable. I I don't know if this is a constructivist side or if it's more an epistemological stance where we have to study this stuff. With the the knowledge that the investigation itself will has a kind of perspective that we can't step outside outside of so a little bit of like doom quine kind of like. There's no there's no way to step outside of the theory. There's no pure data Atta that you're going to be able to get and to admit that But you know there are times where he he sounds like he wants to deny. Hi that and and just like we just need to get better job getting at the pure data than we already have and then we'll be able to carve nature at the joints in this universe away so when he's saying that I disagree with it but so much of what he's saying I totally agree with when he's diagnosing problems about people who are doing that just just without knowing that they're doing that you know in social psychology so I don't know that's my my certainly a lot of the diagnosis that he that that he makes. I completely agree with. That's no big surprise. I'm not sure if I agree with what he thinks you know will happen once. We stopped doing nat. Everything will be fixed. Everything will be I think that you're that you're right in that. It the most modest say way of of that. I have of understanding what this Mike attribute is that at the very least you sh- it shows us that that we are failing where potentially failing by our very own standards so yeah e. if we think that the right way to do things is to be as objective as possible. Here's a clear way in which we are shown to not be very objective to be falling prey to this and so if our goal and our beliefs are that we can get to cleaner sources of data then pointing to this barriers. Good now now you know I tend to agree with you. There's no such thing as clean data you know but but whatever we'll say there's less biased. Yeah there's cleaner data exactly. Yeah I'd love to do like a broader philosophy. Awesome Science Discussion about some of the stuff. I I have a dream of just perfect episode on construct validity eighty. I feel like we could get into another fight over construct validity. Even if we don't understand it but let's is. Let's aim for that. How `bout that same good all right well If you want to stick around we're going to have a ten minute discussion of Mister Robot. Oh by after the ALTRO BUT if you're not keeping up with Mister robot and you should be because it's really good this season. Join US next island. Very bad on the plan will raise. Then you Calibrate the good man. Just say they do not listen to this if you haven't seen episode episode. What was it seven this episode? That's okay yeah definitely this is. This is one reveal that actually really it might not be the central reveal but it actually I think would impact are- watching of the show even more. So like Brill. Brilliantly really acted and brilliantly directed and the structure was clever and like his gorgeous shot. Tim like it was just the moment limit that it was that started becoming obvious that what the truth was was that Elliott was molested by his dad. I thought to myself herself. No I could see it for like you could. It was telegraphed earlier not earlier in the show. I mean there earlier in that surly on the scene. Yeah in the senior. Please don't make that like and I. It's not that I don't think it's a deep distressing revelation about Elliott. And it's not even that I don't think that it explains a lot of what's gone on. It's just like oh it turns out. He was molested by his dad. The ad seems like a like a cheap move it seems like like a You know after school special like different strokes bicycle episode difference where remember I don't remember Gary really distress or it's like. He narrowly escaped getting lessened by Bennie. He left deadly in there. It was one of the most distressing TV that out but created a new idea to forget. Forget that and yeah that this is like Oh yeah. This is what what's been going on all along like it didn't seem like this was. This was even close to a show about that sort of thing that that that it it. It's a reveals like a like if if we found out that Bill Murray in Groundhog Day. If it was because of a brain tumor you know you'd be like I I s. like I guess that explains why somebody can be hallucinating. This reliving the day over to like there is something. Just leave it at Mister robot and end and not have this heartbreakingly emotional scene where I was molested as a kid. Well I mean okay. I'm interested that you had had this reaction because I didn't at all and I think most people didn't if you look at the reaction to the to the show and I'm trying to figure out WII had it so I I am too because it was super it was like uncontrollable like I actually was like no no like I can't believe this and and it was so well done. I mean Romney Alex Performance and also they actress that plays Krista was just phenomenal like it felt felt like even though. Obviously there's not a guy pointing a gun at some patients. Have when Vera was great too and that that whole thing. I loved the kind of counterpoint the comic counterpoint of his to the muscle or whatever his missile but They were very funny. One of them reminded me of snoop from the wire. Yeah she's actually rapper named young. Young Ma But so like all of that was really well done. And then when the reveal happened which I had never predicted and I don't think many people had I I like one or two people on read. There's a few you know I was like I thought back and thought well it it makes sense. I mean this is a damaged guy like really psychologically damaged guy he has created this big end identity. He has this massive social anxiety. That has been there from the very beginning. He doesn't like being hugged or touched at all. He is He's paranoid he. You know so so there. There were these deep. Psychological abuse of substance abuser. And at the same time. He's he's had this Mother that we've known has been an abusive mother and father that we always thought was his is only friend and there was actually a really good dad taking him to movies and And and helping him deal with his mother and the problems with her and then you realize no well. He was actually sexually abusive now. The way I understand it is that doesn't mean gene that they didn't have at times a good relationship and that he wasn't taking him to see pulp fiction or uh-huh or taking him to the Mister robot store To make him feel better or that he was only doing those things so that he could groom room him to be molested. It just like captures. What's so fucked up about those kinds of relationships those kinds of love where the father is actually does love the son and the son does love the father but the father is also doing this? Pretty much unforgivable. Forgivable thing to the to the child and it I don't know I thought it added a layer of 'cause if we never find out why he's like like the way he is. I I could live with that but I like to to come up with something. That psychologically plausible that doesn't that when you look back at the show seems to fit pretty well with a lot of the things even though we didn't We we didn't suspect it at the time. But in retrospect is okay. I can see that. And then maybe mister robot is a projection of the good side of his dad or the dad that he wished he he had or something. Like that I I thought I thought all of that seems fine. So I'm really surprised the that you reacted. Yeah and and I don't see it's either. Yeah okay so it's just to be clear. I don't think that that it was Unfair or out of the blue. I do think that as mail has had this planned all along. I do think that it explains a lot of what's going on. I think that my response to it was a product of a belief that it's a tropy way to reveal something about a character. It's like a if he had an identical twin and that also explained a whole bunch of things right like it wasn't tim that blacked act out an identical twin. Like that's the level at which like you were molested by your father like that's how it felt to me felt schlocky and all of a sudden. He's having these deep intense emotions. The stuff about like in everybody's point is I like. Oh make sense. He didn't want to be touched. That didn't need explaining explaining like that is very much the kind of personality that you see amongst people who were heavily into tech and coding. Right this is like a characteristic ristic spectrum e behavior where you're very socially anxious you don't like to be touched. Your relationship is with your computer and your code at didn't that that wasn't calling out for explanation at all like it seems team. Okay fine but it was very extreme with Elliot and what did call out for an explanation. The nation was the mister robot and his existence and ends and this we had an explanation. I guess that he died of cancer cancer which we should talk about. Do we think that that he really did die of cancer or or or yeah our in prison I mean. We saw his gravestone gravestone and people have said that he died so I think he did die. I actually think he probably died of cancer. But you can look back on a lot of those conversations. Where where he says he's sick and read it a different way now? Yeah so why. Was He intent on avenging his father's death from cancer. Well so so. You texted me about this Alderson loop thing that is A term for some some sort of bug and a computer that can own. That can't be it's like it puts it on this infinity loop and it only only and you have to restart it to restart. The whole program will at the very beginning running at the very beginning of the show. Oh he doesn't know WHO MR ROBOT is. He doesn't know that it's his father he doesn't know who Darlene is and so I think he's. He's blocked out at that point that I think he's beyond we catch him. Right after a reboot catching reset. He had reformat- The drive. Exactly exactly so so. That's why he was benching his dad because he didn't know that the dad his actually thought. Yeah and then Mister Robot about knows you get the sense that he yeah he did know because he was begging Krista and Vera not to have have this come out so he does know so he is a side of that knows this even when Elliot but he played an integral an integral role in in the five nine hack but that's also five nine hack isn't too to avenge wasn't just to event. Hosted hosted his actions or try to bring down e Corp because of the killing evangelists. That I mean I have Angela's yeah and and that yeah so I don't know. So maybe he does. I mean even if he was a molester it would still be bad that a chemical plant or a plant to build a whatever ever we don't know Was Giving people cancer including his dad and Angela's mom You know I think that that that it will all make sense like I buy it and I think that s mail will come through with explaining some of these things like whether you're asking whether Darlene knows or not which I don't think she does I don't think so either. Yeah Yeah and she was young enough not yet in the closet is very young. He was presumably protecting her right Because he didn't want her to go through the same thing. And that's it's a story that I've heard before know-how clinically accurate is but but when somebody sees that they're abusive parent is about to do the same thing to their younger sibling. I'm like that's when they actually do something about it But I it took me out of that moment in a way that was so oh jarring because it seems so it seemed so tropy that trump routing him out of the blue like. I can't tell because I definitely I definitely felt to me like atropine so I'm wondering whether I've just maybe been exposed to more things where they're reveal like it. You know feels like soap opera right report but there's a nod to twin peaks. I don't know I don't know what what what what is making me feel like it's such a trip. I do know that uncontrollably. It took me out and I still found it very weird. That Barra would respond lights lights. He did with that compassion and I actually thought for a moment. I know other people thought this I think I think as Millwood get a lot of ships. This was actually actually what was happening. I thought that Elliott was faking it to bring Vera to a vulnerable moment where they could escape. Oh my God and I thought well if he pulls that off then I respect the plot. Yeah I don't think so because I I. I don't think so either but I thought that might be a way to get out of the at the moment. That's okay now that you said that Elliott has been very manipulative this season. He's been like what he did with Olivia and the The oxygen or drink think I just think I think he can't like I don't think it would be ballsy as hell because I think a lot of people would be angry. Three and maybe rightly angry at him. But if the point is don't be angry with me being read Elliott. This is this is he is through the depths of his life. This is I just. Don't see it because also Krista who we've we've been. We were meant to think that she's really good at what she does. Seems to have diagnosed it already a long time ago. How did strike me as very consistent with what his plan was? He said he was going to break him down totally and then build him so so that he can build them back up and then that plus the fact that the revelation was also something. That was true about Vera. Allowed him to you know like to to to treat him both with compassion but also as part of his plan. Which is I'M GONNA once? He's completely destroyed. If I'm the one to help help build him back up then he's going to trust me and we're going to conquer all the corners and sell all the method New York by realistic. Is it do you think there was being disingenuously manipulative. Then yeah I mean. I think this was his plan right like his plan but do you think his his response of tears and like I see. Do you think that was genuine compassion or that was part of his act to break both know already broken like this. Was the building back up so those two things can go hand in hand. I think his genuine compassion and his manipulation are now geared at the same goal. And so I I think yeah I mean Yeah I. I didn't love Vera in the previous episode before this I thought he was great in this. I mean he did an amazing the job is just. He's fight it just. Yeah I just struck me as something. That was very odd for him to all of a sudden. Oh wait bro. You were molested molested like now. Now I'm GonNa cry a tear hug you like it. Seems like yeah. Kills your girlfriend but like now that I know your dad touched you liked happened to me. Too Bro twinsies. I mean like but I mean he literally said that that's what he was going to do in the previous episode. He was going to be yeah building back but not destroyed but that doesn't mean that he has to have it will be through genuine compassion right. I believe that he could have manipulated his way through through that there. It doesn't have to be. It can be both I think right now. I know but it can't be that both he was genuine and not what I'm saying. I is hard for me to believe is that he was I think he was. I think it was clear in the performance. And and then yeah just make sense like if they were if he had also been molested and then use that has some sort of engine for his anger and some fuel for for his power that he could try to convey that to Elliott like that it makes sense that he would feel genuinely moved by that. I guess I don't. I don't remember being genuinely moved by anybody else's plight like that was the thing about him right like he was so fucking cold was what if Krista what if Krista was so it clearly wasn't in his files that he was molested right right. It was alluded to maybe hinted at. Yeah so what. If KRISTA in the moment spontaneously came up with the abuse story to have Elliot play off of it like he realized what's going on because I think that that's yeah you'd think that it would be in the notes explicitly. I suspect he's been molested. That was another thing where I was like. Wait how does she know he was molested. He never told her like she's just inferring from the baseball bat story. Yeah but that's a big leap like unless Mister Robot told her a year a social psychologist on a clinical therapist. I'm closer to that though. Then you're I don't know I didn't I did read somewhere That A psychiatrist or a therapist who works with people who have been sexually abused said that that it was a yeah as accurate depiction of that kind of conversation minus the gun and the other person in the room that they've ever seen on film or TV. That's I don't want to take it all away from the craft with which I mean this is the this is Pinnacle TV anyway. We'll on this Maybe we'll do more of this We'll just never talk about mister robot except uh-huh in this context. I know I found myself telling like I was telling Nikki goes like. Is there any chance that you you'll ever watch this show. She's like no other is because then I can't tell you at all because really what I'm looking for now. I'm looking forward to re watching watching it with all of this information in mind It would be hard to watch this though knowing what you know and the with another person. That doesn't maybe we'll see I'm excited to see where this goes. I think Krista the fact that Chris does with him you know. Presumably Krista wasn't there he would do another hard reboot. Maybe after something like this but now that Christopher's there and the show's about to end in six episodes maybe baby that's not gonNA happen and so we'll see this this. This hasn't told us who the third is right like. There's definitely some ideas that I have and it hasn't told us what white roses contraption is. There's still a lot but when white roses saying saying that he needs to know we're on the same side. Do you think it's going to be like. She was abused too. Because I everybody that I don't think I'll be able to stomach that like like they're going to uncover a paedophile ring with their new cyclotron. I think we already found white. Roses trauma source. It's that the blubber. She had committed Simpson. Who committed suicide? Because she wouldn't take the job in America. Yeah so we'll see the I also think like I forgot. I had to read this that the the big Ceo uh-huh meeting the meeting of all the day group members is that night. It's that same night. He has to go like it's like starts in like two hours after Vera's killed he has to deal with God probably next episode. It's hard to wait arlene. It's harder shit. I forgot about this. But darlene was captured by the dark army. Me It's just a Lotta Shit Shit. Yeah there's a lot man. He's doing amazing job at this. We're I'm stopping Gordon elegance elegance. We're still not good at like being professional in that way you know.

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Episode 178: Borges' Obsession-Obsession ("The Zahir")

Very Bad Wizards

1:40:54 hr | 8 months ago

Episode 178: Borges' Obsession-Obsession ("The Zahir")

"Very bad wizards is a podcast with philosopher. My Dad and psychologist Dave Fusaro having an informal discussion about issues in science and ethics. Please note the discussion contains bad words that I'm glad to say and knowing my dad. Some very inappropriate jokes. Excuse me I've got a quick solo adventure go on and this one will not be directed by Ron Howard. He's getting poop when Grand Prix passes belly like that and leaves. It means he's going to go poop. Postman I man plan. They will raise you attention span very good man just to say bad quizzes. Welcome to very bad wizards. I'm Tamila Summers from the University of Houston. Houston Dave. What did you think about? Melinda Gates is billion dollar initiative. Yeah I didn't know about it until I listened to your forthcoming segment with Christina. How Summers had no idea but when I heard about it the billion dollars in I heard Christina's Stena's strong negative reaction to it? I thought why would anyone be opposed to getting money. That seems like it seems great. If if Bill Gates wanted to give like White Hispanic guys a billion dollars I wouldn't ask questions you just take it. No I think I I and and I say this I've had I edited it. You know loosely that that segment. I'm still not totally sure. What the initiative it does and why my stepmother is opposed to it To be fair to her she did not have her notes. At the uh-huh this this comes up at the end if you are going to listen to this segment which is upcoming Stay tuned soon for the end. Where we find Christina her her notes because they turn out onto quite extensive as originally? Remember when you listen to this we were it was it was the end of the night and all that implies when her a Thanksgiving giving where you've been drinking all day and doing other stuff so we're going to do that for the first segment. I actually think when my brother the David that is referred to most of the time in this segment he comes he he He's very funny. And I think my daughter shows pretty well in her very brief cameo but Yeah Christina and I were a little. Maybe too far gone. Well it's will leave. The listener was wonderfully wonderfully a substance. Free they keep threatening to get into a discussion and they never they can never actually find find their way. I was telling as I was telling Tamla. It's like a break dancer. WHO's preparing to dance? But the whole time that's all he's doing is like running around in a circle like that's but it's very much in the tradition of the very bad wizard special Thanksgiving special. I like my favorite part is when Christina Pulls out her huge Dick and slaps you in the face with it by asking you. How many twitter followers you have? That was some wicked stepmother. Shit right there. I did throw her batting. Practice his fastball. Yes after that segment we are going to return to the glorious bore Hess Bon dent well to make a bunch of metaphors And talk about what what after doing a little research seems to be one of his lesser known stories here but if it's lesser known it's still rich with all sorts of possibilities and ways understanding it and I'm excited to talk about it and what we are were now bore his hipsters. Oh you like Liars the Library of Babel. Yeah Yeah I used to be into that you know. Then I started anyways so Stay tuned now for the drunken and other things Thanksgiving segment and we'll be back to talk about Boras all right. Welcome to the a very special annual Thanksgiving meltdown. Meltdown with Christina Hoff. Sommers the factual feminist and the planer alarmist ready ready to catastrophe catastrophe. Topi and Hell Scape. We inhabit he's hammer won't admit it for once in your life you've had some drinks you've had. I don't know what you've had. There's been a lot of stuff and your daughters hiding behind a safe and all her friends have been raiding my weed so all right. So here's the plan we're going to read. I don't even have my phone. We we asked for questions the on twitter and then those people shouldn't have been on you've got to speak into the MIC. Those people shouldn't have been on twitter because it was Thanksgiving and it should be a screen. Free Thanksgiving so. I'm worried about my twitter following. I think that twitter is no longer allowing people who follow me because it's been frozen for a week. I'm just telling you I think that's what people say. When all of a sudden you know their their star is fading a little bit speak for yourself? How many followers I I? Oh Shit. Just give me a ballpark. It's it's much lower than what you have fewer so what we're GONNA do is we're GONNA take questions we're also going to do a special segment this year and this year. Only where I I. I'm like we're GONNA inhabit each other token open hell scape and then I'm going to be the skeptic and so just for the record Christina has been preparing for this and has detailed notes and she's GonNa have her Her Internet Weirdo followers. Like E. Tw- tweeting the after this saying dude. You got destroyed by Christine. That happens every year. uh-huh Gamer Gate like in Cell Wannabes. They're not even so we have very bad very bad wizard. You Got Destroy Juniors owners and I can tell by the questions they asked. These are not normal people. Listen to you guys and they say oh okay. Here's a typical question. This is your father my question for you. Ask Ask him who he likes. Better Dave Chapelle or that. Can I say that on the podcast cash. That's up to you. This is one of your okay. All Right No. It's your follower. Ask Kim or her. What are your pronouns? What are your preferred pronouns? He him he you ask him whether he likes Dave Chapelle as he doesn't even we know who I am. Just him to say Tamla picture by the way girl's name and how have you coped with that. Like just just tell us be open with the public. I take like a boy named sue. Yeah I made me tough will def enough to answer this question. Did you like Dave Chapelle or that chick from Tasmania. I don't know who the chick or the blank from Tasmania. I don't know who that is. You don't know who the net is. No what is it Hannah Gadsby. Don't you don't know he's a low information. PODCAST here all right. So is that your question. No I prefer Dave Chapelle versus someone from Kansas. Tasmania all right so you get A. Here's WHO's the next racist. Schiller embraced after Milo. and Andy. No No oh so. You can't pronounce Vietnamese names. That's already a sign that you need. No or workshops. Andy No Andy No is Vietnamese House. He a racist. Oh I guess guests in your world this you have to answer this. Would you rather be always slightly sweaty or slightly itchy. Okay you got to report this person to twitter. These questions are aggressive. Are you ask a question. Then you're not answering. You have an answer to single question. You're dodging the questions. What has gone wrong with Democrats? Why have they lost the faith of the people they once championed? Okay who are those people. Oh like in a Oh because like hillary like northeast elite establishment like go to Martha's Vineyard and like they've forgotten about them and they make fun of them in popular culture and so we'll you know and then then we have joker who is who who you're supporting President Bernie. Oh my God okay. Okay okay hear me out on this all right all right. Let's see why I have notes on this somewhere but I lost them. You prepare for this on the burning question. So are you against ends fracking. No here's what I want for like for number one first Jewish president. There'd be fun. Larry David Four Years Doing Bernie the as president. That would be hilarious. It'd be fun and not as many wars as your neo-con a like let's just spread a democracy in the Middle East. No they are not saying that now. They've changed you were. You supported the war. I think admit this and then and you. So you're a young person right because that's all the game or gate dudes that they love you and now you're on I love them and he's the perfect candidate in if you'd would listen to him and pay attention you'd be supporting Bernie that's outrageous. He's against a he does that. That's bird club. You're I guess. You're following Bernie bird clock. Don't you want someone that sympathetic to capitalism like gang but who also is humane. I like you okay. So let's agree on Yang for right now all right. Should we play each other side. Yeah all right you want to start okay. So my fair lady so so Christina. You're all upset now. Because they've changed the ending of my fair lady to make it more empowering for women which changed so that seems pretty good what why did you get all freaked out because they change the ending and made it about girl power and she doesn't get together other with Henry Higgins. She marches out. Everything's anger anger anger. My name is Christina Hoff sommers and I'm the factual Joel Feminist for the American Enterprise Institute. I think that the people who are attacking musicals musicals and trying to change the endings. Did you see in Koo Kings review once upon a time in Hollywood disgraceful. All right I'm Tamla and that's my step mom and she's like whatever and you know not going well. It was better on paper looking at like so we there are people here. We've never in there. Air like a very gloomy depressed. He's right now they look they look embarrassing. It's all right so let's get Real Melinda Gates has just given a mid not a million words indicates I don't think those words have ever like sequence of words has never been supposed to a billion dollars yes to to address inequities ongoing inequities in the United States. So you you are against that. She wants she wants to fast track. I wrote her took notes but I can't find. She wants to fast track the careers of women in key areas American entertainment entertainment government and technology. Fast track their careers with a billion dollars. What she going to do? And I am going to make a factual feminist addressing her and suggesting that the money could be better spent because it's not because of prejudice and discrimination that doesn't explain the gaps. It's an entertainment. It's not the solution. It's not something we need money for and I and what's going to happen is I'm going to write this and I'll send it to you what you think and you'll just say oh come McChrystal don't do this. Don't do this. You try to stop. The factual feminist tried to stop factual feminist. But hold on. I have a devastating in reply to what you're saying I just have to check my notes. Linda Gates both. I think you should talk to your favorite boys. Yo well in Mickey and they will tell you they will give you some way of addressing Melinda Gates by And give and telling her that Atta added that they're relying on is wrong but what they won't be doing is questioning the very methods that psychology uses to even get it these kinds of live questions. Linda Gates the gates family. Yeah kind of maybe. Oh y'all Mickey Oh God they love to go Davos and like hang out with their hot tubs with Melinda Gates the Idaho One Sun Valley. They show the more respect for your stepmother than you do and they have helped me and you should say nice things about your stepmother. I love my son on their uh-huh mothers get bad press and talk about an oppressed group whose mistreated and misunderstood in literature. I want that to be added to a group of people that are disempowered under patriarchy. Because you never hear about stepfather's think about it will you do but they're usually like Here's the thing I think we can agree on. We agree that there are annoying. Critics critics of art right now. They political they put aside sized things. They shouldn't politicise. They make they forget that that a work of art is a work of art is not only about representation and identity today you you made me. She was following me around my house. As I'm trying to get ready for Thanksgiving with a slate podcast with podcast or in Kupang and I apologize. I'm getting that wrong. I'm the slate spoiler special once upon a time in Hollywood and she saying something like I dunno so now it's sort of like makes me a little bit sad because I feel like if you took all the Tarantino trappings this could basically be like Charles Bronson movie or sort of like an NRA movie like the okay. That's what she said it could be. She said that once upon a time in in Hollywood is like an NRA movie pretty well so that sounds import part you play and you defended it and you said I think I agree with her. No the party that you played I totally. I agree with her. She said it's about the transferring of Hollywood from like the Steve McQueen's to the seventies kind of actor and that is it is about about that passage she compared it to the NRA. Answer the question. Did you think it was like a film that was underwriting. The NRA was at a Maga- hat movie. As did you set that. You did you from that. You absolutely did. This is not fair to know to to your twitter. Hot Edit. This out at Hamer Gamer Bro. Eighty two or whatever like it's not totally fair because she had had everything like queued he's snow and I didn't even basant and you've got to be open about it and I'm here and it's an intervention and a lot of your followers. Very bad wizard followers. Want this they want you to acknowledge that it's a dystopia hill. Scape out there in the culture. That's what I'm trying to say. All I'm saying is that people are allowed to have their takes and opinions about once upon a time in Hollywood and there's some people who view it in a way that I think is not the right way of understanding art. Although by the way I like that credit I like in Kupang. I like her take her vocal fry. Careful watch he can't say anything because you can't make fun of women's except except you made fun of mine was like some okay boomer stuff going on. I think that that talking about not your find your words find your words and no slurring yeah so the Melinda Gates thing again yeah. Let's go back to fast track career. Our what's next on your list. Okay David we have to bring David Data David and he was supposed to do some tone policing yeah I wanted. And he's supposed to also fluff and hype man a world. You create gated and a world. You know it's not that you know what David was supposed to fluff me okay. That's why didn't I thought I did. So David sources trusted sources have said I. I heard this on a podcast that you sent four Dick pigs taming Klobuchar come on. He's a comment. That cast is this is this is right on the heels of your van. Things about Amy Klobuchar. They can hear you speak. Have you seen the video of her throwing the binder at her legislative aid. You like. Yeah like that's hot. I think yeah and she eats her salad with a comb. which I like? There's a whole amy Klobuchar on porn hub like number one. The Algorithm has a go straight to Amy Cobra. You know he didn't say you're the one that sent the picks no no that I mean I have why would I like. Who would you send them to the Harris? No Oh nine. No no because I'd be put in jail for like forty five years for like and she got me on my possession of we'd Tulsi Gabbard it. Yeah yeah except for the no. She's awesome said a love affair with all over again. That's hot hot. Yeah yeah it's kind of dictators are hot. So we're we're a pro TULSI Gabbard family here so go back to the fluffing happier talking about the fluffing and yeah what do I did. How does he need a constant fluffing throughout? I just want to say that are my beloved granddaughter Elisa Who Introduces The podcast so people lower her therapist gave her a safety safety ball. How do you describe that bull? Come and tell us and bring the bull. Oh it's a big Blue Yoga Ball. I JUST WANNA say. I feel very uncomfortable and unsafe in this household. And this is the only thing keeping me from going insane. Okay that it was a plea for help and this is all. I don't think it was Lee for house. She no because she was behind the ball she was. I say that the Mike here just come out from behind the ball come out from behind the ball it you can live with busy. I'll only come if I could bring the ball all right all right so this didn't go that well any last thoughts. Okay last question. What is it like to have Tamla as you're okay okay? This is from a follower and it's a legitimate. Jim What is it like to have handlers your stepson and why is it terrible. Oh it's not terrible. He's the most he's the most wonderful stepson anyone could ever have. I love him dearly. I just wanted I just if I could just arrange his thoughts and make him a little more concerned about issues that concern the intellectual dark doc. Web well thank you Christina. It's always good to have you all right. So we're back very briefly because we have found Christina's notes that she has prepared for this podcast whole notebook but a lot of the pages are blank. I would not have been this intimidated. Tim Animated he had. I not had I seen the notes beforehand. So here's one it's the whole note card just says all right. Hi Charles Do you have any explanation for this card is at my handwriting. All Right Hi Charlie. Here's run Stiglitz Stiglitz Inglorious Bastards the Melinda Gates most of them say Melinda Gates which here's another negates dismantle berries. Yeah there is as a part of that she funded okay Rumpelstiltskin pantsuits. I had a point about the homeless killer. Point you so you were intimidated by every into real. Well no okay so I don't want to bring it up okay. But there was an incident involving you. Can I say the word yes. I can't say Krill. Do you know what a dream dream. Catcher is you jerked off into a dream catcher. I made love to dream catcher. Ager I you were accused accused of it by your best friend. WHO said I don't know what to make of it but I put it in my notes? Show the blind auditions study. Will you didn't ask me any questions. I just dismantled the Blind Orchestra Audition Study in the Wall Street Journal and on the factual feminist. And I don't get one one question from you about it. I've never heard of it. Okay you read it. You didn't read it the second behind a paywall and you wouldn't send it to me. Well I think I did read it. Actually it was good and you had help from. I told them I wouldn't say a word really. I don't know careful. Oh okay. Why couldn't Helen Keller drive? Why because she was a woman? I I got destroyed. You're right Gamer. forty-two thank thank you. Charlie hijack all right. Hi Charlie. Join US next Thanksgiving on very bad wizard wizard all right well. That was another Thanksgiving episode. I hope you enjoyed if you listen to it and now we will be right back to talk about Boras ahead US story the here L. Zahir Holes here okay. Let's take a quick break so I can tell you about about one of the ultimate life hacks. We're all busy people. 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You'll also save twenty five percent off. But only when you sign up at blink dot com slash slash. Very bad wizards thanks to blink for sponsoring this episode kind of ripping off the meat grinder. Nine complain MM Super Sweet Minor China. Listen meet silence trouble with the strictest do listening alliance Kissel sort of find sit stole all quarter one. Let's go have ten eleven glad she made a breadth foul. Some kids Pinot laughs of slow dance to open. Mansa talk was full fans and yes villains metal face to death stroke do credible as stay home studio while let South Stall in lanes came close at the bet paved over before Cheddar getaway. The best to get may cold was perpetrated. Art Famous demonstrated the perforated and all Welcome back to very bad wizards. This is the time where we like. Take to thank all of our listeners for getting in touch with us in all the different ways that you do all the emails that you send does the ways as you interact with us on twitter on read it on Instagram If you want to get in touch with us you can email us. Very bad wizards at g mail DOT DOT COM. You can subscribe to the Sub Brett. Red Dot com slash are slash. Very bad wizards You come follow us on instagram and very bad wizards tweet us at pease. At Tamla or the very bad wizards account at very bad wizards rate us on itunes subscribe to us on spotify. which I think does something? We're not sure and And Yeah we just really loved the interaction we love the community will hop-bon to read it. Sometimes we respond into some emails but unfortunately it has to be a small percentage. Because there's all there's a ton of emails that we should be responding to our regular of their lives that we have trouble getting so thanks to all of you. It is a true honour to to be connected connected to so many people through this podcast. I love our audience and you know we never say. Tell a friend about us if you want you know like a lot of people email us and saved they they put somebody else onto it and I like that. It's feels like a nice a nice way to grow our audits If you WANNA spurred us in more tangible ways which which. We always appreciate very very much you can go to are. You can go to our support page on very bad wizards DOT COM. You'll see a link support us or even in your podcast player of choice You can from their go to our patriotic count. We really appreciate are Patriots on supporters. Were going you too soon. Record another episode For our supporters are two dollars enough supporters on dark. We've been threatening to do it but I've worked my way halfway through the second season and I'm almost there we'll talk about it got and it gets really good. The second half of the second season is really good. No good six episode. It's the best episode like I've seen on TV all year. We'll talk about it so So yes thank you to all our Patriot supporters. You can go support is there and if not you can go give us a one time or recurring donation pay pal we very very much appreciate it. we put a lot of soul and hard work and effort for in to this and we don't expect that we deserve money but we really thank everybody who who takes the time and money to support us. Yes thank you all all right. We'll just start with general impressions of the story. What was what was yours so When I I I like I was confused at first? I thought it was a hard story to get into. Because it's sort of switches gears. Very fast You know it goes from its its first person. Bore his as he does often But probably unreliable able narrator and he's talking about a woman that he knows who died and then all of a sudden he's talking about Zaire. Well well I e talks about desire and then the woman who dies and then you never hear about the woman dies so I had to read this to two and a half times to to like actually get my bearings but when I did it leaves so much room for interpretation that this could it could be a lot of things I for. His is really giving us something I think to to chew on. I think this is true of a lot of them. You know they all have this central metaphor and the metaphor is the thing that ends up kind of destroying the characters but this metaphor unlike the others has almost limitless it lists ways of interpreting it whereas the garden of the port forking paths. There's there's a way to even begin trying to you understand that metaphor but in this case it's just a coin that you can't stop thinking about it the more mundane metaphor but because it's a more mundane metaphor. It is even more open to interpretation than the library of Of Babbo I was thinking about it. Like if you were just reading IT I. I don't know that you had to discuss it with somebody than you might think. What what was that you know and just stop like? They're like a lot of stories. It's difficult but then once you start actively thinking about it and hopefully talking about it because I haven't talked about it with anybody the ad like I think it's GonNa it opens up in a really beautiful way so I'm a I'm a fan compared to other stories it there there is to me. There's the storytelling bore his where you know. He actually has a narrative structure like some of his earlier stories about a person and this happened to the person in the garden of forking paths is very much like that. Then there's like more philosophical like the Solano bards like fiction but but fiction as an excuse is to talk about something like a a real philosophy like And this one is is like neither of those. It's it's almost a story. It's almost a philosophy but it's it's more just about some mystical idea and and Hints at at at Mysticism Awesome and infinity in a way that that I found satisfy so hurt some similarities. I noted with the other stories and also some differences like the library of like all of them. Actually there's this kind of weary defeatism in the pros owes its cold in this with this kind of fatalistic pessimistic backwards looking attitude that right. That seems like that's his prose style to the extent that he that he has one. And that's definitely here. There's also this threat of obsession. There is just an obsession. That's the central quality of this character. Bore has that we get and again Lake Tahoe. Uc Bar this all consuming form of idealism. There's like a specter actor of idealism. That's all consuming where all particulars have lost their meaning. And they're just kind of subsumed into this in this case case this coin or desire here depending on what bizarre here how it manifests itself There's so many philosophical fickle and religious references and that to even try to track all those down and what what of them are real and important Horton and one of them are red herrings. I it's it's very it's you know it's it's it's just packed with that in terms of the key differences number number one. There's a woman in it and there hasn't been a woman in any of or even like it's not even clear that women exist in their stories and you know you could definitely interpret this as a love story. Yeah that's something I want to talk about. And then the last one that I'll I note the difference is in the other stories where the character becomes obsessed it. It's they make they have agency they make the choice To do that. Like all the people in the weird cults in the Library of Babel or the the narrator later in the garden of the foregin pads in this story it is not the protagonists fault. that he is is thrust into this world of inescapable obsession. Now we can talk about whether that's true true whether you know there's a sense in which you can find agency in in bringing about his his end but But I thought that was a little the different than some of the other stories where it seems like the characters do have more agency so you WanNa go through the story the whatever plot that there is yeah. Yeah I want to I we. We didn't really say we just jumped into talking about the coin. Like the titular here is An object that has been become manifest in various different ways. It's been different things in history. But it's a singular object that whenever somebody perceives it it they become completely obsessed and they can't stop thinking about it and that's what I hear is it's been different things at different times in this story is I hear. There is a twenty cent Argentinean. Peso that bore his gets as loose change. Sweden that opening because I think that that it's it's kind of beautifully. Lisa sinked the way it introduces Yashar. Chur umbrellas the Zahir is a Common Twenty Centavo coin into arrays. Her or letter opener scratched the letters. N T in the number two the date stamped on the face as nineteen twenty nine in Gujerat back at the end of the eighteenth century here was tiger in Java it was a blind man in the Sura Carta Mosque stoned by the faithful in Persia. An Astrolabe throw labe that not dear saw ordered thrown into the sea in the prisons of Mahdi and one thousand nine hundred. Eighty two small sailor's compass wrapped in a shred of cloth from turban. Turban that Rudolf Carl. Von slatting touched in the synagogue in core bore according to vote and Berg a vein in the marble of one of the twelve hundred pillars And then he gives other examples. Today's the thirteenth of November last June seventh at dawn Zahir came into my hands. I am not the man I was was then but I am still able to recall. Perhaps recount what happened an still albeit only partially boras that's paragraph and and I like I was like what the fuck is he talking about like. It's a he just jumps right in by the way I can't. I can't not correct pronunciation of Gordon because I have family that lives there and it's just my moral duty. What did I say Corbeau? Something Finger That's just my neuroticism omits family honor and so oh so you're thrust into this like recounting of an object. You're like wait what it's a coin with an ingrate like what's the purpose of the engraving. Why is he talking about a coin? Like twenty cent coin and then he's like giving all of these really different examples like what I was thinking to myself. He saying it was a tiger. It was blind man it was a small compass and I'm like what was a small compass like what was the tiger. You know I'm I'm confused. Then I have to I. I think that he is purposefully. Confusing the reader And he ends that paragraph with saying that. He's not the person that he was. He's only partially bore. His and I feel like that unit of confusion and nicely with that like I you know he there is there. Is it's communicating. Something some feeling of like I don't know it already kind of distresses me to read that. Yeah because we have no reference. We don't even know that it's a thing that people can't stop thinking about the only know that it's Zahir but has no reference beyond the different ways that manifest itself other than Yeah so so I agree it is completely bewildering. And if you think you're going to get some help in the next back like the next paragraph I was like Whoa like honestly when I when I first read it. I was like. Why would anybody recommend the story? I don't understand anything that's going on. All of a sudden he just jumps into a completely different story. They'll they lena died on the sixth of June around nineteen thirty. Her various likenesses filled the smart reviews. A you have a different transition interesting. Yeah Yeah I do have yeah And he goes Zonta. Describe a woman like and the description of this woman is interesting very. It's it's hard to capture what he was trying to say about her. It took me some effort and I'm still not sure that I know What he's trying to say? It sounds like he's insulting her while trying to compliment her. So so let's talk about what and see if we agree because he gives these These analogies of Jews in the MISHNA trying to figure figure out what the rules are And also Chinese. I'm trying to come up with rituals and codes and rules for every every situation. She is a fashion model and she tries to do that for fashion modeling. She tries to wear all the things that are right. At that moment fashionable. She tries to affect a the kind of gays that fashion models at that time are affecting and she tries to go to all the places where a fashion model ought to go at that time and she does this successfully excessively For a while but then in the war she gets tricked into buying a hat. That that she's told is is all the rage in Paris Harris but it turns out. They're not wearing it in Paris. This shop Oh and so. That's kind of the end of her and she got conned into thinking gang that these cylindrical hats were in style and because there is very little communication with Paris because it was being occupied by the Germans. She didn't no but she found out later. That it was actually like wack like somebody just lied to her about them and she pretty much never recovers from that We also flourine that. She stopped having money and they had to move to a lesser part of bonus. Is I guess it's a more middle-class part of Brentwood has Ra's and she's getting older and so she just retires she quits if she can't pursue this ideal the deal that she's been pursuing because he no longer has the money and the youth and the access to information. I guess then she's not going to do it. Yeah so so so yes and then and then she just dies and and Well before I get to. What says about her when she dies? it is interesting this description comparing her to the Jews and the Chinese People who are searching for perfection in every single facet of their life they wanna I know exactly how to live their life and that description. It's almost you know it's almost like the A S we probably know people like. This is almost like a religion sickness that obsessed with how to do every single little thing. It's like a bit. OCD religion right scrupulously and she is like that that for for fashion here that aspect of life. It's everything to her. I mean my the metaphor that I was thinking of was like Plato's forms. She is trying to achieve the form of being a fashion model. And that is what she is. That's what she's chasing and if and like all the forms it's not gonna be fully accessible because this is real life by when she realizes that she she kind of she abandoned so it is kind of idealism. Perfect is the enemy of good. The desire for perfection becomes paralyzed so she just gives up my my translation says she chose to retire rather than to bungle besides it pained her to have to compete with giddy girls but the sinister apartment into that. What else was too much to bear? And then she just died on June sixth. Yeah you want to read what. He's yes all re At least my translation is shall. I confess that moved by the sincerest of Argentine Passions Snobbism. I was enamored of her and that her death moved moved to tears a question. Perhaps the reader has already suspected as much. And I'm like no no. I did not suspect as much you just just told me about this woman who is a fashion model. WHO's like super concerned with now? He tells me that he was in love with her. It's not even clear to me that he knew her. No rose at her wake. We learn but it's not an seems to at least be aware of her sister and may be no so one of her friends. We find out later but I mine says first of all of snobbery rather than Snob but otherwise and then says I was in love with her. Not Right I was with her. which actually think is different enamored makes it sound like like you can be with somebody that you don't know yes and I I? It's it's because the Spanish word in Phnom O'Donnell means both enamored and in love. So then they talk about her at the wake also very confusing using Because it says at wakes the progress of corruption allows the dead person's body to recover its former faces. What do you think he might means by this? I was so I was thrown off by this because it sounds like okay. So he's described her. Somebody who is constantly changing her face in order to conform to the to the fashion of the day like constantly trying different things aesthetically to to be to be whatever whatever she needed to be at the time and it sounds to me like what he's saying is that when dead. She went to her defaults face. You know like when she did her effort was no longer available to change her appearance. And so I don't know about the corruption the doesn't it also make. It seem like she was younger. Like is it just kind of a makeup thing that they were able to. You know. That's why I don't know. Yeah I like it. It's uncovering her true form or the the makeup artist made her look in a particular way. Like how it says. She magically adjective became what she had been twenty years before her features recovered the authority that arrogance money youth the awareness. Of being the Creme de la Creme restrictions a lack of imagination and Stolidi can give you know his wile of discussing these things. I'm just now now thinking that it is a particular kind of Irony that somebody who tried died so hard to look good and to look in a particular way. Never quite achieved what the mortician right right. Yeah exactly they achieved it in death. Somebody else did her makeup and made her look hot. This is dead hot. Like he's like you're saying like I'd hit that because he says no version of the space which had so unsettled me. We'll be as memorable as the one I now saw. She achieved perfection action in death. Okay so next day ours right now. That that night of the week he goes to a to a tavern and is given change and in the change is that Zahir the Twenty Centavo coin with the letters and he scratched on it and the number two and just almost immediately it starts to like occupy him. But it's interesting the way it does. At first I'll tell you what I think. So just like right. After he gets it he starts thinking about just coins in general and the ramifications of coins and he says the coin becomes a symbol for all coins and he starts thinking of all the different famous coins and religion and literature and history and as he's doing that he he's walking around when SRA's and he realizes that he's walked around in a circle so it's like he's walking around in the shape shape of a coin and then he gets more philosophical and abstract about it. He thinks of coins as as being not anything in in in itself there's no intrinsic value but there it's an opportunity it's like a gateway to possible futures which you can use to buy Music Kerr coffee or a book by potatoes that teaches us to hold things like coins in contempt? He says and then he kind of concludes. This part with the coin is a symbol of our free will. And that's that's where he is with the coin at this this point thinking about it. The philosophical implications of the coin as the story progresses it will narrow Arrow to really just the image of the coin itself But at this point it's very grandiose the way he is the thinking about the here right here when he's describing. Yeah it's like the coin is a microcosm of that represents something much bigger but then as you say it starts narrowing like it start. You know it. It captures him and and And then just almost like choking his vision slow but let's talk about that free will thing because I it's it's really interesting because coins represent something that you can buy something that you can do there. Essentially representing an act that you have not yet committed. And he says determinist. Don't believe in possible acts right like there's no right even describes like you know the way in which philosophers described free will which is that you could have done otherwise he says in my translation the determinist deny that there is such thing as a single possible act in the world that that is an act which might have happened and so he it's almost like the coin refutes determinism describes it right like wrote the coin. That's not true because I can use this coin to buy either the bronze record or a book or a cup of Coffee. So there's you know thus thus I refute determined them right. He's a repertory of possible futures. Money's abstract I repeated himself money as future time. He's holding in his hand. A Universe of infinite possibilities so he sounds like cited right. He's on the sounds like this is good right. He's he's asked. Yeah as this thing. And the way He's thinking about the coin is it's not you know groundbreaking but it's interesting. It's interesting to think of coins joins this way and to you know something as common cause I get the sense that this is just a common coined in Buenos Aires. It's like getting a quarter or something that and and yet he's starting to really imagine what it means to have a coin and what it could represent to end all the different coins coins in history and literature and their significance and he and he's just kind of walking around drunk thinking of these thoughts like that's that's all good at this point He Falls Asleep and dreams that he was a pile of coins guarded by aggressive. Do you know what a Griffin is. I've meant to look it up but Yeah Griffin is that mythological creature that is like an eagles I think it's an eagle's head and alliance ends body. Maybe Yeah Lines Body Eagles head and so I don't know what it represents. In fact there are a lot of allusions to mythology from all over the world that as you said earlier it would have taken me a you know a couple of days to try to track down every reference that he makes and I I you know I respect for his enough to know that he he wouldn't include a reference to a griffin without meaning something but honestly was like I don't have time mm figure out what he means by the Griffin there so he just piles so many of these things into his stories knowing. I think that unless year a scholar. You can't track all of these. You just this episode. Very bad wizards is once again. Sponsored by one of our favorite organizations is ations. Give well dot Org with the holiday season upon us. It's a great time to reflect on everything that we have. And if you're like me feel a bit grateful for all the luck that we have being born in the time and place that we've been born But that means that there's so many people out there in this world who have have less and I don't know about you but as I get older I really want to make a difference. I'm at the point in my life where I don't know I think it's just my moral duty duty to seek out people to help with all of the wonderful things that I have to reach out and and help somebody much less fortunate than me. But it's hard to decide who to give to right. So that's why I turned to give well dot org. These are wonderful spreadsheet nerds. They've spent twenty thousand hours. Each year are researching which charities can do the most with your money and I think it's a very reasonable thing to want your charitable donations to go as far as they possibly can can give wells. 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You can just use their recommendations but if you do WANNA sign up perhaps for for a recurring donations. Something that you can just set and not even think about you will be doing a great deal of good so go to give well dot org slash berry bad wizards and and consider giving this holiday season. Thanks to give well for sponsoring this episode of very bad wizards all right so then things take a turn a darker turn. Yeah the next day so he the next day when he wakes up he's just decided to get rid of it uh and like. I'm not quite sure where moved from like this world of possibilities to it unnerved him right when he wakes up he's distress. He wants to get rid of it. Maybe it's because he was in he was drunk now like that's the next day it's the hangover of the coin. The Coin Ryan has to do the walk of shame. Because you think of it like think of it as like a stone dorm room kind of thing. You're like dude. Have you ever thought about a coin. And then and it's fun and then you go to sleep and then if you wake up the next morning and you're still thinking about the coin. I could see how that would be distressing like last night was last night like we had a good talk. We had some good reflections. But but it's time to move on with my life and he's still can't get the point point out of his head and he says he looked he looked at it and there's nothing out of the ordinary about it except for those notch cuts the N.. T. and the two and so I can imagine thinking like wait. Why why did I think he tries to? He gets rid of it. I guess it's not even totally clear what happens to the coin. Yes so he says no he does he. He uses uses it to buy something but he says he wants. This is kind of interesting. He says he you know he could have buried or hidden in a library but he doesn't want to. He wants to lose it like in the way that he founded. He wants to actually lose it so what he tries to do is lose himself in his by like not paying attention attention to the streets in which he's turning and not paying attention to any of the markings on the houses and going into a dive bar ordering a drink and paying for it with the coin nine half closing his eyes. He managed not to see the address on the house. Or the name of the street goes home. Takes a sleeping pill and slept easily. Sound sounds like mine. So he's like he wants to have forget the whole thing Penn.. I guess it doesn't work. Because he says until the end of June I distracted myself by composing Tale L. of fantasy. Do we want to go into the tail itself student it's I don't think so. I can't tell that it means is anything but what I do. I think want to the thing that did capture my my attention is that he is. He is bored kids. He's he's talking about himself in the first person and so now. He says to distract himself he broadcast the guy who's telling us about fortieth writes a story in the first person. So right now we have. What more has loves to do right? He's popping down a level and telling us a story that he is writing in the first person so it's it says it is written the first person but does it say that bore has is the protagonist. Oh Yeah No. You're right you're right it's not a it's not obvious right. Yeah it's it's he that says the narrator is in the first person right that's that's I feel that in my desire. My desire for for another medal level Ah well in any case he pops into this story and the story is like just a mythological thing about a guy in his is guarding a treasure after his father turns out he's a snake and his slain. Yeah he's bringing in norse mythology policy here weirdly. So you know. He's going in this story. He talks a lot about just different mythologies and and like Islamicism and Judaism and here there he is just so what I got from it at least was that he's trying to distract himself from thinking of the coin and the way that he does as it is. He writes a story that is about treasurer and somebody trying to hoard the treasure. So it's like he can't really get it out of his head like he's he's even in his attempt to distract himself. He's writing a story about like money and coins. He also take some funny maybe self deprecating shots at himself is as an increasingly increasingly tortured style which might be a way of describing s has his prose style. The narrator praises the lustrous listen flexibility of his body and then and then In the net later he says I have said that composing that piece of trivial nonsense in the course of which I- interpolated with pseudo year radition. A liner to foss now enabled me to put the coin out of my mind but then he started to realize it did Dan and then he does this weird thing where he becomes competent that he can actually forget that coin. He says that that some nights he felt so sure of being able to forget it that he voluntarily summons it to mind as if like testing himself. You know like Gandhi sleeping with with naked women in his bed to test as part of chassis. He's like I'm Gonna I'll just a little bit just so I can show that I can get rid of it. But then. He says he overdid it and he. I also just starts to tell himself that. It's just like a coin And he starts getting all these other coins to try to make himself forget that sort of the opposite of what he was doing doing it. I which is this coin is a symbol from all for all coins. Now he's trying to say no. It's not it's just that particular coin and I can have another another client and I can get that you know like they're that and so but none of but it doesn't work. I like to think that this is a shot at at a when. He says that he did some frustrating experiments with Chilean five and sent five and ten cent coins with Uruguayan. Vinton that that's Argentinian. Would totally take potshots children. Your this is some South American. Some internal beef share then. He goes to psychiatrist this. You know there's not many jokes like outright jokes in your house but I thought this is as close as we get. He says I did not come. Confide the entire absurd story to him. I told him I was tormented by insomnia. And that often could not free my mind of an image of an object Any random object a coin say and. Then that's how they leaving. Embarrassed is example. Yeah let's just call it a coin first. I'm asking for a friend. And then he finds a book that reveals to him and to us. What's going on or at least yeah? What could be going on right point? We don't know we have no idea. And in fact it seems as if he might not have known why he was being obsessed even though he opens by describing that coin. As of this. I hear it might just be that. The knowledge that he gained from reading. This book is allowing him his described that it was as I hear and he didn't really know so I think it's definitely that yes. Yes he's writing at after Riley events that he's described. Yeah so when you read the book threat so the belief in his I hear is Islamic and apparently dates from the eighteenth century in Arabic Zahir means notorious visible in the sense. It is one of the ninety nine names of Gods so so there is in in and it is said that has ninety-nine names and in fact a very good yeah. I'm a little mad that didn't you. You're totally you're totally. You're you've you've fucked yourself. You realize you have blasphemed the name. I'm of God you did. That was that was here. Means Is is one of the names of God and in fact it is one of the ninety nine named and and mine says visible manifest. Evan manifested right manifest is actually I think the better translation okay. Yeah that's interesting because the coin is manifest or a manifestation of a more general category. Have thing which is why here but here. The Zahir is the manifest of perhaps God. Yeah I was reading a little bit about the ninety nine names names of of Allah and the Zahir Name is name number seventy five and apparently it is particularly difficult to know what exactly is being described by this here the manifestation of God. It's apparently one of the more mysterious of the names So so yeah it is and this this gets back to sort of the the Microcosm Microcosm vis this coin while we will get almost like the coin is meant to represent all all things. It's something like that. I don't know if I'm saying it right but it's But but importantly I say he says that the that he finds in this book that the here in Muslim lands people. Use that word to designate quote beings are things which possessed the terrible virtue of being unforgettable and whose image finally drives people mad and that there's no escape from it it also says in this. It's it's not just a book it's People's accounts of other books and other. So there's this Guy Meadows Taylor and then Taylor tells a story to Muhammad Ali You you many of Fort William. I love vet detail. I said there was no quick creature in the world that does not tend towards becoming as I hear But that the all merciful does not allow two things to be as Here at the same time since a single one is capable of transmitting thing multitudes. Then there and he added that there is always a here he also noted that allow was inscrutable. That I take got to mean that anything can be as here. It's it's not meaningful. What the Zahir manifests itself as it? Just Oh what do you I think it means that all things tend towards becoming as I hear quit his at me. I had trouble with with that mind. Says every created being tens towards I hear so I mean I. I don't know what he means. Means you get this sense of of This pull that everything is trying to be the most important thing in the universe but only one gets to be everyone's ones trying to get chose but then and it but it says creature right not everything and in fact all all the all the Zahir examples are not people right there yeah. They're not a hate pictures picture. uh-huh animals but tiger the description by the way of the tiger is is Kinda cool. The Guy who who painted in his in his cell a tiger sure he was intending to trace out a map of the world but he just drew this monstrous image of tiger of a tiger with tigers fused. In it like it's the description sounds pretty. fucked was tiger composed of many tigers in the most dizzying of ways it was crisscrossed with tiger striped with tigers and contains sees sees and Himalayas and armies that resembled other tigers. And you know I should say like the tiger is something that bore himself seems obsessed with they come they come up over and over again and all his writings and and so that description of a beast beast of a tiger seems like that might be what haunts bore his himself rain and maybe he knows since this is a slightly later work of his he knows is that people know that about him so he says over and over I read bar locks monograph. I cannot sort out my emotions I recall my desperation when I realized that nothing could could any longer save me the inward relief of knowing that I was not to blame for my misfortune. The envy I felt for those whose Zahir was not a coin but a slab of marble or a tiger. How easy it is not to think of Tiger I recall thinking diluted and also not exactly the opposite visit of of his obsession his or his own obsession with tigers right so maybe it's just a joke? Yeah but in and why would tiger be less. You know like it's it's a hilarious laureus sort of counterfactual that I think capture something about like you know like when I'm having a problem and you're having a problem I might think to myself. Well Yeah like I wish I had your problem. Mine is much much more difficult like I have to think of a coin. I'll either so there's a kind of delusion their thing it's already going a little bit crazy. And then he says I also Recalled the remarkable uneasiness. I felt when I read the paragraph one commentator of the go sean arise states that he who has seen the Zahir here shall soon shall see the rose and quotes a line of poetry interpolated into a Tars Surra Nama the book of things unknown unknown. The Zahir is the shadow of the rose and the rending of the Vale. I do not know. I'm sure he's this. Sounds like on allusion to to maybe the Virgin Mary Who is often sort of associated with a rose and maybe I I'm not? I'm not at all clear. What so what this means? Do you have any thoughts not yet. Although that's I didn't know that about the Virgin Mary and so that does relate to kind of broader Interpretation that I might want to spend so I'll talk about what the N. T. stands for and I think so But she shout out to the any audiobook narrator who has to read these stories and look up how to pronounce these things. Because I cannot be a and not an enviable task All right so then He. He remembers that on the night of Tia. Lena Taylor Lena's has wake the her sister wasn't there and and then in October he ran into a friend of hers and it turns out that she has been in a AH in a asylum and the nurses have to feed her she does and all she does is a about a coin and just like another this chauffeur that she also knows right so this thing is going around fucking like you know contagious right it can. It can affect anybody who comes in contact with it all right so we finished the summary and then and then I mean pretty much. He just says that the same fate of this woman Julia who became very strange and they had to put her in a sanitarium overtook him. So it's it's a funny way of narrating. He says Julius Fate will have overtaken me before the year. Nineteen forty eight and assume that this is before then but I wanna read this one passage acid I think is I'm not sure when he's writing it because yeah he's not predicting the future I think he is is he. Yeah Yeah because he's saying that hasn't happened yet and I can still walk around the streets. I don't have to feed myself Donna. That's the last part of your her but before that he says time which often softens recollections only makes the memory of Zahir all the sharper. I I could see the face of it than the reverse I. Now I see both sides at once. It is not as those a hero will remain of Gla- since one side is not superimposed upon the other rather it is as though the vision and were itself spherical with Zahir rampant in the center. Anything that is not. The Zahir comes to me through a filter and from a distance. Tayo Jelena's disdainful image physical pain and then he gives this Tennyson Metaphor about if you could understand a single flower you would understand the world world But now this is a here is the prism through which he sees everything and everything is receding more and more in in the distance and everything is becoming more design here until finally it is everything That it's the only thing that he will think about or be or understand right and he is here now explicitly appealing to the notion of a Microcosm Qasem Where he says the Kabul is considered a microcosm symbolic mirror of the universe? So this idea that everything is contained in one. Small thing that that this this small infinite has been can contain the infinitude of existence. He asked he says idea. And and then he also has this little thing about ideal is he's has idealist doctrine has it that the words to live verbs to live and to dream are at every points anonymous miss for me. Thousands upon thousands of appearances will pass into one. A complex dream will pass into one. Others will dream that I am mad while hi dream of the Zahir and he says when every man on earth things day and night of theirs I hear which will be dream in which reality the earth or those I hear and then this this is where he closes it out and he says I'm I can still walk through the empty hours the street at night as absurd. He can't really do it in during during the day Says Don often surprises me sitting on a bench in the plaza. Got I thinking or trying to think of the passage in the Australian Nama which says bizarre here is the shadow of the rose and the renting of the Vale. I associate that judgment with the reported that the Sufis attempting to lose themselves in God repeat their own name or the ninety nine names of the divinity until they lose all meaning which is really cool like that that is the phenomenon I forget the technical name of it but when you say a word enough times it loses its meaning Yeah so it's on selling try. Meditation is yeah after that. Same kind of goal. Yeah so you want to read the last bit you can read I long to tread the same path. Perhaps I will manage to wear way this. I hereby a force of thinking of it and thinking of it perhaps behind Zahir I shall find God so he maybe he can take the power away. Hey from it by thinking of it until it loses meaning and then maybe then we'll see the entirety right transcend the DR her. But if but is is there anything to transcend beyond those I if it would just be God but so here is another name for God right. Yeah okay. So that's the story man. So the quote unlike. Yeah what I'll just tell you just I'll toss out one thing. Ah You know this clearly is is a tale of obsessed obsessed excessiveness obsession yes and becoming completely flatly lost in something perhaps becoming completely lost in falling in love with somebody perhaps more religious You know this. I think there is something really that he's saying about the deep religious call to like. Lose yourself in God which is like a lot of religions say that like you know that's what you ought to do but if that's really what you ought to do. Won't you go crazy. Yeah so I think one sort of obvious juxtaposition that you can't not at least acknowledge is he. He's in love with this woman. Who Dies? He finds here. The next day becomes obsessed with the coin. Is that a metaphor for the obsession. That comes with being in love with somebody and when you're in love with somebody it's all you can think about. It's all oh you can't get them out of your mind. It just infects every part of your that when you're at first in love with somebody or maybe when you lose somebody that you love love so it seems at first like okay. There's there's no reason for her to be in the story and especially the the fact that it. It's so close together her death and him finding those I hear there some significance to that But because like at first maybe you could think think of it that way but then she just almost entirely vanishes from the story. She could have a couple of little hints of her of her memory. late in the story. But but it but it becomes so if that was the original sort of engine of the obsession it it is soon It's it's soon generalized. This to something much bigger than that right right and so so maybe maybe it's just about obsession in general. Maybe it's about. I don't know you know she's I struggled to to fit in. Why not only why I? He opens with her which I mean he might be obsessed. He doesn't really say that you know he just says he was in love with her and and and it doesn't mention too much and but what specifically does it mean to bore his that. This was a woman who was constantly changing her appearance to fit in or constantly changing herself in an attempt attempt in a failed attempt to become to achieve an idea so perfection. This is my icy this as running through a lot of the different aspects of the story is this kind of dissatisfaction with particulars and like the imperfections of life. And always always trying to generalize and to achieve an ideal and you see that Entail Delina story and you see in her tragedy where she has one mistake Jake that corrupts the ideal and then that's pretty much over so funny like she got. She got she got tricked into buying a hat that wasn't really in Fashion Ashen and that completely derails her at Connect that with Salon Akhbar which also had a much more kind of explicit threat of idealism as A way of kind of destroying the world and and also in bore in the Library of Babel those people who are just trying to figure out the truth ruth the one answer the thing that will explain everything it seems like bore has there is a kind of cautionary tale element. Don't in in. How he he sees this part of human nature and human motivation and drive but again like in this case ace is? It wasn't Boras fault. He just found the coin right. And then you get the sense that there's nothing you can do once you set your eyes on those Here whatever form it takes. There's nothing you can do after that. So that's the problem with that interpretation which I would love is you. I know Kind of criticism of our idealism and are wanting to abstract and generalize and And never being satisfied. That's fine with the imperfection but in this case it's it is more pessimistic. If if that's true because he didn't do anything it seems to earn it. Yeah I you know I I think that is consistent right With the general. You're you saying cautionary tale. I think is sort of the right words to describe what bore his seems to over and over again be orbiting us about an in some ways that infinite is this is the enemy of the human mind and to become obsessed with the ineffable God and the Infinite Universe and search for the perfect within. That is something that we seem to have as a fundamental motivation and and yet something that ruins us and takes away from our life like this you know the the coin becomes everything and everything for for his fades in the distance only the coin remains and and he loses out on life. You get lost in the infinite or yeah the the idealistic landscape and it doesn't even have to take a form. It's almost like you know. Plato's form of the good which is just composed of all the other forms. It's not a thing in and of itself it's just the perfection it's perfection itself and that seems like. Yeah what the the here is. I I liked what you said earlier. Where so it starts out that the coin is a metaphor for some concrete? Things is all these other coins that are famous in history and literature and theology and and also just maybe a symbol for possibility but earthly possibilities and and then maybe a symbol of our free will and then I forgot how you put it but it's like it starts to choke the imagination. I broaden John the imagination and then starts to choke it narrows your vision And that's maybe like a good description of these things they open your mind aimed at first but then they suck you in Ya and go crazy. Yeah we talked. We talked when we describe the library of Babble babble about this just be the obsessive nece that he's warning us against right the and it seems like it follows that same theme. It's just the theme. Now now it's about not about a infinitely large library beret. It's an infinitesimal thing that reflects everything I can. It sucks everything else out and and and becomes the only thing in existence for that person And maybe ultimately for all people for all people right because everybody can. It's possible that everybody will lose themselves to Zaire right. That coin gets around to enough people like a virus. Yeah we say yeah. Whenever he went on Earth thinks of Zahir Day and night which will be a dream in which a a reality the earth is out here so it is yeah? It is ideal as the threat of idealism that now like what if everyone is so focused their their entire mind mind their singular purposes focused on this here. They are creating new reality. which is we'll make all of the other reality just disappear in a way that I think is consistent with the with us here if no one is there to observe anything but the coin and the rest of the universe disappears in the Universe is the coin the universes Zahir Yeah Absolutely? I came across something so the N.. T. scrawled scrawled on the coin. Yeah and T- and then to maybe seeks defying the New Testament. And if you think of this in The Lens of Christianity which is really the one religion and that doesn't get Referenced Yup Yup the Rosen. The veil may be bigly in the N. T. vaguely but not explicitly. Melissa Lee never explicitly. Yeah and now you're going to have to correct me. 'cause you know a lot more about the New Testament and Christian theology than I do but it's there is this element of degrading of the earth. We things in favor of a kind of heavenly heavenly world the Kingdom of Heaven where there is just this one single pure thing like pure love and that that's everything and that that's what we are all passing through this transient world to try to to try to get to. Is that the description of. Yeah Yeah I think so. I mean there is a lot of discussion of Giving Yourself Holy God in order order to achieve perfection so like you know. There's obviously the belief in the metaphysical existence of perfection in heaven. But then there is this belief that you can like through through Christ like through the the love of Christ and opening yourself and taking in it sounds gay taking in all of Christ It only sounds gay for your man and And through that that achieving perfection. Right so I think that that we probably both came across the same article in the Paris. Review is is Yeah where were some quotes Where Jesus talking about the first of all commandments is hero Israel the Lord our God is one Lord Lord which is sort of a monistic? Take like there's one one big thing. And then he says Thou Shalt Love The Lord that God with all the heart and with all they sold old with all by mind and with all by strength this is the first commandment and that sounds fucking obsessive obsessive and it sounds like maybe the Lord or Jesus his does a here. Jesus is here and then and it's I thought that was really not like a really nice way of interpreting this and so when you saw the N. T. stands for New Testament and the guy says the two stands for the Second Gospel which is mark. And that's what he's quoting and he says something that I really thought was insightful. which is that in not talking about Christianity and and does this often he in a Christian country in a supremely Catholic country? He is giving Credence to Muslim religions and UH whatever else like Jewish Judaism and Islam. He's talking about them as if they are just as true as Christianity and not naught discussing. Christianity has sort of subverting the the the belief system of of everybody. Well I I think it makes sense because you know like Judaism and the Confucianism which he references is still more focused on on what we should do here on earth. Yeah the behavior right right. The idea of Christianity specifically that interpretation of of of of the Christian faith is in of a piece with the kind of idealism that Seems like something Boras. His warning US against in a lot of these works this kind of obsession with a a true ideal. And that's just not I think that's more characteristic of Christianity. We have a lot of rules in Judaism. But there's not an obsession with perfection right in. Christianity is often sort of by Christians. It is seen as a corrective of the religions autism that focused on earthly actions. Because the belief was that you're so concerned about appearance and behavior that your heart is not but your heart isn't in the right place right so so get your heart in the right place. And how do you do that. You give your heart to God and presumably. This will make your behavior good but but that's not the point. The point is to achieve this unity with with God and Jesus Christ as the conduit by which you achieve achieve union with God in fact the whole story of why Jesus is supposed to have come down to earth is because there was a separation between humanity and then God after the after the scene of Adam and eve and that schism was unable to be repaired until God could become a human and be a bridge right and so so. I like that interpretation that the coin is the bridge to perfection but really what he's saying that bridged perfection. Affection is going to make you a fucking crazy person who no longer cares about the the world around him or and no longer has the capacity to because thick they're not able to perceive it anymore. I I don't I I think with bore. Has I resist kind of now. He's been any. This is one of many that I think is that works really nicely But I think the great thing about boar has is you can read this many more times and come up with totally different. I mean one of the interesting things about this metaphor for like I was talking about how mundane it is just a coin in this case right so it's almost like the human mind can take anything everything and it will an end. No matter what it is you will be draw. You can be drawn at least towards this abstraction abstraction this this quest for perfection or idealism that gets in the way of so. It's it's in some ways a metaphor for obsession itself as you alluded to earlier. It is it. The object itself is less important than the obsession in or the quest It can manifest itself in many forms so maybe Christianity is one of them. But it's definitely not the only anyone Something that's just so part of human nature and it's so built in to us that there's also this thing that this only now have I like has become a clear to me what I was trying to think of earlier about the difference between his obsession with Zaire and Towed Lena and her obsession and the Jews and the Chinese Chinese and their obsessions. There is something that it's very complicated to try to live a perfect life as a fashion mall. There era a lot of moving parts. There is there's a complexity to to all of the things that you have to do all of the things that you have to do you to be a perfect. Do all the things that you have to be a perfect confusion focusing on the one kind of makes things a lot easier right. It is now now now I can. I'm not running the risk of getting conned into wearing a stupid hat. When I wanted to be fashionable I can solely focus on the one thing and this makes everything easy right so like I'm just going to focus on this thing? And he's never even though he talks about how it he's It's going to overtake his life and he can no longer feed and dress himself and he won't even know whether it's morning or evening he will not know who bore his was. He's never negative about it. He's never rejecting it. He's always like kind of neutral and kind of like well. He's obsessed so he can't knock those here. This is a here is still like this. Cool thing like he's not. Ah Not saying like well. He goes to a psychiatrist to try to rid himself of it and I think once he reads the book he says like there's nothing I can do. Yeah and so there is this kind of resignation but his debut says to call this prospect terrible would be fallacious. So he isn't it. I thought the thing that's fallacious is to call it his future because it won't be him anymore it's CONC- it'll come. Yeah Yeah you're right. There's something about identity that he's talking about so but And he says one might as well speak of the terrible pain endured by anesthetize man man when his skull is open because he will lose himself which is often in mysticism of all sorts. Whether it's couple ISM Sufi Muslim or narcissism schism. Losing yourself in that infinite is the solution. You're becoming one with with everything and so you're not used so it doesn't doesn't matter that I can't eat or or address myself like that's beside the point beside right and it's interesting that that's the goal of a lot of these mystical Ah Practices with Buddhism is to recognize that you're all things yes and no self and although it's a little different because you're not trying to become like a single thing right Your your draw a drop a drop in the ocean. You know bore his in in his story the Aleph he's also talks about a spot in someone's basement where you can see the entire universe so he's really into The microcosm like the being represented in a small thing like infinity being represented in the small thing. So you're not a drop of water in the ocean. That drop up. Is the entire ocean you. You're becoming the entirety of existence. And that's that met Tennyson thing here. If he could understand stanton flower you could understand the whole. That's the temptation. Yeah right right and the narrowing of imagination to yeah. It's yeah yeah you're right it's losing yourself in a different way. It's escaping this up. You know plenty of people have written about this robot much actually wrote some nice the papers about this. The the desire to escape escape the self seems you know it seems like the human condition is sometimes terrifying because we are this thing this self and we want to escape it and we do at various ways Baume I stir would argue that you know drinking and sex all these are ways of escaping the self and this is just a very explicit. You know go way of losing self. It's a it's very focused. I it's yeah and I know I've made this point but it's I in in these. He's other cases and even in these. The metaphors that were describing. A person makes a choice to do it and in this case a person just gets a coin I I suppose suppose that could represent you stumble on some book of Philosophy that just you that just consumes you and you can't help it or are you are born into a certain religion that I emphasize. Is this This tension be he because he talks talks about the coin representing free will and then but then the coin has essentially infected him. So He's like Oh yeah free will is a thing right like this. This coin represents presents. All of the the world is open to me and the determinist Are Wrong this coin represents free will but the whole time. He's getting sucked in in a way it's completely out of his control. Yeah and it seems like that was the way like he can try things like writing that story but it's they are not how can work and at a certain point he realizes that there's nothing more he can do except give into the coin that that in that giving in I think think is that like you know. Islam means submission And in Christianity. You give you break your will to become the will of God. It's that giving in that. He's I think in some way he's just giving into the coin and I think that's something that bore has maybe doesn't want people to do is historian definitely in a and to retain their interest in particular things and not just general abstracts single ideal things so and you know he's definitely writing this at a time where that was a a big. You know like Isaiah Berlin. I mean I I was thinking we've never done the hedgehog and the Fox right no I that would be great. It's a little long but it would be great to do but you know the idea right behind that is the hedgehog knows one thing. The Fox know very well. The Fox knows many things and I think for has is. It's more of a Fox in this case and worried about. Hedgehogs single-minded obsessive focus because I think people associated both Stalinism and Fascism with this kind of idealistic pursuit even at a political level. I think this is something that is concerning concerning Boras. Yeah and he's never overtly political but it could very well be that he is saying something political It also seems as if he is tempted by the one. He's he's he's a Fox who is tempted by the power of the hedgehog right he in the LS that finding being that that little thing in the basement that lets him view the entirety of the universe and all of existence is is tempting right. Losing yourself from the coin is tempting wandering. The halls of the Library of Babel is tempting him there is something that is calling him the ineffable the infant is really seems to be calling hauling boys because he writes so much about it but he is he objectively. Seems like to not want to give into that in a weird way is giving into it by writing these stories. But I don't know I mean. His character is giving into the person he calls. Boras is giving in to it but yeah I get the sense that he doesn't want to but that he feels. Does the siren call of it. You know maybe his stories are in our ways to to the masters behind my God. That's he's describing. And he's describing writing story within this to distract himself right and that's exactly what board doing. Maybe that's what this whole story ORI is. Stories are just trying to distract himself from the the the the awesomeness in in the old timey sense of the word of the of the infinite. He's he's just writing stories to distract himself That's that's cool. Yeah we always get a little giddy at the end of the episodes man. I wish you were still around for his. have him on the PODCAST. We should do is say ons took close your mind. You know it could i. I have more open to some of those weird do things than I ever have been in my life still not. We're going to have to talk about that all right. Well you open yourself. I'm going to go stare at my twenty five cent coin for the rest of the evening trying to try to escape my exist now. You have a puppy now. You don't need that's right can't escape. melts get myself from the puppy. Life is awesome until the puppy dies. Join US next time on. Very bad Batman man plan the whole reason you the anybody can have very good man say bad quizzes.

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Ep. #506: Christina Hoff Sommers, Former Congressman Joe Walsh

Real Time with Bill Maher

57:21 min | 11 months ago

Ep. #506: Christina Hoff Sommers, Former Congressman Joe Walsh

"Welcome to an h._b._o. Podcast from the h._b._o. Layton series real time with bill maher in sure. Thank you thank you. I need tonight. I really do because this week. I get i get i'm going to tell dog and cat cat jokes. I just i i mean i have heard the phrase. People say that this guy would lie about the weather i i. I didn't think i'd ever see it literally not from the president. I'm so glad football is back because finally eighty some brain damage. We can actually enjoy your season. Football season started last night. The bears against the packers mike pence said he is not going to watch that game. He said this dry. That's right. Well those of you in the mid west. The punchline is bears packers. That's two gay that these people know about this grab anyway. Mike mike pence spent all week in europe. This is just the side scandal to the weather scandal. The trump was supposed to go to europe to commemorate the eightieth anniversary of the start of world war two in poland. He decided he couldn't go because we needed his giant brain and to monitor the storm that was about to hit alabama so pence went ireland pence stayed two hundred miles elsewhere his meeting was because he had to stay in a trump hotel trump hotels very different from regular hotels tells when when you call down to room service for ice a team of immigration police show up on out anyway anyway trump did not go on the trip. He said he couldn't be at a monitor the storm and he went golfing and the storm dorian and it was looked like it was about to hit florida. It was barreling right toward florida and it just stopped over the poor people in the bahamas. It was like fifty miles wears heading right towards florida and it just looked at florida and went no. We're not fucking with florida. I'm sorry around. We've we've seen hurricanes turn. This is the first one that pretended it was on its phone. America got lucky. We missed the worst of it. <hes> the carolinas got a lot of rain half a million people in the carolinas. Here's our totally without power but enough about disenfranchising voters did you you see this story for the second time in a month. Trump has ordered the presidential medal of freedom to a white n._b._a. Player a couple of weeks ago for bob. Cousy was a great player and yesterday to jerry in west also a great player but least racist person in the world. Is that the right monica for someone who you cannot find a black basketball player racist anyway in any way back to the storm the part that i'm trying to avoid so fucking depressing is that trump because he's an excitable housebound westbound senior citizen when it was starting starting up saw on the tv he gets all his information that it was about to help it alabama so he told everyone in alabama to run for their lives and then of course it wasn't going anywhere near alabama but because he can never be wrong dr freehand with a sharpie the win a fight about a brain for that he had five days ago and that's when he went under the tent for the concussion the protocol he has is no moral compass and no compass. We laugh wittily italy. Does it with the election map series. If this guy was president of a different country we would bomb it. That's my kind of audience right there. Eh i tell myself okay but i mean and it just the whole thing really with this. Just shows how the two parties are living in two completely different realities while this defi- definitely global warming inspired souped up storm was wiping out yet another caribbean island democrats who are running for president had a town hall about climate the i said democrats is going to be bad news and the bad news it was during the town hall are front runners eyeball exploded didn't let me say this joe biden. You know what i'm talking about. He added some sort of rupture his eyeball. Oh for folks this. This thing is this thing is falling apart. We haven't even driven it off the lot in making this up. I saw the picture joe biden's. I ruptured. He had a bloody eyeball and elizabeth is warranted turning from white to red. That's my trick. Shall we john delaney and all little later. I'll be speaking with presidential candidate joe walsh but first up. She's an author his campaign manager philosopher and resident. I am scholar at the american enterprise into who co host the fem splendors podcast christina hobbs summers. Oh it's been so long we go way back way to used to be a lot on politically incorrect correct right. I remember you run. Your first book came out which was called who stole feminism and it's so funny i was thinking because my show was called politically incorrect the thought i was going to defeat political correctness only has gotten worse. I failed miserably at that and as far as who stole feminism whoever stole that it kinda got worse worse. I thought it was going to be easy to get it back. Yeah it's proved impossible and feminism is supposed to be about equality between the sexes mutuality friendship civility yet. It's captive to a small group of very intense eccentrics. Who think men are the enemy and that the look the goal of feminism was was to overcome male chauvinism. I became a feminist in the seventies because i didn't like male chauvinism. I still don't but the answer is not female chauvinism right now. The movement is captive to female chauvinist who who wanted to emphasize how bad men are toxic masculinity and somehow people like you. Maybe you don't agree with everything you say. But how did you you get to be the the right winger. I mean you're a democrat right. I am you're jewish democrat from brandeis. Yes okay. You've been published in the new england journal of medicine. You're not a crazy person. I i read about what happened to you. At oberlin college many colleges. I'm a frequent college lecturer and when i have been lecturing for years and usually i'd go to debate in spar with some women's studies professors because i occupy a different position position you sort of feminist theory but now these days i go and we don't it's not the west. It's the students who come the activists to we demonstrate. They set up safe rooms. I spoke at rooms from you from me and i have to have bodyguards at oberlin. I had a detail of police it didn't. They also have a therapy dog. Yes here's the thing from you because you know a young woman will they had these safe room setup and thirty women and a therapy dog led to the safe space. I triggered a dog and and i see i mean you mentioned things that i thought feminism was when it started out one of the things i thought it was about was strength. Exactly you know wonder woman strong. They love wonder woman when the hear me roar right right but what happened is that i'm asking you okay the fragility just women. Let's be honest. It's couch feminism awesome. Were fainting couch. Remember the nineteenth century where women would like apps on an elegant shares in the presence of male vulgarity well. What i i mean. We can't handle that. We want to be in the military. You know we want to be running well. I'm sorry you can handle it male impropriety now. I'm not saying that we shouldn't have strong rules against sexual harassment course. I fought for that but that doesn't mean policing men for little minor. You know we're we'll let can i read the this is bernie. Sanders had to start his campaign for president this time fending off these accusations that someone in his campaign a and committed horrible crimes not horrible crimes but sexual crimes are it was part of it was lumped in with the lead to hurt <hes>. It was not that bad ed. Someone's he said. Can i touch your hair and she said yes and then he did it for longer than she wanted and pay. Maybe touching her all day. It was wrong things happen. The things happen that iran listen to another bernie sanders campaigns said she had to share a room one night with male staffers. This happens on a campaign. They're on a shoestring budget. This is what she said. I was shaking with fear literally. I remember thinking to myself. What am i gonna do. Go sleep. These are not these are not escaped cons. Look these are bernie sanders campaign. The i know in this is not what feminism supposed to be cut right there. There are these professors and they pass along. These messages ages that we're all traumatized. Were all fragile. Were diminished under this patriarchal oppressive system. This is madness american women arguably. They are among the most self determining in history. I was i was a philosophy ca very moment where we we have support for just profound equality with men and to take on running of the world with men at that very moment we start giving especially undergraduate women the more elite colleges. We start giving them the message that they're victims. They're fragile. They're they need not equality with men protection from these toxic hawks masculine joe biden. Here's joe biden lucy flurries. I was taking deep breaths preparing myself to make my case to the crowd crowed. Ifo two hands on my shoulders froze froze from that. Why is the vice president united states touching me. He's human. Sometimes humans woman's touch other people. I get touched. Sometimes i don't want be thank you touch irs. I was is mortified morty. This rises i. I didn't wash my hair today and the vice president is smelling it now. We've hit a nerve with the crowd. He proceeded to plant a big slow kiss on the back of my head. My brain couldn't process what was happening aw cleaning process. It's an old man kissing the back of your head. This is the madness and on the campus they use the language of catastrophe to characterize like day to day life on the campus one young woman. I was at university of pennsylvania and she she said oh. I was many raped. A guy walked by and said nice legs wchs and micro aggression many rape cooperation microaggressions. This is the thing so if a if a man i ah so you have to define microaggressions in these are like minor insults somehow remind you of your diminished place in the patriot system so apparently using the the phrase you guys with can't handle that and lobster monster so trivializes genuine genuine movement. I mean look we oh we oh women a lot because we're young species. We're basically still savages. The gis and women have borne the brunt of that yes. We don't want to applaud the plot posing that yes. I know what you but it just goes to crazy places now i i know you've said you think that mail a <hes> privilege is a conspiracy theory. No i think that may men have privileges but so two women right and i think if you look at contemporary contemporary america what you see is a complicated mix of advantages and burdens for each sex for example women are far more privileged in the classroom. Young women and girls are far more religious than boys. Boys are barely tolerated these days in many classrooms they just not they. A lot of schools of education have our captive to these paranoid theories about toxic masculinity and they think that the slightest show of of male bravado so a little boy can be thrown out of suspended because he bit pop tart into the shape of a gun and and he was thrown out of school. I know talented kid. I knew people can do the thing with the cherry stem but what what also men die younger diane workplace accident ninety. Two percent of people are dying workplace accidents. Men are murder victim victim. Seventy eight percent suicide seventy eight percent eighty five percent go into combat for the same crime <hes> sixty three percent longer sentences. If you're a man so yeah i get your point that there's there's bad things to being. Amanda roots for both sexes but what about the pay gap now. This is probably where you're most controversial controversial. It's not be any responsible economist who looks at the gap. What you see is that <hes> on average women do if you look at all the men and all the women in the country working fulltime it turns out. There's about a twenty two twenty. Three percent gap. Now is that because as of discrimination well people have tried to find the discrimination but at first you have to do the proper controls and ask. What did they study in school. What is there what are they. And how many hours a week do they work. How long do they commute. How dangerous is the job and when you factor in these various things the wage gap up begins to narrow to the point of vanishing some of it is is because women they say don't negotiate as well as men for their own behalf you you just harvard. Economists like claudia goldin have looked into that and if that doesn't explain the gap most of the gap is explained by its very high end where men are willing to to work just punishing hours or weekends and long in the law firms in finance and that has an women do that too of course. They don't do it as much sure maybe they don't do it as much now you could say. It's unfair because women are maybe taking care of children or women. Don't have the liberty to do that now. That's true and that's an interesting discussion but notice. That's not because employers are cheating them. It's because men and women do behave slightly different differently in private life even if it is even if it is and i think it is what the case that women are not as adept at negotiating for themselves. It isn't coming upon them to learn how to do it. Thank you but college majors so if you want to make a lot of money you should major that we know this the highest most narrative college majors petroleum engineering you will make more money if you are now the majority of the majors in petroleum engineering our males very few females and women are measured by dick than being that to me also metallurgy naval architecture very few women but you make money <hes> <hes> women are over here in early childhood education fields they find rewarding and social work and society understanding society eddie has shitty priorities but then you can try to change it but but don't say we're being cheated out of our salary. It's a complicated complicated issue so what i try to do on the fence planers is to show people that women are going to be helped by truth an accurate analyses of problems and we just don't have that right now. We have a lot of spin and hyperbole. Get with my therapy dog but thank you so much for coming by and enjoy great the senior all right us radar power john. It is the editor at large of reason magazine coast of the fifth column podcasts matt welsh back with us matt well. It looks like my father in nineteen sixty because he does choose the president and c._e._o. Of voter latino and am an m._s._n._b._c. m._s._n._b._c. contributor maria theresa kumar back is the entrepreneur and former three term congressman from maryland and now seeking the democratic presidential nomination john delaney no overtime tonight i. I have a show in vegas every time but i didn't <hes> okay so i thought this is a good week to sort of commiserate with the mess vast majority of america to say where do i go because this storm has shown us a coupla things marianne williamson on the democratic side said it's it's not wacky to believe that if millions of us use our mind power prayer we can turn the hurricane away from land. We we can't do that. Merit and then trump says nuke. This is the american the american who says really this is my fucking choice to this country mind power to turn that redefine for joyce choice for that's what america we're we're right in the middle of the movie the fifth element you remember that. I don't think that's basically in the dark force okay so i guess my question is does anyone have drugs california cornea and nine eight other states have legally so we can at least commiserate support all right so. I thought this would be a good week to talk about. I brought this book before if obama the list just being i can with a foreign star the unsecured i've known you know <hes> canceling world war one appearance because of rain russian officials in the oval office. I mean we too but this week is a perfect week because one from the washington post president trump's oh eager to complete hundreds of miles of his border wall. He directed aides. It's too fast track. Billions of dollars worth of construction contracts aggressively sees private lands and disregard environmental rules and he said if subordinates it's who are worried about getting caught at this. We're found out he would pardon them. Should they have to break laws to get the barriers build quickly so this is his big thing the wall aw you know the president obama's big thing the affordable care act what if obama had said this is my big thing. Let's break some laws to get it done and if you do and get caught. I'll pardon you mitch mcconnell. Anything republicans head would explode. I mean what we'd be hearing and listening to the double standard is just unbelievable. The freedom caucus was launched right in two thousand fifteen and look at its founding documents. They were talking about restraining the executive branch from investigating itself and also to reduce the size of government and to cut debt so how did that work out for years later. They're they're doing literally the opposite work right now and this is also this stuff about the private property in an eminent domain and the wall and lie this is exactly how trump campaigned and in two thousand fifteen go back to august twenty fifteen and see how he was talking about going to get rid of four million legal u._s. Citizens who are the children of wunderlist parac's cars right right and also saying that he loved the kilo decision like eminent domain is great so republicans knew this this is how he campaigned anti one and this is how is governing so it's a question for them. Is this how the party is going to be known about the things that you pretended to care about for forty years and that's going to be difficult for them. Cowards yeah i mean i think the only time they actually find a spine is the moment that they decide that they're not going to seek reelection and when you look at the george will's when the bill kristol's they're basically sounding the alarm saying we we have to correct the course and it's the republicans have to stand up for but they have to do it while they're while they're actually elected but see. This is the difference between us and what went on with great britain this week. If you haven't been following following brexit it's pretty complicated but i think most people know that three years ago britain voted to get out of the european union there closely allied trade and many other reasons trying to unite night europe and a lot of britain's for whatever reason similar to some trump voters here in america said. We don't recognize our country anymore. We wanna get out okay so the twenty one twenty one people in the conservative party. This is the conservatives who are wanting brexit boris johnson who is their version of trump trump took over and i won't go through all the stuff but the difference is they voted to give up their careers twenty-one people including winston churchill's grandson and some other members of parliament had been there for decades voted to give up their careers. I guess my question question is what is it so great about a frigging career as a republican congressman that you don't do this. They were patriots in nineteen fifty eight. John f. kennedy said we should not seek the democratic answer. We should not seek the republican answer. We should seek the right answer and what he was saying. Is we have to put country ahead of party. That's what those conservatives did in the united kingdom and that is absolutely not what republicans republicans are doing in the congress the united states right now. There's just no question there's going to and the words they won't stand up to them. They're afraid of losing their primaries because in many any of these elections some of these people have no general election threat. It's all about the primary and they're afraid to lose the support of the president and it spineless and it's terrible and it's un-american because what we do see is that when americans vote we change congress and you look at what when they try to make a contrast between the republicans and democrats and there's no difference in in the mitchell elections we saw the largest turnout in american history and the most diverse and we brought in the most diverse congress and in that we pass background checks in that we pass equality we pass we ensure that be modernizer elections we talked about passing dhaka and the list goes on and mitch mcconnell this all this legislation sits at the foot of mitch mcconnell and he doesn't want to do anything so when you say there's no contracts contrast between what happens when you participate and enforce our gym work that's not right and it's interesting because to put a little more detail on the brexit thing the reason why hide these people were able to stand up got it in their gut to stand up is because if you leave without a deal see boris johnson wanted without any deal the troop premise prime minister's. I couldn't get a deal with the european union. It will be chaos in that trump and putin destabilize. It'll stabilize the european union so that's what they want. So boris johnson wants to call an election and he might win it and the reason why he might win it to bring it back to this country is somebody named jeremy corbyn uh-huh who is the leader of the left in britain and he is like bernie sanders times ten and this is what i'm asking about this country. We have a similar sort live situation. I like elizabeth warren a lot. She's got the big momentum now. She kind of ate your lunch at the debate way way way doc by debate standards where you you get. It's the moment and it's the bullshit she did. I'm not saying she was right because because well here's what you said. You said i think democrats win when we were on real solutions not impossible promises when we run on things that are workable not fairytale economics economics see and then she gave her the opening. I'm sure it was already written. I don't understand she said why enemy goes to all the trouble running for president just to talk about what we really can't can't do and shouldn't fight for wait a second see. I'm with you here. She's conflating centrism with doing nothing. Obama was a centrist. Okay your hero obama so i like elizabeth warren a lot too but i understand why she's got big rally. She's promising a lot of free shit. I actually think i think part of what she's doing. Basically reminding the people that we promised free under the f._d._r. Democrats with the new deal and we action reconstructed and recognize that there were income inequalities that we had to address but that's that's why we have a primary opportunity for the american people to their their kenneth starr identify who do they actually and it's good that we have so many ideas that we actually start thinking about it but we should also remember how we won the midterms right 'cause we flipped forty aceites from republican to democratic and took back the house represents an extraordinary and we did that we did that with candidates who won independence right and that's i mean if you think about you you mentioned obama was saying but it's the truth. Obama was a centrist clinton was a centrist dukakis was not mondale was not the government was not. There's a pattern there. We will win the twenty twenty election when we capture the center because the president's going to turn out voters and democrats are going to turn out just like we did in two thousand eighteen. It was a heroic effort to wrest control of our government back to the people. We're going to have good turn out in two thousand twenty. The key is who will oh capture the center and if you impossible promises. I just don't think we're going to do that. When you shoot. I was actually i would argue that you have to do two things. The democrats brought back the house because they focussed on suburban white women who cared about health care but they also deeply cared about family separation. It just didn't sit well with them. But then you also have roughly fifteen million folks that are unregistered. I just started that are among latino and you have to make sure that you are actually increasing that by choice and we keep talking about the mid west. Midwest is important but the american map has been flipped flipped. You have industry now coming to the south you have young people and young professionals coming into the south and you have opportunity with thirty eight electoral just in texas face on the latino vote and the youth vote in the more we talk about. How do we expand that electoral vase. I would say texas right now is we're. California was under proposition one eighty-seven you had before then california was absolutely swing state lose more likely to carry texas joe biden elizabeth warren. We are talking about texas. Big hats walk working with the eminent domain. I mean i think it's almost like i love dick domain. It's almost like the presence handing texas s. t. Whatever democrat comes with this extent false choice though right because the work. You're doing his roic. We should do both. We should overcome all this voter suppression. We should make sure we're running on big ideas that excite people we should stand for decency and a set of values but we also have to put forth real solutions to the issues that are affecting the american people at their kitchen table and that's why things like making private insurance illegal which i view the politics of subtraction in other words taking something away from someone as opposed to the politics of edition which is to say there's people who are uninsured this country. Let's make sure they have health coverage. I think that's how you win texas texas. I want to show you something we have talked a couple of times on this show about the fact that profanity in politics six has taken a big upturn. I mean a lot of it is trump but it wasn't that long ago. When you know <hes> bush the second was said asshole or something it was a scandal you know dick. Cheney got caught off camera saying fuck you and book your mother or whatever you started the trend i know through this power of sketch comedy. We have made fun of this. Just put now beto. This guy's a potty mouth. This is not a joke. He is selling this t shirt. This is fucked up. This is a candidate for for president anyway now. All the candidates want to get it on this. Would you like it's what the other t shirts joe biden has. You're going to eat this shit and you're gonna like it. <hes> amy klobuchar vote clubbers jars. You'll throw a fucking binder. You're bernie sanders tearing income inequality of new asshole kandahar harvest california's senator not some jag off congressman from who gives a shit marianne williamson williamson because only love can defeat this cox elizabeth warren one percent indian ninety nine percent white one hundred percent tired of this additive edited dirty now and wayne mess him. Oh yeah. I never fucking hurt you. Either the kisco capelle annoy in the u._s. Congress challenging donald trump with the twenty twenty rubbing reservation joe walsh. Are you get you. You are challenging donald trump for the republican nomination but they don't go your job but that news view today south carolina nevada arizona and kansas say they will not even allow a primary challenger that why are they so insecure. I thought donald donald trump was ninety percent popular in their public and party. They can't even ever primary challenger. Who's gonna lose. You're gonna lose not necessarily. You're not going to take the nomination away from trump. Oh i've got a shot. Oh absolutely bill would think about that on television shot and this guy who doesn't have the in the next general election days what i love about america. We are not north korea. We're not russia think about what trump did today. Trump wants to eliminate elections. He told south carolina relying arizona nevada and kansas no primary elections. You talk about undemocratic bullshit in this coming from party moghinyeh the footsie. You are doing something different. There's a few people who are challenging donald trump <hes> bill weld. I think is doing it right. I mean who else who are the people. That's it right now okay but a few other things thinking about it. You're the only one from the right yes but i want to ask you this. You know you don't like trump for a lot one of the reasons that we've been talking about here in a long time. He lies like that. He's a traitor stuff like that little things but issue wise. What about the <hes> judges you like that right. He's done some good things. Let's just go down the list and see how much in line so gently abortion judges use your for that good conservative judge okay. Just go with me. Joe pipelines you for that plan. I've senior record the above all okay okay drilling in alaska think about it think about it. Show your enough trout here spill. Here's joe you were a leader of the the anti obama nutcase caucus yes okay. I helped lead to trump look at home. I helped put good for you. It's true run. I helped good and yourself like that on national t._v. Yes hey bill to lead the trump a week. Feckless republican party that was out of touch with where their voters were in people like me who led our rhetoric get ahead of us but i'm back there pulling my hair out because this thing has nothing to do with issues. Donald trump trump is a horrible human being period against. I'm against tariffs. He's not about issues but trump's unfed again if you beat him and be the president a lot a lot of things on this they would not like and i just obamacare air. You're for that not really no no no rolling back dodd-frank for that. The tax cuts for the rich. You like that don't clash republican right exactly. I'm trying to make rolling back the pirates of the epa. I mean i could go down the list so i'm just saying here's the point. Here is the point matt senate and matt said it. I am a republican. I make conservative republican. I do not and will not lie every retire open my mouth and also i will not only put my interest. I mean this is like bizarro world because we for the first time in our history bill we have a president who lies virtually every time he talks and we have a president in capable of thinking about anybody but himself and just started the hurricane this week i mean he's incapable of thinking about this country. Okay just say area. You would not know it would not lie but you would also would get rid of the endangered species act like he did. I'm really okay. You could just i'm. I'm just saying but joe. I remember you when you were in congress. You reported that tea party group and just now. I know you've had to answer a lot of questions about race okay. That's okay you know you did committed also sent out four thousand tweets. Some of them were racist but you're not a racist. Yes a fine distinction but let's move on important to stuck okay okay but general by scrawl prejudice and sometimes we all step in it. I was stepped in it. Looks me in the eye looking okay no not like that having used all the power of the hurricane. Just look in the eye and tell me that the seething frothing hatred that i remembered that you had for barack obama had had nothing to do with the fact that he was black. I know gosh no no again nothing to do with it. No no no look his policies. He's now again. Oftentimes myself in people like me. I mean we went to washington the tea party to do something about the debt but yeah that what you do it. It's not a political party failed at that like this political correctness. This guy work. That's the thing we're don. Quixote republic okay trust so do you sometimes wish you were the other joe. Walsh wishes written funk forty nine and midnight man and pretty maids. He's tough he's. He's you still living there untorn vegas. They're doing awesome. He's the guy wrote lifespans. You're the guy who's to defend himself against okay so my last question as you say. Donald you voted for trump. Yes you even said i'm voting for rim on election day if he loses. I'm grabbing my musket. I'm gonna let you go on that one because musket muskets anymore so i'm going to say you are being metaphor. Yes still on a good thing to put out the idea that if the election doesn't go our way we reach for guns. Would you allow the hess but rate not a good hi dear musket though i know it's still the idea of i don't like the election. Get a gun nuts. I know but you're talking about. I said i'm going to give give you that work at that one but you said you know now. You've turned so trump basically kanju. He's a con man. He is economy so you were formed. Tell us why we should vote for you if it took you until twenty nineteen to know that donald trump was filler well. It didn't declare quest to good let fair question good question okay. That's a real it didn't take till twenty nineteen for the record eighteen last year yeah the at helsinki that was when he stood in the world and said ah with putin and now it's a good place but bill we okay. We got people right. Who've found the religion yesterday. Do we want you joe. We we want. We do okay so but okay so trump didn't get that era of your ways. What about global warming you. We're always denier. What do you think because we don't wanna sit here three years from now and go fuck. I messed up on that one. It's not a denier in the republican. Party needs to wake up. I'm telling you this right now. Wake up knowledge yes. It's an issue and it's a problem. We're part of this debate. They've got to acknowledge that. It's a real issue. Okay stop spot all right. Okay so speaking of that <hes> this what happened with the bahamas this week. It looks like you know puerto rico. There's an island barbuda. That's completely gone now. It looks like the caribbean because of course global warming and the souped up hurricanes is being wiped out an island at a time. What are we doing about this or are we going to rebuild who would rebuild who wants to rebuild in a place now. We're not even in the paris accord. We're not even trying to solve this problem seriously mankind what is going to happen to this region of the country. I've been there many times. I went to the nineteen eighty-nine h._b._o. Vacation in nevis saint kitts saint johns saint thomas mystique. These are beautiful places with beautiful people and feel like one by one and what are we gonna do. It's gonna get worse unless we do something. I mean in all this stuff is interrelated. I mean we we watched what happened in the amazon a few weeks ago. There was a reason why this was happening and that was that farmers in the amazon were clearing trees trees to plant soybeans. Why are they planning soybeans. Well because we're in a trade war with china china's the biggest buyer of soybeans in the world and county. We used to be the biggest seller of soybeans. We're not doing that anymore. So now. There's an incentive for farmers around the world to clear trees and plant soybeans. The point is we have to lead in this country but we also have to lead around the world because this is a global issue and the fact. We're not in paris yeah. I think one of the biggest challenges to is that a couple months ago. I had the opportunity to go to greenland. You saw that one of the biggest pieces of greenland is that it has so many minerals only only a very few individuals will make a lot of money they wanted to ask and until we recognize that climate hoax is aligned with corporate greed then no one's. It's going to happen to want to do something about it. I think it's also important being set of big c._n._n. Climate change all the democratic candidates here and i find it frustrating because you have people are very energized about about the warming the planet and that's bat okay so you have to change the way that we process and make electricity in a cleaner way so the united states for the last decade has reduced carbon emissions by fifteen percent. That's good trend should be better but that's a pretty good trend. What is the way how is what is the single biggest contributor to that. We swapped out coal factories for natural gas factories using fracking and what elizabeth elizabeth warren who's talking about this issue. A lot say today brag about day one. She's going to ban fracking everywhere. There's trade offs involved in all of these energy sources and people ruling out nuclear cracking is better than coal but there's a better thing it's called the sun is a nuclear reactor in the and that's great and i look forward to the director of the sun and hopefully we can do we solved your hobby desert but we're we're we can solve this with innovation too and and if we want to solve this around the world we have to put our whole innovation economy against this because we can get off fossil fuels but we also have to deliver solutions to the rest of the world in my opinion gene which is why we should be putting a price on carbon right to discourage basak also massively investing in basic research elizabeth warren all it talked talked about a kind of a conservation corps. You know people which i think is a great idea yet. People who don't have jobs you know because that's what they did during the depression year for mandatory eight national service so you're not you're the only candidate who's for mandatory like you would have to spend a year right my aspirin. I'm with you by the my aspiration is for it to be mandatory dettori. It would start voluntary. We can't launch a mandatory national service blind well. Just the scale of it is so significant so i would start with a voluntary program. They're not doing it anyway. Have you get them off their phones. You know what let's let. The monarch's tend to do something they don't do anything. Everything is so deactivate them. I want to listen. I want to get it there but you start with a voluntary program kids graduate from high school. They served their country. They could join the military they can do. Community service they can become part of the climate climate corp or they become part of an infrastructure program. They would get two years in state tuition for service. I think this is the big transformative this form of idea we need because we need to change how we think about our relationship to each other and our responsibility to this nation and we needed to be reminded that we jeff all together. I think that young people are incredibly active and they are hungry to serve this nation and while they don't i believe in institution they believe in community service. The reason that you have gig economies the reason that you have this idea that my issues not be working. I may not believe that the news but i know that i can help somebody the out that is actually part of their d._n._a. That i have to say that wasn't part of their parents and wasn't part of generation x. There's an incredible opportunity for nation building and i would double down on it. I think it's people would actually want that is it. I loved the idea and it should be encouraged. Have a hard time with the mandatory. Though the mandatory required service i think could be very very problem. Who's the other end of the mandatory someone with a gun or someone who could find you. That's not that's not patriotism. That's not creating social cohesion by saying you must've austin people for the army shouldn't and you know just a war. You shouldn't conscripts people. We shouldn't contribute. We have a professional army. There's a resource war too. We shouldn't have had a drought in world war if we have but if we he's still moving afghanistan if it was mandatory service early i got us. It's time for new rules. Heroes has to help america decide. Who's weather map is more embarrassing. This guy's or this guy's was real. The new role this hippie smoking a joint at the fiftieth anniversary of woodstock has to admit that maybe maybe he took the message of woodstock a little too seriously. I mean everybody loves peace love and marijuana but you know what else is good a home a 4._0._1._k. And a shower someone has to tell me why mike pence can't smile without looking stone. Joan tries to look crafty. It comes off like he's misjudge some edibles risk-taking in yeah. Maybe i should have just taken half. Oh god what if. I'm like this forever that man he's orange. The news needs to stop asking me. All the questions did trump just tweet out classified vite information. You tell me the news you are. Wi fi six will soon be here. What is it. I don't know i never heard of it to you. Just mentioned engine. I turned on the local news the other night the guy said weather tonight. Is it going to rain back to you. Bob role now that melania has gazed into justin. Trudeau's is like this not long after a bunka. Did it like this. Trump has to tell us which one made you more jealous the residents i'm getting lease. We all know about the time trudell made you really jealous and finally new rule at next thursday's debate bate. One of the candidates has to say the problem with our health. Care system is americans eat shit and too much of it. The all the candidates will talk about their health plans but no one will mention the key factor. This citizens don't lift a finger to help and then the candidates will go back on the trail the next day and try to prove just as big a gluttonous slob as the rest of us sometimes wild discussing preexisting conditions in but why do people have so many preexisting conditions being fat isn't a birth defect. Nobody comes out of the womb needing to buy two seats on the airplane here. It is in a nutshell from the new york times. Poor diet is the leading cause of mortality -ality in the united states. Everyone knows obesity is linked to terrible. Herbal conditions like diabetes heart disease and virginity not to mention cancer but that's just the beginning of it. There is literally nothing. Being overweight does not make worse eyesight memory pain fatigue depression. You don't poop right it. Weakens your immune system. We scream it congress to find a way to pay for medical bills but it wouldn't be nearly the issue is if people just didn't eat like assholes the who are killing not only themselves but the planet the amazon fires are because was farmers there are burning down the rain forest to make room for future hamburgers and so i did because here in america we look at fried chicken and think that's a good start now. Put it on a bun and add bacon and cheese and something don't even thought to put on it. Make mouth com. What's elizabeth warren's plan for that. Europe doesn't look like this because europe's not always eating for two we weren't it always like this watching the footage of the fiftieth anniversary of apollo eleven. I was struck by how not fat everyone in the crowd. Was we look like a completely different race of people now. Look at us. We wear shirts that our ancestors could've used as a sale the one hundred years ago. This guy was fat enough to be the fat man in the circus now now. He's a guy people know. I'm speaking the truth after all isn't that why you're tinder picture is three years old. Ken fat be beautiful. That's in the eye of the beholder but healthy no that science. I know this is a this is a controversial thing into say now. In today's america but being fat is a bad thing we shouldn't taunt people about it and overeating should be singled out as the only vice. It's not we all have something but there's no smoking acceptance or drunk acceptance. When i drank too much yes sometimes someone would say to me. You know that's that's not great for your health bill. Maybe you should slow down a little. You went kinda hard last night and i would say yeah. I know i'm going to start next week and then of course i wouldn't but i didn't say how dare you drink jamie. Being blotto is beautiful didn't say that i was focusing on the road food. When did it become taboo. In this country to talk about getting healthy weight watchers had to literally take the words weight and and watchers. I'm not getting out of their name. It's now w._w. Because merely the idea of watching your weight is now bullying. What's next banning scales. Hey liberals. You know how you hate it. When conservatives won't even let the c._d._c. Study gun violence as a public health issue. This this is that you are the n._r._a. Of mayonnaise we have gone to this weird place. Where fat is good. It's pointing out. That fat is unhealthy. That's what's bad fat chaim. No we fit chain really when you hear it all the time. Someone sees a merely trim person. You should eat something. No you should not eat some. It should be more unhealthy so you can feel better about your fat ass. In august fifty. Three americans died from mass shootings terrible right. You know how many died from obesity forty thousand and fat shaming doesn't need to end needs to make a comeback. Some amount of shamed is good. We shame people out of smoking and into into wearing seatbelts we shame them at littering and most of them at a racism. Shame is the first step in reform. It's goats people into saying. Maybe i can do better as opposed to. I'm always perfect away. I am how dare you. We need to start aiming higher as a country. This is a good place to start. We can all keep pretending that healthcare of care is an issue between you and the government but it's really between you and the waitress. It's not just about out being able to see a doctor. It's also about being able to see your dick show tonight at the orpheum the kamar john the lady joe walsh the only episodes of real time with bill maher every friday night at ten or watch him anytime h._b._o. On demand for more information log on h._b._o. Dot com.

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Let's Talk About Sex Differences with Christina Hoff Sommers and Debra Soh

Reason Podcast

54:06 min | 1 year ago

Let's Talk About Sex Differences with Christina Hoff Sommers and Debra Soh

"This is the reason podcast. And I'm your host nNcholas be today. We're gonna talk about male female, sex differences, and as important why people are often reluctant to discuss whether such things even exist to what extent they exist. And where they come from how laws and customs should deal with differences in the sexes. Joining me are Christina summers and academically trained philosopher, which I guess is different than if you just pick it up on the streets, who's a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute. She's the author of well known book such as who stole feminism and the war against boys. And I'm also sitting with Deborah. So she's an academically trained of a psychologist who has been HD from Toronto's York University. I'm gonna read the name of her dissertation because it's up on her Wikipedia page. And I think it explains everything it was called fuck functional and structural neuro. Imaging para Philip, hyper, sexuality, and men. I'm sure we'll get to that. I have so. If she writes frequently on gender and science issues for the globe and mail and playboy and she co hosts a podcast called wrong speak for the website Kuala ladies, thanks for coming. Great to be here. Thank you for having us. So this is the reason podcast, and we are taping in my apartment that's on bleaker street. There's going to be a lot of outside noise. I bring that up because oftentimes people start Jack hammering or cutting down trees that sounds like a, but but I hope the audience will bear with us. But first, let's talk about the current state of understanding and science about sex differences. And then let's talk about how society might deal with these differences in terms of policies or etiquette or customs and whatnot. You're you're you're both in town because you did a panel. Sponsored by the independent women's forum called the title was who's afraid of sex differences, Christina. Why don't you explain briefly? What the panel was about. And how did you resolve that large question? Yes. The independent women's forum convened a. Panel of experts, Deborah and myself and Lee, Jessica psychologist at Rutgers University to talk about a topic that dares not speak its name, you know, the differences between men and women and you ask you what is the scientific consensus? I would say most scientists probably think quite reasonably that that gender is a a combination of culture and biology a yet to be understood combination and yet many on campus in in gender studies in the various activists disciplines insist that it is. A social construction, and even if they grudgingly concede that biol- biology may play some role that they think it's something a one feminists, for example, Virginia Valli and compares it to, you know, something you would could be a knock you lated against. She said, even if there are biological impulses toward sate little girls playing with dolls. We we inoculate children. We challenged biology. And so they are very confident that either plays no role or it plays a role that's damaging to so human already the three of you on the panel, the to view, plus the other scholar just some you all agree. Yeah. We do. We we see it as a combination. I'm very much. I do think it's a combination. But at the same time that socialization can't override biology. Okay. And I I guess is that really the the question we're talking about this kind of stuff. Most people agree there are obvious differences. But then it's a question of at what point do you either try to override the differences or ignore them? I think some people would even argue that there aren't differences in that we're focusing on things that don't exist. But of those who had knowledge that there are I mean, I think that's more of the extreme end of things. But for those who acknowledged that there are differences that definitely it's all about socialization. This is something that should be prevented that this is harmful to women. And that biology is basically a means by which people can justify sexism and oppressing women. Will do you agree with that? No, vilocci oppresses women are not that biology oppresses women, but that oftentimes that people who want to. To structure society in a particular way will say because of biology women shouldn't be allowed to do this or women can't do this. Or the reason why there were so few women doctors until now was because they're just biologically not good at medicine type. I mean that the appeal to biology or to have Lucia, and in fact, I think it's it's understandable. Why is it a lot of women academics? And as a philosophy professor of many years am in the history of philosophy of theology. And science is just littered with disparaging ideas about women and these were harmful they were false, and they prevented women from entering fields. I mean when when we're thought to be too, emotional, and and sensitive or inferior. If you hear just terrible things even manual cons taught women were incapable of an understanding. Moral principles. And then there's always the flips. I mean, we're talking here about the kind of grand historical, misogyny that was baked into, you know, a lot of society, but they're either incapable of being moral or they are super moral and they're bounded rigid with morale it, I mean, it can go either way it can be represent nature or they represent rationality all sorts of its actions and just we had a distorted picture. And I think that what happened is for many scholars. They've just they see how damaging is has been. And they they just say, no where you know. This is this is harmful to women, and I have had when I've talked about sex differences. I've been challenged by people who say it does you stop this. Even if it's true don't say at these stereotypes or to harmful and my answer to that is this this false stereotypes are harmful. We have to be careful on the other hand, the answer to bad science, and to you know, dist. Sorted pictures of of men and women the answer to that is better science, and for that you need free and open discussion, and we have two little of that in the academy and increasingly in in in the media, I won't want to come back to in a second. But before I do that Christina could you talk a little bit about your. I don't know what the proper rules of etiquette are here. I know your age because I've looked it up online and whatnot. But you you came of age in school towards the end of the sixties and you enter the kademi in the seventies and whatnot, you are very much a equity feminism. And you believe in the, you know, the the goal of feminism are the practical political implication is that women should be treated as individuals. Right. Yes. Describe you know, why that was so central to your your feminist identity. And how is that linked to time and partly to this question of you're pushing back against decades are incident institution that did not really take women seriously. Yes. And in my field there were philosophy to this day. They're relatively few women. However, when I entered college in graduate school, I considered myself a feminist. I do today I do not like a male chauvinism, but I don't like female chauvinism either I became a feminist because I believe that women should be treated as individuals. Even if there are on average on average the differences between the sexes as groups. There are many people that defy the stereotypes of the sexes. It's very complicated. Not well under stood. So you can't generalize. And the second thing is. When I came a feminist. It was fun in. It was we got to be as wild as the boys. It was equality. Now, we have this kind of fainting couch them in his among the campus where women are sort of fair maidens damsels in distress, you know, falling onto their Hsieh's, you know, in the in the presence of male vulgarity, and this is to me reactionary. And if people, you know, when I go into bait students act like I'm reactionary because an but I don't I don't. So you're you're like auntie mame or well, I feel like this. I was a hippie, you know, sort of a flower child, and we didn't like rules. And and now it seems that feminism has become all about rules become Thawra -tarian and not fun. That's an interesting kind of shift from libertarian to authoritarian. Debra you you mentioned earlier and talk a little bit about the the academy went when did you get your paycheck? I finished a year and. Half ago. Okay. So relatively recent. What describe what is the you know for you. What was the reigning model of feminism? And did you consider yourself when you when you enter for psychology where you feminist or I mean, were you trying to do feminist psychology? Or is this a little definitely not feminist psychology per se, but back then I don't think that was even a thing. I mean, it's more recently that people are wanting to incorporate feminism into science and now there is growing discipline called feminist science, which I kind of question because I think scientists supposed to be objective. So there shouldn't be any room for any particular. Ideologies would be something like that you, you know. But I can see if not us not our fault. You know, it's always the person, you least expect but. I wanna point out that I didn't take that call. So. You know, you guys have my attention. But now, but I I could see something like some a psychology being we're going to look at. You know, we're going to look at areas of psychology that have been under served because they are about women's concerns or something like that. Yeah. I could see that. And I think even five years ago say that would have been a valuable approach. But because I think because feminism has gone off the rails. And especially with an academia the way, it's manifested. I don't see it as being I see it as being very biased now, but I did identify as a feminist. I'd say even five years ago, and it's it's only with seeing how the mainstreaming of feminism has really taken it to stand for things that it didn't use to could you what what would be an example of that. An and do not consider yourself a feminist. Now, I'm still very much in favor of equality for women, of course, as a woman and someone with a PHD in stem discipline. I mean, there's a lot of talk about how stem disciplines are sexist and discriminate against women. Check and talk about what I think about that as well. But in terms of an example, so back in the day, people would say feminists hate men, and I would say, no, that's not true. Feminist just wanted quality. We don't hate men. But now what you'll see is that some of the leaders of mainstream feminism today will openly say that they hate men, and that men are trash in that masculine and seem masculinity is toxic. And so I don't think you need to say any of those things or believe any of those things to advocate for quality for women. So that's why I've kind of distanced myself from that label. I don't think it helps women, and I I think it would actually benefit the movement if they were a little bit more open to men because some feminists will say we don't have room for men in this movement. And I don't think that's useful. Before we go on. Let's get the quick, you know, the elevator pitch of your of your dissertation functional functional and structural neuro. Imaging a para Philip, hyper, sexuality and men. What was that about? I used for different types of brain imaging. So my my PHD is in sexual neuroscience research, which is basically using euro scientific techniques to better understand human sexuality. And with my dissertation. I looked at hyper sexuality, so that is when people have excessive sexual behaviors. So some examples would be it's known colloquially as sex addiction, although sex addiction hasn't actually been shown to be a medical condition. So sexy diction so called porn addiction. Which is another thing that doesn't have any sort of legitimate research racking that up so looking at the brains of these men comparing them to so men who are hyper sexual and also para Philip so a pair of field is an unusual sexual preference. So they're very kinky. They're into all kinds of different things. This must have been. The easiest study to get up the subjects for I'm assuming like our newspaper, you'd have people at the I was very creative with my recruitment strategies. It was actually a lot of fun. I would but it was very very difficult. There are I mean in the in the brain images that there are distinct different patterns, or I so I found with para phillix pair feely as are akin to sexual orientation. So they're not the same. But it they are someone's primary sexual preference, and they aren't something that can be changed. So what I found is that say when you compare gay and straight men the same network of brain regions activate when they're looking at gain straight pornography based on their preference and that same network would activate when kinky people are looking at the type of pornography that they prefer. So to bring this back to kind of the conversation that we were in, you know, your Deborah. I think the first thing of yours, I read was you were one of four people for researchers who responded in Quebec the online magazine when James day is Google memo came out. Yes. And in that document, he was a programmer, and he said, you know, that among other things that one of the reasons why women were. Not represented in certain parts of Google was probably because women aren't necessarily that good at programming. Well, I don't know that he said they weren't as good. He said more about the interest. So on average women are not as interested in those in stem fields as men rut, and and you in your response, you said, you know, that basically corresponds with, you know, the the current research biological influence prenatal testosterone, not not socialization in the way. I was. I was I know I've been in that kind of case 'cause we're going back and forth between there. So I think certainly we all agree. And I think most people getting others outliers would agree that, you know, there are clear differences between men and women are more evolved for different kind of functions and different purposes that are going to end up having some impact on how we go that our daily lives in a post industrial world. But how do you know that it's just for the same reason that the weren't a lot of female doctors until site nineteen seventy you know, and that was often interpreted as a sign that will women just couldn't do medicine. You couldn't be family. Doctor had how do you? How do you factor out even with stem stuff, and you can say, okay? Well, there's you don't we can now say there's testosterone there's this. There's that. But there are previous explanations for everything as well. Like, how how do you know, what is culture, and what is our Christina here? Have ideas about that? In many have suggested this it, you're absolutely right. Women were kept out just about every field and win the barriers came down. What you should do is just what did women do. And there's a a this idea that women are women need mentors. Women need workshops to you know, get into physics or something. We'll they didn't need it to take over psychology to take over veterinary medicine to take over psychology. There are entire graduate programs that are becoming in approaching seventy percent female when the numbers used to be very small. It's a veterinary medicine so in the life sciences in biology women are now more biology female biology majors than male. So there were certain fields that just women were attracted to be couldn't stop us. There were some exceptions. Computer? Basically, the math based disciplines physics and engineering computer science, you find fewer women. So then you ask well, why would people say, oh, well is it because there is a hostile environment. And there's you know, they're they're no mentors. Well, that was true of law. That was true of biology. It didn't. So you think have to think there might be a different explanation. And so you look and see that men on average have better spatial reasoning skills. This is cross cultural. It's one of the best established just. Facts in people who study sex differences and women have better verbal skills and slightly better emotional intelligence. So they would have a comparative advantage in many fields in just beat more interested. So that there are women with fen tastic spatial reasoning skills. It's just that the pool of women that might want to be computer scientists or physicists mathematicians smaller than the pool of men. So shouldn't automatically assume that every time there's a gender disparity. It has to be oppression. It could be just a an innocent manifestation of preference of of evil a difference. Right. Yeah. Debra you opted out of a kind of academic background as Cristina, and you know, I want to hear you talk a little bit about that in a second Christina. But after having been in the academy for while. But what what what kind of motivated you to be like, you know, at academics. The academic track is not for me in the last two years. I noticed that the climate change quite a bit in the last two years of my PHD as I was nearing the end. And I was deciding him I gonna continue on inaccuracy Mia start looking for a post, doc or assistant professorship, and what I noticed in mainstream media is there is so much coverage about the issue of transgender children. And how early transitioning was the best way forward for these children. And so the younger the better, basically. And so you'd see all of this coverage in mainstream newspapers say outlets more generally saying if you have a child that says they're born in the wrong body, the parents should affirm them and get them on puberty. Blockers and give them a new name and change their haircut in their clothing, or whatever and showing how much happier apparently, these children were, but from a scientific perspective the best way forward is to actually wait until the child hits puberty and see how they feel and the vast majority of these children desist. So they don't feel gender dysphoric at once. They reach puberty. They they're more likely to grow up to be happy gay adults. And so no one was talking about this within the field of sexology. There's very, you know, it's a consensus that we know of this is the truth, but because of the history that sexology has had with trans activists going after sex researchers if they don't like what someone says or what their research says people are understandably intimidated, and so I felt I had to say something it just didn't sit right with me. I was I would look in the comments section of a lot of these articles. And parents would say my son or daughter says that they are born in the wrong body. They want to transition the seems very experimental to me. I don't feel comfortable. As a parent. I don't know what to think and all the comments subsequently would say, you're a bad parent. Your child is gonna kill themselves. You know, you're big on your whole point is that I says parent at us somebody who either did or probably gonna go through puberty sometime soon that I mean like, you know, when you're talking about kids before puberty like their feelings matter at obviously as a parent, you know, in all of that. But like, you really don't base life decisions on a prepubescent child kids sale kinds of things and the thing is especially for very young children when they say they are the opposite sex what they really mean as they wanna do things at the opposite sex does. And that's the only language that they have. So I wrote this op Ed for Pacific standard just to speak to the research, and I spoke to my colleagues and my mentors about it. And they've always been very supportive of me being outspoken, and they said, you know, I asked should I wait until I've tenure to do this. And they said, even if you have tenure nowadays, it's not going to make a difference. Still get fired. So I said, well, I can't continue in a in a climate like that. I don't see the point for myself. But also, I mean in a in a wet just, you know, the particular point you're making about trans identity. It's actually kind of good one because there's a Fassbinder movie forgetting the name of it of of of man who transitions to a woman, and then realizes study sheets made a mistake. I've been like you you don't want to rush a decision like that. And if it's true that actually a, you know, a lot of this is confused with sexual orientation, it, you know, it seems like it's a happy resolution that to just let things develop you would think. So. And I I always want to emphasize I do believe that adults should be allowed to transition if they feel that's the right way forward for them. But in this case, I mean, there's an overwhelming consensus with the scientific research showing that these all of the studies ever done on young children longitudinal showed that the majority desist. So it doesn't make sense for them to transition because they likely are going to regret it. I think part of what it is. Is that we look at what happened with the gay community. I've I've always been very strong supportive of the gay community. I grew up in the gay community and all my friends were gay men and people look at conversion therapy and how wrong they were. I mean, some people still do conversion therapy nowadays. And I think that's horrific. There's no no evidence to suggest that sexual orientation can be changed. But I think that's part of where the resistance is coming from now where people some activists have conflicted any sort of therapeutic interventions with gender dysphoric kids that tries to not not encourage them to be comfortable in their body. But his open to saying, maybe you will outgrow this. Let's just see what happens they conflict that with conversion therapy. So that's why I think people are so uncomfortable at the idea that maybe maybe let's not rush into transition talk a little bit more about trims identity because a reason has for many years had a trans person on our contributing editors lists than I I grew up in New Jersey in the seventies. Where? Renee Richards who had been a dentist who wanted to join the women's professional tennis tour is was like a huge story growing up in. Obviously there's people like Bruce Jenner. What is just dead named at hate land of sorry yet? Caitlyn rate is the communist in the world Dair DRA MacLeod who's on re has been a contributing Anderson. She should be. I mean, so famous she's so brilliant. But somehow, you know, get other she wants she has a stutter. And this is a funny story. This is I don't know fifteen years ago, or so I put together a special panel at the modern language association annual convention, which is for literary departments. And Deirdre was one of the people. We were the panel was on something like a post post mart or non Marxist materialist approaches to literary and cultural production or consumption or something like that. And she started talking, and she has a stutter, and she had just transitioned and a lot of people in the audience, she shoes well known among English people scholars because she did a lot in the rhetoric of of authority in economics and in composition among them. But she started by saying, you know, in my my life. I've been minimum anything's a memorial and AMAN and people were like Ivy, they did not know. How to deal with it? And it was funny because for them the fact that they were expecting Donald or DeAnne McCloskey, which were her previous names before she became Deirdre issue is transitioning it was less that they were now seeing a woman, and it was more of that or a stutterer, and it was more that they were seeing a capitalist because they had expected that theater McCloskey, you know, had to be a a lefty because I liked her. But what I was going to ask is from what I've read trans the trans population is about three tenths of one percent of the population three thousand that's doubled in the last ten years to six thousand now. So I'm, but it's it's not to say that because it's small it doesn't matter. But it seems that what why are we talking about trans identity so much now like what what is it? Speaking to is at a set of cultural anxieties that. I mean, it seems to have we talk about it much more it more than the the sheer numbers would seem to. I have I think that what happened was mid first of all it is in my opinion, a legitimate liberation struggle. Because there are people who are legitimately trans in the you know, trans identified harp. And it's horrible and went meeting people like deer McCloskey and reading the stories. I am quite sympathetic. However, we didn't really have a chance to have a full hearing of, you know, the various arguments, and and what happened was they came in very quickly after the you had you had women's rights. We've had the civil rights movement and gay rights, and they came in right after and just appropriated all of the assumptions in the arguments that you know, to be to do anything that would against their what they wanted was suddenly like being a racist or being at the sexist, you you. A second wave feminist. You are not a turf though, right? You're not a trans exclusionary radicchio. 'cause there's also that there's that. It's very interesting. And now the turfs who are mostly not exclusively. But a lot of lesbian women who. Don't like man or do not what you want to have safe spaces, and and male places that exclude males. Now, they feel like they're they're threatened and they want to have female spaces. And I you know, I can understand that. I think we should try to accommodate people. But now they've oddly made a they've been sort of excommunicated from the left and they're turning up at places like Heritage Foundation. And it's just it's so interesting. I guess part of it is also that some of the changing if not definitions kind of. Sensibilities around what it means to be trans goes in the seventies and eighties. It was it seemed to be all about surgery. Well, they'll have been transsexual people. And that's why I'm sympathetic. But now what's happened is you have a lot of young people that just suddenly declared themselves trans with no intention of. Doing anything to change their their sex. They just declared. It's a it's very fashionable. It's trendy it's cool speak to that is is, you know, an NIH -ssume that it's trendier among younger people, my younger son who. Graduated high school recently in his class. You know, the rose almost exclusively girls who were transitioning to be manner or boys. But it how much of this. You were saying earlier that sexual orientation is not really remedial. It's not you're not going to sign tation is linked with gender identity too. So what is that? How do those things come together? And then you know, is this is obviously there are trans people. But then there's also a lot of people who are kind of trying it on for size. I mean is that you know, is there a way to figure out what is the percentage of people call themselves trans who are actually just experiment, right so previously when we look at say gender clinic's of children, it would be for male patients so be mostly boys who were very feminine. And then in the last ten years there's been a sudden switch in the sex ratio announced predominantly girls. And I've written. About this issue before it's called rapid onset, gender dysphoric non necessarily all of these girls. But there is definitely this phenomenon of young women who have no history of being gender dysphoric. So I don't know if that's necessarily the case of your son's classmates, but these girls will come out of come come out as transgender often completely out of the blue one after the other in some cases, in friend groups that'll be more than half of the friend group coming out as transgender which suggests that it is like a social contagion and Lisa Littman. She's a physician and researcher at Brown University. She published the first study on this, and then all hell broke loose after excess disappeared it's quote unquote under review right now. Even though it was peer reviewed before went out. So I meant that other experts would have looked at it and vetted it and said this is good to go to the public. And then it since been deemed needing to be reviewed because of its methodological. Try back to your decision. Not to pursue an academic fo- Cassian. How much of it is that the you know that the academy is just not the, you know, you you you go into science or you go into, you know, advance scholarship in order to, you know, ask questions and research things in discovered new stuff in his that the climate for any kind of freeing up in exchange ideas is just not there anymore. Yeah. It's completely gone. It's gone. Even worse since I've left a year and a half ago. Whereas researchers now they see these things happening like what happened to to Lisa being mobbed attacked in called kinds of awful things. Even though she's just trying to genuinely understand this phenomenon. So other people say, well, I don't want that to happen to me. So I'm going to void any sort of topic that could be potentially contentious. Or if I do publish anything about it. I'm gonna make sure that those findings make people happy. What what do you think is driving that narrowing of acceptable discourse? And here we're not talking about bringing in idiot provocateur speaker to. Him. And we're talking about faculty members doing the research. What would you think is driving the, narrowing of what's acceptable? I think the fact that activists or anyone social media plays a huge role because these institutions funding agencies. They don't want to deal with even one or two very vocal angry people saying that you are racist, sexist, bigoted, transphobic, whatever. So I think that's part of it. And I think it's also partially the culture of academia where professors and researchers are busy enough. As is they're super stressed out. You know, it's it's a very competitive environment based on your research, getting funding alone. You don't wanna have to deal with mobs on social media coming after you on top of that. And they see their colleagues being shamed. And so, yeah, I just I think sort of last. Sorry, lost my train of thought. I wanted to actually go back to what we were talking about with prenatal testosterone, though. I think that's where it was deviating. But that's where it all begins. Yeah. That's where it all begins in terms of sexual orientation, gender identity in that higher exposure to testosterone is associated with more male typical interests and behaviors whether you are male or female. So if a female fetus is exposed to higher levels. She's more likely to be mailed typical when she's born and also more likely to be lesbian trying to two women. So that's the other thing with rapid onset gender dysphoric. A lot of these girls are actually lesbian, but because society is still homophobic, it's gone better. But I I definitely would think homophobia still a problem. It's easier nowadays to be a trans boy than it is to be a lesbian girl. Christina taco about your transition out of academe because in this happened by by the time, you did that you had already had a successful academic career. Associate professor at tenure at Clark university. And I started to just write about I started giving a paper at the American philosophical association challenging some of the central theories in feminist philosophy at the time, and they were all heavily Marxist. I I had been asked to teach a course on feminist theory. And so I sent away for the books, and I was appalled by what I found because I thought I guess that it would be like every philosophy textbook that you'd have like great arguments on both sides of some contentious issue that we would be debating I dunno surrogate motherhood and affirmative action or abortion in instead with these these eccentric theories about women's oppression. And they were just warmed over Marxism that just crossed out class and put gender somewhere on my bookshelf. I think have a copy. The of shila Beth Firestone's, my electic of sex, which was a popular bestseller in it. I mean, quite openly said basically, taking the communist manifesto at I'm doing searching replace for class or proletariat and putting women using. She is that that book, which she had the idea that we could make babies in labrador liberate ourselves from biologist is actually a out on a certain level. It is the work of a mad person on another. It is this brilliant kind of. Fun manifesto. And it has the shoes chart at the end where it's like where the goal was that not just women, but humans would be liberated from their bodies. And so you can have babies outside, and you know, in a lab which yet out there's nothing. Cool. That's so anyway, I was asked to so I just thought, oh, there are a lot of fallacies here and point them out. So I went to the APA to the society of women in philosophy and something happened that usually if you're there, and you read a paper, people are very critical you hash it out. And then you go out for drinks. We did not go out for drinks. There were people in the audience who as I was speaking stomping their feet and hissing. I mean, I it was it was like, I struggle session. They were philosophers. And I was I mean, I lost friends. I and I was excommunicated from religion, I didn't know existed. So then I just started to write about it in. Specifically. I went on the ship called semester at sea. And it was about thirty professors and five hundred kids you go around the world. And I was a professor with these thirty were you listen starting sound like Moby, Dick where you alone, you alone. Returned no. We all came back. But I was like the kids like five hundred young Republicans from rich from USC and. I don't know. They were not did they didn't get along with the faculty and the faculty they were several marxists and his very angry feminist named Carla. And he the the ship had disproportionate number of girls. Obviously rather privileged daddy had paid for their trip around the world, but Karla convinced them that they were oppressed. And by the end of the trip, they hated the boys and actually the boys didn't behave all that. Well, because of the ratio they were they didn't mind that there were so many girls. But anyway, I. Mini series. I was just appalled by the. The dogma and the waste of time. We would come into ports, and they could go and see, you know, some of the world's most amazing, you know, architectural works of genius. And we they Carl would take them to wedding stores to see you know, what that told about the oppression of women and cut dis Spain, and you know, it was just too much for me. So I wrote a piece about it called professor at sea kind of making fun of the left his professors, and I ended up palling around with the kids. I started to smoke. I had stopped but I needed a cigarette. So they were going to you know, a gynecological clinics in wedding source. You were going to strip clubs with to the camera. And you know, we were in in in Cairo. We'd go see this the Cairo museum and things invade be off deploring this. And that I it was just an experiment. It was so negative and it was so false. So I wrote about it. And I sent it to the Atlanta. -tic and the editor wonderful editor there. I don't think he's there anymore. Michael Curtis just said, so I couldn't use this article. But he said, but it's so interesting. You're you're criticizing feminism as a feminist in your academic. I want to hear more about that. He said write about the state of feminist theory in women's studies. So suddenly, I was a journalist, and I enjoyed it. And that was became the basis for my book who stole feminism. Do you an Deborah have this question for you as well, d worry though, I mean, I guess this is kind of a question of practice. You know, there is a difference between being at a think tank or being a journalist and being an academic, and I realized that academia can be a suffocating stoltifying environment. But do you worry that you're losing your chops by well ready for a general audience or not being in that discourse community that you were part of well, I had taught for many years, and I I know I enjoyed it. And. But I was getting a little tired of it gets repetitive. And you do find yourself it. I you're you're you're very young. And I used to worry that I looked younger than the students, and I kind of put glasses I tried to make myself look more serious. And then after a while I was not I was I was the age of their parents and then older than their parents. So it was fine to move on in a think tank is like a university without students. So you don't grade papers that was liberating, and I was just free to right? And so I still like I wrote the war against boys and one nation under therapy and other things at at eight Yod. That. Okay. That's me. Sorry. And I unless with Paris Hilton. We're not pick it up. I was able to a right. Scholarly books in the sense, everything typed tied to research into two good numbers. But for a general audience, and it was it was just fun and liberating night communicated with far more people. And now I find I found by accident. If you fear lectures or posted on social media or you do videos, you reach an even larger audience. So I I like sort of bringing my talents as a teacher and a an academic philosopher to wider public. And we love the factual feminists of thank you, Debra. How do you? How do how do you know that you're keeping up with your research interests or where where the sub interests at? You're in are going if you're not part of academe. Yeah. Well, I read all of the papers as they come out. And I stay in touch with all of my previous colleagues and many of my friends are still in the field. And I'm so proud of them one of my close friends, actually just got a faculty position. So I'm super happy for him. But I. I see what they have to deal with an I feel it's kind of like a a very complementary relationship that we have. So they're producing the research. But if they deal with any sort of backlash or people misrepresenting the work, they reach out to me. And then I say, okay, let me see is there something here that can help to clarify what you meant by that paper where it I mean on both sides. So we have say say the far left or leftist activists, and I still consider myself a liberal, but I'd say the ones who are a little bit more ideologically driven who will take say a a paper about rapid onset, gender dysphoric and say, this is a bigoted scientists, but you also have it on the other side where say research that is more sex positive gets turned into something very salacious or extrapolated to me things that the researcher didn't mean so on both sides, I tried to help correct for misrepresentation in the media who what is your typical reader? Do do you have one? And and I guess this more general question of we, you know, increasingly more and more people go to college. More and more people are interested in ideas. You know, I mean it it's fascinating. There's you know, people are really hungry for ideas. And one of the things that has, you know, developed in kind of new meteor online media, it always used to be, you know, if if you were going to do something online make it fifteen seconds, thirty seconds. Nobody has any attention. And in fact, you look at you know, the most popular podcast most popular video series. Oftentimes will go on for hours on a topic. Because people are really interested in this stuff the long-form podcast, Joe. And what what is who are who are your readers? Do you find or do what what what kind of comprises your audience? I fun like a lot of feedback on social media, which I really appreciate it because I get to hear from. I'm not a social media person. I don't have social media for my purse in terms of my personal life. If it wasn't for work. I don't think I would be on any of these platforms. So it's it's good in a way keeps me up with the times. And I get to hear from people all over the place. Telling me what they think my sense is most people are quite educated. Some of them are Democrats are. Former academics. And I think in terms of politically many people like me who are say liberals, but our bit disenfranchised conservatives, and I think also people who are just or maybe people who feel that they don't really fit into either camp. But I think the more prevalent trend I knows is just people who are open minded and really want to understand what the truth is. They may not agree with me on what my opinions are. But they understand my method in that. I'm just trying to present the data in a way that is fair and not be swayed by political agendas, and she writes for Quillet, and I will say they're just certain places right now that are so exciting. And I would say reason is one place the podcast the magazine the forum, the website, definitely and Quillet heterodox academy. And there's just other places where you're just finding people that are not automatically giving in to the dog. Moves because it used to be I don't know a place like the new Republic, you could have read kind of informed opinion that you was quirky. You couldn't predict but it's become predictable. And this has happened to other places. So I love what you do it. Thank you mutual admiration here. A little bit about. Okay. So we stipulate that there are you? If ever Lucien is true. You know, men and women are going to have certain, you know, our evolved to be different in particular ways that are going to end up influencing affecting or impacting our day to day lives. Even once we're off the savannah, and where where in New York City or Toronto or DC Christina wears a place where the those differences which were not going to be able to remediate a fully anyway and public policy or or. Outcomes that we want that are more equal say at wet wears a big place where those brush up against each other, and then hat, how do we as a society talk about that? Let's I said before you have to be careful about. Insisting that there are differences where they were there aren't there? Lot of ways to go wrong, and people are complicated. So you have to be careful with any individual you've to treat them that way. Because you just it's it's you can't determine someone's personality by knowing their gender. However, there are group differences. And so if you would nor these and just pretend, oh, well, you know, everyone's the same or or we can push everyone to be the same gender neutrality or something in teaching methods. You are likely to end up doing harm. And I'll give an example. I wrote a lot about boys the war on boys and you find increasingly classrooms are unhappy places for a lot of little boys because the characteristic play of male children cross culturally is rough and tumble play. There's a lot of sound effects. Mock fighting just rambunctious raucous play girls do it too but boys. Do it a lot? More and increasingly mother's parents in general and teachers don't like it. And there are experts on in playground dynamics. Anthony Pellegrini at the university of Minnesota. And he he says look this is the happy normal play of little boys everywhere. In fact, we even see it in monkeys and be similar male style. Well, it just suggests they're not captive to the culture of the gender wasn't enforced on them the gender binary. If you see it in vervet monkeys and the little females wanna go for more. Dr doll like care toys and the males gopher gadgets. And you think there's something there there is something there for most children, and is so if we let's say we have policies where we cut back on recess. We don't allow rough and tumble play. That's going to have a disparate impact on boys. And there are other things we could do that would be harmful to girls. So you have to keep in mind that there are these differences, and for example, the way parents react to having a child typically, the mother is just, you know, it profoundly attached it's harder for most women, not all but most it's harder to leave the child. And if you look at preferences, you find that a majority of women would prefer once they have Jill. Actually prefer to work part time or not at all. It's a small percentage about twenty percent of women that are just high-powered careers. Nothing will deter them they're very ambitious, but yet we have a entire women's movement. The sort of ignoring maybe eighty percent of women who want something else. So you who does? So that's what I'm saying. Is that you you don't you're not driven by you know, over generalizing, but on the other hand, if you ignore it, you're likely to pursue policies that are harmful or at least unhelpful Deborah is her a an issue for you where it's kind of who who we are evolved be comes into conflict with you know, what we want society to be. I think it seen that way. Sometimes, but it doesn't need to be so say when we look at Evelyn and my area of research previously with regards to human sexuality, men and women have evolved to be different. That's not necessarily a bad thing. But nowadays, I think especially with feminists current day feminism the emphasis is that women and our behavior should be identical to men, and this is not just with regards to career. It's also in our personal lives with sex and dating men and women have evolved to be different in terms of mating strategies, you know, these millions of years of evolution. So even though we have birth control now, and we'd like to think that we are more evolved, we can't override that programming. So how how does cause conflict? What is what I mean? I realize again, you know, everyone is an individual. But they're a group differences. What what are the salient differences in kind of like mating strategies between men and women? Then one theme I'm seeing a lot in terms of the people who reach out to me is young women saying I'm not interested in casual sex. But I'm being told that this is what liberated women do. And if I do do it. It doesn't make me happy. So is there something wrong with me? Or why do I not like it? And it just makes me sad to hear these things because I think you do what makes you happy. There are some women who enjoy casual. That's great. There are some men who don't enjoy casual sex. And you know, it is considered I guess stereotypical behavior. I don't think stereotypes have to be a negative thing. I think we can acknowledge that on average men and women behave differently. But you know, that that's okay. It's not saying that one is better than the other might issue is that when we try to suppress this information, if it's harming young women and young men in terms of the decisions, they make how they interact with each other. And ultimately the relationships that they have that's not a good thing. Just a final kind of topic to think about personal let's start with you you want to one of the interesting things when you talk about a lot of topics and certainly things like, racism and sexism homophobia whatnot. They're everybody would agree. I think that there's been an enormous amount of progress made towards equality and individualism, and, you know, acceptance in general, but how do you but? There's also a lot of people who wanted to ni- that any progress has been made or that doesn't matter until we're all across the finish line. How do you measure progress in relation to kind of women's position in society? And what what do you think still needs to be done? That's not getting done. Well for me. I guess I'd be kind of a preference utilitarian to me, a flourishing healthy society is one where the people can pursue what interests them it can be who, you know, high levels of of just self realization. And I, you know, I think we are a very Admiral admirable society in that respect at always room for improvement. But as you said there's a negatively there's an unwillingness to look at how far we've come. And now we have so many in the women's move that are just fixated on disparities in any disparity that favors. Men is automatically attributed to sexism. And what I wanna point out is that I there could be other explanations. And Secondly, what about the disparities that favor women? I mean, if it's a big problem that, you know, some more than seventy percent of the majors in an engineering or men is it a problem that the more than seventy percent of the psych majors are women, and I want some consistency there. I don't understand. And and the other thing is there's a huge a symmetry in in terms of representation, there are untold numbers of organizations who are looking out for women, and that's fine. I mean, we needed them we especially needed them in the seventies eighties. But what happens when you're the American Association of university women, you know, when you're in the six years haven't he's trying to work for. Women be given a chance in the academy. And then what happens when you know, the eighties women achieve parity with men and then in the nineties move beyond and then approach sixty percent sixty five percent. What point you say? Okay. They never say. Okay. Well, it's like the March of dimes right polio's looked in the fifty find something other. Sign. I there still are there's there is misogyny in the particularly in the popular culture. Even though I I think the most men are not sexist there still are sexists out there. So I don't I mean, we still need feminism. I think we especially need it across the globe. Where women have not had the benefit of two major waves of feminism, they have had hardly a trickle. So there's a need for a women's movement. But it should be reality based it should be have goodwill towards men it in. It's something. I also think men and women do together and not turn it into a zero sum game. You know, it's Venus against Mars and were rooting for Venus. I'm rooting for both men and women we're in this together. Deborah, would you. How do you measure progress? And what do you think is the what what is you know, a feminist kind of victory that hasn't been achieved yet? That's a question is I don't really feel like there's much in terms say in North American culture, western culture. I don't really feel like there's much that women cannot do that men. Can do. I'm thinking about movements recently like say me too. I think me too had a good core message in the beginning, and it to has kind of dissolved into something else. But I think as long as women can do it. They find interesting and are free to do. What makes them happy? That's what matters. It doesn't matter. Whether we are identical to men, I don't think that is a sign that we are truly liberated or that we are necessarily happier. Because in some cases, behaving more like men that doesn't lead to greater happiness for women. Well, I think we're going to leave it there. Thank you so much. This has been the reason podcast. I've been nNcholas be and we've been talking with Christine. Hoff summers of the American Enterprise Institute, Christina what's the best place to get your podcast? Well disco to at at fem spiders on Twitter in you'll find messages. Follow me on Twitter C H summers. All right. And we've been talking with Debra. So who is a psychologist who writes for the globe and mail in playboy and Quillet? And you do a podcast with a co host a podcast with Colette cult wrong speak. Where's the best place to get that you can find all my work on social media? I'm at Dr Deborah sue on Twitter and Facebook, Dr Deborah w so on Instagram, so I post all of my columns wrong, speak episodes, and all of the wonderful media interviews. I do like the one today. Well, thank you so much. Thanks for listening. Check us out at Google at apple at reason at Spotify at soundcloud, pretty much anywhere. You get your podcast. Subscribe. And let us know how we're doing. Thanks.

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S2E12: The Film Hollywood Wouldnt Make: No Safe Spaces with Justin Folk and Owen William Brennan

Steve Forbes: What's Ahead

40:51 min | 8 months ago

S2E12: The Film Hollywood Wouldnt Make: No Safe Spaces with Justin Folk and Owen William Brennan

"This is what's ahead. I'm Steve Forbes. Our guest this week are filmmakers. Justin Falk and own William Brennan. They've come out with a new movie called no safe spaces. The film is being released nationally. Ashley it has already been shown to audiences in select theaters around the country. You know universities. Once upon a time we're seen as bastions Aston of free speech and diverse opinions for scholars could fearlessly pursue any area. They wanted without fear retribution. Students could could speak their minds. Debate issues of the day or issues of the future or issues of philosophy but now what is happening in the universities is just the opposite. They're they're becoming close to diverse opinions. They want to shut dissenting opinions down. So what should we do about it. How bad is it in this movie? We get schilling episodes of what is happening. But also some hopeful insights of people who are fighting back to preserve the first amendment rights to free speech. The conversation with Justin and on is just ahead but in the meantime what's ahead well. Next week we get a big one in Britain they have a general general election. Boy This is going to hopefully resolve several issues. The biggest one is brexit. Boris Johnson the current prime minister be able to retain in an majority or achieve majority and be able to get a brexit deal through a will. The Labor Party headed by the virulently anti American. Anti anti-semites Jeremy Corbyn pull off an upset and win the election. This one is a big one. It affects not only Britain but it affects your and our relations relations with Britain which have been special for literally centuries of course impeachment battled rind on even though there have been no real sensational insatiable fines. It'll be gone through the house. You'll hear a lot about it though. Vote on it by the end of the year and then we'll go to the Senate and go nowhere where but we'll have to put up with it. But a more relevant issue in terms of economic prosperity will be tariffs on December fifteenth tariff. Supposed to go on. Numerous Chinese products be raised on numerous Chinese products but negotiations are proceeding day by day. Good news it's bad news. Will they reach a deal. Well I think they will reach a deal. But in the meantime you're GONNA have to put up with this roller coaster and the stock market tuck. It will react when the news. Good Arrows turned green. News looks pessimistic. They will turn red. It's the interest of both countries trees. Get this deal done or at least phase one done and when they do start to see more investment next year which will be good for the economy and good for the stock market in your 401k. So root for a deal. The faster the better the richer coaching. You'll be at least in retirement. And now my conversation with filmmakers Justin Falk and Owen William Brennan our two guests today Justin folk and Owen. William Brennan have directed and produced a most unusual and very alarming documentary called no safes basis. They come to US via skype. Justin the no-one welcome. Thank you Steve. Pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for having us. Steve Steve the film concerns the attacks and free speech on college and university campuses not so long ago. Institutions of higher education were bastions actions that protected new ideas unpopular viewpoints. Free speech. Racine is sacrosanct in the nineteen fifties and sixties for example. Oh people said leftist professor should not be allowed on campus. They wanted to purge them but the reaction was no free. Speech is absolutely at least sacred. Well today we have the reverse rigid ideological conformity seems to becoming the norm. Anyone who dissents from the prevailing and PC orthodoxy is subject to ostracism. Severe criticism intimidation perhaps physical violence. The pressure is on to apologize is or leave the campus. This is very very very different from what we had in the past. Several things make this must watch documentary unique one. It is riveting it keeps you glued now in here. The word documentary hope boring. It's good for me but you know. Get out that caffeine. Not but this one the use of special effects animation and other things keep you riveted from beginning to end to and we'll discuss this. In the moment the coupling of the stars one is Dennis prager a religious scholar popular radio show host creative prager university man who is not often seen without a necktie. By contrast Adam Corolla comedian. Someone call him man. Cave comedian animal house. Comedian rarely wears a tie. I don't think I've ever seen him in one. He's an atheist of prayers profoundly religious talk about an odd couple third conservatives and liberals are featured in this film while they different politics they are united on the need for free speech preserving bring diversity of opinion fighting against shutting down of debate as someone said. You need a physical workout. Your brain needs a workout so so at that. Let's start with your backgrounds Justin. Why don't you go? I will thanks. Steve pledged to be on the show with you. And we appreciate your interest in film. We feel it's an important film. I come from Hollywood why I started working in Hollywood back in the early two thousands I worked on the Matrix sequels else. I worked on a number of other Films Motion Pictures. So you learned early on. You've got to keep the audience interest right. I think I honed my crap half. I've always wanted to be a storyteller and a home Mike early early days with these big motion pictures and and learning from some really great storytellers. Along the way at a certain pointed wanted to go off and do my own thing. And that's when I linked up with Ellen Brennan here and we formed a company with our other business partner Bob Perkins our company Madison McQueen. We do messaging for groups in in ideas that are on our side of things You know we really wanted to get into the war of ideas and this film is a extension of that journey. We've been we've been at it. For Watt seven years as a company as a production team. No safe spaces. We started about two and a half years ago and we're finally got wrapped up and ready for the people to see just in time when this This issue is more important than ever and up. Yep Owen what. What did you get involved with this? might fight in. This has really been Most of my life I was Iran. The conservative Slash Libertarian newspaper at the University of Oregon. Where we actually had a first amendment case go to the United States Supreme Court We investigations funds into How student groups spent their money? We had our issues newspaper. Were dumped swear to figure out how to respond to that Did they burn them as the Germany in the early thirties. What quite but we had an expose on one of the student unions and all the copy mysteriously disappeared from the newsstands so instead of complaining? We believe that freedom of the press belongs to those who actually have oppressed and since we rented a press pretty frequently we tripled lower deck's press run and reprinted the issue and you can go anywhere on campus. Without seeing that issue our editorial sort of guidance at that newspaper I would say it's a fifty percent national review and fifty percent National Lampoon and we knew which fifty percent got students to pick up the newspaper and I think that's sort of a bit of the spirit in our films films. Well it's been a speechwriter for mayor. Giuliani through the renaissance of New York and the attacks on eleven. I worked at the fire departments of speechwriter for Commissioners Kapeta worked REX Tillerson as a speechwriter when he was at Exxon Mobil. And I've also been a news producer at both Fox and MSNBC and so in putting the film together. I knew how to to create sort of content for left audience content for right audience. And we really didn't want to do that in this. We wanted to create a film that everybody could see. Everybody could sit down and talk about We didn't want to really have a partisan film because this was really bipartisan. Problem affecting our country certainly the guests you had the Documentary certainly complimented that Principal and we'll get to to some of the names in a moment so out of the film come about you said it takes two took two and a half years. That's not unusual. Seemingly in the film world of the Station Station period seemed to be longer than elephants to get something from idea to screen. So how did this come about. Yeah you know our co producer. Rj Molar had been working with Dennis. Prager for some time. Dennis expressed a a interest to do a movie about what young people think about important issues. Dennis Prager of course is the founder of Prager University and with Prager University. They focus on boiling down complex issues to five minute minute. Videos Mostly geared towards young people and Dennis. Prager has just been concerned for some time about what young people think about our country if America a a force for good in the world number of other issues where they think of free-market capitalism or do they think of socialism. These are all issues that Dennis Prager is concerned about. What young young people in America stink because the CLICHE is true? Young people are the future and this film was born out of a desire to tell a story about what young people think. Now of course when once we got that started things really started to take off really blow up in terms of what was happening with free speech and free speech campuses in so that really informed our her story and focused us as we were beginning this story. The timing was interesting to say the least as we started to tell the story and we saw incident even after incident taking place on college campuses around the country but we also saw this expanding off the campus in into social media into the media at large at your place of work if if people were saying things that weren't that didn't fit the dogma of those around them than they were ostracized. They were shut down many times. They lose their job or be. You know the term canceled canceled. Culture was was starting to take over around the time that we began our movies so we really decided to focus on NAT and here. We are today with a film that I think I is more important than that's and even when we began and and by the way just just for full disclosure. I've done a couple of those five minute pieces for prager university and it's amazing the audience they have. I think they've had over two billion views since prager university began a few years ago. Yes to things to add to suggestions one. I just S. remembered this as justin was explaining the origin of the film. The phone was originally going to be called generation. Last as in if if this generation this generation nations e- loses the understanding of the American idea that quite possibly lead to the last generation of Americans which was sort of an interesting promise but it was like really sort of a wide ranging premise. We had we couldn't quite find a story thread and then We started seeing you. Know folks like Milo anomalous who's really an agitator and kind of performance artist being like Shutdown at at Berkeley those are some of the footage is in our film about just the violence up there. But then we saw folks like Ann Coulter and Ben Shapiro being protested violently and then when we knew that we were entering a time that was something incredibly different when Charles Murray Christina Hoff summer is Heather McDonald. Were being protested on college campuses. These are academics intellectuals they're bringing research arguments to campuses that we should generally and genuinely be able to discuss when we saw academics being shouted down violently attacks. That's really when our film found a lot of focus now technical thing. How are you distributing this film? You had a limited release. You're doing a national release It's quite something to be able to take a film like this again. A documentary and put it in theaters theaters and get popular audiences popular reaction to it. Walk us through that all it just and get to the specifics. But I'll say you know what are the things that we had to do. You're was Hollywood. Would Fund this film. Hollywood wouldn't make this film Hollywood. Wouldn't distribute this film so we had to go out and do all of this sort of on our own and And you know the toughest part was raising the money to to make this film Were as Madison McQueen as the film makers were first time filmmakers just as worked in films before but this is really our first baby and so we had the film it was much easier to get people interested interested in the film because I think the word stands on its own so right yeah so getting a film. Distributors is not an easy task especially for one that that only has has. It doesn't have the support of anything Hollywood so we really had to sell fun this thing and we also had to find a distributor. That would work with us. We had to provide a bring our own money. I need to the table and use a company that can get us out in a in a strategic way. We had to prove there was interest for this films. That's why we started with our limited release in Phoenix and then grew from there yet. It's a usually a lot of movies that go to the theater. Don't make money. I I believe the statistic is eight percent of films that go to the theaters. Don't make money until they reach home. Entertainment so But at the same time to get a movie out into theaters inhabit inhabit. Do well at the box office really is a cultural marker. People pay attention to a film that has done well at the box office and so we really wanted to make sure sure that many people saw this film as possible and so. That's why we really decided that we really had to have this film in theaters Steve You mentioned earlier about what type of film this is this. It's not just your typical documentary right. We really do that For people to Shell Out Fifteen sixteen bucks and go to the theater. You had to give them a little bit more of a cinematic experience danced than something. They could. Just watch on Netflix with talking heads and so and so forth so we really aimed to put a lot more into this film in terms of the animation. You mentioned mentioned in terms of the reenactments in terms of just the cinema value of our film to tell a great story in motivate people to go out to the theater to what to make an event of it and go out on a Friday night or Saturday night. Watch our movie and so that's why are you know. Took two and a half years to make because it takes time to do these sort of things especially when you have a busy guy like Dennis prager busy guy like Adam Corolla in. You're trying to get their schedules together. And work out the production schedule so we really added for a while. We really wanted to put as much into it as possible and here. We are with finished product project product. And I think that we're all pretty pretty happy without turn down we. We really hope raises a a big alarm with the American public right and you related earlier the importance of storytelling. Getting points across and in this the film you start with stories I from Dennis Prager and Adam Corolla of both of them Unusual stories. Tell us first about Prager in his experience as a young man in the Soviet Union. Dennis Prager is an interesting guy. He's been lecturing from a young age of eighty started lecturing at the age of seventeen. He learned several languages as a young man. He knows I think four or five languages fluently. One of the languages that he was fluent fluent in is well. A couple of language is Hebrew and also Russian and so he was recruited by the Israeli government at one point when he was young man. Probably about twenty two twenty the three years old to go over to the Soviet Union under the guise that he was teaching Russian are teaching Russian and Hebrew and and and working with the community there. But what he was tasked to do by the Israeli government was to supply names of Jews living in the Soviet Union to be able go to essentially get them out of the Soviet Union Diplomatically if Israel would requested a specific name of a person the Soviet Union would often let at that person leave and return to Israel and so Dennis essentially was hired by in a covert operation by the Israeli government to go find out who these Jews were were living in the Soviet Union in order to get them out and so Working as an agent for the Israel government is an interesting thing and so he he basically at the time was studying Marxism he was very interested. In what the Marxism was and and so that was why he was one of the reasons he was over there. And as a result he got a really good glimpse of of what talent tearing Marxism is and and basically saw. Aw The the the effects of Marxism on on a culture in fact when he came back to the United States he would tell people about Marxism. People didn't believe him. It just didn't didn't believe that it was it was the way he described it and even when he was in Russia and telling people about America about freedom. They didn't believe him either. They thought you know freedom that that's it's just anarchy so he really learned a lot of young man and I think informed him The rest of his life and Adam Corolla certainly didn't begin. There's the one person said about George Bush on third base didn't begin with the proverbial silver spoon in his mouth. Describe his story yeah. I don't think I was even on the team when he started. That's he was diverse base. Not even at bad. He probably was on the team when he started He grew up sort of lower middle-class here in Los Angeles. You know he grew up. You know wanting a basketball wanting you know wanting dinner you know. He didn't have avenue great aspirations. His mom was on food stamps. And you know he saw that at a very young age how you know being on food food. Stamps creates a life of dependency a cycle of dependency. That is very difficult to escape and he said out himself to sort of you know not follow that that path. He talks about in the film how he started working as a laborer. Basically you know not doing anything as apprentice would like laying bricks or pipe or anything like that that he started cleaning up garbage and doing the work that donkey could do basically he destroyed. It didn't make the film was that he had a car and and his his the guy who was running the construction sites that hey if you buy a truck a pay you twenty dollars more a week so he got creative his cars. We can get a truck as we can make twenty dollars more a week So he has a really sort of a He worked his way up yet. He's real horatio ratio Alger kind of story but got his big break right calling into to radio and just sort of making up characters When Jimmy Kimmel was a talk radio host here in Los Angeles and that led to them boxing together and sort of led to him becoming a comedian boxing together? Adam Adam Corolla was very involved in boxing. He's always been a great athlete. And at one point Jimmy Kimmel had a a show where he was going to be in a boxing axeing match with somebody. I don't know who but he needed somebody to train him. How to box and at the time was calling into the show and he e called in won't be like well I I can? I can teach you Jimmy. And so Jimmy's like okay. And that's that's how their their their friendship formed was Adam taught him how to spar so getting to the film Matt Self What is happening on the campuses? A share some of the story starting with the what happened at the University of Berkeley where Ben Shapiro was coming to speak and they wanted to charge the organization. Bring him on campus hundreds of thousands of dollars for security or tell him to get lost. Well this is actually a trend. We see across the country right now. where campuses in order to keep speakers. They don't WanNa have on campus. I forcing student organizations to pay tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands hundreds of thousands of dollars in security fees. You you know because it's their fault for bringing a speaker to campus that people are rioting It's sort of a a weird sense of logic for the administration's to come come to that but in this one particularly particular instance it We followed Ben up to Berkeley Actually Justin was as with teams all at him. Tell the story because he was sort of in the middle of the Malay and got a bunch of great footage up there. Sure Yeah and it just a backup bench. Shapiro was allowed to come to Berkeley a year. Before with no incident he basically had one security guard with them. And so it's really about what happens about three four years ago when this stuff to really started to to heat up on campuses starting with the Minor Milo Yannopoulos event that got shut down because of rioting lot of destruction and later in culture was set to come to campus from she got a shutdown and there were several lawsuits Ben Shapiro was set to com and it was it was rocky getting him him on campus ultimately they did allow Ben to come and we are with them. But as I mentioned Ben Ben was there very your prior with no incident so it's it's really less speakers themselves as it is the climates in the in the culture of all this that happened about three or four years ago of speakers being disinvited and shut down. One of the most chilling episodes in your movie was at Evergreen State. University in Washington. State were left of center. Professor man named Brett Weinstein did something that the student radicals didn't like and tale relate. The story what happened to him and HAP. What happened to his wife? Bread Weinstein header hang were very popular professors on campus. They're both tenured students. Love Them. Very much There was a tradition on evergreen campus. Every year called day of absence and the day of absence was based on a play. Say That basically people of Color would not show up to campus on that particular day. Whatever the day was to prove the point how important they are to the campus? In general neural and one year they decided to flip the script. The group of protesters decided to tell all Caucasians or people that were not have colored to stay home instead so they flip the script or they thought they were flipping the script. They're basically telling people not to show up on campus that day based on the color of their skin now Brett and heather being liberals they just thought this was nonsense and they decided to show up to teach that day. Anyhow in it caused a huge disturbance there was massive protests rioting about their essentially not participating in the day of absence the way they were asked to and it really became a national story. It was really amazing to watch this unfold and it was. It was violent it was aggressive and at at one point the campus security basically told Bret that they could not protect him anymore but he wasn't safe on campus as a professor. He was not safe on campus this anymore and so for us. This story was very important because we look at it. As example of what's going on you know an example of the whole in fact bread lexicon a case specimen for what's going on on campuses nationwide and bread in our film basically really makes the point. That what happened to him is not unique in. It's coming everywhere and sew. Evergreen is a very important example sample of how far this can go and how this is spreading into every part of academia every part of the culture. One of the chilling parts of that episode was when an read Weinstein relates. How he used to ride this bicycle to work? Every day he was riding the bike. We saw a group of men they had handhelds and he realized they were planning to do something. And it wasn't to pat him on the head he fortunately new oh other ways to get to work off beaten path so to speak and quickly took it and avoided what would have been violent confrontation. Then another one if if you could relate. This was the footage you had of a female student who must have said something nice to heather or to a Brett and She was humiliated and forced before a group of students. And you recorded this recanting. Like the Cultural Revolution in China relate that that that was really really frightening. Well during this whole process the thing that really befuddled Brett and heather was the fact that nobody really wanted to engage with them. None of these protesters wanted to get to the root of the matter or discuss these issues with them they just wanted to yell and scream and end shut things down down and every attempt that they made talk to people was met with fierce resistance and in one case there was a young woman that just simply wanted to talk to them and understand their story and she had not gotten the message that that was not okay to engage in the conversation with bread. And so what happened. Was the protesters later. took her in mid an example of her by making her read a statement and public at a rally they were having and this poor girl was not very good public speaker She was not good at reading and speaking in front of a group and she was very very nervous and they effectively humiliated her in front of the group in front of the the rest of the people that were at this rally to make the point that they had recaptured her. And as you mentioned Steve. It's it's a tactic not not unlike. What what What happens in Communist China or even the Soviet Union to make a point to really show? This will happen to you if you decide to to stray off the reservation so It was very sad. Story we had it was captured on film and so it was gripping and in very telling that this kind of thing could happen on an American campus very scary on one of the most liberal progressive campuses This is really. This is why the film is so important You know I think. David Ruben makes the point that day David Rubin as a noted Libertarian. Right yes I think he's a life long Democrat. So maybe a centrist Democrats who has a fairly popular podcast. But he makes the case. That's it's you know it doesn't matter what your politics are if you have a spark of individual individuality if you're a little bit different if you're an odd ball if you have an opinion that doesn't quite fit fit in they will come after you and destroy you and you know that for him to say that. Might Sound Very Glib but then we spend about in the film you know twelve minutes. Let's in this incredibly compelling story about the Weinstein's and how the whole system to against them and how they were sort of. I attacked the purged. It's really a as somebody who knew the whole story. I didn't even know the whole story. When we finally got to? The the Maoist Element of the recapturing. The dissenters you also bring examples of an individual students One her name was Lindsay. Shepherd in Canada relate. What happened to her will? Lindsay is another example of somebody who thought of themselves as being On the left in very progressive Lindsey was a teaching assistant at a school up in Canada and she was teaching a class that dealt out with grammar and one day in class. He decided to show a video to her class to show how grammar's important but also grammar could be controversial. The video she decided to show was A CLIP FROM TV Ontario. which is the public television up there? And it showcased a professor a Gender studies debating Jordan Peterson the professor from the University of Toronto and so this was a very public debate. It was on TV. Ain't she decided to show this clip to her a class and she showed it to him in a very neutral fashion. Just wanted to to relay the debates. That was going on. She didn't take a stand one way or another but the administration received complaints from several students in the class were offended by her showing this video and so the administration came after her and really Wanted to punish her trying to figure out what to do with her She secretly recorded the audio from that meeting with the administrators. which is it's really really really compelling audio and it's it's very revealing the mindset of these administrators how they were handling the situation and really how they were getting rid of getting rid of all? Dissenting thoughts are not allowing even teachers to who present material in a neutral fashion. Very very scary again. Very reminiscent of sort of Maoist and totalitarian and mindset of. We are not here to discuss ideas. We are here to teach and re educate people on what right thinking is in in their debut to be right thinking and Lindsey not a conservative and had a what was shut down because of just drinking being an offering opinions that were were not popular another compelling note from her that sort of tell about the progressives She made the the argument that one. This is a university. We should be able to talk about anything and these are adults. We're talking to and the administrators came back and they said Oh. They're very young adults. They haven't learned how to think correctly at one of the compelling features of your film is the fact that you reached out to people who would be considered people of the left To make the point about free speech how did you get people like Cornell West or Van Jones to participate. I think one of the things. That's sort of important that I think about in my own life is to have some trans ideological relationships. It's important for us to engage and have friends friends who are of the left. I grew up with neighbors who were raging hippies. They probably won't listen to this. So that's safe Theresa here but it made me realize for the rest of my life even though somebody's leftist they may be somebody I I could love and enjoy their company so we really really sort of went as we started here people on the left saying certain things we would call them contact them get their email start you know saying. Hey you know we're Doing this film across country When we're in your town you know? Would you be available for an interview. Think Robert George Cornell West had signed a letter now west Washington Washington Journal and Robbie George are both the professors at Princeton Robbie seen as a conservative cornell. West of of the left but they agreed agreed to debate each other civilly. Yes and they actually they. Also they generated this letter to colleagues that ended up having hundreds if not thousands thousands of signers about the the importance of having intellectual freedom on college campuses to question anything and to be free to ask you know troubling questions. We had also heard Van Jones Gave a speech about the importance of free speech so we tracked him down through CNN. Dan Rea able to get him on Cameron's even have clips from president. Obama are film where he's talking to young people about the the importance of having differing points of view on college. Campuses Obama tells the story about what he went off to college campus. All of a sudden who surrounded by people who had ideas that were like is Hamady learned to talk to people as opposed to just see the silencing them just to follow up on that in anticipation of our film being out there. We really didn't want it to be discounted counted as a what we knew the attack would be. which would be called a piece of right wing propaganda? We just felt like the ideas and the foundational issues that we're you're focusing on in this film. Were too important for this film to be disregarded because people viewed it as a right wing thing and so we just felt it was so important to not just have you know our our people like Dennis and Adam and people like Ben Shapiro. Jordan Peterson but to add some balance to that and happy Van Jones Cornell last to to round out our our people that were making arguments in our film that way the film would be much more palatable to somebody who's a liberal Making Watch so Mike this and see President Obama making very good point and I'm no Obama Fan. I don't think Owen is either but he does make a some important points on free speech as does Cornell West and Van Jones and we felt it was important to have that kind of balance now the film ends on somewhat of an optimistic note. relate late about that Lawsuits that were filed that Against these some of these universities successfully that we're trying to find ways to shut down free speech where where the things stand today. Yeah we've sort of seen the tide turning on college campuses Greg Lukianov just gave us an update. He is in our Phil. We also went to the organization called the fire Foundation for individual rights in education a real first amendment defender out there and he I said the other. The tide is turning college. Campuses of using this security Trick for for years but now there are a number of cases is that have been high profile enough that have Sort of put the pressure back on the college administrators. Take control of this problem as opposed to busily taxing Student groups off of campus or forcing them not to have speakers come to campus because they can't afford the quote unquote security fees. I think the greatest pushback though isn't happening on college campuses. I think the greatest pushback is actually happening with Comedians. I think people like Dave Chapelle in Bill Burr. In even Adam Corolla. I really sounding the alarm on this issue And they are starting to push Seinfeld. Seinfeld raise the alarm years ago when he said he wouldn't go to college campuses anymore. And a lot of a lot of Comedians feel the same way I keep. Davidson is basically said the same thing just recently so I think comedians are the ones that are really started. Push back because of course if they can't tell jokes and they don't have a job so they And these are not conservatives either people a lot of them on the left that are speaking out and so I think you know people like to laugh and when they hear that they're comedians aren't allowed to tell jokes. I think that's going to influence people in profound way due to start to fight this thing no matter where they are in the political political spectrum. I think people when they see Dave Chapelle being met with resistance are GonNa be like no this has gone too far this political correctness and this suppression of speech has to stop so we do see the pendulum swinging a bit. And that's reason I think the to give give let's hope well. The greatest enemy of tyranny is humor may making fun of them so You may be right. The COMEDIANS are leading leading the charge. Who who who would have thunk it? That's right and democracy dies when there's a lack of humor there's no comedy or Justin unknown. Thank you so very very much for sharing your time with us and good luck with the film. No safe spaces. Where where can they go online to find out a theater near them? NO SAFE SPACES FACES DOT COM has a button labelled theaters and you click on that and find a theater. Nearest you buy tickets there as well. Terrific Nick well thank you both very much and thank you for what you've wrought. Thank you very much the Forbes appreciate please call me Steve. Don't make me feel so old. Thank you Steve. Appreciate the time thank you. I hope you enjoyed our conversation with these two. A unique filmmakers and about the disturbing news they're bringing but also the fact that people are fighting back for the basic liberties that have made this country unique and Great and now my reeds of the week. Two of them are from the city journal. You can find them. On City Dash Journal dot org that cit I t y Dash Journal Dot Org the first one is entitle the CDC proves trump bright on vaping. There's been a lot of bad science about vaping. The additives used and marijuana. vaping are very very bad. That is where you're getting these lung diseases. That's where you're getting these deaths but these additives are not used in what is called Nicotine vaping. which is what most vaping is about you? Shouldn't you shouldn't smoke. But vaping is far far safer ninety five percent safer than cigarettes and that kind of vaping. You're not gonNA get these illnesses. Ellis's that are dominating. The headline the pieces written by John. Tierney that's T. I. E. R. E. Y. and again can be found on citydash journal Dot Org. The next one from the city journal is an optimistic one. It's entitled if you let them. They will build. Oakland shows that all you have to do to expand the housing supply is tell developers they can put up. New Homes remove the unnecessary restrictions directions and regulations by. Golly good things happen the pieces written by Phillips Brinson. Let me spell that for U. S. P. R. I. N. NCAA I N. S. P. R. I N. C. I n.. And it can be found in Sydney Journal dot org the final read of the week comes. I'm from the Wall Street Journal. wsj.com this one is entitled a prescription and poetry doctors at several major hospitals. Those are experimenting with poems as a source of psychological relief and connection. This simply goes to show. There's more to health and medicine and then just taking pills or the operating table and when you go to this peace read a poem written by patient. A moving one called scared scared it will make you grateful for the good health that you do enjoy. Thanks for listening to you. What's ahead? I'm Steve Forbes looking forward to next week and if you could rate review and subscribe to the show we had Forbes Forbes and sure would appreciate it.

Dennis prager Justin Adam Adam Corolla Steve Steve Ben Shapiro professor Hollywood Soviet Union Owen William Brennan Justin Falk Berkeley Steve Forbes US Prager University Heather McDonald William Brennan Brett Weinstein
'We Are Fighting for Free Speech Every Single Day,' Says Students for Liberty's Wolf von Laer

Reason Podcast

33:12 min | 1 year ago

'We Are Fighting for Free Speech Every Single Day,' Says Students for Liberty's Wolf von Laer

"There's this is the reason podcast. I'm your host Nicolette Spey. Please subscribe to a set apple at Google at Spotify. You can listen to us at that great streaming service or a catch up with us at reason dot com as well. And wherever you go rate and review us, if you can it's always good to hear about what you think. Today. I am talking with wolf on lar-. He's the C E O of students for liberty. And I'm also talking with David Clement. He is the director of external relations for SF L who have their great annual international conference that pulls together two thousand students and activists and people interested in libertarian ideas in Washington DC two thousand of them at January seventeenth to the twentieth. We're going to be talking about what the agenda is at liberty con who's going to be speaking there. And as importantly, what are what are the key issues that are facing younger people not just in America. But in Europe and South America and Africa all over the world. Wealth and David thanks so much for talking with reason today, it's a pleasure to be. Thank you, very much revenue son and David since I you you are kind of like the day to day guy running the show, and everything could you tell people where is the best place to go to online if they want to check out the full agenda, the speakers, and how much it costs to go to liberty cop. Yeah. The best place. I've people are are interested in attending the best place to find more information is WWW dot liberty conduct com on their you'll they'll be able to see all of the great speakers that we have. And what's actually unique for reason? Subscribers or for reason listeners supporters is can use a discount code called reason to simply spelled out. That actually reduces the cost of ticket by forty percent. So if they like what they see they can they can attend the conference in because there are supporter of reason, and you guys are such. Valued partner for us that that discount code will take forty percent off their ticket while that is very generous. And it'll it'll make it possible. I guess for all of our all of our fans who are heavy in bitcoin, maybe to be able to to actually Ford being able to come this time around. Yeah. So liberty Kat you have a I well here. Let me let me start with you wolf you. When you run a group like students for liberty. What are the what are the key issues that are in front of of, you know, the kind of student movement or the youth movement for liberty? And is it are they the same issues globally or does it shift radically from one region to another? Yes, they do change quite a bit. We I it initially. I mean, that's Louise mild seven strange name and his French accent. Because I'm a product of the organization myself. I started the UPN students. So liberty movement starting in two thousand eleven which is now. In every European country of the Allston Email and beyond and it really does change quite a bit. I, but I think they are common threads which you can see across the world, which would be first and foremost, of course, fighting socialist ideas universities breeding ground for those not only in the United States, but in many countries abroad and some countries meaty that even universities with economics departments. But you still have boxes scholars teaching economics, which is like mind blowing these stupid that those ideas are still there, but that's still happen and many of the students are attracted to socialism, or what you call here in the United States nowadays democratic socialists, whatever that means, and that is really comments about another threat is that we have seen not only in the United States, which we've reported on. And some of your fellows writing books about is free speech. We have fighting that every single day. But also we have issue seeing at my Amata at King's College London yon, Brooke speak. From the England institute he was being attacked by people from the left and that'd be seen. Now in the UK. You've seen this popping up in Australia. And now it someplace and other places in Europe as well. And that is really something that'd be worry about and focus a lot about Andrea focusing on building bridges instead of saying, look, we have is we have to write ideas retired and like slept him over the heads with human action or with to serfdom and say you have to eat this. You have to even this. We weather trying to find like a dialogue and tell them like why they're wall when they take free speech what you know. You know, David one of the marquee events is actually going to be a conversation about free speech, and I and I guess related constitutional rights, featuring a Randy Barnett, the Georgetown law professor who is a highly probably the most highly regarded libertarian legal scholar around and Alan Dershowitz, who is a fascinating figure over the past fifty years of American American jurisprudence, always a strong liberal, and and mostly civil libertarian. He's also been in favor of some, you know, very kind of sketchy from a kind of doctrinaire libertarian point of view sketchy defense of certain types of light really nasty kind of military adventurism whatnot. And he is he appears now as sometimes a defender of Donald Trump in various, you know, on TV and whatnot. What is what is that debate about? And why is that an important? Why was that important to have on the program? Yeah. So the the reason why we put something like that together as to to have a conversation, obviously between the two that has some of these more nuanced or nitty gritty discussions beyond the headlines that obviously everyone gets so Bob down with the both have they both have a resume that is incredible. And so the fact that we can have both of them discussing various constitutional issues that are present today. The they both have obviously varied perspectives on different issues. And so we really think it embodies not only what Esa fell is about which is very much having that conversation and encouraging discussion debate, and and really trying to push the envelope in terms of exposing people to to new ideas. But also taking that one step further and in really getting the most out of these two individuals who have so much to offer in terms of their insight. So we're really really excited about how fascinating that conversation will be and that actually takes place at our annual awards dinner, which is on the Thursday of the conference. So what about Trump, and and and it's not just Trump because Trump is obviously an incredibly divisive polarizing figure who from libertarian point of view, and I can even see this happening among my colleagues, but also other people I know in the libertarian movement where he is so odious in so many ways, you know, on a kind of personal the way that he carries himself the way he speaks the way that he tweets many of his specific actions, you know, are are profoundly just kind of gross involved. Then there are his policy some of which are pretty damn great in terms of libertarianism. I think in terms of some of some of the tax reform that was made possible by him that that happened last year, but also deregulation at various government agencies like the EPA in the FDA and the FCC, and I'll be I'll be interviewing the FCC chair GP will be talking about net neutrality. You know has anything bad happened since that was repealed, and what's coming in five, G, revolution, etc. But somebody like Trump, and there's a long winded kind of wind up here. I guess to you wealth. You know, Trump is is that a is it a problem for libertarianism is an opportunity is it nothing one way or the other. I think it really depends. What you see specially over the early stages of Trump's presidency is you have libertarians who struggle with. A president who is of such poor character. You have those who kinda see civil the silver lining of various policies like you mentioned the FDA or the FCC, and then you have those who have kind of become supporters and support the more populist, and in some instances, very anti liberal anti LeBron Aaron policies, and so I think the Trump era is something that is still is still very much a question Mark for the libertarian movement. I mean much of the modern movement if we want to call it in the post, Ron Paul revolution was very much in a was was very much built in the Arab of democratic a democrat as president. And so there are some of these ongoing issues, and that's part of the reason why this conversation is so fascinating because there are variety of opinions. There are people. Who see the Trump presidency as an opportunity there are people who see the Trump presidency as as as a very worrying signal of adds something where we have to put aside our disagreements with people on the right or the left to defeat him, you know, kind of in a United resistance because, you know, which I also find kind of stunning it's you know, it's amazing that he's pulling troops out of Syria in a way that Barack Obama didn't do and he's anti immigrant, but Barack Obama was kind of anti immigrant. George Bush might have been better on immigration. I don't I don't know. He's terrible on free trade. But wolf how how do you balance these things? And especially, you know, the one thing that seems to be true is that Trump is is a he is like bear bear repellant to young people. They don't he does not seem to you know, he didn't do well with younger voters, and does that also flop over into younger libertarians as he is he likes a turnoff in. Which way that you have to be against him completely in order to get anywhere with younger libertarians. Yeah. We are seeing the same thing with students like some of them like him and some people be hate him. But it's it's really what is unique about us that our students don't give in into cult of personality, even the people who might be like more favorable to him would admit, his, flaws and woods, look more subtly on that whereby what we see in society in general in politics in particular and also campuses that people weedy just give into the cult of personality. They say like, okay, if you say something positive with Trump, your Trump is, you know, and people don't view distinguish about all of these issues anymore, which is very problematic. Of course, you have to point out where he is like considerably in general, which is just making everything more polarized and having the United States, a PM more like Latin American country where the left and the white cannot talk to one another anymore because it's so so's charge. That is a huge issue. But what I think would always students are doing better is. Said they can have more subtle commiserations about that. And we ought to both sites on the isle to have again to civil discourse. And I think that's makes us unique. And that makes possible to have thousands of students within students for liberty. But whereby people from different viewpoints with different stances on Trump can't come together and have respectful productive conversation where people don't waste voices while you know, if if I'm gonna I'm gonna pitch one of the things that reason is doing we have a panel that I'm going to be moderating that features FIS all. Muhtar cited Muhtar of a group called ideas beyond borders, that is they translate books, you know, books by people like Sam Harris, and and Steven pinker into Arabic, and then they released them as free e books into the Arabic world to try and get ideas, new ideas, put into that along with Christina Hoff Sommers of the American Enterprise Institute who has a very highly consumed podcast called fem splatters who is the factual feminist who pushes back, both, you know, certainly against patriarchy, but even more so against kind of shoddy use of statistics argumentation by kind of radical feminists. And we also have Brendan O'Neill whose the editor of spiked a really provocative of free speech, foreword magazine or website based in England that is the remnant of an old magazine that used to be called living Marxism. So you know, they're going to be talking about. How to maintain or how to how to kind of generate and sharpen and circulate into strict heterodox ideas in an era where everybody seems to belong to one team or the other. So you know, that to your point while I think were they the conference is always interesting because it brings that you know, that sense of colloquy and dialogue even in a group that has, you know, profoundly libertarian at a different perspective altogether, due to the fact that we have many international participants always coming to this conference to give you an example. I mean, the United States talks about Trump all day everyday. He's at the moment. But if you talk to some of our students that have helped I event that we had in Afghanistan this year where seventy people showed up to talk about. It's classical liberal ideas, and that events that you talked to them, and you we it is the was delayed for two hours. Why? Because there was traffic on the road because it was a suicide bombing. But it's normal for them. This is just might bogging. You can really fathom that. But they said like, okay, just happens. Nobody could hurt from to win attended the event from us. But they just showed up and talked about these ideas because they're so important, and they're so important independent on who is an office. And that message is reading paternity where reason students liberty many other organizations within the movement could make more headway for people who are on the fence either way. Yeah, it is when you were talking about kind of cult of personality, even you know as much as I think Americans pick and choose presidents, as you know, kind of like avatars, and they would be playing a, you know, in world of warcraft as or something like that, you know, even people like Trump or Barack Obama or Ronald Reagan, probably the the most beloved president. I guess at some point, you know, we we don't care about them the way that it, you know, I mean, it's good. It's healthy. When we they're not the center of our universe either. As an object of scorn or an object. Adoration, you know, when we look globally populism, and you know, and I mean, there's the Venezuelan cult of personality which hopefully is going down the tubes. Before more people are, you know, severely damaged and oppress there, but in places like Europe, you know, you see a lot of this as well. Is it are you know is populism. A is it a global wave? Or is it a series of local kind of developments that were linking together. Because that's what we do by default. But in fact, these are profoundly independent movements. Or are we in a new psychiatrist now where something is happening where populism is on the rise? And if that's the case, how does the libertarianism counter counter that movement? Yeah. Show from my perspective. I think that the rise of populism. If we call it that is more or less response to the changes that we've seen across the globe of over the. Let's say twenty or thirty years. Do you think it's something that is that is growing? Now, I say that with an Asterix that obviously there are convo go flavors depending on where you are. And there are differences in terms of political endeavors or or or political policy as well. In terms of what counts as as populism. So you have the populism that is represented on the right in terms of what's going on in Brazil, or let's say someone like Donald Trump. But then again, you also have populism on the left. The politics Bernie Sanders and kind of that more extreme progressive viewpoint. I think the role for libertarians here is to stand our ground in terms of the value of these classical, liberal ideas and the importance of defending them and highlighting the success in prosperity that the these. Ideas have the success and prosperity that these ideas have generated for people around the world, not just in North America, not just in the United States, but in the developing world in poor countries in so I think really what our job is as as those classical liberal slash. Libertarians is to hold our ground throughout this populist. Wave to continue to advocate for these pro liberty ideas and try and chip away at where these populist movements really turn their head into these ugly collectivists big government. Nah, policies or approaches. Let me make a noti between social scientific point. If I may it also media show, some the data that's the west general in many more countries beyond that become more and more polarized over the last couple of decades. So it's a phenomenon bet steps born out of statistics. And I think the result of like, I think this is based because our democracies have become. So big if you live in Switzerland, and you vote there in your ketone, it makes sense it meadows. You know, the local judge, you know, to which pop they're going. You can yell at them. If they're doing something that's against the constitution. There's a different form of feedback with such as competitive society regular like three hundred million people where their vote for like what president about hundreds of hundreds of issues, which are infinitely complex. So I think the reason why we're seeing this is because people feel disenfranchised because they know that their vote doesn't count because they have like an fist most small impact on the elections. And if he had more radical federalism and more decision making on the ground. We would have expectations be more quantity. And see that would be so much more meaningful discourse. Because people would see the actions, and what the actions mean in terms also of costs by now, you can vote for something as stupid as as wall slow several billions of dollars, and you wouldn't be any of the costs yourself. It would be diffuse throughout society and people don't feel the consequences. Of their vote. Yeah. I think that you're right about that. But the, and then there's also the, you know, the kind of economic analog to that where people feel like their effort doesn't matter. And you know, I'm not I don't actually by that. But I think that's one of the arguments that you hear the people feel disenfranchised in a global economic system because it doesn't matter if you work hard, your, you know, your job is just going to disappear or prices will go up or products will disappear from the shelves, regardless of your actions. And I think that's a profound misunderstanding of how economies work, particularly in the United States. But it seems like that's also driving some of this populace moment both on the right and the left that, you know, your individual efforts and actions are delinked from any kind of outcome that you might have in your life. That's true. But I think the one billion people that over the last one or two decades got out of absolute what's told me. I agree. Yeah. Yeah. And I think we need to push more and more and not only use the data. But also tell the story behind that. Because it's it's difficult to understand what one billion means. But if he would be able to break on law and tell them that this is a family in China. And India that have choice now to get the kit into good school competitive. See their kid die when like four years because of malnutrition. This is real thanks SF. How I fundamentally that? Yeah. It's fundamentally the result of of market kind of globalization and markets reaching more parts of the world earlier in the fall. A couple of groups announced that a majority of people living in the world have effectively when you look at purchase a parody purchasing parody and whatnot are at in the middle class, which is unbelievable. And it's and it's a great success story. And yet, you know, those of us in developed economies spend all of our time talking about how there are no jobs. There is no meaningful work or that factory jobs are disappearing. It's it's an incredible this structure, and I think, you know, again to talk about liberty con specifically one of the things that has has always been fascinated to me, and I've been going to these things I think since the very first one or one of the very first ones. But is that when you meet people who come not simply from other parts of the US or other parts of the west, but you know, all over the world, particularly the developing world, you get a much better sense of perspective of how varied at the world is and how many parts of it are just going gangbusters a very good way. David. Would you talk about a couple of the headliners, and what what they're going to be bringing to to liberty comp. Absolutely. Absolutely. So I mean, the first kind of notable notable speaker whose who's worth mentioning is Steve Forbes he doesn't need much of an introduction. Terms of who he is. But what he'll actually be talking about which is never so relevant in terms of current conversations. Politically is the rise of fake news. And what to do about it? And so to hear from someone like Steve Forbes who who's obviously been in that media space for so long about whether fake news is an issue. Whether it's new whether it's an old phenomenon. Whether or not any action is needed on it at all improviser attendees, really unique opportunity to hear from someone who has been around for a long time and. Tap into his wealth of of wisdom on the subject. So that is that is the first first headliner definitely worth mentioning another one that you mentioned is the FCC chairman edgy pie who will be having a conversation with you on the Friday evening of the conference talking about things like net neutrality in what the end of net neutrality has has done to the way in which consumers engaged with these these internet providers answering some of those various questions than the net Friday programming will actually conclude with congressman just Josh who for most libertarians is one of the leading pro liberty voices in congress one of the only few who's left, and so we're really excited with the Friday programming those role the Friday programming that we've. That we've secured thus far. And so we really think that it's it's a top notch program to open up the conference on that Friday evening while and of course, on Saturday, and I'm gonna promote reason a little bit while a have you guys on the phone reason is going to be having a bunch of panels, including a discussion of of gaming, and how it relates to various forms of self expression with Catherine manga ward and Peter Sudirman. We're also a Catherine the editor in chief of reason magazine also going to be talking with Robbie swab a about his book that'll be coming out in June about the new campus activism. I it's a wide ranging luck at people who both on the right and the left, and what is driving a millennial and jen's e activists on campus. We're going to do a live version of reason magazine where for about an hour. We're going to kind of tell stories and jokes and do a bunch of things. For it's kind of like the prairie home companion. But for reason, hopefully with fewer problems, and you know, garrison Keillor tends to drag along with himself. But and then we're also going to be talking to a bunch of heterodox thinkers as well. As Matt Welsh is going to be talking with William Weld, the former two-term governor of Massachusetts who was the libertarian vice presidential candidate last time around and is a pretty fascinating guy when it comes to talking about, you know, retail politics and bringing in more libertarian ideas, rather than more conservative or more liberal, ideas wolf who are who are you looking forward to absolutely that would be off the book. So may because I think his communication style is one of the best within the water liberty movement. He is heading of course, the very famous think tank DA I and he has very good talks about how we have to. Speak to the hearts and talk to people. That'd be we care about them because of the criticism. So it's a classic liberals. Instead, you don't care about people. It's all about the individual me me and don't tread on me and all that kind of stuff, and he's presenting a very definitive and very interesting unveiled live one and he's fantastic speeco. So we are glad to have him there. David who are some of the other people that will be showing up on Saturday. So couple couple of other items that I'm super excited about we have a universal basic income debate that'll be between Jeff Myron who is from Harvard and Andrew Yang who is a democratic candidate for president in twenty twenty. So that will be that will be exciting. And that's of course, fascinating. Because the universal basic income, which is one of these ideas that had been kind of sitting on the back of a shelf somewhere for a long time. It's getting a lot of play and people such as Milton Friedman talked about it back in the day. Charles Murray, the scholar at a guy. Wrote a book kind of promoting it. And it's it's one of those things that has adherence on the you know on the right on the left in the center. So what's your sense is enter Yang for real? Because that's that's his basic platform. Right. He wants to implement a universal basic income partly to minimize the dislocations of of modern economies. Right. Yeah. I mean, it's it's hard to say where he'll end up after the whole primary process. But I definitely do think he's for real he's he's the real deal in my eyes. I certainly think he's a more market focused democrat, which is a bit of a positive whether or not you agree with the main platform, the main policy that he has I platform which is the freedom dividend, but we're excited to host him a conversation between him and Jeff Meyer from Harvard's going to be fascinating. We also have someone who has been a libertarian for a long. Time, but not many libertarians have heard from in a while, which is Rupert bone them for anyone who was a survivor fan Rupert. What is actually a bit of a legend when it comes to that popular reality TV show, and he ran for governor as a libertarian in Indiana against Mike Pence, and so he'll be at the conference OB unique opportunity for people to to hear from him and outside of those two. We we also have a cannabis industry panel, which is going to focus on some of the big questions that are now looming given that the kind of tied of legalisation seems to be coming in and that will feature to to industry executives as well as Bill weld who is now in the cannabis space. So they're certainly a little bit of everything for for attendees at at this conference. That sounds fantastic. And again, you can go to liberty. Con dot com to see a list of speakers and more details about that. Remember if you register and you use reason as your discount code, you'll get forty percent off the registration price. Liberty context place to July seventeenth to twentieth in Washington DC, you know, let me close out guys by asking this question of wealth. You brought up Arthur Brooks and talking about reaching the heart as well as the as as well as the head, and I guess David and talking about pot. You're you know, you're trying to you're trying to reach the brain in a slightly different way, they too, but you know, is is that is that something that, you know, young people are particularly younger. Libertarians are particularly asking for because you know, it does seem like, you know, in it's not emotionalism by any stretch. But it is you know, the world seems to allow. Of younger people to be kind of stark, and and forboding place. Do we do we need to step up the way in which we say libertarian ideas, libertarian concepts policies systems reach more than you know, kind of an accountant balance sheet. Oh, yeah. I think that we this is very much the the mantra that we had Esa fell have is that in order to really highlight the value of liberty have to speak the language of the people you're talking to. And I don't just mean the actual language. I mean, speaking to what matters to them most because there are ways in which liberty can make a positive impact to anybody's life. But they have to see it beyond the kind of strictly individualistic worldview that some people have and some people really stick their guns too. And so I do think it's important for us to have that appeal where we approach things from perspective that seeks common ground that wants to have that conversation rather than simply patting ourselves on the back for being ideologically purist possible. And we put cat said has at at of Smith's citation. It is as good one, and yours, especially I would say. That at of supposed to say that man doesn't own wanna be loved, but also wants to be lovely. And it's very to we want to be good human beings. And it's not enough to to argue that minimum wage relieved to to like one point to increase of unemployment like nobody gets excited about that. Besides very few accounts as you mentioned, but it's also boats to tell the stories behind that to bring the data to live and to show what our policies actually do for the world's and McCloskey and other things that you have had he on the podcast as well. They make this point because it's really about the people that are affected by this that have no more -tunities that don't have to see this children on himself suffered this is so important, and I think young people specifically if you look at millennial generation Z they want to belong they want to be part of the group, and they want to be good and politics mostly about that it's about virtuous signaling. But if you if you combine the powerful arguments may you can demonstrate how much Essex. Liberal policies can bring about a more just flee a more specifically. Plus, also, like having them understand the ideas and give them a community of people who cool, weather jackets like you Nick who who understands off that. But who all nice human beings with who? With whom you would love to have a beer with. That's that's I think will be the solution that ought to make our ideas popula. Well, you know, what we're going to leave it there. That's a nice summary. We have been talking with David Clement. He is the director of external relations at students for liberty as well as the CEO of students for liberty will fund lar and we've been talking about the students for Liberty's annual conference. That's held January seventeenth through twentieth. In washington. DC liberty con- you can go to liberty conduct com to register for it put in reason as a discount code and you'll get forty percent off which pretty good, David and wolf thank you so much for talking. Thank you very much. Thank you. This has been the reason podcasts, and I've been your host Nicolette Spey. Please subscribe to us at apple at Google. Spotify had reason wherever you go. Thank you for listening.

Liberty Donald Trump David Clement United States president Europe Trump washington FCC Nicolette Spey Spotify apple Barack Obama reason magazine director Esa Google Steve Forbes William Weld Harvard
311: Shrinkage Edition

The Scathing Atheist

1:00:30 hr | 1 year ago

311: Shrinkage Edition

"The morning by the time. I finish the Senate this podcast will already have started using words like fuck. This week's episode of the skating atheist is brought to you by hymns. And by the monarchy of his majesty ally, the first and alternative government that has shut down zero times this year just putting out there. Monarchy managed, he he led I and now the scathing atheist. Hi, this is Kenny Weiland, and I got a seven day Facebook banned for quote, unquote, hate speech, because I posted a comment that said we did in fact evolve from filthy monkey man what the fuck. It's thursday. It's January thirty first and have. What really what sorry? Milan. Bosnich he then right? And for Martha Stewart's New Jersey Cincinnati swing state and good husband Georgia this scathing in this week's episode adoption agencies won't dust off their no dogs. No. I resigned justify time. Trump holds a beer for Karen Pence during their feckless contests tooth religion will finally find a way to cheat death. But I the diatribe. The urban dictionary defines shrinkage as quote what happens to a man's penis and cold water often result of cold showers, swimming, pools, or the ocean, very embarrassing and quote and to be clear. That's a terrible definition. First of all it can happen to anybody's penis doesn't have to be a man. Secondly, it doesn't actually tell you. What happens to said penis in cold water that being said, my penis came of age in the days before the urban dictionary. So even that lackluster definition would have been welcome to newly Pugh Bessant Noah see like many penis owners. I had to learn about shrinkage the hard way, I was at a friend's house in Michigan, and they had a pool. Insure. Sure, it was too cold the ghost women, but it's Michigan. It's always too cold to go swimming. So we went swimming. Anyway, after I ducked into the garage to change out of my trunks. I was shocked to find that. My dick had somehow Benjamin buttoned itself back to adolescence. And my friends little brother who is also changing at the time must have noticed. Horrified expression and followed my gaze because the second. Later. He said shouldn't it be bigger than that to which I answered in frenzied desperation? It is now my penis did return soon after so the existential dread lesson, but it didn't go away after all I was dealing with a data set a one here. So it didn't occur to me to blame it on the cold or the pool or any other specific event of the day. So for all I knew this same thing might happen again at any time, perhaps I had some weird fluctuating penis disorder. Maybe I was in reverse puberty. What if it happened again when I was showering after gym class or worse yet when I finally got that lauded opportunity to be bare naked with the girl. But of course, we didn't talk about Dick's back. Then dick problems where your own problems in genitals. Don't come with instruction manuals. Now. Maybe some of you were fortunate enough to have the kind of dad you could come to say, hey, somewheres going on with my deck. What's up with this? But I was not one of those guys. My dad tried to give my brother on me the birds in the bees talk. And after he left we were openly wondering how we were born if that's all he knew about sex, right? Like to hear him. Awkwardly stumble. His way through it uniform that were actual birds and bees involves so the case of the incredible shrinking penis was one that I'd have to investigate on my own. But again, this is the late eighties. I don't have the internet deterrent to and even if there was a book at the library called what's wrong with my penis a comprehensive guide it's not like I could risk leafing through it. Or checking it out what if somebody saw me? So for years, I just held this dread. In the back of my mind knowing that at any time, I might reach for my penis only to find it wasn't there. In fact, there wasn't a real crack in the case until may twelfth of nineteen ninety four when the eighty fifth episode of Seinfeld finally named the culprit now at this point. I was eighteen years old. I'd carried this dark secret with me for nearly a decade. The problem had never recurred while I had noticed a correlation between ambient temperature and the size of my penis. It never caused. Anything of the magnitude that I'd witnessed on that brisk Michigan afternoon. So when this infamous Seinfeld episode comes out, most people are just laughing along at the misfortunes of George Costanza, and I'm hailing Asai of relief that's been caught somewhere between my cock and my mouth for a third of my life. Of course, laughter and relief aren't the only reaction that that particular episode elicited because America's also filled with disturbing number of Pearl. Clutching prudes that were relegated to the fainting couch by television network having the audacity to era television show that acknowledged the normal functioning of genitals. Well, children might be watching. No less so evangelical mothers and Peres panicle father's flooded their phones in mailboxes with our apoplectic outrage and stirred up a comical amount of controversy over the mirrored knowledge -ment that a male TV character had a penis right because how dare a little terrified. No, I have some means of discovering that his dick was just behaving normally before he was old enough to vote. And those people will play the part of the villain in this story. Right. I mean, America's in a Christian nation in the sense that David Barton would have you believe, but damn if our sexual mores aren't still hamstrung by their Christian roots? Hell my entire career is built on the fact that America still nervously giggles a little when you say deck. We don't teach kids about their genitals and schools, we feel like girl nipples are not your then boy was we outlaw prostitution. We hide porn behind incognito windows. And look, I know how easy I had it here. Right. My primary consequence for this was treat my dick like of mysterious dagger gifted to me by the eagle of Zeus. But but think about how this fucking Victorian previous nece contributes to the culture where for example, sexual assault victims don't feel like they can come forward. Right. I mean, I yes, sometimes it's because they're afraid of the repercussions that somebody that has power over them or they're afraid that they won't be believed. But but sometimes it's also just because. They're not comfortable talking about sex, and our society has done everything in its power to keep them uncomfortable. We live in a country where men forego treatment on life threatening conditions because they're afraid to tell their doctor something's wrong with their balls. Right. Women often forego important parts of medical screenings because they're to embarrass and what do we get for this national prudery? I mean, I've listed a whole bunch of shit to put in the con- column, but I'm hard pressed to think of anything that sits on the other side, we're backwards giggling infants about sex as a matter of national policy, and we even have an army of letter writing boycotters in the wings ready to fight to keep it that way. And for what what's the end goal? I mean, it doesn't lead to less sex it just leads to worse sex. But even if it did white fuck with anybody want less sex, look as a society, we've secularized a lot in the last four hundred years, we've taken back our education, we've taken back our heavens. We've taken back our laws we've taken back our history, but it is. As long pastime for us to take back our junk that. Johny for headlines tonight or the two guys that live at the end of this sentence. He and right knee lie. Bosnich fellas. I got a great vocabulary for charity rose to open up with Jeremiah would like us to roast the SIS. All right. That's actually a great request from Jeremiah. This one really got me thinking, actually. And here's where I landed on the sys-, we're just a bunch of unoriginal coward site. That's what we are at some point in their lives without about our identity. Like who we really are as a person, and we counted our penises and stop thinking. Yeah. Because we're afraid of like figuring out pronouns or some bullshit is just lazy and boring where the fuck and worse. Yeah. Being cysts in twenty nineteen is like being the only one in your family who doesn't play an instrument put some effort in spice, some things up people and speak in a spice in it up. We're gonna take a quick break for word from this week sponsor hymns. Lulu dylan's. Single guy stuff. Singer guy stuff is my favorite stuff. Louis heat heat. Hey you lie. What's up? So our sponsor this week on the show is for him dot com. Oh, what's for his dot com? It's a one stop shop for hair loss, skin care and sexual wellness for men. So as thinking we could be in the ad. We could be like if you want to. Or a little more. For him dot com. Yeah. You don't have to do. Like, the weird Hindi stuff for him connects you with real doctors and medical grade solutions, they're great, right? Or as we'll say in the add a little honcker hulkah- for the shwim, swimming or Bunger gone on the thunder, dawn. Nope. None of that. So they provide generic equivalence to name brand prescriptions to help you keep your hair or slim, slam, Jim, Jim. Nope. Again, not not a phrase look alive for him is a fantastic way for people to get real medical care without the awkward doctor visits. And if they order now, our listeners get a trial month of hymns for just five dollars today right now while supplies last see website for full details is because hundreds if you went to the doctor or a pharmacy, much Nanno Fatima Seattle. Nope. Spanish is not better. Just people to go to four hymns dot com slash scathing. That's four hymns f o r. R H I M S dot com slash scathing for him dot com slash scathing. But when the top on the mop looks like it's starting to stop whatever it is. Don't continue Quim a chance down. Okay. Now. I think you just might be having a stroke. Are you ring probably having a stroke? Toast. Yes. Please. And now back to the headlines in our lead story tonight. Trump reminded us again this week that pandering to a religious base and being a big are functionally indistinct when he sought to shore up his flagging poll numbers by making non Christians in South Carolina. Unofficial underclass this came in the form of an exemption to anti-discrimination laws. The administration granted miracle hill ministries, this is that you don't have to give kids to Jews to get federal funding. Louis food to gay people won't let us Lynge them without us. Extra red take nevertheless to anything. Yeah. These. And these this let us prevent orphans from becoming Jewish. Did. That's where American. All right. That's what you're saying. And the president said, yes. Yeah. Right. No kidding there. Fucking way. So yeah, let's be super clear on where the law is going into this thing. Okay. So as of now, it's actually perfectly legal for adoption agencies to use prejudice as a metric for foster care, fitness somehow, but you can't receive federal funding if you do and as much as to say that this is a story tradition enshrined in the earliest days of the Republican actually is because of a regulation put in place in the waning days of the Obama administration. So this gave the Trump administration has chance to be big. It's a piece their base and on. We've yet another threat of Obama's legacy. So you can see why they jumped at the opportunity. Come on. At least let us spite the black. I find. Yes, black. That's part of the platform. It is make America. Great again. Spite the black guy, and it was really hadn't hadn't had. It's not an accurate to say that the unwielding of antidiscrimination legislature may be the legacy of the Trump administration. Everything has well that in the fucking scandals. Yeah. And look I it's worth emphasizing this we've known this was coming for a while. Now. Right. He's been holding onto this for a time when he needed some good big it chum- for his base so much. So that when the news stories of this past week, we're all about how he caved in on the shutdown and an culture, call it will push the I turned to loosen and said, I bet he grants that adoption agency in South Carolina there little big waiver this week. Right. So so keep in mind, if you're gay or trans are atheist or Jewish or black or female or Muslim or Hispanic the total pool of rights you enjoy his directly correlated with tunnel. Fuck and Trump's approval rating. Yeah. Well, at least they know it can't get lower. Why Zach good each of those people's about forty percent of person? And literally nothing can clearly it's nice Trump could announce Kristallnacht two point. Oh tomorrow. And you guys would be still holding strong at four tenths of a person's. That's comforting. All right side, come up. No, no. Okay. And as regal angle. Yes. This is more refresh. It right. Lynn johnson. Unofficial. Speaking of behalf of the department of health and human services, have quote, the government should not be in the business of forcing foster care providers to close their doors because of their faith religious freedom is a fundamental human right, and quote, not adding the foster agencies freedom that is the the religious freedom of the people who want to give a kid a loving home can go fuck. It's clearly I was talking about the other guys though being that bad a person. Nope. All right. I really can't. And in Brazilian reasons. Why news tonight regular listeners to the show? Thank you. Thank you regular listeners to the show. May remember the Alabama missionary who was killed last year by secluded tribe when he ignored government warnings and snuck himself on their island, exposing himself and the tribe to mortal danger. Well. Don't worry. Because this week. We learned that Christians. Haven't learned a fucking thing from that experience and a missionary from Maine now faces charges of genocide for contacting different isolated tribes in Brazil. Yeah. I would not like to be. This guy's fucking attorney. Right. I look facts of the case are white man, contacts and data tribe. How often is that not genocide in the long run? That's fair. That's yeah. So according to the missionary Steve Campbell. He was showing someone how to use GPS when he accidentally wandered into the village of the high may re-re tribe and started talking to them about Jesus all while exposing them to about five hundred years worth of germs. They don't have immunity to and very possibly killing fucking all of genocide. Right. Okay. But to be fair, right. Might dad try to use GPS one time, and he wound up in. An unexplored Brazilian jungle. And he was trying to get from Saint Louis Cleveland that's fair. And there were no natives there. But if there had been I'm sure he would talk to him about Jesus. I'm just saying the cover story is plausible. My dad, Honey, Honey, don't make a left. You're gonna literally run over that native guy. Computer, says make a left and sneezing his mouth. That's what the computer says. Not navigator. So the consequences of this visit are uncertain because at this time, the people who could like check on the tribe to make sure they didn't all die from the fuck and flew are similarly compromised than Campbell may face little to no consequences. If Brazilian courts by his excuse of this all being a terrible game of Marco polio. Gone wrong. Thank you. Measure hours of work. Thank you. Either way. This story is a fantastic reminder that if you bring disease to possibly the most vulnerable population to that disease in the world, you sure as fuck shouldn't be calling what you're doing saving, people know. All right next up in headlines. North Dakota state Representative Aaron McWilliams took some time away from drawing his mustache with sharpie this to harvest Michael in blacks face for his skin mask. But that only took a couple hours so McWilliams also went into the office and put together puzzle for new Bill. It would make it a legal requirement for public schools to offer. Bible class. And I'm also assuming there was a small at Denham in crayon in the margin. That's off the first minutes cancelled really small. Well, fortunately, the Bill got voted down. Meaning it was dumb even for North Dakota. And North Dakota people knew that, but that didn't stop Donald Trump from tweeting his ardent support for the idea. Okay. So he's just literally re tweeting are slash the Donald at this point. Right. Like if you told me at this point Donald Trump's biggest goal as president was read at golden height. Get it. All right. Okay. But I just I I should be the one of the points this out here if you do it right bible classes in atheism factory, right? Like teaching certificate and a move to North Dakota away from dissolving this controversy at any moment if it gets bad enough. So true. So regardless of the fact that this building pass North Dakota needs to leave. In related news. According to a new Bill proposed by podcast Representative. Then right. We're reverse annexing. The dakota. Shit over you guys fucking deal with it. We're bringing on Puerto Rico in Washington DC as full states, two senators each that how we're doing that. Because as it currently stands taxpayer money is paying the salary of people like Aaron McWilliams, and that is unacceptable. It is just the record. His Bill would have allowed the bible classes to teach that book as nonfiction and would have allowed those classes to replace a government or economics class as a graduation recall really yeses kid from North Dakota gets to his first day. A college out of state won't stop asking the are aware, they keep the stoning rock. What I guess? Yeah. This guy benefits from less education on good governance, though. So Trump heard one single piece of news that didn't involve his campaign team getting arrested by seal team six. And he started making loud noises pointing as much as you could. And then he stole his phone from the teacher's desk before the semester was over and tweeted the following in support of McWilliams and his proposed Bill quote, numerous states, introducing bible literacy classes to learn about I Corinthians. I guess all right exactly giving students the option of studying the bible. Instead of government or economics that might teach you about why trade wars are stupid and white treason is bad. So yeah. Makes perfect sense. And here's the end of that tweet bible class starting to make a turn back. Chris Mark great and quote Hearn back. You know, I'd call this shameless pandering if it didn't work so well like like, it's not a bad magic. Trick of every time. I pretend to throw a ball for my dog. She falls for. Me you I after a bad gag doing balls in cops for maj. There's a visual for you, the sad. All those little bradey. Now is a rap. Where's my thumb? Where's my thumb? Another side your dog. During a recent interview on Fox News Aaron McWilliams was trying to defend his Bill nothing about defending his mustache. So about the Bill he argued that our lack of a law that makes bible classes mandatory is forcing the religion of secularism on students. Just like, you know, the current science curriculum is forcing the religions of heliocentric. Som and OBE late spheroid ISM right of sign Lee. Someone says something. And regardless of getting voted down this time bills like this are popping up constantly, including something similar in West Virginia. While I was reading. While I was reading this one. And either way this is apparently exactly the kind of thinking that resonates with the goddamn leader of the free world, everyone go out and buy some goddamn stamps. Right. The FOX okay, everybody, twenty minutes of teeth gritting practice a day. Minimum. You hear me? Primaries are looking Menem grit and vote for whoever grin and both. I'm voting for Tulsi Gabbard right now. Oh, four grown adultery your mind about whether gay people are people. Yeah. I pulled a lever. I did it. And then maybe will help news tonight. You know, we don't talk a hell of a lot about parliamentary procedure in the house committee on natural resources on this show. And believe you me, we hear about it in the comments as you all know, this subject is of interest to a wide swath of the US population. Otherwise, it would be physically impossible for anyone to freak. The fuck out win said committee moved to strike the words so help you God from the mandatory recite tation for witnesses appearing before them. Some nerd showed up at that committee. And he's like, hey, cool. Yeah. Natural resource. Many. I'm a scientist, maybe the dune model for water allocation is not. Ideal. So help me Spinoza deity where Burnham Ravel. Yeah. Raking member rogue Rehovot who runs the now, democratically. Komo controls committee proposed the change on Wednesday, which would Ohka this is depressing which would likely represent the largest concession to nonreligious America's made by the federal government in my lifetime. Right. Or at least it would be out of the top ten list. The movement is strong. Look the fact that fucking joke Christian has never heard of this committee and wouldn't be able to pick it swearing in oath out of a list of shampoo ingredients. Didn't stop them from freaking the fuck out. Lather rinse repeat? So help me fucking God. I just love Christians or the mendonca's Fletcher of freak is our I agree with the. Earthy? So. There aren't going effort to prevent no step towards equality as too insignificant to oppose Fox News made this a major topic of interest during the most significant scandal in the history of the US presidency arbiter of moral virtue. Liz Cheney about of the network to say, the Democrats, quote, really have become the party of Karl Marx, and quote, except for you know, the communism Marxism. I would bet literally anything she thinks. It's the guy with the cigar. Absolutely. And in fake Theus news tonight. You know, as we approached the final chapter of a case for Christ. We've ask ourselves and others is this really the best Christians have. And we were reminded again this week that the answer to that is a resounding. Yes. Yeah. All I got in the mail from my born again cousin since he sent me that copy of a case for Christ was a rubber chicken with a posted. That said I came first. Creationism or a really good. Fuck tip bad evangelism. Yeah. Absolutely. So here's the story. According to a fund raising Email from the apologetic ministry, stand to reason pass along to him at meta the friendliest blog this week a Christian bible camp brought in a fake atheist all asked week so campers like beat the crap out of him in a stage. All. She's so mad Powell is at trendsetter in case, you had too many reasons to live in case, you were just thinking, you know, what I have is a lot of reasons there's a minus one for you. They brought in the suicidal me. But. The kids you stumped him. All right. So here's the quote from the Email again, this is Christians telling the story, quote, Nick, even staged as stump the eighth event to conclude the five day camp. He brought an atheist really a by Ola student and STR listener and the kids peppered him with questions with many of them asking some amazing follow up questions, even pointing out his inconsistencies. I was a bit nervous naked mid. I wasn't sure anyone would rise to the occasion. But when the time came after a week of training that kids were armed and ready and quotes, she's what is that? Look like writings the most we had. No, I'm trying to imagine the rocky montage if he like knew in advance that Apollo was taken a dive in the third at least a music. Boy lease fucking. He's scrambling eggs is cutting flights the meat. Chrissy gets run around a little pen picking up rubber chicken. Easy. So given the nature of this story. I think the solution is obvious stand to reason and this camp needs some real atheist volunteer, and we'll be damned if we are the men for the job. So we made a quick stop to a local Christian day camp. And would like to submit the following audio as our on dishing Morgan hit it. Which is why you have been asked a question hard enough to fuck. Your mother within your miserable sheltered Nazi youth mirror of a God damn life. Where the bathroom was. So how do you respond to the Kalaam cosmological argue fat? What I respond by pointing out that you as as a person fat. You are a fatty vet fat fat. Oh, I don't think you're supposed to fat. That fat. Got that. Next question. You brace face metal mouth never mind. He's fat too. Wasn't there? A third guy with you. Yeah. He found the water slide. You guys are missing. It. You're missing it. There's no line is a water slide. No lot. You guys. I'm a Christian. All right. Well, that does sound fun. So we're gonna take a quick break and hand things over to my lovely, wife, loosen. The horse which long if it's a legitimate rape. Right. Cooking. You find this week in? Okay. So here's the thing. I grew up in Georgia. I spent most of my life here. I get that. We're never going to have a world where people don't cling to stupid worldviews. But there's a compromise here. I'm sure just because your world view is stupid. That doesn't mean is there reconcile -able with smart? Let me give you a great example out of her Jinya so Virginia's on the brink of becoming the thirty eighth state to ratify the equal rights amendment. And if you're anything like me when you hear about states ratifying, the it's like hearing about some one hit wonder from your childhood that still torn, but it's still out there chugging along with its refrain of. I think I can't I think I can. But unfortunately, stupid questions think it can't inter member of the Virginia house of delegates since stupid Christian Margaret ransom. She's the chair of the subcommittee in charge of deciding whether the ER a will go to a full vote, and she cast the deciding vote that kills it. Why? Well, she. I'd be happy to tell you speaking defense of her vote. She explained, quote, I don't need words on a piece of paper. God made us all equal and quote now not fucking stupid, just objectively. But a stupid path can still get you there. Right. Like, you could say God made us all equal in here. I am firming his work with this legislation. I mean, it's not like you guys have an issue with legislating stuff that got ready dead. Right. But no, somehow you're always lands on the side of misogyny and for a quick reminder on why this can be deadly. We turn to Vatican City where nothing is too stupid to be nonlethal. They decided on the new policy a couple of weeks ago with regards to his direct Amies. It turns out that God only allows those of women can prove to his earthly stand-ins that pregnancy would be life threatening. Or if they can't get pregnant to begin with, of course in a sane world. This would only matter if you are Catholic that took this shit seriously. But we don't live insane world. And in the world, we do live in Catholic zone. One out of every six of our hospitals, and they're setting binding medical policy by leering into the energy of sacrificed goats, and here's the Vatican acting like I've got no right to be pissed because the policy has an exemption for women who can prove a pregnancy would be life threatening. But what about women who can't prove it? And what about women who? Sincerely, believe that you can go fuck yourself. There's almost no question. This policy will cost lives. And the only thing that will be gained by it is that some celebrate men and child rapist will appease imaginary deity that seems way too quick to forgive the kid rapes. Anyway, I could keep going but the limit to these segments isn't the material. It's my blood pressure. So I'm going to go listen to some waterfalls or some shit and hand things back over to Noah he and Eli. Thank you loose cinde of headlines. According to a recent study or country is being run by garbage human being. I agree with they're not even smart enough to realize why their garbage human beings. The study was conducted by heath reading the news at literally any moment in the last two years, and according to the most recent data, the vice president of the United States is incapable of having the shadow of female human being his righteous body without his religious fundamentalist bigot wife in the room to help a sways his evil shadow Boehner. I. Or in headline form second lady. Karen Pence is a malignant seaward Catholic. Yeah. No, okay. And so is your husband. Oh, see I thought you were going to say cancer, but you are more specific than that. Yeah. Your regular way. We're yeah. So just in case you missed it. Karen Pence is an art teacher at a school called Emmanuel Christian school in Virginia where they expel students for having gay family members or for attending a same sex wedding. She's in for just generally acknowledging the existence of gay people. They also have an official policy of never hiring trans person. And if you think to yourself, why would that school be allowed to exist? Yeah. Great question. Great question, according to laws, they should not. But according to other laws, we're. We're all being Dick's about it. If we make Powell. Yep. You might also be thinking why is it propaganda? Daycare allowed to use the word school in their title. Again. Great question, they should not. It's a school the way Christian Science is science or the way. The Trump foundation was a foundation and not a wing of the KGB. Yeah. Right fun. Fact, you you can swap out the word presidency for foundation that Shokhin it works. Exactly the same. Exactly in case you her city. Sure. Gonna. Yup. Kill yourself over something vague. I just wanted to specify let's fix. Okay. Yeah. So regardless of everything I just mentioned about Emmanuel Christian school. The vice president is proud of his wife's place of work, and he believes all the recent criticism to be Christian persecution. He thinks hey, stopped working for a hate group equals Christian persecution. Yeah. And when it says that out loud, he doesn't hear the problem. Parents somehow impressive during recent interview. Mike Pence said it was deeply offensive to see major news outlets attacking Christian education. So first of all, no, it's not. Come on. But more importantly, nobody fuck about the word Christian at the beginning of the schools title is not like his wife gets a job at Iran junior high. Instead. Cool. Cool. That's propaganda daycare. I secular hate group. She's fine. Thanks, and we should point out that the criticism. He's talking about was hashtag expose Christian schools, which meant that Mike Pence. Our vice-president looked on Twitter and saw thousands and thousands of stories of abuse and horror and thought this is an attack on me. Yep. Me and mother the woman. I call mother who I also fuck. I'm the good guy. And in Todd's, not debt news tonight story Brooklyn judge has of fishery ruled that a dead guy was alive for three weeks longer than he was after his family food New York Presbyterian for declaring him brain dead or in layman's terms in dead. That's also a way of saying that by way, this is your best pun week by far into your tire life living. Marco polio. Can we revisit all right? Come on. Yeah. Going to the story. Yeah. I go. I go. I'm jewish. That's allowed louder. Don't correct me. That is true. You're anti Semite that guy that you throw. Thrown on may thirty first of twenty seventeen. However, since he and more importantly, his family are orthodox Jews. They insisted he not be declared dead until three weeks later when he stopped breathing. And when the doctor was like, hey, that's fucking students to decide how medicine they sued and this week they won eight to to decide just same judge next week is sentencing, a dentist and the defendant will be required to sneak into the plaintiffs house at night and put a shining silver dollar under. Right. So according to the court, this is a real quote because respondents did not take sufficient steps to reasonably accommodate than hard families concerns, including step set forth in their own written policy and practice. It was not proper for respondents to declare Mr. hard brain dead when they did. And quote translation, you being real pedants about what constitutes being alive and dead. You're hopping. Hop. Little you use. I'm adjudge. We're splitting hairs. Yeah. Okay. Do here. Guys, guys legal precedent now that a live and dead are subject to Riffa considerations exists. That's like I just feel like future historians, very well may converge on this. As the point where the dam broke up. So I'm confused though. Like now, an orthodox Jewish doctor can tell a family that they're dead father has three weeks to live. So the more you read into this thing, the more bizarre, the story becomes however, it does give me a business idea. Please. No. Bosnich and I'm heath in right or the harsh realities of death. Bring it down losing your loved ones. Just too much to handle right now. Why not consider our brand new religion? The church of denial is good into the tenants of the church of denial. Ism living are with us to work. Good and ready who matter what some fancy doctor says. Which means you don't have to let go. Ever. Remember that story read in high school rose for Emily. It's like that. But a religion. That's right. Just listen to this satisfied inherent my relationship with the life challenged women's rights opponent, Phyllis schlafly was causing tension in the workplace, but thanks to the church of denial ISM if no he'd complain about the smell. I can sue them the church of denial. Life's too short not to make it longer. And in trustee trombone news, according to a new Gallup poll American Catholics are less trusting of clergy members than ever before. Experts are speculating this is related to either the pope getting caught using the neighbor's wifi or the news that decades of news about sexually assaulting children was very much real and also very much tiny compared to the actual size of that crime. Like, whatever number you had in your head. It's that plus thousands and thousands more things and that was enough for a little over a third of the trusting Catholics to change their vote since last year. This is the largest drop in almost two decades and keep in mind this bowl doesn't count people who stopped being Catholics. Just people who are on some kind of weird twenty four strike system. Hatlin they hit it this year. It's unclear. Yes. So here's the breakdown from Gallup among practicing Catholics the trust level dropped from forty nine percent a year ago to not fucking zero. It didn't drop zero. The number is thirty one percent in this latest poll. So I guess the headline should actually be some American Catholics believed. Clergy. Are a trustworthy group. Still what the fuck. In a related story. According to a new he's poll a little over a third of trusting American Catholics learned how to count past won this year. Well, I'm actually shocked the number is still so high because I mean because what the fuck is a Catholic who doesn't find clergy trustworthy, rightly a fan of bland biscuits. How the hell is I don't trust what they're saying? I just voluntarily give them money a majority opinion in any demographic. People were into crackers and wine. I guess. I love big quiet rooms. Yeah. And by the way, according to another heath poll American Catholics have a really weird line in the sand. When it comes to sexual assault of children. How much is too much like where the fuck was that line? And the answer is shut the fuck up Catholic people who just now changed their vote. Your answer was going to be because now we know your line was somewhere in between thousands of kid, rapes and way more thousands of. And just for the record. We have about seventy million Catholic people in the US that means about twelve point five million people had their line in the sand about too many kid rapes in the medium thousands area. I wanna meet that guy. Look anyone is Asians going to have hundreds of kids, rapists, put thousands. That's on you. And one other ridiculous number that goes along with the poll is the total rate of Catholicism that we have in the US that number tends to float around the twenty to thirty percent area. And that's exactly where it continues floating. Now, the percentage of Americans who call themselves Catholic is holding steady somehow is like Donald Trump's approval rating if he fucked Barron. Got a bunch of raped Catholic going, well, at least who to help you. And what are the detail? Prosecutors have only come out and fishery asked Catholic leaders in a small handful of states if they're actively hiding pedophile, rapists, not sure how long it takes a lawyer to ask that question fifty times. But I did it superfast. Just now as test run started going really fast like protect you want to minimize the words in the question, if you're trying to get it as fast, it's just be like, rapists, rapists, raven. I was doing in like, thirty seconds. You're right through it. But regardless even at the pace, we're going we should be seeing every single Catholic person turning Protestant, and then turning Jewish and then turning atheist by the end of two thousand nineteen but I'm sure we won't oh, you fucking tease. I was having this brief fantasies about Joel teen money. Oh. Happy. So great and finally tonight in Gaby's news. We finally learn how to make gay babies this week, which is gonna save us. A lot of juice box lining cost in our secular goal of turning everyone in America into a gay transcriptionist with autism. I don't mind saying, oh, can I guess, no? I would like to know legally speaking you cannot. So it turns out it's way easier that we thought it don't need to sneak gay books into school, libraries or force their parents to bake gay cakes or develop subliminal gay love stories at Disney movies that only Kevin Swanson conc-, according to Catholic blogger, Richard. She Evans all you need to do is call unborn male fetuses, Princess, okay? If this is true. I have an amazing prank war for literally all the Chris. So yeah, I was also surprised by this. But he lays out the methodology of study here and of oneself reported double on blinded because the bird Bax challenges dangerous boys and girls in the article Evans identifies as having same sex attraction. But his celebrate so pantley Catholic God's okay with it relates the story of the tragically all the way gay Andre you see Andres dad wanted a daughter, so he referred to his wife's yet sexless fetus as her and use terms of endearment like Princess, which Evans's convinced is why Andrei loves the deck now, which is why it don't play Mozart for your kids. They come all German and how. Yeah. It's a good lesson allies. Parents played lots of NPR and a little bit intervention. I'm guessing a little. And my parents just played the white album, the whole time and drank a lot drank. All right. So. Assertion by appealing to the argument from you haven't bothered to prove I'm wrong yet. Because this is too stupid for you to have thought of saying, quote science cannot definitively. Tell us how much unborn children understand. But it is no that they feel pain and clearly since the mood of their mother and other loved ones, and quote as though the logical end of that observation is so it stands to recent that they understand the concept of masculine and feminine pronouns more than a year before they manage concepts like by and no and be Vesa logically change their sexual preference. I get it though. I've met a gay baby. And you're like that baby is fucking gay. The babies. Jordan Peterson's baby comes out, it's they them. Fuck. You guys read 'em. All right. So bottom line our lives. Just got a lot easier. There'll be a lot more money for fake moon landings with the budget that this frees up I believe China has dips. So with that to look forward to getting the headlines to a close heathy lie. Thanks as always nobles are Perfetti's. We come back. Heath will make fun of dogs love snowballs in August. Listener to use of scaling atheist. Do you worry that the guys are computer stimulated, and you won't be able to sleep until you've seen that they're real people? Well, good news because the guys are coming to ten Colorado for a live got up movies on March nine. They'll be breaking down one. That's been on the list since the show began the all too appropriate. Reformer madness. But that's all grab your platinum tickets for a chance to enjoy an all inclusive, dinner drinks and rift trek style of Ewing, the movie with the guys the night before or go full hog and get the platinum package, which includes platinum night and a VIP ticket to the show. That was a whole got up a movies live March night that the oriental theatre in Denver, Colorado. Buy your tickets, or we will die. With many of our listeners in the middle of a live action preview of the heat death of the universe. We figured now would be the perfect time to warm up with a little roast. Fortunately, we still have quite a few charitable rose to get through so ally. This I was for you, Neil, Nora car. Sorry, if I put your name gave us one hundred fifty bucks to roast his wife because apparently he hates having sex. Right. Ten dogs. There's gotta be less painful ways to kill yourself, buddy. What do you think in man? Okay. We'll your wife you send a picture. She is lovely. She looks like she's going to take off glasses and shake her hair out and one a heat sexual fantasy. And that is accurate. She looks like her mining Grainger married for money, and she's. Okay. And I'm going to go ahead. And assume that dog has a lot of money because you look like a mean cartoon of all the racist. Dude. So gay so keep it up. Yeah. No alley. Alec optical as we are that she's in that picture. Sorry. I feel like that throws was good. But it missed it missed. I'll try harder on this next one George would like us to roast him and his girlfriend. So a you guys look like the Fisher Price people grow up to be Survivalists. Offish? People went undercover for some eighties comedy hijinks or something maybe need to see the picture for this. She looks just kinda low definition. Like eight bit. Yeah. A photo for a news story about the first guy to marry a hologram. A manic pixel dream girl. George looks like he won her over by giving her a nice, easy riddle to cross the bridge that he got. All right. So he Andrew with like, a Roche res-, brother. Stephen a music snob. Who thinks the best albums are obscure punk rock that only sound good on vinyl. Great. Great. Yeah. So, hey, Steve just quick thing. That's not what snob means. That's stupid. You're refined musical palette only likes one four and five cords. Shelf chords in your head. You feel like you're a snob. That's stupid. Also, those bands only sound good on vinyl because nobody gives a fuck about apocalypse toilet since nineteen. Vinyl? Yes. It was better when you're gonna hear it less. That's great musical tastes. All right, gentlemen. Got a couple of specific requests for you here ally. Megan needs a roast for her ju-, preferably by hidden other ju yeah, the the number of times, you said ju just now kind of mandates my participation. Let's see Megan's ju looks like the Facebook profile for a guy who goes viral for being racist. All right. He's okay. Another dog what he got. Nope. Attractive listener. Okay. All right. Can I would have preferred a dog actually about you say that at the end of all your relationships, but I don't make the rules here. Okay. But you do though you did Trevor Trevor would like a Roach for his English major girlfriend autumn. Right. Lovely autumn. Looks like. An English major. She looks like the novel. She's been working on is super interesting before sex super-duper time, period. All right. No one for you that I know will be near and dear to your heart. Joshua would like a roast of cops who pose with. We'd busts. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Good. I've never understood that you don't see like SEC officers posing in front of giant piles of exploited black homeowners. I i've. Overcompensation thing. Right. Like, if you know what you do is negative useful. Like your whole job is to stop transactions that are consensual on both sides because people in the thirties were racist against a plant for sounding Mexican you have to own that shit. Right. It's like it's like that. I wanted to go to my room anyway of occupational justification. All right. So this next one is for all of us from Ted. He gave us two hundred and fifty bucks to roast our favorite member of the intellectual dark web dank your head. All right. I'm gonna go with the most American Canadian ever Jordan voters. Who looks like the world's most boring vampire? Sighted, meet him at a dinner party. And you're like what? Vampire, no fucking way. You gotta tell us about all these stories like you you've been alive for centuries, and you fuck these famous historical figures, and you got magical powers tell us about that stuff. And he'd be like heard you ranking the racist earlier, I wanna push back on your tongue. Fuck you damage magic nothing. You're the worst or so the beauty of being as non Elias. I am about the internet. Is it like Eli set along the link to who counts as a member of the intellectual dart way because he knew I wouldn't know. And I don't like three of those people are I I've heard of a couple of the other ones from other people hating them. Right. But I don't even know what I'm supposed to hate about. But okay, Ben Shapiro. Always looks like he just remembered that time seventeen years ago when he found out they had put out Kahal in that punch. Indeed. He does. Thank you said. This was for me. Thank you, so many great pickings on this list. Add love to do them. All but I'm gonna go with rush Limbaugh's favorite native informant and rape apologist, Christina Hoff Sommers. Oh, so much to go with I point out the doctor summers looks like her legacy empty shriveled and shameful. I could say that she looks like if all the mothers of all the rapists in the world got together to form voltron. But the best roast I can give her is the hell. She's living seat. Dr summers gets to watch the world leave behind her choice for the short dollar and watches her dying brand of pick me is replaced with me too. All right. Well, he got a little real so to wind things back up. It's time for you to make fun of dogs. Are you ready? So we got dogs too. Great dogs. Yeah. Android tried to listeners. Okay. Our friend dab would like you to roast both of her rescue dogs, Dharma and Sagan. Hi, Deb, Deb's the best. All right. And the dogs the best. Okay. So Dharma is a very large pit bull sharpei who thinks she's actually very small. Yeah. Every picture. We got looks like the canine equivalent of that fifteen year old kid is about to tackle his tiny, mom and start breastfeeding. Like in missionary position. Lap after that. You can't even see mom now. Let's ridiculous. That's that's Dharma and Sagan is the red headed stepchild of dogs playing. He's good at everything like I've played frisbee. He's better at throwing a frisbee than me. An amazing. So you hate him even more than a regular red headed stepchild. If Sagan was a kid in my middle school. I'd I'd be saying like, hey, Sagan nice shot in a pickup basketball game. But you know, what even better than being good at basketball? You don't real parents is the answer. A mom who birth me and continued wanting me the whole time. How? That's what's the best. Guys. Your got your money. Sagging urine, you're an orphan and. While we're here. We also got a donation from a dog named tika who had like a roast for his sister soba. Okay. So looks like a stuffed animal owned by an abusive child. Is not like like the kid tried to do the peanut butter thing. And so, but just sat there and pretended to be stuff that forever. That's what that's what it looks like all right ally. Last one for you Bradley would like a roast for his brother lane. Oh, Jesus talk about gimme lane. Look some guys can pull off long hair. And I am not just saying that because I'm sitting next to Noah, and he'll pinch me. But you look like weirdo. Yank Vic started taking Quayle, dude. On top of that on the pictures. Bradley sent you seem to managed every possible variation of terrible mustache in one human. I don't even know how you did it you have run the gamut from child pornographer to slightly older child pornographer. I don't know. I I think that was kind of mean like I mean lane was obviously born without a chin. Yeah. I don't know that we should make fun of him so much as donating to like a chin or something. What we're I can we arrange for some kind of cheek bone graft. You'll get cut from being extra in silence for being too offensive. All right. We're gonna let you finish this one off with a roast for mic for who. I believe is cardinal George Pell. Ah-ha? Wow. So what can I say cardinal Pell that has already been said other than not guilty? I mean, okay. He starts off like looking like a dick, Tracy villain. Got a CPA licence after the divorce to begin with, and then he rapes kids. Right. And then and then he covers up for kid rape all over his diocese. And then all over the world. His whole biography is like an exponential growth curve of bad traits. If we don't kill him now is gonna have to Kim it like trans dimensional Zena side by this time next year. Anyway, there's a lot more insults. Still the come. So we'll be back soon with more vulgarity for charity. Before we hit up a save point. I want to remind you to check the show notes for info on how to see us live in Denver and Marceca birthday coming up a couple of days before we go and the gift I want most of all is you paying to come see me kind of Fuxing up when I finished that sentence, doesn't it? Anyway, that's the blast move got for you tonight. But we've back ten thousand twenty two minutes with more can't wait that long be on the lookout for a brand new episode of our sisters show, the Daping seven eastern time on Monday on even newer episode of our sisters shows hot friend got off movies debut at seven eastern on Tuesday. In an even newer episode of our half sister show, citation new debut at noon eastern on Wednesday. Obviously, this show would be brand X if I neglected to Keith Henry who really had to move the sun the moon and the stars to be here today. I need to thank alive Bosnich who really only had to move ally Bosnich to be here today, but that can be difficult. I also wanna think the lovely loosened delusions who moved me to be here today, and I wanna thank Kenny Weiland for providing this week's Farnsworth go and for doing a little time for the team you seen Reservoir Dogs. Kenny, your Mr. blonde joke habit. You hear me we're going to take care you while you're on the inside just don't break. But most of all, of course, I wanna. Thank this week's best people. Richard Michaela Amos. Nathan Keith asked me, Joel drew and Stephen Richard Mikhailian Amos or so sexy wandering lusts after them. Nathan Keith an SME who's IQ have more wants zeros than this MP three. And Joel Drouin Stephen whose Cox were so intimidating that when they get Nicole pool. The water shrinks together these nine naughty naughty nonbelievers nudged our network near a nice this week by giving us money. Not everybody has the alliterative qualities that takes give us money. But if you think you're up to the challenging make a donation at patriotair dot com slash skating, Agius whereby you'll early access to an extent at every version of every episode or you can make a one time donation by clicking on the donate button on the right side of the homepage. Scathing dot com legal services for this podcast provide about office, peon rhetorics, Tim Robertson handles. Our social media are audio engineers Morten Clark. And he wrote all the music was used in this episode, and it was used with permission. If you have questions coming death wretched, find all the content phone the contact page at scathing dot com. All right. Let's do this. So the tuner Neo Diener nail. This is short center. But you know, what he means that he gets? The preceding podcast was production of puzzling. Thunderstorm, LLC copyright, twenty nineteen all rights reserved.

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Meghan Daum: "Nuance: A Love Story"

Medium Playback

1:00:35 hr | 1 year ago

Meghan Daum: "Nuance: A Love Story"

"Every day on your medium homepage, we deliver big bold ideas and articles personalized to the topics that you care about. Most, you can always read a few stories each month for free, but members get access to everything. Medium has to offer like our monthly magazine featuring world famous thinkers, diverse stories from raiders across the world syndicated selections from publishers like the Atlantic and the New York Times and audio versions from our most popular posts, check it out today for just five dollars a month at medium dot com. Slash membership. Today's episode features, a recent story that are members particularly loved. We hope you enjoy. Welcome to play back where we bring some of the best features on medium to life, and we uncover the story behind the story straight from the authors who wrote them. I'm your host maneuvers summar ODI and today I am so excited to talk to Meghan Dom. She's author longtime op Ed columnist for that law scandalous times, and she's going to read us her fascinating story about her love affair with the intellectual dark web for as she calls it free speech you to be is actually called nuance a love story, and it was featured in mediums monthly magazine, and Megan is actually here with me. Hi, Megan, high Menashe. Welcome playback. Great to be here. Okay, so your story nuance, a love story. You do something very unusual. You expertly intertwined. Your personal story of the slow break. Down of your relationship with your husband at the time, but you interplay that with how the divisive political climate has borne out on social media over the last couple years, when did you realize that there was a parallel between the break-up of your marriage and politics? That was a real epiphany, and it came to me literally earlier this spring, I was walking down the street and there was a late snowstorm early spring snowstorm about to start. And I had been thinking about all of these things. These political issues, the divisiveness, the quote, unquote, intellectual dark web for several years, but I had not wanted to write about it or at least I hadn't wanted to write about it in a very obvious way because lots of people were saying the sort of obvious things about it. And so I had held off and all of a sudden it dawned on me that the way to talk about this stuff was too. Do it within the framework of a personal story. And you know, having written personal stories for twenty five years. I just sort of knew instinctively that now is the time to write it. Okay. So let's listen to it. Here's Meghan Dom reading her piece nuance. A love story. This is the story of the past three years of my life. It's a romance in a way, but it's also a break-up story. It begins sometime in two thousand fifteen a year during which my life was coming apart in various ways. In addition to the unraveling of my marriage, I began to send some fraying around the edges of my social circles both online and in real life, people who'd once shared a common set of sumptious about the realities of the world and the nature of human behavior. Now seemed oddly divided questions that had once been treated as complicated inquiries requiring scrutiny and nuance were increasingly being reduced to moral absolutes. Especially as far as liberal types were concerned. I, I noticed it with issues pertaining to feminism. If for instance, you suggested that reason wondered aloud. If the gender wage gap might not be due entirely to stem sexism, but also. Oh, to women's interests, choices and the inconvenient, but unavoidable realities of pregnancy and young child rearing you were likely to be labeled an internalized misogynist. The same dynamic played out in other spheres of public debate, of course, gun control immigration and due process in campus sexual assault cases to name a few. If you more or less towed the requisite liberal line. But thought there were some gray areas that warranted consideration you were quite possibly on the wrong side of history. If you called for nuance, you were part of the problem. That was three years ago this summer amid a roiling debate largely taking place on Twitter, but roiling nonetheless between what you might call the civility camp versus the outrage camp of the Trump resistance nuance became kind of fighting word for civility types who fear that displays of indiscriminate an unfettered rage against the Trump regime are as strategically misguided as they are viscerally satisfying nuance is what sorely lacking. Some of my best friends were such narrators on Facebook and Twitter, their post rang out with equal measure of passion and paranoia for all their sophistication and critical thinking skills. These were people with advanced degrees and New Yorker subscriptions more than a few of them were coming across as disturbingly close minded and credulous in the outrage camp. The call for nuance is sometimes seen as a form of tone. Policing a dog whistle for centrist and right leaning scold who's privileged blinds them to the severity of the crisis before them. Both sides have a point naturally. This state of cultural cognitive dissonance. There's a striking resemblance to the developing situation inside my brain over the past few years, a situation best described as a maddening toggle between what I felt versus what I thought I was supposed to feel on both counts. It's been an uncomfortable sensation. What I thought I was supposed to feel probably has its roots in one of my earliest political memories, seeing the devastation on my parents faces as Walter Cronkite showed in electoral map that blazed red with Ronald Reagan's, landslide win in the nineteen eighty presidential election. My parents pro union liberals who've been raised in coal country, and later shaped by the values and sensibilities of academia weren't especially political, but they'd instilled in me the standard set of middle-class, Democratic Party values. Public safety nets were forced for good. Corporate greed was a real threat. Civil and reproductive rights paramount. I carried these valleys with me to college where they blended right in with just about everyone else's. When George H W Bush was elected president in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight students wrote moving to Canada in thick magic marker on their bedsheets and hung them from dorm windows in nineteen eighty nine. I and dozens of my classmates boarded buses to Washington DC to March in an abortion rights. Rally organized by now. There were hundreds of thousands of marchers that day, and I remember how good it felt to stand with my friends in our matching college sweatshirts shouting, never again, and my body, my choice. I did not fully board the bus of the first wave of political correctness in the early nineteen nineties. When the conversation about the campus date rape epidemic rolled around, I was glad to see the date rape was finally being recognized as a real thing, but I was a bit peevish about the word epidemic, which seemed to me to demand and expanded definition of rape that felt potentially counterproductive. This peevish nece would crop up again here and there over the years. Beginning in two thousand five. I spent more than a decade as an opinion column for the Los Angeles Times writing about culture and social politics and my pension for devil's advocacy. Hey, why shouldn't Sarah Palin coal herself. Feminist brought angry letters from liberals as well as from conservatives for the most part, though I spent my adulthood fairly aligned with the kinds of people onto college with that. We were all on the same team was simply given. We all read the New York Times, listen to NPR and voted for Democrats. We would all go to the mat for women's rights gay rights or pretty much any rights other than gun rights. We lived for the most part in big cities and blue states. When Barack Obama came into the picture, we loved him with the delirium of crushed out teenagers, perhaps less for his policies than for being the kind of person who also listened to NPR. We loved Hillary Clinton with the fraught resignation of daughters love for her mother. We loved her even if we didn't like her. We were liberals after all. We were family. Maybe it was the impending loss of Obama that caused us to begin this unconscious process detachment from one another as well as from him. Maybe we knew we've never been loved like this again. So we started looking for problems picking fights. Biting the satisfaction that apparently been hiding deep inside our contentment. It wasn't hard since injustices, large and small. We're in the foreground of our daily lives like never before cell phone cameras. Now, ubiquitous left, no public altercation. Undocumented screen shots left no ill, advised text or tweet permanently forgotten the social Justice warrior. A moniker used mainly by detractors and often reduced to s j w emerged on the scene with the self proclaimed utopian vision that sometime sounded a lot like Thawra -tarian ISM social media. The narcotic, we were already addicted to now did double. Duty as an outrage, amplifier and disseminator of half truths spoken by well-meaning, but unreliable narrators, some of my best friends were such narrators on Facebook and Twitter, their post rang out with equal measure of passion and paranoia for other sophistication and critical thinking skills. These were people with advanced degrees, New Yorker subscriptions more than a few of them were coming across as disturbingly, close minded and credulous a link to dubiously sourced article about sex trafficking in the United States with set off a Cascadia Facebook comments about how American women are hardly any better off than women in the developing world. A comment expressing even mild sympathy for the obvious psychological troubles of someone like Rachel Dole's, all the white woman who was publicly shamed for pretending to be black would be smackdown as an example of unchecked white privilege or even unabashed white supremacy words like man. Splaying and gas lighting were suddenly in heavy rotation. Often invoked with such a less dissident as to render them nearly meaningless. Similarly, the term woke which originated in black activism was now being used to draw a bright line between those on the right side of things. And those on the wrong side of things, the parlance of woke news was being used online so frequently that began to strike me as disingenuous even a little desperate. After all, these weren't just beam crazed youngsters, flouting their newly minted critical studies degrees. Many were in their forties and fifties posting photos from their kids, middle school graduations along with rage filled rants about toxic masculinity. One minute they were asking for recommendations for gastroenterologist in their area. The next they were adopting the vocabulary of tumbler typing things like I just can't with this. And this is some fucked patriarchal. Bullshit 'em right. Granted, I was primed to be maximally gnawed since after decades of paying little attention to the interests of the generations, followed my own. I was suddenly consumed by the political activism the very vocal minority of younger people, mostly millennials. The values of this minority were more or less in sync with my own still. There was something about the tone in which they espoused them. They're very inflection that made me feel like I was simultaneously being sent to my room. My mother and banned from a lunch table by the mean girls. To my ears. Every utterance was a skull d- every reaction in IRO every policy idea, no matter how impractical shot through with disgusted disbelief that no one had thought of it before problematic that all purpose recrimination for any person place or thing, deemed insufficiently inclusive of all people places and things was more weapon than word. Another upper word was exhausted. So intractable and unreasonable were their opponents that it was exhausting to have to keep repeating themselves. So persecuted were those whose identities veered outside the margins of white hetero, normative capitalist society that daily life itself amounted to a series of violences in which they were forced to explain their humanity. My very smart friends seem to be lapping this up, enter my new friends. I found them on YouTube. Actually, I found them I through blogging heads TV a site where scholars and journalists of all idiological stripes carried on webcam conversations about the issues of the day. I was a particular fan of the monthly dialogue between the economist and professor Glenn Lowry, and the linguist and literature professor John mcwhirter. Calling themselves the black guys on blogging heads. They talked about racial politics, with more candor, and a ham nuance than I probably ever heard in my life. The even dared to do with view in the left leaning chatter ATI or willing to do hold the writer Tana, he's coats up to scrutiny often. It wasn't so much the author himself that they griped about, but the wrote self congratulatory, reverence displayed by coats, white fans, this reverence was it self racist. Mcwhirter pointed out the implication if I was reading him correctly, it was that Coates was good, but not a God and the need for white people to elevate him to the level of deity constituted a kind of soft bigotry, which is noisy aiding as it is unintended. Mcquarters said every time I walk around this fucking city, and I deal with a lot of intellectual whites. I work on a campus full. Them, and it's become a kind of symbol of being of that class that when you're talking to especially a black call me thinking person that you were supposed to do, you're Jen genuflection two coats and it's a kind of a signal that white people give somebody like mitt, and it's not only people with PHD's the ideas that you are supposed to believe in that God and every time that happens and you talk about how racism is something that we suppose waiting counter every time we walk out into the street, I would definitely say at least once a week I have to deal with this some very earnest white person who's assuming that I think of that person's writing as scripture or frankly as brilliantly reasoned. And I feel personally insulted because to me, they are letting pass. Hate saying this about something or somebody, but I guess I have to get hit by a bus tomorrow they are letting pass as genius, something which they never would. If it was not a black person doing it and when they do it, I feel like I'm in that scene and anti hall with Woody Allen where he's thinking that the people around the table, the gentiles around the table or seeing him as this pushcart Jewish person with. Pay in everything. I feel like this person and we're talking about some enlightened and often famous people that person when they do that genuflection they're seeing me as some thick lipped Stepien fetch at drawl in person in overalls. And I think is that other judging me are they telling me that I'm so wonderful because they think that it's a good thing because I'm Brown, it makes me sick. It has nothing to do with Tana hoc- coach as an individual. I don't think he's done anything wrong Mayan Dighton is against the people who are elevating him out of what can only be called bigotry. I'm done. This delighted me. I learned a lot from reading coats. But with this reading often came the nagging sense that I wasn't supposed to engage with the ideas as much as absorb them unquestioningly. He wasn't just an author, but the unofficial Potter familias of the woke assent. Importantly, it was not coats making this appeal, but the cultural gatekeepers surrounding him privately mcwhirter was making a more eloquent version of a point. I'd been trying to make for months to anyone who'd listen, which was nobody from the black guys on blogging heads. YouTube algorithms bouncing along path of similarly, unapologetic thought criminals, the neuroscientist Sam Harris and his waking up podcast, Christina Hoff Sommers aka the factual feminist. The comedian turned YouTube interviewer. Dave Rubin, the counter extremist activists, Machida Woz, and a contentious, and then little known Canadian psychology professor named Jordan Peterson who railed against authoritarianism on both the left and right, but reserve special disdain for Postmodernism which he believed was eroding rational thought on campuses and elsewhere. Some of them like summers and Peterson made their own videos which. They turned into their main platform and chief export. Sometimes monetize ING them via subscription platforms like patriotic others tracked down in crude footage from university lectures or panel discussions with names like is identity politics, eating itself. Many also reliably showed up on real time with Bill Maher, and curiously on the podcast of Joe Rogan, a comedian and mixed martial arts commentator whose guest roster of athletes entertainers and conspiracy theorists occasionally expanded to include people like astrophysicist, Neil degrasse Tyson, three years later, a handful of this Qadri would be introduced to the greater public under the dubious banner, the intellectual dark web. An alliance of heretics is making an end run around the mainstream conversation, went to New York Times article in the spring of two thousand eighteen. Should we be listening and accompanying photo spread, showed the subjects posing the finally in. Rain storms and shadowy forests within days. Countless news outlets had picked up the story, and it seemed everyone had something to say about whether the members of this alliance had any credibility as either heretics or intellectuals. There was little if any consensus descriptors ranged from renegades to Griff tres two white nationalist trolls. But the fervor around the whole subject suggested that a nerve had been touched, possibly even a major artery tapped for me. It was as if the obscure indie rock band I've been following for years suddenly hit it big. I was excited, but also a little worried for starters, intellectual dark web was a terrible name. It reeked of scifi history, onyx, and moreover was to easily confused with that cyber-crooks choked sub basement of the internet known as the regular dark web, not that it was any better than the name. I privately assigned to them free. Speech, YouTube, what will I do tonight? Make some popcorn and hang out with free speech. YouTube, I didn't agree with my free speech. YouTube friends on every point far from it still I was invigorated even electrified by their willingness to ask if not ever. Totally answer questions that had lately been deemed too messy somehow to deal with in mainstream public discourse. Are we using multi-culturalism as a cover for tolerating human rights abuses and other countries? Are there biological differences in male and female brains that help explain the gender wage gap? Can we use a balloon psychology to help explain why women in the aggregate are less likely to pursue careers, like engineering and computer coding. These questions have mostly been rendered off limits in serious public discussions, evolutionary psychology, which is all too easily oversimplified and repurpose into any number of shaky suppositions about social hierarchies is a particular bugaboo since my YouTube friends were asking than the wes- many turned into defacto speech rights champions. And since the term speech rates now had a trip wire affect for many liberals and that it was often associated with defenses of hollow provocateurs like Milo Yiannopoulos. Many of my YouTube friends were finding themselves cast out of the political left. Not that some of them like Harrison summers weren't getting plenty of attention from asking these questions or even as an Peterson's case poised to get rich. I just got the sense that many of them had come to their positions after feeling just as out of step with their peers. As I did their company with one another, even in the form of panels and webcam. Chats manage to keep me company. Looking back to two thousand fifteen. I'd say my burgeoning relationship with free speech. YouTube probably had to do with the end of another relationship. I'd left my home in Los Angeles and was living temporarily in New York teaching writing to graduate students. My husband and I were experimenting with what we had thus far managed to avoid calling a trial separation. Remember hunkering down in the small Brooklyn apartment. I'd sublet for the semester. Anticipating snowstorm billed as a snow, Pokka lips and watching something like six hours of conversations on blogging is for some reason, the storm had me terrified. I'd been in California so long that the thought of being blinded by power outage caused by already blinding snow seemed beyond my coping abilities, but for some reason, the Andrine dialogues had a soothing effect. I lay on the couch and nipped at them all night as they were brandy. Finally drifting asleep to the lullaby of conversations. Tagged Ferguson is not Palestine, but is it similar and a red heads underrepresented in congress, the storm turned out to be not nearly as Pakalitha as advertised and the power remained on, but in the ensuing months, whatever embers remained of my marriage manage to smolder out my husband and I had spent so much time over the years. Watching premium cable shows that now felt sad and wrong to watch television alone. Instead, I watched YouTube and for a few months, read everything I could about anti rape activism on college campuses. I was all in favor of the new dialogue around issues of sexual consent. I was also happy to keep my nose out of it. Having accepted that as a generation xer, I would never understand the digital revolutions collateral affect on Molyneaux sexual behavior. Nonetheless, I became consumed by the case of MS. Okay. Poets, the Columbia student who was carrying her mattress around in protest of the administration's exoneration of fellow students. She said, had raped her though. I was obviously in no position to know for sure what had happened, no one, but the two people involves are ever in any such position. The sudden national obsession with female endangerment on college campuses struck me much the same way it had in the early nineteen. Ninety s well intended, but ultimately infanta Leising to women and essentially unfinished. Many people. I knew apparently saw differently. They posted alarmist articles on Facebook and formed comment threads that were like a chorus of outrage. Anxiety. I've never been one for social media feuds. So when I saw them recite statistics that I knew to be misleading one in four will be raped. I just sat there in fumed when I saw someone say, she wondered now if she should even send her daughter to college, I wanted to throw things even more than that. I wanted to put myself in time machine. Mike crumbling marriage had made me something close to inconsolable and my only wish was to go to sleep and fast forward my life to some indeterminate point in the future when I'd feel better. By spring, my husband and I had decided to divorce there was no tangible grievance. Just a baseline disatisfaction with our lives together that no amount of hard work or therapy or cable drama binges could allay. We were in our forties. We had dogs, but no children, there was no reason other than the raw pain of banality not to cut our losses and move on. Return to Los Angeles after my semester in New York, and we continue to live together as we prepared to put our house on the market. We were amicable to almost absurd degree so much so that I decided I'd move back to New York at least for a year. So less we remain emotionally entwined, never at a loss for conversation. We continue to talk often the animated passionate probing way we'd been doing since our first date until the minute I got in the car and drove east at the time I assumed the extreme amicability of our divorce made us lucky, whereas other couples fought bitterly. We just sat next to each other and cried. Whereas other couples changed locks on doors and let legal fees burn through their savings. We graciously divided up our things and did what we could do to soften the others landing. It was only later that I saw the ways in which this accord made things so much worse by peeling off the pervert. Band-aid at an anguishing pace. It was only when we stop talking so much that I realized how our conversation had been like platelets in my very bloodstream. Despite our fundamental incompatibility my husband and I reach other best friend and preferred conversation partner even at our lowest points even when scarcely day passed in which we did not fight. The was also not a day that we didn't have something interesting to discuss from the very beginning. It had been cleared that we saw the world in uncannily similar ways, and sometimes in ways different from our sprawling tribe of supposedly like-minded liberals, we shared an allergy to hyperbole, boredom with wrote expressions of political correctness, a guilty affinity for jokes, best suited to add a less boys. We hated virtue signaling before there was even a name for it. We may not have been on the same page when it came to life, but somehow we were on the same way. Link. We were for lack of a better term, intellectual allies in late summer of two thousand fifteen. We sold the house, and I took one of the dogs and move to New York City. My plan was to be there temporarily maybe a year or two, possibly three. Then I would return to LA where the dogs would be reunited and my husband and I long divorced and healed would function as both dear friends and built in dog sitters for each other. The time machine would take off orbit, the earth, a few times in land right on schedule, but there was no time machine. I had to live my life in real time and so two thousand fifteen if did slowly into two thousand sixteen by then Hillary Clinton who was obviously going to be the next president of the United States was talking about white Americans needing to recognize their privilege. Even when Clinton became the democratic nominee, the residual heat of the Bernie Sanders campaign under. Scored the souring divide within the left Clinton supporters chalked up any opposition to their candidate to misogyny. Sanders, holdouts blasted Clinton as an establishment liberal with troubling ties to Wall Street that there is truth to both sides hardly mattered since cable news and social media lacked the capacity to metabolize more than two food groups at the same time. Meanwhile, the identity politics game that the left had been playing a mostly amateur level for decades, had officially been elevated to professional sport by the right, it's most valuable player. Donald Trump would soon win the presidency by that time year had passed since I left my marriage, my husband and I were still spending a fair amount of time on the phone together. Texting photos of the dogs are running through our usual talking points about the things we've been chewing over since we've met a meld of politics, cultural observations and personal gripes that could really only be descr. Arrived as the problem with everything. It wasn't the best of times, but neither was the worst. The state of our marriage seemed hopeless, but the state of the world seemed at that point relatively intact until suddenly it wasn't. The night of the election. I sat on the sofa watching CNN and exchanging text with my husband. The first text for me to him, said something like relax. It's still early the last hours later and from him to me was one word. Wow. I hardly need to describe what happened over the next year. Racist became more racist, sexist hardened into full blown massage. Innis intern, those fighting their bigotry too often instituted their own kind of tyranny almost immediately. The resistance became not just a frontline against Trumpism, but its own scorching battleground to be frothing with rage over one thing met being insufficiently aggrieved over something else. If you were worried about women, you weren't worried enough about blacks. If you March for immigrants, why didn't you show up for the scientists? For many, there was no amount of outrage that couldn't be outdone. No, woke nece woke enough. Amid this crisis, virtue signaling went from a kind of youthful fashioned statement to the default mode of public and private expression. Twitter headlines wrapped themselves in the banner of social Justice. Even if there was hardly a social Justice angle at all new crops of journalists, many consigned to online opinion writing knew all too well. The career advancement depended on clicks, which in turn dependent on feel t to the woke narrative from NPR to CNN to dinner parties, gentrified, Brooklyn. You'd think the only allowable conversations were the ones in which facts were massage to accommodate visceral feelings of leftist outrage. Sipping my Rosa in the parlors of cobble hill Brownstone, I'd hold my tongue as the permissible opinions ricocheted bullets off. The eleven foot ceilings, of course, of Lucien is psychology is bullshit. Of course, the conservative columnists in the New York Times are nothing that privileged retro. A grade troglodyte s- bring nothing to the table whatsoever. David Brooks should fucking retire already amazing cheese. By the way Zimba I'd say this happen every time I went out, but the truth is it happened about half the time, the other half of the time. If they'd had enough to drink people confess the truth, they were getting sick of the term gas lighting. They thought the pussy hats at the women's March little silly. They didn't love Tana, hussy coaches book as much as they knew they should not that any of this stop them from indicating the exact opposite on social media. There was simply too much at stake to do otherwise. They said, apparently, any admission of complexity of threat to the cause nuance was a luxury. We could no longer afford a still talked with my husband, but our conversations were growing shorter, though. The problem with everything remained an inexhaustible topic. The signal along which are wavelength traveled was growing weaker. In the spring of two thousand seventeen. He called me and told me he was in a new relationship and that we couldn't talk as much as we had been. It was a gut punch but also necessary and long overdue, I thought about calling a friend but decided instead to console myself that evening by watching a two hour interview on the Rubin report. The guest was Brett Weinstein, a biology professor who recently been embroiled in a bizarre racial controversy at the ultra liberal evergreen state college in Washington after opposing anti-racism event that asked white students and staff not to come to campus for a day, student activists, hard Weinstein as a white supremacist and hounded him to the point that a safety was threatened Weinstein, and his wife. The evolutionary biologist Heather hiring who also taught it evergreen would eventually leave the school and go onto become core members of the intellectual dark web. But at the time of this interview, he was just a guy who'd been thrust into the media following a traumatic professional ordeal and who seemed harried enough to forget that it's glasses were hanging awkwardly around his neck during the entire two hours. He was also mesmerizing. I watched the video at my dining table while drinking half a bottle of wine. The next night I watched the video again. And finish the second half the bottle, let the record show. I was not completely without a life I taught. I traveled. I stood at podiums and gave readings for my old books while trying to write a new book, but not having long conversations with my husband anymore had left a sort of white space in my life as if there was a missing block of text in my line of vision at all times without quite realizing it, I cram the space with the wonkfest gladiator games of classical liberals spewing off against bar, left identity, politics on YouTube. At some point, Brett Weinstein's brother, the mathematician, economist, Eric Weinstein, wandered onto the scene with a physics based theory suggesting that institutional gatekeepers like mainstream media universities and eating large corporations, discourage complex viewpoints by labeling. The holders of those viewpoints as bigots idiots are both Eric Weinstein, alas. Was the one who would go on to coin the intellectual dark web label when the brother sat down together for a two hour forty, seven minute interview on the Rubin report. I watched the segment three times over the course of a week and why not free speech. YouTube was what I did now, instead of watching television and very often reading books, listening to music or cleaning my apartment. When a new Lowry mcquarters blogging, heads video went up. My excitement was such that you'd think it was nineteen eighties, New Jersey and Springsteen had released a new album at Columbia University event featuring MC water called identity politics on the left and right for which had seen a Facebook posting hours earlier and high tail myself to campus as the late for an exam. I lingered afterward and fawned over MC water as though he were the boss himself. A simplistic reading of the story might suggest that I had been red pilled that term which came from the movie. The matrix originally referred to being awakened into some vaguely defined realm of politically incorrect truth, though it's now associated with indoctrination into the outright and any number of related and troubling subgroups. But I found the red pill concept facile at best and not just because the conspiratorial overtones weren't my style. It wasn't truth. I was after it was that pesky nuance thing I would have taken equal if not more delight in criticizing the political, right? If there was anything remotely interesting or surprising about doing so, but bashing, the right, especially in the age of Trumpism with easy and boring, the conversational equivalent of banging out chopsticks on the piano. Inspecting your own house for hypocrisy was a far meteoroid -ment. As with James Baldwin's line, I love America more than any other country in the world. And exactly for this reason. I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually. I felt an obligation to hold the left to account because for, oh, my frustrations with it, I was still of it. So this was no red pill that I had swallowed. It was more like an assortment of pills of varying colors and sizes when combined properly these pills produce the desired effect of making me feel less crazy. Just as often though the pills would make me slightly queasy for every free speech youtuber who had me cheering at my computer screen, there was one I wished would just go away the conservative journalist. Ben Shapiro, for instance, seem to me little more than a run of the mill right winger who just happened to be willing to have respectful dialogue with his ideological opponents. Why exactly was he and the club there was the problem too of Jordan. Peterson's growing presence, riding the wave of public controversy over a piece of Canadian legislation related to transgender rights Peterson had come into public view primarily as an abrasive critic of identity politics. So the problem with the fractionation by group identities, it's endless. There's no way of Cherki quality across groups, cutters incident, number of groups, you can frightening group identity, all the way down to the level of the individual, which exactly what you should do, which is what we already did in the west. We figured, well, the ultimate diverse population is population of individuals. So you let the individuals sorted out no-no replace that with group. What that means for the bloody social activists is that they'll be able to play this game forever because you can continually group identity at nausea. And so the system will never be equal, and you can be sure that as we implement social policy to make sure that all comes equal, the amount of space that you personally going to have to do version is going to shrink and trait and shrimp in train. We've already seen that happen. In many societies, you think we would learn from the twentieth century. That won him fans among all right types and other haters of political correctness, and landed him in lots of compilation videos in which he was said to own various s j. Ws and feminists Peterson is more thoughtful side though, had earned him a place among the free speech YouTubers some of whom became obsessed with him and talked about him constantly intern. My obsession and constant talk about free speech YouTubers. Put me in the position of defending Peterson, if not his ideas that at least his right to exist most often I failed in these defenses since I couldn't understand what Peterson was talking about half the time today. Peterson's hybrid persona of philosopher, king anti PC. ED's Lord has made him about as famous as it's possible to be while still being a cold hero. He sells out large venues on international tours. He's believed earn as much as eighty thousand dollars. A month on patriot. But what was Peterson exactly a self help guru amends rights champion a grandstanding transphobic see deserving of as yet unretired New York Times columnist David Brooks characterization. Actually, he was quoting the economist, Tyler Cowen of quote the most influential public intellectual in the western world right now or was Peterson as one headline, put it a stupid man, smart person. He's all of these things and none of these things. I said, people are paying attention to the wrong parts of him now that he isn't calling attention to the wrong parts of himself. I don't know, stop asking me but keep asking me. Don't ask the people who don't understand him even less than I do. I was going a little crazy as is often the case with super fans. I was not only disbands follower, but also its protector. It's not this album that matters. I'd tell people it's that one. Forget the hit single and listen to this. No, it's not reggae. It's Scott. There's a difference one night in two thousand eighteen on the cusp of a late spring snowstorm. I went to a real life meeting for people who are interested in free speech YouTube. The gathering had grown out of Quillet a new online magazine that billed itself as a platform for free thought and which had probably discovered within minutes of its launch. I look forward to the meeting for weeks hoping I didn't run into a scheduling conflict, even vaguely planning. I would wear the RSVP Liz suggested there would be disproportionate number of very young men in attendance. Many of them Jordan Peterson, acolytes exhibiting rather alarming levels of worship, but that didn't. Bother me. I wanted to connect and learn. I wanted, as I said, when I introduced myself to really dig into things with people who cared about this stuff as much as I did, it turned out that I had dug further than just about anyone. There were at least a couple dozen people. The meeting, most of them exhibiting high levels of free speech. YouTube literacy, but for all their familiarity with the guests on the Rubin report and Harris's podcasts, I suspect my mastery had them beat tenfold. Their knowledge may have been thorough, but mine was granular for every name they cited as someone who's ideas really interest me. I hit back with ten more for every free speech YouTube channel invoked. I could rattle off several. No one had ever heard of. Eventually, I got the feeling that I was talking too much so I headed home. The sky was heavy with waiting snow that night. I left the meeting and walked up lower Fifth Avenue in the darkness. There were few people on the street. Save a handful of last minute. Shoppers gathering rations before the storm school had already been cancelled for the next day. Street cleaning suspended offices closed. It had been, I realized, more than three years since I'd hunkered down for the snow pock lips in that Brooklyn apartment watching blogging heads and grieving over my imminent divorce. Amid this thought came a devastating epiphany. Over these years, I'd weaned myself off the long conversation of my marriage by switching over to the long conversations of free speech YouTube. It wasn't just political loneliness. I felt it was the loneliness of partnership. Ended a dialogue converted to an interior monologue. Having lost my human intellectual ally. I tried to rig up new. Lie or ho group of allies. The internet videos also wondered this maybe my bloodlust for left on left. Warfare wasn't just a petty indulgence, but a substitute for the warfare of my marriage itself. My husband had been at once the best thing about my life and the worst thing he kept me sane yet drove me crazy. I wasn't so far gone as to draw a literal comparison between my marriage and my relationship with free speech YouTube. But there were ways in which they were mirrors of one another. My free speech, YouTube friends, functions as intellectual allies, get disappointed me as often as they bolstered me as much as I was energized by some of the quieter voices in the movement like MC water, hiring, and even scientists storing Alice Drager, who left academia over censorship issues and has been embraced by intellectual dark web types. Even as she's shoot membership. I was growing. Jerry of the self conscious clubbiness of the whole thing. It was as if some of them were having experience of high school geeks who had suddenly been led into the popular club, they couldn't quite believe their luck. So they got matching tee shirts and wore them every day. It seems kind of contradictory to consider us a group since the point is that we are all bad at groupthink Drager wrote on her blog by way of explaining why she chose not to participate in the New York Times article. If the idea is that I piss people off by being disloyal to my likely tribes while I don't think that makes me unusual. I think it just makes me a good intellectual. A good intellectual, maybe, but being a public intellectual or what passes for such thing today requires viewpoints that can be represented by hashtags and squeezed snugly into nine hundred word peds or hot takes. When I began writing an op-ed column in two thousand five, a hashtag was little more than the pound sign, new press for more options on a phone menu in all the years of that gig. I was well aware that I could raise my profile considerably by trending more predictably to the left or right. In recent years, I've more than once. Imagine what it would be like to share a stage with my free speech. YouTube friends ever remember how good it felt to where those matching college wet shirts at the pro choice March in Washington. There's a part of me that would love to put on a t-shirt and ride off with my friends into the intellectual dark web sunset. That's sunset, looks a lot like an in home podcast studio or an invitation to an ideas festival. But if there's anything I've learned from divorce, the divorce from my husband as well as the divorce from the illusion of ideological kinship. With many of my friends, it's at the more honest we are about what we think the more were loan with our thoughts. Just as you can't fight Trump ISM with tribalism. You can't fight tribalism with the tribe nor I've come to realize, can I count on nuance in the public discourse to save me from the confusion inside my head? Maybe all I can do. Maybe all anyone can do is try to keep nuance as a private practice, a silent meditation, a personal out to be renewed, at least once every twenty four hour news cycle, maybe all I can do is accept that the story is neither a romance nor break-up story, but a love story in the truest sense, it's the story of that rousing fleeting moment. When you hear someone say the thing that makes you feel less alone. Once again, that was Meghan Dom reading nuance, a love story, which you can find on medium along with the rest of the August issue of our monthly magazine at medium dot com slash great escape, and Meghan is here right now with me. So Meghan, I love that your piece is so different from the usual narrative about people getting divorced or going through a break up. You've got rom coms, you know, empty ice-cream cartons, but not you. You are nurturing out on the intellectual dark web wine. You think that you were drawn down this rabbit hole. And do you think you would have been drawn down it if you hadn't been going through a break-up? That's an interesting question. Probably probably in certain ways. I mean, I've always been pretty counter intuitive thinker like I talk about in the piece being an opinion columnist for more than a decade. I was always trying to find the kind of surprising corners. And ways into looking at things. So I think I certainly would have been interested in the conversation. I don't think I would have been so obsessive about it. I think what was really going on with that? I certainly had all this free time all the time that we used to spend watching Netflix, you know, had to be replaced by something. So I think it was circumstantial as well as just my overall temperament and interests. Okay. So here we are an you wrote that you were raised with middle-class, democratic values, politics are divisive as ever. How do you classify yourself politically now? You know, I can't. I cannot possibly classify myself. I think that's one of the problems is that most people, if they're actually honest and they're willing to sort of look at each issue in all cart way. I think that by definition then you cannot put yourself into into a category. I'm not I. I mean, I would call myself a liberal, but there again, people have different. Finishes of that. So I really, I think the I basically feel the same way I have always votes, but I don't feel as aligned with the sort of larger narrative. I guess that's the best way to put it. Okay. So besides thinking that their opinions were valuable, what else do you think you have in common with your free speech YouTube heroes? Explain how they made you feel less alone? I guess I, I liked the fact that they were talking about the things that I would talk to myself about their things that I would talk to husband about, but we wouldn't necessarily talk about them, you know, at parties or with with other friends, what would have happened if you have? I mean, I, it's not that anything bad. It's not that I would have walked into a party and say, hey, let's talk about the gender wage gap. I don't know why nobody. But I think I've always been as a writer. I've always wanted to take on the topics that I felt like people were thinking about, but either being afraid to articulate or not able to, I always felt like my job as a writer was to really go to those places and risk criticism and and really try to to to to express the things that maybe aren't always simple or not always flattering. And I did that for for a couple of decades. And I started noticing that that as a writer as within my sort of social life, it got harder to take on those topics. People were just less receptive to them. Somehow there was a feeling that we were in such a state of crisis and social media really amplified this that we just don't have the bandwidth for these conversations now. And so to answer your question, I felt like when I was watching a number. These people on YouTube, especially Glenn Lowry and John mcquarters that they were were having the conversations that I've been having with myself for years and trying to do in my writing for years that for whatever reason, there is not as much appetite for these days, but it was somehow there with them after you wrote this piece and it was published on medium, I feel like kind of like outing yourself in a way. How did your you're more social Justice? Warrior minded friends respond? Well, they had been hearing me banging on about this stuff for the last couple years. So I think people who know me personally weren't weren't terribly surprised. I think the people who knew me as a columnist and as an author isn't essays, all these years weren't terribly surprised. I mean, I think this gets back to your original question. Why did I frame the peace within the context of my marriage? I really fell that in or. Order to kind of take this on in a way that we'd be gentle enough, not to put people on the defensive and really elevated beyond just kind of complaining about identity, politics, kind of subject, which is boring and has been had a million times. It really needed to be about a sort of more visceral emotional experience. And so I think the fact that it was a had this personal element allowed for people to enter into the into the peace and an appreciate it on that level. And I have to say, I have, I have gotten really nothing but positive feedback on the peace. I'm somebody who's gotten a lot of hate mail over the years starting from my earliest days and so far it is just been an incredibly moving response. People say, thank you for for saying this. Thank you for taking this on. I don't agree with everything that you're saying, but I really relate to this this feeling of loneliness that you're. Conveying, and and I feel less lonely. Having read this and hearing about the people that you're talking about. I mean, what you're saying is extremely sad, that nuance can make you feel lonely. Well, it was. It was the lack of nuance that was making. That's right. So so yes, Zeier for nuance o or I guess the other thing though that struck me was many of the people the intellectual dark web are exactly that they're intellectuals who are coming from a place where they can be paid for their ideas and part of the argument from people on very left or progressive or whatever you wanna call it is that we have to go to these extreme lengths to reset what people think of that, that if we don't speak in very forceful and clear terms were we're gonna get stuck in the mushy middle, which is an writer way of describing what nuance can sometimes be right. Well, Moshi middle is sort of the word. I worst version of nuance. Right? So I understand that argument. I definitely understand that argument. And I guess I would just say that you know there, there are a lot of people who are taking that on. There are certainly there. There's no lack of of people who are happy to ride the pendulum swings far to the other side in the in the course of this, of course correction. Yeah, the course correct. Am I? And I think that's, I think it is needed in in many ways, and I think is totally valid. I guess I would just say that as an individual writer and human being, I'm interested in another kind of thing and that the fact that I'm interested in this and we're having the kind of conversations that I talk about in this piece. It doesn't obviate the other conversations. I think they can all coexist. And so I guess my hope would be that. We just kind of make the bandwidth a little wider so that we can have all kinds of discussions rather than just saying, you know, you're either on your on this side or you're on the other side. He'll use talk for one minute about less of the message and more of the medium. I mean, I would argue the podcast like these and some YouTube channels where you know you're talking about watching videos that are over to our wrong, like there's room for new us. So would you blame big tech in some ways, specifically social media for this sort of black and white destruction of detail and different shades and and the ability to have human conversations yet. And I will tell you that one of the reasons that I published this piece on medium was that I felt very strongly that it had to be long. It's about sixty five hundred word piece, and I knew that the complications were such that if it had to be shorter. I was not going to get my point across, and in fact it would be received in a way where people were were misreading. What I was saying or would very easily kind of put my story into a certain kind of box. And you know, I know from having written these kinds of pieces for decades that can very easily happen. So I was pretty clear that it needed to be long. And I think that what's great about places like medium is that you can go on, you have the space, and I think in in March, I know for fact, and more traditional magazines there would have been cuts made, and and I don't think that I would have accomplished what I wanted to accomplish in the peace nuance requires nuance to be impact and time. Yeah, that's the one thing we we. We don't have right now and I, that's what I really took away from your piece was as much as you should have, talked about how much you enjoyed watching these videos and learning from these free speech people. You also like quantified at, you're like, I don't know if they're right. I, I don't agree with everything that they're saying there are a lot of, I don't like it. Yes, we're horrible people. I would say the horrible one, right? The horrible ones. I'm not gonna put in the, there's some. There's there's the heart like Woody. There's a horrible in the miserable. No. I mean, I don't. I anybody that I would put into this category that you know, by the way, this is my own private term free speech. YouTube. I just very arbitrarily assigned that name before the intellectual dark web also problematic term came along. Anyone that I would sort of put in that category I would say is a countable for their opinions, not off the rails is not advancing. Not making dubious claims, but guess you're absolutely right there are. There are a lot of people out there on these platforms that are really kind of on the edge of of reasonableness and I get nervous about them. Yes, but you what I loved about your piece was that you quantified it by saying, like, I, I don't agree with everything that you know that this was an intellectual exercise for you and it was a coping mechanism more than anything, right? Yeah, absolutely. Meghan. Thank you so much for sharing your story, logging so many hours with the intellectual dark web, and I think you may have opened up kind of a new rabbit hole for a lot of people with this piece. Maybe I should apologize for that. Thank you. It was really fun to talk with you and thank you so much for listening to medium playback. Look out for future episodes where we will continue to share inspiring stories read by some of our best writers. You can find the new episodes in the audio section of the medium app. If you're on IRS, tap the headphone icon at the top of the app on Android, just click audio from the menu bar and you can also subscribe to medium playback ten review if your Kline, wherever you listen to your podcasts. I'm new summar ODI. You can find me at my usual podcast zigzag most weeks and this episode of medium playback with produced by Rachel king and Leah rose for pod people end by Sam, do Baath and Alex bec- Manosque for me if there's an author or a story that you'd like to hear on medium playback, we would love to hear from you. Send us a note on Twitter at medium or Email Liebeck at medium dot com.

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America's WAR ON MEN!

The Charlie Kirk Show

47:15 min | 2 months ago

America's WAR ON MEN!

"Thank you for listening to this podcast wine production now available on. Apple podcasts podcast one spotify and anywhere else you get your podcast. Today on the Charlie Kirk Show I. Talk About America's War on men. It's one of the most important episodes I've ever done, so please listen carefully and act on the things I. Tell You about. Nothing could be more important than what we're discussing today. The Charlie Kirk show. Check out our sister episode our conversation Larry Elder that we uploaded simultaneously. Email me your questions freedom. Charlie? KIRK DOT COM BUCKLE UP, everybody. You guys are GonNa love this episode here. We go. What you've done is incredible here. Maybe Charlie. Kirk is on the college campus. I want you to know. We are lucky to have charlie. Charlie kirks running the White House. I want to thank Charlie. He's an incredible guy. His Spirit, his love of this country's done an amazing job building. Powerful youth organisations ever created turning USA. He will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom campuses across the country. That's why we are here. Hey everybody welcome to this episode of the Charlie Kirk Show. Make sure to go check out our sister episode today, one of the most amazing conversations I have had with somebody on the issues of race Black America, and the history of our country with Larry elder please. Go listened to that episode alongside this one. I've been asked by a lot of people lately and I've been getting thousands of emails from you. Thank you at freedom at Charlie Kirk Dot com freedom at Charlie Kirk. Dot Com Charlie. What is motivating these people to protest in the streets. Why do we have such unhappy people in America? Why are they burning American civilization to the ground or at least attempting to? And I talked about in a previous episode that the lockdowns played a significant role in the civil unrest that we're seeing in America right now, and not just the burning and the looting, but just the pent up energy. It's quite easy. You take people sports away. You take away their gym memberships. You take away their social activities. You take away their jobs. Literally forty one million people out of work you take away their capacity to go for a walk outside about being followed by a drone or surveilled. With cellular data. Young men in particular that will have a surplus of testosterone. What do you expect is going to happen? I mean that is a recipe for disaster, and the lockdowns contributed significantly to them, but even deeper than that I think it's time that we take a step backwards, and we talk about pre existing trends in America, and how those trends are only going to become more pronounced. In time of crisis, for example, this is the matthew principle. Popularized by Jordan Peterson. Basically, this explains why the rich will get richer, and the poor will get poor. Those that have access to capital have gotten richer during the crisis because they doubled down their investments when the Dow went down to eighteen thousand points, and now it's up near twenty five thousand. People had access to technology were able to be even more efficient people that could buy at risk. Businesses were able to do so and expand their portfolio rather generously. This is just one example of trends that will only become more pronounced. The same can be said for our declining culture, and we need to have a real conversation about this stuff that the media will not tell you about things that you know to be true. Like the decline of Masculinity in America. How we are raising our children. Men from a young age are basically told that they are awful. They're given no right of passage whatsoever and no hero's journey. There's no earned success especially for upper middle class suburban man. There's very little struggle in no conquest. And Week men create chaos. We over pander to young men especially at young ages. And we do not teach them self control instead. We flood them with self. ESTEEM! It is much more important to teach a young person self control than self esteem. This was popularized by Dennis prager the terrific Dennis prager. I encourage you to check him out. He's one of the smartest wisest individuals in America. This all leads the hyper feminization of America. Basically I look at these protesters. Especially the young men that are protesting specifically the white suburban men I'm not even talking about the urban black community that do feel as if they are being disadvantaged and do feel as if there are policies that rigged against them, and there is some truth to that now that there's white privilege or necessarily it's because of racism, but because of Democrat teacher union cartel control, but because of poor welfare policies that have subsidized single motherhood and destroyed the black family and taken fathers out of the home. And I talked about in a previous episode and you can listen to Larry elder also reinforce this, but black individual raised with a father and mother in the home versus a white individual raise with just a single mother. The black individual actually has a higher likelihood. To succeed long-term that pretty much dispels the idea of racism in America. It should go to show. That it might not be racism that is keeping black people perpetually poor. It is some other structure that has been designed by Democrat politicians that have ruled the inner cities over the last couple of decades like fatherless-ness, failing schools and a war on police, but when I look at the upper middle class suburban individuals that are throwing Molotov cocktails. That are screaming at the top of their lungs about injustice. I thought to myself boy. If your life story is about blaming other people and blaming the system. You will be miserable. If. Your reason the story you tell yourself for not being where you want to be. Is Somebody else's fault? Then you'll absolutely be miserable, because then it's out of your control. If everything wrong with where you are, and the discontent that you have in your life is because somebody else. It is therefore logically impossible to ever correct it. Unless you burn everything down around you. Unless you decide that the system is worthy of destruction. Miserable people which are the ones, these riots and these massive protests in suburban communities they destroy an attack. Grateful people flourish, and they built grateful people that are thankful to be in America that one actually conserve. What was sacrificed before them. PC MADDOCK is a white list next generation antivirus software designed to stop modern threats like ransomware independent testing Av test, just named PC, medic as a top performer in the cybersecurity industry, giving it the best performance award for two thousand nineteen only. Has American, research, development and support PC. Mattis competition is made in foreign countries where many of the viruses originate. You need to build the wall around your computer. The Iranian Revolutionary Guard and the Chinese Communist Party are coming for your computer right now. Do something about it and build the wall. It's PC matic dot com slash Charlie PC medic, just fifty dollars for five devices for one year with a thirty day money back guarantee, and if you act now, PC has officially offered my listeners a free month of security protection with the purchase of an annual license to accept this offer. Medic. Dot Com Slash Charlie. That's PC MAC dot. COM Slash Charlie Bill Bawar. Keep people out of your computer. Protect Yourself PC MEDIC DOT com slash charlie. And a lot of these individuals that are protesting. That are pushing the boundaries of civil disobedience, specifically from upper middle class backgrounds. And the phenomenon that is spreading. Vialli through America is group humiliation. If you've not seen it yet. I encourage you to go look at these videos of black lives, matter groups, stopping white people in the streets, making them kneel and apologize for their immutable characteristics things they cannot change. So instead. Of having a real conversation, any focus in our country around. You as the protester. What are you responsible for? And this all comes from college campuses, college campuses, and I could say this more so than any other individual in the entire country. I don't use arguments from authority often, but when I do, it's about something that I honestly have more experience with than almost any other person in the country for example I would trust. Albert Pulse to tell me about Major, League Baseball, hitting techniques better than just some person on the side of the street. I will tell you about college campuses because I'm one of the leading voices on analyzing and speaking on college campuses, running turning point USA on two thousand high school and college campuses across the country. I can tell you that colleges do not. Create mature, grateful, moral or driven people. If you are told Time and time again that the world is an awful bigoted backwards place. That is in need of revolution. All of a sudden you start to act on it. You think you are doing the morally righteous thing. So we have to ask ourselves the question. Are we actually communicating to young people what it means to have meaning? Meaning comes from responsibility. Jordan Peterson wrote an entire book on this. The twelve rules for life meaning does not from raising your fist in the air against a specific injustice that has no data or statistics to back it now I am not against protesting something righteous. I am not against using the means of protest to redress your government. That's why I was a huge supporter of the lockdowns because I saw that the lockdowns actually negatively contributed to the American experience. We saw suicides. We saw anxiety we. We saw alcoholism drug usage on the way up domestic abuse. spousal abuse self inflicted wounds were at record rates. That's why I love the peaceful protests peaceful protests by the way now one of those protests got violent when we were petitioning our government to reopen against the draconian backwards lockdowns, but as soon as something that happens that fits the media narrative. We were all of a sudden told that you could leave your house and the virus one affecting no matter how righteous the causes which anyone. With a functioning brain knows that the double standard there is so blatant so ridiculous and so insane. And so this is created. What I call protests culture protest culture. Is, the belief that if you go out in the streets, instead of improving your own life, making your bed. Shaving your face and treating yourself the way, others want to be treated instead of improving your life, getting a job and acting ethically and morally as you. Can you tell the rest of the world that they're the ones that are screwed up that you need to burn the system down? So. Here's the test of how whether you know you're in protest, culture or rather actually protesting something righteous. If, you couldn't post about it on Instagram or facebook? Would you still do it? If you can tell the entire world. How good of a person you were! Would you still do that protests and the answer for so many of these young upper-middle-class students, college, graduates and activist is absolutely not. They're doing it for the instagram likes. They're doing it to virtue signal to a broken world, so instead of actually doing good. Instead of actually serving in a local homeless shelter, instead of actually giving sacrificial to a person in need instead of improving their own life, which is the most moral thing a human being can do to improve the world. Improve yourself. To change the world around you change yourself into the best possible human being that you can be. This starts in grade school with elementary school teachers that are encouraging students to strike for the climate. That protest can give you meaning. It's as if we've learned nothing. From the seventeen eighty nine French revolution it's as if we learned nothing from the entire twentieth century. Protesting will not give you a sense of purpose. It might give you a power trip when those instagram likes. Start to flow in and might make you feel like the best person in the world. Because yeah, you're fighting like. Martin Luther King did but guess what. The protesting is just a small part of what Martin Luther King did. He had a convincing persuade people. He had to demonstrate to other people. That civil disobedience was the correct way of going about protest. Wasn't the only thing that gave the civil rights era meaning, and I for one will reject category clean, completely any sort of moral equivalency of the injustice of the antebellum South and the Jim Crow, south and the opportunities that are afforded to black people today it is not even close. Here's a good question. How often do you think the rioters and the social media? sanctimonious protesters say? I take responsibility for my actions and I need to improve my life. How often do you think the protesters if confronted by someone in a very private manner? Would admit that they are the ones that can actually dictate human behavior and lead to a better more fulfilling life. Out Venture, a guess based on my own experience and based on my communication with these individuals. They would never see anything close to that. See! This is rooted in research, so we in hugged alien view of the world that the external the superstructure of society is to blame, not you any suffering that you are feeling is because the system around. You was not built correctly. And it was specifically built correctly for people of Color, and if you dare not be a person of color, you must atone for something that you did not do because you are the beneficiary of a system that was rigged just for you, which is nonsense and it is racist back in the Charlie, Kirk show archives and check out the episode white privilege. With, currently, no NBA NHL or Major League Baseball. You might think there's nothing to bet on, or you'd be terribly wrong. Arc's WHO's a partner bet, online stores, hundreds events and guess what NBA is coming back. It's coming back, so you guys have got to get involved with bed online dot AG. If you missed the NFL, no problem online still has daily mad an NFL twenty simulations you can wager on. Cars officially back if you're into entertainment bedding, that's okay. You can still bet on stock prices, the weather, and even the Nathan's hot dog eating contest. If you are an Ma fan, you have to fifty is coming up on June seventh. Make sure to stay tuned to this podcast to hear former enemies star Shell son, and but online's Dave Mason to talk all things you. You have to cease to fifty including all the latest betting lines. They're all open twenty four hours a day and all online visit the website or use your mobile device and joined today to receive your new welcome bonus. Ban Online your online wagering solution, Visit Online Dot AG. Don't forget that. Promo Code podcast one for your sign up bonus, but online near online sportsbook experts. One of the reasons this is all happening is the hyper feminization of America. The feminization of culture is something that has been considered the third rail of American Cultural Discussion. It's time that we tackle this head on, and that's why we're here at Charlie. Kirk show to have the conversations that the activist media will not have. Now some of you might deem some of this wrongly offensive. Everything I'm about to go through here. Talking about the hyper feminization in America is not a slight towards women. It's not even a slight towards femininity in I'm talking about how the balance between the merits of the masculine and the feminine are able to balance each other. It's properly valuing the traits in the relationship to one to the other. So when I talk about the Hyper Feminization of America I'm talking about the archetypes that have been commonly used in literature, Philosophy, psychology and sociology, also in the great religions of the world. So here's some examples masculine traits. Or! Men tend to be more gold directed. They tend to be more assertive. They have a bias for action. Whereas, feminine traits tend to be more relationship directed. They tend to be more receptive and grateful, and they tend to be more prone to patience and forgiveness now both of those are necessary for complete human being, which is why such a huge supporter of biblical marriage. Because the man and the woman become one in flesh, whereas the masculine would be more competitive, the feminine would be more collaborative, whereas the masculine would be more about protecting the feminine would be more about nurturing. Where's the masculine will be more about independence? The Feminine would be more about interdependence. Now men can't completely ignore the feminine traits or else you become so headstrong, and you have no patience, no forgiveness, no temperament and you have no capacity to maybe multitask. Men are very good at singular tasks, mono tasking, whereas women or the femininity traits would be better at multitasking. These are beautiful timeless forms. Now before we go any further, the left is not even believe in the distinction between men and women. They think that gender is a social construct that these are just blurred lines in that men can instantaneously if they wish become a woman, a can become a man. That kind of defeats the entire idea of feminism, and this is one of the biggest lessons about the left since the left have governing documents that they can agree on like the Bible like the idea of natural rights, they will continually try to outdo themselves. This woke kness culture. That one person is just going to try to become more woke than the other individual now those traits that I mentioned. They are timeless forms I want to make myself perfectly color. We're not talking about value. Male or masculine does not mean more valuable than female or feminine, but I do mean that it has equal value, and right now the masculine traits and the death of masculinity. Individuals that want to be protected that won't have bias towards action, independence, rotational and linear and logical thinking, whereas women would be more intuitive, and you know a woman's intuition, a mother or girlfriend or a wife's intuition is so timeless and I believe is a gift of the holy. Spirit, and it makes men whole. What happens when this gets out of whack in this balance loses equilibrium. The country can go into chaos, and that's what's happening right now, so here's just one example of what I mean. If the feminine nurtures. The masculine protects. Its when I say, we're living through the hyper feminization of American culture, you can draw direct line to the calls to defend the American police just like the Los. Angeles mayor announced it would do. Police mean protection now. We don't value the masculine trait of protection at all anymore. Therefore, we don't value the police, but some of you might say Charlie come on. We want to de-fund the police, not because they embody the masculine, but because they are brutalizing people of Color, they have betrayed their community and they apart of systemic racism in the country now, not so fast, my friends. I have heard for years on college campuses from the hyper feminist left that we live in a tyrannical patriarchy that the police are part of this patriarchy, the violence and young men picking up weapons. This all must be demilitarized and deconstructed from within. But even debunk that talking point that I mentioned is no, they have not, and they are not and this argument. That I'm about to do proves my point. I encourage you to listen to my recent episode with Heather McDonald just get the facts on this our police, our heroes, who actually saved countless black lives, countless countless innocent black lives are saved by police officers, and they exhibit unbelievable restraint. Look the only reason you could possibly make. This argument is because you don't value the protection that they give nearly as much as you value the emotion or the pathological side of virtue signal. Now if you look back to the old Greek triangle that many of you grew up learning, and if you didn't learn this, then your education was incomplete. You have the peso's the logos and the ethos. Our Society is heavily weighted to the pesos right now. Emotive style arguments whereas incorrect context, a house that is soundly built the logos should be equally balanced with the ethos, which means the theme the character and we've lost our character as a country, and in some ways the ethos balances out the logos and the peso's now look again the house or empathy, empathy and emotion these are beautiful and good things, music and art reflection psychology humanities are so important to civil society. These are classically more feminine. But again, this doesn't mean that men cannot or should not or aren't emotional. They are, but as culture becomes so hyper feminine. It is the left that becomes so unchecked because they play into people's emotions, not into logical thinking it becomes out of balance and society delves into chaos. Now Mind you. A society could become too hyper masculine to I want to just say that the hyper feminization is not the only extremist society can go towards a society can over compensate into the hyper masculine, and that would not be good, either you look at Stalin you. Look at now. You look at Mussalini. You look at these authoritarian strongmen like Urda one or in Saudi Arabia or North Korea. And many of the individuals in the humanities of the colleges point these out as incorrect social experiments, and they're not totally wrong, but they over compensate with the authoritarian, overcompensating masculine strongmen as saying we must compensate by making America so hyper feminine. I'd make the argument that we actually had the balance pretty good over the last couple of decades, and you better awfully careful. In fact, you must be brutally careful if you think you know where the equilibrium actually is. So one way or the other can cause absolute and total despair. If you become hyper feminine, all of a sudden you have men that have no meaning you have men that are told they are nothing but guilty upon their birth. System. Is built around this and we get to that a little bit later. I WANNA use an example in that has happened just the last twenty four hours, so here's an example of how whoa? Kness were the overcompensation to the hyper feminization of America. Comes right in the news cycle. New York Times. Columnist Barry Weiss. She's really smart by the way I consider her to be a very thoughtful individual. Don't always agree with her. She commented on the civil war. That is raging at the new. York Times Senator Tom Cotton terrific by the way he's going to be coming up on the Charlie Kirk show type into your podcast provider. Charlie Kirk show hit subscribe. Subscribe leave us those five star reviews. Tom Cotton wrote an article saying it's time to bring in the troops, basically talking about how it's time to use military force to quell the riots, and I also called for the president, signing the eighteen o seven insurrection access, Senator Tom Cotton and I agree on this now. This triggered an entire Legion of woke reporters or hyper leftist. Feminist style reporters Barry Weiss said this very insightful and very helpful. The old guard lives by a set of principles. We can sprawled Lee. Call Civil Libertarianism. They assumed they shared that world view at the young people they hired who call themselves liberals and progressives, but it was an incorrect assumption. The New Guard has a different worldview one articulated best by Jonathan Height or Greg Lukiana if they call it quote safety ism. In which the right of people to feel emotionally and psychologically safe, somehow trump's not intended. What were previously considered core neo liberal values like free speech. This is exactly what I'm talking about. So this kind of conflict now which originates mar universities. Has Young activists, ones. You're seeing march in the streets, not necessarily care about being magnanimous of other ideas or tolerant of dissent instead. They believe if you feel offended by something. You must have the right to stamp out that opinion. This is in direct contradiction with the old quote from Voltaire who said I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll fight to the death for your right to say it. When running a business, HR issues can kill you. 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That's Bambi dot com slash kirk spell Bam to the B., e. dot com slash Kirk. Now Mind You the feminization of our culture started really with the second feminist wave of the sixties and seventies, and it led to the war on men. Now before I go further, it's important to note. I do not support any form of men using power systems or power that they might have to exploit women. I get accused of that belief just because I talk. I advocate for strong men in a society. Really. Strong men true strength for a man is not to exploit win. It's not to take advantage of women. It's not to lie to women. Strongmen tell the truth. Strongmen treat women as something that deserves to be protected. and. The casualties of the war on men are real. Did you know that men account for about seventy seven percent of the nation's suicides, do you? Men are more than twice as likely to become alcoholics? They're much more likely to die of an overdose than women are and ninety percent. That's right. Ninety percent of inmates are men. Eighteen years ago or so. The terrific Christina Hoff sommers published the war on boys. How misguided feminism is harm harming our young men? Summers concluded this. It's a bad time to be a boy in America. Boys are less likely than girls to go to college to do their homework. They're more likely to cheat on tests and wind up into tension or dropout and quote. She documents how boys natural rambunctious nece was beginning to be diagnosed as a disorder and treated with drugs like Ritalin. Tell you this from personal experience I'm so glad that my parents fought off. Many people tried to drug me from an early age. Because I was always so restless I couldn't sit, still had ideas. I wanted to work harder and the hyper feminization of our school system. Played a very negative role in this, so here's some examples of this girl type Behavior Feminine Behaviors considered the gold standard in school. Boys are basically treated like defective girls. The ideal in literature by the way there's a good example in. Grade, the thing that you can get the highest grades for is the confessional poet. It's highly give stories like little house on the prairie, whereas stories around. Or adventure are actually banned from most schools and they're not graded. We've also seen the death of recess. We've seen the death of physical activity for young boys. Boys have a higher likelihood to have a predisposition to enjoy really high levels of competition. Boys need to work off their energy. Schools have been very sedentary and they've almost felt centered around the emotive and not bological and sips, especially, not around physical involvement of learning, which is how boys best learn involving themselves in the process, so exports and competition and fiscal activity was just completely gone within. Where does this energy go well into unhealthy outlets, eventually crime fighting angst. Rolling stone smeared in entire fraternity. You might remember this Rolling Stone magazine charging its members with gang rape. The article was exposed as a total complete fallacious fabrication, but the damage was already done. Then are assumed. To be part of rape culture simply for being men. If you look at college graduates sixty two percent of associate degrees are held by women this according to the Department of Education, sixty percent of master's degrees, fifty two percent of doctorates, Congress passed a bill back in two thousand fourteen, saying that girls are in underserved community. A lot of this is from Christina. She's terrific by the way. So when you have weak men, all of a sudden, you have single mothers because men don't feel as if they have to take responsibility. They never stopped being infants. They never mature. They never go in the hero's journey. They never slay the Dragon. They never have to shave. Never have to cut their hair. They never have to dress properly or make their bed. They're allowed to be perpetual infants. So over couple generations, while this is subsidized, heavy government programs specifically in the black community. This is also impacted APPALACHIA and many white American communities as well. You have single mothers. How does this impact young women? Young women without fathers are much more likely to actually hit puberty. Quicker than young women that have fathers well. What's the significance of this? Well, the significance that young women are actually more likely to sexually experiment at age as young as young as eleven or twelve years old. Why well social psychologists agreed because they're looking for attention and male companionship. Now you might have different moral compasses, but I think it's pretty agreeable that if a young woman is twelve years old, she should be sheltered and protected from all sorts of any sort of sexual relationship that does not help anyone. In fact, that starts a cycle of potential brutality of potential teen pregnancy and a lack of self worth. So as men go to college campuses, a man is accused inherently of sexual wrongdoing. When that happens there rob of all due process I've seen this happen to so many men and these are our sons were talking about. If you have a husband, you should be worried about him. Possibly dating accused of something unfavourably believe women they used to say believe a women, no matter what will, they don't believe Terro read because for Democrats have a second level of rules, but that's that's a different conversation were different time. But young men have had their lives ruined. This goes back to the thesis. I've talked about in a previous episode. I encourage you to listen to it. This called anarchy tyranny, which is the unequal application of laws and standards for the favored and unfavored groups men are an unfavored groups, therefore specially Republican or Conservative or white men that are not left-wing activists. If you get an accusation against you, you're guilty until proven innocent, and for men listen to this right now. That are conservative and viewer vocal trump supporter. Be Very careful with the decisions that you make in your life. Be careful what you text. Be careful what you say. Be careful. Who you SOCI- eight with. Because, they can come after you. They can get you fired and they will treat you unjustly. And then of course comes workplace in sexual harassment litigation and the recent flood of Hashtag meet to cases. All this gets put together. What ends up happening the worst possible byproduct of the Hyper Feminization of America? Men are now opting out of fatherhood and marriage. Men basically wave their hands up in the air and they say enough. I'm not going to get married. I'm not going to take responsibility I'm GonNa stay an infant perpetually or even worse. They will marry a masculine woman. Who never demands that he is the man mature, and it becomes some sort of very bizarre relationship where the man allows the woman to take full leadership in the relationship, these these this is a very unhappy relationship that ends up happening because it puts an unhealthy amount of stress and pressure on the woman because she has to be the provider, she has to be the leader she s, and I'm not saying women can't be leaders in a relationship, but when the woman is the only leader in a relationship. It puts an unhealthy amount of pressure. And it creates more divorce. Dr Helen Smith wrote in two thousand and thirteen quote men on strike that increasing numbers of men are boycotting marriage and fatherhood, and even engaging with women at all, except via commitment, free culture, which is what cowards do cowards who don't want any responsibility use that sort of engagement of hookup culture as a way that they can pledge themselves. This is purely hedonistic, and if you engage in it with no former responsibility, and you think you can just do that and walk away. You'll soon realize that that's just not. Playing basketball at the park, it's not harmless, so this is where it all comes full circle. This is where our current events of writing racial tensions all connect with the war on men as we discussed with our incredible episode with Ben Carson. I also talked with Larry Elder on today's sister episode police check it out one of the biggest problems in the black community, but also the white community as well and I'll communities across the country is the lack of fathers in the mid nineteen sixties, Lyndon. Lyndon Baines, Johnson sent social workers to go knock on doors of blacks to tell them. The government assistance was available so as long as there wasn't a father in the home. This is part of the Great Society Act signed into law by Lyndon Baines Johnson in other words. Get married to the government, not a husband. We incentivized and subsidize fatherless-ness this all, but destroyed the black family. Let's look at the facts. In Nineteen, sixty, five twenty five percent of black kids were born outside of wedlock. In Two, thousand, twenty seventy percent of black babies are now born out of wedlock that means seventy percent. Black babies will not grow up with a stable father in the home. That has nothing to do with racism that has nothing to do with blaming white privilege or Jim Crow or slavery. The has the do with a lack of fathers in the home. Now there are root causes why they're are not fathers in the home. which is bad policies? But the driving force by why there are not black fathers in the home is not because of racist people. Now, we're their historical roots of the twenty five percent, fatherless-ness and nineteen sixty five, no doubt seventy percent. Not even close in fact, black women were more likely to stay married than White Women in the nineteen fifties and sixties. Go Look at images. Gold read books about Black America before the Great Society Program despite it being horrendously racist and certain communities despite there being segregation. The black community was incredibly resilient. And defied redlining and defied some of the racist practices. The church was vibrant communities were strong and black America's income gains between the nineteen forties and nineteen sixties was one of the greatest wealth prosperity jumps in American history. You cannot blame the move. From twenty five percent fatherless-ness to seventy percent fatherless-ness on slavery systemic racism. So now twenty five percent of white kids are born outside of wedlock fifty percent of Hispanic kids. And by the way this all happened while culture got significantly less racist, we are not systemically racist in America. For instance actually, we're actually systemically decent. We are a systemically decent country. Actually so decent that when we see something racist like we did in Minnesota, we are so vocally and unequivocally agreeably outraged to that. If. We were a racist country. We were systemically racist. Why can't you find me one human being that supported? What happened in Minneapolis? Can you find me one person? That person does not exist. All of this creates generational dependency for all groups, not just blacks, you couple all of this with the empty promises of the left of the social engineers and the central planners it results in broken homes and absolute dependency in the mid nineteen eighties. The Los Angeles Times asked poor people if welfare was more of a stepping stone to financial freedom or a crutch, a majority said it was a crutch. It's fatherless-ness. That determines in large part, this success or failure of a home and of a child's future fatherless-ness homes directly correlate to poverty rates. fatherless-ness also impacts the way young people interact with authority. So, if you do not have a father figure at home. You then look at individuals like Jay Jamesy or Kanye West to fill that void of a strong man. And then more materially you look at people that act out the lyrics of Jay, Z or little. Wayne like the gang bang around the street as a father patriarchal figure. Then you as a black male, very well, might be asked to appease that father figure the gang leader, and he might ask you go kill somebody. Go break us. Go break into a store. which by the way is what was happening in New York City? In New York City most of the looting. was at the direction of gang leaders. It was young black veils that were trying to win the respect and the father figure approval of gang hierarchy leadership. So here, just some numbers. For individuals that are in single mother households so raised by a single mother, which by the way single mothers, our American heroes I can't imagine how hard it is to keep it all together. But forty seven point six percent of children in poverty are being raised by single mothers. Ten point, nine percent of children in poverty are being raised by married couples I. Mean that is a massive delta. And again single mothers are heroes and men who abandoned women are cowards. They be called out more and more vocally, and you can see according to the data since one thousand, nine, hundred sixty, which is census bureau data since one, thousand, nine, hundred sixty. In one thousand nine sixty nineteen point, nine percent of black children were just living with their mother like Ben Carson. In two thousand, ten forty eight percent of black children are just living with their mother and the fatherless-ness rate is even higher than that, because in order for it to be considered a two parent home. The father has to be there frequently. This would be as if the father has totally abandoned them. This leads to a cycle of poverty, a cycle of violence and a cycle of hopelessness, which leads me to speak to men out there. There is a war on men. The society is hyper feminist. But. None of that is an excuse for you to blame other people for being a loser. None of that is an excuse for you to go. Pillage and protest and take assign real men don't do that. Real men admit that there's adversity, and then you get your tail into gear and do something about it. Real men go get jobs, or at least fight like to get one any job anyplace. Real men protect women, and they protect vulnerable if you're cheering on. The destruction of our communities. Are Not, a man, you are a coward. Real men protect those that can't protect themselves. Real men do not abandon women or their wives. Real men take care of their children. Real men raised their children to be respectful, responsible and reliable real men work hard. Real men show up and real men tell the truth. And we need strong women to. It's not just a war on men, because this puts a on equal burden on women. Real women encourage masculinity out of men. Women do not expect men to act like women. Real women understand men are different. Real Women's celebrate healthy competition and masculine strength. And Real women are not threatened by the success of men. Men can complete. Women and women can complete men. We need both for a healthy functioning civil society. And we are way out of whack right now. And yes, there are only two genders done an entire podcast on this anchorage, you back in the archives and download it. But if we allowed this cycle of hyper feminization to continue. The overly emotive pathological descent of America. We will not have happier fulfilled women and really have weak and hopeless men. Suicide will continue to increase. Hopelessness will increase. And Chaos will ensue. To restore order in America. We must be serious about solutions. How do we make good people? We make good people by respecting the two types of people that God made. Male and female men and women we encourage. We encourage fidelity, not infidelity. We denounce hookup culture. We say that you are not anymore admirable, because you've got very drunk and bragged about it. There's nothing funny or cool with gaining thirty pounds during quarantine. That's called being lazy. Watching Netflix's all day does not mean a fulfilling day. Do something responsible. Do something hard. Do something that challenges, you do something that makes you be more creative, and for women out there I get messages all the time. They say I just can't find a good man. I actually agree with you on that. I see far too often men that act like. Grown up boys. That have gone through puberty physically, but still act like eight year olds, and so for men out there that are addicted to substances that might be addicted to online sources of pleasure, and you know exactly what I'm talking about. And you're like. Why can't a woman to be interested in me? Well? Maybe it's because you're not acting like a man. Stop blaming other people all everything I've talked about in this podcast is true and I will fight back tooth and nail against it. But men are not the problem. If you act like a man and apply yourself, and when I say act like a man, I say all the things above. Responsibility Courage respect truth. The commitment to honesty protecting the vulnerable. Protecting women. Men can be the solution to America. And a restoration of the balance between masculinity and femininity. Is the only hope for the greatest country ever to exist in the history of the world. Much for listening everybody, please email me or questions. Freedom Charlie Kirk Dot com freedom at Charlie Kirk Dot com I'd love to hear from you. CHECKOUT TURNING POINT USA. It's Teepee USA DOT COM TEEPEE USA dot. COM chip in some money donate. If you can get engaged, get involved and I'm giving away ten random copies right here right now. Just for this episode, the first ten people I should say not random I ten people at email me at freedom at Charlie Kirk Dot Com your thoughts on this episode. You get a signed copy of the Maga-, doctrine type and Charlie Kirk show it subscribed. Give us those five star ratings. Thanks so much for listening everybody God bless.

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Ep. 914 Liberal Hypocrisy Exposed

The Dan Bongino Show

56:00 min | 1 year ago

Ep. 914 Liberal Hypocrisy Exposed

"Get ready to hear the truth about America on a show. That's not immune to the facts with your host. Dan bongino. I love a bit of Dan Bongino show producer, Joe, how are you today and find good morning to you. I'm doing well, Dan. How about you? Yeah, we have Paul and I were up late last night late for us by eastern time standards here in Florida and the Dan Bongino schedule where like nine o'clock is become my standard bedtime watching the rally in El Paso and Baidoa's. I think rather poorly relatively speaking attended counter rally, and then the interview afterwards. So a lot of news to cover day. Let's get right to today's show. Brought to you by buddies at Harry's Harry's razors. You know, what I like about Harry's razors? Joe fun. I have I have obviously. Now, we're doing some video content with the podcast. I have to shave I didn't this morning, but I will afterwards. But if you save in the morning, you don't you don't wanna have to shave three or four times because you have a FOX hit at night to. But I love about Harry's is you shave in the morning to shave his so close your good for the rest of the day and the blades lasts forever. So you don't have to constantly constantly swap out your as we love. Harry's. Joined the ten million of chide, Harry's. Claim your trial offer by going to harrys dot com slash Bongino. Harry's founders were tired of pay. Paying for razors were overpriced and over designs job flexi balls vibrating handles flux, capacitors spaceships, you know, how that is tactics of the leading brands raise prices on you for decades with fixed that problem, Harry's by combining his simple clean design with quality durable blades. He thinks last forever at a fair price. Harry's brought a world class blade factory. In germany. It's been making quality blades for over ninety five years. They received over twenty thousand five star reviews on trust and Google Harry's replacement cartridges or just two dollars each that's half, the price the Gillette, fusion pro. She'll all Harry's blades. Come at the one hundred percent quality guarantee. If you don't love your shave, let them know you get a full refund right now. Get a thirteen dollars value trial set that comes with everything you need for a close, comfortable shave a weighted, ergonomic handle, five blade razor with lubricating scrip, and a trimmer blade, rich, lathering shave gel, a travel blade cover. So you don't think that blade up and listeners on my show. Can redeem their trial set. At harrys dot com slash Bongino. Go to harrys dot com slash Bongino to redeem your offer. And let them know. I sent you and help support the show. We appreciate it. All right. I. Joa just to note, I met you while doing politics while running for office, you know, that we met a while ago. Running for office teaches you a lot of things. And what are the things it teaches? You is that campaigns are about to things shows her this line two thousand times. So forgive me Joe for being repetitive to you. But many my listeners having it's about two things campaigns are about snapshots and soundbites, that's it you you could give the greatest speech in the world that a campaign rally running for Senate congress or even the presidency, and what makes the lead of a paper. The headline is a soundbite. And you want that soundbite to be powerful. Whether it's Bill Clinton's state of the union, a where he said, the era of big government is over our Donald Trump state of the union saying that we are born free. We will die free or last night. When he said it again, we will die free. We are not a socialist country, which you also said in the state of the union, that's the sound bite. You want those are what make or break a presidency and make or break a politician and think about the logistics as to why Joe. Sadly, a lot of people. I shouldn't say about me include. I don't want to be dramatic trying salt. Anybody people don't have a lot of time. A lot of people read the first paragraph of the story, and the headline, and that's really at some people just read the headline. This sound bite is an encapsulation of what Trump's entire speech was about last night and sound by capture from that speech is we will never be a socialist country. We will die free. It was a great speech Paso that was the sound bite. A lot of people took away that matters so soundbites and snapshots snapshots matter to snapshots. Meaning what is the photo with the event that matters. What's the takeaway? And when you run for office when you're a secret service agent, you pick up how important this stuff is I'll give you a quick story. And this is in relationship last night between the unbelievably well, attended Trump rally and Baidoa works again, relatively speaking. At least sparsely attended rally compared to Trump's rally, and how this is going to this does no favours to Baidoa work, and he should have seen this coming when I was. Event for Obama when he was. Campaigning for the re election of Jon Corzine. Governor New Jersey, I was elite advisor as a secret service agent on the trip advising a guy who's doing his first lead advance. And I remember this. We were at the arena that the New Jersey Devils plant think it's a prudential arena, whatever it may be and they could not fill the place up. They had expected twenty thousand people Joe eight thousand people showed up the staff was terrified at the snapshots. Now, eight thousand people Joe is a healthy crowd. Right. I mean, that's a decent sized crowd. But it's not a decent size crowd. If you're Barack Obama claiming some progressive Manto to try and get a progressive, governor of New Jersey elected in this rally that's supposed to be this breathtaking event they expected twenty thousand. So what did they do? They were so obsessed with the the specter of empty seats appearing in a photograph in the newspaper that Joe they spent hours and hours figuring out. How to tarp off the upper layer of the. The arena. How to tarp it off to make sure that the press shot made it look like there were no empty seats. It was packed to the rafters and arrest was just the backdrop you get what I'm saying. Oh, yeah. To make the photos appear that the place was packed. It wasn't. I was there. They expected twenty thousand people eight thousand showed up it was a disaster. The guy who gets a there's a staff guy usually responsible for crowd building. I'm not sure he even he even lasted after that trip. I don't think they fired, but it did not go well for him. Let's leave it at that sound bites and snapshots last night beta made a critical mistake, you know, Trump said he had two to three hundred people the crowd estimates. I've heard from law enforcement being quoted in articles and reports Joe is closer to five to six thousand. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Trump had thirty five thousand people and more people lined up outside the arena when you have thirty five thousand people in your opponent, claiming this mantha. Well, as the next progressive champion Bego, his snapshot is six thousand people no matter how much the media tries to deflect Trump said he at two hundred eight oh, really at six thousand it doesn't matter. It's a fraction of what Donald Trump had. That's the point if you're trying to build this public pressure that public supports on your side. And that Trump is this evil guy in a porter town, and all these people are going to show up, and I, you know, less than a fifth of the people so up that showed up at the Trump rally. A destroys you. I get this running for office. I remember having a rally Joan Prince George's county, Paula you remember that the rally. Paul. I got break Pauline. The data Paul has been helping us produced the show a little bit like yelling out. They're very well outside. Yes. If she's going to walk in and start talking, right? We had this rally in Prince George's county, we thought we were going to get like one hundred two hundred people there, we didn't we got like fifty to seventy five and it was a big difference. It was really it made a difference. It didn't look good. It didn't. I remember, listen, I'm self critical on the show because I use my own failures and some successes to to kind of give you some inside baseball. I this really works. We didn't get any press coverage. I think Maryland reporter was the only one that showed up and the crowd wasn't big enough to make any kind of snapshots in the sound bites. Weren't good crowd wasn't big enough to make a difference and betas efforts last night. We're a big flop because Trump turned it out and Beethoven didn't. It's as simple as that. Snapshots and soundbites, folks, they matter all right moving on. So listen, the green new deal stuff continues. And it's. Turned into a real supreme embarrassment for the for the left. Now. There was an interesting piece in the Wall Street Journal this morning about Australia's efforts on a much smaller scale to implement a similar type program to Alexandria case. Yo Cortez's new deal, ladies and gentlemen, we have to hammer this thing as a lot of sophisticated political analysts who I respect deeply of stated. This is very dangerous. And if we let this thing go without constant ridicule and mockery for the disaster. It is as many people I respect again of noticed. You may see this thing getting voted on. And if we get a progressive, president twenty twenty past do not laugh this off, you know, people laughed off the idea of something like ObamaCare. What do you mean? They're going to be price controls are gonna for they're gonna find people for not buying crappy insurance. Yes. That actually happened. Now, the individual mandates been repealed, but us ignoring this in pretending. It's going away is doing nobody any favors. This stuff is real ridicule. This thing at every opportunity. I'm sorry. I know that takes on a negative connotation the word ridicule. But the thing is so stupid hilarity is the best weapon against him. Now. The fact checkers have not done their homework on this. I'll get to that in a second too. But the Wall Street Journal has a really good piece this morning about Australia's efforts on a relatively minor scale. Bill to do a similar thing. Here. What Australia did Joe is this green new deal proposes basically raising of many of the buildings in the United States and retrofitting every building in the United States to be more energy efficient. Now, as I told you in my fact, check a few days ago, given the amount of buildings in the United States that would require the building reconstruction or retrofitting of thirty thousand buildings a day for ten years now, ladies and gentlemen, that is obviously not possible to do. But don't let that get in the way of Alexandria case. Yo Cortez's dopey ideas, thirty thousand buildings a day for ten years raised rebuilt or retrofitted. It's absurd. Matter of fact, Joe I got an Email from a guy I'm not going to name him. But it is interesting. He worked for one of those companies that remember that show. Joe extreme makeover where they make over a house. Yeah. You know, the show I'm talking about right? Paulie used to watch the show. We used to check it out. He worked for a construction company that tried to rebuild one house Email was fascinating. He knows who he is. And he was talking about how to rebuild one house. What a disaster. This thing is if you don't have a staff of he was saying, I think close to two hundred people to monitor it, can you imagine that for thirty thousand buildings day. It was a great Email one of the best. I've guy responded back to him. I said, hey, thanks a lot. This is terrific. So rather than trying to rebuild thirty thousand buildings at day. Let me get to the Australia. Australia created a program Joe for free. I'm using the dreaded air quotes here because nothing's free free sealing insulation for buildings at didn't have it in two thousand nine the labor prime minister, Kevin Rudd instituted this program in an effort to make Australian homes more energy efficient showrooms where they were going to pay up to sixteen hundred dollars Australian dollars. Yes. Sixteen hundred dollars to put insulation in your ceiling. You know to keep the heat out and keep the cool air in and the summers and make the country more energy efficient. I know you're laughing ready because you could tell this thing, sadly, it was you know, it was it was what happened was actually pretty horrifying. Let me see. Let me get this. Okay. Some of it was tragic, but the results are always going to be broken because the government has no incentive when it spends other people's money to monitor either the cost of the program or the quality of the installation. So just to be clear. Australia was gonna pay to put insulation in your Reuss up to sixteen hundred dollars. So what happened Joe? Well, of course, it was a total disaster. Now, here's where it gets tragic. This is a quote from the Wall Street Journal article today, then the deaths began for young men were killed while installing insulation other the government's program three by electrocution and one from hyperthermia the overheated. Imagine being in a in a ceiling in Australia in the summer during the Australian summer. Dozens more workers most of them. Inexperienced suffered injuries and heatstroke nearly one hundred houses caught fire environmental minister, Pete Garrett. Remember, the guy from midnight oil Joe that sets him subsequently announced the plan deregistration and suspension of five thousand installers of this installation. But the suspensions were never required in February of twenty ten just a year after the package was announced this installation package. It was abandoned. It's a fascinating story about how government when they this is for a keep in mind, folks. A project on the scale one one thousand one hundred thousand one one millionth less than okay? CO Cortez's plan to rebuild every structure in America. All they were doing was putting installation. What happened people saw free money from the government? Joe? Yes. Sixteen hundred dollars to install insulation. So they tell the story in the Wall Street Journal piece of fascinating story about how a guy ordered pizza and the pizza delivery guy shows up and gives him a car and says, hey, I can install installation your ceiling for free. All of a sudden, Joe everybody was a ceiling installation installer. Why because the government has given out free free. The free. You're delivering pizzas, I can install insulation. So what happened houses burned down? They were installing it wrong. People died houses, I mean. I mean, the story in there about a guy people were were fraudulently claiming to have stalled installed insulation collecting checks from the government others Joe were going up there with in order to save money. They were telling a homeowner putting installation they were putting shredded paper down in the ceiling. Folks government spending as Milton Friedman has said repeatedly when government takes money from others, you taxes and spends it on other people government spending. Neither costs nor quality matter. It is not their money. So the costs doesn't matter. They're handing out money to inexperienced installers. Everybody was getting a check and the quality doesn't matter either. Because it's not even their house these government people handing out the money. They don't care if your house burns down. It's not your house. I mean, it's not their house. It's yours costs, nor quality don't matter when the government spends money when you spend money on yourself and your family cost and quality matter. It's your money therefore, the price of the product custody price, effective and the quality of the work. You're having done matters because it's your house. Folks. I just read this this morning, and I thought to myself if this isn't a warning sign. You know, I don't know. What is how many stories do we need to hear about government debacles or Debica? Lls has not meant the buckles with tax payer funded programs that spend them on these Pyan the sky ridiculous. Outrageous, AO see proposals. Now on the fact checker front this. Ditch fact checkers are not doing the homework on this matter of fact, they're covering for. Okay, CEO Cortez. So last point on this move on. So we get a lot more to get through today. But this is important fact checkers are nonsense their garbage politic. Fact, the Washington Post is a total waste of your time. These are nothing more than opinion. Journalists not even journalists. They're just opinion talking heads and writers who disguise themselves in nonpartisan fact checking masks to get you to believe there actually fact checking than what what they're doing is propagandizing, you if you listen to yesterday's show, and I encourage you it was a good one one of my favorites. I told you that. Okay, CO Cortez. This was all monce about her that she is. Now trying to kind of semi admitting it now, but okay, she will Cortez at a frequently asked questions and FAQ stay on her own website yesterday show notes has the link to the cash version of it in case, you think it's not there. We're making this up where they hadn't FAQ's talked about paying people unwilling to work and talked about these all these absurdities farting cows and this other stuff. That was on her website. Now, she had. This adviser to her appeared on Tucker Carlson as I said in yesterday's show it denied this. Now, they're kind of semi coming around. But instead of the fact checkers calling her out on the fact that they denied this was on our site. I gave you the link. It's at the show notes yesterday. You could see it yourself. What are the fact checkers say here's a piece by the Washington Examiner Beckett Adams, I have in the show today. This is from the Washington Post fact checker there's a case to be made that the criticism about ending airplanes. And cows was a stretch to begin with it was there folks that was in the FAQ's I have the link on yesterday's show notes. Read it yourself. Since the resolution didn't mention any of that the FAQ's were not definitive on those points. But okay, she, of course, has now disowned the FAQ's and the statement that went beyond the resolution the line about providing for people unwilling to work has been walked back completely. So we won't be awarding any Pinocchio 's to this kerfluffle. This is such a joke. Fact checkers are such a joke. This is so stupid. The fact that you take these people to Washington Post seriously, if you do really is a testament to some homework you need to be doing. I don't mean to offend you. But if you're taking these people seriously as nonpartisan people interested in the facts, you need to really start to backtrack and start to look at where you are. Because you're being hosed. You're being lied to. They're not going to award any Pinocchio for AO. See and our staff initially denying this was on our website, despite the fact that the cash version is out there for the public to see because oh they walked it back in disowned it while the very same fact checkers at some of these other sites Joe awarded Donald Trump, a a somewhat true prefer or mostly false for saying that thirty three percent of women who are in these illegal emigrant caravans are being sexually assaulted when the number Joe was thirty one point four. So he was off by what a little more than a point and a half. And all of a sudden, Donald Trump is completely unreliable. And this is so stupid fact fact checkings a waste of your time. I just want to put that out there because there are some people who buy this nonsense. It's a joke. All right moving on. We had another epic liberal failure. And it's just. I mean, as I don't like shouting fraud, but watching liberals implode upon themselves and walk back and be complete hypocrites. Like this. Andrew Cuomo up in New York is just it's pitiful. I don't even used to celebrate it because it pointed out there poxy. But now, it's just a pitiful disgusting sight to watch because some people still believe this nonsense and liberals are in it for the little guy. Joe? They're here to attack the rich at a us, the rich rich, though, yada, yada. Ed is right. Like a Seinfeld episode. It's all S tax the rich take care of the middle class. It's all garbage this soult. What's happening with this salt deduction is just epithet democ of this entire argument right now. So Andrew Cuomo is peace in journal today. Wall Street chose losing his mind over the fact that high tax states like his New York, you can no longer longer deduct that your state and local tax Bill over ten thousand dollars right now. What's ironic about this show is liberals of told us for a long time that they're in it for the little guy. They're here to tax the rich. So the Wall Street Journal poll some simple, whether you agree with this or not the salt deduction just to be clear on your federal taxes. You used to be able to deduct your state local taxes. You're now limited at ten thousand dollars of that. It's just that they have cement heads these liberals. It's like they'll tell you all were in this for the little guy, we need tax the rich. Do you understand this salt deduction? The people who are losing the deduction are are people who are at the upper twenty percent of earners again. I'm not suggesting you have to agree with this. I get emails all the time. For people say, listen, I'm upper-middle-class. I'm getting hammered by this New York and California fine. I'm just suggesting to you that I have never ever received an Email from someone who is in the lower rung of income earners who has been impacted by this at all. So let me walk you through with the journal points out to show, you the Apocrypha the left how they're lying to you. The left is told you there about taxing the rich taking care of the middle class and earning more government revenue to redistribute to all these people who are struggling. So now, Andrew. Homos begging for repeal of this. They point out in the piece that the sole repeal by simple math only benefits the top twenty percent of earners with the largest tax with the largest cut of going to the top one percent. So that ability before the salt deduction to deduct your state and local taxes, the largest cut of that benefit went to the top one percents. That makes sense Joe if you were paying an extraordinary amount of state and local taxes that you could deduct from your federal Bill because you had very high income. You had very high income the largest company in the top one percent. And most of that deduction benefited the top twenty percent. I'm not you argue what you want for the Bill. I'm giving you the simple math the ability to deduct state local taxes, primarily benefited high earners. Also, if this is repealed and the old way of doing Joe where you can deduct almost an unlimited amount depends on Mt and other stuff, but it almost an unlimited amount of your state and local taxes. If that's repealed like Andrew Cuomo wants the federal government would lose six hundred billion in revenue over ten years. So folks, do you understand how liberals are total hypocrites on one in on one hand right might. But was it Lyndon Johnson? Who said I wanna meet a one arm the economists because they always come over and say on one hand and on the other say always give you like two they never give you a definitive answer. You know? I think it was. But what hand you have Andrew Cuomo arguing that, you know, the rich somehow were the problem we have to tax the rich. I subscribe to this liberal ethos that they somehow gained off the system and they owe the system back this amount of money, and they're gonna take care of the middle class, and that this should be redistributed and given to the government. But then on the other hand, you have the very same guy. Same guy. Same guy. I'm going Clinton used to golf same guy. You have the same gun. I tell that story. He's think shot golfing with them. And it'd be terrible. And I need headed good shot and Clinton would go Bill. Same guy. This is the same guy. Andrew Cuomo who's now arguing to eliminate the salt of. Suction removed six hundred billion from the government coffers federal government, coffers and benefit the top one percent, primarily and secondarily the top twenty percent of earners, folks. It does I'm just asking for ideological consistency. I feel for the people in New York New jersey, California, genuinely I do. Who've had their taxes increased by this. I never support a tax hike ever, but broadening the tax base broadening the tax base me with that means is making the impact of taxes and tax payments. Leveling it across income groups is important, folks. You may say we're why Dan the rich should pay more. They do pay more. If we had a flat twenty percent tax rate, folks. Twenty percent of a million dollar salary is more than twenty percent of a twenty thousand dollar salary that this is not complicated. Math. I don't care about benefiting the rich or anyone else. I'm simply suggesting that he broadening of the tax base does what show it makes tax flows into the government more predictable and not prone to boom and bust cycles. Look at what happens in California when the economy's booming California run surpluses because the top ten percent. Twenty percent of California earners pay the overwhelming majority of taxes yet when the economy struggles those same wealthy earners start to lose money. California goes into a drastic financial. Shortfall because the tax base isn't broad enough to to absorb the shock of it. This is not complicated economics, you want a broad wide tax base where everybody has skin in the game on public policy. Number one, you want high taxes, then you should pay them. You have skin in the game on that public policy. But Secondly, Joe it enables the government to absorb these vicissitudes and highs and lows and peaks and valleys of recessions, and in some cases, economic booms because everybody's paying in. It's not just reliant on a couple of wealthy people who've they go broke the government goes, bro. This is basic economics but quotas, and what any of that Andrew Cuomo's a hypocrite. He wants high entertainers to benefit from a deduction that benefits almost exclusively based on simple math any wants to strike government revenue from the federal coffers because it benefit. It's implicitly. He's a fraud. He's a fraud. It's as simple as that. All right. I have another great piece here, but this is like liberal debunking day. So we have to do that once in a while call them out on their nonsense. All right today show. Also brought to you by buddies at stamps dot com. Stamps dot com. Postage rates have gone up. Again, thankfully, stamps dot com. Can ease the pain with big discounts off post office, retail rates with stamps dot com. 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A great piece today on my. On my website, Bongino dot com. It's in the show notes. And I strongly encourage you to read it because it the bunks another widely held nonsensical liberal BS theory that the Trump economy is not motoring along because quote wages are stagnating. That's garbage wages are not stagnating. The peace will be in the show notes. If you subscribe to my Email us, which I strongly encourage you to do it's available. My website just says subscribe to Email us, I will Email you these articles right to your inbox. And you will have the intellectual firepower you need to debate your liberal friends who are lying to you. Unfortunately, all too often. So the title of match peaches, no wages are not stagnating. This is basically, you know nonsense he addresses it right away. Don't be fooled. Wages, do not stagnating under Trump. That's the time. Let's the exact title the piece I should've been precise there. Matt points out some more liberal gas lighting techniques. And it's a brilliant piece, folks. Number one wages are not stagnating. And all that's actually, factually numerically garbage. It's. Made up in two thousand eighteen wages jumped three point two percent. Now now to be fair and give you the facts and data the left wing media won't when you adjust that for inflation the net in other words, factoring out inflation effects. The Neta fact is wages are only up zero point seven six. So there's you know, there's a difference between real and nominal nominally. Three point two percent wages are up. But again when you factor in the buying power that money wages are still up Joe, but they're only up zero point seven six percent, which granted is not a profound change. But is still a factually accurate statement? So if you're liberal friends tell you wages are an up there actually lying to you. This is widely accepted easily available public data we've met links to in the piece that has strongly encourage you to check out it may not be up in real terms as much as it is a nominal terms. But wages are up but map points out. Another interesting piece of information that we had addressed this a long time ago in. Joke. It's six months ago. Joe? Everything six months ago on this show every that we had addressed this awhile ago. How liberals like to skew the numbers in fact checkers like to mess with Trump. But when I give you the facts back, you'll have the to go back. What's really going on folks? And the reason wages are up, but are only up in real terms zero zero point seven six percent again, which is still up is. Because folks, we've had we've had a lot of retirements from people fifty five to sixty four in the workforce. Now, what would that have to do wages? They get through. This is genius point. Matt did a good job here. Joe let me ask you this. Have you accumulated more value added workforce related skills? Do you have them now in your fifties? Or did you have more skills when you started doing this in your twenties? Well, accumulated means over time. So I think when I was older. Yes. Yes. I, you know, you make me less. How you I love with jobs. What he does is. He knows the questions dumb. So what he does is in order to expand on the dumb. This intentional dumb this or the question because it's a liberal question. So of course, it's dumped Joe makes the dumb question appear the answer pseudo sophisticated in an effort to exaggerate the stupidity. Well since chronologically over time that means I've been living longer. Yes. Than that. Would mean that yes, I have acumen. Yes. Of course, Joe in his fifties. As a smarter guy that he wasn't his twenty Joe does things now with this livestream. We do with adobe audition with compression devices, we always get compliments about the audio quality the podcast. We used to Mike's by the way, the reason they sound different is Joe's or Joe's responsible for the audio version only, it's exclusively his Paula works a little bit with them on the Mike. That's this thing here. So that's why they settled, but they require different technique. Analogies that Joe's learn Joe is worth more to me and any other employer. He may work with now in his fifty any wasn't his twenties because he knows stuff. He didn't know that. What does this have to do it wages stagnating because people fifty five to sixty four due to the booming economy now at some financial security? They didn't have under the Obama administration are now deciding Joe it's a good time to retire. Meaning those are the highest earners in our workforce. So when the highest earners in our workforce, leave the workforce, you're left with one the mid level earners and low income earners, which drive down the average wage. Which means the wage growth affect again in real terms only zero point seven six percent, but still going up is even more profound. Matt gives a great example that if there were three say say, listen Joe's, the oldest amongst. So let's say Matt's the youngest which he is. I'm the middle guy at forty four and Joe's older than Joe's older than me, Joe based on skills and a company say Joe's, the CEO Jobe making the most I'll be making them say twenty dollars an hour jobs making forty and Matt's making ten because he's new he's the youngest. He doesn't he doesn't know as much right? Matt make gives us great analogy. How Joe retires even if I get a raise Joe, and I was making twenty dollars an hour. Now, make it twenty five and Matt gets raised from ten to fifteen the average wages if you were making fifty to sixty dollars an hour to give them more, profound example, the average wage still goes down even know me. And that got a resent make sense. Joe mad is he'll get a raise our wages went up. But the most skilled people. Our older members of the workforce you've been around a long time who've accumulated life, skills, work, skills, valuated, skills, managerial skills, they are retiring now and wages are still going up, which speaks even more to the power. The Trump Kadhamy me to overcome even that. Secondly, he points out. Joe how labor force participation has gone up dramatically under Donald Trump people who are eligible to work who had would given up opportunities to work in the Obama workforce where labor force participation was that near record lows people had given up again statistical facts, easy for you to research online, Matt links to them in the piece. Labor force participation under Obama was that record lows people gave up looking for jobs. Yeah. What's happening? Now, Joe not only are some of our highest paid skilled and older workers retiring now because of the good economy, but because of the great economy right now, a lot of people who had given up looking for work who's skills have atrophied and may not be able to demand the salary. They could demand eight years ago because they lost out on a lot of that work time are now coming back into the workforce at a lower salary driving down wages a bit. Even the San Francisco. Federal Reserve is map points out in the piece. This isn't some bastion of right wing conservatives and pointed out that this is one of the anomalies of a growing economy that initially as people come back into the workforce because of the availability of jobs that wages can actually go down a bit. Because some of these workers lost some of their skills. Again, let's leave the sophisticated economic analysis to us the let's let the liberals, you know, dance on their own facts and data grave as they constantly go out there and trot out the boat stupid points. So the three takeaways before we move on. Yes. Wages are going up in nominal 'em. And in real terms. They are being dragged down a bit by older more skilled workers retiring because of the good economy and third. The fact that jobs are opening up in near record numbers. People are coming back in the workforce with lesser skills who are taking lower wages driving down wages a bit. But they're still going up. That's how good the economy is really what a Matt's finer piece. I love economic. So I'm kind of biased to things fascinate me. Spiking case in economics. I I love Matt's work and be so maybe a little biased. But folks, please I strongly encourage you to read the piece it's on my new show notes today. It's at Bongino dot com. If you don't want to subscribe, the Email is that's up to you. But please read it it's really good. It's short. It's sweet. And it hammers Paula put it up there again in the video thanks for doing that it just hammers hammers this idea that the liberals keep hitting Trump with it is not true. I'm just asking people to do basic homework on this. Okay. Another development here in the spy case. And a great piece by Jeff Carlson over the epoch times who's done some really great work. And folks it worries me. The gist of the peace to get the lead out in the front. Is if you're a libertarian at heart like I am. Who's genuinely concerned about the private self versus the public self. It's giving me goosebumps talking. I'm not even kidding. We can see it on the video. She my hair standing up because it freaks me out that much even kidding. The private and the public self or disappearing and this piece Jeff wrote at the epoch times. It's about spy gate, but it's about something bigger, folks. And it's the reason I wanted to bring it up today. What he talks about in the pieces how the FIS accord the ability of the federal government to use its law enforcement and intelligence powers to spy on. You was initially subjected to a bunch of stringent restrictions the woods procedure, which we've talked about frequently which is designed to fact check the information before it goes into the court, and there were multiple layers of redundancy, Joe designed to protect you from being spied on by the government in a court where you're not even entitled to be at the preceding or any of the percents. Not adversarial, right. It's effectively the new spy chamber. Jeff's pieces long, but it's worth your time. Because it talks about how during the spying on Donald Trump cases by all of this broke down. Joe now, I'm going to read to you snippet of net p shortly about how none of the safeguards against your privacy were implemented in this case at all. And the government was basically given unfettered access into the private lives of people who had no business being on the government's radar. But before I get to that. So that's the lead here. What's bothering me is former federal agent a caught myself who had the power to take away people's freedom their assets. Folks, the distinction between a free society and a an unfree society is the distinction between the private and the public self. If you live in a socialist too, radical despotic regime, North Korea Venezuela, or others where political spying happens. Your personal life is always public your emails. What happens in your home as in in in the Soviet in mouse, China and in the Soviet Union, even family members were encouraged to spy on on other other family members for treason and sedition and insubordination of the government's efforts to propagandize people. You understand where I'm going with this show. You were never safe. Yeah. This is a topic. I've discussed often on this show for five years. Now, you were never saved. There was no personal life. The argument. I gave is we live in this free constitutional Republic relatively free where you know, when you open the garage door in the morning and turn your car on a leave for work that you are leaving your private life at home, and you now become public. You're out in public. People can see you in your cars your commuting to work. People can see you at your job your work emails. Your work can read you understand and you act differently. So we act differently at home than we do out in public. Everybody knows that they're listen folks are things people do at home is that that that they wouldn't want people to know when public people use the bathroom. They don't want the puck. No one's going to livestream that if you're not an imbecile, don't, you know, people pick their nose or whatever they eat a bad diet at home. And maybe they're watching things on the internet that they shouldn't be watching, and they don't want people to know that, but you got a personal life and the idea about a personal. Life in contrast to a public life is that in that personal life as long as your personal behavior doesn't negatively impact others that your to be left alone. That's what freedom is the security for your private papers and behavior to stay private as long as it doesn't violate laws or negatively impact anyone else's civil rights. Folks. This is all breaking down all of it. Now before I get to the epoch times piece minute throw Paul Pierce. Sorry. She's trying she's can't use to my cavalier style on the video here. But I read another piece in the Yale daily news, which is in the show notes today that was highlighted by Christina Hoff Sommers on our Twitter feed. That's how I founded by a student by the name of ISIS Davis marks who wrote an op Ed piece in the Yale daily news. About how he intends to spy on quote, white, boys. I'm not making this up. Joe? Here's the end of his op-ed. He's talking about how he sees these white kids on campus who he feels have white privilege who may grow up later to be supreme court justices or politicians and how students on the campus have an obligation out of spy on these white kids. Take screen shots of their screens their behaviors take screen shots of them to video them and basically to incorporate like a guest stop. Oh file in case. These white kids become not making this up the op-eds in there in case these people become prominent officials later, so they can use it against them later on he ends up at. Oh, it's her excuse me. It's a her ISIS Davis Marsh. Forgive me. She she says, but I can't do that anymore. I can't let things slip by I'm watching you white boy. And this time I'm taking a screen shot. Folks. The private self and the public self that distinction even in a constitutional Republic. We're supposed to have is is slowly disappearing. Has identity politics on this far that we don't even need Soviet gulags anymore. We have our own citizens walking around as a spy patrol for the identity politics. Police taking screen shots of the computers of white college students with the assumption. But accumulating Emina file what is it white kids vile for later on in case, they become famous or popular? This was a real op-ed folks that was allowed to run in that paper. Unbelievable. This is a screen shot from it on the on the video. They're evil is Bain. Oh, I guess making making a reference to some of the the trials they had had you know, what she's talking about. This is unbelievable. Now, combine that with this epoch times piece the epochs times piece about how there were supposed to be safeguards in the FIS accord, Joe we weren't supposed to be spying on our citizens without legitimate safeguards built in. I have said to you repeatedly the problem that three letter agency players involved in the spy gate scheme. We're going to have is the paperwork was laid out in the woods file about a number of people who were supposed to check the facts before they spied on the Trump team and didn't do it. Because the facts the dossier were were unverified. They weren't facts. They were anti facts. Now, an F B I lawyer yet big times got a hold of some of her testimony up on the hill and the F B I lawyer talks about these accuracy, reviews and compliance audits. That was supposed to be done by the department of Justice Joe to ensure that people like you, and I and Trump and Carter page are not spied on without fact base evidence. From the peace again in the show notes today. More your said that routine compliance audience audits known as accuracy reviews are sometimes carried out by the department of Justice office of intelligence that wouldn't tale a review of nonspecific woods files. So that the OJ to be clear is supposed to come in and review, the woods procedure where layers and layers of people in this woods procedure named after the lawyer who invented it. The NBA are supposed to check information before you were spied on by our government and the DOJ supposed to do compliance audits to make sure that the facts are being checked. However, Moyer also noted that the woods file relating to the page. Pfizer had not been reviewed or audited by anyone. Question. They miss summers Esser previously. You had mentioned I think that to your knowledge in audit or woods review had not been performed on the Carter page. Pfizer miss Moyer. Correct. Do you understand the gravity of what we're talking about here? Ladies and gentlemen, we're talking about a presidential campaign. Where the fully weaponized assets of intelligence assets used by the United States government and law enforcement assets in the FBI were turned on the political opposition of a sitting President, Barack Obama the basic Safeco that a decision in and of itself that should have elicited a higher degree of scrutiny. Joe if any case it American history. Demanded the response of accurate fact checkers to make sure they were spying on the Trump team for legitimate reasons. Do you think this was the case? Pretty soon. You're kinda sorta right this what's procedure is emplaced to ensure they are spying on them for the right reasons. And when asked on the record on the record was this woods file check was a compliance audit done. The answer is no. And is Jeff Wilson points out in the epoch times piece. When another principal FBI attorney Tricia Anderson as I discussed last week was asked if she reviewed the FIS application for one of the most important spying cases counterintelligence cases in US history. Tricia Anderson said, no, she only looked at the cover sheet, which indicated there are no problems. Ladies and gentlemen. This is what happens with the bureaucracy, the growing federal bureaucracy and the growing diminishment of the fourth amendment that protection against the legal search and seizure in our society as the federal law enforcement bureaucracy grows what happens institutional protections collapse and fall apart. Everything becomes pro forma people. Just check a box you review it. Yeah. I could Joe I was in the federal government. I know how this works. I know how it works people check box. Did you read the whole case? I read it. But the other guy did right? How do you know the other guy did? Well, he checked a box to. So what happens we now have a system of Pfizer court in effective star chamber? You can spy on Americans notice to them at all delve into their most intimate secrets what they're emailing from their house when they thought they were living their private lives what they're talking to people on the phone about what they thought was private. That's all gone now, you can now do that as long as someone submits a cover sheet on a woods file, and you check a box, and you read it even though you didn't. Folks, you understand our devastating? This is the dramatic loss of privacy. How the lines the hard blinds and a free constitutional Republic between the public self and the private self or now gone everything is becoming the public self now. You've got kids in Yale threatening the screen shot your computer in the classroom to put together a file on you in case, you do something later in life. They can use the guest you, and they didn't even need a gulag a threat of gulag to do it. They brought in their own totalitarianism with no no pressure arrest or torture to do it. You didn't need to be threatened by the Soviets to spy on your own family and classmates, they're doing it because I deputy politics demands it, and then we have a jury system in our federal government now a legal system that is codified legal spying on American citizens as long as Joe we check a box here. And there did you read it? I didn't read it. But I checked the box somebody else read it. We're spying on the president's team. You think you may want to read that file now we're good Joey bag a donuts looked at it bagel guy on this corner checked it out we read it by him. He said it was all good. It's a okay. What is happening? Listen, you may not like some of these guys. But if there was ever a time to start to support people like rand Paul and others. I like grand the lot who has been firmly. Principal on the issue of diminishing privacy in a free constitutional Republic. If there was ever a time to support people like that that time is now this is scary stuff oaks. And for you, many totalitarians, especially the one who wrote that yell daily news piece, I'm ashamed embarrassed for you. I never thought despotism tyranny and government apparatchiks wouldn't even need. The threat is forced to spy on their own citizens, and friends and neighbors disgraceful, absolutely horrible. All right. I got another story to get through today. I should have spoke about this in the beginning. But I had a lot to go on and on and required detail explanations. I didn't wanna miss it. So there is a pending government shutdown as you've likely heard on Friday, if there is no deal reached, it'd be a partial government shutdown. Just like what happened last time just a few weeks ago? And there is some talk of a deal being brokered up on the hill right now the deal looks like some sort of down payment on fencing slatted fences, not a wall would be significantly less than the five point seven billion the president's asked for, but there's some conflicting information out there about the Democrats desire to have the number of immigration detention beds for people who broke the law decreased. Now, this is an insane. Talking point at disgusted yesterday on the show the Democrats actually wanted to effectively remove detention. Space for people who went to the country legally and some as even committed crimes and released criminals back into the country. That's all that is right. You could talk about all the talking points in the world. Joe? That's exactly what the Democrats want. They don't want us to have the ability detain illegals. Okay. Excuse me. So that's what they're doing. There's some dispute now over in this agreement. That's been reached nothing's been signed. It's just word of mouth right now spreading around through sources, and I have an article in the show from the Washington Examiner at discusses it. There is some dispute if there is a decrease in detention space in that agreement or not the Republicans are saying, no the Democrats are saying, yes, there's a seventeen percent decrease in that, ladies and gentlemen. I don't know what to say about this other than we have to hold the line again, we cannot cave to this. These political fights matter right now, they matter because they involve the very security of our country. If this is the deal. I want to be clear on where I stand. So you understand you deserve you. Listen to my show, you spend your time with me. I I'm honored by that. You deserve an opinion by me, if it does involve any any effect on the ability to detain people who came here and broke the law, then the president should absolutely categorically not sign this deal and make that known right now because due to the seventy two hour rule in the congress that Pelosi GIS implemented, they need seventy two hours to read and debate a Bill if they don't get this done, you're going to see another shut down on Friday, and they need to get this done. Now tuesday. So President Trump is not going to sign this because there's a decrease in detention space. He needs to let them he needs to put that out there right now is we need to prepare. And we need to get ready for another fight. And that's fine. That's a fight. I knew willing to have listen I travel to I get it. I see what's going on. It results in some delays. It's delays. And we gotta suck it up. But these are fights we have to have. But I just wanted you to update on that give you a quick update on that. I think that is an would be terrible terrible deal. All right, folks. Again, I appreciate your time today. Thank you very much. Please subscribe to my Email list on my website. And have these articles out there Reed mats piece on the wages going up? It's very very well done. And if you don't mind, please subscribe to the show on I tunes, it is free. If you have an iphone go to your podcast app. Just put into Dan Bongino show. There's a subscribe button. That's what drives us up the charts. It's completely free. If you don't have an iphone Android device or other you can go to I heart radio, click the follow button, or you can follow us on soundcloud, or you can just listen that Bongino dot com to, but there was subscriptions. They're free really drive us up the charts and help us get our content out there, which we appreciate you've done. It. You've made us the number two or three dependent on the week conservative podcast and the country, thanks to your home grown support. So I really appreciate that. Thanks a lot folks. A C automo-. You just heard the Dan Bongino show you can. Oh, so get Dan's podcasts on I tunes or soundcloud and follow Dan on Twitter. Twenty four seven at dbongino.

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Racism: Getting to the Truth (Coleman Hughes Interview)

The Rubin Report

1:11:41 hr | 1 year ago

Racism: Getting to the Truth (Coleman Hughes Interview)

"Hey, guys, in case you haven't heard you can get the Rubin report podcast totally ad free. Join Ruben, select at patriotair dot com. Slash Ruben report. That's patriot dot com. Slash Ruben report. Joining me today as a writer and columnist at magazine, as well as a philosophy major at Columbia University. Komonews welcome to the Rubin report. Thanks for having me on dude. I had to change my shirt because your shirt looked so pressed and starched and professional. It's ironic because I normally dressed like a complete slob. Same black hoodie every single day that I thought Ruben report after bring a game. Let's do it. I should've worn a tie, but here we are. All right. There's a lot of reasons that I want to talk to you. You're sorta, I think, put on put on my map and put on sort of the idea w map and the map of all of the people that that care about the issues that we talked about here about what was it about five or six months ago, something like that. So like that your piece I want to get the exact title. Right? Was the high price of stale grievances, and that was Enquete. And you know, I just had Claire on the show last week, so. So we're going to talk about a lot of things you've been writing about. I want to talk a little bit about what it's like to be a student at at a university these days, especially when the that leads pretty far left and all sorts of stuff. I just tell me a little bit about yourself where you're from how you grew up all that kind of stuff from Montclair New Jersey, which just thirty minutes outside New York City, nice suburb. I had a pretty typical middle, upper middle class upbringing and great parents. And out of out of high school. I was going to music school. Actually. I was dead set on being a jazz musician on. I still play drought, Josh trombone, but along the line ended up shifting paths and going into philosophy and enrolling Colombia where I have two more years. I do you go from jazz to philosophy. There's probably some rely may. Right. I don't know that there is. Honestly, I think I think I just loved both of them and realized at a certain point that just going to school for music was limiting. So. Yeah. Yeah. So you said middle class or upper middle class yet you have your family, have any particular political beliefs where you guys political at home? Any of that? My my mother was nearly a Marxist. She, I remember her talking to me about marks, endure crime. When I was three and four years old. She she came from the South Bronx immigrant, Puerto Rican, family, very, very poor in the seventies when the South Bronx was the picture of crime, and you re just decay and she, she was very smart woman ended up getting a trying to get an anthropology degree, but she passed away of cancer while she was getting it. But no, she she, I was I was exposed to to Mark's endure crime and some other other Marxist thinkers when I was I could have told you their names when I was five years old. Wow. My dad is bit of a libertarian, but I got less of his his his working much at the time. So yes, that's a real mixed. Yeah. Household of politics. Did you sort of lean one way or the other? I always leaned heavily left. If I, if I leaned. Anywhere at all? Yeah. I mean as early as the beginning of my political identity was definitely. Anchored around identity politics and especially black identity politics. I was twenty four. It was at twenty thirteen two thousand fourteen when black lives matter started cropping up. I was at that point very much enthusiastic about that movement. I was posting on Facebook. Having seen a police shooting to defect that this is this is proof that the system is rigged against black people so that that's more or less what I was politically as of maybe five years ago. So yeah, that was very much in my upbringing was in the water in my in my social environment and intellectual environment growing up, how much of that is part of the whole thing of just being around certain set of young people that believe certain things so that you all sorta believe it together, whether it's true or not? Yeah, I think I think we're social animals and and we're heavily incentivize. Ecologically to not break ranks with the norms of our social group. So if those norms are that you have to believe in the God Vishnu Sheva than most people are gonna grow up, believing those things. And it takes a kind of a rare personality to to be contrarian in that context. And if the norms are you have to believe in insist graces them, you have to believe that America is a unique evil, then people will grow up believing those things. And likewise, if the norm is, you know, abortion is murder, and there is only one God in its the Christian. God and homosexuality is a sin than most people in that context will will end up believing those things. So, yeah. I mean, I my as far as my upbringing. I think I can remember meeting precisely one Republican and he was my fifth grade history teacher, and he was. Such a good history teacher that you know in this public school that kind of made up for the fact that he was a Republican because all the parents who want their kids to get ahead wanted them in his class. Right. So you know there's something there there. Yeah, yes, yes. But I guess you long story short. It was very much of an echo very much an echo chamber, very ideologically silent. The Rumen report is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. You know what's not smart, making the lottery, the centerpiece of your retirement plan or letting your friends pick your karaoke song or using a job site that makes you wait for the right candidate to apply for your job. But you know what is smart going to ZipRecruiter dot com slash Ruben to hire the right person. ZipRecruiter doesn't depend on candidates finding you. It finds them ZipRecruiter's powerful matching technology scans, thousands of resumes identifies people with the right skills, education and experience for your job and actively invites them to apply. So you get qualified candidates fast. That's why ZipRecruiter is rated number one by employers in the US this rating comes from hiring sites on trust pilot with over a thousand reviews. And right now my listeners can try ZipRecruiter for free at this exclusive web address ZipRecruiter dot com. Slash Ruben that ZipRecruiter dot com. Slash Ruben ZipRecruiter dot com. Slash Ruben ZipRecruiter the smartest way to hire and now back to the show. Yeah. Okay. So so far, your story, I think sounds pretty consistent with a lot of what's going on with with young. How old are you now? Twenty two twenty two. Okay. So you said in two thousand thirteen. So only about five years ago. So you're seventeen you're sort of in this thing. This is the beginning of black lives matter. When did you start realizing that perhaps it wasn't as much of a positive as sort of been laid out to be while I think it's hard to reconstruct one's own narrative after the fact, but. I remember one thing being significant which was when Michael Brown was killed in Ferguson. I remember being in my first year of college taking taking a class at Juilliard and we were talking about this killing and it was just obvious from the point of view of most in the class, including the professor that this was just another in a long line of examples of black men being brutalized in the country that fundamentally does not want them to to succeed. And I don't know what what it was it may been because I'd I'd have roommate who was from from Arizona from very different kind of political climate who was skeptical of this, and I didn't even know how one could be skeptical of this. So jarring to meet a person. I liked that many people. I like that were skeptical of the things I took for granted the, were you guys able to get into. Because that's always one of the big problems was that people can't do this stuff with their friends anyway. Yeah. Well, the thing is, I think we were such good friends at that point for a political reasons that you know, no, no amount of politics was going to was going to destroy that, but I think I spent one night reading the complete testimony from from from Michael Brown's friend and from the police officer, and I came away thinking, well, if the police officers telling the truth and that was a justified shooting, if his friend is telling the truth, then it was unjustified. But I don't know who's doing the truth and no one in my class new either, but everyone had the same opinion so that I mean, I remember that being significant. I remember speaking about that, like when was the moment that you were kind of going? I gotta say something about not sure. I'm not sure that I spoke up about it. I'm not sure I would have had the confidence to speak up about it. Were there a couple of other things after that? Because I find it to be one of these things that once you. This thing for what it is that then it sort of happens very quickly. I think a lot of people that watch this show acknowledged that because I think it's a lot of former former lefties or whatever you wanna call it that kind of see one moment like you just laid out and then they start looking at other things going, wait a minute. Maybe that's not how it is. Maybe that person's not racist because I disagree with them on this or whatever the I guess I can. I can put two two other quick moments. One was once I, once I arrived at Columbia, I heard of this guy John with water who I had no reason to believe anything about at the time. But I just went on a whim. I went to the library and just search his name and pick the first book I could find, and it was called authentically black, and it's a series of essays. He wrote in the early two thousands about the fact that it's viewed as authentically black to constantly point the finger out white people for any given problem in the black community. Whether or not the evidence bears that out and because it's viewed as authentic black, there's this incredible taboo on anyone who thinks differently. And I was I was reading these essays and I remember thinking, oh my God, this is this is right, and I've never heard of black person say this out loud, but it's it's obviously right, and I didn't know you could say that. I remember that that moment being significant, but still, I mean, these subjects are so hard to talk about. I do remember. Doing at some point doing MD may and this is where people have their break. Yes. I guess this maybe makes the red pill analogy a little literal. There you go. But I do remember, I mean, because. I don't. I don't enjoy being the black person at odds with most black people around me are getting accused as I sometimes do of being self hating or Tom. I don't enjoy that. That's that's a very much a cost of what I'm doing psychologically. But I remember remember doing MD and I was talking to a black friend of mine about race issues and. If you've ever done MD may, you know, just puts you in this totally clear head space where you love everyone around you so much and you love yourself. And I, I remember we were talking about race issues, and I was our ticketing more of the kind of points of view that I now. And I felt so silly that I had ever had hangup talking about these things in any other context. And after that, I just I felt like like there's no reason. I can't try to approximate that more and more often. Of course, it's much harder when you're sober. But yeah, the analogy though, or the metaphor of the red Bill really has this about you hear how did that conversation and up? I mean an MDA laced conversation of all. I feel like ace all MDA laced conversations go, well, I mean, something has to be me. Yeah, it is. I just I think I think if we add more and more enter conversations with a mindset of the person I'm talking to has reasons to believe what they believe and they're coming from a good place. Then I a lot of conversations can go. Well, that said, I've had a lot of conversations with people since then that have gone extremely well. I, sorry, extremely poorly and have ended quite bitterly. Yeah, and I want to get to some of that and some of the things that people call you and all that. So have these, you know, couple of successive moments of of waking up. When did you finally start talking about this stuff? You know, I think I talked about it here and there with with friends and family, but and I had been trying to write about it a bit for the school newspaper and just writing on my own, but not publishing over the past year. But I think what. What? What did it was when Connie tweeted? I like the way I love the way candy zone thinks when he tweeted that something about that moment was so inspiring to me to see someone who nobody on earth would question their quote blackness because in many ways, Connie is viewed as as the picture of blackness. However, one cashes out that term to just to see him brink rinks to to see him break, break the taboo, even though he did it in a way that even though he's not an intellectual, he said, crazy things about slavery that that aren't true and endorse someone who I don't. I don't see myself as having very much in common with namely, namely Candice. Just the fact that he was willing to break the taboo at all someone of his platform was so inspiring to me that that that's when I started writing for clip. Yeah. So what was was this the first piece you put out for quit? I think that was the very first very first. Okay. So the title of the piece as I said, it was high price of stale. Yeah, this one was different. This one was. This one was about canyon Candice. This was right, right. So I think that this one got more traction, the one, you're sorry. Okay. So I think this is so I don't think I was. You're on my radar from that one, although probably that whole thing, the whole kind thing just sort of broken such a crazy way. There were so many pieces written. Okay. So let's back up. So then when you write this piece about Connie again, just now you can't is a friend of mine has been on the show like her. She has some tactics that are that are not my thing, but that that's her thing, and I can disagree with people and all that. Your basic feeling, though. This was a net good no matter what. Are there risks though in. Taking somebody like Akande and having that be the moment that wakes up people because you don't know where he's ever going to go with things where it's just the action itself enough. I guess time will tell think it is inconvenient that Konya I love his music and I've been a fan for a long time, but he clearly has some narcissistic elements to his personality. He's clearly not someone who deeply researches the subjects that that he sometimes talks about. So he kind of took a very blunt sledge hammer to taboo, which I appreciated. But there are there are serious downsides to that, namely when he says that slavery, slavery was choice. Something that ignorant seems to discredit his taking the sledgehammer to the tab. When I do think they're separable in principle. I also think what he said you're talking about what he said that on TMZ. Yes. And his counter argument to that was that he means that it's it was sort of a mindset. Yeah, I think was his counter, right? Yeah. Right. Yes. So just that sound bite read so awfully because it seems so uninformed, regardless of what his his intent was there that it can. It can seem to discredit. That he did a good thing on the on net balance. And I, I also, I, you know, I have I have reservations about can't Candice as well. I, I've seen her reason in ways that I think don't make much sense. Although I have some points of agreement with their too, but like I said, I think I think there's a taboo that is incredibly strong right. There are lots of black people who agree with some version of of my takes on race and are absolutely mortified to say so because there's this massive taboo. Yeah. And that's also why for again, whatever my disagreements with Candace, it's like I see her as someone that's trying so desperately to break something the very thing that you're talking about. So it's like if she's using tactics that maybe I wouldn't use or tweets in a in a more hostile way people or whatever that I would do. It's like, I don't know that I am the one that should be telling you how to behave. Save in in that regard? Yeah. Does that make sense? You not so much only because I feel like there are a lot of people who might like what candidate says on race. For example, someone Candice says to goes to a college and says, and sees all of all of these black students reminding her of the history of Jim crow, which they didn't even experience and using that as as as a rhetorical weapon and Candice says, listen, you were born in nineteen ninety, right? I completely agree with that. That is that is a message that needs to be hammered home, which is that histories in the past, and we have to be getting past history. But when she says that you're on the democratic plantation, I think that is a kind of exaggeration that is not useful because people with a different set of intellectual priors. We'll just hear that and be immediately closed off to to whatever else she says. And you know, I, I've also heard her just reason. Weighs on Joe Rogan. For example, when he pressed her on climate change, kind of appealing to a sort of feeling over facts kind of way of thinking, which is actually quite characteristic of the far left. But she, I think she also gets treated unfairly, and she gets assumed to be a sell out, which I think is is ridiculous. Ridiculous assumption to make about people in general unless they make it absolutely clear that they are. So I've, you know, she's, she's someone I, I would be happy to talk to at some point, but I'm happy to set that up if you'd like to make it happen. Okay. So you write this piece. Now this is the first public peace that you've written about this stuff. Did you have any idea what kind of reaction you're in store for? No, no me through that moment. Well, yeah, I think it got retweeted by Christina Hoff summers, and Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris, and some other people, and it really really blew up. And yeah, I, that was. Psychologically distressing because you know, I'm normal person. So when I go from having fifty Twitter followers to ten thousand and in a week or something like that, that is a pretty Lyft arranging moment, and it was it was just kind of physical stress, a low level, physical stress all day and not sleeping as much, but you get, I think you you'd be surprised what you can get used to. So we were you shocked where you were getting defense from where you were getting outrage from. Right soom. You expected it at least at some level? Yeah. No, I don't think I was shocked by. I knew at this point I knew at this point exactly who would be very pissed off by by my opinions. And at this point I resigned myself to to be to those people being pissed off at me and no, I'm not. I mean, I'm not surprised that the quote idea w types liked my work because I like a lot of their work. So no, I, I guess that wasn't that wasn't so surprising. Yeah. So when you then wrote the piece, the high price of state, the high price of steel grievances which was also in Kuala you started with a quote from felonious monk that I thought was was sort of worth diving into here. They tried to get me to hate white people, but someone would always come along and spoil it. There's something about that quote that strikes me as so relevant to what's going on right now that we are not looking at people as individuals and that every time you do, you will be pleasantly surprised because most people are not walking around in this state of hate. Yeah, yeah. No, I think it striking I, I am juxtaposed that quote with another from the New York Times from New York Times op Ed published last year, which argued that black children should be taught to fear white children based on the history of racism in this country. And the quote was as against our Ghazi national hopes, I will teach my boys, my black boys to have profound doubts that friendship with white people as possible. Right? So that got published in the New York Times in two thousand seventeen Sarah Jong got hired having having written incredibly nasty tweets about. White people in two thousand eighteen by the New York Times. Right? I it's, it's, it's disturbing to me that you can't. You can't really find at this point on the left even on the mainstream left. Just these simple articulation that a person's race does not matter to their moral worthiness to their intellectual worthiness. It is it is an irrelevant character. You can't find the language of of of appeals to colorblind humanity virtually anywhere on the left at this point that that is disturbing to me. How shocking is it to you? Because I think people are still kinda shocked. You know, I've been banging this drum for quite some time and I think I see people waking up to it now and I'm like, man, how didn't you see this? You know these these last couple years because it's so obvious to me that we've gotten here. Yeah, no, it it is shy. I do remember growing. Up in public school system. In my town, we would have Martin Luther King day assemblies is very diverse town. Maybe twenty five thirty percent black and sixty percent white, and we would. We would get the, you know, the I have a dream style ethic around what it means to be human and how important wherever unimportant ones skin color is. And it seemed like such a simple just such a good argument to me and it is the best argument with regard to people's. You know, the the assumed, I guess. What what I mean to say here is that I've been in spaces at Columbia, for example, or conversations where my being black, it was obvious to me that there was an assumption of of moral worthiness or of kind of heightened moral knowledge. Man, I would have as a black person that a white person wouldn't have. And I think I think I, I'm not the first to make this analogy of course, but the re re religious analogy and the the analogy to original sin is pretty apt because it I mean the way this has a lot to do with black history also because the way the way I see it, they're kind of two ways to study history. There's the conventional way which is, you know, you study World War wind, you study the causes and consequences re different, takes on on on the significance. And once you've studied all you need to know you move onto the next topic, but then there's. As a religious way of studying history, which is it's not enough to know the facts. We have to go somewhere on Sunday ev- every single week and learn talk about the same stories over and over again. So this is it's, it's the difference between how an atheist learns about the life of Jesus and how a Christian is about the life of Jesus and relearn at every week for the rest of their life. In my view, how we're looking at the history of race relations in this country, the history of racism, we are more and more putting it in the religious category of history where you know, I can read a piece about the history of lynching in the New York Times almost once every two or three months, right? Lemme lynching is decades old crime at this point and Ali, I mean, Jesus chr- obviously it was a heinous stain on on this country's legacy within the number of deaths that that is is the highest amount quoted in the time. With regard to how many black people were lynched in this country is around four thousand right every single year twice that many black people die of homicide. And you just don't even hear about that in the New York Times. So what do you make of the fact? And so this is something that like Sean Hannity on talk about, he'll he'll say that again act the and now if you say, and then people will say that somehow that makes him racist focusing on black on black crime or something like that. So how do we have that conversation then? Because I think partly what's happening is the outrage. You know someone mentions it. He happens to be someone obviously on the right. I don't know what his intentions are. I don't know the guy, but he's he's talking about it. We're just said, people aren't talking about, yes, but then pays a heavy price to talk about it that then has the chill affect that it's like people are like, all right, I'm not gonna talk about it. So we can look at the crime statistics in Chicago every week and you. You should care about these statistics where there's people are white or black or whatever, but people are just like, I don't wanna touch it because I'd won these labels. Yeah, it is. It is decidedly. I mean, this is one of the reasons why I'm I don't see myself as a natural ally to Candice Owens, for example, because there's so many other things that she says that that that I don't agree with and. I, I guess it's the Sean Hannity problem too, because if you can't criticize Sean Hannity or Candice Owens for all of the things that that they're saying that are on unjustified. By the evidence in Kansas Kansas case you might be climate change or or whatever it is for Sean Hannity could be other things, then I guess you just have to be able to to make these subtle distinctions, but. At the end of the day, homicide is the leading cause of death for young black men aged fifteen to thirty four. According to the CDC it is not the leading cause of homicide for any other race or age group. Can we talk about that that I mean, I is it the case that we're, we're, we're so close to white people turning the hoses on us again. To the Sean Hannity and and they're supposedly deplorable followers that were just so the threat of white supremacy is so ever-present of resurgent white supremacy that we can't talk about the leading cause of death among young black men. That that that is not sustainable and the the fundamental problem I see with how the left in general things about race is that the concerns about race and racism are totally unattached to the degree to which black people are suffering on any given issue. Right? So we're talking about the leading cause of death for young black men. And I never read about this in the New York Times and I and I know that I won't. Right. So this is this is a problem that is central. It is. It is bigger than the problem with police violence. It is bigger than you know than the problem of microaggressions. It is bigger than the problems of of systemic bias. And yet there is there's virtually no concern for this on the left because the the way I see many progressives think about race issues is a perpetrator side concern, which is if the perpetrators. Of the problem are white that it's worth talking about if the perpetrators of the problem happened to be black and it's not we're talking about the problem with that is that it's untethered to any concern for the level of suffering on this side on the victim side, do you think it's a fairest nation to see this is the new racism in a weird way? Like it's almost uncomfortable to say it, but I had an educator in the UK here in the summer, Catherine burble sing. And that's basically what she said that these people are now the racists that the racist ideas of the day are actually coming out of the left now. I don't want to use the same tactics, right? I don't want to sit here and be like they're all racist and blah, blah, blah, because we know that that doesn't really get us anyway. The general idea of that, do you think that that's a fair way to frame things? I, I wouldn't frame it. I mean, the way I would frame it is that there is a kind of racism on the left, and it's the kind of racism where the New York Times higher hires, a writer who says that who celebrates the idea that white people. People stop breathing, right, and doesn't apologize for it, no concern with how that how that's going to translate to white people in this country who have vastly less privileged than the tech writer at the New York Times the. What about that statement that they issued defending her? Yeah, you saw that were saying about the hate. She gets as a young Asian woman. What that that's new thing that you can that you get to be racist because you've gotten trolled online? Right? Well, yeah. I mean that. So coming back to the question that is that that is, I'm happy to call that kind of racism for sure. Age. The only reason I would say there I wouldn't go as far as to say they are. The new racist is because they are still racist on the other side, and I fully expect there to always be some amount of racists in society and some amount of races incidents, like the way this is another problem with the way. Many on the left. Think about race is that they tend to view the. Problem of racism, kind of like we view the problem with smallpox which is to say something that can be fully eradicate it down to the very last person who has it, and then we can put a date on the time when smallpox is no longer a problem forever. Whereas I and I would argue anyone who's really thinking rationally about this problem should view racism as more more like a problem like murder, right? Like the murdering New York City's to be ten times higher than it was today. Just twenty years ago. It was. It was absolute carnage. So the the rate is it's come down tenfold. New York is notoriously safe at this point. Something like two hundred murders two or three hundred murders last year, right? What would it take to get the murderer down to zero to the point where there was not a single murder in New York City, you'd probably murder everybody, yes, you have to. You have to embrace totally totalitarian vibe from the top that could be done, but it would not be worth what it took to get there. You'd hit diminishing returns. So I've you the problem of reducing racism, reducing racist incidents against black people as a problem like homicide rather than smallpox which is to say, you can certainly reduce it and we have massively. But there is a point at which in a country of three hundred fifty million. There will always be enough people who are racist to to justify a certain amount of races incidents and to fight it beyond that endlessly you hit diminishing returns. Yeah. And also that it's depressing and it kinda sucks, but people can be racist like privately, you can be racist. You know, you can't discriminate against people and there's all sorts. Lots of reasons that you can't bring that into public life. But in your own mind in your own home, you can be, I would prefer people not be, but that they're trying to radically it like something that's actually just part of the mind. Yeah, you want to. You want to educate people enough so that they hopefully won't hold those views, but that is the diminishing returns because you're literally going to be in people's houses at that point, right? Yeah, it's a, it's a question of not. Yeah. I guess there's a question of what your view of human nature is comes down to very fundamental pillars of one's political ideology, which is, do you have a kind of utopian view of human nature where there's nothing tragic about us? Nothing flawed about us and all of the flaws come from bad ideas in the culture, and humans are naturally poised to be just perfectly selfless until we get ruined by society that that I think there's no reason to believe that at this point, right? Chimpanzees murder. And like we're, we're animals in the animal kingdom. It's not to say that we're our human nature is fundamentally evil either. It's it's clearly there's a, there's a wide range of potential there, but there's no no reason to assume that we're volved to be not racist or that revolved to be woke perfectly woke or that it's possible to get to a point where everyone in society has been fully per. Purged of every ounce of evil in their heart. I mean, that is such a utopian outlook and like I said the to the extent that you're fixated on that goal to the exclusion of the costs of your fixation. Once you hit diminishing returns, you will be finding a fight that is a net bad for society. This episode of the Rubin report comes to thanks to our friends over a keeps guys. Let's talk about saying, no one wants to think about, but we've all worried about hair loss. Maybe you've noticed you have a little less hair than you used to have, but you're not sure there's a real solution, but thing is there's only two clinically proven medications that let you keep the hair you have. And now there's an inexpensive way to get them. You don't need to lose your hair if you don't want to. I have to tell you about keeps for just five minutes now and a dollar a day keeps his coming to the rescue, so you never have to worry about hair loss. Again, we decided to give the ordering try. We snap. Some photos answered a couple of simple questions and got a prompt response from the licensed doctors over keeps getting started with keeps his truly so. Easy signing up for keeps takes less than five minutes. The entire ordering process was so quick. 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And that was definitely one of my red pill moments, so to speak. I was not prepared. I heard new information. I did research after that. Subsequently, I've had many people on this show and many conversations that have led me to more of Larry's original premise. So I guess I when you when you saw that moment, was that the first time you would ever see me do anything because that's what will tell me. And I'm like, oh, I don't think it was the first time, but I think I mean, I don't envy anyone who's debating Larry elder on anything. He's pretty devastating have been kind of refreshing though when you saw this moment where he laid it out. Yeah, you know, there was no counter because there is no counter, right? Well, yeah, he, he, he did with you. There is he he went through each specific venue in which supposedly there is this big systemic racism problem where the system is rigged in such a way that it doesn't require any individual in the system to be racist in order for the system to spit out racist outcomes. That's essentially the idea of systemic racism. So he went, he went with you through. He said, just name name a place in society where you think systemic racism exists and he just. Basically destroyed each one with the specifics of of the case. And I'm not going to do better job than he did there. He's capable of doing. But there there's a bigger picture way to test the systemic racism hypothesis which is to take to populations where I, it's, it's a very messy, crude science experiment, but to take to populations where you're holding systemic racism, constant, namely black Americans like myself and black immigrants, especially black immigrants from the West Indies and their children. You're talking about immigrants from Jamaica, Barbados other places in the West Indies and specifically their children, their American born children. So these are people you could not tell apart from black leg. You couldn't tell if I didn't tell you that I wasn't the child of Jamaican immigrant or something. Right. And you find the thing about these is that these two populations differ in many ways. Some some some ways are very hard to quantify, but they differ culturally, they differ for all kinds of reasons because partially because the kind of immigrant who gets out of Jamaica differs systematically is going to be disproportionately intelligent, disproportionately, hardworking, whatever the traits are that get you from Jamaica to New York. Say that's a cluster of attributes that that makes that population differ. But there's there's one thing that is not different, which is they're subjected to whatever level of systemic racism exists. So t Thomas Sowell has done good work on back in the seventies. He showed that second generation west indie, West Indians living in the same city as black Americans were earning fifty, eight percent more right? So they're, they're both being treated to whatever degree badly by white people there, whatever this, whatever system you want us, suppose holding people back. Is equally affecting both of them, the Columbia sociologist. Van TRAN has a great essay in which the this this difference is brought out. You find neighborhoods of of black Americans right next to neighborhoods of black West Indians in New York. They're equally segregated from white people, so it gets rid of, you know, the the, the idea that being segregated by seller living around people who only looked like you is inherently a a disadvantage. It gets around the the policing issue because of these populations are being police. The police can't tell the difference between the second generation west in the end and a black person. It gets around whatever level of systemic racism is or isn't in in the pipeline with regard to schools and you find wildly different outcomes. You find, you know, rate of high school graduation, much higher for black West Indians of. Rate of enrollment in college, much higher rate of professional occupations, much higher crime lower, right? So this suggests to me that there are that the role of systemic racism to to whatever degree it exists is is minimal at this point and the the, there's a whole narrative built around the idea that this is the primary obstacle facing black people and it's worth noting. I don't. I don't think most black people actually believe this because I mean they're various polls to site here, but there's there's one from pew that that asked black people without hi- without college educations has has raised. How has your race held you back at all in life? Sixty percent said no, it's a recent pupil. Another Gallup poll asked is bias. The main issue facing you in jobs and housing sixty percent against said, no, the the Harvard sociologist. Ethan, fos has done extensive polling. If the black community and found that disconnected black youth, which would be a black youth without who aren't in schools and don't have jobs the people on the lowest rung of society. Something something around thirty percent of them think the system is rigged and seventy percent don't. So what we're getting is we're getting the voices of black people who believe the systemic racism narrative promoted to the to the most powerful media positions in our country. So we're getting the impression right? This is in uniform view and it's not right. So this is sort of Jesse Jackson's Al sharp downs. They get moved up because they're giving sort of simple answers. So I guess it it hearkens the question, then I can ask this either way. What is it that the West Indian immigrants are doing right? Or what is it that the other folks are doing wrong? Yeah. I mean, you can answer that in either direction you'll reverse well party, and part of it is just immigration selection factors that I mentioned. Right. So the the kind of Jamaican or bar Badie and who makes it off the island to New York likely to be disproportionately hard-working disproportionate. Proportionately x. for whatever x. factor is. And so in that sense that the direct comparison can be misleading, but. Just analysing why these two populations differ you find West Indian immigrants, more likely to come from a two parent home, more likely to have had a more classically socially conservative upbringing, which is, you know, you don't talk back to your parents parents or rather strict there downsides, of course to that silo, parenting, but. Basically what I'm saying is that their cultural factors that are important that differ between these two groups, right? You find if they're they're many. I mean, this is this is where the conversation for many people gets especially on company. Yeah, right. It's the idea that every culture every subculture is identical in the behave behavioral patterns that are inculcated and wherever there is some wherever there is a disparity in some outcome. It's not possible that culture accounts for some or most of of that disparity, which I think is very silly idea. Well, completely nonsense, yeah. Yeah. Cultures are different different people. Different groups, put different emphasis on certain things. Don't get more unveil Isam, but more on educations of Warren sports or whatever the hell, whatever the hell it is. So when you hear larryelder make the argument, you know something around until nineteen seventy-two. The black family had a higher rate of staying in marriages. And then he lays out the reasons that he believes policies of the Democrats destroy. Royd all that that that obviously resonates with you. Right? Because you're, you're giving me some piece of this both answers. I think resonate or went back to family of marriage and some sort of conservative ideals, right. Well, yeah. I mean, that's a very complex people hate when you talk when everyone talks about yes, about family, just absolutely hate it. It is a fact that black the rate of two parent homes and marriages was pretty similar to the white rate until the sixties it is. It is a, it's a matter of scholarly dispute as to what was the cause it. I think it's certain at this point, there was no one. 'cause welfare state may have had something to do with it, but I think it may have just been changing norms in the culture. What because we're seeing the same thing happen in in the white working class as well. Now with the decline of of two parent homes to a lesser extent than than has happened in the black community. Yes. So so I guess what? What? Yeah. So I mean, we could talk about some of the the most important behavioral patterns that are different between black families and white families and Asian families. I mean, there are some statistics that I just I don't see any way in which this could possibly be explained by systemic racism. For example, one is that if you ask thirteen year olds, if they've had their first sexual experience yet you get nine percent of of white saying, yes, you get twenty one percent of black people saying, yes, right. So it's more than a twofold difference there and that has everything to do with family dynamics with with there, not being two parents in the home. It is a development issue more than it is an issue of treatment by white people. Right? I, I have another piece in Colette called black American culture and and the racial wealth gap where I talk about spending differences and you Nielsen, the marketing firm has done done research on this. Found that the average black woman is more likely to own a luxury vehicle than the average white woman. Despite the fact that the average black family has one tenth, the wealth of of the average average white family spending patterns on on jewelry and and expensive clothes are very different in the black community. Whatever you want to say about these from an ethical. This is not. I mean, I'm not. Ethical judgment rate is. I mean, I'm not finger-wagging people saying do x. don't do why I'm saying. There are. There are entire books written by respected, left wing scholars about issues like wealth or income, or that had just don't mention a single one of these facts as if it's not relevant, right. So what's what's the through line than or the connection between all of this and the welfare state. Because the more that I've explored these ideas, the more that I am starting to buy that almost is the the real problem here that we've given a certain amount and then it's just human nature. People don't want to stop being on the dole that has nothing to do with race. You could give it to anyone. But in this case we happened to be talking about black Americans, but I can give you just one simple example, which is my sister lives in in Manhattan, not that far from you actually, and she's in a building that's part subsidized. So there's a lot of black people in the building that have been there for generations. Now that are there subsidized my sister and her husband to kids. They're not rolling in DOE. They're paying full market price, but the people that are in the subsidized housing, it's almost impossible for them to leave. I don't even blame them because they're paying next to nothing. And if they wanted to work more, they'd probably and then get off the subsidy the subsidies, they probably have to leave the Bill. In the first place early of somewhere worse. So we end up with this horrific catch twenty two. That again, I don't blame. I don't put this on race. It just seems to be affecting people of a certain race Moore. Yes, I think. I mean, I think it's clear that there was a point in in in the late sixties and seventies where the welfare state was clearly incentivizing counterproductive behavior disproportionately among black people. I mean, the reason I, yeah, I I don't. I think we need a welfare state. I think there's there's really no free market. There's no capitalist economy in the world that doesn't have one because they're just and you know, people's jobs are being taken by automation, and that's only going in one direction and we clearly need a welfare state and we need one that doesn't incentivize counterproductive behavior and we haven't always had that. And when you say. Visit? You mean some sort of social safety net. That's okay. Because I think people would you say welfare state? I think people have a different sort of connotation. Yeah, I mean, social. I mean, something that catches the people who can't really can't help themselves who can't trade their skills for money in the market. Yeah, with so. So then how do we untethered the issue of people that are now stuck in that machine where every time you talk about it, your call to race? No, I mean, this is it is extremely pernicious because I think it's clear that the welfare state the way it was rolled out in the sixties and seventies had bad effects for black people. Right? It's it's it's hard to fully explain the decline in two parent homes without noticing that a black mother in the early seventies stood to lose money by getting married to a guy right. Because of the perverse incentives of the welfare state that said, it's not the just because the welfare state. It was one of the causes of the decline of the black family doesn't imply that taking it away would repair it. So I think I think that is something Charles Murray, for example, wrote the big book in the eighties that made him big losing ground, which criticized the welfare state very much along these grounds. But I think even he has acknowledged that at this point, removing it once you've said it all into motion. It's not obvious that removing it is a cure which is which is tragic, but true. Yeah, it's it's a real tragedy because then it's like, I mean, this is where you would definitely have a difference of opinion with Kansas. We're sure argument is rip the band aid, rip the band aid, let the pieces fall where they may. I, I don't know what her policy is on then helping the poorest of the poor, whatever. Like are you literally going to be kicking people out of their houses? I I, I don't know what the answer to that is. Yeah, but I think there's, there's a growing feeling, I think, at least of a certain set of people that it's not working. Your acknowledging it's not working. And these little band aid fixes seemingly only make it worse. Yeah, it's, I think it's a very complex because there there are some. There are some elements of the social safety net that I think economists agree are working like the earned income tax credit, which actually incentivizes you to work. It helps the worse off people in society without basically corrects the the massive mistake of welfare in the Lyndon Johnson era. But yeah, no, it's it's a complex issue. Yeah, sure. So I hate to talk about race this whole time. I, it's like kind of annoying. I know it's what you mostly right about what what else is kind of on your mind like what are the other issues that you care about? I mean, we can keep going on that, but I always feel like it's like it's that's also a sort of tragedy of all of this. It's like your whole world view is to move past all this and yet because of that you get thrust into the conversation. It's weird, weird, psychological condition, I suppose. Yes, it is. Is that just drive you crazy in general? Yeah. I mean, I don't. Before we move racist, not something I find inherently interesting. Yeah, I think it is like when I have when I have a free moment to to read a book, I'm not ordering the race book because but but at the same time it it is a topic that's loom so large in our politics and so much of what is said makes so little sense that I it it. It just gets to me. So I have to say something, but it's not something I enjoy. I mean, what I really enjoy is philosophy and science. So so when I have free moments, I, I tend to read things in those in those dramas. Yeah. While you're working for the right lady Clare collect because that's what she cares about you. This interview is brought to you by our friends over at Bravo company manufacturing. When our founding fathers created the constitution, the first thing they did was insure the rights of an individual to share ideas without limitation by the government, and you might know how much I value free speech by now in. The second amendment, the founders guaranteed an individual, the right to protect themselves. Owning a rifle is an awesome responsibility and building rifles is no different starting to garage by marine veteran more than two decades ago. Bravo. Company manufacturing or for short, builds a professional grade product which is Bill to combat standards. This is because BCM believes that the same level of protection should be provided to every American regardless if they're a private citizen or a professional Bravo. Company manufacturing is not a sporting arms company. 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Company manufacturing head on over to Bravo company MFG dot com where you can discover more about their products, special offers and upcoming news. That's Bravo. Company m. f. g. dot com need more convincing, find out even more about BCM and the awesome people who make their products at YouTube dot com. Slash Bravo company USA now back to the interview. So actually we can shift a little bit. So you attended an event that there's an idea w group in New York put together. I was put together in like two or three days. It was me and Eric Weinstein, and Faizal Muhtar, and Melissa Chen or just kind doing like. ICTY w one o one stuff, and you asked me an interesting question during the QNA's, so I'll let you present the question and then I want to hear your answer actually before I repeat my answer. Yeah. So my question was essentially there are a lot of people who really don't like the intellectual dark web think it's just a bunch of cranks who are, you know, playing footsie with the outright in this objectionable way and totally dismissed the whole thing. But then there are there are many other people who think, well, you know, I I like I like half of the people in intellectual dark web. I don't maybe like the other half, but I think it's they have come in nuanced take on it, but they're really what where one loses them is the fact that you know you've had Stefan Mullen. No, I don't know. Molly, right. So this is this character that people view as objectionable to whatever degree. I don't know. I don't follow him so I don't know whether they should or shouldn't view him that way. Yeah, but you or Sam Harris has had Charles Marie on the podcast which many he just has a terrible reputation on the left largely undeserved or Joe Rogan head, Alex Jones on, we can do this infinitum and it seems like that is is the last place where people who might otherwise see this phenomenon as good get off the ship or I've had, I think I've had conversations with people where that was kind of the last trench to die in in terms of criticizing the phenomenon. So my question was, what do you like? What do you think about this? Do you think? I mean, this is also a criticism that Barry Weiss raised in her in her piece about it. So I guess my answer to that would be. I am. I mean, well, do you do you know this guy, Darrell Davis. He he's a black guy who did a documentary, don't remember the name of it where he met with the white supremacy. He met with Ku Klux Klan members as a black person. Yeah, and just hung out with them. Talk to them about various issues became friends with them, right? So imagine the psychological courage this takes to sit across from someone who literally thinks you are an inferior kind of human being and to put that aside and just expand to your circle of empathy to include them preemptively incredibly inspirational. So and he ends up getting over two hundred Ku Klux Klan members to renounce their membership, and he keeps their robes in his closet as a kind of trophy of having derived them. Okay. And then he gets harshly criticized from blacks, black lives matter for having having done this. Which is which I find to be the most galling iron in the world because we're talking about a person who has done more to reduce racism in this society than almost anyone I could name in black lives matter. Right. He is. He is gone like many, many progressive activists. They tend to go to the spaces that are actually most progressive already and try to make them even more progressive. So they show up on the university campuses already the most progressive places on planet earth and then accused them of being systemically racist. Right? So we're talking about a guy who actually went into the trenches belly of the beast exactly and was successful in de radicalizing people from white racism. Though the point the point I'm making here is not not to compare, obviously, Charles worry or Stefan to Ku Klux Klan member. My point is we ought to be expanding. The range of people were willing to talk to and disagree with. And I think that insofar as you're able to challenge people or just expose spo-, expose people's ideas. I think that in the long run as uncomfortable as it is counterintuitive as it is tends to tends to be better. Yeah, so I'll just repeat it quickly, but that in essence, that last portion especially really was my answer. Now I, if some of us Rogin me in San particularly, we interview people so we can't say we're for, you know, put her -ality of ideas and we want to talk to people we disagree with and all that and then only talk to people we agree with. So that means we are going to talk to some of these characters without getting into any of the specifics of the people that I've had on the show. Of course. Or sometimes somebody you may not ask the right question here or there? I'm not. I'm not even saying that that's what I did or didn't do, but you like, otherwise, we're not taking any risks and the group of people that will talk to become infinitely smaller and smaller and smaller, and also we'll be sort of, we'll be hostages to people that don't like us in the first place. And that's what I'm more concerned about. It's like, I don't want people who don't want any conversation to be happening at all to have ownership over who I'm going to talk to. Now on any specific moment, could any of us do something a little bit differently? Sure. But in essence, you're asking about the gate keeping that Barry was talking about. I don't even know that it's it's for me to say, and as I said before, you know, we don't even have. It's not like we're walking around with laminated cards, and we go to a secret meeting somewhere, but I think the best sunlight, the best disinfectant I just I just fundamentally believe that. And as far as I know, no one was hurt by any of the interviews that I've done. And I think I've, I've. Helped a lot of people that were maybe into some of those ideas. You know, that was that people were giving me a, that's the day, Daryl Davis, phenomenon, eight. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, nobody's lost. I mean, that's what I really believe. And maybe that's a little rose colored glasses of me. But I believe that you know when when people were giving me crap for doing Alex Jones, it's like forget what he thinks about things for a moment. Clearly hundreds of thousands or millions of people are watching this. I came on on a live show. I said, whatever. I believe I didn't lie about anything. I said the same things I say here, and then I got emails from his people saying, you know, I never heard of diesel liberal talk before I watched your interview with Brett Weinstein, so like, wow, that's pretty cool, man. So I just think perhaps we. And I mean, you and I, in this case, we just have a little bit more. Tolerance for. I don't think if someone hears something, it's going to immediately infect them and then they're going to take that infection and infect other people. But I think a lot of people operate in that prison, I think so. I mean, one of the reasons I asked this question at the event is glad you did buy them. Yeah, yeah, is because for example, Charles Murray has re tweeted some of my pieces and I've gotten into exchanges with some of my critics where I've, I've kind of talked them down off the ledge of me being a sellout or convinced them that I'm I'm operating in good faith and the trench they're dying and criticizing me is well, Charles Murray re tweeted, you and he is x, y, and z. Therefore I think a, that's just that's like two layers of ad hominem ad hominem is attacking you instead of your belief but attacking someone else instead of your. That's a bit much yet. Ad hominem toy. Over, but we seem to be in this in this place. Now where people like lists, you know, that's PLC is making lists of people that are bad people. You know there was this alternative influence or graph that you probably saw by to link together. I didn't even know probably ten or fifteen of the people on there, and I don't, you know, and I looked at the list after whether including me in this like crazy, whatever it was white supremacist listening, not only that, I not know plenty of the people several of them I've muted because they hate me. So it's like, like just come together with anyone that has walked past you. Oh, you shook hands with that guy. You didn't know he was too bad, you're, you're screwed, man. Yeah, that's it. No, I think I was telling this before we filmed, but I think we live in a McCarthy era with regard to especially racism but also other other 'isms. I hope historians look back on it as that, but we're getting. We're getting people fired for for saying the n word in an anti-racist context. You know Papa John's, for example, the CEO of that got fired for saying the n. word there was new pushback on that guy, said it in the context of anti-racist raising recalling his the racist of his youth and the heinous things they would say, right and gets fired, gets his name taken off the gym. His local hometown just gets his reputation, deep, six, and right. So like this is happening happened a month later to to to this executive net flicks who's in a in a meeting about offensive words in that flexes comedy context. So how do you have a meeting about offensive words without saying offensive words, unless you're just going to be talking like alphabet. Time. So he says this fired. So these are nobody upon reflection thinks that these people are racists. It is completely I, it is. It is analogous to McCarthyism in that sense, and the word racism has been denuded. So fully of its of its moral Valence and its moral charge at this point that you know people were caring, less and less about actual racism to. That's a fear here. Like once you once you strip this word of all all its moral charge, then you have a boy who cried wolf scenario, which ends up backfiring spectacularly. And I would argue that that is happening. We're seeing a surge on the on the far right as well. So I think that was also my concern. I mean for the election, I did plenty of videos about you. Gotta stop calling Trump Hitler. Yeah, because if he is not Hitler and for all the reasons that people don't like them, the guy's not Hitler and you keep. Doing that. You won't even realize when the real bad guys go and the people that would be sympathetic to your views will no longer listen to you because they'll you you as the boy who cried wolf and Bill Maher Bill Maher called himself out for doing this for calling Bush and Romney racists or whatever it was. He said that Romney hated women. Yes, yes. And he called himself out for being hyperbolic so that when when trunk Trump came along, who who actually has done clearly has said, clearly misogynous things is alleged to have said some things that if he did say them are are clearly racist. People don't care anymore because they've been so sullied. They've been called racist thousand times by the pundits at MSNBC and it's it's been true, maybe ten percent of the times, but not true. Like the funniest gaze of this to me was when when Trump called Omarosa dog right. Wash u turn on NBC MSNBC after this or read the New York Times. It is just obvious to those people that this is a racist slurs he's called this black woman a dog. This is obviously racist, and if you're defending it, you're a racist to okay. And then you if you have an internet connection, you look at the other people Trump has directly called the dog. You find MAC Miller. Before he passed away, you find David Axelrod. You find Adriana Huffington, you find white person after white person that he is directly called the dog not said they did something like a dog because he he likes that brunch into right, but he's called a white person after right prison dog. There's no reason to believe that this was a racist incident, and yet every pundit at MSNBC is saying that it is and anyone who likes Trump and watch his Fox News. They're getting these clips exported from MSNBC seeing themselves called as racist by called racist. By implication or by association. And then seeing someone like Tucker, Carlson, who I have I have reservations about, but seeing some Tucker, Carlson, make perfect sense about the just destroy this view with with simple logic and facts and imagine how how refreshing it is to have someone like Tucker doing that. And obviously, like you're, you're going to get tired of being called a racist in cases when it's so obviously not true, and there's just a lack of due diligence. There's a lack of any concern for for facts and for logic, and that ends up having a very a bad effect on the other end because now Trump, I mean, there's some things Trump has said for which racism I think is the best explanation. I don't think he's a clan member. I think he's a very mild kind of New York, racist of his era. You know their their degrees of racism in other words. But the point is it's like the reason that. Trump voters. I think for the most part, excuse him on some of the things he said is not because not for the most part because of a random upsurge in racism that happened in two thousand sixteen but wasn't present the past eight years. You like their counties that went for Obama twice that went for Trump. It is. It is. I think it's largely because people are absolutely sick of being tarred as racists untethered to the facts of the specific cases. Man. Now we've got just the match made in hell. We've got a group that calls everyone racist the guy who you know is happy to bite them on every bit of it and use that as fuel to to get his base gone. Yeah. So what do you somehow I said, we're going to shift that race and we went right back to all right. We're going to try to finish up sending us, but what, what are you even consider yourself politically these days? If I, if I was trying to label you, I mean, I have a sense. You know you're somewhere in that classical liberal situation, but does that even matter to you? Do you do you think of yourself a certain way? I think if you can be gender fluid, you should be able to be fluid at this point, think white woman. I find your politic things used to be quite breezy as that. I appreciate that. But I think it is. It is strange. That is. Politics is a social construct political ideologies. These are fully social contracts and it seems like we're getting more and more rigid with the degree to which we take them seriously. Obviously, once you take ideas seriously, but I don't see anything to be gained from anchoring myself to conservatism or liberalism or libertarianism. Even though I find wisdom and all of these three political ideologies. So, yeah. I mean, I think I think if I can if I can make politically fluid me. That'd be. That'd be great. I will see what I can do. Give me one other thing. Besides race, what are you doing for fun as man? I'm reading a reading a lot about I'm taking metaphysics taking philosophy language in mind, both of which I read in benefit. All right. You got political future in front of you. Oh, God, no. This problem right people often ask me that. No, I would never go into politics. Actually, people assume that about me, which I think is really interesting because I detest politics. I hate it so much. Yeah, no, I don't. I don't know. I don't know why I give that vibe off, but it's, yeah, I cannot see myself as a politician to seem that's the problem is been a pleasure minute. Likewise. All right. For more on Coleman. Follow him on Twitter at cold x. men.

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I love you and I Minshew

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1:08:45 hr | 11 months ago

I love you and I Minshew

"Welcome to the meantime show featuring any the only. NFL podcast we're one of the hosts thinks he i. I the moment when he's on a walking looks owner wise relieving himself. Pi and thank you for that pity laugh. I am taking this from Sunny South Beach Miami on my new space gray laptop where the buzz for the hometown team name is palpable so I am joined by the dolphins reporter day porter today dolphins. I started screwing. Everybody's everybody's laughing. I don't think you're out of the norm. I'm going to try to keep the water bottles away from your laptop today so you don't pull it off performance that's that's. Cam Wolf who we were talking about where the show is name is cameron and I was asking if you I got my camera cameron and he was kind kind of dodgy about I mean I'm cool with whatever you go for. I'm not like the what was what was the guy who was really particular about his name on my show. No no the quarterback Oh Oh we'll Mitch trubisky. I know my mom's not going to have a preference either way about which way you should say my name so I think I can. I was seeing that the Mitch Mitchell thing when a couple weeks ago there was episode of succession. I don't know if you watch that. There's a character named. Greg in he didn't show up the entire episode at the end go by Gregory now and I was thinking about Mitch trubisky risky showing up and saying I go by Mitchell now which would be a hard move now. I feel like you have to be playing well to make name demands and I don't think he can't he's. He's not playing that well yeah. That's uncertain yeah. Well come guns blazing from the dolphins reporter throwing flames yeah. No I listen I'm Meena. Misna and my whole life my name's been mispronounced and misspelled and I just took it because I'm a Beta like oh we would play soccer and they would have to say their names they'd always minor or may not and I'm like Ah. Yes Georgia's be whatever you know. It's like not worth it. you're wearing a Mariners Jersey pandering to me shout out to Ken Griffey junior you know again him and swinging. Sammy Emme Sosa funny enough from our favorite dissimilar very similar dissimilar. I guess at this point I probably GonNa say Ken. griffey junior is my favorite. I think that's the safer pick these days. King Junior is like very unambiguously beloved. I feel like he's a very safe athlete to say is your favorite is nobody's he's. GonNa argue with an almost unanimously made into the hall of Fame Separate Beaumont. He's always saying he was the money doesn't like Christina Hoff inaudible. He's got like a few athletes. He'll like kind of yeah. I don't WanNa get never get into it with him. I don't want to. I don't want any reasons like legitimate reasons why you don't sound like her cousins I was about to say speak because we're not the vikings this week. We're going to talk about the dolphins because obviously you know the team better than anyone. I am fascinated by them. I think there's beyond just laughing and and sank there's so many interesting facets to the story the future of the team. I actually wanted to do what it's actually like to cover the team. Which I think is so interesting and we're talking a little bit about what you referred to before. The show is the meaner bowl briefly that of course rams seahawks I just don't WanNa get dragged by Russell Czar. I see hawks fan but before we do. There's there's a couple of games. I WanNa talk about in-depth this week. that I find pretty interesting I want to talk about the panthers who are back in the thick of it surprise me and beat Houston. I WanNa talk about shoe mania but I wanNA talk to you about packers occurs cowboys which is probably the game. I mean I guess Browse Niners who knew right the niners will see that I know I know I haven't talked about the niner's on on his pot. I was planning to last week and they're on the by. I'm GonNa talk about them next week. niners fans don't worry. I've been wanting to take time and actually they only they are in the NFC. Yes yes so it's crazy. I actually liked to watch teams play before I talk about them. So that's coming from a place of ignorance. I just haven't had time with a lot of football either. I don't don't think they've played anybody yet. Have they and good yeah well. I mean who knows what the bucks are right but we'll talk about that. I mean I think this this game. We'll be an interesting test for them with what we saw from Cleveland but packers cowboys I would say are firmly entrenched as in the top. You're the defending the NFC is like a as you. They have see you've got. I think very very clear upper class with Kansas City in New England and then there's the rest and and then yeah there's like a few okay teams like the browns the ravens the bills held their own the NFC is it's just anyone's game at this point. Yeah there's probably like seven or eight teams that you could say legitimately have a chance to the Superintendent of c totally in AFC's literally Ci Right Patriots like I'd be shocked if one of those teams run to the super so I think the the packers and cowboys are unambiguously in that seven or eight team tier both coming off losses this week both got BRAC brought back down to Earth a little bit you know I think the packers lost finally looked like the eagles team. I thought they would be there still some injuries there I find them interesting as well and I look forward to talking about them soon but the cowboys also you know again. It came down to Earth a little bit but I still think they're very very good team. See I have a little bit of different view in a little bit of sterling social media this week but I think the cowboys are pretenders the pretender there then let's start. I was Gonna serve the the packers especially because for those no no cam used to cover the Tien so he knows Matt Leflore. Well L. in kind of his tendencies and I find that really interesting but the cowboys interesting too because in this loss I think going into this game. Kellen Moore honestly was like the wonderboy of the NFL after three weeks. People were anointing him the next I know speaking of the mcvay bees are not what is the exception so this was the Kellyn more comedown yeah if you will and it wasn't just that they lost it was the way they lost because they looked like the from an offensive perspective. The defense was excellent when you talk about them. They looked like the two thousand eighteen cowboys to me. They do like exe- had nothing going. It seemed like they loaded the box. The whole scouting report I think against the cowboys for years has been you. Stop Zeki. Stop the offense and you know. Dat Cat played extremely extremely well. I guess all over the first two or three games of the season and we're starting to rewrite the narrative about deck and saying he deserve to get paid but the offense last last game look looked exactly like you mentioned yeah. Stop Zeke and you stop the cowboys and if you do that then what are the cowboys half right exactly and I think what was so oh frustrating for me. I mean one not just that. Kelly Moore seem to go away from some of the creativity a lot less play action some of the stuff you've been very successful at but but you're right if felt like they were running. Zeke over and over even though it wasn't working and by the way actually it wasn't just because he was facing doc boxes. It's big I did pull the number so when he did face eight-man boxes escape he ran for two yards was not great but it wasn't even the the saints didn't even have to stack them anytime because they're run. Defense is so good and it was like they forgot the saints run defense excellent last year do their defensive line is incredible well. I think people still have the misdemeanor misnomer that the saints had this terrible defray. They've had it for years and his drew brees carrying this team. I would argue that the saints defense is better than their offense at air right now and I think that's going to be their calling card. Even when drew breeze comes back you play extremely well stopping the run you force teams to pass on U Marshon lattimore starting to have a bounce back beck year lockdown American Lori in this game. Although he looked yeah you did yeah yeah. He played well yeah. I think that you know you got teddy. Bridgewater Mr you hall. I don't know if you know Teddy Bridgewater. Mr U-haul here is called Mr us from Liberty City. He pulls up to his hood and has a u haul truck full of goods where he it gives out. Bicycles is two kids the most perfect person he's Gregor. Have you ever met anyone who doesn't like Teddy Bridgewater. No no he's universally had a clip after the press conference this week where they were talking about his stats and he was like I had zero stats over the last couple of years. I'm winning in light and it seemed like like if anybody says so you might think. Oh Yeah Teddy genuine real do he deserves everything. I think a lot of it is because of his name though Teddy I mean yes. He seems like a genuinely good human being and you know an amazing comeback story but that his name is teddy and he has like that cute face or theodore he wouldn't the imagine of alternate universe where Teddy Bridgewater is named. Dan Not cute not as army does not as loveable. It seems pretty obvious here's to me but back to the saints defense versus the cowboys offense. I think you're right. The same Stevens is incredibly underrated in particular that that line they added Malcolm Brown from New England Glenn. I mean the pass rush wasn't EXP- incredible in this game but they didn't really need to be because what they were doing was. They were actually just dropping. A ton of guys is back and kind of daring Dacca throw and when you lock down Ari I think what you saw in this game was a concern I think I had about the cowboys coming into the season which wasn't the case in the first few games which they don't have a ton of depths behind Amari Cooper receiver position. who were you afraid of no outside of Amari Cooper so like even like Jason Wind with this? He's running off with four fumble by a moment where you could hear his mind like. I'm too old for this. Yeah take me back. I don't WanNA bending over. It was like you know when you get older like bend over and you're like this doesn't feel the way used to you could see Z. Like him age in real time. He made a decision that this last year at that. I didn't look great yeah yeah but no. I think you're absolutely right with cowboys offense winced. You've got to figure out like if I'm defensive. Coordinator is a priority one. Stop Z. Prior to Stop Amari and then once you do that. What Can Dallas do on one on one coverage rich that you can be afraid of them and that's what I think the saints did they channels them one on one plot and Marcus Davenport and Trey Hendrickson did a really good job at front against that the cowboys offense line they were winning offense and we kinda anoint the cowboys assorted this best often at the line and they have a lot of success there but I think this year. They've they've shown a little bit of well. I mean that I think brings us to the real concern here which is Tyron Smith now. He's weak tweet so he went out with this game. It was a high ankle sprain. I believe Chesapeake. He's a week to week which has to be a massive relief for cowboys fans because when we would go back and have these debates over who is more important duckers. Zeke every time you actually looked at six. Excuse tyron. Smith absence was killing everyone so I think without him and then bringing bring us to this game against the packers pass rush that has been pretty good even though Karen Planning is back is solid and has experienced. That's gotta be an issue going into this game. If the packers are really trying to attack this team. I'd WanNa see them. MM giblets happy and really test Dak and see how you can handle the pressure because you know I think that we went back as at his worse is when the game in the onus is on him and I think even throughout the years as still been the calling heart like I I was watching them in person guest Miami and for the better part of that half I was was like who is this quarterback. He was throwing a lot of like like terrible passes up in the air and it's just like you know the dolphins have no. Paschel wrote like negative pass Russia and he's still finding ways to get into trouble and I'm like what's going to happen when he plays real defenses happen if adversity strikes so that's why I believe the cowboys are pretenders because I don't trust. I don't Trust Act to get it done when things are taken around them away from him so interesting to cover the dolphins because when you watch quarterback you're seeing them through you such different. Oh you're not succeeding again. Yes obviously turned it around around later. We'll talk about that more. Yeah I mean I think this the tough match-up for them with Smith. Ow I think killing more I I do think he will get back to some of the stuff he was succeeding and this kind of one of those games where you know perhaps there was kind of underestimated what the saints run defense brought to the table on the way they were. GonNa play him with more guys in coverage but the packers packers. I think defense is probably capable of executing a similar plan. I don't think they're run. Defense is as good as New Orleans. They have a better secondary but the packers run defense just got shredded by Philadelphia so you know potentially you actually she could. C- C- continue to get the ball. I actually have been really impressed with the the packers even through the loss against Philadelphia. I'm really High Philadelphia and I think that a lot of the reasons that they're kind of looking like they are is because of injuries and because of just they they seem to have a slow start two years every seemingly every year so I'm not worried about them and I'm not worried. It's about the packers losing to them but I didn't think the packers were going to be able to have this much success early on defense. No I thought they will look they did offensively Matt. Ah Flora new scheme you know they haven't really got to the level but defensively they have look really stout in those pass rushers. They went and bought in free agency this year. yeah the smiths they're great. They are and we are. I think a lot of people didn't really know who they were nationally so you see their names like why are these guys get. Preston Smith in eight or not but like they have been really really good dave an excellent. I think what Philadelphia did was kind of identified the weakness in the packers defense which is up the middle Kenny Clarke who who's normally very good at a real bad game and then behind him Blake Martinez the inside linebackers. That's where they're soft because you're right. Dismiss have been really good and I think Peterson I I complained about him running it on early downs I do but the run game was working for them once they I saw their line was mulling. All men break guests good Lord Lower Dude. I think came off of what is it accuser injury as he was amazing came back one and he he looks like the best garden incredible so that Philadelphia offensive is part of the reason. I liked him any kind of looks so much better in this game especially run blocking the other thing cam about the packers defense which I really liked in the first few games I talked about. I want to the couple of weeks ago. How Mike Patton was doing some really smart stuff. He had them almost exclusively in sub packages. Philadelphia comes out heavy they come out and they do what they did successfully last year which is a lot of twelve with Erz and voter and and they absolutely owned the packers plant like it felt like they just had Mike Pence numbers so my question for you. Is You just all the packers defense that was so good at the beginning of the season season get owned by runs up the Middle Twelve if your Dallas do you kind of try to do the same thing oh absolutely. I think that you know you look. Douses is very prideful. They probably think they have good office line Philadelphia and they they say hey we can do the same thing and you know I think the big difference in the big thing that Philadelphia Lafayette has and you mentioned it with Dallas Dallas had missed. I think the previous game or to a calf injury and he does such a really good job for their running game and and him and Zack urged they they really force you to stay honest because they both can kill you in the passing game but their offer excellent run run blockers and you know Blake Darwin in and Jason Witten. I don't know if they're at that level so they're going to be able to have a lot of sesame inside. I believe but can they run to the edge. Philadelphia was able to do with Jordan Howard and to a lesser extent Mal Sanders. That's going to be the big question so yeah from the packer standpoint. I think they'll play a similar They'll try to beef up and say hey Sam in the box. We're going to have to stop. Zeke and I think Dallas is going to have to win. Yeah those actors. DVD's are good zander's like one of the already league quarterbacks in the NFL. Kevin King had a real real bounce back name. Blake Darwin sounds like a fake name real but like is it so let me ask you about the other side of the ball because you you know leflore scheme pretty well having covered him in Nashville. What have you thought so far of the marriage between him and Aaron Rodgers. I guess my worry coming in is that you know leflore. LEFLORE is a little bit of exit. He's he's not a little bit a lot of X. No Guy and I was always wondering how would he messed with Aaron. Rodgers really heavy personality and Aaron Aaron Rodgers sort of likes to have that control over the offense and we'll floors. Four system is very like systematic like it's not like it. There's I'm not saying that he you can't fluctuate but it's it's really he's a scheme likes to stick to it. The Shanahan yeah absolutely so I think they're both trying to joe and they're trying to figure it out out. I like the fact that they're embracing. Davante Adams and they're really force feeding him the ball because I think he's probably top three receiver in this league. Three yeah look like isn't this last game he did he did although. I'm a little worried about the turf toe. I don't know if that's going to hold them right. Yes Yeah Okay Eddie. Eh Eagles Secondary's Oh yeah sailor Ramsey yeah but no I think that you know the leflore game is really dependent on and I know you hate it but in the run game going and I think that you know they wanna get at Aaron Jones going on early downs and they wanted to kind of do that systematic thing and get the play action rolling so that don't hate the run game yeah. I hate it in the way it in certain moments threat. I mean clearly they should have run the ball at some point yeah the nets that I just felt like there was moments on early downs which they should not have it in their throwing it away like it. I'm I think you're right about that. That's the first thing I thought ever during the game as every time the packers run the ball the eagles defense coaches are clapping yeah like yes. Yes wants you to do something. Don't do it right yeah. Good yeah so that's one you know one criticism of four because he he does Wanna get that he he loves that second six second and five so he would prefer to get that on the ground rather than in the past so maybe that's something that they can kinda come together and say hey maybe we can throw a five five yard short pass to Marquess Valda skinning scheduling or Jimmy Graham to kind of get that early gain but yeah they were throwing away a lot of plays early. It's interesting you talk about how he's very has a rigid scheme and sensibility and he's got a game plan because the packers offense has been so good good on this scripted stuff right like they've come out is guns blazing or last few games and there were moments in this game to where it was just clicking on all cylinders is like one little fake screen. The wheel rows like yes. Yes that is what I want to see. Aaron Rodgers do but you know the flow just got real backed up in the red zone and and I thought situationally he made a few errors as well so you wash them you. Kinda feel like man if you can just do this all four quarters and also do a better job up in the red zone this offense dominate because I think the other takeaway I had cam from this game. We'll end it here was Aaron Rodgers lift frigging awesome. Oh you did. That's the best he's looked at home in a minute. You'll comfortable comfortable and also when you get out of the pocket. It didn't feel desperate. He was delivering strikes very quickly after keeping this is downfield. That's something I don't think we've seen consistently from him in a while. He's reminding us. These still elite people forget. I think Roger Still One of those five or six league quarterbacks that you know can boy year cowboys defensive good very good good in the in the loss they were a lot better than the offense granted you know Teddy Eddie the movie love but The linebackers looks incredible a did a nice job with Alvin Kamara the pass rush Robert Quinn uh-huh Dolphin Robin Dolphins legend Robert Clinton forty five years old yeah every time I find his younger than me. I'm so upset. He's he's got a really good. been that's one thing that everybody always talks about. Robert Quinn. He gets lower than just about anybody other than von. Miller and you can get around that edge in he makes that little speed swipe and almost every time. He's making a really good pass rush. He's right there and defenders back is whether he gets them down or not so there's a lot of times against the saints it's were although they play they have. They played really good upfront. Robert Quinn was trying his best wreck that game by himself. I don't know if the Dallas has any other edge rushers that can help amount and that's another question I have about him but Robert Quinn was really good. pick up for them and he's already contributed yeah. I mean you know Lawrence has obviously paid it. He's been good but I don't think I don't think he's been maybe as great as they would have hoped. Necessarily they dorrance Armstrong. There's some some some other guys there but Yeah Ska game we request twenty-nine continue so be upsetting to me. You're younger than your like younger than him by a lot. It's so don't you know no one wants all right before we move on. Who Do you got I'm taking the packers I I like the packers this year and I think that I think it'll would be a really close one. I'm thinking you know twenty four twenty three packers Aaron Rodgers Liza game winning. Oh sound drive yeah. I like the packers I think for other reasons we discuss. The Eagles offense was uniquely equipped to take on what Penn was doing and I also. He's a smart coach. I think he's GonNa make make adjustments. speaking of smart coaches. I always back into a segue and then I realized I don't know how to land the plane because the next thing we're talking about is jags panthers and I don't know if that's what's the right segue there because well speaking of sorry. We'll we'll take some likely contenders. This is a game that I've actually I really want to watch. I think it's GonNa be fun because these are teams that are still very much in the thick. Things does raise probably overuse and I wanNA start with Jaguars just did a piece on Garner misuse unheralded ballers and he has been the epitome of unheralded baller colors escort corley arc. Why do saying is we had no idea who were who they were who have shown up and he's on that list I'm one guy used to cover in Denver Shack Barrett. Who has had a phenomenal conversation? Yes yes nine sexy says three sacks more than anybody else in cal- Kyle Guy on the other side of the ball is also on that list so he didn't play as well. He didn't play as well last week with all risky you use the phone booth. He's a former risking college ready. Look like Houdini trying to dodge you know. Jj Watt and throw them pass it. That's a tough match. It is it isn't we. We thought I thought the painters are going to be dead in Cam Newton got did you do. I love that defense of Christian McCaffrey okay. Let's start there Christian Christian McCaffrey. I this is something that jumped out at me and I'm and I'm mixed about it. Touch the ball thirty seven times twenty seven carries ten receptions if he keeps up he's on pace to carry the ball more than three hundred and four times this season. I don't like that yeah. I don't like that for Christian. Yes yes. I mean we know. The panthers are doing although on a load manager perspective now that they're in the thick of things it's like there's some you know that's like pretty risky. It is odd because a lot of the scouting report against Christian McCaffrey that everybody was afraid to jump on is that Kenny carry the load Stanford and they were like a little bit undersized and when he gets an NFL office can you really isn't going to be a little kind of a is. He really going to be a feature back and now we're talking about. Does he have too many touches so I think it's a testament to Christian McCaffrey that he's been able to do all of this stuff yeah but yeah at some point. He's GonNa hit a rock and our hope that he gets paid before he starts slow down so Christian. If you're listening please take care of your body. Please figure out a way if you're in blowout gains to get the coaching staff auto gets you out of there because thirty seven touches in a game is not they're not. GonNa be in unless Donald Dolphins schedule Blake unfortunate yeah. There's has no break. There's no rest for the weary like why not just let Curtis. Samuel toted a couple of TIMES OUR JORDAN SCARLETT I duNno they're so they're so obsessed vest on McCaffrey running the offense and I think he he's clearly their best player so I understand why but yeah. There's not a huge drop off. Somebody else cares for three to card games. We'll so they're playing Jacksonville still a very good defense in this last win with Minhsiu. You obviously get to in a second. you definitely notice the absence of Jalen Ramsey. He was spelled by Trae herndon going to pretend like I knew who trey game. who honestly I when I went back and watched all the touchdown drives he gave up a big play on. I think every free I eat. They were picking on it. Which obviously like you? We got some of those other players in the secondary. That's who you're going to target did you did did you hate an played really well too which was a bit of a bounce back season but I if Houston. Dj Haiti is University of Houston University kooks rough year. We don't really WanNa talk talk about those West Yeah. It's been a little bit a little bit rocky. Anderson go university Houston. He did not he went to TCU. Oh yeah that's my the skies from Houston. If I yes as though I haven't heard the story about Lt Yeah Yeah Most Joel has like three stories. Two of them are about winning track. Championships says the child. We've all heard that one somehow he. I think he screwed his way into like the Espn College football one fifty telling that story and I started laughing so hard when I ah but tangent sorry but Ziva Severi good but but you