3 Episode results for "Chris flunk"
Big Blue Big Board: Matt Harmon of Yahoo! Sports talks wide receivers
"Hey listeners. This is Luke Thomas show hosted m finding if you like mixed martial arts and combat sports. You should check out our weekly show. The enemy our each Monday. We speak with the top athletes enemy from world. Champions two rising stars. We also bring you in-depth analysis on technique in our Monday morning. Analysts segment we talked to some of the brightest minds in the game. Plus, we answer your questions regarding the latest news and headlines of the world of professional fighting. Find us on apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Everybody tonight Patel editor in chief of the verge. I host podcast every week called the verge half. My friends Paul Miller, indeed or bone. We've got a rotating cast of characters from our entire site, which is about technology, how it impacts culture, and how that is all a big cycle that causes us to have a wide variety of feelings. The you can listen to every Friday we've done over three hundred episodes in six years since avert has been around. But you only need to listen to one the latest one to get caught up on everything. In tech news virtuous is on apple podcasts. Spotify everywhere else. You listen to podcasts. Check it out. Will welcome TV. The big big boy podcasts. I am Dan Zuta joint here by Chris flunk? Chris how you doing today? I'm doing the specially well today we have fries for everyone. We do. We have a guest someone who's going to break down a bunch of wide receivers with us and that is net Hormann writer analysts of Yahoo. Sports dot com also known for reception perception, which you can find on fantasy footballers dot com met. Thank you for joining us. Thank you so much guys. And yeah, I mean, this is obviously the perfect podcast to be talking about wide receivers as as this particular team is very much in the news right now for for big wide receiver, moose, I think we will have a lot to talk about a lot of different angles on pack. Your this morning. You had said you didn't wanna spend an hour on your own podcast trashing the giants. So we thought you give you ours. I appreciate it. Yeah. I don't wanna I don't wanna spend an hour. Trashing the giants on my own podcast. So I'll go on different ones and like spend fifteen minutes here fifty minutes there. I think that's a much healthier way to go about it. Yeah. Well, we we spend quite a bit of time doing that. Especially over the last couple of weeks. So let's start with what has gotten us to really talk about wide receivers because about a week ago. We wouldn't have thought why receiver would be something the giants would need to think about but it will be going forward. So let's start with Odal Beckham. Now, I think one thing when you of cover a team, I think is especially to fans you kind of lose context around what else is going on league wide. So you kind of over look some of what is happening on your team. So just as someone who wide receivers more as a whole just tell us how rare owed L Beckham junior is. I mean. I mean, unbelievably rare, which is why this trade is so startling an especially given what they got form, which I know. Dave Gettleman quotes were hitting the Twitter timeline this morning, and he was pretty much saying it was an offer they couldn't refuse. Dave. I mean, I think you really could refuse amid first-round pick the not just the earliest Brown's third round pick. But the the second third round pick that they owned this coming year and a box safety who's basically just the downgraded version of the guy. You just let walking free agency. I think you could probably have have refused that offer. But again, that's just my opinion. But going back to Beckham I mean, yeah, this is a player that I don't say this for too many players, but he is on a clear hall of fame trajectory, and I say this for not many players in the NFL either in terms of wide receivers. They're very few guys that I think actually truly dictate coverages, you know, obviously beyond just your vertical threats who make teams adjusts. Deep down the field passes that are gonna be coming from teams number one receivers at really dictate I have to double these guys on a decent portion of their routes. I have to you know, conc- that a player across the field is going to beat me in order for me to stop this player. There's a really I know that terms like double coverage. I mean, even people talk about triple teams, which never happens in the NFL. But because then you really would be conceding yards and points. But he will talk about who's going to be double covered at all times. But there's very few guys in all the years. I've studied wide receivers that I've noticed that is a sustainable, you know, game by game consistent effect, but Odell Beckham absolutely one of those players, and that's just again accounting to what he does to the defense without even thinking about what he does is an individual player, and he's one of the best wide receivers in the game. If not the best when it comes to separation route running I think it's Antonio Brown and Odell Beckham is the two standards over the last five years that I've been doing Recep. Perception, which you mentioned off the top is too wide receiver charting methodology that I came up with right track. Route running how often each layer runs each particular out often they get open on each route house, and they get open against different forms of coverages. And I mean Beckham is still pristine as elite in these metrics. I mean, he owns the two best success rate. Verse man coverage scores over the five years that I've been charting back in his rookie season and this past season. So there's there's really not been any falloff there. And by the way, he's never finished below the ninety eighth percentile success reversed press coverage. So there's pretty much nobody in the NFL. It's better at getting off the line of scrimmage against press coverage back. I mean, this is a truly rare elite player who makes everything around him better. And it's it's hard to overstate what a loss it is for the giants. What a gain it is for the Browns and just to give some people who might not know, max work. He was one of the first people to look at Odio Beckham at LSU and say, hey this. This kid's gonna be something. He broke my methodology. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, especially early in the NFL too, or he really even had the catch, you know, in which to national media heights that I don't think he ever saw coming that. I don't think any of us really saw coming matter. No matter how good you thought. He was going to be coming out of college. And I did think he was better than prospects. Like, Mike Evans that came out at your that went higher than him. I thought he was pretty much. I mean, right there with a lot of really like Sammy Watkins, and I thought Beckham was right up there too. And you could see them early and L, showings, at this was a player that was getting open, you know, again, like the ninety ninth hundred percentile in terms of success rate. Verse man covers even before we had that big breakout. Catch. He was a guy that was beating defenders weekend weak out consistently getting separation, and that is who's been throughout the entirety of his F O crew. I mean, really the only thing that slows him down is injuries. And that's about it and quarterback play when it comes to the box score. So. With that. Now, we know what the giants. Are we using an obviously they cannot replace that. Because of how rare that is you cannot replace Oto Beckham junior. So let's talk about now what the giants have left on the Russ or with what they were left with after the treat and something they added us, let's dive into sterling shepherd. He's someone who I mean. I think we all as people who watch in cover the giants. Like, a what a yes that slot outside versa to the not so much going to be really number one guy. So is there anything that stands out to you Incirlik shepherds game, I really like sterling shepherd. He's another player that going back to their college film. I really really appreciated. He was a player who showed the ability to get open against man coverage. I if you still has the best success rate verse man coverage score among all prospects that I've charted so he's definitely another guy that like Beckham cr- not in the same level of Beckham. But creates that easy separation gets you runs. Clean routes is a good all around pro and he hasn't necessarily developed into a star wide receiver. But he's definitely a really good high end contributor that. I like a lot. He's had several good seasons here again in passing offense that I do think has been hampered by bad quarterback play. And he's not just your run of the mill slot receiver, like, a, coal Beasley type. I mean. This is a player who going back to two thousand eighteen season in receptor or two thousand seventeen season excuse me in reception perception, he posted a fifty six percents success rate on nine routes of seventy percent on the post routes. He is a player who can get vertical can get loosened make bigger plays. You also is really strong at the catch point. I think that's probably the underrated part of his game. Is it not only is he got gets opened with clean route running. But he's got who finishes up there with like an eighty one percent contested catch score. And that's very good for a guy that isn't one of these big hulking receivers. Again, he has the aspects of timing of when to get his hands up there to win the ball in the air. How to just? Shield off defenders despite not having the biggest frame, you know, he profiled very similarly in terms of contested catch receiver to guy like Micheal Thomas, and again, I mean, they're frames could not be any more different. So it really is all about technique Huss or the player like sterling shepherd. That's why you know, the giants aren't totally sunk at the wide receiver position with him still there. I do think he is an ascending young player that maybe it another step. It'd be a guy who handles one hundred twenty to one hundred twenty five targets now. And that's not so bad. If you're someone that really wants to see him produce. But the question really is for the giants are is how how are they going to manufacture passing production outside the numbers? You know, how are they gonna manufacturer more downfield passing? Because again, that's not really the epicenter of sterling Shepard's game. He's more of that clean route runner over the middle. And I hope they do continue to use them in the slot. More outside just on occasion. Because that really is the strength of his game. I think they're. Is a lot more questions beyond Serling shepherd in the giant passing. Who again, I do think is really really good young player that I hope we don't get too caught up in trashing the giants not remember this is still a very good young player. You mentioned how important his technique was now is there anything technique wise or anything of that that you see in his games a slot receiver that translates to potentially more reps on the outside because the giants just signed someone who plays the slot even more which will get into golden Tate in a minute. But I just want to see if you think shepherd has any untapped upside. As a true wide receiver. Yeah. I think so I mean, I wouldn't rule it out again. I do think that his strength is what he does slot. What he does over the middle of the field. So that would be where I consider him to be used at his most awesome appoint, but he hasn't been a player. That's been a total schlub as a guy against press. Coverage. In fact, is thousand sixteen he had a seventy six percents. Exasperate verse press coverage Makati thousand seventeen he's right around sixty seven percent. So those are both above league average scores. So I don't think he is a Randall Cobb type player who like if you played him on the outside is just absolutely not going to work someone like a Jamison Crowder who's exclusively a slot receiver. I think he can get open against outside men coverage corners, he gives that really good detail route runner most of his career has been as a slot receiver. Which is why I think most people will say that the signing of golden Tate, dusty Ling, credibly redundant. If feels like they already have that player. I think both of these guys can take some snaps outside at flanker. Really what the giants will need is the split end x receiver Beckham, even at different points of his time was playing a lot of flanker instead of playing the ex receiver position, which helps you get that free released helps you. Face less press coverage on route two route basis, so they're losing just an outside receiver in general. And they might have these two guys as options to step up at the flanker position. Really what I think they'll be looking at in the draft. Especially is who's that guy that we can get as a commanding outside threaten. And honestly, the the question though, that comes to mind this this down to to brass tacks of you really think they've Gettleman has a plan. I mean, he insists that he has a plan. Right. It looks like right now they're collecting a lot of over the middle weapons. A lot of guys that are going to be used on short passes, golden Tate and sterling Shepard whether we think they can especially shepherd more. So the Tate I think can be more successful outside can be guy who can get down the field a little bit. But most of his downfield success has come out of the slot. So I don't know that you're necessarily going to be wanting to run sterling Shepard on post nine routes coming off the coming off the outside. So are they just conceding? The fact that ally manning at this point. Though, they still think he's good, which I don't share that opinion. But Dave clearly does there are they just going to concede? The fact that even though we still like him. He's not an outside the numbers hats or he's not downfield passer. Are they even going to look at that need in the draft. I don't know because right now they have three weapons who do excel over the middle of the inevitably grim. Sterling Shepard in golden Tate in his that just going to be the focal point of the offense. And of course, saquon Barkley coming out of the backfield as a good short area receiver to I don't know. They might not see the same Nita for outside receiver that we did. Yeah. Possibly they might be okay. Within a dot of like five this season. And that just might be how the offense goes. So you brought up golden Tate a little bit let let's dive into hin because even if they're not redundant of Tate and shepherd. I think a lot of their straits do overlap and part of that. I think we've brought up the possibility of as much as you said, and we also like sterling shepherd that he's in the last year of his rookie deal. He might not even be. Giant in twenty nine thousand nine we don't know that. So let's get into golden Tate. What you've seen from him over his career. I know he didn't really fit super well with the eagles when they tried to work him into the offense. So what is he right now at this point is career? This kind of got on my radar a little bit. When my colleagues res- paler tweeted out before free agency that a guy like golden Tate or Adam Humphreys is going to be asking for ten to fourteen million dollars per year on the open market people really trash that. And maybe it's because a lot of people don't know who Adam Humphreys is. And maybe that was mainly the the backlash of the tweet, but for golden Tate. I mean, obviously, his run with the eagles didn't work out at all. I thought that was a weird trade for the eagles because they clearly need vertical threat. Not another slow or see you're here to get. You can come back to the same point that we just made with the giants. I think Nelson angle are and golden Tate a lot of their strengths overlap. So it wasn't confusing. Trait of the time and often we see wide receivers outside of Mario Cooper. Who is definitely a bit of an exception to this rule. Why was he was not necessarily switch teams in the middle of season or even late in training camp? And then immediately comfort up with their new team. It's a lot to figure out especially if you have no familiarity with the quarterback, I know by the way, especially if that quarterback is also influx with injuries as he wasn't Philadelphia. Because I think what people forget about is golden Tate. Not only was he a good player in twenty seventeen. But he was still on pace for a great season in Detroit before they oddly just shift him out. He was on pace for a hundred catches over eleven hundred yards. He was averaging more yards per game than at any other point in his Detroit career. So it's a sense two thousand fourteen his for season there. So to me, I thought the Tate got a little bit disrespected on the open market. I mean, he ended up with a good deal from the giants. But he's got an even though he's thirty years old. He can still really contribute. And I again, I hope that the. Shade. It's being thrown onto the giants for the weird signing that is golden because of the archetype player that he has a relapse of the Arctic player, Shirley shepherdess doesn't discount for the fact that Tate. I think is still a really good player who just kinda has a nasty stink on him right now because things didn't go well, Billy. But if we rewind you know, to back in September October nobody's talking about golden Tate as a guy who's about the fall. So to me, I think that again, he's not he's not the guy that I prefer to be on the outside at prefer that to be throwing shepherd if one of these two that moved to that flanker position. But he has still got I really do think in play. I think in a, you know, not necessarily look taking the rest of the situation of the context is a good signing for any team yet. The giants do have a couple of guys who might be able to play that x receiver position on the even ridge of a two million dollar original round tender, which wound up being causing some confusion because it was. First round pick to Corey Coleman and overnight they resigned. Cody Lattimore, should we care about either of those two guys probably not I definitely don't care about Cody Latimer at this point me. You know, he's a guy who was people really liked him coming out of college. I was one of them. I thought this this comparison sounds bad now because he also didn't turn out to be good fro but back in two thousand fourteen or two thousand thirteen Michael Floyd. But he was going to be a really good NFL player. And I thought Cody Latimer. Look exactly like Michael Floyd it his college tape and again, either one of these guys ended up being good at a player. So maybe that tells you something, but they're straight overlap. Yeah. Right. I mean, I guess so, but like in terms of cutting he's the guy that people really like coming out of college. But the only thing he really ever developed was you know, a lot of training camp hype and special teams play. So by the time that he's out there is a third receiver for the job. Playing that extra Seaver spot. They're just kind of wasting a spot on on offense. There's really nothing that Lattimer is bringing to the table as an actual receiver, especially when you're such an eleven personnel heavy team. Now, I think there is a case to be made that the extra Seaver position is a little overrated or you can get around not having a great player there. If you think back to at his offense in two thousand seventeen with the Minnesota Vikings, they primarily ran through a flanker wide receiver Seth on digs a big thought receiver, Adam Phelan, and I think that, you know, going into two thousand eighteen it was very fair to say that you know, out Beckham was their plus version of Steph on I love step on days. But beckons obviously a bit of better player so used their plus version of that guy and inserting shepherd sort of develop into their Adam Phelan and even Evan Ingram. Could chip in doing some of the things that Adam the'll did as well. And. They were really just not going to be all concerned about the extra Seaver position. Just like Minnesota really wasn't running out. Michael Floyd who were just talking about back in that season or a guy like Liqun Treadwell who nobody really has hope for developing into good pro at this point, though, I think that there's a reason there's a bit of an maybe they can do a downgraded version. They could have been the upgraded version of that. Now, they're definitely be the downgrade version of that with Tate and shepherd as the slot and flanker. And really just not all that worried about that extra Seaver position. But I think you gotta have something out there. You can't just have Cody Latimer again, maybe that's Gordy Coleman. But his only real showing as an ex receiver did come with the Cleveland Browns. And it was an awful show. I mean, his rookie year is one of the worst ever that I have in reception perception history. He's down there below sixty percent success rate. Verse man, coverage just not a guy that. It really showed a lot of you know, a knack for the position. So maybe he takes some massive leap. But I would be super skeptical about that nicer. I I'm at least open to the idea of caring about a Corey Coleman. You know, bounce back to being at least a contributor. I'm not holding out hope that he's going to be a star. But I think they have to address that at least a little bit in the NFL draft. Again, the giants like disagree with you on that notion. I kind of feel they disagree with all of us. That is clear that is very clear. So before we get into some of the draft guys might have stood out to you. I wanna talk to you about little bit of your philosophy. You have in grading some of these wide receivers and just other pass catchers specifically, I wanna talk about your book on drops. I know this is something you've talked about in the past. And it's something I agree with you with. And it's something that I think at times over the past two three years there have been giants fans who have been disappointed in Beckham and sterling shepherd this year. Evan Ingram, especially this year about how many drops they have. But could you just kind of walk us through how you view drops. And what it actually means just in the the bubble of valuing what receiver does. Yes. So I wrote a piece on my website back Debaecker, banter dot com about wide receiver drops negativity bias if anybody's interested in kind of reading my full thoughts, they can find that. They are still searching you'll be you'll be able to figure it out. And I. I think that one thing that's interesting to me is that gonna come back to that negatively by Beckham's actually, a great sample because you mentioned this. You know, someone tweeted to me what I was taught when I was tweeting out these great reception perception stats about Beckham about how much separation he get somebody replied, you know, he drops too many easy passes. And I looked up yet three drops of last year. Like, oh, wow. You know? I mean, what what what an outrageous number. I know in previous years he's been up there like eager something. But again think about that in the grand scheme of all the greatness Oto Beckham brings you know, if he's a guy who's going to be targeted a hundred fifty one hundred sixty times something like that. Yeah. He's gonna drop passes. I it's just a reality of playing the position. I think that one thing again, it is that negatively by is that we see the drop especially from a great player, and we have that very visceral. Negative, reaction and human beings just tend to emphasize negative events more so than positive events such typical some that you're gonna find reading any sort of brain science. And I think that that negatively by six with us when we see those drops, but we categorize those in a much different way. We categorize, you know, a great curl route. It's run on a second down that gets you a first down. You know, you're not gonna have as great of positive reaction to just your run of the Bill playing even take it away from just a catch like oh Becca running a tremendous Robin draws two defenders. Yeah. And he doesn't get the ball thrown his way. But somebody else does your brain is obviously not crediting Beckham with that. Because you don't see it happen happens on the field. But you don't watch it on the Sunday and process it all that same time. But if they target Belk on a slant, route, you know, any drops it or whatever your brain is gonna mmediately take that negative, and and really it's gonna sit with you. So I tend to try to look. Beyond what a wide receiver does beyond just when they're getting targeted. And that leads you to really under emphasize drops like for some players people will bring up to drop the ball too much. Everybody brings up Ted Ginn. But then you failed to mention that Ted Ginn has made a positive impact on the last two offenses at he's been on Carolina. He was a good player in New Orleans. He's been a good player to despite the fact that he drops the ball. He brings verifiable rare deep game ability that not everybody brings and other players that people bring up to, you know, you'll bring up Greg little or someone like that Bill little, you know, he the reason that he washed out of the league is because not only did he drop the ball. But he couldn't do anything else to make his Trump's worth living with somebody like an Odell Beckham Leica. Ted get you'll much lesser extent. They meduse something beyond the drops to make those drops those negative place where living with and I would just much rather emphasize what a player can do over what they can't do. Awesome. So vol, we get you down. Let's. Talk about some things that players can do. And as we look to the draft. I'm not sure if this is it's not a strong elite wide receiver class. But I think through some of these players there's a decent amount of death and all of them probably bring something that can contribute to an NFL offense. So as you've been going through your scouting process through these receivers who has stood out to you so far. Yeah. One guy that I was so one thing I'm really focusing on dementia with drops another thing that I've really honed in on the wide receiver position is not necessarily, you know, giving players pass fail grades on some sort of archaic NFL standard of what we think players should be able to do what they should do. But really properly categorizing them into roles. I've mentioned a ton of this podcast of difference between the X receiver the flanker and the slot receiver. And I think that some of these players that I haven't necessarily been all that high on like juju Smith Schuster. A great example coming out of college. You know, he was a player who exclusively played on the outside wind up on one side of the field. And I didn't think that he had the vertical ability the necessary like the great route running to get off press coverage to really hack it as an outside receiver in the NFL. But what I failed to realize was when I failed to do is be more imaginative with the role that he could be in. And I think that that was and again, we've seen him be a totally different player for the Pittsburgh Steelers. He's been that big slot receiver flanker guy. Not at all the position that he played at USC. So I think that's one thing is watching these guys almost more concerned with what role are they gonna play where they gonna fit within the context of that role more. So than just who is good as who is who is that at one point in that I've immediately been drawn to from that perspective is Nicole Harry out of Arizona state because I think he shares a lot of similarities to juju Smith Schuster. I think if you're going to draft to kill Harry, you're gonna wanna use him as a big. Flowers. You're gonna wanna use him as a flanker, you know, very much like Smith Schuster, even like later career, Larry FitzGerald the way they've used him. As almost like a pseudo tight end in a way, I think that Harry could be a good player that doesn't fit with the giants. What they need. I was mentioning got over stock slot receivers at this point or using exactly what they need which nothing. Receiver. Let's keep that aid dot down, man. Now, let's keep it under four be totally in the Gabbard zone. I think that that that he's someone that I'm really drawn to in that way because I don't necessarily think he has the ability press coverage to get off outside defenders. But I do think he is tough. I think he's rugged over the middle. I think he separates really well against nickel corners against linebackers. And again, that's what we've seen a lot of what she's missed Schuster's done can good after the catch. He's been hard to take down in that in that fashion. These also been good at the catch point in those are two verifiable strengths at Harry has. Now, if we're looking at receivers if the giants probably need to look at I think a lot of people will point to decay met Klaff is that type of guy who can be that big extra Seaver. And I think that's certainly possible. He needs to do a lot of development in terms of just running, you know, more routes than you necessarily. But also there's a lot of ways that you could use a player like that. You know, think of how? The Cleveland nobody wants to praise Hugh Jackson team ever. And I don't want to either. But I think there's a lot of credit that you can give them for how they use. Josh Gordon coming out of the NFL after not playing for free years. They dropped him into a position where they don't necessarily just throw them out as the extra Seaver, but the use him as a flanker they move around the formation. And you know, it's not like Josh Gordon was at the peak of route running technique after spending three years away from football. And almost like a very Ralph player at that point. I think that's where decay MetLife is at this point his career. You can find ways to use these receivers if you want to create vertical production just have them run slants, curls and nine routes and post, and that's about it. So you're going to be limited terms of what you can ask a player like that to do. But I do think there's a lot of value in a big play ability in a big play receiver like that. And last another guy's really caught my eye. It's keen Butler and Butler. I do think of all these receivers in this draft might have. He definitely. Has dropped problems that I think people need to get over. Because to me when I look at him, despite the fact that he's a big hulking receiver guy gets off the line of scrimmage, very well. I think the giants are looking for receiver who want. They knew want to get off press coverage not the same way. But in a similar fashion to ho how Dell used to do it. I think that he came Butler is probably at this point my favorite to do that. I think both the giants and the Steelers two guys who have traded away these top end number one receivers, I think they'll both be looking at Butler, you know, towards the early second round for the giants or the early the late first round for the Pittsburgh Steelers that this is the guy that I think could maybe develop into a number one Sieber Butler would have to appeal to Dave Gettleman who has said multiple times that he believes that football is a big man's game and life receivers don't get much bigger than king Butler. Well, look at the two player, and I I hated this. You people might know who follow me that I like to say, I'm in a complicated relations with. A Carolina panther. So. What you guys are what you guys are with Gettleman right now been there. You know, I I'm not surprised by. I mean, I've surprised on the Beckham trade. But I'm not surprised that the football world has seemed to turn against a Galvin because I think that his tenure in Carolina left a lot to be desired and his approach to the wide receiver position was a hundred percent that way. I mean, he went back to back with Kelvin Benjamin. Devin funchess who are these slow lumbering lack of separation receivers, I think funchess got better throughout the course of his career. Whereas Kelvin Benjamin got worse. I actually do think Devin funchess's in interesting signing for the for the Indianapolis Colts on a one year deal the paid them a lot of money, but it's a one year deal. Who cares? But I think that he went back to back with those big hulking receivers. Maybe we see him kinda run that back here with a player like keep Butler as you mentioned clearly as the guy thinks that the balls of big man's game. I mean, yeah, he would that would fit within the way he's drafted wide receivers. At least in Carolina. His anybody. Really caught your eye aunt denied each have guys that we like personally. Kelvin Kelvin Harmon outta NC state, Dan like JJ or Siga Whiteside at Stanford. And he has a metric he likes us for wide receivers which target yards added and mom the king of that much. India's abella? Yeah. Yeah. Isabelle is really interesting. Obviously, I think he's he's a player that could be that mid round sleeper a two guys you mentioned with our Sega Whiteside and Kelvin harm. And I think will those guys actually share similar questions, which is just you know, are they true separators? And I think both of those guys unlike a player like kill, Harry, they're straight. There's their strengths are best suited for the outside. I don't think they necessarily like you can't necessarily say every receiver who struggles to get open on the outside. You have to move them into the slot. I think there's there's a mindset of physicality that I think Harry has to his game that I definitely think translate city inside. I'd now are Whiteside especially he's a guy who is consistently in contested catch situations. I think you you do see some hints of technique. But he definitely that's the play. He plays almost like he's a smaller receiver at releasing from the line of scrimmage, but then odyssey plays like a big receiver when he gets to catch point. So that's interesting to me. I think that there is some ability to hone that instinct that he has to be a separating wide receiver. And maybe he's a guy like a Mike Williams who I thought to me coming out of the draft a couple of years ago. People saw him consistently in tested catch situations. But you know, they been they assumed that he doesn't separate. No. Of course. Mike Williams separation ability is not up there with the top of the league, but he separates. Just good enough. To max also, then have a maximizing trait as a contested catch wide receiver. I think that's sort of the discount aversion, which you could get with the player like JJ Ortega Whiteside or maybe even Kelvin. Although to me, he profiles more your typical possession receiver. And maybe if the giants are looking for a wide receiver who is gonna play on the outside. But isn't a vertical threat maybe Harmon is in in that regard that type of player, and of course, obviously, we can't discount the fact that he entered right name. I mean. All name team this year. Williams and rocky sin. Exactly I that. I think that's all we have for you. Thank you so much for joining us, and everyone who's listening know where they can find you and your work. Yeah. My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me again, it's really fun team to kind of dissect not just what's going on their depth chart with wide receiver position. But just kind of wear the league is that is a whole with this decision group. Of course, I'm very biased because I'm so fascinated by it. Because of course, I do study wide receivers with the reception perception methodology, if you wanna check that out the best way to do is just on Twitter and use the hashtag reception perception, you can find the graphs charts the data that I'm putting out their links to find it where you can where you can purchase access to the data through the fantasy football ultimate draft kit. And while you're on Twitter. If you wanna follow me, I'm at mat? Harmony underscore B Y be thinking that cruciate. It you guys can find podcast wherever you get your podcast. Please rate review. If you have not follow on biglou view. You can follow me on Twitter at Tampa Zuta fell Chris onto there. At rector MK. I thank you guys for listening, and we will talk to you again soon. My name is Spencer hall by name is Jason Kirk. My name is Ryan nanny combined. We form the shutdown full stride. Tron keep telling you this forecast is technically college football podcast. But it's also a show about care disaster regional grocery stores. We live Tennessee Batman homeowners associations bears in video games. Pittsburgh Batman the hell of being transferred a group, text unreliable legal advice. I mean, there's also some actual football discussion about coaches, having huge contracts coaches making terrible decisions or coaches, saying really stupid things or the NC double A's saying released. Yeah, there's lots of stupid things in this big dome. Beautiful sport time Arkansas decided to use a captured feral hog as a mascot, and it escaped and it wound up killing seven rattlesnakes a pig and a Coyote, sometimes we talk about okay village, it with if you wanna take college football exactly as seriously as it deserves taken come find us on apple podcasts Spotify or wherever else you listen to podcasts. Like this one this down. Full cast. It's not voltron unless it is.
The Chris and Joe Show: Week 10 Eagles Win Film Breakdown
"Today answers matter more than ever before. That's why ibm is helping. Businesses manage customer. Questions with watson assistant. It's conversational ai. Designed to work for any industry. Let's put smart to work visit. Ibm dot com slash watson. Assistant listening to chris and joe show on view. Radio your source for new york. Giants analysis stays office. Welcome to the kristen. Joe show presented by sp nation and biglou view. I m jodi. Leone joined by chris flunk to poor. Today's film break down episode after the giants. Victory their second straight win and win over the philadelphia eagles. We had some time to look back at the film on monday. We have some very interesting takeaways. We're going to discuss some key things that maybe you didn't noticed during the game and a little bit deeper than some of the general headlines that came out of the second straight win for the giants third win of the season. Chris the first thing. I'd really want to address here. Is what appeared to be after watching back this this performance the eagles coming in and assuming they could do whatever they wanted to establish dominance they. They came into this game thinking. It was the same dysfunctional giants that they were over the past few years. They didn't have to put much effort in and they would somehow find a way to easily win this game a little bit similar to how things worked out the last time. They played some of the things that really stood out to me was james bradberry their willingness to throw in his direction way more than some other teams do and then a lot of off coverage against darius slayton. That wasn't the case. Though they came out flat they thought they could just coast their way through this victory but the giants came out swinging it. Yeah they did you know. It almost looked like the eagles were still on their bye. Week and granted given the recent history. In this rivalry. You could see how they could think stat but honestly he did not look at all prepared to play this game at least outside of their defensive line which is the thing we'll get to but there were a bunch of units all across the eagles roster where they just looked flat. They did not look prepared. They did not play well and they had a ton of penalties miscues mental mistakes and they did almost as much to beat themselves as the giants did to beat them right now. Is the big thing that we had previously discussed on the quick take show. It felt like a lot of the issues that the eagles were dealing with. Were them shooting themselves in the foot. But now take this. This look deeper. They just look underprepared. They looked like they assumed that this was an easy coast win that they are in the driver's seat for the nfc east end because of it because they're the best team in one of the worst divisions in the nfl. They could just walk over the giants with their game. Plan another thing that also really blatantly stood out to me is how they paid such little attention to the giants. Run game. i we gave props to the giants offense of line for blocking really well on these rushing plays and i don't want to take away from that. I don't want to detract from that. But it was very clear. They assumed with their base defense. They could just stop this giants rushing attack. And because of it jason garrett put the pedal to the floor and said we are going to run the ball down your throat up the middle the entirety of this game and it worked really well. They picked up a lot of really big rushing plays because of that and that willingness by jim swartz just come out and play. This really soft defensive game plan. I think was the biggest reason why the giants were able to do better than they. Typically do offensively. Yeah i don't wanna say they played a lot of light fronts because Nfl next gen stats with their player tracking. They they keep track of. How many heavy fronts or eight plus man defenders in the box a running back season winged almond actually saw eight defenders in the box on half of his runs. However the eagles linebackers were just not coming up to fill their gaps. They were not playing downhill. You know almost all game long. It seemed like they were just kind of standing in one place at the second level. They weren't quite sure what to do at any one time. And gaughman hits the line of scrimmage so hard so fast that he was through the whole before they could even think about coming up to fill it. Yeah exactly all all. That stuff helped this giants offense in their performance. They ran the ball so effectively and are one offense of point that we wanted to discuss today from watching. The tape is a much better performance from daniel jones and we wanted to break down why he might have had one of his best games of the season. So per pro football focus. He was the highest rated player. Yesterday for the giants he also had a tremendous day throwing with a clean pocket. He was eighteen for eighteen throwing with a clean pocket. So that's another thing too. They were the eagles did not have an intent to attack daniel jones. They made very minimal effort to cause some serious disruption. They were trying to bank on their original four man front to do a lot of that work. Eighteen passing attempts with a clean pocket is a lot of passing attempts to not be seeing pressure so because he had a much cleaner day he had less guys coming at him he was able to be a little bit more relaxed and on top of that he was able get the ball out a lot quicker than usual. Yes and a part of that is due to the eagles coverage calls like they were playing. A lot of off coverage is a lot of soft coverages. Unfortunately at the time we were recording this the the. Nfl hasn't released the coaches tape. The all twenty two tape yet so. We can't actually say where the eagles safeties were. I'm confident they were on the field but they did not show on most of the tv angles so they were very out of position to do much of anything. I can sort of understand the soft coverages after the giants. Burn them with the read option in the first game and you wanna be able to have your secondary imposition to have. There is in the backfield but with playing against receivers like the giants have sterling. Shepard darius slayton golden tate yet giving those guys three releases not doing anything to disrupt their routes it. That just makes it way too easy. Yeah there was limited disruption and we talked about. I mentioned very briefly earlier. There was a lot of coverage. There is a lot of soft coverage in that allowed for a lot of quick cuts by receivers hitting a lot of really simple short routes. That was big. And i. I also noticed a willingness by daniel jones to hit that that i check down option before he chose to wait for things to develop downfield some of the biggest issues that we've dealt with with daniel jones and that is frustrated. The hell out of us is watching. Daniel jones back sit in the pocket in wait too long for plays to develop downfield them not developing and him getting hit or them developing but because pressures coming at him he throws off platform leading the turnovers instead he was hitting some guys that were running. Some swing routes some some quick outs some. Some curls slants all the really quick short passes. Don't that don't really take a lot of time to develop. He was more willing to hit those things. In that i think ultimately was the biggest reason why he was eight thousand eight hundred eighteen with clean pocket and he was also so efficient on the rest of his passing attempts. Yeah he was getting the ball out very quickly at really incredibly quickly for him a coming into this week he had. He was one of the worst quarterbacks for holding onto the ball but this week again per next gen stats. His average time to throw was just over two point three seconds that is really lightning quick and i really do think a lot of the eagles off and soft coverages help that you know really defined reads guys. Were getting open quickly. We haven't seen the giants receivers create separation or have separation like we saw against the eagles in a long time so that that made it really easy for jones to get the ball out quickly. Really get get the ball out before the eagles pressure could get there so chris. I think the best way to wrap up discussing how well daniel jones played why he played well. Those various aspects of quicker more efficient routes. You can also throw in there. The run game really helping him because they were able to run the ball so well. There was significantly less pressure on him. I think that after this by week once they figure out what they wanna do offensively because they're going to have the time to do that. They're going to have time to figure out the offensive line. If they wanna swap some guys in and out. I think the intent with the game plan for the remaining games and like i said on the quick take show there are games despite them playing some difficult opponents. They have to put seahawks. They've by the cardinals. They have to play the ravens and they have to play the browns out of those fourteen. Those are very good opponents. But what we've seen from them defensively from the giants defensively. They are capable of maybe shocking one of those teams. Maybe two of them and if they can do the best way i think for them to do that is the one thing that we've talked about a lot with daniel. Jones is simplifying things offensively in terms of quick short underneath routes. You can have those deep passing concepts but ingrain in daniel. Jones is head that you need to hit the short stuff. I look for the first shortstop first before you look over the top to hit somebody deep. It's it's much better. This offense works much better. If you hit kane smith or sterling shepherd or darius slayton or austin mac for a seven yard gain then if you risk trying to go to somebody for a forty yard gain and it doesn't pan out. That's what leads them to be behind schedule. That's what leads to sacks interceptions all of that stuff. They need to keep things simple. They need to rely more on the running game. Which we've seen has been so effective. All of those things need to be so focused on during this by week ending in figuring out the offense of identity for the remainder of the year. Yeah and that also does help with putting the paul putting the ball in safe positions where Even if you're throwing it there's a difference between an target throw and a precise throw in which you see the a precise throw that puts the ball where it only your guy can get it yet if possible. You're setting him up for yards after the. Catch your either your throwing it away from throwing it away from defensive backs and putting the ball in a position where you're doing your receivers favors. It's easier for them to catch. They don't have to tried who died for the ball. Tort oddly try to jump out of the stadium to get the ball. These quick quick throws quick easy throws those should be easier for him to place precisely. We did see a few times where the daniels was helped by the eagles being so far out of position in the secondary there were two to tip drills and one pass where he he was under pressure and just through badly but the eagles were really nowhere near where they should have been if they were they probably could have come down with those he could have had at least one interception but thankfully the eagles were their defense was just so dysfunctional this game everything except for their defensive line that those passes were much safer than they have been in previous games coming up. We are going to discuss three key. Defensive points before we get there though folks. We have a short message from our shows. Sponsors support for this podcast comes from. At and t. all right so to stay connected. At and t. Business has the only wireless plan your teams need with mobile. Hotspot data up to one hundred gigabytes. They can easily use their phones to connect tablets laptops to the internet from really virtually wherever work takes them giving them the power to boost productivity even on the go upgrade to. at and t. business and get our best plan with nationwide five g and one hundred gigabytes in mobile hotspot data visit att dot com slash business elite terms and conditions apply espionage in presents the sp nation nfl show five weekday episodes to get you through the grind the nfl season with your favorite espy nation community leaders. You'll get reactions to what happened on sunday. Film breakdowns fearless takes local expert analysis fantasy football advice and so much more. There's a little something for everyone on the sp nation nfl. Show be sure to subscribe on apple podcasts. Or your favorite podcast app to be sure. You don't miss a single episode. Chris defensively. This was another fantastic game. I believe by patrick. Graham in terms of his play calling against this eagles passing attack carson. Wentz is a guy if you allow him to throw with a clean pocket and with simple zone concepts with limited coverage if you leave a lot of guys open or you're not being aggressive in your coverage he can pick you apart and while they're receiving group is coming together still. They have had injuries. They're young he can still put up some pretty good statistics. That wasn't the case in this game. In what i think worked so well is seeing patrick. Graham daring carson wentz to throw the ball in contested situations and it didn't work when he kept doing it. There were plays a number of which and mostly early in the game where i can recall them. Where guys would come in. Sit in the middle of the zones but the the room for him to complete these passes were very tight in carson. Wentz is a very aggressive thrower. He's willing to take risks. So patrick graham played to that expecting him to take those risks. The giant secondary took advantage of this. This this this scheme this approach defensively and made some really good players on the ball. Now they didn't have any big interceptions but what was so effective was a ton of batted down passes especially from james brad bradberry and there is one from logan ryan as well in the first quarter so a lot of that stuff just worked really really well for this for the giants defense and secondary. Yeah that is just one thing. Bradberry does so well is use his length to play receivers hands yet. He plays the ball at the catch point. He's not trying to tackle the receiver. He's trying to deflect the ball make sure the catch doesn't get made and he does that just so so well he's also kind of helping. I noticed kind of a sneaky hand usage. You know there was one play where he was running down the field with a receiver and the receiver was moving to make the catch and bradbury got his hands on him in a way that if the refs had seen it probably would have drawn flag either would have been holding or defensive pass interference however he did it in a way where the the rest just could not see it. He i believe he used the receivers body to shield it from the refs so that is just some very high level. They don't wanna say maybe high little skulduggery as oppose yep and that is i think what has made him such a good sign for the giants is the fact that he a lockdown corner. He can be prone to drawing those flags because he can get aggressive with that hand usage but his ability to knock the ball away to deflect the ball to close those passing windows when they look like they're open. That was just a stark contrast to what we saw from the eagles defense where they didn't play the giants receivers hands at all. You know they almost look like they forgot. It was legal for the giants to catch the ball at times that that did just so much for the giants defense. Talk about a drastic difference in statistics per this box score here the giants had six passes defended. That is a fantastic day. The eagles as you might guess as you just pointed out kris they had one carson wentz only threw for two hundred eight yards in the stark thing that stands out to me is he went twenty one for thirty seven there were a lot of errant throws in this game by carson wentz a lot of aggressive attempt to force the ball into tight coverage and it just did not work. That was a very very well called game by patrick. Graham who continues to amaze us in his ability to make these really really good defensive game plans the other thing too that we really that really stood out to us before we talk about one thing that was a little bit. Tricky dalvin tomlinson in bj hill. Strong games for the both of them. A of penetration and a lot of pressure. It really was you know. It was looking back at the giants. Snap count it was. It's kind of disappointing that. Bj hill did not get more snaps than he did. I i believe you only got about twenty three or twenty four snaps on the game. But every time he was on the field he was being disruptive i he had a sack of levy at a pass defense he had deflected pass. He was getting pressure. Getting just getting penetration making life just health for whatever eagle had to try to block him and again dalvin tomlinson just continues to be a steady and quietly great player for the giants defense. He was getting push all game long. He was driving. Kelsey back into the backfield. Which is no easy feat. Yeah i have to wonder if maybe his presence and how hard he was making. Kelsey work contributed to all of those low snaps and just bad miscues from really one of the best centers in the league. I honestly think that that was another thing too that connects with my point earlier that they assumed they'd be fine if they came out with a bear game. Plan they just assumed that they were going to be fine blocking this giants defensive line but they came ready. They came ready to play. They came to eat against a struggling. O line that has dealt with a number of injuries especially dalvin tomlinson and bj hill. The play that stood out to me that was one of the best players. I've seen from this. This giants defense. The season was when the eagles called a play action. Pass the left side of their offense of line got blown up carson. Wentz tries to roll out in dalvin tomlinson not only played the run effectively but as soon as he like. Lightning quick realized it wasn't a running play. He blew through tat through blockers and then disrupted the hell out of carson wentz wrapping him up as he was trying to throw the ball away to a point where it was almost intentional grounding. That was a fantastic. Play that by dalvin tomlinson in this giants defensive line continues to be the biggest bright spot for the group it really really is and i have to take these opportunities to pat myself on the back a little bit back in back before the giants drafted dalvin tomlinson backup Hut two thousand sixteen. He was just a guide. The nose tackle on a an absurdly talented alabama defense. I put on put on their tape. Wash their defensive line. And ed will back me up on this. I sent him message immediately saying that. Holy crap this guy is a damon harrison. He is snacks light and that was a snacks. Play you were talking about that is. That is the kind of play that damon harrison would make before age and injuries started to catch up with him. Yeah i know every time that you get that chance to you always have to pat yourself on the back and take take advantage of those opportunities while you can but i think we all can agree here that dalvin tomlinson is a fantastic defensive lineman and they need to do whatever they can pay him however much money he asks for and do whatever you can to get him to come back but chris. I just wanted to acknowledge one thing. That was a little bit tricky and it wasn't as good as as we would have hoped. The giants defense was coming into this game as the sixth ranked team run and they allowed over one hundred and fifty yards rushing the allowed boston. Scott to pick up the biggest run the allowed all season. They didn't have a very clean day. And you noted that it might have been because they weren't as aggressive in stopping the run and they didn't use as many eight-man boxes. Do you think that that was an issue or do you think that was more of an attempt to be aggressive in protecting against the past like do you think it's like a give and take. Were they allowed. One hundred and fifty yards rushing. But they said we're so intent on stopping the pass that we're okay with it. I think is a little bit of column a little bit of column be. I think the eagles did a better job. Run blocking the giants. Thought they could I think getting dallas got her back getting lane johnson back yet. That did help. They're run blocking. Because there were some instances where they just opened up the kinds of holes that we are not used to seeing against this defensive front but also i do think the against miles sanders who is probably the most efficient running back in the nfl right now. He picks up yards at a almost scary clip. They did not field a single eight man box. He i think he might have been the only running back in the nfl to not seen eight-man box on sunday. And i have to imagine looking at the way patrick. Graham called the rest of the game that that was intentional that they wanted to keep their defensive backs their linebackers back in try to either disguise or clog there either disguise or clogged passing lanes and slow wentz down as much as they could. Because billy is getting healthier. And they did. Get alshon jeffery back. They got jalen. Reagor back travis. Fulcrum continues to emerge so they have a bunch of threats through the air getting dallas her back. Richard rogers made some plays as a receiver. So i think the giants did make the conscious decision to try to take the pass away and if philly beat them on the ground than they beat them on the ground. I'm on the same page as you chris. I don't think it was a hundred percent. Them saying beat us on the ground. We're going to completely shut down your passing game. I think that they put more effort into slowing down the passing game. But they just didn't come as prepared and they got a little bit gashed that they probably weren't expecting to going against this eagles rushing attack. Maybe they weren't expecting miles sanders to look as healthy as he did. A lot of things come into play here. And i don't think it's the end of the world that they gave up one hundred and fifty rushing yards but at the same time you need to play one hundred percent game if you wanna beat really good opponents because eventually some of these other opponents like when they play the baltimore ravens and the cleveland browns who are two very good running teams the seattle seahawks as well. These are two three teams. That are very good at running the football. You're you can get very well killed. Not only by just their rushing game alone if you allow performances like that like if you play the same way you did against those teams you're gonna allow a lot more than one hundred and fifty rushing yards and at the same time they're good enough offensively that when they run the ball effectively that opens up the remainder of their offense. Yes yeah the giants only have one more game against the nfc east remaining. That's dallas right at the end of the season and so far there has only been one victory outside of the nfc east by any nfc. East team you know. The giants are facing a tough schedule. Coming up you know. The cardinals are always dangerous. They don't want to say stole one from the bills but they had. They won on a phenomenal hail. Mary tyler murray is going to be a big problem for the nfl for a longtime russell. Wilson is playing at an mvp level especially now that he's got targets to throw to the baltimore ravens. They are always dangerous team. They are well built. They're pretty complete the browns. They don't have odell beckham. He tore his acl but they are generally speaking eight pretty talented team across the board. We're gonna learn a lot about the giants coming out of the bye week. Yeah there's going to be a lot more to understand about this team. And i'm really excited to see how this team shifts in how things look differently. I'm hoping that some younger guys get pushed into the lineup. That we get to see. Guys like austin mac gets more reps coming out of this by week. I wanna see matt pair as the starting right tackle after the bye week. There's a lot of things that could happen. This could be a completely different team coming out of this by week. It's coming out a good time. You're winning two straight games. And you need to use the time now to settle yourself figure out any issues and pick up from the momentum that you have and try to finish the season strong and if you don't finish at the top of the nfc east and ended up in the playoffs at the very least carry momentum into next year exactly like the miami. Dolphins did with brian flores. That's going to be it from us folks on today's show. Thank you for tuning in as be sure to hit that. Subscribe button wherever you're listening to us. And also follow us on social media at jodi leo at raptor k. I and also at big blue you on twitter and instagram also had a big move you dot com for more giants news analysis. This by week we are going to spend a on of time billing you in on the nfl draft. What better time to do it. When there's no games to fill you in on all the amazing names that you need to know. It wasn't too long ago that this time last year last by week we were talking about andrew thomas and how a lot of people were saying he was the top tackle in the draft. Wasn't the top tachograph. But he still ended up being a new york giants. So see some of the names some of the fun guys that we think you should be aware of the prospects that are under the radar for you. Just all of the amazing things coming into the nfl draft stay tuned for the remainder of the week. Heads up baseball fans. There's a brand new podcast over on pinstripe. Allie of espy nation. The bomber brothers podcast featuring me ryan chester. My brother sean together. We tackle all the latest around yankees universe with in-depth analysis and some help from plenty of exciting guests. Joined now by brian. Hoke is the yankees beat reporter for. Mlb dot com. Hey we're joined now by bob classes. She is a baseball writer for the new york times right now by ben lindbergh writer for the ringer. He is the co host of the effectively. Wild podcast on fan grabbed jack. David cone david. Thanks so much for joining us by class. Your guys thanks for having me on. You can catch new episodes every week. As far of the pinstripe alley community of podcasts. Be sure to check us out and subscribe for free on apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen your podcasts.
The Chris and Joe Show: Breaking Down The Bears Loss
"Podcast listeners, we are amazing avenue, the espy nation New York mets site. I'm Chris McShane and every week Brian Salvator and I discussed the current state of the mets Automated Avenue Audio. The show we try to look at the mets from a somewhat logical point of view and not get too deep into panic city. We also answer your emails, give weekly music recommendations and try not to get too frustrated with the team. You can find the show on apple podcasts on stitcher on spotify, wherever you get your podcasts and let's go mets. Listening to the Chris and Joe Show on vk radio and your go-to source for New York giants and else's Talk. This Story. Welcome back to the Chris Joe show presented by SP nation and big blue view I'm Joe deleon joined by Chris flunk today's episode we are breaking down the film from the Chicago Bears Game for the New York giants in a game that they suffered a pretty tight defeat seventeen to thirteen giants fought their way back into this game game despite being down seventeen nothing half comes down to the final play. All of the stuff that we've already talked about the key points from the game we talked about that in the quick cakes especially, the big headline that's coming out of this game which saquon Barkley As l. done for the season Sterling Shepard. Turf Toe going to be done for a period of time. That is two major hits for this giants offense. We're not gonNA spend too much time talking about that. There is a key point from the offense that relates to saquon Barkley being out four. But right now we're focused on the game tape in how things are going to be going forward and transitioning into next week's game against the San Francisco Forty Niners, which seemingly are far more battered somehow than the giants are from this past game against the Chicago bears. So Chris our first point and this relates immediately to the running backs. It just seems like as soon as Saquon went out of the game despite having. A few very good carries to get the offense into a little bit of a rhythm in the first quarter as soon as he was gone. The running game fell flat on its face because Dion Lewis was the guy taking over now Dion Lewis is a veteran he's been around for a while he's got very good hands. He's a good receiving back but it is safe to say that this dude is way too slow to be the giants lead running back. There's a reason why they worked out Devante Freeman, they need to bring somebody else in because right now, Lewis is over the hump. When it comes to speed burst acceleration, he cannot do a lot of things especially take twenty to twenty carries for a game. Yeah. That's really who he has been as a running back over the last few years really the end of his tenure with New England who he was less couple years with Tennessee yet he is will say very limited as a running back and those runs saquon Barkley had those were really saquon being saquon. At the offensive line was not blowing open holes and. Doing, great blocking downfield that was really saquon making guys miss in a phone booth. And then. Finding that glimmer of daylight and exploding through it. If you have a running back like Dion Lewis, who is you know he doesn't have great acceleration. He doesn't have a great top end. He is just not going to be able to create those opportunities for himself. To even be able to think about exploiting them. I couldn't help when I was watching. Dion. Lewis? Grimacing at how slow he was moving and I don't mean to completely knock him for his performance in his athleticism. But when you have so much penetration from the Chicago Bears Defensive Line and it takes them so long to build up that burst, build up that speed to get to the line of scrimmage. It allows for him to get tackled for a one yard loss or at the line of scrimmage that he did push his way into the end zone on a very tight play. But a lot of that goes to the push from the offensive line. The other thing too I just don't seen anything from him coming out of his cuts he he has a little wiggle at the line of scrimmage, but it doesn't do anything for him. This giants offense is going to need a replacement. We have no idea what the deal is with. Wayne. Gaughman because his. Him sitting out this past game was a coach's decision. We don't know if that's injury related. We don't know if that is related to some type of disagreement with the coaching staff we have no idea what this pertains to. So Wayne Gelman might be out for a long time. He might be back for this next game and take over a majority majority of the carries but Chris. Right, now, somebody has to take over and someone needs to be brought in because Dion Lewis is just not that type of running back. He gets the job done on third down not not being an effective all down running back. Yet not unless the giants make a serious shift in philosophy, ed decided to use quick passes in screens to basically take the place of their running back running game and. Really more just more treat those places like extended hand off than passing plays and more or less give up on the idea just handing the ball to the running back in the Backfield, and some of those plays did work I. Think you could pick up some good chunk yardage from Dion Lewis being in the football game give them a carrier to again I'm GonNa keep saying it you. Can't take more than fifteen ten carries a game because he's just not that type of a player. Maybe they think Eli Penny Penny could be a transition power back for this team either way both of those are not very good options, Chris and thing that we both noticed from watching the tape that the Daniel Jones interception that he had the one that counted where ever ingram slipped. That's. All on Daniel Jones we both noticed that Evan Ingram slipped before Daniel. Jones threw the ball into a situation that would have been tight even if Evan Ingram had not slipped, I also don't even know if he would have picked up the first down in that situation if he had caught that ball meanwhile on the opposite side of the field, there is a noticeably wide open Sterling Shepard On an Arrow route so Daniel Jones needs to stop being timid and freaking out at the little bit of pressure that's on his neck and evaluate the things that are in front of him. This is just another instance of him locking onto receivers your an NSF thing. We saw last year as well. In fact I remember another interception he threw torch a tight end I believe it was Read Ellison. Before he went down with an injury Jones was basically looking his way the whole play and that's what happened. Here with Ingram he never looked anywhere else. He just locked onto ingram where Ingram was going to be released where he expected him to be, and basically once his back foot hit hit in his drop. The ball was coming out and it didn't really matter that editing room was already on the ground. Right there's really no way to justify this this mistake by Daniel. Jones there were some people who saw this play saying Oh Evan Engram slip that impacted the play. If you go back and watch the play entirely, we know who who is to blame for this situation. It's Dana Jones like we talked about afterwards and this goes in line with. What we said on the quick take show Chris that we can only do so much. To cut him some slack. We can't keep doing that anymore we did it a lot in the first season because he was a rookie. Now it's time for him to take the leap forward. He can't keep making the same mistakes and he made a similar mistake with. The Strip sack, where Andrew Thomas was beat in Robert. Quinn pulled the ball straight out of his hand. Yeah. Ed Did a great job showing this on a post. He made earlier on where Dangle Jones had sterling shepard running wide open across the field. Now, he might not have been able to pick up the first down. He at least would have had. A completion, the giants would have lived to. Have another play instead Jones pats the ball pulls it down just shows a lot of. And in the meantime Quinn and Khalil Mack are closing on him, the ball comes out. There's ball. That's a similar thing that we've always spoken on with Daniel Jones. He has a tendency to hold onto the ball way too long, and this is something that at some point, the that switch has to flip in his head that he needs to have a sense of urgency but at the same time. Not Rushing his decision making it's a very complicated balance. That is what separates good quarterbacks in this league and average to below average quarterbacks those that can make. Decisions while also not holding on the ball too long you need to think quickly but eh needs to be effective thinking it can't just be I have to get the ball out it needs to be whereas my best quickest available option not forcing it into a spotlight where he was picked off by Evan Ingram. Chris the last offensive point from this game is a very noticeable lack of cohesion from this offensive line they just don't work well. To, me I see a lot of issues with passing is often in pass protection when guys run stunts. That was how one of the SAX with a Akeem Hicks was created for that bears defense. There are some communication issues again for the second straight season I don't entirely know who to blame because Nick Gates is probably one of the. Biggest culprits for this because he is the starting center, but it also doesn't help that you're left. Tackle is a rookie and there is a pretty new group overall working together. Yeah I think you can really see the impact that. Not having a regular offseason, not having preseason is having on this group. They aren't even really close to Jeld right now and you bring up Akiem. Hicks he was a problem for this offensive line yet he was really easily able to overpower Nick Gates he a few times proved to be a little too quick for Kevin Zeitler that I sack of his. Zeitler, lunged end Hicks was able to adapt on the fly just go right over him and right into the backfield it was another time Hicks was overpowering. I believe it was the stunt you brought up. He overpowered. Nick Gates and then. Will Hernandez came over to help end? He basically schooled to giants players on the same rush. that. Those are things you just really can't happen especially with the amount of resources. The giants have poured into this offensive line over the last few years exactly. Something needs to give at some point with all of the resources the draft picks the high priced. Contracts in signings, the trades made. You'd think at some point this would work effectively but there seems to be a blatant lack of communication happening time and time again I point directly to the Andrew Thomas play where he didn't even block Khalil Mack because I don't know if he knew he was supposed to pick him up. He put a hand out to touch him. It seemed like he thought he was passing him off to someone nobody touches, Khalil Mack in a key driver that the giants needed to score on in. The second half and he takes down Daniel Jones for the easiest sack of what might be the easiest of of of Kleenex. Career. That is stuff that just cannot happen. At this point it is messing up the entirety of this offense that they're still figuring out what they need to be doing and I. I guess Chris You could point to the fact that there was no preseason and maybe that is what's really hurting this giants offensive line because the teams that have a primarily mostly returning. Lying group is going to have less issues but the navy the preseason is a big reason why we're seeing so many communications issues already in two weeks yet that that really could be this is a brand new line even the returning players like, Nick Gates like a Kevin Zeitler will hernandez. This is a new blocking scheme. It's a new offensive language so. There is a lot to figure out. But even so you have to pick up. Khalil. Mack. That's a guy. You can't just assume somebody else's going to block if it. If you don't see anybody there to pick him up, you gotTa do something you got to do something to slow him down. He is too good to let run wild. We're going to transition to talking about the defensive notes from this game before we do. So we're going to take a short commercial break. 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There's a little something for everyone on the SP nation NFL show be sure to subscribe on Apple podcasts or your favorite podcast APP to be sure you don't miss a single episode. It was so clear when watching the tape and also during the game Chris that the defensive line was getting driven back, not only early in the game but it seemed like more and more as this game when on they were getting really really pushed back in. That is what allowed for some significant rushing yards in a time when the giants needed to stop them towards the end of this game. I another thing Chris that I noticed in line with that is when you have all of these heavy fronts of five men on the line of scrimmage and one linebacker back there it almost makes me wonder if when you're getting driven back if there's no one back there to pick up any of the. Any of the mistakes by the Defensive Lineman if there's no linebackers track down the ball. Where they're lined up, might be affecting how they're able to attack the running game. Definitely, I have some questions on what Patrick brand thinking with the giants run defense yeah, I noticed quite a few plays where it seemed like the giants were basically daring the bears to run it seemed like. They wanted to maybe Bait Mitchell trubisky into throwing the ball and then playing coverage in hoping to capitalize on mistakes. But the bears basically said you WANNA DARREN OKAY WE'LL RUN I saw more than a few plays where the giants only had one defensive Lineman or no defensive lineman on the field. Like you say, five man fronts, six man fronts. That is basically free yardage for almost any. NFL. Even, if they have a pass called, they'll audible to the run, and if they can get anything like a numbers advantage on either side of the Santer position, they're going to pick up big yardage. What we saw especially on the bear's final drive where they had back to back ten yard runs and the giants defense was just getting blown off the ball and a big part of that is for all of the size they have at their defensive tackle position they were light pretty much everywhere else. And we also noticed Chris how the giants defense was getting killed against outside zone. That was where a lot of the big yardage was being picked up by the spares. Offense was these outside zone plays and I think that goes back to issues with how they're lining up. So You keep there was a very high tendency in this game. I. Don't know the percentage, but if we tracked it, I would assume it would be over fifty percent for how often they were lining up with five guys on the line of scrimmage, and if you don't have if you have everybody, do their job along the defensive line by just playing their gap just. A little bit if everyone is just a somewhat close to playing their assignment, there's not enough guys behind them to go track down the ball. If all the gaps are filled, because outside zone is looking for the furthest outside rushing lane to take the ball. So if he's able to get past the tight end or the left tackle or right tackle, there's not really enough linebackers to go find the ball and I think that was a big reason why they were able to pick up a lot of yards on those plays yet, and there were the other cases where maybe a linebacker would run to get out to string that out towards the. Sideline and then a cutback late lane would open up and. Somebody like to rick owner David Montgomery they've got the feet and the vision to see those cutback lanes and hit them and the giants would also give up yard that way. Yeah. I. Also noticed the. The, giants need more speed on the perimeter of their defense. It was particularly apparent against to re Cohen in Cordeiro Patterson, but they're really athletic dudes. But they just seem to be playing at a different speed then the giants defense was. Seemed like there would be guys in position to defend them, but they just couldn't get there in time like they couldn't adjust to. Meet Cohen. Patterson speed. I saw Blake Martinez a few times almost it almost seemed like he whiffed on a tackle but that was really more just because he couldn't get himself turned around in time to make the play before they were passed him Chris a huge crushing blow for this defense that I think really hindered them. From being more effective. In key situations was giving up big plays after they make big plays the way that you were when we were talking before the show is an inability to string together big plays in a row. So we would see sacks, there were four sacks. In this game we would see sack by the pass rush great plays making it second and fifteen third and fifteen or sixteen, and then giving up A. Ten to fifteen yard gain. That is not what you want with defensive consistency. Because if you give up more yards than you took away with a sack or tackle for loss, it's counterintuitive. There needs to be more big plays strung together and more stops after a sack sacks and tackles for loss are supposed to be DR killers mostly sacks. But if you get a sack, it should shutdown offenses drive. Enough to get them off the field instead it seems like every time they sack it opens things up immediately for a big game. Yeah. The. It, that happened on almost every single one of the bears drives. The I drive, it was almost every other play. The giants defense would make a play they get a tackle for loss or maybe a tackle for a short gain and then give up a seven eight fifteen yard gain on the next play. The the touchdown at the end of that I drive came after they had limited the bears to one or two yards in the first two plays that. After, they converted the previous I doubt that's a situation where the defense should. Be At worst limiting the offense to a field goal and instead just. Everything breaks down trubisky escapes the pocket flips to Montgomery and The defense doesn't seem to know what to do. Nobody's imposition stop him. He runs through the entire defense. Guys are diving all over the place and it winds up being touchdown and it happened again and again. where the giants would have a good play on defense and the bears would almost immediately get it all back. It almost makes me wonder if the defense was phoning in after making these big plays and just saying themselves all we made a sack. We're such a great defense that they weren't focusing on the next play and that would make any coach furious for doing that. So I think that's quite possible mentality reason forgiving up those big plays after creating sacks and tackles for loss last bit here some credit given for. An underrated part of this defense, James Bradberry and pieces of the giant secondary played phenomenally in this game and immediately I want to point to James Bradbury is the guy who led. This great performance, this is a very different secondary because there is now a guy who can cover number one receivers. Make turnovers shutdown number. One guys we saw him keep Allen Robinson in check for most of this game and two of the interceptions were because of him were plays because of him one because he ripped the ball out of Allen Robinson's hands. And made a really really good play on the ball in the second one is because he contested a very tight pass that trubisky should not have thrown in the direction of Alan Robinson that ball popped up in the air for Julian. Love to then pick off Ya, I would say Bradbury was definitely the brightest spot on the giants defense and really he might have been the brightest spot on the team as a whole against the bears. The the second interception, the one we're bradberry ripped the ball away from Alan Robinson, which is the thing you never see happen I will say the giants did get a little bit lucky there that Trubisky, he honestly made the same mistake that Daniel Jones did on the interception that was targeting Evan Ingram he basically had that ball thrown before he even took the snap. You know he was never going to be going anywhere else Robinson was basically double covered and it had he had the giants best cover corner on him. Meanwhile Cordell Patterson was running free and open across the field right at the first down marker that could that whole series could have gone very, very differently for the giants. trubisky had looked anywhere else but instead, he didn't end bradberry made them pay other things that really stood out to us was not only good performances across the board from players on the secondary darnay homes at a couple of big plays Jillian love with the interception. As we mentioned, we also noticed some good pass coverage by the giants outside linebackers role in the Renzo Carter looked surprisingly good in space despite supposed them supposed to being the lead pass rushers. It's good to see that they can do multiple things on passing plays and caused that kind of confusion because you don't know if he's going to come in rush up the field or if he's going to drop back and cover a running back. Tight. End both of them had saks and also both look pretty good coverage. Yeah. I was actually particularly surprised by how well fat played in coverage yet he's he's not an off ball space linebacker he is not is Ahah Simmons by any stretch of the imagination but when he dropped in coverage and when the play was in front of him I. I thought he had some pretty good awareness of the play to put himself in position and I. I liked his movement skills in rained. When he was coming down field, he limited the bears to a couple. Just short gains could have gone for much further. They probably saw an edge in space I like that matchup will go at him and Becker responded. One thing though with the secondary, it is worth pointing out. Chris I am not a fan of on the recently traded for corner added to this giant secondary to me. He has been a bit of a hole in the secondary despite there being. A lot of good play from various skies across the board I see a lot of mistakes from him in most notably the easy touchdown that he almost gave up if Anthony Miller had not dropped the ball early in the game he also had a number of issues with reading things in front of him and dropping in the wrong times I I I need to see more from him for a guy that they traded for. If not the giants need to go out and priority this upcoming off season needs to be to get a second outside corner. Yes. I'm not sure what their other answers are on the team because Corey Ballantyne he is in we both like him but I don't think he is really an answer. He's good. Special teamer. He's a good depth guy but I'm really not sure he is a starting cornerback that you can feel confident in opposite James. Bradberry just like you autumn. The. Offense is the giants are going to see going forward this year they're gonNA be watching the tape and if bradberry keeps playing well, they're knocking to really challenge him. They'll look at the other guys they'll challenge darn homes they'll challenge Yada or ballantyne or whoever happens to be the other coverage guy on the field. They bradberry. Played Great. But he can't cover the whole field by himself. He's only one guy. Exactly because bradberry could make a tremendous play against a better quarterback, they're going to recognize mistakes by Yada Isaac on the other side if he's not proper properly playing his assignment so that needs be addressed. I don't know if you can tell him he needs to play better I don't know how much that's going to really do the giants need to get a premier corner to play opposite of James Bradberry and I'm going to say this from now. Until the pick is in for the twenty twenty, NFL draft that the first two picks in this year's draft need to be a linebacker and a corner if they can get to those those those positions settled this giants defense could be good. It goes in line with a lot of stuff that we've talked about today and on other shows if they can fix those two positions I think that this defense could possibly turn themselves into a very talented group. Yeah I agree they. I would also like to see them get like that ace pass rusher. Maybe, that could go along with Linebacker we've talked about Mak- Parsons a bit already. I'm sure we'll talk about him some more. had. There are some really interesting guys. Coming up in this draft class. I'm intrigued by Quincy Rocha Down in Miami I think he's got an interesting build at six four to fortyish you know maybe he could be that guy who can really force defenses to keep track of him as a linebacker and as a pass rusher but I'm right there with you on the in the secondary as well. They need a number two corner. We'll try not to go too far down the NFL draft path this early that definitely not make. It makes giants fan too happy to honor to be talking about that. Hopefully, things do turn around will already be looking at this upcoming class, and at some point we'll be feeling you in in letting you know everything you need to know about that group. Thanks for Tuning in folks to this episode Be Sure to follow on social media at Jodi Leone at Raptor K. I. Chris, and also at big blue view as well as heading to big blue view dot com per usual Thursday we will be doing the free view show for the San Francisco Forty niners as giants will face them is upcoming Sunday. Hi. I'm Brian and I'm one of the hosts of the Amazing Avenue Network of podcasts each weekday we bring you a different podcast covers the New York mets from a different perspective. Every Monday. You could hear me Steve along with Kenan Lucas on from complex cleans where we discussed the mets minor league system, every Tuesday, an unforgettable join me rebel. They look back on the career of a less heralded. Mitt. Hi I'm Alison and along with Maggie Linda I host a pot of their own each week we look at all things, mets and social justice issues in baseball. I'm Chris, and you can catch Brian me chatting about the current state of the mets on Amazing Avenue Audio, the show every Thursday, and then Friday's we have amazing avenue in conversation where I top with interesting people about the New York mets. So check out the Amazing Avenue family of podcasts you can get us on apple podcasts, spotify Stitcher, or your culture of choice. And as always. Let's go mets.