6 Episode results for "Chris Forbes"
150: Derren Brown | Using the Power of Suggestion for Good
"Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan harbinger. And I'm here with my producer Jason to Philip. Oh, man. I'm excited for this one. I have been trying to get Darren Brown on this show for over a decade. And finally, it's happening. If you heard feedback Friday, you know that I went to his house, and he's got props from his shows there. He's got all these taxidermy animals like two headed snakes in two headed caps and six legged piglets and his house is just like something out of Sherlock, Holmes antiques, everywhere secret passageways, and he is just the coolest guy I'm trying to fan boy out so much year. But I just can't help myself this guy Darren is a genius. First of all if you haven't seen any of his work, imagine a magician or allusion, est. I don't even know what you call him at this point. He convinces people to. In theory, murder someone by throwing them off a roof. Of course, the guys harnessed in but convincing people to do that convincing people who are racist to jump in front of a bullet for who. They think is an illegal immigrant. I mean, it's just his mind. Tricks are insane. Not to mention fake, faith, healing hypnosis all kinds of it's just absolutely. He's one of the most incredible people alive today. I'm not even kidding. I just I just love what he does. Jason. You're obviously familiar with Aaron Brown. I am I was introduced to Darren Brown about seven years ago when we first met you sent me some of his videos, and I've been a fan boy ever since. And I am so jealous that I did not get to come to London to meet Darren in person because I am a huge fan of his work. He's just like you said, he's a genius his house. Sounds like everything that I would expect it to be exactly exactly. And today, we're talking about how psychological manipulation works hypnotic suggestion. We're talking about all kinds of. Elements of the show that you just can't get anywhere else there so much in this episode from how psychic fraud works to how faith healing works to how he comes up with his tricks and his allusions how he tests the shows in the experiments, there's just everything I always wanted to know in this episode and more. So please enjoy I hope you enjoy this fraction as much as I loved recording it and being able to do it. It's just it's really incredible. And if you want to know how I get people like this in my network and create connections with people like this. Well, I'm teaching it to you level one the courses free. It takes a few minutes per day. Check it out Jordan, harbinger dot com slash level one. All right after trying for over ten years to get him on the show. Here's Darren Brown. One of the things that I've liked about your work for a long time. Well, first of all this. This was a pleasure to prepare for because very rarely do. I get to watch twenty to thirty hours of magic and allusion Rita. A good book about. Penis. And you've. Reza? Oh, yeah. And then, of course, go and try things that I tried ten years ago. I was telling you before the show with with the the switch of the painting and a link to this show notes, the YouTube video where people are walking by remember trying this in law school, I guess sort of failed or escape X lawyers. Escapee ex you're an exploit as well. Right. We're always like I have hypothesis that we just went that way. Because we didn't know what else to do with ourselves. And then went screw it. I can't do this. Exactly, correct. Yeah. It's sort of like we have what it takes to do something. And we aim our energy in the wrong place. Because can't go wrong being a lawyer, exactly. Which is exactly my everyone's telling you 'cause here in this country. You choose you making those decisions you you've been do a levels when you're sixteen seventeen around already having idea of what you're going to study at university, which goes is any of the one you'll one subject that's going to be law, so sixteen choosing the levels you're going to do to so to. Support that which means in level below I levels, you're you're GNC's, which kind of like fourteen year ready beginning to think what direction you've got ahead because you're narrowing your subjects down, and it's just ludicrous by the time you've. Yeah. By the time, you're actually old enough to know what you wanna do you think of always thinking in the future? Isn't it? Always thinking these rungs on the ladder as opposed to just right? You know? One of the reasons I went was because I didn't know what else to do with my life. Get the most basic of retail jobs outta than maybe selling CDs at best buy which I think here is called like J B. Hi fi or virgin Tower Records, and I just thought well, I'm not going to do that with my four year education and somebody who doesn't know you from Adam is like you should be a lawyer you like arguing okay, let me spend one hundred twenty thousand dollars in four years. Four years. Yeah. You'd fit right in with all these other people everyone hates. So why don't you join them? It it pays well from what I hear. Yeah. So you never did it you never. You never I actually did. I went through passed the bar in New York City went to work on Wall Street. And then when this is not what I wanna do. But only do it for four years. And luckily, well, my luck. No one else was because you look about nineteen. How old the thirty eight thirty eight right as long enough to next. Yeah. You will pass the bar. I go and work there for a couple years, the economy tanks, and I'm doing mortgage-backed securities, which is exactly what no longer works through the subprime mortgage loan pool things. And so they go. Hey, look, all you have to find a new job more likely. You know, so apply to be like a patent lawyer. And they go great. You've got to do all this other stuff. And I went screw this. I just like doing interviews. Do these interviews for a little while? And then once I really have to get a real job, then I'll figure it out. And luckily, I'm still waiting for that moment where this all comes crashing down. I would imagine that happens with any creative career you ever wake up and go. What happens if nothing works out for me anymore? I have to start over. I feel like a little strings to my boat now. So I didn't worry about it too much because actually the stuff that is least on the sort of my control like a broadcaster gang. That's it. That's the stuff. I kind of sort of enjoyed least. Anyway, the stuff I really do. Enjoy is just me getting no does not necessarily the stuff that owns be money. I suppose it probably just kind of enough to take by. But I enjoy it mall. So that's I kind of don't worry about it. Too much. Yeah. I suppose at the point of which you're doing a Broadway show coming soon with any sunny luck then double net flicks. All over the UK household name. There's a point at which if everything comes crashing down. You're just like, I'm retired. So yeah, that'd be nice. But I I don't know whether I stopped what being. What you do because you have to you. What you feel it lost? Without you know, I think happily it happy not make TV, but I wouldn't want to know tool. But that if you're gonna toll you kind of need you need to have the presence that TV gives you otherwise known wants to come and see you on stage tonight on how it work, but I paint and take pictures and write that be how would you describe what you do? Because magician doesn't really doesn't seem like that's quite the same thing. You know, when you think magician, you think pick a card any card on my gosh, they barely saw that. Where's the where's the coin? Right. And there's nothing there's anything wrong with that. But what you're doing is kind of like, wait, how did you convince someone to murder that man, which is was the coin, and where's the coast? I vote both easily. That's that's yeah. I started off as a hypnotist. So when I was at university, I studied law as we said by. Sora guy do a show which unusually for hypnotise wasn't. It wasn't a kind of embarrassing. Festival of horrendous. Like, a lot of state ship is it was actually it was fascinating and hilarious. But it was intelligence, and it wasn't embarrassing. So I left the show that night thinking and saying to my friend. I remember I am going to I'm going to do this. So it was my first love was learning how to hypnotize. So I was student with lots of other students around me that we're really interested in in being hypnotized. So I I was desperate for the tension in the perform thing in may. And I was insecure, and I think hypnosis really taps into a desire to control mom ously as does magic and in some way. So if you don't feel very impressive in yourself both of those really tick that box and. Kind of became a real a real passion. And then I drifted in more doing close up magic because it was a bit more commercial. It was a bit of an easy thing to to actually make a living out of them hypnosis, but you kind of want certain conditions to a hundred and so on and then I I wrote I lived I never worked as a lawyer. I ju just ticking performing I've read a couple of books magicians, which got me well known in that in that world, and I drifted into this, psychological. Type of magic called to man at the time. I think they really only four or five men to surround. There's a lot more now. Probably because of the the shows I did in the UK's became very popular thing in the UK in that. I guess that's spread out of it. And I got signed up by TV company that it's been a couple of years looking for someone that could do that kind of thing. This was back in ninety nine two thousand the first special went out in two thousand on channel four in Britain. And they repeat to the show the repeat did quite well. So they commissioned another one, and then and then on that point is David Blaine just become a been a big thing. And nothing we in Britain wanted like an onset of that. And so I think I sort of fit that Nisha forbid, and then slowly it kind of became its own thing. And I that was two thousand it was a while ago. And I I grew up the desire to kind of go. Hey, look at me, anti clever became less interesting. And I realize that I think one of the reasons why magic becomes magicians subtle being interesting and then after while become easily. Kind of lampooned. Fun to make fun of is that you kind of you all just sort of posturing, and people sense that offer. Well, so I've tried to move because there is something that reads something interesting about magic. But it isn't certainly isn't a magician pretending to have special powers. That's not interesting. What's interesting to me? Is that taps into the way? We tell ourselves stories about what's real and the way we constantly editing are are experienced to to sustain a a narrative for ourselves, which we need to is. Anyway, we can navigate through life. Weirdly, a magician is providing a really neat sort of example of how that was you know, you watch a contract, and you go, well I picked a card, and then he never touched the calls and the car disappeared that was in my pocket. How did you do that you probably everything you need to answer that question? How you've seen in this happened right in front of you. But you've edited those bits out because they didn't seem important at the time. And of course, we do this all the time. So I've tried to move that is few years away from that standard remit of look at me. I'm clever to I take more of a backseat and the the stars of the shows if you like all the members of the public that are going through normally big Truman show, like psychological experiments, where they don't know that part of shows and surrounded by actors and big kind of dramatic. We ended the world for one guys clock ellipse. Yeah. So this is quite big high-concept things. He wakes up in some be infested post-apocalyptic. After we'd spent like months putting cameras in his house. Putting fake news feeds into his phone and his TV we were recording special edition, special episodes of TV shows that it wants. It would have like news guests on. So we could get well known scientists coming on and talking about Meteo strike that was going to happen. So we ended we ended the world. But actually, it was the whole thing for him was a lesson in valuing. What you have there's an old stoic lesson about to value. What you have and not take it for granted, you you should rehearse not having those things, you know. So and you kind of forced him we sort of force that. Yeah. That situation on him. But it worked it was. It was a lovely lovely thing. So, yeah, this is this sort of grown up with me ever the is. So I was really long awfully gums. Okay. I loved apocalypse, and I'll back up a little because I think a lot of people are going. What are you talking about? What we're seeing with like sacrifice, which is on. Netflix the push which is on Netflix apocalypse, which is on YouTube. Sorry, we're encouraging people to like steal your steal steal away. These are like you said the Truman show if people have seen that movie, this is everything around them as sort of staged and or fake. And so this kid wakes up said he thinks he's going to a concert or something like that with his brother, I guess wings up in fake hospital. Zombies all over the place. Some guy picks them up in a van. He's got a rescue this little girl who actually turns out to be. Well, I don't wanna spoil it, but he actually has to rescue this little girl, and he sort of finds all these levels of courage that he obviously never had because this is a guy who can't keep a job sleeps on the couch and goes drinking every night does trying to find a funded stroke, dramatic, hook and a good reason for for doing it. That's the real message of the show so sacrifice which is new ones. This this is on Netflix. So it's a bit more accessible, I take a guy who's a very right wing American die with strong anti immigration rat as he says, I'm not racist. I just I'm not ready white people. Yeah. Yeah. It's obviously he's worth maybe you should Google what racism it's actually defined as. Yeah. And I have him lay down his life for Mexican illegal immigrant to take a bullet for furniture legal immigrant in a in a essentially a gun standoff gunfight. Not a gunfire is one gun. So he fight with one gun is. But a standoff, it's. Yeah. So so so so that that's that's that's the idea. So he's part of this world. He knows that there's some filming happening because he thinks is part of a documentary. Some not completely out of it. Normally, I I I'm not in the show at all. Because obviously, people know me at least in the UK. So this was a sort of a half fiction thing. What he he felt he was part of one show then finished and was being filmed in England that he goes back home. So he's gone. The change process has happened for him. I use these psychological techniques to change him and changes feelings about immigrants in particular, open up, some empathy and change that. And then as I do this with with the shows the idea is then if they felt that if they know that being part of one show for the actual final tests that has to be no sensitive part of a TV show toll. Has to be a real life. And a life changing thing for him. So he goes, my Kobe, and then a couple of months later, we've staged thing. He doesn't realize he thinks he's going to see a friend in in Vegas, but get stuck in LA outside of LA in the desert. The car breaks down and one thing leads to another. And he's in the middle of this hidden camera elaborate experiment, wary has a gun pointed out, you know, he has a chance to step up and save a life by laying down his own extraordinary. They really emotional things to go. A clearly I mean, clearly for the guy these huge emotional things. We'll have for awesome for me. You got through the very, yeah. She spent like a year making these things and they're very ambitious and difficult. You have to sustain the whole fiction for the person going through it as well as actually do it. So yes, I've done a number of these. And they've taken an interest in illusion and persuasion and just good ways of living. And thinking and that whole business of the stories that we live by and trying to put them to. To sort of you know, good and entertaining news. You're listening to the Jordan harbinger show with our guest Darren Brown. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by athletic greens. I love athletic greens, and taken this stuff for a while. Jason I know you've been taken it for years, you're probably half your primate out half athletic greens, by now, I actually had some for breakfast this morning. Yeah. These things are legit. I mean, it's got a whole bunch of guy health. I'm sure that it's not just for guys by the way, but there's a whole bunch of adapted Jin's energy, immunity, booster stuff digestion antioxidants help manage stress mood, healthy ageing. What I like about it is I don't have to worry, especially when I'm traveling a bunch or eating a lot of, you know, hotel, food or conferences or training and stuff like that. I don't have to worry about the fact that I've had one salad in five days. Right. 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The skill share has come in so handy recently jen's been learning a bunch of stuff I've been cracking these things open people are starting to make skill share jokes because I've been talking about it a lot. So that's how you know, you're ineffective brand of Angeles. When people start making skill share jokes around you. So they've got like twenty five thousand classes, designed business social media marketing mobile, photography, creative writing illustration, whatever. So if you're looking for a hobby, you're looking for a side hustle. You want to learn some professional skills. Skill share will keep learning and you can hit those New Year's resolutions. I made personal growth resolutions. I hate the term resolutions. It's more of a plan, but I made them, and I will be using skill share for some of that and classes are better than books for learning actual skills. I love reading read several books a week, but classes are just better than books for learning practical skills, and that's why like skill share Jason telling the deal we got for him. Join the millions of students already learning on skill share today with a special offer just for our listeners. Get two months of skill share for free. That's right. Skill shares. Offering the Jordan harbinger show listeners two months of unlimited access to over twenty five thousand classes for free to sign up. Go to skill share dot com slash harbinger. At H A R B I N G E R again skill share dot com slash harbinger. To start your two months. Now that skill share dot com slash harbinger. Don't forget we have a worksheet for today's episode. So you can make sure you solidify your understanding of the key takeaways from Darren Brown that link is in the show notes at Jordan. Harbinger dot com slash podcast. Thanks for listening in supporting the show to learn more about our sponsors and get links to all the great discounts. You just heard visit Jordan, harbinger dot com slash deals. If you'd like some tips on how to subscribe to the show, just go to Jordan, harbinger dot com slash subscribe. Now back to our show with Darren Brown. What are we actually seeing here because I think a lot of people when they think hypnosis they're thinking, and I've seen this elsewhere in your work where they're carrying the guy outside and he wakes up on the lawn. And he's like, well, how did I get outside? And then he walks back in people or somebody's gonna walk around on stage. And then click like a chicken, we don't necessarily think of a subtle psychological manipulation or hypnotic suggestion when just kind of what's happening with especially in sacrifice where you're playing a jingle and it cues something up. Yeah. These sort of suggestions to get people to take certain courses of action it if you don't know anything about what you're doing. There's probably plenty of people online. I haven't seen this. But I would imagine there's a lot of people that go. This is just fake the guys pretending. I've always had a lot of a lot of that. I think it's many maybe because it's it's not necessarily stuff that would work on everybody. So with most of the shows, and it varies the most of the shows, I'm using people that I've selected from group of applicants, and you see this is how the shows start here all the applicants, and I've got to choose one. And I'll choose the person that I think is suitable. So in the sacrifice the guy fill that we use I needed somebody with these strong views, but also somebody who's suggestive. And and and also it's important with him. He's not like a monster racist guy, his actually although you probably saw it off not liking him very quickly. You kind of. Be kind of filled enough of the gun release. It goes on bad for him. Initially just didn't seem like the sharpest like something. He'd obviously gone through something that made him dislike people that weren't white. He said it was his upbringing. But it might have also been maybe couldn't get a job. And he was having a rough time as easy scapegoat. Yeah. And so yeah, I wanted to kind of every man figure that we kind of sort of relate to as well, not just a monster monster racist guy. So so maybe that's one reason that people on totally understand people to skeptical because the coin ambitious things, but if you choose a guy if you choose somebody that choose the right person it obviously makes life. So I'm not saying these techniques that I use it would just welcome everybody that Trump of the how they wouldn't try and explain that throughout the show. Once I've got my guy. What I'm generally doing is attaching strong emotions to certain triggers, so either overtly with my involvement or completely covertly and just something that happens in the guys live normally I'll make some event happened that makes him feel something very strong emotion. And then they'll be a sound or thing that he sees or something that happens environment the steals that it's like, you know, when you break up with a girlfriend and never some sewn playing on the radio on at the time. And yet hit this home for five years. And then you hear it again, it brings back all those feelings. Right. So it's actually very straightforward sort of conditioning. Really injuring is that what that LP language, it's anchoring or it's conditioning or it's triggering whatever. Yeah. But it's that's the idea you just kinda tach ING emotions to to triggers. So again normally with this shows and sacrifices, a good example. I want to get somebody in. Three point where they do something extraordinary on life changing for them without the nothing that that's what the show's about. So I can never approach directly. But what I can do is break down. I kind of look at this. Final thing. I want him to put his own life on the line and save a life for somebody else. Who's the loss person he'd have estan dominant will? So I kind of break that down. I think what what are the components of that that a needed and the newbie this things on their own can be framed is entirely positive, and quite of benign things that why wouldn't anybody wanted to be moral like the designed to act and to feel more empathy will be more open or whatever. So I create situations where those things can be explored and created within him. And then I touched them secretly. Two triggers on then in the end scenario. I could play present those triggers at the same time. And hopefully with the rush of all those things as they come together and the situation that's being presented in front of him. And this sort of opportunity, that's that's their hopefully, he takes the bait. That's that's the idea. I need is. You know, he's a changed man. Because of its yeah. I would imagine he has to rationalize that. He did that of his own free will so he couldn't possibly actually dislike. Yeah. But it was it was. It's it's I mean with some of the shows I did one that was about taking actually very similar structure the to make people hold up security van and still one hundred thousand downs. It's called the highest to get it's an oldest show is gonna be on YouTube somewhere. We'll we'll put links to all these. So that people come I highly recommend because sometimes are hard to find. There's little you watch them in the US ones. Yeah. That one was fascinating the one where they're holding up because I just thought all he all you did was well, there was all this prep. But then the trigger was just on the phone with them. And then suddenly they're walking down this empty street, and they decide to hold up the armored car, and I thought, but there's like five different triggers that going off right Hala, the color of this color is important as a slogan is a bit of music plays in a call that drives past. So I use I use some techniques to Creighton an assassination. So the idea was to see whether Sosa Sahan Sahan who's the guy still imprisoned full assassinating. Bobby Kennedy always said that he was hypnotized by the CIA. And it should it become one of those conspiracy. Right. Like, oh, maybe he was. Yeah. Well, it's just it's sort of the the question for me was regardless of whether he was a Wilson is it even possible as even plausible that sort of? And he laid out what they did. And how they did it. Oh, he did. Yeah. Yeah. He's got the whole story of how they did it, which is his story. I mean, he's he's also quite plausible guys. There was really enticing premise could you do that? Could you have somebody genuinely believe him at the last minute? It's a blind bullet. It's not a real it's not a real bullets. I don't actually get a home anybody as far as concerned is is associating somebody using the same techniques. Wasn't. He said he was on stage who was the audience in on it the audience would not in on. So they must have freaked out. Well, that was another thing that was interesting. So yeah. So basically, the guy has gone through again what he thinks is a documentary about hypnosis, which allows me to set up some of these triggers without him realizing full because I couldn't open the hypnotize him as. Pot of one TV show he thinks bottle when actually there's a hidden agenda. So the situation arises when he's just gone to an event nothing to do with us has no idea it was being filmed the audience not in on a toll Stephen Fry whose target is. Stephen is on it. And he's wearing Squibb's and everything he knows scared. He knows this might happen. So he's out on stage. And then we set off these triggers, and it was a polka dot dress. Which Sahan Sahan said was one of the triggers that they use that conditioned him to feel certain things with the Pocono address. There was a ringtone that we used someone's phone went off, and it was a little jingle little Choon that he'd also been conditioned with. And would he do it? Now, he does do it not dive. It's it's a spoiler. But he does do it. But it was interesting because we had we had this whole crowd control thing setup. Because what happens when the three hundred even the audience free impede ones right now. They didn't. Because there was this thing called normalcy bias, which means in these emergency situations. You just you sit and you look around no one else's panicking. Say you don't have the thing. Everyone guy. Oh, it's fake because why didn't the audience freak out, but they didn't freak out because they don't freak out. This is a story of pan. Am flight that had it landed on a Fulbe runway at night and another plane taken off over the top of it and rip the side of this plane off and there was a period of a few minutes that people could escape before this plane was engulfed in flames. And the only people that did with ones that I've been in a similar situation before or had training in this kind of world everyone else to south there and just burn because they look around and someone will take care of it. It's fine. Vice Stander affect is. Yeah. It is. It is that it's like if you have an emergency. You know, there's going to be a flood with is going to be, you know, you're just sort of always will be fine. It's not really going to affect me. Right. Is that natural bias to was. It'll be fine. If this house was on fire right now, and you didn't move. I probably be like, oh, it's just one of DARREN'S like things that he's yen is such a great example. Isn't it farnum goes off the one thing, you know, is it isn't a real fine. One thing you don't think is so many ways that was that was that was interesting aspect of it. But Jess without that sort of what I do my background is in magic, and sort of mind reading area of magic. And over the years, I've tried to move into this other. But I also do stage shows so you hope now should be in Broadway. This year, I didn't know fool by show for which we won the drama desk. A won't which is a no kidding. I think it was most unique unique kissed states. Production is is one of those words. That would be. But it was something about that. Which is very which is amazing. But yeah, so that that I did this off by fashion couple of years ago, and hopefully hopefully this year hopefully in the spring, I should be they're doing a Broadway version, so that is more of a kind of more traditional kind of state Shelvin it. But even then I try another loss show is about faith healing. I did faith. That was awesome. I this is our Netflix miracle. It's it's really good. I'm trying not to be super fanning all over because I. Yes, sir. No, let's let's lease left. My ego. It's fine. That was really interesting. And that's something. I want to ask about more later. But I know you were a Christian until it was at your mid twenties. Yeah. Yeah. I was until. Yeah, it's supposed to mid universities at a time. Yeah. When you look at historical healers old biblical miracle stories and things like that knowing what you know now about influence persuasion psychology, illusions, how much how much are allusions high tech, and how much do you think wait a minute. This this technology if you will it was around three thousand years ago. This could be fake. This could have been something somebody did too as a scam. And now it's now it's this law that we base our lives of on. I think well, I think in terms of I sort of have people all sometimes what would you think the miracles in the bible, but just magic tricks. I think it's sort of the wrong question. I think the how those stores arrive is more think more to do with how those how those titles get formed off. The event. So that you can you know, if you're if you're a young Christian community growing up in some other part of the world, and you kind of need your ram, you need your backstory to justify your response to the difficult is that you're facing in your own time. So you need your you need us stores, and it was very sanded in those days to to recreate stores and put words in the mouth of people your view if you'll figure you'll good long since died. So I think a lot of that store is really just things that have come out since two in order to to tell a story or teacher lesson that is useful for this communities hundred two hundred years later, so I think that's more than well. Geraint raw Robin, actually, how did he turn the Welsh into wino- chemistry, which they didn't have? Now. It's this. Yeah. That makes sense you hear about like Roman writings than having some quote from like, I dunno Marcus are really whatever. And then it's like, oh, wait a minute. Now that was said by this prophet. And it's like, well, we have this written over here in this other part of the world, and then it went out through through Greece. And then suddenly by this religious guy. I mean, we look at the the oracle Delfi that people were receiving these amazing messages, and then maybe also hallucinogenics involved. But essentially, it seemed to be people sort of wanting to believe something and letting information sit and taking ideas that would probably quite general in symbolic, let them fit the specifics. And that's really no different to what you know, medium. Does today. I think that is hot capacity for self-deception, or at least two full narrative that serves us from whatever information being given that seems to be ages old. And just part of who we all. It is interesting to see even now something that you. You'd think people have gotten the memo about such as cold reading in psychic fraud. There's a video you did. I don't know ten plus years ago now where I I'll show people this because they'll go a friend of mine goes I went to this fair at my university when I was visiting my sister or his alma mater, and they had a psychic there. And I thought oh what the hell and oh my gosh. I think maybe there's something to this. And I said let me guess he's an Indian guy who's a graphic designer. And I said all called read you, I'm not psychic. Here's what I got your parents are disappointed in your choice of occupation. They want you to be a doctor or lawyer or professional your mom's really said. But she's just glad you're happy. She really is more concerned with who you marry your dad. However, he wishes that you could have done something a little bit more quote unquote respectable. They don't understand the work that goes into your craft. And he's like, whoa. Aren't you psychic? And I'm like, I'm telling you, I told, you know, you're just like every other Indian dude in America whose parents are immigrants graphic design literally you didn't. Didn't become a doctor or a lawyer. You're part of your family's disappointed your mom wants you to marry an Indian girl and your dad is kind of annoyed that you didn't become an engineer. The end like this is universal. And then you get the worst things I've seen sitting in a studio audience. You know, the song kicks come out on on a TV show. They have their audience. And then before they started filming this guy comes out and says send you putting hoping that someone's going to come through today. And we'll these hands go up, and he just people. So who did you lose? How did they die? What was the name is the summit of information? That would prove to you that it's genuinely them people are just giving this information, then they start the cameras rolling. And he comes out and says all that stuff straight back. And it's if you have a dose of skepticism they going so transparent is yeah. But if I think because the lie is so ugly. It's just so much easier to believe how he must be doing it for real because he wouldn't just be asking us what to say. And then just saying it just to make cry because it looks good on camera. Surely wouldn't just be doing that he'd have to be like proper pass. Mr. That'd be really nothing. So I think I think it's easier to believe the the line because it's it's sometimes the truth is so ugly having said that although I I've spent a lot of my career debunking that stuff again, I think the I think it's more interesting than the question of all is psychic powers real of the mediums real. Well, I mean, no. But I think that's not. It's not really that. Interesting. Interesting question to me is why are the mediums so perennially popular? And what is it about on narratives around death? For example. You know, as we as we dispense with superstition so much of the last couple of hundred years, particularly anything morbid, and that now death is now something that is to be full tough all means is the becomes became the enemy all system of medicine. A couple of hundred years ago is still the engine Greek medicine about humas and the phlegm in the fire and the vile and all of that. I mean, there's any fanny recently we've sort of embraced what? To us now seems proper medicine everybody a few hundred years ago, so given that and given the lack of cultural narrative now around death that provides would provide as base it a real. Meaning we don't have. We don't have any meanings around Beth. I'm like a lot of cultures that do so this. So the only real narrative we have in place now is is the the brave battle at someone's fighting. That's that's that's a sort of a narrative that tends to fit into place. It doesn't do any good for the poll person. That's dying. Of course makes everybody else. I think feel better for that. One person you now getting failure to alone list of problems that are already exists. So it kind of makes sense that that one time when actually because he's the one time, and you need to be most aware of the narrative that you're forming when you wanna take authorship of you'll story because you know, when a book finishes that lost seen or a film finishes that loss in it makes sense of everything that's happened before. And it doesn't happen in life. Right. So we have to. Just end. So we have to really find our in stores at this time that matters most. And it there's nothing that help us for that. If we don't find it on run because there's all those narratives of sort of gone, we don't really respect that anymore. But of course, this opens up a big gap for any told ry peddler of share some semblance of meaning to come on pack out. Right. We're filling the gap in got guys. Like Ari Geller like outright charlatans that just have. No shame whatsoever. That guy must be some kind of sociopath or something. I mean, he just has no qualms about telling people that he's talking with their dead, relative or taking money and going this is where your family members theory. Does I think he's avoid to that? I think it's he's avoid very just into positive thinking. Now, I think he's more self help guy now. Yeah. I don't know. But certainly there are plenty of people that do not one of my stage shows I had fifty people up on stage. And I would do this kind of thing. And I was I would do the medium ship and at the same time be debunking it. So I would be giving information that was. Totally correct. Got you'll grandmother here. Her name's Alice. And she's saying she's not saying anything, I'm lying to you understand this. But she's saying that teddy in that used to play with teddy when you were young I'm just making this up, but is destroyed. Yes. So I was sort of trying to keep it in that interesting. It's fake. It's real at the really early on in the run. I went out to stage door was talking to people off to his and signing things. And the skill set to me, can you can you put me in touch with my grandmother. And I said, what do you do get from the show that I'm not really doing it? I'm trying to kind of debunk in show that it's not real. And she don't annoy you, I know it's not real. But could you could you put me in touch with our man? It was fascinating. Just how festival how you can completely hold those two realities right on. And what what that is just what appeal. I mean. I'm you know. You know, I don't believe in any of that. But but I lost my grandfather. Shortly offers us talking to woman who said she was psychic. And when she started to say on he's here is here in the room. Now, it's hard to just let that me nothing and just rush out of you. I mean, you only they're gonna get annoyed about it. Which actually was mine response. That's not what tone tacky just tacky. Or you want to do. What's what did you say that? But it's it's it's very hard to select that, right? Like you want it so bad, and there's a point zero zero one percent chance that this is real like, I'm going to hear this person out, and you just get emotionally invested in rapid their feeding you I guess at that point. Yeah. And I did a whole documentary series called Durham Brown investigates. And I would suspend time with people that were making some sort of supernatural claims of some sort and one of them one of these guys psychic, and I think by any standards he was fake. I mean looking back on it. I mean, the we just caught him. 'cause you can come prove a negative county. But it's closed you can catch someone to cheating. I mean, we just sort of did again, and again, so there's really no doubt about it in that sense bought despite the fact that he's seemed to be clearly just getting information from here in passing it off as something else. He's still I think in the industry way, maybe I'm just being charitable, but sort of still believed it, and if he was having people say to him. Yes, you must be psychic. And you'll help me by saying this he was sort of helping people in the noise able to rationalize this in his own mind. It just felt like a strange sort of closed loop that he was in. I thought well maybe in a weird way. Maybe he is. He is the psychic. He's playing that role. And and. Also, why is he letting me into even fill them? Anyway, if he knows if you know that you'll just fake why would you risk that sort of exposure? And it was just it was interesting to see when you get close to it. How it so very gray complex area from the outside. It's an easy. Yes. On is. It real isn't note. We'll know, but as you get into I think is a very rich. Interesting Arab again, how we just how the stories that we foam and what we will. We need to hear. You're listening to the Jordan harbinger show with our guest Darren Brown. 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I think it was like a scuba instructor. And you take it for like, six months, and you're like, you're going to be a faith, and it really looked a party and long hair and dressed up sharply in a suit, and then he comes to the United States and he fills half fills this room because he didn't want it. He didn't want to abuse this publicist to fill the room up massively. He's trying to convince people that he's a faith healer. And then at the end is kind of like, and this is completely fake, and people are just crying because they wanted to believe it, and it's it's almost like a a medical procedure on a child where you're like, I hate hurting this kid, but I can't leave this. Yes, you really sensitive. Tricky. A tricky thing that was that was my first taste of the faith healing. So in the last this last stage show, which is the one on. A Netflix could miracle. I did it myself because I was I just really got the bug frit by from training this other guys the other show was called miracles for sale which was a channel four show a few years ago. And yeah, it's just a documentary following this guy. It was it was so interesting. I think what the well. Well, what I learned from doing it myself in the state show is the it's the psychological component of suffering. So cutting to the state show that I did. So an audience that are skeptical light me they are not coming to the show thinking is going to be any hailing which is your biggest biggest weaponry as a as a halo two weapons about the real world. But what makes it work? Normally is you have an audience of believers that are already expecting to see some. So they're bringing their already psychologically prepared for it. And I I I'm going out doing the show two thousand people in the olden something, I really don't know if he's going to work. I'd enough things. I could kind of work mechanically like the some of the tricks that they use what I can I can get through that section and get to the end and have an ending. But if it doesn't really work much on that, then I'll think of something else about and I just say to the audience on know, you don't believe in this anymore than I did. But just go I'm going to play the part of the healer and just go with it. Because it's it's it's interesting and people did and then like within isn't. Just I thought people would come up and they'd say, oh, well, you know, my my back hurt. And now, it doesn't that'd be these small improvements. But I had people, you know, slain in the spirit, which is when you know, you touch someone the head collapsed shaking on the floor and was going on there. I found what did work was showing middle. Clips of when I'm talking about faith just little clips that would just show those little scenes like that. And it's just kind of know it too. Which is exactly what at the is. Anyway, because you're seeing it happen again and again on stage, so you'll sort of being educated as an audience member without realizing the suggestion is is is settling in. But I remember within the first week. There was a woman who came up she'd been paralyzed on one side of a body since he was a kid and she's in floods of tissues, forty something. I guess and can move move her arm. And knowing off tonight that were these it varied, but very often quite dramatic very physical things. I mean, nothing's changing if you had an x-ray before and after clearly there's no chain, but in that gray area that's more about again to repeat myself the story that they've settled into about the island. You know, if you wake up every day believing what I can't do this because I have this does the author world create the problem. What maybe the physical side might have lied about shoulder for long time. I still have and I say used to putting on my jacket with like a bit of a dead, arm and pulling pulling the sleeve up with this. I still do that. I don't know if I really need to do that now. And if somebody got me up and said your shoulder is healed to made a big fast. I said now go on not put your jacket on normally. I'm a bit of adrenalin that's going to kill the pain. Anyway, by probably be fooled into thinking. Oh my God. You've just healed my shoulder. Had that years. So it's that sort of process, but the results were extrordinary, and even then I saw to think, well, maybe I could do this on a grand scale, and I could tell people it's entirely secular thing, and it may not work. It may only world for the ten minutes, you're on stage, or it may stay or it met, you know. But that's when you do start to get mad and get into whole ethical world of pain because my doing this for their own good. And so it's okay. If I'm yeah. Exactly. How do you not stop mad once you've once you've seen that? But it got it was it was extraordinarily. And really only opening literally opening sometimes, you know, blind things like share again, not not full like, you know. Ganic blindness. But so it's like if they're. Sideline clear, but they're only like maybe eighty percent deaf. So now they're convinced they can hear out of that ear lots of tricks around that that they use. Then you're in the world of sort of moving out of the suggestion that makes it work into just tricks. Some of the mechanical tricks that I've sort of been put through by healers as a law Beaumont, you see it on YouTube. But if you type in leg length, that's the one. Yeah. You see one where they just loosen up the person's shoes. Yes. Obvious. Look what it sort of. I if you believe it, right? It's such a stupid trick that I think if you if you pro Chit a someone that believes it looks like someone's here's a guy with a short leg, which is why the limp, and now we're going to lengthen the Lord's going to lengthen this person's leg, and as you look this person's leg. I mean, the the heels are sort of in the hills palms like this you see this legs stretch out. And then they without a limp. And it's one of the oldest tricks, and I have sat on stage and had the guy do it to me. You choose someone with shoes that you can loosen. And actually what you do is you you everyone's watching this leg lengthen. So you don't do the trick on that leg. You do the trick on the other leg you. You've pulled festival. They don't live, right. There is no problem with the like, you just say limping is what they just sort of go. Well, I didn't see him limp. But he said he was wanting to be not must have just missed that. You think you've seen it then that they hold the feet like this and they pull out one. So the other foot the other shoe is just pulled off a he'll little bit. So now, it does look like if you measure the legs this this is a little longer. Therefore, this one's too short. Actually, this is fine. This one you just pulled the hill of and then everyone's watching this. And you're saying this foot is lengthening you just slowly pushing this heel of the shoe slowly back onto that foot. But it doesn't look like if you're watching the other leg, it kind of looked like I'm watching the short-leg you're watching you're watching the other ones. It's sort of believable interesting. And then you get into run around and say, look, no limping they can run around fine. And everyone thinks healings happened. They could run find. Anyway, I have been bought out the audience and had this domain by quite big name healer in Dallas while we make in that documentary show, and the really interesting part of it, I left with was isn't remotely fooling for the person going through it and just how old Lee kind of insulting. That is. There's no sense of doing any good for that person. It's just about the showmanship is just about creating an effect the audience, you'll really kind of odd wasn't bothered by it. But you exploiting potentially very vulnerable person. Who's they're wanting a healing. God is what's wrong with them for just that? I mean, it was it was just sort of ugly ugly thing. It reminds me of Andy Andy kopplin. That's right. The filipino. Are. I don't know like Thailand healer, and he just starts laughing because he's looking down is this guy sort of like scrapes, bloody chicken meat guts. And he's like, oh, man. Yeah. Same thing. Right. He's he's since it's being done on him. And he sees it. He just goes this is all bullshit. Yeah. Which I've done that on stage as well. That's howling out the chicken from holding up the bits of us to bits of sponge was a bit less gross to do every night. But yeah, otherwise chicken entrails is what gets you, and you're kind of reaching into someone's stomach and pulling the stuff out, and again, not always very convincing for the person. Give because it's like, oh, I'm not feeling anything. Oh, well, I have a magic spell. So you don't feel the pain is your cancer is bad Steph, where do people learn this stuff? There's the camp. I haven't looked online. But I assume there's no school for like, hey, you want to become a con artist. Here's a bunch of faith healing tricks. Yeah. Do you know the really for me, the interesting part of it? It's it's it's a strange how between that and say the secrets the right burn manifesting thing. Yeah. Here's the message is and it's a sort of faith model. But the message is like throw your pills away. The Lord is healed you and if if any point this illness returns, which of course, it's going to right? That's because you didn't have enough faith maybe even thought about taking a pill again, or what are the way? It's your fault Sundays in the multiple. And it certainly isn't the heat is full. It's your fault because you didn't have enough faith and in the secret. She explicitly says that it is it is your fault. You didn't believe enough? You didn't know how you're supposed to visualize. Whatever it is. You you want which is Saturday always about money and jewelry. Yeah. I want to be religious necklace. And and then you have to act as if you've already got the thing you have to totally commit to it, which I think he's such a damaging. It's the same thing. The problem is just great songs onto in the feeling of failure and self blame. When of course that is sometimes not going to work that model of believe in yourself, ignore the haters ignore. The height is ignore the naysayers believe in yourself have a vision stick to it is occasionally motive success. It's also a perfect little failure. The Trump has been ever read the bog or visit the businessmen who who failed because we don't read those called survivor bias. Yes. So you follow your dreams? And it's like, oh that sounds great. Look, Mark Cuban's grace and rich entrepreneur says it, well, there's a ten thousand other people for each one of them who is out of their moms couch guy from apocalypse. Yeah. Has gone on following my passion, but I just not making any money. Yeah. Exactly. And you don't tend to read I got lucky. I got really locking right now. No, we we see the guy who spent thirty thousand hours trying to figure out how to get people to be persuaded by jingle and a fake news story. In their psychological triggers. How much practice do you think you've had altogether forty thousand dollars thirty thousand dollars you ever tried? No. I I don't know. I started when I was twenty and forty seven now if I self scattered but good. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. That's a it's a lot of it's a lot of practice in a lot of trial and error. I would imagine. Yeah. I remember having a real seminal moment in I had people would come to my rooms as when I was a student ties them, and I remember, I I leave them if they were responsive if they if they were good I'd leave them with a suggestion if they came back, and I said sleep click my fingers that go straight to sleep you need that needs that we got jet lag for days. She's gone. She's gone. Sorry. That's not totally. And this guy come back with us before. I said okay, sit down look at me sleep any went straight out. And then I we did whatever the hypnosis was. And then afterwards, I realized I'd never met him before. So then I'm thinking, well how how did use none of the groundwork? None. None of the was there. So why did he respond to make licking my fingers and saying sleep, which clearly there's nothing magical about doing that? And then I thought okay, what it was actually just my my belief in my confidence at the time. Just and the fat again. Luckily, he was very suggestive oil made that work. So that things like that just come not from necessarily the house. I mean, they do I guess, but then it's not about technique per se other than just realization of I think all I do is all everything I do is about seeing the thing from another person's point of view. And just that's the toolbox. That's the that's the toolkit is someone else's ongoing. What doing population is that suggestive oil where you'd think maybe you can just get him to sleep or maybe not quite that suggestive will. But it probably. As people respond. Well to placebo is probably dealing with the same kind of independ- diagram of those things. It's thirty percent. Maybe something like that. But like. But then it depends what you want. So when I'm doing my stage shows, and I've got a couple of thousand people like with with the faith healing that. I was doing, you know, I might get three hundred people come forward from an audience of say say three thousand and then I might get like the best ten up. So now, you're dealing with such a small. Yes, january. The always as always going to be an that one percent in a room is always going to be kind of extraordinary isn't. So that helps that kind of thing helps it doesn't mean they might feel like the whole audience is responding to something is the reality is you whittling down to the to the best. So you can create Lucien of it'd be more success is. Yeah. That makes sense. What are you looking for with these adjustable like in in the push, for example, you test them? Hey who stands up and sits down when they hear the bell. Yes. Netflix. But other things were are you ever just walking down the street, and you see somebody, and you go this person has these non verbal characteristics of highly suggestive oil type of person is that does that exist. I've done it for a long time. And I I've given. Up trying to do that. Because I don't I'm always surprised by. Openness and a natural tendency to sort of go along with ideas. And so on feels like it should be a good signify of suggests ability and a lot of the time it is. But I know how I am socially with people. I probably seem like that was I'm not very good hypnotic subject. But I probably am quite responsive to maybe things like CBA. We'll things like. I don't know just an expert that I admire telling me stuff that I'm going to absorb and take on my own which is another form of suggestive Minniti, but I'm not very responsive to hypnotists hypnotize me. I think something in my ego sort of maybe and likewise people that seem very standoffish and. Seem very kind of, you know, detached arms folded like the loss person, you'd think would respond sometimes that all comes from an old Lee insecure place, and if you get them into the right sort of type of interaction is they suddenly become hyper responsive, so I've given up I've given up trying to predict it. I I do it in situations where I can throw it out over a large number of people and work with the ones that right? And look for interesting. How do you come up with some of the tricks of the allusions I just kind of like you're walking through the mall with your partner? And you're like, you know, what if I made something like that come to life, and then vanished that would be cool right now. I don't know. Maybe no I normally have a two week period where we'll say with the state shows. It's like maybe a month. But the TV shows maybe couple of weeks. I've got to think of an idea. So the TV has nothing to do with like. Magic effects of any sort. It's something like well. Can we like in the push for example? She's is another one on Netflix. We were thinking about. Coming up. We'll ideas specific plots one of these things to put somebody through and then out of a sort of frustration. It's I'll come just it's a big party. Everyone's an actor off from one person. And can we make that one person to throw someone off a roof? Just so sometimes out of. There's an idea that I watched quite. Yeah. All right, cool. So now, it's an exercise in social compliance at the first thing, they're also the helping out at the party the first thing that has to do is to miss label meat filled sausage rolls as vegetarian sausage rolls. So they they like is that little bit of kind of you know. Get your foot in the door with the little thing there also and then bit by bit. Could you build up the point that they would actually kill somebody because that tells us that became that became the show? So it's that really excuse trying to come up with a fund strong hook. And then make sure that the the shows kind of got a good reason in a good message. And after the show and social compliance that one the push went out in Britain a few years. Two thousand sixteen or something. But some of the laws fee is that idea of like good people doing bad things, and how we can get persuaded by these narratives that we buy into become more relevant. So it sort of became became a different show somehow when it was put on the Bush on Netflix that pushes probably one of my favorites, if not my apps because of the social compliance aspect, and because when you watch that unless you are really good at rationalizing things to yourself, even even I know at certain extent, what you're doing with the little vegetarian flags or like getting people to sort of dig a little deeper into the lie that they're telling unless you are really really in denial. I think all of us can watch that and go shoot I could have probably done up to this point. Like, I wouldn't kill the guy. I would have given the speech about the Halim the donor. I probably would've like not have hidden the body. I wouldn't have kicked the dead guy. Put what I what I've kicked the dead guy. I mean, he's dead. Getting was watching I through most of my career. I've had people say to me all I wouldn't. I wouldn't do this run a done that. But I wouldn't have done that. And I think what's what's interesting to me is how we think about what we would do with the sense of self that we have which we think of in isolation, we think of ourselves, and again, this is this is an enlightenment idea that stuck around that we all sort of these that we should be these separate entities that are not being influenced by other people around us that we should be. Cetera. Smart defense. I'm too. Yes. Wouldn't work on me. I'm too smart. I'm too principled to insert good positive quality here. This guy would never be able to fool uncles that. That idea of the self light. That was born at a time when it was important not to be influenced too much by the church or the king. There was actually making a statement of saying that we all we should be free. Individuals is important, but we've bought so much into that idea that we miss that actually the self. I think is is a verb. I think we sell it's something that's very active, and it expands out fluidly into our environment into our relationships. And and it's very hard to make judgments about what you would do in a situation, wouldn't you know in that situation. And that's even something that extreme as murder you. It's. It you just can't judge you judgment distance and say what I wouldn't. I wouldn't do that. Because you'll make that decision isolation. At is totally different. And that's when when you're there and to me that is it's fascinating. Because it's I mean the shows it's funny and it's a bit like a weekend burn is. That was the kind of inspiration from it. Then the guys go Bernie the counter to the dominant. Yeah. I never thought that I and it's but actually at its heart was I think to me thing. Yes. The social how far compliance go. But also what? Our sense of self is. And how that drastically changes from context to context, how do you test this kind of stuff because I'm imagining how do you test whether someone's going to rob an armored car? You can't really none right now. You mean, the whole thing could just end up not working. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So then then well, there's different ways of doing it. So in some shows, we can be following four or five people. So it isn't just hoping that it doesn't need to work on all of them. Because I you've that's your result. If it worked one out of five worked in one out of five in a show like sacrifice, which is the current one. If he doesn't do the thing at the end, there's no going back and doing it again, you say you we're gonna read that. So you'd have to find a way of letting that failure sick within the narrative that would that maybe continue and find another way of going away finishing was to leave you with a satisfying ending. So that's that's the joy. Of TV. It's not changing what happened? But you can you can let what happened sit within a story that can of course, continue, and you can be truthful, but still make story satisfies fade is important and their failures within that show sacrifice a part of it. And they sit they sit fine within it. I think it's a bit like a juggler dropping a ball, honestly, occasionally, it's good to be reminded. These things aren't on just going to happen. Want to jump off into the rock? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And that's that's all right that failure. But like if he was like, I'm not taking a bullet for that guy. Shoot him. Shoot him. Can't you know? Now, what do we do with the production where he just looks terrible. But it would have been I mean, it would have been amazing to watch that and see fail. And then you'd be like, what are they going to do? Right. How they going to get out of the and then so that's that's still an interesting dramatically. Interesting place is that up to us to show that we do do something. Interesting nervous for you. When I say that though because I'm imagining you're in this control room going just shoot him jump in there. Please I've got to go to the bathroom hungry. Desert shithole town for like three weeks, filming this just shoot him and get it over with and shoot him before she must. Shoot them or give me the gun. Yeah. Exactly. Have you had ever had close calls where it's like someone almost blows it like they're setting something up and the guy gets home from work early. And you're like, don't leave the shed. Oh, we've had. Nathan shed. There was actually one of the show in apocalypse, and this is the end of the world wide zombie one. So yeah, so we had it's just a glimpse of how much work goes into these shows. So we had we'd recorded a special episode of a TV show that he watched. It wasn't that. It was the electrical interference from the Meteo. So we were taking things out of his call that the call this call wouldn't start and the phone. These phone would die in the TV suddenly just died. Right. As watching it at it's hoping explained by this mornings on the radio about electrical interference. So to make that happen. We go to guys in the shed in the garden. I don't know why we had to, but we did who going to pull the just the cable, but they couldn't leave this little garden shed to go because the ruin that he's watching TV and backs onto the Bank. So he might see them. He's bedroom does the same. So they had to sleep these two guys out to sleep in this. This is off like three months without a day off. Anyway, this shit level of work on these is just enormous for this one at the moment. No-one really remembers from the show is not part the drama. It's just a fun little bit. So yeah, it does happen. But the the other thing is which has sort of I've realized over the is of making them that we're all a lot more nervous about the fiction being rumbled than we need to. Because if you if you having dinner with Jen hip apps in a in a fashionable London restroom, and you spotted a camera behind a Kuttan, you wouldn't think. Okay. All right. This whole thing is fake. All these people are actors jars around I would be excited if you'd be. With somebody left a camera. Exactly. So many get stolen. We've had a couple of near misses like that. We will be. Like that about. And actually, I love that. I've never seen that expression. But I know exactly what I am definitely going to use that for those of you couldn't see that is this question the spending all the my career that. I can't believe I where what have I done my whole life. Now having this exactly now you have to to civilize couldn't be more perfect yet. Because I'm imagining imagine those two guys in the shed going. You know, I think I'm going to apply to that job that office job after all freezing their ass off in the shed in the middle of winter. And that was a tough. It was a tough job for everyone. It's eight months, and there's never enough budget because things so this chess everyone's living on God who writes all the dialogue for people to really understand this very much is the Truman show like there's a fake chaired the in the push. There's a fake charity gala security team for the gala. There's gathering team for the Gallo. There's only gifts there's all these people attending. There's our service. There's the assistant and there's formers or whatever and the hotel. Everybody's in on that. You can't have people wondering in that aren't part of it. Well, that's team is really helpful. And they have to be like secret productivity. Oh, yeah. It's on the other thing is like you putting somebody through something quite potentially quite duck. Even if the end result is a positive one less than in the push. It was quite doc. So you you've got to make sure that the robust enough, psychologically. So there's a whole vetting procedure that has to happen with those people as well. But again, they don't know that that newly that told them not being used applied to be bought the show, then they told sort of not gonna use you and then month by that point they've signed they wind. The thing that lets us use them, and then months later it'll happen so you have to vet them. So they have to go through sort of independent, psychological prec- as with with a psychologist to make sure the rebuffed enough because if they're going to witness a car crash, you call and have them having witnessed a traumatic question that we younger that sort of thing. So you go to psychiatrist to knows or psychologists who knows the plot. But it you've got to they have to do that. But also believe that everybody else is doing that. Because otherwise, it would tip to them that that being used for those totally out of things that you never even see in the show, but just the level of work. Yeah. That's to exist around it to make sure that it and all the people that like you've got to have that person's wife or girlfriend or boyfriend whatever involved to make sure that that she go to this event that we stayed. What did they change their mind at the most? I have a headache. I'm gonna bail on. Yeah. Why don't you go? Just bring the chance I much. Yeah. It reminds me of his apprised birthday party ahead in Germany and like nine hundred ninety eight and I wasn't going to go out that night. And I told my friend Peggy who'd set the whole thing up. I said I didn't really wanna come out tonight. What were you going to do if I was like, I got a headache? And she's like, yeah. We thought about that. Because you know, I'm Mr. I don't wanna go out tonight like back, then as far I don't wanna get on the bus. It's cold. She's like we goes all the way to Germany. You're this elaborate plan of her coming over and being like she had a whole big idea. She was going to like she said the idea that was in her back pocket was she was going to tell me that her friend and her wanted to like give me some sort of special birthday present if you will. And I was like that would have worked keeping close close to. And so is it was good as but I would have been really disappointed. If all I got was the surprise crate and was my saw there was a president of that. That was fake. I'm going back. You often show that people are being primed to pick the giraffe or two. Draw something how much of it. And then you say, well, look, here's how we primed them this display. This billboard had a giraffe on this kid's shirt had adrenalin it. And then when they were on the bus. There was the word draft was written on the window. Is that the real explanation or is that like, oh crap? We did this trick. And now, we've gotta show the audience why this person did this. It really varies. I mean, these this sort of stuff I used to do years ago and haven't done for a long time now, but in the same way that when Penn and teller would reveal the trick. They it wasn't just a witless reveal his how he did it you show the method when the method was more interesting actually than the trick. So what you go away with his autism. Shutter. It was done. It was really clever. It's probably more clever than the numb how you how you have to do that. Right. Because the the overall effect that you want to communicate is the joy of watching how it's done. So that was sort of the approach that I took as well with those things. So the a mixture of kind of real sort of tweaked. I'd say something he theatrically kind of tweaked because ultimately that's the bit that, you know, that's going to be the the refund pot of seeing how it was that was done. And also, you can anybody showed the stuff that's sort of visual because it's like watching it on TV. And some of the stuff is is you're trying to tell a story very neatly of how you did. It doesn't always lend itself to those that kind of clear visual narrative, so this. Yeah, it's sort of a mixed. But I kind of figured I had licensed to approach it with the same kind of sensitive theaters. As the trick itself. I think you have to write because if the answer is, oh, well, that's just a guy with my same building a mask. It's like oh. But if it's like, no this group of kids had the t shirt, and then there's the sign on the pub as they were driving. They saw three billboards and they've been here all week driving back and forth. So it's been repeated in there. It's just like the principles are sound enough. They would feel radically have worked. So that's a better explanation than will. Actually, they picked bunch. Of other things on this draft happened to be like the most convenient item for them to pick up at the time. It can be a mixture it can be mixture. I think I think it's. This part of the part of the fun of it for me with that early stuff was kind of, you know, some of it's real some bit isn't. And what was the background is hypnosis suggestion all that stuff? That's real in whatever real means. But that's real. It's not my people sort of playing along as what it is. And then and then the magic side the country countryside tricks decide what you're going for an effect, and you know, you'll going for the an illusion. So everything was sort of sitting somewhere in both of those worlds nothing. I think sort of what made it thumb. Yeah. Yeah. I like the idea of that is it perception without a where's that from that ship? He w is there something that we can do should we even think about this? Is there something that we can do to counteract that because it seems a little dangerous if we're so easily influenced by these things should we strive to maybe pay attention to that. Because not everybody's doing it. And then goes see now your life is really happy. Now, you value your family more because of this fake zombie apocalypse. There's going to be plenty of other people that go now, we're doing this horrible thing as a country because we were all convinced that it's the Jews or like now, we're doing this horrible thing to this. Because it makes us all money. Forget it. It's scary to think that we're so easily influenced and we don't understand it. Yeah. And we're not able to counteract it. Yeah. Are there is there kind of like a self defense for this? I think there's no obvious self defense. I think a lot of those things happen sort of environmentally those kind of influences and things that are going on that we don't realize a influencing. Have the power Nells within us, psychologically? We eat called Yong said that the greatest bird and the child has to bear is the lift life of its paradise. Right. So you worry about with my kid parents. They're going to have every welcome. I've got a lot of insecurities get again. No book. Yeah. That's just starting point. And then you you from an early age we develop these templates what relationship should be what love is what who we are in relation to this world. You know, we get essentially the message you'll you'll smoke them week in the world is big and strong. And and this is all kind of priming, isn't it? It's the same thing that happens environmentally. And then you you grow up and all of that feeds into. Relationships. Most. Obviously what you demand from your partner. What you project onto them the things that you try and hide from yourself. And those things always come back and bite you in some way, your things you be overcompensate full become addicted to, you know, this is it's happening all the time within us in the best. We can do is try and be more conscious of those things that are essentially unconscious because there's any they only own you, and they're unconscious and the moment you have sums of conscious appreciation, and then they lose some of that power. It's the best that we can do. We can only do that within ourselves that we can only work on cells and do the best we can. So I think there's a parallel there. I think it's just. And you can never entirely that union Paul of individuation as he called. It could never you never quite get to the end. When you've become the self that you'll really truly supposed to be outside of all these influences you it's only a journey. And I think that's the best we can hope for in that parallel example of what's going on environmentally. If we have all these influences around us, and we have hypnosis that is not fake, right? It's it's realistic. And we're creating compliance and people at what point do we decide that humans in our level of free will as maybe a lot more limited than like, do you believe in free will it's sort of more philosophical concept. I think, but I okay, I think in life what we big part of growing up is realizing that things in life are embitterment, and they are ambiguous and their complex, and they're messy, and they're active things. Like happiness, we reduced to nouns and the. When we do that. They suddenly become neat things that we can put into box and the not happiness is really, it's it's an activist a messy thing. And likewise, we love and hate things at the same time. We things are right and wrong and hot as it is to accept left. And right. A both doing a valid and important thing the ROY right wing world is protecting the group on the left wing world is protecting the individual. And we do actually need both of those things in some form or another so lives complex, and I'm big use. And I think where simple, yes. And knows and simple writing wrongs exists than the point is those both of those things need to this so miles the free will things I think both. I think I'm very happy to let both sit. I think in some ways. Of course, you can argue that everything is caused by the previous things that makes no sense to talk about free will. But then the trouble with that is that it's almost too easy. Okay. Then makes no sense to about free will. So then why bother? Doing anything trying to change anything about yourself or trying to gain any Mostra or anything least of all yourself. So I think that it also makes sense to talk about it as if it Israel, and I think they just two models from the sound sounding the same thing. I didn't get I just don't think it quite makes any sense to go. Yes own. And then they just don't think it's useful. I don't think it's a reflection of how we have how we live the dangerous to that approach. You just end up agreeing with everything. But I think I think it's. Reflects more the reality. Is there a way to use some of these some of the mental ISM for either personal growth, or I think self defense was one of the uses in in the highest. There was the guy gets caught shoplifting. Yes. This happened to me all around my house is not four foot. Hi, guys. Like, whatever. There was. Okay. That's a good example that this actually happened to me in real life. I wasn't shoplifting. But I was sure you weren't. Borrowing it just boring. I was walking from one hotel to another quite late at night. It was I was at a magic convention in Wales. I was wearing a three piece of Elvis, suits. Because why not this one on? And I I mean short of having punched me home in the throat tattooed across my face. I look clearly looking to be fooled. And. So this guy is you know, he's really drunk and his plenty yet looking for fight, and he is with his girlfriend at his all adrenalin of up here. And he starts shouting at me and says something like. What are you looking at? What's your problem with something? So I again, my my only toolkit is just the other person's experience. It's really all I can work with. So I said to him because in that situation, you can't respond with all I'm not looking anything because you're on the back foot and they've got power or. Yeah. I'm looking at you. What's your problem? Because either way you're gonna get hit. Probably right. You're you're thirty three not that dynamic. They've set up was you can't just not play that game right from the outset. So I said the wall outside my house isn't foot high. So by this phrase came from it was I said it on that time. So it makes sense. It's a state. It makes no sense within that context. So he now feels he's miss something. So now, he's on the back foot. So he's reaction to that is a bit of a pause as I want. And I said, oh, the walnuts hopping houses isn't full for high. When I lived in Spain the wolves they're quite high here that tiny in the nothing. So so he then I think there's a martial arts technique, which is an adrenaline dump a similar thing. I think what you before you strike. You have somebody you make somebody relax you pay sent you take them off guard. So this team all his adrenaline just kind of dumped I was hoping to just basically confuse him. Right. And then stick his feet to the floor. Do something more overtly hypnotic because that confusion state his various adjustable, but what actually happened was he just went off and started crying his girlfriend won't off. And he sat down by the side of the road. I sat down next to him and started asking me about what are going wrong that night. I think he's Guilford bottle. Somebody. Some fight and witty that I'm giving giving him advice. But it was it only happen because I've been talking about what to do in those sort of situations at Cuban things I'd been doing off to hypnosis shows. And I sort of the any reason why it was in my head and ready to go to to play it like that was because I'd sort of spoken about it, theoretically. But so the idea is have you can be a song lyric. It can be. It's just not playing that game that the other person is setting up and making them feel they've missed something. And then the dynamics completely changed immediately. If they're running with a knife, right? There's not much room for this thing. But you know, it's like if you want to train and you want to keep the seat next to you free. Don't put your bag there because everybody else does. So they know what you're doing. And they're gonna get annoyed the seat Nolan smarter. People say well, but no one's no one's going to want to sit here. Just unbuttoned. Yeah. I'm ready have a seat. So. Yeah. So that was that ended up being my sort of self defense technique was have a song lyric or something or I was talking to friend of mine about this thing. And he he's an artist needs to walk home from his studio late at night through rough bit of London and the rule ways these kind of gangs on one side of the road. So he'd always crossover away from them. And then of course, they'd always see that always is horrible uncomfortable intimidating thing. So we spoke about it. And then the next night he crossed over the road to them and said good evening as he will pass them because the left him alone because he just seemed strange here. He's crazy just it's just weird him. Good evening. So yeah. Who wants to see a magic trick? No, thanks, man. Get away from us. What do your parents think about your career? I'm imagining they're watching your show, and they're like the audience is doing an I and they're like, oh, you think that's a surprise. Our son of the religious Christian depends. He's. Yeah. Is he's a gay atheist. Now you want a surprise. Game play on claiming gay Theus trademark that they seem. They seem proud and happy. My neither parent went to university or anything like that. So I think when I came home and went I'm not going to be a actually had this conversation. I'm not going to be an international lawyer sums doing Lauren German. I'm going to be a magician. My mom said, oh, great sounds oddly. I thought she was so okay with it that I thought maybe I need to rethink that. Maybe that's a bit of a rash decision. What ball? But. Yeah. It'll Italy time persuasion comes from right? Like, oh, yeah. That's a good idea. Would you tell them when you said he was going to become a magician? I told him as a great idea. He's never going to do it. Yeah. Yeah. But I as it turned out the two. Yeah. That's that was there was a very relaxed approach. I wrote the Mineta in my first year university because I was with all these nor students that were feeling terribly won't going to pass their exams not for themselves their parents might think and I've never experienced that so written, but that's just saying thank you so much. I realize that. You just let me do what made me happy which I just presumed everybody did. And I see now that isn't that isn't the case. So he'll have kids at some point. Is that in the cards for you? Oh, I don't know. We've been talking about that. I've I've so I'm forty seven at night on famous very court between that Nietzsche's spoke about become who you are. So there's that what I think is a vertical sense of like, this is my life, and I need to be doing that. And everything else needs to clear out the way, and it's so quite selfish. But there's that. Edge, which doesn't sit well with taking on other responsibilities. I come to dogs, and that's kind of enough of a of an affront to that. And then the other edge, which is sort of leveling vertical. Eligible maybe that sense of self becoming who you are is already in the relationships that you have and these things that maybe that's who I am. I I'm of an age rhyme, which I think is partly what middle ages about that. When you kind of get a bit caught between that you re gas Eureka has to step down. That's the again union terms, you've slain the dragon in the first half of your life. And now you have to rescue the Princess you have to second off of life. I think is about serving something else finding the thing that's bigger than you and finding meaning in that. I think it's quite which kids naturally will sort of do. I just haven't quite made my piece fully with that idea. So I'm I at the moment. But, but it's it's a discussion. But I'm still so many things I just do and demo- my time that I don't know. And you've got all this whiskey out a lot of whiskey to drink as well, which isn't isn't compatible having children not necessarily now. Although the reason why the, hey, by the way, how did she don't drink that much otherwise they would be be that going just before Osman self office and alcohol, right? Yeah. Yeah. You might have to that would be a different. There's a whole lot of whiskey in here. People can't see it. But we'll maybe we'll do some b rolls Cowboys. Yeah. Well, thank you for using your platform as well to help people. Because a lot of TV is I mean to say, the least it doesn't help humanity and you see things like apocalypse. The push sacrifice. These people's lives are changed. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Well, that's those those are the w the things on Ammon. We'll be proud of you know, television is a fairly. Fatuous occupation. But if you occasionally. You know, when something happens in the real world that's helped that person is genuine is is a is a nice thing. I don't do. These shows so often that people are just being churned out some kind of conveyor belt of some sort of makeup do one of these things year. So it's the all these people have become friends. You know, I've stayed in touch with them. And and part of me wants to make sure that the the work of the show continues that they do actually the isn't just to show that they did. And they felt great forbidden and they went back to where they were. So that's important to me as well. So. Thank you. What are you designing now Broadway show? You said was a show that you've done before. Are you are you constantly designing new things or thinking of new allusions or new tricks that you can put in somewhere? Okay. So where am I now? So I'm hoping for Broadway show in the spring. So just waiting to hear on a theater for that. So it could suddenly happen might be out there in like April or not might be late in the air on owners to. I'm starting a new book. My head wrote a new book. So I read this book on happiness great, which he it'll be linked to the show. Thank you. That's available in America. Now, which is quite a new thing. And it's a lot of it's about stoicism and an approach to happen. This is very different from the sort of normal self help book approach something to get my head on a second book around those questions, if you know what it is to flourish. And and. Be human really. And and then I'm I guess they'll be another TV thing at the moment. There are three shows on Netflix. There's the push which is the guy getting pissed off the building story miracle, which is the state show where to the faith healing and sacrifices is the new one. So we worked on on on a fourth that is a real projects for this year. And then maybe even looking at sort of Europe, there's some other sort of countries that seem to they've had my TV shows for I've never gone over there and perform that'll be fun. So yeah, there's lots of some things to explore Broadway. Is that we I enjoy yourself so much. They'll be that hasn't happened yet. It seems so I've gone to some Broadway shows that are nowhere near as interesting as watching something that you do live. But I've also been really surprised at how long it's taken us to go. Hey, this Darren Brown guy, kind of knows what he's doing. 'cause I used to find these things on YouTube ten years ago, or whenever maybe not even YouTube, maybe some other video say ten years ago. I was. Was like this is amazing. How was this not more popular in sharing these things? And then I'd say have you heard of you've heard of Darren Brown, right and people go, oh, I don't know. And I'm like the guy in the net flicks. And then of course, now, I show people and they're like, whoa. This is incredible. I'm thinking like how long is it going to take for people to get it? Like what what is what is going on here? What we sort of held the shows back a bit from the state. So they sold them into around Europe. But we held back from the states because it meant that we could kind of do that properly at some point and in a more kind of concerted effort make it all happen part of a plan at some point. I have no I never have any ambition oil anything with these things tool. So I leave that to the grownups that sort of you know, plan my career that I just I just like to do what's enjoyable feels with want at the time. But, but that's why we actually held it back in the last few years, we've sort of gone, right, but some southern some stuff. So that's why it's slowly now being exciting. That's exciting because you're essentially a house. Sold name in the UK. Well, I don't know. But yeah. So no one knows me in the states. And gin and now a lot of other people as well. So I guess thank you very much. Love is a me. Thank you so much having me own. Thank you. Thanks, jen. So case in this episode did not disappoint zoom. Oh, absolutely. Not I've listened to it twice so far. But that's also my job. But it was still it was one of those pleasures that I get to go to work in the morning, and listen to you talk to Darren and hear about the behind the scenes of how he makes these amazing shows, and it's fascinating, it's utterly fascinating. He's just one of the most brilliant entertainers slash magicians alive. And it was just awesome to be in his house with all of the atmosphere of his house and his secret passageways and his two headed six legged animals and stuff like that in the house. It's just absolutely incredible. And his art is up all over the place. You gotta check out there and Brown stuff. We're going to link to a bunch of videos in the show notes if you have net, which I assume you do search Darren Brown D E R E N and watch the push watch sacrifice. You will just be blown away in. Also, he's an amazing author. I read his book happy I've read it twice so far. So I highly. Recommend checking that out that'll be linked in the show notes as well. It is a great treatise on stoicism, and what it takes to be happy. And you know, how to deal with the thought of death in a deep book. It's an extraordinarily deep book that I did not expect when I opened it up because title is happy on the front. So it was a really amazing book. And definitely check out his work on Instagram. I had no idea he was such an amazing photographer and painter as well. Yeah. The dudes good it pretty much everything. I assume he's you know, sucks at billiards ping pong or something like that. There's gotta be it's gotta be a balance somewhere. Right. I don't know. I don't know like not now, I'm not sure and he's a lovely lovely guy. I really enjoyed meeting him. He's just an amazing amazing person. And I'm looking forward to seeing everything that he does in the future and keeping in touch with them for a long time. And I'm very excited for his Broadway show coming up, we'll let you guys know about that maybe going to bring a group to New York once that opens up 'cause I just can't wait to see what that's all about as well. And if you want to know how I managed to book great people like Darren and create a network with people like down in it well systems, that's how you do at tiny habits a little bit seats. Jay. And I'm teaching you how to do this for free the level. One course is over at Jordan. Harbinger dot com slash level. One don't kick the can down the road don't lie to yourself and tell yourself you're going to do it later. You're not dig the well before you're thirsty. Jordan, harbinger dot com slash level one. Speaking of building relationships, tell me your number one takeaway here from Darren Brown. I'm at Jordan harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. This show is produced in association with podcast one. In this episode was co produced by Jason taking a bullet Filipo and Jen harbinger show notes by Robert Fogerty worksheets by Kayla bacon. And I'm your host Jordan, harbinger, the fee for the show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful with should be in every single episode, especially this one so please share the show with those you love, and even those you don't lots more coming up in two thousand nineteen. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show. So you can. Live. What you listen and we'll see next time. A lot of people ask me which podcasts I listen to and or recommend one that I listened to an often recommend it's called the one you feed and Eric Zimmer the host of the one you feed is here with me today. You recently did an episode about meditation called the mind as your teacher with Ralf de LA Rosa. You wanna tell us a little bit about that one? Yeah. He wrote a book called the monkey is the messenger. And most of us have heard of this idea that like this mind, that's always running is called kind of a monkey mind, and he's sort of talking about why that monkey is actually our teacher that monkey mind, and that that mind that just runs and runs and runs it drives us towards meditation. And then it also drives us away from meditation because we sit down to do it. And it doesn't work our mind just runs we think, oh, my mind's got to be quiet to meditate. But I found it so fascinating. Because he saying, you know, for those of us that meditation doesn't come easy to it might be even more important for us to do it than people. Who sit down and who's mind quiets, very quickly and easily greats. And if people want to find that they'll be a link to the show notes. And of course, you can always search for the one you feed it's the two headed wolf icon in any podcast app.
153: Adam Grant | How to Know the Real You Better
"Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan harbinger. As always I'm here with my producer, Jason Filipo, Adam grant, and I go back a long way, he's an organizational psychologist who studies how to make work not suck as he puts. It we grew up in the same area of Michigan and Adam has consistently broken the mold by outworking out producing an outshining. Almost everyone in our age group, which I think is great. He just he's written a bunch of books. He's like one of these all star professors, really great thinker of our time. And it's kinda cool that he was just like this youngest tenured professor ever at work business school kind of big deal. He was tenured at twenty eight instead of you know, like forty something that is incredible. And whenever I talked to Adam. I'm always impressed by his ability to take a freakonomics style. Look at the workplace and to do. So in a way that us gen-x slash millennial types can actually pay attention to and wrap our heads around today on the show why we probably don't know ourselves as well as we think we do. In fact, it's not just an absence. Of knowledge about ourselves. But there's a near certainty that we actually believe the things about ourselves that are patently false. Whether it's trying to land a job where Impresa date, we spend a staggering amount of time making claims about ourselves, and it makes sense, right? You're the only person on earth who has direct knowledge of every thought feeling an experience that you've ever had. So who could possibly know you better than you? Sometimes though that direct knowledge is what causes the problem. We're talking about here in the first place think of it like owning a car just because you've driven it for years doesn't mean you can pinpoint why and when the engine broke down, and that's kind of what we're gonna delve into here with Adam grant, we've got some drills and exercises for you to get better self awareness and help others do the same which I think is just a really interesting and a little bit of a scary way to do that. So I really enjoyed this episode the time flew by and if you want to know how I managed to keep people like Adam grant on speed dial and have this great network. It's all about systems. It's all about tiny habits actually just taught. Of this to some intelligence agencies, some espionage type, so even if you're already really good at networking, which a lot of you have been saying, you are there's going to be some stuff in here, unless you are already a clandestine service mix type, which you're not so check out our level. One course it's free over at Jordan. Harbinger dot com slash level one and get a nice taste of that. It's the stuff. I wish I had for the last fifteen years. All right. Here's Adam grant, shall we dive into this. I read the article the podcast is really interesting, and it so you only did like a handful of those is that kind of the the deal with that the basic thought was that I was going to think about each podcast episode is a mini book. And so we decided to season would just be it episodes and then to bonus. And so a rookie season two now and the. Part of a chance for me to you know, to really turn upside down the way my own work life works because I physically spent the last six years since I think you and I first connected getting invited into organizations to tell them mostly things. I already know. And I go to all these interesting places. I don't get to learn that much because they wanna they wanna hear like the greatest hits. And so the podcast was kind of a flip of that to say. All right. What if I invite myself in two places that are reinventing work and making it suck a little bit less and try to figure out what we can learn from them. So that was the that was the hook. And it's been super fun. I like the idea that you get to go to these places and really dive. In fact, I thought it was pretty interesting that you've got to sit in the writer's room on the daily show. I'm imagining a bunch of really funny quirky people somewhere like kinda history, some are really all and some look square, but those are like the real weird ones. And then Trevor Noah are sitting there, and they're like all right, everybody be really. Funny. What are your ideas and go and everyone's just ready with some hilarity? I mean, what's what's the reality of sitting in a room like that? Or is it not even a room anymore? These days that, you know, Jordan. That's not that far from from what I saw when I walked in. So it was a little surreal because I've I've watched the show since I think we were in college, right? Yeah. Where we and I remember going news. I'm not doing that. My friend was like trust me. You'll want to see this guy. Talk about funnies make fun of the news. And I thought well how disrespectful as that? And then dot dot dot my favorite show. Right. Exactly. I think I had a very similar experience. And I'd I'd watch Trevor stand up and thought he was hysterical and says I was excited to to get a taste of his show, and then or his version of the show. And so I reached out and said, look we wanna do a show about the making of your show. It's like a a Seinfeld Coughlin coffee table book about Covington. Right, right. Very. And they were surprising. Like, I don't know. I don't know. Exactly why. But they were surprisingly receptive. And they said, hey, you know, you're you're with Ted. You wanna do a work life episode? Shirley, come on in. And so I I literally just arrived at the writer's room one day, and it is tiny. It's like it's an undersized living room, essentially with a few couches their bagel sitting everywhere, and it is full of probably thirty mostly hipster looking people many of whom are in their twenties and thirties. It looks like a total melting pot covering every possible culture and hairstyle. Yeah. Would I walk in? They don't even notice that. I'm there. They're just riffing on on the the previous day's news. And every two or three minutes somebody'll hit play on a clip. And then it's like an immediate competition to see who can make the funniest one liner on on that particular clip. And then when they feel like they've run out of seeing they cycle through the next one, and and Trevor walks in and nobody even notices they just continue with the routine until he he finally calls the meeting to order, but it was it was kind of like watching. It was almost like watching a basketball team in warm ups where where they don't realize anyone's in the audience is pretty fun to see it in action. That's got to be a pretty fun. But also pretty stressful job because if you have an off day, and you're just not being funny. And you're sitting there all your colleagues and Trevor Noah are like expectantly looking at you deadpan with eyebrows raised in there. Like impressed me. And you're just like, yeah. Not feeling today. I had to go to the vet my stomach hurts a little and they're just like all right? You said that yesterday. So when are you going to be funny and earn money that we're pay? Saying you, and you're just like I'm getting fired from this job immediately. I was a little terrified because you know, I think probably took six or seven minutes from from the time. I walked in for somebody to make a really bad joke that no one laughed at at all just completely bombed. And I'm like, oh, no that person's life is over. Right. Trevor Trevor thinks they're an idiot. You don't get that much time to pitch in front of, you know, the top guy necessarily, and they actually just jumped on it and started making fun of it and treat is an opportunity to make more jokes. And I felt like it it actually it made it easier for the person who bombed to laugh at themselves because they were kind of laughing together knowing that they've all bombed at some point house. Like, you know, what we we need? We need to do that more. Yeah. Good point. How glad though were you at that point that that wasn't you? Right. Like, I'm glad I don't have this job that guy screwed. Oh. I think I mean, we've we've all had that moment moment right of kind of even just an a meeting pitching joke and having it fall flat as like, okay? That that's painful enough. But at least I can say that's not my job. I'm not supposed to be funny. That would have been a bonus if anybody left here, this is the definition of what they're supposed to be good at how can they just fall flat on their faces? But they seem to do it almost every hour. It's got to be a tough gig, and it sort of segues nicely into what we're going to discuss today because in order to get a job writing jokes writing comedy, by the way, I just want everyone to know, my dream is to have a team of people writing funny things for me to say, and then I get to say them on the show and everyone thinks I'm the funny one that that is a great place to be in your career. You really have to think at some point to be a comedy writer to be in that room to be an any position at all. Like that that you're funny. You have to think that you're funny. But people who think that they're funny generally are the people that are not funny at all. So you have to you have to have this balance. Right. Where you're like, I know that I'm kinda funny. But I'm not so funny that I'd go around telling people this, and yet here's my resume telling you how good I'm going to be in that writer's room. Right. How do you manage to slide in there? It's a hell of a paradox. I think that most of the people I met at the daily show they just been told over and over again that they were funny by other people or they just they noticed that when they made a joke. More people laugh when other people make jokes, and you know, at some point they realize all right? I'm pretty good at this. But once once they did that they started surrounding themselves with funnier people and a lot of them sort of moved in a slightly more professional direction. So they. Do stand up on the weekend. Or, you know, they'd start submitting applications to you know, to to write a column for newspaper, and as they do that they automatically catapult themselves into a world where people have much much higher standards and clear taste and so really quickly. It's like, okay. I was I was funny in my high school class, but not funny compared to Jerry Seinfeld or Allie Wong. So I got a lot of work to do. And I think that that feedback steam to help a lot of them calibrate. It it is it is funny though. Because I I remember in high school, actually, I had a friend who told me that I had no sense of humor. And you know, like like only someone who's a future psychologists could do. I was like, well, why explain it to me like what what's your logic? Like, what's your evidence back it up? And she said, well, you don't laugh at all my jokes. I'm like, I'm Uber. I'm the problem. Hush errol. Yeah. Exactly. So I do think that people have a really hard time judging how others are are supposed to respond to their humor. And to your point. I think that that goes to a larger question about has self-aware. Are we really, and that's what we're going to get that was a brilliant. We just landed that glide gliding that plane right down on the on the runway that was great. I learned a lot from you over the years, and I should be taking notes on this as well. I think that that was that was smooth. Usually we have to slam that transition in their little bit. But that was that was probably smooth is against your work in the area of self-awareness is a little bit scary. And that's the topic for today. Because I think it does come down to the fact that look I wanna believe I really wanna believe that. I not only know myself better than anyone else. But the knowledge I have about myself is actually the most important information about myself that exists, and I know that's that's kind of confusing, but it's sort of a two prong thing here for if you're listening, and you're confused what I'm saying is people think they know themselves really, well, and that is only true in certain areas, except the problem is those areas in which, you know, yourself not that big of a deal for the rest of us like not really good a make or break your career etcetera. Am I close? Yeah. Actually, I I think you nailed it. So jordan. I do have some good news for you right there. There are some things, you know, about yourself that other people don't know, and that are probably useful to know. So if you take an internal state like anxiety, for example, you are away better judge of your own anxiety levels in how neurotic you are than other people because nobody knows what's going on inside your head, and you might be really neurotic on the inside. But very good at putting on sort of a cool front on the outside or the opposite. You might come across as really anxious, but you're actually pretty chill internally. And so I think to to really understand any emotions that you're experiencing any particular patterns of of thinking or feeling you are the best gauge on that the problem is most of your success in life depends on how other people perceive you and sometimes we are atrocious at gauging that. Yeah, that seems like it could be a big problem. I mean, it's kind of a waste of time for me to know. All this stuff about myself and. Then have it all be largely irrelevant to how I work. How I relate to other people. It seems a little bit. Unfair is not a great word for it. Because that's that's how things are. I mean, it's just a statement of facts, but it doesn't really seem to be a pattern that we can easily break and not only that if we're supposed to develop self awareness. And we know a lot of workplaces grade you based on self-awareness, which is probably a good thing. It sounds like we should be focusing more on this. And yet all of these personality tests, some things that we take Myers Briggs. It's like, hey, what about your really just evaluating yourself? And then you get this acronym, or I guess at the end, and it's supposed to define you. And yet it's all based on my own perception of my own data about myself. It seems like wow, talk about a recipe for disaster. Yeah. It I think it's scary. And I guess a few years ago, I publicly broke up with the Myers, Briggs. Because I was so appalled. At the the ratings are done. And the lack of updating of science that went into that which whole nother conversation. But I think the some of this. We know immediately, right. You'd never judge somebody's intelligence by asking them. How smart they are like you'd actually watch them use their intelligence knowing that they're probably going to be pretty motivated to think that they're bright. And that, you know, watching themselves problems or answer trivia questions or try to figure out a complex complex task would be a better way to go. But I think we we overlook the fact that this is true across a whole range of domains. If you think about job performance, for example, the best personality predictor of performance in most jobs in the US and actually in most industrialized countries is conscientiousness are you disciplined hard-working organized, dependable or you more spontaneous carefree, and it's not it's not hard to figure out that you know, conscientious people tend to set higher goals, they tend to be more persistent in. In a cheating. Those goals, they they work harder. They also work smarter. Because when something doesn't work they they don't give up they look for new ways of solving problems. And so you people are aware of that. And they're pretty motivated to see themselves as conscientious than the problem is they have access to everything they've ever done and so short, and if you want to see yourself as really conscientious, it's pretty easy for you to search your memory for nine situations where you are super organized and top non top stuff. And what you don't have is the comparison of your best nine against everybody else's best nine, and so you can overestimate how much you really have your your act together. That's a good point. I never I hadn't even thought about the idea that someone could say, well, how nice are you? And I skip over all of the asshole array of the last twenty nine days, and I I go to the head of bed twenty nine minutes. Right. Then I go to the thirtieth day. And I'm like, well, I did pick up that dollar that that lady dropped and say, hey, you dropped this. And she was like, thanks. So I'm a pretty good person. Right. And that's the memory that I'm going to latch onto because it's desirable. And because nobody wants to be like. Yeah. Well, there's all these times where I've done really horrible things. And that's what I want other people to know about me. And that's what I want to believe about myself. We're just gonna filter that. But the problem, I would imagine this is unconscious, right? This is happening to us in a way that that is riddled with cognitive bias constantly, and yeah, I mean, it's it's it's actually pretty fun to watch people. Do it right. Because it's almost like they've they've they've told their life story just by writing their own Wikipedia page, and there's no editor kind of going through to figure out. Okay. Well, wait a minute. What else have you done? And is that really true? I think that one of the places this plays out is there's a classic study psychology of married couples where they're put in separate rooms. And they're asked to estimate of the total work that goes into their relationship. How much they personally responsible for? And so each each person gives a percentage and three out of four couples add up to over one hundred percent. So somebody's lying, and it turns out that some of that is ego. Right. We we all wanna think that we're we're doing most of the work in our in our relationships, but more of it is just information discrepancy, right? You, you know, every act that you've ever done to contribute to your relationship. Right. You were there when you cook dinner, and when you plan to vacation, and when you walk the dog, and by definition, you weren't there when your partner did all those things, and so on average, I think people are able to come up with eleven of their own contributions and only eight of their partners. So I think one of the ways we can become more self aware is actually learn more about what other people are up to. On the same dimensions that we're trying to judge ourselves. So that's that's interesting. It's not just a matter a simple matter of cognitive bias. Right. It's a information a symmetry and exactly that makes a lot more sense because I'm thinking to my own relationship. And there's no way I would put anything over us. I would never be like, I'm doing at least half the work. I I know damn well, my wife is doing a lot more work in the relationship. And we've also talked about this one day. This is not the same thing. But the other day, she asked me something like what percentage of the housework? Do you think you do? And I was like like five percent. And she goes, oh, I'm so glad to hear you say that. And I said, yeah, why. And she's like, well, you know, she's talking to her friends and all these husbands out there, and you don't have to admit guilt atom. But all these husbands out there are like, yeah. I do like forty to sixty percent some days, and it's like not even close. Yeah. Not even close. And I would imagine this gets mirrored in how much work goes into the relationship because we're thinking like, well, you know, I come home and I say Hello to her. And I buy stuff on the way back from the office. And it's like, yeah. That's not even close to what your wife did all day us weren't around. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's that's that's exactly the trap that a lot of people run into you. And it's I mean, I think it's a fundamental challenge. We have anytime we try to gauge generosity or contribution to others and. Jordan the question. Your wife asked is sort of you can't win either. You're gonna get in trouble for overestimating it or you got a lot of work to do now. Well, I kind of I kind of went this way, by the way, if anybody's worried about this walking into that trap. Yeah. What happened was I said about five percent. And I said, but I hope you don't feel like I'm not contributing because what I'm doing is working on the business earning revenue so that we can pay for things etcetera. That's where I look at my contribution. Let me know if I need to do more. She's like, no, I'd rather you just don't try to like get in the middle of all these other things that I'm doing, you know, because it is the problem with this. My dad tried to do housework like once or twice when I was a kid, and my mom was like just stop. You're just making everything worse. Like, I've I've been in that position. It's so after after reading a lot of this research on on how out of balance things are between, husbands, and wives. I I came home. And I told my wife, I was feeling really guilty that I wasn't doing enough at home. And she's like first of all like do not. The kitchen like you. You can't even make spaghetti without it being really crunchy. And I'm freighter going to set the place on fire. But Secondly, I would love more help. And I we then had this conversation. It sounds like similar to yours about. Okay. What are the things that that I could actually be stepping up in contributing in that you don't enjoy doing or you feel like I'm good at and did you come up with a balance or where she like just stay away from everything and go back to your office, though. I got I got permanent garbage duty. So that was not landed on my plate, and it's not bad. I've actually found I like I like taking out the garbage because it's the perfect time to listen to podcasts. It's also oddly satisfying for me, it really is. It's like I'm getting rid of all the stuff where I'm not alone. Yeah. Then weird. That's so weird. I so what do you find satisfying about it? You know, what it is? It's like you open up this bedroom garbage can that you've kind of been over stuffing for two weeks. 'cause you're like, I gotta take this out. But it's four o'clock in the morning, and you just wanted to blow your nose. You're not doing it then. And then, you know, some are like take this thing out or or your take out like all this heavy sort of food garbage. And there's this area where now where you would have normally had to push down on a garbage can full of stuff. It's empty you can just drop it in leisurely. There's I don't know. I must have some sort of some sort of there's a deeper complex here. Probably. But I find it's like cleaning things up and making them orderly except for you're actually getting rid of something that has object. Wli not supposed to be in the house anymore as opposed to making things perpendicular and parallel on a desk that you're gonna mess up in five minutes. Yeah. You know? It's it's funny. Because as a who you say that I think that I wonder I wonder how much of this is unique to the fact that neither neither you you. Definitely. And I also don't we don't have a job where we create much. That's tangible. Right, right. Okay. You're you're gonna put out some ideas or some conversations, and they're never really done, and you don't ever get to to kind of ship them off and feel like I created something today. And so I feel like when I take out the garbage like I've actually accomplished something that I can see in front of me, right? Which is which is very satisfying in a Marie condo sort of way. It's also a little sad that that's like the one tangible thing where we sort of brush our hands off go wash with their Myers cleaned a hand soap that literally everyone in America seems to have now and then dry our hands. And we're like, oh, that's a job. Well done like, I'm imagining people who do. Due woodworking or are working on a car in a garage. They wipe the grease off their hand in. They're like, yeah. That's a beauty. I never will have that experience with garbage, especially. No, no. That's that's true. Although I do occasionally stack the cardboard boxes in a pattern also satisfying. Yeah. Now, we just have some sort of weird complex that. We we grew up in the same area for those of you listening. We grew up basically in the same town. There's probably some weird stuff in the water. We aren't that far from Flint now that I think about it. It's true. And not only that but you were college remits with one of my good high school friends. That's right. That's right. I feel like surge might have put something in your water. It's very possible. Yes. Some sort of Russian spice that. Check after colonizing our brains. Yeah. Exactly. You're listening to the Jordan harbinger show with our guest Adam grant, we'll be right back after this. This episode is sponsored in part by ZipRecruiter. You know, it's not smart job boards that send you candidates that aren't qualified for the role you actually posted job boards. It send you a mile high stack of resumes to sort through. There's a lot about this. That will drive you crazy. But you know, it is smart going to ZipRecruiter dot com slash Jordan to hire the right person. Unlike other job sites, ZipRecruiter will find qualified candidates for you. It's got matching technology. It'll scan thousands of resumes identify people with, you know, actual skills education. Experience the things that you might want somebody that you're hiring, and it will actively invite them to apply to your job. 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You just heard visit Jordan, harbinger dot com slash deals. If you like some tips on how to subscribe to the show, just go to Jordan, harbinger dot com slash subscribe. Now back to our show with Adam grant. All right. So back to self-awareness in which you just everyone just got a glimpse of are kind of over overly self-aware selves here. Just a minute ago. You mentioned in some of your work that and there's a great article on this in the Atlantic. That will Lincoln the shuts people's co workers, colleagues, etc. Are better than they are at recognizing. How their personality will affect their job performance. In other words, people we work with are much better at evaluating us than we could possibly be. This sounds a little terrifying. Because I feel vulnerable knowing that. Well, I I don't think it says. Well, as as it sounds because here, your coworkers. Do get to see your you do your job every day. And so, you know, if you think about it for a minute, Jordan, if I were to give you a conscientiousness scale, and, you know, have you fill out a bunch of items about, you know, do do you always finish the things you start? Are you a reliable person? Do you? Do you feel like you? You are you're good at keeping yourself organized on schedule. I can take your ratings and then ask your co workers to fill the same scale out about you. And then your coworkers ratings might be twice as powerful as yours in predicting your performance, and if I do that in reverse, and I have your coworkers fill that out the ratings you give yourself at nothing. And so whatever, you know, about yourself at your co workers don't is either wrong or sort of irrelevant to your performance. Wow. That's that's bizarre. So they can see things that we either can't see probably a little bit of what we won't see or refused to see. And all the information that we know about ourselves doesn't really affect her job. So okay. That means that in some way are blind spots is humans have to be somewhat predictable. And this is you know, your area of research. Right. You've got to have seen this. If if we really can't evaluate these things about ourselves, and our colleagues and co workers can there must be those must be the same areas or similar areas for pretty much. Everyone is at the case. Yeah, it seems to be so the the areas that we we have the biggest blind spots in are the areas that are evaluative wherever you really care about looking good or we know the difference between positive and negative like generosity or something like that which would trigger acidy intelligence creativity. Anything that's desirable or virtuous. And then also that are highly observable, so. So much more something like assertiveness, which everyone can witness as opposed to more of the internal anxiety that we talked about earlier. Okay. All right. And why is this important? The fact that other people can see us more clearly than weekend. What what what should we take away from that? Well, I think I think you captured it really nicely that there are things that we can't see because we're stuck inside our own heads. And then, you know, it's kind of like, well, if you go back to the if you go back to Aristotle's era, astronomers being totally convinced that the sun revolved around the earth. You would really easily be able to see that if you weren't on the planet earth because he would see earthmoving, right? But the the fact that you're on it makes it really hard. And I think that that's the same thing is true about the mind. The the the very fact that you live inside your own head makes it really hard to see what other people can from outside. And then the other part, you know, that's the that's the observable part. Then the evaluative part is they're just things that you do not wanna see about yourself that are uncomfortable to admit that are blows to your ego. And so what one of the things I I had a lot of fun doing in the first season of work. Life was going into workplaces that tried to fix that. And say, hey, you know, what we're not gonna let you keep those blind spots. We're going to hold up a mirror and let you see yourself as other people. See you in the hopes that that will help you get better at your job or maybe turn you into a less. Terrible person. Yikes. That's got to be tough. Because of course, it's really easy for me to look at what I would evaluate myself. Right. I'm looking in my own head. And I'm like, okay what? But then the question is what am I ready to admit to other people because I'm not just going to spill everything that I find in there. Right. Even if I get rid of my bias and see things even remotely clearly which you have sort of shown that we can't even if I do find something I'm not going to be like, hey, everybody. Guess what I found out? I'm really not that emotionally stable go figure. Right. That's not. I'm not doing that. Well, I actually think you might. But most people what maybe I would. Yeah. For purposes of this show only for science. No, I think you know, there's. I never I've never known what to do with this. But there's there's a psychologist Bill Swann who has argued for decades that against this backdrop of us thinking that we all just want to see ourselves, positively bills. Bill said, yeah. But we also have this motive to be seen accurately. We we don't just go around trying to impress other people. We also try to express ourselves, and we kind of want to align. The ways that we really are with how other people see us. So that we're not constantly disappointing them. And so so that we feel like we're understood, and I I would guess Jordan from you know, from the times we chatted over the years that you probably score a pretty high on his self verification scale where you are willing to trade off a little bit of being seen positively for being seen accurately. Yeah. I've in this might not be the exact same thing. But I am very much, okay. With having people trust me more than they like me in certain business situations, especially and that's been cultivated over over time, though, you know, of course, I spent most of my young life really trying to get people to to like me more at as every kid does. And then it just got kind of horrible. As an adult is a is not a great way to exist and doesn't. Work with dating it doesn't work with friendships. It doesn't work at in the workplace, and then I realized starting my own business. It's actually more important for people to be like, look, I know that Jordan's gonna do what he says he's going to do I'm going to get what I paid for etc. Versus having people be like know. He's just a really nice person. I like being around him there. It's great to have both. But if I had to choose one, I think trust is probably a little better because I, you know, and this is just a theory. This is something that I've thought about a little bit here. It's better to do business with people that you trust. I'd rather do business with people that I trust but don't necessarily like than people that I like but don't necessarily trust. I think that's so critical and unusual. It's it's actually it's a theme that jumped out when I did an episode with a crew of NASA, astronauts who who had to trust people. They didn't like. Oh, yeah. So imagine that you are you're coming out of the US navy, and you've gotten picked to live your lifelong dream and fly into space, and you were told that when you're crewmates is going to be a Russian Cosma cosmonaut who when you were in the navy was your enemy, and you are going to fight the Cold War against him. And now, you gotta fly with the guy, and he's not particularly friendly, and he's kinda nasty about, you know, whether you're any good at your job and clearly thinks that he's superior, and you probably don't enjoy interacting with that guy very much. But you're life depends on being able to trust them. And know that he's competent and also that he believes your competent. And I think it's really hard for people to get past that right to say, hey, I wanna I wanna put my life in the hands of of somebody that I don't even enjoy interacting with. And I thought it would that something that more people ought to learn how to do. So how did you? How did you get to that point who good question? I think probably it comes down to the one thing that's coming readily to mind here is little decisions. So if I have the ability to say to somebody, hey, you know, the reason that you're not getting this speaking slot. For example, is because you're actually not as dynamic of speaker as the other people that got shows around you. I could have I could say that. Right. And I probably would. But the other thing I could do is go, but I really want Jim delight me. And so I'm not going to tell him that he's not as dynamic of a speaker. And that he should improve that I'm going to say, you know, that whole event is kind of just a popularity contest. It's kind of just a boys club. You're never gonna get that. I I should've told you before. But I thought maybe they change their ways. But they haven't same old crap. You're great don't let them get you down. You know, and that would have made that person feel better. And be like Jordan's got my back. He's on my side. I like him. But I think I was able to achieve that by saying, look, you're not as dynamic of a speaker. You should Email this guy and take some lessons, and it will really go far. You're not really what they're looking for right now at this type of event, but don't feel bad. You just don't have enough reps under your belt, it doesn't necessarily make that person. Like me. It doesn't have to make them dislike me, but they sure like me less than if I stroke their ego, and or protected their ego. It's just that I was able to give them feedback that they could use instead. And so I have to make those decisions in real time. As those situations arrive, kind of just take note of when I'm I have the ability to give somebody real feedback, for example, or blow sunshine up their skirt. It's a lot easier for me to just to now make. That decision knowing that it's the long game that matters for me. And that that is exactly what Ray Delio tries to Bridgewater. In saying, look, you've got to be willing to cause people a little emotional pain in order to help them improve. And the reality is that the most of us are afraid to do that. We don't want to hurt people's feelings. Even if in the long run it's going to help them. And I think that's a that's a disservice to other people, especially when you're dealing with things like financial markets, or well any business actually, it seems like a great idea. I would imagine in that workplace though, there's a lot of you really have to get down to people's motivations. Because when I hear about what happens at Bridgewater, which is everybody gives each other feedback. That's pretty brutal. And you could even give it to Ray. I guess if you feel the need to do that a home is there's gotta be a little bit of like, well, you know, I got feedback from Adam. But then I also think that Adams secretly mad at me for this other thing, so I'm going to discount that feedback or or thanks for the feedback atom. And then you're thinking like I'm going to give you feedback now. And then when you get that, you're like is Jordan just. At at me for the feedback. I gave him before like, how do you get rid of the idea that maybe they're motivated by something else other than just giving you realistic feedback? Maybe they're mad at you for your feedback. How do they mitigate that? Right. How do they control for that? So I I've spent a couple of years studying Bridgewater and doing some work with them. And actually, I was I was on a call yesterday where I was I was quoting a study and -rageous interrupted and said bullshit. Wow. Like at first. I was like, whoa. That's harsh. Like, I I I'm a social scientist. I, you know, I I have pretty high standards for what counts as rigorous research. I'm pretty sure this study is not bullshit. And then and then the next thought I had was all right. I finally reached a point where he's brutally honest with me. And isn't pulling any punches? That's that's great. That's that's what I need in my life, especially from somebody who's who's gone to the extreme on a scale like giving and receiving feedback. So he he has a bunch of systems in place that have really been designed to solve the problem, you're describing so I think in a lot of workplaces. You're right that you know, I I might give you negative feedback. Because I mad at how you for rating meeting negatively, or, you know, I'm I'm trying to get ahead in some way. And you're a threat to that. At bridgewater. One of the things they do is. You get rated on about seventy seven different dimensions of performance in real time. So you're in a meeting right now. And I could be rating you on, you know, whether you're demonstrating higher level thinking or getting stuck in the weeds. I could be rating you on whether you're standing for for truth and fighting for right as opposed to being a little bit political. And you then raped me on being, you know, being being distracted when I'm busy writing you. But the the aggregate all these ratings that are done in real time. And then what you're given is a believability score, which is a score in each domain for how accurate your feedback has been in the past because we have everybody doing the ratings. And so with that means is I might be given a high believability score on feedback about your personality, but a loaf believability score on my predictions about markets. And so then you would know whether in general, you should trust my feedback in that domain, and there's a. A very strong disincentive for me to then game a few back system because I'm gonna kill my believability score. If I if I if I give you feedback that I think is not accurate in a domain where I've proven accurate. Oh, wow. So we want to build up our credibility, which is great. Because of course, I think we want it we touched on this earlier. We wanna convince everyone including ourselves that were smart, creative and intelligent. And if we're just sort of trying to game the system in that way, or when we give other people feedback than we lose on this other metric, which is actually arguably more important having discussed the whole trust versus like ability thing in the first place. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's right. And I think one of the things that that I was surprised to see happen. When I when I watched this play at Bridgewater is I kind of expected that people would always be second guessing the motives, right and trying to say, okay. When somebody tells me, I had one of the one of the craziest things that I saw happen. There was was a guy named Karen walked into meeting, and it the a slide came up ranking managers at Bridgewater, and he was ranked dead last in a room of several hundred managers dang at like oh God. He didn't even get stabbed in the back. You just got punched in the face. Burn of all his colleagues. And they're the ones punching them. And would I would I would feel inclined to do in that situation. Is you start thinking about all the reasons why people might be biased against me, and that didn't even cross his mind because they have all bought into a system and opted in where they agree that they're gonna listen to critical feedback because they want to help each other get better. And so you build up this experience over time of knowing that if people rate you negatively, even though we all tend to feel uncomfortable about doing that. Then, you know, odds are they're probably trying to to give you accurate feedback and hold up that mirror and help you get better that is a brilliant way to try to mitigate cognitive bias. Because that would be my first thought everyone's biased against me. Or maybe I'm biased against I've got some other bias. And by the way, you would know this is there a bias whereby. I think I'm less biased because I think I have that bias. Yeah. This is this is Emily Pronin work on what's called the bias blind spot, which I've always thought of is the the I'm not biased bias. Yeah. So people actually think that they are more objective than than other people are, which of course, is ridiculous. Yeah. That makes sense and the more objective. I think I think a lot of people who don't realize they're vulnerable to bias the more vulnerable. They might actually be because since we all have that the fact that they don't see that. Or we don't see that means that maybe it affects us even more strongly than any than other people. Yeah. I mean, it's it's terrible. Actually because the more convinced you are that your objective, the less work you do to try to to catch and check your own biases. And so the more unbiased, you think you are the more bias that makes you know, my gosh, that's such a mess. Watch out. Yeah. So in what areas do we need to have other people hold a mirror up for us? And then how do we do that? Who do we choose to do this? Because if if I ask my wife, hey, I need a realistic assessment of myself. She's still not gonna do that. She has to first of all she has to rationalize the fact that she married me in the first place. Right. She's not going to be like, here's all the stuff. That's wrong with you without running into a cognitive dissonance of her own. She's like, wait. I'm married you, Dan. What was I doing right? Yeah. Although, you know, what there's there's some marine homes work showing that that high expectations of your partner can become self offending prophecies. And that you know, if your wife has an ideal of you of who you are that you become more motivated to try to become that person. And so maybe maybe her best option is to say, hey, Jordan like on your best day. Here's who I think you are. And here all the times, you fall in Georgia that let's close the gap. Yeah. Which maybe allows her to maintain her positive you of you. But also motivate you to to make some improvements. But I think you're right. I didn't get at a basic level. It's often it's often hard for people to know what to give you feedback on. And then you have to gauge okay? How honest are they being and where they relevant. I think the the place to start though is with specific skills. So you know, other people tend to be pretty good if they're knowledgeable in domain, and and you're you're new to it or you've gotten inconsistent feedback in it. They tend to be pretty good at giving you feedback, especially if you aggregate a bunch of people to give feedback and so there's there's actually an exercise that I tried out after after seeing it in action at at Bain the management consulting firm. So they they have a version of a an owner's manual or user manual like, you know, when you get a new car, it comes with a manual to tell you how to operate it. Yeah. I've never even cracked that thing in any kind of ever had in my whole life. So you're. So you're less. You're clearly less clueless than I am then because I've I've been I've actually not I think I'd probably read parts of everyone because I couldn't figure out how to work pretty much every car o. I. Yeah. So my dad worked for Ford. So I if I was like, hey, there's a little light. This is OT off. What is that? He's like, oh, you hit the overdrive. Switch on the gear Shifter. You should just hit that little button that you probably never knew was there. And I'm like, oh, okay. So I guess I sort of lived with a manual for a car. Clearly. Yeah. I I'm I'm mechanically completely incompetent so match. The those those manuals are useful to some of us, right, especially if you think about any piece of technology that you're not good at a DVD player a phone, a laptop some new product that you've never tried out before the user manual is supposed to be helpful. And what I think is interesting is that the human mind is way more complex than anything. We buy no matter how technologically sophisticated is. And there's no owners meant. And I think we need our own owners manuals, but we also need to give them to the people we work with. And so what what this manager had done. It Bain was he he was going to write a user manual for new employees to say, look, here's what I'm good at. Here's where I struggle. Here's what brings out the best in me in the worst in me. So that they could get to know him faster. And then he was like, wait. Why would I do this? I I don't know all that stuff. The people who've worked with me know, all that stuff. And so he he challenged his team. And he said I want you each to write a draft of what's all the stuff. You know about me now that you wish you had known in your first week of us working together. And he had the team put that together. And then yeah, they they they they had a rough draft. And they they've compared notes on which things important and less important. And then it ended up getting turned into a one page document that is given to every new person who works for him. And I thought that was a great idea. And so I reached out. A few people who work with me. And I asked them to to write out a just a draft of the user manual for me. And I only predicted I made a list of what I thought it was was going to be in it. I I could test myself awareness only predicted about a third of it. Oh, wow. Wow. So you try to write an instruction manual for yourself. Yeah. Yeah. So I I knew I would be told for example that I was constantly late. And that if you know, if you wanna work well with me one, you need to you need to be aware of that that I I have a chronic inability to disengage from the current task until it's done, and then to if there's something really important, you either need to stress the importance of timeliness for that activity for me or you need to lie to me about when it starts. So that was predictable. I knew that was going to go in there. And I I wrote it almost verbatim matching what one of my colleagues. Did there are whole bunch of other things that I just did not end -ticipant at all. So okay. We create an instruction manual ourselves. And I'll talk about how we do that in a second because I'm very curious about that. But then you didn't really it's not just as simple as you sitting down and going. Okay. I know these things about the way I operate, let me notify you. There were things in there that you didn't know, right. Yeah. Quite a bit. I was like, oh, this is this is either really uncomfortable or a great learning experience. And I'm gonna try to turn it into the learning part. Yeah. Probably a little bit of both. Because I would imagine the people you work with closely guys. Like, Jason my wife, Jen the rest of my team here. They've got a vested interest in making me better at everything or an indefinitely invested interest in making me less difficult in other things that we do together. But the problem is in gen knows this Jason knows this the challenges. Of course, if there's something that I need to hear. But they know I don't wanna hear it. They're probably not going to jump over themselves to deliver bad news. And then get me kinda riled up. Yeah. Because that's only gonna make their lives more difficult. Right. Yeah. And I mean, I try to be aware of this and not shoot the messenger. Because the last thing you want to do is train your spouse, and your producer in people, you work with really closely to be like, hey, if you have. Problem with Jordan definitely don't tell him because he's going to make your life a living. Hell is that just bottle it up until you find a better job? That's not who you want around. You right know. So Jason we should talk off light. I've got some ideas for you. Yeah. How do we get that more accurate picture of ourselves? Then from our co workers and colleagues I mean, I assume we need to be working closely with them, but the weekly Skype resume meetings, not gonna cut it for most people know, I think one of the things I've learned from from a couple of liters I've worked with is. I heard I heard a version this story from I think three different leaders was they felt like as they got more senior or more influential people stopped giving them the candid feedback they used to get. And you know, I they would just ask for it. And nobody told them anything. And eventually they said all right. You know what I've got to. I have to really go out on a limb here to try to make it safe for them to speak up and one of the things a bunch of them. Did was they said all right? I'm going to give feedback on myself out loud. And I so I I ended up trying this to get my own team to write my user manual. I said alright here a couple of things I think I'm really bad at. And then okay, which which of these do you agree and disagree with? And what am I missing what am I blind spots? And once I put the blind spot question in there. The it was like the floodgates just opened it was like, well, sometimes you crush people with your with your negative feedback in on an idea that was the point. I heard multiple times. I was like what I'm I feel like I'm encouraging. You don't do that. Oh, wait. No. That's a terrible idea. And I think what what I didn't realize was I was just trying to be efficient. I thought okay. I've got I've got a meeting with with nine people on my team, you know. And I think part of my job is to to quickly that which is our new and rigorous. And so, you know, if something didn't didn't meet that bar, it'd be like, Nope. That's probably not gonna work. Let's move onto the next one. And you know, I I'm just like, yeah. You can say that to me too. And what I was totally unaware of is there's a little status hierarchy there and people are feeling really discouraged and demotivated motivated by that. And so that was a kind of a big wake up call for me on making sure that people recognize that I see potential in their ideas. How do we put ourselves then in situations where maybe we can't ignore feedback from multiple sources short of do we need to have like an intervention kind of situation where it's like, hey, roast me, you know, I don't I don't really know how this would look in practice. This. No, I think I actually think most of it is about just making it easier for people to tell you the truth. So I mean, I'll give you some some things that I've I've been doing that that I found helpful that, you know, in some cases, come out of the research, in some cases, are just ideas that occurred to me when I was I was grappling with this. One thing. I do is every talk that I give after I get off stage. I ask what's the one thing that I could do better. And it's such a simple thing and totally non threatening for people to answer it because who couldn't do at least one thing better. And in some cases, get immediate suggestions. In other cases. I find out that they actually do an audience survey that they never bothered to share with their speaker before. And now I've got a whole bunch of data points to learn from. And then when I do is once I collect that feedback I loop it back with my team and say, look, you know, I got this feedback. What do you think of it? And that puts them in a position to hold me accountable for for making changes. Well, okay. That's that's that seems like. Idea. Is there something we can do look let's say we're not the boss. Let's say we just want to get some great feedback from those around us. I know you've got this reflected best self exercise. Would you take us through this? Oh, yeah. This is this is one of my favorite exercises and not just because it comes from wolverine territory. So I was I was first introduced to this. When I started grad school at Michigan bunch of my colleagues and advisors at the time had noticed that not only are people often uncomfortable giving negative feedback. But sometimes they're uncomfortable giving positive feedback. They they feel like well, actually a bunch of reasons. So I might I might be hesitant to compliment you because I think it's gonna be awkward or because I'm afraid that you'll you'll just think that I'm trying to to Brown nose or or kiss up in some way. So I don't do it. And then you miss out on some some helpful information about what you're good at or, you know, something that at least would energize you a little bit because it's. It's nice to hear when you have a strength. So the reflective bestself is an exercise that's designed to to counteract those problems. And what you're what you're asked to do. I I've had students do this for a decade. I've had senior executives do it military generals. People find it really informative and pretty uplifting. What you do is you reach out to fifteen to twenty people who know you. Well, and it's up to you who those people are. So they might be colleagues. They might be friends family members. And then you ask them all to tell a story about you. When you're at your best, and it doesn't have to be long. So just a paragraph about a time when when you really were great or excelled at something. And you you get these stories coming in and pretty soon seventeen people have told you about a time when when you were able to you know, to to shine in some way, and the first thing is people are surprised because sometimes they don't even remember the stories they hear and they're like what I did that pr-. Sure, you're talking about someone else. I have no recollection of that. That's true. At all. Then there's another layer of surprise, which is often strengths are highlighted that people. Don't know they have and that. Yeah. That goes back to the blind spot issue. We don't just have blind spots about weaknesses. We have blind spots about strengths to. There are things. We just do instinctively that we have a talent for or that we approach in a creative way. And we don't even think twice about it. And so people people come out realizing, hey, they're a couple things. I'm good at that. I'm not I'm not using those strengths as often as I could and your job. Then once you collect all those stories. This is the part that involves some work is you create a portrait you analyze the common themes, and you say, look, you know, these are my three strengths that stand up most around when I'm at my best through the eyes of the people I trust. And here the situations where I've seen to be good at using them. And here are some ideas on where I might be able to use them that I'm not already, and I I recommend it to anybody who who. Has a I guess who has a human brain. Yeah. That seems useful. And we'll put this in the worksheets as we do with all practical exercises from the show this reflected bestself exercise, which is from wolverine territory. That's the university of Michigan. Not the marvel comic book for those of you wondering what the hell we talking about there. I like the idea of getting fifteen to twenty people that I know well to to tell a story about a time when I was at my best what happens when they go. I don't know. Can you give me an example? Should we feed them some kind of example, or is that just going to screw up the whole thing in skew the results, you know? You know? I don't know. I think that's actually a good empirical question. So I'd I'd wanna see the data. You can run the experiment where some people are given examples and others aren't I've seen it done both ways. I think I think sometimes a little bit of direction is helpful. So if if you want to offer an example or two that's fine. But if you just Google the reflected bestself, it's pretty clear from the instructions to most people are like, oh, I just have to think about a time when you were really outstanding. I can do that. And then I'll write what you did. And how it mattered? So I think I don't think the examples are necessary. But I think it's it's possible. They could be helpful. And this is something for its context dependent. Right. Because I guess a close friend of mine might be like, you know, one thing that was great was when we were at that fast food place, and there was that old lady, and she couldn't find her wallet. And you just paid for her food that was really cool that said something about you. Whereas somebody who works with me might be like remember that time that something broke, and you stayed up all night with us to help fix it. That was pretty cool made us all feel. Like a team. It's going to be different. I would imagine for each person given context that you work with them or that they have with you. Right. It is. Although I actually liked to see people do it across different contexts because two things can happen one. Is you you start to see consistencies and you say all right? I'm not a totally different person. With with my colleagues as I am with a good friend like Jordan in in your two stories, even though they sound really different. What I hear is a common thread that you like to be the hero or that. You know in crisis are under pressure and earn a difficult situation. You step up in those two made up examples. That is correct. Totally totally. But you know, what examples did you make up wonder if that says something about your psyche? Who knows probably so there's you know, I think it is helpful for people to realize, hey, you know, I went I went to a co worker, and I went to a friend and they've never met and they've seen me totally different situations. And they hit on one of the same strengths. That must be you know, that that must have happened because it's pretty represents. Give of what I'm good at. And then the other part is when the opposite happens when, you know, something that you feel you're very strong at in one domain, you realize that none of the stories in another domain highlight that and you're like, you know, what that generosity I show with my family. I could probably show more of it worker or vice versa. That's in now. That's really fascinating. This is really awesome. So going to annoy my friends and family with this immediately. Jason you're getting should ask ASAP. You're welcome. Yeah. Like, this could yield some really interesting results. Wow. Wow. And I like that it's for when you're at your best because if you did it, and you're like give me feedback on high could become better. I feel like you could easily get really overwhelmed with all these things that you need to improve and all these different areas of her life. Although that might also be useful. So we were assigned to do this. When I when I took a class that was you know, trying to help us with our own personal development. And if I was like, this is interesting. In the my second thought was well, I wonder this. This is kind of it's only one side of the coin. What happens if I get a reflected were self at people to tell a story about a time when I was horrible. And then look at the themes in those stories, it was way harder to your point earlier to get people to tell me those stories, but actually learned a lot from it. Yes. So did you really just invert the exercise, and what kind of what kind of stuff comes up, then reflected worst self? I did I found that a lot of my my worst moments were stories about times when I was distracted. And I it was like I'd be back to back in meetings. And then, you know, checking Email and really not engaging with people which ironically, we're supposed to be one of my strengths. When when people when people had my attention, they had my full attention. And then I guess when when they didn't they really didn't get any of it. And so I took that and said, okay, I'm going to I'm going to start carving out time between meetings to make sure I have a moment to to check my Email, or you know, my voicemail, and that way, I I'll feel like I'm not missing something important. I also what else did I get? Oh. I got feedback that that I was essentially I'm trying to remember the way it was articulated. It was pretty funny. The gist of it was that I was so nervous that I was causing other people to shake in their seats. When I got on stage physically. Wow. That so you are so tangibly anxious. Other people started Mirroring, you're nonverbal communication, essentially instinctually and everyone felt awkward or nervous about it. That is that really. Yikes. That's up you definitely wanna fix. But. Yeah. That must have been hard to here. Yeah. Especially as somebody who's about to become a professor, and you know, one day give TED talks. I was like my executives contagious. This is not a good thing. Like, it was it was it was the fuel. I needed to go and start working with a with a speaking and teaching coach. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Because you think like, oh, I'm I'm anxious. Of course is because the one thing we learned earlier in this episode was that we're really good at evaluating that kind of thing for ourselves. But, hey, at least I'm covering it up. Well, and nobody can tell oh, I thought I really I I mean, I guess I was just so anxious that what I was doing to cover it up only scratched the surface. But yeah, I knew I knew I was anxious. I did not know I had telekinesis, and I could transfer my exciting across the room. Wow. Bravo that so I was really excited to do this reflected bestself until we started talking about the reflected worst self which seems like you probably have to do both. And now, I'm kind of dreading that one. Well, I think there's there's actually a work around. So I'll say the the evidence suggests that the reflected bestself, we we do know that it can help with development by allowing people to recognize their strengths, and you know, and use them productively. I've never seen anyone study the reflected where self so I I can't vouch for it with data, but I have noticed a work around, which is you can just do the reflected bestself, and then at the end of it once you've finished making a list of of what your strengths are most of your weaknesses are going to be opposite of this. Right. So if one of your strengths is that you're really good at performing and kind of capturing people's attention. Chances are that you're not listening as well as you should be. If if one of your strengths is is actually keeping your cool and not being a neurotic mess there. They're probably times when you under react to emotionally intense situations, and you want to be more aware of that. And so I. You can make you could actually densify your worst self by just saying, okay? What's the opposite of my best self right, right? Yeah. What's the inverse of my of my best self because I think we all at some level. We do secretly know everyone right now is thinking, Ooh, I hope people don't notice that. This are all I know on a minute here. It's going to be about this in that we all kind of know at least those of us with even a modicum of self awareness. We're like, oh, yeah. People are going to write about my impatience. It's just that's going to be the thing that shows up in the worst self we secretly know this stuff because we've been chastised about it before probably by significant others, close friends parents at some point throughout the course of our life, and you you've got to be aware of of some of it unless you're toll. I mean, that's not just a blind spot. Right. That's being totally blind. Right. Yeah. That totally makes sense so reflected bestself optional reflected worst self. I think it's great that we have ways to figure out how to be. Become a little bit more self-aware by utilizing the phone of utilizing the perceptions of those around us that work with us closely because most of us almost every one of us has this. So we don't have to develop some keener sense of self awareness or go do hundreds of hours of what's it called that therapy? Where you go analysis. We don't have to do that. We can really just ask people around us to let loose on what how they perceive us, which actually people are probably dying to do at some level. Anyway. Right. Yeah. I mean, what what's funny about it is one of the ways that you know, you also think about the other side of this, which is okay. So, you know, I want to get people to be honest with me, but I also want to make it easier to be honest with them, and you know, sometimes people don't wanna hear the negative feedback that you have for them or the constructive criticism that you've you spent a lot of time figuring out how to deliver. So one of the ways that I've? I've I've dealt with that is I've started just occasionally letting people know, hey, I noticed a couple of things that I thought might be useful for feedback. Or are you interested? And no one ever says, no. Here's the idea that somebody is having thoughts about you. And you don't have access to those dots is very very uncomfortable. Right. Right. And so I think that that sometimes opens the door because once people have opted in and said, yeah, you know, what I I want that feedback. It makes it way easier to give it Adam. Thank you so much really interesting as always, and it's always great to be able to have a better picture or a clearer picture of who we are and how we can improve. And so thank you for your work. And thanks for coming on the show today. Thank you, Jordan. Delighted to be here. Appreciate it. Great show as always with Adam really, really a pleasure talking with him. If you want to know how I managed to keep guys like atom in my Rolodex on speed dial. Well, it's all about those systems those tiny habits the ones I'm teaching you in our level. One course, which is free over at Jordan. Harbinger dot com slash level one. I actually just did a class for this for some military and law enforcement and intelligence agents. And so I'm teaching this to people who are already good at networking. So if you're one of those who was like, well, I'm already pretty good at this naturally. That's great. You'll have plenty to learn here. It's not like put yourself out there. I've got real info in here that I'm teaching people keeping the world safe. So or making it less safe, depending on your perspective? But go ahead and check it out the drills take just a few minutes per day. It is free. That's the point Jordan, harbinger dot com slash level one. And speaking of relationships, tell me your number one takeaway here from Adam grant, I'm at Jordan harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. This show is produced in association with podcast one in this EPA. Sewed was co produced by Jason reflection of mediocre self to Philip. Oh and Jen harbinger show notes by Robert Fogerty worksheets by Caleb bacon. And I'm your host Jordan, harbinger the fee for the shows, you share it with friends when you find something useful, which should be in every episode. So please share the show with those you love, and even those you don't we've got a lot more in the pipeline very excited to bring it to you. And in the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show. So you can live. What you listen. And we'll see you next time. A lot of people ask me which shows I recommend in which shows I listen to one that I often listen to is called the one you feed with Eric Zimmer. And I've got Eric here. One episode. You did recently was with Steven c Hayes the founder of acceptance and commitment therapy sounds a little woo. But tell us what's going on with this episode. We'll it's actually not that. Woo. Acceptance and commitment therapy is sort of considered the third wave of psychology improvements. Cognitive behavior therapy being kind of the second wave, so it's sort of an improvement upon that he wrote a book called get out of your mind and Indy your life, which is an absolute masterpiece. And he just talked so much about exactly what it sounds like we spent so much time up in our heads, and worrying and fretting and planning and thinking that we're not really living our lives, and he has a ton of great tools to help you get out of your mind and into your life. And one thing that he says, I think is so useful. Is that one way to? Judge our thoughts. Whether they're good or bad is really whether they're useful. It's not as a good thought as bad thought. Is this a useful thought? And it's so powerful in the whole episode. I think is is really one of our favorites. And if you wanna check out the one you feed, of course, will link to it in the show notes, and you can also just search for the one you feed and look for the two headed wolf in any podcast app.
156: Jaron Lanier | Why You Should Unplug from Social Media for Good
"Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan harbinger. As always I'm here with my producer Jason to Filipo using social media is like living in a behaviorist cage, you're constantly being watched analyzed and manipulated rather than any particular technology, the business model of the social media companies that are watching you will that is the underlying problem, this business model relies on selling your data to advertisers that want to change the way that you act and convince you to buy it also encourages some serious aide whole behavior deprives, you of your economic dignity hampers, the democratic process and even undermines your experience of humanity. What's worse, the filter bubble makes us all see things that confirm our own world views, and surround us with people who think the same way as we do. This is so dangerous today Gerin linear one of the architects of the early and not so early internet dissect how these media companies curate, and essentially control what we see think and feel if you wanna know how I manage to book guests like. Aaron and manage my relationships with hundreds even thousands of people I used systems, and I use tiny habits, and I'm teaching you these for free over in our level. One course over at Jordan, harbinger dot com slash level one. All right. Here's Jaron Lanier. I'll tell you when I was prepping the show I saw that your childhood sounded pretty wild, my wife, and I were like, wait a minute. Then what happened hold on? What like there's it was kind of like a lifetime movie gypsy upbringing in a way. Again. I mean, it wasn't intentionally. So what had happened was? Might parents were both through Veivers of deadly antisemitism in Europe, my mom's after concentration camp in Austria. She's from Vienna. My dad's family was mostly wiped out by pogroms in Ukraine. Okay. And they met as survivors in this very bohemian kinda cool kids world of the fifties near city, and when they had a kid which could be me they had this impulse to run. Because what happened is my mother's family didn't leave Vienna soon. Enough, many others did they didn't they waited too long. And of course, it haunts me these days I have a daughter now. And you know, you wonder what's happening in the US, and you know, try to make these Beth's, but none of us really know for sure anyway, they were going through that. And I think it can with this calculation. We need to get as far from civilization as possible. But. We've got these American citizens ships now that has to be in the US, and we have to be in a college town, for God's sakes. And so the most remote place, they could find that had a decent university was in southern New Mexico, and the place they landed was actually very close to record McCarthy lives, very close to the blood Meridian territory, I recognize every Little Rock and branch in that novel. And I initially didn't have a gypsy childhood. At all initially, my mom raised me like a kind of a high pressure. European mom would had me take a bus across the border every day to Mexico because in those days, Mexico is more advanced it had schools that were couple years ahead of the Texas schools and everybody who cared what their kids sent their kids over the border in little buses Riley. Yeah. So that Mexico was where the intellectuals the artists were and where you went to get your kids educated. It'd be like sending kids to Switzerland or something that's and cried DAT know that back then. Oh, yeah. And Mexico was this place that was. Not develop. There was still developing. But it had a sweetness about it. It was it was like Italy or something it was like this place. People love to love to you know. And but then the gypsy part starts when my mom dies in a car accident. When when I'm about nine, and then things really do gift strange. It's true. Yeah. I I'm reading about this. And it's like, you your debt you became the midwife you delivered a baby for this frontal. I didn't I didn't exaggerate. So you shouldn't either. I was a midwife assistant, dear friend. Yeah. I are quick mom dies. It turns out. My mother was the breadwinner. So we were suddenly super poor in our house burned down, probably antisemitic arson algebra. Yeah. It was this part of the country that time was pretty rough. There was a lot of violence. We weren't at the bottom of the social wrongs that would be reserved for what we're called she Konno's or Hispanics of Mexican ancestry. They were they were really put upon pretty badly. One of the kids in my school was murdered by their kids in the school. And they got away with it. Yeah. Now, that's I mean America in that period. Is specially like rural and remote America was rather violent. And and awful and scary. It's it's one of the reasons why these days win some some of the internet. Idealist would say oh the internet Sydney wild west and we're gonna we're the Packers of the Cowboys. I'm thinking, oh, God that was horrible the the wild west was terrible. I was there like we don't want that. But anyway, what happened was we didn't have any money. So we moved to this piece of super cheap desert land with all our stuff under tarps, and we lived in tents and gradually built this crazy house that my dad, let me design, and as I so it's a very long and crazy story. But yes, indeed, it's true. When I needed to start making money, I did become an assistant midwife, and it was for a service that helped indigent farm worker. So we'd run around into fields and help women who were giving birth in fields. I mean, it was just in the field. Yeah. Because they couldn't they weren't documented. So they couldn't go anywhere L. Wow. Yeah. So you deliver this baby. And I guess the guy who with prison at the time the the father. When he gets out. He gives you this car. That's got bullet holes in it. Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean, what happened was the mother had some sort of mental difficulty and was institutionalized shortly after the birth babies and documented devs and jail. He had been caught up smuggling drugs across who your grand river and grand river. Moore's just sort of a muddy thing with a bit of water, and it it's you can drive across it sort of. But the cargo stock bullet holes and car it was just sitting there he gets out, and he says would you like a car and in those days, I must have been. I'd have to reconstruct it, but it was probably about fifteen or sixteen years old or something. I was hell. Yeah. You want a car Boyd? Did I want to know it made because there's no other option in those days. Like you walked you hitchhiked or you had a car? There's no other option because the conditions weren't good for cycling. I mean, it was just that was it, you know. And so I got this car and he said oh bullet holes. We'll we'll put bumper stickers over the bullet holes that worked actually pretty well it had rotted out in the rivers. He could see the the street going by under your feet. Can yet really careful not to burn yourself on the exhaust because it was hot and Novak seats. But I turned it the other thing I did for money aside from being an assistant midwife is a had a goatherd, and I sold milk and cheese, and this paid for my undergraduate education. I was reading college at started college early. So in these years, I had to pay for tuition and stuff. So I used to make good milk and sell it. And this is a car. It was a dodge slant six which and those were indestructible and. I drove it to Silicon Valley eventually, and it served me through my first years here. And I cried when I finally decided I have to give it up it. I'm surprised it didn't just sort of disintegrate while parked. You know, it almost did I used to I was thrown to the ground by cops a few times round Paolo Alto. When I finally made it to Silicon Valley because they see me starting it. But with wires United him have a key. Oh, thinking stealing it who would steal this. It's it's really mine. But yeah, I missed it. I missed it a lot when I have to give it up. What brought you? This is all decidedly low tech. Right. So what brings you to Silicon Valley at that point? I mean, kid kidding New Mexico by now, I've been to New York and back. That's a whole story. I'm probably about seventeen and have my first serious girlfriend. Okay. She turns out to be visiting her these strange mom from her family. Her dad is back in L A. And he happened to be the head of the Caltech physics department, which I didn't know she goes back after the summer bacteria. Pasadena. I chase her as you might expect someone to do. And I suddenly landed in Pasadena, and I'm like the weird boyfriend of the charming daughter of the head of the physics department, which is some sort of weird role in the community. And it turned out to be a really important moment for me. Because even though it was informal, it meant I was spending time with people like Richard Feynman and learning things, and I already had a math background by. It's a my I haven't even gone into it. But I had a crazy other story going on. So I was it was an amazing time and eventually are really kids. So she met somebody else we're still friends now. And she can remember this other guy's name Lee win long game. I yeah. I mean. Yeah, you know, the I. I guess and so I had to do something. And I just ended up actually potted ride on the back of her brother's motorcycle up to Santa Cruz, and then I lived in Santa Cruz Rosza bus guy play music to played on a sidewalk and lived in this absolutely preposterously, unsafe and unhealthy and revolting. Compressed group household, by the beach with all these like surfer kids. Oh, my got 'em. Everybody was thinking. No, you do math. You should go over the hill to Silicon Valley, you know. And I it hadn't even I was kind of an country kid. I didn't even think that way. But I finally went over one day in my jalopy in that same car and discovered that my skills were valuable in this funny place, and the yeah, that's how I ended up and you named and founded virtual reality, which when I was reading your story. I was thinking, okay. Your non virtual reality is kind of chaotic. So maybe there was some a lure to like, hey, there's this whole world I can construct where I'm not getting chased by anti-semites and lose my girlfriend, and you know, endanger of having my foot stripped off by the street is I drive. Yeah. I guess there's something to that. If your life is strange enough than maybe reality can be where you find normalcy. I there might be something to it. When we get to a few years later in stories, what Timothy Leary we can cover that angle. If you want. But I started out doing music for videogames because I really like so many young people I was into music, I was into tech, and I really wanted to decrease the music, and I really wanted to text I did music for super early videogames eight bit era ones. And then eventually started making my own games ahead one that was pretty successful. But it's very very strange. It would still seem strange today. I think and it was called moon dust, and it was this is like pren- intendo or what what what would have been. Yeah. This was way pren- intendo at this. This was eight bit time. So we already had things like the Commodore and the apple two was out. And of course, the Atari the first console and that was kind of it. It was before there was such a thing as a P C. Yeah. Okay. And then I I had this one hit game called moon. Does that actually generated a lot of royalty? And so some friends, and I we moved into this little collection of old sort of bungalows or shack. Along a creek on a dirt road in Palo Alto, kind of place that just doesn't exist there anymore, and we all live there, and we started what are you know, the dream was to build retrea Audi. That was what we wanted to do. So people were thinking about virtual reality in the eighties. Well, sure, I mean when you get into retreat, one of the ways, you can stay up all night and have conversations is to talk about exactly when it started in which had count, and what's the prehistory and all that? But the first headset that track so that as you move your head. There's a compensated three d virtual world that appears to be stationary outside you which is one threshold for when you can start talking about it. I have in Sutherland the inventor of computer graphics proposed that in the mid sixties and built one in sixty nine. So that would be the first headset. I made the first commercial one and I made their enough one wants to click. I I could come up with other. I semi the first mass produced one or production line one and made the first color one. And the first the first one that was. Fully self supported in every sense. And and the firsthand interactions with clubs the first multi person one, and we did a lot of the first applications like surgical, sim and designing interiors and vehicle prototyping in a kind of stuff like that. So and indeed the term virtual reality was meant initially to be a contrast to the original term. So when I've in Sutherland who still with us in his currently in Oregon and working on an amazing idea for a different approach to making chips where instead of a central clock all the different parts of the chip are coordinating in an emergent way. And it's it's very cool and interesting philosophically, but anyway, Ivan's original term was virtual world, which he got from art theorist name Susanne Langer from the forties and fifties. And I thought if that's virtual world than if you do a multi person when we should call that virtual reality because reality is shared world. So that's where virtual reality came from. And also back then we had mixed reality. Which is for when you have a combining display. Which we did some prototypes of his well, but never sold commercially in those days, but let me let me assure you, you can find people who will want to talk about this all night and argue about little minute show, which term is this to the I mean on my God, his snow end. Yeah. Well, one of the reasons that I wanted to talk to you. I'm of course, I'm curious about all the tech. But you've not this book that my producer. Jason is a big fan of yours, by the way, basically made me read which is ten arguments for deleting your social media gins. And when I read it, I it struck some fear into me, and I wanna dive into this because this is something even my parents are on social media at this point. And so first of all you have no social media accounts. At all, correct. Though this Kirk there many fake versions of me. Yes. There's periodically fake Jaren linear on Twitter and whatnot. I think Mr Putin maintains a whole base went to fake turn laniers. Whereas I can tell you maybe. Yeah. You're listening to the Jordan harbinger show with our guest. Jaron lanier? We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by athletic greens. What is the most important meal of your day? Traditionalist swear by breakfast, while the rest of us argue about the merits of lunch over dinner vice versa. And if you're already toughest nails like recent guest general Stanley, crystal maybe only have one meal a day. You can call it. Whatever the hell you want. But I know whatever the most important meal of my day as it's probably gonna involve athletic greens. Especially if I'm traveling around the road athletic greens is a supplement source from seventy five whole food ingredients feels energy immunity digestion helps manage stress I got plenty of that. So I need all the management. I can get. It's also got essential vitamins and minerals. Prebiotics probiotics enzymes adapted Jin's, and you basically take one daily scoop. You throw twelve servings of vegetables and fruits in there with that scoop. That's not bad for our body. Of course. Tim Ferriss calls it his all in one nutritional insurance. I like to refer to it as veg. Title insurance? But you know, whatever Jason tell them what they can get. If you want to experience the difference that adding athletic greens to your health regime can make go to athletic greens dot com slash Jordan for twenty free travel packs, a seventy nine dollars value with your first purchase, that's athlete, greens dot com slash Jordan. Don't miss this deal. This episode is also sponsored by design crowd crowd sourcing. It's how busy people get stuff done in the twenty first century and thanks to design crowd. You can focus on running your business while handing over the reins of your company's logo web design t-shirt shirt that whole process to a pool of over six hundred seventy thousand pro designers from all over the world design crowd crowd source, custom work based on your specs. And then you pick the design you like best, and then you approve payment to the designers. It's really simple. What you do? Is you go to design crowd dot com slash Jordan. You tell them what you want post a little brief of the art you need. They invite designers from all over the world six hundred seventy thousand to respond within hours. You get a few designs over the course of a week and change you might get sixty one hundred maybe even more different pieces from designers around the world. You pick the designee like best and you approve payment to the designer if you don't like any of them design crowd offers money back guarantee. Jason what get it checkout design crowd dot com slash Jordan. That's DAS. I n CRO WD dot com slash Jordan for a special one hundred dollar VIP offer for our listeners or simply enter the discount code Jordan when posting a project on design crowd. Don't forget we have a worksheet for today's episode. So you can make sure you solidify your understanding of the key takeaways from Jaron Lanier that link is in the show notes at Jordan. Harbinger dot com slash podcast. Thanks for listening and supporting the show to learn more about our sponsors and get links to all the great discounts. You just heard visit Jordan, harbinger dot com slash deals. If you'd like some tips on how to subscribe to the show, just go to Jordan, harbinger dot com slash subscribe. And now back to our show with Jaron Lanier. Why is social media bad for us? I mean, look, I iron nutshell this for me. And then we'll go into each area in more detail. I already know at makes me feel like crap. So I get it done a visceral level. But people don't really believe me. They think I'm being a I when I talked Krista. Look, the first thing I want to say is I don't think social media in some broad sense is necessarily bad. I don't think it passed to be bad forever. I think that there's this business model that makes it bad. And so people can connect together in things like social media, very, positively. And if you want me to give you an example of one that I think is positive now, I can actually come up with a future a get hub for programmers is like that. It's kind of like social media. It's not about third parties. Manipulating you. It's about direct clev- ration- contact between the people who are doing things, and it seems mostly really positive to me really productive. It seems to be doing the good work of civilised. Nation, and it seems to be improving the lives of people who are on it. There's nothing compulsory about being on it. People. Don't feel like they have no choice. But I think it's good for them. So that's that's an example, and that's kind of specialized, but what's happened with kind of mainstream social media's has been taken over by this advertising paradigm. And with that means is anytime to people connect it's financed by some third person who wants to manipulate those people and the whole system because that's the only way anybody makes money the whole system becomes optimized for that or addiction manipulation sneaky means trickiness. And once it's optimized for that. Then it's really easy for bad actors to create millions of fake people to create fake social perception to create just fake perception fake news, fake paranoia. Sneered abilities to get people distracted or shutdown very common strategy. And so the whole thing is kind of turned into garbage. And if you. Look at at examples where you don't have everything optimized for these third parties who believe they can manipulate you. It doesn't have to be that way. And I mentioned it hub is when example, I there's some others. But I I've been liking that one lately because there you have a really positive online community. Like, why can't we do that for other aspects of life? Yeah. And you explain why that that doesn't work and later in the book, and one thing that really struck me was that people have different views of reality entirely, speaking of virtual reality because we're actually seeing totally different things on social media. So it's not like I'm sitting in the same room with my mom and dad over the holidays watching Fox News or MSNBC, right? It's it's everyone, you know, online every video YouTube feeds you every personality your presented that you then follow. They're all curated to reinforce a specific view. And we're all kind of getting grouped into these different groups based on what we are what we're doing online. And that way, we all kind of seem crazy to each other. Because. Of the algorithm. Yeah. So the thing is if each person has a personalized feed, and this is very important. That's calculated to manipulate the person that's calculated to change behavior patterns that person and make no mistake if that wasn't going on Facebook would be bankrupt. Because that's the only product they have to sell. That's what they do when you put money into it. That's what you're by. So. If everybody seeing the slightly different world that's optimized manipulate them. Then when they talk to each other. They don't have as much of a basis of shared experience as they need to have to fully empathize. And so when you talk to somebody who's been using social media. It's kind of weird. It's like you haven't been they've been away and their social media world, but everybody has been and then it's almost like we all become slightly strangers or every single day we've returned from some weird vacation that nobody else can relate to him. And you start have this strange way in which things on feel real anymore because things feel real through social perception when when you have people evolved to pay attention to it, the people around them are paying attention to we worked together as a group like mere cats if you like kind of looking out and in the book, I describe an experiment, my friends ice city when we were little kids where you go out into a crowd on a street and just like certain looking at something, and pointing everybody will be looking even if there's nothing, and that's that's. Kind of persuasion and social media. And if if there's no agreement on what all that stuff is you're in this, the the real world becomes less real it becomes less shared, and it doesn't have to be that way sharing online shouldn't decrease the reality of offline real world stuff. But if you do it this way, it does to Rapin into how this actually works. Right. So the algorithm. Ick customization everyone's personal feed among other things looks different. And so because people who are listening to this who aren't really technically inclined might be like, wait. I'm seeing the same thing that my husband is saying that my girlfriend is saying that my kids are seeing on social media, and that's not that's not the case the feed is different that YouTube curation, so everything we're being fed has essentially been tailored just for us, especially on the big platforms like Google Facebook. And Instagram what happens in practice is the story that the programmers tell themselves is that. That we're measuring data from people and using it to optimize experience of people. But in practice that becomes a manipulating people in guiding them because there's no way to tell which is happening. Like, if you if you say, well, I'm going to have this algorithm. Do more of whatever seems to be predictive for the person that might be that you're taking data and optimizing something. So it's perfect for the person or might be that you're changing the person to match your data. You have no way of telling which is more true as the what I mean. Yeah. A bit of a subtle point. And so so within ends up happening is they tend to sort of cluster people together to corral them into groups of. But the problem is when you're corralled into a group of shared perception, it doesn't help that problem. I was just talking about people living in different realities because those aren't even necessarily people, you know, so the algorithm might corral you into shared perception about the latest music and a politician in the latest. Fees and the latest nose picking trends on YouTube, regardless what I shouldn't make fun of the silly stuff. Okay. With whatever people like, it's great. But you know, it might corral you into group of similar people, and it has to do statistics on large populations to learn. But there's no guarantee that, you know, those people there's no guarantee that you're interacting with them. So on the one hand at Corrales you into type on the other hand, it does it in such a way that it. It doesn't reduce at problem of you and other people not quite living in the same world. You should getting the worst of both both approaches and that not living in the same world. Erodes? Our empathy for one another right is is kind of what I understood from the book. Right. So since we can't understand every each other. So well, we kind of don't have the same ability of feel for them either. Yeah. So empathy is a really interesting idea. The term empathy was actually invented by psychologists in in Germany along time ago who were trying to imagine. Something like virtuality. So the very idea of empathy as part of the history of virtual reality. It was originally a part of this idea that if you could imagine yourself positioned as any part of the universe. And some of the original examples where if you could imagine yourself being a leaf blowing in the wind or a mountain re could feel forests growing on your body that sort of thing that extreme exercise in changing who you are would then help you able to experience life in some of the person's shoes in comparison is so different from you. And then you might become kinder and less likely to be, you know, racist or biased or dismissive that was the original idea, and that was part of the early idealism virtual reality when we got around to it the in the eighties. But unfortunately, when I it's not working that way at all. Because instead you're being optimized for the for the purpose of whoever's paying for the advertising or whoever is nippy letting the system with a bunch of. Aac people and it and therefore it's kind of the metaphor use. Sometimes it's like their kin be therapeutic hypnotists, but if you hypnotize, but somebody who's working for another person, you don't even know who that is then there's incredible potential for abuse. And probably everything gets a little weird and crazy, and that's kind of what's happened to the internet. So this isn't just harmless ecommerce because look my counter argument here would be I like seeing relevant ads. I want ads for stuff I might want. What's wrong with that? Yeah. You know, the whole Anthony was really cute at first because we wanted the we wanted to pretend we're in the socialistic environment. Like that was very intensely desired by the kind of leftist early internet culture to want to pretend were giving freely in receiving things for free. But at the same time, we worshiped people like Steve Jobs, the big entre preneurs, so we wanted to have some way to do business, but still feel socialists and the advertising idea seems to solve that. And so Google was kind of forced into corner. The internet culture would have accepted. No other. Solution. Because it's the only solution that gives you both passions at once, and it I it really was cute you'd see relevant ads to didn't know there was that dentist in my neighborhood. That's cool. And the problem with it is at in its crudest form, it's fine. But over the years, the computers, get faster and faster the internet gets higher band with the algorithms become more sophisticated all the players and the system learn and get more clever, and so the the incentive to manipulate that's inherent in that just gets optimize optimize optimize and to certain point. We get so good at it. Screwing with each other. If that's what the internet's optimized for that. It's no longer advertising. It's no longer. Just like, oh, I'm seeing relevant ads. It turns into the stark thing that no person can even be conscious of it becomes this really creepy new world of massive behavior modification and and that is different from advertising. It's different from what we've ever meant by advertising in the past. Let's talk a little bit about why. Let's see advertising plane plane in a away and these sort of covert ads or covert behavior. Modification look I run ads on the show. I don't put them in the middle of the conversation because I don't need to I can put them in imposing. But Howard those ads different from the things that were that you're talking about online than our insidious. Well, there are a few important differences. One thing is that the ad is not creating your show. Whereas if you're looking at a news feed that's made of a lot of little a lot of short pieces that are put together in order to enhance the effect of the ad then the ad is creating experience. And in fact, in the book, I stayed the podcasts or one example of of of something happening in the internet that hasn't yet been corrupted. So I don't have any objection to advertising per se I have objection to advertising that's targeted and creates the content. That's the tail wagging the dog in that's where and you can draw red line of where we're about when that starts to happen. Advertising per se. I actually have a pretty positive assessment of I feel I feel that even though I often find advertising annoying overall it's helped humanity. Learn about modern ity and moves technologies moved and overall. I think that that's been to the good. I think it's helped people adjust in mass to the new possibilities of new products and services, it's been good for us. So I I'm not anti advertising. My ads are probably the least annoying part of the show. And I'm gonna help you keep them that way. By the way, before I forget, I know we're going to dive into a bunch of stuff here but behavioral manipulation and sort of speaking of like, the AI bought sucking up you won't have seen this. But there's this. I don't know what you would even call it. Now, hashtag kind of going around that's called the ten year challenge. And what you do is you take. Oh, you do follow that stuff? Okay. So you take that old photo that's ten years ago. You take place them side by side. And I did that because I thought oh, that's fun. And then somebody was like don't do that. You're the social media companies probably invented this. So that they can improve their aging detection algorithm. And I was like damn that might be true or it's could just be VS conspiracy theory origins, actually, be kind of both, you know, invented by normal person. And now being used for that. So one thing to say is that all it takes a few students here on social media and just listening to them and talking a little bit over coffee once a week. And you're totally up on all the means and everything like, it's really like I feel like I'm as up as hard core user, and it takes me like three minutes week. It's really not hard to keep all you should spend because it doesn't merit more than that. As to whether somebody at Facebook deliberately set this up. I have no idea might they find some use in it after the fact anyway for this. This creepy purpose. Maybe I mean, a a lot of times people doing machine vision research will try to come up with some kind of a social game to get people to say tag Catherine's dogs in order to improve algorithms for cats and dogs. Let me bring up one angle on this certain thing that perhaps your listeners haven't thought about which I think about a lot which is the kinetics of it. Because you've probably heard this trope. Oh, hey, this time it's different than you technology. This time's going to throw you out of work. Even though in the past every time, there is new technology just created new jobs, a is different. Because a I really replace as a person at whatever the job isn't. So then there is no new job. And there aren't convenient jobs running the AI because those are very specialised Matthey. You know, you need a degree from Caltech to doom kind of jobs. Okay. So. Not you in my view. What happens is? In fact, we need data from people to run a I and we currently steel that data through social media. And then tell the people that obsolete like, for instance, with language translation, this is my favorite example. Because I think it's clear the people do language translation half to steal tens of millions of new example phrase translations from bilingual people every single day just to keep up with pop culture. Memes and politics news and all that stuff, and those people are seeing their careers just go away because if the automated translation systems, and they're being told, oh, you'll be obsolete, except we still need them. So all this little data like the tenure challenge when we give a programs data, we're being stolen from and then we're being told RAV sleet, I mean, it's it's a lie at if there's something terribly creepy, and this is sort of a spiritual crime there to tell people. You're worthless. When you're actually needed, I definitely agree. And I look I I don't wanna read a novel translated by Google translate from German to English. It's going to be a little rough right? Google algorithm points want you to read a novel at once you to watch when video and then another another recommends until it turns into some really horrible. You know, creepy paranoid irritability enhancing stupid video from somewhere. That's what that's what YouTube appears to want taste. Yes. Some sort of lock work orange scenario. Yeah. So all right argument. Number one social media community late your behavior in it puts your free will under threat. And what you said in the book is we're in a cage, we're being watched manipulated and analysed while inside this cage. Now, a lot of people are gonna go. Okay. You sort of explained why? But I I get it fee. The we're feeding the algorithm and Kaifu Lee came in here before when it was talking about how China's gonna win because they have more data. Because of course, they have more people in there really in there up in their business. So to speak, but how're algorithms actually predicting behavior? What how is this? How is how is this algorithm? Taking like seemingly a relevant data and in. How is this making something that that can hurt us? It's it's just a boatload of statistics laid on top of a structure that sometimes called neural nets where you have a whole bunch of little place keepers for intermediate results of those statistics that are related to one another, and it's not that hard to understand. But it's very rarely explained. And I don't think I can do it with audio alone share. But let me give you an example of how it works. Let's mentioning over thermostat in the thermostat crumbs off and on his temperature moves, and then you say wait, I want to turn the thermostat to be different. If a person's in the room. So suddenly like, there's this other thing that's measuring it for persons in the room or not in its related. So you can think of that as being like two neurons, then you add an ad and add to that. And if you build systems like that, they can start to discriminate more and more and more different situations and act accordingly and eventually you can get them to recognize whether pictures a cat or dog. But it's really just an accumulation of that same principle of compounding, a whole lot of little things and they build up in layers of little accumulators minute. Perspective keepers, you might say. And so the thing about this is that they're sort of stupid. If you look at what any one of them knows it has nothing to do with what the whole achieves collectively. So in the in a social case, there might be one of them. That's looking at everybody who likes the flavor cherry and do they core? Does that correlate with them having blonde hair, and it might be only so in certain regions, and it might be just this weird thing? It means nothing. But then if it turns out that all those blonde haired cherry liking, people responded to a certain Adna certain way, then the q. Emulators will find the correlation than somehow by magic that similar ad will go to other people who share those qualities see you end up with this sort of quality, bingo for humans, you end up with this statistical way of classifying people according to random stuff, and there's no real science at the bottom of it. We don't know why these correlations exist, but statistics is real. And so you tend to start to be able to manipulate people just through being able to experiments on hundreds of millions or billions of people at once you'll find these correlations that actually work on people. And they're few cases were social scientists get to work at Facebook and try to untangle what's really going on. But for the most part it just happens in this way. That's completely blind. And yet it works. You're listening to the Jordan harbinger show with our guest. Jaron lanier? We'll be right back after this. 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And then they don't like green when they see green in an ad it, they click on it very few. They haven't aversion road. And then we then we surround a political candidate in green when we show it to those people, and then they don't like that person anymore. Is that over simplification or not really I mean, in a way the ridiculousness that comes out in. That example, is is good because it is kind of ridiculous. It's just these little things and through a multitude of tests, blindly, the algorithms just discover what works a lot of it. It might be to do with colour. It might be to do with timing. It might be to do with. How many other messages you mix in before you get to the when you care about it might be just the whole world of things. I mean, they're the. There's a a nobody's ever cataloged all this. And and the thing is it's not transparent, and it's impossible to really know. What's being done t I think the most important result? That's come out of the research in this area. Particularly the research published by the companies themselves like Facebook zone papers is that when faced with proves it can make people sad. Or when Facebook proves it can repressive vote, or you know, these are things it's published as scientific papers, the people couldn't have pulled that they that. It was happening to them nobody ever detected it, and I think that's the main thing to get out of this is that when you use this weird indirect statistical technique. There's a certain creepy nece to it because you can't know about it in the old days when people used to get paranoid about advertising are there subliminal messages. At least you knew you were looking at an ad at least, you know, you could just like not look at the ad or something, but in these systems because you don't even know where the lines of attack. Are you don't know where the lines are drawn like right now as we're talking we know this is not an ad, right? And that is something. This isn't. Calculated. This is actual reality. This is just me talking with you agree with me or not. But online, you know, in this it once you're dealing with these manipulation algorithms, particularly from Google and Facebook, you're in this world where you don't know. What's being done to you? Yeah. It's a little scary. I mean, and they sell our information where the product not the client, which I think is a little scary people, always go. I someone telling the other day. I don't understand why I can't get my Instagram back. It got blocked, and you know, their customer services terrible. And I was like, oh, I think their customer services great. You're just not one of their customers. Yeah. That's exactly right. Yeah. You're not when people think their customer these companies, if you're not paying them, you're not a customer, right? Yeah. You know what? I mean. It's really simple. If you want them to pay attention to you by two million dollars a year with advertising, and I'm sure that someone will call you back and figure out how to solve your problem. Yeah. I don't know what that threshold is. I don't know if it's two million. I have no idea. Yeah. It'd be less, and it's actually. Yeah. It really it really probably depends on the medium. And I don't know if that's a whole different kind. Question, but we're not being tracked by name supposedly. But it doesn't really matter. Right because we're being lumped into these little boxes it kind of center. That's really strange thing. That's one of the reasons why I'm not sure that privacy is threat way to think about this. Because if you say like in the the European new laws that GDP are well, your particular like your name your address, we're going to cover that stuff. But the thing is this whole world of correlations just routes around that like if it can just figure out that your the person with dreadlocks who has a blue phone case in it for whatever it is. You know, lives in Berkeley. Like, it ima sense. Once you do enough of that stuff. That's actually better than having this specific name, and you can always drive the name. Anyway, I mean that's been shown again, and again, and again, so privacy per se is probably not really even a useful way to slice this. Yeah. Kind of doesn't matter. If someone knows you're addressing your name. If they know you're I caller how often you get your haircut. What time you wake up in the morning, the type of coffee and clothing that you buy in the area where you live. Yeah. Ultimately, identity is a collection of quantities even more deeply than it is a particular address or name. And if they have that it's even better. So yeah, I that's why the approach I've owes take into this is that we need to change the business model completely if we want to fix this, otherwise it'll just be switching slightly between flavors of hell until we finally realized we just cannot afford to do this anymore. If we want to survive, and of course, the simple answer is stop using it. But the problem is social media's designed to be addictive. And we know was it, Sean. Parker who said something like, yeah. We're actually messing with your dopamine response with like we're doing that on purpose. Yeah. Sean, Sean said that in the last few years now, here's the weird thing. I knew Sean back in the day when he was the first president of Facebook. And I really don't think he was thinking that way at that time. I think they were still kind of idealistic and thought they were doing this great thing for the world. There was a lot of ego. They were there was a lot of mania. But I don't feel that they were like trying to be evil. And I sometimes wonder if maybe he's misery membrane in thinking that they have this whole evil plan in order to cast himself as like this evil bond villain because that'd be really glamorous. I don't know. I mean, he should have seen as like type of guy who'd be like, you know, let me lean into this. I already got played by Justin Timberlake in that movie. So I said it's an order to go. But like, yeah. Like, maybe being the bad guys and so bad. I I don't know. I haven't talked to him in years. I I don't know where he's coming from right now. But at any rate at this time, he saying they didn't know what they were doing and that it was deliberate. Can you explain how it and you call these systems bummer in the book? Yeah. Explain how it focuses us on being addicted to likes views, followers, and things behavior of users made into an empire for rent. But I missing when m and there I just need to come up with some name for it the business model happened as I said because we wanted to have the feeling of socialism, but also have the romance of capitalism, and this added paradigm was the way to get both things at once. And then that was when it was just low tech and just barely beginning. And it was cute, but it's morphed into this horrible thing. I don't think the idea of connecting with people online is inherently bad, otherwise, what would I be doing with my life? I've devoted myself to making that work. Right. And as I say, I think there are. Samples podcast. I've mentioned to hear podcasts get up, and I could mention any other where I think people connect over networks in a way that's positive and doesn't have this kind of weird darkness in manipulation in this this kind of negativity, right? And even within Facebook and Twitter and so forth. You there are very substantial numbers of people have positive experiences. Right. It's it's it's a statistical distribution here. This is a your milk, Irv. I making. And so so I'm not denying the positivity that a lot of people experience on fortunately, we know for many measures at their experiences, a typical and there's more negatively, but in theory, you could have a really positive thing similar to Facebook. In fact, there were some early ones that were more positive in theory should have something similar to YouTube. That's much more positive. And in fact, I think we do net. Netflix is not perfect. But it's better. It's it's a different sort of thing. But the net flicks is addictive just asked my wife, but I I love net flex, but the differences I'm paying for it. So they don't have really have their Evan incentive to keep me there by making great stuff. They don't need to like trick me into giving out. All this details. I suppose there's a little bit of stupid paranoid neared ability to inducing stuff on Netflix or some weird conspiracy movies earned stuff, but it's not dominant. It doesn't you don't automats go there in the way, you do if you fall. Oh, the advice that YouTube algorithms give you, and I think Netflix is instructive because there used to be a time when nobody felt they've ever pay for video because we could get video for free on torrents and everything was going to be volunteer from there on out there. We would kill capitalism from media that was like a dearly held universal passionate mainstream belief in the internet world at a certain point. And Netflix proves hey, you know, what we can't pay for this stuff. If we if they give us something that's worth paying for. It's not that bad. It can. And I think this idea of peak TV that's happened since we started paying directly for TV instead of waiting for advertisers to to support something we want to see this this this connections the audience. It's perfect. I don't love everything I met flicked, sir. Amazon prime whatever. But it's better. Right. And I keep when imagining what would peak social media be like what would peak? Search be like. Can I I imagine these things as taking the parts of the services that are currently positive, but just amplifying them and getting rid of all the creepy crap. I think a lot of people do exhibit some addict behavior on social media, though to your point. I mean, in fact, I think you gave a couple examples of social media kinda becoming the new cigarettes where it's a looked at as a little bit as a vice, and I would agree with that too. It into an extent. Well, the comparison to cigarettes is interesting to me in a way that I wanna spend positively okay because we have some examples in our past of massive dictionaries with commercial connections that we nonetheless were able to address in a reasonable way. So with cigarettes for generations through the twentieth century. The secret was the cool thing and being anti cigarette. Made us some kind of unsexy fuddy duddy and everybody smoked whether it was a businessman or the punk. Everybody was smoking because that was the cool sexy thing and then somehow enough. People that out of that addiction mold just to be able to look at it and say man, this has got to be the stupidest thing ever. Why should we condemn a bunch of kids to get lung cancer over the stupid thing? Like, and we didn't make it illegal. We're not throwing people in jail. We ended up doing with marijuana. We just said, hey, you know, we'll keep you out of public places. We'll do things like that made a huge difference. So I think we need our another one is whether it's against drunk drivers addiction system tighter commercial interest. None the less there enough people who are able to dress it. And so the fact that those movements happened a gambling another one which is technically gambling addiction technically much more similar than chemical addictions to social media diction. And so in all of those cases, we record we recognized that this industry is leading us to ruination, and we need to find some way to steer doesn't. We don't have to go to extremes. We just need to steer. And in this case. I don't think we need to ban social media. I don't wanna kill Facebook. I just want to reform it by changing its business model, and I think that could be positive everybody will be positive for shareholders and fort Caesar's, or at least we got try it. If you see something that's just getting worse and worse, and nothing you try helps it why not try something different. Yeah. I I can understand that. And I think one of your other arguments, which is that social media contributes to this mass production of misinformation that was something not necessarily new for me. Because of course, we've seen journalism and turn into click bait articles, right? We've seen a lot of people make headlines that are just completely ridiculous to the point where when you open the article, you're actually annoyed at the journalists and the outlet for having tricked you into reading something that is clearly just complete malarkey, right and mislabeled, but it goes beyond that. Now, there's fake people literally fake people that contribute to even fellow smart or intelligent people. Making worse decisions. Can you take us through that sort of process because I think you realize that we think click bait whatever I ignore it. It's not that anymore. Now, you're getting opinions from people that don't exist. Right. Right. So this is what I was talking earlier about social perception. And so I write books, and can you just say something? Yes. I write books. I do pretty well on it. I've had bestsellers I've had SOLER some countries. I have a public life. I have no social media like your life doesn't end. If you don't have social media, you can still be public thinker, whatever it works. You know? But the thing is because I write books and then pretty visible. I get contacted by these people are trying to sell me fake people all the time. And so what happens somebody will call you. And it's it or they'll they'll right, Hugh. They'll say, I have a business proposition, you know, and I have created hordes of fake people for so. And so, and so, and so, and so, and so all these all these people, and it it it doesn't cost that much, and you could buy tons of fake people on Twitter, you can buy tons of people. Facebook and it takes a while to figure it out. So they will try to get rid of them. But only gradually and you can keep on adding more fakes and then with those fake people. Do they don't necessarily communicate directly with any real human? All they do is they top ratings and views and so forth to buy the algorithm to push a particular thing, that's what they're for. And then they create fake social perception. So that what you see seems to reflect other people around you being interested in something which on a very deep level speaks tune. It's like to be connected to my world. I will respond to what the people around me responding to. But they're Faye. You know? Right. And so I I am one of the reasons I want to see things more monetize more like Netflix is that you can make a million people on Facebook, pretty cheaply. It's not that hard. They cobbled together bits of real information from various real people and just we combine them to make fake people. But you can't make a million credit card accounts. You know, you just can't do it. So there aren't millions of fake. Users of Netflix. You know, there just aren't there? There aren't millions of fake people on the apple store. There aren't I it just can't be done. And so as soon as people have skin in the game, all of a sudden, they get more real. And I know there's some people are going to be listening to but what about the poor? And yes, we must address that. But I have to point out that the current system is destroying the poor. When you look at things like the Rohingya crisis in which the most vulnerable people are being attacked and destroyed by this very system of manipulation. And this is happening all over the world in an iky, give many examples of this. We can't say that this system is good for people who were vulnerable or poor horrifying for them. Can you tell us what's going on with it because I'm familiar with the Rohingya crisis? But I don't think everyone is can you tell us how what what that is in what role social media played in this one of the easiest things to do in social media is to inject fit contact through fake Kibo that creates a sense of paranoia and irritability directed at some grew. Okay. Now, why is easy? The reason why is that the algorithms that you're trying to influence with all your fake people a half to pick up on some kind of arise from those who are targeted right and the emotions that people display reactions to the are the easiest to test for and a rise was quickly are the startling motions. Fighter flight, emotions and so- fighter. Flight can translate into a fear and rage. But in the more diffuse world of social media. It's paranoia, endured ability. Right. So these are the highest value emotional targets that you can go for you can put fake people into Facebook too. Make population more racist less likely to vote perhaps more upset more angry. But you can't do the reverse. He can't as easily make them kinder. You can't make them more ready to support minorities or vulnerable people. You can do it a little bit and bubbles but not overall. And in fact, the people who do temporarily get a positive effect are ultimately feeding the evil here in a way, they don't realize as an example in the US. Let's say you're the black lives matter movement. So black lives matter starts as a sort of a social media thing. Right hashtag. And and so on on the different platforms and feels good feels like it's getting somewhere. It's it's one that I felt very good about and supported. But the thing is that's just data fuel going into the system. The algorithms don't care. They don't care at all. So the algorithms take any information that was uploaded by black lives matter and their feeding it all over the place rand. And people to see who they get an effect from because what they want is a rise that they can then use to further addiction and behavior mod because that's all they do an emotional rise outta people an emotional or behavior pattern change. Okay. So it's not like there's a when I say emotion, we don't even know what emotion is in the brain. Exactly. But with they're looking for is a measurable change in behavior pattern, which we can do and then that's correlated with emotions. So what happens is the people who are the these horrible people hate who are racist and stuff get more immediately detective moved by black lives matter than the original people. So the negative people get detective they get introduced to each other. They get reinforced. And so all of a sudden, you have this this resurgent KKK and Neo Nazi movement in the US at had been really dormant in isolated and fragmented before Furthermore bad actors can detect that that's happening through the. System. And then they can start feeding it because it's in their interest as well. If somebody's trying to destabilize the society. So then what starts out his black lives matter as a positive thing. At least in my judgment turns into a bigger negative result. And I think you see this. Whenever somebody tries to do positive social change with social media gets flipped around. Eventually the most dramatic one was initially effective use of social media platforms for the spring training into the even more devastating use by groups like ISIS interesting. Right. So air ABS spring getting people together in these countries be getting them able to communicate them realizing they're not this insular group that hates get off or whatever they can all kind of coagulate into a revolution. And then on the flip side, you've got ISIS going great. We can reach out to these isolated feeling kids in the UK the US who feel like they're getting picked on and turn them into holy warriors. If they just blow themselves up, but the thing is the the system finds the. The people who were annoyed in the first place like it's an ear to -bility detector and enhancer getting to the hinge Rohingyas, this is a Muslim minority in Myanmar. And whenever you have something like that. If you have interests that you think you want to do the classic fascist move of saying I'm going to get the population to support me by turning on one part of itself. And and and oppressing a minority. And we'll there's this thing that happens where unsocial media nothing means anything anymore. Everything just turns into Mason hashtags. Like, what does it mean to be a conservative in the Trump era? The actual ideas or policies are all over the place. They're nothing related to the traditional bundle of conservative ideas. Trade is now the opposite of what it was immigrations opposite of what it was. Everything's different personal behavior standards. The opposite of what they went swear everything's different. But the thing is when everything turns into this sort of context list hashtag competition for. Who can be the most irritable. All that's left is some kind of very rotten simplistic idea of density, like this artificial idea we have of race or maybe of blood and soil, you know, and so the traditional fascism that used to be thoughtless has found a new ground in this new kind of thoughtlessness so people now have this new high tech way of getting powerful and getting promoting their own personality cults in their own new centralized authority by by promoting this weird xenofobia, phobia racism, and that's why we see this all over the world at once in countries where it hadn't been present in countries with nothing else in common at all. It's the only explanation for why both Sweden and Brazil would have this happening at the same time. This makes sense. Yeah. And of course, the Rohingya in Burma or Mehan mar- they were living essentially on the border of is it Bangladesh or yeah. Yeah. And now, there's they're essentially fake news on Facebook. I believe was being pushed to the. Locals around. They're saying these people are causing trouble. They're trying to do. I don't even remember what the accusation was, you know, since I'm Jewish. I can tell you that there have been things like this for a long time. We we call it the blood libel where you come up with these crazy stories, oh, they're making they're taking the blood of Christian kids to make their food or something. And this kind of thing has existed for a long time. But it just hasn't been technologically optimized it hasn't been this thing that could happen so quickly. And there wasn't a direct commercial motivation behind it. And it wasn't being run by the biggest US companies out of Silicon Valley right here where we live in this beautiful area. Like, this development is a a spiritual disaster. It's a profound embarrassment and a in like this tragedy in the tech world. Yeah. So these these were hanging out population is essentially been forced to flee because people are coming in. That's right. It was the blood libel. It with something. Like, they're killing a bunch of local babies are. Yeah. It's a it's a it's a sort of. 'cause to to spread these things the stupider and weirder. The better, you know, and it's not just through hangings others similar scenarios in rural parts of India in parts of Africa. And of course, the rise of of this weird Neo Nazi a cave phenomena in the US and in Europe, the rise of his neo-nazi parties, and you can say, well, it's because of the immigration crisis there. But once again, it even happens in parts of Europe where there isn't really an immigration crisis. There might be a a sensor fear of one it correlates to the rival Facebook more than two other events in the way that the reason this works so well as because negative emotions are essentially, the lifeblood of of social media in a lotta ways it, well, they're just the more negative emotions are kind of like the high octane ones. Like, if you go to the guest, you know, you can get this more powerful gas and the negative emotions they rise faster. They're easier to detect in the overall scheme of human life. If you look at the study. The of what kinds of feedback influence behavior? There's a parody between what you call negative and positive emotions. If you can accept that grouping which requires a bit of a leap of faith, admittedly. But I it's not so much negativity drives humanity. It's just that in this particular. It's a little bit like speed trading. When you have these automated systems that are just trying to pick up quickly on how people respond in that context. Negativities more powerful. So making us feel bad contributes to our use of the platform because essentially we get triggered by something. Well, this is a weird thing about behavioral addiction. I don't know if you've ever had a friend who had a gambling addiction. I'm sure that. I have I'm trying to think of one that actually told me about it might be a different story. But yeah, it's not great. It's and I mean, we've all had friends with addictions and most of us, if we're honest have had addictions ourselves this as part of the human experience. People have gambling addictions are sure that they're different. They have the special system. They have luck. They have real luck. They're sure that there. The exception. But the interesting thing to me about it is that what they're dicta to isn't that moment when they win but to this whole cycle when they're usually losing. This is something I've noticed in people have heroin addiction of of whom I've known more than a few being a musician and the through the seventy eighties nineties and people who have a heroin problem are hooked on this whole experience where most of the time, it's horrible. And then there's these moments of ecstasy. And so things you become hooked on this whole experience and social media addicts become hooked on this whole cycle where most of the time they're getting punished and every once in a while they get this reward. And I believe this is why some of the most prominent social media addicts deliberately seemed to say stupid things that will humiliate them online because they want that punishment is part of the cycle. That's interesting. So all this controversy that them getting beat up in the media people thinking, they're an idiot. You feel like that's part of their addicted behavior. Yeah. Well, I think about Nealon musk calling dive repetitive. Faial out of the blue. What's he doing? He's got a terrible addiction problem. And it's to the point where, you know, people in his company investors of said get off, you know. And why would he do that? While he's doing it because he's addicted to that whole cycle most, and he needs he needs to be punished for part of it. Our current president. I see the same pattern in. I see it in Konya. A lot of the people who sort of degrade themselves in public who would seem to be skillful intelligent people who've built successful careers, and yet do this ridiculous thing that's their addiction. And Furthermore here this there's something else. Interesting about this in the past the powerful male persona in the world. Had mystique and mystique is this mystery where you don't let your vulnerability show, but they don't have that. Yeah. I don't particularly. But the thing is they traditionally did, you know, if you think about, oh, I don't know Marlon Brando. And I e what would ever a Ronald Reagan? There's this persona, and it's it might be very nice in some cases. But there's always like, you don't really know. What would what would take them off? They're they're not announcing it these new ones who acting like crybabies what's going on. How does it work? Why do people like seeing somebody who's humiliating himself all the time like Trump? And I think the reason why the all the social media addicts out there see themselves in it. So they relate he had. Maybe there might be something to that. And I think also is there an element of in. This is just the sort of like a harebrained thing on my end. But I sort of picked us up over Christmas a lot of advertising just seems you know, what? Now that I think about I've noticed a lot of advertising to me seems designed to make me feel like kind of like, yeah foam. Oh, I need this. I feel bad have it. I'm. Positioned as such I am less then for not having been a part of this. And it's not just items that I need to buy. It's now it's everything it's like experiences whether or not it's even for sale it's like part of the platform is to just make he'll less than well. Like, I say, I think traditional advertising was often annoying and often went over some sort of a line for me being too manipulative. But overall, I think it served the purpose of civilization and betterment just because it helped maternity move along and things actually have gotten better with maternity. So when you have these individualized feeds at a calculated to manipulate you I really do think it's something entirely different. I think you when you're being made to feel bad just as part of the diction process, and it's not it's not even about getting that new car anymore. And in fact, there's a sort of an arms race where if everybody's trying to manipulate you you, you know, everybody feels that they're blackmailed into paying an existential tax to Facebook. Because otherwise the other people manipulate you there's a kind of parody that arises. And so I think it really takes off on its own and just becomes part of this other weird religion of feeling that the central server must be the new God. Or the new the new king that runs everything. And there's another part of it. We haven't talked about which is a lot of the people who run these things think they're building the new AI that'll take over and replace humans. And so there's there's that religion as well. But it takes on this very strange well-meant Amman its own back to the social media making all of us triggered and emotional. I feel this to whenever I'm online. I I often have to check myself because someone will say, hey, I didn't like this one minute thing. And if they had told me that in person I'd been like, oh, thanks for the feedback. I've been like whatever. But if it's done on Twitter. Or in the wrong way in an Email man at n-, not as much or face. I will catch myself being a horrible person. Yeah. That's accurate. And so this is interesting. I haven't talked about this that way that people turn into assholes online that predates this advertising model and talking about. And in fact, if somebody wanted to argue against me, they say, hey, there was this thing even before this stuff, and they'd be correct about that. And in my view, what happened is the advertising model kind of merged with this other thing that was going on where people were making themselves into assholes and that weird asshole making things started early. I mean that was we already knew that that could happen back even in the late seventies certainly in the eighties with a really really early. Prototypes of social networking that was happening. And in fact, I decided to to to cut out of that world back then because I did like what it was doing to me. So there is something very powerful there. And it's been studied law. There's been a whole lot of people working on exa-. Exactly why it is. What's this asshole? Making thing. I present some wild theories in the book. I don't think we totally understand it on a sleigh. But it's it it. It's definitely something. That's intrinsically there. Even in something like two straight Email. It was always there. It's pack behavior at some level. I'm sure yeah. That's my theory that it's it's turning you from lone wolf into a pack will yet from a lone wolf into a pack wolf. So you change from being primarily, a scientists into be being primarily political, and that's maybe sending cryptic. But that that's my theory about it in the buck. You do you say if triggering emotions is the highest prize and negative emotions are easier to trigger. How could social media not make you sad? If your consumption of content is tailored by near limitless observations harvested about people like you, how could your universe not collapse into the partial depiction of reality that people like you also enjoy and that's a little kind of a bummer right because. Well, I mean. Wow. Like, it's optimizing for making us feel bad. So that we engage more into further addition. It's like, ugh. Oh my gosh. I need a shower. We'll look quitting that hard people. Do it. There have been studies of people who've quit that follow them after they've quit. And by the quitting means really quitting like deleting there from your phone doesn't actually delete the surveillance, and it doesn't it doesn't change the effect on you because there's so many tendrils by which these manipulation machines affect things that you see it might still affect what you see on your on the new site you like, for instance, shoot. So we don't even think about that. You have to unplug and tally Renate in there. Yeah. Yeah. You have to delete. And it's it's not that hard. And you can I don't want to promote anybody's particular thing. But you can get privacy oriented, browsing extensions or whole browsers. You can you can turn off out of feed on YouTube, and you can use YouTube without a Google account at all anywhere. So that it doesn't. Who you are. You can do these things and suddenly the the manipulation machine is at least subdued and everyone does that reports that their lives get better. They get better informed more quickly. They feel happier. They have better relationships. I mean, and I just don't think this is even ambiguous. It really seems to help people with the exception of those who really have a special need that suggests by the technology. The example, I use in the book is people with unusual medical conditions who have found each other through a particular platform by all means like if it's doing something special for you don't change on my account, you know, like use it if it's really working for you. But for the average person who thinks that their immune to all this stuff. And just I I mean, I run into journal all the types. Yo you just don't get it Twitter's just funny. And it's like, yes. Like my gambling friends saying, oh, you just don't get it. I'm lucky like, you know, like year, it's hard to cut through diction. All we need is a tiny minority of people to break the stuff in order to have a community that can talk about it. So that we can talk about it from outside of its own addiction system. That's what we need is a society. Yeah. We'll talk about how bad Twitter, Google and Facebook are on we chat. Xiaoping can take a look at it. But I I love your rule of thumb about which platforms are bad for you. And why would you take us through that? Because you'll probably state it better than I can. Well. What makes it platform bad? Is that it's optimized for third parties who are paying out of a belief that they can change your behavior the way to test. If it's really bad is if bad actors have made a practice of using it so was Putin. They're it putting use it to influence some poor countries election or our country's elections. Right. Still debating that. Right. So if you use that criteria, the really bad ones are the various Facebook platforms, including Instagram what's up, Facebook messenger and normal Facebook Twitter, which and it hurts me to include Twitter, because I I know the Twitter people, and I like them, and I to me Twitter is a great tragedy. It's like ruining the world and not even a solid business. You know, like, I mean, it's it's like it's awful not all of Google, but certainly the YouTube part of Google and a lot of the search experience, although you can adjust the search experience through enough very careful blocking of cookies and not having an. Count and all that to make it cleaner. It's possible. Then there's others that are sort of integrase on Oso. Also, very very, sadly, a lot of the sort of online forum world and things for people connect in lesser known forms is is very compromised, and you see this especially in any of the places where gamers congregate because there should've young men a lot of the bad actors really focused on them. So you have a lot of this happening to read it, for instance. So that's another those, unfortunately bad once again, it hurts me to say that kiss. I think I'm old enough to know when those were started they were started with tremendous e idealism and optimism, and it's it's a horrible thing to have to say they've become this bad. And there's some that are kind of like teetering on this heads like snap. Some things have happened on it. But not as bad since I have a connection to Microsoft. I don't want to toot the Microsoft thing because they don't feel that can be credible. I have to I think whenever you have a social network where people have some kind of skin in the game something at stake other than mind games. All of a sudden, they're bitter angels come out, and you see that in kit hub at maybe a little in Lincoln. I was gonna say linked in because. Yeah, you go there, and you kind of think this is sort of for my job. Maybe I shouldn't jump down people's throats or like post something completely asinine here. If you're going to be kind compassionate responsible in any environment. Part of the reason you are is because it's based on enlightened self interest that when you make a better world. That's also your better world. And if you have no skin at all in a game. If you're just like this anonymous ghost from your point of view, of course, from the manipulation machines when if you they know all about you, and they're manipulating you. But if you're pretending you're just this anonymous ghost, and nobody knows who you are. You don't have skin in the game. And you lose the opportunity for that enlightened self interest. And so when you do have something you care about like your career and linked in or your code on get hub. And I can't give you some other examples. It doesn't make things perfect. They'll still be annoyances people will still sometimes. Jerks. People will not be perfect. But it doesn't become this dark pit of endless. You know, degradation. It's not that bad anymore. I read that you're an optimist, but our conversation here might not signal that to everyone tell us why. And how you see the bright side of all this the solution in all of this. Well, there are a few things one thing is that if you look at history you see our deer species making through tight squeezes in difficult times. And so that leads to optimism that it's something we can do. Now. What's different now? We're facing a bunch of them at once. We're making ourselves insane. With the stupid communications technology at the same time we have to face climate change. And when you have combined challenges, maybe that increases the odds that this time, we won't make it, and they're they're coming on fast and furious, and that's bad. But still we have an incredible track record of survival through all kinds of things, you know, many of them brought on by. Logical chains that gives me a sort of a imperial baseline for optimism. Then another thing is I really like some of the young communities and tech like I'll give you an example in the blockchain world. So I used to be so cynical about blockchain if he'd interviewed me a couple years ago. It would have been like, oh, it's a bunch of get rich quick scammers. They want to make the largest possible carbon footprint for their security. So they're willing to destroy the earth just to feel more secure, and plus it's fake security 'cause you're making this mathematically perfect security than at the edges of it. That's where people will scam which happened a lot with with bitcoin exchanges and stuff. So I just thought the whole thing was stupid. But now that it's gotten shaking out a bit by by coins, losing value. The people who are left after that, it are this really large substantial technically dept and really optimistic and interesting new generation of techies who wanted to good for the world. And I think they're learning lessons from how earlier generations like ours screwed it up, and they give me often ISM. I look at them. And I'm thinking. Yeah. There is a future here. I obviously it's going to be featured generations, it's going to be unpeopled who fix this. And I think I'm seeing signs of great intelligence and warmth in good intent there, I see engineers and managers at the big tech companies organizing protesting taking risks for their own careers because they want a better world that wasn't true few years ago. That's something new, and I think in radidly valuable, incredibly heartening. So I'm actually kind of mystic right now. Karen, thank you so much. It's been really interesting, by the way, I heard you have like fifteen hundred rare instruments or maybe they're not all rare. But well, I all right. So we were talking before about how everybody has a diction, right? Addicted to youths. I heard this weird thing, my mom taught me music, and then she died when I was little, and I somehow this connection to her playing music, but I the form it took us does need to be learning a new instrument because it was learning from her that was really my connection. And so I've just ended up learning one instrument after another and at this stage in my life. That means I really do have a lot of instruments, and I've a lot are from different periods in history in different parts of the world. And I've studied music all parts of the world. Oh is learning new? And it's just this weird obsession, and yeah, we we live in a forest of unusual instruments. Can you play each one? Or are there? Some where you're just like, hey, this is kind of out there. I can play the vast majority of them there some that I got up to speed on. And then just lost completely because it would have required too, much ongoing work to stay. But I I seem to have an ability to at least played decently instruments. I haven't touched in a while. If I got to a certain point before it doesn't mean, I'm. Tros on everything. But I'm if I may say, so I'm actually pretty good on a lot of them. What's the strangest instrument that people would just say how is that an instrument like, you know, we've heard of like glass shapes being played or like, a friend of mine made a documentary about people playing roots in like the jungle will the glass harmonica, which was invented by one of our founders Benjamin Franklin this the spinning wonderful little glass bowls. He can move your fingers on this theory all sound. So the these bowls spin and you just put your fingers on the edge of the bowl. Yeah. And you play like a keyboard, very carefully Benjamin Franklin invented it. When he was doing what was in those days kind of for in, you know, manipulation and stuff on behalf of the Americans are revolution in France. And he here's somebody playing a bunch of wine glasses up the way, you know, you can play one glasses by renting your finger along the edge any. CD of training them on end. So they could all spin at the same time. And then playing it like keyboard, and there's so much to say about this. And you have that at home. I could play that. That's not that rare. But yeah, sure, no, everybody has to play Glasser Monica. You kidding? The initial sound. It's very haunting beautiful sound. There was unlike anything people had heard at that time. And it was there was a psychologist who is interested in hypnotism, and and in subconscious effects, and how people could enter different states of mind is the same as MS Moore. And he used to put. Messmer that can't be a coincidence. No, that's where MS Moore hasn't comes from GAC and his technique to MS Moore is was the glass harmonica. And then Franklin met a young woman who is blind who became a virtuoso on it. And then she traveled she toured Europe playing them and that inspired Mozart and Beethoven to write for them. But the problem is at the early glass was leaded in. So it made people crazy. So the glass are Monica players got this reputation for being really nut. So in wild way to the lead would seep through the glass, here's your fingers. Yeah. Played and you'd go rained. So he brought one back to Philadelphia over the ocean. And he played it to wake up his wife. And she thought she died because it was so unlike anything inexperience he initially thought it must be something from the afterlife. And I'll tell you one other story about it. I have an early manual for players. And when it focuses on is which water from which wells throughout the United States is adequate because the water composition is really important. Oh, there's water in the glass. Oh, yeah. You have to dip your there's little you dip, your your fingers on both to keep them with to make it easier to hug, that's so. And it depends. They say it's depends on the water. Yeah. It does it does you have to really think about that. So these days we can add stuff to the water. But in those days it was about which will. Wow. That is totally unusual. So that's not that. No, that's mainstream. You don't even know. Oh my God. It's the kookiest thing in the house. Thank you. Oh my God. I wish we were doing it up there. And I could play these for you on my guy for sure the pin. PS pretty good. This is what does that played by people who live in the hills in between Thailand and Myanmar. And it's imagine if he will a sort of a long, stick and across piece on it. And then there's strings strung across it in such a way that the strings hook against each other. And when you pull in a string, it implements this weird interaction between all of these things. That are connected, which is similar to what anybody who's into synthesizers would knows a ring modulator? This thing is connected to half coconut or carved out piece of hardware that you hold against your heart. And then you start playing it, and it's a courting instrument. And so what it is your chest cavity amplifies it. So the so the this was a very serious hetero kind of culture is so far as I know anyway. So then as was holding me, then the woman can hear your. Heart would in the literal sense. Well, and so you play this thing. And so the they're these little bronze tips where all the strings connect. And it turns out that for hundreds of years. Nobody has been able to make bronze tips that sound good as the really old ones that survive. It's kind of like our problem with stratovarius if you believe that's a real profile. And so when I was there, I, you know, you compare the old tips to the tips, and there's something different. It's something about the brass or something about the casting or something. So I made a deal with some of them that I brought them and gave them a digital recording studio in exchange for brass tips. I have a have an old one, and I was so excited and I flew back to New York, whereas living very very close to the to the bottom tip of New York City in a beautiful loft at that time. And I got up in the morning having gotten in very late last night ready to put my pin Pia together. And it was September eleventh. Oh, wow. And my loft collapsed in a lot of broken and. Yeah, but the pin Pia, and that particular when given its history and still I've never gotten into work as well as I heard in the jungle, but that's a pretty amazing wonderful astonishing instrument this one of the nicest traditions that secure. I guess that's all I got man. Ken wants to come in. And I know wherever I was just curious because I was like fifteen hundred instruments, you gotta have something crazy more than you'd believe. Yeah. I can only imagine. Jason this is your recommendation. I think this is a really good show. Good recommendation. Thanks, man. Oh, no problem. And I've been following Jaren for years. I mean, he's one of the founders of VR. So you know, he's been around for a long long time. But now that he's taking on social media in the effects, it has on people in society and our mental wellbeing. I thought we just had to have him on because it's in the zeitgeist right now everybody's talking about this because they keep screwing up they keep screwing up bed. So I'm glad that we could share this with our audience this time. This is fantastic. Yeah. He's really interesting, really smart and interesting guy. And of course, he's got a bunch of books. We'll linked to a few of them in the show notes. You know, he offered next time to let us come over to his house and see his instruments and mess with some of them because he's got fifteen hundred. I know we cover this little in the show fifteen hundred plus instruments, and I think once you get past like five six seven, I just run instruments that I know exist. Yeah. So that's pretty neat. He's he has. House must look like something out of horrors music music addition. But like there's gotta be some cool stuff in there. Yeah. It sounds like it sounds more. Like the the warehouse at the end of raiders of the lost. Ark fifteen. You know that many? Yeah. Yeah. Were they sort of slide it in there? And it's like, yeah. This is a this is here's the didgeridoo from you know, twenty four hundred BC, right? Like that. I'll definitely be flying up. If we get to do another show from his house that sounds awesome. I love old instruments and in rare stuff like that. Just sounds Superfund. Yeah. Definitely I think it'll be like a museum trip. If you wanna know how managed to book all these great people manage my relationships using systems in tiny habits, check out our level. One course which is free over at Jordan, harbinger dot com slash level one. And look, I know you're going to do it later. Sure. You are the problem with kicking the can down the road. You cannot make up for lost time when it comes to relationships networking. This is a mistake. I see very often when people are talking about this stuff with me dig the well before you get thirsty. You can't leverage relationships. Once you need them. It's too late the drills take a few minutes per day. Quick crime, go to Jordan, harbinger dot com slash level. One and get after it. Speaking of building relationships, tell me your number one takeaway here from Jaron Lanier, I'm at Jordan harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. This show is produced in association with podcast one. And this episode was co produced by Jason un-filed to Philip oh and Chen, harbinger, the show notes and worksheets are by Robert Fogerty. I'm your host Jordan, harbinger the fee for the show is that you share it with friends when he finds something useful, which should be in every episode. So please share the show with those you love, and even those you don't lots more in the pipeline. Lot of great stuff coming up in the next few months. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show. So you can live. What you listen. And we'll see you next time. A lot of people ask me which shows I recommend which shows I listened to. And you know, it's funny. The one you feed with a two headed wolf here is one that I find myself recommending often, and you just interviewed. I've got Eric Zimmer. The host of the one you feed, and he recently interviewed Tim pitcher actually interviewed him a long time ago procrastination is a topic that I should look into. But maybe I'll do it tomorrow err. Tell me about this episode yet Tim pitcher was one of the world's leading researchers on procrastination. That's what he does. He's a he's a professor at a university. And he knows more about it than perhaps anybody on earth. And most of us are pretty familiar with procrastination ourselves as a problem that we wrestle with pretty regularly. And so he in this episode gives us lots of great strategies for how we can stop procrastinating and how we can really get on with life. One of the things that he says, that's so important is that procrastination? Is a really we delay our lives by procrastinating. And and when we start to really think about the cost of it we recognize it's big and lots of great tips in this episode to overcome it. If you're looking for the one you feed search for the one you feed in a podcast app. And of course, we'll link to this episode in the show notes as well.
TGIT! (Today's Guest Is Tammy) !!!
"Welcome to too many podcasts the podcast about podcasts. Now podcasting from the SHERP. On Mount Pud Kostya, he's your host Jim podcast. Cher PA welcome to too many podcasts? You can check this show out. My website, Sherp, pollution, dot, com, or on your favorite podcast, which is maybe what you're using right now. Hi, how you doing Jim. The podcast Sherpur here and I'm sure you're wondering. Who's guest today Sherpa? Who's our guest today? Show Pa. Her name is Tammy, and she has a facebook live program, not yet officially a podcast, but when I get the details I will let you go you rebels. No, we need a little positively these days, don't we? So, why don't we make that our? FEM-. It's the week is A. Week Yep positively. That's as good a theme as any and I. Think that her facebook live program will inspire you and her podcast likely will when that gets off, the ground as timmy likes to say Tgi T, and I say he G. I. Audible. That doesn't even make sense, but hey. Let's swing into the commercial. Today's guest is being brought to you by audible, and you can get a free audiobook download and a thirty day free trial at www dot audible trial dot. Slash Sherpa there's over one hundred eighty thousand titles to choose from for your iphone, Android, kindle or MP three player. I write in for a little bit of positivity. Sure you are. Let's take a listen to my conversation with Tammy. Hair rebels on the phone going old school well SORTA old school. We that phones. There's no rotary on these things. Talking to my friends. And after numerous technical difficulties, we have made it ear to the telephone conference room of the Sherpa Xiaowei. And she hosts a facebook live program and soon. A podcast could be filling. The ARIZA five cast. Yeah, so everybody say hello to care me Hey Kevin. How's it going? Hey. That's my little famous point. Phrase right there in my fans love when I say hey hey. I wonder if. We worked more difficulties. We finally got it going. We, congratulate ourselves right, yes. Yes, that was quite a fee, but we accomplished it on proud of. That's right and we'll. We'll take your way for that right. Yes for sure for sure. Okay. What does she when we? Get to know you a little bit. tell you a little bit about yourself. Well I am forty five and I am a mom of fix. And I'm really really into my health and fitness, so I really take care of all of that. And I really have just went through a major transition in live, and so I'm really starting at this point in my life, and that's a big deal when you're forty five. And I actually had a a near death experience. And that's what just kind of spiraled this whole thing into motion. And once I went through that event. It caused me to you. Know question, everything, and just have a whole new mentality on lie, and so my health and my fitness and everything became a priority and just my mental wellbeing spiritual wellbeing. And of course with going through what I'd gone through the biggest thing for me was that I. Now had a mission in life of course I've always been a bone I mean being a mom is the biggest part of my life, and it always has been but up to that point you know I. Really was just focused on being a mom I didn't really have. Have anything for Tammy. per se a mission, and after that event I actually had a mission in life, and that mission was to turn the thing that I went through into a healing journey, and to actually share it with other people because I knew that there were other people that also hurt out there and so I didn't want my pain to be in vain. I decided that very thing. This pain will not be in vain, and I'm going to help if I can just one single person a day. That was the goal. And, so I started doing facebook live on my personal facebook page and people really started resonating with them, and it really started touching people's lives, and I was getting messages, and you know I'm of course, not a counselor or anything in that profession I don't profess to be, but I'm just being real and being me into sharing my personal daily thoughts and the things that. That, I may be encountering in order to help someone else. And while doing that as I, said, it started resonating with many many people and people all over the world, people all over the country people that know me or have never met me and I would start getting messages and people sharing it and getting lots of us, and so it's just been quite a journey. and. It's been very exciting to be able to touch those labs like that I. Get a lot of messages from people that help and so I continue to do that. You know because it was making a difference. That's that's my mission is to help one person every single day. That's the whole thing is just one person you know if there's one person out there that needs me or that needs that message of inspiration of hope. You know to know that they're not. Not alone and that everybody goes through hard times, and sometimes we have the great times, and we can share those as well so that's really my mission is to help one person every single day and not only do I share just like facebook live, but I'm huge into positively because that's what helped me get through so I post things constantly. That are very positive that who I am you know just within myself is a very positive person. You know everybody like a comeback. Zillion, but I guess that's probably what they can relate to new. The I wish that I can do what she's doing right now. What was like the for that? You took? Oh, the first step I took well. There were many I started doing a lot of teams outside of my box. You know I was just like okay. You know I'm going to take you know I'm going to go join a gym. I had not done that I had not ever been at a gym, and so I started with a personal trainer, and it was very different for me. I'd always worked out at home and had great results, because I was determined and dedicated, but then I decided. Decided I can take this to the next level and my health can because there's always room for improvement every day. We can be better than we were yesterday. And so that's something that I've done you know and it's hard when you've never done that. It was so scary to walk into that place with people for so that's how like I. Did a facebook live about that? You know like. Don't be afraid. I was scared to death. But even if you're just keep Goin' and push yourself and go for it, because now it feels amazing when I walk in. People know my name and they're like hey, so good AC- girl like your back so that's just another little small. Audience that I've shared with my friends and followers and fan, but had encouraged them, and they're like Oh. Wow well. If you can do this at forty five, so can I because a lot of times we made that extra little push from somebody. That's real to say oh. Yeah, if she can do it I can do it, and so that's exactly one of the ways that I would say you know have stepped outside of my book, but my. My entire mentality in life actually changed because of that that very traumatic event that I had some other way that I've changed things is I decided to travel, and that would mean traveling alone, and so I took self-defense classes and things like that, so that I like Brazilian Jiu Jitsu branched out and just went into class. These are all big things I'm very petite. person and I was like if I'm going to travel and I'm going. Going to be out there in the world, I need to be able to protect myself and so those are different things that I've done. You know to enable myself to be able to travel and to do those things, so that's a lot of what I've done. Also you know I just would book a flight and go and go to the beach and spend time there. You know that's my happy place. That is the happiest place on Earth for. For me and I just got back from there this weekend. the another way that have stepped outside of the box is to travel alone and just go for that. You know and just spend that time. They're alone and reflecting and looking at my mission, and you know what I want to accomplish in my life. So that's another one of the things I've done. There are so many like I'm night and day like the last several months. A completely different person it's it's exciting when you decide to do something and make a transition like that you know sometimes you're not always given the choice. Sometimes. It's just something that's brought into your path and you have to do that, and so it's nice to be able to share you know the way that I've done that with other people to try to assist them with their journey to. Hear anything that you wish that you could expect to the Tammy from pre death. Experience knowing what you know now. Knowing what I know now, yes, and I'll tell you a little bit about that something. One day you know after that near death experience. I woke up I realized that. Every single day is a gift and you truly do not know if that day is going to be your last day, and so another way that I changed my lifestyle with you. Know I used to always do the same exact things all the time, the same restaurant, the same food you know the same whatever I got would be the same the same dessert, or what have you and I decided you know I, WanNa try everything I can try because this could be my last. Last meal and if it's going to be my last meal I don't want it to be the same. You I've had for fifteen years per. Se I want to try something different, and so I would just get my steak. Totally different way instead of butterflied well-done. You know no pink at all I said well. Let's try maybe well. Let's try medium rare and let's Kinda. See exactly what Tammy really does like, and so now I prefer mistake. Media will instead of well-done, no pink. So it's just amazing how your mentality can change your entire lifestyle, and so I try not to go to the same places I try to branch out and. Most of the time that's alone and there's nothing wrong with that I'm very comfortable being with myself and enjoying life, because if today is the last I have then I'm going to go have that lunch. I want to have or that meal and I don't have to depend on someone to go with me to experience that it gets my last day. I, want to experience it to the fullest. So this is what happened with that I embraced that mentality okay, and when I was working out and I was still working out at home at that point, and it was a Friday morning and I was doing my workout now it's like Oh. It's Friday Tgi. You know that famous little phrase you hear Tgif it's Friday, thank God Friday, and it stopped me in my tracks, and I. Mean Literally I by myself. You know working out. And I was like wait a minute. Why does everybody wait for Friday to be grateful to be so happy to be alive? I was like every day is a gift. That's the mentality. Mentality that I've adopted, and I was like it should be t G. I t thank God. It's today every day that you wake up and so I started thinking like that and I started sharing it I immediately due to facebook, live on it, and shared it with everybody, and they were like I've never heard that in my life, but you're so right. That is very powerful, and that was back in I. Believe November that I first shared that I believe November of twenty nineteen, and I started just hash tagging TGI. It TV it and thank God. It's today and sharing that and people started catching onto it, and it's becoming like a big thing like it's getting out all over social media and I. I have people write me I get hundreds of messages a day. My inbox is so four now can't even go through all of them. Everybody's like Tgi. T you know what a what a wonderful saying. What a wonderful lifestyle and a phrase, and I love it and thank you for giving us that and sharing. Sharing that and I was like it's just. It was a gift to me. You know like God shared it with me that mentality and I embraced it and I I share it everywhere I. Go what I do every day and I actually had like a fan. You know. Send me a a water bottle. And they had it written on there like engraved on their. Thank God, it's Today, so it's really really taking off. And the mentality is so important, and you know Jim I would find myself waking up and thinking what stay. I would have to look at my phone to see if it were Monday or Tuesday or Wednesday because I honestly wouldn't even know. I really really live that life where it's just today. I'm not concerned of what day of the week is. It's a gift and it's today, and so that is my thing that is not mission to share that. And to help people grasp that and to embrace that lifestyle and treasure that day that we are given because it truly can be our last. Just a huge part of my heart is to share that vision and that with people. It's kind of in step with what you're saying. Taking something that you're doing every day and looking at it differently I i. had someone contact me, and you know a mutual friend of ours and say hey, you know when you to take us somewhere. This is there. You know you've got you know thousands of followers and you know they're loving it and they love this thing so then I ended up creating a facebook page or fan page, and so I'm trying to share everything. Everything from that now and just continuing to share the messages and go on the journey I'm still in that transition stage, and so you know there are hard days, there are great days and I. Just try to roll with that you know. Try to roll with that and just share when I'm going through with the people and I. Get the feedback from them that it helping him and so that that's what matters to me. That I get to do that every day. What a Cook! Feeling and wonderful feeling that I have within my heart every day to know that. Somebody out, there was touched from what I've really heard, you say so far. It sounds like you're definitely very spiritual person. You're in touch with your spiritual side. I definitely am I believe that it was nothing but God that saved me on that night. I, there was no other reason that I should be here except for that and I've always been very close to guy, but after that you know I. I knew that he really had a plan for me here and that plan is for helping other people it's it's not about me. It's not about anything to do with me. It's about that positively sharing that hope and letting other people know it's very important for me to encourage and into to inspire other people to know that your story matters because you know one day I shared on facebook live that I can share. Share my story, but that's not going to resonate with everyone and you know I can't touch every single person you know. Everybody has a different story in journey, but you the person out there listening right now you have a story and it's a ripple effect, if you till your story just to one person and it makes a difference to them then you can encourage them to do the same, so I call it that. That ripple effect I wanted to inspire other people to share their stories because somebody needs to hear your story out there, you're listening and somebody needs to hear your story so I always encourage people to share it and people ask me how and like with a friend you know with a neighbor with someone you know at Church or in a group you may be in or on a facebook, live or just a tweet. An instagram post you know there are so many ways to share your story, and it can impact so many people so I really encourage people to do that because we need to hear people's life stories so that we can encourage one another with that hope. I know you. Your podcast has started up yet, but that's really a large part of having a good podcast. Because there's no, you know most of the time, there's no visual medium attached to it, so it's. Just a lot of good storytelling weather it's fictional or down to earth or something scary something that that affects people makes people want to listen absolutely and That's why I have been encouraged by so many of my friends and followers and fans. You know like we want to hear a podcast with you. We want this and we want you to have guests on into. Do this and I. I would be honored to do that for them. You know if that's what they want. I want to be there for them in and every way that I can so. I'm definitely working. Working on that and looking forward to that I think that would be such an honor. You know to do what you're doing to be able to hear somebody story. All the time like that is amazing. You know because I don't just have a story to share. I WanNa hear other people's stories and I. Get literally you know hundreds of messages of people telling me their stories people that have cancer people that have lost their spouse or loved one, and they want me to encourage them. Pray with him, and I always do, and they especially love on facebook. There's this feature. You can actually send a little voice clip I. Don't know if you're familiar with that. You can actually hit record and sent. A message and so many times you know I will just do a quick little message or personal prayer for them for whatever they're going through, and they have responded. People responded like you know just overwhelmingly. The you do not know what that meant to me. That was personal and you took the time to do that for me, and that's my heart. That is my heart. That is my whole entire being is to do that every day. Like I, said for one person, so if one person asked me for a prayer or tells me something about what they're going through. I'll just say hey, you know I'm going to say a prayer for you right now and I'll just say a little prayer and encourage them and let them know that they're loved, and it means a lot to them so I'm I'm feeling wonderful because I get to do that and that they want that. So. I I'm really loving that sometimes people who live there live not knowing that they've put the lives of other people. It's great that you get that sort of feedback there any special circumstance that stands out for your experience doing this so far. oh, yes. One day I was really you know like thinking Oh. What am I doing? These facebook lives like they don't matter. You know nobody cares you know really. Does it make a difference? I'm just not GonNa, do it today. You know I feel silly and I I'm always nervous when I do them every time you know, I'll be shaking, and I am I'm always like hey, guys, you hey, hey, and they. They love that little. Hey, hey, it's kind of a nervous thing. I'm like I I'm just real on just me. I'm shaking, but I'm here and so I really really struggled with doing this one facebook lobbyist one day, and the next night like that night, he this gentleman had written me, and he said I. Want you to know that I didn't WanNa. Live and I saw your facebook live this evening. And you encouraged me to keep living and I was blown away. I was blown away and he was like because I saw that I'm still here. And so that was incredible to experience that that's one of the of course. The biggest ones that ally was saved just by me, being obedient, getting on and sharing a story that I was even struggling to to do thinking it didn't matter and here was this one person that was saved and I just told him you know I was just being obedient but I, asked him and encouraged him to still seek help because I'm not you know a professional counselor? Anything like that I said. said. You know you had that moment and so i. want to ask you to still get help. And he wrote me back and he said I did I, did so I went and got help all because you asked me to and I just want you to know that for me. You're like an earth angel, and I hope I get to meet you in person because you really saved my life, and that was very powerful for me, so because of that now whenever I feel that feeling like okay, you need to get on a facebook. Live and talk about this. Because of that man I don't hesitate anymore. I'm still nervous. I'm still shaking. Feel nervous about what I'm doing because I'm just getting on their sharing my heart I don't i. don't have a script I. Don't know you know exactly what I'm going to say. There's nothing scripted. There's no one to help me I just other than the Lord, but I just get on and share my heart, and so of course it's it can be very nerve wracking, but because of him. I'm like I have to do that. If I'm feeling it, then there could be another one of him out there and so that's very big for me. That's That was a huge moment for me. That changed that. That fear of it not mattering to knowing it does matter and keep doing it and there there are numerous stories that have like that numerous people that have contacted me actually had a local person local lady. Right me and say I've never met you in person, but I've seen you here on facebook and we live in the same town, and you know your facebook lives, and even your posts have gotten me through so many hard time, and she shared with me some personal things about her life. She's been through a whole lot in the military and things like that, and she said their days that I can. Can hardly get through the day until I see your posts. And then they encouraged me to go on, and she said I've actually had a dream. And you were in my dream, and you came to me and said you're going to be okay. You just need to be yourself. And she said so I haven't met you, but you came to me in a dream and I was like wow, that is very powerful. That's encouraging that that I you know meant so much to someone and that they felt that encouragement, so that is That's really touching. You know that she felt that way and that it made. made a difference in her life, which is all that matters to me that it made a difference for her, and so that that meant a lot to me so I've had many many stories like that There was a lady that I met with her in person, and we had dinner together. A few of us together did we had met? We hadn't seen each other in years. And we're all here locally. where I live and I was just sharing my story, and how I had emission now, and she called me the next morning crying and she said I need you know that you changed my life. And I was like how and she said because I went home and I had to dig deep. And I called my husband and said you know what I never had a mission before, but because she shared with me, hers, it encouraged me. Come dig deep, and to sit here tonight and define Mon. and now I know mine, and so she's off doing her thing, and I'm watching her fly, and it's amazing, but it touched me so much that just shoring my little story that is just my own little thing you know has touched. These is like that and mission accomplished. You know if I never touched another one. Those were enough. You know each one of those was enough. I'm sure if keeping score, you know after the first one everybody else's just a bonus. Oh, they're all each. Each one special so special to me like each person and you know I have so many that me, and there's so many that are faithful, and just always commenting, and you know TV, I t, T, t, T and I just love it, and so even the logo that I created for the thank God today has like a little sunshine on it because I want everybody to know that it's about that little today. It's a little sunshine that when you wake up and you have that new day to embrace it, so it's really neat. You know to see everybody embracing TV it and sharing it on all forms of social media. It means a lot to me and I really hope. It is my goal, and it is my hope for it makes TV I F obsolete because I. Really Want everybody out there to get that TV it mentality. Thank God. It's Today. I literally. Wake up and say it every day even on the hardest days the days that you cry the days that you're going through the things that we have to go through. You still can have that mentality and you. You can still feel that way. It's not always happy and rainbows, and yes, my little sunshine logo, but it's about the mentality, and that even on the hard days I still thank God today, because I'm still here on the live. And I'm breathing, and so I'm very grateful for that. I'm grateful that I can be here and just to share that love with people. You were saying that you get nervous. Before you, you talk, I. Guess What it is. Is that because you don't you description? You're speaking from the heart. You kind of making yourself a little bit more vulnerable to people that are listening to every word that you're saying absolutely, and you know like you and I, you know I was. On with you I was. Like. You're. GOING GONNA have a conversation, but I feel nervous every time because there's still no script right now, but what makes it easier is that you can actually give me feedback. You know you can ask me a question and we can talk when you're on facebook live. You're just talking. There's no one to talk back to you so I'm just on their. Just bearing my heart, and being completely vulnerable and always say this unjust being transparent I'm being completely myself and just getting on here. Sometimes I cry. Sometimes I laugh and you know. I had this really I call it obnoxious laugh like I'll. I'll get tickled, and I'll have to really funny like Kinda loud laugh, and I'm like I hate my life and I. Like please don't stop doing the hat I. Love Your Laugh so cute and I'm like Oh I hate it and they're like I love you. It's the best part of your facebook. Live and so I'm like okay. Okay I'm just me, so they love my obnoxious laugh. Even so I, love that they love me that much. No loved them that much to. It's really funny. It's really fun sharing live for these people. People and getting to know them and you know like come through. You know they'll say hey. Let's meet for coffee and I actually get to meet you in person and I'm like I would be happy to, and so you know I can meet up with a group of people and we have called coffee, and it becomes reality, and then your real friends. That's really neat. That's the great part of the journey and. Four to have in moments like that where you know, they can come in and you know we could have like some kind of setting record. Meet them in person, and of course doing podcasts, we'll be part of that as well and I also do have a book in the work, so that'll be another part of that another piece of the puzzle, so lots of exciting things some super excited and you know it's hard as That experience was that I've gone through I. Just I have to look at it and say it's worth it because now I get to help other people and see like right now. I want to cry. Because I have so much gratitude and my heart. That I could make a difference in one person's life. If what I've gone through can do that then it was worth it was worth it in every way shape and form, and that's what I WANNA do. We'll also probably work for us that people can detect sincerity, so they know that like you're speaking from the heart and you're. You're bearing your soul and you know. It's not an act. It's just you being. Tammy and you know people out there I figured I'd like. You're not gonNA like make their own judgments and I'm sure the people who see something in you that they wanna see themselves are GonNa. Be the ones that are going to be your most rabid fans. Yes, absolutely and you know people right me and they'll say I love Ti, it, thank God. It's today, but I'll always say thank God. It's Tammy when you come on facebook live and I'm like really and they're like. Yes, when you come on, I'm like. Thank God. It's Tammy here she is, she's on facebook. Live I'm so excited to see her and I just thought that was the sweetest thing. What a compliment you know for someone to say, thank God. It's Tammy, and so that's part of what we're trying to decide about. The podcast name will be. Thank God, it's today or be. Thank God it, Sammy. You know we'll have to ask the fans you know. They're the ones who will support it and help it grow and share it and listen so I will definitely leave it in their hands, because that's what matters to me what they feel. But what other podcasts do you like to listen to? Oh I like to listen to a lot of like mystery wins. I love her life. When I listened to the one I can't remember the name of name of it, but it was the one of the the real life story of the girl in Georgia Tara. Think her name is Tara Tara. Excellent the her life story. She was missing and it was this huge case like a cold case so I really. Things like that. Yeah, the ones like that Lots of great ones out there. There's so many to choose from. There are yes, there are. Keep your share a busy. Oh yeah, absolutely, but it's great when you're working out or when you're driving, because I would prefer to learn, so I'm always loving to learn anything I can learn and so listening to those when you're driving and such is just wonderful you know, and it's like you've got somebody right there with you, and so it's really fun and exciting to hoot we. We have a portion of the show, and it's called shameless self-promotion same lows. Promotion. Let our our little rebels. You're listening to know how they can get a few or. Any of your social media things that you're on. 'cause they can We can follow you as well. Absolutely I would be honored and I would love you. Come in share the journey with me and show you me. Share my cue and yours with me. I created a new facebook page, and it's simply called Tammy, so it's t. a. m. m. y., and that's on facebook, and then they'll be connections to my instagram, my twitter, and of course just I have a personal face, but but I think it's I think it's completely filled up. Up almost so just the facebook page Tammy is the most important, and of course there's probably going to be youtube to come and definitely the podcast and all look for the Hashtag. T. G. I.. T. so that is the little Hashtag, created Hashtag, the it thank God today, and you can look that up on instagram. Twitter facebook and you can find it all on her, because that's what I'm doing. That's my little baby I. Call it my baby. Well, I say Tgi Thi. This gal is terrific, and her name is Tammy and. Our appreciate you coming down to the surface La. We like to thank the airwaves that we have work today. Yes, we did and I'm so honored that you had me I'm grateful and I appreciate you very much. If. You haven't heard about anchor. It's the easiest way to make a podcast. Let me explain it's free. There's creation tools that allow you to record an editor podcast. Right from your phone or computer. Anchor will distribute your podcast for you, so it can be heard on spotify apple podcasts and many more pod casting platforms. You can even make money from your podcast with no minimum listenership. It's everything you need to make podcast all in one place download the free anchor APP GO TO ANCHOR DOT FM to get started. Let's get back to the Sherpa. And now it's time for Sherpa suggestions. For this week, stripper suggestions I got a little help from a website called happier human dot com for podcasts about happiness and we have. TAMMY's soon to be podcast, and of course I can't forget I. Friend Mr Howard. And we doing it and also my friend Deanne. Goodman's in better news definitely podcast. You want to check out if you WANNA have a smile on your face, you also have happier with question Rubin the Good Life Project School of greatness with Lewis House the science of happiness. Thatcher kilner the one you feed by Eric, Zimmer and Chris Forbes, the daily boost with Scott Smith earn. You're happy with Lori harder positive psychology podcast live happy now adventures in happiness with Jessica ortner and the kindness project with Father Daughter Duo Chris in Charlotte. I bet you already got a smile on your face now or are you just waiting for that stimulus check? Thanks so much for listening guys and Gals and rebels of the pollution and especial thanks to Tammy and win. Her podcast is up and running I'll be announcing that for you on my social media pages now. Where am I sold media well? If you go to facebook, twitter or instagram and look for sure pollution, just click follow, and you can follow me on social media, and you can hear what's going on and whom I've spoken to, and you'll know when new shows are. Are Coming out. You can also see the schedule of each month's shows by going to my website shore pollution dot com. You hope you enjoyed the show and we'll be back next week with Fisher screening room. Here's a guy who's always happy. I think he's been sneaking into the liquor cabinet at the sharper shall, but I'm not gonNA. Say Anything Mr Bruce. Oh there you are yes. Could you please Huey when the door I thank you, sir by rebels, Viva Leisure pollution. Thanks for listening to too many podcasts. Please dispose. You can go home now. I said you can go home now. Viva ship Aleutian. Be! Ownership. y'All. Come back now here.
March Sadness with Jay Wright and Tom Izzo Edition
"At the BUZZER sounded timeouts. They do courtside with Greenberg and dockage the definitive college basketball podcast square. The world's greatest podcast is back to help people create their heads a little bit and wrap their hands around the epidemic that we're dealing with. But where were you when I heard that basically society and life as we know it has changed? I'm a little embarrassed. We kinda thought the night before. That's what was going to happen. Sean McDonough myself and all of us were in a car. We like man. This isn't GonNa continue and Sean after our game which was a night game. Stop and talk to a bunch of these. The Fan he's like. I'll be shocked if we play tomorrow but when it actually happens that's just totally different and by initial and I'm embarrassed to say this in but I guess we're all supposed to be all knowing. I thought maybe. This was all an overreaction. I thought just play without fans. Let's let guys go and why? Why do you have to shutdown? Why can't you postpone did? Initially that was my initial reaction. And then as you Kinda like like harbored and my my stepdaughter plays softball. Would they shut the whole thing down? I and I thought man that seems to be an overreaction and then later on when it was cancelled Scotty Johnson whose ran the college world series for forty. Thirty years said you know. Hey we were playing golf when we return our phones off because we're like let's just let's just you know we're in Greensboro. We can't get home. Let's just play golf? And all of a he gets a ding on his apple. Watch says the college world series is cancelled set. So we're like what do we do like? What is this you know what I mean? It was like Holy Hell. This is a and I'm not GONNA lie both of us and I want to put words in Scott. Why is cinch already? You know what I'm saying like. Why didn't they postpone? Why why are we gonNa can't yet you know it's interesting when when that first day when it all basically came on Raveling. First of all life has changed. I mean life has changed dramatically. I have friends who's lost jobs at friends that own businesses in our town. That are just trying to stay alive. You're great things in your community In terms of having takeout Thursday you the amount of uncertainty that we live in is changed. I mean in here this has nothing to do with the NCAA tournament. This has everything to do with just the society in general humanity. In general our community in general are our country. Our states that we live in people are dying every day at people. I have maury hanks the afraid for thirty forty years was I perfectly healthy. Week Ago I get a call from Kirby Davis you know He. We might lose last night. He was They turned over a one last ditch. Effort found a finally. Got A ventilator forum. And he's doing a little bit better today but those type of things don't happen everyday to me. Life changed significantly And and puts everything a lot of things in perspective for sure. So you know I was. I was getting ready to go into the studio and do our our half times of the Games in in Greensboro in our member. Adam schefter coming to me and going. I just don't feel like going and doing sportscenter today. So what's Mattie feeling okay? This man he goes. He's I'm just were in the midst of a national pandemic and it was the first time that boom Mississippi between the eyes it. Oh that the things. I've been reading that I kind of didn't read and re deep it house where a reality and when the next twenty. Four hours obviously Sports shutting down but more importantly you know business in and and and society as we know it shutting down. It's been A. It's been really really difficult to watch. The our friends get sick. And you're worrying about family. You worried about my Mama lives in New York City. Ninety three years old. You're worried about you. See where you touch will go to the grocery store. Stay away from people. I think it's been it's been Dramatic Caen get after my mom. Go coach Ma. Because she was they cancelled church. She's eighty three. She's had chemo. She's gets pneumonia and she's gathered with people. I'm like mom. What the Hell you doing? What like don't you know? I'd go coach on my mom Amin it's a new world. Man It's a visual. Here's the thing with the carry out stuff and this is we're all talking about and people you know. I'll be honest. My my day hasn't changed my day radio. Show that I come home. I don't watch boards but as part of my day. That's just you know what every day I'll tell you this. I'm calling my mom telling her what do you know? What are you doing? I mean I talked to a Lotta anyway and everyday lease tell her you know you try to kind of figure this out but the thing with our cherry out day is what's going to happen when this is over. This isn't over when we're allowed to go back outside. I mean we're we're not like I'm trying to get people understand and look whether carry out or whatever if you support these places that you like and you love then you know what maybe when this is all over. That business can survive in selfishly. You can still go to those places you know and help those work. I don't know there's so many elements to this south. It's I'm not even gonNA pretend to be the most sensitive person or the most knowledgeable person I just know that one of the things. This is a great opportunity for people reconnect with their families. And just stay the hell inside. I mean or stay around your house or not so mad. I'm like airing my dirty laundry so mad at my mom. The other day when she was giggling about you know church got cancelled but we all went over to so and so's house and we all watched and we all played cards. And I'm like what the Hell's wrong with you. There's reason church was canceled. I mean sometimes you just don't know I had to go coach on my mom and I don't feel good about that but it was it was. It was sure the right thing to done. Oh by the way you crowned National Champion. Anyway W I mean it was a little bit of a fix this. I could stay. You ended up with the highest state. 'cause junior but I don't Taylor understands his dad at his own e answered up by tournament. I helped talk through some of the rounds and brings some legitimacy to deter me because there was no legitimacy since card. I it sounds as if you were. It was totally rigged. I mean I mean Lacrosse Kamar. Baldwin and Butler is in Indianapolis Advance beat people. I mean juniors like whenever game buzzer shots. I mean drawn a place. Chris halted sit down. I got this were uncontrolled. Here's Bill I want to give you. I in your day your day. Give me your four. Savory College basketball players my favorite college basketball. When you're a player I like when you were growing up. What was your favorite Bill Walton? Bill Walton was Scott May Mark Maguire and Teddy grubs Teddy played for big to Paul. Where where I live in Indiana? Says we don't deal with Indiana University we. It's a Chicago been my day was Marquette Depaul Notre Dame. Ucla play a Notre Dame San Francisco with John Heywood and Wallace. Brian and quitting daily coming into Notre Dame. It wasn't you know good old fashioned hoosier dumb and Gary Indiana but Scott May was the man I mean he was. He was the Gaza baby he was. He was So those are probably but but but overlying everybody. Because I'm Serbian and I never saw him play enough. I remember watching him play once. Pete Marriage is our guy now. Now you can talk about. It's about time you came around. Well just saying what you said. I saw growing up. He wasn't pete was. I was in second grade but he was for Serbian for young Serbian kids as played at UCLA. Pete Targets Turkovich myself. Louis Stefanovic Sizes Dad All of us because big Serbian population in Northwest Indiana. I mean Pete marriages that Guy. I mean he is the guy we all have videos did it. Stocked is dribbling. I mean like I didn't see Oscar. I didn't see well really didn't see Korean creams best player. I ever saw In my opinion Michael Jordan or two best players I ever saw. But that's a good lifespan. We'll give you my list as some of my didn't see but member people's Greenberg's way older than me so there's no doubt about it. So here's the bad absolutely loved the big. I heard what sitting at dinner I heard more big O. Story saw every one of my guys. You don't have to say last night at that's that's my four grown up as a kid. My forefinger favorite college players the big my dad and he had a man crush on the big oh he would just sit there go big Oak. Do whatever he wants to kind of watch I remember. He said at eight thousand times when I was no big wants to get to fifteen feet. He got fifteen feet of. They're going to get to the rim. You got if you wanted to offensive. Rebound he went got big better than everyone else. So so big O's number one. I mean I used to hear more big stories in an anyone all right. The next one magic needs no sex. No He's a lessening. I loved the Magic Man. I mean the joy he still remember I was at I just got tired of it. He played into Dapper. Dan in Pittsburgh tripped over his warm ups in the introduction and just had the greatest smile on his face was happy as could be fell in love with the management pistol. Pete I had to floppy socks in floppy here. I know you can't imagine me I don't be here. I've seen I had a full. I had a floppy here and I had to gray socks and I'm not just the way it is and then my last guy known even I mean knows but I thought I was in. I was earning the. Oh your guy was Ernie. I could come down wheel and deal behind the back. Their asses shot at just like him slug that big top of my head now. Those are the guys that when I was growing up all right that I that I want and we're GONNA ask Jay Wright this we're GONNA ask Tom Izzo. Who'd hair guys were interested to see? You know the context. We're doing his greatest players in history counter basketball. The research people need a little work because to research they know Isaiah. Thomas come on give me a break. Scott Wall Tag goodrich big dog. You're right. The big dog was a bad. How about how about offered was a sixteen seat in Zion freaking Williamson was like an eight or nine seat trae young over? Isaiah trae young over the big dog. Are you CR- trae young over Kent Benson trae young over Mark Maguire? Trae my ass. I agree we absolutely how about this? Trae YOUNG BEAT. Shamikh hosts gone should recall slot when three national championship scoring. Yes he give me a break into tournament shack beat read. Please are not. That's ridiculous. Oh God they changed the rules for Kareem. That's ridiculous how big all Walker we'd be shocked in the NC. Aa Tournament is last college. Game with a kid named Matt Nova Ricky road from BLUE CHIPS GARDEN MOUTH. Shaq had thirty six and made all twelve of his free throws so. Don't add me people but come on over Kareem not a C Robertson had a good year Oscar. Robertson changed the game now just set Oscar. Robertson could get anywhere. He wanted to go back. You sound like Ralph Reed. Right now by route springer would say you know what a good guard is a good guard. Get the ball anywhere. He wants to court anytime. Be Watching them better. Whose GARDEN GOING TO BE. A good guard. You gotta get it to the wing feed post a lot get into the way you want to get the ball middle foresee conversate get us. They're out Greenberg newest. Who played for Claire? Be now I mean I mean. Come on Ruffling for New Sofa. That's just the way it is. You know so so so those big for now what we're going to have to get Jay writes big for welcoming me now. Let's welcome it. We're GONNA welcome in Jay Wright J right first question most important question. What is the most ridiculous thing you've done? Your wife has asked you to do in the last fourteen days. Oh my God Well just just Ethnic play tennis with her and and then just totally kick my butt and then yelled at me when I competed too hard but then she just torched me so. I just came in from that. That's just the beginning we could. We could go on forever. We could go on forever. Let me ask you right now as a coach. You've never been in this spot. Have you aware there's literally nothing you can do? So when there's nothing you can do what you do. When I use zoom in recruits. What are you doing it? Is it is wild. But I'll tell you to be honest with you I. We've been on a kind of a run last summer. We really sped up our June July workouts. Because we knew that I was going away for the World Cup with that World Cup team and that I was going to miss the first two weeks of September so we really worked hard in the summer and then and then I went away for forty five days and then came back on September seventeenth. The guys had already been practiced for two weeks. And so then we got right into it. So I'm Tony. Honestly like I think our team and I was. I talked to our guys about this. By the end of our schedule was set up that we didn't have a bye week In the Big East because we played Connecticut and we played temple in February and January and and I felt like a young team and we were practicing a lot. I really felt like a lot of us. Were burnt out by the end. But we we were. GonNa bust it out and so then honestly. I'm the first week I was pretty. Good man enjoyed. I was relaxing man and now I'm just starting to get into. I think my staff's getting a little bit like all right getting over the edge bags not leaving anybody alone. I think it's just starting now like getting the staff with ideas all the time texting our guys all the time straight coach. I but up until this point I actually been pretty good relaxing Leo with. Here's the two issues. Like how do you deal with number one keeping track of your guys academically? And then how do you deal with your guys basically because you have some guys that have some decisions to make dealing with the static that decision do I come back? Go put my name in test the waters. How do you deal with those two things? Probably the top two priorities for us right now Especially me as the head coach there. The two things that You know we all see just like Dan saying we all have things we come in and we have to accomplish each day and your priorities But the two main things for for me each day our Jeremiah Robinson and Sadique Bay and And then we have great academic staff. I I'll go to that next year but You know just staying on top of everybody that way You know and then probably third. Comp- is is recruiting but You know you got we got two guys like Jeremie around say Diku who If this was the normal timeframe they would be preparing well. Hopefully they'd be playing. It's not they'd be preparing for you. Know the pre-draft process you know. We put their names in To get evaluated are we. We've not heard back yet. But you know you got to young guys thinking about their careers and now this hits you know. They don't know should they? Should they be in great shape? Right now is just thinking to start up and they called in for workouts or so. We're just trying to get as much information as we can from the NBA and And you'll need a bottom has agents so you know we. We have to handle that process for them. They have to find places to work out. 'cause doing over his shutdown. No one's allowed on campus. That's that's an issue and then academically like you said like we're actually. We're really lucky. But you guys that coaches you know this. This was. This was one of our conversation. Just say the staff where I think. You're starting to get sick of me where you say. Look we know our guys. It's like your own children all right. They're all online classes. That you know your guys but you know your children. There's three or four guys that we come back in end of April and we You know what he's really behind you got caught behind then shame on us because we know who they are. So let's get them right now but for anybody get on sprites now right you know who they are so live with these dudes and make sure the classes every day. They're getting the work done. That's the stuff people don't understand like people don't understand like you just said make sure every day these guys. These certain guys are taking care of her release. The held accountable by the coaching staff. Man they see hit jump shots boss they see you the suit on a sidelight but they don't see that stuff they don't see that at all you got. You talked guys right now. Like how often do you try to touch base with you guys but we have a we have a group me? Texts that We you know we use all the time just between the systems on just me and the players and so they they know like during the year. It's funny can talk about these things now because we're all out of this but you know if I tax they don't hit me back immediately. We don't have that problem but we used to back in the day and you know the thing is like you're on the phone all day. I on the phone all day. If you're not hitting me back right away you can't tell you didn't see it all depends. I better be the first response. And you don't always get them freshman on that you see the you know the seniors. The upper class will hit you back right away and there'll be no late and you know the seniors went hit them and return return his method. Because if I come back the next day someone didn't return it then I'll get on all of them so we're on that you know every day on every other day just whatever comes up you know if I think of something or I see video or something. I'll I'll hit them. It's just it's just like being able to have him stop in in the office each day. Let me ask you when you heard is being canceled. Where were you what went through your mind which won the Big East or the NCAA always Chris? You know the big east set it was again. You guys know as coaches like we. We were so locked in we on Thursday we had. We were playing the Paul that night we had A. We had a walk through at the New York Athletic Club. So stay at the rich right right. You know one block down so we we walk a block down to New York Athletic Club. You know you go in the back door. Go up the elevator with great walk through some of our guys who are You Know Red Shirt and they. They have a workout afterwards. We COME BACK WE WATCH. We are dialed in a ready to go so it was amazing how it hit 'cause we really felt like we played our best basketball and we're really fired up about the tournament and then the tournament starts you know. They played Wednesday night. And then you're watching the twelve o'clock game and so it's on you know that feeling you know when there's a twelve o'clock game going you're eating lunch you're getting ready for your final pregame meal and and then thank you know we we get the call halftime done and it was like you've never experienced that before you know I. I must have said that a guy flights that day two or three times a day like you know we do everything by the minute. Like like all coaches. Do we have everything down to the minute. And and they know they the head what we're GONNA do. I said you know we always have everything. Set up for you and Organiz. I don't have an answer right like I don't know what we're going to do next. This game cancelled This tournaments canceled. I don't know if we're going home right now. I don't know if we're staying here tonight. I don't know what let me just you know. Let me just get with our people. Go back to your rooms. I'll get back to you you know. And and then we went right home that night Thursday and then when we got off the bus and Villanova all the media was waiting for us. You know they. They had the the barrier set up where they hadn't stayed back away from US and Look at hand or twenty overlap. I Dunno as I'm talking to them with the cameras in front of one of the Reporters Sans Phone and he sends and it says on the NCAA tournament cancelled. So I said hey guys I got I got stopped these guys into the locker room in our practice. Assuming I gotTA GO Buffalo Guy but I'll come back out and talk to you so that I went into met with the guys and then I came back out with the press conference but the same thing I said was I just WanNa give you the info. 'cause I just got it and say tournant canceled. I don't know what that means. I don't know we don't home. We staying at let me just let me go finish. This press comes back out. We'll all meet and we'll figure this out together but you never had a coach talking about i. Don't you never say to them? I don't know what the Hell's going on you know that. That's what was the lar- coach. How did they responded? How did they react in this reaction players? You know I I look at we all do you know we look at each one of them. L. Just see each guy react as I'm talking to them and is really interesting Be Bad who was playing the best basketball and he's he's a real quiet guy. Is Integrate Real Smart Guy. Real quiet she was like visibly shaken. I'd never seen them like that ever And that that picture will remain in my mind. If you the coolest columnist right is guy. And I saw him like like grits shake his head head down which for him is incredible reaction but like couldn't stand still and Some of the other guys are just like wide. I'd like to miss possibly happen. You know We only have one senior a walk on who? I think. We'll be back with US next year as a graduate assistant so I think he tim saunders so I think he's thinking I you know I'm not GonNa get to do this this year but I'll be back next year so we didn't have anybody that new. I'm never get this chance again. You know that which I really feel for the guys that you got no like I posted hoster. You know you're at that level and you get that one chance to go. It's it's like going to a final four so big and then you don't get to do it the I I feel for those guys. How how have they been since like? How long do you think like? I'm curious because I can only imagine like this is what you do man. This is how you roll this part of particularly your place where let's be honest. People think they man we go in national championship. How long this whole thing take is still going on. I think they that's a great question. I you know I like each guy is different. You know like Be Bay and Jeremiah Robinson like you know crushed like everybody and then immediately That was like Thursday like Monday. Like I WANNA work out. Where Kinda work out. I'm like. Yeah whatever we're doing if we would have lost or if we would not made the NCAA trump we. We would have taken a couple of weeks off like rest. Rest is really big inappropriate. We really talk about rest. Analyze the basic concept. Being if you're going to really bust your butt when you're here the intense and committed then you're rest is really valuable and you arrest really productive now if you lazy and you're not working hard when you're here now that that is a waste of time but we want you to be maniacally committed when you're here so that when you rest it's it's really productive rest. Our strength is really big on that and we talk about it a lot so you know the first week I was trying to talk about. This is good for us and I think they were okay and then the next week they they were starting to get answered. You know every a no there is telling them rest but then they were going to more strength coach on their own sin getting work to do and I know they were finding places to work out on their own Jeremie gotten real trouble because he was sneaking into the gym here on his own. I didn't know but they can check your card. We don't we get into I watch with with just your Your own code you know and they can check. That may gave whatever system to call. A gym is going to have written down so I think now they're they're they've come around Dan where they're all starting to get a little. I think they're all starting to get a little crazy. Where where okay. We took our West but we actually should be playing right now or we should be working out for next year. Give me something you know. I gotta start doing something. J. Like here's the thing you your your group is. He's a pretty good group at the guys in this category. But some some of the guys like you say you're places closed down. Universities closed down. Some kids are going back to homes where they're almost. They're going into a tougher situation than they are when they're on campus. Like you're feeding your the things you're doing with them Are a different some guys. You know across America going back situations where you know maybe single-parent family maybe that one parent has a couple of children and now all of a sudden you're adding another person to the mix and you know there's a chance with the way things are right. Now that people being laid off people are out of work. Hadn't you deal with actress making sure that your kids are good? Environments are making good decisions because this stuff Israel. That's a great point and that has nothing to do with Basketball developed home or education. Or anything it's got to do with A person's personal well-being. You know as you know again you guys know I'm preaching to the choir here but We're pretty fortunate. Good number of our guys have really good place to go back to really fortunate about that but you got a few guys that you know once they leave home and maybe a lot of people know this but once they leave home. It's actually a great financial assistance to their family. Because now there's one blessed big person has to be taken care of and Fed and there's space you know and they come to our and You know I don't WanNa get. I don't want to get on a soapbox about this. When we talk about guys get paid In College you know they get to our places and they're they're living in luxury compared to where they come from and they're eating better than anyone in the world. He's you know there they can. They can get fed anytime they have masseuse and they have strength coach and academic advisers and they have Tutors and they have coaches working them out individually and they have beautiful apartments and they travel on chartered planes and they stay in the rich and they it. It's a really nice lifestyle. And now the don't back to places where their family does not have the money to still feed them. You know because they haven't been doing it for a couple years you know. A lot of those guys is you. Go you know in the spring and summer. They don't the home they stay here. It's it's better here and and that's a good thing for everybody and I think that's an issue that we're going to start getting hit with soon here where we're GONNA have to a few guys might have to move them to stay with somebody but with this quarantine like what family can take amid. You know if a family's quarantine like I know guys on our team would take other guys in especially local guys for what if they're quarantined. Or what if they don't the rest of the family is not comfortable with somebody coming in from the outside that might bring the virus. It's something we're going to have to look at you as it's just the riots every step. I'm going to give you one light. One four favorite players in college basketball history like this. We're going to have to be Nova guys we got. We got like four favorite like when you were growing up. Who is your favorite players? Then I'll tell you what's really cool for me. One of my favorite players. I was eleven years old. Is Chris Ford? You remember him at Villanova. Oh Yeah Chris Forbes Great Villanovan tune you because he was like six six four six five guard and I was like. I wasn't that big yet but I was like a call. Lanky point guard. He he was my favorite player in seventy warm and they went to the championship game against Ucla I just love him. And I it's so. Cold has become such a great friend of mine. And he's such a humble guy and I always say with all the Great Players Still Got Wales in Jalen Brunson and archer. That's Joe still my favorite player man and But I I also I love pizza. Vich Love Pete Manet's when he was Lsu man. I used to every time they show they show his games. I thought he was unbelievable. there was a guy in Philadelphia. Michael Brooks Michael Brooks. Oh Man. He was he was so fundamentally sound. I loved him and they'd probably my other favorite grown up again. They're all big five guys up here. So but remember Corky. Calhoun played a pen then played the date for the sons. I think he was. I don't know if I like them. So much. Ten really good that or just had a great name and we'll play like in the place that we would just say cody cattle. You know but they were. They were definitely for for my favorites coach through the best man. Appreciate you thanks. Thanks for the guy. I'm sure Atalanta people go. Thanks for him all right. We're GONNA welcoming coach Tom. Izzo State all right before we get into serious stop. What's The craziest thing lupis? Had you doing last candidates You know what I've done. I've done More cleaning than Carter over pills here. I'm having a cookout tonight. I'm eating off the floor of my garage because it's cleaner than dishes so I've done it all here You know I got my office. I got my closets. I am my last thing is my addict. I'm working on my attic today tomorrow and then I don't know what I'm GONNA do totes before. Greenberg kills me for this a my radio show. Was You state playing for the National Championship expire? Any it was five person vote. I voted for Ohio state set had been doing surveys studer to than a guy decided so great. Words been crushing me. But my thing was I if Steven is coaching a team and you have a fake tournament and he gets a Free National Championship. The hell you're not going to vote for your son in I've got I'm going with the son. Danny I'm going funny but you know we didn't talk at the end on it but you know that run. They made too. I mean when nine hundred eleven they were they were playing it. Just been the strangest urine are league that we all had our two three game hiccups. We've all had our you know You look at. The beginning of the year for us was good in the beginning. Here for US state was Indigo Michigan. And then we each kind of had our drop offs and Penn State was really good in the middle then. They dropped off a little at the end. Same would Maryland I mean it was but they were all good and everybody wonders why because the other teams go to write. I had an analysis for this. I had looked. They were going to try to play through West. Debut album was the best defender in the big ten. He was taken western out rocket watts in the left corner off a high ball screen cash is going to his rights. Let me add was rocking was shot or was it a double. Bankin like some of those ones. I'm not sure those were the best shots but I told him he plays so hard on defense he can take a couple of bad shots but when you get four or five any big time he says. I said I didn't like a couple of shots. He said well coach. I made on my shit. Yeah and be. Don't bank those two in your one for seven sometimes as freshmen. They don't understand Tom's even on a fictitious win. So we had we had hopman on you know and and you know. How do you celebrate a fictitious win? Right so he goes. He goes into about ten minutes on. How good you guys are man. They played great coach. This is just a tournament. I mean we're crazy too. You're not just we are. Yeah I got home hours of Phil but hey I talk about this because I thought I mean I know you know. Cash is the story and all that but my God did Xavier. Tillman get playing at holy held rocket. Watts. Come on for your boss where you know what it is you know. I mean catches about I mean that thing was it just was kind of up and down. I mean you wasn't as good defensively as he was real early in the year before it happened. And then he started turning the ball over which is not like him you know and but he started playing better at the end. Xavier probably played headiest. Aaron Henry the other guy from I mean last eight games. He was really good. I don't know if you just I next year. I gotTA start the end of the year at the beginning. I think you know 'cause he's been and he really did play better than what I had with him. Rockin Xavier I might have had the best defenders and that made a difference in our team because it got our fast-break going again and we were. We were kind of a slow break for a while so I agree with you though rocket came on I mean he he can he still throw up some shots that you know. We're GONNA have to talk about the off season bought. He does play so hard defensively and he made a big difference symptoms gates. Hey did you think? I don't mean to hijack the conversation but did you think you happy and good Keno. Dan I do think there's just the way I looked at. I said we're playing our best basketball. I think Kansas was the best. Maybe team you know and and I say that and and I really like date night I feel bad for guys like Dayton because You know I was advocate of having these selection show. Yeah it would. It would help the big ten but I. I felt bad for the Lamar Stevens. I felt bad for rutgers. I felt bad for me. When is Dayton going to be a number one seat again? You Know I. That was the only thing I thought but as far as we go. I do think we're playing our best basketball. We had some guys that have been through a final four. We have staff that's been there. I thought we could make a run but I I thought we was good as most but I thought most there is good as uh it was one of those years where so many teams to me could a want it. At least we had some experience and I thought what worked in our favor. Day to try to get there and then as you know once you get there. It's who knows you know Tom on. You heard the big ten. Where were you when you heard that the big ten was shutting down and then obviously Answered shutting down? Where were you? What were you with your team with your staff. What had transpired was so strange. Because I got the word tonight before that there'd be no fans so I sit there that night. That was the night before it was Wednesday night. You know right after those games and and I I said I gotta come with something because we had. We had said something that it'll be just your immediate family and of course some of those guys got aunts and uncles. Grandparents of them have girlfriends. You know. They're worried about the dumbest things in the world. But I do. It bothered some guy so I got up at seven thirty. I said we practice at ten thirty till twelve. And then we're GONNA leave at one o'clock on Thursday and so I haven't seen I had a team meeting at nine o'clock and I I said look guys. We played concert scrimmage in front of Nobody Denver at the beginning of the year and once the ball is tipped. Everything's kind of the same the And then I said I played division to Mike Garland and I. We always played in front of nobody. You know even though it was truthful and And I could see my guys down and then we go out and we have one of the best practices and ten minutes before it's over. David Thomas My sobol comes down and says it just Michigan. I think it was right there and then I sent the guys home and then three hours later. I get word that looks like they're closing down so I get them back. So you're from me on twitter and that was a tear jerking four thirty meeting. You know I feel bad for for all your sees. I feel bad procedures everywhere. I mean I I feel bad for the march came back to try to get there and then doesn't even get a chance so but and I look at it. It was still the right thing to do and everything it just. Don't think of that when you're when you're in that moment but I So that's why I learned. I learned everything Thursday. I was in the gym twelve four. And that's what I got the word of the big ten in the. What did you say your Dad's I'm like? What like in that meeting. What do you what do you say you guys I? I said I don't know how to tell you this especially your seniors but it just cancelled the whole thing and it's not postponed. It's been canceled and they just stared. You know it was just nobody knew what to say. Because I don't know if you know it was hard for me to wrap my arms around. How serious it was because this is a unprecedented thing. When you're twenty you know you think you can walk through Iraq and not get hurt you know you just kinda look at life that way and and so I you know I think I think all we could still play played putting nobody is not will than that and then I had an individual. I took my seniors in a different room and I talked to them and then the next day I kind of set up with the NBA had a half hour meeting. Would each player. Just Kinda a little bit over two seasons but Little bit just to talk about the whole thing and when senior meeting right after my regular duty now I kept cast is a little longer and that was you've been through so much that was that was a hard meeting to be honest with E he handled it. You know he's unlike me. Unlike you guys too you know. We're a little up and down with our emotions he's kind of level headed even Keel than I mean. He shed a tear but he you know he. He handled it better than I would. If I was the senior you sit coach. Or what are you hearing? Or what's the? What do people know about an extra year for players very talk about that in basketball? We've gotten to that point in off sees Danny I. I don't think GONNA I. I think I think it will happen in the other sports. I think they're gonNA look at it. Let's We all played thirty one games and you know what I like to see it I would. I don't open affect me. Any other cash to make chance kyle learns has already been your five years. You know he's on Medicaid so that wouldn't wouldn't have come back and You know but I still look at some of those players around the country and I I just I feel for those guys feel for all of you know I I. I talked to at that At Penn State. Because I think what's going to happen a couple years down the road you know rutgers as a hell of a year and then they have a couple of years or so someone's going to say the NCAA tournament in six years so no we should fire these guys here there. And that's why I guess I worry for the profession and I didn't really understand why didn't think they saw action thing would have been twenty per you guys. You could add a even a real mortlock or at least somebody had been talking about something you know but I guess the I don't see it happening in basketball or winter sports. I do see it happening for this spring sports you know and and it should. How how you dealing with your your team like academic amicably. How you deal with Nike Golic Xavier. Tell me in terms of trying to make decisions that are going to impact in his life. Yeah have you done with that in this environment? You that's been really difficult. I mean I called the NBA office right away. Because aren't check Josh. Do but right now I mean last year there were two hundred and twenty guys put their name in our leadership will be five hundred. You know it. It's going to be the race. Who gets to the NBA? Who GETS TO THE PORTAL? I big race but I talked to savior and then I talk some people at the NBA office. And they're all you know everything's getting pushed back and they they use those conference tournaments to really cross reference with their scouts and then they use the NCAA tournament a lot. You know 'cause they wanna see all players play under pressure so I don't know how they say there's GonNa be no Chicago. Probably they're not going to be bringing them in. I don't even have to push it all back. So that's been hard and then the agents and everybody jumped in there and who's telling what you know the truth and it's It's been difficult. I think especially for the underclassmen you know. I think there's GonNa be a slew of kids. Put their name. And I don't know that's going to be good bad or indifferent but we're just GONNA try to. I'm just going to keep trying to call. Gm's that I know and can try to call the lead different teams in the League and just get the most educated opinion but boy with no Chicago in no no individual workouts. Man is a lot of guys a chance and not get drafted. I don't know how that's GonNa work. What do you do recruiting you got? We got zoom. Yeah Yeah you can do that or you. Just you don't just make calls or text and and But with no visits again you know it used to be Dan. Play to even up the last seven eight years. You know you're done what most of the year two thousand and twenty twenty one recruiting last fall now between all the transferring and kids going early. I mean people having recruiting into May June July for this year's So not been held at bring him to campus or not be able to go out. That's GonNa put another monkey wrench in things to and And you know I I. You know your place like Was IT WICHITA STATE? I think five or six or seven days or transferring Anderson Seniors. You know. I don't know how anybody who's GonNa feel the team but it's going to be different And there's so many kids that are in the port a lot. I don't know if there's enough schools to handle the kids in the Porto. You know you can tell them a big fan of that but Not and I I I still think these kids are GonNa get hurt by it because Some of them are GONNA have no place to go and that happened this past year. About one hundred fifty kids whose names written apart. I'll had no place to how do deal with your guys academically. I mean like like the left in the semester. I mean like Abbie at you. Make sure your kids are doing what they need to do. You had this conversation their kids that maybe don't have internet at their homes. Their kids that are living in situations where may go home better? A LOT WORSE. Obviously the the quality of life that they have on campus. I mean how you dealing with all that. What are we GONNA have? Kids are here. We got seven kids. I think that are here. And the reason is for just the reasons you said number one not being an areas where it's really bad and number two Having Internet and having Ability to skype resume or you know. They're getting tutored that way. Everybody's into the classes that they don't have to go to it. Seems good but it's harder to to to pick things up and if you're not a great student It's difficult so thank God. We have some tutors. That still stay back. And they're doing it through skype and and we've got about three weeks left the school and you know. Now there's big debates is going to be pass fail. These universities is going to be a combination of things. You know untrusted in situations going to bail out of unprecedented uh ways to combat it. I tell you though it's schools are a lot of kids you know. We had some really good students this year but we got some kids are working overtime. Went skype and that's the way it'll be in trying to get a tutor trying to get through their classes that way and Just do everything online. It's it's different easier for them than us. You know I can barely get online to say I love you guys but those guys are experts at it and they seem to be doing we try to stay in touch. I got each system has four guys kind of monitoring that barrier around with our academic coach. I'm GonNa tell you what I got to do. I monitored. I was the proctor of a Harvard Examination. The other day because my stepdaughter goes to Hybrid. Shed take tests. You said I need a proctor and let me help you. Young lady away. Yes Sir I let him my academic career practice ECON Bay. That's right well you know why people at Harvard. Your you can answer those questions anyway. Of course not what? They knew that your stepdaughter cheating. Because where she was getting there. That's right you're smart as I don't ask me lady don't Mother Right. I mean look I is is is Michigan. Let's say she has a class at nine. Am normally coaches? Oh is the teacher. Well you teach six class from your kids and a buddy joins a class per normal is. Do you have any ideas that can stay? That's exactly the way it is. I know here at Michigan Michigan State. Like I said we're we're looking at going here and I think all the schools in this state are looking to go to pass fail I mean they're just some things that are so difficult and and you know as you know eh the schedule during this season you can get behind him and all of a sudden. You know you've got this. That happened so it is. It is difficult I mean. I don't envy these kids. You know I think that's the perception a lot of people have out there. You know the old dumb jock well. Those days ended a long time ago. And it's hard for kids to go to school. Travel like they do play nine o'clock games and then you know still get up for their seven or eight o'clock exam the next day you know and I that's one thing I've always said is Kids deserve more credit than they get for balancings. Both all right. Here's the here's most difficult question. Kim. You're growing up growing up now growing up. Give me your four favourite college basketball players of all time. Dan Dockage Gardy. Michael Jordan was one of them but history of the NC Double A. Tournament. Yeah Yeah so yeah you know I said I. I saw where today's the day match gird slate. You know the champions that I I've just started college. It was the first I got to see. My college coach took me to it. I mean and Utah and we had I got a good seat. You know it wasn't like it is now boy did that. And then those breeds that you'd have still paid a million dollars but but I you know I got a chance to watch the Walton thing you know and that that that game when he Went against I think it was meant this when he was twenty two twenty one or twenty two whatever he wanted to. Yeah that's crazy. Believe OPPO A I I still you know. The Magic Bird thing to me was was special that game. I'm not sure either. One of them play great but I think those were two great players and you know I guess. I'm looking more at the past. And the present like coached the guys now and yeah you know all their awards the other guys. You can just see all their strengths. But I mean you know I don't know if you've put Jordan in there because you know it wasn't like the average points did a lot of things back then But shoot he played with Kenny Smith. Parkin's worth I mean. Like the guys played her. Yeah they were ridiculous. But wh what are the common ones that are that you're hearing we've I've gone with? I go way back. I go big Joe I go Pete Marich I go Ernie Day and who. Who's my fourth Dan? I fell asleep. All those guys. All you square this student rugby. Oh man I mean you're making me laugh. I laughed and a two week so margin beal the laugh when settlers talk and they were you know jump all after every bucket. I went all us. Bob Big big. What do you mean because Serbian the Berkovitz brother serving heroes? I played with that mark. Maguire yes Indiana Man Northwest Indiana. Not like we weren't all in on Hoosiers I was all in on G- wire and Teddy GRUBS and Conway. Those were Bo. L. Member Danny member when collider walked back from a couple of gain number. They always got beat the tournament. I remember that too man that was he. He got eight grimes. They were good though they were number. One in the country in date nineteen. They beaten date. He throws the ball into river. Walk back in his uniform to the hotel. Yeah those are the same job you tip. Saint Joe's beat the game right. Joe's beat them. Yeah Brad Greenberg assistant coach at Saint Jo's on nineteen. You know you're talking about. You're talking about the difference. I gotTa Tell You man you went to Utah. With your college coach. I would have literally if coach stab myself. Danny that's the that's the difference between big heading to go to the final four eight a freeze. That's what type thing. There was no alcohol. No ALCOHOL OUT IN UTAH coaches on Sunday Sunday as good as it gets our last one. Five favorite spartans expert. He's of all time. Yeah you've got to be on. Yeah I'd have to go with a guy named Johnny Green. Because he was a guy that walked on year and he could take a quarter off the top of the backboard any played in the League for fifteen years. A great guy from New York that comes back all the time still. He was a part of the fifty seven championship team You know magic. Cast the B one Cleaves has to be one for me because It did you know so much for me. you know he'd have to be in there You Know Steve Smith on resper. I mean I'm just looking at guys that I know that I coach. Gus Kyle you know as I was growing some of those days that was that was a hell of a time. He was a little crazy too but You know I you know. There's been a lot of good guys. I don't know who the best are you know. I'm still big and a great retail sir. He was a great guy. And and I'm sure I'm missing a bundle of 'em but It was You know it's been a good time for me. I'm sure you guys have more good ones that you're colleges. Although I don't know how many headed Saint Joe. Where did you go to college? Hackensack come on out fairly that was above your place. Believe me just barely Collingwood. Michigan's at least we football all MARIUCCI was doing something. There's football they're Har Harvard on the hackensack. Come on now. Alabama fishy going ahead of that late at US talking about. I mean I. We'll give you that. Indiana was best but I think I'm in second place and all that I thought he was always guarantee game as we appreciate you doing this now. We're what's for dinner tonight? Here's the question. What's what's cooking because I I just. I'M GONNA grow out see if I can do that. I'm just trying to waste time to be honest with Ya. College kids and But you guys made me laugh. I want to tell you how the left much lately I do. Miss that tournament. Don't you guys talk? Yeah Weird Man. It's just This is this is still one of the greatest dimes. Even my football buddies. They all say. Hey there's nothing like march madness and I think it's true and let's just hope we all you guys make sure your families are safe Keep them healthy and Hopefully in a couple of weeks things start turning thank God steroids man. Anybody all right guys pick guys take tell you one Michigan State Story. Of course whatever you like. Let's put here so we beat them and Co Sny. We'd lost the game before and he told me and got chuck friends that we were going to be two coaches. He didn't come to practice in the assistance for two days. We had to make scouting report in the whole deal right literally we go there and we beat them and in the locker room at old whatever the place was called Jefferson Denison. They had in the locker room in the bathroom. You had to go down the hall and it was kind of shared with the wreck frills. Anyway I walk in after the game into the bathroom and the toilet didn't have walls. It was like prison right. I mean it's just show commodities just out there right so I walk in and coach nights on the toilet taking a big feeling pretty good and he looks up at me he goes. You got your first win tonight. Dockets as a head coach. I go man I cannot talk to you on the craft. Talk you on the crap. I May Have Gone Pete outside. I don't know but I was going to sit there and talk to you. Don't get anywhere else. This telling you that much Taylor bed anywhere else. Alison that's incredible. I did not know where that was going. And I'm pleased to say turn. It did say everyone at home. Please be safe. Listened to the medical experts. Stay practice social distancing and As they say on TV every night together. We'll get through this House. That yeah and get a big bottle wine kangaroo brexit bring out the good stuff thank you for listening to courtside with. Greenberg and dockage. You can listen and subscribe to all. Espn podcast in the listen tab of the ESPN APP including the latest from the NBA. In the WHO collective podcast available on the ESPN APP or apple podcast.
041 Eaten by a Whale
"Hey everyone welcome to snarf talk with Chris and Jerry and this is our podcast where we give you a behind the scenes look as we create a comic book. We're going to talk about TV movies Comic Books Wchs and hopefully I have a lot of guests the writers creators and friends check US OUT SNARF COMICS DOT com you can check out our blog and follow along with everything we got going on also follow us on instagram twitter and facebook at snarf comics and please subscribe and leave a review on itunes enjoy the episode Sir. Hey a here we are again. We're back in other day another night. Another SNARF SNARF talk weekend edition. This one is this is a rarity garrity for us in the in the podcasts world. Normally were a weekday weeknight only podcast yeah recording life. Why is that our lives so business lives busy? I'm a bit of a Social Butterfly. You are you really are big time but it's like a monarch the monarch of butterflies you're getting killed off though so why aren't they making a resurgence now you had like a huge monarch butterfly kill in front of your house. What are you talking about? Marley put up a snap chat of bunch of dead monarchs all over your like in front onto your guys must be the bats I think you it's your non. GMO crops or you know it's your GM. I don't farm anything around my house so well. It's whoever's fall don't they have. I thought monarchs were making a resurgence are they. Those they migrate Monarch Migration we tell you monarchs yeah. Tell me right insulting and this get all one hundred two percent wrong but what I believe to be true is that they do migraine factor about that. They fly to Mexico to this one mountain where they reproduce produce okay that's where they all go and my parents went there to middle in the middle of Mexico middleware in its I mean people go there to see the the monarch migration okaying but it's in like central Mexico in a mountain range and it's really pretty place but the monarchs our goal there and then they fly up north for the season. I just read a thing about monarchs recently one of them. It's the fourth generation of a monarch. That does the migration are you. Are you kidding me. No you're talking about the playoffs. No I'm not well. I guess it would be the monarchs works talking about the Monitor the fourth generation of a line so it takes them four generations to get there not to get backer acker known to be the one that flies away really what do they do in the winter die. I don't know but that's it was a national geographic. The winter holiday come back joke. No I don't know they hibernate somewhere so anyway back to my story. They all go there. That's their breed uh-huh and then they fly back. Maybe it takes multiple generations according to you monarch but they only like eat the milkweed right. It's like they're only only food source milkweed so there's more than one food source of well. That's the main one so the problem was there was no milk weeds Blah Blah so so now they have this like the monarch trail so people all along their migration pattern our planting it's the project people like can roll and be a part of the project and they plant milkweed and if you're in the area that's along the monarch trail people and I think even the government are we in the monarch trail. I think so yeah yeah hurry plantain yes. My mom has tons of milkweed around her house. She grows it like instead of flour. She has milkweed drives me insane no way she purposely plants that you are correct sir no way she does yes that's strange yeah and then they also have all these. The government has these pollinator plots that's right and then and I'm sure there's milkweed than their whole bunch of it. I thought about having bees are really like even bees because because of that policy so we used to have a guy we didn't do it but on our property he kept peace. I think the things used for hives are still sitting out there in the woods really yeah probably probably not. I think they were plastic. There were like plastic barrels or something along those lines like in a frame system you can have them. I'll take him start keeping bees so to keep bees to the only reason I thought about it is because Gary was putting in that pollinator plot right down the road from me and I saw a product. It's it's a guy started making beehives that are completely like see through and you. They're all made out of plastic and there's there's comb honeycomb. You know like the comb structure is inside of the hive already so when the bees go in there they just fill the column. That's in there once it's full of honey. There's just a handle on the bottom autumn you turned the handle and it breaks the coma part like the brings it up all the honey drains out valve at the bottom and then when you're done with that you you turn the handle back it puts it back together and there's very minimal disturbance to the actual comb and they don't have to rebuild much can get more honey each year because the attacks and everything's still in there the honey just drains out itself and you can see it all so yeah. I've seen similar hives or whatever that you can buy bye tapper. That was easier because you need like I don't think you need even be suit. Why think still announced of flying because you sneak sneak so probably prowl sneaks Nick Snake Yeah and he turned that handle you put a jug under any slowly but I I really want to do with the the Little Bank Yeah WanNa do that? Low smoke at them. Yeah you should just go out there with your pipe. I've got multiple multiple types. You know we saw some pretty nice pipes. Whenever you're at the Brisa we did check out Danny boy pipe shop yeah and they have everything Asia they saw an amazing myriad of like flavored pipe tobaccos a smell and taste amazing but the pipe like craftsmanship in itself is is amazing and I'm really kicking myself that I didn't buy a pipe while we were there? We were a little intoxicated. You're great video video and it will it will be released eventually. You're going to be a little while but when we're in contact in the pipe shop and it was towards the end of the day and and you come around and I'm looking at this pipe it's like Sherlock Holmes pipe and I'm expecting it and you come around and you look at me and you ask something I think and I look for all I said was Chris. What are you doing and I looked to the left? I just looked back camera. You getting yelled at looking at pipes. It's so funny so you've built on yourself at that point man if you haven't done your neck out our wizard world. I guess that won't come out because Oh yeah no. We'll have it out by now. I'm so yes we got the wizard world recap on them but that's the renaissance very that's the renaissance fair one and that should be out. Maybe by the time this podcast but like I said there's so much content there that you're gonNa have to rifle through that. I feel bad for you about that's okay. I still got wizard world content. We got interviews reviews and stuff. So what we're talking about. Here are amazing YouTube Channel YouTube dot com slash snarf comics. You need to get there. You need to check it out hit. Subscribe some videos. Be There Be Square. We got we don't have like a huge amount of subscribers yet because it's brand new and we brand spanking. I looked the other day and we had eight hundred hours of content. Listen to on it or something lower yeah some insane amounts or eight hundred. I don't know it would have to be minutes. I mean Howard anyway so it's pretty cool also also on the screen right now. CHECK IT OUT YOUTUBE DOT com slash counters so check that out also instagram Graham at star comics and facebook comics and what we just recently did. I know I was going to bring that up. We just I should say we you just put put together our Patriot yeah. This is really exciting guys. We have a patriotic and we had our first patron today today. Let's talk a little bit about Patriot so so 'cause a lot of people don't know what Patriots and so Patriot is a service of website if you will I think there could be a bit of a stigma against Patriots is there. I think there could be to some people to where it's like. begging for something thing which we're not no we're not doing that. It's more of a support system. We're supporting for content yeah so what it is. It's a website you can and make log in and having account and all kinds of creative people whether they be podcasters or artists or are craftsman or attack people. Whatever whatever you want you can put a project don't there you can put your business up there? In our case we put SNARF comments up there. Patriots dot com slash comics and what you do is you become a patron of that that person or that business and you can donate donate money to them but it's all based on like a subscription model so there's tears that that you have we have on our Patriot on page and they have five or six years something like that and it you can be a patron of ours for as little as one dollar a month who know once you sign up and he put your credit card information mation in it's just automatic like every month it deduct a dollar and they take a small percentage five percents or something like that and we get the rest into our account to a US to help produce the show so what we're going to do with an why we want patrons is a we we're we're going to finish our comic book and having produced so that includes hiring artists hiring Colorado's hiring not probably an editor but let arrests letter better color cover artists. I mean there's a lot of work and then on top of that. You have the cost of printing the actual book it turns out. That's something so in case people understand comic book to produce. If you're just a writer like we are and you're not an artist to Indra sorry I cannot draw on a very very very very very cheapest side to hire artists of color and a letter and sometimes you can get one a person that does all those things but on the cheap side. You're talking about minimum of one hundred dollars. A page in our book is going to be roughly twenty four pages and most comic yeah about twenty four pages so roughly about one hundred dollars a page on the low side high end would be to fifty page. Let's go with one hundred dollars page so in two thousand four hundred dollars to produce one book alone and then that's just for art get and then the printing cost you're looking at probably in the neighborhood of of a dollar to two dollars a book probably closer to the dollar. If we get a large around yeah we could get so if you're thousand books there's another thousand dollars so it can easily be twenty five hundred honored to five thousand dollars just to produce one book with minimum which we can then sell but never make any profit on so. That's why there's there's no money in this so to help us. We're just trying to offset costs you. These goals you can sign up for our Patriot and also for our podcast to help us. If we wanted to hire editors or Youtube Channel we had to have editors. Are we want to do advertising or anything like that for production and then production you know all all this equipment costs money but also like we have to pay for hosting. We have to pay for a website. We have to pay a lot of things so there's lots of costs and this is definitely not free. It's it. It costs a lot of money and that's a way to support us. If you like what we're doing and you want to donate just think of it like donation really. It's basically a donation for content that I hope you love but like just a donation because at every tear that you subscribe to receive a benefit yes so what are our tears Jerry we have. Let's see so very first at one dollar. the one dollar one I'll get to it is a SNARF surf a SNARF SURF and SNARF talk stickers. That's what you're GonNa get will send you SNARF talk. Stickers is in a bundle and any new stickers that we create or make whenever they are available always get them anytime we get a new sticker. Yes we'll send you one in the male. You'll also right off the bat. You're going to get up a bundle of whatever stickers we have around here. Yes and access to the Patriot exclusive activity feed so when you have have a patron account. It's an APP or website you when you're a Patriot somebody you get access to their feet and it has post recent posts on stuff we're doing. I don't know how active we'll be out there about keeping that but we'll do our bus you'll get that and I look at exclusive snarf talk or snarf comics and SNARF talk content will make sure you're the first to know when we have new projects merchandise and contests in the most important thing about the one dollar level that you receive is that warm fuzzy feeling inside when you realize you're helping support us and helping US produce our comics and a medium that we truly love absolutely so without further ado let's get into the real meat potatoes okay SNARF VASSAL SNARF vasa level to our five dollar level five dollars a month breath. We'll get you patriotic exclusive startup snarf talk bonus episodes yes so all of this stuff from the first year plus bonus podcast episodes which we might release at least one a month where you for that I mean we already have some. We already have some in the can we get some in the can that we can throw out there anytime in there something and you will only only be able to listen those episodes. If you're a patron at the five dollars a five dollar. If you are a SNARF vassal you will get these exploits wait. There's more yes there. Is You also get what was included in the first tier so those sticker bundles the exclusive content for the Patriots Page you get that along along with that snarf talk bonus episodes stuff and there can't be more Jerry there is more behind the scenes SNARF comics script up two pages for Jetpack Samurai and forthright yeah we will send you the script pages and you can read them and see what a script looks blake before it ever even comes out like this is what we're working on. This is what we've already worked on. You will be able to read and see how a comic book has created basically from the script. They can't be anymore right there. Is Oh my Gosh Chris to the five dollars here. This is the five year snarf comics art be the first to see new concept pages his pencils inks and finish comic so when we start getting pages drawn as they come in from artists to us we will put them in our Patriot on yes. Yes it will alert you that there's content in there and you'll get to see the drawn pages as they're released. Pencils inks whatever we get done. That's probably all we could probably do right right like that's all we could give people is there. Would there be any more than this anymore. Tears Yeah No. I don't think so I think there is oh could be a SNARF night. A SNARF dark night ten dollars would make you a snarf night so think about this thing how much money you waste at a gas station ten dollars about how much money I I waste at a guest for the cost of one pack of cigarettes a month for the cost of a couple scratch off tickets for the cost of a couple monster energy drinks to to five our our energies cost me about nine dollars so don't get those two to five our energies instead become talk. I would just become a SNARF night and you're GonNa get hopefully everything we just talked about in the first two tiers the first two plus SNARF talk t shirt. You're going to get a t shirt. We're going to send not shirt on top of that. If we ever make a new T. shirt you're getting your and he's t shirt we make and we're GONNA PROBABLY GONNA make at least one T. shirt a year. Yeah Oh yeah easy. You'll get it for free. Well not for free because you got to pay the ten dollars a month but you're getting it because of your ten dollars subscription and then oh my gosh there's more for all of this autograph physical copy of Comic Books that we produced so if we when we get as available Jet Lobbies Hack Samurai published or fourth worth Reicher anything we get published you will get the actual comic book autographed. We will send it to you you own it. That's right there. Probably a five dollar value alone church sure the book itself. I mean the book itself is now I would look for us to be producing more than one book a year but no but you're going to get it and it's going to be autographed often. You'll have it forever yeah so there is a whole `nother tier after that and I want to point out really quick snarf night the ten dollar because one dollar fun I'm great thank dollars. Bonus episodes very helpful the ten dollar that's where he really helping us hire artists and color type. That's we're we're making a dent yeah. If we got ten people doing ten dollars we're paying for pages shirt pasia pages of art that are GonNa be finished and done we could just write it off. It's done yeah so now. We're getting within some of my favorite tears yeah the Duke and Duchess of snark senior it was called Duke of snarf Duke Assign as I was finishing the Patriot cow. I thought this is sexist. You're super sexist to that so the duke or Duchess of snarf however you overcame that if you're a lady or a woman that wants to be called the Duke Duke Yeah. You don't have to be like a duchess. If you're a a big burly man that wants to be called the Duchess Duchess right to your face in fact if you are a big burly man and Wanna be called Duchess every time we see you for the rest of your life we will. I'll get right up in your grill say duchess. You know that's fine. Oh this is my favorite one. My favorite remember every single time. We talk about a tear. Everything everything that we've just discussed that came before it is included. You're getting all of that other content along with what is listed in the tier. What's listed in this list? Here is what I liked too quickly name the bundle Oh snarf but what it really is a monthly subscription box yes so oh you know they're like the hottest thing in the world right now a monthly subscription box of of kind of comic books or comic related merchandise not ours we will but we will carefully curate comic books and merchandise anything we come across. We're going to put out for those that levels driver riber. We're GONNA put a box together and ship it to you what you're GonNa do is. You're not going to get a box every month. You're going to get a box every two months by two months worth of stuffing it okay so ship them out every other month just to save on shipping cost. This is only if you live where in the United States in the United States. WE'RE NOT GONNA ship to like like Australia. Maybe we'll do Canada. I get it costs candidate probably but like overseas shipping is very expensive so how we're gonNA manage this is we're going to get together once a month me and Jerry. I'm going to say hey we gotta get ready for our bundle of SNARF so listen up though this could change because if we get a bunch of Bundler SNARF or Dukes six in duchesses that are subscribing to Patriot. Maybe we'll ship them overseas. Maybe so we're going to do is get together once a month and say hey what do we like. What are we reading? What herself that we really like in the past yeah? Hey we really love swamp thing. Let's send out the first book the swamp thing alum more series or let's send out the the newest Batman comic because we really enjoyed the top news time King Batman Comic Yeah so you might get a comic book. You might get a you might get up hop. I don't know you might get anything. Everything is cool and you know what else you're going to get in their stickers a t-shirt all extra content extra podcast when you open it up contents GonNa hit you in the face from Santa after yeah so and you get your t shirts every time we make a teacher. You'll get one of those so bundled starve school because honestly we're going to spend right clouded much on that as as we're getting won't be honest. We won't if you're paying twenty dollars a month and we're we're buying stuff every month. We're probably GONNA Let's be real guys this business yeah. We'll probably spend like ten bucks on a box right something like that. I don't know we'll see but again. You're getting stickers tickers a t-shirt extra contact. We're talking about so if you find something really cool. We grow like reports thirty dollars whatever we'll go negative we that's okay so there can't be any more us. There's a whole `nother Tier Chris that you're forgetting it comes after the Duke and Duchess it's it's called Lord and Lady of Snark Foul Ri- that's above Duke and Duchess. I don't know if you know that it is a carefully researched that good because Lord and in a lady I mean come on in call me Lord. I feel pretty privileged so we're GONNA get everything. We just talked about including the subscription box but you're gonNA get a a premium upgraded bundle snarf yet so we're just gonNA put more expensive stuff in it right now. There's probably bigger books. Maybe graphic novels something like that probably instead of getting a single issue comic book. You'll probably get like a trade paperback yeah which is a collection of five or six books it could be the whole rough could be the old rock okay. We'll see also. There's another thing you would get. Oh what's that a premium upgraded a premium upgraded. You Know Comic Book Bundle SNARF. You'll you also get a guest spot on this podcast will you to come into our smarttalk studio and actually be on the podcast. Yes you can and and can be on the podcast as a as a guest as much as you want. Yes frequently as you want whenever maybe not as frequently every day of our our lives have you on on an episode and then we'll have you on occasional guest whenever you're around town or it's convenient so frequently elaine frequently yeah a frequent guest. We've had frequent guests prior gathers like a dude. You could be like a young Nathan you could be pagoda. You Dude be put iota. You could be pagoda to yeah we could be Alex. He needs a nickname. He's he does Alex think of a nickname all right plus. There's more guys there's this is the fifty dollar level number this the Lord or Lady of Star. You'll be a podcast sponsor answer which means you have opportunity to advertise on the podcast. If you have a business or aware that you're a widget if you will you're selling yeah it would be like maybe like an at sea project. Yeah you can advertise on the podcast. We will call you out in as a sponsor of the podcast on our website site anywhere anywhere. We're GONNA. We're GONNA section are pockets that sponsors love your logo a logo. Whatever whatever you want we'll have signed available on the website basically advertising sizing whatever you for you if you if we have a booth we'll have a banner logo on it and there's more one more yeah included on a special? Thank you and credits page of any future comic book we publish your name is going to be on so in any comic comic book generally. There's like credits like a movie either in the front or the back but we'll have a whole page a thank you page will will list out all of our sponsors and you'll be every single book everybody that comes out. Your name is going to be there all right and that's it no. It's there's another level. There's one more there's another love. We have one more level. It's the last one because you would be the king and or Queen Yeah. That's the hundred dollar a month level. This is like the ultimate yes. It really is you thought there was nothing higher than the upgraded bundle snark premium upgrade it right premium upgraded Bundler snarf well. There is Super Premium Platnum ATM Bundler SNARF guys. We're just going to spend more of that money that you give us buying more awesome stuff for putting it in that box and sending tat that we know you need it. Don't know you need it yet. I know you need it. You might get silver age rare graded it comic book it could be it could be one month. That would be very expensive but you'd probably get you'd get a solid two point four spiderman yeah you. You might get if you don't if you're not gonNA comics you might get well. It doesn't matter what you're into working on to great this. We're going to create curate it for you and you're going to enjoy it. You no kidding. You might get a frigging ipod shuffle. I don't know could be maybe a zoom if we find a gadget. We like I was on that. We're using zing in her house. We might put it in there because this is the premium upgrade. We're just GONNA put riddick anything cool interesting that we find. We're GONNA throw it in that bundle you get the satisfaction of being a true patron of the arts yeah. This is like the renaissance period you know it. All those artists were living in like Vanessa wherever the artist live is that where they lived Venice Rome Venice Beach Florida that's what Beach Virginia Yeah when they were when Michael was Peyton the the Sistine Chapel inside the Capitol building in Washington. DC They all had patrons was that all of that was they all have patrons so those artists they didn't have they had they were supported by rich people. They were yeah rich people giving the millions of dollars just inflation. We're only asking glad you did that. Guy was worried that you were adjusted for one hundred dollars a month. But what does what do you buy for one hundred dollars a a month nothing. It's really not that much but you're you're GONNA get more. You will have your face emblazoned and your likeness represented in any future comics we produce to be clear that means you will be a character in any comic book that we produce here here on out. Your face is going to be a comic book character in basically every comic book we produce now. I want to clear this up a little because fusion so for example Jetpack Samurai set in a different universe correct so we got a dodgy our main character yes with his Samurai sword and his his jetpack and he's fighting the villains and he's frequenting brothels. He is in the corner of that brothel is not going going to be a character named pagoda. No well actually yeah. Actually there might be there. There's not going to be a character in that that frame who says hey that's Davidson top right. You'RE GONNA be a different character but it's GonNa be your like this year. Look like because we're going to be able to hire an artist that can all you. We're going to send them your picture. Yes and look I mean we put us some interesting situations it would be. That's really cool. I think that's really like the back of a Volkswagen and it at this level not only can we hire artists colorist and editors. There's we can also hire producers editors to help us on the PODCASTS that Youtube Channel release even more contact we will have the opportunity to advertise and truly grow. Oh the channel the podcast the comic books everything we're doing it will absolutely help us. I mean with one month. We will be able to pay for a whole the whole page of the comic book done so I mean I get a lot of people are GonNa go to the one hundred dollars. Remember those levels. We're going to spend a bunch of that money buying stuff to give back back to you so a lot of that money is going to be used but you know even the five dollar level level the one dollar level the ten dollar level their help and that's a minimal thing and if you do enjoy the podcast or videos or our blog or hopefully in future in comic books. That's nothing I mean they extra content. You're getting really does help so yes absolutely if you could do anything we would appreciate it. if not you're still going to get snapped. Outcasts still going to get it absolutely every single week and we're just GONNA look down on you. Every time we see you yeah if we look at you in the is ever since so. I don't know if I will surely going to call you a Dutch or a Lord so speaking of that blog. I made a blog bogged before you do that. Okay and once again I was patriot dot com slash nerve comics. Check it out. We had a patron sign up today and I want to give a special bank you and if you sign up to be a patron whether it's the one dollar level one hundred dollars we're going to show you on the podcast and thank you and praise you praise Internet praise David Timms. Thank you buddy what a nice dude and not only did he helps support our podcast at at a a five dollar level where he's GonNa get extra free podcast content yeah he's of ass and he sits in combine all day Yep. He's he's GonNa. We're helping him. We really are doing you a favor here but not only is he going to get all that content. David has in his past asked reciprocated artistic content on us he has he has bestowed on us his own artwork his own artwork drew my child and he drew me painted portrait painted Boba which is way cooler than your child it is. I guess I mean if your child was Boba Fett he he is. He's a clown didn't WanNa tell anybody this because Boba Fett clone right he is we've. We've quondam from Dolly the sheep so I just want to say a big. Thank you to David but hey you know anybody out there if you're interested in doing one of these tears you're on the fence just do it. I I really appreciate it though because I feel like it gives gives I feel like you have confidence in us to create the stuff that you want like you have the confidence to say like Hey. I like what you're doing. I Know Oh you're GonNa do a good job. Let's get an and also makes it. I mean okay. We love doing this. It's so fun but it makes it more more. It makes it easier to spend more time doing more of this kind of stuff that we love and justify that yes that's the justification of it because can be it's. It's a lot of work. It is definitely work and it can absolutely be a little bit of a What am I trying and say like a little bit of a financial burden yacht times to put money towards a thing that we just want to do in our in our free attack so to have something come back in to say like hey we can offset that cost because people enjoy this? That's a whitman if it's not everything we spend I still think that's a success and we're not begging for money by any means but if people are curious we had talked about the cost of the book being twenty five hundred to five thousand dollars an issue which is a significant investment which we will never get back back. You don't make money on the podcast also costs us in the neighborhood. first of all we probably a couple thousand dollars worth of equipment and in the neighborhood of one hundred dollars a month fifty dollars a month to produce yeah it's over fifty. It's definitely over fifty. It's at at least seventy five a month with the website and the podcast. It's at least so to continue so it is what it is like. I said this is gonNA and do it. Regardless yeah this is gonNA continue regardless of a patron or not but boy it would be nice if you do not want to donate to our patron and there's one very important thing can do if you'd rather spend your money on scratch off Lotto tickets lend support our podcasts. There's a way you can support us for free. Did you know that no it's by going to YouTube dot com slash comics watching videos liking them and subscribing. Yes I going to facebook subscribing and leaving a review snarf comics. It's by going to instagram slash narcotics and subscribing following I should say and twitter and in all of our media and leaving reviews and most importantly which I can't even forget go to the apple podcast APP when you're listening pod and hit review leave a review Ali written review not just a star review written review that helps us a lot so we're not discounting that that goes a long way to absolutely does so the begging our is over it is yeah. We weren't necessarily begging but we did want to tell you about. It and I liked reading those things. That's really it's exciting that it finally got done. Yeah it is that's really great but yeah I put up a new blog post. We haven't written a blog in a long time and this time I did because because of that one single moment at wizard world yeah if you haven't seen this moment you can go out our youtube page and there's a video on their called Jacko's world updated Rob Paulsen things EAC world something yes yes and it's a short not even short but it was short in real life but Gosh I can't forget I can't forget it. Literally like kicked kicked me back in time and it was released strange to have that happen. I don't think I've had a moment in my life that did that and I've made fun of my parents before and other people of age that talk about things from their childhood and I kinda rolled my eyes on like yeah. We know you know walked uphill both ways you know that kind of stuff and yeah. I know you like that band or yeah. I know you liked that show. I've never had a moment that threw me back into a situation into where I've made fun of people about but was so real to me like gosh I I really do remember coming home after school and watching Anna Maniacs in hearing those voices and then but that being done in front of me and just like seeing it like seeing the character come. I'm alive in a person boy. It blew me away. Would you say where does Amex rank on your list of favorite after school kids television program and you know it probably won't be that high. Honestly I liked the show enemy exit. It's not that I was such a die hard fan of the show by any means I liked it. It was funny but until that moment I really I forgot about it. You know it's not Batman the animated series wrote and like if you read the blog I talk about Kevin Conroy Kevin Conroy as the voice of Bruce Wayne in Batman in Batman the animated series on a bunch of other Batman movies animated movies and whatnot that moment is what I thought was going to be the icing on the cake and it was absolutely amazing. That's something I'll never forget to. I don't know what it is but when we we went and talked to Rob Paulsen it just blew me away because that it was such a small thing you know like it wasn't a huge show that let like blew me away when I was a child but the moment did just because it was something that I just remember forever like I'll just remember those voices this forever yeah it was it was really cool fun. I was definitely on the top of my list. We were before we did this. We didn't have a lot of topics. We were trying to figure it out top ten list. That's so we should have done yeah we should have but I gotta list here I can. I can just re bring out. Okay yeah our childhood. I'd like to see what what were your some of your favorites ritziest without me without me. Okay so definitely Batman Gargoyles Anna Maniacs I had always loved like Chippendale operate Chippendale Risk Grainger's favorites and shoot. I can't remember the name of it Tailspin Tailspin. Yeah I can love Tailspin but then there was also a dark wing duck yeah and and let me think what's that one there was a another really weird one. It wasn't on very long. It was on Fox freakazoids the freakazoids yes. That's why just figured that out. I don't know why either but I used to watch freakazoids all the time and my mom hated my in my dad. Definitely would never have stood for that but yeah I liked all the ones you mentioned my probably one of my number one's would a ban. Uh the Spiderman series the ninety s c a never watched any which I'm rewatching now as an adult it had s- great really X. Men. The animated series is up. They're both of those for me were probably above Batman but also Batman was up there to definitely tailspin and and duck tales and I mean and for sure also tiny toons for sure love tiny an looney tunes I just need to here's some other ones that were maybe forgetting about. Oh Tommy just time I mean obviously I was a huge huge huge huge in a teenage mutant Ninja Turtles Series and both ghostbusters and extreme ghostbusters those. I don't think I watched original ghostbusters one. I think may have been late eighties early nineties but then they rebooted it in the late ninety s with extreme ghostbusters and it was like a new team and the old ghostbusters were like the older it was kind of a bad what's Bamut show where it's old Bruce Wayne Bam beyond it was kind of that situation and one of the ghostbusters astor's on the new team was in a wheelchair was a there's a couple of girls. I don't know they they diversified a little more but it was great. Show those are some of my favorites. Here are some other ones you forgotten about rugrats. I used to watch that a lot too yeah. That was Doug. I did watch Doug. They have boy meets world but that's not really Sabrina teams. That was like tiny toons for sure. I never really watched hey arnold. I didn't watch that much either recess good one to watch recess. I see one right here that I forgot about in its way off the Wall Street sharks. Oh Yeah I remember that structure it kind of the same vein as when I really liked a biker mice from Mars. I never watched that but street sharks was awesome. I used to have those action figures. I mean not to say nothing to about like. Gi Go GI JOE was phenomenal. You know I actually Saturday morning cartoons but yeah yeah they were and that's fine. ooh I got. I was privileged enough to get satellite TV relatively early in my life and cartoon network had a lot of good shows back then not the off the wall stuff that they've got now. They did a lot of good shows but they were older cartoons so I used to watch like thunder cats. Oh yeah gets he. He man but I watched thunder cats all the time and they also had a lot of transformers tunes transformers and Beast Wars. Remember those yeah be stores was awesome. Chippendale for sure was big one for me love that had the video game for Nintendo Great Video Game Really Shipping Yeah Rescue. I didn't have that of course I didn't have cable when I was a kid but when we did go to hotels we'd get nickelodeon and you get like are you afraid of the dark doc. I was a good one. Let's see Bill Nye. Love Bill Nye House Kid goosebumps give one. Did you ever watch shaw angry beavers. No that was a little too old for that dark wing duck goof troop forgotten about true true. Yeah Absolutely Watch goof troop. Let's see are real monsters. That was one. We only see in hotels but I liked that. Johnny Bravo. I've watched that a little bit that was on cartoon network the Honey Bravo Gargoyles for sure big one and I just bought the entire lerone gargoyles me and cash. We're going through it. I need to start watching it again. It's good I like it Pinky and the brain of course spider-man oh adventures of sonic the hedgehog. I I love that one yeah. I liked that. We're about Bobby's world. Did you ever watch bobby's world. Is that the one with the guy from America's got tally man yeah yeah definitely watch bobby's world so bobby was the enemy was the one with Louis Anderson life with Louie or something like that that was given to something yeah Bobby's Bobby's world yeah pepperoni pepperoni and apparatus and much too cool for seventh grade. We say that may be on some of the special content for a for a patron. There's one I loved that was on. PBS called Ghost Rider Ghost rider. I used to watch that yeah ghost rider and they would they'd like type in a computer to the ghostwriter of that show that was really cool that wasn't a cartoon in but it was no the mask the animated series. CNN ever watched that either watch that extreme ghostbusters we talked about. I don't remember that men in black series. That's probably after my childhood a little bit freakazoids Beakman's world it was like the knockoff Bill Nye and he had a big rat. Yeah I did not always ate cheese and was like drunk at his drunk. That was a weird show man. Oh Man Beakman's world that was really good. Yeah there's so many good the cartoons they don't one of my favorite one do you ever get to watch ren and stimpy and only in hotels because it was on cable yeah on MTV ATV it was I think an MTV show I did watch it. I definitely watch my brother would watch it all the time and didn't realize that really over it. I wasn't really allowed to and I think that's what the draw was for me is that I wasn't allowed to watch it so when my parents weren't home yeah I'd watch it was that time where there was making more adult cartoons like Beavis and butthead stint Peoria was one of them bunch of those on MTV. I think making Dari area movie really that's not necessarily I saw a trailer. The only thing that needs to exist about diarrhea is the cake song well I saw trailer and it wasn't a movie movie. It was Dora now. It's Daria it was with Aubrey Plaza. She'd be perfect. Thank air. She is Doria and I was like a real Darya so I saw the trailer for it but I don't know if it was one of those college humor skits Oh yeah it probably was but they had a full length trailer for it so need to look that up. I love tiny toons though that was a good one tiny toons was awesome so there is this one show on and it was before school so I wake wake up super early that I loved and I'm curious if you ever even heard of before school I think it was before school. I don't you ever watch anything before I woke up early early because I got super into this show and it was like one that was like a continuing story and it was a Japanese show it was anime. nope never would've called Ronin warriors. I know that name yeah I know the name but I I definitely did not it would have been nineteen eighty nine. Okay I don't know when it came to the US. You know what I'm forgetting. What's that the tick yeah yeah? I used to watch the tick all the time that was on Fox thirty to thirty two as well. I didn't watch much Batman Beyond and I feel bad about it. Now I didn't either I should go back and watch you. That was in the two thousands. I was in high school ninety nine. It came out. I was in high school. I wasn't because Chris says much older than me. I mean I would still watch that kind of stuff in high school but I just didn't watch that so I think when go like either before or after ghost rider they had where in the world is Carmen Sandiego love that show there was like rations of that show there was I don't remember the lady's name a black lady would sit behind the desk and she'd always be like where is Carmen Sandiego. That was her job but I think she was like typing. I like that show and also supermarket sweep. I didn't watch that bunch. Did you remember it's on Amazon now. We've been watching it with the kids. It's so bad didn't that the one of those guys that did a like a global guts type. Show yeah was the host. Did you ever watch those like global gut. We have nickelodeon. Oh my Gosh Hotel would get to see guts and like legends of the legends of the hidden didn't temple man that show is awesome supermarket sweep what was the double dare double dare where they went through the nose double double dare double dare double their global guts was with Mike at one gay. You always worry Oh Yeah Penguins Jersey Mike unloved like those all that's a good idea for the podcast and positive he's it was allergies idea the at the top ten game shows because I loved Games yeah and when we did finally get satellite when we were in high school that that was when the game show network came out. Yes I love the game show now so good. Did you ever watch beetlejuice. Yeah the cartoon the Kosher Yeah that was pretty good. I watched touched every cartoon man every cartoon space ghost coast to coast now. I'm very gable okay well so you didn't well. That wasn't really good. Show oh either yes it is no that was like an adult swim show. Isn't it not at the time it came out in ninety four. I think it relaunched like when I was in college. I remember that let's see there's more. I didn't realize there was a super mario brothers super show. Oh my gosh I haven't on DVD. That's how much I love that show because I'll tell you why that show was a half an hour but it was split in two in the first half would be Super Mario Super Show and the second I can half would be legends of Zelda really and I was obsessed with Zelda and I love this Zelda show and so I bought them all on DVD there. They're like I'm sure there are bootlegs or whatever but the Super Mario Super show at the beginning they had a real life Mario Yeah and it's like big fat. Italian guy dressed up like Mario. It's ridiculous. He was a wrestler he was like a WWF wrestler and he was Mario and and they Luigi to and they'd have a little skit in like live action yeah before that cartoon and then it would go into the cartoon this list that I was just looking at it was one onto a hundred it's on rancor dot com and they have rugrats as their number one pick. That's this voted on. It's got twelve thousand two hundred sixty one votes to be number one. It was good show I mean the simpsons came in at number. Two was was rugrats on because I saw nickelodeon. I saw the hit show we didn't have cable. I guess I only saw two hotels must have because the nickelodeon ensure but we did. We did good hotels quite a bit because you know we didn't just straight applying to our audience. We didn't get satellite tillerson highschool. I remember really went back and watched a now. I wouldn't put it past. There was a period of time when I was a kid where we were in hotels a lot because my dad was a speaker so we'd go across. We always go to speaking things and my sister we go with them and we'd sit down and watch nickelodeon. Basically that's awesome yeah yeah. It was pretty awesome inspector gadget. Oh yeah those about that. I watched that all the time to I was not a big Garfield K. O. I was love Garfield especially when the to the farm. Do you remember the farm part no like the second half of cartoon they went they had like a farm arm and Garfield wasn't even in it and I bought that whole series on DVD too. I got the whole Garfield series. I got tailspin. I got when I started having kids. I bought all the series and they'll spend I need to get. I need to get tailspin because I watched that all the time I had the plane it was. I had an actual plane. I didn't even know they made them. They did ahead the Tailspin and it was it was like it wasn't like kid like like the storyline very like heavy. Sometimes they would get get very heavy and emotional but it was still kid kid issue blue was the pilot like how did Balu become Pyla uh-huh and then the one the mechanic is from chippendales rescue rangers. Oh yeah which I think Balu Gadget gidget aged gidget that gadget yeah something like that yeah that was awesome and then it was the lady who helped her Jack The lady that owned the business the business because it was like going under yeah. I don't remember but I remember member like the Pepper Jack or it was like Monterey. Jack Monterey Jack was in two was the bad guy no he was like a friend friend of Blues adver that another mouse I thank you did you ever watch clerks the animated series I did not know I definitely did those awesome. Do Much muppet babies definitely. Did you really do one sucks babies out now that my kids have been watching it. It's terrible but you know what was awesome is the new ducktail. It's really good. Is it really I would-i Woodpecker looney tunes for sure I did watch a lot of woody woodpecker too and there's a movie out of Woody Woodpecker Woodpecker movie that's out right now and it's on Netflix that's been on net flicks for a long time and it always pops up it is the worst abomination of a TV movie. We show that I've ever seen in my entire life. The boys love it. It's it's literally banned in my household. I refused a lot of watch it because the the acting and the and woody like Woody Woodpecker in the cartoon was fine and maybe it's because I was a kid at the time and I enjoyed it but he is the the most annoying freaking bird I've ever seen in my life. It just not fun to watch. It wasn't fun to see. I was excited for it. The first time I saw who'll yeah we're GonNa Watch just moody what Burger because this is my favorite show. No it's awful I don't I got Super Hillbilly and you do yeah for real though I can't ha no. That was terrible yeah. That's it's not to drag on this segment but I'm just having a lot of fun with it. Because I found a bunch of other ones I watch because I did read like when we were younger especially when I was really young like they re ran a lot of stuff like woody Woodpecker looney tunes but there was all those Hanna Barbera shows Oh yeah tons of Hanna Barbera. I watched an obscene amount the Tom and Jerry like all the time Yep. It's one of my favorites but here's some other one all time. Here's some other shows this just nostalgic our I understand that we're just listing off shows does but the Pink Panther Oh yeah big time heathcliff heathcliff he was the generic Garfield sing it I can't he could feed if you're the one I don't remember he's gone don't that that that every want to if he could cliff huckleberry hound and the Cadillac cats huckleberry hound yeah yeah. I watched one of my favorites that nobody seems to remember. It's called Wacky. Races wacky erases absolutely the bad guy from the smurfs was always was that because he always had a garden well yeah yeah. He had the cat yet that was it wasn't a cat or a dog Dari member thousand good one. Yeah guardrail was always one. The main wants wacky races awesome yeah yeah that makes me so that's funny. Oh did you ever watch duck man. I didn't yeah I know it. What about seeing it? In reruns. I guess the smirks Oh yeah and the smurfs well of course we're like the ripoff underwater summer smurfs who came up with that. I WANNA be the guy who comes into the meaning is just ideas for me today. He's like well you know like the smurfs is really popular. It's calm calms snark. What if this underwater with a snorkel yeah the smirks but more of a snark that'd be that's a comic we would go? Oh no there's so many. Did you watch superman in a lot. The animated series I didn't I didn't either. I watched Batman but I never watched superman that much. I did a little bit I did watch someone like the justice there. There was a Justice League cartoon. I think didn't watch that much either. I watched the tickle out. Though I did watch that troop I watched speed racer Iran Johnny Quest. I didn't watch really either of those. I watch a lot of scooby Doo per sure yeah justice. League unlimited needed two thousand one two thousand six and I didn't watch that rainbow bright which one was yeah. I think I watched that. I don't know she I don't remember. I just remember the name I didn't watch it a lot of rocky and bullying Colada Flintstones Kim Kim bullying till flintstones constant flintstones going on. Did you ever watch the flintstones movie. We've talked about it. Yes yes John Goodman. Yes that's a good movie. It was good and then there was the flintstones back in back to bed rock or stone own or something. I don't know yeah broken bedrock. Remember that being good. Oh that was a mighty mouse yeah mighty Mo.. I watched the crap out of mighty mouse I had. VHS OF MIGHTY MOUSE REALLY I had a costume of mighty mouse. I was mighty mouse for a long time and uh yeah that needs to be on my list. I assure I I always remember. Tom and Jerry like I loved the time in Jerry's episodes when Tom and Jerry would get along Oh yeah for like some other threat team up yes. I don't know why the big dog or a different cat it was usually against the different like alley cat alley cats lay clerks yeah. He's the worst that was a good show heathcliff so anyway one of my favorite real quick. What Am I? Tom and Jerry's always be one of my favorite episodes of cartoon. Never my brother's obsessed with. I'm obsessed with the we've watched it so many times times is when Jerry's cousin. I believe it's Jerry's cousin comes by and he's a hillbilly. I tell you I remember that and he plays the guitar and I can't remember the song exactly because he says like nonsense words words part of it says Cramp Oh. I think it says that's why I started. Calling gram grams is because it was part of that song but I think he says Cram Rambo but he's just playing the song constantly and Tom's trying to eat him and he breaks a guitar string and he stops and he says Oh br my Qatar string and he reaches up and pulls off one at times with remember that re-stringing guitar but he plays the same song and it's one of the funniest things ever ever. I don't know why they get so funny. It's one of the best cartoon episodes you'll ever see yeah and they're so short. They're like ten minutes. I think seven or ten minutes I don't remember because there was like other things interlacing there yeah they would just keep playing different shorts were there other other characters like looney tunes they go for like you'd have an Elmer Fudd and then you'd have a foghorn Leghorn in looney tunes. I think the only I don't I think they're what foghorn Leghorn was looney tunes but I don't think there was with Tom and Jerry unless now because tweety bird was I was that was looney. Tunes Yester- was tweedy a boy or girl. I've always thought boy tweedy was girl you. You've just saying that because I said boy. I'm I just always thought it was a girl. There is a big discussion there my sister I've had a argument about that because she's always thought tweety was because she used to have like like posters stickers or stuff of tweety bird like you know that's a boy right now. She Says No. It's hot but I think it is yeah tweety bird yeah I remember that was a thing for a while Dawson. He's awesome Gumby Dombi. Did you ever watch Gumby Gumby. Show that's yeah. I'm remember like those types of cartoons from Ron. I was really little like that's what I was watching. When I was like four four and you were probably watching the real show because you're so incredibly wretchedly under the old I was watching it on in syndication on cartoon network in different shows on my awesome satellite dish gumby ran? There was a movie gumby. I forgot about that. I'm pretty sure they played out. How would they be was on Howdy doody from fifty five to fifty six so you're not no shoot drastically? They replayed it all the time flow. There's a revival from one thousand nine hundred to nine hundred eighty nine so I probably was a lot yeah see told you why haven't they rebooted Gumby. I don't know they should look at all. Those things we just mentioned that are rife for Reb Rain Green Live action dumpy. They did the gumby movie. I didn't know there was one yeah the gumby movie well. They did have a gumby movie. Yeah I just said it like ten seconds ago. Don't listen to you never do the gumby movie nineteen ninety five. It was stop motion. Animation live live action. It was a box office bomb earning only fifty seven thousand dollars at the box office. That's more than the fanatic produced by Fred durst stint starring John Travolta that's we should do a top ten list for favorite yeah after school or Saturday morning cartoons. Hey everybody that's listening right now. Tell us what your favorite ones are. SET GETS US your top ten less than then we'll do on like on an upcoming show and will read it and then we'll criticize you and we'll I'll get criticized terribly for the choices. Same goes for game game shows because we'll do that too yeah game. Alex Alex wanted to do game show yeah. That's right now. Game Game Sh- is okay sir. I underlined it so I know it's important we had there was some a little bit of news. Nothing nothing heavy but joker ochre. We've talked a little bit about joker. We did getting all the praise in the world. It really is to be a life changing event getting so excited about this has become the first comic book movie to Win The top prize at a major film festival Golden Lion at the Venice Venice Film Festival. Are they always in different countries. I guess they're not all Tim Venice Venice beach no like Venice Italy. I know that's why I said that's a different country. Jerry states does not own Italy no I I thought you meant like at the Venice Film. Festival was in a different country every year all right. That's what I thought you meant we will we we have not owned Italy ever we we might own Greenland soon but yeah we might that's a hot but joker box office projections which honestly using a pretty close. Are they feel like they're pretty close. Usually it's projected to be among the highest R rated movies of all time. I don't think that's true. What do you think would beat it? Well are rated of R. rated of all time all our all our time. All isn't isn't that cool. The highest right now highest grossing Oh sing are rated movies right. I think deadpool's way up there probably did it hit a billion. Oh my God it's a sad that the number one yes what it is. It's a horror movie it. No it is a horror movie from our childhood saw high school age. Hope Oh wait. I number one is it. I know what you did last summer. No it's on on this Walgreen. If I could get back to the stupid page now it was Blair witch project really yeah. That's sad number four sorry number one it number two exorcists number three get out number four Blair witch project number five the conjuring number six six. The nun came out number seven paranormal activity. That's a blubber adding is interview with the Vampire. That's a bullcrap list. That cannot be right because that's that says total box office. One hundred five million and deadpool was like a billion dollars. You need to get a different list. This is need to learn how to search Chris Forbes man when somebody gets Steve Forbes giving a break Mr Forbes Steve Forbes owned Forbes magazine Steve Jobs Does Oh yeah taught okay now Forbes just handyman. Let's take a gander at box office mojo which is more legit. That's probably got. Here's the number one and this one you should know Mel Gibson in the Patriot in zero or thirty five eighty in thirty ninety five. Ad Yeah The Passion of the Christ. That's a rated R. Movie Yet that was rated R. and that's number one according to box office Mojo domestic gross domestic only okay number two is that pool number three is American sniper. It just goes on from there that Matrix reloaded was rated R. in the top ten is Logan Beverly Hills cop the hangover and the Matrix reloaded American sniper it bunch of them okay. That's just domestic though international deadpool blown out of the water. What was what was number one then how much did did passionately Christ make three hundred seventy million domestic three hundred seventy million domestic? That's a lot I think it could be that comic book movies are going right now. On the way jokers trending and Joaquin Phoenix as the joker is a crazy crazy portrayal like I think it could easily beat that just because of the height w three hundred seventy million's a lot autumn on. I think there's a lot of people that will wait on it. I don't know we'll see I'm excited are waiting for it and we're going to talk road trip when you're coming with or I'm GonNa Forget you. Dude says he's going and going without you know dude also just got home from his two month hiatus where he's been been screwing around on walkabout out in Iowa walking about Iowa. We all love walking about Iowa yeah he literally they went on to bus month. Sabbatical defined himself whatever that means. How can you find the dude? You know like his introduce. That's what he just got back like. Wonder how much more dude he is. Now you think he's more dude ish not do enough to come to the show tonight right. That's where I'm GONNA say like. I don't think he's dude enough anymore. Did he lose some of the dude he could've. It's a possibility so instead of finding himself. He lost himself yeah yeah in a Cornfield Iowan Cornfield Rolling Hills of Iowa sorry yeah he didn't show up no he invited him and you didn't show up yeah. I hope you're listening to this dude. I hope you feel bad. He's not well not right now. No he will be we next week so we're GonNa do top cartoon top. game shows guys getting any other ideas cinema way yeah so we need them because we forget things all the time. Yeah go ahead safe. You forget guys can't tell we didn't really have any plan the discussion points for this one I did. I did throw together a list that was some on like unethical ways to treat a cat. Oh no that's a good one taught. That's what she threw together. UNSUNG comic book movies from the nineties the forgotten really yeah okay. I'd like to hear them the rocketeer here. That is a good one two good movie that has a good movie who was in that was what's that guy's whoever it is it should have been Brennan. Frazier Razer probably should've let me and everything when it comes to the nineties it should have been. Here's another one for you. Darkman remember dark man. I don't I love that must not be that good. Oh it's really if I don't remember it. Do you remember the most people probably remember the movie blank man. I do remember loving me. I had that one on DVD. I do remember. VHS actually let's see where's the cast. Oh my Gosh Jerry so cliff as Bill Campbell. Is that the main guy I don't remember cliff would be billy Campbell. I think I've said this on the podcasts before Jennifer Connelly's the first time I saw the rocketeer it was at dudes foods house. It was in nineteen ninety one. I went there for a sleepover we went to them his on market and here his mom let us pick out a vhs tape and we got the rocketeer tier really yeah. It came out like that year yeah nine hundred ninety one. That's why I said June twenty first one thousand nine Billy Campbell. What's he been up to lately nothing zero? He's done nothing zilch cash. He's on a couple of shows to nothing. Never I heard of them but Dracula enough the crow. Remember the crow yes. It's one of my favorite Brandon Brandon Lee yeah yeah. You can't rain all the time Eric like that's what happened in that Z. Yeah it's so great when he holds his hand up and shoots seriously ended and he starts laughing at while it heals backup. I freaking love the curl. My brother dressed up as the crow for Halloween one year here and that's what I was like. Oh my gosh as a child. I should not have been watching these movies so the soundtrack for the crow was a big deal right. Yeah it was at the time because who was it it was all it was like nine inch nails right. Oh Stone Temple pilots nine inch nails like that Kinda music which was big at the time but it's also a big deal because that's how Brandon Lee died he died during the filming of was the sequel no the very last saying of the movie that they filmed he died in because it was it wasn't the last actual scene in the movie but it was the last one they filmed and it was the scene where he stands up on top of the boardroom table and everybody's like shooting and begins. How does that happen? Something happened where for a blanket up projectile in it like the blanks had live rounds in there somewhere and he got shot by a couple of rounds and ended up killing him so I had the crow soundtrack because everybody did that the time listen to the soundtrack right. I'm not gonNA name the songs but the Kear Stone Temple pilots nine nine inch nails rage against the machine violent femmes. I mean how come the Crow Dude. I love that movie so much I went back and watched watched it recently who isn't a sequel because they recast was Edward Edward Furlong or whatever I don't know about that there was like three or four movies and then they had a TV show they had a TV show. Yeah there was a like a series show city of angels goals but was equal. Yes city of angels. Oh there's been so many there's a salvation wicked prayer. Oh Oh my God that movie is not the crow but I loved it. It was called dark city scrape man. I remember that anyway. Oh there's there's one there's one scene where one of the bad guys goes back like to report like they were trying to do some sort of hood hood lomax stealing something but one of the main bad guys comes back to report and they're like they're like wears tinted guesses tin tin has done don't perished. I don't remember the of always thought that movie what was the premise of the movie so a couple bad people on on Halloween. Basically it was like Devil's night they called it would go around and just cause a RUCKUS and burn buildings down and do bad things and they broke into Eric drivens house apartment really remember I love the show and they broke it. Eric driven south he had just proposed used got engaged to his girlfriend they rape and murder his girlfriend. They push him out of a window and he dies after the funeral raven comes comes in lands on Raven or crow. Oh Yeah it'd be a crow actually but if you read about a Raven Raven is like is is a raven a crow no there are two separate but a raven is thought to bring back the dead right so that is weird that that's why a crow so is a representative from the stand Stephen King. Both the crow is not the devil. It's something yeah something in that afterlife something with the afterlife bring back a whole book is allegory for the Afterlife Yeah Anyway so the crow comes back trying to figure out the crow shit well. I'm telling you I wanna I tell you what the premise of the movie is. Any like taps on like is just tapping on his tombstone. I remember that like brings them back to life want once he comes back from the dead he's basically invincible but if you kill the crow you kill him. Does the crow hang around him. The crows always with them flying around and then they the bad people start to figure it out but he comes back. How would they figure that out because there's there's like this witch lady that works for the bad guy okay and she ends up figuring it out because the curls always around and she's a witch lady which ladies and all that stuff yeah they do but he just comes back for like vengeance basically he just wants to kill the field him and killed his fiancee? Okay he was a musician he was so cool and then there was this young punk girl that wrote of skateboard around and she's always the one like this guy shows up you know he's got makeup on and whatnot what Nah he's standing in the rain and she hears him say it can't rain all the time and then she turns her eric because she was looking for Do you WANNA don't know how he Brandon Lee was shot in the scene in which Lee was accidentally shot. Lee's character walks into his apartment and discovers his fiancee had been in beaten and raped by thugs actor. Alex Massey's character fires a forty four Magnum Smith Smith and Wesson model six twenty nine. I have a three fifty seven Magnum Smith and Wesson model tooth fifty five made that but go ahead having revolver at Lea- as has he walks into the room a previous seen using the same gun had called for inert dummy cartridges fitted with bullets but no powder or primer. That seems like a bad idea yeah yeah that's really bad to be loaded in the revolver. Oh because you can see them yeah for close ups scenes that utilize a revolver where bullets are clearly visible symbol from the front and do not require the gun actually be fired. Dummy cartridges provide more realistic appearance than Blake Rounds of course which I have no bullet instead of purchasing commercial dummy cartridges the film crew hampered by time constraints created their own by pulling the bullets from live rounds dumping the powder charge and reinserting the bullets however over the unknowing left alive percussion primer in place in the rear of the cartridge at some point during the filming the revolver was apparently discharged with one of these improperly deactivated cartridges in the Chamber setting off the primer with enough force so there's no powder in there now just the primer to dry the bullet close to each other into barrel where it became stuck a condition known as squib load prop crew either failed to notice or recognize the significance of the issue in the fatal title scene which called for the revolver to be actually fire they shot a dummy dummy cartridge was exchanged for blank rounds shot the blank with the powder and shot the answer Richard Alive powder charge and primer but no bullet thus allowing the gun to be fired without the risk of an actual projectile and man the they that production company had sent the fire specialist home early who is responsible for the guns given to the property and who's not aware of the rule of checking all firearms terms before and after handling therefore the barrel was not checked when it came time to load the blank rounds which it usually would be since the bullet from the dummy round was already trapped in the barrel caused the forty four magnum bullet to be fired out of the bear with virtually the same force as alive route struck him in the abdomen and mortally would six hour surgery unsuccessful. Wow forty four magnum is not something to screw around with no not in the slightest that would be terrible. That's crazy easy but they continued the film wow they did and I'm not sure what scenes in the movie aren't Brandon Lee. I don't know either because they must have got the majority of that film done. They know it says a after lease they were produced producers were faced with the decision whether continue Lee had completed most of his scenes for the film and was actually scheduled to shoot for only three more days the rest of the cast and crew except for Ernie Hudson whose brother in law had just died stained Wilmington paramount which was an Illinois they filmed in Wilmington North Carolina. The Crow theatrically originally was a direct to video feature. It was apparently cash it blew up probably blew up because of that. They'll maybe I feel like is that we're sting sting. The wrestler came from I was staying in a wrestler confused thing the singer so I don't know no sting. The wrestler looks making no that I honestly thought sting the singer rustled. I didn't watch wrestling that is so ridiculous. No I thought that I I did you think he got lie in it. It was odd. You don't WanNA put red accent is it put out out. Put on Your Red Light Red Rock. What he's saying is like rat? Don't stop me from coming. You know sexually that in a way that could be misconstrued well. That's what that's what she say. You don't need to put on your red light. Roxanne get after it eighty one percent. That's enough crow talk but yeah it was a good show. another another movie has been kretek. Another one was mystery man. I do remember mystery man but I don't know if I've even seen it really last last year hankers area will you make macy and wow Jimmy Garoppolo Garoppolo and What's the guy's name the main okay? I don't come on Ben. Stiller was a huge cast was good movie is huge yeah so Ben Stiller was like a like a Wolverine Green appeared to realize you get really angry that was basically the premise of mystery men was there were a group of crimefighters but they add like really stupid powers. Yeah we're like no powers and Ben Stiller's character. He would just get like really angry and be like in just getting rages but I get like beserk mode but he didn't have the super strength or anything Oh. I didn't know you just get enraged at like resercher mode. Okay heynckes areas character was like he were like a turban and a Cape and his power was the through folks really accurately okay. Eh William H macy I believe he was a janitor and he had like a mop he would hit people at the mop something like that or like a hammer. Who's a handyman Dan something like that all right tools so he would just like yeah I mean literally anyone can hit someone with a hammer and it would do a lot of damage and the only one of the real our was Janine Garoppolos character and she had a bowling ball that was inhabited by the dead spirit of her father? Wow and Ed have had his skull inside of it. I can't remember but she would throw it like a bowling ball would swerve around and like people. I love that that movie that was a good one. It's good yeah it's really good well. I shouldn't say really good right. I don't think you should call it the mystery man yeah I liked that one. That's interesting a everybody should watch mystery man and we'll do a review of it if it's on Netflix or Amazon. Don't buy guys don't rent it. It's got a six point one out of ten DB. What's I got on rotten tomatoes? I I don't know nobody takes that state. Seriously really I thought that was the main one it is. It is mystery man. I like it six point one out of ten fifty nine thousand reviews. I don't think that experience good no it's not it's not very good. I hate computer sometimes anyway. Wow William H macy William H macy was the shovel over the shop. That's right. He had a shovel. Oh and then hank is area was blue Russia Raja other ones that were like Oh yeah. peewee Herman was in spleen. Glean gross is categorized. He talked with like a list basically like pimples and stuff. I and I can't remember I think he just smelled. Hurry farted invisible boy. Oh Yeah Ben Stiller was furious but invisible boy could never get invisible he would get naked can put anything that he was invisible. Hopefully this is going to sixty percent on rotten tomatoes. I mean that's a six point one right yeah yeah it's based on the dark Horse Comic Mystery Men Seven Lame Superhero wannabes are called upon to use dubious powers to save. I've bustling metropolis. Champion cities beloved Real Superhero. Captain Amazing is kidnapped Cazenove Frankenstein. That's that was the bad guy man it's good. It's funny. Everybody should watch it and we'll do a SNARF talked about it. We're going to have to check it out Elliott Greg Kinnear. He's captain amazing. Geoffrey rush is the bag yeah. Jerry can't be yawning on. I know I'm getting tired. I guess it's time to wrap this up. There was no more no that was it that was raining. There was a punch more. She give their alternate well. Unbreakable was unless easily the best mountain is the crow became in two thousand so you should know that I'm going to say the crew. Captain America was on there in the early nineties one remember that I remember kind of it. I didn't watch it ever really knew I have. I have a looks I've seen clips from it and it just looks absolutely I mean laid came out in the nineties but there were talking about alternative yeah something that you said forgotten while I also said Darkman which is amazing using you could probably put spawn and that list spot I would I would put spot on the spot. There's there's more we can on this list so okay spawn. We can talk about The mask came out in the nineties that was based on the comic book. A lot of people don't know that it's actually a really good comic book too but the Kaushik Book is Super R. rated it is yeah but then when the Polish yeah but like super violent but then the movie came out and they they're still running the mask and they did crossovers like the mask and Batman Crossover and a lot of things dark man is a Sam Raimi's movie yeah. It was a great movie. I'm telling you you need to watch Darkman nine thousand nine hundred ninety. I've take back Mr Okay. This is what we're GONNA do a six point four. We're going to start a new segment okay. It's called Star Talk Homework. Okay all right we're GONNA do we want never listener to watch two movies. Liam Niessen is dark doc man. Yes Oh my gosh. We're all going to watch darkman this week. Okay and we're GONNA. I'm gone I and they don't have TV's where you're going. Where are you going? I'm bringing my computer too. So where are you going Huntsville Alabama yeah they don't have TV's. I I don't think they do they do have a NASA museum racket Space Museum check that out I am I have been through Huntsville Alabama once and they have a rest stop off the highway. That has an entire rocket like the nineteen sixties Saturn Saturn. I think it is actually Saturn five actually really cool off and you can walk up to it and stuff but SNARF homework is and you got a couple of weeks to do this because Jerry is going to be able to watch the movie Darkman. We're going to review it on the show next show and we're GONNA talk about it and send us your comments on Darkman next show would be number forty two yeah so aw that's your homework now more ninety s comic book based movies that Warner as popular as Batman returns. The Phantom never watched it starring who will billy Zane. Oh Jeez. I know that because it was on his poster yes it's like when we were at wizard world. I love that movie you did. Yes why the remember it dude the tagline all these tagline for Phantom Slam Evil Slam Evil Slam evil wait. This came out ninety six ninety six six yeah okay I remember he's got that goofy heads suit. He's got a purple suit and the ring the phantoms old comic man from like the forties and he's got a phantom was a comic strip. I believe like Dick Tracy. Okay Dick Tracy more ninety s great the shadow Chatto didn't Alec Baldwin. He never saw the shadow. No Oh my God he had a prosthetic nose. It's so ridiculous the a shadow he had like a Cape right and it would make him invisible okay and he would like put a cable his face any of this big prosthetic Eric knows illiterate and there's a there's actually pretty good effects in the shadow. All these are going to be stark homework in the future because the shadows great okay. I know that I know that you had seen that at the Missouri market. I'm sure I'm sure. VHS Why did he have a big prosthetic Nelson Nelson. I'm guessing I don't know I really don't remember weird but only when he was the shadow would have the fake plastic nose. Oh so it was like to hide his face is but he also had like a band-aid over himself. I was Cape. Burma space like insurance got a Red Bandanna fine fine. She's just saying meteor man. I saw meteor man Eddie Murph- Eddie Murphy don't remember that movie though blank man when we talked about I loved had that on. VHS Damon Wayans I love Damon Wayans he's Hilarious and also a lot of like really big stand up comics talk about Damian Damon Wayans as being like one of the stand up comics of the time he doesn't do it anymore. He just quit he did how about steel steel with Shanna. O.`Neil Yeah based on DC comic. I never saw how about judge DREDD. Oh yes so judge dredd. That was a good one. St Shack was also Kazan Amu- was Kazan yeah show Zam. I am no no Kazam. I don't remember who was a genie right. No was it shows. AM or 'cause. I think it was Kazam Zam. I don't remember yeah 'cause. Am Nine hundred ninety six of course we talked about Captain America Nick Fury Agent of Shield Shield. That was the half even Hasselhoff yeah. That's most of them. There's a bunch more. I mean there's like black ax Scorpion. We'd like looks like Brigitte Nielsen. I don't know but there was a bunch of Darkman movies too. There's more than one tanker will yeah. I didn't love her watch that I was never a big fan of whatever her name. I can't remember what her name was. She was in Free Willie. I don't know that I've ever seen free willy to be all at all the way through I'm sure I did when I was a kid. Oh my gosh it's all built up to the last moment when he jumps jumped the barrier all I remember pre-release Michael Jackson ending their and then yeah the Michael Jackson songs playing the song. I don't know something good. We can't legally play on the podcast but it was a good song that everybody was like. Will you be there like free. Are you Willie Michael. That was the original blackfish. Remember blackfish documentary came out a couple of years ago and it was about like Orca captivity okay so that was like what people got people started on. Yes you're right ORCA train. You're right willy from free willy. He was held in what like seaworld in Florida probably I dunno where seaworld seaworld sounds like the worst. This is just me saying that's I've never been to seaworld but I've driven by Orlando. The one there it looks awesome really got like roller coasters. Some of the roller coasters like go in the water so you like legs the water when you go through great white tanks actually. Did you know you can't keep great waked in captivity. Why not they won't eat? They've tried it and every one of them has died because it was trying to like people at seaworld scientists people have tried to keep great way always scientists are she world. They tried to well whatever they're called of a Marine biologist that'd be scientists yeah they have tried to breed them in captivity and keep them in captivity. It can't happen they won't they will not eat but they can keep other sharks yeah like every other shark actually besides great white shark yeah. I'm sure they do actually I was just talking to somebody that was an aquarium in North Carolina and they ended whale sharks in there and they were swimming with them in their mouth. Wow that's seaworld really stepped it up. It's crazy I'd swim it of you. Know Wail shirks mouth. You swim inside its mouth. What if it swallowed you? If I knew I could get out here's what I always wondered about in Wales and this is going to make me sound really right like not sharks like great whites but like we assure great whites. I don't know I just don't understand the anatomy. Necessarily I guess not a Marine biologist by trade. You're not know George Castanza's the city was angry. That's the one God a great episode fives up onto the beast and I pull out a golf ball but Kramer yeah he was hitting because that's what he was doing. He was originally hitting him on the beach or somewhere and people were complaining about all the golf balls restarted hit about to the ocean yeah. He's like it's perfect. He's about to the ocean. I'll have to pick up any balls. I just keep getting free ones and then George saves away later in the episode. That is phenomenal. Go ahead. I have a bunch of floating golf balls from like. Have you ever been at Donna Florida. They have driving ranges. You hit onto like a lake and they got floating golf balls really and then they go pick them up with a boat. They round them up so I got a bunch of them and I keep them whenever it gets towards the Water Hazard Really Floating Golf Ball. Okay don't go very far yeah. They've not very dense now. They wouldn't be the same as a regular so what I was trying to say is I'm not on marine pilot biologist by trade okay I Dabble Yeah Saturdays and Sundays. They don't necessarily understand so like if you got into a Wales Shark Shark what a whale's mouth okay okay. Have you got new Wales mouth and swallowed you like is it all open inside. No I'm sure there's like just like your throat has so they avenue Safa gifts will your Asaf against also has a type of it is called US Victor Muscle that goes as you're right but that's the muscle is what that's called like. There's two different ones in your body. There's one towards your but that's you can see and there's one in your throat that will open up and let food okay so after you swallow food. It'll hit that people here. I'm talking about yeah well. I know what I'm saying is. I'm assuming they would have the exact same thing because bass too so. How big is it like a person fit down it in a big enough whale probably yeah? Could you travel down this office of a whale alive in the bus. You can find yourself in their stomach with room. Yes I think you could there's there's big enough stomach that you'd have room in there and you'll be sitting in there in the digestive juices like Oh my God. I got myself in a predicament here. I I think it would be tight around you but I do believe you would fit pretty easily but you'd probably smother before facing this information on. I'm basing it off of like the size of Wales and the size of you. There's no way that their digestive track is the size of a penny right or they eat plankton so they don't need much. They don't need much yeah so but like a blue whales. Heart is the size of a school bus so that's true oh so I guess they're not just hoping they're definitely that just a hollow cave. I think I was thrown off by like Pinocchio. Yeah you definitely one like at Sunday school. They'd always had the pictures do Aweil and he's just like sitting in their campfire. Yeah what was that guy's name. What is Joanna Jones yes Jonah and the whale what was the what was the circumstances that he found himself inside side of a whale? I don't remember why is that in the Bible weird stuff in there. There's a ton of the reason I bring up. The whole like the next thing is because bass will do that like if you let a bass actually eat your bait and take the hook in it'll actually be in their stomach then and once it's past that part you really can't get their hook out in the hook out and if you do you're gonNA rip basically their insides out on the fish. Will I'd be dead so I know that they have that closure. Their mouth is separate from bass fish and whales a Mammal Aweil Wales away. A little fish is a fish in a shark shark but they'd have to have something they can't just have an open passage from one end to the other so oh that Jones dude found himself inside of a whale yes interesting God sent the wail to swallow Jonah to save him from drowning. That's what it says in the Bible and you could he could keep him in his mouth while in the belly of the fish okay. Maybe not the bay say they fish but it's a well. I thought wheels were fish. Wheels are mammals do not mammals. Yes they are no. They're not a mammal you yes they are no. What are you talking about? They see the oxygen. They've got up blowhole. They're mammals not fish wheels amen amen you you. You shouldn't even have to look. I have two dolphins. Are Mammals. Wait a minute. You're you're going to like make fun of me for looking up if whales are mammals and and you think they just have a hollow cave inside of them I have reason to think that because every portrayal you see a people inside of whales they're making campfires right a a lot of people do that. Yeah no it's because they give birth to live young and they breathe oxygen and a hill have gills they have for they have longs things. They're mammals dude. They have for yeah. Did you know yes Wales for. You knew that I did know that I told told you I dabble in Marine biologist so you know these ridiculous facts but you still think that people sit in Wales and build campfires. I'm not saying that I obviously Said said that. I thought that they had this office. STOMAS stomachs. I'm just saying is the stomach so big that you could sit in there. I think as their suffolk is so big that you could travel down in. You know what I mean yeah. That's what I was asking. Obviously I don't think they're just open inside a row of teeth nothing inside. They have to have Oregon's Jerry. They have long. They've hearts you just said one of their hearts and I'm looking it up Smithsonian website whale L. Sharks probably can fit you down there Safa gas but mariners claim that sperm whales have swallowed people in the past and they live whale sharks overly big their mouths can get up to shark is a fish though yes whale shirk his fish and they listen to the sued they can suck in six hundred cubic meters of water every hour. That's why I'm thinking a person could just travel down it and hang out in there but I don't know says Might Take You back to Pinocchio Strip into the whale's belly for three days. Jonas sat in the belly of the whale until the whale took them to shore and through them. That's what happened to that. I knew that what about toothed whales whales have teeth. Yes whales have have teeth so there's a strain while no there's baleen whales okay that the Baleen is like the brushes in the front that skim all of the food out out of the water but then there's other whales like sperm whale has teeth because they eat meat. That's right ORCAS. They me yes but ORCAS are not a whale sperm. Whale can swallow giant squid hole so the chances are they could swallow human whole if if you can survive the being swallowed part and get past the teeth then you will find yourself inside of a complex digestive system this is according to the naked scientists dot com yeah if they go to human survive swallowing by a whale. That's the name of the article and I think what they're saying is the answer is yes. It's possible if you didn't get you know a whale or fish so the first question Shen is could a whale physically swallow US yes okay. Could we actually get into the gullet down there ASAKUSA. If you're talking about bailing Wales no probably not because they have very tiny esophagus. That's like a blue whale and humpback yeah even a blue Elza sophists. It's only reaches about ten inches if you stretch it so you're not as I am. No maybe a child. It's says in the article maybe a child so the two whales are the ones we're shooting for. Okay like killer whales sperm whales they do swallow large prey. They can swallow a large seal whole they can say swallow giant squid squid so yes you could end up. They have four stomachs like a cow really yeah. If you dodged through the digestive enzymes that will corrode your skin instantly okay. That's and there would be a lack of oxygen. That would be right Oh you you. He would just it would methane gas inside that stomach you would die lit a campfire whole man it'd be like it'd be like jaws where he hits the our air tank Don so I think we've solved this riddle. If you will that no you probably cannot survive being swallowed by a whale yeah. You can't survive it but it's possible to happen yes but the story of living inside the whale for three days unlikely don't see that happening unlikely especially if it was a baleen whale yeah you're not GonNa get past their first of all. You're probably going to get crushed because because what they when they sift everything in they squirt the water backout oh yeah so they suck in water and then they squirt it all out through their baleen so you'd get like crushed up against their brushes. Have you ever seen a whale like in real life. I don't think I have no I have I know I've seen Dolphin Yeah I don't. I don't believe I've seen away. Oh I think I've been on a will watching expedition in proximity four to six times and I've seen whales every time really one time in Seattle that area yeah I saw Beluga whales really there's Beluga whales off the coast to Seattle unless I'm wrong but something like white whale maybe I wasn't in Seattle by Saab Beluga Whales Okay and that one we were on like a six person dinghy so we were like right up. That's cool right up in there. I saw humpback whales sales in Alaska but now they've changed the rules so like the boats have to stay so far away that sucks right up by the whales but we saw him do detail flip thing and that was all I seen orcas in Alaska. You did Roy ells. I'd like to see we had a balcony room on the cruise ship Iran and when I at sunset onset me and Marley were sitting in the balcony watching the sunset and an Orca swimming from the sun towards us in the sunset. It was really he's got a video. I was GONNA say video because this is by the time I got the video role in like the angle had changed a little but it's it's clearly sunset and there's orcas and then we went on. I've been another Orca one where we saw him to there and then another time we went whale watching in Oregon uh okay and we went out and as soon as we got out of the breakwater like the weather change and it was massive swells though so by the time we got got out and we're a ways out we turn around and head back but everybody that was on that little it was kind of fishing boat but pretty good sized one yeah was like basically hanging on inside the little tiny cabin for dear life crying and I was standing out on the bow of the ship holding onto the thing no no way I swear to God it was the most fun I've ever had that seems terrifying you. It would drop down the ship would drop down and you'd be going down like the soil and it's like twenty feet above your head would see water. Is this wall of water and you're like well. There's just doesn't make sense how that can even work right and and then of course you go over right you go up you go up at over it and then when you get over the top it's just down. It was in saying I've never had the I I had a little bit of that on Lake Erie. I mean they were nowhere close. There were like three or four feet. I'm sure twentieth century but there are big and even doing that like three or four feet in that boat and how much the boat moved who I don't like that doesn't bother me. I loved it didn't make me sick. I didn't feel bad. It just makes me nervous like I just think of the perfect storm but then again like doc all those crab fisherman are out in yeah. They're like one hundred and twenty foot boats but it's not that big talking about giant way. The size of those waves is our it's insane. It's it doesn't even make sense when you that scares when you look at the Iran and the size of the waves it doesn't make sense. You're just like there's there's no right or does it compute or going to be dead and the crew. You would expect to be like another day right now. You know kind of freak it out. Oh no kidding we got back in and says it bring water in small boat Arcton. They gave us all refunds. Wow we did see anywhere else. Obviously oh no wheel so what is a whale. Do those waves down ride the wave. Maybe they gotta come up for air every so often. No I just think it I do think it's funny that that is so like treacherous to us yeah but whales just hanging out all the Fisher just like let's let's on. Why are you scared now because it's not a big deal now if they were on land and it was really windy they'd be freaked? You landed all it'd be. Maybe like this is bad but if you WANNA see whales and have the greatest trip of your life I highly suggest that's going to Alaska. I need to talk good so fun. I'd go back so the is the only place that you can really see Wales the Pacific Ocean like no I've seen them in the Atlantic. Nick you have yeah when when I was we went to the east coast of Canada which is probably next to Alaska. Oh my second favorite place I've been okay to Nova Scotia New Brunswick. Oh Yeah Prince Edward Island you go there. When we were in high school? My Dad had had the Cessna so we flew up into we flew up to Ottawa Ontario and over to Quebec City and then to Prince Edward Island Nova Scotia New Brunswick and then down the east coast. Just you and him now our whole family. Are you all fit yeah. It's a four person plane no not my just me and Mandy and my parents yeah my the other ones were in college right. Okay Yeah I would always I loved it first of all I I love like fishing on the ocean and fishing villages yeah and that's what it is on the east coast. It's not beaches now. It's all fishing fishing. You know you're sitting on a dock eating muscles and watching the fishing boats come in and out and it's very Irish rate so there's Pires pubs everywhere Irish music is like the main music ruin all the up there this all the Irish pubs have like traditional Irish music all the time and when we went to Ottawa Woah I on the whole thing it was busker fest which is like the street performer. I thought that was amazing. That would be pretty cool yeah. I can't remember the name the band we went to see this band which is an Irish folk band called like Deep Blue Sea I think they're recalled okay and so he's all that and I was great we went to Quebec city which is is like a fort city which is really a huge fort. Oh but then Yeah New Brunswick Nova Scotia unbelievable really fun sounds awesome and then I really love the west coast of Canada and unlike Washington and Oregon. That's probably my second favorite place. Okay British Columbia in Vancouver has got really good food. That's what I hear Alaska. Have you been Vancouver Yeah. That's where we went to the first couple of days before we left to go to Alaska. Oh Oh you did a lot of really good Asian food. That's strange. No that's like half. The population's Asian like John Really is and why why I wonder to have a huge like Asian population just because they're so awesome there yeah. I guess I've always heard good things about British Columbia up that way. That's awesome so I would love to go up there. I've been to Portland and one time in Oregon but that was Portland's weird. Keep Portland Weird but the rest of the toes of Oregon Amazing Yeah. It's really fun. Cool Seattle's really cool well. I think we're at the end. I don't know if anybody was interested in this but we somehow managed two. We ran the Gamut A to our podcast out of nothing. Yeah it was great and it's it's not about whales and Patriot so check out our patriot dot com slash comics like in review us on itunes and subscribe to our our Youtube Channel YouTube dot com slash narcotics and facebook and instagram follows there and that would be much appreciated yeah. Check it all out so I talked doc this week I had been Chris Jerry and uh-huh Yeah